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NEW SOUTH WALES.
OFFICIAL RECORD OF THE DEBATES
OF TIE
AUSTRALASIAN FEDERAL
CONVENTION.
SECOND SESSION.
SYDNEY, 2nd to 24th SEPTEMBER, 1897.
493 01
Sydney:
WILLIAM APPLEGATE GULLICK, GOVERNMENT PRINTER, PHILLIP-STREET.
1897
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CONTENTS.
PAGE
V
Representatives from Colonies...
...
Representatives : Alphabetical List
vi
Index to Subjects...
vii
1
Index to Speeches
xis
Debates
.
1
ved at -25-35
313971
AUSTRALASIAN FEDERAL CONVENTION.
REPRESENTATIVES FROM COLONIES.
Aew Sonth Wales.
The Honorable Edmund Barton, Q.C., M.L.C. The Honorable James Nixon Brunker, M.L.A.
The Right Honorable George Houstoun Reid,
(Colonial Secretary).
P.C., M.L.A. (Premier).
The Honorable Richard Edward O'Connor,
The Honorable Joseph Hector Carruthers,
Q.C., M.L.C.
M.L.A. (Secretary for Lands).
The Honorable Sir Joseph Palmer Abbott,
K.C.M.G. (Speaker, Legislative Assembly).
William McMillan, Esquire, M.L. A.
James Thomas Walker, Esquire.
William John Lyne, Esquire, M.L. A.
Bernhard Ringrose Wise, Esquire.
South Australia.
The Right Honorable Charles Cameron Kingston, The Honorable John Hannah Gordon; M.L.C.
P.C., Q.C., M.H.A. (Premier).
Josiah Henry Symon, Esquire, Q:C.
The Honorable Frederick William Holder, The Honorable Sir John William Downer, Q.C.,
M.H.A. (Treasurer).
K.C.M.G., M.H.A.
The Honorable John Alexander Cockburn, M.D., Patrick McMahon Glynn, Esquire, B.A., LL.B.,
M.H.A. (Minister of Education).
M.H.A.
The Honorable Sir Richard Chaffey. Baker; The Honorable James Henderson Howe, M.L.C.
K.C.M.G. (President, Legislative Council). Vaiben Louis Solomon, Esquire, M.H.A.
Tasmania.
The Honorable Sir Philip Oakley Fysh, K.C.M.G., The Honorable Charles Henry Grant, M.L.C.
M.H.A. (Treasurer).
The Honorable Adye Douglas (President, Legis-
The Right Hon. Sir Edward Nicholas Coventry lative Council).
Braddon, P.C., K.C.M.G.,M.H.A.(Premier).
The Honorable William Moore, M.L.C. (Chief
The Honorable Henry Dobson, M.H.A.
Secretary).
The Honorable Neil Elliott Lewis, M.H. A.
The Honorable Nicholas John Brown, M.H.A.
Matthew John Clarke, Esquire, M.H.A.
(Speaker, House of Assembly).
The Honorable John Henry, M:H. A.
Oictoria.
The Right Honorable Sir George Turner, P.C., William Arthur Trenwith, Esquire, M.L.A.
K.C.M.G., M.L.A. (Premier).
The Honorable Sir Graham Berry, K.C.M.G.
John Quick, Esquire, LL.D.
(Speaker, Legislative Assembly).
The Honorable Alfred Deakin, M.L.A.
The Honorable Alexander James Peacock, M.L.A.
The Honorable Simon Fraser, M.L.C.
(Chief Secretary).
The Honorable Sir William Austin Zeal,
The Honorable Isaac Alfred Isaacs, M.L.A.
K.C.M.G. (President, Legislative Council).
(Attorney-General).
Henry Bournes Higgins, Esquire, M.L.A.
detesterit Australia.
The Right Honorable Sir John Forrest, P.C., Albert Young Hassell, Esquire, M.L.A.
K.O.M.G., M.L.A. (Premier).
Robert Frederick Sholl, Esquire, M.L.A.*.
The Honorable Sir James George Lee-Steere,
The Honorable John Howard Taylor, M.L.C.*
Knight (Speaker, Legislative Assembly).
George Leake, Esquire, M.L.A.
The Honorable Henry Briggs, M.L.C.+
The Honorable Frederick Henry Piesse, M. L. A.*
The Honorable Frederick Thomas Crowder,
(Commissioner of Railways).
M.L.C.+
The Honorable John Winthrop Hackett, M.L.C.
The Honorable Andrew Harriot Henning,
William Thorley Loton, Esquire, M.L. A.*
M.L.C.t
Walter Hartwell James, Esquire, M.L. A. The Honorable Harry Whittal Venn, M.L.C.t
* Resigned, 26th August, 1897.
† From 26th August, 1897.
AUSTRALASIAN FEDERAL CONVENTION.
MEMBERS: ALPHABETICAL LIST.
President:
The Right Honorable CHARLES CAMERON KINGSTOY, P.C., Q.C., M.P., Premier, South Australia.
Chairmair of Committees :
The Honorable Sir RICHARD CITATFLY BAKER, K.C.M.G., President of the Legislative Council,
South Australia.
Members of the Conventioir.
1. Abbott, The Honorable Sir Joseph Palmer, 26. Henry, The Honorable John, M.P.
K.C.M.G., M.P.
27. Higgins, Henry Bournes, Esquire, M.P.
2. Baker, The Honorable Sir Richard Chaffey, 28. Holder, The Honorable Frederick William,
K.C.M.G., M.P.
M.P.
3. Barton, The Honorable Edmund, Q.C., M.P. 29. Howe, The Honorable James Henderson,
4. Berry, The Honorable Sir Graham,
M.L.C.
K.O.M.G., M.P.
30. Isaacs, The Honorable Isaac Alfred, M.P.
5. Braddon, The Right Honorable Sir Edward 31. James, Walter Hartwell, Esquire, M.P.
Nicholas Coventry, P.O., K.C.M.G., M.P. 32. Kingston, The Right Honorable Charles
6. Briggs, The Honorable Henry, M.P.+
Cameron, P.C., Q.C., M.P.
7. Brown, The Honorable Nicholas John, 33. Leake, George, Esquire, M.P.
M.P.:
34. Lee-Steere, The-Honorable Sir James George,
8. Brunker, The Honorable James Nixon, M.P. Knight, M.P.
: 9. Carruthers, The Honorable Joseph Hector, 35. Lewis, The Honorable Neil Elliott, M.P.
M.P.
Loton, William Thorley, Esquire, M.P.
10. Clarke, Matthew John, Esquire, M.P. 36. Lyne, William John, Esquire, M.P.
11. Cockburn, The Honorable John Alexander, 37. McMillan, William, Esquire, M.P.
M.D., M.P.
38. Moore, The Honorable William, M.P.
12. Crowder, The Honorable Frederick Thomas, 39. O'Connor, The Honorable Richard Edward,
M.P.t
Q.C., M.P.
13. Deakin, The Honorable Alfred, M.P.
40. Peacock, The Honorable Alexander James,
14. Dobson, The Honorable Henry, M.P.
M.P.
15. Douglas, The Honorable Adye, M.P.
Piesse, The Honorable Frederick Henry,
16. Downer, The Honorable Sir John Williain,
M.P.*
Q.C., K.C.M.G., M.P.
41. Quick, John, Esquire, LL. D.
17. Fraser, The Honorable Simon, M.P.
42. Reid, The Riglit Honorable George Houstoun,
18. . Forrest, The Right Honorable Sir John, P.C., M.P.
P.C., K.C.M.G., M.P.
Sholl, Robert Frederick, Esquire, M.P.*
19. Fysh, The Honorable Sir Philip Oakley, 43. Solomon, Vaiben Louis, Esquire, M. P.
K.C.M.G., M.P.
44. Symon, Josiah Henry, Esquire, Q.C.
20. Glynn, Patrick McMahon, Esquire, B.A., Taylor, The Honorable John Howard, M.P.*
LL.B., M.P.
45. Trenwith, William Arthur, Esquire, M.P.
21. Gordon, The Honorable Jolin Hannah, 46. Turner, The Right Honorable Sir George,
M.P.
P.O., K.C.M.G., M.P.
22. Grant, The Honorable Charles Henry, M.P. 47. Venn, The Honorable HarryWhittal, Esquire,
23. Hackett, The Honorable John Winthrop,
M.P.t
M.P.
48. Walker, James Thomas, Esquire.
24. Hassell, Albert Young, Esquire, M.P. 49. Wise, Bernhard Ripgrose, Esquire.
25. Henning, The Honorable Andrew Harriot, 50. Zeal, The Honorable Sir William Austin,
M.P.1
K.C.M.G., M.P.
t
Clerk:
E. G. BLACKMORE, Esquire, Clerk of the Legislative Council and Clerk of the Parliaments,
South Australia.
* Resigned, 26th August, 1997.
† From 26th August, 1997.
INDEX TO DEBATES
OF THE
AUSTRALASIAN FEDERAL CONVENTION.
2nd to 24th September, 1897.
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
ABSENCE, LEAVE OF :
: Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That leave of
absence be granted to Mr. George Leake,
on account of urgent private affairs, agreed
to, 155.
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF HOSPITALITY : OFFICERS:
OF THE CONVENTION :
Observations by the Hon. Sir Richard Baker,
1092; the Hon. Sir Philip Fysh, the Hon.
A. Deakin, the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest,
1093; the Hon. J. N. Brunker, the Hon.
Sir Joseph Abbott, 1094.
ADJOURNMENT :
Observations respecting, the Hon. E. Barton,
3, 94, 1091, 1107, 1109; the Hon. A. Deakin,
94, 1108; the Hon. F. W. Holder, 1091 ; the
Right Hon. Sir John Torrest, 1108 ; the
Hon. J. N. Brunker, 1109; the Right Hon.
Sir E. Braddon, 1109; the Hon. Sir Richard
Baker, 1109; the President, 1110.
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN:
Her Majesty the Queen's reply to the Con-
vention's address of loyalty and congratu-
lations; motion by the Hon. E. Barton :
that the reply be recorded upon the pro-
ceedings of the Convention, agreed to, 1.
AMENDMENTS :
Observations respecting by the Hon. Sir James
Lee-Steere, the Hon. E. Barton, 223.
AMENDMENTS OF LEGISLATURES :
Amendments suggested by the various legisla-
tures in the draft constitution, presented,
2, 4.
BROWN, THE HON. N. J. :
Personal explanation as to paragraph in Sydney
NIorning Herald, 4.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Preliminary Provisions.
In Committee :
Clause 1 (Short title), 224. Amendment by
Council, New South Wales, to omit “
inonwealth” and insert "dominion," 224 ;
negatived, 225. Amendment by Hon. E.
Barton omitting The Constitution of the
Cominonwealth of Australia," and inserting
"The Commonwealth of Australia Consti-
tution Act,” agreed to, 225. Clause, as
amended, agreed to, 225.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Clause 2 (Act to bind Crown), 225 ; agreed to,
227.
Clause 3 (Power to proclaim commonwealth of
Australia), 227. Amendment by Hon. R. E.
O'Connor, providing that the proclamation
must be issued within one year after the
passing of the act, agreed to, 228. Amend-
went by Council, New South Wales, to omit
“'federal," negatived, 228. Amendment by
Mr. Symon to omit “the commonwealth
of” negatived, 228. Clause, as amended,
agreed to, 228.
Clause 4 (Cominencement of act), 228. Amend-
ment by Council and Assembly, Tasmania,
omitting "unless it is otherwise expressed
or implied," 228; agreed to, 230. Āmend-
ment by Council and Assembly, New South
Wales, to omit “this act," agreed to, 230.
Amendment by Council and Assembly, Tas-
mania, to insert "the provisions of this act
relating to the constitution of the common-
wealth,” amended, on motion by Hon. E.
Barton, by omitting " the provisions of this
act relating to,”and agreed to, 230. Amend-
ment by Council and Assembly, Tasmania,
inserting “but the parliaments of the several
colonies may at any time after the passing
of this act make any such laws, to come into
operation on the day so appointed, as they
might have made if the constitution had
been established at the passing of this act,"
230 ; agreed to, 231. Clause, as amended,
agreed to, 231.
Clause 5 ("States”), 231. Amendment by
Council, New South Wales, defining "origi-
nal states” and “new states," 231 ; with-
drawn, 239. Clause postponed, 239; con-
sideration resumed, 986. Amendment sug-
gested by the Council of New South Wales :
Add at the end of clause " Original states
shall be taken to mean such states as forin
part of the dominion at the date of its
establishment. New states shall be taken
to mean such states as may thereafter be ad-
mitted into or constituted by the dominion.”
Amendment by Mr. Solomon : That there
be inserted after the word " Australia,"
com-
}
yiii
COM
COM
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Amendment by Assembly, South Australia,
to provide for dissolution of senate as well
as of house of representatives, 254. Clause
postponed, 256 ; agreed to, 987.
Clause 7 (Yearly session of parliament) agreed
to, 256.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
line 5, the words "including the northern
territory of South Australia," agreed to,
987. Amendment by the Hon. E. Barton :
that the amendment suggested by the Coun-
cil of New South Wales be amended by
omitting the words “new states shall be
taken to mean such states as may thereafter
be admitted into or constituted by the
dominion," agreed to, 987. Amendment of
the Councilof New South Wales, as amended,
agreed to, 987. Clause, as amended, agreed
to, 987.
Clause 6 (Repeal or 48 and 49 Victoria, chapter
60), agreed to, 239.
Clause 7 (Operation of the constitution and
laws of the commonwealth), 239. Amend-
ment by Council, New South Wales, omit-
ting "and all treaties made by the common-
wealth,” 239; agreed to, 240. Amendment
by the Right Hon. G. H. Reid to omit "and
the laws and treaties of the commonwealth
shall be in force on board of all British ships
whose last port of clearance or whose port
of destination is in the commonwealth,"240;
withdrawn, 252. Amendment by Council,
South Australia, to insert "in addition to
the laws of Great Britain,” 240 ; negatived,
253. Amendment by Council, Victoria,
omitting "and the laws and treaties of the
commonwealth shall be in force on board of
all British ships whose last port of clearance
or whose port of destination is in the com-
monwealth," negatived, 253. Amendment
by Council, New South Wales, omitting
sand treaties," agreed to, 253. Amend-
ments by Council, New South Wales, in-
serting " excepting her Majesty's ships and
vessels of war," inserting o first" instead
of “last” before “port of clearance,” in-
serting “and" instead of " or,”and insert.
ing are" instead of "is,” agreed to, 253.
Clause, as amended, agreed to, 253.
Clause 8 (Privileges, &c., of houses) agreed to,
256.
Part II.-The Senate.
Clause 9 (The Senate), 256.
Paragraph 1. Amendment by Council and
Assembly, New South Wales; to provide for
proportional representation, according to
population, of each state, but that no state
should have less than three senators, and
that the senate should consist of not less
than forty members, 258 ; negatived, 355.
Paragraph, as read, agreed to, 355.
Paragraph 2. Amendment by the Legislatures
of New South Wales, Victoria, South Aus-
tralia, Tasmania, and Western Australia
to omit the words “as one electorate,'
360 ; negatived, 391. Amendment by Mr.
McMillan, providing for the election of the
senators by the people of the senate as one
electorate until the parliament otherwise
determine, 373; agreed to, 390. Paragraph,
as amended, agreed to, 391.
Paragraph 3. Amendment by the Assembly
of Victoria, omitting the provision that the
names of the senators chosen for each state.
shall be certified by the Governor to the
Governor - General, 391 ; negatived, and
paragraph, as read, agreed to, 394.
Paragraph 4. Amendment by the Assembly
of Victoria, providing that the parliament.
shall have power to increase or diminish the
number of senators for each state, but ex-
cept in the case of new states, which after
the establishment of the commonwealth are
admitted upon other terms or conditions,
the equal representation of the several states
shall be maintained, 394 ; agreed to, 415 ;
paragraph, as amended, agreed to, 416.
Paragraph 5. Amendment by the Assembly
of South Australia that senators shall be
elected in all the federated states on the
basis of one adult one vote, 416; negatived
417. Amendment by the Council and As-
sembly of Tasmania omitting the proviso
that if any elector votes more than once he:
shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, 417 ;.
agreed to, 419. Amendment by the Assem-
bly of Victoria that no elector who has at
the establishment of the commonwealth, or
who afterwards acquires a right to vote at
elections for the more numerous house of
the parliament of the state, shall, whilst
the right continues, be prevented by any
law of the commonwealth from voting at
elections for senators, 419. ; negatived, and
clause, as amended, agreed to, 420.
Clauses 10 to 23 postponed, 420.
Clause 10, paragraph 1 (Mode of election of
senators), 987. Amendment suggested by
Council and Assembly of Tasmania : Omit
“the parliament of the commonwealth may
Chapter I.-The Parliament.
Part I.-General.
Clause 1 (Legislative powers), 253. Amend-
ments by Council, New South Wales, to
omit "federal,' to omit" representatives,"
and to insert i assembly," negatived, 253.
Clause, as read, agreed to, 253.
Clause 2 (Governor-General), 253; postponed,
254.
Clause 3 (Salary of Governor-General), 254.
Amendments by Council and Assembly,
South Australia, to reduce the salary from
£10,000 to £8,000 and £7,000, respectively,
negatived, 254. Amendment by Mr. Glynn,
to omit the salary of a governor-general
shall not be altered during his continuance
in office," negatived, 254. Clause, as read,
agreed to, 254.
Clauses 4 (Application of provisions relating
to governor-general) and 5 (Oath of allegi-
ance) agreed to, 254.
Clause 6 (Governor-General to fix time and
places for holding session of parliament.
Power of dissolution of house of representa-
tives. First session of parliament), 254.
COM
ix
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
Com
if any.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
secutive months of.” Insert thirty con-
secutive sitting days in."; negatived and
clause agreed to, 990.
Clause 20 (Vacancy in senate to be notified to
governor of state) agreed to, 991.
Clause 21. “Until the parliament otherwise
provides, any question respecting the quali-
fication of a senator, or a vacancy in the
senate, shall be determnined by the senate,
991. Amendment suggested by the Coun-
cil and Assembly, Tasmania : Line 4, after
"senate" insert
or any question of a dis-
puted election relating to the senate,” nega-
tived, and clause agreed to, 991.
Clause 22. “The presence of at least one-third
of the whole number of senators shall be
necessary to constitute a meeting of the
senate for the exercise of its powers,” 991.
Amendment. by Mr. Higgins to insert at the
beginning of the clause the words "until
the parliament otherwise decides,” agreed
to, and clause, as amended, agreed to, 992.
Clause 23 (Voting in senate) agreed to, 992.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
make laws prescribing a uniform manner of
choosing the senators. Subject to such laws,
Amendment suggested by Assem-
.bly of Victoria : After “prescribing” insert
- the times, places, and." Amendment sug-
gested by Council and Assembly of Tasmania
negatived, 987. Amendment suggested by
Assembly of Victoria agreed to, 988.
Paragraph 2. "Until such determination, and
unless the parliament of the commonwealth
otherwise provides, the laws in force in the
several states for the time-being, relating to
the following matters, namely." Anend-
ment suggested by Council and Assembly
of Tasmania : After." determination" omit
" and unless the parliament of the common-
wealth otherwise provides.” Amendment
agreed to, 988. Paragraph 2, as amended,
agreed to, 988. Clause, as amended, agreed
to, 989.
Clause 11 (Failure of a state to choose mem-
bers not to prevent business) agreed to,
989.
Clause 12 (Issue of writs) agreed to, 989.
Clause 13 (Retirement of members) agreed to,
989.
Clause 14. “If the place of a senator becomes
vacant before the expiration of his term of
service the houses of parliament of the state
he represented shall, sitting and voting
together, choose a person to fill the vacancy
until the expiration of the term or until the
election of. â successor as hereinafter pro-
vided whichever first happens. And if the
houses of parliament of the state are in
recess at the time when the vacancy occurs
the governor of the state, with the advice
of the executive council thereof; may ap-
point a person to fill the vacancy until the
beginning of the next session of the parlia-
ment of the state or until the election of a
successor, whichever first happens:" Amend-
ment suggested by the Council and Assembly
of Tasmania : that after the word “until,
line 13, the words. the expiration of four-
teen days after” be inserted, agreed to, 989.
Clause, as amended, agreed to, 989.
Clause 15. “The qualifications of a senator
shall be those of a member of the house of re-
presentatives," 989. Amendment suggested
by the Council of Victoria, to add at the end
of clause “ with the exception that he must
be of the full age of 30 years," negatived by
29 to 4, 990. Clause agreed to, 990.
Clause 16 (Election of president of the senate)
agreed to, 990.
Clause 17 (Absence of: president provided for)
agreed to, 990
Clause 18 (Resignation of place. in senate)
agreed to, 990.
Clause 19. “ The place of a senator shall be-
come vacant if for two consecutive months
of any session of the parliament he, without
the permission of the senate, entered on its
journals, fails to attend the senate," 990.
Amendment suggested by Assembly of: Tas-
mania : After "for,” line 2, omit "two con-
Part III.-The House of Representatives.
Clause 24 (Constitution of house of representa-
tives), 420.
Paragraph 1. Amendment by the Council and
Assembly of Western Australia, providing
for the house of representatives to be com-
posed of members subject to the provisions
of sub - section 3, 420 ; negatived; 420.
Amendment by the Assemblies of Victoria
and New. South Wales, to omit the provision
that, as nearly as practicable, there shall be
two members of the house of representatives
for every one member of the senate, 420 ;
negatived, 452. Paragraph, as read, agreed
to, 452,
Paragraph 2. Amendment (verbal) by the
Hon. E. Barton, 452; agreed to, 453. Para-
graph, as amended, agreed to, and clause,
as amended, agreed to, 453.
Clause 25 (Provision for case of persons not
allowed to vote), 453. Amendment by the
Council and Assembly of New South Wales,
to omit the clause, 453. Clause agreed to,
454.
Clause 26 (Mode of calculating number of
members) agreed to, 454.
Clause 27 (Representatives in first parliament)
agreed to, 454.
Clause. 28 (Increase of number of house of
representatives) agreed to, 454.
Clause 29 (Electoral divisions), 454. Amend-
ment by the Assembly of Tasmania, omitting
the words “until the parliament otherwise
provides,” 454; negatived, 454. Amend-
ment by the Legislative Council and Legis-
lative Assembly of. Victoria, omitting the
proviso that until division each state shall
be one electorate, 454 ; negatived, 455.
Clause, as read, agreed to, 455.
Clause 30. (Qualification of electors), 455.
Amendment by the Legislature of Tasmania,
omitting."and if any elector votes more
than once he shall be guilty of:a misdemean-
our," 455; negatived; 455. Amendment by
X
COA
COM
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
the Assembly of New South Wales, adding
the provision that the parliament may not
enact that any elector shall have more than
one vote, 455 ; negatived, 457. Clause, as
read, agreed to, 457.
Clause 31 (Qualification of members of house
of representatives), 457.
Sub-clause 1. Amendment by the Council
and Assembly of Tasmania, providing that
no person shall be capable of being chosen,
or of sitting or acting, as a representative of
any state except he has been for three years
a resident of the state for which he is chosen;
the seat of any senator or representative
shall be declared vacant on his ceasing to be
a resident of that state, except during such
time as he may be a member of the executive
government, 458 ; negatived, 458. Sub-
clause, as read, agreed to, 458.
Sub-clause 2 agreed to. Clause, as read,
agreed to, 458.
Clause 32 (Members of states assembly ineli-
gible for house of representatives), 459 ;
postponed, 460; consideration resumed, 992.
Clause negatived on amendment suggested
by Council and Assembly of Tasmania,
993.
Clause 33 (Election of speaker of the house of
representatives) agreed to, 460.
Clause 34 (Absence of speaker provided for),
460.
Clause 35 (Resignation of place in house of
representatives), 460.
Clause 36(Vacancy by absence of member), 460.
Amendment by the Council and Assembly
of Tasmania, providing for vacancy by failure
of attendance, without permission, for thirty
consecutive sitting days, 460; amendment
negatived, and clause, as read, agreed to,
461.
Clause 37 (Issue of new writs) agreed to, 461.
Clause 38 (Quorum of house of representa-
tives) agreed to, 461.
Clause 39 (Voting in house of representatives),
461. Amendment by the Council and As-
sembly of Victoria, providing that in case of
a proposed amendment of the constitution
the speaker may vote notwithstanding the
votes are not equal, and in such case he
shall not have a casting vote, 461; nega-
tived, and clause, as read, agreed to, 463.
Clause 40 (Duration of house of representa-
tives), 463. Amendment by Assembly of
Western Australia, providing that every
house of representatives shall continue for
four instead of three years, 463 ; negatired,
and clause, as read, agreed to, 463.
Clause 41 (Writs for general election), 463.
Amendment by the Council and Assembly
of Tasmania, providing that the first writs
shall be issued within six months from the
date of the establishment of the common-
wealth, 463 ; negatived, and clause, as read,
agreed to, 463.
Clause 42 (Continuance of existing election
laws until the parliament otherwise pro-
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Clause 43 (Questions as to qualifications and
vacancies), 464. Amendment by the Council
and Assembly of. Tasmania providing that
any question of a disputed election relating
to a house of representatives shall be deter-
mined by that house, 464. Clause post-
poned, 466.
Consideration resumed, 993.
Amendment snggested by Council and As-
sembly of Tasmania, negatived : After “re-
presentatives" insert « or any question of
a disputed election relating to that house,'
and clause agreed to, 993.
Part IV.-Provisions relating to both houses.
Clauses 44 to 53 postponed, 467.
Clause 44. “Until the parliament otherwise
provides, each member, whether of the senate
or of the house of representatives, shall re-
ceive an allowance for his services of four
hundred pounds a year, to be reckoned from
the day on which he takes his seat," 993.
Amendment suggested by the Council of
South Australia and Council and Assembly
of Tasmania : Omit" four,” insert “ three,
negatived, 995; clause agreed to, 996. New
clause to follow clause 44 suggested by the
Council of South Australia : "No member of
the senate or house of representatives whilst
in receipt, out of the general revenue, of.
any official salary or annual sum shall be en-
titled to receive any such payment as afore-
said, except in so far as such payment may
exceed the amount of such official salary or
annual sum”, negatived, 996. New clause
suggested by the Council and Assembly of
Tasmania : "1444. A member of a house of the
parliament of a state shall be incapable of
sitting in either house of the parliamentof the
commonwealth,"negatived by 24 to 10, 1011.
New clause, suggested by the Council and
Assembly of Tasmania : "44B. A member of
either house of the parliament of the com-
monwealth shall be incapable of being chosen
or of sitting as a member of the other house
of the parliament” agreed to, 1011.
Clause 45. " Any person (I) who has taken an
oath or made a declaration or acknowledg-
ment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence,
to a foreign power, or has done any act
whereby he has become a subject or a citizen,
or entitled to the rights or privileges of a
subject or a citizen, of a foreign power ; or
(II) who is an undischarged bankrupt or in-
solvent, or a public defaulter; or (111) who
is attainted of treason, or convicted of felony
or of any infamous crime, shall be incapable
of being chosen or of sitting as a member of
the senate or of the house of representatives
until the disability is removed by a grant of
a discharge, or the expiration or remission
of the sentence, or a pardon, or release, or
otherwise," 1011. Amendment by Mr.
Glyno : that the words "until parliament
otherwise provides" be inserted at the begin-
ning of the clause, negatived by 26 to
8, 1015. Amendment suggested by the As-
sembly of New South Wales to omit para-
graph 2, negatived, 1019.
Clause agreed
vides) agreed to, 464.
to, 1022
COM
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
xi
COM
accept any office of profit under the Crown,
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL: COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Clause 46 (Place to become vacant on happen- Clause 51. "The senate and the house of repre-
ing of certain disqualifications) agreed to, sentatives may each of them from time to
1022.
time adopt standing rules and orders,” 1035.
Clause 47, paragraph 2. “Any person, being a
Amendment by the Hon. I. A. Isaacs : that
member of the senate or of the house of repre-
the word "standing” be omitted, agreed
sentatives, who, in the manner or to the ex-
to, and clause, as amended, agreed to,
tent forbidden in this section, undertakes,
1035.
executes, holds, enjoys, or continues to hold,
Part 1.-Power of the Parliament.
or cnjoy, any suchſagreement, shall there-
Clause 52.." The parliament shall, subject to
upon vacate his place," 1022. Amendment
by the Hon. E. Barton : That the following
the provisions of this constitution, have full
words be inserted after the word "
power and authority to make laws for the
agree-
ment,” paragraph 2 :-“from any part or
peace, order, and good government of the
commonwealth with respect to all or any of
share of it, or any benefit or emolument
the matters following, that is to say":-1035.
arising from it,” agreed to, and paragraph,
as amended, agreed to, 1022. Paragraph 3.
Amendment suggested by the Assembly of
Tasmania: to omit the words for the peace,
" But this section does not extend to any
order, and good government of the common-
agreement made, entered into or accepted by
wealth,” negatived, 1037. Amendment sug-
an incorporated company consisting of inore
than twenty persons, if the agreement is
gested by Assembly of Victoria : to add the
made, entered into, or accepted, for the
following words to sub-clause 1 providing
general benefit of the company."
for regulation of trade and commerce :-
Amnend-
• Provided that all fermented, distilled, or
ment by the Hon. I. A. Isaacs : That the
other intoxicating liquors or liquids trans-
word“ twenty,"paragraph 3, beomitted with
the view to insert“ tewnty-five," agreed to,
ported into any state or territory or remain-
ing therein for use, consumption, sale, or
1027. Amendment by Mr. Glynn : That the
following words be added to the clause :-
storage therein, shall upon arrival in such
state or territory be subject to the operation
"and the person holds less than one-twen-
tieth of the capital of the company," nega-
and effect of the laws of such state or terri-
tory to the same extent and in the same
tived by 26 to 7, 1028. Amendment by
Council of New South Wales to omit para-
manner as though such liquors or liquids had
been produced in such state or territory;"
graph 4 negatived, and clause, as amended,
agreed to by 28 to ll, 1059. Sub-clause
agreed to, 1028.
agreed to, 1065.
Clause 48. Paragraph I. "If a member of
Sub-clause 2. " Customs and excise and boun-
the senate or of tho house of representatives ties, but so that duties of customs and excise
and bounties shall be uniform throughout
not being one of the offices of state held
the commonwealth, and that no tax or duty
during the pleasure of the governor-general, shall be imposed on any goods exported from
and the holders of which are by this consti-
one state to another," 1065. Amendment
tution declared to be capable of being chosen suggested by the Council of New South
and of sitting as members of either house of Wales : To leave out the words " customs
the parliament, or accepts any pension pay. and excise and bounties, but," negatived,
able out of any of the revenues of the com- and sub-clause agreed to, 1068.
monwealth during the pleasure of the Crown,
Sub-clause 3. “Raising money by any other
his place shall thereupon become vacant, and
mode or system of taxation; but so that all
no person holding any such office, except as such taxation shall be uniform throughout
aforesaid, or holding or enjoying any such
the commonwealth,"1068. Amendment sug-
pension, shall be capable of being chosen or
gested by the Council of New South Wales :
of sitting as a member of either house of the
That sub-clause 3 be omitted, negatived,
parliament,” 1028. Amendment suggested
and sub-clause agreed to, 1068.
by the Assembly of Victoria : Line 3, after
“office,” insert 'except that of a justice of
Sub-clause 4. “Borrowing money on the pub-
the high court," negatived, 1029. Para-
lic credit of the commonwealth,” agreed to,
1068.
graph 2.
"Until the parliament otherwise
Sub-clause 5.
provides, no person, being a member, or
“ Postal, telegraphic, tele-
1068.
within six months of his ceasing to be a
phonic, and other like services,
mernber, shall be qualified or permitted to
Amendment suggested by Assembly of South
accept or hold any office the acceptance or
Australia : to add "outside the limits of
holding of which would, under this section,
the commonwealth,” negatived by 24 to 10,
render a person incapable of being chosen
and sub-clause agreed to, 1069.
or of sitting as a member," 1029. Amend-
Sub-clause 6. “Military and naval defence,”
ment suggested by the Legislative Council
agreed to, 1069.
of New South Wales : That paragraph 2 be
Sub-clause 8. “Navigation and shipping,”
omitted, agreed to by 19 to 10, 1034.
agreed to, 1069.
Sub-clause 9. “Ocean beacons and buoys, and
Clause 49. (Penalty for sitting when disquali-
ocean lighthouses and lightships, 1069.
fied), agreed to, 1034.
Amendment suggested by Assembly of Tas-
Clause 50. (Disputed elections), agreed to, mania: to omit ocean" wherever occurring,
1035.
negatived, and sub-clause agreed to, 1071.
xii
COM
COM
INDEX, TO: SUBJECTS::
or
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Sub-clause 10. " Astronomical and meteoro-
logical observations," agreed to, 1071.
Sab-clausell. “Quarantine," agreed to, 1073.
Sub-clause 12. “Fisheriesin Australian waters
beyond. territorial limits," 1073. Amend-
ment suggested by the Council of South
Australia : to add i and in rivers which flow
through or in two or more states," nega-
tived by 19.to 13, 1073, and sub-clause agreed
to, 1074..
Sub-clause 13. « Census and statistics,"
agreed to, 1074.
Sub-clause 14. “Currency, coinage; and legal
tender,” agreed to, 1074.
Sub-clause 15. “Banking, the incorporątion of
banks, and the issue of paper money,” 1074.
Amendment suggested by the Assembly of
New South Wales and the Council of Tas-
mania : to insert after "banking" the words
“excluding state banking not extending
beyond the limits of the state concerned,"
agreed to, and sub-clause, as amended,
agreed to, 1075.
Sub-clause 16. “Insurance, excluding state
insurance, not extending beyond the limits
of the state concerned," 1075. Amendment
suggested by the Council of New South
Wales : before "insurance ” first occurring
to insert "assurance and," negatived, 1076.
Amendment suggested by the Council of
New South Wales: to omit "excluding state
insurance not extending beyond the limits
of the state concerned,” negatived, 1076.
Sub-clause agreed to, 1076.
Sub-clause 17. “Weights and measures,'
agreed to, 1076.
Sub-clause 18.“ Bills of exchange and pro-
missory-notes," agreed to, 1076.
Sub-clause 19. "Bankruptcy and insol.
vency;" 1076. Amendment suggested by
the Council and Assembly of New South
Wales and Council of Tasmania : to insert
after “insolvency” "and lunacy,” nega-
tived; and sub-clause agreed to, 1077.
Sub-clause 20. “Copyrights, patents, and
trade-marks," agreed to, 1077.
Sub-clause 21. " Naturalisation and aliens,"
agreed to, 1077.
Sub-clause 22. “Foreign trading and finan-
cial corporations,” agreed to, 1077.
Sub-clause 23. Marriage and divorce,"
agreed to, 1082
Sub-clause 24. “Parental rights and the cus.
tody and guardianship of infants," 1082.
Amendment by the Hon. E. Barton : to
omit the figures. 24, and to insert the words
"and in relation thereto," agreed to,. 1085.
Sub-clause, as amended, agreed to, 1085.
Money Bills.
Clause 54 “Proposed laws having for their
main object the appropriation of any part of
the public revenue or inoneys, or the imposi-
tion of any taxor impost, shall originatein the
house of representatives,” 467. Amendment
by the Council and Assembly of New South
Wales, toomit the words “having for their
main object," 467; agreed.to, 469: Amend-
ment: (the Right Hon. G. H: Reid) omitting
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
the words." the appropriation of” and in-
serting the words appropriating,” 469 ;
agreed to, 476. Amendment by the Assem-
bly of Victoria omitting the words the
imposition of” and inserting the word “im-
posing,” 476 ; agreed to, 476. Amendment
by the Assembly of Tasmania : That a pro-
posed law which provides for the imposition
and appropriation of fines, or for the demand
or payment and appropriation of fees or
licenses, or for services, and does not other-
wise impose any tax or appropriate any part
of the public revenue, may originate in the
house of representatives or the senate, 476 ;
amendment amended verbally, 480 ; amend-
ment by Mr. Glynn to insert after the word
“services." the words " or as incidental to
its policy of salaries,” 480 ; negatived, 481;
amendment by the Hon. E. Barton inserting
after the word "revenue the words
moneys,” and omitting thie words " either in
the house of representatives or,” 481 ; agreed
to, 481.; amendment, as amended, agreed to,
481. Clause, as amended, agreed to, 481.
Clause.55 (Appropriation and tax bills), sub-
clausel. “The senate shall have equal power
with the house of representatives in respect
of all proposed laws, except laws.imposing
taxation and laws appropriating the neces-
sary supplies for the ordinary annual ser-
vices or government which the senatę may
affirm or reject, but may not amend. But
the senate may not ainend any proposed
law in such a manner as to increase any
proposed charge or burden on the people.
Amendment by the Council of Western Aus-
tralia, omitting "laws imposing taxation
and,” 481; negatived by 28 to 19, 537 ;
amendment by the Assembly of New South
Wales, omittivg " the necessary supplies
for the ordinary annual services of the go-
vernment,” and inserting "any part of the
public revenues or moneys,” 538; negatived,
538;. amendment by the Council of South
Australia, providing that the senate may not
amend any proposed law in such a manner
as to increase any proposed charge or burden
on the people, 538 ; negatived, 538 ;. sub-
clause 1, as read, agreed to, 538. Sub-
clauses 2 and 3 agreed to, 539. Amendment
by the Council and Assembly of Tasmania,
providing that the law which appropriates
the supplies for the ordinary annual ser-
vices of the Government shall deal only
with the appropriation of such supplies, 539;
agreed to, 540. Sub-clauses 4 and 5 agreed
to, 540. Clause, as amended, agreed to, 540.
Clause 56 (Recommendation of money votes)
agreed to, 541.
New clause by the Assembly of New Soutli
Wales: “57 (a.) If either house of parlia-
ment shall, in two consecutive sessions of
the same parliament, with an interval of at
least six weeks between, pass and transmit
to the other house for its concurrence there-
in any proposed law which such other house
fails to pass without amendment, within
thirty days after receiving the saine, in the
second session, or within such period passes,
COM
xiii
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
COM
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
with any amendment not agreed to by the
house transmitting the proposed law, the
provisions of the following sections of this
part shall apply. (6.) The proposed law
passed and transmitted in the second ses-
sion may include any amendment agreed to
by both houses in the first session. The
house in which the proposed law originated
may pass .a resolution that, in its opinion,
the proposed law is of an.urgent nature, and
may transmit the resolution and the pro-
posed law with any amendments agreed to
by both houses up to the time of transmis-
sion to the other house, with a request for
further consideration. If within thirty days
of the transmission of the proposed law as
last aforesaid, or if the session shall end
before the expiration of such period, then
within thirty days of the commencement of
the next session of the same parliament, the
other house shall not pass the proposed law
without amendment, or with such annend-
ment as the house transmitting the same
agrees to, the house in which the proposed
law originated may resolve that the same
be referred to the direct determination of the
people. If such last-mentioned resolution is
passed, a vote of the electors of the com-
monwealth as to whether the proposed law,
as last transmitted as aforesaid, shall or
shall not become law shall be taken, un-
less in the meantime the House to which
it has been transmitted has passed the same.
Such vote shall be taken in each state sepa-
rately, and if the proposed law is affirmed
by a majority of the population of the com-
monwealth, it shall be presented to the go-
vernor-general for the royal assent, as if it
had been duly passed by both houses of par-
liament, and on receiving the royal assent it
shall become law. If not affirmed as afore-
said the proposed law shall.not become law,
and shall not be again proposed for a period
of at least three years," 541--Amendment
by the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest to omit
the first word " If," 709; negatived by 30
to 15, 709. Amendment by Mr. Symon,
that after the first word, “If," in the pro-
posed new clause the following words.be in-
serted : “the senate reject or fail to pass
any proposed law which has passed the
house of representatives, or pass the same
with amendments with which the house of
representatives will not agree, and if the
governor-general should dissolve the house
of representatives and if, within six months
after the said dissolution the house of repre-
sentatives by an absolute majority again
pass the said proposed law in the same, or
substantially the same, form as before, and
with substantially the same objects, and the
senate again reject or fail to pass the said
proposed law, or pass the same with amend-
ments with which the house of representa-
tives will not agree, the governor-general
may dissolve the senate and the house of
representatives, and thereupon all the mem-
bers of both houses of the parliament shall
vacate their seats," 710; amendment, on the
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
amendment, by Mr. Walker, to omit the
words "and the house of representatives,
and thereupon all the members of both
houses of the parliament shall vacate their
seats," 711; withdrawn, 711; amendment
amended by Mr. Symon (by leave) omitting
the-words"and the house of representatives,
and thereupon all the members of both
houses of the parliament shall vacate their
seats ;" amendment, as amended, agreed to
by 27 to 22, 738; amendment by Mr. Lyne
to add to the words last agreed to: "If after
a dissolution of both houses of the federal
parliament as above provided, the subject-
matter of the contention that led to such
dual dissolution is again passed by the house
of representatives, and again rejected by
the senate, such ineasure shall be referred
to the electors of the commonwealth by
means of a national referendum, and, if re-
solved in the affirmative, shall become law,'
738; amendment on the amnendment by the
Right Hon. Sir George Turner to omit the
first word 'If” with the view of inserting the
words "provided that in lieu of dissolving
the house of representatives the proposed
law should be referred to the direct deter-
mination of the people, as hereinafter provi-
ded," 743 ; further amendment by Mr. Wise,
providing that in lieu of dissolving the house
of representatives alone in the first instance,
both houses of parliament may be dissolved
simultaneously, and if after such dissolution
the proposed law fails to pass with or without
amendment, the proposed law may be re-
ferred to the direct determination of the
people by a referendum, 758 ; proposed new
clause and all amendments suggested for
the prevention of deadlocks postponed, 778;
reconsidered, 807. Amendment by Mr.
(Vise proposed: That after the words house
of representatives," in the Right Hon. Sir
George Turner's amendment, the following
words be inserted :—"alone in the first in-
stance, both houses of parliament may be
dissolved simultaneously : Provided that
the senate shall not be dissolved within a
period of six months immediately preceding
the date of the expiry by effluxion of time of
the duration of the house of representatives.
And if aftersuch dissolution the proposedlaw
fails to pass with or without amendment,'
923. Mr. Wise's amendment agreed to by
25 to 20, 924. Questiou then proposed as
follows :—That the following words be in-
serted in lieu of the word = if”:-Pro-
vided that, in lieu of dissolving the house
of representatives alone in the first instance,
both houses of parliament may be dissolved
simultaneously, provided that the senate
shall not be dissolved within a period of six
months immediately preceding the date of
the expiry by effluxion of time of the dura-
tion of the bouse of representatives. And
if after such dissolution the proposed law
fails to pass with or without amendment the
proposed law may be referred to the direct
determination of the people as hereinafter
provided,” 924. Amendment by Mr. Lyne :
1
1
xiv
COM
COM
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
That the words "by a national referendum
to" be inserted after the word “referred, "
line 12, 926. Mr. Lyne's amendinent nega-
tived by 36 to 10, 928. Amendment by the
Right Hon. Sir George Turner : that the
words "by a dual referendum" be inserted
after the word "referred,” line 12, 928. The
Right Hon. Sir George Turner's amendment
negatived by 27 to 18, 930. Amendment by
Hon. J. H. Carruthers : that the words "to
the direct determination of the people as
hereinafter provided " be omitted with the
view to insert in lieu thereof the following
words :-" The members of the two houses
deliberating and voting together thereon,
and shall be adopted or rejected according
to the decision of a majority of three-fifths
of the members present and voting on the
question,” 930. Amendment by the Hon.
J. H. Howe: That the word "three-fifths"
be omitted with the view to insert the word
"two-thirds,” 931 ; negatived by 28 to 13,
974. Amendment by the Right Hon. C. C.
Kingston : That the word “the," at the be-
ginning of Hon. J. H. Carruthers' amend-
ment, be omitted with a view to insert-
ing the following words :-"A referendum
of the people of the commonwealth in the
case of national questions, and to a refer-
endum of the people of the commonwealth
and a referendum of the people of the states
when state interests are involved,” 967 ;
negatived by 30 to 11, 967. Hon. J. H. Carru-
thers' amendment agreed to by 29 to 12, 974.
Question—That the following words be in-
serted after the word "senate" (Mr. Symon's
amendment, line 18, page 933) :-“Provided
that in lieu of dissolving the house of repre-
sentatives alone, in the first instance, both
houses of parliament may be dissolved simul.
taneously : Provided that the senate shall
not be dissolved within a period of six
months immediately preceding the date of
the expiry by effluxion of time of the dura-
tion of the house of representatives. And
if after such dissolution the proposed law
fails to pass with or without amendment,
the proposed law may be referred to the
members of the two houses deliberating and
voting together thereon, and shall be adopted
or rejected according to the decision of three-
fifths of the members present and voting on
the question "Zagreed to by 23 to 13, 080.
Amendment by the Hon. J. H. Carruthers :
That the following words be added :-“Pro-
vided that if the proposed law be rejected,
it shall be lawful for a majority of those
present and voting to pass a resolution
praying the governor-general to refer the
proposed law to a general vote of the elec-
tors of the commonwealth, and, upon such
resolution being presented to the governor-
general, he may direct that such vote of the
clectors be forth with taken," negatived by
27 to 13, 980. Amendinent by the Hon. E.
Barton : " That the remaining words of the
proposed new clause 57A be struck out,"
agreed to, 980. New clause, as amended,
agreed to, 981.
COMMONIVEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Royal Assent.
Clause 57. “When a proposed law passed by the
houses of the parliament is presented to the
governor-general for the Queen's assent, he
shall declare, according to his discretion,
but subject to the provisions of this consti-
tution, either that he assents to it in the
Queen's name, or that he withholds assent,
or that he reserves the law for the Queen's
pleasure to be made known,” 779. Amend-
ment suggested by the Legislative Assembly
of Victoria : Line 5. After " constitution"
insert " and to her Majesty's instructions.'
Amendment negatived; clause agreed to,
779.
Clause 58 (Disallowance by Order in Council
of law assented to by governor-general)
agreed to, 779.
Clause 59. “A proposed law reserved for the
Queen's pleasure shall not have any force
unless and until within two years from the
day on which it was presented to the gover-
nor-general for the Queen's assent the gover-
nor-general makes known by speech or mes-
sage, to each of the houses of the parliament,
or by proclamation, that it has received the
assent of the Queen in Council. An entry of
every such speech, message, or proclamation
shall be made in the journals of each house,”
779. Amendinent suggested by the Assem-
bly of South Australia : Line 2, omit “not."
Amendment negatived, 782. Amendment
suggested by the Council of South Australia
negatived : Omit “two years," insert "o
year,” 782. Clause agreed to, 782.
one
exer-
Chapter II.-The Executive Government.
Clause 60. “The executive power and autho-
rity of the commonwealth is vested in the
Queen and shall be exercised by the governor-
general as the Queen's representative,” 782.
Amendment by the Right Hon. G. H. Reid :
That the words exercised” be omitted with
a view to the insertion of the word "
cisable,” agreed to, and clause, as amended,
agreed to, 782.
Clause 61. "There shall be a council to aid and
advise the governor-general in the govern-
ment of the commonwealth, and such couu-
cil shall be styled the federal executive
council ; and the persons who are to be
members of the council shall be from time
to time chosen and summoned by the gover-
nor-general and sworn as executive coun-
cillors, and shall hold office during his
pleasure,” 782. Amendment suggested by
the Legislative Council of South Australia :
After council,” line 1, insert " of six."
Amendment negatived, and clause agreed
to, 792.
Clause 62 (Application of provisions referring
to governor-general) agreed to, 792.
Clause 63. “For the adıninistration of the
executive government of the commonwealth,
the governor-general may, from time to time,
appoint officers to administer such depart-
ments of state of the commonwealth as the
COM
XV
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
Diy
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
Clause 70 (Powers under existing law to be
exercised by governor-general with advice
of executive council), 806. Amendment by
the Right Hon. G. H. Reid : That after the
words vest in the governor-general with
the words “or without” be inserted, and
that after the words “ federal executive
council" the words was the case requires "
be inserted, agreed to, 807. Clause, as
amended, agreed to, 807.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL:
governor-general in council may from time to
time establish, and such officers shall hold
office during the pleasure of the governor-
general, and shall be capable of being chosen
and of sitting as members of either house of
the parliament. Such officers shall be mem-
bers of the federal executive council, and
shall be the Queen's ministers of state for
the commonwealth. After the first general
election no minister of state shall hold office
for a longer period than three calendar
inonths unless he shall be or become a meni-
ber of one of the houses of the parliament,”
792. Amendment suggested by the Assem-
bly of South Australia : Omit “governor-
general may from time to time appoint,” line
3, with a view to insert “parliament may
elect." Amendment suggested by the Coun-
cil of South Australia : Omit first and
second paragraphs. Amendments nega-
tived, 793. Amendment suggested by the
Assembly of Tasmania : Omit the last
para-
graph; insert "every minister of state shall,
during his tenure of office, have the right of
entrance to and audience in both houses of
the parliament, but shall not be entitled to
vote in either house, unless he has been duly
elected a member thereof,” negatived by
21 to 14, 799 ; clause agreed to, 799.
Clause 64. - Until the Parliament otherwise
provides, the number of ministers of state
who inay sit in either house shall not exceed
seven, who shall hold such offices, and by
such designation, as the parliament from
time to time prescribes, or, in the absence
of provision, as the governor-general froni
time to time directs,” 799. Amendment
suggested by the Legislative Council of Vic-
toria : After " seven," line 4, insert “ of
whom two at least shall be members of the
senate," negatived by 19 to 13, 802. Amend-
ment by the Hon. H. Dobson : That the
following words be inserted after the word,
"sever," line 4, "of whom one shall be in the
senate when there are five ministers, two
shall be in the senate when there are more
than five ministers," negatived by 20 to 12,
S04 ; clause agreed to, 806.
Clause 65. “ Until the parliament otherwise
provides, there shall be payable to the Queen,
out of the consolidated revenue fund of
the commonwealth, for the salaries of such
officers, the sum of twelve thousand pounds
a year," 806. Amendment by the Hon. Dr.
Cockburn : That the words " the sum of,'
line 5, be omitted with the view to the in-
sertion in their place of the words,
not exceeding," agreed to, 806. Ainend-
ment suggested by the Council of Tasmania :
That the word "twelve" be omitted, nega-
tived, and clause, as amended, agreed to,
806.
Clauses 66 (Appointment of civil servants),
67 (Authority of executive), and 68 (Com-
mand of military and naval forces), agreed
to, 806.
Clause 69 (Immediate assumption of control of
certain departments) postponed, 806.
Chapter IV.-Finance and Trade.
Clause 88 (Uniform duties of customs), 35;
postponed, 222.
Remaining clauses of the bill and the schedule
postponed, 986.
Progress reported, 1091. Bill reconsidered in
Committee, 1101. Resolved on motion by
the Hon. E. Barton: that the Committee do
now agree to the suggested amendments of
the Drafting Committee, 1105. Progress re-
ported, and leave obtained to sit again on
the 20th January next, 1107.
CONFERENCE or COLONIAL PREMIERS :
Motion by Dr. Quick: That there be laid before
the Convention a copy of the report of the
late conference of Colonial Premiers with
the right hon. the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, agreed to, 1103.
CORRECTION OF SPEECHES :
Observations respecting by the Right Hon. Sir
John Forrest, the Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott,
Mr. Symon, 283.
DELEGATES, ELECTION OF:
Proclamation notifying election of Western
Australian delegates, read, 1.
DIVISIONS :
Appointment of Drafting Committee, 27.
COMMONWEALTH BILL (In Committee) :
Chapter I.-The Parliament.
Part I.-Gencral.
Clause 3 (Governor-General). Amendments by
Council and Assembly, South Australia
that the salary of the Governor-General be,
respectively, £8,000 and £7,000 (instead of
£10,000, as proposed)—negatived, 254.
Part II.-The Senate.
Clause 9 (The Senate). Paragraph 1. Amend-
ment by Council, New South Wales-to
omit the provision that the senate should
be.composed of “six senators for each state,'
with the view of providing that it should
consist of “mernbers representing the states
in proportion to their population”-nega-
tived, 355.
Paragraph 2. Amendment by Mr. McMillan
-making the paragraph read as follows :-
“ The senators shall be directly chosen by
the people of the state, and until Parlia-
ment otherwise determines, as one elector-
ate i-agreed to, 390, 391.
Paragraph 4. Amendment by Assembly, Vic-
toria-providing that, as regards the equal
representation of states in the senate, an
exception should be made in the case of
new states which after the establishment of
a suin
.Xvi
DIŅ
DIY
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
DIVISIONS ( continued):
the commonwealth are admitted thereto or
established thereby upon other terms and
conditions”-agreed to, 415.
Paragraph 5. Amendment by:A.ssembly, South
Australia-to provide that “The senators
shall be elected in all the federated States
on the basis of one adult one vote ”-nega-
tived, 417. Amendment by Council and
Assembly, Tasmania-omitting the words
sand if any elector votes more than once
he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour”
agreed to, 419.
Clause 15 (Qualifications of member). Amend-
ment by Council, Victoriato provide that
a senator “must be of the full age of 30
years”-negatived, 990.
Part III: The House of Representatives.
Clause 24 (Constitution of house of represen-
tatives). Amendment by Assembly, New
South Wales-to omit the words “as nearly
as practicable, there shall be two members
of the house of representatives for every one
member of the senate "-negatived, 452.
DIVISIONS ( continued):
or storage therein, shall, upon arrival in such
state or territory, be subject to the opera-
tion and effect of the laws of such state or
terr ory, to the same extent and in the same
manner as though such liquors or liquids
had been produced in such state or terri.
tory"-agreed to, 1058.
Sub-clause 5. Amendment by Assembly, South
Australia—to add words providing that the
power of the federal parliament to legislate
in regard to postal, telegraphic, telephonic,
and other like services, should be limited to
such services "outside the limits of the
commonwealth”-negatived, 1069.
Sub clause 12. Amendinent by Council, South
Australia-to.provide that the federal par-
liament, in acīdition to having power to
legislate in reference to "fisheries in Aus-
tralian waters beyond territorial lĩnits,"
should have power to legislate in regard to
fisheries “in rivers which flow through or
in two or more states"-negatived, 1073.
Clause 55 (Appropriation and tax bills).
Amendment by Council, Western Australia
to omit the exception as to laws imposing
taxation, sub-clause 1, so that the senate
should have equal power with the house of
representatives in regard to such laws-
negatived, 537.
New Clause (57A) (For prevention of dead-
locks), suggested by Assembly, New South
Wales, as follows :-“If either house of
parliament shall, in two consecutive sessions
of the same parliament, with an interval of
at least six weeks between, pass and trans-
mit to the other house for its concurrence
therein any proposed law which such other
house fails to pass without amendment,
within thirty days after receiving the same,
in the second session, or within such period
passes, with any amendment not agreed to
by the house transmitting the proposed law,
the provisions of the following sections of
this part shall apply.” Resolved that the
word* “ if” at the beginning of the para-
graph stand part of the clause, 709; amend-
ment by Mr. Symon-" That the following
words be inserted in the proposed new clause
after the word "if' in line 1:-The senate
reject or fail to pass.any proposed law which
has passed the house of representatives, or
pass the same with amendments with which
the house of representatives will not agree,
and if the governor-general should dissolve
the house of representatives, and if, within
six months after the said dissolution, the
house of representatives by an absolute ma-
jority again pass the said proposed law in
the same or substantially the same form
as before, and with substantially the same
objects, and the senate again reject or
'fail to pass the said proposed law or pass
the same with amendments with which the
house of representatives will not agree, the
governor-general may dissolve the senate"
agreed to, 738 ; amendment by Mr. Wise
on ainendment by the Right Hon. Sir George
Turner so as to make it read as follows :-
"Provided that, in lieu of dissolving the
Part IV.-Provisions relating to both houses.
New clause (44A). Proposed by Council and As-
sembly, Tasmania-"A meinber of a house
of the parliament of a state shall be
incapable
of sitting in either house of the parliament of
the commonwealth"-negatived, 1011.
Clause 45 (Disqualification of members).
Amendment by Mr. Glynn-to provide that
the disqualifications mentioned in the clause
should be in force “until parliament.other-
wise provides”-negatived, 1015.
Clause 47 (Disqualifying contractors and per-
sons interested in contracts). Paragraph 3
providing, as amended, that the disqualifi-
cation to be a member of either house should
not extend to a member of an incorporated
company, consisting of more than twenty-
five persons, an amendment by Mr. Glynn
-further providing that the member of the
...company in question must hold less than
one-twentieth of the capital of the.company
-was negativec, 1028.
Clause 48 (Place to become racant on accept-
ing office of profit). Paragraph 2. Amend-
ment by Council, New South Wales-to
omit the paragraph which provides that,
until the parliament otherwise determines,
:no member should, within six months of his
ing to be one, be qualified or permitted
to accept or hold any office the acceptance
or holding of which would, under this clause,
render a person incapable of being chosen
or sitting as a member-agreed to, 1034.
Part V:--Power's of the Parliament,
Clause 52 (Legislative powers of the parlia-
ment). Amendment by Assembly, Vic-
toria, adding to sub-clause 1 (the regula-
tion of trade and commerce), the following
words :-“Provided that all fermented, dis-
tilled, or other intoxicating liquors or liquids
transported into any state or territory or
remaining therein for use, consumption, sale,
!
DIY
xvii
INDEX TO SUBJECTS. -
HIG
DIVISIONS (continued):
house of representatives alone in the first
instance, both houses of parliament may
be dissolved simultaneously, provided that
the senate shall not be dissolved within a
period of six months immediately preced-
ing the date of the expiry by effluxion of
time of the duration of the house of repre.
sentatives. And if after such dissolution
the proposed law fails to pass with or with-
out amendment the proposed law may be
referred to the direct determination of the
people as hereinafter provided”-agreed to,
924; amendment by Mr. Lyne-to insert,
after “referred ” in the previous amend-
ment, the words "by a national referendum”
-negatived, 928 ; amendment by the Right
Hon. Sir George Turner-to insert, after
"referred,” the words "by a dual referen-
dum”-negatived, 930; amendment by the
Right Hon. C. C. Kingston—to provide for
“A referendum of the people of the common-
wealth in the case of national questions,
and a referendum of the people of the com-
monwealth and a referendum of the people
of the states when state interests are in-
volved ”-negatived, 967; amendment by
the Hon. J. H. Howeto omit “three-fifths"
and insert "two-thirds” in amendment by
the Hon. J. H. Carruthers-negatived, 974;
amendment by the Hon. J. H. Carruthers-
so as to make the last part of the amendment
by the Right Hon. Sir George Turner and Mr.
Wise read asfollows:--"and if, aftersuch dis-
solution, the proposed law fails to pass, with
orwithout amendment, the proposed-law may
be referred to the members of the two houses
deliberating and voting together thereon,
and shall be adopted or rejected according
to the decision of three-fifths of the mem-
bers present and voting on the question”
agreed to, 974; question—That the follow-
ing words be added to Mr. Symon's amend-
ment:"Provided that in lieu of dissolving
the house of representatives alone, in the
first instance, both houses of parliament unay
be dissolved simultaneously : Provided that
the senate shall not be dissolved within a
period of six months immediately preceding
the date of the expiry by effluxion of time
of the duration of the house of representa-
tives. And, if after such dissolution the
proposed law fails to pass with or without
amendment, the proposed law may be re-
ferred to the members of the two houses
deliberating and voting together thereon,
and shall be adopted or rejected according
to the decision of three-fifths of the mem-
bers present and voting on the question”.
resolved in the affirmative, 980.
Chapter II.-The Executive Government.
Clause 63 (Ministers of state). Amendment
by Assembly, Tasmania-to omit the words
“after the first general election no minister
of state shall hold office for a longer period
than three calendar months, unless he shall
be or become a member of one of the houses
of parliament," with a view to insert in lieu
thereof the words "every minister of state
DIVISIONS (continued) :
shall during his tenure of office have the right
of entrance to and audience in both houses
of the parliament, but shall not be entitled
to vote in either house unless he has been
duly elected a member thereof”-negatived,
799.
Clause 64 (Number of ministers). Amendment
by Council, Victoria—to provide that two
ministers at least should be members of the
senate negatived, 802; amendment by the
Hon. H. Dobson—to provide that if there
were fire ministers one should be in the
.senate, and if there were more than five
ministers two should be in the senate-
negatived, 804.
DRAFT CONSTITUTION :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That the con-
sideration in Committee of the draft consti-
tution together with the suggested amend:
ments forwarded by the various legislatures,
be an order of the day for Friday, Septem-
ber 3, agreed to, 2.
DRAFTING COMMITTEE :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton: That the Hon.
Sir John Downer, the Hon. R. E. O'Connor,
and the mover, be re-appointed a Drafting
Committee, debated by Mr. James (who
moved the addition of the names of the Pre-
sident, Mr. Symon, and the Hon. I. A.
Isaacs), the Hon. A. Douglas, the Hon. Sir
Kichard Baker, 22; the Right Hon. G. H.
Reid, the Hon. I. A. Isaacs, the Right Hon.
Sir E. Braddon, 23; the Hon. J. H. Howe,
the Hon. H. Dobson, 24 ; Mr. Symon, 25;
Mr. Clarke, 26; the Hon. J. H. Gordon ;
amendment negatived, motion agreed to, 28.
FINANCIAL CLAUSES OF DRAFT BILL:
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That Chapter
IV of the draft constitution be referred to a
select committee for consideration and re-
port, and that such committee consist of the
Right Hon. G. H. Reid, the Right Hon. Sir
George Turner, the Hon. F. W. Holder, the
Hon.
Sir Philip Fysh, and the Right Hon. Sir
John Forrest; debated by the Right Hon. Sir
George Turner, 5; the Hon. Sir Philip Fysh,
7; Mr. Symon, 9; the Hon. S. Fraser, 10; the
Right Hon. Sir George Turner, Mr. Walker,
ll; the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest, 12;
Mr. Glynn, 13; the Hon. E. Barton, Mr.
Trenwith, 13; Mr. McMillan, Mr. Lyne,
15; the Hon. Sir John Downer, 17; the
Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott, 18; the Hon. E.
Barton, in reply, 19 ; motion amended and
agreed to, 21.
FINANCE COMMITTEE :
Observations respecting by the Hon. E. Barton,
33; motion by Mr. McMillan : That the
minutes of the proceedings of the Finance
Committee appointed at Adelaide be printed;
observations by the Hon. E. Barton; motion
agreed to, 641 ; evidence of the Railway
Commissioners of New South Wales, Vic-
toria, and South Australia, taken before the
Finance Committeeatits sittings in Adelaide,
laid on the table, 932.
HIGGINS, MR. :
Personal explanation as to statements in news.
papers, 282.
7
xviii
QUE
HOU
INDEX TO SUBJECTS.
HOUR OF MEETIXG :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That unless
otherwise ordered, the Convention meet
daily at 10:30 a.m., Saturdays and Sundays
excepted, agreed to, 2.
INSTRUCTIONS TO COMMITTEE :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That it be an
instruction to the Committee of the Whole
on the Commonwealth Bill that they have
power to reconsider all clauses already con-
sidered before considering the clauses not
yet considered, and to accept the suggested
amendments of the Drafting Committee by
one resolution, and that the standing orders
be suspended to enable the Committee to do
so, 1094; debated by the Right Hon. Sir
John Forrest, 1095; Mr. Lyne, 1096 ; the
Hon. E. Barton, in reply, motion agreed to,
1097.
NEXT MEETING OF THE CONVENTION :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That the Con-
vention at its rising stand adjourned until
12 o'clock noon, on Thursday, the 20th
January, and that the sittings of the Con-
vention be then held in Parliament House,
Melbourne ; debated by the Right Hon. Sir
John Forrest, 985 ; motion agreed to, 986.
OFFICIAL RECORD OF DEBATES :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That an official
record of the debates of the Convention be
made by the Parliamentary Debates Staff of
New South Wales, agreed to, 2.
PAPERS PRESENTED :
Showing population and number of electors in
each electoral district for the Legislative
Assembly of New South Wales, 282. Re
financial and statistical facts relating to
Western Australia, 356. Report by Govern-
ment actuary of Western Australia upon the
Draft Constitution Bill, 356. Return show-
ing the population, revenue, and expenditure
of each of the Australian colonies and Tas-
mania during the last fivancial year, 641.
Relating to the cost of certain public works,
932. Evidence of Railway Commissioners
before the Finance Committee at Adelaide,
932. Plan showing the flood and low water
levels of the Darling and Murray rivers,
1091. Showiug estimated cost of properties
proposed to be transferred to the federal
government, 1092. Report from the Rail-
way Commissioners, 1092. Reply sent to
Queensland by direction of Convention, 1103.
PETITIONS :
From Presbyterians in the town of Orange, 4.
From the Moderator of the Presbyterian
Church in South Australia, 4.
From the Adelaide Ministerial Association, 33.
From the Australasian National League (in
South Australia), 33.
From the New South Wales Local Option
League, 155.
From the Australasian National League, 539.
From the Synod of the Church of England at
Adelaide, 641.
From the Grand Lodge of New South Wales
of the Independent Order of Good Templars,
1092.
PLAN:
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That the Clerk
be authorised to return to Mr. Glynn the
plan laid upon the table showing the levels
of the Murray and Darling rivers, agreed
to, 1103.
POPULATION AND ELECTORAL RETURNS :
Motion by Dr. Quick: That a return be laid on
the table showing the population and number
of electors in each electoral district for the
Legislative Assembly of New South Wales
and the Legislative Assembly of Victoria,
agreed to, 34 ; return laid on the table, 282.
PROCEDURE :
Observations respecting by the Right Hon. Sir
George Turner, 356; the Hon. Sir Richard
Baker, the Right Hon. G. H. Reid, 357,
360 ; Mr. Wise, 357; the Hon. Sir Richard
Baker, the Hon. R. E. O'Connor, the Hon.
Sir Joseph Abbott, the Hon. E. Barton, 358;
the President, 360.
QUEENSLAND, COMMUNICATION FROM :
Telegram received from the Acting-Premier
of Queensland submitting a request for the
consideration of the Convention to the effect
that in the opinion of the Legislative As-
sembly of Queensland the Acting Chief
Secretary should request the Convention
not to conclude its work until Queensland
had an opportunity of being represented at
the Convention by representatives directly
appointed by the electors of the colony.
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That the
communication received by the President
from the Aetiog-Premier of Queensland be
recorded on the minutes of this Convention,
and that the President be authorised to
acknowledge the saine, and to intimate in
reply that this Convention has received it
with gratification, and will give the request
which it conveys the best consideration;
observations by the Right Hon. Sir George
Turner, the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest,
the Right Hon. G. H. Reid, 774, the Hon. E.
Barton, 775; motion agreed to, 776; obser-
vations by the President, 807 ; Dr. Quick,
the Hon. E. Barton, the Hon. F. W. Holder,
1091. Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That
the Convention desires to express its.gratifi-
cation at the announcement contained in the
Hon. Sir Horace Tozer's communication, and
its fervent hopes that representatives of the
people of Queensland will take part in its
adjourned deliberations ; debated by the
Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott, 1097; the Right
Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Dr. Quick, 1099;
the Hon. Sir Jolin Downer, Mr. Walker,
1100; the Hon. J. N. Brunker, the Right
Hon. Sir John Forrest, 1101; the Hon. H.
Dobson, the Hon. E. Barton, in reply, 1102;
motion agreed to, 1103.
QUESTIONS :
Federation of the Railways-Afr. _Wise, 155.
Finance Committee-The Hon. J. H. Howe,
539.
Mayor of Sydney's Luncheon-The Right Hon.
Sir G. Turner, 223.
Night Sittings--- The Hon. Sir R. C. Baker, 222.
"Notes on Federal Finance"-M12. Higgins, 33.
Reports and Papers-Mr. Glynn, 3, 34,
t
RET
xix
INDEX TO SPEECHES..
BRA.
RETURNS : POPULATION, REVENUE, &c. :
Motion by Mr. Walker : That returns be pre-
pared and laid on the table showing popula-
ition of each colony on 30th June, 1897 ;
revenue from customs and excise for the year
ending 30th June, 1897 ; revenue received
during year ending 30th June, 1897, under
the other branches proposed to be trans-
ferred to the commonwealth ; expenditure
in each colony during year ending 30th
June, 1897, under each branch proposed
to be transferred to the commonwealth ;
and approximate value of properties to be
transferred to the commonwealth, agreed
to, 28.
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT :
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That the House
at its rising adjourn until the following day
at 2:30 p.m., agreed to, 1092.
STANDING ORDERS :
Observations respecting by the President, 1.
STANDING ORDERS, SUSPENSION or:
Motion by the Hon. E. Barton : That so much
of the standing orders be suspended as will
enable certain motions to be made without
notice, agreed to, 2.
VICTORIAN DELEGATES :
Observations respecting absence of Hon. A.
Deakin, 2; the Hon. E. Barton, the Hon.
F. W. Holder, the President, 3.
INDEX TO SPEECHES.
ABBREVIATIONS :- adj., Motion of Adjournment; m., Motion ; olis., Observations;
p.o., Point of Order ; q., Question.
ABBOTT, Hon. Sir JOSEPH, K.C.M.G., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 225.
Executive Government, S03.
Parliament.(House of Representatives), 451;
(Deadlocks), 508, 733.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1098.
Finance Committee, m., 18.
Officers of the Convention, obs., 1094.
Procedure, obs., 358.
Proofs of Reports of Speeches, obs., 283.
BARTON, Hon. E., Q.C., M.L.C. (continued) :
970, 977, 980, 982, 984, 1106; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1036, 1045, 1053, 1060, 1064,
1065, 1067, 1068, 1071, 1074, 1076, 1083,
1085, 1088, 1089; (Royal Assent), 779.
Procedure, 31, 32.
Reprint of Bill, 1107.
Adjournment of Convention, obs., 1107, 1110.
Amendinents : Notice Paper, obs., 223.
Communication from Queensland, m., 774, 775;
arl.j., 1091 ; mn., 1097, 1102.
Drafting Committee, m., 21, 27.
Finance Committee, cdj., 3 ; m., 5, 10, 13, 19;
obs., 33, 538, 611.
Instruction to Committee, m., 1095, 1097.
Mayor of Sydney's Luncheon, obs., 223.
Night Sittings, obs., 94; 9., 222.
Procedure, os., 358, 538.
Report on Finance Matters, 4., 34.
Special Adjournment, m., 1092.
Suggested Amendments, obs., 2.
Third Session of tbe Convention, mn., 985.
Victorian Representatives, obs., 3.
BAKER, Hon. Sir R. C., K.C.M.G., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 782, 792.
Acknowledgment of Hospitality, obs., 1093.
Adjournient of the Convention, obs., 1109.
Drafting Committee, 177., 22. .
Night Sittings, q., 222.
Oficers of the Convention, obs., 1093.
Procedure, obs., 357, 358, 538.
BERRY, Hon. Sir GRAHAM, K.C.M.G., M.L. A.:
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate), 341.
BARTON, Hon. E., Q.C., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill, m., 2, 28, 29.
Amendments of Drafting Committee, 1104.
Constitution of Commonwealth, 224, 226, 229,
231, 232, 234, 238, 239, 249, 253.
Executive Government, 794, 795, 800, 805, 806.
Finance and Trade, 34, 201, 221.
Parliament (General), 253, 255, 987; (Senate),
257, 252, 339, 344, 355, 360, 377, 392, 406,
416, 417, 420, 991, 993, 988, 1105; (House
of Representatives), 422, 452, 454, 455, 457,
458, 59, 460, 461, 462, 463, 465, 466, 467 ;
(Provisions relating to both Houses), 467,
996, 1007, 1012, 1018, 1020, 1022, 1028,
1029, 1034; (Money Bills), 467, 468, 474,
475, 478, 481, 529, 540 ; (Deadlocks), 619,
709, 712, 748, 770, 775, 778, 903, 929, 932,
BRADDON, Right Hon. Sir E. N. C., P.C.,
K.C.M.G., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (General), 256 ; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1056, 1073; (Provisions relating to
both Houses), 996 ; (Money Bills), 506 ;
(Deadlocks), 680.
Adjournment of the Convention, obs., 1109.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1099,
Drafting Committee, 1., 23.
XX
BRO
FYS
INDEX TO S'PEECHES.
BROWN, Hon. N. J., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 801,
Parliament (Senate), 364 ; (House of Repre.
sentatives), 454, 464 ; (Deadlocks), 554, 896 ;
(Powers of the Parliament), 1069.
Procedure, 31.
Personal Explanation, 4.
DOUGLAS, Hon. A., M.L.C.:
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 801.
Parliament (Provisions relating to both
Houses), 1010, 1015; (Money Bills), 508 ;
(Deadlocks), 736; (Powers of the Parlia-
ment), 1070.
Drafting Committee, m., 22.
BRUNKER, Fion. J. N., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Morey Bills), 469.
Acknowledgment of Hospitality, obs., 1094.
Adjournment of the Convention, obs., 1109.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1101, .
DOWNER, Hon. Sir J. W., Q.C., K.C.M.G.,
M.H.A.:
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 242.
Finance and Trade, 104, 221.
Parliament (General), 256 ; (Senate), 267, 371,
393, 415, 418; (House of Representatives),
449 ; (Provisions relating to both Houses),
1003, 1025; (Money Bills), 470, 475, 492;
(Deadlocks), 556, 597, 701, 737, 763, 846,
927, 968 ; (Powers of the Parliament), 1081,
1084.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1100.
Finance Committee, m., 17.
CARRUTIERS, Hon. J. H., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 791.
Parliament (Senate), 270; (House of Repre-
sentatives), 438, 453, 455, 461; (Money
Bills); 476, 512; (Deadlocks), 541, 856,
939, 971, 975, 980, 1015; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1046, 1074, 1076, 1082, 1085.
CLARKE, Mr. M. J., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill:
Parliament (Senate), 367, 411; (House of Re-
presentatives), 410; (Money Bills), 511 ;
(Deadlocks), 670.
Drafting Committee, m., 26.
COCKBURN, Hon. J. A., M.D., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 232, 250.
Executive Government, 791.
Parliament (Senate), 379, 387, 395,414; (Pro-
visions relating to both Houses), 999; (Dead-
locks), 672; (Money Biljs), 536, 780, 927,
924; (Royal Assent), 949, 975; (Powers of
the Parliament), 1059, 1063, 1070.
* Procedure, 31, 32.
FORREST, Right Hon. Sir J., P.C., K.C.M.G.,
M.L.A. :
Cominonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of the Commonwealth, 233, 239.
Executive Government, 795, sol, S04, 805.
Finance and Trade, 37, 106.
Parliament (Senate), 345, 361, 399, 992 ;
(House of Representatives), 420, 456, 463;
(Provisions relating to both Houses), 993,
996, 1009, 1021, 1030 ; (Money Bills), 481,
510; (Deadlocks), 608, 708, 716, 771, 852,
928, 958, 970, 976; (Powers of the Parlia-
ment), 1068, 1074.
Acknowledgment of Hospitality, obs., 1094.
Adjournment of the Convention, obs., 1108.
Communication from Queensland, m., 774, 1101,
Finance Committee, m., 12.
Instruction to Committee, m., 1096.
Notice of Amendinents, obs., 4.
Proofs of Reports of Speeches, obs., 283.
Representatives, Election of, obs., 1.
Suggested Amendments, obs., 2.
Third Session of the Convention, 21., 985.
DEAKIN, Hon. A., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 226.
Finance and Trade, 46.
Parliament (Senate), 330; (Powers of Parlia-
ment), 1037, 1041; (Deadlocks), 581, 711,
817, 972, 1106.
Reprint of Bill, 1107.
Acknowledgment of Hospitality, obs., 1093.
Adjournment of the Convention, obs., 1108.
Finance Committee, q., 538
Night Sittings, obs., 94, 222.
Victorian Representatives, obs., 2.
DOBSON, Hon. H., M.H. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 243.
Executive Government, 797, 802.
Tinance and Trade, 184.
Parliament (Provisions relating to both
Houses), 992, 1000, 1017; (Money Bills),
472, 476, 517; (Deadlocks), 635 ; (Powers
of the Parliament), 1051.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1102.
Drafting Committee, m., 24.
FRASER, Hon. S., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate), 363, 411 ; (House of Re-
presentatives), 456 ; (Provisions relating to
both Houses), 993, 998, 1014, 1023, 1026,
1028, 1033 ; (Money Bills), 473, 526; (Dead.
locks), 565, 714, 731, 849 ; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1052, 1060.
Tinance Coinmittee, m., 10.
FYSE, Hon. Sir P. O., K.C.M.G., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 230.
Executive Government, 793.
Finance and Trade, 37, 87.
Parliament (Senate), 417; (House of Represen-
tatives), 458, 459, 460, 464; (Money Bills),
468,487, 538, 971.
Acknowledgment of Hospitailty, obs., 1093.
Finance Committee, m., 7.
Suggested Amendments, Tasmania, obs., 2.
GLY
xxi
INDEX TO SPEECIIES.
McM
:
GLYNN, Mr. P. M., B.A., LL.B., M.H. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 225, 246.
Executive Government, 794, 795.
Finance and Trade, 175.
Parliament (General), 254, 988, 989 ; (Senate),
276, 382, 387, 404, 990; (House of Repre-
sentatives), 445; (Provisions relating to both
Houses), 995, 1011, 1013, 1022, 1027, 1031;
(Money Bills), 471, 480, 534; (Deadlocks),
691, 727, 912, 961; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1050, 1075, 1077, 1082; (Royal
Assent), 781.
Federal Finance, I.,
34.
Finance Committee, m., 13.
Reports and Papers, obs., 3.
GORDON, Hon. J. H., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 218.
Parliament (Senate), 395, 396, 993; (Provi-
sions relating to both Houses), 999, 1007,
1029, 1030; (Money Bills), 476, 480, 570,
(Deadlocks), 865, 933; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1073, 1076, 1085, 1089; (Royal
Assent), 779.
Drafting Committee, m., 27.
Mayor of Sydney's Luncheon, obs., 223.
GRANT, Hon. C. H., M.L.C. :
Cominonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 802.
Parliament (Deadlocks), 705 ; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1075, 1079, 1083.
HACKETT, Hon. J. W., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 150.
Parliament (Money Bills), 515.
Suggested Amendments, obs., 2.
HENRY, Hon. J., M.H.A.:
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 65.
Parliament (Money Bills), 520 ; (Deadlocks),
733 ; (Powers of the Parliament), 1070.
HIGGINS, Mr. H. B., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
: Constitution of Commonwealth, 228 (2.0., 237).
Executive Government, 789.
Finance and Trade, 122.
Parliament (General), 255; (Senate), 259, 345,
369, 402, 991; (Money Bills), 470,522; (Dead-
locks), 682, 725, 889, 923, 928, 959, 971 ;
(Provisions relating to both Houses), 996,
1001, 1020, 1026, 1031 ; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1063, 1076.
Personal Explanation, 282.
Report on Financial Matters, 9., 33.
HOLDER, Hon. F. W., M.H.A.
Cominonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 793, 795.
Finance and Trade, 36, 72.
Parliament (Senate), 387, 416; (House of Re-
presentatives), 424, 467; (Deadlocks), 559,
760, 778, 897, 977 ; (Provisions relating to
both Houses), 1032; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1047.
Communication from Queensland, adj., 1092.
Order of Business, q., 538.
Victorian Representatives, obs., 3.
HOWE, Hon. J. H., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate) (p.0., 345), 381, 399, 413;
(Deadlocks), 611, 931, 967; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1082, 1085.
Drafting Committee, m., 24.
Finance Committee, 9., 539.
Third Session of the Convention, m., 986.
ISAACS, Hon. I. A., M. L. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 230, 233, 245.
Executive Government, 799, 800, 805.
Parliament (Senate), 303, 381, 391, 395, 419,
987, 989; (House of Representatives), 425,
457, 461, 463, 466, 992; (Deadlocks), 659,
712 (p.o., 760), 776, 861 (p.0., 917), 927, 928,
935 (p.0.,: 968); (Royal Assent), 779, 781 ;
(Provisions relating to both Houses), 994,
995, 1002, 1019, 1021, 1023, 1035 ; (Powers
of the Parliament), 1038, 1055, 1061, 1064,
1065, 1068, 1072, 1090.
Drafting Committee, m., 23.
JAMES, Mr. W. H., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 192.
Parliament (Money Bills), 522.
Drafting Committee, m., 21.
KINGSTON, Right Hon.C.C.,P.C., Q C., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 234, 236, 250.
Parliament (Senate), 283, 374, 387, 393 ;
(Money Bills), 473; (Deadlocks), 579, 697,
713, 736, 867 (p.o. 917), 930, 942, 973,- 1104,
1106 ; (Provisions relating to both Houses),
997, 1021, 1021, 1033; (Powers of the Parlia-
ment), 1058, 1073, 1087,
Vide PRESIDENT.
LEAKE, Mr. G., M.L.A.:
Cominonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate), 373,412;(Deadlocks), 615.
LEE-STEERE, Hon. Sir J. G., Knt., M.L. A. :
Amendments : Notice-paper, ob..., 223.
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 85.
LEWIS, Hon. N. E., M.H.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 231.
Parliament (Senate), 393, 419 (House of Re.
presentatives), 457, 459, 460, 464 ; (Powers
of the Parliament), 1037.
LYNE, Mr. W. J., M.L. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 95.
Parliament (Senate), 351, 356, 364, 385, 390,
405; (Deadlocks), 598, 738, 915 (2.0., 916),
917 (2.0., 922), 926, 929 (p.o., 931); (Powers
of the Parliament), 1056.
Finance Committee, m., 15; 9., 1096.
Instruction to Committee, m.,
1097.
MCMILLAN, Mr. W., M. L. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 38.
Parliament (Senate),368, 379, 394, 405 ; (House
of Representatives), 436 ; (Money Bills), 473;
(Deadlocks), 547, 551, 719, 777 (p.o., 809),
811, 956 ; (Powers of the Parliament), 1054.
Finance Committee, m., 15. .
:
с
xxii
ZEA
Moo
INDEX TO SPEECIIES.
MOORE, Hon. W., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Money Bills), 527;(Deadlocks),642.
Federal Finance, q., 34.
O'CONNOR, Hon. R. E., Q.C., M.L.C. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 225, 227, 244,
252.
Finance and Trade, 112.
Parliament (Senate), 379, 398 ; (House of Re-
presentatives), 429 ; (Deadlocks), 573, 729,
880 ; (Provisions relativg to both Houses),
1032 ; (Powers of the Parliament), 1039,
1062, 1071, 1077, 10S0.
Procedure, obs., 358.
PEACOCK, Hon. A. J., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate), 327.
PRESIDENT (Right Hon. C. C. Kingston, P.C.)
Adjournment of Convention, m., 1091.
Communication from Queensland, 807,
Correction of Speeches, 283.
Drafting Committee, 23.
Federation of the Railways, 155.
Financial clauses of Draft Bill, 11.
Notice of amendments, 4.
Personal explanation, 283.
Procedure, 360.
Standing Orders, 1.
QUICK, Dr. J., LL.D. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Senate), 343, 377, 414, 418, 1105;
(Deadlocks) (23.0., 541), 551 ; (Provisions re-
lating to both Houses), 1034; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1049.
Communication froin Queensland, m., 1100.
Conference of Colonial Premiers, m., 1104.
Population and Electoral Returns, m., 34.
REID, Right Hon. G. H., P.C., M.L.A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealtlı, 235, 239, 240,
251..
Executive Governmeut, 782, 798, 800, 806.
Finance and Trade, 35, 136, 982.
Parliament'(General), 253, 256; (Senate), 258,
366, 400; (House of Representatives), 443,
460; (Money Bills), 468, 475, 498 ; (Deacl-
locks), 648, 721, 727, 740 (p.o., 810), 833,
867, 92, 931, 965, 967 ; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1044, 1052, 1087.
Communication from Queensland, m., 774.
Drafting Committee, m., 23.
Federal Finance, q., 34.
Finance Committee, 9., 539.
Procedure, obs., 357, 360.
SOLOMON, Mr. V. L., M.H.A. :
Cominonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 239, 986.
Finance and Trade, 195.
Parliament (Deadlocks), 745 ; (Powers of the
Parliament), 1048, 1074.
SYMON, Mr. J. H., Q.C. :
Coinmonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 227, 232 (P.O.,
238), 247, 252
Executive Government, 797.
Finance and Trade, 143.
SYMON, Mr. J. H., R.C. (continued):
Parliament (Senate), 288, 383, 409, 983 (House
of Representatives), 456 ; (Money Bills), 469,
491 (Deadlocks) (p.o., 542), 589, 700, 707,
709, 721, 734 (p.o., 759), 767, 778 (p.O., 809),
827 (p.0., 916), 925, 929, 931, 952 (p.o., 975),
976, 977 (p.0., 979); (Provisions relating to
both Houses), 196, 1001 ; (Powers of the Par-
liament), 1057, 1061, 1083.
Short Title, 224.
Drafting Committee, m., 25.
Finance Committee, m., 9.
Hansard Reports, obs., 283.
TRENWITH, Mr. W. A., M.L. A. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Constitution of Commonwealth, 237.
Parliament (Senate), 343, 345, 388, 403 ;
(Deadlocks), 603, 766, 778, 946 (p.o., 978).
Finance Committee, m., 13.
TURNER, Right Hon. Sir G., P.C., K.C.M.G.,
M.L.A.:
Commonwealth of Australia Bill, m., 28.
Constitution of Commonwealth, 225, 227.
Finance and Trade, 36, 156, 217, 219, 220.
Parliament (General), 254 ; (Senate), 344 ;
(House of representatives), 420, 466, 992 ;
(Deadlocks) (p.o., 542), 629, 707, 710, 741,
(p.o., 758, 759), 771 (2.0., 809), 878 (p.0., 916),
923, 926, 927, 928, 931, 934, 967, 971, 975.
Procedure, 30.
Communication from Queensland, m., 774.
Federal Finance, 4., 34.
Finance Committee, m., 5, 11.
Mayor of Sydney's Luncheon, C., 223.
Procedure, os., 356.
Suggested Amendments : Victoria, m., 4.
Third Session of the Convention, obs., 984,.
:
:
VENN, Hon. H. W., M.L.C.
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Parliament (Deadlocks), 697.
WALKER, Mr. J. T. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 796.
Finance and Trade, 57.
Parliament (Deadlocks), 688, 711, 934 ;
(Powers of the Parliament), 1048.
Short Title, 224.
Communication from Queensland, m., 1100.
Finance Committee, m., 11.
IVISE, Mr. B. R. :
Commonwealth of Australia Bill :
Finance and Trade, 219.
Parliament (Senate), 314,366,393,418; (House
of Representatives), 428, 447, 459, 465 ;
(Money Bills), 514, 539 (Deadllocks), (p.o.,
542), 643, 755 (p.o. 757, 759), 874 (p.o. 916),
923, 929; (Provisions relating to both Houses),
1009, 1016; (Powers of the Parliament), 1078.
Federation of the Railways, I., 155.
Procedure, obs., 357.
ZEAL, Hon. Sir W. A., K.C.M..G., M.L.C. :
Coinmonwealth of Australia Bill :
Executive Government, 797, 799.
Parliament. (Senate), 345, 375; (House of
Representatives), 448, 464 ; (Deadlocks),
725; (Powers.of the Parliament), 1052.
)
OFFICIAL RECORD OF THE DEBATES
1
OT TIE
AUSTRALASIAN FEDERAL CONVENTION
(SECOND SESSION),
HLLD AT
Parliament House, Sydney, New South Wales.
THURSDAY, 2 SEPTEMBER, 1897. to present to her Majesty the Queen, at
Windsor Castle, on 7th July, tlie Conven-
Election of Delogates - Address to her Majesty the Queen
tion's address of loyalty and congratula-
- Standing Orders-Amendments of Legislatures --
tion, and that her Majesty had been
Suspension of Standing Orders-Hours of Meeting-
Official Record of Debates — Draft Constitution -- graciously pleased to accept the same, and
Victorian Delegates-Adjournment.
to make the following reply
I request you to convey to the members of
The delegates met in the Legislative As- the Federal Convention, the expression of the
sembly Chambers, Sydney, at 12 noon,
sincere gratification with which I receive this
pursuant to the adjournment of the Con-
assurance of their loyalty and devotion, and of
the warmth of their congratulations on the com-
vention on 5th May, 1897.
pletion of the sixtieth year of my reign. I have.
already made known to the Governor of South
The PRESIDENT took the chair.
Australia the deep interest with which I regard'
ELECTION OF DELEGATES.
the proceedings of the Convention ; but I am.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
glad to take this opportunity of offering again
my best wishes for the success of its deliberations..
(Western Australia) presented copies of the
Government Gazette of Western Australia [The delegates received her Majesty's:
notifying the election to the Convention of reply to the Convention's address standing
Henry Briggs, M.L.C., Frederick Thomas
in their places.]
Crowder, M.L.C., Harry Whittall Venn,
Motion (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
M.L.C., and Andrew Harriot Henning,
That her Majesty's reply to the loyal address,
M.L.C.
of this Convention be recorded upon its proceed-
The CLERK having read the proclama- ings.
tions notifying their election, the delegates
STANDING ORDERS.
signed the roll.
The PRESIDENT informed the Conven-
tion that, as its proceedings were guided
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY THE
QUEEN.
by the standing orders of the House of
The PRESIDENT informed the Convention Assembly of South Australia, he had caused
that, agreeably with its resolution at its copies of those orders to be supplied for
session in Adelaide, he had had the honor the information of delegates.
А.
2
Amendments of Legislatures. [2 SEPT., 1897.]
Victorian Delegates.
AMENDMENTS OF LEGISLATURES. SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS.
The PRESIDENT called upon the senior Motion (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
representatives of the different colonies That so much of the standing orders be sus-
represented to present the amendments pended as will enable certain motions to be
made without notice.
suggested by their respective legislatures
in the draft constitution for the consider-
HOURS OF MEETING.
ation of the Convention.
Motion (Hon. E. BARTOX) agreed to:
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South That, unless otherwisc ordered, this Conven-
Wales) : I present a schedule of the amend- tion do meet daily at 10.30 a.m., Saturdays and
ments in the draft constitution desired by
Sundays excepted.
the houses of legislature in New South
OFFICIAL RECORD OF DEBATES,
Wales, and I have the honor to move : Motion (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
That the amendments be printed.
That an official record of the debates of this
I submit these amendments, together with
Convention be made by the “ Parliamentary
Debates” Staff of New South Wales.
a copy of the bill, as required by the
statute.
DRAFT CONSTITUTION.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania): The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
I present a copy of the amendments desired Wales): I beg to move :
by the houses of legislature of Tasmania. That the consideration in the Coininittee of
The PRESIDENT: I have to make a
the Whole Convention of the draft constitution,
as passed prior to the adjournment of 5th May,
similar presentation on behalf of South
1897, together with the suggested amendments
Australia.
which have been forwarded by the various legis.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
latures, be an order of the day for to-morrow,
Friday, September 3rd.
(Western Australia): Under our enabling
I move this motion in order to have it
act it is provided that each House shall
nominate some member of the Convention placed as an order of the day on the notice-
paper. Of course I do so without pre-
to present its amendments Accordingly
judice to any steps that may be decided
I was nominated by the Legislative Assem-
upon before we meet again.
bly to present the amendments of that
The PRESIDENT : I understand that the
House, and my hon, friend, Mr. Hackett, object of the leader of the Convention is
was nominated by the Legislative Council
not to carry this at once, but to make it
to present their amendments. I beg to pre-
an order of the day for tomorrow.
sent the amendments suggested by the
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Legislative Assembly.
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT (Western
VICTORIAN DELEGATES.
Australia): I beg to present the amend- The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria) : It
ments suggested by the Legislative Council
may not be unknown to members of the
of Western Australia.
Convention that, owing to the necessities
The PRESIDENT :I understand the senior of local politics, the Premier of Victoria
representative of Victoria is absent, and and his two Ministerial colleagues who
will not be present until tomorrow. I are members of the Convention can only
understand the leader of the Convention arrive here by to-morrow's express. That
to move that all the amendments be will not enable them to attend at 10:30a.m.,
printed. The motion now is that all the which has been fixed by the sessional order
amendments before the House be printed. as the hour of the daily meetings of the
Question resolved in the affirmative. Convention. Under these circumstances,
Adjournment.
3
[2 SEPT., 1897]
Reports and Papers.
I do not think I will be asking an undue to a committee consisting of the Trea-
concession on the part of the delegates surers, I have taken that step, not with a
when I suggest that there may be an alter- view of prejudging the question of proce-
ation of the hour of meeting until, say, dure. I think the question as to whether
the hour of noon to-morrow, That is the we resolve ourselves at once into Com-
earliest time it will be possible for them to mittee of the Whole, or whether we wait
be present, and any earlier meeting might until we receive a report on that particular
involve the raising of questions which part of the bill, is a matter that can be
would have to be delayed, so that the pro- well considered later on. In putting the
ceedings are not likely to lose by any such notice of motion on the paper, I do not
concession.
desire to prejudge in any way the proceed-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South ings of the Convention. In anything I
Wales): I quite appreciate what has been propose I will be guided as much as pos-
said by my hon. friend, Mr. Deakin. The sible by the wishes of hon. members.
difficulty perhaps might be met in such a
Question resolved in the affirmative.
way as to avoid conflicting motions as to
Convention adjourned at 12:19 p.in,
procedure if the President, when he takes
the chair at half-past 10 o'clock, adjourns
until 12 o'clock noon, so as to allow the
hon. member's colleagues to be in their
FRIDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
places. I think the Convention would
entirely approve of that course.
The PRESIDENT : If I understand that
Reports and Papers-Suggested Amendments-Petitions-
Notice of Motion-Notice of Amendments-Personal
that is the wish of the Convention, I shall Explanation Financial Clauses of Draft Bill—Draft-
be glad to take the course suggested. It
ing Committec-Returns: Population, Revenue, &c.
-Commonwealth of Australia Bill - Finance Com-
will be necessary for hon. members to be
present for the purpose of forming a quorum
to enable me to take that course.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at noon.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
REPORTS AND PAPERS.
tralia): I hope that course will not be fol-
lowed. There would be no conflict between
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia): I wish
the motion already carried and a motion to
to ask the Premiers of the various colonies
adjourn until noon to-morrow. The motion
which are represented in the Convention,
and in the case of South Australia the
we have agreed to contains the words "un-
less otherwise ordered.”
Treasurer of that colony, whether, for the
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
purpose of helping the deliberations of the
Wales): I will move that the Convention
Convention, they will lay on the table
at its rising adjourn until noon tomorrow.
copies of all reports presented to their re-
spective governments on the question of
ADJOURNMENT.
the finances of the proposed federation, the
Tke Hon. E. BARTON (New South financial clauses of the draft bill, and the
Wales) : I beg to move :
federal control or ownership of the rail-
That the Convention do now adjourn until 12
ways? If necessary, sir, I will give notice
noon to-inorrow.
of the question.
I may explain, as regards the motion for The PRESIDENT : Are the Premiers pre-
the reference of Part IV of the Constitu- pared to answer the question at once, or
tion Bill, relating to finance and trade, do they desire notice of it to be given ?
.
mittee.
4
Personal Explanation.
Suggested Amendments.
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I think the governor-general in council, and shall hold
it would be more regular if notice were
office during the pleasure of the governor-
given of such a question.
general, but for no longer than six years in any
one state at any one time.
Mr. GLYNN : I give notice of the ques- All references or communications required by
tion for Monday.
the constitution of any state or otherwise to be
made by the governor of the state to the Queen,
SUGGESTED AMENDMENTS.
shall be made through the governor-general as
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
her Majesty's representative in the common-
wealth, and the Queen's pleasure shall be made
(Victoria): I desire to present the amend-
known through him.
ments suggested by the Legislative Coun-
The PRESIDENT: I do not think it will
cil and the Legislative Assembly of Vic-
be necessary in all cases for notices of
toria in regard to the Federal Constitution
amendments to be given. If they are
Bill. I move :
That the document be printed.
handed in, they will be printed and appear
on the order-paper.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : In
PETITIONS.
some cases it might be more convenient if
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales): I
notice were given orally.
have the honor to present a petition from
The PRESIDENT : I do not take the
certain Presbyterians in the town of slightest objection to the course which the
Orange praying that there may be a re- hon. gentleman has pursued.
cognition of God in the preamble of the
constitution, and also that the proceedings
PERSONAL EXPLANATION:
of the Federal Parliament may be com-
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania): Be-
menced daily with prayer.
fore the notices of motion are proceeded
The Hon.F.W.HOLDER: I have a similar with, I desire, with the permission of hon.
petition to present from the Moderator of members, to make a short personal expla-
the Presbyterian Church in South Australia. nation. In yesterday's Sydney Morning
Petitions received.
Herald there appears a paragraph headed
“Amendments made by the Tasmanian
NOTICE OF MOTION.
Parliament." The part of the paragraph
Dr. QUICK (Victoria): I beg to give to which I refer relates to the vote giren
notice that at the next meeting I will move: by me and two of my colleagues-Mr.
That a return be laid before this Convention, Henry and Mr. Lewis—at Adelaide, with
showing according to the latest available infor-
regard to the powers of the senate in deal-
mation :
(1.) The population and number of electors in ing with money bills. It will be remem-
each electoral district for the Legislative bered by hon. members who were present
Assembly of New South Wales; and
at Adelaide that when I announced my
(2.) The population and number of electors in
each electoral district for the Legislative
intention to give that vote I carefully
Assembly of Victoria.
guarded myself from being committed to
adhere to the view I then took on any
NOTICE OF AMENDMENTS.
future occasion. This paragraph, in so far
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
as it conveys an impression that there is
(Western Australia): I beg to give notice
any intention on my part to adhere to that
that in Committee on the bill I will
course absolutely, or in so far as it conveys
move that the following two clauses be
the impression that there has been any com-
inserted :
pact entered into between Mr. Henry, Mr.
In each state of the commonwealth there
shall be a governor, who shall be appointed by Lewis, and myself, is quite incorrect. I
Tinancial Clauses
5
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill.
i
and papers.
have the assurance of my hon. friend, Mr. several gentlemen whose names are men-
Henry, that, so far as that view is con- tioned in the motion that they will be pre-
cerned, the paragraph is entirely mislead- pared, in the event of such committee being
ing. There is no compact whatever be appointed, to devote considerable time to
tween that hon. gentleman, Mr. Lewis, and it, apart from the time which will neces-
myself in regard to the matter, nor am I sarily be engaged in our debates. I may
committed to adhere to the position I took mention further that it has been suggested
up in Adelaide.
that additions should be made to the com-
mittee. Inasmuch as my right hon. friends,
FINANCIAL CLAUSES OF DRAFT BILL. Mr. Reid, Sir George Turner, and Sir John
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South Forrest, have been away in England during
Wales) [127] rose to move :
part of the time which has been spent in
(1.) That Chapter IV of the draft constitution criticism and suggestion, it might be wise
be referred to a select committee for considera- to add some other members to the com-
tion and report, with power to send for persons
mittee, perhaps not exceeding one from
each colony represented. That is a sug-
(2.) That such committee consist of Mr. Reid,
Sir George Turner, Mr. Holder, Sir Philip Fysh,
gestion which I leave to the wisdom of the
and Sir John Forrest.
Convention, only saying this : If it seems
He said : Hon. members will recollect, good to the Convention to make these
that in Adelaide a committee consisting additions I would suggest that in order
of the Treasurers of the colonies there that the committee may not be so large as
represented, with the exception of the to be unwieldy, the additions to it should
Right Hon. Sir John Forrest, who, I think, not exceed one from each colony. If that
had then taken his departure for Western is the general sense of the Convention I
Australia, was appointed for the purpose will accept an amendment to my motion
of considering what should be the financial for the purpose of carrying out this pro-
proposals of the bill. They brought up a posal.
report, and the result of their deliberations Question proposed.
was included, practically in their own The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
words, in the bill. Since that time there (Victoria) [12:11]: With regard to this mo-
has been a lapse of four months during tion I cannot approve of it, for this reason:
which criticism by the public and by the The committee will simply meet to discuss
press has been abundant, and during the work which they themselves did some
wbich time also the financial clauses have months ago, and, while we are doing that,
undergone the criticism and been made we shall be doing it in the dark. The
the subject of suggestions by the various majority of us have been away, and I con-
legislatures. Inasmuch as the financial fess that I am not at all acquainted with
provisions of the bill are probably the the proposals which have been made, or
most important with which we will have the suggestions which have been offered
to deal, and inasmuch as they must be so that a better scheme might be prepared
dealt with with a very great deal of delibera-
for submission to the Convention. What
tion—I do not say for a moment that every
I would suggest is this : Now that we are
portion of the bill will not receive great assembled here, let us discuss all those pro-
deliberation, but this, perhaps, will be posals. Let us have the benefit of hearing
specially entitled to it—it has seemed to the various views which may be brought
me that it would be a wise thing to reap-
forward. Let us take into consideration
point this committee. I understand from and try to learn the reasons for the various
6
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 Sept., 1897.]
ner.
suggestions which have been made, and, desire to discuss and deal with important
after we have gained the greatest amount of questions in the absence of the represen-
information possible, then it might be wise tatives of the colony of Victoria. If we
to ask the Treasurers of the several colo- were to deal with this financial matter-
nies to meet together for the purpose of seeing the entertainments we are expected
endeavouring to place the various sugges- to attend in the evenings, and that we shall
tions which will be made here in a form in not be sitting in the evenings—that would
which they can be subunitted afterwards to probably take us a fortnight to discuss, and
the Convention. But I feel that if we are by that time we should probably have got to
to meet, as we will, absolutely in the dark, the bottom of all the proposed amendments,
the work will take us a very long time, and should be in a position to deal with that
and we shall not have the benefit of hear- one important question, which is the most
ing the views of our colleagues. There-
There- important of the whole. Then I doubt if
fore, I should prefer to see this matter dis- any members of the Convention are pre-
cussed fully here, and then we should be pared now to deal in a proper way with
able to deal with it in a satisfactory man- the various suggestions which have been
If we adopt the proposal submitted, made. There are varying suggestions from
I for one would not be in a position to every colony, and I do not think there are
deal with it in a manner satisfactory to many, if any, who are present here to-day
myself or to the Convention.
And in l'e- who know what those suggestions really
gard to this matter, I desire to take the mean, or the reasons which have been
earliest opportunity to point out a great adduced in the various colonies for their
difficulty in which the representatives of adoption. Those of us who have been
the colony of Victoria would be placed. away certainly are not in that position.
When we adjourned some time ago to It will be difficult enough for us to find out
the 2nd September we were certainly exactly what has been done in our own
under the impression that the work to be colony, and I feel that we ought not to
done at the adjourned Convention could attempt to rush the work through on this
easily be carried through in two or three occasion. On the last occasion, from cir-
weeks. We have seen now what has cumstances over which we had no control,
occurred in the various colonies, and the we had to rush the work through ; but,
mmense number of suggestions which seeing that we are now about to take the
have been made touching the most vital final step, so far as the Convention is
points in the proposed constitution, and concerned, in formulating a constitution
we must realise that it will be utterly which will practically have to last for all
impossible for this Convention, unless it time-because it will be very difficult in-
is prepared to sit for at least a couple deed to amend it--we must be prepared
of months, to deal with the question in to know exactly what we are doing, to see
à manner that will be at all satisfactory. exactly where we are going, and to devote
We, in Victoria, unfortunately will hare a very large amount of time for the pur-
in four or five weeks a general election, pose of doing our work properly and satis-
and it will be utterly impossible for the factorily. I trust the members of the Con-
representatives of Victoria, and especially vention will give the matter careful con-
those who hold ministerial positions, to re- sideration—not alone looking at it from
main here longer at the outside than some the point of view of the difficulty in which
three weeks. I feel perfectly certain that the representatives of Victoria are placed,
members of the Convention would not but looking at it also in view of the grave
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
T'inancial Clauses
7
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill.
importance of the whole subject. We are of the colony. Therefore I would throw
not at the present time sufficiently edu- out the suggestion that we should take
cated with regard to the proposed sugges- the opportunity of endeavouring to thresh
tions to deal with them, and I trust we will out this one question-the financial ques-
endeavour to take up, say, the financial tion—that we then leave that to the com-
matter, and thresh that out at our leisure, mittee, adjourn, give them ample time to
then leaving it to the committee to deal with look fully into the matter, and meet later
it hereafter. But with regard to the other on, say, in February or March, when we
important questions I trust we shall not shall be seized of all the various matters
attempt to deal with them hurriedly here, and be able to deal with them satisfac-
and that for the reasons I have given-to torily.
suit the convenience of the colony of which
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
I am one of the representatives, and to en- [12.19]: I am sure it must come to the re-
able us to make ourselves fully acquainted presentatives present as a great surprise
with all the proposed amendments--we will that our right hon, friend who has just re-
allow the other work of the Convention to sumed bis seat should say, after members
stand over until, say, February or March. of the Convention have been considering
These are the views I hold. I have thought these subjects since the year 1891, and
the matter over carefully. I feel, as I probably a period long anterior to that,
said before, that the Convention ought not that we are not now, in the year 1897,
to proceed with important matters in the sufficiently educated on the subjects to give
absence of the representatives of the colony that due attention to them to bring them
of Victoria, and I know we cannot remain to a fruition now. I am surprised exceed-
here at the outside more than three weeks. ingly. I should have presumed that those
Under these circumstances I trust that the who attended only our former Convention
representatives present will endeavour to in April last, and who have kept them-
devise some means by which we may
be
selves in touch with all that has been
present at all the discussions, and by which written by the press, discussed in our Han-
all of us may have greater opportunities sards, and spoken at our firesides, would
than we have hitherto had of ascertaining have been prepared, at any rate, now, to
exactly what the suggestions mean and consider every one of the questions, diffi-
what we are about to do. I have taken
cult though they may be of solution. Now
the opportunity of bringing this matter that we have met, the people of Australia,
forward so that I might hear the views of I believe-I certainly may speak for the
representatives of other colonies with re- people of Tasmania; and I have it on record
gard to the suggestion I have made. Of
on my passage here that the people of Vic-
course, if we are in the minority we shall toria, also, are looking to this Convention,
have to stop and do the best we can as not to adjourn at an early date, but to
long as we can, and then we shall have continue their sittings until this work sball
to leave the other matters to be dealt with be completed. Therefore, I am surprised
by the representatives of the other colo- that my right hon. friend from Victoria,
nies. But I am afraid that will not be who represents a body of people strongly
satisfactory to us nor satisfactory to imbued with the federal spirit, he himself
those whom we represent, and it may also being strongly imbued with that spirit,
place us in a very difficult position when and having an earnest desire to see the end
we come to deal with this bill in either of this work, should consider it to be his
recommending it or otherwise to the people duty now to ask for a considerable delay.
8
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
A
I speak thus, notwithstanding that I am going to urge, therefore, whenever I have
with him, and not at issue with him. It an opportunity, that we shall undertake
is most important that Victoria should be the discharge of the duty which is com
represented throughout in the Convention, mitted to our care, and if we fail to solve
and that we should not deal with any im- the problem satisfactorily there will be
portant subject in her absence. I believe, ample opportunity—having given to the
however, that if we are really intending to future commonwealth or executive our
federate_intending to perfect the mea- solution of the difficulty—for them here-
sure commenced in 1891, nearly adopted after, if needs be, to seek an amendment
in the present year, admitted generally to of the constitution in that particular direc-
have laid the foundation of nine-tenths, at tion. I find, however, that the Premier of
any rate, of the measure which must ulti- Victoria addressed himself to this question
mately be accepted as the Commonwealth of finance, not so much with the idea of deal-
Bill—we must proceed to do so without ing with it, as with the idea of putting for-
delay. After many interesting discussions, ward his own proposal with respect to an
our late, or present parliaments now sitting early adjournment of the Convention. I
in session, have submitted to us a very do not know what early means, but I pre-
considerable number of amendments. I sume a week means early, and if so, I sin-
think we might deal with the greater por- cerely hope hon. gentlemen will not be
tion of those amendments in the course induced to entertain his idea, but that our
of a few hours, and leave the important friends from Victoria will give to us the
amendments for that mature consideration longest possible time at their disposal. We
which every one of them demands; and I thought that, coming here, they would give
know there are none of them that demand us three weeks of their time. Bearing in
more consideration than those which deal mind what took place in April—that for
with finance. The financial question has nearly two weeks we were discussing resolu-
ever been a difficulty-and I am a little sur- tions, and that those resolutions are now dis-
prised to find that some of the parliaments posed of, and that we are no longer likely to
of Australia have considered it to be so have any second reading speeches-let us
great a difficulty that we, who are charged address ourselves properly to the question.
with the solution of it, are to have with- Hox. MEMBERS : Hear, hear !
drawn from us the consideration of that
The Hon. Sir P.O. FYSH: The response
solution--that it is to be left to the future; which comes from hon. gentlemen to that
and that it has been said by some of our remark is an indication to me that we can
parliaments that this body, specially elected get on with our work promptly.
by the people to solve that and all the other The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Then let us
difficult questions of federation, is not get on with the work !
capable of doing it, but that they believe The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I am very
that there will be, in the future, a body of glad to hear my hon. friend say that.
men rising up, to be known as the federal The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The hon.
executive and federal parliament, who will gentleman is not giving us the chance !
be able to solve it. I think a goodly num- The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH:Under the
ber of the representatives present to-day circumstances, I will not further prolong
are not at all unlikely to have thrown my observations. I may say I am not at
upon them the responsibility of the solu- issue with hon. members. I am satisfied
tion of this problem in the future, even if with, and I shall support, the proposal of
this Convention does not solve it. I am our leader, Mr. Barton, to the effect that the
[The Home So P. O. Fuso.
Financial Clauses [3 SEPT., 1897.]
9
of Draft Bill.
committee shall not consist merely of the Mr. SYMON : I understand that in one
four Treasurers; but that they shall be
sup-
instance the provisions included in the
ported by the addition of at least one other Draft Commonwealth Bill, as they left the
representative of every colony. We shall Adelaide Convention, were struck out, and
then find that when the work of the com- no complete scheme was inserted in their
mittee comes before us, we shall more place for dealing with the financial ques-
readily get on with our proceedings. tion. Therefore, I am sure that the ap-
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (12.25]: pointment of the committee now, simply
I entirely agree with the suggestion of the as a finance committee, will not create
hon, member, Mr. Barton, with regard to any of the difficulties suggested by the
the desirability--if the Convention thinks Premier of Victoria. It will be left to the
fit--of adding to the committee which is committee to settle the question with the
to consider the financial question. I feel materials before them. Under those cir-
—and I think my right hon. friend, Sir cumstances, I shall support the proposal;
George Turner, will also feel—that there but with the concurrence of the Conven-
is really no difficulty so far as regards the tion I shall seek to add additional names.
labours of the proposed Finance Committee I hope hon. members will believe me when
are concerned, if we treat that committee, I
say
that I shall not mention those addi-
as I understand it is to be treated, as one tional names with any idea of suggesting
for the consideration of the financial ques- that they are superior in financial know-
tion. It is not intended, I think, by Mr. ledge or capacity to the already suggested
Barton, that the Financial Committee members of the committee. My opinion
when constitutedshallimmediately proceed is that the financial question is one of the
to deal with the financial question, unless most difficult, one of the most trouble-
they are possessed of the necessary material some-the hardest nut to crack-in the
to enable them efficiently to do so. There- path of a scheme for a federal consti-
fore, I take it, that it will be competent tution. It constitutes the bargain that is
for the committee, when appointed, to to be entered upon by the different states.
either assume their duties at once or to When I recollect tbat the original com-
wait until the Convention itself has con- mittee was a very large one, that it dealt
sidered any of the amendments which
may very exhaustively with the whole of the
have been suggested by the legislatures of subject, and that its proposals were con-
the different colonies. My idea is that the sidered by the Convention in Adelaide to
Financial Committee will not derive very be insufficient, and when I recollect that
great assistance from the suggestions of that was followed by the smaller commit-
the various legislatures. The provisions tee of the various Treasurers, then I think
embodied in the Draft Cominonwealth Bill it would be well that we should have on
were dealt with by them, and were sub- this committee some additional help—some
jected to considerable criticism. But, after new blood--with the view of dealing, not
all, so far as my recollection goes, they with the proposals as they were originally
were treated with what I may call very framed, but with the suggestions of the
short shrift. I think I am correct in stat- different parliaments. I, therefore, suggest
ing that, in Victoria, no other provisions that there shall be added to the committee
were substituted for those provided in the the names of Mr. J. Henry (Tasmania), Mr.
Draft Commonwealth Bill.
P. M. Glynn (South Australia), Mr. W.
An Hon. MEMBER: That is quite wrong; McMillan (New South Wales), and Mr. J.
there were several suggestions !
T. Walker (New South Wales).
10
of Draft Bill.
T'inancial Clauses
[3 Sept., 1897.]
If we
An HON. MEMBER : Dr. Quick for Vic- toria, as well as the misfortune of the other
toria !
members of the Convention—to have to
Another HON. MEMBER: Western Aus- agree to it when sufficient reason arises
tralia !
for us to consider the question. Do not
Mr. SYMON: Idonotlike to makeany in- let us throw cold water on this movement
vidious suggestions with regard to Victoria. at this early stage, or by constant adjourn-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Would it not be ments bring about that hope deferred
wise to leare that matter to the Treasurers which really makes the heart sick. Let
who are appointed to the committee to us get through our work if we can.
name colleagues !
have only a week at our disposal let us
Mr. SYMON: I am perfectly willing. make the best we can of it. Do not let
Whichever is the better course, I am per- us be timid of our own powers and ener-
fectly willing to adopt it. I would very
I would very gies. I do hope that this discussion of
much rather not make any nomination, the suggested adjournment will not be
but leave the matter as my hon. and considered final will not even be further
learned friend, Mr. Barton, suggests. I prosecuted now, if I may appeal to hon.
do feel that there ought to be some ad- members from Victoria ; but that the ques-
ditional members on the Finance Com- tion will be left in abeyance until an abso-
mittee, with the view, if possible, of arriv- lute necessity for adjournment arises, and
ing at a final and satisfactory solution of that we shall in the meantime do our best
this very difficult question. I should like to accomplish not part but the whole of
to say a few words in regard to the second the work that lies before us..
part of my right hon. friend, Sir George The PRESIDENT: I ask the hon. member
Tarner's speech in which he shadowed if he moves an amendment, and, if so,
forth the possibility of anadjournment with would he kindly let me have it in the
only part of our work done. It would be shape he desires ?
absurd to think of our going through our
Mr. SYMON: No; I yield to the sug-
labours or attempting to complete them gestion of the hon. and learned member,
without the presence of the representatives Mr. Barton,
of Victoria. We must all feel that. There- The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
fore it is our bounden duty-if it were not, Wales): May I make a suggestion? It is
in addition to that, a satisfaction to us- that each delegation should select whom it
to do everything in our power to meet the considers the most desirable member to add
wishes and convenience of my right hon. to the Finance Committee, and, when that
friend and the other representatives of has been done, I shall be prepared to amend
Victoria ; at the same time, I do hope the motion so as to cover that selection.
that we shall not, at any rate at this early An Hon. MEMBER: Why not select two?
stage, either contemplate or put into shape The Hon. E. BARTON: It would
any proposal for an adjournment. I think make the committee too large.
that the solution of the whole question is
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[12:34]:
that offered by the Right Hon. Sir George I am sorry that I cannot agree with all that
Turner himself. Let us stay here and do my right hon. friend, Sir George Turner,
the very best we can in the time at our said. I think that we should get to work.
disposal, and, if the necessities of the case When the time arrives when we have to
should render an adjournmentunavoidable, adjourn or prorogue, that will be the proper
then it may be our misfortune-I mean time to say whether our work is or is not
the misfortune of hon. members from Vid- completed.
[Mr. Symon.
Financial Clauses
11
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill.
Mr. MOMILLAN: This discussion of an that there cannot be two opinions as to
adjournment is not in order !
whether we should have a larger Finance
The Hon. S. FRASER: No. I would Committee than the five Treasurers; but,
urge that we should get to work and see with regard to the composition of the com-
what can be done in the meantime.
mittee, I hold very strong views. We
The PRESIDENT: It has been suggested have already had committees appointed
that the discussion now proceeding is not by delegations. The first intimation I had
in order. I think it is in order, because that I had been appointed a member of
the suggestion is that instead of going the Judiciary Committee was through the
on with the business we should adjourn. newspapers.
Under these circumstances I should not
Mr. SYMON : That was a great compli-
be justified in ruling the discussion out of ment !
order.
Mr..WALKER : I look upon it as a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- compliment, and I admit that it was cour-
toria) [12.35]: That is not the position I teous on the part of the chairman and other
desire to take up at the present time. What hon. members of the committee to consider,
I suggested was that we should go on dis- as they did, any little suggestions that the
cussing this financial matter, and let the only laymen on the committee—the Chief
Convention put before those who may form Secretary of Victoria and I-had to offer.
the Finance Committee various views in I recognise that it was an honor to be on
connection with the matter. I thought that that committee; but I was not sent into
that would probably occupy us for a fort- this Convention to take part specially in
night, and that, having spent a fortnight the proceedings of a judiciary committee.
profitably on that work, we could very I am, I fear, incompetent to offer sug-
easily adjourn, knowing that we had laid gestions worthy of being listened to by
the foundation of some good work.
The that committee. However, my object is
committee would have ample time at their not to speak of any grievance, if I have
disposal afterwards to discuss the whole any, 'but to suggest that the additional
matter, and when the adjourned Conven- members of the committee should be
tion met some months lience we would elected by ballot of the Whole House, be-
have the proposals of the committee before cause the system of allowing delegations to
us, and would be able to work in the light appoint members is, in my opinion, a pro-
of fuller knowledge. I do not desire to vincial system, whereas we should encour-
adjourn now. I have no wish at all that the
age a federal spirit. We came here as
Convention should adjourn; but I do say representatives of different colonies; but,
that the committee when they meet will once here, we are all on the same level, and
be working in the dark unless they know we should appoint on special committees
the views of the various representatives those hon. members who have special quali-
here.
fications. Personally, I have interests in
The PRESIDENT : After the statement all the colonies, except Tasmania ; there-
made by the Right Hon. Sir George fore, my sympathies are not confined to any
Turner, I ask hon. members to adhere one colony. I do trust that, if we appoint
more closely to the subject before them. additional members to the Finance Com-
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales) mittee, we will recognise the fact that all
[12:37]: I rise to offer a few remarks in the Treasurers ought to be on it, but that
regard to the motion of the hon. and the additional members should be elected
learned member, Mr. Barton. I think by a ballot of the Whole House.
12
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
The PRESIDENT : Does the hon. repre- tee of Treasurers and some other members
sentative move an amendment?
would be very useful and desirable, I think
Mr. WALKER: No. I merely make that before that committee meets these gen-
the suggestion that the additional mem- tlemen would like-at all events, speak-
bers should be elected by the whole Con- ing for myself, I should like—to hear the
vention, irrespective of which colony they views of the members of the Convention
come from.
in regard to the suggestions which have
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST been made by the various legislatures.
(Western Australia)[12:39]: Ihavelistened The Hon. E. BARTON : That is a matter
attentively to what has been said by our the members of the committee could regu-
right hon. friend, Sir George Turner, and late for themselves !
I express my regret that he should find
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
himself in the position he does in regard to The only way in which we could regulate
pressing matters which will require his at- it would be to postpone our meetings, or,
tention in his own colony in a short time. at any rate, our decisions, until we have
I myself, as a representative of Western heard the observations of the members of
Australia, was in a similar position when the Convention in regard to these sugges-
the Convention met at Adelaide ; but I do tions. For my own part, at the present
not intend to mete out to him as little time I do not know what suggestions have
sympathy as he extended to me at that been made. I have not even seen the
time. All my endeavours to elicit the suggestions. We shall have to consider
sympathy of hon. members fell very flat, them, however, and we must hear what
and, as they all know, the representatives other members of the Convention have to
of Western Australia had to go away and say in regard to them. As I said before, I
leave the Convention to deal with the bill quite sympathise with the representatives
in their absence. Of course, I recognise from Victoria, though I do not think that
fully at once that the absence of the repre- at Adelaide they sympathised with me to
sentatives of Western Australia was not
the same extent.
nearly so important a matter as the absence
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : Did I not
of the representatives of Victoria would
second the motion there?
be. I recognise that for us to continue our
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
deliberations without the presence of the
Not only do I sympathise with the repre-
representatives from Victoria would not
sentatives from Victoria, but when the time
be at all what we should desire. But, if the
comes I shall be willing to assist them in
representatives from Victoria will pardon
me for concurring in the suggestion of Mr.
every way possible. I do not think, how-
Symon, I think the best course for us to
ever, that it would be wise for us to begin
this business with the intention of not
pursue is to go on with the bill now, and I
am sure that when the time comes beyond completing it
. My opinion is that we
which the representatives of Victoria find it
should do as 'much as we can, and, if we
impossible to remain, they will not appeal in
find that we cannot finish the work before
vain to the Convention to meet their wishes
the time arrives when the delegates from
in every possible way. I think we shall
Victoria will have to return, we can then
do well if we go on with the consideration
consider the question of an adjournment.
of the amendments suggested by the vari- I am sure that upon this matter the mem-
ous legislatures at once. With regard to
bers of the Convention will be willing and
the financial question, while. I am quite of
anxious to meet their wishes in every way
opinion that the appointment of a commit- possible.
[Mr. Walker.
Financial Clauses
13
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12:43]: their conclusions were sent to the Conven-
I intend to move the addition of the follow- tion the clauses which they had framed
ing words to the motion :
could not be accepted. The first set of
That it be an instruction to the committee to clauses were practically stillborn, or rather,
have the evidence given by experts or statis-
their mortality was soon settled by the
ticians to the committee printed, and that copies
of such evidence and of any statistics or reports
shafts of criticism directed against them
furnished to the committee be laid on the table by the members of the Convention. The
of the Convention.
second set of clauses suggested, notwith-
I never could see what good object was standing their ingenuity, were not such
served by the secrecy in which the commit- that we could accept them as a solution
tees conducted their deliberations at Ade- of the difficulty. They have been keenly
laide. The true precedent in this matter criticised by the press and by the members
was set to us by the Convention itself in of the Convention and of the various legis-
having its deliberations published in the latures, and the conclusion all have come
full light of day, hon. members being of to is that these clauses cannot be accepted
opinion that our judgments upon circum- as a solution of the matter, or be embodied
stances are likely to be clearer when they as part of the ultimate constitution regu-
are not formed in secret. It is a strange lating the financial affairs of the common-
thing that copies of the evidence taken at wealth. I think that the fullest informa-
Adelaide by the principal committee—the tion should be given to the members of the
Finance Committee-have never been sup- Convention by allowing the publication of
plied to the members of the Convention, the evidence as the sittings of the commit-
We were asked to accept the conclusions tee take place. In this way we may hope
drawn by members of that committee with- to obtain the co-operation of the members
outexamining the premises upon which they
of the Convention, of the outside public, of
were based. I submit, however, that it is the press, and of the members of the vari-
a very difficult matter to arrive at correct
ous parliaments. In this way we may get
conclusions without having an opportunity
a solution which, if not perfect, will be
to consider the evidence on which those
based upon a recommendation generally
.
conclusions ought to be based. If there is regarded as the best obtainable.
one thing more than another which approxi-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I would suggest
mates to certainty in regard to the work of
that the amendment first suggested should
the Convention it is that neither of the sets
be put before that motion proposed which
of clauses which contain the solution sug-
would come at the end of the resolution,
gested by the Finance Comunittee and the and I propose to move it in this form :
Committee of Treasurers could be accepted
That the following words be added to the
motion That another representative of each
as they stand. The first solution which
colony sliall be chosen by the representatives
was brought forward by the committee thereof."
was practically stillborn.
Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria): It ap-
An Hon. MEMBER: Not stillborn !
pears to me that there is a good deal of mis-
Mr. McMILLAN : That was not the fault " apprehension in regard to the suggestion
of the committee ; it was the fault of the thrown out by the Right Hon. Sir George
Convention !
Turner. It seems to me that he dissents
Mr. GLYNN: I do not know whose from the motion submitted by the leader
fault it was ; but this is the time to give of the Convention that a committee should
the necessary directions. The upshot of the now be appointed to prepare a financial
committee's deliberations was that when scheme for submission to the Convention
14
of Draft Bill.
l'incercial Clauses
[3 Sept., 1897.
on the ground that the members named and well-done work if we were to adoptı.
to form the committee have all of them, the suggestion of the hon. member, Mr.
except the hon. member, Mr. Holder, been Symnon, of hurrying as much as we can
absent from the colonies during the period now.
in which important discussions have been The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: There was
taking place in the various parliaments no suggestion to hurry!
and in the press. The Right Hon. Sir Mr. SYMON: I did not say that we
John Forrest has, it seems to me, added should hurry!
valuable testimony as to the wisdom of Mr. MCMILLAN: Why debate the matter
the Right Hon. Sir George Tarner's objec- at all?
tion. He has pointed out that he is utterly Mr. TREN WITH : Because it hinges
ignorant of what has taken place in the upon the resolution before us.
colonies since our last sitting at Adelaide. Mr. MCMILLAN: Not at all!
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: I Mr. TRENWITH: The resolution is
said that I was ignorant of the suggestions that the financial question be relegated to
which have been made by the various
a committee at once. The suggestion of
legislatures!
my right hon. friend, the Premier of Vic-
Mr. TRENWITH: Yes, exactly. toria, is that the question should be first
While I indorse as heartily as any person
discussed by the whole Convention in Com-
can the desirability of expedition in con- mittee, and that it should be subsequently
nection with our labours, I feel that we referred to the Finance Committee for
want something more. We want the assur- report.
ance that we shall have ample time to do Mr. GLYNN : There is no objection to
thoroughly the work we have undertaken. the appointment of the Finance Committee
The misfortune of the work which has been
now !
done so far is tbatit was done under the high Mr. TRENWITH: No; but it does seem
pressure of a knowledge that we must ad- to me that very sufficient reasons bave
journ at a certain time, and not be able been given why the Finance Committee,
to meet again for the purpose for which when appointed, should have the advan-
we were then sitting. We are not in that tage of a discussion in the full Convention
position now. We have whatever time upon the broad general principles of finance
we choose to take, if arrangements can be in order that they may learn from the
made by which the time can be taken at delegates here, in a better way than they
a season convenient to the various colo- could do by reading the Hansard reports
nies. The Right Hon. Sir George Turner of the various parliaments, what has been
has pointed out that it is impossible for
said and done in the respective colonies,
the delegates from Victoria to remain here and also the general character of the criti-
now more than three weeks; but it is cism which has been advanced upon the
not necessary to conclude our labours in work of the Convention. The assumption,
three weeks, or in three years, if the in- however, that the delegates from Victoria
terests of federation would be jeopardised require an adjournment at so early a period
thereby. It is, however, necessary to do as one week, as suggested by one hon.
this work effectively, to do it so thoroughly, member, arises from a misapprehension.
so completely and well, that when submitted We have no idea that we should do any-
to the people of Australia it will be adopted. thing but sit here and, as industriously as
We should lose that certainty of ultimate we can, although not hurriedly, discuss and
success which would result from complete consider the matter for three weeks at
[Mr. Trenwith.
Financial Clauses
15
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill
ness.
any rate; for we think we can devote that Personally, I should prefer to see the
time to the work, and we feel that we can, the original motion carried. As far as I
and ought to do that which we have to do myself' am concerned, I may tell my hon.
thoroughly and properly.
friend, Mr. Walker, that, if it does come
Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales) to a question of one delegate being ap-
[12:54]: It seems to me that the time has pointed from each colony, there will be
come when we should get practically to busi- no difficulty about his inclusion in the
The question is—are the Treasurers committee.
of the colonies who have all the informa- Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [12:56]:
tion in their hands, and who fill a particu- The motion which has been made by the
lar position in connection with finance to leader of the Convention has taken me
be formed into a committee of investiga- rather by surprise. I had no knowledge of
tion which can carry on its work at any it until I heard of it yesterday. The hon.
time during the sittings of this Conven- member proposes to revert to the system
tion so as to be useful in affording informa- which was carried out in South Australia
tion, and in consulting together as to the of electing committees, for the purpose of
general work before us? It does not really doing the work of the Convention.
follow that even if this Committee is ap- Now, having been a member of the Finance
pointed we should not deal with these Committee in South Australia, I must say
financial clauses in the ordinary way, or
that I do not look with much favour upon
that the committee should report to the the proposal made by the hon. member. If
Convention until they have had the bene- we look to the result of the Finance Com-
fit of any debate which may take place in mittee appointed on the last occasion, I do
the full coinmittee. It seems to me that not think it will be found that much benefit
the main object of the committee of five was derived from it. If we go a little
Treasurers is that every possible statistical further, and look at the result of the com-
information bearing upon this great sub- mittee of Treasurers, I think we shall find
ject may be put in such a clear and con- still less benefit.
cise form that those who are dealing with The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon, member
the question of finance as it relates to will admit that the subject is a difficult one!
what has been termed the bargain between Mr. LYNE: I admit that.
the colonies will know exactly what they
An Hon. MEMBER: The bon. member
are doing. We were at great difficulty in himself was a member of the Finance Com-
the Finance Committee in connection with mittee !
the Convention in Adelaide in getting Mr. LYNE : I have already said that I
clear and reliable information. There was
As far as the present committee are
a want of definiteness in the stutistical concerned, if, as the hon, member, Mr.
work which I hope will not be repeated McMillan, suggested, my hon. friend, Mr.
now. It would be better I think under Walker, is anxious to be a member of the
all the circumstances to carry this motion committee, he certainly will have my vote.
in its original form, and; then, if this com- Having regard to my experience in connec-
mittee of Treasurers desires to have others tion with the last Finance Committee, I
added to its body, or desires to examine have not the slightest desire to be on the
other peculiar experts, as they may be
comunittee which it is now proposed to
considered, they can do so. The great appoint. If the business of this commit-
difficulty in connection with the last tee is to be conducted as the business of
Finance Committee lay in its numbers. the last committee was conducted, that is,
was.
16
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 SEPT., 1897.
in secret, I do not think it will be produc- Convention, or if it is for the purpose of
tive of any good at all. I certainly agree guiding the decision of this Convention on
with the hon. member, Mr. Glynn, in the all-important question of the finances
thinking that a huge mistake was made in of the commonwealth. If the latter is the
South Australia in conducting the busi- ohject, probably there may be some wis-
ness of this committee in secret. It would dom in appointing the committee. But,
assist us in educating-if I may use the as I said at the outset, I am opposed, to a
termthe public mind to have the de- very large extent, to the appointment of a
liberations of the committee in public, committee of this kind on the present occa-
and, if its appointment be agreed to, I hope sion. The question of finance is, no doubt,
the mover of the amendment will press bis one of vast importance, and, in the past, it
proposal, and will obtain the consent of has been one of the great difficulties we
the Convention, if possible, to having the have had to contend with; but I do not agree
deliberations of the committee, not only with the Right Hon. Sir George Turner,
in public, but also published. At the pre- that it is the most important question this
sent time we are having submitted to the Convention has to deal with. It is one
public only little scraps and bits of the that can be dealt with, and, probably,
evidence taken by the Finance Committee satisfactorily, in the future. The greatest
in Adelaide on various important matters. question we have to deal with is that of
I thought then that the whole of the evi. equal state rights, and not the question of
dence taken should have been submitted finance, because the financial question may
to the public. It would have had consider- adjust itself in a few years, whereas the
able effect, I am satisfied, in guiding the difficulties of the question of state rights
public mind in a determination as to what may increase in the course of time. With
should be done at the present time, and it regard to the adjournment suggested by
would also have guided the minds of mem- the Premier of Victoria, if we agree to an
bers of the Convention who had not the adjournment in three weeks' time, what
privilege of hearing the evidence given. will happen at the next meeting of the
Mr. SOLOMON: There was no evidence Convention? The next meeting will prob-
except that of the Railway Commissioners! ably take place just before the elections in
Mr. LYNE: But why was it not pub- New South Wales, and then we shall have
lished ?
to adjourn for those elections. Some other
Mr. SOLOMON : It was published !
watter may also crop up to cause further
Mr. LYNE: We heard nothing about delay and adjournment. While I should
it in New South Wales until the publica- certainly like to fall in with any proposal
to accommodate the Victorian representa-
tion of some of it in one of the newspapers
a short time ago.
tives, I would point out that the dissolu-
tion in that colony takes place on the 4th
[The President left the chair at 1 p.m. The of next month. I suppose the seats of all
Corrrention resumed its sitting at % 29. m.]
the gentlemen present are so safe that they
Mr. LYNE: With regard to the ap- do not want to go amongst their electors
pointment of this committee, I should like very much, and it would be better for then
the hon. member, Mr. Barton, to explain to wait until the 4th of next month, or
what the committee is really intended to thereabouts, and then I suppose they will
do_if it is intended to conduct its discus- have three or four weeks before the elec-'
sions and obtain its evidence in secrecy, tion takes place. They will thus have
and simply bring up a bald report to this ample time to consult their constituents.
[Mr. Lyne.
1
Financial Clauses
17
[3 SEPT., 1897.
of Draft Bill.
Mr. HIGGINS : Will the hon. member members of this Convention occupied most
stump the country for us?
of the time in the discussions. I think we
Mr. LYNE: If hon. gentlemen are in could get through a great deal of work in
vour of the policy I advocate, I will be three or four weeks. I believe that if we
glad to do so. They are, however, quite devote ourselves heartily to the work, in
capable of doing that for themselves. I four weeks time from now, we shall be
was rather amused by the few remarks that very near the end of the discussion. I
fell from the Premier of Western Australia sincerely trust we shall not be called upon
about the short shrift he got in South Aus- to agree to another adjournment, and that
tralia. Why, the business of the Convention before we separate we shall have some-
was turned topsy-turvy to meet the desires thing licked into shape which we shall be
of the hon. gentleman. To oblige him we able to submit to the people of the country.
gave prior consideration to several clauses The Hon. Sir JOHN DOWNER (South
at the end of the bill. We all felt that we Australia) [2.8]: I do not think the proceed-
should give every facility to those hon. ings of the Convention will be helped very
gentlemen who came so far to attend the much by adjourning at the earliest possible
Convention, and we did so. I think on moment. It is rather a pity that there is any
that occasion the Western Australian re- necessity to discuss the matter, because I
presentatives wanted to go away because take it that it prevents us from going on
an election was about to take place there. with very important business. I do not
If you take it step by step, you will find know what these proposals are which the
that the best thing we can do on the pre- Right Hon. Sir George Turner referred to
sent occasion is to carry out the suggestion as being before us. There have been many
made by several members of the Conven- proposals in the newspapers, but I know
tion, and particularly, I think, by the hon. of no proposals that have been before the
and learned member, Mr. Symon, to dis- Convention. If we examine the parlia-
cuss with reasonable rapidity the questions mentary records, we shall find very few
that come before us
proposals. They are generally objections
Mr. SYMON : And efficiently !
to the present proposals rather than sug-
Mr. LYNE: And discuss the sugges- gestions as to any possible way out of the
tions made to us by the various parlia difficulty. I am entirely in favour of the
ments. That is one of the great objections appointment of the committee which has
to appointing a committee which is to sit been moved. At all events, they can
in secret. It would be really throwing bring up in some form the proposals that
the whole of the suggestions of the parlia- are in the air, but which are not before us.
ment into a pool, and they would not re- On the other hand, if we leave the ques-
ceive full discussion in the light of day, tion to chance, for each hon. gentleman to
which suggestions coming from such im- ventilate some particular well or ill-con-
portant bodies as the legislatures ought to sidered scheme he may have in his mind,
receive at the hands of this Convention. I agree with the Right Hon. Sir George
I hope that those recommendations will Turner, that we shall take many months
receive proper consideration at the hands before we even arrive at what it is we are
of the Convention. I trust the learned talking about, and before we know substan-
members of this Convention will restrain tially what we have to consider. We have
themselves a little, and to a greater extent come here after an adjournment, having
than they did in South Australia, because practically undertaken to the whole of
we might reasonably say that the learned Australia that we shall settle this question
B
18
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 SEPT., 1897.1
:
before we adjourn. We adjourned before wish the matter not to be hurried seem to
out of consideration for certain hon. gentle anticipate. As far as I sat here listening
men, who thought that they had a duty to to the debate, I hope the result will be an
perform, and I agree that it was a duty. endeavour on the part of every member of
But when the Convention consented to the Convention to do all he possibly can to
that adjournment it was on the distinct satisfy the whole continent of Australia
understanding that when they returned that we are here with a whole-heartedness
the Convention should meet again, and and determination to carry out this work
the question should be finally determined. before we adjourn, unless indeed it be found
To adjourn again, and to keep the matter to be impossible.
dangling before the public, would be simply The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New
to lend assistance to the adversaries of the South Wales): I was under the impression,
great cause, and to justify them in think- sir, that the motion before the Convention
ing that though earnestness was in our was the appointment of a committee ; but
words, it was not in our hearts. I dis- listening to the debate one would imagine
tinctly object to the suggestion that we that the question was the adjournment of
should have an adjournment unless it is the Convention. With all respect to those
inevitable. I also protest against my right who say that there was no burry in Ade-
hon. friend's statement that the proceed- laide, I am one of those who believe that
ings in Adelaide were hurried. We worked there was a great deal of hurry in Ade-
very hard; we sat very long hours. Men laide, for the Premiers had to go away to
do not always work any the worse for England, and many of the New South
having to work hard, and at great pres- Wales representatives had to come back
sure men are capable of doing much greater here to meet their own Parliament. What
things than when they are working in a we have to consider, and to give a great
mere dilettante fasbion, when they can
deal of consideration to, is the question of
adjourn from time to time and from place public sentiment. It must not go abroad
to place. I hope we shall act regardless of that anything done by this Convention
our own time and convenience, and will was done in a hurry or without due con-
study in every way we can reasonably sideration, otherwise whatever conclusions
the cause which we have to support, and we may come to we shall be charged with
the duty which we owe to ourselves and having come to those conclusions hurriedly,
those whom we represent. I hope we
and without sufficient consideration. We
shall sit, not merely every day, but every
do not want the enemies of federation to be
night, if necessary, so as to ensure the able to say that, under any circumstances
fullest consideration. I utterly disagree
or under any conditions, we did not give
with the suggestion that if we do that the ample and due consideration to any sug-
result must be that our resolutions will be gestion which had been made by the various
less well considered than if we take more parliaments. But at the same time, I think
time about them, and bring our energies no one will question the advisability of the
to them in a more intermittent manner. I motion made to refer these matters to a
think if we proceed with a whole-hearted- select committee; and will it not be time
ness to do the work, not to scamp it- enough when the necessity arises to con-
perhaps in three weeks we may do it well sider the question of adjournment? I am
enough, and even this great financial ques- one of those who believe that every con-
tion might be found not so very difficult sideration should be shown to those mem-
to deal with as some hon. members who bers who, through no fault of their own,
[The Hon. Sir John Downer.
Financial Clauses
19
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
of Draft Bill.
may be called away, as was shown to the written on the subject of federal finance.
Western Australian representatives, who In addition to that, there will be in the
were allowed to take a certain part of the hands of hon. members to-morrow a tabu-
bill by reason of the fact that they had to lated statement of all the amendments
leave early. I confess I was not one of suggested by the various legislatures made
those who gave them that consideration; out in such a form that the sequence of
but, nevertheless, the Convention as a whole them in the clauses will be seen at a glance,
did. When the time comes we should con- and the Finance Committee thereby, with
sider the reasons for an adjournment; but that information before them, will know
at present I think we are wasting time in at once, and in a very easy form, .exactly
discussing that question.
what has been done by the various legisla-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South tures. That, I think, will also meet the
Wales) [2º15], in reply: In deference to the view of my right hon. friend, Sir John
suggestion which has been made I wrote Forrest, who said that we have not seen
down the following words as an amendment the suggestions of the various legislatures.
to the second paragraph of the motion :- They have now all been laid on the table,
" And one other representative of each and although some of them arrived rather
colony to be chosen by the representatives late, they will be all embodied in a tabulated
thereof." The time for amending the wo- statement which will be in the hands of
tion has passed, unless bon. members ex- hon, members to-morrow. I quite agrée
press their concurrence in this amendment with the hon. member, Mr. Trenwith,
in such a way that I can ask Mr. President, in deprecating anything like hurry; but
by concurrence, to add it to the motion. Of I do not think wbile we decline to hurry
course, if I find any expression of opinion we are therefore bound to take such a
from hon. members against that I will course as will hang up the proceedings of
leave the motion as it stands.
this Convention for several months. I
Hon. MEMBERS : Add it !
think the common sense of that matter was
The Hon. E.BARTON: As that seems to really put by the hon. and learned mem-
be the general view, I would ask, sir, that the ber, Mr. Symon, that is, let us do our
motion be amended by adding the words : work industriously, determinedly, not with
and one other representative of each colony to any hurry, but in such a way as to show
be chosen by the representatives thereof.
that we are not paltering with the matter,
Motion, by leave, so amended.
and if we then find that three weeks is
The Hon. E.BARTON:I do not wish to insuficient for this work, if we find at the
detain the Convention at any length. My end of three weeks that there is an abso-
right hon. friend, Sir George Turner, seems lute necessity for our friends from Victoria
to think that if this select committee were to leave, then will be time enough for us
to begin their labours early they would be to consider the question of adjournment.
· working in the dark. Not only are there In answer to what my hon. friend, Mr.
two of the gentlemen named who have Lyne, has said about the secrecy of select
been in the colonies all the time, but the committees, I would like to point out to
other members whose names are to be him that the object of the committee is not
added have remained in the colonies for finally to decide anything; that the whole
the whole time, so that seven out of ten purpose of a select committee of this kind
members of the committee will have had is to formulate proposals for discussion ;
all the opportunities which are available and, therefore, that publicity which would
for knowing what has been said and accompany any debate, the object of which
20
of Draft Bill.
Financial Clauses
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
2
is to come to a final determination, is not man, but was replying to certain remarks
necessary in a case of a select committee, made by Mr. Lyne. I understood that the
while it is absolutely necessary in the case objection to any select committee proceed-
of the debate which follows. There is no ings at all was because the whole of this
one member of this Convention who desires, discussion should take place in public, and
I take it, that our proceedings should be I was pointing out the difficulty of that
conducted with closed doors, but when course. I should like to say also that, with
there is a necessity for negotiations and a Convention of fifty members discussing
discussion between hon. members consti- a matter which really belongs to financial.
tuting a select committee for the purpose experts, there is much greater difficulty
of arriving not at a conclusion but at some in coming to a sound conclusion without
proposal to be laid before the Convention having some proposals formulated by those
until they finish their labours the whole experts than there would be if we had
of that matter is in a state of flux. These their suggestions before us in a concrete
matters are mere suggestions or proposals, form. I am not of the opinion that there
and it is not until they come before us in was any undue hurry about this matter in
the shape of a report by the committee Adelaide. The Finance Committee, no
that the Convention can deal with them doubt, found this a very difficult nut to
by way of final decision. That is the time crack ; but that committee sat for about
when, of course, the public will naturally ten days, and the other committee who
expect to be present, and there is not one revised their labours—the Committee of
inember of this Convention who would for Treasurers--sat for several days in addi-
an instant deny their right to be present. tion.
That that discussion can take place between Hon. MEMBERS: No!
the members of the committee without the The Hon. E. BARTON: They sat for
necessity of having a press report of their two or three days from the time they were
proceedings is to me such an obvious thing appointed.
that I think reflection demonstrates to us The Right Hon. G. H. REID: During
that we cannot adopt a proceeding of that odd hours !
kind in any way. If we are to leave the The Hon. E. BARTON: I think Mr.
proceedings of the select committee open Holder will hear me out that it was some
to reporting by the press at every stage of days from the time he made the suggestion
their proceedings, the result would be that that they should sit together for this pur-
there would be such accounts and such pose and the date when they presented the
riticisms taking place on the various clauses which were afterwards laid before
stages of that discussion as would tend, the Convention. No doubt those clauses
not to enlighten but to mislead the public commended themselves to the Convention
mind, and as would tend to cause the mem- more rapidly for the reason that they were
bers of the public to come to a conclusion at that time the best proposals put before
upon the intentions and the work of that them. Because they have received some
coinmittee which would not be the real criticism since, it does not follow that
conclusion to be gathered from their final even now they may not emerge from the
work.
fire of criticism in this Convention not
Mr. GLYNN : The amendment does not very much modified. All I have to say
suggest that!
about it is this : that not being skilled in
The Hon. E. BARTON: I was not re- finance, I prefer to leave the formulation
ferring to the amendment of the hon. gentle- of proposals to those who know more
59
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Drafting Committee.
21
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
Drafting Committee.
about these matters than I do. I hope He said : It will be clear to hon. members
that none of the remarks I have made were that there will be a considerable necessity
uncalled for, and I trust that my right for drafting as we go on with the various
hon. friend, Sir George Turner, will find proposals and suggestions that will be
as we go on with our discussions that there
before us, including the proposals which
is a general spirit in the Convention to have been made by the various legisla-
avoid any undue waste of time and delay. tures, and it can scarcely be expected of
I am quite sure we shall all co-operate to any of us that amendments we shall adopt
that end, that none of us will make speeches in the course of debate will exactly be in
which we consider unnecessary ; that while the strict form in which we should like to
there are matters for due discussion, that see them in the bill. It is therefore advis-
discussion will be to the point, and that able for us to have the assistance of a
our labours will be directed to the doing of committee. I have mentioned the names
good work, because the very best work in of the previous Drafting Committee in
the world can sometimes be done without this motion, because I think, from what I
any unnecessary delay. If we avoid un- have heard from various quarters, that the
necessary delay, and at the same time apply Convention is fairly satisfied with the way
our best faculties to the work we have
in which they performed their duties. It
before us—and it may be of course that has been suggested to me that additional
in doing that we shall have to forego some names might be added. The members of
of the festivities intended for us--if we the Drafting Committee, I am sure, would
act in that way there is then a chance of welcome assistance; but the only question
our completing our work in the three weeks, is whether, when you have a committee
and if we fail to do that I am quite sure consisting of four or five members, the
every consideration will be extended to work of that committee would be short-
my right hon. friend, Sir George Turner, ened by the addition of other gentlemen
and those who accompany him.
engaged in such a work as drafting. What-
Amendment agreed to.
ever is done in that regard, it must be at
Resolved : (1) That Chapter IV of the Draft once understood, will not be viewed with
Constitution be referred to a select committee
the slightest jealousy by any member of
for consideration and report, with power to send
the Drafting Committee.
for persons and papers.
Mr.JAMES (Western Australia) [226]:
(2) That such committee consist of Mr. Reid,
Sir George Turner, Mr. Holder, Sir Philip Fysh,
This Drafting Committee, I understand,
and Sir John Forrest, and one other represen- was appointed by the Constitutional Com-
tative of each colony, to be chosen by the repre- mittee, in April last. This is the first
sentatives, thereof.
opportunity the Convention, as a whole,
(3) That it be an instruction to the committee
to have the evidence given by experts or statis-
have had of dealing with the question, and
ticians to the committee printed, and copies of
I venture to think that this committee,
such evidence and of any statistics or reports by being enlarged, will be considerably
furnished to the committee, be laid on the table
strengthened. I do not for one moment
of the Convention.
desire to take up a position which would
DRAFTING COMMITTEE.
suggest that members of this Convention
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
are competent to criticise in detail the draft-
Wales) [2:24] rose to move :
ing of the 1897 hill. But the impression
produced on my mind is that the drafting is
That Sir John Downer, Mr. R. E. O'Connor,
and the mover be reappointed a drafting com-
not an improvement on the drafting of
mittee.
the 1891 bill. It does not appear to me
22
Drafting Committee.
Drafting Committee.
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
was.
to be so clear cut as the bill of 1891 tion against any defect of draftsmanship.
For that reason I think it would be With that object I desire to move as an
advisable that there should be some new amendment:
minds on this committee, not only for the That the following names be added to the
purpose of giving us, perhaps, a better bill, inotion :- “The President, Mr. Symon, and Mr.
Isaacs."
but also for the purpose of saving, not the
Amendment proposed.
time of the Drafting Committee, but the
time of the Convention. In this, the last
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania)
stage of the bill, the cminent lawyers we [2.30]: I do not think we can improve on
have in the Convention will feel that their the proposal before the Convention. We
names will be, to a large extent, bound up
shall do more harm than good by enlarging
with the drafting of the bill, although they
the committee. I think it would be best
themselves are not on the Drafting Com-
to leave the matter in the bands of the
mittee. They will feel therefore bound to gentlemen named in the motion.
deal with these details more than they did The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South Aus-
at our meeting in April last. Hon. members tralia) (2:31]: I join with my friend from
will no doubt remember that several objec- Tasmania in submitting that the smaller
tions were taken then, some of which were the Drafting Committee the better, and
argued at length, and most of them were the more expeditiously will it do its work.
left to the Drafting Committee to settle. I am perfectly certain there is not one men-
If we have members of the Convention ber of the Convention who will venture to
who are well qualified to take a position object to the three names suggested. In
on the Drafting Committee, discussing all yourself, Mr. President, Mr. Syinon, and
these details in the Convention, we shall Mr. Isaacs we have three of the most
have the time of the Convention consider- qualified men in Australia so far as drafts-
ably taken up in that way. It is far better manship is concerned. But that is not
that these matters should be discussed the question. The question is, "Is it ad-
across a table by members of a committee visable to make the Drafting Committee.
than that they should be discussed here too large?” We are all under great obli-
in open Convention. In common with gation to the Drafting Committee who
the rest of the Western Australian dele- acted in South Australia. Their work
gates I left early on the last occasion. I was most arduous. They not only had to
think when we left in April last we had take a leading part in the debates of the
simply dealt with the question of money
Convention itself, but they had to work
bills. If I remember rightly, we had a all through the night almost, in some in-
very long argument, almost at the first stances; and the fact that the bill is not
section brought before the Convention, drafted in, perhaps, the best possible
on a mere question of draftsmanship. manner, is not due to any fault on their
Such arguments are likely to be increased part, but is due to the fact that the Con-
considerably unless we have on the Draft- vention itself made alterations in their
ing Committee those men, who by virtue drafting. In every bill which comes be-
of their attainments, are entitled to be fore any legislature, when amendments are
there, and who, feeling that their names moved in Committee, and those amend-
and reputation are bound up with the ments are not finally submitted to the
draftmanship of the bill, will consider that draftsman of the bill, defects will occur;
they are bound to take every objection and the defects which occur in this bill, I
which strikes them as being a good objec- 'take it, are due, not to any fault or want
[Mr. James.
Drafting Committee.
Drafting Committee.
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
23
+
.
of ability on the part of the Drafting Convention, and I feel extremely obliged
Committee, but to those circumstances to for the remarks which have been made by
which I have referred, which rendered it some of my hon. friends. At the same time
impossible for them to review their own I cannot help thinking that three is quite
work. I do not wish to make any remark large enough a numberfor the Drafting Com-
which can possibly be construed into a mittee, and I think we should act wisely in
want of appreciation of your great talents not augmenting that number. Those hon. .
as a draftsman, Mr. President, and of the gentlemen have had a great deal of trouble
undoubted ability of Mr. Symon and Mr. in doing the work they have done, and they
Isaacs in that respect; but I do think it know that they can confidently rely on the
will be a mistake to make the Drafting assistance of every member of the Conven-
Committee too large.
tion at any time and in any manner they
The PRESIDENT: May I be permitted, desire. Therefore, I think, having the
as my name has been mentioned, to say fullest regard for the undoubtedly strong
that I think the old Drafting Committee arguments which have been urged on one
are entitled to our hearty thanks, our loyal side, the balance of convenience and advis-
support, our generous aid; and whether or ability will be not to increase the number
not I have the honor of being officially of the Drafting Committee beyond three.
associated with them, they can command The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
my humble services in any capacity. (Tasmania) [2:37]: I think it is impossible
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New to close our eyes to the fact that the appoint-
South Wales) (2:34]: No one has a higher ment of any additional members of the
feeling than I have of the efficiency of the Drafting Committee will seem something
work of the gentlemen who composed the like a slur upon the existing committee.
Drafting Committee in Adelaide, and I HON. MEMBERS : No, no !
am very glad to see that we shall have a The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It is not
chance of enjoying the benefit of their a personal matter!
labours now.
Now that we are approach- The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON:I
ing a final settlement of this measure, it is, will put it that it will convey the idea that
to my mind, a matter of the very greatest we regard as necessary a further strength-
importance that we should strengthen this ening of the committee, and I think none of
committee. I absolutely believe that the us would desire to convey that idea. I am
inclusion of the names suggested will be informed on the best authority that Sir
a wise step. I absolutely believe it will Reginald Frederick Palgrave, clerk of the
strengthen the hands of our three friends British House of Commons, has expressed
who bave had this burden cast upon them, the highest sense of the statesmanship and
and that the results in the end will be more draftsmanship of the bill as it has been
satisfactory to them and to us; and if we prepared. The great bulk of the work of
can hope for the benefit of the services of drafting has been completed—completed,
the three gentlemen named, I, for one, we must all admit, with most excellent
will most cordially and heartily support the results; and whilst those gentlemen who
amendment which has been moved.
have been mentioned as additional mem-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) bers of the committee would no doubt add
[2-35]: As I am one of the gentlemen whose to the strength of any committee chosen
names have been mentioned, I desire to say for that particular purpose, they have told
that, in this and in all other matters, I am us that they are quite prepared to give
only too willing to give my services to the their assistance wherever
may be called
24.
Drafting Committee.
Drafting Committee.
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
r
for in the preparation or completion of the their ability, and I am glad we do; in fact,
draft bill. I hope we shall continue to over the length and breadth of Australia
support the more limited committee which they are recognised as eminent men in
has done its work so well, and which is their profession. I, as a representative of
the most convenient committee as to num- South Australia, would regard it as a great
bers we could very well have.
complimentifthosegentlemen were elected;
The Hon. J.H.HOWE(South Australia) but, as the hon. member, Sir Richard
[2.39]: Iagreeentirely with the last speaker. Baker, has pointed out, I do not see that
I think, so far as I am able to judge as a lay- there is any occasion for the appointment
man, that the bill drafted in Adelaide is as of additional members to the committee,
plain as it possibly can be. One may read and although it would give South Aus-
it as he runs. I do not think the worthy tralia 50 per cent. of the voting power on
representative from Western Australia has the committee, I shall vote against it.
done that credit to the draftsmen of the bill The Hon. H. DOBSON(Tasmania)[2-11:
which they deserve. I am quite willing to I hope that this will be the last time during
believe that the hon. gentleman is a judge the sittings of this Convention that, when a
in regard to that upon which he has ex- suggestion is made to strengthen a commit-
pressed his opinion. I recognise that he is tee or to help forward the most important
the leader of the bar in the colony from work that we have in hand, hon. members
which he comes, and which he ably repre- will be charged with having a want of confi-
sents; but, at the same time, I do not think dence in others. I think that anything of
he told us that the bill could bear any that kind is altogether to be deprecated.
comparison, for its clearness and distinct- We want to do our work in the best possible
ness, with the bill of 1891. I have heard way, and I am one of those who agree with
opinions passed by eminent men, and I the hon.member, Mr.James, that the Draft-
have also read them in the public prints, ing Committee can be strengthened, and
to the effect that the bill, as drafted by the that, when the whole thing is over, the
Adelaide Convention, is a decided im- committee will thank us for having added
provement on the bill of 1891, and small to their number, and that the Convention
credit would it be to those who had the also will thank us for having done so. I
benefit of the earlier work if they could think that it is an idle waste of time to dis-
not have perfected it. I have heard that cuss this matter. We all have the greatest
the hon. member has had certain pro- possible confidence in the Drafting Com-
mises of support.
mittee who served us in Adelaide. I think
Mr. JAMES : Nothing of the sort ! we were all astonished at the marvellous
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Well, then, I way in which they put into shape the
have been incorrectly informed. I beg the ideas-even the inconsistent ideas—which
hon. member's pardon. I was going to re- we gave them. I suggest that we should
mind the hon. member that, if he were to add to the Drafting Committee for this
take a few more hon. members into his confi. reason alone: If the Drafting Committee,
dence before amendments were sprụng upon consisting of three members, sit at the
this Assembly, it would, perhaps, facilitate table drafting every clause and every
business. Although I hail from South amendment, I take it that you want at
Australia, I recognise that the amendment least two other members to receive from
means that South Australia will have three them their draft as they settle it, and to
members on the Drafting Committee go through the bill line by line, separately
that is, half the number. We all admit and by themselves, to see if they can find
[The Right IIon. Sir E. Braddon.
Drafting Committee.
25
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
Drafting Committee.
1
. mistakes in it; and I will undertake to say aware until I heard my name mentioned
that they will find mistakes in it- perhaps by the hon. member who moved the amend-
only one or two trivial mistakes—which ment that it was intended to increase the
hon. members, devoting hours to it, will, strength of the Drafting Committee in the
perhaps, not perceive, but which those hon. way suggested, nor that my name was to
gentlemen, devoting their fresh minds to be associated with it in any way whatever,
it, will see.
and I think that that fact may be accepted
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : A mis- as a testimony that iny hon. friend from
take of one word might make it read Western Australia certainly did not act in
ridiculously!
collusion, if I may so express it, with any
The Hon. H. DOBSON: That is true. of the lawyers whose names have been
The Drafting Committee have borne the mentioned. I will only say this further :
heat and burden of the day. I suggest that I do not believe that in any assembly in
you, sir, should be added to the committee, the world, or in any body of the profes-
and that the two other hon, members should sion, you would be able to find three men of
keep themselves in reserve to take from greater capacity for the work which they
the committee the sheets as they complete undertook than the three members of the
them, and go through them with infinite Drafting Committee selected in Adelaide. .
pains, in a separate room, to see if they can That is my deliberate opinion, and, although
find any mistake. Every lawyer knows I also feel that it is undesirable to make
that when a mistake is made in a deed or comparisons, I do not agree with my hon.
an act it is, in two out of three cases, done friend who moved the amendment that
when making an alteration. You make the result of their labours will not bear
an amendment and do not see the effect of comparison with the bill of 1891. I think,
it on some clause perhaps ten pages off. in all humility, quite the opposite. But that
For that reason, I think that the Drafting is not the point. The point is, whether our
Committee might be assisted in their labours will be brought to a better issue,
labours by the addition of two or three and more easily and readily, by strengthen-
hon. members.
ing the Drafting Committee. I am not
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (2:44): going to argue either in favour of or against
As my name has been associated with this it; but I will recall to the recollection of
amendment, may I be permitted to say a the Convention the fact that, in Adelaide,
few words? I rather deprecate the effort after we had come together in Committee
which seems to have been made to create of the Whole, a number of suggestions
some kind of personal feeling, or some sort were made—my hon. and learned friend,
of personal irritation in relation to a matter Mr. Isaacs, made some, and other hon.
with which every one of us is concerned- members made others, and they were met
to see that the best is done for the object we by the remark, “Oh, these are mere draft-
have in view. If I thought, for one moment, ing amendments, and it is hardly worth
that the object of the mover of the amend- while taking up the time of the Commit-
ment was to cast any reflection on the old tee upon them.” I think that I do not
Drafting Committee, or to deprecate in the say for certain, but possibly—the enlarge-
slightest degree the able and splendid work ment of the Drafting Committee might
which they did for us in Adelaide, I should prevent that result. I do not know whe-
immediately desire leave to intimate the ther it would or would not. But, at any
withdrawal of my name.
But I do not rate, I may say that I have the most im-
view it in that way at all. I was not plicit confidence in the Drafting Committee
26
Drafting Committee.
Drafting Committee.
[3 Sept., 1897.]
as already constituted. Their work does ten. Inasmuch as no member of the Con-
them and the Convention infinite credit. vention considered that in agreeing to that
My hon..friend who moved the amendment amendment we were showing discourtesy
did so, as I thought, with the most perfect to the Treasurers of the different colonies,
courtesy, although he expressed his own I do not think it is right to suggest now
individual opinion upon one or two matters, that if we increase the number of the Draft-
and I think it is our duty-at least, I feel ing Committee we shall be showing dis-
it to be my duty, as one of those whose courtesy to the three able gentlemen who
names have been mentioned—to submit formed that committee in Adelaide. I
myself to the general opinion of the Con- should like to say that I always considered
vention, and whether the committee is or it a misfortune that you, Mr. President,
is not enlarged and strengthened, I shall were not selected as one of the Drafting
always be delighted, as it is my duty, to Committee at Adelaide, because your
lend every assistance to those gentlemen, labours in connection with the bill of 1891
whoever they may be, who constitute the eminently fitted you to act on that com-
Drafting Committee, and to be of what- mittee. With regard to the Attorney-
ever service I can in making the bill of General of Victoria, I regret that there was
such a character that it will redound to our not a single delegate from Victoria ap-
credit in the shape of a measure so framed pointed to the Drafting Committee at Ade-
that he who runs may read.
laide. I think that was a great mistake,
Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania) (2:49]: It was and the learned Attorney-General of Vic-
stated by my right hon. friend, the Premier toria showed us, by his able criticism of the
of Tasmania, that if we were to increase bill as drafted in Adelaide, how competent
the number of the members of the Draft- he is to form a member of the Drafting
ing Committee we should cast a slur upon
Committee. I therefore think that the in-
them, and be showing them discourtesy. clusion of his name will add strength to the
I should like to point out that we have committee. With regard to the other gen-
just increased the number of members who tleman whose name has been mentioned-
have to consider Chapter IV of the draft Mr. Symon-I should like to say that he
constitution. No member of the Conven- was chairman of the Judiciary Committee
tion ventured to suggest that we were and is responsible for the drafting of all the
casting a slur upon the members of that clauses in the bill which relate to the judici-
committee when we increased its number ary.
These clauses have been criticised
from five to ten.
rather severely by no less an authority than
An Hon. MEMBER : There were origin- Sir Samuel Griffith, and I think it would
ally twenty members on the Finance Com- be an advantage to the Convention if Mr.
mittee, and the number has been reduced Symon's name were added to the list of
to ten!
the committee in order that he mightshow
Mr. CLARKE: The Finance Commit- why these clauses should stand in the form
tee originally consisted of twenty mem- in which they are at present. I support
bers, but was reduced to five at Adelaide. the addition to the committee of the gen-
We remitted the consideration of the finan- tlemen who have been named, and, but
cial question to a committee consisting of for the argument that we should not make
the Treasurers of all the colonies, and, so the committee too large, I should like to see
far as I am aware, none of the colonies has upon it another representative from Vic-
more than one Treasurer. Today we in- toria. Before I sit down, I should like to
creased the number of the committee to refer to a remark of the hon. member, Mr.
[Mr. Symon.
Drafting Committee.
27
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
Drafting Committee.
Howe, who deprecated the action of the
bon. member, Mr. James, in springing the
amendment upon the Convention without
first-submitting it to other hon. members.
I do not know that there is a rule binding
members of the Convention to show their
amendments to Mr. Howe or to anyone
else, to secure their approval before moving
them. I consider that Mr. James acted
correctly in not submitting his amendment
to Mr. Howe. As Mr. James is one of the
youngest members of the Convention, and
as I am another very young member, I wish
to say that, throughout the sittings of the
Convention, I shall retain to myself full
authority to submit any amendment with-
out showing it to any other hon. member.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
tralia) [2:53]: As Iundertook to second the
amendment, I should like to say, in order
to remove any impression that this is a cau-
cus movement, that I believe that I am the
only member of the Convention to whom
Mr. James bas spoken upon this matter, and
he is certainly the only member to whom I
have spoken of it. If there is an impres-
sion that this motion is going to be gener-
ally supported, I can assure hon. members
that it will be supported because it appeals
to the appreciation of the Convention that
there should be some addition to the num-
ber of the Drafting Committee-nốt be-
cause of any doubt as to the ability of the
gentlemen who formed the committee at
Adelaide, and whose arduous labours have
been fully appreciated by every member of
the Convention, and by every colonial
legislature
An HON. MEMBER : Still that doubt is
implied !
The Hon. J.H.GORDON:Idonot think
that it is implied. If I thought that the
slightest suggestion of a reflection upon the
members of the Drafting Committee were
implied in this proposal to increase the
number of the committee, I would ask leave
of my hon, friend, Mr. James, to withdraw
my promise to support him. I do not think
that there is. I do not think that there is
an idea in the minds of any member of the
Convention which could be construed into
an imputation upon the Drafting Commit-
tee, whose labours have been well described
by Mr. Symon as most admirable ; but I
am sure that hon, members will see that it
is proper that, at any rate, a representative
from the great colony of Victoria should
be a member of the committee, especially
since among the Victorian representatives
there is so eminent a member of the bar as
Mr. Isaacs. Your own qualifications, Mr.
President, as has been very well put by
Mr. Clarke, and your labours in connection
with the bill of 1891, apart from your gene-
ral reputation as a draftsman, certainly
entitle you to be one of the Drafting Com-
mittee. The name of Mr. Symon can only
strengthen any committee that has to deal
with legal work. I appeal to members of
the Drafting Committee to take my assur-
ance—and I believe that I can speak for
every member of the Convention—that
there is not the slightest suggestion of a
reflection implied.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I have nothing
to say in regard to the discussion which has
taken place, except that those hon. gentle-
men who were associated with me in the
drafting of the bill at Adelaide will, as a
matter of delicacy, abstain from voting,
as I shall.
Question. That the words proposed to
to be added (Mr. James' amendment) be
so added-put. The Convention divided :
Ayes, 20; noes, 21 ; majority, 1.
AYES.
Briggs, H.
Henry, J.
Brunker, J. N.
Holder, F. W.
Carruthers, J. H. Lewis, N. E.
Clarke, M. J.
Lyne, W. J.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Moore, W.
Crowder, F. T. Quick, Dr. J.
Dobson, H.
Reid, G. H.
Gordon, J. H.
Walker, J. T.
Grant, C. H.
Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
Henning, A. H. James, W. H.
28
Commonwealth Bili.
Returns.
. [3 SEPT., 1897.]
Noes.
a properly tabulated statement of the
sug.
Baker, Sir R. C. Higgins, H. B.
gested amendments is not yet in their hands
Berry, Sir G.
Isaacs, I. A.
we should not, in the absence of that docu-
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Brown, N. J.
Peacock, A. J.
ment, make very much progress this after-
-Deakin, A.
Solomon, V. L.
noon. I suggest, therefore, that we should
Douglas, A.
Tren with, W. A.
simply go into Committee pro forma, and
Forrest, Sir J.
Turner, Sir G.
wait until Monday before proceeding with
Fraser, S.
Venn, H. W.
Fysh, Sir P. O. Zeal, Sir W. A.
the reconsideration of the bill. All infor-
Glynn, P. M.
Teller,
mation as to the suggested amendments will
Hassell, A. Y.
Howe, J. H.
then be in our hands. I am sure I can rely
Question so resolved in the negative.
upon hon. members to give their utmost
Original question resolved in the affirm-
attention to the amendments in the time
ative.
available between now and our next meet-
ing, in which event the course now taken
RETURNS: POPULATION, REVENUE, &c.
Ordered (on motion by Mr. WALKER):
will be a saving instead of a loss of
time. I would ask hon. members to con-
That the following returns be prepared and
laid on the table :
sider another question, that is, in view
(1.) Population of each colony on 30th June, of the difficult position, in one sense,
1897.
occupied by the Victorian delegation in
(2.) Revenue for customs and excise for the
year ending 30th June, 1897, showing separ-
having so limited a time at their disposal,
ately the receipts from intoxicants and whether it might not-I do not say it
narcotics.
would-be a desirable thing for the Com-
(3.) Revenue received during year ending 30th
mittee to proceed at once with the more
June, 1897, under the other branches pro-
posed to be transferred to the common-
important questions involved in the bill,
wealth.
that is to say, such questions as represen-
(4.) Expenditure in each colony during year tation in the 'senate, the money powers of
ending 30th June, 1897, under each branch
the houses, the questions of railways and
proposed to be transferred to the common-
wealth.
rivers, and so on. It occurred to me that
(5.) Approximate value of properties to be trans- it would, perhaps, be a fair concession to
ferred to the commonwealth.
make to my hon. friends from Victoria to
The returns to include, and, to show separately,
the figures of each colony represented at this
deal with these principal matters first, and
Convention, with the totals also, and the figures
then to take up the other clauses which
for Queensland finally added. Expenditure to are less important, in the “hope that we
be taken from the estimates if exact figures are might have made such progress by the
not available. If the population or any other
end of three weeks as would enable them
figures are not available, estimates to be made.
The returns to be completed as quickly as
to see that the clauses left for discussion
possible.
would be merely those which were not the
subjects of any suggested amendments. If
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
we can arrive at that position, so much
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
the better; if not, then the question must
Wales) [34] : I move :
be seriously considered whether we should
That the President do now leave the chair,
adjourn, and if so, for how long. It is
and that the Convention resolve itself into Com-
mittee of the Whole to reconsider the Common-
with a view of consulting the convenience
wealth Bill, together with the amendments of hon. gentlemen from Victoria that I
suggested by the various legislatures.
throw out this suggestion.
In making this motion, I think hon. mem- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
bers will agree with me that, inasmuch as (Victoria) [3.7]: In seconding the motion,
Commonwealth of
29
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I would say that if it be my hon. friend's the financial question before the Finance
desire to consult the views of the repre- Committee proceed to formulateany definite
sentatives of Victoria, he will deal first conclusion. I would also like the leader
with the most important of all questions, of the Convention to say whether he pro-
that of finance; for there can be no poses that we should sit at night. We have
doubt that the whole matter will rest upon received a large number of invitations to
this Convention devising some financial entertainments, and want to know whether
scheme which will be acceptable to all the we are to accept these invitations, or to say
colonies.
that, in consequence of our duties here
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is necessary to occupying our time, we shall be unable to
appoint a select committee to deal with the do so. As far as I am personally concerned,
financial clauses, and if we deal with them I feel very strongly that when a body of
in the full Committee, what will be the men come together for the purpose of doing
position of the select committee ?
work, if they are to have a great portion
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I cf their time taken up by attending enter-
think the probabilities are that there will tainments, they cannot give their minds to
be so many suggestions made by hon. gen- what they have to do. When we have a
tlemen relating to the question of finance spare evening the members of each delega-
that we shall not be able in the Conven- tion would like to have an opportunity of
tion to pick out the best one from among quietly talking over matters, and of think-
them, whereas the Finance Committee, ing over what we ought to do next day
having all the necessary information, and when we meet.
when we meet. If the hon. member pro-
having the advantage of the views of poses to sit at night I shall be glad to sup-
representatives as expressed in the Com- port him. That course might, perhaps,
mittee of the Convention, may be able to enable the representatives of Victoria to
pick out one, or to adopt a mixture of get out of the difficulty which we now see
two or more of the schemes which might staring us in the face. Whatever may be
prove satisfactory.
done I would ask my hon. friend to con-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Do I understand sider whether it would not be advisable on
that the right hon. gentleman would pre- Monday to let it be understood that we
fer a discussion upon these clauses in the
shall have a discussion on the whole finan-.
full Committee of the Convention without cial question, and then when other matters,
any conclusion on the part of the select perhaps not so important, are being dis-
committee?
cussed by the Convention, members of the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
Finance Committee may be able to meet
Personally, I undoubtedly would. There
and formulate some scheme.
can be only the one representative from
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
each colony, in addition to its Treasurer, Wales) [3.12] : I shall give my best con-
upon this Finance Committee; and I am
sideration to the suggestion made by the
sure there is more than one member of right hon. gentleman. If there is any
each delegation who considers that he has
way of facilitating the views of the hon.
a scheme which is perfect in itself. There-
member I shall be very glad to do so.
fore, I certainly would like to hear the
Question resolved in the affirmative.
vicws of every representative who has any In Committee :
suggestion to put before us which may help Clause 1 (Short title).
us out of the difficulty. I think the proper The CHAIRMAN [3.13]: Before I put this
course would be to have a discussion upon . clause I think it would perhaps be a fitting
30
Australia Bill.
Commonu'ealth of
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
time to inform the Committee what proce- the same stage arriving at irreconcilable
dure it is intended to adopt. Of course, conclusions ; so that hon, members when
every member of the Committee is aware they take any course as to whether they
that this is not an ordinary bill, and that will or will not adopt a suggestion which
the suggested amendments made by the is practically identical with that made by
various legislatures of the different colonies another legislature, must bear in mind that
are not ordinary amendments. We sit they are settling that question, at all events
here in pursuance of the provisions of an as far as this Committee in its present
act of Parliament of New South Wales stage is concerned. There is another case
called the Federal Enabling Act. By that that will arise ; that is, where some sugges-
measure it is the duty of tbis Convention tion has been adopted, an irreconcilable
to consider the suggested amendments suggestion which is identically the opposite
made by the various legislatures. It, there- of it cannot be considered. With these
fore, seems to me as a matter of law that limitations, I propose, subject to any in-
we are bound to consider those suggestions. structions given by this Convention, to put
I consequently propose to put the various in the order in which they arise the sugges-
suggestions made by the local legislatures, tions made by the various parliaments. A
without motion by any member of the schedule will be presented to this Conven-
Committee, and to put them in the order tion on Monday next, in which these sug-
of sequence in which they come in each gestions will be printed in their order of
clause. That will prevent the necessity of sequence, which I think will facilitate the
members asking leave to withdraw amend proceedings.
ments which they have proposed in order The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic-
that prior amendments may be moved. toria) (3:16]: Do I understand that we are
Of course, as we have to reconsider the not to get the amendments until Monday
whole bill, it will be competent for any
next?
member of the Committee to move any
The Hon. E, BARTON: I think hon. mem-
amendments even though they have not bers will have them to-morrow morning.
been suggested by any of the local legis. There may be typographical corrections. If
latures, or to move amendments on the so they will be redistributed !
amendments which have been suggested The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I hope
by such legislatures. This general rule, we shall get them as early as possible.
however, namely, that all these suggested There is another matter I should like to
amendments must be put, will be subject mention with regard to the discussion of
to certain limitations—those limitations these amendments. Are we to be limited
which standing orders and common-sense to the particular amendment which you,
alike provide. There are three cases which sir, put from the Chair, because, as you
may arise when I shall feel it my duty not mentioned, there may be other amend-
to put the suggestions made by the local ments, either similar or the opposite of
legislatures. Supposing the same or sub- what may be submitted? If we are to fol-
stantially the same amendments have low strict rules, and not be allowed to refer
been suggested by two or more legisla- to anything but the particular amendment
tures. If one of these is carried it will not put from the Chair, we may be shut out
be necessary to put the others. If one of from discussing the whole question. I
these is negatived it will not be possible would therefore suggest that as we are not
to put the others, because of the rule sitting in the ordinary way, great latitude
which prevents the Committee at one and should be afforded to the representatives,
[The Chairman.
Commonwealth of
31:
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
and that; when we are dealing with a par- pressed in the various parliaments, namely,
ticular suggestion, we shall have liberty to whether the suggestions made by the legis-
refer to other suggestions dealing with the lature of a colony—that is, the suggestions
same subject. That, I think, will facilitate agreed to by both houses of a legislature
the business and prevent confusion arising -are alone to be taken, or whether those
later on. I suggest this for consideration, agreed to by each house of each parliament,
so that we may give every opportunity to are to be considered? As regards the sug-
representatives to discuss the whole ques- gestions coming from the Tasmanian Parlia-
tion which may be raised by one particularment, sir, you will perceive that the sugges-
amendment.
tions wbich have been agreed to by both
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South Wales) houses appear in one schedule, and those
[3.18]: I take it that the right hon. mem- agreed to by each house separately are
ber's suggestion is obviously the right one, placed in another schedule.
because it would be extremely difficult for The CHAIRMAN: I have been asked four
us to discuss the suggested amendments by questions which I will answer in order of
any parliament unless we could give rea- sequence.
With reference to the ques-
sons, for instance, why we preferred another tion of the Right Hon. Sir George Turner,
suggestion, and in order to do that we should in my opinion the fullest, freest, most
be able to compare one with another. There ample discussion ought to be allowed on
is another question which I suppose will these suggestions. The members of the
arise, and might be referred to. I am not Committee ought to be allowed to consider
sure whether it was not dealt with by you, the suggestions in groups, if I may so ex-
sir, in your remarks. We are not confined press it. I feel sure that every member of
to the suggestions of the legislatures, be- the Convention is of opinion that the ut-
cause it is the statutory duty of the Con- most deference should be paid to each sug-
vention to reconsider the bill itself, and we gestion of the legislature of each colony, and
must go over every line. Under these cir- in order to give effect to that, I think the
cumstances, I think it would be the duty views expressed by the Right Hon. Sir
of an hon. member, if he wishes to propose George Turner should be adopted by me
an amendment in a clause between two as Chairman of the Committee. In refer-
suggested amendments, not to wait until ence to the question of the hon. and
those two amendments are dealt with, but learned member, Mr. Barton, I think I
to propose it at the proper time as it occurs have already indicated that if any hon.
in the bill. In fact, I think that is the member has an amendment to move, apart
substance of what you, sir, stated.
from the suggestions of the legislatures,
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South Aus- he ought to move that amendment in its
tralia) [3.19]: For the convenience of hon. proper place, either before the first sug-
members, I think it would be better to gestion or between two suggestions, as the
put the suggested amendments after the
case may be. As regards the question of
clause that it is proposed to amend. The the hon, member, Mr. Brown, I cannot take
clause of the bill sought to be amended upon myself the responsibility of drawing
should be printed first, and following that any distinction between suggestions made
should be the suggested amendments of the by two houses of a legislature and sugges-
various legislatures.
tions made by one house. I think it would
The Hon. N. J. Brown (Tasmania) be an invidious thing to penalise those
[3.20]: There is one point as to which con- colonies where they have not had time
siderable difference of opinion has been ex- to obtain a conference between the two
32
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[3 SEPT., 1897.]
It was
SO.
houses; and therefore I will not make any The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
difference whatever between suggestions Wales) [3.25]: This process, which is recom-
which have been concurred in by two mended, would certainly take some time.
legislative bodies and suggestions made by Hon. members may rest assured that there
one legislative body. -
is no disposition to spare the printer for
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South the purpose of the Convention ; but the
Australia) [3.23]: I do not think, sir, you form in which it was proposed to table
have given a reply to my question !
these amendments was before some of us
The CHAIRMAN : That is a matter with yesterday afternoon, including the Presi-
which I have nothing to do.
dent and the Chairman. The number of
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Is it within the clause was given in the margin, and
the power of the Convention to ask you then there were columns showing in their
to do it? I think it would be a great con- proper order, so that the eye could take
venience if it were done.
them in at a glance, the amendments of
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Ask the legislatures, and whether they were
the leader of the Convention !
suggested by one house or two.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I would conceived then that to have the bill in
ask the leader of the Convention if he would one's hands, and to have the tabulated
arrange, for the convenience of hon. mem- statement before one also, with a reference
bers, that each clauseshould be placedin con-' to the number of the clause, would obviate
junction with the suggested amendments. all difficulty of reference, and on compari-
It will save hon. members a great deal of son it seemed so to those who considered
trouble, for they will be able to hold one it, and I think hon, members will find it
paper in their hand instead of having to They will have these things before
hold a number of papers, and to refer from them to-morrow, and if it is discovered
one to the other. It may involve a little that there is any difficulty of reference in
extra printing; but I think the convenience that way, I will do my utmost to see if a
it will afford to hon. members will be more fresh print cannot be made with the clauses
than sufficient to counterbalance the other in the margin.
consideration.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: If the leader
An Hon. MEMBER: Interleaved !
of the Convention will allow me, I will hand
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I do not to him a paper which shows the practice
care whether they are interleaved or placed adopted in Tasmania, and in which there
alongside one another, or whether the is no interleaving
clauses sought to be amended are placed The Hon. E. BARTON: That was con-
at the head of the suggested amendments. sidered, and it was found that it would
The Right Hon. Sir GEORGE TURNER: be utterly impracticable with the number
Will that not take a long time to get of amendments made by the different
ready?
houses to put them in that form. There
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN:I do not would be no possibility of making a con-
think it will take more than a few minutes, venient handy print in that way. As it
because all that you have to do is to put is, the paper will be somewhat bulky,
at the head of each group of amendments but I hope hon. members will find it
the clauses sought to be amended. It will as convenient as possible. If any incon-
not take more than a few minutes to pre- venience should arise, I will do my utmost
pare it, and it will save hours of work for to see it rectified.
each member of the Convention.
Progress reported.
[The Chairman.
Finance Committee.
[6 SEPT., 1897.] Report of Statistician, N.S.W. 33
FINANCE COMMITTEE.
understood that I do not in any way
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South identify myself with the opinions expressed.
Wales) [3.27]: It has been suggested to
I move :
me that it will be convenient if the hon.
That the petition be received, and read.
member at the head of the representatives Motion agreed to.
of each colony will state the name of the
The CLERK read the petition as follows:
hon, member who is to assist the Treasurer
To the Honorable the President and Members of
on the Finance Committee. I understand the Australasian Federal Convention in ses-
that Sir James Lee-Steere has been selected sion assembled :
by the Western Australian representa-
The petition of the undersigned on behalf of
the Australasian National League (in South Aus-
tives, Sir Edward Braddon by the Tas-
tralia) humbly sheweth :
manian representatives, and Mr. Solomon
That your petitioners are of opinion that pro-
by the South Australian representatives.
vision should be made in the preamble of the
I understand also that Mr. Walker will
Commonwealth Bill for the recognition of Al.
mighty God as the Supreme Ruler and the source
assist on behalf of New South Wales. It
of all law and authority.
only remains now for our friends from That your petitioners are of opinion that the
Victoria to declare theirs.
power of the federal parliament to impose direct
taxation should be limited so as to provide that
The PRESIDENT : I understand that it
such taxation should only be imposed in the
is the wish of the Convention that those
event of foreign war.
names should be added to the Finance
That your petitioners are of opinion that the
Committee.
right of appeal by litigants from the decision of
Convention adjourned at 3.28 p.m.
the Australasian courts to her Majesty-in-Council
should still be retained.
That your petitioners are of opinion that the
control and regulation of the river Murray, and
the use of the waters thereof by the federal
parliament, should be extended so as to include
MONDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
all navigable rivers within the commonwealth
and the tributaries thereof.
Petitions-Report of Statistician's Department, New South
That your petitioners are of opinion that the
Wales-Federal Finance-Population and . Electoral suggestion of the South Australian House of
Returns-Commonwealth Bill-Adjournment.
Assembly that the qualification of electors for
the senate, and the house of representatives
should be in each of the states, one adult one
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30 vote should not be agreed to.
That your petitioners are of opinion that the
suggestion of the South Australian House of
PETITIONS.
Assembly that the powers of the federal parlia-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus- ment in reference to postal, telegraphic, tele.
tralia) presented a petition from the Ade- phonic and other like services should be limited
laide Ministerial Association, praying for
to "outside the limits of the commonwealth,”
should not be agreed to.
a recognition of God in the Constitution of
Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that
the Commonwealth.
such amendments may be made in the Common-
Petition received.
wealth Bill during the present session of the
Convention as will give effect to the prayer of
The Hon. Sir R. C.BAKER (South Aus-
your petitionerse
tralia): I have the honor to present a peti-
tion to which twenty-seven signatures are REPORT OF STATISTICIAN'S
attached. Inasmuch as the petition asks
DEPARTMENT, NEW SOUTH WALES.
the Convention not to agree to certain
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria): I desire to
suggestions made by the Legislature of ask a question without notice. I under-
South Australia, I wish it to be distinctiy stand that there is a report extant of the
a.m.
C
34
Commonwealth Bill.
Federal Finance.
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Statistician's Department of New South POPULATION AND ELECTORAL
RETURNS
Wales with regard to financial matters, and
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) rose to move :
I wish to know if it will be made available
That a return be laid before this Convention
to members of the Convention ? I under-
showing, according to the latest available infor-
stand there is a similar report in Victoria, mation,
and that there is no objection to its pro- (1.) The population and number of electors in
duction.
each electoral district for the Legislative
The Hon. E. BARTON. (New South
Assembly of New South Wales ; and
(2.) The population and number of electors in
Wales) : I received a copy of "Notes on
each electoral district for the Legislative
Federal Finance," and I think the paper has Assembly of Victoria.
been distributed to hon, members. A num- He said : I would ask that the Premier of
ber of hon, members have received copies, New South Wales should make this infor-
though some of the reports distributed may mation available as early as convenient,
have miscarried. The matter will be in-
because to be of any use it will be required
quired into, and I have no doubt the hon.
in connection with the debate on the re-
member will receive a copy of the report presentation of the states, which will come
referred to.
on, apparently, very early.
FEDERAL FINANCE.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It will
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia): I beg be done at once !
to ask the Premiers of the colonies repre- Question resolved in the affirmative,
sented in the Convention, and, in the case
of South Australia, the hon. the Treasurer, COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL,
Mr. Holder, whether, for the purpose of
In Committee :
helping the deliberations of the Conven-
Clause 1.
tion, they will lay upon the table copies of
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
all reports presented to their respective Wales) [10.37]: Objection was made at the
governments on the question of the fin-
last sitting by the Right Hon. Sir George
Turner that inasmuch as the financial
ances of the proposed federation, the fin-
ancial clauses of the draft bill, federal con-
question presented the greatest dificulties
with which we should have to deal at this
trol or ownership of the railways. Since
I gave notice of this question, some of the adjourned sitting-or at any rate it was
papers have been presented to the members arguable that it presented as many diffi-
of the Convention.
culties as any other—a discussion should
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do not
be taken first on the financial clauses for
think there will be any objection on the
the information not only of members of
part of any of the Premiers to lay upon
the Convention, but also of the select com-
the table any documents of the character
mittee on finance. Such hon, members as
named, which are not confidential.
have mentioned the matter to me since
The PRESIDENT : Do any of the other that time, appear strongly to approve of
Premiers desire to say anything in reply the suggestion, and I need not say, as far
to the question ?
as I am concerned, that if it would facili-
The Right. Hon. Sir G. TURNER tate business and meet with the conveni-
(Victoria): I agree with the reply of Mr. ence of hon. members, it has on that
Reid.
ground every reason in its favour. If,
The Hon. W. MOORE (Tasmania): As therefore, it will be a means of facilitating
far as the Premier of Tasmania is con- the consideration of this very important
cerned, I think there will be no objection question, I shall have no objection to
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
35
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
move the postponement of clauses from 1 ment to the committee as to the position
to 88. That would include the require assumed by the legislatures of their respec-
ment of a uniform tariff within two years, tive colonies with regard to these clauses.
the requirement that there should be free- That would be a very convenient way of
trade within the commonwealth, the basis opening the discussion.
of distribution before the uniform tariff is The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
imposed, and the basis of distribution South Wales) [10:42]: As the Colonial
afterwards. We could then discuss the Treasurer of the colony of New South
clauses from 88 to.93, inclusive, as a whole Wales, I have to make a very short state-
without being restricted in any way.
Of ment of the nature of the amendments
course, in moving the postponement of suggested by the two houses of our legis-
clauses from 1 to 88, I shall ask that lature. It is understood thởt in making
clauses like clause 84 shall, for the present, this statement we do not propose to in-
at any rate, be accepted as necessary pro- dulge in any comment or argument; but
visions in any federal commonwealth- simply to give the Convention, in the
that is to say, that the federation should shortest possible form, the substance of the:
have to collect the customs revenue, and suggestions which have been made. In
that there should be freedom of intercourse order to do that I must go back to clause:
between the various parts of the common- 84, which vests exclusive power in the
wealth. Therefore, if the clauses I have parliament of the commonwealth to impose
mentioned-say, from 88 inclusive--afford custom duties and duties of excise, and to
us a sufficient basis for the discussion de-
grant bounties after the passing of a uni-
sired, I would ask that the prior clauses form tariff. I have to state that the Legis
be postponed. I take it that you, Mr. lative Council of this colony suggests the
Chairman, in view of the kind of discus- omission of that clause. With regard to
sion which is suggested, will not ask for a clause 86, which provides that property
vote upon any of those clauses at present, used in connection with state services:
or upon any amendments which may be taken over by the commonwealth, should
proposed, but will leave all suggestions in vest in the commonwealth subject to cer-
regard to them for future consideration. tain provisions as to valuation and pay.
I move :
ment, both houses of this legislature sug-
That the consideration of the clauses, 1 to 87 gest its omission. I may make the remark,
inclusive, be postponed.
however, that I believe that was done
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Will simply in order that some other clause of
the hon, and learned member invite a dis- a similar character and more fully con-
cussion on clause 88 or clause 89?
sidered, should be introduced. Clause 88
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will invite provides that uniform duties of customs.
a discussion on the bunch of clauses com- should be imposed within two years after
mencing with clause 88. Let there be one the establishment of the commonwealth.
discussion.
Both houses suggest the omission of that
Motion agreed to.
clause. With regard to clause 89, which
Clause 88. Uniform duties of customs shall be
provides for free-trade amongst the feder:
imposed within two years after the establish-
ated colonies after the imposition of a uni-
ment of the commonwealth.
form tariff, the Legislative Assembly sug-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I understand there gests an amendment preserving to each
is some intention on the part of the several federated state the power of regulating the
Colonial Treasurers to make a short state- liquor and opium traffic in accordance with
36
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
the laws of the states as to the sale of such the Legislative Council. The Legislative
articles. The Legislative Council suggests Assembly suggests, with regard to clause
the omission of clause 90, which provides 84, that we should strike out the words,
for the keeping of accounts of the revenue and to grant bounties upon the production or
and expenditure of the commonwealth, export of goods.
and of what is due to the states. Both There are consequential amendments
houses suggest the omission of clause 91, throughout that clause. They suggest that
which places limits on federal expenditure clause 92 should be omitted altogether. I
during the first three years. Clause 92 understand the reason of that is that they
provides for the first five years of a uni- do not agree with the scheme, but they
form tariff, a scheme for the distribution have not suggested any other. Then they
of the surplus, and stipulates that each
propose a new clause (A) after clause 93,
state should, for those five years, keep back to the effect that where any goods have
each year at least as much as during the been imported into a state before the im-
year preceding the imposition of uniform
position of the uniform duties are, during
duties. The Legislative Council suggests the first year of uniform duties, exported
the omission of that clause; but the Legis- into any other state, we should authorise
lative Assembly suggests the omission of the collection on such exportation of the
certain words and the insertion of other
amount of the difference between the duty
words, leaving the parliament of the com. chargeable on such goods before the im-
monwealth free to raise what revenue it
revenue it position of uniform duties in the state from
pleases, and to distribute any surplus on a which they are exported, and the duty
basis to be determined by the federal par- chargeable on such goods before the im-
liament. Both houses suggest the omission position of uniform duties in the state into
of clause 93, which provides for the distri- which they are imported, or the uniform
bution of surplus after the first five years duty, whichever shall be less. Those are
on a per capita basis. With regard to clause the only amendments suggested by the
94, applying the audit of the accounts of Parliament of Victoria.
the commonwealth to the laws of the seve- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
ral states, the Legislative Council suggests tralia) [10:50]: The only amendment pro-
its omission; and if the inter-state commis- posed by the South Australian Parliament
sion may be considered, as I think it can in these clauses is to the effect that liberty
be, a part of the financial scheme, I have should be given to regulate the opium and
to mention that both houses suggest the alcoholic imports of trade within the states.
omission of both clauses relating to that The recommendations are precisely similar
commission. Both houses suggest the to those made upon the same subject by the
omission of clause 98, which gives the colony of New South Wales. All the other
federated parliament power to take over clauses of the Commonwealth Bill were
wholly or partially the public debts of the passed as printed.
states. That is the substance of the sug-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
gestions of the houses of Parliament in
(Victoria): I have been somewhat misled
New South Wales with reference to the
by an error in the printing of this docu-
financial clauses.
ment. On page 49 hon. members will see
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
under the heading “Tasmania":
(Victoria) [10:48]: With regard to the
That the following resolution be sent to the
colony of Victoria, no suggestions respect-
Federal Convention as a suggestion :-“That in
ing financial matters have been made by the opinion of the Legislative Council of Victoria
[The Rigiat Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
37
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
the finance and trade proposals of the Common- only, and leaving the representatives to
wealth Bill require further inquiry and consider-
apply it to each of their own states sepa-
ation.'
rately—as the population increases, taking
I did not notice that until my hon. friend,
a census year by year, it is proposed that
Mr. Fraser, pointed it out to me.
the amount of debt shall be cancelled. So
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) that, ultimately, the commonwealth will
[10:51]: I regret that I was not in my place have acquired the whole of the debts of
earlier in the morning. I understand that
the various states, and the various states
the intention is that the Treasurer of each
will be relieved entirely. Now, it may
colony or state shall briefly announce the
be said, of course, that this may appear at
amendments which that state has proposed
first to be very much to the advantage of
in respect to the financial provisions of the
those who are most indebted. But I would
Commonwealth Bill. If that be the case, my
like representatives to bear in mind that
statement may be exceedingly brief. The
directly we have established the common-
purpose of the amendment suggested by wealth it is presumed that we shall be
the Tasmanian legislature with respect to
working for the common weal, and that the
finance is, first of all, to secure the taking
revenue from customs will be divided per
over of the whole of the debts of the various
capita. If that revenue be revenue belong-
states by the commonwealth. It starts on
ing to the states per capita, then, as the
the assumption that the minimum of the
population of the various states increases,
debts of the whole of the colonies, or of
they will be contributing more and more
each of the states separately, is £40 per
year by year to the commonwealth, and so
head, and it is assumed that all amounts
meet the extra expenditure incurred for in- .
beyond the £40 per head shall be taken
terest upon their extra debt. I I presume
over in a separate form. For the whole of
that that is all the statement that is re-
the debts the interest is to be paid by the quired of me now. I understand that there
federal executive or parliament; but for will be other amendments with respect to
such sum as each state is indebted in ex-
these various proposals; but they will
cess of the £40 per head, each state shall
come hereafter, and I shall, therefore, re-
give to the commonwealth debentures or
serve any elaboration of my remarks on
bonds. To give an example, Tasmania at this subject for the proper and more con-
the present time is indebted £47 per head. venient season.
It will, then, need to give to the federal ex- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
ecutive bonds to the extent of £7 per head (Western Australia) (10:57]: The amend-
of its population, and such bonds will be re- ments made by the Legislative Council
deemed, as I will proceed to state. The and Legislative Assembly of Western
whole of the interest, as I have already Australia in regard to these clauses now
said, is to be paid by the commonwealth under notice-clauses 88 and 98-V
or federal executive. But that portion of not very numerous, although, I have no
the interest which relates to the excess of doubt, they will require a good deal more
the debt over £40 per head is to be borne consideration than we were able to give
separately by the state so indebted. Tas- them during the short time at our dis-
mania, therefore, in giving bonds for £7 posal. Both the Legislative Council and
per head, will be responsible to the common- the Legislative Assembly suggested that
wealth for the interest on that £7
per
head. clause 88 should be struck out, and that
But with respect to the excess of £40—1 in clause 89 the words in the third
am following up the example of Tasmania line, “throughout the commonwealth"
were
38
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
ex-
bé struck out and the words, “between the public debt of the states as it existed
the states" be inserted. The reason for at the time of the commonwealth to the
that was that it was thought that the words extent of £60 per head of the adult males
throughout the commonwealth" were too residing in each state. Of course, £CO was
wide, and might relate to many things to put down in order that the matter might
be done by the state itself—in regard to be discussed; but the principle there laid
licenses, &c.--and that the words “be- down was one that met with the approval
tween the states " seemed to be quite wide of the Legislative Assembly. With regard
enough, and to carry out what the Con- to this matter, there was no suggestion by
vention desired. An addition was made the Legislative Council. The word "rat-
to clause 89 with regard to opium and able" in the third line from the bottom of
alcohol, similar to that proposed and car- the page was struck out, and in the last
ried by the Legislative Assembly of New
line but one the words "adult males" were
South Wales. That was added to the omitted. The principle of the clause, as
clause by the Legislative Assembly of we amended it, is that the federal parlia-
Western Australia ; it was not dealt with ment shall be compelled to take over the
by the Legislative Council. Clause 90 debts of the colonies in a fixed proportion
was amended by adding the word “ per
head of the adult males in each state.
cise" after the word "customs," so that Those were all the important amendments
the clause should read :
suggested by the Legislative Council and
Until uniform duties of customs and excise the Legislative Assembly of Western
have been imposed, and for five years after- Australia.
wards.
The Hon. E, BARTON: I think that hon.
Clause 91 was struck out by both Council
members who wish to address themselves
and Assembly. In regard to clause 92,
in a broad way to the question of finance
the same alterations were proposed by both
will have an opportunity to do so now
the Legislative Council and the Legislative
before the Finance Committee commences
Assembly. Sub-clauses I to y were struck
its practical sittings.
out, and it was suggested that the clause
Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales)
should be made to read :
[11.4]: Although it was only this morn-
During the first five years after uniform duties
ing that I understood that we were to de-
of customs have been imposed the amount to
vote ourselves to the question of finance
be paid to each state shall not be less than the
amount returned to each state during the year
in the first part of our sittings, I recognise
last before the imposition of such duties.
that as most of the Premiers of the colo-
In clause 93 the words
nies are also the Treasurers of those colo-
numbers of their people as shown by the latest nies, and as they have only just returned
statistics of the commonwealth
from England and have had a mass of
were struck out, and the word's
duties to perforin since, it is scarcely fair
amount of revenue contributed to the common- that we should call upon them at the
wealth
earlier stage of this debate. I do not in-
inserted. That amendment provides that tend to make anything in the way of a
the distribution among the several colonies second reading speech, because I am sure
month by month shall be proportionate to that the object which we now hare in view
the amount of revenue contributed to the to be as practical as possible. Neither
commonwealth. Clause 98 was amended do I intend to address myself, with the
so as to make it obligatory upon the federal short time I have had for preparation whilst
parliament to take over à proportion of sitting here, to any matters of mere verbal
t
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
39
[6 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
Fevenue.
alteration. I shall confine my remarks to Mr. MCMILLAN : I take it that the
a few of the absolutely salient and vital main subdivision of land revenue is that
questions which, if they could be settled which comes from alienation, either in the
upon some satisfactory foundation, all the payment of instalments on conditional pur-
others ultimately would find themselves chases or by auction sales, which last
in their proper places. We cannot shut amount, as the right bon. gentleman says
our-eyes to the fact that all the difficulties is
very
small now.
which have arisen in regard to this ques- The Right Hon. G. H. REID :
tion of Gnance have arisen out of the Mr. MCMILLAN: No. Although this
character of the different policies into remains to some extent a diminishing quan-
which the various colonies have drifted, tity, it is one of the items. Two-thirds of our
owing to their separation from one another. land is still unalienated, and for practical
Of course, this applies more especially to purposes there is no reason to suppose that
the strong line of fiscal antagonism between because of the increased value of our lands,
New South Wales and all the rest of Aus- and increased occupation, we shall not, for
tralia. But beside that there is another very years to come, have a large advantage in
salient fact in the finance of New South our land revenue over all the other colo-
Wales, which differentiates it from the nies. The other colony which differenti-
other colonies; in other words, our land ates itself in many respects, because of its
If hon. members will turn to youth and the abnormal character of its
that very valuable book of Mr. Coghlan's transactions—I say nothing of those who
called the “ Seven Colonies of Australia," govern it-is Western Australia. You
they will find on page 383 a statement of will find its land revenue, its railway
the relative position of the different colo- revenue, and some of its other sources of
nies as regards their land revenue. They income, to a certain extent of an abnormal
will find that New South Wales receives character. This brings us to the absolute
from every source land revenue equal to root question of colonial finance. I honestly
£1 11s. 7d. per head ; Victoria, 6s. 11d. ; confess that I have tried to weigh this
Queensland, £1 4s. 1d. ; South Australia, question in the scales. I have tried to con-
12s. 5d. ; Western Australia, £1 10s. 5d. ; coct to the best of my ability scheme after
Tasmania, 6s. 5d.; New Zealand, Ss. 5d. scheme which might prevent us from hav-
Mr. GLYNN: Have you the proportion ing to face an unpleasant fact-the peces-
received as rent separate from sales ? sity of insuring under some scheme or other,
Mr. MCMILLAN: Yes.
at any rate for a limited period, some
The Right Hon. G. H. REID :
security for the different Treasurers when
Mr. MCMILLAN: In New South Wales we come together, and give up our customs
it is about half and half. Roughly speak- duties to the federal parliament. I feel,
ing, our total land revenue is about of course, that in dealing with this ques-
£2,000,000, of which £1,160,000 comes tion, besides these differentiations between
from land sales, and the rest from pastoral
the colonies, we are also dealing with an
rents, &c.
The exact amount received absolutely unknown quantity in a uniform
from auction and other classes of sales tariff. It is all well enough for people to
during the years 18:95–6 was £1,158,235, talk and speculate upon that tariff; but I
and from occupation, &c., of Crown land, say most decidedly that when we--those
£859,961.
who will represent the colonies--come
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : There are together in the federal parliament, when,
scarcely any auction sales now!
instead of looking at this question from
40
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
*** [6 SEPT., 1897.]
each particular local standpoint, we look we should come to what is the only rea-
upon it as a united Australia, then in the sonable conclusion, allowing them to de-
union of the conflicting classes of interests cide for themselves in the full light of day
as arising out of one tariff instead of whether or not union is acceptable under
several, it is impossible to say what the those conditions. There is no use in going
character of that tariff will be. Now, with- --and I absolutely object to go-before
out attempting to prophesy, but simply as my constituents as a member of this Con-
a mode of throwing light on the subject, vention to tell them that it is possible by
my own opinion is that when we come some jugglery, by some means or other of
together we shall have to agree upon some which no one can conceive at present, see-
broad revenue-producing tariff which will ing that there are four or five of the colo-
bring in a certain volume of revenue, and nies whose fiscal systems are based on large
the great question whether these colonies customs duties, to unite as one out of these
are to live under a free-trade or protective several colonies without having to alter to
system must, from the peculiar mode in a certain extent our fiscal system.
which we differentiate, be left for some years Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear !
to come. You might have a variety of tariffs Mr. MCMILLAN: I think it is far
under different circumstances. You might better in the earlier years of this federa-
have either a moderate protective tariff or tion, in the first clash of controversy, when
all round ad valorem duties, some of which this country may feel that it is over-
would be protective in their incidence, and
weighted by the opinions of the other colo-
some of which would not. I may'at once nies—it is far better for us to say to them
say, in order to make clear my view on the now what they may expect, than for them
question, that I believe no sensible man to say to us afterwards, “You led us
will think for one moment that revenue for
astray." I come then absolutely to what
the first few years of the federal common- I consider the kernel of this arrange-
wealth will be raised in any way except ment. In the clauses that have been placed
through the customs. Iknow that is a great before us at the previous sittings of the
admission on my part, and on the part—if Convention I see nothing that can be found
he agrees with it—of the right hon. gentle fault with, speaking generally, up to the
man at the head of the New South Wales end of clause 92 without including the
Government.
sub-sections. I am speaking now of the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I cer- mode of getting at the surplus revenue
tainly do not agree with it!
-in regard to matters which we have
Mr. MCMILLAN: To a certain extent thrashed out previously. When we give
we are put in this position : We have to over this great machinery of revenue—the
say to our people that the process of customs, and when the federal government
federation involves an alteration to some take credit for the expenditure on the ser-
extent in our fiscal system. I want to be vices which are relegated to them, I take
still more clear. I am dealing with this it for granted that we all assume there
question now on the understanding that must be a large surplus. The question
we come to some conclusion before this then arises how that surplus is to be dealt
Convention rises, because, having come to with. I may say that it is my present
the last stage of our operations, I consider opinion--although, of course, I am open to
that it is only fair to the Convention, that alter it, if anyone can show me an improved
it is only fair to the people of this coun- scheme that for five years after the com-
try, that having thrashed this thing out, monwealth has produced a uniform tariff
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
41
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
From my
a certain aggregate amount based upon Another Hon. MEMBER : The provision
twelve months of the old tariff should be of the 1891 bill was all right!
guaranteed to them for that period.
Mr. MCMILLAN : I come now to the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: In question of dealing with the surplus in the
what proportion?
future. I have said that I believe every
Mr. McMILLAN : When this question hon. member in this Convention, no matter
was debated in the Finance Committee at what his fiscalviews may be, will agree with
first the word "aggregate” was left out. me that the uniform tariff is an absolutely
Now it was very clear that New South unknown quantity, therefore we are in the
Wales, with a tariff producing about first place trying to do work which is legis-
£1,400,000, through the absolute sweep- lation in this Convention, and, in the
ing away of all protective and other duties, second place, we are trying to legislate
and with that tariff brought into competi- upon an unknown quantity.
tion with the tariff of Victoria, yielding point of view, and of course I speak only
nearly £2,000,000, if the surplus for five for myself, I do not think-and I do not
years were divided upon the actual facts
suppose that even the right hon. gentleman
of the case, would be unfairly treated, at the head of the New South Wales Go-
because hon. members will see this : that vernment will doubt my free-trade prin-
whatever the uniform tariff is, we have ciples
to come in with it. Supposing that when The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Hear,
the uniform tariff came into operation,
hear!
the revenue from New South Wales was Mr. McMILLAN : Speaking for my-
£2,000,000, instead of under her present self I say now—and I want to lose no
tariff, £1,400,000, if we had to take the time—that I have come absolutely to this
surplus on the basis of £1,400,000, we conclusion, that this is the sacrifice of
should be robbed, practically, by the other New South Wales ; although I believe that
colonies. I think that is
very
clear. There- even with that sacrifice, and with the hope
fore, the word “aggregate” was introduced of converting these peoples from fiscal
so that New South Wales should be brought folly to righteousness in the future, there
in equitably with the new tariff, and while will be probably a freetrade Australia in
she did not ask more than her neighbours, a shorter time than some persons imagine.
she got her proper distribution on an But we have to do this, and I say most
equitable basis.
distinctly that if you trust this great
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: What federal parliament with a thousand and
about Western Australia ?
one things, if you trust it with the greatest
Mr. McMILLAN: I am quite willing power of taxation you can possibly conceive,
to confess that there has been no scheme if you trust it with all your rights and
yet in which it has been possible to recon- liberties, with all your international rela-
cile the equities of the case with the pecu- tions, and absolutely with your political
liar position and conditions of Western existence, it is folly to attempt to say that
Australia.
you will not trust it to equitably agree
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Except inter- upon financial matters. Now, you must
state accounts !
recollect this, that by the modus operandi
Mr. McMILLAN: That is what I wish which we adopt in this bill, by declaring
to avoid.
that a certain surplus shall be distributed
An Hon. MEMBER : It is the only safe during a short period—and it is only a
and equitable plan!
short period-you establish a nexus be-
42
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
56 SEPT., 1897.1
tween the provincial and central govern- It has been said by prudent economists
ment. As you hear a great many people and politicians that it is an unwise thing
talk, and by their questions you might to place in the hands of this Parliament
almost imagine that it was proposed that any surplus whatever—that you will give
we should hand over our affairs to a foreign them a means of extravagance which will
kingdom; whereas we are handing over land the provincial Treasurers in debt and
our affairs exactly to ourselves. Will any.
Will any difficulty. There, again, we have at once
body tell me that there will not be some the assumption that the federal parliament
kind of provincial check, because each of is not to be trusted. I want to point out
us will have to go back if we are in that this—that, even if you get a batch of debts,
parliament to our own provinces to be or a railway revenue, and put it up against
elected by them? There will be the same that surplus, you do not touch the diffi-
machinery, the same check, the same ex- culty at all. Even supposing you believe
ercise of public opinion upon that central that the railways should be given over,
government as there is upon the govern- under certain conditions, to the federal
ments represented here now.
It is an
government, it does not touch the difficulty
absolute negation of the whole principle in any way whatever. There is one schemie
of federation and trust in each other for which might meet it; but that is sur-
us to stop short of handing over that power rounded at the present time by enormous,
to the federal government.
and, to my mind, insuperable difficulties.
Mr. LYNE: How would you redistribute If the advocates of that:scheme will pardon
the surplus ?
me for saying so, these gentlemen are very
Mr. MCMILLAN: I do not think there anxious to give over our railways to fede-
would be any difficulty about redistributing ral control, not, perhaps, because it is the
the surplus. But the question of per capita right principle, but because it gets rid of
distribution, which we fix in this bill after the financial difficulty from their point of
a certain period, commits 'us to too much. view. But I want them to keep clearly
It is attempting to prophesy what will be before their minds that we have not merely
the condition of these colonies under the to pass a constitution which may be suit-
federation, and what will be the policy of able to our own views, but we have to
the Federal Parliament. I should be quite pass a constitution which will be accepted
willing to leave all that for the ultimate by the people of the different colonies. If
determination of the Federal Parliament, you intrude into that constitution any
because there may be great changes. We things which are not absolutely necessary,
do hope now, although we are meeting here which will weight it with responsibility,
in this Convention, each watching closely and give rise to differences of opinion
and jealously the interests of his own pro- in the different colonies, and give a handle
vince, that when this parliament does to anti-federationists, you may blow the
meet, and has been in operation for five whole scheme into atoms. - Let us inquire
years, a great many of the geographical for a moment, as a matter of enlighten-
lines which we now consider to be so neces- ment, what is the scheme of those gentle-
sary will, in their practical effect, be swept men wbo want to federate the railways.
out of existence, and that while we will be The scheme is that you should give over
still a federation, we shall have all the your railways-I am speaking at any rate
strength and concentration of union. Now of one scheme-to the federal parliament,
I come to another proposal which has been and give that parliament the exclusive
made for the covering up of this surplus. management. But they do not propose to
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
43
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
vest these railways absolutely, they do not The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Your method of
propose to say to the federal government, keeping accounts is different from ours.
• Take over all our liabilities and we will
Ours now pay 3 per cent. !
give you our assets." Nothing of the kind. Mr. McMILLAN: I would be justified
They propose to keep up a system of book- in going on to say." webope to do the same
keeping by which the interest will be thing under improved administration.'
charged to the different colonies on the Furthermore, the Premier of Victoria might
capital debt of the respective railways, by be justified-in saying, “While you get this
which all the losses will be charged to the railway system of ours into your hands,
different colonies. They thus give up the which we are already improving, and which,
management of the railways but keep the at the end of five years, will pay 33 per
responsibility. Who ever heard of such a cent. on the debt, are we going to write off
principle? If you give up the manage that sum of money while you will have an
ment you must give away the responsi- absolute monopoly and a magnificent asset
bility. What do we mean by vesting the which we could probably sell in Europe for
railways ? Simply this: That whatever the full amount of the debt." Is that a
the arrangement it must be a complete and question that could be dealt with in this
final transaction. These railways, the Convention? I hold that it is a question
moment they are given over to the central forthe future. I would not say for a moment
administration, must cease to have any- that it would not be a wise thing for a
thing to do with the different colonies. federal treasurer, when he got all the power
How could we do that? If the scheme is in his bands, when this question is looked
to capitalise the railways on the returns upon as a truly federal question, when all
now exhibited, which may be in abnormal these petty jealousies are destroyed—I do
times, Victoria, as compared with New not mean to say for a moment that it would
South Wales, would have to write off, pro- not be a great stroke of policy and of states-
bably, £8,000,000 of debt. Is Victoria manship to say, “It does not matter what
prepared to act in the like manner to do the capital account is, we will take over
that?
all the railways and take the liabilities
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I do not think with them." But we cannot do that here.
that would be the result !
Who is going to propose a scheme at the
Mr. McMILLAN: Iam simply arguing present time to take over these rail-
it in that way. I am not going to speak ways, and to take orer all the capital
of the normal results of years to come.
I debts exactly as they stand at the present
am simply stating what the problem would moment? Furthermore, while from nay
be for a convention like this if we tackle own, which I take to be a business point
it at all. If I were in the place of the of view, and from an administrative point
Right Hon. Sir George Turner-if he will of view, I should like to see all these dis-
pardon me for assuming that for a moment cordant elements under one strong band,
- I would say to New South Wales, "You still I doubt very much whether, at the
were down to 24 per cent on your capital present period of our history, we are ripe
some years ago. By wise administration for such a union. The only two colonies
you have raised it now, and practically nearly ripe for this operation are Victoria
the railways are paying interest on the and New South Wales. Queensland, with
debt.
the exception of her grand trunk line, has
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Last year absolutely an isolated system. Western
they more than paid interest !
Australia has an isolated system, and so
44
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6
56 SEPT., 1897. ]
has Tasmania ; and there is not a very it will be compulsory whether the states
great length of line even in South Aus- like it or not to give over the debts.
tralia. Therefore, I say, in the first place, The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Are you afraid of
that it is absolute folly, from my point of being robbed of your debts ?
view, to risk the acceptance of this con-
Mr. MCMILLAN : No; but there are
stitution by loading it with unnecessary
certain conditions, certain principles, on
things. I say, in the next place, to ask
which you should take them over. This
New South Wales, or any other colony,
bill provides simply that the Parliament
to give over practically the management
may take them over. It says nothing
and control of that great asset, and to
about the consent of the states.
take all the responsibility of the results,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
and keep all the liabilities, is an abso-
lutely unbusinesslike proceeding. With
Mr. MCMILLAN: That may be ; but
regard to the debts—and I am only you must recollect that this is, after all,
dealing with the salient facts—I hold in purely a matter of local concern. The debt
the same way that if they are to be dealt of any colony is not essentially a matter of
with at all they must be dealt with on
vital concern to the federal parliament.
broad federal lines, and it will only he
What I want to do is to prevent anything
when you have your federal parliament in
which is essentially local from being ab-
operation for a certain period, at any rate solutely mandatory in this constitution
when you have the central machinery, and
bill with regard to its being dealt with
when the federal treasurer in that Govern- by the federal parliament. It practically
ment is a great negotiator with all the
amounts to this: that you have to arrange
other governments for some equitable about your debts, if I take it rightly, if the
arrangement that we will be able to do scheme were proposed, although it seems to
what will be substantially equitable. I
me that there is some omission there, be-
feel that we may spend months and months
cause one colony may be able to bear a cer-
in this Convention over these intricate tain arrangement of a financial character
questions, and get no nearer to a solution which may press more heavily on another.
of them than in the beginning. There- These, I think, are the principal points that
fore, to sum up, I am of opinion that
we have to deal with in this financial mat-
we ought simply to propose some plan
ter. There is only one thing I would like to
for guaranteeing for the first five years
say a word or two about, and that is the
-it will not be a long period in the life
inter-state commission with regard to the
of this new nation a certain amount
railways. I want to point out to hon.
which will prevent the dislocation of the
members, especially to the representatives
provincial finances, and all this matter of of New South Wales, what great difficul-
debt, all this matter of railways we ought
ties and trouble may arise if, while we
to leave absolutely and entirely in the
do not vest the railways absolutely, we
hands of the federal parliament. I am
allow a certain power in the federal par-
not sure that it is a wise thing to make
liament to deal with our rates as they
think well.
this clause, with regard to the debts, so
sweeping as to give full power to the federal
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Can we not dis-
parliament to act without the consent of
cuss that question separately?
the states. I cannot at all make up my
Mr. MCMILLAN: I think the inter-
mind that it is a fair or righteous thing state commission is a very important point.
to put a drastic clause in the bill by which The inter-state commission comes under
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
45
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill:
the observations I have been making with merely diverted from our markets, but are
regard to, I will not say a foreign element, also handicapped in rates for the sake of
an outside element attempting to interfere this federal connection, then I say, if that
in the administration where the responsi- is to be the province of the inter-state
bility exists elsewhere.
commission, it opens out a very large and
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It can only affect very important question for the people of
state finances, not federal finance !
New South Wales. I would make one or
Mr. MCMILLAN: We have a system of two other observations in which I feel I
railway management in which there are shall not be at one with, at any rate, the
what are called differential rates, and, if this legal members of the convention. I know
bill remains as it is, I take it that in almost that, by the reading of a certain clause in
every matter coming under that general the Constitution of the United States, the
clause as to the equality of trade that the federal parliament has got this control
inter-state commission can practically dic- over private lines and has instituted an
tate the mode of regulating rates.
inter-state commission, because the prin-
Mr. HIGGINS :
ciple is that it absolutely interferes with
Mr. McMILLAN: Did the hon. mem- equality of trade. Whether I am right or
ber agree with Mr. Barton ? Because I whether I am wrong, I do not for one mo-
know there is a reserve power in my hon. ment consider that the question of warfare
friend which is edifying and which I would and competition in railway rates has any
like to get out of him. We all agree as to analogy whatever with customs duties on
what are called absolutely preferential the different borders.
rates. We all agree that two sets of rates SEVERAL Hon. MEMBERS : Oh!
are preferential. We all agree that the
Mr. MCMILLAN : They are analogous
rate now levied by Victoria on goods
up to a point. But the people whom I am
coming into that colony from New South
answering say if you leave your present
Wales, in which she gives a preference
system of railway rates you may as well
to outsiders over her own people, is a
not have intercolonial free-trade at all. I
preferential rate. We all agree that a
do not believe there is any such strict
rate which has been levied by our people, analogy, and although I am not a lawyer,
say, from Wagga Wagga to Albury, at a
and have not investigated the question, I
greater rate per mile than from Sydney
doubt very much whether it is not a great
to a similar distance up country, in order
straining of the American Constitution to
to prevent trade from going to the Vic-
bave the procedure which at present exists.
torian border, is a preferential rate. But
Mr. GLYNN:
when we open up the great class of differen-
The Hon. E. BARTON :
tial rates, which were originally and which
in certain localities now have never had
Mr. MCMILLAN : My hon. friend says
any regard to the other colonies, but are that a differential rate is no infraction of
simply based on the principle of giving a free-trade; but you come to a point when
helping hand to the people in the far in- the question is whether a rate is differ-
terior of a country which has no navigable ential or preferential, and that is exactly
rivers, and for whose benefit these rail- the point where we have got from our pro-
ways were constructed; if, because trade vincial standpoint at present, where we
happens to trend towards another border, have to safeguard the people of New South
the whole of these differential rates are to Wales, who have spent such enormous sums
be dislocated, and our people are not
in the construction of railways.
46
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
16 SEPT., 1897.1
An Hox. MEMBER: The inter-state com- position with regard to this federal com-
mission will represent the states !
pact as our land or court-houses, and thou-
Another Hon. MEMBER :
sands of other things that we retain to
ourselves; and it is no derogation of the
Mr. MCMILLAN: That is not an analo-
principle of federation-it is not in any
gous position to that which we are deal-
ing with now. We take up this position
way distrusting the federal parliament-if
on this question we retain the control of our
as a matter of business : that if we give
railways. There is no improper conflicting
up our railways at all we want to get rid
interest affected between the provinces and
of the whole responsibility ; but if these
the central government that may lead to
railways, at any rate from my point of
trouble in the future.
view, are not absolutely vested so that
Mr. HIGGINS: Are you willing to stop
we get rid of responsibility, and put them
differential rates where they become pre-
on a par with everything else that we give
ferential ?
over absolutely-my hon. friend will see
the difference between dealing with a thing asking me a question upon which, if I
Mr. MCMILLAN: The hon. member is
that you retain in its connection with the
wanted to decide, I would retain his special
provincial government and dealing with a
counsel to answer it. That is just the
thing that you give over for ever to the
thing which it is impossible to decide. I
central government, because you must re-
collect that everything that you leave as a
have with some temerity opened this de-
bate. I have tried to go straight to my
matter of friction between the border line
views, whatever they may be worth, in
of duties, between the line where the state
order to make the discussion as practical
government comes in and the central
as possible. I think that upon those mat-
government comes in-you leave as the
ters on which I have dwelt we have the
seeds of trouble in the future. Therefore,
kernel of the whole difficulty, and as far
it is to my mind inequitable and unbusi-
nesslike to attempt to work this great
as I am concerned, I see the only simple
solution of it, and if that solution is now
asset, and at the same time to give over
to the federal government the power of
arrived at I am willing to trust the future
federation of Australia to do justice to all
intermeddling and dealing with the rail-
the provinces.
ways in such a way as if they practically
The Hon. A.DEAKIN(Victoria)[11:45]:
belonged to the commonwealth.
If the hon. member who has just resumed
Mr. GLYNN : According to the latest
his seat spoke with diffidence on this ques-
reports, the very power that we are giving tion, practised a financier as he is in his
they are asking for in America !
own calling, and an ex-Treasurer for
many
Mr. McMILLAN : Who are asking for
years of this great colony, with how much
it ?
more diffidence must I address myself to
An Hon. MEMBER : Writers in the
it, claiming no such experience either in-
American states !
side or outside of Parliament! It is only
Mr. McMILLAN: There is no analogy because I feel that when this discussion,
between the two positions. In America as it possibly may, passes into the hands of
the railways are privately owned. There the financial experts present, it may become
are a great many people who would destroy too intricate that I am impelled to offer a few
everything that belongs to private indivi- simple observations thus early. The hon.
duals. We are dealing now with our state member, Mr. McMillan, has dealt with ques-
assets, which stand practically in the same tions which though they affect the financial
[Mr. McMillan,
Commonwealth of
47
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
issue—and, indeed, what proposals in the there are clauses in the bill under which,
bill do not affect the financial issue Pap- irrespective of an inter-state commission,
pear to me to unnecessarily enlarge the preferential rates will disappear. There
scope of the financial problem now sub- will no longer. be power for either Vic-
mitted to us.
toria or New South Wales to offer any
The Hon. E. BARTON :
advantage to goods coming over their rail-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If the hon. ways because they are brought from other
member could have subdivided his remarks, colonies and from long distances. If the
we should have been more readily able to hon, member looks at it a moment he will
follow one question at a time through a see that there need be no difference be-
prolonged discussion to its conclusion than tween differential rates and preferential
when we have the three or four great sub- rates, except that state boundaries inter-
jects which he has broached, and which if vene in the one case and not in the other.
dealt with by each speaker cannot lead us The hon, member says it means giving
to the same clear results. For instance, outsiders an advantage over the people in
an inter-state commission may have un- your own colony.
But that argument
doubtedly an influence on federal finance, might apply to cases in which an advan-
and it must have an influence upon provin- tage is given to people in your own colony
cial finances; but the question of its utility who send goods long distances over those
has no relation to our present problem. who send them short distances. A pre-
I should hope that the difficulty relating ferential rate might be deemed a federal
to the establishment of such a body, or the rate, because it is giving people outside the
neglect to establish it might be postponed. colony advantages that you give to people
At all events, I will pass on with a single going long distances in your own colony.
sentence or two of reference. The hon. I do not put that forward as a full state-
member draws a distinction, or desires to ment of the case. To me it is distinctly a
draw a distinction, between differential and better statement of the case, and a fuller
preferential rates, but I hold that such a statement than that urged by those who
distinction is one which depends wholly draw such a broad distinction between
upon anti-federal conditions. It is a dis- preferential and differential rates on pro-
tinction which has no meaning apart from fessedly federal lines. We charge one rate
state boundaries. If the railways are dealt for the first 100 miles, a lower for the
with on federal principles, why slıould not second 100 miles, and a lower still for the
the rates for the same distance from any third 100 miles, and so on. It is just as
one point to another be in a general way true to say that we give to a person living
the same over all Australia ?
300 miles off advantages over a person
Mr. MCMILLAN: Will the hon, member living 100 miles away as to say we give
allow me to explain ? My argument in a person living 500 or 600 miles away in
that direction was based on the proposal another colonystill greater advantages than
to take over the control of the railways, but those who live at a lesser distance. The
not to take them over absolutely. Once the principle is exactly the same. The longer
railways are vested the differential rates the distance the lower the charge. What
would disappear.
I wish to point out is that, providing
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I quite under- the same rate of reduction in charges is
stand that. The point is that the hon. observed, there is nothing necessarily anti-
member discusses the inter-state commis- federal in the existence of preferential
sion from a state standpoint. He says rates. Therefore, I pass this part of the
48 Commonwealth of [6 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
own.
question by with the simple statement that weight on one side or the other. If it be
when we come to consider the establish- proposed that the railways should be feder-
ment of an inter-state commission I, for alised, it must be a proposal on its own
one, will not fall in with the contention merits, and because it would be in the com-
that necessarily preferential rates are anti- mon interests of the whole of the people
federal. They may be or they may not be. of Australia, and not simply to help
It all depends upon whether they are ad- us out of the financial difficulty. For that
justed in accordance with the scale of dif- reason I propose to put such a sugges-
ferential rates that you adopt in your own
tion aside. The one matter to which I
colony. If they are, they appear absolutely desire to direct attention is the principal
unobjectionable ; but if they go beyond financial problem by which we are faced.
that they may be objectionable. Neither I am perfectly aware that on this sub-
do I propose to detain the Committee by a ject destructive criticism is easy, and the
discussion as to the taking over of the rail- fact that it is easy is evidenced by the
ways as a whole. I have already made a number of legislative bodies throughout
confession of faith on that subject, which Australia who have contented themselves
is, that it appears to me essential to the by striking out the financial provisions,
full and perfect federal government of these without substituting any clauses of their
colonies, that such important agencies as This problem appears to me to
the railways should be taken over by the resolve itself into the discussion of two
federal authorities. We are in this coun- principal points. The first, alluded to by
try, unfortunately, not possessed of the ad- Mr. McMillan, was how to provide for
vantages of the United States of America, the transfer to the federal government of
traversed as that country is by magnificent the customs revenues of all the colonies
streams which afford natural highways for within the federation without utterly dis-
its people. Our railways in the future will locating their systems of financial adminis-
have to serve, in a sense, for streams as tration and taxation. That is the first
well as for railways. They will be prac problem. The second problem, and one
tically our only great means of intercom- which seems to me to occupy quite a dif-
munication, and it appears to me, for rea- ferent ground, and to be, to a certain ex-
sons which I urged at the prior meeting of tent, a problem of our own creation, is
the Convention, that under these circum- on what plan or principle should any sur-
stances federation will not be complete, plus retained by the federal government
will not be able to conserve those common after discharging its own expenditure, pay-
interests of the whole of the people of ing the cost of the departments it has
Australasia—for which purpose I under- taken over, and the cost of any other
stand a federal government is to be created undertakings which it might see fit to
--it will not be able to conserve them or carry out-on what principle should it
develop them, as it must and should do, distribute the surplus supposed to neces-
without the control of the railways. That, sarily result to it from the imposition of
however, I also regard as not necessarily the federal tariff ? Now I say, in the
bound up with the financial question. I am first instance, that there is no necessity
quite with the hon. member in declining for a surplus ever existing-or a surplus
to indorse the contention that, because we of any magnitude-by the action of the
find ourselves under certain embarrass- federal parliament; and certainly it can-
ments as regards a financial settlement, not exist unless the federal parliament so
we should throw in the railways as a make- desires. Whether the federal government
!
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
49
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
of the future adopts a protectionist or a of standpoints. I would concede with Mr.
free-trade policy, it is perfectly within its McMillan, that the very first condition in
competence to so adjust its tariff as merely considering the financial proposals is that
to provide sufficient revenue for its own the state treasuries should not be subject
current expenses, or the federal parliament to a revolution that there should be
may if it pleases spend all that it receives. an undertaking and a guarantee upon
It is not essential, therefore, that under which state treasurers should be able to
any tariff which the federal government proceed. I would go further than the hon.
may adopt there should be a surplus of member did, and probably further than the
overwhelming magnitude.
hon, member would be prepared to go. In
Mr. GLYNN : What about the current my opinion, that guarantee on behalf of
purposes of the states?
the states ought to cover the whole of the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: revenue of which they would be deprived
Mr. GLYNN: We shall be taking away by the introduction of the federal system
revenue from the states at the same time! of government. Federal government might
The Hon A. DEAKIN : I pointed out be, and in my opinion ought to be, intro-
that there were only two aspects of the duced with a guarantee to each colony of
financial problem which we are immediately the return to it of the sums it at present
and at this stage obliged to face. The first receives from the sources which the federal
of these I said related to its effect
upon
the government takes over, of course deduc-
states, and the second was as to the dis- ting the cost of the departments which the
tribution of the surplus. I am now speak- provincial governments at present pay in
ing of the distribution of the surplus, and order to obtain the revenue ; and I would
I say that, so far as the federal govern- make that guarantee obtain, not for five
ment is concerned, looking at the question or twenty years, but for all time.
wholly from a federal aspect, there is no The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Suppose
certainty of any notable surplus.
some of the services taken over show a loss?
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: That would The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
be inconceivable in our present conditions. customs revenues will increase !
It would be absurd !
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will reply
Mr. LYNE: Absolutely!
first to the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Not in- and say that in assessing this fixed pay-
conceivable, because the hon. member is ment I would not limit the data to any
putting such a case !
particular year. It would, probably, be
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Itis neither in- best to take the net result of the last five
conceivable, nor, with all deference, is it or ten years. If there had been a loss over
absurd, as I will presently endeavour to the whole of the five years, or on the aver-
show. But perhaps it would clear the way age, then the colony would not be entitled
if I dealt first with the immediate problem to receive anything, because of parting with
of the effect of the transfer of the several that service. Allowance, of course, could
provincial customs revenues to the federal be made for exceptional circumstances in
government, and asked hon. members to any colony, so long as the sum is fixed. I
consider what evidently their minds, judg- make this suggestion in view of a further
ing. from their interjections, are much ex- proposal hereafter ; but at this stage hon.
ercised about to consider how that is to members will see that, if it be competent
be done without undue dislocation of the and possible, as surely it is—we are compe-
local revenues. This question, of course, tent to do it, and it is possible—this would
has been approached from a great variety at once relieve the state treasurers of all
D
50
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
anxiety for the next few years, because has yet been proposed for returning sur-
they might safely reckon that, having an pluses to the different states is of itself an
ascertained and certain sum placed to their argument that all the best financial intelli-
credit by the federal government, there gence does not find the problem soluble.
would be no dislocation of the local finances. Indeed, almost the whole of the proposals
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : They of the financial experts—right down to
would make a profit out of federation ! that admirable paper from the Assistant
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: They could Government Statistician of New South
scarcely make a profit, because the states Wales which has been placed in our hands
would only receive their average profit the whole of them, from Sir Samuel
during the last five or ten years; as they Griffith’s first criticism of the proposals of
have received that profit in the past, in 1891 down to the proposal which was
my opinion, they are entitled to receive placed by the Convention in the Ade-
it in the future.
laide draft bill, and even Mr. Nash's very
Mr. GLYNN : Western Australia might effective articles are vitiated by a funda-
object to that arrangement !
mental and transparent fallacy. That
The Hon A. DEAKIN: So far as West- fundamental and transparent fallacy has
ern Australia is concerned, I believe some been the acceptance of a forecast as to
special arrangement will in the end have to the earnings of a uniform tariff, based
be made in regard to that particular colony upon the imports of goods into different
to do justice to its great growth, and, at
colonies under different tariffs, and upon
the same time, to avoid doing injustice to the wild, utterly indefensible assumption
the other colonies. But, putting aside that, no matter what tariff may be imposed
Western Australia, I see no difficulty in
in the future as the uniform tariff of fed-
giving effect to the plan. Then, in answer
erated Australia, exactly the same quanti-
to the Premier of Victoria, who says that
ties of goods would continue to be brought
the customs revenue in the future will yield
into those colonies. I need not develop this
increase, I say, undoubtedly it will. The
argument--it was indicated at Adelaide ;
natural growth of population, the increased
I called attention to it at the time, and it
has been very elaborately discussed here by
prosperity which we all anticipate in the
Mr. Pulsford in the Upper House, by Mr.
different colonies after their union, the
Ashton in the Lower House, and by several
more rapid development of their natural
other members whose speeches I have had
resources, the greater expansion of inter-
the privilege of reading in the New South
colonial trade all these will in the end
Wales Debates, and in those of other colonies.
react upon the external customs and in-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Does the
ternal excise so as to produce a greater and
hon. member say that under a uniform
greater revenue. Then, I come to the next
tariff the contributions per head would be
point which I wish to submit to the Con-
pretty nearly the same in all the colonies ?
vention, and it is, that, in regard to that The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will come
growth, we should follow the suggestion
to that in a moment. I say so, with one
of Mr. McMillan, and trust absolutely to
or two reservations, which I think will be
the federal parliament to distribute or ex- admitted by all persons.
pend it. It appears to me that this is not
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Add ad
an evasion of any duty we are called upon valorem duties to our tariff, would Victoria
to fulfil, because, in the first instance, the get quite as much per head ?
admitted failure, or, if not failure, the ad- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will not con
mitted fallibility of every scheme which tradict the right hon, gentleman on that
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
51
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
subject, if he is granting that by our tariff unknown tariff will produce. We can only
we have raised up local industries of such as the Premier of New South Wales, with
magnitude that their production would his customary quickness, at once saw
necessarily decrease our customs returns approach the problem from another side,
from import duties on those articles. If he and that is in regard to the question of
admits that, I am with him. To that extent, consumption. Then again, in that respect,
I admit that New South Wales, not pos-
consumption does not mean all consump-
sessing the industries which we possess,
tion. It means the consumption of goods
would import more goods.
which either pay excise or customs. The
Mr. MCMILLAN: Most of us took these paper of the Assistant Statistician of New
figures as approximate!
South Wales, admirable as it is, fails to
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: But I think
draw that distinction, since it speaks of the
they are not even approximate. We, in Vic- consumption and the spending power of
toria, have, perhaps, had more experience the different colonies, ignoring the fact that
of tariff changes than most of the colonies,
some of the colonies, having deliberately
and nothing can be more absurd than to and expressly adopted a protective tariff
endeavour to convince us that they have
in order to develop their industries, and
not been followed in each instance-where
therefore to produce and consume their
the change really was a change-by a great
own goods, do not necessarily consume less
difference in the importation of goods. As
because they import less, or pay less excise.
we have lowered certain duties, goods from
The question of consumption, so far as we
abroad have flowed in. As we have raised
can test it by customs and excise, only
them, they have ceased to come in. We
relates to goods that pay excise within the
have seen every alteration of the tariff colony, and goods imported from abroad.
followed by an alteration in regard to the
Limiting it to that, and again taking
Western Australia as, not a shocking, but
import of the goods affected by it, and I
an admirable, example, we find in that
assume the experience of the other colonies
colony a population of 70 per cent. of
males. It is the habit of the male species
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is
to consume more narcotics and stimulants
so, only your cripples would get stronger
than the female. I am informed that be-
if they lived on us a bit !
tween one-third and one-half of the cus-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Certainly, if
toms revenue of these colonies is raised
we have any cripples we shall only be too
from narcotics and stimulants. We can
glad that they should get stronger; but it understand, therefore, that the overflowing
is not of cripples that the right hon. gentle- treasury of Western Australia is very
man is afraid ; it is the strong whose com- largely due to the simple fact of the abnor-
petition he fears.
mal number of males in that colony, not to
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: And yet we speak of the abnormal quantity of stimu-
have had all our borders free for two years! lants and narcotics consumed by them.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: New South Mr. McMILLAN : Federation will cure
Wales has been most generous, and I trust that!
will always remain so.
On that score The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Time will cure
the right hon. gentleman and myself will it. The new woman is not to be excluded
not dispute. I have been led away from from Western Australia any more than from
the statement that this was a transparent any other colony. There is no doubt that
fallacy, and that so far we have no ground the sex inequality which at present exists
which would enable us to predict what an will, in course of time, be removed by purely
is the sanie.
52
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.
per head.
natural causes. I understand that the The Hon. E. BARTON : Will it take
Premier of Western Australia signalised, longer than five years?
amongst many other achievements, his The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It may; but I
visit to the mother country by importing should doubt whether it would take a decade.
a certain number of females in order to Mr. GLYNN : There is a great deal of
make up for the deficiency which at pre- difference between the proceeds from the
sent exists. Putting aside Western Aus- liquor traffic in the different colonies !
tralia, as separated by its present circum- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: There is, be-
stances, and having some familiarity as a cause in one colony people may largely
visitor with the rest of the colonies, it drink whiskey and in another locally grown
appears to me to be hard to lay the finger wine.
upon any particular cause in any particular Mr. SOLOMON, : It may be a question of
colony which would make any great differ-
climate. The hon, member wants a little
ence in the consumption of dutiable goods experience of Western Australian weather
in that colony. I assume that the propor-
to know what thirst means !
tion of total abstainers and non-smokers is
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If hon. mem-
about the same in one colony as in another. bers have followed me thus far, I will now
Putting that aside, regarding the circum- revert to the position to which that brings
stances of the life of the people, the manner me. Why should we be so afflicted by the
in which they live, and the appearance of fear of trusting the federal parliament with
their cities and country districts, I for one any possible surplus we may gain—why
can discover nothing which should make should we be so afflicted when we consider
any marked difference in the consumption the possible disposal of the surplus by
head. It seems to me that the only the federal parliament any more than we,
variations which really exist in the con- should be afflicted by the possible disposal
sumption per head throughout Australia of that surplus when paid over to the
arise from the fact that these are rapidly several provincial parliaments? What
growing and expanding colonies, that all reason have we to fear any greater extra-
their conditions are changing, and as all vagance on the part of the federal parlia-
their conditions are changing with great nient than on the part of the provincial
rapidity from year to year, necessarily parliaments if the surplus were paid to
there are some variations in consumption. them? It would come to them in the sanie
But all these differences are temporary ;
fashion as it would come to the federal
they are all local; they all tend to disap- parliament, and save and except that it
pear; and the probability is that at no might be supposed that the federal parlia-
distant date they will disappear altogether.
ment would be encouraged to extravagance,
Putting aside Western Australia, it ap-
because it could abnormally increase the de-
pears to me that the consumption of partments that had been handed over to it,
dutiable goods would be about the same and study their interests regardless of ex-
all over Australia.
pense, so as to hand back as little as possible
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: From the to the provincial parliaments—if that be
first?
put aside, we have no more need to fear the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not quite from disposal of the surplus by the federal par-
the first; it takes time. The settlement and liament than by the provincial parliaments.
the development of great territories takes The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : In the
time, and during that time there will be, federal parliament there would be a sur-
as I say, variations.
plus : not in the provincial parliaments !
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
53
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: With all defer- South Wales tariff are, I understand, ad-
ence to the right hon. gentleman, I say that justed to bring in the largest possible
would be a surplus in both. The treasurer of amount of revenue from those sources.
a state would not be justified in previously Mr. LYNE : They have fallen from
disposing of the share of the surplus that £2,000,000 to £1,000,000 !
was to come to him from the federal par- The Right Hon. G. H. REID : We get
liament. He would not know exactly- £1,500,000 from seven or eight articles,
perhaps not within a considerable margin instead of £2,000,000 from a large num-
—what it was going to be. It would ber of articles !
therefore come to him as a surplus, and he The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I shall leave
would have the same opportunities for the Premier of New South Wales to reply
spending it extravagantly as the federal to that.
treasurer would.
Mr. LYNE: He cannot reply to it!
Mr. LYNE: How would the hon. mem- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If, as I under-
ber arrive at the fixed sum to be returned stand would be the case, a period of ten years
to each colony?
were taken, that would include the cus-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Broadly by toms returns of New South Wales during
taking the last five or ten years' net profits a period when some degree of protection,
which that particular colony has gained at all events, was in operation; so that
by the services in question.
would be provided for.
Mr. LYNE: Out of the customs and
Mr. LYNE : Take it for the years 1893,
excise ?
1894, and 1895; that would be quite dif-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Customs, post-
ferent!
offices, excisc, and so on; the whole net sum
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Those are the
it has been receiving from those depart- worst years for Victoria, but they would
ments after meeting the cost of those de- necessarily be included in a quinquennial
partments and defence; the money which period, and still more in a decennial period.
each colony has been receiving from those My ideas are probably crude; but I have
services which it now proposes to transfer tried in a simple way to go to the root
to the commonwealth ; and that sum would of the matter as it presents itself to me.
be given for all time.
The difficulties with which we are sur-
Mr. LYNE: And would you take into
rounded in regard to the surplus can be
account the direct taxes, too? For if you best settled by trusting the federal parlia-
do not take into account direct taxation, ment to dispose of the surplus. It may
New South Wales will be placed in an un- be a great deal longer than hon. mem-
fair position, if you take into account the bers anticipate before the federal parlia-
customs duties in New South Wales the ment will have a surplus. The federal par-
liament, for instance, may take over the cus-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not so unfair as toms and excise department, and by the
the hon. member seems to suppose, because
necessities of the case may require to raise
the present tariff in New South Wales is a certain amount of revenue; but it may
not imposed as a tariff to lose revenue, but not necessarily require to raise more than
to gain revenue. You do not measure that amount, and if it discovered that the
the gain from your customs duties by tariff which it had adopted was bringing
their height. Raise them above a certain in more revenue than was absolutely neces-
height, and the returns will begin to di- sary, it would always be possible to adjust
minish. The duties of the present New it, just as it would if it found that particular
last two years.
54
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
items were bringing in less revenue than the constituents of t!e federal parliament,
was needed. It is not to be supposed that and if the federal parliament can see its
the federal parliament would be capable way to benefit the people of Australia in
of passing a tariff as it were in the dark, the expenditure of that money, no matter
and on mere anticipation, and that, on in what direction, the federal parliament
finding that it was pouring into its trea- will be competent to undertake that ex-
sury much more than it needed, and was penditure. It can spend that money di-
imposing greater burdens on the people rectly, instead of voting it to the states
than were necessary, it would continue it for them to spend it as states. The future
simply because it had been passed. The members of the federal parliament will be
federal parliament would be capable of perfectly free, either to spend any surplus
adjusting the tariff as required, and of for the benefit of the people of Australia,
determining how much revenue it should or to hand it over to the states, and say to
receive every year, and how it should be them, “Spend it in this proportion as
disposed of.
you may think best for your people.”
Mr. HIGGINS: How long is the guarantee
The Hon. E. BARTON : If they may
to last?
spend it for the benefit of the people, you
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The fixed must give them objects on which they may
amount is to be paid to the states for all spend it!
time, and no other amount is to be paid to The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That willfollow,
them except the federal parliament direct; but I will not discuss it now.. I believe
but it may so direct. If in the future the that the federal parliament will take over
members of the federal parliament are of the whole of the railways with the respon-
the same opinion as many hon. members sibility of opening up new territory by
here appear to be, or have been--that, if means of railway communication, and if
there were a surplus, it should be returned so the federal parliament is not likely to
to the states-there will be nothing to pre- have an enormous surplus to trouble them.
vent its carrying out the design to arrange If I have made hon. members understand
for further annual payments to the states the one or two points that I have tried to
as states.
put simply before them, I have succeeded
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Is not that in my endeavour. I would only remind
absolutely necessary in the present con- hon. members that at the formation of the
dition of things ?
United States of America exactly what I
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We might ar- am now suggesting was done. The United
range for the payment of a fixed amount States took over the debts of the old
to the states for the first five or ten years. confederation.
After that, the federal parliament would The Hon. J. H. GONDON : The figures
consider the situation each year, and would were nothing like ours !
look at the circumstances of the time, and The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Nothing what-
if it thought that it was desirable to make ever like ours. But the United States took
a return to the states as states, it could do over the debts, such as they were, of the old
But the people of Australia will be confederation—they took over the war
the constituents of the federal parliament debt—and in return the federal govern-
the states as states will not be the con- ment took absolutely the whole of the
stituents of the federal parliament, except customs and excise. Of course it may be
in so far as they are defined in the second urged, and it is true that in later years
chamber; the people of Australia will be great extravagance has been shown in the
SO.
[The Hon. 4. Deakin.
Commonwealth of 6 SEPT., 1897.]
55
Australia Bill.
expenditure of the surplus derived from this form in Canada, because there is ap-
customs and excise in the United States; parently no other means—or if there be
but I do not think that
you
defend
your- another means it has not been adopted-
self from extravagance by simply giving by which the federal government could
money to the state parliaments to be ex- meet the needs of the people of the states
travagant with, instead of leaving it with without dealing with them through the
the federal parliament. I think that one states--could meet them directly as I am
is as likely to be extravagant as the other. now suggesting. It appears to me that if
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: State control is the United States plan is adopted the
more direct and effective than federal con- federal government of the future is more
trol!
likely to act for and deal with the people
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I do not think of the states as people of the common-
that it would be in this instance. Because, wealth than with the states as states. Any.
in this matter of expenditure, in so far as it thing which tends to reduce the friction
is federal expenditure, there will be no between the states and their governments,
states as states. There will be no state and the federal government and its ex-
feeling in connection with it. If there is
If there is ecutive, appears to me to make for pro-
an expenditure at Dubbo, Dubbo will re- gress and peace. Any system that tends to
joice, and the rest of New South Wales leave the federal expenditure just as it now
will care little about the matter. If there is in all our colonies a question between the
is an expenditure at Goulburn, Goulburn constituents and their representatives is
will be satisfied, and the rest of New South to be preferred. The majority of the
Wales will have nothing to say. It will representatives have not in any colony,
be a question, not of state interest against taking administration over term of
state interest, but of conflicting local in years, been known to do injustice to any
terests. Each locality will look after its part of their domain. Why then should
own interests, and the states as states will we suppose that a federal assembly will
neither be injured nor benefited. The be found any more blind to the wants
electors of Australia will decide. Certain of its constituents, in whatever part of
localities, which it will appear to the fede- the continent they may reside ? What
ral parliament desirable to make the sub- reason have we to suppose that the least
jects of expenditure, will be benefited. In populated parts of the continent will not
niy opinion, one great advantage of this receive the same amount of consideration
proposal is that it would tend to lessen the as the most populated parts? In Victoria
bargaining, the dealing, the chaffering on more money has been expended upon the
federal matters, between the states. least populous parts of the colony, where
The Right Hon. Sir GEORGE TURNER : the representatives are fewest, than in the
Would that be so? What about Canada ? most populous and influential districts;
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Canada has and I believe that that is probably true of
adopted the very plan Iam objecting to mak- the other colonies, and would be true of the
ing payments from the federal government federal parliament. That parliament would
per capita to the states as states. That cir- be composed of members as patriotic as
cumstance has caused continual dissension those of any of the provincial assemblies.
in Canada, and at the presenttime is causing It would represent the taxpayers of all Aus-
demands for a revision of the terms, and for tralia, and its members would not look at
more liberal payments from the federal gov- the artificial dividing lines which it is the
ernment to the states. The payments take purpose of this Convention to abolish,
3
a
56
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. LYNE": If the hon. and learned of customs and excise. They get as much
member's argument means anything, it more too as the people may choose to give
means the destruction of the states and the themselves through their channel instead of
establishment of unification !
through the federal channel. I do not pro-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not in the least pose to deal with the question of taking over
degree. You will have the states as states, the debts of the colonies, because, although
with all the powers secured to them in this that is a financial question, it is a different
measure, and with every other power which financial question from that which I am
is not expressly given to the central go- now considering. But in my opinion the
vernment. What I am proposing does not fixed sum to be given to the states year
in the slightest degree affect the clauses of by year could take no more acceptable, or
the measure defining the federal powers definite, or desirable shape than by the
to which the hon member has already assumption of such a part of each of the
agreed; but it would allow the federal state debts as the interest upon which would
parliament to say whether it would deal be equivalent to the payment to be made to
with its surplus revenue directly, or hand the states. I add that to the proposal I
it over to the states.
have just been urging. We should make
Mr. Lyne: That would destroy thestates! the spheres of state and federal finance as
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not at all. It distinct as they can be made. That has
would allow the federal parliament to decide been done in America, and Mr. Bryce has
whether it would spend its surplus through called especial notice to the fact that in
the states or give it directly to the people those spheres most separated in America,
instead of confining its expenditure to the where there has been no overlapping
states. The people themselves would de-
of state functions and federal functions,
cide.
there has been the least friction and the
Mr. LYNE : That would mean the de- least disadvantage. By the means I sug-
struction of the states !
gest you cut the connection between state
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If the hon. and federal finance, subject always to the
member thinks that the states in the future
power of the federal parliament at any
are to be dependent upon the proportion of time, on being moved by its constituents,
the surplus they will receive from the cen- to make any grants to the state parlia-
tral government, all I can say is that his ments, and, if they are of the opinion
proposal would place the several states in a of the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, to follow
position of dependance upon the central the course which he desires. But it is of
government, which would make them so advantage to separate as far as possible
much more subordinate and less powerful. the spheres of state and federal finance,
Mr. LYNE: Not if you fixed the sum to to make a fixed arrangement for the taking
be returned. Will the hon. inember tell over of the customs and excise duties by
me how the states are to get revenue at all the federal parliament, and then to trust
if we take away the power of levying cus- the federal parliament. As the hon. mem-
toms duties, and do not return to them a ber, Mr. McMillan, has said, you trust
certain sum of money each month ? the federal parliament in a hundred and
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Butwe do. We one cases. They are to be trusted in
return the fixed sum of which I have spoken. the future to decide upon what measures
I say that they should get that fixed amount they think best for the commonwealth
for all time. They are to get that sum, and and the people; and why should this mat-
they know that they are to get it. They ter be taken from their control, instead of
get it, as the hon. member might say, out its being left to be dealt with after fuller
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of [6 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
57
research and wider knowledge than can be posed in the first session of the Convention
obtained in this Convention but which is that the aggregate amount to be returned
sure to be enjoyed in the federal parlia- tothestates should be equal to theaggregate
ment?
amount from customs for the year prior to
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales) the uniformity of tariff. I dissent from that
[12:29]: I am one of those who consider idea. Intercolonial duties giveus something
that the accomplishment of federation is like £1,000,000 a year, and it seems to me
much more important than rigid adherence
that if the consumers have not to pay those
to a fiscal policy, and that it is much duties they will have the equivalent in their
more easy to draft a theoretical consti- pockets, and it is therefore not unreasonable
tution upon paper than to manufacture one to suppose that each colony should make up
which will be equitable and acceptable to
in the best way it can its loss upon the
the whole of the colonies. In my opinion
duties. We, in New South Wales, do not
the main principlein a satisfactory financial
want anything beyond the federal tariff,
scheme would be that each state should get
because that will give us more income than
we receive from the old tariff.
back directly or indirectly what it con-
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : How are we
tributes, less a per capita proportion of the
federal expenses. I am glad to see that our
going to get it?
Western Australian friends, judging by
Mr. WALKER: If you receive less
what I have read in the newspapers, take
your per capita proportion will be less.
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : If the amount
up a somewhat similar stand. I am aware
that, amongst others, the hon. member,
is not obtained from customs, how would
the hon, member raise it?
Mr. McMillan, objects to what he calls the
Mr. WALKER: I think we shall have
book-keeping system. I do not object to
it if it means doing that which is equitable
to raise it by direct taxation. But upon
and right. I admit, however, that it is
this point I will quote the words of a
desirable that it should only last for a cer-
member of the Victorian House of Assem-
tain time-probably for only five years,
bly. I have not the pleasure of knowing
after the uniform tariff comes into vogue.
the hon. member ; but I have been struck
At the end of that period we should have,
with his common-sense views upon some
I trust, sufficient information as to the
subjects. The hon. member to whom I
refer is. Mr. Fink.
average annual contribution from each
colony to enable us to what I call capital-
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : He supports
ise the discrepancies; but if preferred it
the Government. He's all right!
Mr. WALKER: He says:
might be arranged that the respective
colonies should get so much less or so
The task of readjusting tariff rates on fair
lines would not be difficult. It must not be for-
much more per annum than their share
gotten that the £1,000,000 of intercolonial duties
of the revenue upon a mere per capita would not really be lost. They would remain
basis. In fact, our so-called prudent feder-
with the people, and would practically operate
as an industrial and commercial incentive to the
ationists are not far wrong in saying that
continent. Now, before I sit down I want to
the principle upon which federation should
make one or two observations on the industrial
be accomplished is that each colony should effects of intercolonial free-trade, because after
pay only a per capita proportion of the ex- all, what we bave heard upon it lately has been
pense. I do not however expect to get much
mere abstract or general statement. But I really
think that if the matter is studied we shall see
assistance from them, as they look upon
that intercolonial free-trade, judging the future
me as a federationist at any price. As to by the past, and judging this country by others
the difficulties to be overcome, it was pro-
similarly situated, will not be the realisation of
..
58
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
a mere sentimental idea, but the greatest boon in, through free-trade New South Wales,
that any legislature could confer upon a com- all the goods they can in order to escape
munity.
the higher duties of the ensuing year,
Mr. Styles, who is also a man of generous
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : New
federal instincts
South Wales can prevent that easily !
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : Another Go-
Mr. WALKER: I say that we ought
vernment supporter!
to take the second, not the first year as the
Mr. WALKER: He
says:
basis of calculation in making our average.
If weare to have a commonwealth parliament we
must trustit. The man who has not full confidence
I dissent absolutely from the idea of a
in the commonwealth parliament should vote sliding scale. It is inequitable, and it is
against this bill, and againstevery other stepinthe generally acknowledged that it is so, so that
direction of federation. But the commonwealth
I need not enlarge upon that branch of
parliament, I apprehend, will be composed pro-
bably of a good many members of this Chamber
the question. I have already said that I
and of other well-known public men throughout
look to the accomplishment of federation
Australia. We are not aware that they do any. as being of more importance than adhesion
thing wrong now; and I do not see why, because
to fiscal policy. We, free-traders, how-
they become members of the commonwealth par-
liament, they should be expected to do anything
ever, are willing to recognise that certain
wrong then. Instead of saying to that parlia- concessions must be made, that certain
ment, “You shall do this, and you shall do give-and-take principles must actuate us in
that,” I would lay down general lines with re-
this matter. Although I am a free-trader,
ference to these and other matters. How do we
know what will happen in the course of three
I am not so ardent a free-trader as those
or four years after the uniform duties come in ? who advocate no customs duties at all. My
With regard to the book-keeping principle, impression is that we must recognise that
we provide for book-keeping during the
our policy formany years to come will be one
first two years; and I think a similar sys-
of revenue tariff, including, possibly, duties
tem might be carried on for the five years.
with a slight tendency to protection. I
I do not know how we can prophesy what
should like, however, to see that question
the incidence of the tariff will be when we met by a system of bounties which would
do not know what the tariff is to be. We come to an end within a certain time.
can only judge from the present tariffs what
The Hon. E. BARTON : The hon. member
the incidence possibly may be. The hon. likes spending money instead of getting it!
and learned member, Mr. Deakin, said the
Mr. WALKER: Mr. Nash has sug-
experience of Victoria was that the higher gested that each state should retain the
the customs duties the smaller the consump-
duties upon stimulants and narcotics, and
tion of goods.
that the other duties could be divided upon
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Not a per capita basis. I do not think we have
the smaller the consumption of goods, but
sufficient statistics to enable us to say
the smaller the imports !
whether that would or would not be a good
Mr. WALKER: As regards the draft arrangement. Sir Samuel Griffith suggested
bill, it seems to me to be a radical mistake that the whole question should be left to the
to arrange for intercolonial free-trade dur- federal parliament. I look upon that as a
ing the first year of the uniform duties. pis aller. If we cannot do better we shall
That year will, in the case of New South have to adopt that course. On that subject
Wales, at all events, be a bad year upon
I will quote from what will be recognised
which to commence our average, because as an authority on such a subject--the Aus-
in the last year of the present tariffs tralasian Insurance and Banking Record.
naturally merchants and others will send An HON. MEMBER : Who wrote it. ?
(Mr. Walker.
Commonwealth of
59
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. WALKER: I did not. That recognise that this Convention will not ac-
journal says:
cept that scheme. At the last session, so
Another suggested mode of getting over the far as I could judge from the votes, thirty-
Clifficulty is to remit the whole question of fed-
six members were against taking over the
eral finance to the parliament of the common-
railways, so that it would be a waste of
wealth, giving it a free hand. A more unbusi-
time to advocate it. I never did advocate
nesslike proposal can hardly be conceived. It is
equivalent to asking several men to sign a deed a clear purchasing out of the railways; I
of partnership in blank and to settle the terms
advocated federation of the railways which
of partnership afterwards, and the terms are to
would have left each state full permission
be settled, it is to be presumed, by members of
parliament of like calibre to the members of the
to have its own differential rates, so that
convention, who have made such a dismal failure the idea of New South Wales being robbed,
of the fiscal sections of the Federation Bill. The
as some people seem to suppose would be
colonies are, however, hardly likely to enter into
the case, never entered my mind. I would
partnership without clearly settling the terms
first.
take all reasonable precautions against
So say I for one. In the case of South such a thing occurring. With regard to
Australia, which derives considerable profit
the consolidation of the debts, I have
from the post and telegraph department, something to say. Under any system of
some special arrangement will have to be
federal finance it is evident that there
made. I do not say that it should last for will be, nominally, a large surplus, that is
all time, but an allowance of so much for to say, the customs receipts will be largely
the first year, so much for the next year,
in excess of the federal government expen-
and so on till the fifth year would have to
diture. The hon. and learned member, Mr.
be made in a case like that. Again, in a
Deakin, has in general terms said that he
case like that of Tasmania, which must
wasinclined to think that the surplus going
have a larger revenue than a uniform tariff to each state might take the form of the
will give, there will be a loss for some federal government paying so much interest
time, and that might be made a charge on
on behalf of that state, and taking over,
the federal government, because otherwise therefore, so much of the debt. Of course
the tariff would have to be raised to an right through I have been a believer in
enormous amount to give Tasmania what the conversion and the consolidation of
she requires on a per capita basis. It the debts, if it can be done without per-
would be much better to subsidise tem- petrating a wrong. I am aware that you
porarily a state in that position than to cannot have a federation of the railways
take the course of unduly raising the tariff. at the present time; but is there any good
If we could get Tasmania into line with reason why we should not take steps to
the continent, the continent could afford have the debts converted and consolidated ?
to have a much lighter tariff than other- Putting it briefly this way: We shall sup-
wise would be the case.
pose that there is an income from customs,
An Hon. MEMBER : That is to give Tas- if Queensland comesin, of about £6,300,000
mania a bonus !
a year, or about £1 15s. per head. That
Mr. WALKER: A bonus or subsidy. will.not be sufficient in some people's view.
I am not going to wcary. the Committee If we take off £1,300,000 for the expenses
by going fully into the question of the of the federal government, that will leave
railways. The hon. member, Mr. McMil- à surplus of £5,000,000. New South
lan, has referred to various schemes. He Wales, on a population basis, would be
referred to one which was drafted at the entitled, I presume, to about one-third of
· Bathurst Convention, I may say that I that amount. The interest of the debt of
60
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.
New South Wales is about £2,300,000 a First, as to the idea of substituting “ Austral-
asian consols as an interminable stock for the
year. Her share of the surplus would be
various colonial debentures and stocks.
£1,650,000 a year or thereabouts. The
We think the idea is a very good one, and if
difference between what would be neces- it could be carried out, we believe the result
sary to pay the whole of the interest on would be a considerable saving. But it is diffi-
cult to see how the debts of the various colonies
the New South Wales public debt and the
could be consolidated until federation, on satis-
surplus would be something like £650,000
factory lines, has been accomplished. It seems
a year. Why should not New South Wales,
to us that until the colonies have obtained feder-
or any other colony, after bypothecating a
ation, and the federal government has full power
over the railways and customs to enable it to
portion of its net railway income go to the
provide for the service of the debt, it will not be
federal government, and say, “Our share
possible to secure consolidation; but if you are
of the federal surplus plus this amount of successful in federating the colonies, we think
our railway income will be sufficient to
consolidation of the debts will follow as a neces-
sary corollary.
enable you to pay the whole of the interest
Federation will be incomplete without con-
on our debt"?
solidation of the debts.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
I think that voices the sentiments of every
amountofinterest payable would be reduced
man here.
after consolidation !
Secondly, as to whether the consolidated stock
Mr. WALKER: No doubt that would
idea could be brought into practical operation in
be the case. For instance, in this supposed such a way that the various debentures and
year £650,000 would be required by New stocks could be merged in time in the consoli-
South Wales to enable her to pay the bal-
dated account,
ance of interest on her debt. That would
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: “In time"!
be half the net railway income for the
Mr. WALKER: I quite agree with
year. After consolidating the debts, how-
the hon, member. I am not one of those
ever, the amount of interest would be so
who want to rush like a bull at a china
much less, and New South Wales would shop, and to get things done right off.
only have to be asked for sufficient of her We think this could be done; but by this
railway income to make up the difference.
process it would take a long time before all the
various debts were consolidated, and for so long
On this subject of the consolidation of the
the benefits anticipated from consolidation would
debts I am not relying merely on my be delayed. It would also be a rather difficult
own judgment. I wrote to a gentleman in matter to arrange, and we doubt if it would
London who is recognised as a high autho-
prove satisfactory. It would create an anomalous
state of affairs to have only the loans as they
rity—that is Mr. David George--who has
mature brought into the consolidated stock as a
had thirty-five years' banking experience debt of the federal government, leaving the out-
in London, and is at present manager there
standing loans as debts of the different colonies
of the Bank of New South Wales. He has
who contracted them to remain intact until their
maturity the same as at present, except, we
had a good deal to do in days gone by with
suppose, that their management would be in the
the negotiation of loans, and he has conse- hands of the federal government
quently acquired extensive practical experi-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No
His letter is an admirable one, and one would suggest that, surely !
I will read it. He says:
Mr. WALKER: No.
Consolidation of colonial debts.
Thirdly, as to bringing about a consolidation
Referring to your letter of Ist February, we into Australasian consols at once of all the various
have now considered the subject of your inquiry, debts of the colonies.
and, perhaps, the best plan would be to take the This we believe to be the bestºplan; but in
different points in your letter and answer them order to carry it out a large co
it out a large conversion scheme
seriatim.
would have to be introduced. The whole ques-
ence.
[Mr. Walker
Commonwealth of
61
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion depends upon terms—that is to say, the cause any scheme to result in failure, therefore
quid pro quo that would be offered to the holders we would certainly recommend a 3 per cent.
of the different stocks to induce them to ex- inscribed stock, and we believe that in course of
change their present securities into stock of the time it would go to a premium. If the whole of
consolidated fund
the debts were consolidated into one stock, it
would make a very big market on our Stock
An Hon. MEMBER : What is the quid Exchange, and would cause larger dealings, and
pro quo
?
attract more public attention, and become a
more favourite investment.
Mr. WALKER: He shows you now
Fifthly, as to whether such a consolidated in-
This, of course, will be a difficult and delicate
scribed 3 per cent. stock would be likely to be
matter to arrange, and it will require to be
placed upon the list of " trustees' securities,"
placed in the hands of actuarial experts of great
experience and skill to ascertain the relative This is a very important matter, and I
values of the different loans of the separate colo- dare say the Premier of Victoria could tell
nies to a single interminable consolidated in- us that it is not at all an easy thing to
scribed stock, and the most influential medium
get any stock put on that list.
will have to be employed to launch the scheme,
and to find an opportune time for the purpose.
We very much doubt if this could be done
The varying dates of maturity, and rates of in-
unless the federal government consented to give
terest, and the feeling existing here as to the
the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that is the
British Government-control over the borrowing
position which the different colonies afford as
powers.
security for their loans, would all have to be
taken in account. Present holders cannot be
I told him that they would never do that.
compelled to exchange their securities, and,
The idea seems to be that the home Govern-
therefore, sufficiently liberal terms will have to
ment would not authorise any stock to be
be offered to induce the great bulk of them to
placed on the privileged list of trustees' securi-
fall in with a conversion scheme. The different
ties unless they had some power over it. But
merits and values of the loans of the various
apart from this, many people by will authorise
colonies will make it difficult to ascertain an all
their trustees and executors to hold colonial
round satisfactory basis of exchange. Holders,
stocks, and if a satisfactory scheme of federation
for instance, of New South Wales securities,
could be carried through and all the debts con-
owing to their superior credit, will require a
solidated into one stock, and some satisfactory
greater inducement to exchange their present
restrictions made as to borrowing and good pro-
holdings, while it'may suit holders of Victorian,
vision made for paying off the debt, we believe
South Australian, and. Tasmanian stocks to
a great many more investors in colonial securities
accept a security of a federated Australia much
would by will authorise their executors to hold
more readily.
the new stock as trust funds. Most regrettable
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : South as it is, since 1893 the relative credit of the
Australia is a long way ahead of the
colonies has materially suffered in the estimation
others!
of British investors, and, difficult as it would
have been before then to have obtained an act
Mr. WALKER:
of parliament creating colonial loans trustees'
As an illustration of this, to give the present stocks, the difficulty is greater now, and the
quotation of the three Australian 3 per cent. in- prospect much more remote. But with good
scribed stocks, namely :-New South Wales, 3
and economical management by a federal govern-
per cent., 1935, 1011–8; Western Australia, 3 ment, and some finality in borrowing, there is
per cent., 1915–35, 99-4; South Australia, 3
no doubt the present feeling will pass away, and
per cent., 1916–26, 981-*.
the stock of the federation become more and
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : They were
more as time goes on a stock which will be
expecting a loan then !
authorised in wills to be held by trustees. There
is a continual tendency to do this with good
Mr. WALKER :
stocks outside the privileged list owing to the
Fourthly, as to the rate of interest upon
returns from trustees' stocks being now so small.
which such a conversion should be based,-
Sixthly, as to whether inscribed stock or
We certainly think that the best rate would
debentures would be the better form in which
be 3 per cent. This we believe would be the most the consolidated debt could be issued, -
practical basis upon which the debt could be We have no hesitation in saying that inscribed
consolidated. A lower rate we fear would simply stock would, beyond question, be preferable.
>
62
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Owing to the risks of fire and robbery this form An HON. MEMBER : How long would
of security is now most favoured by the invest-
you give ?
ing public, and it is the only form of stock
Mr. WALKER: I do not desire to
likely to be held by trustees. Our opinion differs
from Sir Samuel Montague's as regards colonial
follow that up at all. I would leave that
bonds. From our own experience we are quite to the federal parliament. Probably ten
sure that a comparatively small amount of the
years would be likely to be a sufficient
present bonds are held by people on the Con-
time.
tinent. They are not dealt in on the Continental
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Five
exchanges, and it would be obviously impossible
to issue two forms, namely, bonds and stock ; years was accepted as a compromise!
but in the event of a better security being re- Mr. WALKER: I do not think it would
quired for borrowing or other purposes there suit New South Wales, Western Australia,
will be no difficulty in arranging for the issue as
in the case of consols of bearer's certificates with
or Queensland. I am very certain it would
coupons attached, and which can be reinscribed not.
when so desired by the holder.
An HON. MEMBER: What does the hon.
We have seen Mr. Rose, the senior of Messrs. member
proposé ?
Hinton, Clarke, & Co., our stock-brokers, and he Mr. WALKER: I propose to capitalise
entirely agrees with our opinions expressed
above.
the discrepancies at the end of five years
if the commonwealth parliament so desires.
I am sorry to be obliged to read such a
I will show what I mean by cạpitalising
long letter; but it is a very important one.
discrepancies. At the end of five years,
My impression is that the fears of many
the commonwealth parliament will have
persons that federation is going to be an
sufficient data to go upon to say what has
additional expense will be largely removed
been the average contribution according to
if they are assured that we shall save by
the population of each state.
the consolidation of the debts, as much as
the extra expenditure will be in founding is, if they keep accounts during the five
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
the federal government.
[The Chairman left the chair at 1 p.m. The Mr. WALKER: I am presuming that
Committee resumed at 2 p.m.]
we shall keep accounts. But where a state
Mr. WALKER: I desire at this point
contributes in excess of the average con-
to elucidate the remark which I made with tribution per head, such annual excess on
regard to bounties. The hon, and learned an average of four or five years may be
member, Mr. Barton, asked how these determined, and shall be capitalised, say,
would be provided for. Of course, the idea at thirty years' purchase, and the common-
is that the customs duties will produce a wealth shall issue its funded stock for the
sufficient income out of which to pay, if amount so ascertained, or relieve the state
the federal parliament so desire it, certain of a similar amount of its public debt at
bounties where it is decided to grant boun-
the current market value of the stock, pro-
ties. That is all on that point. My hon. vided that where the state contributes less
friend, Mr. Holder, seems to think that I than the average contribution per head,
am against the principle, so-called, of a such annual deficiency on an average of
sliding scale.
It is not the principle so four or five years shall also be capitalised
much that I object to as the application of at thirty years' purchase, and the state
the principle. I think five years far too
issue its funded stock for the amount so
short a time within which to expect each
ascertained. The course will be that in
colony to come into line as to customs con- the one case an annual subsidy will be
tributions.
granted, that is to say, for the surplus due
years !
[Mr. Walker.
Commonwealth of
63
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to one state, and the money should come furnishing false returns to the govern
out of the consolidated fund, before the ment. All that will be required will be
anuual per capita distribution, and in the for the exporters to prepare invoices in
other case the amount will be retained by triplicate-one copy for the customs de-
the federal government out of the surplus partment in their own state, one for the
otherwise payable to the state.
house to whom the goods are consigned,
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: At what rate and one to be sent by the importing house
would you capitalise ?
after they have received the goods to the
Mr. WALKER : I say thirty years. customs department in their state. The
It ought to be thirty-three and one-third invoice will show the value of the goods
years, but that is a matter of detail. and the amount of the duty paid. The
An Hon. MEMBER : Will the state re- remaiņder will be merely book-keeping in
ceive the money in cash in the meantime ? the customs department. There will be no
Mr. WALKER : That also is a matter border customs officers, consequently there
which depends upon whether you are going will be no vexatious examination of goods.
to consolidate the debts. If you consoli- An Hon. MEMBER : You would trust to
date the debts the state will not get so much the importers to send the returns !
cash back, but will get the interest paid Mr. WALKER: They would have no
for an equivalent amount. I see my hon. object in telling lies, and it is only for five
friend, Mr. Henry, will follow me and, per- years.
Then the trouble comes in with
haps, cut me up on this matter ; but I regard to the retail goods. This is where
trust that I have the courage of my con- the great trouble does come in. To getover
victions.
that I propose this: during the two years
An Hon. MEMBER: Do I understand during which the present customs duties
you to say that, if they gave a state too are going on, and in the first year of
much, you would expect it to refund by the uniform duties we shall have certain
capitalisation
data which will enable us from that
Mr. WALKER: No. Under the book- time forth to say approximately that the
keeping principle every state will get back broken bulk goods crossing the border are
what it pays in, less a per capita propor- so much, and they will, not improbably,
tion towards the federation government continue much the same in future as in
expenses.
the past. The federal government, from
An Hon. MEMBER : No sliding scale ! the statistics obtained during the three
Mr. WALKER: No; I am not going previous years that is, two years of the
in for a sliding scale at all. With regard present customs duties, and one year of the
to statistics during those four or five years, uniform duties--would, no doubt, have a
I know that many hon. members object fairly good idea of the course of trade across
to the book-keeping principle. I combat the border, and could arrange a system to
that view as follows:- I think there is a allow drawbacks by lump sums between
great misapprehension with regard to the the colonies for locally manufactured articles
difficulty. To begin with, each state has and for broken bulk imported goods. That
already its statistical department. Goods would enable retailers. to send goods across
crossing the border will not require to be the border without any statistics. We
examined by the customs officials after should only have statistics of the whole-
the institution of intercolonial free-trade. sale goods. I have already said that I
Neither importers por exporters, if so think it is a great mistake to lay down
disposed, will have any object to gain by hard and fast lines of expenditure.
64 Commonwealth of [6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
who says:
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Why be certain strategic railways-possibly to
do you capitalise on an average of four connect South Australia with Western Aus-
years?
tralia, or the northern end of the South
Mr. WALKER: I am not tied to four
Australian line with Port Darwin. I trust
years. I do not care whether it is four or sufficient power will be given in the federal
five years; but I argue in this way: It is
constitution to enable the federal govern-
proposed to have five years' uniform duties.
ment, when they think the time has come,
I think the firstyear will not be a good year
to take in hand these great national under-
for statistical purposes, because it would takings. I do not for a moment think we
be affected by the over-importation of the
should be justified, from a free-trade point
previous year into New South Wales. of view at all events, in guaranteeing that
So that for statistical purposes--that is to
each of the states shall get back as much
ascertain the average contribution in an
income for so many years as it received
the
ordinary time-I would take the second,
year before the institution of the uni-
third, fourth, and fifth years. I am not
form tariff. The reason why I cannot agree
wedded to four years or to five years. If to that is this : that it practically means
you are going to have a sliding scale, I
that in the colony of New South Wales we
should have to submit to enormous customs
think it would be better to take fifteen
duties—that is to say, judging by the re-
years or even twenty years. On this matter
I think the views of the Convention are in
marks made by the Acting Government
touch with those of Sir Samuel Griffith,
Statistician. This gentleman contrasts the
consequences of a uniform tariff upon the
different colonies. The figures he gives are
Is this too great a responsibility to be entrusted
to the federal parliament?
so extraordinary that I may be excused
for quoting them.
That is the final settlement of the discre-
An Hon. MEMBER : It is purely assump-
pancy.
tion !
That body will have more information, more
Mr. WALKER: I admit that. He
time at its disposal, and more real sense of im-
mediate responsibility, than a convention can says:
have. Moreover, its mistakes can be corrected,
As the results stand, however, they show that
while those of the Convention cannot, without
on the basis of population at the close of the
serious trouble, delay, and danger.
year 1896, the New South Wales tariff, as it
I am one of those who thoroughly believe in
will exist in July, 1897, will probably yield to
the commonwealth the sum of £3,517,000; the
the principle of federation. I am prepared
Victorian tariff, the sum of £6,260,000; the
to support any moderate scheme by which
South Australian tariff, £5,975,000; the Western
we can come together. Just one word Australian tariff, £4,712,000; and the Tas-
more with regard to the railways. Al- manian tariff, £7,429,000; allowance being made
though I think it is impracticable to have
for the freedom of intercolonial trade.
an amalgamation of the railways at pre- It would be very much better if the federal
sent, or even a federation of the railways government had power, if need be, to subsi-
-I distinguish between the two—there dise Tasmania than that New South Wales
are certain things that I think the federal should have to submit to a tariff which
government, as such, ought to take in would bring in £7,429,000 as against even
hand. There is the unification of the the Victorian tariff yielding £6,260,000.
gauges. I think that is a matter the ex- Surely we ought to empower the federal
pense of which ought to be defrayed by government to give subsidies, because fed-
the federal government. Then there may eration is a national matter. I do not wish
t
[Mr. Walker.
Commonwealth of
65
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to speak otherwise than in a complimentary The Hon. J. HENRY: Quite so. A con-
manner of our Tasmanian friends; but I siderable minority, of whom I was one, who
hope there would be on their part no false were strongly opposed to the whole of the
pride to prevent them, if need be, accept- scheme, kept their mouths shut, waiting
ing a subsidy for a short time, to bring all for this opportunity. Otherwise it is un-
the colonies to the same level. One word doubted that the whole scheme would have
more with regard to free-trade. A member been discussed at length, and the views of
of the Legislative Council in this colony the minority would have been put before
has been twitting me that, as a free-trader, the Convention and before the public. I
I am going to give away New South Wales. regret to think that, after the lapse of some
He thought he made a very good point four months, and after the discussion that
against me by drawing my attention to has taken place on the scheme proposed in
the fact that at the time of the union of this bill—that is the book-keeping portion
England and Scotland, England was a pro- an hon. member of this Convention
tectionist country and Scotland was a free- should stand up and still declare himself
trade country, and he said, “There you a pronounced supporter of that scheme. I
are! A free-trade country like Scotland notice however, that the ground is some-
went into partnership with a protectionist what shifted, and it is contended that it
country like England, and it had to become would not be fair in the interests of New
practically protectionist.” My reply to that South Wales to adopt the first year of the.
is “Yes, but, as time went on, the truths sliding scale. I especially noticed that my
of free-trade permeated England so much
hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, whose able and
that to-day we have free-trade in Great · admirable address I listened to with great
Britain." I trust we shall also have attention, was also still wedded to the five
Queensland with us before we close our years. While professing his readiness to
work,
trust implicitly to the federal parliament,
The Hon.J.HENRY (Tasmania)[2.16]: the hon. gentleman would not trust them
In rising to address myself to this important
for the first five years.
question, I think it is well that I should Mr. McMILLAN : I would trust them,
say that in my opinion the financial ques- but I do not think the other colonies would.
tion as embodied in this bill was not de- It was in deference to the other colonies
bated at the Adelaide Convention. It is that I took that view !
within the memory of every hon. member
The Hon. J. HENRY: I am very glad
that the Right Hon. G. H. Reid got up in to hear the hon. gentleman say so, as it will
the Convention and addressed himself to
save much trouble. However, I feel that it
the question, and that before sitting down becomes my duty to express the very strong
heproposed that the four Treasurers should opinions I hold against the proposed sys-
meet and prepare a scheme to be sub- tem of book-keeping. I hold that the pro-
mitted for the approval of the Convention. posal to keep accounts of the customs duties
That was done; and, as the Premiers were collected by the several states for a period
going away, we all thought it was quite of five years is anti-federal in spirit, in-
hopeless to enter upon the task of discuss- equitable, and in my judgment, unwork-
ing the financial proposals until this meet- able.
ing of the Convention. I think it is only Mr. WALKER: Will the hon. gentleman
right to say that.
explain how it is inequitable?
Mr. McMILLAN: We only looked upon
The Hon. J. HENRY: The hon. member
it as tentative!
has himself admitted its inequality by
E
66
Australia Biti.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
abandoning the proposal as regards the first cerned, to federate on a mere per capita
year. If the Right Hon. Sir George Turner distribution of any surplus would not be
can carry his memory back to within twenty- just to that colony, and that some special
four hours after the scheme was proposed provision will require to be made if the
—if all the pomp and ceremony through conditions are the same hereafter as they
which he has recently passed has not put are now. The point I wish to make is
it out of his mind-he will recollect dis- this : that for all time there must be a
tinctly that I pointed out the difficulty of difference in the wealth of the several colo-
the position, and that Mr. McMillan and nies, ard it is in proportion to the wealth
myself, as commercial men, both saw that and population of the respective colonies
when the astute member for New South that their proper contributions through cus-
Wales, the Right Hon. G. H. Reid, thought toms and excise will be. That is inevitable.
he made a splendid bargain for his colony, Are we to attempt, in a constitution bill,
he really made the greatest mistake a man to provide for the inevitable changes in the
possibly could make in the interests of his future in regard to the increase or decrease
colony. I do not think I need refer much of wealth in any particular colony? If we
further to the inequality, because it is ad- intend to federate the rich and the poor
mitted on all hands. I was pleased to read must come in alike. The richer colonies
the admirable article by Mr. Nash, which must be prepared to take the poorer colonies
exposed the whole thing so clearly, and along with them, or there will be no true
which was entirely in accord with my views, federation. With reference to Western
expressed within twenty-four hours of the Australia, let us go back to 1891, to see the
proposal being made. I fear to enter at changes which are inevitable in the future
length upon this book-keeping question lest in regard to any of the colonies—changes
I might weary hon. members; but I have which we cannot possibly foresee. Let us
given the question a good deal of considera- take a retrospective view of the history of
tion, and I regret to find that my hon. col- Western Australia, going back to 1891
league, Sir Philip Fysh, has been carried when the convention bill was framed.
away by the figures, and has adopted the An HON. MEMBER : That was before the
view that in the interests of New South gold !
Wales and fair play book-keeping will be
The Hon. J. HENRY : I admit it was,
necessary. It will be my duty to endeavour but that is the point to which I wish to draw
to show that those figures were founded on attention. Who could then foresee the
á fallacy. What is the common idea in con- position of Western Australia ? I wish to
nection with this business? It is proposed, point to the great object lesson we have
as regards trade, that we should be one in Western Australia, to show the pos-
people. What is the corollary to that? sible changes which may be lying ahead
In my judgment that we should have one of us, and which we cannot foresee, and
common purse to which the revenue should to show how impossible it is, in a constitu-
flow, and that out of that common purse the
tion bill, in view of those changes, to pro-
whole of the charges in connection with vide for perfect equity in connection with
federation should be paid. It is urged that the financial question. Who could possibly
the state of the finances of a colony like foresee what the condition of Western
New South Wales on the one hand, and Australia would have been to-day ? I
Western Australia on the other, is such think it would be instructive to inquire-
that that would be inequitable. I grant into the causes of her present prosperity.
that so far as Western Australia is con- It has been stated to-day that one of the
[The Hon. J. Henry.
:
Commonwealth of
67
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Brit.
causes is the excess of males in the popu- The Hon. J. HENRY: It appears to me
lation. There is no doubt that is one im. that the proposal to keep accounts of what
portant factor, but there is also another
the different colonies consume is very paro-
important factor in her prosperity. West- chial. I know that, so far as the colony of
ern Australia is now passing through a Tasmania is concerned, different sections of
similar experience to that through which the community contribute very differently
many other colonies have passed. She is to customs revenue. We might as well,
having a boom period. What is causing in that colony, divide the country into
the large increase in her customs revenue, parishes and find out what our west coast,
independent altogether of her male popu- which is a considerable mining centre, and
lation ? It is the large amount of privately where there is a considerable excess of
borrowed money which is being poured into males, contributes relatively to any of the
the colony for the development of hermines, cities or agricultural districts. The idea
and the pnblic borrowing as well. The is anti-federal in spirit ; that is how
money comes in in the shape of goods, it presents itself to my mind. I know
and under the customs tariff there is a what has led to this. Those of us who
very considerable toll levied as the borrowed were engaged on the Finance Committee
money flows into the country. That is the know what led to the introduction of this
obvious reason of her present abnormal book-keeping idea. It was the fear that
prosperity and of the increase in her cus- New South Wales was going to make great
toms revenue. The question naturally sacrifices by a per capita distribution of
arises, how long is this going to last? Of surplus, and that the only way New South
course she is stocked up very heavily now. Wales could have justice done to it, rela-
Loads of mining machinery, building ma- tively to the colony of Victoria, was to
terial, furniture, and so on, are being poured have this book-keeping system carried out,
into this new country, and there is no doubt so that each colony should know exactly
that for some time, with a great output what customs' duties it paid. The whole
of gold, there is great prosperity before her. of this is founded on certain figures pub-
But before we have a uniform tariff who lished by Mr. Coghlan, and I have no
can foretell what changes may take place hesitation in saying, after a study of the
in the revenue of Western Australia? I subject, and after having had the assist-
merely point to this as an illustration. ance of our able statistician, Mr. Johnston,
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : Is that they are founded on fallacy.
she going down, do you think ?
The Hon. E. BARTON: I quite agree with
The Hon. J. HENRY: I do not say that. the hon. member-absolute fallacy !
I haveno doubt Western Australia will pass The Hon. J. HENRY: I hope I shall de-
through the same experience as other colo- monstrate the fallacy before sitting down,
nies have passed through. She will have In the first place, Mr. Coghlan-and I notice
a period of fall. She cannot go on borrow- that the figures are repeated in the "Notes
ing money for ever. I point to this fact on Federal Finance” which have been
as showing how difficult it is, in a consti- placed in our hands-founds his estimate
tution bill, to provide for all the changes on the imports of Victoria and New South
lying ahead of us in these colonies. The Wales for three particular years,1893,
proposal to keep accounts of all the goods 1894, 1895. What are the facts? We
passing between the several colonies seems are all familiar with that terrible period of
to me to be a parochial idea.
depression from whichI think I am jus-
Mr. WALKER : Oh!
tified in saying it - Victoria especially
68
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
16 SEPT., 1897.)
T
sumer.
suffered during 1893–94. Prior to that, we tariff, suit the New South Wales con-
all know the abnormal cxcess of imports
Should not the manufactures of
over exports in the colony of Victoria, Victoria, if they suit the Victorian con-
which surprised and astonished so many. sumer, also find consumers across the
They had gone on during their boom period New South Wales border? In my judg-
just as our Western Australian friends are ment it will be found, with a uniform
having their boom period now—they had tariff, that goods from New South Wales
imported heavily, and when the collapse will flow into Victoria and goods from
came, Victoria was heavily stocked with Victoria will flow into New South Wales.
building material and all the commodities What are we federating for but to secure
used by the wealthier classes. We all know larger markets and freer intercourse among
the terrible suffering that the wealthier the people ? I do not see that Victoria
classes in Victoria were called upon to would contribute less to the customs reve-
endure when the collapse came. They nue in consequence of her manufactures.
had not the power to purchase the goods I believe that it is one of the fallacies con-
they had been accustomed to buy, the tained in this paper.
country was heavily stocked, and for a The Hon. A. DEAKIN : I was merely
considerable period people were working answering the Right Hon. G. H. Reid's
to run down their stocks. I believe, interjection in regard to protection.
without going into statistics, that that is The Hon. J. HENRY : I was going to
a correct statement of the position. point out in connection with this question
Mr. Higgins: They were importing that in all probability, seeing that the
£24,000,000, and exporting £12,000,000 future federal tariff would not be likely to
worth !
be so high as the present Victorian tariff,
The Hon. J. HENRY: Yes; before Victoria would import goods which she does
that there is no doubt that the country was not import now. I think that is a reason-
heavily stocked, and I do not think that able supposition. However, what we want
New South Wales at the same time was in a to get at in considering the question as to
like disastrous position; therefore, to take the relative contribution by the several colo-
the imports of the two great colonies for nies, is the purchasing power of the people
that period is not a safe method of arriv- of the several colonies, and I say that that
ing at a just conclusion as to the purchas- is governed by the wealth of the colonies.
ing power of the people. Besides, I hold In proportion as one colony is richer than
that, under a uniform tariff
, the whole of another so will it contribute more to the
the trade relations of those two colonies, customs and excise revenue. As I have
and of all the colonies, will be entirely already said, I consulted our very able
changed. I am not at all in accord with statistician, Mr. Johnston, and I asked him
the view put forth by my hon. friend, to get out, on some better principle than
Mr. Deakin, that in consequence of Mr. Coghlan's, what the probable relative
the strides that Victoria has made in contribution by the people of each colony
certain manufactures she will not contri- would be, and I think that hon. members
bute as much under a uniform tariff as will be interested in knowing the method
New South Wales would. I take it that which Mr. Johnston adopted in getting it
if the hon. and learned member will tra- out, and the results. The method which
verse the case very closely he will find, in headopted was this: He took seven articles
all probability, that what suits the Vic- --t'ea, coffee, sugar, tobacco, spirits, wine,
torian consumer will, under a uniform and beer—and he made a very elaborate
[The Hon. J. Henry.
Commonwealth of
69
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
and careful analysis of the quantity con- ment just laid before us, that New South
sumed per head in each colony. This is Wales, under a uniform tariff, would con-
merely the method which our statistician tribute £2 3s. 9d., and Victoria £1 6s. 7d.
adopted for measuring the purchasing power Mr. SOLOMON : Does that not show that
of the people.
that method of ascertaining the purchasing
An Hon.MEMBER: Avery good method,
power is fallacious ?
too !
The Hon. J. HENRY: That is the whole
The Hon. J.HENRY: What are the re- of my argument. I am endeavouring to
sults ? I may state that these articles cover demonstrate the fallacy of this paper. Our
52 per cent. of the entire customs and excise common-sense revolts at it. What is the
duties. The statistician took the precise difference in the wage-earning power of the
quantities consumed in each colony accord- two great colonies? Will any one endea-
ing to the import returns, and he also took vour to persuade me with figures like those
the rates in Tasmania. Hon. members that there is a difference of 17s. 2d.
per
will see that it does not matter what par- head? The thing bears on the face of it
ticular rates were taken that would not its own refutation. I think that the figures
affect the question—but the interesting which I have just submitted demonstrate
point is that, with the Tasmanian rates, very conclusively that the tables which
and the precise quantities consumed in have been placed in our hands in “Notes
each colony-and each colony of course on Federal Finance," by the Acting. Go-
being calculated at the same rate—the vernment Statistician in New South Wales,
following is the result :-New South Wales are entirely fallacious.
would contribute £1 18s. 70.; Victoria, The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The facts
£1 18s.; Queensland, £1 17s. ; South of the importation are absolutely correct!
Australia, £1 12s. 4d. ; and Western Aus- The Hon. J. HENRY: I am not disput-
tralia, £2 17s. I may state that those are ing them. The right hon.gentleman has not
the quantities imported into the several been here during the whole of my speech
colonies in 1895.
or he would haveknown what my arguments
Mr. GLYNN: That makes Qucensland were.
I have no intention of going over
have a bigger purchasing power than New them again; but I have demonstrated that
South Wales !
the method of getting at the purchasing
The Hon. J.HENRY: No; Queensland, power of the people under the tariff of
£1 17s., and New South Wales, £1 18s. 7d. 1893, 1894, 1895, is fallacious.
Now I come back to Mr. Coghlan's figures The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The
in the paper which has just been given to us. method is right, but the application is
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: They are not
wrong!
thefigures of Mr. Coghlan, butof the Acting- The Hon. J. HENRY: The application is
Statistician!
wrong. I am sure that no one would admit
The Hon. J. HENRY: The statement more readily than the right hon. gentleman
is based on Mr. Coghlan's figures.
that when you get a difference of 17s. 2d.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : per head of the population between the pur-
Spirits alone were £2 10s. per head with chasing power of Victoria and New South
Wales the figures are thoroughly unre-
The Hon. J. HENRY: This is only a liable; and when I saw them I felt dis-
method adopted for getting at the pur- posed to cast the whole of the papers aside.
chasing power, not the contribution of each While I am dealing with this matter I
colony. We are asked to believe, in the state- think I might call attention to a very
us last year !
70
Australia Bill:
Commonwealth of
(6 SEPT.,. 1897.]
erroneous statement made in these papers. Of course, it is obvious that you must find
I do so because I know that there are out, when a parcel of goods passes from Vic-
wreckers about, who are desirous of de- toria to New South Wales, or from New
feating federation, and it is possible that South Wales to Victoria, what portion is
when the question comes to be discussed colonial product and what has paid duty,
in the several colonies they will use this because there will have to be a debit and
as an authoritative statement of one of the a credit entry. If the goods are passing
results of federation. This is the state- from Victoria to New South Wales, Vic-
ment to which I refer :
toria will have to be debited with the
Within the limits imposed by the bill for the amount of duty, and New South Wales will
first three years, the net cost of the federal have to be credited with that amount. There
authority, after making an allowance for the ex-
will have to be a debit and a credit entry
penditure of which the states will be relieved,
may reach little short of £600,000 in the aggre- for every parcel of goods passing between
gate, while the loss of revenue by intercolonial the two colonies. I will assume that
free-trade may involve the provincial govern- £1,000 worth of clothing is sent from Vic-
inents in a further deficiency of £450,000.
toria to New South Wales. The clothing,
As a matter of fact, the several state par- we will say, is made of Victorian tweed,
liaments will have entirely thrown over which, of course, is a colonial product.
their tariffs, and there will be no such But there are also the buttons, the twine,
thing under the bill: as intercolonial free-
the lining, and other material to be ac-
trade until we have a uniform tariff. The counted for. These articles, in all pro-
Right Hon. G. H. Reid must know that bability, would have paid duty, and it
very well. But put this statement before would be necessary to find out what their
the public, and circulate it amongst the value was, so that Victoria might be de-
colonies that there is going to be a loss bited with the duty which she had paid
under a system of intercolonial free-
upon them, and that New South Wales
trade
might be credited with the same amount.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Surely The whole system of book-keeping would
there will be a contraction in the customs be so full of difficulties that I think the
revenue ?
common-sense of the Convention will say
The Hon. J. HENRY: Yes, when we have that we should have none of it.
a. uniform tariff; but this applies to a period Mr. HIGGINS : Would the hon. member
prior to the introduction of that tariff. have no book-keeping for the two years
The man who wrote this statement did not before the uniform tariff ?
understand what he was writing. I have The Hon. J. HENRY: I am speaking
said that I believe that the book-keeping entirely of the period of the uniform tariff.
system will be unworkable, and I will The book-keeping for the period before the
endeavour to show in a few words what uniform tariff comes into operation is sim-
is in my mind in regard to it. I see here ple, because provision is madein the bill that
two veteran politicians, the Hon. Sir the customs revenue from the several states,
Graham Berry and the Hon. Adye Douglas, whatever it may be, less the proportion
both of whom have had some experience in per capita of the new expenditure of all the
attempting to make reciprocity treaties. states, shall be debited to their accounts.
But the difficulties which have arisen in The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: We
attempting to arrange reciprocity treaties do not want to say per capita. We shall
will arise under the book-keeping system in know the actual expenditure of each
passing goods from one colony to another. colony !
[The Hon. J. Henry.
Commonwealth of [6- SEPT., 1897.]
7:1
Australia Bill.
The Hon. J. HENRY: Yes ; but I am imperative that the federal government
talking about the new machinery. Each shall take over the obligations of the states,
colony will share the new expenditure. because; otherwise, we shall not be able
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : to get on. Tasmania, by the amendments
They will do that. Each state will pay its
which hon. members will see in the bill,
own share!
proposes that, to start with, the federal
The Hon. J. HENRY : Each state will
government should take over an equal
amount of debt from each colony.
pay its own share upon a per capita basis.
Mr. HIGGINS : Absolutely ?
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Not
The Hon. J. HENRY : Per capita,
upon a per capita basis!
taking the colony with the least amount
The Hon. J. HENRY : It has been sug-
of indebtedness per head as the basis.
gested by Sir Samuel Griffith that the states
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
should have power to impose special cus-
The Hon. J.HENRY: Iunderstand from
toms duties subsidiary to those imposed by
the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest that West-
the federal government. I think the hon.
ern Australia has suggested an amendment,
member, Mr. Walker, also made that
using the word adults " instead of the
suggestion.
words "per capita.” That, no doubt is a
Mr. WALKER : I did not say anything point worth considering; but I wish now
about it!
to explain the Tasmanian proposal. It is
The Hon.J.HENRY: It was suggested
this: In the first instance, the federal
to me that the bon. member was in favour
government shall take over the responsi-
of some such arrangement. I can scarcely bility for the debts of all the colonies';
imagine a states custom-house and a federal
but it shall only relieve each colony of an
custom house alongside each other. How-
equal amount, assuming that that is the
ever, that is one of the alternative pro-
lowest amount that any colony. owes. Take
posals, and I think it has only to be men-
the case of Victoria, for example. I think
tioned to be disregarded.
I am right in saying that the indebted-
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is like the plan ness of Victoria is about £40. per head of
of the Irishman, who made a big hole population. That would mean that the
through the fence to enable the hens to
federal government would relieve the
come into the yard, and a little hole to
several states of £10 per head of their
allow the chickens to get through ! public debt, and that the balance, the dif-
The Hon. J. HENRY: Yes. We should ference between the £40, and whatever
have to say on what articles the federal the debt might be would be a liability on
government should levy duties, and on what the part of the state. Now, under the
articles the states should be allowed to amendment of our Attorney-General, Mr.
levy duties. If the states were allowed to A. I. Clark, whose absence from this Con-
levy upon any particular article, they vention I certainly regret, it is proposed to
might levy a double duty. Now, I come have a census every five years. I am not
to the question of dealing with the state in accord with him in that respect. I think
debts. I should like to say something about the adjustment should take place annu-
the proposal of Tasmania, which was shortly ally. But the principle is there ; it is
described by the hon. member, Sir Philip elastic; and it accommodates itself to all
Fysh, this morning. Of course, many of changes. According to the increase of
us hold the opinion that when we part with population so would the federal govern-
the right to levy customs duties, it will be ment cancel the obligation. Mr. Ciark
72
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
proposes that bonds should be given. I do tion of which I have the honor to share has
not think there is any necessity for bonds. a great future before it. We have, accord-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Hear, hear! ing to reliable statistics, comparatively
The Hon. J. HENRY : It is simply an undeveloped mines in which there are
obligation on the part of the state, and of £30,000,000 of ore in sight. That being
course the necessary power could be given so, we are justified in anticipating a great
to levy such duties or taxes as might be increase in our mining population, and this
necessary. When the proper time comes I increased population, as contributors to the
hope the Convention will give that scheme customs, will in due course place us along-
due consideration. It is, as I have said, side the other colonies. We cannot enter a
elastic; it accommodates itself to all pos- federation if the incidence of our taxation is
sible changes in the future, and it is so changed as to largely increase our direct
thoroughly equitable.
and decrease our indirect taxation. But I
Mr. HIGGINS : What about the differing should feel' justified in going back to my
rates of interest ?
fellow-colonists, and saying that I would
The Hon. J. HENRY: We are bound in trust the future federal parliament im-
the amendment to 33 per cent. ; but I do plicitly. Whether we have federation now
not think there is such a great difference in or at some future time, the federal parlia-
the rates in the several states that we need ment will be made up of men who know
go into fractional amounts. Atall events the financial as well as the other require-
I have not thought closely upon that branch ments of the several states. Next to the
of the subject. I do not regard the plan great question of free-trade and protection
as providing thoroughly for the whole of which will have to be fought out, the para-
our debt, but it has a great deal to con- mount question to be considered will be
mend it. We should still have to trust the preservation of the state treasuries, and
to the federal government to set the state I, for my part, would be disposed to leave
finances right. No man has been more the whole question, with entire confidence,
pronounced in this Convention than I bave to the federal parliament.
been for insisting that there should be some The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
definite obligation upon the federal govern- tralia) [2.55]: I am very glad that on this
ment to keep the state finances right. I occasion the Convention is considering this
have in season and out of season advocated question, not in Committee, but publicly- ---
that; but I suppose I shall have now to in the light of day. I am sure the fact of
modify my views in this respect, having our consideration of the matter in Adelaide
regard to the enormous difficulties that lie in secret robbed our determinations of much
in front of us in drafting a scheme that will of that weight which otherwise might have
work equitably under all the changing con- attached to them. Persons have said to me
ditions of the future. I say that the federal concerning the matter, “We see your con-
treasury, the federal executive, the federal clusions ; but as we do not know the paths
parliament, assisted by the ablest men by which you arrived at them, we are
among the heads of departments, will be unable to say whether or not the conclu-
the right men to deal with this financial sions are justified ; and therefore we can-
question as the circumstances arise in each not say whether or not we can accept
year. I have pointed to the history of them.” On this occasion I hope that, not
Western Australia. We do not know what only shall we arrive at a right conclusion,
changes may be in the future for any of us. but that the pathway along which we
I know that the colony in the representa- travel will be made so clear that others
[The Hon. J. Henry.
Commonwealth of
73
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
outside will be able to note the way and fol- we should abolish cut-throat railway rates
low us in it. I am taking this afternoon a as that we should abolish rival border cus-
very easy rôle—one which has been followed
toms duties. The hon. member, Mr. Deakin,
by many ever since, in 1891, the financial
this morning thought that there was too
proposals referring to federation were first much made of what he spoke of as pre-
formed. It is easy to criticise other people's ferential railway rates. Now I am some-
work; it is easy to pull down, to find fault, what with him as to the point he made
to pick holes ; it is not so easy, by any with regard to differential rates growing
manner of means, to construct a scheme into preferential rates. It undoubtedly
with which other persons cannot find fault. must be admitted that what is a differential
I infer that the purpose of this debate at rate in a colony applied outside that colony
the present stage is rather to clear away may or may not be a preferential rate.
schemes which will not run, to remove But in many cases it would be, I think,
theories against which there are serious an advantage that we should lay down
objections, rather than to set up theories the line, and say that such a rate should
of our own. Therefore, I do not propose be tolerated as might be a differential
to conclude with any definite statement of rate applied beyond the borders of the
a scheme to take the place of the schemes colony on the same basis and on the same
we have; but I shall endeavour to show, principle as applies within the colony.
for the sake of those present, as well as for But so soon as you depart froin these prin-
the sake of those outside, some of the ciples, and, either to bring trade into a
strong objections that can be taken to
colony or to prevent trade going from one
some, if not to all of the various plans which colony to another, you adopt a principle
have been suggested. In dealing with Part which you would never adopt within your
IV of the bill, I think we are dealing with own borders, I think we come to a class
those provisions which have to do with of rates which we must absolutely pro-
the very essence of federation. If we wish hibit, or our federation will not be worthy
to establish a tariff of customs duties, we of the name. There is another question
must recognise that without uniform cus- included in this chapter which cannot be
toms there can be no true federation. А. left out of sight--that is, in relation to
federation, including states which main- the rivers. Reference was also made by
tained between them a customs warfare the hon, member, Mr. Deakin, to the fact
would be no federation. Then comes the that in many cases our rivers take the
question of the railways. I quite agreed place of railways. Where we have not
with my hon. friend, the Secretary for had waterways we have had to maintain
Lands of this colony, Mr. Carruthers, when our railways as methods of communication
he said in Adelaide that it was useless to do between state and state, and district and
away with the strife between the customs- district. But we have some waterways,
houses if we were merely to transfer that and they are as essential to us as our
strife to the railway-stations. I take, as I railways are, and the freedom of trade and
took cmphatically in Adelaide, this ground intercourse over them and along them is
-that unless our federation will serve not as essential to federation as is the freedom
merely to abolish the customs-house strife, of intercourse over our railway lines. I
but will also end the railway tariff strife, refer specially, of course, to the rivers
it will not be a federation worthy of us, or Murray and Darling. Along those rivers,
worthy of the countries we wish to feder- from the furthest point away from their
ate. I think it is of equal importance that mouth, where navigation begins, right down
74
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[6. SEPT., 1897.]
to the mouth of the Murray itself, it is to my Wales were a private landowner and South
mind of the first importance, if we are to Australia were also a private landowner.
have real freedom of trade at all-if our We should then have the right to demand
freedom of intercourse between part and that a certain and proper flow of water
part of the great commonwealth is to be should come to us. We, as private land-
real and true—it is of the first importance owners, would then see that our rights in
that we should say we shall tolerate no this respect were not trenched upon. That is
interference with those principles which, all South Australia has sought; that is all
rightly applied, will secure equality of South Australia desires to assert in future.
trade over all those rivers. We cannot But what was the position taken up at
have equality of trade over those rivers the late session of this Convention at
we cannot make that use of them which Adelaide with reference to the Murray
the commonwealth is entitled to make- waters? The colony of New South Wales
unless we see that the riparian rights are would not, in any sense, permit the control
fully guarded. Of what use is it to us in of the Darling waters passing to the feder-
South Australia to have within our bor- ation, because both banks of the river were
ders both banks and a large portion of the in New South Wales. When, however, we
lower Murray unless we have the water came to deal with the lower Murray, where
flowing between those banks ? What is the both banks are in South Australia, it was
advantage to us of the possession of the maintained that quite a different principle
lower waters of the Murray which ought to must prevail. Federal control must never
come to us, if higher up, by means of locks come in when both banks belong to New
or irrigation works, large quantities of South Wales; but when both banks be-
water are taken away, and the river when long to South Australia federal control
it comes within our borders ceases to be must prevail. It may happen that the wolf
navigable ? As the hon. member, Mr. will obstruct free navigation, and yet we
Higgins, says, we have the bottle but not
are not to complain. The unfortunate
the liquor, and not many of us care much lamb down stream from the wolf was said
for the bottle without the liquor.
to be guilty of fouling the water to the detri-
The Right Hon. G. H. RCID: We are ment of the wolf, and, therefore, it had to
supplying you with the liquor all the time!
pay the penalty of death. Poor South
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I dare say Australia which is down stream with re-
New South Wales would not do it if she ference to geographical position compared
could help it. I think it is characteristic with New South Wales, must give up all
of New South Wales to give nothing away her riparian rights to the commonwealth ;
that she can keep her hands upon.
but New South Wales up stream, which
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Broken has the power of doing damage and may
Hill!
do it, would not give up any of her
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: For a very riparian rights to the commonwealth. Let
long time we have been striving to enforce us have fair play in this matter, which
in South Australia our riparian rights-to does not merely affect the rivers which I
obtain some recognition of those rights to am now dealing with, but which affects
which if we were private persons we should freedom of intercourse and trade between
be undoubtedly entitled. I take it that state and state, and between part and part
the position between South Australia and of the commonwealth. Let us bave fair
New South Wales is parallel to the rela- play in this matter. Either let us have
tion which would subsist, if New South all parts of this navigable stream within
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
75
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Azustralia. Bill.
federal control-and no one will then com- interests of the states. What are we doing
plain—or else let us see: that South Aus- to-day? We represent not some idea, some
tralia is left untouched in her right and conception of federation; we represent the
authority over the water of the Lower individual units of the population which
Murray. With regard to the concession makes up Australia. In all our deliber-
to her of all her riparian rights, do not ations, we conceive. as far as we can what
hand over to the federal authority powers will be the best for those individual units
properly belonging to South Australia.
on which the prosperity of the whole mass
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Did the will be built up, and the prosperity of the
hon. member mention the Lachlan River?
separate personsforming the mass. So it will
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: So far as bein the federal parliament. The prosperity
the Lachlan River is navigable precisely and strength of the federal authority will
the same argument will apply, and I am depend upon the prosperity and strength
very much. obliged to the right hon. gentle- of each individual. state comprising that
man for calling my attention to the fact. federation. Therefore I do not apologise
I am simply pointing out that whatever is for placing in the very forefront of my re-
done customs, railways, and rivers, must be marks a plea for the necessity of securing
taken together. Unless we consider and the strength and prosperity of every state
take them together all through this consti- to be in this commonwealth. I deprecate
tution, we shall not fully secure that free- what I am going to state being set aside as
dom of trade and commerce which I assume parochial. I object to its being said that
we ought to secure in a federal constitution. what I am about to state savours of paro-
Passing from these things more definitely to chialism or anything of that kind. That
the financial question involved in our con- is the kind of argument used. But I take
sideration, the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, my ground again where I took it before
said this morning that it mattered not to on this fact: that in my view the success
the federal authority whether there was a of federation itself must depend on the
surplus or not.
success of every state in it, and, therefore,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : I said it was not in arguing for the strength and financial
essential to the federal governments ! stability of the states, I am arguing, not for
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: In one sense that which is parochial, but for that which
the hon, member is right; in another he is is essential to the success and strength of
quite wrong. Seeing that it is essential the commonwealth itself.
to the federal government that the state
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The success of
shall prosper, it is essential to the federal the people of the states as well as the suc-
government that where it has taken over cess of the state governments !
from the states their chief engine of taxa-
The Hon. F. W.HOLDER:I think what
tion, it shall have something to return to I said carried me right back to the personal
them from the proceeds of that engine. It units, forming the states. We may begin
seems to me that a federation in which with the individual units on which the
the federal authority is not interested in states rest, and then take the state units
the solvency and prosperity of the states on which the commonwealth rests, and
is such a thing as we ought not to consider wherever we stand for the moment, what-
for a moment. In fact, our first duty to day
ever we argue from, of course the indivi-
is, and I think I can go further and say
dual unit must be that which is at the back
that the first duty of the federal parlia- of everything in our thoughts. Now, the
ment of the future will be, to conserve the question is raised by some, shall we have
1
76
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
a surplus or shall we not? I think the provide for the return of practically the
question answers itself. We must have a whole of the sum now collected from
surplus, or else the states of the federation customs and excise to the state from the
cannot carry on.
Let us look for a mo- federal authority. It has been said that
ment at their position to-day. In most of we need have no surplus, that we can
them there is not only the indirect taxation provide for a proportion of the debts to be
which is proposed to be handed over to
taken over.
I noticed with interest the
the commonwealth, but also some direct very practical remarks which my hon.
taxation, and in most of them just about friend, Mr. Henry, made on this question.
up to the measure of their capacity to The Tasmanian Parliament propose that a
carry it. I do not know any state, unless, certain proportion of the debts should be
indeed, it be this wealthy splendid state in taken over, and I think the hon. member
which we are assembled to-day, which can mentioned £40 per head. The average
afford any very considerable addition to interest on our public debt to day is 4 per
its present burden.
cent. I believe. Taking over £40 per head
An Hon. MEMBER : Queensland ! of the public debts of all the colonies would
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Queensland mean taking over an obligation amounting
might afford some. Besides those two states to £1 12s. per head of the population.
I do not know any other which can afford An Hon. MEMBER :
any very considerable addition to its present The Hon. F.W.HOLDER: It is notonly
taxation.
the insufficiency, it is the inequity I want to
Mr. HIGGINS : Victoria has no land- point out. How would that proposal work
value tax yet!
out? Under any conceivable new tariff the
The Hon. F.W. HOLDER: Victoria has people of New South Wales would, at least
a land-tax.
for some years, contribute a great deal
Mr. HIGGINS : It is not a land-value tax, more than £1 12s. per head of the popula-
and it only yields £120,000 !
tion. And under almost any conceivable
The Hon. F.W.HOLDER: I know it is tariff, Western Australia would contribute
not a very large sum ; but I do not think an immensely larger sum, for some time
my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, if he were the to come. Tasmania, certainly, would, for
Victorian Treasurer, would be free to pro- some years to come, contribute a less sum
pose any very considerable addition to than £1 12s. per head of its population from
the direct taxation of that colony. I am any conceivable tariff of the commonwealth.
wanting to point out that when the states What is the position ? The position is
have handed over to the federation, as it this: that we are asking that a return
is proposed they should, all their power of
shall be made to the states equal per head
customs and excise taxation, unless there over the whole commonwealth, while the
can be returned to them a sum very closely
contributions of the states are very un-
approximating to the sum which they re- equal. We shall be asking New South
alise from those sources, they will be not Wales to contribute perhaps £2 per head
only prospectively but at once in very of its population, and to receive back only
serious straits. I have spoken to post of £1 12s. per head; Tasmania to contribute
those who are here, I think all, on the perhaps 25s. per head, and to receive back
question, and I do not know a Treasurer 32s. per head. I do not mention South
or a budding Treasurer who would be will- Australia, because it is almost at the point
ing to go back to his colony and advocate of average for the whole of the colonies
any system of federation which did not in respect of customs and excise duties.
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
77
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The probability is that whatever plan suggested for dealing with the surplus-
be adopted South Australia will neither and I am taking it for granted that we must
suffer much loss nor realise much gain. have a surplus for the reason I have men-
South Australia is not far from the mean tioned—and among them is a suggestion
line. But if the basis of £1 12s. per head that we should have a book-keeping system.
be adopted, that is more than South Aus- I thoroughly agree with every word the
tralia is contributing per head through hon. member, Mr. Henry, said as to the
customs and excise. Therefore, while it undesirability, impracticability, and half a
would be a nice little arrangement for dozen other things of this book-keeping
South Australia, and might put £60,000 system. To my mind, one of the strongest
or £70,000 a year into our pockets, some recommendations, if not the strongest, of
one else would have to find that sum. federation is the rernoval of border custom-
New South Wales and Western Australia houses. How are you going to remove
would doubtless be the kindly parties. them if you are going to keep up the book-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: keeping system ? As long as you have
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: We do not your book-keeping system, as long as you
want any such position.. South Australia are taking these accounts strictly between
wants herown, if she can get it. She is going colony and colony, you must maintain
to get as near to her own as she can; but your border custom-houses, your border
she does not want one penny belonging to
customs officers, and practically all your
anyone else. I think I may say the same border customs restrictions. I have had
for Tasmania. We all of us want our own, some little experience of this system, and
no more and no less. That being so, it is I am going to repeat what I said in Ade-
apparent at once that neither £40 per laide, not publicly, but to the Finance
head, nor any other amount per head, equal Committee. In South Australia for some
over the whole commonwealth will do. years we have striven to keep accounts
You appear to wipe out the surplus, but very strictly between ourselves and the
you do not wipe it out at all. You simply Northern Territory, which in a sense is
provide that there shall be a return not of us, although it belongs to us. Part
equal per head over the whole population of the book-keeping necessary has been a
at once throughout the commonwealth. discrimination between duty paying goods
Suppose it were proposed that at once a and free goods passing over the border
per capita distribution of the surplus should or arriving by sea. The task has been a
take place, would that be accepted? Do practically impossible one.
It has in-
not even the representatives of Tasmania volved a scrutiny of goods, it has involved
themselves argue against the inequity of delays, it has involved in other ways all
such a proposal ? Is it not apparent to us
the difficulties of a hostile tariff, and this
all, whatever may be possible in the future, impossibility of its correct application has
that when things have settled down, and become apparent again and again. You
the new tariff has been some years in have shipments of goods which may in-
operation, it is simply out of the ques- clude dutiable goods of different kinds in
tion that we should begin right away
one article. You may have shipments in-
with an equal per capita distribution, cluding some dutiable goods and some that
which is what this scheme of taking over
are free. There may be South Australian
a certain proportion of the debts amounts tweeds which are not dutiable, or you
to if you go to bedrock in considering it. may have English tweeds, or some other
Now there have been various other schemes tweeds. The difficulty is to find out the
78
Australia Bizi.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.
origin of them. You may find out the gested that any surplus in the hands of
origin of one part of a shipment, but you the federal government shall be handed
may have a difficulty in finding out the back to the states after a reduction per
origin of another part, and it would not capita to meet expenditure. I want to
be certain whether the goods were dutiable point out the difficulty of that being carried
or not. If we are going to have that sys- out unless you have a book-keeping system.
tem carried on, not between South Aus- Suppose that there is a surplusof £5,000,000
tralia and the Northern Territory, but and the federal authority has to determine
between these great colonies with their where it arose, whence it came. Without
huge trade and intercourse, we shall have a book-keeping system they cannot tell. I
something that will be irksome in the ex- defy any federal treasurer or statistician if
treme, which will be unsatisfactory in the there is a surplus of £5,000,000 to say
extreme, and which will break down of its where it arose. Shipments of goods come
own weight as it ought to do.
into places like Sydney, and are sent away,
Mr. WALKER : What about collecting finding ultimate consumption in other
statistics?
places. There are distributing centres like
The Hon. F. W.HOLDER: Weshall, of Melbourne where goods come to and are
course, try to get all the statistics that we scattered far and wide. When we have
can with regard to trade and commerce; but uniform duties, and the duties are paid at
such statistics as 'will be required for a sys- the port of shipment, those places will be-
tem of book-keeping between all the colo- come distributing centres. Sydney will be
nies will, I hope, not be sanctioned by this a distributing centre, not only for its own
or any other Convention. If we are.going state, but also for Queensland and other
to have a hook-keeping system for twenty
states. Melbourne will become a distribut-
years, let us postpone federation for that ing centre, and goods paying duty in Mel-
time. If we are going to have this system bourne will be sent to Tasmania, South
of book-keeping for five years it amounts Australia, Western Australia, and else-
to postponing the benefits of federation where. Who is to say where they are
for another five years.
In South Aus- ultimately consumed, and yet it is where
tralia, when preparing the financial scheme, they are ultimately consumed that the duty
we very reluctantly, as the only way of belongs? How is it possible to find out to
dealing with the matter, after much shrink- which state the duty belongs ?
ing from it, adopted the scheme which An HON. MEMBER : You will have to
provided for book-keeping for one year,
ear-mark it all the time!
and we thought that that was a great deal
The Hon. F. W.HOLDER: Ofcourse the
to tolerate, and I am sure that we ought hon, member understands that that would
not to tolerate even that. Now, I come be quite impossible. If we are not going to
to another scheme which has been sug- have a system of book-keeping we must set
gested for dealing with the difficulty ; that aside as impracticable the scheme in the bill
is, returning to the states the amount of of 1891. Of course there the provision was
revenue that they contribute, less a per simply that until a uniform tariff came
capita contribution to the cost of federal into operation, book-keeping should be
government. There is a difficulty here to
carried on.
But a scheme was proposed
which I will call attention, not because I by which revenue was to be received and
do not think that any one has mentioned then paid back to the various states after
it, but because I desire to freshen hon. the deduction of the amount for federal
members' memories, It has been sug- expenditure. I say that that is impos-
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Cominonwealth of
79
[6 SEPT., 1897)
Australia Bill.
sible unless you have some principle laid a year, but we want a further guarantee.
down by which you will determine the Why not make a guarantee of so much per
proportion in which you will make the re- head of the population as the £600,000
turn to each separate state of the common- represents, and as population increases let
wealth. Then we have the proposal which the amount of the guarantee be carried on
was made by the hon. and learned member, with the increase of the population! If you
Mr. Deakin, this morning, to return to every do that you will be providing what would
state a fixed sum which may be based on the be a fair and equitable system.
last five or ten years, or may be arrived at Mr. TRENWITH : It is the same principle
in some other way, paying every state a in another form !
certain fixed sum in perpetuity. I will The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: It is sug-
refer to the case of South Australia, to gested that we should not trust the federal
give an illustration as to how this would parliament up to a certain amount; but
work. Put down our present customs and beyond that we should trust then alto-
excise duties at £600,000 a year. There gether. I think the two positions are incon-
is a small profit in the Post Office, but that sistent. I would rather trust the federal
would be swallowed up by losses on other parliament out andout from the first penny,
departments. It might fairly be assumed or else I think they cannot be trusted
that if South Australia received a grant with regard to the balance over £600,000.
from the federal authority of £600,000 a I would rather trust them all through
year in perpetuity, she ought to be satis-
and give them a free hand. They are not
fied. But the defect in the scheme is this : aliens or strangers--we should trust them
that, whilst for the present it would be all out-and-out. · Or if we must have guaran-
right, what about the future? Is South tees at their hands, let us take a guaran-
Australia going to remain for ever the size tee that will be worth something, not only
that she is to-day? As the population now, but ten, twenty, or thirty years bence.
increases, the cost of police and other local There is one other system, and that is the
administration which have to be paid out unfortunate sliding scale, which found its
of the state revenues will increase too. way into the Adelaide bill, and which has
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The proposal is to had short shrift since that time. That
give that much at least, and as much more sliding scale was a child of misfortune-
as the federal parliament may determine ! misfortune in that it was laid before the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER; I will come Convention and accepted on the faith of
to that. I am pointing out the weakness of those who recommended it; never dis-
the system which the hon. and learned mem- cussed, never explained thrown into a
ber proposed this morning so far as regards cold world, without anybody to be father
the grant of a fixed sum based upon present to it, and it has never had a show from
facts. We want elasticity, we want a pro-
that time to this. I am quite sure that
vision for the growth which we expect in all had the Premier of New South Wales,
our states in the early future, and the very
when he tabled the scheme, explained it,
serious defect of Mr. Deakin's proposal is as he can explain schemes—put the facts
that it does not provide for it. The hon. clearly before the public, as he can do-
and learned member said that this fixed the public would have understood it; and
sum would be a minimum, that the federal if they had understood it, very much of
parliament would give not only that but the antagonism to it that has sprung up
as much more as it could afford. You would have been avoided. Most of the
may make us this guarantee of £600,000 antagonism to it arises from absolute mis-
80
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
understanding and misconception. As to beginning my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid,
the principle of the sliding scale, it appears strongly took the position that ten years was
to me there can be no possible fault found the shortest possible period which would see
with it. As to its application, I shall deal an equilibrium established, and perhaps he
with that later on. The suggestion was was right. It was as a concession to other
to take the actual facts for one year after colonies—chiefly Victoria—that the reduc-
the coming into operation of the uniform tion was made from ten to five years.
tariff. Well, if we take the facts we can- An Hon. MEMBER : Why Victoria ?
not be very far wrong there.
That was
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Because
only for one year.
the representatives of Victoria held that
An Hon. MEMBER : The wrong year! the sooner the per capita principle came
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Possibly it into operation the better. They would like
may have been the wrong year; but that to have seen the per capita principle in
does not alter the correctness of the prin- operation at once. They deemned it would
ciple of the sliding scale. The first thing suit them-naturally.
was to find out the facts for the first year. An Hon. MEMBER: I do not think they
Let it be any other test year-only this looked at it from that point of view !
trouble comes in : If you make it the The Right Hon. G. H. REID: They
second, instead of the first year, you have
never have !
to keep the accounts between the colonies The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: No, never.
for two years, instead of one, and that It matters not where we put this per capita
makes it considerably worse. It was simply point—whether we put it at fire years or
for the sake of avoiding this book-keeping ten years——there must be between the first
that some people are so fond of, that it was year---the year of test—and this per capita.
proposed that the test should be the first point, wherever it comes, a gradual approxi-
year, and the first year only. Then came mation of all the divergent colonies to the
another question : If we are to take the mean point. It must be so.
If it comes
first year, or make a test year, are we to within five years, the sliding scale set out in
understand that the time will come when, this bill is right. If it takes ten years to
practically, all over the commonwealth, come, then all we have to do is to make the
the per capita contribution through cus- period ten years, let the lines approach a
toms and excise will be equal? I do not little more slowly, and still it is right.
think we are far wrong in assuming that The principle of the sliding scale cannot
such a time will come. There are special by any possibility be wrong.
But do as
circumstances in Western Australia to- we may, determine if we like that there
day; there are circumstances of a special shall be a certain fixed subsidy paid for so
character which must prevail in New South many years—five or ten, say—what then?
Wales for some time after the coming into Are we going to have an absolute collapse
operation of the uniform tariff. No one can then? It seems to me, above all other
question this. But, surely, in a period I things, what we want to avoid in connec-
am not going to say how long it will be tion with the finances of the federation is
Mr. WALKER : Twenty-five years ! convulsion. Let us pass from stage to
The Hon. F.W.HOLDER: Iam inclined stage easily-step by step, up or down,
to think the period will not be twenty-five whatever it may be; and let us have no
years. I am of opinion it will not take convulsions. Convulsions, however they
twenty-five years for things to settle down arise, in all financial matters, are a serious
and for equality to establish itself. At the damage to the state in which they occur.
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
81
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
Mr. McMILLAN: Under that scheme you the facts and figures before them--we have
still leave five years as the per capita basis not. They will know what the result of
-the parliament to decide !
the tariff is—we do not. They will know
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: But the
.
the special conditions that prevail at that
scheme in the bill contemplated that the time. Which of us can say what they
inequalities should adjust themselves in will be ? Reference has already been
five years, and therefore that the distribu- made to the extraordinary and unex-
tion should be on a per capita basis. pected developments in South Australia,
Mr. MCMILLAN: You leave the amount during the last three or four years. Who
absolutely open. You must trust the parlia- shall say where the next development will
ment then ?
be? It may be in New South Wales, it
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Yes; but may be in Tasmania—who is to say ?
the principle which is to guide them in their We know that the prospects of the min-
distribution is that, an equal amount per ing industry in Tasmania were, perhaps,
hread being assumed to be collected in each never so bright before as they are now,
colony, an equal amount per head would and, that being so, it may be that Tas-
have to be distributed to each colony. The mania will be the place which next will
principle of the sliding scale being the only boom, and where the next extraordinary
one to avoid these convulsions, the only growth and development will take place.
one which will bring the colonies which are There is another part of the commonwealth
above the average gradually and by a slow ---a part that is too often forgotten, though
course down to the average—the only one it ought not to be, for we have one here
which will bring the colonies that are far who is a special representative of it in the
below the average by slow degrees up to local Parliament-a part less known than
it-must be right, and must be wise. Tasmania, and with a smaller population.
The only points for discussion are as to I refer to the northern territory of South
the year of test, and as to the length Australia. It may be that these new de-
of the time during which the sliding velopments, these advances by leaps and
scale shall apply-whether it shall be bounds, will next be seen there, and, if
for five, seven, or ten years, or any other that be so, then it will be Northern Aus-
period. These are points open to discus- tralia, and not Western Australia, where
sion; but, as to the value and fairness of these special alterations will come about.
the sliding scale, it seems to me there can That being the case, as we cannot foresee
be no question. However, all these are these things, cannot measure them, cannot
matters of very considerable difficulty, and forecast what their nature or direction
in all of them we are dealing with ques-
will be, is it wise for us to attempt to
tions with which we are not face to face. leap this stile before we come to it? It
We are trying to leap over the stile before seems to me that there is a great deal
we come to it. While most of the words indeed to be said for leaving this matter
of Sir Samuel Griffith are words of wisdom, to the federal parliament to be dealt with.
I do not think those he used with reference There are one or two reservations I wish
to the finances of the commonwealth are to make. If, instead of our having taken
words of such wisdom as he is accustomed the financial problem first, we had taken
to exhibit. Are we or are we not justified the constitutional problem first-if, this
in trusting the federal parliament? There afternoon, we knew what would be the
are two or three reasons why we should constitution of the senate, what its re-
trust them. In the first place, they will have
lations to the house of representatives, I
82
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1997.]
should be prepared personally to make a a word or two on the important question
very clear utterance as to whether I would of the debts and economies which may be
or would not trust the coming federal par- practised by the federal authority. If it
liament; but as that question is not settled could be shown that the federal authority
I cannot say whether I will or will not could make any large savings, that it could
trust it. At least, however, I say this : by any means at all economise to the ex-
Given a constitution of both houses of the tent of the loss of revenue through inter-
federal parliament, which is fair to the colonial free-trade, and the cost of the
larger states and to the smaller ones, then new machinery of federation, the way
I am prepared to trust this matter, as I would, indeed, be easy. I want to refer
trust many other matters of very great to one fact bearing on this point. It has
importance, to the coming federal parlia- been said that the loss through intercolo-
ment, believing it can and will, with the nial free-trade would be over £1,000,000
knowledge and information which it will per annum. Without Queensland this loss
possess, do fairly by all the states within would be very much diminished. I hope
the commonwealth. If one thing more Queensland willcome in, but should Queens-
than another were necessary to induce land stay out, it will reduce by practically
me to trust the coming parliament, it one-half the loss on intercolonial free-trade,
is this : that we have with us in the and make so much smaller the difficulty.
position of absolutely requiring large and with which I am going to deal. We will
generous treatment at the hands of the
assume, for the moment, that Queensland
federal authority in the matter of finance, will come in, and that the amounts to be
the great colony of Victoria. I say it made up are, roundly, £1,000,000 loss of
without any reflection on Victoria ; I say revenue through intercolonial free-tradem
it as simply the utterance of an un- lost to the states, but gained to the people,
doubted fact, that Victoria can as little who will not have to pay the duty-and
afford, as can any of the smaller states about £300,000 for the new machinery, or
afford, to lose a very large portion of its a total of £1,300,000 a year.
If it were
revenue. Therefore the smaller states may possible to show to the electors, who will
feel secure, seeing that they have with have to vote on this question ultimately,
them in their difficulties, the great colony that the federal authority could make a
of Victoria. They are safe in taking the saving of that amount, our way would be
same side as it will have to take, and in easy. Can it be so shown? I am not in
being sure that the treatment which will favour of the railways being taken over by
be meted out to them, will be fair and the federal authority. Many of the railways
liberal. I end this part of my speech by have been constructed with a view, not to
stating what I stated at the beginning, direct but to indirect return—with a view
that I have rather sought to show reasons to the value they give the Crown lands
why the various schemes suggested would through which they pass; and the traffic is
not do than to set up any new scheme of my maintained on them, not because of the
own.
I have said what I have said with a profit arising from them, but because by
view to saving time. If I have shown that means of that traffic the profitable occupa-
any scheme over which much time might tion of large areas of country is made pos-
have been spent will not do, and that there sible. If the railways were to pass into
are radical difficulties which make it im- the hands of some federal authority, I can
possible to accept it-if I have thus saved conceive at once that lines such as these
debate I have saved time. I now come to would be little used. Naturally a federal
f
[The Hon. F. 17. Holder.
Commonwealth of
83
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
suit us.
authority, having no local interest in the not only of the five but of the greater
Crown lands, having no interest in the power is behind it, the paper is worth so
development of local industries, would
much more.
run the lines upon commercial principles. The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSII : At the same
Where the trains paid they would be rate of interest!
run as frequently as they paid, and where The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Interest is
they did not pay they would be run as one thing, security is another. I believe
infrequently as possible. That will not that if a federal loan were offered, better
I do not think it will suit any of terms could be got for it than for any state
the states that the lines should be run on loan. What does that mean? Undoubtedly,
those principles. I do rot admit, there- it means that the credit of the common-
fore, that any saving can be held out wealth will be better than the credit of any
before the eyes of our constituents result- individual stato in it.
ing from anything to be done with the An Hon. MEMBER: How would the state
railways; but I do believe that very large be injured ?
savings can accrue, as time goes on, from The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The state
the proper handling of our public debts. would certainly be injured. Surely the
But if we are to obtain these advantages,
hon. member sees my point.
we must move with very great judgment. The Hon. Sir P.O.FYSH: Surely the hon.
A declaration that, on the coming into member sees the point that the interest
being of the commonwelth, all these debts must come down !
shall be assumed by the commonwealth, Mr. MCMILLAN : The hon. member
would be an act of the utmost folly. Can means in case of conversion !
I illustrate that? I ain amazed that there The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Certainly.
is any necessity for illustration; and yet, The point is so clear that I thought the
when Iread some of the articles in the news- mere statement of it would convince every-
papers, when I hear some people talking, it body of the force of the argument. We
really does appear to me to be necessary that have in these colonies a certain public
some illustration should be given of the debt to day. Behind it there is only the
folly of the suggestion to which I have re- security of the individual colonies who in-
ferred. Let the illustration be this : Here curred the debt; but if, by some act of the
are five persons who have a fairly good Imperial Parliament, there were placed be-
commercial standing, whose paper is re- hind the whole of this debt--every million
garded as being good-perhaps not quite of it—not merely the state security, which
gilt-edged, but good enough; and to them is behind it to-day, but the commonwealth
comes another of the highest possible security, we should give an enormous ad-
standing, whose name is good enough, not vantage to the holders of the securities.
only for all the other five together, but for Mr. McMILLAN : But it would be only
far beyond that. This one with his huge if you wanted to convert. If the loans
security, comes to the others and at once expired it would not affect it at all.
takes over all their liabilities. Do not hon. The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I will take
members see that he has made a present an example again. Our South Australian
of an enormous advantage to the holders 3 per cents. to.day stand at about 101-a
of the securities of the five persons? The little more, I think. If the federal authority
paper was worth so much when the indi- came into being with such a provision in.
vidual security of the five persons alone the constitution as that which I have heard
was behind it, but now that the security argued for, at once the federal security
84
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
6 SEPT., 1897.1
1
would be behind the South Australian to the states would not accrue. I mention
loan, and that South Australian stock this because it has been the subject of great
would go up in the London market from discussion in the Parliament here. That is
101, to what—103, 104 ? And do you not what is urged. I do not hold that view,
see that the very moment that that takes but I want my hon. friend to deal with it.
place, a bonus of 3 or 4 per cent is given The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: My own
to the present bond and stock holders ? opinion is that the British bondholder looks
An Hon. MEMBER: How does it affect much more to the number of people behind
the loans you want to convert during the debt, and to the prosperity of the colony,
currency?
than to the purposes for which the money
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: We lose is to be spent.
enormously.
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is the
Mr. McMILLAN : Not unless you want answer I made !
to carry out a conversion scheme !
The Hou, F. W. HOLDER: And that so
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: But we do long as we do not borrow too largely it does
want to carry a conversion scheme through. not much matter whether railways or other
I am showing that the state stocks in the assets are behind the debt. The stock-
London market would go up 3 or 4 per cent. holders will look at the tax-paying capacity
directly the commonwealth security came of the people, and not at the assets. I hope
behind it, and that that bonus would be a that we shall take care to guard ourselves
present that we should give for nothing on by providing that the commonwealth may
earth to the bond and stock holders. To take over the loans of the states that we
give it to them for nothing would be the may place the federal security behind them
greatest* folly of which any sane man could -but will so leave the matter that, in
be guilty. I want to retain that bonus for
every case, we may give the federal secur-
the people, and I say that it must be retained ity if, and only if, those who hold our
for them, and that getting holdof that bonus bonds and stock will offer to make it worth
is about the best plan I can suggest for our while to give them a larger security
paying the expenses of the federation, and than we have now to offer. If we do that,
the best argument for recommending feder- we shall be able to go a long way towards
ation to the people. How are you going to paying all the expenses of this federation
get bold of it for the people ? Not by put without putting any increased burden on
ting in the bill to be passed by the Inperial the people, and without loss of revenue to
Parliament a provision which gives away the states. I hope, however, that we shall
the whole position for nothing-a provi- be very careful to provide that there shall
sion that from and after the passing of the be no rushing of this matter, for the nearer
act the commonwealth shall be responsible we come to the dates of expiry of these
for the states debts-nothing of the kind. I loansmto the dates when they will fall in
started by saying that articles in the news- by effluxion of time--the better the terms
papers suggested that we should give away we can make with those who hold our
this enormous advantage which we should bonds and stocks; and, therefore, while
certainly keep in our own hands—that we this is a matter which must be left en-
should give away this bonus for nothing. tirely to the federal government and to
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is said that if the federal treasurer, we should provide
you take over the debts without the assets in the financial clauses of the bill in such
they represent, the enhanced credit which a way as to let the people see that we are
the commonwealth would otherwise give ' keeping in our hands all the power we
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
85
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
can with the view of exploiting all these agreed to in the Convention at Adelaide.
debts in their favour and interest.
We have been taunted by some saying that
Mr. MCMILLAN : Is the hon. member Western Australia does not want feder-
in favour of the states being required to ation. We certainly cannot see our way to
give their consent to the taking over of enter the commonwealth parliament under
tbeir loans ?
the present financial clauses of the bill. I
The Hon. F.W.HOLDER: I agree with ihink that every member of the Conven-
the hon. member that there ought to be a tion is aware of that fact. We were not
provision requiring the consent of the par- present in the Adelaide session at the time
liament of each state to any transfer of its these financial clauses were discussed there
loans, for otherwise the federal authority, --they were brought forward after the
at a time when the state was able to make Western Australian delegates had left Ade-
very advantageous terms itself, might step laide to return to Western Australia—and,
in and take over its public debt, and might therefore, hon. members cannot say that
obtain for the commonwealth treasury an we are at all responsible for the financial
advantage which by right belonged to the provisions which were placed in the bill at
state treasury. For that and other reasons, Adelaide. I do not altogether agree with
I think the local authorities ought in every some hon. members, who say that the
case to give their consent to any portion statistics prepared by the statisticians of
of the debt for which they are responsible the different colonies are fallacious. Per-
being taken out of their hands. In some haps they are not in accordance with the
cases the premium might fairly belong to wishes or ideas of some hon. members, be-
the local authority, and in such cases they cause they place their colonies in a position
ought to have a right to retain it. There they do not like to see them placed in.
are many other points of great interest But considering that the statists of New
one might touch upon in connection with South Wales, Tasmania, and Western Aus-
the financial position of the commonwealth; tralia all agree pretty well as to the amount
but at this stage I am not going to take which Western Australia would lose, I
up any more of hon, members' time. I
cannot think that their statements are
have already taken up a good deal more
incorrect.
time than I intended to take up when I
An HON. MEMBER :
rose to speak, but I have been led on by
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE:
interjections and by the interest I take in That may be the case, but I do not think
the subject. I only hope that, if I have their statements are incorrect. In the first
taken a long time, I have solved some place we should stand very unfairly in rela-
difficulties which other hon. members may
tion to the other colonies if we gave up the
have felt, and which they themselves
amount of customs duties which we should
might have spent some time in discussing have to give up. Our customs duties in the
hereafter. I thank hon. members heartily last financial year amounted to £7 15s. per
for the kindly way in which they have head of the population, while I think the
listened to me.
average amount received by the rest of the
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE Australasian colonies was only about £3
(Western Australia) [3.58]: I think it is per
head. Thus it will be seen at once in
necessary that one of the representatives of what a disadvantageous position we should
Western Australia should rise now to state be placed by giving up this amount of
why it is we find some difficulty in accept-
customs duties. I know that it is said
ing the financial provisions of the bill as
that in Western Australia we are in an
86
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
abnormal position. Perhaps we are; but in make federation very pleasant for us, be-
my opinion this abnormal position will con- cause he shows that we shall have to pay
tinue for some considerable time yet. I £900,000, and that New South Wales will
do not acknowledge that these are boom have to pay about £500,000 a year more
times in Western Australia, if by a boom than the colonies, Victoria, South Australia,
time is meant a time which does not last and Tasmania. He concludes his report
long, and is followed by depression. I say with words which I have used myself. He
that the present condition of Western Aus- says that as regards Western Australia, it
tralia, which is owing to the increased pro- would be not only foolishness for us to
duction of gold there, will continue for a enter into federation upon tbe terms con-
long while.
tained in the bill, but it would be madness.
An HON. MEMBER : But the customs I quite agree with him. I think it would
revenue will fall off, because Western Aus- be madness for us to enter into federation
tralia will establish manufactories of her unless different financial arrangements were
own.
made.
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE: An Hon. MEMBER: There must be special
It will be many years before we do, and it conditions for Western Australia !
will be a bad day for the rest of Australia The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE:
when we establish manufactories there. Ido not know what those special conditions
An Hon. MEMBER: Western Australia may be; but unless they are more favour-
taxes manufactures pretty highly ! able than the provisions contained in the
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE : bill, I cannot see any prospect of our re-
I do not know that that is so. With the ex- commending that our colony should join
ception of the New South Wales tariff, the the federation. Our own statist has put
tariff of Western Australia is considerably the case very plainly, I think, and if hon.
lower than that of the other colonies. members will bear with me I will read what
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : But it is heaviest
upon Australian goods !
The conclusion I have come to is that in order
The Right Hon. Sir EDWARD BRADDON:
to be able to unite with the other colonies in a
federation on the basis of the draft constitu-
They have preferential rates in favour of
tion, without risk of serious detriment to its
foreign goods !
financial interests, it would be necessary that
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE: I the annual expenditure per head of this colony,
hope the time will soon come when we shall
particularly in public works (apart from that out
of borrowed money), should be considerably cur-
not want to import so largely from the
tailed, or that the colony should be prepared to
other colonies. I think hon, members will
impose a land, income, or other direct tax, so as
be rather surprised when I tell them that, to provide the funds requisite to meet the lia-
of the total importations of Western Aus-
bilities attendant upon federation. That the
colony should defer the matter until the colony
tralia, which are valued at £6,493,000,
has developed its resources to such an extent as
£3,000,086 worth is the product of Aus- to be practically independent of outside supplies
tralasia. The figures seem to me enor-
for the ordinary articles of consumption, that is,
mous ; but I suppose that they are per-
until the customs revenue per head assumes a
normal rate, appears to be a reasonable course,
fectly correct, because they are taken from
unless the draft constitution is so modified as
the report of the Collector of Customs, to equitably provide for the special condition of
who is a very careful man. I think this colony when federated.
the report presented by the Government What would be the use of our going back
Statistician of New South Wales is a very and telling the people that if we entered
interesting one. He certainly does not into federation we should have to impose
he says.
t
[The Hon. Sir James Lee-Steere.
Commonwealth of
87
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I am
direct taxation or to reduce our public member, Mr. Holder. I listened with
works expenditure? It is not likely that great interest to his admirable address.
they would be in favour of federation There was the true federal ring throughout
under those conditions. In order to de- it, and
it, and I wish I could believe that New
velop our colony, we are obliged, and for South Wales, moving on the lines indicated
some years we shall be obliged, to expend in his speech, is prepared to make whatever
large sums upon public works. Is it likely personal or state sacrifices are necessary
that the people of Western Australia will with the one object in view of becoming
agree to give up to the federal government part of a federated people. If we found
a large part of the money that is now spent New South Wales and Victoria moving
in that way, or that they will approve of upon such lines as those to which Mr.
the imposition of direct taxation ? I am Holder referred, I am sure that the finan-
certain that none of the representatives cial difficulty would be swept away, because
from the other colonies think that Western in entering into this contract we should
Australia would consider those favourable no longer be seeking to make a commercial
conditions under which to enter the federa- bargain; we should be treating each other
tion. I am pointing out to hon. members as part and parcel of a great state where
the difficulties under which we labour in the whole revenue mightat first go into one
regard to this matter. I do not consider pocket, and then be distributed ratably.
myself a financier, and, therefore, I am I find that already my observations are
not able to say what are the provisions causing my friends below me who repre-
which would be just and would bear equally sent New South Wales to smile.
upon all the colonies; but I have no doubt fully aware that a great difficulty of the
that the members of the select committee whole problem is that we shall be as
appointed to consider the question will be separate states subscribing to what will be
able to devise some plan. I am sure that the commonwealth fund sums of revenue
we are just as anxious to enter into federa- which are disproportionate, and here I
tion as the other colonies are, so long as should like to dwell upon a statement
we can be sure that we shall not be great which has been before us to-day—upon
losers thereby.
figures which we considered at an earlier
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) convention, figures which have moved my
[4.8]: I am very much afraid, after the mind over and over again, and from which
speeches which we have listened to to-day, I have never been able to sever the con-
that we are not coming nearer to the solu- nection—I allude to those figures which
tion of the financial problem. I have been Mr. Coghlan, the Government Statistician
waiting in the hope that the representative in New South Wales, published. Upon
of some colony like New South Wales or these I placed great reliance, because, in
Victoria, whose representatives must domi- common with all, we know Mr. Cogh-
nate the Convention in connection with a lan's capacity, we know his determination
subject of this nature, would give us some to arrive at a solid foundation of truth,
idea as to the arrangement that would be and for the three years to which he has
acceptable to themselves, because they referred I believe he has siated accurately
are hardly likely to accept any proposal the statistics of the colonies. If statistics
coming from the smaller colonies. There- be worth anything they should be con-
fore, with some deference, I have held sidered in a matter of this kind. I am
back. I am induced to rise now because fully aware that in taking the years 1893,
of some of the observations of the hon 1894, and 1895, Mr. Coghlan may have
88
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
taken a period which so far as Victoria is to the figures, although I may differ from
concerned, shows her at her worst. Those the hon. member's conclusions. He ap-
of us who have followed the progress of peared to overlook the fact that in dealing,
imports, associated with a lower tariff than with the important articles of duty he
is necessary in connection with a policy of gave to us—namely, sugar, tea, coffee,
protection, must arrive at the conclusion tobacco, spirits, and beer—he gave to us
that the higher the rate of duty the smaller 53 per cent. of the whole of our imports.
will be the volume of goods imported. I We may have in them a thorough indica-
have read two admirable papers by Mr.
tion as to the consuming power of the
Pulsford, a gentleman residentin New South people, and we find that in a given year-
Wales. I referredin Adelaide to one of these 1895—a year in which we began to return
papers which, with others, was exhibited to the prosperity we enjoyed in years gone
to those of us who were associated with the by-I pass over years 1891, 1892, 1893,
Finance Committee. Allusion was made
and 1894, in which many of us were in
to the fact that while New South Wales adversity, and I come to the year 1895-
imported a large value of ready-made when, at any rate, the sun was beginning
articles, Victoria only imported for the to shine upon us—we were realising a fair
same purposes of her people the raw ma- customs revenue. In that year we find a
terial, there being £1,000,000 per annum disparity between New South Wales with
imported in the three years, year by year, £l 18s. 7d. per head, and South Australia
by New South Wales and £750,000 im- with £1 12s. 4d. per head on these articles,
ported by Victoria. The larger sum in of 6s. 5d. per head, or one-fifth of the whole
the case of New South Wales was not a revenue in respect of these particular
disparity which to my mind, indicated any articles. There was that quantity less
serious error. Mr. Pulsford called atten. consumed in South Australia than was
tion to the fact that whereas in one article consumed in New South Wales. Now,
only in New South Wales, that of soda
what is the conclusion ? That the con-
crystals, she imported all she required, suming power of the people of South Aus-
Victoria imported none, the soda crystals tralia was less, by reason of the fact that
being all manufactured upon the spot. I they had not so many miners, or so
will carry the matter further, and say that many shearers or so many persons engaged
while in New South Wales, as I believe, in manufactures as were in the colony of
the great portion of the wearing apparel of
New South Wales. And we find that, so
the people, certainly of the masses, is im-
far as Tasmania is concerned, the disparity
ported ready-made, there is imported into between £1 1s. 2d. per head as compared
Victoria only the material. In connection with the £1 18s. 7d. per head in New
with the article of wearing apparel, textile
South Wales. These figures, therefore,
fabrics only, that would represent a much
cannot fairly be used with as an argument
larger value than any of us suppose. But to show that there is throughout Australia
passing away from this particular article, the same consuming power in every state.
I come to those articles which are most re- Neither do I think the figures can be used
venue-bearing, and to which my hon, friend, with any fairness to indicate that we shall
Mr. Henry, has referred. And while presently come
presently come—those of us who are poor.
he was perfectly correct in dealing with -into the wealth-giving conditions of those
these figures from one point of view, there who are richer. It may be true—I trust
is yet another concerning which I feel it it is—that Tasmania is very gradually,
my duty to express myself with respect and only gradually, perhaps at present
[The Ho. Sa P. 0. Fush.
Commonwealth of
89
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
more quickly-coming to the front. We on that subject deprecate any idea of keep-
are increasing our mining population, and ing inter-state accounts, and have alluded to
there can be little doubt that each year the immense difficulties that arise in con-
Tasmania will be seen to so increase her nection therewith. I have never seen any
£1 Is. 2d. per head as to approximate difficulty, and the financial problem has
more closely to the rates of her neighbours. been under my observation since 1891.
An Hon. MEMBER : Where are those An Hon. MEMBER: What about the cost?
figures taken from ?
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: The bill of
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : They are 1891, after the Financial Committee had
figures compiled by Mr. R. M. Johnston, sat, embodied the conclusion that there
who will be regarded in Australia as a statis- should be a state keeping of accounts for a
tician of equal ability to Mr. Coghlan. I am certain period. The Finance Committee of
quite satisfied that Mr. R. M. Johnston as April last, after sitting seven days, with
an actuary and statistician is acknowledged twenty members present, composed of Trea-
throughout the whole of Australia, and I surers and past Treasurers, had to arrive at
might say, throughout the whole statistical the conclusion that there was no equitable
world, as a man in whose figures much re- method of distribution except by the keep-
liance can be placed. The figures are taken ing of accounts. If there be any state which
for the whole of the colonies for the year desires to get away from this inter-state
1895. Therefore we must admit at the keeping of accounts, it is time that it should
commencement that there is a different announce itself, and let us know what
consuming power between the colonies at the problem is to be. The public, the press,
the present time. I quite agree, however, members here and elsewhere, and in our
that the positions at present, while they various parliaments, have all been exer-
fairly indicate the spending power, and also cising destructive criticism upon the work
the earning power of the people, may not of that Finance Committee. Although there
last. Western Australia has given us an has been plenty of this destructive criticism,
instance during the last few years of great
we have heard of no construction yet, except
change. In Tasmania a customs revenue by those men who have asserted the opinion
of less than £2 per head in 1894 will rise that the solution of the problem is in the
in the present year to £2 7s. 6d. per head of keeping of accounts. They have committed
the population. This does not reach the total themselves, and have shown what the re-
realised by New South Wales, and we want sults will be. For instance, the hon. mem-
to see whether in connection with the fede- ber, Mr. Holder, to-day instead of coming
ral movement, New South Wales is pre- to the point and telling us the solution,
pared to receive the other colonies on the what did he tell us ? He arrived at the
principle of equal partnership. If New same conclusion as almost every other
South Wales will remove that difficulty the speaker, that we must remit this matter to
financial problem can be readily overcome ; the federal parliament. I do not know
but if New South Wales wants to make a what there is behind. When I see so many
bargain with the neighbouring states, we with possible dissolutions staring them in
have come to the conclusion at which I the face avoiding this subject, and prepar-
'myself arrived long, long since that there ing to shunt the difficulty on to some body
is no other
way
in which we can equitably to be brought into existence by this bill, I
distribute the funds of the commonwealth often ask myself the question why it is they
except under an inter-state keeping of ac- cannot face the difficulty now? If they would
counts. Now, almost all who have spoken only face the difficulty for five years and let
G
90
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
us agree that the keeping of accounts shall with the whole than to begin to talk about
be for five years only, and that upon the parts. We talk about £40 per capita as
basis so established you will have given to being the proportion that may be taken
the federal executive an opportunity of over, leaving it for Tasmania to give bonds
gauging the future possibilities, we may to be responsible for £7 per head of her
accomplish something. But surely this debt, while Queensland would be respon-
Convention will not meet again now and sible for £16, and the other colonies the
dissolve without having inserted in the same in proportion. Why not at once
bill some proposal with respect to federal throw the responsibility of the whole of
finance. To leave the whole matter open the interest upon the federal executive,
to the future is to say that you do not and let the federal executive charge against
know how to deal with the difficulty, and each state the total amount of interest
that so far as finance is concerned we must which it expends on its behalf? It comes
trust to the future. £50,000 a year is as to the same thing, but it will deal with
much to Tasmania as £300,000 a year one debt. You will then have a debt of
is to New South Wales. I very much Australasia, instead of having a separate
doubt whether any colony, be the amount debt for the commonwealth, and separate
£50,000 or £300,000, will be justified in debts for the states. This leads me to an
going into the federation when it does not observation by the hon. member, Mr.
know whether its position would be that Holder, which I should like to challenge.
of a bankrupt state or not. The hon. He was very clear in his intention of depre-
member, Mr. Holder, reminded us of that cating before this Convention the purpose
at the last meeting, and pointed out how of announcing to the world that the debts of
important it was to the whole of us that we the several states of Australasia were to be
should, at any rate up to a certain period, taken over, and form a responsibility of
know what the revenues of our own coun- the commonwealth. Now, our present bill
try are to be. Treasurers now have to uses the term “may.” That term was used
anticipate revenues for a year or eighteen advisedly on the assumption that the trea-
months ahead, but how can a treasurer give surer of the future, having such a power
any estimate of the revenue of the year without being called upon to secure the co-
that is to follow unless there is secured operation of any separate state might, when
to him some definite proportion of the the opportunity occurred, and it will occur,
customs revenue to be handed over? It is, consolidate and unify the whole of the
therefore, of importance that there should debts of Australasia. But I would add
be some provision made in the bill to re- that I have no objection to the word
turn to the states something like a propor-
shall." I do not see the serious difficulty
tion of that which they contribute, or in- which the hon. member recognises --a
stead that there should be one of the difficulty which I remember an hon. mem-
responsibilities of the various states taken ber on the other side, Sir William Zeal,
over by the commonwealth, and thus re- alluded to on a former occasion, when I was
lieve them. I would suggest that, while speaking-a difficulty which is evidently
we do not wish the federal executive to in the minds of many here to-day, namely,
be in possession of any large surplus, we that you are raising the value of your
may obviate such a possibility by casting securities against yourselves. Now, that
on the federal executive the responsibility is just what I rise to controvert. Willany-
of paying the whole of the interest upon body tell me that a bill of Rothschild for
our debts. It is much more simple to deal £100, bearing 3 per cent, interest, will be
[The Ho. Sa P, Q. Fsh.
Commonwealth of
91
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
worth more than £100 a week hence if I to £2, so much the better for Australia, be-
get Peabody & Co., of New York, to put cause a low rate of interest is what we
upon the back of it their names? There- require. Therefore to assume that because
fore will anybody tell me that the bonds we are going to back the bills of the states
of Australasia worth £110, and bearing 37 they are going to rise in some very impor-
per
cent. interest, will be worth any more tant degree is a great mistake. They may
when you obtain the joint and several rise to a small extent for one reason only :
guarantees of all the separate states I they may get into the preferent list for the
would ask those who believe so, what is it investment of trust funds, and seeing the
gives value to the bond ?
enormous amount of trust funds which
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Why are the cannot find investment in Imperial consols
bonds of the different colonies at different --which are reduced to £400,000,000 now
prices to-day!
-directly you can get Australasian deben-
The Hon. Sir P.O. FYSH: The bonds of tures or stocks put into the preferent list,
the different colonies are not at such dif- so soon may we expect the prices to rise ;
ferent prices as to warrant such a conclu- and they will rise, whether the stock be-
sion. The bonds of the whole of the colo- longs to separate states or represents the
nies in 1892 fell down to less than 80. consolidated debt of Australasia. The price
They all rose until, in May of last year, of money at home it is which varies the
they were as nearly as possible on a par value of your stocks.
with each other, or within 1 per cent. of. The Hon. F. W.HOLDER: Whyare British
each other. They have risen or fallen in consols a better price than our stock?
proportion to the value of money in the The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : I might
English money-market. My observation almost answer the question with another ;
with respect to the hon. member, Mr. how comes it that whereas we were paying
Holder, is that it is not the guarantee 6 per cent.forourstocks in years gone by we
which you put upon the back of that bond have now got them down to a rate which is
which gives it value, but, seeing that the equal to about £2 10s., because I think if
value and the security is already good- we work out £110 for our 37 per cents., we
seeing that a 31 per cent. Australian bond will find that it reduces them to about £3.
isworth £110 now if you put the names of
The Hon. C. H. GRANT: One is a home
all the other Australian colonies behind it, stock and the other is a foreign stock !
it will be worth no more, because it is wholly The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: There are all
upon the rate of interest that it depends. sorts of differences. We bave year by year
The Hon. S. FRASER : And the security! been consolidating ourselves; we have be-
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I started off come a people on whom the world is placing
with that fact, that if it be a Rothscbild more and more reliance.
bond, you cannotimprove upon the security. year we live, as we develop our population,
If the rate is £3 per cent.—it will only pro- as we show a stern determination to main-
duce £3 per annum, and an inscribed Aus- tain our credit, as we show an ability to
tralian bond will produce £3 per cent. if it pay our way, and particularly as we de-
is a 3 per cent. stock. If it runs up to £150 velop our mines from time to time, so we
, then your rate of interest is reduced to £2. shall have the value of our stocks increased,
The Hon. S. FRASER : English consols and gradually we are drawing them nearer
are much lower than that!
and nearer to the value of European stocks.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: If then the Australian stocks, last May, were of more
rate of interest on its face value be reduced value, judging by the rate of interest which
I believe every
92
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[6 SEPT., 1897.)
must go up.
they were realising, than American stocks, although they may be small, would have
and of more value than any of the stocks moved in the direction of consolidation
of Europe, except English stocks.
before this, and directly you do so move I
Mr. HIGGINS : That is because there is believe you will get your money at 24 per
no enterprise !
cent., and then you will save not a few hun-
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: No, it arises dred thousands, but £2,000,000 per annum
from a combination of two circumstances. by way of economy. If you only allow
The withdrawal of Imperial consols by £1,000,000 by way of saving through the
reason of investments to the extent of consolidation of your debts you certainly will
£200,000,000 by Government officers in then have secured a sufficient sum of money
England leaves only about £400,000,000 in the commonwealth to have rectified any
of Imperial consols to work upon for the differences which may occur in connection
public generally. It arises also from the with the various states we represent. But
fact that money was very low in England- we are, at the present moment, in difficul-
less than 1 per cent.—while we were paying ties as to our next movement, and we, as
31 per cent. face-value, or equivalent to the smaller colonies, ask those whose in-
about 3 per cent. on the market value. fluence must guide this Convention to
While money kept so low as that, our stocks consider that even though they may to-
They will not be lower for day be collecting revenue per head per
another reason : that we are year by year annum in excess of that which is collected
becoming more and more a consolidated by the smaller states, we are all moving
people, and every year of our lives now, after on in the same prosperity. No one knows
the fifty years of our free institutions we which colony in five years will be to the
have enjoyed, is bringing us more and more front. It is very certain, therefore, that
credit before the English investing public. directly you have a uniform tariff, you
So soon as you consolidate stocks and unify will immediately begin to level down these
them as to value with one rate of interest, disparities, that the value of the imports
and possibly make them an interminable into Victoria will very largely increase,
security, with power to the commonwealth and we shall have no longer the disparity
to renew or pay them within thirty, forty, or existing between the figures which Mr.
fifty years, so soon shall we begin to realise Coghlan has given us, and the figures
the advantages to which our friend, Mr. which we will realise under the uniform
Walker, has drawn attention. I was very tariff; for directly we have that uniform
pleased to discover that my right hon. tariff-I have no doubt that it must be a
friend, Sir George Turner, on his return revenue-giving tariff—the return of goods
from England lately, was able to tell the imported into the colony will be increased
press that the time is fast approaching and enhanced in value very considerably.
when the conversion of Australian stocks I have been watching the result of manu-
must be carried out. I was pleased to factures in our small way in Tasmania. I
know that it confirmed the letter which have discovered that the small mills which
Mr. David George had sent to our friend, we have put up have completely thrown
Mr. Walker, and it also confirmed other out of gear the imports on which the Trea-
letters of equally important financial autho- surers have been in the habit of depend-
rities which I am pleased to receive from ing; so much so, that I may mention two
time to time. The time is rapidly approach- articles.
articles. Blankets and flannels ten years
ing, and but for our hope of an early ago were largely imported-most of those
federated Australia some of the colonies, which were used in the colony were im-
1
[The Ho. Sa P. 0. Fush.
Commonwealth of
93
[6 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
ported; but now blankets have wholly population, there will be a credit in account
fallen out of our import list, and flan- for the amount due, and having taken over
nels nearly so, and I may say so partly with the whole of the responsibilities by way of
respect to boots and shoes. The value debt, let there be charged to it the whole
of these imports has fallen 40 per cent., of the interest that is paid for that par-
and we know that, the value has fallen in ticular state. The result, according to such
this particular instance, not by reason of figures as have been put before me will be
the reduction of their intrinsic worth in that when uniform duties are imposed we
Europe, but by reason of our local manu- shall come out with this advantage : That
factures. The intrinsic value of goods, of the smaller state that does not consume
course, has considerably fallen off, but that so much whiskey and tobacco would get
affected equally Victoria and New South the advantage of New South Wales, which
Wales. And when we have a uniform consumes the most. Queensland consumes
tariff established through the whole of a great deal more whiskey than we do in
Australasia we shall each be taking ad- Tasmania. I think the proportion is as
vantage of the ground from which we are 6 gills to t. Queensland, when they begin
now kept. We will have free-trade run- to entertain the question of federation, will
ning throughout the whole, and no one can be induced to federate by reason of inter-
predict the immense advantages which we colonial free-trade. Directly we give
shall all realise. I sincerely hope that one Queensland a free market or a prefer-
of these larger colonies will give to us some ential market for her sugar, so surely shall
indication of the purpose they have in we establish in that land a permanent
view, because simply to discuss these product of that which will be so enor-
measures, and to point out what the diffi. mously beneficial to her as to realise almost
culties are, is not leading us to their solu- £1,000,000 per annum of export. But
tion. We all of us know the difficulties. we need not lose the whole of the million
Will any one put before us some sụbstan- to which the hon. member, Mr. Holder,
tial scheme which we can lay hold of ? I referred when we have intercolonial free-
venture to say that the best scheme, and trade. Surely Queensland will not expect
that which is likely to be most useful to us to give up entirely our excise duty upon
us, would be to take the whole of the ex- sugar? I have always taken care to guard
penditure and the revenue of any period my opinion. I express it so that Queens-
you may name—I would say so soon land may not overlook the fact that we
as uniform duties of customs are imposed are not likely to give up for the present
-and to make a return per capita to the the duty of excise upon so important an
people.
article as sugar.
An Hon. MEMBER :
An Hon. MEMBER : Will Queensland
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I am aware come in on those terms?
that Western Australia cannot come in The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : If she gets
at present. As suggested by the hon. a preferential rate of £3 excise as against
and learned member, Mr. Deakin, special £5 duty she will sweep the markets, and
arrangements would have to be made with give to us in the next five years, according
Western Australia for the present; but as to Sir Hugh Nelson's figures, 170,000
faras the other colonies are concerned, even tons of sugar all grown in Queensland.
including Queensland, it must be immensely She would have an entire monoply of all
beneficial. By dividing the total revenue
the markets of Australasia for sugar.
from customs and excise per head of the That would be an immense benefit to her.
which
H
94 Commonwealth Bill. [6 SEPT., 1897.] Adjournment.
1
An Hon. MEMBER : That depends upon appreciation of the value of the criticism,
beet sugar !
written and verbal, that has taken place
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Beet has since the last meeting of the Convention.
been reducing the price of sugar very
Progress reported.
considerably; but, notwithstanding that,
ADJOURNMENT.
Queensland now and for a few years past The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
has always been able to meet the constantly Wales) [4:47] rose to move :
reduced price of sugar, whether it came
That this House do now adjourn.
from the Mauritius or elsewhere. We do
He said : A suggestion was made by Sir
not get beet sugar in the colonies.
George Turner yesterday in reference to
An HON. MEMBER: We do !
the extra parliamentary programme that
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: A small
has been designed for the delegates. I
think that is a matter which deserves con-
quantity of beet sugar known as Dutch
sideration. I have had some conversation
crushed, loaf sugar. Thesugar consumed in
with the Premier of New South Wales
the colonies is Mauritius sugar made from
on the subject, and, without undertaking
cane. We are not likely to import beet
to express any opinion whatever, I should
sugar. Queensland will consider it her in-
like to say that I think there is a general
terest to join the federation if fair terms are
desire on the part of hon. members that
made in connection with the proposal before
there should be no extension that can be
us. I hesitated to rise because I felt that it avoided of festivities, atany rate beyond the
is beating the air. We are waiting for the
present week, in order that after the present
Right Hon. Sir George Reid and the Right week the Convention may be enabled to
Hon. Sir George Turner. These are the
sit at night as well as by day. I do not
gentlemen who must tell us what the fiscal forget that next week there are two occa-
policy is to be. We are entirely dependent sions on which hon. members will no doubt
upon them, and unfortunately we are de- desire not to sit. I need not mention
pendent upon the exigencies of political life. those, but with those exceptions I take it
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [4:45]: that after this week it will be the general
I do not rise to speak on this question. clesire of hon. members to sit every night.
We have heard some very good speeches
The Hon. A. DEAKIN(Victoria)[4:49]:
and some long ones. "I think it would be I rise with great diffidence to say that
very reasonable now to adjourn. I would there was a very strong feeling in Adelaide
ask the leader of the Convention, the hon. against night sittings, and they should be
and learned member, Mr. Barton, whether
avoided. This is not the time to discuss
he will consent to an adjournment until
it, but there are some of us who will only
consent to them as a last resort.
to-morrow morning?
The Hon. E. BARTON: We sit at night
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
elsewhere!
Wales) [4:46]: Under the circumstances, I
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: No. I heartily
think it is right that progress should be re-
concur with what my hon, and learned
ported now, having in view the very great friend has said, and for my part am quite
gravity of the subject, and also the very willing to forego all festivities. But night
great assistance which I think will arise to
sittings are not calculated to produce that
the Convention, and to the members of the class of work that I should like to see in
Finance Committee from some of the this Constitution.
speeches which have been made, which, if The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not know !
I may say so, denote a distinct advance in
Question resolved in the affirmative.
federal tendency, and also a very keen
Convention adjourned at 4:51 p.m.
[The Hon. Sir P. O. F'ysh.
Commonwealth of
95
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of Australia Bill-Leave of Absence,
a.m,
TUESDAY, “ SEPTEMBER, 1897. different colonies, that nothing more can
be said, and the matter must be dropped
from that standpoint. I should not refer
to this matter, but the writer in question,
Mr. Nash, of the Daily Telegraph, is one
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
of the ablest financial writers we have in
this colony, and I notice that he says that:
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL. If New South Wales required even one-half of
In Committee (consideration resumed from that extra million to be made good to her, the
customs and excise taxation would still exceed
6th September, vide page 94):
£7,500,000. We regard the deadlock disclosed
Clause SS. Uniform duties of customs shall be
by these figures as complete and irremovable.
imposed within two years after the establish-
ment of the commonwealth.
If we have come to that stage of the ques-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
tion, I should like to know what is the
sembly of South Australia :
next course to pursue ? I do not, however,
In line 1, after "customs,” to insert " and agree with that writer, able as he is. I
excise.'
certainly think that the first proposal which
Question—That the words and excise"
emanated from the Finance Committee in
be inserted—proposed.
South Australia was the best which has
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [10:34]: been made up to the present time. True,
At the present time, it seems to me that the Convention did not approve of what
no lengthy speeches need be made upon was done, and referred the matter to an-
the question before the Convention. As other committee of Treasurers. I heard
I stated when the committee was appointed,
Mr. Holder-the South Australian Trea-
I disagreed entirely with the action then surer-in the able speech he delivered yes-
taken, namely—to appoint the committee terday, say that if the sliding scale, which
and debate the financial question in the was brought up by the Treasurers, had
Convention, subsequently allowing the been taken hold of by the present Premier
question to go to the committee, and then of New South Wales, and had been spoken
having another debate after it makes its re- to in the manner in which that right hon.
port. It certainly seems to me that by doing gentleman can speak in regard to figures,
that we shall have two debates when one an entirely different complexion would
would bave answered all purposes.
For have been placed upon it from the com-
that reason, I do not intend to take up any plexion which has been placed upon it by
length of time on this matter; but I cannot those who have had to learn it for them-
allow the occasion to pass without referring selves, and by the press. I certainly think
to some of the very able speeches made the sliding scale, as submitted by the Trea-
yesterday. I think the tone and the mat- surers, would never suit New South Wales..
ter of the speeches delivered yesterday was We should lose under that proposal, gloss
of the highest character; and although I it as we will, and we should contribute to
do not agree in many respects with the the other colonies something like £800,000
sentiments uttered by some of those who or £900,000 a year. Surely New South
made them, still I must of necessity ad- Wales is not quite so blind to her own
mit that they were very able. I notice interests as to submit a proposal of that
that an able writer in the press this morn- kind.
ing states, after giving the figures in refer- The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : The hon.
ence to customs and excise as between the member forgets how much New South
96
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Wales would gain by the distribution of her difficulty in inserting two or three words
expenditure. She would gain half as much to make my intention clear. If that were
as she would lose by that course only! done, the effect would be this : Supposing
Mr. LYNE: I must differ from the hon. that there is a total collection of £6,000,000
member, because in that respect I think per annum from all the colonies, and sup-
we should lose also. The hon. member posing that the population is 4,000,000,
may think otherwise, but I must be allowed it would leave the sum of 30s. per head,
to differ from his ideas. I think that under applicable to each unit of the popula-
that proposal New South Wales would in tion. That would be the minimum that
every way lose considerably. Therefore, should be returned of the excess obtained
as far as that proposal is concerned, I ad- by the federal treasurer from the various
mit, with the writer of this article, that it states.
must be placed absolutely and for all time Mr. McMILLAN : But that per capita
on one side. With regard to the proposal distribution would exactly bring about
made by the Finance Committee, after a the same thing!
very great deal of discussion, and after the Mr. LYNE: I do not think it would.
insertion of the word to which Mr. McMillan I may say that, as far as I am personally
referred yesterday—the word "aggregate” concerned, I altogether object to the sys-
as far as the estimate and the distribution tem of book-keeping which was proposed,
of the customs and excise were concerned and which was strongly supported by the
I understood that that word had a great hon. member, Sir Philip Fysh, and by
deal fuller meaning than it seemed to me other hon. gentlemen. I regard the posi-
Mr. McMillan gave to it yesterday. I tion we are in in this way: If we are to
should like to state what I conceive to be have federation, let us have it—let us have
the meaning of that word ; and I think it intercolonial free-trade-but, if you keep
was I who had the privilege of moving up a system of book-keeping on your
its insertion. Before that word was in- borders for five years or,-as was sug-
serted, the proposal was open to much the gested by the Premier of New South Wales
same objection as was the sliding scale of in the Finance Committee—for ten years,
the Treasurers. But the word 66
aggre- you might very nearly as well keep up
gate" was intended for this purpose : that your customs duties, for all the trouble
we should take the aggregate returns from and irritation that would take place. We
all the colonies and pool them, and divide must, if it is possible to do so, arrive at
the total sum by the population,
some-it may not be accurate distribution,
Mr. WALKER: Including direct taxation! but at some reasonable distribution, of the
Mr. LYNE: No; but the customs and surplus that is likely to be obtained from
excise. Divide that by the total popula- the various colonies by the treasurer of
tion, and on that get an aggregate amount the commonwealth, and I take it that the
of customs and excise for each individual first idea—which, I think, emanated from
throughout the whole commonwealth. the hon. member, Mr. McMillan—that
Mr. McMILLAN : I said nothing about you must, by some rough and ready method,
that!
fix some hard and fast sum—it may not be
Mr. LYNE: I said it at the time, and exactly accurate-to be returned to each
I understood from the chairman of the state—had a great deal in it to commend
Finance Committee when the word “ 'ag- itself to hon. members of the Convention;
gregate" was inserted, that that was to but I think the idea of the Finance Commit-
be the effect of it, because we had some
tee in South Australia was the better one
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
97
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
that is, as I have said, to fix a certain sum all New South Wales, must see to it that
per head of the population to be returned. there is some return from the federal
I heard hon. gentlemen yesterday state- treasury to the various state treasuries.
in opposition very largely to what I heard An HON. MEMBER : If we trust them
them state on a previous occasion—that for £1 we can trust them for £2 !
they were almost prepared to leave every- Mr. LYNE: I think that the state
thing in connection with finance to the treasurers would be in a much safer posi-
federal parliament. If hon members are tion if they knew that they were to receive
prepared to leave everything to the federal a certain sum back from the federal govern-
parliament, surely they might leave every- ment. I cannot close my eyes to the fact that
thing beyond a niinimum of, say, 30s., or the whole, or nearly the whole of the trouble
whatever it comes to, per head of the popu- on this question is caused by the present
lation, to be distributed as nearly approxi- fiscal policy of New South Wales. I do
mately as they can possibly find out to the not wish to drag into this debate any fiscal
amount raised in each colony. It will issue; but I say that, with our fiscal policy
have to be raised through the various cus- of the years 1893, 1894, and 1895—even
toms entries, not intercolonial, but on the with a 10 or 15 per cent. tariff, we could
seaboard. I think that if something of that come much nearer to this question in a
kind could be arrived at, and if we were much shorter time than we can on the
to allow some power, some privilege, and. present occasion. If hon. gentlemen will
some determination to the federal parlia look at the figures that hare been sub-
ment as regards the balance of the surplus mitted by our Statistician, and by his as-
to be returned, we might come to some sistant since he has been away, they will
conclusion ; but I do not think that it see that the whole trouble is based on the
would be wise to leave absolutely the whole absence of any reliable or approximate
arrangement of this scheme to the federal information in regard to importations into
parliament after the matter has gone away New South Wales, to be brought here
from this Convention. Are we to declare that under a uniform tariff of customs duties.
we ourselves are impotent to come to any I, therefore, think that our trouble at the
conclusion on this question? I take it that present moment is attributable to a large
in the federal parliament there will not be extent--almost wholly—to the fact that
abler men than are to be found here-abler we have not such a fiscal policy, to some
financiers, and gentlemen competent to extent, as they have in the other colonies.
deal with matters of this kind.
How are we going to get over that diſti-
Mr. SOLOMON : They will have a very culty ? We proposed at the Adelaide Con-
much freer hand!
vention to go back to the years 1893, 1894,
Mr. LYNE: They would have a very
and 1895. We took those years to get
much freer hand, I grant; they would over the difficulty to which I am referring.
have a much freer hand to do injustice as In those years we had a low tariff in the
well as justice.
shape of 10 or 15 per cent., but under that
An Hon. MEMBER: And a knowledge tariff we had a certain customs revenue,
of the circumstances of the hour, which we which brought us a little nearer to the
have not!
position the other colonies are in at the
Mr. LYNE: They would have that also, present tiine, and therefore at Adelaide
if you gave them the power of distributing we at once took those particular years to
beyond a certain minimum; but I take it try and assimilate the returns that had to
that every colony, and probably most of be made and the amounts that would be
98.
Australia. Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
collected from the various states. I alto- to be imagined that the tariff under the
gether cast on one side the idea-so assidu- federal union would be a prohibitive one
ously put forward by our Statistician, and --our imports would decrease, and pro-
I think also by the Premier of New South bably, with our present population, we
Wales—that if you take as the basis all the shouldobtain somewhere about £2,500,000
importations into this colony under our a year through the customs. On these
free-trade tariff, and put on the top of figures we must base our calculations if
that basis the tariff of Victoria, or of any we are going to come nearer to federation
of the other colonies, you will get a certain at the present time. I say that there is
result. That, it must be patent to every no insurmountable difficulty to be got over
hon. gentleman, is an absurdity. As the in meeting the other colonies. Tor these
hon. member, Mr. Deakin, very rightly reasons, I think that the statement made
said yesterday, as in Victoria, with the in- in the paper to which I have referred, is
crease of duties and with the decrease of absolutely erroneous.
absolutely erroneous. I go further than
duties, the rise and the fall of the importia- that, and I say that I do not think this
tions was marked, so it would be in New colony will allow this important question,
South Wales. With an increase of duties which so vitally affects the financial in-
under a uniform tariff, we would have a de- terests of the community, to be left en-
crease of importations, and probably an in- tirely to the federal parliament. I am
crease of the local manufactures in our satisfied that this colony, if it accepts any
colony, which was also referred to by the constitution bill at all, will require the
hon. member, Mr. Deakin, yesterday, when laying down of some definite lines, at any
he pointed out that the consumption of the rate so far as the minimum return to be
people was perhaps not less in Victoria obtained. I was pleased to hear the state-
than in New South Wales, but that the ment made by my hon. friend, Mr.
result of a protective tariff decreased the McMillan, on this question yesterday. We
importations, and increased the local manu- all know that he is a freetrader, just as
factures, which fact was not taken into everyone in this colony knows that I am a
account at all. Under those circumstances, protectionist. But Mr. McMillan recognises
with an alteration in our tariff
, we would that there will be, and can be, no union
necessarily have such a result, and, in- without a uniforın customs tariff-I be-
stead of getting over £3,000,000 return in lieve a very strongly protectionist tariff.
this colony, as suggested by some of the He stated yesterday that that tariff must
figures that I have seen-£1,000,000, or be fair, and that this colony, together with
£1,500,000, or £1,250,000 more than the other colonies, must accept it. So far
any other colony—that would probably as that goes, I think that the people of
be brought down to the sun which we in this colony would be quite prepared to
New South Wales received in 1893, when, take such a tariff, whatever it might be,
I think, we obtained about £2,500,000 and to leave it to the federal parliament
or £2,600,000 through the customs. That to deal with finally. Some of the extreme
was before the effect of the 10 per cent. free-traders do not, and would not, agree
duty was felt in this colony. Our importa- to anything of the kind; but that such a
tions during 1894 and 1895 decreased to thing must come there can be no doubt.
about £2,100,000, mainly because of the If anything so absurd should take place
manufacturing which was induced in our that it did not come, what would be the
own colony. With the application of a result? The result must be that, without
reasonable tariff—and I do not wish it your customs tariff, the whole of your
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
9.9
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
revenue, or nearly the whole of it, must be outside its powers under the Common-
raised by direct taxation. The states wealth Bill. The federal parliament takes
would have the power to raise revenue in over certain departments, and must ex-
that way, and the commonwealth finances pend money upon them. It might build
would at any rate have to be supplemented a post-office at Dabbo or at Goulburn.
by direct taxation. But I ask any hon.
Mr. LYNE: Yes ; but the hon, mem-
gentleman if in his sane senses he believes ber cannot think that all the surplus reve-
that the people of these communities would nue of the commonwealth would be ab
agree to wipe away all customs duties ex- sorbed in the building of post offices.
cept such as are in force in New South The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Of course not!
Wales at the present time, and to apply Mr. LYNE : That only brings me down
direct taxation in two or three different to the bed-rock of the argument which I
forms? One reason why I feel that we was using, that the surplus should be re-
should come to some decision upon the turned to the states, and that the distri-
minimum to be returned is that if the states bution of the money coming originally
do not get a return from the federal trea- from customs duties should be made by the
surer, each state will be crippled to a Treasurers of the various states. What I
very large extent in carrying out its local say is that a minimum of something like
work. I may be permitted to say to the 30s.
per
head should be fixed. I do not
hon. member, Mr. Deakin, that one part fear the trouble which is anticipated as to
of his speech was not quite so strong as what will take place in the immediate
the rest of it, and that was where he said, future.
“Let the federal parliament deal directly The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It is the Cana-
with the expenditure of the surplus." He dian practice to return so much a head !
instanced Dubbo and Goulburn as two Mr. LYNE: Yes; but even with the
places where the federal parliament might Canadian practice, as was stated by the
expend money directly without allowing hon. member yesterday, there is trouble, ;
it to filter through the hands of the state: because the Treasurers want more than
I interjected at the time that that was ap- the minimum. How much more would
proaching unification, and I think it would that trouble arise if the commonwealth
be, because if you are going to destroy treasurer was not called upon to return
your states by taking away the money anything at all? I can only offer the sug-
they should receive, and put them in such gestion that a minimum of something like
a position that they cannot raise revenue,
30s. a head should be fixed. That would
except by direct taxation of a very heavy not take a high tariff to raise.
character, you must bring them so low that The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Sup-
you might as well have unification, every- pose a minimum is fixed according to the
thing being managed directly by the com- customs receipts instead of at so much a
monwealth government and the system of head?
shires and boroughs being extended all Mr. LYNE: I have not analysed that
over the continent. I think that the pro-
I think that the pro- idea ; but the moment you perfect your
position of the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, commonwealth arrangements you lose all
to expend money upon ordinary work in your intercolonial trade. We
We may obtain
the shape of roads and bridges
a great deal from Victoria during the first
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I did not mean few years after the establishment of the
that. I did not suppose that the federal
commonwealth.
At the present time;
parliament would spend money upon objects nearly the whole of the machinery which
100
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
con-
is used in our southern and south-western reason for that, that he knew that the Vic-
districts comes from Victoria. I was at torian finances were much in the same
Wagga Wagga the other day, and one of straits as were those of the smaller colonies,
the leading agents there told me that, with and that, therefore, those colonies could de-
the exception of one plough which had pend upon Victoria's assistance in seeing
been obtained from Hudson Brothers, justice done. Now, I took particular notice
nearly the whole of the machinery ob- of the statement made by the hon. mem-
tained this season in the south-western dis- ber, which means that it does not matter
trict had been manufactured in Victoria. about New South Wales, so long as the
The south-western portion of this colony other southern colonies get. Victoria to
is deluged with Victorian manufactures, help them in the matter of equal state
not only with Victorian machinery, but rights. A number of hon. gentlemen
with other manufactures as well. I can- stated at a previous meeting of this con-
not see how you could arrange matters if vention that there was nothing in equal
you simply kept a record of the imports state rights; but surely tbere is something
from outside. Otherwise the idea of the in it when we find such a statement as
right hon, member might very reasonably
that to which I have referred emanating
be carried out. I think that it will be from such a high authority as is the hon.
patent to him that there would be trouble member. I regret that the clauses deal-
in that respect. The trouble would be in
The trouble would be in ing with equal state rights were not con-
the same direction as has been anticipated sidered before these clauses were
for the system returning so much per head. sidered, because New South Wales would
The probability is that New South Wales then have known what she was to expect
would import a great deal more during the if that question were to be dealt with as
first five or ten years than any of the other it is dealt with by the bill at the present
colonies, and that we should not get a full time. I cannot indorse the idea that it
return from that. I do not wish to reason would be a wise thing to leave this matter
in this particular direction; but I hope entirely to be dealt with by the federal
that the Finance Committee will take the government. I am of an entirely different
matter into consideration, and that they opinion. This colony has more to lose
will not leave the provisions in the bill in than have all the other Australian colonies
the state in which they are at the present put together upon this and upon every
moment. There is one matter to which I other question. I have always been in
desire to refer, and that is a statement favour of dealing with the question of state
which fell from the lips of the hon. mem- representation upon a population basis;
ber, Mr. Holder, yesterday. He stated and before there is any commonwealth it
yesterday that he would be prepared to will have to be dealt with on that basis.
leave this whole question to the federal
The CHAIRMAN : I think the hop. mem-
parliament if he knew how the common- ber is wandering away from the financial
wealth was going to be constituted; in clauses,
other words, if he knew whether we Mr. LYNE: The hon. member, Mr.
were going to have equal state rights. Holder, was permitted to refer to the
That is what he must have had in his same question yesterday !
mind at the time. He regretted that the The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member l'e-
discussion upon state rights had not taken ferred to it, but he did not discuss it.
place before this discussion took place. Mr. LYNE: I do not desire to discuss
The hon. gentleman said still further as a the matter. I simply quote the reference
[Mr. Lyne.
t
Commonwealth of
101
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
We
made to it by the hon. member, and I may The Hon. A. DEAKIN: With her im-
perhaps be permitted still further to refer mense resources she has more to gain than,
to that portion of the hon. member, Mr. perhaps, any other colony !
Holder's, speech regarding the inter-state Mr. LYNE: It is true that we have
commission, and the powers of that com- immense resources in coal and iron.
mission, especially with regard to the have the key of the position, and before
waters of the Murray and the Darling we give up the key we must see that we
and their tributaries. The hon. member are not put into an unfair position.
spoke on behalf of South Australia when The Hon. A. DEAKIN : The key is of no
he said he did not wish New South Wales use without the lock !
to have the power to divert water from Mr. LYNE: If the hon. member means
the heads of these streains so that they by the lock a market for our coal, it will
in South Australia would have the bottle not be any greater under federation than
without the liquid. Now, there is no de- it is at the present time. But I do not
sire on the part of New South Wales to . want to be drawn into these side discus-
deprive these rivers of any water which sions. I cannot see where in the first few
would prevent the Murray in South Aus- years we shall gain at all. As to our hav-
tralia from being navigable. At the same ing a larger area, I think the other colo-
time New South Wales must stand by her nies, will have a larger area when they get
own interests. The question is intimately hold of New South Wales instead of New
bound up with the development of this South Wales having expansion in the other
country. With the hot dry tract of coun- colonies. We know that a great deal of
try which we have in the western plains produce comes from the south into New
New South Wales can never agree to allow South Wales. If that be so at the present
any authority whatever to deprive her of time, it will continue to be so under a
the right to use the waters of the Darling federation. There is a great market in
for irrigation and other kindred purposes. New South Wales for South Australia and
The hon. member should just as readily also for Western Australia-if she has
trust New South Wales with the head anything to produce apart from gold-and
waters of the Murray as he could trust also for Tasmania. At present we have
Victoria in dealing with this financial nothing to send to any one of these colo-
question.
nies, and I want to know, therefore, where
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I would trust the great advantage to New South Wales
the federation !
will come in under a federation ?
Mr. LYNE: The hon. member is pre- An Hon. MEMBER What about coal ?
pared to trust all the other colonies but Mr. LYNE: We send that at the pre-
this one colony, because he knows that it is sent time.
Victoria does not impose a
this colony which, on account of her large duty upon coal.
population, has such a great deal to lose. An Hon. MEMBER : But Tasmania does !
· The Hon. Sir GRAHAM BERRY: Will the Mr. LYNE: Tasmania has her own coal,
hon. member point out what New South and plenty of it, too. If I were a resident
Wales really would lose?
of Tasmania at the present time, I should
Mr. LYNE: What does she gain? I be against federation altogether, as is the
have not heard it stated what she will hon. member, Mr. Douglas. I do not see
gain. The only thing I have heard stated what Tasmania will gain by federation.
is that in the future she will be one of a She has the Sydney market at the present
united band of Australian colonies.
time, and she will have it in the future.
102 Commonwealth of [7 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Does the hon. Victorian border to Melbourne and a high
member say that she will always have the rate from the Victorian border to Hay,
Sydney market!
whilst from Sydney you have a low rate
Mr. LYNE: I hope not. Make no mis-
all the way through. If you have any-
take about it, if we had even the duties thing of that kind, the inter-state comnis-
which we had a few years back, Victoria sion and its powers must fall short of what
and the other colonies would be far more
is intended. So far as I am concerned, at
anxious for federation than they are at the the present I am not in favour of any
present time, whether they obtained equal inter-state commission. I am only stating
state rights or not.
what will be the result of such a commis-
The CHAIRMAN : Is the hon. member of sion. ſt must be to give as much lati-
opinion that a discussion upon the policy tude to merchants in Melbourne to send
of protection is in order upon this clause ? goods into New South Wales and to take
Mr. LYNE: I think it is intimately New South Wales produce to Melbourne
related to the financial question generally; · as is given in the case of Sydney mer-
but I admit that I was drawn off the trend chants. If you, by calling one rate a pre-
of my observations by the interjections of ferential rate, and another a differential
hon. members opposite. I did not desire rate, try to break up and interfere with
to go into this question as deeply as I have the arrangement, you will burst up the
done, although I admit that as far as this idea of an inter-state commission. I take
colony and the commonwealth is concerned it that at the present time the colonies are
the whole trouble in arriving at a basis is not prepared to hand over their railways
brought about by the fact that we are a to a federal parliament. Although the
free-trade colony, whereas all the other hon. member, Mr. Walker, and the hon.
colonies are protectionist. A few words—' member, Mr. Wise, and one or two others
and I will not detain the Committee long are iu farour of that proposal, I take it
as to the proposed inter-state commis- that the Convention as a whole is not in
sion. I listened carefully to what was said favour of it, and I do not think the inter-
by the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, and state commission will be agreed to, because
I think he did not quite strike the mark you might as well hand over your railways
when he said that differential rates must to the federal government as appoint an
remain while preferential rates were taken
inter-state commission as far as the in-
away. I agree that it is very difficult to dis- terests of this or any other colony are con-
tinguish which is a preferential and which cerned. The inter-state commission, I take
is a differential railway rate. If there is
If there is it, is for the purpose of seeing that there
to be an inter-state commission the logical is no rate of any kind imposed that will
result must be to take a point in Victoria, interfere with the ordinary ebb and flow
and to have a long-distance rate charged of trade from one port to another, or from
on the railways from that point right into one colony to another. Therefore, you
New South Wales; and in the same way might just as well hand over your railways
you could take a point in New South to the commonwealth as to an inter-state
Wales, and make those long-distance rates commission.
apply to the railways running, say, to Hay, Mr. SYMON : Will the hon. member
Bourke, or any other part of the colony. hand over the New South Wales railways?
If you are going to make the alteration at Mr. LYNE: I am opposed to it. I am
all, you cannot have an arrangement by simply pointing out what the effect of the
which there can be a low rate from the , appointment of such a commission must
1
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of [7 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
103
be, not as the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, coming parliament will be like in Victoria.
said, to still allow a differential, but not No doubt he and his friends now behind
a preferential rate. The effect of an inter- him will be returned.
state commission must be to give the same The Hon. A. DEAKIN : The parliament
privilege to any importer in Melbourne as will be just what the electors make it !
is given to any importer in Sydney. You Mr. LYNE: That is what I want the
might just as well hand over your rail- senate of the federal parliament to be.
ways to the commonwealth to be dealt The Hon. A. DEAKIN : But the hon.
with as it chooses, with rates assimilated member will not leave anything to par-
all over the colonies, as to hand them over liament to do !
to an inter-state commission.
Mr. LYNE: That is not the case. If
Mr. SYMON : We will accept that alter- I knew that the senate would be composed
native!
in the manner I desire, I am almost in-
Mr. LYNE: I dare say the hon. nem-
clined to say that I would hand over a
ber will, but I am not prepared to yield it. great many additional powers to the federal
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : It is only for the
parliament besides those I am prepared to
federal parliament to deal with them !
hand over at present. It is not seriously
proposed to hand over the debts or the
Mr. LYNE: I know that it is only for
rail ways to the federal parliament; but
the federal parliament; but we want to
what we do want is some
some reasonable
know what the federal parliament is likely
scheme--I do not say a scientific scheme-
to be, what its powers are to be, what are
but one that will meet with a response
to be the mode of election and the powers.
from all the colonies, so that the Trea-
of the senate. I agree very much with the
surers will be able, in the various state
hon. member, Mr. Holder, and I should
parliaments, to know each year what they
like to know how the senate is to be elected
are likely to obtain, and how far their
before I can speak with freedom as to
treasuries are likely to be augmented by
what I will hand over to the federal par-
the return they are to get from the federal
liament. I am almost inclined to think
that if the senate were constituted as I
government, so that they will not be left
on a sandbank, so that they will not be left
desire it to be, I might even be prepared bigh and dry by the federal government
to hand over the railways and perhaps the
saying, “We will only raise so much from
debts as well to the commonwealth. But
customs and excise," or nothing at all.
that will not be the case if the senate is to
The state parliaments would then be driven
be constituted as is desired by the hon.
into such a position that their principal
member, Mr. Holder, and his colleagues,
method of raising revenue having been
also by the members from Tasmania, and
taken from them, they would have to de-
perhaps Victoria. I am not quite sure
about Victoria.
pend upon direct taxation from one end of
a state to the other. At the present time
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Does the bon. mem-
the people of this country will not stand
ber know what the next New South Wales
anything of the kind. If I can form any
Parliament will be like?
idea of the feeling of the people of the other
Mr. LYNE: I have an idea and a hope colonies, and, I believe, of New South
as to what it will be; but, of course, I can- Wales at the present time, it is that there
not speak with any degree of certainty. should be a reasonable uniform tariff im-
No doubt the hon. member can speak with posed by the commonwealth parliament,
a great degree of certainty as to what the from which, to a large extent, must be
104
Australia Bill.
Conimonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
obtained money to carry on public works the proposals made, who have all satisfied
and pay interest on the debts. That directs themselves as to the conclusions they have
my attention to a proposal made by the arrived at, and they all disagree with each
Right Hon. Sir George Turner. He de- other. I think it is only fair to them to
sired, and rightly so, that the common- say that most of us disagree with all of
wealth should be called upon to pay nearly them. So that after a very careful con-
the whole, if not the whole, of the interest sideration of the scientific principles out
on the debts. What was the object of that? of which this financial problem is to be
It was to ensure the commonwealth raising evolved, I think we have come to the con-
a certain sum of money through the cus- clusion that the true note was sounded by
toms, or in some other way which would the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, yester-
relieve the various state parliaments, and day, when he said we have to trust the new
leave them their railway revenue or what- parliament. We can establish no scien-
ever other revenue they raised to meet the tific basis. We are giving life and death
expense of the ordinary administration of powers of infinite importance to this body
the states governments. That proposal we are constituting; a body, as he says,
was only another way of getting at what consisting of ourselves, not consisting of
I am attempting to suggest should be done strangers, who will work together in love
now, that is, getting a certain sum of and amity, and not as the colonies have
money that must be returned to each of from time to time worked—against each
the state parliaments for the purpose of other rather than on friendly terms. They
enabling them to carry on their adminis- have got to be trusted some day, and can-
tration. The hon, member put it in this not we trust them at once? The discus-
way : that the payment of the interest on sion which has taken place since the meet-
the debts, but not the debts themselves, ing of the Federal Convention has brought
should be taken over by the commonwealth me to identically the same conclusion as
and paid out of the commonwealth revenue. was expressed by my hon. friends, Mr.
I am quite in favour of that proposal. McMillan and Mr. Holder. I think in
That is a very reasonable way of meeting substance we have to trust the federal
the difficulty. I unhesitatingly say that parliament. There may be, as was suggested
before we arrive at any recommendation by the last speaker, an interval during
at all, we must arrive at the conclusion which there should be a minimum guarantee.
that there shall be a minimum returned, I do not know that that would be difficult.
not only to the New South Wales Govern- It would be consoling to the public, and
ment, but to all the states of the common- consoling to any treasurers, and there is
wealth.
this to be said in favour of it, that we do
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South not know exactly how this will work out.
Australia) [11:18] : I think hon. members The new parliament and the executive that
will agree that the desire of the hon. mem- controls the federation will have to find
ber, Mr. Lyne, to have the surplus returned out how the thing works, and what is best
to the states, on a scientific principle, is to do. They will all need experience, and
impossible.
they themselves will, of course, need edu-
Mr. LYNE: I do not say that we should cation to some extent, and it might be
have a scientific principle!
well, therefore, from that point of view,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We that there should be a guarantee of a
have had various very able persons who have minimum referring to some special year,
devoted themselves to the consideration of which I would not object to being com-
+
[Mr. Lyne.
.
Commonwealth of [7 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
105
puted on a per capita basis in the way in respect of long loans which will not
which was suggested by my hon. friend, expire for some time, and the same argu-
Mr. Lyne. I do not think it will make ments which were used by my hon. friend,
much difference. I think, if anything of
I think, if anything of Mr. Holder, with reference to the rail-
the kind were in the constitution, the re- ways will apply with equal force to this
sults would be identical; but it certainly question of the debts, the same arguments
would be a recommendation of the measure by which he showed conclusively that it
to the people, and would give them encour- would be inexpedient to provide that this
agement to supportit, which they very much matter must be left to the commonwealth
need at the present time. Now, as to the fears and not made a condition of the constitu-
of the disregard of the views of New South tion will apply with equal force to the
Wales, which the hon. gentleman referred debts. But still it is not contemplated
to, I am sure thereis not one who disregards that this surplus will continue. It is not
the views of any others. There is no colony expected that the parliament of the com-
that is not regardful of the views of every monwealth will not relieve the states of some
other colony. We have to consider how of their burdens so as to prevent this diffi-
this federation will work out. Supposing culty as to a surplus. The surplus I look
the government of the commonwealth were upon as a mere bogy. It is a matter which
handed over to the gentlemen who are will disappear very soon after the parlia-
here now, would we immediately set about ment is established ; it will disappear by
to try to do each other injustice? Would being applied to the wants of the people
the friendly feeling existing between us be by whom it was created.
-destroyed in a moment? Would every An Hon. MEMBER :
principle of right and justice which we The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: By the
pride ourselves on possessing be suddenly federal parliament. Taking over the debts,
dispersed, because we have a duty to the for instance, which was the precise point
whole of Australia instead of a duty to I was suggesting.
particular states ? I am sure that these. An Hon. MEMBER: While the debts
things have only to be thought of by rea- diminish the income will increase !
sonable decent men to be repudiated at The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: So it
once as childish and absurd. The longer will. I look upon it that it would be a wise
I dwell on this clause, and think of it, the thing to have, I do not say a permanent
more I feel inclined to give the most per- guarantee, like myhon. friend, Mr. Deakin,
fect trust to the gentlemen who will have suggested, but an interim guarantee for five
to conduct the business of this common- or ten years—I should think five years
wealth. As to taking over the railways would be enough-based on the customis
and debts I do not think it is necessary to revenue at the time of the commonwealth,
sayanything about that at the present time. or at some other time which may be agreed
The whole difficulty at present is this ques- upon. There would be no danger in the
tion of the surplus. But it will not be a guarantee—there would be great confidence
surplus for any time. One of the provisions to the general public if that were given.
in the bill enables parliament to take over
Now as to the basis on which the return
debts. It is manifestly inexpedient to shall be made I feel very much with my
endeavour to make the dealing of the right hon. friend, Sir John Forrest, the
debts a condition of the constitution. It difficulties in the way of Western Australia
would increase the difficulty of the execu- joining the federation if thescheme adopted
tive of the commonwealth in making terms at the last meeting of the Convention were
106
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
carried out. Perhaps they would have the commonwealth when established is the
disappeared to a large extent, but at all only possible method which can be adopted,
events it was clear that Western Australia,
and that there can be no scientific basis
I will not say in its abnormal state, in its on which the contribution can be estab-
state of extraordinary prosperity, would lished and continued.
suffer to a very much larger extent than The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
would the other colonies, and possibly (Western Australia) [11.30]: We have all
suffer so much that it would be impossible listened with pleasure to the speeches
that she should join. Supposing the pro- which have been delivered in regard to
vision in the bill of 1891 were carried out, this very important matter; and I think
I should think that there would be no we must all have come to the conclusion
difficulty at all with Western Australia. that the question we have to deal with is
Supposing the return were according to one so difficult that it is almost, if not
contribution, Western Australia, I imagine, altogether, impossible for us to place in
would find no difficulty at all in joining the this bill in precise words a scheme which
federation; and abstractedly that is the fair will be equitable and fair to all the
principle to go on, no doubt.
colonies. From what I have heard, there
Mr. SOLOMON : There is no difficulty in seems to be a greater inclination at the
doing that with regard to Western Aus- present time to place reliance upon the
tralia, for there is no border !
parliament of the commonwealth than was
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: There felt by any of us at any rate I speak for
are difficulties in doing any of these things; myself—at the former meeting of the
but returning according to contribution Convention. The reason of that no doubt
would be, after all, as.easy a method as any. is that we feel that the parliament of the
I believe that after a while returningaccord- commonwealth would be in a far · better
ing to population would bring about the position than we are, would have more
same results. But if we returned accord- information, more facts at its disposal than
ing to contribution we would be doing we have at the present time. The colony
something which is abstractedly the fair- I have the honor to represent is, unfortu-
est, and we should ensure Western Aus- nately, in a peculiar position in regard to
tralia joining the federation. I do not this matter, and I am prepared to admit
think that this is the time to make long at once that the colony of New South
speeches, and, therefore, I am not going to Wales is also in a peculiar position. Our
say more now. I think the tone in which circumstances are not the same as those of
this discussion was started by the repre- the other colonies. In New South Wales
sentative of New South Wales, Mr. there is a free-trade policy at the present
McMillan, and which has been followed by time which, as Mr. Lyne has told us,
all the other speakers—the speech of my makes it more difficult in preparing any
hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, was, after all, very scheme to bring that colony into line with
much in the same direction, although with the other colonies. In our own case, the
some divergences-I think that good note great prosperity, as Sir John Downer has
which was sounded will run through this put it, of Western Australia during the
Convention, and that this financial diffi- last two years has given to us a very much
culty, which seemed to be the stumbling larger revenue per head from customs than
block in our way, may be said almost to that received in the other colonies. On
be removed, because we are all beginning behalf of Western Australia, I must
more and more to understand that to trust acknowledge the very friendly spirit in
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer
Conmonwealth of
107
[7 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Biti.
fell swoop:
which this matter has been approached, as Of those imports about £3,000,000 came
it affects us. There seems to be a disposi-, from these colonies, and if we estimate the
tion all round to mete out what is equit- quantity dutiable at £2,000,000—because
able and fair to us and to every other we have a large free list-hon. members
colony. We are in a peculiar position in will at once see that £2,000,000 worth of
other ways. We are isolated. We have products would be admitted without duty
no means of communication except by sea. into Western Australia which now have
We are a long way off. As I have often to pay duty. That is a very important
said before, we mnight as well be an island matter to us, because it would probably re-
in the Indian Ocean as regards intercourse duce our customs revenue by a half at one
with these colonies, because something like
1,000 miles of unoccupied country separ-
An Hon. MEMBER: It would help to bring
ates us from the rest of Australia. We you into line with the other colonies !
have few products, I am sorry to say, to
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
export to these colonies at the present time. It would, no doubt, but we should lose the
Therefore, the advantage to us of a free- money.
trade policy would not be so great as it
An Hon. MEMBER: Put the duties on
would be to these colonies, who now have something else!
to pay duty on the goods they send to us. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
In our case, we have at present little to: The hon. gentleman says we can put it on
send to the other colonies. Owing to the something else. I know that is often said;
large introduction of population into the but, perhaps, when the hon. member speaks
colony and the development of our min- he will tell us what we can put it on. I
ing industry, we do not at present, and am well aware, as has been stated by
are not likely for some time to come other hon. members, that if a community
to be able to, produce sufficient for our does not pay the duty they have the money
own people. We have, however, one in their pockets. The only way—as was
product in regard to which we would gain suggested when I made an interjection to
an advantage, which we should be able that effect during the debate—is by direct
to export to these colonies, and which taxation. Well, in Western Australia we
we are not able to send at the present have no direct taxation at the present
time owing to the protective tariff. I time, and I do not think I should like to
refer to timber. Western Australia is go before my people and tell them that we
noted for its timber; and we should, no were going to give away our customs duties
doubt, be able to avail ourselves of the for the purposes of the commonwealth ;
markets of these colonies to a far larger that they would be largely reduced—re-
extent than we do at present. Then, again, duced by one-half, at any rate—and the
we contribute about £7 per head of the difference would be made up by direct
population on account of customs—at any taxation. We know what direct taxation
rate we did for the last financial year end- means. It means taxing one portion of
ing 30th June ; whereas, I think, in these the community and letting the other por-
colonies the average does not exceed £2 tion go free. I have not yet heard of any
per head. Therefore, Western Australia system of taxation in these colonies which
contributes through the customs £5 per is applicable to every person in the colony
head more than any of the other colonies. other than that which is usual by duties
Then, again, the total imports of that through the customs. So that hon. mem-
colony last year were valued at £6,500,000. bers will see that we are in a difficulty
108
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
in that respect too.
I have not had the bill of 1891 does this. I am aware it
time to give that amount of attention has been criticised by some persons, and
to these financial clauses that some hon. that it has been proved that losses will
members have done. I freely admit occur in some cases, and gains in others. I
that. But from the little attention I have take it, however, that a little alteration in
been able to bestow upon the subject I the wording of the clause will altogether
have come to the conclusion that the pro- prevent that. Mr. Lyne seemed to think
posals of 1891, with a little modification that we are in as good a position now to
which I will point out to hon. members deal with this question as the parliament
shortly, are far more equitable and far of the commonwealth will be. I do not
more simple than the proposals made in
think that we are. In the first place, the
Adelaide. I am somewhat at a loss to parliament of the commonwealth would
know what objection can be raised to the have some years' experience. Book-keep-
proposals made in the draft bill of 1891. ing, I think, would have to take place for
They seem to me, with a few alterations, some time, at any rate—whether short or
to be altogether equitable, and, from my long—and they would have that , experi-
point of view, satisfactory not only to ence to guide them; and they will be
Western Australia, but to every other nearer to the time when a decision is re-
colony in the group. What we desire to quired than we are. We have to decide
aim at, I think-at any rate, that is my upon facts as they are now. We have to
idea, and I think it ought to be the idea decide what will be equitable and right
of everyone else—is to give back to every some years hence, whereas the parliament
state the money it contributes, less the of the commonwealth will be able to de-
cost of collecting the duties and its share cide, with the facts before them, close up
of the expenditure of the commonwealth to the time when the decision has to be
on a per capita basis.
made. In regard to the proposal that a
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : How are certain sum per head should be guaranteed
you going to find out where the duties by the several states
arise?
Mr. LYNE: That would be a minimum!
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
What does the hon. gentleman mean by Yes, a minimum. It seems to me that
66 arise "?
that is scarcely necessary. It might be
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : The duty very well for some of the colonies ; but so
arises where the goods are consumed ! far as the colony I represent is concerned
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: I would not urge it, nor do I think I
There may be a difficulty in that respect, would support it.
but that is what we want to do. I am Mr. LYNE : I think every one is agreed
sure no colony wants to receive more than that Western Australia must be dealt with
it is entitled to receive or wants to get differently !
any advantage out of this transaction. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
All we desire is that we shall get our It means that New South Wales, Vic-
own money back. If that money does toria, Tasmania, and South Australia would
not come back to us in the form of a be guaranteed—if the amount claimed by
contribution, it should come back to us Mr. Lyne were fixed in the bill -almost
in other ways-by, I hope, our obliga- the amount of their present contributions,
tions, or the whole or some portion of our whereas Western Australia would be left
public debt, being removed. I take it that in the cold.
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
$
Commonwealth of
109
17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. LYNE : I think we are all agreed Legislative Council of Western Australia,
that Western Australia must be dealt that there be a guarantee for the various
with differently !
colonies of an amount based upon the aver-
An Hon. MEMBER : There might be a age of the preceding two or three years prior
minimum in each colony !
to the establishment of uniform duties, a
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: very reasonable one. It seems to me to
Of 30s. per head was what was stated. be a far more equitable plan than the one
South Australia would be guaranteed the proposed by Mr. Lyne.
whole of her customs revenue at any rate,
Mr. LYNE: That was not the proposal I
and Victoria would also be practically made!
guaranteed the whole. The figures I have The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
show that the contribution per head is- I understood that it was a fixed amount,
I am referring to a year or two ago_ Vic- applicable to every colony.
toria, £1 13s.; New South Wales, £2; Mr. LYNE: No, excepting Western Aus-
Tasmania, £2 ; South Australia, 30s.; and tralia, as a minimum only, and to extend
Western Australia, for last year, £7 15s. over a series of years !
Thus it seems to me that whilst it would The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
be very satisfactory that all the colonies Instead of fixing a minimum we might fix
should be guaranteed an amount practi-
the actual figures.
cally equal to their contributions, if any Mr. LYNE : But that would involve
suggestion of the kind is to find a place in book-keeping for a number of years !
the bill, the more equitable plan would be The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
to guarantee to each of the colonies a sum
I do not think so. There would be the
equal to the amount received the year be- past as well as the future to consider. I
fore the establishment of uniform duties. should like to say one word with regard
That would be absolutely fair to every one.
to public debts. There can be no doubt
Mr. LYNE : The right hon. gentleman is
that it will be a serious matter for all the
fighting very hard for Western Australia ! states if the customs revenue is taken away
An Hon. MEMBER : Let each colony from them for the purposes of the common-
take a year which suits it best!
wealth, and the only real means of obtain-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: ing funds is removed from them. It will
Hon. members may laugh ; but it seems to be a serious matter if the debts are still to
me that there is nothing whatever to laugh
remain in the hands of the states govern-
at. We may take one year or three years ments, and the states remain altogether
an average of two or three years-andguar responsible for them. It seems to me we
antee each colony an amount equal to that shall find ourselves in a difficulty if we let
average. I do not suppose that any one go the revenue from the customs and the
does not believe that the average would power of raising money from customs,
not be exceeded as time goes on. As these and still have to find large amounts of
colonies progress the amount would be a interest which we have to pay year by
mere bagatelle ; but if we wish to give year. I was certainly in favour when
securities to the Treasurers of the various I came to the Convention of the parlia-
colonies-and it is an important matter, ment taking over the whole, or a certain
and deserves serious consideration, seeing portion, of the public debts. I should
that they have large obligations which like that to be done now.
have to be met-I think the proposal I have been largely influenced by the
made by the Legislative Assembly and remarks of Mr. Holder yesterday. If what
I must say
I
110
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
he states could be assured-that we would credit should be better than it is under
have additional security given to our stock existing circumstances; but the fact re-
by having the federal commonwealth be- mains that at the present time the credit
hind it-I think it is a matter in regard of Canada is not very much better than
to which we must pause before we provide that of Western Australia.
in a bill that a debt should be taken over The Hon. E. BARTON: It is much better
at once.
I am not so certain myself that in Canada now than it was in the provinces
what he believes will take place will occur. before they federated !
I believe that the security offered by the The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
Australian governments at the present That is not the point, I think. I can say
time is considered by those who lend us a good deal in favour of the great colony
money to be excellent; and if that is so, of New South Wales; but even with its
any additional security will not increase population of more than 1,000,000, and
the price. I speak from memory-I may with its great resources, I take it that, as
be corrected if I am wrong-but I believe a borrower, its credit has not been better
the value of inscribed stock in Western than that of the colony I represent. I do
Australia at the present time is as good
not think that New South Wales has ever
as the inscribed stock of Canada. Mr. floated a 3 per cent. loan for £100 16s. 10d.
Holder, perhaps, will tell me whether I per cent.; but, if it has, my argument is
am right.
that the security of all these colonies being
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : The 3 per considered good, it cannot be rery much
cent. stock ?
better ; that those who lend us money are
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: satisfied that the security is good, and that
Yes; the 3 per cent. stock of Western we shall be able to pay the interest as it
Australia is as good to-day, or was a short becomes due, and be able to repay the
time ago-and it ought to be better to- principal when it becomes due; and, if it
day, inasmuch as things have improved— is, I do not think that any little additional
as the inscribed stock of Canada. A few security on a good document will increase
months ago the Western Australian Go- the price. If that is the case—and hon.
vernment placed a loan on the British members will think that out for themselves.
market of something like £1,000,000 --then I say that it is our bounden duty
at 3 per cent. It was the first 3 per at the present time to take over
cent. loan we had ever placed there, and The Hon. S. FRASER : But increase of
it realised £100 16s. 10d. That was by
That was by competition for the stock would raise the
far the best price that any Australian price!
loan has ever realised. Has Canada, The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
with its four or five millions of people, its
Has it done so ?
immense territory, and its federal govern-
An Hon. MEMBER : Not if the security
ment, been able to obtain money at a bet- is as good already as anybody could desire !
ter price than Western Australia, with a The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
small population, but with a large area, Then I say that it is our bounden duty to
certainly, has been able to obtain it? If provide in this bill that the surplus, in-
it has, then there is something in the stead of being returned, shall be applied
argument of my hon. friend, Mr. Holder. to the payment of the interest on the pub-
Of course our ideas tend in the same direc- lic debt, and that a proportion of the public
tion as the hon. member's. We all think debt of Australia shall be taken over on
that, with the dominion behind us, our some equitable basis. Then I think that
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
111
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
:
the number of adult males of the colony based upon the revenue that we were pro-
would be a fair basis. I think that we ducing from customs prior to the estab-
should not hesitate to place in the bill a lishment of uniform duties.
provision that the commonwealth should An HON. MEMBER : Will not that be
be bound to take over a proportion of the reduced in your colony in a few years'
public debt of each state-of course each time?
state being responsible to the common- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
wealth for the interest or the sinking fund, I do not think it will. I think that as
as the case might bem-for all expenses in the trade of the colony expands the amount
connection with it. The conclusion I have will be very much larger. If we were
arrived at on this matter is that the pro- to stand still and do nothing, and not
posals of 1891, with some modifications- go beyond our present development, the
before I sit down I will read the modifi- amount might perhaps decrease; but in-
cations I propose—should be the basis crease of trade must result in an increased
upon which we should deal with the finan- amount being received from customs.
cial portions of this bill. It may be neces- Mr. LYNE : But would not the amount
sary—I only throw this out as a sugges-
per head decrease ?
tion; but it has occurred to me that until The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
parliament should otherwise prescribe there I do not know. The same argument that
should be a statutory commission of two applies to others will apply to us, I suppose.
or three persons appointed to deal with Mr. LYNE: We are on the increase !
the finances, and to approve of the distri- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
bution. There will be difficulties in the I can deal only with the facts and figures
way, no doubt. Those difficulties must be
before me.
I do not know that we shall
I do not suppose that you
increase ten times.
would be able to get the exact figures-it The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Not in
is not likely that, with a system of inter- drinking power, surely!
colonial free-trade, it would be possible to
The Hon. S. FRASER : It was the same
get the exact figures, and that the amount in Victoria in the gold-digging days, and
of duty that belonged to each state could it will disappear in Western Australia as
be ascertained. We know very well it
it did there!
could not be; but, still, we will have to The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
make an approximation, and do the best I am not here to foretell what will take
we can, and I think that, if we provide place. I am certainly not here to foretell
that there shall be a statutory commission that we shall be less prosperous than we
until parliament otherwise prescribed, it are at the present time.
might be the means of giving satisfaction An Hon. MEMBER : You might be in a
to the different colonies, and make them great deal better position, and still your
more willing to go into the federal com- revenue from customs might become less !
monwealth. It has been suggested by
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
several hon. members that Western Aus- If it is fair to all the other colonies, why
tralia should have some special terms. I I should it be unfair to us!
do not know that we want any special
An Hon. MEMBER : Because your con-
terms. I think that, if the plan' I have
ditions are abnormal !
suggested were carried out, it would be The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST;
equitable and fair to all-that is, that we The revenue has been increasing for many
should be guaranteed a certain amount,
years. I do not know what the hon.
overcome,
112
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
We say
member calls abnormal. I have been over The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
six years in office, and every year there
has been an increase, and I do not think shall be charged to the several states in the propor-
that we shall go down all at once. At any
tion the number of their people bear to the total
population of the commonwealth, and the sur-
rate, I see no reason why it should be so.
plus shall, until uniform duties of customs have
It will be difficult for hon. members to
been imposed, and for five years afterwards, he
convince me or the people of Western returned to each of the several states or parts of.
Australia that we should be treated in a
the commonwealth.
different wayfrom any other colony. We do We then propose to insert sub-clauses I,
not want any special terms. We only wish II, and III of clause 9 of the bill of 1891,
to be treated in the same way; and if the
and to add these words :
proposal that has been made by the hon. After the first five years after uniform duties
member, Mr. Lyne---that we should be
of customs have been imposed, unless parlia-
ment otherwise provides, such surplus shall con-
assured of the customs we are receiving or
tinue to be returned to the several states or parts
have received the last two or three years of the commonwealth in the same manner as
or the last year, for some years ahead, near as can be ascertained, and such returns
say ten, and all the other colonies should shall, as far as possible, be made monthly.
be assured in the same way—is agreed to,
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : That is as
I think we will go a long way towards nearly as possible the 1891 arrangement !
meeting on an equitable basis. The alter- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
ations in the clause of the 1891 bill which Yes.
I would suggest are very few. The first The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: What
would read as follows:
is the difference between it and the 1891
The contribution of revenue by each state to
arrangement ?
the commonwealth shall be applied in the first The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
instance in the payment of the actual costs, In the 1891 bill the contributions from the
charges, and expenses incidental to the collec-
various states were all lumped together.
tion of such revenue, and next in payment of
the expenditure of the commonwealth, which We propose that the contributions of each
shall be charged to the several states in the pro- state shall be kept separate.
portion which the numbers of their people bear
An Hon. MEMBER : How are we going
to the total population of the commonwealth,
to find out what it is?
and the surplus shall, until uniform duties of
customs have been imposed, and for five years The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
afterwards, be returned to each of the several
It will be very easy to do that, if we have
states or parts of the commonwealth.
uniform duties of customs. The colonies
I then insert sub-clauses I, II, and ii of must do the best they can until parliament
clause 9.
otherwise provides.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FISH : In what The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New South
proportion would the return be made ?
Wales)[12:2]: Itake it that the object of this
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : discussion is, not to force us to any definite
The amount of the surplus contributed by conclusions, but to enable those who form
each state would be returned to that state.
the committee to gauge in some way the
Mr. TRENWITH : The right hon. mem- trend of the opinions of the Convention,
ber says, "shall be charged according to and to become acquainted with the de-
population.” Suppose the expenditure for velopment of political thought upon this
services in one colony is very much higher question during the interval of our ad-
than the expenditure in the other colo- journment. I think we may all congratu-
nies?
late ourselves that we have arrived much
[The Right lion. Sir John Forrest.
Conmonwealth of
113
[7 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
nearer to a solution of the problem in be much easier to express it in the consti-
this' respect, that we are becoming more tution. Above all things we must be care-
and more convinced that we must trust
ful to express what we wish in clear lan-
the great parliament which we are to create, guage, and with no unnecessary verbiage.
and are coming more and more to recog- The experience of all constitutions of this
nise the distinction between the principles kind is that there gradually grows round
which a constitution should contain and them a great mass of decisions. The courts
the functions which should be handed over interpret them continually, and a body of
to the legislature which has to carry law gradually grows up which is almost as
out those principles. I think we are com- important and as bulky as the constitution
ing to recognise that there are many ques-
itself. We must be careful that we use
tions in regard to which an attempt was only such words as carry out our meaning,
made at first to deal definitely which would and that no loose general expressions are
be much better left to a parliament which used which may enable interpretations to
will have more material, and will have be put upon the constitution which it was
circumstances more clearly before it than not our intention should be put upon it.
we have at the present time. I do not I would like in this place to make as clear
propose to say anything with regard to the as I can the view I take with regard to the
financial proposals beyond this, that I railway question. It appears to me that
cordially agree with the view expressed by there is no half-way house in this matter.
the hon. member, Mr. McMillan. I also Either you must hand the railways over
think that some proposal such as that sug- absolutely, federate them, and vest them in
gested by my hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, might the federal government, which would give
very reasonably be acceded to. My object you the advantages of one railway system
in addressing the Committee was to make throughout the commonwealth, or, if you
some observations which may, possibly, be do not do that, if for reasons which appear
of some use to those who have to consider
to me, and I think will appear to most
this matter, in regard to the aspects of the hon, members, to be good and sufficient,
railway question and the inter-state com- you do not wish to hand over the railways,
mission. I think it will be recognised that then you must accept the position with all
during the Adelaide sittings we did not its consequences. It appears to be thought
come to a clear understanding of each by some hon. members—the hon, member,
others' views on that particular question, Mr. Deakin, seems to be of this opinion,
I think there was a tendency at the time that under the provisions of an inter-state
to rather minimise differences with a view commission it would be possible for the
to getting to some kind of conclusion. We commission to fix upon some central point
cannot postpone coming to a conclusion on in the railway systems of the colonies, say
this question now. It is one of the most Cootamundra, and to arrange for long-
important questions with which we have to distance rates running to the New South
deal, and not only affects the form of the Wales and to the Victorian seaports upon
constitution, but it is atthe very basis of the equal terms. I think that the hon. mem-
agreement upon which the several colonies ber, and those who take that view, have
are willing to enter into the union. The rather mistaken the position in assuming
first thing to be clear about is the idea we that any such thing can be done. The
have in our own minds as to what we want position which it appears to me New
to do.
When we have the idea of what South Wales must take up under the cir-
we want clear in our own minds, it will cumstances is this: We agree that these
114
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
17 SEPT., 1897.1
warring tariffs which have been causing so in which you have two railways competing
much loss to the railway systems of both in any one district the effect has been to
colonies for some time past, must come to lower the rates of carriage to the persons
an end. Whether you call them preferen- living in that district. The general system
tial or differential rates, I do not think of the railway suffers, but the effect no
matters much for the purposes of my argu- doubt upon the producers, the persons in-
ment. We are all agreed that you may terested in the carriage of goods to a given
just as well obstruct freedom of trade by district, is to lowertherates to them. In that
placing prohibitory rates upon your rail- case you shift the incidence of injury from
ways as by imposing prohibitory duties the producersin a particular neighbourhood
through the Customs-house. Therefore we to the whole country which has to pay.
I
must arrive at some method by which this therefore assume that it would be taken
can be obviated.
for granted on all hands that we must have
An Hon. MEMBER : Would not the fed- some system by which the possibility of im-
eration of the railways have the very oppo- posing differentialrates against each other's
site effect?
products would be removed. Now it is said
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I am com- that that can be done by handing over the
ing to that. I am pointing out what a very power to a commission to fix some general
strong, and it may be dangerous, weapon rates upon the whole of the railways run-
you place in the hands of any state if you ning through the different colonies. But
give it the power of absolutely regulating that cannot be done consistently with
its own rates as it thinks fit. You may put maintaining the control of our railways,
it in any form you think fit. Suppose there and for this reason: Each colony has its
is a certain product coming into New South own railway carriage on its own system, and
Wales from Victoria which we wish to keep with a view to benefit particular localities.
out. If we have the right to impose rail- As a general rule the railways are worked
way rates in any form we think fit, there
form we think fit, there directly for the benefit of the state's own
is no reason why a rate of a prohibitive Crown lands, and those lands have been
character should not be imposed to prevent sold with the knowledge that railways will
this article from coming into New South be made as roads are made by the Govern-
Wales. So Victoria in her turn might im- ment to render them accessible. I look
pose a similar rate. Take the case of stock. forward to the day in New South Wales
Supposing under free-trade all duties upon when, preserving the system in the pros-
stock disappeared, it would be quite within perous condition in which it has been pre-
the range of possibility for Victoria to served, we shall make use of the profits,
impose such rates upon stock coming from not by putting them into the Treasury,
New South Wales by railway as would but by reducing the rates; and it is in that
practically have the effect of a stock-tax, respect that the state railway system in
or, vice versa, the process might be applied
these colonies differs in a very important
by New South Wales. I only point this out particular from the ordinary business .con-
to show what a dangerous weapon would be cern of a carrying company. Our railways
left in the hands of the state, and I agree are not only managed with a view to make
with the hon. member who interjected that a profit out of the carriage of goods and
the operation of it would have quite the op- passengers, but also with a view to the
posite effect. In all countries where there development of the country; and it is just
are government railways or where the rail- as much for the benefit of the state that
ways are in the hands of private companies people should be settled on the land, and
A
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
115
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
away with.
that greater facilities should be given for The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The
the opening up of the country, greater hon. member will know that amalgama-
facilities to bring produce to the seaboard tion takes place only upon a business
for export, as that increased revenue should basis, and I hope that it may take place
be derived from an increase in the carry- by-and-by in our case. No doubt it will
ing business of the lines.
under the permissive powers given by
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Would this constitution to the commonwealth.
not the hon. gentleman allow the reduced. While I think that each colony should
rates to apply to two ports and not to retain the control of its own railway sys-
Sydney alone, giving the benefit of the
tem, I say at once that that railway system
reduction of rates to producers, not only should be worked in such a way as not
in one direction, but in the other?
to be used unfairly against the railway
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: As long as system of another state. For instance,
you keep the railway systems separate, each take the case of Victoria and New South
colony will have the advantage of such Wales in Riverina. I say at once that
cheap rates as can be given by its railway provision should be made in this consti-
system to its own producers. I say, in tution by which the cutting rates of the
the first place, that the plan of each colony New South Wales railways coming Sydney-
keeping its own railways is advisable from wards, and on the Victorian railways, going
the point of view that its own people will to Melbourne, taking away traffic in either
derive all the advantages that can be de- case froin the other colony, should be done
rived from their economical and proper
management, among those advantages being An HON. MEMBER: Would the hon.
the special one of a reduction of rates in member have a uniform mileage rate ?
any way, or in any direction which may The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR:I say that
be thought desirable. What I was about it is not necessary. As far as that is con-
to point out was that if all the lines cerned every state ought to have the con-
are handed over, if you have a system trol of its own rates within its own borders.
under which the rates are fixed by some The only restriction which should be put
authority in the commonwealth, altogether. upon the perfect liberty of the state to fix
apart from whether it is or is not in viola- its rates is this : that it should charge in
tion of the constitution, what follows is all respects the same rates to the producers
this : Take, for instance, New South of other colonies as it does to its own.
Wales. Instead of her having the benefit Take a concrete instance
the railway
of the successful administration of the running from Hay to Sydney. I do not
railways in the form of reduced rates to think any produce run on that line should
her own customers, she would be obliged be carried at a lower rate than would ob-
to wait until the whole railway system of tain upon the same distance anywhere else
the federation was in a position to give
in New South Wales in order to attract
that benefit. Now, I say that if you are
traffic to our railways.
to have a system in which you hold your The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
own railways and bear the burden, you hon, member wants to take away our only
ought to have the whole of the advantage. weapon for the Riverina trade, and to keep
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The all the weapons which his own colony
experience of other countries is that bas!
amalgamation enables the rates to be The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not
reduced !
see how that could possibly be.
116
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : By The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : In no
not agreeing to a uniform mileage rate! country in the world are competing rail-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The right ways run on the lines suggested by the hon.
hon. gentleman will see what a uniform member.
mileage rate involves. I maintain that the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
country which has built the railways, which would put the railways in exactly the same
maintains them, and which has to bear the position as the American and English rail-
whole responsibility of their being worked
ways are put. You cannot fairly ask for
at a loss, ought to have the benefit of any anything better than that.
gain which may be made from them. I say The Hon. S. FRASER: Is any complaint
it is impossible, as long as you keep the ever made in America that railway com-
system upon that footing, to allow any panies charge too little ?
other state to come in and fix a rate for The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No. It
you which may involve a loss to you. All
is not my complaint; it is the hon. mem-
we can expect is this: that, inasmuch as
ber's complaint !
the railways of New South Wales adjoin
The Hon. S. FRASER : You say that we
the railways of Victoria, both being worked
charge New South Wales less than we
independently, that New South Wales
charge Victoria !
shall not impose rates which will unfairly
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Whoever
draw traffic from the Victorian lines, and,
makes the complaint, it is not that Vic.
in the same way, that Victoria shall not
toria charges less, but that she charges New
impose rates on her railways which will
South Wales traffic less than she charges
unfairly attract traffic from the railways
of New South Wales.
her own traffic, for the purpose of attract-
ing that traffic to the Victorian railways.
An Hon. MEMBER :
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If you wish
That is to say, Victoria charges preferen-
the advantages of geographical position, the
tial rates. Isay that should not be allowed.
The Hon. S. FRASER : New South Wales
only way in which you can obtain them
does the same at Bourke !
fairly is to hand over the railways. In
other words, the question must be treated
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Why?
in exactly the same way as if the railways
Because it is a necessity of the position
were private railways owned by private
that these things should be done. I say that
companies.
that kind of cut-throat competition should
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : If disappear under a system of the kind we
the railways were in the hands of private propose. After all, this is not a matter to be
companies there would be a through rate! settled on any abstract principle as to what
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR; That is a
is right or wrong, or what is just or unjust.
matter of arrangement; and there is no
It is only a question of what we can best
reason why such a thing should not be
do under the circumstances. Speaking for
arranged. The only way in which you
myself, although I am perfectly willing to
can deal with the railways is to treat them make any provision in this constitution to
exactly as if they were owned by private
ensure that these unfair differential rates
companies, always with this proviso: that
shall disappear, I shall be no party to any
they must be worked in such a way as not
arrangement that will give a right to any
to give unfair advantages to the people of authority outside of New South Wales to
one state as compared with the people of
fix the rates to be levied on the New
another territory.
South Wales railways. The next question
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : is—how have we attempted to carry this
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
117
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
out in the constitution? I was one of those purpose of pointing plainly to the extent
who strongly favoured the appointment of to which the interference with the local
an inter-state commission; but reflection rates—the rates on the different railway
has satisfied me that, with the bill in its systems-should be allowed. There is no
present form, it would be a very unwise mystery about it; the words are plain
and cumbersome way of dealing with the enough in their meaning. I call attention
question. The inter-state commission pro- to them now, because they emphasise the
vided for by the bill originally had its con- view I held, that the only interference
stitution fixed—that is to say, it was to that could be allowed is where railways
be a commission appointed with a tenure of are being run unfairly to the railways of
office as independent as that of a supreme
other colonies.
court judge. That has been struck out. Mr. MCMILLAN : It is to define their
As it is now, it is simply to be appointed duties !
as any other officers are appointed by a The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes; and
colony.
to point beyond all question to the fact
An HON. MEMBER: The tenure of office that there was no power given in the con-
can be regulated by the federal parliament! stitution to this commission except for the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I know purpose of seeing that the railways were
that; but in the constitution originally sub- fairly run, and the rates fairly made in
mitted there was a guarantee of the inde- the various colonies.
pendence of these officers; there was also a
An HON. MEMBER :
provision, which was struck out, restricting
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Without
the operation cf the commission to the that clause to point out the object and the
particular preferential rates which I hare duties of the commission, and without any
pointed out should be swept away. That
That guarantee as to its constitution, I should
has been struck out. Clause 97, as it now be opposed to the appointment of any inter-
stands, says:
state commission. Let une point out why.
The commission shall have such powers of
This inter-state commission would neces.
adjudication and administration as may be sarily consist of men of some expert know-
necessary for its purposes, and as the parliament ledge of railway matters. That, probably,
may from time to time determine.
would be a necessity. Now the duties
Originally there was this proviso added : which they have to perform are to execute.
But shall have no powers in reference to the and maintain upon railways within the
rates or regulations of any railway in any state
commonwealth and upon rivers flowing
except in cases of rates or regulations preferen-
tial in effect, and made and used for the purpose
through, in, or between two or more states
of drawing traffic to that railway from the rail- the provisions of this constitution relating
way of a neighbouring state.
to trade and commerce. These powers are
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
very vague and very general. It would
New South Wales representatives told us be impossible to hand over with any rea-
that those words were put in for the benefit sonable anticipation of satisfactory work
of Victoria, and I objected !
the duty of construing this constitution to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The hon. a commission of this kind.
member is mistaken in thinking that that The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The President
was the case. The hon, member, Mr. Wise, of the Inter-state Commission in America
said it made no difference, and I think it is generally a lawyer !
was the hon, member, Mr.. Barton, who The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I would
şaid that this proviso was put in for the point out the difference between America
118
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
and the state of things here. Even if you
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It would have
have a mixed commission, the duty of inter- to be appointed by the parliament !
preting this constitution should be placed The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No doubt
upon the highest judicial authority in the the parliament would have to pass some
commonwealth, and it should not be handed legislation constituting an inter-state com-
over to such a commission as we have here. mission. The act might simply be to con-
Therefore I have come to the conclusion, stitute an inter-state commission without
although I think an inter-state.commission limitations of any kind.
ought to be appointed, that such a com- An Hon. MEMBER : So it might be in
mission should be appointed by the parlia- the other case the hon. member has put.
ment under a statute passed by the parlia You might leave the whole thing to par-
ment of the federation. Then you would liament, unless you propose to abridge their
be in the position of being able to lay down jurisdiction !
lines upon which this inter-state commis- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Un-
sion should proceed. You would be able doubtedly. I propose to leave their juris-
to lay down certain principles and definite diction to be defined by the federal parlia-
limitations within which they should do ment within such limits as may be found
their work; you would be able to guarantee to be necessary. I wish to point out that
that they would have a certain status, with thisinter-state commission, as constituted in
a certain tenure dependent only on good this way, is not really a necessity for the pur-
conduct, and in that way you constitute a poses of carrying out the objects which we
commission wbich may have any powers
have in view. Clause 52 of the constitu-
you choose to give them, but which would tion gives a power to regulate trade and
exercise those powers on certain definite commerce with other countries, and clause
lines. Any inter-state commission, how-
95 is as follows:
ever constituted, in which you place the
Preference shall not be given by any law or
regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports
duty of interpreting this constitution,
of one state over the ports of another state, and
would certainly be a failure, and give no any law or regulation made by the common-
satisfaction to any of the parties concerned. wealth, or by any state, or by any authority
An Hon. MEMBER: Is not that exactly
constituted by the commonwealth, or by any
state, having the effect of derogating from free-
what is done now in clause 97 ?
dom of trade or commerce between the different
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : No; parts of the commonwealth, shall be null and
void.
The commission shall have such powers of
There may be a good deal of vagueness
adjudication and administration as may be neces- about these expressions; they may have to
sary for its purposes, and as the parliament may be amended in some way ; but, taking the
from time to time determine.
thing generally, I hold that, under the power
The bon. member, if he reads that clause, to regulate trade and commerce, and under
will see that the inter-state commission
the provisions of that clause which prohi-
might be constituted at once by appoint- bit preference to the ports of one colony
ment, without an act of parliament. over the ports of another, and prohibit any
An Hon. MEMBER: It must be by law! rates which have the effect of restricting
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If the hon.
trade or commerce, you have quite suffici-
member looks at clause 96, he will see that ent power to carry out all the objects we
the parliament may make laws constitut- have in view in regard to the doing away
ing an inter-state commission.
with these preferential rates.
Under an
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Exactly. almost exactly similar expression in the
clause 97 says:
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
11.9
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Constitution of the United States even the fair running of these railways within
larger powers than this have been assumed the four corners of the act itself. All that
by the commonwealth, and decided by the power flows from the right which is given
great jurists of the United States to be to regulate trade and commerce. Before
within the powers of the Constitution. I read the decision in that case I think I
An Hon. MEMBER : Quite a different may have the assent of the Committee to
thing!
this statement, that the interpretation of
Another Hon. MEMBER : The very oppo. our constitution will be most probably
site, the hon. member will find !
upon the same lines as the interpretation
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR:Iknow, and of the United States Constitution. In both
I think you will bear me out in this, that cases the law administered is the common
the words on which the inter-state com- law of England derived in this colony and
mission have been appointed are the simple America from exactly the same sources,
words at the beginning of clause 52 of and administered on exactly the same
this bill —"The regulation of trade and principles. I think we may take it that
commerce.” It is on these words only that the decisions which have established cer-
the United States have founded their right tain positions in America in the construc-
to pass the Inter-state Commerce Act. tion of their constitution will most pro-
Perhaps I may remind hon. members of bably be followed here. The case of the
what the position of things is in America. Wabasb, St. Louis, and Pacific Railway
The provisions in the United States Con- Company is reported in 118 United States
stitution are the power to regulate trade Reports. The court said :
and commerce, and the provision, which
It cannot be too strongly insisted upon that the
is very much like clause 95 of our bill, right of continuous transportation from one end
that no preference shall be given by any
of the country to the other is essential in modern
times to that freedom of commerce from the
regulation of commerce or revenue to the
restraints which the state might choose to impose
ports of one state over those of another,
upon it that the commerce clause was intended
and so on. These are the only two sec- to secure, This clause giving to Congress the
tions in the constitution which in any way power to regulate commerce among the states
deal with the matter, and under the pro-
and with foreign nations, as this court has said
before, was among the most important of the
visions of that power to regulate trade and
subjects which prompted the formation of the
commerce the Supreme Court of the United constitution. And it would be a very feeble
States decided in 1886 the case between
and almost useless provision, but poorly adapted
to secure the entire freedom of commerce among
the Wabash, St. Louis Pacific Railway
the states which was deemed essential to a more
Company and the State of Illinois, and it
perfect union by the framers of the constitution
was upon that decision that the Inter- if at every stage of the transportation of goods
state Commerce Act was founded. This
and chattels through the country the state,
within whose limits a part of this transportation
act deals specifically with the duty of the
must be done, could impose regulations concern-
Inter-state Commission, and lays down cer-
ing the price, compensation, or taxation, or any
tain rules which shall be observed in other restrictive regulation interfering with and
the carrying out of inter-state commerce,
seriously embarrassing this commerce.
and it is all founded upon the power which
As restricted to a transportation which begins
and ends within the limits of the state, it
is held to be contained in the constitution,
(the law of Illinois) may be very just and equit-
If hon. members will read the provisions able, and it certainly is the province of the
of this Inter-state Commerce Act they will
state legislature to determine that question.
But when it is attempted to apply to transport-
find that they contain everything which
ation through an entire series of states a prin-
can possibly be desired for the purpose of ciple of this kind, and each one of the states
0
120
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
shall attempt to establish its owu rates of trans- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The clause
portation, its own methods to prevent discrimi-
says:
nation in rates or to permit it, the deleterious
Reference shall not be given by any law or
influence upon the freedom of commerce among
regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports
the states upon the transit of goods through those
of one state over the ports of another state.
states cannot be over-estimated. That this
species of regulation is one which must be, if The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Does the hon.
established at all, of a general and national member say absolutely that that meets the
character, and cannot be safely and wisely re.
mitted to local rules and local regulations, we
case-as a lawyer ?
think is clear, from what has already been said.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I say, as a
And if it be a regulation of commerce, as we lawyer, that that absolutely meets the case
think we have demonstrated it is, and as the
of the whole of the differential rates we
Illinois Court concedes it to be, it must be of
that national character, and the regulation can
know of, or have experience of, up to the
only appropriately exist by general rules and present time. I say it absolutely meets
principles, which demand that it should be done
the case, for instance, of the differential
by the Congress of the United States under the
rates on the railways from Swan Hill to
commerce clause of the constitution.
Albury in Riverina, and it absolutely
The Hon. I. A. ISAACs: The hou. mem-
meets the case of any rates of ours calcu-
ber sees the distinction there!
lated with the view of attracting that
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The dis- traffic to Sydney ; because, in the case of
tinction is, and it brings out the whole posi- the railways which tap the river Murray
tion, that the power to regulate commerce within the lines I have indicated, those
gives a right to interfere in regard to any rates are all made for the purpose of giving
contract of railway carriage, where goods preference to the ports of one state over
pass from one state into another state or
the ports of another state.
through another state.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The hon. member
Mr. HIGGINS : And river navigation ! loses sight of the fact that the provision as
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: And river to preference to the ports of one state over
navigation as well. But where the carriage the ports of another, as cited in the case of
is entirely within the state the constitution the United States, does not apply to state
gives no right whatever to the federal laws; but the commonwealth must not
authority to interfere.
give preference to the ports of one state
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The preferential over the ports of another,
rates are all within the state-or nearly all! The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : By the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The pre- constitution it is expressly provided that
ferential rates are within the state, but the
any
law or regulation made by the common-
preferential rates within the state will be wealth, or by any state, or by any authority
met by clause 95.
constituted by the commonwealth
An Hon. MEMBER : The hon. gentleman
An HON. MEMBER : What law ?
forgets that there were no railways in The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Any law
America when the constitution was framed? or regulation. I am not discussing a consti-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: That does tution that we have rigidly agreed to. But
not affect the question. We are dealing I am willing, if any amendment is neces-
now with the constitution as it is. In
sary, that those words should be amended
answer to Mr. Gordon, clause 95 is exactly so as to make it perfectly clear that there
intended to meet the case he puts.
is enibedded in this constitution a prohibi-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Very eminent tion against any rate which will give an
authorities say it will not !
undue preference to the ports of one state
t
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Conmonwealth of
121
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
over the ports of another state. What itself provides, for instance, that the rates
shall be reasonable over the whole of the
more can be asked than that? If that is
done, if you prevent that preference being journey, that the rates shall not be un-
given by some words—let them be as large, justly discriminative. It also provides for
as strong, and as clear as you like-that
what is called the prohibition of charging
altogether meets the difficulty which is put a less sum for a long haul than for a short
by the hon. member, Mr. Gordon, and the haul, and in a number of ways it supplies all
other hon. gentlemen who have interjected. the guarantees which could be fairly asked
An Hon. MEMBER :
for in regard to any inter-state traffic. As
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: You would, regards traffic which does not pass continu-
no doubt, have to legislate in this matter. ously from one state to another, I say that
You would have to appoint an inter-state
clause 95 is quite a sufficient answer. I
commission which would have the power
should like to call the attention of the hon.
of dealing with questions of this kind member, Mr. Gordon, who has taken so
exactly the same way as is done in America. much interest in the river question, to this
An Hon. MEMBER: They fine and im- point: that exactly the same principles
prison a man in America !
which have enabled the United States to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : That is a
take the control of carriage by railway
detail ; it does not matter very much what
would enable the commonwealth to take
you do with him. You will have the sanc-
the control of navigation and of waterways
tion of an act of parliament. To bring
from one state to another, and, therefore,
my comments on this clause to a point, it whatever the provisions of this constitu-
not only prohibits the rates I speak of, tion may be, so long as they are not con-
but it makes them void ; so that any rate
tradictory of that, the constitution gives
of the kind made in violation of this power to the commonwealth to make laws
clause is a void rate, and cannot be col regulating carriage upon the rivers as well
lected. The position, therefore, that I as upon the railways.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : And the use
take in regard to the matter is this :
I say that as far as the preferential rates
of the water?
are concerned, which puts the railway
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The use
system of one state in an unfair position of the water as far as navigation is concerned.
in regard to the railway system of another The Hon. J. H. GORDON : That is only
state, that can be met by the provision of going half the distance !
clause 95, or some such provision. And I The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Thę hon.
say in regard to the carriage of goods from member, I know, wants the whole of the
one port to another, or through the differ- water, but the Convention was against him
ent states, that that comes absolutely within at Adelaide, and I do not think they will be
the power of the commonwealth to con- more favourable here. I have placed these
trol. Take, for instance, the main trunk views before the Committee, because it ap-
line from Melbourne to Sydney. It would peared to me that at this stage, though we
be within the power of the commonwealth need not come to any definite conclusion,
to absolutely control the making of those it is just as well that we should under-
rates to the extent that they were in any
stand each other. It is just as well that
way interfering in the treatment of any some statement should be made definitely,
person who had a right to use the rail- as far as New South Wales is concerned,
ways. As a measure of what can be done, of what we require in the treatment of
the Inter-state Commerce Act of America this question; and I should like to assure
122
Australia Bint.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
hon. members that, within the lines I have The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No, I do
pointed out, I am quite willing to make not say that. You must either take over
any amendment which would be necessary the railways or leave them as they are, with
to carry out these purposes. As far as the this exception : that you may very reason-
inter-state commission is concerned, I do ably make provisions which will insure
not think it would be wise to encumber the that the preferential rates which have
constitution by such provisions. I think it been causing so much loss on our railway
would be very much better to give the power borders shall no longer continue. I have
to make this kind of legislation to the fede- made these observations, which have been
ral parliament. If we trust it with many drawn out to a greater length than I in-
other things we may trust it with that. tended, in order that we may understand
Then the power may be given in such a exactly what we are about before we come
way that it may be exercised by the kind to a decision.
of body which is likely to be appointed. [The Chairman left the chair at 12:53 p.m.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : You give no
The Conimittee resumed at 2 p.m.]
weight to geographical position !
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [2]. [Com-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Certainly mittee counted] : I should not have risen
not, and we had better understand one to claim the attention of the Committee at
another.
this time but for the lucid and admirable
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : You make the speech which has been delivered by Mr.
political boundary the test !
O'Connor, who has given me the cue for the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The federation few remarks I feel bound to make. Before
must eithertakethe railways orleave them! I deal with Mr. O'Connor's speech, I should
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Un-
like to wedge in such remarks as I may have
doubtedly. There is no half way about the to makeupon the general financial question,
matter. Hon. members want all the advan- and then deal with that of the railways. I
tages of taking over the railways, and want may state that at Adelaide, as well as here,
to leave New South Wales the disadvan- I carefully abstained from speaking much
tages. We cannot consent to any such on financial matters, simply because I feel
proposal. If the railways are to be treated that upon financial matters, more than
as if each colony retained its own, then upon any other, there is need of modifica-
they must be dealt with exactly on the tion of opinions to suit the views of others.
same principles as if the railways in each I feel that upon financial matters, more
state were conducted by private companies. than upon any other, there is need of give
I am quite willing that that should be and take; and I have found it rather a
done ; but there should be no general fault in myown mindand I suppose other
handing over to any authority power to members find it also—that if you have once
fix the rates in such a way as would elim- expressed your opinion on a particular
inate all geographical boundaries, and put point, especially in public, you are apt to
the other colonies in exactly the same adhere to that opinion more obstinately
position as if they had to bear the burden than you would have adhered to it if you
and responsibility of the railways of New had not expressed it. But I have also felt
South Wales.
that, upon financial matters, official experi-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : In other words, ence tells more than any other thing. A
the hon. gentleman declines to take over man of official experience, especially as a
the railways aftogether, or to leave them Treasurer, can speak with more weight; and
precisely as they are !
we who have no official experience—wew.ho
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
123
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
SO.
have not had anything to do with the Trea- Mr. HIGGINS : Just so.
It is just
sury or its difficulties_ought not to dispose because we shall have to find the money
of the finances upon mere grounds of theory in the meantime that the financial problem
without hearing exactly how the financial has become of such importance. It is ex-
proposals will affect the treasuries of the actly as the author of the “ Autocrat of
different colonies. I have felt from the first the Breakfast Table"
says, “Tomorrow
that the financial question must be settled morning's breakfast subtends a larger angle
eventually by some rough-and-ready adjust- in a man's mind than the welfare of the
ment that it cannot be settled upon any nation for future years." And it must be
pure principle of theory, and cannot be The difficulties of the Treasurers of
settled upon terms of absolute justice to the different colonies are before their minds,
every one.
I have been anxious, as far as and they must see that they have enough
I can, to leave my mind open upon the finan- with which to carry on the government of
cial matter to the very end of the debate; the states. We must bear in mind that
but I have been invited—and I accept the the loss in the adjustment of the financial
invitation—to express how the position problem will be no more than the loss
strikes us unofficial members, so that the inflicted by an invading army. It will be
Finance Committee may be able to go to a great loss no doubt, but still time will
its room, and to frame a scheme which they cure any ill effects which may arise from
see some reasonable prospect of carrying the temporary injustice. To go back to
through-a scheme which bon. members problems which hon. members faced in
will afterwards be able to recommend to the first instance, it appears to me that
those whom they represent. I also feel that, there are two causes of our difficulty with
although the financial question presents regard to the financial problem. The two
great dificulties, and is of great import- causes, I think, are the New South Wales
ance, it is put altogether out of its true tariff and the Western Australian tariff
perspective in the columns of the press and and conditions. I speak of the Western
in the debates in Parliament. I
Australian tariff, inasmuch as it taxes
all respect that it has the least important more articles than any other colony.
bearing of all the problems of federation The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
upon the ultimate welfare of the people of Not at all !
Australia. I say that, in the main, the Mr. HIGGINS: I know I speak under
financial difficulty is a problem of the tran- correction. But if the right hon. gentle-
sition period, and, being a problem of the man will look, as I have looked, at the
transition period, it necessarily must be comparative table of tariffs which has been
transitory ; that whatever solution may published
be effected will be transitory in its effects, The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : It
and that, even supposing any great loss is two or three years old !
occurs to any state of Australia by any Mr. HIGGINS: I do not wish to per-
financial proposals losses spread over
severe in that statement if I am wrong.
some years to come—the resources and the But if there has been an alteration within
capabilities of the different states are such the last two or three years which reduces
that, eventually, they will be able to over- the number of taxable articles, then I have
come the injury which may be occasioned. no doubt I must correct my statement.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : They Twoyears ago the Western Australian tariff
will have to find the money in the mean- taxed more articles, and of course by that
time !
means taxed a number of articles frona
say with
124
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.
"Gen-
other colonies which the other colonies did nies could not in self-respect do anything
not tax. To go back to my main point, I more than simply to retire and say,
say that the New South Wales tariff and tlemen, you are treating us as robbers ; we
the Western Australian conditions are the shall have nothing more to do with this
two causes of our difficulty. I feel that in matter." But I feel that the heart of the
dealing with this matter we must try to people of New South Wales is in favour
adopt that system which will be suitable of federation, and that they will trust the
to the conditions of the majority of the representatives of the other colonies to be
colonies, and that we must make special as just to New South Wales as they expect
arrangements for the special conditions of the representatives of New South Wales
the minority of the colonies. By the to be just to the other colonies.
minority of the colonies I mean New South The Hon. E. BARTON : They will have
Wales and Western Australia. I think their share in determining what is just !
that the opinion is hardening all round Mr. HIGGINS: They will, most de
this House, and throughout this country, cidedly. With regard to the New South
that special arrangements must be made, Wales difficulty, I agree with the hon. mem-
at all events in regard to Western Aus- ber, Mr. Lyne, that, without going into
tralia, and I think also that special provi- the merits of free-trade or protection, it is
sion must be made in the Commonwealth an absolute truth-no one can deny it
Bill to obviate the fears of hon. members for that the tariff of New South Wales, as it
New South Wales, and gentlemen who have exists at present, is a difficulty with regard
written in the press and otherwise in New to New South Wales in this federation.
South Wales, so as to show the people of An HON. MEMBER: And the land
New South Wales that no glaring injustice revenue !
at all events will be done to them in the Mr. HIGGINS: At all events, in con-
course of the federation. I may say in sequence of the peculiarity of the New
passing that I am quite sure that there is South Wales tariff, it has been put forth
no desire on the part of Victorians, or on
that New South Wales will pay far more
the part of the people of the other colonies,
under a uniform tariff towards the expenses
to take any advantage of New South of the commonwealth than the other colo-
Wales. There is no desire_there is no nies will pay. Of course, I need not go into
cunningly-laid trap as I have seen stated that reasoning again; but the idea has been
in one of the articles--on the part of the strongly urged, and it has been spread by
people in the other colonies to take one the press with much diligence. It takes a
penny more from New South Wales than good deal to kill an error; but if anything
they are entitled to take for the federa- could have killed an error, I do not think
tion. I might say also in this connection that that error should still be living, having
that if I were to think that certain articles regard to the speeches and the letters of a
and speeches which I have read within the member of the Upper House of New South
last few months, written and delivered Wales—the Hon. Mr. Pulsford—whose
in New South Wales, in regard to the speeches and letters I have read with the
grasping intentions of the other colonies, most intense interest.
as against New South Wales, could be The Right Hon. G. H. REID: He is
taken as representing the deliberate views becoming quite a favourite authority with
of the majority of the people of New South Victoria now!
Wales, I should say that we Victorians Mr. HIGGINS: Thereis nodoubt that we
and the representatives of the other colo- are willing to take light from any quarter.
[Mr. Higgins,
Commonwealth of
125
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
agree to that!
The Hon. E. BARTON : Does not the Mr. HIGGINS: I would not say that
right hon. member, Mr. Reid, think that Mr. Coghlan made an error.
he might as well lend Mr. Pulsford to the Mr. TRENWITH : Oh, no!
protectionists for a time?
Mr. HIGGINS: Because he simply
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I quite said, "I have nothing else to go upon, and,
therefore, I take the tariff for 1893, 1894,
Mr. HIGGINS: We shall be very happy and 1895, and I say that if New South
to take Mr. Pulsford to Victoria, and to Wales were to import the same quantity
give him as much information from our of commodities under a uniform tariff as she
point of view as he will be able to give us imports now, then she would pay so much
from his point of view. I have no doubt we customs duties.” No doubt, as a matter
shall learn mutual lessons; but I say that of arithmetic it turns out that New South
if the error could have been killed the Wales would, on that basis, pay far more.
error which has been based on a false read- But Mr. Coghlan is still more guarded
ing of Mr. Coghlan's tables-it would have when he follows on his remarks. He says:
been killed by the speech of Mr. Pulsford.
For example, the first series is headed, “New
I hold in my hand a speech which he de- South Wales tariff;" and shows the value of
livered in the Upper House of this colony,
goods imported into each colony for home con-
sumption, the value of narcotics and stimulants,
and I quote it because he has given the
the value of goods which would have been sub-
exact words used by Mr. Coghlan, which ject to duty under the New South Wales tariff,
show that Mr. Coghlan has been most and the value of goods that would have been
guarded and careful in his statements; and
admitted free. The second series gives like in-
formation on the assumption that the Victorian
I think that a great deal of injustice is
tariff was in force in the other colonies as well
likely to be done to the Government Sta- as in Victoria during 1893, 1894, and 1895 ; and
tistician of New South Wales, who merely so on with the tariffs of South Australia, Western
Australia, and Tasmania.
based his figures on the only facts which
he had before him, and who set out the Wbat is the result? In the first place,
figures correctly, and, in my opinion, in observe that Mr. Coghlan is going purely
most guarded language.
on an assumption, and bas explicitly said
The Hon. E. BARTON : He has done the that he is going on an assumption. A num-
sums properly !
ber of persons, in their reasoning, have
Mr. HIGGINS: He has done the sums said: “Look at these figures for New South
properly ; but, at the same time, it must Wales.”
be admitted that it was his duty to do the The Hon. J. H. HOWE: He adopted that
He had to do the sums on some method to get at a certain result !
basis, and he has taken the only basis The Hon. E. BARTON : Dr. MacLaurin,
open to him. Mr. Coghlan has stated this:
in the Legislative Council, said that those
In order to show what might have been the
were the figures of the Convention them-
result had the tariff of one of the other states
selves !
been adopted in the years under review, instead
of the tariff actually in force in each state, the
Mr. HIGGINS: I think that Dr.
schedule of customs duties of the federating MacLaurin was right in this respect. It
colonies has been applied to the imports of each will be remembered that, in the speeches
of the other states in turn, on the assumption
that the goods would have been importea to the
at the Convention upon the finances, there
same extent, no matter what tariff might be in were some members who put them forth
operation.
as figures which represented actual facts.
Mr. TRENWITH : An erroneous assump-
Mr. McMILLAN : No; as only approxi-
tion !
mate, I think!
sums.
K
126
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
"[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. HIGGINS: I think that the hon. I have mentioned, and, being lower, pro-
member was more guarded ; but if the hon. duced more revenue. So that this was
member said that they were approximate, not fair to Victoria.
I think even there he was incorrect.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Mr.
Mr. McMILLAN: Well, they were a guide! Coghlan did not favour New South Wales.
He took the later tariff here. He took my
Mr. HIGGINS: They were a guide if
lower tariff. The same tariff was used in
a certain assumption were correct. The
both cases.
whole thing depends upon the word "if."
Mr. HIGGINS: I understand that
Mr. MCMILLAN: A matter of degree.
there was an alteration in the New South
No doubt, the extreme degree was in the
Wales tariff during the year 1895, but I
absolute statement !
think that with regard to Victoria the
Mr. HIGGINS: At all events, what I I
comparison was hardly fair. Mr. Pulsford
submit is, that not even approximately gives an instance of its unfairness. In .
are these figures to be taken as correct, Victoria, because of the protective tariff
and they were never meant to be taken as
there, the importation of a number of
correct. Mr. Pulsford, in the very short
articles is absolutely, or almost absolutely,
speech to which I have referred, goes on excluded; but these articles come into
to say that in addition to the fundamental New South Wales. This does not mean
error with regard to New South Wales,
that the consuming power of the Victorian
the years 1893, 1894, and 1895 are abso- people in regard to such articles is less
lutely the most unfair years which you than the consuming power of the people of
could take in regard to the other colonies, New South Wales ; it simply means that
and notably in regard to Victoria.
they consume home-made goods. Mr. Puls-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : They are ford instances the facts in regard to the
unfair years for us, too!
importation of soda crystals. He says
Mr. HIGGINS: I understand that the
that in Victoria there is a duty of £2 per
right hon. gentleman was in office during
ton upon soda crystals :
those years?
That is an absolutely prohibitive rate. Last
year some portion of a ton got into Victoria, and
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No!
£1 4s. 8d. was collected on it. There was no
Mr. HIGGINS: I believe the right hon.
duty in New South Wales on soda crystals, and
last year 700 tons were imported. It is very
gentleman was in office during the years
easy to see that 700 tons at £2 amounts to
1894 and 1895, and I am not aware that
£1,400. That is the system adopted in these
any year could be a bad year under his tables. But is the assumption correct? Already
regime.
in this colony we make a certain proportion of
our soda crystals without any duty. Put on a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It was duty, similar to that in Victoria, and what
better than it otherwise would have been, becomes of our exports ?
no doubt!
This, no doubt, should be imports.
Mr. HIGGINS: Mr. Pulsford also They disappear just the same as the imports
shows that the Victorian tariff which is of soda crystals have disappeared in Victoria,
and in their disappearance disappears also the
referred to as Mr. Coghlan's basis for his
revenue assumed as possible of collection, and
reckoning, is the tariff of 1896, whereas
so much of the difference disappears. I have
the figures given are for the years 1893,
taken the trouble to calculate what this differ,
1894, and 1895. The Victorian tariff, in
ence is as a matter of percentage, and those gen.
tlemen who want to give the country a start
consequence of changes made in 1895,
and frighten it very much about the cost of fed-
was lower in 1896 than in the three years eration, may possibly take advantage of it. The
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
127
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
difference between £l 4s. 8d. in Victoria and Mr. HIGGINS: There is no doubt that
£1,400 in New South Wales is actually no less
if you have a uniform tariff with a pro-
thau
tective tendency throughout Australia it
Let the Treasurer and Premier of New
will, to a certain extent, develop the manu-
South Wales mark this-
factures of New South Wales. Of course
110,000 per cent.
the Premier of New South Wales will say
Every hon. member will see the absurdity that the development would be at the
of the calculation. Therefore the difficulties
expense of more productive industries.
which perplexed the Finance Committee
Still, such a tariff would protect the manu-
in Adelaide, and the financiers of the vari-
factures of New South Wales, and would
ous colonies who bave discussed the matter
encourage the production of articles for
since, and which have led to the principal home consumption. In the meantime,
bone of contention in this and in the other
before New South Wales has her manu-
colonies, are owing to a mistake in taking
factures established, she will be able to
as facts what are mere assumptions. I
import from Victoria, and from other
have listened to the debate during yester- colonies, articles which are manufactured
day and to-day with a great deal of in-
there. It is certainly clear that whatever
terest, and I was sorry to hear that the
may be the incidence of a protective tariff,
Treasurers of South Australia and Tas-
there is no increase of price proportion-
mania stilllaid emphasis upon these figures.
ate to the amount of the duty. What I
At all events, the Treasurer of South Aus-
regret is that the hon. member, Sir Philip
tralia went so far as to say that there was
Fysh, and the hon. member, Mr. Holder,
no doubt whatever that a uniform tariff
seem to have taken the view that a
would inflict great injustice upon New
uniform tariff would injure New South
South Wales. He did not support his con-
Wales, without giving us the reason for
tention with any figures, so far as I could
that contention. The hon. member, Sir
see, unless we are to understand that he
Philip Fysh, referred to some tables pre-
assumed that Mr. Coghlan's figures repre- pared by the Government Statistician of
sented facts.
Tasmania, who takes certain articles such
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I did not base
as tea, coffee, sugar, narcotics, and stimu-
my statement upon Mr. Coghlan's figures.
lants, and says, “If you take these articles
I thought it was self-evident !
by themselves, looking at what has been
Mr. HIGGINS: Of course I speak upon
consumed in the past, in the future the
this subject with nothing like the weight
consumption of New South Wales will
which attaches to my hon. friend's utter-
be greater than the consumption of Vic-
ances; but I should like to be convinced
that there is a real and serious danger of
toria." For the purpose of this calculation,
Mr. Johnston took the year 1895. I do
large injustice being done to New South
Wales by the imposition of a uniform
not think, however, that statistics as to
tariff.
the consumption of articles during one year
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Would not
are of much use. I think you must take
New South Wales have to pay a tax to
the statistics of a series of years, or else
Victorian manufacturers for a time? you cannot get any definite knowledge as
Mr. HIGGINS: I do not think so.
to the trend of trade or the bulk con-
The hon. member is entering into a very
sumed.
large question, which opens up the inci- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
dence of the tariff.
why Mr. Coghlan took a period of three
Mr. GLYNN :
years !
128 Commonwealth of [7 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
I am
Mr. HIGGINS: Well, I am speaking do for that colony. Both Sir John Forrest
now of the figures of the hon. member, and Sir James Lee-Steere have placed
Sir Philip Fysh. I want to confine my it beyond all doubt that as things stand
remarks, to one thing at a time.
at present it will be utterly impractic-
glad to see that the members of the Con- able for their colony to enter into this
vention who have spoken are coming round arrangement. But, unfortunately for the
to the conclusion that in regard to the Convention, these gentlemen have not quite
distribution or adjustment of the surplus, intimated to us what they would propose
the more you leave to the federal parliament as a workable alternative. I understand
the better. That is a view which I am that Sir John Forrest wants to go back to
strongly in favour of. If you leave it to the 1891 scheme; but his good sense will
the federal parliament--and if New South at once tell him that that would not be
Wales has sufficient confidence in the con- fair to the other colonies.
stitution of the federal parliament that its
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
great population will be sufficiently repre- Why not?
sented in both houses, I think you may
Mr. HIGGINS: It would not be fair
leave it to the federal parliament—it will
to make the distribution in proportion to
see that New South Wales does not suffer
the amount collected.
injustice. In fact I should go so far as
The Right Hon. Sir JouN FORREST :
this, if it were needed : I should allow the
Why not?
sliding scale of the bon. member, Mr.
Holder, to apply, so as to avoid injustice
Mr. HIGGINS: The figures were
being done to New South Wales, or I
worked out by Sir Samuel Griffith in an
article which the hon. member must have
should allow the federal parliament to
read.
vote subsidies to those colonies which, by
any means of investigation, might be found The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST:
to be injured by virtue of the unifornı tariff Mr. HIGGINS : It really comes to the
coming into force. With regard to the same thing. I imagine that we shall be
suggestion of the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, able to meet one another eventually by
to have an unlimited guarantee for all leaving as much as we can to the federal
time, I could 1100 fall in with that. I can parliament. I do not see why Western
understand a guarantee for, say, five years. Australia should not come in under a
I think all you want is to have a guar- federal arrangement under which there
antee for a time that is reasonably within would be a guarantee to all the states of
If we limit the guarantee a certain percentage of the amount of their
for five years, the period of transition, and customs and excise duties. Say, for in-
make the Treasurers feel that they would stance, there were a guarantee to Western
not have a big deficit to face, that they Australia, Victoria, and other colonies of
could look well about them and see what 70 per cent. of the amount which has been
arrangement could be made to meet the
collected in a certain year. It would be
expenditure, that is all that is required. a matter of detail to arrange afterwards
There is a danger in guaranteeing a fixed which year should be selected. I think,
sum for ever. No one can foresee the however, that there was a great deal of
position of these colonies. It might be force in the argument of the hon. member
a great injustice to some colony. Then Mr. Walker, that the first year after the
to Western Australia, there is no operation of a uniform tariff would not
doubt that the present scheme will not be a good year. to select. It might be
your ken.
as
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
129
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australico Bill.
1
fairer to take the second year when things surplus which may be found to exist after
would be more settled under the new the necessary federal expenditure is the
conditions.
best course to adopt. Now, with regard
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
to having a distribution at all, I am
Mr. HIGGINS: Of course it would strongly of opinion that there need be no
mean that we should have to keep up the actual distribution. I hold strongly the
book-keeping for the second year; but it view that it would be possible to have
might be better to do that than to have a matters so arranged that in place of actu-
scheme in your bill which would not be ally paying back to the government of
workable for so many years as the consti- each state its per capita share of the sur-
tution was in existence. We want a scheme plus, it should be applied, to a certain ex-
to bridge over the five or six years of tran- tent, in payment of the interest on the
sition, and I would rather have book-keep- public debt. It will come to the same
ing—although I admit that it is open to thing, whether we hand the surplus to
objection-for two years of the uniform the state treasuries, or whether we apply
tariff than I would adopt a scheme which it to a reduction of the interest on the
was unworkable. I think opinion is drift- public debt. I think the idea of paying
ing in favour of a per capita distribution the interest on the public debt of the states
combined with a guarantee to the trea- in proportion to the lowest scale of bor-
suries of a certain percentage, and com- rowing is about the best course. Supposing
bined also with a special provision to meet one colony had borrowed £67 per head, and
the difficulties of New South Wales and another colony only £40 per head, all you
Western Australia. I think opinion is would have to do at the most would be to
going in a direction which would leave the insist that the surplus should be applied
matter to the federal parliament; but upon in paying the interest on the lowest scale
the assumption that there will be a per of borrowing. In that regard I think the
capita distribution, except so far as it may bill might be amended. We say here that
be necessary to make exceptions. I do the commonwealth may take over the state
not think that anyone who is acquainted debts, or any proportion of those debts.
with these colonies and with other parts of It was at my instance, in the last session
the world can say that there are any com- of the Convention, that the words referring
munities on the face of the globe which to the proportion of the debts were in-
are so similar in their habits of life, in serted. I think some distinction should be
their clothing, their food—I will not say made between the principal and interest
in climate-as are these communities of of the debts. Take, for instance, an amount
Australia, New Zealand, and Tasmania. I of £10,000,000. At 4 per cent., the in-
have never been in Queensland, and I know terest would be £400,000; at 3 per cent.,
very little of Western Australia ; but I it would be £300,000. You might, for
have been in the colonies of South Austra- the same amount of principal debt be pay-
lia, Tasmania, Victoria, New South Wales, ing in one colony £1,350,000, and in an-
and New Zealand. You find similar food other colony only £1,000,000. Conversion,
consumed and similar clothes worn in all I think, must be put off until we can so
these colonies, and, taking things allround, convert as to give the benefit of the pre-
there is the same average degree of wealth. mium to ourselves, and not to speculators
I say, therefore, that taking the matter in in London; but until the federal autho-
its broad aspect, a comparative distribu- rity guarantee the public debt, it will be
tion in proportion to population of any possible, I think, for the commonwealth
130
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
to distribute the surplus in paying the to be at liberty to impose differential rates,
interest in ratable proportions. I shall even to that point at which they become,
now proceed to refer to railway mat- in effect, preferential.
ters with which the hon. member, Mr. The Hon. S. FRASER : Differential rates
O'Connor, dealt. I think the members of would not give them the traffic !
this Convention are indebted to that gen- Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. member
tleman for having put before us the view speaks with experience as a Riverina sta-
which he holds, and which I understand tion-holder, who gets an advantage from
most of the representatives of New South these cutting rates. I am sure his experi-
Wales hold in regard to interference with ence will bear me out that it is a great
the rates of the railways. It seems to me advantage to a producer in Riverina and
that in regard to the other financial ques- all round that district to have two railway
tions we ought not to separate without systems fighting for his business.
settling them in some way. It would be The Right Hon. G. H. RCID: A wan
an eternal scandal if we should have to gets free-trade in New South Wales and
separate without settling a problem which freer trade in Victoria !
is merely a problem of transition, and Mr. HIGGINS:I hope New South Wales
which, at the most, means a possible members will understand that I think this
temporary loss to some state or states. system of competition between the two
We should, as regards the main question railway systems is to be deplored. It
about the surplus, be able to settle some- means eventually a loss to the states, to
thing, and we shall settle something. the people, and it means extra taxation
But, with regard to the railways, if the and burdens. There is no doubt whatever
hon. member, Mr. O'Connor, and those that it inflicts a loss upon the Victorian
who think with him persist in their en- railways to take wool from Echuca at
deavour there will be very grave danger, 2s. 1d. when sent by New South Wales
indeed, of a deadlock in our scheme. I producers, while they charge about 6s. to
say it with profound regret. I can look the Victorian producers. That, no doubt,
at the question from the point of view of is a loss to the Victorian railways, and I
the hon. member and his friends, and I see want to stop that.
exactly how it strikes them. I will ask The Hon. E. BARTON: There is no
the hon. member to try to look at it for a federal aspect in that!
few minutes from the point of view of Mr. HIGGINS : No; neither is there
Victoria. The lon, member wants to be a federal aspect in that system by which
fair, and the only question is: What is you charge less for the carriage of goods
fair? The probleni is this : You must in for 200 miles in New South Wales than
some way let the federation have control, for 400 miles, or convey the goods 200
or the right to interfere with the rates on miles for practically nothing. All I urge
the railways, otherwise the provision for is that we must either have in play the
intercolonial free-trade is nugatory. Hav- principle of competition between these
ing once done that, the question is: how rival railway systems
far you will interfere? The hon. member's Mr. WISE : Even if we federate, there
suggestion is this: He says, in effect, "In- must be low rates for long distances !
terfere with and probibit preferential rates,
Mr. HIGGINS: No doubt that is the
the only means by which Victoria has a I feel that you must either let the
chance of securing the Riverina trade or principle of competition operate fully or
any part of it, but allow New South Wales not at all. If you are going to have the
case.
:
[Mr. Higgins.
Comnionwealth of
131
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Awstralia Biti.
purely commercial competitive principle, if that is too much to expect at this time
you must leave Victoria free to charge if Australia is not ripe for such a thing,
what preferential rates she likes. On the we are with you in having an inter-state
other hand, if you want the thing to be commission, or in remitting the question
federal, we are with you. If you want the to the federal parliament to make arrange-
railways worked in the interests of the ments so that the railways shall be worked
producers without regard to the interests in the interests of the producers, and of
of the individual ports we are absolutely Australia as a whole, without regard to
with you. The only point is this: I do the port at which the goods are to be
not see how Victoria can be asked to give delivered. But if you come to us, and
up the only weapon with which she endea- say, “You give up this preferential rates
vours or can endeavour to secure any of system, but we will keep our differential
the Riverina trade unless New South Wales rates system which will force goods to go
consents to give up her weapon also. The over 400 miles more cheaply than they go
hon. member, Mr. R. E. O'Connor, is one to you over 180 miles," I am afraid it will
of the fairest members of the Convention, be impossible to 'persuade the people of
and I appeal to him to say how be can Victoria to agree to such a proposal. I
expect us to go back to our constituents have not the least right to speak for any
and ask the people of Melbourne to prac- one except myself, but I am giving my
tically destroy their profitable trade with own well thought-out opinion that it is
Riverina, because it not only means the impossible to ask Victoria to do that. I
carriage of goods on the railways to Mel- say either abolish the competitive system
bourne, but also a considerable back trade altogether, or else let competition have
in the shape of the supply of stores, &c. free play. We cannot occupy any middle
How can he expect us to give up the only position. If you have competition, compe-
weapon with which we can keep the trade tition is a war, and we shall use all our
which would be ours naturally, and which guns. The only guns which Victoria bas
has been ours for many years ?
to secure the Riverina trade are the pre-
The Hon. S. FRASER: It has always been ferential rates.
our trade!
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Then you
Mr. HIGGINS : Yes, but you will find must regulate and control trade and com-
that there is more and more a tendency merce !
for goods to be supplied to Riverina from Mr. HIGGINS: Among the returns
Sydney, because of the differential rates given to the Adelaide Convention there
being worked on so low a scale for long was an act from Queensland which cast
distances. What I say is this: “Gentle- à very important side-light on this ques-
men, we are with you, as far as I am con- tion. In the act they did not distinguish
cerned—and I am only speaking on my very clearly between preferential and dif-
own responsibility_if you will make the ferential rates, but it is perfectly clear
railways absolutely federal property." that they mean preferential rates. It would
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : That is to appear that New South Wales is doing
allow you to fix the rates to please you ! to Queensland exactly what Victoria is
Mr. HIGGINS: Nothing of the sort. doing to New South Wales. And Vic-
I say we are with you if you will make toria is doing to South Australia exactly
the railways absolutely federal property what New South Wales is doing to Vic-
to be worked in the interests of Australia toria. It is a lamentable state of things.
as a whole. Even if we cannot get that, There is no doubt that.we impose differ-
132
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
ential rates in Victoria for the purpose been promulgated and otherwise arranged for,
of drawing trade away from Adelaide to
which have had, and are continuing to have, the
effect of diverting the traffic which ought legiti-
Melbourne. There is no doubt also that
mately to be conveyed over the railway lines of
New South Wales is doing the same thing this colony, thereby entailing a considerable loss
with regard to Melbourne. The question in railway revenue : And whereas it is considered
is, shall or shall not all this attempt to drag
desirable to prevent, as far as practicable, this
diversion of traffic: Be it enacted
trade from its natural channel be put out
And the enactment is that every bale of
of the power of the states? If you want to
wool or every dray with goods that passes
put it out of the power of the states to have
over the Queensland border into New South
the railways worked on any but one Aus-
Wales has to pay a certain export tax.
tralian system in any reasonable fashion,
The Hon. S. FRASER: That does not
we are with you. But we cannot persuade
the people of Victoria to give up this sys-
affect goods. It affects only wool!
tem of preferential rates unless you give up
Mr. HIGGINS: I think the hon. mem-
your differential rates.
It does not mean
ber will find that it does.
The Hon. S. FRASER: That has never
an additional burden to the producers, be-
cause we are quite of the view that there been put into force !
must be differential rates for the back
Mr. HIGGINS: I see that it applies to
country. A uniform mileage rate is im-
station produce, wool, sheepskins, and
hides.
possible owing to the circumstances of Aus-
tralia. You must give the producers the
The Hon. S. FRASER : To wool and
advantage; but the producers would get sheepskins, but not to goods !.
more advantage under what I propose,
Mr. HIGGINS: What you in New
because, in place of their having low dif- South Wales complain of Victoria doing
ferential rates to one port, they will have you do yourselves against Queensland, and
low differential rates to two or more ports.
you are willing to give that up; but at
They will have the choice of Melbourne or the same time you are not willing to give
Sydney. And, supposing we had a zone up differential rates within New South
system of 100 miles, it must be a through Wales. The hon. and learned member,
system with the political lines of separa- Mr. O'Connor, said very fairly that in the
tion between the colonies obliterated. The United States there is nothing to prevent
recital in the Queensland Border Tax Act differential rates even if they have the
of 1893 is :
effect of attracting traffic to a port of that
Whereas large sums of money have been ex-
state; that the provision of the constitu-
pended by the Government in extending and
tion only affected the intor-state traffic
maintaining railway communication with the
southern and western districts of the colony, for
rates, from one state to the other. But look
the purpose of promoting agricultural and pas- at the difference between the conditions
toral settlement in these districts ; And whereas
of the United States and the conditions
large sums of money have at various times been
expended by the Governinent in harbour and
of these colonies. Every capital here is at
river improvements for the purpose of in-
the seaboard; every capital is a port;
creasing the shipping facilities of the colony : whereas in the United States you have
And whereas a large sum of money has been, and
only a comparatively few states on the sea-
is being, annually paid by the Government in
subsidising direct steam communication with
board, and a great mass of states—forty-
Europe, primarily with the object of facilitating three or forty-four in all-behind. Only
the speedy and direct shipment of goods and pro- a small number of these states are affected,
duce therefrom and thereto: And whereas it has
and, more than that, you have there no
been ascertained that differential rates on the
railway lines of the neighbouring colonies have
states of the huge size which are proposed
!
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
133
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Aristralia Bill.
con-
here. In talking of the states in Australia railways and the rivers the provisions of
you ought really to talk of slices of a this constitution relating to trade and com-
continent. You have Western Australia merce. Now, these provisions are
which would swallow up France, Austria, tained chiefly in clause 95. That does not
and Germany, and something else without hinder a preferential rate ; but then, if the
those countries hardly being missed. You hon. and learned member looks back at
have also South Australia and Queensland. clause 52 he will see that the very first sub-
You cannot say that the same principle clause says that parliament may make laws
ought to apply to a place like Australia as for the regulation of trade and commerce
applies to the United States. When the with other countries and other states. It is
Constitution of the United States was under a similar provision that the Federal
framed they had no railways. With us Parliament in the United States has the
railways are a vital part of our existence; power to make laws which forbid preferen-
they are the great civilisers, they are the tial rates. Looking at clause 96, I think, if
arteries by which the trade is conveyed from you want to avoid preferential rates, you
one part of the continent to the other. This will have to add some words indicating
provision, if railways had had to be dealt that the inter-state commission is to regu-
with by those who framed that constitu- late and maintain, not only the provisions
tion, would have been framed on a more of the constitution, but also the provisions
liberal basis than that which is proposed. of
any
federal laws made under the consti-
Now, clause 95, about equality of trade, tution. I shall now refer to clause 52. It
has to be read with the first part of clause is under the first sub-section of that clause
52. Clause 95 is divided into two parts.
that all these extraordinary powers to ap-
It first states that preference is not to be point an inter-state commission have been
given by any law or regulation to one port conferred :
over another. That has been held in The regulation of trade and commerce with
America to mean that preference is not
other countries and among the several states--
to be given by any law of the common- It is under that, and under that alone,
wealth. It still leaves the power for that we can stop the system of preferential
any state to put on a preferential rate. rates. I cannot think of the railways ex-
The 2nd part of clause 95 says that no cept in connection with the rivers. It is
law or regulation made by the common- under that same clause that the United
wealth, or by any state, shall have the States Congress has kept open the rivers
effect of derogating from freedom of trade of the United States. I voted at the Ade-
A preferential rate would not have the laide Convention in favour of a federal
effect of derogating from freedom of trade. control of all the rivers—and I hope to
Freedom of trade means that you must have the opportunity of voting for it again
allow the products of other countries to so far as they are navigable, and to keep
come into your country free. But here a them navigable. I think we could not con-
preferential rate has the effect of drawing sistently be in favour of federalising the rail-
the products of other countries into yours ways unless we were in favour of federalis-
for a less sum than they would pay if ing the rivers, as far as they are navigable.
drawn in your country. So that that clause The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Does that
does not at all affect preferential rates so far include the Yarra !
as regards states. Clause 96 says the parlia- Mr. HIGGINS: There are plenty of
ment may create an inter-state commission rivers in Victoria which run into the
—for what purpose-to maintain on the Murray. We have the Goulburn, the
1
134
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Campaspie, and a number of others that Mr. HIGGINS: My view is this : that
are affected. So far as rivers are navig- we should strike out that sub-clause 31,
ble they ought to be under the control of so far as federalising the rivers is con-
the federal parliament, and the federal cerned, and insert a special provision to
parliament ought to be able to keep them suit the circumstances of Australia, so
navigable.
that, while you allow the federal parlia-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : And pay ment to control the navigation, you also
for them ?
provide that they shall have power to give
Mr. HIGGINS: Yes, pay for them ; to any state a reasonable use of the waters
that is quite another point. I admit that of all rivers and tributaries for the pur-
the rivers of Australia are quite different poses of irrigation. I think it is possible
from the rivers of America, because in to arrange that there shall be irrigation of
Australia we require the waters for irriga-, adjoining land without any serious inter-
tion If you leave it to the federal parlia- ference with navigation; but a number of
ment to control the rivers, you should pro- precautions will have to be taken to pre-
vide that that control of the rivers should vent interference with navigation. I feel
not make it impossible for the waters to that I have taken up as much time as I
be diverted within reasonable limits for am entitled to take; but, as this is the
the purposes of irrigation.
only opportunity I shall have of placing
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: So long as the my views before the Finance Committee,
navigation is conserved !
I should like to refer to one or two other
Mr. HIGGINS : So long as navigation matters. First, in regard to clause 88,
is.conserved in a substantial form in the
which provides that “uniform duties of
other colonies.
customs shall be imposed within two years
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: We do not after the establishment of the common-
want to provide that. It is the law now! wealth,” I would suggest that the word
Mr. HIGGINS: A mistake was made
excise” be inserted after the word "
in sub-clause 31 :
toms." Obviously, that is necessary.
The control and navigation of the river Mur-
The Hon. E. BARTON : It might not be
ray, and the use of the waters thereof from
where it first forms the boundary between Vic-
necessary, at that stage, to impose excise
toria and New South Wales, to the sea.
duties. That is why "excise” was left
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It was
out!
not considered a mistake !
Mr. HIGGINS : It is practically cer-
Mr. HIGGINS: I want to be perfectly
tain that we shall have excise duties as
frank, and to say that since the meeting of
well.
the Convention in Adelaide I have looked The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : That is,
into the matter carefully, and I find that assuming that we want that limitation
if that sub-clause were struck out it would
at all!
be better for those who want to federalise
Mr. HIGGINS: If you say uniform
the rivers than if it were left in the bill as duties of customs, you must also include
it stands.
excise ; otherwise a state, by imposing
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: As far as excise duties, could avail itself of a system
navigation is concerned you get navigation, of protection by altering its excise duties
and the use for irrigation purposes of a
to a serious extent.
certain portion of the river, and you give
The Hon. E. BARTON: It is provided that
up control for navigation purposes of the on theimposition of the uniform tariff, duties
whole of the river.
of customs and excise in the colonies shall
cus-
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
135
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
cease!
cease; so that on the passage of a customs the commonwealth, whether by means of internal
law, excise duties in all the colonies would carriage or ocean navigation shall be absolutely
free.
Mr. HIGGINS : It is provided that the
Apart from the verbiage of the clause, I
exclusive power to impose customs duties
may say, speaking frankly, that one of the
serious obstacles to the acceptance of the
is not to come into force until uniform
duties have been imposed by the parlia-
constitution in Victoria is any sudden con-
vulsion in regard to the border duties.
ment of the commonwealth. That is to
There is at present a stock-tax on the
say, in the meantime the state shall be at
liberty to alter or impose duties. I think
Murray. Personally I am strongly against
the tax.
that is dangerous, for this reason : You
At the same time I want to
are giving over all the revenues by cus-
carry out the view so ably put by Mr.
toms and excise to the commonwealth, and
Holder that the great thing to be achieved
the states will no longer receive these
in making a constitution is that there shall
be no sudden, violent convulsions. Nothing
revenues. But a state, seeing that it does
not receive duties of customs and excise,
causes so much injury as sudden convul-
but that these all go to the commonwealth,
sions. I should like to warn hon, members
of this : that the stock-tax has been in
may reduce the revenue-producing duties
within its boundaries during the two years
operation for a few years, and under it our
prescribed in the clause, so as to lighten
small farmers are in the habit of breeding
calves; it pays them to do so.
The men
the burden upon its people at the expense
of the commonwealth.
whohave big runs find that it pays better
to introduce store cattle from New South
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Will not
that induce the commonwealth parliament
Wales and to fatten them. A number of
to pass the uniform tariff as soon as
our farmers are seriously afraid of hav-
ing the breeding of their calves suddenly
possible?
Mr. HIGGINS: Still you cannot tell
stopped; they are afraid of having their
how long the making of a uniform tariff living taken from them. One of the mem-
bers of the ministry has announced that he
may take. It would be as well to provide
that there should be no tinkering with the
will stump the country against the Federal
Bill, and he has more influence with the
state tariffs until a uniform tariff had been
farming community than any other person
made. It is only a short time at the most.
in Victoria.
An Hon. MEMBER : They might want
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Of
to put on a primage duty or something
course it is not a ministerial question !
like that!
Mr. HIGGINS: I admit that. But
Mr. HIGGINS: There might be a pro-
vision that no state should alter its duties
the point is this: The minister, who has
without the consent of the Governor-
adopted this attitude, has based his argu-
General-in-Council, in order that there
ment upon reasoning with which I cannot
should be no interference with the amount
concur in the slightest. All he has sug-
of the customs revenue.
gested is that the duty shall be taken off
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : You
in stages; that there shall be a sliding
might say, not to reduce the amount !
scale-that it shall slide over five years.
Mr. HIGGINS: There is another
The Hon. E. BARTON : Would the hon.
matter. In clause 89 it is provided :
member have the customs tariff of the
So soon as uniform duties of customs have
federation increased by means of a sliding
been imposed trade and intercourse throughout
scale?
136
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. HIGGINS: There is a good deal a number of friends who are members, and
to be said not only for taking off duties who wish to remain members. In fact
gradually, but for their gradual imposition, nothing but the most ingenuous generosity
as long as we enact in the bill what the of the hon. member towards the gentlemen
stages shall be. There must be a provi- to whom I refer would have prompted
sion in the bill for a graduated scale. him to make such an extraordinary state-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: It is like
ment as that with reference to such an
pulling a tooth out by stages. Why not
obnoxious bar to intercolonial free-trade
pull it out at once ?
as the stock-tax of Victoria. He would
Mr. HIGGINS: But it is not a tooth
actually, as to that particular form of ob-
stacle between the colonies, bring about
in this case. All I suggest is suggested
not from the point of view of a protec-
freedom of Australian intercourse by safe
and mild doses. It seems to me that if
tionist or free-trader, but from an inde-
pendent point of view—from the point of
any such plan is put forward, we have a
view of one who wants the bill to be
very strong claim on the part of this colony,
carried. I hope a clause will be inserted
in view of the circumstance that there is
allowing the federal parliament, at all
so strong a representation here and in the
events, to alter the duties by steady grada-
other colonies of opposite views in fiscal
tions and not all at once.
I think we
matters. I think we might very fairly
might produce too violent convulsions and
come forward with a request that there
interference with trade if we tried to do
should be some sort of a provision drafted
were
which, if it happened that we
it in one year. I am frequently called, in
Victoria, a radical; but I can see that I
eventually to be exposed to a tariff of
am the most conservative man here. I
20 or 30 per cent. would enable us to
do not want violent changes. I do not
gradually get accustomed to it. I do not
think there is anything which does a
ask for any such stipulation. I feel that it
country so much harm as violent changes.
would be trifling with this great question
I have taken up more time than I in-
of federation if the people of these colo-
tended, and it is only the importance of
nies were not prepared absolutely, and at
the subject and my anxiety to make the
once, to surrender every shred of advan-
bill as acceptable as possible to a large
tage which they get by putting up barriers
class of the community that I have been
against their Australian fellow-country-
induced to make my remarks so long.
If we are not prepared for that, we
are simply wasting time in endeavouring to
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
bring about this federal union. I am suffi-
South Wales) (3.15]: I have listened very
ciently in earnest about it to be prepared
attentively to the able speech of my friend,
to risk every fiscal principle in which I be-
Mr. Higgins, and I do not think we should
lieve, and for which I have fought for so
criticise too severely the concluding re-
many years. I am prepared to risk my
marks of the hon. gentleman, in view of
fiscal principles in view of the commanding
the fact that a general election is about to
national destiny which we are called upon
take place in the neighbouring colony.
to realise, feeling at the same time suffi-
Mr. HIGGINS : There are no farmers in
cient confidence in my principles to believe
the electorate I represent!
that, just as we have been able to win here,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I know. we shall be able to win in the federal par-
My hon, friend, with his usual disinterest- liament, if not at once, at no distant date.
edness, is not speaking for himself, but for I am prepared, at any rate, to take the risk
men.
.
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
137
[7 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
1
of all these things, and every federalist dangerous position at once, because the
must do so. We cannot make reservations notion of any power being able to control
about rival matters.
the management of railways, which has
Mr. HIGGINS : Not even about railways! no responsibility financially in respect to
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I think the management of those railways, is too
we will all admit that the freedom of all absurd, I think, for any reasonable body to
the Australian colonies from customs entertain. It has always seemed to me to
duties set up by one colony against an- be a question of handing over the railways
other is the most vital point of federal and the liabilities, so that each and every
union, because the fact that the railways Australian railway can be administered
are in the hands of the state is simply an upon federal lines, or leaving them with
accident. In some countries of the world those who are responsible for their main-
they are not in the hands of the state, and tenance, and for paying their expenses. If
they are worked upon widely different you leave them, then it seems to me that
lines. Observations have been made by a this attempt at having an inter-state com-
number of hon. members, in reference to mission is ill-advised, that the colonies
railways and rivers, which I think are must be left to make their own arrange-
somewhat out of place now, although very ments, and it ought to be possible that
valuable, for I think the Finance Com- they should. We in New South Wales
mittee, in asking for an early considera- have, rightly or wrongly, built lines into
tion of these clauses, desired rather assist- the south-western parts of our own terri-
ance as to the very difficult problem of tory. If an inter-state commission, sup-
dealing with the question of federal posing it existed, interfered with the
finance.
working of those railways interfered with
The Hon. E. BARTON: It will all be our endeavour to get traffic for those
useful !
long lines-would it be fair or right in a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: As the federal spirit, for instance, that the inter-
hon. and learned member says, it is all state commission should so arrange that
valuable, and it will probably save discus- those railways should become absolutely
sion at a later stage. I do not intend now unprofitable, and should be thrown on the
to enter on any discussion of the matter hands of New South Wales? I merely put
affecting the railways and the rivers, except that illustration as showing that, whilst
to make one or two observations. In the the railways are running at the expense of
first place, I quite agree with an exclama- New South Wales, New South Wales must
tion made by the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, be left free to run them in such a way that
this morning : We must either take or they may pay. If some other body wishes
leave the railways; and the reason is to run them on some other principle, in
obvious. If we take the railways into the order that some otherlines shall pay better,
federation, we take with them all the or in order that some geographical facts
financial responsibilities; and then, having and distances shall be respected, let them
taken the financial responsibilities, we pay the expense, and then no one can com-
can administer all the railways in the plain. They can only pay the expense by
general interest. But if we, as the federal taking over the responsibility, and, as far
power, endeavour to interfere with rail- as I am concerned, when the federation is
ways the responsibilities for which and the ready to take over those long railways
management of which are entirely rested which we have constructed far into the
in individual states, we get into a very south western parts of this colony, we will
1
138
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
leave
be quite in a humour to bargain with them not give over their rights in regard to
for their sale. Therefore, I pass by the rivers in those colonies I mean the navi-
inter-state commission as an endeavour to gable rivers, and I believe that the Yarra
build a bridge which would not rest at is a navigable river. Now, passing away
either end on a solid basis.
from those two matters, I come to the diff-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : But you culty we are in. We have always felt the
an impassable river !
gravity of this problem of financein connec-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: My hon. tion with federation, because we have always
friend has been for many years very keen felt that the power of raising revenue by
on this matter of river navigation and means of customs and excise must, in the
railway rates, and as a South Australian nature of the case, be handed over to the
patriot it is quite right that he should be. federation, and that power being the source
I am just giving him a little bit of New of nearly the whole of the Australian
South Wales patriotism in return. As to revenues, in handing it over we practically
rivers, the same principle applies. If the commit the financial interests of each colony
federal power is to take over all the rivers to the supreme control of a federal power,
of Australia, whether they do or do not which is a very serious thing to do. If we
run through different states, I can quite could by any method manage so that, in-
understand that. Then they become re- stead of the commonwealth financing the
sponsible, not only for their navigation, states, the states should finance the com-
but also for the maintenance of the navi- monwealth, the project would be infinitely
gation. But under clauses 95 and 96 it simpler ; but I feel that, in the nature of
does seem to me that there are certain
the case, that cannot be done, and therefore
rights taken over, with respect to rivers I have to face the difficulties to which that
in New South Wales, which are not ac- view leads me, and I confess that the more
companied by the necessary responsibili. I look at all those difficulties the more
ties. Therefore, whilst I think it will be serious they appear. Some tables have
found that this colony will always act as been referred to, and also some conclusions
the proprietor of a water-course ought to which have been drawn from those tables,
act in reference to other proprietors having and I am very glad that my hon. friend,
rights in a continuation of the same water- Mr. Higgins, has most fairly pointed out
course—whilst I hope that we will always that the criticism of these tables, so far as
do that, and even carry out any irrigation it reflected upon the person who con-
works at such time and in such a way as structed them, was entirely undeserved.
not to injure our natural waterways, such It is the wrong use which has been made
as we have in the Darling, the Murray, of those tables which might well be made
and the Murrumbidgee; whilst I hope that the subject of criticism. As a matter of
we will always act in that spirit--and fact, they simply workout in simple figures
hitherto we have done so, because we have on the basis of facts, and on an assumption
cleared rivers for our cousins without which is quite open to argument and quite
charging them anything for it—whilst I open to analysis, and which is indeed a
hope that we will continue to show that matter of opinion. I agree with the hon.
free and delightful spirit, which is not member, Mr. Holder-and as that hon.
always returned to us, I am not pre- gentleman represents a colony whose finan-
pared to say that this country should cial interests in this matter are not very
give over rights with respect to rivers in seriously at stake, because, as he says, his
New South Wales when other colonies do colony is about the middle line, I strongly
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reida
Commonwealth of
13.9
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
point to his opinion as one which should that a policy of this kind, as contrasted
impress itself upon the Convention. I be- with a policy which does not interfere in
lieve, as he does, that it is self-evident, such matters, and is therefore substantially
putting figures and tables aside, that in
open, would yield this state of things,
the operation of any tariff applied to the speaking broadly: that given the same
different colonies which might compose number of persons in each of two com-
this federation, for some time—the time munities, in the one community the custom-
doubtful, but the fact certain—for some house would not be prolific, while in the
time the distribution per capita—which other community it would be prolific of
would be a distribution we would all at revenue. These are self-evident facts,
once adopt if we could, because it is so Au Hon. MEMBER :
simple—would be unfair. Now, why should
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The
not the hon. member, Mr. Holder, say that hon. member is quite right; we do.
that is self-evident? I should think the
An Hon. MEMBER : I know it!
representatives from Victoria should be
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : At the
the first to say that it is self-evident.
present time I am taking the view of my
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I ad-
hon. friends. I am accepting the views of
mit it, and I have endeavoured to meet
those who seem to believe that there is no
the right hon. gentleman's difficulty !
difference.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I am
The Hon. J. HENRY : Would not goods
glad that iny right hon. friend has made
this admission. It is a fact that he has
manufactured in Victoria be consumed by
New South Wales after the establishment
always admitted it, and he has always, in
of a uniform tariff ?
a manner which has excited my hearty
recognition, endeavoured to meet the diffi-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : To a
certain extent, no doubt; but to
culty. But it seems that there are others
say
that
who are not sufficiently clear upon this
in a great business community such as this,
point. It should, however, be clear, especi-
accustomed for so many years to do its
business in a certain way, all at once, as
ally to the representatives from Victoria,
and indeed to every man who is a party
if by a stroke of magic, the conditions of
to a high tariff, particularly if his object be
trade will be reversed, is to speak of some-
what is called a protective policy. The object thing which has never happened. These
of high duties, and the boasts which we hear
changes only work out gradually.
concerning them all point to thesame effect; The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Is that
that is, they result in this marvellous position disputed ?
change, that instead of goods coming from The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well, if
abroad they are made in the country which everybody thought as my right hon. friend
is protected. That process has been going does, I do not know that I should have
on for twenty-five years in Victoria, and,
said a word ; but the observations I have
differ as we may about this or that aspect heard during this debate have been quite
of the protective policy, everybody must opposed to his admissions. If it is ad-
admit that with any policy of high duties
mitted that there is a difference a serious
you have that result from the very nature
difference--I have nothing more to say. I
of the case. Whether the result be bought quite admit that the difference would
at too dear a price or not is a matter of gradually, and perhaps readily, disappear. .
opinion, and we do not want to discuss An Hon. MEMBER: The establishment
such matters here. We must all admit of a sliding scale would bring that about !
140
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I con- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It is
fess that in Adelaide I thought I was giving not admitted that a per capita distribution
up a great deal too much; but the addi- would be unfair!
tional light I have obtained since has made The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Not
me believe more in the scheme we arrived eventually ; but we must see that, just as
at in Adelaide. At the same time, I can- our friends the farmers, who, as the hon.
not be insensible to the fact that that member, Mr. Higgins, says, have become
scheme has created no sort of confidence, accustomed to bringing up calves, are seri-
in this colony, at any rate ; that, on the ously exercised about their own particular
contrary, the clear-cut expression of the interests, so there are a number of people
opinions of the two houses of our legis- in all our colonies interested about many
lature is quite against it.
matters; and our failure to find a scheme
which commands general approval being
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No
better scheme has been suggested !
admitted, the effect of laying down a
scheme which would not be accepted as
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No, and
satisfactory by the electors of Australia
the action of the Parliament of New South
would, probably, be fatal to the whole pro-
Wales is a practical admission of that. ject of union. Well, union being our main
Our Parliament does not profess to supply object, we must endeavour to bring the
a better scheme; it makes the suggestion
bill into such a shape that it will com-
that, in view of the fact that no solution
mand the approval of the constituen-
has been discovered by the convention, or
cies of Australia, that being the only
any other method proposed which can be
road to union. I am prepared and I
adopted, it would be infinitely wiser to
really think we can all do so-to leave the
leave the whole matter to the federal par-
whole financial question to the federal par-
liament. That is the effect of the recom- liament. But I do not want this question
mendations of our houses, and I must say
left to the federal parliament in any such
that the necessity of bringing about a
way that whilst all my views are risked
union of the Australian people being
and made uncertain, the views of others
pressed upon me, I am there again prepared
are made certain in advance. I do not
to trust the federal parliament. If we can- call that fair compromise. I ask every
not see our way out of this trouble-and
hon. member, whatever his views, or in-
it is no reproach to us that we cannot, be-
terests, or policy, to follow my example,
cause there is nothing in the world more
or rather I am prepared to follow the ex-
difficult than to appraise, with any degree ample of others, the example of all who
of reasonable certainty, the possible effects
are prepared to trust these financial matters
of a tariff the constituent parts of which to the federal parliament. I must confess
are all unknown--there is nothing more ab-
my strong feeling of doubt as to whether
surd than to attempt to do so. That being the provision limiting the expenditure of
the case, the question of distribution, if we the commonwealth for a short time was
give up the theory of a per capita distribu- not a very good one.
I attach a great
tion, if we admit that it will not work
deal more importance to it than most
fairly-and I think that that is pretty people do. Still, again, I am quite pre-
generally admitted, the extent of the un- pared to bring the bill into a shape which
fairness being very much in dispute-we will command the general approval of the
must adınit that we have no solution which electors and the constituencies. So far as
we can ask the people to adopt.
I can see, that project has not been re-
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
1
Conmonwealth of
141
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ceived with favour. Whilst not yielding those persons, sitting in that parliament,
rashly or inconsiderately to what appears and having the financial interests--indeed,
to be a well-expressed public opinion, I as my hon. friend, Mr. Fraser, suggested,
think that, under existing circumstances, the solvency or insolvency-of the colonies
we should ill-conceive our duty here if it in their hands, it is inconceivable that they
were not our very great desire to give would begin their existence as an Aus-
effect to public opinion in every possible tralian legislative body by a course of
way. Because our duty here is not to pro- finance which would immediately throw all
duce a constitution which will meet with the colonies into difficulties. The situation,
our approval. We have been sent here I think, is inconceivable. If we are not pre-
to perform a different task, to produce a pared to believe that the outcome of this
constitution which will meet with the ap- movement will be a parliament which will
proval of the electors of the various colo- protect the colonies from such obvious dan-
nies. I am prepared, believing that it gers, not to say disaster, then I say that
will be better for the project, to let all we cannot believe in the thing itself.
the fiscal problems go, and to adopt the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
spirit of the amendments suggested by the trouble is that unless you come to some
Legislative Council and the Legislative reasonable arrangement, a large number of
Assembly of this colony, simply conferring persons will have a doubt in the matter
power on the commonwealth to raise re- and will vote against the bill.
venue to pay its expenditure and to dis- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Having
tribute the surplus.
perhaps an equal knowledge—I will not say
The Hon. S. FRASER :
a greater knowledge—of the popular view
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There, with the right hon. member, knowing the
again, our trust in the federal parliament views of Australians and the way in which
comes in. The federal parliament takes Australians take things, I say, without
away from each of the five colonies its hesitation, that I believe this project will
almost sole source of revenue. This is all come to Australian people with infinitely
done in the interests of federal union. It greater force if those who recommend it to
is done because we cannot retain this them show by the constitution they frame
source of taxation and have federal union. that they, at any rate, have confidence in
No stronger obligation under such cir- the machine they have constructed. People
cumstances could rest upon any body of
do not refine in this movement. Frame
hon. gentlemen, no matter what colony your constitution as you will, let it be
they represent, than that of not exposing the most perfect embodiment of human
the constituent parts of the federation to wisdom, there will be here and there a
financial
selfish element of opposition. You can-
The Hon. S. FRASER : Insolvency ! not escape it. It will inevitably face us
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Insol- in this great struggle for federal union, do
vency, for it would be nothing less than what you will. But if I do not misappre-
that, and at the very beginning
hend the genius and the intelligence of
Mr. WISE :
the Australian people, if we show, in the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Those construction of this charter, confidence in
persons who appear in the federal parlia- the future electorates of Australia, it is
ment will be there on the franchise which not at all likely that the electors them-
we provide and will be elected by the men selves will begin by mistrusting their own
whom we know in Australia, and with patriotism and integrity.
L
142
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.1
The Hon. S. FRASER : What is the objec- Treasurer, for instance, has received during
tion to a minimum refund !
the previous year.
He knows the facts of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There, trade. Suppose the colonies had been
I say again, you would, by any such pro- united for twelve months, the federal
position, in view of the extremely diver- treasurer would have twelve months' facts
gent situation of the different colonies, of the united position before him. He
nullify the advantages which a free hand would know the obligations of the Vic-
would give to the federal parliament. We torian Treasurer as well as did the Vic-
must begin by believing that that body, torian Treasurer himself. I should not
representing not this little clique, or that think the Victorian Treasurer would leave
little clique, but representative of a great him in any state of uncertainty on that
national constituency, coming for the first point any more than would the Treasurer
time into the home of Australian nation- of
any other colony. So, with the latest
ality—that these men may be safely trusted facts before him, the construction of a
to maintain the financial position of each tariff which would at once return a suffici-
of these colonies as one of the most sacred ent amount to, say, the Victorian Treasurer,
things committed to their charge. My fear or to any other Treasurer, would not be a
would be—and I confess it that in an difficult task. The amount might vary, as
anxiety to meet the varying circumstances estimates ; but it would be substantially
of the different colonies, there might be, near the mark—so near as to leave no
perhaps, too great a sum taken from the colony exposed to any serious difficulty.
people in the shape of federal taxation. The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It is
There are difficulties, look which way you the mode of distributing the surplus which
will. There are uncertainties, look which is the difficulty !
way you will. But, looking at the fact that The Right Hon. G. H. REID : There
we are composed of gentlemen representa- again the advantage of time, of union,
tive of so many widely divergent views as of further experience, of reflection, will all
to what the policy of this future parlia- be on the side of the federal parliament.
ment should be, we ought, I think, to enter The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : What
now into a tacit understanding that the is to happen in the meantime ?
spirit in which we will approach these The Right Hon. G. H. REID: In the
difficulties is this : when we cannot feel meantime, until the uniform tariff comes
sure that we are solving them properly in into operation, the financial situation is
the interests of the constitution, we will free.
hesitate to put there provisions which will The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : But
be very difficult of alteration, and which what is to happen after the uniform tariff
may work, not for good, but for ill to the has come into operation and while experi-
whole of the colonies.
ence is being gained ?
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
federal parliament could not devise a satis- a point to which I have already referred
factory scheme until the uniform tariff had to some extent. During that time the
been in operation for several years, and federal parliament must arrive at some
what would be done in the meantime! mode of distribution which will be equit-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The able.
difficulties disappear at once in the federal Mr. WALKER : By book-keeping!
parliament. The federal treasurer knows The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Now,
exactly the amount which the Victorian my hon.friend, with the voice of the federal
t
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
143
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
parliament in his throat, says book-keeping. of much popular agitation, huge personal
I do not presume to know what the voice of and pecuniary interests will be sleepless
the federal parliament will be. I say that and active, there will be, above all these
that body of men, elected by the people of mercenary and somewhat humiliating cir-
Australia under federal conditions, will be cumstances, in the hearts and minds of the
infinitely better qualified to bring about people, a deep desire, a great anxiety, that
an equitable solution than we shall, be they should return men whose policy would
cause our solution, remember, is one which be for the good of the commonwealth. All
is stamped in letters of iron, whereas their these things when they come down to the
solution would be capable of alteration. form of a precise tariff may lead to keen dis-
If the federal parliament, in working out appointment in this colony or that. Some
the solution as it thinks equitably, finds particular native industry, highly thought
from experience, which will be speedy, that of there as a great national industry, might
the result is not equitable, it can anend happen in their opinion to be ruthlessly
what it bas done without appeal to the disregarded. Other duties may seem, per-
arduous and very uncertain process of haps, in the estimation of the representa-
amending the constitution. I leave all tives of another part of Australia to be
these matters in that way. I confess I
I confess I fraught with disaster to the whole com-
feel some anxiety about this federal tariff. monwealth, embodying principles which
I should have infinitely preferred that in they utterly abhor. All these grave influ-
this constitution there should have been a ences, conscientious most of them, may
definite time stated within which that lead to a state of difficulty in the federal
federal tariff should be in force.
legislature. If there was an escape from
An Hon. MEMBER: What is the penalty? it something might be done. We might
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The find ourselves with free-trade in New
penalty is an obvious one, inasmuch as we South Wales, across the border, and no
have, in this constitution, a supreme court where else for an indefinitetime; but again,
of the federation. If any tariff were passed I will stand true to the position I have
violating the terms of the constitution, taken up in this matter. I say again it is
any importer, by taking proper proceedings, inconceivable that this federation will shirk
could recover what he had been called upon its obvious national duty in that way. The
to pay under an invalid act. That is the struggle may be a bitter one.
simple and effectual remedy. When we re- be many disappointments, but I feel con-
member that we put a stipulation in the vinced the federal parliament would loyally
constitution that the federal tariff shall be and faithfully discharge its duty, not so
settled in two years, when we know that soon as we might like, but, at any rate,
the federal parliament will begin with the without any great delay. I say in a word
knowledge that, if the work is not done that many of our difficulties will disappear
in two years, the whole financial fabric will if we all agree to confide the different in-
disappear-that their own salaries will not terests of our localities to the wisdom and
be payable--it is probable that the funds justice of this great parliament represent-
would be there when the due date arrived. ing the Australian people.
My fear is this: We make all our sacrifices Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [3.54]:
for federal union; afterinfinite struggle and I think I may say that there is no mem-
vicissitude we see ourselves at last united. ber of this Convention who does not feel
The federal tariff is a subject which will deeply impressed with the broad and en-
excite intense interest. It will be a time couraging speech which we have just
There may
144
Austrctic Bill.
Commonwealth of
17 SEPT., 1897.]
listened to from the Premier of New South of the continent brought under the control
Wales. The purpose of this discussion has of the central government. It always ap-
been in order that the committee on fin- peared to me to be one of those matters
ance which has been appointed should be which came well within the category of
enabled to gather the sentiments of the federal control. The railways in these coun-
Convention, with the view of being assisted tries affect the entire body of the people
in the performance of its daties. I am certainly as much as do the posts and tele-
sure that if my hon. friend, Sir Philip graphs. We have not hesitated to bring
Fysh, instead of having addressed the Com- under the control of the federal parlia-
mittee yesterday, had addressed it to-day, ment the posts and telegraphs, and, on
he would not have expressed the opinion substantially the same principle, if the
that this debate would be really a beating conditions were practicable-I admit that
of the air. He would have come to the there are some conditions which make
conclusion, which I maintain is foremost it impracticable at the present time—the
in the minds of all of us, that the results railways of the states, which will be the
both as regards the assistance to the com- railways of the commonwealth, ought to
mittee and as regards the advancement of be under federal control. At the same
the great purpose which we have all at time, sir, I admit that at present it is vain
heart, that is, the union of Australia, must to discuss the federalisation of the railways.
be immense. For my part, at the com- There is a strong feeling in, perhaps, all of
mencement of the discussion I did not feel the colonies, more or less, that the railways
particularly sanguine as to the possibility are matters which concern more imme-
of time being saved. Now I have arrived diately the states. At any rate, I recognise
at exactly the opposite conclusion. Al- this fact: that there is a duty, a respon-
though it may be that the Finance Com- sibility on the government of a state, to
mittee in some respects will be placed in a develop its own distant country, and to pro-
position of difficulty because of no resolu- vide facilities for the people located in its
tion being adopted by the Committee for distant parts getting their produce to market
theirguidance,still.they will feel that under- in the quickest possible way. And I recog-
lying every criticism and surrounding every nise the fact that with that state of things
remark in the debate has been the gradual existing it will be difficult, perhaps, for
accretion of the sentiment that the federal any state to reconcile itself to handing
parliament which we are about to create over the control of the railways, constructed
under this great instrument of self-govern- for the purpose of development in that
ment will be the best for accomplishing sense, entirely to the central authority. I
the purpose we have in view, and of do not share the apprehension on that
extricating us in a just and fair manner score, because I believe that the same
from all the difficulties that surround this principles to which my right hon. and
financial problem. Under these circum- learned friend, Mr. Reid, has referred
stances, the remarks which I shall offer to in relation to the adjustment of the finan-
the Committee will be very few. In the cial trouble, will equally apply to the
first place, I should like to say a word in control and management of the railways.
regard to the question of the railways. I I do not believe that the federal authority,
have always taken the view that if it were for instance, in dealing with the railways
practicable to accomplish the purpose the in any particular state, would forget the
railways ought to be federated. I should principles which guided their construction.
myself like to see the whole of the railways I do not believe for a moment that the
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
145
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
federal authority would seek to so interfere natural outlet of the goods of any part of
with rates as to do an injustice to one colony the commonwealth, then, so far as my
and give a special advantage to another. judgment goes, it is impossible to take
But, at the same time, seeing that it any exception to the method prescribed of
would not be practicable to federate the establishing an inter-state commission with
railways at the present moment, the only the view of bringing about that result.
question is what can be adopted as a Either hand over the railways entirely to
middle course in order to prevent some the commonwealth or establish an inter-
of those mischiefs as I think them, to state commission with the view of regulating
which my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, in the railway tariffs so as to prevent what we
his exceedingly instructive speech called all desire to prevent—an advantage being
attention this afternoon. My hon. and given to one port over another. Now, in-
learned friend, Mr. O'Connor, dealt at some stances have been given of that, and I do
length with this point as to the inter-state not propose to go into detail except, to say
commission. It seemed to me that his this : My hon. friend points out that, of
view was one of power to the federal
course, any particular state regulates its
parliament rather than one of substance rates, according to length of haulage, and
affecting the principle of control which
from a variety of other circumstances in-
should be exercised over the railways. cidental it may be, as I have said, to the
He seemed to me to say that he con- development of a distant part of the coun-
sidered that clause 95, which provides that try. All these things would be taken
preference shall not be given by any law equally into consideration, I apprehend,
or regulation of commerce to the ports of by an inter-state commission. Surely if
one state over the ports of another state, you establish a tribunal of that kind you
sufficiently gave to the federal parliament do not limit the functions it has to dis-
power to impose regulations and to pass charge within the scope of the powers con-
laws, and that, therefore, the provisions ferred upon it. You give that body the
embodied in clauses 96 and 97 were, as I same judicial control as you would expect
understood him, superfluous. If that is to be exercised by a corresponding power
the only point of attack which he makes, in the state, if the railways were left to
to my mind it is not a very serious one, the state. That, at any rate, is my concep-
because he concedes, as I understood him, tion of what this inter-state commission
that it is essential that there should be a would be, and what it would do.
control over the railways of the common- The Hon. C. H. GRANT: The federal
wealth to prevent preferences being given management would do exactly the same !
so as to take the goods of one portion of the Mr. SYMON: And the federal man-
country to an outlet to which in the ordi- agement would do exactly the same. The
nary course of things they would not travel. difficulty is that we are bound to recog-
That, I think I may say to my hon. and nise that there is a very strong feeling in
learned friend, is all we wish. It may be some of the colonies against a transfer of
that if the existing state of things were the railways bodily to the federation.
permitted, what would be a differential
Recognising that fact, the point then is,
rate in New South Wales would be con- how are we best to prevent what are de-
strued into a preferential rate in Victoria. scribed as cut-throat railway tariffs, not
That would be, to my mind, exceedingly with the view of benefiting the producer
unjust. If the object is to have a series employing the railways as his carriers, but
of rates which will not interfere with the with the view of injuring one state for the
146
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.1 ]
benefit of another. To my mind, if that whole of its course, so far as it is now
state of things is to continue, federation, navigable, for all time. We do not wish
the blessings of union, the harmony which that interfered with or lessened. I hope
we expect to result, would largely disap- the people of New South Wales will be-
pear, and we should have each constituent lieve that we have not the slightest desire
part of the commonwealth watching every to interfere with that great public dbject
state in connection with the railway tariffs, they have in view in the development of
and in a constant condition of irritation their country by means of irrigation. At
with regard to the progress of trade. It least, personally, I have not. I agree that
does seem to me, as my right hon. friend in a country like this it is impossible to
has just declared, that a dominating feature treat waterways on the same footing as
of this federation is freedom of trade, free- in other countries, where waterways and
dom of intercourse, but I disagree with rivers are abundant, and we must all feel
him to this extent, that it appears to me that to deprive New South Wales of the
that the barriers you erect in connection particular dealing with the affluents of the
with your railway tariffs are now, and will navigable river Murray for the purposes
in the future, be just as troublesome and of irrigation would be to take away from
just as detrimental to that perfect freedom
them that control which in eastern coun-
of trade which you wish to secure as are tries was sought to be exercised over the
your border custom-houses, and your border wells of water about which there is so much
duties.
dispute recorded in Holy Writ.
An Hon. MEMBER: It will be a delu- Mr. GLYNN : If you let them carry out
sion altogether!
their schemes you will have to navigate
Mr. SYMON : Therefore, I hope that on dry land!
if we sweep out from the measure as Mr. SYMON: I do not agree with my
drafted in Adelaide the inter-state com- hon. friend as to that. My experience,
mission, we shall be able to introduce which is not very extensive, but is useful
something instead that will be equally as far as it goes, is that when you improve
effectual for the purpose. Just one word as streams, in themselves originally small, for
to the rivers. That is a matter which con- the purposes of irrigation, you develop
cerns the colony I have the honor to come very often, if not generally, the water
from very intimately indeed. The same supply. You may utilise streams in the
principles, perhaps with intensified force, way
I have indicated and still preserve
that apply in regard to the railways apply the navigability of the main river, where
also to the rivers. But I gathered to-day it is navigable now. At any rate, I believe
a considerable crumb of comfort from my that is the case, and I am not prepared to
hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, who told us that ask the people of New South Wales to
he-and, I understood him, the people of yield up their control for the purposes of
New South Wales—hare no desire to so irrigation of the internal rivers of their
use the river Murray as to prevent its present system. It may be that the federal
being navigable. Now that embodies the parliament, under the powers embodied in
contention which I am disposed to fight for. clause 95, to which my hon. friend, Mr.
An Hon. MEMBER: That is all we want! O'Connor, referred, may be enabled to
Mr. SYMON: All we seek is that the deal with this question should difficul-
great stream of the Murray, which is not ties and trouble arise. But at present my
only a channel of communication, but a view is that the arrangement made in the
vehicle of traffic, shall be open along the Convention at Adelaide will be ample for
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
147
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the purposes of South Australia-for the Mr. SYMON: If my right hon. friend
purposes of all Australia, because all Aus- were treasurer of the federal government
tralia is interested in keeping the Murray he would take care not to intimate the
navigable. I believe it will be sufficient for intention until he had first negotiated.
that purpose, and I hope that to that extent, The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
at any rate, it will be preserved. I should moment you started to negotiate the rise
like to say also in regard to the taking over
would take place!
of the debts of the various colonies, that Mr. SYMON : My hon. friend would,
I hope the provision in the bill will be no doubt, be astute enough and careful
allowed to remain as it is in other words, enough in the interests of the federal go-
that it will be permissive to the common- vernment to make adequate arrangements
wealth to take over the debts. If I had in that respect, and I am satisfied that my
entertained any doubt on that subject be- hon, friend, Mr. Holder, would be per-
fore, it would have been removed by the fectly able to devise some method of secur-
very excellent and convincing speech made ing-Iwould not say all the benefit—but
yesterday afternoon by my hon. friend, some of the benefit for the federal ex-
Mr. Holder. That the debts ought to be chequer.
taken over some time or other, and that The Right Hon. Sir G. TCRNER : He
they will be taken over, probably, goes
would not be astute enough for the English
without saying. But if we were to em- capitalists !
body in this constitution an obligation on Mr. SYMON: We can only face the
the part of the federal parliament to take difficulty when it arises.
difficulty when it arises. Without prog-
over the debts, it would at once send our nosticating on which side the advantage
stock to a premiun, and it would paralyse will be, of the two methods the better is
the hands of the federation in making that advocated by my hon. friend, Mr.
terms for an advantageous conversion. Holder, to leave it permissive rather than to
Mr. GLYNN :
make it obligatory on the federal authority.
Mr. SYMON: We hope to convert In regard to the financial adjustment and
before the stock expires, and I think we the regulation of trade, undoubtedly that
may be able to do it if-to use the word
is the most important part of what may
of Mr. Higgins in connection with another
be described as the commercial bargain
matter—we have a weapon in our hands, or
into which we are entering, and I would
a lever which we can use for that purpose.
only say, after the view which has evi-
The Hon. J. HENRY : How would the
dently been adopted by the Convention as
hon. gentleruan set about it?
to the desirability of leaving the question
Mr. SYMON: I would set about it in
to be dealt with by the federal parlia-
the way my hon. friend, Mr. Holder, indi-
cated yesterday. I think he put it this
ment, that the principle it seems to me is
way: If you make it obligatory, your stock
to give back to each state as nearly as pos-
immediately increases in value, and you
sible what it contributes, less its propor-
have nothing to offer to the stockholder
tion of the federal expenditure. That
in order to induce him to give up his stock
seems to me to be really the guiding prin-
and allow it to be converted.
ciple of the whole subject. If each state
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The contributed equally per head there would
moment it was known that the federal be no difficulty whatever; but that is not
parliament intended to convert, up would so, and I think we ought to bear in mind
go the stock !
that it never will be so. I do not believe
The Hon. J. HENRY: Exactly !
you will have an equal contribution per
148
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
head from the states of the common- then they tell you that it is like the La-
wealth any more than you will have it mentations of Jeremiah, that it is all to
from towns, parishes, or other districts. A the injury of some particular state or some
great deal of misapprehension has arisen, particular set of taxpayers. Therefore, I
and a great deal of what I regard as very am glad, as I think we must all be glad,
unjust criticism has been cast upon the that. the feeling is crystallising in favour of
labours of the Convention in Adelaide, what was really adopted by the bill of 1891
because that fact has been forgotten. It -the ultimate disposal of this question by
is said that so much per head will be pro- the federal parliainent; and as the Premier
duced by New South Wales, so much by of New South Wales has said, to what better
Victoria, and so much by South Australia. authority can we possibly commit that
These inequalities must, more or less, al- task, -a body elected on the widest fran-
ways exist, and all we can hope to arrive chise available, a body which will be as
at is a fair approximation. The object patriotic as any states parliament will be,
is really twofold. First, to get as near a body which will be certainly as compe-
as you can, if you are to settle it in tent as any other legislative assemblage
the constitution, or to leave it to the can possibly be, and concerned not only for
federal parliament with all the knowledge the interest of the entire commonwealth-
which will be at its disposal, with the data the union of all the states—but concerned
by which it may be guided in order to to see that in securing that general welfare
finally settle it. I have always been op- the interests of no individual state are sac-
posed to having it settled in the consti- rificed? My belief is that we shall have in
tution, and for this reason : It seems to the federal parliament a legislative ma-
me that we are simply going blind. chine that will be actuated by the highest
Whatever effort we may make to arrive possible principles, and that it will not be
at some approximation we are dealing with open to the charge that it will be likely to
matters of prophecy, and not matters of view any particular section of the Common-
fact. No human being—I do not believe wealth with more favour than another. I
even an archangel from heaven-could at would remind hon. members that, in the
this moment introduce into the constitu- bill of 1891, which was subjected to a great
tion which it is our mission to frame. a deal of criticism, and was condemned by
provision which would do justice all round its author-Sir Samuel Griffith--with very
upon the financial question.
trenchant criticism, really the power of
The Hon. J. HENRY : Havé archangels disposing of this matter was left in the
any speciality in regard to finance ? hands of the federal parliament. We
Mr. SYMON: I have no doubt my know the difficulties which have arisen.
hon. friend is not merely a great autho- We know that the best minds and the
rity in regard to finance, but he has great best experience have been brought to bear
qualifications for being an archangel as upon this question. We know, as I
weil. Even a combination of the two would lave said, that in the bill of 1891 we
not produce in this constitution an arrange- had provisions that for the moment were
ment in respect of finance which would give considered admirable. They were
satisfaction to the people of the colonies. It demned. We know that in Adelaide
would, at any rate, give, as it has given we had a Finance Committee which sat
before, the greatest stimulus and the widest for a good while thoroughly investi-
scope for all kinds of criticism. But that is gating the subject, and the proposals they
about all. If it is a matter of prophecy, brought forward were allowed to slip under
con-
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
149
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
*
the table and were heard of no more. wish to avoid, namely, entering upon the
Then came a reference of the Treasurers, details of a financial inquiry by the light
and we find that throughout the whole of what a particular customs tariff may
Australia great denunciations were heard produce. I therefore think, with the Pre-
of these proposals, although I am bound mier of New South Wales, that we should
to say that, looking at the sliding scale in leave the matter to the federal parliament.
the light which Mr. Holder has cast upon A minimum would undoubtedly have the
it in his pamphlet, and also in his speech effect of being an encouragement. It might
yesterday, I am inclined to think that if remove difficulties from the path of some
we were to deal with the matter now, the who may feel some besitation as to the
sliding scale system is about as near an state of the particular finances of their own
approximation to what is fair and just as colony ; but if we have confidence--con-
we could possibly meet with.
fidence in the machine as my right hon.
Mr. WALKER: Extending over twenty friend put it—then I think we may fairly
years!
say to the people of the colonies from which
Mr. SYMON: I do not say anything we come, “We recommend you to trust
about that. The extent of its duration is the federal parliament throughout, not only
another matter. Whether it is five or ten to deal with particular items-maximums
years is a matter which I hope the experts or minimums--but to deal with the whole
on the Finance Committee will be able to question, so that each colony shall be fairly
settle. No doubt if it is adopted in the served, and that each colony's finances shall
constitution something of that kind will be fairly maintained.” I do not propose
probably be secured. At the same time, to occupy one moment longer upon some
we are not able to escape from the book- other aspects of the matter which have
keeping system which for some period or presented themselves, and which are of
other must be adopted. But the vice of all considerable difficulty, because the main
these proposals and schemes is that it is question is really whether we shall or shall
not so much in the details of them as it not remit this adjustment of the finances
is in the inherent impossibility of settling to the federal parliament; and if we con-
prophetically a practical question which de- vey that intimation, as I think, it has been
pends on data not now available, and which very generally conveyed, to the Finance
afterwards will have to be obtained. Pass- Committee, it will give them a basis upon
ing over a number of other matters with which to work, and a beacon by which
which it seems unnecessary to deal, I
they may proceed. I will only say this
wish to say a word as to the suggestion further : It is a mistake to be always on
of the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, as to
the look out for a " lion in the path.”
the establishment and payment over of a We are very apt to imagine that we see
minimum. I disapprove of that altogether. a "lion in the path” when no lion exists.
If we trust the federal parliament we
No one can tell what particular difficulties
should trust it all in all. If we are to en-
may crop up; and no one can deny that
deavour to fix.a minimum, we are met on
there are difficulties to be overcome-great
the very threshold with the anoinalous posi- difficulties; but, if any recommendation
tion of Western Australia. We all agree
would be of influence, as I have no doubt
that Western Australia must receive some it would be, what I would say to the
special treatment; but if we are to deal Finance Committee is, if there is a diffi-
with that special treatment now, we shall culty--if there is a nettle, let them grasp
be entangled in the very thing which we it firmly—let them not be afraid to meet
M
150
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
.
the difficulties that lie before them; and if wealth into being. But I have all along
they do grasp the nettle firmly, then, out felt—and any one familiar with the history
of it, I am quite sure that we, in this con- of my own colony for the last few years
vention, with their help, will be able to must also have felt, especially if he had
pluck the flower of safety and success. been in my own position, labouring in a
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT (Western small minority on behalf of federation and
Australia) [4:32]: At this late hour of against a great body of doubt and misgiv-
the Convention's proceedings to-day I do ing—that unless we could give a satis-
not propose to trouble hon. members with factory reply with regard to the financial
very many remarks ; but, as the tone of bearings between Western Australia and
the debate for the last two or three hours the commonwealth, we might as well spare
has largely occupied itself with local ques- ourselves the trouble of appealing to our
tions by which I mean questions not people. Of course the main difficulty in
peculiar to any one state, but which in- the matter arises from the fact—and it can-
volve the interests, not of the whole com- not be divorced froin it that the one
monwealth, but of two or three states- source of unencumbered revenuem by which
perhaps you, sir, will allow mo a few I mean revenue, no part of which is ap-
minutes to speak generally on the question, plied in payment for services rendered—is
and afterwards to put a few aspects of the customs. The customs, by the terms
the matter from the Western Australian and implication, must pass into the hands
point of view, wbich, if they have been of the federal authority. It is its natural
alluded to, have only been alluded to in revenue. But it so happens that the
general terms, and not specifically. I transfer of that revenue to the federal
think that, in the first instance, I may authority is attended with three grave con-
congratulate the Committee on the course tingencies, every one of which represents
taken in putting into the forefront this a vast body of difficulties that would have
financial difficulty. The feeling that has to be surmounted before the commonwealth
been evinced, and the expressions which is brought into operation. The first is that
have been called forth in the course of the the customs must inevitably bring in a
debate, must very materially shorten the revenue immensely greater than the com-
work of the Convention in arriving at its monwealth will require for its own pur-
desired conclusion. Had indeed this mat- poses. That would have a natural tendency
ter been as fully and freely debated in the to create extravagance—to cause careless-
Adelaide Convention, with the materials ness and indifference on the part of the
which this Committee possesses at present, financial authorities of the commonwealth
I believe that our work at this adjourned --unless they were very closely looked after.
Convention would have been so shortened. The second point is that if it interferes in
would have been so satisfactory in every way, a fundamental degree and we cannot
that we might have been prepared to take close our eyes to the fact that it must in-
a poll of the people before many months terfere in a fundamental degree—with the
are over. I take it that the main difficulty fiscal policy of one of the largest states
now in our path is this financial question. of the commonwealth, the probability-I
The arrangement of the relations between hope not the certainty—is that it would
the states and the cominonwealth has never lead more or less to the reversal of that
seemed to me to be of such a formidable policy. That is the second difficulty which
character as to threaten a suspension of is contingent on the appropriation of the
the work required to bring the common- customs by the federal power. The third
[Mr. Syron.
Commonwealth of
151
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
For so
is that it robs the states—or perhaps & commonwealth than anything I have come
milder phrase would be that it deprives the across either in my reading or experience
states—in all cases of their chief weapon during the last three months. If we settle
for collecting money. It takes away from this matter satisfactorily to the states, to
them that source to which they are all our people, and to Australia as a whole,
looking for development, and even for the we need have no ground of alarm for
payment of their way. In view of those the future of the commonwealth.
three facts, it was inevitable that the ques- far as we can see there is no question
tion of seizing the customs should, the more which will impose a greater strain upon
it was looked into, constitute itself the the capacity, the good feeling, and the pat-
main difficulty to be solved before we could riotism of the people of the commonwealth
see our way clear to establish this federa-
than the financial question. I have lis-
tion. We must remember further that it is tened to nearly everything which has been
also complicated by this consideration that said during this debate—I have not been
we are not now engaged on the construc- absent many minutes at any time from
tion of a tariff; but this financial question the sittings of the Committee—with regard
is to be made part of our constitutional to the materials at our disposal for form-
bonds. We are not looking so much for ing a judgment in regard to this question.
revenue as for conditions of union ; in I have heard statistics attacked ; I have
other words, finance is to be made a part heard them defended ; but the doubt has
of the constitution of the commonwealth. never left my mind that we have not sufifi-
There is yet an additional difficulty—that cient figures in our hands to enable us to
is, that there is practically no tax at the lay down hard and fast lines in regard to
disposal of the commonwealth, so far as the future financial policy of the common-
we can see, excepting the customs; for it so wealth. In other words, we have no ma-
happens that in the forty years of nation- terials so assured and so reliable that we
hood among the various Australian colonies could take it upon ourselves to crystallise
they have been exploring all the fields of them into a part of the constitution. The
taxation, and, so far as I know, have occu- figures which we have tell us a great deal
pied them all all that are known to us and about the past, something about the pre-
our fellow-citizens in the United Kingdom sent, and nothing at all about the future. .
---with the exception of certain special taxes We must remember that all the difficulty
which are imposed on luxuries—on wbat lies in the uncertainty of the future. We
are commonly called aristocratic luxuries. have nothing before us now which leads
They have gone beyond that. Not only us to do anything that affords the smallest
have they explored and occupied all the indication in our own fancies, the smallest
fields of taxation ; but, because of various conjectures as to what will happen when
exigencies—usually depression at one time we have such new factors introduced into
or another—they have loaded up all the the situation as a wholly unknown tariff.
colonies with as much taxation as they will So far we have been able to refer only
bear. There is neither room for a new tax to the tariffs now in existence. We do
nor margin to increase the present taxes.
not know what would be the course of
Therefore we are driven back upon customs
intercolonial commerce under a uniform
duties, and we have to face the difficulties tariff. We cannot forget that behind all
as best we may. The spirit in which they these unknown factors there remains the
have been faced to-day to my mind bodes constitution of the commonwealth, whose
better for the early inauguration of the inevitable operation—I had almost said
152
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
57 SEPT., 1897. ]
whose principal object and intention is surplus shall be returned to the various
to change the whole course of the rela- states in proportion to the amounts col-
tions between the states in regard to trade, lected from them, which again involves the
production, and expenditure. There is a perpetual maintenance of border custom-
general feeling growing up, and once it houses, if the arrangement is to be made
is started it seems to be almost inevitable effectual and satisfactory, and which stands
that it should grow, that the conditions condemned for that very reason. Conse-
are too great for us to master with the ma- quently, the proposal made in the Adelaide
terials at hand. There is a growing feeling Convention that the surpluses should be
that a federal parliament will be in a better returned to the states, per capita, in pro-
position to deal with these difficulties as portion to population, was adopted in the
they arise, and when they arise. In fact, bill. I would ask the attention of the
the question is not now whether this and Committee for one moment to the probable
a number of other matters should be left operation of such a clause in regard to
to the federal parliament, but how much the colony of Western Australia. It must
of this and other matters is to be left to be rewembered that if Western Australia
the federal parliament. It seems to be comes into the union, however late she
perfectly inevitable that it should be so. inay come in, she must come in under this
Take one clause of the bill, for example; clause, unless it be altered in the man-
the final and completing clause of the ner I have indicated, a most unlikely pro
financial system worked out by the Con- ceeding, because it is evident thata majority
vention at Adelaide. After making an of the states could, if they pleased, block
interim arrangement for seven years, it is any attempt to alter the clause, even though
there declared that
a majority of the people of the common-
after the expiration of five years from the im-
wealth were determined to have it revised.
position of uniform duties of customs, each state The hon. member, Sir Philip Fysh, has
shall be deemed to contribute to the revenue an calculated that, if the clause were in
equal sum per head of its population, and all
operation, Western Australia would lose
surplus revenue over the expenditure of the com-
monwealth shall be distributed month by month
£659,090 in the first few years, and that
among the several states in proportion to the
after the interim arrangement had ex-
numbers of their people as shown by the latest pired we should lose £613,894 annually.
statistics of the commonwealth.
I come now to a matter I understand
Probably by a slip more than anything better, the calculations made by our own
else, or possibly with a view to placing it Government Statist. He declares that
there for discussion, this clause was made during the year 1898–9 we should lose
a binding part of the constitution. If the £386,360. That is a serious loss; but in
constitution were accepted, this provision the next year, 1899–1900, we should lose
could only be altered by adopting the de- £411,847.
signedly protracted and cumbrous course An Hon. MEMBER: That will be the
of sending the proposed amendment to the first year of the operation of the uniform
federal parliament, and afterwards to the tariff !
people of the states. Now it is quite The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Yes. He
obvious that if a provision of this kind is arrives at these figures largely by deduct-
tio be registered in the constitution, and is ing the loss of intercolonial customs. The
to be made part of the Commonwealth chief loss would be due to the cessation of
Bill, there are only two ways in which it the collection of customs upon intercolonial
can be done. One is to declare that the imports. In the year 1900–1, the loss
[The Hon. J. W. Hackett.
Commonwealth of
153
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
would amount to £433,975; in the year Australia. It must not be forgotten either
1901-2, to £452,560; in the year 1902–3, that we have no excise, and as our customs
to £466,978; in the year 1903–4, to in most cases quadruple the normal cus-
£621,122 ; and in the year 1904–5, to toms rates of the rest of Australia, it is
£652,280.
fair to take for our excise about double
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : That is all
the average excise. That being about
upon the assumption that the present ab-
2s. 6d., if we take it at 5s. a head, that will
normal conditions continue !
be a still further contribution to the federal
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : The figures are
treasury which will have to be returned ;
so that, the more you look at it, the more
only hypothetical !
serious the prospect becomes, so far as
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT : They are
Western Australia is concerned. Let us
accurately hypothetical. It is simply out of
now take the other side. We have ex-
the question that we could join under any pended very little in defences. New South
system which involves a per capita return, Wales and Victoria have expended money
excepting, of course, for a limited experi- liberally in this direction. We have not
mental period. Buteven these figures hardly had the means to expend, nor have we had
represent the true position of Western Aus- the opportunity to expend them. No doubt,
tralia with regard to federation. Those that in time to come, we shall rival the other
have been laid upon the table by the Go- colonies in an extravagant expenditure in
vernment Statistician of New South Wales this respect; but, as matters stand at pre-
take some important matters into con- sent, the defence bill in New South Wales
sideration. Now, the contribution for ser- and Victoria stands at about 4s. per head
vices of which we should be relieved, the of the population, while our defence bill
payment for services rendered, is set down is only about 2s. per head. There is not
at £158,000 in the papers distributed the slightest doubt that something like an
among hon. members a couple of days ago equality will have to be established in that
—that is, about £1 per head. It is mani- direction if Western Australia is to be
fest that that is extravagant, and that satisfied and is to be defended. In fact,
later on it will have to be reduced. It is it is more than likely that the expendi-
out of all proportion to the amounts con- ture per head for defences will be larger
tributed by the other colonies. Take, for ex- than that per capita of the other colonies
ample, Tasmania, which has about the same owing to the vast extent of territory to be
population that we have. The amount of defended. The coast-line virtually com-
expenditure in respect of the services of mands three seas, north, west, and south.
which she would be relieved would be There is another matter. Take the ocean
£33,000, or about 4s. per head, as against lighthouses. New South Wales, with be-
£1
per head in Western Australia. In the tween 700 and 800 miles of coast-line, ex-
case of South Australia, which has just pends a sum of £16,000 a year on light-
about double our population, the amount of houses. According to the latest particulars
expenditure in respect of services of which which I have been able to obtain, in our
she would be relieved would be £41,500, own colony of Western Australia the sum
or about 2s. per head, as against £1 in the expended per annum is £3,000 upon a
case of Western Australia. Now, adjust- coast-line 3,000 miles in length. Now,
ments of that kind will have to be made these facts emphasise the importance of
all along the line, if a fair view is to be us from this western colony, not only
presented of the position of Western looking closely into this financial question,
N
!
154
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[7 SEPT., 1897.]
but doing all that we can to impress upon articles, and the year after on sixty-seven
the Convention the great inequalities of articles altogether on nearly ninety
the position of that colony as compared articles.
with the rest of the colonies. In view of Mr. HIGGINS : There has been a change
all these facts, I am afraid I cannot agree within the last two years !
with my right hon, friend, Sir John For-
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Yes.
rest, that Western Australia does not need
Most of those articles are not single articles,
exceptional treatment. It is unquestion-
but groups of commodities. In fact, as it
ably the case. Either we must compel the
stands now, out of a total import value of
rest of Australia to accept the conditions
£6,500,000 at the very least £2,500,000
applicable to us, and in the highest degree
worth of goods come in free of duty.
unjust and injurious to all or nearly all
An Hon. MEMBER : How much of these
the other states, or we shall have to accept imports come from the other parts of
conditions which will be absolutely ruin-
Australia?
ous to ourselves. Indeed, it appears to me
The Hon. J. W.HACKETT: £3,000,000,
that if a common rule is to belaid down, we
shall have to stand out of the common-
and I would point out that that will be
very largely diminished within a very short
wealthuntil we can make terms under that
time, because it consists mostly of farm
clause of the constitution which enables the
produce, and in three or four years we
commonwealth to bargain with a statein re-
shall be able to produce all we want in
gard to the conditions of its admission. We
that respect.
are abnormal from first to last. The hon.
Mr. WALKER: Without protection?
member, Mr. Higgins, referred to our
tariff. The hon. member did not pursue
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Yes ; we
the argument; but, if he intended to show havenoprotection,exceptsmall duties levied
the abnormal conditions we stand in, I
on food, and the Right Hon. Sir John For-
would take the opportunity of correcting rest will bear me out in saying that they are
him in regard to several points, especially left as much for the purpose of revenue as
as they concern the honor of those who are for protection. It is true that our cus-
interested in the Government of the coun-
toms revenue now is £7 15s. per head.
try, which has endeavoured to make the That is thoroughly anomalous, and a be-
burden of taxation on the people as light lief has been expressed all round the Com-
as possible, insomuch that at the present mittee that that amount will diminish to
time we stand in the position of the most something approaching £2 per head, which
lightly - taxed colony in the Australian is the average for the whole of Australia.
group. We have no direct taxation. what- But we have always been abnormal in that
ever, excepting death duties on a limited respect. What the reason is I cannot say.
scale. We have no property, income, or
It may be that in a thinly-peopled country,
land tax ; and, if you measure our tariff possessing large productive resources, there
by the rest of the Australian tariffs in suc-
is a smaller number of unproductive in-
cession we come out at the bottom, New
habitants than in the more densely-popu-
South Wales only excepted. With regard lated colonies. Ever since I have known
to the number of articles, the hon. member the colony, since 1886, the customs revenue
will find that we stand lower, with the per head has never fallen below £4, and it
single exception of New South Wales, than has exceeded £5 even in years when gold
all the other colonies. The year before
was never heard or dreamt of.
last we remitted taxation on twenty-one Mr. SOLOMON : Under a bigher tariff !
[The Hon. J. 1. Hackett.
Commonwealth Bill.
[7 SEPT., 1897.] Federation of the Railways. 155
Australia Bill.
a.m.
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Under I have the most implicit confidence that
a higher tariff than we have now, butunder when the time comes, even if we stand out
a lower tariff than we have had.
for a time, the terms that an Australian
Mr. SOLOMON: The male adults in West- state will ask will be fair ones, and that
ern Australia are seven-tenths of the popu- the terms that an Australian parliament
lation, and they earn £4 per week as offers will not be less fair,
against £2 per week in other colonies. Progress reported.
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: That is
the case.
LEAVE OT ABSENCE.
An HON. MEMBER: But it will not last!
Motion (by Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
The Hon. J.W.HACKETT: Ithaslasted
That leave of absence for one week be granted
to Mr. George Leake on account of urgent private.
for ten years, but it will not last for ever.
affairs.
What is to be done under these circum-
Convention adjourned at 5.9 p.m.
stances? I entirely agree with the Right
Hón. Sir John Forrest that we should re-
vert to the provisions of the bill of 1891.
WEDNESDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
In common with the great majority of the
members of this Committee, I earnestly
Petition-Federation of the Railways--Commonwealth of
hope that the policy indicated of trusting
an Australian parliament will be pursued.
It seems to me that nothing is more cheer-
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
ing than the different spirit of this Conven-
tion now compared with its spirit when we
PETITION.
met a few months ago. This Convention
Mr. MOMILLAN presented a petition
has reverted to the spirit of the Convention
from the responsible officers of the New
of 1891, when we were all for trusting to South Wales Local Option League, pray-
the federal parliament. For some reason
ing that a provision be introduced into
doubts seem to have come across the minds
the constitution to prevent the forcing of
of many of the new members of the Con-
alcohol and opium into any state against
vention, if I may say so without offence,
its wish.
and they are unwilling to accord those large
powers to the federal parliament which FEDERATION OF THE RAILWAYS.
the Convention of 1891 had most willingly Mr. WISE: I wish to ask you, sir,
and unreservedly given. In fact, we are whether you have received a communica-
now beginning to trust the federal par- tion from the Wagga Farmers' Conference,
liament. At the same time there is a great presenting a resolution to the effect that.
deal of force in what the hon. member, Mr. federation will not be acceptable to the
Symon, has urged, that, after all, we are producers, unless it provides for the feder-
asked to go into this union blindfold. ation of the railways; and if so, by what
What I would ask the Convention and means such resolution can be laid on the
the Finance Committee to bear in mind is table of the Convention ?
that if we do take this leap in the dark. The PRESIDENT: I have received such, a:
they will at all events. let us know how communication, and have consulted with
far we shall have to fall, so that there may the leader of the Convention on the subject;
be some limitation to our descent. I shall but it was thought that as the represen-
not be behind any one in trusting a par- tation was not in the form of a petition,
liament of our fellow-citizens of Australia.. which is the proper mode of addressing this
156
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.].
rs
and
Convention as regards any action it is de- On the basis of those tables we were told
sired to take, the best course would be to ac- that the mother colony would have to bear
knowledge its receipt, and to point out what the whole burden of federation, and that,
should be done. At the same time, if I un- while she was inclined to be generous to her
derstand it is the wish of the writers that poorer daughters to the extent of a few
publicity might be given to the communica- hundred thousand pounds, when it came
tion, of course there will be no objection to to a million or so it was necessary to draw
handing the communication to the press. the line. Unfortunately also, the use of
those tables has not stopped there, be-
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
cause others have unwittingly used them
In Committee (consideration resumed from
as being correct. Even my hon. friend,
7th September, vide page 155):
Mr. McMillan, in an address he delivered
Clause 88. Uniform duties of customs shall be to the Chamber of Commerce, which he
imposed within two years after the establish-
has published in a very useful pamphlet,
ment of the commonwealth.
referred to them in such a way as to lead
Amendment suggested by the House of Assembly
a casual reader to believe that New South
of South Australia :
In line 1, after “customs," to insert Wales, under the proposed system, would
excise."
lose £668,000 a year and that Victoria
Question--That the words "and excise" would gain £812,000 a year.
be inserted—proposed.
Mr. McMILLAN : I think I, to a certain
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER extent, said that I did not absolutely con-
(Victoria) (10.32]: I have to express my sider them reliable !
regret that, in consequence of serious ill- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The
ness, I shall be unable to speak, perhaps, hon. gentleman qualified it to some extent.
as clearly or as fully as I ought to do as Mr. McMILLAN : As much as I could !
Treasurer of Victoria ; but I feel perfectly The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
certain that hon, members will, under the No, I do not think the hon. gentleman
circumstances, overlook any shortcomings did, because he might have said that these
on my part. I think this discussion has figures were wholly and totally unreliable,
shown the wisdom of the course we are as they undoubtedly are. The foundation
pursuing in having a general debate on on which they rest is absolutely rotten,
financial matters before the Finance Com- and the hon. gentleman, as a financial man,
mittee undertake the very difficult and must know it as well as any one here.
onerous task of once again endeavouring That statement, coming from that hon,
to devise a scheme in connection with the gentleman, has had great weight, and will
finances of the commonwealth which will do, to my mind, a considerable amount of
bear scrutiny, and be satisfactory to the injury unless it is clearly shown now, as
people interested. Certain tables have may be done by this Convention, that these
been circulated, and representatives here figures should have no reliance whatever
have referred to them, and I feel bound also placed on them.
placed on them. Fortunately for us, Mr.
to refer to them very briefly. We recollect Pulsford has taken this task out of our
how those tables were sprung upon us in hands, and he has shown clearly and dis-
the Finance Committee and at the Conven- tinctly by many examples, and if neces-
tion in Adelaide. They were rammed down sary I could add many others, and give
our throats, and we were led to believe, further reasons—that these figures ought
and people outside were, unfortunately, not to weigh one iota with us in consider-
led to believe, that they were justifiable. ing this question.
This bombshell was
[The President.
Commonwealth of [8 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bili.
157
thrown in amongst us. Why it was thrown was for many years an accountant in the
in I do not know, but it was thrown in, Customs, the accountant to the Treasury,
and at the time it had some effect. I be- the Government Statist, and a well-known
lieve it led some of my colleagues from accountant in our department—to investi-
Victoria to the conclusion that the only gate this matter. Hon. members will find
means of getting rid of this difficulty was their report in a document which Victoria's
the imposition of a land-tax, and as they representatives have brought here for their
were strongly against a land-tax, they consideration. On page 5 of their report
were prepared to agree to almost anything. they show that taking the customs and
Unfortunately, like many other bomb- excise duties collected in 1896 on Austral-
shells, although it did not accomplish its asian goods, and deducting that amount
object, it has, to my mind, done more in- from the total customs revenue derived, the
jury, especially in this colony, to federa- net amount per head in Victoria, New South
tion than anything which has happened Wales, and South Australia approximates
during the last ten years. The sooner we very closely. I will give the figures. In Vic-
make it clear that we are perfectly satisfied toria the total we collected was £2,047,000,
that these figures should be put on one the duties on Australian goods, £291,000,
side the better for the cause we have at leaving a net amount of £1,756,000; in
heart. No one, I think, will deny that New South Wales the total was £2,259,000,
ultimately the uniform tariff will, as nearly the duties on Australian goods, £372,000,
as possible, realise a uniform rate through- leaving a net amount of £1,887,000; and
out the whole of Australasia. There may in South Australia the total was £556,000,
be variances in some colonies. They may with duties on Australian goods, £42,000,
contribute more on one line than they do leaving a net amount of £514,000. Work-
on another; but in the colony where they ing this out the amount will come for Vic-
contribute more on one line, they will pro- toria to £1 9s. 9d.; for New South Wales
bably contribute less on another line. to £1 9s. 10d.; and for South Australia to £1
Taking it all round, in my opinion, after 9s. 1d. Mr. Pulsford follows that up by show-
thinking the matter out carefully and ing that, allowing for the differencein popu-
getting all the information I could, there lations, the imports of New South Wales
is no reasonable doubt that we will, after in 1896 would stand, after allowing for
some reasonable period, contribute equally the exports, at about £10,000,000, against
per capita to the amount under a uniform £8,000,000. He further quotes certain
tariff.
statistics from the Government Statis-
Mr. WALKER: Excepting Western Aus- tician's book which show that of tobacco
tralia!
and alcohol both colonies consume some-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : In what alike, the proportions being-New
all my remarks I intend to leave Western South Wales, tobacco, 3.38 ib. ; Victoria,
Australia out of the question, because the 3.01 fb.; alcohol, New South Wales, 2.17
abnormal conditions existing there put us gallons; Victoria, 2:32 gallons. Taking
in a difficult position to deal with that all the figures available, and looking at the
colony, unless we treat her in an excep- position fairly, I think we are forced to
tional way, as undoubtedly the Finance the conclusion, as I have said, that we may
Committee will do. The Victorian Go- fairly base all our calculations of the future
vernment appointed a committee of gen- on the assumption that in a few years time
tlemen holding responsible positions—the we may deal with the matter on a per
Secretary of Customs, a gentleman who capita basis. I think Mr. McMillan very
158
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
(8 SEPT., 1897.]
fairly put the difficulty before us which is formulated, and many of us thought that
raised by the fact that we have in New the per capita distribution should come
South Wales a free-trade tariff, and in the into operation at once on the imposition of
other colonies practically a protective tariff. uniform customs. But, again, the trouble
Whilst dealing with this subject and look- of New South Wales having a free-trade
ing at it from a states point of view, I join tariff brought us face to face with a diffi-
my friend, Mr. Holder, in saying that we are culty. It is pointed out by the representa-
not fairly or rightly subject to any charge of tives of that colony on the Finance Com-
provincialism. Weknow that we are giving mittee that if we brought the per capita
up to the commonwealth the elastic source system into operation at once we would
of our revenue when we part with our cus- deal somewhat unfairly with them, because
toms. We are bound to see exactly where they would, in the calculation of imports,
we are going to be led before we do that. receive a larger amount than they would
Therefore, in the remarks I make with re- get credit for in the distribution. It was
gard to the various proposals, I am bound, pointed out very strongly that the uniform
as Treasurer of Victoria for the time being, tariff, enabling manufactures to be started,
to ascertain what amount of loss will be would not take effect in that colony for a
forced on the colony by joining the com- number of years. I myself thought there
monwealth, and also by what means we was some considerable force in that argu-
are going to make up that deficiency. We ment. We then came to a compromise
have had various schemes submitted for that instead of having a sudden drop
dealing with this troublesome situation. in that colony we should extend it over
In 1891 we had a scheme which, I confess, a period of five years.
I think that was
I took to be fair and reasonable ; but a fair arrangement. Indeed I have now
afterwards, when figures were applied to come to the conclusion that it was some-
it, it was admitted by the authors, and what too liberal an arrangement. I do not
is generally admitted now, to be one which think there is so much in this question
would not be acceptable to a great many with regard to the imports, because there
of the colonies. Then the Convention at will be almost two years in which it will
Bathurst formulated a scheme which has be known that a uniform tariff-an ad-
met with no acceptance, because it would mittedly protective tariff to some extent-
involve, practically for all time, book- is about to be imposed, and we may fairly
keeping; and book-keeping is so foreign to assume that manufacturers in New South
federation that I think we are fairly unani-
Wales will say,
" We are to have this
mous in our opinion that we should get rid tariff, and we will be prepared as soon as
of that system at the earliest possible date. it is imposeil to compete with the outside
Then our Finance Committee evolved a world, and will start our manufactures at
scheme, which received little support in
once." Then manufacturers in Victoria
the Convention. Ultimately the Trea- will not be blind to their interests. They
surers were requested to formulatea scheme, have their machinery; they have their
and they did so, and that is really the only means of manufacturing; and they will lay
scheme at all practicable to my mind which in good stocks, and be prepared to supply
is at present before us for consideration. New South Wales as soon as they have
We must not lose sight of the basis on free-trade. Therefore, I think the amount
which this scheme rests. It rests on a per
of customs which will be collected will de-
capita distribution of the surplus. That crease much more rapidly than is antici-
is the leading principle upon which it is pated. I think in one or two years my
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
t
Commonwealth of
159
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
friends in New South Wales will probably The position in New South Wales in re-
find that the decrease will have taken gard to free-trade is no doubt difficult to
place.
that colony, because, as was pointed out
Mr. MCMILLAN : The right hon. gentle- at the last Convention, and as has been
man thinks business men have great faith pointed out in our parliaments and here, it
in politicians !
will enable merchants to stock very largely
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: If under a free-trade tariff with the view of
they have not it is because politicians, in ultimately sending the goods into the dif-
many instances, have not very great faith ferent colonies without the payment of
in themselves. If we are thought little of duties. That is something we ought to
outside it is because we are in the habit of endeavour to prevent. So far as the other
belittling ourselves inside.
colonies are concerned it has been pro-
Mr. MCMILLAN : I mean the chances of vided that although the goods may come
politics !
into Sydney free of duty if they pass over
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The the borders into other colonies those colo-
chances of politics, so far as this matter is nies are to get credit as if the duties had
concerned, as I will endeavour to show later been paid by them. That of course places
on, are pretty certain to be that for many them in a fairly good position, but it places
years under federation we will undoubt- the commonwealth in the unfortunate posi-
edly have a protective tariff against the tion of having to pay money which it
outside world, so that in allowing the five actually does not receive. There is another
years' sliding scale period I feel that we point in regard to that. Although the
have treated the mother colony not only colony would not suffer to any appreciable
fairly, but liberally.
extent, there is no doubt that the manu-
Mr. WALKER : Does the right hon. gen- facturers in Victoria would suffer very
tleman think that Queensland would agree largely in consequence of those goods being
to that if she came in ?
sent into that colony free of duty. The
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : difficulty arises in New South Wales, and I
Queensland I have not considered, because say that New South Wales ought to be pre-
she has so far not attempted to come here pared to obviate it. We can to some extent
and show us what her difficulties are, or in the other colonies obviate it by insisting
to endeavour to arrange such a scheme as that those goods, for a period at all events
she may eventually come under.
of twelve months, shall be charged with
The Hon. E. BARTON: She has done a duty on passing into our colony-goods
good deal of sliding already !
which have been imported with a view of
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: putting profit into the merchants' pockets,
Undoubtedly she has, and I do not know doing something that may be perfectly
that we ought to add to our many other legitimate in itself, but which is injúrious
difficulties by considering a colony which to the commonwealth. Another suggestion
will not come here to help us to formulate has occurred to me, and I give it to the Con-
such a scheme as might be satisfactory to vention for what it is worth. It may appear
her. I admire our friends from Western on further consideration that it is im-
Australia; they do come here and point practicable. I take it that the object of
out their difficulties, and they find us all free-trade in New South Wales is to let the
ready and willing, as we would be in the people of New South Wales have the bene-
case of Queensland, to meet any fair and fits which it is alleged accrue from free-
reasonable difficulties placed before us. trade; but it is never intended to give
160
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
what I, without wishing to be offensive, if goods can be imported into New South
would call illegitimate benefits to the mer- Wales without any duty being paid upon
chants; therefore I offer this suggestion: them, and if we, in the other colonies, can
That if this federation is to take place it get credit for them, not only will manufac-
ought to be a condition that the Parlia- turers be injured, and the commonwealth
ment of New South Wales shall impose a have to pay money it does not receive, but
protective tariff, not for the purpose of New South Wales, in the year of calcula-
doing away with free-trade-of course if tion, will be put at the bottom of the list,
they choose to impose a protective tariff and that would form the basis for the
for that purpose, well and good--I, as a other four years. If we can, on a reason-
protectionist, will be glad to see it; but, able basis, such as I have suggested,
independently of that, I think it would be charge a duty, and if, as in our colony, we
quite competent for them to impose a pro- have, an allowance of drawback to those
tective tariff for the purpose of getting rid who are not attempting to take advantage
of this difficulty by charging a duty and of us, we may to some extent obviate the
then allowing a rebate to all the importers difficulty. However, I admit that this
who can show that the goods inported idea occurred to me only lately. I have
have actually been consumed in the colony not thought it out as thoroughly as its
during the specified time honestly and importance may deserve, and, perhaps,
bona fide.
other hon. members may be able to show
Mr. WALKER : Would it not be better that it is impracticable or unjust. I give
to make the intercolonial free-trade com- it to the convention for what it is worth,
mence from the second year ?
in the hope that some hon. members for
An Hon. MEMBER : Where would New New South Wales will be able to discuss
South Wales be able to get her revenue the matter, and show whether it is a reason-
from?
able and fair mode of dealing with the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: difficulty.
New South Wales would to some extent Mr. SOLOMON : The right hon. gentle-
be able to get rid of the difficulty by im- man's suggestion will give a lot of ammu-
posing a reasonable tariff.
nition to the opponents of federation !
The Hon. J. HENRY : How would you Mr. LYNE : There is a great deal of
reach all the stocks in hand prior to the ammunition left if you do not agree to it!
duties coming into force ?
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The
An Hon. MEMBER : To prevent specu- hon, member, Mr. McMillan, with his usual
lation ?
frankness has admitted that the per capita
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : arrangement is the most scientific and
The object that I have in view is to pre- simple means of dealing with the matter
vent illegitimate speculation, and I have eventually, although it should not be en-
no doubt that, if the Finance Committee forced at present in the exceptional cir-
thoroughly thrash out this scheme on a cumstances of New South Wales. If the
basis somewhat similar to that, we might, period is not long enough we could, of
with the assistance of the representatives course, lengthen it. The hon. gentleman
of New South Wales, come to a satisfac- also says that it is only fair to expect that
tory arrangement, for they, in their own the merchants of Sydney will load up. I
interest, ought to be anxious to prevent
desire to help the hon. gentleman to get a
what I have mentioned from being done, fair system, and to prevent the merchants
because it is admitted, and it is true, that, of Sydney from loading up if we can do so
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner'.
Commonwealth of
161
[8 SEPT., 1897.
Australico Bill.
. fairly. This idea about loading up is appa- culty. It has been suggested that we should
rently looked upon as a somewhat new one; take the second year. If we do so it means
but it was pointed out at the last Conven- another year's book-keeping. But what is
tion that no doubt the merchants would that if we can get a fair and equitable
take advantage of this provision, and we arrangement? If, by taking the second
knew that we had ultimately to devise some year, we can prevent this loading up
scheme as far as we possibly could to pre- and it would prevent it, though not alto-
vent this difficulty from arising. I ask gether—and we can make this scheme fair
hon. members whether any other scheme and equitable, I shall be prepared to throw
has been placed before us which is better in my lot with those who say, “Let us
than the one which is submitted. The hon. take the second year, or an average of the
member, Mr. Holder, says that unfortu- first and second years." This is a matter
nately this scheme does not appear to have with which I have no doubt the Finance
been challenged. I have listened to all Committee, if it comes before them, will,
the other proposals, and I am still of upon talking it over, be well able to deal.
opinion that this scheme, whether we adopt So far as I have been able to see, it is
it here or whether the federal parliament really the only objection of any weight
adopt it hereafter, will be the basis of the which has been raised against this scheme,
system of distribution of the surplus that which has been open to criticism for so
must ultimately come about.
many months.
It is true that many of
Mr. McMILLAN : The only objection to the parliaments have simply wiped out the
that scheme was basing it upon the first scheme, and they have not attempted to
year. As a mere matter of form it is
suggest any clauses showing what their
perfect !
ideas on the subject are. I consider that
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I am an admission on their part that, with the
glad that iny hon. friend has gained experi- further length of time they have had, and
ence, and will support me. There are two the further information they have derived
objections alleged. One is that the sliding from the many criticisms which have been
scale term is not long enough. I think it delivered in the various colonies, they are
is too long, but I will not go back on the not prepared to submit any scheme which
compromise which has been made. I think they think would be more acceptable to
five years is ample for New South Wales, the people than that which the Treasurers
and I do not object to five years, because suggested after the hurried consultation
we shall be actually dealing with the which they held over the matter in Ade-
amount collected in one year, and if we laide. I have said that, so far as book-
extend the period to five years we shall keeping is concerned, I am one of those
not be giving too great an advantage to who desire to obviate the difficulty at the
New South Wales.
earliest possible moment. One writer in
Mr. McMILLAN: I think that five years the press—evidently a very able gentle-
is conceded !
man-has told us that the whole difficulty
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No can be got rid of by making savings equi-
it is not. Some hon. members desire five valent to the amount we shall lose. It is
and twenty years. As my hon. friend has apparently admitted that, if Queensland
pointed out, the real objection is that we comes in, we shall lose intercolonial duties
have taken the wrong year. If we limit it to amounting to, probably, £1,000,000, and
that point surely we can, among ourselves, that if Queensland does not come in we
devise a means of getting over the diffi- shall lose less than half that amount. Of
162
Australia Biti.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
now.
the £290,000 odd which we collect from far as security is concerned, I am per-
intercolonial duties in Victoria, £190,000 fectly convinced that the securities of the
is obtained from duties on sugar, most individual colonies are just as good as the
of which comes from Queensland, while securities of the federal government would
£60,000 of what is left is collected by be. So that any saving of this kind is at
means of what our friends look upon as the present time a myth; and that is a
the very obnoxious stock-tax. Now we point which we must very carefully bear
are told that we can save £1,000,000 a in mind. We know that a loss must take
year by handing over and consolidating the place if we have federation, and that, un-
debts of the various colonies.
less the states recover almost as much as
The Hon. H. DOBSON : I think it is they contribute to the federal government,
£500,000!
they will not be able to carry on their
The Right Hon. Sir. G. TURNER:
work. The saving which would be gained
Well, £500,000.
by consolidating our loans would no doubt
take place eventually ; but it is a saving
Mr. MCMILLAN : How shall we be able
which we cannot take into consideration
to save if we do not consolidate ?
The same remark would apply in
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We regard to the saving which would take
cannot. That is the difficulty. I have place upon the consolidation of the rail-
always argued that, eventually, we will, as
ways.
I believe that if the railways were
a commonwealth, be able to save £1,000,000 consolidated, and managed under federal
a year, and perhaps more, as the loans of
control, free from the pressure which can be
the various colonies expire, or as the time brought to bear by the states, higher rates
of expiration draws near, though, no doubt,
could be charged and more revenue could be
the colonies, if we do not federate, will
raised. But the amalgamation of the rail-
themselves be able to save almost as much.
ways is, at the present time, admittedly
I am not at all sure that, upon the renewal
impossible. Therefore we must put any
of the existing loans, the money-lenders saving on that account ont of the question
will be very much more pleased with the
altogether. Dealing shortly with the loans
commonwealth securities than they are
question, while I usually agree with the
with the securities which are offered to
hon. member, Mr. Holder, I do not agree
them now by the different colonies. They with his position that we ought not to say
know that they are perfectly safe now,
in the bill we are framing that it shall be
and, as astute business men, they are per- compulsory upon the commonwealth to
fectly satisfied that the colonies are always
take over the loans of the colonies, be-
solvent enough to pay the interest. While,
cause that will be giving a bonus to the
no doubt, they would like to have a large English capitalist. If we say that we are
consolidated stock for market purposes-
going to amalgamate, and we propose to
and it is our curse now that we have no
convert and to consolidate our loans at
large stock
once, no doubt the prices of our stock will
Mr. SOLOMON : They would like to have
go up, because the holders of it will ask
an interminable stock !
for more.
But we are not likely to do
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Yes. that. It will be only as the stock falls
That would be better for market purposes. due that the commonwealth will be able
Therefore, when we came to renew, to convert upon anything like terms which
when we came to borrow further, we
will suit us.
If we simply say that the
should probably get better terms. But so commonwealth may take over these loans
or
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
163
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Billi
and to say,
as we ought to do to avoid the difficulty The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It
--will not the same difficulty arise when is proposed by some that the common-
we come to convert and to consolidate, if wealth shall take over the debts of the
we ever do ? The moment it is intimated colonies to the amount of £40 per head of
that the commonwealth intends to con- the population.
solidate the loans of the various colo- The Hon. J. HENRY: Take over the
nies, the holders of the stock will say, whole of the debts, but make it obligatory
“ This is going to be more valuable, and on the colonies to be responsible to the
we shall want more for it." If we are to federal government for all in excess of a
bargain with individual holders of stock, certain proportion.
“We will give you so much if The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
you will take the new stock on our terms,” That, I believe, is the proposal put for-
then we shall have, not one large stock, ward by Tasmania ; but the proposal was
but partly old stock and partly consolidated made at the last sitting of the Convention
stock.
at Adelaide that the commonwealth should
An Hon. MEMBER: The holders of the be at liberty to take over only a portion
stock must take payment if we offer it to of the debts of the colonies.
them !
An Hon. MEMBER: A ratable propor-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : tion !
They need not take payment for the stock The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
until it falls due. If we wait until the That is objectionable, because it would
stock falls due, it is immaterial whether never do. We want to have one stock. .
we say that it shall be optional, or that it The Hon. E. BARTON: Power is given in
shall be compulsory, to take it over.
But the bill !
if we make it compulsory, I say that even The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
then it will make no difference.
Yes, I know it is there; but it would be
The Lon. F. W. HOLDER: We cannot unwise to exercise that power. However,
make it compulsory, because there are two it is only a power in the bill, and the
parties to the bargain !
federal parliament would exercise its wis-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Well, dom in dealing with the matter. Now, it
as the Convention was against me upon is perfectly clear that we must not have a
this point before, I will not press it any surplus. That has been a trouble to Trea-
further at the present time. I am against
surers in days gone by, and will be a
the proposal to take over only a portion of trouble to the federal treasurer unless we
the loans. I think it would be a great take the surplus away from him by some de-
mistake for the commonwealth to take over finite and distinct means. On one occasion
loans to the extent of £30 or £40 per in Victoria we had a surplus of £1,700,000,
head, if that were a fair mode of arranging and we have been in trouble ever since.
the matter, which it is not, any more than We do not want a surplus like that again;
the per capita scheme is. I would not be we are satisfied with smaller ones now.
in favour of taking over a portion of the But it is admitted that we must hand over
loans, making the commonwealth respon- to the federal government the customs if
sible for a portion of the debts of the we are to have a federation, and that
colonies, and the individual states respon-
source of revenue will undoubtedly furnish
sible for another portion of it.
a surplus. Now, we have to divide it.
An Hon. MEMBER: That is not pro- There are only two ways of dividing it-
posed !
either in proportion to the collection from
164
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
of five years.
each colony or per capita. Those are the we should leave it to the federal parliament
only two propositions it is possible to to decide it—that we are not competent to
suggest. If we are to divide the surplus deal with the question—that we must
on the basis of collection it will necessi- give it up as something beyond our powers,
tate book-keeping accounts for all time, or and must trust the federal body with this
for as long a period as the practice is con- great matter as we have trusted them with
tinued. Therefore, I think we have come other matters. But even those who advo-
down to only one mode which is feasible, cate that particular proposal are divided
and that is the per capita distribution, sub- into three classes. Some are prepared to
ject. to such modifications as will make it trust the federal parliament if they will
fair from the present time. We have had guarantee a certain amount for all time.
two or three suggestions to that end which Some are prepared to trust them if there
are well worthy of consideration. One be a guarantee of a fixed amount for five
is : that we shall deal with narcotics and
years. Others, again, are prepared to trust
spirits as distinct subjects. That might to them absolutely. Now, how are we to
someextent get over the difficulty. I am not meet these three classes? My hon. friend,
now in favour of it; but I admit that it is Mr. McMillan, also says that he will trust
well worth consideration. It has also been the federal parliament, but he says that
suggested that in calculating the population he thinks that in deference to the views of
we should deal with adults or with males, the other colonies—and this was elicited
and that might enable us to meet the views by an interjection—weshould have a period
of the other colonies. I have no decided
view upon the question, and I am quite Mr. MCMILLAN : In deference to their
willing to consider it with our hon. friends peculiar position !
upon the Finance Committee if the scheme The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: New
will get us out of the difficulty. One thing South Wales, with its enormous land
we must keep before us : we cannot have revenue, the hon, member tells us, is in a
an absolute equality. If we are to enter position different from the other colonies.
this federation there must be give and I think she has about £2,000,000 a year
take; and certain of the colonies must be from land, and, as a matter of fact, about
prepared to sacrifice something for the £1,250,000 of that is derived from the
assistance of the smaller colonies—to en- sale of land. Now, I think that if New
able them to tide over their difficulty. We South Wales can manage to get a certain
must keep this one point always before us, amount of extra revenue without much
and be prepared to tell those we represent injury to the people, it would be a good
that we are making sacrifices, but that we thing to do it; and instead of eating up
think the end in view justifies them—that all this capital and using it for current
we must be prepared to make some reason- purposes, she might very fairly deal with
able sacrifice for the purpose of bringing the money in the direction of forming a
us together in the great scheme we all de- sinking fund, with a view to the payment
sire to see accomplished. Now what sug- of some of her liabilities. That would be
gestions have been made which would en- a grand idea. We have started it in a
able the Finance Committee to arrive at any snall way in Victoria, and it is gradually
decision in this matter? The most popular growing with us. For instance, we have
--and it is one which seems to have been taken the whole of the mallee country, and
well received, as far as I can judge—is we say. “Whatever we get from this land
that we should shelve the matter-that we will put into a sinking fund for the
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
165
58 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
purpose of eventually helping to pay off penditure, and I am afraid that under the
our debt.” Now, New South Wales has arrangement suggested by the hon. mem-
£1,250,000 of revenue from the sale of ber we should have taking place that
land. She could put the whole of that which has taken place in America. On
into a sinking fund, and could in a few the other hand, if we make it the minimum
years wipe off her debt, and be free from amount there would be continual log-
the interest she has now to pay. I throw rolling, and continual pressure would be
that out as a suggestion. If my protec- brought to bear upon the federal parlia-
tionist friends are in office they might ment to get better terms, as has occurred
collect another £500,000 from protective in Canada. While I agree with the hon.
duties. They would then be able to take member on many subjects, I cannot agree
a large proportion of this capital and apply with him as to this mode of getting rid of
it to this particular purpose.
the difficulty. The hon. member, Mr.
Mr. McMILLAN : We might give you an Walker, brought forward a scheme to
area for a federal capital free!
capitalise the discrepancies. I endeavoured
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: You to understand it; but I confess that so far
might give us Riverina. I will make a I have not mastered its intricacies. As,
bargain with my hon. friend. If New however, we shall now have the bene-
South Wales, with her usual generosity, fit of the hon. member's advice upon the
is anxious to help us, let the hon. member Finance Committee, I have no doubt
advocate before his constituents, or in the that we shall eventually understand the
next Parliament, that Riverina should be matter. If the hon. member's scheme
handed over to Victoria.
obviates the difficulty, we shall no doubt
Mr. McMILLAN : You say you have it be very glad to deal with it. It carries
now!
on book-keeping, however, for a period of
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We years. The hon. member says,
have it practically. Now my hon. friend, invoices be sent in"; but we know that if
Mr. Deakin, who is an ardent federationist, we have to trust to the merchants to send
cuts the Gordian knot very simply. He in invoices, in a number of cases it will
says we shall get rid of all the difficulty if not be done.
we take a certain fixed sum calculated on Mr. WALKER : Make it compulsory !
the receipts, as at present, or for a series The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
of years, and making that the amount to You may make it so, and you may impose
be handed over to the states. On its any penalty you like; but the matter will
being pointed out to the hon. member that be left to clerks; they will be careless, and
if that were to be done the interest on the invoices will not be sent in. Howerer, I
debts might be reduced, whilst the customs have not yet had an opportunity of
might steadily increase until they brought thoroughly understanding the hon. mem-
in a very large amount under the uniform ber's scheme. I have no doubt we shall
tariff, the hon. member said, “Let that be do so when we come to deal with it. My
the minimum amount”--that being the opinion is that we should not leave the
amount proposed by the hon. member. federal parliament a surplus at all, that
But we should deal with the whole surplus. we should take care to so saddle then with
In America they handed over the whole liabilities that they will have to pay away
duties less a fixed amount, thereby having more than they will receive. That, to my
a very large sum, and there was a con- mind, is the proper course. So surely as
tinuous demand for its extravagant ex- you allow them a surplus, so surely will
five years.
66 Let
166
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
]
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
No prevent that?
there be extravagance. It is all very well government for a particular colony, and
to say that we should trust them; but we that particular colony will become respon-
know that when a Treasurer has money sible for the interest.
to spend, pressure is brought to bear on
Mr. MCMILLAN : The federal govern-
him to spend that money. Look at what ment could not be responsible for all the
is occurring in Victoria. For the first states might borrow !
time in many years we have a trifling The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Not
surplus. Is not pressure being brought unless it assented, and that would be the
to bear upon me from all sides to spend it? most effective check upon improper bor-
Mr. MCMILLAN: Does not the hon. rowing. I quite admit that we must have
member resist it?
one authority to deal with the loans.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
Mr. LYNE: Supposing one state wanted
do resist it, and intend to resist it; but if
to borrow money for a railway, would you
I had a surplus of £400,000 or £500,000 give the federal government power to
the pressure would be too strong.
Treasurer could resist it. So surely as you
The Right Hon. Sir G, TURNER: I
allow the federal parliament a surplus to
think it necessarily follows that if we hand
spend, so surely will the Government of the over the existing debts, we cannot make
day insist on spending a great deal of it.
the federation liable for one portion of
There has been the same experience in
the debts and separate colonies liable for
every colony, and we shall have the same
other parts of the debts. It is impossible
experience wherever we have to deal with
to have two systems running concurrently
human nature. I am strongly of opinion
with any satisfaction ; but I am quite
that we ought at once to saddle the federal
open to hear argument on the other side of
parliament with such liabilities that there
that question. I am quite certain that if
will be no surplus. The only way is to
that course is to be taken, we must have
give them a greater expenditure than they only one borrower. As far as New South
will have receipts from customs to meet.
Wales is concerned, I think, as I have said
The mere ordering of them to pay interest before, that she has been very liberally
dealt with. We have met her very fairly
on the debt will not get rid of the diffi-
culty of distribution of the surplus. It
on the question of theaggregate distribution.
The first idea was that a limited amount of
must be provided for on the per capita basis
or upon some other system.
the surplus was to be handed back to each
state. It was pointed out to us that owing
Mr. McMILLAN: What about the future
to the unfortunate policy-I will not say
debts?
the unfortunate, but the present policy-of
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: There
New South Wales, she would get less under
will be only one consolidated debt for the
that arrangement than she contributed.
whole of Australia. The federal parlia-
We then agreed, in fairness, to make the
ment will have to take over the whole of
amount an aggregate sum.
To meet New
the present debt, and when once they take
South Wales, we agreed to a sliding scale.
over the present debt
We must not forget that although New
Mr. McMILLAN : Future borrowing will South Wales may contribute a consider-
have to be done with the consent of the able sum, she will undoubtedly save a
central government!
large amount in expenditure if the sur-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The plus is distributed per capita instead of
borrowing will have to be by the central an exact amount. The Hon. Sir Philip
(The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Conmonwealth of
167
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
lines;
Fysh has shown by his tables that the draw trade from its natural channel ; that abs)-
saving will be a large sum. Whether his
lute justice should be done to all parts of the
commonwealth, leaving out imaginary boundary
figures are absolutely correct I am not
that the people in all districts shall have
prepared to say. It is admitted by all the
conceded to them the advantages of their natural
writers in New South Wales that a distri- position ; and that no obstruction to the free flow
of traffic in its natural channel should be allowed.
bution per capita is favourable to this
colony, so on the whole I think New South I now say, after months of further oppor-
Wales has not much to grumble about
tunity for consideration, that that is the
in connection with the various proposals
true federal principle whether it be a
which have been put forward. I shall question of railway or water carriage. If
now deal shortly with the questions of the
we are to have a true federation we should
railways and the appointment of an inter- wipe out all our imaginary lines, our plat-
state commission, because, although they
form speakers, and after dinner orators.
are hardly before us at the present time,
It is the object of federation to wipe out
they have been introduced into the discus-
our imaginary lines of demarcation, and
sion. As far as the inter-state commission to have one great island continent. If
is concerned, I think it is somewhat pecu-
that is the true principle on which federa-
liar that when the Finance Committee re. tion is to be based, then we ought to deal
commended such a commission, with cer- with the railways so that our people in all
tain powers and authorities, when we came parts of the country shall be able to send
to consider the draft bill, we found in it a their goods to their natural port, and not
proviso which was very objectionable to be forced by any artificial means to send
Victoria, although we were told it was them to a port which is not their natural
put in for our benefit. We could not see port. Of course, this is a serious subject
the benefit to us of that particular proviso, for South Australia, and it is also a serious
which was as follows:
subject for Victoria.
But shall have no powers in reference to the Mr. MCMILLAN: By natural port do you
rates or regulations of any railway in any state
except in cases of rates or regulations preferen-
mean the nearest port?
tial in effect, and made and used for the purpose The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:
of drawing traffic to that railway from the rail- Not always. All things being equal the
way of a neighbouring state.
nearest port is the natural port. Of course,
After careful consideration we asked that
it might be that being closer to a railway
that should be struck out. Now that it line, it would suit some people to send
has been struck out, all interest in this
their goods to Sydney and not to Mel-
inter-state commission seems to have died.
bourne.
It is not wanted ; it is of no use. It is
Mr. WALKER : The right hon. gentle-
rather a curse.
It is somewhat peculiar
man said it was a serious matter for South
that this inter-state commission should
Australia ; how is it so?
have been somewhat popular at the last
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
Convention while the proviso existed, and
Because by the railway rates that we in-
that it should now be so unpopular after
the proviso has been struck out. I put
pose we prevent traffic from going to South
Australia which ought to go there. If we
very shortly the views I held with regard
have federation we are perfectly prepared
to this railway rate question at the last
Convention. At page 1129 of the official
to consent that that traffic should go there.
report, it will be found that I said: The serious subject as between New South
Wales and Victoria is the Riverina trade.
Whatever are the natural advantages of a port,
no state should be allowed to interfere, so as to Victorian capital and the Victorian people
168
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
brought Riverina to the front while New ing it, because we have it already. The
South Wales neglected it. Victorian rail- hon, member, Mr. McMillan, admits that.
ways have been taken there as far as It may mean that we shall have to reduce
we could take them. If we had had the our railway rates all round, and give con-
Riverina district, as we ought to have had, cessions to people in our own colony similar
we would have taken our railways further to those we give to people outside; but I
on. We opened up that territory years ago. arn perfectly certain that our merchants-
Until lately we had undisputed possession, and I do not look upon this as a strong bar
but New South Wales has since claimed it. to federation—will insist on reducing our
Mr. McMILLAN: Does Victoria pay railway rates, so as to keep the trade we
for the roads, the gaols, and court-houses have already. I do hope some means will
in that part of the country?
be devised to prevent this conflict in
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: future. I think no power should be allowed
No; but we have not sent any of our to use the railways so as to destroy the
criminals there. There is no doubt that benefits of intercolonial free-trade. Unless
we have opened up that part of the coun- we have some independent tribunal to de-
try, and it cannot be expected that our cide this question, I say unhesitatingly
people and our merchants are going to that, to a very great extent, the railways
quietly submit, by the provisions of this can be worked so as to prejudice what we
bill, to have the present cut-throat policy desire to see, namely, intercolonial free-
abolished as far as Victoria is concerned, trade. I do hope that some provision will
while the same cut-throat policy is to be be inserted in the constitution, or that some
continued by New South Wales. We are
We are independent tribunal will be established, so
prepared to have that cut-throat policy on as to enable us to get over that difficulty. I
both sides swept away, but we are not now come to the last point I purposed to
prepared to give up our weapon of defence deal with—I have been longer than I in-
or offence while that weapon is still to be tended-and it is the most important of all.
used by New South Wales.
I allude to the popular idea that we are to
The Hon. E. BARTON : Just because you leave this entirely to the federal parlia-
happen to be there!
ment. We know that we are going to have
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Just great difficulty in convincing people to
so, and, geographically, the district belongs enter into this bargain at all. It has been
to us.
said that Victoria is going to gain immense
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is one way benefits from federation. But I do not
of getting a title !
know that that is so. I am not so sure
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : So about it. To begin with, we shall have a
far as this railway question is concerned, larger number of people to contend with, ,
it must remain as it is, or, otherwise, there who are interested as farmers in kecping
must be an independent tribunal estab- on what is called the obnoxious stock-tax,
lished to settle the difficulty. We care not which five years ago was imposed by a
whether it is the federal parliament, the unanimous house immediately after a
federal judiciary, or an inter-state commis- general election.
sion. That is immaterial; but unless we The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not a unanimous
are to have some independent tribunal you house!
may rest assured our people will be deter- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:
mined to fight, not for the purpose of get- Well, as unanimous as a house is possible
ting the trace, but for the purpose of keep- to be on any subject.
[The Right IIon. Sir G. Turner:
Commonwealth of
169
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
An Hon. MEMBER : There was a ma- Victoria, and that the people there who
jority!
are interested will say,
6. The benefits we
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: A are going to derive for the first four or five
practically unanimous house. My hon. years will be more than swept away by the
friend, Mr. Deakin, will recollect that so losses we will ultimately sustain by the
strong was the feeling that the govern competition to which we shall be exposed.
ment of the day was almost forced to take We shall not be able to have the trade of
up that subject before the great question New South Wales, and we shall have New
on which their existence depended—the South Wales competing with us in our
question of the railway commissioners. own colony of Victoria.”
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Hear, hear; that The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We in Victoria
is right!
have the New South Wales market open
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : now, but New South Wales has not our
Although my hon. friend and one or two market!
others were opposed to the stock-tax I The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We
think he will admit that it was passed by certainly have the New South Wales
a practically unanimous House. Now, we market open, but we have to contend on
do not want to give a handle to the class equal terms with the outside world.
of opponents I have referred to, enabling The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The hon.
them to say that we should not enter into member must not look upon that as per-
federation. Then there are our manufac- manent ?
turers. They will naturally look at the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
question in this light : While expecting to do not think it will be permanent. There-
gain an advantage during the first few fore, the aspect of the case I have men-
years, they will recognise that there are tioned will be found to be rather a serious
just as clever men in New South Wales, one when we are advocating federation
that New South Wales has a far larger in our colony. We shall go to the people
territory, that New South Wales has its knowing that we have a large number who,
coal and minerals to work upon, and that in their own interests as farmers and manu-
ultimately in its manufactures it will catch facturers, will be opposed to the scheme-
up to and probably excel Victoria. For knowing also that there are a large num-
many other reasons I have come to the ber of the people who are apathetic. We
conclusion that it is a mistake to think know that we have to get a vote of 50,000
that federation is going to be such a great to carry federation. We know there are
boon to Victoria, and such a great loss hundreds and thousands of people who will
to the other colonies. I believe that New not trouble themselves to go to vote-men
South Wales is the colony which has who do not go to vote at a general elec-
more to gain from federation than all the tion unless you drag them there. They
others put together, and the people of will not care to vote on federation, and
New South Wales should be those most there will be no one to drag them there.
anxious to see federation brought into Knowing that we have these difficulties to
existence.
contend against, is it wise for us, sitting
Mr. MCMILLAN :
here as a body, to admit our inability to
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: deal with this subject, and to go before
There is no question that it will be so ulti- our people and say, "Shut your eyes, open
mately. My hon. friend must see that the your mouth, and swallow whatever the
feeling I have referred to will grow in federal parliament may give you”? Why
0
170
Australicu Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
should we give such a handle to those who What I mean is that the commonwealth
are opposed to federation and strongly ob- would raise what it required, and would
ject to it? Then there is another class
say : " What do we care for the states ?
whom we must not omit. There are a Let them raise what they require by direct
large number of people who are strongly taxation.” I do not believe the common-
opposed to direct taxation. Will they not 'wealth would do that; but such an argu-
be afraid that, if they are to trust the ment would be put by the opponents of
federal parliament altogether, there may federation. It would be a very catching
be just a slight possibility that the federal argument, and would take with a very
parliament may say, "We are not going to
“We are not going to large number of people.
large number of people. I want to avoid
raise all this money from customs. We do the possibility of that argument being put
not care for the states. It is true we here
It is true we here forward, because I honestly desire to see
are the representatives of the states federation brought about. I do not believe
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: They care for that the colony of Victoria, my native
the people!
land, is going to derive all the benefit. I
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That believe that we shall derive some benefit,
is true, but still they will represent very
and I believe that even if we suffer some
large constituencies. I do not say abso- losses, it is well that we should suffer those
lutely that the view I have suggested will losses in order that we may have the greater
be taken by the federal parliament. But advantage of federation. I believe that
my
bon, friend knows as well as I do that the benefits we shall derive from federation
it would be a very catching argument to will counterbalance the losses we may sus-
those opposed to federation. It caught on tain. Although I am not strongly im-
here. When it was put to the Finance pressed with the idea that we are going to
Committee, it caught them. It was put derive all the benefit, I believe that we
to them in the light of the land-tax. That shall derive some benefit, and that we
very same argument would have some ought to join in the proposed federation.
effect put to the people of the class to But I believe New South Wales is the
which I refer. They will say, “There is colony that is going to derive most benefit.
going to be a land-tax. A few of us only The difficulty that occurs to me in connec-
are going to be taxed to raise all these tion with this scheme is that we are going
millions, and we had better noc have fed- to ask the people to accept it blindfold. We
eration at all.” That argument would arcnot prepared to formulate any reasonable
have a strong effect upon those who are scheme to be placed before them. We are
wavering in the balance—those who are going to say to them, “ We cannot tell you
not very strong in their opinions in favour what the basis of this will be. We have
of federation.
to trust entirely to the federal parliament.”
Mr. McMILLAN : Does the right hon. Although those of us sitting here who have
gentleman think anybody would believe watched the matter with deep interest,
that for the first few years of federation
and have thought it out carefully, may be
any taxation would be imposed, except perfectly prepared to do that, I venture to
through the customs? It would be im- say there are hundreds of thousands in all
our colonies who will be afraid, who will
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I not trust the federal parliament, and who
think a large number of people would will abstain from voting altogether, and
believe it. I do not say that there would be that under those circumstances we should
direct taxation under the commonwealth. run a great risk of not getting a majority
1
possible !
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner,
Commonwealth of
:171
58 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
in favour of the proposal. The proposal will be returned if this is left an open
in the bill is that we should continue as question. I know the difficulty in which
we are for two years, and that then we our friends here are placed. They do not
should have a uniform tariff. It is said want to put anything in the bill which
that the Convention cannot decide this will tell their people that it is going
question, because we do not know what to be a protectionist tariff ; they want
the uniform tariff will be, and we do not to leave it an open question. They say
know what the effect of the uniform tariff “there is a majority of free-traders in
will be in the different colonies. In what New South Wales, and if we tell them
better position would the parliament be that it is going to be a protective tariff,
for two or three years after the uniform they will vote against us." I think the
tariff was in operation than we are at the other difficulty will be just as great, and
present moment? It will not be able to if these free-traders fear that the whole of
know what the effect of the tariff will be, this large amount is going to be raised by
and it will not be able to say what should direct taxation, of some sort or other, then
be a fair means of distribution, and either they will probably rather send men to the
it will have to work in the dark, as we are federal parliament who are in favour of
working in the dark, or we must devise protection against the outside world than
for some period a scheme on which the men who will take such a course as to force
federal parliament should proceed. It is individual colonies to impose direct taxation
possible for us in this Convention to deal to make up their requirements. My hon.
.
with the matter in a fair and equitable way. friend, Mr. Holder, touched a sore point.
Personally, I do not know that I would He said, “Before I agree to leave this to
objectto leave the matter to the federal par- the federal parliament, I want to know how
liament, for this reason: that the greatissue that parliament is going to be constituted.”
at the first election would undoubtedly be, What is going to happen? As the matter is
protection or free-trade. While I believe now, we are leaving thesmaller states power,
that there would be an overwhelming ma- practically, by their veto, to decide what
jority of protectionists, I admit that from the tariff is to be. Are we willing to go
each colony would be sent some free-traders, a step further, and at once allow them to
I do not think we should have a mass vote say, not alone what that tariff is to be, and
in any one colony. I think that all classes what the surplus is to be, but how that
should be represented in the federal par- surplus is to be distributed? With equal
liament. But, so surely as we leare this representation in the senate, and with the
an open question, so surely will the pro- power of veto they possess there, are we
tectionists get a block vote, because those prepared to leave to them this power of
who are afraid of a land-tax, and who are saying how this surplus is to be distri-
free traders, will say, rather than run the buted ? I am not afraid of a combination,
risk of having a land-tax, “We will vote but other people are.
That is another
for the man who is a protectionist, and argument which will be used outside by
will raise revenue by customs duties.” As the opponents of federation. Then, those
a protectionist, I shall be very glad to leave who are advocating, and will advocate
the whole matter to the federal parliament, hereafter very strongly, that the smaller
because I believe there will be a unanim- states are not to have equal representa-
ous vote for protection in all the colonies tion, will use this fact as a strong lever;
except New South Wales, and in that they will say : "We are going to leave
colony I beliere a good many protectionists to the federal parliament the distribution
172
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
of this immense surplus. Do you think if I am charged with provincialism, that
we are going to leave it to them if they the states must be protected. I believe
who contribute only in a small amount are the state treasurers must know, at all
going to have the absolute power of saying events, for five years, that they are going
how it shall be distributed ?" They will
to receive a certain amount of money.
I
argue very strongly that the federal par- believe the states must have that money
liament has that power, and that, there-
to enable them to carry on. I believe, if
fore, there should be proportional repre- we are going to get our people to go into
sentation of the smaller states. I warn a federation, we must be prepared to tell
my friends from the larger states that they them, "The utmost you can lose during
are met with the difficulty that the smaller the first five years will be so much. We
states are going to control this matter, and think you ought to lose that sum. We
I warn my friends from the smaller states know by the ever-increasing customs that
that they will be met with the argument ultimately we will get more than sufficient
that they must not have equal representa- returned to us by way of surplus on what-
tion, because they will be met with the ever basis may be adopted, and, therefore,
argument that we cannot give them equal we advise you to accept the scheme.” But
representation, because they are going to unless we can tell our people that, then I
dictate to us. We must agree to a com- feel that we are asking them to do some-
promise; although my colleague does not thing which it is impossible for them to
agree with it, I hope it will be carried out. do. There is one difficulty I can see in
I feel that, if we are going to put this this scheme, and that is, that it is hard
extra difficulty in the way, in all probability and fast, that once we embody it in our
those who represent the smaller states, and constitution it will be very difficult indeed
who voted with us on that occasion, will to alter it. I have not been able to give
not feel justified in voting with us on this this matter the full consideration which
occasion; and, that being so, the question its importance demands, and which its
which was fought then of giving equal seriousness entitles it to receive . I think
rights in regard to money bills will be re- we may possibly evolve some means of
versed at this Convention. So surely as it obviating that. We ought to lay down in
is reversed, so surely you make an end to our constitution principles somewhat on the
any federation. Myhon, friend, Mr. Holder, lines which are laid down in the bill as it
touched that sore point. It is undoubtedly, stands, but I quite admit that if they are
a sore point. It is one which we ought found to work inequitably there should be
to obviate if we can. This is a great diffi- some means of altering them. In other
culty, but we ought not to say we are not instances we have left to the federal par-
to make a further effort; even if we spend liament the right to alter provisions. I
months more over it, if necessary, we ought
throw out for the consideration of the
not to say we are going to give it up in Committee the suggestion whether after
despair until we put our heads together, the five years when the per capita plan has
until we have thought it out once more, come into operation absolutely, and when
until we can see whether we can meet the the federal parliament has had an experi-
difficulties which are raised, until we see ence of the wisdom or unwisdom of the
whether outsiders or ourselves can suggest scheme we would not be prepared to give
some other or better scheme. I have said the federal parliament the power to alter
that I am against the scheme of leaving it it. To give the federal parliament the
to the federal parliament. I believe, even power to alter a scheme is a very different
[T'he Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
173
[8 SEPT., 1897. ]
Australia Bill.
thing from giving the federal parliament the with regard to the period after the five
power to initiate a new scheme. Although years. If we cannot devise a better, let
I do not think the difficulty will ever arise, us, as representatives of the various colo-
I think it is wise to have some simpler nies, put that scheme forward. Let us
mode of dealing with that difficulty than not finally decide it now; let us allow the
is proposed in the bill. The bill makes it Convention to stand over for a period
hard and fast, and if we can by some modi- The Hon. J. HENRY : That's the point!
fication of the scheme leave it to that body
An Hon. MEMBER: Better that than
to ultimately say that the scheme is unfair
ruin it altogether!
and inequitable, then I think we might
The Hon. J. HENRY : It would be ruined
fairly be prepared to say that having pro-
altogether!
vided for five years, having guarded the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
first difficulty of the various states for the
confess I desire to see federation brought
time during which they are going through
about as much as any man.
That is the
a period of transition, the time when the
object I have in view.
customs revenue is not increasing at a suf-
An Hon. MEMBER:
ficiently rapid rate to give them back all
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
the money they have parted with at the
What we do now is final. If we put a
present time - having protected them for
scheme before the people now we shall have
five years, we may fairly then trust the
no power to alter it.
federal parliament to alter the scheme if it
An Hon. MEMBER : Nor have they !
is inequitable. We are now trusting them
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:
after the interval of five years, because we
The people will have no power to alter it ;
are placing no limit on them. I think if
it will be a definite and distinct scheme to
we went to the full length which some of
which the people will have to say “aye
us would desire to go, we would say that
We are asked—I care not how
even after five years they should return to us
long we may sit to do it—to formulate a
a certain percentage of thecustoms revenue
distinct and definite scheme, which, when
that they should return to us for all time
completed, we cannot alter, to be put before
70 per cent. of the customs, keeping 30 per
the people. After an adjournment some of
cent. for themselves; but as we are giving
us may be able, from information we may
to them, necessarily, the power of saying obtain from outside, to suggest something
for themselves what the customs revenue
none of us have yet thought of.
at the end of five years shall be, I, for
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: But that would
one, do not press the idea of insisting that
they should return us a certain percentage
apply to anything at any time!
for all time. I think that suggestion may
An HON. MEMBER: And are we to have
possibly obviate the difficulty. Therefore,
no further opportunity of considering that?
my view of the matter is this : that as no
An Hon. MEMBER: The people have
one has yet been able to suggest a better
been considering it since 1891 !
scheme than the despised scheme of the Mr. McMILLAN : What is the good of
Treasurers--the one that has been swept discussing this now?
away so quietly, the one upon which the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
power of destruction has been brought to am only stating what I think we ought to
bear-we are bound to follow it out. Let do. We ought not to shunt the matter to
us modify it and meet the difficulty with the federal parliament. We ought to de-
regard to the test year; let us modify it cide definitely the best scheme we possibly
or
“no."
174
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.1
say,
can.
Then we shall have to adjourn- ment to be dealt with without any restric-
there is no doubt of that unless the Con- tion." If that is done, the work of the
vention is prepared to go on in the absence Finance Committee is at an end, and they
of Victoria. We ought not at this sitting have nothing to recommend. It is of no
to finally decide any scheme, but we ought use the Finance Committee spending days
to decide the best scheme tentatively, and in discussing various ideas and schemes
we ought to have another opportunity of if the majority of the Convention are pre-
making it permanent, and of hearing any pared to eventually send the matter to the
objections to it in the meantime. It may federal parliament. If we do that we end
be that we may afterwards propose an the matter, and finish the whole of our
entirely new scheme. Are we to positively business.
“The scheme submitted to this Con- Mr. MCMILLAN: If we decide on a definite
vention is the best and only scheme"? I guarantee, the scheme we propound is as
cannot see why there is an objection to the good as any that is, if we alter the first
idea of adjourning for a little time.
year!
The Hon. J. HENRY : Does the right The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
hon. gentleman want to adjourn for ever? do not know that that would necessarily
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No, be adopted; but if we are prepared to
a couple of months.
take the responsibility to which I have
Mr. McMILLAN : Suppose there was referred let us take it at once, and shorten
more danger in adjournment than in com- the work we have to do. Whilst the mem-
pleting the scheme !
bers of the Finance Committee are discuss-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: If ing the matter the Convention will not
there are some schemes with which I am be able to proceed with important work,
not acquainted, well and good. We are and it is useless wasting day after day dis-
putting forward as our last conclusion a cussing the details of the various schemes,
scheme that we have no power to alter. and then to have the Committee telling us,
An HON. MEMBER : That would be an "Our mind is made up; we are going to
objection to any heaven-born scheme ! leave the matter to the federal parliament."
Another Hon. MEMBER: Let us have a
Again, if we are prepared to leave the
scheme from the other place!
matter to the federal parliament after a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: period of five years, let us say so by a dis-
There are a good many members of “the tinct resolution, and limit our labours to
devil's brigade" here, and possibly the devising a scheme in respect of that five
lawyers may agree upon a scheme although years. My idea, after hearing all that has
it does not seem as if the Treasurers ever been said, is that the scheme proposed by
will. The Finance Committee have had the Treasurers is the best that has as yet
the benefit of all the arguments which have been submitted. I do not know that a
been adduced, and I would like them to better scheme could be proposed. I am
have the benefit of a few more. After listen- prepared to stand by it, and to do the best
ing to the arguments I have come to the I can to advocate it in the colony I repre-
conclusion that many of us are prepared sent. I am prepared to meet the various
to leave the matter to the federal parlia- objections which have been raised to it by
ment. If we are, let us take the respon- modifications. I would ask hon. members,
sibility of passing a direct resolution, and however, not to put hindrances in the way
saying at once, “We are prepared to leave of the Finance Committee, but to give them.
the whole matter to the federal parlia- direct instructions as to what we desire..
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of [8 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
175
!
Let us tell them we are prepared to leave senate as against the house that represents
the matter to the federal parliament to be the people at large. Notwithstanding the
dealt with at once, or to be dealt with after fear expressed by the right hon, member,
a period of five years. If we do that we Sir George Turner, I, at all events, and
shall shorten the work of the Convention I believe the right hon. the President of
and of the Finance Committee. I regret I the Convention, will adhere to the votes
have trespassed on the time of hon. mem- which we then gave, and on questions of
bers so long, but as the other Treasurers finance will not allow the upper house
have expressed their views, I felt bound, equal power with the house that represents
representing the colony of Victoria, to the population. If that is the case I do
place my opinions as fully as I could before not see where there is an opening for very
the Convention. Otherwise it might pos- much fear on the part of the larger states
sibly have been said that I had something that a settlement of the financial question
to conceal, or that there was something to inequitable to the larger states will be
which I was afraid to give utterance. arrived at, inasmuch as the ultimate work
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12]: in connection with the financial question
I am sure that hon. members have been will practically rest with the house of re-
gratified by what has been already referred presentatives. Did such a fear animate
to, that is, the marked advance made in those who suggested the great type on
the federal spirit since our assembling in which we are now basing our federation
Adelaide. If the result of this debate did it animate the men who framed the
should be to lessen the work that would American Constitution? It was after
otherwise devolve on the Finance Commit- exceedingly bitter fights that the prin-
tee, it will not be a subject of regret. The ciple of equal representation in the Senate
Right Hon. Sir George Turner pointed was granted in the United States, and they
out that it might be urged that there were did exactly what is now suggested—they
two objections to the suggestion that has left the settlement of the financial ques-
been made to handing over the settlement tion to a parliament in which the smaller
of the financial question to the federal par- states bad equal representation with the
liament. One objection might seem to be of larger states. Therefore, as a matter of
considerable weight; but I think that on a reason, and I submit, also, as a matter of
little reflection the sense of its importance precedent, on which there can be no doubt,
will be greatly diminished. The right hon. we, notwithstanding what the right hon.
gentleman stated that if you allow this member, Sir George Turner, has said as to
question of finance to be settled with a per- the possibility of objection being made to
fectly free hand by the federal parliament, equal representation of the states in the
objection might be made to granting to all senate, are jastified in taking up the posi-
the states the right of equal representation tion that the larger states will not, as a mat-
in the senate, and those who are still advo- ter of reason-because they have nothing
cating the application to the senate of the to fear from it--find in that an addi-
system of proportional representation will tional argument strengthening their op-
find their opposition strengthened by addi- position to equal representation in the
tional arguments. But I would say that, as senate. I speak of the larger states, be-
far as I am concerned, I am still prepared cause the bulk of the opposition to equal
to take up the position which I assumed representation in the senate comes from
in the Convention at Adelaide - that of, to their delegations. The right hon. member,
some extent, tying down the hands of the Sir George Turner, bas mentioned that
176
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
it ought to be a condition--though I do question of direct taxation and the fears
not think he mentioned it very emphati- in relation to the possibility of a land-tax
cally—of the handing over of this matter being particularly heavy. I think he men-
to the federal parliament, that New South tioned the possibility of its running into
Wales should assume a protective tariff to millions of pounds. On the question of
start with.
direct taxation, we are met, no matter
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I did what may be our preference for any par-
not say it ought to be. What I
say
is ticular kind of taxation, with two diffi-
that New South Wales has got us into a culties. I mention this, because, if we
difficulty, and can get us out of it by doing were not met with these difficulties, I
that!
certainly would go in for a direct tax as a
Mr. GLYNN: I do not think that the method of meeting the general expendi-
right hon. gentleman urged it with as ture, in preference to the system of cus-
much emphasis as he would have done if toms duties which so unduly absorbs the
his convictions on the point had been very earnings of the people. We are met with
deeply rooted. But if such a proposition
two difficulties. One is, that we are not
were made in this Convention I should sent here to start new policies—that the
certainly oppose it. There are many adjustment which we frame must be on
grounds of opposition to it. One is that, conditions which already exist, leaving the
as a free-trader, even if it were not pro- question of development on fiscal lines to
posed to fix it in the constitution for ever, the future parliament. If that were not
I should object to fix in the constitution the case, the settlement of our difficulties,
for an indefinite period what I regard as
looked at from one point of view, might be
an economic heresy. Furthermore, I should exceedingly easy. We would not require
like to know what particular tariff New to raise millions of pounds. The total new
South Wales would be asked to establish. expenditure will not be very much more
We know that continual fights are made than £400,000. The loss from intercolonial
on the question of what is and what is not free-trade is really more nominal than real.
a protective tariff.
We know the coun- Up to the present tinie we have been view-
tries that apparently have a protective ing federation very largely from the point of
tariff claim to be free-trade countries.
view of its possible disadvantages. Very
Would it be the tariff of Queensland, which,
little has been said about its undoubted
with a population of something like 100,000 advantages, and one of these will be that
more than that of South Australia, obtains a given tariff will be more productive
nearly three times as much rerenue from than a protective tariff. But a free-trade
customs as South Australia does ? What- tariff will undoubtedly be more productive
ever tariff you may take, it will be open
to the revenue than the system of diverse
for people to say that its character either tariffs which exist at present, and the loss
is or is not free-trade, and we are further on free-trade which is gauged on the exist-
met with the difficulty that in speaking of ing tariffs might almost approximate to
a protectionist tariff it is impossible to re- being nominal. If that is so, the addition
duce yourideas to a common understanding. made to the cost of the federation, in con-
The right hon, member, Sir George Turner, nection with the loss of intercolonial
made this as a suggestion, which was, no
duties, may be exceedingly small, and if
doubt, intended at all events for the careful you bring that amount down to, say,
consideration of the Committee. Again, the £500,000, instead of its being put as it has
right hon. gentleman has referred to the been at millions of pounds, and if you add
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
177
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
l
on the new cost of federation, you will not knowledge, have really deepened our ignor-
liave to raise as the total cost of federa-
ance upon this question. I believe that if
tion a sum exceeding £1,000,000. I believe the heads of hon. members were trepanned,
that the sum would not exceed £600,000. there would be found printed upon their
A land-tax to raise that amount would brains a tabulated impression of the finan-
not require to be more than 1d. in the £, cial difficulties of federation.
as in the case of South Australia, where An Hon, MEMBER: Several tabulated
it produces about £100,000 a year; for, statements !
with the enormous taxing capacity of the Mr. GLYNN: Tabulated statements by
other colonies, it would certainly produce the dozen have been submitted to us, and
whatever is likely to be required, and it I have come to the conclusion that the re-
would have the great advantage that it sult of the erudition evidenced by them
would not be disproportionate. The value has been merely to extend by confusion
of the land which would be taxed would our ignorance of the financial question, so
be a perfect barometer of the state of the as practically to cause us almost to despair
industrial and commercial atmosphere.
of its solution. There is one matter which
The rise and fall of the wealth of the state I have already mentioned to the Com-
might be accurately gauged by the exist- mittee, and that is, that we have laid
ing condition of land values. But we are
rather too much stress upon the possible
still met with this difficulty, which shows disadvantages of federation from the Trea-
that we cannot exercise our individual surers' point of view. Because it is only
preferences in this matter : As your first from the Treasurers' point of view, and
object of federation, you have to bring the loss to the Treasurers may be a gain
about intercolonial free-trade, and in doing to the people. If that is not so, the very
that you have to pool your revenues, and basis of our argument for the adoption
that would have the effect that if you of federation will disappear. We have laid
wish to give back, on the amalgamation of
rather too much stress upon the pos-
your tariffs, the same revenue to the various sible disadvantages of federation from the
states as they have lost, you must keep up Treasurers' point of view, without lay-
the disadvantages of the existing system ing sufficient stress upon the advantages,
—that is, in order to gange what those some of which arise in connection with
losses are, you must keep up the border this very financial question. For instance,
customs officers. I
say then that you will we should save at once-and it is a mat-
not get rid of these difficulties, which ter to be taken into consideration in con-
necessarily follow from the extension of nection with the cost of federation--a
the principle of intercolonial free-trade sum which is now spent upon the col-
which faces you at the present time, with-
lection of intercolonial duties. The total
out finding out-and we do not wish to amountof the customs expenditure is some-
keep up these border officers—what the thing like £230,000; but a portion of
loss to each colony would be by the amal- that amount is the result of the system
gamation of the tariff. Therefore, at the of border duties which we propose to
present time we are, for these two reasons, abolish. Believing as I do in the advis-
practically stopped from the advocacy of ability of at once taking the bull by
a policy of direct taxation. I think it the horns, and leaving the settlement of
should be exceedingly gratifying to us the whole financial question to the federal
that we have swept away the mass of parliament, I would like to point out to
statistics, which, instead of adding to our
the Committee that we must not, in con-
178
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
sidering the advisability of doing so, too through Leiog wedged in between the other
nicely balance the possible loss and advan- colonies, and thus being able to charge
tage to each particular state, that is, the special rates.
loss and gain from the abolition of the An Hon. MEMBER :
border duties. On the figures submitted Mr. GLYNN: My contention is that we
by the statisticians, applying the propor- do not want selfishly to preserve special
tions paid by each state for the collection rates. At the present time we have special
of customs both from outside and inside advantages, because of the separation of
the various colonies, Tasmania, of course, the colonies. Instead of raising a small
would gain nothing, the gain to Western sum from our telegrams, we receive prac-
Australia would be exceedingly small, the tically as much as Victoria, whose popula-
gain to New South Wales would be largest, tion is nearly four times as large as ours ;
and the gain to Victoria would come next. and only £50,000 a year less than New
But we are not going to quibble about South Wales, whose population is four
these matters. Let me view the question times as large as ours.
The reason is we
again from the point of view of South have special rates, and we are enabled, by
Australia. I mention this solely to show our situation, to practically levý a tax
that there are losses and advantages which upon our neighbours. Hon. membersought
we must overlook. We must not sit down to approach the whole financial question in
in a huckstering spirit to tot them up in the spirit which we are prepared to assume
so many columns. Take the case of South in South Australia in regard to this matter
Australia. We have an advantage over of telegraphic revenue. Then in regard
the other colonies in the matter of tele- to the uniform tariff, and what is the very
graph revenue. In 1895 our telegraphic crux of the financial question, the possible
system-leaving altogether out of con- loss to each state of the amalgamation of
sideration the postal system--produced the revenue and expenditure, it is an
£89,000.
exceedingly strong point that Western
An Hoy, MEMBER :
Australia makes when she says that she
Mr. GLYNN: Of course, that is the at present receives something like £6 Ss.
I am dealing with the proceeds per head from her customs duties. I
of our telegraphic system to show that we think the bon. member, Mr. Hackett,
have an undue advantage there wbich we pointed out that, although this might seem
are willing to give up. In 1895, South abnormal, the regular receipts from cus-
Australia received £89,000 from telegrams toms in Western Australia had been some-
New South Wales, with a population of thing like £4 per head. That is shown by
something like four times as large as ours, the figures submitted to the Convention ;
received £126,000 from this source ; Vic- but I feel confident, knowing what has
toria, with a population not very far from occurred at Broken Hill, and as the result
four times as large as ours, £95,000 ; of every flush in the industrial progress of
Queensland, with a population exceeding any country, that the exceptional rate
ours by about 120,000, only £71,000. cannot be maintained, and that the other
An HON. MEMBER :
rate will not be maintained either. The
Mr. GLYNN: Of course not.
railway revenue of Western Australia will
were animated by an anti-federal spirit gauge the exceptional prosperity of that
-which we are not, we should oppose the country as accurately as, if not more ac-
abolition of the advantage which we get in curately than, the customs revenue, and
connection with our telegraphic system for that reason I think that its present
reason.
If we
[Mr. Glynn.
Cominonwealth of
179
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
prosperity will not continue. Four or five states, to be of any force in determining
years ago the railway revenue of Western the acceptance of federation. Why should
Australia was something like per cent., we not hand over the railways ? Has not.
and it rose by almost regular gradations that course the recommendation that, apart
until it is now something like 11 per cent, altogether from the question of abolishing
showing that there has been an amount of the surplus by taking over the debts and
importation into Western Australia which the railways, by amalgamation very large
cannot possibly be kept up. We find also economies might be effected ? I find here
that the prices of articles which in Cool- in the Constitution of Germany, with the
gardie and Kalgoorlie were formerly ex- extraordinary diversity of interests which
ceedingly high, have now, if we may rely existed in the case of the states which are
on the evidence of Western Australians, federated under that constitution, that uni-
sunk to a point lower than the prices in formity of rates was declared to be one of
Victoria and South Australia, showing the fundamental principles of the federa-
that there is a glut there. Consequently tion at the very start. The railway systems
you will have a cessation of importation, of all the states for the future were to be
and, therefore, a loss of revenue.
practically in the hands of the federation.
An Hon. MEMBER : The railway revenue Clause 42 of the Constitution states :
is not likely to fall off !
The governments of the federal states Lind
Mr. GLYNN : The railway revenue
themselves in the interests of general commerce
must depend upon the amount of supplies
to have the German railways managed as one
system, and for this purpose to have all new
carried over the line ; and if these supplies
lines constructed and equipped according to a
are not wanted they will not be shipped. uniform plan.
No mining population, unless it is a very
Clause 45 states :
large one, can absorb at the rate of con-
The empire shall have control over the tariff
sumption which has prevailed in Western
of charges. It shall endeavour to cause (1) uni-
Australia. I do not say this as an argu- form regulations to be speedily introduced on
ment against the claim for exceptional
all German railway lines.
treatment put forward by Western Aus- All the German railway lines to be con-
tralia ; but I say that her position is not structed are by these special powers in the
likely to continue abnormal, that it will constitution vested in or to come under
approximate towards that of the other the control of the federation. I advocate
colonies, and that she may trust the federal the taking over of the railways as a mat-
parliament to deal fairly with her con- ter of policy. By the saving we shall
ditions until that takes place. The same make more out of them as assets, and the
thing occurred in Canada, and the Cana- plan is one which has not been much dwelt
dian states have not suffered from it. To
. upon up to the present. The Indian railways
come to the question of the railways. The are now practically one system, and the
Right Hon. Sir George Turner has very result is that there is a revenue of about
properly said that, although we may be 6 per cent. The Belgian railways were
prepared to hand over the settiement of bought over by the state, and they have
the financial question to the federal par- since become more largely productive than
liament, we ought to offer some specific solu- formerly, with the result that the rates
tion, if one is open to us, and we ought have been reduced by something like 40
not to allow the fear which may operate
In Switzerland, also, there is a.
with some people, that the federal parlia- great and growing feeling in favour of the
ment will deal unjustly with particular purchase by the federal body of the local
per cent.
180
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
railways. The experience of. Pennsylvania the inter-state commission. How is such
also shows the economic effect of amalga- a provision to become of any effect? Is
mation. There are seventy-two railways the person who is called
the person who is called upon to pay the
there which are all under one management rate to urge the objection ? He is the
covering 8,000 miles of line. The Erie person who will reap the advantage, be-
system, which formerly consisted of forty cause, under preferential rates, the advan .
lines, has also been brought under one tages are given to shippers from outside,
management, and is another instance of and they are not likely to raise a point
economy. In England there have been which will tell against their own pockets.
several select committees dealing with rail- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What about
way matters, and their recommendations
the others who pay too high rates ?
have been in the direction of diminishing Mr. GLYNN: Internal rates are sup-
the evils of competition by amalgamation posed to be justified by the charge which
under one central management. Tyler, an should be made as a return for capital,
expert in railway matters, in the evidence and are therefore, by supposition, not too
he gave before one of the committees of high. External rates, on the other hand,
the House of Lords, stated :
are ridiculously low. They are preferen-
No one who is not actually engaged in the tial rates; they are penalties on the whole
working of the railways, or in watching the
people of the colony which grants them to
details of their working, can have any idea of
the unnecessary cost, labour, and obstruction to
outsiders for special trade benefits which
traffic which arise from diversities of interests tell for the advantage of the few. The same
and of managements of the various boards.
system of secrecy as to a specific or special
I come down now to the effects of the
rate would be impossible under this new
inter-state commission, because, if we do system ; therefore the definition of rates
not take over the railways, we shall have to be declared invalid will become a great
to fall back upon the other alternative as difficulty. I am justified in the expression
a cure for differential and preferential of this opinion, because in a work pub-
rates, that is, the establishment of an inter- lished in 1896, Shaler-I quote from his
state commission. Now, it is an additional History of America ”_states that in
argument in favour of the purchase of the America the evasions of the Inter-state
railways, that the Inter-state Commission in Commerce Act amount to something ap-
America was practically a failure. I will en proaching a general disregard of it, and he
deavour to give a few reasons, because I do goes on to amplify this in the manner sug-
not wish to rely merely on bare statements. gested by the following quotation :-
I will give a few reasons upon which I base It must be admitted, however, not only that
that assertion. In the first place, the
the law against unjust personal discriminations
sanction of the obligations of the law under
is not tboroughly enforced, but that it is not
clear that it can be thoroughly enforced without
which the inter-state commission carries on
some great increase in the powers and resources
its operations are fines and imprisonment. of the Inter-state Commission, or some radical
Now, I cannot see how you are going to
chavge in the organisation of railways.
imprison a state, nor do I see how you can The Hon. E. BARTON: That does not
levy a fine upon a particular state without show that the Inter-state Commission is a
such bickerings and jealousies as might bad thing. It shows that there is a bad
lead almost to a disruption of the union. act!
Again, it will be of no use merely to de- Mr. GLYNN : It shows this : that the
clare that the rate is invalid because it powers vested under the act of 1886, in the
is contrary to the principles laid down by Inter-state Commission, enormous though
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
181
[8 SEPT., 1897.
.
Australia Bili
}
1
they are—that will be admitted, I think take over the debts without arriving at a
-are being found inefficacious. There has common denominator, and we have debts
been a cry for the extension of these powers, at various rates of interest, with periods
and there has been, by various writers, a of currency, which are also different. If
declaration of opinion that the true solu- therefore, if you are to take over the debts,
tion is not by regulations under the act or you must convert them on paper to some
by the continuance of an Inter-state Com- common stock, atthecurrent rate of interest.
mission, but by the purchase of the railways That it is not an exceedingly difficult thing
by the government. It is contended that it to do is shown by this fact that the aver-
is only by this means that you can secure age period which the loans have to run,
that which the Inter-state Commission has, for the whole of the five states, starting
to a large extent, failed to accomplish. from 1897, is twenty-one years. The lowest
Here is another quotation from the same average—that of Victoria-is seventeen
writer. After pointing out the great dis-
years; the highest average, which is New
advantages inseparable from the existing South Wales, is twenty-two and a half
system, he says:
years' currency. So that, even if you do
Still more serious have been the difficulties
not do that, and if you take over the debts
arising out of the exemptions from the action of
as they stand, as the variation from the
the law of what is commonly called state traffic
in distinction from inter-state traffic.
average rates of duration of the loans, from
We propose here to keep up the distinction
the highest to the lowest, is very small,
between traffic confined within the limits
very little injury would result. Looking
of a particular state and traffic extending
at it again, from the point of view of in-
beyond those limits. This distinction has
terest, the average rate of interest paid by
been found, as the quotation I have read
the five states is 3.846; the highest-
shows, to destroy a large part of the bene-
Victoria-3.925; the lowest is Western
fits predicated as the result of the establish-
Australia, 3.801.
ment of the Inter-state Commission. As
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
regards the uniformity of rates, the writer
is a new loan with a long currency. When
to whom I have referred points out:
we renew the loans, which bear heavy rates
Notwithstanding the advance in consolidation,
of interest, we will get below that!
the management of the railroads in this colony
Mr. GLYNN: It is not a question of
presents to-day a diversity, a working at cross a number of loans maturing next year. It
purposes, a tendency to feverish and unhealthy
is a question of average duration of loans.
competition inconsistent with proper perform-
ance of the work of transportation, rendering
That must be determined by the average
railway regulation extremely difficult, and hurt- currency, and the average interest paid.
ful in many ways to the country as a whole.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : They
Now it might be asked what, under the are pretty well all alike.
circumstances, I recommend ? I recom- value on the London market is about the
mend the position taken up by thirteen or same !
fourteen members of the Adelaide Conven- Mr. GLYNN: I am glad that the right
tion—the position that the purchase of the hon. gentleman agrees with me substan-
railways is the only method of dealing with tially. If you take the loans as they stand,
the difficulty. In purchasing the railways making no distinction between their vary.
you take over the debt as part of the pay. ing terms of maturity and rates of interest;
ment; it cannot be done in the way set very little would happen, because their
up for the purpose of criticism by some average is approximate. The average rates
members of the Convention. You cannot of interest only differ about one-tenth
The average
182
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
between the highest and lowest; therefore, Right Hon. Sir George Turner.
very little injury would result by pooling further point out that it is the knowledge
the debts at once. As to the financial diffi- of solvency rather than solvency itself
culty with regard to the railways, what which operates in the mind of the English
we would really be doing would be to creditor when advancing money. A know-
enter into a partnership. When partners ledge of the solvency of South Australia
come in with different capitals, it is a could not be so easily obtained as a know-
question of balancing. The man who brings · ledge of the solvency of the whole federa-
in the largest amount of capital is credited tion. But I do say that the moment the
with a larger amount than the others. federation agrees to take over the debts,
Therefore, if you amalgamate the railways, and that becomes known to the English
even by purchase, it will only be a question public, it would have a practical value over
of settling a balance between one or two the present knowledge of the solvency of
states, which will not be particularly diffi- each state within the union.
cult. The same applies to the debts. If The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Does
you amalgamate the debts, it will still be not the English creditor know that sol-
merely a question of settling the balance, vency is secured at present?
because certain colonies have a compara- Mr. GLYNN: Undoubtedly the major-
tively small indebtedness. I believe that is ity do, but they all do not. The hon.
the case with Victoria. You would practi- member, Sir William Zeal, has interjected
cally cancel the debts. Therefore, I think that there is a difference in the price of the
there is no difficulty which we should be un- several stocks at present.
prepared to face in connection with taking The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
over the railways and debts at once. It is accounted for by the different terms of
has been very well pointed out this morn- the loans and the time that the stock has
ing in the Daily Telegraph, by Mr. Nash, to run.!
that you would practically get rid of about Mr. GLYNN: Not altogether. South
half the surplus at once by taking over the Australia floated a loan recently on the
railways and the debts. The receipts from principle of terminable annuities. It has
the railways amount to about half the in- twenty years' currency, with the right of
terest; and the surplus, after the other half redemption on notice. That broughta much
was paid, would be practically abolished. higher price than the last Western Aus-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Is that tralian loan. We must also take this into
the net railway receipts ?
account in connection with the price offered
Mr. GLYNN: Yes, it must be the case, for our loan that our indebtedness was £64
because the railway receipts are set off per head of the population against a com-
against the interest on the debts. The paratively small indebtedness per head in
proposition is not to separate the railway
Western Australia.
debt from other parts of the debt. The The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: You
lender, when he advances us money, does
must also take into account money market
not fix upon any particular asset. He conditions !
supplies his capital upon the credit of the Mr. GLYNN : I am simply dealing
whole community. The objection to this with it from the point of view of know-
principle of taking over the debts at once ledge of our solvency. There are different
has been urged with considerable force by degrees of knowledge with respect to each
the hon. member, Mr. Holder; but I think colony. It is absurd to think that West-
he has been practically answered by the ern Australia, with her abounding re-
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
183
[8 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
sources and her lower per capita debt place unless the stock had matured. I think
should get a lower price than South Aus- it is undoubted that you cannot possibly
tralia, when the latter offered terms less convert without giving a quid pro quo.
open to acceptance than those offered by Where then is the possibility of great
Western Australia. The hon. member, benefit accruing to the federation subse-
Mr. Symon, and the hon. member, Mr. quently by putting in the words "may
Holder, dwelt upon this point of the pos- convert," and leaving it optional, so as to
sibility of conversion to the advantage of prevent the possibility of stockholders get-
the federation if you do not go in for con- ting a premium out of the conversion ?
version at first. But there will be no The very moment it was decided to con-
greater possibility of conversion afterwards vert, the terms would be known, and the
than there will be by handing over the price of the stocks would be increased
debts at once. That there will be no pos- by the knowledge that federation had
sibility of a premium being given has been taken place, and of the implied guarantee
shown by Sir George Turner. There never of the solvency of the states within the
has been a conversion except when loans compass of the federation. I refer to this
matured.
because my right hon. friend, Sir George
The Hon. Sir GRAHAM BERRY: Oh, yes! Turner, very properly said that we ought
Mr. GLYNN : Certainly not on a large before we separate to offer some solution
scale. For instance, take the three great of the question which does not necessitate
conversion schemes which have been car- the handing over of the matter altogether
ried out in England. There was Pel- to the federal parliament. At all events,
ham's in 1749, in which case all the stock I, for one, will say this: that if no solu-
had matured. Then there was Goulburn's tion is adopted-and-I believe the taking
scheme in 1844, in which £300,000,000 over of the railways and the debts is the
were involved. The stock had all matured
proper one—I can see no danger that
in that case. Then there was Mr. Goschen's should deter us from allowing the matter
scheme in 1888. There was a conversion to be settled by the federal parliament.
of two classes of stock in that case. One They did it in America under circumstances
class had matured, and another was capable of prejudice much more difficult than those
of redemption on one year's notice. The which exist here. All their troubles arose
difficulty with which Mr. Goschen was from the taxation question. All the writers
faced was that in the case of £150,000,000 on the Constitution of America have shown
paymenton non-conversion should be raade that the mutual animosities of the states
at once.
If he offered a lower-priced stock were far more intense than any animosi-
and it was accepted, could he find the cash ties which could possibly exist between the
necessary to secure that stock which would states that would constitute a federation
be exchanged for the lower priced stock ? in Australia.
He took the risk of finding the money in The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: There .
the event of his offer being accepted. was no question of a surplus there !
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : They
Mr. GLYNN: Were they not bringing
offered in South Africa to convert stock into existence a federation of thirteen
not becoming due and which he was not states, some of whom had practically no
ready to pay off. It was not a large customs tariff, and no political organisa-
amount-about £10,000,000 !
tions, while others had very high political
Mr. GLYNN: At all events, except in organisations, and large customs tariffs ?
a few small cases, conversion has not taken Were they not bringing into existence a
184 Commonwealth of [8 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
federation in which the states who had not has in the scheme, I think it is pretty plain
those organisations and tariffs would have that the way is being made clear for us to
the very strong objection that they would settle this financial problem. There are
become part of a federation which would three ways of doing it. First of all we
be bound round at once by a high protec- ought to go on and tackle the work we
tive tariff?
commenced by putting the principle of the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That problem in the bill. Secondly, there is the
is not the dificulty here. The difficulty idea that we should leave the whole thing,
,
is the distribution of the surplus !
without defining any principles at all, to the
Mr. GLYNN: The difficulties of jeal federal parliament, and, thirdly, there is
ousy, and of the economic effect of the fiscal the compromise between the two--that we
policy operated quite as strongly in should adopt something like Mr. Deakin's
America, and yet did not deter them there idea, which has also been suggested by
from handing over the whole question to several others, namely, that we should leave
the federal parliament. At all events, as everything to the federal parliament after
has been very properly emphasised during we have provided for the security of the
the debate, I do not think there is any state treasuries by giving them a guarantee
possibility of injustice being done. It is of so much money-in perpetuity, if you
a solution by which we shall get rid of like; but I think that would be a very wrong
most of our difficulties, while it will not course—for the term, say, of five years,
render our constitution hide-bound from and then to reconsider everything. I am
the very start, and it is the one we should quite in accord with Sir George Turner
be prepared to adopt.
when he says that to leave everything to
The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania) the federal parliament is open to the very
[12:45]: In response to the intimation of gravest objections. When I left the Tas-
the leader of the Convention that those manian Parliament I was not of opinion
members who are not on the Finance Com- that it would be particularly wise or ex-
mittee should ventilate the points which pedient to leave everything to the federal
they think worthy of discussion, I desire parliament; but I formed the impression
to say a few words on one or two matters that we should perhaps have to do that. My
which face us in this complex financial friend, the Hon. B. S. Bird, who is one of
problem. I desire to thank Sir George our ablest men in Tasmania, and whom it
Turner for his very practical speech, and is well known was a member of the Con-
I think we should also be very grateful to vention of 1891, when I expressed that
our friends, Mr. Reid and Mr. Holder, for view, immediately interjected that leaving
one or two sentences that filled me, at all everything to the federal parliament would
events, with hope and with comfort. Mr. mean taking a leap in the dark. I an-
Reid told us that he thought more favour- swered that interjection by saying that it
ably of a sliding scale now than he did would, I thought, be taking a leap with
when he left Adelaide, and if we could not the light around us, as the federal parlia-
fix up a financial scheme upon that sliding ment would have before it all the true facts
scale, or upon some modification of it, he and correct figures, which we have not, and,
was willing to leave everything to the therefore, would be able to settle the ques-
federal parliament. Mr. Holder told us tion with an advantage which we lack.
previously that the principle of the sliding But when you have said that, I think you
scale could not be wrong, and in view of have stated every advantage which the
the confidence which Sir George Turner federal parliament would have over this
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
185
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Convention in settling the matter. Let that federation will develop a better form
me add also the advantage on the part of government than our party and responsi-
of the federal parliament—that it would, ble government, and believing as I do
of course, be better able than this con- that there is not the same room in the
vention to say the exact time when we federal parliament for party politicians as
I could, with fairness and equity, commence there is in the state parliaments, I am
the distribution of the surplus customs bound to face this fact, that we shall have
duties on a per capita basis. But. having the party politician on this everlasting
given the federal parliament credit for question of free-trade and protection, a
these two advantages, I think there the leading feature in the federal parliament
advantages end. These are the reasons the moment its doors are open. But if
why I think it is fraught with danger you leave the whole financial problem to
to leave the matter to the federal parlia- the federal parliament you will create
ment: First, it is the duty of this Conven- party electorates and party would-be poli-
tion to do the work; secondly, the people ticians before the doors of the federal par-
cxpect it of us, and have sent us here that liament are open; and if you are going to
we may do it; and, thirdly, I feel the hold up a sliding scale to the people of the
greatest possible danger in asking the colonies without passing it into law, what
people of Australasia, who are composed will you have ? It is obvious that there is
of ardent federalists, of lukewarm federal- a difference in the wealth and consuming
ists, and anti-federalists, and who are com- power, and the spending power of the vari-
posed also of men like our hon. friend, the ous colonies. No mortal man can say when
Attorney-General of New South Wales, that will end. It may never end. There-
and Sir Julian Salomons, and other hon. fore, the sliding scale to a very great ex-
gentlemen, who may be described as the tent is a contribution from the richer colo-
absolute wreckers of federation-men who nies to the poorer colonies, and the people
say they are going to stump the country of the richer colonies may be very natur-
against the great movement
ally and properly asked, “Are you going
An Hon. MEMBER: And wreck them- to consent to absolutely hand over a part
selves !
of your revenue to the poorer colonies ?'
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Ithink they will At election times we all know what force
wreck themselves if they are going to try à cry of that kind would be certain to have.
to wreck federation. I think you are going If that is so, you will have every elector-
to put a weapon in their hands which ate in a rich colony like New South Wales
will be of the greatest use to them with --we may take the three colonies of New
the many lukewarm and anti-federalists South Wales, Queensland—which I hope
throughout the electorates, if you hold up will come in-and Western Australia as
to them the fact that we are incapable or
the three wealthier colonies, according to
incompetent to settle this financial prob- their customs revenue-you would have
lem, and that we are therefore going to every elector, who is a democrat and likes
leave it without any principles or any his own way, asking every candidate for
guiding star, so to speak, to the federal the federal parliament in those three
parliament. But the greatest objection of wealthier colonies, “ Are you in favour of
all, to my mind, is this : Although I am a per capita distribution ? Are you in
one of those who think with Sir Samuel favour of a sliding scale?" And I suppose
Griffith, and to a very great extent, in
in a weak momentve are all of us more
fact, entirely, with you, sir, in believing or less weak when we face the electors
P
186
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
-in a weak moment, perhaps, the candi- the language which my hon. friend, Mr.
dates, to a very great extent, would bind · Higgins, used yesterday. To some extent
themselves before they entered the federal it will be a disgrace to us unless we can
parliament, to vote in a particular way see our way out of this difficulty. Surely
-the way in which the electors wanted there is some way out of it; and instead
them to vote; the way in which self- of giving the Finance Committee a direc-
interest on their own side—and who can tion that we are going to leave it all to
blame them for looking after their self- the federal parliament, I hope that when
interest ?-would dictate that they should this debate is finished the Finance Com-
vote. Every elector in the small or poorer mittee will believe that it is their duty to set
colonies, if he was alive to his interests, arduously to work, as they did in Adelaide,
and the interests of his state, as he would until they have threshed out some good
be, what would he ask his candidate ? proposals for the consideration of this con-
Exactly the opposite question : will you vention. Now, allusion was made that the
favour the per capita distribution, and will question of trusting the federal parliament
you object to the distribution of the sur-
to some extent depended on how it should
plus on the basis of the collections. There- be constituted. I am not going into that
fore, the poorer colonies would endeavour question any more than to say this: When
to send, and in most cases they would send, I am talking about the constitutional clauses
delegates to the federal parliament who of the bill I dislike entirely the word
would be pledged and bound to do every “compromise," because I do not quite
possible thing they could to get a per capita understand, although you sometimes have
distribution, in order that they might win to do it, compromising a principle. The
a contribution from their richer neighbours question of equal representation in the
to their own treasuries. For these reasons, senate, the question of the referendum, and
unless they are all moonshine--and I do what control you are going to subject the
not think they are-I think there are great will of the people to, are more or less. prin-
dangers in leaving the matter entirely to ciples, which we ought to determine from
the commonwealth to determine. If you the books we have in front of us, from the
could leave it to the federal parliament four constitutions we have to guide us, and
with some guiding principle where you from the experience of mankind in work-
would have that eminently satisfactory tri- ing out those four constitutions. Those
bunal, the high court of the commonwealth are what I call principles. I do not quite
at your back, whose eminent judges would understand compromising these principles,
be able to take evidence from their statis- except so far as it may be we will have to
ticians and commercial men and people all draw closer to one another, and give and
over the commonwealth ; if you had that take, and then we do come back to the word
at your back to see that the federal parlia- - compromise;" but I hate the word "com-
ment carried out the principles which this promise” in reference to what I conceive the
Convention laid down, then there would framing of the niachine you are going to
not be very much objection. But if you make to carry on your federal government.
are going to leave the thing to the federal It would be just like when you were ask-
parliament, withont any guiding principle, ing one man, who has a particular kind of
without any appeal, without any hope of railway brake, and another man, who has an
getting an error rectified, except by the utterly different kind of railway brake, if
parliament itself, then I do see some danger somebody were to suggest that you should
in that course.
I am inclined to adopt try and have a compromise between the
[The IIon. FI. Dobsonr.
Commonwealth of
187
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
two, and get one man to alter his brake ture to say, will require the most earnest
and the other to alter his a little, and to attention of the members of the Committee.
take half the quantity you want from each [The Chairman left the chair at 1 p.m. The
of them. Now, sir, on the terms and con- Committee resumed at 2 p.m.]
ditions on which you are to go into this The Hon. H. DOBSON: When we ad-
federal parliament, which means the finan- journed for luncheon, I was quoting a sen-
cial clauses, there I do understand the tence from a speech of the Premier of
meaning of the word "compromise.” You Victoria, to the effect that the fight at the
must have a compromise. You there make first election of the federal parliament
a bargain ; and although it is very neces- would be in reference to free-trade and
sary that we should all show a federal spirit, protection. Mr. Holder told us that what
at the same time we are going to make a we required was a broad revenue-produc-
bargain. We are going to lay down terms ing tariff, and I am inclined to think that
and conditions, and these are the terms and the latter announcement is more correct,
conditions forming the bargain which it is because, from the very circumstances of the
our duty to frame, and not leave to another
case, the federal parliament, if it does
body. Hon. members will see that I am its duty, will be compelled to look to a
trying to draw a distinction between com- revenue-producing tariff, and if it strays
promising principles and compromising the away into the paths of protection, and
terms of a bargain which, in the latter case, imposes duties which it thinks will help
I think we must compromise more than we its local manufactures or industries, it is
ought to do in the former. I think, from certain that Tasmania, and some of the
the language we have heard from other other colonies, may be left without the
speakers, we will find that we will have no revenue which they require. We only
better scheme put before us than the slid- have to look at the figures to see that that
ing scale which is contained in the bill, is apparent. The tariff which the common-
and the whole of that sliding scale must wealth would produce if collected upon
absolutely depend on the accuracy of your the Tasmanian tariff, would be £7,430,000,
year-test. I am inclined to think that we whereas if it were collected on the very
are making a very woful mistake in fancy- much lower tariff of Western Australia, it
ing that we can build up that sliding scale would be £4,712,000. Therefore it is per-
with anything like justice to the people fectly certain that the federal parliament
of these colonies, if we make the first year must devote their energies to framing a
after the imposition of the uniform tariff a tariff which which will produce revenue ;
test of the slįding scale. It is absolutely but if it is tried to frame a tariff which
the worst year we could choose. We might will be protective that adds another argu-
make it one, two, or three years—I do not ment to the admirable arguments used by
know, and I am hardly capable to say; the Premier of Victoria, that there is a
but I do think that if you make one blun- very great danger in leaving the adjust-
der there, if you are out in the slightest ment of the finances to the federal parlia-
degree in fixing the test amount, which is ment. In reference to the question of con-
to be the amount up to which the poorer version, it appears to me that some little
colonies are to rise, and from which the misunderstanding hạs arisen. Whilst it
richer colonies are to descend, you will, in- is quite true that we find no case in the
deed, make a blunder which may involve books where debentures have been con-
the grossest injustice to some of the tax- verted which have a long time to mature,
payers of federated Australia. That, I ven- it is equally certain that you can convert
188
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
long-dated debentures, and do it on a must have, a sinking fund, you cut down
sound basis, if you provide a sinking-fund, the profit on your conversion scheme from
so as not to put on to posterity the bonus £1,000,000 to £500,000. I think you
which you have to pay to induce the holder may safely put it at that.
to convert, and exchange his stock at a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Not
high rate of interest for stock at a low immediately!
rate of interest.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Yes, immedi-
Mr. McMILLAN: You may, if the holder
ately.
is reasonable ; but you cannot say for
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Does
certain !
the hon. member say that £500,000 will
The Hon. H. DOBSON: You cannot
be docked immediately?
say for certain ; but if you offer a man a
The Hon. H. DOBSON: The profit of
quid pro quo, and better security in addi-
£500,000 will go immediately if you con-
tion, and a larger and interminable class
of stock, there are some reasons which
vert immediately. I am pointing out that
if
may induce the holder of the debenture to
wait until the debentures mature,
you
it will not be for thirty-five years in some
convert. The reason I have alluded to
this matter is to draw the attention of the
cases, and whenever debentures mature, it
Finance Committee and I think it re-
goes without saying that you do not con-
quires their earnest attention to the
vert them, but exchange them, and pay
them off with debentures at a lower rate
question as to what security a united Aus-
of interest. Most of us, in our speeches to
tralia is going to offer to the investors of
the electors, have pointed out—Sir Philip
England. I tried in vain to get some in-
formation from Mr. Goschen on this point. Fysh also has pointed it out—that there
Mr. Walker tried, with better success, to
is a way of converting your debentures at
gain information on the point from Mr.
George, who for thirty years has been
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Does
the manager of a large bank in London,
Mr. George advocate that in his letter ?
and who must have had a great deal of ex-
The Hon. H. DOBSON: He does not
perience in floating loans, and who, there-
say it cannot be done ; I think he says it
fore, ought to know something about con-
can be done.
version. He tells us, after consulting
An Hon. MEMBER: How can it be done?
experts, that you ought, in addition to The Hon. H. DOBSON: By giving the
your customs duties, to hypothecate some
holder of the debenture a proper quid pro
part of your railway revenue as addi- quo. You save a lot in interest, and at
tional security
It appears to me that the same time you add to the debt of the
the Finance Committee will make a great
commonwealth, and in adding to the debt
blunder in framing their financial clauses of the commonwealth, you have a financial
unless they seriously consider what is the
transaction which is unsound. In order to
best position for us to occupy in the Eng- get rid of that unsoundness, you take part
lish market when we come to convert; be-
of the saving you make in interest, and
cause if they adjust the financial clauses pay it into the sinking fund.
to suit all the states, and do not adjust An Hon. MEMBER : How can you force
the other clauses so as to give us the base a man to take what he is not agreeable to
of a conversion scheme, they will make a take?
blunder which may cost us £500,000. If
The Hon. H, DOBSON: You do not
you are going to have, as I think you force him to take anything. But by giving
once.
$
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
189
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
him a quid pro quo—a sovereign for a leave you a saving of interest and give you
sovereign--and by giving him intermin- sufficient to establish a sinking fund, it
able stock, and the better security of the will be a sound transaction.
commonwealth, you give him a slight Mr. MCMILLAN : It is a pure assump-
advantage.
tion that you will convert !
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
The Hon. H. DOBSON: No; it is an
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I quite agree assumption based on a very great fall in
that that is so; and, therefore, I am in- the rate of interest.
clined to think that the quid pro quo we An Hon. MEMBER: It is a pure fallacy!
will have to give will be a little more than The Hon. H. DOBSON: I do not think
you otherwise would give. In answer to it is. It would be if the rate of interest
the Premier of Victoria, I would point out
had not fallen greatly. But the rate of
that we all know that the demand for
interest has fallen so greatly, and the
consols is increasing, and that the supply demand for interminable stock and good
is decreasing. Why? The supply is in- securities has become so great that the
creasing because the British Government
difference in the rate of interest will enable
are paying off the national debt at the
you to get rid of the sum you add to your
rate of £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 a year.
capital and at the same time give you some
The demand is increasing, because all the
reduction in your own interest.
numerous friendly societies of England,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: If a
the savings banks, and other institutions,
man gets £1,000 interest now you will
are increasing their wealth and funds,
have to give him an equivalent amount of
and want more and more of these consols.
stock to give him £1,000 a year interest
Therefore, I think that, in three or four
or he will not take it!
years' time, after the federal constitution
The Hon. H. DOBSON: That
has been established, we shall find that
so. Then, a great many of us have been
there is a demand in London at a low rate
telling our electors what is not the case,
of interest for good stocks, where the
because we all know perfectly well that,
security is undoubted.
apart from federation altogether, each
The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner:
colony could quietly wait until its deben-
That will not affect present loans, because tures matured and then float a new loan,
they are already held; but it will affect
to pay them off, at a much lower rate.
new loans.
It will not benefit present I have always understood that a large
holders !
majority of the members of the Conven-
The Hon. H. DOBSON: It might bene- tion, in speaking to the country, have said
fit them if you could offer them a fair quid that they thought some kind of conver-
pro quo, and if the saving is so great that sion scheme was feasible, with long-dated
you can save £500,000, and at the same debentures. I am inclined to think that
time provide a sinking fund. I agree that it is feasible now; but what I desire to
if
you
have to add to the debt of the com- call the attention of the Finance Com-
monwealth to pay the quid pro quo the mittee to is that they must be
very
careful
transaction would be so unsound that there in framing their financial clauses, or we
would be an end of it. As Sir Philip must be very careful in framing our con-
Fysh has pointed out, however, you add to stitution, not to do anything which will
the capital debt of the various colonies; detract from the additional security which
but if the reduction of interest will still we all hope the commonwealth will give
may be
190
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
to the English investor. If you ask the consolidated stock so long as the Imperial
English investor to take your consolidated Parliament refuses to pass an act authoris-
Australian stock, and he is to have no ing trust funds to be invested in it. I do not
security whaterer but your customs duties, , say that the suggestion in this pamphlet is
I am inclined to think that you are mak- a particularly good one; but I do say that
ing a mistake; and I am also inclined to we, as statesmen, ought to adopt any
the opinion that you will not convert your feasible scheme we can, to get rid of that
debentures on any terus making it worth blot on our credit, for no doubt it is a blot
your while to do it, and this is the opin: on our credit. I understood the right hon.
ion Mr. George seems to hold. Mixed up member, Sir George Turner, to say that,
with this question is the most important when the commonwealth was established,
question to which the right hon. mem- all future borrowings on behalf of the
ber, Sir George Turner, has alluded, namely state-for state railways, and so forth-
--that of making our consolidated Aus- he was inclined to think, should be made
tralian stock such an admirable security through the commonwealth. Here, I think,
that the Imperial Parliament will pass the right hon. gentleman will see that he
the necessary act to enable trust moneys is getting rather into a difficulty. If you
to be put into it. Now, as far as I are going to leave all your assets—land,
can understand the reasons which induced and so forth to the states, and if you are
the Imperial Parliament before to refuse going to leave them your magnificent rail-
that, or which induced her Majesty's way revenue, and are going to give over
ministers not to suggest it-I forget nothing but the customs to the common-
which was the fact that they did not wealth
consider the security quite sufficient, and The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Cus-
they did not think that trust funds in toms, and unlimited power to tax !
England ought to be lent to people 12,000 The Hon. H. DOBSON: Is it expedient
miles off when the English people have no or wise, under those circumstances, to say
control whatever over the revenue. I have that you will leave borrowings for state
read a pamphlet—I forget whom it was by purposes only to the commonwealth? It
--in which it was said that if this were appears to me that that is rather mix-
an insuperable objection to the Imperial ing up the affairs of the commonwealth
authorities consenting to enact that trust with those of the state, and that while in
funds could be lent upon Australian securi- one clause we have set forth all the things
ties, a scheme might be adopted whereby that are to be delivered over to the common-
your customs duties alone might be hypo- wealth, we are now delivering over to the
thecated--- that they might be received by commonwealth another thing which is far
an Imperial officer at home who would
more important than all the others put
simply deduct the £5,000,000, or whatever together.
sum it was, for interest, and transmit the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : You
balance to Australia
have to chose the less of two evils. You
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We cannot very well have two stocks running
would never agree to that!
at the same time. It would reduce the
The Hon. H. DOBSON: If it would get
value of state stock enormously if you
rid of all the difficulties and troubles of the did !
question of security, it is worth thinking The Hon. H. DOBSON: This is a matter
about. We will all admit, I am sure, that to which I think the Convention has de-
there will be, to some extent, a blot on our voted very little attention, and I think we
**
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
191
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
shall have to devote a great deal of atten- provision in regard to this smallest colony
tion to it, for it is a most important ques- of the group, and will have to do it in
tion, which is at the very root of the pro- terms that are absolutely fair and just to
gress we all hope to make. I have only yourselves. They are these : We are join-
one or two more words to say—that is, ing with colonies which certainly are richer
that two colonies will, I think, have to be than we are, and whose spending powers
specially provided for. Now, although we are greater than ours, and, therefore-I
all seem favourable to the adoption of the will not say—their extravagance; but if
sliding scale, either with or without modi- their spending powers are greater they
fications, I cannot help thinking that it spend more money in keeping up the ser-
will hardly suit our friends from Western vices of the state. As we are able to do,
Australia. I think that the words used we administer our state departments with
by the right hon. member, Sir John
more economy than the larger colonies do,
Forrest, were rather misquoted in the and, consequently, if you ask us to join
newspaper this morning wben it said that with you and share in your larger or more
he very generously stated that he wanted extravagant expenditure-if I may use
no concession or no special favour. The the term--then of course we will lose
right hon. gentleman did say that, but money which we cannot afford to lose, and
provided that you return to each colony I think that that will have to be got over
the amount of revenue which it collects
by putting in one or two lines providing
less the federal expenses.
that for the first five years at all events
An Hon. MEMBER: It would not answer you shall not ask Tasmania to contribute
for the other colonies !
more towards the federal expenditure than
The Hon. H. DOBSON: It would not
she contributes now for her own expenses.
answer altogether the federal spirit; it
That is to say, if we conduct our depart-
would not answer so well as the sliding
ments at a certain rate per head, do not
scale ; but if you adopt this it is absolutely
ask us to contribute more at first to the
certain that you will have to make special federal finances. Another point is that we
provision to do justice to our friends from are now making a profit of about £15,000
Western Australia. I also desire to point
from the postal and telegraphic depart-
out that I think that to some extent you
ments. The hon. member, Sir Philip
will have to make one or two special pro-
Fysh, said that if we lost £50,000 a year
visions in favour of the colony which I
it was equivalent to New South Wales
represent. The sliding scale gets rid of the losing £300,000, but I would point out to
book-keeping after one or two years, and
the hon. gentleman that he is a very great
the sliding scale would suit Tasmania.
deal under the mark. I look upon the
The Hon. J. HENRY : It would not!
great colony of New South Wales as being
about ten, twelve, or fifteen times as wealthy
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I understood
and more able to pay than Tasmania, and
that my hon. friend, Mr. Henry, was in if we have to give up £15,000 a year profit
favour of the sliding scale.
from our postal and telegraph departments
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : It would
it is equivalent to this colony giving up
suit us well after five years !
from £150,000 to £200,000 a year in one
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I have just state item; therefore, as a matter of fair
come to the point to which the hon, mem- play and justice, I think we are entitled
ber, Sir Philip Fysh, has called my atten- to ask the Convention to consider that
tion. You will have to make some special profit which we make as against the loss
192
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1997.]
cession.
which some of the states make in conducting she will come in. I desire to say, with all
their postal and telegraphic departments, deference to the Right Hon. Sir George
because it is perfectly certain that the sum Turner, that in framing a constitution we
of £15,000 a year is a very great deal to ought to think of all the colonies; we
Tasmania. It is more than the whole of ought to think of the colony that is not
the revenue we receive from our tax upon with us. Although nothing would induce
incomes derived by personal exertion.
me to favour a proposal to adjourn now,
Therefore, hon. members will see that or one hour before it is necessary to do so,
Tasmania may demand some special con- yet when we have come to the end of the
One word more in reference to three weeks when we must either adjourn
the position of Queensland. I have always or close our proceedings, I shall be in
been of the opinion that it would be a very favour of adjourning if I can see any rea-
great mistake, if we could avoid it, to start sonable hope in any ministerial utterance
our commonwealth without every colony from our friends in Queensland that after
joining it at the same moment.
Just as
an adjournment they will come in and help
surely as you leave out one colony, and us to frame a constitution.
especially a colony which has had no hand Mr. JAMES (Western Australia)[2.24]:
in the framing of the constitution, so surely I do not for a moment intend to propose
will the public men of that colony-its poli. any scheme the effect of which will be to
ticians, and its newspaper writers—instead bring Queensland into the Convention. I
of applying criticism of a generous and think it would be entirely wrong to permit
fair character to the constitution, apply the absence of any one colony to interfere
criticism of a hostile and ungenerous char- with the progress of the movement towards
acter. Whenever a man has an opportu- federation. We are assured by some parties
nity to join, with his eyes open, an associa- in Queensland that they are thoroughly
tion or a society, and he does not join it, attached to this movement; other parties
he always finds very good reason, or he there say that they are not attached to it.
thinks he does, why the society is not I think it would be wise if we in this Con-
worth joining, and why he is justified in
vention extended the warmest sympathy
his own eyes, and in the eyes of the world, and consideration towards Queensland, and,
in standing out from it.
having shown that sympathy and con-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL; That was sideration, we got on with the practical
not the experience of Canada, at all work before us. So much sympathy and
events !
generous consideration has been shown
The Hon. H. DOBSON: One or two of towards Western Australia, that one is
the Canadian states joined the Dominion invited in dealing with the financial part
of Canada only quite lately, and I would of the scheme before us to ask for a con-
point out to my hon. friend that one of cession which, in my humble opinion, is
the states has not joined the Dominion to necessary if Western Australia is to come
this day.
into the federal union. I am not com-
An Hon. MEMBER: They are the losers petent to deal with the merely financial
aspect of this matter, the aspect which
The Hon. H. DOBSON: That may be involves the consideration and discussion
so; but if Queensland has no hand what- of more or less unreliable statistics. I only
ever in framing the constitution, and if wish to say a word in connection with the
she does not enter the commonwealth when political aspect of it, and to express my
it is established, no man can predict when thorough approval of the speech delivered
by it!
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
193
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
by the Right Hon. Sir George Turner this selves a settled agricultural population.
morning. I cannot understand how it is We have not been blessed with good coun-
possible to remove the difficulty in connec- try as you here in the eastern colonies are
tion with the financial question by putting blessed. We have had enormous difficulties
it on to the shoulders of someone else. The to contend against, and now when the oppor-
difficulty does not exist because it has tunity has arrived, and we have a chance
been crystallised into part of the bill ; to secure to ourselves the benefit and
but as it exists, it has to be faced before enjoyment of some of that wealth which
we can have a federal union. It seems the colony yields, it is difficult, however
idle to attempt to, as it were, pasteurise strongly one may be attached to federa-
the question, to free it altogether from tion, to hand over for ever the powers
the germs of future discord by passing it which have come to us after sixty years of
on to the federal parliament to deal with. existence. Hon. members no doubt will
It has to be dealt with, and the difficulty agree with me when I say that our gold,
we have now in connection with it is, not valuable though it may be, will be useless
so much in dealing with the details of it, unless we can succeed, while we have it,
but in a want of confidence-perhaps un- in settling upon our lands a good agri-
worthy of us—in the central parliament cultural population. For years and years
which is to have control of our affairs in past, as our good friends from South Aus-
the future. If we have that complete con- tralia know, a great deal of money has
fidence in the federal parliament which we been made in Western Australia and spent
must have before we can trust them with elsewhere.
the determination of this important ques-
Mr. SOLOMON : A great deal of money
tion, will it not be sufficient for us to pass
has been made elsewhere and spent in
an act saying that we shall have a senate Western Australia !
with certain powers, and a lower house with Mr. JAMES : I am not aware of it, and
certain powers, and then to hand over to I have lived a long time in Western Aus-
them the settlement of this vexed question, tralia.
giving them absolute power to do what
Mr. SOLOMON: The hon. member has
they like? If we can afford to hand over
not been a shareholder in many companies
to them the settlement of this vexed ques-
then !
tion, I do not know any other power more
Mr. JAMES : I should be very glad if
important which we should refuse to give the shareholders in Perth had made as
them. So far as Western Australia is con- much money in Western Australia as the
cerned, we asked for this concession in shareholders in Adelaide have made there.
no mercenary spirit. It is not because we We have the opportunity now, and it is
desire to make money out of the remaining not only because we want to develop West-
colonies of the group, but because we de-
ern Australia for our own selfish purposes
sire to work out our own development. that we ask for a concession. We say that
For years pastas a matter of fact ever if we succeed in developing Western Aus-
since Western Australia was established tralia, and in settling there an agricultural
-we have had this difficulty to face, that, population, we are adding a new province
despite the work which we have done there, to the commonwealth ; but we shall not
the money which has been made in the succeed in this unless we have the power
colony has been spent somewhere else. of levying customs duties. At the present
We have found enormous difficulty in moment, with the assistance of customs
settling the country, in securing to our- taxation, we can encourage the settlement
194
Australia Bill
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
of an agricultural population upon the land. tries. That which we want to do is to get
During the last twelve months an enor- people on to the soil, and now that the.
mous increase has taken place in this direc- opportunity has arisen to do this we do not
tion. Thousands of acres of land have want it taken from us. There is nothing
been opened up, and thousands of people narrow in that view of the question. After
have come to our shores and settled down all, ten or twenty years in thelife of a nation
there. It has been the want of population is a very short time indeed. If we approach
that has been our drawback in the past. a question like this under the impression
This has isolated us, and has made us a that ten years is an important period of
small, and, to that extent, a narrow-minded time, then I say, with the utmost respect,
country. If we could attract to our shores that we are not capable of dealing with a
a great many of those whom you have the question so great as is that involved in this
good fortune to have in the eastern colo- Commonwealth Bill. If such a concession
nies, not only would it be a great assist- as that which I have suggested, is not
ance to Western Australia, but it would granted, then I think Western Australia
add a province to the commonwealth. will stand out until she can secure a more
Therefore I think we are entitled to ask settled and larger population. But whether
for this concession. Unless you give to you grant this concession or not, so far as
Western Australia the right to impose its the eastern colonies are concerned, they
own customs duties for the next five or will not have the benefit of the trade of
ten years, I venture to think that that Western Australia. We do not ask you to
colony will not come into the federation. accept a burden for our sakes. But those
That feeling has marvellously strengthened of us who are attached to federation say
over there in connection with this ques- this, "Leave a side door by which we can
tion. It is not merely a question of money. come in. Do not throw obstacles in the
I am vain enough to believe that if a sacri- way of our entrance.” No one can tell
fice has to be made, Western Australia is what may happen in ten years' time. In
broad-shouldered enough, as the diagram that time Western Australia may become
before you shows, to bear the sacrifice, so greater and infinitely more populous than
far as mere money is concerned. But that both New South Wales and Victoria put
is not the point. It is vital to the future together. Those on the western side of the
development of Western Australia that, continent might then take up a position
for five or ten years, she shall collect such somewhat similar to that taken up by some
duties under a system of protection as will good people in New South Wales at present
assist, as far as is possible, the agricultural when they say, “We can get along very
industry of the colony. Provision might be well, independently of federation. We do
made, if this concession were granted us, not want it." I say that Western Australia
that no duties levied in the western colony might assume the position I have indicated
should be less than the duties levied in the in ten years--I do not at all think that it
commonwealth. That would be quite right. will--but at the same time that which we
Or we might take a still more limited ask involves no injury to those from whom
power, and agree to the levying of taxation we ask it. We are willing to give the federal
on certain articles, because we have no anthority power to interfere in all matters
desire to build up industries other than except in the matter of customs; but we
those which will directly settle people on do ask for that concession, and unless we
the soil. We have no desire to have a pro- get it, the probability is that our entrance
tective system applied to all sorts of indus- to the union will be delayed for some
[Mr. James.
Commonwealth of
195
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
years. I am not asking for any conces- We do not want to levy duties in connec-
sion which is unreasonable, having regard tion with foreign products, but in connec-
to the great object to be gained. It may tion with agricultural products; and we
be said that you gain nothing if Western want to do this solely for the purpose of
Australia does come into the federal union settling people on the soil, and, as I bave
upon these terms; but do you not secure that pointed out, adding a new province to the
which above all things you desire to secure, commonwealth. Unless we have this
the operation of those forces moral, social, power, not only shall we not come into
and political—which above all things are the the federation until we have settled people
most valuable fruits of that federal union on the soil ; but I question-strongly at-
into which we wish to enter. For these tached though I am to the cause whether
reasons, I hope the Committee will take
I myself would advocate any entrance to
into serious consideration the question a federal union which would have the effect
whether they cannot give to Western Aus- of destroying the one opportunity we have
tralia the right to control customs taxa- had for sixty years of securing a popula-
tion for a period of, say, ten years.
tion for Western Australia.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSI:
Mr. SOLOMON (South Australia)[2.36]:
Mr. JAMES : Undoubtedly, and that
I have no desire to protract this debate
is the question involved. Surely the hon.
in Committee ; but I do think that the
member must know that it is the competi-
Finance Committee appointed by the Con-
tion in intercolonial produce which will
vention has so far received very little in-
injure us in connection with the desire I'dication of any definite course of action
am emphasising-namely, the desire to
which they are expected to take. I was
settle people on our soil. Perhaps the
somewhat pleased to hear yesterday from
hon. member will tell me where the con-
the lips of the Right Hon. the Premier
cession will be if we are to have intercolo-
of New South Wales that, as far as the
nial freetrace? I am asking for a con-
delegation from this colony is concerned,
cession.
be, as representing that delegation, or
the bulk of it, was willing to trust the
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: It strikes at
future parliament of a federated Austra-
the very foundations of a federation !
lia, not only in matters of minor detail,
Mr. JAMES : I repeat that I am ask-
but also in this great and important ques-
ing for a concession. I have used the
tion of finance, and the distribution of
word "concession” all through, and where
any probable surplus. Following upon
is the concession, as far as we are con-
that speech, the tone of which was cer-
cerned, if you are going to have intercolo-
tainly conciliatory and cheering to most
nial free-tracle?
members of this Convention, we had to-
The Hon. Sir P. O. Fysi: I thought day a speech by the Right Hon. the Pre-
the hon. member was asking for a conces- micr of Victoria, which at once swept
sion in the shape of power to collect duties
away all, or a very great deal of the hope-
on foreign products, as Sir Samuel Griffith
fulness we had taken from the address of
suggested !
the Right Hon. G. H. Reid, and which
Mr. JAMES : I make no qualification threw in our path all the difficulties which
of that kind at all. We wish power to
have ever been mentioned by any enemy
levy duties having for their object the to the scheme of federation.
settlement of people on the soil. Foreign Mr. JAMES : The difficulties are there,
products can come in as they do now. and they have to be faced !
196
Austrairau Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. SOLOMON : There is something once, and that the Finance Committee
to be said for the hon. member's candour shall present something that may be placed
in mentioning the whole of these difficul- before the people. In this morning's paper
ties to the members of the Convention. we find another solution of this financial
But there is such a thing as playing a game problem given to us by a gentleman who
of cards fairly, and there is such a thing, bears the character of being one of our
especially if it be a game of euchre, as deepest thinkers on the financial problem.
giving to the other side all the “bowers." I refer to Mr. Nash. Although his solu-
This may not have been the intentional tion of the problem is not a new one, com-
attitude of the hon. gentleman, but it was ing, as it does now, in the light of all the
certainly the result of his speech this morn- difficulties that have been raised, and all
ing. He certainly put into the hands of the the objections to previous solutions, it cer-
enemies of federation in New South Wales tainly seems to me to be well worth think-
every possible argument which could be put ing of. The hon. member, Mr. Glynn, dealt
there by the worst wrecker of federation. very clearly with this question of the debts
I admit with the Right Hon. Sir George and the railways, and the advisability of
Turner that there is a great deal to be said the federal parliament taking over both the
in favour of our framing some definite pro- debts and the railways. He dealt with the
posals in regard to the financial position, question from several standpoints. Espe-
and that although it may smooth over the cially among his arguments may be noted
difficulty to say that we will trust the the one that taking over all the railway
federal parliament to deal with this sub- services would do away with all the diffi-
ject entirely, it will, as the right hon. mem- culties and all the jealousies in connection
ber stated, give the enemies of federation with the question of an inter-state com-
a considerable argument. As the right mission. I think we may consider that
hon. member pointed out, if this Conven- taking over the railway systems would
tion, chosen by the whole of the colonies, piean a great deal more than that. We
cannot frame any equitable system of deal- know that at the present time, taking the
ing with the finances, the enemies of feder- statistical figures, which I think can be
ation may ask, “How will it be possible relied upon, that the railways of the colo-
for the future federal parliament to deal
nies as a whole mean a loss to the re-
with the question ?" I admit that there venues of the different colonies in round
is a great deal in that argument. But figures of £1,000,000 per annum. If these
now in this Convention we are faced with cut-throat rates which we have heard so
precisely the same difficult problem that much about in the Finance Committee and
the Finance Committee were faced with
in this Committee could be done away
when the Convention sat in Adelaide. with by the administration of all the rail-
There we found that, although the smaller ways being placed in the hands of the
colonies were prepared to make consider- federal parliament, there is little doubt
able concessions, the two larger colonies that the bulk of this loss of £1,000,000 per
were the ones with which the greatest annum might be easily made up without any
difficulties occurred. We have had from great tax upon the producers or the people
the Premier of New South Wales a decla- who use our railways. In fact, £1,000,000
ration that he is prepared to trust the divided amongst all the colonies over a
federal parliament. We have had from the year's traffic on the various lines, would re-
Premier of Victoria a declaration that he present an infinitesimal advance in the rates
rather desires to deal with this matter at for the haulage of goods and for passenger
[Mr. Solomon.
Commonwealth of
197
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
:
traffic. Then, again, we must consider this tained in the Votes and Proceedings of the
branch of the subject in connection with the last meeting of the Convention, I find that
handing over of the debts of the common- during the next three years, between 1897
wealth. Here we find opposition raised and 1900, we have colonial debts matur-
to handing over the whole of the debts to ing to the amount of £9,000,000. These
the federal parliament on the ground that debts at the present time are bearing in-
the federal parliament can do no better in terest at 4, 41, 5, and 6 per cent., so that
the way of converting those debts than within the next three years we can cer-
the states themselves can when the debts tainly look forward to the federal parlia-
mature. I venture to think, however, that ment being able to reissue that amount of
if the whole of the debts are placed in the £9,000,000 of stock at a saving of at least
hands of the federal parliament to deal 14 per cent.
11 per cent. That is to say, within three
with, an immense saving can be made in years from the present date sufficient of
the way of interest, not an immediate our debts will mature to enable the federal
saving certainly, because, as the hon. niem- parliament to make a saving of £135,000
ber, Sir William Zeal, pointed out by an a year.
interjection, we can pass no law to force The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The states
the present holders of our bonds and stocks could also make a large saving !
to hand them over. Whenever we desire Mr. SOLOMON: I admit that, but I
to give a new stock or a new bond in place do not think the states could make the
of those at present held, we shall undoubt- same saving, and be as sure of a conver-
edly have to pay the top market price and sion on favourable .terms as the federal
a fair equivalent. But there is this to be parliament would be. Taking a further
considered : that the value of the stock term of five years, from 1900, we find that
with the indorsement of the whole of the about £12,000,000 of the colonial debts
colonies behind it must certainly be some- will mature. For that amount we are
what greater than the value of the stock paying 4, 5, and 6 per cent. per annum.
of each individual state. I do not say that Here we find a further saving can be
it will be very much greater, because the made. Supposing that stock can also be
credit of the individual states at the pre- issued for this amount at par, at an aver-
sent time is very high indeed in the London age rate of interest of perhaps 3 per cent.
market; but it undoubtedly would be which I do not think is unfair-a fur-
somewhat higher. With the power of con- ther saving of £180,000 a year could be
verting the whole of the debts into one made; so that in eight years' time, under
interininable stock somewhat similar to favourable circumstances, we would be able
English consols, undoubtedly a vast saving to save at the very least over £300,000
could be made. Let us come to definite per annum, which at the present time
figures with regard to the debts. It has is being lost by the individual colonies.
been pointed out that you cannot look for Before passing from this question of the
any great immediate saving with regard debts and the railways, it seems to me
to the conversion of our debts, and it has that the suggestion that in banding over
been pointed out with a great deal of truth our delts we should also hand over those
that we can hardly hope to convert any tangible assets consisting of the railways
of these debts into one regular consoli- of the various colonies is only a reasonable
dated stock until such time as these debts one, although there seems to be a great
mature. In looking through a statement prejudice, especially in New South Wales,
of the debts of the commonwealth con- amongst many I have spoken to, against
198 Commonwealth of [8 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bizi.
handing over the control of their various The Hon. J. HENRY: Not necessarily
railway lines. I cannot understand that framed as a protective tariff !
prejudice, in the face of the declara- Mr. SOLOMON: Not necessarily
tions of the trust and reliance they are framed for the protection of industries, as
prepared to place in the federal parlia- the tariff in Victoria is, but framed for
ment. We are not going to hand over the producing revenue. At the same time it
control of these railway lines to any body would undoubtedly be in effect a protective
of men who would be likely to use them tariff to some extent, and it is useless for
unfairly. We would not hand over the us to shut our eyes to that fundamental
lines of the different colonies to the control fact. As far as four out of five of the
of an administration that would be likely colonies are concerned there seems to be
to use them, as they are used now, for the no difficulty in regard to this matter; but
purpose of injuring one colony or another. as far as New South Wales is concerned
The object of making these lines pay fairly, it seems that the representatives do not
and at the same time develop the producing care to pin themselves to any definite in-
interests they are intended to serve, would structions being set out in the financial
have just as great care, and just as much clauses of the bill which will in effect mean
watchfulness on the part of the federal the imposition of a protective tariff. It
parliament as it now has on the part of the is no use mincing words over this. It is
parliaments of the various states. Then, no use attempting to evade the question
we come to, perliaps, the more difficult by suggesting that other modes of taxation
problem of the custoins duties; and here may be adopted. We know perfectly well
I think, as has been so openly pointed out, that the only mode of taxation which will
is the great stumbling-block to federation be tolerated by the states, if they come
--not a stumbling-block on the part of four together in this union, is at the first, at
out of five of the colonies—at least, three any rate, a moderate taxation through the
out of five, I suppose I may say now, after customs. Then the difficulty crops up as
the declaration of Mr. James, representing to the returning of the surplus to the vari-
Western Australia--but a stumbling-block ous states. After a great deal of argument,
in New South Wales, not openly declared, after a great deal of trouble on the part of
for it is a question that many of the repre-
the Finance Committee in Adelaide, and
sentatives of New South Wales do not care after a great deal of light thrown upon the
to declare themselves very definitely upon. subject by various writers in the press, wo
It is admitted, I think, on all hands that,
found at the last that it was necessary
in order to obtain the same aggregate re-
for the Treasurers of the various colonies
venue for Australasia through the customs- to frame a clause dealing with what is
liouse that the various colonies obtain now, known now as the sliding scale of ad-
it will be necessary to have a moderate justinent. That sliding scale has not been
degree of protection. That, I think, most fairly and fully debated, and it has been
of us at least regard as a sine qua non. very little understood. I venture to think
The Hon. J. HENRY : A revenue-pro- that until my hon. friend, Mr. Holder,
ducing tariff!
from South Australia, in the pamphlet he
Mr. SOLOMON: A tariff not for pro- issued a few days ago, explained the opera-
tective purposes but for revenue-producing tion of the sliding scale upward and down-
purposes--a tariff, nevertheless, which will ward, very few people thoroughly under-
very nearly equal in some respects a pro- stood what was intended by it. In deal-
tective tariff as we at present understand it, ing with this question it may be an
i
[Mr. Solomon.
Commonwealth of
199.
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
year!
instruction of this Committee that the what mislead those who seek to find
Finance Committee shall draft resolutions out what the result of its operation will
somewhat in that form. There is no in- be.
struction at present. We have had a pretty The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It is
equal expression of opinion on the one side a question as to whether you take the
in favour of trusting the federal parlia- beginning of the year or the end of the
ment, and on the other side in favour of a
sliding scale with some variations in respect
Mr. SOLOMON: It will not, I suppose,
to certain colonies. If it is the desire of this be difficult to make a verbal amendment.
Committee that the sliding scale should be What I was about to say was this : Have
adopted, I should like to point out that the hon. members really studied from such
operation of the sliding scale will not be figures as are available what the result of
as drafted, that the colonies receiving a the adoption of this sliding scale will be ?
greater amount than the aggregate ascer- Representing as I do a colony like South
tained in the first year shall lose one-fifth Australia, where a considerable advantage
in each year of its operation. I should like would be gained, I feel that this scheme
to direct the attention of my legal friends would certainly suit my constituents, but
in the Convention to the wording of this would it suit the constituents of some of
provision in sub-section v of clause 32. the other delegates?
By the drafting of this sub-clause it would The Hon. J. HENRY: New South Wales,
appear that the colonies having an excess for instance !
would lose one-fifth of that excess in each Mr. SOLOMON : Yes. If we take
year. On the other hand, we know per- Coghlan's figures in table 5 of that little
fectly well that it was intended, if the pamphlet which was provided for us in
plan sct forth in Mr. Holder's pamphlet Adelaide, showing the relative contribu-
is correct, that, during the first year after tions of the various colonies for the years
the ascertained average contribution, each 1893, 1894, and 1895 as a basis of calcu-
colony having an excess should lose one- lation
fifth, during the second year two-fifths of An HON. MENBER : Does the hon. gen-
that excess, during the third year three- tleman think we ought to take that as a
fifths, and so forth ; and that, in the basis?
same ratio, the contribution of the colo- Mr. SOLOMON: I do not care what
nies having less would increase. But, if figures you take.
I do not for a mo-
hon. members will look at that clause as ment pretend to say that these figures
drafted, they will see that it does not are likely to represent what the results
carry out the intention of the Drafting will be when a uniform tariff has been
Committee.
established.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The words are The Hon. Sir P. O. FysII: They will serve
those of the Finance Committee itself ! as an example !
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It Mr. SOLOMON: I am taking them
is very questionable whether it does
an example, they being the only
or does not; but we can reconsider that figures available, and I find that ac-
point!
cording to those figures New South Wales
The Hon. E. BARTON : We need not would lose in the first year something
trouble about the form !
like £106,000.
Mr. SOLOMON: In its present The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : If they are
wording, the clause is liable to some- taken as absolute facts !
as
200
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.1
If a
Mr. SOLOMON: They are arithmeti- different way from that in which we deal
cally correct, because the losses are balanced with the other colonies. Western Australia
by the gains of the other colonies. in its isolated position will be able to keep
table is worked out, it will show hon. an accurate account of the whole of the con-
members that that is so. I am pointing tributions through customs without one
this out not to raise another difficulty, but penny of additional expense, in regard to
in order that those members who are on the customs-houses or their officers, so that
the Finance Committee may have some little difficulty need arise in that respect.
more definite instruction as to what With a view to meeting Western Australia,
policy we wish adopted in framing resolu- not as suggested by the hon. member, Mr.
tions. This debate, of course, is only held James, by allowing her a free hand as to
with a view to give the Finance Committee the imposition of customs—if such were
some inforination. I would ask hon, mem- Western Australia's idea in joining the
bers what information have we as to federation, I am rather surprised at any
the general views of this Committee on delegates coming here from that colony-
this financial problem ? Little or none. but with a view to meeting her special con-
Those speakers who may be taken to re-
ditions—the condition of the enormous
present the opinions of their various dele- amount per head she is receiving by cus-
gations—I refer to the Treasurers especially toms—I think a simple clause might be
are all at a tangent: they are all going inserted in the bill. I do not imagine for
in opposite directions, and the Finance an instant that this enormously increased
Committee will have no more information contribution through customs is likely to
to guide them when they meet after this continue. The reason of it is simple and
debate is concluded than they had when it plain to those who will seek it. The
started. The most equitable scheme so
bulk of the population-I suppose seven-
far that has been subuitted—and we have tenths or eight-tenths of the population
had none submitted to take its place is of Western Australia consists of adult
the scheme submitted by the Treasurers males, who are earning twice as much as
at the Adelaide Convention, with certain are adựlt males in the southern portions
variations which must be made to deal of Australia in the same position. That
with certain colonies. Take, for instance, is to say, none of these tens of thou-
the position of Western Australia. Un- sands of inen employed in mining through-
doubtedly, some clauses will have to be out the length and breadth of Western
introduced which will secure to that colony, Australia are receiving less than from £3
irrespective of what the division of the sur- 10s. to £4 a week as against from 35s. to
plus may be to other colonies, an absolute
£2 a week, which they would receive in
return of the surplus in accordance with her the southern colonies. Here is the simple
contributions. It will be ridiculous to think solution of the question how it is that
that Western Australia, with a revenue their revenue is so enormous. The spend-
from customs of £7
per
head could go into ing power of a community is the test of
this federation knowing it was possible that what the revenue from customs will be. So
she would only receive back, after paying long as this abnormal rate of wages con-
her contribution to the expenses of the tinues, and so long as the bulk of the popu-
commonwealth, perhaps £1 or 30s. a head. lation continue to be single men, or rather
And in this connection I would point out
adult males, without their wives and chil-
that there is little or no difficulty in deal-
dren accompanying them—so long will the
ing with Western Australia in a totally contribution of Western Australia, through
[Mr. Solomon
Commonwealth of
201
[8 SEPT., 1897.
Australice Bill.
the custom-house, be greatly disproportion- down by the right hon. member, Sir George
ate to the contributions of the other colo- Turner, and the lines laid down in the
nies. But all this will, in a very few financial portion of the bill, and frame
years, come down to the same level, or to clauses to deal with the finances on that
nearly the same level, as that of the other basis.
colonies, and although, during that opera- The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
tion, the population will increase, the cus- Wales) [38]: I cannot commence the re-
toms revenue will not increase per head in marks I have to make without joining in the
the same ratio. As to the other colonies, congratulations which have been showered
there seems to me to be little difference be- upon hon. members for the development
tween them; so little indeed that I think of the federal spirit which has taken place
that we might easily prophesy that within since our meeting in Adelaide. And when
three or four years at the outside, the cus- I speak of such development, I do not
toms revenue contributed by men, women, assume, as some of our critics assume, that
and children in Victoria, South Australia that very federal development is a forget-
and New South Wales will be very much fulness of the interests of the colonies we
about the same. I have listened to what here represent. The whole principle of
has been said as to the necessity for some federation depends on the framing of a
guarantee to the treasurers of the states constitution which maintains an even line
that the division of the surplus received of justice between the general authority
from customs will be made on an equitable and the provincial authority. To depart
and proper basis. I do not think it will from that on one side or the other would
be necessary to lay down hard and fast
seem to me to be a forgetfulness of the
lines demonstrated by figures as to what interests of Australia, or of the interests of
percentage, or what proportion of the con- one's own colony. But so long as jus-
tributions through customs shall be re- tice can be secured on both sides of that
turned to individual states. But I think that line, it seems to me that we are pursu-
for a period of years, at any rate—the hon. ing the path which the statute that sent.
member, Mr. Holder, named five years, and us here commanded us to pursue. How
that seems to be a very fair term, during then, will these matters work out? Is
which the federal parliament can settle it not true that considerations of this kind
down to its work, and financial matters suggest a principle on which we can act?
can adjust themselves in the states-pro- We all admit that we are constituting a
vision should be made at least to secure free people; we all admit that we cannot
to those states a just and equitable return withhold from that people every attribute
in accordance with their contributions. I of power which is necessary to the con-
do not wish to delay the Committee longer, summation of the purpose for which they
because there will be other opportunities are constituted. If we surround the federal
to speak after the Finance Committee have power too much with safeguards for itself,
dealt with the matters relegated to them. not for provincial interests, we shall be
But I do urge upon hon. members to give derogating from the rights of the citizens
that committee some definite expression whom we do not call into existence, but to
of opinion, by resolution or otherwise, as whom we hand larger powers of self-govern-
to whether the majority desire to leave the ment. If on the other hand we make the
whole of these matters to the parliament powers of the commonwealth so extensive
of federated Australia, or whether they that they necessarily result in an absorp-
desire to follow out more the lines laid tion of the interests and the properties of
202 Commonwealth of [S SEPT., 1897.] Australico Billo
the states, then, correlatively, we depart out there is no longer a federation. If we
from the path which we ought to pursue. observe these principles I think we shall be
That suggests to me that there are some on the safe path. I do not think that this:
quarters in which guarantees are necessary, question can be fully discussed, as has been
and others in which guarantees are de- suggested by one or more hon. gentlemen,
cidedly unnecessary. It suggests to me without some relation to the question of
that in all those matters which are purely the railways, because one of the strongest
federal, which are either the matters which arguments used in favour of the vesting of
no province can undertake for itself, or the railways in the federation, is that by
are the matters which a province cannot that investiture the financial difficulty will
effectively deal with, and which she consents be solved. I am not at all sure in the first
to hand over, there is no necessity to place that that investiture would solve the
hamper the federation with any guaran- financial difficulty—in fact I am pretty
tee; but that where the interests of the eonfident that it would not get rid of the
federation and of the state are inextric- great question which we have all the while
ably involved, as in the case of the dis- to determine: given a federal surplus what
tribution of the surplus of customs re- is the just proportion in which it should
venue, some principle must be laid down go back to each state? You may wipe
—you may call the laying down of that out the federal surplus by taking over the
principle a guarantee or not--but it must railways, by taking over the interest on
be safe to enter into the federation. It debts, but your federation has to set what
must be understood that the line of safety it gets out of that surplus against the
is observed for the states which join it, proportion which would otherwise be pay-
otherwise you may bid good-bye to the able to the state ; and therefore it is a moot
hope of the electors of those states accept question what is the proportion payable
ing the constitution. Well, then, in such to that state. No expedient of one
matters, as for instance the federal fran- kind or other can ever get rid of that
chise, the choice of the federal capital, and question.
so on, I am prepared to impose no guaran- Mr. GLYNN: You might be applýing it
tee whatever upon the federation because to smaller figures !
they are purely federal matters. In such The Hon. E. BARTON: You might
matters as the essence of government--if be, but if you arrive at a surplus out of
it is true that finance is government-in one source of revenue or another—if you
such matters as those financial adjust- observe the principle and I think we all
ments, the maintainence of which on both desire that returns should be as nearly as
parts is alike necessary to the federation possible according to contributions—if you
and the states, that is a point where observe that principle and you have a
something like a principle—if you can call surplus, the amount to be credited to each
it a principle-something like a guaran- state, even if you amalgamate the rail-
tee, if you prefer that name—must be ways, must be ascertained upon some defi-
inserted in the constitution.
While we
nite principle. That is the difficulty which
must fully and thoroughly trust the federa- is unsolved by every suggestion. But I
tion in respect of all matters which are believe there is one suggestion which has
purely federal—and we must trust it as been made out of doors, and which has
much as we can even in other matters—we been to a certain extent made by Sir
must also safeguard the continued entity John Forrest, which goes some distance
of the states, because with the states wiped to meet it. I am heartily at one with
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
203
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
the Premier of New South Wales, whose this problem. Now I revert to what was
speech of yesterday must be regarded as said by Sir John Forrest. He said that
an admirable contribution, not only to the principles laid down in the bill of 1891
the finance of federation, but also to that were, after all, the most feasible that had
federal impulse upon which we rely to obu yet been suggested. Without committing
tain popular support for our movement. myself as far as that, I am inclined to
I am heartily at one with him, as I think think there is in the provisions of the
I have said a great many times in pre- bill of 1891 the germ of the solution at
vious discussions, in saying that we shouldl which we ought to arrive. I have said
trust the federal parliament, but we must and I am sure I have the concurrence
have one qualification to that. First, we of the Convention in saying it—that if
cannot do away with the solvency of the we can arrive at a decision based on facts
several states. If we do that those states instead of a decision based on speculation,
die, and we have no longer a federation, we shall be nearer the truth. Allthe figures
but a legislative union. If we are to pre- that have been laid before us by statis-
serve that solvency, then the question ticians are admittedly speculative in this :
arises, are we to arrange for it upon a that their calculations -no doubt very
speculative basis, or upon a basis of fact? good sums in arithmetic--depend upon the
It seems to me that there can be no qués- assumption that under a tariff which may
tion that the basis of fact, which means in one place be bigher than the previous
experience, is the right basis upon which tariff, and in another lower, the rate of
to proceed. I am as heartily opposed to the collection of duty will remain the same.
a prolonged system of book-keeping as is There is only one objection to that method
anyone in this chamber. I am as heartily of calculation, and that is that it leaves
opposed as anyone here to that dealing be- you a sum in arithmietic, but it does not
tween state and federation which has been leave you any facts. Whiat, then, is the
characterised in Canada as the system of position? Must we not at once acknow.
better terms, that designation being a con-
ledge that the purely speculative basis, the
venient euphemism for corruption. The attempt to prophesy-and it will be an
hon. member, Mr. Fraser, who bas know- audacious attempt on our part-wrist be
ledge and experience with regard to the abandoned, and that we cannot venture to
working of the Canadian Constitution, predict what will be the operation of a uni-
knows how good a constitution on the form tariff, because in a people conditioned
whole it is, and yet how the loopholes that as ours we have never seen any attempt at
are left for dealings, for bargainings, for such an operation? If we once réalise that,
transactions between the states and the we may still give due weight to the fact
federation, have resulted in some cases in
which has been so much emphasised by
bargains which were not wholly credit the Right Hon. Sir George Turner, that
able. That we wish to avoid, and it seems there will be, after the federation is ac-
to me that if we are to combine those complished, and after the uniform tariff is
two principles, if we act not upon specu-
established, a gradual approximation in
lation but upon facts, and if we also act consuming power, purchasing power, and
at the earliest possible moment in such payment of duties between all the colonies.
a way as to determine all bargainings, all But we cannot foresee the result of that
transactions for better terms between the approximation, and if we attempt to place
state and the federation, we shall have on record in the constitution à fancied
arrived at something like a solution of result of that approximation we shall
204
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
probably be leading, either to a consider- An Hon. MEMBER: Suppose that you
able convulsion in our federation, or to an applied it to the experience of Western
agitation which could only be satisfied by Australia, how would it fit in ?
amendment of the constitution by way of The Hon. E. BARTON: It would raise
referendum, because experience is almost some difficulty ; but my hon. friend must
certain to falsify any predictions we may recollect that there is no course that you
make. We should be more than human can propose in regard to this question that
if predictions of this kind could succeed. will not raise difficulty, and I am sure
What, then, is the alternative? The alter- that he will agree with me at once in say-
native is to proceed upon facts. We have ing that the nearer you approximate to.
not yet the facts to proceed upon. Experi- facts, and the further you leave speculation
ence alone will show the way. It is to ex- behind, the nearer you are to a reasonable
perience that we must revert, and that is solution. We all know that we had such
an experience which can be gained only by times here in 1851 and onwards for a few
a federal authority. That, it seems to me, years as my right hon. friend opposite has
leads us to the conclusion that, notwith- enjoyed. Those were the days when a pair
standing our repugnance to book-keeping, of boots cost £3 or £4, and when a man
we must still bear in mind that the final
had £4 or £5 with which to pay for them.
determination of this matter must be based These conditions I am sure it will not be
upon experience, upon fact, and it will be annoying to my right hon. friend for me
just to all the colonies—just particularly to to say this—these conditions are proved
the smaller colonies—that we should re- by the experience of other colonies to be
serve a time during which this book-keep- evanescent. At the same time, they are con-
ing—much as I object to it—may go on in ditions which are factors in the building up
order that a basis of fact may be once for of a solid system under which prosperity is
all established. Take a period of three years, possible. That has been so in the case of
or of five years if you prefer it, for the uni- other colonies. We have lost our booms;
form tariff. Let the collections be estimated but the conditions of booms have been
somewhat on the principle laid down in the replaced by conditions, of settlement, of
proposed 92nd clause during that time. progress, of production, of the utilisation
Let it be ascertained as nearly as the of the soil, which I am sure will follow in
statistics of the commonwealth enable
yoii my right hon. friend's colony. That is, I
to ascertain it—and they will be much think, a fair answer to the question; and
more effective than those of any single the question of my hon. friend, Mr. Henry,
colony as the colonies now exist—and on leaves the position still intact, that the
the experience of those three or five years further you go away from fact, and the
you will have had an answer to the ques- more you endeavour to speculate, the
tion, what is the tendency to approxima- more you assume a function in which
tion in the consuming and importing events will stultify you.
powers of the various states? You can- An HON. MEMBER :
not answer that question to day. If the The Hon. E. BARTON:I do not think
answer to it is at the root of the ques- that book-keeping is impracticable at all,
tion, and if only another authority can and for this reason: We take the collec-
find the answer, then the solution of this tion of duties at the present time, and that
problem lies in putting off the answer gives us, in the first instance, a guide to
until there are such conditions as I have the amount we may require to raise by the
named.
uniform tariff.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
205
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
An Hon. MEMBER: That is between An Hon. MEMBER : It will not cost very
colony and colony !
much!
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes. My hon. The Hon. E. BARTON: No, it will not
friend means as between the southern and cost very much. There would simply be a
northern portion of South Australia? system of inspection which would supplant
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER :
the collection of customs duties on the
The Hon. E. BARTON: I admit that borders. It is true that that would be, to
there is a very serious difficulty, but, not- some extent, irritating; but he who feels
withstanding my hon. friend's suggestion, the aggravation of border duties will not
we cannot get away from this, that the object to a system of inspection when he
conditions which will arise under federa- knows that, at any rate, he is relieved
tion are conditions of which we have had from the great trouble, the great outlay,
no experience, and they cannot be dealt the great harassment, of the collection of
with except by an authority that has ex- duties. So that it will be admitted that a
perience of them. We still have difficulty, resort to such a system as this will at once
I admit. I do not for a moment say that be a lightening of burdens. There will be
my suggestion is free from difficulty-in- an abolition of the intercolonial customs;
deed it is not my suggestion, but the sug- and those who feel the benefit of that
gestion of many minds before-but I say abolition cannot very well object, if for
that it is less beset with difficulty than any reasons which may redound to the lasting
other course before us.
benefit of the commonwealth they have for
An Hon. MEMBER: What would you a few years to suffer a system under which
do in case of the admission of new the amount and value of importations
states?
across the border may be ascertained. I
The Hon. E. BARTON : Is my hon. should prefer if we could say, “Trust this
friend in possession of any scheme by question to the commonwealth absolutely
which a difficulty of that kind could be and at once.” My sympathies are all with
met? I do not think so, and, therefore,
those who say,
“Let us settle this financial
inasmuch as power is given to the federal question by empowering, as the Legisla-
parliament to settle the terms for the ad- tive Assembly of New South Wales sought
mission of new states, it is in the power to empower, the commonwealth "--and I
of the commonwealth to legislate on such admit the federal spirit of that amend-
an occasion so that the colony in question mentm by at once saying to the federal au-
shall receive a certain guaranteed amount thority, "We trust you to deal justly with
on its admission until its experience under We leave the matter in your hands."
altered conditions, under the tariff, desig- But this, upon the lines which I endeavoured
nated the amount properly returnable to to indicate at the beginning of these re-
it; and that would be the subject of ad- marks, would create a difficulty, because ii
justment. I see no difficulty in that case, would not guarantee the primary solvency
except the necessity of resorting to book- of the states, and without that guarantee
keeping, and, much as I am opposed to there would be a tendency-an unneces-
book-keeping, I have come to the conclu- sary tendency--on the part of the federal
sion that if it leads to the abandonment of authority, not to usurp, but insensibly
continual aggression on the states by the to encroach, so that the revenue and the
federal authority for the purpose of getting financial position of the various colonies
better terms, a limited time of book- would be so impaired and hampered that
keeping will be a necessity.
they would become municipalities instead
us.
206 Commonwealth of [8 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
· of self-governing communities. That is result would be that the distribution would
alien to the spirit of federation.
The re-
be according to pressure, and not accord-
sult of that would be to destroy federation. ing to experience. That would be fatal.
It might substitute a legislative union; It would be as bad as if we fixed the basis
but we are charged under the Enabling of distribution now.
Act with the framing of a federal, and An Hon. MEMBER : It would be worse !
of no other form of, constitution. The The Hon. E. BARTON: Perhaps it
difficulty in the way of inviting the fede- would be worse, because here there is not
ral commonwealth to take charge of the the pressure which a federal government
distribution of the federal surplus seems would be under. Does not that suggest
.to.me to be beset, first, by the considera- that there must be this experience, this
tion which I have mentioned, and also by basis of fact. I suggest, therefore, that we
otber considerations which, to my mind, consider the institution of the system of
if the principle I have laid down is correct, book-keeping for three or five years after
would be fatal to success. I have already the commencement of a federal tariff, so
pointed out one danger that would arise if that the authority we are about to consti-
we charged the federal authority with the tute may act according to the lines which
duty of distributing the surplus among the experience may dictate. We might lay
states without imposing any condition or down in our constitution I make this
restriction whatever ; and that is the suggestion to the Finance Committee-a
danger of insensible encouragement to the direction to the federal parliament to dis-
diminution of the revenue of the states, tribute the surplus upon the lines of the
and the impairment of their individuality experience gained by them ; or—and I am
Another danger is that immediately upon not now talking as a draftsman—we might
the establishment of the federal tariff you invite thein to make a distribution as
would have every one of the states so nearly as possible according to the contri-
strongly pressing the federal authority to butions obtained and expected from each
lay down a principle of distribution, and colony joining the federation. We might
to pass an act for that purpose, that it take one or the other of those courses.
would be forced to pass such an act. That Either of them would be a much greater
would be substituting one difficulty for an- approximation to justice than any other
other, because if there is to be a distribution we could possibly make, and would be a
without experience, and not upon the basis much fairer and juster scheme than the
of fact, it matters little whether the basis variant and discordant schemes which have
of that distribution is laid down here or poured in upon us from the
press, from
by a federal parliament; it will be equally the parliaments, and from our own mem
faulty in either case.
bers. We make no distinction, I hope.
Mr. HIGGINS : There would be an all- We must admit that we are full of sug-
round grab!
gestions—and I do not use the term in its
The Hon. E. BARTON: As my hon. slang interpretation. The Convention is as
friend says, there would be an all-round guilty of, or as much to be credited with,
grab. There would be a rush by the vari- the making of suggestions, as is any other
"ous states to secure the best terms they body which has criticised it; and I am sure
could get, and necessarily so, because of that there is a spirit here which welcomes
their financial exigencies. No basis of criticism and suggestions from abroad.
distribution would be ascertained as But I think that we shall not arrive at
matter of fact and of experience, and the any true solution of the problem unless we
i
a
ats
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
207
[8 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill..
draw a real line of demarcation between practical, and valuable than any off-hand
the speculative and the actual. I think opinions which we can express at this date
that the only way we can do so is to await and at the present stage of development.
the result of experience. We should say, Therefore, I am strongly in favour of
either that this distribution must take place allowing such provisions to remain in the
upon the basis of the experience gained by constitution as will allow of the railways
the federal government, or that there shall being taken over, provided that a satisfac:
be a direction to the federal government to tory bargain can be arrived at between the
distribute the surplus according to the states interested and the federal authority.
actual and expected contributions of the In the meantime I remain of the opinion
states, less the per capita expense of govern- which I held in Adelaide—that there should
ment. As I said a little while ago, I am be no investiture of the railways in the
sure that this question cannot be considered federal government. It is argued that the
without considering the question whether taking over of the railways would recoup
the railways are to be taken over. As the loss of £1,000,000 a year occasioned
to that, we have had suggestions which are, by the giving up of intercolonial duties.
no doubt, valuable. In my opinion they We must first consider what is the mean-
will be more valuable to a federal parlia- ing of the term "loss." There will be a
ment than they are to us. I am one of loss of £1,000,000 if intercolonial free-
those who think-as I thought when we trade is a loss; but not otherwise.
met in Adelaide—that upon entering into An Hon. MEMBER: There will be a
federation there should be no hargain made
revenue loss !
for the sale of our railways. The railways The Hon. E, BARTON: So much
are largely instruments of production ; revenue will be lost to the states; but that
they have been instituted for the purpose will be an actual gain to the people in
of opening up markets to our producers. their taxable capacity. They will be re-
They are there for the development of our lieved of £1,000,000 of taxation. If, then,
land, and as our land must remain inalien- it is said that an ensuing tariff on the part
ably our property, so we ought to have of the federation which would bring back
the right of retaining our railways as that £1,000,000 to the treasury would be
interwoven with the success of our land
a system of heavy, unheard-of taxation,
development. There may come a time when the argument must be dismissed at once as
a principle of this kind, which I believe to an absurdity, for the reason that, although
be true, may have to be foregone in view of an adjustment may be effected, the total
some great impending danger, or expected revenue drawn from the pockets of the
advantage. This is another of the cases people will be exactly the same. If, with
in which our commonwealth should be one stroke of the pen, by abolishing inter-
invested with certain powers, and I am, colonial customs duties, you do away
therefore, in favour of the sub-clauses in- with £1,000,000 of revenue, and get back
serted in Adelaide, empowering the com- that revenue by imposivg a federal tariff
monwealth to take over, not at its own which may be nominally a higher tariff, if
option, but only with the consent of the the total revenue is the same in one case
states interested, the whole or any portion as in the other, who can say that the
of the railways. I am in favour of that burden upon the taxpayer is greater ?
simply because I believe that as time No one can say so. So that the whole of this
advances the wisdom of the body which we thing is an absolute bogy. It is another
are constituting will be far more effective, of those spook illusions which some of our
208
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
+
friends, who are opposed to federation, are Separate the people from the railways, and
so fond of creating. There is nothing in the railways without them would not be
it. I think we may take leart of grace worth a farthing; but the people without
upon a question of this kind, and say this: the railways still have the capacity to
that providing the federal tariff realises make progress; and it is to the people, there-
approximately the same amount of revenue fore, and to the results of their energy that
as was realised by the aggregate of the lenders look for their security. Of course,
previous tariffs--and that it is sufficient the railways are included in the security,
for the states—we may take this course because the people include everything, the
with perfect satisfaction, without increas- people being the larger security. I say,
ing the burdens of the people.
therefore, that the actual security for a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Are national debt lies in the energy and thrift
you not tying the federal parliament down of the people, always provided that they
to raising that amount?
are allowed to operate freely under a stable
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not say- constitution. If this were not so, there
ing that the federation should be tied down would be no security, practically, for the
to raising that amount. I am answering national debt of England. The advances
the objection that a federal tariff of an made by capitalists all over the world, those
average of so much is a higher tariff, im- of England included, are made on the faith
poses a higher burden on the people than of the honesty and ability of the people,
would an intercolonial tariff of a less upon the faith of their readiness to meet
amount. I take it that that tariff which their obligations, and their capacity to do
results in an income equal to that which is so. England being a country in which pub-
swept away cannot truly be said to in- lic works, as we understand them, are prac-
crease the burdens of the people. I take tically unknown, and where, notwithstand-
it that if that contention is correct, the ing, the security offered is the greatest in
first line of the argument that we cannot the world—if you find that in that case,
federate without taking over the railways where money has been borrowed to such a
is destroyed, because that line of argument great extent, the security consists of what
depends on the assumption that you lose
may be called the actual, as distinguished
£1,000,000 by abolishing the intercolonial
from the legal security, you have a safe
duties, and that, in order to bring that line upon which to proceed in the settle-
back by means of a federal tariff, you are ment of this question. Now, what is the
over-taxing the people, and, therefore, you legal security? Let me take an example or
must take over the railways and save two from existing statutes. Is it true that
the million in their management. That our public debts have been contracted on
is the fallacy in the first line of the argu- the security of the railways in such a sense
ment in favour of taking over the railways. that if you handed over the public debts
Then, again, it is said that we must take you must also hand over the railways ? I
over the railways if we want to take over will turn first to the legislation of Victoria.
the debts;. but that is a non sequitur, and These provisions, of course, are well-known
for this reason: The actual security for a but they require recalling because we hear
public debt, in the first instance—and I so much said which, I venture with the
am distinguishing between the actual and greatest respect to say, does not fall very
the legal security-is the energy and thrift far short of nonsense, including the state-
of the people. It is to that that the money- ment to the effect that the railways are
lender looks when he advances his money. the chief asset for the public debt. In
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
209
[8 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
We are
It is a
Victoria the Stock Act, 59 Victoria No. had a large land revenue-a policy under
1,217, in section 4, provides :
which she sells her capital in the shape of
All stock issued pursuant to this act and all land, and expends it as revenue.
dividends thereon shall be and be deemed to be
in an advantageous financial position in
a primary charge upon the consolidated revenue
this respect as compared with the rest of
of Victoria, &c.
the colonies, because we may be said
I take that as a type of the legislation on
to be cutting down the ancestral trees.
the subject. There is a similar act in New
This great security, the energy and thrift
South Wales, 59 Victoria, No. 5, an act to
of the people, is subject to such duties as
authorise a loan for the repayment of loans,
are imposed for customs revenue.
in which it is provided that:
constant saying that nothing is more
It shall be lawful for the Governor to raise by
elastic than is that source of revenue.
the sale of debentures or the issue of inscribed
stock secured upon the consolidated revenue
Now the customs revenue being the most
fund of the colony, &c.
elasticsource of revenue, reflects the energy
Then in the act No. 6 of the same session,
and thrift of the people. Therefore we
there is a provision to the same effect :
have not only the index but the product
It shall be lawful for the Governor to raise
of the energy and thrift of the people
by the sale of debentures or the issue of stock
handed over to the federation, handed over
secured upon the consolidated revenue fund of as the bulk of that which is by law the
the colony, &c.
recognised security for our debt. I may
I said that I distinguished between the be, perhaps, pardoned for my positive form
actual and legal securities; the actual of expression when I urge that it is entirely
security being the energy and thrift of the a mistake to suppose that the railways
people, whereas the legal security is the are the asset for our debt. Whether you
consolidated revenue of the country. What look to the actual security or to the legal
do you propose to do but to hand over to security, it is not to be found in our rail-
the federation, in order that they may ways. It is true that they are contributors
collect it, a very large proportion-through-
to the consolidated revenue fund, but the
out the colonies it may be taken as nine-
contributions of the railways to the con-
tenths of the consolidated rerenue. This solidated revenue have a large set-off
will be subject to redistribution under the against them in the form of interest on the
federation. You have the same security debt. Now, what is to prevent this banding
in the energy and thrift of the people, but over of the public debts from being a factor
under the federation you have also that in the settlement of this financial problem?
which is the legal asset—the consolidated I admit that the problem can be settled
revenue fund nearly in its entirety. without it; but I do venture to say, in the
first place, that the system need not be
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It
complicated by the handing over of the
would not amount to nine-tenths !
railways at this stage. It will be of great
The Hon. E. BARTON: I leave it to benefit to the credit and to the capacity of
the right hon. gentleman to work out the every state to have its public debt handed
proportion, butit does not matter very much. over, and it would form a very strong means
I was forgetting for the moment that New of preventing that bogy known as the federal
South Wales under a policy which, not- surplus. The Finance Committee may decide
withstanding my great patriotism and ad entirely against the views I venture to ex-
miration for the country in which I was press, whicb, however strongly I may put
born, I cannot indorse, has for many years them forward, are only meant in the spirit
210
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.
of suggestion ; but we must not overlook essence. But the railways are not federal in
the fact that taking over the national essence. You can hand over the debts with-
debts of the colonies, if not altogether, yet out handing over the railways. The rail-
to as large an extent as possible, will be a ways are provincial in their essence. The
great preventative of a system in future debts may be made federal without injury
years which may result in further agita- to one provincial interest.
The railway
tion between the states and the common- question is one that experience can scttle;
wealth.
it is a question to be decided by the terri-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : And torial authority, which has the land to
it will take away a great incentive to
develop, and which should also be possessed
extravagance!
of the instruments for the development of
The Hon. E. BARTON: I quite agree
that territory. Among these I regard the
railways as the highest. As I have said,
with that. There is a case which illustrates
I am quite ready to go further, and say
what I am saying—it is this: the statutes
that we will give the federation power to
supply us with an interpretation as to
what is the security for the debts, that is
take over the railways if it and the states
to say, that class of revenue which is the
concur, and then only wken occasion arises,
which will depend upon the nation's safety
product of the energy of the people is
made, among others, the security for the
and advantage, and that can be judged of
debts. Let us consider what would happen
by them, while it cannot now be judged
if the railways did not return one penny
of by us: In the meantime, I think
of profit
that the railways must not be worked so
as to neutralise intercolonial free-trade.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Or were run
Without the railway clauses in the bill,
at an actual loss !
it
may be argued that the commonwealth
The Hon. E. BARTON: The interest can legislate and prevent such a thing.
must be paid, and it would have to be It is perfectly true that under the clause
paid out of the consolidated revenue. The for regulating trade and commerce, and un-
customs revenue you hand over to the der a particular clause, such as the 95th,
federal government. What can be more not only is there some automatic operation
right than that the dealing with and ad- in the constitution, but there is also power
justment of the question of debts should to legislate so as to deal with that question.
be handed over to the very authority
But I ask whether it is not better to pre-
which takes the revenue which is the vent interference with intercolonial free-
main source for the payment of interest on trade by the same instrument which cre-
our debts ? I venture to submit that both ates intercolonial free-trade? Why is it a
the actual and the legal security would good thing to dissociate these two things?
be practically in the commonwealth. If If you enact intercolonial free trade in
they are both in the commonwealth, the your constitution, why hesitate to make
latter ought to take over the debts irre- it effectual by the same document? Why
spective of the railways. Now, it may should you leave the complete enforcement
be thought that in saying this there is of that free-trade to be a mere matter of
some implied distrust of the federation. legislative interference, when, if the gift is
I do not seek to impose impossible obliga- . a good and a great one, there is nothing to
tions on the federation. I wish to leave
I wish to leave stop its being complete in the one act. I
them as free a hand as is possible. I wish take it, therefore, that it is better to pre-
to give the federation all that is federal in vent this interference with intercolonial
i
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
211
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
free-trade as far as possible in the same con- terfere with the railways of the different
stitution which grants that very boon. colonies further than is necessary to main-
Otherwise, I think we should have to con- tain free-trade between the various colo-
fess that we thought it was not necessary to
nies. The commission would not have
safeguard the first condition of federation. power to make any rate at all. It might be
This does not mean the abolition of differen- given that power afterwards by legislation,
tial rates in their restricted sense. It does but it is not necessary for us now to give it.
not mean the institution of a uniform mile- But they would have an interdicting and
age rate, as so many timid minds fear. I judicial power. I think if we confer that
concur with all those who think that it power we should make it subject to appeal
means the institution of a uniform mileage to the highest court of the federation; and
rate, in saying that such a rate would be for this reason : that while the question
fatal to the producers of the colonies. We whether a rate is preferential as well as
must all agree that any system which meant differential is a mere matter of evidence,
a uniform mileage rate would be as injuri- still, since the application of the constitu-
ous to the producers of one colony as it tional provision entrusted to such a com-
would be to the producers of another. So mission is a matter of law, the sense in
that anything that necessarily brought which they interpret those provisions is a
that about must be rejected at once as matter that ought to be allowed to go for
erroneous. I hope that those outside, who final interpretation to the highest judicial
are writing letters to us, and who are body in the state.
putting letters in the papers suggesting Mr. GLYNN :. In that case what would
that the abolition of the present system be left for them to do in the way of regu-
means the replacement of it by a uni- lating the railways?
form mileage rate will take encourage-
The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon. mem-
ment, because no such thing is involved ber will see that there is a power of regu-
in the mere enforcement of the free-trade lation in the power of prohibition. If a
clauses of the constitution. An inter- rate is found in its working to interfere
state commission would not necessarily with the constitutional provisions laid
have power, so far as we sought to con- down in this bill, there will be plenty of
stitute it, to make any rate at all. They work, in its first years at any rate, for
would have an interdicting power, the
this inter-state commission to do. It will
power of maintaining and executing the have to decide on such questions as were
intercolonial free-trade clauses in the con- put to me by the Right Hon. Sir George
stitution bill. It would, therefore, be Turner, in Adelaide. Take the case of
their business, like the Inter-state Commis- a rate in New South Wales on goods
sion in America, to interdict those rates running both ways between Sydney and
which would interfere with free exchange Hay, and another rate on goods running
between state and state.
both ways between Sydney and Dubbo,
Mr. GLYNN : They have larger powers
Dubbo being to a certain extent outside
than that in America !
the influence of intercolonial competition.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I know they Questions in regard to such rates would
have, but we are not bound to go so far. I necessarily have to be determined by the
am speaking of the degree of power to the inter-state commission. They would have
inter-state commission which we think to determine whether the southern rate
should be embodied in the constitution. was so different from the other, that one
What we wish is that they should not in- was justified as a mere developmental
212
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 Sept., 1897.]
rate, while the other had assumed the they are produced, must still be regulated
form of a rate which gave a preference to by this : that, if we lay it down that pre-
one port over another.
ference shall not be given to the ports of
Mr. HIGGINS : Would the hon. and
one state over the ports of another state,
learned gentleman allow that power to be
say Victoria and New South Wales to
given to the inter-state commission ?
mention no other states—we must, irre-
spective of the spot of production, be con-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I would allow
tent to submit to a regulation which de-
that power to be given to them subject to
prives those states of the opportunity of
an appeal to the federal high court--that
injuring each other in that way. Let us
is to say, subject to an appeal to the very
look at this problem in another sense.
guardian of the constitution.
Does the whole of this question depend
Mr. Higgins: We should be perfectly upon Sydney and Melbourne ? Does feder-
satisfied with that!
ation depend upon Sydney and Melbourne?
The Hon. E. BARTON: These ques-
Does the commonwealth that is to be de-
tions were put to me in Adelaide, and I pend upon them? The man who thinks
did my best to answer them satisfactorily.
that comes to an opinion because he is one
I take it that the discrimen is this : Is
of something like half a million of people
in a great city who meet each other every
your rate a rate which embodies the prin-
ciple, not of less money, but of less money
day, and, being a large aggregation as
they stand together in a small space, think
pro rata for a long haul than for a short
one? If it embodies that principle, and no
they are the whole colony. But that is
not so.
When we recollect that neither
more, it is a perfectly just and right rate
in itself. If it goes beyond that, and you
of these capitals would exist in anything
find that it is either made or being used for
like its power and wealth if it were not for
the purpose of diverting traffic from one
the production of the country and the pri-
port in the Commonwealth to another port,
mary factor for us to look at is the factor
then you have fallen right into the trouble
of production--we must acknowledge that
of preferential rates, the avoidance of which
it is the producers of the country whose
must be a condition of intercolonial free-
interests are to be consulted in regard
to the railways; and I altogether object
trade. But, subject to all that, I take it
that differential rates, as understood by
to the custom which has sprung up of dis-
authorities on the question—that is, rates
cussing this railway question as affecting
which involve the principle of a less rate
purely the interests of Sydney and Mel-
bourne. We have to do with an Australian
for a longer haul-must be left to the
commonwealth.
inter-state commission.
We have not to do with
Mr. HIGGINS : Even as to goods pro-
Sydney particularly, or with Melbourne par-
ticularly; and those who will follow me in
duced in New South Wales ?
notaggrandising the interests of Melbourne
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not care above the interests of the rest of Victoria,
where the goods are produced, or what will find me following them in not aggran-
the goods are, because railways are com- dising the interests of Sydney above the
mercial concerns, even in the hands of interests of the rest of New South Wales.
the state. They have certain political fac- That is really the position in which we
tors behind them, but they are to a large stand in regard to this question. If that
extent a commercial concern, and I take is so, must we not consider that after all
it that the carriage of goods, wheresover the welfare and prosperity of our people
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
213
[8 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
and the whole of our people is our first the colonies, implanted in the constitution,
consideration ? I am not saying for a and I am sure that if it is so implanted,
moment, as Sir George Turner says, that the constituticn will have much greater
because Victoria first opened up a particu- hope of acceptance by the people of New
lar trade she is entitled to keep it. That South Wales outside of Sydney. As I have
is an argument which would not be true, said, I do not regard Sydney as having the
and which would not prevail as between right to control the whole of New South
two railway companies. It does not ap- Wales. Although I have almost invariably
ply as between two railway ownerships, represented a Sydney constituency, I have
and if it does not, and cannot, prevail be- never told my constituents such nonsense
tween two companies, how much less can as that. Inasmuch as we must give to those
it prevail as against a state-owned rail- who live outside our capitals that influence
way system which represents the produc- and that justice which is inseparable from
ing interests of a territory which is not their ºposition, and which is something, at
given over to the federation, but exists any rate, in counteraction of that central-
still in its entity? That cannot be. We ising tendency which is doing so much harm
cannot say for a moment that the first inasmuch as we must do this, I take it that
man who opens up a trade is entitled to our policy, with regard to railway rates,
keep it. I hope that the whole temper, the policy of our constitution, must be to
the whole spirit of our federation, irrespec. regard, first, the interests of the person who
tive of the railways altogether, will be is settled on the soil, if you like—the in-
against anything like monopoly. We do terests of the person, whether he lives at
not want to give a patent right to Victoria Sydney, or lives at Hay, or lives at Bourke,
or to New South Wales, because either who is a citizen of the country. That is
first opened up a territory. We do not our first concern, and if you in Melbourne,
ask for it for New South Wales, if any. or if we, in Sydney, exalt the interests of
body can take it from us by better manage- the citizen in either one of these capitals
ment. But we say we are entitled to have above the interests of the other citizens,
the results of our railway management, then I think we are untrue to our trust.
that we are entitled reasonably to cater Does not that bring us round to this point
for the wants of our people. That is all that the truth about the railway posi-
we ask.
tion is to be found in the interests of the
Mr. HIGGINS : But you want to tie our persons who use the railways ? Let the
hands!
citizen live at Dubbo, let him live at
The Hon. E. BARTON: We do not Hay, let him live at Tenterfield, or in
ask to tie the hands of Victoria or of any- the country around any one of those three
body else. All we urge is this—and I am places, we have to regard this question-
not saying this in any combative way at whether he is equally treated with the rest
all, much as my tone may seem to indicate of the country; and the policy which ag-
it-I am not saying that it is a necessary grandises the interests of the citizen of
thing to tie Victoria's hands. I wish to Sydney, whether he be a merchant or any-
give this principle in the constitution its body else, above the interests of the per-
full operation, and so anxious am I to give son who lives inland, and which forces
it that operation that, unlike some of my that person to trade in a certain way
hon. friends from New South Wales, I am whether he will or no—that is a policy
desirous of seeing this principle of an inter- which is not consistent with the justice
state commission, to do justice between we owe to that great constituency which
214 Commonuiealth of [8 SEPT.,. 1897.] Australia Bill.
N.
sent us here, and which is as large as the The Hon. E. BARTON: I think I
state represented. Therefore, I take it that have said pretty much the same as I said
in the whole of our dealings with this rail- in Adelaide. I was not understood in
way problem--and I want what I say to Adelaide; perhaps I have been more clear
be more suggestive than combative-in to-day.
all our dealings with this railway proposal The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:
we should consider that we are not dealing The Hon: E. BARTON: I am afraid
with a war of rates between Sydney and that there was sometimes in Adelaide a
Melbourne, that Sydney and Melbourne little atmosphere of suspicion which has
have no right between themselves to have rather disappeared like the morning mist.
a war of rates ; but that the interest to be That position would give the inter-state
consulted is the general interest of the commission power to prevent differential
public in each colony. That can only be rates only when they were preferential,
consulted by preventing rates giving a and not when they were absolutely deve-
preference to the ports of one colony over lopmental. My hon. and learned friend,
the ports of another, and, with that limita- Mr. Higgins, in his very well thought out
tion, the policy of a lower rate for a longer speech, put the question in this way: that
haulage, so far as it is a developmental we should either let the competitive prin-
rate, must be left over, both in New South ciple operate fully or not at all. I think
Wales and Victoria, as well as else- that remark was very fascinating as it
where.
looked ; but it must be accepted with
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I under-
some reservation.
As to the competitive
stand that the inter-state commission is to
principle, let it not operate at all to
have power to say whether a rate is for
any, extent in which it conflicts with in-
tercolonial free-trade. That is the object
the purpose of diverting trade from its
natural channel!
of the power which is given in the con-
stitution to regulate trade and commerce,
The Hon, E. BARTON:I am afraid
and of the injunction in the constitution :
that this question of natural channels is
that trade between different parts of the
being rather relied on as a shibboleth. I
commonwealth shall, after the imposition
do not exactly know whether a conun-
of & uniform tarif, be absolutely free.
drum is being put to me.
The inter-state
commission will have power to say whether thing which is purely speculative. In
We are not dealing here, I hope, with any.
a rate is antagonistic to free-trade between
America—and I am speaking more of de-
one state and another, and also whether it
is a rate which gives a preference to one
cisions which preceded the Inter-state Com-
mission than those which have been given
port over another. If it has that power and
since, for the reason that I am speaking
exercises it, surely the gain will be large,
about the interpretation of such powers as
to both New South Wales and Victoria.
I have just indicated-I think the indica-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : They will sit tions have been fairly clear. I am not
as a jury !
speaking now of decisions under the Inter-
The Hon. E. BARTON : They will sit state Commerce Act, because we shall not
as judge and jury.
have such an act for some time, and even
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Has the inter-state commission will not be
the hon. and learned member varied the
equivalent to such a drastic act as there is
opinion he gave in Adelaide I cannot in America ; but I venture to think that
exactly follow him!
the American decisions point to this :
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
215
[8 SEPT., 1897
Australia Billi
Mr. HIGGINS : Freedom of trade is not The Hon. E. BARTON: I think there
affected by preferential or by differential have been no differences there, and there
rates!
ought to be no differences under the con-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Free-trade
stitution so far as it is drawn here. I have
clearly has not in itself anything to do
to make the qualification which I thought
with differential railway rates, because
necessary from his remark, and subject to
you can put the competing railway lines
that qualification I quite agree with what
in the position of two public companies
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Higgins,
which compete by cheapening rates against
said. I believe it would be a righteous
each other. If free-trade is the cheap- thing; I believe it would be a matter also
ening of production, and the cheapening which would conciliate to this measure a
of production is the indiret effect of
great deal of support in every colony if, on
cheaper rates, one may say that differen-
the face of the instrument, there were im-
tial rates are consonant with free-trade; planted the institution of some tribunal
but they will not be consonant, as they
which would substitute a non-political and
are used now, with intercolonial free impartial body for the dealing with the rail-
trade. There is nothing against free-trade
ways and all that kind of trade at the
in differential rates in a colony; but, with
dictation of a minister, which after federa-
preferential rates between two colonies,
tion would so destroy all right of free in-
there may be something which may in-
tercourse. If we put a right of that kind
terfere with a system of free-trade be-
in the constitution, we shall go far to
tween the two. That is a difference which
satisfy many-I am talking, not of our
we can well appreciate, and that is the statesmen or politicians, but of our farmers
difference which is fairly brought out
and producers--who say, "Take over the
by the decisions in the United States,
railways," if in substitution for the unfair
the effect of which is to leave to each management of the railways we give that
state the management of its own inter- system of administration and prohibition
nal affairs, even in matters of carriage,
of injustice which would ensure that their
except in so far as the exercise of that
interests would be reasonably dealt with,
power would derogate from the free in-
not in contradistinction from the in-
terchange of trade between state and
terests of citizens of large towns, but
state.
on an equality of citizenship of town and
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
country.
The Hon. J.H. GORDON : Is not the real
The Hon. E. BARTON: Very much test that no traffic shall be carried at a
so, and there is great force in what is put loss?
forward by my hon, and learned friend, The Hon. E. BARTON : To a very large
Mr. Glynn, that there might not be some- extent it is. I fancy in the evidence which
body to raise the question of differential he gave in Adelaide Mr. Eddy pointed out
rates. But we find that these questions that all the rates he was charging to the
have arisen, although perbaps not so much Riverina district were resulting practically
as was expected, in America, and I should
in a profit; but I am not disposed to throw
very much distrust the legal ability of a bombshell amongst hon. members by re-
many of my friends here if they could not
ferring to matters of that sort. It may be
suggest a way in which, if occasion arose, that there will be such competition be-
to raise the question.
tween colony and colony in the way of rail
An Hon. MEMBER :
ways that while rates have been resulting
216
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.1
t
in profits they have been so cut down that take over the debts without the railways;
the margin of profit is sensibly diminished, that the credit of the commonwealth will
and has reached that point at which, in the be clearly strong enough to sustain the
very interests of the railway themselves, operation, because the population of
as well as of the producers of the colony, the commonwealth will be its strength;
there ought to be a reform.
and that intercolonial free-trade can be
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Give us
secured against invasion on the part of
an independent tribunal with full powers,
railway managers, although the manage-
ment remains in the hands of those who
and the whole thing will be settled !
built them. Before I conclude I should like
The Hon. E. BARTON: An impartial,
again to say that the federal spirit of which
non-political tribunal.
I spoke in opening my remarks has been
Mr. McMILLAN: Would the hon. mem-
still further evidenced in the reception of
ber allow that tribunal to take the dis-
what I have had to say, and that I find,
tance to a port as the basis of the charge,
as we go along, a less degrce of suspicion.
no matter whether it went through another
There are those amongst us in this colony
colony or not? Suppose it went partly whose consciences are not satisfied unless
through New South Wales and partly they term their intercolonial neighbours a
through Victoria, and the total distance
band of robbers. They remind one very
was so many miles, would be allow the
much of that old sketch by John Leech
tribunal to make the rate, as if that dis-
of the two countrymen, one of whom says
tance were all in one territory, on a differ-
to the other, “Who's him, Bill ?" "Dunno;
ential basis?
a stranger." " Then leave a brick at
The Hon, E. BARTON: I think the him." I hope our visitors so far have
tribunal ought to be allowed to consider not had many bricks thrown at them.
this question: Is the rate which is charged I hope they will find during the whole of
ostensibly on the principle of a low rate their stay here that the federal spirit exists
for a long haul, merely a cloak to a design strongly in New South Wales, notwith-
to dirert traffic from another port? The standing the rather bigoted and intolerant
substantial question of fact is this : Does views that a few, even of our most re-
this thing look merely a differential rate, spected and esteemed fellow-citizens hold.
as it would always be made to look, or is I would not detract from the ability and
it in effect a preference? If the commis- character of those gentlemen by one word
sion can discover as a matter of evidence, that I can say, because they are gentlemen
that it is used as a cloak for the diversion for whom I entertain, in some cases, per-
of traffic from another port against the pro- sonal affection. But we, in this Convention,
visions of the constitution, it does not mat- can discriminate, at any rate, between argu-
ter on what principle it is charged. I think, ment and invective, and we are not going
at any rate on this question, I have suffici- to answer invective with invective. I hope
ently indicated what seemed to me sugges- we are here simply to offer arguments
tive matters for the consideration of the and to meet then. That spirit has been
Finance Committee, and I do not wish to go thoroughly shown, and there has been an
beyond that. I come to this conclusion, absence of the former suspicion which
that the constitution need not, and that it seemed to prevail in a certain line of argu-
should not, provide compulsorily for the ment about railway matters. Tne absence
purchase of the railways by the common- of that feeling, I think, betokens that co-
wealth ; that it is advisable and right to operation which will result in the framing of
1
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
217
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
a workable constitution. Let it not be very glad if some direction could be given
supposed in anything I have said, that I to the committee of the desire of the Con-
have come here, as I have been accused of vention in regard to the manner in which
doing, for the purpose of surrendering the they should frame their proposals, because
interests of the colony in which I was born. that would, to a very great extent, lessen
I hope that all of us are here for the pur- the work we have to do. As it is, we have
pose of securing justice to all. When I heard the views of several members, and
said, in a recent speech, that the members they are very divergent. We shall have to
of this Convention were all for each, and go through the whole of the proposals and
each for all, I meant that whilst each discuss them very fully, and then bring up
member was charged with seeing that the a scheme which will probably be met by
interests of his colony were not unduly an amendment to refer the whole matter
sacrificed, he did not come here merely as to the federal parliament. Is it fair to the
a partisan, but in the prime hope that in Finance Committee that they are to spend
whatever action he should take, he would night after night—they will have to sit at
secure as much justice for everybody that night when the Convention is not sitting-
surrounded him as he sought for himself. endeavouring to formulate a scheme, having
Perhaps, as this clause is part of the whole at the same time in their mind the know-
scheme of finance, it will be a desirable ledge that, perhaps a majority of the Con-
thing to formally move its postponement, vention intend to refer the whole matter to
and then go on to other clauses of the the federal parliament? As far as I am con-
bill. I should like to take the opinion of cerned, it will practically take the heart out
hon. members whether it would or would of me. I will not feel inclined to work the
not be a desirable thing to postpone clauses matter out with the same spirit as I would
of minor importance, and proceed at once if I felt that whatever scheme was going
to consider such matters as equal repre- to be proposed would be discussed upon its
sentation in the senate and the relative merits. I should be very glad if the matter
money powers of the two houses. If were allowed to remain in abeyance until
that course meets the wishes of hon, mem- to-morrow morning, and if hon. members
bers generally, I think it might be de- were in the meantime to think it over, and
sirable. It might be a desirable thing if some hon. gentleman who feels strongly
before we part to so deal with the most that the whole subject should be leff to the
important questions as to show—even if judgment of the federal parliament would
we could not finish our work that the test the feeling of the Convention in a
matters left for solution are minor ones. full meeting. If a majority of the Conven-
I should like, in the first instance, to ob- tion is prepared to declare that at once,
tain the views of Sir George Turner as to well and good—we shall have to abide
whether it would be an advisable thing by that decision. But I feel that it is
not to go through the bill clause by clause; throwing upon the Finance Committee an
but, inasmuch as we are agreed upon the
immense amount of work, in regard to
major portion of the bill, to pick out those which, at the time they are doing it, at the
questions upon which most serious dif- time they are endeavouring to reconcile
ferences arise and argue them.
the various proposals and formulate a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- scheme, they will feel they are perhaps
toria) [5-26]: I mentioned when addressing doing an immense amount of labour which
the Chamber this morning that, as a mem- in the end will be useless. I suggest that
ber of the Finance Committee, I should be: the matter should be allowed to remain in
R
218
Aizstralia: Bill.
Commonwealth of
18 SEPT., 1897.]
abeyance until tomorrow morning, and The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Clearly, if
that hon. members should think it over ini we are in the position: no.w of. having to
the meantime:
say whether we will or will not remiti
An HON.. MEMBER: Why not now. }. the whole financial problem to the federal
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I. parliament, we must first of all know how
have no objection to doing it now; but that parliament is going to be constituted.
perhaps it would be better to give the That is absolutely essential. On that: de
evening to its consideration.
pends the whole scheme. I apprehend,
The Hon. E. BARTON: Why not deal from the remarks made by the right hon.
with the minor clauses now as far as equal member; Mr. Reid, on this question-re-
state representation, and leave that until marks whicli met with the approbation of
to-morrow?
almost every member of the Convention
The Right Hon.. SirG. TURNER: Thati that when he suggested leaving the whole
means sitting later.
question. to: the federal parliament, he had
The Hon. E. BARTON : I am not going in his mind's eye such a parliament as is
to ask hon. members to come here in the constituted by the bill.
If he meant: any-
night this week ; but I shall ask them to thing else; Ig. at any rate, was deluded into
sit three nights next week !
approbation of his remarks. Everybody
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus- I think understood him to say that he was
tralia) [4:29] : The question put by the willing to leave the whole question to the
Premier of Victoria seems to me to be this: federal parliament as we now conceive it
that the Finance Committee would like to would be constituted. That assumption
know whether or not the whole financial underlay. the whole of the right hon. gen:
scheme is to be referred to the federal par- tleman's remarks, and if he intended any-
liament. Does not that depend upon how thing else I am sure that he would have
the federal parliament is constituted f It been: frank and honest enough to have said
is impossible for hon. members: to give a That is the assumption upon which
reply to that question until they know the his remarks—which were delivered withi
constitution of the body to which the finan: very great impressiveness and great elo-
cial matter is to be intrusted. If the quence---met with the approbation of hon.
financial problem is to be left to a federal members. That being so, I for one would be
parliament, constituted as it is constituted willing to vote to leave the whole financial
by the bill before the Convention, I shall problem to the federal parliament. But had
vote for that proposal ; but if notif we not better state a simple "aye” to that
there is an alteration in the Constitution question.right off—as: I believe it:would be
Bill, and that appears to be a matter for
voted? Then we shall know where we are:
further discussion, I shall be against it. If Until we know where we are on that essen-
the position is that the Finance Committee tial point, it is impossible for us to say how
wish to know whether or not the whole we will deal with this matter or if we will
financial question is to be left to the federal
leave it to the federal parliament.
parliament--if they wish that to be decided The CHAIRMAN : As a matter of order,
we must first of all decide how the fed I would point out that the question before
eral parliament is to be constituted. That the Committee is clause 88, which must be
appears to me to be absolutely essential. dealt with either agreed to, negatived,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We or postponed.
should have considered that question first, The Hon. E. BARTON: I will move that
if that be so !
it be postponed !
SO.
V
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
2,19
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Aivustralia. Bill.
Others may
The CHAIRMAN : If that clause be post- tainty. Therefore, although it may seem
poned, we shall go back to clause 1. rather ungracious. towards those who have
The Hon. E. BARTON: Thatiis the.course taken a great deal of labour' upon them-
I wisla to take !
selves and no one deserves greater recog-
The Right. Hon. Siv G. TURNER nition for it than the right hon. member,
(Victoria) [4-32]: I desire to point out to Sir George Turner-and although I also see
the hon, member; Mr. Gordon, that, whilst that the labour may be serious, still I hope
his proposition is very good to some hon, that this Committee will ask the right hon.
members, the conrerse of it is very good gentleman and those associated with them
to other hon., members: Some hon. mem- on the Finance Committee, to take upon
bers may think it is perfectly fair to say themselves the duty of investigating the
that, if they know what the constitution proposals that have been made, and of
of the senate is to be, they are prepared to reporting to us whether in their opinion
leave this question to them.
any one of. those proposals is or is not
say,
“ If we know that this question is or practicable. If they report that any one
is not to be left to the senate, then: we can of those schemes, or all of them, although
decide how the senate is to be consti- practicable in a certain sense, are objection-
tuted.” The same difficulty will arise under able for the reason that they might give rise
any circumstances; but I myself have no to popular misconception, or for any other
objection to fall in with my hon. friend's reason, we shall know exactly the position
desire. I am perfectly prepared to have We occupy. If, on the other hand, they
the other matter discussed first, and de- report that any one scheme is free from
cided one way, or the otlier, if it will ob- objection, let that one be submitted to
viate the great difficulty I feel the Finance criticism, and, if the Convention as a whole
Committee will be in unless they know fall in witb that: view, there will be no
the mind of the Convention with regard need to put the motion that the matter be
to referring the whole subject to the federal referred to the federal parliament.
parliament. If it. will get rid of the diffi- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Two
culty, I am perfectly prepared to give way premiers have announced their readiness
to my hon. friend, and, as far as I am con- to refer the question to the federal parlia-
cerned, consent to the discussion in regard ment !
to the rights of the senate coming on. Mr. WISE: That is their personal
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [4:33]: opinion.
There is another consideration which occurs The Right Eor. Sir G. TURNER: The
to me, and that is that the determination suggestion appeared to meet with general
by this Committee as to whether this mat- approbation !
ter shall or shall not be referred to the Mr. WISE: I did not understand the
federal parliainent must be governed very · right hon, the Prime Minister of New South
largely by the conclusions arrived at by: Wales. to mean that he would go into the
the committee of financial experts. Many Finance Committee with any fixed deter-
schemes have been suggested, and if, on ex- mination to refuse to consider any schewe,
amination by the experts who have been ap- but that he' merely gave his own personal
pointed, anyone of these schemes is declared expression of opinion when he said that he
to be practicable and likely to command thought that no scheme had yet been sug-
universal favour, I suppose that every one gested which was good enough to recon-
of us would be prepared to adopt it rather mend solidly to the people of. Australia for
than to leave the matter in a state of upcer- adoption. His opinion may alter. I do
220
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
ar-
not apprehend that the discussion of the views might not be properly put in identi-
matter will take any great length of time cally the same words as would represent
or that the Finance Committee need meet the views of the majority of other hon.
very often. It is not requisite for them members who have spoken. Undoubtedly
to go into many details. The broad out- we arranged to have a general discussion,
line of the scheme is well known.
not for the purpose of directing, but for
An HON. MEMBER: What is the scheme? the purpose of assisting the Finance Com-
Mr. WISE: I only know of four schemes mittee, with a view of allowing them to
that have been proposed. They can be know the trend of our minds. Now, the
considered in broad outline, and the deter- right hon. gentleman, Sir George Turner,
mination of the Committee given upon asks for a direction—a direction which
each of them. I hope that the suggestion would make the appointment of the
of the Right Hon. Sir George Turner will Finance Committee absolutely unneces-
not be carried out without serious con- sary, and which he says very truly would
sideration.
save him a very great deal of trouble, be-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South cause it would leave him nothing to do.
Australia) [4:37]: When the Finance Mr. WISE : If we can give a direction
Committee were appointed, it was
we do not want a committee !
ranged that we should have a general dis- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
cussion, and I understood the right bon. is what I was endeavouring to avoid ex-
member, Sir George Turner, to entirely pressing in too clear language, but I wished
agree
with that. There was not the slight- to imply that.
est suggestion that we should come to a The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
final conclusion that must bind us, and (Victoria) [4:39]: I said so myself. My
which would make the appointment of the feeling is this : If the majority of the
Finance Committee unnecessary.
representatives here have made up their
The Hon. E. BARTON: A discussion was minds that the proper solution of this diffi-
asked for, for the guidance of the Finance culty is to refer the whole subject to the
Committee !
federal parliament, as we refer the subject
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The of the tariff, what on earth is the use of
Finance Committee themselves desired a the Finance Committee being appointed
general discussion, in order that we should at all? Let some one take the responsibility
let them know our views generally. of moving such a motion, if the Conven-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : And tion is of that opinion, when we next meet.
that discussion took a turn which showed If it is not of that mind, the Finance Com-
that the appointment of the Finance Com- mittee can go to work heart and soul and
mittee was unnecessary !
endeavour to bring the best scheme they -
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Until can devise before the Convention. This
the Prime Minister of Victoria spoke there the Convention can tear to pieces or deal
was, perhaps, a good deal to be said in with as they think fit. If a majority of
favour of his present point of view—that hon. members, as the cheering would appa-
the discussion took a turn which might rently show to be the case, have made up
fairly enough have resolved itself into a their minds that the proper course is to
clause which we might have discussed in leave the whole matter to the federal
a very short time and passed-and I am parliament, I, as one of the Finance Com-
not at all sure that, in spite of the speech mittee, object to its being referred to the
of the Prime Minister of Victoria, his committee.
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
221
[8 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. Sir J. W.DOWNER (South might ascertain the general views of hon.
Australia) (4.40]: I would suggest to the members of the Convention.
Right Hon. Sir George Turner that it The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Their
may be the opinion of the members of the general views upon the scheme before us !
Convention that, although the matter
The Hon. E. BARTON: I did not un-
should be left to the federal parliament, derstand the right hon. gentleman to mean
there should be a provision in the consti- that the Finance Committee desired any.
tution guaranteeing a minimum return for thing more than a discussion which would
a certain number of years, or as one of the enable them to give their different relative
right hon. gentleman's colleagues has sug- weights to the arguments advanced. I
gested, for ever. Suppose that happens to think that what the Convention would like
be the view of a considerable portion of to see the Finance Committee do is to
the Convention—and certainly I am sure consider the arguments which have been
the right hon, gentleman is astute enough advanced in the debates, without giving
to see that it is the view of five-sixths of undue weight to cheers which may have
the members here that a guarantee should
followed this or that remark; to compare
be given, for some time at all events---does the facts and the reasons, and then to bring
he think that there is no work for the up some scheme for the adoption of the
Finance Committee to do?
Convention. I do not think the right hon.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No, I gentleman need trouble himself particu-
think there will be a great deal for them larly with the fact that one speaker may
to do!
have received more applause for his speech
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
.
than another speaker received. Sometimes
delighted with the right hon. gentleman's we find thatvery able men have the faculty
admission.
of putting things in so effective a way that
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It is they receive applause for their speeches
only during the first five years that there which reflection does not confirm.
will be trouble. Afterwards there will be The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
no trouble !
is why the hon. gentleman is always
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: In cheered !
that case the right hon. gentleman will
The Hon. E. BARTON: That may be
have something to exercise his pertinacity so, and what I have said may help to clear
and perspicacity upon, and in doing so he up any doubt on the subject that may be
will have the advantage of our more or in the right hon. gentleman's mind. I
less ill-considered opinions. He will be think it is intended that the Finance Com-
able, by means of his financial knowledge, mittee should have a free hand in weigh-
to reduce our ideas into a form which will ing arguments, and certainly there will
be effective to carry out the views which be no endeavour to force them to estimate
we hold. I think it is not necessary to the weight of the opinions given in this
have any clearer understanding on this House by the number of members who
subject, and in my opinion we ought now give them support. They will estimate the
to go on with the bill.
opinions by the reasoning power behind
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South them. After all, the reasons behind the sug-
Wales) [4:43]: I understood the Right gestions will be the root of their considera-
Hon. Sir George Turner to wish for a dis- tion by the Committee. As my right hon.
cussion upon the financial clauses of the friend has indicated, I would suggest that
bill in order that the Finance Committee we consider between this and to-morrow
222
Night Settings.
Night :Sittings.
19 SEPT., 1897.]
whether we should go on with the question The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
of equal representation in the senate, or Wales): The nights on which I suggest
should first pass the preceding clauses of that the Convention should sit are Mon-
the bill.
day, Wednesday, and Friday..
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:: I think The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria):
that we should determine the point now, Might I suggest to the leader of the Con-
so that hon. members may be prepared for vention that he should consider whether
the discussion to-morrow.
it would not be possible to lengthen our
The Hon. E. BARTON: Unless I re- day sittings, and not to have resort ito
ceive a very strongly supported sugges- night sittings ? For instance, we wight
tion to the .contrary, it will be my duty to meet an hour earlier in the morning, and
simply submit the clauses in their ordinary sit an hour later in the afternoon, and if
sequence. Hon. members may take it for that were not sufficient, we might sit on
granted that unless between this and to- Saturdays. I must say that, personally,
morrow I receive such an expression of when we had night sittings in Adelaide, I
opinion, I shall ask the Chairman to put felt it quite impossible to devote that at-
the clauses as they follow one another in tention which should be given to questions
the bill. I think we might now dispose of which had arisen, which were in process of
this matter by postponing the clause under settlement, or which were likely to arise.
consideration and reverting to clause 1, If we have the evenings to ourselves, we
when I will:move to report progress
and
ga
shall be better able to prepare for and keep
on with the bill in the ordinary way to- pace with our work. I would suggest to
morrow.
the hon. gentleman that we might sit some
Clause 88 postponed.
extra hours each day, and, if necessary,
Clause 1 (Short Title).
add Saturday to the days of meeting. Of
Progress reported.
course, it will be for a majority of members
Convention adjourned at 4:47 p.m.
of the Convention to decide the matter ro
but the course which I have suggested is :
that which I myself should prefer.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
THURSDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
Wales): I would point out to the hon.
member that there is some difficulty in
our sitting earlier in the morning on ac
Night Sittings--Amendments — The Mayor of Sydney's
Luncheon-Commonwealth of Australia Bill-Return. count of the printing required to be done
for the Convention. There is quite trouble
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30 enough as it is in getting the printing
throughintime for the use of hon. members.
NIGHT SITTINGS.
I would remind the hon. :member that we
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South shall have reached the seventh day of our
Australia) : I desire to ask the leader of sittings before having a night sitting, and
the Convention a question without notice. if we begin night sittings next week, we
He has stated that he proposes to ask the might then, by taking two or three nights,
Convention to sit at night on three occa- save ourselves arduous labour afterwards.
sions next week. It would be convenient I would suggest to hon. members that it
to some hon. members if an intimation would be better to take time by the fore-
were given by the hon. gentleman as to lock in that way. If the time is not other-
what those nights will be.
wise likely to be saved, that is one means
aim,
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Amencinerts. [9 SEPT., 1897.] Mayor of Sydney's Luncheon. 223
us.
of overtaking it. If, on the other hand, it for the purpose of attending this luncheon.
is likely to be saved, then our labours will We might easily select from each delega-
be eased finally
tion one or two hon. members to represent
I
propose, as far as Victoria is con-
AMENDMENTS.
cerned, to ask .our President and Speaker
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE
to be present. If we all attend the luncheon
(Western Australia): I observe that no
we know it will be very late in the after-
amendments appear upon the notice-paper.
noon before we are able to get away, and
It will be extremely inconvenient if they when we return here, judging from our
are not before us when we have to consider
past experience of functions of the kind,
tliem.
we shall not feel inclined to settle down to
The Hon. E. BARTON : They are all work in the way in which we generally
printed upon a separate paper !
do.
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE:: The Hon. E. BARTON: Iintend to be
I am referring to amendments of which here again at 2:30. It amounts to half an
notice has been given by hon.members since hour's extension of the usual adjourn-
the Convention commenced its sittings. ment.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Any amendments The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
of which hon. members desire to give
feel.certain that we shall not be able to
notice will be printed without their formally get away by that hour.
giving notice of them!
The Hon. E. BARTON: I shall take
ON:
The Hon. Sir JAMES LEE-STEERE :
care to do so. Perhaps the President will
intimate that he will take the chair at
Amendments have been handed in but
have not been printed !
2:30 o'clock, and that intimation I take
it will be the magnet which will draw us.
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the hon.
I myself will undertake to be here ready
member refers to the amendments of wbich
to go on with business at the hour I have
notice has been given by the Right Hon.
named
Sir John Forrest they have already been
The PRESIDENT : The intimation will re-
printed and will be distributed at once.
quire to be given by the Chairman of Com-
mittees. I have no doubt that hon. gen-
MAYOR OF SYDNEY'S LUNCHEON.
tlemen will give effect to the wishes of the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
Convention in the matter.
(Victoria): I desire to ask the leader of
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
the Convention what is proposed to be tralia): I would suggest to the Right Hon.
done to-day with regard to the Mayor of
the Premier of Victoria that it would be
Sydney's luncheon? I understand that it
hardly courteous to the Mayor of Sydney
takes place at half past 1 o'clock.
if, after the whole of the Convention hare
The Hon. E. BARTON : It appears accepted his invitation, as
, I presume they
upon
the
programme in the hands of hon.
have, and preparation has been made to
members as fixed for that hour, but I have entertain the whole of the Convention, we
been informed by telephone that the hour
send only a delegation from each colony.
is 1 o'clock.
If by attending the luncheon for a short
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : time we can be courteous, and at the same
What I was about to suggest is that there time not delay business, I would suggest
is no necessity for the whole of the Con- to the right hon. gentleman that that would
vention to adjourn for a considerable time be the more appropriate course to take.
224
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Omit so
con-
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL. munity, or the body politic. But the name
In Committee (consideration resumed of our country ought, I venture to submit,
from Sth September, vide page 222): be simply "Australia. ”
Clause 1. This act may be cited as the Con-
Mr. HIGGINS: You want some common
stitution of the Commonwealth of Australia. noun?
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
Mr. SYMON: The proper noun is Aus-
of New South Wales :
tralia, just as United States of America is
cominonwealth," line 2, insert "domi-
the name of that great country. We do
nion," and substitute “dominion" for
not want to import into it the name com-
monwealth" whenever occurring in subsequent
monwealth.”
Commonwealth designates
parts of the bill.
The CHAIRMAN : I take it that this will the political condition, that is all. I do
be a test vote as to whether the word not propose to argue it, but when we come
commonwealth” or the word "dominion”
to clause 3, I shall move the omission of
shall be used, so as to decide it one way or
the words “the commonwealth of” with
the other, and it will not be necessary to
the view of leaving the name of the coun-
put the same amendment again to the
try to which we ought to be proud to
Committee.
belong, as simply “ Australia." I think we
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (10:41]: should be proud to give it that name without
I do not rise for the purpose of supporting any other prefix, or other noun or word of
the substitution of the word "dominion any description, but simply the plain name
for the word “commonwealth," but I rise
" Australia." I do not propose to support
for the purpose of reiterating what I was the amendment which has been submitted.
enabled to say at the Adelaide session that Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
it
appears to me that the word "
common- [10:44]: When the proper time comes, I
wealth ” might very well be omitted alto- propose to move that the word
gether. I do not wish to argue the view tralia" be omitted with a view of inserting
which I then submitted, and which would the word " Australasia," because in future
more properly be given effect to in clause we hope to have New Zealand, Fiji, and
3. I would not have directed attention to British New Guinea under the same
it now except for the intimation which dominion.
you were good enough to make that this The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
would be taken as a test vote as to whether Wales) [10:45]: This amendment, which
the word “commonwealth ” should be re- was made by the Legislative Council of
tained. In clause 1 it is simply the title New South Wales, was moved with a view
of the act. There will have to be an Im- of testing whether the title of the new
perial act passed, and so far as I am con- confederation should be "dominion" or
cerned I have no objection to keep the commonwealth.” I opposed this amend-
title which is there given to it. But in ment, but I moved a prior amendment on
clause 3 it says,
- The colonies shall be which this was an amendment, that the
united in a federal constitution under the short title of the act be the “ Australian
name of the Commonwealth of Australia." Commonwealth Constitution Act." I think
I still adhere to the view which I ex- it ought to be called the "Australian Com-
pressed in Adelaide, that it ought to be monwealth Constitution Act," and not the
under the name of "Australia." Australia “ Constitution of the Commonwealth of
would be a dominion and a commonwealth Australia," because there is more than the
whatever the name. « Commonwealth" constitution here. There is an Imperial
expresses the well-being of the entire com- act which we suggest should be passed.
- Aus-
06
Commonwealth of
225.
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. SYMON : And there is a commercial mentioned. But throughout the whole of
bargain !
the bill the Crown will be mentioned, and
The Hon. E. BARTON: The act is therefore the Crown will be bound. Sir
more than a constitution, taking it as a Samuel Griffith has drawn attention to this
whole. Clause 8 says “the constitution
matter. He says:
shall be as follows." It clearly defines that This section begins with the words “ This act
what is prior to clause 8 is not in the
shall bind the Crown”-an expression which
is at least unusual in statutes, and which is
constitution.
surely unnecessary. How can it be suggested
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There would
that an act in which the Crown is continually
be a double interpretation !
mentioned, and which establishes a new doinin.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes. If the ion under the Crown, does not bind the Crown?
amendment is negatived we might call it I fully concur with these remarks. I cer-
" The Australian Commonwealth Consti- tainly would urge upon the hon. gentleman
tution Act."
that he should omit these words.
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT(New The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
South Wales) (10.46] : I am not opposed South Wales) [10:49]: The hon. member
to the introduction of the word “dominion" will admit that it should be put beyond
into this clause ; but I am perfectly satis- question that every portion of this act
fied that if we are to discuss every trifling binds the Crown. It is true there are a
amendment we shall never get through number of sections which expressly bind
with the bill. I do not think it is neces- the Crown, but this provision is inserted
sary to discuss this amendment. The in order thaj it should be put beyond all
Adelaide Convention, by a majority, hav- doubt that every portion of the constitu-
ing come to a determination, is it likely tion binds the Crown. Although the form
that they will go back upon that at the of expression is unusual, it has this to re-
suggestion of our Legislative Council, commend it, it is very concise and carries
which has done everything it possibly could out exactly our meaning. I see no reason
to destroy the bill ?.
for omitting the words.
Amendment negatived.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [10:50]:
Amendment (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
I would ask the hon. and learned member,
That the words “ the Constitution of the
Mr. Barton, whether he thinks that these
Commonwealth of Australia" be omitted, with a words are sufficiently specific to negative
view of inserting the following words :-"the
the prerogative of the Crown? The inten-
Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act."
tion undoubtedly is to prevent the possi-
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
bility of our taking away the right of appeal
Clause 2. This act shall bind the Crown, and to the Privy Council. In Canada the words
its provisions referring to her Majesty the Queen
used were, “Such judgment shall not be
shall extend to her heirs and successors in the
sovereignty of the United Kingdom of Great
susceptible to appeal," but they were held
Britain and Ireland.
to be insufficient. Lord Cairns, in a case
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic. in 1876 on which this question turned up,
toria) [10:48] : I should like to call atten- stated that the words must be definite and
tion to these words, “ This act shall bind precise, that they must amount to a direct
the Crown." We know we have to send negation of the prerogative before they can
this bill to the Imperial Parliament to be take away the prerogative. The principal
passed. I cannot see why these words object of these words is to take away the
should be inserted. Of course the act will royal prerogative so that subsequent por-
not bind the Crown unless the Crown is tions of the bill may be effective. The
226
Australia Bidi.
Conumonwealth of
[2 SEPT., 1897)
Canadian act which was passed in conse- the selection of one phrase or another to
quence of that decision begins with the accomplish the same thing.
words, " Notwithstanding any royal prero- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
gative." What I would suggest with defer- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I take it that
ence to the judgment of others is that we the hon. and learned member, Mr. Glynn,
ought in this section to distinctly negative is in accord with the hon. members who
the prerogative, because it will then operate have drafted the bill as to its being made
right through the act. I think we should effective. I would ask the hon, and learned
begin the clause with the words, “Not- member in charge of the bill whether it
withstanding any royal prerogative this would not be advisable at the outset to
act shall bind the Crown."
make an arrangement as regards the mean-
An Hon. MEMBER: W11 not those words ing of expressions in the bill that ques-
be too strong?
tions of that kind shall be allowed to stand
Mr. GLYNN: The fact that Sir Samuel over until the close of our proceedings,
Griffith did not understand the meaning when the assistance of all legal members,
of the words proves that they cannot or any of those who have questions of inter-
be strong. He, as a distinguished lawyer, pretation to bring forward, may be invited
must be admitted to know that the pre- to go through the measure, if necessary,
rogative must be taken away by express once more on the question of drafting, and
words, or it will still remain.
drafting alone? It is most undesirable that
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR:: He thought these questions should be launched here
that they were not necessary. That was without notice at every stage when we are
his objection!
discussing the question of the ascertain-
Mr. GLYNN: He did not see the ment of the purposes we wish to effect. If
object for which they were inserted. the legal members of the Convention and
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : He did not other members can agree to reserve all such
see the necessity !
questions till the close of our proceedings,
Mr. GLYNN: If the object had been till we have settled what it is we desire to
accomplished, he would have seen that at do, and then discuss means of doing it, or
once.
As the hon. and learned member, the form of the clauses in which those pur-
Mr. O'Connor, bas pointed out, the act does poses should be embodied, it appears to me
bind the Crown. In clause 1 of the consti- that we might save much time.
tution the Crown is distinctly stated to be The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
part of the commonwealth, and a section Wales) [10:54]: My hon. and learned
in an act of Parliament must bind the friend, Mr. Deakin, has anticipated me,
Crown, because the Crown is one of the because I was intending to make that very
consenting parties to the legislation. I suggestion to the Committee. I am very
would call attention to the fact that the glad he has made the suggestion, and I
prerogative ought to be distinctly nega
thank him for doing so. What I would
tived in the act.
like to do, if there is time for it, is to leave
The Hon. A.DEAKIN(Victoria)[10-52]: aside questions of mere drafting until we
Here we are at the very outset engaged in have gone through all the clauses, and
a discussion on a question of drafting—on that the Drafting Committee should have
the choice of an expression
a day, possibly two days, in which to go
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: through the bill with a view to make any
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I take it that desirable alterations in drafting in the
the point raised is distinctly a question of light of amendments which may have been
[Mr. Glynn.
Cominonwealth of
2:27
[9 SEPI., 1897.11
Australia Bill.
made by hon. members, and that then the friend, Mr. Glynn, also called attention to
bill should be formally recommitted for the fact that the prerogative was not pro-
the purpose of enabling hon. members to perly negatived. The particular instance
judge of that work.
he referred to, namely, the abolition of the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I would right of appeal to the Privy Council, is ex-
suggest that the Drafting Committee should pressly prosided for by a clear and definite
have the advantage of the suggestions, and negation, which he says is necessary in
that any hon. member who has any sug- order to negative the prerogative of the
gestions to make should forward them to Or.own. He must have overlooked the
the Drafting Committee, I think the draft- language used in clause 75 which Sir
ing of this clause is wrong, and ought to Samuel Griffith, in his criticism, thought
be altered—and let the Drafting Commit- was too direct-in fact direct to the point
tee exercise its own discretion in regard to
of discourtesy, if I may say so. I am sure
alterations.
there was no intention of that kind on the
The Hon. E. BARTON: I quite agree part of any one. I believe that if my hon.
with my right hon. friend. I shall be very
and learned friend had remembered that
clause we should not have had this dis-
glad if my legal friends who notice any
cussion.
fault in the drafting, or think that an im-
provement can be made, will make a sug-
Clause agreed to.
gestion to the Drafting Committee, if pos-
Clause 3. It shall be lawful for the Queen,
sible in writing, and certainly there will
by and with the advice of her Majesty's most
honorable Privy Council, to declare by pro-
not be any disposition to take high ground
clamation that, on and after a day therein
in inatters of that sort. Now, with refer- appointed, not being later than six months 5
ence to this particular matter, we have after the passing of this act, the people of
considered it well, and we think that a
[here name the colonies which have aclopted
the constitution] (hereinafter severally in-
wider form of words could not be selected,
cluded in the expression " the said colonies"
and that their very width gives them shall be united in a federal constitution under 10
strength in an act.
the name of "The Commonwealth of Aus-
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (10.56]:
tralia"; and on and after that day the com-
monwealth shall be established under that
Icertainly.donot quiteapproveofthesugges-
tion thrown out by the right hon. member, The CHAIRMAN: There is an amend-
Sir George Turner, as to sending in anemo- ment suggested by the Legislative Council
randa with regard to matters of drafting. of New South Wales to omit the word
That would be an exceedingly invidious « federal” in line 10.
thing to do, and really I do not think we The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
are here for the purpose of verbal criti- South Wales) [10:58]: I have a prior
cism. It would take up a great deal of amendment to more, sir. I wish to call the
our time. You would never know what attention of the Committee to the limita-
was going to happen, and if a member dis- tion of six months in the clause. It pro-
sented from the Drafting Committee we vides for a proclamation to be made, and
might have a debate hereafter upon it. A fixes a date for not less than six months
much better way will be for us to suggest after the passing of the act, at which the
amendments. That is all I understood may commonwealth is to be established. That
right hon. friend intended to do. I did is a very important date, because on that
not understand that he was going to move date the control of the departments and
any amendment. He merely called atten- the obligations of different states in federal •
tion to this language. My hon, and learned matters pass to the commonwealth. The
name.
228
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
1
land and buildings vest in the common- put the amendment suggested by the Legis-
wealth at that date, and provision has to lative Council and Assembly of Tasmania
be made for the election of senators, and
first :
probably some provision will have to be Omit “Unless it is otherwise expressed or im-
made in the different states for the election plied,” lines 1 and 2, insert “ the provisions of,"
and insert after "act,” line 2,“ relating to the
of representatives. It appears to me that
constitution of the commonwealth."
we ought to be very careful that sufficient
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : These amend-
time is allowed for all that to be done be-
fore the date fixed in the proclamation is
ments are of a drafting character, and are
not important!
arranged. I would suggest that six months
is rather a short time for all that to be
The CHAIRMAN : I understood it was
done in. A number of these matters have agreed that all the amendments suggested
to be arranged between the federal autho- by all the parliaments should be put be-
rity and the different states, and the neces-
fore the Committee whether important or
sary legislation cannot always be brought unimportant. I am under an obligation
on simultaneously in all the states. I would to put them before the Committee. The
suggest that the word "eight” should be suggestion of the legislature of Tasmania
substituted for the word “six.” It is only
is to omit certain words, as stated, and to
a maximum limit, and the date fixed might insert others. It has been suggested by
be much earlier. It would be a very
seri-
the Legislative Council and Legislative
ous thing to limit the time in such a way Assembly of New South Wales to omit,
as to make it impossible for the work neces-
in addition, the words “in this act." I
sary to be done to be carried out.
shall divide the amendment into two, and
submit that of the Tasmanian legislature
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Take
first. If that is carried, I shall put the
a year!
question, "That the words this act stand
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Perhaps part of the clause.” That will enable every
it will be safer to take a year. I move :
member of the Committee to give a vote
That the words "six months,” line 5, be
for either of the amendments.
omitted with the view to the insertion in their
place of the words " one year.”
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [115] : Be-
Amendment agreed to.
fore that amendment is put I desire to call
attention to a matter of machinery-it is
Amendment suggested by the Legisla-
tive Council of New South Wales to omit
by no means a matter of drafting-affect-
"Federal," line 10, negatived.
ing the mode in which the commonwealth
is to be brought into existence. With
Amendment (by Mr. Symon) negatived. regard to the question of drafting I desire
That the words “the commonwealth of,” line
to say, as I said in Adelaide, that I have
ll, be omitted.
always found a word in the ear of the
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Drafting Committee is ample to insure
Clause 4. Unless it is otherwise expressed or that they will listen to any suggestions
implied, this act shall commence and have effect
which may be made. I think that if any
on and from the day so appointed in the Queen's
member desires any alteration in drafting,
proclamation ; and the name “The Common-
wealth of Australia "The Commonwealth"
the best thing to do is to speak to a mem-
shall be taken to mean the Commonwealth of ber of the Drafting Committee about it.
Australia as constituted under this act.
There is a difficulty in connection with the
The CHAIRMAN: There are severalamend- machinery of the clause about which I do
ments suggested to this clause, and I will not see my way clear. The act is to come
or
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealthi of
229
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
into force on the day appointed by the a time, without advisers, but Chapter II,
proclamation. The first step, when the act relating to the executive, deals with this
is in force, is to appoint a governor-general matter. The last paragraph of clause 63
who is to issue writs for the election of states :
members of the lower house. There can After the first general election no minister of
be no parliament until the writ is issued,
state shall hold office for a longer period than thrée
calendar months unless he shall be or become a
and there can be no ministry until there
member of one of the houses of the parliament.
is a parliament. The position is this: That
It is clearly to be gathered from this that
you cannot have your ministry to advise
there will have to be, before the first gene-
the governor-general until there is a par-
liament, and you cannot have a parliament ral election, ministers of state who will
until there is a governor-general. That
be responsible ministers. It is quite ob-
means that the governor-general is to act
vious that the governor-general will not
set to work upon any important execu-
on his own responsibility, and is to have
tive act without sending for some person
no recognised official advisers in bringing
into play the provisions of the act. What
to form a ministry. That gentleman will
I want to understand is what provision have to be the adviser of the governor-
has been made for the purpose of giving general
, and the Ministry will take the steps
for the holding of the first general elec-
the governor-general advice in regard to the
tion, and for taking over the control of the
question of appointing the times for hold-
ing the first and every session of parlia- departments which, under the constitution,
are to be taken over at once. Upon the con-
ment, and of giving him advice as to what
returning officers are to be appointed. Of
trol of these departments being assumed,
revenue will become available for the fede-
course, the returning officer will make his
returns to the governor-general; but who
ral treasury. Therefore, all the acts, apart
is to be entrusted with the duty of an-
from legislation, which are necessary before
the election of the first parliament, will
nouncing the returns of the election?
There will, of course, be no funds in the
be done with the necessary provisions and
sinews of war.
commonwealth at that stage ; but I ap-
prehend that the governor-general will act
Mr. HIGGINS : The governor-general is
in the hope of being recouped any expenses
to appoint his own officers !
afterwards to which he may be put. My
The Hon. E. BARTON: He must send
difficulty is this : is the governor-general for his first ministry. There is no one to
in the issue of the writs to returning advise him whom he must send for; there-
officers under clause 41, to act on his own fore he must use his own discretion. For
responsibility, and is he, in appointing a this time he will have unassisted discre-
time for the holding of the first session of tion. If his succeeding advisers tender
parliament, to act also upon his own initi- him any advice as to the appointment of
ative and responsibility? I think hon. their successors when they go out, he can
members will see that this is not a ques- act upon it. As it is, he has sometimes
tion of drafting; but one of practical to act without advice, and he will have
machinery
to take that by no means uncommon step
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South in the first instance by sending for some
Wales) (11.8]: I think the objection of gentleman to form a ministry. With re-
my hon. friend is met in this way. Of ference to the amendment put from the
course, it is true that there may be a pos- Chair, I should advise the Committee to
sibility of the governor-general being, for accept it-I refer to the amendment by
230
Australia. Bill..
Conmonwealtłu of
[9: SCPT., 1897.]
1
the Legislative Council' and the Legisla- stitution" of the commonwealth-it seems
tive Assembly of New South Wales. The to me that we shall be almost, if not alto-
same amendment has been made by the gether, in the same difficulty as we are at
Legislative Council and Legislative Assem- present.
bly of Tasmania, and it has been put from The Hon. R. E. O'Connor: You may
the Chair in the form adopted by the Tas- get over the difficulty by heading the first
manian legislature. The intention of it is chapter " introductory”!
this: As things stand now, the act would
The Hon. E. BARTON : Oralter the other
not have force, possibly, until the day suggested amendment so as to make it read
appointed by the proclamation. That is
"the constitution of the commonwealth
really the day on which the constitution
shall commence and have effect from so
should have force. The act has force as
and so"!
an Imperial act immediately it receives
Amendment agreed to.
the royal assent.
Suggested amendment (omitting "unless Amendment (suggested by the Legisla-
it is otherwise expressed or implied") tive Council and Assembly of Tasmania:-
agreed to.
Insert after the word "implied," line 2,
Amendment (suggested by the Legisla: "The provisions of this aet relating to
tive Council and Legislative Assembly of the constitution of the commonwealth”)
New South Wales, omit "this act,” line 2) proposed.
proposed.
Amendment (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
That the suggested amendment be amended
[11:12] : I should like to hear what the
by omitting the words “The provisions of this
leader of the Convention has to say about act relating to."
this. The words suggested for insertion- Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
s relating to the constitution of the com-
Amendinent suggested by the Legislative Council
monwealth”_seem rather wide. If the
and Assembly of Tasmania :
provisions of this act "relating to the con-
To add to the clause : “But the parliaments
stitution of the commonwealth
are to
of the several colonies may at any time after the
come into operation on the day appointed passing of this act make any such laws, to come
in the proclamation, can it be said that the into operation on the day so appointed, as they
preceding provisions of the act are not
might have made if the constitution had been
established at the passing of this act.”
“relating to the constitution of the com-
monwealth," and do not suggest the same
The Hon. E. BARTON: I should like to
difficulty as we are in at present? Because have some explanation of this amendment,
clause 3--the clause which gives power to
and, perhaps, some hon. member represent-
her Majesty to issue the proclamation—is.' ing Tasmania will explain it !
certainly, in one sense at all events, a. The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
clause "relating to the constitution of the [11:15]: I supposed that the leader of the
commonwealth.” “Relating” is a large Convention had made himself acquainted
expression. The Canadian act is very dis- with the purpose of this amendment. I
tinct. If my memory, serves me rightly, it can only give it as I read it in Hansard.
says, “unless otherwise expressed or im- The amendment was proposed by the At-
plied by the subsequent provisions of this torney-General of Tasmania, and was evi-
act.'
". But if you insert the words sug- dently made on the suggestion of Sir
gested by the Tasmanian and New South Samuel Griffith for the purpose of giving
Wales Parliaments relating to the con- the Convention an opportunity of consider-
t
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealthi
23:1
. of
Australico Bill.
[9 SPL., 1897.]
.
ing the suggestion which Sir Samuel work before the day named in the pro.
Griffith had made. The Attorney General clamation. as: that: upon which the consti-
said :
tution is to take effecti
In: that very clause Sir Samuel Griffith seemed: The Hon E. BARTON (New South
to imply that this bill was going to give the
Wales) (1.1.18): I take it that the mean-
parliaments of the states power to pass laws with
regarď to the constitution of the commonwealth.
ing of the: amaendment is that as the con-
Seetion 29 said: "until the parliament otherwise
stitution is to come into force at, a later
provides the electoral divisions of the several dates, and inasmuch as the power of the
states for the purpose of returning members of
states to legislate on these particular sub-
tlie house of representatives, and the number of
members to be chosen for each electoral dīvision;
jects is one which is only embodied in the
sliall be determined from time to time by the constitutional part of the act, so those
parliaments of the several states. Until.such divi-
powers of the state only come into force
sion each state shall be one electorate." At the
at that time. The result would be, there-
present time he was not prepared to accept that
view; but possibly after further consideration
fore; it is suggested, that unless a provision
he might agree with Sir Samuel. There was: of this kind is made in the interim that
power now under clause 29 for dividing into. as would pass before the proclamation took
many electorates as they liked ; but if they did
effects, a. state would not be able to pass
not so divide, each state was the electorate.
Queensland was not represented in the
such legislation: as was necessary to pro-
Convention, and was not likely to be, and that vide for the representation of the state:
being so, it would be a graceful act on the part I think there is sometliing in that sugges-
of the Tasmanian House of Assembly, or any
tion. I do not see what harm the sug-
other house of parliament, to enable Sir Samuel
Griffith’s suggestions to be laid before the Con-
gested amendment could do, and I think
vention, even though Sir Samuel was not a it may, do good. The argument is that
delegate.
the power, although given in the consti-
That seemed to be the reason why the tution, will not be an effective power until
Attorney-General of Tasmania suggested the constitution itself takes effect, and you
this amendment--in order that Sir Sanauel want to fill up the gap.
Griffith's views might have some consider- Amendment agreed to ; clause, as
ation at the Convention..
amended, agreed to.
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania) Clause 5: The term “ the states" shall be taken
[11:17]: I desire to add, to what has fallen to mean:such of the colonies of New South Wales,
from my hon, colleague in the representa- New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria
,
and Western Australia, and the province of South
tion: of Tasmania, that in clause 9. the two
Australia, as for the time-being form part of the
houses of parliament of Tasmania have sugo commonwealth, and such colonies or states as
gested that the senate should be composed may hereafter be admitted into or established
of six senators for each state, to be chosen
by the commonwealth, and each of such parts of
the commonwealth shall be hereafter designated
by the people of the state « in such manner
as the parliament of each' state shall deter-
Amendment suggested by Legislative Council of
mine." If that suggestion is to be carried New South Wales :
out, it will be necessary for the various par- Add: at end of clause: “Original states shall be
Haments to pass enactments and make their taken to mean such states as form part of the
own provisions for electing the first senate.
commonwealth at the date of its establishment.
New states shall be taken to mean such states as
It is with that view that this amendment
may thereafter be admitted into or constituted
has been suggested. Of course a parlia- by the commonwealth.”
ment would have no power to legislate in: The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
this direction unless there was some pro- Wales:) [11:21]: This, amendment has been
vision of this sort under which it could suggested for the purpose of distinguishing
"state."
!
232
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
now.
in the interpretation of subsequent clauses both those that come in originally, and
between the original states of the common- those which join afterwards. I am there-
wealth and those which join it afterwards. fore unable to see why it should be neces-
Any question of the different treatment of sary to discriminate in this way between
original and new states will arise upon new states and original states.
clause 114, so that it need not trouble us The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
.
The amendment is one which I Wales) (11.24]: I am sorry that I did not
myself suggested in the Legislative Council. make my explanation as full as I should
An Hon. MEMBER: What is the object have made it. I omitted to refer to the
of it?
bearing of the amendment upon clause 9.
The Hon. E. BARTON: To enable a It has been pointed out that there is
distinction to be made in the subsequent an apparent conflict between clause 114
parts of the bill between the original states and clause 9 in this way: that whereas
of the union and states which join after- under clause 114 power is given to the
wards. If the Convention decides to ad- commonwealth parliament to make terms
here to the work done in Adelaide, that with a state wishing to join the union,
the ordinary provisions of the constitution clause 9 appears to be constructed in
shall apply to the states originally federat- favour of equal representation in all cases.
ing, and that new states are to be admitted I have in my hand an amendment which I
upon such terms as may be agreed upon propose to move in clause 9, in order that
between them and the commonwealth, the this inconsistency may be removed, and
amendment will enable a distinction to be then clauses 9 and 114 will make the
drawn between the two classes of states. necessity for the amendment now before
An HON. MEMBER: What about the the Committee plain.
word - dominion" ?
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
The CHAIRMAN : I take it that it is the Australia) (11.25]: I think we all agree
desire of the Convention that the word that the federation would be incomplete
commonwealth,” and not the word “do- unless it embraced the whole of Australia;
minion,” shall be used to describe the that without Queensland the federation
union, and therefore I intend to alter any would be mained. Do we not, therefore,
amendment in which the word “dominion” desire to give every inducement to Queens-
land to join us? But if Queensland is for
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (11.23]: all time to be designated a new state, that
I am sorry to say that I am quite unable is, an inferior state, in name at least, will
to follow the explanation of the hon. mem- not that be a bar rather than an induce-
ber, Mr. Barton, as to the necessity for in- ment to her joining?
troducing this discriminating definition An Hon. MEMBER : If she comes in now
into clause 5. I have just looked at the: she will get better terms !
provisions of clause 114, which define the The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Suppose
powers of the federal parliament to admit she cannot come in just at once; but wants
new states into the union from time to to come in as soon afterwards as possible ?
time. After the admission of a fresh ter- If the amendment is carried, and she comes
ritory, or a non-concurring state into the in a month after the federation is formed,
union, there would be no reason why it she will, for all time, be placed in the
should continue to be described as a new category of new states, and will, therefore,
state in contradistinction to an original be on an inferior footing in regard to the
state. They will be all states of the union, original states.
occurs.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
233
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The term
new
Each part of the commonwealth, once it is
state" will never have to be used after the admitted into the commonwealth, becomes
admission of a state !
a state. It will not have the prefix "origi-
The Hon. Dr. COOKBURN: But it nal” or the prefix "new.” The term
will stand in the constitution for all time. original state” and the term "new state"
For all time Queensland can be referred is each a term requiring interpretation.
to as a new state.
The words "original” or “new” can form
The Hon. E. BARTON : So she is now. no part of the designation of a state once
We are all new states !
it becomes part of the commonwealth.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I think The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
the amendment is a mistake.
(Western Australia) (11.28]: I have not
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Suppose been convinced by the explanation of the
Queensland divided into three before she hon. member, Mr. Barton. I agree with
enters the federation ?
the hon, member, Dr. Cockburn, that the
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Well, I proposed addition is altogether unneces-
fear that if we make the distinction in
sary. The plan adopted in the bill is that
name, we shall be removing one of the in- the colonies of Australia, as they exist at
ducements to Queensland to join the feder- the present time, may come into the feder-
ation. Queensland should be admitted
ation now or at any time hereafter. To
upon an equal footing in substance and in
say to a colony which by force of circum-
name with the other states.
stances is unable to come in at the present
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) time, “If you do not come in now, the
[11.27]: I think that the hon. member,
terms upon which you shall enter shall be
Dr. Cockburn, is labouring under a mis-
the subject of future consideration," seems
apprehension. The only object of the pro- to me to be more likely to keep that colony
posed amendment is to define the terms
from federating than to attract it into the
used in the bill. The position very pro- federation. Ido not suppose anyone desires
perly taken in Adelaide was that the colo-
to visit any penalty upon Queensland for
nies that joined the union at the begin- not joining us. The public men of Queens-
ning, and shared all the dangers and diffi-
land, and, perhaps, the people of Queens-
culties of federation from the outset, should
land, are probably just as anxious to be
be entitled as a right to equality of con-
federated as we are; but, through the
sideration, and that other states which did
force of circumstances which cannot al-
not come in then should run the risk of
being admitted on such terms as the com-
ways be controlled, they have not been
monwealth might thereafter think right able, up to the present time, to come into
the Convention. To inflict penalties upon
and fit. The expression " new states," in
clause 114, requires some definition, and
states now existing, should they subse-
it is thought right to give it that necessary
quently desire to join the federation, seems
definition, and in contradistinction to de-
to me to be ungenerous.
fine the term " original states.” If the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Read clause
hon. member, Dr. Cockburn, will read
114?
clause 5, he will see that:
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
The terin " the states " shall be taken to I know all about clause 114. The new
mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, states referred to in this bill are those
New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria,
that are to be formed out of existing states.
and Western Australia, and the province of South
Australia, as for the time-being form part of the
The states mentioned in the bill are the ex-
commonwealth.
isting colonies of Australia and Tasmania,
S
234
Australia Bill.
Conumonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.
and the new states are those which here- and I am sure there will be a general
after may be formed by a subdivision of desire to avoid the introduction of any
any colony. Those are the new states unnecessary distinction of the kind.
I
referred to in the Commonwealth Bill of should like also to point out to the leader
1891. I can see no object in the amend- of the Convention that if he intends to
ment of Mr. Barton, unless it be to erect press the amendment, it would be better
some barrier against a state, which by to use the word, “established” by the
force of circumstances may not be able to commonwealth, instead of “constituted,"
join immediately, from hereafter becoming because that word is used in the earlier
part of the commonwealth. That is not
part of the clause.
the spirit in which we should deal with The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
this matter. We should, on the other Wales) [11:34]: It will be more satisfac-
hand, act generously, if we are desirous of
tory to hon. members if I indicate the
forming a real federation. A real feder-
amendment I intend to move in clause 9.
ation of Australia cannot be complete Then it will be apparent that, if that
unless all the colonies of Australia form
amendment is one that commends itself to
part of it.
If that is our desire, we can- hon. members, it will be necessary to make
not act too generously with those colonies the slight amendment I propose in clause
who by force of circumstances may be un- 5. I propose to alter clause 9, so that it
able to join at the beginning.
will have the same effect, except that it
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON will not conflict with the power given in
(South Australia) [11:32]: I would suggest clause 114 to regulate the admission of
to the leader of the Convention that the new states. It will read in this way, down
proposed addition is not required, and to the last paragraph :
may well be omitted, and for this reason :
The senate shall be composed of senators for
I understand that where an interpretation each state, directly chosen by the people of the
of a term is useful you are going to use
state as one electorate, and each senator shall
that term. It avoids setting it out at
have one vote. Until the parliament otherwise
provides, there shall be six senators for each
length afterwards. But what is proposed
original state. The parliament may, froin time
is this : to give an interpretation to the to time, increase or diminish the number of sen-
term "original state.” Now where in the ators for each original state, but so that equal
whole bill do we find the term "original
representation of the several original states shall
be maintained (and that no original state shall
state" ?
have less than six senators). The senators shall
Mr. SYMON : Or "new state" either! be chosen for a term of six years, and the names
The Hon. E. BARTON: The amendment
of the senators chosen by each state shall be cer-
I intend to move in clause 9 will make the
tified by the governor to the governor-general.
use of the term "original state” necessary! The object of that amendment is to make
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I it quite clear that the principle of equal
am inclined to think it will be emphasis- representation shall be conserved to the
ing a distinction which is altogether un- states which originally join, and that the
necessary. We have already, within the parliament may have the power, by way of
four corners of the bill, declared what are arrangement or statute, of dealing with the
to be new states, and there is no necessity terms on which any new state is to be ad-
for the introduction of the amendment mitted. As a matter of drafting, there-
now proposed for the purpose of further fore, the amendment I have now proposed
emphasising the distinction. Without this in clause 5 became necessary in order that
amendment the bill will be perfectly clear, the term "original states," used so often
[The Right IIon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
235
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
in clause 9, might be understood at once, original states, I shall have to use a long
and that clause 9, when amended, taken form of words in various places through-
together with clause 114, might be free of out clause 9 that would make the drafting
any conflict with that clause. As things cumbrous. The object is not to draw an
stand now, there is a conflict between invidious distinction between states, but
clause 9 and clause 114, and it was the ex- to allow the bill to be more readily under-
pressed and determined intention, as I stood.
understand, of the Convention in Adelaide The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
to keep its hands upon the power of regu-
South Wales) [11:41]: I think the hon.
lating the representation of new states. member, Mr. Barton, is going slightly
Let me divest the minds of my hon. friends away from the subject of clause 5, which
of any suspicion that I would for a moment is simply a definition clause. Even if new
attempt to place any slur upon Queensland
territories are admitted as states into the
or to invest Queensland with a designation commonwealth, with a less representation
which mightin any way diminish its dignity,
in the senate than have the other states,
That is not the purpose of this amendment;
it is still necessary that they should come
it is a pure matter of drafting. If Queens- under the general definition of "states
land does not come into the federation throughout the whole of the bill. The
before the constitution is established, but
definition of " state” would be necessary
decides to do so at a later date, she may or
even for a state which, in the senate, does
may not then be divided into two or three not return as many members as do the
states. If she consist of three states at
other states.
that date, and if we should decide to retain
An Hon. MEMBER:
the principle of equal representation in the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That
constitution, then Queensland would come
being the case, why should we attempt to
into the senate with eighteen senators legislate for that particular matter under
against six for each of the other states.
the general definition clause at the begin-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
ning of the bill? It often happens that
where an interpretation is only necessary
Not according to clause 114!
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the right hon.
for a limited purpose, it is put into the
member will only bear with me for a
forefront of the act, and is limited to the
moment he will see that we are both driving
part of the act where the definition is
at the same point. If Queensland is divided
necessary. I confess I lay great stress
before she comes into the federation, the
upon the observations of the right hon.
three states would then come in, unless
member, Sir John Forrest. We surely do
you made a provision such as is made in
not mean to ask Queensland to come into
this federation as a new state.
It is cer-
clause 114, with eighteen senators. I
admit that clause 114 makes provision for
tainly a mere matter of words; but those
that difficulty. But clause 114 conflicts
words sometimes carry great weight, and,
with clause 9 as it stands now, and though
inasmuch as the definition clause does not
refer to three states of Queensland, but to
a court might construe it according to the
intention of the act, still it is well that only one, it is impossible that the question
there should not be that apparent conflict.
about the division of Queensland into three
states can affect the matter. This clause
Now, the conflict is removed by the amend-
ment which I intend to propose in clause 9.
simply provides that
the term “ the states" shall be taken to mean
If I carry that amendment in clause 9,
such of the colonies of New South Wales, New
then, unless I have this amendment defining Zealand, Queensland
236
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
19 Sept., 1897.1
ens-
It does not refer to the division of Queer The case I am putting is the case of Queens-
land into three states--
land seeking to be admitted after the union
Tasmania, Victoria, and Western Australia, and has been formed. We should certainly
the province of South Australia, as for the
then be putting upon Queensland for all
time-being form part of the commonwealth, and
such colonies or states as may hereafter be
time the brand of a new state, because that
admitted into or established by the common- definition means that any state which
wealth.
comes in after the union is formed shall
That definition will be necessary for the
be taken to be a new state." Now, why
new as well as for the old states. It is a should we press in a definition clause a
general definition.
little point of this kind which may irritate
An Hon. MEMBER:
an adjoining colony? What is the diffi-
culty about leaving the clause as it is? It
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The
is this : that it is quite possible that this
stipulation that in the case of certain new
bill, as finally settled, will limit the num-
states there shall be certain variations is a
ber of senators in some particular cases--
thing for express legislation and not for a
certainly not the case of Queensland if she
definition clause of this kind, and I would
comes in as she is. The term of a limited
strongly counsel my friend, Mr. Barton,
number of senators as distinguished from
not to raise the difficulty in this clause.
the existing colonies cannot mean Queens-
We must have regard to the fact that
whatever may have been the conduct of land, it must mean some other territory or
the Government of Queensland the people part of an existing state coming from where
I do not know.
of Queensland are absolutely blameless.
An Hon. MEMBER : Perhaps Fiji !
They are at present impotent to do any.
thing they may wish to do. For aught The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Fiji or
we know the people of Queensland may New Guinea, or, perhaps, some subdivi-
be absolutely desirous of joining a federa- sion of an existing colony. It cannot
tion, but they are paralysed by the action affect a colony which remains as it is with-
of the Government and Parliament of out subdivision. I strongly advise that
Queensland. Let us suppose for a moment
this clause should not be cumbered by a
that the people of Queensland, having a
provision which might be brought more
better means of expressing their opinion immediately to the point of application in
than they at present have, wish imme- another part of the bill.
diately to join this union. Is it necessary The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
to brand Queensland for all time to come (South Australia) (11:47]: I am obliged
as being a new state į
to my hon. friend, Mr. Barton, for his ex-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That would not planation, which is sufficient to induce the
be the case. Directly she was admitted withdrawal of my opposition to the amend-
she would be a state !
ment he proposes. I think we ought all
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Clearly
to do what we can to support the leader of
a state which is admitted after the passing
the Convention.
of this act becomes a new state, or what The Right Hon. G. H. REID : This is
do these words mean :
not the drafting of the leader of the Con-
Original states" shall be taken to mean such vention. It is a suggestion from a branch
states as form part of the dominion at the date of the legislature !
of its establishment. s New states" shall be
taken to mean such states as may thereafter be
The Hon. E. BARTON: The amendment
admitted into or constituted by the dominion. was made on my motion !
5.
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
237
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: So and must be so regarded. When it is once
far as I have been able to gather it appears admitted the distinction disappears, the
to meet with the concurrence of the mem- whole of the states being treated alike.
bers of the Drafting Committee, and under Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [11:50]: I
these circumstances I shall vote for it. think we are very much in the position of
The objection I took was that we did not drawing up a deed of partnership for
require a definition of original states, be- states which it is contemplated will come
cause the term was not employed in the in at the inception of the commonwealth.
constitution ; but, as the hon. member, Unless we have an amendment such as is
Mr. Barton, has pointed out that he in- suggested we shall bind the original part-
tends to introduce the term to emphasise ners to take in new partners at any time
the distinction, which, no doubt, we intend without having fixed the terms of the
to make as regards the states which join partnership.
at the outset and those which afterwards The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It does
come in in the terms of this bill, I with- not propose to do anything; it is only a
draw my opposition.
definition !
Mr. TRENWITH: It is a defini-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : We have
already affirmed that principle in clause
tion having reference to another clause.
114 !
Seeing that certain colonies are expected
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
to enter into partnership on conditions
After the explanation of the leader of the
that they understand, we have a right to
Convention, I shall be happy to vote for
leave them as free as possible when they
the amendment. It is suggested that we
choose to extend that partnership by taking
shall be branding new states for all time
in new partners.
as new states; but we do not do anything
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Is
that the federal spirit?
of the sort. We merely make that dis-
Mr. TRENWITH: It is the federal
tinction at the time of the bargain. When
the states have been admitted they are
spirit nost assuredly. Anyone would ob-
states, and will come within the mean-
ject strongly to take in new partners on
ing of the first part of the clause, which
terms which he had no hand in framing.
declares that the term
Whoever chooses to come in twenty or one
hundred years hence under the Common-
"the states " shall be taken to mean such of the
wealth Bill as it leaves our hands should
colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand,
Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, and Western
surely be bound to come in under terms
Australia, and the province of South Australia,
agreed upon by the original partners.
as for the time being, form part of the common-
An Hon. MEMBER :
wealth, and such colonies or states as may here- Mr. TRENWITH: I would be just as
after be admitted into or established by the
reluctant to compel colonies to come in
commonwealth,
under conditions of which they disapprove
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : It
as I would be to compel a number of other
cannot be one of those !
colonies to admit new partners without
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : giving them any choice as to terms,
It will, undoubtedly, when it is admitted. Mr. Higgins (Victoria) (11.52] : I rise
It will be included in the general definition to order. I think we are discussing the
of states ; but at the period of bargaining merits of clause 114, whereas the only
it is not one of the original parts of the question before us is the interpretation
federation, but is regarded as a new state, clause. We shall have an opportunity of
238 Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
discussing the important question raised Mr. TRENWITH [11:57]: Having
by the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest in regard to the ruling of the Chairman, I
clause 114. This is not the time to dis- shall not pursue my argument further than
cuss whether the federal parliament is to to say that it is well to remember that this
have power to arrange the terms for the definition will cover the possibilities of the
admission of new states.
future. I can see no objection to the term
The CHAIRMAN : I think the point raised which is proposed. I think it will have
by the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, must be some historic value, and will enable people
sustained. I did not stop the discussion, to discover at a glance the states that took
because it was impossible to separate the part in the federation at its inception and
necessity for the interpretation clause the states that subsequently joined the
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [11:54]: federation. There will be no stigma at-
Will you, sir, allow me to make a few tached to the states which did not take
remarks before you give a final decision part in the commonwealth at the first.
on the point? The whole question of clause The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is
114 is involved in this one. It is not rather strange that the United States have
simply an interpretation
managed to do without such a definition
The CHAIRMAN: Clause 114 is absolutely although they have admitted so many new
necessary to give any effect to the inter- states !
pretation. It is the operative clause. Mr. TRENWITH : That may be the
Mr. SYMON : Would you allow me to case;. but if it appears to us that it would
point out that the amendment suggested be better to use such a definition it is no
by the Legislative Council of New South reason that we should not do so simply
Wales which we are now discussing, is because the United States have not done
unnecessary if, in clause 114, we allow Western Australia came into this
the principle of equal representation in the Convention somewhat later than the others,
senate to apply to the new, as well as to but they do not occupy any less dignified
the old, states ?
a position in this Convention on that
The CHAIRMAN :
account.
Mr. SYMON : I am perfectly aware that The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
we cannot decide now as to clause 114 ; Wales) [11:59]: I intend to ask leave to
but the better way would be to postpone withdraw my amendment in order to
this amendment until clause 114 is dealt enable an hon. member to more a prior
with. As to the interpretation, I am at amendment. I would first say that if
one with the Premier of New South Wales.
clause 5 is the right place to define the
The CHAIRMAN : The hon, member can- term "The states" it is evidently the right
not discuss the main question in discussing place to define "original states." I for one
the point of order.
will not be a party to scattering interpre-
Mr. SYMON : I desire to facilitate the pro- tations all over the act. On the other hand,
ceedings, and I think that would be done inasmuch as the term “new states” might
if the hon. member would postpone this be considered by some hypercriticism out
amendment until we deal with clause 114 ! of doors as a slur on Queensland, it would,
The CHAIRMAN : On the point of order, perhaps, be better not to use that term, al-
I declare that the definition clause has no though I do not think such an inference
effect at all until the subsequent clause could be drawn by any reasonable inter-
affected by it is dealt with. It is not now pretation. I withdraw the amendment now
in order to discuss the main question, to allow of a prior amendment, and I intend
'SO.
3
[Mr. Trenwith.
Cammonwealth of
239
19 SEPT:, 1897.1
Avustralia. Bill.
to move my amendment later on only as existing colonies and establishing new
a definition of the original states. Instead states. If that amendment had been
of saying that "original states" shall mean carried we would have had to establish
so and so—which might be taken excep- Queensland as a new state instead of
tionto—I will bring it into conformity with admitting it as an existing colony:
the rest of the amendment by saying that Amendment postponed ; clause post-
" the term original states.” shall be taken
poned.
to mean so and so, and leave out the last
Clause 6 (Repeal of 48 and 49 Victoria,
part of the amendment so that the suscep- Chapter 60) agreed to.
tibility of no one in Queensland, or other
places, may be offended by the use of the Clause 7. The constitution established by
this act, and all laws made by the parliament
term. The definition of “original states"
of the commonwealth in pursuance of the
will then suit my purpose. I ask leave to powers conferred by the constitution, and all
withdraw the amendment so as to admit of treaties made by the commonwealth, shall, 5
the insertion of a prior amendment.
according to their tenour, be binding on the
courts, judges, and people, of every state,
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
and of every part of the commonwealth, any.
(Western Australia)[12.1] was understood
thing in the laws of any state to the contrary
to ask the hon. and learned member, Mr. notwithstanding; and the laws and treaties 10
Barton, whether it would be better to leave
of the commonwealth shall be in force on
board of all British ships whose last port of
this matter until a decision was arrived at
clearance or whose port of destination is in
in regard to the amendment he proposed the commonwealth.
to move in clause 9, and then, if that altera- Amenciment suggested by the Legislative Council
tion were made, on recommittal we might of New South Wales :
make the necessary alteration in clause 5. Omit and all treaties made by the com-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Perhaps it will
monwealth,” lines 4 and 5.
be better to postpone the whole of this
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
clause !
Wales) [12:4] : I think it is expected by
Mr. SOLOMON(South Australia)(12.2]: the Legislative Council of New South
Amisunderstanding mayarise in the future
Wales that I should explain what the
as to the position of the Northern Territory, meaning of this amendment is. In the first
and its relation to South Australia, ît being place, the desire of that body is that, inas-
under its charter provisionally annexed to
much as the treaty-making power will be
South Australia by the Queen-in-Council. in the Imperial Government, we should
I wish to indicate that in the consideration omit any reference to the making of treaties
of this clause I will move to insert after by the commonwealth ; in other words,
the words "South Australia" the words while they concede that we should make
“including the Northern Territory of South certain trade arrangements, which would
Australia,” so that there can be no mis-
have force enough if ratified by the Imperial
understanding as to that territory forming Government, the sole treaty-making power
part of the province of South Australia.
is in the Crown of the United Kingdom.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
Mr. HIGGINS : Clause 52 refers to
South Wales) [12:3]: I am glad that my treaties!
hon, and learned friend, Mr. Barton, is The Hon. E. BARTON : And, in con-
taking the course he is taking, because we formity with the amendment they suggest
will avoid the difficulty which I referrel in this clause, they desire that the words
to; for clearly under clause 114 as it stands " and treaties” should disappear from
there is a distinction between admitting clause 52. There is a good deal of force
240 Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bili.
in the contention, I think. I do not think The Hon. E. BARTON: I suppose
the constitution will be in any way mini- that will be one of the class of vessels
mised or weakened by the omission of the which will be excluded ?
words. As regards the remainder of their
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
amendments, they propose to confine the
South Wales) [12:5]: If my hon. and
clause to laws, and not to treaties, and to
learned friend, Mr. Barton, does not move
make its latter part read in this way : formally this amendment, I will move it.
And the laws of the commonwealth shall be in
The Hon. E. BARTON : The amendment
force on board of all British ships, excepting her
Majesty's ships and vessels of war, whose first has been proposed.
port of clearance and whose port of destination
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I
are in the commonwealth.
strongly support the amendment for the
The gentleman who moved that amend-
reasons which my hon. and learned friend
ment was not a member of the Convention.
has hinted at. This is an expression
He contended that there might be an em-
which would be more in place in the
barrassment to ships' captains with regard
to conflict of laws in their application out-
United States Constitution, where treaties
side the territorial limits, and that it was
are dealt with by the President and the
better to confine the application of com-
senate, than in the constitution of a colony
monwealth laws not merely to coasting
within the empire. The treaties made by
her Majesty are not binding as laws on
vessels, but to ships bound on intercolonial
the people of the United Kingdom, and
journeys—that is, to ships starting a
there is no penalty for disobeying them.
voyage from a port in the commonwealth.
Legislation is sometimes passed to give
In other words, he seemed to fear the ap-
effect to treaties, but the treaties them-
plication of the Imperial shipping laws,
and also the commonwealth shipping laws,
selves are not laws, and indeed nations
sometimes find them inconvenient, as they
or, until the commonwealth legislated on
the subject, the laws within the territorial neglect them very seriously without involv-
limits of the various provinces, to ships ing any important legal consequences. The
such as the mail steamers passing on their expression, I think, ought to be omitted.
I will deal with the other suggested amend-
journey from port to Port here. He desired
ments when the time comes.
to remove the conflict which he thought
might thus arise by this amendment. I
Amendment agreed to.
think in his desire to substitute the word
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
sand” for the word “ or” he was carrying of South Australia :
out what seems to be the view of a great Omit "and " where it first occurs in line 10;
many of us, and what some of the other insert "in addition to the laws of Great Britain.'
legislatures have carried out. To that ex- The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
tent I take it this series of amendments South Wales) [12.8]: Before that sugges-
will be acceptable to the Convention, and tion is considered, I should like to give
I think perhaps the omission of the refer- effect to the suggestion which the hon. and
ence to treaties might be well assented to learned member, Mr. Barton, referred to.
by us; but as to the rest of course it is a I move :
matter of judgment as to the application
That the clause be amended by the omission
of these laws, and I admit the difficulty of of all the words after the word “notwithstand-
the question.
ing."
Mr. HIGGINS : What is the first port of The Hon. E. BARTON: That will be going
clearance in the case of ocean tramps ? too far, perhaps !
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
241
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I anı The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
going to give the reasons which I think sorry I should excite so much impetuosity.
make it wise we should take this course. I do not care a pin about the Federal
There was a great deal of difficulty at the Council Act, because no one ever heard of
Convention in Adelaide, certainly in the it, and no one ever will hear of it. I am
Constitutional Committee, to understand referring to an act which has a much livelier
the reason why such wide words were in- signification-the Merchant Shipping Law
serted in the draft constitution. Under of Great Britain-which contains matters
the words " whose last port of clearance is dealing with all British ships, wherever
in the commonwealth," our laws would fol.. they are, subject to the right of her Ma-
low a vessel from here to England, because jesty's self-governing colonies, to pass a law
her last port of clearance would be Sydney with reference to shipping which comes ex-
to England. Or under the words "whose
Or under the words “whose clusively within their jurisdiction. Under
port of destination is in the common- that provision of the Imperial law we have
wealth," a vessel sailing from Hamburg to in our several colonies passed local naviga-
Sydney would be covered by our common- tion acts. We have one in this colony,
wealth laws, which would be a preposterous which refers to shipping over which we
pretension.
have jurisdiction. There will be no diffi-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: As to British culty in the commonwealth exercising
ships !
similar powers without the special power
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: As to of the constitution, because it is provided
British ships, we are in a still more seri- in clause 52 that this is a subject on which
ous difficulty, and I suggest the omission the commonwealth shall legislate; so that,
of these words, because otherwise we will without the words to which I have re-
get into infinitely more difficulty with the ferred, the commonwealth can legislate on
Imperial Parliament.
the regulation of navigation up to its
An Hon. MEMBER : They are the same jurisdiction.
words as those in the Federal Council Act!
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
The Right Hon. G.H. REID: Ithink not;
Within its territorial limits !
but whether they are or are not, that will
not affect the facts to which I am referring.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Exactly;
and we havenopower of legislating beyond.
There is a well-known Imperial statute
known as the Merchant Shipping Law.
An Hon. MEMBER: A similar bill to
The provisions of that act cover all British
this has been made an Imperial act_the
ships wherever they are, and we cannot,
Federal Council Act!
in the commonwealth, override Imperial The Right Hon. G. H. REID: May I
statutes.
tell hon. members that I do not speak idly
An HON. MEMBER: This will be an in the remarks I am making. I hope hon.
Imperial statute !
members will give me credit for making
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: My hon. these observations, knowing what I mean.
friend is a little previous in saying that. I tell the Committee that these words will
It never will be an Imperial statute with be a source of embarrassment in the con-
those words in it. They would certainly sideration of the bill, that they conflict
have to be expunged before it became an with the laws of the British Empire, and
Imperial statute.
seek to establish a jurisdiction which we
The Hon. H. DOBSON : What about the shall not get, a jurisdiction beyond our
Federal Council Act?
limits.
242
Australia Bull.
Commonwealth of
[9. SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : We have words and substance with the clause now
got it already in regard to beche-de-mer proposėd, I do not think any conflict can
fishing, for instance !
possibly arise, but some conflict may be
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do not prevented by following the lines which the
know whether beche-de-mer fishing comes Imperial Parliament not only suggested
within the limit of the general navigation but persisted in. The drafters of the Fed-
law. It may be so. I have nothing more eral Council Act, now in force, never drew
to say, except that I speak advisedly. any
clause like this-never hoped for any
Mr. CLARKE : Has the right hon. gentle- extension of their authority like this. It
man been talking with “ Joe?'?
was forced upon them by the liberality of
The Right Hon. G. Á. REID : My hon. the Board of Trade and the Imperial Par-
friend is entirely wrong; but I have taken liament, and we accepted it, as we naturally
advantage of my visit to the mother coun- would accept all good things. Now, it is
try to get all the information I can with proposed to say, that because we have a
reference to matters of this kind, and I certain power, and seek to preserve it-a
shall tell the Committee advisedly that power which the Imperial Parliament in-
difficulty may arise if these words are left sisted upon giving us—we should put an
in the clause.
obstacle in the way of the Imperial Parlia-
An Hon. MEMBER : Why not insert a ment passing the bill which we are con-
proviso to the effect that the latter portion sidering. I should imagine, if there is any
of the clause shall prevail where it does consistency in the Imperial Parliament,
not conflict with the English law ?
they would rather treat with respect our
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The observance of their legislation than com-
hon. gentleman must see that in matters plain that we were endeavouring to arro-
of shipping there is great jealousy as to gate to ourselves authority for which we
jurisdiction, and if laws are uncertain, the never asked, and which they insisted in
position of trade and commerce is put into bestowing upon us.
a most undesirable state. One of the The Hon. J. H. GORDON : There is
secrets of the success of the British mer- nothing in it!
cantile marine is the fact that it is governed Mr. SYMON : Does anybody defend the
by one code of laws all over the oceans of retention of these words?
the world, and that the different colonies
The Hon. S. TRASER :
cannot pass laws affecting British ships, The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If this
excepting within the limits of their juris- were a new matter, and I had to consider
diction. I warn the Convention against what I would ask the Imperial Parliament
anything of that kind.
to do, I do not think I should ask them to
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South do this; but if the Imperial Parliament
Australia) [12.17]: I do not quite agree insisted on giving me this, I should accept
with the right hon. gentleman in his re- it with all due thanks, and not complain.
fusal to ignore an Imperial statute which If there is any difficulty in the matter, the
exists at the present time. The right hon. Imperial Parliament can alter it.
gentleman not only ignores the Federal The Hon. J. H. GORDON: That would
Council Act, but he ignores the Imperial mean delay !
Parliament which constituted it. Seeing The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
that the Imperial Parliament, acting un- not think it would. It is not a cardinal
der the advice of the Board of Trade, in- alteration of the bill, and we can scarcely
serted a clause which is identical both in imagine that, when we send the bill to the
V
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
243
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Imperial Parliament they will necessarily The Hon. E. BARTON : And our clause
accept it without altering anything. I includes treaties which the Federal Council
think we might very well leave the words Act does not!
as they stand, seeing that they are not our The Hon. H., DOBSON: The section in
idea, but something insisted upon by the the Federal Council Act is as follows:
body to which we are now appealing.
All acts of the council, on being assented to
The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania) in manner hereinbefore provided, shall have the
[12:19]: When at Adelaide I pointed out
force of law iu all her Majesty's possessions in
Australasia in respect to which this act is in
the same objection, but not with equal
operation, or in the several colonies to which
force, as the Premier of New South Wales
they shall extend, as the case may be, and on
has pointed out. The leader of the Con- board all British ships, other than her Majesty's
vention, however, replied that identically ships of war, whose last port of clearance or port
of destination is in any such possession or colony.
the same clause was granted by the Im-
perial Parliament in connection with the
Those are the identical words in the
Federal Council Act. Sir John Downer
Federal Council Act to which the Impe-
has rightly reminded the Convention that
rial Parliament has agreed; and it appears
not only does this identical clause find a
to me that the clause in our own bill can
place in the Federal Council Act, but that be made absolutely correct and consistent
it was suggested by the Chamber of Com- if you insert in the bill a section similar
merce of Great Britain, and was agreed to
to that which is in the Federal Council
by the Imperial Parliament, and our right Act next but one after the section which
hon. friend, Mr. Reid, now points out that
I have just read, namely, the section which
he has been gaining information at home.
provides :
Mr. SYMON: Where is it shown that If in any case the provisions of any act of the
the Board of Trade suggests it?
council should be repugnant to or inconsistent
with the law of any colony affected thereby, the
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I have hcard
former shall prevail, and the latter shall, so far
that statement made two or three times, as such repugnancy or inconsistency extends,
and, therefore, I accept it as a fact. I do have no operation.
not know of my own knowledge that it is Then, it appears to me that the legal ob-
a fact; but I have heard it stated by so jection to this clause will at once pass
many eminent men, that I accept it as
away if you simply add a line saying that
such,
any laws which the federal parliament may
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What is the pass, and which are to be in force upon
statement ?
British ships, other than her Majesty's
Mr. SYMON: That the Board of Trade ships of war, shall not prevail against the
originally suggested the insertion of these Imperial law wherever they are incon-
words !
sistent with or repugnant to it. If you
The Hon. H. DOBSON : The Imperial put that provision in, the whole thing will
Parliament has passed the provision, and be plain. What reason is there why we
the right hon. the Prime Minister of this should hold on to this power to legislate
colony will find that this clause is identi- for British ships? I went to a concert
cal with it, except that it does not contain last night, and I understood from one of
the words "excepting her Majesty's ships the songs, which was admirably sung, that
and vessels of war," which, I think it ought Australia is to become “the queen of the
to contain, and I find that a subsequent southern world,” or something to that
amendment suggests that her Majesty's effect. If Australia is to become " the
ships of war should be excepted.
queen of the southern world," or a great
3.
244
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
59 SEPT., 1897.1
power in the southern seas, we shall be only within the 3-mile limit, and that any
establishing pearl and other fisheries, we intercolonial vessel leaving, say, Sydney,
shall have guano islands, and enormous in- and going to Melbourne, so long as she is
terests springing up in the South Pacific. within the 3-mile limit is under the laws
If the Imperial Parliament have gener- of the colony to wbich she belongs, or of.
ously given us authority to legislate for the particular colony in whose waters she
British ships which may affect our trade happens to be ; but directly she goes out-
-if the Imperial Parliament have given side that limit she gets into British terri-
that large power to a small and, what tory, and not only the shipping laws but
some hon. members might call, an impo- also the criminal laws of England, as dis-
tent body like the Federal Council-by tinct from any criminal law in any part
all means let us allow a body like the com- of Australia, are in force on board that
monwealth to retain the same power.
ship. I take it that the provision already
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New inserted will need some amendment which
South Wales) [12:23]: I do not see any will make it clear that it is not intended to
reason for retaining these words, although apply to a ship which leaves, say, Albany,
they have been allowed to pass in the as its last port of clearance, and is going
Federal Council Act. Perhaps they were to London or some port in the east, but is
suggested without a full appreciation of intended to apply to ships only so long as
their meaning, or the mood of the Imperial they are voyaging in the waters of the
Crown law officers may have changed.
commonwealth.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The Federal The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Not merely in
Council Act took an enlarged form on the the waters of the commonwealth, but also
advice of the Imperial officers. They may between different ports of the common-
have changed their mind since !
wealth !
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Un- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Yes.
doubtedly that is so; but we ought to be That could be clone by the suggested
careful to frame the bill in such a way amendment, which I assume is meant to
that there shall be no alteration of it of
carry out that view.
There is very great
any kind. This constitution, after being reason for urging that under such circum-
passed by the Convention elected by the stances the laws of the commonwealth
whole of the colonies, has to pass under the should apply to ships voyaging from one
review of the whole of the Australian par- port of the commonwealth to another.
liaments, and then be agreed to by the Mr. SYMON : Would it not be so with-
Imperial Parliament. It is intended to be out these words !
final, and that it shall come back to us, if The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No, it
possible, from the Imperial Parliament
would not.
exactly as it leaves these colonies. There- Mr. SYMON : For what reason ?
fore it seems to me that a proposal of this The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Because
kind should be dealt with on its merits, supposing that the commonwealth exer-
and if there is any reason to warrant us cises its powers to make uniform laws in
in rejecting the proposal we ought to reject regard to the shipping of the common-
it. I do not think the Premier of New wealth, those laws can be applied only
South Wales has sufficiently considered the within the 3-mile limit, and directly a ship
reason of this matter, if I may judge from gets outside the 3-mile limit it is outside
the observations he has made. Hon. mem- the territory in respect to which those
bers know that the laws of a colony apply laws apply. The laws of the common-
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
245
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
wealth with regard to shipping can only prevail in regard to all these matters. I
have operation within the 3-mile limit
agree with the right hon. member, Mr.
around the coasts of the commonwealth, Reid, that there should be one law for the
and when ships pass beyond that limit whole of the shipping of the empire, and
they are under British law. It is
very
de- I should be willing to agree to any amend-
sirable that the laws of the commonwealth, ment which would make it perfectly clear
so long as they do not conflict with the that the clause would not in any way con-
Merchant Shipping Act, or other British flict with the Merchant Shipping Law of
laws, should apply to vessels that are pass- Great Britain, which is in force on all
ing from one port of the commonwealth to. British ships. But I do not think that
another. I may give as an illustration the any such provision would be necessary, be-
criminal law. That is the most obvious cause if hon, members will look at the word-
one that can occur to anybody. Surely,
Surely, ing of the clause they will see that it says
considering the immense trade that exists “the laws of the commonwealth shall be in
now between the different ports of these force." The laws of the commonwealth,
colonies, and the variety and extent of under clause 52 of the draft constitution,
that trade, and the way it is likely to in- can relateonly to matters under the jurisdic-
crease, it is desirable that there should be
tion of the commonwealth. The common-
a uniform law, and that the law which is wealth will have no authority to make
to be administered within the common- laws in the domain affected by the British
wealth itself should apply on board these Merchant Shipping Acts which have been
ships. This provision means that all these referred to.
ships, when outside the 3-mile limit, in- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The navigation
stead of being as now in British territory,
acts !
would be in commonwealth territory.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The navi-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
gation acts of course apply only to terri-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The hon. torial limits. It may be a mere matter of
gentleman could not have understood what drafting ; but I am perfectly willing to
I was pointing out.
I propose that this consent to any amendment which will
provision should apply to ships only while make it clear that this provision which
voyaging from one port of the common- turns a ship passing from one colony to an-
wealth to another. Its only object would other into commonwealth territory should
be that in. so far as ships under those not be contrary to the Imperial Merchant
circumstances were concerned, the terri- Shipping Acts.
tory outside the 3-mile limit would be The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
turned from British territory into common- [12:32]: I think we should do well to re-
wealth territory. There are, of course, tain these words, though in a somewhat
other laws besides the criminal laws. I altered form. Substantially the provision
understand that some colonies have already is almost, though not quite, the same as
passed laws in regard to pearl fishing, and the provision in the Federal Council Act.
they may make laws in regard to beche-de- There is, however, an important exception
mer fishing, or if we develop our fisheries, as in that act which we ought in faithfulness
I hope they will be developed, we may have to insert here.
a fleet of many hundreds of vessels belong- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The hon.
ing to the conmonwealth outside the 3-mile member should not forget the limited range
limit. It seems to me very desirable of subjects dealt with by that act. Ship-
that the laws of the commonwealth should ping is not mentioned there!
246
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: That is a mat- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I made that
ter of degree; it is not a matter of prin- suggestion in Adelaide, and it has been
ciple.
followed in several of the legislatures. It
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is a takes away much of the absurdity of the
most important matter in this connection ! clause as it stands, and I think would fairly
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: If we are to meet the difficulty. I believe that if we sub-
have power to make laws as a common- stitute the word "and" for the word “or,"
wealth, it is highly important that those strike out the word " treaties," and insert
laws shall be properly carried out within " with the exception of her Majesty's ships
the commonwealth and upon all ships, of war," we shall bave done all that is fair
which, although they go beyond the 3- and right, and I believe that the Imperial
mile limit, are to all intents and purposes Government will then agree to the clause.
part and parcel of the commonwealth. Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12:35]:
The exception to which I wish to refer is I have not the Federal Council Bill before
an exception in regard to her Majesty's me; but I believe that that bill contained
ships of war. I think it is quite clear the words “sailing between the ports of
that we could not fairly ask the Inperial the colonies." The bill was sent home with
Parlianient to say that our laws should those words in it; but her Majesty's ad-
apply to her Majesty's ships of war, which visers at home deliberately changed the
are really Imperial territory. Therefore, I wording of the measure so as to give the
suggest that words should be inserted in Council wider jurisdiction. There was a
the clause, as in the Federal Council Act, limitation in the bill which does not appear
by way of exception. When we consider in the act, and the Imperial authorities
the immense coast-line which we have must have made this alteration for some
some 8,000 miles_and the possibility of specific purpose. They could not have acci-
having within the jurisdiction of the com- dentally inserted the words “port of clear-
monwealth at some future date-not a very ance, or.” There is no danger of conflict
distant one I hope-such places as the New between the laws of the commonwealth and
Hebrides, it is highly important for the car- the Imperial law. The moment a new act is
rying out of the laws of the commonwealth passed in England which conflicts with any
that we should not permit ships which are legislation passed by the commonwealth,
really part of our regular shipping trade to that act will to the extent of the difference
sail beyond the 3 miles limit, and then be abrogate the legislation under the consti- .
free from the commonwealth law:s. Such tution of Australia, At the present time
ships are to all intents and purposes part there is never any conflict. Our Marine
and parcel of the commonwealth, and these Board and navigation acts are not in con-
words are necessary, though in a slightly flict with the English merchant shipping
altered form, to effectuate our desire. When acts; but they give us jurisdiction, not to
we were discussing this matter in Adelaide, the 3 miles limit, but within Australian
I was very much puzzled, as to a certain waters, as specifically defined in these acts,
extent I am now, as to the real meaning that is, between port and port. Without
of these words:
these acts we should not have this juris-
Whose last port of clearance, or whose desti- diction. As I understand the law, it was
nation in the commonwealth.
decided in the case of the Franconia that
Clearly those words are too wide.
the 3-mile limit only applied in connection
An HON. MEMBER : Should not the with intercolonial disputes, that limit being
word " and " be substituted for " or "} arrived at in the first instance because it
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
247
[9 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
was then the range of a cannon shot; and Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12-39]:
that civil and criminal jurisdiction stopped I shall be found supporting the amend-
at low-water mark. Originally there was ment moved by the Right Hon. G. H.
no jurisdiction beyond the limits of mean Reid. I am not greatly influenced by the
low-water mark; but that jurisdiction has argument as to Australia being at some
been extended by legislation, and the future time the queen of the southern seas,
Imperial authorities deliberately changed or by the fact that in the Federal Council
words in the Federal Council Bill which Act these words, or some of them, were
would place a limitation upon the existing introduced. To begin with, we evidently
jurisdiction as defined by our local acts, do not intend to regard that as a particu-
so as to amplify it, and make it apply to larly binding precedent; for my hon. and
any vessel leaving our ports for foreign learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, proposes to
parts, or coming from foreign parts to the do some violence to the wording used by
colonies. They did this deliberately, and the Imperial authorities by substituting
in view of the fact that there was no pos-
the word "and ” for the word "or." So
sibility of conflicting decisions being arrived that, after all, we are not to accept the
at. Under the proposed constitution, we Federal Council provision as literally cor-
have no criminal jurisdiction at all, so that rect, and I think it is a very strong in-
if a crime is committed on board a ship.com- dication that the Imperial authorities
ing to Australia, the criminal will be tried either did not know very well what they
according to the laws of Great Britain. were doing, or that, on further reflection,
The Hon. E. BARTON : We cannot give we here think there is a better way. At
a sanction to a law without imposing some any rate, that shows very conclusively
penalty or punishment !
that the provision introduced into the
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. and learned Federal Council Act could not have been
gentleman is quite right; but we have put there with any careful premeditation
only power to impose such penalties as or thought, and I thoroughly agree with
will operate as sanctions for the civil legis- my hon. friend that the language, as it
lation under clause 5.2.
exists in the clause we are now consider-
The Hon. E. BARTON: We cannot estab ing, and as it exists in the Federal Coun-
lish a new criminal offence !
cil Act, is, to use the phraseology of Mr.
Mr. GLYNN: No, unless it is part of a Reid at the Adelaide Convention, sheer
sanction to enforce the obligation of a civil
nonsense. In addition to that, we are
law. So that if an offence is committed on all agreed that the words "and trea-
board a ship coming to the commonwealth ties” have to be eliminated. We have
it will have to be dealt with according to just amended the clause by striking out
the law of England, not according to the the reference to all treaties made by the
law of the commonwealth. Seeing that the commonwealth. Therefore, it is clear that
English authorities deliberately changed the language, as it appears bere, and as
the wording of the Federal Council Bill, we are now considering it, does not give
although there is no possibility of the legis- effect to what we believe to be the juris-
lation of the colonies clashing with Imperial diction of the commonwealth and the
legislation, because English legislation must scope of the commonwealth legislation.
abrogate colonial legislation to the extent I think there is a good deal of misap-
of the difference between them, I think we prehension as to the merchant shipping
should accept the words used by the Im- law of Great Britain. The Merchant Ship
perial advisers of her Majesty.
ping Act, as I have always understood, is
248
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
applicable to all British ships, including Convention indicated what I think is really
colonial ships. Every Australian vessel is in theminds of many hon. members, namely,
a British ship within the meaning of the that what is required is something to define
Merchant Shipping Act, and I do not be- territorial waters. It is a very important
lieve that any person, whether a simple matter, undoubtedly, as Mr. O'Connor,
citizen or one interested in shipping, would pointed out, that we should have full con-
·be prepared to abrogate the Imperial mer- trol over our fisheries, that we should be
chant shipping laws one iota, at any rate,
able to establish and regulate pearl fisheries,
without very careful consideration. These and various other pursuits of that kind
colonies have the power, subject to the beyond our 3-mile territorial limit. But
Merchant Shipping Act, of passing what we have that power expressly given to us
are called navigation acts—we call them under clause 52, sub-section 12, in refer-
in our colony marine board and navigation ence, for instance, to fisheries--and I am
acts—but that is entirely subsidiary to the not dealing now with anything else, but
Merchant Shipping Act, and everything simply taking that by way of illustration.
that takes place, every offence that is com-
The words in that sub-section are Fish-
mitted on board a British ship, the engage-
eries in Australian waters beyond terri-
ment of every seaman, the punishment of
torial limits." There
you
have it. If the
every offence, comes under the Imperial Imperial Parliament passed the Common-
Merchant Shipping Act, subject only to
wealth Bill containing that provision we
details of administration, and to the sum- should have express power to deal with
mary jurisdiction of particular courts as fisheries beyond territorial limits. That
provided for by the Merchant Shipping deals with the whole subject. With regard
Act for particular purposes in view. to criminal law, as my hon. friend, Mr.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There are some Glynn, pointed out, the criminal law of Eng-
sections of the Merchant Shipping Act, land is applicable on board every British
sections 54 and 94-which do not apply to ship, and you cannot take that away, nor
the colonies, unless the colonies adopt them! is it intended that it should be taken
Mr. SYMON: Just so; as there are also away or lessened in any manner whatever
certain provisions in other Imperial statutes by this constitution. Therefore, there is no-
which are not applicable, for instance, to thing to be gained by leaving these words,
Ireland ; and there are provisions which or any part of them, in the bill. The pre-
may be excepted as regards Scotland. It cedent of the Federal Council Act fails in
is exactly the same here. Therefore, the the particulars to which I have referred.
point taken by Mr. O'Connor loses its It cannot possibly extend the operation of
force. The Merchant Shipping Act is the our laws generally one atom further than
Imperial legislation dealing with shipping, the constitutional law will permit.
and nothing we can do by general words The Hon. N. J. BROWN:
of this character can have the effect of re- Mr. SYMON: Not under this. My hon.
pealing the Merchant Shipping Act in friend will find that under the Federal
relation to all British ships.
Council Act there is express provision for
Mr. GLYNN: When we legislate under the passing of laws dealing with fisheries.
this constitution it will !
But that is legislation specially directed to
Mr. SYMON: I do not think so. The a particular purpose, and so far as this act
limitation of our legislation under the com- specially confers power to deal with a par-
monwealth is contained in clause 52, and ticular subject, the laws passed under that
a few minutes ago the President of the power will be enforceable. But a general
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
249
[9 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
expression of this kind amounts to nothing: think would so restrict the matter that
It is nonsense as it stands. We have to there could be no objection on the part of
alter it; and, therefore, to suggest that we the Colonial Office, while, on the other hand,
should have some special regard to the in- any shipping which is ours, or ought to be
sertion of it by somebody in England who under our jurisdiction, would be fully pro-
perhaps did not thoroughly appreciate what tected. That, I think, is the point we ought
the position was is to ask us to assent to to aim at, and I would suggest, therefore,
something of which our better judgment that we should alter the word "or"to"and,"
does not approve.
as my hon. and learned friend, Mr. Isaacs,
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South suggests, and strike out the words " and
Wales) [12:47]: The difficulty to be obvi- treaties.” I would also suggest that it would
ated is one which must arise very fre- cause no harm to accept the suggestion of
quently. Imagine the commonwealth to one of the houses of legislature to adopt the
have legislated on the subject of naviga- words “whose first port of clearance and
tion and shipping. Without some provi- whose port of destination are in the com-
sion of this sort—I do not say exactly like monwealth.” That has been designed to
this--the captain of a vessel sailing be- provide for any difficulty that might arise
tween two ports in the commonwealth will with regard to vessels which commence
be under the law of the commonwealth their journey in the way the mail stcamers
when he is within the 3-inile limit, and do coming out here, and which might have
will be under the Imperial shipping law the additional obligation of laws imposech
when he is outside that limit. The diffi- upon them, causing some conflict and em-
culty will be great enough in the case of barrassment if the clause were left in its
a captain of a steam vessel. His vessel original wide terms.
may be within a certain distance of the An Hon. MEMBER :
shore in calm weather, and if it comes on The Hon. E. BARTON: It might go
to blow, and he has to take an offing, he a little further than that. But still I
will be under a different law. But in the
think that, having got that, we shall have
case of a sailing vessel proceeding under a that which should suffice for all ordinary
head wind, she will be alternately inside cases; and I think we might rest content
and outside the 3-mile limit, and the un- with it, because I am quite with those who
fortunate captain will be embarrassed by say that the less opportunity we give for
being under one law when inside the 3- amendment in these covering provisions
inile limit, and under another law when the better. We do not expect that the
outside the 3-mile limit, and he will not Imperial legislature will amend the provi-
know when he has passed that mark. sions which are in the constitution itself,
Mr. SYMON : But that exists now ! although they are an endeavour to extend
The Hon. E. BARTON: There is no our autonomy; but these covering clauses
reason why there should not be some im- áre suggestions to the Imperial legislature,
provement. I am not particular about and it would be absurd to expect that, as
the retention of these words. I do not regards these clauses, the Imperial legisla-
think any very serious injury would be ture will not make such amendments as
done by the omission of the whole of these they please. In that respect, we are not
words. On the other hand, I think it only powerless, but we freely admit that
would be preferable that we should limit we must not attempt to dictate—that this
them in the direction of the amendment I portion is merely in the form of sugges-
in icated some little time ago, which I tions to the Imperial legislature, to be
T
250
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
dealt with as it pleases. A matter of this because ships sailing from England for
kind is practically so unimportant that I Australia carry on board of them Austra-
do not care very much what the result of lians and they are laden with the property
this debate is, except that I think the pre- of Australians.
ferable course is that in which I think I The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: Not
have the concurrence of a majority of the solely !
Convention.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: But
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It will be neces- chiefly. I do not think any harm could
sary to introduce words excepting her be done if those ships were entirely under
Majesty's ships !
Australian laws, although we know that
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am quite that would not be the case. But I do
prepared to insert words excepting her think that ships trading in the Southern
Majesty's ships.
Ocean in the immediate vicinity of Aus-
[T'he Chairman left the chair at 12:55 p.m. The tralia to ports not in the commonwealth,
Committee resumed at 2:35 p.m.]
although close to it, and under precisely
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South similar conditions to those obtaining in
Australia) [2:35]: I do not think we other parts of Australia--being possibly a
should act upon the assumption of the Im- part of Australia itself-should be brought
perial Parliament having made a mistake under the commonwealth laws. In any
in this matter. I think the best course for case, I think the Imperial authorities had
us to take would be to put this clause into some such thought as that in their minds
similar words to those in the Federal when they framed the Federal Council
Council Act, as passed by the Imperial Act, and I think we had better word this
Parliament. I would point out to the clause similarly. Let us adapt it to our
leader of the Convention that I do not requirements, and put it on all-fours with
think the amendment proposed would alto- the clause to which I refer, excepting, of
gether meet some of the cases.
Suppose
course, British ships of war, the inclusion
you strike out the word "or”and insert the of which cannot have been contemplated
word "and" in the thirteenth line, and sup by the Imperial act constituting the Federal
pose that a ship leaves any part of the Council, and which certainly ought not to
commonwealth for Queensland which be included here. It is not for us to assume
does not happen to be a part of the com- that the Imperial Government or Parlia-
monwealth—or that she starts for Fiji, or ment do not know what they are about,
New Zealand, or any other place in the and it certainly is not for us to limit the
vicinity of Australia, possibly for another operation of the commonwealth laws in
part of the continent; immediately the the immediate vicinity of the common-
ship is 3 miles away from her port of wealth.
departure she would cease to be under The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
the commonwealth laws. I think that a (South Australia) [238] : I am sure that
ship sailing from Sydney to Brisbane, our desire is to secure two objects— first,
although Brisbane would not be in the to obtain as large powers in managing our
federation, should properly be under Aus- own affairs as may be conveniently con-
tralian laws. In fact I do not see that a ferred ; and, secondly, to avoid the intro-
great deal of harm would be done if ships duction into this bill of any provision
sailing from England to Australia were which would necessitate its amendment
brought under Australian laws. It is not before it received the assent of the Im-
for us to say that they ought not to be, perial Parliament. Under these circum-
+
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
251
stances, I am again prepared to follow, to The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Of
a great extent, the leader of the Conven- course; and that would be a reason for not
tion. I think a good plan to adopt would fixing it now once and for all, but from
be this: to define if we can or to take the time to time as the other colonies came in.
power of definition of that area of those The CHAIRMAN : The first amendment I
waters in which the commonwealth ought shall put is suggested by the Legislative
to have supreme jurisdiction, and which Council of South Australia, namely, to
may be properly called Australian waters. omit the word "and," line 10, and to in
An Hon. MEMBER: What are they? sert the words “in addition to the laws of
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: Great Britain.” Perhaps I may explain
Does the hon. member know? I do not to the Committee that I do not think I
know at the present moment, but we must ought now to put the amendment proposed
have a definition, because on page 13 we by the Right Hon. G. H. Reid, because if
use the expression "Fisheries in Australian that were put and negatived, it would be
waters beyond territorial limits." I do not incompetent for the Committee to consider
think you can, at the present moment, adopt the suggestions made by all the other
once and for all a permanent definition of legislatures. I intend to put all the amend-
what these Australian waters are. The plan ments in such a form as to enable the Com-
which might be best adopted would be to mittee to give a vote on every amendment
give power to the Queen-in-Council to de- suggested by every legislature.
clare these waters. That I think was the The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
provision adopted in the Federal Council South Wales) [2:45]: I wish to say that
Bill. Not only was the power given to regu- an amendment was proposed by the Legis-
late fisheries in Australian waters, beyond lative Council of this colony which pro-
territorial limits, but under this power, by vided that the laws of the commonwealth
acts of the Federal Council, the bech-de-mer should apply to all British ships whose first
fisheries of Queensland and the pearl fish- port of clearance, and whose port of destina-
eries of Western Australia were dealt with, tion is in the commonwealth. I am not
although admittedly they were far beyond at all opposed to that form of words, be-
the territorial limits of any colony or of all
cause there is no doubt there are a num-
Australia combined. I would suggest that, ber of difficulties such as the hon. mem-
as a definition of Australian waters must ber, Mr. O'Connor, pointed out, where
be provided for, perhaps the solution of vessels are going out on fishing expedi-
the difficulty may be found by giving a tions beyond the 3-mile limit, but which
power of general legislation with respect return to the same port. There could be
to British ships in Australian waters, and no difficulty about those vessels, such as
then frame a clause which will enable whalers. But as the words stand they
those Australian waters to be defined when would create a difficulty. What would we
the occasion arises. I think, but I am not say if the Canadian legislature put in these
quite sure, that with respect to the locality words in one of their acts, and claimed
of the beche-de-mer and pearl fisheries of authority over vessels coming to Sydney
Australia, an Order-in-Council was issued from Canada ? It would throw the whole
defining these boundaries before the legis- of our shipping laws into confusion. But
lation was adopted by the Federal Council. it is quite consistent with all our shipping
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : That might laws that the amendment which our Legis-
be objected to by Queensland, Fiji, or New lative Council has suggested, should be
Zealand !
passed, and I cannot see any serious objcc-
252
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
in this way:
tion to it. I am not at all clear that it is mittee on the other point, I think the con-
necessary because all the provisions of the fusion will be doubly increased if we insert
British shipping acts can be administered these words. I therefore suggest that the
in the colonies. I quite see, as the Chair- Committee should give careful considera-
man has pointed out, that if my amendment tion before they insert an expression of
were put, it might prevent the considera- that kind.
tion of other amendments, and I am quite The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New South
willing to withdraw my amendment and Wales) [2.50]:. I think the amendment
hear what suggestions can be made, and any suggested by the Legislative Council of
amendment that the hon. member, Mr. New South Wales will carry out what ap-
O'Connor, can propose.
pears to be the sense of the Committee,
The CHAIRMAN : Perhaps I may explain that is, to amend the clause so as to read
that I propose, if the amendment of South
Australia is negatived, to put as a test Whose first port of clearance and whose port
the next amendment, which is that of the of destination are in the commonwealth.
Legislative Council of Victoria, namely, to That will make it quite clear that it ap-
strike out the latter part of the clause plies only to ships whose whole voyage is
beginning with the words "and the laws." within the commonwealth, and however
I will put the question that the words "and desirable it may be to extend it to other
the laws" only be omitted. If that ques- cases such as has been mentioned by my
tion is carried it will necessitate striking right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, I do not see
out all the rest of the words of the clause,
that it can be done. I think all we can do
but putting it in that form will enable the is to ensure that the laws of the common-
Committee to vote, if the amendment is
wealth shall be in force on all ships whose
negatived, on the amendments of the other voyage is wholly within the commonwealth.
legislatures.
I quite agree with what my hon. and learned
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [248]: friend, Mr. Symon, has said, that it will
I would point out that it would be ex-
make confusion worse confounded to in-
ceedingly undesirable to insert these words sert the words "in addition to British
“in addition to the laws of Great Britain." laws." It might make it more clear, per-
Such an amendment would be most con- haps, to insert these words : “the laws of
fusing and embarrassing. Either one set the commonwealth in so far as the same
of laws or the other should prevail. Which- are not repugnant to any Imperial act
ever prevails constitutionally we shall have relating to shipping or navigation.”
to submit to, that is, whatever set of laws
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : Is there not an
is paramount. As the hon. member, Mr. Imperial act relating to repugnancy?
Barton, reminds me, the word "laws” in this The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The Colo-
clause means statute laws, it has nothing nial Laws Validating Act applies only to
to do with the common law of England. the acts of the different states; it would
So that by inserting these words “in addi- not apply to this act at all, so that I think
tion to the laws of Great Britain” we shall
”
it will be necessary to have some words of
be making confusion worse confounded. that kind inserted.
Even the words “Great Britain” are a The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That will be
little uncertain. The amendment is bad unnecessary, because the Imperial law is
in substance, and also in form. Although paramount !
I yield my opinion in deference to what The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I really
appears to be the opinion of the Com- think it would be better only to accept
$
[The Right II01. G. II. Reid.
Commonwealth of
253
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
the amendment of the Legislative Council the branches of the legislature and to the
of New South Wales, which I think carries executive. Some houses, I believe, have
out the views of the Committee.
made a suggestion for an alteration of the
Question-That the words “in addition names. One house, I know, has suggested
to the laws of Great Britain " be inserted that the name should be " House of As-
-resolved in the negative.
sembly" instead of “House of Represen-
The CHAIRMAN : The next amendment
tatives." I feel bound to mention that
suggested is that by the Legislative Council . fact, because the suggestion comes from a
of Victoria to strike out the words :
house of legislature in this colony.
And the laws and treaties of the common-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We
wealth shall be in force on board of all British will stand by the bill; that's the best way!
ships whose last port of clearance or whose port
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : We will stand
of destination is in the commonwealth.
by the bill !
I would ask the Committee to take a test
The CHAIRMAN : There is no amendment
vote whether that suggestion should be
suggested in this clause.
agreed to on the question to strike out the
Mr. SYHON : Yes, to omit the word
words "and the laws.” If we strike out
6 federal”!
these words we must strike out the rest of
The Hon. E. BARTON: That was con-
the clause. If we do not strike them out
sequential on what they did.
we can make the amendments suggested by The CHAIRMAN : I am not going to put
the legislatures or consider any other sug-
such amendments. I understood that once
gestion.
it was decided that the word "
common-
Amendment (suggested by the Legisla- wealth” should be retained I should not
tive Council of Victoria) negatived. put any amendments absolutely contra-
Amendment (suggested by the Legisla- dictory to the resolution which had been
tire Council of New South Wales) agreed arrived at.
Clause agreed to.
That the words " and treaties," line 10, be
CHAPTER I.--THE PARLIAMENT.
omitted.
Part I.-General.
Amendments (suggested by the Legisla-
Clause 1. The legislative powers of the com-
tive Council of New South Wales) agreed
monwealth shall bevested in a federal parliament,
which shall consist of the Queen, a senate, and
That the words “excepting her Majesty's a house of representatives, and which is herein-
ships and vessels of war" be inserted after the after called “the parliament," or "the parlia-
words “British ships," line 12.
inent of the commonwealth."
That the word “last,” line 12, be omitted
Amendments suggested by the Legislative Coun-
with the view to the insertion in its place of the
cil of New South Vales :
word “first."
Omit the word “federal," line 2; omit "
That the word "or,” line 13, be omitted with
presentatives,” line 4, and insert "assembly.”
the view to the insertion in its place of the word
srand."
Amendments negatived; clause agreed
That the word “is,” line 13, be omitted with to.
the view to the insertion in its place of the word Clause 2 (Governor-General).
"sare."
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I would
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
suggest to the hon. and learned member,
Clause 8 (Division of Constitution).
Mr. Barton, that this clause should be
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South postponed.
Wales) [2:55]: The first portion of this The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
clause involves the names to be given to Wales): With the consent of the Committee,
to:
to :
re-
254 Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
I will postpone the clause. Some question Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [3.5] :
may arise about the clause, which I do not I move :
like to indicate at present; but the Com-
That the words, “The salary of a governor-
mittee may take my word for it that it
general shall not be altered during his continu-
ance of office," be omitted.
will be wise to postpone it now.
Clause postponed.
My reason for moving this amendment is
that it is a matter of legislation. The para-
Clause 3. Until the parliament otherwise pro-
graph was inserted at the last moment by
vides, the annual salary of the governor-general
shall be ten thousand pounds, and shall be pay.
the Convention at Adelaide. The prin-
able to the Queen out of the consolidated re- ciple on which we ought to act is not to
venue fund of the commonwealth.
put anything in the bill which is a matter
The salary of a governor-general shall not be
of legislation.
altered during his continuance in office.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It was
The CHAIRMAN : Two amendments have
in the bill of 1891 !
been suggested in this clause. The House
Amendment negatived ; clause agreed
of Assembly of South Australia suggests
to.
that the salary of the governor-general Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to:
shall be £7,000, and the Legislative Coun-
Clause 6. The governor-general may ap-
cil of South Australia suggests that it shall
point such times for holding the first and
be £8,000. I will put the question every other session of the parliament as he
" That the word “ten” proposed to be
may thiuk fit, giving sufficient notice thereof,
struck out stand part of the clause."
and may also from time to time, by procla- 5
mation or otherwise, prorogue the parlia-
Question- That the word "ten" stand
ment, and may in like manner dissolve the
part of the clause---put. The Committee house of representatives.
divided :
The parliament shall be called together
not later than six months after the establish- 10
Ayes, 38; noes, 7; majority, 31.
ment of the common pealth.
AYES.
Abbott, Sir Joseph Holder, F. W.
Amendment suggested by the Legislc:tive Assen-
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Isaacs, I. A.
bly of South Australia :
Briggs, H.
James, W. H.
After " dissolve," line 7, insert “the senate
Brown, N. J.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Brunker, J. N. Lewis, N. E.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic-
Clarke, M. J.
O'Connor, R. E.
toria) [3.9]: Before we proceed with this
Crowder, F. T. Peacock, A. J.
clause I desire to make a suggestion. The
Deakin, A.
Quick, Dr. J.
Douglas, A.
Reid, G. H.
clause will, I think, open up a big ques-
Downer, Sir J. W. Solomon, V. L.
tion in regard to the settling of deadlocks.
Forrest, Sir J.
Symon, J. H.
The whole question of deadlocks will have
Fraser, S.
Trenwith, W. A.
to be discussed at a later stage, and I
Fysh, Sir P. O. Turner, Sir G.
Glynn, P. M.
Venn, H. W.
think it would be wise to postpone the
Grant, C. H.
Walker, J. T.
clause in the meantime. I do not know
Hackett, J. W. Wise, B. R.
that I would, in any case, give power to
Hassell, A. Y.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
Henning, A. H.
the government of the day to dissolve the
Henry, J.
Teller,
senate. It is one thing to give it with
Higgins, H. B.
Barton, E.
an object in view, with certain restrictions
NOES.
and limitations, and it is another thing to
Berry, Sir G.
Kingston, Sir C. C.
give an unrestricted power to the govern-
Dobson, H.
Moore, W.
Gordon, J. H.
ment of the day to dissolve the senate
Howe, J. H.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A.
whenever it chooses. That is a power I
Question so resolved in the affirmative. would not be prepared to give if I could
or."
Teller,
!
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
255
[9 Sept., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
possibly avoid it. In order that we may think that the question ought to be dis-
have a fair and open discussion on the cussed on its own merits, inasmuch as
matter, I suggest that the wiser course we are to have two independent houses,
would be to allow this clause to stand and the only reason that now prevents
over until we have dealt with the other the dissolution of a second house is that
question.
it is not representative. Both of these
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South houses will be representative, and, there-
Wales) [3.10]: I quite approve of the fore, I think that they should be sub-
suggestion which my right hon. friend has ject to dissolution. It will be remembered
made. On clause 9, which we shall reach that in the Convention in Adelaide I
presently, there will be a thoroughly wide moved that there should be absolute power
and comprehensive debate on the relative in the governor-general to dissolve either
powers of the two houses. Of course, in house. I know that it is not a cure for
considering the question of equal represen- everything. I know that it is not suffi-
tation, we cannot exclude from considera- cient in itself. I know that on an appeal
tion what money powers the houses will to the states and to the people it may be
respectively have, and the opinions of many that the states will say one thing and the
of us may be influenced—I know the people another.
people another. But I do not apprehend
opinions of some hon, members will be in- that there will be much difference between
fluenced-by the question as to whether the two houses as to state interests. How-
there is to be any provision to meet dead- ever, the question now is, are we or are we
locks. I do not wish to debate that ques- not to postpone this clause? The view of the
tion at this moment. I can, however, see hon, and learned leader of the Convention,
that there is some feeling in favour of pro- I understand, is that it is one of the
viding something which may be called a
means of solving deadlocks. I do not
safety-valve. I do not myself attach as
recognise that at all. I say it is an essen-
much importance to such a provision as tial means for the purpose of prerenting
some hon. members do; but the demand deadlocks occurring in a number of cases.
for it has been so general that it will force
Otherwise you give one of the two houses
on me a full consideration of the question,
an enormous advantage. One has a six
and I agree with my right hon. friend that years' tenure, and the other a tenure of
the best plan at present is to postpone this only three years, and may be dissolved at
clause. I therefore move :
pleasure. I admit that this provision is
That the clause be postponedl.
not a complete solution of the deadlock
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [3.12] : I question ; but I regard it as an essential
understand that, according to the standing provision of the constitution, and think
orders, one member cannot object to the that there must be other provisions as well
postponement of any clause supposing the to avoid deadlocks.
House is in favour of its postponement. The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We
Personally I think that this clause ought can discuss all those !
not to be postponed. I think that this Mr. HIGGINS: Yes; but by postpon-
question of the dissolution of the senate ing this clause we shall practically assume
ought to be discussed on its own merits. that the dissolution of the senate is to be
Not that I think that this provision is one of the alternative means for avoiding
sufficient in itself to obviate deadlocks, deadlocks.
but that it is one of the means which
The Hon. E. BARTON: We shall not
would make the constitution workable. I
assume anything of that kind !
256
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
nons.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Without we come to the senate we will consider
prejudice !
whether it should or should not be liable
Mr. HIGGINS : So far as I ani con-
to dissolution under any circumstances.
cerned, I think it is better not to have the
Clause postponed.
question postponed.
Clause 7 agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN : I understand it to be Clause 8 (Privileges, &c., of houses).
the general wish of the Committee that The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
when we come to clause 9 the whole South Wales) (3.17]: I do not intend to
question relating to the senate shall be
propose an amendment, but I must point
discussed.
out that under this clause it would be in
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON the power of the houses of the common-
(Tasmania) [3:15]: I intended to move
wealth, when they did draw up laws regu-
the postponement of the clause iſ the leader lating their privileges and immunities, to
of the Convention did not do so, for I think
frame them even in excess of those enjoyed
that before we approach this question, or
by the members of the House of Com-
I do not wish to create unneces-
any question dealing with the settlement
of deadlocks or interference with the sary debate, but I confess that I should
status or the existence of the senate, it prefer this clause very much if there were
is most desirable that we should know a provision in the constitution itself that
thoroughly what the powers of the senate any such powers and immunities as the
are to be. I, at any rate, am one who
two houses may frame for themselves,
would not be in a position to give a vote
shall not exceed those of the House of
on this question of dissolution, or on any
Commons, which, I am suro, are compre-
question affecting deadlocks, until I knew hensive enough ; at the same time I see
that. I should vote against this provision
the inconvenience of definition, because
now, desiring to see, at any rate, that there might be a perpetual dispute as to
the senate shall have that due continuity whether a given provision was or was not
which it is argued so strongly is one of its
in excess, and in view of the fact that we
rights and privileges. But if the question do not want to have these powers, whatever
of the powers of the senate is settled in a they may be, open to continual question, I
spirit of equity and justice I shall be found think that, upon the whole, we can safely
among those who will vote for this mode trust the Parliament in this matter not to
of settling deadlocks.
go to any extreme.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
Clause agreed to.
Australia) (3-16]: It seems to me that Clause 9. The senate shall be composed of
this clause will hare to be passed in any
six senators for each state, and each senator
shall have one vote.
case—that is to say, the people's house
The senators shall be directly chosen by the
will bave to be subject to dissolution by people of the state as one electorate.
5
the governor general, without reference to The senators shall be chosen for a term of
the other house. That may or may not be
six years, and the names of the senators
chosen by each state shall be certified by the
liable to dissolution. We will consider
governor to the governor-general.
that question when we come to it. As The Parliament shall have power, from 10
far as this clause is concerned, I think we time to time, to increase or diminish the num-
should agree to it without any discussion,
ber of senators for each state, but so that the
for the house of representatives must of
equal representation of the several states shall
be maintained, and that no state shall have
course be liable to dissolution, and when less than six senators.
15
Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
257
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
reason,
The qualification of electors of senators ciple of equal representation is granted to
shall be in each state that which is prescribed
the original states, in accordance with
by this constitution or by the Parliament as
clause 114, the admission of new states
the qualification for electors of members of
20 the house of representatives, but in the choos-
will be subject to the terms imposed by
ing of senators each elector shall vote only the commonwealth.
once, and if any elector votes more than once
Mr. HIGGINS : It is suggested that there
he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
should be a quota!
The CHAIRMAN : I shall put this clause
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is not
by paragraphs.
involved in the amendment. I have left
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
the number of senators to be dealt with
Wales) (3:19]: I wish to get a certain
by the parliament. In the latter part of
amendment put, if possible, first, for this
the amendment I have given the parlia-
The amendment which I wish to
ment the right to increase the number of
more, though not a very great alteration
senators as they think fit, so long as the
in principle, involves the recasting of the
minimum number from each original state
clause-the making of it clearer, and, I
is six.
think, in better consecutive form. The
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Will
reason why I wish to move the amendment
that enable the total to be absolutely
now—and I will move it by way of inser-
increased ?
tion, so as not to interfere with any words
The Hon. E. BARTON: Which total?
now in the clause—is this : Amendments
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
have been proposed by several houses of
total number which the hon. and learned
legislature, and if they were taken first
gentleman bas left blank.
the result might be that the Committee
The Hon. E. BARTON: The blank
might decide that certain words should
which appears in the amendment which I
stand part of the bill, which would prevent
moved in the New South Wales Legisla-
the putting of my amendment.
tive Council is a misprint. I wish my
amendment seems to involve the whole of
amendment to read :
the clause except the last paragraph, I will The senate shall be composed of senators for
state it now, and ask you, Mr. Chairman, each state.
what would be the best way to obtain its The amendment makes that part of the
consideration. I propose to recast the first constitution which refers to the establish-
four paragraphs of the clause, so as to ment or admission of states more intelligible
make the clause read in this way:
and clear, and as a matter of draftmanship
The senate shall be composed of senators for it would appear to be a little better than
each state, directly chosen by the people of the the original clause.
state as one electorate, and each senator shall
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No power is
have one vote. Until the parliament otherwise
provides there shall be six senators for each
given to the parliament to increase or
original state. The parliament may, from time
diminish the number of senators for the
to time, increase or diminish the number of now states !
senators for each state, but so that equal repre- The Hon. E. BARTON: I am leaving
sentation of the several original states shall be
maintained (and that no original state shall have
out the word “original” in the part my
less than six senators). The senators shall be
hon. and learned friend is referring to.
chosen for a term of six years, and the names of The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
the senators chosen by each state shall be cer-
tified by the governor to the governor-general.
would suggest that the hon. and learned
member ask leave to substitute his amend-
That is practically a recasting of the clause, ment for that portion of the clause which
and in order to make it clear that the prin- he proposes to recast !
As niy
258
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not wish The CHAIRMAN : I think it would, per-
to do that, because the question then put haps, be better if the amendments were
from the Chair would be “That the words put in the form which I now suggest. I
proposed to be omitted stand part of the propose to split up the amendments of the
question”; and, if the amendment were Legislative. Council and Legislative As-
rejected, the rest of the clause could not sembly of New South Wales, and to put
be altered. I propose to move the inser- first the amendments suggested by the
tion of the words I have read after the Legislative Council and the Legislative
word “the” at the beginning of the clause. Assembly of New South Wales. If it is
The amendment will then be open, to decided that the words proposed to be
amendment, and if it is rejected the clause omitted shall stand, the hon. and learned
will still be open to amendment.
member, Mr. Barton, can move the inser-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: If what
tion of the word "original" after the word
"state."
the hon. member proposes is a mere recast-
ing of the clause in order to get it into a
The Hon. E. BARTON : Perhaps we had
better form, it might very well stand over better. leave that to the Drafting Com-
until the bill goes before the Drafting mittee !
Committee !
The CHAIRMAN : In that case I will put
The Hon. E. BARTON : I suggested the amendment of the Legislative Council
the insertion of the words I have read after and Legislative Assembly of New South
the word "the" because that will still allow
Wales to strike out the words “six sena-
a general debate upon the whole clause. tors for each state." Upon that amend-
If the amendment is accepted, the drafting ment the question of equal representation
of the clause will, I think, be improved ;
can be discussed. I will then put as an-
while, if it is rejected, the clause will still other amendment the suggested amend-
be open to amendment.
ment omitting the words “and each sena-
tor shall have one vote.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The
mere improved draftsmanship of the clause
Amendment suggested by the Council and As-
would, I think, be better dealt with after sembly, New South Wales :
we have dealt with the salient principles Paragraph 1. Omit "six senators for each
involved. There is no doubt that a great
state, and each senator shall have one vote."
Insert " members representing the states in pro-
deal of revision can be done in regard to
portion to their population. But no state shall
the drafting of the bill. If the amendment
have less than three senators. The senate shall
does not raise any new controversial consist of not less than forty members."
point
Mr. WISE : Will it be competent for the
The Hon. E. BARTON: It does not. Committee to discuss the question of find-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Then ing some way out of the deadlock? The
I think it would be more convenient Committee's de'ermination upon that ques-
to have a debate upon the clause as it tion may influence the votes of many hon.
stands !
members in regard to the question of
The Hon. E. BARTON: I shall be quite equal representation.
content with the understanding that if the The CHAIRMAN : Strictly speaking, it
Committee adheres to the original inten- would not ; but I understand that it is the
tion of the clause the Drafting Committee wish of the Committee that the general
will make some amendment of the kind I question of the constitution of the senate
have suggested.
should be discussed now upon this clause.
+
t
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
259
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [3.28] : At When you find that the proposal is that,
the Convention in Adelaide I moved the upon all subjects of legislation-whether,
omission of the word "six” practically for instance, on bankruptcy or divorce-
with the same object as the Legislative a man in New South Wales is to be treated
Council and Legislative Assembly of New as equal only to one-eighth of a man in
South Wales had in view.
Tasmania, the absurdity of the thing is so
Mr. WISE : Not with the same object as apparent that the good sense of the people
the Council had in view. Their object was of Australia is coming round, not merely
to kill federation!
in New South Wales and Victoria, but in
Mr. HIGGINS: The only object of all the colonies, to see the impossibility of
which we can officially take notice is that the arrangement. In moving my amend-
expressed by their words, and the object ment, I had in my mind not alone the
expressed by their words is that there question of equal representation. I had
shall not be equal representation. I am in my mind a fallacious principle which
not going to assume, as the hon. and learned was at the basis of equal representation,
member, Mr. Wise, appears to desire me and of a number of other chimerical pro-
to assume, that their intentions were any- posals—a principle which is at the root of
thing else. I have read the debates which a number of difficulties in our general
took place in the Legislative Council and scheme. I mean the principle that we
Legislative Assembly of this colony, and I were to insist upon the consent of the
take it that there are as strong federa- states as well as the consent of the people.
tionists in that Council and Assembly as I deny that to be a principle of federation
any here. We have no right to call these at all, and I defy any of those who advo-
gentlemen provincialists. I rather take it cate federation on the scheme in this bill
that those are provincialists who, in con- to point to any authority of weight to show
ceding powers to the federation, still insist that that is an essential principle of feder-
that the states shall keep a control over ation. It has been drilled into the ears
those powers by means of equal repre- of the people throughout the colonies, and
sentation. I need hardly say that, hav- I want to find out where it comes in. This
ing moved the amendment in Adelaide, question of federation is a mere question
under circumstances which were most dis- of a mode of government. All govern-
couraging, and made mine a very uphill ments, as Burke says, are mere contri-
fight, because I felt that, no matter what vances for the benefit of the people. There
I said, I should be beaten and have only is no cut-and-dried system of federation
a small minority with me, I an not going which we are to adopt, and say that that
to change my views now in view of the and nothing else is federation. This prin-
circumstances which have occurred since. ciple of the consent of the states, and the
The Hon. J. H. HOWE : The hon. mem- consent of the people, has led many of the
ber will change his tactics, I suppose !
reasoners on federation into a most diffi-
Mr. HIGGINS: There is no question cult position. You are in the chair, sir,
that has touched the imagination of the
but I may say this much, that I have read
people of Australia in connection with the with great interest a pamphlet by Sir
federation scheme so completely as this Richard Baker, which has been issued
question of equalstate representation. And since the Convention sat in Adelaide, in
I knew it would be so.
which he deals with this matter, and in
to myself any special knowledge of the feel- that pamphlet he starts with the prin-
ing of Australia, but the thing is so obvious. ciple of the consent of the states as well
I do not arrogate
-
260
Australia Bill.
Commonuealth of
59 SEPT., 1897.1
as of the people being necessary, and as consent of the states on a federal subject
a result he logically comes to the con- is necessary in addition to the consent of
clusion that you cannot have responsible the people is rapidly disappearing. That
government in a federation. I am con- bubble has been pricked; that tyre has
vinced by the logic of the writer of the been punctured, and although all the wind
pamphlet, but at the same time I deny the is not out of it yet, there is no doubt the
premise. I say that the consent of a state wind will soon be out of it. Like Humpty-
is not necessary to a federation. No con- dumpty, who sat upon a wall, it has had a
sent, in the ultimate result, ought to be great fall, and three score men and three
necessary to the administration of the
score more cannot make Humpty-dumpty
affairs of the people, or to the making of as he was before. I have said that the
the laws of the people, but the consent of feeling of the people is coming round on
the people, and any other consent which this question of state representation. At
you put in, in addition to the consent of the Adelaide Conrention, my right hon.
the people, is a consent which means to a friend, Mr. Reid, was good enough to refer
large extent a baffling and a thwarting of to the principle of proportional representa-
the people.
tion as impracticable, and as the subject
Mr. Wise: The consent of the states is of a mere academical dispute. What I am
necessary!
curious to know nowis whether that proposi-
Mr. HIGGINS: The consent of the tion ceases to be impracticable, and whether
states is necessary when you are going the dispute ceases to be academical when
into a league, but as soon as you are in a
the hon. member finds thatthe two houses of
league the consent of the people is suffi- legislature over which he rules haveaffirmed
cient. I am not going to be thwarted by two majorities that equal representation
by anything of that kind, because I feel should not be adopted. Does the dispute
confident that the sense of the people of cease to be academical when we find that
Australia, even in the less populous colo- the New South Wales Assembly, by a
nies, has come round to recognise the jus- majority of 59 to 4, voted against equal
tice of the view I put forward. A num- representation? Does the dispute cease to
ber of phrases have become current, and be academical and the question cease to be
have been accepted as gospel, from federal impracticable as soon as the Premier of
teachers or assumed federal teachers, who New South Wales finds that the vast mass
say, for instance, that because you have one of the people in his colony as well as in
man one vote you ought to have one state the other colonies are coming round to the
one vote. That is one of the most trans- view that equal representation is an injus-
parent fallacies that could be ennunciated. tice and a snare? As I am speaking to
A state has no right to a vote in a federal the same audience whom I addressed on
matter any more than a feueration has a the last occasion, I do not think I shall be
right to a vote in a state matter. The proper justified in going into this question at very
corollary of one man one vote is many great length. In reading the debates of
men many votes. It is a matter of arith- the New South Wales Parliament I was
metic. If you give one man one vote, then gratified to think that that legislature at
have
many men you must give those least had the courage to express their true
many men many votes. Having watched mind upon the matter, unlike our Vic-
the course of the debates on this subject torian Parliament, where, unfortunately,
in the different colonies, I have come to we were beaten on this issue by a majority
the conclusion that the doctrine that the of 45 to 36. If we had had five members
if you
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
261
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
from the other side we should have won same time, the views of a few members of
upon the issue. But for the fact that the Parliament in South Australia may have
leader of the Government for the time- a considerable influence on certain hon.
being in Victoria did not see his way to gentlemen I see around me. I was exceed-
depart from the vote he gave in Adelaide ingly amused at the debates in South
-although with his usual clearness and Australia on this subject. We found mem-
comprehensive grasp, he saw the fallacyber after member saying that he saw no
of the principle of equal representation need for a second house at all. Member
but for the fact that he threw the after member said, “What is the use of
weight of his influence and advice against a senate, it is not wanted ?” The Hon. Sir
the movement, we should have won. We John Downer, who is watching this Feder-
wanted five members to get a majority. ation Bill keenly and quietly, as soon as
There was not found in the Victorian he saw hon. members going upon that
Parliament a single member who justified dangerous track, interrupted with such a
the principle of equal representation. The question as tủis : “Would you fight against
only attempt at justification was the state- the smaller states—your own state?" If
ment that was drummed into our ears that the hon. member refers to the debates in
there could be no federation with the minor the South Australian Parliament, he will
states without this principle.
find that when Mr. Price was speaking,
Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear !
and that when that bon. member was
Mr.HIGGINS: At least I have achieved going off with the chariot of the sun in a
one success. I have achieved the distinc- dangerous way, saying that he could not
tion of eliciting the loudest cheers which see the use of a second house; that he did
have greeted any member of the Conven- not see why, in regard to federation more
tion, and I am glad to find the right hon. than anything else, we should have the
Premier of Tasmania leading the cheers, consent of the people given in two ways ;
notwithstanding his recent illness.
that he could not see why the interest of
Mr. WISE: The first demand for equal the masses of the people in Australia was
representation came from Victoria ! not solid ; that he could not see why the
Mr. HIGGINS: That shows the superior interests of the people in South Australia
intelligence of the Victorians. What I say were not the same as were the interests
is this : that you have in the more popu- of the people in New South Wales—when
lous colonies opinion strongly swinging the hon. member heard this, then, like
round as soon as they grasp the position; a good master of the hounds, he gave a
and, not only is it so there, but I have smart crack with his whip and brought
found from the debates in the South Aus- the stragglers to heel at once, using such
tralian Parliament-although I was told words as these : “But would you vote
in Adelaide that every one in South Aus- against the interests of the less populous
tralia was in favour of equal representa-
states ?" "Oh, no;" said the member, “I
tion—that even South Australia is coming an quite willing to accede to this in the
round to the same view.
interests of South Australia." Of course
Mr. SOLOMON: Only the enemies of the member felt that he had to face his
federation !
South Australian constituents, and that
An Hon. MEMBER: One swallow does any other course would be unpopular. I re-
not make a summer!
mark also that my hon. friend, Mr. Glynn,
Mr. HIGGINS: It is true that one who spoke in South Australia, sees also
swallow does not make a summer. At the very clearly, although he may vote in
262 Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
favour of equal representation—that all object of one party at the time of the
this outcry about state interests being the American Convention. The federation or
one matter in this federation is a mere binding together of the different states
sham, that it is merely one of the numer- for certain specific objects under which
ous devices which bave been evolved for the majority would rule was the object of
the purpose of persuading people here that the other party. But they could not agree.
they have different interests from people They felt, however, that the English guns
there, in order that the people may not be were at the gates, and that they could not
ablo by combination to show their power. afford to have one single state standing
Mr. GLYNX : I denounced making logic out. With great misgiving, therefore, they
the test of granting it!
adopted the compromise of having two
Mr. HIGGINS: I can see that the hon. houses--the house of a confederacy, and
member has grasped the position--that the other house, the house of a federation,
there is no danger to the states—that the where the majority would rule.
questions that will arise under this federal The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Does the
scheme are not so much questions between hon, member know of any federation which
the states. On the question of bankruptcy,
has not been a compromise?
for instance, how can there be a difference Mr. HIGGINS: Every federation is a
of interest between the states ?
compromise. That which is proposed by
Mr. WISE: Then there is no fear of a New South Wales is a compromise, and,
combination of the smaller states against as I think, a very reasonable compromise.
the big ones?
An Hon. MEMBER: It is unification !
Mr. HIGGINS: That is not the ques-
Mr. HIGGINS: It is not unification,
tion. I say that there is no fear of a com- it is federation.
bination. It is not a question of the fear An Hon. MEMBER : It is gormandising !
of a combination. You must put power
Mr. HIGGINS: It is & federation.
with the numbers.
There ought to be a unification on the sub-
Mr. WISE : That is what this bill does! jects which are federal, and a severance on
. Mr. HIGGINS: I do not see how the the subjects which are not federal.
hon, and learned member can say that this An Hon. MEMBER : But we do not want
bill puts the power with the numbers, when unification !
you have the representatives of 650,000 Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. member, Sir
persons in the three minor colonies, with John Downer, asked me to give him an
the power to outvote the representatives instance of a federation which is not a
of 2,500,000 in the bigger colonies. The compromise. I do not think I can do so.
position is this : we are invited to follow I am asking for a compromise in this in-
the precedent of the United States as stance which will give the smaller states
against the precedent which was afforded certain advantages in representation, which
us in Canada, in Switzerland, and in Ger- will not be based exactly upon proportional
many. We are invited to adopt that representation, but which will be a com-
which was a compromise between a con- promise of that kind. May I indicate this
federacy and a federation in place of adopt- to the hon. member £—that, starting with
ing a federation. I say distinctly that the United States, every new federation
the system in the United States was a created since has departed more and more
compromise between a confederacy and a from equal representation. The next feder-
federation. A confederacy, a loose bond ation created was that in Switzerland in
between the independent states, was the 1848. In that case, although you had
.
[Mr. Higgins.
Conimonwealth of
263
[9 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
sei se.
cantons historically distinct, different in may call different strata of people are ruled
religion, different in race, different in lan- by the majority upon different subjects.
guage, they gave themselves equal repre- The people are gradually coming to see
sentation, with few exceptions. Still there what a federation is, and I hope that in
were the exceptions. You had half can- forming our Australian federation we will
tons, which returned only one member as not take a step backward, such as is pro-
against other cantons returning two. The posed in this bill, by going back to the
action of Switzerland was largely influenced first real federation of modern times, the
by the historical difference between the can-
federation of the United States of America.
tons, and also by the analogy of the United I need hardly say that the consent of the
States. The nextof the federations was that states and the consent of the people will
of Canada. In Canada they started with not be realised by this proposal, if that is
twenty-four for Ontario, twenty-four for the true principle; because if you have
Quebec, and twenty-four for the maritime five states, and if there are six senators
provinces, which consisted of three pro- for each state, and if three states vote
vinces at first. As it now stands, Mani- with three members on each side, and the
toba has one, British Columbia one or two, other states vote four members against
and various other colonies which came in two, or five against one, I ask where then
have a mere fraction. It is much more of is the consent of the states ? That will be
a federation than the scheme proposed in simply the consentof one state to a measure.
this bill. After Canada came Germany, When you talk of this consentof thestates as
in 1870 or 1871. That federation was well as of the peopleit is simply arrant non-
based upon principles still further removed
You do not get the consent of the
from equal representation.
states. If you want to get the consent of
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: It was a the states as well as of the people you
federation of the lion and the lamb !
ought to insist that in the senate they
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. member's must vote by states, and then you can
colleague, Mr. Barton, said practically the understand what is being done. This is
same thing in Adelaide ; but it is not a simply one of those ingenious devices which
question of the lion and the lamb. How can we have to watch continually to prevent
that apply to a state like Bavaria, or a state the will of the people, as a mass, having
like Mecklenburg-Strelitz? Was Bavaria a its ordinary and proper effect. It has been
lion, or Mecklenburg-Strelitz a lamb? used as an argument that this system has
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: What about been a success in the United States, but it
Prussia ?
has not been a success there.
Mr. HIGGINS: Bavaria had six repre- Mr. SYMON: Why has it not been a
sentatives ; Mecklenburg-Strelitz, two ; success in the United States ?
Prussia, seventeen members; until you come
Mr. HIGGINS: I cannot answer every-
to the cities of Lubeck and others with one thing at once. I say that in the United
member, so that you will find a steady States the circumstances, historically and
gradation which is still more different from practically, are as different as possible from
the principle of equal representation. The
I say, first, that it has not been a
principle of equal representation proposed success in the United States. If you read
in this bill is a retrogressive proposal. the comments in the June number of the
The people are gradually coming to under- New England Magazine upon the system
stand better what a federation means-a of equal representation in the United
differentiation of subjects where what I States you will see the evil of its working.
ours.
264
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 Sept., 1897.]
me.
ness.
You will see how the arbitration treaty member is sore in regard to the Council in
with England was defeated by equal re- some way, but I do not know the Council
presentation. In that majority were found officially.
the representatives in the senate of what Mr. WISE : They would welcome the hon.
are called “rotten borough and sagebush member among them !
states.” A few rich men can control a Mr. HIGGINS : As an hon. friend
state with a small population much easier reminds me, it is the only Council in the
than they can control a state with a large Australian colonies that would welcome
population. If you look into the history If they did I should be exceedingly
of the United States you will see that the surprised.
great civil war was brought about by equal The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Only on
representation.
this question !
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : No! Mr. HIGGINS: However, I do not in-
Mr. HIGGINS : I am glad to see the
tend to be misled or led astray by discussing
hon. member so lively after his recent ill-
the virtues or vices of the Legislative Coun-
cil. I wish to keep the subject out of local
politics as far as I can.
Mr. MCMILLAN : The hon. member's re-
I do not care for
anything except the principles I find laich
marks are as good as a dose of medicine !
down in these speeches by strong federa-
Mr. HIGGINS: Some minds as well as
tionists in the Legislative Assembly of
bodies need medicine. I hope to administer New South Wales. There is also the fact
a useful dose of medicine to the hon. men-
that the circumstances are exceedingly
ber, Mr. McMillan, and myright hon.friend.
different. Historically, the United States
I hope they will not take it with wry faces.
were in such a terrible mess that they
I read a speech delivered by the hon. mem- could not afford to come to some agree-
ber, Mr. McMillan, in the Assembly, and
ment, no matter if it was a bad agree-
I understood from it that he had seen the
ment, and I freely confess that if I had
error of the principle I am speaking of. In
had the honor of taking a part in the
that speech he did not in the slightest way framing of that constitution I would have
attempt to combat the views put forward
taken it that the only patriotic course was
with such force by some gentlemen whom
to have accepted that constitution, faulty
I did not know until quite recently, such
as it was, under the circumstances. When
as Mr. A. B. Piddington, Mr. Millen, and
Delaware was saying, “Unless you con-
Mr. Ashton, who were mere names to me,
cede equal representation, we will make
but whose able statement of the case from
terms with the British," and when they
the point of view of the mass of the people felt that if the British had Delaware and
I admired exceedingly. There were others
the guns were at the gates of the other colo-
whose names I cannot recollect, but who
nies, this new federation would be ruined,
struck me as having seized the position I do not see what they had to do but to
better than most of us and most members
accept the inevitable, and take the equal
in our Assembly.
representation offered to them. But I am
Mr. WISE : The most democratic argu- thankful to say that we are in no such cir-
ments in favour of your view were used in cumstances.
. We have not to frame our
our Legislative Council !
constitution with the guns of the enemy at
Mr. HIGGINS: I am not going to be our gates. It will be remembered also that
led into the question of the virtues of the
in the United States they had not so many
Legislative Council. I understand the hon. subjects of general interest given to the
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
265
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill,
federation as are given here-subjects like
The Hon. E. BARTON : Has any conser-
the company law, bankruptcy. They had vative influence in the senate of America
the subject of patents given to them—six come by equality of representation ? Has
or seven subjects I remember which were it not come by the method of election ?
very leading subjects; but they had not a
Mr. HIGGINS : The senate, all Ameri-
number of other subjects, such as insur- can writers agree in saying, is becoming
ance, banking, the incorporation of banks,
more and more a house to represent the
company law
rich men and the trusts.
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : They
Mr. SYMON: That is the fault of the
did not know anything about that one
election !
hundred years ago!
Mr. HIGGINS: The reason is this: that
Mr. HIGGINS: Dirorce, and all that
in the less populous states one or two big
kind of thing. I ask where do states rights
silver men, for instance, can get whomso-
come in as to that? I hold that prima facie
ever they will elected. I do not mean to
the majority should rule on a subject which
say that the election by the parliaments
affects the whole people; and, if this sub-
of the different states does not also con-
ject affects the whole people, why should
tribute to that result.
not the whole people rule by majority ; for
Mr. SYMON: Some of the finest men are
you cannot get them all to agree? Where
from the smallest states !
do state rights come in in that? Because
there is a possibility of a state's interest
Mr. HIGGINS : I want to be perfectly
being affected in one out of ten thousand clear, but at the same time I say that the
subjects, you practically propose to give effect of equal representation in the senate
the less populous states equal voting power
was, if you look into it closely, one of the
as to the other nine thousand nine hun-
chief causes of that great civil war.
dred and ninety-nine subjects. Where is
Several HON. MEMBERS : No!
the logic of that? The experience of the Mr. HIGGINS: I do not wish to go
states of America shows that there are no into an historical discussion now, but I will
differences of interests arising between tell you very briefly how it occurred. As
states. There has never been a cause of soon as some of the states found that they
quarrel between the less populous and the could not get any other new state south
more populous states. What need, then, of Mason and Dixie's line, which would be
is there for a safeguard ? The people of a slave state; as soon as they found that
New South Wales are coming round to by the increase of the number of the states
the conclusion that this fallacy is merely to the west and the north, they were being
one of those numerous fallacies which are out-voted in the Senate ; as soon as they
put about ingeniously for the purpose of felt that they were no longer to have a
preventing liberal and radical legislation majority in that Senate to work in the
It will be seen that the more consents you interests of the slave states, the southern
require to legislation the less likely is that states put into practice the doctrine they
legislation to be enacted.
had long been preaching of the absolute
The Hon. H. DOBSON: No!
right of any state to secede. When
Mr. HIGGINS: The only consent that I Abraham Lincoln was elected they said
acknowledge in the case of legislation which 6 that election shows that those states will
is necessary is the consent of the people. I return senators which will outnumber our
do not acknowledge that the consent of the senators, and we shall have no protection,"
state has anything to do with it at all. and they at last determined to secede.
U
266
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Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
mind open,
open, and
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Did not the to make an improvement on the federal
stand of the Senate in that case bring constitutions of the United States, Switzer-
about righteousness in doing away with land, and Germany we are going back to
the slave trade?
the first form of federation which was sug-
Mr. HIGGINS: It is difficult for me gested. I think we should try to get for
to hear the hon. member.
Australia as good a constitution as we can.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Did not the No one now attempts to justify equal re-
Senate in that case do away with the slave presentation on principle. If there is any- .
trade, and, therefore, support the principle one who does so, I invite him, I challenge
of equal representation ?
him, to do so now.
Mr. HIGGINS: Even now I do not
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Is it necessary
hear the hon, member, and I think I had to show that two and two make four ?
better go on.
Mr. HIGGINS: If there is any hon.
Mr. WISE; The hon. member canrot member who can justify equal representa-
answer the question !
tion on principle I should be very glad to
Mr. HIGGINS : The great Civil War
learn of bin. I leave
my
in America was owing to equal representa- if I am convinced on principle that I am
tion, because the framers of the Constitu. wrong, I shall withdraw my call for a
tion had in view the stopping of the slave
division. The only principle upon which
trade and slavery, but they were not able to
this idea can be conceded or. proposed is
bring it about in due time, and gradually, that it is the only way to get federation.
in consequence of the slave states having The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: Hear,
equal representation in the Senate. As
hear !
soon as the southern states found that they Mr. HIGGINS: I am glad the Tas-
could not persuade Texas to be subdivided, manian Premier accedes to that.
and they hoped to be able to get in Texas The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : That
two slave states, then it was that they is not the only reason !
determined to secede.
'Mr. HIGGINS: Then there is some
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Then the principle behind it !
hon. member is regretting the abolition of Mr. WISE: Hear, hear! and a good one,
slavery?
too!
Mr. HIGGINS: I do not see the logic Mr. HIGGINS: I hope to hear what is
of that statement-it is not necessary for the principle behind it. I may state there
me to see logic in everything. I do not has been no attempt yet, in the Conven-
intend to labour this question, as it is
tion or elsewhere, to give us the reasons
simply the same audience as I had on the for it.
last occasion. As far as I am concerned The Hon. E. BARTON : Is not that
there will be a division, and even if we rather an assumption of infallibility on
have merely the same minority as we had
your part?
the last time, we can leave with confidence Mr. HIGGINS : I do not think so.
to others the determination of the question How is it an assumption for me to say I
of who was right. I have to thank hon. have been listening for reasons and I have
members for listening to me, and for ply-
not heard them? I have been listening
ing me with questions so courteously. I simply to find any justification, on prin-
can only say, in conclusion, that I feel ciple. The only thing approaching justi-
chagrined at the thought that in place of fication is, that without equal representa-
trying in our constitution for Australia, tion you will not have federation. I
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
267
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
even doubt very much whether, with equal down that cardinal principle without which
representation, you will have federation. he said federation could never exist, hë
I doubt very much whether you will admitted, in answer to my objection, that
have a federation amongst the minor states, federation was a compromise, could there-
and I doubt very much whether the larger fore proceed on no set logical principle;
populations of New South Wales and Vic- and, as a necessary result, I should think
toria will not refuse federation upon such would be impracticable and impossible. I
terms as those. Of course time will tell. think my hon. friend gave himself away
We are going back to the system in the in the line he took, for when you once
United States. We are going back disre- admit that the very essence of federation
garding experience—we are going back to is a compromise, away must go your logi-
equal representation in the senate. I take cal principle. And the hon. gentleman å
it that the circumstances of our geographi- lawyer, too! Really, I am almost ashamed:
cal position, of our history, of our objects, Fancy expecting to make a settlement be-
of our trade, are quite inconsistent with it, tween two people who are at arm's length
and I hope it will not be conceded.
with each other on logical principles. The
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South logical principle is give-and-take. The
Australia) [4.13]: I have listened with very hon. gentleman's logical principle is to
great pleasure to the interesting speech of take and not to give.
my hon. friend, because I know that
every
Mr. HIGGINS : What do I want to take?
word he said he meant. I believe the hon. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
member honestly meant every word he hon. gentleman wants the smaller colonies
uttered. Theaccentof conviction was in our to hand over to the larger colonies theii'
ears all the time he was speaking; but I had principal sources of revenue, their cus-
a painful feeling that his early education had toms, their post-offices, and to place á
been neglected. He made a most lament- child-like trust in the gentle way in which
able mess of “humpty dumpty." I thought they will be handled. He says that will
any reasonable man would know that, but be a constitution founded on the eternal
he stumbled over it. After having care- right of the majority to rule. That, he
fully prepared his speech, too, he at the says, is a compromise; and what a compro-
last moment forgot that which every good mise ! I really thought the time had
child ought to recollect. The hon. mem- passed for discussing this question of equal
ber begins with this illogical proposition-
representation in the senate. The hon.
and I interrupted him, not for the purpose gentleman referred to the case of America,
of bothering him in any way, but for the and he said it had not worked well. The
purpose of getting my mind informed. I hon. gentleman attributed all the troubles
said to him, “Is not federation, of neces- of America practically to the Senate. Even
sity, a compromise ?The hon. gentleman the war of slavery, the hon. gentleman
had been arguing that federation could seemed to think, came from the pernicious
only be established on strictly logical lines. influence which the Senate exercised. Has
Mr. HIGGINS : I did not say that! my hon. friend ever thought of this and
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The this was not mentioned at the Adelaide
hon. gentleman has certainly been arguing Convention that whatever difficulties. .
that the only test should be that the ma- there may have been in reforming the
jority of the people ought to rule. That was Senate in America, the inelasticity of the
the infallible and only test, democratic and constitution before and after that most
radical, which ought to apply. Having laid terrible war and loss of life, was brought
268 Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
about through the acts of the Senate. standing army--because that is what it
There was a retributive body in existence had become-flushed with victory, uncon-
immediately after the war -
querable, irresistible, the constitution was
Mr. Wise: And they amended the con- maintained, except in some particulars
stitution there!
which they very properly took means to
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: There redress. But in this, the crucial thing-
was a general with a conquering army, with
out of which all the mischief and harm
constitution and everything else at his had come—the result was a triumphant
feet, and amendments were made in the vindication of the constitution in the pub-
constitution. But at this time, with all lication by the victorious army, not that
the power to redress the grievous wrongs the Senate had brought about all the
they sustained through this unrighteous trouble, but that under their constitution :
body--the Senate—this army, brought into they would live or for their constitution
existence through the wrongs this body they would die. We there have argument
had created, and of course anxious to do from fact and experience such as my hon,
away with the existence of that which had friend here said we would have to refer to
produced the mischief, instead of interfer- on financial questions. Speculation, how-
ing with the Senate upheld it, and not a ever clever, must prove useless against the
suggestion or word was said, when they mighty experience obtained from those un-
had the power in their hands, of amending answerable facts. Now, my hon. friend
all these grievances, which my hor. friend's efers to Switzerland, and says that there
industry has found out since, and no one is not equal representation there. I say
has dreamt of remedying.
that, in effect, there is, and the Swiss Con-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The hon. mem- stitution was not established last century
ber must not forget that the one principle
-not established so very long ago. It was
in the American Constitution which is un-
established with the American Constitu-
alterable is that of equal representation !
tion before the Swiss people, with nearly
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If one hundred years' experience of its work-
the Senate brought about all the mischief ing. It was founded substantially upon
of the American war, it was bound to that, only with those alterations which dif-
stink in the nostrils of the successful army,
ferences in blood and country naturally
which had had to fight for the rights upon create, and in Switzerland there is, in effect,
which the Senate had been trespassing. equal representation.
Mr. Higgins : How could they alter it?
The Hon. E. BARTON: Forty-four repre-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Alter sentatives two from each canton !
it! They had the power of a conquering
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: There
army. If you want an argument from ex- are some little places—as afterwards we
perience more conclusive than all the clever may have some territories-in which this
speeches made by ingenious lawyers, or all rule may not be adopted, but the base
our thoughtful books written by clever principle of the Swiss Constitution was
essayists, long after the thing occurred equal representation in the Senate.
if
you want an answer to all that, there Mr. Synon: And there the Senate bas
it is. There was a wrong, you say.
, I
also a voice in the election of ministers --
say there was the power to redress it. The Hon. SirJ. W.DOWNER: Exactly.
Could we have a more triumphant vindica- Mr. SYMON : Which we do not ask for!
tion of the constitution of the American The Hon. J. H. HOWE: More powerful
Republic than the fact that, with a huge than ours !
!
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
269
[9 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
to us.
The Hon. SirJ. W.DOWNER: Whence in its incidence? We want to begin this
come these fears on the part of the larger constitution in trust and confidence, and
colonies ? Can they suppose for a moment we want the larger states to recognise that,
that, under this constitution, if adopted, the while we do not distrust them, we respect
senate of this commonwealth will bave any- ourselves, and when we are handing over
thing like the powers of the Senate of the to them the sources of our most material
American Commonwealth or the Senate of revenues, we take with us, at all events,
the Swiss Confederacy? The hon, member not, perhaps, the power of active legis-
knows they cannot. He knows that the
He knows that the lation, but the power of being able to say
principal reasons which give the American "No" to anything that would be disastrous
Senate their power--the control of foreign
In the course of time, I dare say, it
affairs, the power really of making peace or will turn out, as it has done in America, that
war, the control of all the civil offices- state rights will come very little into these
bring along with them of necessity a power matters, and the results will be highly satis-
which makes them a very effective cham- factory, because we shall know that we
ber. The same thing may be said to a
really have become so much one people that
less extent about the Senate under the these smaller considerations never occur to
Swiss Constitution. But under this con- anybody at all. I say that may be so. But
stitution what has the hon. member to fear? there is a greater chance of doing that
The majority must have in one house all if we begin on a righteous and fair
the charms and incantations-everything foundation, and if we recognise that this
which the larger states and larger popula- foundation is, after all, a compromise—fair
tions can afford will belong to them. The
terms to be made-to give powers to the
smaller states will have enough to hold whole acting as a whole, and yet to take
their own against them under any circum- care that the identity of the units shall be
stances. Besides, if this were not so, the in no way destroyed. If we take care of
conditions are so varying that a colony on
that, then we shall have a constitution
the top to-day may not be so high to-mor- founded on good feeling and righteous con-
Western Australia, notably, has sideration for each other, and we shall have
attained a higher position than we antici- some sort of guarantee that in the end it
pated at the time of the Convention of will work well, as I say unhesitatingly the
1891, and is likely to attain a greater
constitution has done not only in Switzer-
position. That is a notable instance star-
land but also in the United States of
ing us in the face. Are we going to assume
America. I did not intend to speak on
that the relations of the colonies are always this subject at all to day, and I do not
to remain the same, and that there need think that at the present stage of our busi-
be no fear? I say that wherever the large ness it is wise for anybody to make a long
population is, there will be the power. I speech, going exhaustively into this matter.
care not what state regulation you may I have just mentioned a few points of view
make; the will of the people will be supreme in reply to the hon. gentleman who ad-
whatever state rule you make to try to dressed us on this subject, and I am very
prevent it
pleased to know that he does not represent
An Hon. MEMBER : Why try to prevent the majority of the Victorian delegation.
it, then?
Mr. WISE: Nor of the Victorian people!
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Would The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: And
the hon. member make the constitution so much less the majority of the Victorian
elastic that it would be constantly varying people.
row.
270.
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
59 SEPT., 1897.1
The Hon. J. H.CARRUTHERS (New that the legislature here have looked at
South Wales) [4.27]: I hope that in this them, we shall be apt to take a more charit-
Convention there will be exhibited no feel- able view of their actions than if we merely
ing of impatience in the discussion of this look at them in the aspect which some
question, because, no matter what the de- hon. members affect, of being enemies of
cision may be, a good deal will depend on federation. I deny that these proposals
the' method and manner of arriving at that have been the outcome of a majority of
decision. I feel quite sure that the death- the enemies of federation. It is true that
blow to federal instinct in this colony we have in the legislature here, as in every
would be dealt in one act by this Conven- legislature, men who fear federation be-
tion at this juncture, if it were to reject a cause with federation their occupation
proposal of this character, and were to re- would be gone, and the position of a local
ject it in a manner that showed that the politician would be belittled. But we can-
Convention brooked no argument, and was not include in that class the whole of the
impatient of discussion. Hon. members members, or a majority of the members of
must not forget that the recommendation the legislature. Men of culture, of ability,
from the New South Wales legislature, so and of patriotism, who are not without
far as the popular assembly is concerned, influence if they go to the country and
was practically a unanimous recommencla- arouse public feeling upon the opinions
tion. There were only four hon. mem- which they liold, have supported this pro-
bers of the whole House who voted in position. It will be only trifling with the
favour of the system of equal representa- question if the members of the Convention
tion in the senate. A large and over- refuse to apply the best of their reason,
whelming majority of the members of the and the calmest and closest consideration
legislature were against that principle. In to it, even though it was decided in 1891,
the Legislative Council-despite that we and again this year in Adelaide, by a large
had the benefit of the presence there of the majority. The question has to be raked'
leader of the Convention and his hon, and up again, and let us have argument for
learned colleague, Mr. O'Connor, with all argument upon it, not any appeal to close
the weight of their influence, all their argu- the discussion because we have had enough
mentative power-by a very large major-
of it. To close the discussion in that way
ity the vote was against equal representa- may close federation. I speak as one who
tion.
anxiously desires, not only the passing of
The Hon. E. BARTON: It was pretty the bill, but the accomplishment of feder-
well against everything that I proposed ! ation, and as one who desires by every
The Hon. J. FI. CARRUTHERS : But means in his power to contribute some-
it is the greatest mistake for hon. mem- thing towards its accomplishment. We can
bers of this Convention, and especially better contribute towards it by paying due
those representing New South Wales, to deference to proposals which will meet the
attemptto flout the legislature, as the legis- objections, aye the prejudices, of those who
lature on some occasions has attempted to have ultimately to be invited to give their
flout the Convention. It is better to take assent to the measure which we frame. I
the most charitable view of the proceed- undertake to say, be the value of my
ings of the various houses of Parliament authority great or little, that so far as the
in their deliberations, and I say that if we colony of New South Wales is concerned,
put ourselves in the same point of atti- if a plebiscite were taken on the question
tude, and look at these matters in the way of equal representation there would be an
t
Commonwealth of
271
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
overwhelming majority in favour of it, as of Victoria and New South Wales, the
there would be in favour of federation. political aspirations of the people have been
Unfortunately we shall not have an oppor- directed to acquiring for themselves, not
tunity to take a test vote upon this particu- greater rights one over the other, but
lar question, though we shall have the op- equal rights as citizens of the same coun-
portunity of taking a test vote upon the bill try, so that they may have, not only man-
itself
, and it may endanger the passing of hood suffrage, but equal manhood suffrage.
the bill if we have the constitution so rigidly The leader of the Convention knows full
framed that, without granting proportional well that the measure which he was suc-
representation, we have no safety-valve for cessful in passing through its various stages
the expression of the ultimate rule of the in the Legislative Assembly of this colony,
will of the people. I say that it is unfor- and which gives us our present electoral
tunate that there can be no opportunity system, was the result not only of a
for testing the people upon this point. struggle for manhood suffrage in its widest
We may have this greater misfortune-we form, but of a struggle for equal manhood
may imperil the passing of the bill simply suffrage, so that we might have equal elec-
because we refuse to make a concession in torates, each man having one vote, and
this direction. I believe, much against the no vote in one electorate being of more
opinion of the majority of the politicians in weight than another vote in another elec-
New South Wales, and I want hon. mem- torate. The tendency of agitation and
bers to mark this.--that the prospects of reforın has been in this direction in all the
federation are brighter in New South Wales colonies. Now, we are asked to invite
than in almost any other colony. These the people of Australasia to agree, in
prospects cannot be jeopardised by the local accepting a constitution for their national
legislatures; but they can be jeopardised by life which is to break down all these state
the Convention itself. If we deal with the
If we deal with the instincts and provincial feeling, to give up
matter in a moderate way, if we exhibit con- that which they have been successfully
sideration towards the people of these colc- battling for for years and years past, and
nies who feel that it is not simply a ques- to adopt the retrograde stage of distin-
tion of state right but aquestion of manhood guishing between the voting power of vari-
right that is involved, we shall, when the ous individual members of the states. We
final test vote is taken, win over to our side may be able, if we insist upon having equal
thousands and thousands of voters, and state rights, and if with it we provide safety-
thereby help forward the consummation of valves which give to the people the ulti-
our great purpose. I largely object to argu- mate rule in the constitution, with the con-
ments based upon the precedents of the sequent divergent forces at the ballot, to
past. There has been no period in the his- get the people to agree to it; but I fear
tory of the world from which precedents
that in New South Wales it would be a
can be adduced on all-fours with the posi- hopeless task, even for men of intellect
tion of the Australasian colonies to-day. such as the leader of the Convention, the
Here we have a unique story of reform Premier, and others, to go to the country
gained by the people in the direction of with a bill in their hands conferring, not
manhood suffrage and equal political right. equal rights upon the citizens of Austral-
In America or in the old country no asia, but equal rights upon the states, and
such reforms have been wrung from the at the same time closing up every out-
ruling authorities. But here in every colony, let by which the popular will and the
and more especially in the two larger states popular opinion could be ingrafted upon
272
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
!
the statute-book of the commonwealth. The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS:
I say that the task is too large for the Hon. members know that those constitu-
ablest man in New South Wales to under- tions are not what they would be if made
take. I think that my hon. friends from by the will of the people to-day. The diffi-
Victoria would find that if they had that culty in the case of these other countries,
contract to undertake it would be a con- America especially, is that the people have
tract which might very well be postponed to live under the constitution, and make
until some future date. I think that the the best of it, knowing that it is impossible
amendments emanating from the Attor- for them, by the machinery in their power,
ney-General of Victoria, and other amend- to amend it. I want now to leave that
ments which have been suggested, go to aspect of the case, and in the calmest and
show that the provision of equal represen-
most reasonable fashion possible to invite
tation is accepted with great misgiving in
those who think that the discussion is one
Victoria, and that it will only be recom- worthy of being continued in the interests
mended by the politicians, and accepted of further light to those who are against
by the electors, when it is accompanied by the bill as it stands, to answer me on one
such safeguards as will ensure to the people or two points. In the first place why do
that what they are giving away with one the states desire equal representation ? Are
hand they will get back with the other. there any particular rights of the states as
· Mr. HIGGINS : They are accepting it
suchinvolved which can only be safeguardeck
against their convictions !
by granting this concession in the constitu-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I tion? Are there questions of so inseparably
have always had the feeling throughout
a state character that they cannot safely
the meetings of the Convention, that the be left to the opinions and the will of a
going back to precedents, not of ancient majority of the people of Australia ? And,
history, but even of modern times, has more than that, is this federation to be
been so much waste of time. Why go to
merely a union of the states of Australia
America and have the story told to us of according to artificial geographical lines
the building up of the constitution there, and boundaries, or is it to be that greater
and the causes which led to the establish- union which will bind the hearts of the
ment of a senate upon the basis of equal people together ? If we are going to ac-
state rights, and the story of the war and complish, as I hope we are, the greater
slavery, when we have had in the past union of the people, why limit and confine
few weeks the story of the conduct of the the people by a power of veto vested in the
Senate in refusing to ratify the arbitration states for some purposes which it is very
treaty with the mother country, undoubt- difficult to justify? I will take the three
edly against the popular will of the citizens great purposes under clause 52 of this bill
of the United States. Go to Germany,
for which the commonwealth is to be estab-
America, or Switzerland and you are not lished-for taxation, for defence, and, what
going to a country where the battle-cry of is to my mind one of the greatest of all pur-
reform for years and years past has been poses, the regulation of the inflow of popu-
in the direction of placing greater or equal
lation so as to secure a white Australia.
powers in the hands of the people them- The Hon. H. DOBSON : The hon. gentle-
selves.
man has just mentioned a state right.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Neither of those Queensland, for instance, could not possi-
countries possesses our form of responsible bly come in unless you had regard to her
government !
sugar plantations !
[The Hon. J. II. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
273
[9 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : We The Hon. H. DOBSON : Put the power,
will take the first of these three questions not in one chamber, but in the two cham-
-the question of raising revenue for the bers in the machine !
maintenance of the machinery of govern- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: The
ment, and for the defence of the common-
power of veto ?
wealth. Is that a state question ? Is not The Hon. H. DOBSON : Put it in the
the very incidence of taxation a question whole machine--not in one part of it !
which affects, not the states as such, but The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: We
the individual units that compose the have felt it in this colony. We know that
nation? We do not propose by this bill the power of veto is the power which,
that we should go to the states and levy a when exercised, will mould your laws.
contribution from each state as such; but The Hon. H. DOBSON: Is the man who
we propose to give to the commonwealth puts on the brake the man who guides the
parliament or government the power of train ?
levying its taxation directly upon the The Hon. J. H.CARRUTHERS: But
subject people.
the brake cannot be put on, the train cannot
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Then it is a state be put on, the whole machine cannot work,
question. If you have a modified tariff, in this case, without the concurrence of
Tasmania will not have enough revenue !
the two houses.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : My
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Hear, hear !
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: So
hon. friend imagines this to be a state
that if one house refuses to concur the
question. He will find that the taxes will
be collected, not from the state of Tas-
machine will not go; and if by any chance
mania, not from the state of New South
an alteration is made, before you can take
the brake off the train when once it is put
Wales, not from the state of Victoria, but
from the individual citizens of the com-
on, according to the constitution my hon.
monwealth.
friend desires, you have to get the concur-
rence of the second chamber. Their power
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Quite right; but
of veto comes in which prevents you from
it is a state question for all that !
reforming and amending your laws. You
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS :
may get a tariff at the beginning of feder-
And the citizens of Tasmania will
pay
the
ation which may meet the necessities of
same tax as the citizens of New South
the first few years
Wales will pay.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : If you do not-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Quite so ! if you do not have a tariff wbich gives us
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: That enough revenue to keep us solvent-Tas-
is to say, so far as taxation is concerned mania has a right to the veto !
and the force of its incidence, the Tas-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: In
manian will pay just as much as the New this question, right through the whole pro-
South Welshman. Then, I ask, what posal as to the tariff and the imposition of
necessity is there to secure the Tasmanian taxation, the state is to have the right of
by giving him in one chamber six or seven veto at all times, and that right of veto is
times the voting influence of the person tantamount to the power of legislation,
who is equally táxed with himself—the because the state will say, “You stand
New South Welshman? That is the aspect where you are.”
of the case as it presents itself to the tax- The Hon. H. DOBSON: What is the rightof
payers of this colony.
veto if we have two senators for Tasmania?
--
274
Austrcilia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: If felt in the more populous centres may not
two senators are all that Tasmania is en- be felt in those portions of Australasia
titled to on the score of population, then where the state bas not presented those
there is no reason to complain. But there attractions which would lead these unde-
is every reason to complain if Tasmania, sirable immigrants to flock to their shores.
being only entitled to two senators on the I think my hon. friend from Tasmania,
score of population, should be given four, Mr. Dobson, will admit that the state from
five, and six times the number she is en- which he comes has not felt to the same
titled to. There is ground of complaint extent as Victoria, or Queensland, or New
then on the part of the colonies with the South Wales the evils attending the influx
larger populations. I pass away from the of immigrants of a degrading character.
question of taxation, which is one affecting The Hon. H. DOBSON: I am not talk-
the individuals of the commonwealth, and ing of the evils. I say that immigration
take up the question of defence. The de- is a state right, which wants protection in
fence of the commonwealth will not be a the senate, in the interests of Queensland
matter to be borne by the states. We and of every other colony.
shall not ask Tasmania to make an equal The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: If
levy with New South Wales for the de- we could only limit state rights to the
fence of the commonwealth. The defence exercise of the power of veto in regard
of the commonwealth will have to be un- to laws affecting state interests, well and
dertaken by the individual citizens, and good; but the misfortune of it is that state
the states which have the larger popula- rights go further than that. It is proposed
tions will contribute the larger amount of that there shall be a power on the part of
money and the greater number of men, in the smaller states to impose on the large
proportion to their meansąnd their numbers, states, wbich hold a different view, legisla-
towards the defence of the commonwealth. tion, taxation, and, practically, administra-
Let me take another point: the very import- tion, which is against the will and wishes
ant question of immigration. We may find of a majority of the people.
an instruction to the representatives of Vic- Mr. WISE : The hon, member wants to
toria and the representatives of New South take power to impose the will of the big
Wales in the house of representatives to states upon them !
pass a bill to prevent the invasion of un- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: My
desirable aliens. That bill may pass in the
hon. friend, Mr. Wise, who, unfortunately,
House which represents the public voice has not had an opportunity of being pre-
of Australia. In the senate it may be pos- sent at the debates in our Parliament, does
sible for the representatives of the three not know the strength of the feeling there
swall states, who do not represent more upon this question. The hon. member
than practically a third or a fourth of the thinks very strongly with myself, I know,
population of Australia, to exercise the that there should be an adequate safety-
power of veto.
What happens ? By the valve in the constitution, so that the will
exercise of the power of veto they throw of a majority of the people, when found to
open the port of Melbourne and the port be in conflict with the will of the state
of Sydney to the influx of men who may representatives, shall have some opportu-
degrade our manhood and our womanhood, nity of finding expression upon the statute-
and reduce the population to a lower level book. But we have no warrant for as-
than we have everknown before. I mention suming that any provision of that character
these things. as possible. The difficulties will be acceptable to this Convention.
1
The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
275.
[9 SEPT., 18971
Australia Bill..
The amendments suggested by the various dangerous provision for us to ingraft upon
colonies go to show the trend of the feeling the constitution. It would be imposing
which will probably guide delegates here, on the people of the commonwealth under
and we have, I fear, very little reason to a hard-and-fast rule, the provision that
hope that there will be proposed amend- there shall be an overwhelming majority
ments of such a character as will allow of the manhood of Australia in favour of.
those of us who are more anxious to see a certain reform, and, at the same time,
a constitution passed into law than are having a constitution of such an unbend-
sone of those who are opposing it in the ing character that the reform cannot be
various parliaments, to see our wish accom- accomplished. We know sufficient of the
plished. I think there is very little hope tendency of our race to know that they
of the carrying of any of those amend- will not brook the withholding of reforms
ments which the hon. and learned mem- by reason of any rigidity in the consti-,
ber and myself desire. I was one of those tution. We have always expressed our
who, in Adelaide, indicated that they were admiration for the British Constitution be-
prepared to vote for equal representation cause it has been of sich a character that
in the senate, providing there were a power it has adapted itself at all times to the
of dissolution of the senate, and, with it, circumstances of the people and to their
the power of referring to the people them- growing aspirations. The amendments of
selves those questions -- mainly questions one branch of the legislature in this colony
of social reform, questions such as that of have been largely fashioned as they have
immigration, questions which are likely to been simply because we have learned to
provoke a deadlock between the senate regard with veneration and esteem that
and the house of representatives. I have model
upon which our own constitution is
not changed my views upon that point. founded—the British Constitution. There
I know that, to be logical, I should at all was, and there is, I admit, a desire here
times be found voting with the hon. mem- and it is not absent from the Convention
ber, Mr. Higgins. I do not intend to de- itself to have a constitution so framed
part from the view I expressed in Adelaide that there will be power to bend, and
until a safety-valve is provided. I intend not of necessity to break—so framed that
at all times to vote for that which will there will at all times be an opportunity
operate in that direction, namely, the pro- for the will of the people to find expres-
portional representation of the people in sion upon the statute-book. Now, I leave
both chambers. If, in any scheme which it to those who are in favour of the bill
is proposed, either of the suggestions as it now stands to answer some of the
thrown out by me in Adelaide
objections which have appealed to the
of them was proposed by my hon. friend, people of this colony; the objection, for
Mr. Wise, himself — are contained, I instance, that state rights are not so radic-
shall be willing to accept, upon that con- ally involved in this bill as to necessitate
dition, equal representation. But to say the people's rights being over-ridden; the
that you trust a minority of the people objection that the rule of the people by
in a state to deal out rough-and-ready jus- the states is not such an ultimate necessity
tice in Australia, with this one proviso- as to render it inevitable that the rule of
that when it is found that the will of a the people should give way at all times,
minority in the senate is thwarting the To answer these objections is the task
will of a majority of the people, the mi- which we have set to ourselves in this
nority should give way, would be a most colony, and those members of this con-
one
276
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
vention who are in favour of the accom- amount of justice will be conceded to those
plishment of federation must answer them who, in the performance of a parliamentary
in a direction which will carry conviction duty, have made those suggestions to the
to the minds of our people. I would say, Convention. I would only like to add
in conclusion, that so far as the amend- this : that I believe that the amendments
ments in this bill, which have emanated will be considered in that spirit. I hope
from our local Parliament, are concerned, I that in the course of the debates there
regretto hear my hon. colleague, Mr. Wise, will be a curbing of any expression of a
intimate that they are amendments of the desire not to accept them, or .to exhibit
enemies of the bill.
impatience concerning them, because they
Mr. WISE : I referred to the amend- are the suggestions of a minority. I hope
ments of the Legislative Council ; I did that there will be some regard for the
not refer to the amendments of the Legis- difficulties which the minority have had to
lative Assembly !
face, and that every assistance will be
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : I afforded by the use of those arguments
regret to hear that stated, because the which have carried conviction so many
amendments of the Legislative Council times to the minds of a majority of the
were practically word for word the amend- members of this Convention.
ments of the Legislative Assembly,
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) (5] :
Mr. WISE : Then I will say the same From the trend of the arguments up to
thing of the amendments of the Legis- the present of those who oppose the prin-
lative Assembly!
ciple of equal representation, I think I am
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: A justified in concluding that the chief ground
charge of that character hurled forth in of their attack is from the point of pure
this colony is calculated not to allay those principle and logic; in fact they apply the
feelings of excitement and animosity which syllogistic method to the question of equal
have been raised, but to call forth bitter- representation. According to the trend
ness in the accomplishment of a purpose
of the argument of Mr. Higgins, equal re-
in which the greatest amount of tact and presentation is unjust in principle, and
good judgment is necessary. I sat here
dangerous in its tendency in a country
in this Chamber during the whole course
where there are various states having a ratio
of the debates upon this bill, and I can
of population varying from one to three,
tell hon, menubers that while many of the
five, or six. I would remind lon. mem-
bers that the moment you begin to apply
speeches were extravagant, when we came
logic to politics, the moment you attempt
down to the question of amendments, the
to test constitutional or economic axioms
extravagance disappeared, and we had ex-
or principles by the syllogistic method,
pressed in a concrete form the reasonable
you strike at the underlying and essential
demands of those who represented the people conditions of political organisations and
of this colony. If we do not approach the
the relations of communities. Apply such
consideration of those reasonable demands
a test to that combination of compromises
in a reasonable way, we are not smoothing
and contradictions called the British Con-
the way of federation, but we are making stitution. There is not a single principle,
it more difficult of accomplishment. I hope power, or tenet contained in or suggested by
that the utmost generosity will be extended that combination of contradictions known
to the consideration of the suggested amend- as the British Constitution that can stand
ments, or if we have not the utmost gener- the strictly logical test. Take the power
osity extended, I hope that the fullest of the prerogative of the Crown. To push
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
277
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
it to the extent to which it is recognised Mr. GLYNN: I differ from the hon.
would be inimical to popular liberty. The member. I say it is a mixed principle in its
power of the Lords, the necessary corollary organisation and a unification in its powers.
of their recognition as an estate, cannot In its essence it is a consolidation for all
be justified, because it would be inconsis- purposes. But, notwithstanding that admis-
tent with the principle of popular supre- sion, taking a strictly consistent position,
macy. That very principle of popular su- I still say co-equal representation of the
premacy, embodied in the Commons, can- states is justified as a matter of expediency
not be pushed to its extreme limit, because and common-sense. The position I take,
to do so would be to sweep out of the con- as a matter of principle, is this : that equal
stitution as not merely useless but obstruc- representation is justified in the case of a
tive to the growth and play of popular power, confederation. It is not at all justified in
the other estates of the realm. There is nota the case of a consolidation, but it is justi-
single principle, tenet, or power in the liter- fiable in the case of a federation, which is
ature of constitutional relations that, con- a consolidation having superimposed upon
sidered merely apart from its objects and it the check of an upper house with equal
application, can survive analysis or be justi- representation. Wby? Because you can-
fied on grounds of abstract right. Nor, sir, not bring about a large consolidation of
is there a single constitutional principle peoples, all diverse in character, preju-
that can be successfully brought to, as far dices, and institutions, or a consolidation
as mere logic is concerned, the final test of applicable to a very large geographical area
all—the test of pushing its exercise to its so as to preserve interests that have local
extreme limits. In the evolution of popu- colour. The day of small states has gone
lar liberty, power has been rather curbed by. Small states succeeded in the old
than abrogated; the abuse, not the exist- world ; but we know that states which are
ence, has been on the whole condemned ; to succeed must be large ones, and, if we
contradictions have been reconciled by are to become an important nation, domi-
moderation ; and a resultant progress has nating affairs in the east, we must become
sprung from that combination and opposi- a large state. The only states which can
tion of claims and interests, that action and succeed according to the analogy of Europe
counteraction which, in the words of Burke, are large states. For instance, there is
“from the reciprocal struggle of discord- the power of Russia, which is colossal,
ant powers draws out the harmony of the and overshadows the higher civilisations
Universe." We must, therefore, approach of the smaller political organisations on
the consideration of this question with the western side of Europe. What does
minds clear of the cant and prejudices of Mr. Seeley tell us? He points out that
pedants, and not seek for mathematical the ideal principle, the principle of the
accuracy in a sphere where it is never future, is extension, is that the larger
likely to be known. The hon. member, states must dominate. He says the small
Mr. Higgins, seems to think you must states only succeeded when they were small
judge this question simply from the con- states among small states. Athens fell as
solidation standpoint, and apply the prin- soon as Macedonia arose. We are endea-
ciple of proportional representation to a vouring to build up a large state, a strong
federation as well as to a consolidation. state, which will have by its magnitude
Mr. HIGGINS : No; I said that the true some power to offer against possible aggres-
principle was consolidation for certain pur- sion from the young giants in the north
poses and severance for other purposes ! and the east--from Japan, wbich, in 1906,
278
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
We are
will have an addition to its navy measured Lords must go down as soon as there is an
by an expenditure of £24,000,000. Then
emphatic protest made by the Commons
we have China, which has been slumbering The very same thing will occur here ; it
for 2,000 years, but which, breaking the has occurred in America. The popular
cake of its inertia, is now awakening to voice will eventually be heard, and my
activity. That is a power which must be- hon. friend's fears are utterly unsubstan-
come enormous as soon as the industries of
tial as to the possible coercion by the
the west are applied to it. We have both smaller states of the states which ought.
these powers overshadowing us.
to dominate on the principle of gradual
in such a position that we must have a proportional representation. I will give
large state, and the only organisation pos- out in one sentence what I take to be the
sible is the federal organisation, which, as distinction as regards this larger consolida-
far as legislation is concerned, is unifica- tion with the anomalous principle of equal
tion. But, inasmuch as consolidation may representation in one house. Speaking
result in inequality so far as local interests generally, in an ordinary consolidation the
are concerned, we must provide some safe- principle of proportional representation is
guard against their neglect. That has been departed from to an extent necessitated by
shown in the case of Ireland. Inasmuch the existence of interests not necessarily
as she has interests with a certain local dependent on population, and the greater
colour, although-the lines of cleavage are the geographical area, and the more difer-
not finely drawn, ber interests have been ent the conditions of the people covered
neglected. It is, therefore, necessary to
by a consolidation, the greater is the ex-
have this anomalous principle of equal pediency, if not the necessity, for a depar-
representation in an upper house somewhat ture from the principle of representation in
emasculated in its powers.
proportion to population. Again, I would
Mr. HIGGINS : If there were a federa- tell the hon. member that we are asked
tion of England, Scotland, and Ireland, to go into a partnership, and we can dic-
you would not need to have equal repre- tate our own terms with states that have
sentation there!
enjoyed this freedom up to the present.
Mr. GLYNN:I say that history has The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
shown us that we ought to have had equal tate your own terms is rather an un-
representation in that case. It is the only fortunate expression!
safeguard against local interests being ne- Mr. GLYNN: Perhaps the right hon.
glected owing to the enormous disparity of member is perfectly right; one is too em-
local representation in the popular house. phatic sometimes. This fact is undoubt-
An Hon. MEMBER : Ought not the ma- edly before us: We are asked to go into a
jority to rule under any constitution ? partnership, and these are the terms on
Mr. GLYNN: Must not the majority
which we will go in.
rule in the popular house? Do you mean
Mr. HIGGINS :
to say that the British Constitution could Mr. GLYNN: Does not the hon. mem-
ever be worked unless on that understand- ber know that I voted with him when he
ing? Do you mean to tell me that if the was in a minority of three ?
theoretical power of absolutely vetoing Mr. HIGGINS: Not on this point, though!
legislation by the House of Lords was Mr. GLYNN: I know that the hon.
ever exercised it would not destroy popu- member takes a very strong view on this
lar liberty, and will the hon. member say point. States like ours, which are asked
that there is the least danger of that? The · to go into a federation, are very largely
1
- Dic-
!
Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
279
[9 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
imbued with the confederal idea, chimeri-
Council and the Parliament of the cus-
cal though it may be, as regards the effect toms union. In the Federal Council there
of it, if fixed in the federation; that is, was the principle of unequal representa-
they are very largely imbued with the tion kept up, or, as we call it, proportional
principle or the notion of state rights and representation. When Germany did come
will not come in under any other condi- to a real federation in 1871, the historic
tions. The hon, member referred, I think, º prejudices made for proportional represen-
to the case of the confederation of Ger- tation in the upper house, rather than
many, and he sought to discount the argu- against it. Therefore, any analogy from
ment which had been urged in furtherance that point of view, at all events, is not
of the principle of equal representation by applicable to the case before us. From
pointing to the analogy of Germany, where the point of view of the dangers of granting
equal representation was not granted. equal representation, these dangers bave
From the point of view of historical pre- never risen, with the exception of the im-
judice, I may say that in Germany they aginary case of slavery and the Civil War.
have had proportional representation in There is no case in the whole compass of
the second house even from 1815.
American history which the hon. member
Mr. HIGGINS : There was no federation can cite, where, through the granting of
until 1870 !
equal representation, there has been pres-
Mr. GLYNN: There was an advanced sure brought to bear on the larger states
form of confederation. The arrangement by the smaller states.
brought about by the Peace of Vienna, al- Mr. HIGGINS : Would there be danger
though it was called a confederation, was in granting proportional representation ?
not, in the strict sense of the word, a con- Mr. GLYNN: Undoubtedly I think
federation, such as the confederation which there would be, because you would always
was formed in America in 1777. The ar- have in the lower house a majority com-
rangement amongst the North German posed principally of large states, and there-
states from 1815 to 1867 was a sort of federa- fore you would bave the possibility of
tion, not as perfect as the one into which special interests of particular localities,
they were forced in 1871, but, nevertheless,
affected to some extent by a local colour
one in which there was unequal representa- being neglected or overshadowed. Assum-
tion in the upper house, or, as we call it, ing that there is not much danger on either
theprinciple of proportional representation.
side, I submit that history has shown us
In 1867 we had the North German Con-
that you have not had oppression from the
federation started on a new basis, and still
principle of equal representation, but you
have had neglect through the absence of it.
they kept up the principle of giving Prussia
Mr. HIGGINS : Would you say that the
seventeen members against a smaller num-
ber for Bavaria, and they grouped several
people of Bourke ought to have the same
voice as the people of Sydney?
of the other states in the Federal Council,
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. member again
which was one of the bodies of the parlia-
falls back on the logical basis for the jus-
ment of Confederation of North Germany. tification of his position.
Concurrent with that parliament there was Mr. HIGGINS : I must fall back on good
the customs union of Germany, which dealt logic as against bad logic!
very largely with some of the financial Mr. GLYNN : Yes, when your out-
matters which we are delegating to our works are carried. We cannot apply strictly
parliament. This union was composed mathematical tests in politics. We are not
of two houses; there were the Federal dealing with the symbols of mathematics.
ננס
280
Australiu Bill.
Commonwealth of
[9 SEPT., 1897.1
1
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Nor with the Mr. GLYNN: And that is what will
abstract entities of states !
occur here!
Mr. GLYNN: I quite agree with the
An HON. MEMBER: And the better for
hon. and learned member. I never took the large states !
the position which has been assumed by
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. member has
many of the advocates of equal represen-
referred to some cases of disparity. I
tation of sticking up this imaginary state
will give some cases of disparity of repre-
entity. Where is the state entity? There sentation. I will tell the hon. member
are state interests which merge into the
that the principle of proportional repre-
consolidation interests; but where in a sentation is not even approximately applied
federation are these so-called state entities? in these consolidations. Take, for instance,
They do not exist except on paper. If you
the German Empire. Out of fifty-eight
look at the thirty-seven matters delegated members there are seventeen members
in this bill to the federal parliament, there
for Prussia. On a strict population basis
is no single one which can be put down as Prussia ought to have thirty-six members.
a confederal matter; but there are very
Mr. HIGGINS : That shows that the lion
many of them which have very large local does not absolutely swallow the lamb!
colourings or tendencies, being of more Mr. GLYNN: We will leave the swal-
importance, but not of exclusive import- lowing alone at present, as I am rather en-
ance, in ono state than in another.
gaged in giving out. Prussia has one repre-
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. member is sentative in the lower house for 1,800,000
coming round to our side!
of its population, while Schaurnburg-Lippe
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. member need has one representative for 37,000 of its
not have the slightest fear of my coming population. There, again, the consolidation
round. I took this stand at the begin- idea is not with mathametical accuracy
ning, and I take it now. I am endea- applied.
vouring, if he will pardon the paradox, by Mr. HIGGINS : I never urged that it
logic to show that logic does not apply. should be !
America has further shown us that they
Mr. GLYNN: To show how poor this
work under this principle both houses on German analogy is—and I think it has
a consolidation basis. Do we not know been suggested by the hon. and learned
from Foster that up to 1828 the old con-
member, Mr. Symon, that Prussia prac-
federal idea was very potent in America, tically forced in the smaller states—what
that when the so-called tariff of abomina-
do
you find in the preamble to the German
tions was introduced in 1828, the Senate
federation? Why, the smaller states are
absolutely stated that they opposed that not even mentioned. They talk about an
tariff because their states told them that intended partnership between certain states,
they must do so, as they were delegates,
and they do not raise them even to the
but that their convictions would bave led dignity of mentioning that they are parties
them to the opposite opinion? Since then
to the Constitution. This is the preamble
we know they have gone in for the consoli-
to the Constitution :
dation idea, and that small states vote with
The kings of Prussia, Bavaria, Wurtemburg,
the grand dukes of Baden and Hesse conclude
large states, and so on. There is a general
an eternal alliance for the protection of the ter-
mixture with the lines not taking their ritory of the confederation, as well as for the
directions according to the large or the promotion and welfare of the German people.
small states.
They do not even mention the smaller
Mr. Higgins : They vote now!
states. Further, I may state, to show there
$
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of [9 SEPT., 1897.] Australice Bill.
281
is no application of the analogy to that regard to Switzerland, we have in Switzer-
case, that in Prussia they vote by delega- land, Berne, with a population of 536,000;
tions. Though she has seventeen repre- Zug, with a population of 23,000; and Uri,
sentatives, they vote in a block, though I with a population of 17,284-cach of which
think all votes count, which discounts the have only two members. Where is the
effect of their higher representation. Again, population basis there? Sir John Downer
in a matter where a particular delegation has excellently pointed out what occurred
is not directly interested, that delegation in America—that where they had the
cannot vote. Therefore, we see with what opportunity of amending the constitution
safeguards the principle of proportional re- they did not amend it. I would go further
presentation is surrounded in the second and
say that the very revolting states made
house. What we say is : “Go one better equal representation in the second house
than that; give the principle of equal re-
the basis of their proposals. The very
presentation in the second house, and you
states alleged to be over-swayed by this
will have a perfect safeguard to the appli- principle said : “We will establish a new
cation of the principle of population in the
constitution and put that principle in it."
lower house," because, with communities Mr. HIGGINS :
like these, growing to enormous propor- Mr. GLYNN : Do you mean to tell me
tions hereafter, you may otherwise have than in the face of substantial dangers,
the smaller states completely overshadowed which resulted in a revolution, in this des-
by the larger states.
perate war-do you mean to tell me that,
An Hon. MEMBER :
simply for the sake of a paper principle,
Mr. GLYNN: Of course, that points to or consistency with precedent, they would
the domination of Prussia—that Prussia kecp up this dangerous principle of equal
forced them in, and said, “We are a mili- representation in the Upper House if they
tary power; we are the people who beat had not a substantial advantage ? Men are
Austria, and who carried to a successful not fools; they are not theorists. Soldiers,
conclusion the war against France.” Prus- especially, are not men who are not likely
sia absolutely dictated the terms upon
to be called theorists. If they have to con-
which the smaller states should come in, tend for anything at all, it is for the dog-
those smaller states having, in 1867, refused matism of practical politicians. The feder-
to come in. Again, as regards Prussia, it
ated states of America went one step further
occurs to my mind that Prussia's larger than that, because they gave the power of
proportion of representation is partly the amending money bills to the dangerous
result of an aggregation of states. Prussia house-a power which I would not give
has been added to by several states being them. Every clause of the constitution, I
attached to her. The very fact that believe, has been recast on the principle of
Prussia and some of the larger states ap-
allowing equal powers to the upper and
pear in the preamble, and that some of the lower houses; therefore there cannot be
smaller states are excluded altogether; the
much danger in this bogy of the upper
very fact that Prussia at the time was house. I have trespassed upon the patience
the successful power, and that the smaller of the Convention in favour of what is prob-
states came in, having in the past refused ably a foregone conclusion. I have done so,
to come in—the very fact that the Prussian because, as Mr. Carruthers suggested, it is
delegation has the final voice whenever well to show that the principle of equality
there was a tie, shows that Prussia in- can be supported by something more than
tended to, and must rule. It also shows the vote of a majority; that its strength lies
that the military despotism of Prussia dic- notin historicprejudices and numbers alone,
tated the terms of this constitution. With but as well in considerations of expediency
X
282
Personal Explanation.
Return.
[9 SEPT., 1897.
1
a.m,
and reason; that it has the recommenda- FRIDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
tion of precedent and experience, of theo-
retical recognition and practical success; Personal Explanation-Correction of Speeches-Common-
that it is the essential difference of the
wealth of Australia Bill-Papers.
federal idea, a concession to the sense of
nationality and the fear of subordination; The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30
and that without it you have unification
under conditions that ensure its failure, or
PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
federation without an element that is a Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) (10.31] : I
guarantee of its success.
You will never should like to make a short personal ex-
get states in whom the sense and pride of planation. I find that in this morning's
independence is strong to enter without the
newspapers there are several statements
pressure of some great emergency into a attributed to me which I did not make
union that must extinguish their individu- yesterday, and the like of which I did not
alities. No vague consideration of material make, and I feel it of importance that I
benefits can stand for an hour against the should put myself right at this early stage
pride of separate life; can outweigh the of our proceedings. For instance, I am
love of personal identity, the prestige of reported as having opened my speech by
nationality, that prejudice which is the in- saying that I advocated proportional re-
spiration of all patriotism, and to which
presentation from the same motive as actu-
what is best in a nation's records is so
ated the Legislative Council of New South
largely due. The recognition of this feeling Wales. Of course that gives point to an
is a prime condition of our union, and can interjection of the hon. and learned mem-
be made without the least substantial
ber, Mr. Wise, that the Legislative Council
danger to the real interests of the larger of New South Wales voted for the propor-
states.
tional representation with a view to de-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
stroy federation. I think hon. members
Wales) [5.29]: I do not think it would be
will recognise that I did not say what is
a wise thing to obtain any division on this
attributed to me in this connection, nor
clause to-night. The discussion which has
anything like it. Of course I am referring
taken place since we sat in Adelaide has
now to the reports of speeches appearing
been so keen that the Convention owes it,
in the newspapers, not to what appears in
in reason to those who have expressed their
the leaders or in the crisp and clever
opinions in one direction or another, to
deal with this matter in a deliberate way.
articles giving an account of our proceed-
Therefore, I would propose that we report ings. To them I make no objection, be-
cause I think that we are only fair game
progress and ask leave to sit again.
for criticism. I am also referred to as
Progress reported.
having, said that the southern states of
RETURN
America revolted because of equal repre-
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER laid
upon
the sentation. I did not say that, or any-
table a return-made on motion by the thing like it, though attributing such re-
hon. and learned member, Dr. Quick- marks to me gives point to the statement
showing the population and number of
of Mr. Glynn as to why the states of the
electors in each electoral district for the
south adopted equal representation. I
Legislative Assembly of New South Wales.
refer to these matters, because I feel that,
Ordered: That the document be printed. as the public only get information of what
Convention adjourned at 5.31 p.m.
takes place here through the newspapers,
[Mr. Glynn.
Correction of Speeches.
283
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Commonwealth Bill.
-in my own interést, and in the interests of inaccuracy is found in the proof copy of
other members of the Convention, such the Debates now issued the member com-
grave misstatements -
plaining can have it rectified by directing
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : I sub- the attention of the Principal Shorthand-
mit that the hon. member is now going writer to the matter.
considerably beyond a personal explana- Mr. SYMON (South Australia)[10.35]:
tion !
Probably the practice to which the hon.
Mr. HIGGINS : Well, I have said all that member, Sir Joseph Abbott, refers has
I want to say !
arisen from the fact that the Hansard
The PRESIDENT : I allowed the repre-
reporting in this colony is positively admir-
sentative of Victoria the same latitude able.
that I allowed on a previous occasion to The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
another hon. member; but I would invite There were a good many errors in my
hon. members to consider whether personal speech !
explanations ought not to be confined to The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The right
matters which occur in this House, and hon. member sits right under the Hansard
that misrepresentations and mistakes in gallery!
the press open rather too fertile a source Mr. SYMON: Yes; the right hon.
of discussion.
gentleman ought to come over to this side
of the chamber. I only wish to pay my
CORRECTION OF SPEECHES.
slight tribute to the fact that the official
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST report here approaches as near perfection
(Western Australia) [10-33] : I should as a work of that kind can do.
like to draw attention to the fact that no The PRESIDENT : I have no doubt that
proofs of the speeches made by me has we all desire that in connection with an
ever reached me. Certainly in the report important gathering such as this every
of debates which has been issued there is
facility should be offered to representatives
no room to make corrections, unless we for the correction of their speeches, and no
tear out the pages or have a double set. doubt arrangements will be made for the
It seems to me that the course of sending acceptance of any corrections which hon.
proofs for correction hitherto adopted would members desire to make.
be a very desirable one to continue, other-
wise I expect that no corrections will be COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
made.
In Committee :
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New Clause 9 (The Senate).
South Wales) [10:34]: I should like to Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
.say with regard to the official report of
and Assembly of New South Wales :
speeches that the practice in this colony
Paragraph 1. Omit "six senators for each
state, and each senator shall have one vote."
has always been to issue a proof copy
Insert "members representing the states in pro-
of the Debates to members. If anything portion to their population. But no state shall
wrong is found in this proof copy the
have less than three senators. The senate shall
member complaining has the right to go
consist of not less than forty members."
to the Principal Shorthand-writer and Question-That the words "six senators
have it rectified. With our Hansard staff
foreach state” be omitted—again proposed.
we have never adopted the practice of The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
submitting proofs of speeches to members (South Australia)[10:36]: I have no doubt
for the purpose of correction. If any. that if the amendment were immediately
284
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(10 SEPT., 1897.]
put to the vote it would be rejected. At recollect that my first duty is not simply
the same time I think that it involves, to the state which I have the honor to re-
without doubt, the most important ques- present, but to the nation which is to be.
tion that we have to consider, and I agree I think that on a previous occasion some
with the representative of New South of us, honestly differing from the views of
Wales, Mr. Carruthers, in deprecating any. our colleagues, gave proof that we were
thing in the shape of undue haste. The prepared to separate ourselyes from our
financial question in its details may be colleagues in the representation of a par-
more troublesome, but it does not involve ticular state to secure what we believed
so great a principle as is involved in the to be the interests of Australia at large. If
amendment. Further, whilst it has been the occasion arose for similar action here
said that we ought to treat the amend- we should not be found to hesitate to adopt
ments of the various legislatures with it. Imight say, incidentally, that I intend to
great respect, this ainencment, by reason adhere to the vote which I gave in connec-
of its origin, is entitled to the very tion with the limitation of the financial
greatest respect. It is presented to us with
powers of the senate.
At the same time,
the indorsement of an overwhelming ma- I shall not be found recording my vote in
jority-I might almost say that it was favour of the amendinent which is now
practically carried unanimously-of the proposed. I am addressing myself more
popular assembly of New South Wales, a particularly to the amendment suggested
body which has the right to claim to re- by the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, which
present more than 1,250,000 of the people is to dispense with the equality of repre-
of Australia, which is more than one-third sentation of the different states in the
of the number of people who will be asso. senate and to provide for the recognition
ciated in the federation if our present pro- of extra population by increased represen-
posals are carried out. I think our thanks are tation. I am much concerned with justi-
due to the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, for fying myself in this connection as regards
the lucidity, the courage, and the excellent the vote which I intend to give ; and I
temper with which he presented his aspect propose to state a few of the reasons for
of the case to a somewhat adverse house, the faith which is in me and which impels
and I think also that we should not lose me in the action I take to-day. Firstly,
sight of the fact that not only has an I put it that no federation of the larger
amendment of this sort found practically and smaller states is possible within a
unanimous support in the Assembly of measurable distance unless you provide for
New South Wales; but it has received equal representation of all in the senate.
very substantial indorsement at the hands There is no room for doubt upon that
of a considerable proportion, though not a point. I shall be told-in fact we have
majority, of the Assembly of Victoria. been told - by my friend, Mr. Higgins,
Under these circumstances it seems to me that that is not a logical reason for oppos-
that it is important, if we are to negative ing his amendment.
the amendment--as I hope we shall—that Mr. SYMON: It is an effective reason !
we should at the same time give good The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
reasons for doing so, reasons such as are On a variety of occasions I have heard
likely to be accepted by the people of the very excellent reasons given for pursuing
larger states, who, of course, are vitally what will be an acceptable course in the
interested in the amendment proposed interests of the people rather than pro-
In this connection I would not hesitate to ceeding upon purely scientific and logical
(The Right IIon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of (10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
285
lines. No more illustrious example has New South Wales, for example—I may
been given than was afforded lately by the be wrong--it was put that not only should
Right Hon. Joseph Chamberlain in the the larger states have increased represen-
House of Commons when recommending tation in the house of representatives, ac-
for acceptance that magnificent reform, cording to their population, but that they
the Workman's Compensation Bill. When should have it also in the senate. I think
taunted with not pushing the principle to not. I think also as regards my right hon.
its logical conclusion in its extension to all friend, Sir George Turner, that he did not
sorts and conditions of men, he replied that contend for any such position. Certainly
it was his duty to propose that which was the point was not very seriously or strenu-
practicable under the circumstances, and not ously argued for at the last meeting of the
to risk the direct defeat of the reform which Convention. I do not mind admitting to
he was then attempting to effect, and which hon. representatives that I practically feel
he was then able to carry out. Subsequent myself pledged by my declarations on this
proceedings have justified his most sanguine matter of the gravest principle, upon which
expectations. He contended that he ought I consider we have a right to expect a dis-
not to endanger that great reform by tinct pledge, to vote against an amendment
striving after something which he knew he of this sort and for equality of repre-
could not carry. What is the position here? sentation of the states in the senate. I
Is there one representative who seriously feel that there is no reason for the shadow
believes that if the larger states be given, of a doubt that if this amendment be
not only proportional representation ac- carried, we shall put back federation for
cording to their population in the national
years and years, and that is a responsibility
assembly, the house of representatives, but I am not willing to undertake. I venture to
increased numerical representation in the think I should be false to my trust and
senate, federation will or can be accepted undertaking, false to the pledges which I
at the present moment, or at any near date gave, false to my profession of interest in
by the smaller states? Surely nothing of the the cause of Australian union, if I were
sort can be expected. We have met from
to do so.
But I go a little further, and
time to time for the purpose of devising a say that this is not a question of expedi-
scheme that will be acceptable to all. How ency--not simply a question as to what
do you meet here to-day? We have equal it is desirable to do for the purpose of
representation in point of numbers. How securing the accomplishment of federation
are we ever to meet on dissimilar terms ? at an early date. Our position can be
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : We are here to justified on higher ground. I take it that
make a bargain!
in a system of unification the states as
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : such have no voice. In provincialism there
When has it been seriously proposed that is no provision for the representation of the
we should meet otherwise than we do nation ; but in a federation a facile means
now? I have read with a great deal of is and ought to be provided, whereby
interest the utterances of various distin- under a system of two clambers, both
guished representatives when before their voices ought to be heard—the voice of the
constituents—and it was undoubtedly an nation and the voice of the states as differ-
advantage that they had an opportunity ent constituent entities; and no such right
to consult the people on the matter—and and power of audience, it seems to me, can
I do not recollect that by any of them, be given effectually to the states unless you
take the head of the Government of provide for their equal representation in
286
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
the senate. Personally, I have no fear of The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
the permanent clashing of state interests And if the senators, say of South Aus-
on important national questions--no fear tralia, feel that the senators of New South
at all. At the same time, I am reminded Wales are truly voicing the views of the
of the position which was illustrated by people of New South Wales in the senate
the remark made by the brave captain of
in a matter of national concern I cannot
a ship when the vessel was labouring in a help thinking they will, aye, and that they
heavy sea off a lee shore. He was asked, ought to, regard the expression of the
“ Have you any fear ?" He said, “I have opinion of such a great section of the
no fear; but there is some danger.” Now, people in a matter of Australian interest
the reverse is the case with reference to with a degree of authority which—though
the clashing of state interests on national of course I do not suggest that they should
questions. To my mind, there is no danger; subordinate their deliberate private judg-
but there is a good deal of fear. We have ment-they would not attach to, and could
to allay this fear on the part of the small not attach to, the representatives of a
states before we can induce them to enter smaller community. I put it also, there-
the federation. We can do that in a fore, that whilst senators from the larger
variety of ways; but the greatest means colonies must speak with a greater weight
of all, and that to which most importance on account of the greater constituency
is attached, is that of equal representation which they represent, if they faithfully re-
in the senate. I will be no party what present it, that that is a sufficient reason
ever to the encouragement of a provision why the greater states should be satis-
which will enable the states to perman- fied with their position in the senate, and
ently override the wishes of the people of with the position also that in the national
Australia, as a whole, on great national house, the house of representatives, the
questions. And, even with equal repre- representation of the people according to
sentation, it seems to me that you will be their population will be provided for. I
unable to get away from this position- do trust there will be an endeavour on the
that the representatives of the great states, part of the representatives of both the large
the most populous states, in the senate, and the small states to agree in this. I
though only equal' in number, if they have tried so far as I could to weigh the
faithfully represent the views of their matter well, trying, as we are all trying, to
constituencies, will and must speak with come to the conclusion as to what is fair
greater authority on account of the larger in the interests of all—in the interests of
section of the community which they Australia. I think we have given a very
represent.
substantial concession to the representa-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : They tives of the larger states in providing for
will not vote with the greater authority, preventing the interference of the senate
though
in matters of purely financial and ad-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: ministrative concern.
I ask the repre-
They will not have a greater vote, but I sentatives to say that they will be satis-
am inclined to think that in whatever de- fied with a provision of that description.
liberative assembly you provide for, there The subject of this clashing I think can
will be a disposition on the part of each be further regulated by the limitation of
section of it to act in the interests of all. the jurisdiction of the federal authority
Mr. SYMON : They will exercise their to national matters. Let us scrutinise as
individual judgment !
closely as we can the various powers pro
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
287
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
posed to be conferred on the federal autho- on the subject. I think there is no room
rity. Let none be given in which the will for doubt that that Senate is not held in
of the states as states ought to be supreme, the same high esteem that it used to be.
but let everything be confided which can be As far as I can form an opinion, it arises
better managed on behalf of all by one from two causes, both of which are pro-
central authority than by the various pro- vided against in our proposed constitution.
vincial governments. Let us make thefran- Here I would like to say that not only
chise for both houses as broad as possible ; have I acquired information at large, but
let us provide if we can for a uniform fran- I have had the opportunity of exchanging
chise. Just as you broaden the franchise, views with some of the highest constitu-
in the same degree that you effect unifor- tional authorities, amongst whom I may
mity, so you lessen the probabilities of any mention Mr. Bryce, whose work on the
clashing between house and senate; because American Constitution has, I am sure,
they will represent, practically, the same con- been perused with interest-by most hon,
stituencies. Here I would like to say that members. One of the causes of the un-
I favour a proposition which will place it popularity of the American Senate is this,
within the power of the federal authority that it is not elected by the people, that
to dissolve the senate as well as the house of it is chosen simply by the local legisla-
representatives. I know that that will not tures. We propose to avoid all this. The
necessarily be a solution for deadlocks. I do result is, so I heard in America, that the
not think that we will often require a solu- local elections turn to a very great extent
tion for deadlocks if you practically make on the rival claims of senatorial candi-
the constituencies of the two houses alike in dates. Wealthy men and we know full
character. That will prevent deadlocks from well how many wealthy men find a seat
arising. I cannot contemplate the proba- in the senate as a result--do not hesitate
bility—it might be possible-in national to spend large sums in securing the elec-
questions of some matter of considerable dif- tion of candidates to the local legislatures
ference arising between a small state and a simply for the purpose of securing their
large one; but I think, if it is a matter of vote and influence in connection with sena-
national concern, and properly confided to torial elections, and the result, undoubt-
the federal authority, that a solution will be edly, has been most disastrous; a mixing
worked out under a parliament constituted up
of federal and state concerns in a way
as I have suggested. I merely indicate my which is operating altogether to the dis-
intention to support any proposal for the advantage both of senate and of state.
power of dissolution of the senate which Mr. Bryce, in his work--I think it is in a
may recommend itself to me for the pur- note--calls attention to a feeling which
pose of solving the question, which alone has been growing in favour of the provi-
it can solve, as to whether the senate is in sion we have adopted. I was, happily,
touch with its constituency; whether, as a able to supply him with a copy of this
matter of fact, it represents the people bill, and to draw his attention to the pro-
whom it is intended to represent. Under vision we propose to make on that sub-
these circumstances I shall be found re- ject, and, after the most careful considera-
cording my vote against the amendment of tion, he was pleased to express his most
the hon. member, Mr. Higgins. Something delighted approval of it as a very sub-
has been said about the unpopularity of stantial amendment, and one which would
the American Senate. I have had some op- have been made years and years ago in
portunities lately of acquiring information America had it not been for the very great
288
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
I am
difficulties which were imposed in the way shall be adopting a plan which we can
of any alteration of the constitution. confidently recommend to the acceptance
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : of the people of the various states.
Does he believe in one electorate?
more than sanguine, I am positive, that
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I if we adopt the amendment of our hon.
do not know that I directed his attention friend, Mr. Higgins, however much we
particularly to that; but he had the ad- respect the motives which induced him to
vantage of a perusal of the whole bill. I move it, and admire the way in which he
have received a letter from Mr. Bryce on has put it, we shall be taking a course
the subject, which has gone to Adelaide, which will set back federation for years
but which I hope to have in my hand and years, and I for one am not prepared
shortly, and which I shall be very pleased to take that responsibility.
indeed to place at the disposal of this Con- Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (11.5]:
vention, and of the public generally, as I am I make no apology for following the right
sure that any expression of opinion from hon. gentleman, who is on the same side
an authority of such acknowledged weight as myself, and a representative of the
will be a substantial addition to our know- same colony as myself. Probably it will
ledge of the subject. The other objection
be difficult for any of us to speak at
is that in the American Constitution the all on this subject if we wait until we
provision with reference to the equal re- find some preceding speaker taking the
presentation of states applies not only opposite view to that which has just been
to the states which were parties to the con-
so ably laid before this Convention. I
tracton which the constitution was founded, particularly feel that it is desirable that
but also to new states, and the result is we should lay before the Convention, and
that in the admission of smaller states, and
before the people of Australia, our views
in view of the great growth of the popula-
on this subject, because it is the most vital
tion of the older states, the differences are
question involved in the constitution which
most marked; marked to a degree which
we are about to frame. It lies at the very
we might consider was not within the con-
root of the business on which we
templation of the founders of the consti- engaged. The effort that was made to estab-
tution.
We are profiting by the mis-
lish unequal representation at the Adelaide
takes of those who have preceded us,
session met with little support. My belief
and no doubt representatives recollect that
is that it will meet with equally little sup-
in this connection, whereas, as regards port on this occasion ; but, at the same
existing states, we can count them on
time, I agree with what was so forcibly said
our fingers, whilst we secure equal re-
by the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, yes.
presentation to them if they choose to
terday afternoon, that it is our bounden duty
come in, still we take and preserve, as we
to make clear to the people of this country,
ought to do, the power and authority in particularly to those who may honestly
the future of regulating on what terms
differ from us in opinion, the reason for the
new states should be admitted. I think
faith that is in us, and our belief that whilst
in this respect also we are improving on
it may be a matter of expediency, whilst it
the conditions which obtained in America,
is indeed an absolute necessity in order to
and we may be justified in expecting the
secure federation, and an early federation,
happiest results. I think if we substan-
it is also founded on what we believe to be
tially retain the conditions as regards the right principle and just reason. I hold out
senate in the state in which they are, we
no threat or menace of any kind. It would
are
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
289
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I think, be idle to do so, particularly after member, Mr. Glynn, I know, put it that
the proclamation made by my hon. and there was no such thing as political syl-
learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, at the banquet logism, or put it in some such sbape as
at the Town Hall the other night of the that. It appears to nie, and upon that I
banns of a possible union between Victoria accept the challenge of my hon. friend,
and New South Wales. I am quite sure Mr. Higgins, that equal representation in
that if that came about all of us would the senate, if you are establishing a federa-
rejoice; we should say, “Bless you, my tion, is founded upon a very sound prin-
children.” I do not know whether my bon. ciple. It appears to me that my hon.
and learned friend had fixed the federal friend's speech illustrated, gallant as it
capital in this twinship of federation to be was, a forlorn hope against the really im-
in Sydney; probably he had arranged that pregnable fortress of equal representation;
also, but whether that be so or not, I am but I think it also exhibited rather the
quite sure that none of the smaller states ludicrous side of the great task of framing
are likely to disturb the serenity of any a constitution. My hon. friend reminded
such federation if it were brought about me, in his arguments, of the American
unless upon the footing of equal repre- clergyman who had the misfortune to
sentation in the senate. The Convention take a counterfeit $20-note.' He showed
upheld during its Adelaide session the pro- it amongst his friends, and they all com-
vision which is now being called in ques- miserated with him and agreed that it was
tion, and on that occasion very few of us, an excellent imitation and that it was very
indeed scarcely any, debated the question difficult to tell it from a genuine note.
from the point of view that the smaller This clergyman was afterwards asked by
states take. At the same time I believe a friend to produce the note to show the
it would be a dangerous, and I think wonderful resemblance to the genuine
an unfortunate thing if we allowed it to article, and he replied, “Oh, I have passed
be supposed throughout New South Wales it.” “What!" said his friend, "passed it ?"
and Victoria that we, in order to secure “Yes," he replied, "it was just like this:
equal representation in the senate, were that note was so well got up that whilst on
simply relying on the force of numbers. It some days I thought it was bad, on other
would be disastrous. It might create a days I am hanged if I did not think it
difficult, and a troublesome feeling to over- was good ; and on one of the days when I
come, and for the sake of securing a sym- thought it was good I passed it.”
pathetic as well as a quick federation, we Mr. HIGGINS : Is equal representation
ought to submit our views, I think, in the to be passed like the forged note ?
fullest possible way. I do not quite agree Mr. SYMON: My bon. friend must
with
my hon. and learned friend, Sir John sometimes have misgivings about the argu-
Downer, that equal representation cannot ment he offers. Yesterday there was not
be defended on logical grounds or on prin- that genuine and emphatic ring about his
ciple.
speech-although it was filled with chiv-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I never alry and good nature—which we remem-
said that it could not !
ber on the last occasion when the Conven-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It was Mr. tion met in Adelaide. I think he has occa-
Glynn!
sional doubt—some misgivings as to the
Mr. SYMON: I was under the impres- validity of his arguments; but there are
sion that it was my hon. and learned friend, times when he thinks them absolutely
Sir John Downer. The hon, and learned invulnerable, and then he
invulnerable, and then he passes them off
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[10 SEPT., 1897.
upon us.
For instance, my hon. friend is Mr. SYMON: It is not a mere phrase
carried away by the phrase "one man one -at least, we do not think it is a mere
vote," and by what he calls the corollary phrase. We think it is a matter of very
-even the Attorney-General of Victoria serious substance.
smiled yesterday when that was trotted Mr. WISE: It obliterates a lot of human
out again-many men many votes." That nature !
is a very fine antithesis. It was served up Mr. SYMON : What my hon. friend
to us hot in Adelaide; yesterday there was is going for is absorption. He is like that
a slight want of freshness about it.
celebrated bird, the cassowary, which, it is
Mr. HIGGINS : Mywords were in answer said,
to the misleading phrase,
« One man one
On the plains of Timbuctoo,
Ate up the missionary,
vote, therefore one state one vote”!
Body, bones, and hymn-book, too.
Mr. SYMON : May I suggest that a That is the position. He wants the larger
truer corollary of one man one vote than states to swallow up the less populous.
that put forward by the hon. member is He wants absorption. Again, I say I do
one woman one vote. I commend that, not blame him, for I am free to confess
at any rate, to the consideration of my that, if it were possible, I should like to see
hon. friend.
a unified Australia
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Does the hon. The Hon. S. FRASER : We had that years
gentleman think that will bring about ago, and we did not like it!
federation ?
Mr. SYMON: If it were possible, I have
Mr. SYMON: It may be that is the no theoretical objection to it. I say that
kind of union my hon, friend had in in order to show I do not reproach or
view in his great speech at the Town Hall undervalue for one moment the contention
the other night. At any rate, possibly of any hon. member or any person through-
we, coining from the more enlightened out the length and breadth of Australia,
colony of South Australia, may be a little who believes in unification. All I say is
prejudiced as to that form of antithesis, but that is not what we are going to do. If
as the matter is one of highly debatable we are going to have a federation, and if
politics, I will say nothing further about the states are to be represented, then I say
it. My hon. friend interjected with re- that a man who discriminates between one
gard to one state one vote. I will ask him, man one vote and one state one vote, when
Are the states, in his judgment, to be re- the states are to be represented, is doing
presented in the federation ? Ought the violence to the principles of democracy,
states, as states, to be represented in the which underlie the one proposition as well
federation ? I am discriminating between as the other. Then my hon. friend had a
the people and the states, and I ask my hon. patent way of turning a minority vote
friend : Does he concede that the states, into a majority vote, by taking five from
as states, are to be represented in the the majority, and so converting the min-
federation ?
ority into a majority of one.
Mr. HIGGINS : Certainly not!
The Hon. E. BARTON : With the same
Mr. SYMON: Then he is not a federa- success which attended Paddy when he
tionist at all. My hon. friend and I do increased the size of his blanket!
not blame him, I do not reproach him for
Mr. SYMON: I do not know what
one moment–is going for a unification. Paddy did with his blanket.
Mr. HIGGINS : It is a mere phrase, you The Hon. E. BARTON : He cut a piece
know !
off the top and put it on the bottom !
Mr. Symon.
Commoiwealth of
291
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. SYMON: I thought that a most departed from, still underlies the basis of
astute way of getting over the majority, any union of that kind. What we are
and the effect of it. The hon. gentleman doing is this: we are framing a "federal”
also dug up precedent, not with great suc- constitution. We have no charge or duty
cess, I confess; but my hon. friend, Mr. to do anything else. The people of Aus-
Carruthers, objected to precedent being dug tralia may prefer unification.
up, and I do not wonder at it, if it were
An Hon. MEMBER : They do not !
put to such base uses—base in the Shak-
Mr. SYMON : I say they may prefer
sperian sense as those to which Mr.
it. They may prefer a loose confederation.
Higgins put it yesterday. The way in
That is not what they have said.
which he treated the United States Con-
stitution was almost a kind of sacrilege, to
The Hon. S. FRASER : They do not want
centralisation !
say nothing of the Swiss Constitution. He
discriminated in the most singular way the
Mr. SYMON: No, I am sure they do
Canadian Constitution and the Constitu-
not. But if they want either the one or
tion of the German Empire. The hon. the other, that is not what they have said
member dealt with the United States-the in the enabling act, under which they have
greatest of all federal constitutions—in a sent us here, and by the authority of which
way which, I think, he will find the very we sit. We are here to construct a system
greatest difficulty in justifying, either from containing the elements both of unification
constitutional writers in America or from and of a confederation, if we can. It is to
American public men of any standing be a union of people and an alliance of
who are willing to express an opinion. states; it is to be federal ; it is to be a
We have had an example from the right national government with a federal union;
· hon. gentleman who has just sat down, as and, in that respect, I wish to say that I
to what the view in America is with re- do not agree with the proposition that
gard to the senate; and an illustration of federation is a compromise -- not in the
that kind of fact produced in that way sense in which that expression has been
mis worth pounds of mere declamation
used upon this particular question. I say
or assertion on the subject. But then
that either equal or unequal representation
my hon. friend, in addition to putting is not a subject of compromise.
these so-called arguments, wound up by
The Hon. H. DOBSON: It is a principle !
some utterly unsupported assertions, and Mr. SYMON: Federation is only a com-
called upon us to give reasons to the con- promise in this sense: it is a compromise be-
trary. He was like a man who asserts tween unification and confederation; but,
that the moon is made of green cheese, once you reach that, then there is no scope
and then calls upon all those who dispute for compromise in the principles which
it to prove that it is not. Even at the underlie the system which you are seeking to
risk of accepting a position of that kind, establish. My hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers,
it is, I think, my duty to point out to my put it perfectly well, only he put it in the
hon. friend some of the authorities which alternative. He said, “Is it to be a union
should satisfy him—at all events, I am sure of states, or to bind the hearts of the
he will give them the weight of his acute people." It is to be both-it is to be a
mind-that equal representation in the union of states and to bind the hearts of
senate is an essential of true federation; the people. That is the answer to my hon.
that it is a principle which we cannot friend's alternative proposition; and it is
ignore, and one which, though it may be in order to secure that result that, if we
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Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
ment” says:
have two chambers, we must have one greatest importance as though it were a
chamber in which the hearts of the people new discovery, but which in Adelaide we
--to use that phrase—are represented, and threshed out as exhaustively as we could,
another in which the states are represented. and which my hon. friend, Sir Richard
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Suppose Baker, now in the chair, dealt with tho-
inevitable conflict occurs, what then?
roughly, probably long before my hon.
friend, Mr. Higgins, considered the subject
Mr. SYMON: I do not know exactly
of federation very much. But, at any rate,
what conflict my hon. friend is alluding if you concede—and I commend this to my
to, but very probably I will have some-
hon, friend; I will deal with responsible
thing to say a little further on as to what
government at the proper time—if you con-
I think is in his mind. What I want to
cede that in a federation each state as a
do now is to refer my hon. friend, Mr.
whole and each citizen individually is to
Higgins, especially, to one or two authori-
have a voice in the federal assembly, you
ties, which should satisfy him as to equal concede the whole contest—there is an end .
representation being a principle in a federa-
of it as a matter of principle, because, as re-
tion. The learned editorof the latest edition
gards citizens, the representation must be
of "Freeman's History of Federal Govern-
according to the number of individual citi-
zens, each having the same power--one vote.
The object both of ancient and modern federa-
tion was to provide that both each state as a
That, of course, is not always achieved, be-
whole and each citizen individually should have causeone individual one vote to be perfectly
a voice in the federal assembly.
scientific, ought always to have one value;
Mr. HIGGINS : Who says that?
but you get as near to it as you possibly can.
Mr. SYMON: A most learned gentle. Then, as regards the states, the represen-
man-Mr. Bury. I have no doubt that
tation must be according to the number of
individual states.
my hon. friend is aware of that, though
That principle of state
he may have forgotten the name.
equality was established centuries before
the United States Constitution was ever
Mr. HIGGINS: Can we learn what our
dreamt of. I do not propose to deal with
federation ought to be from that book ?
the matter academically for more than one
Mr. SYMON : Where is my hon. friend single moment; but it is a most fascinating
going to learn what federation is unless he and interesting subject to trace the history
learns it from authorities on the subject ? of the early federations in Greece and their
I can understand that he wishes to evolve
remarkable similarity to the United States
some kind of federation out of his own
Constitution. Since Mr. Freeman wrote
inner consciousness.
his book—and this is the only academical
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: There is no quotation with which I shall trouble hon.
precedent for the view of the hon. mem- members; but I do think that we ought to
ber, Mr. Higgins !
make it clear to the people of the country
Mr. SYMON: As the hon. member, Sir that there is some foundation for this,
William Zeal, says, there is no precedent and it is from that point of view that I
for the view of my hon, friend, Mr. Higgins. take the liberty of occupying the atten-
Mr. HIGGINS : And there is no prece- tion of hon. members with this-since
dent for equal representation with respon- Mr. Freeman wrote his book, some fur-
sible government !
ther discoveries have been made which
Mr. SYMON: Now my hon. friend is have thrown a food of light upon the
putting his finger on a matter of the principle involved in this question. At
.
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
293
page 247 of the latest edition of his work Mr. SYMON: The learned editor says:
on the history of federal government, there This being so, certainly for the Ætolian, and
is this footnote:
probably for the Achæan Senate, a parallel and
In the Achæan Assembly, each city, great or
contrast may be drawn between the federal as-
small
semblies of these old leagues and the federal as-
because in those days it was, of course, a
sembly of modern Switzerland. The object of
both the ancient and the modern federations was
federal league, not of districts or of coun-
to provide that each state as a whole, and each
tries, but of cities
citizen individually should have a voice in the
each city, great or small, had one vote.
federal assembly.
Mr. HIGGINS : It was merely a league ! The doubt was whether the senators were
Mr. SYMON: My hon. friend is talk- elected by the asseinbly in those early
ing without knowing anything at all about days or whether they were elected by the
this particular subject. I wish to enlighten particular states. Since Mr. Freeman's
him if he will allow me; we are all capable death it has been discovered from an old
of enlightenment:
Greek inscription that they were elected
In the American Senate, each state, great or by the particular states just as we propose
small, sends an equal number of senators; but
that our senators should be elected. In
the votes are not taken by states
the appendix, page 651, we find these
That is one of the great safeguards of the
words
larger population-
We can say definitely in the case of the
the two senators of a state may vote on opposite
Ætolian League what could only be put forward
sides of a question like the two members for an
tentatively in the case of the Achæan, that the
English county or borough.
senate consisted of representatives chosen by the
And upon this, at page 249, Freeman says: states.
Probably no two constitutions, produced at
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : What
such a distance of time and place from one became of those leagues?
another, ever presented so close a resemblance
Mr. SYMON : What has become of the
to each other as that which exists between the
Constitution of the United States, and the Con- United States ? The United States has
stitution of the Achæan League,
gone from small things to great until it
But there is more than that. After the has become one of the mightiest nations
lamented death of Mr. Freeman, further on the face of the earth under a federation
investigation was made, and the learned including, as an essential part of its system,
editor discovered that not only in the
equal representation in the senate. What
Achæan League, but also in the Ætolian
is the use of my hon. friend asking me, as
League, which was a federal league repre- implied in his question, whether these old
senting the people in the primary as-
Greek federations have not, like all things
sembly, and representing the states in the
human, passed away ? Of course they have.
senate
But they had elements of weakness which
Mr. Higgins : What about the Lycian
do not exist in a modern federation such
League ?
as that of the United States of America.
Mr. SYMON: Perhaps the hon. mem-
ber will allow me to proceed. I dare say
If my hon. friend puts the question to me,
he is familiar with Greek.
then I say to him, "Take the United States,
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Before
and you have at any rate, a most valuable
the flood !
parallel, and you have the proposition, which
Mr. SYMON: I am not going so far
I am seeking to establish, that from the
back as that.
earliest federation until the latest federa-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Before the flood tion on true federal principles the states
of democracy!
have bad representation in what has been
3
294
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
this way:
· called the senate, and they have had equal says, would be taking steps backward.
representation per state. That is all I am Surely if it were bad in this particular re-
contending for. But I want to go one step spect we should bave some one, some con-
further. My hon. friend, Mr. Higgins,stitutional authority, to say so ! On the
gave us the United States in support of contrary, we have the United States Con-
equal representation. He would not give stitution, containing this grave blemish, if
us Switzerland. My hon. friend, Mr. my hon. friend's view is correct, spoken of
Glynn, has thoroughly disposed of his ex- by Lord Rosebery as "the matchless Con-
ception of Switzerland, and, therefore, it stitution of the United States." We have
is unnecessary that I should travel over it spoken of by Freeman, to whom my
that ground. My hon. friend has shown hon. friend pins his faith, at page 4, in
that Switzerland, so far as equal represen-
tation is concerned, is identically on the The other two
same footing as the United States of Meaning the other two federations of
America. But more than that--and this Switzerland and the United States-
-is the only observation with which I shall one of them among the least, the other among
pursue the subject--the senate in Switzer- the greatest, of independent powers, still re-
main, exhibiting federalism in a perfect, or
land has what we have abandoned in the
nearly perfect, form, standing, in the old world
senate to be formed under our constitution.
and in the new, as living examples of the
It has a voice in the choice of the federal strength and the weakness of the most elaborate
council, which is the governing body in
of political combinations.
Switzerland. We have not got that. It
And at page 5 he says, again--and this
is the last I shall quote upon this point
appears to me that we have reduced our
senate under the proposed federation to
from Freeman ; there are scores of other
the barest necessities of the case. Still, I passages, but hon. members would not
do not pretend to be bound by precedents.
thank me for reading them now :
The Achæan League, and the United States
I do not pretend that this convention is
since the adoption of the present Constitution,
bound by precedents. We all represent are indeed the most perfect developments of the
what are really sovereign states-sovereign federal principle which the world has ever seen.
states in essence, if not in form—and we Surely, sir, that is some authority upon
.can strike out, if we please, an entirely which we can go. Surely that is some-
new line. I thoroughly agree with my hon. thing which we can tell the people of this
friend in that. But it is instructive to country is, at any rate, a fair foundation
have examples of other federations, and to upon which our claim may rest. Putting
fairly follow them, if we fulfil the federal Mr. Freeman aside, let us take what Mr.
theory, unless, of course, it can be shown Justice Story says-probably one of the
that experience condemns them. Now, I
Now, I greatest constitutional writers who ever
have no slavish devotion to the Constitu- lived in the United States or any other
tion of the United States. But what is country, and an authority whose value will
said of that constitution in which equal re- not be questioned. He says:
presentation in the Senate is a conspicuous The structure has been erected by architects
feature? My hon.friend, Mr. Higgins, said
of consummate skill and fidelity. Its founda-
it was not a success. Did he produce a
tions are solid, its compartments beautiful as
well as useful, its arrangements are full of wis-
single authority? Did he produce the con- dom and order, its defences are impregnable
sidered judgment of a single constitutional from without, it has been reared for immortality:
thinker or writer tº establish such a pro- If we find a constitutional writer so full :
position ? To follow such an example, he in his judgment, and in his heart, of this
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
295
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
He says:
great federal principle which we are now - abolish these great evils once they are es-
to some extent following, I think we may tablished, they could have abolished that
very fairly say that it is worthy of our principle in the constitution which, it has
imitation, as far as we can possibly adopt been stated, was the cause of the civil war
it. But it appears to me that the greatest -the equal representation of the states in
tribute to that constitution embodying the the Senate. I deny that the cause of the
principle of equal representation is that, war was equal representation in the Sen-
though framed for thirteen states on the ate. Mr. Freeman lays special stress upon
Atlantic seaboard with a population of this particular aspect when speaking of the
something like 3,500,000, it has been
immortal work of Washington and Hamil-
found sufficient for forty-five states, with ton.
a population of more than 70,000,000, ex-
The American commonwealth, with its mani.
tending from ocean to ocean. It has been fest defects
found sufficient to withstand the difficul-
and which human constitution is without
ties that arise in .peace, and to resist the defects ?
shock of the greatest civil war which the
still remains one of the most abiling monuments
world has ever seen. Surely that is some- of human wisdom, and it has received a tribute
thing on which we can rely. But in addi-
to its general excellence such as no other political
tion to that, the confederate states, as was
system was ever honored with. The states which
have seceded from its government, which look
pointed out by my hon. friend, Sir John
with the bitterest hatred on its actual adminis-
Downer, yesterday, modelled their consti- trators, have re-enacted it for themselves in all
tution upon that of the United States as its essential provisions. Nothing but inveterato
blindness of party spirit
a whole, and adopted the principle of equal
representation in the senate.
I do not for a moment apply this to my
Mr. WISE : Every South American
hon. friend
federation has done the same !
can hinder this simple fact from stopping the
Mr. SYMON: Yes, as my hon. and
mouths of cavillers. Sneers
at
learned friend points out, every South
federal systems are simply proofs of ignorance
and shallowness wherever found.
American federation has done the same.
But, what I want to suggest for the con-
That is a quotation, and I hope it will be
sideration of my hon. friend and others
understood that it is within quotation
who fairly and honestly think as he does
marks. There is this further observation
is, that we have the seceding states adopt-
I should like to make. I do not say for a
ing the same principles upon which to con-
moment that the vast wealth and splendid
struct their constitution, and the non-
progress which we have witnessed in the
seceding or federal states retaining their
United States, with its unsurpassed enjoy-
constitution unaltered, or without any at- ment of peace and freedom, is due to its
tempt to alter it in this particular, although constitution, or to its form of government;
to help them to scatter all difficulties in but with all its defects, that constitution
connection with the constitution to the has been no hindrance to national pros-
winds, if they had chosen, they had not perity. Therefore, I ask you, what war-
only the civil power, but the power re- rant have you for saying that even if the
sulting from the possession of a victorious equal representation of the states is pro-
army, and the conditions which always vided for in our constitution it will impede
follow upon a great civil convulsion. They the government, or for one instant, delay
abolished slavery, which had existed under the prosperity of the people of Australia
the constitution, and, if they could abolish when they are united. My hon. friend
slavery, difficult as it undoubtedly is to said that the provision in the United
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Commonwealth of
[10 Sept, 1897.1
States Constitution giving equal represen- coming from the smaller states, represent,
tation of states was a compromise. I the fear that they will be liable to coercion.
have dealt with that statement. He also This is what Samuel Adams wrote:
said that it was adopted with misgivings. I stumble at the threshold. I meet with a
But we were not told on whose side the national government instead of a federal union
misgivings were The misgivings were
of sovereign states.
on the side of the smaller states. It is He wrote again to his friend Lee :
an extraordinary fact, but it is true, that I have always been apprehensive that miscon-
the states, afterwards the United States, structions would be given to the federal constitu-
tion, which would disappoint the views and
some years after the war, were in a state
expectations of the honest among those who
of disorganisation, and, in some parts, in
acceded to it, and hazard the liberty, inde-
a condition bordering upon anarchy; yet pendence, and happiness of the people. I was
that the Philadelphia Convention and the particularly afraid that, unless great care
federal constitution were really the out-
should be taken to prevent it, the constitution,
in the adıninistration of it, would gradually, but
come of a desire to establish some better
swiftly and imperceptibly, run into a consolidated
kind of trading system. Webster says government, pervading and legislating through
that it arose in this way: The precise ob-
all the states, not for federal purposes only, as
it professes, but in all cases whatsoever. Such a
ject of the appointment of the conference
government would soon totally annihilate the
which took place at Annapolis, at the re- sovereignty of the several states, so necessary to
quest of Virginia, in September, 1786, the safety of a confederated commonwealth, and
was
sink both iu despotisin.
to take into consideration the trade of the United That is the evidence I have been able to
States, to examine the relatire situations and
find of misgivings in connection with this
trade of the several states, and to consider how
matter at the time of the inception of
far a uniforın system of commercial regulations
was necessary to their common interests and
the federal constitution in America, and
permanent harmouy.
these misgivings were on the side of the
Hamilton was one of the commissioners,
smaller states. It has been said that the
and the conference, or commission, recom-
federal powers and duties are no concern
mended the general convention which as-
of the states as states; that upon these
sembled at Philadelphia. It is no doubt subjects it is a unification that we desire.
true that there were disturbances in some Instances were given. Laws affecting
of the states at the time; but it is not true marriage and divorce and other subjects
that equal representation of the states was were mentioned. The simple answer to
brought about in consequence of the enemy
that contention is this : We are not com-
thundering at the gates of the United mitting these subjects of legislation to a
States. I ask, again, upon whose side
national or unified government; we are
were the misgivings? On the side of the committing them to a federal government.
smaller states. Let me establish that by If you do not give us equal representation
one quotation from a letter of the great in the senate and a true federation, we will
Samuel Adams, who was a representative
not commit them. If we were prepared
from one of the smaller states, opposed to
to commit them to a unified government,
the federal union, Massachusetts. Not- there would be an end to the matter; but
withstanding equal representation, they it is of the very essence of the system we
were afraid to join the federation. As the are seeking to create, and under which we
last speaker asked, whose fears hare we are willing to come, that we shall have
to allay? Not the fears of the larger equal representation in the senate. There-
states ; it is the fears of those whom we, fore it is begging the question to say that
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
297
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
an execil-
these are matters of common concern and pression about rotten boroughs and that
proper to be dealt with by the national sort of thing. But he did not say that
rather than the state government. Then one of the states who voted against it was
there is the objection as to the disparity of the iminense state of Illinois, containing
the populations. South Australia has over the city of Chicago-one of the most popu-
350,000 people or thereabouts, as against lous, prosperous, and powerful states of the
New South Wales with a population of union.
1,300,000. What is that? It is less than Mr. WISE: We have no evidence what-
four times as many.
But if you look to ever that that treaty ever passed the
the other countries that are now existing House of Representatives ?
under a federal system, you will find in Mr. SYMON: There is not. And it
the Swiss federation, Berne with nearly must also be remembered that there is a
600,000 people, thirty times the population function on the part of the Senate there
of Zug, with equal representation, nearly which would not vest in the senate here-
forty times the population of Zurich, with which is peculiar to the Senate as consti-
about 17,000. Take the United States. In tuted in the United States
the state of New York, you have 6,000,000, tive function. Epithets such as “rotten
and you have Nevada with 45,000, and boroughs" applied to states of smaller num-
Delaware with 150,000.
bers is no argument whatever upon this
Mr. HIGGINS : That is what they com- question. The solution of the difficulty as
plain of !
to smaller states coming in at a later date
Mr. SYMON: I challenge my hon. is either that they should not be admitted,
friend to find one constitutional authority or that there should be a minimum of
who condemns it. Let him find one. My population in them upon their admission.
hon. friend, speaking yesterday afternoon, I am not justifying that, but those are
referred in mild terms to some wretched some of the possibilities. You might either
magazine or other, in which some bitter not admit them until they have a mini-
opponent of the particular party in power, mum of population, or you might admit
or some person who is, or was, strongly in them on terms, if it be thought just, which,
favour of the arbitration treaty, and of while conserving the principle at the heart
course ready to condemn any one who op- of the federal system, would also conserve
posed it, expressed himself. It is all very the interests of those who already belong
well to indulge in the loose rhetoric of to the federation. For my part, I confess
political denunciation in regard to those —and I was pleased to hear the remarks
opposed to you. We know what that just made on the subject by one who has
It must be all taken with a dis- been so recently in America—I have never
count. I have been unable to find and heard myself—and I have been in America,
I have devoted some research to it last I have travelled through it, and taken ad-
night, after my hon. friend's interesting vantage of the opportunity to communi-
speech, which stimulated my powers of cate with men in political life—I have
research I have been unable, I say, to never heard an American express con-
find, although I endeavoured to do so, any
demnation of the principle of equal repre-
constitutional authority who condemned sentation in the Senate, or attribute to
this principle of equal representation in that condition of things the evils which
the senate. I have been unable to find afflict America, and which afflict other
one. In regard to this very arbitration countries as well, the evils incident to
treaty, the hon. member quoted some ex- particular forms of civil government. I
means.
Y
298
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Consmonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
have been informed on this point, that Mr. HIGGINS : She took seventeen, al-
some of the ablest senators who have ever though entitled to thirty-six !
been members of the United States Senate, Mr. SYMON: It is true, as my hon.
have come from the smaller states.
friend observes, that she took seventeen
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : They members; but she might have taken
would have come all the same had there seventy-seven, and the other parts of the
been no equal representation !
German federation would probably have
Mr. SYMON: I admit that equal re- had to give way, or get nothing at all.
presentation does not necessarily bring
Mr. HIGGINS : According to population
good men ; but my hon, friend's argument
hon. friend's argument she was entitled to thirty-six !
I understood to be that equal representa- Mr. SYMON: But she did not take
tion bad a most deteriorating influence- that number. She did not join the other
that you could only get the best men by states according to population; but she
proportional representation, owing to the took what she pleased. It was the length
opportunities for greater corruption in the of the Chancellor's conscience which meted
smaller states. Perhaps my hon. friend's out that particular amount of representa-
argument did not go to that length, but tion, the Chancellor being, of course,
that was the tendency of it. I do not wish Bismarck. We come now to the Canadian
to dwell on the instances given in support
federation. That is no federation for us
of the opposite view—it is of no moment to imitate.
that there are exceptions to the doctrine An Hon. MEMBER: They have equality!
that the true principle of federation is
Mr. SYMON: There was a kind of
equality. There may be exceptions; there equality settled between two large states,
may be departures. You may constitute and they gave equality to a certain group
the senate on any basis you please. The
of states.
German federation is no example for us to
An HON. MEMBER: There was a common
imitate. All the so-called states in the interest !
Germanic federation were dependent prin-
Mr. SYMON: No doubt there was ;
cipalities. They were not independent com- but whether that be so or not, I do not
monwealths, and therein lies the great dif- suppose my hon. friend would apply the
ference between the two positions. When nominee principle to the senate of this
the German states federated, as one hon. country as it has been applied to the Senate
member put it in an interjection, they
of the Dominion. My hon. friend, Mr.
federated at the point of thesword. Prussia Carruthers, in the exordium to his speech,
was the dominant monarchy, and was able dealt largely with the question of man-
to do exactly what she pleased. She dic- hood suffrage and equal political rights.
tated the terms which she thought proper.
Those are not infringed in any way what-
Perhaps they were not just to the other . This question does not touch them.
states; but they were convenient and safe He asked whether they were expected to
for herself. I remember hearing of a Ger- give up that for which they had been bat-
man colonel who, having had an argument tling for years ? "Never!” said he. “Are
with some one, on relating the incident to we to throw open the ports of this colony
a friend, said, “I felt that the man was to influences degrading to our manhood
going to convince me, and so I kicked hiin and womanhood?" Who is asking you to do
down stairs." That was just the case with anything of the kind ? That kind of argu-
Prussia. What would have been the fate ment is all very well, but it really has no
of the minor states had they expostulated? more relation to the subject with which
ever.
[Mr. Symon.
Connho11a0ecaltle of
299
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Australici Bill.
we are dealing than Tenterden steeple has Now, I assent to that. I submit that
to do with the Goodwin Sands. My hon. answers the question which was put.
friend then asked some questions. He HON. MEMBERS : Author! Author !
asked the supporters of equal representa- Mr. SYMQN : My hon. friends are a
tion, “Why desire this particular repre- little impatient. I submit that that is a
sentation ?” Now, I do not share my complete answer to my hon. friend's ques-
hon. friend's objection to precedent. I tion. The speaker then goes on to state
like to dig up precedent. My own vocabu- most admirably the other view which we
lary is poor
from the smaller states urge with all
Hon. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!
humility.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : I do not
The alternative to granting this power would,
like graveyards myself!
he was convinced, mean that the smaller or less
populous states, would refuse to federate, and
Mr. SYMON: I am not about to give by so doing they would keep that very power
the hon, member a musty precedent; it is which some might protestagainst but not destroy.
quite a recent one-as recent as February That is an excellent statement, and I owe
of this year. I must say I have found it my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, a debt of
to be an authority most apt in expression, gratitude for it. He is the author, and
luminous in idea and succinct in its appli- in that declaration he has conclusively
cation. I do not use it for any contro- answered his own question. I know that
versial or polemic purpose, but merely to my hon. friend who delivered himself yes-
illustrate the argument I am addressing terday of a powerful speech on this sub-
to hon. members, in order to answer my ject will say, because the view of course
hon. friend's question much better than I has been indicated this morning, that there
could answer it myself.
should be some treatment in connection
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Is it with deadlocks. That is a matter with
Freeman ?
which, no doubt, we shall have to deal
Mr. SYMON: No, it is not Freeman. before this Convention is very much older;
Freeman was a historian, but the quotation but the question of equal representation
I am going to make is from one who is an in the senate is one thing, while the
orator as well as a historian. He says : treatment of possible deadlocks is quite
Great confusion existed in the matter of the a different one.
I am not going to deal
treatment by candidates of the senate and state
with the deadlock question now; but I
rights, and he preferred to deal with them as two
distinct matters, namely—the rights of the states
only add this in one word before closing,
in the senate, and state rights versus the federal
that the senate has also to fulfil the func-
powers.
tions of an upper house. That I also
Now that is a very excellent way of deal- commend to the people of New South
ing with the subject, and I say amen to it. Wales and Victoria, who may properly
He was entirely in favour of equal representa- and naturally take the view if they choose
tion of the states in the senate, and by popular of the hon, members who have addressed
election.
us, that this is an upper house in a sense.
That is what we have got in the bill.
It is also to be a check, as all upper houses
His reason for conceding this
are, upon the representative chamber.
and this is the answer to the question-
The Hon. S. FRASER : They are both
was that at present each state had an equal voice representative!
in matters of federal concern—such as defence,
Mr. HIGGINS: That is why all the torieš
tariff, posts and telegraphs, &c.; and they were
only granting a continuance of power now exist-
go in for it!
ing by giving them an equal voice in the senate.
Another HON. MEMBER :
300
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
was
Mr. SYMON: If I thought that the framed. We have taken from the senate
use of the expression “upper house” their executive powers, their powers of
going to cause such a subdued disturbance, dealing with treaties, and appointment to
I would not have employed it. I would offices. All that I agree with. We have
have called it the second chamber. But, taken from them the power of dealing with
at any rate, if it is to be a second chamber money bills, and possibly this Conrention
in any sense of the term at all, one would may reaffirm its decision. When the time
think—and I merely offer-this as a sugges- comes I shall intimate my own view, and
tion-there ought to be some different I may, at any rate, say this much, that my
character about it in some way or other view has undergone some change since the
so as to differentiate it from the other last convention, as to amending money bills.
chamber, otherwise what on earth is the But we have also taken from it its voice
good of having it?
in the choice of ministers which exists in
Mr. HIGGINS : Just so; what is the good? Switzerland, and we have given to it that
Mr. SYMON: There is the advocate broadest of all, and best of all foundations,
again of absorption.
direct popular election. We must also re-
Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. and learned gentle.
member that the senators are to vote in-
man is using the most dangerous argument, dividually and not as states. I think that
one which will be used against his view ! is an immense safeguard. The six men
Mr. SYMON: I always like my hon.
who come from each state will exercise
friend to point out my danger; but, as I am
their individual judgment just as we in
reminded from my right, a different charac-
this Convention are exercising our indivi-
ter is given to it, because it is representative dual judgment. I do not believe for one
of state interests; that is the reason for it. moment, I have not the least apprehension
An HON. MEMBER :
that there will be a combination of block
Mr. SYMON: Yes, it must exercise
votes of certain states against certain other
states in this senate which we are about
a revising function, and it is only because
to create. I cannot conceive of matters
of that revising function that there seems
to be an argument, and, I admit, a fairly
which would bring that about. Slavery
strong argument, in support of something in the United States of America was a
in the nature of a dissolution under cer- totally different thing; happily we are free
tain conditions. I say nothing further from a bondage of that description.
about that now ; but, at any rate, it is Mr. TRENWITH : Not quite !
representative of state interests. It is the Mr. SYMON: I do not want to go into
outward and visible sign of the autonomy
another matter of that kind. I may enter-
of the states; that is what we are going tain views which may or may not agree
to have unless this Convention breaks up
with those of my hon. friend, but I do not
federation by refusing to give it to us. want to go into what is a debatable subject,
Then it has been purged of every possible
as to the labour conditions in this country
source of objection which exists to the at the present moment. But at any rate
senate of the United States. I believe, never we hope, never we believe, never as
and I say this advisedly, that the bill, as long as we have life and breath to keep it
it left the Adelaide Convention-there are out shall we admit anything into these free
matters which may have to be modified countries at all resembling the condition of
but as it left the Adelaide Convention, the African bondage in the states of America.
bill was the finest and the most democratic The Hon. S. FRASER : They will have to
instrument of federal government ever
go to their constituencies every three years!
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 1897.] Australice Bill.
301
sense.
Mr. SYMON : What are we offered in- Mr. SYMON: Really my hon. friend
stead of it? We are offered proportional does not give that attention which he
representation. I venture to say that that usually bestows on matters of this kind.
gives away the whole position. It is a The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It is as
bastard and alien method of dealing with well to clear up the misapprehension now
this subject. It must be either equal repre- it has arisen and to say where it was said.
sentation or representation as in the lower Mr. SYMON: I do not think there is
house according to population in its widest any misapprehension, if I may say so.
I admit with my hon. friend, Mr. The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I think
Carruthers, that we must talk, no matter my hon. and learned friend's words were
what the provocation may be, with calm- that he was referring to a statement made
ness and moderation with regard to the
in this Convention !
debates in the legislatures all of which we
Mr. SYMON: If my right hon. friend
most highly esteem.
There have been ex-
says that he was under that impression I
pressions which were not very kind to-
will accept it at once. I did not think
wards us from the small colonies. We have they were capable of that construction. .
been told in some of these whirlwinds of They were not intended to have it; but
rhetoric that we were deserts seeking to
if any member of the Convention thinks
be represented and not human beings. All
that my language was capable of the con-
I can say is that South Australia occupies
struction which is suggested, then I at
once correct it as I have done. I was
as good a position as does this state. She is
proud of it. She has done great public ser-
not referring to any member of the Con-
vention, I was referring to a statement
vices. She has prosecuted gigantic national
made
works out of her own pocket and at her
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Outside
own risk and responsibility, and if there is
the Convention ?
any colony which deserves to rank with the
Mr. SYMON: I was referring to a state-
foremost states of this continent it is the
ment made elsewhere, and only because of
colony from which we come. I have no in-
the appeal which my hon. friend, Mr. Car-
dignation to express about it, but I think
ruthers, very properly addressed to us, to
it is a pity that sneers are uttered against speak with calmness and moderation, not-
these smaller colonies, and when we are told
withstanding the provocation to which we
that they do not represent individuals, and
might have been subjected by members of
that the only centres of life and action in
houses of legislature when dealing with this
this country are Sydney and Melbourne
question. I am quite willing to be to their
Mr. HIGGINS : Who said that?
faults a little blind, and to their virtues
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No one has
very kind. Therefore, I merely indicate
said that!
the unhappy line which was taken in some
Mr. HIGGINS : Who has sneered at the
places, and I should be sorry, even in order
representatives from the smaller colonies, to clear up a misapprehension, to mention
or said anything like that?
any name.
Mr. SYMON : Does my hon. friend put The Hon. J. H. Howe: That is carry.
that to me as though I were making the ing out the scriptural injunction !
statement without authority ? Shall I The Hon. A. DEAKIN: What does the hon.
quote my authority ?
member know about scriptural injunctions?
Mr. HIGGINS : It is a most unfriendly Mr. SYMON: We always turn the
statement to say that any member of the other cheek.
Convention has sneered at South Australia ! An Hon. MEMBER: Too much cheek !
302
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
do so.
Mr. SYMON: My hon. friend knows believe me when I say that I have sought
best whether he has too much cheek. Is to meet the challenge which he naturally
it that you in New South Wales want the and properly directed to those coming
federal capital to be in Sydney—is that specially from the smaller states.
what is the matter? I have heard it said Mr. HIGGINS : It is the first real attempt
-it has been said to myself, “ Give us the to meet the challenge!
federal capital, and I will go forfederation." Mr. SYMON: I accept that as a com-
The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. and pliment, at any rate, to myintention, what-
learned member think that this has any- ever may be the success of my effort.
thing to do with the question of equal
The Hon. E. BARTON: I have spent seven
representation in the senate?
or eight years in meeting it in New South
Mr. SYMON: I think so, sir; but if Wales, and if that is not complimentary
you, in that kindly way of asking me the enough to my hon. friend it ought to be!
question, really answer it yourself by put- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No
ting it, I will not deal with the question
wonder
my
hon. and learned friend is grey-
of the federal capital, except to say this :
headed !
that I do not wonder at it. I consider Mr. SYMON : Possibly I may not be
that Sydney—if my hon. friends opposite able to convince my hon. friend; at any
will not jump down my throat—is the rate, I have sought, as far as I could, to
metropolis of Australia.
My hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : After assures us, and asks us to accept the as-
Melbourne !
surance, that his desire is for federation.
Mr. SYMON: But it does not follow Let me assure him that I have only one
that it ought to be the federal capital. As . political aspiration, and that is for the
far as I am concerned, though I hope this union of these great colonies of Australia.
will not be considered final, I should be When the day of its accomplishment comes,
perfectly willing to have federation with 'I confess I shall walk with a prouder
the capital in Sydney, if we co’ld not get step on the soil which I love. To help to
it without.
bring about that consummation, I shall
An Hon. MEMBER :
concede much; I shall give way upon
Mr. SYMON: It is a delightful place; everything down to the bare essentials of
but I do not deal with that aspect of it. our freedom and existence as a separate
All I venture to say is that I hope that state, to which I humbly venture to think
the motives underlying the opposition to that equal representation is an essential.
the contention that there ought not to be I ask my hon. friend, to register a like
equal representation in the senate, are resolve, and I believe he will. As his heart
founded upon such grounds as were stated is in the cause let him remember that any
yesterday, which are really matters to be serious check to this movement now must
fully dealt with, as I am endeavouring to be fraught with the very gravest disaster.
deal with them, and not upon indirect Every year, I feel, will put us further
reasons. I thank hon, members for the at- apart. Generations may come and go be-
tention they have so kindly given to me.
fore we shall be so near to union as we
I am sorry that I have trespassed so much are now. By that time the years will
on the time of the Convention
have told their customary tale upon most
HON. MEMBERS : No, no !
of us. The marks which are made by the
Mr. SYMON : But I have sought, and "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
I hope my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, will may have deepened into fatal wounds. If
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
303
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australico Bill.
may be dim.
we are still here, our eyes and our energies of Victoria, and I wish to place before the
But the cause will not die. Convention as clearly as I can the views
It will live, and it will be accomplished. which I think, and indeed feel with very
Others will come after us greater than we- little doubt, are entertained by the popular
as these colonies must inevitably be greater chamber of the legislature of that colony,
than they are now - perhaps wiser than and by the great majority of the people.
we, possibly more earnest, and to them When the question was under discussion
will belong the glory and the triumph. I announced in no uncertain tones what I
But, for myself, I would anticipate that believed to be the resolve of the members
triumph. Let us share the glory of what of this Convention, and I stated-and hon.
I conceive to be a godlike task. If we, gentlemen who have, perhaps, followed
assembled in this Convention, do our part the debates of the Legislative Assembly
I have no fear whatever, in spite of all ap- in the official record which has been for-
prehensions, that the people will do theirs. warded to them will know—that it was
If we say "aye” the voice of the people not an easy task to obtain a vote in the
will respond with a grand "amen” that Assembly of Victoria in favour of equal
will roll round the world, and so swiftly representation. Very little, indeed, would
and surely will the harvest be reaped and have sufficed to turn the majority the other
the fruits gathered that the oldest nian way.
among us shall see it and rejoice.
Mr. HIGGINS : It was carried by the hon.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) member's influence !
[12:21]: I thoroughly agree with the ob- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It may have
servations that have been made by several been my influence to a certain extent. I
hon. gentlemen who have preceded me had to urge against what I believed to be
that the question now under consideration the logical result, against what I believed
is one of the most critical points in our to be the reason of the matter, the expedi-
discussion, and I thoroughly indorse what ency of yielding by way of concession this
was said by my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, doctrine of equal representation in the
that our decision upon this question is not senate; but I wish to make it perfectly
to be arrived at hastily or by a mere wave clear at the outset that had it not been
of the hand. Its own inherent importance, well understood by a great number, at all
apart from every consideration, is sufficient events, of those who composed the majority
to justify that position. The fact that it that the principle was assented to, not as
comes to us under the sanction of one of
a principle in reality, but as a concession
the most important legislative bodies in which would not carry with it the ordinary
Australia carries a weight that we can- results of a principle, their votes would
not disregard, and what impels me at the have been found registered on the other
present time more than any other mat- side. Speaking for myself I should have
ter to deal with it is this : that our deter- voted on the other side under those circum-
mination upon this question may carry stances. I do not in the smallest degree
with it a determination upon other ques- depart from the opinions which I ventured
tions. I think I am justified at this stage to express at Adelaide. I stated there,
of our deliberations in offering some views and my opinion has only been confirmed
upon the matter, because, in the absence
and strengthened by what has taken place
of the right hon. Premier of Victoria, it in Victoria, both in the Parliament and in
fell to my lot to conduct the federation
the press, that Victoria will not consent
debate through the Legislative Assembly to equal representation in the senate if
304 Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
that principle is to carry with it the con- possible, to avert, federation should not be
sequences that may be claimed to flow
accomplished on the present occasion, Vic-
from it by those who advocate its inser- toria would never, after the expiration of
tion on the ground of principle alone; a few years, consent to equal representation
and unless it is accompanied by certain
on any terms.
other provisions, which I believe will be An Hon. MEMBER: Nonsense !
consented to by this Convention, so as to
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I can assure
secure in the last resort the security to the my hon. friends that there is a continually
larger populations that they shall not be strengthening feeling that it is not correct;
interminably outvoted by thesmaller popu- and it does require--it did require, I know,
lations. Therefore, I desire to impress in my case, and in that of some of my col-
upon the Convention that they must not leagues--a considerable amount, may I say,
accept that vote of 45 to 36 as an indica- of courage, to place ourselves in opposition
tion in the smallest degree that the Vic- to a great number of men of our own
torian legislature-I am speaking now for way of political thinking-our own sup-
the popular house—or the Victorian people porters—men who are, perhaps, the strong-
assent to the doctrine, as such, of equal est advocates of popular government that
representation. Some of my hon. friends, Victoria contains. I wish to say—and I
more particularly Mr. Symon, have again may be permitted to say it now, once for
ventured to assert here that the principle all--that if my hon. friends who have
is defensible upon the ground of reason, cited precedent, who have quoted history,
and upon the ground of the inherent who have urged opinions of constitutional
nature of a federation. I do not say for writers, in defence of equal representation
one moment that my hon. friend and those as a principle, have done so in order to
who think and speak with him, are not follow it up by insisting upon the logical
justified in maintaining to the fullest extent consequences of that doctrine, then, I say
that opinion, or in regarding the arguments to them that it is perfectly hopeless so far
of the authorities they adduce as support- as our colony is concerned. I have sup-
ing them. On the other hand, I think it ported equal representation, because I re-
is beyond all contest that those who with cognise, as a fact, that the smaller colonies
myself regard that as a vicious principle, so-called—the less populous colonies—will
who regard it as indefensible on the ground not come into a federation without it. I
of reason and of logic, and who, further- recognise that as a matter of fact; it is a
more, regard it as branded with the dis- political fact, and it is a fact that has the
approbation of listory, are entitled to our justification of expediency. I am prepared
opinion also. I should like to say, further- to accept that position provided that, on
more, that the principle of equal represen-
the other hand, hon. gentlemen represent-
tation in the senate was never so well un- ing other colonies are prepared to meet
derstood in Victoria as it is at the present Victoria on terms on other subjects.
moment. The debates in this Convention, The Hon. H. DOBSON : And yet the
the criticisms upon those debates that have hon and learned gentleman will not give
appeared in the press, have been gradually, us the logical consequences of it !
in my opinion, convincing a larger and The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: My hon.
larger area of our people that equal repre- friend, by his observation, entirely justi-
sentation is not correct as a principle, and fies what I have just said. He demands
I
very much doubt if, by any unfortunate
from us the logical consequences of equal
mischance, which it is our duty to try, if representation.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
305
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
He says :
The Hon. H. DOBSON : No, I do not. my hon. and learned friend, Mr. Symon,
My mind is quite open on that point. I referred-Freeman-is one sentence which
want to have federation, and I will take I think contains the matter in the smallest
it at any price at which I can get it. I compass and in the clearest words that it
will take it at any price at which I can get is possible to use.
it from the wisdom of this Convention, The state administration within its own range
backed up by the common-sense of the
will be carried on as freely as if there were no
such thing as the union. The federal adminis-
people.
tration within its own range will be carried on
An Hon. MEMBER : Perfectly safe! as freely as if there were no such thing as a
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I hope that
separate state.
my hon. friend does not feel that he has That is the doctrine of Freeman, and I
committed himself ; but I cannot help ob- cannot understand why it is being insisted
serving that my hon, and learned friend, upon that equal representation in the sen-
Mr. Symon, with the vigour which dis- ate is to be regarded as any sign at all of
tinguishes him, put the whole thing in a state autonomy. The nearest approach to
nutshell when he said that equal repre- the preservation of the sign of state auto-
sentation in the senate is tbe one visible nomy is in a confederation; but my hon.
sign of the autonomy of the states. I ven- and learned friend must know that, even
ture, with great respect, to differ from him in the earliest form of confederation in
on that point. As I understand the mat- America, though equal representation was
ter, the visible sign of state autonomy given, the reason of it was not because the
consists in the reserved powers.
states were equal, but a very different
An Hon. MEMBER: The states govern- reason. My hon. and learned friend, if he
ments !
turns up a very recent work-"Foster on
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The states the American Constitution” will find
governments ?
that even before there was a confederation
Mr. SYMON: In the federation !
when the American colonies were dis-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The states, satisfied with the British Government, and
as states, according to my view, have no they met in their Continental Congress in
place in the federation. We find, at the 1774, their first resolution was in these
present moment, a host of authorities, words :
powers, and jurisdictions, in the hands of That in determining questions in congress,
the several states. We have come to
each colony or province shall have one vote, the
congress not being possessed of, or at present
the conclusion that a number of those
able to procure, proper material for ascertaining
powers, and authorities, and jurisdictions the importance of each colony.
could be better wielded by some central
That was the reason, and Mr. Foster goes
authority — better than by leaving them
on to say:
under the control of the states
The larger states were never able to procure
create, as we hope, a federal authority, not an alteration of this rule,
a state authority in any respect, but a Then they had their confederation; and
federal authority—a national authority, I he says in effect—he does not use these
prefer to call it—to wield those powers words, but he says in effect—that the equal
and to exercise those authorities and juris- representation of the states in the senate
dictions, and leave the states as they now has undergone a considerable modification.
stand in respect of all other matters. The He tells us that, though there has been no
residuum of power is the visible authority need of its interposition to protect the
of the states ; and in the book to which smaller states from any encroachment by
and we
306
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
1
the larger states, until the Civil War the has taken a turn that never was antici-
Senate was more conspicuously the guar- pated, that those eloquent words of Mr.
dian of state rights in general. I am not Justice Story, which were quoted by my
going to take up the time of the Conven- hon. friend, Mr. Symon, and which were
tion by making long quotations; but he written, I think, some two or three years
goes on to point out that the senators from before the Civil War
the various states regarded themselves as Mr. SYMON : They are repeated in the
ambassadors from sovereign powers rather latest edition !
than as members of a federal legislature. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But Mr. Jus-
However, he also says:
tice Story has not lived to write any new
These doctrines are now abandoned.
edition. There was one in 1858. At all
So that, if my hon. and learned friend events, the words written by Mr. Justice
goes to the very root foundation of this Story were written not in anticipation of
question, he will not find its insertion in that terrible convulsion that we know of as
the American Constitution based on any
the Civil War; and the very
words that my
ground of principle. The truth is that the hon. friend read—how do they look in the
American Constitution—I desire to place light of subsequent events? Absolutely
this clearly before the Convention the falsified. How has the constitution effected
American Constitution is recognised to-day all the peace, the quietness referred to in
by their foremost political writers--I may those words of Mr. Justice Story? It is
mention Mr. Macy, who has just published idle for any gentleman to quote a consti-
his work on the English Constitution, and tutional writer before the Civil War, be-
in that compared it with the American cause the later writers, and notably one
Constitution that the American Constitu- whom I shall quote, Dr. Burgess, who has
tion of to-day is not the same constitution written as late as 1895_these writers have
in substance as that which was originally told us in the plainest possible manner
passed—that the whole flood of judicial what is now the trend of the American
decision and official administration, and the Constitution. The hon. member, Sir John
whole trend of political thought, and, most Downer, I think hardly treated Mr. Higgins
of all, that great convulsion, the Civil War, well yesterday. He said that my hon.
have led to, in many respects, an entirely friend, Mr. Higgins, had entirely given
different view of the American Constitution. himself away by admitting that federation
He points out that the American Constitu- was a compromise. Is not the argument
tion has developed from a mere gathering of nearly every hon. member of this Conven-
of so-called sovereign states united under
tion that the whole of this constitution
what was then understood to be a federal must be founded on compromise? If it
constitution into what has gradually be- were not to be founded on compromise
come to be looked upon more and more with regard to equal representation, the
as a national state. We have been asked Victorian delegates would have a very
to produce the opinions of leading con- short task indeed, and I think the New
stitutional writers in America.
I can
South Wales delegates, many of them at
assure hon. gentlemen that the prevailing all events, would be in the same position.
opinion, the growing opinion of American But most of all did my hon. friend, Sir
writers and American politicians, is that
John Downer, bring forward an argument
the federal authority is becoming greater which, while possessing, as all his argu-
and greater, that the development of the ments do, great power, was lacking in one
American Constitution since the Civil War thing. He said that if the American Con-
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
307
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
stitution was so faulty in regard to equal Degrees of nullification had taken place in
representation, would it not have been some states, and the federal army had been
changed at the termination of the Civil called upon to assert the federal jurisdiction
War, when the northern armies, victorious and authority. The matter reached its
and irresistible, were in the field ? I ven- climax when the Civil War broke out, and.
tured to interject at the time that the one then for the first time I believe for the last
provision in the American Constitution time—the American nation met the con-
which is substantially unalterable, because federacy on the field of battle. The con-
it requires the consent of every state, is federacy fell, the nation emerged victorious.
the provision preserving equal representa- But it was necessary in order that the fruits
tion in the senate.
of that tremendous contest might be pre-
Mr. HIGGINS : And that is in the bill served that there should be an amendment
here !
of the constitution. Without the seceding
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Therefore, stales agreeing, or a sufficient number of
the hon. member will see that, in that re- them, that amendment was impossible. In
spect, his argument was not as cogent as 1866 the Congress passed the 14th amend-
his arguments generally are.
Let me take ment of the constitution, giving to the
the hon. member a little further, and ask negroes the right of the suffrage, providing
him to carry his mind back to what that that certain confederate leaders should not
irresistible army was established for; and hold certain offices either in the federation
let me point out to him that the American or in their own states, and providing cer-
Constitution, with all the boasted elasticity tain other things regarding the debts.
referred to in those eloquent words of Mr. The Congress sent that amendment to the
Justice Story, was unable to stand the strain states for ratification. The seceding states,
of a people determined on having greater strong in the literal construction of the
freedom than they had hitherto enjoyed. constitution, refused to ratify it—defied
Mr. SYMON: It did stand the strain, and the federal government. What was done?
emerged from the fire triumphant!
Was the constitution strong enough to
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Was the stand the strain? Was the constitution
army to destroy the constitution it was so elastic as to provide for such a matter ?
sworn to preserve ?
Certainly not. Congress then passed, on
Mr. SYMON: To amend it!
the 2nd March, 1867, what is known as
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Will my the iron law. They divided the “seces-
hon. friend permit me to proceed to show sia," as it was called, into five military
that his observations are not justified by districts. They placed a commander over
history? We know perfectly well that each, and they told the southern states
under the terms of the American Consti- that until they did ratify that 14th amend-
tution no amendment can be made unless ment they should have no representation
certain conditions are complied with, the whatever in the Congress. There was the
only one material to this being the consent irresistible argument that the hon. mem-
of three-fourths of the legislatures of the ber, Sir John Downer, referred to. And
states. The Civil War was the final out- in order that the necessary provision might
break of a gathering and growing feeling of be made so as to maintain the Union rather
antagonism that had prevailed almost from than the paper constitution, the Congress
the inauguration of the constitution. Con- went further. It laid down as a condition
tests had been waged in the courts between that conventions should be held in those
the national party and the state party. rebellious states, that they should pass new
.
308
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
men
state constitutions, that they should elect the statesmen, the judges who, from time
new state legislatures, which legislatures to time, have gone on and interpreted that
should ratify the 14th amendment.
constitution, and have to a very great ex-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The same tent changed it from the mere form and
force might have been used to bring about letter in which it was first cast, and brought
proportional representation !
it into the condition in which it is to-day.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Not so easily. Let me, as I promised to do, read what
Let me take the matter a little further. that learned writer, Dr. Burgess, says on
The district commanders under military this subject at the present day —
control had the supervision of registration The Hon. R. E. ('CONNOR: What does
of elections, and other matters connected the hon. and learned member intend to
with it, in their hands; all but three of the
quote from?
states— Virginia, Mississippi, and Tennes-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Dr. Burgess,
see-ratified under these compulsory con- as hon. gentlemen know, has written a
ditions. The constitution was literally frac- very instructive work upon the constitu-
tured under the power of that conquering tion. In the Political Science Quarterly
army. In July, 1868, three-fourths of the Review, volume 10, pages 408 to 418, will
states had, according to the decree of Con- be found some of the extracts which I
gress, ratified, and it went into operation. intend to read. I do not intend to read
Even then the three states I have men- all that is printed on those pages; but at
tioned were not admitted to any repre-
page 416 of this very fine essay, on what
sentation in Congress until they had rati-
he calls the “ Ideal American Common-
fied the 14th amendment, and another
wealth,” he says:
amendment, the 15th, which had been The language of the constitution of 1787 may
forced upon them. I appeal to my hon.
be construed, and I think should be construed,
as changing a confederacy of sovereignties into
friend whether history does not confirm the
a national state with federal government, that
view we take that the constitution, unless is with a system of government in which the
it is so framed as to give full play to thə
powers are distributed by the national constitu-
tion either expressly or impliedly, specifically
will of the people as it may be expressed at
or generally, between two sets of government
any particular time, is not liable to such
organs, largely independent of each other. Yet,
convulsions as may imperil the very exist- on the other hand, it may be construed with
ence of the state. We do not want such ter-
much show of logic as having simply substituted
the people of the several states for their legisla-
rible convulsions here. Heaven forbid they
tures, that is for the organic bodies in the con-
should ever come near us ! But we want to federate constitution of 1781. A very large por-
make the danger of equal representation, tion of the population of the whole country at one
unless this principle is counterbalanced by
time—and for a long period a large majority of
the population-held this latter view. Even now
such other provisions in the constitution as
it is possibly held by a majority of our people.
may avert anything like the consequences But I think this theory is now wholly erro-
that history, if we were not blind to it, tells neous. It will not fit the facts of our history
us have occurred in the United States,
since 1860. Those facts can be explained only
upon the theory that federalism with us now
perfectly clear. It is all very well for
means a national state, with two sets of govern-
hon. gentlemen to go back to the views of
mental organs, largely independent of eaclı
the Philadelphia Convention, to bring for- other, but each deriving its powers and authori.
ward the letter of the American Constitu-
ties ultimately from a common source, namely,
the sovereignty of the nation.
tion—the bare words of that.constitution.
And this conception of a governmental sys-
We must go further than that. We must
tem I claim to be purely an American product.
not be deaf to the voices of the orators, It is, however the true ideal of federalism, and
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
"Commonwealth of
309
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
all other nations must, I believe, ultimately led him to the perusal of numerous pass-
come to it. It reconciles the imperialism of the
ages in various works which should have
Romans, the local autonomy of the Greeks, and
convinced him that democracy, as we un-
the individual liberty of the Teutons, and pre-
serves what is genuine and endearing in each.
derstand it to-day, was totally unknown
Hon. members do not need me to remind
then, and that the founders of the Ameri-
them that the two sets of governmental
can Constitution feared democracy. No
organs referred to are, the federal govern-
one could peruse the debates of the Phila-
ment, having charge of those matters which
delphia Convention without being convinced
are of common import, and the state go-
of that. We had men there saying, "What
vernments, which have charge of matters
have the people to do with this matter;
which are purely provincial. At pages 408
it is dangerous to trust the people with
to 410, Dr. Burgess says:
this power ?" If they were so democratic,
I do not think that it need be feared that the
and did not fear the people, why was it pro-
doctrine of the sovereiguty of the several states
vided that the senators should be elected
will again seriously threaten this development. by the state legislatures ? There is no room
The Civil War fixed the principle of our
for doubt on the subject, and, to repeat a
polity, that the nation alone is the sovereign,
that the nation alone is the real state. We do
quotation which I made use of on a former
still hear, indeed, the phrase "sovereignty of occasion, the fathers of the American Con-
the states within their respective spheres": but stitution, in their fear of a rise of democracy
this only signifies that we have not yet invented
the new forms of expression to fit the new order
“ate sour grapes, and their children's teeth
of things. All that we can now mean by the old
were set on edge." There is no doubt that if
phrase is : that realm of autonomy reserved to they could have risen thirty years ago, and
the states by the sovereignty of the nation de- seen the work that the doubts and diffi-
clared through the constitution.
culties of their constitution have produced,
While I admit most unaffectedly and most they would have been appalled. What
unfeignedly, that opposite opinions, sup- they did, as the hon. member, Mr. Hig-
ported as they are by many learned writers, gins, so ably put it, was to make the best
are entitled to the greatest possible weight, constitution under the circumstances, and
I think I have said enough to convince a marvellously good constitution it was
hon. members that the opinions we venture under those circumstances. Their duty
to support are the views entertained by and their plain desire was to get the best
later writers and statesmen. As Professor constitution they could under threatening
Macy, whose work I heartily commend to circumstances, and leave the consequences
the perusal of hon, members, points out, to be worked out by those who came after
the idea of democracy is of modern origin.
them. Massachusetts, great state that it
We know perfectly well that democracy was, received the constitution—how? It
was unknown at the time the Federal Con-
accepted it by only 187 votes to 168. One
stitution of America was formed, and that
of the greatest American statesmen who
some of the men who framed that constitu-
ever lived, John Quincy Adams, tells us
tion had strong leanings towards a mon- in words of almost living fire, that it was
archial system of government.
a constitution "wrung from the necessities
The Hov. J. H. HOWE: How could of a reluctant people."
democracy be unknown to them, when
[The Chairman left the chair at 1:1 p.m.
the constitution declares all men to be
The Committee resumed at 2 p.m.-Committee
equal ?
counted.]
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS.: I am sure The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : My hon.
that the hon. member's reading must have friend, Mr. Synion, dwelt at considerable
310
dustralia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(10 SEPT., 1897.]
length upon the fact that no complaint The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I think he
whatever had been made by any persons does; he points out that it is an inequality
or writers with regard to equal represen- and therefore an injustice to allow the
tation. My researches have brought to smaller populations to have the same voice
my knowledge a good many observations in taxation matters as have the larger
made in public journals, and in various populations.
recognised works on the subject which, Mr. McMILLAN : He is a very conserva-
to my mind, tell distinctly the story that tive writer!
there is a great and growing dissatisfaction The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : He is; and,
with the principle of equal representation therefore, his testimony upon this point
-certainly not to such an extent as exists is so much the stronger, because that ad-
with regard to the mode of election of the mission has to be made. An American
Senate, and some other matters. I shall writer, Professor Alden, in an essay-—"The
not attempt to detain the Convention with World's Representative Assemblies of to-
any number of extracts, but I shall refer day"—to be found in the "John Hopkins'
to two recognised writers, whose writings University Studies for 1893," vol. xi, page
I think distinctly point in the direction I 61, writes in these terms:
indicate. One is Sir Henry Maine-an As the states of the American Union vary
undoubted authority. He points out that
greatly in population, the disproportionate re-
which is not generally recognised—that presentation of the minor states-notable even
at the adoption of the constitution has become
this doctrine of equality of state represen- excessive. In Nevada 21,000 persons are repre-
tation in the Senate is not at root equality sented by a United States senator ; in New York
at all, but is inequality. He takes the nearly 3,000,000, a ratio of 1 to 40. These
trouble to point that out in at least two
are extremes. In Wyoming and Idaho a sena-
tor's constituency is 30,000 to 40,000; in Penn-
places in his valuable work on popular
sylvania, Ohio, and Illinois it is 2,000,000 to
government, and at page 186 he says:
3,000,000.
The Senate of the United States is in strict
This gentleman, therefore, does refer in
ness no more a democratic institution than is the
House of Lords. As I shall point out in the
termos of, I should think, disapprobation to
following essay, it is founded on inequality of the disproportionate or, he calls it, exces-
representation, not on equality.
sive representation in some states as com-
He does point it out in the following essay. pared with the representation in other
A reference is made to the subject on page states. Therefore, I think I am justified
227, where he says :
in the observation I made in the course of
It is very remarkable that the mode of choos. the hon. member, Mr. Symon's, speech
ing the Senate finally adopted did not commend
that there were writers who did look upon
itself to some of the strongest minds einployed
on the construction of the federal constitution.
this principle with disfavour. I have re-
Its first article provides, in section 3, that the ferred to an English writer, and to an
“Senate of the United States shall be composed American writer. I know that the hon.
of two senators from each state, chosen by the
member contemns newspaper articles, and
legislatures thereof, for six years.” Hence it
follows that the Senate is a political body of
in a speech which I had the honorto deliver
which the basis is not equality but inequality.
in Victoria I did refer to newspaper articles
Each state elects no more and no fewer than two with which, however, I will not trouble the
senators. Rhode Island, Delaware, and Mary-
Convention now. This question, however,
land have the same representation in the Senate
seems to be dealt with at somegreater length
as the great and populous states of New York and
Pennsylvania. The constitutional composition of than I anticipated would have been the
the Senate is, therefore, a negation of equality. case, and I should, therefore, think myself
Mr. McMILLAN : Does he condemn it! wanting, since we are on the subject of
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs,
Commonwealth of
311
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
equal representation being a legitimate federation to take all the burden of the
principle in itself or a mere concession, if first few heavy years of its existence.
I did not refer to two authorities, with And then it says both to those states who
one of whom hon. members are more or stand out and which afterwards wish to
less familiar, and with the other of whom come in and also to future states that may
they are, perhaps, not so familiar upon the be created
federal theory. I should like, however, The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
before quoting them, to draw attention to Where from?
one very important circumstance. It is The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : By subdivi-
conceded by a majority of the Convention, sion or it may be from elsewhere.
at all events it is embodied in the 114th The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: As
clause of the bill it has adopted, that existing at the time of the establishment
future states entering the federation shall of the commonwealth !
be put on terms which will not give them The Hon. I. 8. ISAACS : No; the hon.
equal representation in the senate. If gentleman is not quite accurate in that
that be so, and if they are to be admitted respect; but it contemplates either of these
into a federation so-called without equal cases being met, and the commonwealth
representation, what becomes of the argu- being able to say to them, “If you wish
ment that equal representation in the to come in, we are perfectly willing to
senate is essential to a federation ?
admit you; but upon ternis, both as to
The Hon. H, DOBSON: The clause is a representation in the legislature and other-
mistake—it ought to come out of the bill ! wise.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What be- The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: Clause
comes of the argument that equal repre- 114 says nothing about admitting new
sentation is essential to a federation under states !
these circumstances ? Does it not at once The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It does not
dispose of the argument that equal repre- perhaps use those precise words, and I
sentation of all the states is essential to may not have conveyed my meaning to
such a form of government?
the right hon. gentleman. What I mean
Mr. SOLOMON : That clause contemplates to say is that it contemplates the exist-
the subdivision of existing states rather ence at some future time of states that
than new states !
may not have equal representation in the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It cannot senate.
contemplate the subdivision of states; it The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
may contemplate the subdivision of exist- Not existing states !
ing colonies, and it contemplates more The Hon. 1. A. ISAACS : Yes, cer-
than that. It contemplates existing colo- tainly ; existing colonies which do not
nies without subdivision entering into the enter into the commonwealth at the time
commonwealth after its establishment. It of its establishment.
contemplates the contingency that there Mr. LYNE: Supposing Queensland comes
may be some colonies which will wait and in afterwards!
see how the commonwealth progresses be-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Of course,
fore they decide to cast in their lot with that is a case in point. The only colonies
it. It contemplates their waiting to be that will be named in clause 114 are colo:
certain whether the commonwealth is going nies that do not come in at the time of the
to be a success or a failure, and allowing establishment of the commonwealth, which
other states which are willing to join the have not adopted the constitution. It is
312
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
clause says:
the same principle; the idea is right; the its essential points—that is one point with-
existing colonies which have not adopted out which federalism cannot exist–equal
the constitution.
representation of the states.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : Mr. SOLOMON : Is that not an argument
Queensland is named in the interpretation for amending clause 114?
clause !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is an argu-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Will the hon. ment to show that the majority of this con-
member permit me to say that I am per- vention do not believe thatequal representa-
fectly right in what I am stating. The tion in thesenateis essential to a federation.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It is a prin-
The parliament may from time to time ad- ciple that is departed from !
mit to the commonwealth the existing colonies The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I am only
of
pointing out that if this clause is retained,
I hope there will be none to be named, but
and I believe it must be retained and it
there may be some to be named. For ex-
is only fair to retain it-it brings us back
ample, and I hope no exception will be
to our original contention that equal repre-
taken to the statement, Queensland and
sentation is to be assented to, not as a
Western Australia may be admitted after-
principle, but as a concession.
wards.
An Hon. MEMBER :
Mr. LYNE: Or New Zealand !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It may be
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes, New one of the terms; but the principle and
Zealand. Very well, supposing they are the argument are the same. It is not
named, it will be in the competency of the equal whether it is larger or smaller.
commonwealth, after its establishment, on Mr. SOLOMON : It may not be !
the application of any of these colonies, to The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Therefore it
admit them into the commonwealth as
seems to me that that very principle dis-
states, and to admit them upon terms, poses of the argument that it is essential to
which terms may or may not include equal federation. If we turn to the recognised
representation or the reverse. Therefore
authorities, we have Mr. Dicey on the con-
I
say,
if that should be so, we will have in stitution supporting my position. What
the commonwealth one, two or three colo-
does he say is the fundamental idea of
nies without equal representation in the federalism? He says in his "Law of the
senate, and yet admittedly forming part Constitution," pages 131-132 :
of the confederation.
A federal state. is a political contrivance in-
Mr. WALKER: It is the original states tended to reconcile national unity and power
that require equal representation !
with the maintenance of state rights.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No doubt,
These state rights of course hon. members
but the new states may or may not have
will see are those which are conserved by
that equal representation. Therefore, my
the constitution to the states separately.
point is, if there be states that come in
He goes on to say:
The end aimed at fixes the essential character
on these terms, which may be of such a
of federalism. For the method by which feder-
nature that equal representation is not
alism attempts to reconcile the apparently in-
guaranteed to them, we should have a con- consistent claims of national sovereignty and of
federation of states, some with equal re- state sovereignty consists of the formation of a
constitution under which the ordinary powers of
presentation among themselves, and others
sovereignty are elaborately divided between the
with less representation. Therefore, how
common or national government and the separate
can we say that federalism has as one of states. The details of this division vary under
[The Hon. I. 4. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
313
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Billi
every different federal constitution ; but the main theory and constitution of federal govern-
general principle on which it should rest is ob- ment. On this depends the principal working
vious. Whatever concerns the nation as a whole of the new system ; and the real object which
should be placed under the control of the national we have in view is to give to the central govern-
government. All matters wbich are not prima- ment those high functions and almost sovereign
rily of common interest should remain in the powers by which general principles and uni-
hands of the several states,
formity of legislation may be secured on those
Then he goes on to refer to the preamble
questions that are of common import to all the
provinces, and, at the same time, to retain for
of the Constitution of the United States,
each province such an ample measure of muni-
and he quotes it. He says:
cipal liberty and self-government as will allow,
The tenth amendment enacts that “the powers
and indeed compel, them to exercise these local
not delegated to the United States by the Con-
powers, which they can exercise with great
stitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are
advantage to the community."
reserved to the states respectively, or to the I quote these high authorities to show
people. These two statements, which are re-
what their view of federalism is. They
produced with slight alteration in the Constitu-
tion of the Swiss Confederation, point out the
may be right, they may be wrong; but I
aim and lay down the fundamental idea of do claim this from the authorities I quote
federalism.
that the later thinkers, the later writers,
So, according to his view, the fundamental the later speakers, and authorities, both in
idea of federalism does not consist in hay. politics and out of politics, are those who
ing in the federal sphere two houses based express the opinion that federalism con-
on different foundations, but in having the sists in dividing the powers and authori-
powers and jurisdictions and the subject- ties into two distinct portions. On one side
matter so divided that one part belongs
we have the federal, the national, sphere,
entirely to the national sphere and the and on the other we have the state sphere,
other part to the separate state spheres.
and neither must intrude into the other.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : No, they over-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : The whole
lap!
tenor of Dicey is against the hon. member!
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Perhaps the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: What I have
hon. gentleman does not agree with the stated is the true doctrine of federalism.
writer.
I admit that it is a bargain. I admit
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: I agree with that you can have federalism which does
him, but not with the hon. member! depart from that true principle. I think
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The other in this federation we must depart from
reference I shall make is to a speech that principle. I will not go so far as
made on a memorable occasion by Lord my hon. friend, Mr. Symon, who says
Carnarvon, when he introduced the Brit- "It is my only political ambition,” but I
ish North America Act for the establish- do distinctly say that the highest politi-
ment of the Canadian federation. Hon. cal aim I have is to see Australia united
gentlemen will find it in a book now in in one national government. I am entirely
the library, “Wheeler's Confederation Law amongst those who desire-and I say it
of Canada," published in the present year,
with all the earnestness and sincerity of
page 169. I am quoting from the book which I am capable—that we shall have
which gives the speech :
at the earliest possible moment an Aus-
Referring to the distribution of powers, he
tralian union. And to gain that I am
said :-“I now pass to that which is, perhaps, willing, I am eager-I will go as far as
the most complicated and most important part that, because I know that without it it is
of this measure, the distribution of powers
between the central government and the local
impossible—to make known my view, and
authorities. In this, I think, is comprised the to concede equal representation to the less
7
314
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
populous states. I have fought for that large, and I believe an overwhelming, body
under very great difficulties; I am pre- of public opinion, that will not enter into
pared to fight for it again. I want to a federation unless we have a fair consider-
assure hon. gentlemen from the less popu- ation in other respects shown to us.
lous states that our strong desire in Vic- An Hon. MEMBER:
toria is that the federation of Australia The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : My hon.
shall be complete, that we shall have the friend's opinions are always entitled to
whole range of the Australian colonies respect, and I am always ready to yield
amongst us from the very beginning. We that. He will have an opportunity of ex-
desire that earnestly; we are prepared to pressing his opinions. I am expressing
make sacrifices for it; but I want to re- what I think is the state of opinion in
mind hon. gentlemen that it is no use tell- Victoria. I have always played with cards
ing us, when we urge some of our views, on the table; I have never concealed my
that we are playing into the hands of the opinions. I have never endeavoured to
enemies of federation, because they look twist them for a particular moment, and
only, as it appears to me, when they make hon. members know that I expressed in
that observation, at their own colony. They
Adelaide the same views as I am express-
forget that there is a great body of public ing to-day, and they have been strengthened
opinion in Victoria which, if we do not and confirmed by what I have learned
gain from the smaller colonies the same since. Therefore, baving that great aspir-
consideration as we are prepared to give ation, of which we may all be justly proud,
them in this respect, will decline to have that we want a federation of Australia at
federation. We are going to help them to the earliest possible moment, I do ask of my
get it. But what we desire is to get a hon. friends from the other colonies, when
federation which will carry out the very we come to the later portions of this bill,
first words of the preliminary resolution when we come to the questions which will
which was carried at Adelaide-to enlarge present themselves as to the powers of the
our powers of self-government. I have senate, and as to the means of settling
no fear about equal representation, accom- deadlocks, that they will recognise in their
panied with the safeguards I desire. I do turn what we are recognising on our side
not even go to the length that some of now, that without conciliation, without
my hon. friends do; but I will apply in this compromise, without recoguising andallow-
respect the observation of my right họn. ing for the great body of public opinion
and learned friend, Mr. Kingston : "There amongst the populous colonies, federation
may be no danger ; but there is a consider- will be impossible.
able amount of fear.” I will apply that to Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [2:26]:
what I am now saying, as he applied it to I only continue this debate because I
what he was saying this morning, and you agree with what fell from my hon. friend,
have to make allowance for that, just as Mr. Carruthers, that it might be to the
we are making allowance for the fact that, interest of Australian union in this colony
no matter what my hon. friends from the
if the Convention did not appear in any
smaller colonies may think, no matter how, way to slur over the discussion of this
like the hon. and learned member, Mr. matter. But I candidly confess that, in
Glynn, they may admit that logic will bring my view, it is a discussion which appears
them to our view, their people will not to be more suited to a debating society
enter into this federation without equal than to a serious political Convention,
representation; so in Victoria, we have a because I regard the equality of Austra-
.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Cominonwealth of
315
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
lian states—and I limit my remarkis tó matters of common concern the two states
Australia—as one of those essential po- should be united. If that view had been
litical facts which we ought no more to taken in 1851, Victoria would be to-day a
be called upon to justify than we are part of New South Wales. But I have
called upon to justify the principles of always understood that that on which Vic-
Magna Charta, or of trial by jury. I feel torians pride themselves more than any-
very much inclined to treat the argu- thing else was that they achieved å
ments that have been urged with great separate and independent national exist-
force, and in a most interesting fashion, ence by their separation, which they cele-
against équal representation as that great brate every year, I believe, by a national
moralist, Dr. Johnson, treated the argu- holiday. It is because Victorians do not
ments which were urged against free-will, appear to me to bear in mind that the
when he settled that interminable meta- smaller states have exactly the same feeling
physical controversy in the single sentence with regard to their absorption by larger
-"Sir, we are free; and there is an ond states that the Victorians themselves had
on’t." I would say, as to this political in 1851 when they were a small state, that
controversy, “We are equal, and there is they fear to go into a union even for limited
an end on't.” I quite recognise that it is purposes. The smaller states fear to go
conceivable to base a federation on a differ- into a union for the limited purposes con-
ent theory; that, as my hon, and learned tained in this bill, which will place them
friend, Mr. Isaacs, said, “You might have completely at the mercy of the larger colo-
a federation in which it would be agreed nies, even though one of the larger colonies
that on certain matters there should be be New South Wales, which has always
à complete unification, whereas on other shown them a more sympathetic counten-
matters there should be absolute isola- ance than has Victoria. There is this
tion. I recognise freely that there may further fact : that no single movement
be a limited unification for certain sub- towards the achievement of the union of
jects, and as regards those subjects a com-
Australia has ever been made except upon
plete unification; but I decline to dis- the assumption of the equality of the states.
cuss these wire-drawn theories of political Every conference that has been held to
philosophers. We have to deal with facts deal with federal matters has proceeded
as we find them to-day, and it is because upon that basis. The larger state has had
to-day we are equal, because these states no more voting power than the smaller in
have a separate, independent, national dealing with any matter affecting the Post
existence, that we come to deal with this Office, the tariff, or defence. There has not
question of federation on the basis of the been a gathering of the states for any pur-
facts as they exist. I really regret, if I pose whatever throughout our history that
may be allowed to express my own opinion, has not given equal voting power and equal
that the views contended for so ably by strength and influence to the largest as well
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Isaacs,
as the smallest state of the continent.
did not find favour in Victoria in 1851. I An Hon. MEMBER: Take the Federal
deeply regret that his predecessors in office Council Act!
did not then take the view that he and his Mr. WISE : Yes, take the Federal
supporters take to-day, that for certain Council Act. Each state has equal voting
municipal purposes there should be a com- power under it. Take the very act under
plete independence, and separate action which we sit. It provides that each colony
of large states, and that for the larger shall send an equal number of delegates ·
3:16
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.)
here. In other words, it provides for and I notice the very large phrases about
equal representation. I am very glad it the power of the people, and the absolute
does. If it did not, we should be entitled right of the majority to prevail ; and I
to ten delegates and Victoria would only apprehend that they justify their demand
be entitled to nine. I believe the hon. for proportional representation on the
meniber, Mr. Higgins, occupies upon the ground of the absolute right of the majo-
Victorian list the same position as I occupy rity to rule in every case. I deny that the
on the New South Wales list. He was last rule of the absolute majority has ever
on the list. If it had not been for the been a principle either in the British Con-
equal representation which was agreed to stitution or in any of the constitutions of
in the Federal Enabling Act we should not these colonies. It is not the prevailing
bave had the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, principle to-day in Victoria. It is not the
sitting amongst us. I regret that he should prevailing principle in New South Wales
have turned with such unfilial ferocity or Tasmania. If it were, Sydney and the
upon a principle to which he owes his county of Cumberland would return to this
existence here. I contend that we, sun- parliament more than one half of the repre-
moned as we are to deal with existing sentatives of New South Wales.
facts, have to consider what is to be the Mr. HIGGINS: Does the hon, member
constitution for Australia. We are not propose that Bourke should have the same
making a constitution for Utopia. We representation as Sydney?
are not making a constitution for the Mr. WISE: No; but what has been
United States, and I decline to follow alto- acted upon in this colony and in every
gether Mr. Higgins or Mr. Isaacs in their other colony is that where you have dif-
new reading — very new reading I may ferent districts and separate local interests,
say—of old history. We are dealing with those districts should be represented irre-
facts as we find them, recognising that spective of the fact that they contain a
in every movement towards union, in minority of population. I care not for
every expression of its public opinion, each the theory which says that the majority
state now has an equal voice with every . ought always to rule. My answer is, that
other, and we are met to ask all the states the majority, as a fact, does not rule, and,
to surrender some of their equality. It personally, I think it is far preferable,
seems to me that when we make that within certain limits—based on the good
demand we are all justified in saying, "We sense of parliament and of the country-
will surrender some portion of our equal
that different interests should have a separ.
power, but we will not obliterate our sepa- ate representation, irrespective of popula-
rate national identity.” There is only one tion. I do not know how it may be in
way I know of by which the effective vot- Victoria, but I do know that the diver-
ing power in each state as a separate national gence of interests between Sydney and
identity can be preserved, and that is by the country is a constant source of con-
giving each state representation as a state. flict in this colony. I am told that there
If I am asked on what principle I jus- is the same divergence of interest between
tify that, I retort with another question, Melbourne and the country districts. I.
Upon whatprinciple do my friendsjustify wonder whether Mr. Isaacs or Mr. Higgins,
the proposal that there shall be propor- when they go back to Victoria, will urge
tional representation in both houses ?! I throughout the country districts of that
have read the speech of Mr. Higgins, and colony the absolute right of the majority
I have listened to the speech of Mr. Isaacs, to dominate over the minority. Could
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
317
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
they urge to the farmers and to the in- colonies are agricultural, pastoral, or min-
habitants of the country districts that be- ing communities, with no large city popu-
cause there is a larger population in Mel- lations. They see with the utmost clear-
bourne than in any otherquarter of thecom- ness that if proportional representation
munity, therefore there should be no re- is acceded to, they will be, in federal
presentation according to local districts, matters, as completely at the mercy of the
that the vote should be taken all through large urban populations of Sydney and
the country as one electorate, in order that Melbourne, as they decline to be in their
the overwhelming concentration of popu- local affairs to-day. It is the old contro-
lation in the city should have power to versy between town and country in a new
override the wishes of the minority. Would form; and that is why I do not appre-
they tell the electors in Melbourne, "you hend great difficulty in carrying this bill
are bond slaves ; you are serfs to the past the criticism of its opponents and en-
minority; you are the majority in Mel- suring the support of the popular majority
bourne, yet, owing to your absurd electoral in this colony. The momentit is perceived
system, which does not give one man in that equal representation means an assur-
Melbourne the same voting power as is ance to the country districts—to the agri-
given toone man in the country, the majority culturists, pastoralists, and miners of the
is ruled by the minority."
whole of the continent—that they shall
Mr. SYMON: It is not one vote one value! not be dominated by city populations who
Mr. WISE: It is not one vote one have little knowledge of their wants or
value, and it ought not to be, and no one little sympathy with their local interests.
wishes that it should be in local politics. Mr. HIGGINS: It can be all met in fixing
Why, then, do we ask for it in federal the districts !
politics ? We have adopted an electoral Mr. WISE: What I wish to make clear
act which goes nearer to one vote one is this : that the so-called small colonies
value than the electoral act of any other onlysmall in population-aresmall in popu-
of the colonies; but even then we have lation because their interests are chiefly
given a different quota for suburban and agricultural and associated with country
city districts than we have given for the pursuits. The colonies of Victoria and
country districts.*
New South Wales are large because we
An HON. MEMBER: Are the interests have two great concentrated city popula-
of the several states different in respect to tions. I, for one, think it would be a
the subjects of common import?
misfortune to put the control of the des-
Mr. WISE: No; I think they are tinies of Australia completely in the hands
exactly the same.
of the city populations of Melbourne and
An Hon. MEMBER: Then the analogy Sydney. I am sure, when this matter is
does not apply !
properly understood by the country voters,
Mr. WISE: I think the demand for not only of this colony but of Victoria, this
proportional representation which is being demand for proportionalrepresentation will
made now is exactly equivalent to that greatly lose its strength, and they will see
demand which has always been raised in that their interests are bound up with the
our local parliament, that the town shall maintenance of that which the smaller states
dominate the country. I believe the resist- are now insisting upon; equal representa-
ance to proportional representation arises tion of each colony in the senate. It is said
very largely from the fact that the smaller that there might be no diversity of interests
* Note by Mr. Fise on revision :- Omnit " given a different quota for suburban and city districts than we have given
for the country districts," and insert" in fact, differences between the numbers of electorates in order to secure adequate
representation of local interests."
:318 Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
between the small states and the large and, therefore, that it was in no way in-
states. I think that there is a diversity consistent, as a matter of principle, to urge
of interests, as I have already pointed out, that the states should no longer be treated
but I agree with my hon. friends in think- as states, he appeared to me to forget this
ing that, that diversity of interests will not -which is again a question of fact, not of
under any system of equal representation theory : We cannot frame any bill which
break out into open conflict between the will separate those interests which ought
small states and the large states. There is a to be handed over to the federal parlia-
diversity of interests which needs protec- ment from those that ought to be retained
tion; there is not any diversity of interests by the local parliaments so clearly as to
which is likely to lead to conflict. It does
It does prevent the possibility of question as to
seem strange that the statement that there what matters fall within the province of
should be no diversity of interests comes either. If we could, the problem would
from those who insist that there is a danger be solved.
be solved. If we could at once agree that
to the large states from conceding to the there were certain matters upon which
small states equal representation in the there could be unification, and if there
senate. If there is no conflict of interests were a clear and broad line drawn between
between the small states and the large those matters and the matters left to the
states, what have we to fear--we who re- states, I admit that there would be no state
present the large states? If the small states interests to conserve, no possibility of any
have no interests different from those of conflict arising. But has any such measure
the large states, how inconsistent it is to ever been drawn, has anyone ever pro-
argue that there will be a combination of posed it? This bill certainly does not
the small states against the large states ? make that line of demarcation clear. It
Mr. HIGGINS : What have any of the does not make it impossible that there
small states to fear!
should be any matters of states, as states,
Mr. WISE: I do not think they have which should be affected. We have a
anything to fear; but they have something clause in the bill which has been copied
to guard-something to guard, which, de- from the American Constitution—a most
spite criticism and theories, is perhaps more valuable one, without which federation
precious to them than logical consistency. would be incomplete—a clause providing
They have to guard their own historic the federal parliament with power to re-
identity, for which they care perhaps more gulate the commerce. The hon. and
strongly than we do, because such feelings learned member, Mr. Isaacs, knows very
are more strong in small communities than well that it is that clause which has given
in large ones. They care for their provincial rise to more disputes between the com-
history, and take pride in their past, and, monwealth and the states as states than
therefore, they decline to come into a union any other clause in the American Constitu-
if they have to give up powers to such an tion. I think that the state of New Jersey,
extent that they will be altogether merged for example, has been fiveor six times in the
in communities in which their own iden- Supreme Court, suing officers of the federal
tity will be obliterated. When the hon. government, or being sued by them, in order
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, remarked to assert those state rights which it claims
that later speakers were insisting that --sometimes successfully and sometimes
federation consisted in dividing the powers
unsuccessfully-are being infringed by the
and authorities—I think I am quoting his action of the federal parliament.
words exactly-into two distinct portions,
An HON. MEMBER :
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
319
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Austrcilice Bill.
:
Mr. WISE: I admit that. I am only
I am only the states are equal to-day, and that they
pointing out that if it were possible to are unwilling to surrender their equality,
draw a clear line of demarcation between is there any method.-a practical question
those matters on which we were to unify we have to deal with of recognising
and those matters distinctly conceded to that sentiment, which, whether well or ill
the local government, I would admit at founded, exists? It is that of giving some
once that there would be no state interests forna of representation to the states as
to be conserved. But as the bill now stands, states. I do not know that either the
I think it is undeniable that there are cer- hon. meinber, Mr. Higgins, or the hon.
tain interests of the state, as a state, which and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, would dis-
may be affected under the bill.
pute that. They boldly take the bull by
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Incidentally !
the horns, and, in the boldest and most
emphatic way possible, deny the right of
Mr. WISE: Incidentally-sometimes
states to have any representation what-
very seriously. If there are, there is some-
ever as states. Putting that on one side,
thing more than mere sentimental historic
justification with regard to the states being impracticable, are we not driven to the
not as illogical, but as unworkable and
equally represented. If they are not re-
conclusion that the only representation
presented in that way, they have no effec-
which is a possible one is representation
tive means of making their voice, as states,
on the basis of equality ?
heard. It is idle to say that a state which
Mr. HIGGINS: If the hon. and learned
has two representatives in a senate com-
posed of thirty-six members, and has seven
gentleman assumes that the other is im-
representatives in a chamber composed of practicable-yes!
eighty members, has any effective voting Mr. WISE: I do assume it, and the
power in either house.
I grant fully that hon. and learned member, Mr. · Isaacs,
the representation of opinion by the repre- assumes it.
sentatives of eaclı state does not necessarily The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I do not assume
ensure that those views shall prevail, and that it would be impracticable, but
that those opinions could be equally well
Mr. WISE: I understand the hon. and
represented by one representative as by
learned member to mean that it is not
six. But there can be no doubt that in
impracticable in Utopia, but it is in Aus-
the popular imagination—and this is a
tralia. I was very much struck by a curi-
matter in which we cannot afford to over-
ous omission in the arguments of the hon.
look sentiment, or in which we can appeal
and learned meinber, Mr. Higgins, and the
only to pure logic and reason-there can
be no doubt that in the popular imagina-
hon. and learned member, Mr. Isaacs. I
have always regarded the hon. member,
tion the effective voting power of six men
Mr. Higgins, as the apostle of proportional
representing a state, when they are equal representation, or of hostility to unequal
in number to the representatives of any
other state, is likely to carry far more
representation, and the hon. and learned
member, Mr. Isaacs, asserted that the
weight than the vote of two in a house of
objections to equal representation were
thirty-six.
thoroughly well understood in Victoria, or
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It would not
were getting more understood there every
be two in a house of thirty-six !
week. Why have they not given us an
Mr. WISE : I am assuming they are alternative scheme? What proposal do
not equal, but proportional. Finding that they offer ?
320 Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
In our
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The answer is the population to outvote the senators who
because, by a majority of 9, they thought represent a majority ? Under that scheme
there should be equal representation ! if you raise our representation to twelve,
Mr. WISE: But I ask my hon. and
and treat the others proportionately, you
learned friend for an alternative.
will find the figures work out this way:
Parliament here, the matter was discussed Although the majority in the combination
on one side only—there was no presenta-
of the smaller states is less, there will be a
tion of the view of the smaller states at all
majority still, and under any scheme you
in our Lower House. I ask the hon. mem- may propose, based on unequal representa-
ber, Mr. Higgins, now, “If you are not
tion, there will always be that danger.
going to have equal representation in the
The opponents of equal representation
senate, what is the alternative scheme”? never give this a moment's consideration.
Mr. HIGGINS: A compromise between
In the lightest and airiest fashion possible
proportional representation and equal re-
they simply will not have equal represen-
tation.
presentation !
They never suggest any other
Mr. WISE: What, compromise on a
scheme of representation that is workable.
Suppose, as has been assumed, that votes are
matter of principle! My faith in the hon.
member is completely shattered.
given to each colony, not strictly according
to population, but on a basis that will give
Mr. HIGGINS: I was prevented from
the larger states a larger proportional re-
answering the question fully by the howls
presentation in the senate.
One plan sug
around me.
I intended to say, compro-
gested here was that New South Wales
mise to meet the groundless fears of the
should have twelve senators, Victoria
smaller states !
should have twelve, Queensland eight,
Mr. WISE: If I thought the objections South Australia six, Tasmania six, and
to equal representation were as great, if Western Australia six. · Any one adding
I believed as strongly in the absolute rule
up those figures will find that New South
of the majority, as I understand Mr.
Wales and Victoria, the two large colo-
Higgins does, I should decline to com-
nies, who in these curious calculations are
promise. If you are going to compromise, always supposed to be going to combine
on what basis will you compromise? Is harmoniously, would have twenty-four
the question only to be, then, what degree votes, while the other four colonies com-
of inequality is to exist ? Will you admit bined would have twenty-six votes. I
that there is to be a certain amount of
throw out this challenge to some of these
inequality, or will you take your stand ingenious mathematical calculators who
boldly, as the Lower House in our Parlia- want to introduce their theories into the
ment has done, upon this, that there should practical working of Australian politics,
be absolute proportional representation ? I ask if they can suggest any system of re-
Mr. HIGGINS : I put forward a scheme presentation for each of the colonies in the
in Adelaide which proposed a compro- senate which has not an equal basis and is
mise !
not proportional, which will not be open to
Mr. WISE: I remember the hon. mem- exactly the same objection as that which is
ber's scheme, and I apply this test to it. urged against the system of equal repre-
Under the hon. member's scheme--I will sentation, namely, that a majority of sena-
not weary the House by working out the tors representing the smaller states, and,
figures in detail--would it not be possible therefore, representing a minority of the
for the senators who represent a minority of population, would be able to outvote a
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
321
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
minority of the senators representing a ought only to have one chamber. But I
majority of the population in the two larger find an overwhelming expression of public
states ?
opinion against that view.
Mr. HIGGINS : Assuming that you An Hon. MEMBER: There is only one
have three senators for the first 100,000, chamber in Ontario !
and one for every 200,000 more, you will Mr. WISE : One of the principal rea-
find you will have twenty-seven members sons why I hope to see federation accom-
of the senate, of which there will be seven- plished is that, I believe, the inevitable
teen from the larger states.
result will be that in a very few years
Mr. WISE: That might work out on
there will be only one chamher in all the
the present basis, but it would not work component states. But we have most en-
out as the populations altered.
phatically declared, not only by the several
Mr. HIGGINS : Quite so; but I answered
conventions, but by the popular voice
the hon. member's question !
throughout all the colonies, that federa-
tion should be accomplished with two
Mr. WISE: The hon. member does not
chambers. That issue was put directly to
suppose that we are framing a senate
for to-day. We are framing a senate for
the people of this colony ; directly to the
all time. It cannot be done on any basis people of Victoria ; directly to the people
of South Australia; and we have come
for permanent representation without ren-
here charged with an absolute mandate
dering it possible under certain circum-
fron the electors of the whole of Australia
stances for the smaller states to combine
to frame this constitution with a parlia-
and out-vote the larger states.
mentary machine composed of two cham-
Mr. HIGGINS : It all depends upon how
bers. Once concede that, and how impos-
the population alters. I cannot deal with
sible does it become to conceive of two
all the centuries at once !
chambers elected on the same suffrage, re-
Mr. WISE: But we have to frame a
presenting exactly the same class of people,
scheme which we can put forward to each
the same interests, with no difference what-
state, and point out to them that even in
ever between them, except that the second
the future they are not going to lose their
or revising chamber will have a longer
separate national identity, which will be
tenure of office than the other chamber?
preserved for all time, just as it is to-day.
An Hon. MEMBER : Not only a longer
Mr. McMILLAN : One state might ulti- tenure of office, but also continuity of
mately have a population greater than all existence !
the rest put together!
Mr. WISE: Just so. I was greatly
Mr. HIGGINS : And it should have more struck by one of many admirable speeches
votes !
in the debate in the Victorian Assembly
Mr. WISE: If we adopt the plan which -and I may be allowed perhaps to say
has been suggested—and the only alterna- here that there was no parliament which
tive plan which has been suggested by any appeared to me to discuss the Common-
legislature—that of proportional represen- wealth Bill with greater acumen and lucid-
tation, we are in this difficulty. Of what ity or to take a broader view of the situation
use is the second chamber ? I am one than the Parliament of Victoria, and I
of those who have long been in a hope think this was very largely due to the fair-
less minority here—like a voice crying in ness with which my hon. friend, Mr.
the wilderness in the belief that in all Isaacs, presented the bill, and the lucidity
local parliaments for state purposes we with which he explained its clauses. One
322
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
of the speeches on this point that made a colonies in which there has been a great
great impression upon me, and I wish it deal of misapprehension as to the meaning
had been more widely known, was that of of equality of representation, and in which
Mr. Deakin in dealing with this proposal, the question has been greatly obscured by
and I hope my hon. friend will give the the use of misleading analogies and the
Convention the benefit of his reflections statement of half truths, I propose to ask
on this matter before the debate closes, those who, on behalf of the large colonies,
I will only indicate briefly what was are afraid that they are going to give up
the trend of the argument of my hon. something, and surrender theinselves en-
friend, as I understood it. He pointed tirely to the mercy of the smaller colonies,
out that if the views of those who in- to consider a very few facts. When we are
sist that there shall be proportional re- told that one man in New South Wales is
presentation in the senate prevail, all hope to have only one-eighth of the voting power
of limiting the power of the second cham- of a man in Tasmania, and when pictures
ber is gone—all hope of securing re- are drawn, as we have seen them drawn,
sponsibility of government to the lower showing the big Tasmanian and the little
house is gone ; because it will be impos- New South Welshman
sible to deny to the second chamber co- The Hon. E. BARTON : They made the
equal powers with those exercised by the New South Welshman one sixty-fourth of
first, if you constitute it on the same pat- the size of the Tasmanian!
tern, representing the same constituency, Mr. WISE: That I should expect.
on the same franchise, and strengthen it We wonder how these ingenious calcu-
by giving it a longer period of existence lators come to forget the distribution of
and a continuity of existence. So if there
voting power in the election of the first
is any proposal more calculated to shock chamber. On the basis of this bill the
the true democrat, any proposal more voting power in the first chamber is as
likely to destroy the responsibility of min- follows:- New South Wales gets twenty-
isters and the people, and to destroy the six votes, Victoria twenty-four, Queens-
powers of the first chamber in dealing land nine-for I decline to discuss federa-
with money bills, and, in fact, to give up tion upon the hypothesis that Queensland
altogether those democratic demands with will not come in South Australia seven,
regard to the constitution of parliament Western Australia five, and Tasmania five;
which have been so loudly voiced both making seventy-six in all. Among these
here and outside, it is this proposal which seventy-six representatives New South
would suggest that the second chamber Wales, the colony which is going to be at
should be made stronger than the first, the mercy of the four small “robbers,” the
based upon the people's will just as the colony whom Queenslanders, South Aus-
first; but having a greater strength from tralians, Western Australians, and Tas-
having a longer tenure and a continuity manians are going to forget their divergent
of existence.
interests in order to combine to rob, has
Mr. HIGGINS : Does the hon. member actually more voting power than the whole
think that.continuity of tenure will make of them put together. Under these cir:
it stronger ?
cumstances, speaking as a representative
Mr. WISE: I do; and that is why I of New South Wales, it seems to me an
propose, later on, to limit its powers in the absolute travesty of the truth, if it is not
most effective manner possible. As I am something more serious—a deliberate mis-
speaking as a representative of one of the leading of the public to assert that by
[Mr. Wise.
Cominonwealth of
323
110 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
way!
granting equal representation the colony by the representatives of the two larger
of New South Wales is placed at the mercy states; but I absolutely deny that the power
of the other colonies.
of veto is the same power as the power of
An Hon. MEMBER : It is quite the other legislation.
The Hon. E. BARTON : If it is the power
Mr. WISE : It is quite the other way. of dominance, why do not the representa-
I could understand a Tasmanian saying, tive chambers claim that they shall have
“ If I am only going to have five represen- the power of veto alone, and give all their
tatives in a house of seventy-six, and only other powers to the upper chambers ?
two in a senate of thirty-six, I will not
Mr. WISE: That would be a very good
join the federation ;” but I cannot under- test of the sincerity of the objections of
stand a voter of New South Wales who is those who insist upon proportional repre-
acquainted with the facts having any such sentation.
fears.
Mr. HIGGINS : A veto along with a
Mr. HIGGINS: You admit that Tasmania strongly fixed senate which cannot be
has nothing to fear under a system of pro-
moved !
portional representation !
Mr. WISE: I am not dealing with the
Mr. WISE: The hon. member abso- question of a strongly fixed senate, but
lutely refuses to consider the historical with the question of equal representation.
and political sentiments of great peoples. An Hon. MEMBER ; It would be a good
I decline to discuss this question as if it thing if we had a strong senate in the
were a mere matter of chopping logic. I separate colonies to stop extravagant ex-
recognise that all the colonies have to a penditure !
certain extent separate interests, separate Mr. WISE: I hope that we shall not
histories, separate local traditions, and get into a budget discussion of the finances
pride in their provincial history. It is that of either Victoria or New South Wales.
local patriotism which I wish to foster, not I quite admit that a veto may in some cir-
to destroy. I venture to think that those cumstances be equivalent to a denial to
who have spoken so enthusiastically in the popular will of the achievement of its
favour of unification have ignored one of desire for a time; but I would point out
the most powerful causes of development a matter which I think has not received
in the United States, namely, the encour- the full consideration it deserves. The
agement to local patriotism afforded by the power of veto is far less troublesome to a
separate existence of the states, of which government exercising a delegated power
the outward and visible symbol in the than where there is a sovereign power.
federal parliament has been the equal re- The power of veto in the second chamber
presentation of the states in the senate. in the case of a state situated as we in
It is becarise this separate representation New South Wales, or as the people of
has impressed the popular imagination to Victoria are situated, might be a serious
keep alive the love of the provinces, and curb upon the popular will, an intoler-
has been one of the most stimulating factors able curb upon the popular vote. Because
in the development of the United States, each of these provinces is to-day, within
- that I desire to continue the proposal which very wide limits—so wide as to be almost
the bill contains. I admit that it would negligible—a sovereign body. The people
be possible under the bill for the repre- of each province have a potential right
sentatives of the smaller states to block a to legislate on any subject affecting the
proposal which was supported unanimously welfare and the good government of the
324
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
to say,
community. But the federal parliament through the constitution? With public
will have no such power. It will exercise opinion behind them, any ministry and
a strictly delegated authority, largely an any parliament may exercise their powers
authority conferred for the first time upon to the extremity of their constitutional
the voters of the commonwealth. If there limits. Without public opinion, neither
is a power of veto, that power will not de ministry nor parliament can exercise the
prive any voter of a single province of any smallest of its functions, and if public
power he exercises to-day; and it will not opinion determines that a certain course
prevent him from enjoying to the full shall be pursued, and if the large states
the power he enjoys to-day. On the con- have that public opinion, does anyone
trary, by federation he gets a larger effec- really believe that the smaller states would
tive voting power than he has to-day, be- be able to withstand that powerful force
cause his voice can be felt through the for many months? There is only one
ballot-box outside the limits of his own conceivable set of circumstances in which
state. All that the power of veto does is
the smaller states would be able to offer
" You shall not exercise that power
opposition to the will of the majority,
under certain conceivable circumstances to and that would be some circumstances
its utmost extent." Nothing is taken away
difficult to imagine-almost impossible to
from the voting power of the voters in the imagine--where the interests of all the
provinces, but new powers are granted to
smaller states as states were so seriously
them. There are some who seriously urge
threatened that it was a matter vital to
that because, under very unlikely, but their very national existence that they
hypothetically conceivable circumstances, should refuse to give way before public
you will not be able to exercise your opinion in the larger colonies. I say that
powers to the fullest extent, therefore, you
in such a case they ought notito give way.
should decline to accept any of them to
If there were a case—one can scarcely
aný extent.
Because you cannot get all imagine it—where the inhabitants of two
you want; because, under certain circum- larger colonies were so regardless of their
stances, you will not be able to do all you political responsibility as to pass a mea-
could do under other circumstances, there- sure intended to destroy the existence of
fore you will not come into this union, you the smaller states, I say that these small
will not accept any of the larger powers states ought to have the safeguard and
of government, that the bill offers to the
power of veto.
If the matter in dispute
people of Australia. I venture to think is one of those matters which have up to
that the difference between thepower of veto the present divided tbe voters of Australia
when exercised in a federal state and when into two classes, if it be a question between
exercised in a government which only exer-
progressivists and conservatives, then the
cises delegated authority, is such a material popular will of Australia will prevail. I
difference that it ought to remove most of, intend to propose, as I did in Adelaide, a
if not all, the fears of some that the popu-
scheme which, while securing to the states
lar will might not be able to find expres- the utmost protection which state interests
sion. But is there any serious doubt that require, will provide to the people in those
if the people of Australia, as a whole, are states an opportunity to compel their sena-
deliberately determined that their will tors to give proper effect to their wishes.
shall find expression in a certain direction, If we can construct a measure which will
they will discover the nieans of giving bring the senate into touch with popular
effect to their wishes, and find that means opinion in the states, and which will at
+
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
325
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
the same time give to the states that mea- regards the principle, it can be justified in
sure of protection which, although never theory, and has also a sound basis in Aus-
required to be put into use, will remain as tralian history. I am very unwilling indeed
a permanent safeguard against aggressive to quote authorities, but so many authorities
acts on the part of the larger states, then have been already quoted that I cannot help
we shall have taken a step which will referring to a quotation from Mr. Justice
bring the constitution into harmony with Story, which, although it happens to have
the wishes of the people in every colony, been written forty years ago, is as true to-day
and that certainly will not be out of har- as it was then, and in which he points out
mony with the democratic sentiment of two grounds for the existence of the senate,
Australian public opinion. That vitalising and emphasises a double reason for its.
force which pushes one bill on and stays the existence in connection with our proposal.
progress of another makes itself felt, and The senate is not merely a state house-it
has its strongest expression in that chamber is something more; it is also a revising
which is drawn directly from the people, and chamber-a revising chamber which we
which represents a majority of the people. determine shall be free from the faults, as
But does anyone doubt that the people of some of us consider them—I hope I shall
the larger states represented in that cham- not cause controversy by calling them faults
ber and in the senate will be aspowerful and —of the revising chambers of the separate
will have as much effect in modifying the colonies, by being more in touch with
views of the representatives of the smaller popular sentiment; and, being kept by the
states as public opinion in London or in device which we hope to introduce into
Paris modifies opinion in the provinces. this bill, continually in touch with public
When those who live in the larger states opinion.
hear others speak of the tendency of the Mr. HIGGINS: Why is a state house par-
smaller states to dominate the larger, they ticularly fit to be a revising chamber?
cannot help thinking that those who use such Mr. WISE: I do not know. I want to
language ignore the overwhelming potency know how you are going to get any other?
of the influence of large cities. If a large
The Hon. E. BARTON : How is it that
city is more seething with great ideas,
it generally is so?
and if those ideas commend themselves
Mr. WISE: How are you going to get
to the people of the larger states, depend any other revising chamber ? We want a
upon it that there will be a considerable revising chamber, so we have been told,
minority in all the smaller states in the
and we have been instructed to provide a
common way of thinking. The ideas will
revising chamber in this constitution.
An Hon. MEMBER : The lower house is
penetrate from one state to another, so
that in time, if we have the means of
also a revising chamber for the legislation
dissolving the senate-of bringing it into
of the upper house!
Mr. WISE: Mr. Justice Story, referring
touch with its constituents—we shall en-
to the statement that the senate was a
sure that the popular will will prevail in
mere accident, says:
all matters affecting the popular interest
Whatever may now be thought of the reason-
as distinguished from the interest of states
ing of the contending parties no person who
as states.
I venture to urge, therefore, possesses a sincere love of country and wishes
that I have answered the question put by for the permanent union of the states can doubt
the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, and that
that the compromise actually made was well
founded in policy, and may now be fully vindi.
I have shown that equal representation is
cated upon the highest principles of political
not only a practical necessity, but that as wisdom and the true nature of the government
326.
Australia Bill.
Cominonu:ealth of
510 SEPT., 1897.1
which was intended to be established. It may
not be unprofitable to review a few of the
grounds upon which this opinion is hazarded.
In the first place, the very structure of the
general government contemplated one partly
federal and partly national. It not only recog-
nised the existence of state governments but
perpetuated them, leaving them in the enjoy-
ment of a large portion of the rights of sove-
reignty, and giving to the general government a
few powers and those only which were necessary
for national purposes. The general government
was therefore upon the acknowledged basis one
of limited and circumscribed powers. The states
were to possess the residuary powers. Admit-
ting, then, that it is right among a people tho-
roughly incorporated into one nation that every
district of territory ought to bave a proportional
share of the government, and tbat among inde-
pendent states bound together by a simple league
there ought, on the other hand, to be an equal
share in the common councils whatever might be
their relative size or strength—both of which
propositions are not easily controverted—it would
follow that a compound republic partaking of
the character of each ought to be founded on
a mixture of proportional and equal representa-
tion. The legislative power being that which is
predominant in all governments ought to be
above all of this character, because there can be
no security for the general government or the
state governments without an adequate repre-
sentation, and an adequate check on each in the
functions of legislation. Whatever basis, there-
fore, is assumed for one branch of the legisla-
ture, the antagonist basis should be assumed for
the other. If the house is to be proportional to
the relative size and wealth, and population of
the states, the senate should be fixed upon an
absolute equality as the representative of the
state sovereignty. There is so much reason and
justice and security in such a course that it can
with difficulty be overlooked by those who seri-
ously consult the public good without being
biassed by the interests or prejudices of their
peculiar local position. The equal vote allowed
in the senate is in this view at once a constitu-
tional recognition of the sovereignty remaining
in the states, and an instrument of the preser-
vation of it. It guards them against-what
they meant to resist as improper—a consolida-
tion of the states into one simple republic, and
on the other hand the weight of the other
branch counterbalances an undue preponderance
of state interests tending to disunion. Another
and most important advantage arising from this
ingredient is the great difference which it creates
in the elements of the two branches of the
legislature.
That is the answer to the hon. member,
Mr. Higgins, who asks why the state
chamber should be a revising chamber? It
is differently constituted from the other
chamber. It would be no use to have a
revising chamber constituted exactly simi-
lar to the chamber whose work it is
intended to revise.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The American
Constitution is compounded of checks and
balances !
Mr. WISE: I admit that.
Another and most important advantage arising
from this ingredient is the great difference which
it creates in the elements of the two branches of
the legislature which constitutes a great desider-
atum in every practical division of the legisla-
tive power. In fact, this division, as has been
already intimated, is of little or no intrinsic
value, unless it is so organised that each can
operate as a real check upon undue and rash
legislation. If each branch is substantially
framed upon the same plan, the advantages of
the division are shadowy and imaginative ; the
visions and speculations of the brain and not the
waking thoughts of statesmen or patriots.
I commend this to those who urge that
there should be proportional representa-
tion :
It may be safely asserted that for all the pur-
poses of liberty and security, of stable laws and
of solid institutions, of personal rights and of
the protection of property, a single branch is
quite as good as two, if their composition is the
same and their spirits and impulses the same.
Each will act as the other does; and each will
be led by the same common influence of am-
bition, or intrigue, or passion, to the same disre-
gard of the public interests, and the same indif-
ference to, and prostration of, private rights.
It will only be a duplication of the evils of
oppression and rashness with a duplication of
obstruction to effective redress.
These last words say, in words that I do.
not wish to put into any other form, all
that can be said against proportional re-
presentation. It is remarkable that this
demand for proportional representation
should come from two such distinct classes
in this community. I can well understand
that those who urge that there should only
be one chamber in a federal parliament.
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
3.27
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
should urge that there should be propor- national life of the country, the spirit of
tional representation in the senate, because local patriotism, which is the moving im-
when they get that they get the advantages pulse of great national advances.
of one chamber with the further advan- The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK (Victoria)
tage of - having an increased number of [3:25]. Seeing thatone of my colleagues from
legislators. But I fail altogether to com- Victoria has supported theamendment, and
prehend how, on any theory consonant that the debate yesterday was conducted by
with the desire to achieve federation, the the hon. and learned member, Mr. Glynn,
extreme tories should urge proportional from South Australia ; the hon. member,
representation. I confess that when I find
Mr. Carruthers, from New South Wales ;
the surly tories of the Legislative Council and also the hon. and learned member, Sir
joining hands with the extreme socialists John Downer, from South Australi&; and
of the labour party to enforce this scheme that we had a speech from the Premier of
of proportionate representation, I regard South Australia this morning, and one
it with the utmost suspicion.
from my colleague, Mr. Isaacs, and another
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is the system of from Mr. Wise, all gentlemen belonging to
proportionate representation in force in the legal profession, and all occupying pro-
New South Wales, with practically equal minent positions in connection with the
electorates?
bar in their respective colonies, and all
Mr. WISE: Practically not; it is more well informed on the subject, and all being
nearly so than in any other colony. able to quote from text books the history
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Substantially so! of this question for many years past, I am
Mr. WISE: No. We have a larger quota surprised at my own rashness, as a layman,
in the towns than in the country-I forget in stepping forward to discuss the ques-
the figures. *
tion at all. But the reason that has caused
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : A small margin! me to offer a few remarks on this sub-
Mr. WISE : Although it is a small ject is this : At the previous conven-
margin it tots up to a considerable amount tion I was a patient listener to all the
in the towns. I
I am not going to trespass observations from the different members,
longer upon the attention of the Com- and belonging to the younger generation
mittee. I have endeavoured, more fully
of politicians, and having taken a great
than was necessary for the purposes of
interest in federal matters for many years
this debate, but not more fully than was
in my own colony, and knowing well that
required in order to bring out prominently if every one exercised the full right of
the main features of this discussion, to speech with regard to this question we
deal with a matter that for all practical should not get on with the work that we
purposes is settled. I, personally, think have been sent here to do, and noticing
that it is something more than a mere that several of our legal friends get up to
matter of expediency; I believe that the offer a few remarks which spin out to a
system of equal representation will ensure great length, I think it would be wise for
that this constitution can be adopted by me to offer a few remarks on this question,
every province without undue detriment or remembering that it is one that will really
depreciation of any smaller province, and settle the whole business that has brought
without any unfair exaltation or advance- us together here. I see my hon. and
ment of any of the larger provinces, whilst learned friend, Dr. Quick, from Victoria.
at the same time it will preserve that which
He and myself for many years past, long
I regard as of the utmost value to the before we thought there was going to be a
* Note by Mr. Wise on revision :- Omit, “We have a larger quota in the towns than in the country," insert, "By the
use of a variable margin our quotas are not the same for all constituencies."
328
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
I am
federal convention, or that we were to have nearly every speaker does, some of the
seats in that convention, as well as the hon. points which I intended to cleal with,
and learned member, Mr. Deakin, were pro- though, no doubt, I should not have done
minently connected with our Australian it so effectively as he has done. I remem-
Natives' Association, which I say
has done ber well when it seemed that the federal
more towards educating the public on the movement was about to drop to the
federation question than any other move- ground, after the Convention of 1891 in
ment; and, having always been a firm ad- our own colony, that my hon. friend, Dr.
vocate of the principle of equal represen- Quick, took a great deal of interest in the
tation, I think it right, so that there might matter, and consulted the political federal
be no misunderstanding with regard to the leaders in this colony, also in Queensland,
position I take up, to trespass on the time in our own colony, and in South Australia.
of the Convention for a few minutes. This After he had done so, I had the privilege
question of equal representation was con- and the honor of being consulted by him
sidered by many of us in our own colony with regard to what views the Australian
in years gone by, particularly after the Natives' Association held I then
occupy-
Convention of 1891, and I dispute, to a ing the position of president--as to the best
great extent, the views that have been put means of trying to awaken interest.
forward by my own colleagues as to the not going to enter into all the details,
feeling concerning it. I think I can claim, but I remember well the doctor asking
although no orator, to be an enthusiastic my opinion as to the true constitution
worker in the cause ; I have visited many of this Convention, namely, that it should
parts of the colony of Victoria—and the consist of an equal number of representa-
hon. and learned member, Mr. Deakin, has tives from the different colonies, thus con-
done the same so that we have become ceding, at the very outset, 'the principle
acquainted with the people in the country that we have been advocating ever since,
districts as well as the citizens in the and that was really passed in the Adelaide
towns; therefore, we are, fortunately, in the Convention—that the interests of the dif-
position, through the medium of the Aus- ferent colonies as states required equal re-
tralian Natives' Association, of having the presentation.
presentation. I am not going to argue
electors generally well educated, not only whether it is a right, or whether it should
with regard to the general sentiment, but be given as a concession to states, but I
also as to the principles of federal union; argue in this way : It is of no use for us
and I do not hesitate to say that I have to go on with the work one bit further if
never heard seriously discussed out of the amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
doors, in our own colony, that it was wise Higgins, be passed. That view is a view
to go into a system of proportional repre- held strongly in the colony which I have
sentation.
the honor, with my colleagues, to represent.
Mr. HIGGINS : There is the difficulty. I quite agree with what the hon. member,
It has been assumed right all through, and Mr. Wise, has said in his excellent speech
now it is too late to change!
just now, when he showed that you can-
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : I cannot not go in for proportional representation
deal with interjections. I must go on
as a compromise. I may not be as clear
in my own way, and I will express what as others; but, as I have understood the
I believe to be the view of my own debate yesterday and to-day, it strikes me
colony. My hon. and learned friend, Mr. that there are only two positions open to
Wise, who preceded me, took away, as us—the first, actual representation accord-
[The Hon. A. J. Peacock.
Cominonwealth of
329
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ing to population in the senate, or, second, South Wales would never concede. There-
equal representation. If you come to that fore the very fact that we agreed at Ade-
position, and my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, laid to an adjournment has shown the wis-
does not come as far as that, then you dom of not dealing too bastily with this
may as well concede that there should and other matters. That is shown by the
be no second chamber whatever. I do speech of Mr. Symon. We all know he
not think any one from my own colony, is an ardent federationist, and people in
or those who have heard anything about my colony have been taught to believe that
me in the other colonies, would say that he is an extreme tory ; but we now recog-
I have been a conservative or a tory in nise that he is prepared, as we have been
our own local politics. I have been one prepared all along to admit, I do not care
of those who always advocated that Par- what any one may say, that we will sub-
liament should represent, not only the mit a constitution to the people which will
manhood of the country, but also the in- not be framed on absolute logic. It will
terests of the country. I never have ad- have to be based on such principles that
vocated in my own colony that the elec- we, living in these times, can cast aside
torates of the lower chamber should be what occurred one hundred years ago,
framed on the basis of exactly equal popu-
because the circumstances then were ab-
lation ; for, if that were done, numbers solutely and entirely different. All the
of our great country interests would be authorities quoted to-day and yesterday,
completely sacrificed. That has been re- which were supposed to bear on this ques-
cognised in our own colony and in the tion, will, in my judgment, have no influ-
very bill brought in by Sir George Turner's ence upon the public mind outside. The
Government last year in both houses, people will look at the circumstances which
providing for the reduction of members exist in Australia to day, and they will
this very principle was recognised. Why say this remembering that there are
then should the second chamber not be larger colonies with different interests, re-
elected on the basis of equal representation? membering these two chambers are to re-
Simply because it has to represent the in- present, one the people and the other the
terests of the state as a state. As a very states, what are the powers proposed to be-
patient listener to all that transpired both conferred? We who represent the larger-
in Adelaide and here up to the present, I colonies—and that is why I am sorry the
do confess that it has seemed to me that amendment has been moved—should recog-
from the very fact that we did not have nise the same spirit which was displayed
a full debate on this principle at Ade- at Adelaide by Mr. Henry, Mr. Lewis,
laid at the outset-because some of us re- Mr. Brown, and also the Right Hon. C.
presenting the larger colonies were pre- C. Kingston and Mr. Glynn, who cast aside
pared to recognise, whether it was a matter for a moment the fact that they only re-
of right or a matter of concession, that presented their own province and their
there should be equal representation-be- own colony. They felt, as every man here
cause that was admitted by the two larger feels to-day, no matter what his views on
colonies--it is my honest opinion, and I this question may be that if you do not
never have failed to express it, that provide equal representation in the senate
some of the representatives from some of the movement for federation is as dead as
the smaller colonies were led to make a a door-nail. That is what my hon. friends
demand for such powers as in my opinion recognised at Adelaide. That is what we
I believe the colonies of Victoria and New have to deal with to-day. I maintain, no
2 A
330
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
matter what the consequences may be, that An HON. MEMBER : You have done a
the people of Victoria, despite all that good deal!
has been said to the contrary, will be The Hon A. DEAKIN: I have not
prepared to accept this constitution pro- contributed .a tithe as much as the hon.
viding for equal representation, provided member, Mr. Peacock, who, as president
there will be some safeguard in case of of the association, has undertaken for
any difficulties arising between the two several years that most onerous duty, dis-
chambere.
charging it with an ability and enthu-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)[3.38]: siasm with which I think members from
I would not have followed my hon. col- that colony are now familiar.
As a mere
league, the Chief Secretary for Victoria, private member of that association it has
had it not been for the fact that possibly been rarely my lot to contribute in the
I might not have another opportunity of same way. I introduce that fact for the
contributing a few sentences to this debate. purpose of basing another upon it. I fear
The ground has now been so thoroughly that my hon. friend, Mr. Peacock, ad-
traversed, the difficulties of the field have dressing as he does that body which with
been so cleared by those who preceded me, us is practically the heart and soul of the
that I certainly do not think it necessary federal movement, and which consists al-
to apologise for the brevity of the observa- most without exception of enthusiasts in
tions I propose to offer. I take it that our the federal cause, has undervalued the
views upon this question, however much strength of the support which is likely to
they may be supported or illustrated, are be rallied to the cause of which in this Con-
not likely to be altered by the citation of vention my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, has
historical precedents or text-book quota- constituted himself the standard bearer.
tions. Not that such aids to argument It seems to me therefore that we should
are to be despised—quite the contrary; but err if we allowed this debate to close with-
my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, and the At- out each of us contributing his mite, espe-
torney-General of Victoria on one side, and cially those who represent the larger colo-
Mr. Symon and Mr. Wise on the other, nies, and especially those whose politics are
have, I think, contributed to this Conven- usually associated with the implicit accept-
tion Hansard all that is necessary in that ance of that doctrine on which the hon.
direction. Whatever opinion we may hold member, Mr. Higgins, relies as the basis of
as to the proceedings taken in the United his argument—the doctrine of the rule of
States—whether we consider with my hon. the majority. We have to be prepared to
friend, Mr. Higgins, that equal represen- show to the citizens of Victoria and New
tation was the cause, or, as I consider South Wales that the principle of the rule
was merely a condition of the great erup- of the majority, as applied in our constitu-
tion which occurred in the republic of the tion, is not seriously interfered with, is not
west-is, after all, comparatively imma seriously impaired by the proposal for equal
terial. The issue which faces us is, first representation in the senate of the feder-
of all, a practical issue. My hon. friend, ation. So much has been said by my hon.
Mr. Peacock, gave me an undue measure and learned friend, Mr. Wise, in that stir-
of credit when he remarked that I had in ring, admirable, and effective speech of his,
any respect devoted the same attention to on this score that I have little to contribute.
the preaching of the federal cause to the But, speaking as he does to a constituency
Australian Natives' Association in Vic- which will largely prejudge this issue by,
toria as he has done.
as it seems to me, a misapplication of that
[The Hon. A. J. Peacock.
Commonwealth of [10 SEPT., 18:97.] Australia Bili.
331
all-important principle, that fundamental has submitted to us. But let me urge a re-
principle of the British Constitution, the consideration of the doctrine of the rule
rule of the majority, I will venture to add of the majority, as he appears inclined to
a few words even to what he has:said. In apply it in this particular instance—and I
the first place, I think my hon. and learned speak of him, although of course my hon.
friend has applied that doctrine with a too friend, Mr. Carruthers, practically adopts
rigid radicalism to the interpretation of the same position, and puts it from another
what our constitution really contains. Our standpoint with great force. These gentle-
constitution embodies the principle of the men appear to me to be endeavouring to
rule of the majority, not as its working apply the doctrine of the rule of the major-
principle or method, but as its final and ity in a manner which would be absolutely
ultimate test of the work done. If we inconsistent with our constitutions as they
succeed in embodying in this federal .con- exist. If it is to be pushed to the length
stitution the principle of the rule of the to which they go, I fail to see how they
majority as the final and ultimate court of can stop short of the declaration which my
appeal on great public questions, we shall hon. and learned friend, Mr. Wise, has
have imparted to it all the authority which made in favour of a single chamber. If pro-
it possesses and all the sway which it portional representation is the only means
enjoys under our own constitution.
by which majority rule is to be expressed,
Mr. LYNE: What if you don't ?
and it is to govern absolutely, I fail to see
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I must con- the purpose of a second chamber; in fact,
fess, if we do not, I shall take an entirely we should see in the future the disappear-
different view of this problem. I must con- ance of even the first chamber, and as a
fess, if we do not, that the colony of Vic- substitute legislation by referendum. This
toria, as far as I with my opportunities
is the inevitable conclusion of their argu-
can judge, will take an entirely different ment, if it is to be pushed to the ex-
view of this problem. It is because, like the treme
Aittorney-General of Victoria, I am count- Mr. HIGGINS : There will be no debate
ing in advance on some constitutional safe- under a mere referendum !
guards being added to the bill, that I am The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The second
using these arguments.
chamber as we have it exists for the pur-
Mr. WISE : So are we all!
pose of debate, for the purpose of fuller
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: My hon. and and further consideration, and if my hon.
learned friend, Mr. Higgins, whom I con- friend's argument is to apply, it must be
gratulate as others have justly done on swept away. You are reduced to one
the courage and consistency with which he chamber, and is only another step to say
bas.advocated his view in the face of an that the press—that great organ of public
adverse majority, is entitled to exult, as opinion, which discusses every problem pre-
he undoubtedly did exult, in the fact that sented to a legislatureis in itself a suffi-
since we parted at Adelaide, he has had cient means of arousing and expressing
on his side an exhibition of hearty support public opinion, and all you need are, first,
and encouragement from great constitu- leading articles in the newspapers, and
tional bodies, in this colony in particular, then the referendum to decide what your,
and from large numbers of representatives legislation shall be. I am pushing the argu-
in other legislatures. That adds, if any-
ment to an absurdity, I confess; but if my
thing were needed to add, even more force hon. friend is to insist on a logical deduc-
and emphasis to the arguments which he tion from this principle, so as to exclude
332
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 Sept., 1897.]
any other possible means of representation omitting grave and important factors which
in the second chamber, except proportional must be included in his premises. He can-
representation ; I fail to see how his prin- not apply his logic, correct as it is within
ciple of an absolute and unqualified, and, limits, without making the problem he is
apparently, immediate rule of the majority solving quite another one from that which
would leave him any second chamber, or is being submitted to us. The problem
any first chamber, or any recourse exist- which is submitted to us is, not simply to
ing, except a voice which will speak to the provide for the rule of the majority, but to
people, and the answer from the people provide for the rule of the majority by con-
which declares their will.
stitutional means—by those means which
Mr. HIGGINS : I have been accused of long experience has sanctified to us, and
being logical!
than which human experience has yet not
been able to discover better. We have now
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If I offend
my hon. friend by terming him logical, I first, the representation of the people by
will willingly withdraw the charge. I am
those to whom they delegate a certain
perfectly sure that this is the last thing he
measure of their authority—who discuss
in a first chamber in administrative de-
desires.
tail, in legislative detail, the whole of the
Mr. HIGGINS :I never knew of a debate
business submitted to them. From that
in which a man was accused so much of
chamber it passes, when it has received
being logical as in this debate !
the impress of its authority, to a second
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: As my hon.
chamber, to a chamber of revision, review,
friend knows, logic, though an excellent
and reasonable delay ; a chamber in which
servant, is a bad master in some cases, be-
and by means of whose criticism the pub-
cause the whole of your case is assumed in
lic-the electors—are enabled to arrive at
the premises with which you start.
those right and reasonable conclusions,
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. and learned
that ripe and reasoned judgment on which
member accuses me of being illogical, and action is finally taken. You can no more
I want to agree with what he says ! say that this last step in the argument is
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Scarcely so the only valid step any more than you can
much as that. I fail to see that my hon. say, if you ignore all our existing consti-
friend has yet indicated any reason why tutional machinery, that you have fairly
he should pause where he does pause, or
described its character. So I am not pre-
propose what he does propose, if he ac- pared to admit that the hon. member has
cepts, as he appears to accept, the one been logical in dealing with this problem. I
doctrine of the rule of the majority as say he has been logical in dealing with the
the sole guide in constitution making. I problem as he stated it; but that his state-
hold that two chambers and an executive ment is imperfect.
such as we are aiming at, forın no less an Mr. HIGGINS : He omitted those im-
important part of constitutional govern- portant factors which require to be taken
ment than the ultimate decision of the ma- into account !
jority, and are, in fact, the essential means The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The hon.
by which we arrive at a decision as to what member is logical within limits.
the will of the majority really is. You Mr. LYNE : Does not the hon. member
cannot take away any part of that me- think the introduction of the referendum
chanism without disarranging your whole to a large extent destroys the principle of
scheme, and therefore my hon. friend is equal states representation ?
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
333
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I shall have ferent boundaries from those which exist,
much to say when we come to the refer- and having adopted different boundaries it
endum.
is probable that we might take equal repre-
Mr. Lyne: It all hinges upon that sentation, but it is more probable that we
now!
should adopt proportional representation,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: No; I do not If we were a body of men coming from the
think it does, because, excellent as the re- mother country, saturated with the prin-
ferendum is, much as can be said for it, it ciples and doctrine of the British Consti-
is not the only means of solving difficulties tution, we should certainly not create a
and deadlocks. Even if I were to reply second chamber either with proportional
to the hon. member at length on that point or equal representation. We should create
I should not be able to give him the it on a nearer approach to British precedent,
answer he desires. It is inadvisable to and I am far from sure that we would not
enter on a discussion of the question of be taking a wiser course than that pro-
the referendum now, especially as I am posed. But we are not dealing with a
anxious to fulfil my promise in regard to sketch map--with an unpopulated con-
the greatest possible brevity. I will ad- tinent; we are dealing with settled Aus-
mit that beyond the objection I have tralia, with settled communities, absolutely
already taken in the Victorian Legislative independent of each other, enjoying all the
Assembly, and to which Mr. Wise was rights and privileges of self-government,
kind enough to call attention, and which, and without exception, absolutely self-
therefore, I need not elaborate except to sufficient. I make no exception. The colony
repeat that to allow the senate to be elected of Tasmania is sometimes alluded to as an
by the proportional method would be to insignificant portion of Australia. I am
deprive the Legislative Assembly of its far from holding that opinion. Tasmania
strongest argument why there should be is not only much larger than several Euro-
differing powers in the two bodies, and dif- pean states, but it contains within itself,
ferent duties discharged by them. Why, so far as I know it, natural resources and
if you made the two bodies identical in potentialities of development which will
franchise, in constituencies except as re- enable it, in a comparatively few years, to
gards their boundaries, in the qualifica- outstrip those European states. There is
tion for representatives, and the qualifica- nothing in the circumstances of Tasmania
tion for electors, I fail to see the necessity to forbid a policy of separate existence
for a second chamber at all ; or, if you being carried on for all time, and with
have a senate, I fail to see how you could great success. If that is true of Tasmania,
logically refuse them co-equal powers.
it is absolutely and unequivocally true of
Putting that aside, no liberal, so far as I every colony of the group. Every one of
know, can see any objection to propor- these great colonies possesses within itself
tional representation.
sufficient resources and powers to stand
Mr. HIGGINS : There is always that ob- alone. Meeting, as we do, equal num-
jection to liberalising the upper house ! bers of representatives from those equally
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If Australia self-governing states, equally capable of
were at this time unoccupied territory, and self-sufficient life, we naturally meet on
it remained for the Convention, as a body an equal platform, and it seems to me
of imported authorities to determine a con- that the proposal for equal representation
stitution for the territory, there is no doubt is therefore one which is naturally laid
that first of all we should adopt very dif- before us for our consideration. And it
334
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.
,
is one which, if it does involve, as the hon. control over their contributions to the re-
member asserts—and as I admit—that an venue, since these ought necessarily to be
elected body should be constituted by governed by their numerical strength. On
equal representation of units without re- financial questions, it appears to me that
gard to population, means a sacrifice and we have to ask the representatives of the
concession on the part of larger popula- smaller states, when conceding them equal
tions, accustomed, as the final test of all representation, to concede to us the con-
their constitution working, to adopt the trol by the taxpayers numerically of the
principle of the rule of the majority. It expenditure of the commonwealth. Then
is a sacrifice and it is a concession ; but, we come to the other necessity which has
on the other hand, have we no sacrifices been alluded to the introduction into the
or concessions to ask, and do not we ex-
bill of that which is not at present in it
pect to obtain them? Are we to ask of some means of providing for a solu-
these smaller communities to simply merge tion of disputes between the two houses —
themselves in a great Australian state and some means of imposing a limit on the
disappear for ever? Are we to expect veto which the second chamber is able to
them to accept a number of members in exercise. We may refer the chamber itself
both houses which shall leave them abso- or the question in dispute back to the con-
lutely powerless on those rare occasions stituencies, we may take a means, prefer-
when a question affecting state existence able to me, of sending the senate represen-
does arise ? Are we to say that they are
tatives back to their constituents to ask
to commit themselves absolutely to our
for a renewal of their confidence, or an-
hands in a sense in which they cannot other means, suggested from Victoria, by
ask us to commit ourselves to their hands which those constituents would be asked
while we have proportional representation the question directly as to whether they
in the house? Although Mr. Higgins ad approved or not of the proposals in dis-
mits this difficulty, and fairly meets it, pute between the two chambers. Finally
as he does every difficulty he sees, by modi- the question as to whether any danger
fying his demands for proportional repre-
exists in this concession of equal represen-
sentation
tation is the last point to which I propose
Mr. HIGGINS: I say the fear is wholly to address myself; and I submit, without
imaginary !
hesitation, that, granted the two condi-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: From his point tions to which I have referred, the conces-
of view the hon. member fairly meets that sion can be made without any real danger
by his proposal as to their scale of repre- to any substantial or permanent interest.
sentation. But even then we require to of the great body of the people of the
obtain from this Convention two other im- future federation. I say that, admitting
portant concessions, one of which is already that at the outset, not only does the de-
embodied in the bill in part, while the other mand for equal representation possess a
is not yet introduced into the bill. The certain amount of equity—as we meet here
first is the distinction between the two on an equal footing--but also because I
houses in regard to the control of matters take it we desire to preserve in the future
of finance---a distinction without which, to the dignity of the separate states. We do
my mind, our system of government cannot not wish to see any of the communities.
be carried on, a distinction without which possessed of all the appendages of self-
it would be impossible for the taxpayers of government, possessed of independent par-
the future federation to retain that just liaments, independent governors, with wide-
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
335.
[10 SEPT:, 1897.1
Australico Bill.
and undefined privileges-sovereign states, The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The good old
except for the powers included in this bill English. names of liberal and conservative
We do not desire to see them so reduced are sufficient for my purpose. If the hon.
in dignity that, in any future federal house member sits uneasily under either name,
of parliament, their representation may he can coin another for his own particular
be reduced to an insignificant minority. benefit. . There exists in each colony a
We could not do that without largely party that can be considered liberal, and
imparing the machinery of government also a party that can be considered conser-
which would exist in those colonies, and vative. Is it not, then, inevitable that so
upon which they must be dependent still soon as the federation is formed, the liberal
for their legislation and administration in parties in the different colonies will coalesce.
most of the practical interests of their daily and throw in their lot with each other, and
life. I say that they are entitled to this that the conservative parties in the dif-
concession, and that it implies no obstruc- ferent colonies will do the same, irrespec-
tion to the final rule of the majority. I tive of state boundaries altogther. There
say so for this reason : I have always con- is the progressive party, which is aiming
tended that we shall never find in the at extending the liberties and rights of the
future federation certain states ranked masses of the electors, which will range
against certain other states, or that party itself on one side, and the party who think
lines will be drawn between certain states that we have progressed, or are progress-
which happen to be the more populous and ing too fast or far, will range themselves
those which do not happen to be so popu-
on the other side. There will not be any
lous. I have said before, and venture now question of large or small states, but a
to repeat with emphasis, that this appears question of liberal or conservative. Then,
to me a wholly mistaken reading of the as to the senate, how does the question
situation. What is absolutely certain is of equal representation affect parties? It
that, as soon as this federation is formed, affects them to this extent: that, as in
parties will begin to declare themselves the American Union, the leaders of those
in
every state. Every state will be divided. parties will take care to rally their forces,
Our form of government is not susceptible and push their campaigns with as much
of continuous or successful working with- care in the smaller states as in the larger
out parties.
states. A defeat in the smaller states,
Mr. Higgins : Not of states against if parties were evenly balanced, might..
states !
mean a defeat in the federal parliament,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I concede although there was a majority of the repre-
that to the hon, member. It partly helps sentatives of the larger states. That must
his argument, and partly helps mine. The be admitted.
crucial question that we have to ask our.
An Hon. MEMBER : Under equal repre-
selves is not as to the voting power to be
sentation !
given to the less populous states as against The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes, and, to
the more populous states; but how—with
some extent, under almost any other sys-
equal representation granted—those votes
tem of representation. What is the effect
will be employed by political parties. in America ? It is that the party efforts,
There is in every colony of the group a the party speakers, the party energy, are
liberal party and a conservative party. concentrated on doubtful states, whether
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Liberal and large or small. Is that an evil ? It is
socialist--there is no conservative!
not an evil. I say, on the one hand, that
336
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT, 1897.]
if you had or could have a second chamber a particular number of wealthy men, who
completely proportional in representation, are interested in obtaining for the silver
what you might see would be this: A which is there produced special concessions
party strong enough to seize the two great in the United States—a difficulty has
colonies, or wherever the larger population arisen. I fail to see the slightest possi-
might be, could treat with contemptuous 'bility of an occurrence of such a difficulty
indifference the outlying parts of Australia,
in Australia. The states here are so few
feeling, • There are not sufficient votes proportionately, and they are so large and
there to be of importance to us in either important that I fail to see any possibility
chamber.”
of the occurrence of those particular Ameri-
Mr. HIGGINS: Does the hon, and learned can difficulties. What I say, to put it briefly,
gentleman call only thesmaller states doubt- is that in practical working--as a matter of
ful, and not the larger ones ?
practical politics--the states will be fought
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: They might for by the two parties, liberal and conser-
be either one or the other. In America, vative, and that the effect of equal repre-
parties concentrate their efforts on the sentation will be that, instead of passing
doubtful states, whether the states are those minor states by as lightly as they
small or large, and the same would be might do under proportional representation
done here. But the principle of equal re- in the senate, the party seeking to win or
presentation has this value-and I con- retain power will pay as much attention to
sider that it is no inconsiderable value, the small states as to the large states.
from a practical point of view,-it compels That makes for the good of everybody--for
both parties to study the interests of the the good of politics. Now I come, I think,
small states—to take care that in their to my last point, and it is, that on this
programme they include no proposition question, at all events, we are not taking
aimed at the liberties or privileges of those a leap in the dark; we are not proposing
states, or their industries, or anything that that equal representation should be granted
affects them in a material manner. I without having before us illustrations of
think that this is a perfectly legitimate what we may expect will be produced by a
end. I do not believe that the extra burden house elected on the basis of the proposed
of responsibility which it imposes on politi- franchise in this bill. Fortunately for us
cal parties in the larger states is one that I can pass by without allusion the Cham-
they can complain of. In the lower house, ber over which my hon. friend, Sir William
the larger states will have a great majority Zeal, so admirably presides. If we wish to
of members, and their safety will be as- discover what the future senate must be
sured; but if they wish to keep the govern- we must look to a house not elected on a
ment of the commonwealth, they must restricted franchise, but to a legislative
study the interests of the small states to council such as that of South Australia,
such an extent that they will be able to elected on a franchise practically almost as
gain a majority in the senate also.
broad as that of the Legislative Assembly.
An Hon. MEMBER: Like Nevada !
Mr. TRENWITH : It is not broader than
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes, like ours, except that the qualification is
Nevada. Unfortunately, owing to the pe- different!
culiar circumstances of that state, which I The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The qualifica-
happen to have visited-confined as it is tion is different, and the voting qualification
wholly to its mineral wealth, and concen- is also different. The hon, member will see
trated as that wealth rests in the hands of that as what he says is accurate, it supports,
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
337
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
as he intended it should, my argument, for said on this question practically all that it
the future federal senate will be based on is necessary for me to add to what I have
a more liberal basis than that of the Legis- said previously at Adelaide and elsewhere.
lative Council of South Australia. Any I could perfectly understand if this were a
difference there is between the two bodies proposition for combining with these colo-
tells in favour of the future federal senate nies the French settlement of New Cale-
from a liberal point of view, and therefore donia and the German settlement of New
supports my argument; but I say that in Guinea, and other foreign settlements in
the Legislative Council of South Australia our neighbourhood; or if any of our colonies
we already see that, even with large pro- were inbabited by populations of different
vinces and under certain local restrictions, blood and different race, such as the South
the liberal party of that colony, which is as American republics are—if the proposal was
advanced as the liberal party in any colony ; that we should unite with them, I could
in Australia, is able to obtain very consider- understand the apprehensions with which
able representation. Under the same cir- my hon. friends approach this question.
cumstances, most undoubtedly the federal But, situated as we are, in colonies which
electors of New South Wales and Victoria, are more united, as bas already been
as well as of South Australia, will certainly pointed out in this Chamber, in blood, in
return a large proportion of liberals to the race, in political opinions, political ways of
federal senate. I go further. In Western thinking, and methods of political action
Australia and Tasmania there is a great than any other communities on the face of the
mining development at the present time. globe, why is it that we should regard with
Mining development means miners, and apprehension the proposal to give to cer-
miners are liberals; and from both those tain smaller bodies of these our own fellow-
colonies, as well as the other colonies of countrymen, our own fellow-citizens, our
the
group,
there will be no small infusion of own fellow-members of the British nation
liberal principles in politics into the future --why is it that we should regard with
federal senate. I observed with some sur- such apprehension the proposal to give
prise the energy, enthusiasm, and unflinch- them a greaterrepresentation than thelarge
ing devotion which my friend and colleague, states? That greater representation is not
Mr. Higgins, threw into the discussion of to be given to any class, or I could under-
this question. It appears to me that so stand the reluctance with which it is pro-
far from the grant of equal representation, posed to be granted. If this equal repre-
carrying in its train the dangers which seem sentation in the senate was a question
to appal the hon. member, and to affright between one class and another, I could
him almost from the proposal of federation, understand the hesitation; but in each
they are comparatively small in themselves colony the majority will rule, in each colony
that the sacrifice or concession which the it will rule on the very broadest franchise
more populous colonies are asked to make which is possible, and in each colony it
is not an unreasonable sacrifice or conces- will return representatives without restric-
sion. It is one which preserves the dignity tions as to qualifications or any restric-
of the communities to which it is made, and tions whatever. It is scarcely possible
should be the means in the future of simply to imagine, and certainly not possible to
diffusing a wider political education, and a propound, a more liberal constitution than
more diffused party action-when parties this when thoroughly and carefully ex-
arise, as undoubtedly they will—in the amined. Give us the safeguards we ask
federal commonwealth. Now, I think Ihave for, and surely we may commit, as far as
338
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
10 SEPT., 1897.]
It is a
it is in our power to commit, the future we have gained more than we could have
destivies of Australia to a body of this hoped to obtain under any form of govern-
kind, knowing that that body is to be con- ment, except one that has sprung from the
stituted of Anglo-Saxons, elected by Anglo- British Constitution.
Saxons, containing representatives, many The Hon. E. BARTON: Only free mien
of whom probably I see before me now. could have such a system of government !
Men trained to parliamentary government
The Hon. A. DEAKIN:I hope we are
in these colonies are not likelyidly to depart free men, and I am sure we shall continue.
from Australian traditions, or even from so under this proposal. The constitu-
those longer and greater traditions of the tion on this table is a constitution that
British Constitution, to which I myself can be safely offered to free men.
would like to see even a closer adherence constitution which leaves, as it ought to.
than that promised under this bill.
leave, in the hands of those who will be
Mr. HIGGINS : On the same principle the electors of the future federated Aus.
the majority in Old Sarum should. satisfy tralia, the power of shaping it. If we
the hon. member!
obtain the two safeguards of which I have
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The majority spoken, if we make those amendments in
in Old Sarum consisted of six or eight the bill, then if that constitution does not
persons, and six or eight persons bore no fit, as it probably may not fit, the Aus-
proportion to the population of England tralia of a century hence, the Australia of
at that time that could be measured with a century hence will be competent to alter
the proportion which the population in it. The proposal now made is one for
any one of these great colonies can ever which much may be alleged on the ground
bear to the whole of Australia. Probably of fairness and equity, for which much
as time rolls on these colonies will be may be alleged on the ground of gene-
divided on other lines than those which rosity and consideration to those who are
exist at present. Population will increase about to join us in this federation. It
in special places. With that we need not has been apparent to me from the first,
concern ourselves. The fact remains that and particularly since 1890, that without
whatever the future states may be we are this special concession federation is in-
handing over this equal representation to possible. The question I have put to my-
electors trained under the British Consti- self has always been the same.
tution, and who for half-a century have prefer some other system-I do prefer some
proved their competence to work success- other system—to equal representation ;
fully the constitutional governments with but would I sacrifice federation, would I
which they have been endowed, under miss the union of these colonies, on this
difficulties--many of them—more serious question of equal representation—much
than those likely to confront the federal smaller as it is, I believe, than some of my
government for many years to come. None hon. friends think it is? I would not
of the constitutions under which we live dream of such a thing.
Would I lose
are perfect. The Constitution of Victoria federation, when asked to make this con-
contains provisions to which I have the cession or sacrifice, even if it be as serious
greatest objection, and which, as long as I as they believe, at the very time when I
am a citizen of that colony, I shall unceas- shall be asking my fellow representatives
ingly endeavour to reform. But for all to make concessions or what they may
that we have lived under it ; for all that consider sacrifices to us? Do we desire to
we have prospered under it'; for all that absolutely dominate the smaller colonies
I may
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
339.
[10 SEPT.,. 1897..]
Australia Bill..
because we have larger populations, and the proper working of the system of re-
to drag them in our train? That might sponsible government. Short of that-
be: a federation; but a: federation launched which is a position I must take unless I
on those lines could have no bright or am prepared to give up the system known
sunny future. before it. Its foundation,
to us for some other system of which we
must be laid: on justice. There is no suf- have no practical experience among people
ficient departure from justice in this pro- like ourselves-short of that, I am pre-
posal of equal representation, balanced as pared to support equal representation:
it is, as it should be and as it must be; by But beyond the point at which it is work-
other reasonable concessions. to. us- there able with constitutional government, of
is no such departure from a foundation of course, I cannot support it with powers
justice as to cause us to fear to accept it. which would make that kind of govern-
as the basis of the whole future federal, ment impossible. Consequently, upon some
structure for Australia.
such terms as exist in this bill, I am
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South prepared to support equal representation
Wales) [4:17]: As this question has now as expedient, reasonable, and just. If
been rather fully debated—it was the sub- we were to add to the powers of the
ject of a very full debate in Adelaide senate, proposed in this bill, powers of
and took some time there, and it has now amendment, I might ask myself very seri-
been debated here for more than a day and ously the question whether a senate, hay:
a half-I do not propose unduly to pro- ing powers of amendment in money bills,
long the debate, and I would suggest to together with equal representation of the
hon. members that while it is open to all various states, would be a body which
of us to speak, and to speak at length, could bear its part with reasonable smooth-
still the real question is whether the rea-
ness in the machine of responsible govern-
sons on each side have been adequately and ment. But, in the vote I shall give, and in
fairly put before the Convention, so as to
the remarks I shall make, I shall assume
reach the ears and eyes of the people of that this body will; on the whole, think it
all the colonies.
I have very little to wise and just to adhere to the lines upon
add to what I have always urged on this which the relations of the two houses, in
question. I believe that so far as New respect to money bills, were adjusted in
South Wales is concerned, my views on Adelaide, and upon that assumption I shall
it are thoroughly well known. They have again give my vote for equal representa-
not been kept secret. They have been tion. A great deal has been said, not
the subject of many speeches, and I think in this debate particularly, but during the
that all who are likely to read what I proceedings of this Convention, and particu-
say to-morrow will have read what I larly in Adelaide, upon the question of dead-
have already said on this question I am locks. We have not yet reached that point
convinced that equal representation is not for full discussion, but it is open to us to
only reasonable, not only expedient, but make remarks upon it at the present time.
just. I say that, having fully in view I have repeatedly said that I do not attach
that the constitution we are about to any great importance to paper provisions
establish: must nevertheless be a consti- for the solution of deadlocks, mainly be-
tution which will work the machine of cause I think that these are matters to be
responsible government. I cannot, there- settled so much by the common-sense of
fore, support equal representation with the parties in a state that the ordinary
such co-ordinate powers as would prevent provisions of a constitution are scarcely
340
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
very well fitted to deal with what may be eration. That style of reasoner demands
the variable operations of their common- equal representation in both houses, as it
sense, acting upon varying circumstances was demanded in America at the time of
at different times; but there appears to the framing of the United States Constitu-
be a considerable and growing feeling in tion. The person who would subordinate
favour of the institution of some method to every federal interest to a national in-
deal with deadlocks in the case of equal terest demands proportionate representa-
representation being granted. I have not tion in both houses. These being the
heard the question of the nature of that extremes, what is the just mean, what is
provision very fully debated during the that reasonable compromise at which to
present session of the Convention. I take arrive in order to give due force to the
it that if provision is made for deadlocks, federal principle, and also to see that the
it must be made by clauses separate from national government of affairs proceeds
those which exist in the bill, either by the without undue interruption? I take it
adoption of some amendment proposed by that the mean is to be found in the divid-
one of the legislatures which has sent sug- ing line between those two forces, and
gestions to the Convention, or by dealing that dividing line is so obvious as scarcely
with a proposal made by one of the mem- to require description. It is found in pro-
bers of the Convention. I shall endeavour portionate representation in the one cham-
to keep my mind open upon the question, ber where the national interests are more
but I should not like it to be understood peculiarly conserved, and equal represen-
that, while I am voting for equal represen- tation" in the other. If the two extremes
tation in the senate, I am prepared to re- are those which will lead to the extreme
sist all and every provision for the solu- type of national government in the one case
tion of deadlocks, if I find a solution pro- and of federal government in the other,
posed which, in my opinion, is not likely then, if you wish to constitute a body
to prove an obstruction rather than a which will work under responsible govern-
facility to the working of government. ment, and reserve something like a just
With regard to the general question, I do mean between the federal and the national
not propose to detain hon, members. The type of government, you can only do that
quotation from Mr. Justice Story's com- by giving proportionate representation to
mentaries upon the constitution of the one chamber and equal representation to
United States read by the hon. and learned the other. That is the sum of what is in-
member, Mr. Wise, is one which was well
volved in the remarks of Mr. Justice Story,
in my memory, and which I thought of which were quoted by the hon. and learned
making myself. In my opinion, it puts member, Mr. Wise. I have been convinced
the question with remarkable directness, of the justice of that proposition from the
clearness, and force. The question which
The question which beginning, and, much as I admire and re-
arises upon that quotation, and upon the spect the arguments of my many friends
consideration of all the arguments which
who hold opposite opinions to my own,
have been advanced, seems to me to be
and who have addressed themselves to this
this : The extreme proposals from the question, while I have given due and grave
federal point of view and from the national consideration to all these matters, I have
point of view reduce themselves to this: heard nothing which causes me to alter my
The extreme federalist goes so far in one opinions. Of course the question of money
direction as to make the constitution en- powers is a very serious one indeed; but,
tirely of the type one would call a confed taking it for granted that equal represen-
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
341
(10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
But we
tation may be conceded upon terms which elected. Under these circumstances I do
will admit of the continuance of respon- not see that there is any analogy in the
sible government in the form in which we historical incidents and events which have
know it--and I have no doubt whatever been referred to to guide us now.
that
upon the terms proposed in the bill have a more reliable and surer mode of
with regard to money matters that machine proceeding if we take into consideration
can work, and have its due efficiency—then modern thought and the trend of political
without further detaining the Committee events and proceedings. That has eventu-
I will say that upon this question I shall ated more and more as the years have gone
adhere to my former opinion.
by in the affirmation and confirmation of
The Hon. Sir GRAHAM BERRY
the theory that the majority must rule,
(Victoria) [4:26]: I would like to say a few based upon the widest possible adult suf-
words upon this subject. I have listened frage. I think that is a principle which we
very patiently to the whole debate, and can very fairly hold to and regard when we
to the many very able and learned speeches are considering the question of the forma-
which have been made by the learned tion of our constitution. I would even
members of the Convention, but I venture ask, would any liberal delegates ignore that
to say that the historical precedents which principle unless it was to the advantage, or
have been brought forward on this ques- the supposed advantage, of his own par-
tion of giving equal representation in the ticular colony? I think not. The state
senate are without analogy to our present rights are to be protected, it is said. But
circumstances. The hon. member, Mr. what state rights are there of an isolated
Symon, drew an analogy with the leagues character in the federation which we pro-
of antiquity. I presume that those alliances pose to inaugurate ? None whatever. The
or leagues were for mutual defence, and fact is that the work of the senate will be
for nothing more, and have no relation the ordinary work of an upper chamber.
whatever to the conditions and circum- and when we bear in mind the constitu-
stances under which we find ourselves in tion of that senate, under the provisions
forming this federation. Passing from that of this bill we have every reason to be-
we have the analogy of the United States lieve, every reason to fear, that it may be
of America. That constitution broke down
a large predominant power in the consti-
in the immense Civil War, which was a tution. It has continuity of existence; it
matter to be deplored at the time, and is is based on manhood suffrage ; it has
a matter of history now. That alone, I power to amend money bills, or to make
think, should make us pause before we suggestions equivalent to amendment; it
adopt implicitly the provisions of the has the initiation of money bills under
American Constitution. Then we have certain circumstances. Altogether it is a
had brought before us the Constitution body powerful enough to make headway,
of Germany. That constitution was dic- under favourable circumstances, with the
tated by a powerful military state, and house of representatives, and I would ask,
consequently acquiesced in by the other are the larger colonies of this group
states, and forms no analogy to a proposal New South Wales and Victoria—to be in
for the federation of these colonies. Nor a combined minority in a chamber which
can we take Canada as an analogy or an would be powerful enough, if the powers
illustration, because in Canada the Senate proposed in this bill be made definite and
is nominated by the Governor-General, permanent, to a large extent, to a con-
while we propose that the senate shall be siderable extent, to control the course of
342
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
legislation, not only of general legislation, body; but if its powers are limited to the
but also of financial legislation. If the ordinary powers of a second chamber I see
senate is to be as powerful a body as it is less objection to an equal representation of
proposed in this bill to make it, then I all the colonies. If, however, that be not
say
that Victoria and New South Wales the case, if the powers given in the bill are
ought to have a weight and representation continued, if the senate is to be a chamber
in that .chamber corresponding to their so powerful as not only to obstruct, but
population, their importance, their wealth, largely to dictate the course of events in
and their power. Equal representation
Equal representation this progressive part of the world, I should
is insisted upon, not only by hon. mem- hesitate to recommend, so far as my in-
bers who represent what I may designate fluence went, the population of a colony
as the smaller states, but by a number such as Victoria to enter the federation
of the representatives of the larger states, upon those conditions. Having regard to
especially of Victoria ; and I cannot con- the powers proposed to be conferred upon
clude that that opinion is held for any
the senate I think I am justified in ex-
other reason than the avowed reason given pressing the opinion that equal represen-
—that it is expedient, seeing that in the tation is not a good basis, that it is not a
absence of such a provision there could be fair and equitable basis, and that propor-
no federation at all. A modification of tional representation would have been far
opinion has taken place upon this question more just. At the same time I am able
since the Convention met in Adelaide, and to realise that, from the initiation of this
it has been suggested by more than one Convention, it has been possibly almost a
speaker—and we may almost assume that necessity that equal representation should
this is authoritative, and that it will be be given because we have equal represen-
acted upon in the future consideration of tation here. We have the same number of
this measure—that such an alteration might delegates from the smallest colony as from
be made in the powers and existence of the largest, from the less populous as from
the senate as will largely remove the ob- the more populous. This having been con-
jections which have been raised to equal ceded it was almost certain that a Conven-
representation. If there be a power to tion so constituted would in its very nature
initiate money bills, if there be a possibility insist upon a similar principle to that em-
of the dissolution of the senate as well as bodied in its own creation being extended
of the house of representatives, if, above to the federal legislature. Undoubtedly
all, there be a referendum to the people, if the question is prejudged in the formation
there be an outlet for deadlocks between of this Convention. Further, it has been
the two houses if there be a referendum acknowledged by large organs of public
to the entire body of the people, so that in opinion in the press from time to time,
the last resort a majority of the people of and, as I formerly said, it is almost im-
Australia, the people of the commonwealth possible to get away from the necessity of
will decide any subject in dispute between allowing this principle of equal representa-
their representatives in one house and in tion to prevail. Therefore, it was that in
the other–I can see and acknowledge
see and acknowledge Adelaide I emphatically protested against
that a great deal of the objection to the powers which are conferred upon the
equal representation will be done away senate in this bill without any outlet for
with. In Adelaide the powers proposed deadlocks. I protest most emphatically
to be conferred upon the senate were ac-
against the conferring of these powers with
companied by equal representation in that out some outlet for deadlocks. If, on the
[The Hon. Sir Graham Berry.
Conmonwealth of [1.0 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 343
other hand, there be some outlet for dead- Mr. TREN.WITH (Victoria) [4:43]: I
locks, then I confess that the concession of wish to ask the leader of the Convention,
larger representation for the smaller states as we have now reached nearly the ordin-
in comparison with the larger states may ary time for adjourning, whether he will
be fairly submitted to. I would also urge agree to report progress ? I know that
that the consideration of the financial.ques- there are several hon. members who wish
tion is of the greatest importance, and that, to speak on this subject, and there is no
therefore, there should be some modification more important question than this to come
of the other portion of the clause some
before us.
Although we have taken a
modification of those great powers which reasonable time, we are not wasting time
at the sitting of the Convention in Ade- in discussing a question of this magni-
laide, were conferred upon the senate. If tude. I should like to address myself to
those powers are modified somewhat in the the question, but I am not fit to do so this
direction which I have heard indicated by evening. The hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
some hon. members who support equal re- who has spoken to me on the subject, also
presentation, then I think that a concession desires to address the Committee on this
of that nature might be fairly allowed. question. It seems to me that we should
I do not know nor have I been convinced not be very much facilitating business by
that this principle is true and just in itself. going to a division, because, if this debate
But we have become entangled with it; is closed, time will only be taken up in dis-
We have become so committed to it directly cussing the same phase of the measure at
and indirectly in many ways that I see no a future stage. It is obvious that, if we
possible way of escaping from it, nor do I make this discussion as full as it can reason-
wish to jeopardise the possibility of federa- ably be, we may save time.
tion by any action in connection with it. I Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [4:45]: I desire
wished to say a few words on the question ; to support the request of the hon. member,
but what I most emphatically desire is a and I think that an adjournment of the
modification of the subsequent portions of
debate would result in a saving of time. I
the measure, and the provision of safe- have listened to the debate which, I
guards against deadlocks between the two may say, has taken a very high level, and
houses as being essential to the full and I think will impress the public of this
fair representation in the commonwealth colony as well as the public of the other
of every state whether large or small. I colonies. I believe that if the debate is
do not wish to detain the Convention, and
continued it will result in the strengthen-
will, therefore, simply say that, with the ing of the position of those members of
views I have expressed, I shall vote for
the Convention who are in favour of equal
the amendment, although knowing that.it representation. I do not wish to take up a
will be defeated. If the other question very great length of time in discussing the
had been dealt with first in the manner question myself, but if the debate be ad-
some of my colleagues from Victoria have journed until Monday I think it will re-
indicated, I might have voted differently. sult in a saving of future time, as well as
I shall vote now upon the bill as it stands. in the strengthening of the cause of feder-
We have only one question before us at
ation.
the present time—the question of equal The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
representation, as settled at Adelaide ; (Victoria) [4:46] : I hardly like to oppose
and, under these circumstances, I shall vote a suggestion which is made for the con-
against equal representation.
venience of hon. members; but surely it is
344
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.)
not wise to let it go forth to the public ever will ? That is the view I wish to
that, having had this question under con- take. I know it would be very con-
sideration for some time, we are not pre- venient for some hon. members who may
pared to go on with the debate' until have to leave town early, and who may
half-past 5. We know that some are not be back on Monday at the begin-
anxious to get away as quickly as they can, ning of our proceedings to have a divi-
but if we commence adjourning ata quarter sion.
I may be wrong, but I do not
to 5 we shall not get through the work we think that the cause, either for or against
have to do. Some hon. member must be equal state representation, can now be
prepared to speak now, and we ought not advanced one jot by further argument. I
to adjourn.
would ask my hon. friends to recollect that
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South amongst the amendments of the legisla-
Wales) [4:47]: I should be very lotb, in- tures there are affecting this clause some
deed, if it is persisted in, to oppose a re- thirteen suggestions. Of course, on the
quest such as that which has just been negativing or the carrying of one or more
been made ; but I would ask hon. mem- of them others may not be put, as being sub-
bers to consult the public interest of Aus- stantially identical ; but there is amongst
tralia by not persisting in it. I happen to those amendments a complete putting of
know that there is at least one other gen- the various phases of the question, afford-
tleman who desires to speak, and he ing a complete vehicle for debate on all
occupies the important position of leader the phases of the matter, which I think
of the Opposition in New South Wales. will be ample for hon. members, and any
Although he would like to speak on Mon- new views on any of the other amend-
day, I do not take it that he wishes to ments, any phase not hitherto advanced,
press his request for an adjournment un- can be got in easily without the curtail-
duly. I would only like to say that this mat- ment of debate.
ter was very fully debated in Adelaide, and Mr. TRENWITH : The question of equal
it has been very fully debated now. If I representation cannot be discussed !
could be informed that there was any set The Hon. E. BARTON: I would put
of strong arguments which have not yet it to my hon. friends that we ought to
been advanced, something which we did proceed with the matter. If they persist
not hear in our debate in Adelaide or in in their request I leave it entirely in the
our debate here-if there was some new hands of the Convention. I shall not offer
phase of the question which had not been any opposition, especially as owing to the
put, I should, on being informed of that, physical reasons advanced by my hon.
ask hon. members to agree with me in friend, I should only be too glad to accede
consenting to an adjournment. But if we to his request. But I ask my hon. friends
find, as I found when addressing myself who take up this position whether it is
to the question, that all the arguments not better in the interests of the common-
have already been put, and that my song,
wealtlı not to throw the debate into another
to use the vernacular, had already been week?
sung for me-if we find that, is it not The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
a good thing to let the matter stand on (Western Australia) [4.50]: I wish to say
that full elucidation, that complete placing for myself and also for my colleagues from
of it before the public which ought to
Western Australia that we should have
satisfy the public on the one hand or liked, and we were prepared to speak upon
hon. members on the other, if anything this question. We entertain very strong
Dr. Quick.
Commonwealth of
345
[10 SEPT., 1897.1
Sustralia Bill.
views in favour of equal representation in clause; but very little new matter has been
the senate, but the subject has been so introduced. Anumber of us have refrained
fully debated, and all the arguments, it from speaking solely in the interests of
appears to me, have been so clearly and federation. We are most desirous that
fully placed before us that I and my col- this matter should be dealt with this even-
leagues do not propose to address the Com- ing. We are now subject to the reproach
mittee
any further on this subject, the real out of doors that this Convention is sitting
reason being that we do not think we can for the purpose of its own pleasure.
advance the matter further by argument Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. members are
than it has already been advanced by hon.
afraid of debate !
members who have addressed the Com-
The Hon. Sir W. A. EAL: Hon.
mittee.
members are not afraid of debate ; but the
Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) (4:51]: I
hon. member, Mr. Higgins, is like Don
desire to say that I intimated to the hon.
Quixote,he is tilting at an imaginary foe.
member, Mr. Barton, that I would not
There is no substance in his opposition.
have asked for an adjournment of the
That has been proved by an hon. member
debate upon my own account, although I
who knows far more of Victoria than the
wished to have an opportunity of saying hon. member, Mr. Higgins-I allude to
something on the question. In view of
the hon. member, Mr. Peacock. He knows
the opinions expressed, I readily agree,
far more about the position in Victoria than
as far as I am concerned, to withdraw my
the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, does. The
request.
hon. member, Mr. Higgins, is producing
Dr. Quick : In view of the opinions that something which is not valid ; he is only
have been expressed, I wish to withdraw taking up time unnecessarily. I trust hon.
my request.
members will come to a division, and not
Mr. HIGGINS : It would be positively allow the reproach to be cast upon us that
improper that such a debate
we are seeking our own pleasure rather
The Hon. J.H. HOWE (South Australia)
than our work.
[4.52] : I wish to submit a question of Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria)[4.55]: I have
order. I believe we are acting under the to thank hon, members throughout the
rules which govern the Parliament of debate for the courtesy with which they
South Australia. I should like to point have treated me, except in the case of
out that if the hon, member, Mr. Higgins, the remarks of the last two speakers.
speaks at length, any member can follow We have now spent half an hour in de-
him at whatever length he pleases. The
The bating whether there is to be any further
hon. member's reply now does not neces- debate.
sarily close the debate.
An HON. MEMBER : No, only twenty
The CHAIRMAN : The proceedings minutes !
being in Committee, other hon. members
Mr. HIGGINS: I wish to address my-
can speak after the hon. member, Mr.
self very briefly to hon, members in reply.
Higgins.
I did conceive, until I was corrected by
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I trust
the hon, member, Sir William Zeal, that
hon. members will conclude the debate on
it would positively be improper for me not
the subject this evening. I have listened
to take notice of thestrong arguments which
to the arguments of hon. members who
have been used on both sides in this debate.
have elaborated the consideration of this
The hon. member, Sir William Zeal, for
2 B
346
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
whom I have a great liking and respect it, I may say, has been a matter of great
privately, seems to misconceive altogether difficulty, and nervous anxiety to myself,
the position which we occupy. What is the and has been done at considerable sacrifice
work we have to do? Is it to vote, or to to my own feelings—I say that the raising
debate and vote? I say that debating is of this question, even if unsuccessful as to
the most valuable part of our work. If he equal representation, may lead to such an
thinks that his repeated cries of " Divide ! adjustment as will, ultimately, enable us
Divide" are helping the federation of Aus- to carry federation, even upon its present
tralia, he is wrong.
impulse. With regard to the arguments
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The hon. used, I threw out a challenge to hon. mem-
member is misrepresenting me. I never bers to show the principle upon which
called, “Divide! Divide!" so that the hon. equal representation was to be based. I
member is wrong altogether!
have to thank the hon. member, Mr.
Mr. HIGGINS : Then I hope the hon. Symon, and others, who have manfully
member will not do it again.
faced that challenge. The difficulty, how-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I did not ever, with me has been to try and reduce
do it at all !
to simple terms what is the answer first
Mr. HIGGINS: I think this is too in principle. We must deal with prin-
serious a matter for us to indulge in pro ciple first. I cannot put in one sen-
tracted discussions as to whether there is tence the principle on which the argu-
to be further debate or not. I conceive it ment in favour of equal representation
to be our duty to debate this important rests. If you ask me,
" Can you put
question, no matter who cries out against proportional representation into a definite
it. I think hon. members will recognise sentence ?"
I would say,
" It means
that whatever may be the issue of this that you must count heads, instead of
vote, the indirect effect of this debate is breaking them.” If hon. gentlemen have
even still more valuable than our direct any simple formula by which they can put
vote. I think that those who are strongly equal representation into plain words, I
in favour of equal representation must feel shall be glad to hear it; but I have not
this : If they are sincere in their belief, as been able to understand it yet. We have
I think they are, all the colonies will look heard a great deal about historic identity.
to those who favour equal representation and preserving historic identity. The
for a strong expression of the reasons by answer to that simply is that we shall have
which they justify it. These reasons will the historic identity of Victoria, New
go out to the public, and hon. members South Wales, Tasmania, and the other
who favour equal representation will be colonies, preserved in their own govern-
able to rely upon the public being convinced ments and parliaments. What surely can
by the excellence of their arguments. I you want more than that? Is there any
must say this also, that if I can judge from formula, is there any sentence, is there any
the expressions of the leader of the Conven- shortly-expressed reason, which you can ,
tion, Mr. Barton, in his final statement, I extract from Story and the other writers
think it is perfectly clear that this debate who have been quoted, which can convince
on equal representation has led to a very people that equal representation is right?
modified tone with regard to the provision With regard to an expression used by the
against deadlocks. It is perfectly clear hon. and learned member, Sir John Dow-
that, if this matter of equal representation ner, the chief thing I could gather from
had not been raised--and the raising of his argument against me was that I had
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonu:ealth of
347
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
quoted "humpty-dumpty” wrongly. As anomalies in every good constitution and
to "humpty-dumpty,” I feel very sore.
I especially in the British Constitution. I
may be wrong on equal representation, but do not know where he got the idea. If
I do submit that there are two versions we recognise that there are anomalies,
of." humpty-dumpty." I gave one of the are we going to make anomalies without
two which I had in my mind, and which any sufficient motive? I recollect reading
I thought to be the most appropriate. The of an officer on the China station, who
only other argument he could use was that wanting a silk handkerchief made on the
because the northern army, when it was same pattern as a handkerchief he had,
in the full flush of victory, did not proceed handed it to a Chinaman to make a copy
forth with to stamp out equal representa- of it. The Chinaman brought it back with
tion in all the states in 1865, therefore, it ay stain on it exactly similar to a stain
felt that equal representation was right. which was on the first handkerchief, and
Sir, the position is this : In the Constitu- it turned out that the Chinaman had actu-
tion of the United States, equal represen- ally copied the stain as well as the hand-
tation is a matter of fixed law which cannot kerchief.
be altered by any change in the constitu- The Hon. E. BARTON: That is what you
tion; it must be done with the consent are trying to do between the federal and
of every state, and all the northern arny the state constitutions !
did they did professedly believing it to be Mr. HIGGINS: Are we to keep the
according to law.
All these war powers,
anomalies as well as the good principles
and extraordinary war powers they were,
which we find in the American Constitu-.
were justified by the federalists on the tion? This system of following the Ameri-
ground of the ultimate power which must can Constitution for the senate is simply
be involved in the constitution that a a Chinese imitation, and nothing else, and
state must protect itself and keep itself no one has shown yet how it is to be justi-
indissoluble.
As regards my hon. and fied by reason or common sense. My hon.
learned friend, Mr. Glynn, whose careful and learned friend, Mr. Symon, in his ex-
and eloquent speech we heard last night, cellent speech, to which I think we all
it is simply reduced to this: that he listened with intense interest, has said that
accused me of being illogical, that he our argument is simply for unification,
accused me of driving logic to excess. I am
and that we are met here for the purpose
afraid I wandered-from logic too far, and of having a federation. Can it be clearer
I was glad to hear my hon. and learned that a unification is simply where all sub-
friend, Mr. Deakin, remind me of it. What jects are committed to one parliament for
I have said right through is this : Do not every country, as Great Britain and Ire-
carry your proportional representation to land are under one parliament, and Ire-
an extreme. Give the small states a mini- land and Scotland are unable to deal with
mum, and give them some little advantage their own affairs? The distinction which
as against the large states in the senate, we draw, rightly or wrongly, is that for
simply to obviate their fear. All the the common subjects which pertain to these
speakers appear to admit that the small five colonies, we must be a unification,
states have nothing whatever to fear, but and that for the subjects which are not
still I say, if they have nothing to fear, common, and which we still retain, we shall
give them certain advantages. Then, sir, be still serered colonies. That is the prin-
Mr. Glynn's other argument is simply this: ciple; and it is no answer to us to say that
That I do not recognise that there are
it is unification.
348
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
measure.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Clause 52 Mr. Symon, has referred to Freeman and
contains matters of local interest!
his editor. He has also referred to the
Mr. HIGGINS: Why give them to the Achæan League at some length. I will
federal parliament? Of course everything briefly ask the Committee to consider a
which is given to the federal parliament is passage in Freeman which expresses not
a matter of local interest. What I want the opinion of the editor of Freeman, Mr.
to know is why, if you agree to give. Bury, but Mr. Freeman's opinion, and the
matters to the federal parliament, do the opinion of Montesquieu and Bishop Thirl-
states try to keep the control of those wall. On page 162 of the same book as
matters? The true provincialists are those he quoted, referring to what he calls the
who are going in for equal representation. Lykian League, he says :
My hon. and learned friend, Mr. Barton, I mean the wise and well-balanced federation
who has been so strong an advocate of
of Lykia, whose constitution has won the highest
federation right through, is a provincialist,
praise from Montesquieu in the last century, and
from Bishop Thirlwall in the present. The an-
and behind him are all the selfish forces
tiquities and the language of Lykia have lately
of provincialism to which he alluded in attracted the attention of scholars in no small
Parliament. The seltsh forces of provin-
To the political inquirer the country
is no less interesting as possessing what was pro-
cialism are still trying to retain for the
bably the best constructed federal government
states the control of matters which the
that the ancientworld beheld. The account given
states agree are to be left to the federal by Strabo, our sole authority, is so full, clear,
parliament. I think no
I think no one can deny
and brief that I cannot do better than translate
it. The “ancestral constitution of the Lykian
that.
League” is described by the great geographer
An HON. MEMBER: We do not want
in these words:
centralisation !
There are three and twenty cities which have a share in
Mr. HIGGINS: Centralisation I have the suffrage, and they come together from each city in
the common Federal Assembly, choosing for their place of
explained already. We will have perfect
meeting any city which they think best. And among the
citics the greatest are possessed of three votes apiece, the
severance and no centralisation as to the
middle ones of two, and the rest of one; and in the same
subjects for each colony. The difficulty in proportion they pay taxes and take their share of other
public burthens.
this matter has been that hon, members in
reasoning and speaking on platforms ap-
Then at page 165, referring to the fact
that in most of the ancient constitutions
pear to treat federation as if it were some
definite, fixed, rigid scheme to which we
each tribe or state, whether great or small,
must work up, no matter what happens, and
had only a single vote, he says :
it was well illustrated by the interjection
The Lykiaus avoided this danger by giving to
their cities a greater or less number of votes,
of my hon. friend, Dr. Cockburn, "Are we
according to their size, being the first recorded
to go back to pot-hooks?"; as if every one instance of an attempt to apportion votes to
had read some text-books, and in those text-
population.
books there was a definition to which we My hon. and learned friend has appealed
must all conform, or else make a mistake. to Freeman and to Freeman he shall go.
That is a very false attitude with which a Mr. SYMON : I have been there !
number of us are approaching this ques-
Mr. HIGGINS: The Achæan League
tion. Federation is not a question of text- was the only one to which the hon. mem-
books, but, as Burke says, government is ber referred, if these old precedents have
a mere human contrivance for the purpose anything to do with it. I am prepared to
of meeting human wants, and the question meet the hon. and learned member on his
is what will be the best contrivance for own ground. As soon as I try to meet
the purpose ? My hon. and learned friend, hon. members on the ground of logic, I am
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
343
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
told you must not be logical ; as soon as I to refer to one argument mentioned by Mr.
meet hon. members on the ground of his- Wise, in regard to the separation of Vic-
tory, I am told you must not refer to his- toria from New South Wales in 1851. The
torical precedents; and as soon as I refer hon. member's argument was, I think, mis-
to matters of expediency or practice, I am conceived. We Victorians are not going
told you are forgetting the pothooks of to give upour separate parliament. We have
federation. I must meet what I conceive no repentance about our separation from
to be bad logic by what I conceive to be New South Wales. Our separation was
good logic. I must meet what I conceive well considered, and has, I think, resulted
to be bad historical analogy by referring to in great advantage to both New South
good historical analogy, and I must meet Wales and Victoria. But at that time,
also questions of expediency by counter 1851, we had no railways connecting the
considerations of expediency. What I say two capitals--no railways running through-
is that there has been, as yet, no attempt out the continent as they do now. The
to justify this equal representation, except capitals were simply connected by a few
by reading from text writers a sort of vessels which took a week to go from one
loose statement as to the American sys- to the other. But even at that time—at
tem as matters of fact. The nearest thing the time of the separation of Victoria from
to it is what Mr. Bury puts, not as a New South Wales—Earl Grey did his
matter of expediency, but as a matter of best to bring about a kind of federation.
fact:
He failed. The time has now come. We
The object of both the ancient and the modern have a population now right down from
federations was to provide that both each state Sydney to Adelaide.
We have railways
as a whole and each citizen individually should
running between the capitals, and it is
have a voice in the federal assembly.
only fitting for us to have a union for
He merely states there a fact in federa- those purposes which are common to the
tion. The question is what are we to do? different colonies. But as to preserving
I submit that the true tendency of the the historic identity of Victoria we have
federal systems, which are likely to be not the slightest intention of giving it up.
more general as the centuries go on, en- The hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, has given
bracing far larger numbers of people within very valuable assistance to the arguments
their area, and leading to a great distri- which I put forward, and I think I ought
bution of subjects, so that people may be to express my regret that he cannot also
united on some subjects and disunited on give us his vote. I feel hon, members pre-
others--the true ideal of federation is that sent will be convinced that if that rote
the people shall rule on subjects of com- had not gone the other way at the Ade-
mon interest, and that within separate laide Convention, and if my hon. friend
organisations they shall rule as to mat- had not committed himself so far at that
ters which come within those separate Convention, his vote would have gone with
organisations. That would be a true ideal his voice on this occasion.
of federation ; but here, unfortunately, The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No, I was as
we are going back to the ruck; we are convinced then as I am now that without
going back to retrogressive legislation. equal representation we will not have
We are going to try and adopt the system federation !
which was adopted under pressure in
Mr. HIGGINS: I would not have said
America, and which they would never this if my hon. friend had not been pre-
adopt if they had to start again. I desire sent; but I still hold to my opinion that
350
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(10 Sept. 1897.]
no one could have spoken so clearly and The Hon. J. H. Howe: Does the hon.
forcibly against equal representation, and member think there would be any pos-
not given his vote against it, if he had not sible chance of carrying federation without
been in a corner with regard to the matter. . it?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I expressed
Mr. HIGGINS : I have expressed my
exactly the same view at Adelaide !
opinion before as to whether it can be
Mr. HIGGINS: It was expressed very carried in Victoria or New South Wales
late in the debate-after the representa- with equal representation. I know there
tives from Victoria had given away the are other opinions with regard to Victoria ;
position right off. I found in Adelaide but I know also this: that you may take
that the representatives of the less populous the views of the members of the different
states were pressing larger and larger de parliaments as indicating the views of their
mands in regard to their admission into constituents on the matter. If you take
the union. I should like to know, after the views of the members in the Victorian
this was once given away by the larger Assembly, there is not the slightest doubt
colonies, after it was once given away that, although the majority have voted for
without any reservation, how the repre equal representation with certain safe-
sentative of a less populous colony could guards, their sentiments are in accord with
possibly have expressed his own clear and mine and those of the Attorney-General
straight voice on the matter.
The repre-
that equal representation is false in
sentatives of the smaller colonies were principle and practice.
bound to take the concession which was Mr. WISE: The people are far ahead of
showered upon then unnecessarily and pre- the politicians in regard to federation !
maturely by the representatives of the other Mr. HIGGINS : It is all very well for
colonies. There is no doubt the hon, mem- politicians to decry politicians. One of the
ber, Mr. Peacock, hit the nail on the head greatest evils of political life is for poli-
when he said that the difficulty is that for ticians to be always using the name “poli-
several years back in Victoria as well as tician” in a disrespectful sense.
I think
elsewhere they have been assuming this if we do earn disrespect amongst the people,
matter of equal representation. I feel it is because we do not respect ourselves.
myself like a man pulling against a flood I may say I have only been three years
current, and although the vote will be in Parliament, but I have come to respect
against me, I feel convinced that the rais- members of Parliament more than I did
ing of this question will do a great deal of before I entered Parliament.
A strong
good to the immediate prospects of federa- point seemed to be made by the hon. and
tion. I feel sure that this matter, having learned member, Mr. Deakin. He says,
been considered and reasons given for and “If you have proportional representation
against it, along with the fact that the
in both houses you have no distinction be-
strong recommendation of the Legislative tween the houses, and, therefore, the senate
Council of New South Wales, backed up will really attempt to enforce its will to
by a considerable minority in Victoria, has deal with money bills.” That is the same
not been thrown aside of ignored, will old argument that has been trotted out
help those who think they can carry this against every attempt to improve an upper
constitution without equal representation house in these colonies. They are always
in it.
saying, “If you make the Upper House
Mr. LYNE : Also the Legislative As- more liberal you cannot give any reason for
sembly of New South Wales !
not giving it more power with regard to
Commonwealth of
351
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
money bills."
I decline to accept that interior of Western Australia you have a
reason as sufficient.
We must attempt to
rouseabout and a station overseer,
and that
make our upper house, as far as we can, you say that all that area is to be represented
amenable to the will of the people—the by one member, and no more, you might
only will I can recognise, especially having say that there the majority would still
regard to the extreme difficulty of moving rule. It is no answer. Why talk of plural
the people.
voting? I say it is enacted by equal re-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Which would the presentation in a still more outrageous
hon. member give the most power toma form ; for whilst you provide that no man
strongly based upper house or a weakly shall have more than one vote by saying
based upper house?
that he shall vote only once, you give him,
Mr. HIGGINS: It would all depend , by onescratch of the pen in one polling booth
upon circumstances. I think that if they in Tasmania, a power which is equivalent to
will think a little further, those hon. mem- eight votes. In place of having the trouble
bers who have laughed without under- in plural voting of going about from one
standing the meaning of my answer will booth to another, he, by simply going into
see that I am right. You cannot answer one booth in Tasmania and scratching out
that question without qualification-just one name, has eight votes to the New South
as my hon. friend, Mr. Dobson, to-day had Wales man's one. I am obliged to hon.
to qualify an absolute statement which he members for the kind way in which they
made, when he said that he would take have dealt with my arguments. I felt all
federation on any condition, and after through that I was doing my duty, and I
wards said he would do so if it were ac-
feel that I have done it.
cepted by the Convention and based on the Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [5•25]:
will of the people. Supposing that you have
I wislied to address the Convention at
a senate constituted with a certain qualifi- some length on this important question,
cation, with regard to proportional repre- but, if there is not to be an adjournment
sentation, in deference to the fears of the of the debate to-night, I do not feel able
smaller states, it will not and cannot be the to do so, considering that I have been two
house of the people; and, therefore, so longas nights in the train, which is not conducive
there is a senate-so long as an upper house to assisting anyone in dealing with a ques-
is deemed to be necessary—there will always tion of this kind. I do not wish to receive
be a good and solid reason for saying that any undue consideration from the Conven-
that house which does represent the people. tion, but, if there is not to be an adjourn-
by the number of heads shall have
supren-
ment of the debate, I shall not be able to
acy of power in regard to money bills. My express my views as I desire ; and I re-
hon, and learned friend, Mr. Deakin, said gret it more particularly because, from the
“in each colony the majority will rule-is earliestinception of this Convention, I have
thatnot democratic?" I interjected, "What considered that this particular point is the
about Old Sarum--what about the rotten kernel of everything, around which every-
borough system in England before the Re- thing centres, as far as the federation of
form Bill?” In Old Sarum there might have the colonies is concerned. Once this mat.
been six voters, and it might have been ter is settled, I think it is for good or ill
said, “ Among those six voters the majority as to whether we shall or shall not have
will rule. What could you have fairer federation. The smaller states, I was made
than that?” The same would apply in amply aware, at the Adelaide Convention,
Western Australia. Supposing that in the were intending to grasp all the power they
352
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
no!
could; and, as the hon. member, Mr. Hig- them, I think, absolutely illogical. I can-
gins, stated just now, they were induced, not conceive that any man could deliver a
I believe, to ask for more than they pro- logical speech on the side of equal represen-
bably would have asked for, by the action tation of the smaller states; and, as far as
taken by some members of the larger states the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, is con-
in conceding very largely a great deal that cerned, I think that his arguments have
was never asked for.
been almost absolutely logical. The only
The Right Hon. Sir J. FORREST: They point upon which he could be accused of
did not ask for more than they asked for not being logical is where he admitted
in 1891 !
the privilege of the smaller states to have
Mr. LYNE: I must differ from the a minimum of representation. To be abso-
right hon. gentleman. I must adhere to lutely logical there should be no minimum;
the view I took at the Adelaide Conven- we should deal with this question alto-
tion : that the action of a majority of the gether on the basis of population. It is not
delegates of the larger states assisted much the question of a large state, it is not the
to increase the claims and demands of the
question of land; it is the question of popu-
smaller states
lation that should govern the whole of the
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN, FORREST: Ob, Australian colonies, if we are to have that
representation which will satisfy the people
Mr. LYNE: As the hon, member, Mr. The taunt has been hurled at those who
Higgins, so justly said just now. I would entertain the views that I do that we are
like to ask whether in this Convention the against federation. One of the represen-
larger states are or are not to be domin- tatives of New South Wales the other
ated absolutely, and in almost every par- night asserted in my hearing that because
ticular, by the claims of the smaller states? I was against equal state rights, I was
Are we in New South Wales to be dictated against federation, Mark my words, sir,
to absolutely on this question, and are the that those who want federation are going
representatives of Victoria—a large state the wrong way about it if they adhere to
also--to be dominated also by the demands equal state rights in this bill. I do not
of the smaller states? I think it is unwise claim to know the feeling of the people of
that any such course should be taken. New South Wales better than others; but
Listening, as I have to-day, to only scraps I fancy I know it fairly well, and I am
of this debate--which has been an able strongly of opinion that with equal state
debate-I think it is to be extremely re-. representation the people of New South
gretted that there seems to be such an Wales will not accept the Convention Bill.
overwhelming determination in the Con- The Attorney-General of Victoria, Mr.
vention to listen to no argument
Isaacs, delivered a very logical speech
The Hon. E. BARTON : Surely that is against equal state representation, and his
not so !
vote, if he gives it in favour of that system,
Mr. LYNE: To listen to no argument will be an illogical vote. There are a very
without showing very strong symptoms of large number of electors in Victoria-I
irritation-I mean no argument that is on know a great many—who are against equal
the side of the hon. member, Mr. Higgins.. state representation, and it will be found to
The speeches that have been delivered be the case I think when there is an appeal
have been mostly made by the legal talent to Victoria on this bill, as I presume there
in this Convention ; they have been legal will be. I venture also to suggest that
speeches, some of them logical, some of there is not likely to be any federation
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of (10 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bili.
353
without the colony of New South Wales. logic, what logic there is in standing up
Anything inserted in this bill which is for equal state rights if you are going to
likely to jeopardise the measure in New import into the bill some machinery to
South Wales will be the strongest factor destroy the power of the senate elected
possible in preventing a general federation. with equal state rights? Mr. Deakin, I
I do not think two or three colonies can think, made it abundantly clear that un-
federate without the larger ones. I scarcely less he obtained some provision in the bill
think they would attempt to do it. I do that would be a solution of deadlocks be-
not believe that South Australia, Western tween the two chambers, his words would
Australia, and Tasmania would attempt to be different, and I think he said his action
federate without Victoria and New South would be different, regarding the vote on
Wales. These two being the larger and this particular question. It seems scarcely
more populous, and, at the present time, fair to ask the Convention to vote, to some
the wealthier states, some regard should extent, in the dark on this matter. I should
be had to the voice of the people in those like to ask my hon. friend, Mr. Isaacs,
two colonies in framing this bill. It is not whether if he votes in favour of the motion
necessary that I should reply to the intri- on the present occasion, and if, when it is
cate arguments advanced by the legal proposed to insert a provision in the bill
talent in the Convention on the side of giving power to the people to decide in
equal state representation. I think it case of deadlocks, that proposal is not car-
would be unwise to do so at the present ried, and the bill is framed with this hard
time. My object as a true federationist is and fast rule in it which will give to a
to see a bill framed that will meet the minority of the states the power of over-
views and the support of the people of whelming a majority--a power of over-
New South Wales, and I desire very much whelming all legislation that may take
to see a bill framed which I can support place by the representatives of the people
before the country. If equal state repre- ---I should like to ask my hon. and learned
sentation is inserted in the bill in the friend whether in that case he would be
bald manner in which it seems likely to prepared to accept the bill without the
be, however much I may be in favour referendum or anything that would get
of federation, I shall bave to oppose the rid of deadlocks between the two cham-
bill after it is framed in this Convention, bers? We are asked to vote on this ques-
and I should extremely regret having to tion as though the Convention had agreed
do any such thing. There is another fea-
to import that provision into the bill. I
ture that struck me when listening to some venture to think that before many days
of these debates. I listened attentively to are over, it will be found that no provision
the speech of Mr. Deakin, and I cannot see of the kind acceptable to the majority of
much difference between the views of that the people will be inserted. What was
gentleman and my own, unless I altogether the result of a vote on that question in
misinterpret what he said, for I interpret Adelaide ? The result was that such a
his remarks as having this meaning, "I provision does not appear in the bill
am in favour of equal state rights, pro-
vided you insert in the constitution some The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
machinery which will give a power of re- voting was pretty close on that occasion !
ference to the people in the case of dead. Mr. LYNE: I forget exactly what the
lock." I should like to ask those gentle- voting was.
men who have been saying so much about The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It was 18 to 13!
3
now.
2 C
354
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. LYNE: That is not a very close which will revise the work done by that
vote. Suppose the Convention decides that house-a power to refuse to pass and ab-
it will not insert that provision, or any pro- solutely veto anything passed in the house
vision of the kind, will my hon. friends, of representatives—is not that equiva-
Mr. Deakin and Mr. Isaacs, and other lent to giving a man in a small state
hon. gentlemen who are now willing to eight times the voting power possessed by
vote for equal state rights, be prepared to a man in a large state ? This seems to me
accept the bill with equal state rights, and an unanswerable statement.
You provide
with no provision to do away with the machinery for passing legislation up to a
possibility of deadlock between the two certain point; but when you get to that
chambers? It is, therefore, scarcely fair point you provide further machinery to
to ask the Convention to deal finally with block it from going an inch further. What
the question at this particular time. I is the use of the machinery created in the
would go a step further, and say that I first instance when the work of the house
cannot see that the adoption of the refer- of representatives can be blocked by the
endum, or any provision under another
upper chamber? We have had bitter ex-
name, but having the same effect, will do perience of that in this colony on more
away, to a great extent, with my objection than one occasion. The work done after
to equal state rights. I do not support arduous labour by the Legislative Assem-
equal state rights at all. I think it is
I think it is bly has been absolutely vetoed by the
ridiculous and absurd to suppose that an Legislative Council. Will the hon. and
elector, living in Tasmania, or in Western learned member, Mr. Barton, tell us that
Australia, should have eight or ten times if work is done in the house of representa-
the voting power possessed by an elector tives which the senate has the power of
living in New South Wales.
vetoing, the senate will not exercise that
The Hon. E. BARTON : The simple power? I venture to think that my hon.
answer to that is, that there is nothing in and learned friend has introduced a dis-
the bill to that effect !
tinction without a difference, and that I
Mr. LYNE: I beg the hon. member's am correct in stating that in the provision
pardon-there is.' Will the hon. member to be inserted in the bill, the representa-
deny that Tasmania, with a population of tives of the smaller state will be able to
160,000, and Western Australia, with a thwart the will of the majority of the
population of 130,000, can cach return people as expressed by their representa.
six representatives to the senate, while tives in the lower house. There can be no
New South Wales, with a population of answer to that.
I think that if we nega-
1,300,000, can only return the same num- tive the amendment this colony will not
ber of representatives?
accept the bill. My objection to equal
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is not what state representation would, to a very large
I meant. What I meant was that you extent, be done away with if there were a
do not give a man in Tasmania eight times provision, or if there were to be a provi-
as much power as you give a man in New sion inserted in the bill giving an oppor-
South Wales by providing for equal repre- tunity for an appeal to the people under
sentation in one house and proportional certain circumstances by way of refer-
representation in the other.
endum. If that is not done, my objection
Mr. LYNE: If you provide for propor- to equal state representation will remain,
tional representation in the house of repre- whether I am in a minority here or in the
sentatives and if you create another body country. If the members of the Conven-
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
355
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion desire to see the bill passed into law, because they are not the remarks which I
I counsel them to fully consider the ques-
had intended to make if I had had more
tion which is to be forced to a vote this time, I shall vote for the amendment.
evening-I think unwisely, because we I hope that my prophecy that its rejection
know that great regret was expressed after will do more to retard federation than any-
our meetings at Adelaide were adjourned, thing else will not come true, though I
because this matter, among others,' had think that it will.
been hurried through in such an undue Question—That the words “six sena-
fashion, in order that the Premiers might tors for each state" proposed to be omitted
get away to Great Britain.
stand part of the first paragraph-put.
The Hon. E. BARTON: This matter was The Committee divided :
not hurriedly dealt with in Adelaide. Any-
Ayes, 41; noes, 5; majority, 36,
one who said that in the press has spoken
AYES.
an untruth.
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
Mr. LYNE: I conceive that this matter Braddon, Sir E. N. C. James, W. H.
and every matter was hurried through. Briggs, H.
Kingston, C. C.
Brown, N. J.
During the last week or ten days of our
Leake, G.
Clarke, M. J.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Adelaide meeting we were sitting not only Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Lewis, N. E.
during the day, but for three parts of the Crowder, F. T. McMillan, W.
night, and I ask whether, under such cir-
Dobson, H.
Moore, W.
Douglas, A.
O'Connor, R. E.
cumstances, the minds of hon. members
Downer, Sir J. W. Peacock, A. J.
were in a condition to consider important Forrest, Sir J. Quick, Dr. J.
matters of this kind, and to deal with Fraser, s.
Reid, G. H.
them in a manner satisfactory to them-
Fysh, Sir P. O.
Solomon, V. L.
selves or to the electors-they represent. I
Gordon, J. H.
Symon, J. H.
Grant, C. H.
Turner, Sir G.
do not wish to detain hon. members longer; Hackett, J. W. Venn, H. W.
but if the arguments used by the represen-
Hassell, A. Y.
Walker, J. T.
tatives of the smaller colonies and by other
Henning, A. H. Wise, B. R.
Henry, J.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
bon. members who favour equal state re- Holder, F. W.
Teller,
presentation have not underlying them the Howe, J. H.
Barton, E.
desire that the smaller states should hare
NOES.
power to veto the will of the people in the Berry, Sir G.
Trenwith, W. A.
larger states, they can have no effect at
Carruthers, J. H.
Teller,
Lyue, W. J.
all. Hon. members might just as well not
Higgins, H. B.
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
try to force on the Convention and on this
colony the powers of the smaller states as Amendment (New South Wales Council
compared with the powers of the larger and Assembly) negatived.
states. I say that it is ridiculous for those Question—That the words and each
who favour equal state representation to senator shall have one vote," stand part of
imagine that the three colonies of South the paragraph resolved in the affirmative.
Australia, Tasmania, and Western Aus- Paragraph No. 1 agreed to.
tralia are fighting so hard for this right if
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
they do not wish to have a very strong Wales) [5.52]: In moving
whip to lay upon the shoulders of the re-
That the Chairman do now leave the chair,
presentatives of the larger colonies should report progress, and ask leave to sit again,
occasion require. Having made these few I desire to say a few words in reference to
remarks, which in a sense I apologise for, the observations of the hon. member, Mr.
356
Procedure.
Commonwealth Bill.
[10 SEPT., 1897.]
on.
Lyne. I must say, in all good-feeling and have been glad, had an adjournment been
respect for the hon.member, that I entirely agreed to, to speak at greater length than
dissent from his statement that the divi- I did.
sion which has just taken place was forced The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
I think hon. members on each side Wales) : When I said that I had made a
will agree with me in what I said earlier certain statement to an hon. member, and
in the afternoon—that is to say, that the that I had not heard any dissent from him,
debate had evoked every argument of he having been in the Chamber a little
which one had ever heard both for and while before he spoke to me on the sub-
againstequalstate representation. Imerely ject, I was not aware that in the interim
wish to say this, in order to relieve myself he had gone out.
of the charge of supposed complicity in the Motion agreed to; progress reported.
forcing on of any division. It was repre-
PAPERS.
sented to me that there were two gentlemen
beside the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, who
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST laid
wished to report progress and to defer the
upon the table financial and statistical
taking of a division, but on my putting the
facts relating to the colony of Western
matter before both of them, they very pro-
Australia, and a report by the Government
perly withdrew their request. I mentioned
Actuary of Western Australia upon the
that to the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, and
Draft Constitution Bill.
he said that although he would like to
Ordered : That the documents be printed.
have an adjournment of the debate until
Convention adjourned at 5:55 p.m.
Monday, he would not actually press for
it. Since the hon. member did not dis-
sent from my statement, I presumed that
he acquiesced in it. I wish to clear the MONDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
hon. member's mind of the supposition
that there was any desire on my part that
Procedure-Commonwealth of Australia Bill.
the debate which has just taken place
should be unduly forced to a conclusion.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
I think that what has occurred has fully
justified that which I said in the after-
PROCEDURE.
noon—and even up to the present moment The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic-
the statement remains true that is at 4 toria) (10:31]: Before the business of the
o'clock, that every argument of which one day is called on, I should like to suggest
had ever heard on one side or the other for the consideration of the leader of the
upon this question had been brought for- Convention, now that we have practically
ward in such a way as to be clearly under- disposed of the question of the constitu-
stood.
tion of the senatc, whether it would not
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales): I be in the interests of the movement and
merely wish to say that I understood from convenient to the Convention, if we were
three other gentlemen that they intended to take in hand the next difficult matter
to speak upon the amendment if an ad- the mode to be devised for settling dead-
journment of the debate took place until locks, should any arise, between the two
Monday. I certainly had no intention of houses. When we once know whether
making any harsh reference to the pushing we are or are not to provide any such
on of business ; at the same time, I should mode, and, if we are, what that mode is
a.n.
:
[The IIon. E. Barton.
Procedure.
357
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Procedure.
to be, I think it will facilitate the dis- ing to the practice of the Convention in
cussion with regard to the powers of the Adelaide, new clauses were not taken un-
two houses. I think that if we could til the whole of the clauses under the bill
deal with that matter almost immediately, under consideration had been dealt with,
it would clear the ground of a large num- and I may mention that owing to that cir-
ber of difficulties, and probably enable us cumstance I was compelled to leave the
to complete the business much more Convention at Adelaide without having
rapidly than if we were to discuss other taken part in that discussion, which I con-
matters, not knowing how we proposed to sider was the most vital of all.
settle difficulties that might arise between The PRESIDENT : Tbe rule is that new
the two chambers.
clauses cannot be considered until after the
The PRESIDENT: The matter can be dis- rest of the bill has been disposed of; and,
cussed and settled in Committee.
if any alteration in that respect is desired,
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South we must suspend the standing orders.
Australia) [10-32]: I would point out that Mr. WISE (New South Wales) (10.34]:
when a clause has been amended, its fur. I should like to invite the attention of the
ther consideration cannot be postponed leader of the Convention to a difficulty
unless we pass a motion to suspend the that we may be in when we come to the
standing orders.
deadlock clauses. Under the standing
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New orders under which we are working it will
South Wales) (10.33]: I am certainly not be necessary to put each of the three pro-
opposed to the course which has been sug- posals suggested by the various parlia-
gested by the right hon.member, Sir George ments in their order. We all know what
Turner. I do not know whether any difti- happens when three proposals for amend-
culty would arise owing to the fact that ing the same clause are put successively ;
such a proposal will, probably, take the generally the one put last is carried, be-
shape of a new clause. The ordinary rules, cause the supporters of the other two com-
of course, prevent us from proposing new bine to defeat the first and then the second,
clauses until the whole of the bill has been and in that way a real test of the feeling
dealt with.
of the Convention would not be obtained.
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: That is not I should like to suggest to the leader of
our practice!
the Convention whether it is not pos-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well, sible, either by suspending the standing
then, there is no difficulty in the way. Of orders or by modifying them in some way,
course it is a matter of South Australian to take first of all a vote as to whether
practice, and I am not able to say what there should or should not be in the bill
that practice is. Perhaps the hon. mem- a provision in regard to deadlocks. If
ber, Sir Richard Baker, or the President, that is settled in the negative, of course
might tell us what it is?
the matter will be finally dealt with, but
The PRESIDENT: What is the point ? if it is decided in the affirmative, then
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Any- might not there be a mode devised for ob-
thing in the nature of a provision in regard taining the opinion of the members of the
to deadlocks, I am afraid, must be in the Committee as to which of the proposed
shape of a new clause. I am not aware of schemes they really prefer?
any clause in the bill before us into which The PRESIDENT : I think that what is
it could be dovetailed; and, according to our desired might be secured by suspending
practice in this colony, and certainly accord- the standing orders and passing a resolu-
358
Procedure.
Procedure.
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
tion that new clauses may be considered The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Un-
when desired by the Committee.
doubtedly.
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South The PRESIDENT : I think the new clause
Australia) (10.35]: In reply to the hon. and ought properly to be taken after the rest
learned member, Mr. Wise, I would point of the bill has been disposed of!
out that under the procedure that we have
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: In refer-
adopted the difficulty which he suggests
ence to the suggestion of the Right Hon.
could not arise because we are treating Sir George Turner, the only matter of im-
amendments as substantive propositions portance to be dealt with under the head of
and any amendment brought forward can
the senate is the question whether the con-
be amended in any way so as to meet the
stituency shall be the whole colony or
wishes of the members of the Convention.
whether each colony shall be divided into
Therefore, there is no preference given to
different electorates. That is a very im-
the amendment first proposed, or to the
portant matter, and perhaps might be dealt
amendment last proposed.
with at once.
The PRESIDENT : That is so. I take it
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I meant
that an amendment would require to be
that after we had finished the question in
pertinent to the subject-matter of the
clause, and also to the suggested amend regard to the senate we should settle the
other questions !
mient, before the Chair. I do not under-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: And
stand at the present moment that there is
under the head of money powers, which
before the Committee any clause which
deals generally with the question of the
are also important, perhaps this question
solution of deadlocks.
of deadlocks might be taken.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New
South Wales) [10-36]: In the suggested South Wales) [10:37]: The suggested
amendments that are before the Commit- amendments can hardly come within the
tee there are three proposals under the category of the standing orders that require
head of “amendments to clause 56," and
that new clauses shall be considered after
putting forward three different schemes the bill has been gone through, because
for dealing with deadlocks.
by the act under which we are considering
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: And the these suggested amendments, whether it
South Australian scheme a little later!
is or is not a new clause, it is a suggested
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes.
amendment which can and must be con-
The PRESIDENT : Is that by way of
sidered at the time when the clause in the
amendment or new clause ?
original bill is being considered. Therefore
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : By way
I contend that any amendment, whether
of a new clause.
in the shape of an amendment or a parti-
The PRESIDENT: An entirely new clause? cular clause, or whether by way of substi-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes. tuting a new clause for that clause, is
The PRESIDENT: I think that that will equally within the consideration of the
require to be considered after hon.members
Committee.
have gone through the bill !
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No. It Wales [10•38]: Perhaps some relief may
is inserted in that part of the bill dealing be found in matters of this kind by the
with money powers.
consideration of the directions given by
The PRESIDENT : It is a new clause ! the statute which overrides the standing
[The President.
Procedure.
35.9
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Procedure.
orders. Where the business is directed by as to money bills; and then the deadlock
the statute to be reconsidered together with question, which is contingent upon the
the suggested amendments, that may mean question of money powers, which arise in
that the suggested amendments are to be connection with clauses 54 and 55.
considered at the same time as the clause to The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Before
which they relate. Whether they are or are you deal with deadlocks ?
not new clauses they are equally suggested
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think it will
amendments. There will be some diffi- be more convenient.
culty in considering the deadlock question The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:I think
at the present moment--first, because this the reverse!
proposal comes upon us rather suddenly, The Hon. E. BARTON: It seems to
and although we are able by the indul- me to work out this way. You want to
gence of the Chair to discuss the deadlock providem-that is the desire of many hon.
question, still we have not the deadlock members—against such a difference of
proposals before us on the clause which is opinion as will lead to a stoppage of the
now before the Committee, and hon. mem- legislative machinery. You cannot intel-
bers I think bave not come here with the ligently consider that question unless you
expectation of bringing forward and decid- first know how the two houses . are to be
ing to-day upon proposals to meet dead- constituted respectively and what powers
locks. The consideration of the deadlock they are to have in relation to money
bills.
question now might therefore plunge us It is generally conceded in endeavouring
into a discussion we are but little pre- to prevent deadlocks, that the disagree-
pared for, and everyone knows that that ments which arise are in nearly all cases in
might cause some bewilderment and a relation to money bills. Therefore, unless
little loss of time. But it is
But it is very desir- we understand first what is to be the consti-
able that these deadlock suggestions and tution of the senate, next that of the house
any we may have to make ourselves should of representatives, and thirdly what powers
be considered as early as possible. In they are to have in respect to money bills,
regard to that, I am quite at one with my how can we decide as to the way we will
right hon. friend, Sir George Turner. I deal with deadlocks? It seems to me that
suggest that the proper course is this : these things ought to be considered first. I
omitting minor clauses, let us deal with do not think that we shall be long upon the
the constitution of the Senate ; then with 9th clause, which has been so much referred
the constitution of the house of repre- to. The clause as to the constitution of
sentatives—because before settling dead- the house of representatives ought not to
locks we ought to know how the two take long. We might occupy a great por-
chambers are to be constituted. Indeed tion of the day in discussing the relative
before dealing with that question we ought money powers of the two houses, and after
to know how this Committee is going to that I think our minds will be prepared
decide as to the manner in which the to deal with the question of deadlocks.
senate is to be elected, whether each re- An Hon. MEMBER : You might take
presentative is to represent the whole that to-morrów !
colony or a constituency in a colony. These The Hon. E. BARTON: We might
are the points to be considered : First, the
take it immediately after we have dis-
constitution of the senate; next, the con- cussed the money powers, and postpone
stitution of the house of representatives; all the clauses except those relating to the
then the relative powers of the two houses constitution of the senate, the house of
360
Commonwealth Bill.
Procedure.
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
5
representatives, and their relative money
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
powers. If hon. members agree with that In Committee :
suggestion, it will ease our task consider- Clause 9. The senate shall be composed of
six senators for each state, and each senator
ably, and bring on the discussion on dead-
shall have one yote.
locks during the present week.
Then senators shall be directly chosen by
The PRESIDENT: In reference to the
the people of the state as one electorate.
remarks of the hon. and learned member,
The senators shall be chosen for a term of
six years, and the names of the senators
Mr. O'Connor, in reference to the various
chosen by each state shall be certified by the
provisions in regard to deadlocks, having
governor to the governor-general.
fully considered the matter, I may point out The parliamert shall have power, from 10
that the proper course is for the various
time to time, to increase or diminish the
number of senators for each state, but so
amendments—whether in respect of those
that the equal representation of the several
clauses or others to be submitted for con-
states shall be maintained and that no state
sideration—to be taken in the orrier in shall have less than six senators.
15
which they appear on the business-paper.
The qualification of electors of senators
It is not as if in the ordinary course the
shali be in each state that which is prescribed
by this constitution or by the parliament as
clause is proposed for the first time in
the qualification for electors of members of
Committee ; but we have them before us the house of representatives, but in the 20
already, and further by statutory enact- choosing of senators each elector shall vote
ment they are referred to the Committee
only once, and if any elector votes more than
once he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
for consideration, and there is nothing to
The CHAIRMAN : Amendments in the
prevent their consideration in the order
in which they stand.
second paragraph have been suggested by
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
the legislatures of the five colonies, with a
view to omit the words “one electorate."
South Wales) [10:43]: Are we to under-
stand that we finish the constitution of
I intend to put the widest amendment,
to omit those words, because that includes
the senate, then that of the house of repre-
all the others. That amendment can be
sentatives, then take the money powers,
treated as a substantive question, and be
and next the deadlocks?
amended in any way.
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is so-they
would arise consecutively!
Question proposed–That the words (as
The Right Hon. G. II. REID : It does
one electorate) proposed to be omitted
stand part of the clause.
appear to me that the deadlock question
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: A similar
should come after the debate on the consti-
amendment has been proposed by the Tas-
tution of the two houses, because dead-
manian Parliament, an amendment which
locks are not confined to money bills; a
has the same effect as that of the South
provision in respect to that would be a
Australian Parliament, but somewhat
general power. I have no objection to
larger.
either course as long as these matters are
The CHAIRMAN: Four or five houses
taken in the order which the hon. and
have proposed practically the same amend-
learned member suggests.
ment. The question is : That the words
The PRESIDENT : With regard to new proposed to be struck out stand part of the
clauses in the ordinary sense of the word paragraph.
which have not been referred to the Com- The Hón. E. BARTON (New South
mittee and are not capable of being con- Wales) (10.47]: I do not know whether
sidered by way of amendment, the ordinary the Committee would like to go to a
rule of procedure will apply.
division on a matter of such importance
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
361
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
us,
i
as this without debate. This amendment methods of election by providing in the
means that, instead of there being only bill as it stands that, whilst in the one
one electorate, as provided for in the con- house we give due weight to the principle
stitution, the members of the senate shall of local representation, with regard to the
be chosen in each state as the parliament other, which is opposed to regarding the
of that state shall provide.
state in its local interests, you ignore the
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: We principle of locality, and suggest that there
have not got to that yet!
should be united action on the part of the
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is exactly state. That is really the matter before
what we have come to. That is the amend- I thought it wise to point out this,
ment which has been put. I want to point so that the subject should not be dealt
out that this is a most serious amendment. with in a hurry, because it involves a wide
It may indeed be the desire of the Com- principle indeed.
mittee to leave full authority to each state The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
parliament to elect its own quota to the (Western Australia) (10.51] : I have no
senate as it may determine, but we must doubt the alteration suggested by the hon.
have regard to the fact that that is not the member will, from a theoretical point of
proposal that found favour before. We view at any rate, commend itself to hon.
decided before that each state should as members. If you agree that we should
one electorate elect the senators, and by have a vote of the whole of a state con-
that we decided upon one important prin- centrated upon the election of the mem-
ciple, and that was that the quota of each bers of the senate, it will be theoretically
state to the federal parliament should be right under the constitution we are trying
elected by that state as one corporate body to build up; but there are difficulties in
by the vote of the entire electorate of that the way, practical difficulties which will,
state. The bill of 1891 was on the same I think, as time goes on nullify to a very
principle, because it provided for the elec- large extent the good that the hon. mem-
tion in this respect of each state legislature, ber points out from a theoretical point of
and in that respect it recognised the cor- view. A great change in public opinion,
porate existence of each state. It provided, at any rate, a great change of opinion
therefore, that without regard to locality from the Convention point of view, has
within the state the senate should be elec- come about since 1891.
In 1891 we
ted by that state as one whole. If we are to agreed by a large majority to follow the
adopt an amendment of this kind, or those plan which was time-honored, at any rate,
other amendments which provide for split- which has existed for a hundred years in
ting the state up into so many electorates, the United States, that is, that the mem-
we shall lose the principle of united action bers of the senate should be elected by
on the part of the senate, and give a force the various state legislatures. I can under-
to locality which, it seems to me, we ought stand well enough the objections that have
not to give in respect to the election of the been raised to that system, especially if we
senate. The force to be given to locality had to elect a large number of members every
is to be created by the proposal that the time, but when we recollect that the elec-
members of the house of representatives tion will only be of two or three members
shall be elected by districts. But, in deal- at a time it seems to me that plan would
ing with the place which the senate occu- have done very well for us, and that it
pies in a constitution of this kind, we have would be more likely to yield good results
drawn a broad distinction between the two than the plan proposed in this bill. How
362
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
(13 SEPT., 1897.]
will it be possible to ascertain public bally I should not be found complaining
opinion truly with regard to a number of very much. But I fear that it will not be
candidates over an immense area with a the result. My objection to this plan is not
large population? There will be great theoretical; I think such a system would
difficulty. I think the chief reason why be excellent theoretically, but I object
this plan has commended itself to many from a practical point of view. We have
hon. members has been the result of the immense territories now which by-and-by
election of members of this Convention. will be thickly populated. Take Western
They cannot but think that a system which Australia, for instance, or South Aus-
worked so well and so wisely in returning tralia, with her Northern Territory, and
such, able, true, and patriotic members to her boundaries running right down to the
this Convention as they themselves are southern ocean. Take Queensland, or New
must be an excellent plan and one likely South Wales. How will it be possible to
to work well in the future. I am quite get a true vote from the people in those
prepared to admit that it has worked ex- territories with regard to the candidates,
ceedingly well during the first election, who will not be able to visit all the
I admit it as fully as anyone in this con- localities, and who will not be able to
vention. But I believe that as time goes travel from one end of the country to the
on, instead of having the voice of the other to address the electors unless they are
people represented under such a method millionaires and have nothing else to do.
of election, you will have a host of cliques They could not afford either the time or the
and rings voting by ticket from one end expense necessary to visit the various parts
of the country to the other. People will of one state. The system is altogether too
be called upon to vote for persons of whom unwieldy to be suitable. Under this plan
they have never heard, and of whom they which we are adopting it seems to me the
have no knowledge whatever, who, pro- most that we could do would be to have
bably, have had little experience of public three electorates in every colony. Three
life; and the electors will be called upon members go outperiodically, and there must
to vote for a certain number of candidates therefore be three electorates. We cannot
by one party or another, by one clique have more than three electorates.
or organisation or another throughout the Mr. HIGGINS : Would not three electo-
length and breadth of the country. It is rates be huge also ?
a great advantage in an election if you The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
can bring the elector as close as possible Yes, but not so huge as a whole state
to the candidate so that he may know some-
would be. It will be necessary to have
thing of the man for whom he is asked to the electorates very large, seeing that the
vote. That, of course, is fully recognised franchise of both houses is to be the same,
in the elections for our various legislative the object being to have the voting power
assemblies. The candidates are men fairly spread over an extended area rather than
well known to the electors by repute, or
to establish different qualifications for the
by intimate knowledge and association. electors. I am sure that tbree electorates
In the case even of a colony like New
would be large enough for every colony.
South Wales, if the whole colony is turned The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Why not leave
into one electorate, it will be a great ad- the question to be decided by each indi-
vantage to the more prominent men-the vidual state?
men who are best known throughout the The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
country. If that would be the result, pro- I would leave it to each state to say whether
[l'he Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
363
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
one.
they would have one electorate or three; The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: How
but I think we should have either one or would the hon. member do when three
three. The proposal submitted by the Par- senators went for re-election ?
liament of Western Australia is that there The Hon. S. FRASER : Let them cast
should be one or more electorates, as each lots, and let three members belonging to
state may determine. It must be one or certain electorates go for those seats.
three electorates, because three members
An Hon. MEMBER: Only half the state
retire at certain periods, and there must would be voting!
be one member for each electorate. I have
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: You must
made these obseryations, not with any de-
have either one or three !
sire of dwelling on this subject too long,
The Hon. S. FRASER: I think that
but in order to place my view before the
three constituencies will be better than
Convention. The proposed system is too
.
unwieldy, the people will not know whom
It is not possible for any candidate
they are voting for, and candidates under
to canvass any colony, even the smallest
ordinary circumstances will not be able to
colony -
visit the electors. They will have to ad-
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: So much
dress the electors by post-card, and great
the better for him !
scope will be afforded for tickets, cliques,
The Hon. S. FRASER: So much the
and associations to try and force upon the worse for his constituents, perhaps ! No
people of the country persons holding their matter how well he may be known, unless
particular views. Altogether, I think it he goes to the various centres of population
would be wise to provide in this bill that and even to the minor centres, indeed, he
it will be optional for the Parliament of will lose very many votes. Even though his
each state to say whether it shall have opinions may be the best possible opinions
more than one electorate. In my opinion,
he loses votes. I have known candidates
it must be either one or three.
who did not visit some places to lose many
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [11]: votes. It is a common saying of the people,
I agree with my right hon. friend, Sir John - If it is not worth his while to come here
Forrest. It is all very well to say that
it is not worth our while to vote for him."
the Convention elections were very suc- It is not a very high standard certainly for
cessful-I am not going to deny that; but people to set up, but it is the usual way in
a political election might be very different which candidates are dealt with. I would
indeed from a convention election. The like a candidate to have an opportunity to
issues are totally different. In a conven-
place his views fearlessly before the voters,
tion election, the candidates are judged it might be perhaps in opposition to the
according to their past history, their press. What possible chance would a can-
patriotic statements, and their long stand- didate have, no matter how true and good
ing; but in a political election men will his opinions were, if he were in opposition
be elected on their opinions, and no doubt to the press ? If the colony is one elec-
their education and character will stand torate I have no hesitation in saying that
for a great deal : they will not stand the press will have almost all power, and
for all. Therefore, I would support the scarcely a single man will get elected to a
amendmend of our own Council, namely, convention or succeed in a political con-
that there shall be as many provinces as test against the united opinion of the press.
there are senators——six provinces for six In a smaller province it would be possible
senators.
for a candidate to make his views known,
364
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
&
and even stand in opposition to a strong found most convenient, and for that rea-
press or any other opposition. A man son I shall support the amendment when
would be taken on his merits better in that
it is proposed.
case than he would if the colony were one Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) (11.7]:
constituency. I will support the proposal I admit that there is a great deal to be
to have three or six electorates rather than said on both sides of this question. At
one electorate.
the same time, I think the tendency in all
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania) these colonies during the last few years
[11:5]: I hope that the amendment sug- has been to decrease the size of the elec-
gested by the right hon. member, Sir John torates. I am speaking now of our present
Forrest, will be agreed to for many rea- system of single electorates. I am speak-
sons, but especially for this reason that ing from the standpoint of this colony. It
the principle has been recognised in all is only about four years since we had
our discussions, both in the Convention double electorates in the country districts,
of 1891, and in the Convention at Ade- and quadruple electorates in the city and
laide, that as little interference as possible in the suburbs. Our last Electoral Act did
with the independent action of the separ- away with that system, and we have single
ate states should be embodied in the bill. electorates now all through the colony in
In the Tasmanian Parliament I opposed order, as the hon. member, Mr. Fraser,
the suggested amendment to strike out mentioned, that no member shall have
the words “one electorate," mainly for to travel over too large a portion of
this reason that there is a very strong de- the country, and that he shall come in
sire on the part of very many persons who touch as nearly as possible with the elec-
have taken a prominent part in public tors. Even supposing that we should
affairs in Tasmania, and I am happy divide New South Wales into six elector-
to say amongst a great many who have ates, those gentlemen who know something
not taken a prominent part in public of this colony will know the area of the
affairs, to apply to the election of senators electorates. I will describe one elector-
in that colony the Hare system. We can ate, and I presume in the division we
only do that in Tasmania if we have one will have to take into consideration the
electorate. I pointed out that if it were number of people residing in a certain por-
inconvenient, as I have no doubt it would tion of the country, and not the area
be, for the larger colonies to have only one alone. If you take the summit of Kosci-
electorate, it was for those colonies to sug- usko and run the backbone of the range
gest an alteration of the clause, and not right round to Moss Vale, or near to Moss
for us to whom it would not be a matter Vale, and take a straight line from there
of inconvenience. I am satisfied that if to Bourke, all the country to the south or
it were possible it would be far better, on south-west of that will be one electorate-
the principle laid down by the hon, and a principality in itself. And so also will
learned member, Mr. Barton, that we should the western and northern portions of this
have only one electorate, but I recognise the colony form electorates of immense area.
fact that owing to the enormous area of I think a very strong reason is given by
the larger colonies, perhaps it is imprac- · my right hon. friend, Sir John Forrest,
ticable. I think the Convention would do that if we allow the country to remain
well to leave it as proposed to the parlia- as one electorate we will have a system
ment of each colony to divide that colony of tickets
of tickets on which the elections will tako
into one or more electorates as may be place, and one single portion of a colony-
[The Hon. S. Fraser.
Commonwealth of
365
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
for instance, the city of Sydney, or the guide us. I desire, at this point, to say a
city of Melbourne--can rule the whole word in reference to a speech made the
colony.
other day on the state rights question.
Mr. HIGGINS : Apply the Hare system, Mr. Wise said that in this colony no regard
or some other modification ; it will correct was had to the numbers of people in the
it largely!
various electorates. The hon. gentleman
Mr. LYNE: I am not sufficiently ac- is absolutely wrong. In dividing the colony
quainted with the Hare system to say
under the electoral act we fix the number
whether the objection can be overcome in of electors in each electorate. The num-
that way. Possibly it may be overcome in bers are the same in the town as in the
that way; there may be a solution of the country.
difficulty. Without some solution, I think Mr. McMILLAN : They are practically
the colony should be divided, not into one the same. They vary one or two hundred !
or three electorates, but into six elector- Mr. LYNE: Yes, they vary very slightly,
ates. I cannot see the virtue of having one and they vary simply because we cannot
electorate or three electorates.
get, within one or two hundred, the num-
An Hon. MEMBER : The objection is ber required in some of the country dis-
that only half the state would vote on the tricts. At the same time, in some of the
election of three members !
country districts, the numbers are greater
Mr. LYNE: After the first election half than they are in some of the suburban
the number of the senate go out. There districts. I am well acquainted with this
may be some argument in that; but I am matter, because at the time we were deal-
firmly convinced that it would be better in ing with this provision in Parliament I
the interests of all parties if the colony opposed it on the ground that if we gave
were divided into six electorates rather an equal number of electors to the cities
three. According to the schedule of sug- which we gave to the country towns, the
gested amendments which has been sup- latter would be obliterated by the city.
plied to us from both the Legislative Coun- My friend, Mr. Copeland, who was debat-
cil and the Legislative Assembly of New ing the question at the time, pointed out
South Wales, the suggestion, I think, is that the country constituencies, whose
to have six electorates, and from the Legis- members lived in Sydney, would represent
lative Assembly of Victoria we get the the city perfectly well if it had no special
same suggestion.
representation at all.
The Hon. S. FRASER : From the Council The Hon. N. E. LEWIS : The numbers
also !
vary now from 1,400 to 3,200. The
Mr. LYNE: I did not notice the sug- smallest is Lismore with 1,400, and the
gestion of the Council; but in each case, largest Marrickville with 3,200.
as far as I am aware, it was made by an Mr. LYNE: I think the hon. member
overwhelming majority. Although, in the will find that the act provides for a margin
vote we gave the other night, the recom- of 600. It is only where circumstances
mendation of some of the parliaments was will not permit of it being otherwise, that
not approved of, I think we should give any discrepancy occurs.
There are in-
some consideration to the suggestions made stances where, in some of the suburbs, the
by the various parliaments on all matters numbers are not equal to those in the
where we consistently can. Here is a strong country districts. I only wish to refer to
suggestion from two houses in each colony the matter because it
the matter because it was debated at the
which, I think, to a large extent, should time, and because it applies to present con-
366
Australia. Bill
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
come on.
by lot.
ditions. I think we should, as far as pos- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It will,
sible, limit the districts in such a way that if we have tbree electorates !
each person standing for election can go
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Not
through the whole of his electorate and
necessarily; because, as the constitution
make himself known to the whole of his
stands, given the first six senators, lot de-
constituents.
cides who shall go out in three years. There-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZLAL: Make his
fore, lot decides how the elections will
opinions known!
It is quite possible that two or
Mr. LYNE: Yes ; he should be able to
three electorates will be in one corner of
make his opinions known, and no weak
the colony.
portions of the country should be obliter-
ated by senators running on tickets.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
Mr. WISE: As a matter of personal ex-
hon. member, Sir John Forrest, suggests
planation, I wish to state that I had in-
dividing the colony into three electorates !
tended myself to have made the correction The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
to which Mr. Lyne has referred to-day. I not dealing with Sir John Forrest's sug-
was in error in stating there was anything gestion, but with the bill as it stands.
in our law giving a different quota to one Under the bill as it stands the question as
part of the country compared with another. to what three senators will first retire at
The effect, however, is precisely the same, the end of three years is to be determined
although the law provides that there shall
be the same quota for all electorates. By
An HON. MEMBER: The bill refers to
the necessary use of the margin of 600, only one electorate at present !
there are inequalities created in order to
give adequate representation to the inter- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes, but
ests of local districts. The difference is as
quite in harmony with that provision is
large as has been pointed out by Mr. Lewis. another provision to the effect that three
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
senators shall go out at the end of three
South Wales) (11:14]: I agree with the years. Then ever afterwards three will go
hon. member, Mr. Lyne, that this is a out at the end of each three years. There
matter upon which a great deal can be
never will be an election of six senators for
said on both sides. My own opinion is
one state after the first election. When the
strongly in favour of the clause as it matter settles down there will always be
stands. I feel that, unless you have a
an election of three senators at the same
system of this kind, the power of the states
time, at intervals of three years. That is the
will be practically frittered away, and
provision in the bill as it stands. There-
they will have a fractional representation fore it is quite possible—in fact it is more
instead of a states representation,
than possible—that under such an arrange-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Local interests
ment the views of the colony as a colony
will divide their representatives !
would never be heard. With this fractional
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Yes, in representation we shall never have any
a number of ways. Then, unfortunately, means of ascertaining the views of the
under an arrangement which provides that whole community. I should imagine that
half the senate shall go for election every
the states would look at that matter rather
three years, the country, under this sub- closely.
division, will never have an opportunity
The Hon. J. H. Howe: Should not we
of expressing its views at all.
leave that to the state ?
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
367
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
any rate.
Omit so
Victoria says:
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I quite strength in a senate of this kind is by an
admit, strong as my opinion is, that this election by the whole of the people at one
is pre-eminently a matter upon which the time. That is my strong opinion, and I
states have a right to be heard. If only
believe that experience will show it to be
two, or perhaps three, states had suggested right. Still this is a point which is not
vital, and it is a point upon which the
this alteration, I should feel so strong in
local legislatures have a very strong riglit
my opinion upon the subject that I should
to be heard. Under these circumstances,
certainly stand by the bill; but I find that
giving my opinion frankly as I have
each of the five colonies has suggested the
done, I am prepared to let the colonies
alteration in principle—that is to say, each
hare their own way in this one matter at
of the five colonies has objected to the
scheme contained in the hill. For instance, Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania) [11:21]: I
New South Wales says:
should very much like to see the colonies
as one electorate,” insert "such state voting as single electorates, and in Ade
being divided into electorates, each returning laide I voted for this proposal with the in-
one senator.”
tention, when we resumed our sittings, of
moving an amendment providing for the
Omit" as one electorate," and insert a prori. election of the members of the senate upon
sion leaving the matter to the Parliament. the Hare system. Upon considering the
South Australia says:
inatter further, however, I have come to
Omit “one electorate,” insert "each state
the conclusion that the application of the
parliament shall determine."
Hare system to the election of senators is
a matter for legislation by the federal par-
liament, and not a matter to be inserted in
Omit as one electorate," insert “in such
the constitution. For this reason I do not
manner as the parliament of each state shall
determine.'
intend to move the amendment of which I
Western Australia says :
gave notice. In respect to this particular
Omit "
as one electorate,” insert, "as the
as the par-
matter I regard the senate as the states
liament of each state may determine.'
house. It is tlle house in which the various
Therefore, in view of the fact that the five colonies will be represented as states, and
states by their parliaments unanimously it is a matter of great importance that each
object to the provision we have made, and state should be left to decide how it should
in view further of the fact that this is a elect its representatives. For these reasons
matter peculiarly for themselves to settle, am in favour of the amendment which has
I think- although I would adhere to the been indicated, leaving the matter to the
original clause under less pressure than parliament of each state. I know that in
this-that with the enormous pressure put
Tasmania our Parliament is likely to re-
upon us by the fact that each colony solve upon the Hare system as the method
through its parliament objects to the pro- of electing the senators. Another reason
vision, we must respect the suggestions why I do not feel inclined to press my
which have been made. I feel perfectly amendment with regard to the Hare sys-
sure—if one can feel perfectly sure about tem to a division is that I have just heard
anything in the future—that the states from the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, that he
themselves will very soon discover that is completely ignorant of the system. He
they have made a very great mistake; that does not know what it means. There may
their only chance of being up to their full also be a number of other hon. members
Tasmania says:
368
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
ral one.
who are not acquainted with it, and who that if we put a rigid direction in the con-
would, therefore, vote against it for that stitution that there shall be one electorate
reason alone.
in each colony; or, if we put in an equally
Mr. LynE: I said that we had had no rigid direction that each state shall have
practical experience of its working here! the right to determine the matter for itself,
Mr. CLARKE: You cannot have prac- we may be doing that which it will be
tical experience of it until you have tried very difficult to alter, and which may have
it. It has not been tried in this colony, very far-reaching and important results.
but it has been tried in Tasmania. I I would point out one matter which may
should not like to see Tasmania prevented bear directly upon the subject. According
from adopting the system.
to the views of several hon. members, you
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Under this have later on to decide upon the question
amendinent Tasmania would not be pre- of getting at the popular voice to avoid
vented from adopting it!
deadlocks and extreme cases which can
Mr. CLARKE: Tasmania has a much only be settled by an appeal to the people.
better chance of getting the system from If we constitute the senate in such a way
her own Parliament than from the fede- that you cannot get at the voice of the
In our view, for the proper people as states, it may create a very great
working of the Hare system it is much difficulty in the future.
better to have a number of seats to be The Hon. S. FRASER: It would be the
filled. If half the senators are retired voice of the people in another way!
every two or three years, there will be Mr. MCMILLAN: We are trying to
only three seats to be filled at any one determine what we cannot possibly deter-
election, and three seats is the lowest mine, not knowing the conditions of the
number with which you can satisfactorily future.
future. I am speaking now as if we
work the Hare system. The lowest num- determined in the constitution that the
ber we have had in Tasmania is four. I voting should be by districts or by states
think the system has worked very satis- as electorates. You might have a colony
factorily in our state elections, and we in which there would be room for only
might possibly use it as a method of elec- one electorate, or for two electorates. If
tion to fill three vacancies in the senate.
we now crystallise it in this bill, it can-
For these reasons I think the matter not be changed, except in a roundabout
should be left for each legislature to decide way.
for itself.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Will the hon.
Mr. McMILLAN (New South Wales) member explain how there could be two
[11:25]: With every desire to accelerate electorates when there would be three
business, I think that this is a question vacancies to fill ?
upon which we ought to proceed with the Mr. MCMILLAN: Well, I simply mean
utmost caution, when we recollect that the to say that it would be a difficult thing to
principle of taking a popular vote for the decide what number of electorates there
election of members of the senate has been should be in each colony. If you provided
more or less, so far as the general public for six electorates in each colony, it might
is concerned, a very late evolution of the be difficult in some of the colonies under
federation question. I think it is very diffi- certain conditions to carry out that
arrange-
cult for us to decide at the present moment ment in the future.
what is best in the interests of the senate Mr. LYNE: The proposal of the New
and of the constitution. What I fear is South Wales Assembly would not limit
.
[Mr. Clarke.
Commonwealth of
369
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the number to six. They suggest that the the present time is, and I express it with
electorates should be in proportion to the great timidity, that we ought to leave the
population, and that there should not be provision as it stands in the bill, but make
less than three senators to represent any it subject to any alteration which the
state.
federal parliament may in the future de-
Mr. MCMILLAN: I want it to be un- vise. And then, if parliament is not in
derstood that I am, speaking generally, unison with the people of the country we
against making anything rigid with regard can, of course, have that alteration of the
to the conditions of the future. For in- constitution which is the last resort.
stance, supposing--and it is very right to Mr. HIGĠINS (Victoria) [11:31]: I
say so--that it may be wise at the present shall give my vote in favour of one elec-
moment to have one popular vote for the torate. I think it is a grand idea to have
election of members of the senate, we do at least one house in this parliament which
not know that in the future there may not will be free from the deteriorating tendency
be large cities and large districts in these of local interests. I think it will tend to
colonies which will insist upon an altera- inake those who represent the people in
tion in the plan. Therefore, I shall be the senate free of the clamour of noisy
very much inclined and I confess it is a coteries in their constituencies. They will
question which requires a great deal of be able to ignore unreasonable demands
light cast upon it-to leave the provision made by a thousand or two electors, who
in the bill as it is, subject to alteration by might be able under other circumstances
parliament in the future. Now we come to to dictate a policy to weak candidates. At
the contention that this is absolutely a state all events, whatever is done, we must not
question. We have decided with regard accept the suggestion of the Right Hon.
to the lower house that the franchise and the Preinier of Western Australia, and
everything connected with representation leave the matter to the local parliaments,
there shall be a matter for the federal par- because it is really not a matter of local
liament. We know, of course, that the
The mode in which members of
case is not analogous, because this is a the senate are elected in Victoria affects
state-house. At the same time, I feel that, equally the people of Western Australia,
whatever is agreed upon, we ought to have South Australia, Queensland, New South
one consistent kind of representation; Wales, and Tasmania. They are all affected
that is to say, there should not be one by the votes of the members who are elected.
electorate in one state and several in I say, therefore, that the mode in which
another. Because it seems to me that if the members of each state are elected is a
we are to have cases in which the senate matter of federal concern, and I think the
is deeply at variance with the house of right hon. gentleman can hardly have real-
representatives, and if it is necessary to ised the extent to which gerrymandering
know what the opinions of the states as a can be carried on in a particular state if
whole are, in these sparsely-populated colo- he would suggest that it should be left to
nies where some districts may contain only the local parliaments to decide this ques-
a handful of people it would be absolutely tion. If a local parliament has to decide
impossible, even if the senate were dis- it, then by a careful adjustment of the dis-
solved, to say that it came back with the tricts of the senate and a careful arrange-
mandate of the people. Therefore, as it ment of the population in those districts, it
is necessary for us to give definite opinions would be competent for the local parlia-
in order to accelerate business, my view at ment to unduly colour the principles of the
concern.
2 D
370
Aristralia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
members of the senate. I hope, therefore, the demands made upon us to have com-
that we shall leave to the local parliaments mittee-rooms all over the colony, or to use
a matter which is purely one of federal those arts which are sometimes employed
concern. As was pointed out at the last in order to reach the people.
meeting of the Convention by the hon. Mr. WISE: A very euphemistic expres-
member, Mr. Holder, each colony in the sion!
federal parliament isinterested in the mode Mr. HIGGINS: Of course, the hon. and
of election to the senate of all the mem- learned member, Mr. Wise, knows as well
bers for each state. In this matter I am as does any one here. how a man may be
aware that I am opposed to the views of a driven by the demands of supporters into
number of those who are with me upon this thing, that thing, and the other. If
the general principles of the constitution. members of the senate are elected by the
They say that the principle of having the whole colony, you will be apt to give
whole colony as one electorate is a bad effect to what Sir Henry Parkes in 1891
one, and that under it only rich men will termed the only conservatism possible in
be elected. I think if the question be a democracy, the conservatism which arises
looked into more closely it will be seen from official position, from length of ex-
that true safety lies in either small. elec- perience and weight of character. And
torates or in an electorate so huge that it although I do admit that there is a danger
cannot be influenced by rich men. I think of the operation of what is called the party
we are all desirous that any man, no mat- ticket, of only one party being represented
ter how poor he may be, shall be in a posi- in an election by the colony as a whole, I
tion to become a member of the senate, think that any one who looks carefully
and if you adopt the huge electorate of the into the matter, will see that by the adop-
whole colony the result will be that those tion of the Hare system, or something of
arts which are used for the purpose of that sort, it will be quite possible to avoid
getting rich men into the House will be the whole of the members being elected
impracticable. No candidate could cover upon a party ticket. I am one of those
the whole colony with his committee-rooms; who have no fear of the due representation
no man is able to incur expenditure on
of minorities. I think it is our duty to see
account of the whole colony in the way in that we give voice to any substantial
which and to the extent to which he would number of electors; but if any one has
incur it in a large district. I have no watched, as Mr. Lýne may watch, the work-
doubt that the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, is ing of the Hare system in Tasmania--it is
profoundly affected by the value of the applied also in Denmark—where it has
reform of single electorates which has been been adopted, he will have seen that the
carried in New South Wales. But the hon.. effect of that system, or a similar system
member will find it quite consistent to and there have been several modifica-
have small electorates for a house which tions proposed—is to give a true reflex of
is to represent largely local interests, and the bulk of opinion in the country. If the
to have the huge electorate of the colony country, as a whole, is as two is to one for
in respect of the other house.
a particular policy, it will be found that,
appeal in this matter to the experience of under some system, such as that of Mr.
those who were elected to this Convention. Hare, you will have members returned in
Speaking personally, I can say that I never the proportion as two is to one. That is
fought an election with less expense.' We the theory. But one very strong argu-
all found it absolutely impossible to meet ment has been used by Sir Samuel Griffith
Let me
[Dr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
371
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
in regard to this matter : He says that, asking, and when we mean later on to con-
for the large colonies, such as Queensland, tend that the money powers of the senate
South Australia, and Western Australia, shall be as much as possible those of the
the machinery is too cumbrous and com- other house, we want particularly to be cer-
plicated—that you cannot, under such cir- tain that the gentlemen who are returned
cumstances, have an election for the whole by the colonies to the senate shall represent
country. But, under the proposal of one the majority of the whole colony. If the
district for each senator, or three districts electorates are cut up, they will still be very
returning two members each, you would large, as Sir John Forrest had to admit.
still have equally cumbrous machinery. They may be divided, and what guarantee
There would be the same expenditure ; under any system we know of at.present-
but, in place of having the whole country except perhaps one in New South Wales,
bebind the man
which, I understand, may be a little help
The Right Hon. Sir JOHNITORREST: Have in that way-shall we have that the ina-
you that in the house of representatives? jority of the votes will represent the ma-
Mr. HIGGINS: I think it is of great jority of the people? If we have the sena-
advantage to have local interests--even tors returned by the whole colony voting
small interests—well voiced somewhere in as one, Sir John Forrest says, the people
Parliament, and the house of representa- will be voting for what they do not under:
tives, I take it, will give voice to those stand. I am not prepared to concede that
interests and wants. You cannot be too to my right hon. friend. I think nowa-
careful in enabling local interests to be days the persons who practically run and
represented ; but if you have the house of guide elections, the active elements in
representatives elected by comparatively elections, know perfectly well everything
small districts-one member for each-and that is going on without the necessity of
if you have the senate representing the the member attending the particular place
whole colony, I think that will do. I would where they happen to live to make speeches
cordially indorse the suggestion thrown to them.
out by my hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, and The Hon. S. FRASER : The electors want
I think the clause might be altered by the to know the views of the candidates!
insertion of the words “until parliament The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: They
otherwise provides.” If the federal parlia- may not know the men so well personally,
ment should find that this method is un- they may miss the charm of their speech
workable, they will be able to alter it. But or the fascination of their presence, but so
of all the schemes that have been put for- far as the general views of the candidates
ward I deprecate most that scheme which concerned the electors know these
will leave to the state parliaments a matter possibly a great deal better from the
which is clearly of federal concern—the kind public press and other reports than from
of electorates for the federal parliament. speeches which though they might arouse
The Hon. J. W. DOWNER (South their enthusiasm might be destructive of
Australia) [11:42]: I have always pre- their judgment for the moment.
ferred the bill in the form in which we The Hon. S. FRASER : They like to see
passed it, from the point of view of digni- the candidates face to face !
fying ihe senate as much as possible. I The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : They
adinit frankly that that is the point of can in a sense see them face to face.
view from which I always spoke, and from
Mr. CLARKE: The candidates can send
which I have always acted. When we are their photographs !
are
372
Australia Bill.
Commonivealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: You pleases. But it is not at all clear that in
cannot possibly have more than three elec- Switzerland the dignity of the senate is
torates, and how many electors will have being maintained as it is in America.
an opportunity of seeing the candidates An Hon. MEMBER:
face to face? It is true, as Sir John For- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Be-
rest said, that in America they are elected cause the people would not agree to it,
by conventions
because we have to be practical, and we
The Hon. W. MOORE : They are elected must not say we will not have federation
by the states !
because we cannot get it in the way that
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : They pleases ourselves. I feel also that the
are elected by the local legislatures. But senate will be ever so much stronger when
my right hon. friend thinks that if you it is directly returned by the vote of the
have election by the people you will have people than by the votes of persons elected
a different kind of election from election by the people. It is because it will be
by the local legislatures. I think not. stronger, because its power will be greater,
For my own part I supported this altered that I prefer the method adopted in the
system of electing the senate—the devia- bill. But I want the senate, in addition, to
tion from the American system for the be a body that will invite the best men
purpose of making the senate stronger so in Australia to become members of it.
that it shall more directly represent the
Out of that will not come trouble and con-
people. But if you cut up a colony into fusion or difficulty with the other branch
districts, and have persons of diàmetrically of the legislature. Out of that, on the
opposite views returned from districts which contrary, will come good understanding,
have diametrically opposite interests, the wisdom, and content. It is from the point
effectiveness of the representation will be- of view of preserving the high dignity of
come weaker and weaker. There will be this body by making it secure reasonable
no whole-hearted support about anything. uniformity of views amongst the members
And in the same breath in which you are returned by one colony, and also preserve
doing this you are asking that equal both its utility to its colony and its dignity
powers should be given to the senate. to itself, that I hope no alteration will be
Equal powers can only be given to the made.
senate because the senate represents the The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
states as entities, and apart from the Then why not elect the house of represen-
people as population. But if you go and tatives in the same way?
cut up your entity and make it into a The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
duality, or a trinity, who can say who re- house of representatives represents the
presents who, or where you get any cer- people as individuals. From his smile, the
tainty? And another thing, I look upon hon. member seems to think that he has
it as a matter of the highest importance made a point against me by that remark,
that you should invite to your senate the but he really has not. He forgets that it is
best men of Australia. However you con- a federation that we are making, and that
stitute it, its ultimate dignity and useful- we are not going in for amalgamation; and
ness will depend on the invitation it gives on consideration the hon. gentleman will see
to the best men and the brightest intellects. that we do not disagree with each other so
In Switzerland the principle of state right much as he thought. I do not think this
is carried out to perfection, because each is a time to make long speeches on this or
state is allowed to elect its senators as it any other subject. I only hope that hon.
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
373
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
members who come from different colonies The CHAIRMAN : I wish to state to
and who see the manifest convenience, as
the Committee that if the words are
pointed out by the Right Hon. Sir John left in, Mr. McMillan will move to add
Forrest with his usual clearness, of con- at the end of the paragraph the follow-
ducting these elections in districts instead ing words :-"until parliament otherwise
of throughout the whole colony, will also provides."
observe that the very foundation of the Mr. LEAKE (Western Australia)
constitution of the senate will be shaken [11.52]: If we are to view this question
by this method of conducting the elections, merely from the standpoint of convenience,
and that the very importance we wish to I think we may at once see that the divi-
establish and preserve will be destroyed sion of the colonies into different elector-
by a consideration for the personal con- ates would meet with approval; but I
venience of certain electors.
should like to direct the attention of
The Hon. E. BARTON : Not the people, hon. members to the wording of this para-
but the candidates really !
graph :
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : The senators shall be directly chosen by the
Would not the system advocated by the people of the state as one electorate.
hon. and learned gentleman give an undue If the senators are to be directly chosen
advantage to the crowded centres of popu- by the people of the state, can they be so
lation ?
chosen unless as one electorate ? That is
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I think one difficulty that presents itself to my
not. The right hon. gentleman put with mind. And, again, suppose the different
great eloquence the excellencies of particu- 'states are cut up into different electorates,
lar candidates returned to this Convention it must necessarily follow that those elec-
on popular representation, and we frankly torates will return one or two members, as
admit that. But the right hon. gentleman the case may be. How, then, in the event
said that we must not be deceived by of death or resignation, would those states
that, and that the same thing might not find themselves placed ? It might possibly
happen again. That is just where I dis-
be that one division of the colony would
agree with my right hon. friend. I think
have an opportunity of returning senators
that on great questions like this parties
two or three times, and that that particu-
cease to exist. There is no tory, there is
lar division of the colony would be taken
no liberal. Every man in his own colony
to be expressing the views of the whole
is to a great extent a tory if you like.
state, whereas, really and in fact, it would
Internal politics have nothing to do with
be expressing only local sentiment. That
the principles which actuate men when
occurs to me to be a point well worthy of
they are returning members to fight their
consideration. Iadmit that when this ques-
battles in other colonies. Their one desire
tion was before our own local Parliament
is to select the men who will be able to
hold their own against the other men whom I supported the proposition that the matter
they will meet. As there was no occasion
should be left to the states to determine,
for anxiety in the recent Convention elec-
actuated as I was by the question of con-
tions we need have no anxiety that under
venience. But, in considering this ques-
the federation each colony will not endeav- tion, I take it that we should not be guided
our to dignify itself by sending to the senate merely by local interests, and view it from
the men whom it thinks will best preserve
that narrow standpoint, but should re-
the entity of the colony and the dignity of member that we are attempting to build
the senate itself.
up a constitution, and that state interests
374
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
must give way to federal interests. I The result of making that addition to the
point out these little difficulties more in clause would be that you would give power
the spirit of argument than of assertion, to the federal parliamentnot only to declare
and hope that other hon. members will that there should be several electorates,
refute what I have said if refutation is but also, if they were so minded, to deprive
necessary. So far as the question of vot- the people of the states of their direct
ing on a ticket is concerned, I cannot choice, by providing some other franchise.
say that is a disadvantage, because we That of course is not the desire of my
hear so often that it is measures and hon. friend, and I think that we might
not men we require when we send men meet it by making the paragraph read as
forward to represent us in public institu-
follows:
tions. Whatever we do, we should safe-
The senators shall be directly chosen by the
guard ourselves against returning the people of the state, and, until the parliament
roads and bridges politicians who are,
otherwise determines, as one electorate.
perhaps, known to some of us in our dif- Mr. McMILLAN : If my hon. friend will
ferent colonies. In politics a local man draft the necessary alteration I will accept
is not always the best man, and, as has .it !
been pointed out by other hon. members, The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
we require the best representative men am sure that the desire of hon. mem-
of the various states. I am impressed bers is that whilst giving to the federal
with the arguments which have been ad- parliament the right to deal with the ques-
vanced in favour of the state returning tion of electorates, we should at the same
senators by one electorate, and I am time retain as a fundamental principle of
disposed to support this paragraph of the constitution-unalterable except in
the clause as it stands. If we adopted the mode provided for the alteration of
this course our senate would undoubtedly the constitution—the right of the senators
be a more popular and representative to be elected by the direct choice of the
chapiber than if the states are pratically people of the state. I know perfectly well
divided into separate and distinct muni- that in connection with large electorates
cipalities.
there are inconveniences. There is the diffi-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON culty of canvassing the whole electorate, and
(South Australia) [11.55]: I am prepared there is the increased expense. On the other
to vote for the clause as it is. I think, hand there are great advantages which it
however, that it might be of importance seems to me weought undoubtedly to retain.
to give the federal parliament power to I am prepared to do what I can in this
work out the federal salvation from time. connection for the purpose of establishing
to time, as necessity arose, by appropriate a senate which shall be representative of
legislation, and I will support any amend- the state. I do not see how it is possible
ment in that direction. At the same time, to constitute a senate in which each mem-
I suggest to my hon. friend, Mr. McMil-
ber can rightly claim to represent the state
lan, that the amendment he has proposed from which he has come, unless he is re-
goes a great deal too far. I understand turned by the voice of the state itself, not
that what he proposes is an addition to the by any portion of it.
by any portion of it. Not only is it desir-
clause, so that he can make it read as fol-
able that this right should be given to
lows:
each member in order that he should be
The senators shall be directly chosen 'by the
able to exercise his proper influence as a
people of the state as one electorate, until other-
wise provided by the federal parliament.
member of the senate; but at the same
[Br. Leake.
Commonwealth of
375
[13 SEPT., 1897.)
Australic Bill.
It
time if he speaks on behalf of the state, preservation of the interests of the state on
and not in the interest of any particular national questions; but the furtherance of
locality, there is less chance of clashing local interests in opposition or in contra-
and of deadlocks, which we are all so de- distinction to the wishes of the entire
şirous of avoiding. The hon. member, Mr. people.
Lyne, has put it that in the large districts The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
the interests of the populous centres—and Would that not also apply to the represen-
he referred to Melbourne and Sydney— tative house as well ?
may be found to be predominant.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I
occurs to me that wherever these populous think not. That house is intended to re-
areas are the greater is their influence present the various interests of the people
likely to be according to the limit which irrespective of their state boundaries. The
is imposed on the constituencies. Sydney Senate is broughtinto existence to represent
or Melbourne is more likely to exercise a the states as states, which no man can do
powerful sway within a limited area, it unless he is sent there by the voice of the
seems to me, than in districts constituted state.
of an entire colony.
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria)
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It [12:4] : I trust that hon, members will not
gives country districts a better opportu- vote for this proposal to constitute a state
nity of being represented !
one huge electorate. It seems to me that
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : so far from giving greater representation
As the right hon. membersaysitgives coun- to the state it will confine the representa-
try districts a better opportunity of being tion to very few men. Only well known
represented. It raises this intense proba- men will be returned. It is idle to say
bility that, instead of a member being there that a man, if he had ever so much talent,
who is justified in claiming to speak on but who is not known, would be able to
behalf of the state from which he comes, get returned. Outside the district where
he can only speak on behalf of the par- he was known he would have no chance.
ticular electorate. I do not understand His claims would be set aside. With what
that a senate is intended to be called into bad effect has the present system worked ?
existence for such purposes, and it would We have a senate in our province returned
be a misobievous thing if it were. Under by districts, and I have not heard the charge
the guise of a body designed for the pro- made against the members of that body of
tection of state interests, consisting of re- being intensely parochial. It has been
presentatives of the states, speaking on rather the contrary. Members of our
behalf of the states, we should have a Council represent the province as a whole.
number of men representing diverse local They have an electoral body consisting of
and parochial interests -- a sort of thing 185,000 electors. I can speak for my
which ought not to be encouraged. brother members when I say that matters
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : On are dealt with in the Legislative Council
the other hand, they might be elected only of Victoria from a national, not from a
by one or two leading cities !
local, standpoint.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Such men would Mr. HIGGINS: So expensive are the
be sacrificing the interests of the state to elections to the Council that only few men
local interests !
can become candidates !
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The hon.
The contest then would not be for the member is altogether wrong; he cannot see
376
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
anything good in connection with the Legis- especially those from the country, should
lative Council of Victoria. If we had thein- well consider. Take the two cases of Mel-
estimable advantage of that hon. member's bourne and Sydney. A large number of
presence for a month or two he might alter votes cast in Melbourne and Sydney would
his opinion. The hon. member speaks en overwhelm the votes of the country dis-
tirely from theory. It seems to me that tricts, and it would be altogether impos-
this question is one of great importance. sible for a local candidate to obtain any
Our House has taken a great liking to the recognition whatever if the votes of those
system of voting by post. It does so on large centres were cast in favour of other
this ground : that where we have elec- candidates. I therefore appeal to hon.
tions in districts principally populated by members to remember that in dealing with
farmers and pastoralists great difficulty is this question they have to deal with all
experienced in getting the voters to come kinds and conditions of electorates. It is
to the poll.
A farmer will not leave his true that in some of the provinces, notably
business to come in and record bis vote. It Tasmania, there are not these large centres
we had a system of voting by post, it of population but when it is borne in
seems to me that in the majority of cases mind that Melbourne itself contains more
we might get a large number of voters to than one-third of the whole voting power
record their votes, and thus take part in of Victoria, you will see how neces-
the elections. With regard to the argu- sary it is to have some counterbalance so
ment used by the hon. member, Mr. Leake, as to prevent Melbourne from outvot-
as to the members of this Convention being ing the rest of the colony. The hon. mem-
opposed to having roads and bridges mem- ber, Mr. Lyne, has pointed out that the
bers in the senate, I would point out that same argument applies to Sydney. I am
the states house would have nothing to do sure the best interests of the colonies will
with votes for roads and bridges—with be consulted only by leaving this local
money votes. That will be confined entirely question to be dealt with by local legisla-
to the house of representatives.
tures. It is purely a matter which con-
Mr. LEAKE: I used that as a metaphor! cerns them. Without detracting from re-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: It has no presentations made by hon. members who
value whatever. The initiation and dis- will hereafter be members of the house of
cussion of these votes will rest entirely representatives, I would point out that the
with the house of representatives. With area and population represented by a mem-
regard to the size of the electorates, I ber of the states house would, in the
would ask how would it be possible for the majority of cases, be five or six times as
candidates to travel around any of the large as those represented by a member of
huge proposed electorates ? Take the case the house of representatives. Therefore I
of New South Wales. It would take two fail to see where this parochialism comes
years of a man's life to go all round the in. It would be rather a question of too
province of New South Wales alone. As large an electorate, even with the sub-
for the province of Western Australia a division of each colony into six elector-
man's lifetime would not be sufficient for ates, and even then it would be very hard
such a work. If a candidate is to obtain for a member to become personally ac-
personal knowledge of the electorates we quainted with and to do justice to his con-
must make the electorates of much smaller stituents. I shall strongly support the
area than is proposed. There is another subdivision of the colonies into several
question which, I think, hon. members, electorates.
[The Hon. Sir W. A. Zeal.
Commonwealth of
377
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [12:10]: I en- yield to the state legislatures in their recom-
tirely disagree with the hon. member, Sir mendation, but by so yielding I believe we
William Zeal, that this is a local question. should inflict a most serious blow on the
'I consider it is one of the most important principle of equal state representation.
of the federal questions contained in this certainly one of the strongest arguments
bill. I must also express my surprise at in the late debate was that the senate is to
hearing such a large number of represen- represent states as states in their corporate
tatives of the smaller states supporting capacity and corporate entity.
this proposal. I believe that if they carry The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Until
the amendment suggested by the legisla- parliament otherwise provides !
tures, and destroy this principle of state Dr. QUICK : I admit that is a safe-
representation, they will to some extent
guard which may to some extent protect
injure the cause of equal state representa- the principle, but if you amend this bill
tion, for this reason : One of the strongest now by providing that the various colonies
arguments in favour of equal state repre- are to be represented in this states house,
sentation is that the state is to be repre- not as wholes but as sections, you play into
sented in the states house as a staté entity, the hands of those who desire to destroy
and in its corporate capacity. If you de- this constitution by attacking the prin-
stroy the proposed system of state repre- ciple of equal state rights. For these rea-
sentation through one state electorate you, sons I hope the bill will be kept in its pre-
to a very large extent, play into the sent position, or be in some way guarded
hands of the opponents of the principle of as suggested by the Premier of New South
equal state representation. I can under- Wales.
stand my hon, friend, Mr. Lyne, strongly The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
supporting this amendment, but I cannot Wales) [12:13] : I do not want to detain
understand the right hon. member, Sir the Committee, but after having listened
John Forrest. There can be no doubt that to the arguments, I still think we ought
the recommendations of the various pro- to retain the provision in the bill. I attach
vincial legislatures are entitled to very great the greatest weight to the fact that the
weight indeed, and it is a remarkable cir- parliaments of five colonies have suggested
cumstance that this is a suggested amend- alterations in this part of the bill, but I do
ment, in which the whole of the legislatures not find that these parliaments concur, be-
unanimously concur.
cause two are in favour of division—those
The Hon. E. BARTON : They do not concur are the New South Wales and Victorian
in this !
parliaments. The Legislative Assembly
Dr, QUICK : They are not unanimous at any rate is in favour of division.
as to the substituted proposal, but they are The Legislative Council of New South
unanimous in striking out the principle of Wales is not in favour of any alteration
a single electorate. I, therefore, atter a of this portion, but it is in favour of pro-
word of warning to my friends from the portional representation in the senate,
smaller states who want to retain equal while it is not in favour of splitting the
state representation. They should regard colony up into electorates. With reference
this question very seriously indeed, in the to the argument that the parliaments con-
manner suggested by the hon. member, Mr. cur, they only do so in the form of words.
McMillan. No doubt, as suggested by the It is not in all cases an agreement, and we
Premier of New South Wales, we might must remember that in two of those cases
make a concession in this case. We might the division of the state into electorates
378
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
has been suggested, while in the other three should go any further with regard to the
the choice of the whole matter has been suggestions, than give them every weight
left to the decision of the state parliament, to which their reasonableness may entitle
so that it is impossible to say that the two them. I would urge hon members not to
legislatures first mentioned cuncur with the depart from the bill, for the purpose of
other three. It has been suggested that the having something which may result in a pie-
desire of several colonies is represented in bald senate. I would rather see the matter
these suggestions, and, therefore, that we left as each state parliament shall deter-
ought to follow them. These suggestions mine than see the state split up into several
represent the desire of several houses of electorates. Still, there is this difficulty:
legislature; they do not necessarily re- If you leave the senate to be chosen as the
present the desire of several colonies. Hon. parliament of each state may determine, you
members who were elected here by popular are likely to have a piebald senate, you
choice were probably elected with some are likely to have one method of election
reference to the views which they held possibly in one state, and another method
themselves, and I think that the majority of election possibly in another state. That
of those who were elected hold the view would lead to a kind of senate whicb,
which was implanted in this bill in our being diverse in its origin, diverse in its
last session. They represent the people method of election, would not in the same
quite as effectually as any persons who way represent consistently the views of
were ever elected in any of the colonies the states as the other house would con-
could represent the people. More than sistently represent the views of the dis-
that, they were chosen to deal with a par- tricts. That, I think, will be a calamity,
ticular subject, with reference to which and those who hold somewhat strongly the
the members of the various houses of opinion that the senate should have, at
legislature were not chosen. Without dis- any rate, some semblance of power with
paraging the standard of the hon. mem- regard to money bills, I would ask to con-
bers of the various legislatures, and cer- sider whether it is likely that any import-
tainly with not the least desire to detract ant power with regard to money bills can
from the effect or weight of their sug-
be conceded to a senate of which it is im-
gestions, I say we were elected to perform possible to forecast the composition. On
a specific duty, and that duty remains the other hand, if you know that there is
We may fairly be described at some consistent way of electing the senate;
this stage as a court of review, taking if you know exactly how it is to be com-
into consideration all that has been urged posed, you can then judge for yourself at
or suggested by the various parliaments, this stage whether it is a body to which
as a matter of reason, and still exercising you would intrust any degree of money
that choice which our reason dictates as power or not? If you are going to have
being the best means to effect the desire of the colonies split up into half a dozen elec-
those who sent us here. I cannot concur in torates, you first will have the inconveni-
any argument that because several houses ences of thatcourse of action which have been
of legislature have concurred on this sub- pointed out, and next you may say good-
ject, therefore we are bound to accept what bye to any idea of having your senate
they suggest. That is not so. If we did characterised as a body which represents
so, we should simply forget the mandate the states. There will not be a states house
which we received when we were sent here. at all, and in proportion as there is not a
Therefore, I put by the argument that we states house, it will lose its claim to be a
with us.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
379
113 SEPT:, 1897.]
Australia Bill.
strong important factor in this constitu- matter to the several states to determine
tion. For all these reasons, therefore, I you will have a piebald senate, the composi-
suggest that the splitting up of the state tion of which cannot be forecast, and as to
into districts is not a good thing for the which there will be a difficulty in saying
elector, because the general good of his what powers you will trust to it. If you
state must be the best thing for the elector. split the colonies up into various electorates
It may be a good thing for the candidate then you will have the result that your
in. saving him a more extended canvass; senate does not represent state entities as
but we are not here to cater for the pre- such.
dilections or wishes of candidates; we are The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
here to see how we can arrange that which Australia) [12:22]: A great deal has been
is best for the interests of the states in said on both sides of this subject, and no
the federation. It is said that there will doubt there is a great deal to be advanced
be great difficulty in regard to this ques- for and against each side. The people of
tion of canvassing. We had no great a state can best be trusted to know what
difficulty of that kind in the recent federal is best for their own requirements, and
election. I had to make a few trips into this matter I think we can very well leave
the country, but at no great distance. to the determination of each state. Each
An HON. MEMBER : Because the hon. state will find out what is best adapted
member was so well known !
for its requirements; each state will adopt
The Hon. E. BARTON: I had to de- that mode which it thinks is the very best
liver a good many addresses in various for itself. I think the greater diversity
forms—very often the public requested one we allow the greater our freedom from
to deliver an address—but I did not find bondage will be. I shall vote to give the
that there was attached to this system of greatest possible liberty to the states to
election all the expense which has been exercise their own discretion in this matter.
suggested, and I arn fortified in what I Mr. MOMILLAN (New South Wales)
say by the experience of nearly every one [12:23]: I find that there is a difficulty in
I know who has been elected. There were putting the amendment exactly as I moved
some who went to inordinate expense, but it. I would now ask leave to withdraw
a great many of those who went to inuch the amendment, so that the paragraph may
expense were rejected. On the other hand, read in this form :
the hon. member, Mr. Trenwith, has stated The senators shall be directly chosen by the
in this Convention that his election by the people of the state, and until the parliament
otherwise determines as one electorate.
entire population of Victoria cost him
£3 3s. or thereabouts. My election cost
That would prevent the amendment from
me £100 less than any election for a referring to anything except the question
separate constituency ever cost me, and I of one electorate.
think the experience of other members was The CHAIRMAN : I will lay aside the
the same. Let us leave that aside, because amendment for a moment, and put the
we are here to decide not on the conveni- amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
ence of candidates but on the good which McMillan, which comes in first. Question-
is to be conferred on the states in the That the words "and until the parliament
federation. We, therefore, have to con- otherwise determines," be inserted after
sider this matter really on the effect which the word "state," line 5-proposed.
the different metbods of election will pro- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
duce. I submit that if you leave the South Wales) [12:24]: I hope the Com-
::.
380 Commonwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
mittee will leave the clause as it is. Many
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Of course
strong reasons have been given why this an alteration of that sort can be vetoed by
matter should be left in the hands of the the senate; hut is there any reason why a
state.
question of that sort should be left to be
An Hon. MEMBER : Yet it is a state settled in that way? If it is an essential
matter !
part of the constitution of the senate that
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: What it would consist of representation of the
we want is to create a body the composi- whole state only, would it not be a wise
tion of which will be certain, which will thing to leave that as a fixed part of the
be strong, which will be fit to be entrusted constitution, in the same way as we leave
with the powers we are going to give to it, other parts of the constitution ?
and inasmuch as we are fixing in the consti- Mr. HIGGINS : It is an experiment, and
tution the powers which are to be given to we ought to have a loophole !
the senate, I think we ought equally to fix
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
in a general way the constitution of the member will see that it is not an experi.
senate itself. The constitution of the house ment. Of course, if it is only an experi-
of representatives is fixed. The constitu- ment-if it is only a matter of convenience
tion of the house to which we will give -I quite assent that it would be as
powers which are to be used in origination well to leave it to the senate, to develop
should also be fixed. My strong reason opinion in the future in the commonwealth
for advocating this view to the House is But I say it is not a matter of conveni-
this: In the different parliaments the ten- ence; it is a matter of principle, that the
dency has been to suggest the cutting up of whole of the state, as a state, should be
the representation of the senate into divi- represented, and that local interests should
sions, and the tendency will be always so in not be represented. I would point out, as
the parliaments, and none the less so in a an illustration, the danger of an altera.
federal parliament, for this reason : That tion of the constitution of the senate
the method in which the election in the There are many cases in which the expen-
senate is to be carried out will be very diture of money will have to be dealt with
largely regulated by the views of the by the parliament-expenditure in cities
house of representatives. The views of expenditure in regard to postal and tele-
the house of representatives are generally graphic arrangements, and expenditure in
in favour of the representation of local in- many other ways. There may be very strong
terests, and as the representations of local pressure brought to bear on the federal par-
interest would, it appears to me, not only liament to have money expended in a par.
be not desirable to be secured, but would ticular locality. No doubt we admit now
aim a blow at the very constitution of the that that is a strong reason why there should
senate itself, I think we ought to be very not be local representation in the senate;
careful, not only that we do not constitute but that strong pressure which wishes to
the senate in that way now, but that we carry out its desires in regard to expenditure
do not leave it in the power of parliament in a particular locality will very soon find
in the future to take any step which may that the obstacle standing in the way is the
derogate from the position of the senate, as representation of the whole of the commu-
we constitute it, and the senate which we are nity in the senate; and, if that is to be over-
willing to invest with such large powers. come by a local representation, the same
Mr. HIGGINS: An alteration of that kind forces will very easily initiate an agitation
can be vetoed by the senate !
for the purpose of having an alteration made
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Conmonwealth of
381
13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
—that is to say, thatthe same forces which and the whole of the interests of the
are always at work in order to endeavour colony are now represented in the upper
to make the senate a body representative house. I should not like to say that
of local interest will be at work in the previous to that the representation was
federal parliament itself, and will probably the representation of the whole of the
sooner or later bring about an amendment people, or the whole of the interests of the
or an attempt at an amendment which will colony. The arguments produced by various
introduce the evils we are now struggling speakers seem to me to lead up to this:
to avoid. I hope the clause will be left as that we, as a convention, are afraid to
it is, because it appears to me that it is a trust the very states that have sent us
principle of the constitution of the senate here. I' say that this is purely and essen-
with which we are dealing, and one which tially a state matter, and it does not follow
ought to be as firmly fixed in the consti- if it is relegated to the states, that they
tution as any other portion of the consti- will take a different view from that which
tution of the senate.
we have taken. They may say that, in
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus- their own interests, it may he advisable to
tralia) [12:30]: I think this is one of have only one electorate. I hold, however,
the questions which we should take a that it is a state matter, and I am wholly
little time to consider before we arrive at in accord with Sir John Forrest when he
a conclusion, It is a remarkable fact, says it will be far better to leave it to the
from which I, like the Premier of New states to say whether we shall have one or
South Wales, cannot get away, that no less three electorates. I know the unwieldiness
than five colonies are unanimous in claim- of large constituencies. I know it is impos-
ing this right. So far as I am individually sible for a man, even if he has leisure, to
concerned—although I was once imbued travel over the length and breadth of one
with the same ideas as those I have heard of these colonies to expound his views;
expressed by numbers who profess to walk and I know that, under any rigid system
in the van of democracy-I can view this which you may endeavour to impose on a
movement now as a thoroughly tory one candidate, you must still allow him a cer-
a conservative movement of the most tain amount of money wherewith to con-
rigid nature. I remember, in connection test an electorate. Under the system of
with the franchise of the little colony which one colony one electorate, you will still
I representbecause in this Convention place a certain power in the hands of men
South Australian is always alluded to as a in possession of capital. If a division is
small colony—the time when we returned called for, I shall be found voting for the
to the upper chamber members elected by amendments which have been passed by
the whole colony as one constituency. It the legislatures of the various colonies
was the boast of most of the electioneering interested.
agents of those days that so long as they
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
had the command of money they could [12:34]: As the bill stands at present, it
always elect a man, no matter whom he is provided that the senators shall be
might be, as a member of the upper house. chosen by the people of the state as one
As soon as we saw the evil of that system electorate. That is rigid. There is no
we altered it, and South Australia is now power in a state parliament to alter it;
divided into four districts on the basis of there is no power in the federal parliament
population. I must certainly say that to alter it. I think that rigidity should
under that system the whole of the people at all events be got rid of. Then we have
382
Australice Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
case.
to say:
to consider, as has been said more than instance, at all events, that proper means
once, that the five colonies, by their legis- will be adopted for the counterbalancing
latures, hare condemned the bill in this of the larger populations in the principal
respect; and when we also reflect that centres, and getting for country interests
these parliaments represent-as I believe their due proportion of influence in the
they dom-a very strong body of public senate. Tor this reason I am strongly of
opinion behind them, we must consider opinion that the suggestion of the Right
what would be the effect of such a provi- Hon. Sir John Forrest is one which recon-
sion upon the people when they come to ciles a great many differences. If we adopt
vote. It seems to me that, with one ex- his suggestion, and provide that the parlia-
ception, the amendment suggested by the ment of a state may make provisions for
Victorian Assembly pretty well meets the these elections, but that paramount to
The exception to which I refer has that the federal parliament may make
occurred to me in consequence of what I provision, we get away from the rigidity
think was a very admirable point made by of the constitution which, if it is retained,
the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest to-day. no matter how faulty the constitution may
The Victorian suggestion is that until the be found in the future, will prevent us
federal parliament otherwise provides the from altering it without an expensive and
electoral divisions of the several states for roundabout process of amendment. There-
the purpose of returning senators shall be fore I shall support the amendment as it
determined from time to time by the par- stands with a view to adopting the sug-
liaments of the several states. It goes on gestion of the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
I do not think that the amendment of the
each division returning one member to the senate hon. member, Mr. McMillan, goes far
I think that is wrong, for the reason given enough. So far as I perceive he proposes
by the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest. If that there shall be one electorate in each
it is desired, as I presume it is, that upon colony, unless the federal parliament de-
the election of half the senators every three termines otherwise. That gives the state
years the whole of the people shall have parliaments no voice whatever in determin-
the right to express their views, that desire ing this matter even in the first instance.
will not be effected by having only half of Mr. MCMILLAN : That is the intention !
the electors pronouncing upon the election
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12:38]:
of the senators to be returned. Speaking
I think it would be inadvisable to strike
for myself, I should have no fear about
out the words “one electorate.”
making the whole colony one electorate;
but I recognise that very strong arguments
The CHAIRMAN : The amendment is to
insert the words “and until parliament
have been advanced by those who consider
that under such an arrangement large
otherwise determines.”
centres of population might override less
Mr. GLYNN: I think the hon. mem-
densely populated districts. Whether that ber is willing to strike out the words sin
contention is absolutely right in the end,
one electorate." The Victorian amend-
the argument is a powerful one, and weight ment makes provision for the division of
must be given to it. But if we provide the states into six electorates, but in clause
that the colonies shall be divided into three 29 we have provided that the first election
divisions until it is otherwise provided shall be on the one electorate system.
by the parliaments of the states or by the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No, not neces-
federal parliament, we secure, in the first sarily!
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonicealth of
383
[13 Sept., 1897.1
Australico Bill.
Mr. GLYNN: We must look at pos- with regard to the amendments carried by
sibilities. The election is to take place the various legislatures, amendments which
within six months of the coming into force are, no doubt, fully entitled to our best
of the constitution, and one of the most consideration, I hope we shall not accept
difficult and contentious things that a par- that suggested by the hon. member, Mr.
liament could have to deal with is the McMillan. As I understand it, if we ac-
division of a country for the purposes of an cepted it we should transfer to the federal
election. We do not want to have the first parliament the right to interfere in local
six months prior to the election of this par-
and states elections. It would be very un-
liament taken up with a hot fight in regard desirable from the states point of view, be-
to what provisions shall be made for elec- cause it'would be a power which, I think,
toral boundaries.
would very possibly give reason for such
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The parliaments differences between the senate and the
will agree !
house of representatives as might have
Mr. GLYNN: I think there is an exceed- most deplorable results. We do not want
ingly small chance of that. The regulation to increase the number of causes of disagree-
of the electoral districts is one of the most ment between the two houses, and the
contentious things that can come before more we avoid difficulties of this sort the
Parliament. As an additional reason for better. I hope that the Right Hon. Sir
agreeing to the amendment of the hon. John Forrest will give full consideration to
member, Mr. McMillan, I would point out what has fallen from the hon. and learned
that although the Victorian legislature member, Mr. Barton, as to the effect of
has provided what shall take place until his amendment in regard to weakening
the federal parliament makes some other the states, and in providing the enemy of
arrangement, the legislatures of Tasmania, the smaller states with an argument for
South Australia, Western Australia, and, withholding power from them.
I think, of New South Wales, propose to Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:44]:
strike out the words "in one electorate, The dificulty on this point seems to me to
but make no provision for the first election be as to whether we are to leave a loop-
under the constitution. That leaves it to hole through the medium of the states par-
the states parliament to make provision. liaments or through the medium of the
But I say you ought not to leave to the federal parliament. If we are to leave
state parliaments the exceedingly difficult a loophole, there are three courses open
task of deciding what shall be the divisions to us. One, which is strongly advocated
of the electorates.
by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
An Hon. MEMBER : They will know O'Connor, is that we should irrevocably
that if they do not make provision they fix it in the constitution that each state
will not be represented!
shall elect representatives as one electorate.
Mr. GLYNN: It may take ten or twelve I would like to point out, however, that if
months to decide contending claims in re- we are to leave any loophole at all, it
gard to boundaries of electorates. should be in the direction of leaving it to
speaking of the experience of South Aus- the state parliaments to determine the
tralia, and I think this matter is rather mode under which the senators are to be
the result of an oversight than of deliber- elected. A great deal too much weight
ate intention.
seems to have been given to the argument
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON that each state as a whole should be repre-
(Tasmania) [12:42] : Whatever we may sented. It is true that that is so, but that
I am
do
384 Commonwealth of (13 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
taken away.
i
principle is not in any way infringed by people to enable the people to form their
the suggestions which have been made. The opinion as to the candidate they ought to
point is, how are you to ascertain what per- select with the best information which is
sons should represent the states as states ? available, and which is obtainable at first
That appears to me not to be a matter hand from the candidates who offer them-
for the federal parliament at all. Each selves. Now, it is impossible to accom-
state if it is to send these persons as plish that by having the states as one elec-
ambassadors or representatives should set- torate. I have no particular objection to
tle for itself how it will choose them. having the states as one electorate, except
Establish one electorate in the constitution that I foresee a great difficulty in enabling
in the first instance, and you will have the the people in the remote parts of a large
senators coming from the different states colony to form an opinion on the merits
holding in the eyes of the people the posi- of individuals who otherwise would be de-
tion of representing each state as a cor- pendent upon what might be their general
porate body. That position cannot be reputation. There may be men who would
The choice will be by the
make excellent senators who are compara-
people by direct popular vote; but in such tively unknown in the more qutlying dis-
divisions as shall be ascertained to be most tricts, and it appears to me that, on the
convenient both for the candidates and for whole, if you are to give effect to the prin-
the people, and especially for the people, ciple that you are to provide a means by
and as the parliament of the state may which the people may select the best men,
determine. Now, the difficulty, it is true, you will accomplish that in the most effec-
is one which affects both candidates and
tual way by dividing your colonies into
people, but I should have thought myself districts. I see this difficulty in the way
that, upon the principle underlying all our of accomplishing it, that if you introduce
representative government, the main ques- that principle into the constitution, you
tion was, how we can best give the people will also have to provide in the constitu-
the means of determining upon their par- tion for electoral districts, or to leave them"
ticular choice. Now, I can see great diffi- to the federal parliament. If you leave
culty in the way of enabling all the people them, as suggested, to the local parliament,
to determine upon their particular choice you might just as well leave the whole
with the larger colonies as one constitu- question to the local parliament that is,
ency. It was a difficulty which was felt to determine whether they will have one
at the time of our election to this Conven- electorate or several electorates. I shall
tion, and it is a difficulty which may be myself vote for the amendment, with a
increased as the people spread more and view of leaving the subdivision, if subdivi.
inore over these large extents of territory. sion into separate electorates be thought
If you are to give the people the choice advisable, to the state parliaments; but if
of representatives for any particular pur- that amendment fails, I shall vote for the
pose the great object is to accompany it amendment, as the next best thing, of my
by providing them with the best available hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, to leare the
means of forming an opinion and of select- question to the federal parliament, which,
ing the best men. Now, what we are ac- as circumstances in the future may require,
customed to under the British Constitution can determine whether or not the system
—and all our constitutions are modelled of one electorate shall continue.
upon that constitution-is the bringing Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) : I
of the candidates face to face with the should like first to know what effect the
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
385
[13 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
5
amendment of which notice has been given case of the Legislative Council of South
will have upon our dealing with other por- Australia you had the whole colony as one
tions of the clause ?
electorate, and it was found that under
The CHAIRMAN : The amendment is to that condition of things certain well-known
insert the words, "and until parliament gentlemen obtained seats in the Legisla-
otherwise determines.” That will not pre- tive Council, and that it was utterly im-
vent any other amendment being put. possible to oust them from those positions
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria): If to make way for more able, younger, and
those words stand, words will be added rising men who were not so well known to
giving the states powers subject to the the whole colony.
paramount authority of the federal par- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do not
liament.
think there was any special grievance !
The CHAIRMAN : It will be competent to Mr. LYNE: I happen to know that a
insert any words which are not inconsis- large number of those who held seats in
tent with the clause.
the South Australian Legislative Council
Mr. LYNE: I understand that if this held those seats for many years, and we
amendment be carried any words can be have been told repeatedly that it was be-
inserted, leaving the matter to the state cause the younger men were not so well
parliaments!
known to the entire colony that they ex-
The CHAIRMAN : If the amendment be perienced a difficulty in getting votes.
not carried I shall put the amendment, The Hon. Sir. J. W. DOWNER: I think
striking out the words " in one electorate." it was a question of the expense to mem-
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [12.51]: bers rather than of the convenience of
I wish in a few words to direct the atten- elector's !
tion of hon. members to the fact that it is Mr. LYNE: We have the statement of
all very well to talk of one electorate as the leader of the Convention that when
being conducive to giving power to the the colony is one electorate there is not so
people as an entity of the state ; but I much expense incidental to a candidature
would ask the hon. member, Sir John as when the colony is divided into districts.
Downer, whether in his own colony of Mr. BARTON: That is my recent ex-
South Australia it has not been found that perience !
the whole colony as one electorate for mem- Mr. LYNE : Because the hon. gentle-
bers of the Legislative Council was a mis- man was in the fortunate position of being
take-whether the system was not found well known. I will put to the Convention
to work badly, and whether it is not a fact the case of several of the candidates in this
that the parliament altered that provision colony. I do not wish to make any in-
in the constitution, and that at the present vidious distinctions, but I will take the
time South Australia is cut up, if not into cases of Mr. Bruce Smith, and of Mr.
single electorates, certainly into a number Ashton. I will refer especially to the case
of electorates for the return of members to of Mr. Ashton. I undertake to say that
the Legislative Council?
had it not been for the fact of a number
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Quite so; of the candidates being better known he
but the cases are not analogous !
would have been returned to this Conven-
Mr. LYNE: I should like to know tion, and would have done good work here.
why they are not analogous? In the one The Hon. E. BARTON : He travelled a
case you have the Legislative Council, and good bit more than
good bit more than did most of the candi-
n this case you have the senate. In the dates!
2
386
Australico Bill.
Commonu:ealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Or if
Mr. LYNE: But he had the misfortune place on the selection of gentlemen to
of not being so well known as is the hon. frame a constitution to be afterwards re-
gentleman and others who were elected. ferred to the electors: The electors did
Mr. WALKER : He did not believe in not take a strong view on any party ques-
equal representation !
tion in returning those gentlemen. I think
Mr. LYNE: I announced my opposi: I am correct in saying that you would
tion to equal representation whenever I not find such a state of things to prevail
had the opportunity to do so, and I was
in the election of members to the sen-
fortunate enough to be returned. But I ate. You would find a state of things
was calling attention to what had taken absolutely different. We will suppose, for
place in South Australia, and I wish before the sake of argument, that in the federal
resuming my seat to put another phase of parliament the fiscal question—a uniform
the question before hon. members, and it customs tariff—is the first matter to be
is this: Take, for example, the colony of dealt with.; and that the leader of the
New South Wales at the present time, Government in New South Wales and
where there is a strong feeling upon one myself go up for election to the Senate.
particular question—the fiscal question. Will there not be a 6 ticket” attached to
Suppose there happened to be in this my right hon. friend, the Premier, and
colony 10,000 electors in a centre of popu- will there not be a 6 ticket" attached to
lation either on the side of protection or myself; and if there happen to be a few
of free-trade. Under the provisions of this more free-traders than protectionists in
bill, with the whole.colony as one elector- the colony, I shall be rejected as well as
ate, there might not be one protectionist all the others on the same ticket.
returned, or, on the other hand, one free- it should turn out that we have a small
trader. Now, is it desired that the senate majority, my right hon. friend and his
should be composed of those who do not " ticket” will be rejected and only pro-
represent the minority at all ?
tectionists elected. That is the position
Mr. MCMILLAN: Does the hon. member you will be in if you allow each state to
think that only six candidates would go remain as one constituency. Without wish-
up?
ing to detain hon. members, I desire to say
Mr. LYNE: I think that perhaps sixty that I am opposed to leaving the question
would go up. But when there is a "ticket” indefinite, and I think the amendment
-a free-trade ticket, a protection ticket, of my hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, would
or any other ticket--the result is that you leave it indefinite. I should like to see it
get. six men returned on the one "ticket," fixed in the bill that there should be one
representing the one view, and the minor-
representative of each division in each
ity are disfranchised altogether.
state, and I should like to leave it to the
The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon. gentle. federal parliament to frame the necessary .
man said he did not think it would be machinery to divide the various elector-
that way the other day!
ates ; or, if we do not do that, we should
Mr. LYNE: The question I refer to leave it to the state parliaments to do it.
was not before the electors, and the hon. But, it being a federal matter hereafter, I
and learned gentleman altogether mis- think it would be preferable to leave it to
states the result of the election which took the state parliaments to devise the ma-
place the other day. It cannot be com- chinery on the basis of one representative
pared with the future elections for the for each electorate in each state. I shall
senate. The election the other day took therefore vote against the proposal of the
.
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
387
[13. SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bili.
hon. member; but I hope that afterwards Mr. GLYNN: It can be struck out. If
some hon. member will submit a proposal you put the words in as suggested by the
which will meet more nearly the views I hon. member, Mr. McMillan—" and until
hold.
parliament otherwise determines”after the
[The Chairman left the chair at 1 o'clock. The
word "states"-you can test the gram-
Committee resumed at 2. o'clock.]
matical construction of the clause by try-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South. ing it disjunctively. For instance, joining
Australia) [2]: You, Sir. Richard Baker,
the end of the clause with the first part of
said, before the adjournment, and very it, "The senate shall be directly chosen by
properly, that, if these words were added,
the people of the states, and the senators
it would be competent. for an hon, mem-
shall be chosen as one electorate." That
ber to move any other amendment; but I
is what the effect of the grammatical con-
should like to point out that the addition
struction would be.
of these words will take away much of the
The Right. Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : It is
meaning of the amendments proposed by
a matter for the Drafting Committee !
the parliaments of New South Wales, West-
Mr: GLYNN: Where is the necessity
ern Australia, and South Australia. The
for sending this matter to the Drafting
intention of those amendments is that this
Committee? It can be decided at once. I
matter of the election of the senate. by one
believe that where clearly a grammatical
district, or by several districts, should be
error is being made in putting an amend-
left to the state parliaments; but the ad-
ment in a particular way, the better plan
dition of these words will frustrate that
is to correct it at once, and there can be no
intention, and will give the state parlia- doubt that: the sense of the amendment
ments a very limited amount of liberty in
would be achieved by putting the words
this respect. Therefore, those who wish
"until parliament otherwise determines ”.
to give effect to the amendments I have
after the word “as.”
named, will be only able to effect their object
Mr. McMILLAN: Will the hon. member
by voting, in the first instance, against the
make himself responsible for the grammar?
addition of these words, and then in favour
Mr. GLYNN: I will, if the hon. mem-
of inserting their amendments; for, if these
ber will adopt: my suggestion.
words be added as proposed, the states
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
will have but a brief autonomy.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [2-1]; Of drafting which I think we might very
(South Australia) [24]: This is a matter
I think that, according to grammatical
well leave to the Drafting Committee.
construction, the meaning of the amend-
There may be something in the suggestion.
ment proposed by the hon. member, Mr.
of my hon. colleague. .
McMillan, will be that the senators will
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South. Aus-
be chosen as one electorate—not that the
tralia) [2:5]: I hope that the Committee
people, as one electorate, will choose the
senate: Grammatically, it is incorrect ;. in the bill. It is interesting, I think, to.
will decide to keep the clause as it stands
therefore I would suggest to the hon. mem-
see how the clause found its way as it is.
ber that the words should be put in after
In the first place, we were led very much.
the word " as" in the second line of the
sub-clause. Then it will read as follows:
by the American precedent, which leaves
no doubt about the representation of the
The senators shall be directly chosen by the
states as, until parliament otherwise determines,
state.entity: The election of the represen-
one electorate,
tatives of each state by the governing body
The CHAIRMAN: The word 66 and” is in. of that state ensured the representation of
388 Conmonu:ealth of (13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
the state entity as such ; and when the very excellent results. I urge that we
bill of 1891 was framed the same idea was should not forget the purpose for which
taken up-the state entity was to be repre- the senate is to be called into existence.
sented in the senate through the election If it is to be simply a body representing
of senators by the parliament of each state; the people in the various electorates, with-
so that then, as in the case of America, out reference to the states at all, we do not
each senator would be able to say that he want it. I would be quite prepared to
represented such and such a state as a whole. give a vote with those who contend that
Now we in Adelaide followed the same path one house is quite enough, unless we are
by providing that still the state entity shall going to set up a senate representative of
be recognised by the election, by the elec- states as states, and it seems to me that the
tors of each state in one electorate, of the only way we can secure the representation
senators of that state.
What is now pro-
of states as such is to make each state one
posed is an entire reversal of the course we whole electorate.
have hitherto followed--an entire change Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) (2:8): This
of policy and practice—and I earnestly question, like most of the others we have
hope that we shall adhere to the course discussed, is one which, it seems to me, ve
we have hitherto followed, and shall de- must approach from two points of view.
termine that the senators for each state We must consider, first, what is absolutely
shall represent, not only a portion of the best in our judgment to make, supposing
state, but the whole of it. Reference has it can be adopted ; we must consider,
been made to some past experience in secondly, what is most likely to be accepted
South Australia, and I desire to point out by the people, and if ultimately what in
that what is now proposed in this bill is our judgment is the best provision is
much more nearly like the present prac- less likely to be accepted, and another
tice in South Australia than it is like the provision, which, while not being the best,
old—now disused-practice in South Aus- is not very objectionable, will probably be
tralia. What is proposed here is that each accepted, it seems to me that we are bound
state shall be a district, and that each to adopt that which will probably be
district shall, in one electorate, return its accepted.
accepted. On this question I am in the
own representative to the senate. The awkward position of considering to be the
present plan in South Australia is that better proposal that which I think is less
the colony is divided into four districts, likely to be accepted by the people. My
each of which returns an equal number of view is now, and has been all along, that
members to the Legislative Council. The the best way to elect a senate in order to
old plan--that the whole colony should be secure a house worthy to be a house of
one electoral district, and should return revision would be to select it by the states
members as one electoral district-would as one constituency. But the discussion
only be parallelled by our providing now upon the question in my own colony and
that the whole of the states shall be put to- in New South Wales appears to have indi-
gether and form one electorate. Such a pro- cated that the people prefer the election
posal would not be made, or would obtain of the senate by districts. Now, whilst I
no support if made. We are not proposing consider that that is the least effective
to follow that old plan which broke down and the worse of the two proposals, I do
in South Australia, but are proposing to not consider it is so objectionable as to
follow the present system of election in justify me in insisting upon a condition
South Australia which now works with which I believe to be un popular, though
[The Hon. F. 7. Holder.
Commonwealth of
389
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
in my judginent the better; and having nate the country districts, where facilities
these two aspects in view, it scems to me for recording the votes are not so great.
now that it would be better to adopt the I do not agree with that myself; but I be-
proposal to elect the senate by six separate lieve that a very large number of electors
districts.
are afraid of that possibility, and if we go
An Hon. MEMBER: Three !
to those electors to ask them to adopt å
Mr. TREN WITH : Six or three-at bill with a principle in it of which they
any rate by separate districts. A point are afraid, we are giving them a strong
has been presented by the right hon. mem- incentive to vote against the bill. I am
ber, Sir John Forrest- a point which seems so anxious for federation ; I believe feder-
to me to have great weight. That is, that ation to be so desirable, that, personally, I
as the senate is to be elected half at a time
am willing to waive a conviction of my
after the first election, if we have six own upon a point which does not seem to
single electorates we shall never be able to be essential. There are soine points in
appeal in a senatorial election to more than connection with this question so important
half the electors. Therefore, it seems de- that I would say,
“Better no federation
sirable, in view of the desire of the people, than federation under such conditions."
to have districts, that there should be three There are some other questions of a com-
double seat electorates rather than six paratively minor character. This, in my
single seat electorates.
opinion, is one of them, and whilst I con-
An Hon. MEMBER: They will be single sider the adoption of districts for the elec-
seats after the first election !
tion of the senate will be less useful ulti-
Mr. TRENWITH: Yes; but they will mately than the election of the senators
·be over the whole colony instead of over by one electorate, as I believe it to be more
half the colony, which, as an indication of likely of acceptance I have resolved to
public feeling, is altogether inadequate I vote for it.
am afraid. But at any rate the indication Mr. HIGGINS : Does the hon. member
of public feeling will be better in districts
think that the question of one electorate
than by appealing to one-half, or three out of
will cause the rejection of the bill ?
six electorates. I should not have spoken
Mr. TREN WITH : I think that, when-
on the question were it not for
my
altered
ever we present the bill, there will be a
opinion upon the point. At the election
great many points in it that will be more
for seats in the Convention, at the late
or less objectionable to some persons; and
sitting of the Convention, and in our own
the more objectionable points there are in
Parliament in Victoria, I urged the adop- it, the less prospect will there be of its
tion of the principle of election by the
being adopted ; and, if we put in it one
whole state as one constituency. I still
provision that we feel is objectionable to
think that that is the better course to pur-
a large number of persons
sue, but I have evidence enough to in-
An Hon. MEMBER: Why assume that?
duce me to doubt very seriously whether a
large section of the Victorian people are
Mr. TRENWITH : Well, I am afraid
in favour of that course.
of it.
It has been
urged vigorously and with considerable The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : l'he
reason on its side, although not sufficient
hon. member should not be afraid of too
to my mind, that if we have one electorate many things!
for the election of senators--the towns- Mr. TRENWITH : I quite agree with
the large centres of population will domi- my hon. friend. It is not my character-
390
Australia Bill.
Commo
[13 SEPT. 1897.]
10:rwealth of
Teller,
istic to be afraid ; but I am afraid in the
AYES.
interests of the cause, of things that per-
Abbott, Sir Joseph Kingston, C. C.
Barton, E.
Leake, G.
sonally I should care nothing at all about.
Berry, Sir G.
Lewis, N. E.
In our House of Assembly, at any rate, Brunker, J. N. Lyne, W. J.
those who profess to represent the country Carruthers, J. H. Moore, W.
districts - and in our colony, as indeed,
Douglas, A.
Peacock, A. J.
Glynn, P. M.
Quick, Dr. J.
I suppose, in all the colonies, the majority Gordon, J. H. Reid, G. H.
of the people live in what are called Hackett, J. W. Solomon, V. L.
country districts in the Victorian Parlia Henning, A. H. Symon, J. H.
ment the persons who profess to represent
Henry, J.
Trenwith, IV. A.
Higgins, H. B. Turner, Sir G.
the country districts declare that they Holder, F. W. Walker, J. T.
themselves and the people whom they re- Isaacs, I. A.
present fear the domination of their in- James, W. H.
McMillan, V.
Noes.
terests by the interests of those in the
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Grant, C. H.
cities. I do not think there is any justi-
Briggs, H.
Hassell, A. Y.
fication for that; but, if it exists, we have Brown, J. N.
Howe, J. H.
to consider whether the prospect of jeopar- Clarke, M. J. Lee-Steere, Sir J. C.
Cockburn, Dr. J, A.
dising the bill for this principle is war-
O'Connor, R. E.
Crowder, F. T. Venn, H. W.
ranted by the importance of the principle. Dobson, H.
Wise, B. R.
Personally, I do not think it is. I do not Forrest, Sir J.
Zeal, Sir WiA..
think that the election of the senate by Fraser, S.
Teller,
districts will make it so much inferior, or
Fysh, Sir P. O. Downer, Sir J. IV.
will be so much less beneficial than elect-
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
ing it by one constituency as to justify
Question—That the words "as one elec-
us in putting in the bill a provision that
torate” stand part of the clause-proposed.
Mr. LYNE: How will the clause read
may startle, that may frighten, a large
number of electors from voting for the
now that the amendment has been made ?
bill. I felt it due to myself and due to
The CHAIRMAN: It will read as fol-
the attitude that I propose to take, that I
lows :--"The senators shall be directly
should say these few words. I may say
chosen by the people of the state and until
that if, in every other respect, the bill com-
the parliament otherwise determines, as
mends itself to my judgment, I shall feel it
one electorate."
my duty to endeavour to induce the people
Mr. LYNE: Is that the parliament of
the federation ?
to adopt the bill, whichever of these two
provisions is adopted. I shall feel that the
The CHAIRMAN : Yes, the federal parlia-
ment!
better thing is done in the interests of
securing a good constitution if the bill is
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) (2.26]:
carried in its present form; but I shall
I certainly voted as I did under the im-
think that the better thing is done, having pression that the final decision was to be
left to the states and not to the federal
in view the ready passage of the bill by the
popular rote if the course which I suggest parliament
. I am afraid that others voted
is adopted.
in the same way. I certainly understood
that it was to leave the elections to the
Question-That the words “and until states. I understand the amendnient now
the parliament otherwise determines” be
is to strike out the words " as one elec-
inserted-put. The Committee divided :
torate," and that after that is dealt with
Ayes, 29; noes, 19; majority, 10.. other amendments can be moved.
[Mr. Trenwith.
Commonwealth of
391
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
Question–That the words 65
as one elec-
governor of the senate may cause writs to be
torate,” stand part of the clause-put. The
issued by such persons, in such form and ad-
dressed to such returning officers as he thinks fit.
Committee divided :
Ayes, 29; noes, 18; majority, 11.
The object undoubtedly is, as far as I
AYES.
can discover, to keep the election of the
Abbott, Sir Joseph Higgins, H. B.
senate entirely in the hands of the states,
Berry, Sir G.
Holder, F. W.
and to leave the election of the house of
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Kingston, C. C.
representatives entirely in the hands of
Brown, N. J.
Lcake, G.
Brunker, J. N. Lewis, N. E.
the officials of the federal parliament. That
Clarke, M. J.
McMillan, W.
means that there will be two separate sets
Dobson, A.
Moore, W.
of elections, two separate sets of returning
Douglas, A.
O'Connor, R. E.
officers, with a double expense to the
Downer, Sir J. W. Quick, Dr. J.
Fysh, Sir P. O. Solomon, V. L.
federation; the times may be different, the
Glynn, P. M.
Symon, J. H.
places of election may be different, all the
Gordon, J. H.
Walker, J. T.
arrangements made be different; and no
Grant, C. H.
Wise, B. R.
doubt they will, if left in the hands of
Henning, A. H.
Teller,
Henry, J.
Barton, E.
different persons. Why the federation
Nors.
should be saddled for the mere sake of an
Briggs, H.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
idea, with all this terrible double expendi-
Carruthers, J. H. Lyne, W.J.
ture, is more than we can understand. It
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Reid, G. H.
seems to me that, for the mere sake of an
Crowder, F. T. Trenwith, W. A.
Forrest, Sir J.
Turner, Sir G.
idea, it would be a terrible argument against
Fraser, s.
Venn, H. W.
federation that this double expense should
Hackett, J. H. Zeal, Sir W. A.
occur every time there is to be an election.
Hassell, A. Y.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The same expense
Howe, J. H.
Teller,
Isaacs, I. A.
Peacock, A. J.
must be incurred one way or the other!
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: No; if the
Paragraph 2, as amended, agreed to.
governor-general issues the writs for the
election of the house of representatives and
Clause 9, paragraph 3. The senators shall be the writs for the election of the senate, it
chosen for a term of six years, and the names of
the senators chosen by each state shall be certi-
is a mere matter of adding a few names
fied by the governor to the governor-general.
to the voting papers.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assen-
The Hon. E. BARTON : The argument is
bly of Victoria:
that that would be so if the election of the
Omit all the words after the words
house of representatives and of the senate
years.
were held at the same time!
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes ; unless
[2:32]: The Legislative Assembly of Vic-
a dissolution throws the thing out of gear;
toria suggests the omission of the words:
I am drawing attention to what will happen,
And the names of the senators chosen by each
state shall be certified by the governor to the
in the first instance, if this suggestion is not
governor-general.
carried out. The governor-general willissue
That must be read in conjunction with
the writs for the election of the house of re-
clause 12, which the Legislative Assembly presentatives, and appoint his own return-
of Victoria also suggests should be struck ing officers, who will make all arrange-
out, and which reads as follows:
ments for the polling all through the coun-
For the purpose of holding elections of mem-
try. The central government will fix the
bers to represent any state in the senate the times and hold their elections if there is
six
392
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
no such thing as a senate to be elected. office for six years, although half of them
The governor of each state will issue his
may go out every three years. There is to be
writs, appoint his own returning officers, an election every three years, but the mem-
and fix his own polling booths, times, and bers of the senate are to hold their office
places, so that there will be two sets of up to the time specified to the day. Now
elections going on with a double expense. we know well, as a matter of common occur-
It seems to me it is an unfair expenditure rence, that, where there has been nothing
to impose on the states. They have to to cause a dissolution of the lower cham-
hold all the elections.
ber, before the effluxion of time, the case
The Hon. E. BARTON : It will not saddle is extremely rare, nevertheless, in which the
the federation with any expense !
members hold their seats until that time
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It will saddle has actually arrived. In this colony the
the people of the federation with a double practice is to dissolve one, two, or three
expense; for they will have to pay one months before the time expires. Even in
way or the other. It seems to me, unless that case it would be probable that there
hon. members are wedded very strongly to would be a coincidence in point of time.
the idea that there is some virtue in the Whilst the senate is not dissoluble, except
governor certifying to the governor-general by three, yearly periods, and the house of
that the senate is elected, we ought not representatives is dissoluble, we know that
to lose the substance for the sake of the in the majority of cases the house of re-
shadow. Therefore, I support the sugges- presentatives meets with some question
tion made by the Legislative Assembly of which causes its dissolution irrespective of
Victoria.
the question of effluxion of time. Therefore,
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South instead of there being coincidence between
Wales) [2-38]: I do not by any means these times, the immense probability is
wish to have a long debate on minor points. that, unless some curious accident happens,
I am not quite satisfied by the explanation these elections will be at different times.
of my hon. and learned friend that there If they be at different times, whether the
is going to be any great inconvenience or federation conducts both or one, and the
expense caused by this provision. If the state conducts the other, the total expense
elections for the senate and for the house will be the same, and it will have to be in-
of representatives are held at the same curred. Therefore, I do not think we shall
time, as they will be on the very first occa- gain anything. Of course something fur-
sion, but, if the bill stands as it is, very ther may be pointed out to cause one to
likely will not be at any other time, what alter that opinion. The clause stands in
will be the result? The expense will have this position : that it is more in accord-
to be incurred except in the first instance, ance with the separation of functions
in which case there might be some saving. between the two houses, and the admission
The expense in all the remaining cases will that the one is a proportional representa-
have to be incurred, because the elections tive chamber, disregarding state limits,
will be held at different times.
while the other regards state limits, that
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No!
separate authorities should take charge of
The Hon. E. BARTON: The members the elections. I admit there is not much
of the senate are to hold their office for six in the point one way or the other. I do
years, and one-half of the senators will go not see any reason for change. If I could
out every three years, if the bill stands as see that any expense would be saved I
it is. Every member of the senate will hold might waver in my opinion.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
393
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON laws in the several states for the time
(South Australia) [2:42]: I am inclined being relating to certain matters shall be
to think the balance of convenience is in applicable to the first election. I am in-
favour of giving the federal authority com- clined to support the suggestion made by
plete control in connection with the matter.' the Victorian legislature.
It seems to me highly objectionable that
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [2:46]:
in any matter affecting federal affairs the
I shall support the amendment, because I
carrying out of the necessary provisions hope that, after federation, the office of
for securing the representation of the states
state governor will become unnecessary.
should be left to the local executive, which Therefore, I shall vote against the insertion
might be altogether hostile to federation.
of any words in the constitution which by
I am inclined to think—and I put it for implication assume the continuance of that
the consideration of Mr. Barton—that we
office.
ought to make federal authority, within
the scope of federal jurisdiction, certainly Australia) (2.47]: I hope the amendment
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
to the extent of constituting the federal
will not be made. In a number of inci-
parliament, supreme in itself, and not in
dental amendments there is frequently a
any degree dependent upon the will of the
local executive, which, if given any right big principle involved, and there is one
in this. Whom do the senators repre-
of interference, might exercise a powerful
sent? They represent the states. Who
influence for ill on federal affairs.
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania)
is to certify that they are elected ? The
states.
[2:44]: It appears to me that the words
proposed to be omitted would properly
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : There
find a place in an electoral act rather than
will be a returning officer ; why should he
in a constitution act. When the federal
not certify
parliament is constituted, and frames its The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Who
provisions for carrying out the elections should more properly certify as to the per-
for the senate, and also for the house of sons elected than the governor of a state.
representatives, no doubt some provision It is preserving the essence of the state
for the certifying of the names of the unity to keep the provision as it is at
senate will be made. It seems to me un- present. With regard to the question of
desirable to hamper the constitution with expense, with our internal parliaments,
minor provisions for certifying the names would we ever agree to make a law com-
of the senators. That had better be left
That had better be left pelling the elections of the Legislative
to another measure. The elections, I take Council and Legislative Assembly to be
it, will be carried out under the authority coincident in time? If we did, it would
of the federal parliament and the federal bring about most serious inconvenience to
executive.
one or the other, and the result would be
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The first that one body would be insufficiently
election cannot be. There will be no representative whilst the other would be
federal parliament then!
fully representative. I think the argument
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS : There will be of Mr. Barton is unanswerable. To make
a federal executive to carry it out, and the amendment which my hon. friend pro-
someone to issue the writs and make pro- poses with a view of saving expense might
visions. We have provided later on that produce an inconvenience which will be
until Parliament otherwise provides the greater than the expense.
394
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I cannot see The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They should
any inconvenience !
have all the power in substance, but the
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: First mere machinery should be in the hands of
of all, my hon. friend only proposes to
the federal authorities !
strike out a reference to the certifying of
Mr. MCMILLAN : That is what I wanted
.the election of the senate. What is the to understand!
object? Whom does my hon. friend want Amendment negatived ; paragraph 3
to certify who are the senators ? Surely agreed to.
if the senators are to represent the state, Clause 9, paragraph 4 : The parliament shall
the head of the state is the proper person have power, from time to time, to increase or
diminish the number of senators for each state,
to say who has been elected.
but so that the equal representation of the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : As long as the several states shall be maintained and that no
people elect, and the right men are elected, state shall have less than six senators.
what matter who certifies ?
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If
sembly of Victoria':
That after the word “but? the following
there is nothing in it, why waste time?
words be inserted :—"except in the case of new
An Hon. MEMBER: It does not matter states which after the establishment of the com-
who issues the writ!
monwealth are admitted thereto or established
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It
thereby upon other terms and conditions.
does not.
Question-That the words proposed to
Some certificates must be
be inserted be so inserted-proposed.
handed in to certify that the members of
The Hon. E. BARTON : I might mention
the senate are properly elected, and who
should do that but the governor ?
that an amendment which I suggested a
day or two ago provides for this case. The
An Hon. MEMBER: Would not the re-
definition of the word " original,” which I
turning-officer do?
propose to insert in an earlier clause will
Mr. HIGGINS : The returning-officer to
provide for it in a shorter form. If the
the governor-general !
hon, and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, will
An Hon. MEMBER: Why not leave it to be satisfied with that amendment I will
the governor?
propose it at a later stage.
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Why The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Whether now
waste time?
or hereafter I shall oppose any alteration
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Yes, affecting the principle of the equal repre-
I would ask, why waste time?
sentation of states in the senate.
Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales) The CHAIRMAN : There will be some
[2:49]: I want to know whether this is difficulty about following the course sug-
to come in again? If we destroy clause 12, gested by the leader of the Convention,
does the hon. member intend to insert any- inasmuch as it has been decided that
thing in clause 41, or to propose a new amendments suggested by the various legis-
clause ?
latures shall be put to the Convention, and
An HON. MEMBER: Follow the same of course if an amendment is negatived the
practice!
principle with which ...it deals cannot be
Mr. McMILLAN: The principle then afterwards affirmed except upon the re-
is that underlying this proposal the parlia- "committal of the bill.
ment or the state as a state should have The Hon. E. BARTON : What I have sug-
nothing to do with the modus operandi of gested is, that after we have gone through
the elections.
the bill in Committee, a day or two should
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
395
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
be allowed to the Drafting Committee to to the amendment. The substance of the
make amendments which are purely draft- amendment was inserted in the bill in
ing amendments, to more clearly express Adelaide on the motion of the Right Hon.
the intention of the Committee, and that Sir George Turner, and I would point out
the bill should be recommitted for the to the representatives of South Australia
formal consideration of these amendments. that so far from its being an obstacle to
I have not the smallest objection to the federation it is actually an advantage. If
amendment now before us being carried, we do not have such a provision in the
so long as it is understood that this is a bill, what will be the result? The result
mere matter of agreement.
will be that when any state or colony de-
The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps it would be the sires to enter the commonwealth, not hav-
best way to discuss the principle under- ing done so on its establishment, it will
lying the amendment now.
either have to accept equal representation,
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus- or not come into the commonwealth. It
tralia) [2.54]: I will state in half a dozen might be perfectly willing to come in on
words why I oppose the amendment. To lesser terms, and the commonwealth might
put a concrete case, if Queensland does not be willing to admit it on lesser terms; but
come into the federation at once it will be it might be thought altogether unfair that
left open to the federal parliament to make a state which had chosen to remain out-
ita condition of Queensland coming in that side the commonwealth until the whole
she shall not have equal representation in problem had been solved by the federa-
the senate. Therefore, in agreeing to the tion should necessarily come in on equal
amendment, we are cutting at what I con- terms. I would point out again to these
ceive to be an essential principle of federa- hon. gentlemen that there is nothing to
tion, namely, the equal representation of prevent the commonwealth from conceding
the states. If I spoke for a week, I could equal representation to the states. If
not put my views upon this subject more Queensland, or any subdivision of Queens-
clearly, and I think I have stated the pro- land, desired to come into the common-
position in terms which convey my objec- wealth at some future date, it might urge
tion to it.
its claim to equal representation, and the
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South commonwealth might say, “Rather than
Australia) [2:55]: Clause 114; as it was · keep you out, we will give you equal re-
passed in Adelaide, allows a principle to presentation.” The power to do that is
creep in which upsets views that I hold retained, even if we allow the amendment.
upon this subject, namely, that in every The amendment does what hon, members
case the states should have equal repre- opposite have so often urged us to do. It
sentation in the senate. I think that the trusts the federal parliament, and allows
best way would be to negative the amend- it to make the bargain as close as it and
ment, and to modify clause 114 afterwards. the state entering the federation choose to
We should leave it to the commonwealth make it.
to say whether or not it would admit a The Hon. H. DOBSON : Ought not the
state, whether or not a state is of sufficient bargain to apply to financial terms, and
importance to be admitted; but, once a not to constitutional terms?
state is admitted, it should have its proper The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It ought to
representation in the senate.
apply to any terms. A month, or six
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) months, or a year after the establishment,
[2.56]: I hope the Convention will agree Queensland might say, "We are perfectly
396
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
willing to come in. It is true that, by have just spoken will see that there is
reason of circumstances not wholly under nothing which will prevent the common-
the control of our people, nor of our Par- wealth from giving equal representation
liament, we did not come in at the begin- or a full measure of proportional repre-
ning; but we are desirous of having equal sentation, if afterwards that be deemed
representation.” If they were then told : just. But if, on the other hand, the com-
" You have not contributed to the finan- monwealth deenied that it was not just to
cial calls of the commonwealth," they concede that, why should it not be trusted
might reply, “We are willing to give you to do that which it considers just ?
compensation for that.”
Mr. GLYNN : Why reopen the principle
The Hon. H. DOBSON: But not by tak- upon the admission of a new state?
ing away the constitutional privileges The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There is such
which the original states have ?
a thing as driving a principle to death, and
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Nothing I think my hon. friends are casting away
would be taken away from the federated a great deal of substance for a very in-
states. Every privilege—equal represen- substantial shadow if they do not adhere
tation in the senate, full proportional re- to this amendment, which is merely putting
presentation in the house of representa- into drafting form the principle affirmed in
tives—will be conserved to the original the 114th clause—that we should gire that
states.
which is proper, that which is calculated
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. member would to make this bill much more acceptable to
not sell a vital principle for cash ? That the colonies who desire to join the federa-
is what it amounts to !
tion in the first instance, and, as I said
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Suppose that before, and now take leave to repeat, that
Queensland sees that there is a risk here- which would be of great assistance in fur-
after of not getting all she would get if she thering Australian unity in a complete
came in now, will not that be an incentive form.
to her to put forward her best efforts to join The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
us? I think, sir, that so far from being a drag tralia) [3.3]: I am surprised to find the
on federation, it will be one of the most leader of the Convention—if we may judge
important elements in securing, at the his meaning from his cheers--actually sup-
earliest possible moment, a complete fed- porting a provision which cuts at the root
eration of Australia. And when we con- of the principle which, time after time,
sider the risk that the colonies who first both in the Convention of 1891 and in this
form the federation will run, and are will- Convention, he has advocated with so much
ing to run, in order to create Australian impressiveness and strength. If the hon. .
unity, we ought not to put an inducement gentleman has impressed this Convention
in the hands of fearsome colonies to stand and the colonies generally with the neces.
aloof until the problem has been solved, sity of any one of the principles contained
until risk has been converted into cer- in this bill it has been the necessity for the
tainty, until they can come in and have all principle of equal representation in the
the advantages without having had any of senate.
the disadvantages. I do earnestly hope that An. Hon. MEMBER: Among existing
the proposal of the Right Hon. Sir George states !
Turner, which was carried without, I think, The Hon. J.H. GORDON: Among all
any dissent at all in Adelaide, will be ad- states. The hon. gentleman has never,
hered to, and that my hon. friends who and I think I have heard all the speeches
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
397
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
which he has delivered on the subject, tage compared with those colonies who
qualified his adhesion to this principle at happen to be lucky enough to first come
all. . It is an integral principle in the ad- into the contract, who really are the first
vocacy of which we have so often admired robbers.
and followed the hon. gentleman. I am The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is too
surprised, if the hon. gentleman's meaning thin!
is to be gathered from his cheers, that he The Hon. J. H. GORDON: That is
should now depart from the principle; but the proposition I am endeavouring to put
I am more surprised, if possible, to find before the Convention.
such an eminent legal authority as the hon. The Hon. E, BARTON : That would be
member, Mr. Isaacs, actually commending all very well for a syndicate ; but it has
this proposition to the Convention-on nothing to do with this Convention!
what ground ?—upon the ground that we The Hon. J. H. GORDON: If we
are-if I might put it in mining parlance receive the states, we should receive them
-first robbers, that any state comingin and as brethren, with all the rights of brethren.
not being on the bed-rock—to revert once It is argued that the colonies which do not
more to mining parlance—must adopt our come in at the outset may take all the ad-
terms. In other words, that we are to vantage whereas we take the risk, and that,
punish a state such as Queensland, which, therefore, if they choose to hang back, we
owing to a combination of circumstances, should exact from them terms favourable
over which possibly her people may have to ourselves and not favourable to them.
had no control
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: That does not
The Hon. J. H. HOIVE: We may give follow at all!
them all we take ourselves !
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: It is the
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : We may; basic argument, and the words in which it
but I maintain that we should leave the has been put before us have been these :
door open to any state to come in on an “We are taking the risk and trouble. If
equality with ourselves after the federation the other states like to hang back, why
has been inititated.
should we allow them to come in upon the
Mr. SOLOMON : Within some reasonable same terms with ourselves ?"
time !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why should
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : It is open they force us to allow them to come in ?
to the federal parliament to receive them; The Hon. J. H, GORDON: They can-
and if it receives them, it should receive not do so.
The hon. and learned member
then as full brothers, with all the privileges does himself an injustice when he imagines
and rights of brothers.
that any state can force the federal autho-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : We want to rity to allow it to come in. Does he seri-
admit them at the beginning !
ously mean this convention to accept the
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : It would proposition that any state which is not re-
be a travesty to call what the hon, member, presented in this Convention can force the
Mr. Isaacs, puts forward a principle. It is federation to take it in ? Does the hon.
no principle. He puts forward the argu- and learned member say that?
ment that because at the commencement An Hon. MEMBER: He does not mean it!
of this contract, Queensland, owing to cir- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I say that the
cumstances over which her people may federal authority must be prepared to ad-
have had no control, is not able to be re- mit them on these terms, or leave them
presented here, she shall be at a disadvan- out altogether!
398. Commonwealth of [13. SËPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : On the The hon. member is quite mistaken in
terms of a full and free partnership, on supposing that this amendment or that
the conditions we ourselves insist: upon, clause 114 as it stands will in any way
on the terms for which we contend. The necessitate Queensland being put in a posi-
hon. and learned member says that be- tion of unequal representation.
cause the other colonies are not represented
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: But it may !
here now, because we take some risk which The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: It gives
they do not take; we should penalise them, to the commonwealth the power to arrange
and exact of them certain termas because the terms upon which Queensland or any
we were the original federators. The hon. other colony may come in. I am sure the
and learned member does not say definitely hon. gentleman will not say that we are
that we should do so, but he says that we to leave practical questions out of con-
should put ourselves in the position of sideration altogether, that we are not to
being able to do so. Nothing is further look at the question from a practical point
from my intentions than to do any injus- of view. The colony of Queensland is the
tice to the hon. and learned member's only colony to which this amendment can
arguments, but, as far as I can gather, he apply. And it is in this position : An
wishes to put us in the position of penal- agitation has been going on there, as we
ising any new state which may come in all know, for a division of the colony into
after the federation, and I say that that is three colonies. If that agitation for separ-
a principle which might animate a private ation ever had any point or meaning, surely
syndicate or a number of co-partners seek- it would be achieved if the success of the
ing some personal gain, endeavouring to agitation were to secure three times the
line their own pockets, but which cer- representation in the federation to which
tainly should not animate this Convention Queensland would otherwise be entitled.
if it desires to bring about a federation. I The only practical side of this question-
am astonished that the hon. and learned the only case to which it can apply-
member, Mr. Barton, of all men, should is the case of Queensland; and if we
be the man to lead us from those paths of allowed this basis of equal representa-
principle into which he has so eloquently. tion to remain as a right to any colony
and so frequently guided us.
that came in, it would be a premium to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New Queensland to divide herself before enter-
South Wales)[3.8]: I do not know whether ing the federation. You may ride a prin-
or not to take the hon. member who has ciple too far, and it would be carrying this
just resumed his seat seriously; but if he principle of equal representation to the
is to be taken seriously he utterly misap- point of fatuity if the commonwealth were
prehends the nature of the amendment. to place itself in such a position as to be
Nothing new is done by it. It merely at the mercy of any colony that chose to
carries out a principle already agreed to stand outside for any reason I do not care
after full discussion in clause 114. It is what-and then when the commonwealth
simply an amendment for the purpose of was formed to come in and take advantage
carrying out more fully the meaning of. of it. The hon. and learned member, Mr.
that clause. I do not say for one moment Isaacs, has pointed out that a colony might
that that is an answer to any argument stand by and watch the struggles and
which the hon. member may put forward.. the failures, and when sucoess has been
But, as a matter of fact, the clause merely achieved, come in and take advantage of it.
carries out a decision already arrived at.. The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Why not?
[The Hon. J. H. G'ordon.
Connonwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
399
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If the the hon, and learned member, that it would
terms to be allowed are only to be terms. be possible for Queensland to divide herself
of money compensation, I say that it does into three and claim equal representation
not meet the case in any way. You have with three other states, cannot be main-
to regard the matter from a practical point tained under clause 114 read in conjunction
of view. From a practical point of view, with clause 5. I admit at once that my
it would be nothing less than folly to leave hon, and learned friend is an able luminary
this matter in such a position that Queens- of the law, therefore I do not wish to cross
land or any other colony, as a matter of swords with him in this respect; but I
right, could come into the federation upon must say it does not seem to me that under
whatever terms she might think fita On this bill it would be possible for Queens-
the other hand, supposing that Queensland land or any other state to divide itself into
does not choose to divide, but comes in as. three and claim équal representation.
one of the other states, would any one sup- There are no words in the bill, so far as
pose for a moment that she would be I have read it, which could give that
accorded any other position than that of right to any existing state. My objec-
equal representation ? This amendment tion to these words is that they are un-
and clause 114 simply enable us to deal necessary.
The desire of the states that
with the position as it is. If Queensland do federate, I should say, would certainly
will enter the federation as she is; she will. not be in the direction of repelling the
undoubtedly have a right to be accorded other states, but rather that of gathering
equal representation. If she wishes to them into the fold. I think we may de-
impose any other terms, or to alter her pend upon it that there will be no desire
condition before she enters the federation, on the part of any states that federate to do
then we have a right to impose such terms other than everything in their power to
as we think fit.
draw into the federation those states which
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus- have not been able from various causes to
tralia) [3.12]: This matter does not require come in at the beginning. It seems to me
any debate. If we carry this amendment, that to do anything which would drive
we make the commonwealth of Australia. away these states—which would show that
subservient to a state.
if they come in they are to make terms,
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: they are to commence fresh negotiations
(Western Australia) [3:13]: I feel myself --would be to cause an irritation which
in some difficulty in dealing with this ques- would do a good deal to alienate these
tion after the statement made by my hon. states from the federation rather than
and learned friend, Mr. O'Connor ; but I what we all I am sure desire, namely, that
must add that. I do not read clause 5, taken every means should be taken to attract
together with clause 114, in the way he into the federation as soon as possible.
does. It seems to me that there is a very those states that are not able to come in at
great distinction made in both these clauses the beginning. There would seem to be a
between existing states and new states: desire—and I think that the publication
The existing states are clearly defined - of this debate will go some way in that.
they are the colonies as they exist at the direction ; there would seem to be a desire
present time and clause 114 refers to on the part of the people of the larger
those states which do not join at the pre- states of Australia—those that are most
sent time. That means those states that likely to federate in the first instance, for
exist now. I take it that the argument of without Victoria and New South Wales
400
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
I take it there can be no federation of terms, will it not be an incentive to new
Australia—to try to coerce and force into states to ask for better termas? They may
the federation those states which are not not be content to come in on the terms
ready or for various reasons are unable to upon which the original states federated.
join the federation at the present time. It will give an incentive to colonies desir-
They say to those states: “If you do not ing to gain admission into the common-
come in now, look out; you will not get wealth to say, “The Commonwealth Bill
in on such good terms again. In fact, gives us an opportunity to come in on
you will never get into the happy family other terms. We desire that the terms shall
which we shall have established.” I think be more favourable than those on which
that that is altogether foreign to our ideas the original states federated.” It seems
of federation—what we have always spoken to me that we shall encourage the idea in
about-our great desire that Australia those colonies that will not enter into the
should be one federated dominion or com- federation now that, if they stand out long
monwealth.
enough, they will be able to obtain better
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: This will make terms for admission than the original states
Queensland an absolute suppliant for obtained. It cuts both ways. It seems
terms!
to me that it will be better to establish a
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : commonwealth which is not easily altered
I take it that if it is a good thing to feder- --better to form it on such a basis that all
ate at the present time, it will always be a the existing colonies at present will know,
good thing I cannot understand what if they do not come in now, exactly the
circumstance could possibly arise by which terms upon which they can come in. The
the larger states, having federated, would terms should be no betterand no worse than
desire to impose on the smaller or any those of the original states. They should
other states joining them afterwards any know exactly the terms upon which they
worse terms than the terms that are offered can join the commonwealth. I cannot see
in the bill. I cannot imagine that that à particle of good in the proposal of
should be the case; and, if that is so, why my hon. and learned friend, Mr. Isaacs,
put in this provision ? Unless it is of but I can see a great deal of harm; and
some importance-unless you mean it to looking at it from both points of view it
have a certain significance—why put it in, seems to me a proposal which is altogether
unless it is with the desire to coerce? I unnecessary.
say at once that any idea of the larger The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
states trying to coerce the smaller will fall South Wales) [3.22]: I should like to
very far away from the mark, and you will point out to the hon, and learned member,
find that you will raise up a feeling of dis- Mr. Isaacs, that the very important ques-
trust, and a feeling altogether opposed to tion which he raises now is raised at a
what we desire—that is, to federate. I very inconvenient time, and that it will
may say that this proposal also cuts both come up on clause 114. The present clause
ways, and would have a damaging effect 9 is one which should not be encumbered
in every way, both from the position taken by any reference to circumstances which
up by the hon. and learned member, Mr. may arise on the admission of what are
Isaacs, and those who follow him, and also called new states.
from the position of those who are op- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I do not know
posing him. If it goes forth that new whether the hon. and learned member was
states are to be admitted only on fresh in the Chamber at the time; but the ques-
[7'he Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth-of
401
(13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion whether this was an opportune time land. Surely the hon. member can see
to raise the point was discussed, and it that. The bill speaks of existing colonies.
was suggested by the Chairman that this I
say that if an existing colony-I will
was the proper time.
not mention any colony-is delayed through
The Piglit Hon. G. H. REID : I sug- some unfortunate state of things, but is
gest, even to the Chair, that this clause is ready to come in when it is properly
one which points to the general laws governed, and has an opportunity of ex-
which are equally applicable to the whole pressing its own view, no one would wish
of the states. Clause 114 deals in a very to call that a new state upon which special
few words with everything that is neces- terms should be imposed. It would be
sary with reference to the admission of called an existing colony which has come
those states, because it proposes :
into the federation as we did, only a little
The parliament may from time to time admit later in point of time. But I quite agree
to the commonwealth any existing colonies.
with any power taken to stipulate as to any
I will stop there. Surely no hon. mem- territory not forming one of the existing
ber of this Convention would wish to
colonies, and the bill itself does so. 'Even
make terms:with any of the existing colo- if the amendment is passed I do not object
nies? Suppose, for instance, through the to it. I only object to it as raising this
misfortune of the people of a colony in.not general discussion now,
general discussion now, because I would
being properly governed or managed at a advise hon. members who think with me,
particular time, it is left out of the original that there is a proper time and place to put
federation, but loses no time whatever,
that in, not to waste time on that point
when it gets a constitutional opportunity about the existing colonies at present, be-
to do so, to be.so managed that it.comes
cause it is quite right that new states
into the federation. Would any one wish should be dealt with in the way suggested
to put that state into a different category by the amendment. As the bill stands at
from that of the colonies already federated? present, existing colonies will not be new
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The common-
states. They are saved from that defini-
wealth would not do it in that case !
tion by clause 114, which says :
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Then if
The parliament may from time to time admit
there is no idea of the commonwealth doing
to the commonwealth any of the existing colonies.
it in that case, there is not the slightest
Then it goes on to say:
necessity to cast a slur upon those colonies,
And may from time to time establish new
which infallibly would be the case if in
states, and may upon such admission or establish-
case of a colony, I will not say Queens-
ment make and impose such terms and condi-
land, but any others, Tasmania or Western tions including the extent of representation.
Australia
Mr. WALKER : Fiji !
Well, we can make it clear when the time
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I hope comes that if any existing colony applies
the hon. member will forget his financial for admission there will be no terms about
refinements. If we come down to terri- extent of representation; but if any terri-
tories I can quite understand that the tories which are not existing colonies, such
whole question of terms must be opened. as Queensland, divided into three, come in
An Hon. MEMBER: Suppose Queensland then, they would come under the head of
were divided into three colonies, how then? new states.
I think we can safely pass
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That these words here, reserving the discussion
would not be the existing colony of Queens- which is going on at present for the other
2 F
402 Commonu'ealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
clauses, because we must remember that An Hon. MEMBER : It goes further than
clause 5, the interpretation clause, has been that!
postponed, and that clause 114 will give us Mr. HIGGINS: I feel that I ought not
a full opportunity of preventing anything to take up time; but there is one point of
being done affecting existing colonies. substance which the hon. member, Mr.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [3.27]: I O'Connor, referred to—a point which I
think a good deal of time in discussion think is most material as applicable to the
would have been saved if the original pro- question of the admission of new states. He
posal of the hon. and learned member, Mr. alluded, amid the cheers of the Convention,
Barton, to amend the wording of clause 5 to the possibility of Queensland dividing
had been adopted. He wanted to distin- into three parts. If the proposal of the
guish between original states and new hon. member, Mr. Gordon, be accepted, it
states, but some objection was raised, and, will mean a grievous interference with the
in consequence, hon. members have become normal development and subdivision of
confused as to the present proposal. The this Australian continent.
present proposal is confined to new states. Mr. SYMON : No, because the common-
Looking at clause 114, there is a distinct wealth would not admit Queensland !
difference, as the Premier of New South Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. member in-
Wales says, between new states and exist- terjects before I conclude my sentence. I
ing colonies, and the amendment of the Vic- was going to add because the position is
torian Assembly has nothing to do with that Queensland, for instance, wants to
existing colonies. All that the Attorney- divide into three colonies.
General of Victoria wants is that in the case An HON. MEMBER : No, she does not !
of new states this clause making equal Mr. HIGGINS: Perhaps I should
representation essential shall not apply. qualify my statement by saying that there
It is a mere question under clause 9 as to is a petition before this Convention from
whether or not we shall adopt Mr. Gordon's central Queensland asking to be treated
suggestion, and make equal representation as a separate colony or state, although she
an absolute essential for all new states, no has only 56,000 people. There is also a
matter how small. This proposal of the well-known standing request from North
Victorian Assembly will not apply to the Queensland to be treated as a separate
existing colony of Queensland at all. We colony. I hope I will not be interrupted
can deal with that when we come to clause again on mere matters of detail. There is
114.
an agitation in Queensland for subdivision
An Hon. MEMBER : You may deal with into three colonies. What is the effect?
it when you reach clause 5!
Suppose the commonwealth has no option,
Mr. HIGGINS: Yes. The hon. and but must admit any new state on the basis
learned member, Mr. Barton, wished to of six senators to each state, the members
deal with clause 5 ; but at the instance of in the federal parliament for New South
several members it was postponed. I want Wales, Victoria, and the other colonies
to deal now with clause 9 as it stands. will be bound to throw their full weight
The only effect of the Victorian Assembly's against the subdivision of Queensland into
alteration is as to new states. New states two or three states if they find it neces-
are not necessarily to have equal repre- - Sarily means six senators to each part of
sentation; but it does not affect Queens- Queensland.
land, because clause 114 says “the existing Mr. LYNE: Why should they not have
colonies” of Queensland, and so forth. six senators ?
[The Right Hon. G. II. Reid.
Commonwealth of
403
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon, member sees you had a huge number of states, and to
the injustice of equal representation as add six senators for each state where there
clearly as any one does. It would mean are only a few. An hon. member suggests
then that New South Wales not subdivided there is also the further consideration that
will have six senators as against eighteen at first the new states in America were
for Queensland.
only admitted as territories. I alluded to
Mr. LYNE: The same anomaly exists now this subject at the Adelaide Convention.
under the decision given at last sitting ! What I want to urge is this : whether we
Mr. HIGGINS: I will not go back on accept equal representation or not, still if
what we decided the other night. The we do accept it we shall not use it as a
point is this : Suppose equal representa- lever to maintain the division of Australia
tion be carried, the members in the federal into these huge aggregations of land.
parliament representing New South Wales Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [3:36] :
will be face to face with this position: The point of importance seems to me to
That if an application be made by Queens- be this: We are passing a constitution
land to be divided into three colonies for all the colonies that we hope will feder-
under the constitution, each of these three ate under it. We recognise that it will
colonies must have six senators. Then the
be extremely wrong to make conditions for
New South Wales members would feel some of the other colonies which had no
if we admit these three colonies, it will be voice in the matter. Hence it is that all
Queensland eighteen as against New South the colonies have been invited to this Con-
Wales six.
vention. If we place in this constitution
Mr. LYNE: But each of those colonies rigid conditions as to the introduction of
will have a larger population than Tas- further states, we shall entail upon the
mania !
commonwealth of the future conditions
Mr. HIGGINS: I will not enter into in the making of which it has had no
that. I think hon. members will agree voice.
with me that the whole weight of influence An Hon. MEMBER : They are not rigid!
of the Victorian and New South Wales Mr. TRENWITH : Everything that is
members, and even the South Australian put into this constitution is necessarily
members of the federal parliament will be rigid. The proposal of the Attorney-
thrown against the subdivision of Queens- General of Victoria is not to place any
land. For present purposes, I am assum- colony in an undignified position, but to
ing that the subdivision of Queensland is give the commonwealth which is to spring
a desirable thing in the interests of Queens- out of our efforts the power to say at the
land. There is no doubt that in the course time it happens what conditions it will
of time the subdivision of some of these impose in admitting other states.
large colonies will be desirable ; but I do The Hon. E. BARTON : So that it may
not want to have a subdivision which is a preserve the interests of the common-
normal and proper one interfered with by wealth !
any rigid clause in this constitution.
Mr. TRENWITH: Yes; and so that
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. mernber's argu- the colonies which come in subsequently
ment would have stopped the addition of may have a voice in securing, if there are
thirty-one states in America to the
reasons for it, different terms to those
original thirteen!
originally adopted. The Premier of New
Mr. HIGGINS: It was very different South Wales supposed the case of a colony,
to add two senators to each state where which from some cause or another was just
404 Conimonwealth of (13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
now unable to express its opinion with that flexibility which is necessary, by allow-
regard to federation, but which immedi- ing the parliament of the future to do what
ately after the adoption of this constitution will be best in the interests of the common-
by some of the colonies would be able wealth of the future.
to make its choice. He assumed that such Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [3.39]:
a colony would be placed in an undignified I would just add to the arguments which
position :if it could not come in on exactly were urged by the hon. member, Mr. Barton,
the same conditions as those colonies which
and others, that this addition that we made
joined at first. There is no warrant for to the 114th clause, and with which this
the assumption that the commonwealth amendment will read, seems to me to be a
formed under this bill would for a moment most exceptional one. So far from greater
think of dictating any such terms to any power on the admission of new states being
colony that sought to come in immediately given to those states, the very reverse has
afterwards under the conditions of this been done in the case of other constitutions.
bill, but we may suppose a case which is In the case of the Canadian Constitution it
equally probable : Suppose the case of a was provided that on the addition of those
colony that exercised an influence possibly colonies which were to stand out, their repre-
in a decision upon this Commonwealth Bill, sentation in the senate, when certain other
but still did not come in, and had no desire colonies came in, was to be diminished rather
to come.in.at the time that the colonies than increased. For instance, it was pro-
generally federated. That colony might.govided, in the case of Prince Edward Island,
on for a number of years without joining that when it came in subsequently the re-
the federation, during which time, we might presentation in the senate of that colony
reasonably assume, the circumstances both should be deducted from the maritime pro-
of that colony and of the commonwealth vinces; so that the numerical proportion
would have materially changed. If we in the senate of the new states would be
make this Commonwealth Bill as rigid as diminished as new colonies were admitted.
desired, we shall entail upon the people of New Brunswick's share of representation
the commonwealth in the future the neces- would come down, because the twenty-four
sity of going through all the cumbrous ma- representatives given to the three maritime
chinery of changing the constitution before provinces would have to be divided with
they could make conditions or arrange- New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.
ments different to those which are suit- There is no similar provision in the Cana-
able now, and which might not be suitable dian Constitution except to the extent I
at the time I contemplate; but if we adopt have mentioned. There is a provision in
the bon. member's amendment we sball another clause that terms may be arranged
make the Commonwealth Bill as perfect as on the admission of new colonies. But the
we can make it for the circumstances of our provision to which I have referred as re-
time. We shall leave sufficient flexibility gards the representation tells in the very
in it to enable the commonwealth parlia- opposite direction to that which is proposed
ment to make such conditions with the to be inserted in our constitution. The argu-
colonies which desire to.come in in future ment of the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, is
as are under their circumstances, desirable. completely answered in the case of America.
I strongly urge that upon hon. members. "His fears amount to this : If you allow the
We shall not.be-imposing any indignity or new states to enter on equal terms with
disability either on the commonwealth or the existing states, then the whole force
the province-we shall simply be providing of New South Wales and Victorią will be
[1/r. Trenwith.
Connomoealth of
405
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
thrown against the proposed subdivision of kind of amendment like this would be to
Queensland, because by allowing Queens- prevent the subdivision of those colonies
land to come in as three states instead of in the near future. It might be absolutely
one you will probably diminish the power necessary for some portions of Queensland,
of Victoria and New South Wales.
the northern territory of South Australia,
Mr. HIGGINS : There was no subdivision and the northern portion of Western Aus-
in America ; there is to be a subdivision tralia to be divided up into probational
here.!
territories, at any rate, in order that the
Mr. GLYNN: In America they started local government could be more effectively
with thirteen states, and they made a pro- managed. If we do not include in our
vision that new states should have equal constitution a provision to meet that em-
representation. The constitution practi- ergency, we should continue the large and
cally fixed in itself the terms on which new unwieldly character of these colonies, which
states were to be admitted that there was is one of the greatest drawbacks to the
to be equal representation.
cause of federation.
Mr. HIGGINS : The point is, that in the Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [3.45] :
United States the new states were in- I think it is to be regretted that this
creased in number by aggregation, and question has arisen at the present time. I
not by subdivision !
should have much preferred that we should
Mr. GLYNN: The principle is exactly have determined it on clause 114. But
the same.
It rested with Congress to say
now that it has been raised it must be
whether an addition should or should not settled. I am going to vote with the
be made. There was a very big fight made hon. and learned member, Mr. Isaacs,
about the admission of Texas. The fight perhaps for different reasons from those
was not as to the admission on certain which influence other hon. members. Every
terms as to the representation in the senate, one knows that I have been opposed to
but whether the admission should or should equal representation in the senate, as has
not take place. My hon. friend's argu-
been decided on. I think the action of
ments are perfectly answered by the case the hon, and learned member, and the
of America.
character of his amendments, will empha-
Mr. McMILLAN (New South Wales) sise the absurdity of what has been done. .
[3:43]: It seems to me that the public are I can understand giving power in the
likely to be rather muddled over this dis- bill to allow territories to enter the feder-
cussion. As far as I have understood the ation with unequal state rights, or equal
question, it is purely a matter of drafting. territorial rights of representation in the
It is a matter of inconsistency between senate ; but I cannot understand all these
this clause and clause 114, and it never gentlemen who voted for equal state rights,
wasintended that that inconsistency should trying to take those equal state rights
be remedied by passing any slight on away from any states which might here-
Queensland, or by intending for a moment, after come into the federation. Supposing
if Queensland should desire to come in, the southern portion of Queensland, con-
that she should not come in on the basis taining the larger proportion of her popu-
of equal representation. It was intended
It was intended lation, at some not very distant date, should
to meet the difficulty of the division or separate and desire to come into the feder-
reconstruction of some of these colonies ation, why should that portion of that state
which have large sparsely populated dis- with a population as large as, or larger
tricts. The effect of not introducing some than, that of Tasmania, with possibilities
406
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
ten times as great as hers, not come in on come in, if you are to have equal state
an equality? I point this out to show the rights, on perfect equality with the existing
absurdity of what has been done.
states. Weshould not put the existing states
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is which would form the federation, as the
not in order in characterising what the hon. member, Mr. Gordon, says, in the posi-
Committee has done as absurd.
tion of a syndicate wishing to be the first
Mr. LYNE: I may be permitted, sir, robbers, because that is really the logical
from my point of view, to refer to what I position which we will occupy in this matter
consider the absurdity of equal representa- --but we should place every state which
tion in the senate.
comesinto the federation with its population
The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member will and with its possibilities on an equality if
be quite in order in characterising any. you are going to have equal state rights at
thing which the Committee proposes to do all. I only rose to show why I am going to
as absurd; but after the Committee has vote for the proposal. It is to show the
arrived at a conclusion, he is not in order absurdity of what is proposed to be done
in characterising that as absurd, unless in contradistinction to what has already
he is in the position of seeking to rescind been done.
the resolution.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Mr. LYNE : Your decision, sir, would be Wales) (3-51]: I think the hon. member
perhaps somewhat different if it were given who has just spoken has fallen into the pit
under our standing orders. I wish to point which he dug for himself. There is no
out that what the Committee is proposing to absurdity about the passage of the amend-
do isan absurdity. Iam right in saying that ment, notwithstanding the decision which
I hope, sir. It is an absurdity in contra- has been come to about equal state rights.
distinction to what the Committee has The decision about equal state representa-
done. In the past the Committee may not tion in one house alone was come to as
have been guilty of an absurdity ; but if part of that process of compromise and
the Committee does what is now proposed negotiation which must take place in the
it will certainly be guilty of an absurdity. framing of any federation. If the hon.
I am going to vote for the amendment. It member would see that, then he would per-
will emphasise the absurd position we are haps be more consistent in thinking that
in in making this proposition. I can under- it would be impossible for five sets of
stand a proposal to allow the introduction people to come here with different and
into the federation of inferior states or conflicting views not compromising upon
territories, and it may be the grouping of any one of them, and yet be under the de-
them together, and to give each one of them lusion that they could agree upon some-
a similar representation in the senate, but thing. It is only by compromise that a
together not a larger representation than federation can be formed. The
very
form
any state, but I cannot see the logic of pro-
of a federal government is in its essence
posing to allow new states to come in, no compromise, and you have to compromise
matter whether they are at present ex- in a federal government between the ex-
isting states, or whether they may be treme federal idea which characterises what
a subdivision of existing states, on any may be called a confederation with equal
other principle than that which has been representation in the two houses—and in
determined. As I said there are certain one if there be only one and that which
portions of Queensland which, if it is sub- characterises the extreme in national mat-
divided, may come in, and which should ters of insistence on proportionate repre-
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
407
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
sentation in two houses, or one if there be the representation of three of the colo-
only one. If there be a bi-cameral legisla- nies as they stand at present—with repre-
ture, what has been decided amounts to this: sentation in the senate equal to New
that the just line of compronise is to give South Wales, Victoria, and South Aus-
proportional representation in one chamber tralia, or Western Australia, Tasmania,
and equal representation in another. Acom- and South Australia. It naturally occurs
promise is based not only upon fair lines that the alteration of conditions of that
between those two opposing systems of sort is a thing we may reasonably provide
government, but is based also on reason and for in the constitution. We are not deal-
justice. Mr. Lyne is mistaken if he thinks ing adversely with the question of equal
there is anything in this proposition which representation in the senate. We are sine-
conflicts with that principle. In the same ply providing for a case in which that
way that we are here to reason with each equal state representation, arising under
other, and to negotiate about the basis of such circumstances, would be applied un-
the constitution we are to form, as regards justly, and might possibly be applied with
those who at the opening enter the com- designed injustice. It is not a case of
monwealth, so we wish to take in this the larger states coercing the smaller, as
amendment a power for the commonwealth Sir John Forrest seemed to fear, but the
to enter into negotiations, and deal on fair case of the commonwealth taking means
terms with those who afterwards wish to to protect itself in the future. There is
come into the commonwealth, and the pro- no desire to injure any state, but to
cess is the same. But this difficulty arises: keep the matter of representation so in
This amendment is not proposed for the the hands of the commonwealth to which
purpose of taking away from any state its it will belong that the terms upon which
right to equal representation, even if it be a state will be represented cannot be so
a new state—being one of those we were dictated by that state that she may, by a
originally dealing with. Take Queensland, subdivision, grasp a representation in the
for instance. If Queensland proposed to commonwealth which will be three times
come into the constitution before it is what she would have under present condi-
actually framed, or if she proposed to come tions.
in as an undivided colony after the framing An Hon. MEMBER: No one argues that !
of the constitution, it is inconceivable that The Hon. E. BARTON: No one does ;
there would be any objection to her having but, unless we make a provision of that
the same senate representation; but the kind, the argument must prevail whether
case may arise of a colony like Queensland the hon. member likes it or not. The
dividing herself, perhaps, for the purpose Premier of New South Wales has argued
of securing greater representation in one that clause 9 must not be encumbered
house—it may not necessarily be for that with provisions as to new states. That
purpose but because of other political exi- would be very well if there were not
gencies. It could, however, be done either some qualification inserted in the clause.
for that purpose, or under the pressure of Necessarily, there would be some conflict
circumstances. What would follow ? That between this clause and clause 114. It has
one colony coming in, which, if she came been rightly said by Mr. McMillan that
in now would be entitled to the same this matter is, to a large extent, one of
representation in the senate as this or drafting. Still, there is imported into it
any other colony which is now a contract- a question of substance, because we are
ing party, would be able to come in with discussing the same question which arises
408
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
this act;
in clause 114. I put this broadly : that British Columbia, to admit those colonies
those who are in favour of clause 114 will or provinces, or any of them, into the
be in favour of the amendment, because it union-
is simply an effectuation of that clause. on such terms and conditions in each case as are.
Clause 114 itself may require modification;
in the addresses expressed and as the Queen may
because, whilst it deals with the admission
think fit to approve, subject to the provisions of
of any colonies which have not adopted
that is to say, taking the full power to
the constitution, and also with the estab-
lishment of new states, it, perhaps, does
make terms and conditions-
and the provisions of any: Order-in-Council on
not sufficiently express that it is intended
that behalf shall have effect as if they had been
to cover the case where a colony-now an
enacted by the Parliament of the United
existing colony-does not come into the Kingdom.
federation until afterwards, and has in the There is only one qualification imposed
meantime subdivided itself.
upon that, and it is this : It is not a quali-
Mr. MCMILLAN : It applies to both! fication in favour of the equal state re-
The Hon. E. BARTON: It may be presentation of the remaining colonies---
that clause 114 covers every one of those Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland-
cases ; but, in any case, the intention of but that each of them shall be entitled to a
the Convention, as disclosed at Adelaide, representation in the senate, of how many
if made clear, would be an amendment members ? Four. Quebec being entitled
largely in the direction of drafting. A to 24 ; Ontario to 24 ; and Nova Scotia
word was said by Mr. Glynn about the and New Brunswick between them to 24.
state of affairs in Canada. I would like to Either of the other colonies if they enter
put myself right about that. Section 22 are to be entitled to 4; but there is a:
of the British North America Act-tliat is provision in the case. of Prince Edward:
to say, applying to the four colonies which Island for a reduction in the number of
then entered, stated that there were to be senators for the two provinces of Canada
three divisions. The two Canadas-Upper --that is, the original provinces of Ontario
and Lower-were to be divided into. On- and Quebec—whose number in the Senate
tario and Quebec.
There were
to be
was to drop then from 12 to 10, so that.
twenty-four senators for Quebec, and they shall each. have 10, making 20 for
twenty-four for Ontario. That is to say, the two. But that division was still to
there was equal state representation in the have 24 members, because Prince Edward
Senate, notwithstanding the disparities in Island was to be counted a part of that
their population; but there were only division of the Dominion, and her 4 would
twenty-four provided for the third diri- be added to the 10 each of Upper and.
sion, which consisted of the maritime pro: Lower Canada, so that the number of 24
vinces. At that time, the only maritime for the division would be maintained. It
provinces which had joined the Dominion is clear from these provisions that what
were Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. was intended there was, first, that there
What provision was made afterwards ? should be a full right to negotiate with the
Under the head of "admission of other various provinces ; but that something
colonies," it was provided that it might must be conserved to Prince Edward Island
be lawful for the Queen-in-Council, on and Newfoundland, and that was that they
address from the Houses of Parliament should have, not equal representation, but
in Canada, and the legislatures of New- four representatives each in the senate.
found land, Prince Edward Island, and The proposed amendment, however, to-
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
40.9
[13. SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
gether with clause 114, does not make any prehension. We claim this as an absolute
such rigid or arbitrary distinction, because right, and as an invulnerable principle of
it is quite competent for the commonwealth federation.
to grant equal representation to Queens- An Hon. MEMBER: At any rate, it will
land, or to subdivide Queensland, or to answer the hon. member's purpose !
any other new state that may be carved
Mr. SYMON : Never mind my purpose.
out. It remains a question for the common- I want to deal with this matter as briefly
wealth. There is no destruction of the prin- as: I. can. I think that a great deal has
ciple of state right, and it is competent for been introduced into the discussion that
the commonwealth to apply that principle has no bearing whatever upon the prin-
to any newly admitted state. All that is ciple. Either we have been wasting our
provided for is that the commonwealth time altogether, or we have embodied in
shall have the right, before admitting any the constitution the principle of the equal
new state, to enter into: negotiations with representation of states in the senate.
it, and to decide with it upon the terms Thie Hon. S. FRASER: We have conceded
which may seem just. That is all that is that fully !
intended by the amendment and clause Mr. SYMON: I am not talking about
114. Having made this plain statement, the original concession. I am willing to
I hope there will be no objection to the accept it from my hon. friend, who is
acceptance of the amendment.
friendly to the less populous states in the
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [4.2]: I interests of federation, for the sake of
sincerely hope that the Committee will not
what I am going to say now. Whether it
accept the amendment. We have been is treated as a concession or as a right, it
drawn away a good deal from what really is here in the constitution; and the pro-
underlies it by a number of analogies and posed amendment is an entire abandon-
illustrations which have no application to ment of the principle. Of course the
it. During a couple of days last week.we amendment is a matter of substance; it is
fought out the great principle of equal not a mere matter of drafting. It antici-
representation in the senate. I know
pates the discussion we might otherwise
that some hon, members believe that that have upon clause 114; and I presume that
principle was agreed to as a concession if an amendment upon clause 114 were
to the smaller states. I do not regard suggested, you, Mr. Chairman, would rule
it as a concession, and I utterly dissent it out of order if it reopened this matter?
from any suggestion that we who repre- Treating the amendment as a matter of
sent the smaller states have accepted it substance, what does it amount to ? It
. in that spirit. We claimed it, and in- asks us to empower the federal parliament
sisted upon it as a right, and I was sorry to abrogate one of the fundamental prin-
to notice—and I take this opportunity of ciples of the constitution. The alternative is
correcting the impression—that the hon. to enable the federal parliament to do what
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, judging it can do now-refuse to admit a state.
from a report which I read in a Sunday The alternatives are :
The alternatives are : to introduce an
newspaper, seems to believe that the repre- amendment and entirely destroy the prin-
sentatives of the smaller and less popular ciple for which we have contended, and
states are now inclined to regard this as a which underlies any federal system of go-
concession and not as a right. I tell the vernment, or simply to give the federal
Convention, and I tell the hon. and learned parliament the power of refusing to admit
gentleman, that that is an entire misap- a particular state--a power it already
410
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
It is a
possesses under the constitution. Queens- is not ample, to provide for territories
land has been referred to as an illustra- being taken under the control of the com-
tion. Hon. members have been terrified monwealth, upon any system of represen-
by the bogy that Queensland may divide tation or no representation, as you please.
herself into three parts.
The Hon. S. FRASER : How about clause
An Hon. MEMBER : No!
114 ?
Mr. SYMON : Not intentionally, per- Mr. SYMON: We have not come to
haps; but as the result of some agitation. that yet; that is another source of mis-
Mr. McMILLAN: No. It is a question apprehension. The hon. and learned mem-
of what might happen after she came in; ber, Mr. Barton, has just said, and it has
not of what she might do before.
been said by others, that we are dealing
question of the future subdivision of these with this as a mere matter of drafting, be-
large territories !
cause it is necessary to bring clause 9 into
Mr. SYMON : Well, I will take it harmony with clause 114. I quite agree
either way. Take Queensland as an illus- with that, if you are going to leave clause
tration. I quite recognise that Queens- 114 as it stands. But I and other hon.
land, influenced by the agitation which is members do not intend to leave clause 114
proceeding, may subdivide into three ; but as it stands, if we can alter it. It was one
the remedy for that, if she seeks to enter of the provisions introduced into the bill
the federation as a three-fold state, is to at the close of our proceedings in Adelaide,
refuse to admit her.
when, owing to circumstances which from
An Hon. MEMBER: We do not want to one point of view might be considered as
do that!
fortunate, and from another point of view
Mr. SYMON : It is better to adopt that as unfortunate, we were not able to have
course than to play fast and loose with the that exhaustive consideration which other-
principle of the equal representation of the wise we should have bestowed upon it.
states you admit. What is the remedy? But we shall be playing fast and loose
The remedy is that suggested by the hon. with the principle of equal state represent-
member, Mr. McMillan, to make territories ation in the senate which was embodied in
of tracts of country not populous or wealthy the bill if we agree to the amendment. If
enough to be admitted as states, and to we admit any part of this great continent
deal with them on any footing you please.
into the commonwealth as a state, it must
But when you admit part of Australia have equal representation in the senate.
into the commonwealth as a state, you If it is not admitted as a state, if it is not
must give it all the rights of a state, and in a political condition to warrant its ad-
place it upon the same footing as the other mission as a state, let it be called a terri-
states.
tory ; but to hand over to the federal par-
Mr. McMILLAN : That is all that is liament the right of amending the consti-
meant !
tution in this essential particular is to
Mr. SYMON : Not at all; and it is be- abandon ererything we have been fighting
cause of this misapprehension that I have for.
ventured to rise, to clear away the con-
Mr. McMILLAN : Had we not better
fusion.
define what a state is, and what a territory
Mr. MCMILLAN: It is the understand- is?
ing of most hon. members !
Mr. SYMON: I should like some such
Mr. SYMON : The remedy is, that a definition to be embodied in the bill. What
elause should be introduced, if clause 115 I want hon. members to remember is that
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
411
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
this is not a matter of drafting. This is a the method of altering the constitution by
serious matter of principle. I like the sug- handing over the alteration of it in one
gestion, as I gather it, of the right hon, the particular and vital phase to the federal
Premier of New South Wales ; that if we parliament absolutely. We have the power
want to deal with this question exhaust- to prevent all the difficulties which have
ively we should postpone it until we come been pointed out by refusing to admit por-
to clause 114. But do not let us now, by a tions of the colonies as states, and by
division upon what some hon. members dealing with them as territories. I hope
think a mere question of drafting, decide that every care will be exercised in coming
what is an essential and vital point in the to a conclusion on the matter, having re-
constitution. While, on the one hand, we gard to the important and far-reaching
are inserting in the bill equal representa- consequences which may flow from the
tion for every state, we are taking it away clause,
with the other hand. It will be a ring- The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[4:13]:
streaked and spotted constitution. The It was my intention to vote for the amend-
question involved is one which we are ment of the hon. the Attorney-General for
here to vindicate; it is a principle we are Victoria; but I think, on further consider-
here to rest upon, and I, for one, am not ation, that it would be better to leave to
going to give it away. As to the mere Queensland the right to say “We will
illustration which has been taken from come in under the bill as it stands." There
Queensland in the matter, I do not sup- will then be no haggling over the condi-
pose the slightest difficulty will arise in tions. I think that it would be safer to
connection with that colony. Certainly
Certainly leave the bill as it is than to make this
Queensland will not divide herself into alteration. Queensland will then come in
three for the sake of getting increased on the bedrock, as it were, and there will
representation in the senate.
be no trouble, no doubt, and no haggling.
Mr. McMILLAN : Why does not the hon. If the proposed alteration were made,
member move the postponement of the Queensland might have, to some extent, to
clause?
approach the federal parliament cap in
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If the hon. hand, and the federal executive might have
member does that, we shall not be here to the power to coerce the colony, by exact-
deal with it!
ing better terms than she was willing to
Mr. SYMON: The reason why I think give. I shall, therefore, vote for the clause
it would be well to postpone the clause is as it stands.
that we should deal with it in connection Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania) [4.15] : I
with clause 114. There seems to be some am very glad to observe that the hon.
apprehension as to whether or not this is member who has just resumed his seat
a necessary amendment to make the clause and who interrupted the hon. member,
in harmony with clause 114. Buttheamend- Mr. Symon, with cries of "divide" and
ment is nothing of the kind. In the first " question," has thought fit to change his
place, it is an amendment of the gravest mind and give the Committee the benefit
substance. Secondly, we are reopening the of his opinion. It gives me some con-
whole question of equal representation in fidence in rising to say a word or two on
the senate, which some of us regard as a the subject. While I hold just as strongly
vital principle of this constitution; and as does my hon, friend, Mr. Symon, to the
thirdly, we are doing violence to what is great principle of equal representation, I
provided in another part of the bill, namely, wish to point out to him that I think he
412
Azistralia: Billi,
Conmonwealth of
3[1 SEPT., 1897.]
has made a mistake. The principle we That is a very different thing from any
affirmed on Friday. last was the right of question of finance. I should like also to
each existing state to equal representation say this, in reply to my hon. friend; Mr.
in the senate, and not the right of differ- Howe, who said that if we carried this
ent parts of each state to that. equal repre- amendment we should make the common-
sentation. I should like to call the atten. wealth of Australia subservient to a state.
tion of my bon. friend to this point: that: In my humble opinion, the effect of the
the reason why different parts of the pro- amendment will be exactly the reverse.
posed commonwealth obtained equal repre- Mr. LEAKE (Western Australia)[4.18]:
sentation in the senate was on account of It is my intention to vote against the
their being existing colonies exercising amendment, because I think it is proposed
rights of self-government. I repeat that in the wrong place; this question should
while I hold as strongly as does my hon. be dealt with when we are considering
friend the principle of equal state repre- clause 114, and not now.
sentation in the senate, I differ from him The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: If we retain the
altogether when he uses an argument to provision in clause 114, there must be some
the effect that if Queensland be.subdivided amendment of the kind here !
into three colonies each of such different Mr. LEAKE: But we do not like clause
colonies should be entitled to equal repre- 114, and I would point out the distinction
sentation at any time it might please them between the two clauses. This paragraph
to enter the federation.
of clause 9 affects only the senate, whereas
Mr. SYMON : I did not say that ! clause 114 affects both the house of repre-
Mr. CLARKE: That was the effect of sentatives and the senate.
Those of us
the hon, member's argument.
who, like my hon. friend, Mr. Symon, are
Mr. Symon : No; not unless they are in favour of the maintenance of state
admitted as states !
rights, wish to emphasise our position by
Mr. CLARKE: Their admission: as the retention of these words. If these
states should rest with the federal autho- words stand, then the senate is, from our
rities. I believe in giving the federal point of view, soundly established upon a
parliament power in reference to this mat-
proper foundation, and we shall not have
ter. I have not the slightest doubt that deprived the commonwealth of the advan-
if Queensland chooses to come in in: five tage—if it may be so termed—of placing
or ten years hence, the federal parlia- new states upon a different basis with
ment will let her come in with equal re. regard to their representation in the house
presentation. My hon, friend, Mr. Gordon, of representatives. We may abandon that
referred to the colonies who first join point; but we must have equal represen-
in the federation as first robbers, and he tation in the senate, and we say, further,
used some other mining phraseology with that we will not have the number of
which he seemed to be pretty familiar, senators for each state fixed at less than
Now, I should like to point out to him, six. If this amendment be carried, not
and to any other hon. member who only is unequal representation in the
agrees with him, that the question at issue senate assured for some states, but by it
is not a question of money at all. It is also the representation may be less than
not a question of the financial terms upon six. I think hon. members have bardly
which each state shall come in; it is a regarded the effect of the amendment from
question of the voice which any particular that point of view. We may give way, I
state shall have when it does come in; say again, on the question of representa-
[Mr. Clarke.
Conmonwealth of
413
[13 SoPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
tion in the house of representatives; or the promised, and which I believe hon. mem.
admission of new states may be put upon bers desire when we come to clause 114,
terms other than those of equal representa- 'because, as I said before, this paragraph
tion in the senate. We do not mind terms of clause 9 deals with the representation
being imposed, in fact new terms are con- in the senate alone, whereas clause 114
templated I understand. I do not go to the deals with both houses of the proposed
extent of assuming that the terms which federation.
will or may be imposed will be stringent,
"The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus-
They may of course be liberal, and I am
tralia) [4:23]: I am very much indebted
inclined to the conclusion that the common-
to my 'hon. friend, Mr. Clarke, for quot-
wealth in dealing with new states would
ing, I believe, .exactly the words that I
be liberal rather than stringent as to con- used. I am sure that the Attorney-Genė-
ditions. We who represent Western Aus- ral of Victoria understood my interjection
tralia have always been assured that owing perfectly—I was cheering nearly every-
to the peculiar circumstances of our colony thing he said. What I meant to say was
special terms must be or probably will be that if the Convention did not carry the
made for us, and I am inclined to think hon. and learned member's amendment we
that in those circumstances the terms would
should be making the commonwealth sub-
be liberal—that nothing would be done
servient to any particular state that wishes
which would be likely to keep us out of to stand out. A great deal has been said
the federation. I say, then, that if it is a about equal representation. My hon. and
question of terms, we are prepared perbaps, learned friend, Mr. Symon, is not a stronger
to be placed upon terms, but those terms
advocate of equal representation than I
must not be any less representation, or any am ; but I think that I am a stronger
less power in the senate, than paragraph 4 federalist than my hon, and learned friend
provides for
We will accept other terms is, for this reason : I see the great danger
-liberal or perhaps stringent-but we that will accrue if we do not accept the
must have equal representation as states amendment.
in the senate.
Mr. SYMON : What danger ?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why not join
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Because we
us at once ?
Mr. LEAKE: I am perfectly willing
shall be simply giving states a premium
to isolate themselves from the common-
to join you at once—I admit that; but we
must consider the views of other persons.
wealth until they see how it works.
I agree with the hon. and learned member,
Mr. SYMON : Not a bit of it!
Mr. Symon, who says that this is a vital The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I do not wish
question, and you are attempting to give to misinterpret the action of my hon.
the federal parliament power to amend the friend, Sir Jobn Forrest—he and I were
constitution in an indirect manner. I do boys together—into meaning that Western
not approve of it. We shall abandon one Australia does not wish to be part and
of the first principles of this federation if parcel of the commonwealth at the present
we agree to the amendment, and we shall time. Is not Queensland playing fast and
block the way of further discussion and of loose with the matter at the present time?
that liberal trust which we anticipate when Will Tasmania join us if we do not agree
we come to clause 114. If we pass the
to the amendment? I say no. She will
proposed amendment to this paragraph we stand aloof and see how the other colonies
shall find that we cannot do what we are get along. In fact, I think that there
414
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
will be no commonwealth at all, for I as well as existing states, to have equal
question if Victoria will consent to join representation, then they will overburden
in any commonwealth unless that amend- this constitution, and it will probably break
ment is carried. Consequently, I say down.
that if we do not carry the amendment The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
of the Legislative Assembly of Victoria Australia) [4.29]: A serious matter has
we are jeopardising the cause we have so been advanced, that if this amendment be
much at heart. I shall heartily support
I shall heartily support not carried the small states are likely to
the amendment.
stand out. I think it is quite the other way.
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [4.26]: I was I can see a great danger in this amend-
rather disappointed at hearing the tone ment being carried. It is very easy to
adopted by my learned friend, Mr. Symon, imagine a case in which a new state may
and I venture to say that the attitude be admitted with a larger population than,
which he has assumed, and also that of my say, Tasmania, and admitted on the terms
hon. friend, Mr. Gordon, is calculated to contemplated by the amendment, with less
embarrass the representatives of the large than the same amount of representation
states who have up to the present supported in the senate that Tasmania and the
the principle of equal representation. We original states have. I say that this state
have done our best in our colonies to of things would give rise to a perpetual
prepare the people for equal representa- ferment. You would have a large element
tion in its application to existing states. of the federation which had less represen-
To that extent we have gone as far as tation in the senate than the smaller
we possibly can—as far as we dare to go; element. It would be a continual sore
but it is now proposed to extend that point. The whole question of the repre-
principle of equal representation to the sentation of the small states would be
future states.
raised and their representation would be
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: We do not endangered. I say that to carry this
refuse to extend it!
amendment would be more likely to give
Dr. QUICK: The hon. and learned dissatisfaction to the small states, seeing
member, Mr. Symon, proposes to lay open that their representation would be placed
the extension of this principle absolutely, in jeopardy, and a great principle having
as a cast-iron principle, to future states by this means been set on one side.
which may be carved out of existing An Hon. MEMBER :
colonies.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I say there
Mr. SYMON : If you admit them as is no analogy between the case of Canada
states !
and the case of these colonies. Several of
Dr. QUICK : If he wishes to have such the federated provinces of Canada had
a principle as that added to the granting never known what autonomy was. They
of equal representation to the existing had never been in the position of these
states he will increase the. difliculties and colonies. In the case of Upper and Lower
burdens of those hon. members of the Canada the analogy is still more imperfect,
Convention who represent large colonies. because they had one legislature between
I do not believe that the hon. gentleman them. The conditions of Canada being so
wishes to do that. His attitude is no doubt utterly dissimilar from the conditions of
consistent; but I wish to point out to him, Australia, I hope we shall not have pre-
and to other hon. gentlemen, that if they cedents quoted from Canada, either in
make it obligatory for all future new states, speeches or by interjections.
[The Hon. J. H. Howe.
Commoriwealth of
415
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
It says :
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South so delighted to come to an agreement with
Australia) (4:31]: I intend to vote for the any hon. member of my own profession
amendment, but not on the speech of the even though on opposite grounds, that I
hon. member who introduced it, because I cheerfully welcome the amendment.
think his speech went far beyond what he Question—That, after the word “but,"
proposed. The amendment says, “Except the following words be inserted :-"ex-
in the case of new states, which, after the
cept in the case of new states which after
establishment of the commonwealth, are the establishment of the commonwealth
admitted thereto, or established thereby, are admitted thereto or established there-
upon other terms and conditions." The
by upon other terms and conditions"
hon. member introduces this to explain put. The Committee divided :
clause 114. Let us refer to clause 114.
Ayes, 25; noes, 20; majority, 5.
AYES.
The parliament may from time to time admit Abbott, Sir Joseph Kingston, C. C.
to the commonwealth any of the cxisting colonies. Barton, E.
Lewis, N. E.
That is one thing.
Berry, Sir G.
· Lyne, W. J.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What are the
Brown, N. J.
McMillan, W.
Brunker, J. N.
colonies when once admitted ?
O'Connor, R. E.
Carruthers, J. H. Peacock, A. J.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Clarke, M. J.
Quick, Dr. J.
If the hon. member will wait, I will ex-
Downer, Sir J. W. Reid, G. H.
Fysh, Sir P. O.
Turner, Sir G.
· plain it to his perfect satisfaction. The
Henry, J.
Walker, J. T.
clause says, “and may from time to time
Higgins, H. B. Zeal, Sir W. A.
establish new states.” They can do two Holder, F. W.
Teller,
things. They may admit existing colo- Howe, J. H.
Isaacs, I. A.
nies and they may establish new states.
NOES.
Now, go to the first part of the bill. There
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Henning, A. H.
Briggs, H.
James, W. H.
6 states," not“ new states”; there
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Leake, G.
is no such term. . We have one definition Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
of states, and these are the existing colo- Dobson, K.
Solomon, V. L.
nies of New South Wales, Queensland,
Douglas, A.
Symon, J. H.
Forrest, Sir J.
Venn, H. W.
Victoria, New Zealand, Western Australia,
Glynn, P. M.
Wise, B. R.
and the province of South Australia. Grant, C. H.
Then we have got the provisions in clause Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
114.
Hassell, A. Y.
Gordon, J. H.
An Hon.MEMBER : The hon. and learned
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
member is not correct !
Clause further amended by the omission
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER:I of the words " so that.”
quite agree that they are not states until The CHAIRMAN : The next amendment
they adopt the constitution, but directly is an amendment by the Legislative Coun-
they adopt the constitution they are states cil of New South Wales, to strike out
but not new states. You have the positions the word “equal," and insert the word
put in apposition in clause 114. They can "proportionate.” Inasmuch as that would
admit existing colonies and establish new conflict with a decision arrived at by
states. My hon. and learned friend's draft- the Committee, I shall not put it. The
ing is better than he dreamed of. I
agree next amendment is one proposed by the
with him as he has put it, but I do not Legislative Council of New South Wales,
agree with him at all as he intends it. I am to strike out the word "six" before
it says
:
416
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
1
"senators," and insert the word :66 three." with their own electoral laws in their own
Inasmuch as that would conflict with a way; and holding that opinion—I do not
decision already arrived at by the Com- wish to argue the matter at any length-I
mittee, I shall not put it.
think it would be unwise ; I do not think
Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. it would be a wise dictation to the other
states, that South Australia should succeed ·
Clause 9, paragraph 5. The qualification of
electors of senators shall be in each state that
in carrying this amendment.
which is prescribed by this constitution or by The CHAIRMAN : I understand that this
the parliament as the qualification for electors
amendment will be put to test the whole
of members of the house of representatives,
of the amendments of South Australia in
but in the choosing of sepators each elector shall
vote only once, and if any elector votes more
favour of the adoption of adult suffrage as
than once, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour. the franchise of the federation.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South
sembly of South Australia :
Australia) [4:43]: I should have been
Omit" qualification of electors of."
content for one to have simply taken a
The CHAIRMAN: The first amendment is
vote on this question without speech, see-
an amendment by the Assembly of South ing that its purport is well understood.
Australia. That House proposes to leave But as some argument has been used, I am
out the words "the qualification of electors bound, as shortly as I can, to put the other
of," and then to leave out all the words side. It is said that each state should be
after "shall be," in the first line, with the free to deal with its own representation as .
view of inserting the following words :- it pleases. Now, I do not think that is
66 elected in all tbe federated states on the fair. The question is not the representa-
basis of one adult one vote." I shall put tion of each state as a matter concerning
the first amendment=first to leave out the
only itself. The truth is, the representa-
words " qualification of electors of." The tion of another state may affect a state
question is, that the words proposed to be
even more than its own representation
left out stand part of the paragraph. may affect it. Take, for instance, the
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South position of South Australia. I have put
Wales) (4:41]: This is an endeavour to it before, and I put it again shortly, that
enact in the constitution that no matter the representation to which the colony of
what has been the law of the several states, New South Wales is entitled in the house
they shall all, with regard to this question of representatives is a much more vital
of adult suffrage, conform to the law as it matter to South Australia than is its
is in South Australia. I may be quite own representation, because in this colony
prepared to admit that in some colonies there would be twenty-six representatives,
there is a tendency to approve of adult while in the colony of South Australia
suffrage-female suffrage. I am not going there would be only seven. It matters,
to discuss the question as to whether there therefore, much more to South Australia
is an actual tendency to approve of it, or what the basis is upon which the twenty-
whether there is a majority for it, in my six are elected in New South Wales than
own colony or in any other colony. But what the basis is on which the seven are
I take it that until a uniform suffrage law elected there. We protest, then, that it is
is passed by the federal parliament, under not a matter in which each colony is con-
the general provisions in the clause dealing cerned only as to its own representation.
with qualifications, the various states will It is a matter in which each colony is con-
reserve to themselves the right to deal cerned as to the whole of the representa-
[The Chairman.
Commonwealth of
417
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
:
tives, no matter where they are chosen. The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
On that view the House of Assembly in Wales) [4:49]: I take it that it will be in
South Australia contended that as in that accordance with the understanding arrived
colony they already had adult suffrage, at this morning that we should take in
and as in the colony of Victoria by a large their order the constitution of the senate
majority on the discussion of the Common- and the constitution of the house of
repre-
wealth Bill the Lower House adopted the sentatives, and the relative money powers,
principle of adult suffrage, so we might and then proceed to the question of the
concede that throughout the whole of the deadlock provisions.
commonwealth the principle of adult suf- An HON. MEMBER : There are some
frage was making way, and presently it more amendments in this clause !
would prevail, and we should hardly be The Hon. E. BARTON: I was not
taking any step in advance of public aware of that. I was going on to say
opinion, but simply be keeping abreast of that, in accordance with the understanding
it, if we made this provision in the bill.
mentioned, I would move the postpone-
Therefore, without further speech, I urge
ment of clauses from 10 to 23 inclusive,
that the Convention should adopt the
so that we should reach the first clause
amendment of the House of Assembly of dealing with the constitution of the house
South Australia.
of representatives.
HON. MEMBERS : Divide !
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
Question—That the words "qualifica- and Assembly of Tasmania :
tion of electors of” proposed to be left
Omit the words, line 7, “and if any elector
votes more than once he shall be guilty of a
out stand part of the paragraph-put. The misdemeanour."
Committee divided :
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
Ayes, 32; noes, 13; majority, 19.
[4.51]: It was pointed out at the Adelaide
AYES.
Convention that the bill should not em-
Abbott, Sir Joseph Henning, A. H.
brace anything except what was necessary
Braddon, Sir E. N. Henry, J.
Briggs, H.
Howe, J. H.
for the framing of the constitution, and
Brown, N. J.
Leake, G.
that any matters which belong to the
Brunker, J. N. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G. criminal law or the electoral laws of the
Carruthers, J. H. Lewis, N. E.
states had better be left as they are. As far
Crowder, F. T.
McMillan, W.
Dobson, H.
Reid, G. H.
as the criminal law is concerned, it should
Douglas, A.
Solomon, V. L.
not be part of the constitution. I would,
Downer, Sir J. W. Symon, J. H.
in view of the suggestions made by the
Forrest, Sir J.
Venu, H. W.
Tasmanian Parliament, draw the attention
Fraser, S.
Walker, J. T.
Fysh, Sir P. O.
Wise, B. R.
of the leader of the Convention to this de-
Glynn, P. M.
Zeal, Sir W. A:
sirable amendment.
Grant, C. H.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
Wales) [4.52]: There seemed to be a con-
Hassell, A. Y.
Barton, E.
siderable number of members at Adelaide
Noes.
Berry, Sir G.
Kingston, C. C.
who wished to have this provision about
Clarke, M. J.
Lyne, W. J.
a misdemeanour inserted, and it was in-
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Peacock, A. J.
serted in accordance with the wish of the
Gordon, J. H.
Quick, Dr. J.
Higgins, H. B.
majority. I am myself of opinion that so
Turner, Sir G.
Isaacs, I. A.
far as you can you should leave the con-
James, W. H.
Holder, F. W.
stitution to deal simply with matters of
Question so resolved in the affirmative, necessary machinery. I am not myself
Teller,
1
2 G
418
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 189.7.]
strongly in favour of a provision of this penalty provided for violating it. There-
kind, and I think it can be otherwise fore, the hon. member, Mr. Barton, and
provided for.; but I am entirely in the the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor, agreed
hands of the Committee. If there is such to put this provision in the bill.
a desire on the part of the Committee, I The Hon. E. BARTON.: We also pointed
shall not.object to the retention of these out that it would be a:misdemeanour with-
words, although I admit the force of the out stating so in this bill.
argument that the constitution act is not Dr. QUICK: No doubt; but by retain-
the place for making offences against the ing these words we shall :make it plain in
criminal law, or for prescribing penalties. the constitution that this is not a mere
That is perfectly true; but the object in abstract principle, but one that can be.en-
the first instance seemed to be to obtain a forced by the federal .courts.
Unless a
statement of this kind in the constitution. penalty is mentioned there, it will be a
The object seemed to be to make it plain matter of doubt. As a question of law,
on the face of the constitution that who- it is generally understood that the viola-
soever offended against the law of one tion of any statute carries with it the
man one vote should be in danger of the penalty of a misdemeanour. If so, why
police. I think I pointed out in Adelaide, not place it in the Constitution, so as to
and hon. members mostly agreed with make the matter plain and beyond all
me, that where 'a man does wilfully and doubt? I therefore strongly urge the Con-
deliberately what is against the express vention to retain this provision !
provisions of an act it is a misdemeanour, Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [4.56]:
and there is no necessity to place that in It seems to me that whether the provision
an act of parliament.
is retained or not it will be precisely the
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [4:54] : I think same. The words, in my opinion, are
this is one of the principles which must mere surplusage. Everyone knows that
be kept in the bill if we want to obtain when & statute prescribes anything the
substantial support for it in Victoria. I, breach of it is a misdemeanour at common
for one, strongly advocate that the prin- law. There will be this difficulty about
ciple of single voting should be firmly em- retaining the words, and I draw the atten-
bedded in the constitution, and not left to tion of the hon, member, Dr. Quick, to it:
the discretion of the state parliaments. If we keep the words in, there may arise a
Whilst we were not able to secure difficulty as to the jurisdiction under which
uniform federal franchise, I agreed to an offender should be tried, whether it should
accept it as a sort of compromise that the be by the federal or by the local courts.
principle of single voting should be put in Dr. QUICK: No more than if it were
the constitution. I strongly urged that an implied misdemeanour !
on the leader of the Convention, and it Mr. WISE: I am not sure ; possibly
was then put in the constitution. But not; and that may be an answer to the
having put the provision in the constitu- argument. But ït does seem to me that
tion without any machinery for giving if you put in this provision you cannot say
effect to it, what was the good :of it? by what court an offender should be tried.
There was no sanction for giving effect to If we retain the words, it will be a blot
the principle of single voting. Any federal on the drafting.
voter might pote-a hundred times. It was The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
merely an assertion of an abstract prin- Australia) [4:58] : I do not want to take
ciple in the constitution, and there was no up any time in debating this question ;
a
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
419
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
but I would point out that this will be a
Nors.
restriction on the federal parliament. They Braddon, Sir E. N. Henning, A. H.
Briggs, H.
might want to make this offence more than
Henry, J.
Brown, N. J.
James, W. H.
a misdemeanour; they might want to in- Brunker, J.:N. Leake, G.
flict some other punishment. It seems to
Clarke, M. J.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Crowder, F. T. Lewis, N. E.
me an unnecessary interference with the
Dobson, H.
McMillan, W.
rights of the federal parliament.
Douglas, A,
Reid, G. H.
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania.) Downer, Sir J. W. Symons, J. H.
[4:59]: The principle for which the 'hon. Forrest, Sir J.
Venn, H. W.
member, Dr. Quick, is .contending is em-
Fysh, Sir P. O. Walker, J. T.
Glynn, P. M.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
bedded in the constitution without the
Grant, C. H.
words proposed to be omitted. We pro- Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
vide:thatieach elector shall :vote only once.
Hassell, A, Y.
Wise, B. R.
It is not proposed to leave out those words, Question 50 resolved in the negative.
so that the principle of one man one vote is
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
embedded in the constitution.
sembly of Victoria :
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: A lay- Atend.of.clause add the following paragraph:
man reading that would say, "" There is no
-“No elector who has at the establishment of
penalty-I shall vote as often as I like:!”
the commonwealth, or who afterwards acquires
a riglít to vote at elections for the more numer-
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS : Surely we ous house of the parliament of the state, shall,
can leave it to the federal parliamentito whilst the right continues, be prevented by any
make provision
law of the commonwealth from voting at elec-
tions for senators."
Dr. QUICK.: How can you do that in
the case of the first-election!
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: A's faras the [5.3]: This suggestion concerns South
Australia more than it concerns Victoria..
first election is concerned, it will be a mis-
demeanour at common law, and there is
It is, perhaps, a suggestion for the Draft-
the usual penalty for any misdemeanour, ing Committee to deal with. It is made
for which a punishment is not otherwise
in order to preserve, in regard to the senate,
provided. Surely it will be a blot on this
the right of women in South Australia to
constitution if we embody in it something vote, just as that right is preserved in the
which should be dealt with 'by the crimi-
case of the house of representatives. The
nallaw.
wording of the amendmentis only, I think,
Question-That the words “and if any
to carry out the intention of the Conven-
elector votes more than once he shall be
tion. In clause 30 certain election quali-
guilty of a misdemeanour,” stand part
fications are fixed for electors; but there
of the paragraph-put. The Committee
is a provision that women are not to be
divided :
prevented by the federal parliament from
Ayeş, 16; noes, 28; majority, -12.
voting at elections for the house of repre-
AYES.
sentatives. It is restricted to that.
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
The Hon. E. BARTON: We can meet
Barton, E.
Kingston, C. C.
Berry, Sir G.
the difficulty, I think, by making the last
Lyne, W.J.
Cookburn, Dr.-J..A.
Quick, Dr. J.
part of clause 30 to apply to the senate,
Fraser, S.
Solomon, V., L.
by putting it under the provisions relating
Gordon, J. H.
Turner, Sir G.
to both houses:!
Higgins, H. B.
Holder, F. W.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That, I think,
Howe, J. H.
Peacock, A. J.
will meet the case. I merely draw attention
Teller,
420
Australia Bill.
Commoravealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
1
to the matter, leaving the framing of the But each of the existing colonies of New
amendment to the Drafting Committee.
South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland,
Tasmania, Victoria, and Western Australia,
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
and the province of South Australia, shall be 25
Wales (5·4] : I would suggest that we entitled to five representatives at the least.
should formally negative this amendment, The CHAIRMAN : The first suggestion is
and the Drafting Committee will frame an a suggestion by the Legislative Council
amendment by which on the recommittal and Legislative Assembly of Western Aus-
of the bill, which must take place, the pro- tralia to insert after the word “numbers,”
vision at the end of clause 30, will be made in the first paragraph, the words “subject
to apply both to the senate and to the house to the provisions of sub-section 3.”
of representatives.
Amendment negatived.
Amendment negatived; paragraph 5, as
The CHAIRMAN : The next suggestion is
amended, agreed to.
to leave out all the words in the first para-
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to. graph after the word “numbers.” The
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South Legislative Assembly of Victoria and the
Wales) [5.5]: The understanding was that Legislative Assembly of New South Wales
we should simply take those clauses which each desire that these words be left out,
refer absolutely and inherently to the very
and wish other words to be put in. The
constitution of the senate and house of suggestions are substantially the same.
representatives in order that we might Amenilment suggesteil by the Legislative Assen.
the earlier get to the question of money
bly of New South Wales :
Lines 4 to 21, omit after “numbers to the
powers and the question of deadlocks. I
end of the next paragraph, in line 21, insert
take it that we will go back to those things.
"and, until the Parliament of the common-
If we can save half an hour in that way wealth otherwise provides, each state shall have
it will be better to do so. Therefore, in
one representative for every thirty thousand of
its people."
order that we may reach clause 24, I
move :
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
That clauses 10 to 23 inclusive be postponed.
(Victoria) [5.9]: This is an important
Motion agreed to.
clause, inasmuch as it forms the basis for
the election of the house of representa-
Part III.-The House of Representatives.
tives, and if I recollect aright, the scheme
Clause 24. The house of representatives
was devised by my hon. and learned friend,
shall be composed of members directly chosen
by the people of the several states, according
Mr. O'Connor, at the Adelaide Conven-
to their respective numbers; as nearly as
tion. In the bill of 1891 we followed out
5 practicable there shall be two members of the the principle that, so far as the house of
house of representatives for every one mem- representatives was concerned, we should
ber of the senate.
have one member for each 30,000 of the
Until the parliament otherwise provides for
the method of determining the number of
population in the state, and the only rea-
10 members for each quiota, there shall be one
son I could ever ascertain for this peculiar
member for each quota of the people of the provision was that it might form the basis
state, and the quota shall, whenever neces- of the two houses meeting together after-
sary, be ascertained by dividing the popula-
wards to settle difficulties under what is
tion of the commonwealth as shown by the
15 latest statistics of the commonwealth by twice
termed the Norwegian system. This pro-
the number of the members of the senate, and posal is that as nearly as practicable there
the number of members to which each state shall be two members of the house of
is entitled shall be determined by dividing representatives for every one member of
the population of the state as shown by the
20 latest statistics of the commonwealth by the
the senate. There is no power to alter the
quota.
fundamental principle which is laid down
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
421
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that at all times, as nearly as practicable, experience, I think, will lead us to the
the number of members in the house of re- conclusion that those electorates will be
presentatives shall be twice the number of single electorates. Thus, whenever that
the senators. I objcct to that, and I think event occurs, and the numbers of the people
there are many reasons why. First, I think in either of the colonies increase so as to
where there is a house of representatives of entitle them to their five members, then a
the people, the people should have repre- redistribution will have to take place in all
sentation according to the numbers in the the other colonies. Some of them must
various states. I know of no reason why lose a certain number of their members.
there should be any limit upon that, unlessit Then, if we have Queensland with us, and
be for the purpose of preventing the house if Queensland is divided at any time, or
of representatives becoming altogether un- if by any other means the number of the
wieldy. The proposal in the first instance senators be increased, that will necessitate
was that the numbers should be one for a redistribution over the whole of Aus-
every 30,000. I, myself, suggested it should tralia. I should like to hear from those
be one for 40,000 or 50,000; and I am who favour this peculiar provision, reasons
perfectly satisfied that it should be one for which ought to induce us to accept it. I
50,000; but, under the proposal, as it now fail to see any. I think it is contrary to
stands, if we have a certain number—say we the principle on which the house of repre-
have six states coming in-we then would sentatives should be based—that is, that
have thirty-six members in the senate, it is the house which, as contradistin-
and if we had a double number we should guished from the senate, will represent the
have seventy-two in the house of repre people in the various states as individuals.
sentatives. As certain states would not be All I think we ought to do is to see that
entitled to the full number according to
that house is so chosen as not to become
the population, and as the minimum for unwieldy. If we limit the number to the
the existing states is defined for each, the fifty, each particular state, according to its
number would be slightly over the seventy- population, will get its proper number, and
two-I think seventy-six. Hon. members
as the statistics are taken, I suppose every
will see that the numbers of people in the ten years, the necessary variations will be
various states will probably go on increas- made. But I think it will be very hard on
ing in some colonies more rapidly than in any state which had been sending to the
others, and eventually it will happen that house of representatives, say, twenty mem-
in Western Australia, and no doubt in bers, to find that because some other states
Tasmania, they will arrive at a certain are entitled to an extra number they must
population which will entitle them to the reduce their number from twenty to seven-
minimum, and as soon as that happens the teen or eighteen. That will create a great
number will have to be reduced from the deal of dissatisfaction. Whilst the states
seventy-eight to seventy-two. As each will be perfectly satisfied to say "We will re-
colony comes to the minimum that will main with the existing number," I fear they
have to occur. The result of that will be will not be satisfied if they find the number
that there will have to be a reduction in has to be reduced. In addition to that
the number of members of some of the there will always be the trouble of redistri-
other colonies. We must not forget that buting the seats and the extra expense.
the colonies have to be divided into elec- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : If we have
torates for the purpose of electing the re- relatively smaller populations there must
presentatives of this particular house; and be relatively smaller representation too!
422
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: If vides for 30,000 people until parliament
there is relatively smaller population; of otherwise provides. That was the provi-
course there will be relatively smaller re- sion in the bill of 1891, and it was deemed
presentation
I have read the debates wise to prevent any possible danger arising
which have taken place on the matter, and from it by framing the clause in the way
I fail to see any justification whatever for the hon. member, Mr. R. E. O'Connor,
adopting this very peculiar principle: I drafted it by providing for some auto
trust my hon: friend will be able to explain matio means of adjusting the quota, that
the reason of it, and then I, or some other is;. the number of people to choose a repre-
representative who holds a view similar to sentative. The clause, as it stands at pre-
my own, will be able to controvert them. sent, does not by any means prevent legis-
At present, however, there is no justifica- lation on the part of the commonwealth.
tion that I know of for following any other As hon;. members will see; the clause, after
practice than to say that in the house of stating that the house of representatives
the people the people shall be represented should be composed of members directly
from the various colonies according to the chosen by the people of the states, accord-
number of people in those colonies: ing to the respective numbers, and that as
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South nearly as practicable. there should be two
Wales) [5:17]:: I hope the Committee will members of the house of representatives
not adopt any such provision as would for every one member of the senate, goes
give the house of representatives for all oni to: say:
time—unless with an: amendment in: the Until the parliament otherwise provides for:
constitution accompanied by the referendum
the method of determining the number of mem-
bers for each quota,, there shall be one member.
-a representation of one member to every
for each quota of the people of the state, and the
30,000 people. If population increase in
quota shall, whenever necessary, be ascertained
anything like the same ratio as that which by dividing the population of the commonwealth
has been exhibited in recent years; such
as shown by the latest statistics of the common-
wealth. by twice the number of the members of
a provision would lead to an enormous
the senate, and the number of members to which
and unwieldy house of representatives--a each state is entitled shall be determined by
house of representatives altogether too dividing the population of the state as shown:by
large for the requirements of the people:
the latest statistics of the commonwealth by the
quota.
A table; upon which:I cannot lay my hands -
That also is, only a provision that the
at present, was prepared at the Adelaide
quota principle shall be valid until parlia-
Convention, which showed what rate of
ment otherwise provides. But, inasmuch
increase in population might be expected
as. parliament. may not make any provision
every decade for the next five diecades and
for a considerable number of years, there
what would then be the numbers of the
would, in the meantime, under the quota
house of representatives. The result of
system, be a means of preventing any un-
tliat table was, I am quite sure; to open due increase in the number of the members
any body's eyes to the fact that to fix a of either house. The provision would act
rigid' number as the proportion by which automatically, and if parliament afterwards
the number of members of the house of chose to make a fresh provision its hands
representatives' was to be gauged would would not be tied. .
lead to very serious consequences. We An Hon. MEMBER: It could not alter
have two proposals before us from the the proportion of two to one!
parliaments of Victoria and New South The Hon: E. BARTON: No. So far as
Wales, and each of these proposals pro- that proportion is concerned, I have always.
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of [13. SEPT., 1897.] Avstralicu Bill 423
regarded it as a very salutary one. The ob- tained. I take it that we do not wish to
ject.of: it is to provide, as I think it should diminish the importance or dignity of
be provided, that, on the one hand, any either house of parliament, but to keep
increase in the number of states, which them in some relative proportion in every
might occur upon a particular contingency, respect. The provision in the first part of
should not take place without a correspond- the clause. that the numbers of the two
ing alteration in the number of the house houses should be as two: to one-seems to me
of representatives, and that, on the other reasonable. As to the remaining part of
hand; the disparity in numbers between the the clause; I have now the figures. I was
house of representatives and the senate. just referring to: Taking the population
should not at any time be too large. It at the end of-1895, upon the average rates
was considered that there should be two of increase in the past, the result would
members of the house of representatives be that with a member for every 50,000 of
to every member of the senate, and I think the population, you would start in 1897
that this arrangement would prevent the with 71 members in the house of repre-
house of representatives from being too sentatives'; in 1901, four years later, there
nearly approached in numbers by the senate, would be 88 members; in 1911, four-
and would prevent the senate from being teen years later, 129 members ; in. 1921,
confined to some small number; with the re- twenty-four years later, 190, members;
sult of seriously diminishing its importance thirty-four years later, 283 members:;. and
and its consequence in the eyes of the forty-four years: later; 446, members.
federation.
The Right. Hon. Sir G.. TURNER :: Are
Mr: HIGGINS :: Why should the num- those the figures: whicli were used in
ber in the house of representatives depend Adelaide ?
in any way upon the number of the The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not think
states.?
they are. They are the figures: which were
The Hon. E: BARTON : That question subsequently laid on the table by the hon,
was asked: in Adelaide, and was dealt with and learned member; Mr:.O'Connor. They
there. The number in the house of
repre.
seem rather familiar to me in one respect,
sentatives. must depend upon the number and strange in another. They do not
of states, for two reasons: First, there seem to bear. out certain contentions of
must be an equal number of representa- my hon. friend, Mr. Isaacs, about the
tives from the states which originally con- dwindling importance of Victoria under
tract, and the whole number is increased the operation of this table.
every time a state is added to the common- The Right. Hon. Sir G: TURNER : Will
wealth. I take it that it is: a fair thing not clause 28. get over the difficulty. ?
to provide that there should be concurrent The Hon. E. BARTON: It may
may do so
action in these questions as far as possible. to a certain extent; but if you have a re-
If
you do not make this provision, as I presentation of one to every. 50,000; you
have just pointed out, you might have the will have a house of nearly 450: members
senate approaching too nearly in numbers a little over forty years:hence. I think it
to the house of representatives and over-. is desirable that, until Parliament takes
shadowing it; while, on the other hand, this matter in hand, there should be some
you: would have a provision whereby the automatic provision which would regulate
senate would be kept at some such number it. I believe that it would be a bad thing
as would enable its importance and dignity to start with an iron provision that there
in the eyes of the community to be main- should be a representative to every 30,000
.:
424
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
or to every 50,000 of the population. The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: As the
While I am perfectly content to trust the clause stands, the exact proportion of mem-
federal parliament in every matter, so bers is maintained precisely as it would
far as it can possibly be done, we must be under the one in 30,000 or the one
acknowledge the contingency of the fed- in 50,000 plan. It is a very ingenious
eral parliament preferring not to legislate; arrangement that there shall be one mem-
and we must therefore make a provision ber for every seventy-second part of the
which will work automatically, as the quota population.
provision will, in the absence of any pro- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I ob-
visions being made by the federal parlia- ject to the arrangement altogether, because
ment, or in the event of the federal parlia- it is based upon the Norwegian plan!
ment being satisfied with it. This arrange- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : That
ment will always keep the number of the is immaterial. I am not contending for
two houses from reaching an extent which, this scheme because it provides that the
under the ordinary increase of population, number of the house of representatives
would be disastrous and extravagant. shall be double the number of the senate.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Whether you keep or give up that prin-
Australia) (5.27]: I do not think there is ciple, the idea of a quota is a good one,
any great principle involved in the fixing because it provides an automatic arrange-
of the number of the house of representa- ment which adjusts itself from time to
tives at twice the number of the senate. time, and will work on for a hundred years
At the same time, it appears to me a very without the slightest difficulty, maintain-
convenient plan for maintaining some bal- ing an equal proportion of representation
ance between the two houses, and I can throughout the commonwealth. There
see no objection to it. The question that should be one member to every 30,000 of
understood the Right Hon. Sir George population say some; there should be one
Turner to raise was : Why should there member to every 50,000 of the population
not be representation in proportion to popu- say others; but the fairest arrangement is
lation right throughout the commonwealth ? that there should be one member to every
It seems to me that that is secured by the seventy-second part of the population.
wording of the bill as it stands. One pro- Does the hon. member see that?
posal is that there shall be a representa- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I agree
tative for every 30,000 of the population, that that is so. But no matter how the
another that there shall be a representa population increases the number of mem-
tive for every 50,000 of the population. bers in the house of representatives cannot
What the bill says is that there shall be a be increased unless you increase the num-
representative for every seventy-second ber of members in the senate. I object to
part of the population.
that!
An Hon. MEMBER: A member sent from The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : There is
Victoria to the house of representatives no object in increasing the number of mem-
will represent a larger number than a bers. Suppose the population of all the
member sent from South Australia.
states were increased at once, there would
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No beno object in doubling the representation,
matter how the population increases, you so long as the proportion is maintained,
cannot increase the number of represen-
and it is maintained by adopting a quota.
tatives, unless you increase the number of If 60,000 people have a representative in
the senate.
one state, 60,000 peeple will have a repre-
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bili.
425
If 40,000
sentative in another state.
Mr. GLYNN: Two-thirds of our popu-
people have a representative in one state, lation !
40,000 people will have a representative The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I said ap-
in another state.
proximate. The constitution provided that,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I admit in the first place, there should be one mem-
that!
ber of the house of representatives for
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Well, is about 30,000 of inhabitants.
not that a fair arrangement. I think it is
The Hon. S. FRASER: It was not to
a very ingenious arrangement for an auto- exceed that!
matic adjustment of what it would other- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It was not
wise be very difficult to adjust.
to exceed that. . What they did was this :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) They had one member for 33,000; then
[5.30]: I takeit that what we have settled they increased the quota until, as the popu-
in this Convention is that the states are
lation increased, instead of there being one
to be represented as states, independently member for 33,000, there was one member
of the number of people they contain, so
for 173,000 ; so that, as the population
far as the senate is concerned. That is the increases, the number of the members of
arrangement that has been arrived at by the house of representatives relatively
this Convention as a whole, and it is cer-
decreases. What was done was this: The
tainly claimed as a principle, if not as a
first House of Representatives consisted of
right, by my hon. friends from the less 65 members, which was one for every
populous states. Now, when we come to 30,000 inhabitants. By the census of 1790
deal with the house of representatives, it
there were constituted 106 representatives
is our turn to claim and insist, as I take it, one for every 33,000 inhabitants. By
that we shall have representation in that
that of 1810, 183 representatives—one for
house on the basis of population, uninter- every 35,000 inhabitants. By that of 1820
fered with by the number of people in the 213 representatives—one for every 40,000
states, and absolutely independent of the inhabitants. By that of 1830, 242 repre-
constitution of thesenate. I object strongly sentatives one for every 47,700 inhabit.
to be tied up in the number of the house ants. By that of 1840 223 representatives
of representatives by whatever may be the one for every 70,680 inhabitants. By
number in the senate, and I think you can the act of May 23, 1850, the number of
do no better than follow the American representatives was increased to 233 mem-
Constitution in this respect. That Consti- bers from the states, which was one for
tution provides for all possible cases; and every 93,423 inhabitants.
I will show this Convention, as I endea- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : It required
voured to show in Adelaide, by most relia- an act of Congress in each case !
ble authorities, as to the number of the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : In each case.
American House of Representatives, that As I said before, and now wish to repeat,
the constitution embraces all the necessary the people will take very good care that
and proper provisions for keeping down the the number of the house of representatives
number of the House of Representatives is not unduly increased.
to whatever number the people think right.
The Hon. S. FRASER : That is not our
When the American Constitution was experience!
framed the number of people under it was
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is a ques-
somewhat approximate to the present popu- tion of increasing the number, and what
lation of Australia,
I say is that the people will take care that
426
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT:, 1897.]
1
census.
the number is not increased:, I will read you will have a fixed.quota, and a good
hon, members a passage and the matter thing too. If you have the same propor-
is one of vital importance to Victoria, and tion of members amid a growing popula-
no doubt also to New South Wales--from tion—that is, two members to one member
the work of Dr. Woodrow Wilson; called in the senate-you would have such im-
66 The State." He says:
mense constituencies that we should have
Congress itself decides. by law how many re- great difficulty indeed in the future in in-
presentatives there shall be.; it then. divides the ducing any but the most wealthy men to
number decided upon among the states accord-
contest an election, and that is a very seri-
ing to population ; after which each. state is
divided by its own legislature into as many dis-
ous matter. Why should not the federal par-
tricts as it is to have representatives, and the liament in this and other respects be trusted?
people of each of these districts are entitled to There is now a good.opportunity for many
elect one member to the House. The only limi--
of my hon, friends who have been loud in
tation put by the Constitution itself upon the
number of representatives is that there shall
their adjurations that we should trust the
never be more than one for every 30,000 inhabi. federal parliament, to put into definite prac-
tants. The first House of Representatives had
tice the precepts they seek to enforce. The
by direction of the Constitution itself sixty-five
American Constitution leaves the matter in
members, upon the proportion of one for every
33,000 inhabitants. The number has of course
the hands of Congress, and I would point
grown, and the proportion decreased with the out how important the matter is to the
growth of population. A census is taken every larger colonies. If you want to increase
ten years, and the rule is to effect readjustments
and a redistribution of representation after every
the number. of representatives under the
At present there are 330 members in bill as it stands, you must get the consent
the House, and the states are given one member
one member of the senate; and the senate may say,“We,
for every 154,325 of their:inhabitants. In.cases
are not inclined, even if we were increased
where a state has many thousands more than an
even number of times that many inhabitants it
in number, to increase the number of the
is given an additional member to represent the
house, of representatives.” Thus
you
have:
balance.
an instant block. If, on the other hand,
Therefore, it is perfectly plain that every you say to the senate; “We want to re-
ten years the American people, through duce the proportional number of members
their congress, do constantly and regularly of the house of representatives, and we
reduce the proportion of the number of want you as a senate to consent to that,"
their representatives in their legislature; the senate naturally would never refuse.
and it is for public opinion to decide what It has never refused to do so in America,
the quota shall be in each particular in- and that is how it is there is never any
stance. But if you are going to say that difficulty there. When there is any change.
the bouse of representatives shall be always in the proportion of representation in
in the proportion of two to one in the America, the request of the House of Re-
senate, what will be the result? Unless presentatives to the Senate is to reduce the
you have an amendment of the constitu- number the House of Representatives would
tion there will be this result: that no mat- otherwise contain, and naturally, the Senate
ter-how the population grows in the future will always. agree to that. Now, I do not
we shall have no more than seventy-two know whether I ought to use the figures
members in the house of representatives, which have been produced to-day. I hardly:
because I take it that in a few years the think the leader of the Convention really
minimum in the house of representatives intended to put them forward as reliable.
for some of the less populous states would figures';. but I have worked out some, re-
disappear. Even if there be subdivision sults from them which are rather startling.
(The Hon. I. A Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
427
[13, SEPT., 1897:]
Australia Bill.
Having done so I was told that I could The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The same
not rely upon them, and when I was told thing has taken place in America, accord-
that Ithought the hon: memberhad dropped ing to the figures that the hon: and learned
them.
gentleman quoted!
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not sup- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No. Every
pose you could rely upon the relative pro- state in America has grown in population;
portions, but they afford a fair index of but they take very good care that the
what the gross population of Australia number of the members of the House of
will be !
Representatives increases—with very few
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The gross exceptions, increases in accordance with
population of Australia is put down in de- the growth of the population, but they re-
cennial periods, and it is only arrived at duce the ratio ; they reduce the quota;
by an estimate in each colony.
they take very good care that no state
The Hon. E. BARTON: No one can fore- ever gets fewer members in the House of
cast the way in which the Australian popu- Representatives than it had before ; some
lation will increase !
may get more, and I suppose that they
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If the figures nearly all get more, but not more in exact
are to be taken even approximately they proportion to the growth of population,
lead to most surprising results. It is because the quota is diminished. There-
quite true, as the hon. members, Mr. Bar- fore, that does not apply. What I think
ton and Mr. Holder, put it, that, in one is that we should take this stand as a
respect, the proportionate distribution of matter of principle in regard to the house
members amongst all the colonies, when of representatives. It is a house which;
once the total is arrived at, will be fair as admittedly, is to be based on population.
between the colonies. But that is not the The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : With, or
question. How will it affect the larger without a limit would the honand
colonies ? It means this: Victoria, in forty learned member put any limit at all ?
years from nowmeven if this table is only The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The federal
approximately correct--instead of having parliament will determine the límit.
about 1,200,000, as she has now, will have say not more than 1 for 50,000; the federal
about 4,000,000 people; and although she parliament can make it 1 for 60,000, and
will have twenty-four members at the pre- at the next increase of population 1 for
sent time, she will only have thirty mem- 70,000, and at length, when the popula-
bers in 1941.
tion.of Australia is many millions, it may
The Hon, E. BARTON: The other colo- say. 1 for 100,000 or 1 for 200,000.
nies will have in proportion !
The Hon. E. BARTON: The great.trouble-
The Hon. I. A, ISAACS : Quite- so. is that the universal tendency of popular
But, according to this expected result, chambers is to increase the number of
New South Wales will have just about their members, instead of diminishing it,
the same number as she will have at the to do so by express provision !
present time-twenty-six or twenty-seven. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I again re-
What I should like to ask, as a matter of turn to the standing example of America.
practical politics, is this : will Victoria I
say that there is a living proof that the
stand being told—"No matter if your quotas are increased and the numbers are
population should increase. by millions, in kept within proper limits. I would simply
proportion your number of members must repeat that to tie up the house of repre-
decrease" ?
sentatives a house literally based on
We
428
Commonwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
population--to tie it up by a fixed and Mr. WISE: You are dividing the popu-
practically unalterable rule—a rule abso- lation of the commonwealth by the num-
lutely unalterable except by a process ber of the senate, and, therefore, when
amending the constitution of the senate- there is any increase of population in a
after we have had the principle of equal state, that state will be entitled to a cer-
representation claimed on one side as a tain number of representatives in the
right, and given on the other side not as a house of assembly. I do not care what
right, but as a concession-after that con- the exact number will be. What I desire
clusion has been arrived at, I say that it to make plain is that, inasmuch as the
would be very bad policy indeed to say to increase of population is not the same
the larger colonies, “We will tie your throughout the continent, the effect will
house of representatives hand and foot to be that, where there is an increase of popu-
the senate ; although on the one hand we lation in any one colony-I care not which
provide that the one house shall be inde- --that colony cannot obtain its rights until
pendent of the other as far as equal repre-
we alter the whole system of relative repre-
sentation is concerned, we shall insist on
sentation of the whole of the other colonies
your house of representatives being limited in the senate. Take the case of New South
in its number according to the number of
Wales. If New South Wales increases in
members of the senate." I say that it would population so as to entitle her to increase
be bad policy on the part of the represen- of representation in the house of assembly,
tatives of the smaller states, and I do ask before she can get that increase of represen-
that the house of representatives shall con- tation we shall have to increase the voting
sist in numbers in proportion to the popu- power of South Australia, Tasmania, and
lation of the commonwealth, and that that Western Australia in the senate.
proportion shall be regulated by the wis- Mr. I. A. ISAACS : Or take the numbers
dom of the federal parliament.
off the other colonies !
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [5:56]:
Mr. WISE: That is what I am com-
I should like to ask the hon. and learned plaining of. There are two objections to
member, Mr. R. E. O'Connor, who is the the clause. It provides a balance between
father of the clause, to explain a matter
the members of the senate and of the house
which, to my mind, presents a very serious of assembly, and if that principle is to be
difficulty. As I understand the clause, there adhered to it is impossible to give to any
is to be one member for each quota; conse- one colony that increased representation
quently if the population of any colony, say
which the increase of its population will
Western Australia, quadrupled its popula- demand, unless you at the same time in-
tion, as is quite possible, within the next ten crease the voting power of all the other
years, that would raise the representation in states in the senate. That is how it appears
the house of Assembly from five to twenty. to me, and the question is, is there any
Mr. SYMON : That depends on how many reason why, before any one colony can get
there are in the other colonies !
that increase of voting power in the house
Mr. WISE : Whatever may be intended, of assembly to which it is entitled, the
I do not think that this clause provides
other colonies shall receive an access of
that. It says until the parliament other- voting strength in the senate to which
wise provides, there shall be one member they are not entitled, either by reason of
for each quota of the people.
increase of population or anything else?
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : The quota [The Chuir man left the chair at 5.50 p.m.
would increase as time went on !
The Committee resume at 4:30 p.m.]
1
[The Hon. I. 4. Isaacs.
Conmonuealth of
429
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Before An Hon. MEMBER : That part is in the
answering the simple, though somewhat machinery!
pertinent, question of my hon. and learned The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: It is in
friend, Mr. Wise, I think it would be well the machinery : So that it only comes back
to lay before the Committee my views in to this principle that I have indicated, that
answer to the speech of the hon. and there shall be a certain proportion between
learned member, Mr. Isaacs. I agree with the number of the senate and the number
him that this matter is a very important of the house of representatives. That
one, viewed not only from the standpoint brings one at once to the principle which,
of the larger states, but also from the it appears to me, has justified the adoption
standpoint of the constitution of the senate. of this system. If it were merely to arrive
Hon. members who described this as a cast- at some automatic way of keeping down
iron system, I think, have apprehended the the number of members of the house of
extent to which the system is cast-iron in representatives, it certainly would not be
this constitution. If they will refer to the worth while, as there are other ways in
24th clause, they will find that the only por- which that might be done. The fact of
tion of the principle which is fixed in the its limiting the number of members of the
constitution is that the house of represen- house of representatives is incidental
tatives shall bear the proportion of double merely to the main object of the applica-
the number of members of the senate. tion of this principle, which is to keep up
That is the only portion of this system
that relation between the number of the
which is fixed in the constitution, and as to
senate and the number of the house of re-
the mode of ascertaining the quota by which presentatives. On what ground does that
the representatives are to be kept to a num- stand? It stands on this ground, which,
ber proportionate to the number of the it appears to me, certainly ought to com-
senate, that is provided in this clause only mend itself to everyone who wishes to
until parliament otherwise determines, and see the senate an effective body in the
it leaves the parliament to determine atsome legislature. Of course numbers are not
future time any other method, if any other always a guarantee of effectiveness or
method is desirable, of fixing the quota. power in any legislative body, but if you
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Not have two bodies which are working co-
to alter the proportion !
relatively, and there is a tendency of the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: What I number in one body to become larger and
am pointing out now—and I think it larger every decade, and the other body to
necessary to clear the ground—is that the remain at a standstill, you get to a point
only unalterable part of the system is that to which from the mere smallness of its
fixing the proportion between the number numbers, the house which contains the
of members of the senate and the number smaller number of members will neces-
of members in the house of representatives. sarily lose in power and importance in the
That proportion being fixed unalterably in community. To give an illustration : Sup-
the constitution, a mode is provided by the pose, for instance, the number of the mein-
24th clause for ascertaining the quota of bers of the house of representatives in the
representatives in the house of representa- course of some thirty years grew to be
tives in order to maintain that proportion about 250, and the number of members of
—but that is subject to alteration by the the senate remained at 36.
parliament of the commonwealth when- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why should
ever it may think fit to take action. they?
430
Australia Bill.
Commonweuth of
]
[13 SEPT., 1897..
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR.: I am:giv- representation—whether we give it as a
ing an illustration now, and I will point concession, as-some of us say, or whether
out to hon, members by and by that it is we give it as a right, as some others claim
an illustration that goes as far as the facts ---having once given it, having once con-
are likely to justify. I say take that posi- stituted the senate upon that basis, having
tion of things. It must be very obvious once given it.certain powers, we ought to
that a house which contains .25.0 persons, be very careful to frankly and honestly
ropresenting the inhabitants :of the com- carr.y.out that principle all through in our
monwealth as a whole, must occupy a dealings with the senate. If it is to be a
stronger and more effective position in house representing the states, and if it iis
popular estimation than a house contain- to be made effective for certain purposes,
ing only 36 members, and representing we ought to be very careful that we leave
the states themselves. In the delibera- no germ:of.inoperation in the constitution
tions of these two bodies there can be no itself which will gradually sap the power
question that the weight attached to the and the vitality of that body,
smaller house would be correspondingly The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : How ?
less than when it bore a larger proportion The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I thought
to the more numerous house. It
It may be I made myself clear to the hon member.
said that the Senate of the United States I say that if we once concede the principle
is an illustration to the contrary. The of equal representation for the purpose of
Senate of the United States remains the making the senate a body which shall re-
same, while the House of Representatives present equally all the states, if we once
has been increased from time to time give.it certain powers which will make it
until now there is no doubt it bears a very an effective body, and as strong as such a
large proportion to the numbers of the body ought to be, we should take care that
senate. But the case of the Senate of the there is no principle in operation in the
United States is altogether different. That constitution which may detract from its
body has not only legislative functions, but strength.; and I say that the gradual in-
also executive functions of a very important crease in numbers of the house of repre-
character, and it is those .executive func- sentatives which would go on if there
tions which in the main.now lend to the sen- was no proportion fixed, and no limit
ate the great importance and weight which placed on the increase of the number
it exercises in the legislature of the United of the members of the house of represen-
States. We give our senate no such func- tatives, must gradually reduce the senate
tions ; it is merely a legislative body, and to a position of comparative inefficiency in
never can be anything more than a legis- regard to its weight in the community, I
lative body. Therefore, it appears to me referred to an example just now, and in
that if we are really to keep up that.power answer to an inquiry by my hon. and
and effectiveness in the senate, that every- learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, I said that it
one admits it must have if it is to take the was a suggestion only, but an example
place assigned to it in this constitution, that. I thought not very far from probable.
some method must be adopted by which I should like to say a word about the
a proportion in the number of these two figures which my hon. and learned friend,
houses must be kept up. I think it will Mr. Barton, referred to. These figures are
readily be admitted even by the hon. mem- based on actual results.; but, taking them
bers representing the larger colonies bere, beyond the present.time, they are, of course,
that having once given this right of equal necessarily only founded on supposition.
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
431
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
But they have been very carefully pre- would have increased from 71 in 1897 to
pared by Mr. Garran, to whom I am in- 88 in 1901. In 1911 it would have in-
debted very much throughout in preparing greased to 129; in 1921 ito.190 ; in 1931
this matter. These have been.prepared by to:283; in 1941 to-446.
him on the basis of Mr. Coghlan's figures.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What are these
They show an increase in the population increases based upon ?
of the different colonies, taking ten years'
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The in-
periods—in the same proportion in which crease of population is estimated and taken
the population has increased during the upon the periods just passed. They are
last ten years, and comparing them with taken from Coghlan's book on the seven
each other. I admit at once that figures colonies, where he gives the population for
of that kind are not necessarily reliable to an average of ten years. Taking the same
their fullest extent; they are only illus- rate in proportion, the increase in the
trations; but whether the illustrations are number of members in the house of
repre-
exaggerated, or do not comeup to the mark, sentatives would be something like what
they illustrate most conclusively that there I have stated. Make the largest discount
must be a tendency., as population goes on, you like for any error or exaggeration
to greatly increase the number of members there may be in that estimate, it still
of the house of representatives, if there is shows that if there were no method of
no check put upon it, to numbers which stopping this increase, the number of mem-
will very largely exceed the numbers of bers in the house of representatives would
the senate. I take this table, and hon. become very largely in excess of the pro-
members may discount it even freely, if portion which existed at the beginning of
they wish—the illustration still stands. the constitution.
In 1897, say that the total number in the An HON. MEMBER: No one advocates
house of representatives would be 71 ; in that!
1901, it would be.88.; in the year 1.911, The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I am quite
the number.of members would be 129. aware that a suggestion has been made that
An HON. MEMBER : Would that be the limitation should be left in the hands
according to the same proportion?
of the federal parliament. That brings me
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No; I to the second portion of the reasons which,
am now taking the quota proposed by the it appears to me, exist why this proposi-
hon. member—that is, -50,000.
tion should be carried in its original form.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: According to I have said that the proportion should be
the same quota ?
kept up between the house of representa-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR.: If we tives and the senate. I have pointed out
have no means of checking the increase in to what disparity we would be led if there
the number of members of the house of is no system of checking the increase in
representatives—if we simply fix in the the number of the house of representatives.
constitution the principle that there should My hon. friends opposite admit that there
be one member for every 50,000 inhabi- must be some method of stopping the in-
tants—I am showing what the number crease in the house of representatives. They
will be. I ain going to show the result of say there is no reason why the number of
what the hon. member proposes, supposing members in the house of representatives
there was no limitation upon it. Accord- should not be fixed exactly as the house of
ing to this return, in 1901 the number :of representatives may think fit to fix them
members in the house of representatives that there should be no proportion
432
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
1
Mr. Higgins : Rather, as both houses ber of members in the senate and the
fix it!
number of members in the house of repre-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Of course, sentatives. I come now to another view
as the parliament joins in fixing it, which of the matter which I think is no less
is practically the same thing. There can important. One of the objections which are
be no doubt that the same rule would ap- continually met with in the discussions in
ply in the dealings between the two houses public on this system of federation is the
as applies where a legislature consists of fear of the expenditure which it may
two houses—that is to say, that such a entail. There are many persons who look
question as an increase or a diminution with a great deal of fear-of course, in
in the number of members of the represen- many cases, with groundless fear-upon
tative house is always held to be within the extent to which the expenditure on
the province of that house. I feel perfectly the parliament may lead, and there are
confident it is the experience of hon. mem- many persons to whom it will be a very
bers that, in all the houses of the Aus-
strong recommendation if the federal con-
tralian colonies, that principle is invari- stitution contains some provisions by which
ably followed, and that no upper house there will be a guarantee against any need-
would dream of interfering seriously with less extravagance in the number of the
the fixing of the number of members of members of the legislature. And remember,
the house of representatives.
in dealing with the question of the number
Mr. HIGGINS : It would interfere under of members of the legislature, we are deal-
the proposed constitution !
ing with it on the same terms as those
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If the on which the parliaments have had to deal
hon. and learned member will not be im- with these questions in years gone by. We
patient I will meet all his objections. For are dealing now with a number of mem-
that reason, although I was, perhaps, in- bers, every one of whom will be paid a com-
accurate in using the term "legislature," paratively high salary-perhaps not a high
it will be fixed by the house of represen- salary for the services rendered, but a salary
tatives. I said that the number very which, taken in the lump, means a very large
largely must be fixed and controlled by item in the public expenditure every year.
the voice of the house of representatives Therefore, in dealing with this matter, we
for the time being ; so that my hon, and must have regard to economy for the sake
learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, and myself, are of our own finances, and also for the sake
brought at once to this issue : He admits of the public fear that this federation will
that there must be some mode of con- be conducted on extravagant lines. I am
trolling the increase in the house of repre- not one of those who say that in any
sentatives; but he says that that should essential matter where the expenditure of
be left to the parliament, and he ignores money is necessary we should consider
altogether the necessity for any such prin- such questions ; but I submit that where
ciple as that the proportion should be we have a choice between a method which
maintained between the senate and the may lead to extravagance, and a method
house of representatives. I cannot under- which will lead to economy, unless there
stand any lion. member who wishes to see is some strong reason to the contrary we
the senate maintain its efficiency, its power, should adopt that method which leads to
its effectiveness in the commonweaith, re- economy. One of the strongest reasons in
fusing to support a proposition which will favour of the proposition which is put for-
keep up a fair ratio between the num- ward now is that it will result in automati-
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
433
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
cally keeping down the expenditure on the nies—that when once we get a house con-
parliamentary institutions of the common- sisting of a certain number of members,
wealth, and will put upon any government whatever may be said to the contrary,
that wishes to increase that expenditure there is necessarily operating a very large
the onus of showing that such increase is amount of vested interests, which con-
absolutely necessary. The question has tinually prevent the question of the reduc-
been asked by some hon. members why tion of members of the house of representa-
this matter has not been left to the parlia- atives from being satisfactorily dealt with.
ment. They would do as has been done in The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The amount pro-
America. The hon, member read an extract vides not for the extension but for the
from Woodrow Wilson, which seems to me reduction of the number!
to be instructive from two points of view. The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: There
In the first place it shows that, whatever is no distinction.
your system is, whether you have a quota The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There is the dis-
of increase—whether it is a quota ascer- tinction !
tained as the bill proposes to ascertain it, The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No, there
or whether it is a fixed quota of 30,000, is not. The hon. member will allow me
as my hon. friend suggests—we must re- to point this out: that if the 50,000 quota
adjust matters every ten years. Every goes on without check or hindrance, as
census we shall probably find that we shall long as that quota remains, the numbers
have to make some readjustment, and I will go on rapidly increasing.
think the periods—at all events the later The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is an
periods my hon. friend quoted from Wood- assuinption !
row Wilson-are nearly all ten-year periods.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I am not
Of course the population of the United dealing with the hon. member's assump-
States increased with enormous rapidity tion. I am dealing with what the facts
during that time. At the same time it was must be—that is to say, that if this 50,000
found necessary to make these revisions is taken as the quota, until you pull it
every ten years, and in the course of these up and introduce another quota, the num-
revisions it is apparent large reductions in bers will go on increasing. Therefore, we
the amount of the quota have been made. must come to a period at which we shall
On the question of economy, which is, of be obliged to interfere with the vested
course, altogether apart from the question rights and interests which would entitle
of principle, to which I have alluded a constituency to more members on the
already, we are met with this position : Is increase in the number of population. Our
itsafe—considering our experience of these experience in these colonies is, that it is a
matters in the Australian colonies—to rery difficult matter to reduce a house, and
leave the matter of the reduction of the for the same reason it would be a difficult
members of the house of representatives to matter to reduce a quota. It may be said
the parliament itself ?
that, as population increases, there should
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is proposed be some way by which the number of mem-
to leave the whole financial question to
bers of the house of representatives may
the parliament !
be increased proportionately. That is
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : What is granted; but I should like to point out
the experience? I know our experience that the analogy of the increase of repre-
in New South Wales is—and I think it is sentatives in our assemblies would be a
the experience of most of the other colo- very misleading one in this case, and for
2 H
434
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
this reason : that where local interests are my speech that which I contended was the
necessarily represented in a parliament, principle which should guide us.
where the expenditure of money in locali- The Hon. E. BARTON : May I say this:
ties is being continually dealt with, it is a that there is no principle in observing a
hardship if those localities are not sufi-
precaution of this kind ? If there is no
ciently represented by numbers in the
reason why the senate should not be one-
house which inaugurates and controls that half of the number of the house of repre-
expenditure. That is admitted ; but if we sentatives, then there is no principle against
look at the functions of the house of repre- making the number of the senate exceed
sentatives, I think we shall find that, the number of the house of representatives.
as far as local interests are concerned, The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: There is
there is not anything like the same neces- a provision, as I have said, for increasing
sity for the representation of localities as the number of members of the house of
there is in the houses of parliament of the representatives. Parliament has the freest
different colonies. If you look down the possible hand in dealing with that ques-
list of subjects dealt with, it will be found
tion; but it must deal with it subject to
that they are all subjects of general appli- what is a vital principle in the constitution
cation. In few instances are they matters of the senate, and that is that its numbers
which deal with particular localities. Cer- should not be unduly reduced.
tainly none of them are matters that would Mr.Symon: Maintaining the proportion!
require an increase in the number of mem- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: As long
bers with anything like the same urgency as the proportion is maintained, that is the
as would be the case with our local houses
only limitation upon parliament in dealing
of parliament. So that the same argument with this question of increased represen-
certainly does not apply in regard to the tation. How do these two principles apply?
increase of the members of the house of re- Under the method proposed by my hon.
presentatives as applies in the case of our friend, at every decennial period—when, I
local houses of parliament. This bill does
suppose, the alteration would have to be
not by any means fix a cast-iron limit upon made an increase would be made in the
the number of members of the house of
number of the members of the house
representatives. The fullest power is given of representatives. That increase would
to increase the number of representatives. take place by increasing the quota and
Exactly the same power is given toincrease the distribution of the number of members
the number of members of the house of re-
through more or less electorates as the case
presentatives as is given to deal with the
might be. Under the proposal contained
house of representatives under the proposal in the bill, when an increase took place,
of my hon. friend, Mr. Isaacs. But there
the only necessity existing in dealing with
is this condition attached to it: that you the matter would be to find out the num-
cannot increase the number of the house of ber of members in the senate necessary to
representatives without also increasing the give the increase in the house of represen-
number of the senate.
tatives, and making provision for that
Mr. HIGGINS: Why should we have that additional number. For instance, suppos-
provision? There is no principle in it!
ing you wished to get an increase of twelve
Another Hon. MEMBER: In clause 28 ! membersin the house of representatives you
The Hön. R. E. O'CONNOR: There is would have, if there were six states, to
no necessity for me to repeat what I said give an additional senator to each state.
before. I explained at the beginning of Having given that additional senator to each
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
435
state, you could add twelve representatives having been increased, there should be no
to the house of representatives. That is a complaint when each state gets an increase
perfectly simple principle. What injustice in the number of its senators.
would there be in that? I come now to a Mr. HIGGINS : What is the object of
question put to me by the hon. and learned increasing the number of senators for each
member, Mr. Wise, upon this point. He state ?
said, “It comes to this, then, that before The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If the
you could increase the number of members hon, member thinks that that is a wrong
of the bouse of representatives, say in the principle, of course he will vote against this
case of a colony largely increased in num- proposal.
bers, you would be obliged to add to the Mr. HIGGINS : There is no reason in in-
number of senators all round. You creasing the number of members of the
might then give to the colony which had senate because of the increase in popula-
increased in numbers additional represen-
tion !
tation."
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: There is
Mr. HIGGINS: And increase the expense! this reason : if you would secure by the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: You very terms of the constitution itself a cer-
would increase the expense, there is no tain proportion of representation in the
question whatever about that. But on senate to the representation in the house
that score, I think that a calculation will of representatives, you must fix it in some
very easily show that the increased expen- way that is unalterable. I admit that you
diture in dealing with the matter in that may do it by providing that wherever there
way would, probably, be nothing like the is an increase in the number of members
increased expenditure in dealing with it of the house of representatives there must
by the other method. What difficulty is be a corresponding increase in the number
there in dealing with the question in that
of members of the senate, and you may
way? It is said that it is an injustice leave it to the parliament to decide what
What injustice ? Surely, if we are going that increase shall be. But surely this is
to adhere to the principle of equal repre- exactly the same thing, only you provide
sentation, whether conceded as a right or for it in an automatic way instead of leav-
made as a concession, there is no reason,
ing it for the consideration of parliament.
according to this constitution, why the I have been also asked by an hon. member
number of members of the senate should whether this difficulty might not arise :
not be increased. They do not represent that wherever an increase has to be made
localities ; they represent the state ; and, in the number of the members of the house
if an increase takes place all round, what of representatives under this system there
reason can there be to complain?
must be a redistribution of seats. That.
The Hon. E. BARTON : The house of re- must take place in any case.
That must
presentatives does not suffer from that! take place in the case of your 50,000 quota;
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No, it in the case of your 50,000 quota, if at the
does not. The house of representatives, end of the ten years' period you find that.
where an increase is necessary by reason
there must be some alteration-that more
of an increase of population, gets the in- members are necessary--then, inasmuch
crease required; the increase in the num- as you have to fit, say, an additional ten
ber of members of the senate is fixed in members into the same space, you must
proportion to the number of members of make a redistribution of the seats. It
the house of representatives, and these,
must be done whichever way you carry it
436
Australia Bill,
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
out; whether you adopt the 50,000, or The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: As I
whether the quota is to be ascertained in pointed out before, if there is any other
the way provided for by the bill, you must way in which you can arrive at this quota
have a redistribution whenever you make more justly, it is open to the parliament to
an alteration in the numbers.
deal with it at the end of forty years. We
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
are dealing with the matter now on the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I will same principle which it appears to me will
come to that by-and-by. I am dealing now be sufficient to enable us to deal with the
with the redistribution, and I say that question at any period, whether it is forty
whether you have the system provided for or fifty years hence. It comes back to
in the bill, or the 50,000 quota, you must
this: that if you have proportionate re-
have the same difficulty in redistributing presentation, then the hon. member's com-
tlie seats.
plaint must fall to the ground, because the
Mr. SYNON: In some form or other ! quota fixes the number of the house, and
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes, how- the quota will be in accordance with the
ever you fix the quota. The right hon. population. In regard to redistribution,
member, Sir George Turner, asks me how exactly the same consequences follow,
I deal with the difficulty as to the decrease whether you adopt this method or some
in the number of members of the house of
other method of ascertaining the quota.
representatives? If we are to adopt the I have thought it necessary to occupy
principle of proportionate representation,
some little time in explaining the matter,
which I presume is the principle em- because it appears to ine that if the thing
bedded in the constitution of the house of is really understood there is no difficulty
representatives, surely no colony can com- in the working of the system, and there are
plain if, because its population diminishes, no objections in regard to the inconveni-
its representation diminishes proportion- ence of its working which apply to this
ately.
more than to any other system of dealing
Mr. WISE : They will complain all the
with the increase in the number of mem-
same!
bers in the house of representatives; and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The it has this to recommend it: that by the
population will be increased and the num- automatic working of this provision it
ber of members decreased !
enforces economy in the administration of
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: With all our parliamentary expenditure, and it
respect to the hon. and learned member I secures in the constitution itself one of the
say the quota is fixed, and however you fix highest guarantees for the ability, power,
it, if that quota is decided by the popula- and effectiveness of the senate.
tion, there must be the same relative pro- Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales) -
portion between the representation and the [8:8]: At first when the hon. and learned
population, and this is provided for in the member proposed this mode of dealing with
bill at the beginning.
this matter I was rather inclined to favour
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Can the hon. it, but after a certain amount of reflection
and learned member tell us by his figures I am inclined to believe that it bristles with
what the quota will be forty years' hence? difficulties. The best thing is to analyse
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I have exactly the characteristics of representa-
not made a calculation.
tion in the senate and the representation of
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I can tell you; the house of representatives. As far as the
it will be 310,000!
senate is concerned it matters very little
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonu'calth of
437
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
ור
whether you have two, four, six, or eight. It ment the arrangement of this matter in
represents the state, as I think the hon. and . the years to come. Let us take the case
learned member, Dr. Quick, said, in its of the United States of America, and see
corporate capacity ; but the object of re- the principle npon which they act. I take
presentation in the house of representa- it that, when there were 20,000,000 of
tives is to ascertain the actual opinion people in that country, they took for
of the people of the country. That may granted that a certain number of men was
be got at by a variety of ways. It is a fair quota for the representation of that
possible that in some instances it could population ; when they got to 40,000,000
not be got at by constituencies of 50,000, of population, they considered that a larger
60,000, 70,000, or 100,000 people, and number was a fair quota, and so on, until
after all what we want to get in that at the present time I think the represen-
great popular house is, the representation tation is about 350 representatives for
of all interests combined. It seems to 70,000,000 of people. There you have an
me that we have to look very far ahead elastic system, by which you can use com-
in considering a question like this.' I can mon-sense, and you can bring common-
imagine a case of this kind. We will take sense to bear upon your arrangements.
for granted that the population of this But I can conceive that, in this country,
colony has grown to 10,000,000. We will you might want a large assembly when,
even take it for granted that the states practically, a small senate would be suffi-
have been doubled in number. That is to cient for all purposes. I quite realise the
say, that there are twelve states instead of argument that, if you do not have a fair pro-
six, including Queensland, of course. That portion between the senate and the house
would give seventy-two members for the of representatives, you may, to a certain ex-
senate. But it does not follow that, because tent, lower the dignity of the senate. But on
seventy-two would be a fair representation the other hand you cannot increase or
for the senate, 150 with 10,000,000 of determine the number of members of the
people would be a fair representation in the house of representatives without the con-
house of assembly. You must recollect, as I sent of the senate, and the senate can very
said, that what you want is to get at the real well take care of its own dignity. As the
opinion of the country. You might find number of the house of representatives is
that by these large overgrown electorates increased, the senate will say,
it would be impossible to get by popular want to increase the number beyond a
vote the real opinion of the country. After certain limit, you must increase our num-
a certain amount of reflection on this bers so as to be commensurate as a matter
matter, I have come to the conclusion of dignity.” What I object to distinctly
that there is absolutely no analogy between is this hard and fast principle, which may
the representation of the senate and the become outrun by the conditions of the
representation of the house of assembly, future. I can imagine, to put it in an
and as on another matter to which we extreme way, that the population of this
referred to-day, I fear that the introduc- country might reach 70,000,000, which is
tion of any rigid system affecting matters the population of the United States of
in the future which nobody can foresee America at the present time. Would any-
may lead to incalculable trouble. There- body attempt to say that under those con-
fore, it seems to me that it would be ditions you would have to maintain ex-
better to adopt a system which would actly a ratio of two to one between the
leave in the hands of the federal parlia- senate and the house of representatives ?
" If you
1
438
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
Mr. WISE: There would be one represen- during the whole of the proceedings of
tative to every million of people in that case! this Convention, have shown themselves
Mr. MCMILLAN: It would be abso- anxious to secure the effectiveness of the
lutely impossible to carry out representa- senate at any price. At various stages of
tive government for that popular branch our proceedings my hon. and learned
of the legislature, as we understand repre- friend, Mr. O'Connor, and others, have
sentative government. I quite agree that advocated the adoption of the compromise
it is a good thing to put some check upon which originated in the year 1891, by
any inordinate number in the house of re- which equal representation in the senate,
presentatives; but I think it is a mistake, and various other provisions which have
while trying to secure that principle, to been embodied in the draft bill framed
bring in an automatic rule which may lead in Adelaide were conceded ; · but with
to great trouble in the future. Therefore, an addition which has tended rather to
although I was at first inclined to favour strengthen the advocates of equal state
the provision proposed by the hon, men- rights, while the provision which the hon.
ber, I can see that in the growth of these and learned member has inserted has de-
colonies, and under the various conditions rogated from the dignity and detracted
of the future, it might lead to a great from the efficiency of the house of repre-
amount of trouble. It would be better to sentatives. Therefore, when we are asked
fix the quota now at what is reasonable to abide by the compromise arrived at
under present circumstances, and leave years ago, it is just as well to ask the re-
it to the good sense of the federal par- presentatives of the smaller states to stand
liament, which will have the check of by the bill which was drafted in 1891.
the senate upon its deliberations, to deal That is practically the proposal of the Vic-
finally with the matter. Furthermore, torian and the New South Wales legisla-
a practical matter it would be very tures. In the New South Wales legisla-
much against the feeling and the sense of ture there was not a solitary advocate of
these different states to find the continual these quota provisions. There was not
process of reduction going on which this even a call for a division upon the ques-
hard and fast rule might bring about. tion. With wonderful unanimity these
You might have a certain state having provisions were negatived. First of all,
continually to reduce the number of its the hon. and learned member says that the
representatives, and that would be a very quota will result in economy ; next, that
sore point with such state. Therefore, it it will result in greater efficiency; and
seems to me that what we have to do now lastly, that it will be difficult without some
is to fix what in the present circumstances automatic arrangement of the kind to get
is a fair proportion between the two parliament to alter its representation. In
houses, and leave it to the federal parlia- the first place, the hon, and learned
ment in the future to decide what shall be 'member knows, and he has well pointed
the numerical strength of each house when out, that the one drastic provision of
the time comes.
this clause is that which provides that
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New the house of representatives shall, as
South Wales) [8:15]: I fear very much nearly as possible, contain twice the num-
any appeal which is made to secure the ber of members forming the senate; a
greater effectiveness of the senate, because hard and fast rule which parliament itself
an appeal of that character is very likely cannot alter, and which, if it is found to
to carry with it the support of those who, be irksome, can only be altered by the
as
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
439
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
cumbersome machinery which has to be increased 1 per cent., yet they would be
set in inotion to secure an amendment of entitled to add to their representation
the constitution. Let us consider how this between them probably about twenty addi-
rule would work out practically. Under
tional members in the house of represen-
the enabling act federation may be accom- tatives. This automatic arrangement will
plished if the legislatures of three states, give increased representation to colonies
the people of which have approved of the already properly represented, because an-
draft bill, present their addresses to the other colony comes into the federation and
Queen. Suppose that the three colonies increases the number of the senate.
federating are New South Wales, Victoria, The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Without
and South Australia, whose united popu- any regard to the increase of population at
lation would be more than three-fourths all?
of the total population of Australia. They The Hon. J. H.CARRUTHLRS: Yes;
would begin their national career with it ignores all reasonable representation.
eighteen senators and a house of represen- Can anyone say that states can be governed
tatives composed of thirty-six members. by a simple rule of mathematics? Are
Common-senseshows thata number sosmall you to have a rule in proportion or some
as that would create the belief in the minds other rule in division coming in, governing
of the people that the reins of government the powers of the states, and adding to
were falling into the hands of a clique. the representation of a colony, which is,
The Hon. S. FRASER : The proportionate perhaps, already quite satisfied with its
representation would be greater than that representation, a large number of repre-
in the United Kingdom now !
sentatives, because some colony hundreds
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I of miles away has chosen to join your fed-
believe that there is safety in numbers, eration? More than that, besides intro-
especially in matters of government. You ducing this anomaly which I have already
may fix the limit so small as to lose the pointed out, you at once cause a neces-
security which comes from numbers; sity for a readjustment of your whole elec-
though, on the other hand, I am quite open toral system in order to comply with the
to conviction on the point that you may terms of the constitution, or else you must
have so many as to make the machinery be prepared to persist under an illegality.
costly and unworkable. I will now put We know very well how people complain
another point to my hon. and learned of the doings of moribund parliaments.
friend. I dare say he has not contem- How much more rightly will they com-
plated an aspect of the case which was plain of a parliament which does not act
vividly pourtrayed in the New South according to its constitution ? Therefore I
Wales Assembly. After the commonwealth take it that there will be a necessity im-
is established with this small number of mediately after more states join, to dis-
senators and members of the house of solve parliament, and have a readjustment
representatives, Queensland may be sub- of the constitution. It is possible none of
divided and come in as three states. these rules or principles will satisfactorily
That would mean the addition of eighteen govern the representation of the people;
senators, and thirty-six members of the and more than that, they are apt to pro-
house of representatives to the federal duce anomalies of a most glaring character.
parliament. The population of New South Now I come back to the point about cheap-
Wales may not have increased i per ness. I hope my hon. friend will not com-
cent., or that of Victoria may not have plain if I say there are many parts of the
440
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
bill rospecting which he is not so strong existing states, yet these quota provisions
an advocate of cheapness. Where it is are applicable to senators who come from
necessary to have a strong bench and a all states, and they will not come from the
number of judges, the argument of cheap concession of the principle of equal repre-
ness is not to apply. Here, where we have sentation, because a number of them will
the question of the representation in the be there on such representation as parlia-
senate involved, the people, on the point of ment may concede to them, no more and
economy, are not to be trusted. They have no less. I hope that this Convention will
to pay for their members, and the proposal agree to revert to the provision in the
of the local legislature is simply that the draft bill of 1891. I can assure hon. mem-
number of representatives shall be so many bers that in this colony the people will find,
for 50,000 people. Surely the people can be and will give evidence, that they are find-
trusted to govern themselves in this way. ing it rather difficult to swallow the con-
If they find the cost of the machinery is too stitution as we are proposing it. Add no
much, they will puċ the question to the greater difficulties than may be necessary.
candidates on the hustings whether they I take it that the more you diminish the
are in favour of continuing this. The power of that house in which the people are
people have in their own hands the re- predominant, the more distasteful you will
form of the representation. They can be make the constitution to them. Having
trusted to see that a reform will be secured your point with regard to equal
carried out. I am a sufficient believer in representation in the senate, I think it is
federation to be prepared to trust the only fair, unless there is any great prin-
people, especially in a small matter of this ciple of a vital character which was not
character, and especially when there is apparent in 1891, to allow us to revert to
this incentive to action on their own part, the compromise of 1891 in this respect,
that they will feel the necessity of a change and secure the dignity and effectiveness of
in their pockets. That is the best argu- the house of representatives.
ment to impel people towards reform. I Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania) [8:27]: The
am not so anxious as the hon, member to hon menaber, Mr. McMillan, said-and I
have this effective senate. I would remind am very sorry indeed that the smaller
him of the words he used thrice in his states should lose his advocacy on this
speech that we had conceded the principle occasion--that there was no principle in-
of equal representation of the states in the volved, and that there was no reason why
senate. He rightly directed our attention there should be a proportion between the
to that in a speech which I admired very number of members in the senate and the
much. This afternoon the hon. member number of members in the house of repre-
was loud in his declaration that we, having sentatives. I believe niy hon. friend, Mr.
conceded this to the existing colonies, were Higgins, has interjected somewhat to the
not prepared to concede it to new states; same effect. I well remember when we
but the hon. member here based his re- were sitting on the Judiciary Committee
marks on the assumption that we are going that my hon. friend, Mr. Higgins
to concede equal representation to the new An FION. MEMBER: Do not tell tales
states which will come in. The hon. mem- out of school !
ber's arguments to-night are based, accord- Mr. CLARKE: As I do not want to
ing to his own expression, on conceding tell any tales out of school, I will not
this principle of equal representation. But mention the name of Mr. Higgins. I do not
he knows that he is only conceding that to want to nail any one's ears to the pump.
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
441
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
An Hon. MEMBER : Anyone can tell Mr. CLARKE: It is only to an altera-
that the hon. member is an Irishman ! tion of that principle that you will require
Mr. CLARKE: I well remember that the consent of the senate. If there is any
a number of hon. members on that com- principle involved in the relative strength
mittee urged with reference to the consti- of any high court in the colonies and the
tution of the judiciary that the federal federal high court, the very same principle
high court ought to be stronger than any
is involved in preserving some propor-
high court in any of the colonies for the
pur- tion between the number of members in
pose of preserving its strength and its pres- the senate and the number of members
tige, and that principle had the thorough in the house of representatives. If the
support of my hon. friend, Mr. Peacock. If senate is a very small body, and the house
there is any principle involved here, if there of representatives is a very large body,
is any virtue in keeping up the prestige in my humble opinion, the senate will
and the strength of such a body, I think if be overawed by the house of representa-
you grant the right of an equal representa- tives, and I think we ought to avoid
tion of the existing states in the senate, we that as much as possible. My hon. friend,
ought to preserve the prestige and the Mr. Isaacs, said that we ought to make
strength of the senate, and we cannot do the representation in the house of repre-
that if, after laying down that each state sentatives according to population. We
shall be entitled to six members in the do that if we follow the principle of the
senate, the house of representatives shall quota that has been suggested by the hon.
increase from time to time according as member, Mr. O'Connor. I assent entirely
the population may increase without any to the principle he has suggested, and I
regard whatever to the number of members think the Committee ought to be thankful
in the senate.
to him for discovering it. I would like to
Mr. McMILLAN: You cannot do that suggest to my hon. friends from Victoria
without the consent of the senate!
that they ought to go down on their knees
Mr. CLARKE: I beg my hon. friend's and bless the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor,
pardon. If we insert the amendment for discovering this principle ; because, if
which is suggested by some hon. members we accept the figures which were placed
there will be one member in the house before us in Adelaide as in any way ac-
of representatives for every 50,000 of the curate—we can accept them at all events
population, and it will not require the con- as prophecies-the colony of Victoria-
sent of the senate to an increase of the according to the quota supplied by the
number from time to time.
hon. member, Mr. O'Connor-will descend
Mr. MCMILLAN :
from twenty-two members in 1901 to
Mr. CLARKE: I do not think so. I thirteen members in 1941.
think that if we set out in this constitu- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I pointed that
tion that every 50,000 people in the com- out!
monwealth are entitled to one representa-
Mr. CLARKE: I should like to pointout
tive, it will not require the consent of the that if the same ratio continues, in another
senate to increase the number of members fifty years Victoria will be one of the small
of that house. The number will depend colonies, and it will then be thankful to the
simply on the population.
delegates of Tasmania and South Australia
The Hon. R. E. O'Connor: It is only for securing for them the principle of equal
to an alteration of that principle that you representation in the senate, and a mini-
require the consent of the senate !
mum of five in the house of representatives.
442
Australia Bill.
Cominonucealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I suppose that is entitled to thirteen members in 1941
is an argument to get the consent of the out of a house of seventy-two, why should
Victorian people to this extraordinary she ask for more!
scheme !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : She does not,
Mr. CLARKE: It is a very fair scheme. if you restrict the whole number to seventy-
Unfortunately I was not in the Chamber two; but what we say is, that 310,000
when the hon. members, Mr. Barton and persons to one member is too ridiculous a
Mr. Isaacs, delivered their speeches; there-
quota !
fore I am unable to say whether I am Mr. CLARKE: Then the hon. gentle-
mentioning anything new; but I have man objects to the quota being an auto-
gone to the trouble of working out the
matic one.
figures, and I find that Queensland--ac- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Certainly !
cording to what has been stated in the Mr. CLARKE: The strong argument
papers which accompany the suggestions of the Premier of Victoria was, that there
of the hon member, Mr. O'Connor-will was great trouble and inconvenience in in-
rise from eleven members in 1901 to ducing the parliaments to reduce the num-
twenty-four members in 1941; South Aus-
ber of representatives. I think he will
tralia will have seven members in 1901; get over that difficulty if he will adopt the
and, according to the same arithmetic, she suggestion of the hon. member, Mr. O'Con-
will be entitled to two members in 1941, nor; because, if that suggestion is adopted,
but she would then get the minimum of the quota is arrived at in a mathematical
five. Western Australia would be entitled, way, and the federal parliament ascertains
according to arithmetic, to three mem- for the various colonies the number of
bers in 1901, and in 1941 she would be members to which each colony is entitled.
justly entitled to the minimum. Tasmania It would be much easier for each colony to
will descend in the same way as Victoria apportion its districts when it is informed
and South Australia; but she will be always how many members it is to have than it
entitled to the minimum, and that is a would be for the federal parliament to
satisfaction.
reduce the number of its own members.
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : If the hon. But, if Victoria is entitled to thirteen
member keeps on much longer, he will find members, I do not see why she should wish
that there will be no representatives in the to have that number continually increas-
house of representatives at all!
ing. If the numbers are continually in-
Mr. CLARKE: No; if my hon. friend creasing, I would point out this : that,
takes the trouble of reading the section, he if the members of the senate and of the
will find that, according to the proposal of house of representatives are paid £400 a
the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor, the num- year each, the increase will amount to a
ber of members in the house of represen- very large sum in the course of a few
tatives is to be always about the same, years.
namely—it is to be, as nearly as practic- An HON MEMBER : The federal parlia-
able, double the number in the senate. ment will take care of that!
It will remain the same so long as the Mr. CLARKE: My hon. friend from
number of states remains the same. That Victoria suggests that we should leave it to
is the principle, and I think it is a great the federal parliament. If there is any force
principle. I should like to ask the At- in the objection of my hon. and learned
torney-General of Victoria this question: friend, Mr. Isaacs, that the representation
In case Victoria, according to population, of Victoria should increase instead of
[Mr. Clarke.
Commonwealth of
443
[13 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
diminish, it can be got over by section 28, members proportionately than are the other
which allows the federal parliament to in- colonies—that is to say, while the total
crease the number of the house of represen- number of members continues the same,
tatives under the condition that the senate the more progressive colony gets more re-
must also be proportionately enlarged. If presentatives as her increase of population
we leave the matter to the federal parlia- out-distances the average of the rest. And
ment, it will create a great necessity for I think that is a good principle, because
the referendum for the purpose of getting the matter of money is a very important
over deadlocks.
If you adopt the idea of thing to the smaller colonies. I know that
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, it is a very important thing to Tasmania. I
and leave the fixing of the quota to the know that Tasmania would feel indisposed
federal parliament, you may have the house to favour the payment of £400 a year to a
of representatives wanting a larger num- large number of representatives. We want
ber than that to which the senate thinks it to keep the number within bounds; and I
is entitled. The senate, of course, may not
think that both the smaller and the larger
agree, and such a state of affairs would be 'colonies ought to endeavour to do so. I
continually leading to deadlocks. Now, we entirely dissent from the suggestion that
do not want deadlocks from time to time. we should return to the proposal of the
We want to overcome the possibility of the bill of 1891 ; because, according to that
creation of deadlocks in this matter, and, bill, the house of representatives would be
for these reasons, I think we ought to adopt entitled to a number of members equiva-
the automatic principle discovered by my “lent to one for each quota of the population
hon. friend, Mr. O'Connor, because it will -tbat is to say, one for each 30,000 people;
give to the various colonies, from time to the number of the house of representatives
time, the number of members to which would increase according to the population.
they are entitled according to their popu- Under that arrangement, the senate, in-
lation. Now, my hon. friend, Mr. Wise, stead of being a powerful body commanding
asked a question. He said, “Supposing the respect of Australia, would be treated
the population of New South Wales is so to the scorn of members of the house of
much, and that the quota is so much, she representatives whenever it suited that
would be entitled to a particular number
house to create a conflict between the two
of members ; but, if her population in- houses. For these reasons, I think we
creases to the extent of doubling, sho would ought to have some ratio between the num-
be entitled to double the number of mem- ber of members in the two houses, and that
bers.” That is not so; because the num- the suggestion made by the hon. member,
ber to which any colony is entitled can Mr. O'Connor, and which commended itself
only increase in one contingency--that is, to the Convention in Adelaide, should be
the contingency of that particular colony adopted now.
increasing in population at a larger rate The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
than the average of the rest of the colo- South Wales) [8:40]: I must say that it is
nies. If the various colonies start out in rather discouraging to sit and listen for a
1901, and if they travel at the same rate, number of hours to a debate upon this
they will be entitled always to the same matter, feeling that the atmosphere is be-
number of members as they began with. coming more dense as each hour proceeds.
But if one colony increases at a greater rate With very great respect, it seems to me
than the average of the rest of the colonies, that the matter is one which might have
she will be entitled to a greater number of been disposed of in a much shorter time.
444
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(13 SEPT, 1897.]
•
nor.
1
My able friend, Mr. O'Connor, convinced with on the present occasion. Its power
me of the unsoundness of his proposition as a legislative body is infinitely stronger
by the length of time that be took to vin- than the power of the house of representa-
dicate it. I know from experience of my tives, owing to the circumstances that it
hon. and learned friend that when he has is more easily managed. At any rate, I
a good case, no man can put it in fewer suppose that the senate of the Australian
words, or in a shorter space of time than federation will be entirely satisfied if, as a
he can. When I found him speaking half legislative body, it commands as much
an hour on this matter, I looked into it power in the federation as the United
more carefully than I otherwise would States Senate has. Let us get rid entirely
have done, and it seems to me that we of the fallacy which I have mentioned. I
had better at once get rid of the fallacy know that in Adelaide I attached so little
that the influence of a house depends importance to the question of numbers
upon the number of its members. That that I proposed that the number of repre-
is the fallacy which has been running sentatives should be only sixty, one to
through the whole of this debate in sup-, every 60,000 of the population, whilst the
port of this particular proposition of the number of senators should be thirty-six.
hon, and learned member, Mr. O'Con- The Hon. E. BARTON:
It seems to me that so long as the The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No. In
powers are valid, so long as you have great my address at Adelaide I pointed out that
powers, the fewer the number of persons I would be content with a house of repre-
who exercise them, the greater power sentatives consisting of one member to every
those persons will have. I often think 60,000 of the population. I named the
that the despotism of Europe would become number that would give us a house of
infinitely milder if it were administered sixty members, taking Queensland in, while
by twelve despots conjointly instead of by the senate would have thirty-six members ;
one. The force in politics, it seems to me, and I am sure the Committee will gather
is not according to numbers. At the polls from that circumstance the fact I am
it is; but in a deliberative assembly, I perfectly sincere in what I am saying-
often think that the more powerful body
that I do not attach the slightest weight
is that body which, having powers, has the to numbers as affecting the power of a de-
smaller number of men to fritter them away.
liberative body. I attach the significance
Take the Senate of the United States. It to the powers it is capable of wielding,
is based upon an immovable number—two and I think hon. members will see, first of
to each state. That has existed from the all, that their anxiety as to the senate
foundation of the United States, although should be shown by their anxiety as to the
the population has grown from 2,000,000, powers of the senate, and that this ques-
3,000,000, or 5,000,000 to 76,000,000 of tion as to how the number of the senate
human beings. The House of Representa- should compare with the number of mem-
tives now numbers 357 members, as against bers of the house of representatives, is, in
the 90'members of the Senate, and yet there the light of history and the facts of his-
is no more powerful house in the world tory, almost childish. The great incon-
than the Senate of the United States. venience of the provision which we have
The Hon. H. DOBSON : It is a perma-
in the bill before us is that it was really
nent executive !
intended to meet a certain contrivance
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : But which has not been put in the constitution.
surely it has other aspects besides that. The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No!
That is a very limited view to meet one The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Yes!
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
445
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The. Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well, we complicate this matter, which has given
the suggestion comes from the same source. rise to a variety of difficulties in some other
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : There is no countries, by endeavouring to make out a
such object in it!
sort of relationship between the numbers
Mr. WISE : It has assumed altogether a of persons in the two houses ? I submit
new significance this evening!
that the basis in both cases is essentially
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: All I can different—that we complicate the constitu-
say is, that my hon. and learned friend tion very much by this and the succeeding
and at the time I thought very wisely- clauses, and that we should do well to adopt
looked to a possible solution in the meeting the proposed amendment, which comes
together of the two houses, and that went from this colony of New South Wales.
the round of the Convention as one of the To begin with, say, 30,000, the federal par-
possible solutions; and I think I am cor- liament having power to alter that basis.
rect in saying that if, at the time these. An Hon. MEMBER : Why 30,000 ?
words were proposed, it had been clearly The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I take
seen that that method would be entirely the amendment as I see it. I am prepared
discarded, the weight of this proposition to accept any other number. I do not at-
would have been very much less than it was. tach any great importance to the number.
Now we have to look upon the matter I believe that the lower house would be a
quite free from any suggestion of the meet- stronger house if it contained twenty mem-
ing of the two houses, and it must be seen bers than it would be if it contained 100,
at once that the basis of the two houses is because it would hang more closely to-
essentially distinct. What is the basis of gether. However, I do not wish to digress
state representation ? Not representation into a long speech on the matter. I wish
of locality in the state, but the joint repre- to point out that I do not care what the
sentation by six men of the whole state, number of members of the house of repre-
and the national interests of the whole sentatives is so long as it is a reasonably
state. But the basis of the lower house efficient number. Remember that the
is a widely different one. It is a national federal parliament in the proposed amend-
house, and it is a house in which locality ment will have absolute power to adjust
has to be considered, and it is deliberately this thing afterwards. If any alteration is
considered by the arrangement of the elec- proposed that is unfair, the senate may be
torates. Take the arrangement suggested, left to look after that when the time comes.
whether it is 30,000, 40,000, or 50,000, it I object strongly to putting these words in
is essentially a basis of locality, and in no the constitution, because we are doing a
sense similar to that of the senate. Then thing in cast-iron which it might be expe-
comes the only other remark which I wish dient afterwards to alter. The other
The other pro-
to make. Whatever our system may be, posal recommends itself to me because the
surely it should be one of a simple char- ratio will begin, just as we like to make it,
actor—one which is not complicated by on some basis of reason and equity, and the
considerations which should not weigh. matter will be left in such a state that it
Suppose, for instance, that in the process can be altered by the federal parliament
of time the number of senators increased if an alteration is thought necessary.
from six to twelve, immediately there must Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [8.50]:
be an adjustment of the basis of represen- I was very pleased to hear the speech of
tation in the lower house, without the my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, because I
slightest rhyme or reason. Why should think we are fighting over a matter of
446
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.
difference which is of very little conse-
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. gentleman will
quence. If my right hon. friend would find that when they started in America
make a proposal such as he referred to in they had a population of 3,500,000 !
the Adelaide Convention, to make the ratio
Mr. GLYNN: Not the thirteen states,
one member to 60,000, I would not be in- However, the position will be this, as far
disposed to support him ; but I am going
as the ratio is concerned : that if an alter-
to support the bill as it stands, because ation had not been made, those thirteen
the alternative to follow the rejection of
states in America would now have in the
the words in the clause would be the inser- House of Representatives 800 members ;
tion of the proportion of 1 to 30,000.
whereas for the whole of the 63,000,000
An Hon. MEMBER: 1 to 50,000 ! of population there is only a representa-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I pro-
tion of 329 members, according to the
pose to ask permission to alter the 30,000 latest statistics. If you took the popula-
to 50,000!
tion of Australia in 1894, keeping this
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I will ratio up, you would have a number of
support 50,000!
members in the house of representatives
Mr. WISE : So will I!
not quite one-fourth of the total number
Mr. GLYNN: I intend to make a sug- of the members in the House of Repre-
gestion myself as to what the proportion sentatives of America, although the popu-
should be. I have run out a few figures lation of America is twenty times greater
with the object of reducing the house of
than ours.
The suggestion I would make
representatives to a reasonable number of is this-and, of course, I only throw it out
members, and to keep up what ought to
for consideration, that we might start
be the proportion which should exist. A with eight members as a minimum for,
good deal has been said about the difficulty say, the first 100,000 of the population,
of toning down this ratio of 1 to 30,000
and then there would be one member for
to start with. There were exceptional rea- every 100,000 afterwards, or for every
sons in the case of America for making fraction of 100,000 over 25,000; and,
rapid changes in the quota. There was an according to the population in 1894, as
exceedingly rapid increase in the popula- given in Mr. Coghlan's statement, that
tion for the first thirty or thirty-five years ;
would work out in this way: There would
and when once they did adopt the prin- be a house of representatives of 67 mem-
ciple of having a recasting of the quota bers, of which New South Wales would
every ten years, they adhered to it; but have 19, Victoria 19, South Australia 11,
without such a rapid increase of popula- Western Australia 9, and Tasmania 9.
tion in Australia we shall find it more The Right Hon. G. H.. REID :
difficult to change the ratio from 1 to
Mr. GLYNN : You cannot possibly get
30,000 to 1 to 60,000 than they did in anything that would determine it with
America. If we stick to the ratio of 1 to
mathematical accuracy.
30,000, the position will be this: They The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You are
started in America with a ratio of 1 to taking a larger representation !
30,000; there were then thirteen states Mr. GLYNN: No doubt. That is my
with a population of 2,000,000; if the
intention. You do not, even under the con-
change had not been made, those thirteen , stitution, carry out the ratio of population
states, which have now a population of with the strictest accuracy. You find in
24,000,000, would be entitled in the house some of the other colonies--for instance,
of representatives to 800 members. in South Australia—that in some elector-
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
447
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ates 2,000 people return two members, dorse that recommendation, and, as a re.
while in others 15,000 people return only presentative of another colony, would, in
the same number of members. Under the strongest possible manner, urge it
federation or pure consolidation you can- upon the members of the Committee. We
not carry out any absolute strictness of have had figures put before the public of
principle in regard to representation. Australia which, be they right or wrong
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : But hav- and I believe they are wrong—will be ac-
ing equal representation in the senate cepted by the enemies of federation as
why should you work up to equal repre- expressive of the truth.
expressive of the truth. These figures
sentation in the house of representatives? and they come, I believe, from New South
Mr. GLYNN: It would not work up in Wales—show, or purport to show, that
that way. According to all reasonable in a very short time, in the lifetime of
probabilities, any large increase would take
many now living, the representation of
place in Victoria and New South Wales. Victoria, if the proposal in the bill be
South Australia has a large area of terri- adopted, would be reduced from twenty-
tory, but a small population, and, with the six to thirteen members. I ask hon.
exception of 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 acres, members who are in the habit of dealing
the greater part of her land is pastoral with representative bodies whether they
country; so that there is a very small could go back and ask their people to ac-
chance of a large increase of population in cept a proposal which, whether it be theo-
South Australia, and, with a few qualifi- retically right or wrong would, if these
cations, the same thing might be said of figures are correct, inevitably involve them
Tasmania. The resources of New South in a loss of influence in the common-
Wales and Victoria, however, are bound- wealth?
less; they will respond with far greater An Hon. MEMBER : We do not accept
rapidity to the call of human industry, and the figures !
there is not the slightest doubt that they Mr. WISE: I agree that the figures
will be able to support a very large popula. may be doubtful; but they were accepted
tion. In the case of Western Australia
you
at Adelaide.
must measure its possibilities, not by its An Hon. MEMBER : No!
mineral resources, but by its general agri- Mr. WISE: They were accepted by
cultural and pastoral resources.
If there many at Adelaide, and we have to meet a
were any likelihood of the Convention strong and influential, if not very large,
adopting the amendment, I would vote for body of opponents of federation in every
the insertion of these words; but other colony. If it is true, as I believe it is,
wise I will vote for the bill as it stands. that the proposals put forward are only
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [8.56]: alternatives of convenience in which there
This matter has assumed, to me at all is no principle involved—and I under-
events, a different significance from that stood the hon. and learned member, Mr.
which it had when we were at Adelaide, O'Connor, to say that this was not a ques-
I am not going to enter into the arith- tion of principle
metical argument used in favour of the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : On the con-
amendment; but I will make an appeal trary, I pointed out that it rested upon
to the Committee. The hon. and learned principle !
member, Mr. Isaacs, has asked us, as a Mr. WISE : It is a principle of con-
matter of practical politics, to reject the venience rather than one underlying the
proposal which stands in the bill. I in- main provisions of the bill.
448
Australicu Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
•
quota !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The hon. The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The same
and learned member accepts the principle remark applies to one member for 50,000.
that the house of representatives should Unless the local legislatures are reduced
contain twice the number of members con- that number will be altogether too large.
tained in the senate!
Hon. members should look at what has
Mr. WISE: Will it not be better to
been done in other countries when they
adopt a proposal such as that put forward make proposals of this kind. In the United
by the right hon. member, and fix upon,
States of America in 1897, with a popula-
say, 50,000 as a quota ? That would give a
tion of 62,522,250, the representation in
the Senate is one member for 694,691
two to one representation.
The Right Hon. G. H. Reid: Exactly! people
. Coming to the House of Repre-
An Hon. MEMBER: That is the present giving one member for 173,901 persons.
sentatives, we find there are 357 members,
That is rather more than three times what
Mr. WISE : I believe that the quota in
is proposed here.
the bill is 51,000. I appeal to members of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID:
the Committee if it is worth while to run
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Will any
the risk of exciting popular feeling in Vic-
hon, member attempt to argue that it is
toria against this proposal? I am bound
necessary for the efficient governing of the
to say that those who, for the purpose of federation that we should have an enorm-
exciting popular feeling against federation, ous number of members ? They will only
would urge that there is something behind be in each other's way. When we bear in
this proposal, that there is some conspiracy mind that for five or six years there will
on the part of those who wish to make the be very little for this federal parliament
senate strong at the expense of the assem- to do, we should start on as economical
bly, may find some justification in some of and as efficient a basis as we possibly can.
the speeches which we have heard this Will it be economical and efficient to start
evening. I therefore appeal to the Com- with one member to 30,000 people? That
mittee whether it is worth while upon a has been the proposal, and it is only be-
matter which, after all, is only one of cause its ridiculous character has been
practical convenience, to take a step wbich demonstrated that hon. members have
will give rise to misconception, and, per- gone back to one for 50,000.
haps, prevent the consummation of what The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I pro-
we all desire, the union of Australia. posed that in my first speech in Adelaide!
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria) The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I have
[9.1]: Hon. members must have forgotten every confidence in the hon. member. I
the circumstance that there are in Aus- am sure he is willing to do what is fair
tralia at present very large legislatures and reasonable ; but it is monstrous for
If this proposal is carried out the question hon. members to advocate this large as-
will be what we are to do with the local sembly. Do not hon, members know well
legislatures, and how are we to reduce what our experience has been in Australia,
their numbers. It is idle to talk of a pro- namely, that these large houses do not work
portion of one member to 30,000 people; well? What has been the case in Victoria?
it is preposterous. The federal parliament At the last election there was a direct
cannot afford any such proposal.
mandate to the Government to reduce the
Mr. WISE : The proposal is one member number of members in the Assembly, but
for 50,000 people; that is virtually the the Government were afraid to take up the
proposal in the bill !
challenge. I am speaking advisedly.
[Mr. Wise.
Commonuealth of
449
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australic Bill.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I and I am prepared to support that prin-
brought in a bill to reduce the number in ciple. I think it would be a good solution
both houses !
of the difficulty.
The Hon. Sir W, A ZEAL: But the hon. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
member knew very well that he was bring- Australia) [97]: I think that, after the
ingin a bill which also affected a house which last speech, we had better keep the clause
had the entire confidence of the people. as it is. My hon. friend, Sir William Zeal,
The Right Hon. Sir G. Torner: No!
need not be a bit anxious about the imme-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I say that
diate effect on the economy of the federa-
advisedly. The right hon.gentleman knows
tion. He has pointed out the pernicious
quite well that he and his friends in the effect of having too large a lower house.
Assembly are continually trying to find The difficulty, once it is established, is to
fault with the Council in order to keep in
reduce the number.
power.
An Hon. MEMBER: You cannot do it!
The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. member The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is
think that that has anything to do with impossible to do it.
.this clause?
An Hon. MEMBER :
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Not much. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
sir; but I hope you will forgive me for thought the hon. member, Sir William
trespassing, seeing that this question was Zeal, opposed the clause as it stands,
brought up by the interjection of the The Right 'Hon. G. H. REID : Yes !
Premier.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member should thought so ; and I am using an argument
take no notice of the Premier's interjection. he applied from the stores of his experi-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I think it ence, which I value—that we ought to
is our duty to start this federal parliament prevent any inducement to the people to
on an economical and businesslike basis. return too many members to the lower
Do hon. members believe there is
any
vir- house. There is not a colony in Austral-
tue in numbers? Do they believe that if
asia which is not suffering from an exces-
we have a house of 120 members, those
sive number of members in its house of
members will carry on the business of the assembly. There is not a single house that
federation any better than a house of sixty
would not like to reduce its number if it
or seventy members ? The reverse is the had a chance; and there is not a single
fact. A small body of men, at all events
house that is able to do it; and, with these
for the next ten years, will be all that
awful warnings before us, if we can, by
Australia will require. I would be pre-
some perfectly harmless and innocent pro-
pared to accept the proposal of my right
vision--because that is what my right
hon. friend, Sir George Turner, to have
hon. friend, Mr. Reid, says it is—prevent
one member for every 50,000 persons.
that which is a public scandal and public
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You nuisance, which we will have to accept, if
would increase the number of representa-
once established, to all eternity, then it
tives without rhyme or reason if there
should be, not merely our duty, but our
was a larger number of states !
pride to do it.
The Hon. Sir. W. A. ZEAL: We do The Right Hon. G. H. Reid : There is
not want any large number. I am quite no land-tax in this !
sure that one member for every 50,000
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
persons will be a very adequate number, follow my hon. friend. I agree with his
2 1
450
wéustralia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
arguments, but I absolutely dissent from the Constitutional Committee, was dis-
his conclusions. I arrive at the same cussed at length in the Convention, had
result as he does, that it would be well the hearty approval of the right hon.
that we should provide checks against member, and it is only now that he has
having too many members in the house of heard the reasons for the acceptance of the
representatives; but, apart from the per proposal, reiterated with great force and
suasion which my hon. friend has uncon- effect, that he says he has arrived at a
sciously exercised upon me, I listened, if different conclusion. Will he allow me to
he will allow me to say so with all respect, say this? I entirely disagree with him in
with some amusement to the speech of my saying there is no force in numbers. Most
right hon. friend, Mr. Reid. He was a of us who have been in a position of autho-
member of the Constitutional Committee rity agree that it would be very conveni-
which devised this scheme. He, except ent that one man should rule, and if we
during the times when he was called away could get everyone else to come to the
to discuss finance
same conclusion, the business of govern-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I was on ment would be much simplified, and the
the Finance Committee when you were advantage to the public would be enormous.
doing this !
But the mischief is that we cannot get
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The them to do that. To carry my right hon.
right hon. gentleman was often with us. friend's argument to its legitimate conclu-
We had the advantage of bis constant sion, what do we want six representing
attention in the House when the matter
the senate in each colony? One will do.
was being discussed.
We should have the advantage of perfect
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Not this ! unanimity in that gentleman, unless he was
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We one who could not make up his mind. What
never thought of the Norwegian scheme do we want to increase the number for ?
from the beginning to the end, and it was If we have two, it might create division of
was never mentioned as a reason for our opinion, and just in proportion as we make
conclusions.
the number more, we increase the differ-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID:
ences which will arise. If we keep up the
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It was number—if by the legitimate evolution of
never proposed and seconded nor suggested events we keep it up progressively-we
that the keeping up the numerical relations might have a number which might fritter
of the two houses was for the purpose of away largely the immense authority of the
bringing about the Norwegian scheme. senate.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It was dis- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Have the
tributed !
numbers any necessary connection!
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It was The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
distributed, and I spent a week over it! think they have a good deal. Supposing
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If my we have a house of 30 members resisting,
right hon. friend had been listening to and trying, as it would be said, to dominate
the constant debates at which he was a house of 200 or 600 members, we should
always present in the House, I am quite have a vebement outcry sounding through-
sure he would have arrived at a conclu- out the land; we should have constant
sion different from that which his private attacks both in newspapers and in every
studies seem to have conducted. This was shape or form in which attacks could be
arrived at after much consideration by made. I say that a solid phalanx does have
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Conimorwealth of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
451
an effect; that mere manhood, sympathy, turned to the other house, and all that is
influence, and force have an effect; and provided is that the number shall be two
it is useless to talk in the way in which to one. It is only an increase in popula-
the right hon. member talked—I hope with tion, and not a subdivision of states, that
not much earnestness-that numbers are will produce any substantial increase in the
of no consequence, and that the whole number of members.
point is authority. I admit we must have The Right Hon. G. H. REID : But you
the power, or the numbers will be use- make it absolutely compulsory that if you
less; but given the numbers, and you get have an increase of twelve senators, you
your power to exercise the authority - must have an increase of twenty-four
strong in one way though it may be members in the house of representatives.
weakened in another. We truly enough The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Why
produce the differences of opinion that will not?
come from the association together of a The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Because
number instead of a few ; but in those there is the same population !
very differences we produce strength and
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
confidence; and although there may be a
want to know what is the objection, except
certain amount of weakness in action, there on the score of expense ? You have one
is weakness in the corporate body through house representing the people generally,
the confidence which exists in the whole and a second house representing the states,
largely through numbers. I think this is a An Hon. MEMBER: What is the use of
sound and good provision. We all agree the increase ?
that it should exist at the start. It is The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You would
frained on a basis which the right hon. gen- have to rearrange every constituency in
tleman wants to agree to. Why should the commonwealth !
not it exist in the future ? Do we fear The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
some sudden change in the condition of constantly asked what is the use of doing
the colonies? Do we not think they are all this. It is done with the object of pre-
going to advance-I do not say with equal serving the importance of one house, of
steps, but with something like an even preserving its even ratio with the other.
degree of progress; and is it necessary that That is the object. If my right hon. friend
we should make these limitations or have still contends, and is right in contending,
these fears which hon.gentlemen entertain? that numbers are of no consequence, and
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Supposing that six men will do as well as sixty men,
a large colony now is subdivided into
well and good ; I retire from the position.
three, and the senate, instead of being six But I entirely disagree with him in think-
becomes eighteen-does the hon. member ing that numbers are of no consequence,
see any necessity from his point of view, and I hope the Convention will adhere to
of adding thirty-six members to the lower that to which it agreed before.
house, the population being exactly the The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New
same as it was before { Would not that be
South Wales) [9.18]: I shall vote for the
an evil from the hon. member's point of amendment, and for two reasons. In the
view ?
first place, I have always thought that, in
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That the Australian colonies, there has been
could not happen, in the first instance. over-representation in proportion to the
That is the answer to that remark. There
population. My next reason is that the
is to be some quota of the numbers re- experience of New South Wales has shown
452
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(13 SEPT., 1897.]
Teller,
us that any attempt to increase the repre-
NOES,
sentation of the constituencies automati- Abbott, Sir Joseph McMillan, W.
cally is an absolute failure. We tried the
Berry, Sir G.
Peacock, A. J.
Brunker, J. N. Quick, Dr. J.
plan here, and we found constituencies ob-
Carruthers, J. H.
Reid, G. H.
taining an increase atevery period at which Fraser, S.
Turner, Sir G.
a census was taken, until finally the num-
Hackett, J. W. Venn, H. W.
ber of members so increased that we had
Higgins, H. B. Zeal, Sir W. A.
Kingston, C. C.
to abolish the system. Now, if the power Leake, G.
Isaacs, I. A.
is given to the commonwealth to deal with
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
this matter, I do not see that there is any
necessity for any other power at all. So
Question --That the paragraph stand
part of the clause-resolved in the affirma-
far as over-representation is concerned, I
tive.
would ask hon, members to compare the
colony of New South Wales with Great
Paragraph 2. Until the Parliament otherwise
provides for the method of determining the num-
Britain. If Great Britain had the same
ber of members for each quota, there shall be one
representation in the House of Commons member for each quota of the people of the state,
in proportion to its population as New
and the quota shall, whenever necessary, be.
South Wales has in its Legislative Assem-
ascertained by dividing the population of the
commonwealth as shown by the latest statistics
bly, it would have over 6,000. members.
of the commonwealth by twice the number of
Now, I do not want to see this over-repre- the members of the senate, and the number of
sentation in the Australian colonies, and,
members to which each state is entitled shall be
therefore, I would like to know the num-
determined by dividing the population of the
state as shown by the latest statistics of the
ber of votes for each representative re- commonwealth by the quota.
turned. Why should we not fix it in the The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
constitution act, and not leave it to any Wales) [9.22]: I desire to make an amend-
precarious system which may be adopted
ment in this paragraph. In the third line,
hereafter ?
the words "for each quota” have crept in.
Question—That the words as nearly I think that those words were not intended
as practicable there shall be two members to be there.
of the house of representatives for every The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Is not
one member of the senate” proposed to be that a matter for the Drafting Committee
omitted stand part of the paragraph-put. to consider ?
The Committee divided :
The Hon: E. BARTON: This is merely
Ayes, 26 ; noes, 17 ; majority, 9.
a verbal amendment, and we might just as
AYES.
well make it ourselves.
Briggs, H.
Henry J.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I could
Brown, N. J.
Holder, F. W.
not make head or tail of the paragraph !
Clarke, M. J.
Howe, J. H.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The words
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. James, W. H.
« number of members for each quota” are
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Dobson, H.
Lewis, N. E.
absurd, for under any circumstances there
Douglas, A.
Mnore, W.
can only be one member for each quota.
Downer, Sir J. W. O'Connor, R. E.
It has been discovered since we met at
Forrest, Sir J.
Solomon, V. L.
Adelaide that these words are a clerical or
Fysh, Sir P. O. Symon, J. H.
typographical error, and we might as well
Glynn, P. M.
Walker, J. T.
strike them out.
Grant, C. H.
Hassell, A. Y.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: So long
Henning, A. H. Barton, E.
as the hon. member is satisfied as to that!
Teller,
[The Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott.
Commonwealth of
453
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am quite of members to which the state is entitled,
satisfied as to it.
I move:
there shall be deducted from the whole
That the words “ for each quota,” line 3, be number of people of the states the num-
omitted,
ber of people of any race not entitled to
Amendment agreed to; paragraph, as vote for the more numerous house of the
amended, agreed to.
parliament of the state. What was in-
Paragraph 3 agreed to.
tended was to exclude from the computation
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
aboriginals, or others who might be expressly
Clause 25. In ascertaining the number of the disqualified by parliamentary enactment,
people of any state, so as to determine the num- but as the words are here, the number of
ber of members to which the state is entitled, people of any race not entitled to vote may
there shall be deducted from the whole number
be interpreted to include females and chil-
of the people of the state the number of the
people of any race not entitled to vote at elec-
dren, as they are not entitled to vote. They
tions for the more numerous house of the par- are people of the race, and it is not a ques-
liament of the state.
tion of their race. It is difficult, I admit,
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council in using these words to say that what you
and Assembly of New South Wales :
mean to exclude is the race, and not the
That the clause be omitted.
mere individuals of the race. I hope that
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South the Drafting Committee, when they meet
Wales) [9.23]: It is nearly half-past 9. to deliberate on the provisions of the bill,
We are not likely to sit more than another may see fit to alter this provision, so as to
hour, and the discussion as to the money remove any ambiguity.
powers which come next will undoubtedly
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
take some time. Therefore, it may be con-
Wales) (9.26] : This was included in the
venient to hon, members if we deal with bill of 1891 in this way :
some minor clauses-machinery clauses
When in any state the people of any race are
that follow—so as not to go into so im-
not entitled by law to vote at elections for the
portant a subject as the money powers more numerous house of the parliament of the
until to-morrow morning. If that is most
state, the representation of that state in the
convenient to hon. members, I propose to
house of representatives shall be reduced in the
proportion which the number of people of that
go on with clauses which, I take it, will race in the state bears to the whole number of
not provoke much discussion.
the people of the state.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New That was conceived to be a rather cumber-
South Wales) (9.24]: It is proposed by some way of stating the matter, and the
the New South Wales legislature to strike clause in this bill is rather a shorter and
out this clause, not because there was any
I do not think it can be
objection to the principle involved in the seriously contended that any court would
clause, but because it was thought that uphold the contention that the use of the
there was some ambiguity in expression. words “people of any race not entitled to
It took me some time to realise the am- vote" applied to women or children. A
biguity, but I think there is an ambiguity, race not entitled to vote is such an alien
and I should like to point it out, so that race as may exist in the community to
the Drafting Committee may recast the whom the state in which they live has not
clause, and put it in such a shape as to do conceded the privilege of voting. There
away with any doubt. It is proposed that may be some objection to the drafting of
in ascertaining the number of people of the clause, but I do not quite see it myself.
any state, so as to determine the number I think the matter is clear enough, but in
clearer way.
7
454
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
accordance with the arrangement we made parliament should override the state parlia-
the other day I would suggest to my hon. ment in regard to the electoral divisions
friend that we should pass the clause. I for the house of representatives ?
have made a note of the suggestion, and
The Hon. E. BARTON : This provision
will bear it in mind.
was well discussed in Adelaide. The object
Clause agreed to.
of the insertion of the words, “ Until the
Clause 26. (Mode of calculating number of parliament otherwise provides ” was to
members.)
meet certain contingencies. The constitu-
The CHAIRMAN : There are two amend- tion does not in itself raise any objection
ments suggested in this clause, but as they to the laws on this subject being made by
refer to matters already decided as to quota the various states. The subject is the
I shall not put them.
making of electoral divisions and the pre-
Clause agreed to.
scribing of the number of members to be
Clauses 27 (Representatives in first par- chosen. That is properly left in the hands
liament), and 28 (Increase of number of of the parliaments of the several states.
house of representatives), agreed to. But there may arise some difficulty of this
sort: Every hon. member of the Convention
Clause 29. Until the parliament otherwise pro-
will remember the history of the "gerry-
vides, the electoral divisions of the several states
for the purpose of returning members of the mander.” This is a reserve power proposed
house of representatives, and the number of to be given to the parliament of the federa-
members to be chosen for each electoral division,
tion, not to be exercised in any ordinary case
shall be determined from time to time by the
parliaments of the several states. Until division
but in case there should happen to be some
each state shall be one electorate,
such state of things as once occurred in the
Amendment suggested by the House of Assembly
United States. It is a reserve power left
of Tasmania :
to the parliament of the federation to see
Omit the words, line 1, "Until the parliament
that the House, which is the most impor-
otherwise provides."
tant of the federal legislature should not
Amendment negatived.
have its efficiency impaired or its repre-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
sentation made, I would not say, corrupt
and Legislative Assembly of Victoria :
but ineffective or improper by any course
Omit the words, “until division each state
that might be taken by a state.
shall be one electorate," lines 7 and 8.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania):
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South It seems to me that the words "until di-
Wales) : This is a provision which was vision each state shall be one electorate"
inserted at the instance of Mr. Carruthers, should be struck out. Otherwise the clause
and I think a very proper one, to meet the will be contradictory. We have already
contingency of the parliament of a state provided that with regard to elections for
not having provided as expected by the the federal parliament each state parlia-
bill. In that case it would not be entitled
ment shall be empowered to make laws for
to representation, unless this mode of
repre- the purpose of carrying out the first elec-
sentation were adopted, until it made some tions. Surely after having provided that, it
law on the subject.
is somewhat contradictory to say that until
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : Do the division is made by the federal parlia-
I understand that the parliament of the ment each state shall vote as one electorate.
commonwealth is to have power under this
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: But suppose no
bill of arranging the electoral divisions in provision is made by the state parliament
the state? Is it proposed that the federal for the holding of the elections?
[The Hon. E. Barton,
Commonwealth of
455
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: I presume which say that in the choosing of members
that provision has already been made. for the house of representatives each elector
Mr. SYMON: No.
will vote only once, so that the federal
Amendment negatived ; clause agreed parliament will be unable to provide that
to.
an elector may have more than one vote
Clause 30. Until the parliament otherwise without infringing the provisions of the
provides, the qualification of electors of members
constitution. This suggested proviso is
of the house of representatives shall be in each
therefore unnecessary, except as a prohi-
state that which is prescribed by the law of the
state as the qualification of electors of the more bition of any amendment of the constitu-
numerous house of the parliament of the state. tion, which, of course, would be ineffective
But in the choosing of such members each elector
because it could be overcome under the
shall vote only once, and if any elector votes
amendment clause. I think that the
more than once he shall be guilty of a inisce-
meanour, and no elector who has at the estab- Legislative Assembly of New South Wales
lishment of the commonwealth, or who after- may rest satisfied that the case has been
wards acquires a right to vote at elections for
met by a previous amendment.
the more numerous house of the parliament of
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
the state, shall, whilst the qualification con-
tinues, be prevented by any law of the common- South Wales) [9:39]: I am rather in
wealth from exercising such right at elections doubt as to whether the provision in the
for the house of representatives.
earlier part of the clause is thoroughly
Amenclinent suggested by the Legislature of
effective. What is intended is that at a
Tasmania :
After "once,” line 8, omit "and if
any
general election each voter shall have one
elector
votes more than once he shall be guilty of a vote, and one vote only. But there is
misdemeanour."
nothing in that provision which prevents
Amendment negatived.
à man being enrolled more than once.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South That is to say, he may be enrolled for one
Wales [9.37]: With regard to the remain- division here and for another division in
der of the clause I take it that it was
another part of the colony. A by-election
intended that the provision for the preser- may take place, and then he may claim a
vation of rights should be made to apply vote in another division, wherein he has
equally to the houses of representatives, and
nerer exercised his vote before, and thus
to the senate, and that that will be borne in be only exercising one vote. What the
mind when the clause is finally dealt with.
Parliament of New South Wales intended
Tho CHAIRMAN: There are two other
to enact was that at any time should a
suggested amendments, one by the As-
law be passed which conferred on a man
sembly of New South Wales, and the other
the right to be enrolled more than once
by the Assembly of Victoria.
as a voter, the former part of the clause
An Hon. MEMBER: The suggestion
should provide that no matter how many
attributed to Victoria is a mistake.
times a man might be enrolled as a voter he:
shall vote only once. But do not hon.mem-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
sembly of New South Wales :
bers see that he may vote at a general elec-
At end of clause add “Provided that the
tion only once, and a fortnight afterwards
parliament may not enact that any elector shall there might be a by-election in an elec-
have more than one vote."
torate for which he is enrolled as a voter,
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South in which he has not voted before. He
Wales) [9.38]: We have to decide whether could go there and claim a vote and be
this amendment is a necessary one. We only voting once, although in the general
have already placed in the clause words election and at the by-election he will be
456
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
any case ?
exercising two votes in respect of two' another election took place, he should not
different constituencies, in both of which be allowed to exercise his vote, although
he may have been enrolled as a voter. It he might be on the roll in another electo-
was said that a man should be enrolled rate. Must an elector always remain
only once, and that he should not have the in one electorate ?
That would very
option of exercising a choice as to where much restrict the individual, because a
he would vote; otherwise during the cur- voter, I suppose, can get transferred from
rency of a parliament he would be exer- one electorate to another under almost any
cising two votes where another man only system of voting. I would be very much
had the right to exercise one vote. That obliged if the hon. member, Mr. Barton,
was a point which was emphasised in the would explain exactly the operation of
local legislature. I submit there is some- this clause. It seems to me that the hon.
thing in the point. This is a safeguard member, Mr. Carruthers, wishes to tie us
ing proposal. I do not say that it is down to something worse than one man
expressed as well as it might have been, one vote.
but I think if the Drafting Committee The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [9.45]:
take notice of this point, and if we let it Is it contended that a man cannot be
go now, it might be framed much better placed on the rolls of two electorates in
afterwards, so as to avoid tautology, with
respect to a general election. My hon. The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: Certainly
friend, seeing the aspect of the case with
he can !
regard to by-elections, will recognise that The Hon. S. FRASER: That is the
a man, voting in this manner at a by-elec- intention of the act.
tion, although only voting once, would
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : No!
have a greater right conceded to him
The Hon. S. FRASER: I understand
than was enjoyed by the bulk of the
that to be so.
electors.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : There
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
(Western Australia) [9:43]: I have not
are many New South Welshmen resident
considered this clause very closely ; but if. in this colony who are on the ratepayers'
there are divisions in the state, and elect-
roll in Victoria.
oral rolls in each district, and electors on
The Hon. S. FRASER: I understand
several of those rolls, is it proposed that
that the intention of the act is that a man
such electors should not be allowed to. cannot be on the rolls of two divisions at
vote except once in the whole state ? one time. I contend that we ought to
An Hon. MEMBER : Yes !
adhere to the principle that a man can
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: vote only once in any case.
That is not the system in force in many of Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [9:46] :
the colonies at present, for instance Vic. There is perhaps a little difficulty about
toria, Western Australia, and Queensland.. this; but the clause, as it stands, I think
It has only recently been in force in New will adequately meet the case.
The point
South Wales. Voters with the necessary which my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, has
qualification were able to vote wherever in view is to prevent a man from voting
they happened to be on the roll. I cannot in two different constitueucies. That is,
follow the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers. from voting in one constituency to-day,
He seemed to urge that if a man exercised and if an election takes place in another
his vote, and if some months afterwards constituency in a month's time
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
457
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
.
The Hon J. H. CARRUTHERS: A by- Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assen-
election !
bly of Victoria :
At end of clause add “Provided also that the
Mr. SYMON: It is clear that he can-
basis of such qualification for the electors of the
not vote in two constituencies at the same
members of the house of representatives shall be
election.
ou the basis of one adult one yote."
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
Mr. SYMON : It is perfectly clear I [9:49]: It is by a mistake that this sug-
think, because it says “in the choosing gested amendment appears in the schedule.
of such members each elector shall vote It was lost in the Legisltiave Assembly by
only once," and no act passed by the 46 to 16 votes. It is not by a mistake
federal parliainent could possibly be made of the Clerk of the Convention that it
to conflict with that provision, or to give appears in the schedule.
the power of voting more than once,
The CHAIRMAN : I will take it on the
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : authority of the Attorney-General of Vic-
Only once in one district !
toria that this is a clerical error.
Mr. SYMON : Only once at each elec- Clause, as amended, agreed to.
tion. The point which my hon. friend,
Clause 31. Until the parliament otherwise
Mr. Carruthers, calls attention to is, that provides, the qualifications of a member of the
a by-election may take place within a short house of representatives shall be as follows:-
time, and then the same person who voted
1. He must be of the full age of twenty-one
in another district at the previous general
years, and must when chosen be an elector
entitled to vote in some state at the election
election may vote at the by-election in of members of the house of representatives,
another constituency. But that is not a or a person qualified to become such elector,
and must have been for three years at the
thing against which we ought to direct
least a resident within the limits of the
any of the provisions of this constitution,
commonwealth as existing at the time when
because that can happen in our colony he is elected :
Suppose, at a general election, a 2. He must be either a natural born subject of
the Queen, or
man votes in a district, if he changes his
à subject of the Queen
naturalised by or under a law of Great
residence, he has to transfer his vote from
Britain and Ireland, or of one of the said
one district to the other. That, I appre- colonies, or of the commonwealth, or of a
hend, is not something which can be sought state, at least five years before he is elected.
to be provided against, because it would The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania)
be grossly unfair. I think perhaps the [9:51]: Before the amendment proposed
better way will be to adopt the suggestion by the legislature of Tasmania to sub-
of my hon. friend, and leave it to the clause 1 is submitted I should like to
Drafting Committee to reconsider the submit to the Drafting Committee, a ques-
phraseology of this clause, with a view, if tion of which I have given one of them
possible, to prevent any loophole by which private notice, and that is whether it is
a man would be enabled to vote twice at not possible under that sub-clause for a
the same election.
female elector of South Australia to be
Amendment negatived.
a candidate and to be elected for either
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South the senate or the house of representatives ?
Wales) [9:48]: I may mention that not- The clause provides that a member of the
withstanding the vote which has taken house of representatives must be of the
place, the whole of my hon. friend's sug- full age of 21 years, and entitled to vote in
gestions will be considered by the Drafting some state at the election of members to
Committee.
the house of representatives, or a person
How
458.
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
qualified to become such elector, and must. that we should adopt the practice of the
have been for three years at the least a United States and make the qualification of
resident within the limits of the common- a member a residential qualification-not a
wealth as existing at the time when he is residential qualification so far as the com-
elected.
monwealth is concerned, but so far as each
The Hon. E. BARTON: Under the clause state is concerned. It is not deemed desir-
it will have to be a “he.'
able, at any rate in Tasmania, that a non-
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: This will be resident should have a qualification. He
an Imperial act, and it will be read in may be qualified as an elector, but by reason
connection with the Imperial statute, which of his residence elsewhere he should not be
provides that where the context does not qualified to be elected. The purpose, there-
imply to the contrary, the “female” will fore, is to secure the practice, I believe, of
be included.
most of the United States of America-
The Hon. E. BARTON: The context does that he must be absolutely resident within
imply to the contrary!
a state as a representative of which he is
The Hon. N. E: LEWIS: I doubt it elected, and I move accordingly.
very much. Females will be able to con- The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
test every electoral district either for the Wales [9.55]: The object of this amend-
senate or house of representatives, not
ment is to secure that the person, to be a
only in South Australia, but right through member of the house of representatives,
Australia— -a state of affairs which is really shall have been resident for three years in
too awful to think of.
the state for which he is chosen before he
Question—That the paragraph, "Until is so chosen. The question was discussed
the parliament otherwise provides the in our former session, and it was decided
qualifications of a member of the house of to adhere to the terms of the bill of 1891
representatives shall be at follows:" stand in this respect that to restrict the right
part of the clause-agreed to
of persons to become members of the
Sub-clause I. He must be of the full age of house of representatives, no matter in
twenty-one years, and must, when chosen, be an what state they might reside, and that if
elector entitled to vote in some state at the the electors chose to fix their choice upon
election of members of the house of representa-
some person not a resident in their own
tives, or a person qualified to become such elector,
and must have been for three years at the least
state, then, so long as that person had
a resident within the limits of the common- been resident for the requisite time in the
wealth as existing at the time when he is elected. commonwealth, the house being a national
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council house, there should be no objection to his
and House of Assembly of Tasmania :
election. I do not see that there is any
After “representatives," line 4, omit to the
end of sub-clause (I); insert"and no person shall
reason to depart from the decision at which
we arrived at in Adelaide.
be capable of being chosen or of sitting or acting
as a representative of any state except he be
Amendment negatived.
and has been for three years a resident of that Sub-clause I agreed to.
state for which he is chosen. The seat of any
Sub-clause II agreed to as follows:
senator or representative shall be declared vacant
on his ceasing to be a resident of that state,
He must be either a natural-born subject of
except during such time as he may be a member
the Queen, or a subject of the Queen naturalised
of the executive government.”
by or under a law of Great Britain and Ireland,
or of one of the said colonies, or of the common-
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) wealth, or of a state, at least five years before
[9:53]: The Legislative Council of Tasmania he is elected.
has suggested, with respect to sub-clause 1, Clause agreed to.
[The Hon. N. E. Lewis.
Commonwealth of
459
[13 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
Clause 32. A member of the senate shall not
be capable of being chosen or of sitting as a
member of the house of representatives.
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) (9.57]:
I desire to move an amendment in this
clause which, I believe, was moved by Mr.
A. I. Clark, of Tasmania.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
[9.58]: I should like to explain to the
Drafting Committee that Mr. Clark pro-
posed to remove this clause from its pre-
sent position, and to place itin, apparently,
its proper position in Part IV–that is,
amongst the provisions relating to both
houses. If we strike out the clause now,
we can ultimately include it on page 10 of
the bill, in Part IV, following sub-clauses
which relate to both houses alike. The
legislature of Tasmania propose to insert
the following clauses to follow clause
44:-
44A. A member of the house of the parlia-
ment of a state shall be incapable of sitting in
either house of the parliament of the common-
wealth.
44B. A member of either house of the parlia-
ment of the commonwealth shall be incapable of
being chosen or of sitting as a member of the
other house of the parliament.
I think the phraseology conveys all that
can be said in connection with the matter.
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is only a ques-
tion of drafting!
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : It is a
question of drafting; and if the hon, and
learned member will make a note of it, it
will obviate the necessity for any discussion
on the point.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
The proposal to which the hon, member
has referred. goes further thar the proposal
in this bill!
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: It is a
provision which we ought to apply to
both houses, and I submit that our proper
course is to strike out the clause now,
and to reconsider it when we come to Part
IV.
The CHAIRMAN : Do I understand that
the hon. member, Mr. Wise, desires to
move an amendment.
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [9:59]:
I do not desire to move an amendment at
this stage; but the question I wish to test
is whether a member of the senate and the
house of representatives should not have
the power to contest an election for a seat
in the house of which he is not a member
without resigning his seat in the house to
which he belongs.
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: He
might be elected without knowing it!
Mr. WISE: I do not wish to press the
matter now. I have not the reports of the
Tasmanian debates before me; but I was
under the impression that an amendment
to this effect had been moved by Mr. A. I.
Clark. I think it is well worthy the atten-
tion of the Committee.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Wales) [10]: It will lead to considerable
complication if the electors of the whole
commonwealth do not understand that
when a person is a member of the senate he
cannot be made a member of the house
of representatives. To place the matter in
this way in the constitution does not impair
the efficiency of the clause, and it is, at
the same time, a clear indication to every
elector as to what is intended.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Would it
not be well to change the position of the
clause ?
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is not a ques-
tion of position !
The CHAIRMAN : I understand that the
hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise, does
not intend to move his amendment.
Mr. WISE: No!
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania)
[10:1]: If this clause is to stand part of
the bill I think it should go further and
provide that a member of the house of
460
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
representatives shall not be capable of as two months seems too much. The pur-
being chosen or sitting as a member of the pose of the suggested amendment, there-
senate.
fore, is to limit the period to thirty con-
Mr. WISE: Do this later on !
secutive sitting days.
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is possible the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Is that
position of the clause will have to be better than two months ?
changed !
An Hon. MEMBER : It might be a longer
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: If you pass this period than two months!
clause you ought to have an alternative
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We
provision in regard to the senate.
should not sit more than about two days
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New a week!
South Wales) (10.2]: I think it would be The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania)
well if this clause were postponed, because [104]: The reason for putting in the words
there is a strong opinion that, if this clause
thirty consecutive sitting days” was to
is retained in the bill, there should be a meet the contingency of a long adjourn-
similar clause with reference to the mem- ment. At the present time our House is
bers of the house of representatives. only adjourned for something like six
The Hon. H. DOBSON : They both come weeks, and if any member of our Legisla-
later !
tive Council had not been present the last
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes. week when there was very little business
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South to do, and if he were not present the week
Wales) (10.3]: I have no objection to the after we go back, when probably also there
postponement of the clause, which will give will be very little business for the Council
us an opportunity to consider the matter. to do, he would be away two consecutive
Clause postponed.
months when, however, there was practi-
Clauses 33 (Election of speaker of the cally nothing requiring his attendance.
house of representatives), 34 (Absence of The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : How could he
speaker provided for), and 35 (Resignation attend if the house was not sitting?
of place in house of representatives), agreed The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: The House
to.
might be sitting; and would you for merely
Clause 36. The place of a member shall be- formal business drag a member to the
come vacant if for two consecutive months of
federal capital—perhaps all the way from
any session of the parliament he, without per-
mission of the house entered on its journals,
Perth or Cape York? There may be an
fails to attend the house.
adjournment of one of the houses.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That does
and Assembly of Tasmanici:
not count !
That after the word " for,” line 2, the words
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: There may
- two consecutive months of " be omitted with
a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "thirty
be no house, or the house may be just
consecutive sitting days in.”
formed to receive messages and adjourn
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) for a long period.
[103]: It is undesirable that a member The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It would
should be permitted to absent himself for not matter in that case !
so long a period as two months. He could The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: The mere
always secure leave of absence, if necessary, fact that the house met would cause the
and to give him power under the constitu- time to run. It is thought that thirty
tion to absent himself for so long a period consecutive sitting days would be a better
Commonwealth of
461
[13 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
arrangement than two consecutive months. the words proposed by the Tasmanian legis-
The thirty consecutive sitting days is lature, but that we insert the words “the
something understood, and no doubt the whole of,” to give the right to a member
attendance or non-attendance of an hon. to absent himself for a whole session, pro-
member would be placed on the records of vided he gets the sanction of parliament.
the house. It would then be apparent Amendment negatived; clause agreed to.
whether he had infringed the provisions Clauses 37 (Issue of new writs) and 38
of the Constitution or not.
(Quorum of house of representatives)
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South agreed to.
Wales) [10.7]: I think it is really splitting
Clause 39. Questions arising in the house of
straws to discuss the proposal to alter this
representatives shall be determined by a ma-
provision. The House will sit three or
jority of votes other than that of the speaker;
four days a week, and thirty consecutive and when the votes are equal the speaker shall
have a casting vote, but otherwise he shall not
sittings will be about ten weeks. If the
vote.
House sits four days a week, thirty con-
The CHAIRMAN : There is an amendment
secutive sitting days will be seven and
suggested in this clause. After the word
a half weeks. I do not think we want to
“shall,” in the third line of the clause, it
put it in that way. If there is any doubt,
is proposed by the Parliament of Victoria
ás my hon. friend says, the Journals of the
to insert the words "except as hereinafter
House will determine the matter; but the
provided,” and to add at the end of the
almanac will determine it, and I think that
clause the words-
is enough.
Provided that in case of a proposed amend-
The Hon. J.H. CARRUTHERS (New ment of the constitution the speaker may vote
South Wales) [108]: I venture to suggest notwithstanding the votes are not equal and in
that the period provided by the bill, as it
such case he shall not have a casting-vote.
stands, and also in the proposed amend- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
ment, is too short. We must not forget [10:10]: The object for which this amend-
that we shall have representatives from ment was introduced was that while pre-
the whole of this vast continent.
serving, under ordinary circumstances, the
may be suddenly called home by sickness very salutary rule that Mr. Speaker should
in his family.
observe an impartial attitude in the house
An Hon. MEMBER : He can get leave! of representatives, yet, when such an ex-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : traordinary occasion arose as a proposed
There have been cases where men have amendment of the constitution, his state
been suddenly called away by sickness, should not be deprived, in case of neces-
and have not made provision of this char- sity, of his vote, but that he should not
'acter, and before they have time to do have a casting vote.
It is not only pos-
anything in the ordinary course of things, sible, but it has actually occurred in the
they may find their seats taken. We shall Victorian Assembly, that a proposed
have men from the northern portion of amendment of the Constitution that was
Western Australia. Accidents might occur, considered by one chamber, at all events,
and having regard to the fact that there to require an absolute majority did not
would be representatives of the whole con- have that absolute majority by one yote.
tinent, we ought to allow a reasonable If Mr. Speaker had been allowed to vote
time. In the parliaments of all the colo- in that case, the vote would have been
nies absence for a session is allowed. I given. It seems a hard case that the state
venture to suggest that we do not insert for which Mr. Speaker is returned should
A man
462
Australia Bill.
Coninzonwealth of
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
be deprived of his rote when the clause of The Hon. E. BARTON: The argument
the Constitution provides that an amend- for this which my hon. and learned friend
ment of the Constitution cannot be car- puts is that the state is not to be disfran-
ried unless it has an absolute majority of
chised. I do not know that it really
the senate and an absolute majority of the
means that the state is disfranchised. The
house of representatives. A proposal might speaker represents an electorate in the
be prevented from actually going to the national assembly in the same way as the
people at all under the referendum provided Speaker in this Legislative Assembly re-
by the bill by reason of the Speaker being presents an electorate in the representa-
in the chair. I think it will be conceded tive and popular chamber. If there is a
by the Convention that in such a case as question of the amendment of the Consti-
that it is not unreasonable to ask that the tution here, or in the lower house of any
Speaker should have an original vote, but one of the parliaments of the colonies, the
not a casting vote. That would preserve speaker is not entitled to any other vote
the usual rule that he is not to inter- than a casting vote. As this is not a
mingle in the debates and vote in the states house, but what might be called, if
House, while laying down the principle it would not offend the susceptibilities of
that, in the case of a proposed amendment some people, a national house, it is rather
of the constitution, an exception should be difficult to suggest a reason for a differen-
made. I, therefore, hope that the Con- tiation between the position of a speaker
vention will agree to the amendment.
in a chamber such as the house of repre-
The Right Hon. Sir G. H. REID: Sup-
sentatives will be, and the position of a
pose that, having an original vote as well speaker in the Legislative Assembly of
as a casting vote, the Speaker's vote makes any separate colony.
the numbers equal ?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Both ought to
have votes !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There would
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not see
not then be an absolute majority !
the reason for it myself. I do not feel
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Wales) (10.13]: Not feeling very strongly
strongly about it, and I should be happy
to be convinced. But, at the present time,
about this matter, I think the difference
between the case of the house of representa-
I do not see any reason why there should
be any difference between the position of
tives and the case of the senate is this; that
speaker in the house of representatives
a similar provision to that which my hon.
in the proposed federation and the position
and learned friend wishes to introduce has
of a speaker in such a house as the House
been made in the case of the senate.
of Assembly in Victoria.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No!
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Our
The Hon. E. BARTON: Well, some-
experience in Victoria has shown the
what similar. The President is to have
necessity for such a provision as that pro-
an original vote and no casting vote.
posed !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No; the Pre- The Hon. E. BARTON: If this de.
sident has a vote in all cases.
pends upon an exception arising out of the
The Hon. E. BARTON: My hon. friend practice in a colonial legislature, then it
is right.
cannot be the correct reason for it to say
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I propose that that a state would be disfranchised in the
an exception should be made in the case of federation; because if it rests on the former
a proposed amendment of the constitution, reason it cannot rest on the latter.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
463
(13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) bers will have to travel from their homes
[10:15]: May I add one word? In the to get to the place of meeting. I think
case of an ordinary house of legislature, if there is a general feeling throughout Aus-
the speaker had the right to vote, it might tralia that the triennial system is rather
bring a law into operation at once ; but in short. Considering that members of the
this case the vote of the speaker will only senate will hold their seats for six years,
allow a matter to go to the people for de- it does not seem unreasonable that mem-
cision. The absolute majority of both bers of the house of representatives should
houses is required, in the first instance, in hold their seats for four years.
order that a proposed amendment of the Amendment negatived; clause agreed to.
constitution may be submitted to the
Clause 41. For the purpose of holding general
people, and therefore it seems hard that elections of members to serve in the house of re.
the fact that the speaker is not allowed to presentatives, the governor-general may cause
writs to be issued by such persons, in such form,
vote should prevent the project from being
and addressed to such returning officers, as he
put before the people.
thinks fit.
The Hon. E. BARTON : Would the hon. The writs shall be issued within ten days from
and learned member provide that where
the expiry of a parliament, or from the procla-
mation of a dissolution,
the votes are equal, the question should
Amendment suggested by the Legislature of
pass in the negative?
T'asmania :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If the votes Line 5. After “The” where first occurring,
were equal there would not be an absolute
line 7, insert" first writs shall be issued within
six months from the date of the establishment of
majority
the commonwealth, and all subsequent."
Amendment negatived.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
The CHAIRMAN: I will not put the other
Wales) (10.19]: It is a question for the
amendment.
Committee whether the amendment is
Clause agreed to.
necessary. The second paragraph of clause
Clause 40. Every house of representatives 6 provides that
shall continue for three years from the day ap-
the parliament shall be called together not later
pointed for the first meeting of the house, and
than six months after the establishment of the
no longer, but may be sooner dissolved by the
commonwealth,
governor-general.
The parliament shall be called together not
Therefore it is already provided that par-
later than thirty days after the day appointed liament shall be called together not less
for the return of the writs for a general election.
than six months after the establishment
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As- of the commonwealth, and as it is obvious
sembly of Western Australia :
that parliament cannot be called together
Line 2, omit “ three,” insert "four."
without the issue of writs the amendment
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST seems unnecessary.
(Western Australia) (10:17]: This amend- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Does not
ment was suggested by the Legislative the hon. member propose to omit the.
Assembly of Western Australia, because it black-letter word in the second paragraph ?
would make the provision of the clause
The Hon. E. BARTON : No. It is pro-
accord with that contained in our own con- posed by a very able gentleman in Tas-
stitution, the members of the Western Aus- mania, Mr. Inglis Clark, to make sure
tralian Legislative Assembly holding their as to the procedure in the case of the
seats for four years. It was also thought first election. But I think it is sufficiently
that three years would be too short a time, provided for.
considering the long distance which nem- Amendment negatived; clause agreed to.
464
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[13 Sept., 1897.]
Clause 42 (Continuance of existing elec- elections, relating to either house, must
tion laws until the parliament otherwise be determined by some authority or power;
provides) agreed to.
and the Parliament of Tasmania con-
sidered it desirable that it should be deter-
Clause 43. Until the parliament otherwise
provides, any question respecting the qualifica- mined by the house to which the election.
tion of a member or a vacancy in the house of related, and that, after the federal high
representatives shall be determined by the house.
court was established, the court should
Amendment suggested by the Legislature of
deal with disputed elections. I think that
Tasmania:
After "representatives," line 4, insert "or
in all the colonies except New South Wales
any question of a disputed election relating to disputed elections are tried by the Supreme
that house."
Court.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS :
[10-22]: This is a question of qualification The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: I think the
and vacancies. How are they to be dealt federal parliament will undoubtedly enact,
with ? How are we to deal with disputed as soon as possible, that disputed elections
elections until parliament otherwise pro- relating to either house of that parliament
vides, so that you shall not have two shall be decided by the federal supreme
powers dealing with these matters ? If court.
we have words in the clause which will The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria)
deal not only with qualifications and [1026] was understood to say that he
vacancies, and also as to disputed elec- thought it was not necessary to make any
tions, we will cover the whole ground. addition to the clause, because each house
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania) would nominate a committee of elections
[10:23]: Clause 50, referred to by the hon. and qualifications, which would decide a
member, does not make any provision for question of disputed election which could
disputed elections. In the first election only be raised by petition.
to the senate and the house of representa-
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania)
tives, it says “until the parliament other- [10:27]: I hope the proposed amendment
wise provides, all questions of disputed will not be rejected without consideration.
elections arising in the senate or the house Suppose some irregularity occurs in con-
of representatives shall be determined by nection with the first elections to the
a federal court, or a court exercising federal house of representatives. It must be quite
jurisdiction." Until the parliament is obvious to every hon. member that it is
assembled, and the federal court is also desirable to have some tribunal to settle
established, and the procedure is laid down, that disputed election, so that when the
there will be no court to deal with dis parliament is called together every repre-
puted elections which may arise in the first sentative can be in his place. A period,
elections that take place.
of course, is allowed for the elections to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : After par- take place before parliament is called to-
liament is constituted it will have power gether, and the object of this amendment
to deal with such cases !
is to provide that, in the case of an irregu-
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS: It will bave larity occurring, there may be an opportu-
power, probably, under the authority con- nity to cure that irregularity, and to pro-
tained in this 43rd section by the first vide for another election before the par-
words, "until the parliament otherwise liament meets. Of course, after the par-
provides.” But until the parliament does liament meets, the federal court will be
otherwise provide, all questions of disputed established, and then clause 50 will come
the
Commonwealth of
465
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
into operation. A certain interval must like it; and we might in clause 50 make a
elapse before the federal court is estab- further amendment that, on the constitu-
lished to deal with a disputed election, tion of the high court by act of the federal
and the only object of this provision is legislature, then questions touching dis-
that the House itself shall deal with the puted elections shall be tried by the federal
matter until the federal court is estab- court.
lished.
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [10-31]:
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South I understand the hon. member will keep in
Wales) [10:29]: I am inclined to be con- view the clear distinction between clauses
verted by what has been urged
43 and 50. The amendment now proposed
Mr. WISE: Allow me to say one word does not keep that in view, but will inter-
first !
fere with further amendments in clause 50.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I speak quite Mr. JAMES : We propose to strike out
subject to conviction. In clause 50 we clause 50 altogether!
have provided that any case of disputed Mr. WISE: I understand that the rea-
election shall be determined by the high son clause 50 was introduced was because
court, or a court exercising federal juris. it was thought that where the rights of the
diction, and, in this clause, we have pro- electors were in any way infringed, or
vided that questions of qualification and
came into question, the matter was one for
vacancies shall be decided by either house the courts. Where it was merely a ques.
itself. That I take to be, on the face of tion of internal discipline-if I may use the
it, a very proper provision ; but there is expression--of Parliament itself to deter-
this difficulty : If we turn to clause 71, mine the qualification of a member who
that provides how the judicial power of the had done anything which, under the stand-
commonwealth shall be vested, we see this
ing orders, or under the constitution, re-
provision :
quired his seat to be declared vacant, that
The high court shall consist of a chief justice, was a matter for the house itself. Where
and so many other justices, not less than four,
the rights and privileges of members were
as the parliament may from time to time pre-
scribe.
affected, it was a matter for the house;
Until an act is passed by the parliament,
but where any conflict arose as to the
claims of any member to represent a par-
constituting the other judges than the
ticular constituency, the matter was one
chief justice, there can be no judge of the
for the court. The amendments moved by
federal high court, except the chief justice.
Tasmania confuse altogether the distinc
That will create a difficulty, because it
tions which were endeavoured to be drawn
may be considered that there is no suffici-
ent tribunal to deal with this matter at
by the framers of the bill.
the time of the meeting of the first parlia-
Mr. JAMES : We propose to strike cut
ment, and at that time a question of dis-
clause 50 altogether!
puted election may arise, so that there The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
would be a hiatus unless we made some
member might amend the amendment by
provision in this clause to meet such a making it apply only to questions of dis-
Inasmuch as it is open to Parlia- puted elections in connection with the first
ment itself to provide how these matters
general election !
are to be tried after the meeting of the Mr. WISE: That would do. Perhaps
first parliament, perhaps it will be better it would be better to leave the Drafting
to adopt this amendment, or something Committee to consider it.
case.
2 K
466 Commonoccult of [13 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
&
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Might I suggest The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: There
that the consideration of the clause be
was one pair!
postponed until we come to clause 50?
The Hon. E. BARTON: Then we had
Hon. MEMBERS : Adjourn !
the vote practically of the whole Conven-
Question—That the consideration of
tion with the exception of four members.
clause 43 be postponed-agreed to.
An Hon. MEMBER: Mr. Deakin is away!
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. E. BARTON: I know that.
Wales) [10-33]: I have to thank hon. mem-
At the same time, I would say, with regard
bers for the assiduity exhibited during the to any clause which appears to involve, in
first night sitting, and I now move: the opinion of hon. members, a matter of
That the Chairman leave the chair, report pro- vital importance with regard to the ac-
gress, and ask leave to sit again to-morrow.
ceptability of this bill in its final stage, I
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER shall be prepared to give the greatest con-
(Victoria) [10-33]: There is one matter sideration to any application of this kind.
which I desire to mention before the ad-
I do not like to pledge myself now, be-
journment takes place, and it has refer-
cause so much depends upon time and cir-
ence to clause 24 with which we have
cumstances. At the same time, I think
dealt to-night. We, as representatives of my right hon. friend can rely upon my
Victoria, feel the seriousness of the vote giving every consideration to any such
that was taken to-night, and the grave suggestion. I should like to say, with re:
difficulties which it undoubtedly places in gard to to-morrow's proceedings—if I may
our way
As the Committee had not the
say so now—that while we have taken
full number of members present when the
some minor clauses since the division in
vote was taken, I desire to mention that
reference to the house of representatives,
later on I will ask the leader of the Con.
I propose to-morrow to revert to the
vention to be good enough to recommit
arrangement we made, and to take next
that clause, in order that it may be further
the money powers of the two houses, in
considered, and a vote taken in a full
order that hon. members may proceed to
Committee. The clause is the one which
has reference to the quota. In our opinion consider any provision they wish to make
the vote is a very serious one, and one of
in regard to deadlocks.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
grave importance; and I shall ask the
leader of the Convention to recommit it (10.37]: With regard to the matter men-
in order that we may, if possible, produce tioned by my right hon. friend, the Pre-
mier of Victoria—that is, the possibility
arguments which may induce some mem-
bers who voted one way to reverse their de-
of recommittal of clause 24—I hope the
cision. That will also give an opportunity recommittal will be taken before we leave,
to those who were absent to be present. The otherwise the matter presents to my mind
matter is one which certainly ought to be a rery serious aspect. If the question is
voted upon in a full Convention.
decided at a very late date, it will pro-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South bably be in the absence of several members
Wales) [10:34]: I only desire to mention of the Victorian delegation. I do not wish
that the voting on the clause was 26 to 17. to say anything further than that I desire
In other words, forty-three members out to impress the Convention with the seri-
of fifty voted, and as you, Sir Richard ousness of the question, if the matter be
Baker, were in the chair, there were only not dealt with before we go to Melbourne.
six absentees. I do not know whether or The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
not there were any pairs.
Wales) [10:38]: I understand that we can-
Commonwealth of
467
[13 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
a.m.
not enter upon a recommittal until we have TUESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
dealt with the whole of the clauses; but,
Commonwealth of Australia Bill.
from the progress which is being made,
and having regard to the statement of the
Right Hon. Sir George Turner, that he
The PRESIDENT took, the chair at. 10:30
and his colleagues could not stay beyond
three weeks, I take it that by Friday week COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
a full opportunity for recommittal will In Committee :
have been afforded.
CHAPTER. I-THE PARLIAMEXT.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I shall
Part IV-Provisions relating to both houses.
be away before then, although some of
Clause 44 (Allowance to members).
my colleagues will probably be here !
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
The Hon. E. BARTON: All I can say Wales) [10-32]: In accordance with the
is that I trust not; and I hope the right understanding arrived at yesterday, that
hon. gentleman will not state anything
we should take the constitution of the
final in reference to the matter just now.
two houses, then the money powers, and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I must then the question of deadlocks, I presume
go!
that it will be acceptable to hon. members
The Hon. E. BARTON: I understood
if I move to postpone clauses 44 to 53
the statement of the right hon. gentleman inclusive. I, therefore, move:
when we first opened our session to be That clauses 44 to 53 inclusive be postponed.
that the Victorian delegation could not
Question resolved in the affirmative.
remain here any longer than three weeks.
I took that statement to imply that they
Clause 54.. Proposed laws. having for their
main object the appropriation of any part of the
certainly would stay for that three weeks.
public revenue or moneys, or the imposition of
I assumed that there would be a disposition any tax or impost, shall originate in the house
on the part of the whole of the Victorian
of representatives.
delegation to stay during that time. And
The CHAIRMAN: In this clause the Legis-
assuming that the Convention sits during
lative Council and Legislative Assembly
a period of three weeks I do not see that
of New South Wales propose to omit the
we can fail to have an opportunity of re-
words: “having for their main object
with a view to insert “ for." The Legis-
committing any clauses which it may be
lative Assembly of Victoria propose to
desired to be recommitted.
omit the words “having for their main
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
object the appropriation of” with a view
tralia)[10:39]: With reference to the ques-
to insert the word "appropriating," and
tion which is being discussed, I desire to say
the Legislative Assembly of Tasmania pro-
that although I voted on the opposite side
pose to omit the word “main." I think
to my right hon. friend, Sir George Turner,
that I will put the question that the words
and to the hon: member, Mr. Isaacs, I
“having for their main object" be omitted;
shall nevertheless be prepared to afford and then those who only wish to strike out
every opportunity for a reconsideration of the word "main" can amend that sugges-
the clause by suspension of the standing tion by leaving out the other words, so
orders, if necessary. I hope that the whole that those hon. members from Tasmania
of our business will be done without any who wish to give effect to the suggestion
appearance of an attempt to catch votes. of their legislative assembly can do so by
Motion agreed to; progress reported. • amending the proposed amendment.
Convention: adjourned at 10:40 p.m.
The Hon. E.. BARTON:
468
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
The CHAIRMAN : In order to enable the
dered, under which circumstances it has
amendments suggested by Victoria, New often been ruled that such bills cannot be
South Wales, and Tasmania, each to be put introduced in the second chamber—those
and voted upon, I now put the question : of us who think it has been a needless
That the words, “having for their main ob-
harassment, as I do, may very well vote
ject,” proposed to be struck out, stand part of
for an amendment of this sort if we think
the question.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
that the words “having for their main
Wales) [10-36]: There has been a good object” are rather undefined as they stand.
But I think it is well to consider whether
deal of trouble about the definition of the
this is or is not a desirable amendment.
words "having for their main object," and
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
I think we all feel this : even those of us
who are against anyundue limitation of the [10:39]: Who is to define the words “main
object”—the president of the senate, or
-power of origination in the senate of some
matters which impose charges on the people
the speaker of the house of representa-
probably think that there is a great deal
tives, or the minister, or executive, who
of indefiniteness about these words. I
introduces the bill? It is very certain that
the word "main" is not sufficiently definite,
remember the difficulty which the original
and I also fully understand that the pur-
mover of the suggested amendment felt
about that, and we all feel it. An attempt
pose of the Adelaide Convention was to give
has been made to get rid of that difficulty
to the senate power for the introduction of
by the Legislative Assembly of Tasmania
a bill, whose object was only incidentally to
which proposes to strike out the word
collect a charge, as, for instance, a toll, or
"main" and leave that part of the clause
some fee for services rendered. If you
to read “having for their object," and to
leave out the word “ main," therefore, and
put in the following proviso at the end of
state definitely what you mean, namely,
the clause :-
"a proposed law which provides for the
But a proposed law which provides for the
imposition and appropriation of fines, or
imposition and appropriation of fines or other other pecuniary penalties, or for the de-
pecuniary penalties, or for the demand and pay. mand, and payment, and appropriation of
ment and appropriation of fees for licenses or
fees for licenses or for services," then you
for services, and does not otherwise impose any
tax or appropriate any part of the public reve-
certainly get more near a definition than
nue, may originate either in the house of repre- we have at the present time. If it can be
sentatives or in the senate.
improved upon, so much the better. The
I thought it just as well to invite the at- word "main" is certainly indefinite and
tention of hon. members to this suggested unsatisfactory. More difficulties are likely
amendment, because it may be thought that to arise if we leave the provision in an
it has the merit of making the intention indefinite form than if we attempt to
more definite. On the other hand, there make it definite.
may be hon, members who think that the The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
widest possible meaning should be given South Wales) [10:40]: If we strike out
to the words “having for their main the word “main” it will not reinove the
object.” It struck me that to avoid that difficulty, because the ambiguity will be as
inconvenience and unnecessary trouble great as before ; but in accordance with
which occurs when the second chamber the suggested amendment read by the
is prohibited to deal with matters which Chairman we can make the clause read
incidentally impose a fee, such as a license " proposed laws appropriating," which will
fee, or which ask a fee for services ren- get back to the phrase employed in the
[The Chairman.
Commonwealth of
469
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
bill of 1891, and we can then add to the An Hon. MEMBER : No; the words
clause a very valuable amendment sug- “having for their main object” have been
gested by the Tasmanian legislature which, struck out!
while leaving the wording of the clause Mr. SYMON: That is a very important
similar to that in most of our constitution amendment, and I am sorry that I did not
acts, will give the senate power to intro-
understand at the time what words it was
duce measures in which the appropriation proposed to omit.
of a fee or the creation of expenditure is
The Hon. E. BARTON : Did not the hon.
a mere incident in the main scope of the and learned member hear the explanation
bill. No man of any sense or moderation of the right hon. member, Mr. Reid?
would call such a bill a money bill in the Mr. SYMON: I always listen with a
sense that it must be introduced in the great deal of interest to what my right
lower chamber. The amendment suggested hon. friend has to say ; but this morning
by the Tasmanian legislature would enable I was not able to hear him. To
my mind
bills of this kind to be introduced in the the Tasmanian amendment would be in-
senate without difficulty. I would suggest effective. I do not think that the omis-
the omission of the words :
sion of the words “having for their main
“having for their main object the appropriation
object” will enable us to attain the end
of” with a view to the insertion of the word which we could have attained if the words
"appropriating.”
had been left in the clause. "Proposed
The CHAIRMAN : The omission of the laws having for their object the appropria-
words "having for their main object” has tion of” is a phrase very different from
already been put from the Chair.
the phrase " proposed laws appropriating.”
The Right Hon. G: H. REID: Then I The very sweeping effect of the amend-
think we might fairly agree to the striking ment to which I understand we have agreed
out of those words upon the understanding is not helped by the introduction of the
that words are to be added to the clause Tasmanian amendment dealing with fines,
enabling the senate to initiate bills of a licenses, and matters of that kind. It re-
certain character.
duces the powers of the senate to a mere
The Hon. J.N.BRUNKER (New South farce. Of course, I cannot deny that the
Wales) [10:43]: Whilst I concur in the amendment now proposed is grammatically
proposition of the right hon. gentleman, I a good one; but I think some attention
would suggest that the word “licenses,” will have to be directed to this matter by
occurring in the amendment suggested those who wish to see the senate clothed
by the Tasmanian legislature, should be with more satisfactory and reasonable
omitted.
powers in relation to money bills.
An Hon. MEMBER : We have not come
An Hon. MEMBER: The words were in
to that yet!
the original bill!
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. SYMON: I know that; but the
Amendment (Right Hon. G. H. REID origination of money bills is a very import-
proposed :
ant function. So far as the mere gram-
That the words “the appropriation of” be
matical amendment now proposed is con-
omitted with the view to the insertion of the cerned, I have no objection to it; but if
word "appropriating."
I had clearly heard what was being done,
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [10-45]: and understood the effect of the last amend-
As I understand that the word "main" ment before it was carried I should have
has now been struck out
desired to have had some discussion upon it.
470
Australico Bill.
Commonweclth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
The CHAIRMAN : I have overlooked the the majority of the Convention desire to
fact that the legislature of New South avoid it; because, if you simply say "bills
Wales has suggested the insertion of the appropriating," as long as there is no ap-
word “for," which is a prior amendment propriation, however trifling, in any bill,
to that suggested by the right hon. member, there is no power of origination.
Mr. Reid, and must, therefore, be put The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I am
first.
moving this amendment with the object of
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South allowing other words to be put in, giving
Australia) [10:48]: I was under the im-
the senate the power of amendment of
pression at the time you put the last bills, the main object of which is not appro-
amendment, Mr. Chairman, that you in- priation.
tended to put the Tasmanian amendment
Mr. WISE : It will bring it back to the
afterwards.
same as it was in 1891 !
The CHAIRMAN: I explained to the Com-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We'
mittee that if anyone wished to move an
altered the language because it was not
amendment upon the amendment he could
sufficient.
do so.!
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
The Right Hon. G. H. REID :. We are
endeavouring to meet all you want by
was my idea. I think the amendment one
inserting subsequent words !
of great importance.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I will
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Which
carefully examine the subsequent words,
amendment?
and I have no doubt the hon, member will
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
guarantee that they will be well con-
amendment of my right hon. friend.
sidered. It seems to me that having
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is
omitted the words, “having for their main
merely a verbal amendment !
object," we have removed the matter be-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I think yond question much more clearly than the
not. As I understand the amendment, if words will do which the Tasmania repre-
it is carried the clause will read "proposed sentatives propose.
laws for appropriating."
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [10:53]: I
Mr.MCMILLAN: That may make a slight think the hon. and learned member, Mr.
difference !
Symon, and the Hon. Sir John Downer,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Those
: are under a misapprehension with regard
words may mean the same as the words to the object of the Right Hon. G. H.
that have been struck out. There has Reid's proposal. It will be understood that
been a difficulty in Victoria for twenty I have no dark design in this matter.
. I
years over this subject, and the two houses think we are all agreed as to what we want.
are still debating it. With an example of I understand no one wishes to give to the
that kind before us, it will not be begin- senate the power of originating ordinary
ning very well with the federal parliament money or appropriation bills.
if we allow this doubt to exist.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Having for their
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : My main object !
amendment avoids that difficulty !
Mr. HIGGINS: Exactly; ordinary ap
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Truly propriation or taxation bills. At the same
enough it avoids the difficulty, but it does time, I think there is no one who desires
not avoid the difficulty in the way in which to prevent the senate from originating a
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
471
114 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
bill which incidentally imposes a fine or I do hope that such an excellent proposal
fee, or to appropriate a small part of the as this, which, I think, really meets the
revenue as incidental to the main object. views of members as a whole, will be
The whole difficulty has arisen over the adopted. If you put in the word “for,"
words “main object.”
it will lead to those unending quarrels
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Because you which have arisen in Victoria, I think
cannot define “main," you want to cut very uselessly, and fruitlessly, between the
away the power from the senate!
Legislative Assembly and Council. In
Mr. HIGGINS: I hope the hon. mem-
Victoria we have the words “for appro-
ber will not adopt a suspicious and fear- priating.” The Council insists that the
some attitude with regard to any sugges-
word “for” indicates that it must be a
tion from the larger states.
bill which 'has for its main object appro-
The Hon. E. BARTON: The amendment priation. The Assembly insists that it
suggested by the Tasmanian Parliament
matters not what are the objects, that
even these little bills providing for appro-
goes a good way towards removing the
difficulty !
priation must be originated in the Assem-
Mr. HIGGINS : If the proposal from bly. That quarrel has never been settled,
Tasmania, which, I understand, was sug-
and has led to a great loss of time and
gested by Mr. Clark, was adopted, it would
temper. I hope the word “for” will not
achieve the object of the Convention.
þe put in the bill. I think the represen-
tatives of the larger states have no inten-
An Hon. MEMBER: No, it would not !
tion of depriving the senate of the power
Mr. HIGGINS : It simply means that
to impose these fines, fees, and penalties,
all bills appropriating money, or imposing
and even to appropriate these fines, fees,
any tax, must originate in the house of
and penalties.
representatives ; but there is an exception.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) (10-57]:
The only question is, whether the excep-
I wish to mention now that if this word
tion would cover all the matters which we
“for” is put in I shall move the addition.
wish to cover. I have looked at those words
of the words “their chief purpose.” At
carefully, and they seem to me to cover
the time the question was put I did not
all that any person who wants even ex-
know whether that had not been suggested
treme rights to be given to the senate
by some of my colleagues, and therefore I
could possibly wish. The Right Hon. did not insist upon a division although I
G. H. Reid, in his excellent speech, wbich called forone. Others beside myself allowed
I understand was not heard by hon. mem- the amendment to be put under a complete
bers at the end of the chamber, indicated misapprehension.
what the proposed amendment should be. The CHAIRMAN : I may say that I shall
The Tasmanian amendment says :
not be able to accept the amendment indi-
Buta proposed law which provides for the im- cated by the hon. member, because it would
position and appropriation of fines or other
be reopening a question which we have
pecuniary penalties, or for the demand and pay. already decided.
ment and appropriation of fees for licenses or for
Mr. GLYNN: There has been some
services
confusion about the matter, and if I assure
That will include appropriation, as will be
the Committee that I called for a division,
I would like to know if it is now too late
and does not otherwise impose any tax or appro-
priate any part of the pnblic revenue, may.
to insist upon a division ?
originate either in the house of representatives
The CHAIRMAN : Yes; it is too late now.
or in the senate.
I did not hear the hon. member.
seen—
472
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
An Hon. MEMBER: I heard the hon. question of salary. I simply mention this
member, Mr. Glynn, call for a division ! as a case in point. The point, as regards
Mr. GLYNN : As you, sir, say it is now the railway commissioners bill, was brought
too late, I will simply say that later on I up in South Australia. There was a dis-
will make a proposition to add the words, pute there as to whether there was power
“having for their chief purpose." I do to amend the bill, simply because it fixed
not think the amendment suggested by the the salary of the railway commissioners in
Tasmanian Parliament goes far enough. one of its clauses; and the point raised
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Will it was that it was not a money bill, although
not be better to remove any ambiguity ? it contained one or two clauses relating to
Mr. GLYNN: Of course there is a
money matters.
great difficulty in filling up all the details The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
so as to cover the general meaning. [11.2]: I think the clause before the Com-
Mr. MCMILLAN: Who is to decide what mittee has a more important and wider
is the chief object?
scope than hon. members seem to attribute
Mị. GLYNN: That is the point wbich to it; but you, Mr. Chairman, put the
shows the necessity of being particularly matter exceedingly clearly, and the Pre-
careful. Under our existing constitutions muier of New South Wales was also equally
that point is decided by the houses them-
clear. Some of us, however, were busy
selves, but under this bill I think the ques- with our letters and telegrams, and did
tion as to the main object of a bill might not quite see the importance of what was
have to be interpreted on a case arising being done. As I understand the matter
in litigation by the Supreme Court. That when it was found that we departed from
shows the necessity of being far more care-
the 1891 bill, and allowed the senate to be
ful than even when such words are in the elected by the direct vote of the people,
constitutions of our local parliaments. It and when we refused to give to the senate
has been pointed out that there has been the power to amend a money bill, and only
a dispute in Victoria as to the meaning left them with power to suggest, the Con-
of the word “for” in connection with vention, I understand, wanted to give them
the word “appropriating," and that dis- a slight quid pro quo, and in inserting the
pute is not yet settled after many years.
words “having for their main object” they
Will it not be well to have the question
wanted the senate to initiate bills in their
as to the main object decided at once by own chamber, the main objects of which
putting in the necessary words? A de- were not the appropriation of revenue.
finition to be complete ought to be suffi- The hon. member, Mr. Higgins, and others
ciently general to cover everything that are, I think, unintentionally and unwit-
can possibly be covered by specification. tingly cutting down the power which was
But in specifying in detail we are almost advisedly and directly given to the senate
sure to leave out something. Look at the in recommending the striking out of those
Tasmanian amendment. Supposing it is
words. The authority or power to the
desired to introduce a bill like the railway
senate to introduce a bill which can simply
commissioners bill, fixing the salaries of impose a paltry fine or penalty is practic-
the railway commissioners ? That bill ally nothing, and it is not the kind of bill
could not, under the Tasmanian amend- the senate would wish to originate.
ment, be introduced in the senate, be- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Can the
cause it would not be a question of fines, hon. member mention one they would wish
penalties, and fees for services, but a to originate?
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
473
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I am going to what. a money bill is, it is no reason,
mention one, apd I would be glad to hear because we are met with a difficulty, that
what the right hon. gentleman thinks of we should get rid of that difficulty by
it. Hon. members will notice that the taking away all the power from the senate
Attorney-General of Tasmania has put in which we almost unanimously gave to
the words "fees for licenses or for services." it.
He put in those words upon a suggestion
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [11.5]
from myself, when I raised the point in was understood to say that he hoped power
Tasmania which I am now raising here. would be given to the senate to introduce
How can we have fees or licenses for ser- all bills excepting appropriation bills, bills
vices? What I suggest is that the senate imposing taxation, and loan bills. If we
may wish to be an active legislative body.. confined ourselves to that he thought there
Whilst the members of the house of repre- would be no difficulty.
sentatives are busy with their finances, the Mr. McMILLAN (New South Wales)
senate may wish to go into the question [11:6] : I think we all know exactly what
of defence; they may wish to go into the we want, but the difficulty is to carry it
question of establishing schools for meteor- out. We all know what we mean by those
ology, or other matters, which are handed bills, which simply incidentally imply a
over to the federal parliament; and if they money expenditure; but, although I am
introduce a very useful bill which the sure those who believe in strengthening
federation wishes for, but which involves the senate as much as possible are anxious
the payment for services of a secretary or to meet this difficulty, still, we must have
clerk to the extent of £1,000 or £2,000 a no apprehension in the future. I can-
year, I understand that that is the kind not see what tribunal has been erected
of bill which this clause enables the senate, outside the Supreme Court which could
under the terms of the Adelaide Conven- define what is and what is not a money
tion, to introduce.
bill. Therefore, it seems to me that whilst
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : We a definition such as that proposed by Tas-
should want a message from the governor mania does very much to reduce the power
for that!
of the senate- because it is often the un-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : We should foreseen that happens, and this is an at-
want a message from the governor, but tempt to define what is practically unde-
the minister in the senate would bring the finable--still, to my mind, it is the nearest
message from the governor. I understand approach we can make to this compromise.
that that was the quid pro quo offered to I look with the most absolute horror on
the senate because it was to be elected on the idea of any question between the two
manhood suffrage, and was not to have houses as to their separate jurisdiction.
power to amend money bills, but only to Therefore, whilst
Therefore, whilst I have not sufficient
suggest amendments. I would point out knowledge to say whether the proposal of
to the Premier of New South Wales that Tasmania is sufficiently large, still it does
there would be scores of bills in time to seem to me that whatever proviso we
come whose main object would not be insert must be absolutely clear and unmis-
the appropriation of revenue, but whose takable.
object could not be carried out without The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
the appropriation of a small amount of (South Australia) (11.8]: I shall be found
revenue.
I would also point out that recording my vote in favour of inserting
although it is difficult and hard to define the word “for," and one of my reasons for
,
474
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
1
agreeing to the adoption of that word is
come the suggestion of the Tasmanian
that it is found in the Constitution Act, Parliament. No doubt the matter has
under which there has been a fairly har- been most carefully considered. It is not
monious working between the two branches very difficult, I think, to observe in the
of the legislature. In the 1st section of amendment the handiwork of our friend,
our Constitution Act, by which the two Mr. Inglis Clark, and I trust that by the
houses of the local parliament are estab- addition of words such as he proposes we
lished, a proviso is added that
shall leave no loophole for those difficul-
All bills for appropriating any part of the
ties which have existed in the past; but
revenue, or for imposing, altering, or repealing that we shall define the relative rights of
any rate, tax, duty, or impost shall originate in
the two houses, with reference to the
the House of Assembly.
origination of these bills, in a way which
I am prepared, so far as I can, to endea-
will be acceptable to the two chambers,
vour to place a provision in the Common-
and which will promote the interests of
wealth Bill similar to that which we have
the commonwealth.
in the Constitution Act. I am glad in-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
deed that we have struck out the pro-
Wales) (11.12]: I am of opinion that the
vision by which it is stipulated that the
adjustment of these money clauses, which
test as to whether or not the senate shall
took place in 1891, is, on the whole, the
have the right to originate bills should
fairest that can be made as between the
depend as to whether or not the main
colonies. The clause corresponding to this
object of the bill is a certain thing. I
clause in the bill of 1891 reads thus :
see in an indefinite definition, so to speak,
Laws appropriating any part of the public
an abundant source of future doubt and
revenue, or imposing any tax or impost, shall
difficulty. We have had experience in the originate in the house of representatives.
Victorian legislature as regards the use of
I take it that the desire of the Right Hon.
this word, and in view of the difficulties
the Premier of New South Wales is to re-
which have arisen in the past, I think we
tain this clause. The Right Hon. Sir George
shall be false to our trust if, in framing a
Turner moved a similar amendment, which
constitution which will be acceptable to
was defeated by only four votes. I voted
the people, we do not endeavour to pre-
with the right hon. gentleman on that
vent, as far as practicable, the possibility occasion, and I should like to explain that
of dispute-if we do not do all that we can
I have not changed my opinion. I am
to make the statute so clear that he who
quite prepared to go in the direction indi-
runs may read.
cated by the amendment of Mr. Inglis
An HON. MEMBER : Will not theamend- Clark which not only makes things a good
ment make the clause more obscure?
deal more definite, but is a step beyond
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: It the bill of 1891 by way of making the
might make it obscure from some points legislative machinery work more smoothly,
of view; but I do not think it will gen- and securing to the senate that degree of
erally, and for this reason : We ourselves individuality in matters of this kind of
have not had much trouble in ascertaining which it would be a scandal to deprive
its meaning. I think, however, that what them through some matter of construction.
the Convention is determined to do is to I think that the addition contemplated by
adopt an expression which will tell us Mr. Inglis Clark might be made; but I
more clearly than we have it in the clause think, also, that with that exception we
at present, what we really mean. I wel- should adhere to the lines of the adjust-
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
475
[14 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill
ment made in 1891, because I believe it to in order to make it quite clear that we do
be on the whole the fairest adjustment in not wish to prohibit the senate from initi-
the interests.of the individual colonies, and ating general legislation involving only
also the best solution of this difficult money incidentally the appropriation of money.
question in the interests of constitutional The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
government. I hope the amendment sug- Australia) [11:16]: There is no doubt to
gested by the right hon. the Prime Minister my mind that the Tasmanian suggestion
of New South Wales will be adopted. will make the powers of the senate less
The Right Hon. G. E. REID (New than they are under the bill. Some hon.
South Wales) (11.14]: I believe the amend- members, I know, are of a different opinion.
ment put from the Chair is to insert the My right hon. friend, Mr. Kingston, seems
word “ for," which precedes the amend- to think that it would be better to diminish
iment I desire to move. I would suggest powers that ought to be diminished than to
to the Convention that inasmuch as we use words having any ambiguity. I think
know as a matter of fact that the word
the words originally in the clause stated
5 for " has created unending disputes be- that which was intended fairly enough.
tween houses of an Australian legislature. The right hon. the Premier of New South
we, with our eyes open to that fact, should Wales has spoken of bills which incident-
incur a serious responsibility if we were to ally impose expenditure. It seems to me
imitate that form of words. As I said in that these words are clear enough, and I
Adelaide, I am quite in favour of brushing do not see why there should be difficulty
away all those artificial difficulties which in construing words which we understand
would prevent the senate from initiating thoroughly well when used colloquially,
bills of a general character where money about which there is no difficulty, when
comes in incidentally; for I have never those words get into an act of parliament.
been opposed to the senate having perfect I object to the word "for.” It seems to
freedom in those matters. I think we me that the alteration now proposed is a
are all agreed upon that. I think, how- distinct diminution of the powers of the
ever, that we all owe one duty to the senate, and I think it is meant. The
people of the future commonwealth, and Tasmanian amendment probably contains
that is, that we should not, with our everything which the ingenious draftsman
eyes open put into the constitution a could think of at the moment. Mr. Inglis
form of words which, as a matter of simple Clark is a lover of precision, and he would
fact, we know to have caused endless dis- rather diminish the powers of the senate a
putes in a colony of the future common- little than not be precise in his draftsman-
wealth. With our eyes open to that state ship. The hon. gentleman has put into
of things, we should be incurring a serious this addition everything he could think of
responsibility if we adopted precisely the which might represent the incidentals ;
same form of words. With reference to but there are many things which may not
the fact that in the South Australian Con- be, and which experience will show, are
stitution there is the word “for” ; it is, not contained within these words. The
in my opinion, a loose expression, which result will be that the senate will bave no
is calculated to give rise in a federal com- jurisdiction where they might have had it
munity to a great deal of dispute. Having had the clause not been altered.
removed that source of ambiguity, I am The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
prepared to agree to any reasonable en- Wales) [11•19]: I might point out that
largement of the Tasmanian amendment this is really an adaptation of what is a
476
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
standing order of the House of Commons, The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
in which it is provided that the House will [11:23]: In this amendment the Attorney-
notinsist upon its privileges in certain cases. General of Tasmania put in the word
Substantially, the cases there defined are " services” in order to retain that power
the cases mentioned in this amendment. to the senate which the original clause gave
I thought it well to mention that matter. it. As I read the clause with the word
It will be better to have this provision in "services in it, it appears to me that
the constitution. In practice, the House there is something which ought to be seen
of Lords exercises no power in the origina- to. The hon. member, Mr. Higgins, in his
tion or amendment of money bills, and the speech, went on to say that we had power
friction caused by the want of power led to appropriate, and there he stopped, and
to the passing of the standing order by the then he said “fees and licenses.” Now,
House of Commons, and it is constantly the senate does not care twopence about
availed of by the House of Lords.
appropriating fees and licenses. We want
Question-That the word “for” be in-
to appropriate a small part of the revenue
serted-negatived.
for services rendered.
The senate may
The CHAIRMAN: It is now proposed to
have to introduce health laws ; it may
strike out the words “the appropriation have to introduce laws in reference to
of,” line 2
immigration, and it may want to pay the
Question—That the words stand part of salary of a secretary or an inspector to the
the clause--negatived.
amount, perhaps, of £300, £400, or even
Question—That the word " appropriat- £1,000 a year. I understand that these
were the kind of laws which the senate'
ing" be inserted-agreed to.
might initiate as laws not having for their
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
sembly of Victoria agreeil to:
main object the appropriation of revenue.
Omit “the imposition of," line 3. Insert I desire to call the attention of the leader
“imposing.'
of the Convention and the other lawyers
Amendment suggested by the House of Assembly present to the fact that the word "ser-
of Tasmania:
vices” ought to come out, or else some-
At the end of clause add "but a proposed law
which provides for the imposition and appropri- thing should be put before it. The amend-
ation of fines or other pecuniary penalties, or for ment is hardly sense as it reads now.
the demand and payment and appropriation of The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
fees for licenses or for services, and does notother-
South Wales) (11.25]: At the first blush
wise impose any tax or appropriate any part of
the public revenue, may originate either in the I thought the proposed amendment rather
house of representatives or in the senate." limited the powers of the senate; but on
The Hon. J.H. GORDON (South Aus-
close examination I find that its operation
tralia): I would draw the attention of the will be to largely increase the powers of
hon. and learned member, Mr. Barton, to that chamber. Under these words, "the
the wording of this amendment. I would appropriation of fees for licenses or for
suggest that the word “and” after the services,” we are proposing now to hand
word "demand," and also after the word over to the senate powers which, in the
"payment," should be "or."
draft as it left us in Adelaide, were not
Amendments substituting " or " for conferred upon that body. Under this
"and,” in line 4 of proposed amendment, proviso the senate will have power to
agreed to.
originate bills which will practically regu-
Suggested amendment, as amended, pro-
late the whole of the mining industry in
posed.
the territories which come under its juris-
1
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
477
diction. It will not regulate the mining in- as regards the colonies which have self-
dustry with regard to colonies, but with governing powers at the present time, these
regard to territories which, under the 116th difficulties may not appear to be great, yet
clause, may become vested in the common- as regards the territories which would be
wealth. The whole of the mining indus- handed over, some time or other, to the
try there will be regulated, and we know commonwealth, we should have the power
that taxation received from the mining in- of the purse to a large extent in the hands
dustry is in the form of licenses. More of the senate, which does not represent the
than that, the whole of the postal revenue individuals concerned, but which is sup-
will be placed in the hands, so far as its posed to be a body to conserve state rights.
collection and appropriation is concerned, With regard to this financial jurisdiction
of the senate equally with the house of over the territories there can be no claim
representatives, because the large revenue as to state rights being involved, as the ter-
which the commonwealth will derive from ritories will, perhaps, have no state rights
the postal business will consist of fees for to be conserved in the senate. I warn
services rendered.
hon, members that we are unduly enlarg.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: They ing, by this provision, the powers of the
must always get a governor's message senate. The amendment proposed in the
before they can move!
Legislative Assembly of New South Wales
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: In was in the direction of restricting those
addition to the Governor's message, the powers and going back to the compromise
words in clause 54 restrict the power of made in 1891. We carried those amend-
the senate to interfere in money bills, un- ments, and it would be merely taking away
less for merely an incidental purpose. We that which has already been granted" by
may have a postal bill introduced, having the amendments passed, and superadding
for its sole purpose the question of raising to the powers of the senate, if we agreed
the postage on the mail matter of the com- to the amendment now proposed. Then,
monwealth. Even if a message had pre- again, navigation is handed over as one of
ceded such a bill, it could not be introduced the subjects to be dealt with by the com-
in the senate, but would have to be intro- monwealth. A large portion of the revenue
duced in the house of representatives. We of the commonwealth will be derived from
have also handed over to the commonwealth the imposition of what are called harbour
the question of Australasian fisheries. The dues or tonnage rates.
These are prac-
whole of the revenue from those fisheries tically fees for services rendered. They
will be derived from fees or licenses. Prior will come under the broad definition in
to this amendment being proposed, the this proviso. We shall have the power
senate had no power in the bill to inter- handed over to the senate of originating
fere with that great interest, as regards laws, preceded, of course, by a message,
the revenue derived from it, or the ap- which will wholly and solely deal with
propriation of that revenue. Under this these questions of the imposition of har-
amendment, the whole of the revenue and bour dues or tonnage rates.
the appropriation of it would be a matter The Hon. E. BARTON : A message would
of equal concern with the senate as with only be required in case of their appro-
the house of representatives. That would priation !
be unduly enlarging the scope of the autho- The Hon.J.H.CARRUTHERS: These
rity of the senate, and enlarging it beyond laws, therefore, could be introduced with
what we agreed uponin Adelaide. Although, out a message.
478
Australia. Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But harbour Does not the hon. member see that those
dues and tonnage rates are scarcely fees- words govern the latter words he calls my
they are charges !
attention to ? As long as the proposed
The Hon. J.H. CARRUTHERS: With
bill only appropriates these fees or licenses,
regard to harbour dues, most of the colo-
or other services, and does not otherwise
nies collect them as fees for services ren- appropriate any part of the public revenue,
dered in the shape of pilotage and other
that bill will be introduced into the senate.
matters. The plea on which harbour dues The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
are imposed is that they are fees for ser- What harm will be done?
vices rendered by the pilot service. The The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : I
wharfage rates may stand on a different move :
footing, but the harbour dues are in New- That the words " for licenses or other ser-
castle and Sydney, and I dare say in Mel-
vices " be omitted with the view to the insertion
in their place of the words “ of office."
bourne, largely imposed on account of the
services rendered by the various officers
I propose the amendment so that bills
of the Government. In regard to the
may not be introduced in the senate for
mining industry, the fisheries industry-
the purpose of appropriating or collecting
what are known as fees of office—such
where the revenue is collected in the form
of licenses--in regard to other industries
fees as are collected by clerks of petty
sessions, and minor fees collected by vari-
which would be carried on in aterritory, the
ous officers in different parts of the colony.
revenue would be derivedin the form of fees
I wish to limit the powers of the senate
In regard to the postal business, the reve-
in such a way that in those matters which
nue is derived in the form of fees. And
are largely sources of revenue for licenses
in regard to navigation, the revenue is de-
or for public services, the senate shall not
rived in the form of fees. If we are going
have co-ordinate powers with the house of
to hand orer the power of originating bills
representatives.
to impose and appropriate those revenues
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
we are whittling away all the power, which
Wales) [11-33]: I do not anticipate the
we claim for the lower house--the power of
dangers from this suggested amendment
the purse. If we begin to whittle them
that seem to have suggested themselves to
away in that direction, we might as well
my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers. I do not
concede the whole thing, and give co-ordin-
think that there is anything in this addi-
ate powers in matters of finance to the
tion to the clause which need arouse the
senate.
susceptibilities of or need alarm anyone
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Why not wipe who, like myself, is a strong believer in
out the senate altogether?
thesystem of responsible government being
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I conserved by the ultimate custody of the
do not intend simply to speak ; I desire public purse being in one house. I do not
to test the feeling of the Convention by think there can be any danger of that sort.
moving the omission of the words,
Perhaps I had better read the standing
for the demand and payment and appropriation
order of the House of Commons which has
of fees for licenses or for services, –
been adopted in South Australia :
Mr. MCMILLAN: Read further on !
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS : And in Tas-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS :
mania !
and does not otherwise impose any tax or
The Hon. E. BARTON: And in Tas-
appropriate
mania also, I believe. I do so in order to
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
479
[14 SEPT.,. 1897.]
Aristralia Bill.
:
Cases :
show that a similar provision to this is not The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes; there is
regarded by the House of Commons as a marked difference between inserting
leading to any infringement of its privi- something in a standing order and insert-
leges on the part of the House of Lords. ing it in an act of Parliament; but we
The following is the standing order of the must recollect that the standing orders of
Legislative Assembly of South Australia, the House of Commons have been so long
and it is virtually a copy of the standing in existence, and have regulated the prac-
order of the House of Commons
tice so-uniformly for a long period of time,
With respect to any bill brought to the House that they have now acquired such force
from the Legislative Council or returned by the that there ought not to be any bar to their
Legislative Council to the House with amend.
being inserted in the constitution. I think
ments, whereby any pecuniary penalty, forfeiture,
that is a fair answer. If we want to avoid
or fee shall be authorised, imposed, appropriated,
regulated, varied, or extinguished, the House
ambiguity, confusion, and unseenly quar-
will not insist on its privileges in the following rels between the two houses of legislature
we had better take this opportunity of
1. When the object of such pecuniary penalty making a reasonable definition. There-
or forfeiture is to secure the execution of the
act, or the punishment or prevention of offences.
fore, I think that these words may be re-
2. Where such fees are imposed in respect of
tained. But I ask you, sir, to put the
benefit taken or service rendered under the act, amendment proposed by the hon. member,
and' in order to the execution of the act, and are Mr. Carruthers, in a limited form, because
not made payable into the Treasury
wish to make a slight amendment even
That is to say, when there is no specific before that suggested by the hon, and
provision made that it should be made into learned member, Mr. Isaacs. So that
the public Treasury.
there shall not be any misconstruction as
or in aid of the public revenue, and do not to the meaning of the words “for ser-
form the ground of public accounting by the vices,” I propose to make the amendment
parties receiving the same either in respect of
read “appropriation of fees for licenses or
deficit or surplus :
3. When such bill shall be a private bill for a
fees for services," and then to add the
local or personal act.
words "under the proposed law.” I ask
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : These
you, sir, to put Mr. Carruthers' amend-
ment in such a way as to permit of this
words are wider than those !
afterwards coming on.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes, a little
The CHAIRMAN : I will put it in this
wider; but the extent to which they are
way: that the words “ fees. or licenses"
wider is not enough to aların any one.
proposed to be struck out stand part of the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why not in-
proposed amendment. But I understand
sert after the word "services” the words
that the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers,
sunder the proposed law”?
wishes to withdraw. the proposed amend-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think that ment.
that would be a proper limitation. But The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: There
even without those words, I think that being no chance of carrying the amend-
there is nothing in the suggested amend- ment which I have proposed, and the
ment which need cause alarm to any one, amendment proposed by the hon. and
or make any one suppose that the house learned member, Mr. Barton, going some-
of representatives are in any sense sur- what in the same direction, I beg leave to
rendering the control of the public purse. withdraw my amendment.
Mr. TRENWITH :
Amendment, by leave; withdrawn.
480
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Amendment (by Hon. E. BARTON) pro- a money bill, that the term “money bill”
posed :
ought to be abolished, and that for the
That after the word “or,” line 5, of proposed future we should speak of money clauses
amendment, the word “fees" be inserted.
in a bill. Originally all bills of the Com-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus- mons were practically money bills. After
tralia) [11:38]: “Fees for services"
ap- some time it came to be the practice to
pears to me not to include salaries. There
mix up matters of general policy with
is a distributive idea about the word “ fee" matters of finance. If a bill like a bill
which would imply short and temporary appointing Railway Commissioners was in-
services.
troduced into the senate, and became law,
The Hon. E. BARTON: There is nothing the question of its validity might subse-
in this amendment at any stage which quently have to be decided by the Supreme
will cover salaries !
Court.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Then, I The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Would the
think, it ought to cover payment for hon. member claim the right to introduce
salaries.
a bill of that kind in the senate ?
An HON. MEMBER : That comes in the
Mr. GLYNN: Decidedly. Why should
we not introduce a bill for thie creation of
annual appropriation bill!
a public service board, or any measure of
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : But still
the intention of the clause is to give to the
that kind in the senate ? As a matter of
convenience such bills have often been
senate the power of appropriating money
introduced in the Legislative Council of
for salary under a bill which the Assembly
South Australia. We had a bill intro-
has passed.
duced there recently providing for the con-
The Hon. E. BARTON : That might allow
solidation of the electoral laws of the
the senate to deal with the appropriation colony ; but because that bill incorporated
of money for carrying on the civil ser-
clauses for the payment of fees and sala-
vice!
ries it was found necessary to divide it
Mr. WISE: Or for originating a new into two, and a bill was drafted to separate
department of the civil service!
the two kinds of provisions. If the words
The Hon. E. BARTON : Very nearly. which I suggest are inserted in the amend..
At any rate, it would enable the senate ment it will get rid of the difficulty pointed
to go shares in the appropriation for the out by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
civil service!
Barton, that you might, under the general
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [11:41]: term of salaries, perhaps bring in a bill
I wish to insert after the word “services” appropriating the salaries necessary for the
the words “or as incidental to its policy carrying out of the work of the state.
of salaries." The case I have in mind is
The CHAIRMAN : I will first put the
that of measures such as that under which
amendment proposed by the hon. member,
the Railway Commissioners have been Mr. Barton.
appointed. I think that in all the colo-
Amendments (inserting "fees" before
nies the railway boards have been created
“for services," and inserting "under the
by acts which fix the salaries of the com-
proposed law” after - services ") agreed to.
missioners, and in South Australia we had
Amendment (by Mr. GLYNN) proposed :
a dispute as to whether a measure of that
That, after the words last inserted, the words
kind was
a money bill. The position I
or as incidental to its policy of salaries be
took cup was that such a measure was not nserted,
Commonwealth of
481
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South necessary supplies for the ordinary annual 5
Wales) [11:45]: I think we can scarcely services of the government, which the senate
insert these words. The limitation created
may affirm or reject, but may not amend.
But the senate may not amend any proposed
by the words “incidental to its policy” is law in such a manner as to increase any pro-
almost so wide as scarcely to be properly posed charge or burden on the people. 10
called a limitation. A thing incidental to (2) Laws imposing taxation shall deal with
the policy of a measure is a very large order
the imposition of taxation only.
indeed ; and I think that, if we agreed to
(3) Laws imposing taxation, except laws
imposing duties of customs on imports or of
the amendment, it would throw us again
excise, shall deal with one subject of taxation 15
into that very troubled obscurity and con- only ; but laws imposing duties of customs
fusion which it is our purpose to avert.
shall deal with duties of customs only, and
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The two ques-
laws imposing duties of excise shall deal with
duties of excise only.
tions are, what is an incident, and what is
(4) The expenditure for services other than 20
a policy?
the ordinary annual services of the govern-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : A big
ment shall not be authorised by the same law
loan might be incidental to a policy !
as that which appropriates the supplies for
the ordinary annual services, but shall be
The Hon. E. BARTON: How are we authorised by a separate law or laws.
25
to ask a president or a speaker, they being (5) In the case of a proposed law which the
officers removed from all party considera-
senate may not amend, the senate may at
any stage return it to the house of represen-
tions, and supposed to be purely impartial,
tatives with a message requesting the omis.
to define the policy of a government or of sion or amendment of any items or provisions 30
a member in connection with any measure ? therein. And the house of representatives
That is a task which we could not impose may, if it thinks fit, make such omissions or
amendments, or any of them, with or with-
upon such an authority.
out modifications.
Amendment negatived.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
Amendments (by the Hon. E. BARTON) of Western Australice :
agreed to:
Sub-clause I. Omit “laws imposing taxation
That after the word “revenue,” line 7 of pro-
and," lines 3 and 4.
posed amendment, the word “or moneys” be The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
inserted.
(Western Australia) (11:49]: The impor-
That the words “either in the house of repre-
tant question involved in the amendment
sentatives or,” lines 7 and 8, be omitted.
was dealt with by the Convention of 1891,
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
and again at the beginning of this year in
Clause, amended as under, agreed to :
Adelaide. On both occasions it was de-
Proposed laws appropriating any part of the
sired by a considerable section-almost
public revenue or moneys, or imposing any tax
half the members of the Convention that
or impost, shall origipate in the house of repre-
sentatives. But a proposed law which provides the words proposed to be struck out should
for the imposition and appropriation of fines or be so struck out; but, in both cases, there
other pecuniary penalties, or for the demand or
was a majority in favour of restricting the
payment or appropriation of fees for licenses or
fees for services under the proposed law, and
powers of the senate. I do not want to
does not otherwise impose any tax or appro-
take up the time of the Convention un-
priate any part of the public revenue or moneys, ecessarily ; but, inasmuch as the matter.
may originate in the senate,
has gone a stage further since our meeting
Clause 55. (1) The senate shall have equal
in Adelaide, I have no option but to again
power with the house of representatives in
ask hon. members to give a vote upon it.
respect of all proposed laws, except laws im-
posing taxation and laws appropriating the
Since we met in Adelaide, the bill has been
nec
2 L
482
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[14 SEPT. 1897.]
before the various parliaments of the conti- the position they do with regard to this and
nent, and in some of them, at any rate in the every other matter where it is desired to
colony I represent, both houses of Parlia- make the senate of the commonwealth
ment have suggested the alteration which strong. Only yesterday we were told, be-
I now propose in this clause.
The object
cause the majority of this Committee desired
of those who desire that these words should that in future the proportion should exist
find a place in the bill, is, of course, to
between the senate and the house of repre-
make the senate Iess powerful than we sentatives of one to two, for that reason
desire it should be. We were told in 1891, Victoria would not be able to enter the com-
and in March of this year, and we will be monwealth. If there were any disadvan-
told again to-day, that if these words are tage to be suffered by any particular state,
omitted from the clause, there cannot be I could understand that argument; but,
federation, that the larger colonies will not seeing we are all in the same boat, and that
ve anything to do with it, and that the every one of the states is to be in the same
desire of the smaller states is to coerce position with regard to the number of re-
the larger ones. Specious arguments, no presentatives, I cannot see how it should
doubt, will be used, and will have their affect one large, important, and wealthy
full effect, and if they fail, then we will be state like Victoria more adversely than it
threatened. That was generally the course
would affect New South Wales, Queens-
pursued on the two former occasions ; but, land, or any other portion of Australia.
nevertheless, I have a duty to fulfil to the When I was away from the Convention,
Parliament whose representative I am, and and when I had no opportunity of op-
I shall do my best before I sit down, and posing it, a clause was inserted in the bill
in as few words as I can, to place the case with regard to the elections to the house of
before hon, members.
representatives, providing that there should
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The hon.
be one man one vote, although that system
member has never threatened !
does not exist in many of the colonies
at present. Therefore the larger colonies
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
of New South Wales and Victoria have
No.
been strong enough to have it decided that
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I will tell
we shall altogether change our constitu-
the hon, member the reason because he
tion with regard to the franchise in order
has always had his own way!
to meet their wishes. It seems to me to
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: be a system of coercion all round by the
That is a very clever interjection no doubt; larger states with respect to the smaller
but, as a matter of fact, I have never had
We are asked to give way in every-
my own way in this matter at any rate, for thing. Although in 1891 the Convention
I have been defeated on both occasions- rejected almost unanimously, I think, the
in 1891, and in the beginning of this year proposal that the commonwealth of the
—with regard to this clause. I cannot federal parliament should have anything
understand the fear which is expressed by whatever to do with the mode of elec-
the larger colonies. I cannot see that there tion to the house of representatives by the
is anything to fear on their part with re- various states, that has now gone by the
gard to this federation. I am sure they board, according to the decision arrived at
will be strong enough to hold their own in by the Convention in the early part of this
the future as they have been in the past. I year. Every attempt has been made to
cannot understand why they should take пр
weaken the senate, and the larger states
ones.
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
483
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australico Bill.
seern to be afraid for some reason or give to the smaller states of the common-
another, but principally because they fear wealth some power and influence over those
a combination of the smaller states of great and important questions.
having a strong senate. I do not see why
Mr. HIGGINS : Who pays the taxation !
they should. They seem to consider that
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
.the senate will be a body similar to the
I do not know that that is any argument
existing upper house in the various colo-
---both houses will be representative of
nies, and they desire that it should not
the people.
have more power, or even as much power,
as those bodies have at present. Now, by
Mr. HIGGINS : Yes, but the smaller
this clause, they desire that the power to
states have fewer people !
amend a tariff or taxation bill shall be
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
denied to the senate, which we have made We will have fewer members in the house
representative of the whole of the states.
of representatives in consequence of that.
Under the constitution we are creating in The colonies of New South Wales and
this bill, the senate will be far more repre- Victoria will each probably have nearly
sentative of the whole of the people of the four times the number of members that
states than the members of the house of the smaller colonies will have. All that
representatives will be, for the members of
it is desired to give the senate is the
the house of representatives will be elected right of veto. The right of veto is a very
by the people of the states in various small important power, I do not deny that for
divisions; they will be elected subject to a moment, but it is very often impos-
local influences, local quarrels, and preju- sible to exercise it. Necessity may make
dices to a much larger degree, I think it it absolutely necessary that a taxation bill
will be admitted, than will be the case in of some sort shall pass into law, and unless
the election of the whole people of the state the senate are prepared to veto it they will
as one electorate. Therefore, there can be have no power to insist upon any amend-
no reason whatever, on the ground of logic ment of it. As we know very well, from
or common-sense, why this thoroughly our experience in regard to legislation in
representative body—the senate—repre- this continent, the power of veto, although
senting the whole people, and elected by a great one, cannot frequently be exer-
the whole people as one constituency- cised, owing to the force of circumstances.
should not be trusted with as large powers I should like to ask whether a state, as a
as the house of representatives, which will state, has any interest whatever as to the
be elected by various parts of a state sub- way in which it should be taxed ? If bon.
ject to all sorts of influences. I suppose members admit that-if they will admit
no one will deny that among all the powers that a state has some right to say in what
that we are giving the parliament of the way it should be taxed, they cannot very
commonwealth, one of the most important well deny the power of the senate to amend
will be the power of imposing taxation. a taxation bill. As is apparent to every
We are giving to the commonwealth par- one, the number of the representatives of
liament power to impose taxation through- the smaller states, as states, in the house
out the length and breadth of the con- of representatives will be so small, as com-
tinent. We are giving it power to borrow pared with the number of representatives
money for the purposes of the common- of the larger states, that they will not have
wealth. That being so, surely there should any great influence there in deciding the
be, some provision in the bill which will manner and method in which their states
484
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
shall be taxed. Therefore, the only place states which we have to meet in dealing
in which they can have any influence with this question. We have to meet the
in regard to the mode of taxation will constant objection that we are to hand
be through their representatives in the ourselves over body and soul to the large
senate.
states. I think that, to a large extent, is
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What do you
imaginary ; but, at the same time, it has
want equal representation in the senate
to be faced. We all know that the occa-
for ?
sions when the states will vote as states
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: will not be very numerous. My great ob-
There should be no fear on the part of the jection to limiting the senate—and I am
larger states as to the smaller states com- sure it ought to commend itself to hon.
bining against them. That seems to me to members—is this: that it is desired by those
be the argument generally used—that they who want to limit the powers of the senate,
will place themselves in subjection to the to stamp it as an inferior body. The prin-
amaller states. In the first place, it is not cipal objection I have to trying to limit the
easy to get a combination ; it is not easy powers of the senate is that there is a desire
to find the whole of the smaller states
—and it has shown itself in this Conven-
agreeing. Is it not more likely that the tion many times—to take away the
power
smaller states will be altogether dominated
of the senate, and to stamp it as a body
by the larger ones, even though there may
inferior to the house of representatives,
.
be more smaller states than large ones? We were told in Adelaide by some of the
The large populations, the environment, speakers near me--by one of the members
the surroundings, the public opinion of the
from Victoria, I do not remember which, I
place in which the meetings will be held think it was the hon. member, Mr. Tren-
because there can be no doubt that they
with-that it would all depend upon the
will be held in one of the large colonies-
sort of senate we created as to what powers
that the federal capital will be either in
he would give it; that if we made the senate
New South Wales or Victoria--the press,
a body representative of the whole of the
the whole of the influences which are at-
people of the colonies, then he would be
tached to large British communities, will
prepared to give it greater power. What
has happened? We have taken away every-
be quite sufficient to prevent any combina-
tion of the smaller states to do an injus- thing we can from the senate, and we have
tice to the larger. Even if there were such
given nothing in return. The hon member,
Mr. Trenwith, was carried away for the
a combination, I do not believe that they
would be able to carry it out. There-
moment with a generous impulse, and stated
that if we could only get a representative
fore, I say, the larger states have noth-
body in the senate it might be entrusted
ing to fear in regard to combination-
with great powers ; but he thought better
it is merely an idea; nor do I think
of it afterwards. He thought better of it
the sraaller states have much to
to fear
after he found that we were willing to give
from a combination. I do not think there
what he wanted. Then he went back to his
will be any desire on the part of either
former position, and desired that the senate
the larger or smaller states to coerce or do
should be as weak in power as possible.
injustice. These things are imaginary in
Mr. TRENWITH : I never proposed, under
the minds of the people. But there need
any circumstances, to give the senate con-
be no fear, even in imagination, so far as
trol over money matters !
I can see, for the large states; but there
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
is a sort of fear amongst the smaller
It was desired by many hon, members that
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest,
Commonwealth of
485
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the senate should not originate money bills. cessary as would an ordinary appropriation
I do not object to that myself. It is pro- bill involving the carrying on of the ordin-
posed that it shall not have power to amend ary business of the country. The power
any taxation bill. To that I am opposed. of initiation of all taxation is given to the
It must not increase any tax,—these are house of representatives, and is willingly
all concessions to the lower house--and to giyen, also the initiation of all borrowing,
that I agree.
and that house, as I pointed out, has the
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : That is control of the executive government.
no concession; the lower house even cannot Surely these ought to be sufficient powers
increase a tax!
and privileges for that house without hon.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: members desiring to take away the one
It can by message from the Governor. thing that the states want that their re-
The upper house cannot do anything presentatives in the upper house should
even with a message from the Governor. have the power to amend taxation bills.
Again, the upper house has no power It seems to me that those who are opposed
whatever over the executive government. to giving power to the senate desire that
All these things are taken away from the it should be a body not in any way superior
senate, and are given to the house of re- to, if indeed equal to, the existing legisla-
presentatives. Still, that does not satisfy tive councils in the various colonies.
hon, members; they want to take away The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Hear,
the power of amendment, and to give the hear !
house of representatives the sole power of The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
taxation—to provide that the states, as Hon. members do not hesitate to speak
states, shall have no power to say anything with contempt of the legislative councils
in regard to taxation, except to reject it. In of the various colonies. There is generally
fact, as far as I can see, the leaders of what a sneer when anything is said about one
I may call the anti-senate movement in this of the legislative councils. The Legislative
House desire to make that branch of the Council of Victoria certainly has one or two
legislature a sham--a useless and discre- defenders here; but we know that, as a rule,
dited body. Now, what are the powers of all over these colonies the house of represen-
the house of representatives? To begin tatives sneers at, and as far as it can, treats
with it makes and unmakes governinents. with contempt:the legislative council. Is
It has the initiation of all money bills. It
it right that in the constitution we are de-
has control, except as to veto, in regard to sirous of building up, one branch of the
the annual expenditure of the country. legislature should be encouraged to regard
These are very great powers to give. It is with contempt and to sneer at the other
not contended that such powers should be branch ? I said just now that there was
given to the senate. I myself do not con- a tendency on the part of hon. members
tend for them, because I do not see how in this Convention, as well as on the part
you can carry on a system of responsible of hon. memders outside, to so limit the
government if the senate is to have power powers of the senate as to make it a dis-
to amend the annual appropriation bill. credited body. If the powers of the senate
You have already your schemes of taxation, are to be limited and circumscribed in this
and unless you repeal the existing taxation way, would it not be better to sweep it
it would be only a new method you would away altogether? If hon. gentlemen are not
be introducing, having the old one behind prepared to give reasonable powers to the
you, and the measure would not be as ne- senate, a straightforward way of dealing
486
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.
with the matter would be to sweep it there is no power of referendum, and
away altogether. We want no inferior or
it has equal powers with the House of
discredited body in this constitution. We Representatives.
want both branches of the legislature Mr. TRENWITH : It works Tammany
strong; we desire that they should both rings !
live in the respect of the people. Hon. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
members are not satisfied with what has You will find weak spots in any system of
yet been proposed in regard to the senate. government which ever was invented of
Members who are leading the attack upon which designing men will take advantage.
the senate in this Convention, are not Mr. TRENİYITH : I said it was a dis-
satisfied even to have the sole power of credited body!
taxation in the house of representatives. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
They want in addition power to dissolve It is not a discredited body. It is one of
the senate, and also the power of referen- the best legislative bodies in the world.
dum against the decisions of that body. I It has equal power with the House of
repeat that, rather than have provisions of Representatives, and, what is more, it has
that kind in the constitution, it would be the power to control the executive govern-
better to sweep the senate away altogether. ment. Beyond that it has stood the test
Rather than have a weak, useless, dis- of time for over 100 years, and it has
credited body, it would be better not to flourished. Has it in any way injured or
have a senate at all.
brought discredit upon the.country? Has
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Have a
it crippled the liberties of the people? Has
newspaper from each colony !
it impeded the progress of the United
States ?
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
Mr. TRENWITH: Yes !
We have often had placed before us by
hon, members on both sides of this con-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
I say that the contrary is the case. You
vention, by hon. members holding all sorts
of opinions, the Constitution of the United
cannot say that of the Senate of the United
States. It cannot be said of it that it has
States. Is the Senate under that consti-
tution a weak and discredited body?
done any of these things. On the other
hand it has promoted and maintained the
Mr. TRENWITH : It is dişcredited, but it
glory of that great country. It is desired
is not weak !
that there should be some power to dis-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: solve the senate under this constituion,
I think the hon, member knows very little
and that there should be some process of
about it. Some of us have travelled in the
referendum with a view to prevent dead-
United States, and have had opportuni- locks. . This is proposed notwithstanding
ties of observation there. Do the Ameri-
that the senate is an elected house, and
cans tell us that the Senate is a weak and that its members must go before their con-
discredited body? Do those who have stituents once in every three years. I
travelled in America say that? No; they say that if you put either of these powers
say that it is a great and a powerful body. in the constitution, the power of dissolu-
The
very
best and wisest men in the coun-
tion, or the power of referendum, with the
try endeavour to get into it to take part intention of preventing deadlocks, you will
in its deliberations. What is this body instead of preventing them encourage
in the United States? It is elected by them. We have none of these provisions
the legislatures; it cannot be dissolved; in the colonies at the present time. They
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
487
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
are also unknown in Great Britain, and the bill of 1891, and again in connection
they are unknown in the self-governing with this bill at the Adelaide Convention,
colonies of the empire. Why should we strongly supported the power proposed to
endeavour to improve upon those consti- be given to the senate, not only to reject but
tutions by the introduction of provisions to annend
to annend money bills. When the bill of
of this kind which have been found quite 1891 came from the House of Assembly to
unnecessary among the people of the great the Legislative Council in Tasmania, I was
mother country and among the people of charged with the duty of introducing an
these colonies? We are referred in the amendment in that Council by striking out
matter of the referendum to Switzerland, the words 66 and not amend” in order that
but I would prefer to go for example and the bill of 1891 should provide that the
illustration in a matter of this kind to the senate should have power, not only to re-
self-governing colonies of our own empire ject, but also to amend, and on a late occa-
and to the English-speaking people of the sion at Adelaide I voted with a like pur-
United States.
pose. I will not anticipate my present
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : The referendum intention by stating it now; but it may be
of Switzerland is not the referendum which partially gathered by the opinion to which
it is proposed to introduce here !
I give utterance that federation in New
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: South Wales and in Victoria has, since
I am not asking for anything which is un- April last, found very many friends-pub-
reasonable or which can be said to be un- lic men, whose opinions previously had
just. All that I wish to see in this con- been seriously doubted; public men, who
stitution are provisions which will pro- it was feared were making use of federa-
mote our future prosperity. I do not tion for sinister or other purposes, but who
think I need say any more. I hope that by their declarations in their parliaments,
hon. members who voted for the omission and in this convention, have given to many
of these words in 1891, and again at the of us who doubted their purpose the convic-
beginning of this year, will stick to their tion that at any rate they are determined,
colours. We have come back here forti- if practicable, to obtain a true federation,
fied by the action we took on both those and that to obtain such a federation they
occasions, because we are not now speak- may be prepared to forego their own seri-
ing for ourselves ; but we can speak on ous convictions. If, therefore, those of the
behalf of the parliaments of the colonies smaller states who are equally desirous of
we represent.
securing federation approach this subject,
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) it should be with the object of co-operating
[12:21]: It may be presumptuous for repre- with those who have shown a desire to
sentatives of the smaller colonies to enter make concessions on important points, in
thus early into the discussion of the great order that the smaller states may not be
question of the monetary powers of the found working as conspirators, or in actual
:senate; but I am emboldened by my right co-operation, for the purpose of securing
hon. friend who has just resumed his seat what may be regarded as the rights of the
to rise and attempt to express the opinions smaller states. I think it would be a great
which I kuow are held by many of my mistake for the smaller states to be dis-
friends in Tasmania on this subject, and covered so co-operating and so conjoined
before I conclude I intend also to express time after time as to leave the conviction
my own opinion and my purpose of action. upon the mind of the public, when the
I am one of those who, in connection with
great power of the federal parliament shall
488
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
have been brought into existence, that the pelled to ask myself the question whether,
weaker or smaller states would be found in
as we approach the difficulties of our de-
combination then as they have been found liberations, we are not approaching that
in combination in the Convention. I shall period when, if concessions are to be made,
strive, therefore, to avoid anything which they should be made now. I want, there-
may give colour to that opinion, and shall fore, to bear in mind that the smaller
endeavour so to act that the people at states are not to have it all their own
large may see that the interests of the
way, and that neither will the smaller
smaller states are wrapped up in the in- states not be prepared to federate if upon
terests of the larger states, and that we some important matters their views have
are prepared upon a great question of this not been conceded. I am prepared to
kind—as New South Wales was prepared acknowledge that there has been a great
on the great question of free-trade or pro- concession. I agree that it is a right, if
tection---to leave to the judgment of those you please. It was claimed by the Right
who will form the federal parliament the Hon. Sir George Turner, by the hon. and
dealing with very many of these questions, learned member, Mr. Isaacs, and also by
and to trust the higher judgment and wis- many others, that the right existed and
dom of that body, believing that they will that there has been no concession that
be actuated by a desire to secure the good we stand before you to-day as states hav-
of the people as a whole, and not selfishly ing the same power by reason of our senates
to promote the interests of any particular having equal numbers. I claim the right
state. I speak thus, notwithstanding that as much as anyone. But we may claim
I feel that I am charged with a message rights which may not be conceded, and I
from Tasmania in common with my col- can quite understand that there are powers
leagues to maintain as strongly as possible in existence throughout the community,
the intention of securing in this bill the which are backing up the powers of this
power to the senate of amending money Convention, who would have prevented, if
bills. I have said that the 1891 bill was possible, the granting of that as a right.
so amended in the House of Assembly in But we had the speech of the hon. and
Tasmania, and had the bill gone to an issue learned member, Mr. Isaacs, in Victoria,
in the Legislative Council, I was charged admirable in its cause, admirable in its
to secure a similar amendment there; and method, and admirable in its conciliation,
now, coming to this Convention after the which induced his people to give up that
local parliaments have considered the bill for which they had been clamouring.
framed at Adelaide, I am the more con- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : They
vinced that there is a large majority of the have been wanting it for years!
legislature of Tasmania, representing a very The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : They have
large number of the people of Tasmania, been wanting federation, and they need it,
who still feel strongly determined-even I think, as much as any of the colonies ;
as strongly determined as my right hon. but for all that we are none of us prepared
friend, Sir John Forrest to secure for to take federation at too great a price.
the senate the powers which that right You may buy gold too dearly, and you
hon. gentleman has been advocating. But may buy federation too dearly; and, poor
although the legislature and the people though we may be, insignificant though
may desire to maintain the senate in the we may be in Tasmania, it will be found
position of proud importance which the that we are not prepared to buy federation
right hon. gentleman desires, I am com- at too dear a price. But when it comes
[The Hon. Sir P. O. Tysh.
Commonwealth of
489
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to a question of drawing together the two system-although I am not prepared to
ends of the string, to a question as to who say that the power of suggesting which
is to jump in the one direction or the other, casts back on the house of representatives
and when we have had the olive branch held the responsibility of disobedience to their
out to us, as it has been held out to us, by own standing orders—in other words, of
New South Wales, and by those who carried reviewing their own work, and amending
the bill through the Victorian Assembly, it contrary to the parliamentary practice
then it seems to me that the time is ---although I am not prepared to support
coming when, while not concealing our the proposal as being a wiser one; yet,
opinions, we shall concede something to instead of giving to the senate the power
those who have striven to meet us. I shall of amendment, you give them the power
watch what will take place with respect of sending back the bill with their sugges-
to this clause, and shall watch it with the tions to another chamber
hope that some of my colleagues from
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
Tasmania may join those three who on a Which they will treat with contempt !
former occasion voted with the majority
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: We shall
on this particular question. It is not a
soon discover if they are or are not treated
matter upon which there should be a
with contempt. What is the difference
narrow majority—it is now a matter on
which we should either reverse that posi- rejecting your suggestion ?
between rejecting your amendment and
tion or make the majority much more
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : The
powerful--and I trust that the speeches
difference between "tweedledum" and
which will be delivered on this occasion
"tweedledee " !
will induce many to change the opinions
which they had, and to recognise that the
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Surely the
difference is as much as that between
time is coming for some concession. It is
tweedledum" and "tweedledee"
» ?
a very important matter that the senate
shall have the full power of rejecting
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
money bills. The senate will recognise the The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : Will it be
paramountimportance of that power, which contemptuous for the house of representa-
is embodied in our bill, and that they are tives to send back a measure with a sug-
not to be regarded as the nonentities to gestion? It surely would be equally con-
which my right hon. friend, Sir John
temptuous for them to send back the bill
Forrest, refers. But having that power, with an amendment? The position re-
they will also have the power of making mains the same. If need be, there can be
suggestions; and the more I think of the a conference between the two branches of
power of making suggestions, the more I the legislature. Therefore, I hold that
am disposed to think that it is absolutely whilst
you
have first of all the extrava-
the power of amendment.
gant power of rejection by the senate,
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : Oh, you have the minor power of suggest-
no!
The kon. member knows nothing ing which to my mind is equivalent to
about it!
amendment.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Follow the The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Oh,
practice; and, although in the teeth of the
strong opinions formed by our own re- The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH:I am quite
spected Clerk of the Council, Mr. Nowell, prepared to magnify the position of our
I am not prepared to say it is a good senate, as our right hon. friend, Sir John
no !
490
Commonwealth of [14 SEPT.,. 1897.] Australia Bili.
!
בת
Forrest, has done. We have magnified bold, or of capital value. The great masses
the senate in that we have lifted it from of people have been excluded from repre-
the position of numbers, and from the sentation in the Legislative Council.
position of representation which the second An HON. MEMBER: Where?
chamber holds now in connection with our The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: Through-
local legislatures. We are in the habit of
out Australia.
regarding the opinion of our local legisla-
Mr. LYNE : But in Tasmania are you
tive councils with less respect than we
not elected by property-holders ?
shall regard the opinion of our senate. The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : Partly so ;
Why? Because they are but representa- but our House of Representatives is repre-
tives of a minor number of the people, and sentative of the great masses of the people.
of certain class interests, mostly. Victoria
If I am not interrupted I will just come
may claim what she will with respect to to the same point, that so far as your com-
her Legislative Council after the last im-
monwealth parliament is concerned, you
portant amendment of its Constitution ;
will have two bodies of men chosen by
but there still remains, with respect to
the same class of persons and the same
some of the legislative councils of Austral-
numbers of persons, and having made that
asia, the fact that they are nominee; and important amendment in the old bill, that
if they are not nominee, there still remains
instead of your members being nominated
the important fact that they are elected
or appointed by your legislatures, you will
by a very small number of the people, and have them the representatives of the people,
generally that number is selected from a
having secured their suffrages--and they,
class of property holders.
having secured their suffrages, will secure
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : their respect, and most likely their affec-
There is no harm in that !
tion, and so you will have two bodies of
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : No; there men holding correlatively the same respect
is no harm in it. I have had the pleasure
from the people.
of respecting the opinions of the Legisla- The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
tive Council, and I have also had the op- The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : I grant the
portunity and necessity of struggling very right hon, member that, having raised up
hard against some of their opinions; I so respected and respectable a body, you
have not only known them to stand in the might give them equal power.
way of progress, but I have also known
The Hon. H. DOBSON : I should think
them to be exceedingly useful. You can-
not, however, obtain from the peoples of The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : But I am
Australasia respect for a body which is, not prepared at the present moment to
after all, but representative of classes, or wreck federation for the purpose of
of a class.
senate securing that power.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
What sort of a class?
Don't be afraid !
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : Chiefly the
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I am not
monetary class, the property class.
expressing any fear, but the time is com-
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: ing, I feel sure, for some concessions to
Every householder has a vote!
be made by the smaller states.
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: There must The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
be a certain amount of rental, or of lease- We have been conceding all along!
so !
[The Hom. Sa P. O. Fush.
Conamonwealth of
491
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Austicilia Bill.
1
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: When my portance, and, at the Adelaide session of
right hon, friend points out where we have the Convention, it was debated at length,
made any special, important concession, I and with a thoroughness worthy of the
shall be very glad to hear him; but I do subject and of the occasion. I, myself,
recognise that there has has been a very shared in that discussion, so that, probably,
important division taken in this Chamber I need hardly assure hon, members that
during the last few days—a division with I am perfectly alive to the gravity of the
such a majority as I little expected and question, and to the seriousness of the
that has inspired me with greater con- issues involved. I wish to say that I ad-
fidence that as we proceed with the bill here entirely to the views which I then
we shall be drawing nearer and nearer sought to enforce. It appears to me that
together, and not finding ourselves more the direct power of amendment is of great
and more separated. I shall watch the importance to the strength, and to what
progress of the measure with the hope is, perhaps, of as much consequence, the
that those of us who represent the smaller dignity of the senate. I agree with the
states may be found even on this matter Right Hon. Sir John Forrest that to give
voting with those who represent the larger up this power is, to a certain extent, an
states.
acknowledgement of inferiority to the
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : house of representatives with regard to a
We will not always be small !
certain class of bills. I think that my
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I can quite right hon. friend did not use language too
understand my right hon. friend who is strong when he spoke upon the point, and
expecting toloom considerably larger. He is
possibly it may be that, to the people of
looming large already, and so is his colony. the less populous colonies, it may look as
But Tasmania also looms large. Hon. gen though the senate has been lopped of a
tlemen who laugh at the idea of Tasmania
limb, or, to some extent, maimed, if this
looming large would not do so if they hap-
power is taken away. But, adhering as I
pened to hold a thousand Mount Bischoffs,
do to these views, I have come to the con-
a thousand Mount Lyalls, a thousand
elusion that this power is not absolutely
Golden Gates, or a thousand Roseberys.
essential to the efficient exercise of the
They would admit that Tasmania looms
functions of the senate. My belief is, and
large, and that there is laid up there a store-
I wish to put my views in the very
fewest
house which we are now exposing, and
possible words, that, even shorn of this
which, I am perfectly satisfied, will in a
power, the senate may still hold with effect
few years place our colony in a position of
a great and patriotic position in the coun-
greater importance than that which it has
hitherto occupied. When she occupies
cils of the nation we are going to create.
I think so the more, because after a very
that position she will, I feel sure, be a
member of the Commonwealth of Australia, thoughtful, and, I am sure hon. members
and I shall not regret that the senate, of
will believe me when I say very anxious,
which her six senators will form part, will
consideration, I have come to the conclu-
have the power to defeat a taxing bill or
sion that the safeguards provided in the
an appropriation bill, and the power of bill as it now stands are of the very highest
suggesting alterations and amendments, value. I believe that the provisions which
although it does not secure the absolute we inserted during our Adelaide session
recognition of the right to amend.
were most carefully considered, and that,
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:41]: short of retaining to the senate the power
This is a question of the very greatest im- of amendingtaxation bills and the ordinary
1
492
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
appropriation bills, it appears to me that and again in Adelaide this year. I consider
the scope of the senate's control over that the concessions to which the hon.
finance is sufficiently large to enable it to member, Sir Philip Fysb, referred, have
exercise a very strong and very satisfac- been all on one side. So far from hon.
tory power in the state. Under these cir- gentlemen having sacrificed their views in
cumstances, I have resolved to support most important particulars in order to meet
the clause as it stands as the outcome of us, they have given away nothing at all.
our deliberations at Adelaide. In my The more we meet them, the more they ask
opinion, it will not materially weaken the for concessions. Directly we make a con-
senate.
cession—which some of them represent to
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : It be the only concession they want they
will build up an inferior body!
make that a ground for demanding another.
Mr. SYMON: There is undoubtedly the Even now, with the money clauses, they
slight blemish to which the hon. member have weakened the senate until this unfor-
has referred. The senate will be an in- tunate suggestion came from Tasmania,
ferior body, but inferior only in the sense
and we have to go back to the first prin-
that it is not absolutely co-ordinate with ciples upon which federation should be
the house of representatives. But if I en- founded before we arrive at a true concluz-
tertained more doubts than I entertain on
sion, I feel very much that the mere
the points which I have briefly indicated, physical weight of the great states is telling
I should still take the course which I now upon the Convention even now.
propose for myself. On this great ques- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The ;
tion I do not wish to act the part of the weight of their arguments !
boy who looked for a star in the grass,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Al-
and when he found a diamond threw it
though opposed to the first principles on
Like my hon. friend who has just
which any proper federation was ever
sat down, I want to have federation. It
established ; although the representatives
seems to me that the irrevocable moment
of the larger states ask for concessions
in this movement has arrived, and I wish
that they never give to others; although
to be guided, as I indicated the other day, they have managed more and more to
on this and all questions of greater or less
bring this federation on to the lines of a
consequence, by the desire to remove every
consolidation, still I notice hon. members
obstacle, whether of feeling or of sub-
drop off one after another. The sweet
stance, so long as it is not entirely essen-
surroundings, coupled with the great power
tial to the progress of this great cause. I
of the people we are amongst, and the
do so, because I have an assured hope of
great states they represent, are proving
the greatness and the prosperity which
too much for us. One by one the poor
the success of the cause is inevitably
birds are fluttering down, and soon,
destined to secure.
Therefore, without
afraid, there will not be one left.
further argument on my part, and with-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID :
out any qualification, or any desire to
know how others are going to vote, I
An Hon. MEMBER : Do not let them
declare that I will support the clause as
put you down!
it stands.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I will
I
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South not just yet. We have now got to the
Australia) [12:48]: I am going to main practical consideration of this power of
tain the position which I took up in 1891, amendment about which we had so much
away.
I am
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
493
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
discussion. When we were at the Con- Is it not their mission to do the best they
vention in 1891 there was no substantial can for their own constituents ?
fight on the question of equal representa- Mr. HIGGINS: No!
tion in the senate—that was in fact con-
Mr. LYNE : It should be !
ceded as a necessary condition.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Is it
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : As a postu- their mission then to sacrifice their own
late ?
constituents ?
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: As a
Mr. HIGGINS : To do their best for all
postulate.
Australia!
Mr. HIGGINS : It never will be again! The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Is it
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : You have got their mission' to do their best for all Aus-
so much that you want more !
tralia including their own constituents ?
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It Mr. HIGGINS: Certainly !
was well understood, and there were mem- Mr. LYNE : It should be !
bers as capable of discussing it as the hon.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
gentleman who says “ Hear, hear.”. Every glad that is admitted. If that is the case
point of view was carefully thought out;
what is the good of talking about their
but the history of all federations established
having to give something away? If they
amongst people in our condition pointed
do so it is throwing a sprat to catch a
inevitably to the one condition, that the
mackerel. They must do their duty to
states must have equal representation. It
their constituents, and when it is for the
was only when we came to this question well-being of their constituents that they
as to the money power that the fight began.
should make some temporary sacrifice, it
The question was whether there was to be
will be with a view of producing greater
à government responsible to the lower
benefits for their people.
house, or a government responsible to both
An Hon. MEMBER : That has been our
houses. Now, by the cleverness of the
gentlemen representing the larger popu-
object always !
lations, the whole battle-ground has been
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
shifted. We are thrown back a stage. We
is the position of all of us; therefore,
have had a big fight, which has been re- when we say we must make concessions,
ferred to triumphantly by the hon. mem-
and you must make concessions, we may
ber, Sir Philip Fysh. He seems to think all have to submit to immediate sacrifices;
it is something to be proud of; but it was but we all hope a reward will come to us
all a matter of course. We have had a from that line of action. What is the
magnificent fight over nothing. After we position now? We have got expressions
have secured it, we are told that, out of con- of quite different understandings as to the
sideration for the victory which we have effect of this provision, and as to how it
gained, we should make concessions. What will work out, from gentlemen who repre-
right have we to make any concessions at sent the larger colonies, and from the hon.
all? We ask for no favour, and if we did member, Mr. Symon. The hon. member,
ask we should not get it. I should like to Mr. Symon, says that if the present bill
know what mission the hon. gentlemen is preserved it will give more power to the
who represent New South Wales and Vic- senate over financial questions.
toria have from their constituents to give The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
us anything to which we are not entitled. He did not say so in Adelaide !
494
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
14 SEPT., 1897.]
1
:
+
The Hon. Sir J. W. ĐOWNER: I am authorities of the senate were very much
only dealing with the debate that is now larger than those of the house of represen-
taking place. The hon. member says it tatives?
Here we
are taking another
will give more power to the senate; but course—we are not taking away the great
we have heard from the other side that it
powers of the senate because we have not
will not give more power. We are told created them ; but we are refusing to grant
that it will not be submitted to that the those great powers which constitute the
house which represents the people should dignity of the senate there.
be dictated to or interfered with by the [The Chairman left the chair at 1 p.m. The
house which represents the states, so that
Committee resumed at 2 p.m.]
we begin this friendly compact with a The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I was
misunderstanding. As I said before, the saying that as we are going we are more and
understanding by the Convention of the more frittering away. the essentials which
constitution is quite as important as the are at the root of a true federation.
We
letter of it. We each interpret what is have had the argument of expediency-a
done in his own way, and we have the good enough argument to use in the way
press in the different colonies giving their of an assertion that unless you agree to
own interpretation. Instead of having the this, and unless you agree to that, we will
best and most thorough of understandings not have federation-and I say there must
as to what we are doing it is evident that be a time, surely, in which people will say
there is a thorough misunderstanding. “then we will not agree to federation."
The position I have always taken up, and We are met here; the climate is beautiful
which I intend to maintain, although no at present; the scenery is delightful; the
doubt I shall be defeated, is that the hospitality is perfect; and we feel disposed
senate and the house of representatives to agree more and more. I assure hon.
ought to be co-ordinate houses with co-ordi- members that I myself am speaking with
nate authority, and that they should only the greatest difficulty, because I feel over-
cease to be co-ordinate where some ques- whelmed by the surroundings which are
tion of convenience would make a depar- antagonistic to me, and yet so friendly. I
ture from it necessary.
As far as the feel more killed by the kindness of my sur-
origination of taxation bills is concerned, roundings than I should be affected by
it might be convenient that you should action of a different character, and so I
bave one house in which they should speak under an effort, trying to put myself
originate: Aboat that I care but little. in the cooler position of being at home
When the American Constitution was with ordinary surroundings, and to think
established, and when it was provided that of this matter as the people of South Aus-
bills imposing taxation must originate in tralia and the smaller populations will
the house of representatives, that was not think of it with all our delightful environ-
done with any view or intention of making
ments absent from us.
I am, from that
the senate in any way inferior to the house point of view, trying to look coldly at the
of-representatives. It was a mere provi- question and yet doing so under great dif-
sion of convenience as to the house in ficulty. The people look back to the history
which certain measures should be mtro- of past federations, and they say, the very
duced, and to some extent, possibly, it was basis was the recognition of the states as
copied from the British Constitution with states the recognition of the people as
which they were familiar. But beyond one people. "You will not get federation
that, was there any question that the without this," said a gentleman to ne not
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.) Australia Bill. 495
very long ago. You will not get federa- destroyed it, because the law said they
tion at all with it, because, even if you could not." Who was to resist them?
get it, in my opinion it will not be fed- If the senate were the cause of all the
eration. I have no particular objection trouble, who could have stood in the way
from my own point of view to a consoli- of that army in the destruction of it?
dation of the colonies. I can see an im- They did make material alterations in
mense advantage which might come from the Constitution. They had the power
the centralisation of certain offices, and the of wiping the constitution out by mere
saving of a vast amount of expense both physical force, without the aid of reason,
in legislative authority and in administra- and in utter disregard of the constitution;
tion. If our mission were to consider the but so far from that, after all these years
best scheme under which we can consoli- and years of experience of the working of
date all the colonies of Australia into one this most mischievous constitution, which
commonwealth, I certainly should not wronged the people for the benefit of rings
refuse, if elected, to be a party to that after all this, after being forced into a
mission ; but it is not our mission now, most cruel civil war, with its endless
and in the degree in which we make this trouble and bloodshed, they did not turn
attempt at federation tend towards con- upon the power which had produced the
solidation, to that extent we are false to injury, but they dignified and ennobled it.
our trust, and are not doing what we were I say again, as I said the other day, what
sent here to do. That will apply equally is the good of writing to the newspapers,
to all the colonies. We must come back or of essayists, preparing elaborate articles,
to this: we will not do this; if you will or of gentlemen twenty or thirty or a hun-
not concede this we will not concede that.
dred years afterwards writing very clever
We are business men who are talking books to prove that what was proved to
here; we are not children with playthings; demonstration then was not true? This
we are not talking about concessions ; we is practically the argument I had to meet
are not talking about conferring bene- in Adelaide, and which everyone has to
fits or receiving them. We are here to meet everywhere: “ The American Con-
do what is fair and right for the bene- stitution is the most corrupt constitution
fit of all, and that is the point of view in the world ; the American Senate is the
we have to pursue.
What is all this
most corrupt body in the world. Look at
objection to the only object-lesson we So-and-so's book on the subject; look at
have, the American Constitution | Where the article in such a paper,
and
you
will
does all this objection come from? I ob- find all that is so." The American Senate
serve that some writer in the press the I expect has done wrong, seeing, unfortu-
other day thought he would expose the nately, that it has to be composed of fallible
fallacy of my suggestion here that the human beings; but that the American
American Constitution stood a severe test, Senate has not always been a body held in
in that it remained powerful in the face highest respect: not only in America but in
of a victorious army which could have the civilised world, I absolutely deny; and
destroyed it in a moment. To me, and to above all things the American Senate. is
a good many people, I think that argu- an institution suitable to the American
ment was, conclusive on the subject of the people, which has not remained simply
American Constitution. What is the good on account of their constitutional diffi-
of going back to the letter of the law, culties in making an alteration, but re-
and saying, “the army could not have mained intact, when the constitution was
2
496
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
>
disrupted, and when there was nothing of the senate, between the representatives, ,
left but war and the power of main force. who are the people as a whole, and the
I defy anybody seriously to contend, under states which have to preserve their indi-
these circumstances, that the Ameri- viduality-it is this perfect balance which
can Constitution has not worked well, has brought about that great result that,
has not worked harmoniously to the people. in all the troubles and disputes which have
Has it worked to the ennoblement of the arisen between the Senate and the House
smaller states as against the larger states. of Representatives, a question of state
We have two lines of argument. We have rights has, practically, never arisen. That
it said in one breath that the effect of this
is the guarantee we want. We want our
will be to establish a constitution similar constitution established on a logical and
to that in America, will be, as it has been sound basis, and above all, we want our
in America, to produce an undue ennoble- constitution established on a basis con-
ment of the smaller states to the degrada- sistent with the solemn duty we are sent
tion of the larger ones. We are in the same here to discharge, which is not to establish
breath told, and by identically the same a constitution which must end in consoli-
persons, that it is quite stupid to have all dation, but to establish a constitution
this trouble, to have all this discussion, to which will preserve the entity of the colo-
have all this ill-feeling which may be en- nies whatever may occur. It is said you
gendered, for the purpose of producing a have really got the same powerin the power
body which will not bother · about state of suggestion. Of course, we shall have that
right when it is established, because they power vehemently attacked before long.
say that, in America, where there is equal Thepower which the gentlemen on the other
representation on the part of all the states, side say we have got, they will industriously
small as well as large, the question of prevent us from having in a few minutes,
state rights never arises. We have these
and they will say,
- What more do you
gentlemen, from both points of view, want? You have got in effect the same
showing us how very futile all this argu- power.” When they have convinced me
ment is, and how very unnecessary.
Be- by their eloquence, hy their friendliness,
cause a body is established on reasonable, and by their conviviality, that it is all
sensible, aye, judicial lines, which has
right, they will say,“We will not have that;
worked out so excellently in the results, we are going to strike that out.” That is
that all state differences are forgotten, and what will happen, as a matter of course.
when disputes occur they have so become The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That will not
one people that questions of state rights happen in this clause !
are never involved—because that body, The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : If my
so well established, whose basis was so per- vision is inaccurate, no one will rejoice
fect, and whose vindication has been so more than myself ; but, supposing it does
supreme, has worked well, therefore a body happen, it is not the same, it is not meant
established on no logical basis at all, ex- to be the same thing. I admit that it may
cept the sacrifice of the entity of the smaller work out as the same thing. We can make
populations, will bring aboutjust thesamere- the constitution; we can create conven-
sults. Why, sir, the very excellence of the tions of the constitution; we may cause
working of the American Constitution pro- great ill-feeling, instead of great good-feel-
ceeds from the excellence of the balance of ing at the initiation, and misunderstand-
its establishment. It is the perfect balance ing instead of a perfect understanding :
which is preserved by means of the strength but, as to limiting the manner in which
[The Hon. Sir J, W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
497
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
the constitution will evolve itself, we are so far from giving the senate less powers,
absolutely powerless. The constitution will if I saw my way I would give it greater
be strong and effective just in proportion powers than the house of representatives,
to the attractiveness it affords to the best because the house of representatives is
intellects of the colonies; but the best in- bound to be marvellously powerful. Re-
tellects of the colonies will certainly not be presenting the great body of the people,
attracted to a body which has no particular having both numbers and influence, with
premiums to offer. I do not mean premiums the pressure of public opinion that will be
in the sense of worldly advancement or behind it all, its power will be almost abso-
money, I mean premiums in the sense of lute, and our senate will not have, like
authority which can be exercised. Unless the American Senate, those large outside
the senate has that power, the best intel- powers which practically give it its dig-
lects will, as a matter of course, go to the nity, and enable it to retain the equality
place which really has it, and the result of its position. We want to establish an
will be a gradual degradation of the senate, abiding federation, founded on the only
as is intended by some, until it becomes a means on which a federation will proceed.
body less than the House of Lords, until Our determination must be to have the
it becomes a body which has the physical states and the people equally represented.
power of saying "no," but annexed to it, Anything short of that must end in a con-
as a condition of its existence, that it solidation or will end in difficulty. As the
must not say it. We are truer federation righthon. member, Sir John Forrest, pointed
ists, and much less narrow than some of out, this is only one of a string. When you
these gentlemen ; we want to approach have emasculated the powers of the senaté, ,
the consideration of this question from a when you have said that it is not to have
broad, constitutional standpoint, without equal authority with the other house, you
which the federation cannot be established have not done then. You have to bave what
and cannot continue. That is the point
That is the point they are pleased to calla cure for deadlocks,
of view from which we are acting, and
which means more coercion on the senate;
which we are asking them to adopt. From and after you have gradually frittered
what I observed in the voting last night away all the authority of the senate that
and from some defections I have seen to- was intended to be established on some-
day, I know that my views will not be thing like the lines of the American Senate
carried. I must not be understood to use -after you have frittered away the greater
this favourite method, which comes par- part of its authority—after you have put
ticularly from one colony-I forget the the whole management of public concerns
name of it—that unless you do this we in the form of what is called constitutional
will have no more to do with it.
government—that is, a government respon-
have passed the portmanteau stage. I sible to only one house--you are not satis-
am not going to speak at all in that spirit, fied, and something more has to be done,
because I do not feel in that way ; but which is the institution of a national refer-
still I believe that we are not beginning endum. After all, this concession, which
well unless we establish our houses on a Sir Philip Fysh so gratefully accepted, this
basis of practically co-ordinate authority. magnificent sacrifice of prejudice and in-
If we put the brand of inferiority on one terest on the part of the larger colonies, is,
at the start, with all the surroundings to in my opinion, a stronger and stronger
induce inferiority, it will degenerate. assertion of right inconsistent with the
When speaking in Adelaide, I said that, constitution of a true commonwealth, and,
We
2 M
498
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14. SEPT., 1897.1
in all, is a substantial refusal to recognise Downer, with great attention. I can assure
the authority of the states as states, through him that he is. quite under a delusion if
refusing to recognise the right of the senate he thinks that his surroundings have at
to dissent from the house of representa- all tempered the strength of his views
tires; because that is to be the end of it upon the great question of state rights. I
all. After you have shorn the senate of have never heard him more eloquent, more
these authorities one by one, after you carnest, or more explicit in the view which
have made it less and less powerful, after he takes of that subject. I think we
you have by this bill deprived it of its must all give up at once the idea of being
individuality so plainly that he who runs able to frame what is called a perfect con-
can see it, and there can be no mistake stitution, that we must give up the idea.
whatever as to the provision being there of arriving at a settlement which, in the
after you have done that, you say, having opinion of everyone, will be perfect. The
gone through all this solemn business, after more time we take up in aiming at any-
first giving authority and then taking it thing of the kind the less likely we are to
away, or at all events a large part of it, do much good. We must get rid of phrases
we have one little thing more which is of what the term “federal” means, of
necessary in the event of your standing what the term “ commonwealth” means,
out against us with such authority as is and, to some extent, we must get rid of
left to you, the power of being able to send the veneration which, my hon. friend seems
you to a national election of the whole of to entertain for the Senate of the United
Australia, in which you smaller communi- States. We are framing a constitution:
ties will have the advantage of your num- to-day under vastly different circumstances,
bers. I do not put forward this point of and I hope I am not too radical when I
view in order to obstruct the measure ; but say with perhaps considerably more en-
it is a point of view which will occur to a lightenment than was vouchsafed to the
great many persons in the smaller colo- framers of the American Constitution. I
nies. Some of us in our enthusiasm for think we must all admit that during the
federation, with our belief in humanity, past hundred years mankind has advanced
with our confidence that after all we will tosome extent in the perception of methods
do justice to each other, might be induced, of government.
even if a constitution were established The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : That is
which is thought to be not on the soundest my argument !
lines, to use our best influence to have it The Right Hon. G. H. REID: And
affirmed. But our influence is, after all, even in federal matters, as to improre-
very limited. It is the great body of the ments in a federal constitution. My hon.
people who have to settle these questions, friend derives great comfort from the asser
and it is entirely from my feeling as to the tion that no one has ever seriously pro
true basis upon which any federation should posed to amend the Constitution of the
exist, and, secondly, as to the method by United States, that is to say, no one within
which the popular assent sliould be ob- the political circle. My hon. friend is
tained, that I take up the position I do at surely not so ingenuous as he wishes us to
the present time in hoping that this amend- believe when he makes such an assertion.
ment will be carried.
Why is it that no one within the circle of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New politics in America has seriously proposed
South Wales) [224]: I have listened to to alter the American Constitution, espe-
the speech of the hon. member, Sir John cially with reference to the powers of the
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
499.
[14 SEPT:, 1897.]
Arustralia Bill.
smaller states:? Because it would mean but no one expects a house to give satisfac-
political annihilation to do anything of the. tion to a great democracy which happens by
kind. There is a vast body of outside mere accident to be exposed to thatobserva-
opinion in the United States which con- tion. So far as we in Australia are con-
demns as monstrous the present basis of cerned to-day we have a very simple task,
the senate-utterly monstrous, and incon- and that is to make this constitution as
sistent with any modern ideas of represen- perfect as we can, always bearing in mind
tation, representative government, and even that it will never become a constitution
federal government, perhaps. But what unless the people of the various colonies
leader of a great party in the United States can be induced by a majority to accept it.
-Mr. McKinley or Mr. Cleveland—would Now it is entirely upon that consideration
seriously go before the American people that I have given up a large amount of
with the proposition that the powers of the ideas since I really became earnest in this
smaller states should be interfered with ? federal movement. It is not that I do
It would mean the destruction of the man's not still entertain, though, perhaps, not
political position, because the smaller states quite so strongly, many of those views as
hold, without doubt, the balance of power a matter of individual conviction ; but the
in the Senate. There is no doubt that the more in earnest one becomes about the
Senate has worked wonderfully well iņ past grand object itself, the more a sense of
years; but as time goes on, even public proportion asserts itself, and the more we
opinion is coming to the conclusion that are disposed and prepared to give up even
the Senate of the United States has been cherished convictions under the overmas-
vastly overpraised. A more humiliating tering desire to bring this enterprise to a •
or dishonorable position was never occu- happy conclusion. I think the amendment
pied by a representative body than that of my right hon. friend, Sir John Forrest,
occupied by the Senate of the United is a most calamitous one: It is throwing
States within the past few months when us completely back. We bad this great fight
the details of the tariff were being ad- out in a much simpler forin in Adelaide.
justed, and when senators are supposed The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
on high authority to have made enormous Not the same !
fortunes out of the varying phases of ex- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Pretty
pectation as to how that particular tariff much the same,, except that it was
would be finally settled. I assert, without broader fight than this.
the slightest fear, that the reputation of The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER :
the Senate of the United States is vastly The Right Hon. G. H. REID: My
lower to-day than it was twenty Fears ago;
hon.. friend treated the matter from his
and deservedly so. One of the reproaches point of view with absolute fairness and
of that body-and I think it is a reproach force, but in Adelaide I remember the
--is that nowadays it is mainly composed proposition over which we had the great
of men of enormous personal fortunes: debate was a proposition that the senate
No one objects to that in itself; but sliould be entitled to amend all money
it is absurd to say that a senate composed bills:
of millionaires can be said to faitlifully, or A:n HON. MEMBER: No!
in any way adequately, represent all the The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Except
various beliefs and classes of a people like the annual appropriation bill. With that
those of the United States. The members exception, I think it was a general power
are none the worse for having the millions; of amendment,
500
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
1
Mr. McMILLAN : The present amend- am dealing now with the general principles
ment leaves out the appropriation bill! which are recognised by the Australian
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Exactly. people. The more we keep in mind those
Practically we have come back again into principles and habits of thought, the more
the dispute we had at Adelaide.
likely we are to frame a constitution which
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : We those people will accept. If the constitu-
have also had the question of equal repre-
tions of these colonies are studied it will
sentation over again !
be found that there is no second chamber
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is which has the right to amend a bill impos-
quite right, and no one can complain of ing taxation.
it, because that is exactly what this final
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : Tasmania !
session is for. Perhaps, on reflection, I
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do
ought to withdraw the rernarks I made in
not know anything about the islands in
that sense, because every one is entitled
the South Seas. Perhaps the fact men-
at this final sitting to have a thorough
tioned by the hon. gentleman is the
reconsideration of all these important strongest proof I can give of the iniquity
points. So that I am afraid I rather spoke
of such a proceeding. We all know how
without thought in the remarks I made.
beautiful Tasmania is, and how promising
This particular amendment claims for the
are its mineral resources ; but we have
senate a power to amend bills imposing
never yet heard a political writerquote Tas-
taxation. My right hon. friend, Sir John
mania as an example of constitutional go-
Forrest, as we all know, is a typical English-
vernment. I am glad to see my hon. friend
man, as a rule. I do not know a man who is
is here to give us the benefit of the experi-
more thoroughly saturated with the proper
ence of the Tasmanians, and I must cor-
ideas of an Englishman than is the Right
rect myself under my hon, friend's obser-
Hon. Sir John Forrest. But when you
vation, and say that in Tasmania it is a
come to framing a constitution he is a down-
fact that the Legislative Council has the
right Yankee. He is always talking about
right of amending taxation bills.
the Senate of the United States. He is
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : They
always talking about the great, dignified,
exercise the right!
strong Senate of America. Now, we are not
framing a constitution for the American
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : But is
people. We are framing a constitution
it a right which the lower house concedes
for the Australian people, and, with refer- freely to them ?
ence to the control of public moneys, and
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : They make a
especially the right of- imposiog taxation,
formal protest!
what are the principles which are tho- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: This little
roughly embedded in the minds of Aus- episode has enlightened me completely as
tralians to-day? They bear very strongly to the attitude of my hon. friend, Mr. Adye
upon this proposition, and I think I make Douglas, on matters of this sort. Having
a fair observation when I say that many turned the political machine upside down
of those who, in this Convention, to-day, in Tasmania, he cannot understand any
are prepared to take the view of the Right other disposition of it. Well, we are not
Hon. Sir John Forrest, if the matter were going to turn it upside down in the federal
discussed in their own colonies, as between parliament.
the two houses in their own colonies, would The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: We
absolutely take the view which I hold. I are not dealing with a legislative council
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
501
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
now; we are dealing with a senate elected political constitutions of the difference be-
by the whole body of the people !
tween the powers of the two houses. Upon
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am what principle does that difference rest?
referring at present, not to the federal It rests on the simple well-known propo-
body proposed, but to the actual state of sition wliich springs from the notorious
things in the different colonies, and I am facts of the case, that in taxation, and
referring, therefore, to the Legislative especially as taxation is known in Aus-
Council and the Legislative Assembly of tralia, inasmuch as the whole of the people
Tasmania. But, rather than make any re- are subject to the taxes, and have to pay
ference to the country which possesses so them, it is in a peculiar sense the right of
irascible a representative, I will give up the representatives of those who are taxed
Tasmania, and refer to the other colonies. not only to prescribe the form in which they
In New South Wales, Queensland, Vic- shall be taxed, but also to dispose of the
toria, and South Australia, and, so far as moneys which are the proceeds of that taxa-
we can pierce the mist of distance, Western tion. That principle is not an Australian
Australia, there is an absolute distinction principle. It is an old principle of the Brit-
in the constitutions between the rights of ish Constitution as we understand it now,
the house which more directly represents
which took a long time and a great many
the great body of the people and the rights battles to establish in the old country, but
of the house which either represents the which is now so firmly established in Great
people in some less universal form or is Britain that the House of Lords, powerful
constituted by appointment.
as they are to reject a scheme of home rule
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : for Ireland, although millions of the elec-
They have not the same franchise !
tors of Great Britain look on that as a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I do burning question-fearless as they are in
not know how that helps me at present, dealing with attempted innovations on the
but I should think that my right hon. structure of the constitution—pass almost
friend, if the upper house attempted to without a word, certainly without a divi-
amend any of his money bills, would ex- sion, measures of taxation which seem
press himself in language which would en- almost directly aimed at their class, and
tirely satisfy any of us. We should then wbich reduce the financial position of
see the political Nelson coming down to the wealthy classes, of the landed estate
the quarter deck, and talking to this un- owners, of England, to an extent which
fortunate body in Western Australia which some of them look upon as little short of
presumed to speak otherwise than as the absolute ruin.
right hon. gentleman dictated.
Mr. McMILLAN : But have they not
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN Forrest: practically given up the right of veto ?
They have the right of suggestion !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Exactly.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: We are I pointed that out as an illustration.
not speaking of that at present. I think Mr. McMILLAN: But we are giving the
we have heard that several times from the right of veto, which they have given up!
right hon. gentleman. The right hon. gen- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: In deal-
tleman, I think, admits it is a farce. So ing with this question, I wish to get down,
that I come back to this : That with the first of all, to the main principle of the
possible exception of one colony, not the matter, as we understand it in Australia.
most populous, the peoples of Australia It is necessary, after that, no doubt, to
are accustomed to a recognition in their begin to deviate.
502
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 Sept., 1897.]
1
Mr. GLYNN : The House of Lords did and Victoria, we are really fighting the
not give it up themselves. The Commons battle of the people of the other colonies
passed a resolution in 1860 that they must in days to come.
give it up!
Mr. SYMON : And vice versa !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I should The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I do not
talk all day if I were to go into academic understand my lion. and learned friend's
detail about resolutions passed this year phrase. I wish to discard the mere geo-
or that. The broad consideration remains graphical terms which are so burning to-
that, in practice and fact, the House of day. Iwant to recommend the views which
Lords do not interfere with a bill impos- I have, not as views which happen to suit
ing taxation, although the taxation itself the colony to which I belong to-day, but as
is odious and injurious to the last degree views which will, infallibly, be fair, what-
to the members of the House of Lords ever the vicissitudes of population may be
as was shown in the treatment of Sir in time to come. Let us suppose that in
William Harcourt's measure, some two or times to come the positions are reversed-
three years ago.
that instead of New South Wales and Vic-
An HON. MEMBER : The succession toria predominating in population, Queens-
duties!
land and Western Australia predominate in
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes, population over the other members of the
in his general financial scheme. That is group. My argument will apply just as well
the principle on which our constitutions to such a state of things as to the present
rest, and I have to say that that is a prin- case of Victoria and New South Wales.
ciple which the people of Australia-I The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: The
mean the people of the different colonies right hon. gentleman does not expect that!
--would be the last to give up in the The Right Hon. G. H. REID : There
management of their own colonial affairs. is nothing to prevent it, especially if my
I think that that is a fair representation right hon. friend continues to govern
West-
of the case. I have, I admit, to come ern Australia-nothing to prevent it, be-
away from that state of things, and to cause we are prepared to believe almost
admit that in framing a federal constitu- everything that the right hon. gentleman
tion we must deviate. We cannot frame has said, and are not likely to go and look
the same sort of constitution as we would at his colony ourselves.
frame if it were a constitution for a uni- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I
fied Australia. I have never denied that. hope the right hon, member will !
But the practical point is : can we deviate The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I wish
so far as we are asked to do to-day by the to point out to the Convention that the
proposition now before the Convention ? reasons why I and others oppose this
We must again look at the facts, and these amendment is absolutely away from the
facts are only facts to-day. In the course circumstances of my own colony—that it
of time, instead of New South Wales and is one absolutely of principle, and not only
Victoria possessing the largest population, of principle, but of the basic principle of
it may be that two colonies now possess- every constitution of the British type.
ing a small population will be inínitely Here, again, we come to the crucial ques-
ahead in population of those two colonies. tion : Is this to be a federal constitution
This is to be a federation for all time; con- of the British type, or a federal constitu-
sequently, although we to-day seem to be tion of the American type ? As far as I
fighting the battle of New South Wales can judge the feelings of the people of
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
503
Australia, they would infinitely prefer a We see in a federation where the senate is
federation of the British type. I adwit the embodiment of everything that is stable
at once that such a federation must pre- and honorable and dignified, having equal
sent new features. It is a federation financial power witli the house of repre-
which cannot be reconciled to the experi- sentatives,
ence and history of the United States. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
But with all respect to the United States But not elected by the people !
and their constitution, I believe that a The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Instead
federation of the British type will be much of being a check upon extravagant mal.
more likely to be accepted by the Aus- administration, instead of preserving the
tralian people, and to give them infinitely American people from financial straits,
more satisfaction, mainly, perhaps, because having millions of money in hand, it de-
it is that particular kind of constitution liberately squandered the money, and landed
under which they have been born and them in such a position that their deficiency
bred, and which they have administered is now to be calculated in millions. In-
in these several colonies. If I am asked, stead of the senate being a protection to
under these circumstances, to throw away the states in the custody and management
this basic principle of finance as it exists of the public money, it was simply a co-
in all constitutions of the British type, partner with the other house in a course
and to adopt the methods of the Ameri- of reckless extravagance, the result of
can legislature in finance, I have to say which is that now the American Congress
at once to this Convention that I have
have to pass a new tariff to bring in more
not the remotest hope of inducing the revenue, and the country is saddled with
people of this colony to do so. We must a pension liability of $150,000,000 a year.
not forget that the financial history of Strange to say, the further they get in
the American legislature is by no means point of time from the Civil War the
a satisfactory one.
Whilst America was larger the liability seems to be, the clains
deriving enormous amounts of revenue during the past few months totalling a
from an extremely high tariff there was larger amount than was ever known before
no difficulty, except the difficulty of the in the history of this pension scheme. This
United States legislature to spend the attempt to have a system of federal finance
money. They had millions and millions
based upon the equal powers of both houses
of dollars derived from those high protec- to amend taxation bills has proved a rank
tive duties which were filling the treasury failure in the case of the model example
until at last the difficulty was disposed of of the United States.
by a brilliant stroke of federal finance- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
those millions of surplus were converted The United States senate is not elected by
into pension claims of veterans, alive or the people!
dead, or yet to be born. I think I am The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I hope
correct in saying that almost each indivi- that the right hon. gentleman's patriotism
dual case had to be submitted to this model will be shown by his support of those who
house by means of a separate bill for each wish to leave these matters in the hands
pensioner, alive or dead. Now, this model
of the people.
federal legislature, with this most dignified The Right Hon. Sir JOIN FORREST :
senate, nearly killed itself in passing thou- The right hon. gentleman only wishes to
sands upon thousands of these bills, half of leave those matters which suit him in the
them, probably, representing bogus claims. hands of the people!
504 Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
1
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am upon an absolutely equal fcoting, and we
prepared to surrender a number of strong will bring into the public treasury of the
convictions in order to allow the senate commonwealth as much money as you
to have equal powers with the house of bring,” we shall have equality. Let each
representatives, so long as a pernicious at- colony agree that all shall contribute
tempt is not made to give the senate as equally to the public funds of the common-
constituted equal control of the money of wealth, and we shall have no more trouble.
the taxpayers of the commonwealth.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: No Each individual in the commonwealth will
one asked that!
contribute an equal amount !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : What
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : This is
does the amendment in regard to taxation not to be a cominonwealth of the Charles
bills mean?
Stuart type. If you put upon the people
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : It
as a whole, the people of the five colonies,
deals with the obtaining of money, not not separated by geographical boundaries,
with the spending of it !
but paying their taxation as individuals
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am in the commonwealth
sure that if my right hon. friend saw the
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
meaning of his amendment he would not
They will do so!
have proposed it; but surely he sees that
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: We
a house which by the constitution is given
know that they will do so, and the right
power to amend a taxation bill is given
hon. gentleman is very charitable in wishing
power to mould the taxation of the coun-
that it should be done; but I say, if you do
try
that-if you nationalise the area, and the
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : But
burden of taxation, you must nationalise
not power to spend the money of the
the power over the public purse. The right
people!
hon. gentleman appears to wish to call the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Surely
it is of some importance to the people of people a nation in order to take money
out of their pockets, and then to call them
Australia how they are to be taxed.
a federation in order that the majority
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
representing those who contribute a tithe
Certainly it is!
should have power equal to the power of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Then,
those who contribute most.
it occurs to me that the most important
thing is to get the money first.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
There is
no difficulty afterwards about spending it.
The right hon. gentleman wants unifica-
tion !
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
At any rate, there are two processes !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: So far
the fallacy of this position. It is a diffi-
as the people are concerned, the most im-
culty we can never yield to.
portant point is—how are you going to The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
raise from us the taxation of the common-
Then do not let us have federation; let
wealth? How can my right hon. friend
have unification at once !
justify his position in connection with a The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Does
matter of this kind ? If he will come to my right hon. friend mean that unless the
us and say, "We will have no inequality senate is to have equal power over taxa-
in the commonwealth; we will all stand tion bills, there will be no federation ?
us
[The Right Hon. G. II. Reid.
Commonwealth of
505.
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
1
The Hon. E. BARTON : He means that lived under such a state of things, and we
the constitution would not be a federal never shall. If you want equality in the
constitution !
senate, you must share and share alike.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Exactly. Then you will have equality, and as much
There, again, I would ask my right hon. of it as you like.
friend not to argue with phrases such as The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Per
the phrase "federation. There is nothing head of population, the people of Western
in a phrase. It does not support any argu- Australia will pay more than people in
ment. Let us simply take the facts. There other colonies !
are five colonies represented at this con- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That
vention. One of these colonies has a popu- has been recognised all through. Take the
lation of 1,400,000; another of 1,200,000; case of Sir Samuel Griffith when he was
another of 400,000; another— Tasmania in politics. I suppose that even my right
-a population of 200,000
hon, friend will admit that he was almost
The Hon. E. BARTON: 166,000 ! his equal in point of political sagacity, in-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Lastly, tellect, and attachment to the rights of the
Western Australia has a population of smaller states. I do not say that he was
about 160,000. These are not phrases ; his equal, but he was almost his equal.
they are simple facts. We propose that He took a very prominent part in framing
the federal parliament should put all these the Commonwealth Bill of 1891; but
people together for the purpose of taxa- staunch, fearless, able, and very successful
tion. We need not go into tables about advocate as he was of state rights, as the
what tariffs will produce. We will take representative of a small population he
it that a tariff would produce the same never put forward this proposal.
amount per head throughout the federa- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: I
tion.
think he has changed his opinion since
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : then, and changed it again !
We know that it would not !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am dealing with him as I knew him. I have
making the supposition against my own not known him in regard to this matter
argument; but taking it as by right hon. since he went on to the bench.
He is a
friend likes, hot, medium, or cold, what I keen-witted, able advocate of the rights of
wish to say is that in the senate, as we
the smaller states. We all know him as a
have agreed that it shall be constituted, skilled man of the world, and he saw that
there will be eighteen senators represent- if we were to have federation this power
ing the smaller number of people, and the could not be given to the senate.
twelve senators representing the larger The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Not
portion. In other words, eighteen senators with a nominee senate!
will have the right to amend taxation bills, The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The
although they represent an absolute and hon. member will see that, for the pur-
small minority of the whole colony. poses of my argument, it is absolutely im-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : material who appoints the eighteen sena-
Would the interests of the various popu- tors from the smaller states. They will still
lations differ?
be appointed by the persons who live in
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : This is those states. I am simply taking the facts
a state of things which you cannot bring as they are, and which cannot be altered.
any British community to. We have never This is one of the points upon which we,
506
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
1
representing the larger populations, can- The Right Fion. G. H. REID: I know
not possibly give way.
There are other the people of this country are sufficiently
points upon which my hon. friends oppo intelligent to understand you when you
site cannot give way. Personally, I look make a plain declaration of opinion. I do
upon equal representation in the senate, not know how it is in other quarters. Over
apart from expediency altogether, as the and over again my hon. friend, Mr. Bar-
most indefensible proposition in the world ton, has had to run the gauntlet on this
as a proposition; but, all through, I knew very point during the last six years.
at once that, if I was not prepared to Mr. WISE : Half a dozen of the candi-
meet the views of those representing the dates in this colony who opposed equal
smaller states on that point, the whole representation were defeated !
thing was a waste of time. I did not say The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is
anything about it. I did not go round absurd to say that the question was not
to these hon. gentlemen and say, “Look before the people of New South Wales.
at the concession we are making." We do not want to magnify the question
wasted no time about it, and did not say a of equal representation. We have made
word, but I stand by it now. As hon. up our minds that you must have it if
members know, there is a remarkably you want federation. We do not want to
strong feeling if not in the country, in the labour it, or to magnify it as a matter of
parliament of this country, against equal sacrifice. We simply want to do business. .
representation in the senate; but I did not We saw this was a point that would wreck
allow that to influence me in the slightest, you, and we gave way to you.
You must
because I felt bound in this enterprise to in return consider the points which would
remain true to the position I have taken Wreck us, and this is one of them. I feel
up as a matter of common honor to this that I should almost apologise to the Con-
Convention, and especially after I, as we vention for having spoken even at this
all did, put before the public of New South length, but I do think we have now come
Wales my views on this matter. I have to a point when we should not attempt to
with my fellow representatives, a strength make very long speeches. We should try
derived from the fact that when we be- to come straight to the important point,
came candidates for representation we and not even wait for the peroration in
plainly stated that we were prepared to order to sit down.
concede equal representation to the states, Motion (by the Hon. J. H. HOWE)
so that I stand in a thoroughly honorable that this Committee do now divide-nega-
constitutional position. But it is idle for tived :
me to shut my eyes to the fact that equal The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
representation as a proposition is indefen- (Tasmania) [36]: The Right Hon. G. H.
sible, and it is only in order to secure Reid has spoken with absolute fairness, and
federation that I can concede it. More in a manner that is exceedingly convincing
than that, that is the spirit of the people not convincing to the extent of making
of this colony. They saw from the first me see eye to eye with him, but convinc-
that it must be conceded, and they have ing in that I can quite understand and
wasted few words about ić. They have follow, and appreciate all his arguments
raised no protest about it during all these as far as they are applicable to himself and
years.
to his own colony. He does not claim, as
An Hon. MEMBER: It was not con- it has been very often claimed, that the
sidered by them !
giving to the small states of equal repre-
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
507
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
sentation was by way of concession. I proper principle. Surely, if, in the indi-
say it is not a concession ; it was given as vidual capacity of the various states, there
an absolute right in pursuance of what was is some difference as to the bulk of the re-
done in 1891, and continued ever since. I presentation, collectively the members of
may say, in perfect keeping with the very the senate would represent all the people
admirable argument used by the hon, men-
from one end to the other of the common-
ber, Mr. Wise, that these colonies have wealth just as fully as the members of the
now a separate and sovereign existence, house of representatives.
and the equality of the states has always The Right Hon. G. H. REID: How
been recognised at the various conventions could the Western Australian representa-
and meetings held to discuss local matters, tives represent us?
and that if one asked why the colonies
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON:
were equal, the answer was because they They would represent the people.
were equal. We hear a great deal about
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Of New
giving concessions, about yielding, and so
South Wales ?
forth, in order to secure federation. We
of the smaller states might very well ask
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON:
Not the people of New South Wales, but
what these concessions are that have been
the people of Western Australia. It would
given to us, or which are proposed to be
be just as much an assembly representative
given to us. We know, as the Right Hon.
of the taxpayers as you could possibly con-
Sir John Forrest has stated, that the
ceive, and when the artificial geographical
smaller states have conceded a great many
boundaries come to be removed, then I
very valid points. In regard to some sec-
tions of the representation of the smaller fancy my hon. friend will not dispute the
fact that the senate equally with the house
states, they have conceded a good deal
of representatives will represent the com-
which should meet the cordial approval of
monwealth.
my hon. friend, Mr. Deakin--that is, they
Mr. TRENWITH : But you do not remove
have conceded what I hold to be very pre-
the boundaries whilst you grant equal
cious myself ---namely, that the senate
should be a body representative to the very
representation ?
fullest extent of the popular will.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is not a
autonomy of the states remains !
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: You retain the
concession. It strengthens the senate, and
that is what you want !
states as entities !
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON:
It is a concession, so far as some members We are obliged to do that for their own
are concerned who have an objection to particular functions and business. But
popular election. I am in favour of that, there is no reason why the boundaries
so that it is not a concession so far as I should be lost and forgotten entirely when
am concerned; but it is a concession as far we come to deal with the matters of the
as the principles and feelings of other commonwealth.
members are concerned. That seems to An HON. MEMBER: That is what we
me to seriously affect one portion of my all say !
right hon. friend's address as to the powers The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That will
of the senate. He says that the principle not make the eighteen representatives of
that the house which represents the tax- these colonies represent the larger number
payers should legislate on finance is the of the other two colonies !
508
Australia Bill
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.)
:
1
Mr. HIGGINS : If we ignore boundaries, The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
why have eighteen representatives for the If you will allow it to have a responsibility
three smaller colonies?
for something which is substantial; but
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: I we are talking about suggestions. I know
think it has been conceded that there must that some hon. members--particularly the
be due protection of the interests and Premier of New South Wales-are anxious
rights of the states as states. That being to see something introduced by way of a
admitted, we now come to the question of solution of deadlocks. That is a point
the power of the senate in one particular, upon which I should like to join with him.
because we are only dealing, as I under- by way of concession, if I could induce him
stand it, with the right of the senate to and others to join with me by way of con-
amending, instead of to suggest, amend- cession in this particular
ments. The hon. member, Sir Philip Fysh, An Hon. MEMBER : You do not want
has asked what is the difference between the referendum at all !
the power of amending and the power of The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON:I
suggesting, and some one has replied that am not saying anything about the referen-
the difference is the difference between dum, but about some solution of the dead-
"tweedledum" and "tweedledee." If that lock, and that solution might be arrived at
be the only difference, if, in fact, there be by a dissolution.
no difference whatever, we are fighting The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That would be
about a shadow, and this principle might no solution !
as well be conceded by those who are The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: It ;
standing out against us. In the interests might be a means of bringing a check to
of federation, which we all desire to see bear upon the senate, which would keep
secured, the smaller states dare not yield any reasonable senate in fair order. I
their opinions on this subject.
merely say this to show that I am not
Au HON. MEMBER: Then we had better hidebound in my opinions with regard to
the bill, as adopted by the Federal Con-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: vention ; but I am quite willing to make
Well, we shall have to go home shortly. concessions where they are possible or rea-
It is said that Victoria and New South sonable, or where they are likely to be
Wales will not accept this. How will it acceptable to the people of the smaller
be if the other colonies will not accept states; but I am not prepared to go
anything less than the right of making further.
amendments? The Premier of New South The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania)
Wales has pointed out a very material [3.18]: It requires a great deal of courage
difference between the right to amend and to follow immediately upon the Premier of
the right to suggest-material in this New South Wales, because I look upon his
way: that the one will throw the respon- speech as one of those likely to carry
sibility of rejecting a bill on the house of weight with the public outside. It was
representatives, while the other will throw extremely interesting as far as it went;
it on the senate, and possibly may bring but it contained very little substance, and
the senate into odium and public discredit, an immense amount of sound. His endea-
which we do not desire to see.
vour to correct me with respect to the
The Hon. E. BARTON : It will have to colony of Tasmania was rather indefinite.
take the responsibility for what it actually I suppose I knew that colony before the
does !
right hon. gentleman was born. I have
go home!
[The Right Hon. Sir E. Braddon.
Commonwealth of
509
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
taken an interest in its representation ever the powers of Tasmania at the present
since it was a free colony, and I profess to time. It does not follow, because a great
know something more about it than he colony like New South Wales wants on all
does. The act of Parliament upon which Occasions to belittle a colony like Tasmania,
the constitution was established states : that we are not in the possession of our
There shall be in place of the present Legis- rights and privileges the same as they are.
lative Council of Van Dieman's Land one legis- We are free at the present moment.
We
lative council and one house of assembly in the
have now only the Government of Eng-
said colony, to be severally constituted in the
manner hereinafter prescribed, and such legis-
land over us, and are we going to vest the
lative council and house of assembly shall, after powers we have in this Government of
the dissolution as hereinafter provided of the New South Wales when we are free and
existing Legislative Council, have and exercise
independent in every shape and form, and
all the powers and functions of the said existing
Legislative Council.
to submit ourselves to be trampled under
foot by this large colony?
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: A Crown colony !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I would
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: It was not a
like to see the man who would do it!
Crown colony. The only clauses relating
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: I should like
to the power of the two houses-the House
to see a federation between the two big
of Assembly and the Legislative Council ---
colonies. I should like to see a federation
is the 33rd clause, which has never been
between New South Wales and, as the late
altered. It states :
Sir John Robertson termed it when we were
All bills for appropriating any part of the
here in 1891, the "cabbage garden.” That
revenue, or for imposing any tax, rate, duty, or
impost shall originate in the said House of would be a very interesting combination.
Assembly, and it shall not be lawful for the said The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Many a true
House of Assembly to originate or pass any vote, word said in jest!
resolution, or bill for the appropriation of any
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: You put for-
part of the revenue, or of any tax, rate, duty,
or impost for any purpose which shall not have ward in the bill that the federation must
been first recommended by the Governor to the consist of three colonies. Why do you not
said House of Assembly during the session in
start with two colonies? Then we should
which such vote, resolution, or bill shall be
have known what you were. Here are two
passed.
Therefore, the powers of the two houses
colonies like oil and water, which will
remain the same as in the original consti-
never mix, wanting as quietly as possible to
tution, with the exception of the power
get another colony into this little arrange-
of origination, which is in the House of ment. Many years ago when I arrived in
Tasmania, Tasmania was a free colony,
Assembly. We have maintained our power
in the Council from that day to this, and
and Victoria was part and parcel of New
South Wales,
although the House of Assembly show by a
There was a very little
mild protest that they do not like it, they community at a place called Melbourne,
which was
have to submit.
an exceedingly dirty hole.
There were about 5,000 people in the whole
An Hon. MEMBER: Haveyou survivedit?
of that colony, and Governor Bourke wrote
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Survived it!
down, I have seen the letter in the Colo-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Have they nial Secretary's Office at Hobart-com-
survived it—that is the question ?
plaining to Sir George Arthur because he
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: It is like had taken possession of Victoria for Tas-
myself; I have survived everything. In mania. At that time Victoria was simply
considering this subject we must look at an offshoot froin Tasmania.
510
Australia. Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.1
means.
i
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS.: The child was very evident that the small colonies are
father of the man !
absolutely necessary to carry on this Con-
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: The hon. vention—just as necessary as any large
member knows nothing about it. That colony. One is just as necessary as the
great and powerful colony up to 1853 was other. Therefore, when you talk about
a mere sheepwalk. Then, all of a sudden, logic, I do not think you know what logic
up sprang the gold-diggings ; Victoria went
What has logic to do with the
ahead with its millions of money, and thing at all? It is the greatest absurdity
inasmuch as those millions have now in the world to talk in that way. Imagine
vanished, it has got into its proper posi- a man getting up and talking about logic
tion, Tasmania has a very quiet mode of who never say the word even in his school
doing business. Our progress, however, has days! They fancy they know something
been substantial. We have not built up about logic because they can talk.
seven and eight storey buildings to have Mr. HIGGINS : They accuse me of being
them unoccupied. All our buildings and logical!
all our improvements are used. In other The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Logic is a
places they spend their money, and do not peculiar science to know, and the only use
know what to do with the buildings when which the hon. member makes of it is to
they are erected. New South Wales no blind the eyes of those who do not know
doubt is progressing, and Tasmania is pro- anything about it. Where does the logic
gressing. Tasmania has never since the come in in respect to the rights and privi-
period I am alluding to-which is close on leges of the separate colonies ? It does not
to sixty years—been in a more favourable exist. The speech of the Right Hon. Mr.
position than it is in at this moment. Reid was exceedingly amusing; but did it
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Who devel- contain anything like the truth or the sub-
oped your western mines ?
stance of the truth ? Is the senate of these
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: You have colonies to be corrupt hecause the Senate
had more than you ever gave ; therefore, of the United States is corrupt? The
you need not complain. In 1841 Victoria argument is that this senate must be
formed a part of this colony, and then corrupt, because the Senate of the United
what happened ? It found that it was States at one time has been corrupt. Be-
badly represented in New South Wales. cause the senators there are millionaires,
It was determined in some way or other is it necessary that millionaires should
to slow its opinion of New South Wales represent us in our senate ? Are the
and the Government of New South Wales. arrangements made for the election of its
What did it do ? Earl Grey, the Secre- members the same as the arrangements
tary of State for the Colonies, was elected made for the election of the members of
to represent Melbourne in the Legislative the American Senate? They are vastly dif-
Council of New South Wales. Shortly after ferent. The right hon. and learned member
that year they had a constitution of their is dealing with things which do not exist
own, New South Wales had constitutional and never will exist. Take the mother-
government, and Tasmania had constitu- country. Does Middlesex rule the whole
tional government. What was our object of England?
in getting these free institutions ? Was it The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Why
not to govern ourselves? Are we now to should Tasmania want to rule us !
go back to the original position, and put
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: We do not
ourselves under New South Wales ? It is want to rule you,
and
you
know
very
well
[The Hon. Å. Douglas.
Cominonwealth of
511
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia. Bill.
do so.
we do not want to rule you; we have not I will go throughout Tasmania from one
the power, and we have not the wish to end of. it to the other, and all round the
coast, and will advise the electors to have
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Six men nothing to do with the proposal. I know
like my hon. friend in the senate would what their views upon a subject of this
rule the whole show!
character are likely to be, niuch better than
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: If you have they can be known by strangers. Hon.
not sufficient confidence in the federal gentlemen come to us because they wishi
parliament why go in for federation at all? to enjoy our genial climate, and we are
What is the meaning of federation. It only too glad to see them. As long as they
would be very instructive from that point will. spend their money we do not care
of view to compare the speeches which the how long they remain. Our colony is free
Right Hon. the Premier of New South and independent, and can pay its way.
Wales made in 1891 against federation One of my hon. friends has taken up a
with his utterances on the subject to-day. position which is somewbat peculiar, and
What did the predecessor of the hon. gen- I cannot help thinking that the climate of
tleman in the leadership of the free-trade this colony must have had a peculiar effect
party do? He advocated a federal council, upon him.
upon him. He left Tasmania in 1891 with
and the bill instituting that council was the determination that the states should
altered to suit the views of the people of have their rights, and not only that, but
New South Wales. When it bad been he was a party to the framing of a bill
altered the hon. gentleman stood out of which contained a provision giving to the
the council, and the bill was not allowed senate the power of amendment. Sub-
to have its proper operation. It has not sequently that part of the scheme' was
bad its proper operation from that day to dropped, because he became frightened that
this. Now I myself have regarded the unless that were done New South Wales
Federal Council as a stepping stone to would not join the federation. He modified
federation in these colonies; but it. bas his views accordingly. When he went to
been ruined primarily through this colony Adelaide he reformed his conduct; but
not joining it. The council has been de- he is now retrogressing again. So far as
prived of a large. measure of its usefulness I am concerned, I intend to vote in the
by reason of the position taken up by New interests of the smaller colonies. It is all
South Wales. Are we to put ourselves very well to talk about our having pro-
into the hands of this colony to-day, be- tection from the fact that we bave six re-
cause it happens to suit the dominant presentatives in the senate in each colony.
party here for the moment to support a We know what that means. It is equiv-
scheme of federation ? It may mean the alent to telling us that you will give us
glorification of individuals, but it certainly wings, but that we are not to have the
does not mean the glorification of the power to use then. In other words, you
states. I myself am not in favour cf clip them. Well, let that be done, and
federation, except conditionally. I am we will have nothing further to do with
certainly not such a believer in federation
you.
that I would take it on any terms what- Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania). [3•36] : I
, If I find that this bill, as finally was one of the representatives who in
drawn by the Convention, is not accept- Adelaide voted with the object of giring
able to the people of Tasmania I shall not to the senate power to amend money bills,
be at all diffident upon the subject; but and I desire to state the reasons why I
ever.
1
512 Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
1
pre-
1
intend to give a different vote upon the stances, I think, if we had a system of re-
question now. I have heard the remark sponsible governmentunderfederation with
made-I do not know whether in this two houses of co-ordinate powers as to
Committee or outside.--that we ought to money bills, the genius of our people would
support the views which have been put surmount all difficulties and enable the two
forward by the parliaments of the various systems to work well together. But, while
colonies ; but I do not think that is the that would in my opinion be the case, I
position. We are not here to voice or sup- must look at the position of affairs at
port the opinions of the various parlia sent, and I consider that, just as the grant-
ments which have been expressed within ing of the principle of equal representation
the last few months, however much we of the states in the senate is a practical
may respect them; but we are here, as necessity of federation, it is also a practical
representatives of the people, to exercise necessity of federation that we should give
our best judgment for the purpose of in to the views of the larger colonies on
bringing about a scheme of federation this very important question. Representa-
which will be fair to all the colonies, and tives of Victoria and of New South Wales
which will be dishonoring to none. We have told us that their people will not
are sent here to bring about a system agree to any scheme of federation in which
of federation of such a kind that when we the senate has co-ordinate powers in the
return to our respective colonies, we shall matter of amending money bills. I accept
be able to say,
“We have brought back fully the statement of these hon, members
federation with honor." I think it is ad- when they tell us that is the view of their
mitted on all hands that we must start people. I admit that their statement is per-
with a system of responsible government. fectly correct, and if that is the case it is
Although we may not for many years useless for us to expect that those colonies
retain it, yet we must start with it; will
agree to any scheme of federation where
and, starting with it, the question arises, such an important obstacle is placed in
as was so well put in Adelaide, is the sys- their way. For these reasons, I think it
tem of responsible government consistent is the duty of the representatives of the
with a system of responsibility to two smaller colonies to weigh the position very
houses in a federation where the two houses carefully. It is our duty to ask ourselves,
have co-ordinate powers as regards taxa- "Is the compromise that was agreed to in
tion ? I admit, to a large extent, the force 1891, the scheme that was ratified in Ade-
of the argument put forward in Adelaide laide in 1897, one that would be fair to us,
and elsewhere. I admit that there is no and would bring about no dishonor on our
instance of a federation in the world to- part ?" I think it is, because I assume
day under a system of responsible govern- that we shall get the power of suggestion,
ment where both houses have co-ordinate If we get that, it will enable us to protect
powers with regard to taxation ; but, al- ourselves to as large an extent as we rea-
though that is a fact, I think that, just as sonably want. It will be fair to us, it will
the House of Lords and the House of do us no dishonor, it will help considerably
Commons in Great Britain would soon in bringing about federation, and for these
show the constitution to be a mass of ab- reasons I intend to support the clause as
surdities if they pushed their respective it stands in the bill.
rights and powers to the utmost, and inas- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
much as the British Constitution neverthe- South Wales) (3:43]: I have a very lively
less works very well under such circum- recollection that when in Adelaide an
[Mr. Clarke
Commonwealth of
513
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Aristralia Bill.
attempt was made to liberalise this con- legal technicalities that crop up from time to
stitution, we were answered with the state- time, as to whether amendments are to be
ment that hon. members felt themselves made as amendments or in the form of sug-
obliged to abide by the compromise which gestions? What the people do concern them-
was fairly expressed in clauses 56 and 57. selves about is that which stands between
I have no hesitation in characterising that them and the accomplishment of their
compromise as one which has stood largely purposes. They do concern themselves
in the way of the more populous colonies about having a voice in the government of
gaining any concession in this constitution themselves. These amendments offer them
bill. To a large extent I sympathise with nothing which will satisfy their wants.
the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest in the These amendments and this compromise
amendment he has proposed to-day. Al- merely cater to a feeling which is growing
though I intend to vote against thatamend- up in the minds of those who participate
ment, I think it would be a distinct gain in the politics of the country as members
to the people of the larger colonies if it of one house or the other.
They contain
were carried, and if we once for all started nothing which really touches those vital
to break down the compromise of 1891, points that the people themselves feel. I
that compromise which was ratified in undertake to say that, in most of the con-
Adelaide, and which has been the stum- flicts which have occurred with regard to
bling block in the way of obtaining some money bills in the various Australian
substantial reform. We shall be met very colonies, the people have not concerned
shortly, when proposals are made to deal themselves so much about the amendments
with the great question of conflicts be- that have been made, but have concerned
tween the two houses, with appeals to themselves about the possibility or other-
stand loyally by the compromise expressed wise of having ingrafted in the statute-
in this clause, and I fear the Greeks when book that which expresses their will and
they are offering gifts. I have no gratitude their desire. The power of veto still re-
to my hon, friend, Sir Philip Fysh, and mains, and the power of veto vested in the
those hon. gentlemen who are breaking senate is the power that I fear, and it is
away from the compact, so-called, with the the power which must result in conflict.
smaller colonies, because I feel that when The senate may be right, and the house of
the time comes to deal with more vital representatives may be wrong, or the senate
provisions in the bill, they will claim that, may be wrong and the house of representa-
having already sacrificed something, they tives may be right; but, when these cases
should not be called upon to sacrifice any- occur—when these two bodies come into
thing further. I tell them that they have conflict, whether they have equal powers
sacrificed nothing which will be any gain or otherwise, what is to happen ? Where
to the larger colonies; that they have sac- is to be the remedy ? When the people
rificed nothing which will help the people find their will thwarted by the obstinate
to have their purposes accomplished under attitude of one house or the other, where,
the constitution itself. The people are ask- then, is the outlet from the difficulty ?
ing for bread, and you offer them a stone. The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : Why not
What do the people concern themselves deal with that later on, when we come to
about these points of etiquette and pro- the discussion of the question ?
cedure in the conduct of business between The Hon. J.H. CARRUTHERS: The
the two houses? What do the people of reason I speak now is because at this time,
the colonies concern themselres about these when we are dealing with this compro-
2 N
514
Australia Bill. :
Commonwealth.cf
[14 SEPT., 1897.)
later on.
mise, we are really raising a stumbling- element of weakness, which must follow it
block in the way of gaining our purpose right through its existence. I do hope
The hon, member cannot be ob- that, in connection with the vote on this
livious of the fact that in Adelaide, imme- question, there will not be attached any
diately after these clauses were dealt with, importance to the fact that we are having
we were met with objections to the grant- assistance from those who represent the
ing of any further so-called concessions to less populous colonies; and I hope that
the more populous states on the ground there will be no compact made which will
that a compromise bad been arrived at, tie the hands or hereafter interfere with
and must loyally be abided by, and that the votes of those who, putting aside
compromise was expressed in these few technicalities, desire to have some real
clauses. I desire to express my utter lack vital principle embodied in the bill, which
of sympathy with those who are contest- in case of conflict will allow the voice of
ing so strongly the point at issue. I the people to be paramount.
would not hesitate to grant to the Right Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [3-51]:
Hon. Sir John Forrest, and those who As a representative of one of the largest
vote with him, co ordinate powers in the two colonies, I cannot help rising to say that
houses to give them that which they im- much of the language which has been used
agine to be the substance, but which I take by my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, seemed
to be the shadowm-as long as they would to me entirely unsuited to the occasion,
grant in return that, with those co-ordinate This is not a question of compact or bar-
powers, when a conflict did occur, when the gain. We have not come here to make
constitution was being strained by a crisis, bargains.
bargains. We have come here to frame a
then there should be some outlet by which scheme which we conscientiously shall be
the people themselves might voice their able to recommend to the voters in our
opinions, and claim, and have in reality, several colonies, and in doing that we have
the right to mould their own destiny and
to take into account that there is a diver-
to frame their own laws. The right hon. gence of sentiment between the electors in
member objects that all the attempts which one colony and those in another. Recog-
have been made in the various clauses are nising that, we find that there are several
attempts to detract from the influence of matters--none of them absolutely essen-
the senate. I desire to see the senate a tial to the successful working of the feder-
powerful body, a strong body; but you ation--ipon which we may be compelled
will get that strength by building it on to vote in a way contrary to our own pri-
strong foundations ; you will get that vate inclination, whilst there are others in
strength by creating it as a body elected regard to which other hon. members may
on the broadest and best suffrage possible. find themselves in a similar position. As
The weakness of the senate arises from the Right Hon. the Prime Minister of New
that which we have already done in call- South Wales has pointed out, I feel certain
ing it into existence, not with the will that this question is regarded in New South
of the people of the commonwealth at Wales as a matter of great moment--that
its back, but with the will of that in- it is not regarded as a light matter--and I
animate thing that cannot express its certainly disclaim for my part, and I believe
own wishes, that cannot show any en-
I
may do so on the part of almost all those
thusiasm or be grateful—that inanimate who represent New South Wales, any idea
thing, the corporate body of the state. that in asking any of the representatives
The senate being so constructed has an of the smaller colonies to take into con-
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
515
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
sideration our difficulties, we expect, or
the Convention who was unable to vote
imagine it to be even possible, that they upon this question, and it also happened
should claim that we should give way that at the Convention of 1891, held
afterwards on any matter of bargain. We in this Chamber, I was the only one of
are not asking them to make a bargain, the representatives of my own colony
and I think that the speeches made by who voted in favour of what has been
the hon. members, Sir Philip Fysh and since called the “Sydney compromise of
Mr. Clarke, and others, will have a very 1891," in favour of suggestion as against
great effect in this colony, and I believe amendment, and I wish to explain my
in Victoria, in dissipating that prejudice attitude on the present occasion. I am
which I am bound to say my hon. col- indebted to my hon.friend, Mr. Carruthers,
league, Mr. Carruthers, has, with others, for, to a great extent, anticipating one of
inadvertently assisted to circulate—the my objections, which is that, at this stage,
prejudice that there is some conspiracy on we cannot accept any vote of this body as
the part of the smaller colonies to attack a final one, or as committing us perman-
and injure the larger colonies. The speeches ently to one view or another. We do not
made to-day by the representatives of the know what is going to come before this
smaller colonies, and the votes that they Convention closes its sittings, and there
have given, will, I hope entirely remove is a great deal in what the hon. member,
from the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, Mr. Carruthers, said, that a concession of
the prejudice he has cherished, and, unin- more powers or of less powers to one
tentionally, has helped to encourage in this house or the other will greatly depend on
colony, that there is an attempt being the provisions ultimately adopted with
made by the smaller colonies to combine regard to the avoidance of deadlocks. In
against the larger colonies. We may surely Sydney, in this chamber, I expressed an
rely on the patriotism of those who recog- opinion strongly in favour of allowing
nise that in the interests of Australia they full powers of amendment to the senate, al-
may have to give way on matters on which though from the same motive which
many of the electors do not see eye to eye operates with many hon. members in this
with them, and we hope they will be able Convention, I submitted my view to what
to convince many who differ from them I saw was the riew of the majority, and
that they have acted in the best interests
felt that unless concessions were made on
of Australian union as we are certain that the part of the less populous colonies,
in New South Wales, in spite of the oppo- federation was impossible for Victoria and
sition and the querulous complaints of
New South Wales. But my main objec-
some of our representatives, we shall be tion to the refusal to concede powers of
able to convince the people that equal amendment to the senate is that we are
representation of the states in the senate loading the constitution in one direction.
is a practical necessity of union.
We are forcing it to move in a course for
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT (Western which it may be amply suited, but for which
Australia) [3.54]: I wish to explain that, circumstances may prove it to be totally un-
as in the case of some of my hon. friends suitable. I aclmit that we must commence
from Tasmania, and Mr. Symon, of South with what is called responsible government,
Australia, to-day my vote will be on the and I also admit the glorious fruits of that
opposite side to that upon which I voted form of government, but I cannot shut my
on a previous occasion. It happened that eyes
to the fact that we are now entering
at Adelaide I was the one member of upon an unknown sea.
We are creating a
516
Australia Bitt.
Commonwealth of
[14 Sept., 1897.]
។
constitution of which almost everything is smaller colonies would be represented here
undefined. We have little in the past to at the present moment if equality of repre-
argue from, we have absolutely nothing in sentation were not granted.
the future but the purest efforts of imag- Mr. HIGGINS: It seems that thatghost has
ination, and it may be that it would be not been laid yet. It will come up again !
best for that constitution to run on the The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Very
lines which have been established in Eng- likely. .
land and the colonies for so many years. Mr. HIGGINS : I thought we settled that
We must also remember that we have had matter last week !
fifty years' experience of the one, and it The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: The hon.
may be that we are now entering on å member settles things very fast; but many
more fruitful career of development even of the things which he settles unsettle
than that which has attended the course themselves just as quickly.
of England during the last fifty, or even Mr. HIGGINS : I did not settle it!
hundred, years. That is the main reason
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: I con-
why I have always been doubtful about gratulate the Convention that the hon.
limiting the powers of the senate, for I member has not been able to settle these
firmly agree with my hon. friend, Mr. matters, and to settle them at the same
Carruthers, that the political genius of the
time. The concession of equal representa-
English nation will discover a way out of tion may mean much, or it may mean ab-
any difficulty that may arise, and our busi- solutely nothing. It depends entirely upon
ness is to impose as few obstacles as pos- the powers and rights which are con-
sible in the path of its freest development. ceded to the body which is invested with
Let me say one word in regard to what equal representation. To what purpose
has been so often, if I may use the word,
is it to invite five men to a dinner,
flaunted in this Chamber. That is the and then to muzzle three of them ļ Yet
magnificent concession made by certain that is the concession which, after all,
hon. members of this Convention to the this compact as to equal representation in
smaller states, in giving them equality of the senate amounts to. I am not going to
representation in the senate.
labour these matters; but the two points I
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Concession ? desire to impress upon hon, members in
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: Yes, the concluding my remarks are these. I look
magnificent concession that it is claimed with no dread upon this power of sugges.
has been made. Let me once for all, on
tion. It seems to me that its value en-
behalf of my own colony, repudiate that tirely depends upon the body to which it
with all the energy of which I am capable. belongs. The objection I see to it at the
Talk of a concession, when all that we saw present moment is this : that the power of
in it was a fundamental condition prece- suggestion being by its very terms a less
dent as necessary to federation as the reten- important, less dignified, and less authorita-
tion of the existence of our own parlia- tive power than the power of amendment,
ments and our own executives was neces- a suggestion comes with inferior weight
sary to the colonies.
froni a body which associates itself with a
An Hon. MEMBER :
position of inferiority by the very act of
The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: I do not being compelled to make use of it to make
agree with my hon. friend. It is simply its opinions known in another place. Of
viewed from two different aspects. The fact course if we get a strong senate and a,
remains that I am sure not one of the good senate, which again depends upon
[The Hon. J. TV. Hackett.
Commonwealth of
517
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
the powers and rights which we give to An Hon. MEMBER : The right hon.
that body, it will make its 'will known. member, Mr. Reid, said that it was essen-
There can be no doubt about that. After tial !
all, there may not be very much difference The Hon. J. W. HACKETT: If the
between making amendments in the body course of debates and events during the
of another chamber and making amend- next few weeks or months convince me of
ments upon its own account; for after all, that, I shall be found content to waive
one body must concur in the amendments the matter in the spirit which I exhibited
made by another body, and amendments at the sittings of the Convention of 1891.
are not made before they are concurred in. The constitution which it is now proposed
Therefore, an amendment which is simply to adopt is different from that which was
put upon the statute-book in the house of framed in 1891. More than one enor-
representatives would be just as valuable mously important element has been intro-
and just as important as if it were first duced, and until we dispose of these, and
proposed in the senate. That is the first see what form they are likely to take, I
remark I have to make; that I do not must, at all events on this occasion, record
view with any serious alarm this power my vote with the right hon, member, Sir
of suggestion. If the senate deserves to John Forrest.
have the power of suggestion, and is de- The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
termined to exercise it strongly, and it is [4.5]: Recognising as I do that every
found that it exercises it wisely -
moment of our time is precious, I do not
Mr. SYMON : The legislatures of the desire to make a long speech ; but, after
various colonies have exercised it in con- the challenge of the hon. member, Sir
nection with the amendments which we Philip Fysh, to change my vote, I think
are now considering !
I ought to state to the Convention and to
The Hon. J. W.HACKETT: Exactly, the people of all the colonies why I do not
and although the Right Hon. Sir John feel inclined to do so. I think the right
Forrest rather mocks at its existence in hon, member, Sir Edward Braddon, hit the
our constitution, he is in the favourable nail on the head when he said that some
position of having to deal with two houses of us might be perfectly willing to give to
which are in accord; but the time may comie our hon. friends opposite, and to the re-
when the power of suggestion may be a presentatives of New South Wales, some
very unpleasant scorpion in the bosom of means, either by dissolution or referendum,
the premier of the day. The second remark of settling disputes between the two houses.
I have to make is this, and I make it with But I take it that our hon. friends cannot
all sincerity. If it should be found that ask us for that concession if they are going
the right of amendment would stand in to take every possible opportunity to nar-
the way of federation, I would not weigh row down the powers of the senate. When
it in my mind for a moment before I would I said the other day that I was willing to
surrender it. If we are told by hon. mem- accept federation at any price the Conven-
bers who speak with authority on behalf tion might put on it, what I meant was
of the larger colonies that the substitution that I have such confidence in the wisdom,
of the right of suggestion for that of amend- ability, and sense of fair play possessed by
ment is an essential condition to their hon, members that, whatever bill the Con-
entering federation, I say, away with the vention framed, I should be prepared to
power of amendment, and let us all stand go through Tasmania and urge the people
by the right of suggestion.
to accept federation under its provisions,
518
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.1
and I shall be found opposing my old and Reid, forgot that in New South Wales the
hon. colleague if he ventures to go through upper chamber is a nominee house. In the
the colony with an opposite intention. We federal legislature, however, the upper
ought to have confidence in ourselves, and chamber will be a popular house. There
I feel certain that when the bill leaves this will be the same popular will behind it as
chamber it will have such elements of fair- there will be behind the lower chamber.
ness in it that every one ought to be willing The right hon. member, Mr. Kingston, and
to accept it. When we talk about the will the hon. member, Sir Graham Berry-one
of the people, and about the wishes of a ma- inside the Convention and the other out-
jority prevailing, we are using phrases which side-in the days when it was proposed
lead us into disaster. The right hon. mem- that the senate should be elected by the par-
ber, Mr. Reid, told us that the whole of the liaments, both said that suppose the second
people of this colony were in favour of chamber sprang from the popular will, and
equal representation in the senate. It was was elected upon manhood suffrage they
said that almost all the men elected to re- would have no objection, and there could be
present New South Wales went before this no objection, to its having powers co.equal
large constituency on that principle, and with those possessed by the house of repre-
that half a dozen candidates who did not sentatives. These hon. gentlemen get con-
believe in equal representation were not cessionson one hand, but they giveusnothing
elected. Yet we find both houses of the back with the other. The hon. member,
New South Wales legislature absolutely Mr. Carruthers, said he did not believe in
opposed to equal representation, which is graveyards; but certain hon. members here
a nice parody upon our so-called repre- do believe in a very large graveyard--the
sentative government, by which we are graveyard of ultra-democracy, which, like
always imagining that we can find out the grave, takes everything and gives
what the will of the people is. I believe nothing back. I desire to say to my hon.
that in two cases out of five the legislature friends, who I know have to go back to
does not know what the will of the people their electors, as I have to go back to mine,
is. I defy anyone to say what the will of and who desire, as we all earnestly desire,
the people is when there is passion and to get the bill accepted by the people, that
prejudice and party feeling abroad. We I'am prepared to meet them on the vital
have found no machine which will tell us point of having some process by which we
what the popular will is. The right hon. can settle disputes between the two houses.
member, Mr. Reid, asks us what is in a But I am not prepared to do that if you
phrase or a name? What is in the word will only give me a weak senate. If you
"federation”? Everything is in it. We give me a strong senate, which can keep
are here to build up a federal constitution. up its dignity and have some control
Our constitution must, I take it, differ in over the great force which is hurrying
certain elements from the constitutions us along quite fast enough, which will be
which govern the separate colonies. Hon. enabled to have control in some way or
members, when they are comparing the
another over the democratic force which
federation which we are now building up, prevails, I shall be quite prepared to give
with its upper and lower houses of legisla- you what you desire. I am satisfied that
ture, to our own systems of two chambers, blunders will be made in our constitution
forget altogether that in some cases the which will not redound to our credit.
upper chamber is a nominee body.
Why? Because we are taking the most
surprised that the right hon. member, Mr. cumbersome, bungling, method of framing
I am
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Conmonuealth of
519
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
a constitution that the wit of man could the first bills will deal with money ; it will
devise. If we could shut our doors, I be a bill providing for the defences of the
believe that by 12 o'clock to-night we colonies. We all think that the defences
could settle our differences, we could ad- of Australia have been to some extent
just the balance between the two houses neglected, because all have gone in for
in such a manner as would satisfy all of isolated, spasmodic, individual action in-
us, and put the bill in such a shape that stead of federal action. One of the first
we should be prepared to send it to the bills that the senate will have to deal with
country and, if necessary, stump the con- will be to provide a federal scheme of
stituencies in favour of it.
defence. Such a scheme may involve the
The Hon. E. BARTON : Then they would expenditure of £1,000,000; it may in-
not look at it!
volve the expenditure of £2,000,000 or
£3,000,000. The senate might look upon
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I think the
hon. member is wrong.
that scheme as extravagant, and devised
If we sat round
the table, each man speaking for a minute,
as much with the idea of finding work for
instead of half an nuur, and having a con-
the working-classes as for carrying out
ference over the matter, we could come to
efficiently a scheme of defence. The senate
a satisfactory agreement, and then, if you
might want to reduce the expenditure
like, we could debate it afterwards in the
from £2,000,000 to £1,000,000. Accord-
light of day with the press and public pre- ing to what is now proposed the senate
can do nothing. It must either pass the
sent, giving reasons to show, not why we
bill with all this extravagance, as it con-
compromised, but reasons in favour of the
scientiously believes, or it must throw it
bill.
into the waste-paper basket. Is there any
An Hon. MEMBER: That was tried at
one so unreasonable, conservative, or
Adelaide!
obstructive as to ask that the senate shall
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Is the hon.
not have power to reduce the amount in
member frightened by one or two sen.
that bill from £2,000,000 to £1,000,000,
tences uttered by the hon. member, Mr.
and to send it back in that shape to the
Lyne---most improperly uttered, I think
lower house? In such a case if the lower
-to the effect that we had been sitting in
house would not accept £1,000,000, it
secret at Adelaide when we had done
might be prepared to compromise and
nothing of the kind.
accept £1,500,000. It seems to me that
Mr. LYNE: So you did !
you are framing an unworkable scheme;
The Hon. H. DOBSON: The hon. mem- you are not only robbing the senate
ber used the word "secret" in such a way of the prestige which it ought to have,
as to tell the electors of the colony that but you are taking away from it all power
this had been done behind their backs,
of concession and conciliation, taking away
whereas there was nothing of the kind. I from it all power of giving and taking-
think the Right Hon. G. H. Reid would that spirit which we hare here which
have done much better service if he had prompts us to give and take, and which
pointed out to the Convention exactly how would enable the senate to try in that way
the senate will work shorn of the powers to carry out the will of the people. What
of which you wish to deprive it, instead of is the second bill which would probably
giving that little historical account of what come before the senate ? A bill to estab-
the Senate in America is doing. What lish a uniform tariff, under which we have
bills will come before the senate? One of financially to live. Our existence will, to
520
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 Sept., 1897.
1
1
a large extent, depend upon the tariff being that the senate shall be made a strong
so adjusted, that those colonies which want body which will command the respect of
protection, and those colonies which, like the people as well as of the lower house.
Tasniania, want revenue from the customs, The Hon. J.HENRY (Tasmania)[4:18]:
and without it would go insolvent, may be The Right Hon. G. H. Reid, in his ex-
able to get what they desire. Yet some haustive speech, advised hon. members
hon. members want it to go forth to the who followed him to make short speeches.
people that the senate cannot even reduce That advice commends itself to me, and
the duty on one single item out of 300 or there is no hon. member who has a stronger
400 items.
objection to wasting time or multiplying
Mr. LYNE :
unnecessary words than I have. Yet I
The Hon. H. DOBSON: We must get feel constrained to say something on this
revenue in some way, and it must be pro- subject. Although I recognise that the
vided through the customs. That is one conclusion is a foregone one, I feel, in re-
of the financial problems before us. The ference to the vote which I shall give on
point is this : that, in a customs bill con- the question, that the same reasons which
taining 300 or 400 items, the senate, ac- actuated me in voting as I did at Adelaide
cording to this clause, cannot say that the continue to exist still, and, if possible, have
tax on tea shall be reduced from 1d. to 3d., additional force. The question to my
that a tax upon machinery cannot be re- mind is narrowed down to two very
duced from 10 per cent. to 5 per cent. It narrow issucs. The first is : can we have
cannot take an item from the revenue federation if we, the smaller colonies, join
schedule and put it on the free list. That our voting power together in this Conven-
is what you call building up a senate and lion, and defeat the larger colonies on this
a federal government with two houses subject? The second question is: assuming
which will possess the confidence of Aus- that we do deprive the senate of the power
tralia. Have we not a right to take into to amend particular money bills, can we,
consideration the education, intelligence, under our constitution, have good govern-
and thrift of the people? Are we to simply ment in other respects in the future ?
count heads ? As Burke said, are we to With reference to the first question, that
have government by the counting of heads? is, whether the force of opinion in the
There is another pliase of this question to larger colonies on this question of money
be considered. Will the intelligent, the bills is such that if the smaller colo-
wealthy classes, the men who sit at home and nies defeat them on this issue, it will
say, "A plague o' both your houses; we aro seriously retard or impede federation,
sick of your party politics, and will have I am of the same opinion now as I was at
none of them”—will these men accept Adelaide.
Adelaide. In view of all the circum-
your constitution if you make it lop-sided, stances, in view of the feeling amongst mem-
as I think you may ? But if we devise bers of the Convention and the feeling in
some scheme by which, in its essential par- the smaller colonies, I am quite satisfied
ticulars, we shall secure that the will of that if those colonies join their forces in
the people, when it is clearly ascertained the matter-thirty to twenty - against
to be in a certain direction, will be given the larger colonies, and defeat them on
effect to-if we secure that the people this issue, we shall seriously impede feder-
shall have their way after due time has ation. With regard to the question as to
been given for discussion and reflection- the support which the larger colonies re-
I think surely we have a right to claim ceived from certain delegates of the smaller
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
521
(14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
colonies at Adelaide, I may state that it question to the meeting, and I had the
was then a question as to whether it would satisfaction of receiving a vote of approval
not be better to postpone any concessions of my conduct.
until this meeting of the Convention. The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : That is only a
After reflection, I am forced to the con- section of the people !
clusion that the vote on that occasion was : The Hon. J. HENRY : It was a very
a wise one, for I am quite satisfied—and important section of the city of Launces-
I think every hon. member who takes ton. The hon. member will admit that in
what I regard as a reasonable view of the that city there is a considerable amount of
matter is satisfied that had the delegates influence so far as expression of opinion is
from the larger colonies gone back to their concerned." I may also state that my col-
several legislatures defeated on this issue league, Mr. Lewis, who voted with me on
by the small colonies, it would have caused that occasion, also called a meeting of the
so much bitterness, that the result would Australian Natives Association, and ex-
have been prejudicial to the cause of feder- plained his vote and position, and he also
ation, which I believe most of us so was awarded a vote of confidence for his
earnestly desire. Reflecting on that vote, action. I have no doubt whatever as to
I am rejoiced to find that certain of my the result of the vote whenever it is taken;
colleagues who were then opposed to me in- and I shall be able to go back to the colony
tend now to join with me in the vote which to which I have the honor to belong, and
I intend to give. With regard to the ques- conscientiously recommend the acceptance
tion as to whether we are likely to bave of the Constitution Bill, provided that in
good government in the future--that is other important respects the nieasure is
the paramount question after all; and I made safe. I have in iny mind principally
am quite satisfied that, even with a senate the financial clauses. The financial ques-
deprived of power to amend money bills, tion is the great stumbling block to Tas.
the people of Australia may safely enter mania. We are only a small colony, and
into federation with the confidence that we must see our way safely; but, as re-
we shall secure for federated Australia gards the question of the constitution, I
good government for the people. It has shall have no hesitation in recommending
been suggested by a delegate from Tas- the acceptance of the bill. A great deal
mania that the people of Tasmania would has been said about the difference between
probably reject the constitution bill when suggestion and amendment. It is idle to
submitted to them, that they would refuso discuss the matter from my point of view.
to enter the federation in consequence of A great deal has also been said about the
the senate being deprived of the power to relative powers of the senate and house of
amend money bills.
representatives. I do not feel disposed to
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : Hear, hear ! enter into the various arguments. It is
The Hon. J. HENRY: My hon. friend sufficient for me that we cannot have feder-
and colleague says “hear, hear." It hap- ation if we defeat this proposal. But we
pens that immediately on iny return from are not going to defeat it. It appears to
Adelaide I called a public meeting in the me there are two extreme parties, not
chief centre of population on the north only in the colony to which I have the
side of the island-Launceston-because honor to belong, but throughout Australia
I, in common with other delegates, had generally. I regard the extreme parties
been much abused in consequence of the as those who, on the one hand, say “There
vote we gave. I submitted the whole shall be no federation unless we have equal
522 Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.1 Australico Bill.
money bills.
representation, and those who, on the injure federation, still thinks the time has
other hand, say
" We will have no feder- not arrived to exercise that act of con-
ation unless the senate has co-ordinate cession. It seems to me that as soon as
powers in money matters in the house of
we possibly can we should dispose of all
representatives."
the irritating points. And if we are going
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : to adjourn these discussions—if after fight-
Very few say that, I think !
ing the matter out in Adelaide we are
The Hon. J. HENRY: There are people going to adjourn it again--it seems to me
who say it.
we shall never have the question settled.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : No I am not going to vote in favour of the bill
one has said it in the Western Australian as it stands because I think it is defensible
Parliament !
on principle. Believing as I do that the
The Hon. J.. HENRY : If I understand ciemand for equal representation is a right
the hon. gentleman aright, the argument --recognising, however, as I do that there
is that the senate has the right to amend are members in this Convention who would
generously give it to us as a concession-I
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I cannot see thatang limitation upon co-ordin-
have not said what will happen if it does ate powers of the houses can be defensible.
not!
Nor do I vote in favour of this bill as it
The Hon. J. HENRY: I am referring stands because I think it necessary that
to the two classes of extremists in the we should deviate from the application of
colony. To my mind, it is a question as what I believe to be a true principle for
to whether there is a sufficient force of the purpose of securing a full and vigor-
moderate opinion between those two ex- ous local responsible government. That,
tremists to justify us in hoping we shall I think, is a plant which can take adequate
have federation at this juncture. After and full care of itself, and no plan we can
these remarks, it is quite unnecessary for
make will interfere with its full growth.
me to say how I shall vote. I shall merely I vote for this clause as it stands, being
follow the vote I gave in Adelaide.
the compromise of 1891, because I desire
Mr.JAMES (Western Australia)[4:28]: to see federation take place, and because I
At the Convention in Adelaide in April last do not want to shut my eyes to the fact
I recorded my vote in favour of the bill.as that that compromise comes before this
it left the Constitutional Committee. If Convention approved and supported by
the amendment is carried the measure will men whose position in this movement is
be placed back in the position in which such that I am absolutely certain that
it was left then. I said that if I thought they would not recommend the representa-
that when the adjourned meeting was held,
tives of the small states to accept any com-
by voting in favour of the principle then promise which would do injustice to the
embodied in the bill as it stood, I should small states, or do wrong to the federa-
retard federation, I should have no hesi- tion. For that reason, I will record my
tation whatever in reversing the vote I vote in favour of the compromise which
then gave. I think if there ever was a comes supported by such high and honor-
convenient opportunity to carry out that
able men.
promise it is now. I cannot for one mo- Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [4:32]: I can-
ment follow the position taken up by Mr. not help thinking that this very interest-
Hackett, who, thinking as I do, would ing debate has wandered a little from the
rather vote against the amendment than question before the Committee. The amend-
1.1
[The Hon. J. Henry.
Cominonwealth of
523
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia. Bill.
.
'
ment before the Chair is to leave out the Mr. HIGGINS: As to that, if we are
words "for imposing taxation and" and, to narrow the dispute down to that one
as I understand it, the object of the right point, I should like to ask the right hon.
hon. member, Sir John Forrest, is to member how he can separate the two
leave the senate in the position of being classes of money bills—bills which impose
unable to exercise full power with regard taxation from bills which authorise expen-
to appropriation bills, but, at the same diture? By refusing to impose taxation
time, to give the senate power to interfere you can practically prevent expenditure.
as it likes with the taxation bills, and that The policy of a government with regard
I understood to be the point of his objec- to expenditure must be controlled by their
tion. He wanted to concede as to appro- policy in regard to taxation. If you tell
priation bills for the purpose of working a government, “We will not allow you
out responsible government. The right certain taxation," you practically tell that
hon. member is willing to cut from the government also, “We will not allow you
senate the power of interfering with ap- the power of expenditure in the direction
propriations, but he wishes to give the in which you intimate you will expend."
senate equal power as to the imposition of The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
taxation ?
You can expend what you have left!
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : As Mr. HIGGINS: Yes, but that is a
to'amending!
very small thing. As a rule our experi-
-Mr. HIGGINS: As to amending. The ence in Australia is that the governments
question before the Chair now is, not the do not keep very much in hand. They
question of suggesting amendments, al- have to look to the taxation for the year,
though there is no doubt that it bears very
or to borrowing perhaps, in some cases, for
much on this particular point. The only
the expenditure of the year. Expenditure
question before the Chair at present is
and taxation are linked together so that
this question—is the senate to have equal you cannot separate them.
powers as to laws imposing taxation ? The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Suppose they reject them?
That is, in initiating!
Mr. HIGGINS: I cannot follow that
Mr. HIGGINS: Of course.
reasoning The only question here is
words before the Chair are--that the senate
whether you are going to give equal
shall have equal power with the house of
powers in regard to taxation and expendi-
representatives in respect of all proposed
ture. Having linked together the two
kinds of money bills for getting money
laws, except laws imposing taxation.
and spending money, I should like hon.
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: I
members to consider just a little more
do not propose to give the power of initia-
fully what the Premier of New South
tion, for all that!
Wales put. You are forgetting that the
Mr. HIGGINS: No, the power of initia-
populations of Victoria and New South
tion has been dealt with in the preceding Wales are about four times as large as the
clause; but, still, the object of the right populations of the other three colonies-
hon. gentleman is that the senate shall
2,600,000 persons as against 650,000 per-
have equal power with the house of repre- sons—and that the taxation is contributed
sentatives with regard to all laws imposing in the same proportion practically. New
taxation, except as to origination.
South Wales and Victoria contribute four
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : times as much taxation as do all the other
Yes !
colonies combined.
The only
524
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : Mr. HIGGINS : I have carefully indi-
Not individually!
cated the qualifications with which that
Mr. HIGGINS : I am not speaking of must be taken. The object of the right
the state of exaltation as regards the hon. member, Sir John Forrest, is to give
finances which we have been reminded so the senate with these qualifications equal
frequently exists in Western Australia for power in regard to laws imposing taxation.
the present. I trust that it will long con- I was very glad that the hon. member, Mr.
tinue; I have every hope that it will. Dobson, was so frank with his aristocratic
Taken as a whole, the populations will con- and conservative prejudices as to state
tribute to the taxation in proportion to the object for which he requires a strong
their numbers.
senate. I hope his words will be put in
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: big flaring advertisements round all the
No, they do not !
different colonies, so that the people will
Mr. HIGGINS: I am speaking of the know exactly what the object is. What
future. The right hon. gentleman cannot struck me was, how my hon. friends, who
forget that he is the Premier of a colony profess to be liberals in South Australia and
with the most lavish revenue that ever elsewhere, like the statement of the hon.
existed in Australia in proportion to num- member, Mr. Dobson, that the object of
bers. Speaking of the future, I say that having a strong senate is to check the will
the amount contributed in taxation will
of the people.
be pretty much in proportion to popula- The Hon. H. DOBSON : Nonsense! I
tion. The extraordinary proposition which never said that!
is proposed for this Convention to adopt The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : His vote is
is that those colonies which contribute in right, but his reasons are wrong!
the proportion of one to four to the taxa- Mr. HIGGINS: The vote is right, but
tion of the commonwealth are to have the the reasons are wrong. The reason for
voice of three to two in the senate, and having a senate, from his point of view, is
that this senate is to have an equal power to check the will of the people. Am I
in dealing with all these matters of taxa- doing the hon. member an injustice?
tion.
The Hon. H. DOBSON: To some extent
The Hon. H. DOBSON : No, not an equal that is right !
power!
Mr. HIGGINS: The object of a strong
Mr. HIGGINS: 1 Equal power
senate is to check the will of the people.
look at the words !
That, I concede, to be the position of those
The Hon. H. DOBSON: No!
conservatives, who are voting in favour of
Mr. HIGGINS: If the hon, member a strong
were at all careful he would not only have The Hon. Sir J. W.DOWNER : The hon.
let the cat out of the bag in regard to the member knows that he is not quoting my
object of having a strong senate but would hon. friend quite fairly !
also have looked at this clause, which says: Mr. HIGGINS: I do not know it, nor
The senate shall have equal power with the do I think anyone would accuse me of
house of representatives in respect of all pro-
being unfair.
posed laws except laws imposing taxation.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Not in-
The proposal now is to have equal power tentionally!
even in regard to laws imposing taxation. Mr. HIGGINS: I am sure hon. mem-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : No; not to in- bers will acquit me of any intention of
crease taxation !
being unfair. I appealed to the hon. mem-
[Mr. Higgins.
Coninconuealth of
525
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ber as to whether the words which I sise was this—that we are dealing at pre-
quoted were not his words practically, and sent only with the question whether the
he said that they were, that they substan- senate is to have equal powers with the
tially represented his object.
house of representatives as to taxation.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The words were
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Is it to
that a strong senate was required to con- have the power of amending a taxation
trol the democratic force !
bill by reducing the amount?
Mr. HIGGINS: Quite so.
Mr. HIGGINS: It is true that the
The hon.
member's avowed object in having a strong
clause prohibits any increase ; but the hon.
senate is to control the democratic force.
gentleman knows perfectly well that you
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Not to let it go
may interfere with the wish of the people
by decreasing as well as by increasing tax-
too fast!
ation. The great tendency on the part of
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST:
the popular houses of some of these colo-
Mr. HIGGINS: My right hon. friend, nies has been to increase taxation. Mea-
the Premier of Western Australia, bas ad- sures with that object have been popular.
ministered the affairs of that colony by
On the other hand, there has been a dis-
reason of the concealment of his power. position on the part of the upper houses
He has been able to conceal the iron hoof to decrease taxation. In those colonies,
with which he has ridden over the destinies for instance, where a protectionist policy
of the colony. I am not referring to that has been adopted, the tendency of the
hon. gentleman. I am referring to the popular house has been to increase taxa-
hon. member, Mr. Dobson, who is a con- tion, and if the hon, member means to say
sistent conservative of Tasmania, following that the senate may not increase taxation
the lead of our venerable friend, Mr. Adye I say, "Thank you for nothing." What I
Douglas. The hon. member's object in want to indicate is that you cannot give
having a strong senate is to control the
over equal powers as to taxing bills to a
democratic force. I, myself, have tried to body which does not represent the people
make it as strong as I could by basing it according to their population. I am glad
on the will of the people, and for the pur- to call attention to the fundamental error
pose of carrying out the behests of the
at the base of the argument of the hon.
people—with a very different motive to member, Sir Jolin Downer, and those who
that of the hon. gentleman. I say that we have spoken so strongly upon his side of
want a strong senate to carry out the the question. Here is the fundamental
people's will; but unless you base it in the error which happened to come out in the
manner I suggested last week you cannot course of the hon. gentleman's eloquent
have it. There is one significant fact- and vehement address : “Why," he said,
that although members of the Convention are we not all here to vote according to
by a huge majority last week murdered the advantage of our constituents?” Surely
proportional representation they cannot it is the very opposite.
get rid of its ghost. It is about them still. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Has the.
It is here, and will follow them. Hardly hon. gentleman fairly stated what I said?
one member who has spoken on this ques- Mr. HIGGINS: I took down the words
tion but has felt bound to refer to equal at the time.
representation. I was led into a digression Mr. LYNE: I also made a note of the
by the interjections of hon. gentlemen words. They were : - Do our best for the
opposite. But what I wanted to empha- states and for our own constituents !”
526
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
to say,
Mr. HIGGINS: Exactly. I say that nice thing for Victoria, and all the colo-
we are not here to do the best we can for nies, because we should have the advantage
our constituents, and I say that if anyone of the £2,000,000 of land revenue in New
takes that view of our federal purpose South Wales forth with. However, we did
here he takes altogether a wrong view of not expect that, and we are not at all
our mission. Our object here is to act, not likely to get it. It would be downright
in accordance with what we think at pre- nonsense to ask for it. New South Wales
sent are the interests of South Australia, is the strong colony, because of its
Tasmania, and Victoria, but to do the best £2,000,000 of land revenue, and she can
we can for the benefit of Australia as a do as she likes in regard to this taxa-
whole without regard to boundaries. That tion question. She can be lavish in her
reminds me of what the right hon. the expenditure for the next fifty years, and
Premier of Tasmania said. He said : " Let still not be crippled in her finances. But
us in this matter of money bills obliterate in Victoria and in the other colonies we
boundaries. What have we to do with have to be careful with our finances. We
the population of New South Wales or have to be very careful in our expendi-
Tasmania ?” That is precisely what we
ture. We find it difficult to get money
have been endeavouring to do—to obliter- from the taxpayer. We do not, therefore,
ate boundaries. That is what we have intend to obliterate boundaries. We in-
been trying to do all the time for federal tend only to set up one nation. I cannot
purposes. It is a nice position to take up support the amendment of the right hon.
"We will obliterate boundaries member, Sir John Forrest, because we in
when it comes to a question of who is to Victoria would not be justified in asking the
get the benefit of the money, but we will people of that colony to allow the senate, no
not do so when it comes to a question of matter upon what foundation it is erected,
who is to have power over the money. to amend money bills. We have not been
That position is untenable. So far as vot- bred in that way. Every man, woman, and
ing goes I think that from my observa- child in Victoria is of a contrary opinion.
tions hon. members will have formed an I admit at once that I do not think there
opinion as to how I intend to vote.
is any very great danger in it, because it
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [4:48]: can only operate in the direction of reduc-
I did not intend to speak at all upon this ing taxation, and if you do not take the
question, and I will now say only a few money out of the pockets of the people,
words. The hon. member who last spoke the money is there. Still, I know it is no
talked about obliterating boundaries, but use to go to our colony. and advocate that
we do not obliterate boundaries. The states view, and I am sure it is the same in New
as states are not obliterated. We do not South Wales. So that I hope the Right
intend that they should be, because that Hon. Sir John Forrest will not insist upon
would mean unification. It would mean his proposal. We are grateful to those
going back to the condition of things which members from Tasmania who, at the Ade-
obtained when I, myself, first arrived in laide Convention, voted in the way which
Australia many years ago.
was so much desired, and thus saved us
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Not from actual collapse. I am glad that that
for the states; but for the commonwealth! . view is gaining ground, and I hope that
The Hon. S. FRASER: For federal the division on this occasion will be even
purposes we nationalise ourselves.
more emphatic than it was on the last
obliterated boundaries, it would be a very
occasion.
If we
1
[Mr. Ilggins.
Commonwealth of
527
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Aristralia Bill,
The Hon. W. MOORE (Tasmania) The Hon. W. MOORE: But hon. gen-
[4:51].: The hon. gentleman who has just tlemen are all the time arguing that the
sat down seemed to me not to draw a dis- powers of the two houses are co-equal.
tinction between the functions of respon- Now, the powers proposed to be given to
sible government as applied to a unified the senate and those proposed to be given
government and the functions of respon- to the house of representatives are dis-
sible government as applied to a federal similar in every way. Attempts have
government, and that is a distinction been made to weaken, to emasculate, and
which has not been observed through- to destroy every power which should
out this debate. It is entirely different legitimately belong to a senate, and we are
when you apply the functions of respon- asked to go on in that direction from step
sible government to a number of federated to step. An attempt is being made-and
states joined together as we propose to be no doubt it will succeed—to prevent the
joined in this federation. No one has yet senate from amending money bills. Now,
pointed out that the functions of respon- in Tasmania, in the exercise of responsible
sible government are incompatible with government in our own way, the Legis-
federation. The United States and Switzer- lative Council have exercised the power
land afford the best types of federation of of amending money bills for the last forty
which we know at the present time. In years, and if you were to poll Tasmania
the United States the principle of respon- to-morrow, I do not think you would find
sible government would be foreign to the one man who would say tbat the system
working of the federal constitution. The has not worked advantageously. At this
federation of Switzerland has been framed moment I should be willing to give way
on almost the same lines as those of the even on this particular point if I thought
United States, and in the case of Switzer- the matter would rest there. But what
land also the principles of responsible go- is to be the next move? As soon as the
vernment have not been applied. In the senate is deprived of the power to amend
work upon which we are now engaged we money bills, the next movement will be to
are endeavouring to form a federation on a deprive it of the power of suggestion, and,
principle never known before. We are when that has been done, the next attempt
endeavouring to federate a number of will be to completely extinguish the power
colonies, and to apply to the working of of the senate by means of the referendum.
the finance of that federation the principles That is the tendency that has been evident
of responsible government. This is entirely from time to time, and I do not think we
new, and we cannot look back through the ought to give way to it. No senate in the
vista of history for any evidence or proof to world was ever constituted on so wide and
show how it will work. I have no doubt popular a basis as the senate we propose
that in the end we shall be able to arrive to establish. There is to be a representa-
at a satisfactory adjustment; but I cannot tion of the whole of the state, and if each
see how the system of federal government representative is to be elected by the whole
is to work properly or advantageously, of the state, surely the senate should be
unless some power is given to the senate. able to exercise some power in proportion
I think the senate in a federal parliament to the way in which it is elected. We
should have a great deal more power than a are now constituting a senate for which
senate under a unified form of government. we have no precedent either in ancient or
The Hon. S. FRASER : We are giving modern history. For these reasons I think
you more power !
the senate should have the necessary
528
Australia Bill,
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
.
power to deal with money bills to a cer- until we deal with all tho points. I do not
tain extent. I do not claim that it should think it is necessary that I should take
have the power of initiating money bills. up any further time. I intend to vote for
It is here where a fog or mist has been the amendment of tlie Right Hon. Sir
thrown around the question, and where
John Forrest for the reasons I have given.
an attempt has been made to show that I voted for the same amendment in 1891,
in the constitution we are about to form, and again in Adelaide, and I shall do so
the two houses are to have co-equal powers. now. I would not do so if I thought that
What is the fact? The fact is that the concession on this point would bring a final
senate is to have no power of initiation. settlement. But in the absence of any proof
That is the first step. The next step is
or desire to meet on common grounds, I
that the house of representatives is to be shall feel it my duty to vote for the amend-
governed by the principles of responsible ment. I am an ardent federationist, and
government. What does that mean? It am very desirous that these colonies should
means that the house of representatives be federated ; but I cannot understand the
shall have absolute power. In America, attempts that are made from time to time
the Senate has power to elect the executive. to weaken the powers of the senate. We
Under the proposed federation, the house of are creating a senate on the bed-rock of
representatives will have the power of elect- liberal representation, and on a principle
ing the executive, and, consequently, the never known before in history. Surely
executive government will be entirely sub- such a senate should have some little
ject to the will of that chamber. Is that power. We do not give the senate any
not a very large power? All these powers power of initiation, and it is to have no
are vested in the house of representatives, control over money bills beyond a mere
and yet the senate is not to be allowed veto. I hope, nevertheless, that we may
the power to amend a money bill. As I come to a decision with regard to federa-
said before, I should be willing to give tion. I believe it will be for the good of
way on this point if I did not know that all Australia, and for every one of us. As
those who are endeavouring to emasculate far as my own colony is concerned, it was
and destroy the powers of the senate would never in a more prosperous condition, and
not be satisfied to stop there. On the con- we can look forward with hope to the
trary, I am perfectly sure that, if I vote future. We would like to work harmoni-
for the bill now, and against the amend- ously with the other colonies for a com-
ment of the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest, mon destiny- for that great object we all
the next step will be to destroy every came here to endeavour to accomplish.
power that belongs to the senate.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest: Wales) [5.1]: I intend to vote against this
Referendum and dissolution !
amendment, and to adhere in this clause to
The Hon. W. MOORE: Exactly. I am the provisions that were agreed to in 1891,
so pleased at the action of the larger colo. and again agreed to in 1897 at Adelaide.
nies in giving equal representation, that I The arrangement of these clauses come to
think we ought to meet thenı as far as in 1891 has been spoken of repeatedly as
possible, and if we had any guarantee “the 1891 compromise." Well, except in
that this would satisfy them, we might the sense that you cannot make a federal
consent to go so far. But we have no government without compromise—that a
guarantee of the kind, and, I dare say, we federal government is a compromise in
shall have to fight the matter step by step itself-it is, perhaps, a misnomer to apply
[The Hon. W. Moore.
Commonwealth of
529
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
- the
the term "compromise" to these clauses; vernment or that responsible government
but they were carried by a majority of five must kill fecleration ; but I do not think,
or six in the Convention of 1891. When after all, that the putting of an argument of
I speak of these clauses as compro- that kind in so strong and direct a way
mise of 1891," and urge their acceptance should altogether deprive us of the hope
now, I must not for a moment be under- that we can make such an adjustment be-
stood to say that because they were agreed tween the federal idea and the spirit of
to in 1891 they ought to be accepted now. responsible government as will enable a
It is my opinion that they should be federation to continue without undue in-
accepted now, because they are a reason- road on the rights and individualities of
able arrangement-not because a former the states, and will also enable responsible
convention adopted them for we should government—that is, government respon-
be forgetting the true purpose for which sible to one house of the legislature--to be
we were sent here if we were to say that continued with the force and life with
because our predecessors, sitting six years
which we know it. "The compromise of
ago, came to the opinion which is expressed 1891,” as it has been called—and as I say,
by these clauses, therefore it is our duty perhaps wrongly called-has been very
to accept them now. That is a doctrine well described by Sir Samuel Griffith, and
to which I am not to be accused of sub- I will quote from his opinion, expressed
scribing
after the adoption of those clauses in 1891.
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: We He also calls it a “compromise "-I take
do not say that at all !
it, again, in the sense that the idea of com-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not say promise is inseparable from the idea of
that anybody here bas asserted it; but I federation, that it must be a compromise
think it was argued in Adelaide, when some between a system of national government
of us voted as we shall now, that the com- and a system vital to federal government.
promise of 1891 should be adhered to, and
we were afterwards accused in this colony I think it is a very reasonable compromise,
of having supported that compromise
and that all those in the Convention who really
desire to see a federation of Australia brought
simply because we slavishly followed the
about might fairly accept it or something like it.
opinions of 1891. That is a false accusa-
It is of no use for hon. members to profess to
tion, and I think that I should take the want federation while they refuse to accept the
earliest opportunity of refuting it. The means necessary to obtain it.
reason why these clauses were supported Then at the end of his speech, he adds :
in the form in which they now stand- I am perfectly satisfied that under this con-
which is essentially the form of 1891– stitution there will be no unification, because
was because it seemed to those who sup-
state rights will be perfectly preserved.
ported them that they embodied the best That is, speaking of the constitution as a
adjustmentof the question of money powers whole, containing clauses practically iden-
that could be arrived at, having regard to tical with these. That is the opinion of a
the necessity of conserving the principles very high authority—I think an authority
of federation on the one hand, and having whose knowledge of this question and whose
on the other hand the necessity of conserv- earnestness in its advocacy everyone of us
ing, as far as possible, the principles of re- admires, and I take it that Sir Samuel Grif-
sponsible government. It has been urged fith's opinion may be regarded with comfort
by you, sir, and with very great force, that by those hon. gentlemen, coming from the
either federation must kill responsible go- smaller colonies, who would rather expose
He says:
20
5.3.0
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.
themselves to attack from those who have for this cause if he thinks it is a high one,
not sufficiently considered the question and if he thinks it is his duty to the citi-
elsewhere, than run the risk of causing this zens of Australia to accomplish it. Those
great movement to be abandoned simply of us who represent those two colonies know
because of difference of opinion on this that, with such a power inserted in this
question. I was a little disappointed, be- constitution, we may bid good-bye to the
cause of my very great respect for him, to endeavour to induce our electors to accept
hear my hon. and learned friend, Mr. the bill. Of that I am as confident às I
Dobson, talk of controlling the democratic know that I stand here.
force. It is true that the phrase has been The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
explained by my right hon. friend, Sir You must educate them up to that point !
Edward Braddon, as meaning “guide the The Hon. E. BARTON: We have
democratic force." When I heard that educated them up to a certain point. We
phrase it seemed to me to imply something have educated them so far as to understand
more than that kind of guidance which that in a federal government there must
a representative of the people exercises
be some adjustment between the rights of
with a full sense of his responsibility. We the states as separate entities and the in-
must have regard for opinion out of doors. dividual rights of the units of the people.
Public opinion in favour of this scheme is We have educated them, I think, so far as
only a translation of goodwill for this to understand that, and so as to see that
scheme, and it is upon the goodwill of the an adjustment of those rights, of some sort
people of the various colonies-giving up, or other, is an essential to a federation ;
in some instances, ideas which they have but we have not, cannot, and shall not try
cherished, on finding a constitution which to educate them to the thought that the
they can in the main adopt—it is on the adoption of a federation embodies the
goodwill of the people of these colonies abandonment of that system of responsible
that we must rest this federal movement, government which we consider to be the
otherwise it must utterly collapse. I natural outcome of true democratic feeling
should be the last to mention a word in -that feeling which, conservative as some
the nature or the sense of a threat ; but of us may be considered in some places,
surely some regard, and strong regard, it is our duty to conserve. That, we
must be had for the position of those two must think of; that, we must abide by ;
colonies whose populations number be- and that, at any rate, is an explanation of
tween thein some 2,500,000, or very nearly the action we shall take in supporting these
2,500,000, out of the total population that clauses; but I am indeed glad to find that
is represented by the gentlemen assembled that feeling, and the knowledge of that posi-
in this chamber. I say seriously-not in tion, actuate many of those hon. members
any sense of what is called "bluff," and I who are not representing New South Wales
am sure I shall be acquitted of speaking in and Victoria, and who see that unless that
that sense—I say seriously that if you spirit, and the feeling and opinion of those
were to grant power to the senate to amend great numbers of people are in some mea-
taxation bills, the result of your granting sure acceded to, resting as they do on the
i hat power in this constitution would be a system of government which they have
failure of your scheme. I do not say
that found just and good, the scheme is doomed
in the least degree with the view of in- to failure. I said at the very outset that
fluencing any hon. member's vote, except I did not threaten. I leave expressions
thus: that I must appeal to his regard of that kind to gentlemen who are not
The Hon. E. Barton,
Commonwealth of [14 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
531
unused to threats. But it is my duty to The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not
the Convention to explain, as far as I
can, speaking of this point. That has no effect,
the position of the country which I repre- and does not turn me from my course at
sent, and I solemnly say that I believe all. I am perfectly aware what resolu-
I express the feelings of that country most tions were passed in the South Australian
truly. We cannot accept the amendment legislature. I simply intend to point out
if to accept it is to put back federation. that we have added to the statements of
That is the one, the last, the convincing the Premiers of New South Wales and
argument against the proposal, the argu- Victoria, that of the Premier of South
ment which in the end must prevail. I Australia, notwithstanding the fact that
believe that the people of this colony, the South Australian legislature has sug-
and the people of Victoria, will accept gested certain amendments in the bill.
the principle of the equal representation The right hon. member, Mr. Kingston, is
of states in the senate; but I believe that still in power, in the only way in which
the principle will not be accepted if you a prime minister can remain in power,
give such powers to the senate as will namely, with a majority behind him, and
make the system of responsible govern- being in that position I take it that he
ment, as we understand it, utterly unwork- is able to gauge public opinion in his
able. I think that that is the true adjust- colony.
Therefore his statement adds
ment of this position, and the adjustment weight to the opinions advanced by the
which is really expressed by a combination representatives of New South Wales and
of clause 9 with this and the preceding Victoria. I should like further to revert
clause. The Premier of South Australia to an observation of the hon. member,
tells me that, without safeguards of this Mr. Dobson. He practically told us that
kind to ensure the living force of respon- we were wasting time in a discussion of
sible government, the constitution would this kind, because if we sat here with
not be accepted in South Australia. For closed doors, making speeches of a minute's
that I cannot personally vouch, of course;
duration or a little more, we might quickly
but I accept the right hon. gentleman's come to an agreement embodying a genuine
statement as strengthening my conten- scheme of federation which would be ac-
tion.
cepted by the people outside. I grant
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: The that if we sat with closed doors we could
Premier of South Australia is the only more quickly come to an arrangement on
member of the South Australian delega- this subject than we can by the process of
tion who will vote against the amend- debating in public, because some of us
ment!
would not then need to make such long
The Hon. E. BARTON : Well, he hap- speeches; but if we were to follow the pro-
pens to be Premier, and has a majority in cess which the hon. member regards as so
the legislature of South Australia.
much superior to the present one, the dif.
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: ficulty would be that the constitution,
Both houses of the South Australian legis- which might be the most valuable one
lature carried resolutions in favour of this
upon earth if once accepted, would be so
proposal !
much waste paper, because no population
The Hon. E. BARTON: The right hon. in any of these colonies would look at it,
member, Mr. Kingston, happens to have a or approach it, except for the purpose of
majority in the Legislative Assembly. kicking it. How is it to be expected that
Mr. SOLOMON : Not on this point ! the free people of this country are to have
$32 Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australici Bill.
the adjustment of a constitution made power to amend appropriation bills is not
behind their backs, and without knowing to be conceded to the senate, therefore
what debates had taken place in the their power is confined to the amendment
framing of it? I grant that you can have of tax bills. But what is the result of
select committees to set out formal propo- amending a tax bill? Take the position of
sitions for the Convention : but it will an administration which has to raise the
be the duty of the Convention to de. funds necessary for the government of a
bate these propositions. This debate must colony. Its requirements are so many
take place in the open light of day. If thousand or million pounds; but if the
we did not debate the matter in this raising of £300,000 or £400,000 of this
way, how absurd it would be for us, with amount is embodied in its taxation pro-
our experience of public life, to think for posals, and these proposals are cut down by
a moment that we could induce any free the senate to one-half, what becomes of the
people to accept our work. Now, if we are appropriation bill? Can any one say that
to have two houses, and intend to act on the appropriation will not have to be re-
the principles of responsible government, duced to the same extent? That amount
and to conserve those principles, we ought of money cannot be spent, unless hon.
not to put into the hands of the senate the members think it wise to involve the fed-
power to utterly destroy the financial policy eration in a course of deficit at the start.
of a government. That is the position which If you give power to amend tax bills, to
would arise here. I grant you that de- that extent you give indirect power to cut
struction may be worked in some cases by down the expenditure. A governmenti
veto; but the course of vetoing is under-
cannot live within its means if, when you
taken upon a much greater responsibility cut down the taxation it proposes to levy,
than the course of amending; and a second and which has been agreed to by the other
chamber would consider ten times before chamber, it does not in a corresponding
it vetoed, though only once or twice before way reduce its estimate of expenditure.
it amended.
Therefore, the power to reduce tax bills
An Hon, MEMBER : No doubt about is virtually a power to reduce estimates.
that!
This cannot be got away from. If you
The Hon. E. BARTON: Of course put into the hands of the senate the power
there is not. The difficulty which besets to amend tax bills, to the extent to which
my bon. friend is that he proposes to put they cut down proposed taxation once
into the hands of such a body the right agreed to by the other house, they do cut
to adopt a course about which it will down expenditure authorised or to be autho-
not feel so much responsibility ; but by rised by the estimates and appropriation
repetition of which it may work more bill. To give power to do the one is to
destruction. That is the danger. Let give power to do the other. Anyone who
us put the matter in this way.
knows the way in which the government of
told that the amendment is only an amend- these colonies is carried on must see that
ment to give the senate power to alter with a general policy that surpluses are to
tax bills.
be avoided prevailing-and I wish that the
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : To policy were equally to avoid deficits—with
reduce them !
a policy which says that it is the right
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes, to alter thing for a treasurer to avoid surpluses,
them by way of reduction. Of course we the general course is to equalise revenue
are confidently left to suppose that as the and expenditure as far as possible. When
We are
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
533
¡14 SEPT. 1897..
Australia Bill.
the course of allowing the second chamber ing bills is a question whether you will have
to amend a tax bill is once agreed to, the the government responsible to two cham-
result must be that the power of enforcing bers or to one. I may be forgiven for the
that amendment will also be the power sake of shortness for quoting some words
of reducing the expenditure as well. So which I used in Adelaide, which I think
that to nominally withhold the power in are pertinent on the present occasion. I
the constitution will have no effect. If then said :
you give the responsibility to the lower We are told this is a question of a mere choice
house, you cannot grant this power to the of words, that is to say, that the power of amend-
upper house. If you are going to consti-
ing taxation is practically the same as the power
to make suggestions. The question of responsi-
tute a system of responsible government
bility arises again. If the second chamber makes
in which the responsibility of the ministry
suggestions such as are enabled to be made in this
will be shared between the two cham- colony (South Australia) under the compact of
bers, in which the ministry will have one
1857, which is not a matter of law but a matter
leg in the grave and the other out of it
of agreement; if the second chamber makes sug-
gestions under an agreement of that sort, and
--if you are going to do that sort of thing if the suggestions are not adopted, that house
then you will probably put the ministry must face the responsibility of deciding whether
in the position of that gentleman-of it will reto the bill or not. If the procedure is
course not in one of these colonies—who to be by way of amendment, and the amend-
had two wives, an old and a young one.
ments are disagreed with by the house of repre-
sentatives, and are still insisted upon by the
The gentleman, like some of us, had hair
second chamber, then it is upon the house of
slightly streaked with grey. The old wife
representatives that the responsibility must rest
used to busy herself in pulling out all of destroying its own measure. The responsi.
his black hairs; his young wife used to
bility for the loss of the measure under the first
būsy herself in pulling out all his grey
set of circumstances must attach to the second
chamber. But, in the second case, suppose it is
hairs.. The result was that the unfortunate
forced upon the very chamber which has affirmed
husband was rapidly made bald. That
the measure. Can there be a greater difference
would be, metaphorically speaking, the
between the two positions than that? In the
position of a government which endea-
first case the responsibility rests where it should,
with those who wish to negative the policy of
voured to carry on responsible government
finance upon which the entire government of the
with responsibility to two houses instead
country hangs; because withoutmoney you cannot
of to one. If then you are to have re- govern. If the policy of the ministry according to
their desires in the main is not carried out there
sponsibility to one house, and to one house
must be another ministry, and those who lead to
alone, you cannot give the senate this power.
the formation of that ministry should take the
If you do so you will put the government responsibility. If the procedure is by way of
in the position of the elderly gentleman suggestion, which is insisted upon, the senate
must take the responsibility of the veto.
of whom I have spoken. I do not want
If it
to detain the Convention at great length,
is by way of amendment, and that amendment
is disagreed with, it is the lower house that
but I should like to say something about must take the responsibility of the destruction
the power of suggestion. The power of of its own work. There cannot be a greater
suggestion which we propose to grant, and
difference than there is between the two posi-
tions. This is not a mere
- choice of words."
not the power of amendment, differs from
It embodies in it a grave situation, which may
the power of amendment very seriously arise from tiine to time. I have been always
in this respect, that it places the respon- willing that this power of suggestion should be
sibility upon the right shoulders, and the given a power which will enable one house to
express itself in a perfectly dignified way—for
whole of this question is a question of re-
it would not belittle any chamber to take this
sponsibility. The question of amending tax- course any more than it does in this colony,
534
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
where the Legislatire Council, which is a strong you could, you threw the bill under the
body, has the power of making suggestions
table." Does not that put upon the min-
which it exercises. I am perfectly willing that
that course should be taken by leave of law, not
istry, and the house that supports them, a
because I do not believe it is an effective course responsibility which, under no system of
because it has a power in it-but because, if fair play, ought to be placed on their
wrongly taken, the displacement of the financial
shoulders? I submit that is so. I do not
policy of the country by those who oppose it
can be placed at the doors of those who make
wish to weary hon, meņbers, and I would
themselves responsible.
not have spoken at such length if I did
not think it my duty to address myself to
So I say there is a difference between the
clauses so important as these; but I do
power of suggestion which we propose to
give and the power of amendment. The
impress upon this Convention that they
difference in the position is that if a power
should pursue the same course as was taken
in Adelaide. I believe that the system pro-
of suggestion is exercised the responsibility
posed in this bill is one which, notwithstand-
will rest on the right shoulders. That is
ing objections in some quarters, can, with
to say, if the senate takes upon itself the
proper safeguards be assented to. It may
responsibility of making a suggestion, and,
if that is not agreed to, of vetoing a mea-
be as some hon. members have urged, that
there should be put into it some provision
sure, it will have to take the full responsi-
to deal with deadlocks; but with proper
bility of its action. Whereas if you give
safeguards I think the provisions of this
the power of amendment, if that amend-
bill can be accepted in each colony. There
ment is disagreed with by the lower house,
is a line of demarcation where, notwith-
and is insisted upon by the house which
originated it, the government have no alter- standing objections, the great advantages
native but to lay the measure aside. They
to be gained by federation will be deemed
have to take the immense responsibility of
a sufficient reason for overlooking those
objections. Let us adopt this course. Let
negativing the very policy which they have
us stand by this clause as it is, and by doing
put before the country. To put that re-
so we shall have made the longest step yet
sponsibility upon them is not true consti-
taken in the direction of gaining the great
tutional government.
and noble end we are here to attain.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Will not the
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) (5.27] :
government throw the responsibility on
As I was one of the South Australian men-
the amending house in that case ?
bers who, at the last sitting of the Conven-
The Hon. E. BARTON: They cannot do tion, helped to shape this part of the bill as
so entirely. The people may turn round it now stands, and as that course was not
" You brought in this measure; indorsed by either of the houses of Par-
you knew that we wanted this policy; the liament in South Australia, and know-
house of representatives supported you in ing that you, sir, who occupy a deservedly
passing it; if you did not get all you high position as an authority on federa-
wanted, why did you not take all you tion, have endeavoured to point out the
could get ? We wanted this system of danger of taking away this power of amend-
direct taxation in substitution for protec- ment from the senate, I trust I may be ex-
tion (or it may be to get rid of direct cused for detaining the House for a few mo-
taxation by establishing protection). We ments in explaining my reasons for stand-
empowered you to do this thing, You ing by the vote I then gave. Besides, if
brought in a bill to do it, and when the there is anything which should induce an
bill was amended, instead of getting all hon. member to offer his opinions on this
and say:
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
535
[14 SEPT.,, 1897.
Australia Bill.
]
occasion, it is that this is probably the League ; so that the allegation that if we
last meeting of the Convention. We are give way now we are paving the way to
now engaged upon a most serious task; ask for further concessions, does not stand
we are moulding the destinies of a nation. the test of experience. Again, we have
Although we may have beforeus the promise Lad from Sir John Downer and it shows
of a future wbich will fulfil our noblest as- how mistaken historical analogies usually
pirations, wemust be careful that we do not are-a repetition of an argument from
leave impressions on the public mind as analogy which, though of force as regards
to the effect of, a particular line of policy equal representation, is utterly inapplicable
which may wreck the chances of thatfuture: to the question of granting the upper house
We have heard from the Right Hon. Sir power to amend money bills. He pointed to
John Forrest a very strong speech from the case of the confederated states. Those
the point of view which he bas taken. I states undoubtedly kept up the power of
was exceedingly sorry to hear the hon. amending money bills, but they went fur-
member
say
that the evident object of the ther. They gave the power of vetoing appro-
representatives of the large states was to priations to their presidents. The constitu-
curtail and cut down the powers of the
tion of the confederated states went even
senate, and eventually practically to pro- further than that. It took away from Con-
pose the sweeping away of that body. We gress the power of imposing protective
had an opinion of the same kind reiterated duties—and the reason was the same in all
by one of my colleagues, Sir John Downer, cases--because they knew that up to that
because he told us that the more we gave point the popular house had abused its
-the more we weakened the senate the powers of taxation. They sought for a
more was asked from us, Then we had check upon it. They thought they had
the Hon. Mr. Moore, of Tasmania, stating found it in continuing the power of amend-
that he feared the larger states, and that it ment of money bills to the upper house, and
was incumbent upon him to fight step by in imposing the additional checks of veto-
step rather than give way upon
the
ques- ing money bills, and in tying the hands of
tion of conferring this power of amendment the Congress as to the power of imposing
upon the senate.
A conclusive answer to protective duties. The analogy does not
the statements of these hon. gentlemen is apply, therefore, at all, and is utterly in-
the fact that the compromise with regard adequate. Again, what do we find in
to equal representation in the senate was America ? The right hon, member, Mr.
made with the aid of the votes of the re- Reid, properly said that we cannot point
presentatives of the largest colonies; and to a single case of a consolidation consti-
the Victorian Assembly, notwithstanding tution of the British type, in which the
it was said that the concession had been power of amending money bills is given to
made prematurely, affirmed the principle of the upper house. But if we go to America,
equal representation in the senate. Their what do we find? We find in many of the
action upon that point was indorsed by state constitutions, as well as in the Con
societies through Victoria, formed princi- stitution of the United States itself, the
pally with the object of achieving federation. power of amending money bills exists, and
I believe the vote given in this Convention that power has been granted since 1864 in
during the last day or two by several of the all cases where recasts of the constitutions
Victorian delegates on the principle of equal have taken place. One of the reasons was
representation was indorsed by the Vic- to impose a check on the abuse of taxation
torian branch of the Australian National by the lower house-a check, by the way,
536 Commonwealth of [14 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
which the right hon. member, Mr. Reid, that you cannot possibly have co-ordinate
has shown to be utterly useless, owing to powers wherever there is responsibility to
the way in which the Senate has fallen in either one or two houses. We know that
with all the abuses of taxation during the that applies to the British Constitution.
last two years by the House of Represen- We have at times the responsibility of
tatives in America. But another reason the two houses, and we know this
respon-
exists, and it is one of great significance. sibility has led to continuous changes of
In America they have not the principle of ministries. He says:
responsible government. The power of The United States is the only great country in
amendment was given to the Senate, be-
the world in which the two houses are really
cause there was no ministry in parliament equal and co-ordinate. Such a system could
hardly work, and, therefore, could not last if
responsible for the estimates or for taxa-
the executive were the creature of either or both,
tion power. Consequently they endea-
nor unless both were in touch with the sovereign
voured to make up for this deficiency by people.
giving a sort of checking power to the I go a step further, and I say that we can-
Senate. I am sustained upon that point not justify, as a matter of expediency, the
by Mr. Bryce. Mr. Bryce, in his work on denial of the power of amendment to the
the American Constitution, states that upper house. Why is it that the state
where the estimates are in the popular should have this power? Is it not for
house cut down, they always rely on the giving expression in matters of taxation
Senate replacing items which ought to be to their federal ideas.
Is not the assump-
kept in. Under the British Constitution tion that they have state interest separate
we know the ministry responsible for from the consolidation interest, which
the estimates has to shift in such a case; must be expressed by giving this extraor-
but there is no possibility of setting things dinary power? There are really, in matters
right in America unless the senate has the of taxation no state interests at all. Tax-
power of amendment, or of replacing in the
ation is really a consolidation matter. If
estimates items which have been struck
a taxing bill were introduced into Parlia-
out. Mr. Bryce, explaining how it was that ment, the separation of the states would
the power of amendment was given to the not be between large and small states, but
Upper House in America, said :
the combination might include-for in-
: If the House cut down the estimates, they stance, under a protective tariff-South
return it to the Senate, and beg it to restore the
Australia and Victoria. Therefore, I fail
omitted items. If the Senate fail them, the
to see where there is any necessity for the
only resource left is a deficiency bill next
session.
protection of state interests by giving this
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That really was power of amendment. I believe that if
because at the time the American Constitu- this concession is not granted, we shall very
tion was formed the exclusive right of the largely endanger the prospects of federa-
House of Commons in financial matters tion, and for that reason I shall stick to
had not been thoroughly established ! the vote I gave in the Adelaide Convention.
Mr. GLYNN : It is at all events a jus- The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
tification. Mr. Bryce goes further than Australia) [5.38] : I am exceedingly
saying it is merely a justification; he says anxious to get on with business, and I
it was one of the reasons for this power deplore the tendency to make long speeches.
being granted in all state constitutions. I do not think that I have taken up five
Therefore, my allegation on that point was minutes of the time of the Convention, for
correct. But Bryce goes on to point out the very reason that I want to see busi-
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
537
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ness proceed. I do not say that I have The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not the votes,
anything to complain of those who have but the number of residents !
felt it absolutely necessary to enter into The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: The senate
very long disquisitions of their views, but will be just as democratic a body as the
I protest that hon. gentlemen like Mr. house of representatives, and will be the
Higgins, who discourses as much as anybody special safeguard of democracy, because it
in the Convention, and possibly more, should will be the house which will be specially
taunt into speech those who, like myself, elected for the protection of autonomy,
want to come to a vote as quickly as pos- homerule, and thegovernment of the people
sible. The hon. member said he could not in the affairs they understand best.
understand-looking most pointedly at An Hon. MEMBER : The hon, member
-me-how a liberal from South Australia
is going to vote in the same way as Mr.
could possibly vote with such conservative Dobson !
members as some of those who are going
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: The hon.
to be on the same side of the division as
member is tempting me to make a speech,
myself. I should like to know how he,
but I will disappoint him. I am not going
who is always running a tilt against the
to speak on that subject. I only say that
Legislative Council in Victoria, can justify
I will give the same vote in the interests
the yote he is presently going to give of democracy as I have given on so many
alongside the embodiment and chief cham-
occasions. I believe in the government.of
pion of that house, Sir William Zeal.
the people by the people ; but I think
Let him explain his inconsistency, and
those on the spot best understand the con-
then I think he will have a right to ask ditions which suit their requirements, and
me to explain mine. I only desire to say
the senate will be a house, a democratic
one or two words. I have no reason to ex-
house, elected to protect the opinions of
plain my vote at length, because I ain going
those on the spot best understanding their
to vote the saine way this time as I voted
requirements, and believing in local govern-
in 1891, the same way as I voted in 1897,
ment, home rule, and autonomy, I will
and the same way as I shall always vote
Zin the interests of liberalism; because I
vote again as I did before.
regard the maintenance of the state entity
Question-That the words “laws im-
as the safeguard of democracy. The hon. posing taxation and” stand part of the
member talks about the senate as if it were clause-put. The Committee divided :
going to be a rigidly conservative house.
Ayes, 28; noes, 19; majority, 9.
How can a house that is elected by manhood
AYES.
votes be a conservative house? The thing
Abbott, Sir Joseph Lewis, N. E.
is too preposterous, and the hon. member
Berry, Sir G.
Lyne, W. J.
inust know it. There was an interjection Brown, N. J.
McMillan, W.
from another hon. member from Victoria Brunker, J. N. Peacock, A. J.
that because the number of votes of some of
Carruthers, J. H. Quick, Dr. J.
the states in the senate was to be larger
Clarke, M. J.
Reid, G. H.
Deakin, A.
Symon, J. H.
than that of others, therefore it could not
Fraser, S.
Trenwith, W. A.
be representative of the popular will. I Fysh, Sir P. O. Turner, Sir G.
would ask how that would apply to the Glynn, P. M.
Walker, J. T.
case of the Legislative Assembly in Vic-
Henry, J.
Wise, B. R.
Higgins, H. B.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
toria, where I understand the number of
Isaacs, I. A.
votes in some districts varies from 4,000
James, W. H.
Teller,
to over 20,000.
Kingston, C. C. Barton, E.
2 P
538
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[14 SEPT., 1897.]
Noes.
when he proposes to take two very im-
Briggs, H.
Henning, A. H.
portant matters-clause 52 and the clause
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Holder, F. W.
Crowder, F. T. Howe, J. H.
relating to the powers of the executive ?
Dobson, H.
Leake, G.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Douglas, A.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G. Wales) [5-49]: I am perfectly willing to
Downer, Sir J. W. Moore, W.
consult the feeling of the majority of the
Gordon, J. H.
Solomon, V. L.
Grant, C. H.
Venn, H. W.
Convention as to the order in which we
Hackett, J. W. :
Teller,
take important subjects. It is suggested
Hassall, A. Y.
Forrest, Sir J.
that, to-morrow, the various suggestions
Question so resolved in the affirmative. which have been made to deal with con-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
flicts between the two houses should be
sembly of New South Wales :
taken. That may take us some time to-
Sub-clause I, lines 3 and 4. Omit " the neces- morrow-possibly it may take us all day
sary supplies for the ordinary annual services
-but, as we shall sit to-morrow night, we
of the Government ;' insert "
any part of the
public revenues or moneys.”
may reach some of the matters which the
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
hon. member speaks of. I take it that by
[5.47]: I think, sir, there is a further
the end of to-morrow we shall probably
have dealt with the constitution of each
amendment suggested by the Tasmanian
Assembly, but after the vote which has
house, the powers in regard to money bills,
been taken I certainly shall not press that
and the provisions as to conflicts between
amendment.
the two houses ; and we might well then
The CHAIRMAN: This is the amendment take the legislative powers of the two
houses and consider after that whether we
suggested by the Legislative Assembly of
New South Wales.
shall go straight on with the bill in the
The Hon. E. BARTON : That is practi- ordinary way, or take the clauses relating
to the executive.
cally the same thing!
Amendment negatived.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: When shall we
The CHAIRMAN : It is further proposed
have the Finance Committee's report?
by the Legislative Council of South Aus-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not aware
tralia to amend the paragraph by striking
what the Finance Committee are doing,
out the words
and, therefore, I can give no answer to
but the senate may not amend any proposed law
my friend's question. But if the right
in such a manner as to increase any proposed hon. the Premier of Victoria is likely to
charge or burden on the people.
leave on Saturday, I would suggest to the
Amendment negatived.
Finance Committee--and I think I can
Sub-clause I agreed to.
rely upon the right hon. gentleman's influ-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South ence, under the circumstances, as a mem-
Wales) [5:17]: There may be some fur- ber of the committee---that they should
ther discussion on this clause, but we take some means of accelerating their meet-
cannot take it, as we are not going to sit ings in some such way that we shall have
after tea to night.
the financial clauses discussed before my
Progress reported.
right hon. friend leaves.
Motion (by Mr. BARTON) proposed : The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South
That leave be given to sit again to-morrow, Australia) [5:51]: I would point out to
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South the leader of the Convention that the
Australia [5:48]: I wish to ask the leader preferable course would be to finish the
of the Convention if he will state plainly constitutional questions. For instance the
7
Petition.
539
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Conimonwealth Bill.
relations of the executive to the two for the recognition of the Deity; for a
houses is a most important question, and system of effective voting in the election
I should like to have an opportunity to of the senate ; for the limitation of the
address the Convention upon that ques- taxing powers of the federal parliament so
tion. I would suggest to the hon. gentle- that direct taxation may only be imposed
man, therefore, that we should finish the in the event of war; and for the retention
constitutional questions first before pro- of the right of appeal to the Privy Council.
ceeding to consider the legislative powers Petition received.
of the houses.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
NOTICE OF MOTION.
Wales) [5.52] : Really, I am not particu- Mr. McMILLAN gave notice that to-
larly concerned whether we take the
morrow he would move :
executive clauses or the legislative clauses
That the minutes of the proceedings of the
first. If my hon. friend, Mr. Holder,
Finance Committee appointed at Adelaide be
printed.
would be content to see the clauses taken
in the order now suggested, I should be
FINANCE COMMITTEE.
quite satisfied.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I merely tralia): Seeing that this Convention ap-
wished to know the order in which the pointed a committee to deal with the finan-
clauses would come on!
cial problen, I should like to ask the Right
The Hon. E. BARTON: That being so Hon. G. H. Reid whether that committee
I should be content to let the provisions has met; or, if not, when it intends to
as to the executive of the federation come meet, to deal with this important subject?
on immediately after the question of dead- The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
locks has been dealt with. I may mention South Wales) : In answer to that ques-
to hon. gentlemen that, as was stated some tivn, I ask when the Convention will give
days ago, it is proposed to sit to-morrow us tiine to meet?
night, as well as in the daytime, and that
a similar course will be taken on Friday. COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
Motion agreed to.
In Committee (consideration resumed from
Convention adjourned at 5:53 p.m.
14th September, vide page 539):
Clause 55. Appropriation and tax bills (vide
page 481).
Paragraphs 2 and 3 agreed to.
WEDNESDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER, 1897. Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
and Assembly of Tasmania :
That the following new sub-clause follow para-
Petition-Notice of Motion-Finance Committee-Com-
graph 3 :-"The law which appropriates the
supplies for the ordinary annual services of the
government shall deal only with the appropria-
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
tion of such supplies.”
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [10-34]:
PETITION.
In supporting this suggested amendment,
The Hon. E. BARTON presented a peti- I would like to point out that it seems to
tion from the Australasian National League, have been accidentally omitted from the
praying that when considering the clauses 1891 bill, and the importance of it is ren-
of the bill in detail, the Convention would dered obvious when one notices that in
make such amendments as would provide more than half of the constitutions of the
monwealth of Australia Bill.
a.m.
540
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
states of America this clause has been in- It seems to me that those words, written
serted as a constitutional amendment, owing with authority-not only the authority of
to the grave and increasing difficulties aris- thinkers, but also the authority of prac-
ing from the practice of tacking to appro- tical statesmen, who have filled the highest
priation bills measures not appropriate to posts in America -- ought to convince us
such bills. In a few sentences-if I may that we should take measures to guard
refer to a very valuable collection of com- against a danger which might become very
ments on the American constitutions, pub-
serious.
lished by the Johns Hopkins University- Suggested new paragraph agreed to.
I may make my meaning clear. At page Paragraph 4 agreed to.
29 of that article it is pointed that from
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
1867 forward
(Western Australia) [10:37]: I desire to
the practice of legislating on appropriation bills ask the leader of the Convention if the
became more and more common, mainly as a
intention of this sub-clause is that the
matter of convenience. The number of bills in-
senate shall have power to reject or amend
troduced into Congress is so large-sometimes
reaching 8,000 or 10,000—that it is almost im- a proposed law of this kind ?
possible to obtain a hearing for any measure. But The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
the appropriation bills must be passed, and it has
Wales) [10:38]: Not a law providing for
become very common to place on them provisions
the ordinary annual expenses.
enacting necessary laws which otherwise could
not be reached on the calendar. Judge Reagan, The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
of Texas, said in the House of Representatives Expenses other than the ordinary annual
that, between 1862 and 1875, 387 measures of
services?
general legislation had been passed as provisoes
upon appropriation bills. . Ten years ago, the
The Hon. E. BARTON: Théintention of
practice had become so objectionable that Gene- this sub-clause, I take it, is this: The senate
ral Grant, in his message, December 1, 1973,
is not deprived of the power of amend-
advised an amendment of the Constitution which
ing appropriations, except in respect to the
would prevent it, and this recommendation was
recently renewed by President Arthur in his ordinary annualservices of the Government.
iessage of December 5, 1882. The House of In order that it may have that power in
Representatives also recognised the faulty nature
full efficiency, it is intended by this sub-
of the practice and amended its rules so as to
clause to confine the annual appropriation
forbid legislation on appropriation bills except
act to such matters as relate to the ordi-
when it is germane to the subject of the bill and
in the interest of economy.
nary annual services of the government,
President Hayes, in his message in 1879,
,
so that appropriations apart from that may
be dealt with in the ordinary way.
also deals with this matter.
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST:
The practice of tåcking to appropriation bills
ineasures not pertinent to such bills did not
Loan bills, for instance?
prevail until more than forty years after the The Hon. E. BARTON: It may be so.
adoption of the constitution. It has become a
Paragraph 5 agreed to.
common practice. All parties when in power
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
have adopted it. Many abuses and great waste
of public money have in this way crept into Clause 56 (Recommendation of money votes).
appropriation bills. The public opinion of the
The CHAIRMAN : Several amendments
country is against it. The states which have
recently adopted constitutions have generally have been suggested on clause 56 ; but the
provided a remedy for the evil by enacting that question arises whether they are not in-
no law shall contain more than one subject,
consistent with clause 54, which we have
which shall be plainly expressed in its title.
The constitutions of more than half the states
passed. Under clause 54 it will be neces-
contain substantially this provision.
sary that messages should be sent to the
He says:
:
[Mr. TVise.
Commonwealth of
541
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australic Bill.
senate from the governor-general in some vision for a referendum or for a dissolution
cases, because of the addition to the clause of the senate. Therefore I suggest that
which we have made at the suggestion of a division should be accepted as a test vote
Tasmania. It seems to me that we can- upon the general question whether there
not now amend the clause as suggested, and should or should not be a provision against
therefore, unless otherwise desired, I shall deadlocks. Then the Convention can at
not put the suggested amendments. a subsequent stage work out the problem
Clause agreed to.
as to what is the best mode of giving effect
The CHAIRMAN : I understand that it is to their wishes.
the wish of the Committee to now deal
The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member is
with the new clauses which make pro- quite right. I ought to have said dead-
vision for the avoiding of deadlocks. I lock instead of referendum. This para-
really do not know which of the sugges- graph is consistent with almost any scheme
tions that have been made to this end I
suggested
should put to the Committee first.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
The Hon. N. J. BROWN : May I suggest bly of New South Wales :
that, if an amendment has been suggested Iusert new clause to follow clause 56 :--57.
which would bring the definite question (a.) If either house of parliament shall, in two
whether any provision for the meeting of
consecutive sessions of the same parliament, with
an interval of at least six weeks between, pass
deadlocks is, in the opinion of a majority and transmit to the other house for its concur-
of this Committee desirable, it should be rence therein any proposed law which such other
put first. There are some members of the house fails to pass without amendment, within
Convention, amongst whom I am one, who
thirty days after receiving the same, in the
second session, or within such period passes,
desire to oppose in every way any sugges- with any amendment not agreed to by the house
tion in the shape of a referendum other transmitting the proposed law, the provisions
than that, if any provision at all is neces- of the following sections of this part shall
apply.
sary, which has been suggested by the
Parliament of Tasmania.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
The CHAIRMAN : I was about to say that South Wales) [10:45]: I do not intend to
I have come to the conclusion that it would detain the Convention at any great length
perhaps be advisable to put first the new in support of this proposal, because I take
clause suggested by the colony of New it that our time is rather limited, and we
South Wales. Upon the first paragraph desire in as short a space of time as pos-
of the suggested new clause 57 a test vote sible to come to some final détermination
may be taken as to whether there should upon what may probably turn out to be
or should not be a referendum. That para-
the crux of the whole constitution. I have
graph commits us to nothing, because, as always from the moment that I contested
will be seen, it does not bring into opera- a seat in this Convention placed above all
tion any particular scheme.
other questions with regard to the consti-
Dr. QUICK : Do I understand you to tution that which provides some means
say, sir, that a division upon this question for getting an ultimate expression of the
should be regarded as a test vote upon the will of the majority of the people. Al-
referendum, or in regard to making pro- though I have opposed equal representa-
vision against deadlocks ? I think the first tion in the senate, I have always admitted
suggestion would be a rather restricted that I would oppose it until the constitu-
mode of debating the clause. This para- tion provided some safety-valve. I say
graph may be applicable either to a pro- now that if a safety-valve is provided at
542
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.
this stage there will be found no stronger Mr. SYMON : I hope the discussion will
supporter of the bill, though it provides not be limited in the way suggested by my
for equal state representation, than my- hon. and learned friend. It is true that
self. But I have always hesitated to give upon this paragraph you cannot take any
my support to the principle of equal state definite vote as to whether we should have
rights before seeing in cold type in the bill a dissolution of the senate provided for
itself a proposal which would deal effectu- under certain conditions, whether we should
ally with the deadlocks which are bound have that alone, or in conjunction with
to occur when you place power in the a subsequent referendum, or whether we
hands of two bodies elected upon a totally
should have the referendum alone without
distinct basis. I take it that there will be a previous dissolution ; but we might be
no objection to my referring incidentally to
here a month if each of these matters were
the various proposals which have been made the subject of a separate debate. It would
with this object, in order that I may jus-
be better to leave it open to us to express
tify my advocacy of one proposal rather our views freely upon the possible methods
than of another. Therefore, in the course of avoiding deadlocks between the cham-
of my remarks I intend to refer incident- bers, and then the precise method to be
ally to the proposal for a dissolution, and chosen need not be debated again. With
to coippare the efficacy of a provision of great deference to the views of the hon.
that character with the proposal which has and learned member, I think it would be
emanated from the Assembly of New South better if we were to debate the whole
Wales, and with the proposal which has question now as fully and as fairly as we
emanated from the Victorian Parliament. can, dealing as briefly as possible with
Mr. WISE : I wish to take your ruling, each of the methods proposed, before we
sir, as to whether it would not be a more decide whether they shall be taken con-
convenient course-to debate, as you sug- currently or separately.
gested from the chair just now, the ques- The Right Hon. Sir G. TUNNER: I agree
tion whether means should be provided for with the hon. and learned member, Mr.
preventing deadlocks, without discussing Symon, that the wiser course would be to
the various methods which have been sug- have a general discussion upon the whole
gested to that end. I understand that your matter, because there may be some mem-
object in putting the amendment paragraph
bers of the Convention who are now op-
by paragraph was, that a vote should be posed to any means of prerenting dead-
taken on the first paragraplı, which is com- locks, but who, after a full discussion, may
mon to every scheme suggested, which see that some modification of the schemes
would enable the sense of the Committee which are proposed would be acceptable.
to be ascertained as to whether it is neces- I feel that if we are to be limited in this
sary to provide any means for avoiding discussion we shall be somewhat in the
deadlocks. Otherwise, it seems to me, we dark ; but if we have an all-round discus-
shall have great confusion, and, perhaps, sion now it will be for the advantage of all
waste of time. I ask you, therefore, to
rule whether hon. members will be in The CHAIRMAN : The procedure adopted
order in discussing the various means which
in this Convention has been to take some
have been proposed for avoiding deadlocks. clause, or some words in a clause, as a test
Perhaps an expression of opinion from you concerning the largest and most import-
would guide the Committee as to which ant questions in the bill. I do not think
would be the most convenient course. I would be doing right to depart from
of us.
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
543
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that practice, and, therefore, I shall per- as there is a fear arising from the feeling of
mit a general discussion upon this ques- the people, who see that the constitution is
tion of deadlocks and referendum upon this so framed as to take from themselves the
paragraph.
power of expressing their will. A grievance
The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: Itake will be created. We know that if we create
it, therefore, that I will be quite in order a grievance, even an imaginary one, it is
in referring to the various proposals which apt to rankle in the minds of the people.
have been submitted, especially if I refer to It is apt to promote agitation, to promote
them incidentally. The burden of my discontent, and generally to prevent that
speech will not have reference either to happiness which comes from a satisfied
authorities or precedents, but rather to people. There is no doubt that the agita-
contemporaneous history. I think it will tion, which is at the bottom of these recom-
be far better if we come down to argu- mendations, is one that is well grounded;
ments which will commend themselves to that a grievance is being already felt.
the people of this country by reason of their That grievance will be intensified if this
practical experience, and the sentiments Convention refuses, by any reasonable
which they hold. I take it that the feeling course, to recognise that grievance, or to
is a growing one; that there is a consensus attempt to remedy it. I am one of those
of feeling that in the constitution as framed who have been extremly hopeful of the
there is bound to be conflict between the
prospects of federation in this colony.
two houses.
The hon. member, Mr. Wise, expressed
Mr. SYMON: No, we do not admit an opinion here that I am one of those
that!
who are giving way to the prejudices of
The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: I take this colony. I am always hopeful that
it that that opinion is one that is strongly New South Wales will in the voting lead
growing, and we see evidence that there is in favour of federation ; but whilst I have
no doubt about it. It is a contingency that that hope, and being largely actuated by
a wise man would provide for so as to frame the desire to see that end accomplished I
a constitution which will bend and not
have always had this one fear that fede-
break. It would be a terrible state of ration could be destroyed, and might be
affairs in future if we provided a constitu- destroyed only by the Convention itself,
tion so rigid, that unconstitutional means and not by the people. As long as federa-
would have to be adopted by the people tion proceeds on the lines of trusting the
to give expression to their wishes. Surely people it is safe with the people, but the
wise men entrusted with the task of fram- moment that federation is based on mis-
ing a constitution, to endure for all time
trust of the people then federation is in
for these great Australian colonies, would danger. I have never so distrusted this
provide some' constitutional means by Convention as to fear that it would give
which, in the face of inevitable conflict the deathblow to the aspirations of the
which is all the more inevitable here than people we represent. I feel quite satisfied
elsewhere, on account of the amount of that if we make a fair, adequate, reason-
freedom which our people possess-legisla- able provision that will be sufficient.
. I
tive deadlocks may be ended, and the emphasise the words "reasonable provi-
people themselves may give expression to sion," because I want nothing that would
their opinions. I have heard an opinion ex- tend to excite the fear of any reason-
pressed that there is not so much fear with able men; but if reasonable provision is
regard to the actual occurrence of deadlocks made, allowing the will of the people to
544
[15 SEPT., 1897.
Commonwealth of
Australia Bill.
A
effectually find expression, and to exercise one of those houses would have been cap-
its voice and power, the constitution will be tured by the wave of feeling which passed
one that will be acceptable to the people all over Australia, and that it would not
of this colony. If no provision of that have been the house of representatives.
character is made, then the people of It would have been the senate. With
this colony will express themselves as election by the whole colony as a constitu-
being content to wait until some reason- ency, and with one man one vote, that
able provision is made for such a thing in election is likely to go in one way. Waves
the constitution. I fear that the opposi- of popular excitement will have fuller force,
tion to this proposal largely comes from a and will be given fuller effect to in the
conservative feeling. I use that expres-
senate. The localism which will come into
sion knowing the full meaning of the term, play in the election of members of the house
with no desire to reflect on the different of representatives will do much to break
views held by a large proportion of mem- down the unanimity of the expression of
bers of this Convention; but I fear there popular opinion, but it willnot have full play
will be a conservative opposition to any in the election of members of the senate.
proposal for providing against deadlocks. Therefore, I feel that those who may have
I should like to point out to those who some lingering ideas that it is necessary to
may have any conservative views, that hedge in the senate with restrictions, and
we are always told that the senate is the that it will be a conservative institution,
body whose powers are being curtailed. may disabuse their minds. The qualifica-
We are always being told that these con- tion of one man one vote, with single con-;'
cessions and claims are all attacks upon stituencies, will have the effect of making
the senate. I do not regard 'them as the senate the radical house of the two.
attacks upon the senate; but I regard the I do not base my desire to have the referen-
senate to be elected under this constitu- dum, or other provisions for a deadlock, on
tion, as being possibly and probably the any plea or pretext of governing one house
more democratic of the two houses. I do more than another. I contend that the
not regard the senate as the bulwark of house of representatives is just as likely as
the constitution against the encroachments the senate at times to attempt to thwart the
of democracy, and the advance of the tide popular will—it is just as likely to be in
of liberalism. I regard it as more than the wrong as the other, and the people
possible that the democratic house of the will take up the side of the house which
federation will be the senate, for this rea- happens to be voicing their opinions. I do
son : that, if there is any wave of popular not care which house it may be which is
feeling, any sentiment arising from a con- standing against the tide or current of
flict which largely moves the masses of the public opinion, that house should not have
people, in which house will the wave exercise the power ultimately to mould the desti-
the greatest influence? Surely, in a house nies of the commonwealth. I am aware
elected by the people of the whole colony, that a large number of people favour a
rather than in the house elected by various dissolution as a remedy. I am one of those
constituencies where local feelings, require who believe that the power to dissolve both
ments and desires, and local likes and dis-
be
very effectual as a means of
likes will have full sway. I undertake to
I undertake to preventing deadlocks, not of ending them ;
say that if during the maritime strike of that this dissolution, threateningly held
1890 we had this constitution in force, and over one house or the other, may have the
the two houses were elected by the people, effect of preventing a deadlock, of prevent-
houses may
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
545
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australicu Bill.
ing the house, or either of them, from going means of ending them, I attach no im-
to absolute extremes. I contend that, when portance whatever to it. The proposal of
a deadlock occurs, especially when it occurs the Victorian legislature is practically a
in a conflict between state rights and popu- referendum, in which again the states are
lar rights, a dissolution---that is, sending recognised, and the bodies whose represen-
both houses to the country, or to the con- tatives have entered into conflict, an appeal
stituencies--will absolutely fail to end the is made by referendum, not to the great
deadlock. It will more than absolutely mass of the people of the commonwealth,
fail to end the deadlock; it will tend to but to the people representing the states
perpetuate the deadlock, to create evils again.
for years to come, because the interests of Mr. HIGGINS : It is not a referendum
state are in conflict with the interests of at all!
the people. Will not the states who have
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS:
return their representatives to the senate
Exactly. We will have no ending of the
return their representatives again exactly
deadlock by a referendum of that character.
as before? Is it likely that the appeal to
We may have a vast majority of the
the constituencies as states will result in a
people of the commonwealth voting for
verdict being given against their represen-
the proposed law, and yet that majority
tatives who have upbeld the rights of the
must give way to a minority who happen
states? Is it likely that an appeal by
to represent a majority in the various
the members of the house of representa-
states, that is a majority in a majority of
tives to the people, whose rights they have
the states. And we may see, as a result
been upholding, will not result in the
of the referendum, that a majority of the
election of those who have upheld their
people will have to put up with their ver-
rights? It is simply an appeal to constitu-
dict being set aside by a vote of a minority
encies which have prejudged the case, and
of the people. Better to have no referen-
which are bound to return representatives
dum at all than that, because that will
as a reward for having steadfastly stood
only intensify the feeling in the minds of
by the interests supposed to be committed
the people that the constitution is one
to their charge. Therefore, the result of
which inflicts upon them a wrong, and
an appeal in a case of that kind will be
that they have to endure a grievance. If
that, instead of the deadlock being ended,
the people are asking for bread do not
we will have the deadlock continued, each
offer them a stone. Better to make no
side fortified by what it will take to be a
provision rather than to make inadequate
ratification of its conduct, a ratification of
its vote, each side encouraged to persist in
provision. Better to let time, with the
growth of popular opinion, cause the ex-
the attitude which has led up to the dead-
perience which will institute the remedy
lock, and the commonwealth will have to
rather than to offer an inadequate remedy
endure for years to come, until there is
at the present moment. The proposal
another dissolution, or until there is a
made by the New South Wales legisla-
change of popular opinion, and state
ture is broadly one in which there are safe-
opinion-we will have to endure the con-
guards.
tinuance of that evil which a dissolution
An HON. MEMBER : The South Austra-
is proposed to end. As a means of influ-
encing the legislative bodies to prevent
lian proposal !
deadlocks from occurring, a dissolution The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I
may be a very valuable thing; but as a do not want to go through all of then.
546
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
one!
An HON. MEMBER: It is the alternative conflicts occur, and in many cases men,
not measures, are considered. In our local
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: The contests, and I dare say the delegates from
Tasmanian proposal is one which com-
all the colonies will concur in what I say
mends itself very much to my mind. I in this respect, men are returned, not so
was astonished to find a proposal of that much on account of the measures they
liberal character coming from that colony, support, as on account of their personal
not that I feel that no liberal proposal will popularity. We bave men, belonging to
come from that colony, but it is one in the same party, who on great questions
which the evidence is given of a desire on hold divergent views. Yet we cannot say
the part of that colony to have some pro- that the views held by a majority of their
vision in the constitution which will end constituents are divergent. With the re-
these deadlocks, and not a provision which, ferendum, we have the possibility of a
necessarily, would favour that colony. I clear-cut issue being submitted to the
think it will be universally admitted that the people, not with an election going on,
the proposal of the Tasmanian Parliament not with any of that agitation whicb, per-
cannot, by any means, be characterised as haps, at a general election, causes men's
one likely to favour Tasmania more than reasons to be overclouded; but after full
any other colony ; it is one which is more discussion has taken place in the legisla-
likely to sacrifice the interest of the state ture, after a discussion, not of a sudden or
of Tasmania than otherwise. Therefore, short nature, but extending over a pro-
it should be a matter for congratulation tracted period. When the press and the
that a proposal of that kind has emanated statesmen of the colonies have had full
from that colony. The New South Wales opportunity to shed light on the question
proposal is one which is safeguarded by to the people, when the fairest and fullest
many provisions showing the reasonable discussion and utmost deliberation have
character of it. First of all a proposed law taken place, then the people themselves
must be passed or dealt with in two sessions will have the opportunity to express their
of the same parliament, that is two ses- opinion on that one question without the
sions not merely with an interval of a day distracting influences of party politics or
between them, not merely sessions rushed of personalities. Experience in other
forward by a government in order to carry countries where the system is in operation
out its purpose, but two sessions with a -in fact the experience which comes to
reasonable interval between them; and us in our own colony where we have had
opportunities are provided for due deliber- some operation of this system in various
ation and a conference between the two matters-goes to show that the quiet rea-
houses until at last the matter is remitted soning and thought of the people finds ex-
to the electors of the commonwealth, and pression on an appeal by means of the re-
if a verdict is given against the proposed ferendum.
ferendum. I have no fear in my own
law, it cannot be reconsidered for a period mind that the referendum will ever be
Having regard to the used as an engine for violent or revolu-
broad question of the referendum, I hold tionary measures. I believe the voice of a
that the people are more to be trusted by nation is largely framed by the fiʻresides
an appeal of this character than they are of the homes of the people, and not by
by an appeal which takes the form of a the clamour of those whom we may call
general election.
At a general election noisy agitators. It is not always noise
the issues will always be clouded. Party and sound that expresses the will of
of three years.
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
517
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bull.
the people. Experience shows that in and if that solution is arrived at there will
Switzerland the referendum has been be found no heartier and more enthusiastic
always rather against the agitation wbich advocate of the bill than myself; and on
was supposed to be the popular political every occasion, both in the Parliament of
agitation. It has always been the reason- New South Wales and before the people,
able, calm judgment of the people, who I shall be found advocating the adoption
in their own methodical manner, in their of the bill as it leaves the Convention.
own homes, and by discussion amongst Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales)
their neighbours, have formed their [11.13] : I feel that we have reached a
opinions and expressed them calmly and very important stage of our proceedings,
reasonably. A referendum of this charac- although I, personally, would not have
ter is proposed by the legislature of New been one to have brought up this question
South Wales. It will allow the expres- of deadlocks in any shape whatever. It
sion of the will of the majority of the seems to me, however, that the advantage
people only after reasonable efforts have of this preliminary debate is to thoroughly
been made to arrive at a conclusion be- study the conditions surrounding the bill
tween the legislative bodies, without any as we have it at the present stage, and the
undue haste or exciting influence, and we principles which must underlie any pro-
shall have nothing to fear from its results. posal of deadlocks whatever. I hold that
I say, in conclusion, that if we cannot the bill as constructed has, to a certain
trust the people as the final arbiters of the extent, gone as far as any bill possibly can
destiny of the commonwealth, then the go to obviate the possibility of deadlocks.
time is nor ripe for federation. It is use- On the other hand, I am not so foolish as
less for us to attempt to federate a people to say that deadlocks are not possible-
whom we are not prepared to trust with the that differences between two houses will
ultimate shaping of their own destinies, and not occur, and will not go to an extreme
it would be better for us to wait until that point of tension. At the same time, we
time comes than attempt to temper federa-
must recollect that all responsible govern-
tion by any mistrust of the people. As ment, all constitutional government as
Gladstone once said, all true reforms understood by British people, is based
spring from the people. The people are upon the same principle and the same feel-
generally truer exponents of the marchings which have actuated the members
and trend of civilisation than are politi- of this Convention-mutual conciliation,
cians. Surely in cases of conflict, when mutual compromise and patriotism on the
the people have to endure the wrong of part of all; and we must be very careful
unwise and bad laws, the people may be when we have got a constitution framed,
trusted to have a voice in the shaping of which has a number of checks, which deals
those laws when their representatives fail fairly with all the rights and privileges of
to agree. I hope the result of our de- states and populations—we must be very
liberations will ingraft upon the constitu- careful when we have got a nicely adjusted
tion some proposal which will satisfy the and well-balanced constitution that we do
people that there is safety in it—that nothing that is not absolutely necessary
there is no attempt in any way to form a to introduce into it those mechanical
constitution so rigid that it must break arrangements which may be used, not when
against the will of the people. I am satis- the necessity arises, but to create that
fied the reasonable voice of the Convention very necessity. There is such a thing as
will result in some satisfactory solution, manufacturing a deadlock; and we must
1
548 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
)
be careful, too, that we do not destroy legislation, the only check which the people
those checks upon government — those of the country have upon the tyranny of
checks which every people, if it is wise, the house of representatives, is the check
will have upon any popular legislature, of another chamber; and we must be very
which may under a certain set of circum- careful that, while allowing for those ex-
stances be as tyrannical as any Czar of treme cases, we do not do anything to
Russia. We must recollect, as I said, that weaken that great necessary check on our
we are dealing with a constitution based government.
essentially on the British Constitution, and The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Who is to say
the British Constitution, as we have it whether it is or is not tyranny in a num-
now,
has practically in its essential work-
ber of instances ?
ing, only one veto. That is to say, the
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : The ministry
Crown has practically given up its power of the day!
of veto, and the only checks you have upon
Mr. MCMILLAN : We hare in this
unwise legislation, upon the sudden passion
constitution of ours I think wisely—but
of any particular house, is the check of an-
in contradistinction from that of the United
other house under a system of bi-cameral
States of America—increased the term of
government.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : And the prin-
the house of representatives to three years.
ciple is that they must give way at a cer-
Hon. members are aware that in the
tain point!
United States of America the term is only
Mr. MCMILLAN: I am coming to that.
two years; they are practically reduced to
When I had the honor of attending the
two sessions extending over about fifteen
months. Now you might have such a state
Convention of 1891, and also when I was
of affairs as that a house at the end of two
speaking in Adelaide, I referred very inci-
years—we have had a case of that kind in
dentally to the character of the senate as
our colony—mightso change from a variety
a second revising chamber, and I found
of circumstances, whether corrupt or not I
that met with very little consideration at
will not say—that the result might be
the hands of some hon. gentlemen; but I
that, having one year yet to run, it might
was glad to see that my hon. friend, Mr.
absolutely misrepresent the public opinion
Deakin, in his speech, laid great stress upon
of the country. We must be very careful
that view of the senate as a second revising that, even if the two houses come to a
chamber. In the United States of America
deadlock you have some provision—at any
every law has to run the gauntlet of three rate that is one of the first principles I
forces: It has to go through the House of want to see introduced for a dissolution
Representatives, it has to go through the of the lower house before anything is done
senate, and it has finally to run the gaunt- to deal with such a state of affairs.
let of the President. I am quite aware The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : And the upper
that there is a machinery there to prevent house, too !
any absolute deadlock between the Presi-
Mr. MCMILLAN: I will come to that
dent and the houses of parliament, but there afterwards. In the proposal of the New
is nothing to prevent a deadlock between
South Wales legislature we have this :
the two houses of parliament. Therefore, that you can have a bill passed through
as we have no supreme, almighty presi- one session of Parliament, the same bill
dent, such as they have in America, but the may be passed through another session,
representative of the constitutional sove- and before there is a dissolution it has to
reign, the only check we have on hasty go to the referendum.
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
549
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It does not street, and I say that in all the cases we
necessarily go to the referendum at all! have beforeus dealing with the referendum
Mr. MCMILLAN:Not if thetwo houses as a principle--the principle underlying it
ultimately agree. It is the last resort. is this : not that the people should come
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is not auto- in to arbitrate between the two houses,
.matic !
which are supposed to agree between them-
Mr. MCMILLAN: I understand that selves, and to be able to compromise, but
you come to your final resort before the that the people are to have the final veto,
ordinary means of dissolution.
if so desired, in all legislation, whether
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : You may come agreed to by the two houses or not. I want
to it!
us to be perfectly certain of what we are
Mr. McMILLAN : The hon. member doing in this matter. I hold that it is a
says that he would rather trust the people reasonable attitude for those who think
with the referendum than have an ordinary that this bill might go to the country with-
dissolution. Now, we hear a great deal out any solution of this deadlock difficulty,
about this trusting of the people. I trust to stand in the position of saying, "We
the people as well as does the most ex- cannot conceive, at the present moment,
treme democrat here or elsewhere ; but I of anything which would contravene the
find that the most difficult thing in the principles of constitutional government as
world is to get at the opinion of the people. we understand them, and we leave it to
We know that even in the election for this those who desire some rigid mode of deal-
Convention it was very difficult, and had ing with this question to solve the diffi-
it not been for certain circumstances to culty for us." As far as I am personally
which I shall not refer, we should probably concerned, I am quite willing to give my
not have had one half the number of votes adhesion to anything that would be an
recorded which were recorded in this ultimate safety-valve, so long as it can-
colony. I would much rather trust to the not be used as a scourge by one house
lapse of time, to the friction of public against the other; but there are certain
opinion, "and the introduction of new life- principles which must be adhered to in
blood into the chamber after a dissolution, any scheme which is proposed. Now, what
for arriving at some reasonable compromise are the general conditions surrounding
in the matter in dispute, than resort to this deadlocks? In the first place, there is
hard-and-fast principle of the referendum, some question on which there has been a
sending to the people, perhaps, a com- large amount of debate, and perhaps of
plex piece of legislation which not one conference, in which there is some under-
person in a thousand understands. We lying principle upon which one house
must recollect this—and it cannot be too thinks it cannot compromise any more, and
clearly understood--that with the exception you have this question to be decided ulti-
of some remote state in the United States mately by public opinion. Now, if you
of America, which the erudition and re- want the question decided by public opinion,
search of the hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, if it be such a difficult question that level-
has discovered, this principle of referendum headed men in the two houses cannot come
has not been the means of arbitration be- to some compromise upon it, it is essen-
tween the two houses of parliament. I am tially such a knotty question that it wil}
referring to the ordinary individual, who require time to elucidate and unravel it.
has not ransacked all history on the ques- In dealing with questions between the
. tion; I am speaking of the man in the senate and the house of representatives,
550
Australici Bill.
Cominoniealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
extent upon
we are too much inclined to imagine that or are you going to reduce it to a popular
we have before us the House of Lords, or vote? If you reduce it to a block popular
the Legislative Council of one of these vote, what do you do in effect? It may be
colonies. I say that there is no analogy justifiable under the circumstances. You
between the two cases. If you were going may say that you must have some safety-
to deal with the British Constitution, and valve in this constitution, but that safety-
if you were going to sustain the House of valve is only used by destroying the prin-
Lords, you would not give it any veto at ciples of federation. You simply say, "This
all; it represents only a class. We must federation is a beautiful scheme; but it is
have all the elements of delay. There- essentially artificial, and being so artificial
fore, it does seem to me that, as a matter there is a possibility of danger arising in
of delay in getting at public opinion, this direction; and if we are going to leave
and before going to any extreme step out- a safety-valve by which to escape from this
side the ordinary constitutional methods danger sooner than have a revolution-
in this system of dealing with deadlocks, because that is the way I look at it; I
we should first have it assured, before it look at it that there is a certain stage at
is put into operation, that the lower house which we may arrive, under some possible
shall be dissolved. It is said, “Is this not circumstances, in which we must either,
a clumsy way of dealing with the matter? Is according to these gentlemen, appeal to
it not hard to dissolve a house of assembly the popular vote, or we must have a disso-
which is doing good work simply because lution of the federal union--if you come
it is at issue with the upper
chamber
upon
to that point, then it depends to a great
one particular point?" I revert back to
the grouping of these entities
my original principle, that you must take and their particular characteristics. You
it for granted that legislation will proceed might have this position: that after a while
upon ordinary lines--that the members of
there might be more population in one
both houses will do their duty, and that state than in all of the rest put together-
this device is only to meet extreme cases, that is a possibility—and the popular vote
and, as a rule, it will be some innovation might be simply the vote of one colony:
in regard to which it will be better either That is a thing you have most carefully to
to hold the matter over for a general dis- consider.
solution, even though you put the country Mr. HIGGINS: Do you ever find the
to a trifling expense, than to bring into population of one colony all of one way of
operation the drastic elements connected thinking?
with a deadlock cure. Now, I do not think I Mr. McMILLAN: Then you must re-
hare any more to say on the principle of collect this, that the possibility of danger,
the matter the only matter which it will which is foreseen by many, is the danger
be very difficult to decide in dealing with of a conflict essentially on a matter of what
the question from a federal point of view is called state right. You must be very
—and I have only dealt with it up to the careful in dealing with that danger, be-
present from the point of view of a second cause if you manufacture a system of
chamber, as a check upon legislation. But deadlock, which will absolutely kill the
it will be a difficult question to decide principle of federation, the very putting
from a federal point of view, because the into force of that deadlock might lead to
question is, how are you going to test revolution. Therefore all I want to guard
public opinion? Are you going to test it against, all I want to impress upon this
by the opinions of the states as states, Convention and it comes from one who
1
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
551
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
does not pretend to a very deep philosophi- and that is going a long way from my
cal study of the question—all I want to principles--a dissolution of the senate in
impress upon those who have sufficient case of a deadlock, followed ultimately, if
originality to propose a scheme, which I the result left you exactly where you were,
have not, is that it must be so framed as by a national referendum..
to include delay, so framed that it will not Dr. QUICK : I am very glad indeed
abandon the checks on government which that I have elicited from the hon. member
we are creating in the main part of this that very important expression of opinion.
bill, so framed that it will be able, when I have always attached great weight to the
you get the vote, to get at the real opinion views of the hon. gentleman, and I think
of the country, and in every way sur- we were entitled to an explicit statement
rounded by prudent and wise restrictions, of his opinion, and not merely a criticism
so that it will be felt by the states as en- of the opinions of others. With reference
tities that you are only doing this as a last to myself, I have, unfortunately, been ac-
resort, and as one of the necessities in-
cused of being an ardent federationist, and,
herent in an artificial federation.
indeed, a federationist at almost any price.
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [11.35]: The Well, I beg to deny that accusation. There
observations of the hon. inember who has
are three great conditions upon which I
just sat down are of a most valuable have been for some time past advocating
character, and are no doubt entitled to
federation, and upon which I have been
the greatest weight. He himself admits prepared to advocate it here and support
the great necessity for some provision for it in the country. The first condition is
settling deadlocks, because he suggests that the parliament of this federation
that some safety-valve ought to be pro- should be elected upon a popular basis,
vided in this constitution, and then, in- and I should not be willing to accept any
stead of endeavouring to solve the ques- federal legislature which was not created
tion, he went on to raise difficulties, and upon the vote of the people. The second
sat down without proposing any solution condition is that the senate of this federal
at all. It reminds one of the hon. gentle- parliament should not have the power of
man's treatment of the financial difficulty, amending money bills, and the third is
which he pronounced as an insoluble pro- that there should be provision in this con-
blem. Now he pronounces this question stitution for the settlement of disputes and
of deadlocks almost an inscluble problem. deadlocks between the two houses. I draw
Mr. McMILLAN: Ob, no, I do not- attention to this fact : that this constitu-
that is not fair!
tion which we have now created, or almost
Dr. QUICK: I think the Convention created, has resulted in the formulation of
is entitled, from a gentleman of his ability an upper house or senate, or second cham-
and experience, and a gentleman who ber, which will be based upon the popular
assumes to lead the Convention, to more support, which will be founded upon a fran-
than that.
chise equal to the franchise of the so-called
Mr. McMILLAN : I would remind my popular chamber.
hon, friend that I did not give any con-
The Hon. S. FRASER : More than equal !
crete view of my opinions; but I am in- Dr. QUICK : It cannot be more than
clinud to accept a double proposal that has equal, because the senate is now to be
been made—first, the proposal of my hon. elected on the same basis as the house of
and learned friend, Mr. Wise, by which representatives.
you will get a dissolution of the senate- The Hon. S. FRASER : No!
552
Australia Bill..
Commonwealth of
[15 Sept., 1897.]
Dr. QUICK : Practically the same. I a novel experiment
that we are now
say that by so doing we have done quite proposing what does not exist in any pre-
right. I know of no method by which vious constitution. Should that prevent
we ought to create a senate or an upper
us from resorting to any machinery, or to
house, except by providing that it shall be the adoption of any provision to meet the
duly elected by the people. For my part great emergencies of the constitution which
I do not believe in a nominee house, and we are creating? Surely we are here as
I do not believe in an upper house elected reasonable constitution-builders, and we
on a partial suffrage. But, unfortunately, ought not to be appalled by the fact that
the necessity for yielding to that important no previous constitution contains an exact
principle inevitably brings into existence equivalent, although I am not at all sure
two houses which are practically co-ordinate, that such a provision does not exist, be-
with the exception of equal control over cause I believe that something of the kind
money bills, and that leads to this result, does exist in the Constitution of South
that having called into existence two strong Australia, in a modified form.
houses, and especially a senate the like of An HON. MEMBER : Dissolution ?
wbich will not be found in any constitu- Dr. QUICK : A modified dissolution.
tion that is in existence, or has ever been I am not discussing the details of the vari-
in existence in the world, we ought to make ous methods, but some method—some prin-
provision for great, important, probably ciple. Therefore, I say that we ought to
historical, occasions when those co-ordinate approach this question unembarrassed by
houses may be brought into serious con- the reflection or the suggestion that we
flict. I do not suggest that such a con- are now asking to introduce novel expedi-
flict would arise on trivial occasions. No ents and new experiments, because I say
doubt on matters. of minor importance that this constitution is without parallel
those two co-ordinate or equal houses in the history of federal government-at
would be able, and ought to be able, to any rate, without parallel in the constitu-
settle their differences without resort to tion of a senate. We are creating, as I
any novel machinery in the constitution ; said before, a popular senate-a senate
but, still, we must contemplate the possi- which will, probably, be stronger than the
bility on great occasions of grave and im- Senate of the United States-stronger not,
portant disputes arising between the two perhaps, in its actual powers, or in its
houses. Now, in an ordinary constitution, actual functions, but stronger in its cre-
where we bave an upper house not elected ation, stronger in its origin, and in its
by the people, or not elected on the same title to the exercise of power—and, con-
basis as the lower house, that second cham- sequently, it might feel even more disposed
ber would be disposed to yield to the pres- to resist the house of representatives on a
sure of the lower chamber elected upon a great occasion than would the Senate of
popular basis; but here, where we are the United States, which is nominated by
creating a senate which will feel the sap of the legislature. Any body, any legislative
popular election in its veins, that serate chamber elected by the people will neces-
will probably feel stronger than a senate sarily feel stronger than a body or a senate
or upper chamber which is elected only on which is not elected by the people, and that
a partial franchise, and, consequently, we fully justifies resort, in this constitution,
ought to make provision for the adjust to some special provision. Consequently,
ment of disputes in great emergencies. It I strongly support the view put forward
may be said that this is a novel expedient by the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers,
[Dr. Quick.
Commonwealth of
553
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that some provision of a reasonable cha- the Legislative Assembly of Tasmania saw,
racter ought to be made in this consti- and a very careful perusal of the debates
tution for those great occasions which we has driven me to the conclusion that the
are considering; and in this I confess Legislative Assembly of Tasmania felt
that I am not actuated by my own views absolutely convinced, that some provision
alone. Probably, if I had a strong view would have to be made in this constitution
in this direction, unsupported by the pub- for the settlement of deadlocks, and they
lic outside, and unsupported by the various bave subunitted a proposal which they
Australian legislatures, I would be dis- thought would be accompanied or sur-
posed to waive that view; but whatever rounded by the least difficulties or dangers.
view I have had throughout this federal I am not trying to minimise the sugges-
contest, or throughout this federal move- tion, but am mentioning it as evidence of
ment, it has been fortified and strength- the overwhelming development of public
ened ten fold by the expressions of public opinion in farour of some such provision
opinion which have taken place in four of being made in this constitution.
the Australian colonies since the adjourn- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
ment of the Convention. Any suggestion Where is the overwhelming development ?
that was made at the Adelaide Convention Dr. QUICK: I must say that I have
in favour of the settlement of deadlocks been strongly influenced by the opinion
has been fortified, I say, by the Australian expressed, especially in the legislatures of
legislatures, and we cannot ignore the New South Wales, South Australia, and
almost unanimous concurrence of those Victoria.
legislatures. We do not have to rely on The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Not Vic-
the opinion of the parliament of New toria !
South Wales, or of Victoria, or even of Dr. QUICK : Most decidedly, Victoria.
South Australia, because the Legislative The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The Legis-
Assembly of Tasmania has gone to the lative Council of Victoria were against it!
extent of admitting that some provision Dr. QUICK : The legislature of Vic-
ought to be made in this constitution for
toria, representing the people of Victoria,
the settlement of deadlocks,
has submitted two important suggestions.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: No!
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Not the
Dr. QUICK : I say emphatically, yes.
Legislative Council !
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Only if amend- Dr. QUICK: No, the Legislative As.
ment is needed !
sembly. Of course I would not expect any
Dr. QUICK: I need scarcely draw atten-
suggestion of the kind to come from the
tion to the amendment that appears on this Legislative Council of Victoria, because it
paper, suggested by the legislature of Tas-
has always resisted any settlement of dead-
mania—a very important suggestion. I locks. But I do not wish to be drawn into
am not minimising it, but am mentioning a discussion with my hon. friend.
it as evidence that the Legislative Assem- The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL : But the
bly of Tasmania thought that some such hon. gentleman said the legislature of
provision ought to be made.
Victoria!
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH : That if there Dr. QUICK: I think that I have said
is to be such a provision, then this should enough to suggest to the Convention that
be the one!
something ought to be done. I do not ad-
Dr. QUICK: I do not regard that "if" vocate it merely on theoretical grounds. I
as very important. It is quite plain that will be willing to waive any opinion that
2 Q
554
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
I have formed on the subject on theoreti- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Vote for
cal grounds, because in helping to build all of them !
this constitution we have to deal with real Dr. QUICK : And I will also be willing
political forces outside this Convention. to vote for a double dissolution, as sug-
Mr. SOLOMON: Why should the hon.
gested by those two legislatures.
member try to manufacture any public
Mr. SYMON : Will the hon. gentleman
opinion outside
accept a double dissolution as final ?
Dr. QUICK : I am willing to accept &
Dr. QUICK: I have done nothing of
double dissolution as final, if that is all I
the kind. At the Adelaide Convention I
did not say a single word about deadlocks,
can get; but, undoubtedly, I shall vote
for the referendum in the various forms in
because, whilst willing to vote for any rea-
which it has been recommended by the
sonable provision that could be brought
forward, I was waiting for the develop- legislatures of New South Wales, Victoria,
and South Australia ; and, if I cannot get
ment of public opinion. I did not do any-
the referendum, I shall be willing to accept
thing to create public opinion; but I am
a double dissolution.
bound to confess that a strong body of
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania)
public opinion has been created in these
colonies, especially in Victoria and New
[11:50]: Having done some violence to
South Wales, which leads me to despair of
my opinions with regard to one important
matter in connection with the powers of the
being able to carry this constitution unless
senate, the power to amend money bills, I
it contains some machinery of a reasonable
character which will enable us to settle
am one of those who are not disposed to
still further whittle down the powers of a
deadlocks. For my part, I am not wedded
body which may be viewed as a most neces-
to any particular scheme. I am willing to
sary part of the constitution. Had the
accept any reasonable proposal that will
enable an adjustment of difficulties and
power to amend money bills been given to
the senate as originally proposed, I think
disputes between the two houses to be
it is extremely probable that I should be
made.
found voting with those who think it neces-
Mr. MCMILLAN : It was very kind of the
sary that some measure should be adopted
hon, member to ask me for a scheme !
to prevent disagreement between the two
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
houses. But the power to amend money
hon. member, Mr. McMillan, might retort,
bills having been taken from the senate, it
and ask the hon. member, Dr. Quick, for
appears to me that there can be no reason-
his scheme !
able cause assigned for still further inter-
Dr. QUICK : Well, I will tell the hon.
fering with that body as proposed.
member, I have been very much impressed
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
by the scheme put forward by the hon.
senate will have power to reject a money
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, and I
bill!
have been willing to accept that.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: Yes ; and
Mr. MCMILLAN : Well, then, I will not
that suggests to me a point to which I will
ask the hon. member to state his !
refer presently. The hon. member, Mr.
Dr. QUICK : I will vote for the scheme Carruthers, surprised me very much by re-
proposed by the hon. and learned member, ferring to the two bodies which we are
Mr. Isaacs, and also that suggested by creating as resting upon a totally different
the Legislative Assembly of New South basis. I think those were the words he
Wales.
used. Now, surely, it is recognised upon all
[Dr. Quick.
Commonwealth of
555
[15 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
way?
hands that it has neveryet been proposed in sion, that the senate which we are about
any constitution, in any part of the world, to create will be similar to any of the legis-
that there should be two houses resting lative councils now in existence in these
more definitely and decidedly upon the colonies, has been not only not denied by
same basis.
those who know better, but has been
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. member will fostered and promoted by public speakers
have eight voles in the senate as against and by writers in the public press. The
our one!
people who have not the time to investi-
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: I think the gate these matters so fully as others who
hon. member had better not raise that have studied these constitutional questions,
question again. He might rest satisfied have been absolutely misled and misin-
with his defeat upon the point, and accept formed, and, if I may use the word with-
the fact that there is at all events a pre- out offence, to some extent gulled into the
ponderance of opinion in the Convention belief that the senate will be, like some
in favour of what is absolutely right and hostile foreign body, engaged from day to
fair in the matter. I will just say, how- day in plotting against the liberties and
ever, that supposing under any circum- the rights of the people. But what is
stances which may be imagined five men,
there more absurd than to suppose that a
two large men and three small men, found senate such as we are about to create,
themselves upon an island, and they wanted elected by the free votes of the people of
to come to an agreement to settle every-
the whole of the Australian colonies, would
thing as to which there might be a differ- be composed of men who would act in that
ence of opinion between them by argument
and reason, the three small men would be The Hon. S. FRASER.: They would not
justified in desiring that it should be laid dare to act in that way!
down as a preliminary principle that they The Hon. N. J. BROWN: It would
should at all events be allowed to live, the seem as though a few hon. members of the
two big men being powerful enough to Convention, and many people outside, ex-
pitch the three small men, and three or pect that the senate will be composed of
four other small men into the sea if they madmen, or lunatics, or tyrants, instead of
choose to do so. That is my reply to the being composed, as we may fairly expect
hon. member's interjection. I wish now it to be, of reasonable men. This being so,
to refer to a statement made by the hon. seeing that the demand for some provision
member, Mr. Carruthers, as to the feeling against deadlocks is based so largely upon
which has prompted this demand for a misunderstanding and delusion as to the
provision against deadlocks resting upon the position which the senate will probably
experience of the people of this colony, and take up, and seeing that it is based upon
he referred specially to the people of this a misunderstanding of the constitutional
colony. He alluded, of course, to the dif- . position of the two houses of legislature, I
ferences which have occurred from time hope that instead of fostering and encour-
to time between the Legislative Council of aging the feeling that a provision of this
New South Wales, and the more repre- kind is necessary, steps will be taken to
sentative house of assembly. Similar dis- remove it, so that the bill will recommend
putes, as we know, have occurred in all the itself to the people of the colonies gener-
colonies from time to time; but I have ally without any such provision. The
wondered from the very commencement hon, member, Mr. Carruthers, pointed out
of these discussions that the popular delu-
that the senate would in its nature be so
556
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
15 SEPT., 1897.]
democratic that he believes that if at the be suggested if the Convention decided
time of the unfortunate maritime strike it that any remedy was necessary for dead-
had been necessary or desirable to dissolve locks.
it, the great wave of violent feeling which Dr. QUICK : I have read the debates in
then made itself felt all over Australia, Hansard !
would have found expression in the return The Hon. N. J. BROWN : I think I
of men favouring the views of the more speak with more authority than does the
violent amongst us. Seeing then that ac- hon. member on that point, because I had
cording to the hon. member's own admis- several conversations with Mr. Inglis Clark
sion the senate will be so 'amenable to on the subject. He has more than once
public opinion, surely we might rest con- assured me, on the grounds that I have
tent with the provision that makes it neces- endeavoured to lay before the Convention
sary for half of the members of the senate and I admit that he would have stated
to go before the country every three years, , them more clearly, and with more force,
becausein that way public opinion uponany than I can—that he does not think any
important matter will make itself felt in the remedy against deadlocks is required. But
senate. I also deprecate very much the idea if such a remedy is decided to be neces-
which is favoured in some quarters that, sary, if a majority of the Convention
supposing it is necessary to appeal to the thinks that the suggestion should be sub-
people on any question in dispute between mitted, for my part I will have very much
the two houses, a time when the people are pleasure in supporting it. I was very
inflamed by passion and prejudice should glad, indeed, to find that all that is desired
be the time at which that appeal should is to have the electors of the various states
be made. If anything of the kind is de- consulted on matters of dispute. I am
cided by a majority of the Convention to very glad to find that the hon. member,
be necessary I hope that ample provision Mr. Carruthers, has expressed approval of
will be made for time to intervene, so that that suggestion. If a majority of the Con-
it will not be the hastily formed and un- vention decide, and I hope they will not
reliable public opinion, so called, which decide, that anything of the kind is neces-
will find expression, but the matured judg- sary, I shall be compelled to support the
ment and common-sense of the people gene- suggestion which has come from the Tas-
rally. There is no doubt that the demand manian legislature.
for mechanical means for settling disputes The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
between the two houses must have the Australia) [12.2]: I listened with much
effect of removing the responsibility for instruction to a speech made by the hon.
legislation from the shoulders of the repre- member, Mr. Carruthers, and that made
sentatives to the people themselves, and to by the hon. member,
by the hon. member, Mr. McMillan.
that extent it would be mischievous in Whilst listening to the hon. member, Mr.
destroying the sense of responsibility in Carruthers, I have always recognised the
the representatives of the people, I should difficulty of defining what is a tory and
like to correct the hon. and learned mem- what is a radical. I always thought that
ber, Dr. Quick, in regard to his statement hon. gentleman was called a radical. Some
about the amendment suggested by the people occasionally say I am a conservative
Tasmanian Parliament. I voted against in my tendencies.
that amendment. I was not sorry it was
An Hon. MEMBER : So say all of us !
carried. It was simply placed here, as
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
stated in the note, in order that it might pleased to hear the hon. member say so.
[The Hon. N. J. Brown.
Commonwealth of
557
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
agree to.”
The Hon. S. FRASER : There are six the destruction of the constitution, he con-
species in Australia !
cluded by saying, at last, that he would
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Now support a general referendum to the whole
I find, after listening to the hon. member, people. Do not hon. members see that
Mr. Carruthers, that the danger of the here we have a fair instance of the way in
present constitution is that the result will which the larger populations might, under
be to establish a senate more radical than certain circumstances, treat the smaller
the house of representatives.
ones? Here we have a man of the highest
The Hon. S. FRASER : That is quite character showing us that we are clearly
possible!
in the right, showing with a force of rea-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That soning not to be surpassed in Australia,
is what he said. The hon. gentleman, Mr. that the position we have maintained
Carruthers, developing the tory instincts throughout is the logical and true position,
which are always latent in your radical, but then saying, “You had better give in,
who becomes a tyrant the moment he and you must give in, and I am going to
gets an opportunity, immediately shifts his vote for the very thing which I have
ground, and shows what our true relative shown you logically you ought never to
positions are, and I find that I am the
radical and that he is the conservative. I An Hon. MEMBER :
am not a bit anxious myself about this The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: He
senate being too radical under the pro- finished up after all this by telling us that,
visions of this bill. I am not at all satis- although we are right, still we have to give
fied that the public opinion which gets in- in. Why? Because the larger colonies
flamed, but generally locally inflamed-it want it.
is generally a fire confined to a town or An Hon. MEMBER : They do not !
two, and the blaze does not extend to the The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
whole state-I am not afraid that this not say that everybody is unreasonable.
blaze, however fatal and destructive in its Now, let us consider the basic principle of
local operation, will extend throughout all this. The federation is to represent
the whole commonwealth. I am satisfied the states, and to represent the people.
that the better and calmer atmosphere You have to get an agreement of both be-
which you get by spreading the area of selec- fore you arrive at a conclusion. On that
tion, will produce results, not so destruc- lies the foundation of federation. Alter
tive as, from a radical point of view, my hon. that, and you have something or other, but
friend, Mr. Carruthers, seemed to think. it is not federation. Now, what is proposed
Again, I was delighted with the speech of here is to create deadlocks for the
purpose
the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, because of destroying the constitution. That is the
he supplied us with every argument neces- substantial proposition before us, because,
sary to show the absolute needlessness of depend upon it, that when you give an invi-
any of these provisions. He did more than tation of that kind you will have it accepted.
that; he came to a conclusion diametri- The states are to remain in their entirety.
cally opposed to his arguments, and after They are not to be interfered with, they
showing us, with conclusive logical reason- are to have their sovereign rights, and to
ing that delighted every man in this Con- speak as states; and the people are to
vention, that this provision went to the speak as the people. Therefore, if the true
very root of the federal principle, and, principle underlying federation is carried
whilst preventing inconvenience, caused out, the rights of no one are infringed upon.
558
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
The identity of every state is preserved. they know that in the long run they can
But if you tell the house dominant in have their own way, and reduce the feder-
numbers that they have at the back of ation practically to a consolidated body?
them the power to make numbers the only In fact, they will be bound to have it if
criterion, and to reduce the smaller states there is a strong view held by the majority
to absolute dependence upon their will, of the people of the larger colonies in
where is your federation, and where is your favour of it. Suppose that New South
safeguard that this will never be resorted Wales and Victoria feel very strongly on.
to ? Hon. gentlemen may say, “We will some subject which the rest of Australasia
surround it with many safeguards.” feel equally strongly against, and suppose
Mr. SYMON: If it is never to be re- that you put all these provisions in antece-
sorted to, wby put it in ?
dent to having an actual referendum, I admit
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If it that it means a lot of trouble, time, and
is a piece of humbug, why put it in ? expense; but would your responsible go-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You do vernment—which, after all, will be in the
not want a man to commit murder, but end responsible only to the majority of the
you make a law providing that he shall be people of Australia under the constitution
hanged if he does !
as proposed—bother about that? They
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Some would say, "Ob, bother the expense; don't
people will be hanged, anyhow. I will let these snaller populations dominate
take the various proposals which have been you; do all that is necessary.” And I
made. Suppose this were the proposal, in submit that, with all these precautions,
the event of a disagreement and not being they would land us truly in much delay
able to come together, dissolve both houses, and trouble in legislation and much ex-
and when they meet again, in the event pense in carrying out the views of the
of there being an absolute majority of the commonwealth ; but protection of the
representatives, or a certain proportion as smaller states in the end would not come
has been proposed, and a refusal by a from it at all. Sir, the very essence of a
majority or a certain proportion of the federation, as nobody pointed out so well
senate, then have a referendum. I admit as my hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, is this
that you surround yourselves by these very condition which is now sought to be
methods with considerable safeguards, that interfered with. A good deal has been
is to say, you make the power of the re- altered even up to the present time. The
ferendum to the people ultimately exceed position is getting weaker and weaker, and
ingly difficult. Still you have got it there. the anxieties of the smaller colonies are
If you are to have under this constitution being more and more increased.
a government such as is known to us under Dr. QUICK : You got an important
the term of a constitutional government,
amendment made this morning in your
I admit that they may take immense favour !
risk in taking that course, and they will The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If we
never take that course unless they know now have to tell the colonies that, although
that they have a majority of the people at they have got the appearance of being able
the back of them. But supposing you have to act as states as well as being able to act
your responsible government with the popu- as populations, in substance that power
lations of thelarger colonies entirely agreed has been taken from them, and the popu-
and enthusiastic, what will they trouble lation can dominate them at any moment
about the intermediate difficulties when when the executive chooses to so resolve:
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
559
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australicu Bili.
fore us.
I am afraid that we are making a new voting was not such as it would have been
constitution which may work well, but had there been time for that full debate
which will not be federation, and which which the question deserves. On that occa-
will not be at all the bill we were sent here sion I voted with the hon. and learned mem-
to consider and pass. It is painful for me ber, Mr. Isaacs, who tabled a proposition
to look forward to the possibilities of con- which I thought then, and which I have
flict between the two houses. I believe thought since, was well calculated to meet
that to anticipate them will be to create the difficulties which it was intended to pro-
them. I believe that to make cumbersome vide against. I am glad that we are dis-
provisions for the purpose of dealing with cussing this matter at length now, because
them will be to make provisions which I can conceive that there is no more im-
will cause that which we wish to prevent. portant question which can or has come be-
Whilst if we leave the constitution to its
We are creating a huge machine
own legitimate working, representing the to provide for the government of over
people as people representing the states as 3,000,000 of people to-day, and no one
states, and requiring the concurrence of knows how many millions of people as time
the people and of the states, there will goes by, and it seems to me absolutely
come into the administration of public important, not only that we should con-
affairs a mutual thankfulness and concilia- sider the construction of that machine-
tion which, so far from creating un- that is only a small part of it—but also
pleasantness, will produce affection and this that we should consider with even more
deadlock bogy, which is only raised for care the way in which it will work after
the purpose of making the stronger bodies it is constructed. He would be mad, in-
dominate, will never bave occasion to be deed, who spent much time in designing
called into existence, will never have birth. an engine who left out of his consideration
I sincerely hope that none of these pro- a safety-valve which would provide for
visions will be accepted. I think that by that machine doing its work, and continu-
legislation of this means we will create the ing to exist once it was made.
It seems
very thing we wish to avoid, and if we are to me that on this occasion what we are
to begin with trusting each other the trust dealing with to-day is just that provision
must be founded first of all on a fair and for a safety-valve, without which all our
reasonable basis between the colonies in care in the construction of the legislative
which the position of every state is to have machine may be absolutely thrown away,
all due respect, and there must be nothing and after we have taken the utmost care
within the four corners of the constitution to construct it some crisis may arise, when
which might make this conjunction, for cer- the whole thing will be destroyed. It has
tain purposes, of independent states a wip- been said by some that a deadlock is a
ing out of the smaller and a merging of mere bogy. If it were a bogy it might be
them in the larger.
disregarded, but the possibility before us
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South is a danger which is not imaginary, but
Australia) [12:18] : I am very glad that real. Have we not all seen in our different
we have on this occasion plenty of time states from time to time deadlocks arising,
to discuss this important question. In sometimes over most important matters, at
Adelaide it was brought up at a some- other times over less important matters,
what late stage of our proceedings, and between the two houses of the legislature?
there was practically no time for discus- And if they can arise there—as I think
sion. We had three or four votes, and th was put by the hon. member, Dr. Quick,
560 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT..1897.1
, , ] Australia Bill.
just now—where one house represents only frequently arise on some matter of mere
a portion of the people, whilst the other temporary and passing importance, or on
represents all the people, how much more questions not involving state but national
are they likely to when not only one, but interests. Take, for instance, one which it
both houses rest “ broad-based upon the appears to me might arise at an early date.
people's will.” It seems to me that the Supposing the first elections to the senate
powerful senate we have striven to consti- were carried out as they almost certainly
tute is much more likely to be involved in will be on the ticket principle—that the
conflicts with the other branch of the legis- whole of the senators returned by New
lature than such an upper house has been, South Wales represented free-trade, and
as we have seen, in the various colonies in that in the other colonies, too, a proportion,
the past. If the danger be real, if it be more or less, of free-traders were returned.
imminent, as I believe it to be, how im- Is it not conceivable that very early in the
portant that we should provide some way existence of the cornmonwealth, not even
out of this difficulty which public opinion on a question of state interests, but on
does not create, but which the facts of another matter, in which separate states
the case absolutely necessitate! The ques- were not concerned at all, but sections of
tion of state rights was raised. Whilst all the states, there might be a serious
I am an advocate of state rights, I must dispute between the two houses. If the
confess that I was very much interested one house—the house of representatives
in Adelaide, and have been since, by a passed a tariff to a large extent based on
speech made early in the debates there protectionist principles, and the majority in
by the hon. and learned member, Mr. the senate threw the tariff out, that would
O'Connor, when he drew a distinction which absolutely dislocate the whole of the affairs
seemed at the time to be somewhat subtle, of the commonwealth, and would throw in
but which has grown in my thoughts to confusion the government for the time-
since-a distinction between state rights being.
and state interests. I want for a moment The Hon. S. FRASER : If the protec-
or two to dwell upon that distinction to tionists returned a majority in the one
show that whilst deadlocks may arise on
house would they not return a majority in
questions of state interests they can hardly the other ?
arise on matters of state rights. We pro-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Does the
vide for state rights by the equal repre-
hon, member not see that in such a matter
sentation in the senate of all the colonies. as that to which I have referred the
group-
We provide for the protection of state ing of the electors would be of great im-
rights by the express provision that only portance ? On most questions the mere
certain powers shall be handed over to the grouping is a matter of minor importance,
federation, and that the residue of the but on such a question as that I can con-
powers shall be in the hands of the separate ceive that the difference in grouping would
states. We provide for state rights in this make all the difference in the policy of the
manner; but when we come to matters of two houses.
state interest to take the highest possible The Hon. H. DOBSON: Does the hon.
question upon which a dispute between member contend that the question of pro-
the two houses may arise-we come to tection is not a state right question ? Half
matters on a very much lower plane. But
the bill depends upon it !
disputes, I think, will more frequently arise The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I can con.
on a lower plane than this—they will more ceive that there might be a difference in
2
[The Hon. T. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
561
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
a tariff-protective or otherwise--which conceive that there is any other body which
might affect state rights. I may mention ought to arbitrate, or which ought to be
one, because it occurs to my mind, not as set up to determine, such questions. Still
the most important, but as suiting the in- further dwelling on the point which was
terjection of the hon. member. Supposing suggested by some one, that the provision
it were proposed to place salt on the free of ways to overcome deadlocks provokes
list. It will be understood that as that is a deadlocks, I want to call special attention
large industry there, the inclusion of salt in to an act of Parliament passed in South
the free list might seriously prejudice South Australia in 1882. Before that time we had
Australia. It may be supposed that the had several deadlocks. On various public
inclusion of that line in the free list would questions, not always of first importance,
be of no advantage to us; but still only in there have been disputes between the two
that way could state interests come in. On houses, and in 1882 an act was passed which
the broader question of free-trade and pro- provided for the settlement of these differ-
tection, without reference to particular ences. That act provided chiefly as follows:
items, it seems to me that state interests, Whenever any bill or any act shall have been
much less state rights, could not come into
passed by the House of Assembly during any
consideration in any way. But supposing
session of Parliament, and the same bill, or a
similar bill with substantially the same objects
such a question as that wereone upon which and having the same title, shall have been passed
a dispute arose between the two houses is by the House of Assembly during the next en-
itnot of extreme importance that we should suing Parliament, a general election of the House
of Assembly having taken place between two
provide against such a contingency ; that
such parliaments, the second and third reading
we should provide that the whole legisla. having been passed in the second instance by an
tive machine should not be thrown out of absolute majority of the whole number of mem-
gear ; that the whole action of the govern-
bers of the said House of Assembly, and both
such bills shall have been rejected by, or fail to
ment should not be paralysed by a dis-
become law in consequence of any amendments
pute on a matter concerning which state made therein by the Legislative Council
rights could not, as far as I can see, come it shall be lawful for the Governor to do
up at all? If the question of free-trade and
either of two things : He may either dis-
protection were a cause of dispute, the only solve both houses--the lower and the upper
possible way to settle it, I think, would be
house-and send them to their constituents,
by the referendum. It seems to me that that and let the constituents determine the whole
would be a perfectly fair question to sub- question, or he may—and this is the alter-
mit—and if the people of the common- native--simply issue writs for an addi-
wealth decided to adopt the principles of tional one-third number of the members of
free-trade, so it ought to be. If, on the the Legislative Council. There beingtwenty-
other hand, the majority of the common. four members in that body, he may issue
wealth preferred the principles of protec- writs for an additional eight members. I
tion, certainly the will of the majority also
suppose the idea was to parallel, as nearly
in that case should prevail.
as possible, what would be done in the
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: Would House of Lords when a difficulty arose
that majority pass the tariff ?
which could be cured by the addition of
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: If a dis- certain members to that body, or what
pute occurred between the two houses the would have been done in New South Wales
only court of arbitration to which it could where, if a difficulty arose, it might be cured
be referred for settlement would be the by the addition to the nominee council of
people of the commonwealth. I cannot certain additional nominee members.
562
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.1
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : To a certain further. I would remind hon. members
extent what is done in Canada!
of the conditions under which they are
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: And was done elected to parliament. I need only remind
in New Zealand !
parliamentarians of those conditions. I
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: To a cer- need not argue a point so self-evident. A
tain extent that has been done in Canada, dissolution of the assembly takes place. A
and what, my hon. friend, Mr. Deakin, re- new house is returned. I ask,"Is it possible
minds me, was done in New Zealand. That to say what are the views of the electors ?'
was the idea, I suppose, which suggested Is it not always impossible to say what they
this addition of one-third to the number of are? Do we not know that personal con-
members of the Legislative Council. Of siderations, past services, local questions-
course, this one-third would be got rid of a new bridge, a town hall, a railway line
by no vacancies which might occur being —that all these things come in? Is there
filled till the normal condition was re- erer an election taking place upon one
stored. I have shown that in 1882 pro- single issue? Are not all elections com-
vision was made against deadlocks. On plicated by the introduction of several
the theory suggested by some hon. mem- issues ? Besides, members are elected for
bers since 1882, we ought to have dead- three years, or for some other term ; but
locks almost without number—at least one is it not known by the voters when they
a session. What are the facts ? The facts vote for the members so returned that be-
are that since 1882 we have not had a sides the main question that may be before
single deadlock. On one or two occasions the public at the time, there is the par-
there have been some symptoms of trouble, liamentary policy during three or four
but the symptoms have rapidly disappeared years to be considered? All these matters
and the trouble has never come. Now, does come into consideration, in addition to
that not absolutely dispose of the sugges- personal and local matters, in deciding for
tion that in attempting to provide against whom electors will vote. It is, therefore,
deadlocks you create deadlocks? Does it in my view, absolutely impossible to ascer-
not prove that the safety-valve on the tain the will of the people on any par-
engine does not create a disaster but rather ticular question by any election of mem-
provides against the possibility of such an bers of parliament. If it be provided, as
occurrence even when danger arises ? I hope it will be, that a dissolution of
The Hon. S. FRASER : It depends on the both houses will be possible, even that
provision !
may not deal with the matter. Let there
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I imagine be a double dissolution. Suppose that the
that this Convention will make such pro- question of free-trade and protection is the
vision as will not provoke but prevent such rock upon which the legislative machinery
difficulties as we are accustomed to call has come to grief. A dissolution takes
deadlocks. I will pass on to consider the place, and members come back again. It
methods by which we might overcome dis- is quite possiblethat they may come back in
putes between the two houses. It has been nearly the same, if not in quite the same,
said that the difficulty might be overcome proportions, as before the dissolution. How
by a dissolution. I quite agree with the much further on are you? Do you not
remarks of one hon. gentleman who said see that all the difficulties are accentuated
that the possibility of a dissolution might from public agitation, from the speeches
often prevent but could not cure deadlocks. which are made, from the feeling which
I agree with that observation. But I go is evolved, from the antagonism between
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
563
[15 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the two branches of the legislature? All The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Practic-
these things constitute a more serious ally, the only thing which would justify
menace to the state than there was at the the referendum would be a crisis threat-
beginning, and the whole federation is in ening the existence of the commonwealth
greater, not less, danger. In a large num- itself; when it might be the only alter-
ber of cases it may be in greater danger
native to a civil war. And, even if we
as the result of a double dissolution. Thus could be certain of such a crisis arising
it is necessary, to my mind, that you should only once in a century—if we could be
provide for something further than a sure to-day that no such crisis would arise
double dissolution. I, personally, am in
within the next hundred years, still, it
favour of the referendum upon other ques- would be a wise thing to put into the con-
tions besides the settlement of deadlocks, stitution a provision to guard against so
and it will not be surprising, therefore, serious a danger, so terrible a contingency.
that since I am in favour of the referen- come now to the final point with which
dum for the settlement of other matters
I have to deal-that is, the questions upon
that in so serious a case as that under which the referendum will take place. It
consideration, in this very serious difficulty, seems to me that a broad distinction must
I should also be in favour of it.
It seems
be drawn between matters affecting the
to me that the people whom we more or constitution—that is, any change of itm
less faithfully represent, of whom the two and matters well within the four corners
houses of parliament are more or less a of the constitution. I regard the consti-
faithful reflection, are those to whom the tution which we are now framing as a
appeal should be made in any difficulty to a deed of partnership between the colonies
ascertain whether or not parliament does which come in—the compact upon which
truly reflect their view. And the view of we agree to federate, in consideration of the
the people can be obtained intelligently terms of which the various states makes a
only through a referendum. I am not afraid certain surrender of the powers they at pre-
that the referendum will be too largely sent possess. I would not consent, underany
availed of. In the first place, there is the circumstances, to agree that any change in
cost to be considered. We have bad some the constitution should take place without
experience in connection with the election a referendum requiring a majority not only
of this body of what an election over of the people but of the states.
It seems
the whole of Australia will cost. I have to me that it is essential to the very exist-
not looked at the figures recently; but, ence of federation that a distinction should
speaking from my memory of them, I do be drawn between these two things. If,
not think it is likely that the cost of a refer. for instance, we provide for a majority of
endum would be less than £50,000. Now, the people only, without reference to
is it at all likely, putting down the cost at whether a majority of the states concur,
anything like that sum, that any govern- such an alteration of the constitution
ment, or either house of the legislature, might be made as might upset the whole
would thoughtlessly or heedlessly force a federation. The equal representation of
referendum ? I think not. It would be the states in the senate might be upset,
a step taken only from extreme necessity, and the whole basis of the federation might
taken under the pressure of a serious danger be entirely changed. The whole conditions
to the existence of the state itself.
might be seriously disturbed by such a
The Right Hon. SirG. TURNER: Orthreat- decision. But if we provide, as I cer-
ening the existence of the goverument! tainly hope that a large majority of hon.
564
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.1
members will provide, that any proposal for served next by the absolute maintenance,
an alteration of the constitution shall re- except by the consent of the majority of
quire before it can take effect that it should the states themselves, of the constitution
be assented to by a majority of the people in its present form in the form under
and by a majority of the states also, we shall which we federate-and that in these mat-
safeguard all those matters within the defi- ters which are within the four corners of
nition of the hon, member, Mr. O'Connor, the constitution, which in no way threaten
of "state rights”-all those matters within its existence or impair its efficiency-in
the description of being constitutional, and these matters simply of dispute between
having to do with the compact under which the two houses, it seems to me that we do
we federate. But as to the other matters, not endanger the federation.
such questions as disputes between the two Mr. SYMON : The federal idea, I said !
houses which involve no rights or interests The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Nor do we
of the states, which do not carry with impair the perfectness of the federal idea
them any menace to any state, no matter by consenting to such an arbitrament in
how small or large, in these matters we the case of dispute between the two houses
should be prepared to let the great federal as that of reference to the whole people.
idea which has brought us together here, At any rate, that is the view I hold, and
and which we are striving to perfect, pre- while I very much dislike the threats of
vail, and I would be content to accept in a which we have heard too much on both
settlement of such a dispute between the sides, while I very much deprecate state-
two houses the vote of a majority of the ments which sometimes we hear from one
electors within the commonwealth.
side of the house and sometimes from the
Mr. SYMON : That destroys the federal other, sometimes from the larger colonies
idea altogether!
and sometimes from the smaller, that if we
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I am glad do not get this there can be no federation
my hon. friend has made that suggestion, -while I very much deprecate that kind
because it gives me an excuse for taking of thing, still I recognise that the smaller
two or three moments more which I should states have obtained what is not a conces-
not have occupied without good. excuse, sion, but a right-equal representation in
because I feel that I have already tres- the senateand as we have obtained other
passed for some time upon the attention things for which we have fought, and
of the Convention. But the interjection fought strenuously, while we have given
of the hon: and learned member demands in several instances to the larger states
an answer, and I am prepared to give one. matters which they could not have got
He says that to do what I have just sug- without us—and I want to be clear about
gested would endanger the very existence that point; I want to point out that in this
of the federal parliament as such. My Convention, if the smaller states desired
answer is that the state rights, of which I to do it, if they were imbued with the
am an advocate, are guarded within the spirit with which sometimes they are said
terms of the constitution itself, and the to be imbued—the spirit or determination
preservation of that constitution I have to thwart the larger states whenever they
already stated my determination to insure. had the power—if we had so desired we
The state rights are preserved first, as I have might have thwarted the larger states.
already put it, by the reservation to the We are thirty out of fifty here, and if
various states of all powers not expressly we had been imbued with the spirit attri-
handed over to the federation, are pre- buted to us we could have said at the be-
1
[The Hon. F. 7. Holder.
Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
565
i
way!
ginning, and adhered to it right through people of the commonwealth of Australia
“ We will do this and do no other, and to crush out what might be considered by
you shall submit to our behest all along the people of South Australia as a state
the line” I say we could have done that, right? Surely that is not intended ? I
for we had the power, and we had the do not believe in mechanical means for do-
numbers too. We have not done it. We, ing away with deadlocks. I do not think
the smaller states, have striven to be fair there is any necessity for it. I have been
and reasonable throughout.
in the Parliament of Victoria for a grea
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Have many years. I was a member of the As-
not the larger states done the sare? sembly for many years, and have now been
The Hon. F.W.HOLDER: They have. in the Council for many years, and the
I am simply speaking in deprecation of only deadlock we ever had in our Parlia-
the contention on one side or the other ment was the Darling grant deadlock. I
that this must be done or there will be no do not call it a deadlock when the Upper
federation. I am saying that the conces- House, as at present constituted in Vic-
sions which have been made again and toria, rejects an Export of Products Bill.
again by the majority to meet the larger An Hon. MEMBER : Or a Factories Bill!
colonies have in every case been made by The Hon. S. FRASER: Or a Factories
the hearty concurrence, and more than than Bill.
that, by the very votes of the representa- An Hon. MEMBER: You get your own
tives of the smaller colonies; and that
being so, I think we might fairly lay aside The Hon. S. FRASER: We do not
these jealousies and contentions as to the get our own way. I hope we are just as
larger and smaller colonies, and look at reasonable as an equal number of mem-
these matters, which are purely disputes bers in the other house. I do not say that
upon questions which will sometimes be we are better; but, at any rate, we are
questions of etiquette only, and on other older, as a matter of fact, and we ought
occasions will not trench upon state rights to have more experience. I do not call
or state interests—I think we might leave disputes on ordinary matters of legisla-
these matters to the arbitrament of the tion deadlocks. I call a deadlock a dis-
whole body of the electors, no matter where pute such as that which arose over the
they live, and be content to accept the ver- Darling grant in Victoria. On that occa-
dict of the majority, whether that majority sion I supported the popular view of the
live on this side of the continent or on the
The proposal was to make a grant
other, no matter wherever they may be. to the then governor-a nice, courteous
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) gentleman, willing to do what was right
[12:44]: I listened with great attention in every respect, who had under him a re-
to the remarks of the Treasurer of South markably powerful government, of which
Australia, and I was very sorry to find the late George Higinbotham was Attor-
that in some respects he agrees, and, I ney-General, and the late Sir James McCul-
think, without reservation, to a referen- loch, then Mr. McCulloch, Chief Secretary.
dum, and that he referred to the matter in The popular view was to grant the Gover-
the
way
of a concession. Surely, we are nor £20,000—a monstrous proposal.
not going to have a referendum on ques- An Hon. MEMBER : The hon. gentle-
. tions of tariff and matters of that kind? man supported it !
If we are going to apply the referendum to The Hon. S. FRASER: I did, and I
such subjects there may be endless strife. have regretted it ever since.
Are we going to ask the whole of the An Hon. MEMBER : Was it carried ?
case.
566
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Another Hon. MEMBER: It was passed The Hon. S. FRASER : My colleagues
by the Assembly of Victoria !
from Victoria profess to be democrats. I
The Hon. S. FRASER: The Imperial think that the Attorney-General is a demo-
Gorernment would not allow the Governor crat of democrats. I believe in the sin-
to accept the grant. I cannot remember cerity of the hon. and learned gentleman,
now the exact nature of the correspond- of course; but I say that it is quite on the
ence, but the Imperial Government put cards that the senate may be more demo-
their vetó on the proposal forth with, and cratic than the house of representatives,
very properly so. We need have no hesi- and it may possibly be the means of a
tation in calling a spade a spade, and in remedy in certain cases. I do not say that
my opinion that proposed grant was noth- I would object to a double dissolution, per-
ing more nor less than a bribe to the then hapsit depends on how the discussion
Governor, coerced, I think I may use the may end; it may go in the direction of
word, by a powerful executive govern- some modification of the proposal of the
ment.
hon. and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, or
The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon, member a still greater modification of the views of
think he is in order in discussing the Dar- the Tasmanian Parliament. But I would
ling grant in connection with this question, point out that this senate is to be elected
except by way of illustration ?
for a term of six years, half of the mem-
The Hon. S. FRASER: I only refer to bers of the senate going to their constitu-
it by way of illustration, and I was saying ents every three years, of necessity, to the
that the rejection of an ordinary measure whole people. We are dealing now with
by an upper house or senate should not be the whole people. We are not dealing with
regarded as a deadlock. At that time the the house of lords, who represent only a
Government confessed judgment, and in section of the people, and who may, from
that way paid the public creditor. To want of knowledge and other reasons, vote
submit a tariff or any such matter to a against the true interests of the people for
referendum of the people is, in my opinion, a time, and when we have a senate rest-
utterly destructive of responsible govern- ing on the bedrock of manhood suffrage
ment. Under this Federal Bill which I
-the senate representing the whole man-
hold in my hand, as passed by the Ade-
hood, and in some colonies the whole
laide Convention, we have constituted
womanhood also, of the country-I cannot
a senate to be elected for a term of
conceive a case where there would be a
six years to be voted for by the whole
people of the states--the whole people,
necessity for mechanical means to get rid
of deadlocks. I cannot conceive of such a
nothing more nor less--and I agree with
case, because the natural referendum comes
the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, that
it is quite on the cards that the senate
round every three years at the furthest,
be more democratic than the house of
and supposing that a deadlock occurs, as I
may
representatives, and for the simple reason
said at Adelaide, after the expiration of
that the house of representatives are to be
one or two years of the term of the exist-
elected by sections of the people, and being ing parliament--supposing that it arises
elected by sections of the people, they will
during the currency of the three years of
naturally, of necessity, represent the true
the term of the senate—the executive of
opinions of the sections,
the day has only to wait a year or two
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Very years or thereabouts to settle the deadlock
few democrats will contest the senate elec- by the natural constitutional means of
tion; they will not have the means to do it! this act. We have not given the senate
[The Hon. S. Fraser.
Commonwealth of
567
[15 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
many powers. Their powers are greatly also the other items in the list. We have
restricted. They have not the power of searched the records of the United States,
spending one shilling of the public money. and that is the sort of paltry thing we find.
That has to be done by way of message Mr. SYMON : That is only in a state !
from the governor, and on the recommen- The Hon. S. FRASER: Yes, in a state.
dation of the government of the day. The Mr. SYMON: A unified government !
senate has not the power of increasing the The Hon. S. FRASER: Yes, a unified
expenditure by one shilling. We have by government. Are we going to unify this
the vote of yesterday prevented the senate federation of ours ? As sure as we give the
from amending taxation bills.
referendum to the federal government, so
An HON. MEMBER :
surely shall we make it a unified govern-
The Hon. S. FRASER: Yes, I voted ment. The hon. member, Mr. Douglas,
for that; but I do not know that I would referred yesterday to the fact of a mem-
have voted for it if I had been certain that ber of the House of Lords being returned
we were going to have the referendum. I to the Legislative Council of New South
did not think that we would do anything Wales in the olden days to express dis-
so dangerous. I voted for that because approbation of the then existing state of
our people would not accept the bill were things. It is not possible to go back. The
we to go back to our colony with a pro- people of the Australian colonies would
vision in the bill giving the senate power rise up as one man if we were to unify
to amend taxation bills. But I say again
But I say again them again. There is no doubt about that,
that we have not given the senate powers
and we must consider the true federal
enough to do any harm. Their powers are principles. I maintain that the proper
for good, their powers are for the further way of settling deadlocks is a conference
consideration of bills, and therefore I fail between the two houses-the same in
to see why there is any necessity to coerce the future as in the past. We have only
the senate and to bring them under a re- had one deadlock in Victoria, as I said
ferendum such as is now desired. The before. We have passed through that
referendum that is in practice in Switzer- ordeal. No trouble has arisen, or is likely
land is an entirely different thing; it is a
to arise in the future. There is much
conservative device. Only after both houses less likelihood of trouble arising in the
have dealt with a matter can it be referred future with a senate erected on the bed-
to the people; and frequently they have rock-elected by the whole people—and
decided against it. The hon. and learned with a house of representatives elected by
member, Mr. Isaacs, has produced a state- the voice of the people. You would have
ment showing the matters that have been only a short time to wait; then why pro-
dealt with in America on the referendum. vide any mechanical means which would
Are they not trumpery? Are we to trouble roy the federation we are about to
the people with trumpery matters such create? I will oppose any kind of a refer-
as a constitutional amendment increasing endum. I do not say that in the last
the sessional days, and various trifles like resort I might not agree to a double disso-
that?
lution, because I think that, in that case,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
the house of representatives would take
The Hon. S. FRASER: I say they are very good care that they were on very
trumpery. One is an increase of the ses- safe ground before they said that it should
sional days to a hundred. Is that not be resorted to. I do not know that I need
trumpery and trifling? I say it is, and say any more, except that the argument
568
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
dred you
that Tasmania would have eight votes to that the possibility of deadlocks occurring
each one of the other colonies does not in the future under a constitution so
apply to all in a national sense.
Take a
rigid as this will be-because it is likely
hundred men in Tasmania--the first hun- to be more rigid than the British Con-
could find in the streets—and a stitution--should be prevented, and in
thousand men in Victoria--the first thou- deference to that opinion I am prepared
sand you could meet-and I would almost to vote for some method which will enable
venture to say that the opinion of the ma- a direct expression of the will of the people
jority of the thousand in the city of Mel- to be obtained. I am not in a position at
bourne, and the opinion of the majority of the present time to say what system I
the hundred in Launceston—or you might would favour, whether the referendum or
say in Brisbane or Adelaide—would be the the dissolution of the senate, though I am
same. The opinions of the people are as more inclined to favour the latter. I want
truly expressed in the voice of a small to see it made almost impossible for there
average number as in the voice of a large to be any interference with the senate by
average number of them, and it is the the ministry of the day. I suppose that,
opinions of the people you want to find out. under any circumstances, the ministry of
There is no especial magic in numbers, and the day must, to a certain extent, control
in the one case you get the true opinions these dissolutions; but if it were possible
of the people just as much as in the other. to bring about a dissolution, and to send
Therefore, I hope the Committee will rise the senate to the country without the in-
to the occasion, and will decide, as we must terference of the ministry of the day, I
have something, to accept the Tasmanian would have no hesitation in voting for a
suggestion, or some modification of the provision which would have that effect. I
proposal made by the hon. and learned do not want to allow the senate to be
member, Mr. Isaacs, at Adelaide, and dis- dominated by the ministry of the day;
cussed by us there.
but I want to see that body dominated by
[The Chairman left the chair at 1.2 p.m. The the people of the country. The difficulty
Committee resumed at 2 p.m.]
which suggests itself to me is that the
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New ministry of the day may attempt to domi-
South Wales) [2]: I am one of those who
nate the senate. That, I think, is very
sincerely and truly believe that deadlocks
undesirable. If the people desire to domi-
of themselves are no evil to the countries
nate the senate, they should have the right
where they occur. I think that deadlocks,
and the power to do so; but how can it
as a rule, that is, such deadlocks as we
best be provided that they should have
have had under the British Constitution,
have the effect of creating good public referendum, or by a dissolution of the
that power? Can it be done best by the
opinion, and that while those which have
senate ? I am inclined to think that the
occurred--though we have not had very
much experience of what might be called principle which has apparently worked so
deadlocks in any of the Australian colonies,
to well in South Australia, would be likely
except Victoria-may have been inconve-
to work equally well under this constitution.
nient to the administration of the day,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There is no equal
they gave no inconvenience to the people representation of states there !
of the colony in which they occurred. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: There
Notwithstanding this opinion, I cannot is not!
shut my eyes to the fact that out of doors The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is the
there is a very strong public sentiment whole difficulty !
[The Hon. S. I'raser.
Commonwealth of
569
[15 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
]
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Sup- such as we propose to establish under the
pose the house of representatives is sent to bill, is it not to be supposed that it will
the country, and itcomes back and reaffirms ultimately recognise its duty to the country
the principle upon which it was sent to the at large? Although I am one of those
country, would the senate dare, in the face who believe that the deadlocks which
of the fact that its members would know we have had have not been injurious to
that they would have to go to the country the country, that they have created public
if they rejected the measure, refuse to pass opinion, and have made the people alive
it? What has been our experience even to their interests and their duties, I am
with regard to the House of Lords—and quite prepared to place a safety-valve in
I suppose that, under no circumstances, the constitution which will have the effect
could we create such a conservative body of making the senate answerable to public
as that? Have they ever failed to give opinion. But I will not give any vote
way to public opinion when that public which in my opinion will allow the ministry
opinion was clearly expressed? The very of the day to dominate the senate.
last time they had a conflict with the Mr. LYNE : Will not the hon. member
House of Commons-I think so far back
be doing that if he gives the ministry the
as 1866
power of dissolution ?
An Hon. MEMBER: The Commons passed
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: To
their resolution in 1860 !
some extent that may be so; but you first
The Ilon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: That
of all get public opinion by dissolving the
was the last time that the House of Lords
house of representatives. Having done
had a real conflict with the House of
that, I do not think you dominate the
Commons.
senate if the senate refuses to accede to
Mr. SYMON : There was a dispute in con-
what is the expressed opinion of the coun-
nection with the Home Rule Bill, and the
try. In a general election, I think, there
House of Lords was victorious. The coun-
is no domination of the senate if they are
try supported thein !
told that they also must go to the country
An Hon. MEMBER: That was not a
and obtain the opinion of the people.
financial question !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Does the hon.
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT:
member mean the public opinion of the
Well, I will take the last budget introduced
bulk of the population ?
in the House of Commons--that including
the death duties. Such duties were never be-
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: Cer-
fore imposed upon the wealthier classes in
tainly. Any other opinion would not be
England; but the House of Lords recognised
worth having
their true position. They recognised the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The hon. mem-
fact that, inasmuch as the Commons had
ber holds that the senate must yield to
deterinined to vote for the imposition of
that?
these duties, it was their place to give The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: I
legislative effect to them. About thirteen do. I hold that the senate must yield to
or fourteen peers spoke upon the question, the determination of the house of repre-
and with the exception of Lord Herschell, sentatives sooner or later. If it is neces-
not one lord ventured to defend these sary to send the senate to the country, it
duties. But they recognised that the House ought to be sent to the country; but not
of Commons must be dominant upon such until the house of representatives has gone
a question, and when we establish a senate to the country.
2 R
570 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Suppose the whole federal idea that, coming from one
smaller states send back a majority to the of the hon, member's ability and influence,
senate in opposition to the house of repre- I view it with very great alarm. Let us
sentatives? There would still be a dead- examine it, and in a very few words put it
lock ?
in plain terms. Of course the whole power
The Hon. SirJOSEPH ABBOTT: How of legislation is distributed between the
do you solve a deadlock when it occurs federal parliament on the one hand and
under a referendum ?
the federal states upon the other. These
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That settles it! two embrace the whole area of legislation;
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: Not but the hon. member divides that portion
at all. I can see no difference. There may of legislation which belongs to the lot of
continue to be a deadlock, if you call it a the federal parliament into two classes.
deadlock, when the ministry of the day do First of all, in the one class he puts all
not get their will. If that is a deadlock, questions which are constitutional, and he
you may have deadlocks under a refer- designates as such those affecting state
endum as well as under a provision for a rights; and in the second class he puts
double dissolution,
questions which affect state interests. With
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Not under the regard to questions which are state rights,
system proposed by the hon. member, Mr. that is to say questions of the constitution,
Holder!
what member from the smaller colonies
An HON. MEMBER: You settle the dead- ever dreamt of referring them to a refer-
lock by giving one party to the dispute a endum ?
determining voice!
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The New
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: Al- South Wales Parliament did !
though I strongly believe that we have The Hon. J. H, GORDON: The New
had no deadlocks in these colonies which South Wales Parliament suggested a great
have been disastrous to the interests of the many things that they never expected the
people, although, on the contrary, I think other colonies would concede—they would
that many of these deadlocks have been never dream of a federation on such lines.
very beneficial, I should like to mention What would be the result if the larger colo-
an instance which occurred in the New nies, by their overwhelming mass vote, could
South Wales Parliament within my own outvote every other colony ? Three months
time. I remember when the Legislative after the federal parliament met we should
Council was condemned for rejecting a bill have proportional representation or, per-
which was passed almost unanimously by haps, no representation at all. The whole
the Legislative Assembly. That was not scheme might be subverted, might be turned
five years ago, and yet a few weeks ago topsy turvey, and we should be at the
mercy
the Assembly rejected the very same bill. of the larger states. Any hon, member who
I think that these delays, instead of being looks at the matter in a reasonahly fair
disastrous to the country, are beneficial. way could never expect the smaller states
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus- to come under such a constitution.
tralia) [2.9]: I should like to place before An Hon. MEMBER :
hon. members in plain terms the conse-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Until a
quences which I believe would flow from constitutional question arises the federal
the proposition put with so much ability high court is the defender of the constitu-
by the hon. member, Mr. Holder--a pro- tion. The hon, member need not elaborate
position so absolutely destructive of the that. We never dreamt of entering a
The Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott.
Commonwealth of
571
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
federation in which constitutional ques- The hon. member suggests, although he
tions were to be referred to a mass refer- puts the proposition baldly, that we should
endum.
put in some initial difficulties, some pre-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : He never said liminary stages of caution and check, be-
that!
tween the occurrence of the dispute and
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : No; the the reference to the people; but they do
hon. member made that distinction; but not really matter. They can be brushed
the inference from his argument was that aside like cobwebs. If in the end the will
because we are protected on the one side of the people is to prevail, what is the use
we might give way on the other. I would of the senate raising any question at all ?
point out, however, that there is no ad- Why have a dissolution, or any other
vantage gained from looking at the ques- check? If when the question is referred
tion from that point of view, because con- to the people, the will of the people is to
stitutional questions were never seriously prevail, where is the voice of the states ?
conceived by any member of the Conven-
Mr. SYMON: Smothered !
tion to be allowed to be referred to a mass
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I admit
referendum. The hon. member says with
some scheme must be evolved to meet the
regard to all other questions he is prepared dificulty of deadlocks ; but now I am only
to take a mass vote. What does that mean?
criticising the proposal of the hon. member,
Simply unification upon the whole of the
Mr. Holder. I ask hon. members to put
subjects of legislation which are delegated the thing into plain terms. Stripped of all
to the federal parliament--thatand nothing
the eloquence with which the hon. mem-
else. What are those powers? The raising
ber adorns his utterances it means nothing
of money by taxation—the regulation of
more nor less than unification almost pure
trade and commerce, defence—in fact
and simple with regard to all the powers
nearly all the questions which are of major
delegated to the federal parliament.
importance to the people. Nearly all ques-
tions of universal and vital importance
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Only as an
alternative to revolution !
to the people of this continent, are referred
to the federal parliament. As to the whole The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Exactly ;
of this immense area of legislative power, and, if it comes to that, the two larger
my hon. friend says he is willing to refer colonies now have power to say to the
it to the will of the majority. I ask where smaller colonies, “ We will annex you as
is the federal idea in that case ? It is territories,” and bar. the power of England
simply unification with regard to all these we should have to submit. At present we
powers.
are simply arranging the ternis of federa-
An Hon. MEMBER: No doubt!
tion by consent on both sides, and the
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The hon. arbitrament of war is not to be considered
member agrees with me, although coming at all. If we look at the proposition
from one of the larger colonies, and he plainly and simply, can any hon. member
takes a very fair view of the question. The dispute the proposition that it means noth-
hon. member, Mr. Holder, although ex- ing more nor less, in the last analysis, than
plaining the matter with his usual masterly unification with regard to all those powers
lucidity, has not fully considered the bear- which are delegated to the federal parlia-
ing of his contention. If so, he writes ment?
himself down an absolute adherent of uni- An Hon. MEMBER : With regard to
Lication with regard to all these powers. everything ?
572 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.1 Australice Bill.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: We have
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : A reason-
a little autonomy left with regard to some able scheme such as that proposed as a
matters.
stroke of genius by the hon. member's col-
Mr. SYMON: Where?
league, the Hon. I. A. Isaacs. I believe I
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: In the mat- was the only member from the smaller
ters not delegated to the federal parlia- colonies who supported him when he pro-
ment; but I admit they are very small- posed a scheme of a double referendum,
mainly municipal powers. The whole of one to the people and one to the states.
the questions which vitally affect the lives, An Hon. MEMBER :
liberties, and wellbeing of the people of The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I am sorry
this continent are delegated to the federal the hon. member so far departed from his
parliament.
original attitude with regard to state
Mr. HIGGINS : Certainly not!
rights. The double referendum is a states-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Certainly manlike and reasonable suggestion. I will
yes. There are very few powers indeed, even give way to the hon. member to this
outside the powers in clause 52, which are extent. If there are only six colonies vot-
of great importance.
ing in states and they are three to three
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is a strong the law should pass. That, I think, would
reason for not having a deadlock !
be a fair concession.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Yes; but a An Hon. MEMBER :
still stronger reason for not having unifica- The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The hon.
tion when entering upon federation. This member, with all his charm of personality,
will be no federation. I concede what my is rather an extremist. I am trying to
hon. friend did not state, thật between the arrive at a reasonable compromise which
point of dispute between the two houses
may be accepted. I put it with all the
and the reference to the people he intends strength of which I am capable, that the
to propose some precautionary checks, proposition of the hon. member, Mr. Holder
some delays. Of what value are they if -which for a moment, I confess, under the
in the last reference, which is not very far spell of his eloquence, took my fancy, be-
off, the will of the majority is to prerail ? cause I actually went to him and made a
The senate may as well come down at suggestion that would improve his proposal
once, just as the coon in the tree says, is fatal to a federal constitution. You
" Don't shoot, I will come down." If
may as well say at once, “Take the whole;
death is inevitable he has to come down. trust to the larger colonies," if a mass
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Not alto- referendum in the last event is to control
gether; only half of him comes down ! the situation. But the outlet, the cure for
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: If I divided this, is the suggestion of the Attorney-
the hon, member into two parts, and General of Victoria—the double referen-
especially if I took the upper part of him, dum. I am willing, when there may be
of what value is the hon, member? The three colonies voting on each side, to agree
hon. member is so logical and straight that the law should pass.
forward in all his reasonings that I put it The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The majority
to him, if the mass referendum is to decide of the people in that case to prevail !
these matters, whether the effect is not The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Yes, I
unification ?
think that would be fair. That, I believe,
· The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: What is the only reasonable and feasible sugges-
is the opposite of that?
tion which has been made. It is one which
[The Hon. J. H. Gordon.
Commonwealth of
573
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
should pass.
embraces the desire of representatives on The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
both sides, of both the larger and the South Wales) [2.22]: There is no portion
smaller colonies.
of this constitution in regard to which my
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: And to have a mind has been so much exercised as the
dissolution of the house of representatives! question we are now considering. I held
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: A dissolu- for a long time very strongly the opinion
tion of the house of representatives con- that there was no more reason why we
temporaneous with the dissolution of the should have a deadlock insoluble by the
senate, if necessary.
ordinary processes which take place in
Mr. SYMON: Then a majority of the unified statés under this constitution than
states and a majority of the people ! under the ordinary constitutions under
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Exactly. I which we live in the several colonies. But
am willing to agree that where there are reflection and consideration of this matter
three states voting on each side the law convinced me that the analogy of the
settlement of disputes between two houses
Mr. SYMON : That is giving it all away of legislature in a unified form of constitu-
again!
tion is altogether misleading in the consti-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I do not tution with which we have to deal. My
think it is. I think it would be a fair hon. friend, Sir Joseph Abbott, made some
concession. I think no one wishes to blind very strong observations from his point of
his eyes to the difficulty which is presented view as to the position which had always
to hon. members. We cannot shut our eyes been taken up by the House of Lords with
to the fact that the smaller colonies, with regard to the House of Commons. I do
their comparatively sparse populations, not think we can draw any analogy from
may be in the position of putting the iron the settlement of disputes between those
hand on the larger colonies. I think it two bodies. In the first place, the powers
would be a fair concession if this proposal of the House of Lords are powers which
were made. But the proposition of my it is well recognised existed always as
hon. friend, Mr. Holder, simply puts a supporting the powers of the people ex-
blunderbuss at the head of the senate, and pressed in the House of Commons; and
threatens them with a danger from which the process of the growth of the Constitu-
there is no escape, an emasculated senate tion has been a continual assertion of
which would really be the pliant servant real power by the Commons, and a contin-
of the executive, not because it wished to ual bowing to tbat authority on the part
be, but because the conditions of the case of the Lords. But, altogether apart from
made it so.
I would ask my hon. friend that, which is a consideration arising out
to reconsider his proposition, and no one of the constitution of the House itself,
can afford better than a man of his ability there is a difference which, it seems to me,
and commanding influence to admit that is unexplainable, between the manner in
he has been wrong. I believe when he which deadlocks are solved in unified go-
fully considers the whole of the facts of vernments and the manner in which they
the proposition he has made, he will see would be solved under a constitution of this
that it is impossible, I will not say to sort. What is it that solves a deadlock
have federation with it, but the compact in the case of a difficulty between the two
will not be a federation. It will cease to be houses, say, in New South Wales and Vic.
federation. It will be an agreement into toria ? It is this : That the question at
which we comeon absolutely unequal terms. issue between the Upper House and the
574
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Lower House is a question in which the dissolution, by the public opinion of the
whole community has an interest. The states whose interests they particularly re-
Upper House or the Assembly may re- present. It appears to me that there is
present the views of some particular sec- that essential difference between the two
tion of the community, but it is a sec- cases. What do you mean by the settle-
tion of the same community, and it is ment of deadlocks? You mean that the
to the interest of the whole community deadlocks will be solved by the process of
that the question should be settled. The public opinion, which always enforces, in a
settlement of that question is a matter self-governing community, that the will of
for the whole community and so public the majority shall prevail.
opinion which is the solvent of all these The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : And if neces-
difficulties in a unified state gradually sary by a penal dissolution !
comes to the aid of the party which has The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes. But.
reason on its side, in accordance with the in the case we are dealing with now, you
view of the majority of the people, and have two sets of public opinion. You have
gradually the party standing out feels the the public opinion which upholds the house
pressure of that public opinion and gives of representatives solid and inflexible; you
way; and it is only because of the pressure have the public opinion of the state, which
of that public opinion in the unified state supports the senate equally solid and
that the party holding out does give way. equally inflexible. If you come to a con-
If the section which was supporting it dition of that kind, then you are face to
disappears, there is no backing left for the face with a very dangerous position of
opposition, and that disappears also. But things. Although I am strongly opposed
in the case of a federation you are brought to any of these mechanical processes of
face to face with a totally different con- bringing to a conclusion that which should
dition of things. The whole position is only be concluded by discussion and the
brought out by an interjection which my
arbitrament of reason, at the same time I
hon. and learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, made say that you may be brought face to face
just now. He asks : Suppose you do have with a position in which these solvents
a dissolution of the senate will not the will not be applicable. What is the posi-
same members be sent back to the senate ? tion then? The position is one of danger,
I think there can be no question that if the not only to what has been called here the
difference of opinion between the states is of federal principle, but to the union itself.
such a serious character as to render neces- You are face to face then with that posi-
sary a dissolution, the probabilities are that tion which brought about the terrible
the same public opinion which has backed appeal to arms which took place in America.
up the states in the attitude they have I do not suppose for one moment that any
taken will send back the same members resort of that kind could be possible in this
who have taken that attitude. It will only community of Australia. But if there was
be in cases of very extreme difference of a public opinion totally adverse on some
opinion depending upon the interests of par- matter of great state interest between the
ticular states, that you will have the senate nation and the states which constituted it,
standing up in such a way as to make it you would be face to face with a posi-
impossible to agree with the house of re- tion the outcome of which I do not see
presentatives, and, in these very cases, the very clearly, unless we adopt some pro-
members of the senate who have taken cess by which deadlocks may be solved.
up that attitude will be backed up, on a An appeal is often made to the example
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
575
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
of America, where undoubtedly you have States, which is so often cited, appears to
a senate with larger powers than our me to be altogether without analogy in
senate possesses, and in other ways no this matter, because of the considerations
doubt a more powerful body, because it I have pointed out. Is there any analogy
has executive functions as well. There in the case of any other community? It
is no doubt that somehow or other ques- appears to me that there is not. It ap-
tions of difference between the two houses pears to me that the fact that responsible
do settle themselves; but I think it is well government does not exist in any of those
worthy of reflection whether the settlement communities, and that there is not an ap-
of those questions arises from the nature peal to the people in other communities as
of the constitution itself, or from that there would be under this constitution,
immense machinery of party government makes an essential difference in the solu-
under which the American system is worked. tion of difficulties between the two houses.
All who know anything of American poli- Thus we are really brought face to face with
tics know that the system of parties which an entirely new position; and I think it is
was brought into existence, not for the just as well, when we are dealing with ques-
purpose of legislative work, but for the tions of this kind, that we should recognise
purpose of the election of the president, that there may be a danger in following an
and which is now in existence for the pur- historical analogy too closely. Although we
pose of the election of president every four may very well draw lessons from history,
years, and which is maintained by the inter-
and may very well be warned by what has
ests which thousands of office-holders have taken place in other countries, we should
every year in the perpetuation of the sys- be very careful to remember that we are
tem-I say that system dominates every here embarked upon an experiment which
other consideration in the United States ; it is absolutely novel. I say that the ex-
dominates notonly considerations of policy, periment is absolutely novel for these
but considerations of state interest right reasons : I quite agree with what the hon.
through the states The party machine member, Dr. Quick, said to-day, that this
dominates, governs, and uses the Constitu-
is beyond question the most democratic,
tion in such a way as to have become really and, therefore, the strongest second cham-
a more important part of the working of ber which exists in any constitution that
American institutions than the Consti- we know of. And it is that very circum-
tution itself almost. The existence of stance which some hon, members rely upon,
that strong party organisation no doubt as making the probability of conflict with
has brought about a settlement of this the other chamber less likely, which seems
question--that is to say, that a dispute to me to point not only to its being more
between the two houses is not allowed by likely, but to the conflicts being of a more
the two great parties to turn upon any difficult and insoluble character ; because
question of local interest. Party organisa- to the statement of the house of represen-
tion and party strength overshadows that, tatives, “We represent the people of the
and the only questions which arise between nation, elected on the broadest possible
them are the questions of party; and as the basis," the senate will probably answer,
base of these parties is not the state, but “We represent exactly the same voters; we
the whole union, questions are solved in represent exactly the same electorates;
the same way as any other questions if you have a right to hold to your opinion,
between two houses in a unified state are we have equally a right to hold to ours.”
solved. Therefore, the example of the United Therefore, there is no position such as the
576
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
house
House of Commons may take up in regard the way of a hasty decision.
a hasty decision. It is in the
to the House of Lords, or the assembly interests of the people themselves, and of
may take up in regard to an upper all legislation, that strong views should be
in any of the colonies, which comes to our taken on both sides of a question in order
aid in the settlement of this matter. The that the consideration may be put from
question we have to consider is this : is
every point of view, and that the people
it better for us to recognise that these in the end may get the benefit of the united
difficulties may arise, that a position of views which they may get from that con-
insoluble political complication may arise, flict. But to say that the process of this
and to make some provision for it, or to
referendum is to take away all responsi-
take a leap into the dark, with this new bility of bringing about that result from
constitution, with these great forces which representatives is wrong, and for this rea-
we bring into operation, and to trust to son: If there is a difference of opinion be-
reason and to compromise and to those tween the two houses, and hon. members
other forces which bring disputes to an end of one house know that they will have to
in ordinary cases in unified communities. I face their constituents-if there is a dispute
say that a trust of that kind, under all with the other house the country will have
the circumstances which we have before to decide between the upper house and lower
us, would not only be dangerous, but house as to which view is the view which
would be an altogether reckless disregard will be supported by them. Then there is a
of our duty in providing for the future. responsibility placed upon the members of
We are bound to look at the probabilities
the house which will be dissolved to take care
in the working of this constitution, and if that every consideration is put, that every
we see that there are chances of imminent point is yielded by them which they can pos-
danger, if we provide for no process for sibly yield, consistently with taking the right
the getting over of these difficulties, then course, and nothing is left undone which
I say that we are bound to make such pro- may bring about a settlement. But where
vision. Recommendations have been made there is no responsibility of that kind, and
for getting over this difficulty, and I say
where the whole question can, without very
at once that I am altogether opposed as a much discussion, beleft to the arbitramentof
general rule to the process of the referen- the people themselves, then, I say, we make
dun. I am altogether opposed to it cer-
easy this process of handing over the respon-
tainly in the case of a unified state, and I sibility of decision to the people themselves,
an opposed to it in the case of this con-
and take it from the shoulders of their re-
stitution if there were any other way out presentatives, who ought to discharge that
of the difficulty. I am opposed to it for duty. It is for that reason that I should be
this reason—I state my grounds of oppo- altogether opposed to the immediate appli-
sition now, in order to emphasise my appro- cation of this process of the referendum.
val of the suggestion which I will make Now, I was very much struck by the sug-
hereafter: that it relieves the represen- gestion, at the beginning of this debate, of
tatires of the people from that respon-
Mr. McMillan, which seems to me to con-
sibility of the discussion and the com- tain the gerins of a settlement of this mat-
parison of views, and the give and take ter-at all events, so far as my view is
of compromise, which are necessary in
concerned. I have said that I am strongly
all legislation. I say that in all legisla- opposed to the referendum for the reasons
tion it is for the benefit of the community I have pointed out, if any other mode of
that there should be difficulties placed in settlement can be adopted. I do not see
[The IIon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
577
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that any other mode can be adopted but views they hold upon the particular ques-
an application of the referendum. But I tion at issue. In the case of the referendum
think means should be taken to insure, it may be the interest of the government
before its application, a certain amount of who are supporting or proposing a par-
discussion under that sense of responsi- ticular view ; it may be the interest of
bility which a dissolution entails, and which some few members who are opposing that
is necessary before the settlement of any particular view, to represent the opposite
question upon a proper basis. Therefore, case to the people; but there is no inter-
I say that if you provide that, before the est in any one to give the same explana-
referendum takes place, there should be a tion, or to provoke the same discussion
dissolution—if you like, of both houses at upon the question at issue in the case of
the same time; that being, I think, Mr. a referendum, as there is in the case of
Holder's view that there should be a dis- a dissolution; so that you would have,
solution of the two houses, whether at the first of all, in the dissolution the question
same time or at different periods, it would thoroughly explained, and beyond all that,
insure that before the referendum was ap- you might be quite certain that the disso-
plied there would be the fullest and freest. lution either of the senate or of the house
discussion in the community. Every means of representatives would not take place
would be taken to ascertain whether the until every available means of arriving
opinion of the community could be ascer- at a settlement had been tried and had
tained without taking a referendum ; and
failed.
when all these measures have been adopted The Hon. J. H. GORDON : It would be
and have been found ineffectual, then, and a dissolution of state rights !
then only, would you resort to this final The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
.
member need not be afraid of my shirking
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: What be- the question. He says that there would be
comes of the individuality of the states in a dissolution of state rights. That is put-
that case?
ting in another form the proposition he
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The effect stated concisely before — that, as regards
of a dissolution before the referendum any matter within the scope of the federa-
would be this: in the first place, as my tion, the application of the proposed relief
hon. and learned friend, Mr. Wise, re- means unification. I say that, in the last
minds me, there would be an education of resort, it does mean unification, as far as
the people upon the particular question at the settlement of the particular question
issue, and upon the views held by the senate is concerned.
and by the house of representatives, and
"The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Sensible men
that would meet one of the dangers and do not struggle when the last resort is
one of the difficulties of the referendum
assured!
itself. One of the difficulties of the refer- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Although
endum is that not only is it a difficult the hon. member put the case concisely in
matter for the people to decide a question; that way, he will pardon me if I say that
but that often they have not before them he put the proposition somewhat extrava-
the means of deciding it. In the case of gantly, and for this reason : Supposing you
a general election it is necessary that can- are brought to the position of things that
didates should go about the country in I have indicated, in which there is an ab-
their own interests, in the interests of solute impossibility of coming to a decision
their own candidature, explaining fully the upon some question of vital importance-
means.
578
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
there being an absolute impossibility of munity, upon whose will, and subject to
appeal to any authority which can settle whose judgment, the whole business of ad-
the question--
ministration and government is carried on
An HON. MEMBER: Let it wait !
in a free community. I say to the hon.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Suppos- member, therefore, that although in case
ing it will not wait? There are often ques-
of this ultimate remedy having to be ap-
tions which will not wait. Suppose that plied, there might be unification, it never
is the case, you would then be put in this would be applied so long as by a process
position : that a population representing, of reason and compromise, and the exercise
perhaps, the voters and taxpayers of three- of that aptitude for self-government which
fourths of the commonwealth, would have would exist in this commonwealth as in
to wait until it suited the views of the re- all similar communities, a settlement could
maining quarter of the voters and tax- be arrived at—until every other means
payers to come round to a particular deci- had been tried and had failed. It would
sion. I say that if you are brought face not be until then that this ultimate remedy
to face with that position there must be
in the constitution would be resorted to.
some decision, or the union cannot possibly The Hon. J. H. GORDON : And federa.
remain. It cannot be that in a question tion extinguished !
of the most vital importance to the whole The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: When
of these communities three-fourths of the the hon. member remembers that, in the
voters or taxpayers of Australia will ordinary working of the constitution, the
stand quietly by to be dominated by the senate, representing the states, has equal-
votes and opinions of one-fourth. I admit ity of representation ; when he remembers
frankly to my hon. friend, that in the last what the powers of the senate are; when
resort the proposal does mean, if a vote he remembers that the process by which
has to be taken, unification; but I would the house of representatives is to be elected
point out this to him—that in any case of secures that there shall be always a certain
the application of any of the powers of the proportion between the number of the
constitution you might be brought to an senate and the number of the house of re-
extraordinary state of things if they were presentatives, I say that for the ordinary
used unduly, unreasonably, and improperly. working of the constitution, with the power
It is in the power of the upper house of any in the hands of the states as exercised in
of our colonies to refuse bill after bill sent the senate, that is quite sufficient, under
up to it by the Assembly. It is absolutely all circumstances, to preserve in every pos-
within the power of the governor to refuse sible way the rights of the states. If you
to assent to measure after measure as are brought face to face with the condition
passed by both houses of parliament. There of things I have described, then it means
is nothing to compel him to give the assent. either that you must adopt the principle
What is it, in the face of these theoretical of unification, or you must run a very
powers, which keeps the constitution work- great risk of the union being dissolved.
ing? What is it that enables constitutional Although I have a strong objection to any
government to be carried on? It is that it such process as the referendum, which I
is worked by persons capable of self-go. have always opposed in its application to a
vernment, who have before them one in- unified state, it is because I wish to see a
terest, the interest of the whole community, successful federation, it is because I wish
who have continually upon them the pres- to see federation carried, it is because I
sure of public opinion of the whole com- wish to see this constitution launched in a
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
579
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australico Bill.
way which will not only be complete on
Mr. HIGGINS : There can be stumping
paper, but which will work in considera- on both sides !
tion of all the forces brought to bear upon The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
it, and which it must develop in itself—it I have no doubt whatever what the result
is for these reasons that I have come to will be in the colony from which I come.
the conclusion that we must adopt some It may be considered a matter of minor
such method as I have suggested, and importance, but I take upon myself to say
which, while not interfering with the that I have done all I could in this con-
strength and the individuality of the states vention for the purpose of securing a
under ordinary circumstances, will place scheme acceptable not only to the colony
somewhere in the constitution a power, from which I come, but to Australia gene-
and the only power, which will prevent rally, and I ask that there may be sone
ultimate disunion instead of union.
thing in the shape of reciprocity towards
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON the state which I have the peculiar privi-
(South Australia) [2:52] : I understood lege of representing here to-day. I do not
we came here for the purpose of framing a think there is a great probability of dead-
federal constitution, and not a constitution lock. So far as we have gone we have
which provided for the unification of the framed a constitution of which we have
Australian nation, at the sweet will and very good reason to be proud-the most
pleasure of either of the contracting parties. democratic federal constitution that has
We have been told now that such is not ever been presented to the acceptance of
the case.
The draft constitution has been a free and enlightened country. Now, the
before us time after time, and now, at the question arises : have we left it in this state
last moment, we are told deliberately, by that it is necessary to make some such arti-
a representative of New South Wales, Mr. ficial provision for deadlock as is now sug-
O'Connor, that he thinks it essential to gested, to give, as it seems to me, to one
the establishment of a scheme of this sort party to the federation, the nation, the right
that the deliberately expressed opinion of of overriding the deliberately expressed
the states, through their representatives, will of the states in a matter in which they
should be set at nought at the desire of have a right to speak ? Something has
the house of representatives and those been said by my hon. friend, Mr. Holder,
whom it represents.
in regard to the propriety of giving this
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Wiped out! right to the nation in matters in which
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: state interests are not concerned. I do not
Wiped out entirely. All I can say is, and know how you can possibly draw the line
I think, in a matter of this sort, we ought of demarcation between the two things. If
to speak plainly, that I am against that. I did, I should only be too delighted to
I am against that in every shape and form. provide that where state interests were
I shall not only be found recording my not concerned the state should not have a
vote against it here ; but I take, at this right to obstruct the will of the nation.
moment, the responsibility of saying—and But I cannot do it. The most we can do
I am bound to do it in fairness to those is this : to confide to the care of the fed-
whom I represent-that, if that scheme is eration those matters which can be best
carried, I will take the responsibility of managed by the federation in the interests
stumping the country in South Australia of the nation, and of the states combined,
-throughout the length and breadth of and to leave other matters to the states
the land—to secure its rejection.
themselves. Federation means practically
1
580 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
government and legislation by agreement house of representatives are faithfully re-
between the representatives of the nation presenting their constituents, or the sena-
and of the states, sitting of course in dif- tors are faithfully representing theirs, may
ferent chambers. Is it likely that there be solved by the vote of the people them-
will be a clashing between the states and selves. As to the present provision, in
the nation ? I do not think so. I think which the power of dissolution is given
it is highly improbable, when we recollect simply in the case of the house of repre-
that the states and the nation will be prac- sentatives, I think it altogether objection-
tically the same, that the franchise will be able, and I trust that the senators will be
the same, and that the houses in which made equally amenable to the control of
these two bodies are represented differ the constituencies by the extension of the
only in this, that they vote in different power of dissolution to the senate. Why,
groups.
I ask, should the senate be free from the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why equal control of their constituents ? They have
representation, if that argument is right? a right to speak, and they have only a
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : right to speak, in the interests and as the
Have we not discussed and settled that mouthpiece of their constituents, and if
over and over again? Is it necessary to the question arises as to which house is
raise the question here? I think, if I re- representing the voice of the people, surely
collect rightly, my hon. friend, Mr. Isaacs, it is a right and proper thing to send the
only a day or two ago was found voting in senators to their constituents equally with
favour of equal representation. No doubt the house of representatives. Therefore I
he justified his action in his own mind shall welcome any proposition of the char-
when he gave that vote, and I have heard acter which I suggest. I would go further.
nothing since to lead me to the conclusion If that is not enough, I am prepared to
that he had any doubt whatever. The vote for a provision securing a referendum
constituents of both chambers are practi- to the constituencies of both houses on the
cally the same, but there is a possibility precise question at issue. We know full
that the representatives in one or other well that elections are often clouded by a
of these two chambers may not faithfully variety of considerations other than the
represent the wishes of their constituents. merits of the question directly at issue-per-
This seems to me the sole source from sonal considerations, local considerations,
which there is any fear of a deadlock. I this, that, and the other—but if you refer a
am quite prepared to make every provi- matter in so many words either for accept-
sion with regard to that. I think it is ance or for rejection by the constituencies,
intolerable that the house of representa- then it seems to me that you cannot fail
tives, representative of the entire nation, to get a free and intelligent declaration of
should be subjected to a control by their the opinion of the people on the subject.
constituents from which the senate is ab- You will thus prevent the possibility of
solutely free. Why should this be so? representatives in either one house or the
Under those circumstances, I am prepared other, by disregard of their constituencies,
to vote for a double dissolution, for a pro- securing anything in the shape of a dead-
vision that will enable the senators to be lock, because the constituencies are so much
sent to their constituents at the same time alike that, if you see that representation
that the members of the house of repre- is given to their views, which are so
sentatives are sent to their constituents, closely identical, nothing in the shape of a
in order that the doubt as to whether the deadlock is likely to occur.
The fear of
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
581
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
dissolution will have a most wholesome frame a constitution worthy of a federated
effect on those who give their votes in con- Australia to think what is the full effect
nection with the matter. The result of the of the remarks of our hon. and learned
dissolution will probably solve any doubts friend, Mr. O'Connor, and then they must
on the subject. If you want anything see that if we go back to constitutional
more you can get it in the shape of the lines such as he suggested we go back to
reference I suggest.
a constitution which is altogether different
The Hon. S. FRASER : But that might from that which it was intended we should
not solve the difficulty after all !
frame, and which Australia generally will
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I have nothing whatever to do with.
am prepared to go to the length to which The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria) [3•4]:
I refer. What more do you want in a It would be impossible to disregard either
federal form of government? I can quite the arguments or the attitude of the right
understand what you want in a unified hon. gentleman who has just resumed his
form of government, but we want no seat; and those who have followed his path
unified form of government. We are here in connection with the discussion of this
under distinct statutory authority to measure must be free to admit that he has
frame a federal constitution, and I will proved himself on every occasion free from
be no party to departing from what seems any merely narrow or partisan view of any
to me to be the first principle of a federal question submitted for consideration. I.
form of government—that there shall be know of no position taken up by any hon.
representation and agreement in all in- member at the Adelaide Convention more
terests of federal concern, but that
but that distinguished than that which the right hon.
neither one shall be able to override the gentleman occupied during the memorable
other. If, it is said, by those means you debates at that sitting of the Convention
cannot get agreement, or that you can- when the issue of state rights against
not get a majority in favour of the pro- national principle was submitted. Conse-
posed bill, what are you to do? Whilst I quently, the right hon. member speaks to
an not in favour of delay, I deprecate us to-day with added force and without
anything in the shape of undue haste, and the necessity of any adventitious addition
it seems to me that, much as you may de- to his remarks in the way of indication of
sire to have a complete solution of the
possible attitude hereafter. I take it that
question at issue, if you find, after the dis- although the right hon. member speaks
solution and after the referendum, that the positively, and with perfect sincerity, he
states and the people are still at issue, and would not have us suppose that his mind
that a majority in both cannot be obtained is closed against argument, or that if a
for the suggested legislation, your best reasonable scheme, conserving all those
course is to wait. I have no doubt what- rights for which he is so jealous an advo-
ever that in due time those parties—they cate, be submitted to him, he will yet be
are not divided in the natural order of precluded from reconsidering some parts,
things by any strong antagonistic lines; at all events, of the argument which he
they are the same people inhabiting the
has laid before us. I am inclined, for my
same Australia, although living in different
own part, to agree with him, and to dis-
states will be able to work out their own agree in a very slight measure from my
salvation in these matters in the future as hon. and learned friend, Mr. O'Connor,
they have in the past. I do ask those who and the hon. member, Mr. Holder, in the
have been so untiring in their efforts to assumption that conflicts between the two
582
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
1
1
houses are likely to be more frequent under the broadest franchise. Representing the
the proposed constitution than they have people in every sense of the term, that
been in our state legislatures.
chamber will be a far more formidable op-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I did not ponent of the chamber of representatives
say, or intend to say, that they would be than any legislative council could possibly
more frequent—I did not offer any opinion be.
be. Under this constitution we are creat-
at all upon that point. What I did say ing on the one side a senate and on the
was that they would be less soluble. other side a house of representatives with
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Exactly. I am, its executive-and the executive is the
therefore, happy to be, as I am generally, in important element in most of these con-
agreement with the hon. and learned nem- siderations. We are creating in these two
ber, instead of differing from him even on chambers, under our form of government,
so minor a point. It appears to me that, what you may term an irresistible force
based as they are on the same franchise, on the one side, and what may prove to
the possibility of grave differences occur- be an immovable object on the other side,
ing between the two houses is very much and the problem of what might happen if
diminished. There is far less likelihood these two were brought into contact
of serious conflict between the two cham- Mr. McMILLAN : How could they ?
bers of the federal legislature than between The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The hon. gen-
the two chambers of our states legislatures, tleman sees the point. The problem of
which are always far more separated in what might happen if those two forces
the matter of franchise than these two were brought into conflict is one that I
chambers will be. Receiving their man- will leave to some gentleman from his
date, deriving their authority from the same sagacious country to solve. It is there-
franchise, although not exactly in the same fore not because of the possibility of fre-
numerical proportion, the two chambers, quent deadlocks that I attach in:portance
it appears to me, must necessarily, on all to this provision-on the contrary, the
major questions, be brought into line in a possibility of deadlocks appears to me to
shorter period of time than we can expect be very remote—but it is on account of
our houses of legislature in the different their gravity when they do occur, and the
colonies to be brought into line. While impossibility of solving them, that renders
this may well relieve our anxiety when we it imperative that we should seek to depise
regard the proposals for the various means some means by which their severity may
of settling difficulties, when they do arise, be mitigated and a constitutional agree-
if ever they do, it need not lead us to the ment arrived at. Let us look for one
conclusion that, because it appears ex- moment at the various solutions which
tremely unlikely that grave difficulties will have been submitted to us and look at
ever or often arise, we are therefore relieved them first from the important standpoint
from the necessity of making such a pro- of their sufficiency. The right hon, mem-
vision. As the hon. and learned member, ber, Mr. Kingston, in what must be to
Mr. O'Connor, pointed out, we must take him an unfamiliar tone, and following an
into account the different quality of these unfamiliar patb, was led to express the
two houses, and the enormously greater opinion that a little delay was at times
power of resistance we are giving to the a very useful factor in political settle-
second chamber in this federal constitu- ments, and even to at last ask the ques.
tion, far greater than any second chamber tion, "Why, if there be a difficulty,
possesses in our several colonies. It is on should not the difficulty remain? Why
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
583
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
.
should we be compelled to find a solution merit which surely none of us would pass
for it in this constitution ? "
by lightly, because it is one not to be dis-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I said regarded; it is a claim which being granted
that the people should be allowed to work as it should be, must weigh greatly with
out their own salvation !
all of us.
Let hon, members take every
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes ; but other proposition which has been sub-
they may do it at the expense of the salva- mitted to us, and I think it will be granted
tion of the great interests of the country, that not one of them provides, either in the
and that the right hon. member will agree same mannerordegree, for absolute finality.
with me is not desirable. What we seek Take your double dissolution. It may
to attain in this Convention—and if we settle the difficulty and it may not. Take
cannot attain it absolutely we desire to the referendum, counting both by states
secure the nearest approach to it-is and by numbers, which the right hon, mem-
finality. This, as the right hon. member ber, Mr. Kingston, is prepared to accept as
knows, is absolutely essential under any a last resort.
constitution. If one could imagine the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : The
possibility—and one can scarcely conceive double majority of the states and of the
it-no one could contentedly survey the nation !
prospect of two houses in perpetual conflict The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Quite so.
upon serious questions of public policy. That, as the right hon. member sees, does
The position, as the right hon. member not provide for finality under all condi-
knows, would be intolerable. Some solu- tions. It might leave you with the vote
tion of their disputes is to be sought, and of the states on the one side and of the
the right hon: member will admit that the people on the other. In this connection I
ncarer it approaches to a final and satis- welcome as a truly federal suggestion the
factory solution the better. The great, and proposal of the hon. member, Mr. Gordon,
practically the overwhelming, argument of that if the numbers of the states should
finality is in favour of the application of chance to be equal, the numerical majority
the referendum on the lines suggested by of the people might have sway.
That is a
the hon. member, Mr. Holder--with whose proposal which, I trust, will receive the
utterances I am fortunate enough to find attention of his hon. colleague, the Premier
myself in agreement, and doubly happy in of South Australia. But these proposals
recognising the federal spirit in South Aus- for meeting deadlocks, while they would
tralia, which, when it deprives us of one meet and dispose of most deadlocks, do not
valuable auxiliary in the person of its Pre- and cannot be alleged to dispose of all
mier, gives us another almost fit to take his possibility of what I might term a perma-
place the contention of the hon. member, nent deadlock. They do not provide that
Mr. Holder, when he submitted that, at all certainty of finality which the national
events, his proposal for a referendum pro. referendum secures. Consequently, if for
vides us with absolute finality, was surely any reason we are compelled to accept one
unanswerable. It would settle the ques- of these less perfect proposals, the right
tion in accordance with the will of the hon, member will admit that at the very
majority, and upon constitutional lines. outset we are embodying a safeguard in
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: But with the the measure which, under some circum-
death of the states !
stances, must fail to have effect. I do not
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That it gives say that this is an unanswerable objection;
finality is its most conspicuous merit, a but it is an objection which should be taken
584
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
into consideration. Where the hon. mem- there is no case in which the political line
ber, Mr. Gordon, and the right hon. mem- has been drawn between the less populous
ber, Mr. Kingston, approach this subject and the more populous states.
from a standpoint which commits them The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Because the
to many mistakes is in adopting that whole machine is held in check by party
continual assumption which I am alnıost government !
ashamed again to combat, that difficulties The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes; and that
will often arise in the federal parliament supports my argument. This machine will
between the states as states. I would once be held in check by party government.
more submit, putting forward the argu- The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We do not
ment again with apologies, that the conten- desire party government as it exists in
tions in the senate or out of it, and especi- America !
ally any contention between the two houses, The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I cannot say
will not and cannot arise upon questions what the hon. member desires; but unless
in regard to which states will be ranked hie embodies his desires in this bill, they
against states. As was pointed out by the will have no effect upon the constitution.
hon. member, Mr. O'Connor, in the United Whether he desires it or not, it is cer-
States, and also in Switzerland, and in tain that once this constitution is framed,
Canada, as here, the whole of the states it will be followed by the creation of two
will be divided into two parties. Contests great national parties. Every state, every
between the two houses will only arise when district, and every municipality, will sooner
one party is in possession of a majority in or later be divided on the great ground of
the one cbamber, and the other in the pos- principle, when principles emerge.
session of a majority in the other chamber. The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It is not
We have had it submitted to us that prob- principle which is the line of demarcation
ably the senate will be the more radical in America !
house of the two. I am willing to accept
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Of course the
that suggestion for the purposes of my hon. member is free to his opinion; but
argument, though the argument is equally there are broad lines of demarcation be-
good either way. The house of representa- tween the Democratic and Republican par-
tives would then be the more conservative ties in America, and the numerous quota-
body, and it is possible that a more conser- tions of American precedents which have
vative party in the house of representatives been made prove it. The hon. member has
would be confronted by a moreradical party himself adopted the doctrine as to state
in the senate. In both cases the result rights of one party in American politics,
after a dissolution would be the same. The and many of us have adopted the doctrine
men returned as radicals would vote as of the other party; which disproves his
radicals; the men returned as conservatives contention that there are no principles in
would vote as conservatives. The contest American politics. There are principles in
will not be, never has been, and cannot be, American politics, and they are a govern-
between states and states. It must be and ing force, though I am willing to admit
will be between the representatives of the that, owing to their party machinery, these
states according to the different political principles have a less certain application
principles upon which they are returned. than under our form of government. The
In the United States of America, where hon. member's objection was that party
they have equal representation, as Mr. government would not exist in the future
Bryce reminds us and as history proves,
federated Australia,
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
585
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Not as it on what is known as a ticket. In spite of
exists in America !
that circumstance, note the great differ-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not as it ences of opinion between the members of
exists in America ; but it will exist in the those delegations. As forsupposing that the
commonwealth, as it exists to-day in New Victorian population will vote as a whole
South Wales, in Victoria, in Tasmania, in on any of the party questions that can be
South Australia, and in the mother coun- submitted to them, it is such a halcyon con-
try. Our system, even more than the dition of affairs that it cannot be dreamed
American system, implies government by of by anybody who has lived in Victoria.
party. It is an important fact that we The whole community is so divided that
propose to adopt in this federal constitution party spirit sometimes runs to an extreme,
the same form of responsible government and one party and another will even en-
that we employ in these colonies. That danger great public objects to gain their
in itself is a guarantee that party govern- own ends. I make no exceptions. I believe
ment must be introduced here. It makes party spirit is just as keen in other colo-
party government, if it be only the parties nies. The division of our electors into
of the “ins " and the "outs,” an absolute liberals and conservatives exists, as the
necessity in federated Australia. I apolo- hon. member, Mr. Synion, says, in every
gise for elaborating this part of my subject small colony. What does it prove? It
to such an extent, but it is my main con- certainly does not prove that under the re-
tention, the key of the whole. If what I ferendum the large populations would over-
contend be true, and I believe most firmly whelm the small populations. It proves
it is true, this conception of the larger that this can never be the case on any issue
states combining against the smaller states submitted. The question remitted to the
in the senate, or of the smaller states being referendum will divide the votes in every
coerced under a referendum by the larger state, and the side which will win will be
states, is a mistaken apprehension. It is that side which has the greater number of
not in the least degree a question as to
adherents in the group.
where the population is. It is a question
The Hon. N. J. BROWN : Will not that
how the population will be politically affect the elections in the same way ?
divided. We can set aside entirely the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Exactly. I
dread about the effect of the referendum have been endeavouring to contend so.
being the voting down of the small states. An Hon. MEMBER : Then you do not
Such a prospect is absolutely inconceivable. want the referendum !
Is the whole of the Victorian delegation The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If the argu-
on these benches, on this question or any ment is good it must apply both ways. I
other, except one or two leading issues, am now dealing with the case put by the
anything like solid ?
hon, members, Mr. Symon and Mr. Gor-
Mr. ŠYMON : It is just the same with don. They say that the small states will
the smaller states !
be voted down by the referendum. I am
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Quite so. showing that it is inconceivable, and that
Mr. SYMON: Then there is no need for the party which will win is the party which
a referendum !
will have most voters in the federation in
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will deal favour of a particular view of the ques-
with that afterwards. The Victorian dele- tion submitted. It will not be a state ques-
gation, and, I believe, the New South tion in any sense of the word, and it can-
Wales delegation, were practically elected not be. All the states will be divided
2 s
586 Commonwealth of [15 SÉPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
according to the opinions of their citizens
seven subjects, but, indisputably, the great
without regard to the size of the states. bulk of them are subjects on which no qués-
The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston very fairly tion of state rights and state interests could
said that he recogpised the 'weakness of arise except by the merest accident. It is, as
his own proposal in one respect, because the right hon. gentleman admitted, a grave
he admitted that there were certain ques- defect in our constitution if wepermit these
tions likely to become matters of dispute questions to be left for all time to be de-
between the two houses which were not termined in a purely states house, or by a
state questions.
state referendum, when those questions are
Mr. SYM0N: No!
not state questions—when they ought to be
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will put it decided, not on state lines, but on national
in a more modified forna : He said there lines, and by a national referendum.
weré certain questions which might pos- The Hon. J.. H. GORDON : The hon.
sibly become questions of dispute between member assumes that the senate would
the two chambers, which would be national disregard its clear duty and deal with those
questions, and should be settled on national questions on state lines !
lines, but which he thought it necessary to
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I am taking
insist should be settled not on national the argument of the right hon. gentleman
lines but on state lines, because he saw no as a good argument. I think it is. I look
way of dividing those issues one from the at the thirty-seven powers proposed to be
other. Now I turn to the clause which conferred on the future federal parliament.
gives the commonwealth its powers, and I My challenge is that those who hold a con-
find included among them : census, statis- trary opinion, and who believe that any of
tics, currency, banking, insurance, weights those thirty-seven powers are likely to
and measures, bills of exchange, bank- involve state rights and state interests,
ruptcy, copyrights and patents, naturali- should prove that such is the case. It will
sation, foreign corporations, marriage and take them all their time to do so.
divorce. I ask myself what possible ground The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Take No. 31!
can there be for contending that these The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is the
involve state rights.
control and navigation of the river Murray,
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The hon. one of those special questions on which a
member is omitting the power of taxation! particular state right is involved. I am
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I take the sub- not discussing them now; but I, for one,
jects as they come. I do not say that there would not have the slightest objection to
are not others which may hold a dual posi- exclude No. 31 from the operation of the
tion.' But I take these powers as they follow.
national referendum. But the hon. mem-
The Hon: J. H. GORDON: Those are com- ber will find that, with the exception of
paratively innocuous. Take some others ! some two or three subjects out of the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If the hon. whole thirty-seven allotted to the federal
member admits that, he supports my case, parliament, there is no possibility of con-
because those are typical of the great bulk flict between the state and the nation. Yet,
of the subjects.
in order to maintain these, he will sacri-
An Hon. MEMBER : No!
fice what he confesses should be granted,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I say the that is, the national control over thirty-
great bulk of them are of that character, three or thirty-four questions.
and am open to refutation if I am wrong, The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I make no
I should say that the whole of the thirty- such exception !
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
587
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
you choose !
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That was the pointing out in the first instance marks an
contention of the right hon. the Premier immense distinction, which cannot be lost
of South Australia.
sight of. A deadlock in the United States.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: NO!
can be safely left to burn itself out.
The Hon. A, DEAKIN:I agree so cordi- An Hon. MEMBER : You may make the
ally with a great many of the remarks of American Constitution prove anything
the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor, with re-
ference to the conditions under which the The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I am endeav-
reference to the popular vote should be ouring to show that it will not prove what
safeguarded that I do not propose to detain some of the hón. member's friends are
the Convention by repeating them. The attempting to prove.
referendum is always a last resort. I do, An Hon. MEMBER : Why not?
however, say that with regard to the pre- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: In America
cedents which are being cited, not only with the ministry sits apart. It is appointed for
respect to the United States, but with re- a fixed term, and disputes between the two
spect to Switzerland, and other federations, houses in the United States have no effect
we have always to remember not only that on the executive government.
party lines will be the governing lines of our The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : What is the
politics, but that the existence of an execu- hon. and learned member citing the case of
tive dependenton the willof parliament, and America for then ?
not holding office for a fixed term, reverses
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Because those
the significance of many of the precedents who agree with my hon. friend have been
taken from the United States. It was asked citing it, and I disagree with their inter-
to-day what takes place when a difficulty pretations. I find that there is no analogy
arises between the two houses in the United between any Australian government and
States, and the hon. member, Mr. O'Connor,
the Government of the United States.
having asked that question, answered it.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : What govern-
He pointed out that those questions settled ment are you offering us ?
themselves. Why are they allowed to settle
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I understand
themselves in the United States on terms
that my hon. friend as President of the
on which we cannot hope to settle them
Legislative Council of Tasmania rules both
here? Because in the United States the
houses of parliament in that colony under
executive is removed from the conflict of
an absolute but benevolent despotism. I
have no desire to interfere with it as
the two chambers. It is absolutely indif-
ferent as an executive to the result of
long as he enjoys it. It seems to me that
the difference between responsible govern-
the conflict. A deadlock between the two
ment as we know it and the United States
houses in the United States can be allowed
Government tellsaltogether in favour of the
to settle itself, because there is no govern-
necessity of our insisting upon some solu-
ment responsible to parliament. But a
tion of deadlocks. If the executive govern-
deadlock under responsible government as ment of the day is, as it is with us, a party
we have it in Australia is an entirely to a deadlock, and it must be a party taking
different problem.
the side of the chamber in which it has a
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That is majority, its own fortunes are staked on the
against you !
issue, and instead of standing aside, as in
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Do not let the America, it throws into the scale the whole
hon. member attach too much weight to of its force and energy. It stakes its life on
that until I have finished. What I am carrying the struggle to a successful issue.
588
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer: Then you people out of it, call federal what they
prove that that is not the proper govern- prefer in the way of federation, and they
ment for the commonwealth !
instantly denounce as anti-federal that
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The hon. which does not fall in with their own
member
may follow that line if he likes, scheme. As far as I understand the
but that is the kind of government we are federations of this world, they have been
shaping and will have to deal with.
drawn on different lines, and with different
The Hon. R. E. O'Connor : Bryce principles embodied in them.
strongly supports what the hon. member The Hon. J. H. HOWE: We improve as
is saying now !
we go on!
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I believe he The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I hope so.
does, although I have forgotten the pass- The real point is whether there can be no
age.
A deadlock is a very much more unification in a federation. I submit that
a
serious struggle, is very much more em- there can, and that there ought to be.
bittered, and carries with it far greater Even our antagonists practically admit
consequences under our form of govern- that there can and that there ought to be.
ment than under their form of government. They admit that in the powers conferred
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: How does
on the federal government, there are a host
that help you?
of questions, like the question of patents,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That helps my and other questions, which have no rele-
argument that if deadlocks with us are so vancy as state questions, which are purely
much more serious than they can be in the national questions, which are included in
United States or Switzerland, we have this bill because they are national issues,
need for a special provision which clearly which ought to be dealt with only on
is not necessary in either the United States rational lines. That is to say, we are
or Switzerland. In Canada of course the unifying on those questions in this mea-
different mode of constituting the senate sure because unification is the proper step
renders the circumstances very different. to take, and because the natural and neces-
Neither of these three federations affords sary corollary of that unification is that
us any clue as to the necessity in our con- they should be decided, as far as possible,
stitution of a cure for deadlocks. Finally, as all questions of unification should be
I recur to the main point of the pithy decided, on national lines—by the rule of
address of my hon. and learned friend, the majority. I take it that the burden
Mr. Gordon, and of the very powerful rests upon my hon. friend to show that you
statement of the right hon. gentlenian who cannot have unification of our patent law
presides over the Government of South without injury to federation. I submit
Australia. That is, to say, that to grant that the very object of federation, so far as
this proposal for the ultimate solution of the patent law is concerned, is to have uni-
deadlocks by means of a national vote has fication. I might weary hon. members by
to be rejected because it is not federal, and citing power after power in clause 52 upon
because it means unification.
which unification is essential.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Be- The Hon. J. H. HOWE: The hon. mem-
cause it extinguishes state rights !
ber means uniformity!
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Because it The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Uniformity of
extinguishes state rights. I take leave to legislation means legislative unification.
waive aside the use of the word “federal.” The Hon. J. H. HOWE: It means unifi-
Each man in this Convention, and most cation of the states !
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
589
[15 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: What I say not trust the people of the larger colonies
is, that while there may be questions, and on these party questions to vote in accord-
a few questions, on which the safeguard to ance with their principles as they always
the states that the right hon. member, Mr. do in local politics? Why should they vote
Kingston, desires, can fairly be accorded, as liberals in local politics and suddenly
as regards the remainder of the powers the become conservatives in federal politics?
word “ federation” has no mcaning, unless It seems to me that if the hon. member will
it carries with it unification.
follow out his argument to its conclusion,
Tbe Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do not he will see that there is no state risk in this
agree with the hon. member!
matter, and that the rule of the majority
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If my hon. can be applied without injustice to any of
and learned friend follows out the prin- the smaller states or any part of their
ciple, which I heard him no later than population. If this leads to unification at
yesterday enunciate to this Convention, to all, it will only give us that unification
what appears to me to be its natural, I which is essential to the proper fulfilment
dare not say, its logical, conclusion, I of the federal principle.
think he will find that it points most in- Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [3.30]:
escapably to the admission of the fact that It has been said that there is a time to
on most of the questions on which we build up and a time to pull down. We
federate, what we want is unification. We have been engaged in the very great task,
only succeed so far as we obtain it. My hon. and a task to which we have devoted a
friend, Mr. Gordon, is also one of the trust- great deal of wisdom and prudence, of build-
the-parliament members, who have mani ing up. We have now reached a point at
fested their federal spirit. What is it that which, it seems to me, we are asked to
he fears in the vote of the more populous pull down a very considerable portion of
colonies on a whole host of these issues ? the splendid edifice we have been rearing.
The hon. member is a distinguished repre- My hon. friend who has just sat down says
sentative of the liberal party of South Aus- that what he wants to secure by the refer-
tralia, and on questions which are included endum is absolute finality. He will secure
in the powers of the commonwealth, when absolute finality. He will absolutely finish
they are dealt with on liberal lines, the hon. the smaller states of this continent and
member will have behind him the votes of destroy their identity in the constitution.
the liberals of New South Wales, Victoria, The answer to the contention which he
and every part of Australia. The only has urged with so much force in favour of
antagonism he will have to face will be the the referendum, or some form of refer-
antagonism of the conservative character endum, is that given by my hon. friend,
which he has in his own colony. What has Mr. O'Connor, that it means, in the ulti-
he to fear on these subjects on which unifi- mate resort, unification. If we are to have
cation is sought and obtained in this bill, unification in the ultimate resort, or at any
even from the national referendum which he period of this so-called federal system, we
terms themass vote of the whole of the elec-
may just as well have it first as last.
tors ? He knows the politics of the other That is what the whole of the argument
colonies, if not as well as his own, suffi- comes to. We are diverging from the path
ciently well to know that they move much which we have been asked to follow in
on the same lines as his own. Will henot connection with the framing of this Com-
then apply his own argument of trust the monwealth Bill ; we are at the parting of
people on this particular issue? Why will he the ways; we are in the position now of
590
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
having had an instalment of what, on Mr. SYMON :I am delighted with that
paper, looks like federation; and we are suggestion, and for that reason I give
asked to give all that up in order to accept him the stimulus—the innocuous stimulus
in the ultimate resort that is the qualifi- of the lines which have been called to my
cation-unification. All I can say is that memory. But that is by the way only. I
if the members of this Convention are pre- regret that my hon. friend, Mr. Gordon,
pared to accept unification at any stage was not proof, as strongly proof as he ought
the sooner we do it the better. If we are to have been, against the blandishments of
prepared to accept unification, then, I say, the hon. member, Mr. Holder. He yielded,
we had better--not pack up our portman- I think, just a little, and, if I may say so,
teaus--but
a little too much. He described
He described my hon.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON :
friend, Mr. Holder, as pointing a blunder-
An Hon. MEMBER:
buss at federal principles. My hon. friend
Mr. SYMON:I have received so many
himself pointed at the conclusion of his
suggestions that there is an embarrassment
speech, something like a Martini-Henry
of riches; and I scarcely know how to put
rifle at those very principles. He admitted
in words the amalgam to the Convention.
—and I think on consideration he probably
If the motive of the amendment in favour
will see that it is inconsistent with the views
of the referendumis, as candidly and frankly
he laid down—that in the event, certainly
confessed by Mr. O'Connor, then I say we
a very remote event, of there being a disso-
are here under falsepretences. Ourenabling lution of the two houses, the house of repre-
act says we are here to establish federa-
sentatives and the senáte—Iam not dealing
tion. If we are going to have recourse
now with the form of it, whether it shall be
either directly or indirectly, either primarily
in combination or succession---there might
or as a last resort, to unification, then we
be, after dissolution as proposed by the hon.
ought to dissolve this Convention and ask
member, Mr. Isaacs, a referendum to people
cur parliaments to frame another act to
and states; but if there was an equality
bring us together. If the hon. member, Mr.
of voting between the states, then my hon.
Gordon, felt a degree of alarm in conse-
friend would give way and allow it to be
quence of the spell which might be exer-
decided by the bulk of the population. I
cised by what he called the eloquence of
think on consideration my hon. friend will
our esteemed colleague, Mr. Holder, how
see that that rather gives away the posi-
much more alarmed should he feel from
tion, because the whole thing we are con-
the combined eloquence of my hon. friends,
tending for here—and I hope sincerely in
Mr. Holder and Mr. Deakin ? When my
the interests of the cause which all of us
hon. friend, Mr. Deakin, was addressing have at heart we shall carry—is that at
us, I was reminded of the lines :
no stage in the system we are seeking to
For he, by spells of glamour bright,
Could make a lady seem a knight,
establish shall the identity of the states
And cobwebs on a dungeon wall
and those who represent then be over-
Seem tapestry in lordly hall,
whelmed by the larger populations of the
And youth seem age, and age seem youth-
big communities. That is the point; and
And this is the consolation-
that is the point to which I should like,
All was delusion—Daught was truth.
very briefly, to direct the attention of the
I commend these lines to my hon. friend, Convention. I agree with all that has
Mr. Gordon.
been said by the hon. member, Mr. Deakin,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is of and by others who have preceded me, as
110 use; he is a teetotaller!
to the unlikelihood of what are called dead-
But
[Mr. Symon.
Commonweclth of [15 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill. :591
locks occurring ; and I sometimes think improbable, that anything of the sort will
that this mania for a referendum arises
occur; and I say, why insert in the federal
either from great timidity or from a strong constitution a provision at variance with
desire of domination. It seems to me and destructive of the federal idea, when
either the one or the other. That there there is no possible or conceivable likeli-
may be-as undoubtedly there will, be- hood of its ever being called into force ?
tween all legislative bodies—differences It seems to me to be opposed to the ordi-
and disputes; we all admit. None of us can nary dictates of common-sense to intro-
doubt for a moment that these differences duce so debatable, so questionable a con-
and disputes will arise; but a deadlock trivance--a contrivance with which we as
is, to my mind, a totally different thing. British subjects are not familiar-in order
Of course a deadlock requiring to be con- simply to gratify it may be a passing whim.
trolled by some artificial means is a mis- I think we had much better free ourselves
chievous thing. I cannot remember any- from the domination of this word dead-
thing in the nature of a deadlock-that is, lock," and merely look upon it as a matter
such a situation between the two houses as of difference and dispute between the two
practically amounts to, I might almost say, houses to which, in the ordinary course of
a condition of civil war. I did not speak things—as has happened over and over
earlier in this debate, because I waited in again-time, consideration, moderation, in-
the hope that someone would give us in- telligence, in addition to the ordinary force
stances. Is there any instance of a dead- of public opinion, will offer a solution. My
lock such as we have in mind under any hon. friend said a minute ago that the
system of responsible government?
American Constitution was different, that
An HON. MEMBER : No!
in America a dispute burnt itself out. I
Mr. SYMON: Is there any instance firmly believe that any dispute between
under the American Constitution ?
the two great houses we are going to estab-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is not lish on the finest basis ever imagined will
responsible government !
.burn itself out.
: Mr. SYMON : Of course my hon. friend
The Hon. E. BARTON: It will fizzle out !
will give me credit for knowing that the
Mr. SYMON: It will fizzle out. I will
American system is not a system of respon- gïve one reason in addition to th already
sible government. I ask, is there under re- urged. If you have a dissolution of the
sponsible government-a system which we senate upon any question as to which there
hope to establish, and in order to secure is a dispute between the two houses, you
which I would like to see everything intro- will gire time, or, to use the expressive
duced into this constitution which can pro- phrase of my hon. friend, you will permit
perly and fairly bring it about-any in- it to fizzle out, a state of things we should
stance of real deadlock ? . Is there any in-
all so much desire to see. To introduce
stance under the federal system of what has into the constitution needlessly, as it seems
been held up to us as a deadlock—that is, to me, a coercive power, will tend to make
not merely a difference of opinion, or a dis- the men to whom you, in the course of
pute between two houses, but something events, commit the executive power of the
which practically stops the civil govern- country, overbearing and unreasonable.
ment of the country? I am not aware of It will undoubtedly have that tendency.
any. Therefore, I accept the position put I do not mind, as I have said, something
with so much power by the hon. member,
to secure that both houses shall be in con-
Mr. Deakin, that it is unlikely, that it is stant contact with their own constituents
592
Australia Bill.
Coninionwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
and I desire to say a word or two with after that, you do not fall into line with
regard to the scheme which applies in our the senators from the larger states, or with
own colony. I do not follow my hon. those whose decisions are in harmony with
friend, Mr. Holder, when he says that those of the executive government of the
the method adopted in our colony shows day, we will bring the referendum into
the desirableness in a federation of some- operation, and we will smother your inde-
thing further. It has quite the opposite pendence by a block vote of the larger
effect. We have had now in our colony states of the commonwealth."
since 1882 a scheme under which, sur- Mr. TRENWITH : Either smother the in-
rounded with the necessary safeguards in dependence of the senate or the independ-
the event of a difference between the two ence of the people !
houses, the upper house may be dissolved. Mr. SYMON: Not at all. My hon.friend
So effective has that mechanism been, that is no greater friend of the power of the
it has not been called into operation in people than I am. I desire that the people
the fifteen years during which the act has should exercise their just influence in every
been upon our statute-book. If that be the respect, and I say that it is the duty of the
case in our unified system in the state, why representatives of the people in the senate
should it not have exactly the same effect and in the house of representatives to bow
under a federation ? If we want more to the will of the people. But there are
than that, it lies with the advocates of two peoples. There is the democracy of
those who say there should be something my state, and there is the democracy of
beyond to give us a very conclusive reason the commonwealth; and does my hon.
for it. Now the dissolution of the senate friend tell me that the democracy of the
is a proposal which, at any rate, will com- commonwealth-the combined force of two
mand the consent of people of ordinary big states or the single force of one-is to
common-sense. To dissolve the senate, coerce or tyrannise over the democracy I
under whatever conditions you establish represent? I decline to accept that position
it, is to send it back to its own constitu- for a moment. I feel that this question
ents. That is a principle of dissolution we
raises state interests as they have never
may understand; but, if you superadd to
been raised before, because equal represen-
that the referendum, you are overawing
tation in the senate was felt to be a neces-
the constituents of the senate by another sity of federation. If you establish a re-
body, another constituency, to which as ferendum, you rob equal representation of
state representatives they owe no allegi- all its strength and of all its virtue.
That is the position I take up. I
Mr. HIGGINS : You rob it of its poison !
say
that the senator would be a man of no Mr. SYMON: My hon. friend, who is
self-respect who would occupy a position always poisoning something or other, says
of that kind. You would fetter and gag that you poison it. It is an excellent ex-
him in his representation of the state he pression. To put equal representation into
comes from.
You would tell him : "It is the scales on one side and the referen.
true you may consider this matter vital to dum into the other side is to absolutely
the interests of your particular colony; outweigh equal representation and to pre-
you may support it by all the power you vent its having any weight or effect what
command ; you may be prepared to face a ever in the federal system we are seek-
dissolution of the senate and to go to your ing to create. I think it was my hon.
own constituency on the subject. It does friends, Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Holder,
not matter two straws what you do. If, who spoke of difficulties being put in the
.
ance.
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
593
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
way—that is to say, that before thereferen- expense on expense ; you are to harass the
dum is to be brought into operation you people in a way which I do not believe
are to have a great many stiles over which they would toleratė, if they understood it.
the democracy is to be called upon to jump. I do not believe the people of this country,
Now, that does not lessen the mischief of who most desire a referendum, would ac-
the referendum ; but if you are going to cept it if they thought it was to be first
introduce into this constitution a machine one dissolution, and then another dissolu-
which is to be made, so to speak, unwork- tion-first a dissolution of the people's
able, or which is to be so surrounded by house, then a dissolution of the states
conditions and obstacles so that it will not house, then a referendum to the people, or
be brought into operation, why on earth a double referendum, or something of that
are you going to put it there at all? Is kind—I say I do not believe they would
it not simply deluding the people of the stand it.
country? It is said that there ought to An Hon. MEMBER : And then an extra
be no fear, because the thing will not be dissolution !
brought into operation, as it will cost, one Mr. SYMON : Yes, and so we might
hon, member suggested, £50,000 each time go on for ever. Why, we are men of com-
itis applied. "It will cost," he said, “£50,000 mon-sense! The people of this country
to have a referendum. Do you think that are of English blood. They are reason-
any government would lightly, or, it may able beings; they are not like people of
be, at all, call that expensive instrument the continent of Europe amongst whoin
into operation. Therefore, accept it.” I say, it has been sought to transplant the Eng-
"No"; let us put into this constitution lish form of government. We know how
things which can, if needed, be brought into these things, many things, we cannot think
operation. Let us not tell the people of out, work themselves out, and I say this
this country, those of them who honestly will work itself out. But we are going
believe-and I admit there are many- back again to first principles. To intro-
that you ought to have some referendum, duce the referendum is to introduce a
because they believe in the domination of principle alien to the federal system which
the big populations, that they are getting we are creating. Another reason given-
what they ask when you believe it to be a and I only deal with it because it struck me
sham. If the people say, “We want this the moment it was put as one that might
referendum, because we believe in the lead to some confusion-is this, that not
ultimate domination of the majority of only was it not likely to be brought into
the people," then you are simply deluding force, but that it would not be brought
them, when you attach to what you offer into operation unless there was
them conditions which you say are going great conflict. We all know that if
to prevent it being brought into actual disputes between houses of parliament
working How is it to be commended to reached a stage, after successive dissolu-
us? If it is surrounded in that way, if it tions, when something of this kind was
is to have these walls erected in front of it, likely to have any operation, we should
so that the jump cannot be taken, then I be in a very parlous plight indeed. We
say "keep it out."
must also remember that men would be in
An Hon. MEMBER: You are to have a a condition of inflamed mind-their politi-
dissolution as well !
cal passions would be excited—and there
Mr. SYMON: And you are to have a would be a struggle amongst them for
dissolution as well. You are to pile up control and domination. Now, is that a
some
594
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 Sept., 1897.]
time to put a weapon of this kind, a sword and have done with it. Let us get it over.
of this sort, into the hands of people in I object to come under a system of go-
„such a condition of mind and such a con- vernment in which I am always going to
dition of passion ?
have this sword of revolution hanging over
The sight of means to do ill deeds makes ill my head. I do not think it is going to
deeds done.
be. The omens for this union are much
You have only to put this weapon into the happier than that. At any rate, I appeal
hands of a powerful government, a govern- to my hon. friends, whether they agree
ment that considers itself as resting, not with me or not, I offer no reproaches of
upon the just principles of equality be- any kind-there is a broad foundation
tween states, but resting upon what they upon which this contention may rest, as I
believe to be the clamour of a particular have admitted the domination of the
and more popular section of the com- large populations—and I appeal to my
niunity, and what might they not do? I hon. friends whether it is not true that if
am not very familiar with the ways and we were face to face with revolution, an
methods of politicians and statesmen in attempt to refer the question to the people
power who are driven to bay ; but I know of the larger states would not intensify
this : that any man who is driven to bay, that revolutionary feeling on the part of
or any man who wants to serve some strong
the smaller ones.
purpose of his own--and we hope the rulers
Mr. TRENWITH : It is proposed to refer
of this country will always be men of strong it to the people of all the states !
will and solid purpose—when they do want
Mr. SYMON: I know; but what does
to do that, you give them a weapon by which
it mean? It means that the smaller popu-
they are to wipe out—to use an expression lations, to whom you conceded—I use the
already used—the dissenting states alto-
word so as to be as moderate as possible
gether. I am not going to support anything equal representation in the senate, are
of that kind. My hon. friend, Mr. Holder,
not to have equal representation when it
said that the referendum would only be
comes to be voted as a matter of refer-
used when the alternative was revolution.
endum.
All I can say is : If we are on the brink
Mr. TRENWITH : Why should the divi-
of revolution, then a referendum to the
sion be by states ?
people, in order to coerce the smaller popu-
Mr. SYMON: We have made that
lations, will precipitate that revolution, and
division.
intensify the differences existing. There is
not a man who came from a smaller state
Mr. HIGGINS : Why should the ques-
who would stand idly by and submit to it. tions, which may arise to bring about
A question that would bring us face to face deadlocks, be only between states and
with revolution would only be one that
states ?
would affect the interests, indeed the ex- Mr. SYMON: My hon. friend means
istence or freedom, of the smaller states. It -why should the question be one between
is only such interests as those that would the states. I hope there will be no such
bring about such a condition of things. questions. I hope that the differences will
Mr. TRENWITH : A successful revolution be, if at all, as they are now, in the harm-
would mean the revolt of a majority against" less, though sometimes irritating, disputes
the power of a minority !
that take place between the two houses,
Mr. SYMON: The majorities my hon. and upon similar subjects to those which
friend has in view had better revolt now, have been alluded to with so much inter-
[Mr. Symon
n.
Commonwealth of
595
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
esting detail by my hon. friend, Mr. dum being adopted in America---and pos-
Deakin. But if the questions are not likely sibly it might be a solution of many of
to divide states from states, why do you the difficulties and troubles which afflict
want the referendum to coerce the smaller the process of government in the United
states ?
States. I could understand the referendum
Mr. TRENWITH: Not to coerce the states, being adopted there, because what happens
but to settle the question !
there is this : You have a president-an
Mr. SYMON: If the question in dis- irresponsible president-elected by the
pute is not one that is to divide the people, through their conventions, for a
states, surely if you send the senators back terni of four years. He may be in a posi-
to their own states, and they are brought tion of utter discord with both houses of
in touch with the people of their states, Congress for the whole four years. Subject
you get all you want? If I could see that
to the majority power, with which I need
this was to be limited to questions of mere not trouble hon. members, he may veto
social legislation, or many other matters their measures, he may hamper their legis-
that my hon. friend will remember much lation, he may hamper the administration
better than I could suggest them to him, they desire ; but there is no means what-
that would afford' a conclusive argament ever of bringing the President into touch
for ceasing the discussion of the referen- with the people, or of bringing the influ-
dum. You do not want it. It is only ence of the people to bear on the President
where the cleavage of states comes in that directly.
there is any necessity for overpowering The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Would not the
the less populous centres by the more referendum there equally apply to state
populous centres.
rights as it would in Australia ?
The Hon. S. FRASER :
Mr. SYMON : Undoubtedly it would.
Mr. SYMON: With great deference to I am dealing with the matter of respon-
my hon. friend's very large and wide ex- sible government, and I say that there is no
perience upon all these matters, if the bill place for the referendum under the system
in dispute is not one that divides the of responsible government. Subject to the
states from one another, I can see, even matter with which I have already dealt,
from his point of view, no hope whatever and to which I do not wish to go back,
in the referendum. If it is not a question there might be a place for it in a federal
that divides the states, but is some mere system like that of America, where some
matter of what I might call-if I may so crucial measure is supported by both houses
express it--municipal politics, then there of Congress, and where the President main-
is not likely to be any difference between tains an obstinate opposition to it.
the pressure which the states will bring The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They have their
upon their senators who are against a remedy !!
question of that kind than the pressure Mr. SYMON : They have a remedy, of
that would be exercised if you submitted course ; but I am not dealing with their
the question to a referendum of the entire remedy, which is a two-thirds vote. I say
people as one body. I have referred to that the referendum would not be incon-
a point which has been made in regard sistent with a system like that, in order to
to the referendum and responsible govern- bring the president into touch with the
ment. I say that the referendum is en- people. On the other hand, the President
tirely inconsistent with responsible govern- may be in absolute harmony with the people,
ment. I could understand the referen- and the two houses of Congress may be in
596
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.)
opposition to the will of the people. Some nation which we are about to create. It
question may suddenly arise, and then I is the house of representatives that will
could understand having the referendum to be the president, in point of fact, of this
bring the two houses of congress into har- united community; and if we are to have
mony with the people, and to prevent them a bi-cameral system at all, we want some
from using their two-thirds vote in order to sort of check on them not an ultimate
secure the passing of a law to which the pre- check. I do not think that hon, members
sident, backed up by the people, is opposed. pretend it is, or offer it as, an ultimate
But those are speculative questions with check on general legislation. I think that
which I do not propose to deal. All I it would be the bounden duty of the senate
suggest for the consideration of hon. mem- to offer resistance to the death to anything
bers is this: So far as I am aware, the like interference with state rights, but on
referendum cannot in principle co-exist general legislation they would not do so.
with any system of responsible govern- They would be a body of reasonable men,
ment, and if you give the referendum you
but their function would be none the less
weaken responsible government, and you
to exercise that check when called upon to
destroy what lies at the very foundation do it.
of it—the responsibility of the ministry Mr. TRENWITH : There is a difference be-
to the popular chamber; and this in itself, tween a check and an insuperable barrier!
as we intend to have it under this consti- The Hon. I. A ISAACS : Check and
tution, is a magnificent safeguard. I say checkmate !
that is a long stretch towards the refer- Mr. SYMON: Exactly. You have
endum which my hon, friends advocate, taken all the powers from the senate
because the ministry are responsible to the which put it in the position of being able
house of representatives. We have taken to checkmate, and I am sure that my hon.
pains in regard to the money portions of friend opposite, who is as reasonable and
this bill to secure, as far as possible, that as open to conviction as any man I ever
shall be the case, and having the min- met, will see that, at any rate, it is worthy
istry of the day in the people's house, we of consideration whether it is at all likely
have made a long stride; we have made a that on a subject of general legislation, as
vast concession in putting them in that to which alone it is contended the referen-
position for the purposes of the federal dum may be applied, there would be the
government. More than that, I venture slightest likelihood of a body of men such
to say that the referendum is neither re- as those who will hold a position in the
quired, nor is it consistent with the posi- senate on the same franchise as the other
tion in which we now stand. The only house—imposing an insuperable barrier
other remark I would make about the against the requirements of civil govern-
American Constitution is this: Of course · ment and of advancing progress. I my-
we are not called upon to imitate that self do not think they would. There is
or any other constitution, but we must only one other word that I should like to
remember this put so forcibly, I think, say. My hon. and learned friend, Mr.
by myhon.friend, Mr. McMillan, this morn- O'Connor, said that if the difference be-
ing—that the senate, under the American tween states is of such a serious character,
system, is a check on the president. Here the same public opinion that is in the
we have adopted responsible government. states will send back the same people, and
Under this system it is the house of repre- my hon. and learned friend added—and
sentatives that really will govern the
that establishes the difference between his
(Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
597
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
position and the one which the hon. mem- although we claim it as an absolute right
ber, Sir Grabam Berry, has so clearly put and having given it to us in that spirit we
to me in the course of the remarks I have
say to you, do not take it away from us
been making—my hon. and learned friend in
any indirect fashion. Do not“ keep the
contemplates that the only case in which word of promise to the ear and break it to
the referendum would apply would be the hope," for that will be the result of in-
where the conflict is between states. troducing this amendment with regard to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I did not the referendum. The federal system, as
say that it would apply, but that it would my hon. friend, Mr. McMillan, pointed out
be absolutely necessary!
this morning, is, no doubt, an artificial
Mr. SYMON: If my hon. friend con- system ; but artificial though it may be,
cedes that it is only when it would be it is the product of a highly cultivated
absolutely necessary—that it would apply, political intelligence. If we adopt the
that conclusively shows that these are cer- referendum we are absolutely reactionary.
tainly the cases in which it ought not to We are going back to something which
be applied. My hon. and learned friend may have had application and efficacy
admitted that it was unification.
in those archaic times to which the hon.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: As to these and learned member, Mr. Barton, alluded
questions !
with so much effect in the Adelaide
Mr. SYMON: It is unification of state session of the Convention ; but it is ab-
interests, which are the only interests to solutely inapplicable to the present con-
which it must necessarily be applied. If dition of things. It is wholly destructive
it is unification of state interests at that of the equality of representation which
stage it is worse than proportional repre-
we are to hold to in the fabric of our con-
sentation, because it is destructive of the stitution. I ask all hon. members at this
interests which it is our bounden duty to stage not to insist upon an amendment
conserve at all hazards. As I am reminded, which will make the whole business a
if it is unification on those great occasions, hideous unreality. You may succeed—I
it must equally be unification in principle do not know that you will not-in carry-
as to everything which can be the subject ing the amendment; but it will be the
of the referendum. I put it to my hon. most serious blow to federation yet struck.
friend, plagiarising for a moment an ex- “Shall it be love or hate, Jobn?" wrote
pression of which the hon. member, Mr. Russell Lowell. “It's you that's to de-
Higgins, has almost the monopoly, if that cide." It is you—the large colonies-
is not the logical conclusion of hisargument? who must decide, shall it or shall it not be
These, I think, are the main points which federation ? If you carry the amendment
are involved in this very serious question, be- —if you embody in the constitution the
cause to us it is serious in the last degree. principle of the referendum--I do not enry
· You have heard a declaration, Mr. Chair- you your retrospect in the days to come.
man, as to the course that will be taken I do not envy your triumph one atom. I
by one hon, member, and I think I may prefer, myself, the glory and the honor, as
say, speaking in sorrow and not in any I claim it to be, of having resisted it to the
spirit of threat or menace, it is the course very utmost of my power.
which may have to be taken by each one The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
You have given us a concession- Australia) [4:26]: I want to add a few
if you prefer to call it a concession we are words to the remarks which we have just
willing to accept it on your own phrase,, heard. Not that I feel called upon to
of us.
598 Commonwealth of (15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
apologise for speaking again upon this ber of the convention must and will weigh
question, because it is a matter of such well the vote which he proposes to give.
supreme moment to the colony which I There is no desire, I take it, on the part
represent, and to the other smaller colo- of
any
member of the Convention to place
nies, that I will speak a dozen times upon a stumbling-block in the path of federa-
it if necessary. I only want, however, to tion. The hon. member, Mr. Symon, says
add a few propositions, which are rather that if the amendment is carried it means
mathematical in their character, and which good-bye to federation, at any rate for the
will show the absolute monstrosity of the present. I direct attention to this remark
proposal now before us. In our internal because on a previous occasion when the
concerns we consider that a parliament hon. member, Mr. Higgins, and a few
elected under manhood suffrage is not more of us took a certain view upon an-
enough, and on this every colony agrees. other question, we heard from other bon.
No colony would have the least idea of members that if our view was taken
giving up its own government to the vote it would be good-bye to federation. I
of the bare majority. This is evidenced would direct attention to the very strong,
even in the districts which represent the brave, and ardent fight which the repre-
more popular house. Locality there is re- sentatives of the smaller states are making
cognised to have an importance superior for their position in the federal parliament.
to mere numbers.
We are establishing That fight commenced from the earliest
now a government superior to that of any inception of this question in Adelaide.
local government. We are giving it an Whenever the question of state rights is
authority far greater, and we are depriv- considered—and that is the question we
ing the local authority of its control over are dealing with now-we have the same
its most fertile source of revenue, that legal duel on the part of the individuals
is, the customs. We are giving the cen- favourable to the predominance of the
tral body power to levy direct taxation, smaller states. One thing I cannot con-
and it is proposed to establish it upon a
ceive is that the members of the Convention
basis which no colony would agree to in
who voted against proportional representa-
relation to its own concerns, though they
tion will now vote to take away the power
are less important. True, the two houses of the senate by means of the referendum.
of the federal legislature are to be elected
The words that have fallen from hon, mem-
on the same popular basis; but the analogy bers, especially from the hon. member, Mr.
should, nevertheless, be preserved, and is Gordon, have sunk deeply into my mind.
preserved in the bill as it stands. It is Those were : that, if this proposition were
true that there is no property qualification; carried, you would destroy absolutely the
but there is a state qualification which power of the senate to thwart the repre-
really takes its place.
The senate repre-
sentatives of the people.
sents the property and the people of each
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I did not say
state; the house of representatives repre-
that!
sentsthe people of the whole commonwealth. Mr. LYNE: Not, perhaps, in the same
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [4.28]: words; but he said, in effect, if you take
After the solemn warning which we re- away the power of the senate to thwart, at
ceived a few minutes since from the hon. any rate, the house of representatives, to
member, Mr. Symon, as to what the effect successfully oppose the house of repre.
of carrying the proposition under dis- sentatives; and that must be to success-
cussion would be, I think that every mem- fully thwart the whole of the people.
[The Hon. Sir J. TV. Downer.
Commonwealth of
599
[15 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
An Hon. MCMBER : The senate repre- prevent deadlocks—to refer the dispute in
sents the whole of the people !
a uniform manner to a mass referendum
Mr. LYNE: No; it only represents a of the people. That being so I am sure
number of proportions of the people, and that those who know my views pretty:
not the whole. As I was saying, the re- well on this question, will well understand
presentatives in this Convention who have that, as far as I am personally concerned,
continuously contended against equal re- I intend to vote for the mass referendum.
presentation in the senate are now pre- If that is carried-and I should like to see
pared, at least some of them, by one vote, it carried—not with the filtration that is
to take away all that was underlying equal proposed from one stage to another, but I
ropresentation in the senate. That was should like to see it almost direct to the
the power of the senate to thwart the mem- people if necessary, I do believe that this
bers of the house of representatives. I great colony may accept the federation
must acknowledge that, when I first stood bill as it will leave this Convention.
for election to this Convention, my ideas But unless some such proposition is carried,
of federation were not so advanced as they I do not think it will be acceptable to the
are at the present time.
people of this state, although it may be
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: There is still acceptable to the representatives and the
room for improvement !
people of the smaller states.
There are
Mr. LYNE : Improvement so far as the several methods proposed to get rid of
hon. gentleman is concerned. I admit the deadlocks. As I pass along, let me say
breach between him and myself is getting that I discard at once the arguments that
wider. I then scouted the idea of any. have been used by a number of speakers,
thing approaching unification, but as the especially by the hon. member, Sir John
debates proceeded in Adelaide, as I had Downer, when he said it was scarcely pos-
time to think what the result of federation sible in the future under this bill to im-
on the lines of equal state representation agine that there would be a deadlock be-
would be, my ideas have converged very tween both chambers. I do not think we
much in the direction of some sort of uni. have yet arrived at the millennium as
fication. As the hon. member, Mr. O'Con- far as politics are concerned, and as far as
nor, said in his concluding remarks upon human nature is concerned in this par-
this question, the referendum in the man- ticular respect. I think that the present
ner in which he proposed it simply means is the time when we sbould lay the foun-
in the end unification.
dation in our constitution, not for what
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : So it does ! may take place to-day, but for what may
Mr. LYNE: And in the end it does take place hereafter in the political con-
mean unification. It means that in any flicts that may and will arise between the
particular matter that may be brought up
two houses. I think it is altogether wrong
upon which a dispute between the two to suppose that by the absence of the re-
houses may take place, you are filtering ferenduin, or any other provision to pre-
that, you are squeezing that, according to vent deadlocks, we shall prevent, as the
the present proposals, through a number hon. member, Sir John Downer said,
of sieves with very small meshes I acknow- the possibility of the two chambers ever
ledge, but in a very cumbersome way you thinking of allowing a deadlock to take
are squeezing that through the meshes place. I think quite differently. I
until you come to the last proposal, if you think if you create machinery that will
cannot get a provision in any other way to prevent a deadlock you are much more
600 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
likely to prevent any of these questions hon. friend, Mr. Higgins, in consequence
ever being sent to a referendum than you of his determined action, supported only
will be if you have no such machinery and a by two or three, to avoid, if possible, the
state of things where one house can by its passing of equal state representation. I
majority, but by its numerical minority, would ten times, nay a hundred times,
override the wishes of the other chamber. rather that we had proportional represen-
I think, therefore, we can cast that on tation in the senate, than that we should
one side, and we can look at this from a have the referendum in the way proposed,
straightforward point of view, and arrange and that we should have equal representa-
our houses not for the present time but for tion in the senate, and come, in fact, to the
forty years, fifty years, one hundred years, only resource open to us of trying to apply.
or in centuries afterwards when the passions the referendum to get rid of any trouble that
of the people arise, when we shall have a may arise on account of equal representation
large proportion of the population thwarted in the senate. The hon. meinber who pro-
by a small proportion of the population posed this question had in his mind, as I
united under equal state representation. had in mine, and as was clearly proved,
If anything could possibly bring about a that the hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, had in
revolution, it would be so brought about. I his mind, judging from his speech, a de-
think it was stated by the hon. member, sire to obtain some solution of a dead-
Mr. Symon, that it was the domineering lock in any crisis that might arise be-
power of the majority which brought about tween the two houses in this federation.
a revolution on the part of a minority. I He said, I think, as other hon. members
think it was well interjected by the hon. have said, if this were not carried it would
member, Mr. Trenwith, that a revolution alter his vote. I think the hon. and learned
was brought about as a rule by the min. member, Mr. Deakin, said more than
once,
ority thwarting the will of the majority. that he would not have given his vote in
That is what we will allow to be brought farour of equal representation of the states
about if we carry what is now proposed in the senate had it not been that he hoped
by some hon, members.
to obtain some safety-valve to which the
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : The hon. people of the community might have ac-
member was describing a successful revo- cess in case of the senate thwarting their
lution !
representatives in the lower chamber.
Mr. LYNE: I think I may say that we When the question of equal state rights
do not want to see in future generations was under consideration was the time to.
eitherasuccessfulor an unsuccessful revolu- have decided whether or not you were
tion. We want in this democratic country going to have any safety-valve between
to lay the foundation of a constitution on the two houses, and not the present time
which ultimately the voice of the people when the proposal is put forward by nearly
must be heard and must predominate. If every speaker opposed to the referendum,
you frame any other constitution you may and it is acknowledged by those, every
depend upon it you are laying the founda- one of whom is in favour of the refer-
tion of trouble that we little know of or endum, that it must and will absolutely
heed at the present time. Whilst listen- destroy the people's state representation
ing to the debates in Adelaide and here I and the power of the senate. I could
have felt very keenly the depreciatory re- almost imagine niyself voting against a
marks made on more than one occasion, proposal of this kind, coming as it does
and which were applied principally to my
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS :
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
601
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. LYNE: I could almost imagine and I believe she is prepared to do it to some
myself voting against a proposition of extent_under any federation which will
this kind, coming, as it does, when I be acceptable to the other states, to give
have no other means to try to prevent more than all the other states put together.
equal representation, as I could imagine Although I am, perhaps, standing almost
myhon. friend, Mr. Douglas, voting against alone, as regards my co-representatives, on
equal state rights. We all know that he many questions, it is with a considerable
did not vote against equal state rights, amount of delight that I find them, accord-
thathebas stood up in his stalwart strength ing to the speeches which have been made
and fought for his colony with his colours so far, in accord with me on this particu-
flying. I cannot say the same for all the lar point, and in accord with me in this
"pure merinos” he brought from the other way: that though they are prepared to
colony.
give some intermediate filtering process
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Tbe hon. mem- through which all matters in dispute will
ber does not belong to there !
pass, they will ultimately come down to
Mr.LYNE: I am happy to say that, being the true bed-rock, to the true foundation
a native of the colony which myhon. friend
which should underlie our constitution,
represents, I have every kindly feeling and that is, an appeal to the mass will of
towards that colony as I have towards the people. To find that my colleagues
himself.
are in accord with me affords me very
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : To belittle it ! great pleasure, because I have, unfortu-
Mr. LYNE: Not to belittle the colony nately, been almost isolated from thenu in
in any way; but as the hon. and learned
my votes up to the present time.
member, Sir John Downer, said yesterday,
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS :
he is here, like every other representa-
Mr. LYNE: Quite so. The hon. mem-
tive, not only to represent the whole of ber will admit, as other hon. members will
Australia, but also to see that his own par- admit, that we have come to the crucial
ticular state is not unfairly dealt with. He position, to the crucial test of cverything
is fighting for that purpose now. Every to the point on which the whole debate
representativeshould be here to fight for that on equal state rights was centred. The
purpose. I honor the hon. member, Mr. greatest question, and the only question, I
Douglas, for the course he is taking, and have taken up is one on which I feel I
that is why, if I did not take the course I should not give away anything, whatever
have taken up now, I think the people of else may be given away by this colony.
New South Wales should disown me. I Although other matters have been boomed
feel strongly that of all the colonies, which as important issues in connection with
perhaps in the future will become states, federation, I have felt, and I feel now, that
New South Wales is granting greater con- they all sink into the greatest insignifi-
cessions than any of the others. · She is cance when compared with the question of
the largest, the most populous, and the equal state representation, or with the ques-
wealthiest of the group at present, what- tion of the referendum. Take your financial
ever she may be in the future. She Las problem which was found so difficult to deal
the most diversified minerals and wealth of with-I quite admit that it can be over-
all kinds; she has probably the largest tract coine. It may be overcome with some loss
of good land, extending right through her to one state or another, but it can be over-
territory, and I unhesitatingly say that the come. It will be overcome in a few years;
key she holds now places her in a position - whatever the loss may be for the first few
2 T
602
Australia Bill.
Common2c9cGll of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
I say
years it will assimilate itself, and the loss they will be returned again with a quad-
will disappear. Whatever arrangements ruplepower to carry out the course of action
you may make at the present time, whether which was objected to, and which caused
you leave the problem to the federal par- them to be sent to ask for a further vote.
liament, or whether you solve the problem An Hon. MEMBER : That is why the
yourself, that question on which we had hon. member rejects these proposals !
so much debate, and to which some hon. Mr. LYNE: No; I reject them as an
members attached great importance, the absolute conclusion; because that is worse
power of the senate to amend money bills, than giving no dissolution at all as regards
I look upon as an insignificant question the senate. It makes the senate still more
compared with the question we are now powerful.
discussing. Whether that power is or is An HON. MEMBER : That is what we
not given to the senate will not be any want!
greater disaster to the states, when you Mr. LYNE: I know it is. The hon.
have some other power which will over- member is straight. There is nothing
ride any inequality or any injustice which crooked about what he says. He strikes
may be done. When you come to the pro- out from the shoulder every time.
posed inter-state commission to deal with that under those circumstances you would
railways and rivers--I admit that I am
be making the senate still more powerful
opposed to some matters connected with than it would be without a dissolution.
that proposal—the difficulty will be over- As has been said by some representa-
come; time will assimilate everything. But tives, time might be allowed to heal these
when you come to the position we are in matters, as it does in most cases heal any
now, which arises with equal state rights, question of deadlock which may arise
I unhesitatingly say that you have got between the houses of the local parlia-
to the bed, on which must rest the con-
ments as now constituted. If there were
stitution you are going to build. When no dissolution of the senate that might
we come to go to the country—and I take place; but if there is an appeal to a
for one do not desire to make any threats
section--and a small section only--and
as to what this or that colony will do, they send back men who thwarted the
not even to say so much as the hon. representative chamber, then you have the
and learned member, Mr. Symon, said just
deadlock not only as it was before, but
now when he issued those words of warn- intensified to a great extent; and although
ing as to what would happen-if there is it is the proposal of some representatives
not some very strong, stringent proposal that that should come in first, and the
made, under which there can be a dissolu- referendum afterwards, I should much pre-
tion of the senate and a dissolution of the fer to have the referendum. That is why
assembly, I do not think this of very great · I say I should like to see proportional re-
value. It is only one of those little steps presentation of the states instead of the
down to a referendum ; because, when you
referendum. I think proportional repre-
give the power to dissolve the senate, to sentation of the states would be better for
whom do you give that power? You give the smaller states than the referendum.
that power to the ministry of the day. If Still, I say I am prepared to accept the
you give that power, to whom do you send referendum after it filters through these
them back again ? You send them back various channels. There is one subject
to the states; and if they truly represented upon which I wish to say a few words.
the states when they gave their first vote, There are some here who have had the
Mr. Lyne.
Conmonwealth of
603
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
temerity to say that, because I took a cer- nating the smaller states. This seems to
tain stand on the question of equal state me to bring us to the consideration not so
rights-although I have taken no antagon- much of what is or is not federation, be-
istic stand to this Convention or to the cause this is a point:upon which men may
federation of the colonies, except on that differ very materially ; but it brings us to
one principle-I am an opponent of feder- the question of what we require, and what
ation. Let me say that I do not think are our necessities. That consideration,
there is one in this Chamber at the present it seems to me, necessitates a brief review
time who more heartily and earnestly de- of the position of these colonies. In the
sires to see a iznion of the Australian colo-
early stage, this continent was governed
nies than I do. But I feel that I am sent under a system of unification from Sydney.
to the Convention not to accept federation The outlying parts found this form of go-
at any price. I am here for the purpose vernment irksome, because of the distance
of seeing, as far as I think I am justified, they were from the seat of government,
that the colony of New South Wales is and the impossibility of knowing at the
not placed in an improper position in this seat of government adequately the re-
federal compact. No matter what may quirements of the outlying parts. - Con-
be said here, I know what the people out- sequently, separation took place, and the
side will say. My actions will be properly colonies developed, under this system of
construed by those outside the Chamber, separate independent government, a de-
if not by those inside. If we can once get gree of considerable importance; and, as
rid of the difficulty which has cropped up they increased in importance, they dis-
now- Gif this motion is carried-you will covered there were questions, important
find no one more strongly taking the bill to them as colonies, that they could not
in hand, and in going through the country satisfactorily settle singly. Therefore, there
and supporting it at every possible point, arose the necessity for common action, not
than myself.
with reference to all the forces of govern-
Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [4.55]: ment, but with reference to important
The question we are now considering has, governmental questions. What does that
I think, justly been described as of ex- involve? It seems to me to involve for
treme importance. It seems to me that
the purposes that the
no question from the start to the finish of states cannot themselves singly settle
the bill is so important both in itself, and united action; not a united action from
in connection with its influence upon the which any one or any number of the states
prospects of the acceptance or otherwise of can withdraw when it seems to them de-
federation. It is meet, therefore, that it sirable ; but, once having admitted that
should be carefully and fully considered certain points can be better dealt with by
by the Convention. The points which have the whole than by part, it seems to imply for
been urged against the adoption of some these purposes unification. It seems to me
means of settling disputes between the that whether we call it federation or not,
two houses are, first of all, that there is we require for national purposes a strong
no necessity for it, that the disputes be- unified form of government. Our early
tween the two bouses have shown a experience taught us that unification for
capacity for settling themselves as far as all the purposes of government was not
the history of the colonies is concerned; desirable, and thus there is in our midst,
but, further, that it is anti-federal, that it and in all the colonies, a strong determined
gives the larger states the power of domi- feeling that while we have federation we
these purposes
604
Australiu Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
must still maintain the sovereignty of the a man a citizen of his state and a citizen
states. There are some who urge that the of the commonwealth. Experience has
sovereignty of the states for state purposes shown us that the citizens in the state will
necessarily inplies the sovereignty of the not brook unequal citizenship—they will
states in larger national questions. I have not brook one voter having more power
no hesitation in expressing the opinion than another voter. We have acknow-
that state rights can only be preserved, ledged that to be so by creating, with re-
the sovereignty of the states can only ference to the election of senators and
be preserved, by handing matters over to members of the house of representatives,
the federal parliament which cannot be equal powers to the states within their
dealt with by the states themselves by states. Now, have we any right to assume
making the federal objections as few as that when we create another form of citizen-
possible, but having decided what is fede- ship—the commonwealth citizenship—the
ral, leaving the federal power sovereign same man who would not brook unequal
with reference to that. Thus we create two citizenship in the state will submit to un-
distinct governmental entities. We leave
We leave equal citizenship in the commonwealth?
sovereign states with power to deal alto- The Hon. H. DOBSON : It is a dual con-
gether apart from federal interference with cern !
such questions as they refuse to hand over. Mr. TRENWITH : I am dealing with
Then we create a federal power sovereign the true form of citizenship. From the in-
within its own realm, competent to deal ception of the commonwealth, if we are
without the interference of the states as successful in establishing one—and it de-
states with questions that are handed over pends largely upon whether we deal wisely
to it. Any other form of government will or unwisely with this proposal whether we
not give us what we require as shown by shall be successful—when we have estab-
a review of the history of our colonies. lished the commonwealth, every man inside
Having in view the influence of this pro- the commonwealth, in addition to being a
posal upon the possible success of this fede. citizen of a state, is a citizen of the nation
ral movement, I should like briefly to review that is created out of this effort.
the attitude of the people of Australia with The Hon. H. DOBSON : You want the
reference to their rights and powers as citizen of the state to be merged into the
citizens. In each of the Australian colo- citizen of the nation!
nies we began with a comparatively re- Mr. TRENWITH: I want him to re-
stricted franchise, and we developed a sys- tain his dual position; but, in relation to it,
tem of plural voting. In several of the to maintain a proper principle of equality
colonies the franchise has been made com- with each other citizen. As a citizen of
plete, unrestricted, and plural voting has the state equal with any other citizen of
been abolished ; thus we see the tendency the state, and the citizen of the common-
is to demand in the states equal rights as wealth equal with any other citizen of the
citizens. There can be no disputing that colony.
that tendency is growing. It has been The Hon. 'H. DOBSON : But is he to
recognised that that tendency is growing, merge or not?
so that the principle of manhood suffrage Mr. TRENWITH : He is not to merge.
and the possibility of adult suffrage have The hon. member will see that I am speak-
been placed in this bill. Now, let us look ing under difficulties. It is only the great
at what we are doing. We are creating a importance of the question that impels me
dual citizenship, a citizenship which makes to express thoughts that seem to me to be
[Mr. Trenwith.
Commonwealth of
605
[15 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
occur.
weighty and worthy of consideration, and I means of obviating deadlocks is neces-
will ask the hon. member not to interrupt sary or not, it seems to me not necessary
me. The hon. member asks again is he to to demonstrate that there is a danger
merge. I say no. The citizen of no other of deadlock so much as to demonstrate
state can influence him in any way within that the people are afraid of deadlocks;
his state. If proper provisions are made, because, after all, suppose the fear is only
he can have within the commonwealth
vague and shadowy, that it has no sub-
equal power with any other citizen in any stance, that the thing is not at all likely to
other part of the colony ; but unless some occur, that is altogether unimportant if
other provision as has been indicated is the people be afraid that a deadlock will
made, a citizen in one part of the common-
The history of these colonies has
wealth will exercise eight or nine times shown, times out of number, that legisla-
as much influence as a citizen in another tive action which the people have desired
part of the commonwealth ; and I respect- to take has been frustrated by the action
fully submit that, in view of the growing of the second chamber, and with this know-
democracy, the growing democratic feel- ledge before them of the effect and action
ing, the people of Australia will not sub- of the second chamber, the people think
mit to a form of government that perpetu- there is a necessity for some mechanical
ates plural voting in that way. The people device to settle disputes when they occur.
who have been engaged in fighting plural My hon. friend, Mr. Symon, said that dis-
voting, in wiping it out stage by stage until putes of this character fizzled out. Now,
at last in some states they have completely I am at a loss to understand, exactly,
obliterated it, will not subscribe to a con- what he meant. It is true that they cease
stitution that reinstitutes it in an to be acute, but they may have succeeded
tremely objectionable form. And I sub- in frustrating the will of the people. If
mit that it is plural voting to give to one legislation has been proposed in accord
vote eight times as much power as an-
with the will of the people, and if by
other, just as much plural voting as to the action of either party, or both, effect
give to one man eight or nine votes to the has not been given to that will, it is of no
one vote of some other man.
I am sorry
consequence that there will have ceased
that the representatives of South Australia to be an acute dispute. The consequence
are not present in the chamber to any to the people is that their will has not
extent? There is one representative of
been made law; and that seems to me an
that colony here, but I am afraid that extremely important consideration. Al-
he is one of those who are opposed to man- together unimportant is the fact that the
hood suffrage unadulterated, and to female attitude of fight between the two houses
suffrage unadulterated, therefore my argu-
has fizzled out; but extremely important
ment does not appeal to him with such is the fact that the people's will has not
force as it seems to me it ought to appeal
been embodied in the statute-book of
to those who claim to be liberals in the the land. If the hon. member asks for in-
South Australian Parliament. They there stances of that sort there must be many of
have demanded equal powers for every them within his own recollection. In our
adult citizen, and they are by their action colony, at any rate, I know there is a
here demanding more than equal power, strong feeling on the subject-a feeling so
greater power, for some citizens in the com- strong that the people there will not vote
monwealth than for other citizens. With for a federal constitution which does not
reference to the question whether the provide some means of settling disputes
ex-
606
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
between the two houses. I agree with for which it is designed. The second
hon. members that it highly improbable chamber is, and ought to be, a house of
that they would occur frequently, but it review, of reasonable delay. It ought to
is possible that they may occur some times, have power to stand in the way and say,
and whenever they do occur they injure No, not so fast-not so far; there are
the people whom both houses claim to reasons we can show why the action you
represent. If a dispute occurred between are taking is unjust, and we demand time
agents—and, surely, both houses are agents to make those reasons apparent to the
of the people they represent—what is people of the commonwealth.” But having
the common-sense course taken but to had that time, having had the opportunity
refer thë dispute which the agents had to make apparent. the evils of the course
been unable to settle to the principals ? which it is proposed to take, they have
That is what is sought to be achieved by no right further to stand in the way of
the proposed referendum. I regret that the vishes of the people if it becomes
my hon. friend, Mr. Symon, was not here manifest that the wishes of the people,
when I was urging the importance of without regard to where they are located,
equal citizenship, and I will take the are opposed to the action they have recom-
liberty to somewhat briefly urge it again. mended. Then, in the ultimate resort, when
In South Australia my hon, friend, Mr. a dispute has become chronie, or when
Holder, particularly, has been fighting for it has become acute, when all reasonable
the equalisation of the franchise, the ex- means has been taken to settle it by argu-
tension of it to every citizen, and the re- ment and by concession, and when the
moval from it of preponderating influences dispute has to be referred to some other
on the part of any citizens. Now, in this tribunal, that other tribunal ought not to
federal compact we are creating a national be the people of the various colonies. col-
citizenship as distinct from a state citizen- lected in groups, voting with equal power
ship, and while the people have demanded in each group without regard to the mag-
equal citizenshipin thestateis it democratic, nitude of the group; but, as the question
is it reasonable, to ask that there should is a national question, it should be referred
be an equal citizenship in the nation ? The to the nation in the person of all its units
proposal of equal representation in the of citizenship. That, my hon. friend tells
senate does give eight or ten times more me, is subversive of responsible govern-
power on a national question than the ment. · Will he pardon me for suggesting
vote of a citizen in one part of the nation that that very principle exists in the Con-
or another. Then my hon. friend says, stitution of Great Britain. When a dis-
"What is the use of having this equal re- pute arises between sections of the one
presentation "-call it a concession if you house, the principle of the referendum is
will—"if you propose in the ultimate resort resorted to, and it is the base of respon-
to nullify its effect ?" I respectfully sub- sible government. When the party en-
mit that it is impossible to nullify its effect. trusted with the government of the coun-
The only reason for which it can be justly try find themselves out of accord with
claimed is that it is a shield against aggres- other sections of the house of which they
sion without due consideration,
are members, the constitution demands
Mr. Symon : You take the shield away practically that they shall appeal from
and
expose us to the sword !
themselves, the agents, to the people, the
Mr. TREN WITH: We make the principals, by means of a dissolution.
shield effective for the reasonable purposes
Thus we have in the British Constitution
[Mr. Trenwith.
Conmonwealth of
607
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the principle of a referendum, not for Mr. TRENWITH: There may be a
the settlement of disputes between the war on this question without a resort to
two houses, but for the settlement of dis- personal violence. I am one of those who
putes between sections of one house. But believe that it is nearly, if not absolutely,
we have in the British Constitution a impossible for the people of this continent
safety-valve of another character. There ever to go to war in the sense of physical
rests in the Crown power, at any time, to violence. But we have often spoken
increase the House of Lords in order to figuratively of wars of tariffs, of wars of
bring it, if need be, into accord with the conflicting legislation on matters of com-
people's will as represented in the House mon interests, and I say, having in view
of Commons. My hon. and learned friend that limited and restricted meaning, we
said, “Why introduce a provision which have to consider now whether it is to be
you say, when you urge its adoption, will peace or war; whether the small states-
never be used ; if it is not going to be and I regret that we should refer to small
used, do not let us have it?" How can the or large states, and I venture to say that
hon. and learned gentleman say this, with all the references of that kind were initi-
his knowledge of the splendid working of ated by the large states—whether the small
the British Constitution, with that power states will say now, “We are so determined
to which I have referred always in exist- to haggle, to bargain, to make good terms
ence and never used ?
for our colonies, without regard to the
Mr. SYMON: It is never visible !
federal spirit
Mr. TRENWITH: Always visible, and Mr. SYMON : We want our rights !
at least once in the history of England com-
pletely effective. Surely, there can be no
Mr. TRENWITH : That unless we get
stronger argument for having a weapon,
equal power in the government of the
sheathed if you will, so visible that its mere
colony, whether we have twenty people or
presence will prevent thenecessity of a resort
1,000,000, we will not federate. Then I
to it. That seems to me to be a strong
say the millions of people will be forced,
argument in opposition to my lion, and
in self-defence, in defence of their rights,
learned friend's view. I am not fit to dis-
not with the object of making a good bar-
cuss this question further. It is a very
gain, but as trustees for posterity--because
important one, and it is one on which I they dare not, if they are honorable men,
feel very warmly. It is one which con- hand over a heritage of slavery to their
tains within it the kernel of federation or descendants.
no federation. My hon, and learned friend HON. MEMBERS : Oh !
was right when, in his choice and eloquent
Mr. TRENWITH : It is easy to laugh
diction, and in words of fervent warning,
and to say it is the other way about, but
he impressed upon the House the import-
in South Australia, as my hon. friend, Dr.
ance of acting on this question with de-
Cockburn, has said, it was slavery to give
liberation, with thought, and apart from
one man two votes and another man only
personal feeling; and I say to him, and to
those who think with him,
one vote. That hon. gentleman has fought
Take
care ;
consider now whether it is to be federation
under the standard of democracy until he,
or no federation, whether it is to be peace
and those who struggled with him, have
or war”--to use the language of the hon.
succeeded in wiping out that form of
and learned gentleman himself
, as nearly slavery in his state.
as I can remember.
Mr. SYMON: They did not wipe it out,
Mr. SYMON : We are not going to war! it was wiped out long before then !
66
608
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
this year.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: One man one to the larger colonies, did not occupy a
vote is founded on liberty !
very prominent place in the discussions in
this hall in 1891.
Mr. SYMON : We are the one country
of freemen on the continent!
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Nor
in Adelaide!
Mr. TRENWITH: I thank my hon.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
and learned friend for that term. There
I was absent from the Convention when it
is one colony of freemen on the continent.
was brought forward at Adelaide, and,
Why? Because every voter in South Aus-
consequently, do not know what took place.
tralia has equal power with erery other
Certainly there was no great discussion
voter. We are now going to create an-
upon it except to negative it; I think, in
other form of citizenship, and we must
the Constitutional Committee. In 1891,
create it under conditions that will main-
I do not think the matter was discussed
tain freedom to the citizens of the nation,
at all.
as South Australia has obtained freedom
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: You were only
for the citizens of the state. Therefore, I
playing with federation then !
am justified in saying that we have a right
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
to consider—the people of the larger states
There was no attempt in 1891 to introduce
must and will consider-whether we shall
a system to prevent deadlocks, and only to
hand to posterity a heritage of slavery or
a very small extent in the early part of
of freedom. If we vote for equal power
to every citizen, we shall be making free
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It was well
people of the future Australians; if we
discussed in Adelaide. In 1891, the dele-
vote for greater power for one citizen than
gates were not elected by the people.
for another, we shall be putting chains upon
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
the legs of the citizens in the larger states
The hon. member may make a good deal
of this commonwealth.
out of that statement; but I take it that
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST the Convention of 1891 felt that there was
(Western Australia) [5.28]: I am sure, cast upon them a responsibility, as repre-
speaking for myself, and for many others senting the various colonies they came
who think with me, nothing is further
from, quite equal to the responsibility felt
from our desire than that the hon. member by us at the present time. I am willing
who last spoke, or the colony he repre- to admit the argument used by some hon.
sents, should be subjected to any kind of members, or, at any rate, by one hon.
slavery at our hands. There is no desire member, that because this provision does
on the part of any one-certainly not on not find a place in any of the constitutions
my part-to force any colony on the con- existing in the world at the present time,
tinent to enter into this federation scheme, that is no reason why we should not in-
but to leave it to do so with free choice troduce it into this constitution if it is
and by the will of its people. For the hon. thought that it would be beneficial. But
member to tell us that there is to be any I take it that we who are against the pro-
slavery on the part of any one, is to paint posal may fairly urge hon. members to
a picture foreign to the mind of every one consider that this provision does not find
of us, and such as could exist only in the a place in the British Constitution or in
fertile brain of the hon. member himself. any of the constitutions of the British
Now this proposal, which is so very im- colonies, neither does it find a place in the
portant, or is considered so very important, Constitution of the United States. Our
[Mr. Trenwith.
Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 609
contention is that this provision is not taking a prominent part in this debate. I
required. We believe that to provide a will say that there seems to be no end to
machinery for the settlement of deadlocks, the demands which have been made on
which has not been found necessary in behalf of the larger states. We have given
the past, will be to encourage differences way time after time. Some hon, members
which the ordinary procedure so well have now voted in a different way from
known to us all so well known in the
pro- that in which they voted at Adelaide a few
ceedings of the various parliaments of the months ago, not because they have changed
British Empire—mutual good-will, concili- theiropinions, but in order, generally speak-
ation, and common sense--will generally ing, as they have told me, that they might
work out, and public opinion behind it will further the cause of federation, and make
generally come to the rescue, and solve all it easier for the larger colonies to place the
the difficulties that are likely to arise. We matter in a favourable light before the elec-
have our own experience during the last tors. But we also have the same difficulty
thirty years on this continent, and with in regard to the electors of our various colo-
the exception of that struggle in regard to nies as hon. members representing New
which even an actor in it, who is heré South Wales and Victoria have. Speak-
to-day-and whom I am glad to see here ing for the colony that I represent, I say
-has told us that he regrets the part he that amongst the electors there is no great
took --a struggle which we all admit now feeling in favour of federation. It will
should never have arisen-at any rate, take a good deal of persuasion, and it
that is the judgment of the present day, will take all the powers of argument that
for it was an unreasonable proposition, we possess to commend it to the goodwill
an attempt to coerce--with that excep- of the electors there ; and unless we are
tion, there have been no differences of prepared to show that we have framed a
great importance, and certainly none of really good constitution, and that they
recent date, which have not been solved will have their rights protected--not that
by the two houses; and I think that under they are likely to be invaded, as I said
this constitution, although something has yesterday ; I have no fear myself, but
been said to the contrary, the chances of that is not the feeling of the electors, who
disagreement will be very much lessened. will want to see first of all that they are
Although the members of the senate will not going to lose by it, and who will also
represent the states, there will not be very want to know whether their rights are
many occasions when they will be called protected, and whether they are in any
upon to vote on what may properly be said danger of being overridden by the peoples
to be state interests. Of course, the mem- of the larger states.
We shall have more
bers of the two houses will not always be difficulty in our colony, although it is
in accord—no one desires they should be- small in population—perhaps a great deal
but I think that the chances are that there more difficulty than those representing the
will be fewer disagreements, and none larger colonies, because the spirit of feder-
which their own good sense and modera- ation has not entered into the minds of the
tion, assisted by public opinion, will not be people there to the same extent as it has
able to overcome. I cannot help thinking here, and I would ask hon, members, who
that there seems. to be no end to the de- represent the larger colonies, to recollect
mands which have been made by some bon. that the difficulties are not all on their side,
members, certainly by the representatives but that the difficulties are quite as great
of Victoria, or at any rate by those who are on the part of the representatives of the
6:10
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15. SEPT., 1897.]
colonies having smaller populations. I do Mr. TRENWITH: You have tied the lower
not like to say this, but I think I must : house at every stage !
that if there is a fear on the part of the The Right Hon Sir JOHN FORREST :
representatives or the people of the two. We have done almost everything possible
larger states that they are to be coerced to prevent difference of opinion arising
or overridden. by the smaller statesa between the two houses. I venture, the
most unreasonable proposition I think- opinion--it is merely an opinion to be
they had better federate themselves and taken for what it is worth that when
leave us alone. If there is not to be mutual this constitution gets into working order,
confidence, if we are to enter into this the dissolution of the house of representa-
federation each trying to get the upper tives will be found to be almost impractic-
hand, each trying to coerce the other, each able. I believe that, in the working of
thinking only of himself, then the best this constitution, it will be found that the
thing we can do is to let the two larger bouse of representatives when once elected
colonies federate themselves and let us will run its course, and that the appeals
think about it later on,
to the people of the whole continent will
An Hon. MEMBER : The right hon. gen- very seldom follow a premature dissolu-
tleman does not mean that!
tion of the house of representatives. I
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: think that in the practical working of the
Well, it seems to me that if the arguments constitution it will be found that we shall
to which we have listened to-day and yes- have to depend for an expression of the
terday really express the sentiments of the popular opinion at the ballot-boxes largely
people of New South Wales and Victoria, upon the occasion of the periodical elec-
there is a great dealin what Isay--that they tions, and that the instances in which
seem to be indifferent whether the smaller ministers will recommend the dissolution
colonies do or do not enter into this feder- of the house of representatives will be few
ation. That is an impression that has been and far between. Ministers will not find
gaining upon me day by day--that there it so convenient to appeal to the people of
seems to be a desire on the part of the re- the whole continent as it is to appeal to
presentatives of the larger colonies to dis- the people within a circumscribed area in
trust the people of the smaller colonies, which public opinion is to a large extent
and there also seems to be a spirit of in- dominated by the newspapers published at
difference gaining ground as to whether we the seat of government. When we have a
do or do not take part in the federation. federated Australia, it will not be the news-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Our people tell papers published at the seat of government
us we are giving you everything!
which will influence the electors, it will be
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: the press of the various colonies, and the
We have provided in the money clauses of result will be very different. I take it
the bill, as far as possible, to do away with that all these precautions for preventing
any chance of deadlocks; we have provided deadlocks are unnecessary, and may be
against what are commonly called “tacks;" found mischievous, because they will en-
we have provided against many subjects courage differences rather than put an end
of taxation being introduced in one bill ; to them. The people of the larger colo-
we have provided that all expenditure, nies have nothing whatever to fear from
other than that of the ordinary annual ser- this federation. If there is any cause of
vices, shall be introduced in a separate bill; fear it should exist on the part of the colo-
and we have done everything we could nies which are situated far away from the
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
611
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bizl.
:
seat of government, and from the influ- addressing the Convention at this stage.
ences which surround the meeting place of I am sure that those who are assembled
the parliament. Another idea has occurred here will admit that, in Adelaide, I was
to me. If you give the power to dissolve always willing to listen, and to record my
both houses—the double dissolution as it vote in favour of what was just and right.
has been called-allowing the government I do not pretend to have the ability or
of the day to appeal to the constituencies the eloquence of the speakers who have
whenever a conflict of opinions occurs, preceded me; but occasion sometimes de-
it may, as time goes on, be used for a very mands from a man that he shall not re-
different purpose from that for which it is main for ever a dumb dog. After having
being advocated at the present time. I this question of state rights fought out
can imagine that a.government, which felt in: a fair fight, I cannot understand that
itself somewhat weak, or which thought those who say that they have conceded
that an occasion was. an opportune one certain rights to us, or that they have made
for an appeal to the country, might en- certain sacrifices, should now try by an
courage a conflict rather than try to avoid insidious amendment to take those rights
it, in order that in this way it might from us. So far as I am individually
be able to recommend a dissolution of concerned, I do not recognise that any
both houses, in the hope that that would concessions have been given, or that any
strengthen their following, or, at any rate, sacrifices have been made by the larger
give it more time. I do not say that states. I repudiate the idea altogether.
that is what is likely to occur ; but know- I say that, if it were not that we believed
ing as we do that the constitution of the that the principle of equal state rights
United States of America has been used would be conceded, the smaller colonies
for purposes foreign to the intentions of would not have come into the Convention.
its framers, you may depend upon it that For many years we were told that there
as time goes on every possible device will was a lion in the path of federation; but,
be used to gain political influence and now that we have been enabled by our
power by taking advantage of the form united action to remove that animal from
of the constitution. I did not intend to our path, what do the larger states invite
make any observations upon this subject, us to do ? They ask us to take part in the
because the position has been so well put creation of a monster more desperate than
by the hon. member, Sir John Downer, the lion apparently was—they ask us to
and, to a certain extent, by the hon. and destroy our state rights !
learned member, Mr. Symon, though I do The Right Hon. G. H. REID : A mon-
not altogether agree with what was said ster!
by him. I thought, however, that, com- The Hon.J.H. HOWE: Yes, a monster
ing as I do from one of the smaller colonies, -a Frankenstein. They ask us to destroy
and the colony which is furthest away, it the rights which we prize so much, and
was necessary for me to make these few which they say that they have, although
observations, in order to place the views reluctantly, conceded to us.
of Western Australia, in regard to this The Right Hon. G. H. REID: What are
matter, before the Commitee.
they doing to you? What is the proposal ?
[The Chairman left the chair at 5.45 p.m. The
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I will come
Committee resumed cut 7.30 p.m.]
to that in due time. I do not profess to
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus- have the command of language with which
tralia) [7.30] : I make no apology for the right hon. member is gifted ; but I
612
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
case of
have a little judgment, which I to-night deadlock is simply giving away the rights
will in a manly way make use of. Of of the smaller populated states. I am
course, the lay members of the Conven- quite prepared to concede this : that there
tion have, as a rule, allowed the eminent shall be some safety-valve, because with-
men who have had a legal training to take out a safety-valve responsible government
the leading part and the pride of place in cannot exist. Although we think we have
framing the constitution. That is only got equal representation, so far as we have
right and proper, because we recognise that gone, we have not got actual equal repre-
it is a work for constitutional lawyers to sentation. No one knows that better than
perform. Consequently we have been con- the Right Hon. G. H. Reid. To have equal
tent to be guided by their great wisdom representation we should have equal power
and experience, and have followed their in the house of representatives; but for
lead in attempting to build up a constitu- the sake of federation what have we con-
tion which will be equitable to the people ceded? We have no right of initiation ;
of Australia. If I had the language of we have abandoned that for which we
my right lion. friend
fought so earnestly-the right of amend-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: If I had ment.
only the hon, member's height!
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : You hare
The Hon. J.H. HOWE: What the right the right of initiation !
hon. member wants in height he makes up The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Not in the
in breadth, and I have no doubt that if
money bills. The power of the
the scale were brought to ber upon us both purse is the golden key which rules every-
his would be the preponderating weight. thing and opens every door. We know
That is the position he wants his colony that we have allowed these things to
to obtain in federated Australia. I have be frittered away, and for the sake of
been an earnest federationist for many federation and for the sake of entering
years, and, in my humble way, many into a brotherhood we have actually de-
years ago I addressed audiences upon the parted from the first position which we
subject of federation, with all the force and took up. After we have done that, some
vigour that I could command. Like all hon, members want to bring in these in-
loyal Australians, I conceived that it was sidious amendments, so that the states
the destiny of the colonies to be united, shall have no independent life. Since I
and I have always been willing to give joined this Convention in Adelaide, that
and to take as much as I possibly could fair city of the south, where the people are
in order to bring about a federation or as free as their air is pure, and whose
a partnership which would be just to freedom I wish to maintain, I have under-
the whole of the people of Australia. gone the difficult task of fighting an elec-
Much as I desire federation, I cannot, on tion. I have contested an election over
behalf of the colony I represent, accept a an area of country twice as large as the
manifest injustice. I imagine that we whole area of New South Wales. I admit
have joined so far in what we may call a that the greater part of that district is
fair partnership, in which there will be no almost unknown.
dominion and no undue coercion.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I do not
those lines, I am perfectly willing on believe it has been surveyed !
behalf of those I represent, to give my
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: A great deal
voice for an equitable federation. But a of it has not been surveyed. But I just
national referendum in connection with a wish to point out the bearing of this ques-
On
[The Hon. J. H. Howe.
Commonwealth of
613
L15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bibl.
tion of equal representation which hon. long? What is the old country doing ?
members are trying to fritter away by all Why, sir, she is compelling, at her own
the means that the human intellect can sweet will and pleasure, these very people
devise. I have contested an election in a whose goods and people we wish to ex-
district twice the area of the whole of New clude to open their ports. Depend upon it,
South Wales, and containing great possi- sir, those who watch passing events can
bilities.
see the dangers that will fall on this coun-
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER : What popu- try if we remain divided. I care more
lation ?
about this federation for defence purposes
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I do not than I do for any other purpose you can
know exactly the population, but I can name. It is necessary for our national
tell the hon. member the number of those life, for our well-being, for our safety,
who are entitled to the franchise. It is an that Australia should federate, even if it
electorate with over 30,000 electors. Con- be only for defence purposes.
We see
sequently, when I hear the representatives Russia, that great populous country, with
of the mother colony talking about conces- 80,000,000 of people, with a large army
sion and sacrifice, and I look at only a of soldiers who we know cannot be sur-
portion of my district, and the great pos- passed by any other nationality than our
sibilities which exist there, no wonder own, and we have evidence on every hand
that I repudiate any sacrifice or any con-
how the Russians have fought on every
cession that the mother colony chooses to field; we see France and Russia embracing
make us believe she has conceded to us. each other, marching hand in hand, who not
An Hon. MEMBER: The senior colony! long ago were in"deadly strife, and covered
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I prefer to many a hard-fought battle-field with the
call her the mother colony. I recognise the corpses of tens of thousands of men ; we
greatness, the immense possibilities of your see these mighty nations, for their own de-
country. You have all within your terri- fence, marching hand in hand together, and
tory to make it an independent and self- jealous of the supremacy of England on
existing nation. You have immense coal the seas, and jealous of her commerce.
It
measures; in fact you have all the mineral is not long ago since we had evidence
wealth that the people of any country could of this. I think it was my right hon.
desire. But at the same time and this friend, the Premier of New South Wales,
prings me to a point which I do not think who sent a cable to the British Govern-
has yet been touched upon—we pride our- ment, when England was almost at bay
selves upon our position, we pride ourselves amongst the nations of the earth, owing to
upon our advancement; but, would it have a little international squabble; and it is
been possible to have advanced as we have these little international squabbles that
done within the last one hundred years if often bring a mighty war in their wake.
we had not been protected by that grand I was very pleased that the right hon. gen-
flag which is supreme over every sea ? Is tleman sent that telegram to the Prime
it not a recognised fact that we are passing Minister of England, offering assistance to
laws imposing restrictions upon great, and England in that great emergency.
mighty, and populous nations? Do we not The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. member
say to Japan and China, and other eastern think this has anything to do with the
nations, “ You shall not do so and so." And referendum ?
what is their position to-day? They have The Hon. J. H. HOWE: As you, Mr.
to submit. Will that submission be for Chairman, have put it to me, I think it
614
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
members every
has a great deal to do with the matter be- solution, I admitted before, and I say
fore the Committee, because it opens up it again, that I am not adverse to any
the whole question of state rights ; and I system whereby the will of the people
am trying to show that, although I am in shall dominate, but I object to the means
favour of federation, I will not be a party of taking from the states that separate
to giving away the separate existence, as national existence which rightly belongs to
I may term it, of each state. I am trying them.
I am trying them. As regards the double dissolution,
to show that federation is justifiable, even I consider, as far as I am able to judge of
for defence purposes alone; and I think I its application in our own colony, that it
am fairly within my right in doing that. is all tbat is desirable. I think we have
That telegram was acknowledged, as it been magnifying the deadlock question too
should be, with parental pride. But here much altogether. We seem to forget that
are we, in Australia, offering assistance to both these houses are to be based on the
the mother country when really we are in people's will, elected by the electors of the
a comparatively defenceless state ourselves. whole of Australia, and that they will be
It was right and proper to do it ; I do not of short duration. What will be the life
object to it. It was a proper thing for the of any of these houses ? The lower house
offshoots of that great country, when they will have to seek re-election every three
thought the old motherland was in danger, years. The upper chamber, according to the
to come to her assistance ; but it seemed present proposal, will have to send half of its
rather peculiar to me that we should offer
third year to the country,
-lavishly offer, I may say-assistance to so that we have continually pouring in
a nation like England, when we were not upon the senate men fresh from the people,
in a position to defend ourselves. How- imbued with the same ideas that the people
say that pure, real defence, as far have, and this in itself will, in a great
as Australia is concerned, can only be ob- measure, prevent any of those dreadfuldead-
tained by united action and by federation locks from occurring that have been antici-
for that purpose.
It is lamentable to me pated. I recognise that there is a remote
to see the different colonies trying to keep possibility of a deadlock occurring. I recog-
up an army of their own, under different nise that it is necessary to have a safety-
heads, equipped with different weapons, valve to deal with it, and I think that the
and all as it were at sixes and sevens, double dissolution will be quite sufficient.
whereas, if this country were federated, “But this does not seem to satisfy members
we would have one army. I do not be- of the Convention who hail from these
lieve in standing armies or in powerful more populous colonies. They say we must
navies, but whilst Europe is bristling with have the referendum, and they claim as a
bayonets, whilst the eastern countries are matter of equity that it shall be a national
rising and will become, by-and-by, aggres- referendum. Now, what a position this
sive, it is necessary that Australia, at all will place the smaller colonies in! As I
events, should look after that which it said before, I deny in toto, put it to any
has fought so hard to win ; and it is by practical test you like, that the senate
this means that Australia can offer an will rule. Although we lay the flattering
effective resistance to any nation which unction to ourselves that we have equal
may be inclined to invade our shores. rights with the larger colonies, we know
Coming back to the referendum, coming full well that where the people are the
back also to the existence of the states as people will dominate. And seeing the
states, and to the question of double dis- constitution of the lower house, our voices
ever, I
[The Hon. J. H. Howe.
Commonwealth of
615
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
will be like weak voices crying in the The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Say some-
wilderness; we shall scarcely have a voice thing amiable after that!
in the legislation of the country. We shall The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I do not often
becompletely dominated in the lower house, occupy the attention of the Convention.
and if we give away any more than we I do not like to stand up here and reiter-
have already done, as far as state rights ate words and sentences which have been
are concerned, we shall be simply handing better spoken than I could possibly speak
our people over to bondage. I remember them; but ideas come to individuals as to
once reading about an Irish deputation nations, and times whenitisimperativeupon
which waited upon one of their repre- them to speak that which is within them.
sentatives, and accused him of selling I have done so on the present occasion.
his country. Of course the incident that Of course, it would be easy for me or for
I am relating refers to the time when anyone else to elaborate it; but I do not
Castlereagh and English gold deprived wish to occupy the Convention unduly.
Ireland of its parliament, and almost en- Hon. members have addressed words of
slaved its people; and when the deputa- caution amounting almost to threats; but
tion waited on him, and accused him of unless you are prepared to treat us fairly,
having done a certain thing, to the horror to take us into full partnership--although
of the deputation, he went down on his I admit you cannot do that, seeing that
knees and thanked God that he had a we have given way too much already—if
country to sell. We who come from the you are going to whittle down concessions
other colonies are not imbued with that again and again, the sooner this Conven-
idea. We are here to give that which is tion comes to an end the better, and we
necessary to the vigorous life of a free can then leave those who take our places
people occupying the whole of Australia; our children—to carry out the destiny
but we are not in a position, and we do which belongs to the people of this great
not intend to give you that which belongs continent.
purely to the state. I say that I would Mr. LEAKE(Western Australia) [7.57]:
rather become a native of Japan, than l'e- It has been said by several speakers to-
main the citizen of a small state that yielded day that, although they are federationists,
the powers that this Convention is trying they will not have federation at any price.
to force from it. What would national To them I would rejoin that I would not
life be without freedom? We have done accept federation with a halter round my
very well hitherto. Our colony is looked neck. That is the position in which I find
upon as a small colony--that is, so far myself, when I am asked to accept federa-
as population is concerned ; but we bave tion with the referendum. In attempting
done great work with our population; we to fit so-called safety-valves to the political
are a vigorous and a free people : we have machine, it will be well to take care that
undertaken works of great magnitude; we the machine is not all safety-valve—that
have the intelligence and common-sense to is what it promises to become. I fear we
know when our rights are invaded, and shall find the whole of our federal consti-
we have the courage to try to maintain tution overshadowed by the system of re-
those rights. However much, from our ferendum, if it be adopted in the form pro-
geographical position, we may desire feder- posed by most of its supporters. I say at
ation, it must not be a federation which once that I am against the referendum
will make us subservient to the larger as I have heard it explained; but I will
colonies.
not emphatically declare against any other
i
616
Australia Biii.
Commonweaith of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
possible method of preventing a deadlock, straight away from the very outset to
nor ain I opposed to the suggestion that we arrive at the last stage of the journey,
should, in certain circumstances, peculiar namely, the referendum.
namely, the referendum. And what an
and exceptional perhaps, have a dissolution opportunity does not that offer to a class
of the senate. Whether that dissolution of person who may ultimately arise---the
should be, at any moment, at the will of any unscrupulous politician ? Such a person, I
particular person, or whether it should occur assume, is not known at the present mo-
after the happening of certain events, after ment to exist in the Australian colonies,
the application of certain tests, are matters but in these days of evolution we know
to be ultimately decided when we come to not what may happen, and with an un-
discuss the question in detail. I was very scrupulous politician at the head of affairs,
much impressed, as I dare say other hon. knowing that he has in his hand a power
members were, by the able speeches de in the shape of the referendum, will he
livered by Mr. Gordon, Mr. Symon, and hesitate to stoop to any course which
Sir John Downer, against the use of the
will enable him to reach his object speedily
referendum, and also by the equally able and rapidly, and apply that very drastic
speeches delivered by Mr. O'Connor and Mr. remedy? And, when the remedy is ap-
McMillan; but with regard to the speeches plied.---when the referendum is put in
of the two latter gentlemen, perhaps other operation, what shall we find ? I speak now
hon. members were, with me, somewhat sur- as representing what is for the moment
prised at their conclusions, because, after regarded as a smaller state. We should
speaking against the principle, after telling be in the position of being overridden by
us that they objected to it, they adopted a combination of, perhaps, two of the
it. If we are supposed to be actuated by larger states. That is a position to which
the principle of concession in framing our I do not feel disposed to submit. We have
constitution, why should we not also adopt all along said, in discussing these ques-
it in applying the constitution when we tions, that we want no iron-bound consti-
have it? If we have the referendum, tution—that elasticity is what we aim
there is no encouragement for the conces- at. But, with the referendum before us,
sions which have been so ably advocated we have that very iron-bound element we
in the framing of the constitution in this wish to avoid. There is no leaving any-
Convention. The referendum is the ulti- thing to chance, or to circumstances, or to
mate method of settling all disputes. It conciliation. If the referendum is an
is claimed that it is finality. But it is active power in the state, we shall ulti-
that very suggestion of finality that I fear; mately be forced to adopt it. And we shall
because, while aiming and striving after adopt it—not in those extraordinary cir-
the finality which may be at a greater or cumstances in which we now say it shall
less distance, there is the danger that an only apply, but there will be a tendency to
attempt may be made to take a short cut apply it in every particular instance, or,
towards the attainment of the object, and if not in every particular instance, when
if the referendum is the ultimate method it becomes a matter of convenience or ex-
of deciding, then all other intermediate pediency. Take, for instance, one very
stages, such, perhaps, as the dissolution of serious aspect of this question and it
either house, will be given the go-by, and was suggested, I think, in a speech by
there will not be those pauses for the pur- my bon. friend, Mr. Gordon. Let us as-
pose of reflection by the way, but there sume that a question of amending the con-
will be an undue haste in attempting stitution arises. Perhaps it is taking an
[Mr. Leake.
Conmonuealth of
617
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
extreme view ; but I shall suppose, for when discussing the principles of this new
the sake of argument, as I have a perfect constitution. It is urged that it will only
right to do, that we have that objection be used in the event of some vital disturb-
able person, the unscrupulous politician, ance--for the settlement of some vital prin-
in power.
ciple—I would point out that if the dispute
An Hon. MEMBER : There are a good is so great as to require special legislation in
many of them !
this particular form and it is special legis-
Mr. LEAKE: Yes, I believe there are. lation—we ought not to be asked to legis-
His object is to have an amendment of late in ignorance of the circumstances, and
the constitution in some particular direc- we cannot by any possibility or stretch of
tion. It is forced onward by gentle stages. the imagination declare in what particular
Perhaps the main object he has in view is circumstances the application of this ex-
veiled; but, ultimately he gets this ques- traordinary remedy would be needful. So
tion of the amendment of the constitution why should we, I repeat, be asked to speci-
up to the referendum stage; then every- ally legislate unless we know really what
thing is disclosed, and we find out at the we have to legislate about? It has been
last moment what object he has in view. asked, " What is it that keeps respon-
Then it is too late. The question will go sible government or any government in
to the people, and the people without the force-what is it that forces good govern-
proper medium of parliament will declare ment on the administration ?" I rather
in favour of the alteration of the constitu- fancy that it is the fear of revolt. If,
tion, and, perhaps, violate that for which then, we are to have the question of revolt
we have battled and are battling the cropping up, it is better that we should
niaintenance of equal state rights.
have a revolution at an early stage rather
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: An amend- than at a later one-better that we should
ment of the constitution must be dealt with have it before the application of the re-
by special referendum, under clause 114 ! ferendum than after it. No one can say
Mr. LEAKE: We are now discussing that the referendum will prove to be that
the question of whether we shall or shall political panacea for all evils wbich it is
not have a referendum, or any particular hoped and intended it should be. But
method of dealing with deadlocks, and if what seems to me to be one of the worst
you get the thin end of the referendum features of this proposal is that it is sought
wedge in, you will never get it out again. thus to ingraft an entirely new principle
If you have the referendum in one instance, upon this constitution. As the hon. mem-
you admit its principle, and you cannot ber, Mr. Symon, very ably put it this ·
then successfully fight against it. Of course afternoon, we have up to the present time
I am only expressing my own views. I do been engaged in building up a structure;
not suppose for a moment that anything but now, by the introduction of this new
I may say to-night will influence the vote principle, we begin the ceremony of knock-
of any hon. member ; but I shall be con- ing down. It is a new controlling force,
tented if hon. gentlemen will listen to what
the limits of which cannot at the present
I have to say, and criticise my remarks moment be either defined or anticipated
and tear them to pieces afterwards, if they ---a new controlling force entirely. If at
like, to their hearts' content. If the re- this late hour we are asked to consider
ferendum obtains, it will, undoubtedly, this new controlling force, we ought to be
give to the larger states a dominating in- careful how we adopt it, and not take too
fluence, which has never been contemplated much for granted. These principles can-
2 U
618
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.1
not be applied in practice, although they I think, properly so, as a democratic con-
have been suggested by theorists. This stitution. I believe that every Australian
referendum, this new controlling force, is an politician is a democrat in the sense that
element in the constitution which, it seems he desires to protect and maintain the
to me, will prove to have been conceived right of the people. That is a democracy
by chance, nurtured in error and applied at of intelligence and common-sense, not a
maturity to conditions which, from our pre- democracy which recognises rule by clamour
sent standpoint, are quite unexpected if and agitation. We are all democrats if we
not absolutely abnormal. That is the risk are imbued with these ideas; and seeing
we run by this attempt at experimental that this is so, we must take care that this
legislation. We have had no practical test democratic engine, the referendum, does
of the referendum in any part of the not blow up democracy. No doubt its aim
British dominions; yet we are asked to and object is to prevent deadlocks; but
accept it notwithstanding all the dangers whether it will succeed in its object, I am
which have been pointed out to us by many not in a position to say. I can merely
speakers. We have been given certain speculate, and express it as an opinion
state rights with one hand, and it is now that it will not attain that object. We
proposed that we should be deprived of shall always have this held over our heads
those rights by the application of the refer- in terrorem, we shall always know in par-
endum. It is of no use to tell us that these “liament that there is behind this parlia-
powers will never be exercised. If they mentary power that other greater force
are created by the constitution, though
which can be used in spite of parliament.
they may be dormant for a time, so sure as That was ably put by the hon. member,
we exist, some politician will say in the Mr. Symon. Again, on this question of
future, " We will now do by means of this democracy, let us not lose sight of what
extreme remedy, this awful engine, this re-
the hon. member, Mr. Symon, pointed out,
ferendum, that which we have not hitherto that there are two democracies, the demo-
been able to persuade parliament and the cracy of the commonwealth and the demo-
states to assent to." I feel very strongly cracy of the states. If you put those two
upon this question, and I was heartily glad elements into conflict of course trouble
to hear the right hon. member, Mr. Kings- will arise, but you cannot apply the refer-
ton, say that rather than accept the referen- endum without the aid of those two pos-
dum he would stump his own colony in oppo- sibly conflicting bodies. Then I say that
sition to federation. I am perfectly certain
those who advocate the referendum as a
that hon. members know that that state- possible deterrent for conflict and a pos-
ment was not uttered as a mere threat; but sible cure for deadlock have altogether
that it was the outcome and the expression overshot the mark. They had far better
of his deliberate opinion. We know that adhere to that which they have hitherto
the right hon. gentleman represents one
contended for, the good sense, the common-
phase of democracy in Australia which has sense of the people; and here I re-echo
given rise to speculation and to discussion. this sentiment and say, trust the people,
In this connection it is very remarkable to trust our constitution as we know it.
see how extraordinary are the ramifications Admit of no fresh, new fangled notion to
of democracy. We find the democracy of which no test can possibly be applied for
South Australia opposed to the democracy years and years to come. Let us act
of Victoria, and yet the constitution which under our constitution as we know it,
we are building up has been lauded, and, and as we understand it; let us trust to
[Mr. Leake.
Commonwealth of
619
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
our parliaments and to the good sense of have provided, lest matters cutside the
the people. I am against the referendum. taxation be improperly foisted into bills to
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South be sent from one house to the other, that
Wales) [8.18]: I have waited some time laws imposing taxation shall deal with the
before taking any part in this debate, imposition of taxation only. We have
and it was my inclination to wait a little provided that laws imposing taxation, ex-
longer; but I am afraid differences are de- cept those imposing duties of customs on
veloping themselves which, if we do not imports, or imposing excise duties, shall
exercise the greatest caution, must bring deal only with one subject of taxation.
great danger to this movement; and that That is to avoid matters of taxation being
danger, I am afraid, will be accentuated so mixed in bills as to prevent a chamber
the more any among us resolve that at all from exercising its independent right of
hazards we will proceed to extremes in one dealing with one subject of taxation, be-
direction or another. My own opinion cause there happens to be in a bill a
has been made perfectly clear that I do subject of taxation with which it agrees,
not think there is an absolute neces- and another with which it disagrees. We
sity, in the working of the constitution, to have provided further that the expendi-
make any artificial provision against what ture for services, other than the ordinary
are called deadlocks. I expressed myself annual services under what is generally
sufficiently clearly in Adelaide upon that known as the appropriation bill, shall
point, and I go a long way with the Right be provided for by separate bills. By
Hon. Sir John Forrest in saying that most these provisions we have guarded against
of those circumstances out of which dead- that aggressive expedient of tacking,
locks, as they are called, ordinarily arise- and those other forms of aggression which
that is to say, deadlocks with reference to have been frequent cause of irritation to
money bills--have been provided against chambers when they have found them-
in this constitution as it stands. It is pro- selves, as they have thought sometimes, in
vided with perfect clearness that no bill moments of passion, unduly thwarted by
dealing with money can originate in any the other house. Having done all these
other place than the house of representa- things, we have made a great provi-
tives. That is to say, no tax or appropri- sion against the possible occurrence of
ation bill, with the mere exception of those deadlocks; but I must still remind my-
cases in which provision is made for the self that where, notwithstanding these
imposition of fines, or the demand and re- provisions, a deadlock on a financial mat-
covery of fees for services arising under ter does occur, the fact that the proceed-
an act of parliament, and such like mat- ing, which is unjust and which is aggres-
ters, as to which everyone, however demo- sive, can no longer be taken by the one
cratic, is agreed that any strict reading of chamber towards the other, renders it
a constitution which would deprive a second much more probable that the deadlock will
chamber of the power of originating a use- occur about some such matter as affords a
fulmeasure merelyincidentally dealing with reasonably good cause to the chamber which
them is an absurdity. We have gone further initiates the financial provisions ; in other
than that. We have prevented the senaté words, we take out of the hands of the house
from having co-ordinate powers to that ex- of representatives the power of inflicting
tent; but we have provided also that it may an injustice or committing undue aggres-
not amend any tax bill, and that it may not sion, and, with that power removed, if
amend the annual appropriation bill. We there is then a conflict between the tivo
620
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
houses, it is much more probable that the sense of the term alone. I am rather in-
chamber which sends the bill up to the clined to think that any provision which
other has, if not right on its side, at any rate, has to be made might rightly only be made
some cause which will justify it in taking for that class of deadlock—that a stoppage
a stand. That is an occurrence which is which arises on any matter of ordinary legis-
not specifically provided for in the consti- lation, because the two houses cannot come
tution. I admit that all the cases which to an agreement at first, is not a thing which
are left for that operation are cases in is properly designated by the term "dead-
which the second chamber will reject the lock," because the working of the constitu-
bill will exercise what is called its power tion goes on the constitutional machine
of veto, although that term is sometimes proceeds notwithstanding a disagreement.
used in a way which is apt to confuse The machinery of government does not
the power of the Crown in giving or with- come to a stop, because it is only when
holding assent to a bill, with the power of the fuel of the machine of government is
a legislative chamber in giving or with- withheld that the machine comes to a stop;
holding its assent. “Veto" is the term pro- and that fuel is money. I am inclined,
perly applicable to the exercise of the then, to think that we might well consider
power of the Crown, and "rejection" is whether, if we make provision for dead-
the term properly applicable to the exer- locks, we should not leave the relations of
cise of the rights of a legislative chamber. the houses to the ordinary operation of their
But recollect we lay down in the consti- powers of adjustment between themselves.
tution all the time, by not taking away the While some of us may make some conces-
right of rejection, that when a bill is re- sion to popular opinion when there is a
jected it is the exercise of a right. Now, danger of a stoppage for even a short time
only those cases of rejection will arise of the fuel of the engine—that is to say, a
under this constitution, with respect to stoppage of the taxation or expenditure of
money bills, which do not arise from
any
the country, there may be then a necessity
of the causes provided against. While I in the interest of the country to make sonie
am talking about deadlocks, I should like provision which will enable the machine to
to inquire, what is the general acceptance go on, still I cannot forget that there is very
of the meaning of that term amongst hon. great weight in the argument that artificial
members? To my mind,“ deadlock” is provision may be positively harmful if it is
not a term which is strictly applicable to
carried too far. It may accentuate differ-
any case except that in which the consti- ences, and if itsubstitutes the control of one
tutional machine is prevented from pro- house for that process of evolution which
perly working. I am in very grave doubt ought ordinarily to prevail between two
whether the term can be strictly applied houses, it is likely to produce even more
to any case except a stoppage of the legis- irritation in the body politic, than will the
lative machinery arising out of conflict evolutionary process. There may, therefore,
upon the finances of the country.
be dangers in making artificial provision ;
Mr. HIGGINS : Is it not a mistake to say but, on the other hand, who can fail to recog-
that these provisions are simply for dead- nise that there is a strong popular dread
locks?
of allowing disputes to work themselves
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am only out, and that there seems to be a fear on
quoting the terms which have been gener-. the part of many of ourselves that there
ally used. It is a question whether provi- will be popular reluctance to adopt this
sion should be made for deadlocks in that measure unless there be some provision to
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
621
[15 SEPT., 1897,]
Australia Bill.
terminate these difficulties. We cannot about to join in the federation, and the
forget that; we cannot ignore that state fact that the others are at present perhaps
of things. Whilst I believe our people in not so rich as we, and we know they are
this colony are strong for federation, yet I not so populous—when we consider these
believe those fears which I have indicated, facts, we may well attribute to very natural
and which I think are widely entertained, reasons, and to the very natural desire for
can under no circumstances be underrated self-preservation, not for aggression, the
by us. Therefore, it is our duty, I take fears which are entertained lest provisions
it, even if there are some of us, like my- of this kind, if carried to extremes, may ulti-
self, who think that this machine would mately lead to their absorption. I can well
work smoothly, who think as people who understand such fears being entertained by
have studied constitutions and constitu- any one of us who live in the larger. states
tional law, that this machine will work as if we lived in one of the smaller states.
smoothly if we leave it alone in its present We have to consider the question whether
state as if we added provisions to it, still these fears are well grounded. This more-
we must recollect that our measure has to ment, therefore, is in a most critical position
be submitted to the popular will, and now, and I rise largely for the purpose of
that if the people entertain a fear, which expressing my own opinion that this is the
we cannot characterise as altogether un- moment when the wisdom and patriotism
reasonable, then our confidence in the of hon. members of this Convention will
safety of the machine which we put before be put to their greatest test, and when
them ought, perhaps, not to prevent us it is most incumbent upon us to come to
from surrounding it with additional se- a decision that will be characterised by
curities, if it is their desire first that these judgment and public spirit. That is a re-
securities should be provided, and if it is mark which I wish to apply to both sides,
our feeling that unless they are provided and I wish to say this in a spirit of perfect
we may endanger the adoption of the ma- impartiality. On the whole, I think it will
chinery. But, on the other hand, there is be wise, and I think it will be public
quite as strong a feeling the other way, spirited, to make some provision for the
quite as strong a dread on the part of the settlement of conflicts between the two
less populous states that an artificial pro- houses in certain cases. As far as this
vision, if carried altogether too far, will so movement is concerned, that way safety
tend to efface the interests of individual lies. If as I think we shall agree to
states, so tend, as they put it, to wipe that, on the part of many it will be con-
them and their interests out, as to lead sidered that some provision is a neces-
to such a diminution of power and of sity, and others will consider that it is at
prestige in the component states, as will any rate a wise thing to make this con-
eventually lead to their absorption. I cession to popular feeling, and also that
am not sure—but I shall come to that by having it we are certainly not lessening
part of my argument presently—that that the importance or safety of the measure.
dread is altogether well grounded ; yet, at If we come to this conclusion, what sort of
the same time, it is a very natural dread, provision should be made ? I entertain the
and it is a dread which we cannot blame opinion that in the first instance the provi-
any of those who are joining in this great sion should be one that is constitutional as
work with us for entertaining. When we being in accordance with the principle of
consider the great powers and importance responsibility. The arguments upon which
of two of the states which we hope are the present clauses with regard to the money
622
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
powers of the two houses were largely sup- extent, of a dissolution of the senate, be-
ported is that we want the government of cause we provide for the retirement of one
this federation to be upon the lines of re- half of its members, and their submission
sponsibility which are familiar to us—that to the people every third year. Then
is to say, the government is to be a respon- what can be the reasonable objection, if
sible government in principle. A dissolu- you must make some provision for dead-
tion differs from a referendum in this, at locks, to submitting the other popular
the outset, that a dissolution is an assertion chamber to dissolution just as you submit
of the principle of responsibility, whilst the that chamber which was originally called
referendum tends to weaken the sense of the popular chamber? They are both popu-
responsibility. I expressed myself, how- lar chambers. I call upon my hon. friend,
ever, so fully on that subject at Adelaide, Mr. Carruthers, to testify with me upon
that I do not wish to open an old question this point, because he even went so far
by referring to it to any extent. I say, at as to express the fear that the senate
any rate, in the first instance, our provi- would be too popular a chamber. We
sion should be one that will be constitu- need have no fear of that if it be subject
tional, made to preserve the principle of to the same responsibility as is the other
responsibility both of ministers and mem- chamber.
bers. Under these constitutional provi- The Hon. S. FRASER : It has not the
sions the very mainspring of responsibility same power!
in the lower houses, as we call them, is
The Hon. E. BARTON: But it has
the probability of a dissolution at any
power in dealing with the finances of the
crisis--a dissolution, that is to say, of the
country; and if you are to make provision
house, which, in ordinary constitutions, is
for deadlocks alone as to the finances of
the house elected upon the widest suffrage,
the country, it will be found hard to resist
and is called the people's house. But here
the argument that the same influence to
you have a difference; because this is a
which one house is amenable should apply
constitution which provides for two houses,
to both.
both of which are to be chosen by popular
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
election, and both of which are to be elected
Ministers are responsible to one house !
on the same suffrage. Well, it would puzzle
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is no
any one, I think, in reasoning the matter
out, to come to a conclusion that the safe-
reason why members of both houses should
guard of responsibility is one which is at-
not be responsible to their constituents.
tachable only to one of these two chambers.
An Hon, MEMBER : The trouble comes
It would puzzle anyone to argue the mat-
from the lower house !
ter out if he were also assured that it is only The Hon. E. BARTON: It may, and
attachable to that chamber, because it is in this constitution it may also come from
what we call the lower chamber. Responsi- the other. Strong as I have been in the
bility is attached to that chamber because assertion that, on lines of reason, some
it is in the ordinary constitutions the repre- power to deal with money bills should be
sentative chamber. It is the one that was given to the senate, only provided they do
elected by the people, and which returns to not interfere too largely with the working
the people for a ratification of its acts. of the machine of responsible government,
Here, in this constitution, we have the dif- that does not bind me to the conclusion
ference that both houses are so constituted. that when these powers are given to them
And we admit the principle, to a certain they should not in the last resort at any
[The Hon. E. Barton.
I
Conrinonwealth of
623
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
rate be made to feel that in case of crises that is to say, the liability of members to
they must act in the manner they deem a dissolution, with all its attendant dan-
to be acceptable to those who sent them gers, which we have vividly in our recol-
there.
lections, and all its expense, as to which,
The Hon. S. FRASER : Not at the dicta- of course, we should speak with bated
tion of the government !
breath. If there is something which ex-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not care ercises a very strong influence upon the
at whose dictation, because if a chamber members of an ordinary lower house, then,
be independent it will accept no dicta- when you have two houses electedin a similar
tion, if it feel that it is strongly founded way, and proceeding from a similar source,
in the esteem and respect of its constitu- why should not the moral influence that is
encies, it will be independent. In going sufficient for the members of the one be
beyond that foundation, it is trespassing practically sufficient for the members of the
upon its trust.
Having gone so far, other? When I speak of moral influence
you will have merely asserted the prin- I mean this: I can quite see that if you
ciple of responsibility to the extent re- have a double dissolution carried out, there
quired when you have two houses proceed is the possibility of things in the end re-
ing from a similar source, and elected on maining as they were.
That I look upon
the same suffrage. Then the question re. as a possibility—perhaps not much more.
mains: Will it be necessary to go
further? But then I see, on the other hand, a very
As to that, I entertain the gravest doubts. strong probability that the subjection of
I am not blind to the fact that there are the member of the second chamber, as well
many members of our own Legislative as the member of the first, to this liability
Assembly who think that we ought to go to dissolution, with what I have described
further-I am not blind to the fact that as its dangers and expenses--I see a strong
there are some persons outside who think probability that the subjection of both of
Certainly, if the necessity arises, I them to the like treatment may induce a
shall not be blind to any force of public disposition to mutual concession and pro-
opinion. But the question that confronts
per adjustment which may often, if not
us at once here is : will this double always, save even the trouble of carrying
dissolution be effective ? If it be effective
out a double dissolution. I believe, and have
for the purpose for which we seek it, then always believed, that constitutional provi-
it is not necessary for us to proceed fur-
sions are, in many cases, more valuable by
ther. Without expressing too strong an their moral influences than by their practi-
opinion upon that subject, I think it is
cal operation, and I am inclined to think
worth considering whether it will not be a that this will be a case of that sort. But
sufficient provision. I do not wish to ex- it has been argued-and I have to refer to
press myself with finality upon this ques- this-that the result of the double dissoluz-
tion, because I think that, having arrived tion will be to leave matters as they are.
at such a critical point as we have, the Those of us who have experience of disso-
man who expresses himself with utter
lutions in these colonies know that it is
finality upon a matter of this kind is cer-
not at all a frequent thing that the result
tainly not observing the duty he was sent of the dissolution of one chamber is to
here to discharge. The moral force of the leave things as they are. If we were to
double dissolution will be very strong, and exercise our memories, we should find, not-
we must not neglect the consideration of withstanding recent experiences in this
moral influence in a case of this kind- colony, that the results of appeals to the
SO.
..
624 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.1 Australia Bill.
people have been, far more often than not, members from that course of duty which
adverse to those who havedeclared for those their liability to a dissolution, instead of
appeals. If we are to have the experience to a referendum, would make them feel
of the past justified by the events of the that they must stand by. But there is stil}
future, what is there to make us suppose
this to be considered : If you first apply
that the results of a double dissolution will the double dissolution you have taken
necessarily be to leave things as they are, advantage of that principle of responsi-
when the past has told us that generally bility, that liability to popular judgment,
the result of a dissolution has been to which is the safeguard of the constitution,
leave things as they were not? Then we and if afterwards you find your question
must recollect that the moral force has not unsolved, and you then think it necessary
spent itself at that point, because if an to apply some form of referendum-I must
agreement is not come to, and there is a admit at this point that the referendum so
power of double dissolution, it can be again used, and after that test, has not so many
exercised, and the same moral force which objections on the face of it as seem to me
I described as acting upon members of to attach to it when it is applied direct,
both houses before one dissolution, will be and for the reason that it is only used
intensified by the dread of another. . Are then after the application of the principle
not all these things very strong factors in of ministerial responsibility. When the
the consideration of this matter? Is there application of that principle is exhausted,
not some reason for us to think that when
and when you have got out of ministers
we have providedone means for the solution and members all you can get, by making
of the deadlock, experience and common- them face that responsibility, then as the
sense will go some distance to lead us to last resort it may be possible that the
suppose that that one provision will be referendum will be a good thing. But just
sufficient? But I must admit this : If it see the dangers that may confront us when
is considered by the Convention that this we have to choose between two sorts of
provision is not sufficient, and if it is referendum. One is what is called the
considered also that there is a force of dual referendum, that is, a referendum by
public opinion, which makes it advis- which the opinion of the people is taken,
able to make further provision, I find and in which an affirmative result on the
myself in very grave doubt as to what part of a majority of the states and a
the next provision should be. For this majority of the electors, all of them voting
reason: First, I have already expressed on the same occasion, will carry the mea-
myself against the referendum in matters sure, and in which the defection of one
of ordinary legislation, and I would say
branch or the other will lose the measure.
that while I would entirely trust the re- That is the dual referendum. Then there
ferendum for the making of a constitution, is the general referendum, which makes so
or for the amendment of a constitution, I direct an appeal to one of those branches
do so, because, in those cases, the prin- that the very affirmation or rejection of
ciple of the responsibility of members and the measure by the mass vote of the people,
ministers, which is at the root of our sys- taken in their proportion of numbers alone,
tem of government, is there not consider- will mean the life or the death of the mea-
ably involved. The referendum, as applied
We have to choose between those
to the ordinary purposes of government is, two kinds of referendum; and here is the
I think, calculated to sap that principle of point where I see such very great difi-
responsibility, to relieve both ministers and culties, because I admit, saving the ques-
sure,
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
625
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion of the responsibility of ministers and great difficulty about the general refer-
members, that in the dual referendum there endum seems to me to be the possible in-
is more justice than in the general refer- justice, and so I put it that you have to
endum. I admit that; but if you once
choose between those two forms of refer-
get beyond the point of the double disso- endum—the first one the more just, and
lution, you are doing so because you come the less effective; the second one much
to the conclusion that it is not effective- the more effective, but, possibly, the less
that it has not done what was required, just.
and something more is needed. One great Mr. HIGGINS : What is the possible
difficulty about the dual referendum is, injustice ?
that while it may be more just than the The Hon. E. BARTON: The dispute
other, it is liable to the trouble of not on the very face of it is a dispute between
being effective, because it is as possible in the people and the states as represented in
the case of the dual referendum, as in the two separate chambers. It is a dispute
case of a dissolution, that parties and houses between the people at large, represented
will be left where they were. I do not say according to numbers in the house of re-
that these are insuperable objections, but presentatives, and the states, which, of
they are objections that may be fairly urged. course, means the people of the states, as
Then any sort of referendum is liable represented in the senate. You have two
to this objection, perhaps, that it has parties to this dispute. Now we have a
not the same effectiveness to bring about maxim which is as applicable to our ordin-
an agreement between two dissenting, two ary concerns as it is applicable in law, and
quarrelling houses, as a dissolution has, it is that nobody should be allowed to be
for the reason that the member does not a judge in his own cause. It seems to me
have to go to his constituents on the refer- that the difficulty about the general refer-
endum. He is safe in his seat. On a dis- endum is that, inasmuch as the people ac-
solution he is not safe in his seat, and, cording to numbers on the one hand, and
therefore, he wants to avoid a dissolution, the states on the other, are, through their
and, consequently, will be impelled to come representatives the parties to this dispute,
to a reasonable conclusion, instead of hag- if you apply to one of them, namely, to
gling about what, after all, in some of our the people, to settle it, or if you apply to
deadlocks, have been mere trifles. There the other, that is to the states, to settle
is that difficulty about the dual refer- it, in either case you are asking an in-
endum. First, I believe it is more just terested party to decide his own cause.
than the direct referendum ; next, I be- The dual referendum gets rid of this diffi-
lieve it is less effective. Let us come to culty ; but it is objectionable upon the
the other alternative. Let us discuss the ground of ineffectiveness.
I want to point
general referendum. There can be no out these defects with impartiality. I am
question about its probable effectiveness- not speaking against the proposal to make
that is to say, it will mean decision one provision for deadlocks, and I am not for-
way or the other, a flat decision, one way getting that you must have due regard to
or the other-but, as I have said, it is the force of public opinion. There is a fur-
open to the same objection as the other ther objection urged against the general re-
referendum: it has not the persuasive effect ferendum which is only, though in another
and moral force on members of parlia- form, the objection which I have just de-
ment that a dissolution has, simply because scribed- and I wish these objections to be
it leaves them safe in their seats. The taken, not so much as my own, as the
626
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
15 Sept., 1897.1
say
objections which have arisen in the course not found that a central government situ-
of this debate. This further objection is the ated in a portion of this vast expansive
fear that where the dispute is one between country was ineffective to deal with a
the people at large as represented in the certain class of affairs which were mani-
house of representatives and the states as festly and really affairs of provincial poli-
represented in the senate, the foregone, or I tics? That was the discovery which was
will the very probable victory upon all made, and the result of it was the separa-
occasions of the one party to the dispute will tion of the other colonies. The discovery
tend to whittle away what is called the in- which has been made since, and it was
dividuality, but what I prefer to call the in- made within a few years after the separa-
terests of the states. There is also a fear tion of Victoria from New South Wales
that a succession of applications of this was, not that this separation had not
remedy for deadlocks may tend towards been a right step to take, not that the
unification. The hon. member, Mr. Tren- causes which brought it about did not
with, dealt with this question, and argued still exist, but that there were other mat-
it rather cleverly. His argument-and the ters, quite outside matters of mere pro-
hon. member will correct me if I do not vincial politics, which ought to be dealt
state it rightly-really amounted to this, with by a central and common authority.
that the circumstances of the severance of That was the principle according to which
the other colonies from New South Wales, Wentworth, Charles Gavan Duffy, Deas-
and of the present desire for unity, would, Thomson, and others worked; and the dis-
when well-considered, lead us to the con- covery was made as early as 1857. That is
clusion that the proper remedy for the pre-
what has troubled the wisest men in these
sent state of things was unification, or a
colonies from that date to this, which has
tendency to unification.
excited all the friction, and caused the
Mr. TRENWITH : No, my argument was
demand for a federation to be what I believe
this, that separation is necessary for most is an irresistible demand. But what is the
of the purposes of government; kut in kind of union? The causes which led to tho
performing the functions of government separation of these states still exist-that
as separate colonies, we have learnt that is to say, the difficulty of governing provin-
there are some things which we cannot do cial or municipal affairs from a common
separately so well as we could do them centre, and the inability to deal with
collectively, and that for those purposes national questions, has been the thorn in
we should unite.
our side. Consequently, the terms of our
The Hon. E. BARTON: I quite agree union must be these : First, that we shall
with my hon. friend in the way he puts have a general authority, with sufficient
his argument; but we must remember power to deal with those matters which
that while what he said is perfectly true, are not provincial and municipal, and at
the term "unite” is capable of different the same time we must so safeguard that
significations. To unite nay mean to unite authority that in carrying out its functions
in federation, or in a state of unification, it will not, little by little, take away from
We are still left to decide the question, in the functions of provincial politics what
which
way
should we unite? What was - should still remain with the states.
the way in which some of the colonies Mr. HIGGINS : You cannot take them
separated from the colony which, if it is away under a written constitution !
not arrogating too much to use the term, The Hon. E. BARTON: You cannot
may be called the mother colony ? Was it do everything, I admit, by a written con-
:
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Comnzonwealth of
627
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
stitution, but that is no reason why your in laying these considerations before hon,
written constitution should not save you members I do not bind myself, because I
from certain disasters. I do not think consider there is a higher duty than exer-
that the argument therefore that has been cising any one individual opinion or any
used is sufficient to make us forget that in one political principle laid upon us, that
a constitution there must be certain safe- is that if, without making too great a sac-
guards to prevent on the one hand the rifice of opinion or principle, and without
federation being under the control of the making any sacrifice of what is just to our
states, or on the other hand the states being own colonies, we can frame a constitution
under the control of the federation. Canada that will be accepted, it is our duty to
illustrates the whole position. Consider the sink individual opinions as much as we
position of Upper and Lower Canada when honestly can. For that reason, in pointing
they separated. We know what happened out this difficulty, let it be perfectly under-
there. As they were when united after stood, that if the pinch comes, if it comes
Lord Durham's despatch, which practically to a pinch about having a constitution or
brought about their union, when they made having none, I am prepared to support
an amalgamated state, and as they are now, before the people the constitution, even
as members of a federation, we shall see if it contains a general referendum. I am
the problem exemplified over again, that not going to use the threats which have
is, when you come to bring two large colo- been used. I do not think we have been
nies or states together as you might do in wise in making threats. I remember a
the case of New South Wales and Victoria similar occasion occurring in 1891 when
for the purposes of union. If you are going à certain gentleman, whom we have no
to do what was at first done in Canada, longer in politics, said something about his
and give over to the parliament of the carpet-bag. I believe I had some influence
union legislative authority over both those on that occasion in preventing the appear-
large states in all their relations, and with ance on the scene of carpet-bags. I do think
regard to municipal and provincial affairs, we must not be precipitate in saying if
you will have such an unwieldy form of we put this or that in the constitution you
government that the machine cannot go may say good-bye to federation. When
That was found out in Canada, and you get such a case as occurred yesterday,
that is why Canada is now federated. it is a right thing for us to be frank with
And the federation of Canada, instead of each other. It is a right thing for us to
being a step towards unification, has been point out what we believe to be the public
a step away from amalgamation. If we opinion of our colony. I believe I took a
apply these lessons in our own case, we
hand in doing that. I am perfectly willing
ought to be very careful to see this: that to take a hand in doing that at any time;
whatever step we take to solve deadlocks, but at the same time I do not think I
or for any other purpose, we should not be should be justified in saying this : if you
parties to anything which would tend to put this provision in the constitution, I will
wards either a weak federation on the one stump the country against the constitu-
hand or the swamping of the states on the tion. I do not want to be with my hon.
other. Now, the objection to the general and learned friend in his strong opinion
referendum seems to me to be chiefly this against the general referendum, an opinion
tendency to destroy state interests—and which I, to a certain extent, share, and
I wish to say at the present stage, lest which led him to say more than he would
I should be misinterpreted afterwards, that probably say now.
On,
628
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897. ]
is ;
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I. in view, act with caution in such a crisis
think it better to be candid !
as this, because the work we are doing is
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am quite in so entirely new. We are devising novel
favour of our pointing out to each other remedies to meet circumstances which we
what we think the opinion in our colony certainly cannot predict with accuracy.
but the time for threats is not now. We cannot predict how this constitution
If there is ever a time for threats in a will work. We can only form, from our
body of this kind, all I wish to say about experience of political and constitutional
that. is, that I would implore hon. mem- matters, a reasonable judgment as to how
bers on one side and the other not to be it will work. The working of the Ameri-
carried away for or against a certain course can Constitution, in many respects, has
by what may be said in the warmth of disappointed the expectations of its foun-
debate. If this constitution in the end ders, and I believe in many respects it
contains a general referendum, I believe agreeably disappointed, even in their own
can reconcile it to my conscience to support lifetime, the expectations of its founders.
the bill. At the same time I have always We may say that in the case of Canada
spoken against the referendum, although there were many prophets of evil. The mer-
I admit, as I have already said, if the re- chants of Toronto, I believe, were as much
ferendum is so safeguarded that a double
afraid of the loss of their supremacy in
dissolution precedes it, I believe its im- Canada as some of the merchants in Syd-
pingement on ministerial responsibility, ney are to-day. All those predictions were
and members' responsibility, will not be so falsified by events in that case ; but it is
severe. But I cannot be led into the as- not that so much I am thinking of as this :
sertion that I will oppose this constitution that, if facts falsify predictions in cases of
if it contains a certain provision, because
commercial events and results, they may
I think we ought to be a little more cau- be expected to falsify predictions in the
tious than that; and I say that with the case of constitutions. Therefore, while I
very highest respect for all who have pre- agree that we must have fair regard for
ceded me.
May I say that the occasion public opinion, we must take care that we
presents itself to me as being one in which make a machine that will be still, in the
we must have due regard for public opinion? main, in accordance with the opinions which
I think we are all of us in a position now, we were sent here reasonably to put for-
at least, to gauge public opinion to some ward and to insist upon ; and, of course,
extent in other colonies as well as our in doing that, I am quite sure that we shall
own.
do it with far more force, as well as with
The Hon. S. FRASER : It may not be far more grace, if, by mutual concession,
public opinion six months hence !
there are no ragged ends to our constitu-
The Hon. E. BARTON: My hon. friend, tion, but it represents the rounded force
perhaps, considers public opinion more of that modified opinion concurred in by
fickle than I do. I have great reliance sensible men; and I believe we may yet
on public opinion with regard to federa- find a way out of this difficulty on those
tion; but, nevertheless, I think we can all
trifle with public opinion, however strong The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
it may be in favour of a measure which we (Victoria) [9.6]: I quite agree with my
desire. All I am urging now is, that while hon. friend, Mr. Barton, that we have now
we are to have due regard for publicopinion, reached another very critical position with
we must also, keeping that public opinion regard to federation. We have in our
.
.
very lines.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
629
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
past meetings had to meet several critical great extent that it is not probable that
positions. By mutual forbearance and what we have referred to as deadlocks will
by compromise, I believe that up to the occur very frequently in the future. We
present time we have been able to sur- cannot imagine that leading men from the
mount all those difficulties, and I think various colonies, chosen to the high and
now, once again, the Convention will do honorable position of representatives of
as our leader has asked us : exhibit that their fellow-colonists, either in the house
public spirit which has characterised our of representatives or in the senate, will de-
deliberations in the past. I agree with liberately do anything which may be in-
our leader that we should be frank with jurious to the interests of the whole of
each other. I have endeavoured all through Australia ; and I believe that, whereas
these deliberations to fairly state my we now, in our various parliaments, are
opinions, whilst I have been perfectly pre- led very often by small parochial feelings
pared to fall in with the views of ihe to quarrel among ourselves, those who
majority, if it be at all possible. I say meet in the larger assembly will recognise
now that even if this bill contains pro- and realise that all the dividing lines—the
visions of which I have not approved, and supposed lines of demarcation between the
of which I do not approve, still, unless various colonies-must, if we are to have true
they are very strongly opposed to my views, federation, be for nearly all purposes swept
unless they are very strongly opposed to away; and whilst they are there, they
the interests of the colony of which I have will look upon themselves, not as represen-
the honor of being a representative, I will tatives of some portion of our great com-
feel it my bounden duty to exercise my monwealth, but as sent there to do the
influence amongst the people of Victoria, best they can in the interests of the whole
to endeavour to induce them to accept of Australia, and that being so, I think
every compromise at which we may arrive. that these deadlocks which we have heard
We have listened to-night to more weighty so much of in our various discussions, are
words of wisdom from our esteemed leader, not likely very often to occur. At the
and I do not desire, in the few remarks same time, there is no doubt that circum-
I intend to make, to say one single word stances may arise under which they may
which may take away from the good effect occur. We here, having thought out and
those words must have had on all the considered the matter in our own minds,
representatives present. I can do that
may anticipate that they will not occur ;
more honestly and more earnestly, as it is still we cannot overlook the fact that
well known to my colleagues that I have there is a strong feeling amongst those
differed from them and from the represen- who have not intimately studied the vari-
tatives of the other large colony with re- ous phases of this question that these
gard to what has been called the mass re- differences—strong differences which can-
ferendum. To show to our friends from not be reconciledmay possibly occur be-
the smallest colonies that there is no com- tween the two houses of the legislature.
bination amongst the representatives of That being so, I think we are bound in
the larger colonies to do them any injury framing this constitution in order to meet
or injustice, my hon. friend has fairly told that public opinion which we cannot wholly
us that the bill, as now prepared, has re- resist, even though we may think that it
moved many dangers and difficulties which is not absolutely correct, we are bound in
we, otherwise, might have had to contend justice to the various colonies to make
against; and I agree with him to a very some provision for the purpose of meeting
630 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
those deadlocks if they should occur.
At constituents—because every three years
the same time, I am quite in accord with one-half of them will have to submit their
those who say that in making this provi- views and their actions to the will of the
sion we must be careful that we do no in- people—by those two means we shall to a
justice to those whom we have been in the great extent ascertain the views of the
habit of calling the smaller colonies. One country on the various matters which will
thing that we have to do is to see that have to be discussed and decided at different
the will of the people is carried out; but times.
when we speak of the people, we must The Hon. S. FRASER : What more is
not forget, as was pointed out by the hon. necessary ?
and learned member, Mr. Barton, that The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: But
we have to regard the people as indivi- still extraordinary circumstances may arise,
duals, and as constituting each state; and and it is to guard against those extraordi-
therefore, in dealing with this matter we nary circumstances that we have to make
must be careful in carrying the provision the provision which I think we ought to in-
into effect that we do not do what it has clude in the bill. Now, having admitted-
been suggested we may possibly do, lead whether by way of right, as some claim, or
to unification-unification with a larger by way of concession, as others describe it--
meaning than my hon. friend, Mr. Tren- equal representation to the smaller states,
with has given to it. That, I think, is the I feel that we have no ground on which
real fear which those who represent the we can justly attempt to undermine by
small states have brought so prominently any provision that equal representation
before us to-day, and on other occasions. I and I do think, after having listened very
am at one with those who say that we patiently to the arguments that have been
ought not to allow the government of the brought forward for and against the pro-
day to dominate the house. I am quite posal to have a mass referendum, that if
in accord with those who say further that we were to adopt that particular proposal
we are not to allow one house to dominate we should be, to a great extent, taking
the other, unless we know that particular away from the smaller states that which
house has the people at its back, and that, in we have willingly granted them. With
endeavouring to force certain views upon the that in my mind, I came to the conclu-
other chamber, that house is simply carry- sion that to carry this particular proposal
ing out what is really the will and desire of would be inequitable and unjust. Al-
the people of the federation. It has been though I might be voting, and probably
fairly pointed out, and I agree with the would be voting, against many of my own
observation that, as a rule, the opinion of colleagues from Victoria, and also, as far as
our people will be fairly ascertained and I can gather from the tone of theirspeeches,
gathered at the various elections which against a large number of the representa-
have to take place. The house of repre- tives of New South Wales, I should have
sentatives will have every three years, at felt bound-indeed, I shall feel bound—if
the longest, to meet the electors of the the proposal be pressed to a division, to cast
various colonies; and, if public opinion is my vote against it, and in favour of the
against the views expressed by any of the - claims made by the smaller states. In
members, in all probability those members addition to that, when we see the repre-
will not regain their seats in the house; sentation here, and when we have listened
and by that means, and also by the fact to the speeches of hon, members, we must,
that the senators will have to go to their although we might be strongly in favour
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Cominonwealth of
6.31
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
of the view put forward, have come to cussed here. Some say that if you put a
the conclusion that it would be hopeless sufficient check on the government of the
for us to expect the smaller states to day no harm would be done; but we know
give us the concession involved. There that the government, having the support of
would be no chance whatever of getting great numbers, having the support of a
it from them, even as a concession, if we majority of the members in their various
could claim that it was one that was fair houses can always afford to sit quietly by
and just.
and to hear discussion, and endure even
An Hon. MEMBER : That is to say that any obstruction which may take place,
the smaller states will not be fair!
seeing that sooner or later the force of
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I numbers will come in and carry any par-
do not say that. My experience of the ticular proposal. And so it would be with
smaller states here has been that whenever this particular proposal; or, at all events,
they could fairly and equitably meet the if that fact did not exist, we cannot get rid
larger states they have willingly done so. of the position that the fear would exist in
I cannot forget that. Nor can I forget the smaller colonies that it would be done.
that in Adelaide many of the representa- We have, in dealing with this question, to
tives of the smaller states, even against see that we do not give rise to more diffi-
the wishes of a majority of their colleagues,
culties than are absolutely necessary in
threw in their lot with the larger states obtaining the assent of our people to this
when they saw that the claim was an equit particular proposal at the polls. My hon.
able claim, when they saw that by the re-
and learned friend, Mr. Barton, has argued
fusal to throw in their lot with us they that as both chambers are popular cham-
were jeopardising the great work they had bers, a double dissolution is justifiable. I
in hand. Therefore, I say now that we, agree with him entirely in that proposi-
as the larger states, while we claim that tion. I have always asserted that it is so,
the smaller states ought to help us, must
and I think that when we consider the
not expect to have all from them. Wemust constitution of the two chambers the
be prepared to give way ourselves in many strongest supporter of the senate must be
respects. While we realise that we may have prepared to admit that if doubt exists as
difficulty with our constituencies in induc- to whether that chamber is representing
ing them to accept this bill, we must not or misrepresenting the views of the people,
- forget that our friends in theother colonies then its members ought to be sent to their
may have equal, if not greater difficulty, in masters to ascertain what their wishes
inducing their constituents to vote for the really are. I can see no reason whatever
measure. If we could distinguish between why we should not apply to the senate the
state rights and other questions, I could same dissolution that is applied to the
understand that while we provided some house of representatives. It is unfair that
mode of dealing with all questions which we should penalise the one house, when a
might come under the definition of state dissolution is asked for in consequence of
rights, we might apply the mass refer- some dispute between the two chambers,
endum to all other matters. But none of and not apply the same treatment to the
us could possibly attempt to make such other chamber. If we can send only one
a distinction, and that being so, we must of the disputing parties to the people for
be prepared to allow the whole matter to their decision, surely that is very unfair
be dealt with in some other mode than to the house of representatives which may
that suggested, and which has been dis- be in the right.
A
632.
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
(15 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: You him also that public opinion would very
cannot do it now !
often have a moral force upon the con-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We tending parties. But then he tells us that
cannot do it now, because the upper houses if that fails, and matters remain as they
in all our colonies are constituted on a are, there is still a remedy in the shape of
different basis from that of the lower cham- another dissolution. Now, is it wise that,
bers. But even in our local parliaments I having had one dissolution, the ministry
fail to see any reason, where the council is and the members having taken the re-
elective, why, if the dispute is of sufficient sponsibility which he believes they ought
importance, they should not be prepared, to take, we should then, for the purpose
willingly, to accept the test, and ascertain of endeavouring to settle the dispute, once
whether they really represent the feeling more send the new house or the new houses
of those whom they assert they are pro- back to their constituents for a further
perly representing. I fail to see why the expression of opinion? I am afraid that
legislative council in any of the colonies, is a plan which would not work, and that
or why the senate we are about to create, as between that and the referendum, if
should claim to be free from the process of there are what I may, for the time-being,
dissolution-free from the power of the call two evils, I think we ought to en-
government for the time being to ask them deavour to choose the less.
to go back to the people who sent them An Hon. MEMBER : There might be a
there, to see whether they are properly dissolution almost every month!
and truly representing their views.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
The Hon. S. FRASER : The upper house think that the feeling in Victoria is very
in that case would not be a revising body, strongly in favour of a referendum as the
but would be subject to popular excite- first expedient, but in the spirit of compro-
ment!
mise, which ought to actuate us, I am pre-
An Hox. MEMBER : The House of Lords pared, and I have no doubt that many of my
is not sent to the country!
colleagues from that colony will be pre-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The pared, to say that we will agree to a mode
House of Lords, of course, is in a different of settlement which consists, in the first
position, as are also the nominee chambers instance, of something in which we do
in these colonies; but we know that if not believe so largely as we do in the re-
necessity should arise, there are means by ferendum, we will be prepared to accept,
which even these chambers can be forced as a first trial, a double dissolution, and
to obey the popular will. But that is if that fails, then, I think, we ought to
always a dangerous power, and should be prepared to go a step further. We
only be resorted to in cases of very grave all know that when we are before our
emergency. My hon. and learned friend, constituents there may be some particular
while approving of the double dissolution, point on which we ought to get a direct
tells us that he has grave doubts as to decision ; but do we on a dissolution ever
whether we are justified in going further, get that?
and he considers that the fact that mem- An Hon. MEMBER: Certainly not!
bers will have to go before their constitu- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
ents will make them very cautious and am afraid we do not. At every general
careful in the actions they take before election there will be a large number of
they allow that event to occur. I quite people who will vote either for or against
agree with him there. I quite agree with a particular candidate for personal reasons.
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT:, 1897.1
Australia Bill. 633
On a
reasons.
The Hon. F: W. HOLDER : For personal : The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
and local reasons !
do not know that we would take a refer-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: endum on a matter of that kind.
There will be many who will vote for local matter of that kind the government would
probably say, “We will wait
until a
An Hon. MEMBER: On side issues ! general election."
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : An Hon. MEMBER : Does the hon. gen-
There will be many whose vote will be tleman mean the mass referendum ?
decided by what are apparently, to others, The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
small matters, but which they regard as No, I have already said that I am
of the utmost importance, and to gain their thoroughly opposed to the mass referen-
own particular pet object, they will lay aside dum, and would not adopt that on any
every other. Unfortunately that is so: It consideration. I have said that in Vic-
is so on a dissolution, it is so at every gene- toria, in my opinion, there is a strong feel-
ral election, and, therefore, to say that we ing that a dispute should be settled, not
take the voice of the country on a dissolu- by a double dissolution, but by a refer-
tion, or at a general election, is not abso- endum; but to meet the wishes of those
lutely true in fact. The real way to take who think otherwise here, I, for one, am
it is by the referendum.
perfectly prepared to endeavour to settle
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The hon.mem- these disputes by a double dissolution, and
ber cannot show any precedent in any
I claim that if that proved unsatisfactory
part of the world for it!
---if the dispute still existed and we found
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The that the people had not spoken clearly and
objection apparently raised as between a distinctly on the particular issue in dispute
dissolution and a referendum is that on a --then there would be only one course open
dissolution the ministers have to take to us, and that would be to send to the
the responsibility of their action, and that people a direct and distinct issue on which
in a referendum the responsibility is alto- they might vote "aye” or “nay.” In Vic-
gether weakened or put on one side: I toria we have not claimed this referendum.
do not agree with that, because I think In the amendments suggested by our Par-
that any government who accepted the liament, we have not attempted to claim
position of sending a particular matter it. Many of our members would have
which they had formulated as part of their been in favour of it; but it was felt that
policy, and insisted on as being for the it would be unjust to ask the smaller
good of the country -- if they chose to states to place themselves so entirely at
adopt the mode of referendum, and failed, the mercy of the mass of the people.
I
say
that that government would have to Mr. HIGGINS : They did not say that
give way just the same as they would have it would be just; they said that it was in-
to give way if they failed on appeal to the expedient !
constituencies on a dissolution; therefore, The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
I cannot see that that difficulty should am quite willing to say that, even if it
prevent us from adopting the referendum were just, it is inexpedient; because we
unless there are stronger reasons why we know very well that we cannot get it, and
should not adopt it.
that the probabilities are, if we did get it,
Mr. HIGGINS: Suppose the referendum our friends from the smaller colonies would
was as to the establishment of a state bank, not join the federation. As practical men,
would the hon. member resign if beaten ? we must not deal with mere theories. Logic
2 x
634
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
all ! .
is all very well in a debating society; but majority of the electoral districts in the
we are met here as negotiators to frame house of representatives in favour of the
the best bargain that we can, and a bar- question before it can be decided in the
gain which will be acceptable, not only to affirmative.
the people of our own colonies, but to the Mr. HIGGINS : That is no referendum at,
people of all Australia. We must, there-
fore, take into consideration the views ex- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:
pressed by the representatives of the other This proposal is not antagonistic to the
colonies, and we must see that we are not interests of the smaller states. I will
attempting to force upon them something admit that the result may be to leave the
which their colonies will not indorse. I dispute undecided; but we have either to
agree with my hon. friend that, even if do that, or we must do something which I
this were just, which I do not admit, it is am certain we could never carry out.
wholly inexpedient, and as wise and sen- While we may have strong views about
sible men we should not attempt to adopt the majority of the people ruling, what is
it. The proposal of Victoria is that either the use of attempting to embody them in
house should have the right to take this a constitution, when we know that that
particular step, but that two sessions must constitution would never be agreed to?
intervene, so that there may be ample time That is the proposal with regard to the
for consideration. To prevent the second referendum, and I am certain that the
session from being held immediately after smaller states need not be in any way
the dispute, it is provided that there must afraid to agree to it.
be a lapse of six weeks before parliament Mr. WALKER: That is the dual refer-
can meet. Then a resolution must be endun!
passed by one house affirming that the The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Yes.
matter is one of urgency, and asking the There must be the consent of a majority
other house to give it further considera- of the states, and the consent of a majority
tion. That step gives another opportu- of the people in the states. There must
nity for full and fair discussion. Lastly, be, further, a majority of the districts.
there is the responsibility of passing a re- We have gone to the fullest extent that
solution sending the question to the people we can go to do what is fair and just to
for their decision; so that every step pos-
those with whom we desire to federate.
sible is taken to provide for a reasonable I think it is a certainty that we must have
amount of delay, in order to give time for the amendment proposed here, because I
full consideration, so that the representa- believe there are very few who would be
tives of the people may fully thrash out prepared to contend that we should allow
the matter, and, if possible, avoid either a this constitution to go forth without any
dissolution or an application of the refer- means of settling deadlocks. If we think
endum. Then I will ask the representa- that some method must be adopted we
tives of the smaller states to say whether must carry the first amendment so as to
the proposed referendum does not fully build up on that foundation some structure
protect every right that they can have ? to give effect to our views. I am anxious
Our Assembly went further than the Con- that, if possible, we should be unanimous
vention went in Adelaide, and provided on this question. Although possibly the
that not only must. a majority of the states opinion of my own colony would be that
and a majority of the electors voting be we should insist upon getting the referen-
obtained, but that there must also be a dum, and not the double dissolution, I
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] ] Australia Bill. -635
'am prepared to meet the views of my with the exception of the financial ques-
friends here by endeavouring, if pos- tion, this will practically be the last difi-
sible, to have differences settled by double culty which will have to be settled, and
dissolution. But while meeting them to then we may be all proud to take back the
that extent I am going to ask them in fair- bill to the people in our various colonies
ness to us to help us out of the difficulty we and ask them to indorse it; and I believe
may get into by agreeing to that to assent that the vast majority of the people, for
to our proposal, which is that after we have the purpose of obtaining the benefits of
tried the double dissolution and presuming federation, will be prepared to do so.
I
that to have failed, then we should have the am sure I can appeal to the representatives
dual referendum. I think that is not unfair of the sinaller colonies to help us, as we are
or unreasonable. We have all through willing to help them, and I trust that
endeavoured to meet each other so as to appeal will not be in vain.
smooth the path we shall have to travel The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
in our various colonies. I feel very cer-
I feel very cer- [9.40]: I think every member of the Con-
tain of this, that if we can go to our re- vention is grateful to our honorable leader
spective colonies and say that after having
for his words of wisdom and common-sense.
fully discussed, considered, and fought out I think we also owe a debt of gratitude to
this subject, we have, practically, unani- the Premier of Victoria for the plain and
mously--as I hope it will be--come to the practical advice he has given us, fair as it
conclusion that there should be a mode of undoubtedly is from his point of view. I
settling these difficulties, if unfortunately think our discussion or fight, if we are
they do occur, by a double dissolution, having a friendly fight as we are, contains
and, if that fails, by a dual referendum, a certain element of unfairness which I
I think we shall have very little, if desire to point out It appears to me that
any, difficulty, in convincing the people the larger colonies of Victoria and New
we represent that they may fairly and South Wales are certainly to be the pre-
reasonably adopt it. But I am satisfied dominant partners, to use Lord Rose-
that if we are to leave in the bill equal bery's phrase, in the federal government
representation, which I, for one, have which is to be formed, and they certainly
willingly conceded from the first, al- are the predominant colonies in this con-
though I have been somewhat blamed for vention ; and, being the larger colonies,
doing so, if we are to leave that and the they have more able public men than have
other powers with regard to money bills the other three colonies put together.
which we have willingly given to the They have more public speakers than we
senate, and if we are to have no means of have; they have more able men in this
settling the difficulties that may arise, Convention and outside it than we have ;
although I am prepared to use all the in- they have newspapers of enormous influ-
fluence I possess to induce the people of ence which are read by thousands of people
Victoria to accept it, I am afraid that it against the hundreds that read our news-
will be a very difficult task indeed. There-
papers. These public men and these news-
fore, to help us out of a difficulty, as we papers are always talking of the ultra-
are willing to help the representatives of democratic form of the constitution; every
the smaller states out of their difficulty, speaker is trending in that direction; and
I think I may fairly and justly claim that anybody who suggests that there is another
- they should accept the proposition which side to the picture, that there is another way
we submit. If they do so, I believe that, to frame the constitution is hardly listened
636 Commonwealth of [15 SEPT., 1897.] Australici Bill.
to, or else is listened to with no weight ing this constitution unless we do so, I
whatever, as compared with any utterance think it is a very great mistake to talk
from a larger colony, or any article from about this popular will, as if any hon.
one of the larger newspapers to which I member, or all of us put together, had
have alluded. I do not hesitate to say any reasonable idea of what that popular
that if we had on behalf of the small will may be.
be. While we are dealing now
colonies an Edmund Barton, and an Alfred with the constitutional aspect of the ma-
Deakin, and four newspapers like the Age, chine we are constructing, weare altogether
the Argus, the Herald, and the Telegraph, forgetting the financial aspect of it, we are
the whole atmosphere of this Convention altogether forgetting the self-interest which
would be changed. This is the element is wrapped up in that, and when the consti-
of unfairness which I desire to point out. tution goes before our people with the finan-
Here I would ask my fellow delegates cial clauses there, and the terms of the bar-
this question : Are we to frame this con- gain which we inevitably have to make one
stitution in accordance with those princi- state with the other, I say most unhesi-
ples which our political experience believes tatingly that the constitutional question,
to be right, or are we to listen to the voice which is now being made too much of,
of the people without and absolutely let which is being exaggerated, if you will,
them dictate to us how the machine is to both on the side of the small colonies
be framed? While I certainly am not and on the side of the great, will sink into
advocating that we should be deaf to the insignificance; and those hon. members
voice of the people if we could only know who have been bold enough to prophesy
what that voice is and we cannot-while what the will of the people is will have
I am not advocating that we should not no will expressed on those matters at
consider every suggestion which has been all; but the will of the people will be
made by any single member of a house expressed on those subjects which touch
of legislature, I am inclined to think we their pockets. We shall have the protec-
are being guided too much by the outside tionist in Victoria asking himself, “Will
voice and trusting too little to our honest that constitution suit my industry? Is it
and earnest convictions upon the subject going to reduce the value of land in my
which we were sent here to deal with. The colony £25,000,000,”—as pointed out by
question before the Committee is so com- the hon. member, Mr. McLean. We will
plex and so complicated, that I certainly have the manufacturers asking, “Will a
shall follow the advice and the example broad revenue tariff suit me instead of a
of our honorable leader, and hold my protectionist tariff ?? We shall have the
judgment in suspense. My opinions have colonists considering the matter to a great
been so modified, I have been so instructed extent from the view of self-interest; and
by the debates, by the arguments which I I say that then we shall find that those
have heard in this chamber, that I desire constitutional questions which are now
to withhold my judgment till the discus- being made so much of will sink into the
sion is exhausted, and I have got every background, and that hon. members who
shred of light on the matter which hon. are now prophesying as to the will of
members can give me. While the leader the people being against federation if we
of the Convention, and myright hon.friend, insert a particular clause, or against it if
Sir George Turner, say that we must give we leave out a particular clause, will be
effect to the popular will, and that we absolutely wrong in what they are prophe-
shall make a very grave mistake in fram- sying.
[The Hon. H. Dobson,
Commonwealth of
637
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Let us
The Hon. J. A. ISAACS : Some people men who lead our democracy. Those men
will have some difficulties; others will must be patriotic, upright, skilled, and
have others !
able to prevent this democracy running into
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I quite think
disaster. I think I was hauled over the
so. Some earnest radicals and some earnest coals rather unmercifully by the hon, and
tories will have constitutional difficulties; learned member, Mr. Barton, last night for
but the great bulk of the people will look daring to say I desired to control, as I
at the advantages or disadvantages of the do desire to control, the democratic force
bargain. I therefore think there is a very
which surrounds me, that is not a desire
grave danger indeed to the small colonies which sprung merely from my own small
giving way too much to our predominan: brain.
brain. It is the teaching of almost every
friends of the two larger colonies. What
book that I take up. I am told, not only
has led me to this argument is some re-
hy Maine, but also by Bryce, by Lecky, by
marks which have been made by two or Sedgwick, and every writer that I have
three speakers who, I presume, are demo-
read, that democracy is on its trial.
crats, or who, at all events, take a different Mr. GLYNN : They also say that the re-
view on this question from that which my
ferendum is a conservative institution !
intelligence leads me to take; and out of
The Hon. H. DOBSON: The Swiss
their own mouths I think they have to
referendum is, of course, a conservative
some extent given away the case.
institution, but not a referendum estab-
take a remark which was made by the lished, after having formed two strong
hon. member, Mr. McMillan, at the outset chambers, having approved of the bi-
of this debate. He said :
cameral system, which says the will of the
When we havea nicely-adjusted constitution, do people is expressed only when the two
not destroy the balance of power by a mechanical chambers agree. We do away with the
contrivance which may become a tyranny. bi-cameral system, violate the principle on
Could anyone put the question for the which we are constructing the machine,
smaller colonies into a more apt or precise and say we are going back to the people
sentence than that? The hon. member points -to some extent uneducated people—who
out that we have with our labour, intelli- have sent men to Parliament because they
gence, and industry, constructed a machine believe they could carry on the work of
with absolutely finely-adjusted powers, and legislation better than they could them-
he
urges us not to destroy that fine balance selves. I would point oul to my hon. and
which we have created by any mechanical learned friend, Mr. Glynn, that I am try-
contrivance. These are the sentiments of ing to raise the very point which is at
some of the members from Tasmania. But issue before the Committee.
that was not the only phrase the bon. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Sedgwick has
member, Mr. McMillan, made use of. He some very strong arguments in favour of
went on to say:
the referendum !
The only check on the tyranny of the house The Hon. H. DOBSON: He speaks
of representatives is the second chamber,
favourably in some parts of the referen-
He again uses the word “tyranny,” re- dum; but I desire to point out to hon.
ferring, as Mr. Maine, and other writers members what hon. member after hon.
refer, to the fact that manhood suffrage member insists on forgetting, that no
may be the basis of a tyranny. Whether writer that you can get hold of ever had
we build a tyranny upon it or not, depends to deal with such a constitution as this is
solely and entirely upon the one or two at the time; and here I use again the
-638
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
words of Dr. Quick. Here is a marvellous An Hon. MEMBER : Refer to their
sentence to come from one of the advanced masters !
democrats. Dr. Quick says:
The Hon. H. DOBSON: The hon.
Having called into existence the most demo- member says, refer to their masters ! I am
cratic constitution in the world, we ought to already reminding the hon. member that
provide for those historic occasions when conflict their masters have already expressed one
arrives,
opinion through one set of representatives,
Now there is a grand sentence! Having and that exactly the same masters have
absolutely created the most democratic registered a different opinion through their
constitution in the world, our advanced other representatives, and hon. members
democrats opposite are not satisfied. They want this mechanical contrivance which is
ask the small states to give them some- condemned by Mr. McMillan to go and let
thing more. They not only want the most the people say which course they will have.
democratic machine in the world, but they Why, the very fact of two popular houses
want something else. Does not that show conflicting and disagreeing with one an-
that there really is a danger of the small other shows that the question in dispute is
states being persuaded, being coaxed, being so complex and so intricate that the people
induced to give way, when their duty to have not made up their minds, and want
their principles, their duty to their people, time to consider. Let me illustrate it by
their duty to these small and not predomi- an illustration I gave at the Adelaide Con-
nant partners, ought to compel them to vention. When Mr. Gladstone formed his
maintain their principles? The hon. and policy of Home Rule—and I do not dwell
learned member, Dr. Quick, also says: on the fact of how he startled his fol-
The senate will be stronger than any legis- lowers, broke up his party, and alien-
lative council, and therefore we ought to provide ated some of the best friends of his life
against deadlocks.
what he proposed to do as the Unionists
He also says,
thought was to disintegrate the British
The senate was without parallel in responsible Empire. For three, four, and five years
government.
that gentleman and his followers appeared
Therefore, having made this strong upper to captivate and take with them the public
chamber, and this strong upper chamber opinion of the British Empire. Seven
emanating from exactly the same source years afterwards-it was not until seven
as the house of representatives, and having years afterwards--after the greatest battle
behind it the popular will, when these two of words and discussion Great Britain has
strong chambers, each having equal powers, ever seen, the Conservatives came back
and each being of equal weight—each having with the largest majority we have seen
behind it the same popular authority- within the last two decades against a bill
disagree, I fall back upon the words of the which at first seemed to carry the whole
hon. member, Mr. McMillan, who says : weight of the people with it. That seems
Is it not then most unmistakable that there to show that you may have two houses
must be a period when time ought to be allowed from the same people registering two dif-
for consideration ?
ferent opinions; that when you go back
If you have these two chambers, emanating to those people, when you go back to your
from the same authority, differing and in masters, they may not have made up
their
conflict, what does that show? It shows the minds themselves; you may possibly go
great difficulty to determine what the will back to them at a time when they have no
of the people is.
particular will based on reason, based on
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
639
[15 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
thorough investigation of the complex are certain principles which we ought to
matter brought before them.
recollect, beyond which we ought not to
Mr. GLYNN : The hon. member's argu- go.
ment on Home Rule is based on premises Dr. QUICK: You have given up nothing
which many of us deny !
up to the present !
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I do not want
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I think we
to drag in Home Rule. I will take this
give a great deal when we say that this
Convention, if you like. Look at the way
second chamber—this controlling chamber
in which opinion as to the question of
which is an absolute necessity in a bi-
framing this bill has altered since 1891 ;
cameral system-should be elected on man-
how every hour we are getting more de-
hood suffrage. I consider that is giving
mocratic; how every hour the larger states
up a very great deal. But what did the
are gaining and the smaller states are
hon. member, Mr. Fraser, point out some
losing. I wish to join my hon. friends in
hours ago—that perhaps within twelve
doing that which is fair and right in
or eighteen months, or two years at the
framing a bill that will meet with the ac-
furthest, one-half of the senate must face
ceptance of the people, but I do see a
its constituents. One-half of the senate
danger. We are drifting and drifting al-
must go to the people for direction, and if
ways in the one direction. Now I want
the people be dissatisfied-if their masters
to ask hon. members what will happen
be dissatisfied with what the senate has
when Queensland joins us? I know not
done, if they the electors can change the
whether Queensland will send here con-
opinion of one-half of the senate by sending
servative, liberal, or democratic mem-
back that half to represent their exact
bers, but I know that Queensland will
views, as the hon. member, Mr. Fraser,
have a very large say in the matter. I
has pointed out, you practically have the
know that when Queensland comes in
means of registering the will of the people
as I hope she will—to the third sitting
without this mechanical contrivance.
of this Convention that representatives
The Hon. S. FRASER : A natural means!
of that colony who speak will be lis-
tened to with the very greatest weight
The Hon. H. DOBSON: It is a natural
indeed. Suppose the great colony of Queens- referendum, which to use a phrase which has
land, which is large enough and rich enough been so often used, is embodied in the con-
to be made soon into three colonies, utters stitution. I meant to dwell upon the fact-I
the same prophecy which some hon. mem- need not do so long, as the hon. and learned
bers have uttered, “ Unless you build a member, Mr. Barton, has done it better than
constitution on more conservative lines our I can—that throughout the whole of this
people will not accept it, and we will go debate hardly one member has drawn a dis-
back and stump the country against it,".
against it,” tinction between absolute deadlocks and
what position will you be in then? There simple disagreements. I cannot bring my-
fore I ask hon. members to consider that, self to conceive that our democratic friends
while we want to give fair play all round, from either of the two large colonies have a
the persuasive eloquence of our friends right to give us equal representation with
opposite is influencing some of us against the one hand and absolutely take it back
our reason in this matter, simply because from us with the other by asking us to
we do want to conciliate, because we do have a national referendum, or any other
want to give and take, because we do want referendum, on all those questions of
to be friendly, but, at the same time, there general legislative concern which do not
1
64.0
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[15 SEPT., 1897.]
bring about a deadlock; and I think our The Hon. H. DOBSON: Suppose the
discussion is not conducted on the highest customs duties are practically exhausted,
lines of intelligence unless we keep broadly and suppose the commonwealth falls back
before us the distinction between the senate upon a land-tax and an income-tax, what
by its veto bringing about a deadlock and arises then ? I hope some of the good folks
preventing the machinery of government who are here to-night are going to visit or
from going smoothly on, and the senate settle in Tasmania ; but I regret to have
simply negativing some bill of which it to inform them that we have a shilling
does not approve, and which it thinks may income tax there-practically a war tax.
tend to disaster, and not to the prosperity An Hon. MEMBER: We have an income-
of the commonwealth. The hon. and tax of Is. 4d. !
learned member, Mr. Deakin, pointed The Hon. H. DOBSON: And we have
out that most of the things contained in also a land-tax. If, therefore, the con-
the 52nd clause of the bill—those thirty- monwealth are going to put an extra 3d.
seven powers which we have given over to on income and an extra halfpenny on land,
the federal government-were not of state is not that a question of vital concern to
concern; and my hon. friend, Mr. Holder, the state is not that a state right? Most
who made an excellent speech, but one decidedly it is. Then look at other mat-
which I humbly venture to think was ters. We notice that at home the Trades
based on a fallacy, argued that free-trade Union Congress is suggesting that all the
and protection was not a state right. To means of production, all the means of dis-
my mind it is the most vital state right. tribution, and all the means of exchange
The whole of the revenue from Tasmania, should be socialised—whatever that may
sụfficient to pay more than the interest on mean. Suppose that questions of socialism,
her public debt, is derived from customs or questions affecting labour and capital,
duties; and if a tariff is framed in order to were introduced into the federal parlia-
give protection to the industries of Vic- ment-suppose the question of banking
toria, and if you do not give us a very was introduced, and some of our friends
large revenue from tea, coffee, cocoa, and wanted to socialise or nationalise or demo-
things of that kind, which we cannot manu- cratise banking; and suppose our state-
facture or grow, we shall not get enough I do not care whether it is a small state or
revenue with which to carry on our go- a large state—looked upon that law as
vernment. Therefore, it becomes a most absolutely full of disaster, and one which
vital question as a state right whether we could only end in unsettling our commer-
are going to have an ultra-protectionist cial affairs and bringing about fiscal dis-
tariff or a broad revenue-producing tariff. turbance is not that a state right?
I would point out also to my hon. friend, Mr. GLYNN : How could they be state
Mr. Holder, on the question of taxation, policies or state rights if you may have
that if ever a war should come, or if ever them introduced by the federation ?
a necessity should arise for some great The Hon. H. DOBSON: I am talking
expenditure, the power possessed by the of certain powers which we are going to
federal government to tax every citizen of give the federal government the right to
the commonwealth, including every citizen administer, and I say that I can point to
of the states, is of the most vital import- at least two-thirds of them which vitally
ance to the states, and is essentially a state affect the states, and, therefore, to some
right.
extent, state rights; and I say, “Do
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER :
not give equal state representation with
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Petition.
641
(16 SEPT., 1897.]
Finance Committee.
one hand and take it away from us with Adelaide praying that the Convention
the other." I think that the referendum would embody in the constitution an ac-
is a very much over-rated contrivance, and knowledgment of Almighty God.
I ask my hon. friends opposite, would they The petition was read by the Clerk, and
propose to refer to the people a question received.
like bi-metallism ; would they refer to the
PAPERS.
people a question like war, or foreign The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER laid on the
policy; would they refer to the people
table the following papers :-
questions dealing with defence ? I take it A return showing the population of each of the
Australian colonies and Tasmania on the 30th
that those are complex questions, which it
June, 1897.
requires experts to deal with ; and, there-
A return showing the revenue of each of the
fore, those people who expect to get hope Australian colonies and Tasmania during the
and guidance from the referendum, I am sure,
last financial year.
would find they were disappointed. The
A return showing the expenditure of each of
the Australian colonies and Tasmania during the
question before the Committee is, whether
latest financial year.
we shall adopt the first paragraph of a
clause which goes on to give us a certain
FINANCE COMMITTEE.
kind of referendum. I understand that Motion (by Mr. McMILLAN) proposed :
the Prime Minister of this colony is going That the minutes of the proceedings of the
to speak to-morrow morning, and I dare Finance Committee appointed at Adelaide be
say that the hon. and learned member,
printed.
Mr. Isaacs, and other hon. gentlemen will
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
also speak on this question. When we Wales) [10:32]: I have no objection to
have heard everything that can be said on
the motion, as I understand the minutes
the matter, I hope that every hon, mem-
are available.
ber will join in doing what he believes to
Mr. MCMILLAN: I mentioned the mat-
be right; but, at the same time, that he
ter to the hon. and learned member!
will try to conserve some of those principles The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not
without which we cannot have a sound aware at the present moment whether
and enduring constitution.
some information given to the Finance
Motion (the Hon. W. MOORE) agreed to:
Committee by the Railway Commissioners
That the Chairman do now leave the chair,
has ever been printed by the committee..
report progress, and ask leave to sit again. I understand that that evidence was to
Progress reported.
have been treated as confidential; but in-
Convention adjourned at 10.8 p.m.
asmuch as it has already been published
in the Sydney newspapers, I think it
might now be printed for the use of mem-
bers of the Convention. No doubt some
THURSDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER, 1897 members of the committee have copies of
the evidence in their possession, and now
Petition-Papers-Finance Committee---Commonwealth of the bond of confidence has been broken,
perhaps one of them will furnish me with
a copy of it, so that I may move that it be
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30
printed.
Mr. McMILLAN : It is among the papers
PETITION.
Mr. GLynn presented a petition from
of the Finance Committee !
the Synod of the Church of England at Question resolved in the affirmative.
Australia Bill.
a.m.
2 Y
642
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 Sept., 1897.]
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL. The first question to be settled is, how to
In Committee (consideration resumed from prevent deadlocks? I am one of those who
15th September, vide page 641):
do not much fear the resultof deadlocks. We
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
have had deadlocks in Tasmania over and
sembly of New South Wales (vide page 541) again over again; but by a little delay and further
proposeil.
consultation, these deadlocks have disap-
The Hon. W. MOORE (Tasmania)
peared, and the result has been to clear
(10-36]: Having moved the adjournment
the political atmosphere, and to put things
of the debate last night, it is my duty to in a better position than they were in be-
commence it this morning; but I feel that
fore. Several suggestions have been made
I am very much in the position of an
to provide against deadlocks. For instance,
armour-bearer of olden times, because I
a double dissolution has been suggested.
have received an intimation that the great So far as I am individually concerned, I
guns are coming forward, so I am placed
think tbat it will be necessary on the part
in this position to clear the way for the great of the smaller colonies to agree to some
men who are going to continue the debate.
compromise on this matter. I believe that
I believe that the Premier of New South
if the house of representatives is dissolved
Wales, and the Attorney-General of Vic-
upon any question, and when it meets
toria, will both address the Convention, again it again sends this matter to the
and I hope that they will throw a con- senate, and the senate rejects it, the senate
siderable amount of light upon this mat- should then be dissolved. I cannot under-
ter. Not only that; but I think that the
stand why the senate should not be liable
present moment is a very critical time in to dissolution under the constitution which
the consideration of the question before
are framing. The members of the
We have had much time now to senate should not be afraid to come face
think over the matter, and it is neces- to face with the people.
sary to arrive at a compromise of some The Hon, Sir W. A. ZEAL: It will be
sort. I hope that the extremists on both
found upholding its own rights !
sides will try to so modify their opinions The Hon. W. MOORE: Yes; but it
that we may come to a conclusion in re-
will have no right to supersede the verdict
gard to the question. To be, or not to be,
of the people. The senate will, of course,
is the question with us now.
Are we or
represent the states; but my hon. friend
are we not to have federation ?
must remember that the senate in the
pro-
insist upon some of the principles which posed constitution will be a very different
have been brought forward, federation is body from an upper house as established
impossible. If, for instance, we insist upon by any of the constitutions under which
having a national referendum, I am per- we are living at the present time. The
fectly sure that the smaller colonies will principle was put so well by the hon. mem-
not enter the union. I was very pleased ber, Mr.Symon, yesterday that the proposal
with the speech delivered by the Premier formulated in his amendment ought to re-
of Victoria last night, because I thought ceive support from the members of this
from what he said that we might come to Convention. The principle of a dissolution
an agreement upon the points at issue. If is quite consistent with the working of the
we now insist rigidly upon the principles proposed constitution. Therefore, I can-
which we have been advocating, federa- not see why we should object to the prin-
tion will be impossible, and for that reason ciple of making the senate amenable to
I think that some compromise is necessary.
dissolution. I think a national referen-
we
us.
If we
Commonwealth of [16 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Billi
643
dum is practically inconsistent with feder- attitude I intend to take up with regard
ation, because it would destroy the politi- to one of the proposals with which my
cal entity of the individual states, and name has been connected, and which I
therefore, I am not in favour of it. The moved at Adelaide. I would first lightly
principle of a national referendum is never refer to some of the considerations that
applied in connection with responsible go- have been raised in the course of this
vernment. It is foreign to the work- debate. What has impressed me most is
ing and purposes of responsible govern- the evidence that the debate seems to
ment. The principle of a referendum as afford of the captivating power of phrases,
applied to the states is a different thing and the danger that lurks in false an-
altogether, and that is a question that alogies. The hon. member, Mr. Trenwitb,
ought to receive serious consideration. whose judgment is always clear, and whose
There is no doubt that the question of a words always fit his thoughts, spoke of
referendum to the states as states should the matter involved as if, somehow or
receive our special attention. The ques- other, it raised a question analogous to
tion, however, has been so well put already that of plural voting. An hon. member
that I shall not dwell upon it. I only from Tasmania, Mr. Dobson, the whole of
desire that we should, as far as possible, whose speech I regret I did not hear, dis-
agree to some compromise which will bring cussed the matter as if in some way or
about the object which we all have in other a question was raised between de-
view. It might be well if the Premiers
mocracy and conservatism ; while there
of the different colonies formulated some can be no question that among those who
scheme which could be accepted by this are outside this chamber and who do not
Convention. I would advise that we follow the debates very closely, or perhaps
should endeavour in every possible way who do not quite see the limitations of the
by means of compromise to carry out the questions that are at issue, there is a pre-
object we all have in view. I think federa- vailing apprehension that something more
tion will be an impossibility, if we insist is involved in this discussion than the
upon taking extreme views on these ques- relative powers of the two houses—some-
tions. What we all desire, and what I thing more analogous to the old disputes
sure would benefit immensely the which have taken place in our provinces
whole of Australia would be a grand between the lower and the upper houses ;
federation of the whole of these colonies, and that it is not merely a question of the
and in order to carry that out, I am heart conservation of state interests. Therefore,
and soul with those who are anxious to con- feeling that there is this widespread, as I
summate so grand and so glorious a work. consider it, misapprehension, I do not think
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [10:45]: I shall be unduly delaying the business of
I had intended to reserve the remarks this Convention if I devote a few brief
which I have to make on this subject until remarks to explaining the matter as it
we came to deal with the specific pro- presents itself to my judgment. I entirely
posals for avoiding deadlocks; but after
agree with what has fallen from all the
the speech delivered last night by the hon. speakers. It is curious that the same sen-
member, Mr. Barton, and by the Right timent is shared by those who speak on
Hon. Sir George Turner, it seems to me both sides of this question—that is, that
that it might assist to clear the air if I under this Constitution there is very little
took an opportunity whilst the general fear of any deadlock arising between the
discussion is proceeding of stating what two Louses.
am
644
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Unless you brought into conflict as states with the
encourage it!
concentrated majority of the populations
Mr. WISE : I would point out for the of the two large states over a question
consideration of those who entertain more of trade. It is possible to imagine the
alarm on this question than most of us same thing arising over a question of
do, that the deadlocks that we are familiar
commerce, or over a question of finance.
with have always arisen from one of two Now, I ask if such a state of things arises
classes of causes, either they have arisen that the Committee will give attention to
from disputes as to the power of the second the nature of the interests which are
chamber to amend money bills or they have threatened. If conflicts arise over matters
arisen from disputes affecting large social of commerce, trade, or finance, the inter-
interests where persons of wealth or social ests that are threatened are not the inter-
influence have claimed special privileges ests of individual traders, but the interest
or exemptions which the mass of the people of the state as a whole conducting a gene-
have been unwilling to concede. Both of ral class of business, or carrying on a par-
those causes are removed under this con- ticular sort of occupation. I will test what
stitution. The power of the senate to deal
I mean. An effort is being made now in
with money bills is so clearly defined that Victoria to grow beet for sugar; I hope it
I doubt if any ingenuity could suggest the may be successful. A similar effort in its
possibility of dispute arising between the earlier stages is manifesting itself in this
two houses on that question. That at colony. Supposing that the sugar inter-
once renoves one of the most prolific ests in Victoria, and the sugar interests in
sources of dispute between the two cham- New South Wales, became very powerful,
bers in the past. Then as to the second and employed a large number of hands,
class of dispute arising from social differ- and influenced the legislature. It is then
ences, all through this discussion, not, I possible, I do not think it is likely, and
admit, in this house but outside, the con- I am only giving this as an illustration of
troversialists of one party ignore, or seem the way in which, it appears to me, any
to ignore, the limitations of federal govern- conflict can arise it is possible that the
ment. They forget that this commonwealth voters in Melbourne and Sydney, largely
can only deal with those matters that interested in beet sugar, should insist on
are expressly remitted to its jurisdiction; their representatives putting a heavy ex-
and excluded from its jurisdiction are all cise duty on cane sugar. This might have
matters that affect civil rights, all matters a prejudicial effect on the jam industry
that affect property, all matters, in a word, of Tasmania, and the fruit industry of
affecting the two great objects which stir South Australia. It is easy to see that it
the passions and affect the interests of is possible that the two large colonies
mankind. I fail entirely—and I shall could so manipulate the powers to regulate
be glad if some alarmist will enlarge my trade and commerce that they would be
views on this matter—to perceive in this able to crush out or inflict a very serious
bill any question on which there is any blow on the commercial prosperity, not of an
possibility of a conflict between the states individual, not of the whole commonwealth
and the people, except in one respect, and but on a particular group of individuals
will define that in the largest possible who are enabled to carry on an industry
way. In legislation affecting commercial which is affected, because they live under
interests, or financial interests, it is pos- favourable climatic conditions. Is that a
sible to imagine that the states will be power which we can expect these colonies
[Mr. Tise.
Commonwealth of
645
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that are affected readily to concede? I from using them for irrigation, why should
will reverse the position. There is one not the voice of the great majority pre-
clause in the constitution which gives the vail ?
commonwealth power to regulate trade An Hon. MEMBER :
and commerce, and communication be- Mr. WISE: The answer is a simple one.
tween the states for the purpose of further- I am not dealing with theories. I am deal-
ing commerce necessarily follows the federal ing with facts. I accept the facts. The
parliament in order to give effect to that answer is this: we intend to develop New
provision. Every one will admit that one South Wales as a separate state by utilis-
very useful means of communication is a ing our natural resources. We do not dis-
river, and that if the power of regulating pute that logically you may demand these
trade and commerce is to be unanimously rivers ; but we say that we require their
conceded to the federation, logically the fed- waters for other than commonwealth pur-
eration should be able to take over the full poses, and we intend to keep them. It,
control of all the river systems which may therefore, seems to me that a great deal
be made navigable, or which are navigable of this cry for the rule of the majority
throughout the commonwealth, especially comes from those who are very well dis-
where those rivers pass through one colony posed to the rule of the majority when they
into another. Yet there is not the most form the majority, but who are quite de-
violent enthusiast in New South Wales, termined that they shall not submit to
over what he considers this popular rule, that rule when there is a possibility of
who does not insist, and properly in- their being left with the minority. It re-
sist, that New South Wales cannot and minds me of the incident in the Phila-
ought not to surrender the control of her delphia Convention when the question
river system to the federal parliament. arose as to the United States being allowed
For what reason ? Because our rivers are to confer titles of honor. One bluff and
wanted for internal purposes of irrigation, hale democrat declared that for his part he
because our rivers serve the double pur- would support a peerage, if he were quite
pose of developing our national resources sure of being one of the dukes ; but as he
--the resources of New South Wales as knew that he had not any chance of that,
a state-—as well as the purpose of assist- he was opposed to any peerage whatever.
ing communication and furnishing means And so with us, or some of us. They will
of navigation from one part of the com- support the rule of the majority so long as
monwealth to the other. If those who there is no fear of the majority controlling
insist that the small states are nerer their special interests. But the moment
to be allowed to protect themselves against it is said we should hand our railways or
the possibility of unauthorised irrespon- rivers absolutely to the rule of the ma-
sible power, of unduly exercised power by jority, then we have the most clamorous
the majority of the populations of the cries on behalf of state rights raised by the
larger states, logically they will also insist very men who, when the interests of other
that we, who represent them here, should states are involved, are most generous in
hand the control of our rivers absolutely giving them away. What is, after all,
over to the majority of the commonwealth. the possibility of a conflict? When the
Why, to parody their argument, should
causes are gone, the possibility is reduced
not the majority rule? If the majority almost to a minimum. But supposing that
want to use the rivers of New South in the matters I have referred to a con-
Wales for navigation, and to prevent us
flict arises. We have the means of getting
646
Australia Bill.
Cónimonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
rid of the conflict by ordinary good sense, not even an equivalent position ; for this
and if that fails by a dissolution, and simple reason : In the long run, and behind
a third method is proposed. After all everything, is the ultimate sanction of all
these methods have come into play, will law-that'is, physical force.
, Behind the
it not be a fraction of a fraction of legislator there is the policeman, and if
cases in which any insoluble conflict arises the case did arise where the small states,
between the people of the states ? I would by opposing their veto to a scheme
not hesitate to say that, in the last resort, which had passed by a large majority the
if the power of the concentrated state representative assembly, did disorganise
populations were used—I do not believe it the industries of the large states, if they
ever will be—to destroy the country inter- did affect their existence as states, if
ests, the interests of the interior, the people they did give rise to such a tremendous
of the sparsely-populated districts have the outburst of feeling that the national pro-
right of self-preservation.
gress of Victoria or New South Wales
Mr. HIGGINS: My hon. friend confounds
felt itself imperilled, I ask who is going
the interior with the smaller states !
to enforce that veto ? How will the small
states ever be able to give expression to
Mr. WISE: I accept facts; and, indeed,
their will ? In the ultimate resort the large
that is the distinction: that two large states
states have the power of effective resist-
have the great city populations. It is the
ance by reason of their population. In the
small states in a rudimentary or earlier
ultimate resort the small states have not
stage of development which have an agri-
that power. The small states could be
cultural, pastoral, and mining population.
coerced by force-physical force if neces-
It is the concentrated population which
sary—and the large states could not.
makes a large state.
That which makes
Therefore, we are in this position : we are
New South Wales a large state is that it
dealing with imaginary dangers and diffi-
has Sydney ; that which makes Victoria a
culties, which no one here admits or con-
large state is the possession of Melbourne.
siders are likely to arise-difficulties which
In point of territory they are smaller than
either Queensland or Western Australia.
may conceivably arise ; but if they arise
as against the large states, having it in
Mr. HIGGINS : There is the same pro-
thcir power to protect themselves, they
portion of town population in Tasmania as
arise in the case of the small states with-
in New South Wales !
out that power; and all the small states
Mr. WISE: It is not a question of popu- are now asking is that they shall come
lation. The character of the people's pur- under the constitution with the physical
suits is determined by the climatic condi- power of the commonwealth to protect
tions very largely, and by the question them in the last resort, which the large
whether or not they are engaged in the states have by reason of their numbers.
development of internal productiveness or They should be given that same power by
in the carrying on of external commerce. a provision in the constitution which en-
I want to meet the argument that all I ables them to oppose in the long run an
can say can be turned the other way. I ultimate veto, not of the senate, but an
deny that. The relative position of the ultimate veto of the votes of their own
small states towards the large ones in people against any proposal which is in-
questions that may give rise in conflict tended to deprive those people of their
is not the same. The relative position liberties. I, at Adelaide, moved an'amend-
of the small states to the large states is ment which was intended to get rid of
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
647
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
one possible cause of conflict between The Hon. S. FRASER : That is the power
the two houses. I recognise that the of the Minister !
senate was primarily intended to con- Mr. WISE: The Governor advised by
serve the interests of states, and was his Ministers.
only incidentally a house of revision. But The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
I was most deeply impressed by a speech ministry have to accept a great responsi-
of Sir Graham Berry, which pointed out bility!
the inevitable tendency on the part of all Mr. WISE: I was going to point thatout.
legislatures that were secured upon con-
Whether or not there should be added to
tinuous existence—especially when they that a further provision taking a refer-
were composed of men who had won their endum in the event of a dissolution can
spurs in other fields of public work-to be said not to have correctly reflected the
grow out of touch with popular sympathy. opinion of the states, is a matter upon
Therefore it seemed to me desirable that which my opinion has wavered very much.
there should be some method of securing It has wavered because I do not appreciate
that the senators' acts actually reflected at present how the referendum is going to
the popular opinion of their constituencies, work with parliamentary institutions. I
so as to remove once and for ever all pos- recognise the referendum historically as
sibility of conflict on questions affecting having been, from the time of Julius Caesar
personal interests. Since then I have to the time of the third Napoleon, the
listened to several speeches here, and I favourite weapon of personal despotism;
have come to the conclusion not to press and it appears to me very difficult to bring
that amendment, although it was recom- into harmony an institution of that kind
mended by the Parliament of Victoria as which overrides parliament, with the Brit-
one of their alternative schemes. I recog- ish habit of submitting to representative
nise the force of what has been urged: and parliamentary government. At the
That it is unjust to the house of represen- same time, I recognise that there is out-
tatives that it should be subjected to a side a very considerable demand for the
dissolution and to inconveniences from adoption of this plan. I find, too, that it
which the second chamber itself should be is theoretically justifiable as being a sure
free. Therefore I will agree to the sug- way of ascertaining, when all other means
gestion of the Right Hon. Sir George have failed, what the real views of the
Turner that a double dissolution should be people, whom both houses represent, are,
accepted.
and if it is applied with the limitations
The Hon. S. FRASER : At the same time! which have been suggested, so that it can
Mr. WISE: I think at the same time, be used not as the daily food to use the
but that is a matter of detail. I think it phrase of Edmund Burke-of the constitu-
would be better, in the interests of the tion, but as its medicine, I will be found
senate, that it should be at the same time. surrendering my private predilections and
Otherwise without that power a minister voting in its favour. I should be opposed
desirous of quarrelling with the senate, and to making it replace any of the schemes with
of punishing the senate by sending them which we are acquainted for overcoming the
to the country, can do so without incon- difficulties between the two houses, because
venience to himself or any of his supporters I am opposed to making any experiment
in the assembly. I believe it is a safe- in an instrument of this kind. I am pro-
guard against the arbitrary exercise of this foundly convinced of the truth that it will
great power.
be futile and chimerical in us to attempt
648
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.
own
to frame any constitution which does not that one of the greatest effects of those
emanate from the history of our advances has been to realise that, talk as
people. We are a people of British origin, we will of parliamentary and representa-
accustomed to parliamentary institutions. tive government, we are very far yet from
If we do not frame this instrument in such enjoying those blessings in their real sub-
a way that it springs from our antecedents, stance. I find nothing with which to
and follows our tendencies, that it is im- quarrel so long as vague generalities are
bued with the character and habits of our indulged in. For instance, when we speak
people, consonant with their beliefs, and of parliamentary and representative go-
even with their prejudices, then I say that, vernment, those terms are clothed with
build what we may on paper and by act of a respectability which seems to assure
parliament, all that we do will be false and for them cordial and unanimous assent.
perishable. But if, on the other hand, we Indeed, we might go even further, and
pay a due regard to popular opinion, mak- speak of the voice of the people as the
ing concessions to its tendencies where
ultimate arbiter in all national and even
we can make concessions without sacrifice in all federal difficulties. Up to this point
of principle, then I believe that we will everything seems harmonious and entirely
be able to present to the people of Aus- respectable; but when we come closer to
tralia a constitution which, however im- these questions, when we come to rob
perfect, will confer great benefits upon them of their generalities, and endeavour
them, and which will contain within itself to approach them in spirit and reality, it
great possibilities of growth-a constitu- is astonishing what various shades of politi-
tion, in a word, for the adoption and the cal belief are immediately struck off from
successful working of which, every one of the simple flint. In what country in the
us will be proud to labour with all his world to-day do the people, the real solid
strength.
political power-in what country in the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New world can it be said that the voice of
South Wales) (11.10]: I confess that I the people constitutionally expressed has
feel sufficiently diffident as to my powers a chance of being effectual? I know of
of solving this very serious problem to no such country in Australia. We may
have waited, and to have listened, to a perhaps have advanced more rapidly than
large number of speeches-; and, again, I some people would like; but we must take
feel a sense of regret that, so far, the ten- facts as they are, and we cannot shrink
dency of the debate has not been such as to from the fact that in every Australian
promise us a satisfactory issue from all colony the people have been struggling for
our difficulties. Again, it seems almost many years past to get a more real share,
impossible that the Convention is able to a more potent influence, a more direct
realise that, in endeavouring to frame a control over what are called parliamentary
constitution at this time, we must pay the and representative institutions. I do not
fullest regard to the course and develop- need to go into illustrations to show how
ment of political history. We are too apt crude the political circumstances of some of
to get back to that state of things under
the colonies are. I need not go out of the
the stress of which the Constitution of the boundaries of New South Wales. We have
United States was formed. We are too here at the present time a constitution
apt to forget that, since that constitution which is, I suppose, one of the most extra-
was established, there have been enormous ordinary anomalies known to the political
advances in political enlightenment, and chronicler; but, at the same time, there is a
[Mr. Wise.
Commonucealth of
649
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
great deal to be said for it. In its work- nothing is more melancholy than the utter
ing, although often it breaks down most breakdown of the Constitution of the
abominably, it is as efficient an instrument United States in that one saving respect
of popular government as any in the world. —that the voice of the people can imme-
But, unfortunately, we are not now ad- diately and perfectly affect the course of
dressing ourselves to the task of amending government. I feel all the prouder of our
some imperfect constitution. Our solemn connection with the mother country when
task is that of constructing an entirely I reflect that in spite of the House of
new political constitution, and, so far as Lords there is no country in the world
the British people are concerned, a consti- where public opinion in its broadest form
tution in which, if we are to proceed on has so much weight. It seems to me that
the lines of the British Constitution, we those who are timid of public opinion, who
have very little to guide us. My hon. and think that public opinion, allowed fair
learned friend, Mr. Wise, was as satisfac- sway in the affairs of government, will
tory, as were all the other gentlemen, who throw our institutions into confusion might
indulged in platitudes. He was conde- take some courage from the history of the
scending enough to say that he was will British people since the year 1832. We
ing, to some extent, to bow to the trend know the extremity to which the consti-
of public opinion, even, although public tution of the mother country was reduced
opinion may have the misfortune to differ in 1832, not by hollow false agitation, but
from his own. We accept all these assur- by the collision of those two opposing
ances with gratitude. It is highly satisfac- forces, one of which had been gradually
tory to me to hear, at this time of the day, dying, the other of which had roused itself
that there are enlightened public men who for that last desperate fight against the
have some sort of abstract respect for the advance of the popular power. At that
significance of public opinion. I wish to time, the British Constitution was in im-
go much further—I wish to say that it is minent risk of disruption. Fortunately,
only in public opinion, in the efficacy of there was a safety-valve in the consti-
public opinion, and in the authority of tution which saved the people from the
public opinion, in shaping the destinies of most disastrous convulsion that could ever
any political constitution that its founda-
come upon the British nation. Fortu-
tions can consist—that just as public nately, at that critical time, as I say,
opinion has had the freest control of the there was a safety-valve, which enabled
destinies of a country, so have those des- the will of the people to have effect. And
tinies become purer and more dignified. what has been the result? We are now
It is of no use to point to the United States sixty-five years away from that point, and
as a country in which the people have will not the most timid Tory admit, look-
political power. There is no country in the ing on the history of the past sixty-five
world where the people in a broad, massive, years, that the history of England during
honorable sense have less to do with the that sixty-five years, that the history of
government of the country than they have government during that sixty-five years,
in the United States. They have become that the history of the people in every
entangled under the provisions of their sense as a governed people and as a go-
federal constitution in such a series of verning people has been the brightest in
contrivances for subordinating the free the whole range of British history? Do we
honest expression of public opinion to the find to-day any signs of those destructive
most unworthy purposes that, to my mind, socialistic forces of which we hear so much?
650
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Sixty-two years after that great revolution in proportion to those of the larger states
in the balance of political power, what do we -must be respected. I quite admit that
see to-day in the mother country? We see it is impossible to stand up at this stage
a Tory government, that is a conservative and advocate federation unless we are pre-
government-a government which some of pared to admit that in everything which
my friends here would look upon as a per- falls legitimately within the definition of
fect guarantee for everything that is up- state rights, majorities cannot be allowed to
right and respectable-in a position of have their own way. It is only by coming
triumphant power to-day, supported even down to definitions—by paying some little
by a democratic labour federationist. Are regard to the precise character of the range
not these teachings of history, of the his- which this federation is to assume, that
tory of our own race under institutions we can clear the air of all these mysterious
resembling our own, are not these ex- fears of brutal domination over principles
periences enough to enable us, when we which are dear to the hearts of every true.
are framing here in this country, even born Australian in the smaller states. We
more in advance in some respects than is must look at the work with which this
the mother country-infinitely freer from commonwealth is to be intrusted. If it
obstacles in the path of a scientific adjust- were a provision of this constitution that
ment of political forces—to address our- the commonwealth should deal with all
selves to this great crucial problem with a matters not specifically retained by the
feeling of confidence that the more the people states, I do not think that I could make
are with us in the work of governing Aus- the speech that I am making at the pre-
tralia, the more just, the more stable, the sent moment I admit, because it would
more successful the government will be ? be impossible to define the line, or with
I confess that I listened with the keenest any sort of resemblance to precision to de-
disappointment to the speech of my right fine the line, over which state rights would
hon. friend, Sir George Turner. It was a come into the plane of the commonwealth
generous speech. We can all be generous rights. But we have simplified this most
when we are dealing with somebody else's difficult problem—and I hope that hon.
affairs. I can be extremely generous when members will accept my assurance that,
some great necessity of duty does not come although I am speaking so earnestly, I am
in my way ; but when a necessity of duty not at all indifferent to the intense and
comes in my way—a duty which I cannot immense difficulty of this matter. I give
very well abandon—then I feel that I have hon. friends who hold the opposite view
to throw aside all these courteous phrases to mine the most absolute credit for the
and to speak plainly and earnestly. My most honest desire to do that which is right.
right hon. friend, it seems to me, has made Just as I stand here, perhaps, in a last
this fatal mistake: he has, by the position entrenchment in defence of what I believe
which he has taken up, been ready to solve to be the rights of a majority of the
this most anxious difficulty between what people of the commonwealth, some of
I fully admit are the just rights of the my hon. friends with equal honesty and
smaller states and what are the equally equal duty, stand, perhaps, in their last
just rights of the people as a common- entrenchment to defend the rights of the
wealth. In this difficulty we must see at smaller states against a system which
once that there are certain things in which would set those rights entirely at the
the rights of the smaller states, however mercy of a mere majority of the electors
small-however insignificant their people of the commonwealth. If I stood up to
my
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Cominonwealth of
651
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australic Bill.
seven.
ask them not to do that in reference to Copyrights and patents of inventions, designs,
and trade-marks.
state rights, I feel that I should come here
Naturalisation and aliens.
asking them to do a thing which no rea-
Foreign corporations, and trading or financial
sonable man ought to ask them to do. But
corporations formed in any state or part of the
what is the principle of this deed we are commonwealth.
about to endeavour to seal ? The first Marriage and divorce.
principle is that the commonwealth is to Parental rights, and the custody and guardian-
have no sort of pretence to power except
ship and custody of infants.
upon the subjects set out in this bill. For- " Parental Rights
that is rather a
tunately, we will always have a court of
strange thing to see in a constitution of
high reputation, I hope, to see that every- this kind.
one is kept to the terms of the instrument.
The service and execution throughout the
Under the protection of the supreme court commonwealth of the civil and criminal process
of the commonwealth, the sphere within and judgments of the courts of the states.
which the commonwealth can assert itself The recognition throughout the commonwealth
- or legislate is set out in so many words.
of the laws, the public acts and records, and the
judicial proceedings, of the states.
I look over these subjects—clauses 52 and
Immigration and emigration.
53, I believe, contain them all, and what
External affairs and treaties.
do I find ? I find :
The relations of the commonwealth to the
The regulation of trade and commerce with islands of the Pacific.
other countries, and among the several states.
I have read down to thirty out of thirty-
Customs and excise and bounties, but so that
duties of customs and excise and bounties shall
Hon. members are familiar with
be uniform throughout the commonwealth, and all these subjects--I would read them all if
that no tax or duty shall be imposed on any
it were necessary, but I only point to these
goods exported from one state to another.
Raising money by any other mode or system
things to show that, so far as the sphere
of taxation; but so that all such taxation shall
of what is called the socialistic agitator is
be uniform throughout the commonwealth. concerned, it is not there.
Borrowing money on the public credit of the
The Hon. S. FRASER : Oh, yes—paper
commonwealth.
Postal, telegraphic, telephonic, and other like money!
services,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
The military and naval defence of the com-
glad my hon. friend has mentioned that,
monwealth and the several states and the calling
out of the forces to execute and maintain the
because it shows us in 'a vivid light that
laws of the commonwealth.
even amongst men who command the
Munitions of war.
highest respect, by reason of having a prac-
Navigation and shipping.
tical mind, in all the affairs of life-that
Ocean beacons and buoys, and ocean light-
there are some subjects upon which even
houses and lightships.
Astronomical and meteorological observations.
the imagination of a Shakspere is not equal
Quarantine.
to theirs. Now, because at various times
Fisheries in Australian waters beyond territo- over this vast continent, and in other parts
rial limits.
of the world, a faint flicker of some reck-
Cepsus and statistics.
Currency, coinage, and legal tender.
less eloquence on the part of some un-
Banking, the incorporation of banks, and the known person has announced some descent
issue of paper money.
on the financial institutions, possibly and
Insurance, excluding state insurance not ex- probably of Victoria, at once the practical
tending beyond the limits of the state concerned.
mind is in a blaze—the whole political per-
Weights and measures.
Bills of exchange and promissory-notes.
spective is coloured with a lurid glare, be-
Bankruptcy and insolvency.
cause the Haymarket has been rash enough
652
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
to question our present principles of money- this constitution the commonwealth face,
making. What chance is there, in any form the national face, and the states face, and so
of Australian commonwealth, of there being long as those who represent the states wish
any legislation which will attack the basis that the state voice shall be so strength-
of credit-either public credit or bank- ened that it will always be able to drown
ing credit–in the ordinary affairs of life? the national voice, they take up a position
When our people have reached a stage at
which I for one can never allow to see
which they will have wild and revolution- created by this constitution. So, I admit,
ary views, I do not know what precise if we, who take the other side, were to
form of constitution will keep them from desire to see imprinted in this bill such a
doing mischief. But I would invite my contrivance that the voice of the nation
hon. friends to distinguish between the would always drown the voice of the smaller
spray on the surface of a vast popular states, we should take up a position in
movement, and not imagine that, because which we could not hope to succeed. Our
occasionally some sign of superficial extra- difficulty therefore is: Are we to so arrange
vagance appears upon the mighty breast the constitution that in matters which are
of human progress, therefore, all humanity national, which are peculiarly national,
is spray, all humanity is extravagance, and the national voice shall prevail, and that in
that any system of government could be matters which involve state rights, which
so used as to bring into true and real are different from the issues which I have
existence these extravagant outbursts described, the state voice shall not be
which, to my mind, are unworthy of those drowned even by the national voice? Now
who indulge in them. Let us look upon that is the problem we have to deal with.
this Australia as a place in which at no I am making these remarks in the light of
time will the foundations of honesty be suggestions which have been made to the
held in disrepute. Let us hope that at no Committee. I wish now to test these sug-
time in Australia confiscation will have its gestions as well as I can. I admit at once
way. If the spirit comes over Australians,
that this bill is already a vast improvement
we may believe that it will spread, and it upon the bill of 1891--I mean from the
will affect the whole of the states—the popular point of view. I look upon the fact
smaller states as well as the larger. But that the senate is to be elected by the
let us put aside all these chimerical fears, people of the different colonies on the basis
and let us look calınly at the position. I of one man one vote, the votes being taken
say to my hon. friends that if there is one in the states as single electorates, as a
of these subjects that seems a danger, or a marvellous advance, from the popular point
difficulty, let us erase it. I am prepared to of view, over the year 1891, and I am pre-
strike it out. I see one or two chimerical pared to give the fullest weight and sig.
subjects in this list. I am prepared to strike nificance to that fact as affecting the larger
them out we have not come to them yet. states. I anı prepared to admit that there
I will strike out of this charter every pos- are questions which some gentlemen fear
sible difficulty in the way of a solution of are likely to occasion public enthusiasm in
the problem on which we are engaged; the larger states; but, if they are truly
and if we remove from that list all subjects national questions, they can scarcely fail
but those within which must be confined to awaken equal popular enthusiasm in the
the legislativeenergy of the commonwealth, smaller states. At present, of course, we
then we get much nearer a settlement of are sharply divided, and it is astonishing
this vexed question. There must be in to what an extent differences of feeling
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
653
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
have grown up in the various colonies ; The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : It is
put, given a federation, how rapidly will well worth trying !
these provincial differences and this bitter- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It is
ness disappear! Once the nation breathes well worth trying. In the first place I do
as a nation, how soon will the spirit of not give much for a state right which is
the people change - how soon will the not embedded in the constitution. Any
knocking down of these barriers, which state right which the advocates of the
vex every daily commercial transaction of
smaller states do not put into the consti-
the people make them feel at last that tution is not worth much, just as any popu-
there is nothing to divide them, nothing lar right which is not put into the consti-
that boundaries can create. After the tution is not worth much. So that our
destruction of these subjects of bitter first subject of anxiety should be this: To
parochial feeling, you will rapidly find a put every legitimate subject of state right
state of things grow up under which, when in the deed under such terms that a mere
great national questions come along, you majority will not fritter away the rights of
will never be able to distinguish between
individuals. I will take one subject-I
the voter of South Australia and if with- do not want to go into too long a speech
out blasphemy, I may say so—the voter of here now-which has presented to me the
Western Australia, and the voter of New other side of the question in the most
South Wales, and the voter of Victoria. I forcible light. Let us suppose that we
wish to point out one question, to which I have adopted a dissolution for the senate
would apply the last suggestion for solv- as well as for the house of representatives.
ing the difficulty. We have before us three I admit that that is an extremely great
suggestions-first, a referendum, called a concession-I am using a phrase which is
mass referendum. Well, I admit that upon used all round the chamber, and I make
certain subjects that would be wrong-- my friends a present of it on this occasion
that is to say, subjects peculiarly involving -We have got a great concession from the
state rights. Just as I decline to hand over smaller states, a proper one, I think, but
the 1,400,000 people of New South Wales still I call it a concession-a great conces-
to the smaller populations of the other sion from the smaller states in providing
colonies on national matters, so I expect for a dissolution of the senate. I quite
them to refuse to hand over their 400,000, believe that in the average life of this
or 300,000, or 200,000 people into our future commonwealth the mere power to
hands upon matters affecting state rights. dissolve the senate will keep it straight.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Can The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL : If it does
you distinguish between the two ?
not?
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
The Hon. S. FRASER :
the point. Under this constitution, with The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
the leading principle in it that it is not to the sort of dissolution which amounts to
go beyond what is in it, no principle or the death of a man when he has not an-
subject which is not expressed within its other breath to draw. It is the sort of
pages can be dealt with by the federal dissolution from which humanity has not
parliament. Looking that in the face, I yet been able to escape. But if when the
say it is possible to distinguish between the senators had just returned from that sort
questions in which the voice of the nation of energetic canvass of which my hon.
must be supreme, and questions in which friend is capable, over an enormous extent
the voice of the states must be respected. of territory, and had sat themselves down
654
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.)
in their senatorial chairs, for as they in which the voice of the nation really
thought six years solid, they knew that comes into conflict with the voice of the
those who formed the executive of the states
country might be able to send them on The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : A
another tour without delay, and without national question !
salary, it would make the senate a much The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes. I
more reasonable body.
am referring to matters in which the in-
The Hon. S. FRASER: If my right hon.
terests of the larger states and of the
friend was speaking against a senate which
smaller states come into collision really,
could not be dissolved at all like the House seriously, and vitally. All these complex,
of Lords and the Upper House in Canada costly, slow expedients then seem to me
I could understand him !
to resenible a series of ditches in which the
commonwealth can flounder one after the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There
other, finding itself at last in the biggest
are houses which we know of in Australia
ditch of all. That is, after infinite trouble
which have developed a spirit of arrogance
to get a decision, after infinite labour and
and self-sufficiency quite beyond that of
concession, it will find itself in a more dan-
the House of Lords. Considering the
gerous and a more envenomed state than
democratic surroundings of these gentle-
when the difficulty began. I admit that
men when they are outside parliament, it
there is a great deal in the very
able argu-
has been a standing conundrum with me
ments which I have heard more than once
how when they sit within their chambers
from the hon. and learned member, Nir.
they can seem an embodiment of immoy-
Barton. I give the greatest weight to
able and absolute power, which I have not
those arguments. No doubt the average
found anywhere in ancient history. The
differences between the two houses can,
simple reason is that the breath of the
as a rule, be left to the ordinary play of
people cannot be brought to bear upon parliamentary responsibility. But I am
them at a critical moment.
anxious to see the commonwealth start with
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I am afraid
the fairest prospect, so that this labour
that that is more picturesque than practical! which is to bring the Australian colonies
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: What
into union will never by any fault of ours,
could be more picturesque than my hon. by any reluctance to face the crucial diffi-
friend laying down the law here, and if he culties of the situation, be so formed that
is so here what must be his august dignity
the deed which we offer to the Australian
in the chair of that distinguished assembly people as a charter of peace and union will
of which he is the ornament? The disso- be so faultily framed that under some
lution of the senate is, I think, a very great serious, some dire strain, instead of show-
concession in the line of the popular de- ing the spectacle of a united people only
mand. So far as mere ordinary matters,
divided by lines of broad public principle,
such as we can conceive in the ordinary we shall find ourselves precipitated into
course of events, are concerned, that, with all those very difficulties to escape from
the provision for a dual referendum, might which the constitution is being devised. I
seem to provide a sufficient number of will take the first subject; the most im-
ditches for anything that has to be done. portant subject with which the common-
But the misfortune of this provision for
wealth has to deal. The regulation of
the dissolution of both houses, and the the fiscal policy is a matter of vast im-
dual referendum is that if a question arises portance to every man in this country,
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
655
[16 SEPT., 18.97.
Australia Bill.
and in all the Australian colonies. I can- The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is
not conceive, so far as the colonies go- the sort of refinement that might arise in
leaving out the cardinal points of the consti- some courts of limited jurisdiction ; but in
tution-of any subject of legislation which the
supreme court of the federation the
more nearly touches the personal interests, people have set up a tribunal to see that
the business, and prosperity of the citizens the expressed mandates of the constitution
than questions of this kind, questions which are respected, and, if it finds an absolute
we know will throw the people into violent direction in the constitution that a certain
antagonism. Let us suppose that a federal thing shall be done within two years, and .
tariff is to be constructed. One of my rea-
sees the reason for it, there is no doubt it
sons for urging that we should put into will insist upon that prorision being car-
the bill a provision that the federal tariff ried out. It is not dificult to find the
should be constructed within two years, as reason for it, the reason being that it is
a matter of absolute necessity, was that, the essence of the whole contract of feder-
knowing the differences of opinion, know- ation that there shall bea uniform tariff and
ing the points at which the interests of intercolonial free-trade. I do not think that
different persons and, perhaps, different any one off the police court bench would
localities will come into violent contact, I find any difficulty about that. Now, let
felt the greatest apprehension lest, when me come back to this question of a federal
we, the people of New South Wales, put tariff. We might find the federal parlia-
our freedom to the risk of federation ment in a state of hopeless conflict over
in an endeavour to construct a federal that tariff. It is true the senate could not
tariff which will pass a legislature consti- alter it, and from some points of view that
tuted as this is, we may find ourselves, would only aggravate the difficulties of
after infinite struggle and agitation, as far the situation. The senate will be put into
away from its attainment as ever. We this position, that it will have to say yes
in New South Wales may find ourselves or no, and it is quite conceivable that by
in a federation which was to knock down the states acting together—it does not
the barriers which surround us, but to enter follow that it should be the smaller ones;
which we have surrendered our liberty it is conceivable that even the two larger
without deriving any of the benefits of colonies might combine in the senate-or
intercolonial free-trade. The objection was by any conceivable combination of three
made, “What power is there to enforce against two or four against one, it would
the necessity of framing this tariff within have the effect that at the very tbreshold of
two years?" The slightest study of the federation the one thing for which we feder-
constitution would show that, so far from ated could not be accomplished withoutsome
being an abortive provision, if the tariff extraordinary powers of settlement. What
were not constructed within that period, are those suggested to us? First, a dis-
no man could be taxed under it without solution of both houses of parliament. It
redress in the supreme court of Australia. might very well be that on an issue that
Because this provides a test for all the excites public feeling to such an extraor-
legislation of the commonwealth.
dinary extent as the fiscal issue always
NIr. HIGGINS : Is it not directory only ? does, that a number of people in each of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The the states represented by the blocking
term “shall ” is never directory.
power, influenced by a thousand different
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It does not say reasons and points of view, all affecting
it shall not be done afterwards !
their own pockets and interests as they
656
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 Sept., 1897.]
think, would unite to prevent that tariff ever, while each colony and each man in
from becoming law; and the result of the each colony is striving for his own view
double dissolution might well be that the and his own pocket, or his own industry,
senate and the house of representatires such an extraordinary complication of
would find themselves in the same condi- votes and interests in the country and in
tion as before. Then we apply the other the senate may arise that this constitution
test to this terrible state of deadlock ex- which is to give us a nation may give us
isting over this vital point. We would chaos. I am prepared to surrender a good
have another resort, which would be the deal in order to have finality, because even
dual referendum-exactly a repetition of if injustice is worked there are always op-
the same process.
There would be ex- portunities of readjusting and correcting
actly the same dificulty, because remem- injustices. But we who are framing this
ber under the dual referendum the people constitution, we whom the people have
would be in exactly the same position as trusted with this enormous responsibility,
the senate. Even the dual referendum is are bound not to take refuge—we from
worse than the position of the senate, be- the larger and from the smaller states—in
cause the senate can suggest; on those what really is shirking. I do not wish to
suggestions they might not agree, or, if praise my hon. friend, Mr. Holder, pub-
they did, the majority might envenom the licly or even privately, but I must be
difficulty instead of relieving it. Well, we allowed in justice to him to express to this
go through this second serious call upon Convention and to the public my high ad-
the people of the commonwealth; this miration of the way in which that gentle-
burning question, which sets everyone by man has shaken himself free from his sur-
the ears, goes again to the people in an- roundings and has adjusted himself to the
other form, in which they have still less task before him. I do not deny that we
power of modifying the provisions of the have all endeavoured to do the same ; but I
existing scheme on which they can only can only say that I should be a proud man
say "yes" or "no.”
În this contrivance if I thought I had done it as fully as he.
I do not see the prospect of sufficient safe- The Hon. H. DOBSON: Why not do it
guards for questions like this.
now ?
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : No finality? The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I have
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No. always found that when, in the course of
The Hon. S. FRASER : They are the very my public duty, I have had to recognise
questions that would cause the difficulty ! some good act on the part of an individual,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I cau- there are other individuals not accustomed
didly confess that if we got over this ques- to such tributes who make disagreeable re-
tion I might not speak so strongly as I am marks. Now I think my hon. friend will
now doing. I candidly admit that if we admit that no man ever went into a more
once got all these burning questions settled, dangerous course for himself than the hon.
and the life of the nation had time to member, Mr. Holder, did when he declared
develop, and if the feeling of sympathy for a mass referendum. I do not know how
among the people as a whole had time to he has contrired to live with his friends
circulate freely, I admit that even on this ever since. In his desire to get finality,
point I would not perhaps be so emphatic. to put within this machine something
But we must remember that while all these which will prevent it bursting into pieces
local feelings are rankling, while all these -and sometimes, I must say, when I hear
ideas of self-interest are as rampant as gifted men speaking of providing a safety-
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
657
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
Australice Bill
}
valve in this constitution as a sort of thing friends from the smaller states, as far as
equivalent to some fanciful piece of in- they can, to tell us what those state rights
genuity not at all useful-I often wish are which require that the ordinary provi-
some of these gifted men would themselves sions of any political free constitution for
only run a machine of some kind without the rule, in the last resort, of a majority
a safety-valve.
of the electors should not have its sway?
The Hon. E. BARTON: Has the hon. Every such right which requires to be
member tried it?
specially safeguarded I am prepared to
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No, I recognise and put in that constitution
have not tried it, and not having risked where it cannot be interfered with by any
myself to it, I do not intend to risk the majority.
people of Australia to it either.
We The Hon. H. DOBSON : That is impos-
should really in this matter be as careful sible !
of the safety-valve as of our own people; The Right Hon. G. H. REID: My hon.
and if we would feel some anxiety about friend might find many things impossible
the mechanical perfection of a locomotive which might be possible to others. I admit
which was taking us on a railway journey, that he is right to a great extent.
I feel infinitely more anxiety about the The Hon. H. DOBSON: It is utterly im-
construction of a machine to which the possible !
people of this continent are going to intrust The Right Hon. G. H. REID : What
their political rights.
are these state rights which cannot be
The Right Hon. Sir JOIN FORREST : inserted in this deed ?
There is no safety-valve in most of the The Hon. H. DOBSON: The bon. member
colonies now!
seems to think
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Not in The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
Western Australia. I quite agree with not thinking at present. I am simply ask-
my hon. friend, but, unfortunately, his ing you a question. I ask those who say
colony is so far off that if there was an that state rights ought to be inserted in this
explosion there, it would not hurt us. constitution, whether they have arrived at
There may be a safety-valve there ; but, if such a conception of those rights that they
so, my hon. friend is always sitting on it. can put them into the constitution ?
I feel that my hon. friend, Mr. Holder, The Hon. H. DOBSON : The right hon.
in his conviction that there must be a gentleman has to answer his own ques-
safety-valve conceded almost too much-I tion : How can the state voice not be
mean a little more than, perhaps, we are drowned by the national voice if you have
entitled to. But I think we may recon-
a mass referendum ?
cile a mass referendum to the rights of the The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I meeti
states which in their nature are different my hon. friend in this way. In all ques-
from the rights of the people as an Austra- tions in which the rights of the states as
lian people, which are put in the bed-rock geographical entities are not involved, no
of the constitution,
reasonable man can refuse the rule of the
Mr. HIGGINS: Are not states' rights majority.
already protected by the constitution? The Hon. H. DOBSON: What about
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am their rights as human entities?
afraid that my hon, friend's version would The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Now,
not be accepted implicitly by the gentle there my hon. friend states a view which
men I am now addressing. I ask my I confess puzzles me. What distinction is
2 Z
658
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
there between a human entity on one bank after all these suggestions, to prevent any
of the Murray and a human entity on the thing from being done. My hon. friend,
other? If there is a distinction, in the Mr. Barton, very carefully and properly
name of Heaven, let us put it in the con- pointed out the pains we have been at to
stitution. Until those who are framing renuove causes of offence between the two
this constitution can rise to the one human houses, and there is no doubt that our work
entity of Australia, they are out of place in that direction has been most valuable.
in this Convention.
But I am not talking of this, I am talking
The Hon. H. DOBSON : The hon. mem- of some radical difficulty in principle, or
ber has just told us different ?
what is much stronger, in self-interest, be-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: When tween the two houses, or the people repre-
my hon. friend, who is a gifted and able sented in the two houses. If that ran through
lawyer, as we know him to be, is unable the whole process, as it probably would, we
to put into English one of these state would be left in this position: that through
rights that are not yet in the constitution, nothing being done, the veto of the senate
I am inclined to think that most of them would be the living force in the common-
have been safely provided for.
wealth. You may talk about the power of a
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : The house which frames and sends up measures;
senate is not limited to dealing with state but the power of a house which can say
rights. It has general powers !
"No," and is under no responsibility for
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: My administering the affairs of the country,
hon. friend's interruptions resemble a leaves the terrible responsibility of carrying
bludgeon in more respects than one--they on the machinery of government, while it
have no point.
has the right of preventing the responsible
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : power from carrying out its policy to pro-
They are too pointed !
vide the means for doing so. A house which
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am at possesses that power possesses a power
present addressing myself to this question, which can at any moment—and that is the
if there are any state rights which make it material point-throw the commonwealth
necessary to distinguish between people into confusion simply by saying no; and
inhabiting Western Australia, or Victoria, then begins, if we have no legitimate way to
or New South Wales, or South Australia, solve a difficulty upon honest grounds, upon
and Tasmania, we owe it to these people appeal to some disinterested or national
to put them in the constitution, because it authority, this wretched system of govern-
is the only safe place for them; and if ment and legislation by bribe and bargain.
they are state rights they ought to be If a government is put in such a position
there. But the fact is that every state that when it is confronted with a negative
right has been safeguarded in the consti- on some large measure such as a tariff bill
tution, except the state claim that since when it reaches the senate and it is left
there must be some finality we will be on helpless to get beyond the obstacle thrown
the right side of the hedge by saying that across its path in an honorable, national
it rests with us on every question, state or way by an appeal to the principles and
national. Let us see the effect of this com- 'convictions of those who give the constitu-
plicated series of contrivances. The effect tion its life and power, then it must from
of them may be, as I have said, with the self-preservation resort to indirect, un-
minority. Those who represent the minor- worthy, and unprincipled devices. Of
ity in one house, the senate, may be able, course, there is a promising field for the
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
659
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
Azustralia Bill.
lobbyist with the two houses in a position rights they should not be exposed to the
of difficulty, and a thousand pecuniary in- position of an ever hopeless minority. I
terests knocking at the door. We had the will give to them in black and white, in
picture before us only two or three months this constitution, every state right which
ago in that great Senate of the United they ought to take, and, when I do that, I
States. So I, a thousand times, say we ask them to meet me; and in matters like
should not expose the executive govern- these—matters of national policy, matters
ment of this commonwealth to the necessity affecting each human being in his daily
of stratagem, intrigue, and contrivance, life, in his business, in his pocket equally, ,
probably in secret, over matters of fatal as an Australian human entity--I ask
concern to the whole of the community. them in such matters to rise in the light
But that is the alternative. I quite admit of history, in the light of what we have
that in the last resort, before the explo- seen of the working out of political insti-
sion comes, means will be found, perhaps, tutions in the Anglo-Saxon race; I ask
to solve the difficulty. But what sort of them to rise to this position : that they
means? The free judgment of anyone? will leave these truly national matters to
No. The house of representatives and of the truly national voice, confident as they
government under the stern necessity of must be that in no serious respect will an
compulsion—compelled, perhaps, to maim Anglo-Saxon race inflict à deliberate in-
and disfigureits policy in order that the com- jury upon any member of our common-
monwealth should live. Well, we may have wealth.
to come to that state of things; but I ask The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
this Convention, framing a constitution in [12-13]: I think I should be very much
the light of things as they are, at the close wanting in my appreciation of the great
of this nineteenth century, whether we speech we have just heard if I did not pre-
cannot, in some way or other, provide that face my own with a tribute of admiration
in great national exigencies we should not for the lofty sentiments that have per-
only know how to get from one ditch into vaded the expressions which have just fallen
another, but should know how to solve our from the right hon, the Premier of New
difficulties in a constitutional manner- South Wales; and with him as I am, and
that is to say, in a manner provided by the as most of my colleagues are, in funda-
constitution. I admit it is easy to make mental opinions on most of what he has
these criticisms, and I think they are said, our admiration for his words are
proper to be made at the present time; linked with a full appreciation of the
and I tell hon. gentlemen frankly, from my reasons by which he has arrived at them.
knowledge of the public sentiment as it is The gravity of the present moment can-
in New South Wales to-day, that I feel that not, I think, be over-estimated. I believe
if I did not make the speech which I am there is not a member of this Convention-
making I should not do my duty to this I might even go further, and say there is
Convention ; because, above all things, I not a single member of the community-
am anxious that we should all share the that is not consumed with anxiety as to
undying credit of framing an instrument the result of our deliberationson this all-in-
which will pass the ordeal of public opinion portant question. We have got past the pre-
in all these colonies. So I say I am pre- liminaries of this great subject; wehavegot
pared to meet my friends by safeguard past all what we might term the firtations
ing their legitimate rights, to sympathise of federation, and we have come down now
with their legitimate anxiety, that in state to a definite statement of our absolute and
660
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
I am
final intentions. What we have done in people of Australasia will demand of us,
the past, I apprehend, on the whole, while not only, what will this machine cost,
not commanding the assent of us all, will but, how will it work in actual operation.
be regarded by the people of Australia as Therefore, when we approach this question
a great and good work. What we have we approach one to which there must be
yet to do, I believe, bears with it the given a somewhat definite answer.
fate of the whole movement. I quite wel- quite with my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid,
come the attitude that prevails in this when he says that we should found this
Convention that there must be some pro-
constitution on the lines of the British
vision against deadlocks. I know that Constitution, so far as that is applicable.
there are very strong opinions entertained I am thoroughly with him when he says
even by some of my hon. colleagues froin that to properly understand the British
Victoria, that the less you do to interfere Constitution we can scarcely go further
with deadlocks the better. I know that back than 1832. At the end of the last
they still retain the opinions of a very century where was representative govern-
antique period in our history. I know ment? As we now understand it, it did
that they cling to traditions that most of not exist. It was still in the womb of
us have outgrown. I know that they do time. About 6,000 individuals could return
not yet fully grasp the change of thought at that time an absolute majority to the
which has taken place throughout the House of Commons, and when, in 1832,
British Empire on this all-important ques- the question that my right hon. friend re-
tion. But, sir, I believe a majority of us- ferred to was agitated by the British pub-
an overwhelming majority—entertain no lic, the House of Lords maintained the
sort of doubt as to the necessity at the pre- position that it was a co-ordinate branch
sent moment for inserting some provision in all respects of the British legislature.
-and a substantial, effectual provision-- The Duke of Wellington maintained that
to avert catastrophes in our legislation in if the House of Lords gave way there
the future. I do not think I can better would be a violation of the British Consti-
express the necessity for some such provi- tution, yet that noble lord not long after,
sion as that to which I have referred than to save the Constitution, counselled the
in the words of Sir Frederick Pollock, a house, of which he was so distinguished a
distinguished writer on political science, member, to give way. Since that time, Sir
when he points out that the view formerly Frederick Pollock tells us, the organism has
entertained with regard to the British Con- worked well, deadlocks have not occurred
stitution, that deadlocks were an element of frequently, and when they did occur, were
safety, and rather to becourted thanguarded easily mastered, not because there are
against, has now been abandoned, and that checks and balances, not because we have
we have ceased to regard as a proper form to depend on the mere goodwill or the moral
of government a constitution in which the silent force of public opinion, manifested to
hour and the minute hands and the striking the satisfaction of the legislature, but be-
part should all be governed by different cause it is recognised that in the last resort
mechanisms, with no provision for the there is only one power in the nation. If
various indicators marking the correct and you apply that test to the state, the answer
the same time. We are about to ask the is easy; but apply it to the federation and it
people of Australia to accept a huge and a is not so easy. That is the difficulty which
new machine. We know it will be costly. confronts us at the present time. While I
We can at least make it workable, and the agree absolutely with my right hon. friend,
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
661
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
If my
Mr. Reid, while I assent unreservedly as adopt a policy of surrender, but I am will-
a matter of argument to the opinions he ing and always have been willing—and my
has urged, still I see that we have not opinion in that regard is strengthening-
maintained those opinions in our progress to admit that we are bound to conciliate
through this constitution. If the right and compromise. I believe that the posi-
hon. gentleman had taken up his present tion taken up by my right hon. leader last
position absolutely upon the question of night is a true and correct one.
equal representation
right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, can put down
Mr. TRENWITH : As we ought all to on paper, not what I believe are national
have done!
matters, but what will satisfy the people
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If he had of all the colonies, are national matters
taken up that position upon the question and not state matters
of equal representation, and if he had re- Mr. SYMON : And every incident that
fused to move from it, he would have been, may possibly bear on state questions !
if I may be allowed to say so, much more The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: If my right
consistent than he is at the present mo- hon. friend can do that, I think there will
ment. My right hon. friend, the Premier be no difficulty in obtaining assent to his
of Victoria, said last night, and I desire to proposal. But on the other hand, once we
repeat it to-day, that if we can in this have arrived at the conclusion that the
Convention select matters which are of ex- fears of the smaller states as to the inva-
clusive national importance, then he would sion of what they think are state rights
not yield one jot in depending, in the last are not unreasonable--and from that point
resort, upon a national referendum to of view we have conceded equal representa-
settle them.
tion-then it seems to me not unreasonable
Mr. TRENWITH: Weought to put nothing also to weigh with a good deal of fairness
else in the constitution !
their claims in regard to this final arbitra-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: My right ment in disputes in the legislature. Now,
hon. friend and I are in perfect accord as my right hon. friend took the tariff and
far as my individual opinions are con- some other subjects. I would like to put
cerned. But can my right hon. friend hope to him one question, and I would ask him
to satisfy everyone that those opinions how he would decide it. Suppose, at some
are correct? If he could have done that, time or other, the proposal were agitated
there would not have been so much objec- in the federal parliament to divide the
tion to equal representation. It seems to states, for the electoral purposes of the
me that we are narrowing down to the senate, into six portions. It might be
question whether we are to stand, as the fairly claimed, and according to my opinion
right hon. member, Mr. Reid, said, each it would be rightly claimed, that it was a
in his last entrenchment, and defy the other national matter. According to the argu-
-whether we are each to stand in our last ments we have heard here, members of the
entrenchment and say
smaller states might say that it was essen-
An Hon. MEMBER: We are being driven tially a state matter. They might say,
back to them gradually!
“ The senators represent the states as
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Whether we states, and the states are right in deciding
are to say,
" This is our ultimatum; we to allow no alteration to be made in the
will not take federation on any other provision as to one electorate."
terms." I admit that there is a limit be- Mr. HIGGINS : Suppose you made an
yond which no one can go. I refuse to exception of that?
662
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: And of what as any man to a national referendum on
else ? Can the hon. member enumerate the those subjects; but I cannot fail to per-
exceptions? I feel theimpossibility of doing ceive-I have not failed all through the
so. I can understand the position we have passing of the bill through the Vic-
taken up, that the things we have placed torian legislature to perceive, and to give
in the constitution are or ought to be weight to the consideration--that if we
deemed to be national matters.
are to have a federation including the
Mr. SYMON: You cannot tell how they smaller colonies, we cannot hope to force
may affect the states !
upon them the national referendum even
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They all
in the last resort in all matters. I am
affect the states more or less. The ques-
forced to this conclusion much against
tion, according to my mind, is this : Is the my will. Hope sprang with some degree
matter a' national matter; if so, put it in my breast yesterday, when I heard
into the constitution; if not, leave it out. my hon. friend, Mr. Holder's admirable,
Of course, everything affects the states in patriotic speech, and I waited with some
some degree, or the states would not be degree of anxiety, and a large amount of
.concerned.
desire, to hear similar sentiments from
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: That is what other of my hon. friends from the smaller
We are dealing with now-state interests colonies.
in national affairs !
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: The hon. and
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I was about learned gentleman was disappointed !
to say that I can understand one position,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I was disap-
and I can also understand the other posi- pointed. I venture to indorse, with all
tion of the smaller states, that in all these my heart, every word that my right hon.
matters they insist upon having a voice as friend has said with regard to the views
states in one house of the legislature. But expressed by my hon. friend, Mr. Holder.
I feel the strongest difficulty in picking I believe that in the future, as this fed-
out matters which I can offer to the smaller eration proceeds, public sentiment will be-
states and say, “You ought to admit, con- come enlightened, and the views we have
sistently with all you have said before, urged, and the views to which that hon.
that these, at all events, are purely and gentleman gave expression yesterday, will
exclusively national matters.”
be admitted to be the right ones. I believe
Mr. GLYNN: No policy could affect that in the actual working of the consti-
them as
tution it will be found that those matters
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: You can which we have included in the bill will be
never tell until the question arises, and at matters that will not concern one state
this stage in the formation of a constitu- more or less than any other; but we cannot
tion, you cannot predicate whether in the
hether in the persuade our friends of that at the pre-
.course of our development those new prob- sent moment—we cannot hope to persuade
lems which will inevitably arise are exclu- them. We have to get the assent of the
sively national or state matters. That is smaller colonies before this constitution can
a task which none of us tainted with the
come into operation, and I would like to
weaknesses of humanity can ever hope to say this: that if we accept the double dis-
..accomplish.
solution and the dual referendum-as we
Mr. SYMON : It is not arguable ! believe they will yet be accepted, because
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If it can be Victoria can certainly claim that—and if
done, I am prepared to assent as firmly it should be found in the future that they
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs,
Commonwealth of
.:66:3
[16 SEPT, 1897.]
Australia Bill.
We are
are not sufficient, and if the public senti- words of warning, as it seems to me, that
ment in the other colonies should then be it is because the executive government is
willing to concede what we think now is the removed from the legislature that these
right provision, the provision which we now collisions, such as they are, take place
seek to insert will not be unalterable. If it without overturning the state.
be found in the future that collisions arise bound to take advantage of all that his-
that might lead to such disastrous conse- tory, and that writers in their observations
quences as civil war, then, if the two larger upon history, afford us, in order to frame
colonies think that the matter is really of for ourselves--to the advantage of our con-
such vital importance, one of the smaller stituents, if not to the honor of ourselves
colonies would at least be found to join a constitution that shall be as free as pos-
in averting the disastrous catastrophe by sible from the disadvantages we have seen
assenting to a change of the constitution. around us. Weshould much prefer that the
That is a matter we can hope for in the houses, if they differ, should not in the first
future; it is not a matter, I am afraid, that instance be subjected to the penalty of
- We can insist on at the present moment. dissolution. We have embodied in this
I would like to be able to say that I am constitution a provision for the dissolution
satisfied that this Convention will yield of the house of representatives, and I
at least what my right hon. friend, Sir should like to say to my hon. friends from
George Turner has asked for. I believe, the smaller colonies that if that were left
from what I have beard, that there is a standing unaccompanied by any other pro-
sufficient majority to grant that. I am vision, it might lead to very serious con-
not one of those who are prepared to say sequences for those smaller colonies. There
that, without that, federation is dead, but is no doubt that if we are to have respon-
I will say that, unless that at least is sible government we cannot do without a
granted, I fear very much the fate of it. provision for the dissolution of the house
I believe that the people of these colonies of representatives ; but—I would like to.
will not be satisfied with the provisions picture this--in the event of a collision
which were framed a hundred years ago between the two houses of the legislature,
in the American Constitution, and which and there being a mere provision in the
have been found sadly wanting. We have constitution for the dissolution of one
been told by speaker after speaker, who house, to ascertain the will of the popu-
evidently bad forgotten his “ Bryce,” that lation, if that house came back, strength-
collisions did not occur in the American ened, it may be, by the voice of their con-
legislature. Turn to that author, and you stituents, consisting of the people of the
will find that collisions are of frequent various colonies as a whole, and if the
occurrence. It is true that he points out senate refused to give way under those
that no great block occurs in administra- circumstances, what would be the
tion.
sult?
Mr. GLYNN : He says that they are mere The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : But why should
academic displays !
the senate not give way?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: He says that The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The hon.
no great block occurs in administration ; gentleman knows that to maintain the
but he adds that if the same collisions position of equal rights, he must adhere
occurred in countries having responsible to the position that the senate is not
government, the consequence would be bound to give way to the views of the
much more serious. He points out in house of representatives.
re-
664 Commonwealth of [16 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
The Hon. A. Douglas: The senate going to reject me for standing by the
would be open to reason as well as the rights of your colony? Are you going to
other house!
be guilty of such ingratitude as to eject
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes ; I am me from the senate because, in opposition
sure that the senate would be open to to the desire of the large colonies, I wished
reason, but the people of the larger colonies to preserve your rights and privileges?"
will not be satisfied with that argument. There could be only one answer to that
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Nor any other! question, and the result would be that the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Therefore, I senators would come back, and the senate
I would put it, as a matter for careful con- would not only be in as strong a posi-
sideration, to my hon. friends from the tion as it was in before, but it could
smaller colonies, whether it is not neces- not give way because it had received what
sary, for their sakes, as well as for the would be considered to be a new and
sake of the opinion of the larger colonies, imperative mandate from its constituents.
that some provision for averting deadlocks On the other hand it might be that the
should be inserted in this constitution. electors of the states would be of a differ-
There is no doubt about it. I think that ent mind, and if so the double dissolution
they are absolutely satisfied that the larger would have done its work. If, as I appre-
colonies will not go into this federation hend, that might not be effectual, and in
without some such provision — without any question of state rights, or so called
some provision which would be effectual state rights, it would not be effectual, then,
and they are satisfied, I have not the if we had the dual referendum, we could
slightest doubt, that a mere provision for say to the people of the states, “ We ask
dissolution would not be deemed suffi- you to avert a catastrophe in the common-
cient for the larger colonies, because, as I wealth." The people themselves could do
put it to my hon. friend, Sir Joseph it with dignity. It is their rights and
Abbott, yesterday, suppose that a double their privileges that are in question, and
dissolution takes place, what will hap while their representatives and senators,
pen? I should like hon, gentlemen who as trustees of the will of their own con-
entertain any doubt as to the result of stituencies, cannot, dare not, yield, the
a double dissolution to consider how it people themselves, who are masters of their
practically works. We will assume that own destiny, may say, “On the whole we
the two houses are at variance. We will are prepared to waive what our representa-
assume the matter to be of such import- tives in their fidelity to us have thought
ance that a double dissolution, with all to be necessary to us. We are prepared
its expense,
is determined upon. The sena- to meet the larger populations." Or, on
tors go back to their constituents. The the other hand, the larger populations may
question is a matter of state rights, as "We are prepared to meet the smaller
they think. Does any one imagine for a ones." To my mind it is a mode, in ninety-
moment that, whether the people of the nine cases out of a hundred, of effectually
smaller states think with or in opposition settling any deadlock. The hundredth
to their representatives, they will reject case may safely be left to take care of
them? Will it not be an overwhelming itself. But it is also a means of conserv-
argument for any senator to say to his con- ing the dignity of both houses ; because
stituents, who, presumably, are satisfied as Sidgwick points out—as my hon. friend,
with him on every other point, “Are you . Mr. Dobson, a student of that autho-
going to reject me for my action? Are you rity, will remember---one house may not
say,
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
665
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
be able with dignity to yield to the other the argument, which, perhaps, some of my
house ; but either house may with dignity hon. friends have not shaken themselves
yield to the people. And, after all, what clear of yet, that the people are best go-
is the theory of our constitution? Go.. verned when they are not allowed to go-
vernment by the people. Why not effec- vern themselves. That, I think, is a theory
tuate it? What is the inherent objection that ought to pass away as soon as pos
to it? What is the objection to put into sible. What is the argument? When my
black and white, into actual practice, this hon. friend, Mr. Fraser, stands in that
theory which is vaunted by every parlia- chamber of which he is such a distinguished
mentarian? We are told that it is de- ornament, and resists a measure which has
structive to responsible government. I do been passed by the lower house
not believe it. I believe it is the crown The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The Fac-
and roof of responsible government. What tories Bill, for instance !
is responsible government? In the first The Hon. S. FRASER : The Products
place, responsibility of a ministry to par- Export Bill!
liament. But why to parliament? Be-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : A very good
cause parliament represents and is respon-
instance.
sible to the people. And if we say that The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: One China-
the end and object of responsible govern- man, one factory!
ment is that the will of the people shall The CHAIRMAN: I do not think we ought
prevail, why should we tie ourselves down to discuss Victorian politics.
to institutions that, perhaps, at the pre- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I am trying
sent day prevent us from attaining the end to put this as an illustration. What would
they are designed to serve?
my hon. friend, or any other member of
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: We have the legislative council, say, in opposing a
different peoples here. This is not a homo- measure sent to him by the popular cham-
geneous state. My people are not neces- ber? “The people are opposed to this.
sarily thy people !
That is the answer; and if there was a
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I think my dissolution on that question, and if the as-
observations give full weight to that idea. sembly came back reinforced, the other
I am now dealing with the objection of chamber would pass the bill. Why? Be-
some hon. members who point out the cause the people had declared in its favour.
supposed danger of the referendum. If that is a sincere objection, what can be
am putting it to them, why should there the reason of the opposition to taking the
be any objection to a referendum on the views of the people in the clearest manner
ground of its being an appeal to the people? possible ?
The Hon. S. FRASER : Because it may The Hon. S. FRASER : With sufficient
be used to their disadvantage in times of time I have no objection to that!
excitement !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: That is a great
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I can under- advance. I am very glad to hear that. I
stand the swaddling clothes theory. I still have hope of my hon. friend.
can understand the old story that the An Hon. MEMBER : Ten years !
people are ignorant.
The Hon. I. A.ISAACS : I should like to
The Hon. S. FRASER: No!
ask my hon. friend if the time is not past
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: If they are not when we are to regard a second-hand in-
ignorant, why should they not be allowed terpretation of the people's will as the only
to decide their own fate? I can understand mode of gathering it? Why are we to
666
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897]
say that members of parliament, elected The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : And, as he
as they are at the present time, are to be puts it, exhaust the principle of responsi-
the sole means of obtaining a recognition bility ; I do not quite follow that, but still
- of the people's will? Do we not know- it is a matter which no doubt would have
as has been said so truly by my right hon. great weight. If that is done, what pos-
friend, Sir George Turner-that at an sible objection remains? I do not think all
election each constituency deals with its that preliminary course is necessary. One
candidates as it pleases, and not necessarily hundred years ago people had not the
on one subject or on another? Do we not facilities for the interchange of thought,
find that where there are double constitu- for self-education, and for obtaining the
encies, as there are still in some of the views of their friends and fellow-citizens,
colonies, there are men with distinctly which they have now. But in these days,
opposite opinions returned by the same with all the industrial improvements which
constituency to parliament ?
How can
have been made, with the existence of rail-
it be said that the people's will has been ways and telegraphs, with the magnificent
expressed definitely in such a case? We apparatus of the press, they have every
know very well that there are a multi- opportunity for the interchange of opinions
tude of considerations which determine the and the collection of thought, and, there-
selection of a member? Therefore, if ever fore, why should we not adopt the best
a great question arises between the senate means possible, those means which have
and the house of representatives—a ques- been adopted in other countries, for con-
tion of such a grave and important char- verging public opinion at critical moments
acter that expense is to be disregarded, upon definite questions, and thus focussing
that a dissolution is to be resorted to, the desires of the people upon the question
and still the matter is to be left in doubt which demands a perfect solution ?
and in contest—and if, still further, it is The Hon. S. FRASER : All the countries
deemed of so urgent a nature that the in which these means have been adopted
will of the people should be definitely are foreign countries; they are not coun-
ascertained to prevent what is worse-
I tries in the van of civilisation, as British
would ask my hon. friend what legitimate communities are !
objection there is to asking the people the The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN :
necessary question in the clearest, the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I am prepared
shortest, and most definite manner pos- to accept what is good ; I care not whence
sible ?' The observations of my hon, and it comes. I am quite prepared to accept
learned friend, Mr. Barton, last night, a measure, whatever be the place of its
should be weighed well by every member origin, if it commends itself to my reason
of the Convention. He said that if the and intelligence. But I should like to
double dissolution were interposed between point out that the countries to which my
the quarrel and the final solution—or what hon. friend refers are not foreign to us in
was hoped to be the final solution-it their origin, in their primitive modes of
would give time for education, it would thought, or in their ideas of freedom. We
give time for reflection, and it would give know that every state in the American
time and opportunity to put before the Union, with the exception of Delaware,
people the true nature of the question and has accepted the principle of the referen-
the arguments for and against it.
dum. Millions of people in America are
The Hon. E. BARTON : And exhaust governed by state constitutions in which
the principle of responsibility!
the principle is embodied.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
.667
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. GLYNN : That is to stop legislation, The Hon. I. A. ISA ACS: No, not when
not to precipitate it!
there is a disagreement; only when they
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I was going agree. Article 120 continues :
to observe that it is mostly of a negative
If, in either case, the majority of the Swiss
citizens who vote pronounce in the affirmative,
nature. But there is a strong movement
there shall be a new election of both councils for
on foot in America at the present time the purpose of preparing amendments.
that the power of initiative should be Article 121. The amended federal constitution
embodied in some form or other even in
shall be in force when it has been adopted by
the majority of Swiss citizens who take part in
the federal constitution. In Switzerland
the vote thereon, and by a majority of the states
a form of referendum exists which is closely In making up a majority of the states, the vote
analogous to that which we now suggest.
of a half canton is counted as half a vote. The
result of the popular vote in each canton is
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: The application
considered to be the vote of the state.
of the referendum after legislation !
These provisions of the Constitution were
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The hon, adopted in January, 1874, and the book
member speaks of the referendum being from which I am quoting was published in
applied after legislation. I would like to
May, 1891. Up to that time the Swiss
point out that there is a very common people had the right of initiative only in
error upon this point. In Switzerland the regard to amendments of the Constitu-
federal constitution has been changed
tion. Since then, however, they have gone
many times. As Mr. Winchester has told further, and I will quote from a book called
us, there has been a gradual development
"Direct Legislation by the People," written
from the provincial idea to a grand national by Mr. Cree. He, at page 179, gives a
idea, and that is growing day by day. The very important extract from the Berne
Swiss in their constitution of 1848 were
correspondent of the New York Evening
far behind what they were in 1874. In
Post, under date of 30th July, 1891, giving
1874 their constitution made this provision
an account of the adoption by the Swiss
for amendments :
of the initiative as to federal laws.
Article 11s. The federal constitution may at
The republic has taken the most advanced step
any time be amended.
towards democracy upon which it has ever ven-
Article 119. Amendment is secured through
tared, namely, the application of the initiative,
the forms required for passing federal laws.
or what may be better called the imperative
petition, to federal laws. The institution of the
So that there they can amend the constitu- referendum, or the submission of laws just
tion without any reference at all to the enacted to popular vote, when demanded by
people in the first place.
30,000 citizens, was already in existence; but
the power to demand that a given project be
Article 120. When either council of the federal
made law has just this month been assumed by
assembly passes a resolution for amendment of
the people. On Sunday, 7th July, the necessary
the federal constitution and the other council
constitutional amendment was voted upon in a
does not agree; or when 50,000 Swiss voters
general election, and passed. The vote was very
demand amendment, the question whether the light, but the majority in favour of the law quite
federal constitution ought to be amended is, in decisive. A special session of the Federal As-
either case, submitted to a vote of the Swiss
sembly was called for 27th July, and yesterday
people, voting yes or no.
the law which sets the initiative in operation
I would like to state to my hon. friend,
passed the Lower House.
as he has no doubt observed, that that
I pass over a portion of the account which
is where there is a disagreement of the
is not material, and on page 181, I find it
stated :
chambers.
The substance of the new law is to the effect
The Hon. E. BARTON: We provide for that when 50,000 voters petition for an amend-
that whether there is a disagreementor not! ment to the constitution, or for the adoption of
668
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
t
a statute, the federal assembly must submit the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS:Ihave not very
requested proposition within a given time to
much to add to what I have already said,
popular vote. The government may, at the same
and after the exhaustive manner in which
time, present a project of its own for choice, but
in any case there can be no avoidance of the the Right Hon. Sir George Turner dealt
duty of giving the people a chance to say whether with the matter last night, I should have
they want such a law or not. If a majority of been well content to leave this Conven-
all votes cast, and at the same time a majority of
tion to arrive at a determination without
all the states, are in favour of it, the proposition
becomes law.
further words from me; but after the
I have read those extracts for the purpose
splendid deliverance of the Right Hon. G.
of correcting an impression that I find pre-
H. Reid, and the views he put forward,
valent that there is no provision anywhere,
and in consideration of the magnitude of
even in the Swiss Constitution, for settling
the subject, and the great importance of
a deadlock by means of the referendum or
the issue, I should be wanting in my duty
for passing legislation which has not been if I did not venture to place before the
passed by the Parliament. They go even be-
Convention the views I have expressed.
yond what we propose. We propose that
I know that debate on this matter may
if after due deliberation, after exhausting
not be useless at any stage. I recognise
the means of conciliation, of compromise,
the importance of settling this matter in
of mutual good feeling and understanding,
some way before we disperse ; because, if
there shall still prevail misunderstanding
we do not, a severe blow will be given to
between the two houses of legislature, and
the confidence of the people in the various
after the full play of public opinion has
colonies. But I also recognise the great
been allowed to exert itself by means of
difficulty of arriving at a conclusion that
the platform and the press, and all other
would be eminently satisfactory to all
agencies known to our civilisation, upon a
concerned. There is a vast amount of truth
measure which has been passed by one
in what has been urged on behalf of the
legislative body, there still exists a strong smaller colonies, that they cannot consent
feeling on the part of one of the legislative
to a national referendum on all questions.
agencies of the people that the measure
There is a vast amount of truth in what
should be passed into law, while there also
has been urged by the Right Hon. G. H.
exists an equally strong objection on the
Reid, that there may be some questions
part of the other legislative agency of the
on which it would be right that the smaller
people to its being passed into law, the prin- states should concede that a national refer-
cipals to the dispute properly adjusted as the
endum would be desirable. I think I am
states and the nation shall be called upon right in saying that it would be impossible
to decide the question. I am told that
to predicate in advance what subjects pro-
this provision is not absolutely and com-
perly appertain to the two classes. It may
pletely effective; but is not that the result be that, seeing the smaller states will be
of the federal constitution as we are fram- represented in the house of representatives
ing it? If we are to have a proposal that according to population, they can see their
is to be absolutely effective it may mean
way to consider and perhaps accept a via
in certain cases the annihilation of the prin- media
media—a mode which would enable the
ciple of equal representation, and having particular question to be determined as it
granted that principle it behoves us to be
For instance, I throw this out for
loyal to it.
consideration : If some certain proportion
[The Chairman left the chair at 1 p.m. ; the
of the house of representatives were to
Convention resumeil at 2 p.m.]
agree that it was not a state matter-that
arose.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
669
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australic Bill.
it was a national matter to all intents and what Victoria has put forward, there is,
purposes a national referendum might be in spite of the observations of the Right
employed for the determination of the Hon. G. H. Reid, not only a certainty of
question. That, if adopted, would enable our friends from the smaller colonies com-
us to have the matter determined on the ing in, but the strongest probability of
spot.
However that is a question for New South Wales joining us. I do not
consideration. But I do think that, entertain any fear that New South Wales
having accepted the principle of equal re- will stand out if the Victorian proposal is
presentation, we must not take a step that carried, but I do say that if neither the
will cause our friends from the smaller Victorian proposal nor the national refer-
colonies to possibly lose the benefit of the endum be carried, there is, if I judge
concession which we have made. I know the matter rightly, an absolute certainty
that, in making the observations I have of New South Wales standing out, and
the honor to address to the Convention to- in all probability Victoria also. I am not
day, I run counter to the opinions of a prepared to accept the responsibility of
good many of my fellow colonists. I know giving a vote that must necessarily end
that in some respects the conclusions at in disaster. We have determined upon: a
which I have arrived will not command course which has been explained to the
the assent of a journal in my colony. Convention by my right bon. leader, which
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Never we have the strongest hopes will end, if
mind them!
adopted, in the consummation of federa-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: But I do tion. At all events we shall not incur the
mind them.
responsibility of failure. We shall ask our
The Hon. Sir JOSEPII ABBOTT: We do respective populations to accept it, and
pot !
their will must in this case be the highest
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: But I do, law.
and the people of Victoria mind them. It Mr. WALKER : Whatever may be the
is a journal that must be recognised as a result of this division?
'most important factor. I simply say that
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If our pro-
on this great question of federation-and I posal is accepted.
am sure my remarks will not be misunder- Mr. WALKER: Oh! !
stood, because it is a fact-it has a right to The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I am per-
be taken into consideration. It has urged fectly frank. We have departed to a large
views that are acknowledged by all to extent from what we have urged, and we
be powerful as well as patriotic. It has say we will not take a course which we
placed its views before the public in the say we know will end in absolute disaster.
various colonies, and particularly in Vic- But we shall do our best to frame a
toria in language that has reached both the constitution that will offer the strongest
reason and the emotions. At the same time possibilities of acceptance, and we shall
we have all to perform our duty as well as hope for acceptance by our respective
While on the one hand I see that peoples. But its rejection, if that should
if we accept the national referendum in unfortunately take place, must be the work,
all cases without qualification, it means not of ourselves, but of our constituents.
the utter failure of the scheme as it stands, I am sure I shall not be misunderstood
that we shall see to a certainty our best when I say to my friends from the smaller
hopes dispersed, our greatest aspirations colonies that I invoke all the patriotism
baffled; on the other hand if we accept which I know animates them to help us in
we can.
670
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
this emergency. I ask them not to allow point of view. We must take into con-
any too rigid adherence to their particular sideration the opinion of the people of the
views
larger colonies. We must take into con-
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: We recognise sideration the fears and the prejudices of
the feeling which the hon. member ex- the people of New South Wales and Vic-
presses !
toria, and, if we possibly can give into these
The Hon. I. ISAACS : I am glad my
fears and prejudices in a reasonable way
hon. friend recognises it. I am sure the
consistently with our own safety and honor.
time approaches when the practical appli- I think we are bound to do it for the pur-
oation of that feeling will become neces-
pose of bringing about federation. That
sary, and I do hope we shall all unite, I being the case, we have now to consider
trust unanimously, to pass a constitution
the proposals which have been placed be-
that will convince the people of the vari-
fore us. I think that this Committee owes
ous colonies that we have done a great
a debt of gratitude to its learned leader
work, that we have done a work which, if
for the able and statesmanlike speech in
it achieves ultimate success, will reflect
which he put the whole case before us
honor and credit upon ourselves and our
last night. The first step that he sug-
children. I do sincerely trust that at this gested was a double dissolution. Although
supreme moment we shall not fall into dis- I am prepared to go a long way with
union, that it shall not be said of our efforts the representatives of Victoria and New
on this occasion that its end was failure,
South Wales, yet, as at present advised, I
because I doubt in that case if the people object to a dissolution of the senate under
of Australia would again in our lifetime
any circumstances. It may be that here-
nerve themselves to another effort such as after I may see fit to modify this view;
that which has brought us here.
but at present I think we should not con-
Mr. HIGGINS : Surely they are not so
sent to any dissolution of the senate. Such
lifeless as all that!
a course as that would destroy the con-
tinuity of that body, and would prevent it
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They are not
from being in the degree we wish it to be,
lifeless, but this is not a work that can be
the guardian of state rights and interests.
undertaken every day. Therefore, I trust
But while I object to a dissolution of the
this may bring forth good fruit, and that
senate under any circumstances, such as
it shall not be said of us and of our work:
would be the case in a matter of deadlock, I
'Tis an old tale : Jove strikes the Titans down,
Not when they set about their mountain-piling,
am perfectly willing to concede the prin-
ciple of the double referendum. The people
Mr. CLARKE (Tasmania) [2:16]: As
of Victoria and New South Wales want
I come from one of the smaller states, some scheme of referendum, and I beliere
which holds a very strong opinion on this if we wish to bring about federation it is
subject, I desire to state the position I absolutely necessary for this Committee to
intend to take up. In Tasmania, which devise some system of referendum. Now,
I have the honor to represent, the public two schemes have been placed before us :
opinion is that there is no necessity to there is the mass referendum and there
insert in the constitution a provision for is the double referendum. I am in favour
dealing with deadlocks; but, all the same, of the latter system, because it preserves
although that is the strong opinion of the the rights of the various states. The fed-
Tasmanian people, I think we must look eral principle, as I take it, and as bas been
at the question now before us from every enunciated time after time in the Conven-
Put when another rock would crown their task.
[The Hon. I. 4. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
671
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion and in this Committee, is that all we propose to assign those matters to be
federal legislation requires the assent of a dealt with by the federal parliament. But
majority of the nation, and the assent of when we separate those subjects which can
a majority of the states. If you give a be better dealt with by the federal autho-
mass referendum you violate this prin- rity, in what kind of way do we want the
ciple. You blot out our state boundaries, federal parliament to deal with them? We
you ignore our state life, and you might want these subjects, according to my view,
just as well enact at the start that, if the to be dealt with federally, and not in the
house of representatives and the senate way in which the parliament of a unified
differ on any question, the senate shall al- commonwealth would deal with them. We
ways go under. That is my view of the have handed over these subjects as matters
mass referendum, and it is for that reason of federal concern, and not as matters that
I am thoroughly opposed to it. We had an are to be dealt with by a parliament repre-
able speech to-day from the Premier of New senting one people. If the project of the
South Wales. It was eloquent in many Premier of New South Wales were carried
passages, but I could not help asking my- out, what would the result be? We should
self when he bad finished, as some members enumerate a number of subjects which
of the English Parliament used from time would be dealt with by the federal parlia-
to time to ask concerning the speeches of ment, as the representatives of one people.
Mr. Gladstone, “after all what in reality We should be establishing a system of unifi-
has he said; what are really his opinions, cation, and not a federal system. We were
and what does he propose ?” As far as I sent here to form, not a constitution for
can gather, the hon. gentleman said that we a unified Australia, but a constitution for a
ought to separate in clause 52 of the consti- federated Australia. For these reasons, I do
tution the number of subjects which ought not think there is any virtue in the proposal
to be dealt with by a mass referendum, and of Mr. Reid. The right hon. gentleman
that we ought to apply the mass referendum was good enough to compare the double
for the purpose of getting over deadlocks referendum to a last ditch, in which he said
arising on any of those subjects. That is a the constitution of Australia would find
project which, in the words of Mr. Gladstone, itself, and its last position would be worse
I may say passes the wit of man. I do not
than the first. I do not think the right hon.
*think any member of this Convention is gentleman was quite correct in his compari-
capable of distinguishing between those son, but I would like to say that if the pro-
subjects which, under no circumstances ject of a mass referendum were carried out,
involve state rights or state interests, and
that referendum would be the ditch into
those subjects which do. The right hon. which the house of representatives would
gentleman went through all these subjects pitch the senate. As we want in federation
in clause 52; but, in my humble opinion, the essent of the people of the states to all
if there is any subject out of the thirty- legislation, we should carry out the principle
seven subjects mentioned in that clause to the utmost, and we should not introduce
which does not involve state rights and into this constitution any system of dealing
state interests, it has no right whatever to with deadlocks which would violate that
be there. We have enumerated in clause principle. There must be the assent of the
52 a number of matters which we consider people, and of the majority of the states,
can be better discharged by the federal andinasmuch as the double referendum does
parliament than by the state parlianients not violate this principle, which I consider
individually. It is for that reason that the main principle of a true federation, I
672
Australia Bill.
Commonucalth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
am, therefore, in favour of supporting, as able men always yield where they know
one means for getting rid of deadlocks, the the greater force exists against them. If I
proposal that we should have this double offend against the standing orders of this
referendum.
Convention, and I am named by the Presi-
The Hon. Dr. ' COCKBURN (South dent, and the Sergeant-at-Arms touches me
Australia) [2:24]: I have only a few words on the shoulder, I walk out at once without
to say; but I do not wish the debate to any display of force, because I know I
close without expressing my views on the
have to go. I know that in the last resort
subject. As the last speaker has said,
I have to go; therefore, it is just as well
we have listened to an exceedingly able
to go at once; and the senate will know
and eloquent speech from the Premier of that, in the last resort, it has to give way,
New South Wales. The effect which that
and it may just as well give way without
right hon. gentleman produces on any
an idle struggle, of which the result is ab-
assembly he addresses is very marked, solutely assured. Therefore, I say the ques-
whether it be in the Centennial Hall or
tion really comes to this: that we have had
in this Chamber. It takes some time
it gravely proposed here, afterall these years
before the effects of the magic of his elo-
of debate about the functions of the senate,
quence can be dissipated; but when the that, practically, the senate is a useless body
whole of his speech is winnowed down,
in a federation. The way in which this
his contention comes simply to this—and, opinion bas gradually come to be expressed
to my mind, it involves somewhat of a
with this frankness has been very insidious.
contradiction in terms—that, in federal
When we met in 1891, you, Mr. Chair-
matters—matters under the jurisdiction
man, remember that we had an overwhelm-
of the federal parliament—there shall be
ing majority in favour of a senate, as a co-
unification, That is a contention which
ordinate house, with equal powers and
I never heard raised until the Convention equal representation to that of the house
met in Sydney. Certainly, during the
of representatives. I have not the IIansard
elections which preceded the formation of
of 1891 before me, but I am perfectly sure
this Convention, such a proposition was
that that was the deliberate opinion of two-
never considered in the colony of which I
thirds of the representatives when first they
have the honor of being a representative.
assembled here. Then committees were ap-
The proposition really comes down to this: pointed, and by some means or other the
that, in federal matters, you need only
two-thirds dwindled down until we found
have one house; that the senate is abso-
ourselves in a minority. The senate was
lutely useless, because, sooner or later, the
not to have co-ordinate powers ; but it was
majority of the most populous colonies is
to have what those who refused these co.
to prevail. Of course, we have been treated ordinate and co-equal powers maintained
with the greatest possible candour by the
was practically the same thing. We were
representatives of the larger colonies in this to have the power of suggestion, which it
matter. The hon, member, Mr. O'Connor,
was maintained was equal to the right of
admitted that, in the last resort, unification
amendment of money bills. So the matter
was his intention, and it has been very
closed at that stage. Then the question
properly argued, and with irrefutable logic, was raised of equal representation, and
that if that is so in the last resort it may
we had to fight that, after conceding the
just as well be so in the first instance. Men
other point.
Then it appears that that
will not struggle against anything when point is yielded, but only in order to under-
they know the result is inevitable. Reason-
mine us by something which takes away
[Mr. Clarke.
Commonwealth of
673
[16 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
the value of the power of suggestion, of in 1891, I was one of the few advocates of
equal representation, and everything else it in this chamber. If I remember rightly,
in connection with the senate.
If we are
I think I proposed the referendum on that
to have an ultimate appeal to the popular occasion. I believe no harm could ever be
majority on federal matters, then those who done in taking the views of the people ;
somewhat grudgingly gave us the principle but I want to know who are the people
of equal representation in the senate might, whose views we are going to take? The
without hesitation and without endanger- voice of the people must rule, of course,
ing their position in the slightest degree, but we want to be sure about what we mean
have given us equal representation, or when we talk about the voice of the people.
even have given the smaller colonies the When the Premier of New South Wales
representation of two to one-twelve mem- talks about the voice of the people as being
bers instead of six in the senate. Even necessarily supreme, he means the voice of
then they would have been perfectly safe, the people of the larger colonies, and, to a
because in the ultimate resort they would great extent, the voice of the people of his
be bound to have their way.
own colony. But I consider the voice of
Mr. HIGGINS : It is illogical ; but have the democracy of South Australia has also
we not been told again and again that we a right to be considered.
That is just as
are not to be logical ?
much the voice of the people, although the
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We have people are not so many; and I say there
to deal with practical questions. We have
is no chance whatever of any principle of
to consider what would be the cases in which democracy being endangered by some con-
the senate would dare to stand out against sideration being given to the opinion of
the popular majority in the whole of Aus- the people of such a state as that of South
tralia or a majority in the house of repre-
Australia. The voice of the people must
sentatives. It would be only in cases where prevail in the long run because the people
some injustice or coercion was threatened
understand best what is for their own
against one or more states. These would
interests. I would put my hands willingly
be the only cases in which, practically, the
into those of the men who advocate theright
senate would stand firm, and these would of the people to govern their own affairs,
be the very cases in which the deadlock but not necessarily to administer the affairs
provisions would be brought into play.
of others without some check or restriction.
The result would be that the constitutional As has been said by one of the authorities
provisions for deadlocks would only be -I think Freeman-the question of local
brought into play when they were meant to bondage or local liberty does not at all de-
buttress up, support, and perpetuate some
pend upon the form of the central govern-
contemplated injustice or coercion. I say
ment. You can have local freedom under
that between the two houses the great
the veriest autocracy which ever existed,
remedy for deadlocks must be reasonable- and you can have local bondage under a
ness on the part of men, and on the part representative government.
The people
of colonies; but this reasonableness must
can be trusted to manage their own affairs,
be in view of no present or prospective because they know what their own interests
compulsion. However, I am quite willing are ; but the people cannot be trusted to
for one to concede the principle of a refer-
manage the affairs of others without some
ence to the people whenever any deadlock
check. It has been suggested that we
or difficulty arises. I have always been
should take out of clause 52 all those
an advocate of the referendum. I think,
subdivisions which are purely matters of
3 A
674
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
national interests. I notice that the Pre- to which the conditions of the localities are
mier of New South Wales read through most favourable. We may have, I believe
thirty of them, but he did not go as far as we shall have, in South Australia one or
the 31st.
two industries which, if they are not abso-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: 'I did not lutely confined to our boundaries, will, at
know what the 31st was !
least flourish there to their greatest pos-
The Hon. Dr. OOCKBURN: It is only sible extent. Yet the question of the main-
the question of the right of South Australia tenance or development of those industries
to have some voice in the management of may not be at all a vital question to the
the Murray waters within her own terri- eastern colonies, 'who have large popula-
tory.
tions. We all know that, as regards the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I was question of the tariff, there is an infinite
afraid of wearying the Committee 'by read- difference of opinion. The interests of the
ing them all!
consuming population may be opposed to
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: In the the interests of the producing population.
,thirty sub-clauses which the Premier of The tariff may favour the consumer, who
New South Wales read there are many wants the article free of duty, although
which, although dealing with matters of the taking it out of the tariff may have the
national importance, also very seriously most detrimental effect upon the producer
and vitally touch the interest of the states. who raises the particular article. Then
I do not think it is possible to point to a we know that there are what are termed
single one of those sub-clauses which may manufactured products which from another
not at some time or other become a ques- point of view are regarded as raw material.
tion of vital interest to one or more states. So one can quite foresee that upon questions
We had an eloquent speech from the hon. affecting some of the industries of the colo-
member, Mr. Wise, in which he pointed nies, not on the eastern coasts, but possibly
out most conclusively that even a line in in South Australia, possibly in the North-
the tariff, although a national question, .ern Territory, possibly in Western Aus-
might be of so much importance to one tralia, possibly in Tasmania, there may be
or more states as practically to threaten a complete difference of opinion as to the
their deepest interests. We have only desirableness of this or that article being
to consider this, and we shall see that put within the pages of a protective tariff.
the 'hon. gentleman was perfectly justi. This may be a matter of vital interest, and
fied in what he said. We have all sorts you cannot expect the smaller states to
and conditions of climate in Australia, surrender practically all their voice in the
and an industry may become of the most matter, as they would if there were a mass
vital importance to one portion of Aus- referendum. I think we may well be par-
tralia which may not be one of the larger doned for having some little fear as to the
colonies possessing the larger population. conditions of the future. Still I do not
And is no adequate consideration to be think the panic as to the future comes from
given to the views of the representatives the smaller states, although from their
from that colony, whose interests are so unprotected condition they have most to
deeply affected, as to what the tariff is fear. It seems to me that gentlemen from
to be? When we have federation the the larger states have been those who have
industries of Australia will become local- been most fearsome as to what may occur.
ised, and having free-trade within our own But they are men in armour; they have
boundary, those industries will spring up nothing to fear.
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
675
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Your side ance to us? When you are opening 'up a
has been safe all through !
new country, I say that it is of infinite
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We importance
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That would
"have given up one after another of our
be rather a matter of administration than
props.
legislation !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Still you
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We know
have a number left!
the importance of having some voice in
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: But the
legislative chambers, even in matters of
right hon. gentleman, if he had his way,
administration. The opening up of a wheat
would take them all from us.
market may depend upon whether you
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No, I can get a line of telegraph constructed,
would not; I would provide for every state in order that the producer and the buyer
right in the constitution !
may be brought into intimate relations. Is
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It seems not that a question in which the states,
to me that we have given everything away having enjoyed absolute autonomy in such
until we have come to this prop, which is matters, should be considered ? Then take
our all, and I think it behoves us, seeing defences. Under the heading of defences
that all the tendency is to put power into you can do almost anything. With un-
the hands of the large populations, to be a limited means to spend you can make
little timid. A little timidity on our part roads, bridges—in fact, you can make or
is not out of place, but it is not becoming mar the destinies of a whole portion of
for those who have the great force of num-
Australia.
bers with them to display in this matter
An Hon. M:EMBER: Leave that out!
such unreasoning fears as they do. I shall The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: You can-
certainly support the principle of the re- not leave it out, because it is one of the
ferendum,not the mass referendum, but great national questions. The questions
the double referendum so ably put forward
of defence and of tariff are national ques-
on so many occasions by the Attorney-Gene- tions of supreme degree.
ral of Victoria. I would like to say again Mr. HIGGINS : Why should they not be
with regard to the proposition of the Right nationally treated ?
Hon. the Premier of New South Wales to The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Because
differentiate in the sub-divisions of clause we propose to federate.
52, and strike out all those questions
An Hon. MEMBER: You assume a cer-
which are of state interest, that it is not tain narrow meaning for federation ?
possible to make any such differentia- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: According
tion. Let me give a few instances. Take
to the hon. member « federation" means
the question of postal, telegraph, or tele-
the rule by the minority of the majority !
phone services. Are there no state inter- The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No, it does
ests connected with those services ? At the not. What I say is that a certain right
present time, we have the sole management of veto should be given to a majority of
of those affairs in our hands, and we know the states when their interests are threat-
how it is possible so to administer the de- ened. The right hon. the Premier of
partment as to assist the development of New South Wales asked us to point out
the colonies we represent. Is that continu- those matters which involved state inter-
ance of good management within our own ests. Take ocean beacons and buoys and
boundaries, in this respect, of no import light-houses.
676
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Are they so huge as this island of Australia, where
subjects for a referendum?
there is every variety of climatic condi-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No; but tion, even the question of quarantine may
in the administration of those matters you become a question in which the very exist-
may make one port and mar another. ence of a state is threatened. We have a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID:
tropical climate, we have a sub-tropical
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : A go- climate, and we have a temperate climate.
vernment will do what it has the power The northern portion of the island is tropi-
to do.
cal. A tropical disease may threaten Aus-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No; it tralia which we know cannot obtain any
will live as quietly as it can !
footing in the eastern, southern, or western
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It will, provinces. Protection against this disease
knowing that it has the power, often go may be of insignificance to the larger
near to the full exercise of it. A true populations, those living in the temperate
federal government would not do so, be- climate to the south, but it may be a ques-
cause we should have an adequate voice in
tion of the most vital importance, a ques-
a federal government. There is the senate tion of the very existence of the population
in a federal government to be considered, which may ultimately gather on our north-
and we do not pre-suppose that the senate ern seaboard. We hardly know these con-
will he composed of men of straw, who ditions yet, but I could enumerate half a
ultimately must give in, who have the dozen diseases
right to their opinion only until the clôture The Right Hon. G. H. REID : We have
is put on them.
We should not have any a common interest in preventing disease
rights at all. What would be the rights from decimating Australia ?
of the senate if in the last resort it had to The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: But it
give way? Of course, even cases of the would not decimate Australia, because it
greatest injustice would not be called in- could only affect a few people, a compara-
justice, because we know that injustice is tively small portion of the northern parts
never perpetrated under that name; but a of this continent.
central authority very often errs through The Right Hon. G. H. REID : But it
ignorance of the local conditions. It does might travel!
not want to do an injustice, but it does The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I mean
not fully appreciate the conditions of dis- diseases that would not travel; diseases
tant localities. One of the objects of the that are strictly tropical.
senate in which every colony would have The Right Hon. G. H. REID : If they
adequate representation is to protect inter- would not travel they ought not to come
ests which might be invaded under such under a federal act !
circumstances. If you adopted the mass The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: You can-
referendum you would strike at the very not pick out these things. The question
root of the power of the senate. You might be one affecting two or three colo-
would practically render its deliberations nies possibly-it might affect Queensland
futile. The representation of the smaller and South Australia only, or possibly also
states would become a negligible quantity a portion of Western Australia. It might
in the commonwealth. Then take the ques- be a question of vital importance to those
tion of quarantine. That would appear colonies, but of not the slightest import-
to be a matter in which no question of local ance to Tasmania, Victoria, or New South
interest could arise. But in a continent Wales.
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
677
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Surely admitted that there must be one house
the Government would do what was in which they are, practically, to have a
right!
very small representation; still they want
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: The Go- to maintain a fair representation in the
vernment would do what was right if they other house which would be adequate to
had not the ultimate power to do what was protect their interests. It was said very
wrong.
truly by the hon. member, Mr. Deakin,
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The Go- and the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, and
vernment would not have any interest in many other gentlemen representing the
doing what was wrong!
large populations, that in America the
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We all
Congress is never divided on the question
know that, in representative chambers, of state rights or state interests. But we
the view that ultimately prevails is in must be very careful how we choose our
accordance with the representation in that analogies.
chamber. If a district is fairly represented,
Mr. HIGGINS : That is hardly the state-
it gets justice ; if it is inadequately repre- ment I made. I said that there was no
sented, and can be disregarded, it very conflict of interests as between states as
often does not get justice. It would be the
states and the commonwealth !
same in the case of the senate, if its views
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: But poli-
could be set aside by a mass referendum.
tics in America are dominated by huge
Even the question of marriage and divorce
party machines which deal with legisla-
is of importance to all the colonies. At pre-
tion, and, to a great extent, with adminis-
sent, we have absolute autonomy in that
tration, and would never allow any in-
respect; we make our own laws. It would
justice to be done to any state. The
be an injustice to say that the laws of mar-
parties would never allow any coercion to
riage and divorce, which are to affect South
be applied to any state, or any of its rights
Australia, should be framed by any parlia-
to be interfered with, because, if they did,
ment in which that colony had not an ade-
they would lose their influence in states
quate representation. If there were power
on which the existence or predominance of
to set aside the wish of the senate, in which
their party depends. The hon. member,
we would have a fair representation, you
Mr. Deakin, says that we should have
would make us really a quantity which
need not be taken into account at all-you
party government in Australia. So we
should ; but nothing like to the same
would totally abolish our autonomy in these
extent as they have it in America.
matters; and I say autonomy is too dear
The Hon. A. DEAKIN:
à privilege to be lightly got rid of in this
way. We all of us now manage our own
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: It is a
affairs according to our own views. We
different thing In America, party go-
havea Federal Council, in which each colony
vernment depends to a great extent on the
is represented equally. Of course, I admit election of the president that takes place
that the Federal Council has not anything every four years, and in regard to which
like the power which this federation is to the parties strive with their utmost force.
have; but still, in connection with the
It is that which keeps parties together in
Federal Council, it was recognised that the
America ; but we should have nothing of
colonies were to have equal representation
that kind here.
in the one house which would represent The Hon. A. DEAKIN: There will be an
Australia. The smaller colonies have now election every three years, at least !
678
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT.,, 1897.1
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN; But there nor of anyone from Tasmania. I am only
would be no great parties watching each too glad to hail under any, circumstances
other with the keenest possible: eyes in those who are willing to vote for a referen-
order to see that no injustice: was, done to dum ; but I say that it shows how little
any of the states with the smaller popula- you can carry: the experience of parties
tion. I do not believe in taking a leaf out into new conditions if we may judge froma:
of the book of any country in creation what we see here, because we see so-called
The: Hon. A... DEAKIN: Look at your democratic measures advocated by so-called
own parties in South Australia,. and at conservatives. That shows that. original
the parties in Victoria !
party lines have no value here. I myself.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : They are have been regarded as a conservative for
altogether different from the parties, in voting for what I believed to be state
America.
rights.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It is quite suffi-
Mr. HIGGINS: The phrase "state rights."
cient for this purpose !
is used as a stalking horse by reaction-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN:The parties
aries !
in America have really lost sight of their
original intention. Goldwin Smith uses
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: State rights
words to the effect that:
or any other question is used here just as
The casks that contained the party' spirit no
it suits those who are arguing, and I was:
longer retain the odour of the liquor. with which much amused yesterday to hear some of
they were once filled..
those who were unwilling to give any more
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That does not
powers to the senate than they could help,
affect the issue here.?
because it might be ultra-conservative, ad-
The Hon. Dr. COOKBURN: I do not
mit that probably the senate would be the
think, that we should have party, govern- more liberal and democratic of the two
ment,,or party spirit, in this.commonwealth
houses. That shows how blurred our lines
as we understand it in our parliaments
of party government have become. I
DOW... How far are our present parties of would be not only willing, but glad, to
value: to us! Do: not. I find myself support my hon. and learned friend,, Mr..
voting here time after time with gentlemen Isaacs, in the matter of the double refer-
from the other colonies whom we recognise
endum. I think that the hon. and learned
as: ultra conservatives. Does not the hon. member, Mr. Wise, in spite of his magni-
member find himself voting time after time
ficent speech to-day, made a little mistake
with gentlemen whom he must recognize
when he said that in the past the referen-
as ultra conservatives..
dum had been used as a weapon: of per-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: No; they are all
sonal despotism.
liberals who vote with me!
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Do we
Mr. WISE: Napoleon III expressly jus:
tified it because it: was the only way to
not see that party lines are so blurred that
hon. members who are in principle opposed
escape from the bondage of parliamentary
to the referendum have actually supported
control!
it, because they think that their state would The Hon. Dr: COCKBURN: What has
lose nothing by having it.
not been used for personal ends and am:
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Does the hon. bitions? Butimas was pointed out, I think;
member call me an ultra conservative? by the Right Hon. Mr. Reid, last year,;
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No; I in the New South Wales Parliament, when
was not thinking of the hon, member, he moved the adoption of the referendum,
t
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
679:
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia. Bill.
in a speech that was second to none.ever erected to protect the rights we have at.
delivered on the subject--it does not alter present as autonomous states, and to see
the fact that in the old days the referen- that they are not endangered.
dum was the guardian of liberty, and that: Mr. HIGGINS: On one side the honi,
the greatest legislatures the world has ever member is a radical, and on the other side.
seen have been content to make all their a conservative!
proposals subject to the veto or the assent The Hon. Dr. COOKBURN: Of course,
of the people. Why, sir, the senate of we are allconservatives in a sense. We
Rome; the assembly of kings; as it has been have proved many things, and. we hold fast:
properly called, could only frame their to that which is good. But, in. the sense.
laws, could only decide upon what they the hon. member means, I have not acon:
wished their legislation to be, subject to: servative. bone in my body. The hon..
the veto of the people. When, after all member knows that quite well, and every-
their labours and after all: the wisdom body in this Convention. knows it too. My
they could bring to bear-and I do not struggles for the senate have simply been
suppose the world ever saw grander or more struggles for autonomy, for home rule, for
intelligent assemblies than the senates of local government; because I believe you
Greece and Rome—after all their combined will have no local government whateve:
wisdom had been brought to bear. on these if you neglect the state majorities. There:
questions, they then had to go with the is no sound autonomy in the world that.
proposal in their hand to the people and can be founded on the destruction of state,
say, "Do you, or do you not accept this majorities. The mass. referendum of my
law as one under which you desire to live??? hon. and learned friend is absolutely out.
Instead of the referendum having been of the question, not only from the point of
used to any great extent as the agent of view which I have endeavoured to touch:
despotism, it has really been the guardian upon—that it would render the senate in:
of the liberties of the past. I will support capable—but also because you cannot have
my hon. friend, Mr. Isaacs, in his proposal two referendumas, in this federation. You
for the double referendum. But I need cannot have two different forms of refer-
not say that I shall oppose with all. my endum. No one proposes that the refer-
power the mass referendum, because it: endum with regard: to. a change of the
strikes, at the existence of the senate, ren- constitution should be other than the
ders that body of no value whatever, and double referendum. We should endanger.
we might just as well start our federation the double referendum in regard to. a.
with one chamber, and have no more non- change of the constitution if we adopted
sense about it. I know it is the knowledge the principle of the mass. referendum in
of this that brings my hon. friend, Mr. deadlocks. It would be an inconsistency
Isaacs, and his right hon. chief, Sir George to have two forms of referendum in one
Turner, into this position. They see that commonwealth, and, sooner or: later, we
if we are going to have a mass referendum: should find, if the mass referendum. were
we might just as well have one house--and established for deadlocks, that there would
from many points of view. I should like to be an attempt to introduce the same prin-
see one house. I want to see no second ciple into the settlement of questions. re-
chamber erected to stand in the way of the lating to amendments of the constitution..
will of the people. I do not want to see And, logically, there would be no holding
any checks on what is called: the popular. back from that position. If we adopted
will. I simply want to see a chamber. the mass referendum now, we might just
680
Australia Biit.
Commonwealth of
[16 Sept., 1897.1
as well wipe out the referendum with this extent: that one branch of the Tas-
regard to a change of the constitution, manian legislature, and only one branch,
throw ourselves entirely into the hands of has made a suggestion qualified in this
the majorities of the large colonies, and
way :
say that autonomy in Australia is a thing This amendment is suggested by us in the
of the past, that we centralise and unify
event of the Convention deciding to make pro-
now and for ever. If we do that, we say
vision to avoid deadlocks, but not otherwise.
good-bye to democracy. We say good- The Tasmanian legislature, through its
bye to the will of the people, good-bye to
House of Assembly, has practically said,
what we know ás popular government, be-
“We do not regard any provision as neces-,
cause sooner or later a central authority is sary; but if you are going to have one,
bound to become a tyranny. No truer words
then let it be this one." And this one I
were ever uttered than those of Sir John should hope will receive some attention
Hall at the conference of 1890—“ Demo. from hon. members inasmuch as it provides
cracy demands that the government should for a system of internal referendum, a re-
be conducted within the sight and the hear- ferendum within the parliament itself, and
ing of the people.” The states are within one also which without putting the com-
the sight and hearing of the people. We monwealth to any very great expense,
must protect their privileges, otherwise we secures absolute finality. They say "If any
shall have the whole of Australia under solution for a deadlock be necessary.” One
one government, which, although it may cannot help marvelling how the necessity
be local to one state, will be infinitely for this solution, for some mechanical
distant to a great portion of the common- arrangement for meeting deadlocks, has
wealth_will be 2,000 miles away, and arisen suddenly after all these years, and
the voice of liberty will not carry that has assumed the prominence it has done.
distance.
In the bill of 1891 there was no pro-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Tbe referendum vision at all for dealing with deadlocks.
will protect their privileges !
At the meeting of the Convention held
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I would in Adelaide some suggestions were made
not depart from the principle of the refer- in this regard; but those suggestions were
endum. The principle of the referendum disposed of, and the bill passed without
in a federation is recognised. There is no any machinery to meet deadlocks. We
referendum in any federation I ever heard are now told that public opinion in this
of which is not a double referendum, and direction is gaining ground, and that ma-
I think it would be extremely dangerous chinery to meet deadlocks has become a
to depart in the slightest degree from that matter of paramount necessity. Looking
principle.
in the two local journals published in
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON Sydney, this morning, to find light on the
(Tasmania) [3.2]: I think it very desirable subject, I observed that while one paper
at the outset that I should correct a mis- advocates this machinery, the other paper
apprehension that has arisen as to the atti- is distinctly opposed to it, and points out
tude of Tasmania, and of the Tasmanian an objection to the referendum which I do
legislature, in regard to this matter. It not think has yet been noticed in the Con-
has been said in the Convention and out- vention--an objection of very serious im-
side that Tasmania is one of the four colo- · portance. It is that the referendum trans-
nies that have suggested provisions for fers the responsibility of the ministry from
meeting a deadlock. That is incorrect to the parliament to the people.
[The Fion. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
681
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
said :
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : Have not the the commonwealth must look for the best result
people to bear all the burden? Why, then,
of collective wisdom. Whatever methods you
should they not take what responsibility bring this result about : The party in the state
adopt for getting rid of deadlocks, you must
they like?
which feels its power in its hands will be anxious
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : to use it, and will at once use it for the purpose
I certainly do not want to take away from
of bringing about that deadlock, which will re-
sult in a solution in favour of the party that
the ministry of the day their responsi-
holds the power. There can be no question that
bility to the people through the parlia- if a strong party in the country hold a view in
ment.
When this question was raised in favour of a particular measure, and it is carried
Adelaide, it was disposed of upon argu-
by large majorities, they would very soon seek
ments which I think are almost unanswer-
to overcome the resistance of the senate by hay.
ing a dissolution--sending the bill up again, and
able, and I should like to read two very dissolving the senate. That brings me to one of
brief passages from speeches which seem the strongest objections to the proposal. I quite
to me absolutely convincing. The hon. and
assent to the proposition that when you have a
learned member, Mr. Barton, when this
house elected by the people-whether the house
of representatives or the senate-it should be
matter was under discussion at Adelaide,
brought into constant touch with the people. It
should, by a process of election, have its members
We know that it is in these matters of mixing renewed in such a way that it will not get out
up questions of taxation together instead of of touch, and you secure that quite enough by a
keeping them in one bill, and of tacking to an senate, half of which is renewable every three
appropriation act some extraneous subject of years. The ordinary life of the house of repre-
expenditure, for instance, that a bill is lost, and sentatives is three years, and you secure the ad-
when it is endeavoured to force it on a second mission of one-half new blood into the senate by
chamber, deadlocks arise. We know that dead- a process of triennial retirement of half its mem-
locks have arisen from these causes, and I sub- bers. That is quite enough to keep the senate
mit that the practical provision against dead- in touch with the people on all ordinary ques-
locks is that bills embodying these provisions tions. It is only in some sudden access of popu-
which have in the past been causes of deadlocks lar feeling on some particular question that the
should be breaches of this constitution, and senate is likely to be out of harmony with the
therefore may be declared inoperative by the general body of the people, and one of the
high court of Australasia. These matters have greatest safeguards we have in the senate is
all been provided for in this bill. There may be that it is not liable to be immediately dissolved.
new causes, but I put it that so far as we can In whose hands is the power of dissolution? It
ordinarily do, so far as experience guides us, is in the hands of a majority of the house of
this constitution has sufficiently provided against representatives—that is, in the hands of the
deadlocks, and looking at the ordinary range of government of the day; and if the amendment
human affairs no other provision is necessary. I of Mr. Wise is adopted, you are placing this
am not referring to those matters which may be very strong weapon in the hands of the govern-
settled on amendment, message, or conference, ment of the day, to coerce the senate to take
These subjects will be open as in the past, but any view they may think fit. Can anyone doubt
in these three provisions carefully made for pre-
that is coercion ?
venting the origination of deadlocks we have
An Hon. MEMBER: From whose speech
provided sufficiently, and may rest with them,
whether we are asked to adopt the referendum
is the right hon. gentleman quoting?
or the Norwegian system, or any other.
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: I
I should like to read a passage from the do not wish to mention the hon. member's
speech of another distinguished member of name, because I do not think that the
the Convention :
opinions which he expressed then are quite
I say now that to place a weapon of this kind the opinions which he holds now.
for the ending of deadlocks in the hands of
The Hon. E. BARTON : The right hon.
either house, or any authority in the state,
would be to stifle that free discussion on ques-
member is looking at me. He is perfectly
tions of difference in which alone the people of at liberty to quote anything that I said
682
Australia Bill.
Corimonwealth of
[16: SEPT.,. 1897..]
at Adelaide, because I have not: departed. lower house there should be a dual refer-
from the opinions which I expressed during endum, I do not see that it is possible for
our sittings there!
us, having regard to our duty, to safe-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :I guard the senate, and to preserve to it
mentioned the hon. and learned member's such limited powers as have been left to
name in connection with the passage from it, to go.one. whit further. If we did that,
his speech which I quoted. In discussing, it would be, I should say, by way of com-
this matter, I have not only to explain the promise, and a very large compromise
action of the Tasmanian, legislature; buti indeed.
also my own position, because I am a very Mr.. HIGGINS (Victoria) [3:14]: I had
strong advocate for the dissolution of the not meant to speak in this general debate;
legislative councils of our colonial parlia because I intended to confine my remarks
ments and also of the referendum. I am to the specific proposals which, I under-
an advocate of the referendum where it stand, will be brought forward for the
can be applied safely—and it can. only prevention of deadlocks; but, having, re-
have a restricted application and for: the: gard to the course which the debate has
dissolution of the second chambers in the taken, I think I should avoid misunder-
colonial parliaments. But I recognise: to standing better by speaking now, when, as
the fullest extent that which I do not it seems to me, we are approaching nearer
think is always recognised : that the senate and nearer to the dilemma which I feared
of the federal legislature will occupy a
from the very start of our deliberations in
position entirely different from that occu- Adelaide.
Adelaide. The dilemma appears to be-
pied by the legislative councils in the colo- although it is not, I am happy to say,
nial parliaments. I feel that very strongly, quite expressed yet; and I hope it will
and I think that it is our bounden duty to: never be a real and final dilemma—that
respect the continuity of the existenceof the the larger states will say, 66 We cannot
senate to the fullest extent, and to carry out federate unless you leave the sovereignty
the suggestion made in the last paragraph —at any rate, in the final result in the
which. I read. It is suggested that some. mass of the people.” The smaller states
of the subjects which are to be referred to will
say,
66. We cannot federate if you do
the federal parliament should be so separ- put the sovereignty in the final result in
ated that there could be no difficulty in the people as a whole.” I feel, when we
discriminating between those, which might. approach a dilemma of that sort, that we
involve interference with state' rights and should use language of the greatest modera-
those which involved other matters. I tion. It is a stage at which the greatest
agree, however, with the hon. and learned self-restraint is necessary, if we are to bring:
member, Mr. Isaacs, and other hon. mem- out any good result from our deliberations.
bers, that it would be absolutely impos- I. have heard with great regret the strong
sible to make this discrimination. You language which the right hon. the Pre-
cannot see at what point there will be mier of South Australia and the hon.
a divergence from a national question, members, Mr. Symon and Mr. Howe; ad-
which will make the matter a provincial dressed to the Convention yesterday. The
one-one of state concern; and, therefore, Right Hon. C. C. Kingston said that he
jeopardising state interests and state would stump the country against federa-
rights. While, as a friend of the referen- tion unless a certain proposal of his were
dum, I should be disposed to accept the carried. Then. the hon. member, Mr.
proposition that after a dissolution of the Symon, spoke as if he were going to lead.
[The Right Hon. Sir E. Braddon.
Commonwealth of
683
[16 SEPT:,189.7.1
Australia Bill.
an army with a free and flashing sword statesmanlike speech of the hon. member,
against the larger states if there were any Mr. McMillan, who I thought before, took
infringement of what he considered to be a different view. It is quite true that
the rights of the smaller states. As for there is an inconsistency between the ex-
the hon. member, Mr. Howe, his. frenzy treme state rights view of the consent of.
went beyond all limits. I feel as strongly the states being necessary, and the view
as they do on my side of the question, but taken by the hon.. members, Mr. Holder.
I hope. I shall be able to speak with and Mr. McMillan. If there is one thing
moderation, and without indicating that that has been drummed into my ears con-
I shall regard any particular clause or tinually, ad nauseanz. almost, it is that I
any particular condition as essential to
must not be logical. Surely if that is a
federation. I have; carefully abstained good lesson for me. to learn, it is also a
from that. I think honi, members know good. lesson for others to learn. All
very well how strongly I feel on. certain. I want is that if I am the goose for
subjects, but I will abstain from that to
whom the sauce. is provided, it shall also
the end. I say 'we have no right, seeing be applied to the gander. If it is incon-
the endless complexity of the provisions sistent, if it is illogical, to give equal
which may be suggested for this consti- representation on the one hand, and to
tution, to lay down any condition, as final; infringe on the principle with the other
or to use what are called “carpet-bagging? hand, still there is a vid media which
threats-threats of taking up one's carpete any reasonable man. can see, and which
bag and going away. Approaching the may, and will, justify hon. members who
question in that way, I was greatly im- have taken that vid:media. Is it.not con:
pressed by the speech of the hon. mem- sistent for those who still. are haunted
ber, Mr. Holder; yesterday. I felt that it by what I regard as the fallacy as to the
was the most hopeful half-hour for federa- consent of the states to say,
" It is true we
tion that I had yet seen. The.hon. member; must give the states the right to protect
Mr. Holder, is a minister in one of the less themselves, to delay measures and obstruct
populous colonies; he is responsible to a measures which they think are unjust, until
constituency in that colony; he has held it comes to the last resort. But in the last
office for three, or four years; and he: resort, in place of the physical force which
knows the way in which his utterances Mr. Wise puts as an alternative, let us
and votes will be canvassed.
have the peaceful operation of an appeal
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: He will be to the people as a whole." I regard the
very much surprised to find the way in referendum as merely a peaceful mode of
which they will be canvassed !
effecting the solution to which the hon.
Mr. HIGGINS: I have no doubt what member; Mr. Wise, invites us.
ever that the hon. member, Mr. Holder, the majority of the people have the phy-
gauges public opinion in South Australia sical force, and can do what they like..
as correctly as the hon. member.
That is quite true, but
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER :I accept the Mr: WISE.: I would like to point out
full responsibility of it!
that I said the majority could never be
Mr. HIGGINS: As I have said, that coerced; because they had the physical
half-hour was the most hopeful for federa force. That is very different from saying
tion that I have yet seen.
There is. no
they could do what they liked.
doubt whatever that that is the case. Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. member
That speech was aided by the masterly. and said that when we came to a question of
He says
684
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
coercion the majority could not be coerced, nership. A great deal has been said to
because they have physical force. It is the effect that we must provide for dead-
perfectly clear that by vetoing a measure
locks. I think that phrase hardly expresses
which the majority want, you coerce the
the idea. It is not deadlocks that you must
majority. I say, therefore, that those who provide for; but what you must provide
can put a permanent veto upon legislation for is that the wishes of the people, the ma-
enact, in effect, that the existing state of tured wishes of the people, after a full dis-
things shall continue.
cussion, shall not be permanently thwarted.
Mr. WISE : The hon, member has not The thwarting of the will of the people is
understood my argument !
not always productive of a deadlock, and
Mr. HIGGINS: I am very sorry, but I therefore a good many of the arguments to
hope I will understand the argument here- show that there is no danger of a deadlock
after when I read the report of the debate. do not affect me in the slightest degree. It
I understand the hon. member says that ow- is quite true, however, as has been said, that
ing to the physical force which the majority the differences between the two houses will
have, the majority cannot be coerced. I say not in any considerable number of cases
that in place of having coercion rendered be differences as affecting state interests.
inoperative by physical force, let us have I take it that, although one is a state's
the coercion rendered inoperative by the house, and the other is a people's house,
peaceful solution of a vote by the people. the differences will be on the ordinary
I think there was a good deal in the dis- lines, which we are familiar with in these
tinction drawn by the hon. member, Mr. colonies—on the ordinary lines with re-
Holder, a distinction which in my addresses gard to protection or free-trade, liberalism
to my constituents I referred, between an or conservatism, and so forth. I quite
alteration of the constitution and the alter- agree also to this, that there is much danger
ation of a law which is under the consti- of a conflict, I do not say a deadlock, be-
tution. He says you ought, at all events, tween the two houses having regard to the
to render absolutely essential the consent circumstances under which the two houses
of the states to an alteration in the consti- are elected. Both houses being elected on a
tution to which they have agreed. I per- very liberal franchise, each will feel itself
fectly concede that. If men enter into a stronger, and be more apt to resist the wish
deed of partnership, they ought not to have of the other, and there will be a tendency,
put upon them another deed of partnership no doubt, in the senate, as it feels itself
to which they have not consented. But in to be a states house under the equal re-
matters within the scope of the deed of presentation clause, to look more to the
partnership, it is only right the majority interests of the states as against the com-
should rule. That distinction ought to be monwealth. It will be a house that tends
emphasised. Strong as my view is with to provincialism, to all that is selfish, to
regard to the rights of the majority of the all that is provincial, for in the early days
people, I say, certainly, that if the states, of the United States they acted on the
and the people of the states, are coming principle that a senator was bound to act
into a deed of partnership, that deed of in the interests of his state, was an ambas-
partnership—the constitution-ought not sador of the state, without regard to the
to be altered without at least the consent interests of the commonwealth. Several
of a majority of the states. It is a very proposals have been made, not only for
different thing when you are dealing with settling deadlocks, but for giving effect
a measure which is under the deed of part- to the will of the people, even when there
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
685
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
is no deadlock. The first proposal is that strongly entrenched, would be resting
for a double dissolution. I have to remind against the rock of a six years' tenure
hon. members that in Adelaide I proposed a without any liability to dissolution, and it
double dissolution; I tabled an amendment is not difficult to see what the result of
for that purpose, and the hon. and learned a tug of war of that sort would be. If
member, Mr. Barton, asked me to postpone you have one house with a liability to dis-
the clause so that it might be recommitted, solution in the case of a difference, and the
but meantime my hon. and learned friend, other house with no liability to dissolu-
Mr. Wise, had brought forward an amend- tion in the case of a difference, but with
ment which provided for a dissolution of a six-years' tenure, and with perhaps half
the senate after the dissolution of the house of the members having still a five or six
of representatives, if that house should still years' tenure to look forward to before
persist in its opposition. I was beaten on they must go before the electors, there is
that amendment; I had only seven votes, no doubt that the power would ultimately
including my own. If I may judge from tend to fall into the hands of the senate.
appearances, there will be very many more For that reason, and for others, I am
votes given in favour of a double dissolu- strongly in favour of it, but I hold that a
tion this time. Even my hon. and learned dissolution is by no means a solution of the
friend, Mr. Wise, voted against it.
difficulty. First it brings into play a num-
Mr. WISE : I will vote for it this time! ber of by-issues as to persons and as to
The Hon. E. BARTON : So will I; I will other matters. A man is often returned to
go that far!
Parliament on this consideration, “Oh, he
Mr. HIGGINS : A double dissolution I is a good fellow on the whole, and although
cordially support. I think it will go a very he differs from us on this point, we will
long way towards rectifying some of the send him in generally." Besides that, as
evils which will arise from this complicated a dissolution will send the senate to the
system of a state's house and a people's colonies, you may have each colony backing
house. I take it to be, as the hon. mem- up its senators and just leaving things as
ber, Mr. McMillan, said, unfair to let one they were before. But, still, I do recog-
house have a means of scourging the other, nise that the mere fact of a possible disso
and that is the means which the senate lution impending over the head of the
will have unless we give power to have senate, will make them chary to some ex-
it dissolved also, because the senate can tent in withstanding the strongly expressed
apply the scourge to the other by saying, wish of the house of representatives and the
"If you press this legislation you must go to country. Now, I will approach the next
the country." The answer under the pro- matter. It is said then, after a dissolution
posed solution will be, “Well, if you oppose
of both houses let us have a referendum.
the legislation we will both go to the coun- In the Legislative Assembly of Victoria,
try, and see if the country sustains us." I was one of the joint authors of a bill for
I take it that unless there be a provision a referendum. I need hardly say that I
for a double dissolution the house of repre- am strongly in favour of the principle.
sentatives will be treated grossly unfairly. I am not frightened by that cant about
It is just as if you had two lots of men, mechanical contrivances. I am not fright-
with a rope between them, having a tug of ened by that cant with regard to its en-
war, and you allowed one lot to have firmly abling members to shirk their responsi-
embedded rocks against which to rest their bility. Every governmental contrivance,
feet. In this case the senate would be even electing a parliament of any sort,
-68:6
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
allowing the issue to go by votes in the a referendum than have it go before the
parliament, is a "mechanical contrivance," people with a falsehood upon its face.
one of those cant phrases we have heard May I indicate how the figures will work
used by ministers this morning. As to the out? Supposing we got two states strongly
shirking of responsibility, there is nothing in favour of a measure, and the other
in that idea. You cannot have a refer- states pretty evenly balanced, but still
endum unless there has been a vote in par- · against the measure upon the total voting.
liament on the subject, and as all reason- Here is a sample of how it might work.
able referendums are proposed, you must Suppose New South Wales had 110,000
have a vote first in one session and then for and 10,000 against ; Victoria had
in another session aftera sufficient interval, 100,000 for and 10,000 against.; South
and the thing will be fully discussed in the Australia, 14,000 for and 15,000 against ;
press, and members will have taken sides. Tasmania, 6,000 for and 7,000 against, and
Although I am strongly in favour of a refe- Western Australia, 6,000 for and 7,000
rendum, I shall certainly., without the least against. "The result would be that you
hesitation, vote against the referendum would have 236,000 votes for the measure
which is called the double referendum. and 49,000 votes against. But that mea-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Hear, sure could not be carried, although the
liear!
voting was in the proportion of about five to
Mr. HIGGINS: I have the applause one. Not only that, but, supposing in South
of the Premier of Tasmania. I am very Australia there was a small reversal of the
happy to find myself in his company. I position, and supposing the figures there
do not care who votes for it or who votes
were 15,000 for and 14,000 against. In
against it, I am not going to vote for a that case you would have 237,000 for and
thing called “the referendum,” which I 48,000 against. Even then, according to
know will be a sham, which I see to be a the proposal of the treble referendum-I
fraud, a delusion, and a snare; a thing might call it a demi-referendum-you
which is not the referendum but which would not have it carried, because you
will have the effect of a device to lead would have, perhaps, seventy-six electoral
people to think that they are protected by districts, and it might turn out that only
a referendum when they are not protected. thirty-seven went for the measure and
I do not expect in this matter to elicit any thirty-nine against it.
marks of approval from any side of the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is not
Chamber, and I do not court them. But, at my proposal !
the sarne time, I feel at liberty to say that Mr. HIGGINS: I remember that, in
I will not be a party to any proposal which the Victorian House, my hon. friend inti-
you may dub a referendum, but which will mated that he cordially agreed with the
not have the effect of a referendum. I amendment. It was proposed by Mr.
voted in Adelaide in favour of the referen- Baker, and the hon. member at once said
dum to the states and to the people simply very frankly that he agreed with it, and
because I saw that there was no move- that it would get over some difficulties.
ment towards a conciliatory method, and An HON. MEMBER: Our Chamber ob-
that this thing would not be carried, and jected to even the dual referendum !
also that we had not full time to go into the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Some wanted
details of it. But I certainly would much a national referendum !
rather see this constitution go before the Mr. HIGGINS: I think it will save
people without anything of the nature of some time if I proceed upon the assump-
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
6:87
[16 SEPT., 1897.7
Australia Bill.
tion that this idea of the electoral districts vention back to a consideration of the sub-
is abandoned. Is it abandoned or is it not? jects to begiven to this proposed parliament.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It is He has shown what the subjects are, and
So as far as I am concerned !
although the practical outcome is very hard
Mr.HIGGINS: It has come down again to ascertain, I must say that the position
to a dual referendum, and we might very he has taken up is perfectly correct. He
possibly have voting throughout the com- says, “ If there is any subject in clause 52
monwealth, in which there would be which ought not to be given to the federal
236,000 votes for and 49,000 votes against, parliament let us know what it is, and take
and still the measure would not be carried. it out, and do not let a majority in the
What is the alternative? The hon. :mem- commonwealth rule about it.” Unfortu-
ber, Mr. Wise, says physical force. I do nately, I think the Premier of New South
not want physical force. I want the will Wales qualified that position. He has
of the people to ultimately rule on all Aus- simply informed us that we could have a
tralian subjects. There is one mode of referendum on all national subjects and
solution which was suggested on a former not upon state subjects, and he has left
occasion, and I am surprised there has not it to us to find out what are state and
been more said about it in this meeting of what are national subjects. Why, that is .
the Convention. I refer to the idea of :a the whole difficulty of the problem. How
joint sitting of the two houses. Of course, are we, in clause 52, to find what are state
it will be obvious that that will cause far and what are national subjects ? I say
less expense; but, so far as I am concerned, that it is quite possible to limit clause 52
I am strongly against a joint sitting of the so as to show that there are certain sub-
two houses, if those two houses are not "jects in that clause which might, even
equally representative of the people. If from the point of view of the smaller
my proposal for proportional representa states, be left to the referendum in the
tion had been carried, and if we had two final resort. For instance, marriage and
houses upon the same basis, there would divorce. What obstruction in the world
be a strong ground for saying, "If those should there be to a national referendum
two houses representing the people cannot
in that case?
agree, put them together, and see which has The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Can the hon.
themost votes.” Unfortunately, tomymind member perceive any necessity for a refer-
weare not putting the senate upon the same endum on that matter?
strong basis as we are putting the house The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : That would
of representatives. We are not giving them be very hard on me and Sir William Zeal!
the same strength of character, because Mr.HIGGINS: I can perceive this: that
we say the senate will represent in the it is one of the most difficult social ques-
main, and must represent, a minority of tions.of the present day. Why should Mr.
the people. I feel that there is a great deal Peacock object to having such a matter re-
to be said for that proposal. Still I con- ferred to the people of the whole of Aus-
fess I would much rather see something of tralia ? In what way does the hon. member
that kind than see this sham referendum suppose that his interests would be preju-
to which I have referred. I am very glad dicially affected? Would he not be pre-
also to find that the Premier of New South pared, as a Benedict of the future, to trust
Wales has dragged the Convention back to to the people of the whole of Australia? I
what is really not sufficiently attended to in think the right hon. member, Mr. Reid, has
this discussion. He has dragged the Con- this morning put me in the position of the
688
Australia Bill.
Cormonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.) ]
junior counsel to the senior counsel. The differ from me are acting with a view to
senior counsel opened the case to the the best interests of the commonwealth
jury splendidly. He told them a magni- quite as much as I am. They are, I am
ficent story and their passions were tho- sure, quite as much interested in its good
roughly aroused. Their feeling as to the as I am, and whether they call me pro-
case was very intense. The junior counsel, vincial or whether they call me anti-fed-
having his brief, listened with breathless erationist, I claim from them the recog-
attention to the splendid opening, and nition that I am equally desirous with any.
when it was over, noticing his senior leav- one in Australia for the union of these
ing the court, he pulled his gown and said, peoples under a workable constitution.
"How am I to prove that case which you Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
opened?” The senior was there to put the [3.49]: It is with considerable diffidence
case before the jury, and the junior was there that I rise to say a few words on the pre-
to prove it. Now my right hon. friend, sent occasion; but in this matter I am in
Mr. Reid, told us in very eloquent words, the unfortunate position, as far as I can
“ The whole difficulty is solved; you have see, of being alone among the delegation
only to distinguish between state rights from the colony I have the honor to repre-
and national rights." But my senior coun- sent. It seems to me that we are not con-
sel does not help me very much when he fined to the referendum in the settlement
says that. Who is to make the distinction of disputes between the two houses, and I
between national rights and state rights ? was very glad to hear my hon. and learned
But although we had not the assistance of friend, Mr. Higgins, say that he would like
the hon. gentleman's acute mind in distin- to hear the Norwegian system discussed, or
guishing national from state subjects in some application or modification of that
clause 52, still he indicated in his mas- system. Although we might not have a full
terly speech the direction in which we can meeting together of the two houses we
go if we take sufficient pains, and if we might have a certain representation from
pursue the subject with the same diligence each house meeting together. Supposing,
with which the special Finance Committee for instance, you have thrce-fourths of the
has been pursuing its labours during the senate, If there are six colonies there
last few days. I take it that it is quite
would be 36 members in the senate, and
possible for us to arrive at a compromise three-fourths would be 27. I would also
upon this 52nd clause--that it is quite have the house of representatives elect 27
possible for us to say, “Here are certain of its members, making 54 members from
subjects, and as to those there can be no
both houses. Let these representatives
referendum.” It may be possible also to meet together and discuss the subject in
insert some qualifications with reference dispute. There surely must be some means
to one or two other subjects; and, as I do of effecting a settlement in the case of dif-
not wish to commit myself to any particu- ferences between the two houses. It afforded
lar position, I merely want to indicate me great pleasure to hear my right hon
the direction in which, perhaps, there friend, Sir George Turner, speak in the
may be some solution acceptable to us admirable manner in which he did last
with our divers modes of looking at the night. The right hon. gentleman spoke in a
matter. I recognise that, although to my most conciliatory and satisfactory manner
mind the fallacy of the scheme which to the representatives of the less populous
has been put before us is as apparent as
states. He alluded to several of the safety-
the sun at noonday, my hon. friends who valves which already exist for the adjust-
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
689
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
7
ment of differences which may arise be- An Hon. MEMBER : The hon. member
tween the two houses. My hon. and learned just said it was so difficult to amend the
friend, Mr. Barton, also referred to the same constitution !
phase of the matter. It seems to me that Mr. WALKER: I should think a clause
as one half of the senate retires every three might be devised which would make it not
years, there is an opportunity by that very difficult to do so in certain circum-
means of effecting a settlement of differ- stances. I think that if you are to hare
ences between the houses. There is in that a safety-valve which is not at present in
provision what may be called a natural the bill it might take the form of a dissolu-
safety-valve. Upon this subject of safety- tion of both chambers.
tion of both chambers. I think that, as
valves; I would take the liberty of reading the house of representatives has to be dis-
a short extract from an excellent work in solved under certain circumstances, "what
the hands of many members of this Con- is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for
vention. I refer to Mr. Garran's work on the gander," and that under certain circum-
“The Coming Commonwealth.” He says: stances thesenate also ought to be dissolved.
It must be remembered, too, that equal re- That is a wholly different thing from the
presentation in one chamber is balanced by pro- referendum; in the way of which there are
portional representation in the other. It is in
difficulties. The double referendum seems
no sense true that the few have equal power
with the many. The simple truth is that all
to me to involve exactly the same difficul-
federal legislation needs the consent of a ma- ties. I am surprised that our friends from
jority of the people and also a majority of the Tasmania have not on this point taken
states. A majority in the senate may conceiv-
up their own suggestion. It seems to me
ably represent a minority of citizens, but such
that, after a dissolution of both houses, we
a majority can never compel legislation--it can
only prevent legislation ; and the legislation might avail ourselves of the amendment
which it is likely to prevent is precisely that suggested by the Legislative Assembly of
which in federation ought to be prevented, legis- Tasmania. We only require to make this
lation, that is to say, which is offensive to the
majority of the states.
provision applicable after a dissolution,
Fears of a deadlock
may, of course, „be conjured up, but deadlocks
not before it. Suppose that a bill has
exist rather in theory than in practice. The
passed the house of representatives, and
possibility of deadlock is inherent in every con- has been rejected by the senate in the
stitutional government under the sun. The
same session, then would come in, I think,
safety is found in the reasonable spirit of those
this admirable provision suggested by the
who work the constitution.
He also remarks with regard to the use of
Legislative Assembly of Tasmania. I am
surprised that no one has referred to it
the referendum as a cure for deadlocks :
more in detail. I should like the hon.
This use of the referendum as an arbiter be-
tween the chambers is altogether new. We have
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, to note
not yet adopted it in provincial politics, and a
this point, as he is always very clear in
federal constitution which is notoriously hard to
what he says. The provision is suggested
alter is not the place for experiments. The re- by the Legislative Assembly of Tasmania
ferendum cure for deadlocks promises well, but for use only in the event of the Conven-
it ought to be tried on a provincial scale before
it is deemed wortlıy to rank as a federal institu-
tion making provision for the settlement
tion. No one can foretell how a new political
of deadlocks, not otherwise, ; and it seems
invention will work ; and, though experiments
to me that the provision could be carried
must be made, they should not be made, in the into effect after the two houses have been
first instance, on too large a scale.
dissolved. It practically means that if a
It occurs to me that you have always the bill is passed by the lower house, by a
amendment of the constitution as a safety- four-sevenths majority, and gets a three-
valve.
sevenths support of the upper house
3 B
690
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
]
[16 SEPT., 1897.
part if
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Three-sevenths,
consisting of a majority of senators in a
majority of states !
Mr. WALKER: Well, strike out that
you like. I do not object to that
being done, though I think the smaller
colonies might. It seems to me that that
is one means of settling a deadlock. I
should like to know if any hon. gentleman
can inform me whether there is a consti-
tution in which a settlement of deadlocks
is provided for?
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That
argument will stand against all reform!
Mr. WALKER: I will read a few ex-
tracts from an address delivered by a gen-
tleman who is highly respected and honored
by all of us the hon. member, Mr.
McMillan-in which he refers to this very
important matter of the referendum. He
says:
What is a bi-cameral government? A bi-
cameral government, after all, is an artificial
system not to prove the sovereignty of the people,
but to obtain the best results. Government is
a practical thing. Legislation is a practical
thing. You would not go and take the first 125
men of 21 years of age, electors of this country,
out of the streets at random, and say, because
they are of age and are electors of this country,
they are fit to sit here and make the laws for the
people of the country. The great bulk of the
people in this country know nothing about
tegislation.
The hon. gentleman also says:
I want, in a practical way, to point out to
hon. members some of the dangers of this bill,
and the danger of introducing a purely artificial
mode of procedure, instead of the higher, better,
and nobler system of compromise and concession.
istic of our people ?-their nomadic habits. I
understand that between 40,000 and 50,000 people
who voted in the election of 1894 were disfran-
chised in the election of 1895 because they had
changed their residence. Wherever there is a gold
fever in another colony a great number of our
people are drawn there. We are a community
of change, as are most communities of Britishers
who have left their own homes. Suppose a mea-
sure is sent to the people at some time when
there is no general election in progress, will
those who live in sparsely populated districts
take the trouble to record their votes? I say
that they will not, and the result will be to give
a very unfair monopoly in regard to the refer-
endum to the people residing within the metro-
politan areas. It may be agreed that measures
should only be sent to the people at the time of
a general election ; but I am perfectly convinced
that if it comes to a deadlock between the two
houses, unless some other expedient than this is
proposed, the expedient which is now ready at
hand of waiting for a general election, and then
reintroducing the bill is far more sensible, more
largely based upon our own experience, and more
likely to bring about moderate and useful legis-
lation,
With regard to the referendum, it appears
to me that it is very much like referring
from the more intelligent to the less intel-
ligent. I do not wish to disparage the
average elector, but, as a matter of fact,
the electors are supposed to choose the
more intelligent men to represent them in
parliament.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Are they not
supposed to express their views on a par-
ticular question, too?
Mr. WALKER : But the members'
views and theirs will be in consonance to
a certain extent I suppose.
It seems to
me that this system of referendum, if car-
ried out in its entirety, would reduce re-
presentatives to the position of mere dele-
gates, to voice the views of those people
who send them into parliament.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They have to
give pledges at the present time !
Mr. WALKER: It seems to me that
on some people the mention of the word
"referendum " has the same effect as that
fine old word " Mesopotamia” had on the
I ask hon, members to look at the condition of
this country. Let us contrast it for a moment
with the home of the referendum.
Where is the home of the referendum ?
Switzerland, I suppose.
In Switzerland, as in inost Continental coun.
tries, you have communities who have grown up
froin generation to generation. They can trace
their ancestors back forhundreds of years. There
is little comparative movement in such commun-
ities. But what is the distinguishing character-
[Mr Walker
Commonwealth of
691
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
Scotch lady who came home from church, again we shall have more information, and
and was asked what she had heard. She will no doubt be able to vote upon it. I
said that she had heard "that blessed voted against the referendum at Adelaide.
word, Mesopotamia." It seems to me that It seems to me that a great deal may be
with some people if anything is called said in favour of a double dissolution, but
“referendum” that is all they want. We for anything beyond that I do not see any
have no guarantee that there is any great absolute necessity. At the same time, I
cry
for a referendum. I have not heard of reserve to myself the full right to vote as
any petitions to this Convention in favour I think proper when the time comes, and
of it. We have had petitions on another if. I find that it is necessary to give a
matter both in this Convention and at vote to prevent three colonies from leaving
Adelaide. The petitions at Adelaide did us, I will certainly vote in that way.
not seem to have much effect, and perhaps On the other hand, if hon. members will
that has discouraged the people who want be content to take the dual referendum, I
the referendum. I can only say that they
I can only say that they do not see any great harm in it. It seems to
do not show as much desire to obtain me it is very much like the same thing over
it, as hon. members seem to think they again. Both houses will virtually go before
have.
their constituents, and will come back
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Three parlia- again. I think that with reasonable cour-
ments have asked for it!
tesy to one another any difficulties that
Mr. HIGGINS: Not this referendum !
might arise ought to be settled without any
of those artificial and mechanical means.
Mr. WALKER: Several gentlemen,
If I understand the spirit of British par-
after the result of the Convention election
liamentary life, the principle has always
in this colony, told me that the referendum
been not to send particular questions to
had not somehow or other resulted as was
the country; but to send parliament itself,
anticipated by some, and that therefore the
and when the members come back they
desire for the referendum was considerably
have the latest views of their constituents.
moderated. I think that if a whole colony
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [4:5] :
is treated as one constituency, you ought,
At this late stage of the debate for any one
if possible, to have a representation of
to get up and attempt to say anything new
minorities. In the United Kingdom there
on the subject would be to fall into the error
is not equal representation on a population
of the ladies in the " Vicar of Wakefield,"
basis. I remember, not many years ago,
who "simply continued the conversation,
when Ireland had 105 members and Scot-
but not the argument." However, the mat-
land only 53 ; but matters went on peace-
ter is an important one, and I will endea-
ably enough in those days. It was before
vour, in the few moments that I sball oc-
Home Rule.
cupy, to state my opposition to the refer-
Mr. GLYNN : They have not got Home endum as a general policy or from the point
Rule yet!
of view of consolidation, and at the same
Mr. WALKER: I mean before the time to say that, for the purpose of fur-
Home Rule cry. I hope that there will be thering the federal question, I am prepared
an adjournment of this Convention to allow to subordinate my personal convictions
Queensland to come in, and also to let our against the referendum as a policy, and
Victorian friends have sufficient time to thus, following the example of so many
consider the financial and other questions, other inembers of this Convention, display,
and when this question comes before us perhaps, some federal spirit.
692
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. HIGGINS: Would the hon. gentle- imperilled by the encroachments of the
man say that the double referendum is other states—we shall do no good. I do
perfectly harmless?
not share any fear of that kind. I will go
Mr. GLYNN: I would not say that.
the length of saying that if federation were
Sometimes it may be productive of a con-
carried with a referendum which amounted
siderable amount of good ; but a referen-
to a mass referendum, the good sense of
dum in some respects will do harm, as I
the people would, on the whole, make the
shall endeavour to show. I do not share constitution work properly. At the same
the fears which have been emphatically time, we are dealing with men with strong
expressed by some representatives of the
and national prejudices. We are dealing
smaller colonies, that if we went so far as
with states that hare been agitated by pro-
some of the representatives of the larger posals, even during the last few years, in
colonies would go, and adopted a mass re-
reference to this very question of the refer-
ferendum, we should be striking at and in
endum, that necessitate our taking into
practice destroy the very essential character
account the very strong prejudices that
of the upper house by making it a unified exist. It was said in an exceedingly able
rather than a federal one; in fact, would
and eloquent speech by myright hon.friend,
be giving the principle of equal represen-
Mr. Reid, this morning-and it shows the
tation on the one hand, and destroying its
effect which a speech of eloquence and
efficacy on the other. I do not share that ability may sometimes have in diverting
fear in its intensity, and I may state at the
attention from the true issue before us-
outset one of the reasons why I do not. The that unless you adopt this mass referendum,
combinations that are possible on any state
at the very outset of your federation you
question are not combinations of states. may find yourself in a deadlock-you may
You will not find on the one side a combi- be financially blocked. We are told, for
nation of the large states against the small instance, that possibly within the two years
states. When a state question arises, the
during which the tariff is to be passed-
chances are that you may find one state
and upon that point I agree with the sense
largely interested in it, a small state, and of the interjection by the hon. and learned
perbaps the opinions of the representatives member, Mr. Isaacs, that the word "shall”
of the small state will be shared by the re-
may not be restrictive to the two years ;
presentatives of the large states. So that because you have to read the whole text
I fail to see that any state question can
of the constitution to understand what it
arise that is likely to differentiate the means we were told, I say, by the Right
states as large and small in the federation. Hon. Mr. Reid, that unless you make pro-
If that is so, the power of the larger states
vision at once for deadlocks, you may find
will not be used so as to destroy the so- that your constitution will exist without
called liberties of the smaller ones.
the power on your part to accomplish the
this because I am afraid that, by leaning very first purpose for which it has been
too much on these generalities, we shall passed—a uniform tariff. The plain answer
imperil the success of the constitution. If to that is this : We are not going to create a
we feed the people with prejudices on this a piece of political machinery in order to
point, tell them that if one particular form' get over a difficulty that can be wiped off
of settling possible constitutional difficul- at once by a stroke of the pen. If you want
ties in the parliament is not adopted, or to get rid of the possibility of the tariff not
another form is not adopted, the chances being passed, the true solution is not to
are that some of their 'iberties will be create a remedy against deadlocks but to
I say
[11r. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
693
(16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
strike out the provision that the tariff must have an opinion before they should
must be passed within two years. Again, be asked to express it. The people must
the hon, and learned member made a very be in a position to form an opinion upon
ad captandum appeal to the passions rather the details of a particular act of parliament
than to the reason of his audience by before it becomes expedient to refer that
pointing out the enormous advance which act of parliament to them for their yea or
has been made in the expression of the nay. Look through the whole of the thirty-
popular voice in the last sixty-five years. seren matters for federal legislation. Sup-
I quite agree with him that the prog- pose the tariff turns up, and suppose there
nostications made in 1831, that if re. is a deadlock upon that point. You would
form was granted the pillars of the consti- hare on the one side protectionists arguing
tution would be broken down, have been the facts, giving statistics and analogies
falsified utterly by the event. We all drawn from history, and indulging in
agree with him also that the voice of the sweeping generalisations as to the evils of
people must prevail. But what we do not free-trade; and you would bave on the
agree with the hon. gentleman in is this : other side gentlemen equally emphatic in
that you can always get the educated or pointing out the evils of protection, each
efficacious opinion of the people by a re- party claiming to be specialists as to the
ferandum. It is one thing to say that the method of accomplishing social reform.
will of the people must prevail; but it is We refer this contested question to people
another thing to say that you can get a
who have not had time to study the sub-
body of people who are not experts to point ject, and we ask them upon an abstract
out the true lines of social development. matter of politics and the details of an act
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
of parliament to say what ought to be done.
Mr. GLYNN : Undoubtedly they are. The people have adopted the wiser method
Why do we have parliamentary institu- of choosing men who can pay attention to
tions at all? Men in the ordinary course the work, and become experts to settle
of life have not 'time to study political these questions, and we ought not to cast
questions. Are we not told time after upon them a task which they cannot accom-
time by writers that one of the most diffi- plish in the way it ought to be accomplished.
cult things a man can take up is the ques- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: But suppose the
tion of politics ? . It is a task upon which experts cannot agree !
we all enter with very light hearts, no Mr. GLYNN: Should we ask the people
doubt; but to bring together and reconcile to settle it before they have all the facts
upon some fair basis the conflicting inter- before them ? Should we ask them to study
ests and classes of society is one of the the details of an act of parliament, and to
biggest tasks to which any man can set say whether one house or the other is right
himself. Upon that point I have only to as to a matter of public policy? That is
say that Buckle, after so splendidly deal-
really what we are doing, and it strikes at
ing with this subject in that great work of the very root of the adoption of the referen-
his on “Civilisation," says that the greatest dum, viewing it from the point of view of
difficulty is to find the method of legis- consolidation. We hear it said that the will
lation, and not the desire of the people. of the people will be frustrated unless wé
The appeal we had from the Right Hon. introduce some measure to get rid of dead-
Mr. Reid simply amounted to this : The locks. Is not that an assumption that the
opinion of the people ought to prevail; popular house will always be right in its
but I answer him by saying that the people judgment, and the senate always wrong?
694
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
It is a curious fact that in four out of five zerland as an example. It was only this
cases of the application of the referendum century that Switzerland adopted represen-
in America the action of Parliament has tative institutions for the cantons, which
been negatived. The hon. and learned were established on the principle of having
member, Mr. Isaacs, has kindly put before only one chamber. They practically set up
the Convention some of the results of re- representative government there on the
ferring constitutional amendments to the principle of an oligarchy, without under-
people in California in 1892. I presume standing very much about it. They were
that these are cases in which the voice of therefore of necessity driven back to the
the Parliament—that is, the voice of the adoption of the referendum to check the
representative body, rather than the voice
autocracy of the single houses. In 1874
of the Upper House
however, they saw the desirability of es-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The voice of both! tablishing a federal constitution, and the
Mr. GLYNN: Yes, no doubt; but, as reasons which had operated with them
a matter of fact, we know that in America, at the beginning, and the cantonal prece-
as in England, the moving power in legis- dents, induced them to adopt the referen-
lation comes from below and the blocking dum again after a very hot debate. There-
power from above. However, I will put fore, we cannot rely upon Switzerland to
it in any way you like to put it. Here we furnish an example, either from the point
had questions referred to the people for of view of historical analogy, or of expe-
their opinion, and what did they do? In diency. Now, let us consider how the
stead of adopting the suggestions of Par- Swiss system has worked out. I refer to
liament they negatived them, in the one this matter because the representatives of
case by a majority of four to one, in another
the larger states have put their reliance
by a majority of three to one, in a third by upon the fact that the will of the people
a majority of three to one, and in a fourth is the will of the larger house, and that
by a substantial majority. So that, in four deadlocks will occur through the blocking
cases out of five put before us by the hon. from above. That is about the end of their
and learned member, we find the voice of the
arguments on the point. I think it would
people opposed to the wishes of Parliament.
be idle to imagine for a moment that there
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No; the voting is any fear of legislation, initiated by the
was a decision of the dispute between the senate, being blocked by the house of re-
two houses !
presentatives, and of this necessitating the
Mr. GLYNN: The people were called provision of machinery against deadlocks.
in to act as arbiters. These policies would What has occurred in Switzerland ? I find
not be brought before parliament if it were that in the majority of cases in Switzer-
not that parliament desired them to be land, proposals, supposed by the represent-
brought into operation. Parliament de-
tives of the people to be the expression of
sired that these constitutional amendments
the popular voice, have been negatived by
should be made, but the popular voice was the people. Between 1882 and 1885 every
asked for, and in four cases out of five it measure introduced into the Swiss Parlia-
was given in substantial opposition to the ment, and referred to the people, was nega-
voice of parliament. The hon. and learned' tived by them. It is stated by Mr. Lowell,
member, Mr. Isaacs, referred to Switzer- in his work upon government and parties
land. Before I deal with the details of
in continental Europe, that:
the voting in Switzerland, I would point
During the first three years after the adoption
out that we cannot rely much upon Swit- of the present constitution five laws were re-
[Mr. Glynn.
1
695
Commonwealth of
Australico Bill.
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
jected and only two accepted. Then there came Mr. Holder, would go, because this step
a quiet period of five years, in which no measure would allow the federal parliament to
passed by the Assembly was condemned by the
adopt the principle of the mass referen-
people, and, in fact, a popular vote on an ordi-
nary statute was asked for only once. The calm dum. Why should we not leave these mat-
was followed in 1882 by a storm of discontent, ters to the federal parliament ? Why
for the people had become so thoroughly out
should we anticipate the probability of
of sympathy with the radical tendencies of their
deadlocks by creating machinery to pre-
representatives, and were so disgusted at the
conduct of the party in power, that for three
vent them?
years they rejected every measure presented to The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : How would you
them.
do if one house wanted to pass a law pro-
Here we are asking for the adoption of a
viding for the referendum, and the other
provision to give expression to the popular
would not hear of it?
voice as represented by the house of repre- Mr. GLYNN: No doubt the hon. mem-
sentatives.
ber's interjection is very pregnant. But
Their ill-will culminated in May, 1884, when
there is no use in sticking to one rule for
they voted down four laws at a single stroke ;
but with this explosion the popular irritation
the passing of all amendments. I would
seems to have exhausted itself, and, perhaps, we provide that in the clashing of two houses
may add the legislators learned to be more cau-
you should offer greater facilities for the
tious. Another period of quiet began, and dur-
amendment of the constitution than exist
ing the next seven years the people again ratified
everything. In 1891 the spell was broken, and
in the bill as drafted. The hon, meinber
out of five measures submitted to popular vote, has quoted from the Constitution of Swit-.
two were voted down by large majorities.
zerland, where we find that, if a certain
This was, indeed, the precursor of a third era of
proposal for legislation is made by one
rejections, for during the last three years the
popular vote has been negatived in almost every
house and obstructed by the other, you can
put it to the people without referring it
So that, viewing the matter from a uni- to the other house at all.
tarian point of view, you are more likely The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The people and
to get the true expression of the people's the states !
will by leaving matters alone, and letting Mr. GLYNN: I will go further and say:
the upper house speak in the way of delay, If you propose an amendment to the con-
than by adopting any expedient to pre-
stitution which will enable an amendment
cipitate legislation. That is justified by to be carried providing for future deadlocks
statistics as to the operation of the refer- without in the final resort even the consent
endum in Switzerland. My remarks, how- of one house I will adopt that suggestion.
ever, apply to any referendum. I accept The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: What
the solution offered by the hon, and learned would the hon, and Icarned member pro-
member, Mr. Isaacs. By doing so, how- vide for?
ever, I am sacrificing very deep-rooted con- Mr. GLYNN: I am merely speaking
victions in regard to the policy of adopt- generally. I do not want to bind myself
ing any referendum. If I had my will, I down to details, because these are matters
should leave the adoption of the referen- which have only arisen during the debate..
dum for future legislation. I would make I would allow facilities for the amendment
this one of the matters which might be of the constitution with a view to making
legislated upon by the federal parliament, provision against deadlocks. In that case,
even though in doing so, I am going a I would provide that the measure should
great way further than any of my col- be carried into law without reference to the
leagues, except, perhaps, the hon. member, majority senate at all.
case,
696
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Would occurs, you can make provision for avoiding
that be after a mass vote by the people? that deadlock, but only for the deadlock
Mr. GLYNN : Yes, a mass vote; but arising in connection with that measure..
it must be borne in mind that I am only The object of other proposals making pro-
dealing with a provision that would give vision for avoiding deadlocks is to fix the
some means of getting rid of a deadlock by provisions in the constitution. I would
legislation.
leave it to the federal parliament to make
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Would provision for deadlocks rather than tempt
you allow the house of representatives, a clashing of the houses by making provision
supported by a mass vote of the people, to for deadlocks in anticipation. I am simply
pass a measure into law without the con- giving a general indication of the liberality
sent of the senate ?
with which I would deal with the question
Mr. GLYNN: Yes; I would as a last of amendment. I shall not detain the
resort allow one house to make any provi- Convention any longer upon this question.
sion it liked with regard to deadlocks under I believe that the referendum as a matter
the conditions I have mentioned.
of general policy is a step in the wrong
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That direction. At the same time, I know there
is further than we propose to go!
is a strong and deeply-rooted conviction
Mr. GLYNN: I would be inclined to among some people as to the necessity of a
go that length inyself, believing the emer provision against deadlocks beingembodied
gency would never arise.
in this constitution. I know that during
An Hon. MEMBER: That is going further the last two years in Australia we have
than the Victorian members wish to go ! had five attempts to introduce the refer-
Mr. GLYNN: I am prepared to trust
endum into our constitutions. Victoria ac-
the good sense of the people.
tually went the length, on the recommend-
An Hon. MEMBER: That is when the ation of a commission, of introducing a
hon. meinber is right!
bill that would on the reference of a mat-
Mr. GLYNN: I would not say that. I ter to the people dispense with the neces-
have a great respect for the bon. member's sity for a second horse. So that I cannot
acumen and ability ; but when we are be so far wrong in the suggestion I throw
dealing with the destinies of the country, out when in Victoria it was proposed that
I think, sacrificing the credit of a smart after a referendum bad taken place you
repartee, such remarks might be dispensed could legislate by declaring that one par-
with. I therefore will not be tempted. I ticular house, the legislative assembly, with
am glad the hon. member has given me the the consent of the people and without men-
strength of his support. I have made this tioning the upper house at all, had resolved
suggestion for the consideration of the Con- that any particular measure should become
vention. I can see no danger in allowing law. Again, in Tasmania, New Zealand,
an amendment of the constitution, making South Australia, and, I think, in one of the
provision for deadlocks, even though you other colonies, within the last two years at-
have to dispense with the voice of one house. tempts have bcen made to embody the refer-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Who endum in the constitutions. It is evident,
is to say what the provision is to be ? therefore, that there are strongly rooted
Mr. GLYNN: The house which intro- prejudices in favour of the referendum, and
duces it. The house passes a measure and
those prejudices I intend to respect.
sends it to the second chamber, and they say,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is rather
“No, we will not pass it.” If a deadlock bard to call them prejudices !
|
Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of [16 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 697
Mr. GLYNN: Of course the hon. mem- The Hon. H. W. VENN (Western
ber will excuse me for saying that as I Australia) (4.33]: Those who have not
argue against the referendum altogether, addressed the Convention up to the present
I would say that this is nothing but a con- time have enjoyed a great advantage in
cession. As there is a strongly.expressed listening to the speeches which have been
opinion in favour of the referendum through- already made. It is not now necessary to
out the colonies, I respect that prejudice, weary the House by a recapitulation of
and believing that we must make some con- the arguments contained in the many great
cession to that strongly-expressed opinion, speeches we have listened to. We have
I believe the best mode was that suggested now come to the point at which we must
by Victoria, but I would like to make a give a decision on the important question
separation, if possible, between matters which will be put from the Chair in a few
which are of a unitarian character, and
minutes. That question is: is it or is it
those which are state questions. That you not desirable to manufacture some means
cannot do it by the method suggested by of providing against deadlocks? Imyself,
the Right Hon. G. H. Reid goes without I hope in conjunction with many others,
saying. You cannot fix in the constitution believe that it is not at all desirable to pro-
beforehand what are and what are not state vide a medicine for a disease that we never
matters. If the tariff question comes up you expect to suffer from. I am too firmly
cannot make provision in the constitution convinced of the ability, wisdom, and
for the case of one colony, which may say education of the future senate and bouse
tbat the tariff will be disastrous to it.
of representatives of the federal parliament
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You do not to believe that a deadlock will ever affect
give the larger colonies a chance of saying Australia prejudicially. The opinions ex-
that the tariff will be disastrous to us. Why pressed by some of the ablest members of
should that be given to the smaller states ? the Convention in this debate are thoroughly
Mr. GLYNN: I am quite willing that in accord with my convictions on that sub-
the fallacy of the hon. member's argument ject. The hon. member, Mr. McMillan’s,
should be extended to both the large and speech must have carried conviction to the
the small states. Whether they affect the minds of every hon. member who listened
large or small states, we cannot define in to him. Without desiring to give a silent
the constitution the nature of the ques- vote on this question I will content myself
tions that will arise ; but you might, as by saying that I will be found in the ranks
suggested to me by the President of the of those who think it is undesirable to
Convention in private, allow a minority in import an element of this kind into our
the parliament or senate to declare that if constitution.
in any matter of legislation state interests The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
were affected, that question could be separ- (South Australia) [4:35]: I would not rise
ated from ordinary legislation and the dual to address the Convention a second time
referendum could be applied to it. That on the same subject did I not feel that the
is a suggested addition to the Victorian occasion is so grave that our maturest con-
proposal for dealing with deadlocks. sideration might well be given to the mat-
think the smaller states might very well ter which is before us. When my hon. and
accept such a proposal. I do not see that learned friend, Mr. O'Connor, sit down
it could do any harm to their interests, yesterday with the word “unification
and it would certainly be a concession to practically on his lips, I felt warmly. I
the demands of the larger states.
rose immediately, and spoke strongly, per-
698
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
haps more strongly than on maturer de munity, might for a considerable period pre-
liberation I would have wished to do. At vent effect being given to what undoubtedly
the same time I spoke, being unable to was the national will. Under such cir-
divest myself altogether of the character cumstances, the resentment to which I
in which I came here, bound to do my duty tried to give expression yesterday, and
to the commonwealth at large, but sent which was natural under the circumstances,
here by the voice of the electors of one of would be as nothing to the resentment to
the smaller states. When the word "uni- which I might properly give expression as
fication” was employed, I applied it not a representative of the larger state when
unnaturally to some questions affecting the national interests were subordinated to
states as opposed to the nation, affecting provincial notions by a combination of that
the state from which I come, say such a character, and in which state rights, as a
question as the Murray waters, in which matter of fact, were not really concerned.
I think our state interests are of such a Now, sir, is there any way out of this
character that it would be highly undesir- difficulty? I think there is. I think that,
able that there should be any power in the whilst there are questions to which we
federation to legislate on them finally, un- may properly apply the term, “state in-
less there was a consensus of opinion be- terests," in which tbe states have a right,
tween a majority of the nation, and a ma- I will not say. to a predominating voice,
jority of the states. I spoke from that point but to such a voice as will prevent them
of view, and I felt that I was entitled to re- from being finally dealt with, unless there
sent the suggestion that, in a matter in is the consent of a majority of the represen-
which the state interests were so vitally tatives of those states; still, on the other
concerned, the state individuality should hand, there are questions to which no
be practically exposed to the risk of ex- such term can be properly applied, which
tinction by the voice of the nation with- are national questions, and with which the
out due consultation with the states. I states have no right to interfere practi-
hold, however, that we should approach a cally as states-certainly not for any con-
question of this sort from every point of siderable period to subordinate the well-
view, and, if we are bound to disagree expressed will of the nation to their own
with the expressions which are used by independent view, and when they have no
any other member of the Convention, we independent interest in the matter. How
should endeavour, as far as we possibly then is it possible to differentiate between
can, to put ourselves in his place, and these two different classes of cases?
for the purpose of securing a solution The Hon. H. DOBSON : It is impossible !
that is fair to all, to picture to ourselves The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I.
what our feelings would be were we cir- do not think you can do it within the four
cumstanced as he is. Under these circum- corners of the bill.
stances, I asked myself what would be The Hon. H. DOBSON: Certainly not!
the position which, as a representative of The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
a larger state, I would be inclined to adopt do not think you can do it by picking out
when it was proposed that, in a matter in from the constitution various provisions,
which we were not concerned as states, in and saying, “This may affect state rights ;
a matter of purely national importance, a
that will have no such effect.” It seems
provision was to be adopted by which a to me that whether or not a question
combination of the smaller states, repre- affects state rights is capable of determina-
senting only a small section of the com- tion at the time that question arises, when
The Right IIon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
699
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
those who are called upon to decide it have -on provincial grounds. You cannot take
before them all the circumstances which a majority of the house of representatives,
may affect the interests of the nation or because they being in opposition to the
the provinces. I am adopting, to some ex- senate, would be supposed to decide on
tent, a suggestion which has been made by national grounds. But provide for taking
my
hon. and learned friend, Mr. Isaacs. I the referendum by the people, unless by
put it to hon. members : Can we not hit an expression of opinion from a section-
on some middle course in connection with a representative minority of the house of
this matter? Representatives of the smaller representatives--it is declared that state
states on one side, and representatives of rights are involved, and a poll of the states
the larger states on the other-all represen- is demanded.
tatives of the nation that is to be; is not The Hon. Sir J. W. DoWNER : Then
there any possibility of making an arrange- you sacrifice the people to the representa-
ment which will conserve the rights of the tives?
provinces, and, at the same time, have due The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
regard for the interests of the nation ? sacrifice the people to their representatives,
I think it can be done. To put it within how? The position is this : There is a pos-
the four corners of the constitution by sibility of the dual referendum, subordin-
specifying the powers will be impossible. ating, it seems to me, the interests of the
There seems to be a consensus of opinion nation to a combination of the states. Let
as regards the propriety of the double dis- us, a minority of the people, provide, there-
solution, and no doubt that will be carried. fore, that that shall not be the general rule,
But suppose that; that does not remove the but at the same time let us take care to
difficulty, does not, as it were, sweep away
conserve the interests of the state, and if
the deadlock, what are you to do? The there is any real reason in favour of the
referendum is suggested. To whom should question being treated as a state question,
the referendum be applied? Some say, in which state rights are concerned, send
"Refer the question to the nation”; while it on to a dual referendum, and do not act
"Provide for a dual referen- unless you get a double majority. What I
dum," a referendum in which double ma- would put by way of suggestion for the
jorities are required of the nation and of acceptance of the Convention is : that if,
the state.
I
suggest that it should be to say, one-third-I am not wedded to any
the nation as a mass, unless you have good particular proportion—of the house of re-
ground for believing that state interests are presentatives declare when a reference is
concerned in the matter, and then that it is proposed, or at any convenient time of
a question which, for its solution, will re- course, that is a matter of detail—that the
quire a consensus of opinion between ma- matter is one in which state interests are
jorities of the people and majorities of the concerned, it should not be decided by a
states. How are you going to decide? I national referendum, but a dual majority
suggest this way, and I am prepared to take should be required for satisfactorily dealing
this course, having every reliance on the re- with it.
sponsibility under' which a vote of this kind The Hon, E. BARTON: Would not a
can be given. You cannot let the majority clearer way of putting it be for a majority
of the senate decide, because thesupposition of two-thirds to declare that state interests
is that they are in opposition to the will of are not involved.
the house of representatives. They may The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
decide-I am putting a hypothetical case That is a matter of the most absolute
others say,
700
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
detail; it is the same principle. Members of ing, if possible, in securing some effective
the Convention will see this: that the re- mode of giving effect to principles which,
sult will be that when practically there is at least, will rscommend themselves to the
an overwhelming majority in the liouse of Convention-very difficult of accomplish-
representatives in favour of the matter ment—that I have made these remarks.
being treated as a national question, it Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [4:51]:
will be so treated; but still, at the same I only rise to re-echo the sentiment which
time, the interests of the smaller states has just been expressed, that it is the duty
will be covered by a provision of the of everyone of us to lend what assistance
character to which I refer, and which will we can to the solution of this very diffi-
enable them, although in a position of cult and intricate problem—a problem not
being only one-half of the majority which only difficult and intricate, but one the
is against them on the question—as long wise solution of which involves so much
as there is a substantial representation
in connection with the great cause we are
that the matter is a state question, to have here to promote. As at present advised,
all the protection they can possibly desire
it seems to me that the contribution we
by means of the dual referendum. I have have just heard rather adds to the existing
risen for the purpose of making this sug.
obscurity than tends to dissipate it. It is
gestion. It is not a new matter. I dealt absolutely bewildering to introduce at this
with the question in 1891, when I submit- particular stage another referendum. We
ted that the operations of the senate, called have been dealing with two or three modes
into existence for the purpose of protect-
of solving the problem of deadlocks, but
ing state rights, should, as far as possible, we are now to have introduced into the
be limited as regards practical interfer-
constitution two kinds of referendum. We
ence to cases when those rights are con-
shall never know what sort of referendum
cerned. I have since been embarrassed is to be adopted—whether it is to be a
by the difficulty of securing anything in
dual referendum or a mass referendum. I
the shape of a definition which will mark am not going to say, at this moment,
the line of demarcation between state ques-
whether there is anything to commend it
tions and national questions. I make the
in the suggestion which has been offered,
suggestion I have made in the hope that but what I suggest is that upon a matter
it may be of some little assistance in the of this kind, after a debate which has
solution of the question.
lasted two days, dealing with the amend-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Not the
ments which are on the papers in our
slightest!
hands, we might well ask to have this sug-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:I gestion thrown into some tangible form
am very sorry, indeed.
and put in print before we begin to abso-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWXER : That is lutely discuss it.
my opinion !
Mr. Higgins : Certainly !
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
Mr. SYMON: I dare say the hon.
am sorry, indeed, it does not meet with the member, Mr. Higgins, has control of the
approval of my hon, colleague. I think whole subject, and that he is going to settle
the principle is generally recognised that
the question right off. I have not that
in national questions the vote of the nation quickness and acuteness of intellect of my
shall prevail. Instate concerns there should
hon. friend. I have been endeavouring to
be a double majority before definite action
do the best I could with the materials at
is taken, and it is for the purpose of assist-
my disposal in connection with the propo-
[The Right IIon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
701
716 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
sals which have been submitted during the
Victoria. . But what it all came to boiled
last two or three days, and I am not pre-
down I could not for the life of me make
pared now, just at the time we are about to out.
adjourn, to enter on a new field of investi- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I think
gation and deal with something which, at the people of New South Wales will know
any rate, whether successful or not, is im- what it came to !
posing a fresh complication on this very
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
difficult problem. That is all I rose to say right hon. gentleman, with his back to the
except this : that, on the face of it, this is Chairman
a relinquishment of everything we have An Hon. MEMBER : The speech was not
been contending for with regard to the meant for us!
mass referendum. If a two-thirds major-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Ad-
ity of the house of representatives is to
dressed those who sat in the front gallery.
decide a question of state interests as I myself did not know exactly whom the
against the interests of some particular hon. member was addressing, but the hon.
state, however small, then I say we bad member himself undoubtedly knew exactly
better abandon the whole thing. But,
whom he was addressing.
again, I say I do not ask any hon. mem- The Right Hon G. H. REID: I repre-
ber—I do not ask myself—to accept that sent them too !
view as in any respect final. I hope hon. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Sit-
members will not suppose for a moment ting here as a member of the Convention
that I intend to throw any cold water on who thought that we were entitled to be
the subject, but that we will give it the addressed, and not so much those in the
best consideration we can, and if we find galleries, I felt myself rather confused
that it is not obnoxious to the objections both to know the line of reasoning of the
which seem to me, if I may use a legal hon. member and the persons whom he
phrase, to prima facie surround it we may addressed.
be able to evolve something out of it. At The Right Hon. G. H. REID:
present it is a waste of time to further The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
discuss it.
right hon. gentleman may interject as much
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South as he likes ; I shall take no notice of his
Australia) [4.55]: I listened with great interjections. But I want to know what
pleasure to the speech of the right hon. his speech, after all, came to. It was an
the Premier of New South Wales. I in- able speech.
tended to say nothing in reference to it The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Bluff !
had it not been for the speech we have The Hon. H. DOBSON: This speech is
just had from the right hon.. the Premier not helping federation !
of South Australia. As far as the speech The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
of the Premier of New South Wales is not think the speech of the Premier of
concerned, I must confess I was confused New South Wales belped federation. I
and bewildered to know exactly what it have had the honor to be on friendly terms
· meant. I knew it to be an able speech, with the right hon. gentleman, and I cer-
because everyone said so. I know that it tainly wish to say nothing which will
was delightful to listen to, because I had offend him in any way ; but his speech
the enthralment effects. I knew it was a undoubtedly suggested many things, and
humorous speech, because everyone laughed, meant nothing. We understood that there
and notably one of the hon. gentlemen from were to be some cases in which there should
702
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
be a popular referendum, and other cases affect the public mind are so intimately
in which there should not; and we bare connected with money that it would be
heard from the Premier of our own colony, difficult to find a bill which did not rest
who seems to be moving on the same lines, at bottom upon the question of money.
that he is of the same opinion. What are We either have to say, therefore, that we
these questions to be? That is what I will have a national referendum altogether,
want to know. What are to be the crucial or we have to say we will not have any at
questions which are properly subjects for all. There is no intermediate way. To
a national referendum, and what are the my mind, it is quite impossible to select
subjects which ought to be left to a dual any subjects which you could say were
referendum? We have had very little proper subjects for the nation to speak
assistance from anyone in arriving at a upon and to distinguish them from other
conclusion on that point. We have cer- subjects which it would be proper for the
tainly had very little assistance from the states to speak upon, and yet other sub-
right hon. the Premier of New South jects upon which it would be proper for
Wales on the subject. I understood in a both to speak upon. Everything in life is
general sort of way that the question of so intimately involved that things are con-
finance, and particularly the question of stantly overlapping. You never know
free-trade and protection, was to be one of precisely where you are upon many ques-
the subjects to be left to a national refer- tions.
endum. But it was put in such a hazy The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You make
ill-defined form that we, who are trying to yourself safe all round, and I am dissatis-
draft a bill to make a constitution, have fied; I want to be a bit safe too !
the greatest difficulty in understanding The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : I
precisely what it comes to Take, for in- sympathise with that view, and I'think it
stance, the question of customs. We con- would have been much better had the
sider that that is a matter which can be right hon. gentleman taken us more into
talked about only by the selected of the his confidence and told us what he meant ;
people's representatives in Committee. if, instead of making a very able speech,
Upon this question, upon which member to which we all listened with delight, he
after member speaks again and again, which condescended to bring himself to the
is considered line after line, which is con- humble position of the Drafting Com-
sidered one of so much importance in de- mittee.
tail that those who are supposed to have The Right Hon. G. H. REID : What are
more knowledge upon the subject than the Drafting Comunittee for ?
have the general public, have to approach The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: To
its consideration with the greatest caution, find out what you mean.
They have not
there is to be a reference, after all, to the succeeded so far, and that is what I am
general public for their "aye” or “nay." complaining about.
It seems to me quite impossible that such The Hon. E. BARTON: We are not here
a question could be intelligently answered to explain the milky way!
by the public in any shape or form. Then The Right Hon. G. H. REID : If the
it is proposed that all questions involving hon. gentleman agreed with me, he would
money are to be sent to a national refer- soon find a means of drafting !
endum. We are practically saying that The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
everything should be sent to a national always find that I agree with the right
referendum, because all matters which hon. gentleman more and more as most of
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
703
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
us do when we come to closer quarters ; Premier of New South Wales; but it did
but at present, I say, upon my honor, I do not involve any particular position—it was
not know what he means; and I say, on a most able speech, and full of points, full
my honor, that I do not believe he himself of humour, perfectly delightful, but in the
knows what he means. I do not know at end we all said, as the public will say to-
the present moment what my bon. friend morrow when they read it in the paper,
means—what he wishes the referendum " What does it all mean?” I do not know.
about. I do not know either what the I know it means something.
right hon. the Premier of South Australia The Hon. S. FRASER : Let us get to
wants.
closer quarters !
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: That The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
is the hon. gentleman's misfortune, not my think that at this stage of the discussion
fault!
we might have asked the right hon. gentle-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is man to be a little more precise.
the duty of my hon. friend to so instruct The Hon. S. FRASER : Well, we will
less intelligent persons as to let them know force bim into closer quarters !
a little bit-only a little bit-edgeways The Hon. Sir J.W.DOWNER: I would
what he is up to.
I cannot, for the life not like to do that. The right hon. gen-
of me, understand myself what he is up tleman's weight is too much for me. I
to. I understand the hon. gentleman is like to keep him at a respectful distance.
very strongly in favour of popular repre- But I say that the right hon. gentleman's
sentation. He wants always the people's speech, while delighting me, left me at
voice, and not the voice of any one else. last in a state of bewilderment-delighted,
Yet an arbitrary third of the house of repre- but still wondering what this glorious vic-
sentatives, without any question of the re- tory was all about—and I feel just the same
lation of the states or the number of repre- at the present moment. We are here try-
sentatives they return, is to determine the ing to settle a question which is of vital
matter. In other words, only the voice of importance—Are we or are we not to hare
the nation in the house of representatives
federation? There is an agreement all
is to determine whether a matter is to be round that if there is to be a general refer..
sent to a national referendum, or is to form endum, it is so against all the principles,
the subject of a dual referendum.
so against all the history, of federation, so
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: Two- inconsistent with the very essence of that
thirds can demand a national referendum; which we call a federation, that the matter
cne-third can prevent it!
is ended, and our discussion need proceed
The Hon. Sir. J. W. DOWNER: I no further; and yet we have at the same
understand that.
time all this refinement, and a middle
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Then the course is suggested by the Premiers of
hon. gentleman did understand what my
New South Wales and South Australia,
hon. friend said !
which is to segregate certain subjects,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I which they are not good enough to define.
understood what he said.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: What glad that I suggested something. I did
more could you expect?
not think that the hon. and learned gentle.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: As I man understood ine a bit!
have said, I never listened with more de-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
light to any speech than to that of the going to show the right hon. gentleman
704
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
that I did not. The right hon. gentlemen sentatives might, by their action, destroy
proposed to segregate certain subjects the rights of the smaller states, force a
which they were not good enough to de- national referendum, and leave the ques-
fine, and to say that those were proper
tion of dual referendum out of considera-
subjects for the referendum, knowing the tion altogether. The speech that I heard
absolute impossibility of any one defining from the right hon. member, Sir George
those subjects, mentioning questions of Turner, like most of his speeches, had a
finance, but mentioning them only for the ring of honesty that recommended it to
purpose of showing how they ran through
me.
everything in legislation; and they were The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Because
forced at last to the suggestion that the he agreed with the hon. and learned
test should not be the views of the people member!
of the different states, which they profess
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
so strongly to represent, but the views of not mind that. I admit that when a man
a certain proportion of the members of the agrees with you, you do not like him any
house of representatives—not of both houses the less for that; but he did not agree
-which had no necessary relation at all to
with me.
their constitution with regard to the dif- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No-
ferent states, and which might in fact body could absolutely agree with the hon.
represent one state, and one state only.
and learned gentleman !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is all the The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: There
better !
is only one person who generally does, and
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : The that is not far from home. But what I
two-thirds which those right hon. gentle recognised in the right hon. gentleman's
men are in favour of might all come from speech was a true federal spirit--quite
one state.
apart from my local limitations.
An HON. MEMBER: That could not be ! The Right Hon. G. H. REID: We know
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: And what a true federal spirit means.
Tbe
then they would have the general referen- little chap “collars ” the lot!
dum, and that one state would rule, feder- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
ation would be at an end, and Australia quite sure that the Right Hon. Sir George
would become a consolidated concern: Turner said just what he thought. Anxious
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The for federation, he told us something I did
right hon. member, Mr. Kingston, said not care for, and which I mean to oppose;
that one-third could demand a double refer- but still he recognised the foundation prin-
endum !
ciple that throughout all this discussion I
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I care have had in my heart and mean to con-
not whether one-third or two-thirds could tend for, when he said that there should
demand it. I say that the result would be a federation, and that this Convention
be that powers which those right hon. gen- should not result in something which it is
tlemen say belong to the people would be not our mission to create--the consolida-
transferred to the members of the house of tion of the whole of the colonies. Whether
representatives. I hope that the right hon. the senate is or is not forced back to its
member, Sir George Turner, does not mis- constituents, as the house of representa-
understand me, for I agree with a great tives may, of course, be, I look upon as a
deal of what he said. A certain majority
A certain majority matter of detail about which we need not
-I care not whatấof the house of repre- trouble ourselves very much. There is
t
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Douner.
Conmonwealth of
705
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
great force in the view which the right termination to do all I can to prevent any
hon. the Premier of Victoria takes—that so-called federation from coming about on
we should have some sort of guarantee terins such as these.
that the members of the senate as well as The Hon. C. H. GRANT (Tasmania)
the members of the house of representa- [5:14]: I trust that hon. members will bear
tives shall truly represent the persons who with me a few moments while I make a
return them. So far as that is concerned, few remarks, which I am sure will here be
I see no obstacle in the right hon. member's of an unpopular character, drawing atten-
views to the federation of Australia ; but tion to the character of our legislation in
if we go beyond that—if we go beyond the regard to this federal movement. When
question of the dissolution of one, or the we first commenced the consideration of a
dissolution of the other, or the dissolution federation constitution there is no doubt
of both, or, if you please, even a referen- that we were all imbued with a much more
dum—although I hate it
conservative spirit than we have at the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Call it an present time. We have been gradually
appeal to the people !
widening our platform, and have, so far,
The Hon. E. BARTON : No; that is a framed a new and original constitution,
dissolution-a different thing !
one of a unique character, and, therefore,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: A
we might well consider whether it will
dual referendum, although I detest it, still work satisfactorily. We should be very
I will accept it in my enthusiasm for careful before going further in a demo-
federation rather than see the great cause cratic direction, and should consider well
fail; but when we have introduced, first before deciding to give effect to the re-
of all, the national referendum—which is ferendum, which, of all democratic ideas,
destructive of all we have come here to is one of the most extreme. When the
construct, and which we have been very Convention sat in 1891 it was never in-
industriously and laboriously constructing tended that the senate should be elected
-or a refinement of it, which practically in the manner now proposed in this bill.
leaves us just as we were, and throws on It has assumed a character quite unique,
the majority--which has no reference to and is now in a form calculated to do
states, and which might in effect be com- violence to the feelings of those who are
posed entirely of one state—the power of conservative in their ideas, because it is
bringing this same destructive, anti-federal such a large departure from what we have
spirit about, then I feel it my duty, strong
been accustomed to consider as necessary
views as I entertain on this subject, to ex- in such an august body as a senate.
press my opinions adversely toit. Although We have now decided that the senate
we may all speak as often as we please at shall be based on manhood suffrage, and.
this stage of the Convention, I had not have thus given it the very widest possible
intended, after the many able speeches in basis. At the Adelaide Convention we
which the views of hon. members have been attempted to give it an element of con-
represented, to say any more about this tinuity by providing that its members
question ; but I do think that I have not should have a six years' tenure of office;
trespassed too much on the time of the that one half of the members should vacate
Committee, and that I have only done my their seats at the end of the first three
duty to myself in rising now to enter my year's, so that, as regards half the senate,
vehement protest against the suggestion
the voice of the electors should be ascer-
that is now made, and to express my. de-
tained every three years. We are now
3 c
1
706
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT, 1897.]
1
asked to depart from that principle, and to be sent to their constituents at any time,
as far as the referendum is concerned, the will not have. I look with apprehension
departure would be a very serious one in- upon any attempt to interfere with that
deed, and one which should only be adopted continuity of office in the senate, or any
after the most mature consideration. We
attempt to deprive it of that exclusive and
have always been accustomed, and rightly conservative character which we have al-
so, to consider the lower branch of the ways been accustomed to regard as be-
legislature the popular house. We do not
longing to an upper house. That being
complain that it is also based on the widest so, it is not desirable that we should take
franchise and that it is truly representa- into consideration the question of provid-
tive of the people as component parts of a ing for deadlocks. We might safely leave
nation. But we have always been in the it to the good sense of the two houses we
habit of regarding the senate as a chamber
propose to construct under this bill to
to be constituted on a different basis, as settle any differences that might arise be-
senates have been, and are at the present tween them. In all cases the more per-
time, in other countries, and as being dis- manent body, having regard to their con-
tinguished by continuity of office. We stitution, and knowing that they are not
know that the Senate of Canada is a
so immediately in touch with their consti-
permanent body. We know.also that the
tuents, have always been ready to bow to
House of Lords, which is in one of the the will of the popular branch, and I do
models of our Constitution, is a permanent not doubt that it will be so in the case
body. The senates of our local legislatures of the proposed senate. The
The upper cham-
are, in some cases, permanent bodies, and in ber is not only so constructed that, on its
other cases elected for considerable periods. first election, it will be “broad-based on
But we are proposing to destroy altogether the people's will,” but every three years
that idea of continuity, and fixity of tenure there will be a reference to the people
in the senate, and revert to a referendum on the part of half its members. It will,
whenever differences arise. I do not see therefore, always be in full touch with
much objection to the dissolution of the the constituencies, and we should con-
senate composed as it is; but I think it sider whether it is advisable to derogate
would be better that we should not go even from its prestige by sending all its men-
to that extent. We might very well give bers to the country in an attempt to
up any notion of being troubled with dead- settle disputes, and thus belittle them in
locks. There will be no occasion in the
the estimation of the commonwealth. It
constitution we are framing to make any would be very unfortunate to so constitute
elaborate provision against deadlocks, and the senate that its members could be sent
in my opinion it is unnecessary that there back to their constituents at any time.
should be a referendum or even a dissolu- The chief function of a senate is exercisech
tion of the senate on any occasion whatever. in times of popular commotion, so that in
The two houses will be elected on practi- case of any exceptionally stirring event, or
cally the same franchise. The only differ- serious difficulty arising, it can allow the
ence I can see between them--for I have no people time to recover from their tempor-
doubt they will equally represent the will ary agitation, and consider the matter with
of the people—is that the senate will have calmness and deliberation. I notice that in
continuity of office. This will give to it a the provision for the referendum, this view
permanent character, with stability in its has received some consideration, inasmuch
deliberations, which the lower house, liable as a certain period of time has been allowed
[The Hon. C. H. Grant.
Commonwealth of
707
[16 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
before the referendum can be applied, or The-Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic-
before the senate can be dissolved. But I toria) [5.26]: Might I make a suggestion ?
think we should go
further than that. We I understand that my hon. and learned
should not make any provision whatever friend does not want the whole of this
for dissolving the senate. But should we clause to be voted upon at once.
He
do so, the proposal of the hon, and learned wants to take a test division upon the
member, Mr. Symon, I think would be the question whether we should provide any
best, that after the house of representa- mode of settling disputes between the
tives has been dissolved, that house and two houses of legislature. The hon. and
the senate should be dissolved together, learned member will see, however, that if
and thus the concrete will of the people at he moves to strike out the words which he
the time ascertained.
proposes to strike out, the question will
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [5-24]: be," that the words proposed to be omitted
You intimated, sir, that the question you stand part of the clause."
proposed from the chair was put in order The Hon. E. BARTON : He can move
to give the Committee an opportunity of his amendment by way of insertion !
expressing their views on the subject with- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
out committing themselves to anything would suggest that he move the omission
definite. I intend to move the omission of the first word in the clause, the word
of all the words of the amendment after “If." We might accept a vote upon that
the first word “ If," with a view of carry- question as a test vote upon the question
ing into effect the intimation you were
whether we should provide any means for
good enough to give from the chair. The settling deadlocks. If we decide that the
first thing to be decided is whether a word “If” should stand part of the
majority of the Convention is, as I appre- clause, we shall be perfectly free to deal
hend, in favour of making some kind of with any suggestion that is made after-
provision for the prevention of what has wards.
been referred to as deadlocks. The ques- Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [5.27]:
tion could be decided upon the proposal Undoubtedly the solution offered by my
to omit these words. If a majority of right hon. friend seems simple. The first
the Convention decides in favour of their question to be decided is whether we are
omission, the way will be clear for the
to make any provision against deadlocks.
submission of each successive proposal. If we decide that the word “If” shall
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : But
stand, we shall have affirmed the propo-
if we omitted these words could their in-
sition that provision should be made. Then
sertion be submitted to us!
- to show what was in my mind—I pro-
Mr. SYMON: I think so. At all events, pose to move an amendment, providing
I only desire to clear the way in order that for the double dissolution, as it exists upon
we may record our votes upon the question the statute-book of South Australia. That
of making provision against deadlocks.
proposal will come first in any event. What
The CHAIRMAN: I would point out to I understand is—and I want to be quite
the hon. member that if he wishes to in- clear upon this point-that the proposed
sert new words I can propose the insertion referendum, whether it be a dual referen-
of these words after the word “If.” Then, dum or a mass referendum, is meant to be a
if that amendment is negatived, anyone proceeding subsequent to the result of the
who wishes a modification of the clause as dissolution of the senate. Therefore there
it stands can move another amendment, may be, and possibly there will be but I
1
708
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[16 SEPT., 1897.1
do not make any prediction, although I or amending his proposal. If the amend-
know how I am going to vote myself—a ment is rejected, the paragraph will remain
majority of the Convention in favour of.the as it stands now, and will be open to
dissolution of the house of representatives amendment in every particular, so that all
first, then of a successive dissolution of the the details in it and the preceding para-
senate, or of a dissolution of both houses graph will be subject to such modifica-
at once, which is a matter of detail to be tions as will suit the desires of the Com-
determined after; and then we should have mittee.
to deal with the question whether a dual re-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : If the
ferendum or a mass referendum, such as has
course suggested by the hon. and learned
been described, should be adopted.
member is taken it will not enable those
An Hon. MEMBER: A national refer-
who desire to do so to have a test vote
endum !
upon the question whether we should or
Mr. SYMON: A national referendum! should not provide means for the preven-
That is the better and more euphonious tion of deadlocks. I would suggest that
phrase. I apprehend that the first thing
we should get a vote upon the question
we have to do after deciding that some by dividing upon the omission of the
means shall be provided for preventing word “If.”
deadlocks is to deal with the question of
The Hon. E. BARTON: I take it that
dissolving the senate. Having dealt with
those who are against providing any means
that question, we then proceed to decide
to prevent deadlocks will find exercise for
whether or not there is to be a referendum,
their aspirations by voting against each
subject to modification in regard to the
successive proposal. It seems to me that
provisions made for a dissolution. I will
the right way to deal with the proposal of
accept the recommendation of the right hon.
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon,
member, Sir George Turner, and will move
is that suggested by the Chairman. How-
the omission of the word " If.”
ever, if the right hon. member, Sir John
An Hon. MEMBER: The hon, and learned
Forrest, wishes to movean amendment prior
gentleman cannot do that, because he is in
to that of the hon. and learned member,
favour of making some provisions against
Mr. Symon, the course is open to him to
deadlocks.
Of course, we could then take a
Mr. SYMON: Well, if I cannot more
division upon the general question as to
the omission of the word myself, I hope
whether means could be provided for pre-
that the amendment will be moved.
venting deadlocks.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
Wales) [5:29]: As we are not going to sit
(Western Australia) [5-33]: With a view
to-night, I do not think that a vote can
be taken upon the proposition which I
to getting a test vote upon the question
whether the Committee desires that pro-
understand the hon, and learned member,
vision should be made for the prevention
Mr. Symon, intends to submit.
of deadlocks, I move :
gest, therefore, that Mr. Chairman's re-
That the word “If” at the beginning of the
commendation be adopted. The hon. and
paragraph be omitted.
learned member might begin his proposi-
Question—That the word proposed to
tion with the words “the senate," and
be omitted stand part of the clause--put.
move its insertion after the word “ If.” I
The Committee divided :
make the suggestion for the reason that
this gives a clear opportunity for adopting Ayes, 30; noes, 15; majority, 15.
do so.
I sug-
:.
Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
709
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
AYES.
1
Abbott, Sir Joseph Kingston, C. C.
Berry, Sir G.
Leake, G.
Brunker, J. N.
Lewis, N. E.
Carruthers, J. H. McMillan, W.
Clarke, M. J.
O'Connor, R. E.
Lockburn, Dr. J. A. Peacock, A. J.
Deakin, A.
Quick, Ir. J.
Fraser, S.
Reid, G. H.
Fysh, Sir, P. O. Solomon, V. L.
Glynn, P. M.
Symon, J. H.
Gordon, J. H.
Trenwith, W. A.
Henry, J.
Turner, Sir G.
Higgins, H. B. Wise, B. R.
Holder, F. W.
Howe, J. H.
Teller,
Isaacs, I. A.
Barton, E.
Noes.
Briggs, H.
Henning, A. H.
Brown, N. J.
James, W. H.
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Dobson, H.
Venn, H. W.
Douglas, A.
Walker, J. T.
Downer, Sir J. W. Zeal, Sir W. A.
Grant, C. H.
Teller,
Hassell, A. Y. Forrest, Sir J.
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
Progress reported.
Convention adjourned at 5:38 p.m.
with any amendment not agreed to by the house
transmitting the proposed law, the provisions
of the following sections of this part shall.
apply.
(6.) The proposed law passed and transmitted
in the second session may include any amend-
ment agreed to by both houses in the first
session.
The house in which the proposed law origi-
nated may pass a resolution that, in its opinion,
the proposed law is of an urgent nature, and
may transmit the resolution and the proposed
law with any amendments agreed to by both
houses up to the time of transmission to the
other house, with a request for further con-
sideration.
If within thirty days of the transinission of
the proposed law as last aforesaid, or if the
session shall end before the expiration of such
period, then within thirty days of the commence-
ment of the next session of the same parliament,
the other house shall not pass the proposed law
without amendment, or with such amendment
as the house transmitting the same agrees to,
the house in which the proposed law originated
may resolve that the same be referred to the
direct determination of the people.
If such last-mentioned resolution is passed, a
vote of the electors of the coinmonwealth as to
whether the proposed law, as last transmitted
as aforesaid, shall or shall not become law shall
be taken, unless in the meantime the house to
which it has been transmitted has passed the
same.
FRIDAY, 17 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
Commonwealth of Australia Bill-Communication from
Queensland-Commonwealth of Australia Bill.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
am.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
In Committee (consideration resumed from
16th September, vide page 709):
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
bly of New South Wales, cigain proposed :
Insert new clause to follow clause 56 :
57. (a.) If either house of parliament shall, in
two consecutive sessions of the same parliament,
with an interval of at least six weeks between,
pass and transmit to the other house forits concur-
rence therein any proposed law which such other
house fails to pass without amendment, within
thirty days after receiving the same, in the
second session, or within such period passes,
Such vote shall be taken in each state sepa-
rately, and if the proposed law is affirmed by a
majority of the population of the commonwealth,
it shall be presented to the governor-general for
the royal assent, as if it had been duly passed
by both houses of parliament, and on receiving
the royal assent it shall become law. If not
affirmed as aforesaid the proposed law shall not
become law, and shall not be again proposed for
a period of at least three years.
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [10•33]:
I move :
That after the word " If," in the proposed
new clause, the following new words be in-
serted: “the senate reject or fail to pass any
proposed law which has passed the house of
representatives, or pass the same with amend-
ments with which the house of representatives
will not agree, and if the governor-general should
on that account dissolve the house of represen-
tatives, and if, within six months after the said
dissolution the house of representatives again
..
1
3 D
710
Australia Bitz.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.
+
pass the said proposecl law in the same, or sub- position as a house representing state in-
stantially the same, form as before, and with
terests, and also as a check on legislation,
substantially the same objects, and the senate
again reject or fail to pass the said proposed law,
it is proper in this respect that it may re-
or pass the same with amendments with which
move-we hope will remove-efficiently
the house of representatives will not agree, the
obstacles that lie in the path of some of
governor-general may dissolve the senate and the
our friends who sincerely desire federa-
house of representatives, and thereupon all the tion. It is a great concession. It is one
members of both houses of the parliament shall
which some of us believe will be actually
vacate their seats.”
sufficient. At all events, it leaves entirely
The object of this amendment is to affirm
open anything further which those who
the principle that upon a difference be-
think that this is insufficient may desire to
tween the two houses which cannot other-
propose. With a view to test the principle
wise be solved, the sepate shall be liable
whether there shall be, under these con-
to dissolution in a certain event. Sub-
ditions, a dissolution of the senate as well
stantially it is the provision in force in
as a dissolution of the house of represen-
South Australia; the phraseology is altered
tatives, I submit this amendment.
a little by an amendment moved at the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
Adelaide session by my hon, and learned
(Victoria) (10:48]: I am glad that my hon.
friend, Mr. Wise. I do not wish to argue and learned friend, Mr. Symon, appears
the matter. I only wish to say, as far as
to have come to the conclusion that sooner
the phraseology, or the drafting, or the
or later, with the view to settling disputes
form, is concerned, I do not submit this
between the two houses, there must be a
amendment to be finally affirmed. I move dissolution of the senate, as well as a dis-
the amendment with a view to affirm the
solution of the house of representatives:
principle that, in the event of the senate
The only difference between us is, that I
disagreeing with some measure sent up by
fail to see why, in the first instance, we
the house of representatives, and a disso-
should be called upon to penalise the house
lution taking place, and the house of repre- of representatives. If a dispute should
sentatives adhering to the measure which
arise, and the two houses, after having tried
has been so rejected by the senate, or so
every mode of conciliation, and all the con-
amended that the house of representatives ferences which we know in our various
disapprove of it, if the senate still refuses
parliaments are adopted to settle disputes,
to give way, then a dissolution shall take
should fail to settle the dispute, why
place of both the senate and the house of
should we then select one of the houses,
representatives. So long as the Committee
which in all probability is not to blame,
affirms the principle that there shall be,
or may not be to blame, and compel that
at any rate, one safety-valve, one method
house to go to the country, to incur all
of securing cohesion between the two
the expense and trouble that members in-
houses, then the form of it may be dealt dividually will have to incur, and again come
with and adjusted afterwards. It is, as back and resort to this mode of procedure!
the right hon. gentleman, Mr. Reid, put After having penalised the one house, if
it yesterday, a very great concession ; that house comes back with the voice of
it may be, as he added, a proper concession
the country behind it, the senate has
as well. At any rate, there are some of us not to carry out that voice, but both
who feel that, whether consistent or not houses are again to be sent to the country.
with the continuity which we are seeking That is, assuming that the senate has come
to preserve in the senate, and with its back with the voice of the country behind
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
.711
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australici Bill.
it, it has again to be penalised, and the The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
members are again to be put to all the [10:44]: The question before us is as much
trouble and expense of a general election one of procedure as of anything else—that
throughout the large areas which they have is to say of the order in which the pro-
to contest. Surely that is not fair or rea- posals are to be taken. The proposal of
sonable : it is not just to the house of re- the hon, member, Mr. Walker, practically
presentatives, and it is holding, practically, embodies one of the suggestions which
a threat over the house that if they do not have been indorsed by the Victorian Par-
agree to the senate's proposals they have liament; but in moving it now he may
to go to the country. They have to take imperil the chances of support which it
all the risk of coming back, and after they might receive if the other amendment
have come back they will have to take were disposed of. Some of those who
the risk of going a second time. I think are in favour of the amendinent he is
the proposal is not a reasonable one so far proposing may at the same time be un-
as it penalises the house of representatives willing to vote against the whole of the
in the first instance, and I trust the Con- proposal of the hon. member, Mr. Symon,
vention will agree to the provision that if and by that means the hon, member, Mr.
the two chambers cannot agree, and fail, Walker, will not obtain all the votes of
after having made every effort, to come to
those who would separately support his
a satisfactory arrangement, then the two proposition. I feel somewhat at a loss
chambers at the same time shall go to how to suggest a better method of pro-
their respective constituents and obtain the cedure, unless it is understood that if we
voice of the country as well as they possi- negative Mr. Symon's clause, we should
bly can obtain it. Holding these views, and then be free to consider something which
believing a double dissolution in the first might very closely approximate to his
instance will, in nine cases out of ten, be
clause in the form submitted by our par-
the mode of settling the dispute, I am will-
liament. I take it, therefore, that if the
ing to support that portion of the proposal;
hon. member, Mr. Symon, intends to press
but I cannot see my way to ask the Con-
his amendment, we had better deal with it
vention to support the suggestion that, in
as a whole, and those who object to it on
the first instance, the house of representa-
any ground should vote against it, know-
tives which may be in the right, should
ing when they do so that they are not pre-
be penalised, without at the same time
cluded from adopting some other form of
penalising the other house.
the proposal, any variation being sufficient
under the circumstances to justify its being
The CHAIRMAN : Does the right hon.
considered as in order. If we endeavour
gentleman move an amendment?
to amend the proposal of the hon. mem-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No; ber, Mr. Symon, we shall inevitably lose
I shall vote against the addition to the votes for the various amendments which
new clause.
may be proposed. If we negative his pro-
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales) posal, we shall practically have a clear field
[10:42] : I move :
to deal with other suggestions on their
That the amendment be amended by the omis-
merits.
sion of the words "and the house of representa-
Mr. WAIKER : With the permission of
tives, and thereupon all the members of both the Committee, I will withdraw my amend-
houses of the parliament shall vacate their seats."
ment at the present time.
That carries out the wishes of the Premier Amendment on the amendment, by
of Victoria.
leave, withdrawn,
712
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.)
1
The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria) a later stage within which it is expected the
[10:46]: I do not propose to discuss the senate will pass a measure, is, in my opinion,
suggestion of the hon, member, Mr. Symon, altogether too short. Then, again, it will
because my remarks would be mainly a be advisable to amend the paragraph for
repetition of those advanced by the Pre- the purpose of excluding from its operation
mier of Victoria ; but I would point out. laws containing proposals for the alter-
that even the hon. member could scarcely ation of the constitution, because they are
say that after an appeal had been made to separately dealt with. Then I think that
the whole of the electors by means of a dis- if that were done, and the last part of the
solution of the house of representatives, clause “the provisions of the following
and the electors had given a distinct ver- sections of this part shall apply" were
dict on the question submitted to them, struck out, and there were substituted the
and had returned an absolute majority to words " the governor-general may dissolve
the new house in favour of the course pro- both houses of parliament," the paragraph,
posed, it would be reasonable six months as so amended, might possibly express the
afterwards to send the same members back will of the Committee.
to the same electors to ask the same ques- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Ought
tion.
not sub-clause b to come in ?
Mr. SYMON: That was Mr. Walker's
The Hon. E. BARTON : Perhaps it
amendment!
ought, and the other matter after that.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not at all;
he provides for only one dissolution of
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : What
I
each house. You propose to put the saine
propose to do is to pass sub-clauses a and
question twice to the same people, and to
b, and then to insert a sub-clause provid-
penalise the representatives who endeavour ing for a double dissolution. That is the
to give effect to the popular verdict. It
simpler way
The Hon. E. BARTON: We must all
appears to me to be most inconsistent and
indefensible in that respect.
recollect that in passing the matter in that
I
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South shape, the actual form will be recast.
Wales) [10:48]: I think I shall be com-
should like to indicate that that is the
pelled, unless I hear good reason to the
course which I favour, and if the Com-
contrary, to vote against the proposal on
mittee go that far it will be simply a ques-
the grounds stated by the Premier of Vic-
tion whether they will proceed to other
toria. If there is to be a dissolution ap-
measures.
plicable to the senate, as well as to the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria
house of representatives, I take it that the [1049]: I quite agree with the hon. mem-
most convenient and the least expensive ber, Mr. Barton, that the question of six
way, and the way best calculated to bring weeks or thirty days is merely a matter of
about an agreement, is to dissolve both detail. If we agree on principle I do not
bodies at the same time. If the amend-
think there will be much difficulty in agree-
ment does not find acceptance, it will be ing upon the mere lapse of time which is
necessary to amend the paragraph of the to take place, provided, of course, it is not
proposed new clause, because I take it that extravagantly long or inordinately short.
an interval of six weeks between two ses- If we adopt the double dissolution in the
sions might be regarded by the Committee first instance, no doubt the observation of
as being, perhaps, rather short. In the the hon. member, Mr. Barton, made, will
same way the mention of the thirty days at apply to the following sub-clause, which
Coininonwealth of
713
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
might conveniently come out. But that longer; but upon this question there is
also is a matter of detail. On the main such an erident majority against the pro-
question I think, if I may be permitted to posal that I do not think we need occupy
say so without offence, that we should be time by discussing it further.
taking up the time of bon. members need- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
lessly if we attempted to discuss the merits (South Australia) [10:54] : I suggest that
of an alternative dissolution, because I think this clause should not be pressed in its
a majority of the Convention has already present form. Of course the idea is that,
expressed its mind that that would be un- by a double dissolution, we shall ascertain
satisfactory. I think it must be plain that whether or not the houses are in touch
it would not be acceptable to the Conven- with their constituencies. But what does
tion to propose that in case of a dispute be- this clause really propose? It undoubtedly
tween the two chambers it should always proceeds upon the assumption that the
be assumed that one of the two chambers doubt will invariably affect the house of
is wrong. Why should it be so assumed?
representatives, and that it ought to be
If this proposal were to say that no matter sent to its constituencies first. I put it
where the proposed bill comes from, no
that the constitution of the two cbam-
matter what may be its merits, no matter bers suggests an altogether different con-
what may be the unofficial expression of clusion. As regards the senate, one half
public opinion, no matter how the par- retires every three years; but the whole
ticular house proposing the bill—whether is not submitted to the verdict of popu-
the senate or the house of representatives lar opinion except after the lapse of six
-may be supported by the general colour years. What is the case with the house of
of public opinion outside, it must always representatives? The whole of the house
be one particular house which must go to has to go to the people every three years.
the country, I say that that is not fair, Under these circumstances is there not a
An Hon. MEMBER: One house is elected prima facie case in favour of the probability
for six years!
of the house of representatives being more
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The other house closely in touch with the constituencies
is elected for three years. Now, I cannot than is the senate? There might be a differ-
conceive of any element of justice in say-
ence between the senate and the house of
ing that one particular house should be representatives in the first session of the
penalised. If you say that a dissolution house of representatives. The house of re-
will be an inducement to the house of re- presentatives is hot from the country, but
presentatives not to press its claims too the senate has been subjected to nosuch test.
strongly, surely it is equally fair to say Yet what is the proposal ? Not that the
that the fear of a dissolution will induce house of representatives should be regarded
the senate not to press its objections too as representing public opinion under the
closely. If there is to be a means of con- circumstances, but that it should be sent
ciliation, let the conciliation be reciprocal. again to the country while the senate
Now, I do strongly urge upon my hon. stands idly by, laughing, you might al-
friends that they should come to some de- most say, at the inconvenience to which
cision upon this question as soon as pos- it has subjected the other house. Then,
sible. We have to deal with a good many
when the house of representatives comes
other matters to-day--many of them im- back again, reinforced by public opinion,
portant matters—and when we reach sonie not only the senate, but both houses, are
of them, no doubt, the debate will be sent to the country. Practically there are
1
1
1
714
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
three references to the country by the The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[10:58]:
house of representatives before an expres- I hope that the members of the Committee
sion of popular opinion is secured as to will be moderate this morning, and not
the action of the senate. Now, it seems show such a disposition to drive members
to me that that is monstrous.
like myself beyond that which we consider
An HON. MEMBER: It is an invitation reasonable. I yesterday voted for some
to obstruction !
remedy for deadlocks, not because I think
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : It there is any necessity for it at all
is not only an invitation to obstruction, An Hon. MEMBER: They are rather good
but it amounts to an immunity from the things !
results which ought to accrue from ob- The Hon. S. FRASER: I do not say
struction. I think it is highly undesirable that, but I say that the British communi-
that either house-I do not care which it ties all over the world have got on remark-
is-should have the right of sending the ably well without any such provision. I
other to the country, and submitting it to have travelled all over the world several
the verdict of popular opinion without times, and I have seen no countries which
submitting its own conduct to that verdict have made similar progress to that made by
at the same time. I think we should adopt British self-governing communities under
a provision under which, if there be a sub- our existing constitutional forms. I then
stantial dispute, the question should be asked myself, and I submit it to this Con-
decided by the constituencies as to the vention, what is the necessity for any sud-
conduct of both houses, and not of one of den and foreign change? I am prepared,
them. As to this amendment, it is, I pre- as the representative of one of the five
sume, intended to be based upon the South colonies which passed the enabling bill, to
Australian provision ; but in one impor- go beyond my own views in deference to
tant particular it does not, if I recollect the wishes of the mother colony; but I
rightly, and I am pretty sure I do, follow deny that there is any necessity, so far as
that provision, because it is here provided our own colony is concerned, to go beyond
that the first dissolution of the house of the present bill. I believe that the other
representatives must be a penal one on members of the Convention would also be
account of a difference with the senate. prepared to accept the present bill. I say
There is no such provision in our consti- so unhesitatingly, and I believe that I
tution.
know the opinion of the people of our
Mr. SYMON : No; that is taken from the colonies just as well as the average man,
amendment on the paper; but we can or the average delegate, if you like the
strike that portion out !
word better. Why should we, therefore, go
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: in for some extreme revolutionary change?
That removes one objection. No doubt My hon. and learned friend, the Attorney-
the first part ought to be struck out, but General of Victoria, laughs. In this draft
the latter part ought also to be struck bill there are provisions for amending the
out; and, since there is very little health constitution. If the federal parliament
left in the middle of the clause, I sug- and the people of the united colonies should
gest that it would be more convenient, if determine in favour of having some further
we were to accept the suggestion of our provisions for enforcing their wishes, they
right hon. friend, Sir George Turner, and could obtain a remedy by means of a bill
negative it, in order that we may proceed amending the corístitution. Therefore, I
to the consideration of the other proposals. say, why go to extremes at one jump?
[The Right IIon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 715
There is no necessity for it. Something be referring the bill to people who knew
has been said about penalising one house. little or nothing about the matter that was
It is not penalising one house. The senate referred to them.
is not intended to be an active house like An Hon. MEMBER : Ignorance of the
the house of representatives. It is only people !
created for the purpose of delaying hasty The Hon. S. FRASER: All my political
legislation. The upper house never does life I have been as willing to go upon any
stand in the way of recording the opinion platform as any man. I have never feared
of the people when those opinions are defi- going upon any platform when I thought
nitely known beyond question. It has I was in the right, and I have always be-
never done so in the old country. It has lieved in my political opinions. They may
never done so in any of the colonies, in be conservative. I do not think so. At
Australia or in Canada. If we were estab- any rate, I am prepared to go upon any
lishing a senate not subject to dissolution platform and argue with any other can-
--the same as the House of Lords and the didate. I do not believe in the ignor-
Senate in the Dominion of Canada, and ance of the people. I say that the bulk
the same as the Upper House in this colony, of mankind, who have to labour in order
Queensland, and Western Australia-I to earn their living, have not the same
would admit that there was some justifi- opportunities of becoming well versed in
cation for the course now proposed. politics as a politician, or as an educated
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It man who has ample time at his disposal
would not be necessary then, because there to post himself in such matters. It is
is power to add to the numbers.
not the honesty of the bulk of the people
The Hon. S. FRASER: That
power
is that most men have a fear of-they have
seldom used. History shows that it has no fear of that. The working man, the
never been used more than once, I think, stone-breaker, is as honest and fair as
in any British country-once in New South the ruler of the country. They are all
Wales. That supports my argument that alike in that respect ; but will hon. mem-
there is no necessity for this drastic legis- bers tell me that the people of Greece, the
lation.
other day, when they forced their Govern-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Does the hon. ment to go to war, were well posted up ?
member say that the lower house must The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Stick to
prevail ?
Australia !
The Hon. S. FRASER: I do not say The Hon. S. FRASER: Other gentle-
that the lower house must prevail; but I men have gone into many questions of
say that a bill that was sent up to the politics. I have just as much faith in tho
senate might be a bill affecting only a people of Australia, or any British colony,
small section of the community. It might as any other member of the Convention
not be a bill that affected the whole com- has, and that interjection is only idle
munity at all directly. It might affect words. We are all here to do the best we
only the butter industry, or the farmer, can for Australia, and I hope that we will
or it might exclusively affect the miner, do what is right. It is admitted that this
or perhaps only a section of the miners. bill is the most liberal, the freest-you
It might be a butter export bill--a bill might say the most radical—bill ever pro-
affecting only a section of the people of the posed. Let us be satisfied. Let us not go
country. What would the town citizens to extremes; because, if we do go to ex-
know about a bill like that? You would tremes, it is quite possible the bill might
716
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
be rejected on that account. I will go be- would not agree to the other proposal is
yond my own personal predilections, and this : The ministry of the day, although
support the amendment proposed by my its members might have the interests of
hon. friend, Mr. Symon. I will agree not country at heart, might be altogether
to subject the house of representatives to wrong in its views as to the efficacy or ad-
a second dissolution—I will agree to that vantage of a proposed course of action, and
so far as to say that, when the house of would probably select a time when the
representatives has been subjected to a passions of the people were aroused, and
dissolution, it should not be penalised a perhaps inflame those passions and try to
second time. I maintain that the senate work up an inflammatory view of matters
would not be obdurate, even the first time, in order to have their proposal accepted.
because the senate, knowing full well that There may be no doubt about the wisdom
they had to appear before their constitu- of sending back to the constituencies the
ents every three years—possibly in much members of the house of representatives ;
less time, on account of the trouble not aris- but I think that sufficient time should be
ing at the furthermost limit of the periode allowed to elapse to obtain the deliberate
would, of course, bow to public opinion, as and matured opinions of the people before
expressed by either the rejection or the re- the dissolution of the senate. After such
election of members to the house of repre- a time had elapsed, I would not hesitate to
sentatives. Therefore, they, as wise men, dissolve the senate.
should not make themselves subject to a dis- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
solution at all. There would then only be (Western Australia) (11.13]: I would sug-
one dissolution, namely, that of the house gest to the hon. and learned member, Mr.
of representatives. In my opinion, that is Symon, that he should leave out the last
how the system would work out. I believe few words of his amendment, which make
that; on the score of economy, and for it compulsory for both houses to be sent to
many other reasons, it is not necessary to the country. If the hon. and learned mem-
subject the senate to a dissolution at the berdesires to make provision for the sending
time that the house of representatives is of both houses to the country, I would sug-
dissolved. That would be coercion, and, gest that heshould make that proposal sepa-
in my opinion, such a course is neither rately instead of mixing it up with the
warranted nor necessary, and would pro- provisions contained in the earlier part of
bably cause weak members of the senate his amendment. I am altogether in favour
to do an injustice to their colonies, and to of the proposal brought forward by the
their views, because they would not be hon, and learned member, and I should be
independent enough to give a disinterested glad to give it every support. Yesterday,
vote upon tie matter referred to them. I. we devoted the whole day to the discussion
hope that, for these reasons, the Commit- of the question whether it was necessary
tee will not drive hon. members to vote to provide any means for preventing dead-
against unreasonable proposals.
locks, and we decided by a large majority
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Sup- that some provision was necessary.
Al-
pose that after the house of. representatives though I voted in the minority upon that
is dissolved the senate still refuses to pass question, I now desire to give the best
the bill!
attention I can to providing means for
The Hon. S. FRASER : No; I would preventing deadlocks. I do not desire to
then agree that the senate should be sub- say anything in the way of re-opening the
ject to a dissolution. The reason why I debate, because I take it that the Commit-
The Hon. S. Fraser,
Commonu:ealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 717
tee has decided the question; but Imust say forgotten, however, that at the present time
that there seemed to be a decided impression the various colonies are independent states,
in the minds of very many hon. members and we are not going to enter into any
yesterday that the senate was to be estab- partnership unless our future position as a
lished only to protect state rights and state state is guaranteed. To return, however,
interests. I do not think that that is so. to the point at issue. Having decided
If that were our only intention there that means are to be provided for the pre-
would be no necessity for upper houses in vention of deadlocks, the question arises :
the various colonial legislatures, because What is the simplest, the best, and the
there are no state rights to be conserved most effective means that we can adopt ?
in any of the colonies. I take it that we The suggestion of the Right Hon. Sir
are now erecting the senate, not only for George Turner that, in case of deadlocks,
the protection of state interests, but also both houses should be at once sent to
to provide a revising and controlling force their constituents has, at first sight, a
in connection with legislation generally good deal to commend it. Under ordinary
If that is not so, we do not want upper circumstances, if two representative bodies
houses in any of the colonies. All that disagreed, the solution of the difficulty
we want is one chamber, having a free which would occur to most men would be
hand to do what it likes in the manage-
to send them back to those whom they re-
ment of the affairs of the country. I think present, and let them decide the dispute.
that those who are so anxious to reduce But would that be a wise provision to
and weaken the senate are those who are make in the constitution which we are now
opposed to upper houses altogether. I framing?
I framing? At the time of the dispute,
cannot help feeling, from the remarks of there may be a great deal of popular ex-
the President, amongst others, that he can- citement and clamour, and all sorts of in-
not forget that for many years he has been fluences might be at work, and is it likely
in controversy with the Upper House of that we should obtain the result we are
his own colony, and he cannot believe that aiming at if we sent back the two legisla-
the upper house that we are erecting will tive bodies to their constituents in the
not be similar to that which exists in South midst of that clamour and excitement ?
Australia.
The chances are that both sides would be
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: We inflamed, and would stick to their colours,
have had a better upper house in South sending back again to the two houses the
Australia than they have had in a great persons who represented them there before,
many other places !
and who, it would be said and thought,
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : were defending the interests of the colonies
I cannot help feeling that the right hon. they represented. The chances are that.
member does not like the Upper House in the members of the senate, when they went
his own colony.
back to their own colonies, and told their
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Yes, he does ! electors that they had stood out to pre-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: serve their rights and interests, would be
Then he has a very queer way of showing returned to again oppose the particular mea-
it. I believe that he has rather a dislike sure which had been the cause of the dis-
to upper houses generally, and is of the pute. In nine cases out of ten, the house hav-
opinion that except to protect state rights ing the greatest power will be the aggressor.
it would be better to have only one house Every one knows that no case has arisen
under this constitution. It must not be in Australia, nor anywhere else, in which
718
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
the upper house has been the aggressor, sures it is desired should become law. If .
forcing upon the lower house some mea- you find the leader of a government enter-
sure of which it disapproved, and thereby taining these strong feelings, do you think
causing a constitutional disturbance. We he will rest without taking the verdict of
know that such a thing has never hap- the country upon an important measure at
pened, and never will happen. If any once in the full blaze of excitement ? He
conflict occurs in the commonwealth in will at once dissolve both houses and go
the future it will be caused by the house of to the country. Is that the sort of house
representatives trying to coerce the senate. we wish to erect here? This senate, this
I think it is only reasonable that the house stable house—this house almost immovable
which causes the trouble-in my belief it throughout all the colonies and the em-
will be the house of representatives- pire—is this the sort of senate which you .
should
go to the country. After a limited desire to build up? Do you desire that at
time, say, six months or so, having returned any moment, at the will of the Prime
from the country with a fresh mandate, Minister, he shall have power, not only
with the weight of that mandate pressing
to dissolve one house but to send the
upon the upper house, if the upper house whole parliament to the country? I do
still maintains the position it formerly not think that is what we want to build
took up, and refuses to give way, I then up here. We want to have a stable senate.
am willing to send that house to the coun- The senate, in my opinion, should be in-
try. Time will have elapsed—six months movable ; but the Convention decided yes-
or more people will have had time to terday that that was not to be so. We are
work off their angry passions—at any rate desirous of framing something that wehave
their excitement-they will have had time not got'at the present time. Our legislative
to cool down, and the second election will councils in all these colonies, with the ex-
be carried on under far different circum- ception of South Australia, cannot be dis-
stances as to excitement compared with solved, and if we cannot get a measure
those of the original election.
through the upper house we have to put
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: What up with it. We can certainly dissolve the
second election does the hon. member lower house, but that is not often taken
mean?
advantage of, and, furthermore, it is not
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: necessary. We have the highest consti-
The senate should be dissolved in the tutional authorities in the world telling
second instance. It seems to me that that us that the lower house does not exist at
plan would make the house of representa-
the will of the upper house, and that there
tives much more careful, much less eager is no necessity, no obligation to dissolve the
to enter into conflict than it would be house of assembly because it is not possible
under other circumstances. We know to carry a measure through the upper
that no one likes to be beaten. If one house. We have heard a great deal about
has an important measure to carry through the referendum, and, I dare say, we shall
parliament, his whole reputation perhaps hear a great deal more during the debate
may be mixed up with that measure, and to-day; but I think that an election of
he is sure to be desirous that it should the senate is as close an approach to a
become the law of the country. Every- referendum under this bill as it is possible
one of us who has had anything to do with to get. It is really a referendum at every
leading legislative assemblies knows how election. Every time we have an election
closely one associates oneself with the mea- of the senate we appeal to the whole body
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
719
[17 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
of the people in the nation, and it is not an may be acceptable to the Convention as a
election such as occurs when the house of whole. But I should like to ask whether
representatives is elected. That house is there is any necessity for a concrete scheine
elected by various constituencies. The at all? I take it that the main point at
election is affected by all sorts of local pre- issue is the question of the dissolution of
judices and feelings, and is not really an the senate. At the beginning of our pro-
appeal to the whole body of the electors. ceedings in Adelaide, very few of us would
On the other hand, the first election or any have imagined, probably, that such a pro-
election of the senate, will be to all intents posal as this could have been brought for-
and purposes a referendum. Ishould say to ward with any chance of being carried.
hon. members, and to all those who are de- But on the principle which most of us
sirous of making the senate a weak, and,
have laid down that any ground of settling
I might even say, a discredited body, as it differences between the two houses should
would be unless it were strong, that there be one of a character that would give time
cannot be real federation unless the federa- to the people to think, which would give
tion applies to the whole of Australia. We every possibility for the fullest considera-
have had to carry on our deliberations tion of public opinion, we have come to
without the assistance of one great colony; the conclusion that, while we might think
but I venture to think that a federation the constitution could be left entirely to
which we might create without that great its own working, this proposal to dis-
country would not be the real federation solve the senate is on the whole the best,
which we all so much desire. I would urge and at any rate the first stage of the ques-
that it should be the desire of those who tion. I should be perfectly satisfied, as
come from the larger colonies not to do far as I am concerned, to simply leave in
anything which will prevent a real federa- this constitution the power to the gover-
tion of Australia taking place. There have nor-general to dissolve the senate as well
been a great many changes since 1891 in as the house of representatives.
this bill. There have been changes even The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
since the beginning of this Convention; Together!
but all those changes have been in the Mr. MCMILLAN: No, I am coming to
direction of reducing the power and influ- that point. Here we are, probably, on the
ence of the states and the states house. I verge of making another rigid arrangement
accept the verdict of this House with regard which may not meet the circumstances of
to what was decided yesterday. I hope, the case.
Who can tell the variety of cir-
now that we have got so far, and a means cumstances which may bring about a dead-
is to be provided for preventing deadlocks, lock? I will give an illustration of a prac-
that we shall make that plan as simple as tical character. Suppose the house of re-
possible, and that the means provided shall presentatives has lived for a period of two
not be such as can be too easily availed years and nine months, and is within three
of.
months of an absolutely necessary dissolu-
Mr. McMILLAN (New South Wales) tion, and suppose some burning question
[11.28]: I rise at this stage of the debate arises in which it seems impossible at the
only to say a word or two. I take it that moment to have an agreement between
many of us, those of us who are not pos- the two houses-what an absurd thing it
sessed of any great degree of originality, would be, three months before a general
are waiting for some concrete scheme with dissolution was to come about, to have a
regard to a dissolution of the senate that penal dissolution of the senate!
720
Australia Bill.
Commonwealihi of
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That conditions, want to make hard and fast
is provided for in the Victorian sugges- rules to carry out some democratic shib-
tion; the interval must be more than six boleth.
months !
Mr. HIGGINS : Who wants to ?
Mr. SYMON : This amendment does not Mr, MCMILLAN : I do not pretend to
do what the hon. member fears!
have any strong opinion on the subject. I
Mr. MCMILLAN: I know, and I am do not pretend to have any original views
only now referring to the desire of some
of my own.
I simply rise at this nioment
hon. members to make a double dissolution to put before the Convention the question
under all circumstances. We want a con-
whether it would not be better simply to
stitution that will work with the least pos-
leave in the constitution power to the
sible friction and the least possible expen- governor-general, through his executive,
diture. Then, again, we know that every to dissolve either house at any time wh
three years, not necessarily at the time of certain circumstances arose.
the dissolution of the house of representa- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Would
tives, half of the senate must retire for re- not that put the senate at the mercy of the
election. Suppose one of these burning house of representatives?
questions arose within a month or two of Mr. MOMILLAN: Not at all. Because
the time when one-half the senate would, we must take it for granted, as I take it
under ordinary circumstances, retire, would for granted, in everything we do that we
there then be a necessity for a dissolution are dealing with a responsible government
of both houses ? Do not let us have any- of a patriotic character, responsible to the
thing that will preclude that proceeding in people of the country and to public opinion.
which men of common-senseand not lunatics I hold that this dissolution is intended to
would try to arrange their difficulties on be more of the character of a deterrent,
patriotic principles. I do not intend to than that it should be adopted with any
refer to its machinery, but if ever there expectation that it will ever be put into
was a constitution which was a model of force.
simplicity, which laid down principles and The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : The
left details to be worked out according moral effect !
to the circumstances, it is the American Mr. MCMILLAN :· The moral effect.
Constitution ---one of the simplest and Who is to judge when matters have come
noblest instruments for a constitution in to such an extreme that a deadlock has
the world.
practically supervened ? It must be the
An Hon. MEMBER : The stiffest!
executive government, who are responsible
Mr. MCMILLAN: It may be the stiffest, for the management of affairs. It seems
but we do not intend this constitution to to me, therefore, that it would be wise not
be the stiffest in that sense. I am making to make any hard and fast rules for the
a proposal to do away with the rigidity. dissolution of both houses under all cir-
I have been surprised in this Convention cumstances when a deadlock seemed to in-
to find that so many of the extreme demo- tervene. In my opinion that would be a
crats-if I may call them so--who point very evil proposition. It would tie you
to the rigidity of the American Consti- 'down at times to take a course which
tution as a bar to the progress of the would be utterly inconsistent with a re-
people, instead of leaving the parliament gard to public convenience. As I said
and the executive directly responsible to before, my own view of the case would be
he people to act according to the varying simply to leave that power of dissolving
[Mr. McMillan.
Commirrevealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
721
1
the senate as a co-ordinate power with that of representatives under this amendment,
of dissolving the house of representatives, and the house of representatives, whether
and leave the circumstances themselves to on that particular account or generally,
decide on what occasion it ought to be acting, in its belief, on the strength of
carried into effect.
public opinion, passed the measure again,
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That it should have the same effect as though
is a larger power than we are asking for there was a dissolution specially for that
now !
purpose.
Mr. McMILLAN: I do not mind giv- The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
ing the larger power, because you must South Wales [11:38]: The suggestion for
recollect this : that you must deal with a the omission of the concluding words no
question of this kind in view of the prin- doubt makes this amendment less objec-
ciples you have laid down in your govern- tionable. But I cannot agree with my
mental machinery. We have laid down hon. friend, Mr. Howe, that when once
the principle that this house is to repre- those words are omitted the task becomes
sent the continuity of national life ; that so simple that we shall immediately go to
it is to have six years of existence, and a division. I should like to point out-
that one half must retire at certain periods. anditis surprising to me that it has not been
Those principles being laid down, any go- seen before clearly and easily—the utter
vernment--and I am willing to trust this absurdity of the proposal of the hon. and
federal government to that extent—ought learned member, Mr. Symon. I should
to feel that to destroy, or attempt to in- like to take advantage of the speech of the
terfere with, the continuity of that house, Right Hon. Sir John Forrest, to point out
would be to take a step of the very gravest the utterly loose ideas which seem still to
responsibility. However, under no cir- prevail in certain quarters with reference
cumstances, speaking personally, would I to this particular project upon which we
vote for such a drastic arrangement as the are engaged. The right hon. gentleman
dissolution of the two houses at the same speaks of seeing that the independence of
time?
the states shall be guaranteed. If you
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [11:37]: enter into a federation, how can you guar-
In order to disentangle the real question antee the independence of each state ?
of substance from the rest of this amend- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : We
ment, I desire to move the omission of the do not want to be taken in body and soul;
words at the end, to which the Right Hon. we do not want to be unified !
Sir John Forrest has just called attention, The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is
namely, those involving a second dissolu- the trouble with us that we cannot get
tion of the house of representatives. unified in some way or other; we are all
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Then we need discord. That is one of the difficulties in
not talk any more about it.
the way of hon. gentlemen representing the
to a division at once !
smaller states. No matter how small the
Mr. SYMON: What the hon. and state may happen to be, the one thing they
learned member, Mr. Deakin, and my right look for is a sort of constitution which will
hon. friend, Sir John Forrest, said, has guarantee their independence. They forget
satisfied me that that would be improper. that in this federation the larger states
I wish also to eliminate the words " might have an interest in the same direc-
that account” in the eighth line ; so that tion, and want their independence guaran-
if there was a dissolution of the house teed.
We can go
on
722
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
The great
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: It turning my back on the Convention when
is of no use to misrepresent me. I did not I simply had, from the geographic absolute
mean that at all, and the hon. member necessity of the position, to turn my back
knows very well I did not !
on someone unless I stood on the wall. I
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Indeed did not complain of these pleasantries, be-
I do not. What did the hon. member cause we all indulge in them occasionally,
mean –because I will accept his own view and when they come we ought to take them
of what he meant. I do not want to take in good humour; so that I hope my hon.
a view opposite to his own,
friend will not think that in any interrup-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : He meant what tion I made yesterday I wished in any
the hon. member told us yesterday, that way to affront him. I assure the hon.
the national voice must not drown the gentleman that I took down his words as
voice of the states.
he spoke "unless our independence is
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I always guaranteed.” We ought to clear up mis-
find it better that a man should explain apprehensions of this kind. If we come
himself than that he should have a volun- into this federation, we must all lose a
teered deputy. Perhaps my hon. friend portion of our independence-every man
will tell me what he meant ?
in the states, every state.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I trouble between us at this moment is to
do not want to interrupt the hon. mem-
endeavour to hit a line which will seem to
ber. I had an example yesterday of the act fairly by us all in our differing circum-
way in which the hon. member treats stances when we do give up our independ-
interruptions.
ence in respect of the subjects of this con-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am stitution. But we must all give something
very sorry that my hon, friend should up, and the gentlemen who represent the
have taken anything I said in that way.
smaller states--and when I
say
the
I am sure I stood some rather severe and smaller states, you know I mean the states
unjust remarks yesterday without saying with the smaller populations-must not
very much. Could a greater insult be quarrel with us when we are justas earnestas
offered to a member of this Convention themselves in endeavouring to secure that
than was offered to me yesterday, when it the rights of the larger populations shall
was stated that I was addressing people be respected in this constitution, and
outside instead of addressing those here? unless those who represent the larger popu-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I lations faithfully and frankly express the
did not say that !
interests of those people in this Conven-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It does tion, I do not know where else they ought
not interfere with the friendliness and to be expressed. This is the proper place in
courtesy of my hon. and learned friend, which to express them, and we save our-
Sir John Downer, and I do not allow such selves infinite and useless labour if we
matters to interfere. , I might easily have proceed on these lines. I do not accuse
retorted that it was my duty, in express- gentlemen representing the smaller states,
ing my own convictions, to introduce the when they utter sentiments which are
opinions of the people of New South Wales peculiarly provincial, of talking to their
to the notice of this Chamber, and that colonies. I quite understand that they
was really what I was doing. Then, again, must, to a great extent, safeguard those
I did not complain when my hon. friend, interests, and, small as a state may be,
Sir John Downer, complained that I was that there are interests there which are
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 723
a
So.
just as properly subject to careful safe- a dissolution of the house of representa-
guarding as the interests of the larger tives, which means that the whole question
populations of the commonwealth. But I is remitted to every elector in the com-
must ask this Convention, which is com- monwealth. The result of that election
posed of a majority of gentlemen repre- will show exactly what the public opinion
senting the smaller populations, to show is, not only of the commonwealth as
equal courtesy to us, when we are endea- commonwealth but also of the states as
vouring to put the views which commend states, and then six months after that-
themselves to the larger populations. Let The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Not necessarily
me show the utter absurdity of this pro- The states may be divided, you know,
posal of the representative of South Aus- by what we have done previously.
tralia. I mean the proposal as it was The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I am
amended-it was still more absurd as it speaking, of course, of the states as they
stood originally. There is a proposal that will exist at any time, no matter what the
if a conflict arise between the two houses, subdivision is, because the moment you
there may be a dissolution of the house subdivide you simply rearrange the elec-
of representatives, and then if after that toral boundaries; in fact, as far as the
dissolution, the difficulty still remains, there popular house is concerned, the subdivision
may be a dissolution of the senate. Well, would not necessarily involve any altera-
the project when two houses are in con- tion of the commonwealth electoral boun-
flict of cutting off the head of one, and daries except for the provision which we
leaving the other to live another six months put in, and which I opposed, that as nearly
to see what may turn up in the political as practicable the houses should be in the
world, does not commend itself to me as ratio of two to one.
That will involve a
a pattern of federal justice. What a most awkward and inconvenient arrange-
maimed and lame attempt this is to solve ment of all the commonwealth boundaries
some burning, perhaps most urgent, ques- when a subdivision takes place, and that.
tion, until the settlement of which the is one of the great disadvantages of the
whole commonwealth is thrown into a scheme. But for that a subdivision wouldi
state of the utmost confusion, say, on a simply mean a larger number of senators
tariff ! Now, we all know when questions without necessarily any alteration of the
affecting the tariff, say, a reconstruction commonwealth electoral boundaries. But.
of the tariff, especially of a federal tariff, my argument would not be affected by a
are before the parliament, all.the indus- subdivision. If the subdivision had been
trial interests of the country are thrown complete and the electoral boundaries re-
into a state of confusion, enormous loss arranged, then when the appeal to the com-
and inconvenience are caused to the busi- monwealth electors had taken place, inas-
ness community of any country whose much as the commonwealth electors will
fiscal policy is in a state of uncertainty be within certain defined boundaries whicle
and transition. Let us suppose that on will not overlap the state boundaries-
that burning question, affecting the daily probably no electoral boundary will be so
"interests of every man in Australia in a
constructed if it can be avoided as to have
most practical and important way, there half an electorate in one colony and half of
is a hopeless difficulty between the two it in another, I imagine. The more natural
houses. What sort of solution of such a course will be to follow the well-known
situation is this? Then let me sbow even lines of the different colonies. But even
a greater absurdity than that. There is if they overlapped, anyone would still
724
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
be easily able, once the house of repre- the house of representatives would leave
sentatives had been dissolved, and every the senate absolutely immovable, and
electorate-in the large electorates remem- we would then be in a state of things,
ber, not in the small ones; that is, in perhaps resembling this-and this is the
electorates containing 50,000 inhabitants sort of thing the people of the colonies
—had expressed its opinion on the subject are not likely to stand : the house of
of reference by the particular candidate representatives might, possibly, come into
elected, then the senate would be in this conflict with the senate on the tariff—and
very comfortable position. If the result of I know of no subject more likely to create
the appeal was to show that in this dispute a conflict than that. There is an appeal to
between the two houses the senate had a the people, as it is called, and a house of
majority of their own people behind them representatives is returned which shows
– that is, the majority in the senate, we will that 2,000,000 people in the larger colonies
say the senators, of three small states out --I have not the number of electors in
of five here represented say that the majo- each colony, strange to say ; I have it for
rity of the electors of their own states were two colonies, but not for five, and I must,
against them—there would be no trouble. therefore, go by population — cast their
The head of the wrong man would have votes in favour of the policy of the house
been cut off; but there would be no re- of representatives. In the smaller states
dress for him, because he would be gone; there are votes cast which show that on
and the other, the offending party—the that particular question, out of a total
house which had created the necessity for population, at present, of 670,000, 500,000
cutting off the head of the popular cham- vote in favour of the position of the senate,
ber—would quietly allow the measure to and that is taking a pretty high view. We
pass, and live on pcacefully and happily have thus this anomalous position : that
-ever after:
we have gone through what is substan-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : That is the price tially a farce. It is a farce to appeal to
we pay for responsible government ! the people if the people have not the power
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I know. to decide -- if, after an appeal has been
That is the price we are asked to pay for made, 2,000,000 say yes, and 500,000 say
what is called responsible government; no; and that “no” makes the senate im-
but that very expression shows that my movable, and enables them to stand to their
hon. friend is rather cloudy as to what re- position with the absolute certainty of
sponsible government is. The principle of
The terrors of dissolution nearly
responsible government is that it is sub- all disappear when you know beforehand
ject to the control of the representatives that you are going to be elected without
of the people. That is responsible govern-
The terror of a dissolution
ment, and the digression therefore will is the uncertainty which surrounds it.
scarcely apply. But if all the representa-
With this sword of a dissolution before
tives of the commonwealth were the sub- them, the senate know beforehand exactly
ject of appeal the result of that appeal how they stand. This sword hanging over
would be known to us all, and it would
them is a sort of comfortable arrange-
be seen whether a majority of the electors ment which is represented by the homely
in the smaller states favoured the one phrase, “Heads, I win ; tails, you lose.”
house or the other. If a majority of the That is the philosophy of this proposal.
electors in the smaller states favoured the If the senate find from the appeal to
view of the senate, all the dissolutions of the electors of the commonwealth that
success.
any trouble.
[The Right Hon. G. H, Reid.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 725
1
they are wrong, they are not punished ;. certainly dissolve the house which is against
they simply subside. If they find from it, and not the house which is for it. There-
an appeal to the commonwealth that, al- fore, out of justice to the senate, I think
though an enormous majority of the people it only fair that the ministry ought to dis-
say they are wrong, a sufficiently small solve both houses, and have them both
minority in three of the states say they sent before their constituents.
With re-
are right, they are still strong and immov- gard to the proposal of the Premier of
able, and if the sword falls upon them, Western Australia, I think the answer
they simply, by prolonging their opposi- of the Premier of New South Wales is ab-
tion to the result of the appeal to the solutely insurmountable.
That proposal
people, go back to the smaller states to simply makes the houses of representa-
receive the political honors accorded to tives a catspaw in order to pull the nuts
those who successfully vindicate the in- out of the fire. It simply allows the mem-
terests of their country.
That sort of bers of the senate to see by the voting in
arrangement, it seems to me, is one-sided, the different states which way the feeling
to say the least.
I will only, at pre- of their states is going, and they will know
sent, push these observations to one prac- exactly then as to whether it is or is not
tical point on this clause, and it is this: worth while for them to face a dissolution.
that if there is to be any pretence of fair- Considering that it is boasted that both
ness in applying this great arbitrament to the houses are based on the broadest fran-
the dissolution, the two houses must be chise, I can see no possible reason why
dissolved at the same time. Whatever the there should be a distinction between them.
constituencies, whatever the constitution, The only course will be, in fairness to both
whatever the safeguards gentlemen repre- houses, as they are both based on the suf-
senting the smaller states think right to frages of the people, and both claim to be
put in the constitution on this point, where representative, to dissolve both.
both have to appeal to the country to have The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria)
their difficulties settled, both must take [11:59]: I shall not obtrude myself on the
the risks of the situation, and that is fatal notice of the Committee for more than a
to the proposal of the hon. member.
few moments. I desire to say, and to em-
Proposed amendment, by leave, amended by phasise in the strongest possible manner,
leaving out, in line S, on that account,” and
that if we are to have federation at all it
by inserting after “representatives,” in line 10,
by an absolute majority," and by leaving out
must be on the lines common to all. This
all the words after “senate,” line 18.
question was debated at great length at
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) (11:57]: I Adelaide, and I thought we had arrived
should like to advert to a former proposal at some kind of finality; but it seems that
of the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, who we are now rediscussing the whole matter,
said that we ought not to do anything and all kinds of novel and dangerous pro-
rigid, and that it should be optional to dis- posals are being submitted to us, to which
solve both houses or one.
I was struck the majority of the Convention cannot
with that suggestion at the time. Never- agree. I was very much surprised, after
theless I think that it would amount to the efforts of the Attorney-General of Vic-
a scourge upon the senate. Supposing toria, and after his able advocacy of the
there is a ministry which has a majority in referendum, that he failed to bring for-
the house of representatives, and supposing ward a scheme for the adoption of this
that ministry to be opposed in the senate, novel proposal, based on wider grounds
if that ministry had the option, it would than those which he has submitted. If
3 E
726
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
hon, memberslook at what he has proposed, The CHAIRMAN : A general discussion
they will find that, with the exception upon the whole question took place on
of one or two, the questions referred to paragraph 1. That general discussion
are of the most trivial nature. It is having taken place, I must now ask hon.
proposed to revolutionise the whole of the members to confine their remarks to the
government of the Australian colonies, and amendment before them, which is that of
to introduce a system which has no accept-
a double dissolution. The proposal con-
ance in any Anglo-Saxon community in the tains no reference to the referendum.
world. What does the referendum mean? The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I cheer-
The effect of the referendum will be to fully bow to the Chairman's ruling. I have
emasculate our parliament, because if the no wish to take up the time of the Con-
provision be carried in its entirety, the vention unnecessarily; but I think I right
parliament will selfishly fall back on the be excused for having transgresseche
referendum as absolving them from any ordinary rules of debate by referring to
responsibility for their action.
remarks which have accompanied the pro-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : If they posal in its general aspect. I am aware
can resort to the referendum only after a that for the present the referendum has
dissolution, that is not likely to be the case! been dealt with, and I will, therefore,
The Hon. Sir W, A, ZEAL: I do not postpone any remarks which I may have
think the proposal for the referendum is to make as to that proposal. The proposal
one which the Australian colonies will of the hon. member, Mr. Symon, is one
accept. On the other hand, I think the with which I cordially agree. It is based,
proposal before us is one of the most I understand, upon the experience of South
liberal ever submitted to intelligent elec- Australia, and if South Australia, repre-
tors. It is, if anything, of too democratic sented as she is by such a doughty champion
a character. However, I am quite willing as our right hon. friend, Mr. Kingston,
to accept it. I can quite see the difficulty has adopted this principle—if such a demo-
of my hon. friend, the Premier of New crat as our right hon. friend can accept it
South Wales. The whole of his observa- cheerfully.
tions yesterday plainly showed the diffi- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
culty he feared ; but I would point out to The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: It has
him that the Finance Committee have not been allowed to remain from 1882 to 1897,
been called together, and, if this Convention and the hon. gentleman has such power in
is not prepared to meet the great colony of his colony, and is so much thought of
New South Wales in a reasonable way, there in one branch of the legislature, if
then it will be open to the right hon. gentle- not in two, that I am sure that if he and
man and his fellow-colonists to say that his colleagues had seen any injustice in
they will not come into the confederacy. the provision they would have given effect
Let us deal with one thing at a time. No to their objections.
reason has yet been shown why we should The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : It is
have recourse to the referendum.
a great deal better than nothing !
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I am pre-
the hon. gentleman that there is not now pared to accept the proposal of the hon.
before the Committee any proposal for the member, Mr. Glynn, based, as it seems to
referendum.
me, on fifteen years' experience in the
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: It has been colony of South Australia. In our colony
referred to as one of the side-issues. we have not found any difficulty in this
[The Hon. Sir W. A. Zeal.
Commonwealth of
727
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
matter. It is true we have had differences the states would have all the powers they
with the other Chamber; but the other possessed at the present time. I think it
Chamber has been the aggressor in every
would be rather absurd if, after sitting in
instance.
the Convention in 1891, again in the Con-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is not vention at Adelaide, and now here, I
what the other chamber says !
should be under the impression that, hav-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: But it is ing relinquished the powers we are pre-
what I say, and I can prove it to be so pared to relinquish to the federal govern-
incontestably.
ment, we should still occupy the same
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: If one position in relation to all those matters
man stands still and the other man moves which we occupy at the present time. I
on, the man who moves on is bound to look do not think the right hon. gentleman
like the aggressor !
could have thought for a moment that I
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: We need intended to convey anything of the kind.
not discuss this proposal a second time. If What I meant was that I was anxious
you are desirous that these colonies shall that in the federal parliament the senate,
federate, I think it is time that this dis- representing the states, should not be
cussion came to an end, and that we came coerced by the house of representatives,
down to a vote. If the hon, member in- where the states might have very small
sists upon.his amendment I shall support representation.
it.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I can
Mr. SYMON : I intend to insist upon it assure the right hon. gentleman that he is
as amended!
perfectly correct
I did not suppose for a
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Then I moment that he was not aware of the
shall vote for it with such amendments as matter he refers to; but the bearing of my
the hon. member may deem it fit to accept. observation was this : that the hon. gentle-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST man, while aware of that, was fighting all
(Western Australia) (12:3]: I should like along the line to secure such a state of
to make an explanation. The Premier of constitution that the states in a similar
New South Wales appealed to me to ex- position to his own would always have a
plain what I meant. I thought I had power equivalent to an independent power
better not do so at the time, having regard in a majority of the senate, leaving the
to what happened yesterday ; but the larger states in a position in which they
right hon. gentleman sought to hold me up would have no guarantee whatever.
as a most ignorant person
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12:8]:
Hon. MEMBERS : No!
I might mention, for the information of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The hon. the hon. member, Sir William Zeal, that
gentleman, Sir John Downer, said that I the proposal before us is not really founded
did not know what I was saying for an upon any precedent in South Australia,
hour, and that is pretty rough. But I did because, although this provision in the law
not mind, it is only fun.!
has been in force there since 1882, it has
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : never been acted upon. The fact, there-
The right hon. member represented me as fore, that the provision is upon the statute-
saying that we wished to maintain our in- book in South Australia is not an argu-
dependence, and to have it guaranteed, ment upon which much reliance can be
and that I was under the impression that placed. The legislation was the result of
after a federal government was established rather a single contest with the upper
728
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
house. A further pretext for it was that account dissolve the house of representa-
the constitution of the electoral districts of tives, and if within six months after the
the Upper House bad been amended in said dissolution"; and that after the
1881. That was, I think, urged as one of words " the house of representatives ” in
the arguments in favour of the passing of the next line, he should insert the words
the provision. As a representative of one "in the next succeeding session.” That
of the smaller states, I object to the amend- would mean that if the house of represen-
ment of the hon, member, Mr. Symon. I tatives in two successive sessions passed
think it will be exceedingly unfair to the the law, then both houses should be dis-
larger states, and unfortunately hon. mem-
solved.
bers seem to be raising the issue once
Mr. SYMON : Without a general election
more of the smaller as against the larger intervening?
states.
Mr. GLYNN: Yes, without a general
Mr. SYMON : That will always be raised!
election intervening. I cannot understand
Mr. GLYNN: I do not think so. In the position taken up by some representa-
my opinion the practical result of the tives of the larger states. Some members
operation of the constitution will be a uni- of the smaller states are not asking for
fication with a large measure of protection
this. We do not want to make the upper
for local interests, through the principle house the stronghold of conservatism.
of equal representation in the senate.
An Hon. MEMBER: Nor do we !
I
do not think there is any need to raise the
Mr. GLYNN: If you leave out of ac-
bugbear of state interests; in doing so
count the fact that we shall be dealing
with unitarian matters under this consti-
you really endanger the passing of the
constitution itself. I would suggest to the
tution you may convert the upper house
hon, member, Mr. Symon, that he should
into one of the most conservative houses
not insist on something that would pro-
that we could possibly conceive. I am
bably lead to the defeat of this amend- justified in saying that, by the position
ment; but that he should accept the evi-
taken up in America by the Senate on
dent sense of the Committee, that the dis- many questions.
An Hon. MEMBER: How would the
solution must be a joint one; and in order
that the dissolution shall not be too hasty,
amendment read, as the hon. member sug-
I would suggest that he should amend the
gests it should ?
Mr. GLYNN: It would read as fol-
amendment by making it provide for a
lows:-
dissolution after the passing by the house
If the senate reject or fail to pass any proposed
of representatives of the measure in two
law which has passed the house of representa-
successive sessions -- not that a general
tives, or pass the same with amendments with
election should be interposed, for, if so, you which the house of representatives will not
might be met by the objection, properly agree, and if the house of representatives in the
raised by the right hon. member, Mr. Reid,
next succeeding session again pass the said pro-
posed law in the same or substantially the same
that that would be subjecting the house of
form as before, and with substantially the same
representatives to a second dissolution, and objects, and the senate again reject or fail to pass
the result would be that the initiative in a the said proposed law or pass the same with
matter of radical legislation would never
amendments with which the house of representa-
tives will not agree, the governor-general may
or seldom come from the house of represen-
dissolve the senate and the house of representa-
tatives. I therefore suggest that the hon. tives, and thereupon all the memters of both
member should omit the following words : houses of the parliament shall vacate their seats.
“the governor-general should on that An HON. MEMBER :
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
729
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
Mr. GLYNN: There must be at least constituents, I am afraid that they would
an interval of five or six weeks. The lose sight of the great national measure, and
writs cannot be issued and returned in less would return members largely, as at pre-
than five or six weeks, and during that sent, on personal and local considerations;
time there will be an opportunity for for we know how exceedingly hard it is to
members to express their opinions, and for get an expression of opinion on measures
a decision to be come to upon them. If as against local interests and personal
we do not have what I propose, we would preferences,
take away from the house of representa- The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : The
tives the initiation of radical measures, and people will look after that!
I will not consent to that. I believe that Mr. GLYNN: There is too much talk
the legislation of the federal parliament about the people and what in the abstract
will mostly be on matters of general policy, they might do. We must look at the
and not in one case out of a thousand on matter from the broad lines of common-
matters touching merely state interests, sense. We know from experience that we
and I think that unless such an amend- do not get a clear-cut issue at many elec-
ment as I suggest be adopted, the consti- tions, and that if there is a broad issue put
tution might be endangered by the raising before the electors their judgment is apt to
of exceedingly dangerous issues. A double be swayed under present conditions by per-
dissolution would have this advantage : If sonal and local considerations. Therefore,
you were to send only one house to the if we are to have a penal dissolution, we
country you might, as at present, have ought to have the one that applies to a unita-
many members returned largely on per- rian government, as it exists at present,
sonal considerations, and the interests on with the addition of delay and the inclusion
which the test was intended to be taken of the second chamber. I hope that the
might be subordinated to those considera- hon, member, Mr. Symon, will accept the
tions; but if you were to send the two amendment that I have suggested.
houses to the country together, what would The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
be prominent in the minds of the electors South Wales) [12:16]: I think that the
would be the fact that there was a fight . Committee have pretty generally come to
between the two houses, and the issue the conclusion that as a step towards
would turn, not on the personnel of the settling deadlocks a dissolution of both
members, but on the question of one house houses should take place. The difference
as against the other, and you would have of opinion seems to be as to whether the
a very great chance of the house of repre- dissolution of both houses should be simul-
sentatives, if it were in the right, being re- taneous, or whether it should take place
turned with the same personnel as before. with an interval between. I do not want
Mr. SYMON : So you would if the disso- to repeat the very strong arguments that
lution was not concurrent!
have been used already in favour of a
Mr. GLYNN: What I say is, that if dissolution to take place concurrently;
the dissolution were concurrent the chances but I add this consideration which I do
of that would be greater, for if you sent not think has been put before that the
the two houses to the country at the same mere fact of a dissolution of either house
time, the prominent fact in the minds of on any question of public importance
the people would be that there was a con- means in the first place a dislocation of the
flict between the two houses, and, if you business of the people, and in the second
sent the members of one house only to their place a dislocation of public business,
730
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
and it also means a great loss in the in- that weapon in the hands of a majority of
dustrial progress of the community, and the house of representatives. The original
a great delay in political progress. I say proposal, which the hon. gentleman pro-
that in the application of any system for poses to amend--the first paragraph of
getting rid of difficulties between the two the amendment of the New South Wales
houses, we should be careful not to make Parliament-deals with this question, it
the settlement of those questions more- appears to me, on truer lines, from the point
onerous to the country generally than is of view that the difficulty might arise in
necessary, and, therefore, a very strong either house of parliament, and it provides
reason why the two dissolutions should be that if either house disagrees with the
taken together is that the whole question other, then the house which passes the bill
at issue instead of dragging on, perhaps, without amendment, which bill is not
for six months, would he settled at one assented to by the other house, may be
time through the states, and through the the cause of the dissolution. That is to
constituencies representing the nation. say, it is not only in the house of represen-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Taking them tatives that the difficulty may arise; it
separately would be doubling the expense, may arise in the senate.
One can easily
too!
understand a political position of that
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Yes, as kind. Suppose, for instance, that towards
the hon, member points out, taking them the close of the life of a parliament a min-
separately would be doubling the expense, istry thought it had the country and the
which, because of the immense area of the states with it, but, for some reason or other
constituencies, would be a very serious con- it was in a minority in the house of repre-
sideration.
sentatives, the difficulty would concern
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : both houses, and why should not the ma-
The second might never come about ! jority in the senate be entitled to have the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The question sent to the country?
second might never come about, but we The Hon. S: FRASER : You would be
are dealing with a case in which both making it the aggressive house then. The
might, and probably would, be used. The
upper
houses have never been the aggres-
hon. member, Mr. Glynn, has made a sug- sive houses hitherto !
gestion which I do not think the Commit- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
tee will fall in with. The proposal of my
member falls into a confusion of ideas
hon. friend, Mr. Symon, seems to contem- when he speaks about the aggressive house.
plate that the senate is the house which is The house of progressive active legislation
standing out, and which is not in accord is always regarded as the aggressive house
with the opinions of the people generally. by the house which wants to stand still.
Mr. SYMON : Oh, no!
If a measure is passed by the senate to
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I should which the house of representatives is op-
like to point out to the hon. and learned posed, the hon. member might describe the
member, and to those who wish to see the senate as the aggressive house. The term
senate maintain the qualities of perma- is one which has no meaning whatever.
nence and stability as far as possible under Mr. HIGGINS : The proposed law is also
this constitution, that a plan which enables aggressive!
the senate to be dissolved at the will of the The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: What I
majority of the house of representatives is want to point out to my hon. and learned
a plan which, to a very large extent, puts friend, Mr. Symon, is : that there was a
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
731
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
difference of opinion as to whether the dis- be placed in the hands of the majority of
solution should or should not be concurrent. the house of representatives, not as an ad-
I am afraid that if the hon. and learned
ditional aid to be given to an executive
member's amendment is carried, he will government, but simply as an exceptional
lose the very great advantage of being able remedy to be applied in a case where the
to use the weapon of dissolution in the two houses cannot agree. It is for that
case where the senate stands out for its reason that I should like to have this
rights, and will only be able to apply it power exercised equally on behalf of the
when the house of representatives does so. house of representatives and on behalf of
Mr. SYMON : I should not like to lose the senate. Therefore, I suggest to the
that provision !
hon. and'learned member, Mr. Symon, that
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If the hon. it would be much better for his view if, in
and learned member will look at the amend- that. spirit of compromise which he has
ment suggested by the Legislative Assem- been so willing to show hitherto, inasmuch
bly of New South Wales, he will find that as the sense of the Committee generally
it reads as follows:
appears to be in favour of the double and
57. (a) If either house of parliament shall, in concurrent dissolution, he will recognise
two consecutive sessions of the same parliament, the situation, withdraw his amendment,
with an interval of at least six weeks between
and accept the first portion of the amend-
That is too short a period-
ment suggested by the Legislative As-
pass and transmit to the other house for its con- sembly of New South Wales, adding to it a
currence therein any proposed law which such
provision giving power to the governor to
other house fails to pass without amendment,
within thirty days after receiving the same, in
dissolve both houses.
the second session, or within such period passes,
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[12:25]:
with any amendment not agreed to by the house I agree with the hon. and learned member,
transmitting the proposed law, the provisions of
Mr. O'Connor, that to give this additional
the following sections of this part shall apply.
power to either house would be a great
If the early part of that amendment is
advantage, and would have a modifying
left, and there is added to it a provision influence upon both chambers; but what
that, under these circumstances, the Go-
I object to, and what I hope the Commit-
vernor shall have the power to dissolve tee will bear in mind, is this--and for the
both houses of Parliament, you are apply- purpose of my argument I will state an
ing what is a perfectly just principle—that extreme case. Suppose a designing execu-
is, that either house may have the advant- tive has set its mind upon some measure.
age of the appeal ensured by the dissolu-
It might possibly get the house of repre-
tion of both houses.
sentatives to agree to it. Another session
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: The
could then be held by design within a few
smaller states have asked for that!
weeks, and the same body would, of course,
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not
not go back upon their votes, but would
know whether they have or have not asked
agree to the proposal a second time, as in-
for. it. My endeavour is to make the con-
deed they would, if they were asked to do
stitution as just and fair as possible.
so, a third, fourth, and even a fifth time.
An. Hon. MEMBER : We have all the
I would ask the Committee, however, to
same.object in view !
provide for the intervention of time be-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I think
I tween the first and the second passing, so
we have all the same object in view. I as to allow the voice of the country to be
regard this dissolution, not as a weapon to
heard in the meantime.
732
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Does
the hon. gentleman mean by dissolving the
house of representatives ?
The Hon. S. FRASER: Yes.
Dr. QUICK : Why not the senate!
The Hon. S. FRASER: I believe, as
the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest just now
stated, that the opinion of the country
obtained through the house of representa-
tives would have just as good an effect
upon the senate as if the senate was
dissolved.
An Hon. MEMBER: Would the hon.
gentleman like to substitute the senate for
the house of representatives?
The Hon. S. FRASER: I do not know
that that would be such a great drawback
as the hon, and learned member thinks.
What I desire is that the opinion of the
country may be obtained befure any mea-
sure is passed a second time. What is the
use of passing it a second time unless the
opinion of the country has been obtained
upon it in the meanwhile? I have seen
the time in my own colony, and I think in
other colonies, when the house of repre-
sentatives would have passed a measure
dozen times if necessary, so long as there
was no dissolution. Surely legislation is
not of such a character that the people of
Australia cannot wait a few months to
make sure that their matured judgment is
in favour of a proposed change.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : To
ascertain their opinion would the hon.
member agree that the house which re-
fused in two sessions to pass a bill should
be the bouse to be dissolved—whichever
house it might be ?
The Hon. S. FRASER: I would agree
to the dissolution of the senate if the
opinion of the country was obtained by a
general election
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNÉR : That
might be penalising a house which was in
the right !
The Hon. S. FRASER: Every general
election is in a sense a penal election. At
any rate many members think it so.
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : The men who
are “ licked"
2" ?
The Hon. S. FRASER : Yes; the men
who are “licked" think it doubly penal.
If the government of the day set its heart
upon a measure which was not in the in-
terests of the nation, and the senate re-
fused to agree to that measure, I think
that the voice of the people should be
heard before the measure was thrust down
their throats against their true judgment.
Tinies without number I have seen it illus-
trated that a house of representatives would
pass a measure at the dictation of the
government. Every political man in the
community and in this Convention knows
that a powerful government, and some-
times a weak government, can get a house
of representatives to pass a measure with-
out any trouble whatever. I hope this
Convention will see that the opinion of
the country is obtained by a general elec-
tion before this power is given to the house
of representatives. There is no necessity
for rushing this legislation. Cannot we go
on in the same way as all other British
countries have gone on from time imme-
morial, and they are all powerful-cannot
we wait six or even twelve months with-
out any jeopardy to their living interests?
Therefore, be moderate.
Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, bear !
The Hon. S. FRASER: I suppose I
can sit down after those cheers ?
Hon. MEMBERS : No!
The Hon. S. FRASER: I hope the Con-
vention will insist upon having the opinion
of the country, and I would almost go the
length of saying that I would rather obtain
the opinion of the country through the dis-
solution of the senate than not have it atall.
As the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, said an
election of the senate may be coming on just
when a dispute occurs. If so, surely the
[The Hon. S. Traser.
Commonwealth of
733
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
1
house of representatives need not be in it is admitted by all reasonable democrats
such hot haste that they will force a mea- that a brake on democracy to prevent
sure on the senate. Let the ordinary time
undue haste is absolutely necessary. The
elapse, it may be only three or six months, question that arises in my mind is this,
and let the opinion of the country be ob- whether the giving practically to a majority
tained with proper machinery and in a in the house of representatives the power
proper manner. If we are going to have to dissolve the senate in case of disputes
federation, surely we ought to rise above will not impair the efficiency of that brake.
the miserable feeling of forcing a constitu-
An Hon. MEMBER: The house of repre-
tion on this country which is not on the sentatives will dissolve itself at the same
face of any statute in the British world. time!
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New- The Hon. J. HENRY: I am aware of
South Wales) [11:33]: I think I can make that, and I will deal with that presently.
a suggestion which may possibly get over We know from practical experience of
the whole of this difficulty, that is that we politics that it has happened in the history
should pass this proposal, and not make of colonial legislation that a ministry has
it applicable to the representatives of used the threat of a dissolution without
Victoria in the senate.
any intention of executing it to intimidate
The Hon.J.HENRY(Tasmania)[11.35]: weak-kneed or rebellious members. If we
It may be supposed that an apology is neces- place this weapon in the hands of a majo-
sary for a layman to address the Convention, rity, in the hands of the ministry of the
but, perhaps, no apology is necessary on this day in the house of representatives, it will
occasion, seeing that the hon. and learned be exercised as a threat, not necessarily to
members of the Convention have spoken at be put into execution ; but I fear it will
length. I hope hon. members will bear be used by ministers in exceptional cases
with me while I state the reason why I against the senate when a conflict arises,
am opposed to any proposal for giving the so that weak-kneed members of the senate
house of representatives practically the may be forced to yield, and consent to the
power of dissolving the senate. I should passing of a law which is opposed to their
like to premise this: that I am on the side · convictions. . That is what weighs with
of what is called liberal politics, and it is me in voting against any proposal to dis-
not from any obstinate, conservative point solve the senate. I, in common with other
of view that I speak. We have started members, have agreed that a concession
with this constitution-building, and we ad- shall be made. Although we consider it
mit that the bi-cameral system is to be por- unnecessary to make any provision for
tion of the constitution. It occurs to me that deadlocks, yet we have yielded to the argu-
there is a strong necessity to see that the ments urged by so inany hon. members
second chamber shall be an effective brake that such a provision will facilitate the
on any hasty legislation which is one
great cause in which we all have a com-
of the purposes for which I understand mon interest. While opposing a dissolution
second chambers are instituted. Thesenate of the senate on any account unless stronger
which we propose under this bill, as we reasons are urged which will remove the
know, will occupy the dual position of a doubts I have in my mind on the point I
state house, and also a house which, at have just raised, I am prepared to vote
the same time will perform the ordinary for the referendum of the hon. member,
functions of a second chamber in general Mr. Isaacs. I know that you, sir, have
legislation. I start with this, and I know ruled that that referendum cannot be
734.
Australia Bil.
Conmonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
discussed, and I have no wish to transgress' gested by my hon. friend, Mr. Glynn, be-
that ruling; but I would like to say that cause it really emasculates the proposition.
it appears to me there is so little difference It takes out of it the very element which
in effect between the proposal to dissolve I, at any rate, desire to have decided,
both houses and the proposed referendum, and which I think hon. members of this
that I think it is unnecessary to adopt Convention desire to have decided, namely,
both measures.
The only difference that whether those of us who are in favour of
occurs to me is, that in the one case- that a dissolution as one step-a first step, but,
of the referendum-you will have an ex- perhaps, not a final step-in this process,
pression of opinion by the whole of the prefer that the dissolution of the two
states and of the people, whereas by a dis- houses should be successive or concurrent..
solution of both houses you will have a If we were to adopt the suggestion of my
doubtful expression of opinion on ac- hon, friend it would interpose between the
count of the personal and other consider passing of the measure and the dissolution
ations which will weigh with the elec- of the senate, not an appeal to the people
tors in returning members to the senate by the house of representatives, but merely
or house of representatives. For these a second session. Now, that is not the point
reasons. I shall feel it ny duty to oppose to which I have sought to direct attention
any proposal to dissolve the senate. I by this amendment. I am deeplyindebted to
would further add that, so far as I have my hon. and learned friend, Mr. O'Connor,
studied this question, the great distinction for the suggestion he has thrown out, and,
between these two houses-one important more than that, for the exceedingly moderate
distinction, at any rate, is that although and fair way in which he has put the view
both are elected by the same franchise, in that he has commended to my acceptance
the case of the senate, the longer tenure of in connection with this amendment. I feel
office and the provision that half the mem- with him that, whether in substance or
bers shall retire every three years, secures
not, it has, at any rate, an appearance of
continuity to that body. If you give the conferring upon the senate a power seem-
proposed power to dissolve the senate, you ingly co-ordinate with the power which
will impair or destroy that conservative would be vested in the house of represen-
element in the senate. For that reason I tatives, and to that extent it would be an
shall vote against any proposal to dissolve advantage, and I should like to see it
the senate.
secured. But at present it does not appear
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:40]: to me to be capable of being secured con-
I desire to say in reference to the point jointly with the principle which I seek to
my hon. friend has raised as to substitut- affirm, of having a dissolution of the house
ing, as I think he intends, a double refer- of representatives before any dissolution
endum, or something of that kind, for a of the senate. I do not see how it can be
dissolution, instead of having a dissolu- fitted in, and of the two I should prefer to
tion first, which is the intention of my hon. guard the senate against being dissolved
friends from Victoria, as one safeguard, at the dictation of a majority of the house
superadding to that, if they can, some' of representatives rather than put it in the
other provision, which I do not intend power of the senate to drive the house of
to discuss, he proposes that there should representatives to the constituencies. I
be one, and one only, and of the two he think of the two this is the better in the
prefers the referendum. I regret that I interests of the senate and the interests
am unable to accept the amendment sug- they are specially elected to serve.
[The Hon. J. Henry.
Commonwealth of
735
517 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
The Hon. S. FRASER : The clause might of representatives passes a measure, and
be recommitted with the view of assimilat- sends it to the senate, and the senate re-
ing the two !
jects it, it in effect says, “ You do not
Mr. SYMON: No doubt. I want represent the people,” so far as that par-
specially to point out that my only desire ticular measure is concerned, and the house
is to affirm the principle, to ask the Con- of representatives then, if a dissolution is
vention to decide whether they wish a brought about, go to the people with the
concurrent dissolution of the senate and view of ascertaining whether they do or do
house of representatives, or whether they not represent the people, and coming back
wish to have a successive dissolution of with the mandate of which the senate says
the two chambers.
they stand in need. That is the principle
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: That is the underlying every system of responsible
issue !
government with which I am acquainted.
Mr. SYMON: That is the issue, and it It is the principle upon which the House
is from that point of view that, with the of Lords in England rejected the Home
permission of the chamber, I have with-
Rule Bill. They said that in passing the
drawn those other provisions which simply Home Rule Bill the House of Commons
entangle that issue. I think that is reason- did not represent the people. It was a
able and clear. I do not see my right hon. plea; an effective plea, for delay, and
friend, Mr. Reid, here
having put in that effective plea for delay,
An Hon. MEMBER : He has gone, of a dissolution took place, and upon that dis-
course!
solution, instead of the Gladstonian policy
Mr. SYMON: He has gone, and, there- of Home Rule being affirmed, it was re-
fore, all I will say is, that I did not take jected, and the measure has never again
it as any particular argument against the seen the light. We are introducing into
principle embodied in this amendment that this federal system responsible government,
it should be characterised as an absurdity. and the underlying principle is that the
I am not thin-skinned at all ; I know that house of representatives, representing the
my right hon. friend is a master of pictur- people, is amenable to some degree of criti-
esque and figurative expressions, and there- cism on the part of the house which im-
fore I always feel that when he uses an poses the check, and that it is within the
epithet of that kind it is not intended constitutional consequences that it shall
really to convey argument but to embellish go to its constituents. If it comes back
his discourse. That, I take it, is the only supported by the people, the senate must
use to which the hon. members of this either give way or go to its constituents.
Convention would be disposed to apply That is the proper constitutional course,
these highly-entertaining but, so far as and it is upon these grounds, stated in
furthering the object we have in view is con- one sentence, that I venture to say that
cerned, not very effective expressions. Upon the principle of successive dissolution, dis-
the principle of successive, as opposed solution of the senate after a dissolution
to concurrent dissolution, all I say is of the house of representatives, and with
this, in one word, the house of repre- that interval, is the proper order in.
sentatives is supposed specially to repre- which these proceedings should take place.
sent the people of the nation. I think we Therefore, on that ground, with a view to
may take that as admitted on all hands, have the principle either affirmed or nega-
even by those of us who desire to secure tired at this stage, I propose to press the
a strong and effective senate. If the house arnendment.
726
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
!
He was per-
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania) but in Tasmania you could never trace out
[12.48] was understood to say that, in his how a man voted. Now, what did we want
opinion, neither a referendum nor a disso- with all this machinery? Why not go to
lution of the senate was required in this the people at once? If there was to be a
constitution. The Attorney-General in referendum let there be one.
Victoria had alluded to the state of Eng- fectly indifferent what course they took.
land at the time of the Reform Bill. The Why should you have all these absurd
Reform Bill had no more to do with the provisions for spending the money of the
question before the Convention than had country? Why not vote on the point at
the man in the moon. The Reform Bill once, and if the two houses did not agree,
was introduced because the people were have a referendum and be done with it.
not properly represented in the House of The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Move an amend-
Commons, and by the carrying of the mea- ment in that direction !
sure, what was almost a revolution was The Hon. A. DOUGLAS did not having
prevented. But here the circumstances regard to his relation to the electors of
were entirely different. Under the com- Tasmania, care which way hon, members
monwealth the house of representatives voted, because anything would suit him.
would be elected by the people, and the He would vote for the amendment of his
senate also would be elected by the people. hon. and learned friend, Mr. Symon, be-
We talked about the popular chamber; but, cause he thought it was a fair one. He
under this constitution, which would be the would be only too glad if a vote could be
popular chamber? It would be that which taken on the question as soon as possible.
would support the general views of the com- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
munity. It did not follow that the house of (South Australia) [12:54]: It has been
representatives would be the popular cham- attempted to justify our refusal to send
ber. We knew that ministers had certain the senate to its constituents by some
ways of influencing constituencies, and that analogy between the senate and the House
it was very easy for the house of repre- of Lords.
sentatives, through the ministry, or for Mr. SYMON: There is no analogy what-
the ministry through the house of re-
ever !
presentatives, to get up a cry against the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
other house. In this colony the Council I am glad that my hon. and learned friend
was a nominee house ; in Tasmania we has to abandon the argument. The reason
were more liberal, but we were called con- why the Lords are not sent to the consti-
servatives. It was just the opposite. Any tuencies the same as the House of Com-
man might be elected to a seat in the Upper mons is because the House of Lords has no
House, for no qualification was required, constituencies to be sent to.
except that a man should be of full age The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: We
and be a natural-born or naturalised sub- all know that!
ject of her Majesty. In New South Wales, The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
however, they nominated their councillors, I am very pleased that we agree in that
and yet they talked about their liberties. matter. It is a very different thing when
In our little colony we had true liberty in there are two houses claiming practically
every shape and form; the only true ballot the same constituents, and a difficulty as
which existed throughout Australia was in to which is faithfully interpreting the de-
Tasmania. In any colony on the main sire of the constituencies. I subunit that,
land you could trace out how a man voted, under such circumstances, the proper course
Conmonwealth of
737
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
is to send both at the same time, and let to any appreciable extent. But, in the end,
the constituencies decide between them. if we are, and the house is resolved that
The suggestion that it should be placed in we shall have some mode of sending the
the power of one house to refrain from senators back to their constituents, I care
subjecting itself to a popular verdict while not at all whether there is a joint dissolu-
sending the other to the constituencies is tion or a separate dissolution.
indefensible.
An Hon. MEMBER :
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I care
Australia) [12:56]: I was not in the Cham- not whether the senate and the house of
ber this morning during the greater part representatives are sent back together or
of the speech of the Premier of New South separately. It will make no substantial
Wales. I understand that there were some difference in the result. We have no
mutual explanations between himself and analogy. All the analogies which are set
the Premier of Western Australia, which up are false analogies.
I, unfortunately, did not hear, and that in Mr. SYMON : They are only illustrations
the course of them the Premier of New —they are not analogies !
South Wales referred to my observations The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : They
of yesterday as being decidedly insulting. are illustrations, not analogies. I am sure
An Hon. MEMBER : He did it very good that my hon. and learned friend, if, unfor-
humouredly, though !
tunately, his amendment should happen to
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am be lost, would have no fear himself in
quite sure that no one in the Chamber cheerfully adopting the other proposal,
could be more reluctant to insult anyone which the Premiers of New South Wales
with whom he is on terms of personal · aud Victoria seem to favour, of having a
friendship than myself. I am happy to joint dissolution.
.
say on this occasion that the Premier of Mr. SYMON : I think this is better; that
New South Wales himself accepted the is all !
position that he was not addressing the The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: For
Convention but the public outside, and in my own part, I am indifferent if nothing
what I said I was only repeating what he is done. First of all, I think that this pro-
had said. Unfortunately, I do not see the vision as to a deadlock is absolutely un-
hon. member, Sir William Zeal, in his necessary; but as the Committee has de-
place. I managed to offend him by an cided that it is necessary—although I shall
interjection this morning.
vote for minimising the operation of every
An Hon. MEMBER : He is not offended ! proposal which is made, I care not whether
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We there is a dissolution with the precautions
are working so whole-heartedly on the same surrounding it, which my hon. and learned
side that I really could not understand friends seek to surround it with, or whether
how on earth I could have offended him. there be a joint dissolution in the way in
On the question before the Committee, I which the representatives of the larger
will vote with my hon, and learned friend, colonies seem to prefer.
Mr. Symon. My view is so strongly against Question-That the following words be
the possibility of what they call a dead- inserted in the proposed new clause after
lock, against there beiug any necessity to
the word “ If” in line 1: the senate
provide this machinery, that I will vote reject or fail to pass any proposed law
for minimising any cure which may be set
which has passed the house of representa-
up for a disease which is not likely to exist tives, or pass the same with amendments
738
Australici Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
with which the house of representatives The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I de-
will not agree, and if the governor-general sire to move an addition to the words
should dissolve the house of representa-
which have been agreed to!
tives, and if, within six months after the Mr. LYNE: So do I. I am about to
said dissolution, the house of representa- read the words the addition of which I pro-
tives by an absolute majority again pass
pose to move. Whatever may be the
the said proposed law in the same or sub- views of hon. members as to the result of
stantially the same form as before, and with the vote which has been taken, there is no
substantially the same objects, and the other course for them but to add to the
senate again reject or fail to pass the said words which have been passed any other
proposed law or pass the same with amend provision which they may deen desirable.
ments with which the house of represen- The addition which I intend to propose is
tatives will not agree, the governor-general one which I think should be proposed at
may dissolve the senate-put. The Com-
this juncture. I was quite prepared to
mittee divided :
vote in favour of the double dissolution
Ayes, 27; noes, 22; majority, 5.
of the senate and house of representatives
AYES.
concurrently.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Henning, A. H.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : And stop
Briggs, H.
Howe, J. H.
there?
Brown, N. J.
James, W. H.
Mr. LYNE: No, I would not stop there.
Clarke, M. J.
Leake, G.
Cockburn, Dr. A. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
I intend to move the addition of the fol-
Crowder, F. T. Lewis, N. E.
lowing words to the words which have been
Dobson, H.
McMillan, W.
agreed to :-
Douglas, A.
Moore, W.
And if, after a dissolution of both houses of
Downer, Sir J. W. Solomon, V. L.
the federal parliament, as above provided, the
Forrest, Sir J.
Venn, H. W.
subject-matter of the contention that led to such
Fraser, s.
Walker, J. T.
dual dissolution is again passed by the house of
Fysh, Sir P. O. Zeal, Sir W. A.
representatives, and again rejected by the senate,
Grant, C. H.
Teller,
such measure shall be referred to the electors of
Hassell, A. Y. Symon, J. H.
the commonwealth by means of a national refer-
Noes.
endum, and, if resolved in the affirinative, shall
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
become law.
Barton, E.
Kingston, C. C.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
Berry, Sir G.
Lyne, W. J.
think my proposal would really come be-
Brunker, J. N. O'Connor, R. E.
Carruthers, J. H. Quick, Dr. J.
fore that of the hon. gentleman !
Deakin, A.
Reid, G. H.
Mr. LYNE: I hardly think that any
Glynn, P. M.
Trenwith, W. A.
other proposal can come before mine. I
Gordon, J. H.
Turner, Sir G.
Hackett, J. W. Wise, B. R.
intended this morning, had there not been
Henry, J.
so much discussion upon the proposal of
Higgins, H. B.
Mr. Symon, to suggest to the leader of the
Holder, F. W.
Peacock, A. J.
Convention that it would be more con-
Question so resolved itself in the
venient to deal with this question of a
affirmative.
mass or general referendum before dealing
[The Chairman left the chair at 1.3 p.m. The with any of the intermediate proposals
Committee resumed at 2:3 p.m.]
which may take its place if it be rejected.
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [23]: My reason for wishing to do so was this:
After the vote which was taken before we Take my own case, and the case, perhaps,
adjourned
of other hon, members of the Convention.
Teller,
Commonwealth of
739
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I should be prepared, probably, to vote for infinitely better, to my mind, to agree to
some intermediate course if I found it im- proportional representation in the senate
possible to obtain a mass or general refer- with a dissolution in case of deadlock, than
endum. But until such time as a vote was to be driven into the position in which I
taken upon that question, I should be com- am driven now, somewhat against my will,
pelled to vote against any other proposal of endeavouring to alleviate the position
which might be submitted to take its place. in which we find ourselves at the present
So that, in that case, my vote might be mis- time by proposing a mass referendum. I
construed, and I should be placed in an un- recognise that there are occasions when a
enviable and awkward position. That he question referred to the people, no mat-
ing so, it seems to me that the proper time ter how serious its import, may not be
to discuss the question of a mass or general thoroughly understood by the people when
referendum is now. If it be defeated, then voted upon. I recognise that that may
I say, unhesitatingly, that, as far as I am be the case, and for that reason I should
personally concerned, I may see my way be prepared to have proportional represen-
clear to vote for some intermediate course. tation of the states in the senate instead
I could not do that if I were put in the of any referendum at all. I think it would
position of having to vote upon everything have been better, as things have turned
until I had an opportunity to vote upon out, to have let the Convention know in
the question of a general referendum. On Adelaide-those of us who desired some
the question of a general referendum-- form of referendum or proportional repre-
--that is, the desirableness of leaving the
sentation--what the feeling of the people
question to be decided by the people as a
of this colony was upon this question.
whole, I think there is very little necessity I took that course as far as I was con-
for me to say much at the present time. I cerned, and I feel in myself that I took
feel that, in a country like this, we cannot the right course. I regret that the speech
go far wrong if we leave to the verdict of delivered yesterday by the right hon. the
the whole people any serious or important Premier of this colony or at any rate the
question. It would be a safeguard in the substance of it, was not delivered to the
future against a combination by any state Convention in Adelaide at an early stage
or states, or by any section, small or large, of our proceedings, because I think the
of the people, for the purpose of carrying hon. gentleman would have been placed in
against a majority any proposal of a seri- a better position than he is placed in now
ous character which may be submitted to by the reversal of the attitude he assumed
the general parliament, passed by the house on the first occasion. As I have said, we
of representatives, and rejected by the cannot lose sight of the fact that this ques-
senate. When this Convention met in tion underlies the constitution of the senate.
Adelaide, and when we discussed the
ques-
I do not think it was a right or wise thing
tion of equal state representation there, I for the right hon. Premier to lead the Con-
felt that we could have well done without vention to believe that the people of this
the proposition that I am making at the colony were against proportional repre-
present time, and also any other safety sentation and in favour of equal represen-
measure for deadlocks, by providing for a tation, and in the last few days of this
dissolution of both houses, had this Conven- Convention, almost on the last day, to find
tion agreed to proportional representation the right hon. gentleman absolutely turn-
in the senate. That, to my mind, underlies ing from the course he adopted when in
the whole question. It would have been Adelaide. I think there is no necessity
540
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT. 1897.1
for me to detain the Convention at any to enforce its views against the will of
length upon this proposal. I recognise that the representative chamber.
It is only
it is one to which probably the smaller after that point has been reached that I ask
states will not, unfortunately for us, agree. the Convention to agree to some further
But I do recognise that, unless we have method of referring any particular matter
some such provision as I am submitting that may have been dealt with up to that
now-being forced into the position I am stage, and to ask for the vote of the people as
I will not say that the bill will not a whole--not in states—as to whether that
be accepted by the people of New South should or should not become the law of
Wales, but its acceptance will be retarded. the land. I do not intend to occupy any
An HON. MEMBER: How does the hon. undue time in debating this question. After
member know that?
the long debate that has taken place, and
Mr. LYNE : There is no overlooking when certain hon, members are anxious to
the fact-it must be patent to every mem- close the proceedings of the Convention, if
ber of the Convention that this question possible, within the next day or two, I do
underlies the whole ultimate power of not think that this is a time when we
the senate, and leaves to the people as a should create delay. I simply submit this
whole, not as each state, but as a whole, matter for the consideration of the Com-
the right to determine absolutely upon any mittee, hoping that it will meet with the
particular question, after the process pro- approval of the majority of hon, members,
vided for in the hon. member, Mr. Symon's, which will assist me to a very large extent
clause. There is one very strong reason why to overcome my objection to the bill as it
I favour this course now, and it is this : If is at the present time, with equal state re-
you have a dissolution of the senate and of presentation, and will assist me to carry
the house of representatives, each house will the bill to the constituencies in this colony,
back to each state on its original basis. and ask them to give an affirmative vote
The members of the house of representa- to accept it as the constitution for the
tives of course go back to their separate future commonwealth of Australasia.
constituencies. The members of the senate The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
go back and ask the approval, not of the South Wales) [2.18]: I do not propose at
whole people, but of a section of the people present to discuss the proposal which has
as constituted in a state, and I think that been submitted by the hon. member, Mr.
the effect of that would be to make the Lyne; but I should like to correct a mis-
senate very much stronger than it would apprehension into which he has fallen in
be without a dissolution, because if I were reference to my action in this matter.
a member of the senate, and took a cer- The hon. member is entirely mistaken in
tain course on a particular bill which was saying that, by anything which I said
assented to by the house of representa- yesterday, I have departed from the atti-
tives, and if I went before my constitu- tude which I took up at Adelaide or at
ents in a state, to ask their approval any other place. My attitude all through
of my vote, and their approval was given has been perfectly consistent. I have
to the course that I had taken, I should seen that it was impossible to secure any
simply vote again as I had voted before ; federation without conceding this prin-
other hon. members might do the same ciple, or whatever it may be called, of
thing, and, instead of the deadlock being equal representation in the senate. That
done away with, it would be emphasised, has been recognised by every person who
and that would make the senate stronger has taken any interest in the subject
go
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
741
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
during the last ten years, and I, recog- been given. I feel that, by the action of
nising the logic of necessity, I saw at once the representatives of the smaller states, I
if there was to be any federation that I have been placed in a false position-a
must give way on that, and having given position I feel it very difficult to get out
way I have not made any bargain about of. If I am compelled to vote for this
it. I have given away absolutely, not only amendment, I shall be compelled to take a
now, but always; and, in speaking to the step that I strongly feel is not altogether
people of this colony and in my published in the interests of the federal movement;
address, I explicitly stated that I felt we yet, to my mind, it is the only step that
must yield on that point; but I invariably can offer us any means of escape from the
connected with that most grave conces- difficult position in which we have been
sion, as I take it to be, the fact that in placed. I want, if I possibly can, to avoid
other parts of the constitution there must that, and I was anxious to move an amend-
be something which would moderate the ment in the first instance. The only way
force of that concession. I have invariably in which I can now bring the matter be-
taken up that position.
fore the Convention is by moving an
An Hon. MEMBER : Or destroy it! amendment on that of my hon. friend. In
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do not the first instance, we, who represented
wish to do that exactly; but I do not wish what we considered to be the feelings of
the legitimate force of numbers to be de- the people of Victoria, at the Adelaide
stroyed. That is the difference between Convention desired to have a referendum
the hon. member and myself. The hon. direct-a referendum of some sort without
member and many others—a majority, I can. any double dissolution—without any dis-
see, in this Chamber--are determined that, solution at all. We thought we were
at all hazards, the power of the smaller carrying out the wishes of our people by
states, the power of the smaller number of asking that, if any dispute arose between
people over the larger number of people the two houses, and they unfortunately
shall be made absolutely sure. That is could not settle that dispute, the matter
the rock from which a lot of danger will should go directly to the people for their
I have never asked for quite so
decision.
much as that in the interests of the larger An HON. MEMBER: And not the states !
populations; but unless my hon. friends The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We
are prepared to moderate their demands
were prepared to accept a referendum to
for certainty for themselves, and do not the people and the states ; although, if I
give us even the pleasures of uncertainty interpret rightly what the people of Vic-
as to our position, I am afraid that I shall toria would desire, they would ask for the
have to address the Convention even more national referendum; but, feeling that in
emphatically than I did yesterday.
that they were going further than the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- small states were likely to go, we were
toria) [221]: With a large number of the willing, as we always have been and I
observations made by the hon. member, especially have been— to concede as much
Mr. Lyne, I thoroughly agree; and if his as we possibly could to the smaller states
amendment goes to a division I feel, though for the purpose of gaining the larger ob-
with very great reluctance, bound to say ject; and I, from observations made to me
that, somewhat against my own feelings by some of my colleagues, have come very
and convictions, I shall be compelled to strongly to the conclusion that, holding a
vote for it, after the vote which has just leading position in the colony of Victoria,
come.
3 F
742
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.
I have from the first taken a wrong course and baving the question settled at once,
—that I have conceded, honestly conceded, without waiting two and a half years for
too much to this Convention.
parliament to expire. It can surely never
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: You do be intended that this dissolution is only
not get much thanks for your concession, to come into operation on the expiration
I can see!
of parliament by effluxion of time. That
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It would be too absurd, and I am sure that
would have been far better if I had kept my hon. and learned friend never intended
back my own personal desires, and asked such a thing. I was prepared, against
for more—if I had haggled and endea- what I believed to be the strongly ex-
voured to make bargains. But that is not pressed desire of the people of Victoria,
my nature, either here or elsewhere. I and against the very strong protest of my
honestly put forward what I think ought hon. colleagues, expressed by their voices
to be carried. That being our view-that if not by their votes, to concede a great
we did not want to have anything to do deal to the smaller states; because I know
with a dissolution, either joint or separate, that, while I shall find it difficult to induce
but wanted simply a referendum of some the people of Victoria to accept the various
sort-we, in order to meet the wishes of concessions which have been made, the
other representatives here, and, as I said hon. gentlemen who represent the smaller
the other night, if possible to get a unani- colonies will find it equally difficult to
mous or nearly unanimous vote on this induce their people to accept the bill, and
great difficulty-we, against our own con- I wanted to make the trouble as little as
victions, were prepared to postpone the possible for both of us. I am surprised at
referendum until after the question bad the result of the vote which has taken
been decided by a double dissolution. But place.
place. I cannot say that it was a wrong
we are not prepared to postpone the refer- and improper one, because it was the vote
endum until after the question has been of the majority ; but, having listened to
decided by a penal dissolution of one the speeches which were made here today,
house, and afterwards by a dissolution of and on former occasions, I was perfectly
the other chamber.
certain that a very large majority were
Mr. SOLOMON : The dissolution under prepared to agree to what I believe to be
this amendment is not necessarily penal ! a reasonable and proper course, the double
The Hon. E. BARTON : Not necessarily; dissolution. While I am surprised and
but it generally will be !
sorry at the result of to-day's vote, I am
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Then more sorry that the result of the division
we do not want it at all.
was brought about by a combination of
Mr. SYMON : It is substantially a general the representatives of the smaller states.
election !
Mr. SYMON: The opposite vote was a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Why combination of the larger states !
encumber the bill with it if that is all it The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : What does the
means? I take it that if the government right hon, member call a combination ?
of the day were within a few months of The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
the expiration of parliament, they would do not mean anything improper.
not rush for a penal dissolution. The object The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Then, why say it?
of the provision is that if disputes arise in The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: If
the early life of a parliament, there will be the word has a meaning which is impro-
some means of going direct to the people per, I will not use it. I will say, instead,
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner,
Commonwealth of
743
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that this result has been brought about by While I was prepared to accept a double
an unfortunate joining of the votes of the dissolution with the referendum added, if
representatives of the smaller states. it should ever become necessary, though I
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Four South believe that it never would be necessary,
Australian representatives voted with the I cannot agree to the proposal which has
right hon. member!
been carried, which is that first of all we
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: should punish the house of representatives,
What will be the result of this division in and that the senate, which it is to be sup-
the minds of the people of the larger colo- posed would do the blocking, should stand
nies? They will say that what will happen quietly by and force the members of the
to-day will happen when we have a senate house of representatives into heavy expense
in which the states are equally represented, and loss. Since I cannot get what I con-
and that they are not prepared to trust sider a fair and just compromise--a double
themselves to a body which will have the dissolution-I must fall back upon our
great powers which we have given to it, original proposal, and with a view to get-
and will not be subject to dissolution until ting it, with a view to ascertaining whether
after the popular assembly has gone through my hon. friends from the smaller states
all the pains and penalties of that process. are prepared to help us out of this diffi-
That will be the view of a large number of culty, I suggest, in lieu of this proposal,
our people. I feel that the plan proposed which we look upon as something we ought
is so unfair that I am prepared to adopt not to accept, the simple expedient of going
any other plan. I will, if I cannot carry
direct to the people.
the amendment which I intend to propose,
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Does the right
vote for the proposal of my hon. friend, hon. member suggest that by way of alter-
though I do not want to do so if I can native?
avoid it. I want to get back to the posi- Mr. SYMON: Where would the right hon.
tion in which I stood before I made a great member's amendment come in ?
concession by agreeing to a double dissolu- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER ::
tion before a referendum. I desire that The hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon,
there should be the two modes. The mode has carried an amendment which provides
which has been carried will, I presume, be that if the senate rejects a measure the
insisted upon by the victorious party. It house of representatives may be dissolved,
provides for two separate dissolutions. Of and if, after the house of representatives
course, if they agreed to a double dissolu- has come back victorious the senate will
tion, the whole matter would be settled. not pass the measure, the senate may be
I must assume, unless I hear to the con- dissolved. Now, why should we have
trary, that hon. members are prepared to this turmoil and trouble going on month
stand by the victory which they have just after month-why should we have all
gained. Then I want, in justice to myself the trouble and bother of electing the:
and to the colony of Victoria, to get back house of representatives if the senate is
to the position in which we were at Ade- not to be bound to accept the decision of
laide, and I therefore desire to strike out the house of representatives after its re-
the first word of my hon. friend's proposal turn ? I could understand the hon. and
in order to insert the words
learned member if he said that the house
Provided that in lieu of dissolving the house
of representatives should go to the people,
of representatives, the proposed law should be
referred to the direct determination of the
and, if they came back with a majority,
people, as hereinafter provided.
the senate should be compelled to give
744
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
way, as is the constitutional principle in The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER:I am
England and in the colonies.
not going to say what sort of referendum.
An Hon. MEMBER : You might as well An Hon.MEMBER: The dual referendum!
wipe out the senate in that case !
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I am
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No. perfectly prepared, personally, to accept
In the proposal which we have carried, the double referendum.
you ultimately wipe out the senate if they
The Hon. E. BARTON: Hon, members will
are wrong. You would only wipe tliem
not know what they are voting for unless
out under my suggestion if the people said
you put in the dual, or the national refer-
that the house of representatives was right
endum !
and the senate wrong. I do not want to
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
have the turmoil and trouble which the
have left that open.
proposal of the hon. and learned member
Mr. LYNE:
would cause.
Month after month must
go by, and the whole commonwealth be
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The
thrown into a state of disorder when these
hon. member's proposal would shut out
disputes occur. Twelve months will not
mine altogether. It assumes that the two
dissolutions are to take place. I consider
cover the period of disorder.
that is hopeless.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: It would only
be in a very extreme case that these dis-
Mr. LYNE: Does the hon. member's
putes would occur !
amendment propose to alter the decision
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : So
which we have arrived at?
much the more reason why my hon, and The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No,
learned friend should consider the very I propose to give an additional means of
reasonable appeal which I made the other getting out of the difficulty—an alterna-
night. When these disputes do arise, we tive--leaving it to the choice of the execu-
should have twelve months' turmoil, trouble, tive of the day to adopt one course or the
and delay, besides the enormous expense
of other. The executive of the day will be
the elections. I feel the seriousness of the
in a position to say,
- We feel so sure
position in which we stand; therefore, in
about this that we are prepared to allow
fairness to ourselves, I want to get back
the house of representatives to go to the
to the original position. Having held out country," or they may say, “We will not
the olive branch which I believed would be put the country to the enormous expense
accepted, and having failed by a consider- of a dissolution, and we are not going to
able majority, I cannot conscientiously subject the members of the house of repre-
agree to the decision which has been come sentatives to a penal dissolution when we
to. I now want the smaller states to put
believe them to be right. We will adopt
us back in the position in which we were
the principle of the referendum, go direct
before. My amendment is shortly this :
to the people, and get their opinion.”
that where a bill has been rejected in the
The Hon. J.H. HOWE: We should not
manner described by the amendment, in object to that in the least !
lieu of dissolving the house of representa- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
tives and sending them to the people, and have left it in this form so that the matter
then following that up with the other dis- can be quietly and calmly discussed, I hope
solution, there shall be a choice, an option without any feeling.
of appealing to a referendum.
Mr. MCMILLAN : What will the hon.
An Hon. MEMBER : What referendum? member accept himself ?
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 745
An Hon. MEMBER: The hon. gentleman proposed, the question will be referred to
told the Convention the other night, but the direct determination of the people "as
it was not accepted !
hereinafter provided."
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I
Mr. McMILLAN :: Would the direct de-
am not going back on what I said the termination of the people preclude the
other night. If I cannot get a double dis-
other?
solution I am quite prepared to wipe it off
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No,
the slate altogether. If I cannot get a
the direct determination of the people was
double dissolution I desire to wipe out the
hereinafter provided." Thatshows we mean
dissolution altogether, and I am prepared
to do something later on. Subject to the
to take the referendum straight; but
correction of the Chairman, I bold that it
whether my colleagues are prepared to do
will leave it perfectly open to propose sub-
that, or whether a majority of the Conven- sequently a national referendum or a dual
tion are, is another question. I want to
referendum.
have the question as fairly discussed as
Mr. LYNE : Does not your amendment
possible, therefore I have not attempted
in effect reverse the vote we have arrived
to cloud it with the other question of what
at?
sort of referendum we are to have. I am
HON. MEMBERS : No !
leaving that matter and my own mind The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: We
open.
have already provided that there shall be
Mr. SYMON : It will not clear it if the
one means of settling the deadlock. There
hon. member leaves that open !
is nothing in the world to prevent us pro-
viding two means. All we have said is
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
Yes it will, in this way: If I now bring
that there is one mode of doing it; but
forward a hard and fast proposal, hon.
we are not bound to stop there. I shall
not detain the Committee any further
members will have to vote for and against
I feel we are in a somewhat false position.
it, whereas, if I leave it open, we shall be
I am anxious to get out of that difficulty
able to discuss the matter fully, and ascer-
tain whether we are prepared to accept
and yet stand loyally by what I have
promised to the smaller states.
either one or other class of referendum.
The CHAIRMAN: The question is as fol-
The Hon. E. BARTON: The difficulty is
lows :— The hon. member, Mr. Lyne, has
that hon. members will not be able to
moved to insert certain words. An amend-
understand the consequence of their vote ! ment has been moved to leave out the
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It word " if” in those words : The question
will be still open to them to come to a is that the word “if" be left out in the
decision on that point. They will be per- proposed addition to the proposed para-
fectly prepared to say, “We are ready to graph of the proposed new clause, with the
give an alternative; then, when it comes view of inserting some other words.
to the point of saying what the form of Mr. SOLOMON (South Australia)
referendum is to be, those who want the [244]: I have refrained during this lengthy
mass referendum will be in a position to debate from taking any part in it, because
vote for that; those who want the more I recognise that, in this matter, which is of
limited referendum will be in a position to great importance to the federal interest,
vote for it, and the majority will decide. the opinions of those who have made a
I am going to put the anendment in this close study during their lifetime of consti-
form : In lieu of a dissolution, such as is tutional law were of much more value to
.
746
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
this Convention than my opinions could be. to his feet, to tell us that, rather than sac-
But after weighing carefully the opinions' rifice federation on this point, he is pre-
of different speakers with reference to this pared to do away with this complicated
question, I voted with the successful side question of a dissolution of each house,
in the last division, believing that that and to accept a referendum-not a mass
course was the least inimical to what I or national referendum, but a referendum
always have endeavoured to protect the such as most hon. members-I think the
interests of each individual state in the majority—will agree to-a double refer-
senate. The admission made a few moments endum, a referendum to the people and to
ago by the Premier of New South Wales the states; a referendum in which a grave.
that, when he voted for equal representa- and important issue, which will be of in-
tion in the senate, or rather when he gave terest to the whole of federated Austra-
way on that question, he did so because he lia, will not be decided by the numerical
saw that proportional representation would strength of one or two great colonies,
mean a death-blow to the federal scheme, parties to the federation, but will be de-
seems to me to justify all that the repre- cided both by the numerical majority, and
sentatives of the smaller states have said by the majority of the states. If the right
in reference to the desire of some of these lon. member, Sir George Turner, and some
hon. members on the one hand to give a of his colleagues, and a majority of this
sham equality in the senate, a sham power Convention, will agree to accept such a
of no value whatever, and on the other referendum, they will at once do away with
hand, by side-issues such as this issue, to all the difficulties of the smaller states in
take away the privileges they otherwise this matter. The Premier of Victoria ex-
would give.
This appears to me to be the pressed regret that he had been so candid
boiling down of the opinions of the gentle- with the Convention in regard to the con-
men who have taken such a prominent cessions, as he was pleased to term them,
part in this debate.
that were made to the demands of the
Mr. WISE : Why did the hon. member smaller states. For my part, I am pleased
play into the hands of the Premier of New to acknowledge the candour of the right
South Wales by voting against us the last hon. gentleman. I wish that the same
time?
candour had been imitated by many other
Mr. SOLOMON: I, unfortunately, did hon. members of this Convention. He has
not vote on the last occasion,
nothing whatever to regret in the action
Mr. WISE: I thought you said you he has taken, or in the candid way in
voted with the majority?
which he has given us his views. So much
Mr. SOLOMON: I did in the last divi- so, that I feel sure that, after his speech, a
sion ; but when the Convention met in majority of the Convention will now be
pre-
Adelaide, I did not have the opportunity pared to trust to the integrity of the right
of either voting or taking part in a debate hon. member and those of his colleagues
on this particular question.
who are with him; and, even though we
Mr. WISE: I was referring to the last leave a loophole by admitting the portion
division !
of the amendment he has now proposed,
Mr. SOLOMON: I do not think that without knowing what is to follow, we are
in the last division I played into the bands prepared to accept his assurance that, as
of the Premier of New South Wales. On far as he is concerned, he is willing to con-
the contrary, the effect of that division cede the dual referendum. I hope hon.
has been to bring the Premier of Victoria members, who are discussing this question
[Mr. Solomon.
Commonwealth of
747
.
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Azustralia Bill.
now, will see the importance of recognising if, also, we could have arranged for an ex-
that this old question of state rights is at ploration party to go through all the vari-
the bottom of the whole thing once again. ous libraries of the colonies, and burn all
We have been fighting this thing over day the works of reference on the American,
after day, fighting it over with all the Canadian, and Swiss constitutions. We
cleverness, and with all the diplomatic should at least have been saved some hours
dodges that could possibly be brought to of very eloquent dissertation, accompanied
bear, and we are now face to face once by enormous extracts from the works of
again with this question of whether the writers who did not write with a know-
numerical majority of the more largely ledge of our present circumstances, or our
populated states is to rule in this federation, present desires, but who wrote for an alto-
or whether the smaller states are to have gether different period, and different cir-
some degree of protection. This seems to cumstances. I am inclined to think that
me to be coming back to the whole crux the amendment of my hon. colleague, Mr.
of the question again. It is absolutely Symon, has placed certain members repre-
useless to grant the smaller states equal senting the larger colonies in a difficult
representation in the senate—to grant position. Coming to this Federal Conven-
it with a great deal of "hi-falutin" about tion with an earnest desire, not to senti-
the concession which is made, with a mentally profess to give and take, not to
great deal of condescension that I think
profess that I intend to meet every one in
is utterly unnecessary--because, after all,
a spirit of conciliation, but with an earnest
equal representation in the senate does not desire to show that I do feel that federal
amount to a very great deal, when we have spirit, and that I do desire to meet the neces-
an overwhelming majority from two of the sities of the representatives of other colonies
larger states in the popular chamber, the than my own, I feel very much inclined to
house of representatives--a house which agree with the Premier of Victoria, that in
commands the whole of the finances of the passing the amendment of my hon. and
federation, and which virtually commands learned friend, Mr. Symon, we have perhaps
the whole of the government. It is all placed a grave difficulty in the way of
very well to compare the position we are some of the members of the Convention.
taking up here with the position in America. Feeling this, and without being able to
We have had the American Constitution, bind the Premier of Victoria to any definite
and the Swiss Constitution, and slabs of the declaration as to the policy of his col-
Canadian Constitution hurled at us from leagues, I am satisfied to take his word,
all sides ad nauseain. We have had in view of the candid manner in which he
nothing else but this American Constitution has treated the Convention right through,
from all sides of the House, and to bolster the straightforward speech he made the
up every kind of opinion, and I have come day before yesterday on this question, a
to the conclusion that the American Consti. speech which-well, I do not wish to make
tution is such a many-sided one that it can comparisons—but a speech which will com-
be used to back upevery argument on every pare favourably for federal spirit, for
possible side of the federation question. I straightforward businesslike declaration of
am rather inclined to believe, with one hon. opinion, with any speech that has been
member whom I heard speak before, that it made since the Convention met-I say,
would have been a very good thingif the sta- in view of all that, I am inclined to
tistics of the various colonies had been burnt agree with the Premier of Victoria, and to
before we commenced this Convention, and give an opportunity to the Convention to
748
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
reconsider the decision that has been arrived side. Those of us who believe that, without
at with reference to the amendment of the any formal provision for deadlocks, the com-
hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, mon-sense of the people and their repre-
with a view, not for one instant of putting sentatives will find them a way out of
into this constitution a national or mass deadlocks, can also believe that if we
referendum, because that I shall oppose make a concession by putting on paper
tooth and nail right through, as inimical a provision for deadlocks, still the go-
in the highest degree to the best interests verning sense of the community will be
of the smaller states, but with a view of the real power, whatever you may place
giving an opportunity of proposing some- in your constitution. I am a little opposed
thing which may be less unacceptable, to the amendment of my right hon. friend,
which may be less injurious in the opinion Sir George Turner, because he puts it as
of the delegates who represent the larger an alternative to a dissolution. Before
colonies.
I go further, I should like to intimate the
The Hon, E. BARTON (New South intention I hold with regard to the vote
Wales) [2:55]: I should like to put it which has been given with respect to the
to the Convention whether either the pro- consecutive dissolutions of the two houses.
posal of the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, or Having spoken the other night in favour
the proposal of my right hon. friend, Sir of a double dissolution, I wish it to be under-
George Turner, should be accepted at the stood that I meant a simultaneous disso-
present time. In speaking to the ques- lution, and that I find myself quite unable
tion of conflict between the two houses
to agree to a proposal for consecutive dis-
not long ago, I stated that I declined to solutions, inasmuch as such a proposal in-
hold myself bound to any course at that volves what seems to me to be the penali-
stage. In what I shall do now I shall sing of one house for a disagreement to
in the same way refuse to hold myself which both are parties. I object to con-
bound to a final decision, because, what- secutive dissolutions I am not canvassing
ever anybody else may say, I conceive it the recent vote ; but only explaining my
to be our duty not to lend ourselves to intention for another reason. I believe
any course at this stage which might mean that they will not tend any more to an
a disastrous finality. I have been, I be- absolute solution of the question than will
lieve, suspected, since I spoke the other a concurrent dissolution ; that they will
night, of a leaning towards the referen- repeat the friction and the turmoil at two
dum. I have always been opposed to the separate times, and the result of that will
referendum as an engine of government, be to make the process much more expen-
and I am in principle opposed to the re- sive, and the solution not any nearer.
ferendum now, but I decline to say that I The Hon. S. FRASER : A double dissolu-
shall put myself in such a position, or that tion might result in the same effect !
any one of us should put himself in such a The Hon. E. BARTON: A double dis-
position as to say that he will sacrifice this solution might result in the differences of
constitution rather than submit to a re- the parties being still repeated, so might
ferendum of some sort. This is the point consecutive dissolutions, and I see no dif-
where there should be an approximation of ference in the probabilities in one case
views, where the value of the union of Aus- and the other. I will make it my duty,
tralia can be placed in the balance, and the when the proper time comes, to ask the
question of the danger of a certain instru- Convention to reconsider the vote which
mentof government can be put on the other has been given, and to ask the Committee
[Mr. Solomon.
Commonwealth of
749
[17. SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
whether they will not consent, as they are general referendum is a fair solution of
in favour of consecutive dissolutions of difficulties in which state interests are in-
both houses, to make the dissolution simul- volved. I am at one with my hon. friend
taneous.
in his proposal that the resort to some form
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Would of referendum should not take place until
it not be possible to have that retested after a double dissolution has been tried.
to-day ?
To that extent the hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
The Hon. E. BARTON: If by any and I are at one ; but I am seriously
means it is possible, I shall be very glad troubled about the justice of a general re-
to consider that proposition favourably; ferendum—what is called a national refer-
but I would remind my right hon. friend endum—in matters where state interests are
that a little lapse of time for thought, a involved. As I put it before, if you have
little time for reconsideration, is more two parties to a dispute, one of them being
likely to bring about a different result the people at large and the other being the
than to test the question again in hot blood. states, who, of course, have the people of
I have mentioned the feeling I hold about those states behind them—if you put it
the double dissolution because I wish to into the hands of one of the parties to
say that I have not so solid an objection settle the question, you are appealing to a
to the referendum--the dual referendum side which is entirely interested, and it is
--if it is preceded by that acknowledg- there indeed that the phrase used by my
ment of the principle of responsibility right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, this morning
which is involved in a double and simul- is truly applicable. That is really a case
taneous dissolution, as I should have if it of “heads I win, and tails you lose." In
were offered in the first resort or as a mere saying what I do, I wish to be entirely
alternative.
free from any understanding that I am
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : One of committing myself to any final course so
the reasons which induced me to agree to as to say that an appeal in this form, or
it is the very point the hon. and learned an appeal in that form, will be one which
member has put !
will be rejected by me, or which will not
The Hon. E. BARTON: As far as I be supported by me.
I wish to hold my-
am at present advised, I am strongly self entirely free in that way, because I
against placing in the hands of the govern-
think that is the duty of everyone.
ment the resort to the referendum, or the
Mr. Lyne: How will you get finality
resort to the dissolution—the power to unless you get a national referendum ?
accept the responsibility of their position
The Hon. E. BARTON : My answer
when it is altogether safe to them to accept
to that is: how will you get justice if you
it, and the power to escape from the re-
have it?
sponsibility of their position when they Mr. HIGGINS : No man can serve two
wish to run away. That is a proposition masters !
which I cannot entertain, and I am The Hon. E. BARTON: The finality
afraid that that is the proposal involved in all constitutions, I bave always pointed
in the amendment of my right hon. friend. out, is furnished by the sense of the people,
I am, on the other hand, at the present and it is furnished by the action of that
stage, against the proposal of my hon. sense in adopting ordinary constitutional
friend, Mr. Lyne, because, so far as I can methods of government. If we require to
see, there has not been sufficient argu- go further—and I for one at once concede
ment adduced to convince me that the that public opinion does require us to go
750
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
ness.
further—if I am to make that further step, view : if we have ultimately, under some
I must consider, and I am bound to con- circumstances which I cannot yet foresee,
sider, whether the step I am asked to take a national referendum, let us recollect that
is just. I cannot come to the conclusion, we may decide that a great public interest
at present, at any rate, that the national requires finality, and yet confess to our-
referendum will be a just solution of cer- selves that, for the sake of finality, we
tain of these affairs. I admit its effective- may be committing an injustice, although
.
It is the most effectual thing in the we may suppose the one end to be so vital
world. It is as effective as the guillotine, that its vast importance excuses the in-
but that is no argument that the guillotine justice of the means.
was always just. The Premier of New The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : That is
South Wales pointed out yesterday that a dangerous position !
he would be very glad to submit to have The Hon. E. BARTON: That is, as
the matters which gave rise to questions the hon. gentleman has suggested, a dan-
of state interest so defined in the constitu-
gerous position; I admit it; but there
tion that, with respect to them, the dual are very few vital positions connected
referendum would obtain, whilst with re- with the decisions upon questions of this
spect to all others which might be regarded kind. Upon the manufacture, because it
as purely national interests, the general or is a manufacture, of a constitution for a
national referendum should obtain.
federal commonwealth, there are very few
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: “State vital points wbich do not involve some
rights” was the expression I used ! danger. Do not imagine for a moment
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will concede that I am speaking now in favour of the
that state rights was the expression that general referendum.
general referendum. What I say is that
my right hon. friend used. I used the if it becomes necessary in the end to have,
expression "state interests” because I can resort to that referendum, properly guarded,
see that what is at the root of this discus- it will only be, I suppose, because we come
sion is not merely state rights, but also to the conclusion that the necessities of
state interests. No one knows better than federation, the necessities of our position,
the right hon. gentleman-the eloquence are more binding upon us than accurate
of whose speech, of course, I admired justice in every respect. In the meantime,
that it is exceedingly hard to define what until I have that proof, I shall be an ob-
is a national interest purely, and what is jector to the general referendum. When
a state interest purely. We may define the Premier of New South Wales spoke yes-
what are state rights—that is to say, what terday, he referred to nearly all the powers
are the rights of legislation of states. We of legislation embodied in clause 52 of the
may leave undefined altogether what are bill, with the view of pointing out that it
national interests; but we shall not escape uld be a desirable thing if those matters
from this difficulty: that, in carrying out in which state rights were involved could
the legislation of a federal commonwealth, be indicated so that upon them we might
there must and will be repeated instances consent to a dual referendum, whilst upon
in which the decision of questions remitted those matters which were purely national
to the commonwealth must gravely and interests we might enforce the claim of a
perhaps vitally affect state interests. That general referendum. The difficulty of this
is the one point from which we cannot question, as I said, must be manifest to the
escape, and we must, in coming to our con- right hon. gentleman, for the mere reason
clusion, at any rate, hold this position in that those definitions are nearly impossible,
The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
751
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
will say,
for the very reason that the variety of cir- where my right hon. friend stopped short.
cumstances and affairs which arise in a Who tells us that we are to take is it a
federal commonwealth render it impossible national or is it a dual referendum about
for you to predict with reference to a par- this: The control and regulation of the navi-
ticular power of legislation whether or not gation of the river Murray, and the use of
the interests of one or all the states will not the waters thereof from where it first formas
be involved. If I were challenged to name the boundary between Victoria and New
some of the powers with reference to which South Wales to the sea. Dowe want there a
the power of a general or a dual referen- dual or national referendum ? Do we want
dum might be conceded without any conse- a dual or national referendum as to the
quences, I could namesomething like thirty control of railways with respect to trans-
powers in regard to which you might, if port for the military purposes of the com-
you were not a sensible man, say, “Yes, I monwealth ?. I am sure the right hon.
will have a general referendum ;" or, “yes, gentleman will concede to me that, in
I will have a dual referendum”; but as nearly all, if not all, the sub-clauses to
to which, if you are a sensible man, you which I have referred, it would almost be
“ If I consent to any sort of re-
farce to take a referendum of any kind,
ferendum in matters of this kind I shall simply because we cannot imagine a state
be a fool.” That is the position of a number of political friction which would divide
of the powers mentioned in the 52nd clause. the commonwealth through its two legis-
Let me refer hon. gentlemen to questions of lative chambers into irreconcilable parties
this sort. Who wants a national or a dual as to any questions of this sort. What
referendum as to the question of posts and is left ?
telegraphs? Whowants either sort of refer- The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is it,
endum as to the purchase by the govern- come to the point!
ment of shells and gunpowder-munitions The Hon. E. BARTON: I am coming
of war? Who wants a national or dual to the point; I think I generally do. Then
referendum about the question whether our we will concede, as it does not much mat-
Astronomer Royal should have a station ter, that the right hon. gentleman is pre-
on Mount Kosciusko for astronomical or pared to give us——that is to say, the people
meteorological observations ? Who wants of the commonwealth- -a dual referendum
à double or single referendum as to ques- with respect to any one of these matters
tions of navigation, shipping, ocean beacons, I have spoken of, as to which I do not
quarantine, census and statistics, weights think any one wants a referendum of any
and measures, patents, and the incorpora- sort.
tion of banks ? Who wants a national or The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I have
dual referendum as to these : Bankruptcy not said a word about the dual referendum
and insolvency, copyrights and patents of in praise or blame !
inventions, naturalisation and aliens—that The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not saying
is the naturalisation of aliens, parental that my right hon.friend praised or blamed
rights, and the custody and guardianship the dual referendum, but he asked for a
of infants? Is it necessary to go on to "the definition. Going through all these sub-
service and execution throughout the com- clauses, he asked for a definition so that
monwealth of the civil and criminal pro- we might get to the matters in which state
cess, the influx of criminals, and external rights are concerned, and give to those a
affairs and treaties? Of course these are dual referendum, whilst he would reserve
purely national matters, and I think this is the matters in which national rights are
752
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
alone concerned, and give to them a general The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Hear,
referendum. I put out of hand a number hear !
of these sub-clauses, and I come to others : The Hon. E. BARTON: But we are
The regulation of trade and commerce with not going, if that is what my right hon.
other countries, and among the several states. friend's interjection implies, to rub out
Does anyone tell me that the states are not the work we have done and to commence
interested in that? " Customs and excise again.
and bounties." Who is it who contends The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Not the
that the states are not interested in that? good work !
Raising money by any other mode or The Hon. E. BARTON: I say we are
system of taxation," " Borrowing money not going to rub out the work we have
on the public credit of the commonwealth," done and commence again, although with
Military and naval defence, “Immigra- reference to the vote which has just been
tion and emigration," the whole question taken, I think we might have an oppor-
of alien and coloured labour, the question tunity for reconsideration to that extent
of the taking over by the commonwealth I shall be glad to assist my right hon. and
with the consent of a state, of the railways learned friend. The second sub-clause is
of that state. That is a question upon which "customs and excise, and bounties," and the
it will be admitted great disturbance or third, "raising money by any other mode or
jealousy might arise on the part of the system of taxation." I suppose that that,
other states who might consider that the of all things, is what my right hon. and
taking over by the commonwealth of the learned friend would describe as a national
railway system of one state, while the rail- question upon which a general referendum
way systems of the other states were left might properly take place.
might properly take place. Now, let us
alone, might create a situation in which project ourselves, if our bodies be not too
they had every right to have à say. Then, corporeal for that purpose, a little into the
as I am reminded by my hon. and learned future, and imagine the position of the
friend, Mr. Isaacs, there is the public debt first parliament of the commonwealth.
let us look at these things in a reason- Will it not be necessary for that parlia-
able manner.
Let us consider now the ment to raise money–
I will not say by
second part of these sub-clauses.
any other mode or system of taxation
An Hon. MEMBER : Do you think you
besides customs—to carry on the govern-
will get an intelligent answer from a ment? Under this draft constitution,
national referendum on both of these power is conferred upon it to raise that
classes of subjects ?
revenue ; but it will have the task and
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will give an duty of collecting the whole of the revenue
answer to that question directly.
of customs and excise for the whole of the
The Right Hon. G.H.REID: Will a state states; and on the very face of the matter
referendum give an intelligent answer ? it will be conceded that that revenue will
The Hon. E. BARTON: If we are going leave it with a large surplus, which must
to quarrel to this extent that one-half of be distributed among the several states.
us think that a national referendum is of
A government may come into power which
no use, while the other half think that a may say, “ We conceive it to be our duty
state referendum is no good, then we have to raise sufficient revenue for the purposes
very much of a quarrel in which the old of the government of the commonwealth,
adage of rubbing it all out and beginning and also for the purpose of handing back
again would have application.
to the various states exactly that which
(The Hona E, Barton.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
753
Another govern-
1
they possessed before the federal govern- on the other hand, agree to such a scheme
ment was instituted.”
of direct taxation as, while saving the
ment may come in before or after the solvency of the state, might implicate the
government to which I have just referred, solvency of most of its members. What
and they may say this, “ All we are con- is the answer to that position ? "That if
cerned with is the maintenance of the ever there was a question in the world in
commonwealth ; let us raise sufficient which the interest, life, government, and
money from customs and excise to enable financial policy of a state was concerned, it
us to carry on the business of the common- is this very question. Yet we are told
wealth ; after that is done, we are not con- that that is a question upon which there is
cerned how small the surplus may be which to be a national referendum.' The very
we hand over to the states, because, recol- vitality of the state is concerned, and
lect, we are a national government. We it is not to have a voice in it by way of
have only to busy ourselves with national taking part in a dual referendum.
concerns."
An Hon. MEMBER: We have provided
An Hon. MEMBER : They would not last for that in the statute !
long!
The Hon. E. BARTON: How can it
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not know be provided for in the statute ? I do not
about that. But if you give a national re- think my hon. friend has quite followed
ferendum, what does my hon. friend say to me. The statute provides that revenue
that?
which may be left over shall be returned
An Hon. MEMBER : We are not likely from the commonwealth ; but it does not
to give it!
provide what shall be left over. If too
The Hon. E. BARTON: Does my hon. little be left over to carry on the affairs of
friend not see which way the cat jumps a state it may involve a question of its
now? Suppose a government saying that solvency—the solvency of every one of the
their concern was to raise a sufficient re- citizens in the state may be involved.
venue for the purposes of the common- Mr. SOLOMON: As the bill stands we
wealth—admitting that a large surplus provide, not only for the return of the sur-
must necessarily remain for distribution plus, but also for a limit to the expenditure!
among the states—that their concern was The Hon. E. BARTON: Suppose we
not to make that surplus sufficient to meet leave that clause out, we still have the fact
the ordinary needs of the states, the states that the surplus has to go back to the
themselves having their ordinary powers of several states, and it is subject to the de.
taxation. That might be the opinion of termination of the parliament how much
the government of the day. I do not money may be raised, and how much money
quarrel with the position, because I am not there will be to go back. It will rest with
arguing on party lines. But let us assume the house of representatives, and with the
that position. Then we shall see that the senate, therefore, to say what the revenue
smallness, relatively, of the surplus to be raised is to be, and what the amount re-
distributed among the states would lead to turned is to be.
the enforcement upon the several states of An Hon. MEMBER: Only for five years!
à certain financial policy. They would
The Hon. E. BARTON: There is a five-
either have to submit to their inability to year period laid down in the bill, but there
meet their financial obligations—and that is also a provision for a per capita distri-
they must avoid, because it would mean bution after five years, and the remarks I
the bankruptcy of the state-or they must, have made apply to both positions.
754
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
An Hon. MEMBER : There is a provision breeches pocket, if he is a taxpayer in an
up to a certain time!
ordinary community, and of taxing two
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is where breeches pockets if he is a taxpayer in a
the difficulty lies. While there is a pro- federal community. I think I have said
vision up to a certain time, the difficulty enough to show that if the general re-
to be provided for in the affairs of the ferendum is to be reserved for those
commonwealth is one which will be eternal. questions which are purely national in
It will last as long as the commonwealth their nature for those questions which
lasts. How can it be urged that if the involve state interests—then the finances
amount to be returned is a matter for the of the federation is one question that
determination of the commonwealth par- intimately involves state interests; and
liament, the question involved in the re- therefore, as between the two forms of refer-
turn being perhaps a question of the vital- endum, it should be the subject of a dual
ity of the states—how can it be urged that referendum. I do not wish to take up
the states as represented in the senate are much longer time on this subject. I realise
not deeply interested ? How can it be as fully as any one in this Chamber does,
urged that the question is one upon which the difficulties to which we are exposed. I
a national referendum shall take place am pointing out the difficulties, and it
when, in its very root and depth, it is ob- may be supposed that I have spoken with
viously the question of all questions in some warmth on this subject, but that is
which the states are most vitally interested, my usual mode of speech. I do not wish
because if finance be government, this is a hon, members to think for a moment that
question not only of the government of the "I am carried away with any enthusiasm
commonwealth but of the government of one way or the other on the question; but
the states ? Now, I do not speak here to I wish to lay rightly before this Conven-
throw difficulties in the way.
tion the difficulties of the whole situation
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Who as they affect my mind. Upon the con-
finds the money?
siderations that I have been advancing, I
The Hon. E. BARTON: The citizens say this, that, for the sake of the success of
find the money ; but does my hon. friend this constitution, I am prepared to accept
look at the states in such a one-eyed way some form of referendum which will be
that he can see only the citizens as citizens safeguarded by the prior application of
of the commonwealth, and forget that they a double and simultaneous dissolution
are citizens and taxpayers in the various -- that I cannot, as at present advised,
states? We must not look at things in both give my acceptance to the form of referen-
ways or we shall squint. We want to see dum called the dual referendum. However,
both things at one and the same time. I recognise, although I do not bind myself
There is no escaping from this aspect of down, that, as between the two forms of
the question : that a taxpayer pays to the referendum, while the dual referendum
commonwealth simply as a citizen of the may not be the more effective of the two,
commonwealth, for this reason that he is it is, so far as I can see, the more just. I
the same person who pays taxes to the am speaking now of the application of
state as a citizen of the state, and the ques- these two forms of referendum purely on
tion with him is: what is his total quan- such matters as I last read from the con-
tum of taxation-how much has he to pay stitution—that is to say, such matters as
with one hand, and how much with the defence, the public debt, the regulation of
other? It may be a question of taxing one trade and commerce, immigration and emi-
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
755
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
port it.
gration, and so on. All these are matters in each state shall be counted, and applied
in which I concede the states to be largely according to principles which we know-
and in some cases vitally interested; and, then I shall be found, as a matter of
seeing that, I take up the challenge that necessity, under the circumstances of this
has been thrown down-I point out that constitution, supporting such a proposition.
those are the real matters of vital state The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I am
interest; and, if it is conceded that those thoroughly in accord with the hon. and
are the matters specially adapted to the learned member !
dual referendum, it seems to me that there Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [3.29] :
ought to benohesitation in saying, if the dual Both in Adelaide and here I have con-
referendum is granted at all, that it should sistently endeavoured to take one course
cover those matters. I have already said
the shortest road towards union. In
that I do not feel myself at liberty to sup- doing so I have had to differ from many
port the amendment moved by my right of those with whom I usually act in local
hon, friend, Sir George Turner. So far as politics. I have had to act in opposition
it leaves open the dual referendum, I would to some of my colleagues in this Conven-
be inclined to support it; but so far as it tion; but, although a representative of one
offers an alternative to dissolution, instead of the larger states, I have endeavoured
of insisting on the prior application of the all through to view the matter from the
double dissolution, for reasons often given standpoint of the representatives of the
by me, I cannot, on that ground, sup- smaller states. I may say, therefore, that
all who listen to me will give me credit
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The for speaking with great feeling when I ex.
hon, and learned gentleman might test it press myself, for the first time, either in
by moving to amend my amendment, so as our deliberations here or in Adelaide, as
to provide for a dissolution !
being discouraged by what has taken place;
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will have a and I hope that the leader of the Conven-
look at the amendment presently. On tion will find an opportunity—an early op-
the other hand, with regard to the awend- portunity-of again taking a vote on the
ment of my hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, I be- matter that was recently submitted to the
lieve in it so far as it gives the referen- Convention. The vote that has already
dum as a condition subsequent to the ap- been given places me, as I believe it places
plication of the double dissolution. But others, in a position of great difficulty in
because it gives a general referendum upon regard to the amendments which have
matters which so far appear to me to be been moved by the hon. member, Mr.
inexplicably involved in state interests, I Lyne, and the Right Hon. Sir George
cannot accept it as a general referendum. Turner. For my part, I do not hesitate
If, then, the proposition becomes so modi- to declare myself an advocate of and a
fied that we should have a double dissolu- believer in unification. I have always
tion provided for, and if the application of believed in unification. In 1891, when
that double dissolution fails as a means of Sir Henry Parkes first brought the project
reconciling the parties at conflict, and if of federation into the arena of practical
it is further proposed that there shall then politics, he proposed in this Chamber a
be a dual referendum-a referendum taken, scheme of unification - he proposed, I
of course, at once, as one vote, but in think, from that chair, a scheme based on
which the vote of the whole majority shall the Canadian model, which would have
be counted, and the vote of the majority meant unification. That scheme was unani-
756
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
For my
mously rejected, and Sir Henry Parkes almost throughout this Chamber - that
acquiesced in its rejection; and, from that if the responsible ministry of the day
day to this, every portion of Australia has were given a complete control of the par-
accepted the decision then arrived at. I, liamentary machine, then responsible go-
too, have loyally accepted that decision. I vernment, as we know it, would operate.
would be glad if Victoria had never separ- It was also seen that they could not get
ated from New South Wales. Iwould like to that complete control unless they had the
see Tasmania annexed to this colony, and I power of dissolving each chamber, and
would like South Australia to form part of after the broad, clear, and conciliatory
our western boundary; and I would not speeches of the hon. and learned member,
be averse to extending the jurisdiction of Mr. Barton, and the Right Hon. Sir George
New South Wales to the farthest west of Turner, the evening before last, if the
this continent; but I recognise, and have voting had been taken then I believe
always recognised, that we cannot frame that that view would have commended it-
any scheme of federation except by recog- self to a large majority of this assembly.
nising the equal existence—the broad, in- Circumstances have altered now.
dependent, national existence—of all these part, I deeply regret, as I regretted yes-
colonies. Recognising that, I have loyally terday, that everybody in this Chamber
endeavoured, all through our deliberations did not see that the course proposed by
here, to give effect to that belief; and I the Right Hon.. Sir George Turner was
have refused, not only as a matter of the sound one ; and I regret that the right
tactics, but, as it seemed to me, as a matter hon. member, Mr. Reid, felt it his duty
of common honesty, to make any effort to to make a speech which, however eloquent
do indirectly that which I declined to and powerful it might have been, did not
do directly—to take away with one hand appear to me, calculated to advance the
that power of equal representation which interests of federation in this chamber.
we had given with the other. I admit No doubt the right hon. member acted,
that in taking that course, many of us as we have all been acting here, with the
were running a great risk, not from any desire to advance, and with the con-
fear that the smaller states would abuse scientious conviction that what was being
their powers; but because, in giving an done would best advance, the interests of
equal authority to a house composed of the cause. The representatives of the
representatives of groups of population smaller states may have thought that the
with that composed of representatives of members of the New South Wales repre-
the whole people, we ran that risk which sentation as a whole were prepared to
you, sir, indicated in your opening speech derogate from that which has already been
at Adelaide the risk of being unable done—to go back from the conciliatory
to carry on the government of Australia attitude assumed by the right hon. mem-
along the well-known lines of responsi- ber, Sir George Turner, and the right hon.
ble government. The problem which we member, Mr. Reid. So far as I am con-
therefore tried to solve was how to re- cerned, however, I have no intention of
concile the continuance and active bene- acting in that way, and I do not think
ficial exercise of responsible government that the right hon. member, Mr. Reid,
under the constitution of a federal state. had any other intention. Any feeling which
We believed that we had arrived at a may have been aroused—and I know that
solution the day before yesterday, when 'feeling was aroused, although the right
it was recognised—I believe recognised hon. member may not be aware of it
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
757
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Surely carry on, when the whole machinery of go-
hon. members did not vote because of their vernment may be disorganised by a majority
feelings!
in another house, representing a minority
Mr. WISE : Any feeling which was of the people? The reason why that does
aroused was caused by a misapprehension of not operate now is that every state is a
what was intended. If the vote which has unified state. It is not where there is that
been taken is not reversed--though I hope divergence of interest, each of them un-
it will be--the position in which I shall willing to yield, each of them justified in
find myself is this : As an advocate of holding out
unification I would like unification if I Mr. McMILLAN : Surely it is no worse
could get it. If the question of unifica- than if there were no safety-valve at all,
tion is put directly to the vote, I shall and the hon. and learned member was
vote with the ayes to see how many are in willing to do without a safety-valve !
favour of it. If I were a representative of Mr. WISE: I think that it is worse.
a small state, I should be against unifica- Although I made this proposal myself in
tion ; but I have been released by the Adelaide, reflection, and, I may add, the
vote which was taken to-day from any speech of the right hon. member, Mr.
necessity of recognising this union as a
Kingston, have convinced me that I am
federal compact—that is, as a compact be-
wrong If there were any credit or
tween states—because that vote places the kudos to be gained, I should be proud to
dissolution of the house of representatives,
have embodied the proposal in the consti-
not under the control of the responsible tution as a proposal of my own; but I
ministry of the day, but under the control
now believe it to be an unsound proposal.
of the states. It places it in the power of
the states to dissolve the house containing Worse than nothing!
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
the representatives of the people, instead
Mr. WISE: Worse than nothing.
of putting it in the power of the represen-
tatives of the people to dissolve the body
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I
do not say that it would be worse than
composed of the representatives of the
states. While I am willing to agree to a
nothing. I only say that the hon. and
learned rnember means that it would be
federal compact which will recognise and
balance the interests upon either side, anı
worse than nothing !
I bound to submit to an arrangement which
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to
the members of the Committee that we
will put it in the power of the representa-
tives of the states that is, in the power of
have agreed to an amendment, and ought
not, therefore, to re-discuss the question
a minority- to force the representatives of
which it involves. We cannot arrive at
the great body of the people to go to the
inconsistent conclusions in the same com-
country ?
An Hon. MEMBER: It cannot be !
mittee stage.
Mr. WISE: It cannot be. But putting
Mr. WISE: I would ask whether I should
altogether on one side the possible diver-
be in order in moving this amendment if
gence
of interest between states and people,
the Right Hon. Sir George Turner will
is such a scheme consistent with the prac-
withdraw his amendment? Myamendment
would read as follows:-
tice of responsible government as we know
Provided that in lieu of dissolving the house
it to-day? Is it possible for any ministry,
of representatives alone in the first instance,
which owes its whole existence to the pre-
both houses of parliament may be dissolved
sence of its supporters in the lowerhouse, to simultaneously –
3 G
758
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: That The Hon. S. FRASER : I think we have
question has been decided !
already decided that a dissolution of the
Mr. WISE :
house of representatives must take place
And if after such dissolution the proposed
before there can be a dissolution of the
law fails to pass with or without amendment, senate. I hold that we cannot go back
the proposed law may be referred to the direct
upon that vote.
determination of the people by a referendum as
hereinafter specified.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We
have not decided that a dissolution of the
The CHAIRMAN : I do not think I can
house of representatives must take place.
put that amendment.
We have decided that if a dissolution takes
Mr. WISE: I would point out that we
place something may follow. That is my
have not come to any direct determination reading of the amendment.
against having a double simultaneous dis-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
solution. All we have ciecided is that in
Something else must follow !
a single case which may arise dissolutions
An HON. MEMBER: Must follow !
shall follow in a certain order. I not
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Not
propose that in every case, and not neces-
necessarily. The amendment provides
sarily as the result of a disagreement be. that, if the house of representatives has
tween the two houses, the Ministry shall
been dissolved, and certain things happen,
have power to dissolve both houses simul-
then the governor-general may dissolve the
taneously. I venture to think that the
senate; but what is proposed now is that,
amendment is not inconsistent with our
instead of having simply a dissolution of
previous decision, whether you regard the
the senate under certain conditions, there
power as optional or as a general power.
shall be at once a dissolution of both
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : On the houses. It is quite consistent to say that
point of order I would suggest that the instead of the government of the day hav-
whole clause is under discussion. An ing to dissolve the senate after certain
amendment has been carried ; but surely things have been done, the government of
it will not be out of order to suggest a the day shall have another power alto-
provision which would, in fact, be an alter- gether-that is, to dissolve both houses at
native to the provision contained in the the same time.
amendinent. The amendment which was The Hon. E. BARTON : I would point
moved by the hon. and learned member, out that the Committee has decided that,
Mr. Symon, provides for a dissolution of if the senate reject or fail to pass a proposed
the two houses, while the proposal which law, which has been passed by the house of
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise, representatives by an absolute majority,
now puts forward provides an alternative or if they fail to pass it in another session,
:scheme; and how can we advance argu- the governor-general can dissolve the house
ments in favour of an alternative scheme of representatives, which is a power he pos-
without referring to the scheme already sesses already; but the amendment goes
adopted ? I would suggest that, in view of on to say that, if within six months after
the fact that we cannot discuss an alter- the dissolution, the house of representa-
native scheme without referring to the tives again pass the proposed law, and the
scheme already adopted, it would be highly senate again reject or fail to pass it, &c.,
inconvenient for you, sir, to rule that hon. the governor-general may dissolve the
members were precluded from referring to senate. Now, that is altogether a new
the amendment already carried.
power which the governor-general had not
t
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
759
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
before. This amendment is to give the the additional words that the hon. mem-
governor -general additional alternative ber, Mr. Wise, desires to insert. If I
powers. He can exercise the powers cumu- withdraw my amendment altogether, and
latively or alternatively. The question is the Committee reject the insertion of my
whether in the same clause, by an additional words and his words, I shall be in a diffi-
proposition, the Committee can go on to culty. The hon. gentleman will gain his
confer additional powers to be exercised at object, with which I thoroughly agree, by
his option cumulatively or alternatively. first of all creating a blank; then I will
I submit the Committee has clearly that propose my amendment, and he can pro-
power.
pose to amend my amendment before it is
The CHAIRMAN: When I first heard the
put.
amendment read out, I came to the con- Mr. WISE : I quite agree with that. I
clusion that it could not be put ; but on suggest that we can create the blank with-
looking at the amendment since it has out being committed to anything. Then
been handed in, I have come to the con- the discussion can take place on the new
clusion that it can be put. This amendment proposal put from the chair. If my amend-
is an alternative; in lieu of dissolving the ment is carried I shall vote for the dual
house of representatives the proposed law referendum afterwards.
may be referred to the direct determina- Mr. SYMON: Where does the Right Hon.
tion of the people by a dual referendum. Sir George Turner's amendment come in }
It will be seen that this amendment now The CHAIRMAN: After the word “sen-
suggested is very similar to the amend- ate"- that is, provided the hon. member,
ment suggested by the Right Hon. Sir G. Mr. Lyne's amendment is negatived.
Turner, except that it is more definite; it Mr. Symon: Sir George Turner's amend-
is simply giving a choice to the governor- ment is to substitute an alternative in the
general—which I presume will be the go- shape of the dual referendum. Now, I
vernment of alternative action, and I understand the hon. member, Mr. Wise,
think it can be put.
has moved to substitute an alternative in
Mr. WISE: Without further words, I the shape of a joint dissolution to be
now. move my amendment.
followed as may be
The CHAIRMAN : The Right Hon. Sir The CHAIRMAN : Not a joint dissolution
George Turner must first withdraw his
a joint referendum.
amendment.
Mr. WISE: My amendment will come
Mr. WISE: I do not think it is neces- as an amendment to that of Sir George
sary, as the amendment is to strike out the Turner's.
word “if.” Mine will come as an amend- Mr. SYMON: I do not wish to interpose
ment to the Right Hon. Sir George Turner's the slightest obstacle to the reconsideration
amendment.
of this matter on a point of order. We are
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
pro- not here to seize a victory, or anything of
pose to insert certain words if a blank is that kind. Weare here to negotiate. If argi-
created. It is quite competent for my hon. ments can be used later on to show injus-
friend to say, "I do not want to insert tice, we are bound to reconsider them. As
these particular words; I want to insert far as I am concerned, I am perfectly satis-
a modification of these words." Some hon. fied; but I want to point out that this new
members may be prepared to insert the amendment is inconsistent in the shape in
words I have proposed, and some may be which it is submitted with the amendment
prepared to insert those words, including we have already passed. If we are to have
760
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
1
I re-
a reconsideration, would it not be better to not unification, but federation. If we do
adopt another course, and I am sure the anything else I am quite sure we shall
hon. member, Mr. Barton, would be able do that which the electors of the majority
to suggest some course by the suspension of the colonies will have nothing to do
of standing orders, or in some other way, to
with when we have finished our labours.
bring the precise point under consideration. Having said that much, I want next to say
The CHAIRMAN : I think I can put the that, wbile I approach the question from an
precise point quite well. The hon. mem- altogether different standpoint, I agree very
ber, Mr. Lyne, has moved an amendment. much with the conclusions to which the
The Right Hon. Sir George Turner has hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise, came.
moved to strike out the word " if” in that But before I deal with those conclusions
amendment in order to insert other words I want to deprecate just one sentence or
in lieu of it. Then Mr. Wise has moved two at the most in the very excellent speech
an amendment to the words proposed to be the right hon, member, the Premier of Vic-
inserted by the Right Hon. Sir George toria, made early in the afternoon.
Turner.
gret that that right hon. gentleman made it
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I would sug- appear that the decision which we arrived
gest that the hon. member, Mr. Wise, at a short time since was arrived at by a
should not more his amendment yet. If block vote of the smaller colonies against
we decide on excising the word "if" from the larger colonies. Although I voted on
Mr. Lyne's amendment, then it will be the same side as the hon. member, I want
time for the Right Hon. Sir George to put it so clearly that no one may be
Turner to move his amendment, and after misled by what takes place here, that'that
that for Mr. Wise to move his.
vote would never have been carried in the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South way it was but for the fact that four dele-
Australia) (3-55]: As the point of order is gates from the larger colonies voted on the
disposed of, there are two or three state- other side.
ments I have to make with reference to The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That
the debate that has taken place. In the fact having been brought to my notice, I
first place, the hon. member, Mr. Wise, willingly withdraw the observations to
who spoke a few moments ago, announced which the hon. member has referred !
his position to be that of a member in The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I knew
favour of consolidation.
that no one would be more ready than the
Mr. WISE: If I could get it !
right hon. member to do that when the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The con- matter was explained. But I will con-
solidation of the states into one unified clude my sentence—but for the fact that
nation. I do not approach the question the motion was carried by reason of four
at all from that point of few. I approach delegates from the larger colonies being on
it from an entirely opposite point of view. the opposite side, and to make up for them
I am not in favour of unification ; I am in -to say nothing of any other colonies-
favour of federation. And besides that, I there were four delegates from South Aus-
take it that the mandate which we have to tralia voting on the same side as the hon.
obey in coming here is to frame a consti- member. A word or two on the merits
tution, not for unification at all, but for of the question itself. I hope we shall not
federation. I hope, therefore, in all our at the present stage complicate matters so
discussions, in all the resolutions to which exceedingly as they would be complicated
we come, we shall keep steadily in mind, by accepting either the amendment of the
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
761
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
hon. member, Mr. Wise, or that of the The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The hon.
Right Hon. Sir George Turner. It seems member is giving away the whole position.
to me that we have made up our minds If that is so— if either house might be
that we are willing to allow an opportunity equally in the wrong—why choose one and
for another vote on the question; and that penalise it before the other?
being the case, why make the position The Right Hon. G. H. REID: And when
more complicated than it is? Iỉ we are that would decide nothing !
going to take another vote, I would sug- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Very often
gest to the leader of the Convention that a difficulty might arise out of a measure
there is no reason why we should not re- originated in the senate. The senate, ac-
port progress for half an hour, or some cording to these proposals, would not have
other time that he may deem sufficient, to go to its constituents at all.
It might
and then, when the President is in the throw down the bone of contention, and
chair, get the standing orders suspended, cause the whole trouble, knowing very well
so that we may, right away, before we get that, before it could be touched, the other
into any further difficulties, reconsider the branch of the legislature niust be sent to
vote of this morning; and I earnestly its constituents, and have to undergo all
hope that, on reconsideration, there will the cost and toil of a general election. It
be at least enough come over to reverse is intolerable that one house, which would
the decision.
be free, at least for a time, from the con.
An Hon. MEMBER : I hope not! sequence of its act, should be in a position
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I was not to take such action as that to which I have
going to discuss it, but I am bound to dis- referred. If the two houses disagree, the
cuss it now. I say I hope there will be least we can do is to send them to their
enough come over to reverse the decision constituents. If we saw a couple of men
arrived at. I hope that will be so in balf
in dispute in the street, and the dispute
an hour. If every hon. member bas made came to blows, we should not expect a
up his mind, nothing I can say will alter policeman to take one up, and, after he
a vote. But the matter is so immensely had served whatever term the bench might
important that, even if I cannot alter a sentence him to, then that search would
single yote, I must still put the points as be made for the other. We should expect
they appear to me. If the two houses are the policeman to take them up together,
in conflict, if there is any matter of con- and treat them both alike. I should
cern in which they cannot agree, or will like to know who has the right to say
not agree, it is altogether unfair to assume which of the houses is in the wrong when
that either house is wrong. What right they disagree? Besides, there is even a
have we to assume that the house of repre- more serious matter. What do these pro-
sentatives is wrong? What right have longed controversies mean? I mean pro-
we to assume that the senate is wrong? longed controversies such as would be
If they disagree, why not send them both likely to arise out of a deadlock. These
to the only persons who can say whether things can only come once in a lifetime,
they are truly doing their duty and repre- perhaps not then. They can only come on
senting their constituents? It is said that questions which are of vital importance.
the house of representatives is more likely I cannot conceive of a serious deadlock
to be wrong than the other. Now, I doubt arising out of anything else than a very
that altogether.
important matter. Now, is it tolerable
Mr. SYMON: Oh, no, not at all!
that if a very important question is raised,
762
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
and a dispute arises over it, the whole The Hon. H. DOBSON: Common-sense
commonwealth from one end of Australia is the safety-valve !
to the other, not forgetting Tasmania, The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: We have
should be torn and troubled by dispute, to provide not only for conditions when
which cannot be settled in one election, common-sense will prevail, we have to pro-
which, perhaps, cannot be settled in two vide for conditions when common-sense
elections ? Consider the steps contem- may be temporarily suspended. We have
plated before a deadlock can be settled-
known such a case.
first, two sessions of the parliament, then The Hon. J. H. Howe: This is an argu-
the dissolution of the house of representa-
ment for delay !
tives, then the dissolution of the senate, The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Quite so;
after that a. dual referendum, Why, it and no one would wish the matter to be
means, not months-if it were months it settled in a day or two.
But there is a
might be tolerable—it means that for years
world of difference between a reasonable
· the commonwealth would be torn from time-six months, if you like,--and three
end to end, people set against each other, years; and we have seen, too, that the
and all sorts of trouble and expense in- various suggestions before us may mean
curred, for the sake of settling a dispute the continuing of this most serious agita-
which surely ought to be settled in some tion, wasting the time and energy of the
other manner.
people, wasting their money on a continu-
An Hon. MEMBER : Why not leave it
ance of this agitation for, perhaps, in the
whole, nearly three years.
as it is?
An Hon. MEMBER : To keep the Go-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Why not
vernment in power !
leave the engine without a safety-valve? I
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: There is
am not in favour of that. An hon, mem-
no Government in power which dare do
ber says there is no precedent. I cannot
such things as this..
help that. But I deny that. I gave a
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Does the hon.
precedent for it the day before yesterday, member forget that disputes which have
when I quoted from a South Australian
agitated the political world have taken one,
statute, to show that we have provided in
two, three, and four years to settle ?
that colony for dealing with deadlocks.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : So much
There is a precedent for dealing with dead-
the worse for the countries in which the
locks elsewhere.
disputes occurred.
An Hon. MEMBER: Not a referendum !
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Nothing of the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: No, but kind !
a safety-valve ; and what hon. members, to The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : If disputes
my astonishment, voted against yesterday have happened in the smaller colonies
was the provision for a safety-valve. In which have been serious enough to take
the British Constitution there is a safety- two or three years to settle, how much
valve—they can put in more peers. In more serious will be disputes that will
the New South Wales Constitution there arise in the commonwealth, where there
is a safety-valve—they can put more mem- will be, not hundreds of thousands of
bers in the nominee house. While these people, but millions of people? I think it
safety-valves exist, are we going to frame ought to be quite unnecessary to argue in
a federal constitution without any safety- favour of having some form of safety-valve,
valve at all?
and it ought not to be necessary to argue
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
763
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
in favour of having the thing which would the making of some provision which would
lead to the most speedy and certain deter- prevent such an event as we saw in the
mination on the whole question.
United States some years ago, when that
An Hoy. MEMBER: The more haste the terrible civil war took place ? I can con-
less speed!
ceive that the heated feelings of the public,
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Within especially if we go through all these stages
reasonable limits. There is only one point of dissolution after dissolution, referendum
more with which I want to deal. I took after referendum, may be so fanned to a
a position the day before yesterday which blaze that the conflagration nay be as
has received some criticism; a position serious in comparison to our population as
which placed me for the moment in anta- was that in the United States. I plead
gonism with twenty-nine out of thirty with the Convention to take some step
representatives of the smaller colonies ; to provide a settlement which will render
and ile I am speaking on this question such a state of things impossible.
of deadlocks, I wish to say a few words, The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
if further words be necessary to justify the Australia) [4.10]: I have none of the fears
position I then took up. It has been put of my colleague, who has just resumed his
by our leader, Mr. Barton, to-day that the seat. The safety-valves he spoke about are
question was one between a settlement created in the governments which we know
and justice. Now, we are here consider- as constitutional governments by provid-
ing this matter as the representatives of ing judicious checks on basty legislation.
separate colonies. In this Convention we My hon. friend has just been arguing that
are not federated, we have not the federal these most necessary and legitimate checks
spirit upon us, we have not begun to culti- are in themselves dangerous to society,
vate that patriotism towards the larger likely to produce rebellion, and to land us
country of the commonwealth that is to
in civil war.
Such an argument, however
be. To each one of us the affairs of excellent it might be and apposite to the
our own colony seemed more important, present occasion, if carried to its legitimate
perhaps I think they do in some sense conclusion, would make one house one suf-
rightly-than the affairs of other colonies. frage necessary in every colony, and would
Today we are considering this matter as make all the checks which our experi-
outsiders. But supposing, if we can, that ence of the world have shown to be needed
we are to-day not outsiders, but are to be placed on hasty legislation illusory
within the commonwealth, that we are and vain. At the same time I appreciate
part of the nation of the commonwealth
the seriousness of the situation, I appre-
that is, not that is to be--not something ciate the seriousness of the position of my
in the dim distance, but something that is right hon. friend, the Premier of Victoria,
of which we forma part. What is that and I admire his frankness. I appreciate
which is most essential to us, which is also the difficulties under which my right
most essential, not to the larger colonies hon. friend, the Premier of New South
only, but to all the colonies, to say nothing Wales, is labouring. I am willing to be-
of the group of smaller colonies ? Is it n'ot lieve that both of these honorable gentle-
the maintenance of that commonwealth, of men are true and hearty federationists,
that government in which we live? And but are overborne by local influences, so
are not the smallest colonies as much in- that they fear, unless they get some con-
terested ; is not the very smallest colony cession, or unless they get something which
as much interested as the very largest in seems to be some concession, because it
764
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.
appears to me that that would do as well, The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I will
they will not be able to do anything. tell the Premier of Victoria, with the
The Hon. S. FRASER: Will not that apply frankness he has shown to us, that, for my
all round!
part, I will vote for his simultaneous dis-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : The solution, although I am bitterly opposed
smaller states have not asked for any con- to a referendum. I would rather than
cession.
that the cause should be lost, support a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : You have referendum to the states and to the people
got all you want !
a dual referendum. A referendum, sir,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: They I think is a return to barbarism. We had a
have never asked for a concession from speech in Adelaide from our leader in which
start to finish. They have asked that this we felt that we were back in the haunts of
commonwealth should be established on our early ancestors with very little on, and
the lines on which alone federations can mostly under trees. This reversion, which
succeed, and on the lines which experience he then deprecated so very much, to more
shows that alone they can be safely con- primitive habits, might seem to one who
stituted. And when these gentlemen seek
thinks much of the nineteenth century a
to drive their coach-and-four through all bit of a return to a bygone state which it is
the federation lines, and we resist, they not well to concede; and some thoughtful
accuse us of wanting to take everything, persons might fancy that, however good
and attribute to us a want of generosity, judges the people we hear so much about
that really is in themselves. Now, sir, might be in reference to persons, they
where are this demand and concession to might not always be very good judges on
end ? That is really what I want to know. particular measures which involve immense
If this were our final meeting ; if we could difficulties, which we ourselves hare to con-
now during the next fortnight or three sider in Committee, and waste days over
weeks or month sit continuously and get so as to deal with them in detail, and
our constitution settled, I might approach there could be no more miserably ineffi-
some of those considerations from a little cient means of deciding the truth than to
different point of view from what I do at appeal to them on subjects which involve,
the present time. Supposing we concede not one question but thousands of ques-
the joint dissolution and the dual referen- tions, which questions they are not com-
dum, what guarantee have we that when petent to answer and deal with. I depre-
we meet again–because we certainly are cate this referendum principle absolutely.
not going to finish our work now
I think it will be no protection. I think
Mr. WISE : Why not?
it will do no good to anybody ; but so
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If we strongly do I feel on the subject, and so
finish our work now, I shall be happy to little do I hope that it could interfere pre-
reconsider it. I wish nothing better than judicially with the due working of the sys:
to finish our work now.
tem, that I would accept something I tho-
Mr. WISE: You could if you tried ! roughly dislike in order to see accomplished
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I the great cause which I for many years
complain very much that we are not going have longed. I would submit to both of
to finish our work now.
these things rather than that the cause
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Will should be lost. But, supposing I take that
you try if I stop a couple of days longer to positicn, as I do now, and say frankly that
help you to finish ?
is the very most that I am prepared to do,
The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
765
[17 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
where is the guarantee that there will be sponsible government can be carried on
an end of it? Have we not had a declara- under that constitution that I have moved
tion from the Premier of this great colony the amendment which has been carried.”
as far as he, at all events, is concerned- An HON. MEMBER : It has been carried
and I suppose he speaks for himself and on for sixteen years !
his Government—that when this is con- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It has
ceded he will want more. There may be been carried on, and the mere existence of
some argument in saying to one house as the power has prevented the necessity of
to the other house, “You were returned its ever being exercised.
by the same suffrage. You represent the Mr. Wise: You cannot argue from a
people of your colony. You represent the unified to a federal constituticn !
people of the colonies ; but you are elected The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I ad-
on precisely the same method—why, if one mit it is very difficult. I, who have been
can be sent to its constituents, cannot the always complaining of the false analogy
other ? We want to get at the will of the created between the two, would be the
commonwealth and the will of the states, last to say there is any at all. I do not
and we send you back.
back. We
We say, “You think che senate need fear being sent back
do not represent the will of the common- to its constituents because, in all great
wealth, or you do not represent the will of questions of conflict between the colonies,
the states.” In that position there is im- it will have its constituents at its back,
mense force ; but if you say that, after and will be infinitely more powerful, be-
establishing the senate with a view of cause it is sent by the direct vote of its
keeping up the position—the entity of the constituents than it would be if it were a
states--you are to send disputed ques- nominated body, which would never know
tions on a referendum to the whole of what authority would support it. I have
the commonwealth, why, then the senate no fear of combinations between different
becomes a delusion and a sham. If it parties-labour parties or any other par-
is to be so, better make it so at once, ties in the colonies- ever interfering with
or better not make it at all. It is said a house intended to be more conservative.
that the difficulties which will surround I am, on the contrary, convinced that the
the exercise of this power of sending to greatest radical in each colony will become
the people will prerent its ever being acted the biggest conservative when the rights
upon. Its very existence will operate as of his own colony are at stake as against
a rod held over the heads of the repre- those of another.
sentatives of the states, who ought to be Mr. HIGGINS : Hear, hear; we see it
independent and equal to the other body, now !
and will be used as a means of producing
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
those very so-called deadlocks about wbich understand that what the hon. member
all this legislation is to be passed in order means is that that is his own attitude
to remedy them. The way to create a throughout this Convention, because he, as
danger is to anticipate one. Our act in a declared radical, shows the determined
South Australia has been referred to. That feeling that a radical of one colony has to
is what the hon. member, Mr. Symon, sug- preserve his colony's state rights. That
gests should be adopted here. It is asked, is an illustration of the correctness of my
how could responsible government becarried view.
on under such a constitution as this? My Mr. HIGGINS : I am afraid the hon.
hon. friend answers, “It is because re- member has misunderstood some one!
766
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [4.24]: I
not think I misunderstood the hon. mem- should like to state that the concluding
ber. He is perfectly clear. I have no remarks of the hon. gentleman who has
fear at all of intercolonial cliques that just resumed his seat seem to me very
will injure the federal cause. I am per- materially to clear the way so far as he is
fectly sure that in each colony there will concerned.
be no such thing as radical and conserva-
The Hon. Sir J.W. DOWNER: That is all !
tive as between themselves and the other Mr. TRENWITH : He is prepared to
colonies; and I am satisfied that both the vote for a joint dissolution. That appears
senate and the house of representatives, to me one, at any rate, of the questions
instead of having their position weakened now in dispute the question of a concur-
by being liable to be sent back to their rent dissolution of both houses, or a disso-
constituents, will have their position con- lution of both houses with a considerable
siderably strengthened. I care very little, interval. He is prepared in the interests
therefore, from this point of view, whether of federation, rather than lose it, to accept
this is or is not carried ; but if it be car- a double referendum; but he is afraid, in
ried, and if the Premier of Victoria will that connection, that something further
stay here long enough to let us finish the may be asked. Now, I respectfully sub-
bill, and will incidentally devote an hour mit that our attitude here ought to be to
or two to the financial clauses—which the do all that can be done to meet each other,
Drafting Committee have had to consider, going as far as we possibly can, and, when
having more time than the Finance Com- anything further is proposed, then is the
mittee--so that we should have some time to come to a halt. But if it seems to
guarantee that the work would be finished any of us that a certain step in a direction
hy Tuesday or Wednesday, I will promise which we think to be slightly injudicious
him to support both his proposals, although in the main is calculated to advance feder-
I think the referendum is a most pernicious ation, let us take that step, and not be
system, and ought never to be adopted. afraid of taking it for fear something else
But if, on the other hand, we are to have may follow. When that something else is
the business kept back, and practically presented to us, then is the time to call a
nothing done, if the Finance Committee will halt. I submit, also, that the hon. mem-
persist in doing nothing and will not en- ber, Sir John Downer, in his opening re-
deavour to solve what is one of the most marks, altogether misstated the attitude
serious problems, then it is useless for the taken in the very admirable, conciliatory,
Premier of Victoria to tell us he is willing and courageous speech of the hon. member,
to stop until Tuesday or Wednesday to finish Mr. Holder. The hon. member, Sir John
the bill; and unless I know we are going to Downer, said the attitude which Mr.
finish it, I remain true to my principle, Holder took was that checks were danger-
which is, first of all, to stand by the reso- ous, and that they might lead to civil
lution which has been carried'; secondly, I venture to say that Mr. Holder
if that is upset, to go for the simultaneous pointed out that checks were necessary,
,
dissolution. To that I really have no ob- that they existed in the various consti-
jection. I would not mind going for that tutions to which he referred, but that
at once, but to a referendum I only go as checks were accompanied by safety-valves,
a last resort, when I am perfectly satis- that this constitution at present con-
fied that the cause of federation depends tained checks without any safety-valve,
and, that, in order to avoid a possible revo-
war.
upon it.
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
767
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
lution in the future, we should introduce stage, because on the merits of the ques-
some provision of the kind. We ought to tion which has been again brought under
be guided by the constitutions of which discussion, I said practically all I had to
we have knowledge. We ought to be say before the division was taken immedi-
guided by those institutions with which ately before luncheon. I desire, however,
we are acquainted. But as we are making to express my gratification that the right
an entirely new constitution, we ought not hon, member, Sir George Turner, should
to be afraid to try innovations upon such have withdrawn the somewhat unguarded
points as in existing constitutions have allegation he made as to the prerious vote
proved to be faulty.
having been carried by a combination of
An HON. MEMBER: We have made in- small states. Now, I say that, because
novations already!
it is exceedingly undesirable that, on such
Mr. TRENWITH : That is true. No an important question as this is on its
reform can come anywhere in the world merits, we should have the question of
without innovation. While every inno-
While every inno- small and large states introduced. It is
vation may not be reform, certainly no re- calculated to create the greatest possible
form can arise without innovation. There- prejudice, and a great deal of unnecessary
fore, I say to the hon. member, Sir William heat. I make bold to say that every mem-
Zeal, when he says there is no precedent, ber coming from the smaller states is
that that argument is not sound, since he animated by as sincere a desire for the
has many times to establish precedents furtherance of the great cause of federa-
when he considers them necessary for the tion, and by as high a patriotism in that
dispatch of business in the house over cause, as any member coming from the
which he so well presides. Every prece larger states can possibly be; and if we
dent must have had a beginning. It must deliberate upon a question of this kind,
have been initiated at a time when there and a conclusion be arrived at contrary
was no precedent. Therefore, the hon. to the views of those who come from the
member's argument is not sound. But we larger states, we shall always be liable to
are at a juncture in our debates, as is ac- have it recalled and reconsidered on the
knowledged and recognised by all the dele- same ground that we are asked to recon
gates, when federation is in great danger, sider this question to-day. What we are
when the principle for which we have all bound to do, coming from large or small
been contending for years is in danger of states, is to see justice done, to arrive at
being set back. I would, therefore, urge what is a fair conclusion on the particular
thiis consideration upon those who think, matter under debate; and, for my part, I
with Sir John Downer, that possibly an declare most emphatically as regards the
advance might be made here were it not amendment carried before luncheon-I do
for the danger of something else being sub- not pretend to say that other hon. mem-
sequently asked that if an advance can bers who take the opposite view are not
be made in the minds of delegates without absolutely as clear and well grounded in it
itself entailing danger, that advance ought as I am in mine—but I make bold to say
to be made, in the interests of compromise, emphatically that I consider the amend-
remembering that we can always call a ment carried before luncheon contains the
halt when anything unreasonable is de- fairest and most just solution of the ques-
manded.
tion. I adhere to that view, and I intend
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [4.30]: to give effect to it when the question is
I intend to say very little at the present again put to the vote. The debate which
768
+
Commonwealth of
Australia Bill.
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
has taken place now has strengthened me character upon three separate amendments
in that view. Now I do not know whether with which it is very difficult to grapple.
or not it is in accord with the views of I say, then, that, so far as I have heard the
other hon. members, but I do not think it further debate, it has strengthened, in my
is desirable so soon after we have arrived mind, the position I have taken up. My
at a deliberate conclusion, while we are hon. friend, Mr. Holder, in the very clear
all influenced by our own preconceived statement he has just made, has supported
notions and the arguments which have the attitude that I took up the other day,
convinced us, that we should be brought and has shown that to say that amend-
so hastily to further debate and further de- ments, referendums, and checks of all
cision. I wish to interpose no difficulty kinds might save the country from revo-
whatever in the way of reconsideration. lution and from civil war is really an un-
So far as my personal effort is concerned, tenable position. I said then, and I say
I should wish to do everything in my now- and I am glad to be supported by
power to bring about a reconsideration : what my hon. friend has said that the
of the question, because we are not here more you multiply checks in a constitu-
to sit down on any particular victory we tion such as this, the more you subject the
achiere. We are here for such a purpose country to turmoil and agitation, and the
that if any number, whether a majority or more troublesome it becomes to secure a
not, should consider that more ample con- calm decision of the country, and the more
sideration will bring about a more just it would intensify the chance of civil war
result, it is our duty to see that more if that was at all imminent. I was glad
ample consideration is given ; and, so long to hear my hon. friend put that as strongly
as I have the honor to be a member of this as he did, seeing he appeared to take the
great assembly, I shall be actuated by that opposite view the other day. In answer to
principle on every occasion whether the
the argument of some hon. members that
minority who seek reconsideration be a no check is required, he pointed to our own
large or a small one. We are here deliber- Constitution and said,
" There
you
have
ating—as some hon. members have said, a check, just as you have in New South
negotiating--and it would be ridiculous to Wales the less popular check in the shape
put ourselves at any juncture in the posi- of adding to the members of the Legisla-
tion of an ordinary legislative assembly, in tive Council." If that check is held
up,
and
which party feeling might desire to secure, held up triumphantly, as an illustration
at all hazards, a particular victory, and, of the benefit of having a check, then I
having got it, would use any effort to pre- say that, if in this constitution we are to
vent it from being recalled. That is not introduce a check, we cannot do better
the attitude I propose to take up. There- than follow the only precedent we have
fore, I am entirely at one with hon. mem- in relation to a chamber elected, not on
bers in wishing, at every stage of our pro- the widest, but on an extensive franchise.
gress, that the fullest and most exhaustive The upper chamber in South Australia is
consideration should be given to every elected on a very wide franchise. We have
question. At the same time, I think it is in the check there, to which the hon. mem-
undesirable that we should do what is pro- ber, Mr. Holder, alluded, a precedent for
posedin so much haste. I believe thata little this, and we have a precedent for its efficacy
further time should give opportunity for re- as far as it goes, and that is exactly the
consideration and a more detailed exchange check or safety-valve, as we have sometimes
of views than is possible in a debate of this called it, which is embodied in the proposi.
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
769
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tion that was carried, on my motion, before The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : The senate
the Committee adjourned for luncheon. may be the obstructing body!
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : There Mr. SYMON : In what way? Of course,
you have a unified state—different from
if my hon. friend assumes that the house
what you would have in a federation |
of representatives is always going to be
Mr. SYMON: I recognise every dis- right -
tinction that exists between the federation
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : No, I do not.
we are creating and a unified state ; but,
Either might be right, or either might be
for the life of me, I can see no distinction
wrong!
that would lessen the value of that safety-
Mr. SYMON : Quite so. You cannot
valve existing in a unified constitution as
predicate of the house of representatives
compared with its efficacy in a federal con-
that it will be obstructive.
stitution. On the contrary, it seems to me
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Nor of the
—and I put this to my hon. friend in all
senate !
sincerity—that where you had the senate
representing the states—that is, the demo-
Mr. SYMON : You cannot predicate
cracy of each state represented in the senate
that of the senate any more than of the
-you would find this particular safety-
house of representatives. But if the senate
valve of which we enjoy the benefit more
to be a check at all, surely it is to be a
effective than you would if you had it in
check only in this way: that it is to in-
a unified state. Take our colony. Do
vite the house of representatives to show
you suppose that those men sent by our
that it is giving effect to the will of the
colony, as one constituency, into the senate people as a nation, before the senate is sent
would hastily act so as to bring about a
to its constituency.
dissolution which would send them to their
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : The legisla-
constituents under these circumstances? Do tion which was the cause of the trouble
you suppose, if they saw, as they would have may have originated in the senate !
a right to be assured, that the popular The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN:In that case the
will was expressed by the majority of the executive would not order a dissolution !
house of representatives on a question that
M1. SYMON: I think that could not
did not affect the vitality, the very being,
be so under my amendment. My amend-
of the state, that they would not give way? ment, my hon. friend will find, is limited,
Of course they would, and it is for that
because I do not claim the same power for
very reason, it seems to me, consistent
the senate. The proposition of the hon.
with every principle of constitutional law
member, Mr. O'Connor, was that the sen-
and fair play that you should first dissolve
ate and the house of representatives should
the house of representatives, which legis- be on the same footing.
be on the same footing. I do not claim
lates in a particular manner—it may be in that for the senate. I am willing to take
a moribund session of parliament-before it if it can be done. But, as I wish to be
you dissolve the senate, which is merely a perfectly fair and moderate, and to bring
check; and I believe that if you adhere about only a just system of federation, I
to the proposition embodied in my amend- do not claim that at all. I think it would
ment, carried before the adjournment for place the senate in a position it ought not
luncheon, you will never—at any rate, to occupy in the federation ; but still if
you will on very rare occasions-be called
that were given it would strengthen the
upon to bring into operation the provision senate, and, as my views are in favour of
for the dissolution of the senate.
strengthening the senate, I certainly would
770
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
that power.
not be found voting against it. All I say
to its constituents and receive their man-
is that, under the amendment which has date. I do not think any second dissolu-
been carried, we do not give the senate
tion will be necessary. I beg hon. mem-
bers not to be swayed by these considera-
Mr. WISE : Against whom do you tions of rival state interests. I ask every
strengthen the senate-against the minis- hon. member to act as the members repre-
try?
senting South Australia are acting. Let
Mr. SYMON: You do not strengthen each of us, in seeking to secure what is
the senate against anybody, except in its right, act upon our individual judgments.
protection of the interests it is elected to Mr. WISE : I do not regard this as a
protect; but-I draw a distinction here question of state interest. It is a question
you enable it to exercise effectively that affecting the existence of responsible go-
power of check, that position of a drag on vernment.
the constitutional wheel, which we want Mr. SYMON: I take exactly the same
to give it. If we do not want to give view of it. I say that, by having a simul-
it that, there is an end of the discussion. taneous dissolution of the senate and of the
You might as well give it a kind of ex- house of representatives, you infringe every
ecutive or ambassadorial power from the principle of responsible government with
states.
which we are acquainted. In adopting
An Hon. MEMBER : Or there might be such a provision, you are undoubtedly
only one chamber i
taking an entirely new departure. It may
Mr. SYMON : Yes, or there might be be right, and it may work well; but we
only one chamber. Without some mode have no experience to support us, and
of protecting the states, what is to prevent my belief is tbat it will not be effective;
à condition of civil war? I do not say that but will bring about a state of things in
there are not other methods which wight connection with the senatė which, not
in some degree secure the same thing; but we of the small states, but you of the
in commending this, I say that it deals large states, will in the future very greatly
only with the senate as a check on hasty deplore.
legislation, and, why in the name of all The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
that is constitutional, you should send this Wales) [4:47]: I have a suggestion to
house—which is to be merely a check, make to the Committee, and I am quite
so as to ask the house of representatives sure that every member of the Committee
if it thinks it has the country at its back will agree with it. I think there is a
to get that support-to. its own constitu- general disposition on the part of hon.
ents in the first instance, is beyond my members, notwithstanding the strictness
comprehension. What I want to see on of the views which are held, to come to an
all these questions is the house of repre- agreement upon this question during the
sentatives in harmony with its constituents. present session of the Convention. That
The check exercised, the only result of the being so, I think it is desirable, inasmuch
check is to invite the house of representa- as there are a number of complicated
tives—which may be in a moribund politi- amendments before the Committee, that
cal condition—to receive the warrant of its there should be time to discuss and re-
constituents; and if it does receive that flect upon them before we finally decide
warrant, and if it comes back fortified in which we shall adopt. That brings me
the course it has been pursuing, then the to the suggestion which I have to make,
senate must either give way or it must go
which is this : If I have the support of
.
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
171
[17 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the Committee, I shall presently move that that the work we are attempting to do
you, Mr. Chairman, do leave the chair, here is important in the interests of a
report progress, and ask leave to sit again larger constituency than Victoria. Al-
at half-past 7. That will bring the Presi- though it will be at some considerable in-
dent into the chair, and I will then ask convenience to myself, to my colleagues,
hon. members to support me in moving and to the members of the Victorian legis-
the suspension of the standing orders to lature, I shall be very glad, if there is any
enable us to postpone new clause 57 with hopewhatever of settling this matter satis-
the proposed amendments thereon, not- factorily by the course suggested by the
withstanding that the clause has already leader of the Convention, to make arrange-
been partly dealt with, and that we may ments by which I shall be able to meet the
get leave to reconsider and rescind the Victorian Assembly later in the week. Of
decision arrived at with regard to the course, if there is no hope of a satisfactory
clause when it comes on again. If I get settlement, it will be useless for me to
the standing orders suspended, I propose remain here.
to go on this evening with such other parts The Hon. E. BARTON: I think there is
of the bill as will suit the convenience of every hope !
hon. members, and on that matter I shall The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: On
be open to receive suggestions. In the the assurance of the leader of the Conven-
meantime, I think it will be in the in- tion that there is a hope, and because of
terests of all of us, and of the cause gener-
what I have heard from hon. niembers who
ally, that we should leave the further dis- are desirous of reconsidering the matter to
cussion of the question of deadlocks until, see if they cannot modify their views, I
say, Monday morning. I think that not- shall be glad to fall in with the suggestion
withstanding the urgent political engage- which has been made, and remain here one
ments of some members of the Conven- or two days next week to settle this and
tion, even they will concur with me that, the other difficult matters with which we
looking at the stage at which we have have to deal. If we settle these matters, I
reached, and the vital necessity of arriving have no doubt that the other members of
at some reasonable conclusion on a subject the Convention will, in the absence of the
such as this, it is better not to proceed representatives from Victoria, be able to
with it to-night, when we are, in our deal with the machinery provisions of the
friendly way, at odds, but to leave it to bill in a manner which will be satisfactory
some future time when we can consider it to all. I hope that those who voted against
from a point of view which will enable us the view which I hold will, in the mean-
to come to an agreement.
time, give the matter earnest and careful
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- consideration, and see whether they cannot
toria)[4.51]: It is well known to a majority once again help us out of our difficulties,
of hon, members that I have made arrange- and enable us to join together in framing
ments to leave Sydney on Sunday next, in a scheme of federation which will be accept-
order that I may be in Melbourne on Mon- able to the various colonies.
day, and meet the Assembly upon Tuesday, The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
to finish off the remaining business of the (Western Australia) 14:53]: I do not rise
House before we proceed to our general with the intention of opposing the course
elections. This work is undoubtedly im- suggested by the hon. member, Mr. Barton,
portant in the interests of the colony of because I feel it my duty to meet his wishes
Victoria ; but, at the same time, I realise in every respect. At the same time, it seems
.
772
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
to me that the course which he suggests is The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
an unusual and unprecedented one, at all Hon. members must know by this time
events, so far as the procedure of our par-
that we shall have to return to our colonies
liaments are concerned. On many occasions, without finishing the bill.
when during our deliberations, decisions Mr. WISE : I hope not !
have been come to by the vote of a narrow
The Hon. E. BARTON: Not if I can
majority, which it has afterwards been prevent it!
thought well to reverse, it has been the The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
custom, and I think it is the custom in
I am certain that when the right hon.
all legislative bodies, to accept the posi- member, Sir George Turner, and his col-
tion and to take the proper constitutional
leagues leave us, it will not be in the in-
terests of federation to continue our con-
course to reverse the decision. There are
sideration of the bill.
That being so,
plenty of opportunities given by our stand-
what necessity is there for dealing with
ing orders for rerersing any decision which
this matter at the presert time?
We
may have been arrived at in the discussion
shall have to meet again in a few months,
of this bill. For instance, the bill could
and by that time we shall have had an
be recommitted for the reconsideration of opportunity to fully consider it. We shall
the clause, and I think it would be better
then be able to come back to our deliber-
for that course to be pursued than to up- ations after having had an opportunity
set the constitutional procedure by asking of fully considering the whole matter.
for a suspension of the standing orders, That is the procedure. we should opt.
with a view to getting hon. members Why should we make an exception in this
to reverse the decision at which they House because a decision is contrary to
have arrived. I think it is very un- the views of the members of the larger
reasonable to ask members of the Com-
states, when none would be more unwilling
mittee to rererse our decision, after we than those gentlemen to take any course
have given a deliberate vote on a subject of that kind in connection with a deci.
which has engaged our attention for a long sion given contrary to the views of the
time. If we were new to politics, and members from the smaller states ? For
had never sat in a legislative assembly in that reason I am altogether opposed to the
our lives, and knew nothing about the procedure proposed to be adopted. I have
duties which we are called upon to per- no doubt my opposition will be futile. We
form, we might deal with these matters in have been dragged down step by step all
a perfunctory way, without making up through the discussion. The environment,
our minds beforehand. But to ask me to
the surroundings, have been too strong for
change my mind on a matter of the greatest some of us. The representatives of the larger
importance, such as this, within a short
states have dragged us along nearly to the
time, is, I think, unreasonable.
bottom of the hill.
The Hon. E. BARTON : The right hon. The Hon. S. FRASER : No!
member need not change his mind now; The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
he might do it on Monday !
I say the great majority, but not every one.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: We have been dragged along in this matter.
If we were going to finish the bill before Our views, if they have not been scouted,
separating there might be some necessity have been ignored or taken little notice of.
for taking this course, but we are not We are now asked to rescind a resolution
going to do so.
deliberately adopted only an hour or two
An Hon. MEMBER: Yes, we are ! ago, in order that the views of members
Commonwealth of
773
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
from the larger colonies shall have effect The Hon. E. BARTON: Instead of
given to them.
We are asked to reverse recommitting the bill at once I shall ask
our judgment-a course which has not the concurrence of the Convention to sus
been taken before-which is altogether pend our standing orders. That will give
unusual and contrary to our standing or- an opportunity of having a calm, reason-
ders—merely to satisfy those who cannot able, and friendly discussion. I shall cer-
take a defeat. I have had to accept defeat tainly make a motion in Committee for
many times, but it seems others are not
the suspension of the standing orders, and
prepared to do so. We ought to accept de- it will then be for my right hon. friend, if
feat, and not try almost immediately after- he has a majority in the House, to defeat
wards to reverse a decision by asking hon. that motion. If he has not a majority he .
members to change their views on a mat- can then do what he thinks is such a good
ter which we consider to be of vital im-
thing-accept defeat.
portance. It is asking too much, and it is
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
altogether unreasonable.
Certainly I will !
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. E. BARTON: I have no
Wales) [5]: I should like to say, before doubt of that. I beg to move ::
submitting a motion, that I scarcely think That the Chairman do now leave the chair,
the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest is justi- report progress, and ask leave to sit again at 7:30.
fied in putting the matter so strongly, see- Question resolved in the affirmative.
ing that he obtained the suspension of the Progress reported.
standing orders for a very similar purpose. Motion (by Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Not
That so much of the standing orders be sus-
to reverse a decision !
pended as will enable the Hon. E. Barton to
The Hon. E. BARTON: Not to reverse
inake a motion without notice.
a decision, but to completely upset the Motion (by Hon. E, BARTON) proposed:
order of procedure on a bill. This is for the That it be an instruction to the Committee of
purpose of changing the order of procedure
the Whole Convention that they have leave to
on a bill. I would remind my right hon.
postpone the proposed new clause 57a, and all
proposed amendments thereon, notwithstanding
friend that this is not a question of in- that it has been amended, and to reconsider and
ability to accept defeat. It is a question rescind all or any resolutions arrived at, and
of inability to accept a position of danger
votes taken on the said clause, and on amend.
ments thereto,
to a cause which may be relieved from
that danger by a wise course taken now.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Is that an
What I wish to do is this : If we do not
instruction to rescind?
take the course which I have been just
The PRESIDENT : No; that the Com-
suggesting, we shall first have to deal finally
mittee have leave to reconsider. It is
in Committee for the purposes of the Com- purely permissive.
mittee with this clause. Then we shall
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Very well
have to go to the end of the bill and deal
if that is distinctly understood. As I heard
with every other clause in the bill before
it I took it to be an instruction to rescind.
we get another opportunity of dealing with The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: No instruc-
this matter. That will be a cumbrous tion to rescind can be given to the Com-
process, and in order to avoid it I intend mittee.
to suggest a certain course.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
[The President left the chair at 5.3 p.m. The
Recommit the bill !
Convention resumed at 7:30 p.m.]
3 H
774
Communication [17 SEPT., 1897.] from Queensland.
COMMUNICATION FROM QUEENSLAND. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
The PRESIDENT : I have the honor to
(Western Australia) [7:33]: As there seems
announce to the Convention that I have
no doubt I have none whatever myself
just received from the Acting Premier of
—that we are not going to conclude our
Queensland the following telegram :- business at the present sitting, and will
In pursuance of the following resolution passed have to adjourn, would it not be more
by the Legislative Assembly of this colony on
gracious for us to say that we shall be able
the 16th instant : “ that in the opinion of this
House the Acting Chief Secretary should request
to comply with the request ? I do not
the Australasian Federal Convention now sitting think there will be any doubt about it. I
in Sydney, not to conclude its work until Qucens. do not intend to move an amendment; but
land has an opportunity of being represented at
that Convention by representatives directly ap-
I would suggest to the hon. and learned
pointed by the electors of the colony”-I have
member, Mr. Barton, whether, as we are
the honor to submit the above request for the not going to complete our work now, we
consideration of the Convention. Letter posted should not say at once that we are glad
to-day.
HORACE TOZDR.
to be able to inform the Acting-Premier
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
of Queensland that we hope to be able to
Wales) [7.31]: I take it that this Conven- comply with his request.
tion will be deeply gratified by the com-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New South
munication which has been received by Wales) [7.34] : I would suggest that the
you, sir, and that there is not one among
course taken by the leader of the Conven-
us who will not look forward with renewed
tion seems the proper one.
It will be
hope to the prospect of a consummation of better, I think, at a subsequent stage, to
a federation which there is now every pro- deal with the point raised by my right hon.
bability will embrace the whole of the
friend, Sir John Forrest. At present we
Australian continent as well as Tasmania.
simply have to receive a certain message
I move:
from the gentleman representing the Go-
That the communication received by the Presi.
vernment of Queensland. In supporting
dent from the Acting-Premier of Queensland bo
recorded on the minutes of this Convention, and
the motion made by my hon. and learned
that the President be authorised to acknowledge friend, Mr. Barton, I have to express the
the same, and to intimate in reply that this Con-
very great feelings of gratification with
vention has received it with gratification, and
which I, as one of the representatives of
will give the request which it conveys the best
consideration.
New South Wales, have received the com-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
munication you have just announced. All
(Victoria) (7.32]: I desire to second the along I have felt that this federation would
resolution, which I have no doubt will
be lame and incomplete withont the colony
meet with the unanimous approval of this
of Queensland, and it is on the part of the
Convention, I quite agree with our hon.
people of New South Wales a matter of
leader in the remarks he has made. What- the deepest gratification that we have
ever our feelings may be as to what has now a prospect of completing the circle
occurred in the past, or whatever doubts
of Australian union.
we may have had with regard to the desire The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
of our sister colony to join with us, I think Wales) [7.35] : In explanation, and in
they will now be at an end. It is our duty, answer to what my right hon. friend, the
as I am sure it will be our pleasure, to
Prime Minister of Western Australia, has
do anything we possibly can, to bring the said, I would point out that it would be
whole of the Australian continent into our scarcely right for me, on a motion of this
federation.
kind, to prejudge any course which the
Communicationz
775
[17 Sept., 1897.]
from Queensland.
Convention may take. The probable en- for conflicts between the houses of the
trance of Queensland into our delibera- legislature. I think we shall be able to-
tions, with the view to her joining in the night, without too long a discussion, to
federation, is a matter which will arouse all dispose of the question of the functions of
of the support towards its being effected, the executive. I think we will be able on
that every one of us can give. But the Monday to go on with this question of
practical way to meet the request; I take deadlocks, having had the intervening time
it, is that when we do adjourn, if we have for thought, and we will then come to a
to adjourn without completing our labours, decision, which, probably, will receive the
we should perform that act in such a way, approval of each colony and of the people
as while we carry our work on as far as thereof. That, at any rate, is my hope. I
we can under present circumstances, we hope also that we may go so far that all the
shall leave no part of it not open to re-
other matters that are committed to us as.
consideration. The telegram, as I ain just to show, either that we have come to some
reminded, says there is a letter to follow, decision, which is an advance on our pre-
and that letter may be much more expres- vious work, or that we are proceeding in
sive, may convey much more information
such a way as will give the people of these
than is conveyed in the telegram. What colonies confidence in the result of our
I hope to do is to go on with the work of deliberations. That is what we have to
the Convention; but on the understand- aim at. That confidence is that which we
ing that if the majority of hon. members have to gain ultimately. I think we should
desire that there should be at some stage proceed in the effort to gain it in as much
an adjournment in order to allow of the time as is available to us, and then, after
participation of Queensland in our work, such an interval as may be agreed upon,.
we should at any rate do as much as we to resume our work in the hope that
can until circumstances prevent some of we shall be joined by Queensland in the
our friends from remaining with us any final completion of it. That is the view
longer, and at that point, having achieved which suggests itself to me. I think it
as much as we can, we should then report will be no breach of confidence to say that,
progress and adjourn till such a date as in the communications which passed be-
will enable this question to be decided in tween Sir Horace Tozer and myself about .
Queensland, and allow us then to resuine the time of the opening of the Convention,
our deliberations in Sydney or in such I intimated that if a decision was come to -
other city as may be agreed upon. I think by Queensland to join in our work, or if
that is what will meet the views of hon. we had something which gave a definite
gentlemen. I do not think hon. members promise of her being represented, she :
want, now they are here, to part without would have my personal assistance in
doing as much as they can in the limited time securing a reconsideration of any part of
available. I think it will be consonant the work we did at this Convention when
with the wishes of all of us that we should she came to be represented among us.
do what we can within that time. I would With that assurance, knowing that in the
plead with hon. members that, with refer- meantime we ought to do that which is
ence to the matter which was under dis- incumbent upon us as our statutory duty,
cussion this afternoon, we should not part I think we should go on until the time
without having gone at any rate some way comes for the Premier of Victoria to leave
to show what our feeling and opinion are us, or perhaps even later than that, if wo
with regard to the provisions to be made have completed the most difficult part of
776
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
us.
our work, keeping this fact before us : The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
that when we adjourn there is no finality Wales) [7.44] : Of course in such a body
until it is definitely ascertained whether as this I must be entirely in the hands of
Queensland will or will not join us. hon. members; but it struck me when I
Question resolved in the affirmative. moved that the Chairman leave the chair
a little earlier this afternoon than usual,
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL. that I was taking a course which tended
172 Committee :
towards a calm and deliberate considera-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) tion of the points which had arisen between
[7:41]: The leader of the Convention has It was only in accordance with that,
just expressed his opinion that we should and following out what I then gathered to
not proceed to-night with the further con- be the general desire of hon. members,
sideration of the matter which has engaged that it was 'my intention to go on with
our attention now for some considerable other clauses of the bill to-night. Of course
time. I thoroughly appreciate the motive it may be true, as my hon. and learned
that actuates that expression of his desire; friend has said, that we are as near to
but I would suggest, in order to elicit the agreeing as we shall be; but I prefer not
opinion of some hon. members of the Con- to think that. I prefer to think that there
vention whether it would not be better are amongst us a few who will come closer
for us to finish the work upon which we to mutual accommodation in their views.
have been engaged. We have now before
We know that there are amongst us gen-
us, in all their freshness and vigour, the tlemen of stalwart disposition who will
various arguments that have been urged always hold extreme views, and whose
in connection with the proposal. We are sturdy independence forbids them from
familiar with every aspect of the case, and making any concession at all. But we
there does not occur to my mind any good know that the majority of us are not made
reasons why we should not be prepared of such brave stuff, or, at any rate, such
this evening to give an answer to the vari- Spartan stuff, and therefore that, with
ous questions which arise in connection time for thought and reflection, most of us
with the provision to deal with deadlocks. are likely to come to some adjustment of
Of course if there are hon. members who this matter which will not involve a great
desire a postponement of the matter, that sacrifice of principle on the part of any one
will be another question ; but I think the of us. Holding that view, I suggest to my
subject permits of more than one aspect in hon. friend that he should withdraw his
considering the advisability of postpone opposition to the course I have suggested,
ment. I see some danger in delay. I think and allow us to get on with the clauses deal-
our minds are brought together as closely ing with the executive, on the understand-
as they can be. I think we are all persuaded ing that on Monday morning we revert to
of the necessity of coming to an early and the consideration of these provisions against
clear decision on the subject, and I do not deadlocks, and settle the question, so far
think any further consideration would en- as this Convention in its present session
lighten our mindsor incline our hearts more can settle it, on that day if possible.
to the determination of the question. I,
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS :
therefore, would suggest to the leader of The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
the Convention, if he does not consider it South Wales) [7.47]: I join with my hon.
of vital importance, to allow the matter to and learned friend, Mr. Isaacs, in the de-
be continued and determined to-night.
sire that the discussion on this matter
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
777
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
shall proceed until the Convention arrives and nothing can be gained by giving up
at some decision, because I foresee that any valuable time to other matters—any
any postponement is not likely to expedite burning question at issue between us. I,
business. We shall probably come here therefore, respectfully urge, not that we
on Monday having arrived no nearer at a proceed to a decision this evening, because
solution of the difficulty; hon, members I think it is hopeless to expect that, but
will address themselves to the subject re- that we occupy the time as profitably as
freshed by their rest, and the chances are we can with more discussion and further
that we shall have a much longer discussion discovering the points of difference be-
than if we proceed with the matter as it tween us, and, by that means, help forward
has been before us. With the leader of the matter to a solution more speedily
the Convention, I have no extreme anxiety than we shall if we now turn our atten-
to press hon. members to a decision on tion to some matters not at present in our
this matter; but I do think that the time mind, and then come fresh to the con-
might be more profitably occupied this sideration of this question on Monday.
evening in discussing those points wherein Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales)
we do differ. There are points of differ- [7.50]: I confess that the proposal to
ence which have not been fully dwelt postpone this matter until Monday comes
upon by this Convention in the discussions from the vanquished party with an honest
we have had. We have hardly touched
We have hardly touched desire that we should give every possible
on the question as to how we stard, re- attention to this subject. Our decision
latively, in our support of the principles upon this question may affect the whole .
of a dual referendum, or a mass referen- of the issue before this Convention, and it
dum—that question has not been an issue does seem to me that in all matters con-
put clearly before us—and I venture to nected with our proceedings we ought to
say that, when the Convention does deal lean to that view of the subject which
with that question, it will be found that gives time for consideration, which gives
we are more divided than we appear to be every possible deliberation, and shows our
now, and it is just as well for us to under- anxiety to conclude our proceedings with
stand clearly the position we do occupy- every possible consideration for all the
the differences which divide us.
interests concerned. This is a question
spend this evening in a discussion of that which may decide the popular view in two
character, we shall, perhaps, after an ad- of the largest colonies. I do not think I
journment, be better able on Monday, am likely to alter my own opinion, but
knowing our differences, to arrive at some it seems to me when we get a proposal like
definite decision. I would not object to go this from the leader of the Convention,
thus far-to let the determination of this who no doubt has consulted with others
much-vexed question stand over, not only who have very strong views on the ques-
till Monday, but also till we meet again tion, and who to a certain extent guide
at some later period next session.
public opinion, it will be courteous on our
The Hon. E. BARTON : No!
part to agree with that proposal.
The Hon. J. H, CARRUTHERS: All The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
I desire to advocate is, that the time we tralia) [7.52]: I wish to say no words
have' at 'our disposal cannot be better which would be discourteous to the leader
spent than in discussing that which we all of this Convention; but I desire to make
agree to be the crux of the whole question. one suggestion. It seems to me that; if we
We are now at the parting of the ways, proceed at once to a further consideration
If we
778
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
of this question, with all the facts adduced which I hope will be somewhat different to
during the debate fresh in our minds, we the decision we arrived at to day. I feel
shall be in a position to make the utmost that we must not discuss the point, but I
use of the three days' debate which has offer this suggestion with regard to a ques-
taken place, and which lies just behind us. tion which seems to cover an important
On the other hand, if we go now to the issue in connection with our deliberations.
discussion of the important matter of the Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [7.55] :
executive, we shall, to a large extent, let I want to give one other reason for post-
the other matter fade from our minds; poning the consideration of these matters
and, when we come on Monday to approach until Monday, and it is, that while it will
the consideration of the question, we shall give hon. members who formed the majority
have practically the whole of the debate this morning an opportunity to further
over again. It is quite probable that if consider the matter, it will also afford my
the matter be postponed until Monday, we hon. friends opposite an opportunity to
shall have one if not two days' debate reconsider their position, and I hope they
upon a question which we might be able will come round to our way of thinking,
to settle to-night before we rise. If we had and swell the majority by their votes.
two or three weeks ahead of us to devote The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
to this matter, I should fall in most cor- Wales) [7.56]: I move :
dially with the view expressed in favour That the proposed new clause 57 (A) be post-
of delay; but it is of the utmost import- poneck' until after the consideration of clause 70.
ance that we should make the utmost use, We can then go on with the provisions
having regard to the few hours we have dealing with the exccutive, and if we com-
before us, of the debate which has taken plete our consideration of those provisions
place; and for these reasons Iurge strongly, within a reasonable time, I can again move
unless hon. members have gone away upon
the postponement of this new clause, so
the understanding that the matter would that we may deal with some other subject,
not come on to-night, in which case I have such as the judiciary. Before the provi-
not one word to say, that we proceed with sions dealing with the executiveare reached,
the consideration of the matter at once, to
there are two or three formal clauses which
save that which is precious time.
we might pass now, because it will be in-
Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [7.54]: I convenient to go back to them.
submit to hon. gentlemen that we have Question resolved in the affirmative.
no excuse for discussing the matter at all Proposed new clause, and all the amend-
except that we have arrived at a somewhat ments suggested for the prevention of
hasty conclusion. I think we decided this deadlocks, postponed.
question to-day rather hastily ; and, in
Clause 57. When a proposed law passed by
view of the importance of the question, it the houses of the parliament is presented to the
is reasonable that those who voted to-day governor-general for the Queen's assent, he shall
should have time for further consideration.
declare, according to his discretion, but subject
to the provisions of this constitution, either that
That seems to be a sufficient reason for de-
he assents to it in the Queen's name, or that he
ferring the matter until Monday. In the withholds assent, or that he reserves the law for
meanwhile, hon. members will have time the Queen's pleasure to be made known.
to consider the matter in all its aspects.
It does not seem reasonable to say
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
that
bly of Victoria :
should proceed now with this discussion
Line 5. After constitution "insert " and to
with a view to arrive at a decision to-night, her Majesty's instructions."
we
[Mr. McMillan,
Commonwealth of
779
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) quantity like this in a constitution. It is
[7:58]: Speaking from recollection, I be- not a question of drafting, it is one of prin-
lieve that the suggested amendment was ciple. If the Drafting Committee do in-
agreed to upon the motion of an lion. corporate it, I shall take the opinion of the
member of the) Victorian Assembly in
Convention as to whether we will incor-
order to make sure that the governor- porate an absolutely unknown quantity in
general's position would not be indefinite. this constitution.
Still speaking from recollection, it was, I The Hon. E. BARTON: As far as I
believe, intended that these words should can see, I do not think there is any parti-
be embodied in the clause to bring it in to cular necessity for the insertion of these
accord with some of the constitution acts, words. The governor will be acting under
so that the governor-general, who will be instructions from the Queen. It is utterly
the agent of the Crown, might be limited, impossible to imagine that he will not have
not only by the terms of the constitution,
received those instructions. Whatever he
but by the instructions he would receive
does must also be subject to her Majesty's
from the Imperial authorities, so far as instructions, irrespective of a provision
they had the right to instruct him.
of this kind. Perhaps the better way
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : But is
would be to formally negative the amend-
not that part of the constitution as it is ?
ment, and I will make a note to see if
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I think not.
there is any necessity to deal with it.
I think that it would be very hard to con-
Amendment negatived; clause agreed to.
tend that it was part of the constitution.
Clause 58--Disallowance by order-in-
council of law assented to by governor-
Mr. SYMON : Is it not included in the
word “discretion"? His discretion would
general-agreed to.
be regulated by his instructions.
Clause 59. A proposed law reserved for the
Mr. HIGGINS : The amendment seems to
Queen's pleasure shall not have any force
unless and until within two years from the
fix the instructions as part of the constitu-
day on which it was presented to the governor-
tion !
general for the Queen's assent the governor. 5
The Hon. E. BARTON :
general makes known by speech or message,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes ; but
to each of the houses of the parliament, or by
proclamation, that it has received the assent
the question was raised as to whether the
of the Queen in Council.
clause was not more comprehensive than it An entry of every such speech, message, or 10
was intended to be. At the present time I
proclamation, shall be made in the journals
of each house.
have not got the notes with me that I in-
Amendment suggested by the Assembly of South
tended to have; but I have some recollec-
Australia :
tion that attention was drawn to this mat-
Line 2, omit "not."
ter by. Sir Samuel Griffith. However, it is
The CHAIRMAN : There are a large num-
quite clear that in some instances the in-
ber of anendments to this clause, which
structions are expressly referred to, and for
have been suggested by the House of As-
that reason it was thought advisable, in
sembly, and in one instance by the House
order to save any difficulty here, to put in
of Assembly and the Council of South
these words. The Drafting Committee,
Australia. If hon. members will look at
perhaps, if they think necessary, can insert
them, they will see that the clause, as
the words.
amended, would read as follows:-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
A proposed law reserved for the Queen's plea-
tralia) [8:1]: It seems rather a remark-
sure shall have force after one year unless with-
able circumstance to put an unknown in one year of the day on which it is presented
780
Australia 3
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
to the governor-general for the Queen's assent all we know is that, no voice being given,
the governor-general makes known by speech
the solemn act of both houses of the legis-
or message to each house of parliament, or else
lature has become null and void. It is
by proclamation, that the Queen has thought
fit to disallow the bill.
most harassing that a veto should come
These amendments follow one another. into force by mere silence, and it will be
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South a great improvement if this, amendment
Australia) [8.4]: We all know that in the
is carried. The proposal is simply that
Canadian federation the reservation of
silence should give the royal assent.
If
bills for the royal assent has practically
there is any reason why the bill should be
fallen into disuse. The Governor's in-
vetoed, let her Majesty's ministers inform
structions no longer contain anything with
the federal parliament through the go-
reference to reserving bills. À bill re-
veruor-general of the fact, but if nothing
ceives either the royal assent or veto on
is said, then let the bill bave effect.
presentation. The whole question of re-
Mr. HIGGINS: The principle the hon.
servation of assent has become obsolete.
member is advocating is contained in sec-
tion 58!
I suggested in Adelaide that we might
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: There is
very well, in our federation, follow the
practice which has sprung up in Canada, nothing, very new or unconstitutional in
but at the same time I can see that the
the proposal. I think it will be found con-
conditions are not altogether the same,
venient to adopt it. There will not be the
Canada being much nearer the mother coun-
same amount of misunderstanding, and it
try than we are. The means of communi-
will be very much better to have definite
cation are, of course, much more readily
reasons given for disallowance. Unless we
available. While not proposing that this
hear within a definite time that the bill is
clause should be struck out altogether, the
disallowed, then that bill, which has pro-
House of Assembly of South Australia
bably been the result of a great deal of dis-
proposes that the veto, if exercised, should
cussion, has taken a great deal of time, and
be expressly exercised, and not simply
which very often is thoroughly necessary
brought into effect hy silence. As the to the good government of the community,
clause stands at present, a bill passed by
should become law. The first proposal which
both houses of the federal parliament and
the amendment makes is that the veto shall
reserved for assent is disallowed by mere be active instead of passive, and the second
efluxion of time. The power of veto ought is that the period should be reduced from
to be expressly exercised, if at all, and if two years to one year. Suspense is worse
nothingis said on thematter by her Majesty's than anything. It is far better to know
ministers—that is to say, the Queen in exactly how we stand; and when we con-
Council—the bill should have force. sider the rapidity of the means of com-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Should become an munication as compared with many years
act of parliament without the royal assent? ago, while two years might not have been
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN:If silence too long then, one year can be said to be
can give consent, it can give consent in quite sufficient now.
this matter as in any other. It will give The Hon. S. FRASER :
rise to extreme suspense if the clause The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Not very
remains as it stands, with the power of often ; but there are a'cts as to which it
veto by mere pigeon-holing. We pass an is very important that the Queen's plea-
act, it is reserved for assent, we hear sure should be known as soon as possible.
nothing about it for two years, and then A great deal of expense and irritation is
Commonwealth of
781
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
caused by long delay in knowing what the on the appointment of the governor-gene-
fate of a measure is to be, and there is no ral, whose appointment will be a statutable
reason why, if the reto is to be exercised appointment, and whose duties must be
at all, it should not be exercised within prescribed at once. Under the present ar-
the space of one year. I hope the Com- rangement an appointment might be made
mittee will carry these amendments. I without any prescription of the duties of the
cannot see that anything can be said against governor, other than those prescribed by
them. There is a very great deal both thegeneral letters-patent issued in all cases.
with regard to convenience and celerity, Mr. SYMON : It will be an anomaly to
and with regard to avoidance of irritation, introduce into the constitution of a com
to be said in favour of the view we take. monwealth under the Crown a provision
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [8.10]: that certain acts may become law without
I think the hon. member, Dr. Cockburn, getting the Queen's assent.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
is wrong as regards the provision in the
Canadian act.
[8:13]: It is a suggestion by the South
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It is an in-
Australian Parliament that if tlie Queen
struction to the governor !
does not within a certain time assent to a
Mr. GLYNN: I will read section 55 of bill, her Majesty shall be deemed to have
of the Canadian act :
assented to it. The suggestion reduces the
A bill reserved for the signification of the
time from two years to one.
It would be
Queen's pleasure shall not have any force unless a novel feature to say that a proposed law,
and until within two years from the day on passed by the federal parliament consisting
which it was presented to the governor-general
for the Queen's assent, the governor-general sig.
of the Queen and two houses, should be-
nifies by speech or message to each of the
come law without the consent of the
houses of parliament or by proclamation that it Sovereign.
has received the assent of the Queen in Council.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: If it is a good
I agree with the position taken up by the feature, never mind!
hon. member. In the convention at Ade- Mr. GLYNN : Why should not the Go-
laide I suggested that this clause might be vernor assent in all cases with power of
struck out and that clause 53 be made to disallowance ?
act in both cases, which simply gave the The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Be-
governor power to assent to a bill and cause he is guided by his instructions !
allowed the Queen within a certain time The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I would point
to disallow it if necessary. I fail to see out that this provision only applies to pro-
the necessity of practically suspending the posed laws reserved for the Queen's assent.
law for two years, and if the Queen It is quite true that in Canada the royal
should not then give her assent to it de- instructions to the Governor-General are
claring the law to be null and void. I fail different from the royal instructions to
to see the necessity for keeping up that Australian governors.
practice, because in the earlier portions of The Hon. E. BARTON: They would be
the bill we have practically substituted the same if we federated !
the delegation of the powers of the go- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: No doubt
vernor-general for the letters-patent. The they would be the same. My recollection
real reason for keeping up this clause was is that the royal instructions to the Go-
that originally the letters-patent might vernor-General of Canada do not contain
from time to time be varied; but the in- any provision for reserving bills, but still
structions which will be given will be given the Governor-General has power to reserve
782
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
1
a bill. If, for instance, he sees that it is Clause 60. The executive power and authority
one which concerns Imperial affairs, and
of the commonwealth is vested in the Queen, and
shall be exercised by the governor-general as the
may, if passed, entangle the empire, or be
Queen's representative.
in conflict with treaty obligations he may
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
very well think that it is a bill to be re-
South Wales) [8:18]: I desire to point out
served for the signification of the Queen's
a verbal amendment which is not of much
pleasure, and a period of two years is better
consequence; but I think it would be more
for the federation than a period of one year, in harmony with the nature of the clause
because the circumstances of the case which vests in the Queen the power and
might be such that a correspondence, and authority of the commonwealth. I move :
perhaps a very long correspondence, be- That the word “exercised,” line 3, be omitted
tween the mother country and foreign with a view to the insertion of the word "exercis-
able."
nations, might ensue, which would extend
Amendment agreed to; clause, as
beyond the period of one year from the
time of the passing of the bill by the fed amended, agreed to.
Clause 61. There shall be a council to aid and
eral parliament. If we limited the period
advise the governor-general in the government
to one year, and that correspondence ex-
of the commonwealth, and such council shall be
tended beyond one year, the whole of the styled the federal executive council ; and the
legislation would fail. Two years are persons who are to be members of the council
shall be from time to time chosen and sum-
better for the commonwealth than one
moned by the governor-general and sworn as
year, because the royal assent, if given in
executive councillors, and shall hold office during
two years, would effectuate the desire of
his pleasure.
the commonwealth to pass the bill into Suggested amendment by the Legislative Council
law. Therefore, I think we should retain
of South Australia :
After "council," line 1, insert " of six."
the clause in its present form.
Amendment negatived.
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South
Suggested amendment by the Legislative Council Australia) [8:19]: I am very much obliged
of South Australia negatived:
to the Committee for giving me the oppor-
Omit “two years ” insert " one year.” tunity of expressing my opinion on one, at
Clause agreed to.
all events, of the great principles involved
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South in this constitution, and I am obliged to
Wales) [8:16]: I understand that it is you, Sir Joseph Abbott, for temporarily
your desire, Mr. Chairman, and I am sure relieving me of my official duties. I take
it will be the wish of the Committee, to
it that the amendment to insert the words
take part in the discussion of the clauses "of six” will be a test question as to whether
relating to the executive. An hon. mem- in this federal constitution we should re-
ber who has devoted so much attention tain what is commonly called “cabinet
and research as you have to the considera- responsible government.” The amendment
tion of that question, would not be well which we are now considering is one which
treated by us if he had not the opportu- is suggested in effect not only by the Legis-
nity afforded to him of joining in the dis- lative Council of South Australia, but also
cussion. I therefore move:
by the House of Assembly of South Aus-
That the Chairman have leave to address the tralia. If the amendment suggested by the
Convention from the floor of the House, and Legislative Council of South Australia is
that the Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott, in the mean-
carried in its entirety, the clause will read
time, take the chair.
as follows:
Question resolved in the affirmative.
There shall be a council of six to aid and advise
The Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott took the chair. the governor-general in the government of the
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
783
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
commonwealth, and such council shall be styled Constitution. You are departing from the
the federal executive council, and the persons
form of government to which the people
who are members of the council shall be chosen
at the commencement of each parliament to hold
are accustomed, and to which they are
office for three years, unless the two houses of attached, and endeavouring to form a paper
parliament sitting together as one house should constitution"; but, notwithstanding all
otherwise determine. The senate and house of
that, I have the courage of my opinions.
representatives shall each choose three members,
It may be that defeat is now hovering over
Now, I admit at the outset that if we are
my head; but I have paid a great deal of
going to abandon the system of cabinet
attention to this subject, and I have con-
government the words which I have just scientiously arrived at the conclusion that
read will not be sufficient, but they are
the federal form of government is incon-
quite sufficient to test the question. The
sistent with the cabinet form of executive.
house of assembly of South Australia bas
The very first speech ever made in reference
proposed in clause 63 to leave out the words
to this phase of the question was made by
governor-general may from time to time
Sir Samuel Griffith in 1891 sitting in that
appoint officers," that is, menibers of the
place. Those who heard that speech must
executive council, and to insert in lieu
remember that from beginning to end, in
thereof the words " parliament may elect.”
that suggestive manner which is peculiarly
These two suggestions come to the same characteristic of the hon. gentleman, he
thing. Both houses of the legislature of
gave utterance to the opinion that if we
South Australia have recommended that
were to have federation we should have to
we should abandon the system to which we
abandon responsible government. That dis-
have been so long accustomed, under which
tinguished gentleman has never from that
the people of this country have grown up, day to this departed from that opinion. He
a system which no doubt will be considered
has put it on record in a pamphlet which I
to have worked most excellently in its re- have here, but from which I will not quote,
sults by most of the distinguished and because I will give hon. members credit for
eminent men I see surrounding me, a sys- having read it. Therefore I do not stand
tem which has been said to be ingrained in alone on this question. I have the Parlia-
the minds and ideas of the people of every ment of South Australia behind me, I have
English-speaking colony. I know very one of themost distinguished statesmen who
well that in attempting to persuade this bas ever studied the federation question
Committee that I am right upon this ques- alongside of me, and although the task that
tion, I have an up-hill task to perform. I have is a difficult one, I hope that before
I dare say I shall be considered by most I sit down I will be able to persuade themem-
persons as running my bead against a stone bers of this Committee that it is a matter,
wall. I have no doubt that in asking the at all events, worthy of the most serious
distinguished Premiers and distinguished consideration. In the first, in the only,
politicians who are now listening to me, speech that I have hitherto made in this con-
to depart from a system under which they vention-which I made at Adelaide-I at-
have obtained the position they now hold, tempted to show that that form of executive
a system which has had so excellent effects, wbich is known as the cabinet-responsible
so far as they are personally concerned, system is inconsistent and unworkable with
and which they therefore naturally imagine the existence of two houses of parliament
is in itself excellent, I shall be met with with co-equal power. In that opinion I
the argument, “You are departing from think I was followed by every member
the fundamental principles of the British of the Convention-at all events many
784
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
members coincided in the opinion, and no tion is, what people? I assert that the
single member said he differed from it- mandate which I have from the people of
but the conclusion at which I desired the South Australia is to form an instrument
Convention to arrive was not arrived at of government under which they will give
as a matter of fact the Convention arrived up-to a certain extent but not altogether
at exactly the opposite conclusion. The -some of the sovereign powers they now
conclusion which I thought would be in- exercise—under which they will give to the
evitable was that inasmuch as we had central authority that is to be constituted
been elected to form a federation we must the power of legislation concerning certain
make all parts of the machine of govern- subjects, provided such central authority
ment subservient to the fundamental prin is constituted in such a manner that the
ciples on which federation is founded. But states will have some controlling influence
the Convention came, I do not say by any even concerning those subject matters. If
resolution, but tacitly came to the conclu- that is so, it does not matter how you define
sion that they would adhere to the cabinet the word “ federation." I assert that we
system of responsible government, and ought, in giving effect to the mandate which
that if there were anything in federation has been committed to us, to consider the
which was inconsistent with such system, wishes and the opinions of the people who
that thing must go. We are not here to sent us here, and it is because I wish to do
discuss abstract principles, we are not here so that I wish to make the federal senate a
to discuss the meaning of words; but I strong, a powerful, and a living house. Can
venture to think that no one will dispute we do that if we have the cabinet form of
the fact that in a federation, properly so- executive? Is it not of the very essence
called, the federal senate must be a power- of the cabinet form of executive that one
ful house. The federal senate ought not house should be predominant? Let us look
to be an entirely subsidiary house similar at Great Britain, or at any one of these
in position to the legislative council of one
colonies, and what do we see? We see the
of the constituent states. My hon. friend, executive a committee of one house, ap-
Mr. Higgins, the other day said that I was pointed by that house, responsible to that
arguing in a vicious circle—that I gave a
house, holding their positions by the will
dogmatic meaning to the word "federation,"
of that house; and we see the other house
and then argued that anything inconsistent -I do not say exactly a mere gilded cere-
with that dogmatic meaning must be con-
mony, but rapidly approximating to it. Is
trary to federation. Now, I will say to it not of the very essence of responsible
that hon. gentleman, and also to all my
government that one house should be the
hearers, that all forms of government are predominant partner, and, not only the
machines to bring into effect the wishes of predominant partner, but the predomi-
the eople, or, at all events, they ought to
nant partner to such an extent that the
.be machines to bring into operation and to other house rapidly ceases to exercise any
give effect to the wishes and opinions of real power? The essence of federation is
the people of the country at the particular the existence of two houses, if not of
time they are formed.
actually co-equal power, at all events of
Mr. HIGGINS : And not of the states of approximately co-equal power. The essence
the country!
of responsible government is the existence
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER : Of the of one chamber of predominant power.
particular people who gave the mandate to Now, how are we to reconcile two irrecon-
those whom they elected. Now, the ques- cilable propositions ? Let me give hon.
[The Hon. Sir R. C. Baker.
Commonwealth of
785
[17 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
inembers a little illustration. In South power over the executive. If such a little
Australia not long ago, the Legislative incident as I have just now narrated takes
Council, a council elected on the broadest place under this federal constitution, what
basis on which any council is elected in will be the result? The federal senate will
these colonies, passed a resolution instruct- say to the federal executive, “You must do
ing the Government to do a very simple so-and-so.” The federal executive will take
thing; a matter of which the details are of no notice. What can the senate do? Will
no importance. It involved the issue of a not such a position as that gradually but
proclamation necessitating an expenditure inevitably bring the federal senate into such
of £15, not by the Government, but by a a position as is now occupied by our local
district council. There was no doubt about legislative councils
legislative councils ? What we want in a
the legality of it. As a matter of fact, it federation is this : an executive responsible
was urged that the Government were bound to parliament, responsible to the people
by law to do this thing, even if they were through the parliament, but not exclusively
not bound by the resolution of the Legisla responsible to one house of parliament.
tive Council. But what did they do? They We want the executive so constituted that
sat secure with a large majority in the other it is enabled to lead debate and legislation
house, who they thought, and probably cor- in both houses of parliament, not dissoci-
rectly, would uphold their inaction. They ated altogether from the legislature, as is
said, “We will not do it"; and the Council the case in America, but so connected with
were powerless to compel them to do it. parliament that it can perform the func-
Will not the federal senate be in the same tion of leading and informing parliament,
position if the federal executive is exclu- which is necessary to secure harmonious
sively responsible to one house of parlia- working, but at the same time so consti-
ment? I cannot see how any different tuted as not to be exclusively responsible
conclusion can be arrived at. In South to one house. I daresay I may be told
Australia, when this thing happened, it that I am trying to form a paper constitu-
was argued in the Council that their resolu- tion. I assert that it is exactly the con-
tion should be obeyed; but how could trary, that those people who are trying to
they secure its observance? How could graft the British Executive on the Ameri-
they vindicate their position? They had can Federal Constitution, are trying to
only one way of doing it, and that was by form a paper constitution; they are trying
refusing to grant supply, or to pass mea- to bring into existence a machine which has
sures in which they concurred, and they not yet been known to the world.
shrank from so drastic a course. The fact The Hon. S. FRASER : Not in Canada !
is that an upper house in these colonies has The Hon. Sir R. O. BAKER: Mr.
only one weapon. It is like a fort which Walter Bagehot has pointed out in most
has only one big gun, and that gun so powerful language how difficult it is to
powerful and so uncertain in its effect alter any of the delicate portions of the
that they hardly dare to let it off, because machinery which constitutes a government,
it may burst and injure those who occupy composed of checks and balances, and how
the fort, and possibly blow it to pieces. if you alter one insignificant looking wheel,
This big gun is the power of refusing to you may throw the whole system out of
grant supplies, and to thus cause the stop gear. How much more true is that if you
page of all the functions of government. try to alter this foreign machine--because
Of course they cannot use it except in the I assert that the federal form of govern-
very last resort. They have no practical ment is an absolutely foreign machine--
786
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
1
a machine of which none of us have any provisions that will render it unacceptable
personal knowledge concerning its actual to the people. Now, do the people greatly
working in one of it most important parts ! revere this cabinet system ? I do not
If you try to alter this foreign machine think they do. If you were to poll the
by taking out one of the most important people of Australia from one end to the
portions of that machinery and inserting other, I think they would say, "Abolish
another, by inserting a fly-wheel instead of it.” The popular opinion is this: that it
a cog-wheel, you will turn the whole thing simply results in a struggle between the ins
out of gear. I do not say that we cannot and the outs. It has been described as ten
form a workable government with the ex- men trying to carry on the government,
ecutive form of cabinet; but I do say that with another ten men trying to prevent
you cannot form a workable federal govern- them. But whether that is true or whether
ment, that the machine will not work in the it is not, I do not think there can be
manner intended—at all events, it will not much doubt that, in the opinion of the
work in the manner I intend, it will not man in the street, "the ins and the
work in the manner the people in the outs” is a game played by prominent
smaller states intend it will result in an politicians, in which in many cases prin-
amalgamation instead of a federation. We ciple is conspicuous by its absence, and the
are now really discussing one of the many struggle is for place and pay. I am not
phases of the subject which we have dis- saying whether that is or is not true. I am
cussed from the first, namely, the relative only asserting that, in my opinion, that
power and position of the two houses. I is the view held by the general body of
want the niembers of this Committee to
the people, and that it will be no bar to
consider carefully that, no matter what the acceptance of this constitution by the
theoretical powers you may give to the people of the various states, if we abolish
senate, those powers are inoperative unless the cabinet system of responsibility, and
they will work out in a practical manner- adopt something else in its stead. The
are useless unless you provide for their question is : what shall we adopt? In the
practical application. I do not care whether Constitutional Committee, in Adelaide, I
the federal senate has or has not sufficient moved the following resolution :-
theoretical powers. I do say this: that, no That there shall be six members to be chosen
matter what theoretical powers you give it,
at the commencement of each parliament to hold
if it has no voice in the constitution of the
office for three years unless the two houses of
parliament shall otherwise determine. The states
executive, if it has no power over the ex- assembly and the house of representatives shall
ecutive after that executive is constituted, each choose three ministers. A minister shall
then it will cease to be a powerful factor
have a seat in and the right to speak in either
house, but he shall have no right of voting ex-
in the state, and become a mere glorified
cept in the house of which he is a member.
appendage of the house of representatives.
Ministers shall be individually responsible to
Mr. GLYNN : Suppose one house wants both houses, and either house may, by resolu-
a cabinet minister out and the other wants tion, demand that two houses shall sit together
him in, will the cabinet be as strong as it
as one house to consider the conduct or policy of
a minister.
is at present?
The Hon. Sir R. O. BAKER: I do not
I take it that that system, if adopted, will
want a cabinet at all. I will come to that
shatter to atoms the quasi-corporate char-
by-and-by, and will explain what I do
acter of cabinet governments.
want. Perhaps I may be told that we The Right Hon. Sir Johy FORREST":
must not load up this constitution with They will be all kings!
[The Hon. Sir R. C. Baker.
Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
787
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: I admit old institutions, even after they have ceased
what my right hon. friend says. I admit to be useful, which are historic survivals
that every one will manage his own of ancient realities, still, in framing this
department !
new constitution of a foreign character,
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : it is absurd for us to import into it a
All premiers !
British sham, which will not work with
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: All
pre- that foreign constitution. When I was led
miers, in their own departments, irrespec- away I was commencing to describe what
tive of every other minister, and the Go- would be the effect of the system which I
vernor will probably not have to act on the suggest. One effect would be that each
advice of anybody at all. As a matter of minister would manage his own department,
fact, we know that the supposed acting of subject only to parliament; that there
the Governor, on the advice of ministers, would be no collective responsibility by
is a mere sham.
ministers. Why should not parliament,
Several Hon. MEMBERS : Oh !
who are the elect of the people, who repre-
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: Does sent the people, retain in their own hands
anybody here imagine that the governor the power of dictating to each individual
exercises any real responsibility ?
minister the policy he should pursue ? In
An HON. MEMBER: No!
matters of administration, let him manage
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: Are not his department; in matters of policy, let
the so-called advisers to the governor
him be dictated to by parliament.
dictators to the Governor ?
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : Six
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: No doubt about different policies !
that!
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: Six dif-
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: There is ferent policies, if necessary—one for each
no doubt about that, and that is another department.
reason why we should not start this new The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: How would
constitution by inserting the British sham you manage about the finances ?
that the governor chooses his advisers and The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: That is
acts on their advice. What are the facts just what I was coming to. I will give the
at present? The real facts are that the hon. memberan illustration of how I would
parliament dictates to the governor his manage about the finances: Not very long
so-called choice of a premier. I do not ago, in Germany, there was a difference
say that there is any absolute direct elec- of opinion between the Minister of Marine
tion such as I propose ; but who can say and the Minister of Finance. The Minister
that the lower house of parliament at pre- of Marine said, “I want so many more
sent does not dictate to the governor who millions in order to build new ships.” The
shall be Premier, and who will say that Minister of Finance said, “I cannot afford
“the Premier is not, in the choice of his col- it, and I cannot give you the money." Who
leagues, greatly influenced by the consider- decided between them? Why, the legisla-
ation as to whom he thinks the lower house
ture did? Why should they not decide ?
will approve of ? So that though there is no Who decides now!—why that modern auto-
direct election, there is even at present, in crat, the Premier. Why should the direct
one sense of the word, an indirect election representatives of the people delegate to
of ministers by one house of our local par- one man that power and those responsibili-
liaments. Although I am not one of those ties with which they have been intrusted
who would like to needlessly knock down by the people? I may perhaps be taunted
788
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
with this consideration : that the collective the local parliament, and bye-elections. We
responsibility of ministers has grown up, shall have to elect a federal senate, and a
and been an evolution out of the individual federal house of representatives, and we
responsibility of ministers. But the mem- shall have bye-elections again there. It
bers of this Convention must recollect that is difficult enough now to persuade people
the original responsibility of ministers was to go to the poll ; but if we double the
not to parliament, but to the Crown, and system of elections it will be still more
that we have never yet tried the system difficult. Then, if we have this double dis-
with individual responsibility to parlia solution, this double referendum, or this
ment. That, however, is not an untried
mass referendum—whichever we agree to
system. That is a system which exists in we shall have an infinitely greater num-
Switzerland, and, so far as I can gather ber of elections; so that the average elector
from my reading, it is a system which
will have to rise early in the morning, and
works well in that country.
look at his diary, and see what election he
Mr. GLYNN : And it is in the Constitu- is going to attend. If we abandon respon-
tion of France, and has been the cause of sible government there will be no deadlocks;
untold trouble there according to some
there will be no penal dissolution, and con-
writers!
sequently few elections, less trouble and
The Hon. Sir R. O. BAKER: I believe
loss to the people, and less expense.
they have had in France forty different
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: And no popular
constitutions of late years, and nearly all
control!
of them have become unworkable, chiefly
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: There
because of the characteristics of the French will be just as much popular control as
people, and because they wanted to give there is at present, and there will be more
immediate effect to the uneducated and satisfaction amongst the people. To hear
unchecked will of the people without due hon, members talking in this Convention,
consideration.
one would think that the average elector
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: We are now is one who studies all the possible political
proposing to try some foreign inventions ! questions of the day, and rushes to all the
The Hon. Sir R. O. BAKER: This elections; whereas, we know exactly the
federation is a foreign invention.
contrary. However, this is, perhaps, a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Tho- matter of minor importance. I do not want
roughly Australian !
to labour this question. I have addressed
The Hon. Sir R. O. BAKER: Federa- the Committee, perhaps, longer than I
tion ?
intended. I have desired to be as clear
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : We' and concise as possible. I hope that the
are going to have an Australian religion, question is of such importance that it will
too!
receive due consideration, because I feel
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: I have that from the very start of the 1891 Con-
no doubt that the right hon. gentleman vention in Sydney to the present day, to
will be the high priest. There is one the present hour, we have been gradually
minor consideration which I may as well frittering away the power, the position,
mention, now that I remember it. Under and the dignity of the senate; and I want
this new system we wish to establish, to do something to counteract that to
we shall double the number of elections some small extent. When I spoke in Ade-
which the people will have to attend. laide I was told, “ You ought not to go to
We have now in each colony elections to foreign countries for your constitution ;
[The Hon. Sir R. C. Baker.
Conmonwealth of
789
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
you should stick to everything that is and reason have their effect. If it does
British”; and now where are we going for not show that, it shows that time has its
our referendum ? We are going to Swit- effect. I hope that, inasmuch as the pro-
zerland, and if we can go to Switzerland bability is that we shall not conclude our
with advantage for a referendum, I do not labours at the present sitting, that time
see it is any more foreign if we can go to will have its effect in showing to members
Switzerland, as we may with advantage, for of this Convention how absolutely incon-
an executive. At all events, if this is not an sistent with the fundamental principles
argument, it is a consideration which an- of federation is the principle of cabinet
swers the objection raised in Adelaide—that executive government.
we ought to stick hard and fast by all the Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [8:56]: Since
lines of the British Constitution. Why,
the hon. member has referred to certain
in this constitution which we are now con-
observations in a speech of mine, I hope I
sidering, we have departed at the very
shall not be considered presumptuous if
start from every line of the British Con- I follow him briefly. I understand the
stitution, except that principle which is hon. member to say that he has no hope
common to all manner of constitutions all of changing the views of hon. members as
over the world that there should be re- expressed in Adelaide; but I presume his
presentatives chosen by the people. We speech has been made, not without any
are to have two houses of parliament each definite object, but rather with the idea
en by the same electors. What prin- and desire of stiffening the views of those
ciple in the British Constitution is there who hold with the hon. gentleman these
there? We are to have, instead of a bighly peculiar theories with regard to federa-
centralised government such as they have tion. Now, my attitude with regard to
in Great Britain, a division of powers-
the hon. member's views is very simple.
in fact we are to have, at all events, an
I think he is absolutely logical, and, as I
attempt at a federation. What principle said before, if there is one thing during
in the British Constitution is there there? these debates which has been frequently
· We
e are going to have a double dissolu- instilled into me, and about which I have
tion, and perhaps a double referendum. been often warned, it is that I should not
What principle in the British Constitution be absolutely logical. If you give the hon.
is there there? Why, sir, we have day gentleman his premises, his conclusion is
by day and every day, departed from the irresistible. The only point to which I
lines to which we were told we should wish to draw attention is that he assumes
adhere, and when I ask members of the - and I hope I shall be absolved from
Committee to depart from them a little any intention of presuming that I have
more-I do not say it is a necessary conclu- studied the question as he has done, or
sion that they ought to do so, but I do say
that I have had the experience in parlia-
that they cannot turn round upon me and mentary matters which he has had—that
say, “ You are asking us to adopt a foreign if you are to have a federation, you must
innovation, and we must adhere to the abandon responsible government. I dis-
British type of constitution.” Probably I pute with him that there is an absolutely
shall be in a minority. But the history of rigid and definite meaning to the word
this Convention, if it has shown anything, “ federation.” He says we must take the
has shown that those who are in a minority word as meaning that the people of the
one day are not necessarily in a minority states give up certain powers on condition
on another. It has shown that argument that they, as states, shall still have a voice
3 I
790
Australia Biil.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.)
in moulding the law.s. But it all depends Sir Richard Baker, is absolutely right-
on the agreement. The question is, what you cannot have responsible government.
agreement we shall make. Are we to enter But this beautiful system that we pro-
into an agreement that the people of the pose makes it evident that for Australian
different states are to give up their powers purposes we cannot have a federation in
on condition that they, as states, shall have the sense in which that word is used by
an equal voice in moulding the laws? The Sir Richard Baker, for the very matter in
hon. gentleman says that in a federation which state interests are most involved is
you must have a states' house and a people's state expenditure, and we are limiting the
house; that these two houses must be equal; powers of the senate in regard to money
that if you have responsible government bills. I want to know where those hon.
you cannot have that state of things—that gentlemen who have been airing theories
under responsible government you must in regard to the absolute necessity in a
have one house greater than the other. federation of having consenting states as
That is quite true. The two things are well as consenting, people now are ? I said
inconsistent. They will not mix logically; in my opening speech that that rigid
they are perfectly irreconcilable. It is theory of federation was like a bubble
quite certain that if you have a federation that has been pricked, and I adhere to
in the form of that certain definite, rigid that view now. I submit that in no form
agreement which he describes, you can- of government are two houses necessary
not have responsible government. But -I hope I shall not be taken as advo-
the hon. gentleman treats federation as if cating that there should be only one
it were an Athena sprung ready armed house in this government. As Benjamin
from the head of Jupiter—that it was Franklin said a long time ago, the system
something absolutely defined from its first
of having two houses does bear a resem-
inception. But I take it that "federa- blance to trying to drag a cart with one
tion” is a word used to indicate a number horse in front and one borse behindone
of devices which have, as their general horse pulls one way and the other horse
object, the relegating of certain subjects pulls the other way. But I do not say
to the central government, and the leaving that in a federation there is no room for
of other subjects to the state governinents. a second house. I rather think that John
I take it that there is no reason for treat- Stuart Mill has expressed the more correct
ing federation as if it were a matter to be view when he said : it is not for a check
explained among words in a school-book. that you want the second chamber, but it
I take it as a simple matter of common- is to prevent the one chamber feeling the
sense and expediency. I may say that I deterioration which otherwise follows the
have read the pamphlet on the federal execu- sense of irresponsible power. There is a
tive which the hon. member, Sir Richard good deal to be said in support of that
Baker, has published ; and I cannot see opinion. I do not intend, as this is not a
how those hon. members who adopt this live question, to go any further into the
rigid view of federation can escape from matter now. I would not have had the
pre-
the logic of the hon. member, Sir Richard sumption to rise after so weighty a speech as
Baker, which seems to me to be absolutely that delivered by my hon. friend if he had
conclusive. It seems to me that if you once not made some reference to what I had
start with the idea that you must have said. Whatever may be the course of the
the consent of the states, as well as the debate—whatever may be the result of our
consent of the people, the hon. member, deliberations here--I feel that the chief of
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
791
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
our difficulties which have arisen in the who has submitted this proposition to the
course of framing this constitution has Committee. He speaks of the proposed
arisen from the publication throughout federal constitution as a foreign institution.
Australia of a rigid theory of federation Ishould like him to tell us where this foreign
to which we now find we cannot practically institution has been put into practical
adhere.
operation in the shape which he proposes.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South I should like to know to what country we
Australia) [9:4] : For many years past I could go for experience of elective minis-
have been a supporter of the principle of ters where the constitution is established
an elective ministry, and I am none the under the Crown—where you have as the
less disposed to support that system on supreme head, not a president elected by
this occasion, because under the proposed the people or by the parliament, but a
amendment a certain proportion of the monarch. It appears to me that my hon.
executive would owe its origin to the friend has lost sight of this essential of
senate or states' house. I think that this our proposed constitution, that we, first
principle is one which in no way destroys of all, insist that it should be under the
the principle of responsible government. Crown. Theoretically, this may be a sham;
It makes each minister more directly re- but, term it what you like, the mandate of
sponsible than ever to parliament. Having the people is that the semblance of autho-
advocated this reform in the local legisla- rity is to proceed from the Crown itself.
ture as being applicable to the colony I My hon. friend says that these ministers
have the honor to represent, I think it or executive officers are to derive their
is still more applicable to the new condi- policy from the parliament. We know
tions under federation. Of course I do very well that our experience of parlia-
not believe there is much prospect of its ments is that they change their policy very
being carried, but I am glad it has been frequently.
brought forward. I think that if it is not An Hon. MEMBER: So do ministers !
carried at the present time it will spring up The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: We
under federation, and will become the prac- must therefore have it.as a condition of
tice in the federation when once formed. I the proposal put forward'that the ministers
am of opinion that the principle of electing of education, of lands, of railways, and
officers is superior to that of nomination. whatever ministers you choose to make,
As a matter of fact, ministers are at pre- must change their policy from week to
sent practically nominated by a member of week in order to keep in touch with the
the house of assembly. I think that a much parliament which elects them.
superior way is for the members of the The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER: Do they
executire to be directly elected by and re- not do that now!
sponsible to the assembly to which they The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: Even
owe their origin, and from which they if they do, it is upon rare occasions. It is
derive their powers. I hope that the hon. not the rule, but the exception to the rule.
member will take a division upon this My hon. friend's proposal, however, would
question. Should he do so, I shall have make it the established rule that ministers
much pleasure in voting with him.
should be the agents of parliament, to give
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New executive effect to its wishes and direc-
South Wales) (9.6]: There are one or two tions. Suppose the two houses of parlia-
matters which I should have liked to have ment differed as to their policy—the senate
had further elucidated by the hon, member desiring one policy and the house of repre-
792
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
)
sentatives another—which should the min- which are really the motive of our desire
istry follow ? More than that, does not for retaining that connecting link. We
the hon. member know that one-half of desire to retain that connection, as far as
the work of an executive body, be it a possible, under our federation. I hold, with
cabinet government or any other form of the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, that we may
government, consists in administrative offi- use this term “ federation” in such a way
cial acts which do not come under the as to run the theory to death. We may, as
cognisance of parliament at all? How, the hon.member, Sir Richard Baker, points
too, are you to reconcile the existence of out, make a workable constitution, and, if
cordiality and agreement which is neces- we make it workable, I do not care how
sary in order that these functions may be many theories I violate, or help to violate,
properly carried out, if you have the min- as long as we make the constitution work-
isters selected, not at their own choice, not able, and promote the happiness of those
with any desire to work in harmony with who are to live under it.
each other, not from any guaranteed policy The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South
which will ensure harmonious working, Australia) [9.13] : I should like to say one
but from different parts of the house, hold- word in reply to the remarks of the hon.
ing different views, and, possibly, some member, Mr. Carruthers. He says the
of them, not on the friendliest terms ? system I advocate is not workable if this
You may see, as a consequence, ministers is to be a constitution under the Crown.
and their administrative arrangements re- Why not? We have at present a constitu-
ducing public affairs to a state of chaos, tion under the Crown, in which, practically,
and bringing them into contempt with the who are to be the advisers of the Crown
people. As a necessary corollary to the are dictated by the lower house of parlia-
hon. member's proposition, if he wishes to ment, and, practically, those advisers tell
make the federation one consistent with the governor what he has to do. Where
the foreign lands from which it is sup- is the difference between the system which
posed to be derived, let one supreme head exists at present and the system I am now
be elected by the people or the parliament, advocating so far as that point is con-
and let that person have the responsibility cerned? I can see none. The hon, mem-
of all executive authority as in the United ber, Mr. Carruthers, says supposing the
States; then the federal machine will two houses differ, what policy is the min-
work as smoothly as the greatest theorist ister appointed by one of these houses to
would desire ; but that machine would not adopt? If the hon. member had followed
agree with the inclinations and desires of me, he would have seen that that is pro-
the people, who have commissioned us to vided for by a modification of the Swiss
forni a federal constitution under the system, namely, that the ministers should
Crown. I take it that, if we now agree to be individually responsible to both bouses,
have so drastic a change as this, it would and either house might by resolution de-
result in the machine having to be further mand that the two bouses shall sit to-
amended, so as to place in it this principle gether in one house and consider the con-
of an elective governor or president, and duct and policy of the ministers, so that
so do away with the one link which con- the two houses sitting together in case of
nects us with the mother land. It may be "a a disagreement shall decide on what the
British sham”; but it is an essential prin- policy of the ministry shall be. That is, as
ciple that we retain our connection with to those political and ministerial acts that
the mother land and with its institutions are of sufficient importance to come before
[The Hon. J. II. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
793
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
i
parliament. There are many ministerial incompatible with federation ; but he in-
acts that do not come before either parlia- troduced into most of our minds a doubt.
ment or premier under the present system. on the question, and we thought that, from
What difference would there be if each our point of view, it would be better in
minister managed his own department (as this cast-iron constitution not to say either
he does at present) subject to the dictation on the one hand that the responsible
of parliament, or to the dictation of his cabinet system should be adopted, or, on
premier! I do not see any difference. I be- the other hand, that it should not be
lieve there is a very large majority against adopted, and the idea was to leave out these
me, and, therefore, I shall not labour the
sub-clauses so that the matter might be
matter any longer.
left entirely an open question—so that
Amendment negatived.
either system which might be required as
Clause 61 (Constitution of executive
time went on, night be adopted, and the
council for commonwealth) agreed to. federation work out its own salvation to
Clause 62 (Application of provisions re-
use a phrase used here before. I am not
ferring to governor-general) agreed to.
going to urge the matter at all. I simply
Clause 63. For the administration of the give this explanation of the reasons why
executive government of the commonwealth,
the clause is proposed to be amended in
the governor-general may, from time to time,
the manner indicated.
appoint officers to administer such depart-
5 ments of state of the commonwealth as the Suggested amendments negatived.
governor.general in council may from time to
Amendment suggested by the House of Assembly
time establish, and such officers shall hold
of Tasmanica
office during the pleasure of the governor- Omnit the last paragraph. Insert “Every
general, and shall be capable of being chosen
minister of state shall, during his tenure of
10 and of sitting as members of either house of
office, have the right of entrance to and audience
the parliament.
in both houses of the parliament, but shall not
Such officers shall be members of the federal
be entitled to vote in either house, unless he has
executive council, and shall be the Queen's
been duly elected a member thereof."
ministers of state for the commonwealth.
15 After the first general election no minister
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania)
of state shall hold office for a longer period [9.17]: In this suggested amendment hon.
than three calendar months unless be shall be
members will discover the handiwork of
or become a member of one of the houses of
the parliament.
the Hon. I. A. Clark, who, it will be re-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assen- membered, gave to the Convention of 1891,
bly of South Australia :
from the very bench at which I stand, an
Omit “governor-general may from time to
admirable disquisition on the subject dealt
time appoint,” line 3, with a view to insert
with this evening by Sir Richard Baker.
“parliament may elect.”
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
It will be remembered that he gave a quo-
of South Australici :
tation from Freeman with respect to the
Omit first and second paragraphs.
advisability of exempting a ministry from
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South responsibility to parliament, and of assimi
-Australia) (9'15]: I think it right that I lating our practice more with that of the
should state the reasons why the South American states. Therefore Mr. Clark
Australian Parliament proposed these desired that the Convention should elimi-
amendments. Of course, we were aware nate paragraph 3 of the clause. The provision
of the arguments which Sir Richard Baker found its way into the bill at Adelaide, and
has used here to-night in reference to the was not in the bill of 1891. If these
executive. He had not convinced all of words are struck out it will be possible for
us that the cabinet system was absolutely a minister to be in office for a considerable
794.
Australici Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
.
period, even though he may not have the There, of course, I think he is correct. It
responsibility. of being elected. I am not was as a safeguard to responsible govern-
commending this clause to the Convention, ment that this sub-clause was inserted.
but I consider it my duty to call the atten- But it is submitted that, in order to attain
tion of hon. members to the purpose which
that object, it is not necessary to insist upon the
presence of all the members of the cabinet in the
the mover in Tasmania had in view. In
parliament of the commonwealth, because we
the words proposed to be inserted, the idea
have seen several instances, both in England and
is to follow the United States practice. in the Australian colonies, of one or more mem-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The United bers of the cabinet being unable to obtain a seat
in parliament during the whole of one or two
States practice ?
sessions; and so far from securing for all time
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: I refer to
the adoption of the system of responsible govern-
the practice which allows a minister or the ment, it might be found in the future to facilitate
president to speak in either house.
and bring about a system of election of ministers
by parliament and a co-terminus duration of
Mr. SYMON: The Sandwich Islands prac- their term of office with the duration of parlia-
tice !
ment. The proposed substitute for sub-section
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH: The attor- III is similar to the provision which finds a place
in the constitutions of France and Italy, and
ney-general may not be able to get repre-
of other countries which have adopted the sys-
sentation in the senate of the views which
tem of responsible government, and which have
he may hold, and a bill to which his advo- found the provision very advantageous in secur-
cacy could be given by his presence mighting the more perfect and satisfactory working of
that system of government.
be under serious disadvantages by reason
of the want of that advocacy. So it might I have been unable to convince myself,
be as far as the treasurer is concerned. It sir, that this is a desirable proposal to in-
might be very convenient to support his
sert in the constitution, but I have thought
own financial proposals by visiting and
it was only a matter of duty, as well as
speaking in the senate even although he
courtesy, to the very able gentleman who
has forwarded these reasons to lay them
might not vote. I have considered it my
before the Convention. On the whole, I
duty to bring these matters under the ob-
servation of hon. members not intending
think we may do well to retain the clause
personally to press them.
as it stands. I am not quite sure that
The CHAIRMAN : I will put the question
there would be a direct opposition between
the clause as it stands and the amendment
that the paragraph stand part of the clause.
If it is struck out the Tasmanian sugges-
if it were inserted; but, in any case, I
tion will be inserted, but if the paragraph
take it that we ought to retain the clause
as it stands, whatever is done about the
stands I cannot put it.
amendment. As to the amendment, I will
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
require to be a little convinced before I
Wales) (9.21]: I think it my duty to put
I can consider it a desirable innovation.
before the Coinmittee some of the reasons
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9.23]:
which my friend, Mr. Inglis Clark, the
I intend to vote against this paragraph,
Attorney-General of Tasmania, has com-
because I think it is a matter for legisla-
municated to me in favour of this amend-
tion. Hon, members will have noticed
ment, leaving them to the judgment of the
from the pamphlet published by Sir Samuel
Committee. Mr. Inglis Clark's reasons
Griffith, that this is one of several clauses
proceed in this way:
which he asks should be struck out on the
The apparent object of the insertion of sub-
clause 3 is to secure the adoption of the system
ground that we are really interfering with
of responsible government;
what ought to be the legislative power of
t
[The Hom, Sa P. 0. Fush.
Commonwealth of
79.5
[17 SEPT.,, 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the commonwealth. I would suggest that given to one house, no doubt, and in that
if this amendment be made, the words, case the responsibility would be primarily
"until parliament otherwise provides," to that house. In the working of that sys-
ought to be inserted at the beginning of tem, parliament may, from time to time, in-
it, because, otherwise, you are making pro- sist on there being a number of members in
vision in the constitution for what is a this or that house. It can do that by re-
matter of legislation. The proper way solution, and there is nothing in the con-
would be to give parliament power in clause stitution to prevent it; and if it can do
52 to make such a law. Although this that by resolution, I do not see that there
power does exist in the French Constitu- is anything in the world which will pre-
tion of 1875, that Constitution contains vent it making it also a subject of legisla-
a provision for the responsibility of two tion. But that is a matter which I think
houses on somewhat the same lines, sir, as cannot find its place in any constitution,
you recommended for the adoption of this but which must be left to the evolution
Committee, and it is probably in consequence of the constitution itself.
of some of the ministers being by the Con- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
stitution in the Senate in France that the tralia) [9.27]: I also should like to ask the
right of audience in both houses has been leader of the Convention a question. Look-
given, I do not think we are called upon ing at the Tasmanian amendment I see
to adopt the French precedent, considering that it might be very convenient to have
that the circumstances are so very different. this power, and if the power could not be
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: given under our constitution without an
(Western Australia) [9.25]: I should like alteration of that constitution, I think we
to ask the leader of the Convention whether might meet the difficulty by carrying the
the parliament has power to legislate in amendment as proposed by Tasmania, with
regard to the number of ministers who the words added before the amendment,
would sit in either house ? It appears to “Parliament may provide that.” Then it
me necessary that there should be some
would certainly confer upon the federal
provision that one or more ministers should parliament power to do this, as I think we
be members of the senate. Under the Con- ought to confer the power, unless it can
stitution of Western Australia one mem- have it otherwise without a special provi-
ber of the ministry must be a member of sion.
the Legislative Council, and it seems to Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9.28]:
me desirable that there should be some I suggest that the proper way will not be
provision in reference to the matter. for the House to accept the amendment
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South suggested bythe hon. member, Mr. Holder.
Wales) [9.26]: There is no distinct provi- His suggestion is not to confer the power
sion in the bill that there should be any on the constitution, but to give parliament
distinct number of members of the govern- power to legislate for it. If you begin to
"ment in either house. I take it that there
say parliament may do this and not do
will be an inherent power in parliament to that, you interfere with the delegation of
legislate on this subject, and for this rea- the powers under clause 52—that is, with
son : the powers of responsible government the constitution as we are drafting it.
are mainly given in this constitution, not by The proper way is to stick to the delega-
any
direct form of words but because the tion of the powers under clause 52, because
power of the purse is given to the parlia- they are the definition of what parliament
ment. The power of the purse is mainly
can do.
:
796
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. HIGGINS : Are not powers given all
through the bill ?
Mr. GLYNN: I do not think so. So
far as political machinery is concerned
they are; but there are no powers which
are not merely functional given to parlia-
ment except under clause 52. Even under
this very part of the bill itself, as clause 69
will show, where there is a specification of
certain other things, such as customs and
excise, taken over as federal departments,
the prescription or assignment of these
departments is merely auxiliary to clause
52, and gives amplification to its provisions.
I suggest the addition of the words "unti
parliament otherwise provides."
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
[9:29]: I feel considerable delicacy and
hesitancy in speaking on this matter; but
in the absence of a gentleman whom I hope
to see present after the next adjournment
of the Convention—Sir Samuel Griffith-
I would draw attention to the fact that
he in his pamphlet refers to this very mat-
ter. In his notes on the drafting of the
Constitution Bill he says:
The only material change made by the Con-
vention in the draft bill of 1891 with respect to
the executive government is the introduction of
a provision that after the first general election
no minister of state shall bold office for a longer
period than three calendar months, unless he
shall be or become a member of one of the houses
of the parliainent.
He goes on to say:
Cannot then the federal parliament be trusted
to insist upon ministers being members, if it
thinks fit to do so? Why this want of confidence
in the parliament? They will have to work the
mạchine which is now being constructed. Why
should the use of a recent invention never triecl
in a federal state be prescribed for all time, and
why in the case of what is admittedly a mere
experiment prohibit the use of a safety-valve ?
In truth the reason for the insertion of this
provision seems to be a fear that the sacred ark
of responsible government may not find a secure
anchorage in the unknown sea of a federal con-
stitution, and a desire to establish an artificial
shelter for it. But surely, if the institution in
its present form is good it will last, and if it is
not good it ought to be modified. Precedent,
with one or two exceptions, is distinctly against.
the proposal. The history of most countries
where responsible government has been tried is
against it. In regard to law officers, especially
who in the Australian commonwealth will have
to discharge most important functions, there
have been frequent instances in which the neces-
sity has arisen of appointing a lawyer not a
member of parliament.
In Queensland in days gone by there have
been ministers without portfolio who have.
not been members of parliament.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : How long did
they hold office ?
Mr. WALKER: They held office with-
out.portfolio, and without remuneration,
for the whole lifetime of the cabinet--
speaking from memory.
The Hon. E. BARTON : What was par-
liament doing all the time?
Mr. WALKER : I am not prepared to
say that that condition of things lasted
very long, but I can mention one or two
instances, The Hon. George Raff was
minister without portfolio in the Herbert
administration. Then Sir Samuel Griffith
continues :
With the proposed small number of members
of both houses, the difficulty is extremely likely
to occur. If it is desired that the best men
should be appointed ministers of state, why
arbitrarily limit the field of choice? It may be
noted that the provision is distinctly objection-
able in form, as being a limitation of the royal
prerogative. This term it may be well to observe
rarely expresses the embodiment of the sovereign
power of the whole people, and does not signify.
the personal privilege of an individual. But,
perhaps, the strongest objection to such attempts
to fetter the freedom of a nation is their utility.
The exclusion of ministers of state from Congress
in the United States has not prevented the prac-
tical exercise of important functions which under
our system of government properly appertain to
the executive government by committees of Con-
gress, and a law which required that executive
functions should be formally exercised by a
member of parliament would not prevent the
real exercise of them in the name of a member
by a person not a member if the state desired
that they should be so exercised. The result
mignt be the establishment of a bureaucracy
Siin
[Mr. Walker.
Commonwealth of
797
[17 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
under the disguise of responsible government. going to have responsible government, par-
It is manifestly desirable that the person who
liament would take care that its ministers.
rarely exercises authority should, as far as prac-
are members of parliament, and it would
ticable, be the same person who is formally
responsible for its exercise.
be a pity to introduce a hard and fast rule
It seems to me that we might make an into the constitution when there is no ne-
addition to the present laws in the manner cessity for it. The parliament would see
suggested by the hon. and learned member, that the responsibility was kept alive ;
Mr. Glynn, by inserting the words “until and if we leave that provision out, I also
parliament otherwise determines." If the agree that, as to the amendment from Tas-
question comes to a division, I shall support mania, that is not a matter that need be
the insertion of the words proposed by the embedded in this constitution. It is pro-
hon. member, Sir Philip Fysh.
vided for in various ways; and parliament
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria) might deal with it as each particular case
[9:34] : I think it would be a very inad- arose or by standing order, which until re-
visable power to grant to federal govern- voked, would enable any minister holding a
ment; there may be particular occasions seat in one house to conduct a particular
when a minister in one house may be asked measure through theother house. We might
to explain a measure in another house, but well leave that, as Sir Samuel Griffith says,
that could be done under a resolution. I to be dealt with by the federal parliament
do not think there is any necessity for ---at any rate the federal parliament, if we
placing such a provision as this upon our have a system of responsible government,
statute-book. The case can, no doubt, be will take care that ministers who possess
met by a standing order. If a minister its confidence will have seats in the parlia-
having a particular knowledge of a subject
ment.
in one house, say in the assembly, were The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
required to explain that measure during its [9:37]: While I admit that there is force
passing through the council, if that was in the argument in favour of introducing
thought to be essentially desirable, it could into the constitution the amnendment sug-
be done by resolution, and the Minister gested by the Attorney-General of Tas-
could be heard at the bar, and could ex- mania, I am inclined to think that, apart
plain the object of the bill in a definite from that, the matter has not obtained the
and detailed manner.
consideration it deserves. As you, sir,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It could be pointed out in an admirable speech a few
provided for by legislation by the federal minutes ago, we are framing a federal con-
parliament !
stitution, and I think we are keeping too
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Or by
close to that model of responsible govern-
standing order passed by both houses. ment in the English Constitution which, I
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [9:36]: venture to think, time will prove is not so
It seems to me that the best course would well adapted to our federal wants and a
bē to strike out the third paragraph alto- federal constitution as most hon, members
gether and leave the whole matter to the seem to think. The amendment suggested
federal parliament. There really seems no by the Attorney-General of Tasmania is, to
necessity to make provision that no min- my mind, so useful that I desire to see it
ister of the state should hold office for embedded in the constitution, and I do not
more than three calender months unless desire to see federal governinent carried
he became a member of one house of par- on for many years without this matter
liament. We may assume that, as we are laving been considered. I make this sug-
798
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
gestion for this all-important reason : We tution elastic, so that there shall be the
have had various discussions, and we are fullest and most ample opportunity for the
going to have many more discussions, as federation to develop a kind of government
to whether the voice of the states should
of its own. I do not believe in adhering
be drowned by the national voice. We . too closely to that form of responsible
are going to have many discussions, and government which, while it has many
the battle is going to rage still further, virtues, has many known defects.
and the battle has to be won over again or The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
lost. We are going to have that in rela- South Wales) (9:41]: There is no doubt
tion to state rights; and what could be that at first sight this proposition appears
more conducive to the settlement of the worthy of consideration ; but I would sub-
question of state rights and the reconcile. mit to hon, members that, after all, it would
. ment of all differences by common sense or be a novelty for which there is not quite
conciliation than to allow the premier,
sufficient warrant.
member of the lower house, to go to the
The Hon. H. DOBSON : It is a harmless
senate, or a minister in the senate to go novelty, and it may be of use !
to the lower house, and, without having The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I will
any power to vote therein, to lay before point out a use which may be made of it,
the house, to which he did not belong, and which, if I were a very ardent ad-
the reasons which he had induced the mirer of the powers of the senate, I should
senate, on the one hand, to insist upon not like to see taken advantage of. Under
its views, or the reasons which had in- this provision a government might leave
duced the house of representatives, on the
itself
unrepresented in the senate. It could
other hand, to insist upon its views? If say, "Oh, we will send the Premier up from
we desire to have a kind of dual govern- time to time to explain our measures.
ment, in which the voice of the nation and The Hon. H. DOBSON : Suppose we had
the voice of the states are, to a certain a Mr. Reid in the senate !
extent, to be heard, and to be sovereign, The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I shall
and not either to be overridden by the be in the other place, if I am anywhere.
other, it appears to me that the suggestion This provision might give an excuse to a
before the Committee is a most admirable government to allow itself to be weakly
one, and I say at once that if a minister represented in the senate. Therefore, from
went down from the senate and pointed my hon. friend's point of view, it would be
out to the lower house the reasons which a dangerous innovation. I also think that
induced the senate to say that a particular on the merits of the case, a government to
measure affected a state right—that it be efficient should be properly represented
affected the rights of the whole state—that in both houses of legislature. If it is so
it affected them disastrously—that would represented, there will be no need for this
do a great deal indeed towards remov- contrivance. The members of the senate
ing any difference that might arise. I, will know in advance by reading Hansard,
therefore, hope that the amendment will the records of the lower house, and other
be carried. I am not inclined to favour public papers, everything that has been said
the suggestion made by the hon. member, and done by ministers and the supporters
Mr. Glynn, for the insertion of the words of a measure in the house of representa-
“ until parliament otherwise provides." tives before it reaches them, and there will
I agree with Sir Samuel Griffith, and also be a representative of the Government
others who desire to make the consti- there to supply any further information
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
799
[17 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
which may be necessary. I think that, on
AYES.
the whole, there is not sufficient warrant
Abbott, Sir Joseph Kingston, C. C.
for this change.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. O'Connor, R. E.
Deakin, A.
Peacock, A. J.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania) Dobson, H.
Quick, Dr. J.
[9:43] : [Inaudible.]
Fraser, S.
Reid, G. H.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS(Victoria)[9.46]: Fysh, Sir P. O. Solomon, V. L.
Henry, J.
There are two questions which have been
Turner, Sir G.
Higgins, H. B.
Wise, B. R.
agitated in connection with this paragraph. Holder, F. W.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
The first is whether the third paragraph of Howe, J. H.
Teller,
the clause shall or shall not be retained. I
Isaacs, I. A.
Barton, E.
NOES.
strongly hope it will be retained. We have,
Briggs, H.
Leake, G.
already, I think, determined that the system
Brown, N. J.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
of responsible government shall be main- Crowder, F. T. Symon, J. H.
tained ; at all events, that it shall begin Douglas, A.
Venn, H. W.
with the life of this commonwealth. It
Glynn, P. M.
Walker, J. T.
Grant, C. H.
would give rise to a very uneasy feeling Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
throughout these colonies if the people Hassell, A. Y. Forrest, Sir J.
thought that principle was in danger in Question so resolved in the affirmative.
the slightest degree. We have already The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : Is
decided that the governor shall exercise it competent to move that "six months" be
his official functions by the advice of the substituted for 6 three months ?"
executive council, and it is understood that The CHAIRMAN: No; it is only com-
that clause shall have the confidence of petent now to add something to the clause.
parliament. There should be no doubt The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
about retaining that part of the clause The period of three months is too short
As to the suggestion of the Tasmanian altogether.
House of Assembly, I think very highly of Clause agreed to.
it. With some of my colleagues, I was a Clause 64. Until the Parliament otherwise
member of a parliamentary procedure com- provides, the number of ministers of state who
mission some years ago, and we reported
may sit in either house shall not exceed seven,
who shall hold such offices, and by such desig.
very strongly in favour of a similar pro-
nation, as the parliament from time to time
posal. The hon. member, Mr. Deakin,prescribes, or, in the absence of provision, as
and others were on that commission; but the governor-general from time to time directs.
I do not consider a constitution is the
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
of Victorice :
place for such a provision. It would be
seven," line 3, insert "of whom two
an experiment. I believe it would be a at least shall be members of the senate."
successful one; but we do not know how The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria)
far experience would justify it; we do not [9:53] was understood to say that the ob-
know how far provisions that might appear ject of the amendment was that at least
correct in the first instance would require two members of the ministry sbould sit in
to be modified. It is one which I think the senate. It seemed to him a very rea-
will come peculiarly within the province sonable proposal, and one which should
of the federal parliament when that body commend itself to the unanimous approval
is constituted.
of the Convention.
Question_That paragraph 3 stand part The Hon. E. BARTON: Why not say that
of the clause-put.. The Committee divided: two should sit in the house of representa-
Ayes, 21 ; noes, 14; majority, 7. tives?
After 66
800 Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australic Bill.
(:
The Hon. Sir W.A. ZEAL: The govern- in the constitution would be and I think
ment was formed in the house of represen- we have gone a good deal in that direction
tatives, and it was preposterous to suppose as it is—to put in a matter of detail which
that that chamber would not look after its ought to be left entirely to the legislature.
own interests.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Wales) [9.55]: If the senate maintains the that the insertion of these words would
position, which I hope it will, as a reason- make it absolutely necessary to have seven
ably strong house, depending as it will on
ministers. It may be that when the
the popular will, being elected by popular commonwealth is formed, five ministers
suffrage, then such a number of members would be found sufficient. Any govern-
will maintain their seats in the senate as
ment which may be formed will have too
its importance demands. If, on the other
substantial an interest to stand well in the
hand, it is found that the government can senate, to treat them badly in the matter
be more conveniently conducted sometimes
of representation. Under any conceivable
with one, and sometimes with three mem-
constitution that this Convention is likely
bers in the senate, the working of the con-
to frame, the senate will be very well able
stitution will provide for that. It is far
to take care of itself, and no government,
better to let things govern themselves in
on the point of one or two, will get into
matters of this sort than to hamper them bad relations with the senate.
with a restriction.
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Will the
The Hon. I. A ISAACS (Victoria)
bon. member agree to the salaries of minis-
[9.56]: I have not the slightest doubt
ters being struck out if he says there
that it will be found absolutely impossible
ought to be five?
in practice to carry on the government
without having some minister in the senate.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Why
not know that they ought to have any
object ?
salary in the constitution bill; I have not
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Because I
sufficient confidence in it yet. This is not
do not think that this is the place to insert
a matter which should be put in the bed-
rock of the constitution. I believe that
such a provision. If you are going to put
the senate will be well able to take care
ä provision of that nature in this cousti-
tution, we do not know where we are
of its own interests, and whether it is or
going to stop. A question, and a very
not I do not think any government will
pertinent question, was put to my hon.
endeavour to govern two houses without
friend by the leader of the Convention: why
being properly represented there.
do you not make some provision as to the
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Why object
number to be put in the house of repre-
to it then?
sentatives ? That is altogether unneces- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There
sary.
is not much virtue in numbers. For in-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: How many stance, one minister, if he is a man of the
members do you say will be in the govern- right stamp, may be a far better representa-
ment-seven?
tive in the senate than two men of inferior
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: No; not to stamp. It is nota question of numbers at all.
exceed seven. It may be five or it may be My hon. friend will admit that it is al-
four. I think the hon. gentleman will together a question of the ability and tact
see that, to put a provision of this nature of the gentleman who happens to be there.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
801
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Till.
One good minister, one able man who is The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Not for
in sympathy with the senate, will give long !
them infinitely more satisfaction than, per- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
haps, two who would fail in the requisite At any rate the provision was made in the
qualifications. Take my hon. friend him- West Australian constitution and it has
self. If he were sent up to represent a been found to work extremely well. No
governnient in the senate, you could not one, I think, can reasonably object to the
find another like him to begin with. He provision that at least one minister should
is so good that no one would ever think have a place in the senate. I place im-
of anyone else after him. So, under the portance upon this from the point of view
constitution, inasmuch as the representa- I have just mentioned—that is the point
tion would depend more on the ability and of emoluments. It would be very con-
fitness of the individual than on the num- venient, perhaps, for a prime minister who
ber of the individuals, I think we had would hold office during the pleasure of
better leave this provision as it is.
the lower house to give all the positions of
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST emolument to persons in the lower house.
(Western Australia) [9:59]: I agree with That fact alone should induce us to insert
my, hon. friend, Sir William Zeal, in a provision of the kind proposed.
thinking that some provision should be The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania)
made for the representation of the min- .[10.2] was understood to say that the
istry in the senate. In our constitution, clause provided thatuntil otherwise ordered
while there is no limit to the number there should be seven ministers, and it
of ministers, still it is provided that one was evident that seven minister's could
at least shall be a member of the Legisla- not carry on the federal parliament. There
tive Council. That provision, I think, must be more. He thought that two
has worked well. It prevents a govern-
members out of seven was only a fair pro-
ment from giving all the offices of profit portion for the upper house. It should
to the members of one house, as it is be compulsory that the ministry of the
quite easy for them to do, and to appoint day should be represented in the senate
ministers without portfolios in the upper
as well as in the house of represen-
house without any emolument. That is a
tatives.
thing which might occur. And seeing that
The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania)
it is generally agreed that there must be [10:4]: I am very sorry to hear that the
one minister or more in the upper house, hon. member, Sir William Zeal, is so de-
I see no reason why we should not insert termined upon this point that he intends
a definite provision. I would be satisfied to call for a division. Personally, I would
if there were one member rather than much rather be found voting with the
two.
hon. gentleman than voting against him.
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: We must I cannot help, however, concurring in the
have one!
views expressed by the Attorney-General
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: of Victoria that we are displaying a ten-
Unless
make provision for it, it will be dency to put too much detail in the con-
competent to appoint ministers without stitution bill. We know that there are a
portfolio and salary to represent the go- number of matters which must be worked
vernment in the upper house. I do not out and decided by the parliament when
know that they could not carry on business it is elected, and afterwards by the will
without ministers there at all.
of those whom parliament represents.
we
1
802 Commonwealth of [17 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
As a matter of practical politics, I quite
AYES.
agree with the idea that no ministry Briggs, H.
Hassell, A. Y.
who hoped to secure the confidence of
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G
Dobson, H.
Lewis, N. E.
the house of representatives and of the
Douglas, A.
Venn, H. W.
senate would be so misguided and so in- Forrest, Sir J.
Walker, J. T.
sensible to the necessities of the occasion Fraser, S.
Teller,
as not to provide for due representation in Grant, C. H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
the second chamber. I think these views
Nors.
are fairly warranted by what we see
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
Barton, E.
Kingston, C. C.
occurring from day to day in our com-
Brown, N. J.
Leake, G.
paratively small local legislatures. That
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Quick, Dr. J.
being so, it does seem to me that it would Deakin, A.
Reid, G. H.
be unwisé to encumber this Conven-
Glynn, P. M.
Solomon, V. L.
very
Hackett, J. W. Turner, Sir G.
tion with the proposed provision. I am
Higgins, H. B.
Wise, B. R.
extremely sorry that I am obliged to differ Holder, F. W.
Teller,
from those who take the opposite view,
Howe, J, H,
O'Connor, R. E.
but I would advise members of the Con- Question so resolved in the negative.
vention to avoid on this and other occa- The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
sions which will arise in the future burden-
[10.10]: I desire to move an amendment
ing this Convention with what may be in this clause with reference to ministers
regarded as unnecessary provisions. in the senate. I was struck with the argu-
The Hon. C. H. GRANT (Tasmania) ment that the number of ministers might
[106]: It seems to me that the senate has
not be seven, or in other words, that in
very few friends in this Convention, and the inception of the commonwealth five
that probably arises from the small num- ministers would be quite, or more than,
ber of members of the upper houses of the sufficient to carry on the business. But
various colonies who are here as compared supposing the number of ministers is seven,
with the number of members of the lower I am firmly of opinion that two of thena
houses. The privileges of the senate appear might be in the senate, and it might be pro-
to have received very small consideration;
vided in the constitution that, supposing
but in this convention, as you, Mr. Chair-
the number of ministers is five, one only
man, so ably pointed out in your interest-
out of those five should be in the senate.
ing and instructive speech, it is necessary
The amendment I desire to more is to
the effect that the number of ministers
to preserve the power and prestige of the
senate in a marked degree. In every clause
shall not exceed seven, and while there
of the bill in which the powers or position
are only five, one of them should be in the
of the senate are mentioned, I think it
senate; but when there are more than five
should receive special consideration, with
ministers, two of them shall be in the
a view to the preservation of its integrity in order ?
senate. I ask if that amendment will be
and influence. I hope, therefore, that these
The CHAIRMAN: I do not think the hon.
words will be inserted with the object I
member could move the latter part of it;
have stated,
but he could move the other part of it.
Question-That the words proposed to
The amendment negatived was two of
be inserted, "of whom two at least shall
whom at least shall be in the senate.'
be members of the senate” be so inserted
The Hon. H. DOBSON : One of the
put. The Committee divided :
great arguments which I think gained
Ayes, 13; noes, 19; majority, 6. some votes was supposing there were only
[The Fon. N. J. Brown.
Commonwealth of
803
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
-five ministers you certainly could not have asking us to give to them, they give us
two out of the five in the senate, and I do nothing in return. I ask that my amend-
not ask for that. Upon the argument of ment be put, because it differs from the
the Prime Minister of this colony the last amendment, and may possibly gain a
matter has been decided
few votes, and even win the day. Imove :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Leave it to That the following words be inserted after the
the federal parliament!
word "seven," line3:"of whom one shall be in
The Hon. H. DOBSON: No. Speaker
the senate when there are five ministers; and two
shall be in the senate when there are more than
after speaker has admitted that the senate
five ministers."
should be a strong feature of the common- The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: I will
wealth, but I think we have neglected the
take your ruling, Mr. Chairman, as to
senate in every possible way.
The hon.
whether the latter part of the amendment
member, Mr. Higgins, has told us we shall is in order, the Committee having already
not have a federal constitution, so to speak, decided that there shall not be two minis-
but simply a constitution in which all the
ters in the senate. They negatived the
financial powers are given to the lower
proposal that there should be two minis-
house, and he is perfectly right, and when
ters in the senate, and the hon. member
we desire to hare one minister in the
.cannot evade that decision by submitting
senate to uphold the state rights, and to
a proposal contrary to it, although he has
be in touch with the cabinet, and so be in added another provision.
touch with the people--and recollect the The Hon. H. DOBSON : The hon. mem-
senate is a people's house–I cannot under-
ber cannot separate my amendment !
stand the object of taking away the power The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : One
of the senate in every possible respect. part of the hon. member's amendment may
No one is better pleased than I am that
be in order, while another part is out of
Queensland is going to join the Convention, order. I submit that that part which is
because now if a man suggests anything
out of order cannot be put from the Chair.
upon the more conservative side of this
The CHAIRMAN: I think that the amend-
question than the advanced democracy of
ment is substantially different from the
our large colonies, he is not listened to,
amendment which the Committee has
and is laughed at—is told that he must
negatived. The amendment which was
give in, and that he is lowering federation,
negatived provided that in any event there
I believe that we are making a great mis-
should be at least two ministers in the
take. We are making our constitution
senate. This amendment says that there
lop-sided, we are forgetting that the senate
shall be one minister in the senate when
springs from the people, and that when
there are five ministers, and two when
the people speak from two chambers, and
there are more than five ministers.
one voice is different from the other, that
is the time when great consideration is re.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The clause
quired. I desire that the dignity and
provided for seven ministers when the first
amendment was put !
power of the senate should be upheld. If
Ion, members will now allow a ministerial
The CHAIRMAN : It said “not exceeding
senator to go down to the lower house
seven"; so that there might be only two.
and explain the policy of the states there,
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New
if they will not provide that a min- South Wales) [10:19]: Well, I submit that
ister shall sit in the senate, they will the Committee should reject the amend-
detract from the dignity and power of the ment. It is an attempt to unnecessarily
senate. While hon. members opposite are load the constitution. If the Ministry of
804
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.
the day desire to exercise power and influ- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
ence in the senate, they ought to have (Western Australia) (10-25]: I desire to
liberty to send three ministers there if .call the attention of the hon. and learned
they think proper
member, Mr. Barton, to the use in this
The Hon. H. DOBSON : So they could !
and other clauses of the terms “governor-
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: If general in council,” and “ governor-gene-
the hon. member limits them to one, they ral.” It seems to me that it will cause less
will not be able to send three. I do not
confusion if the term "governor-general'
think that this provision should be em-
is adopted throughout.
bodied in the constitution. The hon, mem-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Does the right
ber talks about belittling the senate; but hon. gentleman want to know why the
I think he belittles it by his assertion that words “in council” are sometimes used
the members of the Convention desire to and sometimes omitted ?
make the senate weak and incapable of The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
acting—against whom? Against the people. Yes. The practice has now become almost
But will not the senate be there to act for general in acts of parliament to avoid the
the people? When the hon. member says use of the words “in council,” and to use
that we desire to make the senate weak, only the expression “the governor.” The
he is making an assertion which is not in term "governor" constitutionally is well
accordance with--I should be out of order known, and is understood to mean the
if I said fact—but, at all events, contrary governor acting with the advice of his
to the ideas of the Committee. We desire responsible ministers. If you use the
to see the senate strong, and a resting words "in council," a doubt arises as to
place for members, like my right hon. whether the governor is expected to act on
friend, Sir John Forrest.
his own responsibility or with the advice of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Good old his ministers. In the Constitution Act of
English oak!
Western Australia there is some confusion
Question—That the words (proposed by owing to the use of the terms “governor
Hon. H. Dobson) be inserted-put. in council ” and “ governor.” The term
Ayes, 12 ; noes, 20; majority, 8. governor-general” will be thoroughly
AYES.
understood, and I think there is no neces-
Briggs, H.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
sity to add the words "in council.” In
Crowder, F. T. Venn, H. W.
clause 63 it is provided that the appoint-
Douglas, A.
Walker, J. T.
Forrest, Sir J.
Zeal, Sir IV. A.
ment of officers to administer the depart-
Fraser, S.
ments shall be made by the governor-
Grant, C. H.
Teller,
general in council," while in clause 64
Hassell, A. Y.
Dobson, H.
Nors.
the designations of ministers holding dif-
Abbott, Sir Joseph Kingston, C. C.
ferent offices is to be fixed by the par-
Barton, E.
Leake, G.
liament or by the governor-general.” If
Brown, N. J.
O'Connor, R. E.
it were a matter of prerogative I do not
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Peacock, A. J.
Deakin, A.
Quick, Dr. J.
suppose it would be left to the parlia-
Glynn, P. M.
Reid, G. H.
ment; as it is not a matter of preroga-
Hackett, J. W. Solomon, V. L.
tive, I expect the governor-general in
Higgins, H. B.
Turner, Sir G.
council is meant. My own experience
Holder, F. W.
Howe, J. H.
Teller,
leads me to the conclusion that the words
Isaacs, I. A.
Wise, B. R.
“in council ” should rot be used if they
Question so resolved in the negative. can be avoided.
I
[The Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott.
Cominonwealth of
805
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON [10:29]: The that the right distinction has been used
distinction is this: Where the act is done throughout the bill.
throughout the bill. In defining those
by the governor-general or by the authority executive acts which are done as mere acts
of the Crown it is done upon prerogative. of prerogative and those which are done
When the act is not a prerogative act, in the ordinary execution or administra-
when it is an administrative or executive tion of government apart from the pre-
act, then the term “in council" is used. rogative.
It is a fallacy to suppose that any dis- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
tinct act is done by the governor of the [1032]: If I caught the question of the
colony, even upon prerogative, with the right hon. member, Sir John Forrest,
advice of ministers. One might say more aright, he drew a distinction between
than that.
clause 63 and clause 64. He has not quite
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
gathered the sense of these two clauses.
Where is the prerogative in the last line There is no discrepancy whatever between
of clause 64?
the two. In clause 63 the appointment of
The Hon. E. BARTON: I was endea- ministers is by the governor-general. The
vouring to explain a matter to the bon. reference to the governor-general in coun-
member, which it is quite evident from his cil is not to the appointment of ministers,
question is not generally understood. The but to the establishment of departments
reason of the difference in this bill is of state. It means that the governor
founded on that question. I am not un- appoints his ministers by virtue of the
mindful that there is a difference in clause
prerogative, but that when he comes to
63. In that very clause the term "gover- establishing a department, he acts by the
is used in one place, and the term advice of his ministers. But, in clause 64,.
"governor-general in council" in another, the expression “governor-general” is used
for this reason: that the appointment of because it would be impossible to put in
ministers is a prerogative act, but the mere the expression “governor-general in coun-
establishing of a department of state is
cil” there, for this reason: it says the
not an act of prerogative, but an execu-
ministers
tive act which generally requires the antho- shall hold such offices and by such designation
rity of a statute, and rests on the autho- as the parliament from time to time prescribes,
or, in the absence of provision, as the governor-
rity of a statute in this case. That is
general from time to time directs.
the reason of the difference in this case,
and the hon. member will find it running
Ministers are in the first instance to be
right through the bill. I hope there will
appointed before there is a council. There
be no debate on questions of that kind in
is not to be a parliament until there is a
this Committee. The whole matter was
ministry, and the parliament has to be
considered at very great length in Ade-
summoned by the governor-general.
laide by the Constitutional Committee. It The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
was threshed out in a long debate there. (Western Australia) [10:33]: As to the
There was, again, in Adelaide, in Com- unreasonable nature of my question, I may
mittee of the Whole, as niy right hon.
inform the hon. member, Mr. Barton,
friend, Mr. Reid, will recollect, a long and
that in our constitution the designation of
keen debate on the subject, and I think we
ministers is left to the Governor-in-Council,
all came to an understanding about it. I
not to the Governor.
think the lion. member will be assured The Hon. E. BARTON: I did not say the
by any legal member of the Convention hon, member was unreasonable in asking
nor
3 K
806
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[17 SEPT., 1897.]
t
on
the question ; I said it was rather unreason- Clause 69. On the establishinent of the
able for him to ask the question and not
commonwealth the control of the following
departments of the public service in each state
allow me to answer it.
shall become transferred to the executive
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: government of the commonwealth, that is to 5
I only wish to place my question before
say-
Customs and excise :
the hon. and learned member, and if I did
Posts and telegraphs :
not do it quite in the way he desired, I am Military and naval defence :
very sorry.
Ocean beacons and buoys, and ocean light-
houses and lightships :
10
The Hon. E. BARTON: Iam quite satisfied.
Quarantine.
Clause agreed to.
The obligations of each state in respect of
the departments transferred shall thereupon
Clause 65. Until the parliament otherwise pro- be assumed by the commonwealth.
vides, there shall be payable to the Queen, out
of the consolidated revenue fund of the common-
The CHAIRMAN : In connection with this
wealth, for the salaries of such officers, the sum
clause several legislatures have suggested
of twelve thousand pounds a year.
the omission of the word
» in line 1.
The CHAIRMAN : It is proposed by the The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Assembly and Council of South Australia Wales) [10.36]: I understand there are
and by the Council of Tasmania that we one or two matters in this clause which
should omit the word “twelve" before the may cause debate, and which I do not
word “thousand” with the view to insert
wish to take at this late hour of the even-
other words.
ing; and as I understand the hon. mem-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : May I ask
ber, Mr. Higgins, has something to say
you, sir, to divide the question, because
about it which may give rise to some dis-
some hon. members may wish to see the
cussion, I think I shall be making a fair
words s twelve thousand" stand, who
concession to that hon. gentleman by post-
poning it.
I therefore move :
would be quite willing to insert the words
That the consideration of clause 69 be post-
"a sum not exceeding."
poned.
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member may Motion agreed to; clause postponed.
move to strike out the words.
Clause 70. All powers and functions which
The Hon. E. BARTON: As it is to be
are at the date of the establishment of the
done until parliament otherwise provides, commonwealth vested in the governor of a
if the hon. member is very anxious about
colony with or without the advice of his ex-
it I will accept the insertion of the words
ecutive council, or in any officer or authority 5
in a colony, shall, so far as the same continue
a sum not exceeding."
in existence and need to be exercised in rela-
Amendment (Dr. COCKBURN) agreed to : tion to the government of the commonwealth
That the words “the sum of,“ line 4, be
with respect to any matters which, under this
omitted with the view to the insertion in their
constitution, pass to the executive govern- 10
place of the words “a sum not exceeding."
ment of the commonwealth, vest in the go-
vernor-general, with the advice of the federal
Suggested amendment by the Legisla- executive council, or in the officer or autho-
tive Council of Tasmania—That the word rity exercising similar powers or functions in,
“twelve" be omitted-negatived.
or under, the executive government of the 15
commonwealth.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
Clauses 66 (Appointment of civil ser- South Wales) (10-38]: would point out
vants), 67 (Authority of executive), and that in reference to this clause the powers:
68 (Command of military and naval forces) and functions to be transferred are de-
agreed to.
scribed in the first part as the powers, and
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
807
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
as
or
1
functions vested in the governor of the
COMMUNICATION FROM QUEENSLAND.
colony with or without the advice of the The PRESIDENT informed the Conven-
executive council ; so that to continue that tion that he had received from the Act-
state of things, it will be necessary after ing-Premier of Queensland a letter in pre-
the words “vest in the governor-general, cisely the same terms as were employed
with," to use similar words with or with- in the telegram which had already been
out the advice of the executive council," dealt with by the Convention on Friday.
or else we shall change the prerogative.
The telegram had been recorded upon
the
The Hon. E. BARTON : And insert minutes of the Convention, and he pre-
the case requires " !
sumed that it was the desire of hon. mem-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes, bers that the letter should be dealt with
as the case requires.” I move :
in a way similar to that in which the
That after the words " vest in the governor-
telegram on the same subject had been
general, with," lines 11 and 12, the words “
dealt with.
without" be inserted.
Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment (The Right Hon. G. H.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL-
REID) agreed to:
That after the words “federal executive coun-
In Committee (consideration resumed from
cil," lines 12 and 13, the words " as the case re-
17th September, vide page 807):
quires” be inserted.
Clause 56 (Recommendation of money votes).
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I move: bly of New South Wales :
That the Chairman leave the chair, report Insert new clause to follow clause 56 :
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
57. (a) If either house of parliament shall, in
HON. MEMBERS: No, no! Go on!
two consecutive sessions of the same parliament,
with an interval of at least six weeks between
The Hon. E. BARTON: I should like
pass and transmit to the other house for its con.
to know what is the reason for this newly
currence therein any proposed law which such
discovered energy on the part of the hon. other house fails to pass without amendinent,
member, Mr. Wise? We shall have an within thirty days after receiving the same, in
arduous sitting on Monday.
the second session, or within such period passes,
with any amendment not agreed to by the house
The CHAIRMAN : I may point out that
transmitting the proposed law, the provisions of
if we go on we shall have to deal with the
the following sections of this part shall apply.
referendum.
(6) The proposed law passed and transmitted
The Hon. E.BARTON: The next clauses in the second session may include any amendment :
are those dealing with deadlocks. I think
agreed to by both houses in the first session.
I shall have the concurrence of the Com-
The house in which the proposed law origin-
ated may pass a resolution that, in its opinion,
mittee in taking those on Monday morning. the proposed law is of an urgent nature, and
Motion agreed to, progress reported. may transmit the resolution and the proposed
Convention adjourned 10:40 p.m.
law with any amendments agreed to by both
houses up to the time of transmission to the
other house, with a request for further con-
sideration.
MONDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER, 1897. If within thirty days of the transmission of
the proposed law as last aforesaid, or if the
session shall end before the expiration of such
Communication from Queensland-Commonwealth of
period, then within thirty days of the com-
mencement of the next session of the same par-
liament, the other house shall not pass the pro-
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30 posed law without amendment, or without such
amendment as the house transmitting the same
Australia Bill-Return.
an,
808
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
,
agrees to, the house in which the proposed law
originated may resolve that the same be referred
to the direct determination of the people.
If such last-mentioned resolution is passed, a
vote of the electors of the commonwealth as to
whether the proposed law, as last transmitted
as aforesaid, shall or shall not become law shall
be taken, unless in the meantime the house to
which it has been transmitted has passed the
same.
Such vote shall be taken in each .state sepa-
rately, and if the proposed law is affirmed by a
majority of the population of the commonwealth,
it shall be presented to the governor-general for
the royal assent, as if it had been duly passed
by both houses of parliament, and on receiving
the royal assent it shall become law. If not
affirmed as aforesaid the proposed law shall not
become law, and shall not be again proposed for
a-period of at least three years.
Upon which the following amendment by
Mr. Symon had been agreed to :-
That after the word “If," in the proposed
new clause, the following new words be in-
serted :-"the senate reject or fail to pass any
proposed law which has passed the house of
representatives, or pass the same with amend-
ments with which the house of representatives
will not agree, and if the governor-general should
dissolve the house of representatives, and if,
within six months after the said dissolution the
house of representatives by an absolute majority
again pass the said proposed law in the same, or
substantially the same, form as before, and with
substantially the same objects, and the senate
again reject or fail to pass the said proposed law,
or pass the same with amendments with which
the house of representatives will not agree, the
governor-general may dissolve the senate.”
Upon which Mr. Lyne had moved :
To add to the words inserted “If after a dis-
solution of both houses of the federal parliament
as above provided the subject matter of the con-
tention that led to such dual dissolution is again
passed by the house of representatives and again
rejected by the senate such measure shall be re-
ferred to the electors of the commonwealth by
means of a national referendum, and if resolved
in the affirmative shall become law."
And upon which the Right Hon. Sir George
Turner had moved :
To leave out the initial word “If,” with a
view to insert "Provided that in lieu of dis-
solving the house of representatives the proposed
law may be referred to the direct determination
of the people as hereinafter provided."
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I pre-
sume that if the word "If” be omitted, my
amendment will be proposed, and it will
be open to the hon. and learned member,
Mr. Wise, to move his amendment upon
mine ?
The CHAIRMAN : If the words which the
right hon. gentleman proposes to insert are
not inserted, the hon, and learned mem-
ber, Mr. Wise, can move that other words
be inserted.
Mr. SYMON : I presume that the first
amendment to be considered will be the
amendment of the right hon, member, Sir
George Turner!
The CHAIRMAN : Yes.
Mr. McMILLAN : I thought we had
arrived at an understanding that the whole
question involved in the vote taken the
other afternoon should be reconsidered,
and that it would not be out of order on
the part of hon. members to discuss amend-
ments which had previously been dealt
with.
The CHAIRMAN : If a motion be sub-
mitted to rescind the previous decision of
the Committee, the whole question can
then be re-discussed.
Mr. MCMILLAN: But that has not been
done!
The Hon. E. BARTON : I would suggest
to members of the Convention whether it
would not be well, and whether it would
not be the way most likely to lead to an intel-
ligent solution of the question if the power
given by the Convention on Friday were
taken advantage of, and if the whole ground
were cleared by rescinding the decision
already arrived at? Only one proposal
has been carried, and the rescission of that
would not necessarily be an intimation
that it would be rejected finally when the
whole ground had been cleared for redis-
cussion. In pursuance of the lead given
by the Convention, I think it would be
advisable to first clear the whole ground
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 809
by rescinding the determination upon Mr. The Hon. Dr. COCKBURX: I would
sug-
Symon's amendment, and starting afresh, gest that we should proceed to consider
not necessarily with a view to rejecting the proposals in regard to the referendum,
my hon. friend's proposal in the end ; but because it is quite possible that the deci-
in order that everything may be open to sion of the Convention will lessen the im-
discussion.
portance of the questions in reference to
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: The
dissolution. The questions as to the two
proper way to get rid of the amendment
forms of dissolution may come to be of
which has been agreed to is to move that
relatively less importance if this course be
it be rescinded.
taken. The immediate rescission of the
determination of Friday would bring us
The Hon. E. BARTON:- Other amend-
face to face with the difficulty which ap-
ments which have appeared on the notice-
paper can be withdrawn. Nothing will
peared so overpowering on Friday morn-
ing. If, on the other hand, the question
require a motion except the rescission of
the referendum be dealt with, we may find
the amendment carried at the instance of
my hon. friend, Mr. Symon.
that the question of dissolution does not
present one-half of the difficulties which
The CHAIRMAN : If the amendment car-
are feared.
ried on Friday be rescinded, then the other
Mr. McMILLAN: I think the hon, and
motions will fall to the ground, because
learned member has just suggested the
they are simply in the nature of adding
most common-sense way of dealing with
words to the words of that amendment.
this matter. I think we had better pro-
If that amendment be rescinded, there-
ceed to consider the question of referendum.
fore, there will be nothing to which to add
The whole matter can be discussed again at
any words in the way proposed.
another sitting of the Convention; but I
Mr. SYMON : In the event to which you
think it would be better to leave the work
refer, Mr. Chairman, I take it that the
which has been done up to a certain stage.
whole subject will be brought on, and it
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I do
will be possible for the Committee to dis-
not agree with some of the remarks of
cuss, among other things, the amendments
the hon. member, Mr. McMillan. We
which have been already proposed. The
must finally settle this question. There
question is, whether it would tend to facili-
one other important question left open in
tate and shorten the proceedings to have
regard to which we cannot help ourselves
us put in the position in which we started
-I refer to the financial question. But
on Friday morning, with all the other
with regard to this particular question, it
amendments to come on later, and to be
should be settled to-day one way or the other.
rediscussed. I think it would be better
I do not think we ought to rescind what
to reopen the whole ground, if any motion
we have done. We have already provided
could be made with that effect.
for an alternative dissolution, and I believe
The CHAIRMAN : The position in the
that many bon. members who voted for
event of a motion to rescind the resolution
that do not desire to altogether rescind it,
already arrived at being carried would be
but they are prepared to give an alter-
that the whole question could be recon- native and a double dissolution, throwing
sidered.
the onus on the government of the day of
Mr. SYMON : My amendment and the
selecting which. We have determined that
other amendments ?
we will have the alternative dissolution ;
The CHAIRMAN: Yes.
let us take a vote and see whether we are
.
810
Australice Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
prepared to throw on the government of method to get rid of the alternative disso-
the day the onus of following that up by lution, because I have the strongest pos-
having a double dissolution. . When we sible objection to it?
have decided that, we shall have the other The Hon. E. BARTON: The successive
question still open-namely, are we pre- dissolution !
pared to go a step further, and have a The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Yes. I
referendum if the double dissolution fails; do not at all object to there being power
and, if so, what sort of referendum ? Then in the governor-general in council to dis-
we will be in this position: We will have solve both houses or either house, and that
the alternative dissolution, and the govern- I think would be the best way to get rid
ment of the day will decide whether they of this difficulty. I strongly object to a
will take that or the double dissolution. It successive dissolution. I do not object to
seems to me that that is the course which a simultaneous dissolution, or to a disso-
is most likely to meet with the approval lution of one house or the ether, in the
of hon, members.
discretion of the executive power; but I
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New fancy that unless we have an opportunity
South Wales): Do I understand the Right of rediscussing and reconsidering the
Hon. Sir George Turner, by. what he says,
amendment of the hon. and learned mem-
to mean that he is prepared to allow ber, Mr. Symon, we shall get into a false
the amendment of the hon. member, Mr. position. If the amendment of my right
Symon, to stand—as to the alternative hon. friend, Sir George Turner, as pro-
dissolution of both houses ?
posed to be amended, will get rid of that
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I am
objection, I do not ask that the amend-
prepared to proceed further on that, and ment of the hon. and learned member,
to give the government of the day the Mr. Symon, be rescinded. I believe that
option of dissolution of both houses at the if we were to adopt the suggestion made
one time!
by the 'hon. and learned member, Mr.
The Hon. E. BARTON : The alternative
Barton, we would deal with this difficulty
in a much more satisfactory way; but at
power of double dissolution !
the same time I admit that if
any
member
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Yes;
of the Convention has carried a proposi-
the alternative power of double dissolu-
tion, he will not lightly consent to its
tion, and throwing the onus on the govern-
rescission. I am strongly of opinion that
ment of the day !
the suggestion made by the hon. and
The Hon. E. BARTON : And in the other
learned member, is in our own interests,
case the power of dual referendum !
whatever our opinions may be one way or
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am other on the question at issue.
looking at the right hon. gentleman's The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Whatever we
amendment
may do now will not be absolutely final, and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That, therefore, if we adopt this course, it will
of course, is to be amended. The hon. and
not prevent the consideration of the amend-
learned member, Mr. Wise, made a sugges- ment proposed by the Right Hon. Sir
tion which we are perfectly prepared to George Turner.
accept!
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: We all
The Kight Hon. G. H. REID: Do I have a common interest in doing whatever
understand that on the matter now before is best, and, unless the suggestion of the
the Chair it will be possible by some hon, and learned member, Mr. Barton, is
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
811
[20 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
case.
adopted, I fear that we will get ourselves made so far, is that I should like to see
into a position which will be more unsatis- some concrete system drawn up, which I
factory than now.
personally have not been able to frame,
The Hon. E. BARTON: Whatever we do by which there should be an alternative
in Committee may be reconsidered on the given to the executive to dissolve either
recommittal of the bill !
the senate or the house of representatives
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No doubt; according to the peculiar conditions of the
but that will not take place until we meet
again. If what I suggest will be open to
An HON. MEMBER :
us on this amendment, I am satisfied.
Mr. MOMILLAN: No. I would safe-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON (Tas- guard that. I would desire to safeguard
mania): I hope that the course suggested the manner in which it would be adopted
by the Right Hon. Sir George Turner will by some proposal like this; if I am in
be adopted. It is quite true, as he has said, order now in speaking to the question.
that some of those who voted for this first The CHAIRMAN: I do not think as a
amendment did so in order to guard them- matter of fact there is anything before the
selves against what possibly might, or chair at the present time.
might not, be carried afterwards. Several Mr. MCMILLAN: Then I shall go on
of those who voted for that amendment as if the whole matter were before the
will be disposed, for example, to grant the
chair.
dual referendum. If we proceed with the
The CHAIRMAN : There is an amend-
various amendments, and dispose of them, ment before the chair, namely, to leave
and if it be found necessary to consider the out the word - if."
question of rescinding the amendment of The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That gives
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, a wide range !
we shall then be in a much better position Mr. McMILLAN : It would require à
to consider it, and to give a conscientious considerable memory to keep in one's head
and thoroughly just vote upon it, than we all the amendments that have been pro-
can be in until we know what is to be done posed on this matter. I would say at the
with the subject.
outset that I am absolutely opposed to a
Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales) simultaneous dissolution of both houses. I
[10:46]: I should like to say a word or hold that, at the present moment, we are
two in regard to difficulties which it strikes more in what you might call the bi-cameral
me must meet some hon. gentlemen who stage of this discussion than in the stage
voted with the majority the other day? in which we deal with the senate as repre-
My doing so may clear the ground a little. sentative of the states. When we come
I feel that one of the great objections to a to the question of a dual or a national re-
simultaneous dissolution is that it ignores ferendum, then we shall deal more directly
all the facts and conditions of the case- with the peculiar character of the senate
that it may be very inconvenient at cer- as representing state rights and state in-
tain times to have a simultaneous dissolu- terests ; but, although I know I am more
tion. You might have this condition of or less on the unpopular side in the vote
affairs : That one house had come fresh that I have given
from the country, and it would not be An Hon. MEMBER : Not at all!
necessary to send the house back, or vice Mr. McMILLAN: I have a strong de-
versa.
One of my reasons for voting for, sire, for the present, to sustain in its integ-
and being tenacious to keep the proposal rity the bi-cameral system of government.
812
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Whatever evolution the future may bring of a great states chamber, we ought to
forth, I am perfectly certain that, with deal fairly with it, and if we of the larger
a federated Australia, with a compli- states have found it necessary to concede,
cated system of government such as we so to speak, equal representation of the
are instituting, no people would be safe states, then, although we ought to see that
with only one house of representatives; the senate should not be unreasonably ob-
and, although I do not want to make one structive of the will of the people, we
jarring note in the harmony that has ex- ought not to draw a line in any part of
isted in this Convention up to the present, this machinery which would render it ab-
on the whole, I cannot help thinking that solutely impotent. I cannot help feeling
the atmosphere we have been breathing that a great deal of the trouble which has
during the last few days has not been of arisen in this debate has arisen out of the
that tranquil temperature which has gener- modus operandi adopted in the amend-
ally pervaded our proceedings, and which ment of the hon. member, Mr. Symon, by
ought to pervade the deliberations of an which, under all circumstances, the house of
assembly like this.
representatives must be subject to a pena)
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The rea- dissolution. Hon. members, who are, per:
son is that this is not the complimentary haps, overweighted by previous antagonisms
stage of the business !
with the upper houses of their own colonies
Mr. McMILLAN: I quite allow that say, "Why should one house be penalised
we have now come to a stage at which we as against the other ?" And it seems to me
are practically reviewing certain of our that there is an idea that by thus penal-
work, and that probably it would have ising the house of representatives, you
been better if the question of equal repre- cast a slur upon this body, and give the
sentation had been dealt with in conjunc- senate a superior position. I do not care
tion with the question of deadlocks. At a jot about the peculiar relative positions
the same time, I feel that it is a difficulty of these two houses in this case. Isimply re-
that we are in that we are viewing this cognise that the essential root of bi-cameral
question now more as a question of one governmentisthat you must have check and
house, which is looked upon as a house of criticism, and, if that is worth anything,
conservative principles, as against another you must at times come to severely strained
house which is looked upon as the popular relations. A deadlock in itself is not an
branch of the legislature. I cannot help absolute disadvantage; a permanent and
feeling that the atmosphere of our politics, unalterable deadlock is a calamity. The
both in Victoria and in New South Wales, principle which we are going on is this :
during the last few years, has been so that if you have no safety-valve and no
charged with electricity in connection with solution there is no alternative but revolu-
this matter that it is very difficult for us, tion. In my election address, and in the
especially as practical politicians of the speeches which I delivered throughout the
day, to get rid of influences which may country before I had the honor to become
affect our judgment. At the same time, I a member of the Convention, I said that
hold that we should, as far as possible, get it would be far better for the smaller states
rid of all preconceived views in dealing to obtain only proportional representation
with this new machinery that we are going in the senate than that after having got
to erect. If we desire to put into the con- equal representation it should be rendered
stitution a senate which may be viewed in absolutely useless. I still hold to that
the double light of a second chamber, and position. I am willing to go as far as
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
813
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
you could
possible in order to create some check, to lock In nine cases out of ten the second
obtain some solution of this difficulty ; but chambersays to the lower chamber, “We do
I should like to know how
pre-
not believe that you represent the opinions
serve the principle of bi-cameral govern- of the people.” And when does that occur?
ment by having a dual dissolution at the It occurs either in the third year of the
same time? I know that I am dealing life of the lower house, or at any rate
with questions which are perhaps not dealt when that house is practically moribund.
with outside among certain political forces How absurd then would it be to say, when
in that calm and considerate manner the lower house was within three or four
which should permeate our feelings in a months of expiring by effluxion of time,
Convention such as this. I know that and the upper house simply wanted to be
the moment I say that the senate may sure of the opinion of the country, and was
be composed of more stable elements willing the moment it found out what that
than the house of representatives, that it opinion was to give way, to dissolve both
may have embodied in it more or less the houses.
conservative instincts of the constitution, The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We
I raise an outcry on the part of many who provide for an interval of six months !
think that there ought to be no bi-cameral Mr. McMILLAN: I am now speaking
government at all. But I want to point with a view to the reconsideration of the
this out: If you have a dual dissolution whole position. So far as I am concerned,
of the houses under certain conditions it with what judgment I have now, I should
will not be a question of state rights that not under any circumstances agree to a
will arise. You may find the representá- dual concurrent dissolution. Let us con-
tives of the different colonies in the senate sider the history of this matter in its
divided upon different questions, and if evolutionary character. In the year 1891,
the two houses go simultaneously to the when the last Convention met, there was
country the question at issue may not be no question of the dissolution of the senate.
the subject-matter of the dispute, but the It was only in the way
mild
sug-
question of one house against the other. I gestion that the matter came up at the
do not for a moment say that there will be last meeting of this Convention. I am
any strict analogy between the legislative quite willing to allow that the idea has
councils of these colonies and the senate of worked rapidly forward from that time
united Australia ; but in certain phases of till now, but that is all the more reason
their political life there will be considerable why we should be very careful before we
analogy. We have known ourselves that commit ourselves to any concrete scheme.
when we have had a dissolution to ob- Suppose, for example, that the bill of 1891
tain consideration of some matter of state had passed or that the bill as it was framed
policy this matter has been absolutely
in Adelaide had become the law of feder-
swept away in the heated passions of class ated Australia, and suppose any dispute
against class, and house against house. Let occurred between the two houses, what
us look at the practical aspect of the case.
would have been the result? As a last
When is it that the senate, the revising resort the house of representatives would
and checking chamber, will not yield to the probably have gone to the country to try
overtures of the other chamber, and after
and show the recalcitrant senate that it
every possible means of arriving at a settle- had really the will of the people at its back.
ment by conference and compromise has What does this modest proposal do? It
failed? It is only then that you have a dead- simply proposes to do what you want-it
of a very
814
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
provides you a safety-valve. It proposes of a senate either. When a popular con-
to introduce another mode of ending the stituency fails to elect me I shall be no
dispute. And that is supposed to be fol- longer in public life, so I am not afraid of
lowed by a double referendum.
the real public opinion; but I cannot for-
Mr. LYNE : That is not the proposal get that even in England, the very home
which has been adopted !
of constitutional freedom, the very cradle
Mr. McMILLAN: No. Now, that is of our rights and liberties, public opinion
what I want to come to. Why is it that is often absolutely reversed in a few years.
we have this rapid evolution of opinion? When I consider the position we occupy,
Why have we been told by hon. mem- that our action will not be criticised by
bers who, a year ago, would never have the mere ephemeral, frothy views of cer-
expected any such concession, that the tain people at the moment, but will be con-
whole federation proposals are going to be sidered by the people of this country
wrecked unless the concession is made ? through all time, I say that while I am
I do not believe in this cry of "wolf” willing to try to the utmost of my know-
trying to coerce the judgment of others. ledge and ability to gauge public opinion,
I have the most profound respect for public while, I say, that if I knew thoroughly
opinion; but I do not always believe that what public opinion was on any question,
the mere froth on the surface represents I would bow to it; still, I believe that
the opinion of the people of the country. the people of this country by the confi-
I am anxious to see that we here are not dence they gave us practically instructed
made the slaves of wire-pullers and politi- us to make a constitution which would be
cal agitators, who do not represent the in- not merely the outcome of a passing wave
terests and the feelings of the country. I and wind of opinion, but a constitution
say that, although it is strong language, which we believe is based on principle, on
with the utmost consideration, and having the lines of our own constitution, and which
given to it all the judgment I possess. I will stand the shock of time. I am quite
have never myself been afraid to face the willing, as I said before, to leave to a cer-
people. Certainly, I have not, as a rule, tain extent this matter in the hands of
been on the side of the big battalions ; but the executive. I believe myself that in
I have often found that the real opinion the current of events occasions will arise
of the people was not in unison with the when it will be well, if there is a dead-
current idea of the moment. I want, in lock to dissolve the senate. At other times
this matter, to put my own personal feel- it will be well to dissolve the house of
ing very clearly, although it is only a mat- representatives, but I fail to see what
ter regarding myself. I believe we have sense there is in making a hard and fast
now come to a period in our deliberations rule to dissolve both at the same time. I
when each individual must be responsible to would be willing to accept a proposal of
himself for the trust reposed in him. We this kind in order to get out of the diffi-
have not been asked here to make a con- culty. I have not had an opportunity of
stitution merely to suit the end of the nine discussing it with anybody, and these mat-
teenth century; but we have been asked ters always require a great deal of discus-
to make a constitution which we sion. I do not think, in regard to any
selves have declared shall be indissoluble. great piece of machinery, that anyone's in-
I would be the last to ignore public opin- dividual opinion is worth much. You re-
ion. I am not a member of the Legisla- quire to have it put in the sieve; to have
tive Council. I never expect to be, or it thoroughly looked at and tried and
our-
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
815
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
weighed, and every possible argument of representatives to the country at the
urged against it, because what appears to same time you will never get a clear result
be a beautiful little theory may very soon
on the issue.
be knocked into pieces by the active mind The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: Under the
of another. To show what I mean, I may constitution the two houses will be elected
say that I would be willing, in the case of at the same time in the first instance, and
a house of representatives which had been also afterwards.
in existence only two years or not more
Mr. MCMILLAN: Not at all. It is
than two years, that the senate should go almost impossible to imagine that these
to the country first. I have no feeling two houses will continue to be elected at
one way or the other as to the dignity of the same time. No house of parliament,
the senate in this matter.
It is purely a
even under the present conservative ideas
mode of getting out of the difficulty and which prevail, as a rule lives out its full
getting at the opinion of the country ; but term of existence, and if it is only three
I do feel that to go and ask the senate, or four months short of the term of its
half of whose members have perhaps just natural existence then, as time goes on, it
been returned, and who believe that they must differentiate more and more from the
have a knowledge of the opinions of the other house in the periods of its elections.
people, to go back to their constituents, That, I think, is perfectly clear. How-
along with a house that may be very near ever, notwithstanding the remarks which
its death, would be an absurd thing. have fallen from the two right hon. gentle-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : We do men that this question should be settled at
not desire that. I am quite willing to once, I feel that it would be better to have
accept twelve months, but I think that even a tentative scheme now with which
the two houses should go together.
the larger colonies as a majority are not in
Mr. MCMILLAN: No; I am entirely agreement, and leave a certain time to
against the two houses going to the coun- elapse, when we shall have the benefit of
try at one time, because I say that, above the representation of all Australia in the
all the principles with which we deal in Convention, than to now allow these angry
matters conducted under the bi-cameral feelings to arise, to ask men to be practi-
government, is the principle according to cally coerced in their judgment from the
which, in the first. place, you get the acute fear of this movement falling through, be-
criticism of another body of men. In the cause that is the position we are face to
second place, if there is any dispute there is face with to-day. We have been told in
a certain time for consideration, a certain the newspapers, we have been told by
time in which the country can come to a gentlemen on both sides of this chamber,
determination, but to do that you must that if this vote is not rescinded federa-
have no mixing up of the characteristics tion is wrecked. I object to that sort of
of each house. You must have no cry, thing.
“ Here is the popular house representing
Mr. SYMON: It is expressed this morning
the people with a big "P"); the other as an ultimatum !
house represents capital, conservatism, and Mr. McMILLAN: I do not give any
other elements. We do not want that; credit to that sort of public opinion, and
what we want is that, while not giving any I do not believe that the more sober-minded
undue influence to the senate, we shall keep gentlemen on both sides of the chamber
up its character as a senate. I say most desire that the ultimatum should be given.
distinctly that if you send those two sets This is the natural reaction from the vote
816
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SRPT., 1897.1
on equal representation. You must recol- Mr. McMILLAN: My idea generally,
lect that we have a large number in this if it can be managed, is to send to the
Convention who do not believe in a second country that house which has been longest
chamber, and it is only as a necessity of away from its constituents.
federation that they agree to the senate The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: That will
under any circumstances. They have given always be the senate ! !
equal representation, not because they be-
An Hon. MEMBER: No, half of the senate!
lieve their colonies desire it, but because
Mr. McMILLAN : That is understood.
they believe it is the only means of getting
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Would the hon.
federation. So far as the people of New
member dissolve the senate if one-half of
South Wales are concerned, I believe the
that house had only just come back from
great bulk of the electors prefer propor-
the people?
tional representation in the senate. I be-
Mr. MCMILLAN: I would not.
lieve at the same time that they are not
An Hon. MEMBER: He says “No”!
going to make it a sine qua non. All I want
The Hon. H. DOBSON: Then his scheme
to do at this stage of the proceedings is to
would not work !
appeal to the fairness of this Convention.
Mr. LYNE: It would not work; you have
You have conceded equal representation ;
to face the thing straight out!
do not try to destroy it. I hold, of course,
that having arranged for equal representa-
Mr. MCMILLAN: My hon. friend's
views are well known.
tion, you must have, probably, more strin-
gent checks on the senate than you would
Mr. LYNE: And it would have been
if you bad proportional representation.
better if they had been followed further in
And it would have been better for the
this Convention !
smaller colonies to have proportional re-
Mr. MCMILLAN: My hon. friend is
presentation in the senate with less strin-
now only in a state of evolution, because
gent checks than to have equal representa-
he has told us that he is not quite sure
tion and checks wbich would render their
whether it would not be better to have
action almost impotent.
one house.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Would the hon.
Mr. SYMON : What stage in the evolu-
member mind stating again what course
tion has he reached ?
Mr. MCMILLAN: I think he is between
he agrees to as to a dissolution?
Mr. MCMILLAN: I would agree to
the devil and the deep sea.
some arrangement which, as I have said, I Mr. LYNE: The hon. member is mis-
have not been able to put in a concrete stating what I said. I never said anything
shape, by which, under certain circum- of the kind !
stances, the senate would be dissolved, in Mr. McMILLAN: My hon. friend said
order to get at a knowledge of the will of at one time he was not quite sure that it
the people, and under other circumstances
would not be better to have one house.
the house of representatives would be dis- Mr. LYNE : I beg the hon. member's
solved.
pardon. I did not !
The Hon. H. DOBSON : What are the Mr. MCMILLAN : Then I was wrong.
circumstances ?
I am not usually given to so much repetition
The Right Hon. 0. C. KINGSTON : The as, unfortunately, I have been guilty of this
hon. member's idea is to send first to the morning ; but I feel that this is a matter
country the house which had not last been which requires the fullest possible explana-
to the electors !
tion and consideration. It has, unfortu-
[Mr. McMillan.
Commonwealth of
817
[20. SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
nately, come to us as one of the knottiest to discriminate what is a matter connected
points at the end of our deliberations, with state interests, and what is a matter
when we were just on the eve of adjourn- of general interest.
ment, as we were when other matters came The Hon. H. DOBSON: It cannot be
up in Adelaide. I take it that nobody, done!
under any scheme which may be put for- Mr. MCMILLAN: You cannot do it.
ward, is desirous to cast a slur on either No human being can possibly discriminate
house. I take it that we simply want to between them. Eren supposing that you
devise a solution of this deadlock on the were to take the whole of the subjects
basis of the will of the people, and that which you relegate to the federal parlia-
all these are purely mechanical contriv- ment to-day, and supposing that by a nice
ances to get at that result. We are all discrimination you were going to make a
agreed—and I state it as my opinion that difference between them, you do not know
a dual dissolution would be a fundamental in the future, and no man knows what
objection to the whole scheme, because I subject might arise which would be really
hold that you would not get a clear decision à matter of state interests, but which
from the people. You would probably have a would appear to be a matter of solely
conflict between the two houses, instead of general interest. I have spoken, perhaps,
a thorough threshing out of the subject- rather warmly, but I do think it will be a
matter in dispute. I should like to see question of very careful consideration on
some scheme proposed by which the execu- our part before we introduce any system
tive should have the power to dissolve the which, to my mind, is absolutely fatal to
house that had been longest away from the the dignity and revising function of the
electors—that is, the house of representa- other house. I do not hold with those
tives or the senate, when half of it had who think that the senate is going to be a
been longer away from its constituents than powerful chamber, except, of course, that
the whole of the house of representatives. I it does practically represent the same con-
do not know whether a scheme of that kind stituencies. The house of representatives,
could or could not be settled.
having the executive government in it,
Mr. TRENWITH : In that case, would the having the right to initiate expenditure,
hon, member make the other house comply having all the patronage and all the power
with the verdict as given ?
arising out of government, must be the
Mr. MCMILLAN: The house would great preponderating house, and, therefore,
have to comply.
in dealing with the senate, unless we have
Mr. TRENWITH : No; that is the diffi- an absolute prejudice against its very exist-
culty !
ence, we ought, when once we introduce
Mr. MCMILLAN: It would be practic- it as an element into this federal govern-
ally a compliance if the senate were re- ment; to see that no drastic regulation is
turned. That, of course, brings up the
introduced which will render it absolutely
question of finality. There is no finality in impotent.
the scheme. There is no finality in the The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
dual referendum. And there is no finality [11:19]: The hon. member who has just
without destroying the idea of federation. resumed his seat has once more contributed
I am not going to say that there may not to the debate a thoughtful and impartial
be occasions in which the mass vote of the study of the situation from his point of
people would be the right vote for a par-
view. I believe we are indebted to him
ticular subject; but I think it is impossible on this occasion for the judicial temper of
818
Australia Bill.
Conmonuealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
his remarks, which at all events should re- Under the system of government proposed
store us to a more equable state of mind to be created, it is desirable to evoke dif-
than obtained during the discussions of ferences of opinion in order to obtain a
the past week. If I may be permitted to full discussion upon every question that is
say so, it appears to me that we are in some submitted. I am a hearty advocate of the
danger of encouraging outside, and, per- bi-cameral system, and see within the range
haps, of developing within these walls, a of prophecy no time within which that
mistaken view of the federal constitution principle can be safely departed from. But
as a whole, by dwelling, as we are com- recognising as we do that whilst in normal
pelled to dwell at this stage, upon what is, processes of discussion between the two
after all, an adjunct, so to speak, to the houses differences of opinion must arise,
main body of the constitution. Our atten- and are intended to arise, we surely cannot
tion is concentrated upon disputes and dis- disguise from ourselves the fact that these
sensions which the most pessimistic of us differences will be settled ninety-nine times
do not expect to occur with any frequency. out of a hundred by ordinary methods,
Still, when we are discussing these aspects
and without recourse to special expedients.
of the question day after day, we appear
There will be mutual concessions; there
to be in some risk of impairing our judg- will be delays; there will be compromise ;
ment by constantly dwelling upon its
and there will be on the part of one or the
irregular, and, in a sense, ungovernable other, surrender. But, by one means or
manifestations. These may occur in con- another, the bulk of the questions which
nection with any constitution, and ought, arise day by day will be settled by the
doubtless, to be provided against; but the
devices with which we are all familiar. If
study of them day after day and hour after we remember this, we shall realise that,
hour, the constant picturing to ourselves vital as the question is, by dwelling upon
of two houses in serious conflict and verging it continuously as the circumstances of the
on civil strife is not calculated to promote case now compel us, we are apt to overload
that view of the constitution or of its our imaginations, to overcharge our appre-
normal working which we must not fail hensions, and to arouse an unnecessary
to bear in mind. The daily processes of
amount of heat. After all, if both sides
this constitution will not necessarily imply will recognise that we are not at present
deadlocks, or demand any of the expedi- dealing with normal operations of the con-
ents we are considering. The regular, nor- stitution, if we recognise that what is sought
mal, healthy working of this constitution to be provided for is the unusual and ab-
will resemble the working of those con- normal, we are then able to approach what
stitutions with which we are familiar in I may call its pathological treatment with
this colony and its neighbours. What is greater calmness than we should if we as-
the deadlock that we dread ? It is, in sume, as some hon. members appear to, that
plain language, a breakdown of the legiti- we are really dealing with the ordinary oper-
mate machine. One chamber represents ation of the constitution. We are propos-
the people, and acts under the impression ing to deal with uncommon conditions, and
that it has a mandate to do certain work in with special and exceptional circumstances.
a certain way, while the other chamber, also We are only seeking to cope with circum-
claiming that it has a mandate from the stances which arise outside the ordinary
people, resists that polïcy, or its expression operations of the constitution. We may
in a particular measure. Such extreme well consent to deal with them in an extra-
antagonisms of opinion are abnormal. ordinary way, which we would not be justi-
$
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
819
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia. Bill.
fied in adopting in the ordinary working majority of the people"; or the house of
of the constitution. Under our system, representatives may reply to the senate,
differences of opinion are inevitable, but "We represent the large majority of the
those grave and serious differences which people, and the nation is with us; but we
give rise to what we term deadlocks will doubt whether, when properly submitted
be rare, and, as they are rare, may fairly to the populations of the states, it will be
be met by exceptional methods. I fail to found that they are in favour of our view."
grasp the full force of the argument of the Those are disputes that may occur where
hon. member who has preceded me, that state rights seem to be involved. These
the proposal which has been submitted to cases would be rare; but, when they do
us for a simultaneous dissolution of the appear, when state rights arise, is it not
two chambers, is in its nature, and in unreasonable to send the house of repre-
its essence, antagonistic to the bi-cameral sentatives to its constituents without also
system. The hon, member put it strongly, sending the senate? What argument is
and he put it in a variety of ways, but, it there against dissolving both at the same
may be owing to its novelty, his argument time, when the point in dispute must be
has failed to make that impression upon
remitted to the same public at the same
my mind that it has made upon his. I polls
polls? The question would then, in every
admit with him that occasions can readily part of the country, be discussed from two
be imagined on which the double dissolu- sets of platforms in every constituency
tion is the employment of too great an
of the commonwealth, the representatives
engine for the solution of the difficulty. I of the senate putting their case as they
admit with him that there are occasions would have a right to do, and the house of
when a dissolution of one chamber may representatives putting their case. Can we
meet the difficulty, but I am not able to imagine a more favourable condition of
follow him in his assertion that under no things for the operation of moderate in-
circumstances whatever—and that is what fluences, than when both houses would be
his contention amounts to-is a simul- in touch at the same time with the people ?
taneous dissolution defensible. I entirely The electors would have both sides of the
fail to see how a simultaneous dissolution question put before them. At the same
under the circumstances could impair in time that they would be listening to the
any sense the efficiency of the bi-cameral wooing voices of candidates for the repre-
system of government. I will not detain sentative house they would also be hearing
the Convention by detailing at length the appeals from those who sought seats in the
conditions which suggest themselves to me senate. The double dissolution would be
under which a double dissolution would be quite as much an advantage to the senate
the natural and effective remedy. They as to the other house ; it would give an
are those to which our attention has been opportunity of preventing the mass of the
called almost to the exclusion of all others, electors from being carried away by the
those with which the question of state enthusiasm of one party without having
rights is coupled. When state questions opposing views properly submitted. The
are supposed to be involved in a particular two parties would meet on a fair and equal
measure, and there is a prolonged conten- footing before the electors, and if anything
tion, the senate may say to the house could produce an educational influence on
of representatives, “We question whether the conduct of the election, and elicit an
on this proposal which affects the rights expression of the soundest judgment of the
of the states you have the assent of the electors, it would be such a contest con-
820
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
ducted by such means. For my own part of the whole country according to the prin-
I consider those state questions, as I have ciples of that party, it appears to me that
often urged, would rarely arise, and the deadlocks are less likely to occur in this
real question which would be submitted constitution than in any federal constitu-
-however you have your dissolutions-- tion the world has yet seen.
The ordinary
would be the question of the one party modes of settlement are likely to operate
against the other—the policy of one section all through owing to the equal franchise-
of the community against the policy of and the similar constituencies, and qualifi-
another section. Hon, members through- cations of the two chambers-in nine cases
out this discussion appear to me to have, out of ten. When the serious struggle
to some extent, biassed their judgment on does come it will never be a struggle of
both sides. The one party by assuming the large states against the small, or the
that necessarily the majority in the house of small states against the large. It will be
representatives will be the liberal majority the ordinary party struggle maintained
which in our legislatures usually obtains now in every chamber throughout Aus-
the mastery in that chamber, and probably tralia, the one party ranking against the
will obtain it in the commonwealth. In other. Those who so jealously view this
the same way, those who are defending double dissolution have no more to fear
what they believe to be the rights of the the majority in the house of representa-
senate, have in their minds the resistance tives than they have to fear the majority
offered by the legislative councils through- in the senate itself. I admit that our
out these colonies as affording them the great difference on this question, as on so
best illustration of the struggle which they many questions, arises from one fact : that
expect to be raised. That analogy fails these colonies, at present, are in very differ-
once more, because in this instance both
ent stages of political development. Our
bodies spring from the same franchise. friends in Western Australia have all their
Both bodies spring from the same class of troubles before them. The right hon. mem-
electors, simply divided into different con- ber, Sir John Forrest, an optimistic pre-
stituencies. Under those circumstances mier by nature, and also by experience,
you can have no deadlocks under this con- seeing that he has never known what it is
stitution unless you have one party domin- to lead an opposition or be in a minority
ant in the one chamber, and the other in the colony he represents, and who is
party dominant in the other. Under no obviously most unwilling to learn what it
circumstances will it be a struggle, as the means to be in a minority brere
hon. member put it, of house against house The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I
-using those terms strictly—but it may am old enough to learn !
well be a struggle of the majority of one The Right Hon. G. H. REID : He wants
party in one house against the majority of to make a place for himself under the con-
another party in the other house. Under stitution !
those circumstances--the questions being The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Most happy
rarely state questions-the questions being should I be to see so able an administra-
party questions—the struggle being of one tor and doughty a champion find his due
party in the country as a whole, against place under the constitution ; but if he
the other, each party having its represen- will permit me to say so—speaking from
tation in both houses, and each party's aim my small to his large experience-I think
being to have that majority in both houses he will admit that on those questions
which will enable it to control the policy wbich relate to the difficulties that arise in
A
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
821
1
the working of a constitution, necessarily right hon. gentleman, Sir John Forrest.
New South Wales, as the oldest colony of It will be simply a question of time and
the group, can speak with the strongest experience.
voice, and the other colonies without dis- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
tinction can practically speak in the order We have no provision at all for that!
of their birth. In the states where there The Hon. A, DEAKIN: Because you
is the largest population, naturally there have not two parties. Practically, you
has been the earliest assertion of those have not two houses. Practically, there is
constitutional rights which in the mother only one house, one party, and one premier.
country have led to the undoubted ascen- Now, if what we have to face is not a
dancy of the popular chamber. The Right struggle of state against state, but of party
Hon. Sir John Forrest, with his optimistic against party; if that is maintained upon
view, drawn naturally from bis own expe- lines of party politics and party principle ;
rience in the colony he represents, if he if the effort is simply to obtain a majority
could see with the spectacles which have in both houses, and if those two houses
had to be worn in the older colonies, would have, as under this Constitution they have,
perceive the difficulties which inevitably practically the same constituency, what is
arise out of our constitutions, and would be the natural, the inevitable solution—as it
more willing than he seems at present to appears to me—that is called for by the
assist us in providing some means of sol- very circupistances of the case, and in the
ving the difficulty. This is the position : very constitution we are drafting? What is
the different colonies are in different stages
the natural solution of all difficulties which
of political development; it is a disap- may arisel Both chambers are elective,
pearing difficulty, and will tend more and both derive their authority from the same
more to disappear, for reasons which I electors. What more natural than to refer
have mentioned in connection with another both chambers, in the first instance, back
part of this subject. In every colony in to the people? The conclusion is inevitable.
the group-eren in the Right Hon. Sir This constitution provides for that at cer-
John Forrest's own colony, and in his own tain periods — at least every three years
policy admirably adapted to the circum- the house of representatives and one half
stances of that great and growing part of of the senate must face their constituents.
the continent, I have myself seen an At least every six years must the whole
undoubted advance in a liberal direction of the senate be renewed. We have en-
year by year, and certainly parliament by shrined the principle of the rule of the
parliament.
majority in this constitution, and surely
The Rigiit Hon. Sir John FORREST: I there is nothing sacred in the mere time of
have been the leader of it!
its application. The sacredness is in the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I admit it. principle that the majority should rule.
The right hon. gentleman is the leader, and There is no sacredness in the condition that
I believe he is likely to remain so, and I it is to be every three years or six years that
warn the Legislative Council of Western the people should express their will. We
Australia, through its Acting-President, say, "Under the regular, natural operation
Mr. Hackett, that when the time comes
of the constitution, the elections every
for the struggle between the two chambers three and six years will suffice, and be
of that colony, and the cure for dead- likely to prove ample.”
locks is undertaken, the fiercest champion
Mr. McMILLAN : That is under ordinary
he will have to encounter will be the circumstances !
.
3 i
822
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes. But senate without dissolving the house of re-
when we have a special emergency, what presentatives, which, as my hon. friend
are we to do? That which we do now points out, they would be particularly slow
under the constitution every three years to
to dissolve. What better guarantee does
the whole of one body and to half the other, the hon. gentleman ask for the senate ?
we should do to both at once. That is the Mr. McMILLAN: You do not follow the
natural way of solving the difficulty. Could Lon, member!
there be less departure from the princi- Mr. SYMON: You have not caught his
ples of the constitution, or the machinery point!
we have embodied in it than that? We The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Only as
are to have under the constitution one far as convenient !
means only of obtaining authority from the The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Let me hear
people, and of returning to ask for a re- the hon. gentleman explain if I have done
newal of their trust, that is by an elec-
him any injustice.
.
tion of both chambers. What more simple
Mr. SYMON : You have the wrong end
than to say that under certain circum- of the bludgeon to which the right hon.
stances both those chambers should appeal member, Mr. Reid, referred !
to the electors for instructions as to a par-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: The executive
ticular about which they cannot or will would always inflict the least possible
not agree.
penalty upon the house of representatives,
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Supposing half from whom they would derive their exist-
the senate had just been re-elected ? How ence. They would punish the senate, but
can you get over that difficulty ?
not the house of representatives.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The hon. The Hon. A. DEAKIN: What my hon.
member who preceded me said very fairly friend means is, that the executive will not
that you could put a number of cases in dissolve the house of representatives until
which obviously a single dissolution of one its term is drawing to a close, and then
house might suffice. But if you have half the election will be held practicalıy at little
the senate just elected, and the whole of or no extra cost to the house of represen-
the house of representatives just elected, tatives, but at great cost to the senate.
what are you going to do under those The bon. member has failed to note that
circumstances ?
the Premier of Victoria has already inti-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No dissolu- mated to the Convention that he is willing
tion would ever be ordered then. They to accept an intervening period of six
would wait until the house of representa-
months or twelve months. He has stated
tives had nearly expired!
that he is willing to agree that the dissolu-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is prob- tion should be delayed even for twelve
able, but not always certain.
months. As the hon. member will see,
that
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Almost cer- gets rid of his objection.
tain. The executive would never inflict The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : It does not
any more punishment on the house of get rid of it altogether—it mitigates it !
representatives on which it depends for its The Hon. E. BARTON : Does my hon.
very existence than it could help!
and learned friend mean that they would
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Quite so. The delay the dissolution ?
hon. gentleman has given me my strongest The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The Premier
argument. Under the proposal for the of Victoria this morning said that in order
dual dissolution they can never dissolve the to meet the possible objection that the
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
823
T20 SEPT., 1897.
Australico Bill.
.
double dissolution might be employed by one of its chief recommendations. It gets
the house of representatives when, under rid of the idea that either house is being
the circumstances of the case, it was com- penalised. In one sense, a dissolution at
pelled to be dissolyed itself, and when, there any time is a penalisation of the particular
fore, it would be making no special sacri- members who are put to personal incon-
fice, he was prepared to allow six months, venience, outlay, and difficulty in order to
or even twelve months, to elapse between contest their seats. But, looking at it from
the day when the measure was rejected a public point of view, the word "penalisa-
by the senate and the day on which the tion" cannot be said to apply especially
two bodies should be sent to their consti- when both parties to the dispute are sent
tuents for an expression of their opinion on to their constituents at the same time. I
the merits of the question.
think the hon. and learned member, Mr.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : If the ques- Symon, himself might be expected to admit
tion can wait for twelve months it cannot that the existence of such a power as that
be very urgent !
of simultaneous dissolution in the consti-
Mr. LYNE: Better leave it alone, if you tution would be an even greater incentive
are going to make the time twelve months ! to moderation on the part of both chambers
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It would than any proposal for a single dissolution
want a special incubator to bring it to life of either house ever could be. Dissolve
again!
which you please. Take the hon, and learned
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The interval member's proposal for the prior dissolution
to elapse may be discussed when we come of the house of representatives. This means
face to face with the question. The amend- that the senate is able to say to the minis-
ment, if adopted, offers a complete reply try of the day, "Before you pass any con-
to the objection urged by the hon. member, tested measure, you shall pay this penalty.
Dr. Cockburn, and as such I employed it; You shall put your government and the
but I by no means say that the same object existence of your majority at stake, and
is not to be attained by other and better compel your house to undergo a dissolution.
means. I point to one simple and obvious We, the senate majority, mean to pass the
means which has already been indicated; measure. We agree with its principles. We
and, under these circumstances, claim that, would pass it now, if it did not happen that
having answered the interjection, I have we have a majority of senators who are
disposed of the wholeof the objection urged opposed to the majority in the house of
to the double dissolution by those who, like representatives. You, as a government,
my hon. friend, consider that we in some are opposed to us; we belong to the party
way infringe upon the bi-cameral system which is in a minority in the house of
repre-
by the simultaneous dissolution - not sentatives, though we are in a majority in
“Symon-taneous."
the senate. Having a majority in the
Mr. SYMON: A very good pun; it quite senate, we mean to penalise you and to
lightens the discussion !
compel you, even when we agree with
your
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: A simultaneous measure, to dissolve your house and risk
dissolution, as the hon. member Dr. Cock- Four majority before we will consent to
burn's interjection showed, is a course by pass it." The hon. and learned gentleman
no means likely to be adopted by an execu-
must remember that the senate is not to be
tive responsible to the house of represen- used merely as the organ of the states. It
tatives, except under extreme pressure, and will be used as the organ of the party hav-
its equity, under these circumstances, is ing a roajority in it. That party majority
S24 Commonwealth of [20 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
will naturally seize every opportunity of
Mr. WISE : Each will act under the
punishing their opponents by compelling same sense of responsibility!
them to face their constituents, and will The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It appears to
take every chance of destroying the govern- me that the defect in the method proposed
ment on any side-issue which they may by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
be able to introduce. I admit at once that Symon, and that suggested by the hon.
the argument might be put with similar member, Mr. McMillan, is this--and I am
force against the otherwise reasonable pro- using one of their own arguments against
i posal of the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, for themselves : You will multiply elections
a dissolution of the senate alone. If the and make dissolutions of frequent occur-
house of representatives had the dissolution rence for working the constitution for
in its hands—that is to say, the dissolution merely party purposes. Neither party would ·
of the senate the executive in the same hesitate to seize and use the power to dis-
way, if the majority in the senate was solve a chamber in which there was a ma-
against them, would say, "If you reject jority opposed to it. Whenever one party
this bill we will take the opportunity, was in a minority in one house, it would
even though we otherwise would accept make use of this single dissolution for its
your amendment, of seeing whether we own political ends, and not to solve dead-
cannot turn your majority into a minority, locks or in the interests of the state. But if
and regaia a majority for our party in the you place them on exactly the same footing,
second chamber." The hon. member will with the same penalty imposed upou both,
see that under these circumstances in each you make both equally desirous of aroiding
case the one house has something to gain strife. You give the greatest encourage-
by dissolution. The executive has some- ment, the greatest inducement both to com-
thing to gain or something to lose. This promise and to hasten å settlement that
would make dissolution frequent.
you could possibly offer. Both chambers
Mr. MCMILLAN : But the hon. and would occupy the same position. Instead
learned member will allow that there is of one taking its life in its hands at the bid-
some sense of responsibility ?
ding of the other, both would escape dissolu-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I allow there tion so long as they agreed. After twenty
is a sense of reponsibility,
years' experience of political life in one
Mr. WISE :
colony, and some slight acquaintance with
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : It is because politics in other colonies, I have yet to dis-
of the responsibility evoked that I wish cover any two houses of parliament anxious
to emphasise the advantage of a double to dissolve themselves before their time. I
dissolution. I honestly believe that if this firmly believe that the introduction of this
provision for a simultaneous dissolution provision into a federal constitution would
be placed on the statute-book, as you put be the greatest safeguard, the greatest
equal pressure on both parties to the dis- encouragement and inducement to modera-
pute, as both parties to the dispute have tion, agreement, and harmony between
to pay an equal price in support of their the two chambers, which you could con-
own opinion, as both parties to the dis- trive. One majority would not be able
pute have to take their political lives in to punish another majority. Both sides
their hands and face their constituents, if would have a similar end to gain, and both
they persist in disagreeing, you have an would be likely to approach a settlement of
eminently fair and equitable device for ren- the question in a spirit of fairness, straight-
dering disputes short and dissolutions rare. forwardness, and willingness to concede
t
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
825
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
your houses !”
something in a rational way to the other's myself, regard the proposal as a consider-
views rather than run the gauntlet of an able concession. I regard that as marking
election together.
a great advance.
The proposal is one
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : The which, if no other could be obtained, I
country might say, "a plague on both myself would accept; but because I would
accept it in the absence of a better proposal,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: The strongest it is not necessary that I should blind my-
instinct in the Australian elector, as in the self to the fact that, having in the light of
British elector, is the instinct of fair play. this debate more closely examined the pro-
And when the electors were brought to a posal for a dissolution of one house or the
knowledge of the compromises which had other, I have come to the conclusion that
been rejected by one house or by the other, · a single dissolution in neither case can
the house which was recalcitrant would be prove itself efficacious. The only dissolu-
made to pay the penalty. It is quite pos- tion of any value which could properly be-
sible that the country might consider that come part of the constitution, and encour-
neither house ought to have forced such age the settlement of difficulties, is a double
an extreme step as a dissolution, in which dissolution. I now see that a single dis-
case both parties might be made to pay the solution would mean the perpetuation of
penalty by an indignant body of electors.
mere party warfare instead of a solution
It seems to me, without elaborating the of deadlocks. If a simultaneous dissolu-
matter any further, that the main support tion be accepted, it has been suggested
of the proposal lies in these manifest ad- that the proposal to provide a still further
vantages which a double dissolution enjoys step in the shape of a dual referendum is
over a single dissolution from a public unnecessary.
point of view. I say that the more frankly Mr. MCMILLAN: Would not the want
because this proposal marks a great con- of finality make the difference more
cession on the part of the men who have marked ?
made it. I cannot conceal from myself
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: There is no
our existing differences of opinion and of absolute finality, I admit; but the provi-
political principles in this Convention; and sion for a double dissolution first, would
I submit that, from the standpoint of hon. often permit of the settlement of difficul-
members from the less populous colonies,
ties without the referendum. The greatest
they have made a great stride towards merit of this proposal is that it provides
unity. If this had been made in Adelaide, an opportunity for a pacific settlement of
it would have considerably relieved the ten- most difficulties without an appeal to a
sion of the situation ; but not being made double dissolution. You will have intro-
in Adelaide, it has roused so great a feeling duced into the constitution an admission
that the public here are not now prepared of the principle that the prevention of dead-
to stop where they might have stopped be.. locks is better than their cure.
fore. At that time it appeared that no pro-
Mr. MCMILLAN: Does not the hon.mem-
posal for the solution of deadlocks would ber think that the provision for a referen-
be accepted by a majority of the Conven- dum may induce the senate to still more
tion. At this meeting we find that a strongly oppose the house of representa-
proposal which, when made by Mr. Wise tives?
in Adelaide, received but a few votes, is The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will come
carried by a majority of the Convention to that presently. I admit that there is no
against a minority, some of whom, like absolute finality in a double dissolution.
826
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[ 20 Sept., 1897.]
And even when you go beyond that to a verdict of a constituency upon that alone.
double referendum there is no absolute If, on the other hand, you take the refer-
and certain finality.
endum, it will allow you to clear away all
Mr. McMILLAN: With a double disso- such electoral inconsistencies. All those
lution you may give rise to more compli- purely personal and local questions which
cation than ever!
are so frequently introduced into an elec-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I think not. tion will disappear. The personal question
Even under existing circumstances it is would certainly disappear, and it would
necessary to have a single dissolution be- become a question of the measures, not the
fore you settle vexed questions; but the man. Under these circumstances, it is
advantage of a double dissolution is that, manifest that the dual referendum has the
in a number of cases, it would not be ap- advantage of clarifying a situation, by show-
plied. The mere existence of the provision ing what the electors do think upon a pre-
would operate for the settlement of dis- cise issue. Hon. members say there is no
putes. If you have a double dissolution finality in the step. I admit that. Before
the circumstances of serious difficulty which you take the dual referendum, however,
remain after it will be infinitesimal in num- you have had a double dissolution, a simul-
ber, and if they do remain you can take the taneous dissolution, when all party forces
further step of a double referendum. Even having been brought into play, you will
those who oppose the referendum admit have obtained a general verdict, as nearly
that at an election it is impossible to pro-
as local circumstances will permit, upon
perly solve a single and separate issue owing the issue in dispute. When you come to
to local considerations, and party considera- the second struggle, no doubt some other
tions of many kinds. Electors may differ considerations will come into play. Each
with their member on one point, but will party will attack the weakest point on the
not always lose the services of a man who other side, efforts will be concentrated upon
has represented their constituency for a
the doubtful states, and it is probable that
number of years because of that difference, in the great proportion of cases, a majority
vital though it may be.
which was doubtful, from a double disso-
Mr. Syson: The electors will put men lution, may be rendered certain by the
before measures then !
referendum. In neither scheme of disso-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I do not think lution can you have absolute finality. But
they should always put measures before this process will afford such instruction to
There are many circumstances and politicians, and such a warning to the ex-
considerations which determine their choice. ecutive of the day that even if it does not
Take, for instance, such leaders of policy in
solve the deadlock, it will teach us the
England as Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Balfour.
true situation as nothing else can. I have
I could understand conservatives or liberals
not now much to add. I cannot disguise
in the constituency of either of those gen-
from myself the fact that hon. - gentle-
tlemen sinking their principles at the polls
men representing different political prin-
so that neither man should be lost to the ciples are naturally opposed to a double
councils of the nation. I do not
I do not say that
dissolution. A dissolution of the senate is
in exceptional circumstances that course to them something they cannot swallow
would not be justifiable. But the circum-
without a wry face. I appreciate the mag-
stances would be exceptional. The familiar nanimous and generous speech of the hon.
fact is that at our elections you cannot, as
member, Sir John Downer, who, I under-
a rule, so isolate an issue as to obtain the stand, is prepared to make some sacrifice
men.
t
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
827
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
with a view to the solution of this vexed We shall show that the reality of this issue
question. We ought not to forget that we is recognised, and that while we believe
are being met in this matter in a concilia- that under this constitution there will be
tory spirit, and the encouragement which less complication and less opportunity for
has been offered in the solution of this and serious deadlocks, and though we believe
other difficult questions by members from that they will occur only under very ex-
less populous states, has been the means of ceptionable circumstances, yet, rccognising
saving this Convention at its first hour that what we are constructing is a legisla-
and in its last. They saved it in Adelaide, tive machine, we shall not be turned aside
they saved it here.
by the word “mechanical”_"méchanical
An HON. MEMBER: From the extremists means of escape," or "mechanical safety-
on both sides !
valve”-from adding this essential to our
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We gave them machine, though even that may not make
an overwhelming majority for equal repre- it perfect. We are here to do our work
sentation, showing we were not unwilling scientifically. Having seen the possibility
to follow the noble lead they had given us. of a grave parliamentary contention, which
They have met and are meeting us in the might threaten the very life of the com-
fairest possible spirit, and it appears to
munity, no matter how remote may-be
me that the only words that ought to be the concatenation of circumstances néces-
used in this debate are those which express sary to generate them, we have been fore-
and convey concord, amity, and good feel- warned. Knowing what we have ourselves
ing. Naturally a somewhat vehement poli- experienced in these internecine disputes,
tician, prone perhaps to take offence, I have knowing how high party spirit can rise,
been unable in this Convention to feel my and recognising that the very principle of
wounds, though I have received a consider- the British Constitution implies the shock
able number of blows, perhaps deserved, of opposite opinions, discussions, and con-
especially those from my hon. friends, the stant differences, and the solution of diffi-
presidents of legislative councils. It is my culties in a manly way by constitutional
cross in life to have the presidents of legis- procedure, we have not hesitated to pro-
lative councils perpetually chastising me,
vide the best means in our power so as to.
because they love me. With becoming protect this constitution in the future, and
meekness I have submitted to the correc- enable it to maintain in harmonyits onward
tion which they have administered, and am march. We are planning a constitution in
unable to remember it with any regret. It which this provision shall find a place apart
appears to me that in this Convention the ---as its medicine, and not asits daily food-
growth of good-feeling has been greater which will prove that a statesmanlike fore-
than any of us expected or believed pos- sight existed amongst us, and that nothing
sible. I did not dream for one moment that was wanting on our part to provide against
we should see approaches which we have all the dangers which might possibly occur.
already witnessed on the part of hon, mem- Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:4]:
bers, and decline to believe that, having Such a provision as the hon. and learned
approached so closely, we shall not before member, Mr. Deakin, has so eloquently
we separate place in this measure some described in the close of his speech is
provision in regard to deadlocks. It may embodied in the amendment which was
not be perfect from any point of view, but carried on my motion on Friday last; there-
it will exhibit the stream of tendency in fore, I might leave the general description
ourselves, and which exists out of doors. of the great benefits that are to arise
7
828
Australici Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
o
from a provision of that kind to the lan- An Hon. MEMBER : Hotels are the best
guage so well employed by my hon. and places in which to meet them!
learned friend just before he sat down. It Mr. SYMON: I do not want to be di-
would be upgracious if I did not acknow- verted in any way from what I am sub-
ledge the exceedingly fair and moderate, mitting to hon.members; but—underlying
as well as powerful, effort made by him what my hon. friend, of course, in a jest-
to bring under our notice every possible ing way, interjected—there is no doubt
reason in favour of the simultaneous or that the feeling which animates all of us
concurrent dissolution, as against the suc- is that threats, jeers, and gibes of all kinds
cessive dissolution which we support, and are to be drowned in some way or other,
I also feel that he is quite justified in re- So far as we from the smaller states are
ferring with expressions of appreciation to concerned, we intend to put them wholly
the vote of hon. members representing the behind our backs. I thank the hon. mem-
smaller states in support of his view. But ber, Mr. McMillan, for his courageous
we might expect him to recognise, at the speech this morning. It may not have
same time, the magnanimity operating in been convincing, but it was brave, and I
the minds of hon. members representing tell him, and also hon. members of the
the larger states who in opposition to a Convention, that we are not going to have
state of feeling-a state of clamour I think our judgment coerced; we are not of those
I might almost call it-have come for- of whom it was said :
ward and vindicated their own indepen- A marciful Providunce fashioned us holler,
dent judgment and have supported the
O' purpose that we might our principles swaller.
proposition which we from the other states We do not intend to do anything of that
have brought forward.
If there is mag-
kind; but such a speech as my hon. and
nanimity on one side, there is equal mag- learned friend, Mr. Deakin, has just made,
nanimity--greater magnanimity, it seems is calculated, at any rate, to induce men
to me-on the other, because, as has been to reconsider from every point of view the
pointed out over and over again, the in- position which they have taken up, and
fluences which are brought to bear are dif- to give all possible weight to the argu-
cult to resist. It is very hard, indeed, for
ments which he has addressed to them.
members representing the larger states to I think that my hon. and learned friend
act as they think right upon an indepen- would have been more convincing if the
dent, honest, and conscientious judgment senate and the house of representatives
in order to give effect to a proposition had identically the same power—if hon.
which is immediately scouted because it is members had allowed us in the senate
said, most unjustly said, to be the outcome the same money powers, if they had
of a combination on the part of the smaller
allowed us in the senate some control over
states. I deny that position.
the executive, if they had allowed us in
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : That has the senate, not all, but some measure of
been withdrawn already!
that control over appointments and ad-
Mr. SYMON: Iwas not referring to what ministration which exists—I think in an.
myright hon. friend, Sir George Turner, has unnecessary, excessive, and improper de.
said. My hon. friend, Mr. Holder, is mis- gree—in the constitution of the United
taken. I am referring to statements that States. Then I say there would have been
are cast broadly throughout the land. We a great deal of force in the speech of my
meet them at the hotels, we meet thema in hon. and learned friend. It is just be-
thestreets, we meet them in the public press. cause you have shorn the senate upon
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
829
which the states which are the less popu- safeguards, as I felt them, amongst w which
lous now, but which may not be the less this so called deadlock provision is one,
populous states in the future, of the to permit of time for consideration, I
great nation which we are about to create, yielded on that point. But, and this comes
rely, and which is the protector of these home to me more because of the hon. and
communities, of the powers which are learned member's speech, if we had given
necessary for an equal control, that my this up at the Adelaide Convention, in-
hon. and learned friends argument fails in stead of paving the way for harmony and
its effect. What are we to do now? Are we finality it would have paved the way to
to hand over the senate bodily to the additional and larger demands. Is the
greater populations represented by their Premier of Victoria content to accept the
greater power in the house of representa- concurrent dissolution as final ? Is he
tives—represented by the executive go- content to waive his demands for a dual
vernment, which is responsible to the house referendum ?
of representatives, and to the house of The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Con-
representatives only ?
sidering that I went for a dual referendum,
An Hon. MEMBER: That is the point! and only put in a double dissolution on
Mr. SYMON: My hon. and learned pressure, I do not think it likely. I am
friend said that we had made a great con- perfectly prepared to take the dual referen-
cession. I consider that we have made an dum without a dissolution.
immense concession. In 1891, there was Mr. SYMON : Is my right hon. friend
no suggestion of the necessity for making prepared to take the converse ?
any concession of this kind.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No. I
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes; I moved it only take that as a compromise !
in the Constitutional Committee. The Mr. SYMON: Then we are landed in
division was against me!
the double dissolution and the dual refer-
Mr. SYMON: Well, I know that, so endum, and superadded to that we may
far as I have been able to ascertain, it was
have a national referendum as well. If
not dealt with seriously in the Conven- we give way upon this point we will have
tion of 1891. I freely grant that in the to give way upon other points. Hon. mem-
process of time there is a natural evolution bers are like the horse-leech. With them
of political principles and practice too. it is give, give.
The Hon. S. FRASER: And divergence, An Hon, MEMBER : The daughter of the
too !
horse-leech !
Mr. SYMON: Possibly. We are de- Mr. SYMON: An authority reminds
veloping from day to day, and it is for me that it is the daughter of the horse-
that reason that this second session of leech. When we give way on this matter,
the Convention is now being held. I said which is so essentially a matter of prin-
a few days ago that in the interests of ciple, other matters of principle will be
the cause we have at heart, and as safe- put before us, and we shall be expected to
guards were provided, I should not further
give way upon them. The axe is laid at
resist the provision which took away from the root of the tree, and if we do not take
the serate the power of amending tax bills. care, the senate, which represents the con-
In my belief we had settled and dealt stitutional tree, will be felled to the ground.
with it finally at the Adelaide Convention. All my hon. friends who are desirous of
There were no additional reasons brought adhering to a clear and intelligible prin-
forward, and as there were important ciple will, I hope, stand firm as to this,
830 Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
and will say that, granting it is well that Mr. Wise: The amendment I propose
in order to secure the success of feder- to move, if the blank is left, is an alterna-
ation there should be some outlet, some tive proposal !
safety-valve, and that that safety-valve Mr. SYMON: I do not intend to go
should take the form of a dissolution over the ground that we have already
of the senate at some stage or other, at covered in these debates. The shorter we
any rate that dissolution should not take can make the discussion, so long as our
place until after the house of representa- views are fairly expressed, the better. But
tives has gone to its constituents and come I want to emphasise what I have put
back with a mandate to which the senate before, and what I have said again to-day.
must either yield or be asked in the con- The functions of the senate are twofold.
stitutional way to seek the authority of That, it seems to me, some hon. members
its constituents to maintain its position.
do not bear in mind. First of all it is for
I think the suggestion as to proceduremade the protection of state interests, seeing
by the right hon. member, Sir George that in the larger sense it is the states
Turner, is the best one. I do not for a house, and when difficulties arise between
moment believe that the amendment es- the house of representatives and the senate,
tablishing the principle of successive dis- the custodian and guardian of state rights,
solutions will be rescinded in this House. things will become very serious indeed. But
But if the right hon. gentleman says that
in addition to that the senate is the house
he wishes to have an opportunity given for which imposes check and secures delay in
the executive government of the federation the ordinary legislation of the country. In
to put in force the alternative, if the con- that capacity it seems to me that its duty
ditions require it, there is great reason in is to see that the house of representatives
that attitude, and it is possible that some is giving effect, in the measure brought
hon. members--at present I am not one before it, to the will of the people. If that
of them--who support the other may be is not the function of the senate so far as
willing to entrust the federal executive its position as a revising house is concerned
which is responsible to the house of repre- it has no function at all. Its duty is to
sentatives with the power, as they will interpose delay and bring about reconsid-
have the responsibility, of undertaking so eration, and the only purpose it can serve
serious a selection as that.
is to secure that it gets a full and ade-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: It would quate expression of the will of the people.
always end in a dual referendum !
To send back a measure to the house of
Mr. SYMON: I do not wish to shut representatives with amendments, or in
my eyes to the views taken by different hon. its original state, declaring that it will
members; but, putting it as a question of not accept it, and that the House must
procedure, so far as bringing the matter go to its constituents before the measure
under consideration to decision is con- can be brought under their notice again,
cerned, it seems to me that this provision seems to me a perfectly adequate and right
for successive dissolutions is that which has position for the senate to take. If, on
met, and I believe will meet again, with the other hand, you say that merely in
the support of a majority of hon. members. another session, after an interval of six
At the same time, there may be a majority or twelve months, the bill has to go up
who are willing to trust the federal execu- again to the senate, then you are not get-
tive and to have the alternative suggested ting an expression of the will of the people
by my hon, and learned friend as well. at all. You are getting the expression of
t
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
831
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
the will of the house of representatives, other man--let it go to its friends and con-
which may not be in harmony with the stituents and see if they approve of this
people they represent. Difficulties have excited front that it presents to those who
been pointed out, and there are difficulties are supposed to check him, and when that
of course in every solution you may at- house comes back with the approval of the
tempt. If you have a successive dissolu- constituents
tion, you have an election at two different The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They will con-
times; if you have a concurrent dissolu- tinue the fight!
tion, you have an election at the same Mr. SYMON: Not at all. You do not
time. But with a concurrent dissolution continue the fight any more than you do
you will intensify the struggle that has now, What would happen in our colony,
been initiated between the two houses, for instance, if you had such a dissolution?
because you will have the members of the The members of the house of representa-
senate, and the members of the house of tives would be withdrawn from the fray ;
representatives addressing their consti- they would be out of it. It is, then, a
tuents throughout the country at the same question whether members of the other
time, and you will have the personal ele- house have acted as they have done with
ment introduced which is sought to be the sanction of their constituents; that is
eliminated by the referendum. You will all. I wish to say that I have no desire
have popular prejudice introduced, and you to aggravate the difficulties of the ques-
will have the men on both sides raising the tion. Our duty is to see if we can arrive
standard of a struggle between the house at a just and fair solution. If your solution.
of representatives and the senate.
is better than mine, I am prepared to accept
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: You will it; but I say mine is the best at present. If
have both sides of the question put at yours is better than mine, and it is put into
once; by the other method both sides of the constitution, we must give consideration
the question will be put at different times ! to the most effective way of recommending
Mr. SYMON: My hon. friend does not
it to our people; but at present we are
see that if you have both sides of the
endeavouring, by bringing the propositions
question put at different times, you do together, to secure something which will
not have the two champions coming into
be just to all, and fair in the solution of
constant conflict.
this very difficult problem. But I am
Mr. TRENWITH :
pointing out now that the very difficulties
which you suggest, and which may arise,
Mr. SYNON: Of course there is a
undoubtedly, in a successive dissolution,
remedy, that is, to fight it out; but that
you will have in just as large measure
is the Donnybrook kind of argument.
with the concurrent dissolution, with the
Mr. TRENWITH : That is better than
added personal element, the added ele-
having the fight all on one side !
ment of personal bitterness in fighting the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The hon. matter out, which you are bound to get
member says, “Let the other fellow fight when the members of the house of repre-
it out!”
sentatives and the senate meet before
Mr. SYMON : My argument is, let the exactly the same constituents. You will
house which is in the position of the have the members of the senate heated
quarrelling house--not the house whose and angry instead of calm, as they would
duty it is to exercise a check, and to soothe otherwise have been-calmer still if my
and subdue the inflamed passions of the hon. friend had been a member of it. They
832
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.
will be filled with the idea that they have sure about that. In some respects it might
been caused the endless expense and not be likely to be used; but what an in-
trouble of an election by the overbearing strument it is you are holding over the
majority-a very unjust expression to use senate !
no doubt in the house of representa- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: And tho
tives.
other chamber too !
Mr. TRENWITH : The senate cannot be Mr. SYMON: Not so much the other
overbearing; it must always be the house chamber. The hon. member knows that
of representatives !
the other chamber, in every well regulated
Mr. SYMON: I do not know, I am system of English responsible government,
sure; but I think that they, very possibly,
is liable to be sent to its constituents now
might be overbearing. I do not say that under a dissolution. I do not call it a penal
they are more likely to be angelic; they dissolution. I object to that term. It is
will be human beings with passions like only a mode of bringing them into harmony
ours; and I do not think they will be any with the feelings of the country. That ex-
more angelic than the house of representa- ists at this moment. It applies to some
tives. It is for that very reason, as my upper houses in some unified constitutions;
hon. friend feels — and I am sure he will it does so in ours; but we are introducing
accept my deduction—it is because they it as a new thing in a federal constitution.
are men having like passions with the We are putting a new weapon in the hands
members of the house of representatives of the federal executive and a majority of
that I do not believe in the concurrent the house of representatives. If we do
dissolution. You will not have them ac- put it there, we ought to take care that it
dressing their constituents with the same is not a two-edged sword, but a weapon
calmness, or, at any rate, with the same that will have no more destructive effect
moderating effect on the public mind, as than we can possibly help. Let us minimise
you would have them in the case of a suc- it. We are all agreed that there should
cessive dissolution, with intervals of six or be a dissolution ; let us make it as moder-
twelve months between. Then the hon.
. ate in its effect as we possibly can.
It
member, Mr. Deakin, said there would be does seem to me that the moderating in-
little or no probability of these powers fluence is all in the direction of having a
being exerted. That is a position that successive dissolution, with an interval
cannot be emphasised too strongly. For for reconsideration of the same measure
the very reason that that is, probably, the ---an interval for calming the political
opinion of the whole body of this con- passions which have been excited-and
vention, it is not an argument for put- if we have that, it will be ten thousand
ting this provision in the constitution; times better than a mere interval in which
but it is a very good argument for saying you do not get the opinion of the coun-
that it should not be put in. If we are try upon a measure ; but merely the same
so satisfied that this difficulty will not opinion of the same body of representatives.
arise, the less drastic the powers we put When both houses go to the country con-
in the constitution to exercise a control- currently the result will be that you will
ling influence over the senate, the more we have an acrimonious struggle, and it
are likely to frame a lasting and prudent may be that you will bring the parties
machine of government. The double dis- back in exactly the same position as they
solution, my hon. friend said, would be were before. It will be ineffective as well
less likely to be used. I am not so very as troublesome. I feel sure that such a.
t
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
833
[20 SEPT., 1897.
Tustsalia Bill.
I am
sure
provision as that will be a blot upon the be defeated, whether I am on the defeated
constitution which we are now engaged in side, or my hon. friends are on the defeated
framing
side-that it will be received by all of us
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Without that with goodwill, and with the determination
there will be no constitution to have a blot that, whatever our own personal opinions
upon!
may be, we shall give the constitution,
Mr. McMILLAN : I do not know why whatever shape it may take, our best sup-
the hon. member should talk in that port when it is handed over to be adopted
way !
by the people who send us here.
Mr. SYMON: After an interval of six The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
months for consideration there is to be South Wales) [12:35]: I should be ex-
a double dissolution. My hon. friend tremely pleased if I thought the situation
will feel that he has been a little hasty of affairs was so simple that we could pro-
in making that remark.
ceed at once to the question, as my right
that he did not mean it. However, we hon. friend, Sir George Turner, has ex-
shall endeavour to make the best consti- plained. So far from feeling that, I deemed
tution that we can.
We have submitted it my duty a day or two ago to speak
our proposal. I venture to think that that very emphatically as to the dangers of the
which was carried the other day is the position which we are about to find our-
best, looking at it. under all the circum- selves in—and I thought in doing so
stances. My hon. friends will make such that I acquitted myself of a duty to this
proposals as they think right for making Convention, because it would be a thousand
it still more effective, and in the mean- pities if we in this Convention did not fully
time I am sure that all of us will only be too exchange our opinions upon vital matters
ready to listen as we have done with great such as these--nothing would be more
instruction to such arguments as my hon. agreeable to me, nothing more easy, than
friend, Mr. Beakin, addressed to us from to indulge in a number of pleasant obser-
his point of view. I do not propose to
vations which would excite complete har-
deal now with the dual referendum or mony, and probably lead to the general
with the national referendum. The dual conviction that I was a prince of good
referendum I confess I do not like. I fellows in federal matters. But, in taking
think it is an abnormal provision alto-. up such an attitude upon a crucial matter
gether. There are reasons against it, as of this sort, I should betray the Conven-
there are reasons against the national re- tion and my own colony. I should be ask-
ferendum. Of course one point of objec. ing the Convention to take up an attitude
tion does not exist with regard to the dual which I feel would not be accepted by the
referendum which, in the estimation of people whom I represent, hence my anxiety
those who come from the less populous.. to impress my views upon this Convention.
states, applies to the national referendum. I was very pleased indeed to listen to the
I think we are now at really the most speech of my right hon. and learned friend,
critical point in the construction of this Sir George Turner, upon the matter. We
constitution; we all desire to see it so all know the power of his acute intellect,
framed that it shall be an enduring founda- and what pleased me about my right hon.
tion for the indissoluble community that friend's speech was that he seemed prepared
we propose to create under it; and I hope to bow now to a more liberal solution of this
myself that whatever plan is adopted, it matter, judging from the observations which
will be received even by those who may
he has addressed to this Committee. Ishould
834
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
be prepared for very much stronger argu- the larger populations, would not be satis-
ments from my hon, friend if he was not in fied with any constitution which did not
that happy frame of mind. So far as I am in every event safeguard the rights of the
concerned, I have made it very obvious to majority of the commonwealth to rule-if
the Convention, sitting both in Adelaide we took up that position, I admit that we
and in Sydney, that the only point on might be safely censured from their point
which I become obstinate is the point of view, as I honestly think they are
when I believe that the Convention is censurable from our point of view.
getting on a track which will lead to
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
disaster. I am prepared to trust federa-
That is the very thing you are advocating!
tion in the largest possible way ; but I
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: What?
cannot get beyond what I believe are the
limits of moderation, still less can I get
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
beyond the limits which will be supported
That you should always have the power to
rule!
by the people of this country. Now, it
seems to me very clear that my hon. friends The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No. So
who represent the smaller populations, and far, seeing the steadiness and determina-
who have shown such a resolute determin- tion with which my hon. friends have
ation to safeguard their powers in the determined that a minority should rule, I
constitution, cannot be at all surprised have ventured to put in a word or two in
being conscientious themselves if the same
the interests of the majority. I quite agree
anxiety is shown by those who represent that if we were to endeavour to override
the larger populations to see whether the the interests of the smaller state by some
balance of the constitution is a fair one so rough-and-ready method which would se-
far as they are concerned. And we can- cure the preponderence of the larger popula-
not forget, of course, that as we stand tion, I admit that weshould be exposed fairly
at present the discrepancy is so serious to the same criticism from the other side.
between the different colonies that unless Now, I want to see if we possibly can dis-
we do hit upon some golden mean with- cover some sort of solution of this difficulty
out absolutely giving up the smaller popu- which will not be exposed to the fault that
lations to the power of the larger we can it leaves the smaller states entirely at the
never come to a satisfactory conclusion by mercy of the larger, and I am equally
giving up the interests of the larger to those anxious that we shall arrive at a solution
of the smaller populations. We really are which will not leave the larger at the
in that dilemma, andwemust face it plainly. mercy of the smaller. There is our trouble.
My hon, friends who represent the smaller If my hon. friends from the smaller states
states being unable to suggest anything had their way in this constitution, a state
better than what the hon. and learned of things would arise in which, no matter
member, Mr. Symon, has moved, practi- how overwhelming the majority on the
cally come to the conclusion that it is im- national vote, it would be in the power of
possible to discover any solution of the a comparatively small minority to set aside
difficulty which will be satisfactory to them for ever the voice of that absolute majority.
if it in any event exposes the smaller popu- Coming down to figures, we will suppose
lations to any danger of being overcome that there was a mass vote, representing
by the numerical majority derived from 2,000,000 or more in the federal population.
the larger states. If we took up a similar The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
position and said that we, as representing TL would be all in accord, I suppose !
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
835
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Since absolutely unable to say a word for it. I
my hon. friend declines to allow me to get think my hon. friends who differ so strongly
an explanation from him, I hope he will with me will bear with me.
allow me to proceed without interruption. An Hon. MEMBER : Suggest something !
Suppose that a mass vote representing over
2,000,000 of the people affirms one line of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I intend
policy in legislation for this federal body.
on this occasion to see whether I cannot
in some way or other suggest something
It is quite possible, under things as they
which will enable me at any rate to see a
are proposed at present, that a majority of
an inner circle of population, representing
solution of the matter, which' will enable
me to go into the districts of this country
not 2,000,000 but 600,000 people could
and support the constitution. I quite feel
absolutely and finally not only block the
the force of the criticism which was levelled
voice of the 2,000,000, but by their power
of saying “no”, to every proposition :
at me with reference to the speech I made
emanating from those representing the
a day or two ago. I quite admit that we
are bound as far as we can to find some
2,000,000, would produce such a state of
solution of these difficulties which we are
deadlock that, perhaps, for the salvation
compelled at the same time to point out.
of the federation, the voice of the enormous
Now, before I endeavour to do that, I think
majority would have to be set aside and
I ought to show in what respects the solu-
affairs adjusted to the will of the small
tion which has been adopted by the Con-
minority. That sort of federation no sane
vention fails to satisfy those conditions.
people in New South Wales will accept.
The Committee has adopted the proposal
Mr. TRENWITH : Or anywhere else!
of the hon, and learned member, Mr.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Or, I
Symon--and it is quite a concession as
should think, anywhere else. That being
usual—which provides that when repre-
the case, we must bend our best energies
sentatives of the people as a commonwealth
to see if we cannot relieve this constitution
wish to pass certain legislation which is
from the odium, from the destructive criti-
not agreeable to the gentlemen who will
cism to which it will be exposed if it is put
compose the senate under a widely differ-
in that shape before the people of this
ent franchise, then the first thing which shall
country. I am sure that hon, members
follow shall be a dissolution of the house
will see that it is infinitely better that
of representatives.
that sort of criticism should be heard in
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : Where is the
this chamber before the work is done than
difference in the franchise ?
that it should be made with destructive
effect after the work is done. So far
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The ex-
and so long as I represent the people of
pression was wrong, but my hon. friends
this country in this federal matter, I de know, I think, precisely what I mean.
cline to hand over the prospects of federa- The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : No, I do
tion to men who are bent on destroying not!
them. I am anxious, if possible, to see The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I will
this constitution assume a shape that I tell my hon. friend. A sort of arrange-
can go forth into the country and to the ment in the constitution under which six
districts of the country loyally and honestly gentlemen, representing 150,000 souls, will
supporting it. And hon. members cannot have as much power in dealing with the
expect me to do that if the constitution money and legislation of the common-
is left in such a shape that I find myself wealth as six gentlemen representing
836
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
cept it.
1,300,000. I am indebted to my hon. mocracy, in which the brake is so strong
friend for his correction. It is not a fair that it can always arrest the progress of
political exchange, as far as the senate is the state coach without supplying any-
concerned, without some sort of balance thing which will enable those who are re-
in another part of the constitution. sponsible for its progress to adjust it so
An Hon. MEMBER :
that it can advance.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I have The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : Why did you
accepted it because I see no federation bring us here?
without it; and, having accepted it, I want The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well, I
to endeavour, in other parts of the bill, to am sure I do not know. I do not know
put the constitution in such a shape that what brought the laon. member here; I
the people of this colony will also ac-
did not. What I desire is that whilst
That is my desire in the re- there should be a strong break in the
marks I am making now. With reference
second chamber, which can always pre-
to the senate, unless some alteration is vent the will of the representatives of the
made, you cannot commend it to the com- people from acting at once as it likes-
mon-sense and justice of the 1,300,000 that there should be in this document
people of this country, that, in dealing, something, not in the interests of this or
we will say, with the finances of the com- that party, but in the interests of the
monwealth, six gentlemen, representing whole people, in the interests of the whole
150,000 persons, should have precisely the concern, which will prevent the constitu-
same power
tion we are framing from being defective
An Hon. MEMBER : Nothing of the in some vital respect.
sort !
Mr. HIGGINS : Does the right hon:
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I quite gentleman wish to make the brake weaker?
admit it is not so in the house of repre- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do not
sentatives; but I have sufficient know-
mind how strong the brake is, so long as
ledge of the working of constitutions the man at the brake is in some sort of
to know that the supreme power in the responsibility which will reconcile the man
second chamber, which is not liable to on the box with the man who is using the
the same constituency, which is not liable brake. As long as the driver could use the
to the same risks of dissolution, at the brake there would be some sense in the
same time is practically an immovable management of the vehicle. But if one
authority, that it is a comparatively thank- man has all the trouble of the driving, and
less task to have the responsibility of driv- the other man can put on the brake when-
ing the state coach when a passenger inside ever he likes, and is strong enough to
can always apply the brake. That is really stop the coach whenever he likes, then we
the position we are in. We are given, get a sort of machine and a sort of pro-
apparently, a democratic chamber on the
gress for which it is scarcely worth while
broadest possible basis. We are given a putting our hands into our pockets. I
grand stage coach with “democracy
" democracy” would remind the Convention that its own
painted all over it, but those who give us deliberate vote has affirmed that state-
this state coach are determined that the ment. There was a time when provision
man on the box shall always be a safe con- for deadlocks was ridiculed. I was (x-
servative, and that the man who has the posed to the keenest satire once, years ago,
brake shall always be a safe conservative. for advocating a cure for deadlocks. I
I am not prepared for that sort of de- will be frank. Many of my criticisms of
$
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. ·837
the bill have disappeared in the light of ing of these things in practice than my
better judgment and greater experience ; two hon. friends. There are no men
but this is the one criticism which I have whose convictions are more sincere. More
felt all through, and still feel was a just than that, they are absolutely impartial and
one; and the position I took up in that cold blooded. When we find keen, strong,
one respect--if only in that one respect- sensible business men, whose judgment is
was justified the other day by a large reflected all over Australia, fighting so
majority of the Convention. The propo desperately hard against any concession to
sition was solemnly put to the Convention what is called the will of the majority
the other day, “Shall there be a provision
The Hon. S. FRASER : Oh no!
for deadlocks, or shall there not,” and
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The will
there was a large majority in favour of
as expressed by the representatives of the
the provision.
people. Of course, there are a number of
An HON. MEMBER: Of two to one !
gentlemen who always think they are ex-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Yes, of
pressing the will of the majority, in their
two to one. By a majority of two to one we
better moments, by going against them at
have agreed that there must be in this con-
stitution something which will enable us
all times; but in politics we cannot have
to look upon the machine as one which
these saviours of society ; we have to go
will get out of a deadlock, if such a thing
to the ballot-box. As I say, the keenness
-it might never occur-unfortunately
with which this thing is fought by men of.
happens.
sense and discrimination shows that there:
The Hon. S. FRASER: We have given
is a good deal in it.
you a lot more than "something”!
The Hon. S. FRASER : No doubt!
Mr. SOLOMON : A great many voted for
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Exactly.
that on the ground of expediency, and not
The Hon. S. FRASER : I do not dispute
of necessity ?
that!
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I voted
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I agree
for equal representation on the ground of
with
ту
hon. friend that there is a great
expediency; but without some adjustment deal in it that we, as representing the
in the constitution to prevent what might larger populations, have to watch.
follow from such a concession, I would
The Hon. S. FRASER: We represent the;
never have dreamt of voting for it. But larger populations !
I voted for it with my eyes open; I did
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: We!
not get up and tell the Convention I was
The Hon. S. FRASER : Sir Williamı Zeal
doing a wondrous and virtuous thing. I
and myself !
said nothing, but I voted for it. I will The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I will
stand by my vote, and I am prepared to
not venture to say what the opinions are
vindicate it all over the country when the
in the other colonies ; I can merely speak
time comes, if the situation which may of my own. Speaking entirely for th
arise out of that principle is provided for. people, one of whose representatives I ain
Hon. gentlemen of-I will not say ferocity I wish to point out that the tenacity with
- because that is foreign to natures like
which my hon. friends represent the senate
those of the hon. members, Mr. Fraser and view bas so impressed, and properly im-
Sir William Zeal, but gentlemen with calm, preesed, intelligent persons in this com
cold blooded temperaments, have shown munity, that they are naturally anxious
that there are no men in Australia who that the other view should be safeguarded
have got a keener perception of the bear- with equal faithfulness, equal ability, and
3 M
838
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
equal determination; and the other is this: Symon. The elections for the house of
That whilst we concede equal representa- representatives, if dissolved, would show
tion-as this is a federal union, and as the members of the senate precisely what.
union would be impossible without it—we public opinion was upon the question in
want to see some sort of provision which dispute.
will afford to the people of all sets of [The Chairman left the chair at 1 pom. The
opinion this satisfaction: that however
Committee resumed at % p.m.]
wrong the decision of the people, or house The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There
of representatives, or the senate, or alto- was a remark of the hon. and learned
gether may be, the machine is not to break member, Mr. Symon, in which he referred
down—that there is to be some finality.
to the dissolution of the house of represen-
The fatal defect of all these provisions is
tatives in order to bring it into conformity
that not one of them gives us finality.
with the will of the people. That expres-
You draw out a number of intolerable,
sion only throws a vivid light upon the
and, perhaps, expensive contrivances as a difficulties we should be thrown into by
remedy against deadlocks, not one of which the proposition before the Convention.
possesses the element of finality. I say What is the use of ascertaining the will
if there is to be no element of finality of the people unless that will is to have some
in your provisions against a deadlock the sort of effect? For instance, there are two
old bill is infinitely better. If a deadlock
Wills that have to be consulted under the
is to be left insoluble, the old bill of 1891 propositions before the house --the will of
is a far more sensible measure than this the people in one sense, meaning the com-
will be. If it is affirmed that the dead- monwealth, then the will of the people, as a
lock is not to be left indissoluble, and if different quantity altogether, forming the
We, by a resolution of two to one, have constituencies of the senate. For instance,
affirmed that there shall be a provision in the appeal to the people of the common-
against deadlocks, we have taken the re- wealth it might be clearly brought out
sponsibility of constructing a provision that, although there was a very large ma-
which will show some appearance, at any jority of the electors of the commonwealth
rate, of finality. That is the responsi- in favour of a certain course, and only a
bility we are under, and we have taken it small minority against that course, yet
upon ourselves. If hon. members had said that minority was in such localities that
“No, we will have no provision except the its power was equal to that of the majority;
common-sense of the two bodies working and there being a conflict between the
under conditions which will inevitably senate and the house of representatives,
bring about a solution in some way or whilst the house of representatives would
other," I could understand it. But inas- be re-formed in the light of the appeal to
much as we have gone beyond that, and the people of the commonwealth, the diffi-
have said, “There must be some provision culty would remain in that case more in-
against deadlocks," I say the provision tensified than before; because, while the
the Premier of Victoria, the provision of persons forming the majority in the house
the hon. member, Mr. Symon, every pro- of representatives would come back and
vision before the chamber except the pro- say, “We have won," those in the senate
vision of the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, is who took the opposite view would say,
lacking in finality, and therefore is worse 'No, we have won, because a majority of
than useless. Let us look at the matter our constituents have expressed themselves
as it is presented by the hon. member, Mr. in favour of the view we have taken.”
1
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
839
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
An Hon. MEMBER: That would be a fied form. We should have had the people
majority of the states !
twice saying to both houses, “You are
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Yes. My both right."
hon, friend will see that, on the different com- Mr. SYMON : The dual referendum is
position of the two houses, it might very
full of mischief !
well happen that, while taking the larger The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I do not
states together, there was a larger majority say that. It might be a good thing ; but
for one side of the.contest, yet, looking at the in this particular case, for this particular
smaller states, in a majority of those there object, it might leave us in a worse posi-
would be a majority in favour of the view tion than before. What is the use of ex-
of the senate, and that majority quite de- posing the people and the public business
cided enough to justify the senate in say- to this incessant contest, and this great
ing, on the lines of this constitution, "This expenditure over a matter, perhaps, affect-
appeal having been made in the case of the ing vitally the interests of the whole com-
house of representatives; it brings out the munity, if at the end of it all we are left
fact that, in the opinion of our consti- in a worse position than before? I say
tuents, we have been doing our duty in again, it would be infinitely better for us
resisting this measure." All the trouble to gire up any idea of solving deadlocks
would have left things precisely as they unless we are going to solve them. It is
were, only in a position of greater difficulty. no use playing at settling deadlocks. It
While the one house would be clamouring may be an amusement to us, but it would
and saying, "We have had an appeal to the be a loss and an injury to the people, and
people of the commonwealth, and it shows would prove a keen disappointment to the
the majority are for us," the members of the people. Very wisely, there is a provision
senate would say, "You talk as if there in the constitution that it shall not be
was no constitution. The constitution gives amended unless a majority of the states, as
us a certain position, and, looking at our well as a majority of the population concur.
position, the appeal has gone in ourfavour." That isa basic principleforan amendmentof
Well, that would not settle a deadlock. It the constitution; but, unfortunately, we are
would intensify it. Then we take the next put, by the other provisions of the constitui-
step. The two houses having been brought tion, in this position : that every conceiv-
into this state of uncompromising op-able proposition which may be submitted
position, the constituencies of both having to the commonwealth parliament has to
approved the opposite policy of both, what undergo exactly that same test. Unless it
have we before us? A prospect of repeat commands a majority of the people in one
ing exactly the same operation in, I will house, and a majority of the states in the
admit, a slightly different form. There other, no legislation is possible, and noth-
would again be an appeal to all the elec- ing can be done. Can any constitution
tors of the commonwealth, and the effect work when it is absolutely necessary, in
of that appeal would be that, after the vote the case of every forna of legislation, that
was taken, the votes would be sorted out there should be a concurring majority in
again under the dual referendum, and the both houses--not a concurring majority of
result might come out-national referen- ordinary chambers of legislature in one
dum, a large majority for the lower house; conmunity--that is comparatively simple
states referendum, a large majority for the --but a concurring majority under the
:senate. So that we should have to face two different sets of circumstances, and on
the deadlock again in a still more intensi- the two opposite and almost hostile quali-
6:0 Commonwealth of [20 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
fications ? Such a constitution would work whatever the state or commonwealth in-
under very great difficulties. I listened terest. So that, while it is quite true that
with great interest to a reply which was every state has an interest in everything,
made to my reference to the items which every state has not an interest as apart
are to form the subjects of legislation in from the people of the state ; the people of
the commonwealth. It was pointed out to the state, and their interests, can only fall
me by my hon, and learned friend, Mr. into the common lot and be decided by the
Barton, that every one of these may be general opinion of the whole commonwealth
said to involve a state interest. That does as represented in the house that frames
not carry us any further. It is impos- the tariff, or it cannot be represented at all.
sible to think of a state interest without It would be infinitely better, if we are to
the interest of the people in the state. have no provision against deadlocks, to let
The expression “state interest," as apart the upper house amend money bills, because
from the interest of every human being if some particular state, or two or three
in the state, is an expression I cannot states, representing only a small number
understand.
of the taxpayers, the persons interested,
An Hon. MEMBER: It means the same
have the power together to do that which
community!
prevents any tariff law from being enacted
becauseitdoes not satisfy them on oneortwo
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Exactly; isolated points, when shall we ever have a
it means the same community. It is no
tariff at all? This clashing of interests in
use wasting time to tell me that every
tariff matters must have an end; there
state community has an interest in every
must be a final arbiter, and if that arbiter
subject of state or commonwealth legisla-
is not in the house which has the power
tion. The question is not answered in
to amend, how can we find it in a house
that way. Every individual in every state
which has no power to amend ? It is of no
is in the commonwealth, and in the elec-
use talking about the house of representa-
torate of the commonwealth ; and his in-
tives being the arbiter, because if on some
terest as an individual in the state is ab-
aspect of the tariff a majority of the smaller
solutely protected in the same way as the
states are dissatisfied, they can prevent
interest of every other human being in the
any tariff from being constructed by sim-
commonwealth is protected. Take, for in-
ply saying, "No." That, to me, is an in-
stance, the tariff question. Can any one
tolerable state of things, from which I
fairly say that that question, with all its
shrink, and it brings us back to this : If
complexities, will ever be settled unless it
there is to be a solution of deadlocks; io
is settled on the one test the test of the
must be one which must lead to finality.
majority of the people of the common-
On this point we must all speak with great
wealth ?
diffidence, because the difficulties are very
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : The small colo-
great. While speaking earnestly, I do not
nies would not take it!
wish hon. members to think that I am
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Of putting forward anything I say with any
course, we cannot speak finally on a sub- great confidence. I do not say that the
ject of that sort. In a matter of taxation proposal, which I put forward as one to
and trade, the interest of every person in be considered, will certainly be satisfac-
every state is only the interest of every tory; but it will have this improvement
person in the commonwealth. He is not upon all the others, that it will be final.
two individuals; he is the same individual, The Hon. J. H. Howe: Oh!
6
[The Right IIon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
841
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
· Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The The matter is one which I do feel very
hon. member may laugh; but surely my strongly about ; but I think there should
hon, friend, as a good business man, would be power in the executive to dissolve
himself, in any important business mat- one or either house, or both of the houses.
ter, especially one which affected the in- That is the first step, which is, I think,
terests of his own clients—the people- a highly proper step, so that the people of
say that the matter was not quite one to the country may have a voice in any mat-
be laughed at if it were left in a state of ter which forms the subject of dispute be-
uncertainty. This is particularly and es- tween the two houses. After that appeal
pecially the case in matters affecting the to the different constituencies—those of
tariff of the country, because in that case,
the senate and those of the house of repre-
if you have no finality you have no pros- sentatives--if it be then impossible to get
perity, no certainty. Surely it is not neces- over the difficulty, I can find no other
sary to point out to all who are inter- conceivable method which will give us
ested in business communities that a long finality than some provision under which
fight over a tariff, absolute uncertainty as the two houses would be made to sit.
to what a tariff is going to be, is a serious together and settle it.. But these are mat-
evil. And this will be one of the first ters of detail. I must deal first with the
questions to which the commonwealth will main point. Now, I find that this sitting
have to address itself. The public require and voting together by legislative bodies is .
in such a matter that there should be by no means so uncommon a practice as it
finality, and they expect us to make the at first seems to be. For instance, in France,
ņeasure of such a character that it will be under the reformed constitution, the two
satisfactory on some basis which is fair to houses sit together, although their numbers
all. I have been endeavouring to see as are very different, the upper house having
far as I can, by studying the constitutions 300 members, and the Chamber of Depu-
of other countries, how difficulties in those ties 584-much the quota that we have in
countries are met, and as the result of any this constitution, namely, two to one. It
study which I have been able to give to
is the law there that, even in so important
this matter, referring to those constitutions,
a matter as the revision of the Constitu-
and looking at the proposition before us tion of France, the change shall be effected
now, I have come back to the conviction in that way, the two houses sitting to-
which I expressed when I issued my ad-
gether, deliberating together, and voting
dress to the people of this country as a
together, in the most important question
of constitutional change.
candidate. I pointed out then all the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Can the hon
difficulties in this matter as far as I could
foresee them, and I endeavoured then to
gentleman give us an instance in which
that has been done in France ?
throw out for consideration a plan which
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It is
at any rate would have the merit of final-
comparatively a new constitution. It can-
ity. It is a plan which, although some
not be done at all, unless in each house
hon. members may be strongly opposed to there be a vote affirming the necessity for
it, may in the end, I think, be accepted as a
constitutional change. That is a condition
solution of the difficulty, whatever the
precedent; but, on the two houses agree-
conditions may be. I do not object to ing that there shall be a change in the con-
a dissolution. I prefer, however, that the stitution, the question of what that change
power should be given to the executive shall be is decided by the two chambers
to be exercised simultaneously or not. sitting together.
842
Commonwealth of [20 Serr., 1897.] Australia Bill.
The Hon.' I. A. ISAACS : Called the
parallel. At present I am not insisting
national assembly!
on anything; I merely wish to men-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Let us tion the one or two instances which I
look at what is done in that
Very
mixed have come across where difficulties are
quantity of another country, the Austro- settled in this fashion. That is all I am
Hungarian Empire. We know that these putting before hon, members at present. In
federal difficulties exist there in greater Norway the two houses, if they disagree
force and complexity than under any con- over a bill, meet together.
stitution we have thought of here. We An Hon. MEMBER : Does that apply to
all know the complex elements of the Aus- Norway alone, or to Norway and Sweden?
tro-Hungarian Empire; and the fact that The Right Hon. G. H. REID: To Nor-
there are two different parliaments—the way separately from Sweden. In Belgium
Hungarian and the Austrian-shows how
there is a joint sitting of the two houses
difficult the problem has been in that in matters affecting the capacity of the
empire with its different races. There are monarch, the appointment of a regent, or
two sets of parliaments.
the guardianship of the heir presumptive
Mr. SYMON; And two executives ! during his minority. The two houses sit
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Two together in Belgium for purposes of that
executive governments, and all the diffi- kind. In Switzerland, while there can be
culties arising from difference of ráce and no alteration of the constitution, as with
creed and so on are solved in this way. us, except by a majority of the states, as
Well, they have to solve their federal well as a majority of the people, as hon.
difficulties. The two parliaments each members know, in that federation there is
send sixty delegates—twenty from the the freest possible opportunity given for a
upper house of each parliament and forty mass vote which decides all measures of
from the lower house. The 120 delegates legislation. I do not need to go into it-it
then sit and vote together, and decide mat- is much more ample than anything talked
ters affecting the empire in its larger sense
of here—but in effect that federation pre-
-war, finance, and so on. These questions serves the rights of the states by equal
are settled by a simple vote at this joint representation in the upper house; but, at
sitting. The decision of these two dele- the same time, matters of difficulty which
gations voting together binds the whole arise between the two chambers' or matters
empire. This is another case. where, when- of legislation are settled by what is known
ever there are great difficulties, the solu- as the mass referendum.
tion of sitting and voting together on the An Hon. MEMBER : Must not the law
part of two legislative bodies has been pass both houses ?
adopted.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No, the
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Does the people themselves can propose à law.
right hon. gentleman suggest that the Now take the United States. Look at the
senate and the house of representatives vast powers the President has under the
should send an equal number to the con- Constitution of the United States. The
ference, as is done by the two parliaments question of who is to be president is de-
in Austro-Hungary?
cided by a mass vote of the United States,
"The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No. The without reference to the rights of particu-
UWO cases are certainly not similar. There lar states. I quite recognise the difficulties
you have two great empires of independent of my hon. friends about a national refer-
existence. I do not think the cases are endum-I do not blind myself to their
.
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
843
j
[20 SEPT., 1897.Australia Bill.
]
)
difficulties at all - but, at the same time, houses, whether at once or eventually--the
if nothing better is proposed, if I, as a de- hon. and learned member Mr. Symon's
liberative unit of the Convention, have to amendment affirms that and having prac-
choose between these tangled propositions, tically agreed that there shall be a dissolu-
which lead us into greater difficulties than tion of one or both houses, if necessary, now
before, and do not solve anything, I shall the practical question before us who are
vote with my hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, with- anxious to remove these difficulties is, "Are
out the slightest hesitation; because, al- we to stop there— to be satisfied with that?”
though his proposition may be unsatisfac- I
say "No." Those of us who say “No."
tory to representatives of the smaller states, have to choose and say what is to follow. I
it has the one cardinal virtue which we say with the greatest respect, that to follo:W
must expect from any proposal under the it with a dual referendum is--perhaps. I
head of solving deadlocks—that is, it gives used too strong language just now, and
us some chance of settlement.
ought to withdraw those expressions, but
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS :
they very roughly represented my views on.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I sympa- such a problem-I think that it would.
thise with my hon. friend's difficulties; bring the referendum into the most utter
but I shall have to vote for that proposal disrepute all through the world, so lame
against the other propositions, for the and inspotent a process would it be.
one reason that it does solve a deadlock,
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs: They have that
Whether it is or is not satisfactory to some in Switzerland, and it has not brought it
members of the Convention, as a solution
into disrepute there!
of this difficulty, it is infinitely better than
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It is an
the dual referendum. I look upon the dual
effective referendum there—it is a mass
referendum as the greatest monstrosity-
referendum.
the most utter absurdity. I can under-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No!
stand a reference to the people of the com-
monwealth ; I can understand a reference The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Not for a.
to the people of the states as people of the change of the constitution. It is the
states; but how can I understand this double referendum then !
double-tongued sort of appeal to the people
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I am
of the commonwealth, the effect of which
not talking about that point. I began by
would be that you might get the answer admitting that on matters affecting the con-
“yes” from 2,500,000, and you might get stitution, a majority of the states as well
the answer
” from 600,000, and the
as a majority of the people is necessary.
» of the 600,000 would be as powerful We have that provided for in the constitu-
in the dispute as the
yes“ of the
tion now.
2,500,000
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The right hon.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is it not the
gentleman is not right. Since July, 1891,
same with a double dissolution?
they have had a referendum to the people of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Not if
the states on matters of ordinary federal
it is followed by something. This is just
legislation.
the position we are in. I do not recommend
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: And it has
a joint sitting of the two houses as the
most perfect course, or even as atall perfect.
worked exceedingly well!
But, driven as we are, I think that we have The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I ha70
practically come to a dissolution of both not had time to wade through the mass of
1
66 no
no
844
Australici Bill.
Commonwealth of..
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
literature on this subject; but I have seen would settle it. We should know where
a list of the appeals to the Swiss electors we were, and we should save expense.
by referendum--a mass appeal.
Why should we put 2,000,000 people to
- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I read the the trouble and expense of recording their
extract the other day !
votes which, under easily imagined circum-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I accept stances, might not be worth the paper they
my hon. and learned friend's statement. were written upon ?
My hon, friend is a close student of his- The Hon. J. H. HOWE: You forget the
tory, and I may be wrong in that, respect. overwhelming power of the house of
But that does not at all touch, the trend
representatives !
of my observations. I am leaving all these
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : If
unsatisfactory illustrations—they are all "No" can be said to them, they might as
unsatisfactory—and I am dealing with the
well sit down and give up the task of
thing as it is. I admit that the referendum attempting to legislate.
has the preliminary objection that it would
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: The hon. and
lead to enormous expense-even the best
learned gentleman knows better than that.
form of referendum would have a strong
Numbers will always rule !
objection on that score—and when I am
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: If that
asked to commit myself to a sort of refer-
is so, what is the use of making a fuss
endum which would go through the form
about this? It is a vague, ineffectual, at-
of settling the difficulty between the two
houses and would throw the people into
tempt to hold back the tide of public
opinion. You will only irritate it. You
confusion-compel them to go miles to
vote when the votes of 500,000 persons
will not do any good. I do not agree
with
my
hon. friend. He is a business man, and
because they happened to live in certain
he knows that if he gets the constitution
localities would outweigh the votes of
in the form in which it will be when we
2,000,000 because they happened to live
have a double dissolution and a dual refer-
more closely together-I say that such a
endum
sort of appeal by referendum, it seems to
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I am willing to
me, is not likely to give any sort of satis-
leave it to the people!
faction.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : It is consistent
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Then
with a federal constitution such as we are
the hon. member would accept a mass
referendum ?
framing!
The Hon, J. H. Howe: No!
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Does
the hon. gentleman call this dual referen- Tlie Right Hon. G. H. REID: Accord-
dum a federal referendum ?
ing to my hon. friend there seem to be two
The Hon. H. Dobson : Certainly !
kinds of people in the commonwealth, one
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well,
black and the other white.
would it not save a great deal of time, as
The Hon. J. H. Howe: I mean the re-
well as being a matter of fairness and presentatives of the people, in the two
political principle, if, instead of going houses of parliament. They will settleevery-
through the farce of asking the big popula- thing !
tions what their opinions were, there were The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Oh!
a quiet referenduin amongst those who the representatives of the people are the
really could decide the matter- a re- people. I never understood it in that sense
ferendum among the smaller states ? That before ; but I am very glad to think I am
6
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
845
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I
the people after all, though I nerer tell the task, or at any rate give up the idea
them so when I go up for election, and I that a double dissolution, and a double
do not think my hon. friend does. There referendum
is a slight difference between the people An Hon. MEMBER : Let us leave it, like
and their representatives, and we feel that other things, to the federal parliament !
when we are going before them. It is no The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is
use talking about the referendurn. What the old point that we have now got away
I say is this; if there is a question at from, and very properly so, because the
issue between the two houses over which balance of the constitution cannot be left
there has been a dissolution, the effect of to accident. No constitution will work well
which is to leave both houses as obstinate if there is not in it some broad principles
as ever, the hon. member must see that, which will enable adjustments to be made,
supposing there were five colonies in the not by intrigue but by constitutional
federation, if a referendum showed that in methods. This battle—and it is that which
two colonies 2,000,000 people were in makes it so serious a contest in my mind,
favour of a proposed change, and in the three if I have any knowledge of practical politics
other colonies a majority of 400,000 or -is as to whether, in the future necessities
500,000 against it, the senators represent of the commonwealth, great emergencies
ing the smaller colonies would be bound are to be dealt with constitutionally in the
in political honor and honesty to stand open, or privately by intriguo, stratagem,
their ground; and the result would be that, and underhand management. An immov-
instead of solving the difficulty, you would able senate must be victorious at last, and
have put every hon. member in the senate I earnestly submit that if we can find
in one immovable position, and every nothing better, in mercy to the people of
hon. member in the senate in another in- Australia let us adopt this simple expe-
movable position. I know what the result dient of allowing the two houses to appeal
of that would be, and so do other members to their constituents, and if after that
who are wise in their generation. In a they fail to agree, let us compel them to
great struggle, the immorable senate would come together and decide the matter as
always get the better of the movable house one body.
of representatives; and, instead of the com- The Hon. H. DOBSON: What majority
monwealth being governed by principle, it would the right hon. member allow to carry
would be governed by intrigue. Those who the bill ?
held executive power would, in order that The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Well,
the progress of legislation might not be im- let me get this provision inserted in the
peded, give way to the minority in a thou- constitution, and I will talk to you about
sand underhand ways, and the minority
that afterwards.
would rule. I do not object that minori- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
ties should interpose time for deliberation Australia) [2:36]: I feel sure that the
and reconsideration, so that every senti- house is indebted to the right hon. mem-
ment of fairness could be brought out; ber, Mr. Reid, for the remarkably fair
but if we stand here in this chamber, be- speech he has just made, and which has
fore the people, having solemnly affirmed convinced me that he has carefully con-
that the solution of deadlocks is neces- sidered the subject from a point of view
sary in this constitution, it is necessary to not altogether unfriendly to federation.
do one of two things : either to say that we I felt a little anxious when my very clever
cannot find a solution, and that we give up and talented friend, the hon, and learned
846
Australia Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[20 St.Pr., 1897.)
member, Mr. Deakin, paid me a few com- McMillan, says the very possibility of dead-
pliments this morning. I began to fear locks is a necessity of federation; and just
the Greeks very terribly when they were in proportion as you create this bogy and
becoming civil. I admit that, as a last destroy its possibility you weaken the cause
resource, I would make considerable con- you are guarding. “Deadlocks" is a mere
cessions of my views, and try to persuade term; what is meant is the difference be-
others to follow my lead, in order to tween two houses having equal rights, the
bring about federation ; but I am not ati absence of that agreement which we care-
all clear that the time has yet come for fully provide in ourconstitution mustoccur,
doing this.
for an agreement must occur before propo-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I will not com-
sals can become law. The very precautions
pliment the hon, member again!
which the wisdom of our ancestors bas.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : My suggested are tried to be made the subject.
hon. and learned friend's speech, which,
of terror, and are called names which
with the embellishments his taste and frighten the fearful. I agree with the hon.
fancy would naturally supply, followed member, Mr. McMillan, that the term can
very much the leader of the Daily Tele-
never be applied until the difficulty between
graph this morning, made me rather
the two houses approaches a calamity.
anxious than reassured, because, although
Until then there is no such thing as a dead-
he is at present content with a double
lock. When you reach such a condition
dissolution and a double referendum, he
that civil war is imminent, then it might,
did not say he would stop there; so that,
be well that you should have some remedy;
when we meet again—if we have the mis-
but anything short of such a possibility as
fortune not to finish our work during the
that ought not to deprive us of a proper
present session—there might be a proposal constitutional check.
that we should have a national referendum
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That would be
added, as a means of curing all disorders.
the time to use the provision, not to create
one!
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : I spoke about
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
that the other day at length, and I did not
agree with my hon. friend there. As far
want to repeat my remarks !
as the hon, member Mr. Symon's amend-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Is the
ment is concerned, I think it is rather a
hon, member still in favour of it?
pity that we did not at the present stage,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I would vote for
at all events, adhere very strongly to the
it, but I could not make the same appeal position which we took up before, that the
in its support. This is a compromise ! possibility of deadlock is the safeguard of
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Yes, the constitution. Between the proposition
we are to make a compromise, and get of my hon. friend and the proposition of
nothing out of it. That has been the game those who want the dual dissolution, I
all through, and I do not blame those who fancy experience will show there is no
are doing it if they think they are wise in practical distinction. At first sight, I
doing it, or if they think they will make admit I liked the notion of the dual dis-
us better friends by doing it. The hon. solution because it appeared on the face of
member, Mr. Symon, resisted the stand it to penalise the representatives in order
which I have taken throughout, that this to get the opinion of people on the ques-
provision for deadlocks is absolutely un- tion. But looking at it more closely I saw
necessary ; that, as the hon. member, Mr. it would work out in the same way under
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
847
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bint.
either of the proposals
, because there would we are acquainted and this federation I
be no dissolution of the representatives if decline to recognise at all. If the reason-
the proposal of my hon. and learned friend ing applied to both were the same I would
was carried out—that is to say, there never agree to this federation at all, because
would be a nominal dissolution. The
go- what are we doing? We all agree that in
vernment, as the Hon. Dr. Cockburn in- our internal governments we must have
terjected, would be always studying the two houses, two houses one of which must
wishes of the house of representatives, and have a longer tenure than the other, must
would take precious good care not to be not only be indissoluble, but must have a
premature in their dissolution of that qualification for the electorate behind it,
House. The result would be that their giving it greater strength and stability.
dissolution would be a mere name-Would There is no substantial body, although
have no substance, in fact. It would be there are many individuals, in any colony
mere expiry by effluxion of time of the in Australasia at the present time who
house of representatives, and then what would go for one house, or would support
would happen ? The government would
both houses being elected on practically
send the senate to their account.
the same franchise. Now we are throwing
Mr. Wise: We could guard against all that away, because we recognise that
that!
the circumstances are not analogous; be-
cause we think that there is a natural con-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
servatism in the states which will supply
know it is very easy to say we can guard
the conservatism which comes from the
against it!
qualification which you give a conservative
Mr. SYMON : All I sought by my amend body in the other constituencies. If we
ment was to affirm the principle, and I thought that the motives by which persons
intended to add something afterwards !
in the states would be actuated would be
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The the same as in our internal concerns, and
more you think about conditions the more that we should be making all Australasia
impossible they are, and the more difficult one colony under practically one house,
it is to formulate and explain them. I there might be two or three men here who
agree entirely with what fell from the
would agree to that; but there would not
Premier of New South Wales. I very be more, and I am not sure that there
humbly at previous times ventured to say
would be one.
the same thing. I say your double disso-
Mr. WISE : It would depend upon what
lution is a farce. I believe your double kind of colony you made. If you made it
referendum will be a farce or I would not New South Wales, all the members from
agree to it. I do not wish to be misunder- that colony would agree !
stood a bit. If I thought that by agreeing The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
to the double dissolution and the double was not referring to it from that point
referendum I would be frittering away the of view. If a proposal were made that
basis of a federal constitution I would be Australasia should be one colony with two
no party to it. But my hon, friend took houses, with the same qualification for
a different view, and we will have to leave electors, with varying tenures of office,
it. As far as my judgment is concerned but both liable to dissolution at the will
I am willing to take the risk. How it of the ministry, I do not believe there is
will work out it is very hard to say. The one colony in Australasia that would agree
similarity between institutions with which to it. Yet that is substantially what we
848
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
are now asked to do. That is the proposal of the text writers. I hope it will be a
underlying all these dealllock arguments, warning to my right hon. friend to in
and all these attempts that are being made future keep to one line, and that is the
to weaken the very essence of the federa- British Constitution.
tion we want to establish. Then we have The Right. Hon. G. H. REID: I am going
precedents brought from various places, to keep to this “Lyne”!
and varying arguments addressed to us by The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We
identically the same individuals from a are told that in Norway the two houses
diametrically different standpoint. The sit together, and that in Belgium they
Premier of New South Wales told us that sit together. And as for Switzerland, I
We were essentially English, that we should really think the Committee should pre-
follow what we are accustomed to, and sent me with a testimonial if I do not
ought not to go to foreign countries for refer to that country, because we have had
constitutions which arose from their own
its Constitution discussed at very great
surroundings and idosyncrasies, and which length.
we find great difficulty in assimilating to The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Tasmania is three
our own temperaments.
times the size of Switzerland, and more
: The Right Hon. G. H. REID: If you important !
give the governor-general power to add to
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I am
the senate I will agree with you!
very much obliged to my hon. and learned
friend for mentioning Tasmania: he always
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: My.
does help me.
Tasmania is a remarkable
hon. friend was on the question of the
instance of this policy. We talk of its
executive when he took that view very being impossible to work a government
strongly. Hon. members who are in the
under a British constitution with an upper
habit of saying that we must have under
house which has the right to amend money
this bill an executive established on the
bills. In Tasmania they do this. It is
lines of responsible government always do
true that the power has always been dis-
take that view. Having taken that view,
and having got their own way in it
, they puted, but nevertheless it is always exer-
cised. We have there an object lesson of a
want something else. They straight away
rush from dear old England, and ramble place which my hon. friend reminds me is
all over the Continent, taking precedents larger than the model country, in which
the constitution has been worked with the
in the most ruthless and reckless way to
end of insuring the perfect freedom of the
support an argument of a diametrically
people in it, and in which this fatal power
opposite character. To a man of feeble in-
—which they say none of the colonies
tellect, who likes to see one thing at a
would submit to--of the senate amending
time, these speeches become puzzling money bills has been in force for years, and
When my hon. friend told us of these pre-
with very little difficulty.
cedents from Norway, Belgium, Switzer-
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : They say we
land, and so on
must not do it again, but we do!
The Hon. S. FRASER : Most of them
The Hon. Sir: J. W. DOWNER: I
were wrong!
think we have had this matter pretty well
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : My book talked out before to-day, and if we are
is dated 1890 !
to fight it out on the true lines of federa-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: These tion, I shall stand by my previous vote,
things all vary according to the opinions and try to give a stronger vote to prevent
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
849
[20 SEPT., 1897. ]
Australici Bill.
even that means of settling deadlocks being sideration of the measure the tiine which
provided for. Consistency is generally was necessary for completing it. Still, I
what I am accused of. I stand by the recognise the imminence of the position,
words I used the other day, not before we It is a question of postponing, I suppose;
finally depart from here, but before the Con- if I thought it was not, I would certainly
vention finally breaks up. I am not satis- go against any postponement. I admit that
fied that those who ask for this now will it is a question of postponing or breaking
not ask for more in the future.
up the movement for some considerable
Mr. TRENWITH : What if they do? If time. Under these circumstances, what is
this will clear up the difficulty, refuse them the good of asking is for an interim ses-
all !
sion, for a sacrifice of both our intelligence
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That and our conscience in favour of something
is what Į propose to do with the per- we may think of even greater importance
mission of my friends. As far as I am than an interim session unless we know
concerned, I would refuse it. This is no whether more will not be asked for after-
time now for compromise.
This is a time wards. I have made up my mind to stand
for getting fresh offers which you do not by the amendment which has been moved
bind yourself to accept. No business man and carried at the present stage of the
would do such a thing. Even if my friends Convention. I repeat my regret that, in-
opposite bound themselves now that they stead of that amendment being moved and
would stand to this whatever happens, carried, the representatives of the colony
they could not do it. Still, we have the that require protection did not join with
Premier of New South Wales who disagrees me in resisting all means of curing dead-
with it, and we know, therefore, that what- locks, at all events, at the present stage of
ever we give at the present time more will the Convention.
be asked in the future. Under these cir- The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[2:56]:
cumstances, it seems to me that the only I need not say that I am just as ardent for
method we can adopt is to stand by the federation as any member of the Conven-
amendment ve carried.
tion. I realise that to my own colony and
Mr. LYNE : Does the hon, member think to the other colonies it will be of vast
it is wise to go on with it now in view of benefit. In a national sense, of course,
Queensland coming into the Convention, the benefits and facilities afforded to us
because it will all have to be done over cannot be overstated. But rather than
again?
agree to pass a constitution, which, in my
The Hon. Sir J.W.DOWNER: I think opinion, is fraught with serious and grave
it is a matter deeply to be regretted that dangers to the people—rather than see a
we are not able to finish the work of this federation that would jeopardise the liber-
Convention. I think it is a matter deeply ties of the people, I would see no federa-
to be regretted that, when we were burried tion. I make this remark with great re-
through the business in Adelaide in order gret. I am not going to go back on my
to enable a certain number of gentlemen vote. It is admitted in every country that
to go to England, with the understanding two houses are necessary for the good go-
that we were to meet in September and vernment of the people. I think it is gene-
finish the bill, and when we all came here rally admitted in every country on the face
under thatimpression, we were not informed of this earth that the bi-cameral system is
at the time that it was impossible that the absolutely necessary. We have stripped the
Victorian Ministry could devote to the con- senate of all powers that might endanger
850
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
the liberties of the people by this bill you give to the house of representatives.
which we have agreed to so far, and now If you agreed to give it similar power, per-
we are going to make the senate amenable haps I might agree to all you ask for ; but
to the dictation.of any unscrupulous govern- I say that you assume a position which
ment at their own time. For the sake of is not a fact. You assume that the senate
my argument I will use the words "un- has similar power to the house of repre-
scrupulous government."
sentatives, but that is a grossly extrava-
Mr. SYMON : It will not be unscrupu- gant statement to make. The upper house
lous !
has no power to initiate the spending of
The Hon. S. FRASER: Does my hon.
one shilling; it has no power to increase
friend, Mr. Holder, object to the word
expenditure by one shilling ; it has no
“ unscrupulous
power to throw out an appropriation bill
except by an absolute veto. It has no
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : From the op-
position point of view they are always by suggestion. It has no power to amend
power even to amend a tariff bill, except
unscrupulous !
a loan bill.
The Hon. S. FRASER: I greatly re-
An Hon. MEMBER : It has power to
spect my hon. friend's objection to the
word, and for the sake of my argument I
veto any bill!
will say a designing government.
The Hon. S. FRASER : It has only the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : They are all
bare power of saying “No” to an appro-
designing from the opposition point of
priation bill.
view!
Mr. LYNE: Or any other bill !
The Hon. S. FRASER: A designing
The Hon. S. FRASER : Of course any
government will select their own time for other bill. If you do not give it power to
an appeal to popular clamour, and my only veto any other bill, or to make amendments
objection to a concurrent dissolution is the in it, what is the use of an upper house?
fact, and only the fact, that I am afraid The senate, in my opinion, is shorn of all
that the deliberate judgment of the people its powers. Therefore, I fail to see why you
may not be given. I have no hesitation are so much afraid of its doings in respect
in agreeing to what I agreed to the other to its veto. I do not think there is any
day, the dissolution of the house of re- danger of the upper house interfering in
presentatives; and the opinion of the coun. regard to the regulation of trade, the rais-
try being then given I have not the least ing of money, post and telegraphs, military
objection to a dissolution of the senate, and naval defences, munitions of war, and
provided that they do not agree to the
I wish my right hon. and learned
measure passed by the house of representa- friend, Mr. Reid, was here. I would draw
tives. Of course it is said that that is the attention of the Committee to clause
penal. I say that the upper house is only 121 of the bill. Suppose it was proposed
there as a steadying machine. In every that the constitution should be amended
country on the face of the earth the upper under that clause, so as to give a national
house is only there to steady the political vote with regard to the navigation of the
machine.
Murray, the Darling, the Edwards, the
Mr. TRENWITH : Then why give it more Murrumbidgee, and other rivers in Aus-
power?
tralia, would the New South Wales repre-
The Hon. S. FRASER: You do not sentatives agree to the constitution being
give it one-tenth part of the power that so amended that South Australia or Vic-
:
SO on.
[The Hon. S. Fraser.
Commonwealth of
851
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
of three years.
toria could regulate the waters of the Dar- six years, and the house of representatives shall
ling, the Murrumbidgee, and the Edwards
be elected by the votes of the people for a term
rivers ?
Mr. TRENWITH : They should have their
I have gone further than that. - I was
fair voice in it!
elected on that basis.
The Hon. S. FRASER : It is quite on
Mr. TRENWITH : Not much !
the cards that if that question was sub-
The Hon. S. FRASER: I had many
mitted to a national vote New South Wales
thousands of votes to spare.
The hon.
would be outooted. South Australia would
mepaber knows it.
be very anxious to get control over the
Mr. TRENWITH : I did not mean it in
Murrumbidgee, Darling, and Edwards
that sense.
I
say
the hon. member was
waters, because they are close to their ter- not elected on that very much !
ritory, and all are navigable rivers. The The Hon. S. FRASER: I appealed to
Victorian people might also vote for it. the voters of the colony of Victoria on that
The Tasmanian people, having no interest basis, and I spoke at only two or three
in the matter, would vote either way; and centres.
the same with regard to Western Australia. Mr. TRENWITH: 'You would have had
New South Wales might find herself in
more votes if you had not appealed on
a dilemma if you do away with state that basis!
rights.
The Hon. S. FRASER : Probably I
An Hon. MEMBER : Quite right if she
might have had less. I say that I have
wanted to act unjustly with those waters !
gone further than that in the votes that I
The Hon. S. FRASER: I say that if
have given here. The other day I went
you do away with state rights, the Mur-
further. To cure deadlocks I went further
rumbidgee, the Darling, the Edwards, and
than I was justified in going. I have gone
other rivers may be controlled by the
deal further than my published address
federal parliament. There is no doubt
by agreeing to the dissolution of the house
about that. I only repeat that for the
of representatives, and, secondly, to the
edification of the New South Wales dele-
dissolution of the senate.
gates. I commenced from the first in
An Hon. MEMBER : Make the reform
favour of state rights, and there is not the
complete by "going the whole hog”!
remotest chance of federation without state
The Hon. S. FRASER : I would will-
rights. Therefore, what is the use of wasting
our time here, if we are to go back to the
ingly go as far as I could. As a matter
of conscientious principle, I have gone as
A B C of our education ? Some months
far as I can. I have been about twenty-
ago I issued an address to the people of
Victoria, and I advertised that address
five years in political life. Like my hon.
practically in all the papers of the colony, friend, Mr. McMillan, I have declined to
certainly in all the leading papers. I will
take office frequently. I have done so
read a part of it. In that address I lately. I say that if we are going to refer
said :
this matter to a national vote, then we
The federal parliament shall be composed of a
might just as well go home; we are only
senate elected by the vote of the ratepayers,
losing our time here in discussing it much
Remember, “ elected by the vote of the further, because, ás far as I can judge, we
are going more apart instead of approach-
ratepayers"
ing each other. I should like, of course,
or as proposed in the Commonwealth Bill by the
parliaments of the several states for the term :of to agree with others who are opposing me
852
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
if I could see my way; but as a matter of majority. A great deal of unnecessary
principle I cannot vote otherwise than as time will be expended upon it, and as a
I did the other day.
result we may not get very much nearer ia
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST solution than we should have done had we
(Western Australia) (3-9]: I feel myself gone on with our business in the usual way.
in some difficulty in addressing hon. mem- The discussion upon the matter has been
bers on this subject a second time. I allowed to be general, and I must take
should be sorry if hon. members should the same course which has been pursued
think that I am taking the action which by others in putting before hon. members
I am taking in this matter solely because the view I lold in regard to the inatter.
I represent one of the smaller populations We are asked practically to reverse the
of the Australian continent. I do not decision at which we arrived the other
act in this way because I represent one of day. We are asked to give up the opinions
the smaller states ; but because I desire we held, to change the votes we gave, and
that the senate that we are making should to show ourselves—I think I may use the
be a strong body, not only in our interests, expression—weak and vacillating. But we
but in the interest of every onein Australia. are asked to do inore than that. We are
I regret that the whole of the day should not only asked to show ourselves weak and
have been spent in discussing this matter. vacillating, but we are asked to take up an
I do not think for one moment that we shall undignified position, which I, for one, am
be able to throw much new light upon it, not prepared to do. I do not think it at
seeing that we have discussed it for two all probable that I shall change my opin-
days already. It seems to me an extra- ions as time goes on; and, notwithstand-
ordinary position to get into. A very un- ing that time works a good many changes,
usual course has been taken in the matter, which I freely admit, without a reason-
and I cannot help thinking that those who able interval I think it is unreasonable
are responsible for it have shown us a very to expect anyone who has given a de-
bad precedent and example. And I am liberate vote on an important matter, to
quite certain that the course which cer- change his opinion. I have no knowledge
tain hon. gentlemen have taken, and which as to what the views of other hon. mem-
we have not dissented from because they
I am not an election canvasser
seemed so very anxious about it, is not a or agent. I do not go about trying to find
course to which they would have assented out whether members have changed their
if the representatives of the smaller states opinions. Therefore, I have no knowledge
had happened to be in a minority. If, in as to whether any one will vote differ-
regard to the question of the power of the ently from the way he voted the other
senate to amend taxation bills—upon which day. All I can say is that if I find
question I voted in the minority—I had hon. members voting differently, I shall
almost immediately proposed to take the take care when the opportunity offers not
course which has been taken on this occa- to go tiger-hunting with them, as I fear
sion, I think I should have had very little they would leave me to the tiger. It has
support from those who were in the ma- been asked by the Premier of New South
jority. In fact, we have got into the wrong Wales, and by others, why, in a case of
groove altogether. Instead of going on difference between the two houses, the
with our business, we are rediscussing a house of representatives should be the first
question upon which many hon. gentlemen to be dissolved. That question bas been
are not willing to accept the verdict of the asked over and over again by those who
bers are.
1
[The Hon. S. Fraser.
Commonwealth of
853
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
really must or ought to have the solution there. There may have been friction to a
of it in their own minds. Under the con- small extent. If there had been any serious
stitution under which we live at the pre- friction I have no doubt the people would
sent time, there is no power for the dissolu- have taken means to remodel their consti-
tion of the upper house. The great differ- tution, but they have not done so. The
ence between the two houses under the fact that in Victoria the Legislative Coun-
constitutions with which we are acquainted cil is as popular to-day as is the Assembly,
is that one has the control of the executive shows, I think, that the people of that.
government and the other has not. That country are satisfied with the institutionis:
is the great difference between the two under which they live.
houses of legislature in these colonies, and Mr. TRENWITH : The general election
the great difference between the two houses did not show that!
we are asked to form under this constitu-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
tion; and we may depend upon it that Hon. members have decided, against niy
ministers who owe their existence to the wish, that there shall be a provision against
house of representatives will certainly con- deadlocks. Then the question arises -
sider their wishes before they consider the “What provision shall there be ??. The.
wishes of a senate which has no power to con- hon, member, Mr. Symon, has made a pro-
trol their existence. Everybody knows that position, which has been termed by the
I was opposed altogether to any provision hon. and learned member, Mr. Deakin,
for deadlocks. I hoped and felt that, under a concession. I think he called it a great
the constitution we are erecting, mutual concession, as coming from those who were
respect and a desire to carry on the busi- opposed to any provision being made. We
ness of the country would be sufficient, say that the provision exists now and is ex-
as it is at the present time in all these ercised now of dissolving the lower house.
colonies, for two houses to carry out the The ministries of the different colonies
duties intrusted to them without any undue have that power, and they have exercised
amount of friction. Of course there will it on many occasions. They exercised it
be some friction. If the two houses would in this colony not long ago, in order to
always work in accord, there would really show to the Upper House what the feeling
be no need of two houses at all. Still the of the country was, and, I believe, with
wisdom and patriotism of the British race good effect. That power should remain.
has always been sufficient in the old coun- In addition to that, if the Upper House
try and in many other parts of the world does not heed the views of the country,
to carry on government without undue as expressed by the house of representa-
friction.
tives, when returned fresh from the coun-
Mr. TRENWITH: In the old country they try_if it perseveres in a course adverse to
have the means of solving deadlocks ! the wishes of the house of representatives,
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: then it, too, in the wisdom and at the will of
That means is seldom taken advantage the Government, should also be sent to the
of.
country. That seems to mea great change--
An Hox. MEMBER : Because it is under- a great advance on things as they exist at
stood that the lower house must rule ! the present time. I know that in Western
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: Australia there is no provision whatever
At any rate there are no means where the against deadlocks.' The Upper House is
hon. member comes from, and for over absolutely supreme.
There is no means
twenty years there has been no friction of coercing it except by the effluxion of
i
3 N
854
Australia Bill.
Conmmonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1-897.]
time. Every two years one-third go out states. The right hon. member, Mr. Reid
for re-election. There is no other means made a proposal to us. We might have
whatever of coercing that body. Although expected that, having given the matter
difficulties occur, still the governmentof the some consideration, he would have brought
country is carried on. If it is possible in forward a scheme that would, at any rate,
these colonies to carry on the government have commended itself to us.
What was
without any provision for escaping from his scheme? He proposed that the two
deadlocks, surely this extra power given to houses should sit together and vote, the
the government to send the senate to the proportion between the two houses being
..country ought to go a great way to obviate as two to one. I have looked into the
any difficulty that is likely to arise. A great matter carefully, and I find that, though
deal has been made of the concession, as it he fears combination on the part of the
is called, of equal representation in the smaller states against the larger states, his
senate. For my own part, I would rather proposal would result in this way: If the
not have equal representation in the senate, two larger states combined against the
than have it given to us with one hand smaller ones, they would have about fifty-
and taken away from us with the other. I nine votes against thirty-three. If they
would much rather have proportional re- voted together as states, they would be
presentation in the senate, with equal able to completely coerce the smaller
power on the part of the senate over taxa- states.
tion, than have equal representation with The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Make it a
the position in which it is proposed to three-fifths majority, and you get a fair
place the senate. The Premier of New proportion !
South Wales drew a very pretty picture of The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
2,000,000 persons in the larger colonies I only mention this to show that what the
being coerced by 600,000 persons in the right hon, member fears so much in regard
smaller colonies. He seemed to think that to the smaller states, he does not seem to
the sole object of the 600,000 persons
fear when the larger states are in question.
would be to try to coerce the 2,000,000 Throughout all this discussion I cannot
persons. He did not look at the other help thinking that hon. members repre-
side of the picture. He forgot that the senting the larger colonies cannot forget
600,000 persons have interests, and have that they have been opposed for many
to live on this continent, as well as the years to an upper house. The representa-
2,000,000 persons—that the 600,000 might tives of the larger colonies, generally speak-
be altogether coerced by the 2,000,000. ing, come from lower houses, as we have
That, I suppose, was quite right. He was just been told, and they cannot forget that
thinking of a unified government rather the lower houses have been in controversy
than a federal constitution. As I have with the upper houses in the various colo-
said before in this Chamber, I have no nies. They seem to think that the senate
fear of the final result. I do not believe will be a body similar in all respects to
we shall find, even in deadlocks, states the upper house, which they do not like.
combining against states. The dispute will I do not think that will be the case. I
be on some question of policy, and prob- am in favour of the proposal we carried
ably we shall find the representatives of the other day. In all disputes time is the
the states voting, not together, but in essence of a solution. People are not likely
parties; they will be divided by other in- to settle disputes unless there is a consider-
terésts rather than by the interests of the able interval of time. In our daily inter-
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
855
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
- If
course with each other, unless some time roughly understands. As far as I am.con-
is given, we are not likely to settle dis- cerned, I am very anxious to try and work
putes which arise. I would ask hon. mem- amicably with hon. members in dealing
bers to consider what will happen under with these important matters. I have not,
the proposal for a dual dissolution. A perhaps, given way very readily in regard
measure will pass the lower house, we will to those matters that have been carried
say, without any difficulty, and it will go to against me, because they have not been
the upper house. In that chamber there is a in accord with my wishes. At the same
great discussion about it. The newspapers
time, I have been willing to accept the
favourable to the government will at once decision which has been arrived at, and
begin to threaten the upper house that, if make the best of it. But I think the time
they do not pass the measure, they will be has come when that inclination on my
dissolved. While they are considering the part will soon come to an end. If you
measure, a pistol will be held at their make the senate weak, as I think you will,
heads. Is that the sort of constitution we by providing means of coercing it, I do
want to create in this country? Is that not think I shall be able, at any rate, to
what we desire that the upper house recommend the acceptance of the constitu-
should be coerced at the beginning—that tion by the people of Western Australia.
it should be told, you do not pass this That may be a small matter now; but it
measure in the way that we have passed is the position which I am forced to takeup.
it, you will be dissolved”? They would I do not think it lies altogether in the
be threatened even before they had actu-
mouths of hon. members representing the
ally come to any decision, and great dis- larger states to say that they have in any
aster would result.
way given way—that we desired to give
Mr. HIGGINS : Is not the very same nothing, and they have been giving way all
threat held over the lower house continu- along. If we compare the constitution bill
ally?
in its present shape with the bill passed in
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: 1891, I think hon, members will see a great
The lower house knows well that, under deal of difference, a great change, even from
its constitution, it is subject to a dissolu- a democratic point of view. For instance,
tion. It is not altogether a matter in the the upper house is to be elected by the
hands of the governor-in-council. It is whole people, whereas it was proposed in
generally supposed that the governor exer- 1891 to have it elected by the houses of
cises some sort of constitutional right of his parliament. In fact all along the line we
own as to whether he will accept the ad- have been asked to give way. I admit
vice for a dissolution. But, be that as it freely that I have not given way very
may, the lower house knows that it is part willingly, because my firm belief is that
of its constitution, part of what it is accus- the stronger we make the senate the better
tomed to—that, if it gets out of touch on will it be for the constitution. For all
any great measure with the wishes of the that, we have had to give way, and I have
ministry, and if the electors have not had accepted the verdict of the majority upon
an opportunity of deciding with regard to these various points. I do not think I
that measure, its members may be sent need say more. I hope hon. members will
back to their constituents. Although I am
deal with the matter as quickly as they
sure that, under this constitution, it will I think we should be able by this
rarely occur, still, it is a constitutional time to make up our minds in regard to
position which every lower house tho- it. That which we do now is not final;
can.
856
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
we shall have to meet again, and in view men: If they desire that Western Aus-
of that circunstance I think some deci- tralia should take any part in framing a
sion might be soon arrived at. Although federation for Australia, let them allow
it has been done, without any illfeeling moderate counsels to prevail. We shall
whatever, we who represent Western Aus- have a hard task, perhaps as hard a task
tralia, have been twitted with voting to- as any of you who represent the larger
gether on all questions. That is not alto- colonies will have, in inducing our people
gether the case. We have not always to accept this bill, and to enter the federa-
voted together. On various occasions some tion, and unless some moderate counsels
of
my colleagues have not voted with me. prevail, and some scheme be finally adopted
The same statement would apply to some which we can recommend to the people as
extent to the representatives of the larger being just to all, I feel that that great feder-
colonies. We do not find them voting ation to which we have all been looking
in different ways very frequently. The forward will not come to pass for many
majority of them generally vote pretty years.
well together. After all it is only reason- The CHAIRMAN : It has been remarked
able for persons who come from the same that this discussion is irregular. No doubt
colony, whose interests are identical, who it is so, but then it must be remembered
desire to pull together as much as they can that the standing orders have been sus-
to stand by one another and vote together. pended, and that this Committee has re-
It has been said also that we in Western ceived authority from the Convention
Australia are somewhat indifferent to itself to rescind one of its resolutions.
federation, that we do not really intend to Under those circumstances I felt com-
come in. If that is so we are a very foolish pelled to allow the general question to be
people, because we have taken more trouble discussed.
than has anyone else to be represented The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
upon this Convention. Why should I have South Wales) [3.35]: I think it would
urged the legislature within three or four be a calamity if this Convention were to
days of my return from England to allow adjourn without having come to some de-
parliament to be prorogued in order that cision upon a point which has engaged our
ten representatives of the colony might be attention for so many days. The only
here at a time when their attendance was apology I make for addressing hon. mem-
required elsewhere ; why should I have bers this afternoon lies in the hope I have
urged that the whole business of the coun- that, by some amendments which have
try be upset by the course I suggested, been circulated among hon. members, an
unless I thought the country was really opportunity will be afforded of taking di-
anxious to take its part in the efforts which visions which will test the opinions of the
were made to form a federation? I deny Convention upon all the proposals which
altogether that the people of Western Aus- have been submitted. I gather that the
tralia are here for pleasure. It is alto- suggestion which emanated from the Pre-
gether against my own interests to be here. mier of this colony this afternoon is one
Both my duty and interests require my which is growing in favour with the Con-
presence elsewhere, and I can say with vention. It has this in its favour : that
truth that the sooner we complete this it is a proposal which insures finality.
business, and I and my colleagues can re- No proposal to deal with deadlocks would
turn to our homes, the better pleased we be acceptable to the people of this colony,
shall be. I ask only this of hon. gentle- or to the people of Australia, which
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
857.
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
left deadlocks intensified by the provisions sions made in the constitution to safeguard
which would have been brought into oper- rights supposed t:. be trampled under foot
ation. I regret very much that in this by the larger colonies would be without
debate the question has been considered avail. It will be seen that the rights of
almost entirely from the states' standpoint. the smaller states are inadequately safe-
I have never in the discussion of this guarded by the provisions of this bill; but
matter, or in the votes I have given con- I do not regard that aspect of the case at
sidered the state-rights question as the
all. Like the hon. member, Mr. Deakin,
predominant influence. The phase of the
I believe that the moment this common-
question which I have always regarded as wealth is established, it will be found
carrying conviction to my mind has been not that lines of geographical demarcation
the right of a majority under any consti- divide us—they cannot divide us when
tution to ultimately rule. I do not think we are one in heart, language, and feeling
that this proposition involves the question --but that we shall be divided by those
of state rights at all, but in the whole of matters of politics which now divide us
our discussions emphasis has been laid
in our various local concerns. We shall
markedly upon the way in which the vari- have conservatives and dernocrats, free-
ous proposals would affect the larger or traders and protectionists; there will be
smaller states. I will put one case which all those matters of politics which natur-
has been overlooked, and which might pos- ally divide the people of one race, speak-
sibly happen, and I would like the smallering one language, and possessing the same
states to consider this aspect of the matter. amount of reasoning power. What I fear
The enabling act provides that the consti- is that there may, possibly, be from time
tution shall be brought into operation after to time a refusal on the part of parlia-
a certain procedure. Three of the colonies ment to give effect to the will and wishes
having passed the necessary resolution, and of a large majority of the people. When
this constitution bill having been passed that occurs—and it will occur sooner or
by the Imperial Parliament upon the ad- later-it may not occur very frequently,
dress of those three parliaments, you might but it is a possibility that must be taken
have such a state of affairs as that Victoria, into account—when it does occur, the re-
New South Wales, and Tasmania would be sult will be a national calamity unless the
federated. The parliaments of those three constitution provides some elastic machi-
colonies might pass the necessary address nery to meet such an emergency, possibly
to the Crown for a federation. Where, then, by letting erolution take effect, rather
would be the safeguard to the small state than force a revolution by having too rigid
of Tasmania? What would be the use of her a constitution. I am lost in admiration of
having six representatives in the senate to a great manyhon.members who hold totally
be outvoted by the twelve representatives different views from mine. The hon. and
from the larger colonies ? Has that aspect learned members, Mr. Symon and Sir John
of the case ever presented itself to hon. Downer, have been stalwart in their ad-
members who have been so stalwart in hesion to their principles, and have refused
their advocacy of the senate as a body to to allow a safety-valve provision to be in-
uphold the rights of the smaller states? serted in the constitution. I respect and
It may, possibly, happen under a federa- honor them for their opinion, and I have
tion that the states having the balance of listened to their arguments with a great
power would not be the smaller but would amount of admiration. I will only say in
be the larger states, and all those provi- regard to those hon. and learned members
858
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
that I would rather see the Convention -the patience and common-sense which
ended by a clear test-some distinct line are enthusiastically eulogised by hon. mem-
of cleavage--than I would see a compro- bers here, and by a large number of the
mise of such a character that nobody politicians in various portions of the colo-
would be at all satisfied with it. If we nies. I am surprised, indeed, to hear so
have a compromise of such a character many hon, members who speak of being
that it is a sacrifice of liberty on all sides, satisfied to trust to the common sense of
we shall have a constitution which will the people-to always abide by popular
not have any enthusiastic supporters, but opinion---say that there is a decided objec-
critics on every hand, who will direct a tion to allowing the people to express their
deadly criticism at it; and, without enthu- opinion in their own way and by their own
siastic supporters, and with criticism of methods, and assert that we should always
that kind, the constitution will be in a take their opinion through some repre-
very bad plight indeed. We have been sentative. If we are going to attach any
asked to insert in this constitution a pro- importance to public opinion and to the
vision as a safety-valve. Many of the pro- common-sense of the people, it is wise,
visions offered to us are mere pitfalls, when an emergency does occur, and it is
much more to be feared than the dangers very hard to discern what that opinion is
of deadlocks, and I have no hesitation in from the representatives, to let the people
characterising the proposition that has themselves have their say, so that they can
already been carried, and some others. speak for themselves better than their re-
wbich we have been invited to consider, as presentatives have spoken for them. I
offering a stone to people who are asking may say at once that I see very little pos-
for bread. We have been asked, and shall sibility of this Convention carrying a vote
be asked later on by our Victorian friends, in favour of the mass referendum. I hope
to follow the double dissolution by the there is no possibility of the Convention
dual referendum. May I say at once that carrying a vote in favour of the dual re-
if you are going to múzzle the people by your ferendum, because it will only be an insult
constitution, it is dangerous to take that to the intelligence of the people, if we
muzzle off just for a few short days while offer them that which practically does
the election is on, and after the election is
more than perpetuate the evil of a dead-
over to put the muzzleon again. It amounts lock—which flcuts the people by offering
to this : If you allow 2,000,000 people to them something which is totally antagon-
know that, when they possess the will and istic to that which they require—by offering
the wish, the constitution does not give them an instrument by which the minority
them the way to have their desires and may again outvote the majority and so take
their wills put into law against 500,000 the deadlock from inside the walls of parlia-
people, you are muzzling the popular voice, ment into the homes of the people and to
and you may depend upon it that if there the ballot-boxes at the hustings. A referen-
is any manhood in the English race, you dum of that character should have no place
having disclosed the power of that multi- whatever inourconstitution. I would rather
tude, and having also disclosed their power- have no referendum at all than one of that
lessness under the constitution, you will do kind, and I hope that the hon. and learned
one of those things which produces revolu- member, Mr. Symon, and those other hon.
tion, and if revolution does not take place, members who have been so stalwart in
it will simply be on account of the prover- their advocacy against the safety-valve
bial patience and common-sense of our race provision, will not in any way modify their
מן
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
859
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ever.
views so as to accept as a compromise that as one constituency, where organisation.
which will be more dangerous to the cause can have the best effect, you will have all.
of federation than any proposal made in the states captured by one or other organi-
the bill. Until we test the matter by a sation. The consequence will be that
practical vote I shall continue to advocate where there is a wave of popular impulse
the referendum: But I wish to point out- on any matter that excites the people, the
that what we have to consider is not senate is the house, that will first, most
merely the possibility of a deadlock arising assuredly, most keenly, feel that wave of
from the obstructive action of the senate; popular impulse. Therefore, it is just as.
we must, in all fairness, consider that it well for the conservative members of the
is possible for either house so to obstruct Convention and there are conservative
the work of legislation as to cause a dead- members of it-to have regard for that.
lock. I am not in favour of any instru- aspect of the case; and it may be well to
ment wbich is to be directed entirely at have a check of some sort, not merely on the
the senate. I go with those who say that, senate, but to have a mutual check on the
if you do construct this house, having de- house of representatives as well as on the
fined its powers in the constitution, it is senate.
senate. I can put a case which will com-
an utterly improper thing to attempt to mend itself to the minds of hon. mem-
weaken the senate by any machinery what- bers. This constitution gives power to the
What I propose to do is to have a federal parliament to deal with all ques-
machine which would equally weaken—if tions of currency or coinage and banking
weakness is to be an element in the pro- legislation. We may, at a very early period
position at all either the senate or the in our existence, have the question of bi-
house of representatives; that it shall be a metallism introduced. We have already
two-edged weapon, one which will strike our silver state-we have one or two silver
equally at the house of representatives as at states—and the question of the value of
the senate. I say advisedly. that reflection silver may very soon become an important
teaches me that it is not a proper forcast factor in federal politics.
factor in federal politics. We may have
of the future, and that the right hon. gen- that question brought up as a states ques-
tleman, Sir John Forrest, and other hon. tion. The senate has the power of origi-
members here, especially. Mr. McMillan, nating legislation on a matter of that kind
are utterly in error in supposing that the -it is not one of the forbidden subjects-
senate is going to be the conservative therefore we may have legislation intro-
body of the constitution. I have always duced from time to time in the senate in
held the opinion that the senate will, regard to the money-value of silver, in re-
in actual operation, be found to be the gard to our currency and coinage, and we
radical body, not, perhaps, after the first may have that legislation blocked time
election, but ere long. It stands to reason after time in the house of representatives.
that when the people of a colony or state The senate may claim that they represent
as a whole elect ten members—when you public opinion, and that the popular will
ask the people to vote in battalions—that is not finding expression in the treatment
party, whatever it may be, which has the which their proposed law meets with in
best organisation is the one that will carry the house of representatives.
the whole of the states; and the chances The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: They
are that, under this constitution, the radical could do nothing in such a case !
chamber, erelong, will be the senate. Elected The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: It
by one man one vote, by the whole colony would be a wise thing, in such a case,
860
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
that a deadlock beginning in the senate the other, with no voting power and no
and carried on in the house of represen- power to make any compromise unless it
tatives should be met by a provision is one agreed upon unanimously, or prac-
applying equally to the house of represen- tically unanimously. So that the machin-
tatives, when it was the obstructive body, ery which may be called into operation
as to the senate, when it was obstructive. -the ordinary standing orders of parlia-
Every proposal of this character must be ment—will be inadequate to cope with
of a mutual character, not directed at one a question of this kind. We have a
chamber, but at either chamber as it from proposal before us to adopt the Nor-
time to time stops the progress of legisla- wegian system of joining the two houses.
tion. A proposition of this character is I am only prepared to accept that provi-
one which should receive support. The sion on the distinct understanding which
next proposal is that there may be a joint was conveyed to my mind by conversa-
dissolution of the two houses. If a state tion with hon. members, and by listening
question be involved—and that is the point to the debate here, that a large majority
which carries so many votes for or against would be against the carrying of the mass
the proposal-take my hon, and learned referendum. That being so, I must be
friends, Mr. Symon and Sir John Downer, prepared to take the best course I can,
for instance—you may be satisfied that a and I think it is no invasion of the rights
dissolution of the senate will produce no of parliament to ask these two chambers,
good whatsoever, because the men who elected practically on the same basis of
stand up most for the rights of the states one man one vote, to meet together and
they represent are the men who will have attempt to settle their differences, and to
earned the gratitude of their constituents provide that, if the estates of the realm
and who may be most certain of being cannot by ordinary intercourse and argu-
returned. You willtherefore have the dead- ment settle their differences, there shall be
lock continued and intensified; but you a vote of the people sufficiently large to
will not have finality. We must be pre-insure the representation of the majority
pared to go further than that, and the pro- of the state interests taken, and that that
posal I wish to advance is that after we vote shall bring about finality.
reach the stage when there has been a dis-
Mr. LYNE : But does not the hon. mem-
solution of both houses of parliament, if the
ber include the mass referendum in his
proposed law be again refused concurrence proposal ?
in the obstructive chamber within thirty
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I
days after it has been received by that hope hon. members will understand me.
chamber, there shall be a full conference I am determined, so far as I can carry the
of the two houses of parliament. It seems matter to an issue, to have a vote in this
to me that we are not giving parliamen- chamber upon the subject of the mass
tary institutions fair play if we do not referendum. I do not believe in that com-
exhaust all the means available for bring- promise which gives up matters before you
ing the two chambers together, and, by have tested the opinions of those with
reasonable conference and voting, attempt whon you are working. No one would
to end the deadlock. It is no use to say respect me if I halted at any step short of
that the parliamentary machinery pro- getting a final decision from the body in
vides for conferences. We know that such which I sit. It is, therefore, my
, intention
conferences are merely assemblies of ten to divide the Committec at some stage
men chosen from one house and ten from upon the question of the mass referendum.
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of
861
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
If I get it I shall be pleasantly surprised, receive the royal assent; that is, that the
and I ain sure that the people of this colony minority, although outvoted in the con-
will be agreeable to taking it. I propose ference, shall have the right to claim a
•that in this full conference a two-thirds referendum to veto the bill if they have
majority of those present and voting shall the people behind them. So, if a two-
be necessary and sufficient to pass a pro- thirds majority cannot be obtained in
posed law with or without amendment, the conference, an absolute majority shall
and that thereupon it shall be presented have the right to petition the governor-
to the governor-general for the royal general to send the proposed law to the
consent. I provide in resolutions 6 and people to express their will upon it. These
7
proposals are in a very tangled condition ;
Mr. SYMON: The hon. member does not but as soon as the Committee reach a
want resolutions 6 and 7 now !
stage when we can have these proposals
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : My submitted, I will propose them. They
hon. and learned friend does not want have this virtue : that every proposition
them ; but until the Convention tells me submitted to the Convention can be tested
by standing on the right and the left what
upon them by an amendment. The Tas-
it wants, I am going to press forward manian proposal, which I regard as a re-
this proposal. Like my hon. and learned markable concession, coming from so small
friend, I am a reasonable man, and, if I a community, can be tested in this way.
cannot get all I want, I am prepared to The Victorian proposal, of having a dual
take the best I can get for the people of referendum instead of a mass referendum,
the country. But I am not prepared to go can also be tested, and so can the proposal
before the people and to say that I aban- to have a simultaneous double dissolution,
doned any principle to which I was instead of a successive dissolution. I hope
entitled before I have been defeated upon that we shall not conclude our labours
it. With regard to the referendum, I after so lengthy a discussion on these mat-
have no doubt that if my hon. friend, Mr. ters without coming to some resolution
McMillan, was here, I could show him which will give the people of the country
that even his vote might be given for the an opportunity during the interim which
principle. I do not regard the referendum must elapse between now and our next
merely as an instrument to say when a meeting-an opportunity equally with our-
law shall pass. I regard it also as an selves-of considering the work which we
instrument to say when a law shall not have done, and of analysing it. I hope
pass.
That is how the referendum is used that with these remarks I have not tended
in Switzerland, and so here I propose that to weary the House ; but I thought it was
it should be used to prevent the passing of only right, having a proposition of this
laws against the wishes of the majority of character to make, which would bring our
the people as well as to aid the passing of proceedings to a close with something defi-
laws which are in accord with the will of the nitely done, that I should offer these re-
majority. Therefore, I propose that after marks in explanation of the proposal I have
the conference has finished its labour, and a to submit.
two-thirds majority has passed the neces- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)[4.1]:
sary resolution affirming the bill, it shall I think it is right to say briefly that the
be lawful for the minority to petition the proposal that the two houses should sit
governor-general for a referendum to ascer- together is, in my opinion, so much waste
tain whether the law should or should not of time. It is quite true that in France
862
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
to say :
there is a provision in the Constitution to subjects which the deputies in separate session
that the two houses may sit together in
would never have agreed to bring before the
joint assembly.
certain cases.
Mr. GLYNN: They can only deal with.
Mr. GLYNN : Is not that the case only matters which they have already decided
with constitutional amendments?
in their own houses to take up. That
Tbe. Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Yes. But makes a great difference !
France is not a federation, and there is no The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: That is an.
question of equal representation there.
other objection. It is no provision for
The whole provision has been condemned settling deadlocks unless the two houses.
by a writer who has been quoted already, choose to meet together. What we want
that is Dr. Burgess. His observations are to provide is some means of settling dead-
very clear in & chapter on the organisa- locks when the two houses will not agree.
tion of the state in the French Constitu- What would this amount to ļ It amounts
tion. He disposes of the criticisms of one to a suggestion that wipes out the small
writer, whom he mentions, and he goes on states in some cases absolutely, and it
wipes out some of the provisions which we
There are but 300 senators to 573 deputies. have laboriously endeavoured to put in
This difference alone would enable the deputies
the constitution, most notably the pro-
to overpower the Senators in National Assembly,
and force upon them constitutional revision in
vision as to money bills. As to how the
regard to subjects which they in separate assem- thing would work out, I ask hon. members
bly would never have consented to bring before to consider for a moment. If the proposi-
the joint assembly. The fact is that when the
tion is that a mere majority of the houses
constituent Convention ordained the Constitu-
tion of 1875–6 the Legitimists, Orleanists, and
sitting together is to prevail, I should like
Bonapartists made up together the majority in to see the representatives of the small
that body. They constructed the Senate so states who would agree to it. If it is to
as to make it the representative of royalty as
be anything more than a majority of the
against republicanism, and they meant to fur-
nish the Senate with the power to prevent the
houses sitting together, I should like to
deputies from revising the Constitution at their know how this is a proposal which will
will.
enable the majority of the population to
Are we going to make provision to enable enforce its own will ? If it is a proposal
the senate to prevent the assembly from
that is not to enable the majority to carry
doing as they like with the affairs of the out its own will, as the Premier of New
nation ?
South Wales said ought to be provided, it
It is true that the republicans are now in a
leaves deadlocks just as possible as they
majority in the senate, but the senate is still far will be under any other system.
more conservative in its republicanism than the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No!
Chamber of Deputies, and, therefore, a conflict
may still arise between the two bodies concern-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Let me point
ing the fundamental principles of the organic out why. If you are to have six colonies
law. In the second place, it is conceivable that with six senators for each colony, and if
if the two chambers were composed of the same
number of members, still the majority in the
you are to have a quota of 2 to 1, which I
national assembly might not represent the ma-
may tell hon. members will never be agreed
jorities in the two chambers taken separately. to, with this provision in, you will have a
Yea, it is even conceivable that a practically minimum of seventy-two members in the
solid senate, if supported by a respectable house of representatives and thirty-six in
minority of the deputies, might overcome the
majority of the deputies in national assembly
the senate. Sixty-two will represent the
and force revision of the Constitution in regard. majority, and if it is going to be a ques-
!
Commonwealth of
863
[20 SEPT., 1897]
Australia Bill.
on which
tion which the dual referendum will not verge. There was nothing we were so pro
settle; if it is going to be a state question nounced against in our campaign among the
you will have the two large states. electors of Victoria than this proposal of the
against the other four small states, you two houses sitting together. I have left
must expect a block vote in the two houses out of sight altogether for the present the
whether voting separately or jointly. If possibility of conservative and liberal ques-
you get a block vote of that kind you will tions arising. We have, in our colony, an
never get a proper majority, and unless extraordinary position, some people say-
you provide that an absolute majority is to my mind it is remarkably ordinary.
to prevail you will have no satisfactory We have a Legislative Council and a Legis-
means of settling the deadlock. You will lative Assembly, and, if there were a pro-
tell the large colonies, “You may have a posal made there for the two houses to sit
joint sitting of the two houses, but you will together, it would be scouted in an in-
still be thwarted."
stant. We should have an almost incon-
Mr. GLYNN: If two-thirds is the ma- siderable minority in the Assembly being
jority!
able to ally themselves with practically
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is a
the bulk vote of the Legislative Council,
negation of the principle that the larger and the majority of the people's represen-
populations should prevail.
tatives in the popular chamber would be
out-voted at once.
Mr. WISE: Should they prevail ?
Mir. HIGGINS : Your upper house is based
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: If not, the
on property; but there will be no property
dual referendum is the proper remedy.
qualification here !
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : No doubt, The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There may be
but members will not agree to it!
no property qualification. But we do not
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Let us con- know how this is going to work out. We
sider what is the proposal of the hon. mem-
do not know whether the one elector-
ber. My opinion is definite and clear- ate is going to give us conservative or
that, unless you have the quota of 2 to 1, liberal representation. But if there was
the representatives of the small states will anything as to which the Premier, the
not consent to the houses sitting together. Chief Secretary, and myself pronounced
If you have the two houses sitting to- ourselves more definitely than another, it
gether, it is absolutely hopeless to main- was on this single proposition which is now
tain the quota provision. I can speak urged by the Premier of New South Wales,
confidently of Victoria, and I say that it and by the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers.
will not be agreed to there that the quota As far as I can judge, it is simply wasting
should remain as it is; and, judging from time to endeavour to carry that proposi-
à very able and unmistakable article in tion. We have stated what we think is
the Sydney Daily Telegraph, New South the easiest course to adopt. The dual
Wales will speak in the same voice. This referendum is admitted on all hands to
extraordinary provision of 2 to 1 cannot afford to the small states
be allowed to remain in the constitution Mr. HIGGINS : The Premier of New South
scarcely under any circumstances, and cer- Wales said it would be a farce !
tainly not with this so-called Norwegian The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: It is not a farce.
scheme wedged into the constitution also. It is an appeal from the representatives of
I wish to be perfectly clear and frank. the people when they have come to such a
My right hon. leader has gone to the very position of variance that they can proceed
864
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 Sept., 1897.
no further, and then we have a right to to a money bill; the suggestion is re-
go to the people and say to them, “Will you jected; the senate then refuses to pass the
maintain this state of collision?” I have bill.
no doubt whatever that the people in their Mr. HIGGINS : It is not proposed to
good sense and wisdom will find a means to
apply the joint conferences to the cases
extricate themselves from it. If it is such a
suggested !
question that they cannot agree, that the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: My hon.
smaller states cannot fall into line with friend, if he waits a moment, will see that
the larger, for my part, I am willing to
I am right, and will see how it works out.
allow the matter to remain in abeyance,
In the first place, the senate has the power
because I admit that in such a case, under
of suggesting an amendment; the house of
the constitution as we now have it, you
representatives refuses to carry the sugges-
cannot fairly ask the smaller states to give
tion out; the senate rejects the bill, and a
way. But if we are going to bring the two
dissolution takes place; then the senate is
houses together, we have not only the
called to a joint sitting with the house of
difficulties I have just spoken of, but this
representatives to determine whether the
further difficulty: we allow the senate to
bill shall pass or shall be rejected or shall
come into the determination of questions
pass with amendments.
relating to finance. Now, there has been
Mr. HIGGINS : No!
nothing more difficult in the Victorian
Assembly than to stand by, as far as we
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: My hon.
friend has not read the proposal.
can, the provisions of the compromise with
regard to finance. We do not stand in this Mr. HIGGINS : The proposal here is not
proposal by them all. I endeavoured in as to finance bills !
vain to persuade the Legislative Assembly The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is as to
to maintain the clause allowing the senate everything. I can understand that the
to make suggestionsinstead of amendments. smaller states would be most particular as
I failed there. They voted in a majority to these finance questions. But if you
against me. We have carried it here. take it as to finance questions, these are
But do hon. members entertain the slight- the subjects we may have most difficult
est doubt for an instant that the Victorian collisions about. However, the thing pre-
people would reject any proposal which sents such terrible difficulty on all sides
would allow the senate to come to the deci- that I think it right to be frank with my
sion of questions relating to finance, except hon. friends in this Convention, and to say
to the extent of rejection?
that, if they want to take the shortest
Mr. HIGGINS: It is not proposed !
course of raising difficulties, it is to carry
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: It is proposed.
a proposal that, if carried, means, in any
event, the disappearance of the quota. . If
Mr. HIGGINS: No!
it means the disappearance of the quota, it
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: It is proposed leaves the representation of the house of
distinctly that if they cannot agree the
representatives to grow with the population,
two houses are to meet together.
and ultimately to swamp the senate. If it
Mr. HIGGINS :
does not, it means absolutely the rejection
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : My hon. of the proposal. I put it to my hon.friends
friend does not do justice to his own per- whether they will not do what was done
spicacity. He sees perfectly plainly that before, either take the double dissolution
the senate sends down a suggestion as
or the dual referendum with or without
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
865
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the double dissolution, or else put us in residuum, if it is a question that concerns
the position of voting for the national state rights as such, I admit at once that
referendum.
that is a thing which should not be forced
Mr. Symon: Is the hon. member pre- on the smaller states by the larger popu-
pared to take the dual referendum without lations. But if we are to be told that we
the dissolution of the senate?
are not to have even that much, if we are
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Certainly. to be told that the senate is to force itself
We have advocated the dual referendum into the consideration of these other ques-
as a provision against deadlocks. We pro- tions, to insist upon sitting with the house
posed that from the very first, and when of representatives, and still to have no
it was put to us by some hon. members provision that the majority of the two
that parliamentary institutions required houses shall prevail, as is the case in
that there should be something between France, if I remember rightly; and if we
the deadlock and the referendum, we re- are to be told also that there is to be no
luctantly consented to that. We have not security for settling deadlocks, even in
asked for the double dissolution to be put that case, I say we are asked to give up a
in between the two. We met the small great deal more than we were ever called
states fairly.
upon to give up. We are asked to con-
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Is the hon. mem- cede a matter we pledged ourselves abso-
ber willing to accept that if we accept the lutely, against, and I see no prospect what-
other?
ever of carrying it.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Certainly. · The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South
My right hon. friend Sir George Turner's Australia) [4:18]: With the hands of the
amendment now standing on the notice- clock pointing to the hour when tbis Cor.-
paper speaks of dual referendum, and of
vention must adjourn, it will be a mistake
that only. I would like to bring the atten-
to delay hon. members by any further re-
tion of my hon. and learned friend, Mr. marks than are necessary to state plainly
Symon, to one very important matter. 'In
the position which I take. From the first
the Constitutional Committee, in Adelaide, I have been an advocate of the scheme
I submitted a series of proposals which
proposed by my hon. and learned friend,
now stand exactly in the form in which
Mr. Isaacs, for the dual referendum; but
the South Australian Assembly has passed it appears to me that no hon. member who
them. In then I provided that, in certain has followed the debates during the last
cases of deadlock, there should be either a
two sittings can have come to any other
dissolution or a referendum of the kind I
conclusion than that the dual referendumi
have mentioned. I saw afterwards that that
will not be accepted, at any rate, by New
might not be fair to thesmaller states—that
South Wales.
it might put into the hands of the executive
An Hon, MEMBER : Yes, it will !
of the day the power to dissolve the senate,
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: We have
and in my further proposals I struck that
out, because I wanted to stand fairly and
the clearest expression of opinion from
the leader of the Government that it wil
properly with regard to equal representa-
not.
tion and with regard to the smaller states,
and then our proposal was that we should
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It will be
have a dual referendum. To my mind, accepted in Victoria !
that would settle nineteen-twentieths of The Hon. J. H. GORDON: We have
all the questions that might arise. In the the clearest expression of opinion from the
j
866
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
right hon. gentleman, Mr. Reid, who is the The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The .hon.
leader of the Government here, and we member has always been very logical and
have the clearest expression of opinion very fair. With regard to the quota, as a
from the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, who is basic principle, it must stand. I think that
the leader of the Opposition here, and the suggestion which has been made is one
everybody who reads the influential news- which will meet the views of the majority
papers of Sydney, all of us who have been of the Convention. It is a practical, com-
mixing with the people of Sydney during mon-sense way out of this difficulty, in-
the last ten days must have come to the 'volving the subsidence of opinion all round,
same conclusion, that the dual referendum a compromise on all sides, and the preserv-
will not be accepted by New South Wales. ing of the working of the constitution by
It is of no good to engage in a war of wits practical methods. It is quite clear, on the
or a war of wills if we see that no practical one hand, that the national referendum
result is to come from these fights. So that will not be accepted by the smaller states,
I am going to be a pervert from the scheme and it is equally clear that the dual refer-
of my hon. friend opposite, not because I endum will not be accepted by the larger
do not still think it is the best thing, but states.
because I think it is one to which this Con- An Hon. MEMBER:
vention, at any rate, will not agree.
The Hon. J.. H. GORDON: One can
The Hon. 1. A. ISAACS: The hon. mem- only take the opinion which has been ex-
ber might have told us so a day or two ago. pressed by hon. members and by the public.
It might have saved a lot of time if he The suggestion of the hon. member, Mr.
had.
Carruthers, meets the difficulty splendidly,
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The pro- and it has the advantage of being fairer, I
posal of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, think, to both houses than the suggestion of
was not then before the Convention. Again, the hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon,
I suppose one may be pardoned for leaving because his proposal referred only to legis-
his moorings in a storm like this if he can lation initiated in the house of representa-
find a better anchorage. I think the pro- tives, and has no correlative application to
posal of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, legislation initiated in the senate. By this
is one which solves the difficulty practically proposal the senate would have the same
--not the best solution, by any means, but rights as the house of representatives with
the best which this Convention will accept. regard to legislation which, having been
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : You do not initiated in the senate, may be blocked in
adhere to the quota principle !
the house of representatives. To that ex-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : The quota tent it clearly strengthens the position of
principle must stand ; that is basic. the senate. This proposal also has the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There is no advantage of cheapness. The referendum
hope of that. I can assure the hon. mem- would be immensely costly ; but here is
ber!
a simple method of obtaining the expres-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I was a sion of the will of the people by a fair
little surprised when I found my hon. majority of representatives. If no clear and
friend, for a time, the ardent champion of certain sound, as far as the will of the
the small states when he was championing people is concerned, can be gathered from
this proposal.
two-thirds of both houses sitting together,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I occupied the then, as suggested by the hon. and learned
ground which I had taken up all along ! member, Mr. Isaacs, the bill may well re-
[The Hon. J. H. Gordon.
Commonwealth of
867
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
main in abeyance so as to allow the popular stance, the house of representatives, which may
mind to be educated up to the point of
be in the right, should be penalised without at
the same time penalising the other house.
passing it, or to recede from the proposi-
tion if it is undesirable. It is clear on all
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : As a sole
hands that, both with regard to practic- remedy for deadlocks !
ability, and as a vid media between con- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I assure
flicting expressions of opinion-with re- the hon. member that if he looks at the
gard to its economy, with regard to its speech he will see that Sir George Turner
fairness to both houses — this proposal strongly objected to one house being dis-
should meet with the approval of the large solved without the other being dissolved
majority of hon, members.
at the same time.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is an utter
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is quite
impossibility ; they will never consent to consistent !
it. Take the press of this city!
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The hon. (South Australia) [4.25]: I hope that if
member referred to the press of Melbourne! the right hon. member, Sir George Turner,
The CHAIRMAN: I would ask hon. mem-
has expressed the opinion just quoted by
bers not to refer to press comments !
the right hon. and learned member, Mr.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Except Reid, he will stick to it, because I am in-
so far as they may be mentioned as a
clined to think that we shall be making a
part of public opinion I will not refer to grave mistake if, in a matter of this sort,
any particular paper.
But it is compe-
we free the senate from the responsibilities
tent, I presume, to refer to the opinions of
to its electors to which we subject the
the press as representing the opinions of members of the house of representatives.
the public. I am not going to detain the
I have been prepared in connection with
Convention. I suggest that when the hon.
federation to recognise the necessity for
member, Mr. Carruthers, moves his motion allaying the fears of the small states that
in detail, that he should strike out in sub-
their interest will not be properly safe-
section in the words "and the senate," guarded. With this object I have been a
leaving the executive to dissolve only the willing party to the creation of the senate,
house of representatives. With that ex-
and I am prepared to give that senate
ception, I shall vote for the proposal. I every power which is necessary for the
shall support the proposal made now,
protection of state interests, but I am not
inclusive of sub-section v.
prepared to go further. Certainly I am
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I should
not prepared to put the senate in this posi-
like to draw the attention of the Attorney-
tion--that it can with immunity throw
General of Victoria to the speech delivered permanent obstacles in the way of the
by the Right Hon. Sir George Turner, who accomplishment of the popular wish with-
was not in the chamber when the hon.
out the slightest responsibility to the people
member quoted him as not being in favour
who sent them there, and without the risk
of the dissolution of the senate. The right of being properly punished as a responsible
hon. member, Sir George Turner, on Fri-
house ought to be punished by the verdict of
day, spoke very strongly against one house
the constituencies on the question at issue.
being dissolved without the other, and Something has been said about the disad-
went on in this way:
vantages to which the senate might be
I cannotosee my way to ask the Convention to
subject by a provision of this description.
support a constitution in which, in the first in- One eloquent representative drew a very
1
868 Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897. ] Australia Bill.
touching picture of the state of subjection house of representatives to their constitu-
to which a weapon of this sort wielded in encies without going themselves? Surely
the hands of an opposite party would natur- there is no reason for a thing of that sort.
'ally reduce the party which was threat- What an advantage it puts in the hands
ened. But what is the position as we find of the senate! Is it likely to lead to a
it to-day? What is the position in view reasonable arrangement, the senate know-
of the amendment that has been adopted ing perfectly well that, for the purpose of
at the suggestion of Mr. Symon? It is extorting terms to which they are by no
this : that in discussing a matter of this means entitled, they have this terrible
sort the senate can rest upon their oars weapon, which they can wield over the
utterly disregarding the force of the argu- heads of the house of representatives ?
ments advanced by members of the house Surely it would be much more fair, surely
of representatives, and tell them plainly it would lead to a more reasonable agree-
that they will not listen to reason unless ment in matters upon which concession
that house goes to its constituents and should be made mutually, that the two
comes back armed with a fresh mandate parties should discuss this question subject
from the people. Then the senate will not to the same responsibilities, and if they
he in a position to be punished for their cannot agree, both to be sent to the country
misinterpretation of the views of their con- whom they each claim to represent.
stituents. After all this is done, they can
Mr. HIGGINS : Each to face the same
hark back and agree to some compromise music!
which they ought to have agreed to in the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
first instance. Look what would be the To adopt the expression of the hon. mem-
result to the house of representatives. The ber, Mr. Higgins, they should each face
country has been put to an expense which the same inusic. There is no doubt that
might have been avoided. Members of the quarrels of this sort will be infrequent. I
house of representatives have been put to think, seeing the way we have provided for
an expense and inconvenience from which the creation of these two houses—respon-
they ought to have been free. They come sible alike to the same constituencies-that
back, practically told by the country that we have very little reason to fear that they
they are right, and yet nothing whatever is will often occur. Still when they do occur
to be done to the senate, and they are to they may be of the greatest importance,
be encouraged in a repetition of the same and seeing that each house, from its consti-
course with impunity. It seems to me that, tution, is supposed to give effect to the will
in the natural order of things, seeing the of the same constituency, although voting
greater frequency with which the house in different groups, surely in the question
of representatives goes to the country as which will be at issue as to which is faith-
a whole, the presumption should be in fully representing the view of the constitu-
favour of the house of representatives, in encies, both should be treated alike, and
a serious matter of this sort—of course, asked to obtain a mandate from the people
nothing but a serious matter would be made whom they profess to represent. It is pos-
the subject of a deadlock-more accurately sible that, under such circumstances, the
representing the country and the feeling of verdict of the country might be practically
the constituencies, which both houses are “a plague o' both your houses.” There is no
equally supposed to represent, than the doubt whatever that the country would be
senate itself. Why, then, should the senate disposed—and it seems to me properly dis-
be put in a position to send members of the disposed—to resent an unnecessary quarrel
(
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
869
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
involving the state in an expenditure of the as to which House you are going to send seem
character to which I have referred. If you to me, to some extent, objectionable; and
expose only one house to this responsibility, although the hon. member, Mr. McMillan,
you arm it with a weapon which will be has put it that there may be a warmth of
used to the disadvantage of the other house feeling which might well be avoided when
and to the injury of the community; and I two houses appeal to the constituencies,
trust, under those circumstances, no such at the same time it strikes me that, in the
provision will be obtained. I do not find heat and clash of popular opinion, both
fault with the amendment which has been sides being fairly put by those who are
carried at the instance of the hon. mem- contesting the constituencies, you are more
ber, Mr. Symon, except to this extent : likely to get a true verdict as regards the
that I take it that it is the final provision popular will than are you under any other
which he intends to propose in this matter. circumstances-than if one house went at
Mr. SYMON : No!
one time, and the other house went at
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
another. Provide for the simultaneous
I am glad indeed to hear that it is not. dissolution, and it seems to me you will
It was, I understand, suggested at the
have this : Not only will there be a great
time it was moved, as an adequate pro-
disinclination on the part of both parties
vision for meeting the mischief of a dead- to bring anything of the sort about, but
lock. I trust that we shall add to it át if they are plunged into it, at least both
least a further provision. Taken as it is sides of the case will be fairly put to it,
it recognises this position : That when and
you will get a fair verdict which will
there has been a dissolution of the house enable you to form a correct conclusion
of representatives in the middle of the as to who is really in the right and who
struggle, and the new house reaffirms the is really in the wrong.
I am afraid that
position which was taken by the dissolved those who have already gained the victory
"house of representatives, there shall be a will not willingly listen to anything in the
power on the part of the executive to send shape of an abandonment of the amend-
the senate to its constituencies. I think ment which they have already carried. I
that is following out the line of argument would not press for anything of the sort;
which was used by the hon. member, Mr. but I would ask for an addition in the way
McMillan, who attempted to draw some of conferring on the executive a power of
line to define the house which should be sending the two chambers to their constitu-
sent to its constituencies by considering encies, subject to certain safeguards, which
which was last from the country. I have will prevent this power from being used
suggested that, in the natural order of without due consideration. I will not sug-
things, the house of representatives will be gest all the details of these safeguards ;
the body last from the country; but it is they can be fixed after we agree to the
possible to be otherwise. But possibly that principle. It seems to me, however, that
object might be met by giving to the execu- we ought to provide for the carrying of the
tive in a case of that sort the power to send subject of the deadlock in the house of re-
to the country the chamber in respect of presentatives, or it might be in the senate,
which there was the least interval as regards in two consecutive sessions, with a certain
the senate from a periodical election, or, interval. Where you find, under those cir-
as regards the house of representatives, cumstances, that you cannot get the houses
from a general election. No doubt there to agree, then I put it, as they substanti-
is some reason in that, but arbitrary rules ally represent or are established for the
3 o
870
Australia. Bill:
Commonwealth of
[20- SEPT., 1897.]
course.
purpose of representing the same constitu- solution at the will of the executive, is
encies, only in different groups-either they there any representative who thinks that
are doing so and will be strengthened in that will be lightly exercised, and punish-
their position by an appeal to the constitu- nient extended, not only to those who are
encies, or they are not doing so, and ought supporting the opposition view in the house
not to be permitted to continue in that of representatives or in the senate, but
Here I may say this : something punishment wantonly inflicted on minis-
has been said as regards the parties into terial supportersI am sure representa-
which the federal parliament will resolve tives generally will see that it is impos-
itself. Something has been said—it may be sible to apprehend: any position of that
mistakenly—as to the parties into which sort. The power may, therefore, be safely
this Convention is resolving itself. I do not left to the executive to refer these mat-
believe, when we have the federal parlia- ters for the decision of the people in the
ment established, that we shall find parties knowledge that that power will be exer-
of small states against large states, or any-
cised with the utmost discretion, seeing
thing of that sort. We shall be liberals that it will affect alike ministerial sup-
and conservatives; it may be free-traders porters and ministerial foes. Then, sup-
and protectionists. Free-trade and pro- pose we have a dissolution of both houses,
tection seems to me to be a matter natural and by the verdict of the people of the
to be settled in the early stages of federal states the senate is justified, and by the
history, and will not permanently divide
verdict of the nation as a whole the wem-
the various parties as the other classes to bers of the house of representatives are
which I refer. But it strikes me that, in supported in the attitude they take up-
a matter of this sort, every liberal instinct what will be the position then? Some
compels us, who class ourselves under the have said. a national referendum,. others
category of liberals, to vote in favour of have advocated a dual. referendum. When
the popular control, not of one chamber I spoke on this matter first, I said I would
or the other, but of both chambers, and of be delighted if we could provide for a separ-
the solution by.an expression of the popularation of cases involving state interests and
will of any difference as to whether or not these having no such effect; the one in
these two chambers, owing their existence which a dual referendum might be necessi-
to the popular breath, on the same broad tated, and the other in which it could not.
franchise, on the matter of quarrel are or be justified-and I think we can, if weseri-
are not really representing the constituen- ously make the attempt. The great majority
cies which they profess to represent. I can of cases will not, to my mind, involve state
well understand that, either here or any- interests, and, therefore it would be well to,
where, a strong conservative feeling which generally provide for the solution of a dead-
seeks to justify the creation of a body de- lock, after a double dissolution, by a na
signed for permanently, checking, blocking, tional referendum. I think I expressed:m.y.-
and bafiling the popular. will, will strive self pretty clearly, on this point at an early
for the purpose of removing one or other stage of the debate: I am willing to submit
of those chambers from. the popular control, all these questions to a dual. referendum,
knowing full well that for conservatism to while, at the same time, I am not willing
achieve the control of one of those cham- to submit them all to a national referen-
bers, their end is:encompassed, because pro- dum. Take a question affecting the waters
gress is impossible without the consent of of the river Murray. That is a case in
both. With regard to a simultaneous dis- which state interests are likely to be par-
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
871
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ticularly involved. We have created a body I would provide for the purpose of guard-
representative of the people—the house ing against abuses of the character sug-
of representatives—and we have created gested by the hon. and learned member,
another representative of the states—the Mr. Higgins, that the dual referendum
senate and I think, in a matter of this should be demanded by affirming a propo-
sort, where the individual interests of a sition that the question affects, not only
state as a state might be so seriously in- the interests of the commonwealth, but
volved, before any action is taken when also the interests of any particular state.
à deadlock has occurred, you ought to
or states.
provide for the two majorities as a mode The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Would
of guarding the existing condition of not that allow the smaller states to dictate
affairs.
to the larger states ?
The Hon. S. FRASER : There are many
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
other points !
No. This is the position I take : that in
purely national questions, when there is
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
no suggestion of any necessity for inter-
There are a number of other points; but I
ference by the representatives of the states
am only addressing myself to such as occupy
in state interests, the nation should rule.
my attention at this moment. No doubt,
I think that is a principle from which we
the other points will be more satisfactorily
cannot get away. At the same time, in
dealt with by others. What I suggest is
state questions, in matters in which state
this : that, while you provide for the na-
interests are really involved, we have
tional referendum generally, you should
created a senate for the
purpose
of guard-
give a power to à certain section, a small
ing those interests, and we ought to give it
but representative proportion, of the house
an effective power. We ought not to allow
of representatives, to demand a national
the senate within its proper jurisdiction
referendum where they consider that state
to be overruled by any other persons than
interests are involved:
its own constituents. The national refer-
Mr. HIGGINS: Would not the op- endum alone would enable the senators to
position, in almost all cases, be strong be overruled by Iamjustified-in using the
enough to carry the demand for the
word-other than their own constituents,
dual referendum, so as to embarrass the because, although they are the same people,
ministry?
they are voting in different groups. The
The Right Hon. C. C: KINGSTON: I dual referendum will throw around them
do not think so. I trust that those who the protection of the grouping, which is
are called upon to discharge their impor- provided in the state interests. Is it not
tant functions the members of one or possible to differentiate between the two
other of these high and responsible bodies classes of cases? The case of the Murray
--will do so with some due regard to the waters within our own boundary is surely
principles on which this constitution is a matter iu which we have a right to the
framed, and will not wickedly and wantonly protection of the dual majorities. Take,
take advantage of a provision such as that on the other hand, matters of the character
which I suggest. The power of demanding you will see referred to from time to time
a dual referendum I would give to one- within the powers of the federal parliament
third of the house of representatives, or to -matters relating to marriage and divorce,
one-half of the representatives of half the the guardianship of. infants, and other
states in the house of representatives, and questions:
872
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Do you not am prepared to provide for the overruling
think that divorce may be a very vital state of a minority by a majority when the
question?
question is a national question, and not a
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: state question. I take it that the federal
No; I do not think so. I think it affects idea, the essence of a federation, lies in the
the individual and the nation. It seems erection of a second house in which all
to me that it is intolerable to say that in these safeguards are provided, and where
a matter of this sort-say of marriage and state interests will be duly conserved.
divorce--the senate may block the way of Whether you give the power of control in
any advance, may practically negative re- the first instance, or in the end, it is the
form and re-enact the existing law by the same thing. I do not think that where
support, as has been put by my right hon. there is really a clashing of interests the
friend, Mr. Reid, of 600,000 people—who representatives of either house should be
may prevent, in that respect, effect being compelled to give way; but I do think
given to the wishes of 2,500,000, or even that upon national questions which would
a greater number. Is that a fair thing? naturally chiefly occupy the attention of
Each individual in a matter of that sort is the federal parliament, the power of the
equally interested. It is a national ques- majority ought to prevail. I think also
tion, in the gravest sense of the term. It is that a provision can be adopted enabling
not a state question; and, in a matter of it to prevail, at the same time safeguard-
that sort, the majority ought to rule. I ing the rights of a minority on state ques-
..cannot believe that if any section of the tions in the way to which I refer.
house of representatives, adopting the argu- Mr. HIGGINS : Suppose that we cannot
„ment of the hon. and learned member, Mr. get the national vote, and the states vote
Higgins, were desirous of harassing the
to agree on a tariff !
Government, they would be willing to take
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
upon themselves, for that purpose, the re-
Does the hon. gentleman think that a
- sponsibility of claiming a dual referendum
tariff is a state or a national question ?
on the ground that the interests, not only
Mr. HIGGINS: I think it would be
-of the people of the commonwealth as a
whole, but of the individuals of each par-
treated as closely affecting the states, if
ticular state, were concerned.
any question is to be so treated !
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Still the
pro-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
vision is open to the objection that there is think there is a good deal to be said in
no finality in the dual referendum !
favour of its being considered a state ques-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: tion, but at the same time I think that
There is no finality, and.there ought not matters of the sort should be dealt with in
to be in a federation. There ought not to the way I described. If there had been a
be conferred on the representatives of the dissolution, and if the members had come
nation power to overrule the representa- back at issue—and I make bold to say
tives of the states, except by the means to there seldom will be such a thing, because
which I refer, that is, a dual majority they will soon agree if each of them have
where state interests are concerned.
the same liability to a dissolution—but if
Mr. LYNE: How do you provide for there were a dissolution, and members
that?
came back disagreeing, there could, if the
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I facts warranted it, be an affirmation that
do not intend to provide for it at all. I state interests were involved by a repre-
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
873
[20 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
sentative section of the house of represen- little further, and taking one-half of the
tatives, by one-third of the whole number representatives of one-half of the states,
or one-half of the representatives of one- and applying that provision to the smaller
half of the states. The doubt would then
states, then four South Australian, three
be solved by those who said that it was a Tasmanian, and three Western Australian
state question and required the protection representatives who set their hands to a
of a dual majority.
declaration of the character to which I
An Hon. MEMBER: Under that arrange- have referred could ensure a similar result.
ment 600,000 persons might stop the pass- What more is wanted ? It would not be
ing of a tariff desired by 2,000,000 ! right and proper to intrust this definition
Mr. LYNE: There should be a mass of state rights to a majority to the extinc-
referendum !
tion altogether of the views and wishes of
The Right Hon. C.C. KINGSTON : If a minority. I take it that no poll would
the hon. member says that the will of the be demanded unless there were some real
people should prevail to the extinction of ground for it.
state interests, I am not going with him, Mr. LYNE: Could a number of small
and so far as that is concerned, he may go states demand that the referendum be a
alone. I am going to the extent I have state referendum upon the question, for
indicated, which I think is a fair thing. instance, of the tariff ?
Upon national questions let the nation be The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: A
supreme, irrespective of the groups into majority of the three states to which I
which it is divided, and the artificial bound- have referred could affirm a resolution,
aries which appear upon the map; but upon but they would not be likely to do it
questions which are alike of national con- lightly ; it would be done with a due con-
cern and peculiarly affecting state interests sideration of the constitutional provisions
let us give to the people of the states that relating to the scheme. The affirmation
protection which every true federation of a resolution that state interests were
affords. Let us throw around them the involved in the question would ensure to
protection of a dual majority—a majority the states, on whose behalf they spoke, the
of both houses--and if you cannot get that protection of a dual referendum, and they
let existing affairs wait until you do. I do ought to have it. This is the position: on
not think that there will be much suffering one side we have those who claim a national
as the result. As regards the way in which referendum in all cases; on the other
the thing would work out by way of figures, hand, we have those who say that there
I have taken it that under the existing shall be a dual referendum in all cases.
conditions the house of representatives For my part, what I want to do—and I
would be composed of 76 members, of
suppose we all wish to do that-is to bring
whom New South Wales would have 26; about a fair agreement among ourselves.
Victoria, 24; Queensland — and I am
and I am I think it would be a mischievous thing if,
sanguine as to Queensland being with with the weight of one side or the other,
us–9; South Australia, 7 ; Tasmania, a resolution were carried by a narrow ma-
5; Western Australia, 5 ; 26 of these jority which the other side bitterly resented.
representatives who were willing to take It would be infinitely preferable, although
upon themselves the responsibility of say- it might involve some small departure from
ing that state interests were involved in principle, that we should agree upon a
any particular question, could demand the scheme which we could all go to our people
protection of a dual majority. Going a and recommend; and feeling as I do that
874
Australia Bill..
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
this is a fair middle course between the two not have risen unless I had thought that
schemes—a national referendum and a dual it was the duty of every hon. member who
referendum-I suggest it for the considera- could make a suggestion which might, by
tion of the Committee. As a usual.thing any possibility, be of use on this occasion,
a national referendum would be preferred, to do so, and I shall indeed be glad if my
and upon questions of state interests a dual observations have, in the slightest degree,
referendum would not be required unless contributed to such a result.
there were some fair reason to ask for it. Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [5:1]:
In other words, there would be a national If this debate has done nothing else, it
referendum, unless a dual referendum were must have removed the misapprehension
asked for.
that was evidently current this morning,
Mr. McMILLAN :
that the question before the Committee
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : was one that divided the representatives
The size of the majority is a matter of of the larger states on the one side from
detail. I have provided that there shall the representatives of the smaller states
be a representative minority, and a repre- on the other side, and perhaps' no speech bas
sentative minorily would not claim to exer- contributed more to the removal of that
cise a power of this sort unless they thought very injurious misapprehenson, than the
they were fairly entitled to it. It would speech of the right hon. member, Mr.
be a question of state interests or no state Kingston. His suggestion has been before
interests, or, in other words, a national re- the Convention two or three days, and I
ferendum.or a dual referendum. A national venture to think that it possibly contains
referendum could always be discarded in within itself the germs:of a sound solution
favour of a dual referendum if there were of this question, which is rendered diffi-
fair cause for it. That is secured by cult, not because it presents any intrinsic
giving a minority the power to call for a difficulties of fact which have to be faced,
dual referendum. I would just like to but because we are grappling with an un-
point out before I sit down that a dual re- reality-something which in our hearts we
ferendum will be ineffective unless a ma- all know to be an unreality—and which
jority of the states vote in a way dif- we are endeavouring to grapple with only
ferent from a majority of the people. in order to remove popular misapprehen-
If the matter is so clearly a national one, sion and popular alarm.
or it is so hopeless to expect that the indi- An Hon. MEMBER : We dispute that!
vidual states will overrule the verdict of Mr. WISE: I recognise as fully as any
the nation, that neither one-third of the one the necessity of devising some method
"house of representatives, nor the represen- that, in the last resort, should the two
tatives constituting the majorities of houses fail to agree, will enable some de-
three states, can be got to ask for a dual cision to be arrived at. But I see clearly,
referendum, there is no good reason, in what I do not think any one of us has
such a case, for requiring the dual referen- much doubt about that the occasions
dum, and it should not be taken.
when these difficulties can arise are so
sorry that, in a matter of this sort, there rare, so unimaginable, that for all practic-
seems to be such a conflict between the able purposes we may regard them as
two cases of the national referendum and negligible. There is only one form of con-
the dual referendum. I do hope that:some
stitution of which I know under which a
means of getting out of the difficulty may deadlock cannot occur, that is, a personal
be devised satisfactory to us all. I should despotism. Wherever you have a consti-
I am
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston,
Commonwealth of
875
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
are.
tution of checks and balances, you must ing with the dwarf, agreeing to share thie
run the risk that, at some period or other spoil on equal terms, and when there arose
in the movement of the machine it will a difficulty about sharing the venison-
stop. I have always understood that the giant pointing out that there was not
deadlocks are the price which constitu- enough for him, and the dwarf insisting
tional nations pay for the benefits of con- that if their appetites were kept within
stitutional freedom, and when we are put- bounds there was enough for both, and
ting together a federation composed, as each voting and not getting finality--the
ours will be, of a union of independent giant swallowed the dwarf first and the
states, the price which we will pay for venison afterwards. That is the sort of
federation is the possibility that. those finality which might be brought about
states may at times think their interests the larger states putting an end to
are so interfered with that they will pre- the national aspirations of the smaller
fer to cry "halt,” and.leave things as they states by the exercise of their voting
None the less, it is clear that that power. This sort of finality does not
power of stopping progress, in remote but appear to me to be just, and we, by our
conceivable contingencies, may act as a
votes, have declared that it is not the sort
check on the national development of large of finality intended under this coninion-
portions of the continent; and, therefore, wealth.
that some means should be devised to Mr. HIGGINS: The small Jack killed the
give effect to the national will, when the big giant, and so the minor states might
national will is involved, appears to ne be able to kill the bigger states !
to be highly desirable. I do not know that Mr. WISE: That is a reason why I, for
any scheme has been presented which one, think that the larger states will not
would have that effect, except the scheme exercise their power any more than the
of the right hon. the Prime Minister of smaller states will exercise theirs. We
South Australia, which by clearly separat- have been going into an agreement about
ing national interests from state interests, which alarms have been excited, and it is
and by leaving the national will to take our duty to allay those alarms. We may
effect in all ordinary matters, and impos- think that they are ill-founded; but pos-
ing on the representatives of the states sibly we are wrong, because a majority of
the responsibility of declaring what matters bon. members are against us; but still,
are, in their opinion, matters vitally affect- alarm existing, we must devise some means
ing the states as states, draws that line of of allaying it without endangering the
demarcation which we cannot draw now- fundamental compact which lies at the
because we cannot see how the powers
basis of this constitution. I would not
given in this bill will affect on the one have risen to take part in this debate, after
hand the states, or on the other hand the the masterly constitutional address of the
commonwealth-and which, while it draws hon. and learned member, Mr. Deakin, were
that-line, draws it with a. hand that is re- it.not that I have been compelled somewhat
sponsible to the people of Australia and to to change the position I occupied at Ade-
the people.of the states. I admit that-even laide on this question. The amendment
under that scheme there may be cases in that was carried by the hon. and learned
which what is called finality will not be member, Mr. Symon, the other day, and
obtained. But there is finality of two kinds. against which I voted, was the same amend-
There is that sort of finality which was
ment I myself proposed at Adelaide, and
illustrated when the giant went out hunt- on that occasion the hon. and learned
876
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
:
member, Mr. Symon, was one of my most those devices, those traditions of elasticity
vigorous opponents. Times have changed which soften the conflict between the two
since then.
houses—which act as buffers between them
Mr. SYMON: The hon, and learned mem-
--- will be non-existent. Each house under
ber convinced me!
the Commonwealth Bill will act within
clearly well-defined lines laid down by the
Mr. WISE: Having convinced the hon.
constitution, and will not only be justified
and learned gentleman by the arguments
in acting, but will be bound to act, up to
I used then, I hope that I shall convince
the extreme limits of those lines. Further
him by the arguments I use now.
than that, each house will, as has been
Mr. SYMON : They are not so good !
many times pointed out, appeal to different
Mr. WISE: What has convinced me constituencies whose authority is final.
are the arguments used by you, sir, in your Therefore, we cannot rely upon any of the
speech in opening the debate at Adelaide, old considerations for overcoming the dif-
and which suggested a matter upon which
ferences between the two houses if we have
all of us have been reflecting ever since, to see whether some new device cannot be
in dealing with this question, when you invented to give to the executive the same
pointed out to us that the riddle to be authority over the parliamentary machine
solved was how to reconcile responsible under the new system as it possesses under
government with the federal system. It the present system. I fail to see that there
appears to me that the only solution of is any possibility of giving this power unless
that riddle is to place in the hands of the you impose upon the representatives in the
executive, which is the driving power, the second chamber that full sense of indivi-
whole control of both parts of the parlia- dual responsibility for every vote they give
mentary machine ; for to allow one part of under which every member of the house of
the machine to exercise control over the representatives must lie. I recognise that
other is to tie the hands and weaken the unless the power of dissolving the senate
power of that body on whose vigorous in- is possessed by the executive, you may have
itiative the whole success of responsible votes given in the second chamber from
government must depend. I quite agree personal ill-will, from a desire to obtain
that the hon. and learned member, Mr. popularity in a particular constituency, or
Symon, was right from his point of view, from any motive other than that which
when, in answer to me, he said that, under pays regard to the broad interests of Aus-
our present system of responsible govern-
tralia as a whole. It is to prevent that,
ment, it was sufficient for the government and to secure that every senator when he
to have power to dissolve the assembly, gives his vote does so at the risk of being
and that, then, after the dissolution of the called upon to answer for it to his consti-
first chamber, the second chamber would tuents, not only in the future, but imme-
give way. My hon. and learned friend, diately, that it is necessary that the execu-
from his point of view, made a great con- tiveshould have power to dissolve the senate.
cession in allowing the second chamber to I am not going to repeat the arguments
be dissolved; but, there is this difference which have been used; and, indeed, I almost
between the constitution which we are owe an apology to this Convention for put-
creating, and the constitutions to which we ting forward my own views when they so
are accustomed : under the new common- much resemble the views which have been
wealth constitution we shall know no such expressed by others. But it seemed to me
thing as constitutional conventions. All that I should be lacking in candour if,
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of
877
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
holding such a different view upon this and here is the safeguard for the security
matter from that which I took in Ade- of the senate-that the dissolution of the
laide, I did not explain the reasons which senate shall not take effect within six
had brought about the change, in the hope months of the period at which the house
that what had weighed with me would of representatives would expire by effluxion
weigh with others. When the dissolution of time. That is to say, to guard against
of the senate has been agreed to, I am pre- the danger, suggested by one of the repre-
pared to accept any proposal, whether the sentatives of South Australia, of the power
dual referendum or the meeting of the two of dissolution being recklessly used when
houses, to secure finality. I believe there the house of representatives is just about
aremany who share my view that we should to go to the country, in order to punish
accept any proposal that would commend the senate and involving no punishment
itself to the majority. The danger which of the house of representatives, I propose
we are trying to meet does not appear to that the senate shall not be dissolved at
me a real danger; but still it is necessary to any time within six months before the
provide some means to meet it in the re- natural expiry of the life of the house of
mote possibility of its arising. Therefore representatives. That is a safeguard
any means to preserve state interests, when against the abuse of the power, while the
the interests of states are affected, will be possessicn of the power would be a weapon
cordially supported by me. The Right to insure, and the only weapon which will
Hon. Sir George Turner proposes to omit insure, to the executive the proper control
the word “if.” If that word is omitted, of the parliamentary machine. If the
the first result will be to create a blank, amendment be carried, we can afterwards
in which he proposes to insert the foilow- discuss what should take place in the event
ing words:
of the dissolution not giving satisfactory
Provided that in lieu of dissolving the house results--whether the referendum should
of representatives, the proposed law may be re-
be adopted, or whether we should provide
ferred to the direct determination of the people
as hereinafter provided.
for å meeting of the two houses. At the
If that amendment is put, I shall pro-
present moment, I do not see my way to
pose to amend it by inserting after the support à proposal for the meeting of the
two houses before any dissolution takes
word representatives" the following
words :-
place, or before the power of dissolution
has been given to the executive, because,
Alone in the first instance, both houses of
parliament may be dissolved simultaneously :
as the right hon. member, Sir George
Provided that the senate shall not be dissolved Turner, pointed out, the result might be
within a period of six months immediately pre- that the majority of the senate might con-
ceding the date of the expiry by effluxion of spire with the minority of the house of
time of the duration of the house of representa-
tives. And if after such dissolution the pro-
representatives to put out a ministry which
posed law fails to pass with or without amend-
was responsible to the house of representa-
ment.
tives, and which had a majority there. If
If my proposal is carried it will give an that ministry went out of office, what could
alternative to that already carried by the the incoming ministry do, because it would
hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, have a minority in the house of representa-
the alternative being that in lieu of the tives? Representative government could
course confirmed by the carrying of the not be carried out under these conditions.
hon. and learned member's amendment Therefore, as this device of the meeting of
both houses may be dissolved, provided the two houses is only to be employed as
878
Australia Bill.
Commonucalth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
a
a last resource, I shall be prepared to also prepared to accept what I asked for
trust to the old, well-known methods of in the first instance-the referendum with-
giving to the executive government full out the dissolution. There seems some
control of parliament, and to trust them misapprehension that we are anxious to
to prevent its abuse, and, if possible, its get this double dissolution ; but we are
exercise.
not. We merely accepted it because we
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- thought that it would be an inducement
toria) [5:18]: This matter having been so to others who felt that there was some
fully discussed, and I having spoken on strong argument in favour of it to agree
previous occasion with regard to it, I do to our proposal that the ultimate resort
not intend to detain the Convention at should be to the people. Another proposal
any length now.. I rise more to speak has been submitted by the Right Hon. G.
with regard to the new proposals which H. Reid, and by the hon. member, Mr.
have been lately placed before us, and also Carruthers, that is, that these difficulties
to endeavour to remove some misapprehea- should be settled after the double dissolu-
sion which appears to exist in the minds tion by the two houses meeting together,
of some representatives with reference to
and if a majority cannot be obtained there
the position of my hon. colleagues and is to be a national or mass referendum.
myself in regard to the referenduni.
We
Of course I am prepared to accept his
asked in the first instance that where the scheme as far as the double dissolution is
houses could not agree there should be a concerned; but then he asks that the two
referendum. We did not ask for a double
houses meeting together, we should have
dissolution, and we did not desire to have a two-thirds majority. That neutralises
a double dissolution. We were perfectly the whole effect of his proposal. If he
satisfied that where the two houses could proposed that the two houses should meet
not agree the people should be allowed to together, and that those present, and
decide the matter upon a direct vote. But voting, should decide the matter, I could
it was pointed out that there would be a understand that there was some reason-
larger inducement to the government of able foundation for the proposal. But that
the day to use the referendum, because is not the case, and we should simply, by
it would require them to take little, if this proposal, be unquestionably handing
any, responsibility, and therefore to follow
over the larger states absolutely to the
out the constitutional principle, the go- smaller states. I do not agree, and never
vernment should first of all be com-
have agreed, to the two houses meeting to-
pelled, by means of a dissolution, to con- gether, and I have spoken strongly against
sult the constitution. Seeing that there it. I do not think that is a reasonable or
was some force in that argument, and proper mode of settling these disputes.
being satisfied that having got the double Even if the hon. member proposed or sug-
dissolution we should also have the refer- gested that an ordinary majority should de-
endum
cide the question on the two houses meet-
An Hon. MEMBER : The dual refer- ing together, my.objections would not be
endum !
removed, and I should be bound to vote
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The against the proposal. We have endea-
dual referendum. That we considered poured, by giving the best attention to this
would be a satisfactory settlement of the problem, to solve it, and I think the Right
difficulty. I was prepared to accept the Hon. C.C. Kingston has hit upon the true
referendum with the dissolution, and I am and propersolution. When speaking origin-
[Mr. Wise.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.. 879
ally, I said there were certain questions Mr. SYMON : That would cause a great
which ought to be settled by the national deal of agitation and deadlock in the house
referendum, and there were other questions of representatives. You would be asking
which, in fairness to the smaller states, them to decide a judicial question !
should only be settled by the dual referen- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: It
dum. My difficulty was how to place words is as much a constitutional question as any
in this bill which would divide those two other matter that could come before them.
classes by a sharp line of demarcation. I The small states need have no fear of that.
failed to see any mode whaterer of doing My hon. friend told us it would require
that. If I could have seen a mode, I twenty-six votes. If we take Queensland
should have been very glad. Therefore, South Australia, and Western Australia,
knowing that it was utterly impossible to
they will have the twenty-six votes, even
induce the representatives of the smaller if they could not get any of the representa-
states to agree to the national referendum, tives:of the larger states to combine with
and being anxious to provide some mode them to demand the referendum. I cannot
of settling these difficulties when they do realise that, in any dispute we may have,
arise, I was prepared to accept the dual we are going to have state against.state.
referendum, although I admit quite freely. I never can conceive it. It seems to me
that that would not give finality in ail utterly absurd to say that, when men meet
cases, but it would unquestionably settle in a federal parliament, representing the
the vast majority of cases that are ever whole continent, and with our states prac-
likely to arise. The Right Hon. G. H. tically effaced, so far as their deliberations
Reid saw the same difficulty, and he de- are concerned, the disputes which may
sired to throw on the smaller states the arise, and, probably, will arise, will be only
onus of preparing a list of matters which those in which states will be pitted against
they considered should be decided by the states. I fail to realise that, or to see the
dual referendum. They might fairly retort slightest foundation for it.
and say, “No, you prepare a list of the
Mr. HIGGINS : Does not that show the
matters which you desire to be settled by absurdity of asking for the consent of the
the national referendum.” So we see that states, as well as of the people ?
that mode of settling this difficult problem
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
is impossible.
am not going to deny that it is absurd,
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : No- but we have to deal with matters as they
body can prepare a list!
What is the use of endeavouring to
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No- get what we know a two to one majority
body can prepare a list now to meet all the of this Convention will not give us ? If we
difficulties that may hereafter arise. The
take the views of hon. members who have
Premier of South Australia has, to my spoken we know perfectly well that if a
mind, suggested a mode which we can all mass referendum is forced to a votė, the
fairly accept. He said, "Let us lay down majority against it will be two to one.
the principle that the referendum is to be Insisting upon that, and saying we will
made as a national one. If, however, a take nothing else, is simply wasting our
fair minority of the house of representa- time, and will lead us into a position
tives say that state interests will be where we shall have bad feeling, and shall
affected, let them have the right to demand not be able to retrace our steps. That is
and obtain the dual referendum.” Surely
Surely what induced me, when I could not see, in
that is fair.
my own mind, any means of dividing the
are.
880
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
two classes of disputes, so that they might be the last to advocate any slavish follow-
be separately dealt with, to say that I was ing of the cry in any colony for a par-
prepared to take the dual referendum, trust- ticular form of constitution. The only
ing that it would very rarely have to be put extent to which it appears to me we are
into operation, that nearly all the disputes bound to bow to public opinion outside is,
would undoubtedly be settled by the double in so far as we believe it expresses the real
dissolution, and that it would only be in settled convictions of the people who sent
one or two extraordinary cases that we us here. . As I stated in my remarks when
should possibly have to resort to the other this question first arose, I am, and always
steps. However, I think the Premier of have been, opposed to the referendum in
South Australia has devised a means that any form.
any form. I approve of the application of
I shall be perfectly prepared to accept. I it only for the reason that I believe in that
think the larger states can accept it, and mode alone respecting the settlement of
trust that when the matter is being debated the serious deadlocks which might, under
in a federal parliament it will be fairly certain circumstances, arise between the
dealt with. I think the smaller states will two houses. I admit to the fullest extent
be amply protected, and should be satisfied. everything which my hon, and learned
I, for one, and I believe a majority of my friend, Mr. Deakin, said so well this morn-
colleagues, will be willing to fall in with ing, as to the extreme unlikelihood of these
the suggestion of the Premier of South difficulties between the two houses termin-
Australia. But we certainly cannot accept ating in what are called deadlocks. But
the proposal for a meeting of the two houses I do recognise that, infrequent as these
with a two-thirds majority, or with a bare disputes are likely to be, as infrequently
majority.
as they are likely to prove insoluble, when
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New they do prove insoluble they will present
South Wales) [5:29]: I think we all re- infinitely more dangers than the deadlocks
cognise now that a vote of the members
we are acquainted with; and it is to meet
of the Convention upon any of these ques- cases of that kind that I think, not only in
tions is really of very small moment, ex- deference to public opinion outside, but in
cept in view of the probability of its re- deference to what we must know are the
presenting the opinion of the colonies dangers of this constitution, we should
which are represented here, because we arrive at some means of finality.
are really here, each one of us, represent- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We have to make
ing the people of the different colonies, a workable machine !
and the proposals which we make are not The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: We have
to be settled by the question of majorities to make a workable machine, and we have
or minorities here, but by the question of to see that in all possible circumstances it
the majorities or minorities of the people will be workable. If a selection were to
of Australia, who will have the final deal- be made of the kind of questions upon
ing with this question, and I think that which a deadlock is likely to arise—that is
one of the most satisfactory elements of to say, a disagreement which will bring
this discussion is that there has been a the operation of the constitution itself to a
general recognition of the responsibility standstill for a moment, I should select at
under which we act—that is to say, not a once a class of questions on which these
responsibility to the members of this Con- difficulties are likely to arise, and they are
vention, but a responsibility to those who the very class of questions which this con-
sent us here. At the same time, I would stitution has removed from the control
1
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Conimoru:ealth of
881
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
except so far as veto is concerned-of the of.which thelife and soul is finance, you can-
senate itself. If you regard the operation not have a responsibility to the two houses,
of this constitution in regard to any ques- one house must rule. Following the same
tion of taxation, and any question of ap- principle, it is because oue house must
propriating the ordinary supplies for the rule, the house which supports the execu-
services of government, you have the two tive, that a difference on a question of that
points, and the two points only, on which kind will bring you into a deadlock. And
a disagreement between the two houses it is for the same reason, if it is to be a
is likely to prove disastrous. In all other mass referendum, that these questions, and
questions there is time for public opinion these questions only, should be referred to
to adjust the difference. In regard to these the general consideration of the people for
questions there is not time, and I quite their arbitrament.
agree with the observation of my right hon. The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: But sup-
friend, the Premier of New South Wales,
pose there is a tack to the appropriation
when he pointed out that in the
very
in-
bill ?
ception of this constitution, in dealing with
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
the very first question which we will have
member will remember that there is a pro-
to face, the framing of a uniform tariff,
vision under the head of money bills which
we may very well be met with differences
prevents a tack.
of opinion which will divide the people,
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: The govern-
not according to party, but possibly ac-
cording to states, and it is in regard, there-
ment might do it, all the same!
fore, to a question of that kind, which
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The go-
embraces finance or taxation, or any ques-
vernment could not do it. The hon. mem-
tions of appropriation, which embraces
ber will see under these circumstances
financial and other points of view—it is
that the government would be acting
in regard to these questions, and these illegally if they did anything of the kind,
questions only, we are likely to have these and their measure, if passed into law,
difficulties. If we had to vote on some
would not be worth the paper it was
system of referendum, I should be quite written on, and there will be a tribunal
willing to modify my former view as to
under the constitution to decide that
the adoption of the referendum, in the point.
generalsettlementof questions of that kind. Mr. HIGGINS : Suppose that 2,000,000
If there is to be a general referendum, it people want a navigation act and 600,000
will be quite sufficient if that referendum is people say no ?
confined to cases in which an appropriation The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The
for the ordinary services of the year was 2,000,000 people by the force of their
sought, or in regard to which a proposal of public opinion, their power in the common-
taxation was made, and if the referendum wealth, their power in the house of repre-
was restricted to those questions, then you sentatives, their power over the executive
would be following out by analogy the government, will in time assert their own
very same restriction which you place on way, and if with all these powers at their
the powers of the senate itself in dealing back they cannot assert their way, there
with money bills. Why is that restriction must be some very good reason inherent
placed on the senate in dealing with money in the thing itself why they should not.
bills ? Because it is recognised that The difficulty which I foresee, and which
the working of responsible government, I wish to prevent in the working of this
882.
Australice Bill.
Conmonwealth of
[20. SEPT:, 1897.]
constitution, is some block in the working applied with that limit which it seems to:
of the machine itself which we cannot me would not only be logical in regard to
wait to be adjusted by the ordinary forces the frame of this, constitution, but would
which adjust deadlocks in unified com- be consonant with fact. But then, sir,
munities. The case my hon. friend: refers we are met with this difficulty. I cannot:
to is an illustration of one of those matters shut my eyes, nor can any hon. member
which will adjust themselves, which can who has sat here listening day after day
afford to wait; but these matters of finance to the discussions, shut his eyes to the
and appropriation which are connected fact that it would be impossible to carry
with the daily life of government, with the mass referendum in any form in this
the life of the administration itself, are Convention, and if I thought that, even
matters which cannot wait, matters in though it was impossible to carry it in this
which the house. representing the majority Convention, there was a probability of
must prevail if we are to have respon public opinion in the smaller states sup-
sible government, and matters in which porting at any future time a proposal for
in the last resort if you are to have a mass referendum, I still would be inclined
an arbitrament which will settle matters
to persevere in my view.
view. I I say that any
finally, the only arbitrament can be the
man who regards the question from an im-
majority of the voters—the taxpayers of partial point of view and not from the
the community.
point of view of a doctrinaire or a mem-
Mr. HIGGINS : That is a true deadlock, ber of a debačing society, any one who re-
of course !
gards the question from a practical point
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: A true
of view, must be convinced of this : that
dieadlock, and the only deadlock which
the very arguments which we are obliged
is a dangerous one. I so far agree with to use to enforce the necessity to the large
those hon. members who have spoken in states of the use of the referendum will be,
protest of any provision for dealing with a in the hands of the opponents of the bill
deadlock that I recognise that every mode in the smaller communities, the strongest
for settling a deadlock is, to a certain ex- reasons against the adoption of the mass
tent, a stifling of discussion on a public referendum; and; having regard to the
question, and any stifling of discussion on
principle to which I before adverted, that
any public question at any stage of it is,
we have to decide matters, not by vote
in a certain sense, the brute force of the here but by the probability of our vote
majority, and is also a loss to the coin- being ratified by the communities that
munity in the loss of that reason and con- sent us here, I say that circunstance is a
sideration which should be at the bottom
practical consideration that we cannot lose
of all legislation. But there are circum- light of. Therefore, I am driven to the
stances in which you throw these consider- conclusion that as far as the mass referen-
ations over for the highest consideration dum is concerned, although if it does come
of the safety of the commonwealth. It is to a vote in this Convention I shall vote
only where I see that the safety of the for it, I can see at once that as regards
commonwealth is involved in a conflict carrying it in the country as an adjunct to
between the two houses that I would apply federation it is a forlorn hope.
this process of the referendum to the Mr. LYNE: You can carry it in this
people generally, and if it came to the colony right enough!
question of applying the referendum; I The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not
would be quite willing that it should be know that we should ; but the hon. mem-
ברנסC
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
883
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Aristralico Billi
*
ber will recognise this; that you cannot me that the referendum to the people was
view the matter from the point of vïew of the only way of settling the difficulty; but
any one colony, that Victoria's difficulties I felt so strongly that the referendum,
in this respect are our difficulties, and the without previous discussion which a dis-
difficulties of Victoria and New South solution would bring about, without the
Wales are the difficulties of South Aus- previous education of the people on the
tralia. If we are to have-as I hope we question at issue, without the feeling of
all believe we shall bave-the whole con- responsibility which a dissolution would
tinent in this federation, then any insuper- compel members of both houses to observe
able difficulty to the carrying of the bill in --that the working of a referendum in
any one of the colonies is worthy of seri- itself would be disastrous to representa-
ous consideration by us: We may be safe tive institutions. I still hold that view.
in our view ; but, unless it is safe in the I still hold the view that any referen-
other colonies, our labours will be to a dum without a previous dissolution would
large extent of no avail. I have pointed be sapping the very basis of representa-
out that we must, if we wish to come to a 'tive institutions, would place ministers
practical conclusion, endeavour to find in the position of acting in any way
some way out of this difficulty. Various they thought fit, without a sense of re-
proposals have been made. We have been sponsibility, and would enable public ques-
referred to different schemes for the disso- tions to be decided, not after discussion,
lution of the house of representatives and ample and full, and the interchange of
the senate.
opinion in the places where opinion in the
[The Chairman left the chair at 5:45 p.mn.
first instance ought to be interchanged,
The Convention resumed at 7.30-p.m.]
but from considerations, possibly, of quite
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : I was another character, and with an imperfect
pointing out when we adjourned that dis- knowledge of circumstances and conditions
solutions had been suggested as a way out under which inevitably the opinion of the
of this difficulty. I have always been op- people might be obtained. But, still, there
posed to a dissolution of the senate, except appeared no other way out of the difficulty.
under pressure of absolute necessity, and Even now, if I saw any other way out of
for this reason :: that it appears to me that the difficulty I should be in favour of a
one of the merits of tlie constitution of the dissolution with a view to insure that the
senate under this bill is that it is not liable referendum should, in some sense, obtain
to a sudden dissolution at the hands of the and carry out the views of the people
majority of the other house, and that it under circumstances which would enable.
possesses that stability of policy and con- those views to be given intelligibly. But
duct which a continuity of existence pro- if we are to have a dissolution, then I say
duces. It is not altogether removed from the dissolution should be concurrent. If
the people. Every three years it is brought, we are to have a dissolution, both houses:
as to part of its members, in touch with should be sent to the country together:
the people. That, it appears to me, gives It appears to me that whether you make
a sufficient contact with popular opinion, your dissolution concurrent, or whether
whilst continuity and stability of the senate you do not, whether you give a power only
is preserved. But I was willing even that to dissolve the senate after the other house
the senate should be dissolved with the has been dissolved, you will find that any
view of getting finality of decision. Mucli ministry working responsible government.
as I dislike a referendum, it appeared to in the ordinary way, will take very good
884
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 Sept., 1897.]
care that the dissolution of the senate will lead to further discussion, and if the
and the house of representatives are as difficulty is of such a nature that it sepa-
nearly as possible simultaneous. You rates the people from the states in the way
will find that the minister in charge of in which we contemplate that these serious
affairs will not plunge the country into questions of difference will separate the
confusion, and run the risk of breaking people, then you will have the same senate
up his party, by submitting an important and the same house of representatives re-
public question until he is on the eve of turned, and you will have the same answer
a dissolution by effluxion of time. You back from states and people. If the diffi-
will very likely find, therefore, that in culty is great, when the senate and the
the working out of the thing practically, house of representatives are not in agree-
whether the power to dissolve the senate ment, how much greater will the difficulty
is given concurrently or after the dissolu- be when you are face to face with a posi-
tion of the other house, it will come to the tion in which the people and states are in
same thing But if there is one thing to irreconcilable conflict, and when there is no
be observed more than another in the con- step behind by which you can solve the diffi-
sideration of all this machinery for get- culty? Unless your referendum is to bring
ting rid of deadlocks, it is this : that every finality, better have no referendum at all,
dissolution, every disturbance of the ordin- better trust public opinion, better trust to
ary current political action, is a distinct the operation of institutions worked by
injury to the country, a disturbance of men who are used to self-government, than
business, a stopping of administration, and to trust to a referendum which is only
a great expense to the whole community. a delusion and a snare, which will plunge
It means a dislocation of the whole ma- the country into confusion and insure
chinery of government, and of the con- no finality. Now, is there any remedy
stitution, which ought to be avoided in beyond that? I say at once that rather
every way that is possible. For that rea- than have a dual referendum I would have
son, amongst others, there can be no ques- no referendum at all. But my right hon.
tion that if we are to have a dissolution at friend, Mr. Kingston, has suggested, it
all, that dissolution ought to be concurrent, appears to me, a way out of that difficulty,
so that the question may be submitted to which seems more scientific than most of
the electors at one time. A number of the proposals, and is to a certain extent
reasons have been submitted in support of satisfactory. My right hon. friend sug-
that view by other hon. members, which I gests that inasmuch as it is just that you
do not wish to repeat. But, going beyond should have finality, and that a national
that, what is to result from this dissolu- referendum in cases in which state rights
tion? I bave already spoken of a mass re-
are not involved would not be fair to the
ferendum. But it appears that a number
aber states, we should put it in the power of
of hon. members are in favour of what is the house of representatives to veto a
called a dual referendum—a referendum national referendum and demand a state
to the people and to the states. At first referendum.
I was rather captivated by this idea ; but The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: By a
it appears to me that to place a provision representative minority !
of that kind in the constitution with the The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : By a
notion that it will securefinality, is to adopt representative minority. Now, the diffi-
a delusion and a snare to ourselves and to culty I see, looking more particularly to
the people. It cannot result in finality. It the interests of the larger states in the
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
885
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
carrying out of this proposal is this: My The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not
hon. friend says that a third of the house know that the hon. and learned member
of representatives will be sufficient to bring can say that. The hon. and learned mem-
about that process which will prevent the ber and myself are in agreement upon one
operation of a national referendum, and point—we want finality.
make the referendum one for the states. The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : As
Now, as I think the Right Hon. Sir nearly as you can get it !
George Turner pointed out, taking the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : As
states as constituted by ourselves, with nearly as you can properly get it!
the admission of Queensland, you will find The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : As
that with the six states represented in the nearly as you can properly get it. The
senate, and taking the number according difficulty I see about the right hon. mem-
to the 50,000 quota, the smaller states if ber's amendment is this: that it carries
they combined would have twenty-six re- you no further on in your difficulty. My
presentatives. Now, twenty-six is exactly objection to the dual referendum is that it
the one-third required to protest, so that does not give you finality. On the other
in any case where the smaller' states chose hand, you put it in the power of the
to combine they could always do so with smaller states at any time to bring about
the effect of turning the national referen- a dual referendum instead of a national
dum into a states referendum.
referendum. I admit that it is very much
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Into a dual better than the proposal of a dual refer-
referendum !
endum. I admit that it is an attempt in
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I am a scientific and practical way to solve this
speaking of a states referendum as distin- difficulty, but it does not satisfy me. In
guished from a national referendum. It fol- the first place, it appears to me that it
lows that you leave it entirely in the hands almost ensures this: that in any case
of the smaller states at any time to insure where you get a combination of states, the
the carrying out of the dual referendum. referendum will be to the states as a nation
An Hon. MEMBER: They must be instead of to the nation alone.
unanimous to do that!
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : But
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : No doubt that is after a double dissolution, which is
they must be unanimous, but if they were a considerable safeguard !
unanimous at any time, no matter what The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: That is
the question might be, they could ensure unquestionably the case. I admit that it
the carrying out of a dual referendum. is one of those solutions which come very
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : They near to what we require.
must affirm the proposition that states The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : You
rights are concerned !
would only get that combination where
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I know state interests were involved !
that the hon. member has added that pre- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : I quite
caution, but it is quite evident that that see that you will get that when state in-
would be done.
It does not require any
terests are involved; but as the hon. mem-
great stretch of the imagination to sup- ber is probably aware, the question of state
pose that in almost any important question interests, like every other question in
—any question in which this difficulty politics, will not necessarily be decided
arose-state rights would be involved - upon the purest possible grounds. Irrele-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
vant matters of all kinds will probably
3 P
886
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 Sept., 1897.]
1
creep into the discussion. There may be should last until parliament otherwise
pro-
party considerations and personal con- vides. I think that, if that were done,
siderations. Other questions will no doubt hon. members who have been objecting to
operate in the matter. My only fear is, the proposal would find that, while it
that the referendum will be used in such formed a very good basis for the beginning
a way that it will tend to become a states of the houses—while it formed a very
referendum instead of a national referen- proper proportion for the business between
dum. I come now to the other proposal, the two houses in their initiation, it would,
which appears to me to offer, perhaps, a at the same time, afford parliament an
better solution of the difficulty than any get opportunity to deal with anomalies when
proposed. I do not pretend for a nioment, they became striking; and when those
in expressing this opinion, that I have come anomalies did happen, if they ever did, as
toa conclusion very stronglyinmyown mind pointed out by the hon. member front Vic-
as between the proposal of the right hon. toria, parliament would have the power of
member, Mr. Kingston, and the proposal testing the question whether they should
of the right hon. member, Mr. Reid. But or should not be continued, and in testing
it appears to me that the latter proposal the question the senate would have the
does give more finality—that it lessens right to reto legislation of any kind in
the expense, and brings about finality regard to it which disturbed what they
with less convulsion and disturbance of considered to be their proper place and
the machinery of government and the busi- their proper power under the constitution.
ness of the country. For that reason, I The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: See
am very much more inclined to support what would happen. The senate would
the proposal of the right hon. member, veto it; and, according to this proposal,
Mr. Reid.
the two houses would meet together to
An Hon. MEMBER : Is that the proposal settle it !
of the hon. member, Mr; Carruthers ?
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Not neces-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : It is the sarily. But, supposing that were so, I
same thing in reality. It is a proposal will point out to the right-hon. gentleman
which, I think, I originally made or gave by-and-by how that would put him in no
notice of in Adelaide, though in a more better position. I was led a little bit
restricted form that is, that the two away from what I was saying by my right
houses should sit together.
hon. friend's reference to the quota
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: That The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :: One
means that the quota already fixed shall hangs on the other; so far as I am cons
stand good!
cerned !
Mr. McMILLAN : It depends upon
that!
The Hon.R. E. O'CONNOR: No doubt
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: So far as I would be willing to make that concession
I am concerned, that would very likely be in regard to the quota, that is to say, not'
so; but, in deference to the very strong to make it an irrevocable part of the con-
views put forward by some hon, members stitution, but to make it a beginning in
from Victoria on the last occasion here, I the working of the relations between the
myself should be inclined to make a con- two houses. Some objections are made as
cession in regard to that proposal of the to the working of my right hon. friend,
quota that the whole of that portion Mr. Reid's, proposal, and it is said that
should be put under the control of the the system would be objectionable, because
parliament; that is to say, that this plan it would place the power entirely in the
t
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
887
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
hands of a combination of smaller states. it seems to me that there are some strong
The amendment, as it is proposed, giving reasons why this principle-which is a very
power to a two-thirds majority, it seems to good one indeed, and one which should be
me, would have that effect, and I should carried out-should not be placed beyond
be altogether opposed to placing the power amendment in the body of the constitution.
of finality in such a case in the hands of a The objection has been made that this pro-
two-thirds majority. But I think that a posal to have the two houses voting to-
three-fifths majority might very well be gether would place the whole power in the
allowed both in fairness to the smaller hands of the smaller states. If there was
states, and in fairness to the larger states. a three-fifths majority that would not be
The Hon. Sir. W. A. ZEAL: It is not so. Suppose six states form the union,
three-fifths of the house; but three-fifths · there will be 112 members in the senate
of the members present !
and house of representatives combined.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not Sixty-seven is three-fifths of that number.
care very much whether it is three-fifths Of the total number of members, giving
of the house, or three-fifths of the members New South Wales and Victoria the num-
present.
ber of representatives which they would
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : If
you
make have with their present population, the total
the quota a shifting quantity the whole representation of the larger states would
thing becomes a sham. You can then be sixty-two, so that to carry a proposal
make it anything you like!
by a three-fifths majority it would be
The Hon, R. E. O'CONNOR: I do not necessary to win over five members from
wish to make the quota a shifting quan-
the smaller states.
tity.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : It would be
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The hon. and very easy to get five radicals to alter the
learned member implied as much !
quota, and then where are we?
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: In that The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The hon.
case I have been misunderstood. The only member might apply exactly the same prin-
concession I made was this: that in regard ciple to very many portions of the consti-
to the quota proposals I would make them tution, and it might be applied equally
subject, like a great many other parts of well the other way. Sixty-seven members
the constitution, to the determination of will be required to make the requisite ma-
parliament; that is to say, I would not jority. Therefore, to make up this ra-
embody the quota... proposals in the consti- jority the larger states would have to vote
tution itself.
in a solid body, and to win over five repre-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Then the sentatives of the smaller states. If the
whole thing becomes a sham!
smaller states voted in a solid body the
The Hon. R. E.O'CONNOR: I think the three-fifths majority could not be obtained.
hon. member is using too strong an expres-
On the other hand, upon certain occasions,
sion. The hon. member will find that a the representatives of the smaller states
system which initiates legislation between might win over some of the representatives
the two: houses and establishes. it with a of the larger states. There is an equal
power in one house to make its objection to chance either way.
any removal of it is something much more The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Do
than a sham. My reason for suggesting hon. members suppose that all the repre-
that the matter. might be left to the con- sentatives of the larger states will ever
sideration of the federal parliament is that vote together?
888
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 Sept. 1897.]
1
>
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I was drops. That reminds me now of a remark
about to point that out. The whole of the made by the hon. member, Mr. Wise.
objections to the working of this system
Mr. CLARKE : Where is your finality?
are founded upon the supposition that you Mr. MCMILLAN : The deadlock con-
will have all the smaller states upon one
tinues !
side and the larger states upon the other. The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No;
The thing is impossible and almost absurd, the matter comes to an end exactly in the
when it is remembered that one of the
same way
smaller states-if Queensland is included Mr. CLARKE : What do you mean by
in that category—will be separated by finality”?
New South Wales and Victoria from the The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: A de-
other small states, with which, according cision; an agreement is come to pass or
to the supposition, she is to be in league not to pass the measure.
against her larger neighbours. When you Mr. CLARKE: It has to wait!
apply what are the probabilities to criti- The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes. .
eism of that kind, it seems to me that it The same thing happens whatever proposal
appears very unsound.
you adopt. It will happen with a national
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The referendum, which is the most final method
same criticism applies to the proposal of
you can adopt. Even then, if a proposal
the right hon. member, Mr. Kingston !
is not carried, the matter drops in the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I am
same way. You have the same kind of
finality that prevails in this Convention,
aware of that; but the difference is this,
or a house of parliament, when a bill is
that there is some chance of finality in
brought forward and rejected. I now come
this proposal which I make, however it is
to the objection raised by the hon. member,
brought about.
The finality sometimes
Mr. Isaacs, and repeated by the hon. mem-
may be possible against the larger states ;
ber, Mr. Wise—that is, that you throw
it may be against the smaller states ; but
the whole theory of responsible govern-
the finality comes after full discussion,
ment into confusion by a proposal of this
after a representation of the views on both
kind, and that it would give powers to the
sides, and in a way which insures more
senate which they otherwise would not
discussion and a better chance of a result
have in dealing with money bills. That
which will be satisfactory to the people.
It is for that reason-objections being, per- I am open to argument and reason.
is a matter of detail, with regard to which
I
haps, equal in many ways to both of those
think there may be a very great deal to
proposals—that I am inclined to support be said in favour of simply leaving the
strongly the proposal of the Right Hon.
G. H. Reid, because it insures finality, it is finally sent up by the house that sends
in which
and in a way which will operate fairly and
it, to be decided “yes” or “no” by the
with less friction than any of those other
legislature; or it might be that, on the
proposals, in the interests both of the state
other hand, discussion might be allowed.
and the people.
It appears to me, following out logic-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : If a
ally the principles we have already em-
majority is not obtained you don't go any bedded in the constitution, that having
further!
deprived the senate of the power of amend-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If a
. a ing money bills in the first instance, it
majority is not obtained the proposal would be rather an extraordinary stretch
.
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
889
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
'' yea
of principle to allow them the same power whole body of the people, so that what
when the houses are sitting together. But appears to us to be difficulties will, from
that is not necessarily a part of the pro- the nature of our relations, absolutely dis-
posal. My hon. friend only outlined it- appear. I do not wish to detain the Com-
in fact it would be reasonably within the mittee at any great length, but I should
proposal itself that when the houses sit like to say finally, if we are to arrive at a
together there should only be a definite decision on this matter, it appears to me
or"" nay" as to whether the bill is that it would be very much better if we
to pass. The hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, could arrive at some decision, not based
and the hon. member, Mr. Wise, have both upon votes given here, upon our own ab-
suggested that the theory and meaning of solute opinions on these different proposi-
responsible government would be very tions which are put forward, not a vote
largely trenched upon by this proposal, which is the vote absolutely of the ma-
that if a minister who had a majority in jority according to their different opinions,
the house of representatives found that but that we should endeavour, if possible,
that majority was turned into a minority to arrive at some way out of these difficul-
when both houses were sitting together, ties that we should give it the stamp of
what would be his position ? It would be our approval, that we should agree to it as
this : that as long as he held the confi- the best possible way out of these difficul-
dence of the house of representatives, toties, and that we should be prepared to
wbich his executive government is respon- stand by it by-and-by when we have to
sible principally, in which he carries out carry this bill to the country,
all his financial proposals, it would matter Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [82] : I
very little if, on a special vote and under think at last we are beginning to see some
special circumstances, a proposal were light in this dark and entangled wood. I
carried against him. It would mean no have been listening all day, and for several
more than, in the case of a referendum, a days, to this question of deadlocks, and
decision of the same kind would mean. with a good deal of interest; but I did not
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : There understand this morning why the debate
will be no means to carry on !
proceeded. We all know that if we intro-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The hon. duce ten more men from Queensland at
member is brought up against that wall the adjournment of the Convention, the
whichever way he turns. He says there whole question may have to be re-discussed
will be no means to carry on. Exactly in the and settled again. Not only is it that
same way, if the referendum were carried which gives unreality to the debate, but I
against him, there would be no means to feel also that we have had no assurance
carry on.
These are difficulties which I that the amendment which was carried the
quite agree with my hon. friend, Mr. other day is to be rescinded.
Deakin, may not arise once in twenty, Mr. SYMON : Certainly not; it is not
thirty, or fifty years. We only want to going to be rescinded!
be ready for them, and the probabilities Mr. HIGGINS : Here, then, we have
are that when we do arrive at any difficul- been all day talking on the assumption
ties of that sort, instead of being as we that my hon. friend, who is not a man
are now the representatives of different generally to change his views for a very
states trying to imagine how we will work light motive, or a light current of air-
when we are one nation, national aspira- we are talking on the assumption that we
tions and instincts will develop in the can get a double dissolution if we like.
890
Australici Bilz.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. SYMON: The proposals are to add to prophesy hitherto—but I feel that if you
some alternative !
are going to treat the senate as not to be
Mr. HIGGINS : Quite so.
We have dissolved at the same time as the house
been talking to the general question, for- of representatives, you have no chance of
getting that we have carried by a majority, getting the constitution accepted by the
and there stands against us, or in favour larger colonies. As to a dissolution, the
of us, the provision that there is to be advantage of that is this: that we shall
a dissolution, first of the house of repre- be proceeding largely upon those consti-
sentatives and then of the senate. As to tutional lines that we have been used to
what is at present the vote under that in these colonies—you appeal to the people
amendment it is very peculiar. At the at an election. We have as yet no refer-
Convention in Adelaide the hon. and learned endum. But I think the advantage of the
member, Mr. Wise, proposed that, the hon system of dissolution is that we are going
and learned member, Mr. Symon, opposed on well-known constitutional lines.
it, and I proposed a double dissolution. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
Now, we seem to be like playing baseball, Mr. HIGGINS : Still we know what a
we have all moved on one peg. It seems dissolution is. In no colony have we a house
that the hon. and learned member, Mr.
like the senate. I can see no reason why
Wise, has come now to move for a double there should not be a dissolution of any
dissolution, and the hon. and learned mem- house which is elective. The only reason
ber, Mr. Symon, is going to move the reso- for not having a house dissoluble is that
lution which the hon. and learned member, they have no electorate. That is the
Mr. Wise, discarded.
reason why the House of Lords is not dis-
An Hon. MEMBER: Where is the hon. soluble; that is the reason why all the
member.?
nominee houses are indissoluble. But there
Mr. HIGGINS : I am just where I was,
are one or two colonies where we have the
and I intend to keep in the van. I think we
houses quasi-elective, or partially elective,
ought by some means before we part come and where we have still kept up the vicious
to a consent to have a simultaneous disso- system of not making them dissoluble. I
lution of the two houses. There is only a
take it that if you have an elective upper
small difference between us in the numbers, house it ought to be dissoluble just as you
and it is not a difference in principle unless
have the other elective house. There really
we are to assume that the house has more is no ground for dissolving one and nut
of original sin than the senate.
the other. If they both rest upon the
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Which house people, why not both appeal to the people ?
will the hon. member be in?
Mr. SYMON : Then the hon. member
Mr. HIGGINS : In the house of repre- supports my amendment !
sentatives, of course, if I am in any; and Mr. HIGGINS: I have indicated be-
I expect the hon, member to be in the fore that I regard the hon. member's
House of Lords. What I do think is this : amendment as imperfect in this respect,
that there is no difference in the principle that it penalises or punishes the house of
it is merely a difference of expediency; representatives. It sends them to the
and you have two houses elected upon man- country before the senate instead of both
hood suffrage, both relying on the people. together. I must not labour this matter
Of one thing I am certain, and I think I too much. There is this defect in a disso-
shall have the support of members of the lution, that it does not solve the difficulty,
larger colonies in this I have not ventured because you may still have the same mem-
1
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
891
[20 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
on a
bers, or substantially the same members, was provoked by the interjection. I speak
returned, and you may still have the same on that matter with as much knowledge as
difference of opinion between the senate does the right hon. member. I feel deeply
and the lower house. That difficulty is disappointed at the attitude taken on the
not got over by a dissolution. Then matter by one whose government I sup-
comes the next proposal—the national re- port, and have supported with great
ferendum. In a speech the other day I zest. At all events, there is no doubt now
spoke in favour of a national referendum; that in this Convention there appears to
and hon. members who have been so good be given up the national referendum. Now
as to lend me their ears at all during there is a proposal for what is called the
the debates, will recognise that, to be dual referendum. I have already indicated
consistent with my principles, I treat that I shall vote against that proposal. I
the whole of the subjects which you re- shall vote against it for the very same rea-
legate to a federal parliardent as being son that the hon. member, Sir John
national subjects to be treated Downer, will vote for it. The hon, mem-
national basis; but I feel sorry to say, ber has said he will vote for it because it
notwithstanding the hopes that were held is a farce. I will vote against it because
out to us, from the speeches of the hon. it is a farce. He knows that a dual re-
members, Mr. McMillan and Mr. Holder ferendum will have no effect whatever in
and I must speak frankly at this stage settling deadlocks--that the dual referen-
that in consequence of the speech of the dum will have no effect whatever in giving
right hon. the Premier of my own colony, effect finally to the will of the people. For
Victoria, this hope of having a national that very same reason I shall vote against
referendum was rudely shattered. I con- it. I do not know how it could be seriously
fess that I was exceedingly chagrined and proposed in any assembly. The more you look
very angry, because there was every pos: into it the more impossible it becomes. I
sibility of our coming to a reasonable indicated the other day, by some figures
conclusion regarding a national referen- that you might have 236,000 voters in
dum. To surrender that principle which favour of a measure, and 49,000 voters
the right hon. gentleman, and the hon. . against, and still the voice of the 49,000
the Attorney-General, have indicated so voters could easily overrule that of the
clearly in their speeches, that this ought 236,000 voters. I will not go into the
to be in the commonwealth-to abandon figures again, but I may indicate this :
that principle without at least having a that the very fact of putting those two
test vote, is a proceeding which I do not sets of figures opposite to one another in
understand.
the public papers, and before the public
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It mind, enabling electors in Australia to see
never had the ghost or a shadow of a that although they may have 236,000 for,
show!
and 49,000 against, they still cannot carry
Mr. HIGGINS : The right hon. gentle- their way, will lead to grievous dissatis-
man says that it never had a show. I have faction with the constitution, and may
an equal right to say that, without leaning lead to disturbances which would never
upon the national voice, the general voice occur if they felt they had a reasonable
of the people at least in the final resort, hope of carrying their way. If they have
you will never have a shadow of a ghost of five votes to one, practically, they still can-
a show in the larger colonies of carrying not carry a measure. I hold that that accen-
this bill. I have only said that because I tuates the position that the minority is
892
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT,. 1897.]
ruling the majority. There is nothing to that, the referendum in Switzerland for
so dangerous in a commonwealth, or in ordinary federal laws has only been in
a state which is ruled upon professedly operation for six years. Are we to base
representative institutions as to feel that our legislation upon the experience of six
a huge majority can be overruled and years? During this debate, the imperfec-
overridden by a minority.
Now, the
tions of this system of referendum have
analogy to this dual referendum is in been shown clearly--that it is not final,
Switzerland. The difference there is this: that it does not settle things, or, if it
I was not aware until this afternoon, when settles them at all, it settles them on the
the Attorney-General of Victoria was good side of the house which says “No.” Thre
enough to speak, that in 1891 a bill was Attorney-General of Victoria, after having
carried which allowed even federal laws to shown so clearly in his speeches that this
be put under a referendum—that is, the system of looking for the consent of the
referendum to the cantons and to the states as distinct from the people is abso-
people. But if we look into it, we shall lutely wrong, I am sorry to find the hon.
find that that referendum is not used for and learned gentleman buttressing up that
the purpose of settling deadlocks between system in all the votes and speeches he has
the one house and the other. It is not
made since. In mere loyalty to the grow-
used for the purpose of settling a differ. ing population of the colonies, it is our
ence between the senate and the other duty to try to prevent the evils, which
house; but it is used after both houses
must result from leaving questions of this
have conceded the law; and by way of kind to the arbitrament of the smaller
veto 30,000 electors, or eight cantons, can
states. I am dealing with these proposals
come in and say, “Notwithstanding that on the assumption that the parts of the
both houses have passed the law, let us see
constitution we have already passed will
if the people will approve of it."
abide. They do not express my views, but I
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is not will assume that they will be accepted.
correct!
I am dealing with this matter hypothetic-
Mr. HIGGINS: In 1891 the same ally, on the assumption that the other
referendum was applied to federal laws as parts of the constitution will be accepted.
to laws amending the constitution.
The proposal of my right hon. friend, Mr.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACs: The hon. and Kingston, appeared to me to strike a true
learned member is wrong!
note, and I was at first attracted by it.
Mr. HIGGINS: I have refreshed my His idea is, that we cannot decide at pre-
memory during the last two or three hours. sent what the subjects are upon which the
I find on page 77 of the “Swiss Confeder- states are to be allowed to give their votes
ation," by Adams and Cunningham- apart from the votes of the people, and
written in the year 1889, two years before
that we should leave it to the federal par-
the amendment-these words :
liament, so that the house of representa-
But, as we have seen, the latter-the revised tives would be able to say, “This is a state
constitution of 1874-also contains an article subject, and it ought to be left to the
extending the exercise of the popular vote when
states as distinct from the people.” That
demanded by 30,000 citizens, or eight cantons,
to all federal laws and all resolutions of a
proposal was at first attractive; but there
general nature which have been passed by the is oue difficulty which I cannot see that
chambers.
the right hon. member has got over. If
But the point is that they must have been you make the proportion one-third or one-
first passed by the chambers. In addition fourth of the members of the house of re-
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
893
!
presentatives who must declare that the subject, as well as a national subject, there
matter is a states matter, and, therefore, must be a referendum to the states and to
needs the assent by referendum of the states the people. But supposing the states and
as well as of the people, then, I take it, the the people do not agree, then you are in
vote upon the resolution in the house of re- the same quagmire—there is no finality.
presentatives would be a party vote. In I pass from that proposal to the proposal
most of the lower houses in the colonies, put forward by the hon. member, Mr.
you will find about a third of the members Carruthers, as to a joint sitting of the two
in opposition-except, I believe, in West- houses. Again I am beginning to plume
ern Australia, where there are practically myself, because I find that on Thursday last
none in opposition. It would be very easy I referred to the proposal for a joint sitting
to get one third in opposition to embar- of the two houses.
rass the government. They would be cer- The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The hon. mem.
tain to find some reason for saying that the ber will soon be all feathers !
subject was one that ought to be referred to Mr. HIGGINS : As the hon, member
the states as well as to the people. I do not says, I shall soon be all feathers. I find,
see how that difficulty is to be obviated. with regard to this matter of a joint sitting
There is not a single subject among all those of the two houses, that I first proposed it in
in clause 52 which you can lay hold of and this debate. I discover now that a large
may not say, “That may affect Victoria,” number of members are coming round to
or that may affect Queensland," or " that that idea. I am getting really to feel that
may affect Western Australia." And I say I must have some prevision into the seeds
that the opposition, in order to embarrass of time, and am able to say what seed will
the government, would willingly pass the grow and what seed will not grow. Per-
resolution to say that such and such a ques- haps I shall find hon. members coming
tion affected the states. That would be round to my other views, which are thought
another fence to be jumped by ministers. to be extreme at present, with regard to
I do feel this : that the principle of the pro- equal representation. Time is on our side,
posal is based upon the old fundamental and we shall see what happens. I find
mistake of treating any federal subject as . that on Thursday last I said I was surprised
a state subject. Of course I am assuming that the proposal for a joint sitting of the
that we are to abide by our former decision two houses had not been more pressed.
in this matter. This house has committed Now I think that if you have two houses,
itself to the position that every state has and if those two houses are based upon
to be consulted as well as the common- proportional representation, and also upon
wealth. Hon. members know what my an equally liberal franchise, nothing is
views are on that question, and I need not more natural, nothing is more desirable,
repeat them. I wish to deal with this mat- than that you should bring your two
ter as a practical man, trying, as far as I houses together, and by their sitting to-
can, with my humble powers, to facilitate gether inexpensively determine which is
some sort of settlement which will be, on to rule.
the face of it, reasonable. I do not think The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The
any labour expended upon that purpose will hon. member supposes that one-third of
be amiss. Now, the hon. gentleman's pro- the house of representatives would be in
posal does not give finality. Suppose one- opposition !
third of the members of the house of repre- Mr.HIGGINS: Quiteso. The right hon.
sentatives say that the subject is a state member has in view possibly the difficulty
8.94
Australia Bill
Conrmorwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
which a joint sitting of the two houses sitting proposal is to be considered very
might occasion in the colony of Victoria. carefully, especially when in the senate
I quite admit that if there were a dif- you will have men elected upon no property
ference of opinion between the upper and qualification, but upon the principle of one
lower houses in Victoria, one-third of the man one rote. So I say that two houses
members of the lower house being in op- there are more on an equality than the
position, and the whole council being re- two houses in any of our present constitu-
garded as one party, the members of the tions. I quite admit the criticism that has
upper house coming in would give a ma- been directed against it by the Attorney-
jority to the opposition, and their com- General of Victoria. He says that, as
bined votes would be bound to defeat the to finance, that would never do. I per-
ministry. I quite agree with the right fectly agree with him. If you do not
hon. member upon that point, but the dis- give the senate, with regard to money
tinction is that we should be dealing with bills, equal power with the lower house,
a liberal house, based upon liberal prin- it obviously stands to reason that you
cipies on the one side, and on the other cannot pass paragraph 5 of the pro-
with a house based upon the old and obso- posal of the hon, member, Mr. Carruthers,
lete principle of a property vote. To mix in its present form. It says that in such
those two houses would not be fair, and I full conference a majority of two-thirds of
should decline, as strongly as any one, to those present, and voting, shall be neces-
have those gentlemen who were elected sary to pass the proposed law with any
on a restricted qualification treated as amendment therein. Of course that would
having equal voting power, at any joint enable the upper house to refuse to pass
sitting, with those who were elected by a money bill, and then to call for a con-
the people as a whole—I should decline to ference, and at that conference to put any
treat their votes as of equivalent value. amendment in a money bill, and thus
But I do not wish to raise any contro- defeat the scope of the constitution. I
admit that that criticism is quite right;
The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. and but I think that the hon, member can see
learned member think that that has any- that that paragraph of the proposed amend-
thing to do with the question before the ment could be qualified without any diffi-
Chair?
culty—that we can except from the amend-
Mr. HIGGINS: With all respect I do. ment money bills, and show that it is not
I say that a majority of the two houses to apply to them—that is to say, that hon.
The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member members at the joint sitting would not be
see that no property qualification is pro- able to pass a money bill with any amend-
vided for?
ment therein.
Mr. HIGGINS: But I was saying that
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : That woulci
the joint sitting is a proposal to be con-
be providing no method of dealing with
sidered carefully. I was interrupted by deadlocks on money bills !
the right hon. the Premier of Victoria, who Mr. HIGGINS.: Supposing that you
indicated that he had in his mind a diffi- have a money bill which is vetoed by the
culty in regard to a majority in Victoria. senate, it is possible to have a joint con-
I was, therefore, trying to clear up that ference on the mere question : shall that
position, and it is hard to keep within bill, or shall it not, be passed without
strict rules in dealing with any matter of amendment? Supposing that the decision
the sort. But I do feel that this joint is that it shall not be passed, then of course
versy.
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
895
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
another bill must be brought in by the friends here that the quota proposal is one
ministry, or the ministry must retire; and of the most dangerous proposals for us to
all I say is that there must be a modifica- put before the electors. I feel that to fix
tion of paragraph 5 of the proposal of the the number of the house of representatives,
hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, by making which is supposed to represent the popu-
it clear that you cannot in the joint sitting lation of the colonies by the disconnected
pass a money bill with amendments that
number of states, would be a most im-
you can only say “yes” or “no” to the
proper thing. What has the representation
money bill as a whole. That is a view to of the population of Australia to do with
which I should adhere. I am glad that the number of states ? What connection
proposal of the hon. member, Mr. Car- can there be between the two? Is the
ruthers, has been brought forward, and house of representatives to wait until the
supposing that he says that if a majority states subdivide before its number of men-
---but not a two-thirds majority-are in bers can be increased ? I know that at-
favour of the bill which has been proposed, tempts that have been made to qualify the
then the majority can say, "Well, let us provisions in detail; but they do not
have the referendum for the whole people," qualify it altogether. The quota provision
I have no objection to that.
is a most dangerous principle to embody
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER': Does in the bill, if it is to be put before the
the hon. member agree to a two-thirds people of the large colonies; and I shall
majority ?
oppose as strongly as I can even the pro-
Mr. HIGGINS : No; I am going to posal of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers,
refer to that. But if on the other hand for a joint sitting, if the quota principle
there is a considerable minority, say one-
is retained. It would give undue weight
fourth, who are against the bill which has to what I call the minority house--that is,
been passed, that minority can also call the senate. In conclusion, I would say
for a vote of the whole people. I am that the great argument used throughout
asked whether I am in favour of a two- against these proposals for solving dead-
thirds majority? I am not. I think that locks is, “Let the matter alone; questions
under paragraph 5 a simple majority ought will settle themselves.” That is the old
to be sufficient a simple majority of those · story, the old cant, the old declaration
present, and voting. Of course there can with which we are always met when we
be no doubt that it will be a time of ex- propose anything in connection with this
treme tension when you have two houses matter.
sitting together, and in that time of ex-
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: There is a good
treme tension nearly all the members
deal of truth in it!
would roll up, and I take it that they might
Mr. HIGGINS : Quite so. Questions
secure finality, and quickly, by so simple
settle themselves ; but how do they settle
a device as saying "We will count heads
themselves ? By the party which says
and see who has the greater number.”
“No” having its way.
I would suggest, not two-thirds or three-
fifths, but a simple majority. In this con-
The Hon. N. J. Brown: No!
nection the matter of a quota becomes Mr. HIGGINS: Questions continually
very material. I quite agree that if the arise, and the force of the electors is for
bill is left with the rigid quota of two to the time being concentrated with the inten-
one in the house of representatives, this tion of having a measure carried. To that
proposal will not do. I feel with my hon. end members are returned to the houses of
896 Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
assembly who are earnestly desirous of Mr. HIGGINS: I sincerely hope that
having the measure passed into law.
It
we will for the present accept the proposal
is sent to the other house, and the other of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, which
house says “ No.” In the meantime some is consistent with the rest of the bill in
other question arises which is more urgent, this respect, that if we cannot decide
and the first measure is put aside for the whether the states or the people are to
time being. It is settled for the time have the ultimate decision, we may, by a
being by the party which has said "No" combination of the states' house and the
having its way. I do not think that people's house, get some solution of the
that is fair. It is a device which I have difficulty which may arise.
watched in operation in these colonies The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania)
for years past—a device by which, as I [8:37]: We have had during this debate
think, the reactionary party has for years a great many appeals for some mode of
past obstructed efficient legislation in Aus- arriving at finality. I am about to make
tralia. I hope that in framing the consti- an appeal to hon. members to arrive at
tution we shall see that we have some some sort of finality on the question now
efficient mode of securing finality. After before us.
There has been a very long
all, it simply comes to the old principle and interesting discussion to-day, a con-
that no man can serve two masters. You tinuation, in many respects, of the discus-
cannot have as your final master in this sion which has taken place on previous
commonwealth both the states and the occasions. There are so many gentlemen
people. You must have the sovereignty presenteminent in the legal profession, emi-
in one or the other. The sovereignty in nentas debaters, and very pleasant to listen
England--that is, the real power of govern- to up to a certain point, that some members
ment—is ultimately placed in the House of of this Convention who have taken an in-
Commons. You must have the ultimate terest in the subject very many years be-
power of saying "yea” or “nay” placed fore some of those eminent debaters began
somewhere, and if we frame the constitu- to think of the subject, have willingly stood
tion with something which purports to be a
aside and allowed the debate to proceed,
settlement of the question but which is not, playing the part of patient listeners. But,
we shall be in a sea of difficulties at once. considering the circumstances under which
What I feel keenly and bifterly is, that we have met this evening, and the fact
from my own colony there should come a that the Right Hon. Sir George Turner and
proposal for the dual referendum, which his colleagues from Victoria must of neces-
of all things is the most misleading, which sity leave the work of this Convention, at
will not secure finality, which will be all events, to-morrow evening, it is about
simply a will o'the wisp. People will say,
time that we came to a decision on the
“There is the word "referendum,'" just question before us. Amongst other very
the same as the word “federation." “We pleasant entertainments and reminiscences
follow federation,” say the parrots ;
which we will carry away from Sydney,
follow referendum," say the parrots. It is we have heard the chiming every quarter
a mere word. I decline to be a party to of an hour of those beautiful bells at the
voting for the referendum, which is simply Post Office. We have also had chimes to-
a snare to the people.
day which have been very pleasant to listen
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The hon. to. I might say that the hon. member,
member believes in a referendum which Mr. McMillan, sounded the first quarter
will be a snare to the states !
of an hour's chime. Then we had the hon.
• We
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
897
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
1
member, Mr. Deakin, and the hon. mem- that we would get on very much better.
ber, Mr. O'Connor, sounding the half-hour Unless you, sir, see some mode of putting
chime. Now, I think we might come to that before the Committee in a definite
the conclusion that our eminent legal friend, form, I am not prepared to suggest any
Mr. Higgins, has sounded the last quarter way in which it can be faced. At the
of an hour, so that it is about time that present moment we have to decide whether
the hour struck.
we will or will not accept the amendment
Mr. HIGGINS : The hour and the man proposed by the hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
have both come!
and which embodies the mass referendum.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: Without I would ask hon. members to take my
going into the subject minutely, which warning seriously that they have to be
would be very improper for me to do, see- very careful as to what they are about,
ing the position I take up, that we have because if they do not deal in the manner
discussed the matter sufficiently, I may in which I think they intend to deal with
say that I listened with very great the intervening amendments they may
pleasure, indeed, to the admirable speech find themselves landed in a very awkward
of the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, this position with regard to the proposal made
morning, and also to many other speeches by the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, and to
which have been delivered. It seems to which I believe a very large majority of
me the matter has been sufficiently dis- the Committee are opposed. With these
cussed. - Most of us have pretty well made few observations, only desiring to expedite
up our minds as to how we shall vote when business, not desiring to interrupt useful
the question is put. After the first ques- discussion, but believing that we have had
tion is decided there are several others all the debate that is necessary to enable
which require discussion, and I appeal to us to make up our minds, I would appeal
hon, members to arrive at a decision within to hon, members to come to a decision on
a very short time on the first question before the first point, at all events, as soon as
us—that is, as to whether the first word of possible.
the amendment proposed by the hon. mem- The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
ber, Mr. Lyne, shall remain part of the ques- tralia) [8.43]: I sympathise very much
tion. After that we can discuss seriatim with the opening remarks of the hon. mem-
the several proposals which have been sub-·ber, Mr. Brown. I feel that with four
mittel-that is, as to whether we are or days' debate on the question of deadlocks
are not prepared to add to the amendment we seem to be making little progress. To-
of the hon. and learned member, Mr. day the lawyers have discussed the sub-
Symon, certain alternative provisions, and ject at length, but I feel some diffidence,
as to which I shall say at once Iam perfectly not being a lawyer, in taking part in this
prepared to vote for one or other of them. debate, which bas progressed so long and
It would clear the way if it were possible so far. However, there are a few things I
to put the question in some such form want to say, and perhaps I may as well
that we could arrive at a decision as to say them just now. In the first place, I
whether we will or will not consent to what fancy that many of those who are in the
is generally recognised as a mass referen- galleries of this house must think that we
dum. I think there is a clear cleavage are contemplating, not a federation of
of opinion in the Committee on that friends, not a federation of those who are
point, and if it were possible to at once of one blood, one nationality, but a union
clear that on one side, I should think of some kind or other among those who
898
Australic Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
are only waiting a chance to fly at each that the purpose that this senate is to per-
others' throats. The kind of language we form is to be a check on hasty legislation,
hear suggests the idea that the large colo- to be a brake to prevent too rapid pro-
nies seem afraid that the small colonies gress, to provide for delays here, delays
want to take some advantage of them, and there, and delays yonder.
that the small colonies seem to think that The Hon. S. FRASER : Not a permanent
the large colonies want to take some ad- check !
vantage of them ; in fact, it looks very The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Not a per-
much as if we were trying to create some manent check; but to cause delay until
huge monster, and that the large colonies, the agitation has died out. . Has not the
afraid lest its hands should scratch them, hon. member heard that "hope deferred
want promptly to tie its hands, and that maketh the heart sick"? That is the kind
the small colonies, afraid lest its feet should of thing that some hon, members seem to
scratch them, want to tie its feet. I do not desire to provide checks and delays until
think that is the spirit in which we should those who have started any movement,
view this question. I think, if we look at who have undertaken any task of reform,
the divisions which have taken place here are so weary and sick of the matter that
during thelast few days, we will find a reason they would give it up. That is the way
to abandon that point of view altogether. they want to kill it
.
The cleavage in the Convention has not The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
been between the greater and the smaller The hon member does not want an upper
states. The divisions clearly show that the house?
difference has not been between state and The Hon. F. W. HOLDER:I want an.
state, but the difference has been almost upper house, not to interpose checks and
wholly between those in favour of giving delays, but to be the guardian of state in-
the freest and fullest effect to the public terests; and I want an upper house for
will and those who want to put on brakes, no: other reason. If an upper house be
interpose delays, and provide checks. That asked for anything else, I am not amongst
is the kind of thing we hear about. On those who so ask. It is perfectly clear, if
the one hand, we are asked to give effect hon. members mean what they say, that a
to the popular will, and there is a pretty large number of hon. members desire to so
solid vote here in favour of giving effect interpose checks- and delays. Even the
to the popular will as soon as it can be right hon. member, Sir John Forrest, I
ascertained:
believe, if he spoke his mind clearly, which
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: Going back he generally does, would tell us candidly
from the original proposal?
that he desires to see a strong senate, not
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: The hon, mem- chiefly to protect state interests—that is a
ber is trying to justify his action !
very small part of it-but so that these
The Hon. F: W. HOLDER: I am not checks, brakes, and delays might be inter-
trying to justify my action; I am dealing posed. In regard to that, I am not with
with the remarks which have been made the hon. member at all.
since the resolution to which the hon. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
member refers was passed, remarks which
What does the hon, member have an upper
seem to suggest that it was desirable to house in his own colony for?
maintain a second chamber. What for? The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I should
We heard it-to-day from the Right Hon. be sorry to see a repetition of any errors
Sir John. Forrest, and from several others, made in the past. I say we should take
$
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
899
[20 Septi, 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the good and leave out the bad. As far take place, and for the very action to be
as that is concerned, the cleavage in the taken which I am now taking. Therefore,
Convention is not between the small and if: I am irregular; I have for my com-
the larger colonies, but between those panions a majority of the Convention, and
who wish to interpose cheeks and those I am content to be irregular in such.com-
who do not. I would take the division pany. The remark I made just now as to
on the motion of the hon. and learned liberals and conservatives met with a storm
member, Mr. Symon. I think I am abso- of approval and disapproval mixed; but
lutely correct when I say, though it is a if liberalism and conservatism be classified
little difficult to classify hon. members, upon the lines with which I began, I think
that those who voted for that hon. mem- my remarks will be found to be very near
ber's motion were, with one exception, the truth that those who vote with the
conservatives, and those who voted against hon. member, Mr. Symon, sympathise with
him were all those who are in favour of his views in desiring these checks and
progress and obedience to the public will. delays.
Hon. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!
Mr. SYMON: And those views are liberal!
The Hon. Sir: W. A. ZEAL: What is Mr. HIGGINS: They are liberal in their
progress?
checks on delays !
Mr: WISE : Upper house reform!
The Hon. F. W-HOLDER : Very, but
:
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I expected not liberal in granting the people the right
a stcrm. I am not going to undertake to to do as they want to do the right of the
answer all questions at once. I will deal majority to do as they desire.
with one or two, and with others if they
Mr. SYMON: The hon, member does not
come in later. The hon. member, Sir want the sinaller states to be subordinate
William Zeal, asked what is progress. I to the larger populations?
should have thought he would have known.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: It is not
Ain Hon. MEMBER: Upperhouse reform ! a question of large or small states: Does
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Of course the hon. member want further proof of
if the hon, member desires to be among the
that? If so, I will give it to him. In the
number of those who wish to hinder the division to which I refer, when the hon.
popular purpose, and to delay the attain- member's motion was dealt with, there
ment of what the popular mind has been were four representatives from South Aus-
set upon, I can understand that he does tralia, one of the smaller states, opposed
not know what progress is.
to the hon. member, and only five with
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I do not if
him: That looks as if there were no cleav-
the hon. member is opposing the motion age of states. There were two represen-
of the hon. member; Mr: Symon; which tatives of the colony of Victoria with
has been dealt with. In doing so he is the hon. member, and eight against him.
acting in an irregular way.
That does not look like a cleavage of
The Hon. F. W: HOLDER: If I am states. It looks like a cleavage of policy,
acting in an irregular way, I am at least and when we think whom those hon. gen-
in remarkably good company. I think I tlemen were, we know well that the cleay-
am in the company of nearly all the age was one of policy, and not one of states.
lawyers, and of a very large number of Now, we come to the mother colony of
other members of the Convention. In fact, New South Wales, and do we not find pre-
by a majority, the Convention has given cisely the same thing—that the colony
an express permission for this debate to does not vote: solid, but that there are two
900
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897]
on one side—two tinctured with less liberal
put it this morning that it really did not
views—and that on the other there are matter-that it would not prevent a pro-
eight who are tinctured with more liberal per measure of public opinion if the disso-
views. Thus, I think I have demonstrated lution were consecutive. He put it,"Why
again, in greater detail than I did just should not, to-day, the house of representa-
now, that the cleavage is not one of colo-
tives appeal to its constituents and put one
nies, but one of policy.
side of the question, and then, after some
Mr. MCMILLAN: The hon. member is
months, it may be years, the senate should
becoming the historian of the Convention!
go to its constituents and put the other
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : side of the question ?" The hon. and
Give us a turn !
learned member wished us to believe that
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Perhaps the public mind could be tested, the public
the hon. member wants me to say some- opinion ascertained, as well in that way as
thing about Western Australia. The if the two houses went to their constitu-
youngest amongst all the Australian colo-
ents together. Why, sir, the thing is ab-
nies is perhaps, for the present, the most surd. The hon, and learned member is an
conservative, or if the hon. member likes
able advocate, a most clever advocate. I
it better, I will put it the other way, and should like to know whether he would be
say that the youngest of them all is, for content to deal with any case he might
the
present, the least liberal. It is coming have in court on these lines : would he be
along very nicely, and if the right hon. content to go before the court to-day with
gentleman, Sir John Forrest, remains at his side of the question, present his case to
the head of affairs a few years longer, as the court, and obtain what verdict he
we hope he will, I have no doubt that in
could, knowing full well that, some months
some future Convention we shall be able
later, the other party to the case, who had
to welcome the Western Australians here not the right to appear in the court when
and find them not in the rearguard but in he did, and who had no right to answer
the very vanguard of the progress of these his arguments and deal with the other side
colonies.
of the question when he presented his side
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : _that this other party to the cause should
They are that already!
come in some months later, when he was
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: For the unable to present his view of the case
present we have to take things as they An Hon. MEMBER: There is no analogy
are, and we recognise precisely what they
Mr. SYMON : It is preposterous !
I go a little further, and I ask what The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : It is pre-
is before us just now? It seems to me posterous. My hon. and learned friend
that we have to discuss two or three ques. has correctly characterised the proposal he
tions, and the first and foremost is the one made this morning. It is absolutely pre-
of whether we can clear the way-remove posterous.
the rubbish, so that we may begin to build Mr. SYMON : The hon. member's pro-
afresh. At our feet is this very question posal, I said !
which was carried the other day by a
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The pro-
small majority-which I think will be very posal I have put is analogous to the one
soon rescinded when we get to the vote- the hon. and learned member put to us
the question of the simultaneous or con- this morning. However, I do not want
secutive dissolution of the two houses. to do the hon. and learned member any
The hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, injustice, and I will explain
are.
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
901
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Yes, ex- and learned mernber just now fairly de-
plain it a little more. I do not under- scribed the proposal he made—it is abso-
stand the hon. member!
lutely preposterous.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : I am not The Hon. S. FRASER : Does not the hon
surprised. The hon. and learned member member believe in time for reflection ?
seems utterlyunable to understand speeches. The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: Yes, I do;
While he professes bis inability to under- but I believe in putting both sides of the
stand speeches, yet he criticises them. case, and not hearing one side first and
Well, an hon. member who, without un- then the other side later on. The plan pro-
derstanding a speech, will criticise it-I posed by the hon, and learned member,
think I had better leave that hon. mem- Mr. Symon, is one which I am quite sure
ber alone.
will not be assented to at the final meet-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Would ing of this Convention, if it be agreed to
the hon. member mind explaining, never- tentatively on this occasion. That it has
theless, what he did mean; because I do not been finally agreed to on this occa-
not think any one understood him?
sion is clear froin the fact that we have the
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I will not permission of the majority of the Conven-
begin all over again. It is a little too bad tion to reconsider and rescind the motion.
that, for the sake of one hon. member, I Now I come to the next scheme before us,
should take up the time of the Convention and that is the proposal to give an alter-
for any lengthened period. But as the native dissolution-to enable the execu-
hon. and learned meinber, Mr, Symon, put tive of the day, in place of doing what the
it this morning, that the public opinion hon. member, Mr. Symon, would permit it
would be gauged just as well by one side to do, to order a simultaneous dissolution.
of the case being put to-day, without the I ask those who are on the other side of
other, and then the other side of the case the question to myself what they think of
being put to-morrow
that? Is it not absolutely certain, will not
Mr SYMON: Not without the other ! all those of us who have had any experi-
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : Yes, with- ence of government believe, that with such
out the other.
an alternative, the administration would
Mr. SYMON : No; the electors would on every occasion dissolve both houses
vote!
together? Is it at all likely, is it within
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: The hon. the bounds of possibility, that a ministry,
member's whole contention was that if you dependent for its existence upon members
·let both vote together you would have a of the house of representatives, would send
condition of heated feeling. Was not that that house and not the other house to the
the very essence of the hon. and learned
country at any time? It seems to me
member's argument? He said, "Send the that we are simply trying to rescind our
two houses to their constituents together, resolution without appearing to rescind it,
present the two views of the question at playing fast and loose with ourselves in
the same time, and you have personal feel- considering any such proposition. If we
ing aroused, and political feeling aroused." accepted the proposal at all, it would be
So, in order to avoid these difficulties, he accepted for the appearance of things, and
said, “Put the one case to-day, and put not at all on its merits. The question of
the other case in the future." I was show- a dual referendum has been debated at
ing that that was an utter absurdity, and such length that I do not feel justified in
I claim that the interjection of the hon. going over the arguments again. I can
3 Q
902
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
only sum up the question in these words: early period, but it seems absolutely neces-
It has been admitted by even its advocates sary now that we should consent to an ad-
that a dual referendum settles nothing, journment. When we next meet we shall
but leaves the question where it was at the have not fifty members but ten others,
beginning
sixty in all. Whatever we do now if we
Mr. LYNE : Worse !
adopt that which seems in the light of our
& The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: If possible present knowledge and experience, and
in a worse state, because public feeling with the information now before us the
will have been inflamed, public excitement most perfect scheme, the question will have
will have been intensified, and the whole to be debated over again in another session.
difficulty will have become accentuated. I The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Surely
do not think that those who desire to see
we are not going to drop all our discussion
a dual referendum themselves believe that on the off chance of Queensland coming in?
it would be a satisfactory way out of the The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I will
difficulty with which we are face to face. allow there is great weight in what the
The Right Hon. the Premier of South Aus- right hon. gentleman says; but, even if
tralia has made a proposal which appears we leave that out of consideration I do
to be a very proper one, indeed, and the not like to do so, because I hope to see
more we consider it, the better we shall Queensland in—but, if we leave her out of
like it. I should like, at the same time, consideration for the time-being, we shall
to put this view before the Convention : all have had time for second thoughts upon
The scheme is a somewhat complicated one, the various matters we have been discuss-
and I do not know if any of us at present ing here. Would it not be folly, knowing
are prepared to pass our final judgment that we have three or four months to conne
upon it. The first impression of most of us before we lock the door behind us, to
is favourable ; but, personally, I feel that settle anything now definitely and irre-
I should like to reserve my final judg- vocably?
ment, especially upon some of the details, Mr. LYNE: We cannot settle the ques-
until a few calculations have been made, tion definitely. We shall have to reopen it!
and until some consideration has been The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I know
given to the possible results of the work- that nothing we do will be done irrevoc-
ing of such a scheme. Is there any necessity ably. We are all anxious to make the
to deal finally with the question now? Is it best use of the very precious hours which
of any use? We have put aside another remain to us to deal with the various mat-
question—the question of finance, a ques- ters before us, and the question is whether
tion not more difficult than is this ques- it is of any advantage to do anything to-
tion, not involving more radically the ex- night which would be admittedly and
istence of the federation than does this avowedly tentative, inviting public criti-
scheme, and if we are obliged to put aside cism and provoking debate upon the plat-
that question for further consideration, form and the press, so that when we come
would it not be wiser to deal similarly with together again we may have not only the
this question. I regret exceedingly that advantage of our own second thoughts, but
we cannot finish our work 10w. I had also the advantage of the second thoughts
hoped when we came here that we should and review of very many people outside.
be able to conclude our work this session, I am quite sure that whether we do or do
and that we should be able to appeal for not deliberately wait for that criticism we
the popular verdict upon that work at an shall have it, and we might just as well
I
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
903
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bilt.
wait for it, and instead of spending more that we put it there, because up to this
time now, in considering this subject, it staga it is the best that we can arrive at.
does seem to me that the wise course for Everybody knows that, if we adjourn, our
this Convention to follow will be to de- conclusions at this moment are not final.
termine that, as with the finance question, Those who are friends of this movement
so with this, we will put in pro forma, to will be sufficiently active to explain that
fill the gap, avowedly tentatively, some where we have decided a question, the
provision which shows that we mean to very nature of the case deprives that deci-
deal in some way or other with this ques- sion of entire finality, if-it is a fact that
tion of deadlocks, and that we should wait we are at some time to adjourn in order
before finalising what we do until we meet to enable Queensland to join in our de-
again with the additional wisdom which liberations. But it will never do for us
time and experience will bring us, and to come to a decision on a matter and say,
we settle it, as we shall have to settle it “We have only put that into the bill pro
then, once and for all.
formd—we have put that there only in
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South such a form and under such circumtances
Wales) [9.6]: I do not think that the pro- as deprive you, the public, of the right of
position of my hon, friend who last spoke criticism," It was intended from the be-
would be a wise one for this Convention ginning thatevery stage of our work should
to adopt. My right hon. friend, the Prime be open to public criticism, and we cannot
Minister of Victoria, has stayed here at get away from the necessity of our work
very great inconvenience, under circum- being open to public criticism by simply say-
stances which loudly call for him in his ing, “This is pro formá," or " That is ten-
own colony, in order that he may assist in tative.” We must, within the time limited
arriving at some settlement of this ques- to us, do whatever we are able to do, and
tion. I believe that the settlement to Iintend to ask the Convention to sit during
which we should come on this occasion is all the time that is available to it-to sit
one which speaks our honest voice. I do up to such a time that the clauses of this
not think that it is right that we should bill will, in one way or other, be dealt
adopt some proposal on the mere ground with, and in the dealing with them hon.
that it is only a tentative proposal. I members will express that which we up to
think that there are dangers surrounding then consider it is right and just for us
a course of that kind which only need to to do. We have no right to play with the
be stated to convince my hon. friend who public. Whatever opinions are held about
has just spoken that it would be unwise some of us--as to whether one is a little
to adopt it. When we consider the extreme more democratic or a little more conserva-
activity, the extreme animosity, of some tive than another--we know very well that,
of the criticism which theenemies of federa- being elected by the people, our charge is
tion bestow upon every stage, every act, and from the people, and that we must deter-
every word in the furtherance of the pro- mine our work up to the time at which we
ject, we cannot be too anxious in seeing that have for the time being to separate, in such
whatever we do at this meeting we should a way as to show that we are earnest in
do it up to the time which is limited to us, our work, and are doing nothing formal
in the spirit that expresses the opinions and nothing tentative.
that we have that we do not put a pro- Mr. HIGGINS : I think that the hon.
posal in this draft bill because it happens member, Mr. Holder, has expressed the
to be something for critics to fire at, but same views !
904
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I was going The Hon. E. BARTON: I know that
to say that I think my hon. friend is really a number of propositions have been put
not separated very much from me in opin- before us, and I think it would have been
ion, and that when he used the words better if the suggestion I made this morn-
“pro forma" and " tentative," he simply ing that the decision come to on Friday
meant that we should exercise the best of should be rescinded had been adopted, not
our judgment as to those matters with because it was necessary in passing the
which we can deal in the time which re- vote of rescission that the Convention
mains to us, and that nevertheless we should express its opinion that everything
should allow them to go to the country as in the amendment was bad, but because
up to the time the best provisions that it would have been a good way to open up
had occurred to us. If the country is in the ground afresh, and to arrive at some
favour of federation-as I believe it is, and decision which, after all the arguments
I think that when I speak of the country and opinions expressed, could have had
I am entitled to speak of the continent some chance of expressing with that new
--if the continent is in favour of federa- knowledge our then opinion upon the
tion, there need be no fear that the work question at issue. Unfortunately that
we do will be understood not to be final, course has not been followed. What is
because it cannot be final when we are the position now?
waiting the advent of Queensland, and it The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is one of
is in its essence not final. But it does entanglement !
not follow that we are entitled to put The Hon. E. BARTON: We have
anything in the bill which is merely a carried a proposal for a consecutive dissolu-
pro forma expression of some view which tion, a proposal which in itself is entirely
someone else has expressed, and not the novel, and which, if I may characterise it,
honest view of the majority. I do not means that where there are two houses
wish to make any speech to-night. I think resting upon the same suffrage and deriving
we have had a very full and long discuss authority practically from the same people,
sion on this matter. Let it be recollected and if there is a difference between them,
that this is the fourth day during which because one of them is called a house of re-
these proposals for deadlocks have been presentatives and the other the senate, that
discussed.. I think it is time we came to difference is to remain. The arguments
a division. It is always to be recollected of those who think that there should be
that the decision is subject to review, and a difference between them contradict the
subject to review on our own part, but it position which they set up when they say
must, nevertheless, be regarded as the de that the senate is not constituted as an
cision which animates us upon such infor- ordinary upper house but as a house to re-
mation as we have up to the present time, present the states. If this were a case of
and such argument as has pressed upon mere upper and lower houses, there might
and convinced our minds. We have had a be some reason for the arguments advanced
number of propositions—in fact the whole that one of them should be dissolved before
question is entangled with propositions --- the other. But being constituted in the
An Hon. MEMBER: How many of them way they will be constituted when they
are there?
are established, both of them springing
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not a from the same source and from the same
good arithmetician,
suffrage, and differentiated only in that
An Hon. MEMBER: Five !
the members of one represents districts
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
905
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Aristralice Bijl.
and the other states; the only differ- upper house. If you want to make a
ence between them is that they are so logical distinction between all these things
constituted that one of them represents the you will want three chambers ; but we
generaland national interests and the other, have already resolved that we shall only
not the local, but the provincial and state have two chambers. It is for that reason
interests. That has been the argument of that the functions of an ordinary upper
most of our friends who uphold the posi- house have been cast into the hands of
tïon of the senate, and I am very strongly the senate, which primarily represents the
influenced by the desire to maintain a states. Two houses being called into ex-
strong senate in the commonwealth. But istence in that way, the primary functions
they must not fall away from that argu- of the senate not being those of an upper
ment, and when we seek to apply to house, it seems to me that a great deal of
two popular louses the remedies—if you the argument is wasted as to the position
like to call them remedies, or the appli- of an upper house. A great deal of argu-
ances or instruments if you like-which ment which would be tenable and right
are properly applicable to houses resting in order to prevent an upper house from
on the same basis, they must not go away being dissolved or from sharing the same
from that and say, “ Oh, we make a differ- fate as its contener which is based on the
ence here, because who ever heard of an same foundation, seems to perish with a
upper house being dissolved ?” It is not statement of that distinction. "I was al-
a question of an upper house according to ways, therefore, in favour, from the moment
their form of reasoning. Neither is it with this proposal of a double dissolution came
me a question of an upper house. I agree forward, of the proposal that there should
with them that it is not an ordinary upper not be a consecutive dissolution; but if it
house. It may have to perform some of became a question of taking the whole
the functions of an upper house, because sense of the country in soine such way as
this is a question of bi-cameral legislation would tell the two chambers what the
But those functions of an upper house are country desired, the dissolution should be
intrusted to it simply because it has been a dissolution of both chambers. Now we
already called into existence as a house to have arrived at a difference. I have al-
represent the states, and having that reason ready announced, as far as I am person-
for its existence, it is also called upon to ally concerned, that the proposal made by
exercise the other function of a second the Right Hon. Sir George Turner is to
chamber. If that were not so, you would my mind a superior proposal to that which
have the peculiar anomaly of a constitu- the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, has put for-
tion involving a third house of legislature. ward. I have already announced that,
An Hon. MEMBER: Is not the contin- although I might see it as an ultimate
uity of the senate a very material differ- resort in a state which was not federal, I
ence ?
cannot see in a federal state the justice of
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes; but I applying the general referendum.
was not touching upon that point. I was Mr. LYNE: Does not the Right Hon. Sir
saying that unless you have three cham- George Turner's proposal depend upon
bers of legislature you must have a cham- adhering to the proposal already carried,
ber representing the people according to that of the hon. member, Mr. Symon?
districts, another chamber representing The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not know
states as states, and that chamber dis- that, because the proposal of the Right
charging the ordinary functions of an Hon. Sir George Turner starts as an alter-
906 Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
native. But I was going to make an ex- The Hon. E. BARTON: It is not only
planation which I think will satisfy my possible to do it, but I think perhaps that
hon. friend. I said that as between the the common sense of the country will be
two proposals put forward I have always satisfied if we agree to a double dissolu-
been of opinion that there should be a re- tion without first resorting to the expedient
sort to the principle underlying consti- of my hon. friend Mr. Symon’s alterna-
tutional government: the principle of re- tive, because I do feel rather strongly that
sponsibility of members and ministers be- if there is to be this dissolution on account
fore resort is made to any such instrument of a deadlock, while you may wire draw and
as the referendum. I think I explained hanımer a theory, and wire draw and ham-
that at such length that it is not necessary mer it again, you still get back to this posi-
to state it again, except very briefly, be- tion, that a dissolution is the constitutional
cause I thought, and I still think, that a method of ascertaining the opinions of the
direct application of the referendum is an people with regard to elected houses; and
abandonment of that feeling of respon- having once grasped that principle it would
sibility, and because I think that after we seem a curious thing to abandon it with
have taken all this trouble to convince our regard to one house, and to maintain it.
neighbours of the small states that you with regard to the other; so that if I had
can only govern this federation accord- to choose, if we had nothing before us but
ing to the ways we know as Britishers, this question whether we should have a
that you can only govern according to
consecutive dissolution or a simultaneous
the principles of responsible government-
dissolution, I should be in favour of the
if you once convince them, either by your
latter. But we seem to have got beyond
arguments or by that very potent argu- that stage. We have a lot of other pro-
ment of a vote, that you are going to apply posals. My hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, wants
that principle of responsible government; to tack on to a consecutive dissolution,
having said that that heritage of ages which against which I voted, a further proposal
we possess as constitutional government, that there should be a general referendum
as responsible government, is a thing we in case of need ; and my right hon. friend,
must all stick to in this constitution, I Sir George Turner, wants to tack on to the
have always been of opinion that we are
consecutive dissolution a power for a
not very consistent, that we are not very
double dissolution and then for a dual
true to the arguments we put forward, if, referendum.
having once enunciated that principle, we The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I want
turn to an expedient which is calculated it in lieu of the other !
to sap and undermine responsible govern-
The Hon. E. BARTON: My right hon.
ment, and that is the referendum. Well, friend wants to tack on to a consecutive
having felt that, I consider that we have dissolution an alternative power for a
now, in the discussion which has proceeded
double dissolution and then for a dual
to such lengths, dropped into a most un- referendum in case of need. I omitted
fortunate position. I believe we would the word "alternative.”
have done well perhaps, had we agreed to
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Not to tack it
a double dissolution, and I believe we on, but to substitute it!
should do more perhaps now, if, as the
The Hon. E. BARTON: He wants to
first step in what we are going to do on this add to it. He wants to give that addi-
head, we do agree to a double dissolution. tional power,
tional power, that the governor shall have
An HoN. MEMBER:
two powers in his hands—that is to say, he
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
907
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
on the
can either give a consecutive dissolution the other states to agree to a form of
or he may give in place of that a simul- constitutional government. We are not
taneous dissolution of both houses, and consistent if we add to the method of con-
then in case of need there shall be a dual stitutional government something which
referendum.
looks very pleasant and very innocuous, but
Mr. SYMON: I understand that he has which will be the first instrument resorted
given way—that he only wants the dual to by a minister in order to save the skins
referendum !
and necks of his colleagues and his sup-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am told by my porters. We do not want that. I have
hon. and learned friend, Mr. Symon, that said already that in the last resort I would
his understanding is that my right hon. support some form of referendum, but I
friend, Sir George Turner, is ready to give must be tireless in saying that I support
way about a double dissolution and to tack any such thing as a last resort, as a pro-
power of the dual referendum only posal which I have to accept in deference
to the consecutive dissolution. I should to some public opinion with which I do
like to know if that is so ?
not agree, because I cannot conceive of a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Not man being true to the cause of federation
to tack it on; I do not like that word! yet saying that he will withstand that de-
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will use any mand until he gets exactly what he wants.
other form of words my hon. friend pre- We can never get federation on those
fers.
terms. Therefore, much as I am against
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I am this principle of the referendum, I will
quite willing to accept the double referen- submit to that under certain limitations,
dum in lieu of the proposal of my hon.
and those limitations are these : that the
friend. It is only the strong arguments responsibilities of ministers and members
of the leader of the Convention that in- must first be recognised. Their responsi-
duced me to agree to the double dissolu- bility is only to be conserved and accen-
tion.
tuated by a dissolution. Now we come
The Hon. E. BARTON: I am very
to a different set of principles. My hon.
much obliged to my right hon, friend. He, friend, Mr. Lyne, accepts that proposal,
therefore, comes back to his original pro- and he proposes to add on to it a general
posal, that the dual referendum shall be referendum.
an alternative to a consecutive dissolution. Mr. LYNE : I should prefer the dissolu-
I have already stated that, as far as I am
tion of both houses at once !
personally concerned, I do not accept a The Hon. E. BARTON: My hon. friend
referendum as an alternative to a dissolu- accepts the proposal with regard to a dis-
tion, and for this particular reason : that I solution whether consecutive or simul-
cannot accept any alternative to the proper taneous, and proposes to add on a general
responsibility of ministers and members to referendum. There I am at issue with
the country which brought them into their him, because I have said already that I
places. It is all very well to tell us that think that a general referendum cannot
the dissolution does not settle the question really be a just method of determining
in specie—that it does not settle the par- a dispute in which the interests of the
ticular question, and that the referendum states are inherently and thoroughly em-
does. That is not necessary to my argument. bedded. I hold that opinion still, and
And the main argument is this : that we whilst I might under certain circumstances
have forced, I will say by our arguments, see the justice of the referendum in a
--
908
Australia Bill.
Connmomoealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
state constituted like New South Wales, to in those matters which belong to the
or any one of these colonies, which do not nation apart from provincial entangle-
rest upon the federal principle, I cannot ments, and the dual referendum is to be
reconcile my mind to what is called the resorted to for matters which belong to
justness of the proposition, when it is the people of the provinces, and subject
committed to one of the parties to a dis- to those entanglements, that will bring us
pute to settle the dispute with the other to the conclusion that these matters should
party. Then in what position are we be subject to a dual referendum and not
left? There is the dual referendum. As the general referendum. But then I fall
I ventured to say in a speech last week back upon this, that much as I am in
my difficulty about the dual referen- favour of adopting some proposal for the
dum is this : that whilst I concede that settlement of deadlocks, I find that if we
some of the most important proposals have to resort to a general referendum we
which may emanate from the govern- refer to one party in the dispute as to a
ment in this commonwealth may be called a method which is effective and not just,
national in their application, from the whilst by the other course we revert to
fact that they apply to every citizen in a method which all the representatives
the nation ; yet if they are, such proposals of the small states seem to regard as just.
as finance, military matters, the regulation But the argume it is used that it is not
of trade and customs, immigration and emi- effective; but there is no man who be-
gration, and so on, they are so wrapped up lieves that disputes will go to the length
in themselves with matters which are vital of reaching referendums who can come to
to the state that it is impossible to dis- the conclusion that the dual referendum
entangle these things, and the result is does not run into some danger of being
that if you try to say,
- That matter is ineffective—that it may be perfectly just,
a state matter," you are met with the but that it may be ineffective. Then, if I
answer, Yes, but it is also a national
may put my position, I should like to
matter."
You can say on the other place it in this way: I was perfectly pre-
hand, as some hon. members say, “This pared to adopt the double dissolution. I
is a national matter," but you are met was not prepared to adopt a consecutive
again with the answer, “yes, but it is also dissolution. I was prepared to adopt some
a state matter.” And it is a state matter method of dissolution which would be at
in most cases; and I put the illustration the same time effective and just. I have not
as I put it before, that if you wish to make been able to find a combination of justice
a federal tariff a question whether you are and effectiveness in the general referendum.
going to leave a surplus over and above I have not been able to find a combination
the requirements of the commonwealth of of justice and effectiveness in the dual
£1,500,000 or £4,500,000, that is a ques- referendum, because where one prepon-
tion of what the financial policy of every derates in favour of justice it is ineffec-
state is to be. I, of course, wait for in- tive, and where the other preponderates
struction in the matter ; but I cannot in favour of effectiveness it is unjust.
conceive the reason or truth of any asser- . Therefore, if we can find a means for
tion that that is not a matter in which the solution of difficulties which avoids
the very existence of every state as such the referendum I, for one, so long as
is involved, and the well-being of the it is a means which conserves the ordin-
commonwealth is involved. Therefore, ary principles of responsibility, and is a
if a general referendum is to be resorted fair means for the settlement of disputes
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
909
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
between a free people, am willing to wel- The Hon. E. BARTON: I am not quite
come a proposal at least to that end. I sure about that, because after all, if we
think that is where we are now.
once think of a proposition of this kind,
Mr. LYNE: Then what will we do? we are debating then about what is the
The Hon. E. BARTON: My hon. friend proper majority to secure the reasonable in-
asks me what then we shall do. The first dependence of the house of representatives
on the one hand, and of the senate on the
thing we ought not to do is to admit my
other; and I was inclined to think that a
hon. friend's proposition. We find our-
selves then in this position : that we are
majority of three-fifths would be sufficient
to show that. That would mean, in two
all in favour of some solution of dead-
locks.
conjoined houses of 112 members, 67%,
and, as you cannot cut a man into five
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I am not !
pieces and take three, it would mean 68.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I beg my hon. .
Are we continually, as I put it a little
friend's pardon. I quite omitted him; while ago, to wire-draw and hammer, and
more than that, I was very unfair. When hammer and wire-draw again, about the
I said we were all in favour of it I meant
ultimate effect of constitutional proposi-
that we had carried a vote by 30to 15.
tions? Are we not to try to adopt some-
I did not mean to disparage the 15 in any thing which will be the most convenient,
way.
the least expensive, the most effective, and
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I have the least unjust of the proposals we can get
satisfied myself since that a number of adopted for making a constitution work-
the fifteen are dissatisfied !
able? When I say making a constitution
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think there workable I mean this : this constitution
are a number of us who are dissatisfied would be entirely workable without any
about nearly all the propositions which of these proposals. But when I say work-
come before us, and that is the natural able, in the second sense of the word, I
result of trying to tinker up a constitu- mean workable according to the beliefs and
tion with artificial and paper experiments. ideas of the people, and I believe that the
But I have never faltered in saying this: people of the states, and the people of the
that I consider this constitution as it
commonwealth that is to be, would welcome
stands, would have been sufficient without any solution of the difficulty which did not
any of these experiments. But if public necessarily lead to an accumulation of that
opinion demands the adoption of some ex- terrible process of voting which some of
periment, let us try to arrive at one which our politicians here so much deprecate. I
will combine effectiveness with justice. A heard a gentleman in one of the houses
proposal has been brought forward that if
of our legislature say that under this
a deadlock exists, and is not solved by a federal constitution a man would never
dissolution-and I should prefer that pro- be done voting—that a man would not
posal to saying that if a deadlock exists, be able to swallow his breakfast before
and is not solved by a double dissolution he would have to go to a municipal
then the two houses shall sit and vote election to cast his vote, and before he got
together, and by a majority of two-thirds to his lunch he would probably have cast
or three-fifths, whichever it is to be, that bis vote in a provincial election, a local
majority can carry a bill.
government election, and a federal election,
An Hon. MEMBER: Two-thirds would and then somebody might say to him,
be better than three-fifths !
“Come along here, you have not finished
•
910
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
yet; come and vote at a referendum.” Is solutions or referendums or anything else,
it not rather a serious thing to contem- We are here for the purpose of making a
plate, that we are multiplying these occa- machine which will be the vehicle of the in-
sions of voting, that we are asking our tentions, and the will of the people of the
people to vote, vote, vote about this and country; and if we succeed in any way in
that, until they will become so tired of applying some method which, in the case
voting that they will say, “A plague
“ A plague of a difference between the two houses,
, will
o' both your houses ?" If, then, we can lead to a settlement of that difference
arrive at a reasonable solution of this without inordinate expense and without
difficulty, which may not be according inordinate delay, then, after all, does it
to the theories of economists and philo- not seem a good thing that we should make
sophers, but which may give its proper an effort to apply that instrument instead
weight to the decisions of the two houses of running hair-brained into our theories ?
in such a way that it will be an ultimate My belief is that there is a great deal to
solution, which in the majority of cases be said in favour of the proposal that
will not cause an irritation in the state or there should be a sitting together of the
jar and confusion in the commonwealth ; two houses. I have postponed saying
if we can do that, without necessarily what I am about to say until this moment.
rushing out into the country and making I think it will be remembered that, in dis-
speeches in favour of the adoption of some cussing this proposal about deadlocks at
proposal as to a dissolution or a refer- Adelaide, I said if you were going to
endum, my belief is that our fellow coun- plaster something on to your engine to be
trymen will not be angry with us but will called a safety-valve—and I do not think
thank us. I said a little while ago that there is much of the safety-valve in any of
I was not bound down at this stage of our these things—then the best thing you
proceedings absolutely to the adoption of could do was to put on to it the least os-
any proposal ; but I cannot help thinking tentatious and least expensive thing. I
that there is a great deal of good sense in am not in favour of, nor do I care about,
the suggestion made by the Prime Minister the enormous expense of a lot of dissolu-
of this colony. I should prefer myself tions and referendums, knowing as I do
that the proposal for the two houses to sit that the federal election must have cost
together should follow a dissolution of both the five colonies between them something
houses, so that the one house should not like £40,000 or £50,000, or at any rate
have it in its power to penalise the other, £30,000. I am not in farour of expedi-
and that whatever good was to be got out ents of this kind unless I see that the
of a general election should, at the same actual necessities of the people, the pre-
expense to the country, be got out of both servation of their liberties, require such
houses as well as out of one.
things, in which case I should think no
Mr. HIGGINS : That is what Mr. Carru- expense too much, unless I saw that there
-thers wants !
was some other means of conserving the
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes, I under- liberties of the people without unduly sad-
stand so. I say I prefer that. But I think dling and burdening them. I think we may
we shall be unwise if we go with our avoid the undue saddling and burdening
political guns trying to shoot every politi- of the people by adopting the suggestion of
cal hare of theory that we can possibly the right hon. the Premier of New South
find in the country. We are not here for Wales. Every one knows that the hon.
the purpose of devoting ourselves to dis- gentleman and myself do not camp in the
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
911
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
same place politically. Everyone knows that that has been urged with any consequence
we have been very much at loggerheads in and effect against it is that in some places,
provincial politics; but I think the hon.. such as the United States, there has been
member will give Mr. Reid and myself a steady and regular number of the mem-
credit for this, that we are anxious to bers of the senate-that that house has
adopt some reasonable method of getting not been increased, although the number
out of this difficulty without much expense, of the house of representatives has been
änd, at the same time, preserving every
increased; but I find that that argument
attribute of liberty to the people. To this comes from a number of gentlemen who
end we ought to leave off hair-splitting, and have frequently told us that we ought not
take to what is in accordance with common- to rely upon the example of the United
sense and reason. Now, I do put it to this States or of any other federation. That
Convention, that while as between the pro- does seem to me to be an application of a
position of the right hon. the Premier of maxim with which we are acquainted in
Victoria and the proposition of Mr. Lyne, law, “The argument from inconvenience
I must vote with the right hon. the Pre- matters much.” When gentlemen who
mier of Victoria, since these two pro- have told me that we ought not to apply
posals were put before the Convention, we certain theories and practices in our con-
have had brought forward another pro- stitution, because if we do so we shall be
posal which is eminently deserving of the copying them from some other constitu-
consideration of every man among us who tion, turn round and tell us that we ought
favours the preservation of the popular to apply certain arguments and theories
liberties, and their salvation from undue, at this stage because we shall be copy-
unnecessary, and burdensome expense. ing them from another constitution, I do
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It will neces- not see any consistency in their position.
sarily mean that the ratio between the In reply to the interjection of the hon.
two houses will be preserved !
and learned gentleman, I must say that I
The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon. and have not yet seen the injury to his colony
learned member is right there. I suppose -the injury to any colony—that will fol-
that the less populous states will be disin- low from the application of the quota sys-
clined to support this proposal unless they tem, and I do not believe that the main-
found there was to be some reasonable pro- taining of a certain proportion between
portion maintained between the number of the two houses will do anything which will
members in the senate and the number of take away from the prestige, the influence,
members in the house of representatives. or the command of the house of represen-
Upon that supposition, which I ought in tatives which, though I believe that there
fairness to make, I can quite see the ob- will be a strong senate, I believe will be a
jection urged by my hon. friends on the stronger house than the senate. I do not
other side from Victoria to the quota ; yet, wish to detain the Committee any longer,
having considered and weighed them, I I only thought it was right that I should
have not been able to come to the con- make this explanation in regard to my
clusion that Victoria will, any more than own views, because, as between the two
will any other colony, suffer from the ap- amendments, I wish to restate that I
pre-
plication of the quota principle, nor do I fer that of my right hon. friend, Sir George
see any inherent injustice in maintaining Turner, to that of my hon. friend, Mr.
the ratio of one house at the low ratio of Lyne; but, since the new amendment has
one-half of the other. The only argument been suggested, which has been spoken
912
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
by the righthon. member, Mr. Reid, and the ary methods in British constitutions of
hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, I cannot help settling disputes by way of dissolution,
thinking that both those amendmentsthrow and the less you complicate all your pro-
a great deal of added light on the situa- posals by unnecessary dissolutions, refer-
tion, and it may be that it would be a wise endums, votes, or anything else--the sim-
thing if the Convention were to adopt pler and shorter you make your business
some proposal such as that, and avoid all in this regard-then the more I shall be
the difficulties, all the dangers, not to the likely to support the proposition.
provinces, but to the commonwealth itself The CHAIRMAN : Before I put the ques-
that is to be—all the dangers that would tion I think I should intimate to the Com-
arise from the constant practice of making mittee that inasmuch as we have now dis-
fresh occasions for votes, and the great cussed this question for four days, the time
expense that would accompany that—and for general discussion will pass when this
I think that, on the whole, I shall think it amendment is disposed of, and I shall ask
my duty to vote with my right hon. friend, hon. members afterwards to confine them-
Sir George Turner, as I announced I would, selves to the particular amendment under
against the proposal of the hon, member, discussion. I will first of all
Mr. Lyne; but I will still hold myself free Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9:49]:
in relation to the amendment suggested by Before you put the amendment, sir, I
my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid.
should like to address a few words to the
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Committee. As the division that is likely
What does the hon. and learned gentleman to be taken is a critical one, I ask the
propose to do as regards the provision that attention of hon. members for afew minutes
has already been carried a successive whilst I try and support some of the argu-
dissolution?
ments advanced in favour of the position
Mr. Symon : The proposal of the right that I intend to assume on this occasion.
hon. member, Mr. Reid, could follow upon We have several methods proposed for the
that!
settlement of deadlocks. We have also
The Hon. E. BARTON: The proposal of had the suggestion made that whether any
my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, could fol- such provisions are or are not adopted, the
low upon that; but I am not going to ship of state will not be in danger. I stand
conceal my opinion—I think I have ex- by the position which I originally took up-
pressed it earlier in the remarks that I that if, in this constitution, no provision be
have made that I do not think that a made for deadlocks very little harm will re-
proposition like that, standing in the way sult. I agree with the hon. and learned mem-
it does, is one that it would be advisable ber, Mr. Deakin, in the remarks which he
to adopt; but that a proposal providing made at the beginning of the debate to-
for a dissolution of one or both houses, if day, that in dealing with this question we
followed by the proposal that my right have laid rather too much stress upon the
hon. friend, Mr. Reid, has made, would be necessity of making these provisions, and
deprived of a great many of its objections, we are raising in the public mind a fear
and I would take that rather than I would that, if a particular method of solving
take nothing-I would add it on to the these difficulties is not adopted, the feder-
proposal of my hon. and learned friend, ation, from the point of view of one state or
Mr. Symon, rather than I would take of another, will become a dangerous experi-
nothing. But the more I put it in this ment. I do not share these feelings, because
way—you conform yourselves to the ordin- I think that we have been dealing with ex-
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
913
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ceedingly remote possibilities, and not with methods of solving these difficulties, either
probabilities, of difficulty. But we have of which I shall be prepared, if obliged to
to face the fact that there is prejudice in do so, to adopt. I believe that the sugges-
regard to the establishment of a provision tion of the hon, member, Mr. Carruthers,
against deadlocks, and that I desire to re- is one which the Convention, consistently
spect it is the apology which I offer for with what ought to be conserved by the
departing from opinions which I would representatives of the smaller and of the
otherwise stick to tenaciously. I say this larger states, might affirm, of course, upon
because I do not believe in a referendum the understanding that the numerical pro
of any kind. I think that as a matter of portion of representation will be preserved.
general policy it is very strongly to be It has been objected by the hon, and learned
condemned. It would be a mistake under member, Mr. Isaacs, that this principle, as
consolidation, and therefore in accepting applied to constitutional amendment in
it, or rejecting it, my idea is to assist the France, has been condemned by Mr.Burgess,
federal cause.
I do not accept it because I and according to his testimony has broken
think it would be in all respects efficacious, down. I would like to show by twoinstances
or that it is the remedy required. Hon. only, how it has really operated in France.
members who suggest the referendum to I believe that, in the French Constitution,
cure these imaginary disorders have not it is provided that if the senate, by an
the courage of their convictions, because absolute majority, decides that a constitu-
not a single exercise of the referendum tional revision is to take place, and the
which affirms the desirability of a particu- Chamber of Deputies, by a similar majority
lar law will make that proposed law legis- does the same, the two must come together
lation. We have had suggestions for a and form the National Assembly, and the
referendum from New South Wales and revision is madeupon the voting of an abso-
from Victoria ; but, with the exception of lute majority of that body. Hon. members
the solution suggested by the hon. member, are told, in effect, that if we amalgamate the
Mr. Carruthers, there has not been one pro- two houses here, we shall have the numeri-
posal wbich would be final in its operation cal disparity which exists between them
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The suggestion individually existing under the amalga-
of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, is not mation. But what are the facts in France?
necessarily final!
The figures which I will give to hon.
Mr. LYNE : It is not final in the way members on the point are striking. In
the hon. member proposed it !
1884, about seven or eight years after the
Mr. GLYNN: I understood that the adoption of the constitution, in one of the
hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, proposes most crucial divisions in the National As-
that if, after the dissolution, two-thirds of sembly, the point which had to be decided
the joint houses decide upon a certain was one that vitally affected the strength
course, that course will become law, upon of the Senate. If we find the voting going
· being recommended on address to the on as it would under consolidation, it is a
governor. If that is so, it is final. If it
very strong argument in favour of the
is not, we are continuing this academic amendment of the hon. member, Mr. Car-
discussion to absolutely no purpose, and ruthers, because it will show that the mem-
the result will lead to harm. By making bers of the two houses vote, not according
provisions for deadlocks wbich are not to their respective numbers—I think the
final, you will be keeping up ferment and proportion between the Senate and the
turmoil in the state. There are two Chamber of Deputies in France is three to
914
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
five—butlargely according to their personal The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : I
views of the subject under consideration. was not laughing at that. I did not hear
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They do not it!
vote as representing separate states !
Mr. GLYNN: Whatever may be the
Mr. GLYNN: No, but at the same
cause of the hon. member's cachinnation I
timo they represent constituencies infi- know that he has strong opinions as to
nitely stronger in prejudice; they represent state rights which might lead him to sus-
classes. Besides it is a case of one house pect a proposal from a large state. I would
against the other. In a federation you ask the representatives of the small states
find states divided on matters of consolid- what more could they ask than this pro-
ation and not on state interests. In a posal made by the Victorian representa-
division taken in 1875, the voting was 526 tives, that is, that even after the mandate
against 249, and in 1884, in a division in of the people is given by the referendum it
the National Assembly as the result of a is not to be final even as regards the action
prolonged agitation upon the point in
of the senate ? Even after the referendum
dispute, the division was 509 against 172. they say, "we will leave you in the posi-
I, therefore, think that if you keep up tion in which you were originally, trust-
the numerical proportion between the ing that the voice of the states and of the
senate and house of representatives as de- people will ultimately lead to a moderation
termined already in previous clauses, the of the views of the senate, and that the
smaller states can with perfect security legislation desired will be passed.” I ex.
to their so-called state interests accept the ceedingly regret that my friends did not at
solution offered by the hon. member, Mr. the very beginning accept the olive branch
Carruthers. Again, I am prepared to vote that was offered by Victoria. If it had been
for the solution offered by the hon. meni- accepted it would have saved us a great deal
ber, Mr. Isaacs, or the Right Hon. Sir of trouble. Then we have the suggestion
George Turner, on the part of Victoria. made by the Right Hon. C. C. Kingston;
I exceedingly regret that some of my col- but an objection which is exceedingly
leagues and other representatives of small strong against that is this : that for the.
states have been riding this horse of state sake of getting a referendum upon a state
interests to death. There is very little in question you make provision for a referen-
this fear that the smaller states will suffer. dum in all unitarian matters. That is to
What did the hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, or take place simply because you are driven
the Right Hon. Sir George Turner, sug- to the necessity of making a referendum
gest? That you should have the double on a state or federal question.
referendum, and that even after a double
Mr. SYMON:
referendum was taken if the vote was in Mr. GLYNN: Certainly, after the
accordance with the policy. of the house
double dissolution. But on a matter of
that initiated the legislation, still the legis- abstract policy which is applicable to a
lation should not pass; that there should federation, the hon. member says you must
not be finality. They were prepared to introduce the general referendum, because
trust to the expression of opinion of the there is a necessity for introdncing the
two electorates, and the effect it would referendum to settle the clashing of in-
have upon the common sense of the house terests between state and state. I object
that blocked the legislation. The Right
The Right to it, because I think that the referendum
Hon. Sir John Forrest laughs at such a as a matter of policy ought not to be
suggestion from Victoria.
adopted. The principal matter we have
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
915
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to discuss, and the one upon which all the have reached a very critical stage in our
argument really has turned, has been what deliberations, a moment which really will
is suggested by my hon. and learned friend, test the mettle of which men are made
Mr. Symon. As a matter of fairness to which will make a very large draft on the
the large states, I cannot see how the temperance and judgment of the members
representatives of the smaller states should of the Convention, and I hope that in our
support that. It certainly destroys the voting our patriotism will be shown to
power of initiation in the lower house. have risen to the level of the emergency.
The Hon. N.J. BROWN: How can that be! Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [10:3]:
Mr. GLYNN: Undoubtedly, it does Before I say a few words
that.
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL:
Several HON. MEMBERS : No!
Mr. LYNE: I will be just as long as
Mr. GLYNN: If the lower house is to I like. The hon. member cannot “sit” on
be dissolved on a matter of legislation me as he “sits” on the members of the
which is blocked by the upper house, and Legislative Council of Victoria. I have
you have to wait for six months and again remained here very quiet all day, and I
dissolve that house, the house of repre- should not have risen to say a word now
sentatives never will introduce very radical had it not been for the speech of the hon.
measures, because they will know that it and learned member, Mr. Barton. After
will, or fear that it may, mean the extinc- he decided, first one thing, and then another
tion of some of their number. The sug-
The sug- thing, and then nothing at all, I think it
gestion of my hon. and learned friend, Mr. is about time for me to say something. I
Symon, is first dissolve the house of repre desire, first, to know in what position we
sentatives, wait for a time, and then dis-
are regarding the proposal before the Com-
solve the two houses. To do that would be mittee. I understand that the actual ques-
absolutely to impose a penalty on the in- tion before the Committee is the omission
troduction of radical legislation. The dis- of the word “if.” That is the first word
tinction here will be between the senate of the amendment I moved in connection
as the conservative house and the house with the mass referendun. What I want
of representatives as the radical house, and to know particularly is whether, in voting
I think hon. members should bear that in
on that question, it is intended to be a
mind in considering what they are likely vote for or against the mass referendum?
to do on this question.
I am prepared to submit to the will of the
An Hon. MEMBER :
majority of this Convention ; but I am
Mr. GLYNN : It may be the present determined, if possible, to have a straight-
practice in all the states ; but the position out vote on the question of a mass refer-
is altogether different in a unitarian sys- endum or no mass referendum.
tem, because there is not the same apology An Hon. MEMBER :
for the action of the Legislative Council Mr. LYNE: I will tell the hon. mem-
as there will be for the action of the states ber the reason why I am determined to
house ; its full strength is embedded in the have a straight-out vote on this question. It
constitution itself, and the position is alto- is that I will use it hereafter. I would be
gether different. I will not detain the much obliged to you, sir, if you could tell
Committee any longer. I trust, whatever me at the present stage whether it is to
decision is arrived at, it will be one that be understood that in voting on the ques-
will lead to moderation and temperance on tion to omit the word “if,” it is to be a
the part of hon, members. I believe we vote for or against a general or national
916
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
referendum, or whether, in view of that vote. All I ask is that I may be allowed
word being expunged, the amendment of to get an opportunity for a straight-out
the Right Hon. Sir George Turner, then vote on my amendnient.
omes in, and is voted upon; and if the Mr. WISE: The hon. member will get it!
word “if” is rejected, the amendment that Mr. LYNE : I quite understand that, as
I have given notice of will be voted upon ? the Chairman said, if the word “if" is
The CHAIRMAN: I think that a test vote knocked out, and the words proposed by
will have to be taken upon the word " if,' the Right Hon. Sir George Turner are put
because if the word is struck out, and if in, and the words proposed by the hon.
the amendment of the right hon. member and learned member, Mr. Wise, come after
is amended by the hon. and learned mem- them, they will be inconsistent with my
ber Mr. Wise's amendment to insert cer- amendment, which cannot then be put.
tain words, they would be inconsistent with Mr. WISE: That is not so. If they are
the remainder of the clause as proposed by all carried, it will still be open to the hon.
the hon. member, Mr. Lyne.
member to rnove his amendment !
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : The The CHAIRMAN : The bon. member can
last words of the amendment are "as here- move his amendment on Mr. Wise's amend-
after mentioned.” It seems to ine that ment.
it is quite competent to submit a proposal Mr. Wise: I should like to ask if the
for a dual referendum on whicli an amend- word “if” is omitted and a blank is created,
ment might be mored for a mass referen- and then there is a proposal by Sir George
dum, or it is quite competent to submit a Turner to fill up the blank, and if my
proposal for a mass referendum on which amendment is rejected, and Sir George
an amendment can be moved for a dual Turner's is carried, whether it will not be
referendum. Then we shall get a straight- still open to the hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
out vote.
to deal with the question of the referen-
The CHAIRMAN: Of course it is a ques- dum as a distinct question ?
tion for the Committee to decide, not for The CHAIRMAN : That is so ; but other
me, as to whether it will take a test vote hon. members may more other amend-
upon any particular word. All I want to
ments.
point out is that if certain words are struck Mr. SYMON : I might suggest that it
out, and certain other words inserted—and would be better if the Riglit Hon. Sir
I cannot know what words will be inserted, George Turner would withdraw his amend-
I do not know what will be proposed, and ment to strike out the word " if," and
we have already six or seven amendments allow the hon. member, Mr. Lyne, to take
--if words inconsistent with the mass refer- a straight-out vote.
endum are inserted, a question with regard HON. MEMBERS: No!
to the mass referendum cannot be put. The Right Hon. Sir G, TURNER : The
Mr. Lyne : Then I wish to point out hon. member, Mr. Lyne, might withdraw
that I may be left in this position : that I his amendment for the present.
may get no straight-out vote on the motion Mr. LYNE: No!
of which I have given notice.
Mr. SYMON: I do not suggest that with
The CHAIRMAN : It all depends upon the a view to bringing about the result that
words that are inserted in lieu of the word my hon. friend, Mr. Peacock, is alarmed
at. Either what I have suggested should
Mr. LYNE: I shall not consider that I be done, or else the hon. member, Mr.
have been treated fairly if I do not get a Lyne, should withdraw his amendment,
[Mr. Lyne.
66if."
.
".
Commonwealth of
917
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I put.
because undoubtedly, under the last words the national referendum which will mean
of the Right Hon. Sir George Turner's a reconsideration of the whole position of
amendment, it will be competent to move equal representation. But we do want, in
an amendment in favour of either a mass case our proposals are rejected, to be per-
referendum or a dual referendum.
fectly free to consider the question of the
Mr. LYNE: I am afraid that we are no national referendum.
nearer to an answer to the question which Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [10:12]
The hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, has just put
The CIIAIRMAN : The only answer that the position as I do not want it put, and I
I can give is this : that the hon. mem- am not going to allow it to be put in that
ber's amendment will be put, unless in way if my amendment will prevent it.
lieu of the word “if," if it is struck out, When I gave notice of my amendment, I
some words are inserted inconsistent with said that the reason I gave notice of it then
his amendment.
was because, if we did not take a vote on
The Right Hon. C.C. KINGSTON : I de- the national referendum first, I should be
sire to point out that really the amend- precluded from voting for any of the other
ment of my hon. friend, Mr. Lyne, will provisions. I look upon the national re-
not follow in its proper place if put now, ferendum as coming first, and I shall vote
because it provides for what is to happen against every other provision until I get
after a dissolution of both houses of the an opportunity of voting for it. If the
federal parliament. No such dissolution proposals come in the manner suggested
is yet provided for.
by the hon. gentleman, I shall be precluded
Mr. LYNE : Yes !
from voting for the amendment of the
The Right Hon. O. C. KINGSTON : Of Premier of Victoria, for the aniendment of
both houses.
the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, for the
Mr. LYNE : Yes.
amendment of the Premier of South Aus-
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out that tralia, and for other amendments, until
the amendment of the hon. member, Mr. I come to my own.
I think there are
Symon, dealing with the dissolution of a number of others who are in ex-
both houses has been carried. The pro- actly the same position. I should like to
posal of the hon, member, Mr. Lyne, is to meet the leader of the Convention in every
add words to that amendment.
possible way ; but at this particular time
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I should like I do not want anything to be carried if I
to say that I hope the question will be put can avoid it. I recognise that the chances
so that we may first have a vote on the are that I shall be beaten; but I recognise
question of a double dissolution. Then also that I am not going to be placed in
we may have a vote on the question of the the position, if I can avoid it, of having
dual referendum.
to vote against every other proposal, be-
Mr. LYNE: No thank you !
cause I affirm that the proposal I have
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : And in case made is the one in which the people of the
that is lost we may have an opportunity colonies believe. Therefore, I have no right
of voting straight out on the question of to vote, nor would a number of other hon.
a national referendum. We have taken members have a right to be called upon to
up the position all through that we wish vote, for other propositions which may ex-
loyally to abide by the question of equal clude a vote on the national referendum.
representation. We do not want to be The Hon. A. DEAKIN : They cannot
forced into the position of having to go to exclude it!
*
3 R
918
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. LYNE: Yes. Supposing theamend- an unfair and unjustifiable position, and
ment of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, be obliged to wait until
be obliged to wait until you have got half
which seems to be in favour at the present a dozen proposals, or, at any rate, one or
time, is carried, what becomes of mine? two, which will take the sting, or take the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : The hon, mem- virtue, out of the proposal I am making at
ber can move it in addition !
the present time, so that it will fall flat
Mr. LYNE: No, I cannot, because it upon bon. members, who will be able to
is antagonistic.
turn round and say to their constituents
An Hon. MEMBER: No, it is not ! and others, “We could not vote for the
The Hon. E. BAPTON : Cannot the hon. proposal for a national referendum, be-
member, if we fail on the two-thirds or cause we had got something in the consti-
three-fifths majority, move later on there tution before it." I shall be as brief as
shall be a national referendum ?
possible in the few remarks I am going to
Mr. LYNE: I might go on filtering for make. In the first instance, it seems to
years before I got to that. I shall have to me that we commenced this Convention
be in parliament as long as the bon. mera- on a wrong basis. For this we have only
ber, Mr. Douglas, has been, in order to get our own parliaments to blame. In the in-
a referendum. I want, if I possibly can, to itiation of the Convention we should not,
take a decisive vote on the word “if.” That by allowing ten representatives to each
is the proper position. It is unfair to me, colony, have gone to that extent in equal
having offered the first amendment, that I representation of the states. Were it not
should be precluded from having a vote on that the present time we have in the
that amendment by other words being Convention ten representatives from each
brought in which puts it on one side and of the smaller colonies, and only the same
prevents any definite decision being arrived number from each of the larger colonies,
at. Depend upon it the people of this we should not have been brought to the
community are watching us at the pre- position in which we find ourselves at the
sent moment with very great interest, and present moment.
watching the politicians very keenly on this An Hon. MEMBER: We should not have
particular point, and I do not wish any been here !
shirking of it. I have not shirked the Mr. LYNE: Yes, we should have been
question from the time we entered the Con- here. I regret exceedingly that some of
vention at Adelaide. I have taken up a the members of the larger colonies gave
certain position from that time until the way, and offered and held out to the smaller
present. I have never varied in my mind colonies what was not asked for in the first
or in my expressions one iota from the instance. We should not have been placed .
position I took up then. I do not desire in the position we find ourselves in to-night,
at this last moment to be foisted out of had it not been that a great deal was
that position by amendments brought in
offered to the smaller colonies before it was
by other gentlemen after the amendment ever asked for.
Had not an undue pro-
of which I gave notice. I ask you to rule, portion of representatives from a minority
sir, that those who vote for the exclusion of the people, but from a majority of the
of the word “if” vote against the national small states, been here in this Convention,
referendum.
we should have had more proportionate
HON. MEMBERS : No!
representation in the first instance, and we
Mr. LYNE: That is the proper course should have been in a position now to have
to take. I hope I will not be forced into dealt with this question without undue
[Mr. Lyne,
Commonwealth of
919
[:20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
theat, and without disproportionate votes. when Victoria had the rope round her
What chance has a colony like the one I neck, should we have a proposition within
represent, when she is surrounded on three forty-eight hours to rescind a vote founded
sides with thirty votes to ten, in framing upon a combination of small states against
a constitution which should be equitable large states? We have had a lesson dealt
to that colony, which is twice as large in out to us in this respect, and I feel that I
population as the other three colonies put am called upon to express my views in no
together?
unmeasured terms. I did express my
An Hon. MEMBER: No!
view of another proposition in no un-
Mr. LYNE : Yes, twice as large, and measured terms in South Australia. And
even larger. I am coming back to first I say now that if those hon. members who
principles in this question. Hon members voted for equal state rights in South Aus-
who know they have that majority here tralia had commenced at the foundation of
can afford to laugh at what I am saying the trouble, and had not allowed the mat-
now; but the people of this colony cannot ter to go over until the present stage of
afford to laugh. The people of this com- our proceedings, we should have a more
munits have to look forward to what may equitable, a more just, and better proposi-
take place in the federation if the Com- tion submitted in this Convention in the
monwealth Bill should ever become law. shape of proportional state representation
What have we seen since last Friday, with a minimum, and, if you like, with a
since that vote was taken last Friday, in maximum, than you have in the proposal
reference to which vote my right hon. for a referendum. I feel that the trouble
friend, Sir George Turner, said that it was to which we are brought at the present
a combination of small states against the time is, to a large extent, due to the in-
larger ones?
terim proposal of my right hon. friend,
An Hon. MEMBER : He has withdrawn Sir George Turner, a proposal which, to
it!
my mind, is worse than no referendum at
Mr. LYNE: That is in his mind now, all; it mixes the whole thing up from the
and I was glad to hear him saying what start, and I was more than surprised to
he did. I say it now.
The hon, member find the representatives of the sister colony
said in effect that there was practically a of Victoria coming down with a proposal
combination of the smaller states against for a dual referendum which is to be ap-
the larger states. That was to all intents plied only after it is impossible to arrive
and purposes correct. Now it is proposed at a decision between the house of repre-
to take the unusual course of asking hon. sentatives and the senate, between the
members, like the right hon. the Premier people's house and the states' house. What
of Western Australia, to come down within do you propose by means of a dual referen-
forty-eight hours after giving a vote for Mr. dum to do? To refer the question, what-
Synon's amendment, to rescind their vote. ever it may be, to the states, to return,
This is done for what reason? It is done
It is done probably, the same men with the same
for the purpose of inducing New South opinions, if it be truly a state question, to
Wales to enter a federation; but if a vote come back doubly supported and empha-
of this kind took place in such a federa- sised in the position they took up against
tion I should like to know whether there the representatives of the people in the
would be such a proposal made as that first instance, not reducing or getting
which is now before us? When New away from your deadlock at all, but em-
South Wales had the rope round her neck, phasising it and making the possibilities
920
Australia Dill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
of serious trouble greater than they were an absolute solution of any difficulty that
in the first instance.
might arise ; but whilst doing that, let
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But the referen- me be clearly understood to be not alto-
dum does not return men at all!
gether opposed to a referendum so much as
Mr. LYNE: The hon. and learned I am against equal representation in the
member is trying to catch me.
senate. I would much prefer to see pro-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No!
portionate representation in the senate,
Mr. LYNE: Yes, he is. He knows
or nearly so—I do not say it should be
what I mean perfectly well. The hon. and equal, I do not say at the present time
learned member knows perfectly well that we need require it to be equal, but I do
his proposal and the proposal of the other say that I think that we could have laid
representatives of Victoria was for a dis- down a scheme which would fairly have
solution, and that the dissolution of the satisfied the smaller as well as the larger
senate was to send those people back, and colonies, and then, with a dissolution of
when those people returned again, then both the house of representatives and the
the referendum was to come as a referen- senate, and with proportionate represen-
dum to states which would support those tation, I should have been quite prepared
people as they were returned on the dis- to have allowed the referendum to pass
solution of the two houses. The hon. and altogether. For that reason I am forced
learned member knew perfectly well that into a position which I do not like, as
that was what I meant, and every word much as I should have liked proportionate
what I have said applies in that case, and representation, and I certainly believe and
it emphasised the trouble which would, in I hope that before this Convention ulti-
the first instance, be created by the differ- mately finishes its labours, we will get
ences between the states of the people and back again, as we must, to the discussion
the country. Hon. members can bring of proportionate representation of the states,
forward as many proposals as they like; and the remarks made by the bon. mem-
they cannot get away from the one bed- ber, Mr. Holder, are, I think, very apropos
rock of the people of the country; that is at the present time. He says, “Why go
the one bedrock from which they cannot to a division on this question; why deal
get away. There are five proposals be- with a question now which we know is not
fore us at the present time.
We have the to be dealt with finally ?” And the leader
proposal which I have made for a national of the Convention, the hon, and learned
referendum, which is the voice of the member, Mr. Barton, acknowledges that
people, and, by the way, let me say again, this is practically a tentative provision.
even with the fear of repeating what I said The Hon. E. BARTON: I did not say
the other night, that the referendum I do that!
not prefer, and I was only forced into Mr. LYNE: The hon, and learned gen-
that position by the vote the other after- tleman took exception to the word “ten-
noon which provided for a dissolution of tative”; but he says that it is a propo-
the house of representatives, and, I think, sition which we have to reopen and redis-
afterwards a dissolution of the senate, but cuss again in the future; and, with Queens-
not a simultaneous dissolution. I was then land coming into this Convention, I take
compelled to take some further course, as it that there is not one provision, that
far as I could then see my way, the only there is not one clause, with which we
course, and as far as I can see my way 'have dealt during our meeting at Adelaide
now, the only course, to try and arrive at and during our meeting here, which we
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of
921
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Australic Bill.
will not have to rediscuss over and over they are not bound together upon the
again ; and that being so, I think the principles and lines upon which they de-
words that fell from the hon. member, Mr. sire to be bound together. Let me adduce
Holder, are particularly applicable at the one argument to show that public opinion
present time that it would be wise to is travelling fast. In 1891, the ideas which
wait and see how far we can harmonise have been put before this Convention
our views before we are forced into the would have been flouted. Though an im-
position of voting on this question. We portant proposition was then proposed by
have five proposals submitted to us. We the hon. member, Mr. Deakin, it was,
have the proposition of the hon, member, practically, not considered by the Conven-
Mr. Carruthers, which, as submitted in tion of 1891. At Adelaide, the proposals
print, means, first of all, a certain filtering now made were put on one side. Since
process, but that the groundwork of every- then we have had the criticism of the
thing is to be a national referendum. Now press and of the public upon these pro-
I understand that the hon. gentleman is posals, indefinite as they were when before
proposing to strike out the provision for us in Adelaide.
We find them being
a national referendum-and we shall then treated very differently by the Convention
have only a vote by a two-thirds' majority now. What are we to expect wlien minds
of the houses sitting together. I do not and principles are travelling so rapidly?
say that probably it is not one of the best What are we to expect to find when we
proposals, if not the best proposal; that meet in Tasmania or Victoria, or one of the
has been made ; but I have had placed in other colonies three or four months' hence ?
my hand within the last few minutes a
I think that we shall have the concurrence
proposition by the right hon. member, Mr. of Queensland, and that if we cannot get
Kingston, wherein he makes another pro- proportional representation in the senate,
posal which, if it can be worked out on the the national referendum will be accepted.
figures, I think is also a good proposal.
Mr. WALKER: Queensland wants equal
We are now called upon to vote upon representation !
these propositions at a moment's notice. I Mr. LYNE: The hon, member does not
mention this to show that we are being live in Queensland, and I presume that he
called upon to vote upon questions about does not know much more than I know
which we should have had some time to about what Queensland wants. It will
deliberate.
depend entirely upon the manner in which
The Hon. E. BARTON : Has not the hon. the elections there are conducted as to
member already had four days ?
what will be desired by the representatives
Mr. LYNE: No; I have had only four of Queensland. If the elections are con-
minutes to consider the last proposal, and ducted as they were conducted in New
I have had only two hours to consider the South Wales and Victoria, the whole
proposal of the hon. member, Mr. Car- colony being treated as one electorate, we
ruthers. I think it would be very much
shall have a set of men sent here favour-
better, if, instead of giving a vote upon the ing proportional representation in the
question now, we fairly and fully con- senate ; but if Queensland is split up into
sidered it. This is an all-important mat- various electorates, we will have men sent
ter to the whole of Australasia. It is an here who will support the principle of
easy thing for any of the states to join in equal state rights. I wish to emphasise
the federation; but it will be impossible the opinion that it would be wise and
for them to withdraw if they find that proper for the Convention to wait until
922
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
520 SEPT., 1897.1
we are joined by Queensland, instead of this way—That the word " if" be left out
rushing this matter to a vote nearly in the in Mr. Lyne's amendment.
middle of the night. The whole question Mr. LYNE : That is to be the test of my
has been debated during the last three or amendment !
four days, but we have not had the par-
HON. MEMBERS : No!
ticular proposals to which I have referred The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : As a point
before us. It seems to me that a great deal of order, I protest against its being taken
of the trouble has been caused by the vacil- as a test.
lation of the representatives of Victoria, The CHAIRMAN : That is not a point of
who have not stood straight upon the prin- order. It is not for the Chairman to say
cipal of the referendum. If they had stood that a particular word is to be a test or
fast we should have had a different state not. I cannot decide that.
of things. All I can say is that I wish to The Hon. E. BARTON : The decision that
emphasise my statement that we must and the word " if” shall or shall not stand part
should be compelled when Queensland comes of the question is not a final determination
in to reconsider the whole of these prin- of the question of a general referendum.
ciples. Therefore the vote which is to be It is not and it cannot be. The meaning
given now is an absolutely false vote that of it is that if the decision is adverse to
will not stand when we re-assemble. There- the proposal of the hon. member, Mr.
fore we should not be called upon to give Lyne, the Committee does not adopt a
that false vote; but, of course, all I can do general referendum as following a conse-
is to protest against the action now being
cutive dissolution. It does not mean that
taken. When an opportunity comes, as
the Committee does not adopt the general
far as I am personally concerned, I will referendum with reference to any other
not swerve from the course I have adopted. possible position that can be imagined. It
Whenever the opportunity offers to submit simply says that a general referendum as
to the people or the Convention the prin- following upon the consecutive dissolution
ciple of proportional representation, I shall is not adopted by the House. It means
do my best to carry out what I advocated no more than that. It is not a decision
in the first instance.
against the general referendum in any
The CHAIRMAN : I will put first the pro-
other feature.
position in the ordinary technical parlia- Mr. LYNE: I direct your attention, sir,
mentary language--that is, that the word to this fact: that on a previous occasion on
"if” proposed to be left out in the pro- a very important matter the question of
posed addition to the words inserted in the word " if” was taken as a test.
the proposed paragraph of the proposed An HON. MEMBER : We refuse to do.
new clause stand part of the proposed so to-night!
addition to the proposed new paragraph- Mr. LYNE : The other night, when a
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: May I motion was moved for the purpose of de-
just say that it will be a very great pity ciding whether or not there should be pro-
that the really serious issue which my hon. vision made for deadlocks, the vote was
friend, Mr. Lyne, is submitting to this taken on the word “if."
Convention should be put before us in
An Hon. MEMBER : It was a matter of
such a form
agreement !
The CHAIRMAN: As I stated, I put the Mr. LYNE : I think it is very unfair that
question first in the technical parliament- I should be met in this way when I want
ary language. I now put the question in a straight-out vote, by a number of mem-
[Mr. Lyne.
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 923
bers who wish to vote on other questions Question proposed :
first. It seems to me, in fairness to the To insert “ Provided that in lieu of dissolving
proposition I have made, especially with
the house of representatives the proposed law
may be referred to the direct determination of
the precedent we have already established
the people as hereinafter provided.”
when the word wif” was taken as a test
of a most important question, that the Upon which Mr. Wise had moved :
Chairman should reverse the decision at
That after the words "house of representa-
tives,” line 2, the following words be inserted :
the present time for the purpose of getting "alone in the first instance, both houses of par-
in something else which will take away liament may be dissolved simultaneously : Pro-
the sting or power from the amendment vided that the senate shall not be dissolved
which I have moved.
within a period of six months immediately pre-
ceding the date of the expiry by effluxion of
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to time of the duration of the house of representa-
the hon. member that it is not within the tives. And if after such dissolution the pro-
province of the Chairman to dictate to the posed law fails to pass with or without amend.
Committee whether they shall or shall not
ment."
take a test vote on the question to omit a
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [10:43]:
particular word. The Chairman can make
I only want to say one word on this to
a suggestion, and that is all. If no further
make it clear to the Committee what we
amendments are moved, except the amend- are voting upon. This question affirms
ment of the Right Hon. Sir George Tur-
that, before any question arises as to the
ner, and that of Mr. Wise, after these application of a referendum, whether dual
words are inserted, if they are inserted, I or national, or before any question arises
will put the question “that the remain- as to the meeting of the two houses as one
der of the clause stand," and then the hon. house, there shall be a simultaneous disso-
member can take a straight-out vote on
lution of both the house of representatives
that.
and the senate, and it further provides to
Mr. LYNE: Then I would ask my hon.
meet the objections which were raised prin-
friend, Mr. Carruthers, not to move his cipally by my hon. friend, Mr. Holder,
amendment until that vote is taken !
that there can be no dissolution of the
The Hon. J. H.. CARRUTHERS : I am senate during the last six months of the
willing not to move my amendment until life of the house of representatives. That
a division is taken on my hon. friend's amendment has been framed in order to
proposal !
meet the views of those who hold that
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [10:41]: I
there should be a double dissolution, and
intend to move an amendment to the pro-
the views of those who hold that the
posal of my right hon. friend, Sir George double dissolution should not be made
Turner, if it is put, to leave out the words available as a scourge to the senate in the
"hereinafter provided," and to insert the hands of a ministry. It is an alternative
words "by having a referendum." The pro-
to the proposal of my hon. and learned
posal of the Right Hon. Sir George Turner friend, Mr.Symon, and not a negation of it.
is, in lieu of dissolving, to refer the ques- The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
tion to the people by a dual referendum, (Victoria) (10:44]: I would point out to my
I will not be in a position to vote for hon. and learned friend, Mr. Wise, that
other than a national referendum.
he used the expression “there shall be
Question-That the word “if” stand a dissolution." That is not so, because the
part of the amendment-resolved in the government of the day will have the option
negative.
of selecting one or the other.
924
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. WISE: Quite so.
I am much six months immediately preceding the date of
obliged to my hon. friend !
the expiry by effluxion of time of the duration
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South such dissolution the proposed law fails to pass
of the house of representatives. And if after
Australia) [10.45]: I opposed the con- with or without amendment the proposed law
current dissolution as first proposed, be-
may be referred to the direct determination of
cause it would be the means of constantly
the people as hereinafter provided.
penalising the senate without inflicting The proposition now consists of the amend-
any penalty whatever on the house of re-
ment of the Premier of Victoria as amended
presentatives. The amendment moved by by the hon. member, Mr. Wise.
the hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise,
The Hon. E. BARTON: I take it that the
removes this objection to a great degree, adoption of the proposal of the Premier of
and, therefore, I will vote for it.
New South Wales would come to this :
Question—That the words (of Mr. Wise's that, after the words “ the proposed law,"
amendment) proposed to be inserted in Sir
we should insert, in place of the remaining
George Turner's amendment) be so in-
words in the question the following words :
shall forthwith be submitted to the members of
serted—put. The Committee divided :
the two houses deliberating and voting together
Ayes, 25; noes, 20; majority, 5. thereon, and shall be adopted or rejected accord-
AYES.
ing to the decision of a majority of three.fifths
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
of those present and voting on the question.
Barton, E.
Kingston, C. C.
That would embody the proposal of the
Berry, Sir G.
Lewis, N. E.
Premier of New South Wales.
Brunker, J. N. Lyne, W. J.
Mr. LYNE : It was understood that that
Carruthers, J. H. O'Connor, R. E.
Clarke, M. J.
Peacock, A. J.
should not come in before I moved the
Cockburn, Dr. J. a. Quick, Dr. J.
motion in reference to the national refer-
Deakin, A.
Reid, G. H.
endum !
Fysh, Sir P. O. Solomon, V. L.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I want to save
Gordon, J. H.
Turner, Sir G,
Hackett, J. W.
the Committee from any complications. I
Walker, J. T.
Higgins, H. B.
T'eller,
am not at the present moment anxious to
Holder, F. W.
Wise, B. R.
move this amendment ; but, if we leave
NOES.
the words 66
may be referred to the direct
Briggs, H.
James, W. H.
determination of the people, as bereinafter
Brown, N. J.
Leake, G.
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
provided,” we declare for some sort of re-
Dobson, H.
McMillan, W.
ferendum. 'If, on the other hand, as the
Douglas, A.
Moore, W.
clause is now, we reject those words, we
Forrest, Sir J.
Symon, J. H.
reject the whole clause. The hon. mem-
Fraser, s.
Venn, H. W.
Grant, C. H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
ber, Mr. Lyne, wishes to insert the word
Henning, A. H.
"national," so that it will read "may be
Henry, J.
Teller,
referred to a national referendum as here-
Etowe, J. H.
Downer, Sir J. W.
inafter provided."
Question so resolved in the affirmative. Mr. LyNE: I desire to strike out the
The CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the words “hereinafter provided” with the
question :
view of inserting “by a national referen-
That the following words be inserted in lieu
dum !"
of the word "if" :-“Provided that, in lieu of The Hon. E. BARTON: The difficulty
dissolving the house of representatives alone in
the first instance, both houses of parliament may
is this : If we get down to those last three
be dissolved simultaneously : Provided that the words,
words," as hereinafter provided," and
senate shall not be dissolved within a period of there is an attempt to substitute the
+
Commonwealth of
925
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
words " by a national referendum," and Turner's amendment has not been inserted.
those words are negatived, then the words It will be competent to raise the issue of
" as hereinafter provided” remain part of a national referendum in the way the
the question, and there is a decision not Chairman proposed--that is, by inserting
for a national referendum, but for some after the word "referred” the words
form of referendum. If the intention of " by a national referendum."
That is a
the Committee is to adopt the proposal of convenient way of doing it. It does not
the Premier of New South Wales—that at all follow, as the hon. and learned mem-
is to say, that there should be a reference ber, Mr. Barton, suggests, that we should
to the two houses sitting and voting to- then, if Mr. Lyne's amendment is nega-
gether-it will be impossible to put that tived, deal with the amendment proposed
proposal at that stage, because the stage. by Mr. Carruthers. That amendment can
applicable to it will have been passed. I be proposed as an alternative, or added to
only wish to save the Committee from my amendment for a successive dissolution.
any complication that may arise.
There are many hon. members, amongst
An Hon. MEMBER : But if Mr. Lyne's others myself, who will not vote for the
amendment is inserted ?
amendment of Mr. Carruthers, if it is at-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Then the national tached to the simultaneous dissolution
referendum will be carried. But if it be embodied in the Right Hon. Sir George
rejected, the difficulty will be that we shall Turner's amendment. I only want to
have got passed the words “referred to make that quite clear so that there shall
the direct determination of the people," be no misapprehension.
and we shall not be able to put in the Mr. LYNE : Is not the simultaneous dis-
words, "referred to a determination on the solution included in Mr. Wise's amendment
part of both houses."
already inserted ?
The CIIAIRMAN : I would suggest as a Mr. SYMON : Yes, but so that there
way out of the difficulty that the hon. should be no misunderstanding, Mr. Car-
member, Mr. Lyne, should move an ruthers' amendment may be put as an
amendment to insert after the word 6 addendum to my amendment already car-
ferred” the words “by a national referen- ried, and the Right Hon. Sir George
dum."
Turner's amendment ought to benegatived.
Mr. LYNE: I shall be quite willing to It is not essential that we should engraft
do that!
Mr. Carrutbers' amendment, as explained
Mr. SYMON (South Australia)[10:58]: to us by Mr. Reid, upon Sir George Tur-
Before my hon. friend does that, I should ner's amendment, but we can ingraft it
like to direct attention to what the position upon my amendment which has been car-
is. The amendment which was carried on ried. I only say this so that there shall
my motion on Friday is still existing. The be no misunderstanding.
proposal of my right hon. friend, Sir George Mr. WISE : There will not be any !
Turner, is now before the Committee in the Mr. SYMON: There certainly will not
shape in which it was amended by Mr. Wise. be any on my part. Although if it is
The CHAIRMAN : The hon. and learned attached to the successive dissolution of
menaber must recollect that these words the two houses, I shall vote for Mr. Car-
have not yet been inserted.
ruthers' amendment in preference to the
Mr. SYMON: That is what I under- dual dissolution, I shall vote against it if
stand, and that is all I wish to call atten- it is tacked on to a simultaneous dissolu-
tion to The Right Hon. Sir George tion of the two houses.
re-
3 s
926
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Amendment (by Mr. LYNE) proposed : Mr. Lyne: The right hon. gentleman has
That the words " by a national referendum been playing tricks with me all through.
to " be inserted after the word “referred," line
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
12.
am in favour of a dual referendum, but if
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic-
toria) [11.1]: As I have pointed out on
I cannot get a dual referendum
several occasions, I am not prepared to
Mr. LYNE: If you get the word “dual”
put in I will vote against my own pro-
vote for a national referendum if I can
position.
possibly avoid it, although I am prepared
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Had we
to vote for a dual referendum. Now the
not better go to a vote?
object and effect of taking the motion in
this form is that we shall be compelled to
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
think I have sufficiently explained to the
vote against the insertion of the word
Convention that my desire is to have a
« national." If we reject that we can
dual referendum. If I fail to get that
afterwards reject a proposal to insert the
I shall support a national referendum, and
word “dual,” in which case there will be
to test the question I move the amendment
no referendum at all.
which I have already submitted.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That is
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [11.3]:
exactly what will come about !
In good faith, Mr. Chairman, I accepted
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is
your suggestion ; but if my proposal is to
what ought to come about !
be manipulated in this way by the right
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It
hon. gentleman, who did precisely the same
will not come about, if we can avoid it.
thing when I moved a direct referendum
We want a straight out division upon
the
before
question, whether there is to be a "dual”
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Hear,
referendum or a "national” referendum.
hear. He blanketed you every time !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : The test Mr. LYNE: I do not think it is a
will be upon Mr. Lyne's amendment.
dignified position for the right hon. gen-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: No, tleman to take up in this Convention. I
the test will be upon the word “dual.” certainly think it is fairer to decide the
I move :
larger question, before you decide the
That the word " dual” be inserted before the
smaller one.
I feel very sorry for the
word “national” in the proposed amendment.
action of the hon. gentleman in trying to
Those who are in favour of the dual referen- shirk a straight-out vote upon the ques-
dum can vote for it. If we fail to insert tion of a national referendum. It is pre-
the word " dual” it will be still open to cisely what he did before. He intercepted
those of us who desire a referendum of an amendment upon my former proposi-
some sort to vote for the word "national."
tion, and he has now intercepted another
I cannot vote in the first instance for a
amendment to shirk a straight out vote.
"national” referendum.
I accepted the Chairman's proposal in all
Mr. LYNE : The right hon. gentleman is confidence.
upsetting. everything I have done. Why The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Since
is he afraid to vote upon the straight out the hon. member thinks that I am endea-
question of a national referendum ?
vouring to put him in a false position, I
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I will withdraw my amendment altogether,
-am not prepared to reject both kinds of and will vote against a national referen-
referendum.
dum !
Commonwealth of [20 SEPT., 1897.] australia Bill.
927
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South sent moment, we maintain the position we
Australia) [11.5]: I am sorry that this put before, that if the dual referendum is
course has been taken. I think that the
not carried, we are bound to support the
hon. member, Mr. Lyne, has made a mis- national referendum.
take.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
Amendment (by the Right Hon. Sir G. Australia)[118] : Supposing it is carried ?
TURNER) by leave withdrawn.
I do not quite understand now what the
Mr. GLYNN : By way of personal ex- position of the Victorian representatives
planation, I wish to state that the right is. We heard the views of the Premier of
hon. member, Sir Edward Braddon, feel- Victoria interpreted by the Attorney-
ing unwell, asked me to pair with him on General, and we had a threat from the
any motion that would liave the effect of Attorney-General.
rescinding the motion proposed by the hon. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Not at all!
member, Mr. Symon. I considered that if The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Un-
the right hon. member, Sir Edward Brad- doubtedly there is no possible way out of
don, had been here he would have voted it. The Attorney-General of Victoria told
against the adoption of the addition pro- us that if the dual referendum were not
posed to the clause by the hon. and learned carried he held himself bound to vote for
member, Mr. Wise; consequently, I con- the national referendum.
sidered myself under an obligation to pair The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Certainly ; I
on that, which, if I had been present, I said that days ago !
would have voted for, while the right hon. The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: But
member, Sir Edward Braddon, would have
the Attorney-General of Victoria did not
voted against it.
tell us whether, if the dual referendum
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER (Vic- were carried, he would feel himself bound
toria) (11:6] : If hon. members reject the. to support that right through the Conven-
words "by a national referendum” I will tion, at all times, in all places.
not be able to move iny amendinent to The Hon I. A. ISAACS : Most certainly!
insert the word “dual."
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: At
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Oh, yes, the adjournment-right through?
the right hon. gentleman will ; we all The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Most certainly!
understand that!
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) is the position in which the hon. and
[117]: I should like to make my position learned gentleman undoubtedly stands.
clear. On the present occasion I think
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes; that has
that the course proposed to be taken
been my position all through !
by the right hon. member, Sir George
Question - That the words, "by a
Turner, would have been the best way to national referendum," proposed (by Mr.
get a distinct vote on both questions. The Lyne) to be inserted be so inserted-put.
right hon. gentleman has felt himself com-
The Committee divided :
pelled, by the observations made by the
Ayes, 10 ; noes, 36 ; majority, 26.
hon. member, Mr. Lyne, to allow that
AYES.
hon. gentleman to proceed with his amend
Berry, Sir G.
James, W. H.
ment. I want it distinctly understood-
Brunker, J. N. O'Connor, R. E.
Carruthers, J. H. Reid, G. H.
we all want it distinctly understood-
Deakin, A.
that although we are not prepared to sup-
Higgins, H. B.
Teller,
port the national referendum at the pre- Holder, F. W. Lyne, W. J.
928
Australia Bill.
Commonwcalth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Noes.
am going to oppose the insertion of this
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
provision for a dual referendum, which
Barton, E.
Kingston, C. C.
Briggs, H.
will make the proceeding, as I understand
Leakc, G.
Brown, N. J.
Lee-Stcere, Sir J. G. it, a dissolution of both houses and a dual
Clarke, M. J.
Lewis, N. E.
referenclum. I intend to vote against the
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. McMillan, W
insertion of the words “by a dual refer-
Crowder, F. T.
Moore, W.
Dobson, H.
Peacock, A. J.
endum ”upon the lines which I have laid
Douglas, A.
Quick, Dr. J.
down, that, as far ils I can see, the best
Downer, Sir J. W. Solomon, V. L.
solution of this difficulty will be that if,
Forrest, Sir J.
Symon, J. H.
after a dissolution of one house, the house
Fraser, S.
Turner, Sir ai.
Fysh, Sir P. O. Venn, H. W.
of representatives, there is no agreement,
Glym, l. M.
Walker, J. T.
that thien tlic two houses should sit to-
Grant, C. H
Wise, B. R.
gether, and that a three-lifthis majority
Hackett, J. W. Zeal, Sir W. A.
should decide. I wish it to be understood
Henning, A. H.
Henry, J.
Teller,
tliat, in voting against the dual referendum,
Howe, J. H.
Gordon, J. H.
I am prepared, if it majority of lion. mem-
Question so resolved in the negative. bers are prepared, to accept the solution I
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I have indicated as upon the whole, perhaps,
now desire to insert the words " by a dual the most satisfactory to the whole of the
referendum.” I propose this amendment interests concerned.
simply to test the feeling of the Conven- Mr. Wiss: My vote will be given on
tion as to whether we are to have a dual exactly the same lines !
referendum. I move :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I wish to say
That the words “by a dual referendum" be
inscrted after the word “referrcd,” line 12.
a very few words.
The Right Hon. G.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [11.13]: I
H. Reid need not have any doubt as far as
Victoria is concerned.
handed the words “for a national refer-
So far as the small
endum" to the hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
states are concerned, I am sure they wil!
because I understood that he desired to
not accept his proposal unless the present
ratio between the two houses now in the
deal with the question himself; but with
bill is adhered to. As far as Victoria is
regard to the proposal for a cual refer-
concerned I am sure that that will never
cndum, I altogether dissent from the view
wliich was expressed just now that, if this be agreed to
amendment is carried, we can go back to The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
the proposal for the establishment of the (Western Australia) (11.17): Supposing
national referendum. I do not want mem-
that the house of representatives should
bers to be led into voting for the dual re-
be dissolved, and if, after the election, the
ferendum under the bclief that otherwise disagreement still continues, according to
we shall be face to face with the national the proposal of the Right Hon. G. H.
referendum.
Reid the matter is to be referred to both
The Right IIon, G. II. REID (New houses sitting together, a certain majority,
South Wales) [11:14]: I think we are by. I presume to decide. I think that is the
these divisions gradually coming to the
best solution of the difficulty.
mind of the Convention. I am not going
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The present
to make any observations upon the matter,
quota to remain ?
because I think that lion. members are The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
fully possessed of the whole question. I Yes.
Yes. I want to know how that proposal
Commonwealth of
929
[20 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
will agree with the amendment of the hon. stance, both houses of parliament may be
member, Mr. Wise, which was adopted a dissolved simultaneously? I understand
few minutes ago ?
that has been already passed. If that is
An Hox. MEMBER : That involves the already passed it is useless to say that we
dissolution of both houses !
have not agreed to a dissolution of both
Mr. Wise :
houses. I voted for it, and I did so because
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: it was to bring about a dissolution of both
The Right Hon. G. H. Reid just in- houses simultaneously.
formed us that it was a dissolution of one The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to.
house.
the hon. member that nothing has really
An Hon. MEMBER : No; two houses ! been passed yet.
The Right Hon. Sir JOIN FORREST: I
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) (11.20]:
know exactly what he said !
Whilst I will support the amendment re-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : I can
ferred to by the right hon. gentleman, Mr.
only speak for myself. I have studied the Rcid, whether it applies after the succes-
views of hon, members of the Convention
sive dissolution of both houses or whether
in this matter, and I find that it is abso-
it applies after the dissolution of one house,
lutely impossible to get a dissolution of
still it seeins to me that it will be neces-
the two houses. I would have infinitely sary to negative the amendment of the
preferred it myself, but that is not the right hon. member, Sir George Turner, as
issue at all.
amended by the amendment of the hon.
The CHAIRMAN : The only question at
and learned member, Mr. Wise.
issue is the dual referendum.
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It will
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
come to that!
Wales) [11:18] : Hon. members have been
Mr. SYMON : I only wish to make
endeavouring to make their position clear.
clear my position that in voting against
Lest my position should be mistaken, and
the insertion of the word “dual," I do so
people are sometimes apt to mistake one's
intending to vote against the proviso alto-
position, I wish to state that I never have
been in favour, if I could avoid it, of any gether
, with the view to falling in with
system of referendum. I prefer the dual
the suggestion of my lion. friend.
referendum to a national referendum in
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) (11.22]:
cases in which state rights are involved.
I would point out that it is open to every
But if I can get a better way out of the
hon, ineinber to vote against every pro-
difficulty which provides for the settlement posal which is put with the view of destroy-
on constitutional grounds of those ques- ing the effect of the amendment of the
tions, and that I find in the proposal put Right Hon. Sir George Turner to dissolve
forward by my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, both houses. But those who desire to
then I think it is most constitutional and
work in the spirit of the determination
right to follow that course. Therefore, I
come to by the Committee will hold to the
shall record my vote for the amendment amendment which we have carried and
of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers.
which involves the dissolution of both
Mr. LYNE: I should like to know whether houses.
the amendment moved by the hon. mem-
The CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon.
ber, Mr. Wise, is not already passed, pro- member to confine himself to the question
viding that in lieu of dissolving the house at present before the Committee-to the
of representatives alone in the first in- dual referendum.
3 T
930
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[20 SEPT., 1897.1
Mr. WISE: I am pointing out that provision which will differentiate between
whatever we may ingraft upon that is a the two classes of cases, I shall be happy
matter for subsequent consideration. I indeed to support him.
am prepared to go with my right hon, and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
learned friend, Mr. Reid, in supporting Mr. · WISE: That is another matter
the proposal that the two houses should altogether!
meet together; but I only desire that to
Question That the words "by dual
take place after the dissolution of both referendum," proposed (by Right Hon. Sir
houses, and if my right hon. friend intends
George Turner) to be inserted, be so in-
to vote against the amendment now before
serted-put. The Committee divided :
the Committee in favour of a dual refer-
Ayes, 18; noes, 27 ; majority, 9.
endum, in order to introduce his proposal
AYES.
ĉor the two houses to meet together, but
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
further proposes to limit that to the single Berry, Sir G. James, W. H.
case of a dissolution of the house of repre-
Brown, N. J.
Kingston, C. C.
sentatives only, I shall be found voting Cockburn, Dr. J. A.
Clarke, M. J.
Quick, Dr. J.
Solomon, V. L.
against that proposal.
Deakin, A.
Turner, Sir G.
The Hon. E. BARTON: If this dual re-
Fysh, Sir P. O. Walker, J. T.
ferendum proposal is negatived, the thing Holder, F. W.
Glynn, P. M.
Teller,
will stand in this way: First, Mr. Symon's Howe, J. H.
Peacock, A. J.
proposal is carried, then there is the alter-
NOES.
native of the dual dissolution, then if the Barton, E.
Henry, J.
deadlock is unsettled the result is that
Briggs, H.
Leake, G.
Brunker, J. N. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
both houses are to deliberate and vote Carruthers, J. H. Lyne, W. J.
together.
Crowder, F. T. McMillan, W.
Mr. WISE: That is the view I desire
Dobson, H.
Moore, W.
Douglas, A.
O'Connor, R. E.
to see effected, but I do not understand Downer, Sir J. W. Reid, G. H.
that my right hon, friend, Mr. Reid, took Forrest, Sir J.
Symon, J. H.
that view. I wish it to be understood
Fraser, S.
Venn, H. W
Gordon, J. H.
Wise, B. R.
that in voting against the dual referen- Grant, C. H.
Zeal, Sir W. AL
dum, I only do so for the purpose, after- Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
wards, of ingrafting on the clause a pro-
Henning, A. H. Higgins, H. B.
vision for the two houses to meet together
Question so resolved in the negative.
which is to be subsequent to the dual
Amer.Üment (by Mr. CARRUTHERS) pro-
dissolution.
posed :
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
That the words “ to the direct determination
of the people as hereinafter provided " be omit-
(South Australia) [11:24]: I wish to state
ted with the view to insert in lieu thereof the
the position I take in regard to the dual following words :- .6 the members of the two
referendum. If it is proposed for all cases,
houses deliberating and voting together thereon,
I shall have to vote against it, because my
and shall be adopted or rejected according to
contention is that it should be confined to
the decision of three-fifths of the members pre-
sent and voting on the question.”
cases in which the state interests are really
involved, and that the national referendum
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Austra-
should be applied to cases where state in-
lia) [11:30]: I desire to move as an amend-
ment:
terests are not involved. But if my right
That the word " three-fifths " be omitted
hon. friend, Sir George Turner, tells me that
with a view to the insertion of the word "two-
he is prepared to accept some subsequent thirds " in lieu thereof.
1
[Mr. Wise.
Cominonwealth of
931
20. SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
Mr. LYNE: Do I understand, if the point out. The effect of this will be to
amendment is carried, it will be added on allow the two houses, when they meet, to
to the amendment moved by the hon. amend money bills.
member, Mr. Wise, to have a simulta- An HON. MEMBER: That is a detail !
neous dissolution of the two houses?
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
The CHAIRMAN : Yes.
That is a detail which goes to the root of
Mr. LYNE: So that it will then read that the whole question. I might be prepared,
there is to be a simultaneous dissolution if I could get nothing else, to accept the
of the two houses, and, after that, if there meeting of the two houses; but I am not
is no agreement, the two houses voting going to accept that if it is going to con-
together will decide by a majority of three- fer the power to amend money bills. To
fifths or two-thirds, as the case may be. make it perfectly clear, I propose to add
The CHAIRMAN: If this amendment is certain words, reserving to myself the right
carried, and the amendment is amended to say which way I will vote. I am not
as proposed, the state of affairs will be as certain which way I will vote as yet. I
follows :-There is, first of all, the conse- want this difficulty to be cleared out of
cutive dissolution of the hon. member, Mr. the way. I want some words such as these
Symon ; then, in the alternative, there is inserted :
the dual simultaneous dissolution, and Provided that at such joint meeting it shall
after that comes the question of the two
not be competent to make amendments in a bill
which would be amended by the senate.
houses sitting together.
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [11:32]:
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
My objection to the suggestion of the hon. South Wales) [11.34]: That difficulty was
member, Mr. Carruthers, is not so much to
always present to my mind, and there are
the provision--with which I entirely agree
other matters of detail which will have to
-being ingrafted on to a simultaneous
be specified. My idea to-day was simply
dissolution, but to having it ingrafted on
to get at a general proposition upon which
a simultaneous dissolution in the form of
we could all agree, and settle the details
an alternative which is to be left to the
afterwards. The hon. member is perfectly
executive ministry of the day to select.
right in the case of an appropriation bill,
An Hon. MEMBER: We are going to
or, say, a tariff bill. It would never do
stick to the simultaneous dissolution !
for the houses sitting together to rip up
Mr. SYMON: I do not say we are not.
each item. The question in such a case
I strongly object to it, and I also object
would be, that the bill do now pass; but
to Mr. Carruthers' amendment being in-
in all measures which are outside that
grafted upon it; but I still more object to
limited category it will be perfectly open
ingrafting the amendment on the simul- to the two houses to go over the clauses of
taneous dissolution, as an alternative to
the bill together and mould them as they
be chosen by the ministry of the day.
think fit.
Therefore I shall vote against it as added
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : This is a
on there, and for it if the hon. member,
matter of too serious a nature for us to
Mr. Carruthers, does as he intimates he hurry over, because it happens to be now
intends to do-attaches it as a condition twenty minutes to 12 o'clock !
to a consecutive dissolution.
An Hon. MEMBER : We may be here
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER till tomorrow morning !
(Victoria) (11.33]: There is a serious diffi- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Then let
culty with regard to this, which I wish to us adjourn!
932
Commonwealth Bill.
Adjournment.
21 SEPT., 1897.]
to :-
The Hon. E. BARTON: It seerns to Wales; J. Matheson, Esquire, Commis-
me there is no intention on the part of the sioner of Railways in Victoria ; and
Convention to indulge in a very long de- A. G. Pendleton, Esquire, Commissioner
bate to-morrow.
There is not one argu- for Railways in South Australia, before
ment on the whole question that has not the Finance Committee at its sittings in
been thoroughly advanced, and on the Adelaide.
understanding that hon. members simply Ordered : That the documents be printed.
wish to take time to consider this matter
before they vote, and that we are not to COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
have another prolonged debate
In Committee (consideration resumed from
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : I must
20th September, vice page 932):
Clause 56 (Recommendation of money votes).
go away to-morrow night!
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assen-
The Hon. E. BARTON: The right hon).
bly of New South Wales :
gentleman on that account has a special
Insert new clause to follow clause 56,
claim upon us not to prolong the debate, (vide page 807), upon which the following
and under these circumstances I shall amendment by Mr. Symon had been agreed
move :
That the Chairman report progress, and ask That after the word “If," in the proposed
leave to sit again.
new clanse, the following new words be inserted :
- the senate reject or fail to pass any proposeck
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
law which has passed the house of representa-
(Western Australia) (11.37]: I should
tives, or pass the same with amendments with
like to ask if what we have agreed to to- which the house of representatives will not
night, and what it is proposed to discuss agree, and if the governor-general should dis-
solve the house of representatives, and if, with-
to-morrow, will be in print in the morning?
in six months after the said dissolution the
The Hon. E. BARTON: That will be all
house of representatives by an absolute ma-
right!
jority again pass the said proposed law in the
Motion agreed to; progress reported.
same, or substantially the same, form as before,
and with substantially the same objects, and the
senate again reject or fail to pass the said pro-
RETURN.
posod law, or pass the same with amendments
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER laid upon the with which the house of representatives will not
table in return to an order, on the motion agree, the governor-general may dissolve the
senate.
of Dr. Quick, papers relating to the quar-
antine and postal services.
Upon which Mr. Lyne had moved a fur-
ther amendment, namely :-
Convention adjourned at 11:38 p.m.
To add to the words inserted “If after a
dissolution of both houses of the federal parliaa
ment as above provided the subject-matter of
the contention that led to such dual dissolution
TUESDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER, 1897. is aĝain passed by the house of representatives
and again rejected by the senate such measure
shall be referred to the electors of the common-
Finance Committee-Commonwealth of Australia Bill.
wealth by means of a national referendum, and
if resolved in the affirmative shall become law."
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30 Upon which amendment the following
amendment (by the Right Hon. Sir George
FINANCE COMMITTEE.
Turner and Mr. Wise) had been agreed to:
The Hon. E. BARTON laid upon the
To leave out the initial word “If,” with a
table evidence of E. M. G. Eddy, Esquire,
view to insert the following : .“ Provided,
late Railway Commissioner of New South that in lieu of dissolving the house of represen-
a,m.
t
Commonwealth of
933
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
tatives alone in the first instance, both houses basis of the bill, would have said so in his
of parliament may be dissolved simultaneously :
motion. We are following him loyally
Provided that the senate shall not be dissolved
within a period of six months immediately pre-
upon the clear faith that the proposition
ceding the date of the expiry by effluxion of time is based on the bill as it now stands
of the duration of the house of representatives otherwise, the thing has no foundation,
And if after such dissolution, the proposed law
and in supporting the hon. meinber we
fails to pass, with or without amendment, the
proposed law may be referred to the direct
shall simply be led into a trap. But I
determination of the people as hereinafter pro- rely upon the honor and faith of the
vided."
right hon. the Premier of this colony, and
And upon which the Hon. J. H. Car- of one of his principal ministers, Mr. Car-
ruthers had moved the following amend- ruthers, who makes this proposition, and
ment :-
who did not indicate, having regard to the
To leave out “the direct determination of the way in which it is framed, any alteration
people as hereinafter provided," with a view to of the basis upon which it is founded, and
add "the members of the two houses deliber-
which we have a right to assume is to be
ating and voting together thereon, and shall be
adopted or rejected according to the decision of maintained. Relying upon their honor
three-fifths of the members present and voting in this matter, I have departed from the
on the question.”
ranks of the hon. member, Mr. Isaacs,
Upon which the Hon. J. H. Howe had with regard to the dual referendum, which
moved :
I much prefer. But seeing, as I conceived,
That the word “three-fifths" be omitted with in this proposal the more practical mea-
a view to insert in lieu thereof the word "two-
sure, I have left his ranks in order to join
thirds."
The Hon. J. H. GORDON South New South Wales, and those who support
those of the right hon. the Premier of
Australia) (10.34]: As I intimated in a
few words yesterday, I intend to support · have done so relying upon their honor in
the proposal before the Committee. I
the proposition of the hon. member, Mr.
Carruthers, but I desire to make my posi- basis of the bill as it now stands, and upon
the matter, and if they do not support the
tion very clear. When the hon. and learned
which this proposition is founded, I shall
member, Mr. O'Connor, was speaking to
consider that I have been entrapped. Up
this suggestion yesterday, I interjected
that unless the quota as provided by the
to the present, however, I have no sus-
bill as it now stands were maintained, the picions in the matter. The only indication
I have had has been, as I have said, a little
proposal meant nothing more than a sham.
The hon. member seemed to think those weakening by the hon. and learned member,
Mr. O'Connor, in putting the case yesterday.
words rather strong. But I used them in no
An Hon. MEMBER : I think the hon.
sense offensively. I still say that, unless the
member will find that he has been en-
bill as it now stands, is to be taken as the
substance upon which this proposition is trapped !
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : I should
based, the whole proposal is simply a sham.
Although that interjection was occasioned
be sorry to make that discovery, and other
hon. members for the same reasons would
by what I thought some weakening on
be sorry to find it so. I shall consider it
the part of my hon. friend in his advocacy
of the proposal on that basis, and his nothing more nor less than a breach of
speech did denote a little weakening on
faith to those who have followed the
that ground, I do hope-in fact, I am suggestion. However, no indication has
sure-that the hon. member, Mr. Car- been made by the hon. member, Mr.
ruthers, if he intended to weaken the Carruthers, nor has any been made by
934
: Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
the right hon. the Premier of New South remedy available in case of failure. Now,
Wales in this direction. The only indi. to my mind the remedy here proposed is
cation we have had of any weakening at the worst one which has been suggested.
all on the part of any hon. member who The sitting of the two houses together is, a
supports this proposition came from the course of procedure of which I cannot ap-
hon. and learned member, Mr. O'Connor, prove. I have thought the matter over
last night. I am sure, however, that, on carefully since we separated last night,
further reflection, the hon. member will and I have come to the conclusion that
see that any alteration of the quota would under no circumstances could I support
absolutely cut the ground from under this it. We will do our best to limit that
proposition, and the whole thing would be, which we regard as
an evil about to
as I said yesterday, and as I now repeat, be ingrafted upon the constitution, and
with as much emphasis as I am capable of, having limited it as much as we could,
nothing more nor less than a sham.
as far as I am concerned I shall vote
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER against this proposal. Of course if we
(Victoria) [10-38]: As I have already in- are to go a step further and follow the
dicated we will make the strongest effort hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, to the end
:we can to alter the clause. When the -if we are to follow him out to the mass
clause was passed, I indicated that we referendum, and if this proposal does not
regarded it as so seriously affecting the give effect to the proposed law of the
interests of the general movement, at all federal parliament, then that may be a
events in our colony—and I assume it is different matter, but those who are sup-
certainly so regarded in the colony of New porting the hon. gentleman's proposal now
South Wales—that I should feel bound for a joint meeting of the two houses to
to ask the leader of the Convention to decide any question in conflict between
recommit the clause hereafter, so that we them, will, I feel perfectly certain, not
might have an opportunity of reversing support him in the further step which he
the vote already taken. Hon. members desires to take of having, in case it fails,
who now propose to adopt this principle the whole matter decided by the people
must not turn round afterwards and say in a national referendum. Of course if
that they had not had a fair intimation of hon. members are prepared to go that
our intention. It is my intention to do length, it may to a great extent modify
all I can until this bill is finally settled the objections that I have to this pro-
to alter the clause fixing the quota, which, posal; but, I cannot conceive that they
to my mind, improperly limits the repre- are prepared to go that length. I am not
sentation of the colony of Victoria. I going to stop making every effort I pos-
intend, also, to vote against the proposal sibly can to alter the quota; and I hold
on other grounds. We have now deter- niyself perfectly free hereafter to tell the
mined, by a fair majority, that we shall people of Victoria that, with that fixed
have a double dissolution. As I have representation, I cannot advise them to
pointed out on several occasions, I am accept the bill, and, as I believe that this
willing that another step should be taken remedy is worse than the disease, I intend
after that, but that other step will be re- to do everything I can to prevent its
quired only under the most exceptional being carried.
circumstances. In nearly all cases the Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
double dissolution will probably settle the [10:42]: The right hon. gentleman who
matter. But I desire to have some other has just spoken had my support in regard
[The Hon. J. H. Gordon.
Commonwealth of.
935
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
: Australia Bill.
to his alternative motion yesterday to have
The result would be that a measure would
a joint dissolution. I told him my views on have to be carried by 84.members of the
the matter last Friday, and I religiously joint house. I arguein this.way: The colony
adhered to what I then said; but, the Nor- of New South Wales would be entitled to 26
wegian system not having been alluded to, members in the lower house, and 6 in the
I feel myself at perfect liberty to vote as upper house, making altogether 32. Sub-
I think best on this matter. It seems to tracting 32 from 112, leaves 80, and, there-
me that the Norwegian system, or an adap- fore her interests in the waters of her rivers.
tation of it, is the most admirable system could not be sacrificed by any possible
to settle those matters provided that the combination against her. However, irre-
proportion is sufficient to safeguard the spective of that, it seems to me that the
interests of the states.
division such as it is ought never to be so
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Will the hon.
low that one house voting solidly could
gentleman explain the Norwegian system wipe out the other house altogether. I
think that the hon. member, Mr. Holder,
Mr. WALKER: It is proposed that
said yesterday that this assembly was
in our federation there shall be 36 mem-
divided into two parties, or more, on politi-
bers in the senate, and 76 members in the
cal grounds. I think that the hon. gentle-
house of representatives, making' alto-
man was quite right. I admit that in
gether 112.
The right hon. member, Australian politics I am what is called a
Mr. Reid, I believe, gave his adhesion to a
liberal conservative, while the hon. mem-
three-fifths majority. Now three-fifths of ber, Mr. Holder, might be called a conser-
112 is 68. The hon. member, Mr. Howe,
vative radical. He is conservative in re-
has suggested two-thirds; that means 75. gard to state and radical in regard to
I intend to move an amendment, that in- national matters.
I believe that I am
stead of three-fifths the proportion shall acting consistently with my political faith
be three-fourths, which will be 84. I will in proposing that the majority of the two
draw hon. members' attention to the ad- houses shall be a three-fourths one. There-
vantage of having three-fourths. As a fore, I intend to propose :
representative of the colony of New South That the amendment be amended by omitting
" three-fifths" with a view to insert in lieu
Wales, I think it my duty when the time
thereof “ three-fourths."
comes to conserve the interests of that
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
colony. I am not a provincialist, and I
think that my votes have shown that I am
[10:47] : I should like to state very briefly
for the information of the Committee
not. I look upon federation as above provin-
what I understand the Norwegian system
cialism; but I recognise the fact that there
to be.
is a great question in which New South
Wales is particularly interested. I take
Mr. WALKER : This is only an adapta-
ber case and apply it to all the other
tion of it!
colonies. You will observe that 68 or The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The hon.
75 is less than the total number of the gentleman did not accept my invitation to
house of representatives, so if a conflict explain the Norwegian system to the Com-
arose between the two houses it would be mittee, therefore the duty devolves upon
quite possible for the house of representa- me to do so. There is no country in the
tives to completely crush the senate. I world which has the system now proposed.
wish that that should not take place, and The Norwegian system is this : There are
therefore, I propose there shall be a three- 114 members of parliament elected all
fourths instead of a three-fifths majority. at the same election, all on the same
936
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.
franchise, all in the same way, and all on
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I am sorry
proportional representation. They meet as to say that the hon. member is right. I
one body and they divide themselves into am sorry to say that it was a large colony
two parts, one consisting of three-fourths that proposed it; but it was another large
of the whole number as nearly as possible, colony that opposed it, and will oppose it
the other consisting of the remaining one- to the end. I do not presume to speak with
fourth. The three-fourths constitute one any degree of authority-far be it from me
chamber, the other one-fourth constitutes _but I doubt very much whether the large
the other chamber—a chamber of revision. colony from which it came will support that
The first chamber, speaking generally, origi- in the end. However, I would like to em-
nates bills, and sends them to the other phasise the fact that if it was difficult
chamber. If the two chambers agree, the enough under other circumstances to main-
bill passes; if they do not agree the two tain that provision as to a quota, it is ab-
meet as one body and a two-thirds majority solutely impossible to do so as matters now
carries it. What analogy has that to our
stand. I say to hon. members, as I said
constitution? I should like hon. meinbers last night, that there is no hope of carry.
to ask themselves in all seriousness what ing these two things conjointly, because it
basis is that for this proposition ? I will brings into such startling relief the position
show hon. gentlemen how utterly inapplic- in which we stand in our colony on the
able it is to our constitution. We have a question of equal representation.
senate based on equal representation-
Mr. HIGGINS : If you can carry equal
with equal representation given as a pro- representation you can carry this too !
tection to the smaller colonies, to protect The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: My hon.
state rights, but up to the present we liave friend knows that that is not correct. We
religiously maintained proportional re- have carried as large a load as we have
presentation proportional representation been able to bear.
only in the people's house, the national Mr. HIGGINS : Too large a load!
house. This proposal breaks into that prin- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I believe
ciple. Not only have we been asked to con- with this addition we shall break down.
cede equal representation, not only have I have the greatest apprehension of the
we been asked to pass a clause fixing the whole principle of equal representation;
ratio between the two houses, linking the and I beliere that when this proposal is
house of equal representation to the house put before the people of Victoria they will
of proportional representation; but we are see at once, with a clearer vision than
now asked to carry the principle of equal they ever had before, that there is danger
representation into the very deliberations in it. That fact has been brought home
of the house of representatives. We are to me with a vividness I never experi-
asked to allow the two houses to consti- enced before. We have given the senate
tute themselves one chamber and to bring equal representation and the power to
all the advantages of equal representation amend money bills, we have put limits
into the joint deliberations of the two which are more than the ordinary consti-
bodies. Do hon. members really think tutional limits upon the house of repre-
that the larger colonies will stand that? sentatives, and we have stopped their
I think that hon. members are expecting ordinary powers in regard to money bills,
a great deal too much in thinking that. because it will be unlawful for them to
An Hon. MEMBER: It was proposed by originate certain money bills except under
a large colony !
certain conditions, and now in spite of the
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Cominonwealth of
937
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
loyal adhesion which Victoria has given to it can be moved in any way, the national
the smaller colonies, and in spite of our referendum, either now or in the future.
personal endeavours to meet them as far as Mr. SYMON: The hon. member should
we can, our advances are rejected, and an not sacrifice his convictions to do that!
effort is made to force this position on us The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I have sacri-
--that the senate, which by a large majority ficed my convictions in support of the
of our Legislative Assembly was denied small colonies to a very large extent.
even the power of suggestion, is to combine An HON. MEMBER: We do not want
with the house of representatives to form
favours from anyone!
one house, and to have a still stronger The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I believe
power of suggestion.
that if the motion is carried a blow will be
Mr. HIGGINS : The hon. member, Mr. given to the federal impulse which it will
Carruthers, says that he is going to knock be difficult to recover from. I trust that,
out the power of amendment in money whether the required majority is fixed at
bills in the joint sitting!
two-thirds, or three-fifths, or anything else,
The Hon. E. BARTON : He will confine the proposal will not be carried. I believe
the functions of the combined assembly that even if it is three-fifths--and there
to the mere determination of the question are five colonies in the union--the smaller
shall a measure pass !
states will not accept the proposal, because,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I quite under- if it came to a question of state rights,
stand that. I am assuming that there is there would be fifty-nine representatives
no power to amend money bills. I am from the larger colonies, and it would only
accepting that position. Who can say that require fifty- -seven votes to carry a measure.
the power of the senate to meet and to de- That will be worse even than the mass re-
bate upon these money bills, to argue that ferendum If the required majority was
for certain reasons they should not pass, two-thirds, sixty-three votes would be
is not a much stronger power of suggestion needed to carry a measure, and we should
than was given in the money clauses of then be placed in the position stated by
the bill ? This is carrying things just a the right hon. and learned member, Mr.
step too far. We are being pushed beyond Reid. He asked us, in language that could
all the limits of endurance, and I say, with not be surpassed for force and emphasis,
calmness and regret, that, in my opinion, "Are we to form a constitution in which
my hon, friend has carried this matter just the will of 2,500,000 people can be pre-
a little too far.
vented from becoming law by the votes of
An HON. MEMBER: The hon. and
600,000 people ?"
learned gentleman must allow us the con- Mr. SYMON : Does the hon. and learned
trary opinion !
member suppose that all the representa-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Certainly, tives would vote together?
and I hope that one day my hon. friend The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Iam notarguing
will be proved to be right; but I fear against the views of the hon. and learned
very much that he will not. We have
member; I am accepting the views which
nothing left now but to do the best we he expressed yesterday. If we provided
can for our colony. We have met the for a majority of three-fifths there would
smaller colonies in as fair a manner as we be less difficulty. It would be consistent
could; but I see myself bound, subject to with what he said, if five colonies joined
further reflection, to further argument, the union; but if six colonies joined the
and to further eventualities, to support, if union it would not, because it would allow
9.38
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
the votes of 1,000,000 people to outweigh sume that in any of the colonies it will
those of 2,500,000 people. If we accept be difficult to obtain adhesion to this
the amendment suggested by the hon. proposal.
member, Mr. Gordon, we shall be in:exactly The Hon. J. H. GORDON: The same
the same position. The wishes of 2,500,000 might be said of any scheme proposed !
people may be thwarted by 600,000, and The Hon. I. A. ISAAOS: No; because
if there are six coloniesin the.union, it will this is to come after a double dissolution.
be worse. Instead of requiring 62 members We will assume a question of state rights
representing the larger colonies we shall re- to have arisen, and that the two houses
quire 75, that is, we shall require 13 more have been sent to their constituents.
members to carry into effect the wishes of The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: We are not
the larger colonies. Are the larger colonies going to vote for the double dissolution !
going to endure that? I could understand The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The hon.
it if the referendum were to be enforced. member has voted for it.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : How does The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL : No, I have
the hon. member make up the 62 members ?
not!
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Sixty-two
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: It has been
includes the 50 representatives of the two
voted for.
larger colonies in the house of representa-
The Hon. W. A. ZEAL: It has been
tives and the 12 in the senate.
voted for; but I have not voted for it!
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Is that Mr. SYMON : I might remind may hon.
with five or with six states in the union ? and learned friend that the double dissolu-
The Hon. I. A. ISAAOS: With six. tion has not been carried !
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : What An Hon. MEMBER: Not the simul-
does the hon, member call Queensland ? taneous dissolution !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Queensland Mr. SYMON: No; the amendment of the
comes nearer to being a small colony than Right Hon. Sir George Turner has been
to being a large colony. She will have a amended so as to embody that!
representation of 9 members in the house An HON. MEMBER: It has been pro-
of representatives and 6 in the senate. visionally carried !
South Australia, which is called a small The Hon. I. A. ISA ACS : Technically
colony, will have 7 representatives in the my hon. and learned friend may be right;
house of representatives, while Victoria but I am correct substantially, because the
will have 24, and New South Wales 26. votes that were given, 25 to 20, were, I
An Hon. MEMBER: That is quite right! take it, pronounced in favour of a simul-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : In twenty taneous dissolution. Therefore, after that
years' time the smaller states will stand in a has taken place, even in spite of my hon.
strange position. Whether we decide that friend, Mr. Deakin, and my hon. friend,
the majority shall be three-fifths or two- Mr. Symon's successful demurrer, I think
thirds, they will stand in an awkward posi- on the facts I am correct. What I want
tion twenty years hence if we allow the two to emphasise is that the two houses coming
houses to come together in this way.
I back after that simultaneous dissolution,
think there are circumstances in which the members will be compelled to stand at
larger states will be overborne and circum- their posts; they will be returned by the
stances in which the smaller states will be express mandate of their respective con-
overborne, and the arrangement will be stituencies, and they will be bound to
unsatisfactory to every one of us. I pre- stand firm. Then they will meet together,
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
939
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
and what is the result? Is there to be hon. member in coming forward to-day
finality? I doubt it. Even with this and saying that he acted against his con-
proposal, if there were finality, it will victions in granting equal state rights, and
only be by an abandonment of their posi- now when a proposal of this character is
tions by some representatives; it will brought forward, which cuts away the
only be by danger to the colonies, large ground from the feet of those who advo-
and small, according to the circumstances cate equal state representation, he is going
that there will be any finality. But from to oppose that proposal? He is going to
that point of view I would urge my hon. retrace his steps because the advocates of
friends not to take the very risky and equal state representation are going too
dangerous step of endeavouring to incor far. No advocate of equal state represen-
porate such a provision as this in the con- tation has ever gone so far as have some
stitution. It is an utterly foreign scheme, of the representatives of Victoria. It is
more foreign than any other proposal which an unfortunate thing for the interests
has been submitted. The referendum has of federation that there is this marked
worked in Switzerland; it has been adopted difference of opinion between the repre-
by millions of English speaking people in sentatives of the large states as to a
America; but this proposal has been pitch- principle which is almost universally held
forked into this debate at the eleventh by the people whom they represent. The
hour without the slightest pretence to
hon. member objects to this proposal be-
analogy, without the slightest pretence to cause it is a foreign institution. It is
adaptability to our constitution, and I do no more foreign than the system of feder-
sincerely hope that the Committee will ation itself ; in fact, our constitution
reject it.
has largely to be built up of foreign ideas.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
But it does not matter whether the idea
South Wales) [11.2]: The hon. member, is foreign, or whether it belongs to our
Mr. Isaacs, no doubt finds himself in a own country, so long as the principle
quandary. He has supported equal state underlying it is one that can be defended.
representation against his own convictions. Does not the hon. member know that
He now says that we have gone too far and Mr. Gladstone and the great liberal party
that the proper time has arrived to retrace in 1893 proposed in the Home Rule Bill
his steps.
But the hon. member must exactly the same principle as we are con-
recollect that only last evening he fathered sidering now?
a proposal to carry equal state representa- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Was it with
tion further than was ever proposed before, equal representation?
that was to carry it not merely into the The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : As
senate but into a referendum to the people. the hon. member knows, there was no
The hon.member's consistency is most federation there, so that there could be no
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I never proposed question of equal representation, and the
to carry it into the house of representa- interjection is no answer.
tives !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :: Oh, yes; that
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: The is the point in bringing the two houses
hon. member did far more than that. He together!
proposed to have equal state representation The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS:
so ingrafted on the constitution that the There is less ground for having a con-
people themselves could never get away
ference between houses which are elected
from it. Where is the consistency of the as legislative assemblies and legislative
940
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
councils than is the case where the repre- this proposal, unless safeguarded, would
sentatives are supposed to derive their give power to the senate to amend or inter-
authority from the one fountain head of re- fere with money bills. Now the proposal
presentation from the people direct, from submitted from the Chair gives no power of
manhood suffrage. Surely there is an oppor- amendment of any bill whatsoever. The
tunity then of bringing the representatives proposal is that laid down in the Govern-
together, when the very source of their ment of Ireland bill, the principle that
authority is exactly the same, although the two houses shall deliberate and vote
perhaps the degree is different. I must
I must together thereon, and shall adopt or reject
express my amazement at the opposition the bill.
which this proposal is meeting from the The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : What was the
representatives of Victoria. I tell the proposal there about a majority ?
Right Hon. Sir George Turner, and those The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: There
voting with him, that they now have these was a proposal for decision by a majority,
proposals in black and white before them. I forget what it was exactly. If the hon.
They know at this juncture that the pro- member will be consistent and will move
posals before the Committee are part of a the omission of the word “three-fifths" in
series of propositions, the finality of which my amendment with the object of inserting
is arrived at when we have the mass sa majority," I will vote with him. When
referendum.
a man comes close to my views I am quite
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Then willing to meet him.
the hon, member is in favour of the mass The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That proposal
referendum?
would be less objectionable !
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: I The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : My
never shrink from going to the legitimate hon. friend knows that I have not the
issue of the principles I hold. Since I slightest chance of carrying that. But if
became a member of this Convention, I the hon, member thinks that that is the
have always carried to a vote and to a proper thing to do, let him be manly and
test all those cases which involve the do it and I will 'stand with him. This
principles I advocate. If the majority is explanation ought to satisfy hon. members
against me I bow to the inevitable. But
that there is no danger whatsoever of the
because I am defeated on this or that senate gaining greater power than it now
question, that is no reason why I should possesses with regard to money bills, be-
abandon my support of what I deem to be cause there is no power of amending any
a good thing, as far as I can get it, always bill whatever in the proposal. My hon.
hoping that a time will come when those friend suggests that we might arrive at
who oppose me will go one step further this stage : that after a bill has been passed
with me, at any rate believing that every by the house of representatives, and re-
stage is better than standing still ; that jected by the senate, a dissolution occurs,
every step forward is a step in the right and members go to their constituents.
direction. As long as I can get hon. mem- They are not rejected, they are fortified in
bers to march forward with me, I am will- their views, and are more steadfastly con-
ing to march on, and when they will go no stant to their votes. Does the hon. mem-
further I will not quarrel with them be- ber want matters to remain at that stage ?
cause they have gone as far as they could. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : NO!
The hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, and the The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : This
Right Hon. Sir George Turner, said that proposal goes much further. It provides
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Cómnoriu calth of
941
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
man
that if a majority in the house of representa- Mr. Gordon, whether there is any guaran-
tives with those in favour of it in the senate tee from the Premier of New South Wales
are sufficiently large to constitute a three- and myself whether the quota provisions
fifths majority, the bill passes. That is a are to remain. He asks whether the Con-
step in the right direction, instead of a vention is to accept a guarantee as to these
minority of two-fifths of the whole parlia- quota provisions remaining. I do not want
ment standing in the way of progress and to mislead the hon, member at all. This
legislation, as the hon. member would proposal is made on the bill asit now stands.
have it. You do not need one
I take it that if there is a reconsideration of
to give up his principles. You do not the quota provisions, and those quota pro-
need one man to change his vote. The visions are eliminated from the bill, there
three-fifths majority may be there, exist- must also be a reconsideration of these
ing from the very first moment of the clauses.
deadlock being created. The majority may The Hon. J. H. GORDON : That is fair !
never have been increased or diminished The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS:
by one man. The hon. member asks us The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Vote
to let things stand as they are. That against it !
majority, under the proposal I have sub- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: Ishall
mitted, will be all powerful. Is it not always be found voting against these provi-
much better to move that step forward, sions; but I recognise in all honor and
that where we have that manifest majority honesty that the vote now given is given by
of the representatives of the country, there hon. members on the bill as it stands, and,
shall be progress in the work of legisla- therefore, if there is a reconsideration of
tion, rather than that we should stand the context in any one part there must be
still, rather than that we should adopt the an equal possibility for reconsideration of
attitude of children who cannot get all they the context, and consequential amendments
want, and, therefore, will accept nothing may be fairly considered then.
at all, and let the country suffer? As to The Hon. J. H. GORDON : That is fair!
most of these great crises, the intensity The Hon. J.H. CARRUTHERS: If we
of them will be caused by the fact that an have six states represented in a conference,
insignificant minority, perhaps, is standing we shall have 112 members, and a three-
in the way of legislation against the will of fifths majority will be sixty-seven members.
the great majority, so that in those cases The house of representatives will consist of
where parties are equally balanced, where seventy-six members, so that if there is
there is only a small majority, you may practically an overwhelming majority, in
be sure that public opinion will be be- the house of representatives, with the assist-
hind parties there, and you will have a ance of the twelve representatives of the
balance which will hold the people too. two larger states, the chances are all in
It is only in those cases where large favour of a settlement of the deadlock. If
majorities exist so as to take the ques. We have only five states, the chances are
tion beyond the realms perhaps of debate all the greater in favour of a settlement of
that there is any necessity to have a pro- the deadlock, when the interests of the
vision to meet a deadlock. Where a three- states with the large populations, or the
fifths majority is secured, it will be in interests of the people themselves, are
those cases where it is more necessary to more largely concerned. I do not know
end the deadlocks than in other cases. whether my hon, and learned friend, Mr.
We have been asked by my hon. friend, Wise, will urge any objection on the
942
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
ground of the possibility of the minority In Adelaide I gave notice of a similar-series
being converted into a majority, as he did: of amendments, and, as the hon. member
yesterday. That argument, hon. members knows, my right hon. friend, Mr. Reid, and
will see, is perfectly untenable ; because, as myself had to come back to this colony to
the proposals are now before the Chair, the conduct public business, and, therefore, I
bill must have passed the house of repre- was not in my place in Adelaide to put this
sentatives with a majority twice before proposal before the Convention. But imme-
it can be considered by this conference, diately we met here I gave notice again,
so that the danger of having a minority and yesterday morning I submitted this pro-
in the people's house converted into a posal to my hon. and learned friends, Mr.
majority by the assistance of the senate, Barton and Mr. O'Connor, the moment the
disappears entirely. These proposals, as Convention met. All points of their opposi-
they are now in the possession of the Chair, tion, it appears to me, fall to the ground.
provide only for the settlement of a dead- We must have some finality. These pro-
lock. which arises by the obstruction of posals will reach finality. They give hon.
the senate. I have always intimated my members who are in favour of the general
view that the proposal should be of a referendum an opportunity at a later stage
mutual character; but I have not had my to vote for or against that general refer-
way in that respect, so that the arguments ‘endum. They safeguard the rights of the
which were used yesterday against these house of representatives with regard to
proposals, on the ground that they may money bills, and they give to the people,
possibly convert the minority of the house if not absolute justice, a modicum of jus-
of representatives into a majority with the tice, which is better than none at all. I
aid of the senators must disappear. My ask those who are in favour of granting
friend, Mr. Walker, has made a proposal justice to the people to step forward when
to make the majority three-fourths. I will they can with those willing to more, and
advise him to go further, and provide that not to refuse allies because those allies will
they shall be unanimous. Then we shall not go to the full length of the proposal
have the rights of the small states guarded which has been put forward.
with a vengeance. But I do not suppose The Right Hon. 0. C. KINGSTON
that anyone will accept a proposal of that (South Australia) [11.18]: We have heard
character, which is so manifestly beyond all a great deal on the subject of finality. I
reason, into serious consideration. With understand, as regards federation, par-
regard to these amendments my hon. friend ticularly where state rights are concerned,
says they bave been sprung upon him. As that for the adoption of any legislation
far as I am concerned, a few days ago the two majorities require to be obtained—a
hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, majority in the house of representatives,
quoted a passage from a speech which I and a majority in the senate. This does
delivered in this colony.
not seem to suit some hon. members, who
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That was all say, under these circumstances, when we
abandoned !
cannot get these majorities we cannot deal
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: If with these questions; in short, there is
my hon. and learned friend had quoted a no power in the house of representatives
passage further on he would have seen that, by a majority—to overrule the majority in
in my first address as a candidate for elec- the senate. I take it that there ought not
tion to this Convention, I advocated exactly to be, when state interests are involved. I
this proposal which I am advocating now. will go further, and, adopting the argument
[The Hon. J, H. Carruthers.
Conrmonwealth of
943
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
« If
;
which has been applied at different times grave principle unnecessarily, and I shall
on the floor of this Convention, say, not depart in this Convention from the
you are going to provide under any cir- advocacy of a principle which I chan-
cumstances for a majority of the house of pioned elsewhere, and which our consti-
representatives overruling a majority of tuents have a right to expect we will not
the senate, you may as well do it in the abandon without previous consultation
first instance, and not indulge in all these with them. I, therefore, put it to hon.
various provisions, which will be useless members, “ Are you prepared to give
if you let the house of representatives feel power to the house of representatives to
that it has the ultimate power of decision." decide this matter in the long run? If
The distinction which I have endeavoured · you are, you might as well give it at first
to draw is between the cases in which states but I think it would be very much better
rights are involved and the cases in which if
you tried to draw the line between the
they are not, and I propose to take the two classes of cases, and let the national
sense of the Committee as to whether we will prevail in national questions, whilst
should or should not endeavour to proceed at the same time retaining for the protec-
on these scientific lines. You create a senate tion of the state the dual majorities when
for the purpose of protecting these states state interests are involved.” For that
rights; you say to the smaller states par- purpose I would propose, at the proper
ticularly, “Do not be afraid to come in; time, to move to refer the matter to a re-
your state rights and interests will be ferendum of the people of the common-
always well guarded by requiring the con- wealth in the case of national questions,
currence of a majority of that senate.” If and to a referendum of the people of the
now you are going to say to them, “Well, commonwealth and a referendum of the
they shall be guarded for a time, but it people of the states when state interests
is not to be permanent; when there is are involved. I have already indicated
considerable difference on the subject, al- the mode in which I would suggest that
though you may have a considerable ma- there might, when occasion arose, be the
jority in the senate, the will of the house of definition of state interests. I do not pro-
representatives should prevail”—I say it is pose to trouble the Convention with that
not fair. It seems to me we have not come matter at this particular time, but I do ask
here for the purpose of discussing a pro- the Convention to say that in these cases we
ject for federation on those lines. Equal will take logical grounds, and that where
representation has been held out as an in- state interests are involved we will give,
ducement. That means equal power not only in the first instance, but always,
necessary majority in the senate; and I the protection of the double majority,
put it to those who have previously said whilst we will dispense with it in the cases
that if you give the final power of deci- where state interests are not involved, and
sion to one or other of the houses, and dis- ought not to affect national questions. I
pense with the necessity of the concur- will ask the hon. member, Mr. Howe, to
rence of the two, the whole thing, as re- temporarily withdraw his amendment in
gards the protection of state interests, order that I may move to strike out the
is a delusion and a snare. Of course there word “the” in the first portion of the .
are a great many who seem to be pre- amendment, with a view to the insertion of
pared to make considerable sacrifices for the word “a," which is the first portion of
federation, and so am I.
At the same mine, and which will enable us to decide
time, I hope I shall not depart from any as to whether or not we shall have this
a
944
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
provision for a joint sitting, and will give the extinction of state interests at the
up once and for all the necessity for the dual wish of the majority of the people—and
majorities which are provided for the pro- who at the same time yield to the seduc-
tection of state right. I think the logical tive eloquence of the Right Hon. Mr.
position is the one which I have indicated, Reid, who said practically, “Oh, no; we
and I feel, as the representative of a small will not have anything of the sort”
state, trying at the same time to do my or, rather, he bows to the majority. He
duty to all, that I have a right to feel was in a minority which advocated the
strongly that the house of representatives national referendum, and he suggests some-
ought not to be allowed to prevail over the thing else which, when examined critically
senate when state rights are involved ; and
as it ought to be, is far more dangerous,
they also have a right to feel strongly that and likely to result in the extinction to
the will of the smaller populations repre-
which I refer, and which has induced a
sented in the senate should not prevail considerable majority oi this Convention
over the popular wish in the house of re- to say they will not have anything in the
presentatives when state interests are in shape of a national referendum as applied
to all cases.
no way involved.
This thing
Mr. LYNE: The difficulty is to decide
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: This what?
which is which !
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: Thing.
There is no doubt about that, but shall we
Mr. McMILLAN : The right hon. gentle-
make an attempt to do it ?
man will be classed as a tory soon !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : How does the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
hon. member say that state rights will be
was using the word in its mildest senso.
overridden?
This amendment, if it is worth anything,
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:I ought to work both ways.
will show hon. members, and I will prove
An Hon. MeuBER : So it will !
with arithmetical precision, that the pro- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I
posal which is now before us is simply a will prove that it will not. It ought to
cheap and easy and expeditious means of work for the benefit of the senate as well
enabling the house of representatives to as the house of representatives--to enable
override the will of the senate. There is
the majority in the senate, by the aid of a
no getting away from it--none whaterer.
minority in the house of representatives,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : That is its great when state interests are concerned, to
recommendation !
have, if possible, their way on questions
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That is which form the subject of discussion at
why the hon. member does not like it ! this joint sitting. What is the position
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :I
We will take the case when there are six
am really delighted to hear some of my
colonies represented—-76 members in the
friends who protested, in the heat of the house of representatives, 36 in the senate
moment, in language somewhat similar to - 112 in all. If you are going to provide
that which I myself am compelled to em-
for a two-thirds majority, as is suggested
ploy in regard to a national referendum, by my hon. friend, Mr. Howe, you must
as probably resulting in the overruling of have 75 altogether on your side.
state interests—the finality desired by An Hon. MEMBER : No; it is of those
some in connection with state interests— present, not a majority
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
945
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
They will all be present; there is no doubt The long and the short of it is this: While
about that. You want seventy-five on your we are crying out in pious, political horror
side. If they are not there they will pair, against the national referendum in all
so that it will come to the same thing. cases, we are providing with a most cheer-
You require the command of seventy-five. ful alacrity-some of us, at all events—a
Put it at its very best for the senate- means whereby the senate can be—to use
seventy-six members altogether, one in a word which has been used in connection
the chair, a majority against it. You with this matter-wiped out with every
cannot have more than thirty-seven on facility, with an impossibility, as it were,
the side of 'the senate, and you are not of its coming out on top so far as the
likely to have anything so close. How affirmation of its views is concerned, and
are you going to get your seventy-six to- with a certainty that it is to be placed
gether in a joint sitting? Why there are prostrate at the feet of the house of re-
only thirty-six members in the senate al- presentatives. Now, if we are going to
together, and under the best of circum-
have a thing of this sort, why do we not
stances, with the senate in a minority, have it in the first instance? If you mean
but in a very substantial minority in the unification—I think my hon. friend. Mr.
house of representatives, and polling the O'Connor, talked about it before provide
whole of the senate, you could not get the for it simply. What is the good of having
majority necessary for the affirmation of a second chamber, when, where state in-
the views of the senate.
terests are really involved, and the senate
Mr. LYNE: Hear, hear !
should be a permanent force for their pre-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : servation, you are going to provide for its
There is no doubt about that. Take the final extinction in the simple mode which
lot-seventy-three--and you are short of is commended for our adoption by my hon.
your two-thirds.
friend, Mr. Carruthers? I am, of course,
An Hon. MEMBER : That is right prepared to do a great deal in the interests.
enough!
of federation, and after consultation with
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: my constituents, I do not know whether,
Right enough! It is right enough for if you are going to put the power in the
those who say that the house of repre- house of representatives, I should not be.
sentatives ought to have two to one the prepared to do it in the first instance with-
best of it.
out all this roundabout system suggested
An Hon. MEMBER: We do not want for our adoption. But I do not think
two-thirds!
many of us came here charged with the
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : power, or at least with the duty, of adopt-
We will take it in another way.
ing a provision of that description, and,
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: If the bill although I cannot help recognising at the
does not pass, it does not get its own way! present moment that we are dealing with
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : this subject in a tentative way, that it
But is this thing only going to work one must come on for further consideration,
way? If it is intended to be a solution when I shall hold myself at liberty to
of the difficulty, with the house of repre- give such a vote as after the maturest
sentatives as the aggressive party, ought it consideration I may see fit to give, yet
not to be a fair thing with an equal vote ? at this particular moment I want it to
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
be understood that, in whatever way I do
3 U
946
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
vote, it is not a final but a tentative vote, —should permanently and effectively have
and that at least I am attempting to that power to protect and guard them,
discharge what I conceive to be my duty which is most insidiously sapped and taken
in pointing out the position in which a away by the proposal now before hon.
close analysis of the figures shows the members.
senate must inevitably be placed by a pro- Mr. WALKER: Three-fourths would be
posal of this kind. Of course, if you only better!
adopt the three-fifths proposition, you have The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
to get 68 members not very much dif- Three-fourths of 112 would be 84. Then
ference. Take, on the other hand, the the senate, with a minority of 37, has to
strongest minority you can possibly have get 47 out of the senate, which only con-
in favour of the senatorial views-37; tains 36 in all, for the purpose of making
what have you to get in the senate to 84, the number which will secure effect
carry your way ?-31, or all but four of being given to its wishes. We have hitherto
the whole of the senate, exclusive of the proceeded on fair and scientific and logical
gentleman who may happen to be in the lines. We have endeavoured to call into
chair. What chance would the senate have existence two bodies--one charged with
under circumstances such as those ? On the representation of national interests,
the other hand, take the 68. Imagine a the other to whom is to be particularly
certain combination—I do not say it is confided state guardianship. Let us arm
probable; I hope it is not, but it might each effectually. Let the one be supreme
arise. Suppose that New South Wales in national questions. At the same time,
has 26 representatives. We talk about when you are asking the other states to
combinations of the larger colonies against come in, subject to an efficient provision
the smaller colonies. I have not much fear for the protection of state interests, do not
about that. I am using the figures for the let that provision be frittered away in the
purpose of illustrating my case. If state mode which is now proposed, unless after
interests are really at issue let us suppose the most mature consideration. Under
this case-take the waters of the Murray, these circunstances, I shall move the
a matter to which we attach the most vital amendment which I suggested for the
importance, and in which state interests purpose of asking the House to stick to
are involved—you will have 26 New South the position which it seems to me is only
Welshmen and 24 Victorians in the house the logical and proper position—that in
of representatives, with 12 members in national questions the national will shall
the senate. There you have 62 men be supreme; but, where state interests
whose interests in a matter of this sort are involved, the state shall always be
would be opposed to the interests of the given the protection of the two majorities,
state through which the river Murray ulti- one of the house of; representatives, and,
mately flows. They have only, in the above all, the majority which is specially
one case, to get thirteen votes from the called into existence for the protection of
other states, for the purpose of enforc- those interests-the senate of the federal
ing their will against the will of the parliament.
majority of the states who would join, Mr. TRENWITH (Victoria) [11.38] :
or at least have been invited to join, this I regret extremely that I cannot see my
federation under the assurance that the way to support the proposal of my hon.
senate—a body specially called into exis- friend, Mr. Carruthers. I think he en-
tence for the protection of state interests tirely misconceives the effect it will have
[The Night Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
947
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
in operation if he assumes that it will tend are not called upon even to prove the fact
to lessen difficulties between opposing to any extent, but there is to be merely an
parties in the commonwealth. I have no expression of their opinion.
idea myself that we shall find states against Mr. SYMON : Does the hon. member
states at all; but we shall very rapidly think that the two-thirds will submit
find parties against parties in the common- tamely to that?
wealth, and our experience of parties has Mr. TRENWITH : If you make the
taught us that a substantial majority may provision in the constitution the two-thirds
exist in one house with a very substantial will have no option.
majority in opposition in another house. Mr. SYMON: Would that not be coercion?
If we find parties in that state in the Mr. TRENWITH: We are aiming
commonwealth--a party in the people's or to secure a solution of difficulties which
representative house with a substantial may arise between the two houses, and
majority, and, therefore, justified in the the only objection to a mass referendum
public interest in endeavouring to secure which I have heard urged is that state
legislative sanction to its will—we may, interests may be involved. Now, the pro-
by bringing down the majority in another posal of the right hon. the Premier of
house to join the minority in the people's South Australia does not provide that
house, prevent for all time the attain- one-third can demand a national referen-
ment of the wishes of an immense ma- dum, but that one-third can demand a
jority of the people of the commonwealth. state referendum, a dual referendum, a
Now, I think, on the other hand, that the referendum to the people as people, and
very fair proposal submitted by my right to the states as states, requiring before
hon. friend, Mr. C. C. Kingston, is one a decision is arrived at a majority of a
which ought to commend itself to both dual character. This seems to me to be a
sections of this Convention. It commends complete protection to those who are afraid
itself to me, who believe that, in every con- that state interests may be injured. I
ceivable circumstance, the majority of the think, and I desire to say that, in my
people should rule; but it seems to me opinion, we are under a debt of gratitude
that it should also commend itself to those to the right hon. member, Mr. Kingston,
who hold that there may arise contingen- representing as he does one of the numer-
cies in which distinctly state interests are ically smaller states, for his generosity
involved, and upon which, therefore, the and fairness in this matter. I do think
states have a right to speak as states, with- that in the struggle which we have had,
out regard to their numerical condition. in the maze in which we have found our-
The suggestion made by the right hon. selves in discussing this question, the right
gentleman provides that, unless a protest bon. gentleman has presented the only
be made, unless some objection be taken rational and tangible solution of the diffi-
to any question in dispute, it shall be culty of discovering what are national
treated as a national question, and shall questions, and what are state questions.
be dealt with by a reference to the people The Hon. J. H. Howe: One-half of the
by means of a mass referendum; but if, on population would have to be lawyers !
the other hand, state interests are involved, Mr. TRENWITH : The giving effect
it requires only one-third, a very small to the proposal of the right hon. the Pre-
number, not of the senate, but of the house mier of South Australia would not require
of representatives, to say that in their that there should be a single lawyer in the
opinion state interests are involved. They house.
948
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. WALKER : There are only twenty- like myself, who believe that the people,
five here !
as a people--that the citizens, as citizens
Mr. TRENWITH : There are probably of the commonwealth, should in the last
twenty too many, although I am willing resort decide all disputed points. It need
to concede that many of our discussions not frighten such as I, nor need it on the
would have been lame and impotent but other hand, frighten those who believe
for the great assistance we have received that a majority representing the larger
from legal members of the Convention. I states might, under certain conditions,
am not one of those who hold that the overbear and prejudice the interests of the
fact of one's being a lawyer should be a smaller states. Now, I would like to sub-
disqualification for any public position, but mit to hon, members a thought which was
I agree with a great many others who suggested the other day by a conversation
think that the fact of a man being a lawyer which I had with my hon. friend, Sir
often induces him to take an intensely Graham Berry. We have been talking all
technical view of public questions. How- the time about the states, the states, the
ever, that is not the subject under con- states, and forgetting almost entirely the
sideration now. I was endeavouring to object with which we came here. We came
show that there would be no necessity here representing states to create a nation
whatever for a legal knowledge in order to create bere, beneath the Southern
to ascertain whether in the opinion of the Cross, a nation, and thereby to secure for
senators the interests of a state were in- the states in the aggregate that respect in
volved in some question which it was pro- the councils of the world which has not
posed to submit to a referendum. Accord- been previously secured to them to give
ing to the right hon. gentleman's proposal to them a power of acting in concert, of
when a dispute arises and becomes so acute unity of action, to speak with a common
that either house demands a referendum voice upon matters in which, in existing
then, and not until then will arise the circumstances, they cannot so speak. But
further question of what kind of referen- we have allowed ourselves to forget the
dum there should be. If no protest be nation, and we have been continually
made there is a reference to all the citi- hovering round the states. Now, we should
zens of the commonwealth as citizens of endeavour to lift ourselves out of this posi-
the commonwealth ; but if a protest be tion. We should try to consider how we
made by so inconsiderable a number as are to make a nation-a nation calculated
one-third of the house of representatives, to secure respect among the nations of the
no matter how the majority may desire a world how we are to make our people
mass vote, a dual referendum will take citizens of such a commonwealth as would
place, a reference to the people as people, cause their hearts to beat more rapidly
and to the states as states; and unless a with a feeling of pride engendered by
majority is obtained under both conditions the kņowledge of their new citizenship.
the will of the senate will prevail, and We ought not to continuously and assidu-
legislation upon the disputed point will ously be hovering over our own little
be lost. Now, I put it respectfully to locality, and forgetting the great object
the hon. member, Mr. Symon, and to for which we are here. I conclude by im-
others who think with him that there is a pressing upon hon. members that the
danger of state interests being injured, manner in which we have discussed this
that this is a reasonable solution
question, the length of time we have
which need not frighten a bold democrat devoted to it
one
:
[Mr. Trenwith.
Commonwealth of
949
[21 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
i
An Hon. MIEMBER : Shows the import- closely touches our eternal federal salva-
ance of it!
tion. I, last night, formed a decision ad.
Mr. TRENWITH : The manner in verse to the proposal for the joint sitting
which the galleries are filled during the of the two houses, and my reflections since
time we are discussing this question, and then have tended only to confirm that
the way in which it is discussed in the view. I will be as brief as I can, and I
press during the time we are discussing it, certainly will not perorate, or use any
are all evidences that it may be properly words that I can avoid. In the first place,
described as the corner-stone of federal I consider that to carry this proposal
possibility; and if we are unable to settle would be to place an intolerable strain
it in a way that will meet with the ap- against the retention of the quota. Every
proval of the people, we shall have been force would be brought to bear, as has
wasting our time, we shall have been using been very properly pointed out by the hon.
the time we have spent in discussing this and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, to with-
bill uselessly and idly, and nothing will draw the concession of the quota which
result from our efforts. Because of the has already been made. My hon. and
important character of this particular ques- learned friend, Mr. Gordon, considers that
tion I would entreat hon. members to he has a safeguard in the pledges of the
make every possible concession when they right hon. the Premier of New South Wales
can without any sacrifice of principle that and the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers. I
they hold dear, and think to be important listened very carefully to what the latter
-to follow the lead so admirably set by hon. gentleman said, but I did not see that
my right hon. friend, Mr. Kingston, to he tied himself up quite so closely to this
forget whether they represent large or
matter as I should have liked. At the
small states, and to remember only that same time I am quite sure that anything
they are engaged in building up a nation those hon. gentlemen have said they will
of which they will be proud, and of which stand by; but, admitting that they will
their descendants will be proud in times stand by it, even the power and influence of
that are yet to come—a nation that will those two hon. gentlemen will not, I think,
stand the test of attacks from without, a be sufficient to stem the overwhelming de-
nation that will meet aggression from mand which will be made that, if this joint
abroad with a front sufficiently strong to sitting is to take place, the proportion of
repel it successfully, a nation that will be two to one as between the house of repre-
free from aggression from within of a sentatives and the senate must be over-
violent political character, because of the thrown. But, even supposing that the
safeguards, the machinery, and the safety. quota stands, we shall have this state of
valve, which have been placed within the things: we shall have a debate going on in
constitution itself.
a chamber in which there are two to one
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South as debaters-two members of the house
Australia) [11:52]: It must be a little of representatives to one member of the
disappointing to those who were so san- senate—and this would take place only
guine last night as to expect that this when feeling had already been accentuated
question would be decided without much and when an esprit de corps had sprung
further debate, to find to how great a up on the part of each house. Probably
length the discussion is likely to extend. under ordinary circumstances hon. mem-
It shows how difficult it is, in a few hours, bers are right in saying that the members
to decide a question like this, which so
of each chamber would not all vote ono
950 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
way, but I say that there would be a ten- from members of the senate and seventy-
dency to the formation of a corporate spirit two from members of the other house ?
in each house when a prolonged discussion The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Judging
had taken place, and I would not be at all from what we have seen, I think there will
surprised if, after there had been a double be a tendency in that way. Then you will
dissolution, and the senate had come back have the press present, and we all know
confirmed in their opinions, the members of and feel the power of the press.
each house voted practically almost solidly Mr. WALKER: This morning for instance !
on the matter in dispute. We all know The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Every
the strength of debate, we all know what morning during the last few weeks. It is
sort of debaters we shall have in this com- very hard to stand up against a powerful
monwealth parliament. We have seen a press, and it would be very hard for the
very fair sample of their quality in this con- senate to stand up against a powerful press
vention, and it is not easy for a minority to that was advocating the views of the house
stand up against speakers, two to one, ofsuch of representatives, to say nothing of the
ponderous power of oratory as we shall be mass meeting of members of parliament
likely to have. I say in all seriousness that will take place in the environment,
that I have never listened to such able which again is a difficult thing to stand up
debate as we have had here. I do not believe against. With all these influences against
that in any part of the world you could find it, the senate will be placed at a great dis-
a gathering in which more forcible, logical, advantage, and I as one who has stood by
and eloquent speeches are made, and I say the senate, and fought for the senate as a
that it would be a difficult thing for a safeguard -
minority of one or two to stand against The Hon. J. H. Howe: Stick to it still!
such influence. Besides, we should re- The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : And, as a
member that this joint sitting will probably guardian of democracy, I, for one, if this
be surrounded by the press, who will take proposal is carried, will take a last loving
the view of the house of representatives. look at the senate before it disappears into
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Will not the the interior of the chamber of representa-
minority have able debaters too ?
tives. Now the senate is being gradually
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No doubt, chipped into this subordinate position. It
but they will be only one to two, and we has already lost a great deal; but I think
know the importance in debate, where this will be its little all. In 1891 there
great issues are impending-say in a no- was practically no serious proposal for any
confidence debate-of following upa power- machinery by which the senate, when it
ful speaker on one side with a powerful felt it was doing its duty in standing up
speaker on the other side, and it would be against a majority of the population, should
a serious matter if we could put up only be compelled to give in.
be compelled to give in. Even in 1897, a
one powerful speaker against two powerful few months ago, in Adelaide, the proposal
speakers.
of the hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise,
The Hon. E. BARTON : They will be was practically scouted; but now he has
equal !
succeeded beyond his wildest dreams, and
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: They may a considerable majority has affirmed the
all have equal speaking value, but there principle of dissolution. I say that that is
will be two to one against the senate. as far as we ought to go in that direction.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Butthehon.member This proposal will amount to annihilation,
surely does not expect thirty-six speeches and it will amount to annihilation of the
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Conmonwealth of
951
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
senate at a time when it has returned from rather than see the proposal before us car-
its constituents confirmed in its view and ried I would see the term of office of the
satisfied that it is doing nothing wrong in senate reduced to the term of office of the
standing by the just rights of the people of house of representatives. That I do not fear;
the states. As my right hon. friend, the but I fear to see the senate prevented from
Premier of South Australia, has pointed acting, as it should act, as the bulwark of
out, this machinery is only going to work democracy. As to the parties in the com-
in one way—that is, for the house of repre- monwealth being divided into conservative
sentatives and against the senate. The and liberal parties, from any thought and
wheels will only revolve in one direction. reading I have given to the matter it is
It will remove deadlocks when they are the most arrantnonsense possible. America
caused by the senate ; but no power on
never has been, and is not at the present
earth could make it move in the other day, divided into parties of liberals and
direction to remove a deadlock caused conservatives. I defy any one to say
by the house of representatives. This is which is the liberal and which is the con-
simply another final and comprehensive servative party in America to-day. Be-
means of insuring that the house of repre- fore the parties in America had become
sentatives, like a spoilt child, shall have confused, and when they held fast to their
its way in the last resort. We hear about original reasons for existence, the party of
the rule of the people. Are not the people state rights was acknowledged to be the
of South Australia entitled to be heard? party of true democracy. The men who
In every word I have said here I have stood up for state rights and the protec-
been expressing, not my own views, but tion of home rule and government were
the opinions of the majority of the House men like Thomas Jefferson, and their names
of Assembly in South Australia. Those have been handed down reverently from
who talk about democracy and conser- parent to child, as those of the guardians
vatism will do well to consider that if the of liberty and democracy in America. The
views I am expressing are tory and con- men who were called federalists, who went
servative views, the House of Assembly for nationalism as against state rights,
in South Australia is a tory and conserva- men like Hamilton, with all his genius
tive body, which is ridiculous. I do not and transcendent power—where are they
believe there exists a more enlightened
Their names are not household
democracy in the world than the repre- names in America, as are the names of
sentative house in South Australia.
Jefferson and those who worked with him.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: They passed So it will be here. Unless we have some
a resolution in favour of the dual referen- great civil war, which will confuse all the
dum !
issues and blur all the party lines in Aus-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Which I tralia, and which I hope we shall never
have voted for. We passed an amendment have, we shall have the same parties here
in favour of a dissolution, and I voted for as existed from the first in America.
it to save the senate from the charge and Parties will be clearly defined : there will
penalty of being a conservative body. I be those who wish to see local govern-
have agreed to a dissolution of the senate, ment, home rule, and state entity pre-
because I did not want that body to stand served; and those who wish to see all these
strong against popular opinion, and because safeguards of the liberty of the people
I wanted to see it strong only in so far as it blurred, confused, and obliterated in a cen-
was reinforced by popular opinion. But tral government, which will be situated at
now ?
952
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
a place too far distant for the people of The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No. What I
Australia ever to be able to ensure effect meant was that we said distinctly that we
being given to their views. I thoroughly should vote for that if the other was not
believe that this last proposal may belooked carried !
upon as, indeed, a proposal for finality. It Mr. SYMON: I know what the hon.
is a final proposal for the extinction of and learned member said, and I think that
the senate, of state rights, and of liberty. I gave to his utterance the weight to which,
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:5]: under the circumstances, it is entitled. At
I submit to the hon. member, Dr. Cock- any rate, for the moment the national re-
burn, that he is, perhaps, just a little pre- ferendum has been rejected by the Con-
maturein pronouncing so splendid a funeral vention. Then we had a proposal for a
oration upon the senate.
the senate. It does not ap- dual referendum, which it was admitted
pear to me that the senate is in any such would be ineffective ; but it was thought
imminent danger of extinction or efface- that at any rate it would put off the risk of
ment as my hon. friend seems to think. a continual conflict between the houses for
The object we have all had in view during a sufficient time to enable graver consider-
the last few days of debate has been to ation to be given to the question at issue,
arrive at some means of securing finality. and more moderate views to prevail, so
We have declared by a vote of two to that if the referendum had in the long run
one that some provision should be inserted to be adopted, it would at any rate have
in the constitution for the prevention of effectually preserved the system of identity
what are called deadlocks. We have agreed of states by requiring a majority not only
upon the principle so far that, amongst of the people but also of the states. That
others, at any rate, there shall be a disso- also was rejected last night. Now we come
lution of the senate, either in the shape of to the proposal which was indicated by the
a successive dissolution, or, if the Right right hon. member, Mr. Reid, and which
Hon. Sir George Turner's proviso as it has been formally submitted by the hon.
may be amended is added, by way of member, Mr. Carruthers. It seems to me
alternative, a simultaneous dissolution of that it, at any rate, holds out a solution in
the house of representatives and thesenate. the direction of finality upon questions as
A large number of hon. members say that to which there may be a difference of
that is insufficient, that it might possibly opinion between the two houses of the
leave things where they were. Various federal parliament. Of the three schemes
proposals have been made with a view to to which I have referred, this appears to
remedying this objection. Amongst them be the best. It has been suggested by
there has been that of the national refer- those who have hitherto been very staunch
endum, which the Convention would not advocates of the national referendum, that
have at any price.
it provides, not in substitution, but in suc-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There has been cession to a dissolution-- which, in my
no regular vote upon it !
judgment, will be absolutely effectual of
Mr. SYMON: There has been some- itself ---simply another safety-valve, which,
thing uncommonly like it then. It was however it may work, will have the result
intended to be a straight-out vote. I know at any rate of being final. To that extent
the intimation which my hon. friend, doing surely it is an immense advance. I feel
violence to his convictions, I think, has that when the opposition to it is very
given, that possibly, if we are not civil largely from one of the representatives of
and obedient, he will retrace his steps. one of the small states, it cannot be so
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
953
[21 SEPT:, 1897.)
Australia Bill.
advantageous to the interests of the senate, tect also, there seems to be the contention
or the less populous states, as some mem- that there would be those strong lines of
bers seem to think. The objection of the demarcation between states and states. I
Right Hon. C. C. Kingston to this scheme do not believe it. First of all, I believe
is that it will not afford the protection to that in the houses themselves the members
the senate and the smaller states that he will vote according to their individual con-
wishes to afford. The representatives of the victions, and the cases will be infrequent
larger state of Victoria object to it because in the last degree in which they will feel
it will give too much protection to the bound to vote in a body with regard to
senate and the smaller states. So that there any state question or interest. If such a
is evidently some misapprehension, and case occurs, and you have the senate and
between the two there may be considerable the house of representatives meeting to-
merit. Of course you may have criticism gether, you will have a solution of what
of that kind addressed to any scheme that you call a deadlock. Hon. members seem
may be submitted to the Convention. to forget that you have first a double dissolu-
Those who believe that there should be tion either in the shape of a successive or a
something in addition to the dissolution of concurrent dissolution. Will anybody tell
the two houses, must seek to arrive, if me that after that, if the difference still
they can, at something which will reach exists, the two houses when they meet to-
this finality with the least possible mis- gether as one assembly, will not be pre-
chief. It seems to me that this proposal pared to deal with the matter in a spirit
will reach finality with the least possible of moderation and fairness? Will anybody
mischief. What is more, my belief is that tell me that those who meet together on
it will very rarely, if ever, be called into such an occasion will not be actuated by
operation. I have no such apprehension as a desire to come to some reasonable con-
has been urged with regard to the required clusion, and will not have their differences
majority. I do not believe in analys- and angles rubbed off by the discussion
ing figures, and saying so many figures which must take place ? I do not entertain
will make two-thirds, and so many one- the slightest apprehension that, if it should
third, and that if the vote goes one way ever be necessary to call such a conference
you will have the house of representatives into being with a view of supplying an
dominating the senate, and that if a cer- ultimate rule of finality, there will be
tain minority vote in another way, you any danger either of a combined vote of
will have the house of representatives the small states in the senate seeking to
dominated by the senate. I do not think overbear the larger body in the house of
that any correct result can be arrived at representatives, or the larger body in the
by such statements. You cannot intro- house of representatives seeking to over-
duce a mathematical calculation of that bear the smaller body in the senate. At
kind into the operations of a deliberative any rate, we are here now doing our best
body of human beings.
to deal with an exceedingly knotty and
Mr. HIGGINS : They will not all vote difficult question in the interests of all
one way-senators and representatives ! the colonies. Looking at the fact that
Mr. SYMON: No. Underlying the differences of opinion now exist in all the
objection to this scheme on the part of states and amongst us as individuals com-
those who are seeking naturally and rightly posing this assembly, I say we have a
to protect the rights of the individual constitutional object lesson as to what
states, which I emphatically wish to pro- will happen in our federal parliament and
954
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.
federal conference. The hon. member, Dr. that object will be accomplished in the
Cockburn, said that to adopt this proposal majority of cases by a double dissolution or
would be really as if you were treating some form of dissolution, there can be no
the house of representatives as a spoilt objection to inserting this additional provi-
child, who, in every complaint, was to have sion asked for by New South Wales.
his own way. I do not agree with that The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
position at all. It seems to me you are would rather have nothing than take it !
interposing difficulties and obstacles in the Mr. SYMON: I am afraid that would
way of either house having its own will, be acting like the spoilt child that the hon.
without careful consideration and without member, Dr. Cockburn, compared the house
the lapse of sufficient time for moderate of representatives to. Another proposal bas
counsels to prevail. By adopting this pro- been submitted, and I confess it is exceed-
posal, ineffective as it may be, open to ingly ingenious; but, whilst I consider it is
criticism as it may be, like every other pro- ingenious, I think it would be most mis-
posal, I believe you are taking at least one chievous. It involves this: We have de-
step towards that ultimate finality which cided against the national referendum and
you are so anxious to secure. On that against the dual referendum ; but this pro-
ground, at any rate, it is a step to which posal is to embody in the constitution
we might well give our assent. The Right both referendums—the dual and the na-
Hon. Sir George Turner said he was quite
tional. I do not know how we can very
satisfied with the double dissolution. well place ourselves in that position, after
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I did having rejected each of these in succession.
not say quite satisfied.
I said that I was We have said that they were bad separ-
satisfied that in the vast majority of cases ately, but the combination of the two has
the double dissolution would answer the removed the vice of each, and we now have
purpose.
a most virtuous combination in accepting
Mr. SYMON: That is quite sufficient the two referendums together.
for my argument. I agree with my right The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : It is
hon. friend that either form of dissolu- taking the good of each !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is the hon.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No.! member putting it in a fair way?
Mr. SYMON: I do not expect the right
Mr. SYMON: I think so. What does
hon. member to assent to that; but from it mean to embody the dual and national
my point of view either form of dissolu- referendums in the constitution? Does it
tion, successive or concurrent, will render not involve the acceptance of the dual and
any other provision unnecessary. But if the national referendums? If we put in
my right hon. friend does think that the the national referendum apart from the
double dissolution will serve the purpose, rest of this proposal, it would only apply
where can the objection be from his point to the cases to which it was applicable.
of view and the point of view of his col- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No; the na-
leagues to insert the provision of the hon. tional referendum was to apply to all
member, Mr. Carruthers, providing for this cases; the dual referendum, as proposed,
subsequent conference between the two was also to apply to all cases; but in this
houses? I am sure my right hon. friends proposal the national referendum is to
are not actuated by any pique or anything apply to national questions, and the dual
of that kind. They are desirous of accom- referendum is to apply to all cases of state
plishing the object we all have in view. If rights-each to its appropriate class !
tion
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
. 955
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. SYMON: Then it applies to all Mr. SYMON : There would be by this
the cases to which it is applicable--that is proposal. What we are desirous of doing is
to all the cases, under the constitution, of to keep it out; but if you are going to hand
differences between the two houses. So over the determination whether a particu-
will the referendum apply to all the cases lar question shall involve a state interest,
under the constitution to which it is ap- or simply a national interest, you ought
plicable—that is, to all the cases of dif- to hand it over to some body entirely in-
ferences between the two houses.
dependent and removed from the house of
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER :
representatives or the senate, for the
Mr. SYMON: No; my hon. friend is matter of that—who would be capable of
leaping before he comes to the stile. Now, bringing to bear on it a calm and dispas-
what is proposed here? You are to have sionate consideration, and solving what
both referendums under the constitution; would really be, not a question of politics,
but you are not to bring them into appli- but a question of law. You could not do
cation, except in a certain class of cases such a thing by means of this proposal;
referable, or supposed to be referable, to
it is admitted to be impossible that you
each. You are not to allow that to be can sever national questions from state
decided by the executive government, who, questions. It is admitted to be impossible,
I think, would be a better body to decide and yet you are going to shift this impos-
it, if it were to be decided in that way, sibility on to the shoulders of a proportion
than a deliberative assembly, or a propor-
of a deliberative body. If hon. members
tion of a deliberative assembly; but you think that that can be conveniently done,
leave a certain proportion—it is immaterial or they look forward with pleasure to what
whether that proportion is a third or a the results of it would be, it is not a view
half of the house of representatives to which I take. My right hon. friend, Mr.
decide whether or not a particular ques- Kingston's, proposal, reminds one of the
tion is one affecting national or state story of the man who went about selling
interests, and whether or not a dual re- pills which were good against earthquakes.
ferendum or a national referendum shall This proposal would have no effect what-
be applied.
ever in stopping inflamed feeling or putting
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : In other words, a satisfactory end to a legitimate difference
you allow a small proportion of the smaller of opinion between the two houses ; but it
states to decide whether they will have it would produce further complications and
applied to other states !
distraction and bad feeling, every oppor-
Mr. SYMON: You allow a certain pro- tunity for the creation of which, it seems
portion, which may be of the smaller states, to me, we ought, if possible, to avoid. My
to decide ; and the decision-it will be no hon. friend, Mr. Trenwith, says that this
decision, it will be influenced by prejudice, was a generous proposal to come from the
by strong feeling for their own particular representatives of thesmallerstates. When
state. You would introduce elements of one hears an expression like that one is
discord of the very worst possible kind, apt to suspect whether it is going to have
and in the very worst possible place where the effect of protecting the senate as is
they can be introduced-into the house of suggested. At any rate, as far as I am
representatives.
concerned, looking at all the proposals
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I thought the which have been made, it seems to me
hon. and learned member said there would that we should do well to support that
be none of that!
which has been submitted by the hon,
956
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
member, Mr. Carruthers, as, at any rate, adopt that course; if it is impracticable
although not free from criticism and good we cannot help it. The scheme which he
ground of criticism, a step towards that proposes, defective though it may be, is
finality which we are anxious to reach. I, one step at any rate towards that finality
however, object to its being attached to which we are all desirous of reaching-
the alternative proposal embodying the a finality, at the same time, which some
simultaneous dissolution. I will support of us at least believe will be abundantly
the proposal made by my lion. friend, Mr. secured by the provision for the dissolution
Carruthers. ;. but I will oppose the inser- of the senate and of the house of represen-
tion of the proviso, which will contain the tatives which we have already passed, and
amendment of my hon. and learned friend,
hon. and learned friend, which I have no doubt the Convention
Mr. Wise, and also this addendum pro- will finally adopt in some shape or form.
posed by my hon. friend, Mr. Carrutbers. Motion (Hon. J. H. HOWE) negatived:
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
That the Committee do now divide.
means that you will come back to the origi- Mr. McMILLAN (New South Wales)
nal motion you carried, and nothing else! [12-28]: I only want to say a word or two
Mr. SYMON : No.
at this stage. My course is going to be a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Yes, very simple one I intend to vote against
certainly !
every proposal which may come up after
Mr. SYMON: In addition to the pro- this one is decided for settling a deadlock.
posal of my hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers. I think it would be far better for us to re-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : No;
main where we are. I cannot help think-
because it all forms part of one proposal ing, although this proposal was in a sort
we had in the bill, and you must vote for of tentative shape before the Convention
or against the lot.
at Adelaide, and has been more or less in
Mr. SYMON: No. My hon. friend, Mr. the minds of some hon. members during
Carruthers, intimated last evening-I am this sitting, it was, to a certain extent,
glad of the interjection, because it enables sprung suddenly upon us yesterday. I
me to make this clear—that he would more think it is a very serious thing when the
this as an amendment to the proposal of the whole trend of the mind of hon. members
right hon. gentleman, Sir George Turner,
was in the direction of some kind of re-
and that if it were not carried in that shape, ferendum to have, in a few hours, an abso-
then he would move it as an addition to lutely new proposal put before them, and
my proposal which was carried on Friday. for us to be asked to give a definite deci-
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to sion upon it. Now, I do not agree with
the hon. and learned member that that my hon, and learned friend, Mr. Symon.
cannot be done. We cannot continue to I think that if there had been some pro-
discuss and rediscuss the same proposals. posal that we had been discussing for days,
The Hon. E. BARTON : On recommittal! such as that involving the referendum, or
The CHAIRMAN: It can be done on the even the proposal of the right hon. mem-
recommittal of the bill.
ber, Mr. Kingston, that might have been
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That will not put in as a tentative thing upon recon-
be fair to those who will be away!
sideration; but I think it is a very serious
Mr. SYMON: At any rate, sir, I am thing for us in a sort of feeling of despair
very glad to have got your ruling on that in our debates to come to a certain con-
question. My hon. friend, Mr. Carruthers, clusion in a few hours to be called upon to
intimated last night that he intended to consider a proposal involving an entirely
1
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
957
[ 21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
new departure. I am absolutely against who might be inclined, out of a sort of
the proposal. I have given it every con- false consistency, to stick to what they
sideration. I do not think it would work had advocated
well. And I do not think it would be Mr. Higgins : What is the objection to
acceptable to the democracy of the larger the scheme from the hon. member's point
colonies. As far as the quota is concerned, of view ?
if you pass this amendment you must make Mr. MCMILLAN: I am not going to
some provision by which the majority, say, discuss it now. I believe, as I say, that
of three-fifths shall go up or go down it bristles with a great many difficulties.
according to the alteration of the relative
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: Will the hon.
strength of the houses.
That of course
member please point them out?
can be done in a certain way, and by a
Mr. MCMILLAN: It has this disad-
mode mechanical, but at the same time
vantage, which I have felt in many other
some of those who are inclined to vote for
matters that have been brought before the
this proposal are absolutely against this
Convention--that it is absolutely impos-
hard and fast quota, and I am inclined to
sible to see the combinations which may
believe that the author of that quota has
exist between the two houses on certain
come to the conclusion that it has not so
questions under discussion. I also see that
many advantages as he has imagined. I
consider myself that it bristles with dis-
it may give rise, under certain circum-
advantages. I also feel that, looking at
stances, to a large amount of corruption-
this matter from a fair and impartial point
to a large amount of wire-pulling; and I
of view, the decision to which we would
also see that a meeting of the two houses,
come by passing this amendment would based upon totally different principles, is
put the representatives from Victoria in a inconsistent with a federal government.
very awkward position. There is no doubt But, as I said before, I would prefer that
that there has been a great effort on their this matter lay open for calm considera-
part, as well as on the part of New South tion, and, as far as I am concerned, I am
Wales, to come to some understanding, willing, with this as with every other scheme
which, whilst meeting with the wishes of which has been brought forward, to give it
their own democracy would be fair to the the best consideration. And if I feel that,
other states; and by a peculiar concurrence although it is not exactly the one that I
of circumstances yesterday, which nobody
believe in, yet it is the best of the whole,
could foresee, those who were really the
I shall be as ready to subserve my own
advocates of a national referendum became
views to the majority as any one in this
the destroyers of any referendum whatever.
Convention. I see there is a difficulty,
Therefore, I say most distinctly, that we
according to the rules of the Convention,
have now reached a stage which many
in getting back to the position in which
never expected, as a solution of this ques-
we were stopped at the work of last night.
tion, and that it is much better that we
I find that the amendment of the hon.
should remain at this stage, leaving it for
the interval to give counsel, judgment, and
member, Mr. Wise, states :
Provided that the senate shall not be dissolved
reflection, and then we will be able to con-
within a period of six months immediately pre-
sider all the schemes-not the scheme that
ceding the date of the expiry by effluxion of
may be embodied now in our deliberations, time of the duration of the house of representa-
and which would, of course, have an un-
tives.
fair advantage, and which might possibly That is really the point to which we have
commit those to it whom the lapse of time
arrived.
might cause to reverse their decision, but Mr. LYNE: Which point?
958
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. McMILLAN: The point at which agreed to last night practically rescinds the
the hon. member introduced his amend- clause already adopted, although I am
ment. Unfortunately we have gone further aware it was moved as an alternative to
than that as a matter of order, and we have the procedure under the clause proposed
inserted :
by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
And if after such dissolution the proposed law Symon. I promised the right hon. gen-
fails to pass with or without amendment the tleman, Mr. Reid, that I would support
proposed law may be referred to the direct
him in the proposal he made that in order
determination of the people.
to provide efficiently for deadlocks, the
Of course if we negative both of these pro- house of representatives should, in the first
posals, then we shall leave in a nonsensical
instance, be dissolved, and after its return
sentence; but I would now appeal to hon.
from the country, if the senate and the
members as a matter of getting through house of representatives were still unable
the remainder of our work, and as a means
to agree, then there should be a reference
of freeing every member of the Convention
to both houses sitting together. · I am pre-
from any sense of inconsistency, freeing pared to abide by that promise; but I ex-
him from any absolute obligation to any pect that if I do so, those who made it will
scheme after this interim process—if it is
also keep faith with me. I think there
an interim process — I would appeal to has been rather an inclination to go away
hon. members, both on the ground of get- from the proposition which has been made.
ting through the remainder of our work, It seems to me that those who made this
and on the ground of leaving each with a
proposal are now quite ready to accept the
free and open mind for the future discus- simultaneous. dissolution of both houses,
sion, to let well alone, and to stop this and if that be so they cannot, of course,
deadlock business at the stage we have expect that I shall keep faith with them,
Teached.
and vote for the conference which they
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
propose with the simultaneous dissolution
(Western Australia) [12:37]: The proces provisions, tacked on to it. I am very much
dure we adopted yesterday has placed us, I inclined to agree with the hon. member,
think, in an unsatisfactory position. I think
Mr. McMillan, that the best course for us
that, if the course suggested had been fol-
to pursue would be to leave the clause pro-
lowed—that is, of taking a vote as to posed by the hon. member, Mr. Symon,
whether the clause proposed by the hon. in the bill, and to postpone the further
and learned member, Mr. Symon, should discussion to another time.
be rescinded or not-Wevould have known Mr. MCMILLAN : The amendment of
better where we are than we do at the pre- the hon. member, Mr. Wise !
sent time. We have now before us. a. reso- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
lution of the Committee in the form of a The amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
clause which was proposed by the hon. and Wise, is only a piece of a clause. When
learned member, Mr. Symon, and we have a clause which embodies the amendment
also alternate proposals, carried last night, of the hon. member, Mr. Wise, is put, I
which are altogether the opposite to that intend to vote against it. I do not believe
which has already been embodied in the in
any
alternative in this constitution. The
bill by the will of the Convention. I have course to be followed should be a clear
been all along, as hon. members are aware, course 3
it should be one course, and not
opposed to simultaneous dissolution of both two or three courses. I see no necessity
houses. But it seems to me that what was for: leaving two courses open for any go-
t
[Mr. McMillan.
Conmonwealth of
959
[21 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
vernment to follow. Surely it is sufficient altogether opposed, and I am not prepared
that we should embody in clear terms the to do that. If the hon. member, Mr. Car-
course that is to be followed under the ruthers, wishes to have any support from
constitution ? I would much rather have me I hope he will try to put his motion in
Mr. Symon's clause rescinded, and Mr. shape either by itself, or else as following
Wise's clause inserted in its place, than I after the clause already agreed to, and I
would allow both of them to remain. I
shall then be very glad to give it as much
should be very glad if the representatives support as I can.
of New South Wales would adhere to the Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [12:44] : I
proposal they made last night--that is, rose principally when the hon, member,
that one house should be dissolved, and Mr. McMillan, sat down, with a view of
that then, if an agreement could not be objecting
objecting to what he suggested. I strongly
obtained, the conference should take place. deprecate the suggestion that we should
I believe that proposal would meet with separate without in some way indicating
the support of a large majority of the the best view we can come to with regard
members of the Convention. But if these to giving finality. I think it is unjust to
hon. gentlemen are going to run away from the public and unjust to the members of
the proposal they made, and not keep parliament in the different colonies who
faith with us, then I shall be obliged to have to advise about it. There is no doubt
vote against the proposal altogether. that, whatever sneers may be indulged in
The Hon. E. BARTON : Who is running about members of parliament, they have
away?
great influence in their constituencies, and
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: we ought to recollect that, if we separate
The proposal made by the right hon. mem- without agreeing to some provision for
ber Mr. Reid, it seems to me, is not being finality, we shall have all sorts of schemes
supported now in the way I expected it bandied about from one to the other, and
would be by that hon. gentleman, and also we shall not have anything definite and
by the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers. I concrete upon which members of parlia-
may have misunderstood them.; but I should ment and others can address the public
like to have means provided for carrying from the platform. It is not correct to
out the proposal which was made, and then treat the proposal of the hon, member,
I should be able to vote with them most Mr. Carruthers, as entirely novel. It was
thoroughly. If, however, the proposal of discussed in Adelaide ; ite has been dis-
Mr. Wise is to remain, then I am not pre- cussed in the press, and has often been the
pared to add on anything to it. I disap- subject of debate.
prove of it altogether, and I should be The Hon. E. BARTON : It was proposed,
bound, when the insertion of the clause is with a slight difference by Mr. O'Connor,
put by the Chairman, to vote against it. I and in another form by Mr. Carruthers in
regret very much that the hon. member, Adelaide, and there was a good deal of
Mr. Carruthers, should have tacked on his discussion.
proposals to those of Mr. Wise. If he had An Hon. MEMBER : I heard of it twenty-
moved his proposals separately, or else in five years ago!
addition to the clause moved by the hon. Mr. HIGGINS: It is a mistake to think
and learned member, Mr. Symon, we that this thing is rushed. We should show
should have known what we were doing ; the greatest weakness and incapacity as a
but, as it is, we are asked to approve of an Convention if we were to say that this pro-
addition to a substance to which we are blem is too hard for us to solve, and we
1
960 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
ought to put in something to secure finality. ordinarily conceive to be tories on the same
But, of course, the hon. member recognises side as those whom we conceive to be
that the double dissolution, although good liberals. Wrongly, as I think, but rightly
in its way, will not secure finality.
as the majority of hon, members here think,
Mr. McMILLAN : There is nothing more we have decided upon allowing each state
simple than to put something in !
to be equally represented in one house.
Mr. HIGGINS:Put soinething, and the The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : This
best you can. I intend to vote for the scheme is the nearest approach to unequal repre-
of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, though sentation !
I should like to amend it in one respect, Mr. HIGGINS: That is decided so far as
which I shall presently point out.
the present sitting of the Convention is con-
Mr. LYNE : In what direction?
cerned. The effect of it is this : you have
Mr. HIGGINS: In the direction of put the sovereignty in commission, as it
allowing the majority to decide. As to the were ; you have it half in the people and
proposal in its present shape we shall be in have in the states. You are putting the
a very strange jumble in our voting. The sovereignty, the ultimate yea or nay, in
Attorney-General of Victoria has indicated two bodies, with two inconsistent voices,
that he thinks the proposal for a joint sit- and the only possible way in which you
ting of both houses would be unfair to the can secure finality is to get those two
house of representatives and unfair to the voices together in one joint sitting. If in
people, because they would have sitting this joint sitting you put these two voices
with them the representatives of the senate, together, you will see what is the ultimate
representing the minority of the people. result, and you will at least get finality. Of
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : With equal re- course I shall hope that, hereafter, before
presentation !
we absolutely pass the constitution, the
Mr. HIGGINS: On the other hand, the senate will be so modified as not to include
right hon, member, Mr. Kingston, says that basis of equal representation which
that we must not have this joint sitting has been alluded to. At the same tinie, I
because it is unfair to the senate, and the want to secure finality by some means.
senate would be wiped out. I understand, There is nothing so bad as leaving it in
then, that these two extremes will vote this state of divided power, and the only
the same way with different objects—one way to get finality is to get these two
in order to prevent injustice to the lower inconsistent sovereign powers together,
house, and the other in order to prevent and see which is the stronger in the end.
injustice to the senate.
The amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Different cases ! Carruthers, is not that there may be an
Mr. HIGGINS: There has only been amendment passed by the two houses on
one referendum put before this Convention, their joint sitting, but that the members
and I voted for it. I do not recognise any of the two houses deliberating and voting
referendum but a national referendum. together shall say whether the proposal
The Hon. E. BARTON : Are there no should be adopted or rejected according to
eggs but hen eggs?
those présent and voting. The amendment
Mr. HIGGINS: There are goose eggs. of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers-I
The Hon. E. BARTON: Of course there are ! do not mean the original paper distributed, ,
Mr. HIGGINS: We shall have a but the amendment as before the Chair-
strange medley in our voting at the joint is simply adoption or rejection. The diffi-
sitting. We shall find those whom we culty about amending or suggesting amend-
[Mr. Higgins.
Conmonuealth of
961
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
ments in a money bill, therefore, do not The CHAIRMAN : There is already an
arise. It would be a question of "yea" or amendment by the hon. member, Mr.
"nay." Shall the proposal be adopted or Howe, to strike out those words.
not? As I said yesterday, I agree firmly Mr. HIGGINS: If they be struck out,
with the criticism of the hon, member, Mr. I intend to move that there be inserted
Isaacs, that you cannot allow amendments in their place the words “a majority.”
on a joint sitting in the case of a money bill,
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [12:54]:
because you would be giving the senate that
Whenever I hear any one apologising, I
which we have taken from them, but upon
suspect that something is wrong. Now,
the mere question of adoption or rejection,
the hon. member, Dr. Cockburn, apologised
when it is remembered that this joint sit-
for the vote which he gave for the amend-
ting is only to take place after the ordi-
ment of the hon. and learned member,
nary constitutional method of appeal to
Mr. Symon. The hon. member seems to
the constituencies—of a dissolution-has
have apologised for haring done so on the
occurred, I say that there is little or no
score that, although setting up a senate
danger in simply saying, "Let the two
with such exceptional powers, he was not
houses sit together, and let us see on the
really creating a conservative body. I
count of heads, which side has the most."
differ from the hon. and learned mem-
I shall hope also that before dealing ber, and that is one of the reasons which
with the bill at its ultimate stage we may
actuated me in opposing Mr. Symon's
abolish the quota system which compels one
amendment, and which will still influence
senator for every two members of the house
me in that direction. If we set up two
of representatives. I shall hope that that
houses equal as regards the suffrage, and
will be knocked on the head; but at the
armed with the same powers, we shall find
same time, I am bound to say this : that if
one body obstructing the work of the
the quota system be retained, a joint sit-
other. Now, when the Canadian federa-
ting is the only reasonable method I can
tion was instituted, it was stated by Lord
see of arriving at finality. The proposal Elgin, when the proposition was made to
of the right hon. the Premier of South
establish a senate based on a pretty wide
Australia does not obtain finality. It
suffrage, that a senate set upon such a
simply leaves the matter where it was.
basis, and practically as strong as was the
Assuming that by a resolution of the two
lower house, would be a strong body to fight
houses you come to the conclusion that it
on the side of conservatism. As regards
is a question which ought to be referred
the French Chamber, an attempt was made
to the states, and if you have a refer-
to sweep its effective power away, to pre-
endum to the states and people, and they vent it from exercising the large powers
do not agree, still there will be no finality.
conferred upon it, upon grounds similar to
My strong objection to the suggestion is
those
upon which supporters of the amend-
that it does not secure finality. As I said
ment of the hon. member, Mr. Symon, rely.
before, I fear that there would be offered
I take up this position: That if you endow
too strong a temptation to the opposition men of intellectualenergy with great powers
to vote that a thing was a states ques- they will not allow those powers to rust. I
tion in order to embarrass the government
rely upon the celebrated dictum of that
of the day and to prevent a certain bill
great master of human nature who said :
from being carried. I shall conclude by
He that made us with such large discourse,
moving:
looking before and after, gave us not this capa-
That the word "three-fifths" be onitted. bility and god-like reason to fust unused.
3 x
962
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
I find in the annals of the “ American might equally find itself to some extent nul-
Academy of Political and Social Science," lified. That might happen under the pro-
the following with regard to the case of posal of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers,
the French Senate:-
but I think the analogy between the two
It was maintained, with regard to the first, cases is perfect. You have two commit-
that the Senate could not justly be asked to act tees, different in number, combining into
merely as a registering machine in the case of
one, and allowing legislation to proceed
money bills. A house of lords composed of here-
ditary members, or an upper chamber largely
upon the vote of two-thirds. What is
named by the sovereign, might with some reason the position as regards Mr. Carruthers"
be required to yield in case of conflict'; but the
amendment? I do not care whether you
French Senate sprang from universal suffrage,
equally with the Chamber of Deputies, even
take the proportion of three-fifths or two-
though indirectly, and it could not reasonably thirds as the basis of legislation. We will
be required to efface itself.
say that there is a total of 112 members,
I say that the same principle operates of whom 76 are in the house of re-
here as in France, and that, if you estab- presentatives. Under the three-fifths pro-
lish two chambers, equal in regard to the posal the majority required would be 67.
basis of representation and invested with There is a fraction, but that will not
the same powers, you will find one chamber affect the argument. The two large states
obstructing the work of the other, upon
will furnish 50 of that number. From
the principle suggested by the quotation I the senate there would be 12 ; so, with
have just made; because one chamber will the combination, we would get 62 out
decline to, by inaction, efface itself, and of the required 67; therefore, we would
also from the perversity of human nature. then have to get 5. To make up 5 there
A part, altogether, from the question of a would be a balance of 26 in the house of
federation, I am strongly opposed to the representatives, and of 24 in the senate-
principle of Mr. Symon's amendment. The a total of 50. If you take two-thirds, the
hon. member, Mr. Isaacs, urged in opposi- number required will be 74 to form the
tion to Mr. Carruthers' proposition that necessary majority, and, to get that, we
there was no analogue in existence to would have, as before, 62 members in the
justify its adoption. I fail to see that there house of representatives, and the senate,
is any substantial distinction between the who could be called upon by the two large
Norwegian scheme and this scheme. In states. So the number to be made
up
is
Norway, also, you have the numerical dis- 12, and, as I have already mentioned in
parity between one house and the other, yet connection with the three-fifths proportion,
you have two houses joining together. in the case of the two-thirds, to make up
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Originally one 12 you would have a balance of 50 mem-
house divided into two committees ! bers—that is 26 in the house of repre-
Mr. GLYNN: Originally one house, re- sentatives, and 24 in the senate.
solved itself into two committees, the
[The Chairman left the chair at 1 p.m. The
number of one committee being greater
Committee resumeil at 2:5 p.m.]
than the number of the other. These two
committees again merged into one, the dis-
Mr. GLYNN: Just before the adjourn-
proportion of numbers being still carried ment I was endeavouring to point out
out. Therefore, the minority represented
to the Committee that no matter what
on the one side would, to as great an extent majority you have, three-fifths or two-
as under the amendment before us, be in thirds
danger of being out-voted, and the majority An Hon. MEMBER: Or three-fourths !
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
963
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
Mr. GLYNN: I have not gone into the I may call grounds of mere abstract or a
figures as regards a three-fourths majority, priori consideration as to what would be
for I do not think that the Convention likely to take place in the voting and as to
would agree to a three-fourths majority, the prospects of obtaining the balance to
which would be rather unfair to the larger make up a majority. But look at what
states. But, whichever may be the ma- takes place in France. As I mentioned
jority most likely to be accepted by the last night, on a question arising as to a
Convention, I take it that the large states revision of the constitution, the National
need have very little fear that their de- Assembly consists of an amalgamation of
mands would not receive adequate and just the two houses for the purpose of voting.
recognition. In the case of three-fifths, the The Senate is composed of 300 members,
majority to be made up will be 67. As a and the Chamber of Deputies, being on a
matter of state interests will by assumption population basis, is composed of a larger
be involved, it is just to take it for granted number.
that an amalgamation of votes will ulti- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : 573!
mately take place, and by this amalgama- Mr. GLYNN: Yes, about that number.
tion the large states get in the house of
I know that it is one for every 100,000 of
represcntatives 50 votes, and in the senate the population. I do not know the exact
12, making a total of 62. Therefore, the number of deputies now; but, as the hon.
balance to be made up, in the case of a
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, has men-
three-fifths majority, would be only 5, and, tioned, the proportion is about 300 to 573.
in the case of a two-thirds majority, they Therefore, on amalgamation there, the same
would have 62, on the proportions already grounds of fear would be capable of being
mentioned, and the number to be made up urged that are being put forward here by
would be only 12. I say that if the policy, representatives of the smaller states; and,
support of which were required by the larger from another point of view, by representa-
states, were one which could not secure, tives of the larger states, if they voted on
a three-fifths majority, a balance of 5 votes, amalgamation according to the numerical
or if in the case of a two-thirds majority, strength of the separate houses. But they
it was one which could not secure a balance do not; and that is the reason why I say
of 12 votes, I fail to see how it could be that there would be very little difficulty
founded on justice, reason, or expediency. experienced by the larger states in making
In the case of a consolidation of votes, if up the small balance of five or twelve.
the policy were one that had the slightest The assumption of block voting against
recommendation of justice and expediency, reason is not justified by experience. I
there ought to be little difficulty on the mentioned last night-I think hon. mem-
part of the large states in getting, in one bers will excuse me for repeating the
case a balance of 5, and in the other case figures, because they are exceedingly im-
a balance of 12. I think hon, members portant from this point of view—that on
will agree with that position; and, there- matters involving in some cases almost the
fore, without saying on what grounds the existence of the Senate, a vote took place
small states would adopt these majorities on consolidation lines. In 1884, after an
-looking at the matter purely from the agitation that began in 1882, the National
point of view of the fears of some mem- Assembly sat for the purpose of considering
bers of the larger states, I say that there a proposal made by the Chamber of Deputies
is very little that ought to cause any to take away therightof the Senate to amend
timidity on their part. That is, on what money bills or to interfere with the budget.
in
964
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 Sept., 1897.
There were several other amendments also right hon, member, Mr. Kingston. I do
referred to the National Assembly for con- not wish to repeat arguments which have
sideration, and although the matter had been so very well used by hon. members;
been agitated for two years, and although but I would simply say this, in addition:
the Chamber of Deputies had a very large The proposal of the right hon. member,
proportion of votes in the National Assem- Mr. Kingston, would leave open the pos-
bly, the vote, which was a consolidation sibility of state rights or state interests
vote, was in this way: There were 502 being continually agitated in the parlia-
votes for, and 172 against; so you see ment. It is a provision for deadlocks, and
there the 300 votes of the Senate were not wherever any arose the cure sought by
block votes in the National Assembly, and the right hon. member to be administered
the majority of 502 must have been very would necessitate the raising of state issues.
largely made up of some of the rotes of If we leare matters alone, I believe that
the very senators whose powers, if not
state issues will not arise. I believe that
whose existence, were being aimed at by we hear of them in this Convention, be-
the amendment made in the National As- cause we have to be cautious to make pro-
sembly. There was another question which vision for possibilities, although they may
involved the respective rights in con- be exceedingly remote; but in the actual
stitutional matters of the Chamber of working of the constitution I do not believe
Deputies and the Senate—a rote that was that, perhaps, once in thirty years, if ever,
taken in 1875, shortly after the establish- a real state issue will arise; and, as I have
ment of the Constitution. In that case the said, the provision proposed by the right
vote was 526 to 249, and as the Senate had hon. member, Mr. Kingston, would necessi-
only a total number of 300 members, some tate the precipitation or suggestion of state
of the senators must have gone over to make issues, practically, under all circumstances.
up the majority in favour of the proposal The Right Hon. G. H. REID; It would
which toned down their powers. So I
So I keep the sore open !
think I am justified in taking up the posi-
Mr. GLYNN: Yes, it would keep the
tion that if the amendment proposed by sore open. I do not wish to perpetuate the
the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, is agreed passions, turmoil, and ferment to which,
to, instead of the vole being carried out during the last twenty-four hours, we have
according to the numerical strength of the unfortunately become too much accus-
two houses, it will be a unitarian vote, tomed; therefore I cannot support that
given, with some allowances for class and proposal. The only attempt that has been
state prejudices, on the grounds of com- made to separate state issues from federal
mon-sense, expediency, and fairness. There- issues is in the German Constitution. In
fore, I would support that amendment. the German Constitution there is a pro-
Last night I supported the principle of a
vision that wherever'a matter is not a mat-
dual referendum, which, after a dissolution ter that affects the empire as a whole, but
of the two houses, I think would be the best is one that affects state rights or state in-
expedient we could adopt. But that has not terests, then only those states which are
been accepted, and I am driven back to take affected by the question can vote upon it;
up some position in regard to this vote. but, if I am not mistaken, there is either
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There is the pro- a specification of those matters, or some
posal of the Right Hon. Mr. Kingston ! attempt has been made to indicate what
Mr. GLYNN : I cannot at present see. they are in the lines of the constitution
my way to adopt the amendment of the itself. But under the amendment of the
[Azr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
965
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
right hon. member, Mr. Kingston-and would not give rise to a deadlock by
this is what would be unfair to the larger creating a conflict between the two houses,
states—we should put in the hands of which is the subject with which we are
the smaller states—either half or one-third called upon to deal now. I hope that
of the whole—the power of suggesting a whatever may be the result of the voting
question as a state issue. We know that on this question it will rather arouse the
in these matters it would be very hard to sense that a compromise has been effected
differentiate between what is and what is than that a victory has been gained by
not a state issue, so that the ultimate one side or the other, so that the federal
arbiter would be the passions or prejudices edifice may take its symmetry and its
of the representatives, which, upon the as- beauty from a harmonious blending of
sumption that means are required to pre- what is reasonable in the opinions of all.
vent deadlocks, would be at white heat at The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
the time. I, therefore, cannot support the South Wales) [2:18]: I am not going to
proposal. The right hon. member, Mr. audress the Committee for more than three
Kingston, referred to the question of the minutes, because I feel that anything like
control of the rivers as questions which a long speech at the present time is quite
might raise a state issue; but you will not out of place. I can say with a supreme confi-
raise this state issue in the federal parlia- dence that the proposal that the two houses
ment, because we shall settle in the con- should sit together under a three-fifths
stitution itself the lines upon which the majority is infinitely better than anything
rivers are to be dealt with.
else the Convention is likely to agree upon.
The Hon. S. FRASER : The constitution We all have our opinions upon this sub-
might be amended in accordance with ject, and if we had our own way we should
clause 121 !
provide different solutions of the difficulty.
Mr. GLYNN : The deadlock question At the same time we reserve to ourselves
does not affect that at all; it is altogether the right to reconsider the whole question
separate from it. We shall settle in the in the light of further information ; but I
constitution once and for all the extent to
have no hesitation in saying that I look
which there is to be federal control of the
upon the proposal that the two houses
great arteries of commerce, including the should sit togetherand decide these matters
rivers within the union, and once that by a three-fifths majority as absolutely the
question is settled no question of state best we have before us which has any
rights in regard to it will arise between
chance of success. The right hon. member,
one state and another. I do not think, Mr. Kingston, has naturally great attach-
for instance, that there would be a block ment for his own little bantling. Igenerally
vote against South Australia, simply be- look at the concluding sentences of docu-
cause a system of locking the rivers would ments of this kind first, and the concluding
give us more trade than we might other- sentence of his suggestion is beautiful.
wise get. If that were a state issue, it is
By the above effect will be secured to the
not one which would separate the senate national will in admittedly national questions,
from the house of representatives. It would
while state interests will be fairly guarded.
be a question between some of the states That is beautiful, and is what we all aim
in the senate and other states in the senate, at. But when we look at what the hon.
or between some of the members of the and learned member proposes to carry it
house of representatives and other mem- out the thing falls to pieces. The right hon.
bers of the house of representatives. It member is in the difficulty in which I was
966
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
We
the other day. I said, as he says, let us think over this matter during the ad-
mark the national questions with a national journment; but I think that the course
referendum and the provincial questions of sitting together will bring deadlocks to
with a state right. But if you cannot do an earlier, a less expensive, and a friendlier
that in connection with the subjects dealt determination than anything else. There
with in the bill, how can you possibly do is no doubt, as we know from our experi-
it with any reasonable chance of giving ence of conferences between the two
satisfaction in regard to measures which houses, that if you bring them together
come before the federal parliament? If it even in the bitterest times, the result is
cannot be done in genesis it certainly can- greater friendliness, greater courtesy, and
not be done in detail. I think that that
a greater desire for settlement. That has
is obvious. The bad result would be this: been our local experience, and I confidently
that the war between state and national believe that, if you place men face to face,
interests would be kept up in perpetuity and let them thrash a thing out, the
Every question that came up in the com- effect will probably be to bring the two
monwealth parliament might raise this houses into more amicable relations.
eternal fight between the two interests. all hope that there will very seldom be any
Would not that be the greatest calamity necessity for this. I think that this is the
that could happen to the commonwealth ? best thing we can do upon the whole. I am
An Hon. MEMBER: It would entail it ! absolutely sure," so far as one can be sure of
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: It would anything, that it is the best we can do. If
keep it alive. Whilst we want to make
we can get any light on the matter further
some provision against deadlocks, if this on, we shall all agree to act according to
will enable us to say to the people, "This our convictions. As to money bills, it was
constitution will work well, and we have agreed last night that an appropriation
put into it something, though in a rough- bill and a tariff bill should not be submit-
and-ready fashion, perhaps, which, if there
ted to a vote in detail upon every clause.
is a crisis, will settle it,” we shall have
So the conference would run on the lines
done pretty well. My right hon. friend
of the general provisions of the constitu-
puts these alternatives. He allows one-
tion as to woney bills or bills which are
third of the house of representatives to
not money bills. In the case of money
declare that state interests are involved.
That means that the representatives of
bills, the question to be decided would be
- That the bill do now pass.” In the case
Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia,
and Western Australia will have to agree
of ordinary legislation, I see no reason why,
to make a question a state question; or
if you bring the two houses together, you
half the representatives of half the states
should not give them the opportunity of
in the house of representatives, that is,
going through the whole measure clause
two and a half in Western Australia, two
by clause, and making it as good as they
ando a half in Tasmania, and three and a
could. With regard to money bills, how-
half in South Australia. If you could ever, it will be seen that measures of that
divide people up in that way, that would
kind cannot be amended; but I have no
sum up a total of eight and a half votes objection to general measures being open
to decide whether a question was or was not
to review by the general public.
one involving a state interest. In one of
The CHAIRMAN : If the amendment of
the alternative schemes, one half would
the hon. member, Mr. Howe, is put, the
have to vote solid, and, in the other, eight amendment of the right hon. member, Mr.
and a half votes would do. We will all Kingston, cannot be put.
1
[The Right Hon. G. H, Reid.
Commonwealth of
967
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: To facilitate
NES.
matters, and to end discussion, I beg leave
Berry, Sir G.
Peacock, A. J.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A.
to withdraw.my amendment.
Quick, Dr. J.
Deakin, A.
Turner, Sir G.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Isaacs, I. A.
Wise, B. R.
Mr. WALKER: Under the circumstances, James, W. H.
Teller,
I would ask leave to withdraw my amend-
Kingston, C. C. Holder, F. W.
ment, too.
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member's Amendment (by Hon. J. H. HOWE)
amendment is not before the Committee. again proposed :
Mr. HIGGINS : Do I understand that the That the word “three-fifths " be omitted from
amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
the amendment of Mr. Carruthers, with a view
to inserting the word “ two-thirds” in lieu
Howe, can be put later on }
thereof.
The CHAIRMAN: I understand that the
The CHAIRMAN : The question is:
hon. member, Mr. Howe, has withdrawn
That the word proposed to be left out stand
his amendment for the present to enable part of the question.
the right hon. member, Mr. Kingston, to The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Of
move his amendment.
course, if that amendment is carried, I
Amendment (by The Right Hon. C. C. absolutely withdraw from this proposal
KINGSTON) proposed :
altogether.
That the word “the," at the beginning of The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
Mr. Carruthers' amendinent, be omitted with
desire to ask, for the guidance of myself
a view to inserting the following words :-
a referendum of the people of the common-
and other hon. members, what will be the
wealth in the case of national questions, and to effect if we create a blank, seeing that
a referendum of the people of the commonwealth there are two or three proposals--one to
and a referendum of the people of the states where
insert the word “three-fourths," another
state interests are involved."
to insert "two-thirds,” and another to in-
Mr. SYMON: This will be a test vote
sert a bare majority? Which proposal
this time!
Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear !
will be put from the Chair first?
The CHAIRMAN: The amendment which
Question-That the word “the” pro-
has been first proposed.
posed to be left out (Mr. Carruthers’amend-
ment) stand part of the amendment-put.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus-
The Committee divided :
tralia) (2:31]: As far as I am individually
Ayes, 30; noes, 11; majority, 19.
concerned, I have every faith in the double
dissolution. I believe we have been creating
AYES.
Barton, E.
Henry, J.
a monster in our imaginations that no man
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Higgins, H. B.
who will ever live on the Australian con-
Briggs, H.
Howe, J. H.
tinent will see. It is no wonder, there-
Brown, N. J.
Leake, G.
Brunker, J. N. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
fore, that we cannot devise any human
Clarke, M. J.
Moore, W.
means to get out of the difficulty. We are
Crowder, F. T. O'Connor, R. E.
trying to find a remedy for a disease that
Dobson, H.
Reid, G. H.
will never exist. That is quite sufficient
Douglas, A.
Solomon, V. L.
Downer, Sir J. W. Symon, J. H.
to account for our failure to bring forward
Forrest, Sir J.
Venn, H. W.
some means which will end this difficulty.
Fysh, Sir P. O. Walker, J. T.
However, I should be very sorry to see
Glynn, P. M.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
federation wrecked on that account. That
Gordon, J. H.
Grant, C. H.
is why I voted with the able and learned
Henning, A, H. Carruthers, J. H. Attorney-General of Victoria. I voted with
Teller,
968
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
tim for the dual referendum in Adelaide, The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : May I ask, sir,
and also at this meeting, but I could see if this is the position : the hon. member,
that we were in such a minority that it was Mr. Howe, has moved an amendment to
useless fighting any longer. Consequently, strike out a certain word, and if that is
I am here to compromise matters. What permitted to be withdrawn, the word will
ever my action may be to-day, it is simply have to remain ?
to try to secure a compromise whereby some The CIIAIRMAN : That has not been per-
method will be placed within the fourcorners mitted.
of the constitution of Australia to meet The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The motion is
this difficulty which we have been friglit- that the word shall be struck out, and
ening ourselves so much about. I am now those who are for a greater proportion than
placed in a quandary, because the Right three-fifths, and also those who are in
Hon. the Premier of New South Wales, favour of a less proportion will vote, for
now taking a higher step, intimates that their own respective reasons, for creating
if I carry this amendment, which I con- a blank, some for the purpose of putting
sider is a very fair one, and which will in more than three-fifths, and some for
work out equitably, he will withdraw from the purpose of putting in less.
his position, so that the whole fabric we The CHAIRMAN : If a blank is created, I
have been trying to erect falls to the will put first of all the question to fill the
ground. I do not like to be threatened blank with the word "two-thirds,” be-
or coerced by any man living ; but still I cause that is the first proposal, and then,
put my own feelings on one side in order if that is negatived, I will put the ques-
to bring about true federation.
Conse-
tion to insert the words "a majority.”
quently I withdraw my amendment.
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I do not · Australia) (2:37]: I have not spoken on
want the hon, member to withdraw his this question before. I did speak on the pro-
amendment. I will vote against it! posal to which this is an amendment; but
Mr. HIGGINS: I understand that the
I feel the greatest difficulty in coming to a
hon. member has withdrawn his amend-
conclusion how to vote at the present stage.
ment!
The Hon. S. FRASER :
The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member can-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I look
not withdraw it except with the leave of upon this as being a mere intermediate
the Committee.
condition, having no finality at all, in
Mr. HIGGINS: I understand that the which we may create a terrible mislead-
hon. member proposes to withdraw it with ing, possibly; of public opinion, for it
the leave of the Committee !
might be thought we had come to conclu-
The CHAIRMAN : Is it the pleasure of
sions when we were only expressing some-
the Committee that the Hon. Mr. Howe what crude opinions. On this question, I
have leave to withdraw his amendment?
feel I confess what I do not often feel on
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSI : No !
questions on which I vote—the greatest
Mr. HIGGINS : Then, sir, I have a prior possible doubt. I think the wisest way
amendment to move.
I wish before the would be to leave what has been carried
word “three-fifths" is inserted to insert to stand until the Convention meets again,
the words "a majority.”
and not to saddle the measure with the
The CHAIRMAN : It is too late now. The appearance of our coming to conclusions
hon, member can fill up the blank if one which we really have not come to, which
is created.
are merely suggestions for consideration.
1
$
[The Hon. J. H. Hou:e.
Commonwealth of
969.
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
DOWNER:
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: What The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
does my hon. and learned friend think has not like to enter into that, because I think
been carried ?
there is too great a desire to reiterate their
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We views on the part of a good many hon.
have carried two things.
members.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: That
An Hon. MEMBER : Not the lay mem-
is right!
bers !
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: We The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: No;
have carried the amendment of the hon. but listening to one and another, and
and learned member, Mr. Symon, and the anxious for federation, I find if I get it
alternative of the double dissolution. here I lose it there, and if I get it there it
Some Hon. MEMBERS : No!
is hopeless here. Then we known this is
not the final stage.
Other Hon. MEMBERS : Yes !
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
think in substance we have. We hare The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If it
had a vote on that identical question, and were the last stage, I should be'prepared
it has been carried. I do not say
I do not say I agree
to come to a conclusion and state boldly
to that. My views are pretty strong on
what it is ; but we know that whatever
this question altogether. I do not think we do is to be subject to a long ordeal of
merely as my hon. friend, Mr. Howe, put public criticism, in which there will be an
it, that we are anticipating terrors which
endless number of other suggestions made,
will never happen. I will go much fur- and the fat will be in the fire again.
ther. I will say we are creating the very
All the old business, with the repeti-
mischiefs which we are making machinery tions of the same idea we will have over
to prevent, and which would never arise, if, again, possibly with the addition of fresh
in our studiousness to prevent evil we did suggestions. Under these circumstances,
not suggest, and by our suggestion compel, I have, though with great doubt, resolved
its existence. But at the present stage to vote against any further amendment.
the thing would be carried. I have said I think when we meet next time we shall
before in this discussion that, rather than
be able—we must come to some conclu-
see federation fail, I would take the double sion.
dissolution and the dual referendum, and I Mr. SOLOMON : No. We shall have an
will be found to be true to that view adjournment for the sake of some other
throughout when the time for my decision elections !
comes rather than that the cause should
The Hon. Sir J.W. DOWNER: I think
fail. But observe the difficulties in which
it will be safest at the present stage to
we are placed. On one side we have New
stop where we have gone, to go no further.
South Wales saying, if you do not let us Of course, I have the least difficulty in
have just what we want, good-bye to feder- . doing this, because I disagree with it all.
ation. We have Victoria telling us with
My opinion is so strong that this provision
even more eloquence, and certainly with for deadlocks is unnecessary, that I am
greater fervour
considerably assisted in the stand I am
Mr. Symon: And with greater frequency! taking from that conviction; but yet I
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But not with would not keep to that position, I assure
greater frequency than appears to be neces- my hon. and learned friend, Mr. Reid, if
sary! .,
I thought that the cause of federation was
970 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
trembling in the balance. But it is not make the senate stronger. I do not wish
trembling now. We have not reached to go to a division upon a proposal which
that stage, so I think as at present ad- the hon, member himself wishes to with-
vised, I will stand by the amendments draw. I regret that the Premier of Vic-
which have been carried, and object to any toria should take such a strong stand in
further proposal.
regard to the matter, and we all know that
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South the decisions to be arrived at here are not
Wales) [2-43] : I think the Committee absolutely final. I do not agree with the
might as well be alive to the difficulties hon. member, Sir John Downer, that, be-
which surround this question. It is proposed cause we are going to meet again, we
that the majority shall be "three-fifths”; should not exercise our judgment as regards
and there is a counter-proposition to that, anything which is brought before us now,
that it shall be "two-thirds." Its with- for I think that if we exercise ourjudgment
drawal has been objected to, and now now to the best of our ability, leaving it
we will have to vote on it unless the objec- open to us to alter our opinion before we
tion is withdrawn. The difficulty I wish meet again if we find any good cause to
to point out is this : that if the gentlemen do so, we shall be really assisting federa-
who are in favour of two-thirds vote with tion. Probably when we meet again the
certain of my hon. friends who want to matter will be new, and the differences
destroy this amendment altogether, a blank and discussions will be greater than if we
will be created, and then they will find exercise our best judgment at the present
themselves in a peculiarly difficult posi- time. Personally, I prefer the two-thirds,
tion, because they will have to choose be- but at the same time, I am quite willing
tween the position that the blank be filled that three-fifths should stand for the pre-
by the word "two-thirds,” in which case à sent, in order that we may consider the
large number of supporters of this proposal matter between now and when we meet
as it stands will vote against them; and again. I recognise that hon. members here
if the two-thirds proposition is lost, they are surrounded by great political pressure.
will have to choose between allowing this Of course that is absent altogether in my
matter to be decided by an absolute ma- case. Being far removed from the colony
jority and leaving a complete blank. which I represent, I am more free to speak
Either, then, there will be a complete blank on these matters than, perhaps, I should
or the thing will be decided by an absolute be if I were surrounded by great political
majority. I, therefore, ask hon members
pressure, as are the representatives of New
not to take any such course as will lead South Wales. I thoroughly understand
them into that predicament.
that, and therefore I do not wish to do any-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST thing, and I hope I shall not do anything,
(Western Australia) [2:45]: I would ap- which will make the pressure greater than
peal to my hon. friend, Sir Philip Fysh, to it is. I think the best thing to do is to
allow the hon. member, Mr. Howe, to allow the hon, member to withdraw the
withdraw his amendment. It seems to me amendment. There is not such a terrible
rather hard on that hon, member that he difference between three-fifths and two-
should not be allowed to withdraw it, and if thirds.
it is withdrawn, my hon. friend, Sir Philip The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: One-
Fysh, may propose something in its place. fifteenth !
I, of course, would very much prefer two-. The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
thirds to three-fifths. I think it would It is less than seven in a hundred. At any
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
971 :
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
rate we shall be subscribing a principle drawal. With regard to the question of
which can be altered when we meet again. three-fifths, I desire to say that it will give
I think we had better allow the three-fifths us no finality. If we have two-thirds,
to stand, and we can discuss the matter in three-fourths, or three-fifths, we make no
Melbourne or some other place later on. provision for a case where there is a ma-
The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH (Tasmania) jority, and where we have not two-thirds
[2:47]: It appears to me that we have
or three-fifths. What we want mainly is
come, so far as this session is concerned, finality; and, as we are all making sacri-
at any rate, to the last resort, and that is
fices to obtain it, it might be as well to
the adoption of something like the Nor-
insert the words “a majority." There-
wegian system. Presuming, therefore, fore, if the hon. member, Mr. Howe, has
that what we are doing to-day will be some
leave to withdraw his amendment, I shall
guide as to what may be done hereafter,
move the omission of the word "two-
I wish to register my opinion that 74 out
thirds” with the view to the insertion of
of 112 is not too large a majority to main-
"a majority."
tain. Two-thirds will be 74, and three- The CHAIRMAN : According to the stand-
fifths will be only 66. But in deference ing orders of South Australia, if a proposi-
to the generally-expressed desire to avoid tion has been put from the Chair any single
any thing like delay, I shall withdraw member can object to its withdrawal and
my objection to the hon. member, Mr. insist on taking the sense of the House or
Howe, having leave to withdraw his
the Committee as the case might be upon
amendment.
it. If hon, members object to the with-
The CHAIRMAN : I understand that the
drawal of the proposition of the hon. mem-
hon. member, Mr. Higgins, also objects to
ber, Mr. Howe, it will have to be put. It
does not matter whether it is put by
the withdrawal.
the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, or Mr
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
Howe. The hon. member, Mr. Howe,
(Victoria) [2:49]: As I mentioned before,
can vote against his own proposition if he
I consider that proposal a great blot on
likes.
the bill, and I am desirous of reducing
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: No, I will not
that blot as much as I possibly can. With
do that!
that object in view, if this proposal is car-
ried, I am going to propose that there
The CHAIRMAN: I will put it again :
shall be a simple majority-not a majority
6. That the hon. member, Mr. Howe, have
leave to withdraw his amendment."
of two-thirds, three-fourths, or four-fifths.
Therefore, I certainly shall support the
Mr. HIGGINS: I object !
creating of a blank, with the object of fill-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
ing up the blank with the words,
South Wales) [2.53]: There is no doubt
jority."
that, in connection with this vote, there
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [2:50]: If
will be a combination of hon, members
the standing orders of South Australia with extremely different views, and as a
will allow me—when the hon. member, result of that combination it is likely, un-
Mr. Howe, withdraws his proposal—to less we keep our heads cool, that the whole
move the same proposal again, I will cer- of the proposals will be defeated. The
tainly not stand in the way of his wish. anxiety of the Premier of Victoria is to
But if the standing orders prohibit me destroy the proposal in its entirety. He
from doing it, I must object to the with- says so in so many words.
a ma-
· 972 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bull.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I With that made clear, we might all vote
said I should vote against it at every now in favour of the proposal for the reten-
stage!
tion of three-fifths.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: On
The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)[2:55]:
the other hand, the hon, member, Mr. Howe,
I rise for the purpose of asking the hon.
and those who are working with him, may gentleman who has just resumed his seat
give their assistance to accomplish a purpose
to qualify his remarks, because, although
which is far from their aim. They desire
I shall be found voting for the omission of
to have certain words altered ; they desire
the word “ three-fifths," for the purpose
to have a definite proposal in a modified
of inserting the words “a simple majority,”
form. Supposing they unite their forces
it will be by no means with the object of
with those who are manifest and declared wrecking the hon. gentleman's proposal.
destroyers and wreckers of this proposal. In this I differ from the right hon. gentle-
They create a blank.' Having created a
man, the Premier of Victoria. I, for one,
blank they ask for the insertion of the
am endeavouring to follow the consistent
words "a majority.” Of course, if there is
course of voting for every scheme that is
combination of forces then to prevent that
being proposed for the settlement of dead-
being carried it will be defeated. Then
locks.
the proposal is made for the insertion of
An Hon.MEMBER: As some others have
the word “tw.o-thirds." There is again
a division of forces, and that is defeated,
voted against every scheme !
and thus we shall have the whole of the pro-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Exactly; I
posals wrecked. Although I am in favour vote for every scheme. In the different
of having this proposal carried by a ma- schemes one has preferences. As between
jority, still I have not lost my common- the two referendums I prefer the national
sense and coolness of judgment sufficiently to the dual referendum, but I vote for both;
to vote for any proposal which would defeat
and in this scheme I prefer a simple ma-
the intention of the Convention. I intend, jority to a majority of two-thirds, or any
therefore, to accept the test of the first larger number. But I look upon the real
division—"That the word proposed to be
effective portion of this proposal as not
omitted stand part of the question ”-be- resting on either the referendum or on the
cause, unless we vote solidly for the word joint sitting. If we obtain a simultaneous
to remain, the proposal will be defeated by dissolution, we shall be putting pressure
an unholy alliance.
on both chambers to agree without the
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: Like application of any machinery. We shall
some of the unholy alliances we had last prevent the application of that scheme
night!
itself, and shall, as I endeavoured to ex-
The Hon. J.H.CARRUTHERS: Every plain at some length yesterday, induce both
alliance which aims at nothaving a straight chambers to settle most of their difficulties
vote on a straight issue is, to my mind, an in the ordinary constitutional manner.
unholy one. The Premier of Victoria ex-
When the test issue is put as to the accept-
pressed a desire to destroy the proposal by ance or rejection of Mr. Carruthers' pro-
any means whatever, and he has taken this posal, I shall be found voting for it. It is
means of doing it. Let that be understood. a proposal which has many merits, and, if
It is of no use quibbling about words now. it were necessary, I should be prepared to
There are those who are in favour of the defend it. It has less merit than some of
proposal against the would-be wreckers. the proposals that have been submitted,
+
I
[The Hon. J. H. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
973
but more than most. I am entirely in its to think which side he will be found on,
favour, and assure the hon. member that, when we do divide into liberals and con-
in voting as I do, it is with the object of servatives.
assisting him. I hope to take another The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
opportunity of having a word or two to (South Australia) [3]: The position is a
say to my hon. friend, Dr. Cockburn, whose somewhat difficult one. There is a con-
unhappy misinterpretations of American siderable section of the Convention op-
history are a constant source of provoca- posed to any solution of deadlocks, and
tion, peaceful as I am by disposition. The by combining with those who are opposed
hon. member will persist in trailing the to various particular solutions they can
fragments of his recollection of American
ensure one after the other the defeat of all,
history to tempt me
and prevent effect being given to what is
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : The hon.
undoubtedly the wish of the majority of
member threw paving-stones at me!
the Convention that some solution should
be arrived at. Now, I am not going to be a
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I wish to
party to anything of that sort. I think for
point out to the hon, member—I do not
our own credit, for the sake of federation,
know how many times I have already done
we ought to put the thing before the people
so in these various conventions—that the
in as complete a shape as we possibly can ;
existence of responsible government in this
and under these circumstances I shall be
federal constitution, and in these colonies,
no party to any attempt to mutilate a
alters the political position wholly from
proposal which emanates from any section
the position in the United States of
of the Convention. I have tried to carry
America. Party government, as it exists
my own views in the matter. I have been
in America, does not and will not exist
beaten, and I have been fairly beaten, and
here. Party government as it exists in
I treat the verdict of this Convention with
Great Britain and in these colonies, will
respect. I hope at some other time to in-
exist here. It will be on the lines of liberal
duce the Convention to reverse its decision;
and conservative parties; it cannot be on
but in the interval I am going to do what
the lines of republicans and democrats. An
executive responsible to the people-re-
I can to put before the people of the coun-
try and the adjourned Convention some
sponsible to the parliament and to the popu- practical scheme for meeting this question
lar chamber-will necessarily express and
of deadlocks. Under these circumstances, I
be governed by those currents of popular shall not be found opposing at this stage
feeling which in America are almost power-
the amendment of my hon. friend, Mr. Car-
less to affect the course of events. There
ruthers, and I shall not do anything for the
the people only speak every four years ;
purpose of putting it into an impracticable
they only speak as a whole at the election
of a president
, and then they speak only shape. I shall endeavour honestly to im-
prove it, and I think it will be a substan-
through the party machine. In these colo-
tial improvement to provide that at a joint
nies they will speak freely and often on
sitting a majority of those present should
the well known lines of division between
decide the question. I will vote in that
liberal and conservative.
direction for that simple purpose, and
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: Just as we
without any desire whatever to injure the
see here, for example !
aniendment. If it is carried in that shape,
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Unless the I shall support it. any case I shall sup-
hon. member changes his course, I shudder port its going into the bill for the considera-
In
974
Australia Bilt.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Teller,
tion of the adjourned Convention, and, if it Question-That the word "three-fifths,"
remains as it stands, I shall probably then proposed to be omitted, stand part of Mr.
be found recording a similar vote. I will Carruthers' amendment-put. The Com-
tell hon. members why I am adopting this
mittee divided :
course. This joint sitting is intended for Ayes, 28 ; noes, 13; majority, 15.
the solution of a difficulty between the
AYES.
senate and the house of representatives.
Barton, E.
Howe, J. H.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Leake, G.
If you put it as suggested by my hon.
Briggs, H.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
friend, Mr. Howe, and require a two-thirds Brunker, J. N. McMillan, W.
majority, you cannot possibly solve the diffi- Crowder, F. T. Moore, W.
culty in favour of the senate, because you
Dobson, H.
O'Connor, R. E.
Downer, Sir J. W. Reid, G. H.
can only have thirty-seven, and that would
Forrest, Sir J.
Solomon, V. L.
be a very substantial minority of the house Fraser, S.
Symon, J. H.
of representatives, and you have to get Fysh, Sir P. O. Venn, H. W.
about forty from the senate to make up
Glynn, P. M.
Walker, J, T.
Gordon, J. H.
Zeal, Sir W. A
the requisite number, and you cannot pos- Hackett, J. W.
sibly do that as there are only thirty-six Henning, A. H.
members there.
Henry, J.
Carruthers, J. H.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: What about
NOES.
Berry, Sir G.
Kingston, C. C.
the majority---take the other side ?
Clarke, M. J.
Peacock, A. J.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: If Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Quick, Dr. J.
on the other side you provide that a ma-
Deakin, A.
Trenwith, W. A.
Grant, C. H.
jority should decide, then not only do you
Turner, Sir G
Holder, F. W.
Teller,
give the house of representatives an oppor- Isaacs, I. A.
Higgins, H. B.
tunity, if they can command a majority at Question so resolved in the affirmative,
that joint sitting, of carrying their way, The CHAIRMAN : The question will now
but you make a similar result possible as be-That the amendment of the hon.
regards the senate. And why should you member, Mr. Carruthers, be added to the
not? Put it in the way proposed, decide amendment of the Right Hon. Sir George
the question by a simple majority, and the Turner, as amended on the motion of the
result may be that by a majority of the hon, and learned member, Mr. Wise.
senate and a minority of the house of repre- Question-That the words proposed to
sentatives the view of the senate may be be added be so added-put. The Com-
carried. Put it in any other way, and you mittee divided :
are simply putting into the hands of the
Ayes, 29; noes, 12; majority, 17.
house of representatives a weapon
for over-
AYES.
ruling the wishes of the senate. That I do
Barton, E.
Hove, J. H.
Berry, Sir G.
Kingston, C. C.
not wish to do. Therefore, I shall be found
Briggs, H.
Leake, G.
voting in the way I have indicated. I think Brunker, J. N. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
I have fairly enough defined my position,
Crowder, F. T.
Moore, W.
Deakin, A.
O'Connor, R. E.
and have, at least, said quite sufficient to Forrest, Sir J.
Quick, Dr. J.
assure the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers,
Fraser, S.
Reid, G. H.
and those who have listened to me, that I
Fysh, Sir P. O. Solomon, V. L.
Glynn, P. M.
Symon, J. H.
cannot, under any circumstances whatever, Gordon, J. H.
Venn, H. W.
be classed as a wrecker, or one who desires Grant, C. H.
Walker, J. T.
do anything but what is fair and square
Hackett, J. W. Zeal, Sir W. A.
Henning, A. H.
feller,
in connection with this bill.
Higgins, H, B. Carruthers, J. H.
!
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
975
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
NOES.
out in the amendment of the hon, member,
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Isaacs, I. A.
Mr. Lyne. The amendment would then
Clarke, M. J.
McMillan, W.
read as follows:
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Trenwith, W. A.
Dobson, H.
Turner, Sir G.
Provided that in lieu of dissolving the house
of representatives alone in the first instance,
Downer, Sir J. W.
Teller,
Henry, J.
both houses of parliament may be dissolved
simultaneously, provided that the senate shall
Holder, F. W.
Peacock, A. J.
not be dissolved within a period of six months
Question so resolved in the affirmative. immediately preceding the date of expiry by
effluxion of time of the duration of the house of
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New representatives, and if after such dissolution the
South Wales) [38]: I do not intend to proposed law fails to pass with or without
detain the Committee by speaking upon
amendment, the proposed law may be referred
to the members of the two houses deliberating
the amendment I intend now to move.
and voting together thereon, and shall be
All that I desire is that a vote may be adopted or rejected according to the decision of
taken upon the proposal. I move:
three-fifths of the members present and voting
on the question.
That the following words be added :-"Pro-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
vided that if the proposed law be rejected it
shall be lawful for a majority of those present Australia) [3.17]: I voted for the amend-
and voting to pass a resolution praying the ment proposed by the right hon. member,
governor-general to refer the proposed law to a
Sir George Turner, as amended by the hon.
general vote of the electors of the common-
and learned member, Mr. Wise, and I still
wealth,
should like to do so; but with this further
Mr. SYMON : I rise to order. I do not
addition to it, providing for the joint meet-
think we have yet reached a stage at which
the amendment the hon. member is sub- ing of the two houses, I can no longer
do so; and, therefore, very reluctantly, I
mitting can be moved. The hon. member
shall have to vote against the whole thing.
is indicating the course he has in view in
I should like to say that the hon. member,
the event of the conference not coming to
Mr. Carruthers, much as he protests against
a conclusion in regard to the proposed law.
unholy alliances, without his knowledge,
But it has not yet been decided whether
had the benefit of an unholy alliance, and
this proviso is or is not to be inserted.
the last vote has been the means of defeat-
Would it not be very much better that my ing the proposition of the right hon. mem-
hon. friend should deal with the proviso ber, Sir George Turner, and I hope also his
which embodies this amendment of the
hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise, and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
nis own ?
(Victoria) (3:18]: We certainly are in a
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : I see
difficulty over this matter, and I am in the
reason in the hon. member's argument, and position of having to choose between two
I will not persist with this amendment evils. One evil is the proposal of my hon.
until the Committee has decided whether
and learned friend, Mr. Symon, that we
the proviso shall or shall not stand.
should have a dissolution of the house of
The CHAIRMAN : The question before representatives followed by a dissolution
the Committee is, that the amendment of the senate. The other evil is the joint
proposed by the Right Hon. Sir George meeting of the two houses after a joint
Turner, as amended by the hon. and dissolution. So between the two there
learned member, Mr. Wise, and as added comes a joint dissolution. If I vote to
to by the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, prevent the proposal of the hon. member,
be inserted in lieu of the word “if,” struck Mr. Carruthers, from being added, the
own.
976
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
result will that I shall assist the lon, and four or five days, I intend, with very great
learned member, Mr. Symon, in another reluctance indeed, and somewhat against
evi).
my own feelings in the matter—and be-
The Hon. A. J. PEACOCK : That is what lieving that I am doing an injury to
it has been done for !
federation, but not as great an injury as
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: There- I would do if I: supported my hon. and
fore, the right hon. gentleman will have learned friend, and seeing that this pro-
to go straight!
posal is only tentative, on this occasion I
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : He has always propose to vote with my hon. friend, Mr.
done so !
Carruthers.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [3:19] :
There is a clever loophole in connection I am indebted to my right hon. friend, Sir
with this, because the meeting of the two George Turner, for putting the position so
houses is not made compulsory. As the plainly. What we are doing now and I
proposal stands, it is only that the proposed hope that hon. members will clearly under-
law may be referred; and that will rest, I stand it—is this: If we carry this proviso
have no doubt, with the government of we are affirming the principle of an alter-
the day. There is no one else who could native simultaneous dissolution of both
take the necessary steps to refer it. The houses, and, therefore, as I am entirely
amendment does not say so in express
against that course in the event of a dis-
terms, but the proposal, as I followed it pute between the two
pute between the two houses, I intend to
when the Chairman read it, is simply that, vote against this proviso.
after a double dissolution, the question The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
may be referred to a meeting of the two (Western Australia) [3:20]: I should like
houses; therefore, the government of the to ask my hon. and learned friend, Mr.
day would take very good care that they Symon, whether in voting against this pro-
did not refer it unless they were certain posal we vote, as I suppose we shall against
beforehand that they had got the num-
the whole of the clause the amendment
bers. Although I look upon this as a of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, and
great blot on the bill, I think that the everything else.
fact that the referring the question will
An Hon. MEMBER : Of course you do!
be in the option of the government, takes The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
to a very great extent the sting out of the All that we have been fighting for the last
proposal; and seeing that I have to choose
hour or twogoes by the board. While I am
the less of two evils, I am prepared, with- very anxious to vote against the proviso,
out binding myself as to what I will do and also against the amendment proposed
hereafter, either at the adjourned Conven- by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
tion, or when before the people explaining Wise, I should have been very glad to be
the bill, I am prepared to accept for the able to vote with the hon, member, Mr.
time-being what I consider the less of the
Carruthers, provided that there should be
two evils, and rather than help my hon: a successive dissolution beforehand, or even
and learned friend, Mr. Symon
a dissolution of one house : but it seems to
Mr. Synon: I am sorry to hear that! me that we have got into a difficulty,
The Right Hon. Sir G.: TURNER: therefore, I am bound to follow the hon.
Rather than help my hon; and learned and learned member, Mr. Symon, and vote
friend, Mr. Symon, to get back into a against the whole of the clause we have
position we have been fighting against been trying to pass. I warned my hon.
[The Right Hon. Sir G. Turner.
Commonwealth of
977
21 SEPT., 1897..
Australia Bill. .
+
friend that if his amendment were to be The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South Aus-
tacked on to the proposal of the right hon. tralia) [3:24] : I have been watching a
member, Sir George Turner, this would be nice little scheme being worked out, and
the result. I was assured that it would not now we see the end of it; but I do not
--that means would be found of separating intend to be entrapped. Ever since we
that amendment from the proviso proposed passedạn amendment yesterdayin the direc-
by the right hon. member, Sir George tion of a simultaneous dissolution, there
Turner; but it seems to me that it is not has been an effort so to overload that with
possible to do that, and I am, therefore, anything and everything as to make it
very reluctantly compelled to vote against break down of its own weight; and, if we
the whole of the clause.
do not.take care, hon. members who desire
An Hon. MEMBER : The proviso ? that will probably succeed now. This is
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: a complicated question, and I ask you, sir,
No; the Chairman is going to put the is it not possible under the standing orders
whole clause, I believe.
for you to divide a complicated question
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out to and to put the different issues separately?
the right hon. gentleman that the question The CHAIRMAN : Hon. members must
is to insert the words I have just read in recollect that the Committee has affirmed
lieu of the word "if" in the amendment
every one of these propositions, having
of the hon. member, Mr. Lyne.
affirmed them in the form of additions to
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: the amendment. If hon. members had
That is all the words including the proviso moved them in different forms, and had
of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers. I allowed one proposal to be carried adding
should like my hon. and learned friend, Mr. something to the clause before they moved
Symon, to address himself to this point. another, it would have been simpler; but
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [3.23]: it is not for the Chairman to dictate how
In answer to my right hon, friend, the amendments shall be moved.
position seems to me to be perfectly clear. The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
We have now got the proviso before us Wales) [3.26]: It seems to me to be
completed by the two amendments which eminently desirable that we should have
have been moved. It was moved origin- an opportunity of dealing with these pro-
ally as a proviso by the right hon. member, posals seriatim in the fresh light of the
Sir George Turner; on that the hon, and recent vote. I think it is only fair that
learned member, Mr. Wise, moved an the Committee should have an opportunity
amendment, and on that the hon, member, to say whether it will have the consecutive
Mr. Carruthers, has moved and carried an Clissolution with the alternative of the
amendment. Now the whole proviso, as double dissolution, and the proposal of the
Sir Richard Baker has intimated, is to be hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, in addition,
put, and that proviso embodies the prin- or whether it will bave only one of these
ciple of an alternative simultaneous disso- dissolutions, adding the proposal of the hon.
lution of the two houses. Those in favour member, Mr. Carruthers, to it. Unfor-
of that will, of course, support the proviso. tunately, the standing orders are in the
For my part, I shall oppose it; but the way of this being done; but there is a way
position will be that, if the proviso is re- out of the difficulty, and that is by moving
jected, the whole of it, with the two amend- the Chairman out of the chair to obtain the
ments, will — unfortunately as to one of suspension of the standing orders. I think
them--fall through.
that rather than have a continuance of
3 Y
978 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
We
this complication, a body like this should The CHAIRMAN: We now have to deal
suspend the standing orders in order to get with the remainder of the amendment pro-
matters straight.
posed by the bon. member, Mr. Lyne,
An Hon. MEMBER: I shall object ! which is inconsistent with the previous
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Be- decision of the Committee, and, therefore,
fore my hon. friend does that, I would I propose to strike it out as consequen-
point out that we may lose the great step tial. The question is that the amendment
which we have already made the double which now takes the place of Mr. Lyne's
dissolution,
amendment, be inserted after the word
The CHAIRMAN : May I make a sugges-
" senate" (line 18, page 932).
tion. We are only now seeking to insert The Hon. E. BARTON: There are the
words in lieu of the word "if" in Mr.
remaining words of the original amend-
Lyne's amendment. If these words are
ment suggested by the Assembly of New
inserted it will be competent for the leader South Wales to be dealt with !
of the Convention to take advantage of
The CHAIRMAN: We will come to that
the suspension of the standing orders to
by-and-by.
rescind the amendment of the hon. mem-
Mr. SYMON : What are the words pro-
ber, Mr. Symoon.
The Hon. E. BARTON : Quite so.
posed to be inserted ?
will deal with this matter as we ought to
The CHAIRMAN : It is proposed to in-
deal with it. If we find that the proposal
sert the following words after the word,
consists of three branches, of which we
"senate" (Mr. Symon's amendment, line
desire only two, leaving out either the
18, page 932):
consecutive or the double dissolution, I
Provided that in lieu of dissolving the house
of representatives alone in the first instance both
shall move the Chairman out of the chair
houses of parliament may be dissolved simul.
in order to put things straight.
taneously: Provided that the senate shall not.
Mr. TRENWITH : I should like to point be dissolved within a period of six months im-
out to the hon. member, Dr. Cockburn,
mediately preceding the date of the expiry by
effluxion of time of the duration of the house of
and others who regret that the proposal representatives
. And if after such dissolution :
of the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, has the proposed law fails to pass with or without
been added, that it will be better to amendment the proposed law may be referred to
accept it than to assist those who are
the members of the two houses deliberating and
voting together thereon, and shall be adopted or
opposed to any solution of the deadlock.
rejected according to the decision of three-fifths
The right hon. member, Sir John Forrest, of the members present, and voting on the
has intimated his intention of voting question.
against the clause, because there are some The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I understand
provisions in it to which he objects. Hon. that the proposal now is the insertion of
members will remember that he voted the complicated angendients proposed by.
against making any provision for the solu- the right hon. member, Sir George Turner,
tion of deadlocks; therefore, if we play the hon, and learned member, Mr. Wise,
into his hands by voting against the clause and the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers.
we shall assist him in stultifying the Com- What does the hon. and learned member,
mittee.
Mr. Barton, now propose to do? I want
Question—That the words proposed to to give a vote in accordance with my views,
be inserted in place of the word “if” in and I think that the Convention ought to
Mr. Lyne's amendment be so inserted— be able to devise means for carrying out
resolved in the affirmative.
the wishes of its members.
t
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
979
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON : What I propose
that this is all a tentative arrangement,
is, that, after this matter is dealt with, and will be reconsidered and recast here-
an opportunity shall be given to hon. mem- after, I am not going to call for a division,
bers to take such a course as will relieve although I shall assert my view when the
them of one of the two proposals which voices are given upon the insertion of these
precede this——that is to say, to enable them words.
to rescind either the amendment of the The Hon. E. BARTON: The Committee
hon. member, Mr. Symon, or the amend- has already obtained leave to rescind any
ment of the hon. and learned member, Mr. amendment that has been carried.
Wise, so that the taking of a joint vote of The CHAIRMAN : No; only one amend-
the two houses, in the event of a deadlock,
ment.
will be something which follows upon
The Hon. E. BARTON : That, I think, is
either a concurrent dissolution or a joint the amendment of the hon. member, Mr.
dissolution, as hon. members choose, but Symon. Consequently the Committee,
so that there shall not be the alternative of without suspending the standing orders,
both.
can rescind any portion of that amendment.
An Hon. MEMBER : Why not?
We cannot do any more than that without
The Hon. E. BARTON : I intend to give suspending the standing orders.
hon. members an opportunity to vote as
Mr. SYMON: That does not meet the
they wish to vote, and, without expressing hon. member Dr. Cockburn's difficulty.
any opinion of my own, I will take such a The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon. mem-
course as will enable them to do so! ber Dr. Cockburn's difficulty is that while-
Mr. SYMON : That is not the point of he may be in favour of one or the other
the hon. and learned member, Dr. Cock- he is not in favour of this.
burn. His point is this : It is not a ques-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I am not in
tion of attaching the amendment of the favour of the three things.
hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, to a con- The Hon. E. BARTON : I think he voted
secutive dissolution, or to a simultaneous against the proposal of the hon. member,
dissolution, it is a question of attaching Mr. Carruthers.
his amendment to anything at all. The An Hon. MEMBER: Yes.
objection of the hon. and learned member The Hon. E. BARTON : Well, the in-
is not to a consecutive or to a simultane- structions to the Committee that leave be
ous dissolution, but to the amendment of given to reconsider and rescind do not;
the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers.
apply to the hon. member Mr. Carruthers'
An HON, MEMBER : That is carried ! proposal, but they do to the amendment
Mr. SYMON : Yes. It would be a use- of the hon. member, Mr. Symon. There-
less waste of time to open the whole thing fore, unless we move the Chairman out of
again in that fashion. We might be here
We might be here chair, and get further instructions, we can
for another month. I have not called for a only rescind the hon. member Mr. Symon's
division, and it is not proposed to call for amendment.
a division on the question of the proviso. The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I think we
I have stated my objection to it; but, had better do that; it is too serious a mat-
although it is alternative, still, in the view ter for any vote to be recorded which is not
of the majority of hon. members, it is not in accordance with the views of hon. mem-
an undesirable thing that we should have bers. I think that somehow or other we
it put, as the Right Hon. Sir George Turner should devise means to give effect to our
has proposed as an alternative. Seeing wishes. However, I do not wish to stand
980
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
out in this matter. I only wish to say The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
that I thoroughly disapprove of the ad- South Wales) [3.44]: I beg to move the
dition proposed by the hon. member, Mr. addition of the following proviso, and I
Carruthers.
only desire to have a division of the Com-
The CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. mem- mittee upon it:
ber ought not to argue that question now. Provided that if the proposed law be rejected
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I only want
it shall be lawful for the majority of those pre-
to say that I supported the hon. member,
sent and voting to pass a resolution praying the
governor-general to refer the proposed law to a
Mr. Symon, in his proposal for a successive
general vote of the electors of the common-
dissolution. I also supported the hon. wealth, and upon such resolution being presented
member Mr. Wise's proposal that there
to the governor-general he may direct that such
should be an alternative of a simultaneous
general vote of the electors be taken.
dissolution, so long as it is not exercised
If that be carried I shall subsequently move
so as to always penalise the senate and that the minority shall also have the right
never penalise the house of representatives.
to claim a general referendum to veto the
I want to vote for these two things ; but
proposed law.
I am put in such a position that I have no
Mr. SOLOMON : What generosity !
opportunity of doing so. I should like to Question–That the words proposed to
have such an opportunity. But, as it is be added le so added-put. The Com-
understood that all our work now is simply mittee divided :
preparatory and tentative, altlıough I ob- Ayes, 13; noes, 27; majority, 11.
ject to anything I do not approve of getting
AYES.
a prescriptive right of existence, still I Berry, Sir G.
Peacock, A. J.
suppose there is now no alternative. Brunker, J. N. Quick, Dr. J.
Question—That the words proposed to
Deakin, A.
Reid, G. H.
Higgins, H. B. Trenwithi, W. A.
be inserted in paragraph A, after the word
Holder, F. W.
Turner, Sir G.
“senate," be so inserted-put. The Com- Isaacs, I. A.
Teller,
mittee divided :
O'Connor, R. E. Carruthers, J. H.
Ayes, 23 ; noes, 13; majority, 10.
Noes.
AYES.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Henning, A. H.
Barton, E.
Howe, J. H.
Briggs, H.
Howe, J. H.
Berry, Sir G.
Kingston, C. C.
Clarke, M. J.
Kingston, C. C.
Brunker, J. N.
O'Connor, R. E.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Leake, G.
Carrutliers, J. H. Peacock, A. J.
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Cockburn. Dr. J. A. Quick, Dr. J.
Dobson, H.
McMillan, W.
Deakin, A.
Reid, G. H.
Downer, Sir J. W. Moore, W.
Fysh, Sir P. O. Solomon, V. L.
Forrest, Sir J.
Solomon, V. L.
Glynn, P. M.
Trenwith, W. A.
Fraser, S.
Symon, J. H.
Gordon, J. H.
Turner, Sir G.
Fysh, Sir P. O.
Venn, H. W.
Hackett, J. W. Walker, J. T.
Glynn, P. M.
Walker, J. T.
Higgins, H. B.
Teller,
Gordon, J. H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
Holder, F. W.
Isaacs, I. A.
Grant, C. H.
T'eller,
Hackett, J. W.
Noes.
Barton, E.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Leake, G.
Question so resolved in the negative.
Briggs, H.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I move :
Clarke, M. J.
McMillan, W.
That the remaining words of the proposed
Crowder, F. T.
Moore, W.
new clause 574 be struck out.
Dobson, H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
Forrest, Sir J.
Teller,
Amendment agreed to.
Grant, C. H.
Downer, Sir J. W.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Question so resolved in the affirmative. Wales) [3.49]: Now the question arises as
The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
981
121 SEPT., 1897.]
1
Australia Bill.
•
to the procedure of the Committee in deal- Sir George Turner, and others, that, al-
ing with the proposals which are antece. though we appointed a select committee to
dent to the one just adopted. I understand deal with finance, it nevertheless was
that it is the wish of a number of hon. thought desirable that we should have a
members to have an opportunity to recon- discussion on it, and that discussion took
sider those portions in the light of the de- two or three days, and the object of it was
cision they have come to with reference to not only to evolve the views of hon. mem-
a joint vote of the houses.
bers but to let that evolucion sink into the
Hon. MEMBERS : Let it go!
minds and hearts of the members of the
An HON. MEMBER: We will consider it Finance Committee, who were then, of
in Melbourne !
course, expected diligently to turn over all
The Hon. E. BARTON: Let it be un- that had been said to them, and embody
derstood that I am only endeavouring to all these proposals in some clause. Un-
arrive at the general sense of this body. I fortunately, the arduous nature of the
am perfectly willing to let things stand as duties of the Convention in which the
they are, at any rate, until our next meet- members of the Finance Committee bave
ing, which I hope will be in January. As participated has prevented them from hold-
the mouthpiece of hon. members, I should ing as many meetings as would have been
feel myself bound, if I saw that there was desirable; and inasmuch as these gentle-
a general desire to reconsider these mat- men have not found it possible to hold so
ters at the present stage, to take the neces- many meetings as would enable them to
sary steps to bring that into order.
put propositions before us
Mr. McMILLAN : Unless you have The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I am told that
another scheme !
they held two meetings !
The Hon. E. BARTON: As I do not The Hon. E. BARTON: We now come
find that the desire expressed is a general back, to a certain extent, to our own re-
one, I am only too happy to be relieved of sources. I feel very much inclined to move
that duty.
that the whole of Chapter III which relates
New clause, as amended, agreed to. to the judicature be postponed in order
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South that we may reach the chapter on finance
Wales) [3.53]: I would like to point out and trade, because I take it that the Con-
to hon. members that time is becoming vention itself, in debating this matter for
very precious just now, and that our right three days in the beginning, and the in-
hon. friend, Sir George Turner, may have tense desire expressed by hon. members
to go away to-night. With regard to a that this, as one of the most important
question like the judicature, on which we inatters before us, should be dealt with as
are pretty well agreed except as to a differ- speedily as possible, ought to find now its
ence of opinion as to the degree of restric- consequence in some such step as I have
tion on the right of appeal, I scarcely suggested. As a member of the Drafting
think that in the limited time now left we Committee I have brought before my col-
need take much trouble. I would like to leagues the necessity of endeavouring to
ascertain the opinion of hon. members formulate, in some way, the opinions wbich
· whether it would not be a more desirable were expressed with a great deal of warmth
· thing to take some discussion on the very and emphasis during the debate on finance.
important question of finance and trade. Hon. members will find in their hands a
We know that this matter was considered series of proposals as to which I wish only
*so important by the right hon. member, to say this : that they are not to be taken
982
Australia Bili.
Commonu:ealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
they are only marked "suggested amend members some time before the Convention
ments ”—as the evidence of any desire actually reassembled. That is our desire.
on the part of the Drafting Committee to I would ask, however, whether my right
set themselves up as authorities on finance. hon. friend is going to Melbourne to-night?
I am afraid if I were to do that in my own Is there any indefiniteness about it?
person I should speedily cover myself with The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: None!
ridicule ; but these matters which hon. The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Then I
members will find in print are simply an would suggest to the hon. member, Mr.
endeavour of the Drafting Committee to Barton, whether it would not add to a
put into the form of legal phraseology sense of incompleteness if we, with an hour
what seems to be the subject of very com- to spare, began this subject. No possible
mon expression of opinion amongst hon. good could be derived from it. One speech
members; and we thought we might just only could be heard. We should, indeed,
as well put them into print, in order that leave a sense of incompleteness if we at-
hon. members might see what they looked tempted to deal with a subject of this kind
like as clauses of the bill. That has been within an hour of the adjournment of the
the sole object of the Drafting Committee, Convention. I would suggest that it would
and I hope they will be absolved com- be much better to leave the matter in the
pletely from any desire to set themselves hands of the committee. Of course we
up as financial authorities. Having said should all be very glad if we could get on
that, I suggest that the consideration of to some extent with the matter, but until
Chapter III be postponed.
the committee report on the clauses in the
The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New bill it is perfectly clear that a general dis-
South Wales) [3.56]: I think it is very
cussion will be more or less idle. We have
well known to the Convention that the had a general discussion, and the commit
Finance Committee was appointed to take tee have had the benefit of it, and no doubt
these matters into consideration. We met it will work on the lines suggested by that
to consider what was best to be done, and discussion, but any further general discus-
we found it impossible to take up this very sion within an hour of separation would, I
difficult matter in any systematic fashion submit, be futile. I suggest that we should
whilst these sittings have been held. It not attempt to begin again until we have
was impossible for us to be in the Finance some opportunity of beginning and finish-
Committee and in this Chamber at the ing.
same time. We gave up the attempt, and The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
we came to the conclusion that the follow- Wales) (3:59]: I quite appreciate the sug-
ing plan of operations would probably gestion which has been made; but I do
lead to the best result :- that the two not want to rush the Committee into the
members representing each colony should consideration of anything which it will not
give the matter, at the adjournment of the have time to finish. I must express a little
Convention, their best consideration jointly; difference of opinion from that expressed
that each set of two should exchange views by the Premier of New South Wales as to
with the other members of the committee ; our being within an hour of the adjourn-
and that we should then meet in Mel- ment of the sittings of the Convention,
bourne, or at some convenient spot, before because I see no reason why the Conven-
the Convention reassembled, and hit upon tion should not go on with its work. The
a scheme, in the light of all our sugges- Premier of Victoria is leaving ; but I am
tions, which would be in the hands of hon. quite sure he has confidence in his col-
[The Ton. E. Bartos.
Commonwealth of
983
[21 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
leagues whom he leaves behind, and that ask hon. members to meet on Friday after-
it would be an almost unheard-of thing if noon for an hour--it would only be a
we were to say that, because one of our matter of an hour to deal with more for-
most respected delegates, and one of those malities, after which the Convention would
whose opinions we most esteem, goes away, be adjourned to such place as it will sit
we should on that account suspend work. in, I hope, in January.
I am sure all the admiration I feel for the The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
Premier of Victoria would not justify me What about the alternative clauses?
in taking that course, and I do not think The Hon. E. BARTON: We shall
he would expect it. I am going to ask the simply put them in the best drafting
Convention to sit until tomorrow evening phraseology we can, and treat them as the
to deal with so many matters in the bill decision of the Convention so far. I hope
as are now left unsettled. When I made hon. members will follow me in the sug-
a suggestion just now with regard to the gestion I have made. Under these cir-
question of finance, I did not mean for an cumstances, I do not propose to go on
instant that I was even going to propose
with the discussion on finance. The clauses
those clauses which have been committed which have been referred to have been
to print. They are not my clauses ; they circulated and that, I think, is enough for
are only a matter of drafting ; but I am present purposes.
quite willing to accede to the suggestion, The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: When shall
if it is the wish of the Convention, to go we decide when we shall meet again?
on with business other than finance. I The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not see
hope hon. members will support me in why we should not decide that to-morrow
sitting to-morrow.
afternoon.
An Hon. MEMBER : And to-night?
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : Or before the
The Hon. E. BARTON: And to-night. Premier of Victoria goes away!
I will ask hon. members to get as far as
The Hon. E. BARTON: Hon. mem-
they possibly can to solve the financial bers will see that that is not a question we
question in the time at our disposal. I can decide in Committee. I see no objec-
think an attempt to complete it, as has tion, however, to the House resuming now
been rightly put by the Premier of New and discussing that question, and then we
South Wales, would not be creditable to can adjourn until the evening sitting.
the Convention. I think, however, there Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [4.4]:
is ground, which we have already travelled I would suggest that there is a consider-
over, which we can deal with between now able portion of Part II, relating to the
and to-morrow evening, and I suggest to senate, which we might complete. It is
hon. members that they follow me in awkward to have these disjointed por-
taking that course. Then we could ad- tions of the bill dealt with. We might
journ from to-morrow evening until Friday deal with that and also with the provisions
afternoon. In the meantime, the Drafting applicable to both houses and the powers
Committee, with the help of any legal of the parliament. I particularly refer to
members who would kindly assist them,
the powers of the parliament, because I
would take in hand the numerous amend-
understand that some of my colleagues, as
ments which have been made during the we all do, take strong views on one or two
present sittings of the Convention, so as
points which have been elucidated during
to put them in their proper order, and in
the present session, although not finally
legal phraseology in the bill. Then I would concluded. It would be well if we could
984
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897]
have the assistance of our friends from way of any other colony having the honor,
Victoria, certainly on one of those mat- as I did not stand in the way of New
ters—for example, that relating to the South Wales having the honor on this
navigability of the river Murray.
occasion, of course, if it is the general de-
The CHAIRMAN : The Committee have sire, I would not attempt to oppose the
already postponed those clauses until after wish of the Convention. In regard to
the consideration of the other clauses. We meeting in January, I think that would be
cannot go back; we must go forward. Do a very bad time. If we are to meet in
I understand the leader of the Convention Melbourne, I think we should meet in
to move that Part III be postponed ? March.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. E. BARTON : I should have
Wales) [4.5]: That has not been done
very great difficulty in attending !
yet. I propose to report progress in The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
order that the matter of the adjourned Most of us will be busy in our parliaments
meeting be dealt with before the Pre- until the latter end of December; besides,
mier of Victoria leaves. I think the best in January we shall have very trying
plan would be to move that the Chair- weather.
man leave the chair, and ask leave to sit The Hon. E. BARTON: Not as bad as
again at a later period of the day. I February !
understand--and my right hon. friend, The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
Sir (George Turner, will correct me if I That would prevent us from getting on
am wrong—that it would be a desirable
with our work as rapidly as we might de-
thing, with reference to the exigencies of sire ; and, if the meeting were postponed
the various governments, that there should until March, I think it would be found
be some quiet conversation between the advantageous.
advantageous. However, if that would
various Premiers before we decide the
not be convenient to my hon. and learned
question as to where and when we are to friend, I should be prepared to agree that
sit. I take it that my right hon. friend, the Convention should meet some time
Sir George Turner, before he goes, would towards the latter end of January.
like to exchange views with the other The Hon. E. BARTON: It would be
Premiers who are present. If that is so, far better to fix a time concurrent with
I would move that the Chairman leave
most of the parliamentary vacations-say,
the chair for a quarter of an hour, and about the middle of January.
then the House can resume, and we can The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I
deal with the question.
will not stand in the way of the hon. and
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER
learned member's suggestion if it is deemed
(Victoria) [4:6]: I do not know that there
most convenient!
is any necessity for the course the hon.
The Hon. E. BARTON: After what
member has suggested. Unless my right the Right Hon. Sir George Turner has
hon. friends desire it, I do not desire it. said, I do not think it is necessary to have
There seems to be a general wish among any suspension of the sitting to give the
members that the next meeting of the
various Premiers an opportunity of discus-
Convention should be held in Melbourne.
sion, and I shall simply move :
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Hear,
That the Chairman leave the chair, report
hear!
progress, and ask leave to sit again at a later
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : hour of the day.
And, although I would not stand in the Motion agreed to; progress reported.
[Mr. Symon.
Next Meeting of
985
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
the Convention.
NEXT MEETING OF THE CONVENTION.
Friday, or else the consequences will not
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South be very pleasant. If there happens not to
Wales) [4:9] : What does my right hon. be a quorum, the Convention must stand
friend say to meeting on the 18th January? adjourned from day to day..
That will be Tuesday. It will enable the An Hon. MEMBER: If we pass this
delegates from New South Wales and motion ?
from South Australia to leave on the Mon- The Hon. E. BARTON: The question
day, if necessary, so that they will save a would even then arise under the standing
day.
orders whether the Convention would not
Mr. WALKER : We must remember that have to be adjourned from day to day; so
we expect the colony of Queensland to be
that I impress upon hon, members that if
represented, and that the Premier of that I place Friday in the present motion, it
colony will not be back until the 4th must be on the understanding that we
October, and it may take some time to get form a quorum on that day. A meeting
the necessary bill through parliament. on Friday will, I assure hon. members, be
The Hon. E. BARTON: It will not necessary, because nobody wishes to see
take four months.
the bill left with amendments which have
Mr. SYMON : In South Australia it took been put in more homely phraseology than
four hours !
is appropriate in a statute. Therefore, the
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is a ques- Drafting Committee will require to have a
tion between the 18th and the 25th Janu- spare day, say, Thursday, to bring matters
ary, and I think the 18th would be the into ordinary form, and then we shall ask
better date.
the Convention to pass the bill through
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: I do Committee in the ordinary way. I pro-
not object if that is the wish of the pose that the Convention should sit to-
majority ; but, personally, I should prefer morrow, but not on Thursday. I beg to
some time in March.
move the motion, in its amended form, as
Motion (by the Hon. E. BARTON) agreed follows :-
That this Convention, at its rising on Friday
That the standing orders be suspended to
next, stand adjourned until 12 o'clock, noon, on
enable a motion to be made without notice. Thursday, the 20th January, and that the sit-
The Hon. E. BARTON: It has been
tings of the Convention be then held in Parlia-
ment House, Melbourne.
.suggested that as there will have to be a
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
short sitting on Friday, the motion had
(Western Australia) [4:15]: I cannot help
better be made in this form :
thinking that the leader of the Convention
That this Convention, at its rising on Friday
is proposing that we should meet at rather
next, stand adjourned until 12 o'clock, noon, on
Tuesday, the 18th January, and that the Con-
too early a date. It may be a very conve-
'vention do then meet in Parliament House,
nient date for gentlemen of the legal profes-
Melbourne.
sion, who will then be in their ordinary long
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : vacation; but, for my own part, it would be
The delegates from Western Australia most inconvenient for me to return to the
cannot get there conveniently on the work of this Convention at so early a date.
Tuesday !
I have been away from Western Australia
The Hon. E. BARTON: Well, say nearly the whole of the year, and Christ-
Thursday, the 20th January. Before the mas will be the very earliest date at which
motion is put, I must point out that there our local Parliament can be expected to
must necessarily be a quorum here on conclude its work. If this resolution is
to :
986
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
year !
adhered to, we shall have to leave the colony procedure, now that we have settled the
immediately after Parliament has concluded matter of our next meeting, will be to
its labours and pass a month or six weeks take the bill in its regular order, and, as
in Melbourne. I should much prefer to a matter of technical procedure, to enable
see a date fixed one month later.
that to be done it will be necessary to
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : The postpone the remaining clauses. That
right hon. gentleman will be in better will bring us, I think, to clause 5, and
training in January !
from that point we can go straight on with
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: the remaining clauses of the bill. I there-
fore move :
It is all very well for those who are in
Melbourne or in Tasmania ; but we have
That the remaining clauses of the bill and the
schedule be postponed.
to come a long way. It takes us a week
Motion agreed to.
to get here, and while we are here we are
altogether away from our work.
Clause 5. The term “the states" shall be
taken to mean such of the colonies of New
The Hon. E. BARTON : January is holi-
South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tas-
day time generally, is it not?
mania, Victoria, and Western Australia, and
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: the province of South Australia, as for the 5
I do not think so.
time-being form part of the commonwealth,
and such colonies or states as may here-
The Hon. E. BARTON: It is more holi-
after be admitted into or established by the
day time than is any other month in the commonwealth, and each of such parts of
the commonwealth shall be hereafter desig- 10
nated a "state."
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
As I have pointed out, as soon as our Par-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
of New South Wales :
liament is over we shall have to come to
Add at the end of clause "Original states shall
Melbourne to this Convention. However, be taken to mean such states as form part of the
I shall not move any amendment to the pro- dominion at the date of its establishment. New
states shall be taken to mean such states as may
posal; but if the date were fixed a month
thereafter be admitted into or constituted by the
later it would be more convenient to many
dominion."
Mr. SOLOMON (South Australia)
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus-
[4:23]: To avoid the possibility of any
tralia) [4.17]: I should like to have a
question arising with reference to the
word to say with regard to the position of
boundary of the province of South Aus-
the Western Australian delegates. I
tralia—that is, whether it would include,
should like to be clear as to whether, if we
in the ordinary acceptation of the term,
assemble again on the 20th January, that
the Northern Territory which is provision-
date will be an obstacle to the Western
ally annexed to it-I move :
Australian delegates coming to Melbourne.
That there be inserted after the word “ Aus-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: tralia,"line 5, the words includ ng the Northern
I do not think that will be so; we shall Territory of South Australia."
have to try and be there.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is that part now
Question resolved in the affirmative. technically South Australian territory ?
Mr. SOLOMON : That is rather a diffi-
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
cult question to answer.
Under letters
In Connittee :
patent under her Majesty's hand the Ter-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South ritory is provisionally annexed to South
Wales) [4.20]: I think our best course of Australia from the 26th parallel of south
of us.
!
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
987
[21 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
latitude northward during the pleasure of Amendment suggested by Legislative Assembly
her Majesty. A question in future might of Victoria :
After prescribing"insert “the times, places,
arise whether electors in that portion of
and "
the province had a right to a voice in the
The CHAIRMAN : The first amendment
affairs of the commonwealth-that is to
suggested in paragraph 1 is by Tasmania
say, whether that portion which is pro-
-to omit the words “the parliament of
visionally annexed really was a portion of
the commonwealth may make laws pre-
the province
. To avoid any such question scribing a uniform manner of choosing the
arising, I move the amendment I have
senators. Subject to such laws if any."
indicated.
But, inasmuch as Victoria has suggested
Amendment agreed to.
the insertion of the words “the times,
Amendment (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
places, and," after the word "prescribing,"
That the amendment suggested by the Legis-
I will, in order to enable the amendment
lative Council of New South Wales be amended
suggested by Victoria to be placed before
by omitting the words “New states shall be
taken to mean such states as may thereafter be
the Committee, put the question to leave
admitted into or constituted by the common- out the first line of the paragraph, as a
wealth."
test of the amendment suggested by
Amendment of Legislative Council, New Tasmania.
South Wales, as amended, agreed to.
Question-That the words proposed to
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
be left out stand part of the question--
Clause 6 (Repeal of 48 and 49 Victoria, resolved in the affirmative.
Chapter 60) agreed to.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
CHAPTER 1.--THE PARLIAMENT.
[4.28]: Clause 10 as it now stands is
prac-
Part I. General.
tically a transcript of the American pro-
Clause 6 (Governor-General to fix time and
vision. . The reason why the provision was
places for holding session of parliament. Power framed that way in the American Constitu-
of dissolution of house of representatives. First
tion, and I think--the hon. and learned
session of parliament).
member, Mr. Barton, will no doubt correct
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
me if I am wrong—the reason why it was
es) 4.26]: This clause was postponed
also framed in that way by the 1891 Con-
pending dealing with clauses about con-
vention, was that as the senators were to
flicts between the two houses ; but nothing be appointed by the state parliaments, the
has been done by the Committee, I think,
place of choosing them should be as each
to prevent this clause from being passed state parliament might determine, and the
in its original shape.
time of doing so should be whenever that
Clause agreed to.
parliament chose to decide upon.
Clause 10, paragraph 1. The parliament of the The Hon. E. BARTON: A little more
commonwealth may make laws prescribing a
than that. We thought, I think, in deal-
uniform manner of choosing the senators. Sub-
ject to such laws, if any, the parliament of each
ing with the matter before, that it was ad-
state may determine the time, place, and manner visable that the parliament of the state
of choosing the senators for that state.
should determine the time and place for
Amendment suggested by Legislative Council elections as it would have a better know-
and Assembly of Tasmania:
ledge of local affairs, whereas the parlia-
Omit “The parliament of the commonwealth
ment of the commonwealth might make
may make laws prescribing a uniform manner of
choosing the senators. Subject to such laws if
laws as to the system on which the elec-
any"
tions should take place.
988
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The manner of out these words. I think they ought to be
choosing the senators was as to whether the left in, for otherwise, for all time, unless
two houses should sit together or separately, there happens to be a referendum upon the
and so on; and the Congress has made laws proposed amendment of the constitution, the
in that regard on two separate occasions; parliament of the commonwealth will not
but we have now provided that there shall have power to provide in respect of these
be a dissolution of the senate, and I think, matters, which it may be very necessary to
especially in regard to that, it will be provide for in case of some emergency.
right, and will harmonise with what we Amendment negatived.
have done, to say that the parliament of The CHAIRMAN: There is a further
each state may determine the time, place, amendment suggested by the Legislative
and manner of choosing the senators; but, Council of Western Australia, to trans-
above all that, the parliament of the com- pose the words “ of senators," to stand
monwealth may make laws prescribing the after the word “elections." This is a
time and place and manner of choosing. mere matter of drafting, and I will make
They have power under this to prescribe
the alteration as a consequent amendment.
a uniform manner, so that if the parlia-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
ment think fit the manner of choosing,
Wales) [4:36]: I think it would be advis-
whether by ballot or otherwise, may be able to add to the clause the words :
determined by the federal parliament.
So long as the senators are directly chosen by
The Hon. E. BARTON : If you make the the people of the state as one electorate.
amendment read “the time and place and We inserted in the second paragraph of
a uniform manner," I will not raise any clause 9 the words “until parliament
objection to it. It will then fit in with
otherwise determines," and inasmuch as
the remainder of the clause.
power is given to parliament to alter the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Leave that
system of choosing the senators by the
to the Drafting Committee.
people of the state voting as one electo-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Then, I will rate, I think it would be wise to add to
accept that.
this clause the words I have suggested.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is not the clause
Assembly of Victoria agreed to.
clear as it stands?
Clause 10, paragraph 2. Until such determin-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Well, it is
ation, and unless the parliament of the common- a mere matter of drafting. I will not
wealth otherwise provides, the laws in force in
propose any amendment.
the several states for the time being, relating to
Paragraph 2, agreed to.
the following matters, namely : The manner of
conducting elections for the more numerous
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [4:38]:
house of the parliament of the state, the pro-
I should like an explanation from one of
ceedings at such elections, returning officers, the the representatives of Tasmania as to why
periods during which elections may be continued,
these words were strack out?
and offences against the laws regulating such
The CHAIRMAN: We bave dealt with that
elections shall, as nearly as practicable, apply to
elections in the several states of senators.
question ; the hon. member cannot go back.
Mr. GLYNN: The position seems to
Amendment suggested by Legislative Council
and Assembly of Tasmania:
me to be this : that, inasmuch as the par-
After “determination" omit "and unless liament of the commonwealth is limited to
the parliament of the commonwealth otherwise making provision as to the manner of
provides."
choosing the senators, and the fixing of the
The Hon. E.BARTON(New South Wales) time and place remains with the state
[4:35]: I do not see the reason for leaving parliaments
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
989
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That has been The CHAIRMAN : The Legislative Assem-
altered !
bly of New South Wales and the Legisla-
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
tive Council of Tasmania have proposed
Clause 11 (Failure of a state to choose the omission of the second paragraph of
members not to prevent business) agreed the clause.
to.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 12 (Issue of writs).
Clause 14. If the place of a senator becomes
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) vacant before the expiration of his term of
[4.39]: It has been suggested by the Legis- service the houses of parliament of the state
lative Assembly of Victoria that this
he represented shall, sitting and voting to-
gether, choose a person to fill the vacancy 5
clause be omitted, but the amendment
until the expiration of the term or until the
was consequential upon another provision election of a successor as hereinafter provided
which has been negatived.
whichever first happens. And if the houses
Clause agreed to.
of parliament of the state are in recess at the
time when the vacancy occurs the governor 10
Clause 13 (Retirement of members).
of the state, with the advice of the executive
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [4:40]:
council thereof, may appoint a person to fill
the vacancy until the beginning of the next
I took objection to the first paragraph of
session of the parliament of the state or until
this clause in Adelaide, and I cannot allow the election of a successor, whichever first 15
it to pass now without protesting against happens.
it. I fail to see the reason for sending the The CHAIRMAN : It has been suggested
senate to the electors in two parts. I by the Legislative Council and the Legis-
cannot see why the principle of municipal lative Assembly of Tasmania that after the
elections should be applied to the election word “until” line 13, the words “the
of such a body as the senate. The idea expiration of fourteen days after” should
is, I believe, to dilute the senate occasion- be inserted.
ally with public opinion, upon the assump- Mr. GLYNN: The objection to this
tion that it will get a little out of touch amendment is that you leave it to a mem-
with the opinion of the constituencies; ber of parliament, whose place is to be
but I think that a far better expedient filled up, to help in determining who is to
would be to dissolve the whole body. You be his successor.
A member appointed
are not going to bring the senate into
during the recess would be sitting for four-
touch with public opinion merely by send- teen days, and he would have a voice in
ing half its members back to the constitu- determining who was to succeed him.
encies. I think the proper thing would
The Hon. E. BARTON: That will not
be to send all the senators back at once.
help him!
If the clause is passed as it stands, half of
Mr. GLYNN: It is rather inconsistent
the members of the senate will be more in
with parliamentary procedure.
touch with public opinion than the other
Amendment suggested by the Parlia-
half, and that I think is not desirable.
ment of Tasmania agreed to.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
[4:41]: I would like to suggest to the hon.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
and learned member, Mr. Barton, that this Clause 15. The qualifications of a senator shall
would be a good place, when he comes to
be those of a member of the house of representa-
consider the drafting of the bill, to pro-
tives,
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
vide for rotation in connection with the
of Victoria :
dissolution of the senate.
Add at the end of clause, “with the excep-
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes.
tion that he must be of the full age of 30 years."
990
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Amendment suggested by the Council and Clause 20. Upon the happening of a vacancy
Assembly of Tasmania :
in the senate, the president, or if there is no
Add at the end of clause “Except that no president, or if the president is absent from the
person shall be senator who shall not have
commonwealth, the governor-general shall forth-
attained the age of 25 years."
with notify the same to the governor of the state
The CHAIRMAN : I will put the amend-
in the representation of which the vacancy has
ment of the Victorian Council first; then,
happened.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [4.55] :
if the representatives of Tasmania, or any
other hon. member, wish to alter that, they member, Mr. Barton, whether it would
I would suggest to the hon. and learned
can move an amendment.
not be advisable to provide that a motion
Question–That the words of the Vic-
shall be carried in the House declaring
torian amendment be added
put. The
that a vacancy has occurred. Under
Committee divided :
clauses 45 and 46, under certain circum-
Ayes, 4; noes, 29; majority, 25.
stances-either through a disqualification
AYES.
arising, or from a crime having been com-
Fraser, S.
mitted the seat is declared to be vacant.
Solomon, V. L.
Teller,
Zeal, Sir W. A. Walker, J. T.
Who is to inform the president of the fact ?
NOES.
The Hon. E. BARTON : Clauses 45 and
Barton, E.
Higgins, H. B.
46 relate to disqualifications !
Berry, Sir G.
Holder, F. W.
Mr. GLYNN: Clause 20 deals with the
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Howe, J. H.
question of a vacancy having occurred.
Briggs, H.
Isaacs, I. A.
Brunker, J. N. James, W. H.
This vacancy may occur under clause 46
Clarke, M. J.
Kingston, C. C.
by a member having been adjudicated a
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Leake, G.
bankrupt or having been convicted of a
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
· felony, and the question is : how is the
Dobson, H.
Lyne, W. J.
Forrest, Sir J.
O'Connor, R. E.
knowledge of that disqualification having
Glynn, P. M.
Quick, Dr. J.
arisen to be brought before the parliament
Gordon, J. H.
Symon, J. H.
or the president? The usual method, I
Grant, C. H.
Turner, Sir G.
think, is that the declaration of-a'vacancy
Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
Henning, A. H. Peacock, A. J.
having occurred is made by a motion in
Question so resolved in the negative.
the house itself. Clause 49 provides that,
on a vacancy happening, if the person de-
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: I
clared to be incapable of sitting does sit,
have no intention of moving any amend-
he is liable to a certain penalty ; but it
ment. I do not desire to see any age fixed
does not go to the length of saying that if
for members of the senate.
a vacancy occurs the penalty is to be in-
Clause agreed to.
flicted: We may be in this position that
Clauses 16, 17, and 18 agreed to. a man by having been adjudicated a bank-
rupt or convicted of a felony, his seat may
Clause 19. The place of a senator shall become
vacant if for two consecutive months of any
be vacated, but the penalty for taking his
session of the parliament he, without the permis- seat would not be imposed upon him, and
sion of the senate, entered on its journals, fails the knowledge of the vacancy haring
to attend the senate.
occurred is left to haphazard.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Suppose parlia-
bly of Tasmania :
ment does not sit for some months !
After “for,” line 2, omit “two consecutive
months of.” Insert " thirty consecutive sitting
Mr. GLYNN: There is no harm in
days in.”
allowing the seat to be vacant if parliament
Amendment negatived ; clause agreed to. is not sitting
Commonwealth of
991
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON: This clause pro- senate or the house of representatives shall be
vides for the communication of a vacancy
determined by a federal court or a court exer-
cising federal jurisdiction.
to the governor of the state in case of it
As my hon. and learned friend, Mr. Hig-
occurring !
Mr. GLYNN : What I suggest is that gins, has pointed out, clause 50 does not
an addition be made, that on a vacancy
provide for that period during which a
happening a resolution ought to be passed in
vacancy may take place before the federal
the parliament declaring that fact, because parliament has an opportunity to legislate
otherwise the president will not know
on the subject, and the question is really
whether it is worth while to provide for
whether the seat is or is not vacated. He
cannot know whether a man has been adju-
the period during which the possibility
dicated a bankrupt or whether he has been
may occur. I do not know whether it ought
convicted of a felony.
to be provided for, perhaps it ought; but
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
I think that may be left in the hands of
the Drafting Committee, and be dealt with
Wales) [4:59]: The Gazette tells him that,
on recommittal. I will take a note of it. .
and the practice, no doubt, will be pre-
Amendment negatived ; clause agreed
cisely the same as obtains in all the legis-
to.
latures at present. On the happening of
Clause 22. The presence of at least one-third
the insolvency of a member, a communica-
of the whole number of senators shall be neces-
tion is made by the registrar or judge in sary to constitute a meeting of the senate for the
bankruptcy to the Speaker or President,
exercise of its powers.
telling him of the vacancy.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [5.2]: This
Mr. GLYNN : In most places a resolution clause fixes the quorum of the senate at
is carried !
one-third. I admit that one-third is a
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER: The reasonable number when there are only
coming candidate will look after that ! thirty or thirty-six senators; but suppose
Clause agreed to.
the number of the senators is increased,
one-third may be too many if the states
Clause 21. Until the parliament otherwise
provides, any question respecting the qualifica- are split up. Suppose, for instance, there
tion of a senator, or a vacancy in the senate, are sixty senators, I think twenty are too
shall be determined by the senate.
many to require for the purpose of making
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
a quorum.
and House of Assembly, Tasmania :
An Hon. MEMBER : No!
Line 3, after “senate” insert or any ques-
tion of a disputed election relating to the senate."
Mr. HIGGINS : I can only speak from
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
my experience in our House. The quorum
Wales) [5]: This suggestion raises the ques-
of our House, consisting of ninety-five men-
tion that hon, members seemed to have a
bers, is twenty members. I feel that it
strong opinion about in Adelaide-that is
would be very inconvenient in some cases
if the House were to meet and to be stopped
to say, whether a disputed election shall be
determined by the federal court or a court
because they could not get more than
exercising federal jurisdiction. It is sim-
twenty members together.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The hon, meniber
ply a question whether hon. members have
changed their minds since then. This
would not let the senate legislate with less
than ten members present ?
clause has relation to clause 50, which
Mr. HIGGINS : So long as you have
provides that:
Until the parliament otherwise provides, all only thirty or thirty-six senators, ten or
questions, of disputed elections arising in the twelve may be a reasonable number ; but
992
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
I want to insert at the beginning of the The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : The
clause the words “until the parliament suggestion is that the clause be omitted !
otherwise provides,” in order to give par- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I do not
liament the power to alter the quorum if think it ought to be omitted.
necessary
The Hon. E. BARTON: The Tasmanian
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think parliament suggestion is that a man should be a mem-
ought to have power to provide for the case ber of both houses of the same parliament !
of a quorum. I will accept the amendment. The Hon. H. DOBSON: It is to omit
Amendment (Mr. Higgins) agreed to:
this clause, because, I think, it should
That the words “ Until the parliament other- come in a later place !
wise decides " be inserted at the beginning of The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I think the
the clause.
hon. and learned member, Mr. Barton,
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
said to my hon. and learned friend, Mr.
Clause 23 (Voting in senate) agreed to.
Lewis, that he would put this clause in
The CHAIRMAN : The next clause to be
the portion of the bill relating to both
dealt with is postponed clause 32.
houses.
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : Be-
The Hon. E. BARTON : What is the
fore we pass clause 24, I wish to ask the
clause later on with which this clause is
hon. and learned member, Mr. Barton,
connected ?
when he proposes to recommit this clause
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out that
which relates to the constitution of the
there is nothing in the bill to prevent a
house of representatives ?
man from being chosen against his will.
The Hon. E. BARTON: As soon as we
reach the recommittal stage !
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
(Western Australia) [5.5]: I would sug-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER :
gest that a man may be chosen, being ab-
The Hon. E. BARTON: There will be a
sent from the colony, without knowing
recommittal stage at this sitting ; but that
about it. In his absence some of his friends
will only possibly be for drafting. I think
may elect him.
it would be better to leave this for the
An Hon. MEMBER : There is no harm
January sitting, because then my right
done!
hon. friend will bave an opportunity to
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
deal with it.
But, according to this clause, he is inca-
The Right Hon. Sir G. TURNER : That
pable of being chosen. I think we had
will suit me better !
better say that he should not be capable
Clause 32. A member of the senate shall not
of sitting
be capable of being chosen or of sitting as a
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I
member of the house of representatives.
think the matter is generally dealt with
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
and House of Assembly of Tasmania :
by the electoral lawi. Therefore, we might
Omit the clause.
as well leave it!
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) The Hon. C. H. GRANT: I would point
[5.4] : I believe my hon. and learned out that the clause does not provide that
friend, Mr. Lewis, whom I do not see in a member of the house of representatives
his place, drew attention to this clause. shall not sit as a member of the senate!
If I recollect aright, his point was that a The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
member of the house : of representatives [5-6]: That matter is dealt with by clause
was not capable of being a member of the 44a. There are two clauses which prevent
senate.
hon. members from sitting in the states
1
[Mr. Higgins.
CC1mowealth of
993
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
3
legislatures as well as in the common- be confined, as it will to a large extent be
wealth parliament. The Attorney-General confined if the salary is made too small, to
of Tasmania moved the omission of clause those two classes of the community.
32, because he thought the matter came The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
under the provisions relating to both Wales) [5.9]: I would suggest that it
houses. I think we had better omit the would not be conducive to obtaining the
clause now, and deal with the matter when service of the best men in the parliament
we come to clause 44A.
of the commonwealth if the salary were
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think it would made equal to that of members of one of
be better to deal with the clause as sug-
the state parliaments. The salary, for in-
gested by the colony of Tasmania. I will stance, in the Parliament of New South
assent to that course.
Wales, is £300, and membership does not
Clause negatived.
involve absence from the colony during the
session. In the case of most of the colonies,
Clause 43. Until the parliament otherwise
provides, any question respecting the qualifica-
however, after the commonwealth is estab-
tion of a member or a vacancy in the house of lished, membership will involve absence
representatives shall be determined by the
from home during the whole of the session.
house.
Under such circumstances, the competition
Amendment suggested by the Legisla- is relatively less in the case of the common-
tive Council and House of Assembly of
wealth than in the case of the states.
Tasmania negatived:
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [5:10]:
After “representatives” insert "or any ques-
tion of a disputed election relating to that
I think £400 per annum is little enough
house."
to pay to representatives who come from
Clause agreed to.
distant colonies. I think, however, ecme
distinction should be made.
Clause 44. Until the parliament otherwise
provides, each meinber, whether of the senate
Hon. MEMBERS : No, no !
or of the house of representatives, shall receive The Hon. S. FRASER: It is done in
an allowance for his services of four hundred
other countries.
pounds a year, to be reckoned from the day on
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
which he takes his seat.
(Western Australia) [5.11]: The salary,
Suggested amendment by the Legislative Council
of South Australia and the Legislative Council
if one were absolutely dependent upon it,
and House of Assembly of Tasmania :
does not seem very large. At the same
Omit “ four," insert“ three."
time, I do not suppose we expect those
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South who are chosen to be members of the
Australia) [5•8] : I hope the suggested
senate and the house of representatives
amendment will not be agreed to. I shall will be altogether dependent on the emolu-
only repeat now, in a few words, the con- ments they receive as members.
tention I made when the Convention sat The Hon. S. FRASER : Many may be !
in Adelaide : that if the salary is made The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
too low it will result in either men of inde- I do not think so. It is more an honor-
pendent means or men to whom the salary arium than a salary ; otherwise we should
itself is sufficient inducement to leave their not find the distinguished persons who
colonies becoming members of the federal now occupy seats in the local legislatures
parliament. Whilst in both these classes willing to accept positions.
we may have able and desirable represen- The Hon. E. BARTON : We should
tatives, I think it would be a mistake that either give a man nothing, or make it
the character of the representatives should worth his while to attend !
3 Z
994
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.)
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: persons who are altogether dependent upon
It seems to me that if the £400 per annum
this small honorarium. If there are no
is to be considered as a salary, it is alto- persons on this continent willing to give up
gether inadequate. If, on the other hand, some time without much reward to the ser-
it is to be considered an honorarium, it is vice of the state, then I take it we are far
too large. We must not altogether get rid from being ready to take upon ourselves the
of the idea that there is some patriotism responsibilities of this federal government.
in the people, and that they desire to give If we expect that this small amount of £400
their best services to the state without a year will be a sufficient inducement to
looking at the matter from an £ s. d. persons to give their services, and, if they
point of view. I am afraid that, when we have nothing else but this, I think we shall
have formed the federal parliament, we have very indigent persons as members of
shall find that those who have businesses both houses of parliament. No one would
which require their constant attention will say that any of the gentlemen I see around
not be able to leave them in order to me would leave their businesses, and go
attend. No doubt those who live close to away to the federal parliament, and that
the seat of government will be able to go £400 a year would recompense them for
by train from Melbourne or Sydney to the loss they would sustain. That is not
attend to their parliamentary duties, re- thought of for a moment. The actual loss
turning now and again to look after their they would sustain, if they had businesses
ordinary business; but what about those to attend to in their own colony, instead
living in colonies which are far distant? of being represented by £400, would
Take the case of Western Australia. How, amount to several times more than that.
for instance, will members of the legal I hope we shall not for a moment think
profession be able to leave their place that the persons who are to be members of
of business and take part in the govern- the senate and house of representatives
ment of the country? They will not be will be persons who will depend altogether
able to do it. Unless they are men of upon the small amount named in this bill.
some means, or have no business to attend If it were so, all I can say is, the amount
to, they will not be able to leave their seems to me inadequate.
homes-especially will they be unable to The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
take office. Their businesses would be [5-19]: I take it that our great object in
ruined whilst they were a thousand, or a electing two houses of parliament as repre-
couple of thousand miles away. I hope we sentatives of the people is to see that the
shall find that those who are willing to people are represented. It is impossible,
become members of the federal parliament having regard to the immense area of the
will be persons who are able to devote continent, that the people can be adequately
some time to their duties. For that reason represented if the choice is restricted by
I do not look very much at the amount want of means on the part of would-be
of the emolument to be given. It is either representatives, and I think the only doubt
too little, or it is quite enough. I do not in this matter is whether £400 is enough.
feel inclined to move that it be reduced, The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: That is
or to support its reduction.' At the same twice as much as the amount paid in
time I think £300 a year would be quite Canada !
sufficient. But I take it that the persons
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is perfectly
who will become members of the senate, plain that anything less than £400 would
or house of representatives will not be be a farce. If there was a proposal to
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
995
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
increase the amount, it might be a matter Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [5.23]:
for consideration ; but we ought not to I would point out to the hon. and learned
hesitate to retain at least £400 a year. member that his suggestion does not go
Question—That the word “four” pro- quite far enough. Under clause 13 the ser-
posed to be omitted stand part of the clause vices of the first senator, or the senators
-agreed to.
of the first parliament, commence from the
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
January preceding the date of his elec-
bly of Victoria :
tion. So that if the suggestion of the hon.
Omit "on which he takes his seat," insert and learned. member is carried out we
"s of his election."
shall be paying a man for time he does.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) not serve.
[5:21]: If we say that the honorarium
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It is the date
shall be reckoned from the day on which
on which the law deems his services to
the member takes his seat, it may be
have commenced !
very hard indeed on the members of the
house of representatives. The house might
Mr. GLYNN: Does not the hon. and
not be sitting at the time of an elec- learned member know that under clause
tion. Indeed, it might be the case with a
13, in the case of the senators of the first.
member of the senate. A vacancy might parliament, instead of their services dating
occur, a member might be elected, and from the January succeeding the election,
might have to commence bis services and they date from the January preceding the
perform all the duties of his position election ; so that if you say that the pay-
and get none of its emoluments. If we ment shall date from the commencement
were to adopt the amendment suggested of their services, in such general terms,
by Victoria, and omit the words on which you will be paying the first senators for
he takes his seat," inserting the words "of time they never served. I would suggest
his election," there would be a difficulty in that the clause should be amended in this
the case of the senate ; because the date way :
of the election of the senators is previous That after the words " on which he takes his
to the 1st of January, so that by omitting
seat" we should add the words in the case of
a senator, the commencement of his services.'
these words you might be paying two
people at the same time. I would suggest That would be the January succeeding the
to the Drafting Committee that they should date of his election, and I think also the
adopt some such words as these “ from the date when the term of office of the old
day on which his services commence.” That senator would expire, so that there would
would apply in the case of a member of
be no overlapping. Then I should add the
the house of representatives to the day of words and in the case of a member of
his election, and in a case of a senator to the house of representatives, from the day
the date from which his services were
of his election.” In the case of the first
actually reckoned
election of the senate the allowance should
Mr. SYMON : Does not a senator begin be reckoned from the date of the election.
his services on the day of his election ? That would be right as regards the first
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: A senator is senators, because the date of their election
elected in the year preceding the 1st of would also be the date on which their real
January, and his predecessor, so to speak, services commenced, though theoretically
retains his office until the expiration of the the date of their services would be from
year.
the January preceding.
996
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1997.]
The CHAIRMAN: There are some new The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
clauses proposed by South Australia and But this provision does not refer to states !
Tasmania to follow. clause 44, and I shall The Hon. E. BARTON : It may be the
first put clause 44 to the Committee. case in a state or in the commonwealth.
Clause 44 agreed to.
In any case there is a competent authority
New clause to follow clause 44 suggested by to make the provision, and there is no need
the Legislative Council of South Australia : to put it in the constitution.
No member of the senate or house of repre-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
sentatives whilst in receipt, out of the general
All that I desired to emphasise was my
revenue, of any official salary or annual sum
shall be entitled to receive any such payment as
opposition to a member receiving the salary
aforesaid, except in so far as such payment may of a minister and at the same time the
exceed the amount of such official salary or
salary of a member of the commonwealth
annual sum.
parliament.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I would sug-
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [5•29]: If
gest that we should not pass this proposed
new clause. It is a mere inatter of legisla-
the words "until the parliament other-
tion for the commonwealth to consider.
wise provides" are used it will permit each
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [5:25]: member to receive a salary of £400 a year,
and the commonwealth would then be able
I think it would be very undesirable to
to provide that members are not to receive
agree to this proposal. It is very unlikely
that salary in addition to an official salary.
that any minister would refuse to deduct
New clause negatived.
from his official salary the salary he re-
ceives as a member of the house of repre- New clause proposed by the Legislative Council
sentatives. Besides that, if any provision
and Legislative Assembly of Tasmania :
of the kind be necessary, it will be com-
444. A member of a house of the parliament
of a state shall be incapable of sitting in either
petent for the federal parliament to pass
house of the parliament of the commonwealth.
it. There is no need to put the provision
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
in this constitution.
(Tasmania)[5:30]: Wehad a long discussion
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
upon this question in Adelaide, and it was
(Western Australia) [5•26]: What I want
to know is whether it will be competent
decided without division that members of
for a minister to receive a salary as a mem-
the various states parliaments should be
ber of the house of representatives in ad-
eligible to be elected members of the com-
dition to the emolument attached to his
monwealth parliament. Surely that is a just
ministerial office? I should say that he
and proper course to take. Why should the
electors be debarred in their choice of repre-
ought not to receive the two remunerations,
and that is in accord with our present
sentatives from choosing members of the
local parliaments if those members be dis-
practice.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South posed to undertake the responsibility and
Wales) [5.27]: This is not a matter to be toil of representing them alike in the
provided against in the constitution.
We
commonwealth parliament and in the state
may rely upon the parliaments of the parliament? Beyond that, there are many
different colonies to provide against the
reasons why this course should be taken.
receipt of the two salaries by their mem-
The effect of the clause would be to very
bers while members of the commonwealth seriously restrict the choice of representa-
parliament, and the parliament of the com-
tives.
monwealth will make a similar provision The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
in regard to its own officers.
Wales) [5:31]: Although I do not wish
$
Commonwealth of
997
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to make this proposal the subject of a long An Hon. MEMBER : He could not give
discussion, I may say that I have always the necessary time to the two offices !
been of opinion that some such provision The Hon. E. BARTON: There are
should be in our constitution. Of course plenty of men who would work twenty-
there are reasons to be urged both ways. four hours to get two salaries, or who
But I take it that the very fact that a would draw two salaries and do work for
member of parliament, both of the state one.
and of the commonwealth, would have a An Hon. MEMBER : He cannot be in
divided interest, is a strong reason against two places at one and the same time !
his being a member of both parliaments. The Hon. E. BARTON : He can, to
“No man can serve two masters ; either this extent. The result of a provision of
he will love the one and hate the other," this kind is almost certain to be this: that
and so on. I believe that there is likely the parliament of the commonwealth will
to be, on the part of a member of both not sit at the same time as do the parlia-
the local and commonwealth parliaments, ments of the states. That will afford an op-
either too strong an adherence to the portunity to hon. members to trot off from
interests of the state to the neglect of his one parliament to the other, from one minis-
duty to and the interests of the common- terial office to the other, and to draw both
wealth, or, on the other hand, such a strong salaries. If there has been one thing more
adherence to the interests of the common- than another which has excited a good deal
wealth as would prejudice the state of of opposition among those I have heard dis-
which he is a member. It is all very well cussing this matter, it has been the oppor-
for the hon. member opposite to shake his tunity afforded to persons who belong to both
head as if that were a very doubtful pro- parliaments to draw two salaries. I have
position. It may be ; but I think it is heard that denounced as gross bribery and
rather a strong one.
I think it is ex- corruption. I do not agree with that pro-
tremely likely that you will have that con- position. I think it is a wrongful and
flict of interest arising. I do not know of insulting way in which to view the mat-
any body of laws in which provision is ter, as it is also an imputation, to some
made for a man to be allowed to hold two
extent, against the Convention. But I
positions in regard to which the course of mention it to show that there is a strong
duty of one office would be incompatible feeling upon the subject. I believe we
with the course of his duty in the other. shall not be doing any good by multiply-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : ing opportunities of this kind. It is all
There are a good many novel provisions in very well to say that every man whom the
this bill !
people elect is a patriot. All of us have
The Hon. E. BARTON: Because it is direful experience to the contrary, and I
a new constitution. But there is no need think we had better act on that experi-
to insert novelties which are a negation of .
the course usually followed in these mat- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
ters. Take a member of the state parlia- (South Australia) [5-34]: I think this
ment who is in the ministry, and who is is rather a strange proposition to sub-
also a member of the commonwealth par- mit to this Convention, secing that nine-
liament. Suppose he accepts an invitation tenths of its members are members of local
to become a minister of the commonwealth. parliaments. It amounts to a statement
Could there be a more incompatible posi- that provincial patriotism is inconsistent
tion?
with national patriotism, that loyalty to
ence.
998
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
the state, and loyalty to the nation, can- of the commonwealth if you like-leave it
not be expected from the same individual; to the electors of the commonwealth, or
that, in point of fact, we are creating a the electors of the states. If they think
body that will be in a state of constant that the two offices cannot be properly
opposition to the various state parliaments. held by one individual at the same time,
I
say that nothing of the sort is the case. they will have the power to say so, and
I would not be a party to the creation of deal with the question when it arises; but
such a thing. I should rather think that to lay down within the four corners of this
we were calling into existence a body which constitution, as if we were the people, and
may be expected to do good work in the wisdom would die with us, that no man
interests of both the nation and the pro- who has the confidence of a provincial
vinces. Otherwise I would not support it. constituency, and is returned as a member
What is the position? We can form some of the local parliament, shall have liberty,
idea upon the subject from hon. members even if the federal electors so desire, to
who have been returned to this Conven- serve the federation in the parliament of
tion to-day. But there is no doubt that in the commonwealth, seems to me to be a
the natural order of things you will have monstrous proposition. Let us leave the
great difficulty in securing representatives matter to those who can decide it from
to attend the sittings of the federal parlia- time to time by their votes as they deem
ment in another colony if, by a constitu- fit. Let us not, local politicians as we all
tional provision on the subject, you per- are, in framing a federal constitution, do
manently exclude all your local politicians anything which might be suggested as an
who have served you well from being in affirmation of the monstrous proposition
the federal parliament. We should not do that loyalty to any state of the federation,
anything of that sort ?
and loyalty to the Australian nation, are
Mr. HIGGINS : We want men of experi- inconsistent things which cannot be ex-
.ence in the federal parliament in the first pected from the same individual.
instance !
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [5-37]:
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I think there are other reasons why I
We want men of experience there at all agree with the right hon. member, Mr.
.times. We want men who have served the Kingston. We are handicapping the bill
-state in the smaller arena, and that they with a great many drawbacks, and if we
should be able to continue their services stipulate in the bill that no present or
there as long as their doing so is consistent future representative in the local parlia-
with the public interest, and at the same ment shall be eligible for a seat in the
time we want to utilise their services in commonwealth parliament we shall handi-
the higher sphere. Why should we declare cap the bill with still further difficulties.
that the two things are utterlyinconsistent? An Hon. MEMBER : Very great diffi-
I do not believe they are. I believe that culties !
in the greatest matter of all with which The Hon. S. FRASER: Very great
provincial politicians have had to deal in difficulties. More especially in the first
this Convention, there has been a proper parliament would it be necessary to have
loyalty exhibited both to the state and to men of experience; and men who are held
the nation-loyalty which is strong now, in high esteem by the constituencies should
and will be strong at all times. I should be eligible for seats in it.
be very sorry to think the reverse were the Mr. SYMON : They would be eligible.
case. Leave the matter to the parliament This provision would not prevent their
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
999
being elected; it merely says that if elected The Hon. S. FRASER: The local parlia-
they shall not hold the two offices !
ments would be mere shire councils then !
The Hon. S. FRASER: Men holding The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: They
certainties are not likely to give up those would be bound to become so.
A man
certainties.
elected to the federal parliament would be
Mr. SYMON : They are not asked to give a prominent politician in his own state, and
them up until the other is made a cer- will have influence in his own parliament,
tainty !
and yet if members occupy dual positions
The Hon. S. FRASER: That removes the sittings of the local parliament will have
part of my objection certainly.
to be made to depend on the meetings of the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: They are commonwealth parliament, and the local
not to come under this provision until parliament will have to be adjourned be-
they have been elected and have a right to cause Mr. So and So has to go to Sydney,
sit in the federal parliament !
Melbourne, or elsewhere to attend the meet-
The Hon. S. FRASER : They will be ings of the commonwealth parliament.
capable of being elected whilst holding the
You will degrade the position of the local
other position.
parliaments altogether. Do we not see the
Mr. SYMON : Certainly!
inconvenience here of members of this Con-
The Hon. S. FRASER: I agree with vention having parliamentary duties to
the right hon member, Mr. Kingston. I attend to in their own provinces? Do we
do not think that the commonwealth in- not see that we have to get through our
terests and the state interests will clash. work by a certain time, because hon. mem-
I see no reason why they should, and the bers here are also members of the local
federal parliament can deal with this matter legislatures, and the work must be got
if it is found to be a drawback.
through or not done at all by a certain time
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South in order to allow them to attend to those
Australia) [5:39]: Clauses similar to these other duties? I say that the position,
were first embodied in the bill of 1891. viewed from either side, is intolerable. The
I have always thought it was a great pity commonwealth parliament and the state
that they were struck out. I do not think parliaments must be distinct as far as their
that we need talk about duties clashing; personnel is concerned, otherwise we shall
but we all admit that in a federation there constantly have the commonwealth parlia-
is a balance of power between the central ment asked to adjourn in order that the
authority and the local authority, and I members of the local parliament may go
do not think that any man should be in and attend to their duties in the local par-
both pans of the scales at the same time. liament, or, what would be just as bad, we
But, quite apart from that question, as a shall have the local parliaments asked to
matter of convenience I think it is most adjourn their business in order that mem-
objectionable that a member of the local bers there may go and attend the sittings
legislature should also be a member of the of the commonwealth parliament.
federal parliament. We do not want to The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
degrade the local legislatures more than tralia) [5·41]: There is another reason that
we can help. We do not want their con- weighs against this pluralism—that is, that
venience to depend on the federal parlia- members of the federal parliament who
ment; but that is bound to be the result were eminent in their local parliaments
if we allow a member to occupy the dual would be governed in the federal parlia-
position.
ment, I am afraid, to a large extent by
1000
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
party interests—not by consideration for degree able to judge whether that inan's
the interests of the whole country, but by
brain or time would enable him to serve
consideration for the interests of the party the commonwealth and the state also. I
with which they were associated in the know from my own short experience that
local parliament. If I may judge from a man could not do it. You can skim
public movements, I am not sure that we just over the surface of things; you can
have not seen something in that direction go to your local parliament and make a
in this Convention. If any members of speech, and then rush away to the federal
the federal parliament were tied by the parliament and make another great ora-
strings of local politics, that would be a tion; but if you wish to advance legis-
distinct disadvantage to the federal parlia- lation, and to take part in the progress of
ment.
your country, and take up the thousand
The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania) and one ideas that are worth considera-
[5:42]: My reason for urging the adop- tion, and must be dealt with in a states-
tion of the amendment of the Tasmanian manlike manner, with continuity, with
Parliament, which is simply a transcript perseverance, I say it is absolutely useless
of the provision of the 1891 bill, is that, to expect you to give your best in both
as I submit in all humility, it is impossible capacities. When the federal parliament
for any politician, I do not care who, to first meet they will take months to pass
do his duty to the electors both in the all the bills necessary to bring into force
state parliament and in the federal parlia- a judicature and other things. They will
ment. I would not allow him to act in take months to pass a tariff bill. For one
the two capacities. My short experience or two years they will have to do every-
of political life has taught me that he thing—the high court will hare almost
could not by any possibility do his duty. nothing to do-and during that time you
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Is this the place will have the very best men from every
to determine that for all time?
local parliament, if you do not pass this
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I think it is. clause, leaving his own state to lcok after
I am sure that the hon. member, Mr. itself whilst he is away trying to make
Higgins, intends to rise for the purpose of his name in the commonwealth parliament.
pointing out that this is a matter that If he succeeds in one parliament, he will
should be left to the electors. I desire to absolutely and positively neglect his duty in
anticipate the hon. member, and, with the other. I again differ from the right
every deference, I differ from my right hon, member, Mr. Kingston, when he says
hon. friend, Mr. Kingston, and say that that it will limit the choice of the electors.
this is a matter in which we are in a far The idea of an ultra-democrat talking like
better position to judge than any electors that! A member of the federal parlia-
would be. The electors—men by the hun- ment is to be provided with a neat little
dreds and thousands—do not know exactly salary of £400 a year, free passes, and all
what it is to be a member of parliament; sorts of privileges, and no doubt one of
they do not know the work that you have the nicest clubs in the commonwealth will
to perform, the thought and reading that be the new parliament. Does the right
you have to undertake, to write your prin- hon. member suppose that the democracy
ciples or ideas on the statute-book; and if of federated Australia will let this parlia-
you were to ask them to vote for a popular ment be without men ? The men will
man for election to both parliaments, they come, some of them with new ideas-men
would do it without being in the slightest not content to go in the old ruts; and it
$
[The IIon. J. H. Gordon.
Commonwealth of
1001
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
will be a good thing. So far from limiting to deprive the local parliaments of the
the choice of the people, it will widen it. men who are their natural leaders, or you
The electors will have to go outside for have to deprive the federal parliament of
other men. I hope that the Committee the experience of the best qualified men
will adopt the amendment, which is taken in Australia, the men most acquainted
from the bill of 1891.
with the working of parliamentary insti-
[The Chairman left the chair at 5:47 p.in. The tutions. Are we to inflict the serious dis-
Committee resumed cit 7.30 p.m.]
location which this would involve upon
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [7:33]: The
the local parliaments; are we to deprive
proposed new clause is, in short, a prohi-them of their best talent, or are we to de-
bition against anyone who is a member of prive the federal parliament at its incep-
a state parliament sitting as a member of tfon, when the greatest difficulties will
the commonwealth parliament.
face the members of the federal parlia-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It does not pre-
ment, of the men of light and leading who
have been used to the affairs of state in
vent such a person from being elected !
the local parliaments? There is also this
Mr. HIGGINS: I am not superfining;
to be considered: There is no doubt that
I am speaking of its substance. I am deal-
men used as ministers or members to the
ing with the broad question : Ought a man
affairs of the local parliaments may be
who has a seat in the states parliament to
hampered in the work of the federal par-
be prohibited from sitting in the common-
liament by having to attend the state
wealth parliament? The hon. member, Mr.
parliaments. Of course, the first answer
Dobson, has intimated that he knew what I
is that that is for the electors; still, there
was going to say—that I was going to say,
is no doubt that there will be injury in-
" Leave it to the electors.” I was going flicted upon one or other of the parlia-
to say something else. I was going to say,
ments by a member having to attend to
" Leave it to the federal parliament." I
his other duties. Under the circumstances,
think that it will be a great hindrance to
I would suggest that the best plan is at
the proper working of the federal parlia- the inception of this constitution to have
ment at its inception if the men who have
no absolute prohibition, but to allow a free
had most experience in the working of the
hand to the electors ; at the same time to
state parliaments are prohibited from being
allow a free hand to the federal parliament
in the federal parliament.
to impose a disqualification upon men be-
The Hon. H. DOBSON: They will not
coming members of the commonwealth par-
be prohibited!
liament. I am not at all sure whether it
Mr. HIGGINS: The proposal is to is not competent for the federal parliament
prohibit them.
under the bill as it stands to impose a dis-
The Hon. H. DOBSON: No; but they qualification of this sort. Section 15 says
must give up their seats in the states par- the qualifications of a senator are to be those
liaments if they desire to sit in the federal of a member of the house of representatives.
parliament. They must make a choice !
Section 31 says "'until the parliament other-
Mr. HIGGINS: They are prohibited wise provides the qualification of a mem-
from sitting in the local parliaments while ber of the house of representatives shall be
they have a seat in the federal parlia- as follows":-I take it that under these
ment. I feel that if you enact that provi- words it would be competent for the federal
sion as an absolute prohibition, you must parliament to make provision for the quali-
face a grave dilemma. You have either fication of a member of the house of repre-
1002
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
sentatives to be that he is not a member of · But I think we should take a wrong course
one of the state houses. That is a matter in irrevocably, or practically irrevocably,
for the Drafting Committee. As we have fixing our ideas in the constitution. I
passed section 31, I do not propose an would point out for hon. members' con-
amendment. I simply intimate that, in my sideration how great the advantage has
opinion, it is worth consideration whether, been to this Convention to have members
under section 31, it is not competent for the of state parliaments here, and more parti-
federal parliament to enact that one of the cularly—of course, excluding myself-
qualifications of a member of either house members of governments. If it be ulti-
shall be that he does not hold office in any mately thought improper--and I am not
other colonial parliament. There must be a going to express any opinion one way or
serious dislocation with regard to the time
the other about it-that members of local
of the leading men of the state parliament parliaments shall have seats in the state
being spent in the parliament of the com- parliaments, there are three modes of pre-
monwealth; there must be inconvenience; venting it.
venting it. The first is that the federal
but that can be got over if it be found that parliament may so enact; the next is that
the duties of a member of a state parliament the state parliament may so enact; and
and of the commonwealth parliament are the third, and, perhaps, the most effectual
inconsistent, and that both cannot be car- mode of prevention, is that the electors
ried on. I hope that the federal parliament themselves may decline to elect a man. As
will be empowered to enact that no man we have these three modes of prevention,
who is a member of a state parliament why should we fear the future in this re-
shall hold a seat as member of the com- spect? Why should we determine before-
monwealth parliament. I do not want any
hand what shall or shall not be done in
absolute prohibition. I want to give the this respect in the federation } It may
electors as free a hand as possible, and be that the state may consider that its in-
experience will tell us which is the best terests will be best served by sending to
course. I shall vote against the proposed the senate some of its most experienced
prohibition. Under clause 36 the place of parliamentarians; and, as we have heard
a member of the house of representatives over and over again that the selection of a
is to be vacant if he be absent two months. senator is essentially a matter of state con-
That will be a good check upon him, be- cern, why should we not leave it to the
cause he will risk the loss of his seat if
state, subject to the paramount provision
absent. I hope the broad view will strike of the federal parliament in that respect,
the judgment of hon. members, and that to decide whether it should send as a sen-
they will not tie the hands of the electors ator, or as all its senators, the men who
so as to prevent the federal commonwealth, have won the confidence of the local elec-
at its inception, having the advice and tors, and who still retain that confidence ?
guidance of those who have been used to It seems to me to be a matter which can
advise, to guide, and control the local easily be resolved by one or other of these
parliaments.
three modes, and I think, therefore, that
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) we should stand by the bill in this respect,
[7:40]: I think that this is a very open and not adopt the proposal which has been
question. There are many arguments on made by our friends from the Tasmanian
both sides as to whether it is advisable to Parliament.
prevent members of state parliaments from The CHAIRMAN: Before anyone else
being members of the federal parliament. addresses the Committee, I would suggest
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
1003
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
that, perhaps, this may be taken as a test The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
division on several amendments. The might be so; I am not so sure even about
Legislative Council of South Australia has that.
suggested substantially the same thing, as The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Does not the
hon. members will see on page 25 of the hon. member think that any house could
schedule, and the Legislative Council of stagger along with advantage without
New South Wales has also suggested the them?
same thing, namely, that no person shall The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
be a member of both the state parliament not think it is probable, under the circum-
and the federal parliament. I take it that stances, that the same gentlemen will re-
this will be a test division on all these main premiers and members of the federal
three suggestions.
parliament. I think there will be inci-
Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
dental difficulties. The question is whether,
The Hon. Sir J: W. DOWNER (South
in the initiation of this matter, we want
Australia) [7:43]: I have had varying
to impose limitations which might have
opinions on this subject, as I expect a
the effect of preventing the electors select-
good many hon. members have had at dif- ing the men who best know the subject-
ferent times. On the balance of conveni-
matter with which they have to deal. We
ence, I think that the paragraph had better
have not such a large area of selection at
be omitted. At all events, we should
the present time as we may hope to have. It
not lay down any such rule as is suggested.
is quite impossible to resist that knowledge,
That must be left to be worked out in the
however we may try to deceive ourselves.
future. It must be left to the federal par-
There may be most excellent men out of
liament to put a limitation on the choice parliament; we have several here at present.
of the electors if necessary. At present,
At the same time, the men who have chosen
I can see manifest reasons why that course
to sacrifice their own personal concerns to
should be taken. I will suppose—and I
attend to political affairs are, as a general
think it is not an unfair supposition—that rule, better acquainted with them than
all the present Premiers, if they continue
those who come in capriciously, and when
in office, are elected to the first federal
it may happen to suit them. I do not
parliament
think it would be a good or a wise thing,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS :
at the beginning of the initiation of this
scheme, to propose a limitation upon the
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I
electors which will have the effect of pre-
will suppose that all the attorney-gene- venting them from selecting as their mem-
rals—and I am quite sure that my hon.
bers the men who have chosen to make
friend will be attorney-general—will be politics their study, and the men who may
elected.
be more peculiarly capable of assisting
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I am afraid
them in any questions that have to be
that, under the bill as it stands, ministers
determined. I do not mention this with
in state parliaments will be prevented
any positiveness; I mention it as my
from being elected to the federal parlia- opinion—which has been, as I say, a chang-
ment !
ing one-with the greatest possible diffi-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : It must be !
dence; but I think on the whole it would
Mr. SYMON : It would be a very incon- be better to begin without a limitation.
venient thing to have them in the federal It will be better to say, if we put anything
parliament.
in, "until parliament otherwise provides.
1004 Conmonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897. ] Australia Bill.
Then, in the course of events, as we find the electors—that is to say, the holding
that the commonwealth advances, as we of a seat in the state parliament is no dis-
hope, and are fairly confident it will, the qualification for election. The electors will
time may come when we shall liave a better select the men of most experience in poli-
area of selection, and when it might be tics, the men in whom they have most
expedient to alter and limit the choice of confidence, and the federal parliament,
the electors. That, time alone will prove. even in the inception of its proceedings,
But at the initiation of these proceedings, will enjoy the same benefits and advan-
to begin by penalising a man in his own tages from the experience of those who
colony in a way as a condition of enabling may be elected, as though this clause
him to be a member of the commonwealth had never been introduced. The limita-
parliament, will be to compel the electors tion is not upon the choice of electors;
to make a choice between their own home the limitation is upon the choice of the
concerns, which, after all, ought to be their
elected. The limitation is upon the choice
dearest property, and the welfare of the of the elected whether he will serve, not
commonwealth, which, dear as it may be, God or Mammon, but whether he will
ought, after all, to be a secondary consider- serve the nation in the federal parliament,
ation. I think it will be wiser if we leave or whether he will confine his ambition to
this provision exactly as it stands, with an the local concerns of the state to which he
alteration, if alteration is needed--and I belongs.
am not sure it is not-which will enable
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : That
a limitation to be imposed by parlia- is hair-splitting !
ment if, in the course of time, it is found Mr. SYMON: How can it be? It is
advisable.
said that it is a limit upon the choice of
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [7.49]: the electors. The electors do not want to
There is no doubt that this is, as has been select their ministers in the local parlia-
said, a very open question, and it is one ments, and send them on to the federal
which is surrounded with more or less diffi- parliament—not necessarily; there is no
culties from the points of view to which liinitation. The foundation of the conten-
attention has already been called. Whilst tion is that your local electors will wish to
I entirely agree with the principle of the send local ministers into the federal par-
clause which is sought to be introduced liament. If they did, then I should sup-
into the constitution, I confess that I am port a prohibition—I do not say in the
impressed a good deal with the suggestion first instance; I feel the weight of the
made by the Attorney-General of Victoria, argument in that respect--I should sup-
as to the existence of a power--if it does port a prohibition of ministers of the state
exist-in the federal parliament to impose being sent to the federal parliament. I be-
this disqualification at a later period. I am lieve it would bea most mischievous thing to
satisfied myself that the principle sought do. It would tend to introduce local politics
to be enforced by the clause under discus- into the federal parliament, or to lead men
sion is t'u right one. I should like to from the states to subordinate, in many
point out, first of all, that it is no limita- respects, federal matters to the exigencies
tion, as some hon. members seem to think, of their local politics. What have we had
upon the choice of the electors.
here ? I admit we could not have had a
An Hon. MEMBER: The effective choice ! better example than we have had here of
Mr. SYMON : It is no limitation upon the desirability of a choice, and the neces-
the choice or upon the effective choice of sity of experience. We have had the most
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
1005
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
experienced men from the parliaments. the choice of the electors; it does not im-
Everybody acknowledges that. We have pose any prohibition upon them; that I
had the most experienced ministers-men think is apparent.
who have held office for years, and who are
Mr. HIGGINS : But members of local par-
full of political knowledge and political ex-
liaments will not stand !
perience. But ithas beensuggestedoverand Mr. SYMON : Does the hon. member,
over again here--notably by my hon, friend Mr. Higgins, say that he will not stand?
on the other side who is against this clause If so, I hope he will reconsider his deci-
-that the ministers in this colony are sion, because that would be one of the
over-weighted by the pressure of public greatest losses the federal parliaments could
opinion and so on, and that in some re- sustain.
spects, at any rate, with regard to ques- The Hon. S. FRASER : A member could
tions that have come up for discussion, not be elected to the position; he could
their views are more or less tinged with not sit!
the atmosphere of the local politics in which Mr. SYMON : Does ny hon. friend
they live. I am putting these considera- mean that the electors cannot elect him?
tions to hon. members, admitting, as I do, The Hon. S. FRASER: I am referring to
the difficulty of thequestion. Is that a desir- the provisions of the local acts
able thing to exist in connection with the
The Right Hon. Sir. E. BRADDON :
federal parliament? I say it is not; and,
Mr. SYMON: That is exactly what we
more than that, when it is suggested that
want to prevent.
a man will be competent, I do not not think
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : You
he can be competent to undertake the duties
of both the localand the federal parliaments.
will prevent the effective choice of the
electors !
To my mind it is impossible for him to dis-
Mr. SYMON: You limit the choice of
charge the duties of both satisfactorily.
I think that the federal parliament and
the member; but you do not limit the
choice of the electors. The elected has to
its duties will be adequate for the ambi-
say whether he will prefer the federal par-
tion of any man in Australia, and that, so
liament with its wider scope of interest
far as the elected are concerned, however
and duty to the local parliament with its
their ambition may be satisfied with the
narrower scope.
existing local condition of things, it will
have a wider field and a higher object than
An Hon. MEMBER: Why cannot he
serve both?
perhaps their minds have hitherto con-
Mr. SYMON:I do not see how he can.
ceived. I believe their presence in the
federal parliament will fill their highest Take, for instance, a minister in Western
Australia. Our right hon. friend, the
anıbition; and, on the other hand, the
duties they have to discharge will occupy
Premier of Western Australia, as we all
know, is monarch of all he surveys ; he
all their attention and absorb all their
can bear no brother near the throne.
energies, to an extent which will be in-
consistent with the discharge of those other
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Like Alexander,
duties which appertain to the office they he is sighing for new worlds to conquer !
hold in the local parliament of the par-
Mr. SYMON: I do not think my right
ticular state. I do not assent to the way hon. friend would be in a position to do
in which the hon. member, Mr. Higgins, much conquering, if, while controlling the
has put it-that it is a prohibition ; it is destinies of the great colony of which he
nothing of the kind. It does not limit is premier, he had to come all the way
1006
Australia Bill.
Conimonwealth of
[ 21 Sept., 1897.]
over to the federal capital to discharge his and pay, and when you have pay in the
parliamentary duties there. We know my local parliament, and superadded to that
hon. friend's capacities are unbounded; the pay of the federal parliament, the
but I am afraid they would be unequal to people of this country, when they come to
that task. The point is whether you are understand those conditions, would not
going to limit the choice of the men who assent to it. If it be a good principle, why
are elected of which body they will be a should we not have the credit of putting
member, leaving it to the electors to say it in the constitution ? Why leave it to
whether they prefer those who have had the people to say,
" These men want to
experience in the local legislature, as of grab at these things”?
course they naturally would, to discharge An Hon. MEMBER : That is sound logic
the duties intrusted to them in the com- -it is a good principle !
monwealth parliament. I understood the
Mr. SYMON: Put it in. I bave
hon. member to say just now that he would already said that I admit the difficulties
not stand.
from the point of view of expediency,
Mr. Higgins : I did not say so !
and possibly, when my hon, and learned
Mr. SYMON: If the hon. member
friend, Mr. Isaacs, points out the remedy
which he has incidentally suggested, it
wishes to convey that, I do hope he will
reconsider the position ; but if it did occur
may be sufficient.
But what I want
hon. members to consider is whether it
to the hon. member or to any other hon.
is not well for us not to say,
" Let the
member not to do so, the effect would be
that the state would have the benefit of
electors reject the men who are already
services which would otherwise go to the
in the local parliament, and who become
federal parliament. There is another phase
candidates for the federal parliament."
of the matter to which I would like to call
But let us put it in as a principle, let us
attention. There is an ineradicable objec- have the credit of saying that there shall
tion on the part of the people to plurali- be no plurality of offices so far as we
ties whether in political or ecclesiastical
can prevent it in connection with this
constitution.
matters.
The Hon. S. FRASER : Why should you
An Hon. MEMBER : Then they will not
elect the members !
prevent the plurality of ministers?
Mr. SYMON: I do not see, except that
Mr. SYMON : I do not know. How-
the mischief, if there were mischief, would
ever, the principle is well understood, and
be greater in degree in that case than in
I think it might very well be ingrafted
the case of the local parliaments. If the
upon the constitution, in so far as it is a
principle. But there is another point in principle applies to the one, it applies
equally to the other.
volved, and it is this : that throughout the
whole of these colonies there is a great
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
objection on the part of unreasoning and
Mr. SYMON: You act on the prin-
uninstructed persons against the federation ciple. Surely the right hon. gentleman
at all, on the ground that it is going to
would not support the opinion that it is
create a lot of offices, and permit what
desirable that ministers of the state par-
some persons who are in the habit of using liaments should be ministers of the federal
language more expressive than refined parliament.
would call a game of grab. They say that The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : It is
the federal system will simply create place not practicable !
(271. Symon.
Commonwealth of
1007
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
]
Mr. SYMON: I do not think that it the two parliaments at the same time. But
is practicable; but if it is neither prac- I think it is an altogether improper thing.
ticable nor right in principle, we ought to that a man should be a member of both
exclude it.
parliaments, and I think that it will tend
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: I to make the members of the federal par-
did not say that it was not right in liament delegates of the state parliaments.
principle !
After all it is a matter of internal polity
Mr. SYMON : But I gay that if it is for the commonwealth, and it is for the
not practicable, and if some of us think it commonwealth to govern its internal polity
is not right in principle, we ought to ex- itself. Just in the same way as I object
clude it. At any rate, I admit the prac- to subsequent provisions, because I con-
tical difficulties which surround it on every sider that they place limitations on the
side, and that there is considerable force commonwealth parliament, I am prepared
in the contention that has been urged in to give way on this matter. After all
regard to many other provisions, and the I think that the views that I or any other
possible difficulties in connection with the hon. member may hold as to what it is
establishment of the commonwealth, and right for the commonwealth to do are
in connection with the first parliament, it matters for us to urge at the proper time,
seems to me that the balance still is en. and that is after the commonwealth has
tirely in favour of embodying the principle been constituted.
in the constitution, and in supporting the The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
amendment which is now under consider tralia) [8.9]: I am extremely sorry to hear
ation.
the defection of the hon. and learned mem-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South ber, Mr. Barton, from the principles which
Wales) [8.3]: I should like to say, with- he laid down with so much strength, and
out detaining hon. members, that having in which I followed him so heartily.
spoken on this matter, and having ex- The Hon. E. BARTON : I adhere to the
pressed the strong opinion that there ought principles !
to be some limitation that would prohibit
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: I differ
any person from being a member of the entirely from the position which the bon.
state parliament and at the same time a and learned gentleman now assumes when
member of the commonwealth parliament, he says that this is not a matter for us to
I adhere to that opinion, but nevertheless decide, but a matter to be decided by the
that I have been convinced by the argu- federal parliament or the states parlia-
ments I have heard that this matter is not ment, as the case may be. The proposi-
a subject for incorporation in a document tion of the hon, and learned member, Mr.
of this kind. I have all along been pro- Isaacs, which is supported by the hon.
testing both at Adelaide and here-par- and learned member, Mr. Barton, to leave
ticularly at Adelaide-against the idea of the matter to those parliaments is a piece
this Convention attempting to legislate for of simplicity. We are the people to decide
the people of the commonwealth, whose this matter, and not those who will be
interests we shall best consult by giving distinctly and directly interested in it.
them the instrument of legislation and Unless the federal parliament and all the
letting them make their own laws. Simply states parliaments in future are going to
in accordance with that principle it is that be composed of angels, unless they are going
I withdraw my opposition to the idea of to be above all questions of self-interest
gentlemen being allowed to be members of and I have never known a parliament that
1008
Australia Bill.
Comnionwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
one.
was—they are not the parties who should The Hon. J. H. GORDON; No; but
settle the question. How often has it been he will not be in the federal parliament to
attempted in our local parliaments to lessen advocate local interests and considerations.
the number of members and to lower their He will, of course, have a natural leaning
salaries, with the result that, after a long towards his own state ; but members of
and arduous fight, the proposal has goner- the federal parliament should be detached
ally been defeated ? So that to leave it to as much as possible from local interests,
the federal parliament, on the one hand, and not be directly involved in their ad-
and to the states parliament, on the other, vocacy, which would be the result if we
to limit the opportunities of their members, had ministers and great party leaders in
argues a simplicity on the part of hon. the federal parliament. The argument that
members who advise it which surprises this matter should be left to the federal
me, after having observed their astuteness parliament, I have, I think, disposed of,
in regard to other matters. The illustra- and the argument that it should be left to
tion of the hon. and learned member, Mr. the electors is, in my opinion, an unsound
Isaacs, seems to me to be against the propo-
.
A member of a local parliament in
sition. We have in this Convention able seeking election to the federal parliament
men who have done, and who are doing would have the advantage of political
good service in the parliaments of their machinery behind him ; he would have the
own colonies; but that, to my mind, shows advantages given to him by his position,
,
the undesirability of having the same men and he would have a considerable start
in both the federal and the states parlia- over an ordinary candidate. The argument
ment. We are engaged here in fighting a of the hon. member, Sir John Downer, has
battle for our own colonies.
in it a spice of egotism which, while justi-
Mr. HIGGINS : The representatives of fied in his own case, I think the most
the small states seem to be !
modest of us will do well not to adopt.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Well, I will He says, in effect, "We are the people of
make that concession to the hon. mem- light and leading. Take away the mem-
ber; he has been fighting the battle of the
bers of the state parliament and you
whole world. To a large extent, we have have nothing left but dust and ashes.'”
all been fighting for the interests of our
I differ from that view. There are as good
own colonies. But we want men in the fish in the sea as ever came out of it. I
federal parliament who are detached as
am bold enough to say that if we wiped
much as possible from local interests. Hon. out the whole of this Convention, Australia
members here have one eye upon the pro- might suffer; but it would still roll on in
ceedings of the Convention and the other its proper place in the Cosmos. There is
eye upon their local parliaments.
really nothing in the argument that the
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON : How states cannot get along-to use some hon.
does the hon. gentleman propose to detach member's phrase—without their men of
the members of the federal-parliament light and leading. I do not know that we
from the interests of their local parlia- constitute the whole of the ranks of the elect.
meuts?
A system of plurality will taint federal poli-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Will a candi- tics with local interests beyond the point
date tell his electors that he is going to at which they should be influenced in that
regard the interests of the whole of the way. It will create monopolists of those
commonwealth as much as he will regard who are at present in politics, and it will re-
theirs ?
strict the opportunities of those who are not
[The Hon. J. H. Gordon.
Commonwealth of
1009
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [8:11] us by the hon. member, Mr. Symon, and
was understood to say that eight out of others, I think that in the beginning, at
the ten members representing New Soutlı any rate, it would be much better for us
Wales in the Convention were members to leave this matter to be dealt with by
of either house of the local parliament. If the federal parliament. There can be no
they were to be excluded, he did not know, doubt in the mind of any one that in the
as a practical man, where they could get smaller states, at any rate, there are not
the remaining twenty-four to properly re- too many public inen who would desire to
present the colony in the commonwealth become members of the senate or house of
parliament.
representatives. We desire to build up
Mr. SYMON : Does not the hon. member these two institutions, at any rate, in the
want to reduce the number of members in early days in a way that will reflect credit
the local parliament?
upon the work that we shall have com-
Mr. WISE: Undoubtedly ; but in pleted. I am sure it is the desire of
South Australia there is a plethora of ad- everyone that the men who will become
mirable candidates. We all hope to see
the first members of the senate and the:
the hon. member, Mr. Gordon, in the house of representatives shall be selected
federal parliament; but I cannot imagine from those most experienced in public
the South Australian Parliament without life, and those who are most able in the
that hon. member in it. No doubt, many various governments and legislatures. If
hon. members will feel the same with re- we exclude every public man from taking
gard to other colonies of which they have a part in the government of the various
more knowledge than I have. As a prac-
colonies;
if we say to him you shall at
tical question, the best course would be once decide whether you shall give up
to leave the matter, as the hon. member, your connection with the politics of the
Mr. Barton, has suggested, to work itself colony you belong to, or whether you
out under the guidance of experience, and
shall take part in the federal govern-
let the federal parliament determine from ment, I think it will have an injurious.
time to time what is the best course. The effect on the early days of the federal con-
logical conclusion of the argument advanced stitution. I believe we have difficulties.
by the hon, member, Mr. Gordon, namely, enough ahead of us without making any
that there is a danger of local interests more, and we may be assured of this :
warping men's judgment when they come that both the states and the commonwealthy
into the federal parliament would be that
will be able to take care of their own
we should elect only foreigners to the business in this respect. They will be
federal parliament.
able to regulate this matter. They will
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : That would soon find out whether it is desirable or
be a reductio ad absurdun!
expedient that persons holding office in
Mr. WISE: Of course ; but that would the parliaments or governments of the
be the logical conclusion from the argu- various states shall also hold seats in the
ment. I will support the suggestion of federal parliament, and the federal parlia-
the hon. member, Mr. Barton.
ment itself will also take care that it shall
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST be fitly represented, and if it finds that the
(Western Australia) [8-15] : I support the plan adopted is undesirable will place re-
proposal of the hon. member, Mr. Barton. strictions upon it. When welook round this
Whatever virtue there may be in the
Chamber and notice that every person here,
future in the proposition now placed before almost without exception, represents the
4 A
1010
Austrulia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
for our
people of his own colony in its parliament; suggested that persons will try to obtain
when we look back to the Convention of places in the local parliament and also in
1891, and remember that every single dele- the federal parliament with the object
gate, I think without exception, was a of obtaining double pay.
I think it is
member of the parliament of the colony he not very likely to occur, and in any
came from, I think we will take a very case it can easily be restricted. What-
strong step if we say that not one of these ever may be our ideas as to what is best in
persons who were there in 1891, and who the future, the best course for us to pursue
are here to day, shall be a member of the now is to place as little restriction as pos-
federal parliament, unless he decides at sible upon any one in regard to whether he
once whether he will throw in his lot and shall be a member of one parliament or
take a part in the federal government, and another.
altogether sever his connection with the The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania)
local parliament. I think it is unnecessary [8:21]: It is not likely that in an assem-
for us to decide that question. It will be bly like this the proposition of the hon.
much better for us to leave it to time to and learned meniber, Mr. Symon, will
settle it. I can at once understand the ob- be carried. This assembly reminds me
jections which have been raised to mem- of a number of individuals seated round
bers occupying a place in both houses; but the festive board drinking to the toast of
I think that these objections may be fairly our noble selves." We are all interested
left to the future to settle. They will settle in this matter, and we are all going to vote
themselves. I think if we frame this con-
"noble selves,” because most of us
stitution in this respect in a way which expect to be returned to the federal par-
will leave it to the electors, which will liament, and if not to that to some other.
leave it to the local parliament, and which It has been argued that many of those who
will leave it to the federal parliament, if
will be returned to the federal parliament
need be, to settle this matter, it will be will be men holding positions in the local
far better than for us to settle it at the parliament; consequently they will be
present time.
As for the small matter strongly impressed with the idea that they
referred to by someone—I forget who it should keeppossession of the parliamentary
was—of members receiving double pay, I benches, and should rule the whole of the
think that is unworthy of our notice. continent. There can be no doubt that
Surely that may be arranged by the local the position taken up by the hon. mem-
parliament or by the federal parliament. ber, Mr. Gordon, is the correct one; but
They can easily make some regulation or . it will have no weight here. I am not
condition as to whether persons who occupy going to attempt to argue the inatter, be-
places in both legislatures shall receive cause I look upon the result as a foregone
double emoluments. The thing is alto-
conclusion. The hon. and learned mem-
gether too small for us to deal with at the ber, Mr. Barton, has altered his view,
present time. As to the proposition or sug- which was the correct one, to suit the cir-
gestion that there is an objection amongst
cumstances of the present arrangement.
the people of the various colonies to per- The Hon. E. BARTON: I did not know that!
sons holding many offices, that is a matter, The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: No, the hon.
too, which will be under their own control, and learned member did not know it.
which they will be able to settle for them- What is the idea? To carry out this little
selves. I have never heard any objection arrangement amongst ourselves. There is
of the sort myself. I have never heard it scarcely a man present who does not an-
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of
1011
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
ticipate having a chance, at any rate, of Question—That the new clausesuggested
being placed in the federal parliament. by the legislature of Tasmania stand part
Many of us were here in 1891. We find of the bill-put. The Committee divided :
ourselves here in 1897, and we expect to be Ayes, 10; noes, 24; majority, 14.
in some other place in 1898. That is the
AYES.
result of the force of circumstances; and Berry, Sir G.
Solomon, V. L.
for any member of the Convention to think Brown, N. J.
Symon, J. H.
that we shall carry out the right principle
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Walker, J. T.
Dobson, H.
is a perfect absurdity-a monstrosity.
Douglas, A.
Teller,
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I am nearly Grant, C. H. Gordon, J. H.
persuaded to vote for it!
NOES.
Barton, E.
Holder, F. W.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: I do not care
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Isaacs, I. A.
whether the hon. member does or does not
Briggs, H.
Kingston, C. C.
vote for it, because he will be in the Brunker, J. N. Leake, G.
minority. We are to have ministers from
Carruthers, J. H. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Crowder, F. T. Moore, W.
various colonies in the federation. Hon.
Downer, Sir J. W. O'Connor, R. E.
miembers speak about the premiers in the Forrest, Sir J.
Quick, Dr. J.
local parliaments being in the federal par- Fraser, S.
Venn, H. W.
liament. I should like to know how many
Glyon, P. M.
Wise, B. R.
Hackett, J. W.
premiers there are here now, who were
Henning, A. H.
Teller,
here in 1891 ?
Higgins, H. B. Deakin, A.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Ministers in the Question so resolved in the negative.
local parliaments will not be able to hold New clause, suggested by the Legislative Council
seats in the federal parliament. They will and Legislative Assembly of Tasmania :
not, at any rate, be ministers in the federal 440. A member of either house of the parlia-
ment of the commonwealth shall be incapable of
parliament !
being chosen or of sittiug as a member of the
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Cannot they other house of the parliament.
serve two masters in a proper manner ? New clause agreed to.
Of course they can. They can travel here
Clause 45. Any person :
from one colony, and they can go back 1. Who has taken an oath or made a declar-
again. I do not, however, desire to keep ation or acknowledgment of allegiance,
obedience, or adherence, to a foreign
up the argument any longer, as it is only
power, or has done any act whereby he 5
a case of so much “ talkee-talkee,” as we
has become a subject or a citizen, or en-
used to say in Victoria in the early days. titled to the rights or privileges of a sub-
Mr. 'HIGGINS : The hon. member has
ject or a citizen, of a foreign power : or
II. Who is an undischarged bankrupt or in-
been in Victoria, then ?
solvent, or a public defaulter ; or 10
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : It so hap- III. Who is attainted of treason, or con-
victed of felony or of any infamous crime:
pens that I know more of the colony
shall be incapable of being chosen or of
than the hon. member does, although he
sitting as a member of the senate or of the
would lead the people of New South Wales house of representatives until the disability 15
to suppose that he is the only man in Vic- is removed by a grant or a discharge, or the
toria who knows anything about it. The
expiration or remission of the sentence, or a
pardon, or release, or otherwise.
proposal of the hon, and learned member,
Suggested amendment ly Legislative Assembly
Mr. Symon, and the hon. member, Mr.
of New South Wales:
Gordon, is the most truthful, honorable,
Omit “11. Who is an undischarged bankrupt
and straightforward.
or insolvent or a public defaulter ; or”
1012
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
]
[21 Sept., 1897.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [8.33]: allegiance.
allegiance. The first part of the clause, it
Before the Committee proceeds to consider will be seen, does not read with the latter
the amendment which has been suggested part of it. For instance, it says, Any
by the Legislative Assembly of New South person who has taken an oath or made a
Wales, I would suggest that we make an declaration or acknowledgment of allegi-
alteration in the first portion of the clause ance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign
by adding words to the effect that these power.” The clause then goes on to say
disqualifications shall operate until the that the person shall be incapable of being
federal parliament otherwise provides. chosen or sitting as a member of the senate
The Hon. E. BARTON : Does the hon. or of the house of representatives until the
member contemplate the federal parlia- disability is removed. But, once a man
ment making provision exempting a man takes an oath of this kind, you cannot re-
who has taken the oath of allegiance to a move the disability because a thing is done.
foreign power?
The amendment required is purely a draft-
Mr. GLYNN: This provision is really ing amendment. The way in which the
temporary. It is to cover the
gap
between matter should be put would be, until the
the adoption of the constitution and the removal of the disqualification caused by
passing of special legislation by the federal the taking of the oath. That is the evident
parliament. I would ask hon. members intent of the clause; but the wording of
also to consider the effect of sub-clauses II the clause is altogether different. I think
and III. For instance, the meaning of the this is a matter that ought to be left to the
term “ bankrupt” itself may change. It federal parliament, and I think that the
may be very different twenty years hence words I suggest should be adopted.
from what it now is. Then there is the The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
word “felony." As Sir Samuel Griffith Wales) [8:36]: I am unable to see that it
has pointed out, the meaning of the word would be a good thing to limit this clause
“ felony” is changing considerably. In in the way suggested by my hon. friend,
some colonies felony is comparatively a Mr. Glynn, who has said that this is a
light offence; in other colonies it is a matter that should be left to the federal
heavy offence. In New Zealand felony is parliament. This happens to be just one
practically unknown to the federal law. of those matters which are included in the
Changes similar to that which have taken constitution of every one of the colonies.
place in New Zealand in regard to the All the colonial constitutions provide for
meaning of the word may take place in such matters as these, and it is perhaps
other colonies, and if you leave the clause right that they should provide for them,
as it stands you will put it in the power for even ir. the first parliament it would
of the states parliaments to either extend be rather a strange thing to find persons
or diminish the qualification by making a
who had taker oaths of allegiance to
change in the meaning of “felony." I foreign powers, who were undischarged
say that this is a matter for the federal bankrupts or insolvents, or who had been
parliament, and that it ought not to be fixed recently attainted of crime, or convicted of
perpetually in the constitution. Again, as felony or infamous crime. Unless you have
regards the construction of the clause itself, provisions of this kind, it is quite possible
I would draw the attention of the Draft- that somebody might take a violent affec-
ing Committee to another matter. The tion for a gaol-bird, and put him into par-
hon. member, Mr. Barton, has referred to liament. We do not want that sort of
the taking of an oath or declaration of thing. It is one thing not to put limita-
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 1013
tions on the ordinary freedom of the at all an improbable supposition. Such a
citizens of the commonwealth. It is another thing has happened, and it is a kind of
thing to provide against the defilement of thing which the electors are to be pro-
parliament, and this would be the case as tected against, because it is a state of
regards the 3rd sub-clause, whilst in the things the electors themselves could not
case of the 2nd sub-clause it would be the provide against. They might be taken in
admission into parliament of persons who warily; they might be caught in a trap.
had not purged themselves of certain dis-
This is not merely a case of preserving
abilities, while in the case of the first sub-
the freedom of the electors, but of pre-
clause it would be the entry of persons venting them from being imposed upon by
into parliament whose very conditions persons who otherwise might creep into
would suggest that their interests were parliament, perhaps, in some cases, persons
quite different from those of the citizens who were insidious enemies of the com-
of the country. Persons who have taken monwealth, and in other cases persons who
the oath of allegiance to a foreign power
had been attainted of crime, or who were
are not to be classed in the same category under other conditions of which they should
as citizens of the country for the purpose rid themselves before they offered them-
of joining in legislation.
selves for election to any legislative assem-
An HON. MEMBER : And not to be bly. I submit that on the whole it is very
trusted ?
desirable to avoid making the alteration
The Hon. E. BARTON : Not to be suggested by the hon. member, Mr. Glynn;
trusted, prima facie !
and while I am speaking, I think Imight say
Mr. GLYNN: That is not one of my that, although it is far less objectionable,
points!
it would be desirable also not to accept the
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the defini- amendment that has been suggested by the
tion of a point is a thing of no magnitude, Legislative Assembly of this colony.
it is not a point because it is larger. These
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Is it not
limitations having been put in all consti-
a fact that in all our constitution acts.
tutions of the Australian colonies, and power is reserved to the local parliaments
having worked well, and prevented the to alter them, and they have altered them
entry of undesirable persons into parlia- in this respect?
ment, they may well be continued in the The Hon. E. BARTON: The disquali-
constitution we are now framing. They fication in regard to bankruptcy and insol-
are not limitations of the freedom of the vency still remains in the electoral law of
electors. It is scarcely to be supposed New South Wales; so that our electoral law
that, except by inadvertence or accident, has followed the constitution in that respect.
the electors would vote for such a person;
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [8:41]:
but it is quite possible that the electors of I think that the hon. and learned member,
the commonwealth, not knowing that cer- Mr. Barton, has not put the case quite
tain persons had taken the oath of allegi- fairly. I agree with what he said as to
ance to a foreign power or had become at- the necessity of imposing this disqualifica-
tainted of some crime, or become bank- tion; but I think it should be only tem-
rupt or insolvent—it is quite on the porary, and that the federal parliament
cards that such persons would stand should have power, if it wishes to do so,
for election for the commonwealth parlia-. to remove it. The principle of federalism
ment, and the electors wight choose them,
is to have as short a constitution as pos-
not knowing who they were. That is not sible, leaving as much as possible to the
1014
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
federal parliament. I ask the Committee light offences, while in other colonies a
to adopt the amendment. That will allow crime of considerable magnitude must be
this disqualification to attach to people committed before one becomes guilty of a
who are returned in violation of the law felony. The hon, and learned member,
until the federal parliament in its wisdom Mr. Barton, referred to the fact that ai
thinks fit to alter or to repeal it. As the similar provision was embodied in some
hon. and learned member has spoken I think he said in all-of the colonial con-
strongly upon this point, I will refer him stitutions. But he omitted to say that
to what Sir Samuel Griffith says upon it. these constitutions can be easily amended.
This is the view he takes. Referring to In most of them an amendment can be
section 45 he says:
made, if it is carried by a two-thirds ma-
This section-which is not altered from the jority of the houses, and a resolution is
draft of 1891-needs verbal amendment. The
passed asking for the royal assent to it.
Words "until,” &c., at the end are not applic-
These constitutions can be more easily
able to the whole of the cases mentioned. The
word “felony” also is, it is suggested, an inap-
amended than the draft bill before us.
propriate one. Apart from the fact that the Then, too, they were passed on the in-
word no longer bears any definite descriptive ception of constitutional government in
meaning, the use of it has the effect of making
Australia. The constitution of South
the disqualification in question dependent upon
state law. In New Zealand, the term is no longer
Australia was passed in 1855, and the
used in criminal law, and it may be disused in constitution of New South Wales and
other colonies. Moreover, the same offences are Victoria are of about the same date. I
felonies in some colonies and misdemeanours in
think the fact that we have similar pro-
others. In all, I believe, manslaughter by negli-
gence is felony.
visions in our constitutions should not
On this point I submit three alternative sug-
determine our decision in regard to this
gestions :
matter. I move :
1. To leave the imposition of disqualifications That the words "Until parliament otherwise
to the federal parliament;
provides " be inserted at the beginning of the
clause.
That is my suggestion, covering the gap in
the meantime by a provision in the con-
The Hon. S.FRASER (Victoria) [8.45]:
stitution
If any clause is wanted in the bill, I think
2. To establish disqualifications until this par-
it is this clause, with a very slight modifi-
liament otherwise provides ;
cation as to the word "felony." That, of
3. To substitute for "felony” words to the course, might be slightly altered to suit
effect following :-"An offence of such a local requirements.
nature that by the law of the state of which
he is a representative a person convicted of
The CHAIRMAN: I would ask the hon.
it is liable to undergo penal servitude or member to confine his remarks to the 1st
imprisonment with hard labour for a term
paragraph.
of three years.
The Hon. S. FRASER: I think the
The Hon. E. BARTON: I have the pro- 1st paragraph is absolutely necessary. A
posed amendment of Sir Samuel Griffith foreigner might get into our parliament,
before me, and it reads somewhat differ- and sell our defence secrets to a foreign
ently. I am prepared to accept it.
power. We must look forward to the time
Mr. GLYNN: That is a question of when we will be a powerful nation, or even
detail. The amendment is suggested by now when we are weak it is still more de-
Sir Samuel Griffith to obtain uniformity sirable that we should be in safe keeping
of interpretation. In some of the colonies within ourselves. Such a clause is in force
the term “felony” includes exceedingly in every country. Would a foreign country
.
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
1015
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
allow a Britisher to go into its parliament?
NOES.
There would not be the slightest chance,
Barton, E.
Higgins, H. B.
Holder, F. W.
and their laws willscarcely allowa foreigner Berry, Sir
G.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Howe, J. H.
to travel through their country.
Briggs, H.
Isaacs, I. A.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania) Brunker, J. N. Kingston, C. C.
[8:47]: I cannot see why there should be Carruthers, J. H. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. O'Connor, R. E.
any objection to this proposal. All that we
Crowder, F. T. Symon, J. H.
are asked to do hereisto affirm a law already Deakio, A.
Trenwith, W. A.
in our constitution, and that the general Forrest, Sir J. Venn, H. W.
parliamentshould have the power of altering
Fraser, S.
Wise, B. R.
Gordon, J. H.
it in any shape or way it may choose. We
Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
are bound to trust the federal parliament. Henning, A. H. Quick, Dr. J.
An Hon. MEMBER : They can alter it
Question so resolved in the negative.
under clause 131 !
Paragraph 1 agreed to.
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS : Yes; but
they would have to go through a great
Clause 45, paragraph II. Who is an undis-
charged bankrupt or insolvent, or a public de-
many formalities.
faulter ; or
The CHAIRMAN: The hon, member must
confine his remarks to the first paragraph, bly of New South Wales :
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
unless he wishes to propose an amendment
Omit paragraph II.
to insert the words until parliament
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
otherwise provides."
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS: Iam in favour
South Wales) [8.55): I propose to ask the
Committee to agree to the suggested
of putting in these words, because it will
amendment of the New South Wales
create no difficulty whatever. We should
legislature. None of the constitutions of
give the parliament power to alter it after-
the various Australian colonies provide
wards if they saw a necessity for doing so.
that a man who is an undischarged bank-
We may be sure they will not make any rupt, an insolvent, or public defaulter,
ridiculous alteration. It is astonishing shall, during the whole period of his bank-
how many objections are brought forward ruptcy or insolvency remain out of public
when it is proposed to give the federal
life. The constitution of the South Aus-
parliament any power.
First of all, we
tralian legislature has no provision of the
are told that we are not to bind the future
kind.
parliament; but as soon as we wish to
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : He
give them more freedom in dealing with
forfeits his seat !
any matter, we are told that we are giving
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : He
the federal parliament too much power.
forfeits his seat. The next clause in the
Question-That the words “until par-
draft bill—clause 46—provides for the for-
liament otherwise provides" be inserted-
feiture of the seat. That brings the federal
put. The Committee divided :
law in a line with the law of the various
Ayes, 8; noes, 26 ; majority, 18. colonies, and that I hold is quite sufficient.
AYES.
Why should men who, through some mis-
Brown, N. J.
Solomon, V. L.
fortune, are compelled to take advantage
Dobson, H.
Walker, J. T.
of the insolvency or bankruptcy laws, he
Douglas, A.
Grant, C. E.
Teller,
kept out of public life until they can get
Moore, W.
Glyun, P. M.
their certificate of discharge?
1016
"Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
.
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Because they can especially if you have to provide for elec-
get it at once if their bankruptcy is honest! tions all over the continent. There will be
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: My ample time for the public to know of a
hon. friend knows they cann
man's insolvency and the causes which led
Mr. WISE: They can get itin this colony up to it. Surely the electors themselves
within three weeks or a month !
can be trusted to say whether a man ought
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: It or ought not to be returned. Apart from
is easy to talk like that, but it is not so that, if hon. members will look at the
easy in practice to do it. If any one con- clause, they will see that a man may be an
tested their discharge and demanded an
habitual drunkard ; he may have been
examination of one thing or another, he convicted of misdemeanour time after
could retard the granting of the certificate time; he may be a thief or a criminal;
for months. What is more likely than but he is not, however, disqualified from
that, in the strife of politics, we should a seat in parliament unless he is a felon.
have some one keeping some leading public I hope the Committee will agree to the
man out of political life by keeping his New South Wales amendment, especially
affairs before the Insolvency Court? In having regard to the fact that, under the
framing this constitution has there been next clause, the disqualification which
any great demand on the part of the Aus-
exists in all the Australian colonies under
tralian people that we should go beyond the constitutions is still provided for, and
the constitutions under which responsible no attempt is made to eliminate it.
government owes its existence ? Has there Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [9]: I
becnany evidence whatever that this law has hope the amendment of the New South
injured the rights and privileges of citizens?
Wales · legislature will not be carried.
We know of instances in which those who Poverty is no shame, and should be no dis-
have devoted themselves to the profession qualification. But unquestionably where
of politics—some of our greatest states- a man fails in his own business, it is
men--have had to live a life of poverty. prima facie, until explained, an admission
They have neglected their own affairs in of inability to conduct the affairs of other
attending to the affairs of the country, and
people.
they have thus impoverished themselves.
An Hon. MEMBER : Not at all !
In many instances, public men have had to
Mr. WISE: I quite admit that in many
seek the protection of the Bankruptcy
Court. Not the slightest suspicion has
cases an explanation easily gets rid of the
been cast upon their conduct of public disqualification ; but, primâ facie, you
would not trust the management of your
affairs, and time after time the electors
have returned them to their seats in par-
own private affairs to a man who had failed,
unless he was able to give an explanation
liament without any injury to public busi-
of his failure. I do not think we ought to
ness. It has never been urged in those
ask that the affairs of the nation should
instances that the public have suffered.
Surely it is sufficient that we should pro- able to give an explanation.
be intrusted to such a man, unless he is
vide that the seat shall be forfeited. The
public are sure to know the circumstances
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Would
of a man's insolvency. Under our law the you keep the seat vacant for him until he
election in such a case cannot take place
could explain?
until twenty-one days. I cannot imagine an Mr. WISE: That is a matter which
election taking place at an earlier period, might be left to the commonwealth, who
[The Hon. J. I. Carruthers.
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
1017
will have power to make general laws re- this provision a man can be a thief, and
lating to bankruptcy and insolvency. All yet not be disqualified !
that is provided here is, that when a man An Hon. MEMBER: Yes, he is disquali-
finds himself in a position of inability to
fied !
meet his creditors, he shall explain to the Mr. WISE: I think he is. I quite
proper tribunal that he has been forced
agree that if the laws of the different colo-
into that position by misfortune. In this nies prevent a man from obtaining a cer-
colony, in Victoria, and in Queensland- tificate within a reasonable time, the com-
I do not know what the law is in the monwealth, which will have power to pass
other colonies--if a man has been forced laws dealing with bankruptcy or insol-
into bankruptcy by misfortune, 'he can vency, may introduce a clause giving a
obtain his certificate in a very short space man an opportunity of clearing himself at
of time.
the earliest occasion. But I protest against
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : If there the idea that a man who has failed to meet
is an opposing creditor?
his obligations—though I do not, by any
Mr. WISE: Why is there an opposing means, regard it as the highest proof of
creditor ? Unless from pure malice, he is public virtue that a man pays 20s. in the
an opposing creditor because he believes, £; many men who pay 20s. in the £ are
rightly or wrongly, that he has been de- rogues. At the same time we have to
frauded or cheated. It is unquestionably deal with facts as they are, and under ex-
true that in this colony many of the men isting circumstances it is prima facie a
to whom we owe most are men who have confession or admission of incapacity, at
had to seek the protection of the Bank- the least, if a man fails in his business
ruptcy Court; but it is equally true that obligations, and he should, therefore, I
there have been frequent scandals from think, be called upon to explain what the
men becoming bankrupt, and making use of causes of his failure were before he is in-
their bankruptcy as a ground for re-elec- trusted with the high duties of legislation.
tion, appealing to the sympathy of elec- The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)[9.4]:
tors, to some of whom, possibly, they owe I hope we shall discuss this matter, if we
money
are going to discuss it at any length, upon
Mr. WALKER : I have known it happen a broad principle, and that we shall put on
over and over again !
one side the local experiences of our worthy
Mr. WISE: Appealing to the sympathy friend, Mr. Carruthers. I quite agree with
of the electors, and asking them to return the hon. and learned member, Mr. Wise,
them, not on their merits, but because that any man who has become bankrupt can
they are unfortunate. I do not think such get his discharge, if he is worthy of it, in a
a display of sympathy is to the advantage very short space of time. A discharge is
of the public interest, and it appears to generally withheld for two reasons. First.
me, seeing that the failure to meet obliga- of all, because a bankrupt has probably
tions involves ruin to those persons who been guilty of something of a fraudu-
suffer loss through that failure, it is only lent character, in which case he ought not
just that the man should be called upon to to be allowed so sit in parliament; and,
explain publicly what were the reasons secondly, because he has been guilty of
which reduced him to that unfortunate extravagant speculation, creating a loss to
position.
his creditors--because he has been a jubilee
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Does the plunger; an ordinary democratic plunger
hon. and learned member notice that under or a conservative plunger, if you like
1018
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
author says:
because he has been reckless and extrava- Then, in regard to the vacation of seats,
gant, and in his greed to make money has
the constitution act provides, among other
caused a loss to his creditors, possibly his things, that a seat shall become vacant if
butcher and baker-for these two reasons a member
sometimes a discharge has been withheld; shall become bankrupt or an insolvent debtor
but does any one contend that if for the within the meaning of the laws in force within
least guilty reason, because he has been
the said colony relating to bankrupts or insolvent
debtors.
guilty of speculation which has caused a
That is the law as far as it exists in New
loss to honest traders, it is withheld, that
it is any hardship to that man that he
South Wales; but matters go further in
should endure the slight punishment of England apparently, for I find the follow-
standing out of political life until he has ing in Anson's "Law and Custom of the
Constitution." The author says:
obtained his discharge? Surely that is a
fair penalty which he should be made to
Bankruptcy is a disqualification for election,
and, should it befall a person already elected, it
pay? If one might refer fora momentitolocal
incapacitates him from sitting and voting. The
experiences, I think I could name a certain disqualification can be removed by the annulment
local legislator who was declared bankrupt,
of the adjudication in bankruptcy, or by a grant
who forfeited his seat, and who went be-
of discharge, accompanied by a certificate that
the bankruptcy was not caused by inisconduct.
fore the electors a few days afterwards and
won his seat back again. For years that
This matter goes so far that it relates
man remained an undischarged bankrupt in equally to the House of Lords, for the
the legislature, and it was said—I do not
A further limitation on the powers of the
say whether it was true or false—that he
Crown must be noted in the case of bankrupt
incurred debt after debt among a body of peers. The Bankruptcy Act of 1883 disqualifies
traders—grocers, butchers, bakers,-with- them from sitting and voting ; but an unre-
out any reasonable probability of being pealed clause of the Bankruptcy Disqualification
Act, 1871, provides that a writ of summons
able to pay them. Is it right that such a
shall not be issued to any peer for the time dis-
man should sit at the table of the federal
qualified from sitting or voting in the House of
parliament to make laws for us? I say,
He may not be guilty of anything So that the disqualification applies even to
very dreadful, but he is guilty of a wrong. a peer. Now, I take it there is no great
He has wronged petty tradesmen, he has hardship in this matter. It has been well
caused a loss to them, and he ought to be pointed out already that if a person be-
punished in some way.
comes bankrupt or insolvent under circum-
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
stances which do not imply any dishonesty
Wales) [9.7]: Something has been said on his part, there is no difficulty about his
about the law of the various colonies. obtaining his discharge.
There is no doubt about the law of this The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : The
colony upon the point. Both the Elec- election may be over in the meantime !
toral Act and the Constitution Act refer The Hon. E. BARTON: It may be
to this disqualification. The Electoral Act over, and it may be also that cases will
says:
occur here and there in which a provision
Every holder of an elector's right under this of this kind may operate with some hard-
act shall be qualified to be nominated as a candi- ship. But we are dealing with the pro-
date, and to be elected as a member for any
tection of the commonwealth, and we
electoral district, unless he be disqualified for
some cause herein, or in the Constitution Act
ought not to leave the commonwealth un-
specified.
protected in a very important matter
Lords."
no.
!
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
1019
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
answer.
simply because some person may at some that, without some such provision, there
time suffer a hardship. The question is, will be danger to the commonwealth ; and
what is the interest of the state? We if we do that, we can make only one
know that the safety of the state is the
highest law, and is it to the interest of The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)[9.12]:
the state to allow all these matters to be I should like to follow the same lines as the
left open, in order that in occasional cases hon, member who has just sat down. The
some hardship may not exist ? That is Victorian Constitution Act Amendment
not the way in which we ought to deal Act of 1890 provides--first, as to the Legis-
with the matter. Unless I am mistaken, lative Councillors, that, amongst other per-
our line is to see that the general interest sons, no person who has been attainted of
of the state is, so far as is possible in a any treason, on convicted of any felony' or
constitution, without undue limitations, infamous offence, within any part of her
protected, even though in cases here and Majesty's dominions, or who is an uncerti-
there some hardship may be created. If ficated bankrupt or insolvent, shall be cap-
we depart from that line, then the prob- able of being elected or continue to be a
ability is that we allow interests of the
member of the Council; and, as to the
state to suffer materially, simply because Legislative Assembly, the same act pro-
somebody may at some time or other, of vides, in the 125th section : No person,
which we know nothing, and under cir- being an uncertificated bankrupt or insol-
cumstances of which we know nothing, be vent, shall be capable of being elected a
subjected to a hardship.
member of the Legislative Assembly; and,
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Would
if he is so elected, the act goes on to say
it not be sufficient if you were to provide that his election shall be void. I think it
that any person who has been refused his
is perfectly plain that the highest concern
discharge shall be incapable of being elected that we have in this matter, as we have
or sitting?
to choose between the inconvenience of a
The Hon. E. BARTON : I do not think private individual and the safety of the
public, is to look after the safety of the
Mr. SYMON : Supposing that he were public. If a man becomes insolvent, either
elected, in a week or two he might have compulsorily or voluntarily, he is under
to vacate his seat again ?
the control of a court immediately. He is
An Hon. MEMBER : Suppose he never liable to be called up for examination; his
applied for his discharge ?
conduct is liable to be inquired into, and
The Hon. E. BARTON: I do not think if the court should find him guilty of any
that would meet the case; and I think we improper conduct, he may be subjected to
are on safer ground if we let these matters punishment more or less severe. Surely &
stand as they are.
I do not wish to take person under a cloud for the time being
up any stand of blind conservatism. This ought to stand aside until his conduct has
is not a matter of conservatism, but of been thoroughly cleared in the interests
looking after the interests of the common- of public morality he ought to keep a stain
wealth, and nothing else, and I take it off the highest court of the country. Surely
that we are to weigh those two things it is his duty to stand aside, and if so, it is
in the balance—the possibility during a for us to see that the law is made per-
long track of time of some hardship oc- fectly clear to, if necessary, compel him to
curring to some innocent person, and, on
the other hand, the very great probability Paragraph 2 agreed to.
SO.
do so.
1020
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
III. Is attainted of treason or convicted of name him.” To that the member replied,
felony or of any infamous crime :
“What then, Mr. Speaker ?” and the
his place shall thereupon become vacant.
Speaker had to confess that he did not
The Hon. E. BARTON: An amend-
know.
ment to this paragraph has been suggested
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
by Sir Samuel Griffith, to which the hon.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS :
member, Mr. Dobson, has already referred,
The Hon. E. BARTON: I take it that
and I should like to mention it. It may
the term "public" defaulter covers more
be that the Committee will think that it
cases than that. It must cover cases in
is superior to the present provision, and
which persons who have given no oppor-
the matter goes a little beyond mere draft-
tunity for the law to act upon them are
ing. That is why I think I am bound to
still liable to its penalties. That would
mention it at once.
be the position of a person who absconded.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Does the hon.
A public defaulter might also be a person
and learned member propose to adopt the
who as an accountant to the Treasury, was
words?
in default.
The Hon. E. BARTON: The words in
The Hon. H. DOBSOY: Or a man who
the clause are :
had not paid his land-tax!
Who is attainted of treason or convicted of
felony or any infamous crime.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [9.17]: The
Sir Samuel Griffith has endeavoured to phraseology of this clause is almost the
make the matter a little more specific, and
same as that used in the Constitution of
the Committee will judge whether it is Canada, which was drafted by an Imperial
draftsman in 1865 or 1866. The Victorian
desirable to adopt his suggestion, which
is, that in place of the words "felony or
act also contains a very similar provision:
any infamous crime,” we should insert Provided that no person who shall have been
the following words :
attainted of any treason or convicted of any
felony or infamous crime in any part of her
Any offence of such a nature that by the law
Majesty's dominions shall be capable of being
of the state of which he is a representative, the elected a member of the said assembly.
person convicted of it is liable to undergo depri-
vation of liberty for a term of three years.
I admit that the words in the clause a
If we are not going to leave the definition
not so definite as we should like ; but it
of felony or infamous crime to a concep-
would be better not to depart from them
tion we may have of it at different times, without very good reason. Especially would
there is something definite here laid down
it be well not to insist upon the three
as to liability to sentence which would years' conviction. Many a man who gets
make a disqualification. I have not risen
two years is as big a rogue as the man who
for the purpose of supporting the suggested gets three years.
amendment; but I think it highly necessary
Mr. Wise : In New South Wales the
that in a case of this kind such an amend- distinction between felony and misde-
ment should be laid before the Conmittee. meanour depends upon the length of im-
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : prisonment to which the offender is liable!
The Hon. E. BARTON: A great many
Mr. HIGGINS: I think it will be bet-
people have asked me that question, and I ter to adhere to the provision in the clause.
bave asked the question myself. The right In doing so we shall be adhering to the
hon. member will remember the story of provisions of the constitutions of Canada
the speaker who said, “If the hon. mem- and of Victoria, and, I believe, New South
ber continues his conduct I shall have to Wales.
are
Commonwealth of
1021
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
It says:
The Hon. I. A.ISAACS (Victoria) [9.19]: The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : I
I would direct the attention of hon. mem- know something is meant, but it would be
bers to the proposed amendment of Sir infinitely better if we knew precisely what
Samuel Griffith. I must confess that I do is meant. There are these terms “public
not think we should adopt it as it stands. defaulter and also " infamous crime."
Other expressions should be used more
An offence of such a nature as by the law of readily “understanded of the people."
the state
The Drafting Committee might reconsider
Why not also an offence against the federal paragraph 3.
law ?
Mr. WALKER: I understand the hon.
Mr. SYMON : There will be no criminal member, Mr. Barton, thinks that the
offences under the federal law, except Drafting Committee will accept Sir Samuel
offences against the federal government ! Griffith's suggestion !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : A man might The Hon. E. BARTON : They will deal
commit a crime under the federal law, and with it !
he should be equally disqualified.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9.23] :
Mr. SYMON : Surely the hon. and learned
I would direct the attention of the hon.
member would not admit such a man to
member, Mr. Barton, to the words "until
the federal parliament !
the disability is removed by a grant of a
The Hon. E. BARTON: There will be no discharge." I would suggest that those
criminal offences under this constitution ! words should be left out, because there is
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There may
a possibility of removal of a disability by
be criminal offences incidental to the con-
annulment or adjudication in some of the
stitution. For instance, there might be a
colonies, in which case there would be no
customs declaration amounting to perjury. grant of a discharge. Then there might be a
Why it should not apply to any penalty, composition oranarrangemententeredinto.
The Hon. E. BARTON: That would be
or to any misdemeanour which is of an
infamous nature, I cannot imagine.
a reason, not for leaving out the words, but
An Hon. MEMBER : Surely it does !
for adding others !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No; these
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
(Western Australia) [9.24]: In the Con-
are the words :
By the laws of the state of which he is a re-
stitution Act of Western Australia, which
presentative he is not capable of being chosen or
is the most recent, it is provided that no
elected,
person shall be qualified for a seat in the
The idea might be right, but it requires Legislative Council or Legislative Assem-
careful alteration of the words.
bly if he be an uncertificated bankrupt, or
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON a debtor who has made a deed of arrange-
(South Australia) [9.21]: I trust the ment, or who, in any part of her Majesty's
Drafting Committee will not fail to exer- dominions, bas been attainted or convicted
cise a liberaldiscretion instriking out words of treason or felony. That is wider than
whieh they do not understand, and that the provision now proposed, because it
they will put in words which can be under- makes no provision for a man who purges
stood by persons commonly acquainted his offence with regard to treason or felony.
with the English language.
Mr. SYMON : Does not the hon. member
The Hon. E. BARTON: The words "public believe that it ought to be so?
defaulter are used to define a certain The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
class of defaulter !
I am not expressing an opinion about that;
1022 Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
We can-
but I say that there is nothing unreason- Clause 47 (paragraph 3). But this section does
able in the proposal contained in this bill.
not extend to any agreement made, entered into,
or accepted by, an incorporated company con-
In Victoria, I believe, there is the same
sisting of more than twenty persons, if the agree-
provision as I have quoted with regard to ment is made, entered into, or accepted, for the
Western Australia. This matter was dis- general benefit of the company.
cussed in 1891, and provisions were in- Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9.27]:
serted. I think there was a division, and I think that an addition ought to be made
the question was decided by a large ma- to this paragraph, so as to prevent persons
jority. I cannot agree with the hon. mem- who hold, perhaps, one-third or one-half
ber, Mr. Carruthers, in thinking that a the capital of a company from being still
person who has become insolvent
entitled to sit in parliament. We know
The CHAIRMAN: I will ask the hon. mem-
perfectly well that the disqualification
ber not to refer to questions of insolvency. which is intended to apply to an indi-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
vidual is very often got rid of by that
I would only point out the present provi- person floating his business into'a com-
sion is much more liberal than that con-
pany and retaining perhaps five-sixths of
tained in the constitution most recently the capital. That is an evasion of this
granted, and it is more liberal than the
provision which I do not think ought to
provision in the Victorian act.
be allowed to continue. If it is put in
not go very wrong in accepting this.
the constitution it will be very hard to
Question—That paragraph 3 stand part get rid of it. I would suggest that some
of the clause-resolved in the affirmative.
limitation be put on the extent of the
Clause agreed to.
capital of the company which a particular
Clause 46 (Place to become vacant on
individual can hold.
happening of certain disqualifications)
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: How can
agreed to.
you
draw a hard and fast line of that kind ?
Clause 47 (paragraph 2). Any person, being a
member of the senate or of the house of repre-
Mr. GLYNN: Of course it is very diffi-
sentatives, who, in the manner or to the extent cult to draw a harıl and fast line. On the
forbidden in this section, undertakes, executes,
other hand I think it is a monstrous in-
holds, enjoys, or continues to hold, or enjoy,
any such agreement, shall thereupon vacate his justice that a man may float his private
place.
business into a company with a capital of
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South perhaps £500,000, hold himself £400,000
Wales) [9-26]: There is a slightamendment worth of that capital, and be entitled to
I should like to make here, which I think sit in parliament, notwithstanding this
would be an improvement. It has been sug provision. It is making fish of one and
gested by Sir Samuel Griffith that after the fowl of another.
word "agreement," to make the clause more The Hon. J.H.IHOWE: There is another
binding, and I think, perhaps, it is desir-
side to that!
able, we should insert the words, "from any
Mr. GLYNN: There are generally two
part or share of it, or any benefit or emolu-
sides to a question, and I am discussing
ment arising from it." I move :
the right side. I would suggest whether
That the paragraph be amended by the inser-
we ought not to add to the paragraph these
tion after the word "agreement," line 6, of the
words:
following words :-
or any part or share of it,
or any benefit or emolument arising from it." And the person holds less than one-twentieth
Amendment agreed to; paragraph, as
of the capital of the company.
amended, agreed to.
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: That is absurd !
66
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 1023
Mr. GLYNN : Does the hon. member of the benefits and escape a good many of
think, then, that a person should be dis- the liabilities of incorporated companies.
qualified from being concerned in an agree- Mr. GLYNN : How does it prevent
ment from which he has a benefit of, per- dummying?
haps, £20,000 as a private individual, and The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: It does not
if he floats that into a company and 're- prevent it; I want to guard against it.
tains £17,000 out of the £20,000 interest They are called companies, but they are
he can still sit in parliament ?—or does he really, in the majority of cases at all
think that a man in a colossal concern, or events, private concerns.
brewery, of the value of £200,000, can Mr. WALKER : One-man companies !
float it into a company and retain £150,000 The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They are
worth of capital, and still maintain his really one-man companies. I can under-
seat in the house, while the man who stand the case of a person in Victoria who
enters into an agreement with the com- is a member of the federal parliament, who
monwealth amounting altogether to £1,000, would escape if the word "twenty" re-
is disqualified to sit in parliament? I mains, by floating his business into a pro-
think the thing is monstrous. We know prietary company not exceeding twenty-
perfectly well that in some of the state five persons. He would be able to con-
legislatures persons who control enormous tract with the Government, and have no
firms which have entered into contracts disability. If we extend it to twenty-five
with the respective states still retain,
persons it covers every other colony and
under the guise of simply being directors Victoria as well.
of a company, their seats in parliament. I The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [9.32]:
think that that ought to be prevented. At There is no virtue in numbers. I do not
all events, I shall test the feeling of the object to twenty-five; I only say there is
Committee on the point by proposing the ad-
no more virtue in twenty-five than in
dition of the words I read to the paragraph. twenty. A man may have thousands and
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) tens of thousands of pounds in a company
[9.29]: Before my hon. and learned friend of 'twenty-five, twenty-six, or thirty, or
moves his amendment, I want to substi- more persons, and he may have a very
tute the word “twenty-five” for the word small interest indeed in a company of
" "twenty,” i
” in line 4 of the paragraph. The twenty. That, however, would not in the
object of the clause is to prevent individuals slightest degree influence me
one way
making a personal profit out of their public or the other. It is impossible to draw the
positions; and, following the general exemp- line. A man may be the proprietor of a
tion, the clause goes on to say that the pro- paper company.' He way not be able to
hibition is not to extend to an agreement sell one shilling's worth of paper to the Go-
made by an incorporated company consisting vernment, and yet his interest may be
of more than twenty persons, if the agree- infinitesimally small.
infinitesimally small. If we fix the num-
ment is made for the general benefit of the ber at twenty-five instead of twenty, it may.
company. In Victoria, by recent legisla- be on a par with our colonial acts. If we
tion, there is what is called a proprietary go the full length, we ought to exclude
company—that is to say, a private indivi- bank shareholders who deal with the Crown
dual baving a business may incorporate his through the departments. We cannot draw
company. It is really a private concern or a hard and fast line in cases like this. If
firm, and as long as it does not exceed we did, the result would be all kinds of
twenty-five shareholders, he can have many complications.
1024
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON worth catching, and let the big one go free
(South Australia) [9.34]: I hope we shall whose operations ought to be dealt with?
amend the clause so as to make the provi- Under these circumstances, I shall be
sion something real, instead of the sham found supporting the amendment moved
and farce it is under existing legislation by my hon, friend, Mr. Glynn, or any other
I think we can provide against abuse of amendment which will make the thing a
the provision which occurs every day in substantial reality and not a delusion and
connection with colonial legislatures. At a snare.
I understand the hon. member,
present we have in various colonial consti- Mr. Glynn, proposes that where there is a
tutions this exemption in favour of incor- substantial interest retained by the mem-
porated companies. What is the result ? ber of parliament in the government con-
A private individual who is a representa- tract, whether he acts directly or through
tive cannot sell a bag of flour to a govern-
the medium of an incorporated company,
ment. He cannot, if he is in parliament, the same provision shall apply, and he
contract for the insertion of advertisements should be penalised and the thing prohi-
in the newspaper of which he is the bited. We ought not allow a thing to be
proprietor, although there may not be done indirectly to a great extent which we
more than £5 or a few shillings involved. prohibit when it is done directly in a much
On the other hand, if the business is big less and important degree. The amend-
enough to warrant him in floating it into ment of the hon. member, Mr. Glynn,
a company, although he practically retains seems to me to deal with the matter
the whole interest himself, he can engage An HON. MEMBER : What is that
in business arrangements with the govern amendment ?
ment involving hundreds and thousands of
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: It
pounds. I know of cases in our own legis- proposes to take away the benefit of this
lature. I make no complaint of the action
exemption from companies in which a
of those who have been concerned in the
member of parliament holds a substantial
formation of these companies. I believe
interest-say one-twentieth of the whole
they have done good work which has pro-
concern. I should be prepared to go for
fited the government, and they have every
the striking out altogether of this exemp-
reason to be proud. But I say that the
tion.
thing in its present condition is absolutely
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: So would I!
indefensible. We are "straining at a gnat
and swallowing a camel.” Hundreds of
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
thousands of pounds in connection with go-
If the hon. gentleman will take the sense
vernment work go into the pockets, pro-
of the Convention on the point
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The
perly, of government contractors who are
members of parliament, who are protected right hon. gentleman would make the
through the formation of their businesses
limitation more stringent; I would make
into limited companies. Now, ought that
it less stringent !
to be so ? Surely we cannot justify the con- The Right Hon. C. O. KINGSTON:
tinuance of a thing of that sort. Knowing The hon. member would allow all these
the way in which it is abused, is it not honest arrangements between the member of par-
either to strike out all limitation, or, at the liament and the federal government to go
least, to provide so that the existing condi- on, of course taking some care that they
tion of affairs shall not be continued, when were made public. I am not at present
you catch the smaller man who is not prepared to do that, though certainly that
!
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australice Bill.
1025
position would be much more logical than visions of this clause is intended to be pro-
penalising the private individual, and ex- hibited in the case of private individuals
empting the public company-striking at ought to be in all cases prohibited when
the small transactions, and winking at the members of parliament are substantially
large ones. I should like to see the ex-
concerned.
.emption in favour of a company struck out, The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
and, if anything of that sort is moved, I Australia) [9.41]: I think it inexpedient
shall be found supporting it.
to allow members of parliament to have
Mr. HIGGINS : Suppose the federal go- any contractual relations which might
vernment keeps some money at à bank— suggest to any one that their position
what about the shareholders of the bank- might be impure. But all these precau-
ing company?
tions.which have been taken from time to
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : time arose when things were not done in
You cannot define the nature of the trans- the broad light of day in the way in which
actions; but it seems to me that it is just they now are. Nowadays everybody knows :
as possible to make arrangements which something more about every one else's busi-
you ought not to make with banking com- ness, unfortunately, than he does about his:
panies as with other companies--arrange- own. I think it is scarcely necessary that,
ments in connection with the handling of with the great publicity which we enjoy
money and the depositing of public cash. through the medium of the press, and of
No doubt arrangements may be made pro- which we are all so proud, the publicity
fitable to the state and profitable to the which is given to the concerns of all of us,.
bank; but I think it is a pity that huge that we should surround ourselves with
transactions of this sort should be going on precautions which operate as a limitation
when any member of parliament is inter- upon the operations of the government
ested in them to any considerable extent. rather than produce as a result, the purity
You would not allow it if it were the case of members. As a matter of fact a coach
of a member of parliament who was the and four can be driven through this act of
sole proprietor of a business trading in parliament, as it can be through all acts-
his own name. Why then should you of parliament with similar provisions. In
allow it when it is done through the making any provision of this kind, you
medium of a company in which the mem- add to the original offence the further
ber of parliament may retain, practically, offence of duplicity, in that persons do
the whole of the interest? Under these their dirty work through other persons.
circumstances, if there be an opportunity There is some nominal contractor who is
-I do not propose to move in the matter put up—the real motive power being con-
myself-to strike out the whole of the cealed. And so things will go on, and
exemption in favour of an incorporated your acts of parliament will become a per-
company, I shall support the proposal. fect sham in their working. They will
I would support anything which would prevent no. dishonesty and will become
have the tendency, which I believe the objects of scorn to the whole community,
amendment of my friend, Mr. Glynn, Now, I say that, at a time when we had
will have—that of limiting these exemp- not so much publicity, when it was thought
tions, and preventing persons from doing good enough to look after one's own affairs,
indirectly, through the medium of an and not to bother so much about the affairs
organisation, that which they cannot do
of other persons
directly. That which by the general pro-
An HON. MEMBER : Good old times !
4 B
1026
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 Sept., 1897.]
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is
expect that they had their demerits, but a perfect farce to think you make any
I think they had their merits too. But difference by a limitation of that kind.
when this flashlight is always about us, Neither do I think that the amendment
and when everyone sees everything that suggested by the hon. member, Mr. Glynn,
every one else is doing publicly-I make will make any difference. I do not care
that qualification-what is the good of put- whether it is or is not carried. I am
ting into an act of parliament provisions satisfied that the clause should stand, but
intended to produce purity, and which can I would be better satisfied if it were struck
only have the effect of producing fraud and out, for I think that when we have reached
deception ? I have said in our own House a condition of advancement we should not
that I think the time has almost come make provisions which, under the guise of
when we should do away with all these preventing frauds, would limit the powers
provisions. If the matter is looked at of the government, and prevent them from
honestly and fairly, we limit the power of making contracts which would be most
the Government to make the contract best beneficial to them, except at the expense
in their own interests. If they cannot do of driving their contractors to underhand
that, then persons who want to contract proceedings, which are against the law and
with the Government are careful of any injurious to the community.
.contractual relations they have with them. The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[9:47]:
The thing is not done in their name, but In the case of large shareholders, such as
it is done in the name of some one else; the right hon. member, Mr. Kingston, has
and as we know, as the Premier of South mentioned, who have no control of the
Australia knows, and he agrees with me management, it would be absurd to make
to a great extent in what I am saying, I them liable to penalties in this manner.
:am sure—as we all know, these things are A man who was a very large shareholder
done, and will be done.
might be a member of parliament, and he
The Hon. S. FRASER: I do not think might have nothing whatever to do with
they are done to any great extent. That the management of the company, he being
certainly is not the case in our colony, and neither a director nor an official of the
I know a good deal about it.
company. Of course he would not have
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: There in the least degree control over its affairs,
it may be from companies,
and in that case it would be absurd simply
The Hon. S. FRASER : Not at all ! because he had a large interest in it to
Mr. SYMON : It is not worth talking make him amenable to this law. But in
about!
the case of private persons who are sup-
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do plying the departments of the government,
not think there is anything at all in it. I they, through the various means at their
think that you might remove the provi- disposal, could influence heads of depart-
sion and do no harm, or that you might wents and others who took delivery of
keep it in and do no good. But I agree goods, and it would be very wrong to open
with the hon. member, Mr. Fraser, en- a door of that kind to thein.
tirely, in .saying that whether you make Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [9:48]: I
the number 20 or 25, it does not make think that if we were to adopt the exclu-
much difference.
sion of the clause as suggested by the right
The Hon. S. FRASER : It makes no dif- hon. member, Mr. Kingston, we should be
ference at all !
interfering with a large class of distinctly
.
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
1027.
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australice Bill.
honest transactions. If we were to leave but there is no reason why the federal
out this clause it would mean that suppos. parliament should not be allowed to add to
ing that I happened to be holding five these disqualifications. In clause 31 we
shares in a hardware company, and it
say
came to be known that that hardware
until the parliament otherwise provides the dis-
qualifications of a member oi the house of repre-
company had sold some fencing wire to
sentatives shall be as follows.
any department of the commonwealth I
I think, therefore, we should make it clear
should have to vacate my seat. That is
that the federal parliament should have
going to an extreme; but at the same time
the right to provide a new disqualification.
it should be remembered that the one-man
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : It
companies are often the source of great
will not have that right unless we give it
abuse. I have heard of some cases where
to them expressly !
a company consisting of one man has been
Mr. HIGGINS: We ought to give them
able to get very good contracts from the
the right, and I think it is a question for the
government whom he supported for the
Drafting Committee to consider whether
time being
There is one feature in all
the clauses, as they stand, allow it to
these one-man companies that may en-
them. I think that they do; but if they
able you to reach such fellows-that is,
do not we ought to see that this power is
that in the one-man company the man
who really gets the profits is the manag-
given to them. We ought not to define in
the constitution what kinds of fraud and
ing director or general manager, and he
misdoing should prevent a man from hold-
has always got his thumb on the opera-
ing a seat.
As we are agreed upon this
tions of the company, so I think it would
subject I think the leader of the Conven-
be possible to make a limitation on this
clause to the effect that it is not to apply Drafting Committee to see that power is
tion might make a note of it, and ask the
to any agreement made and entered into
given to the Federal Parliament.
by any incorporated company consisting
Amendment (the Hon. I. A. ISAACS)
of more than twenty persons, if entered
agreed to.
into for the general benefit of the company,
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [9.54]:
and if the member of the senate or the
I move :
house of representatives is not a director
That the following words be added to the
or manager or official of the company. clause :-"and the person holds less tban one-
These companies cannot be carried on for twentieth of the capital of the company."
a man's particular benefit unless there is I dare say the drafting of this amendment
à provision in the articles that he has could be improved, but I wish to have the
control of their operations, or unless he is principle affirmed. The practical effect of
general manager or advising director. the amendment will be that if a man holds
An Hon. MEMBER: What is the English less than £1,000 worth of shares in a com-
law?
pany whose capital is £20,000, or if he
Mr. HIGGINS: The English law, holds less than £5,000 worth of shares in
apart from express statutes, gives us no a company whose capital is £100,000, he
protection. There is a broader aspect of may sit; if he holds more he cannot.
this question, and that is, ought we not to The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)[9:55]:
give to the federal parliament the power The twentieth of £10,000 would be only
as fraud multiplies to multiply the pro- £500, but the twentieth of a millon would
visions against it? We cannot make be an immense sum, so that the provision
adequate provision in the constitution; would be inconsistent and absurd.
i
1028
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. GLYNN: Will the hon, member ac- The CHAIRMAN: I will not put the pro-
cept one-tenth?
posed new clauses suggested by the Legis-
The Hon. S. FRASER: No fractional lative Council of South Australia—47A
amount will make sense of the clause,
and 471–because there are questions in-
because it all depends upon what sum has
volved in those clauses which have already
to be divided. To make sense of it you
been decided.
must state the amount in pounds sterling. Clause 48 (paragraph 1). If a member of
Mr. SYMON: If a man wants to evade
the senate or of the house of representatives
accepts any office of profit under the Crown,
it he can easily do so !
not being one of the offices of state held
The Hon. S. FRASER: If a man las during the pleasure of the governor-general, 5
nothing to do with the management of a
and the holders of which are by this consti-
tution declared to be capable of being chosen
company it does not matter what interest
and of sitting as members of either house of
he has.
the parliament, or accepts any pension pay-
Question-That the words proposed by able out of any of the revenues of the com- 10
Mr. Glynn be added to the clause-put.
monwealth during the pleasure of the Crown,
The Committee divided :
his place shall thereupon become vacant, and
no person holding any such office, except as
Ayes, 7 ; noes, 26; majority, 19. aforesaid, or holding or enjoying any such
AYES.
pension, shall be capable of being chosen or 15
Cockburn, Dr. J. A.
of sitting as a member of either house of the
Walker, J. T.
Dobson, H.
TV ise, B. R.
parliament.
Holder, F. W.
Teller,
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
Kingston, C. C.
Glynn, P. M.
bly of Victoria:
Line 3, after “office," insert "except that of
Noes.
a justice of the high court."
Barton, E.
Howe, J, H.
Briggs, H.
Isaacs, I. A.
Mr. WISE: Would it not be preferable,
Brown, N. J.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G. sir, to put first the amendment suggested
Brunker, J. N. Lyne, W. J.
by the Legislative Council of New South
Crowder, T. T. O'Connor, R. E.
Wales—to omit the second paragraph-
Deakip, A.
Quick, Dr. J.
Douglas, A.
Solomon, V. L.
because it includes the less amendment
Forrest, Sir J.
Symon, J. H.
suggested by the Legislative Assembly
Fraser, S.
Tren with, W. A. of Victoria ? If the paragraph is struck
Gordon, J. H.
Venn, H. W.
out-
Grant, C. H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
Hackett, J. W.
The CHAIRMAN: If it is decided that
Henning, A. H.
Teller,
the words shall stand, we can put it.
Higgins, H. B. Downer, Sir J. W.
This amendment comes first. We cannot
Question so resolved in the negative. amend the paragraph if the Committee
Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. decide that these words shall stand. The
Clause 47 (paragraph 4). Any person being a
object is to perndrit of a member of parlia-
member of the senate or of the house of repre- ment acting as a justice of the high court.
sentatives who, directly or indirectly, accepts or
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the amend-
receives any fee or honorarium for work done or
services rendered by him for or on behalf of the
went is agreed to it will make the clause
commonwealth, whilst sitting as such member,
read as follows :
shall thereupon vacate his place.
If a member of the senate or of the house of
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council representatives accepts any office-except that
of New South Wales :
of a justice of the high court-of profit under
Omit the paragraph.
the Crown.
Amendment negatived; paragraph agreed It seems to me a very strange and clumsy
to; clause, as amended, agreed to.
proposal. It seems that if a person accepts
[The Hon. S. Fraser
Commonwealth of
1029
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
are
any office of profit under the Crown his doing indirectly of that which it forbids
seat will become vacant; but if he accepts to be done directly-it is not a desirable
the office of a justice of the high court he thing to insert in any constitution, simply
shall still hold his seat. I think that must because it is a matter of legislation, and a
be a mistake-an inadvertence.
matter for which the commonwealth has:
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South to provide itself. Will hon members re-
Australia) (10.6]: Apart altogether from collect that we refused to insert the sug-
the question of the phraseology of the gested new clause of the Tasmanian Par-
clause, which can be altered by the Draft- liament to the effect that a member of a
ing Committee, what is meant can be house of the parliament of a state should
easily understood, and I am strongly
and I am strongly be incapable of sitting in either house
opposed to it. I do not see for what
of the parliament of the commonwealth,
reason there should be an exception in and that the ground of our refusal was
favour of a gentleman who is chosen as the that it was not our province to encumber
justice of the high court, and no exception the constitution with a body of laws for
made in favour of gentlemen who the commonwealth, which certainly ought
chosen to other offices.
to be more competent than we to make
Mr. Wise : The proper course is to laws for itself? When we remember that
strike out the second paragraph altogether; that was the reason why we refused to in-
that is what is intended !
sert a provision of that kind, how much
Mr. Higgins : The first paragraph is all more strongly does such a reason apply
right, and it ought to apply to judges ! here? The other case was one in which
Mr. WISE: Exactly; negative the amend-
there might be some show or reason for
inent!
saying that it was a constitutional pro-
Amendment negatived ; paragraph 1
vision. Who can say, however, that this
agreed to.
is anything else but a mere matter of law
Clause 48 (paragraph 2). Until the parlia- a' mere matter of deciding in what way
ment otherwise provides, no person, being a
the commonwealth should deal with the
member, or within six months of his ceasing to
be a member, shall be qualified or permitted to
position of its own members in relation
acceptor hold any office the acceptance or holding to the acceptance of a certain office. One
of which would, under this section, render a per- can understand that a person accepting
son incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a
an office of profit under the Crown should
a member.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
yacate his seat; but to say that no person
of New South Wales :
being a member, or within six months of
That paragraph 2 be omitted.
his ceasing to be a member, should be
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South qualified or permitted to accept or hold
Wales) [107]: I am in favour of the any office, the acceptance of or holding of
amendment of the Legislative Council of which would render him incapable of being
New South Wales. We had considerable chosen or of sitting as a member, means this:
debate about this matter in Adelaide, and The disqualification which would attach
we had a narrow division. I think some to him as a member is prolonged against
of those who voted in that division after- him after he ceases to be a member. Now
wards regretted their vote. I do not that cannot be a question relating to the
wish to reiterate the strong arguments constitution. It is not a constitutional
which were used against this provision in provision at all.
provision at all. It may find its place in
Adelaide. It is enough to say that it is the body of laws the commonwealth may
a kind of provision which leads to the make, and it may be that the common-
1.030
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
to do so.
wealth should make a law on the subject. The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST:
But if it be granted that it is necessary,
Does it exist in South Australia?
as well as right, that the commonwealth The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Yes, not
should make a law on the subject, that is by statute but by resolution of the House,
not the slighest reason for putting it in and I think the right hon. gentleman will
the constitution.
find that it will be desirable to have a
An Hon. MEMBER: Is it not the law in similar law in the colony of Western Aus-
some of the colonies now?
tralia. It is a most wholesome provision,
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes, they have and the reasons for it are patent to every
made laws on the subject. What I say is body. During the first session of parlia-
that it may be a proper thing for the com- ment the commonwealth cannot exercise
monwealth to make a law on the subject, any control whatever over the actions of
but that is no reason why we should make the government, and as I said before, the
a law to bind the commonwealth on the only fault I have to find is that the inter-
subject. We ought to get rid of encum-
regnum is too short.
bering provisions of this sort. If the com- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
monwealth chooses to legislate on the sub- (Western Australia)[10:14] : I can see that
ject, let it, but it is not for us to compel it this provision might act injuriously. Some
of the very best men whom you might
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South require to fill high public offices might be
Australia) [10:12]: I think the provision members of parliament, and under this
is one which ought to stand.
There is no
clause the area of selection would be re-
relation between this question and the stricted. My experience has not been
question we discussed and settled with re- very great, but it has been sufficient to
gard to dual membership--membership in show me that a government has no great
the federal house and membership in the desire to give their friends in parliament
state house. In that case there was no public positions, as by doing so they would
question of the purity of parliament; the
weaken their support.
purity of the motives animating the mem- The Hon. J. H. GORDON : But they
bers of the federal parliament could not could bribe their enemies, which would
arise. But this is a question directly be worse still!
affecting the purity of parliament. The The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
only fault I have to find is that the inter- I do not think we need make this provision
regnum of six months is too short. I think at the present time. If the federal par-
it ought to be twelve months.
liament likes to make the provision, let it
The Hon. E. BARTON: Make it ten do so. I think that, especially in the early
years!
days of the commonwealth, it would be
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: There is unwise to restrict the area of selection
reason in all things, and I think twelve especially in regard to judicial offices. I
months a reasonable period. I think in all do not want to say anything in favour of
the colonies this provision prevails.
legal members of parliament; they can
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : generally do far more than take care of
No!
themselves; but it occurs to me that some
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: In nearly of the most experienced and able lawyers
all the colonies and in all the colonies that in these colonies are to be found in mem-
have had long experience of responsible bers of parliament. No one will deny
government.
that, and in the early days of the common-
!
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [21 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 10:31
So,
do so.
wealth I should be sorry to see this clausė and the Agent-General I see no reason why
find a place in the constitution. As time it should not be applied also to these
goes on it may be found necessary; if latter officials under the commonwealth. It
the federal parliament can legislate as may ought to be applied altogether or not at all.
be found desirable.
I said to myself, “If you apply this to a
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia)[10:16]:
man who is an expert draftsman, or to a
I am inclined to move that the words " or surveyor who has been in parliament, it
within six months of ceasing to be a mem- ought to apply to any other functionaries
ber" be struck out. If members wish to whatever. I cannot draw any line. If
strike out the whole paragraph they can you can draw any line between the two
classes I will give way." I felt in that
An HON. MEMBER ; Strike it out alto-
difficulty ; but I have come to this conclu-
gether!
sion : that it ought not to apply to any
Mr. GLYNN : If that be the wish of official, because the chances of log-rolling
the Convention I will not make any pro-
are so infinitesimal. Is it likely, as the
posal, but I would say this : that in the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest said, that
opening of a commonwealth parliament it
the government would give a good billet
is not likely that any member of the
to one of its supporters and get him out
of the house ? I could understand a
ministry would be bribed out of it, and in
the filling of a judicial office the govern-
government giving a billet to a person in
consideration of future services; but when
ment would not be likely to go to members
of the opposition.
you are dealing with past services it is
quite a different matter.
The Hon. E. BARTON : That is just where
they would go !
An Hon. MEMBER: They might want to
get rid of a dangerous opponent!
Mr. GLYNN: I was about to say that
at the opening of the parliament for twelve Mr. HIGGINS: It has been said, in the
months or two years it is not likely that
case of the Victorian parliament, that a cer-
there would be any opposition or govern-
tain gentleman was made Agent-General,
ment party. The opposition, therefore,
because he was a dangerous opponent;
would not exist from which any choice
but I would ask the hon. gentleman, Mr.
could be made.
Holder, whether the danger of that occur-
:: Mr.HIGGINS(Victoria)[10-17]: Ivoted ring is so great that we ought in this con-
stitution to provide against it, having
in favour of this clause last time, and no
regard to the way in which you hamper the
subject has given me greater trouble in
selection on the part of the government?
deciding how to vote this time than has
this particular clause. What I feel is
Mr. WALKER : It will drive good men
this: that the object is to prevent politi- out of parliament !
cal appointments. At the same time the Mr. HIGGINS: I do not think it will.
danger is infinitesimal as compared with Honestly, I think that when it comes to a
the advantage of having a free selection; mere question of chance one way or the
and that is where I feel myself in a diffi- other, a man who wants to serve his coun-
culty. I voted last time in favour of this try will do so in spite of this clause, no
provision, because I said to myself, “ What matter what may happen. I was anxious
is sauce for the goose is sauce for the to hear further argument on the clause be-
gander," and if you apply this rule in fore dealing with it. As matters at pre-
Victoria to all officials other than judges sent stand, I must say that the inconveni-
.1032
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.1
to us.
ences are so great to my mind as to over- being made a stepping-stone; and I hope
ride a possible corrupt case, and, therefore, that we shall not be unwilling to take that
that I shall vote against the clause. action now the opportunity presents itself
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South
I hope the Committee will deter-
Australia) (10.21]: I did not intend to mine to keep within the four corners of
the bill the clause that was inserted at
repeat what I said at Adelaide ; but it
appears to be necessary to point out one
Adelaide on this question.
or two things. The object of those who
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
support the clause is to prevent parlia South Wales) [10-24]: There is one view
ment from being made a stepping-stone to of this matter wlich appears to have been
some permanent government office, and lost sight of in this argument—that is, the
that we should prevent parliament being interest of the public itself. It is all very
made such a stepping-stone is, I think, well to say that we should not make par-
very necessary. I think it is better to re- liament a stepping-stone to these offices;
move even the possibility of mischief rather but suppose that it is in the interest of
than to grieve afterwards when mischief the country that these appointments should
has been done, because we cannot cure
be conferred on particular men who hap-
it. I want to put this point in answer to pen to be in parliament, are the hands of
the argument of the hon. and learned the commonwealth to be tied so that it
leader of the Convention, which seemed shall not have the opportunity of appoint-
to be a very weighty argument. He said, ing the best men simply because they hap-
Why not leave the matter to parliament? pen to be in parliament?
pen to be in parliament ? An answer to
Was there, under ordinary circumstances, that argument may be, we are so afraid to
any reason for such a step as we propose trust parliament, so afraid to trust the
to take?” Under ordinary circumstances, ministry for the time being, so afraid to
I think that parliament might very well trust those distinguished men who may be
be left to take care of itself in this mat- appointed to some professional office, either
ter, and under ordinary circumstances, I judicial or engineering office, or some office
would be content to leave Parliament to of that kind, that we must embed in this
pass such legislation dealing with this constitution a provision which may pro-
question as it thought fit; but, as I put bably, in time to come, narrow the selec-
it in Adelaide, I now put before hon. mem- tion of the best men for high public offices.
bers this consideration : Almost immedi- That is a supposition that public criti-
ately the commonwealth comes into exist. cism, the capacity for smelling out jobs,
ence, there will have to be appointed four the ingenuity which is displayed in dis-
justices o fthe high court, a chief justice, covering any possible corruption that
an agent-general, and—if we retain, as I exists in regard to any great appointment,
hope we shall, the clause providing for an will not exist in the commonwealth parlia-
inter-state commission on railways-three ment as it does here. It cannot be sup-
or four officials, making nine or ten per- posed for a moment that if there is any
sons, who will receive very high salaries corruption in regard to the appointment
and occupy very important offices; and I of a high public officer, such as the com-
think the fact that, before any legislation missioner for railways, or a judicial officer,
can be passed by the commonwealth par. it would not be exposed, and the min-
liament, there will be those nine or ten istry which made it held
istry which made it held up to opprobrium.
offices to fill, demands some action at our If the person most fitted for the office
lands that would prevent parliament from happens to be in parliament, why should
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of
1033
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
he not, in the interests of the public, be matters. I think that provision is un-
appointed, even though he may be the worthy of the constitution, unnecessary,
supporter, or a dangerous and incon- and against the public interest.
venient opponent, of a party? The main The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria)
consideration is surely the public interest, [1029]: I am perfectly satisfied that the
and considering the large trust which we executive of a new commonwealth would
are placing in the federal parliament, and never commence its career by appointing
the enormous powers which we have given incapable men. Therefore, there is no
them in every direction, we may fairly necessity for the clause.
necessity for the clause. I could easily
allow them to administer these matters
name men against whom no colony could
subject to the criticism of an opposition, make the slightest objection. The sphere
and under the eyes of the press and public. of selection is very wide, because there are
It is to this criticism that we must look
so many men in the six colonies to choose
for the maintenance of the purity of par- from.
liament.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
An HON. MEMBER : Is there not a pro-
(South Australia) [10-30]: Although there
vision of this kind in all the constitutions ? is a great deal in favour of the suggestion
that this should be left to the federal par-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No.
liament to deal with as they please, the
That, to my mind, would be no reason
why it should be placed in this constitu-
clause is only of a tentative character. It
tion. There is no such provision in the
says that until the parliament otherwise
New South Wales law.
provides this shall be the rule. Now, what
is the position? That during the first
Mr. LYNE : I think that a resolution
session of parliament, before in the natural
was passed by the Assembly on the sub-
order of things the federal parliament will
ject, though I am not certain. I think it
be called upon to deal with general ques-
was passed after the late Sir Henry Parkes
tions, a large amount of patronage will
appointed Mr. Thompson to a position,
require to be exercised, much more than
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Such a
at any other stage of the federal history,
resolution may have been passed; but I
because, of course, the various departments
do not remember it. It is no argument
and establishments will have to be set up.
in favour of this provision that one house
All that this clause says is that at that
passed a resolution which no subsequent period, when this protection is most re-
parliament thoughtof sufficient importance quired, unless the federal parliament pro-
to embody in an enactment.
vides otherwise that shall be the rule. If
The Hon. E. BARTON: Such a resolu-
they do provide otherwise, they can do as
tion could only govern the house that
they please. But if we err at all it is on
passed it!
the side of safety, throwing around the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Yes, of proceedings of the federal executive a cer-
.
It is the interests of the public tain safeguard which can be removed at
which we have to consider in this matter. the pleasure of parliament. But until re-
If we wish to leave the selection of these moved it will prevail for the good of the
high officers as unfettered as possible, we community.
should trust the federal parliament, and Question—That paragraph 2 stand part
leave it to the ordinary operations of the
of the clause-put.
The Committee
criticism of the opposition and of the press
divided :
to see that purity is observed in these Ayes, 10 ; noes, 19; majority, 9.
course.
4 C
1034
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[21 SEPT., 1897.]
Teller,
AYES,
cause if the rule is good in the case I men-
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Kingston, C. C.
tioned I think it ought to be applied all
Downer, Sir J. W. Lyne, W. J.
round.
Grant, C. H.
Solomon, V. L.
Holder, F. W.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Howe, J. H.
Wales) [10:38]: I quite appreciate what
Isaacs, I. A.
Gordon, J. E.
my hon. and learned friend has said, and
NOES.
practically it comes to this: we have not
Barton, E.
Higgins, H. B.
Briggs, H.
Lee-Steere, Sir J. G. thought it well in this constitution to make
Brown, N. J.
O'Connor, R. E.
penal provisions, and therefore, with regard
Brunker, J. N. Quick, Dr. J.
to the one man one vote question, we have
Crowder, F. T. Symon, J. H.
left out the words about a misdemeanour;
Deakin, A.
Venn, H. W.
Dobson, H.
Walker, J.T.
and the words of punishment that follow
Forrest, Sir J.
Wise, B. R.
it. Having done that I think it is quite
Fraser, s.
Teller,
consistent that we should leave matters of
Glynn, P. M.
Hackett, J. W.
penalties to be provided for by the laws of
Question so resolved in the negative.
the commonwealth. I quite accept the
Paragraph agreed to; clause, as amended, suggestion of my hon. friend ; but as we
agreed to.
will be adjourning in two minutes I will
The CHAIRMAN : The next suggestion is ask him to leave the matter to the Draft-
made by the Legislative Council of New ing Committee. I will make a suggestion
South Wales; but, inasmuch as it involves
to the Drafting Committee to reduce this
a question already decided by the Com-
clause to a simple prohibition, so that the
mittee, I will not put it. It is a suggestion law of the commonwealth may provide a
to insert a new clause after clause 48.
penalty afterwards.
Clause 49. If any person by this constitution Clause agreed to.
declared to be incapable of sitting in the senate
Clause 50. Until the Parliament otherwise
or the house of representatives, or disqualified or
provides, all questions of disputed elections
prohibited from accepting or holdiog any office,
arising in the senate or the house of representa-
sits as a member of either house, or accepts or
tives shall be determined by a federal court or a
holds such office, he shall, for every day on
court exercising federal jurisdiction,
which he sits or holds such office, be liable to
pay the sum of one hundred pounds to any
The CHAIRMAN: On this clause two
person who may sue for it in any court of amendments are suggested by the Legisla-
competent jurisdiction.
tive Council of New South Wales ; but
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) (10.371: I desire inasmuch as they relate to a matter already
to draw attention to the provision which decided, namely, the question of federal
the clause makes for a penalty. At an dominion, I will not put them. The Legis-
earlier stage of the bill a provision pro- lative Assembly of New South Wales, the
viding for a penalty for a breach of the House of Assembly of South Australia, and
law against plural voting was said to be a the Legislative Council and House of As-
blot on the bill, and was struck out. In sembly of Tasmania also. suggest that the
this clause, not only is an offence created, clause should be left out. It involves the
but a penalty is also oreated in the consti- same question as has been decided.
tution. If the Committee was right in The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
striking out the penalty against plural Wales) [10:40]: In that case I would ask
voting, I apprehend that this penalty the Committee to leave the clause stand-
should also be struck out and the clause ing for the present, as it is intimately con-
be reconstructed, providing for a simple nected with clauses 21 and 43, and I think
prohibition against doing certain acts; be- also with clause 32. The Drafting Com-
Commonwealth of
1035
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
mittee were asked to take the clauses into
consideration together, which they mean
to do. We shall deal with it probably in
some form on Friday afternoon.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 51. The senate and the house of repre-
sentatives may each of them from time to time
adopt standing rules and orders as to the follow-
ing matters :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
[10:41]: Would it be better to strike out
the word “standing" so that we may
adopt "rules and orders”? I do not know
how far the insertion of the word "stand-
ing” might cause a limitation. If we
omit the word we shall provide for the
adoption of sessional orders, or standing
orders, or any other kind of rules and orders.
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think the word
might as well be omitted ; there will still
be the same power or more.
Amendment (Hon. I. A. ISAACS) agreed
to :
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
In Committee (consideration resumed from
21st September, vide page 1035):
Clause 52. The parliament shall, subject to
the provisions of this constitution, have full
power and authority to make laws for the
peace, order, and good government of the
commonwealth, with respect to all or any of 5
the matters following, that is to say :-
1. The regulation of trade and commerce
with other countries, and among the
several states;
2. Customs and excise and bounties, but so 10
that duties of customs and excise and
bounties shall be uniform throughout the
commonwealth, and that no tax or duty
shall be imposed on any goods exported
from one state to another;
15.
3. Raising money by any other mode or sys-
tem of taxation ; but so that all such tax-
ation shall be uniform throughout the
commonwealth ;
4. Borrowing money on the public credit of 20
the commonwealth ;
5. Postal, telegraphic, telephonic, and other
like services;
6. The military and naval defence of the
commonwealth and the several states and 23
the calling out of the forces to execute
and maintain the laws of the common-
wealth ;
7. Munitions of war ;
8. Navigation and shipping;
30
9. Ocean beacons and buoys, and ocean
lighthouses and lightships;
10. Astronomical and meteorological obser-
vations ;
11. Quarantine ;
35.
12. Fisheries in Australian waters beyond
territorial limits ;
13. Census and statistics ;
14. Currency, coinage, and legal tender ;
15. Banking, the incorporation of banks, and 40
the issue of paper money ;
16. Insurance, excluding state insurance not
extending beyond the limits of the state
concernedl;
17. Weights and measures ;
45
18. Bills of exchange and promissory-notes ;
19. Bankruptcy and insolvency ;
20. Copyrights and patents of inventions,
designs, and trade-marks ;
21. Naturalisation and aliens ;
.50
22. Foreign corporations, and trading or
financial corporations formed in any state
or part of the commonwealth ;
23. Marriage and divorce;
That the word "standing” be omitted.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
Wales) [10:42]: I move:
That the Chairman leave the chair, report
progress, and ask leave to sit again to-morrow.
I may state that tomorrow we shall have
to deal with clauses 52 and 53. From that
point—with the exception of clause 69—
we have dealt with all the intervening
clauses until after the end of Chapter II.
Our next work, after dealing with clauses
52 and 53, will be with Chapter III
relating to the federal judicature.
Motion agreed to ; progress reported.
Convention adjourned at 10:43 p,m.
1
WEDNESDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
.
Commonwcalth of Australia Bill-Darling and Munay
Rivers-Adjournment.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10:30
a.m.
1036
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
55 24. Parental rights, and the custody and The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
guardianship of infants ;
Wales) [10:32]: This is an amendment
25. The service and execution throughout
which was made in the legislature of Tas-
the commonwealth of the civil and
criminal process and judgments of the
mania at the instance of the Hon. A. I.
60 courts of the states ;
Clark. That gentleman has furnished
26. The recognition throughout the com-
these reasons for the amendment, and,
monwealth of the laws, the public acts
and records, and the judicial proceed perhaps, in justice to him, I ought to read
them :
ings, of the states ;
65 27. Immigration and emigration ;
These words are copied from the several acts
28. The influx of criminals ;
of the Imperial Parliament providing for the
29. External affairs and treaties;
establishment of legislatures in the various Aus-
30. The relations of the commonwealth to tralian colonies, and are perfectly appropriate
the islands of the Pacific :
when used in reference to the establishment of
70 31. The control and regulation of the navi- the legislature which is to possess plenary legis-
gation of the river Murray, and the use lative powers, and have unlimited jurisdiction
of the waters thereof from where it first
on all questions relating to the protection of life
forms the boundary between Victoria
and property, and the enforcement of contrac-
and New South Wales to the sea ;
tual rights of every kind; but it is very
75 32. The control of railways with respect to doubt'ul if they ought to find a place in con-
transport for the military purposes of nection with the definition and delegation of
the cominonwealth.
limited legislative powers which do not in-
33. The taking over by the commonwealth, clude matters relating to the daily protec-
with the consent of the state, of the tion of life and property, or to enforcement
:80 whole or any part of the railways of any of private rights and obligations in general.
state or states upon such terms as may It is true that they find a place in the 91st scc-
be arranged between the commonwealth tion of the British North America Act, which
and the state.
establishes a federal convention for Canada; but
34. Railway construction and extension with
the primary object of that act is to limit the
85 the consent of any state or states con- powers and jurisdiction of the provincial legis-
cerned.
latures, and to vest the residuum of legislative
35. Matters referred to the parliament of
authority in the Dominion of Canada in the
the cominonwealth by the parliament or federal parliament. The words in question may,
parliaments of any state or states, but so therefore, fitly find a place in that act, and they
90 that the law shall extend only to the
were relied upon in the case of “The Attorney-
state or states by whose parliament or General of Canada versus the Attorney-General
parliaments the matter was referred, and
of Ontario, which was decided by the Privy
to such other states as may afterwards
Council last year (L.R.A.C. 1896] to uphold the
adopt the law;
act of the Dominion Parliament, which had been
95 36. The exercise within the commonwealth,
challenged on the ground that it had encroached
at the request or with the concurrence of
upon the domain of the provincial legislatures.
the parliaments of all the states con-
That decision, in its effect, appears to me to be
cerneci, of any legislative powers which
can at the establishment of this constitu-
an argument against the insertion of the words
100 tion be exercised only by the Parlia-
in question in connection with the definition and
ment of the United Kingdom or by the
delegation of the legislative powers of the par-
Federal Council of Australasia ;
liament of the commonwealth, because they
37. Any matters necessary for or incidental
might, in some unforeseen and unexpected con-
to the carrying into execution of the
troversy, afford ground for an argument in favour
105 foregoing powers, or of any other powers of the jurisdiction of the parliament of the com-
vested by this constitution in the
monwealth in matters which the several states
parliament or the executive government might claim to be wholly within their own legis-
of the commonwealth, or in any depart- lative powers. It cannot be contended that they
ment or officer thereof.
are required for the purpose of giving the parlia-
Amendment suggested by the House of Assem- ment of the commonwealth full power to legislate
bly of Tasmania :
with regard to all the subjects mentioned in the
Omit the words “for the peace, order, and sub-sections of section 52; and, if they are not
good government of the commonwealth, lines required for that purpose, they must inevitably
3, 4, and 5."
encourage the contention that they are inserted
Commonwealth of
1037
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
for some additional purpose. But, if their in- our saying definitely that their legislation
sertion is not intended to add in any way to the
should be for the peace, order, and good
powers of parliament, in relation to the matters
mentioned in the sub-sections of section 52, then
government of the commonwealth. I hope
they violate the canon of drafting, which requires
the leader of the Convention will give the
that no unnecessary words should be used in matter full consideration with a view to
giving expression to the intention of the legisla- seeing whether these words are not surplus-
ture. They are very properly inserted in section
53, because that section confers upon the parlia-
age, and whether, therefore, they had better
ment of the commonwealth plenary and exclu-
not be left out of the bill altogether.
sive powers in regard to the several matters
The Hon. E. BARTON: The suggestion
mentioned in the sub-section of that section.
But their presence in section 52 tends to create
of the hon. member will be considered by
a resemblance in the scope of the powers con-
the Drafting Committee.
ferred by the two sections, whereas it would be
Amendment negatived.
much more desirable to make the difference in
the purport of each section as apparent and Sub-clause 1. The regulation of trade and
emphatic as possible.
commerce with other countries and among the
several states.
I have read these reasons through very
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
carefully, and I have been unable to dis-
bly of Victoria :
cover that any of the evils which my hon.
Add at end of sub-clause "Provided that all
and learned friend, Mr. Clark, fears may fermented, distilled, or other intoxicating liquors
be expected from leaving thiese words as or liquids transported into any state or territory
or remaining therein for use, consumption, sale,
they are. The powers are powers of legis-
or storage therein, shall upon arrival in such
lation for the peace, order, and good go- state or territory be subject to the operation
vernment of the commonwealth in respect and effect of the laws of such state or territory
to the saine extent and in the same manner as
of the matters specified. No construction
in the world could confer any powers
though such liquors or liquids had been produced
in such state or territory.'
beyond the ambit of those specified.
The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
The Hon. N. E. LEWIS (Tasmania) [10-39]: This is a proposition which lias.
[10:35]: I should like to submit for the
been accepted in substance by all the legis-
consideration of the leader of the Conven- latures, as the leader of the Convention
tion the question whether the words which
will observe. It is different in form in our
the legislature of Tasmania have proposed
case, because it was thought advisable that
to omit might not raise the question the provision should be practically iden-
whether legislation of the federal parlia- tical with that in the American act, to
ment was in every instance for the peace, which reference is made in the margin,
order, and good government of the com- the celebrated Wilson act. I lay no stress
monwealth. Take, for instance, naviga upon the form. The Committee may re-
tion laws. Might it not be contended that gard the proposition as identical with those
certain navigation laws were not for the submitted in the other colonies. I shall
peace, order, and good government of the be quite content if the Drafting Commit-
commonwealth, and might there not be tee will take the matter into consideration
litigation upon the point? We are giving as to which is the superior shape in which
very full powers to the parliament of the to embody the proposal. This amendment
commonwealth, and might we not very is not sought with a view to any extension
well leave it to them to decide whether of the powers of the states, but is proposed
their legislation was for the peace, order, to secure the retention of a power which
and good government of the common- every colony at present enjoys—which
wealth? Surely that is sufficient, without every colony, apparently, desires to con-
1
1038
Australia Bili.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
1
tinue to enjoy. Having cited in Adelaide The Hon. A. DEAKIN : We only omitted
the American decisions, which prove the three words, I think !
necessity for a clause of some kind, unless The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes, in sub-
the merits of the proposition are chal- stance it is the same. The matter coming
lenged, I shall say nothing more on the on for decision again in the case of re
provision now so widely recommended, be- Rahrer in 1890 the Supreme Court of the
yond expressing my entire willingness to United States held that Congress having
leave its form to the Drafting Committee. power to impose those restrictions in re-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) gard to inter-state commerce, and having
[10:41]: I should like to draw the atten- legislated in that direction, it was perfectly
tion of the Committee to the reason for competent to do so. If we do not put in
the necessity of inserting such words if similar words, a subsequent clause 89,
the Committee are desirous that a state saying that inter-state commerce shall be
shall have the power of prohibiting the absolutely free, would prevent even the
--sale of intoxicating liquors within its own commonwealth parliament from making
boundaries. There is one great difference such a provision as is now suggested.
-I might almost call it in this respect a Therefore it is necessary, if we retain clause
fundamental difference between the Con- 89, to insert in the constitution itself some
stitution of the United States and our con- provision such as we now suggest.
stitution as we propose to make it. In The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Would
the United States there is, as we know, your amendment enable a state to prohibit
free-trade between the states. But that can the importation of liquors into that state ?
be stopped at any moment by Congress. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: No. It
Congress has absolute power to-morrow to
would enable the state to make the same
impose duties even as between the states. law, in regard to imported liquors, as it
In the constitution as we propose to make makes in regard to liquors produced with-
it, the commonwealth parliament is not to in its own boundaries, that is all. It
have that power. Now, the question arises would not allow the state to make dis-
in this way in regard to the sale of intoxi- tinctions between liquors produced within
cants : a state in America has no power its own limits and liquors imported from
itself to impose any duties, or to put any abroad. They are put on the same foot-
trammels upon inter-state commerce. Con- ing; there is no preferential law. In
sequently, even in the case of intoxicating the United States a state could say, in
liquors that are brought from another state, regard to its own liquors, without the in-
or from abroad, a state can impose no re- tervention of Congress, “We will not allow
striction upon the sale or commercial inter- the production or the sale of any liquor
course in regard to those liquors so long produced within the state," because that
as they are retained in their original pack-
would not interfere with inter-state com-
ages, and in the hands of the original im-
But a state could not make a law
porters. In the case of Leisey versus Hardin prohibiting the introduction and sale
decided in 1889 by the United States courts, within its own limits of liquor imported
it was held that a state had no such
power. from abroad so long as it remained in the
That decision gave rise to great dissatis- original packages and in the hands of the
faction, and Congress, by passing the Wil- original importers, and Congress passed a
son act of 1890, made a law almost in the law—the Wilson act—applying to liquor
words proposed by the legislature of Vic- that was imported the same provisions as
toria.
applied to liquor made in the state.
merce.
?
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Conimonwealth of
1039
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
I am
Mr. WALKER : Would such a provision Wilson act went to this extent: A state
make people compulsorily total abstainers couldnotprohibit the introduction of liquor
in some states ?
brought from outside, and it could not
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Not neces- prohibit the sale in the original packages
sarily. It would allow the state to put of liquor brought from outside. But there
imported liquor on exactly the same foot- would be nothing whatever to prevent a
ing as liquor made within its own terri- state from making such laws as it thinks
tory
fit for regulating the sale of liquor in the
The Hon. E. BARTON: The greatest dif- ordinary way by retail within its own
ficulty seems to be that you put the finan- boundaries. For instance, there would
ces of the commonwealth into the hands be nothing to prevent any state from
of any state.
adopting a local option law-an extension
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The same of the local option law such as we have
difficulty will arise in regard to excise duty here now. According to the American
on liquor produced within the state itself. decisions, a state would have a perfect
The Hon. E. BARTON : It would ! right to prohibit or to regulate in any way
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New the sale of liquor by retail within its own
South Wales) [10:46]: I think we had boundaries, that is to say, it could for
better leave the clause as it is.
instance pass a local option law.
aware of the decisions to which the hon.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
member, Mr. Isaacs, has referred, and I The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No, not
think they go to this extent: A state is in the original packages certainly ; but it
not allowed to prohibit the introduction of would allow a local option such as we have
liquor to places within its own boundaries, here now; that is to say, it would place
because prohibition of that kind would in the hands of a particular division of
interfere with the free course of trade. the territory power to say whether public-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Unless it im- houses should or should not exist in
poses a similar prohibition on its own that part of the territory. It could regu-
liquors under the power conferred by the late the sale of liquors by imposing a very
Wilson act!
heavy license fee; it could do anything
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Exactly, that amounted to a regulation of the sale
But I am dealing with the question apart so long as it did not prohibit a dealing
from the Wilson act, because, as I under-
with the original packages. Now, it ap-
stand it, the American Constitution stands pears to me, that if you give power of that
Very much in the same position, without kind to a state you quite sufficiently pro-
the Wilson act, as our proposed constitu- vide for any differences there might be
tion does.
between the laws of the different states,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : No; there is and you give full scope to any view there
the distinction that Congress has the may be in the minds of the majority of
power, and we would not have the power! the community with regard to the deal-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I will ing with the consumption of intoxicating
deal with that by-and-by. But, apart liquors.
from the provision as to freedom of trade, The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The Supreme
the Constitution of the United States is Court held that the state legislation could
in exactly the same position in regard to not insist on the law to forbid the sale of
this question as our proposed constitution liquor imported in original packages, and
is. The American decisions before the to sell without license !
A
1040 Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
If you
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: That all these diverse and conflicting interests,
may be so; but, to deal with the thing which an attempt to deal with this ques-
practically, you will hardly have such a tion always arouses in local politics, and
thing as the importation of liquor in single will arouse in federal politics. I do not
bottles. For instance, if a case of brandy mean to say that if it were necessary to
is imported, immediately bulk is broken deal with the question we should not deal
the regulation of the sale comes within the with it; but it is not necessary to deal
powers of the states.
It appears to me with it. The proposal is to deal with the
that we should not embody in the consti- matter in a different way from any other
tution a provision enabling the prohibition kind of trade. It is also pointed out that .
of the introduction of liquor to be made the carrying of the amendment might put
by a state to a greater extent than would the finances of the commonwealth in a
be possible if we left it to the ordinary very serious position. We all know that
exercise of its freedom. Why should this narcotics and intoxicating liquors form the
particular class of goods be treated differ- basis of a very large portion of the tariff
ently from any other ? The amendment in the different colonies, and there is no
says :
doubt that the federal tariff will be very
Intoxicating liquors or liquids transported into largely drawn from this source.
any state or territory.
put it into the power of a state to abso-
There are a number of other liquors and lutely prohibit the introduction of articles
goods of different kinds wluich, if properly of this kind, you put it in the power of
used, might be just as deleterious to the that state to interfere to a very large ex-
public health as this class of goods, and tent with the revenue of the common-
why should we embody in the constitution wealth.
particular legislation in regard to these Mr. SOLOMON : The amendment would
matters? There may be some drugs of a
not interfere with the introduction of
poisonous character in regard to which liquor into a state !
the states will be obliged to legislate. We The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Tho
know that, at the present time, there is in explanation of the hon. and learned mem -
most of the states very stringent legisla- ber, Mr. Isaacs, was that the effect of the
tion regulating the sale of poison. The amendment would be to give a state power
state takes under its control trade of that which it does not possess under the con-
kind for very obvious reasons. If the stitution as it stands, namely, to absolutely
amendment were to apply to the sale of prohibit the introduction of liquor into its
liquors, there would be stronger reasons territory.
for giving the states particular powers to The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : Only if it made
deal with the sale of poisons. There is no the same laws with regard to the liquor
reason in the world why any particular made within its own borders. A state
article, the sale of which the state may could not give itself an advantage over
at any time think fit to regulate within other states !
its own boundaries, should be dealt with The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Of course.
in the constitution differently from other The amendment would give a state the
articles. We ought also to remember right to absolutely prohibit the introduc-
that round the liquor question there has tion of liquor. Under the constitution as
always arisen a great deal of social and it stands, however, a state would have the
political controversy, and why should we, fullest power to regulate this traflic. We
in the inception of the constitution, arouse should not deal specially with a particular
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
1041
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
way to do it!
so!
class of goods, nor should we give the of trade and commerce between different parts
states any larger powers in regard to the
of the commonwealth is not to be restricted
or interfered with by any taxes, charges, or
liquor trade than they would have in
imposts.
regard to other kinds of trade. The hon. .
The Right Hon. G. H. Rrid: That will
and learned member, Mr. Isaacs, stated
bo very dangerous !
that in the United States the federal
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Inasmuch
government had power to deal with this
as the former section, 89, is the only reason
matter ; but, whatever there may be in
his contention, this is a power which should
why parliarnent itself should not deal with
not be dealt with in the constitution. If
it, the better way would be to amend
it could be done, it should be handed over
clause 89, so as to ensure that the parlia-
ment of the commonwealth shall have this
to the federal legislature.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : That is the only
power.
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : That would not
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The only get rid of this difficulty !
thing that prevents the federal govern-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I think
ment from dealing with the question in this
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : No; because
way is the prohibition which may be im-
plied from the clause relating generally to
licenses would be a charge or a tax on the
freedom of trade-clause 89. I have al-
sale of liquor, and that would still prevent
ways thought that the words in that clause a state requiring the vendor of liquor im-
are very much too general. It was pointed ported from another state to have a
out in Adelaide, and having thought over
license !
the matter since, I have come round to the
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : That can
view, that we should state our meaning
be dealt with. I am now only dealing
there inore definitely. There is nothing with the suggested amendment, to show
more dangerous in the constitution than that there is some way of meeting the dif-
vague general words, the meaning of which ficulty. There will be no difficulty in ar-
we do not at present know ourselves. We riving at some amendment of section 89
ought to be very careful not to leave any-
that will make it perfectly clear that the
thing in the constitution which may be
commonwealth parliament will have power
seized upon by-and-by to wrest its mean- by-and-by to make a law to authorise the
ing to something different from what we states to deal in any way they think fit
intended. It seems to me that the clauso with the liquor traffic within their own
as it stands is the only bar to legislation of boundaries. It would be better to negative
the type of the Wilson act being carried the amendment, and leave the matter to be
out by the federal parliament, but the
dealt with in clause 89.
better way would be to so amend the clauso The Hon. A. DEAKIN(Victoria)[11:31:
as to expressly give the federal parliament Having only moved formally the amend-
power to deal with this matter.
ment, I would now ask leave to say a word
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : The only way or two in reply to the criticisms of the hon.
to do that will be to strike out clause 89! member. I quite coincide with his con-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No. An tention, that it is very undesirable to raise
amendment has been suggested which would
in this constitution any question which
make the clause read in this way :
divides public opinion. I am cordially with
So soon as uniform duties of customs have
the hon. member there ; but it is on this
boen imposed by the parliament, the free course account that I have submitted this amend-
רון
1042
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
ment, because the constitution without this The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : What is to
amendment will raise the strongest feeling prevent the federal parliament giving them
among a very large section of the popula- that power?
?
tion who are amongst the most active politi- Mr. WALKER : Will you not bring
cally, and whose antagonism to this measure in a disturbing element with regard to
is to be deprecated. At present the colo- federal finance ?
nies have absolute power to deal with any The Hon. A. DEAKIN: My amend-
liquor imported into the state as they have ment, instead of introducing a question of
absolute power over any liquor produced in discord, provides for leaving the states
the state. My amendment is very carefully exactly as they are ; it will leave the
drawn, so as not to give to the federal par- temperance party and the liquor party
liament any portion of that power which exactly as they are. Now I will come to
the states at present possess, yet not to the second point raised by the hon. mem-
bias any parliament either for or against ber, Mr. O'Connor. Why, then, not leave
the liquor traffic, but to leave each state, this question to the federal parliament !
so far as its liquor traffic is concerned, as Because the transfer to the federal parlia-
autonomous as it is at present. It pro- ment would be a deprivation of the states of
vides the one safeguard that this power their rights with regard to this particular
shall not be capable of being used for pro- question, and those are rights which cer-
tectionist purposes ; enacting that it shall tain states specially cherish. This question
be illegal to deal with imported liquor differs very much in each state. In every
except on exactly the same terms as with colony there is a temperance party and an
the liquor manufactured in the country. opposing party, and the strength of parties,
Getting rid, therefore, of the whole ques- as well as the character of our several
tion of protection and free-trade, you retain liquor laws, varies greatly. In Tasmania,
to the states by this proviso the power as I understand, there is no manufacture
they now have to settle in each state the of spirits. In Victoria and New South
liquor question for themselves. That does Wales there is a considerable manufacture
not raise any issue. By this clause we raise of ardent spirits, and the question of the
the antagonism of neither one section or control of that manufacture is entirely in
the other the temperance party nor the their hands. In other colonies there is, in
other party.
a greater degree than in Tasmania, the
An Hon. MEMBER: If you leave it out question of wine production. Victoria,
New South Wales, South Australia, are
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: If we insert large wine-producing countries, and have
this provisó we leave things exactly as very large interests in that direction. That
they are; but if we leave the draft consti- fact has an important bearing on the ques-
tution as it is, we make a serious alteration, tion. The proposal to remit the whole of
by depriving the states of a power they the liquor question to the federal legisla-
now possess in the interests of one par- ture while an immense improvement on
ticular party. That is to say, the states at the draft bill, does demand from the several
present have a power of restriction which states a concession of their power which
could be used in the interests of temperance. they are very unlikely to grant. It is cer-
The draft constitution, by taking away tainly the next best proposition to my own,
that power, diminishes that power of the but it is not equal to it. The states would
states, and is certain to rouse the antagonism realise that it is much more desirable to
of the temperance party.
regulate their own traffic as they please
you will !
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
1043
[22 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
instead of handing over to this great body ties. As one who endeavours to keep
the power of saying whether or not this abreast of information in regard to the
authority shall be given back to a par- liquor trade in all the colonies, I may state
ticular state. Then there is the third ob- that any prospect of prohibition in any of
jection with regard to the finances. The the colonies of Australasia appears to me
revenue objection would in future have
to be at present extremely remote. It is
much greater effect than now.
It is quite not within our ken as practical politicians
right that we should consider the financial
in any of the colonies.
question now, and we have to do so; but The Hon. H. DOBSON : We ought to
if the federal government have the sole provide for it, ought we not?
power of legislating on the liquor ques- The Hon. A. DEAKIN: So far as I
tion, of course it would be very loth to can judge, the temperance party in Vic-
return to any state this power, if it saw toria is at least as powerful as the temper-
prohibition approaching in that state, be- ance party in any colony, and the temper-
cause that power might be exercised greatly ance party in Victoria, even at present, is
to the detriment of the federal finances. not only unable to carry prohibition, but it
Consequently, those who look forward to has been unable to defeat measures which
restriction of the liquor traffic must be un- have been taken to extend the wine in-
willing to see this power transferred to the dustry, and thus increase the production
federal parliament.
of intoxicating liquors. Consequently, al-
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Would though the possibility is one to be con-
there be any difficulty in the way of any sidered, it is not one of any immediate im-
state enacting a law to deal with the retail minence. If any colony is converted to
disposal of liquor ?
that way of thinking, it is not likely to be
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: I think there for a long time yet.
would be always this difficulty: There are Mr. LYNE: In this colony it is at the
no laws more difficult to administer than present time one of the burning questions!
liquor laws, because while one party in The Hon. A. DEAKIN: It is a burni-
the community strongly supports them, the ing question with us in that sense-in the
other portion of the community do not be- sense that it is essentially a chief question.
lieve that they are conscientiously bound But so far as one can judge, the interests
to obey them. In fact, they regard them rallied against the temperance party, es-
as an interference with liberty, and do not pecially the wine-producinginterests, which
regard a breach of the liquor laws in the are extending, and the interests of those
same way as they regard offences against who are locally engaged in brewing and
other laws. Any loophole will be taken distilling--producing beer and spirits
advantage of, and the cost to any state of are powerful, and, in the case of the wine
administering any restrictive measure in industry, represent growing interests on
regard to the liquor traffic would be im- the other side. It would be very difficult,
mensely increased if there was any such indeed, to carry prohibition in any state
loophole left as this suggestion implies. in which a considerable portion of the
Of course the real question, which the population are engaged in the growing of
leader of the Convention looks at from the produce for the purpose of its manufac-
broadest point of view, is the financial ture into liquor. In the state of Maine,
question. That is, or may be, a serious in America, where prohibition has been
question. Of course here we deal with pos- adopted, no such production is possible
sibilities; we do not deal with probabili- no such difficulties have been encountered.
1044
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Mr. HIGGINS : The temperance party in that, in accepting the amendment, and in
Victoria is alarmed at the experience of leaving the liquor traffic for determina-
the temperance party in America, which tion in each state, according to its own
shows that enactment in the way of the principles or political action, we shall be
prohibition of the sale of liquor is uncon- acting wisely for the federation, and in the
stitutional.
interests of the federal constitution, which
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is so. must be submitted to the whole body of
But the hon. member will notice that the the electors.
position is somewhat different. Practically, The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
all these colonies can be and are likely to South Wales) [11:15]: I think this is one
be wine producing, and the creation of that of those subjects to which the public
great industry is an argument for those attach very great importance, and upon
who consider that if any further temper- which we are not likely, on the present
ance restrictions are likely to be imposed occasion, to come to a final determination.
they are scarcely likely to take the form of I notice that the division in Adelaide was
prohibition. I do not wish to labour the so close that there was simply a difference
issue. My answer to the financial difficulty of one in regard to dealing with matters
is briefly this : that it has been confronted of this kind.
in the United States. The state of Maine The Hon. A. DEAKIN: And since then
is practically a prohibition state. There it has been recommended by every legis-
are also one or two prohibition states in the lature !
west. Altogether some half-dozen of them The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Yes ;
have so greatly restricted the traffic as to but that does not affect the remark I am
be capable of being referred to as prohibi- about to make. In view of the close divi-
tion states ; and yet, so far as I have been sion on that occasion; in view of the fact
able to follow it, the question of revenue that the Convention will meet under widely
has not prevailed in the United States as different circumstances in two or three
against the question of principle. Prohi- months, when the whole of the represen-
bition is an important step, and might tatives will be present, I would ask the
lead to a readjustment of the federal tax- leader of the Convention whether it is
ation, not necessarily so; but I fail to see advisable for us, under existing circum-
why a prohibition which is practically re- stances, to get into very debatable matter
mote, and which has been encountered and upon which opinions will be very uncer-
its difficulties solved in the United States,
tain in the next Convention! It seems to
notwithstanding the question of revenue, me that there is a sort of an air of un-
should operate as a bar to our allowing reality about a vote, under existing circum-
the states to retain to themselves all the stances, on matters of this kind, and that
powers in this connection which they at we might do a great deal more useful work
present possess. Important as the question by giving the “go by " to the more serious
of revenue is, it must yield to the convic- points upon which there will inevitably be
tions and principles of the great body of further consideration, and going on with
the electors. Under those circumstances, matters to which such remarks do not
the extremely temperate and able criti- apply. With regard to the matter before
cisms which the hon. and learned mem- u3, I think we all agree that the bill does
ber, Mr. O'Connor, has offered in regard not, in any sense, take away from the
to this proposal have not affected me so states the right of controlling the consump-
fully as his arguments usually do. I submit tion of intoxicating liquors; but there is,
3
The Hon. A. Deakin.
Commonwealth of
1045
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australic Bill.
cuss it.
at the same time, I admit, this difficulty : words. Therefore, I think we might let
that under the bill there will probably be this matter drop at present, with the un-
a right of free invitation of intoxicating derstanding that words will be inserted in
drinks into a colony from another colony, clause 89 by the Drafting Committee,
although, at the same time, there will making the matter clear. I think that
be a power in that colony to pass laws will save any further discussion, and there
to prevent the consumption of those will be no necessity to take a vote now.
drinks.
If it were seriously proposed by any one
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: More or less in this Convention to limit the rights of
power to prevent !
the different colonies in the important
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: I quite matter of the liquor traffic, it would amount
see the difficulty, and I think it is one to a new departure altogether, and a new
that perhaps ought to be dealt with, and departure of such a serious nature that
from that point of view I admit myoriginal I do not think we are prepared to dis-
remark fails, because I think we must all
admit in spite of the close division in Ade-. The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : No one
laide, that it was always the intention to advocates that!
leave to the different communities their The Right Hon. G. H. REID: No; I
powers of regulating the consumption of am sure they do not. Therefore, I do not
intoxicating liquors. I admit that remark
see any great gravity in the discussion.
disposes of my preliminary remarks as to We all admit that the states are to pre-
whether this should orshould not be looked serve this right. If they are to preserve
upon as a matter of serious discussion. I this right, it is a mere matter of drafting
think we can treat it really, not as a mat- to see that it is recognised in some part of
ter of that kind, but as a matter for the the bill. We may well,
We may well, without any divi-
insertion of words in clause 89, which will sion, let the matter stand over until the
make it perfectly clear that we are not Drafting Committee insert words some-
taking away from the states any of their where which will raise the point. Then it
rights in dealing with intoxicating liquors. will be for those who wish to limit the
But what those words should be would be hitherto understood rights of the states to
a matter for very serious consideration. govern their own liquor traffic, to incur the
No doubt our friends on the Drafting Com- responsibility of such an innovation, to
mittee will settle that difficulty, and will show reasons to the Convention why we
probably settle it as experienced states- should introduce it.
men, so that nothing in the clause is to be The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
taken to affect the powers of the states Wales) [11.20] : I see the difficulty of
with reference to their expressing the very this matter quite as much as my right
words we mean. Instead of general words- hon. friend who has just spoken, but I
because general words would be very danger- think he will find that the difficulty is
ous, I think, in a case of that kind—it would just as great in the hands of the Draft-
be better to insert precise words showing ing Committee as in the hands of this
exactly what we intend. If we insert such Committee.
words as “taxes, rates, and imposts," we The Right Hon. G. H. REID : It could
do not know what meaning may be after- bring the question up in a better form!
wards twisted into them. My intention is a The Hon. E. BARTON: No one wants
precise one, and I think the Drafting Com- to restrict the states in their right to deal
mittee will be able to put it in precise with the consumption of intoxicating
1046
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
liquors. The difficulty that arises is this: it can to overcome the difficulty; but, apart
if we give them the right of practically from that, on the perfect understanding
taxing the importation of intoxicating that this question will be fully discussed
liquors-for that is what it may come to and dealt with at the meeting in Mel-
there will probably be a serious derange- bourne.
bourne. On that understanding I think
ment of the federal finance. On the other we might pass on.
hand, short of doing that, it is very difficult The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
to see how the full rights we want to secure South Wales)[11.25]: The hon. and learned
to them can be exercised. That is a difficulty member will make a very serious mistake
not only of drafting, but a difficulty that if he asks the Convention to negative this
may well tax the energies and ingenuity of proposal in order that the matter may be
the Convention itself. I quite agree with my reconsidered later on. Federation has
right hon. friend who has just spoken that quite enough enemies, without creating
it would be well not to take anything like any more. We should not allow a division
a decision upon this matter at the present to be taken, or a course to be adopted,
meeting. We have to meet again in Mel- which will only give strength to the oppo-
bourne, and this is a matter which is worth nents of federation. This matter is looked
ample discussion, because I think it will
upon as a matter of morals against money.
be only upon that discussion that anything Men hold very strong opinions on the
will be evolved which will give the Draft- subject, and I feel quite sure that if this
ing Committee a reasonable guide as to the amendment is rejected, people will not
manner in which the Convention thinks look to the motives which led to its rejec-
this matter can be solved. One cannot tion; they will not analyse the speech of
repeat too often, perhaps, that it seems the hon. and learned member, and take it
impossible to overrate the difficulty of that the rejection is merely one to gain
settling it in such a way as is just and fair time, and to give the Drafting Committee
to the federal finance, and at the same an opportunity to do their work; but they
time does not in any way impair the rights will look upon it as a principle, and you
of the several states. I think the difficulty will place in active opposition to the
is much greater here than in America, scheme of federation the whole of the tem-
The state in America is one in forty-six, perance parties in the various colonies.
and not one in six, as we propose. The Now, can we afford to do that? We are
effect of that is that the proportion in not asking here to impose any system of
which the federal parliament can be de- local option or prohibition in the constitu-
ranged or disturbed by the action of a state tion. We are simply asking to maintain
with reference to matters of this kind is that liberty of the subject and of the state
very much smaller than the proportion in which they already enjoy. The argument
which the federal finance would be dis- against that is that the federal state must
turbed by the action of any one of the have money. On the other hand, the
three or four states out of the proposed advocates of this amendment say that
union. So that the question becomes a morals stand above money ; that the states
much more serious one in its financial rela- have the right to pass laws which they
tions than it would be in America. I am believe will have a good moral effect upon
going to ask the Committee to negative the community. I ask the hon. and learned
these amendments pro forma on the per- member, so that his motives may not be
fect understanding, in the first instance, mistaken, so that the work of the Conven-
that the Drafting Committee will do what tion may not be mistaken, not to postpone
.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill. 1047
a decision on this question, but to affirm The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : I under-
the principle, and, having done so, leave stand that we are to have a sort of formal
the Drafting Committee, during the next meeting on Friday to consider the drafts-
few months, to prepare for our next meet- men's amendments, at which it will only
ing in Melbourne a clause which will be necessary to have a quorum ; but, if
practically give effect to the proposition the draftsmen's amendments are going to
carried, and safeguard those interests consist in some cases of propositions we
which they deem should be safeguarded. have negatived, propositions in direct an-
I hope, therefore, the Committee will tagonism to large votes in the Convention,
affirm the principle which has been recom-
then I think we shall want much more
mended by every one of the parliaments. than a quorum on Friday, and that we
We should be flouting the parliaments shall have much more than a few hours '
and the people if we now refused their formal work to do.
request to consider this matter, and we The Hon. E, BARTON: This is more
should be putting ourselves in a false posi- than a question of draftsmanship. It is
tion if we negatived a provision which I a question for the Convention; and it is a
believe is in accord with the principles of question with which, as it is composed at
a large majority of the Convention itself.
present, and with the time at its disposal,
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South the Convention cannot fairly deal.
Australia) [11.27]: I rose at an earlier
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : With the
stage to speak on this matter, but after-
first remark of the leader of the Conven-
wards the hon. and learned member, Mr.
tion I thoroughly agree, and I was pro-
Deakin, put so very ably some of the points ceeding to argue that it was not a question
I was thinking about, that I deemed it
for the Drafting Committee at all. That
unnecessary for me to say a word. How-
was the first suggestion made to us—that
ever, there are two suggestions now made
it should be left to the Drafting Commit-
with which I wish to deal. The first is
tee. The other suggestion is that we should
that this proposal should be negatived, so
leave it to the Drafting Committee, and
that the whole matter may be left to the
that we should negative the whole thing,
Drafting Committee to prepare a clause
and leave it to the Melbourne sitting. Is
giving practical effect to what is suggested
that a proper way to treat the various
here. If I understand the work that the
proposals that have been made as sugges-
Drafting Committee is likely to do, it is
tions to this Convention ?
to give effect not to propositions which we
The Hon. E. BARTON: That was done
negative, but to propositions which we
in regard to other things, because it was
carry, and if, after we negative this, the
Drafting Committee bring up a proposal impossible to get through the bill at this
meeting!
giving effect to it, I shall be personally
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER : I think
very much surprised.
The Hon. E. BARTON : It is the same
we had better close at once if we are going
to do that in regard to anything in which
course that is taken when you recommit a
there is a dispute.
bill for the purpose of making an amend-
ment. You then negative the proposal at
An Hon. MEMBER : If hon. gentlemen
the beginning, not because you are opposed would not talk, we would soon settle these
to it, but because you want to pass on to
matters!
other matters in the bill, intending after- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: That
wards to recommit it.
would be a very simple method !
$
1048
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT. 1897.]
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: If we are shall have put up several greater barriers
going to consider nothing but matters about than were there before between these
which there is no difference of opinion, we people and the accomplishment of an ob-
had all better sit still, and let the Chairman ject which they see just ahead, but which
put clause by clause, and the sooner we get I quite agree with the hon, member, Mr.
to the end the better, and about half an Deakin, is further off than they think.
hour will do it. But I understand we are Do not let us alienate their sympathies
going to consider, as fairly and as fully as and make them antifederationists, by the
we can, all matters that come before us, so erection of barriers which do not exist to-
as to leave the bill in the most perfect day. Why not leave the whole matter in
form in which we are capable of putting it the position in which it now occupies, in
at the present time; and, as we have a large which every state is unhampered, in doing
number of members present-nearly the what it will ? I hope that the Convention,
whole of the Convention, though there are recognising we shall bave another oppor-
a few notable absentees-I think, out of tunity to deal with the question, will out
mere courtesy to the parliaments which of respect to public sentiment, which is
have sent these suggestions, out of a due very strong, carry the amendment, in which
regard to what is required at our hands by case we shall leave the question without
these parliaments and the electors, we that prejudice which the negativing of the
should do our best to settle the question. amendment would lead to.
What do we gain by postponing the whole
Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
matter to Melbourne ? If we leave the
[11.32] : If this matter goes to a division
proposal for reconsideration at Melbourne, I shall vote for the amendment, but I
the least we can do is to leave it unpreju-
think it is only fair to let our temperance
diced now. Not to put in this amendment
friends understand that as the revenue
is to prejudice the whole case. In the first
will be considerably affected by the absence
place, we prejudice the case by rejecting
of the duties collectable in any state on
the amendment; in the next place we pre- spirits that state must be prepared, when
judice the case by, as the hon. member,
the time comes for the per capita distri-
Mr. Carruthers, put it, changing altogether bution of revenue, to accept less than the
the present provisions in the local law.
other states, or to make up the difference
If we leave it to Melbourne, let us leave
in some other direction. I think, with
things precisely as they are to-day.
the hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, that this
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : That is
is a moral question, and I recognise that
the proper course!
morality is above cash.
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER: I do not
The Right Hon. G. H. REID : Hear,
think we have a right to postpone the
hear. From a'banker that is a very large
matter unless we leave things precisely as
admission !
they are to-day, and we leave things pre-
Mr. SOLOMON (South Australia)
cisely as they are to-day by carrying the
amendment of the hon. member, Mr. [1134]: Really I do not see if the sug-
Deakin. If we do not carry that amend-
gestion of the right hon, the Premier of
New South Wales is to be carried out
ment, we shall have done this in the eyes
of the public, and in the eyes of the tem-
what more we want to do now than pass
perance people, who, throughout the colo- everything pro formd, and leave matters
nies, are very much interested in the mat-
over to be dealt with in Melbourne.
ter, and are watching us very closely-we The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Or stop!
!
[The Hon. F. W. Holder.
Commonwealth of
1049
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill
Mr. SOLOMON : If, wheneverwecome ment suggested by the legislature of Vic-
across a difficult question, a question con- toria. This clause has nothing whatever
cerning which the public are looking to to do with the right of the state to restrict
have some idea of the opinion of the Con- the sale of or to regulate the manner in
vention, to be discussed in the interval be- which liquor shall be sold within its own
tween now and the next meeting, we are boundaries. I suggest that the proper
going to avoid the subject, we shall do as course is to negative the amendment pro-
much harm and, perhaps, more to the cause posed by the legislature of Victoria and
of federation than we could possibly do by to deal with the whole question when we
discussing it now fully and fairly. As to get to clause 89, where we can have a
the point at issue, having listened to the much fuller discussion upon it, not only
arguments of previous speakers, I fail to in regard to the right of the states to
find in one of them a necessity for this prohibit the importation of liquor within
amendment. We are dealing now with their boundaries, but as to the responsi-
sub-clause 1 of clause 52. That sub-clause bility which will be thrown upon the other
simply gives power to the federal parlia- states by the fact of any individual state
ment to regulate trade and commerce with prohibiting the introduction of goods which
other countries, and among the several will produce such an important portion of
states. What on earth has that clause to their customs revenue. I will not discuss
do with the question of whether a state that question now; but I suggest that the
may enact prohibitive laws as to the liquor proper place at which to take this general
traffic within its own boundaries ?
debate would be on clause 89. Our best
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: A good deal! course would be now to negative the amend-
Mr. SOLOMON: It appears to me that ment of the legislature of Victoria, leaving
this is the wrong place in which to deal it to hon. members to propose some amend-
with the subject.
ment in clause 89 which will carry out
The Right Hon. G. H. Reid: That
that which they desire.
might be !
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [11.38] : The
Mr. SOLOMON: There is a proposal last speaker, I believe, is one of the strong
in clause 89, the clause dealing with uniform
advocates of state rights in this conven-
duties of customs that :
tion. He will remember that the other
So soon as uniform duties of customs have
day the right hon. the Premier of New
been imposed trade and intercourse throughout
South Wales challenged the advocates of
the commonwealth, whether by means of in-
ternal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be
state rights to define those rights, to put
absolutely free.
in the bill such rights as they claimed
In this clause we have an amendment
sug-
were state rights, and in this very clause
gested by two of the colonies, stipulating 52. Now, I would remind the hon. mem-
that although trade and intercourse shall ber, and other hon. members who are in-
be free throughout the commonwealth each terested in obtaining, as far as possible,
individual state shall have the right to the right of the states to local self-govern-
enact laws preventing the introduction of ment, that the question involved in the
liquor over its boundaries. That is the amendment submitted by the hon. and
right place in which to deal with this learned member, Mr. Deakin, is one of
question. I fail to see that this sub-clause, very great importance indeed. For my
which deals merely with trade and com- part, I think it is one of those state rights
merce of other countries and between the which ought to be put in the bill, and not
states, has anything to do with the amend- left in any doubt whatever.
}
4 D
1050
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.
Mr. SOLOMON : Hear, hear; but this is Dr. QUICK : I understand that the
not the right place for it!
hon. member, Mr. Solomon, is only arguing
Dr. QUICK : The question whether that this is the wrong place to put it in
this is the right or wrong place is a minor that is a minor question; it does not
question. The question we are dealing matter whether the amendment is put in
with now, and with which we ought to here or in clause 89.
deal, is whether this state right is to be Mr. SOLOMON : There are several other
put into the bill? I shall support the suggested amendments which will come in
amendment. I do not think the objection clause 89 !
raised by the hon. member, Mr. Barton- Dr. QUICK : That is a matter for the
the revenue objection-is of sufficient im- Drafting Committee. I think that this
portance to justify the rejection of the question is one that ought to be considered
amendment, and I will point out the reason from a general public federal point of view
why. It is not for one moment suggested rather than from a revenue point of view.
that we should take away from the states Serious consequences might follow, as has-
the right of imposing liquor laws. Each been suggested by the hon. and learned
state will have the right to pass a liquor member, Mr. Barton ; but, in my opinion,
law-a law for the regulation of liquor. the question of local self-government is of
Each state has that right preserved to it more importance than the revenue ques-
under its existing constitution; it conse- tion, and I believe that there are a large
quently has the power reserved to it of number of people in the states who, if they
reducing the revenue of the common- thought they were going to be deprived of
wealth.
the right of regulating the internal liquor
Mr. SOLOMON: Then where is the neces- traffic of their states, would vote against
sity for the amendment ?
a constitution that would deprive them of
Dr. QUICK: The second question is,
that right of local self-government. There-
whether the state shall have the additional
fore, I contend that that right ought to be
right of regulating the importation of secured and placed beyond all doubt, and
liquor. I submit that if a state has the
it can only be secured and placed beyond
right to regulate the sale of liquors pro- all doubt by providing for it in this con-
duced within its own territory, it also ought stitution bill; therefore, I shall vote for
to have the right to regulate the sale of the amendment.
liquors imported from other countries. Mr. GLYNN (South Australia)[11:42]:
Mr. SOLOMON : So they have at the pre- I think this question is a more difficult
sent time!
one than some of the members seem to
Dr. QUICK : No; I do not think they think. The case of Leisey versus Hardin,
have. I think it is necessary for this decided in America, has shown the neces-
amendment to be passed to give the states sity of our dealing with this question, be-
that right, for, as has already been pointed
cause the decision in that case was : that
out, this bill provides that trade and com- the sale of intoxicating liquors in the
merce between the various states shall be original packages in the state was uncon-
absolutely free, and this clause is in conflict stitutional and void. The object of this
with that provision, consequently some- amendment is to get rid of the effect of
thing must be put in to modify the extreme that decision.
words "absolutely free.”
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: There have been
Mr. SOLOMON: That is the clause I say
later decisions in cases in which the Wilson
it ought to be inserted in!
act was challenged, and that act was up-
[Dr. Quick
Commonwealth of
1051
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Biti.
US.
held. The Supreme Court of the United That is an addition to our difficulty.
States has held that it provides a solution It does not exist in the case of Canada,
of the difficulty.
and I say, therefore, that we ought to pass
Mr. GLYNN: It shows the necessity this amendment, and ought also to accept
of making such a provision as the one now the suggestion of the hon. and learned
suggested ; but if that be put in, we shall member, Mr. Barton, and postpone the
still be faced with a difficulty out of which further consideration of the matter until
we should not ask the Drafting Committee we meet in Melbourne, because if hon.
to get us, for it would impose almost a gentlemen will look through a synopsis of
superhuman task on the Drafting Commit- the cases to be found in Wheeler's “ Con-
tee to say what amendments are really federation of Canada," published only last
necessary in this clause. I say this because year, they will come to the conclusion that
there have been several decisions from it is exceedingly difficult to frame such an
1885 down to last year on this question amendment of this clause as will place
under the Canadian act, and we shall be beyond all doubt the question whether the
bound by those decisions, because some of power of probibition by the states of the
them are Privy Council decisions at the sale of intoxicating liquor within their
same time, I would remark that the pro- boundaries is preserved.
visions of the Canadian act are not exactly The Hon. H. DOBSON (Tasmania)
the same. They are for the regulation of [11.45]: I hope that the Committee will
trade and commerce, not between states and agree to the amendment suggested by
states, but with other countries ; neverthe- Victoria, and which has been supported
less, if hon. members read them they will by the hon. and learned member, Mr.
find this
Deakin. I think we shall make a very
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : In Canada the grave mistake if we leave too many im-
central government retains the residue of portant and contentious matters to be dis-
powers; here they do not!
cussed in Melbourne. Suppose we now
Mr. GLYNN:I understand that. One turn out a completed bill save and except
of the grounds of the decision is that a
the financial clauses, we shall have all our
license which amounted, practically, to a
work in three or four weeks in Melbourne
prohibition of sale was void—that the re- to adjust those, and put the finishing
sidue of powers remained with the central
touches to the constitution.
government, and that the local legislatures
The Hon. E. BARTON: There is no rea-
were limited to such powers as they got son why we should not sit five or six
by express delegation. But beyond that, weeks, or even longer, in Melbourne !
there were other grounds: that they had
The Hon. H. DOBSON: I think that
no such power, because it was an interfer- we shall get very tired if we sit five or six
ence with the powers of direct taxation weeks in Melbourne during the hot sum-
conferred on the central government. The mer weather. We are doing our work so
upshot of the decision in Canada is that a well that we shall probably not have to sit
license that amounts to a prohibition of so long as that in Melbourne; but, of
sale is illegal. I merely mention this for course, we shall sit there longer if neces-
the purpose of showing that you cannot, sary. This question is so important and
without considering this in conjunction complicated that I think the Drafting
with the American cases, say what ought Committee ought to have a little more in-
be done, because clause 89 must be read struction on the question of prohibition.
in conjunction with the sub-clause before
It appears to me that those people in all
1052
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
our states who have quite as earnest con- people to high positions, which I shall
victions on this matter as some of our oppose most strenuously when it comes on
friends have on the question of deadlocks, for consideration again.
will not be satisfied if they think the federal The CHAIRMAN: The hon. gentleman
constitution is to put a stop to their get- cannot discuss that matter now.
ting a measure of prohibition. I pre- The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL: I seldom
sume that a zealous teetotaller is always address the Committee, and I think that
looking forward to the time when he will I might be allowed a little latitude in ex-
convert his fellowmen, and win success, plaining why I am going to vote as I shall
and get a measure of prohibition, and, in on this occasion. I do not think that any
my opinion, our constitution will have a hon, member will impute to me that I have
very great blot upon it unless we do, apart taken up too much time. It has been my
from the question of revenue, provide some continual study throughout the sittings of
means to enable the states to prohibit the this Convention not to repeat myself. I
importation of liquor, and I think it would am sorry that while I was absent last
help a solution of the matter very much if night the clause to which I have referred
the constitution at the same time said that was passed. In the present instance I
a colony. like South Australia or Victoria, shall vote for the amendment.
which is a wine-producing colony, shall not The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
have that important industry taken away South Wales) [11:49]: Since it is evident
from it, but shall be able to manufacture that a serious vote must be given on this
wine, beer, ale, or spirits, but for export matter, I wish to add a word or two to
only. So I really think the Drafting Com- what I have already said. In the first
mittee have to face an important question, place, it is clear that under the provision
not simply that of the carrying of this that all the powers that are not expressly
amendment, which is a very simple mat- given to the federation are reserved to the
ter. They have to consider the question states, the power of regulating the con-
of providing for the question of prohibi- sumption of intoxicating liquors is reserved
tion, and, at the same time, for providing to each state. .
for the protection of the natural industries The Hon. E. BARTON : Quite so !
of South Australia and Victoria, and mak- The Right Hon. G. H. REID : There-
ing the sale of what they produce in har fore, the question about customs revenue
mony with the prohibition law of any state. is irrelevant. That is a question of the
The Hon. S. FRASER(Victoria)[11:47]: power that already belongs to the state, it
I shall vote for this addition to the bill. is not a question we can consider at all.
In the province of Nova Scotia, in the The constitution is so framed that these
Dominion of Canada, there is prohibition, colonies will have the power to do what
and I think it is only right that each they like in reference to the consumption
colony should have the power to regulate of intoxicating drinks within their own
its own internal affairs.
boundaries. Therefore, the revenue ques-
The Hon. Sir W. A. ZEAL (Victoria) tion is out of court.
tion is out of court. It is an incident of
[11:48]: I am in favour of this amend- what we are doing. The value of these
ment. I would be willing to follow the observations is that they direct the atten-
advice of the hon, and learned member, tion of the Finance Committee to a state
Mr. Barton, had not a very important pro- of things which must be specially provided
vision been passed by the Committee last for. Putting aside the revenue matter, as
night in regard to the appointment of a matter for the Finance Committee to
t
[The Hon. H. Dobson.
Commonwealth of
1053
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
deal with, we have simply to face the pro- You would have given the commonwealth
position that we must make the constitu- a nominal power to deal with the regula-
tion clear upon that point about which tion of trade and commerce ; but with the
there is no real doubt as to our intentions. other hand you would have taken it away.
Under these circumstances, although I If you take it away in regard to this large
would prefer the matter to be made clear class of subjects you might take it away
in another clause, as there is going to be a with regard to all subjects.
division upon the merits of the case, I The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : There is no
shall vote for the insertion of the words. power in the commonwealth parliament
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South to deal with this matter, though there is
Wales) [11:51]: I intend to vote against in the federal parliament of the United
the amendment. The question of the
States !
customs revenue cannot be lightly disposed
The Hon. E. BARTON: There is power
of, because, as the matter stands now, the to regulate trade and commerce, though
state has power to deal with the consump-
clause 89 stands somewhat in the way,
tion of liquor within its borders. Under and I propose to amend that clause so as
the constitution as it stands, it would be to prevent the commonwealth parliament
in the same position as the state of Iowa from being denuded of the powers it would
with regard to the law which it passed-
otherwise have. To give the states power
that is to say, it might not be able to deal to deal with the importation of a class of
with the importation and sale of original goods which are the foundation of the
packages, but would still have entire right customs revenue in all the colonies, would
to control consumption. There may be a be an anomalous position to set up. If
great difference between the two powers, this power is given in respect to the con-
and it would make a great difference to the sumption of alcoholic liquors, you may as
customs revenue a difference which I do well grant it in respect to everything
not think we can ignore. With regard to else, and then what becomes of the re-
the general merits of the question, I think gulation of trade and commerce by the
it would be unwise and impolitic to speci- commonwealth ?
I suggest that clause
ally enlarge the powers of the states in 89 should be amended in some such way
dealing with the sale of one class of goods, as will leave the commonwealth in its
while their powers are limited with regard proper position as the regulator of trade
to the sale of every other class of goods in and commerce. Let the states be allowed
relation to the condition of internal poli- to deal with the consumption of intoxicat-
tics. If the subject of a sale is anything ing liquors; but do not let them interfere
apart from intoxicating liquorsmit may with the trade and commerce of the com-
be a poison, or one of a thousand other monwealth. It does not correctly state the
things—while the state can deal with its position to say that, by carrying the
sale and consumption within its borders, amendment, you put matters in the position
it cannot prohibit its importation if the in which they are to-day. Under the com-
commonwealth is to regulate trade and monwealth matters cannot be in the posi-
commerce. If you are to take away this tion in which they are to-day. There must
power of regulating trade and commerce be these alterations which are necessitated
from the commonwealth in respect to one by the solidification of the states for some
class of articles, it would be logical to take purposes, one of which is to give power
it away in respect to others. Imagine the to the commonwealth to regulate trade
state of chaos which that would produce. and commerce so as to prevent its being
1054
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
hampered by the individual act of any one commonwealth to regulate trade. I sub-
state. It is against all principle, and in- mit that this cannot, and ought not to be
politic, to impose a disqualification with re- allowed, and that we shall act wisely in
gard to this class of goods, which you do negativing the amendment.
not impose with regard to other classes of Mr. MCMILLAN (New South Wales)
goods. It would be much more logical to [11:57]: I hope that in discussing this matter
allow the commonwealth to legislate upon our views in regard to the liquor traffic will
the consumption of alcoholic liquors; but be carefully excluded. I do not know how
that is a power which, I take it, the states this question has been dealt with in other
will not surrender. In that case, let them parts of the world; but I can see that by
be satisfied with the power to deal with giving the states power to forbid the import
the consumption of alcoholic liquors, which of liquor you have an absolute abnegation of
they can deal with effectively. Do not let intercolonial free-trade. We know very
them ask power to control the action of well that in dealing with the customs, if
the commonwealth in respect to one of the you have an ad valorem duty upon only
most essential powers of the cominon- one article, it leads to a wholesale system
wealth. If this power is to be given up in of espionage, delay, and inconvenience. I
regard to one class of goods, let it be given fail to see how you can give power to the
up in regard to all; but, if it is to be retained states to prevent the importation of liquor
at all, let it be retained in regard to all. unless you give them full power over the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : It is only in means of transit over their borders. Al-
regard to intoxicants that a question of though an affidavit might be given that
principle arises !
there was no spirit on board, a train might
The Hon. E. BARTON: I know that be stopped on the border while a search
a great many people think that it is against was made under the reasonable belief that
morality to consume alcoholic liquor, while there was liquor on board. You might
others are actuated by the idea, “I can-
have the whole of the border trade of a
not drink, therefore you must not.'
I am
state interfered with in that way by the
not going to discuss those parts of the officers of the state. Such a state of things
question. I want to leave the liquor ques- would lead indirectly to the re-erection of
tion as a matter of internal state regula- what would be practically custom-houses
tion out of consideration altogether. What on the border. A vital principle connected
I suggest is that the power to regulate with federation from the national and com-
consumption which the states possess to- mercial point of view is that it will give
day, and would possess under the common- absolutely free intercourse between the
wealth, will enable them to do effectually states. Let the states who want to pre-
what is wanted. If you give them the vent the consumption of intoxicating liquor
power to prohibit importation, this may within their borders provide that all spirits
happen : Goods destined for transit from shall go into public bonds. We can make
state A to state o may in some moment the selling of spirits a matter for the states
of fanaticism be prevented from passing to regulate.
through state B, and thus dealings between An HON. MEMBER: That is all we ask!
state A and state C may be rendered im- Mr. MCMILLAN: Let the states have
possible, or else very inconvenient, because power to deal with the consumption of
of the long round about deviation which intoxicating liquors within their borders;
would be required. Such a state of things but do not give them a general power to
would set at nought the powers of the ransack every means of communication
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of [22 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
1055
across their borders. No doubt great mis- confers on the commonwealth parliament
construction will be placed upon the vote power to deal with and regulate commerce
which is to be given upon this question. I between states, impliedly by that excludes
am anxious that every state should have the states from making any regulations
its own autonomy. I am very anxious that with regard to inter-state commerce, other-
the liquor traffic should be regulated on wise they might throw everything into
purely democratic local option principles. disorder.
At the same time, I think that by doing it The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
as attempted it might be a great blow at But not traffic within their own boun-
intercolonial free-trade.
daries?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria) The Hon I. A. ISAACS: No; but the
[12] : I think the observations of the hon. United States decisions are that it is still
member, Mr. Barton, and the hon. mem- inter-state commerce, so long as the sub-
ber, Mr. McMillan, were impelled by views ject of that commerce remains in the hands
of the Tasmanian and Western Australian of the original importer, and in an un-
amendments. But I would like my hon.
broken package.
friend, Mr. Barton, to see whether he can- Mr. SYMON : What you want to do is to
not vote for the Victorian proposition, which regulate the consumption. That is not
does not seem to be open to the animad- interfered with !
versions he has passed on the others. The The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: As soon as the
difference is essential. I quite agree with liquor comes into a state, and goes into
my
hon. friend that the power of the states consumption or use in the state itself, the
to regulate the importation---that is to say, state shall have the same power to make
the traffic in the sense of conveyance-is regulations with regard to that use or
a very different matter from the sale of consumption as it can with regard to liquor
liquor within the state to the people of the in its own territory.
state. We have never attempted in our Mr. SYMON : Where is there anything
amendment to interfere with the importa- in the constitution to take that power
tion or the transit. Our amendment is as
away?
follows :-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I pointed out
Add at the end of sub-clause I “Provided that
earlier in the day that clause 52, sub-
all fermented, distilled, or other intoxicating
liquors or liquids transported into any state or
clause I, prevents a state from making
territory, or remaining therein for use, consump- any regulation with regard to importation.
tion, sale, or storage therein, shall upon arrival It remains inter-state commerce until the
in such state or territory be subject to the opera-
package is broken. Under the decisions
tion and effect of the laws of such state or terri-
of the United States courts, until 1890,
tory to the same extent and in the same man-
ner as though such liquors or liquids had been when an act of Congress was passed, it
produced in such state or territory."
was actually held that a state could not
Mr. SOLOMON : Is that necessary at all? insist upon licenses being held for the sale
Is there any portion of this bill which gives of liquor that still remained in the hands
over the power of the states to the com- of the original importers and in unbroken
monwealth to regulate the traffic in liquor packages. It still remained inter-state
inside the boundaries of the states ?
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Yes, in clause Mr. SYMON : That is an extraordinary
52. The American decisions are very decision !
much in point; but the Canadian decisions The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It may be ex-
do not apply at all. Clause 52, when it traordinary at first sight; but the reasons,
commerce.
1056
Australia Bill.
Cominonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
when looked at, are understandable. Any- the importation all round our boundaries
thing else would stop inter-state commerce. of spirits and wines. My desire is to give
Then a bill was passed to enable this diffi- a vote which will allow the state parlia-
culty to be got over. When we come to ment to deal with the sale of liquor in that
clause 89, providing for absolute freedom state, and to regulate the sale.
of trade, it prevents even the common- An HON. MEMBER: The amendment
wealth parliament from cutting that down. will allow that!
It is necessary to put that in the consti- Mr. LYNE: Or what is commonly
tution. In any case, I think this is a fair known as the question of local option. I
and reasonable proposal. Looking at it, know of nothing in this bill at the present
not as a question of money, but as a ques- time which will prevent the states parlia-
tion of morality, and in order to disarm a ment from dealing with any liquor that
great amount of antagonism that would un- may be imported into a state, and which
doubtedly meet this constitution if we nega- remains there. I was under the impres-
tived this proposal, it is only right and fair sion that no matter how much liquor was
to put this in.
imported into a state, that liquor would
The Hon. E. BARTON : Leaving it to the
be dealt with as if it were manufactured
Drafting Committee to find the proper
in the state.
place to put it?
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Not unless you
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes.
pass this amendment !
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON Mr. LYNE: The leader of the Conven-
(Tasmania) [12:7]: If the hon. member, tion and the hon member, Mr. McMillan,
Mr. Isaacs, is correct, the proposed amend- have both taken a line of argument to show
ment from Victoria should be altered, so that this will interfere very much with the
that instead of " or remaining therein "it customs duties on the various borders.
should read “and remaining therein.” As Suppose that in New South Wales the
the amendment now stands, directly any local optionists prohibited the manufacture
liquor is imported within the borders of of wine, whiskey, or other spirits.
the state, or it may be imported only to Mr. SYMON : That would only be done
pass through, it becomes liable to the laws by the prohibitionists !
of that state, and those laws might involve Mr. LYNE: A great many would do
the destruction of the liquor.
so at the present time. In Victoria they
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Only to the manufacture wine and brandy, and they
same extent as liquor produced in that manufacture other spirits. Would we have
state !
to keep customs officers along the border
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON: in order to ascertain what spirits come
It might be that the state law would pro- into this colony from Victoria ?
hibit the export of any liquor or its manu-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Possibly!
facture.
Mr. LYNE: According to the argu-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : That is a pointments of the hon. member, Mr. Barton,
for the Drafting Committee !
and the hon. member, Mr. McMillan, if
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [12:8]: you pass this amendment you must know
I have tried to understand this matter, but all the spirits that come from Victoria to
my lay mind is unable to understand the New South Wales for all time, in order
position even now. I take it that this that the sale of those spirits can be regu-
Commonwealth Bill is intended to give to lated by the state laws. If that is so-
the federal parliament power to deal with and I do not wish to be misunderstood in
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
1057
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the vote I shall give on the question—I will not. I do not think that, as between
shall certainly vote against the proposal. states, anything of this kind should take
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: This proposal place.
will only make spirits coming from Vic- Mr. McMILLAN : If the hon. member
toria capable of being dealt with in the crossed the border, they would ransack his
same manner as you have decided to deal baggage, and see if he had any spirits ir it !
with your own spirits !
Mr. LYNE: I do not think that, as
Mr. LYNE: How are we to keep a re- between states, that should be done. I
cord of them? How are we to check them ? wish it to be clearly understood that we
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : You do not need are not voting against leaving to the state
to check them at all. All liquor would be the power of dealing with the regulation
treated the same wherever it came from ! and the consumption of spirits inside the
Mr. LYNE: Does the hon. member colony. I want to give a vote which will
mean to tell me that there is any provi- prevent the possibility of a state interfer-
sion in the constitution which will prevent ing with the importation, through the cus-
them being dealt with in the same manner? toms, of spirits. When it comes into the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Yes; the Ameri- state, let the state have the control and
can decision shows it!
the sale of it, but nothing further.
Mr. LYNE: If that is so I should be Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12.14]:
quite prepared to vote for the amendment; With all due deference to the hon. mem-
but I want the Drafting Committee to ber, Mr. Deakin, it seems to me that the
make it absolutely clear that there shall
amendment goes very much further than
be no check on free interchange across the is intended, and the difficulty present in
borders between one state and another. If the mind of the hon. member, Mr. Lyne,
that is done I am quite prepared to accept is a real and substantial one. Undoubtedly
the amendment, provided that the legal the power which will be reserved to the
interpretation is correct.
state under the amendment would be a
The Hon. E. BARTON : What is wanted power which might be exercised to pre-
by the amendment is to give certain powers vent all importation of liquor into the
of dealing with the sale as well as the con- state. The position is this : that the state
sumption. The states at present have every is to have the same power of dealing with
power of dealing with the consumption of imported liquor as with liquor manufac-
alcoholic liquors, and the constitution will tured within its own boundaries. That is
give them every power.
What is asked clear, and, of course, on the face of it, there
for here is that, inasmuch as they might will be no difficulty ; but the state will
have to deal with the importation, there have the power of prohibiting the manu-
shall be a power which will enable them to facture of liquor within its own bounda-
deal with the sale of goods in the package ries, and of prohibiting the sale. The
in which they are imported into the state. result under the amendment will be that
Mr. LYNE: Yes. The leader of the it will have the power of probibiting
Convention says it is desirable to give the importation.
state power to prevent the importation, The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We all agree to
I do not want to give the state that power.
that!
Mr. SYMON: But this would do it!
Mr. SYMON: If the Committee intend
Mr. LYNE: One leading barrister on
that shall be the result, so far so good;
one side says it will do it, and another but if we adopt that course, and give this
leading barrister on the other side says it power of absolute prohibition to the state
1058 Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
--a prohibition of sale which will be equiva- government over the federal customs in re-
lent to a prohibition of importation-wespect of that particular and prolific source
give to the state the power of cutting of revenue. Without going into the ques-
away the whole of the.customs duties aris- tion of the different views as to the con-
ing from the importation of those particu- sumption or use of alcoholic liquors, it is
lar articles. That would disarrange and essential that power should be preserved
dislocate the whole of our fiscal policy. to the respective states. The proposal,
That, surely, cannot be the intention of however, is going a great deal too far if
the Committee for one moment.
it is to have the effect of retaining in the
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Where are state states the power of withdrawing from the
rights now?
federal government a very large portion
Mr. SYMON: The state rights are of their revenue,
ample. The national power which is The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
handed over is the power of controlling (South Australia) [12.19]: I understand
the customs revenue.
If we hand over the effect of the American decision is this :
that which lies at the very basis of the that if we retain the bill in its present
federal system we hand over that power. shape we cannot prohibit the sale within
That we have agreed to give. That is a a state by an importer of alcoholic liquor in
state right which we have surrendered ; the original package.
but if we surrender it with the one hand Mr. SYMON : Why should we?
much as we value the rights of the states,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Or even to
we do not want to go through the ex- require a license for the sale !
treme farce of taking it back with the The Right Hon.C.C. KINGSTON: Thus
other; and that is what we should be the position is this : that the state in South
doing. I do not know how the Drafting
Australia could legislate to prevent a wine-
Committee would deal with this matter ; grower selling to a third party a cask of
but so long as it is limited to regulating
wine of his own manufacture ; but if that
the sale, by local option, which is applied
cask of wine were imported from another
to distribution houses
colony be could sell it without restriction.
The Hon. E. BARTON : That is mere
The position is monstrous, and I shall vote
for the amendment.
consumption !
Mr. SYMON : Yes, consumption. Then
Question—That the words (Victorian
it should be left entirely unrestricted, and
amendment) proposed to be inserted be so
that of course does not affect the sub-
inserted-put. The Committee divided :
stratum of all our federal system, namely,
Ayes, 28; noes, 11 ; majority, 17.
AYES.
the control of customs and excise.
Abbott, Sir Joseph Higgins, H. B.
The Hon. E. BARTON : Without this Berry, Sir G.
Holder, F. W.
amendment it would be so under the bill ! Briggs, H.
H we, J. A.
Mr. SYMON: That is what I venture
Brown, N. J.
Kingston, C. C.
Brunker, J, N.
Leake, G.
to think ; but if the desire of the Conven-
Carruthers, J. H. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
tion is to hand over to the state the power Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Moore, W.
of abolishing the importation, manufac-
Crowder, F. T. Quick, Dr. J.
Deakin, A.
Venn, H. W.
ture, as well as the consumption of all
Dobson, H.
Walker, J. T.
liquor in the state, we ought to do it with
Forrest, Sir J.
Wise, B. R.
our eyes open. I am not in favour of that, Fraser, S.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
for the reason, as I say, that it cuts away
Fysh, Sir P, O.
Glynn, P. M.
Teller,
the whole of the power of the national Gordon, J. H.
Isaacs, I. A.
1
[Mr. Symon.
Commonwealth of
105.9
[22 SEPT., 1897. ]
Australia Bill.
NOES.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: No, it
Barton, E.
Lyne, W. J.
has not. I would be glad if the hon. and
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. McMillan, W.
Downer, Sir J. W. O'Connor, R. E.
learned member could point out where the
Grant, C. H.
Solomon, V. L.
state has that power.
Henning, A. H.
Teller,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : If the hon.
Henry, J.
Lewis, N. E.
member will look at clause 106, which is
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
one adopted from the American Constitu-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South tion, he will see that it provides :
Australia) [12:25]: I wish to refer to a
After uniform duties of customs have been
question of considerable importance that imposed, a state shall not levy any impost or
has been discussed before, but for which, charge on imports or exports, except such as
so far, no provision has been made. I
may be necessary for executing the inspection
laws of the state.
want to put in these words :
The Hon. J.H. GORDON: That does not
And the parliament may provide for the pro-
hibition of the introduction of vegetable and
go as far as prohibition !
animal diseases from one state to another.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I thought
This is very important to all the colonies,
the hon, and learned member would prob-
and it is important in a great degree to ably allude to that clause, and I think he
the colony of New South Wales. I do will see that it only gives the power of
not want to take up time, but I should like inspection, and the power to charge fees
to have these words inserted as an instruc-
for inspection, and does not give the power
tion to the Drafting Committee. At present
to prohibit.
the different colonies have these powers ;
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: There will
but when the commonwealth comes into
be power on the part of a state to prohibit!
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: There
existence, under the clause relating to the
equality of trade, any regulation or law
will not be such a power, because any law
made to this effect will be null and void.
made by a state, or even by the common-
I would ask the representatives of all the
wealth parliament, which may have the
colonies, what would that mean? We have
effect of derogating from the freedom of
at present unfortunately, decimating the
trade or commerce will be absolutely nul!
and void.
herds of an adjoining colony, a disease known
A law prohibiting the passing
as “tick fever," which the people of New
of cattle over the border of Queensland
into New South Wales will, to a great
South Wales, Victoria, and South Aus-
tralia proper, do not mean to allow to be
extent, interfere with freedom of trade.
admitted within their borders.
A law prohibiting the introduction of
Mr. HIGGINS : You want to prevent the
vines into South Australia, where we have
stock from coming in !
no phylloxera, and where we mean to keep
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We want
free from that scourge, would be interfer-
the federal parliament to have that power ing undoubtedly with freedom of commerce.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The leader of
if it pleases. Under this bill it will not
have that power.
the Convention has said that he intends
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why is it not
to amend clause 89 !
sufficient to let the state protect itself ?
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: As long
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN:I do not as I have an undertaking that the leader
think this Committee is favourable to of the Convention will, in any clause he
giving the state that power.
may choose to name, provide for the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It has got it, as placing of this very necessary power in
to disease from abroad !
the hands of the federal parliament, I am
1060 Commonwealth of [22 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
me.
satisfied. I would rather see the power in also protesting—and we know that he has
the hands of the states, and in Adelaide I taken measures which are, if anything, too
tried to get that brought about, but the stringent, to protect Western Australia
Constitutional Committee were against from these pests; we know that he is
.
keenly sensitive in these matters, from a
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I desire to keep his colony free from disease.
think the states would be the best autho- I wish to save a repetition of the debate,
rity!
and, therefore, I would suggest that words
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I endea- should be inserted in this clause. They
voured to enforce that view as a member will be an intimation to the Drafting Com-
of the Constitutional Committee in Ade- mittee to insert suitable words in any
laide, but I failed to do so. It was pointed clause they may think proper. The words
out to me that if the power were left in I propose to insert are to this effect :
the hands of a state it might use it in such And the parliament may provide for the
a way as not only to protect itself from
prohibition of the introduction of vegetable or
animal disease from one state to another.
disease, but to derogate from freedom of
trade and commerce, and to set up pro-
The Hon. S. FRASER (Victoria) [12:34]:
tection for certain producers within its
With regard to tick and other diseases, it
own boundaries.
will undoubtedly be the first duty of the
The Hon. E. BARTON : I intend when commonwealth parliament to localise any
we reach clause 89 to move an amend-
disease of the kind. In South America
ment which may possibly satisfy the hon.
they have localised the tick, and in Queens-
member. Would it not be well to take
land it is now localised. In Queensland
the discussion upon that clause ?
they will not allow cattle to travel south
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: We have of a certain parallel; and if Queensland
discussed, and arrived at a decision upon,
can localise a disease, would not the do-
the matter which has just been under con-
minion parliament be also likely to take
sideration, and I do not see why we should a similar course if it were found that any
not now arrive at a decision upon this ques-
plague of the kind were not localised ?
tion. It is a matter of vital concern to New
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I am propos-
South Wales. This colony does not want ing now to give power to do that!
tick fever, and there must be some power to
The Hon. S. FRASER: The time is
prohibit its introduction into the colony, now when the tick scare is passed and
by giving this power to the commonwealth gone. Inoculation is pretty well known
parliament or to the state parliaments. If to have been a complete success, so that,
we do not adopt some means of preventing as far as that particular disease is con-
the ravages of disease, not only the stock cerned, there need be no great alarm.
owners of New South Wales, but the Queensland is much more in advance in
owners of the dairy herds of Victoria, and the matter than was Texas, where they
the vignerons and fruit-growers of South had the plague for a hundred years. In
Australia will be found resisting federa- Queensland Dr. Hunt and others have
tion, no matter what its advantages may been taking steps to guard against the
be, feeling, as they might, that federa- spread of the disease, and they have been
tion would be not only an opportunity for eminently successful.
the introduction of freedom of trade but The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
RTON
for the spread of disease. We should have Wales) [12:36]: I think it would be better
my right hon. friend, Sir John Forrest, if the hon. and learned member were to
[The Hon. Dr. Cockburn.
Commonwealth of
1061
[22 SEPT., 1897.1
Australia Bill.
leave it to the state parliaments instead constitution extended, so as to prohibit
of to the commonwealth parliament to that which is peculiarly a state interest,
deal with this matter. I am rather under from being adequately protected.
the impression that the states would know The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
best to what extent the introduction of [12:39]: As I shall not be here after to-
disease would affect them. The common- day, I should like to say as to this matter
wealth parliament will have to deal not that, no doubt, the leader of the Conven-
with local but with national interests, and tion, and my hon. friends who are associ-
I think it would be better, therefore, to ated with him upon the Drafting Commit-
leave this matter in the hands of the indi- tee, will give consideration to the question
vidual states.
whether it is necessary and advisable to
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : When I made put in special words as to the states' right
that proposal in Adelaide it was pointed to do a certain thing of this kind, that is,
out that the states might misuse the by way of specifying it in this instance, and
power!
omitting the specification of a thousand and
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the power
one other instances of equal importance.
exists at all it should exist in the hands of
I think that we should frame our consti-
the state subject to its being annulled if
tution carefully, so as not to take away
it be found that the regulations made are
the rights of the states in such a matter
merely a cover for fiscal change, and are
as this. My hon. friends will also bear in
not for the bond fide purpose of excluding
mind the immense power that, in the
a disease.
United States Constitution, there is still
residing in the states over such a case as
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN: I should be
this, under what are known as police
very much better pleased, if the leader of
the Convention will assist me in the matter,
powers. Under those police powers the
states have, as has been held by the highest
to see this power placed in the hands of the
tribunal of the United States, the fullest
state parliaments !
means of protecting the lives, the health,
The Hon. E. BARTON: The Drafting the safety, and the comfort of their resi-
Committee will have time to-morrow to
dents, so long as they do not entrench upon
deal with various matters, and I think
the specific powers given to the United
we shall be able then to frame a clause
States Central Government, for the benefit
which can be considered by the Conven-
of the general community. It has always
tion on Friday, dealing with the hon.
power to draw the line between the two,
member's suggestion.
and a great number of decisions have been
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I merely given, and it is admitted that the Supreme
wished to save time now. I feel that the Court of the United States has held the
common-sense of the Convention will in- balance fairly. Questions have arisen from
sist that some power of the kind should time to time as to how far the states have
.be given to some authority in the com- exceeded their powers when they have
monwealth.
excluded paupers, criminals, and goods,
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [12:38]: and every time the courts have strenu-
Surely the states have not taken from ously upheld the rights of the states to do
them the right to pass such measures as it, so long as they do that in honest and
would be necessary for the health of their bond fide protection of their own citizens ;
citizens and their flocks and herds. I think but, wherever their actions went beyond
it would be monstrous to say that this that, and entrenched on the inter-state
1062
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
commerce provisions of the constitution- sary for the preservation of the health of
entrenched upon the provisions that ap- the inhabitants and of the property by the
plied to the national government--the state. Those powers would include power
court has not failed to put down its strong to deal with such diseases in the vegetable
hand, and insisted that the statute of the world as the hon. and learned member,
state was unconstitutional, and in that
Dr. Cockburn, has spoken of, and also
way has held the balance fairly. So long with animal diseases. It was suggested in
as that is done, while giving the common- Adelaide that these powers might be used
wealth parliament the fullest power to in such a way as to have a protective
protect the national interests, I think
influence in favour of certain states.
there will be no difficulty in the state
Mr. SYMON : That would be in conflict
protecting its own individual interests the
with the constitution !
same as the states of the United States
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I was
do now
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New going to point that out. There are a num-
ber of decisions in America, as has been
South Wales) [12:42]: It may be inter-
pointed out by my hon. and learned friend,
esting for the hon. and learned member,
in wbich on that very ground or similar
Dr. Cockburn, to hear this very concise
statement of the law of the United States,
grounds it has been held that the law, not
which would be exactly applicable to this
being a bona fide exercise of the police
proposed constitution, and very much on powers, is not within the powers of the
the lines that the hon. and learned mem-
state. Of course, there is another question
ber, Mr. Isaacs, has just stated. I am
behind all that, which I think is a very im-
citing from a well-known book, Ordronaux's portant one, that is, considering the im-
“Constitutional Legislation." At page 296 mense traffic, say, in cattle, that there is
he says this :
right across this continent, the infrequency
By parity of reason addressed to the protec- of habitation, and the difficulties of enforc-
tion of the public health, states may exercise
ing the quarantine laws from state to state,
their police powers to the extent of prohibiting
whether such a disease, for instance, as the
both persons and animals, when labouring under
contagious diseases, from entering their territory.
tick disease should be dealt with by the
They may pass any sanitary laws deemed neces- authority of the commonwealth instead of
sary for this purpose, and enforce them by ap-
by the states themselves. It is a very
propriate regulations. It is upon this reserved
right of self-protection that quarantines are per-
important question, and there are many
mitted to interfere with the freedom of com-
difficulties in the way of its being dealt
merce and of human intercourse. But this power with by the federal authority. One of the
is not without its limitations, and its exercise chief of them is, I think, the impossibility
must be restricted to directly impending dangers
of the federal authority administering an
to health, and not to those who are only contin-
gent and remote. Hence, while diseased persons
act of that kind without having an enor-
or diseased animals, and those presumedly so mous array of officials and immense ex-
from contact with infected bodies or localities, penditure. As we all know, there are in
may be prevented from entering a state, any
general law of exclusion, measured by months,
each colony laws affecting contagious dis-
or operating in such a way as to become a bar- eases of cattle or sheep, and they are all
rier to commerce or travel, would be a regula- administered by local bodies. The ma-
tion of commerce forbidden by the constitution,
chinery and administration are simple, and
Such a statute being more than a quarantine
regulation, transcends the legitimate powers of
the laws are cheaply worked in the vari-
a state,
ous districts themselves. But if you place
So it is quite clear that all the powers them under the federal government, to be
are left in the state which are neces- operated by federal officers, you render an
.
[The Hon. I. A. Isaacs,
Commonwealth of
1063
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
immense machinery necessary to carry out
the very simple objects which are carried
out by the local bodies at the present time.
It appears to me that the balance of reason
is in favour of leaving things as they are
-leaving power in the states to deal with
all those matters that come under the head
of police powers in the United States, the
infection of animals, the infection of vege-
tables, the introduction of animal and
vegetable diseases. There is ample power
to deal with them, and I think that the
matter might be left in that way.
The CHAIRMAN : I would point out that
there is no question of quarantine or quar-
antine regulations before the Committee.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South
Australia) [12:47]: I think we should re-
new this debate at some future period. In
reply to the hon. and learned member, Mr.
O'Connor, I may say that I am not at all
sure that our proposed constitution does
not go further in reference to free-trade
between the states than the American Con-
stitution does, and therefore, it might re-
quire some further provision in view of
the very strong words which it contains,
although such à provision might not be
necessary in America. Words simply pro-
hibiting the introduction of actual disease
would not be suficient. I admit that the
decision which has been quoted relates
also to anything that has been in contact
with any disease in anyway. But it would
be necessary in many cases actually to
prohibit the introduction of all cattle and
all vegetables of a certain character. If
Queensland were to relax her local quar-
antine regulations, it might be necessary
for the adjoining colony to prohibit a
single hoof of cattle from crossing the
border, and this might be held to be an
absolute derogation from freedom of trade,
unless there were special provision in the
constitution dealing with it. It might be
necessary for South Australia to prevent
the importation of any portion of a vine,
and this might be said to seriously dero-
gate from freedom of trade between the
colonies. I ask the Drafting Committee
to be exceedingly careful in the matter. I
think the power does not exist, and I am
sure that it should exist; for otherwise
we should find that the opposition to this
constitution bill, if it is assumed that there
is no such power given, would be of a very
fierce and vehement character.
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [12:49] :
I think that I can reassure the hon, and
learned member to some extent. He has
raised an important point, and I do not
think that we should reserve these impor-
tant points until we meet in Melbourne,
but should settle them now if we can do so.
The Hon. E. BARTON : In how many
weeks? We have not finished one provi-
sion in two and a half hours !
Mr. HIGGINS : But this is one of the
most important parts of the bill. I think
it is our duty, not to have tentative solu-
tions, but to make the best solution we
can, and I feel, now that this question has
been raised, it is our duty to devote our-
selves to it. The hon. member is quite
right in saying that the proposed bill goes
further in the direction of providing for
free intercourse and freedom of trade be-
tween the states than does the American
Constitution. It goes much further.
An Hon. MEMBER : By reason of the
general words in clause 89. It is proposed
to eliminate those words !
Mr. HIGGINS: Yes; I made a note of
that. It is perfectly clear that under the
American Constitution a state can make a
law preventing the sale within its own
borders of animals having any disease, and
to prevent the introduction of such animals
into its territory.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : There is no
doubt about that!
Mr. HIGGINS: The hon. and learned
member is quite right in saying that if
clause 89 remains as it is the states of the
1064
Australico Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australasian commonwealth will have no the commonwealth is not to be restricted or
interfered with by any taxes, charges, or im-
such power. A good example of the appli-
posts.
cation of this law in America is given at
If this amendment is made, the matter
page 104 of Baker's " Annotated Consti-
tution of the United States":
may be considered in connection with clause
99, which provides that:
The statute of Minnesota approved April 16th,
1889, entitled " An act for the protection of the All powers which at the establishment of the
public health, by providing for inspection, before commonwealth are vested in the parliaments of
slaughtering of cattle, sheep, and swine designed
the several colonies, and which are not by this
for slaughter for human food " is unconstitu- constitution exclusively vested in the parlia-
tional and void in so far as it requires, as a con-
ment of the commonwealth, or withdrawn from
dition of sales in Minnesota of fresh beef, veal,
the parliaments of the several states, are re-
mutton, lamb, or pork for human food, that the
served to, and shall remain vested in, the par-
animals from which such meats are taken shall
liaments of the states respectively.
have been inspected in that state before being
At the present time this power exists in
slaughtered. The inspection thus provided for
is of such a character, or is burdened with guch
all the states ; but if the amendments I
conditions, as will prevent the introduction into have suggested be carried the prohibition
the state of sound meats, the product of animals
of the importation of diseased animals or
slaughtered in other states.
plants will not be a matter of taxes, charges,
To make an inspection law was prima or imposts. Therefore, the power to pre-
facie within the powers of the state of vent the introduction of diseases would
Minnesota; but the state legislature went still remain with the states, except in so
beyond its powers in enacting an act which
far as any state law was found to be an
provided for an inspection of such a char-
intentional derogation from the freedom
acter as to interfere with the sale in Min-
of trade. I think that if we amend clause
nesota of meat brought from other states.
89 in the way I suggest the object of the
Under the bill, as it stands, measures to hon. and learned member, Dr. Cockburn,
prevent the introduction of tick will be
will be met; but if it is not met I will
beyond the powers of the states to enact.
undertake to deal with the matter in any
Under the American Constitution, full
way that he suggests.
power is given to provide against the in-
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : I am quite
troduction of tick into a state; but if in
satisfied !
preventing the introduction of tick or
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
other disease, an undue interference with
the course of trade is created, which pro- [12:56]: Will the hon. and learned mem-
ber also take note in this connection of
tects one state against the other states, the
courts will interfere, and say that the law
the concluding words of clause 95? That
is unconstitutional and void. I think that
clause must be brought into accord with
clause 89 as antended. I would also point
the course of leaving this matter to the
out with regard to the word "country
Drafting Committee to consider is the
correct one.
that some little difference of opinion may
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
arise as to the meaning of that word. The
Wales) [12:53]: I intimated a little earlier
sub-clause relates to “countries” and to
"states."
- States
we know are such
-I do not know that the hon, and learned
member, Dr. Cockburn, heard me—that I
parts of Australia as are within the com-
intended to make clause 89 read in this
monwealth. If any colony stands out it
way:
be a little doubtful whether it will be
may
So soon as uniform duties of customs have
"country.” Would Queensland, if it
been imposed, trade and intercourse throughout
stood out, be a "country"?
a
t
[Mr. Higgins.
Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.) Australia Bill. 1065
ex-
ex-
The Hon. R. E. O'Connor: A territory Wollaston ; Deputy Commissioner of Taxes,
would be either a state of the common- Mr. Bruford ; Accountant of the Trea-
wealth, or another country !
sury, Mr. S. T. Allen; Acting Account-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The word ant, Post and Telegraph Department, Mr.
"country" might mean an independent Cumming; Assistant Government Statist, ,
state.
Mr. Fenton. At the request of the Go-
The Hon. E. BARTON : I will keep the vernment they drew up a report which
matter in mind, though I fancy it is all will be found valuable, in connection with
right!
the financial proposals generally. On this
Sub-clause I agreed to.
particular clause there is a very full re-
[The Chairman left the chair at 12:58 p.m. The
ference to the meaning of the word “
Committee resumed at 2 p.m.]
cise.” At the present day the word "
Sub-clause 2. Customs and excise and boun-
cise” has a very much wider meaning
ties, but so that duties of customs and excise and than we intend in this bill. It includes
bounties shall be uniform throughout the com- in England all auctioneers' licenses, gun
monwealth, and that no tax or duty shall be
licenses, licenses of various descriptions,
imposed on any goods exported from one state
to another :
taxes on carriages.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council The Hon. E. BARTON : Does it not in-
of New South Wales:
clude those by definition ?
To leave out the words Customs and excise
and bounties, but."
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I do not
The Hon. E. BARTON: It was in- think so. What we intend by excise would
tended by this amendment to make sub-
be covered by the definition in this report,
clauses 1 and 2 read together in this way:
a duty chargeable on the manufacture
The regulation of trade and commerce with
and production of commodities.” The word
other countries, and among the several states; is variously defined in standard dictionaries.
so tlrat duties of customs and excise and bounties
We should give attention to this matter,
shall be uniform throughout the commonwealth,
so as not to be carried further than we
and that no tax or duty shall be imposed on any
goods exported from one state to another.
intend to go. In modern times, excise is
used as a very wide term.
The object was to confine the regulation
of trade and commerce to the enforcement
The Hon. E. BARTON : In the American
of uniformity in duties. That was one
Constitution do they not use the words
r customs and excise "?
reason; but I am bound to say that there
was another reason. It was stated by one
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I do not
or more gentlemen concerned in the amend- think so in this sense. They get all their
ment, that it was the preliminary step powers under the heading “regulation of
to the prevention of the commonwealth commerce with foreign nations and among
having anything to do with the collection the several states."
of customs duties.
The Hon. E. BARTON : May I refer the
The Hon. I.. A. ISAACS (Victoria) hon. member to the second part of the first
[2.2]: I wish to draw attention to the paragraph of section 8 of the United
very important question of excise. A States Constitution, in which it is provided
very valuable report has been drawn up that duties, imposts, and excises shall be
in Victoria by an Accountants Committee, uniform throughout the United States ? It
composed of gentlemen of considerable is quite clear that the word “excises ” is
experience and recognised worth, namely,
used there in the sense of excise on the
the Secretary for Trade and Customs, manufacture of commodities. It has been
4 E
1066
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897. .
sure.
held all along that it does not interfere The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Would that
with the regulation of trade by way of be objectionable?
licenses by the states.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: An export
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: The word duty could not be imposed on goods coming
rexcise” has a different meaning I am from one state and not on the same goods
It is called in some work "internal coming from another state.
revenue.” The word “excise,” as used in The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : An export
the American Constitution at that time, duty would not, I take it, be customs. It
would probably have a very different mean- would hardly be excise, and it would not
ing from what we now understand by it. I be a bounty. I will not be here to-mor-
should like to direct the hon. member's at- row, and perhaps I may be permitted to
tention to the latter part of the sub-clause. draw attention to clause 106. That clause
After stating that the customs, excise, and would not, under the decisions of the United
bounties should be in the competency of States courts, apply to any exports or im-
the federal parliament, and providing for ports between states. It applies solely to
uniformity, it goes on to say, "and that imports and exports as between the com-
no tax or duty shall be imposed on any monwealth and foreign countries. It is
goods exported from one state to another.” important to remember that. In connec-
A little difficulty exists in the minds tion, too, with what the hon. member,
of some people as to what relation that Dr. Cockburn, said this morning, it would
bears to customs, excise, and bounties. It hardly apply to meet the case he wanted
would be worth considering whether it as between the colonies ; but under a well-
should be placed under that provision at known decision of the United States courts
all. In the United States it is under it is restricted to the case of imports from
another department altogether and has a abroad.
different relation. The provision there is
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: How will
in section 9 of article 1, sub-clause 5. that limit the construction so that it will
That sub-clause is included among the apply only to exports to foreigri countries,
powers which are denied to the United and not to a state?
States; that is to say, powers which are The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The history
expressly kept back from the federal par- of the case to which I refer was gone into
liament, and it is intended to say to them, by a learned judge—Justice Miller. He
“While you have in general terms plenary said that the reason of it was this: that a
powers as to commerce between the various state was not to be allowed to levy any
states and between the states and other charge upon goods coming into the com-
countries, yet you must not put on an ex- monwealth from abroad, except for the
port duty in respect of any goods exported purpose of executing the inspection laws
from a state, no matter to what place the of the state; that it was part and parcel
exportation goes. Putting the provision of the United States Constitution ; that
in this place may be the means of giving in no case should a state have the right
it a different meaning. First of all, it is to put a duty on as between itself and any
limited to goods exported from one state other states; but it had a right to protect
to another, so that it would be open to itself from imports from foreign countries,
put an export duty on goods going, say, so far as was necessary to execute its police
from South Australia to England or to powers. He went into the history of the
any other place not being in the common- whole matter. It would take up too much
wealth.
time to go through it now; but I will give
t
[The Hon. I. 4. Isaacs.
Commonwealth of
1067
[22 SEPT., 1897.
Australia Bill.
my hon. and learned friend the name of matters. The first part of his remark,
the case and the reference, and he will taken in connection with the able paper
find from the judgment that the whole which has been written by the hon. gen-
matter is dealt with in a masterly manner,
tleman whom he named, will, I think, be
historically and legally.
a great assistance to the Convention. As
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Will the hon. far as the drafting matter is concerned, I
member point out any objection to a state think we may promise that we will see if
being allowed to impose an export duty on there is any necessity to give any defini-
its own products, so long as between the tion of the meaning of the word "excise.”
states the interchange on that product is In the paper from which my hon. friend
free?
has quoted, I find this passage :
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: There is no In the earliest English excise ordinance, intro-
case that I know of where the state would duced by Pym, in 1643, the excise duty imposed
be allowed to impose an export duty.
was on the manufacture of commodities; but
since that date there have been constant addi-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Is there any
tions to the taxable list.
reason why it should not be so ?
That is illustrated by references to the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : It would
interfere with the commerce as between
cases in English legislation, in which the
name of “excise" has been applied, even
the commonwealth and other countries, or
to such cases as licenses granted to auc-
between the state and other states, and the
tioneers. The paper goes on to say:
object of the Commonwealth Bill here, as
of the United States Constitution there, in
Although in Great Britain the original mean-
ing of the word is being restored to that which
respect of trade and commerce, is to have
it bore in Pym's ordinance—and the substitution
uniformity of trade as soon as that trade of Inland Revenue Commissioners for Excise
ceases to be confined to the limits of the
Commissioners is evidence of this yet the mean-
particular state. In relation to other coun-
ing is not sufficiently certain to allow of the
word standing without a definition, and we would
tries, the United States is one. In relation
suggest that it should be defined as follows :-
to the other states, no state is to get a
** Excise 'shall mean the duty chargeable on the
preference; therefore, it is, in fact, accord-
manufacture and production of commodities.”
ing to the constitution itself, and according They go on to show that, in all the tables
to the decisions, undoubted law that as they use, they have adopted that mean-
long as the state commerce is internal no ing. I am rather under the impression
one has a right to say that it shall not be that, looking at the interpretations which
under the control of the state.
have been given to excise in the sense
as, it ceases to be confined to the state in which that term is used in the Consti-
itself it then comes under the general tution of the United States—and we know
supervision of the national government. that the meaning given to it has been
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : It would such as not to interfere with the regula-
take away the power to make commercial tion of their own internal concerns by the
treaties if one state had a right to impose states on such matters as the granting of
an export duty!
licenses to hawkers, auctioneers, and so
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Yes. I have on—I am rather of the opinion that the
made these observations because it seemed use of the word as it occurs in this bill
to me important to bearthe matter in mind. will be held to carry with it the same
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South meaning; but, if on consideration we find
Wales) [2.17]: I am very much obliged there is any doubt about that, I think it
to the hon, member for pointing out these will be a comparatively easy matter to
As soon
of any state.'
1068 Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.1 Australia Bill.
provide for it. I quite recognise the force The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
of the remarks of the hon. member with (Western Australia) 2.21): The reason
regard to clause 106.
why this proposal came from the Legisla-
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : I may mention tive Assembly of Western Australia was
that the cases to which I refer are those that there seemed to be a general opinion
of Woodruff versus Parham (8 Wall.123), thatpostaland telegraph matters inside the
and Brown versus Houston (114 U. S. colony could be better managed by the
Ref.). The first case is the one, if I re-
local government than by the federal go-
member rightly, in which Justice Miller vernment, especially at the present time,
delivered judgments showing the whole of and for many years to come.
I do not
the reasons.
mean to say that if we were a settled
Amendment negatived; sub-clause 2
country, with all our telegraph lines built,
agreed to.
or the main portion of them, there would
be any necessity for this proposal. But,
Sub-clause 3. Raising money by any other mode
or system of taxation ; but so that all such taxa-
seeing that these colonies are only in their
tion shall be uniform throughout the common-
infancy, and that their post and telegraph
wealth.
systems are part of the social life of the
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
community, it seemed to us that to intrust
of New South Wales :
That sub-clause 3 be omitted.
to a far away authority the building of
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
telegraph lines and the extension of postal
Wales) [219]: This is another matter in
services, would be most vexatious. When
we wanted to build a line of telegraph
which the Legislative Council of New
South Wales were under the impression
for a distance of 10 or 12 miles, or to
that too much revenue-raising power would
establish a new post office, perhaps only
be given to the commonwealth, and that
a dozen miles away from an existing post-
the result would be over - taxation. I
office, it would be obviously inconvenient
to have to communicate with the central
urged, without avail, that, if the common-
wealth had to raise a certain amount of
government. It seemed to us that to
money, if it had not the right to raise it
intrust local requirements of that kind-
by other sources of revenue than customs,
what might be called every day occur-
it would still raise the same amount, and
rences—to a far away authority would be
the aggregate of taxation would be the vexatious, and lead to a great deal of
same, but that argument did not prevail.
friction. Although there may, perhaps,
Amendment negatived ; sub-clause 3
be some objection to this proposal, still, I
feel sure that in all the colonies, and espe-
agreed to.
Sub-clause 4 (Borrowing money on the
cially in the colony I represent, there is a
public credit of the commonwealth) agreed
very strong feeling that we should not
hand over the local post and telegraph ser-
to.
vices to the control of the commonwealth.
Sub-clause 5. Postal, telegraphic, telephonic,
and other like services.
We quite admit that it is of national im-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
portance that there should be a federal
bly of South Australia :
union in regard to the post and telegraph
At end of sub-clause add, "outside the limits
services, and, as a matter of fact, such a
of the cominonwealth.'
union now exists. As far as the common-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem-
bly of Western Australia :
wealth is concerned, it is not necessary
At end of sub-clause add, “outside the limits
to have a federal government in order to
federalise the post and telegraph services,
1
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth of
1069
[22 SEPT., 1897.)
Australia Bill.
because they are federalised at the present
NOES.
time. There is a thorough understand-
Abbott, Sir Joseph Howe, J. H.
Barton, E.
Isaacs, I. A.
ing, not only between these colonies, but
Berry, Sir G.
Leake, G.
throughout the whole of the British Em-
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. Lewis, N. E.
pire, and indeed I may say throughout Brown, N. J. Lyne, W. J.
the world, in regard to the post and tele-
Brunker, J. N. O'Connor, R. E.
Deakin, A.
Quick, Dr. J.
graph services. Everyone knows of the
Dobson, H.
Solomon, V. L.
Postal Union, and I think every one of the Glynn, P. M.
Symon, J. H.
colonies is now embraced in that union. Hackett, J. W. Zeal, Sir W. A.
So that there would be no advantage in a
Henning, A. H.
Henry, J.
Teller,
federal control of the post and telegraph Higgins, H. B. Walker, J. T.
services, because in this respect we are Question so resolved in the negative.
already federalised.
But while we are Sub-clause 5 agreed to.
federalised, and have all the advantages of
Sub-clause 6. The military and naval defence
federal union in regard to postal matters, of the commonwealth and the several states and
money orders, and all things appertaining the calling out of the forces to execute and
to that service, still we have complete con-
maintain the laws of the commonwealth.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
trol over our own telegraph system, the
sembly of South Australia :
building of telegraphs, and the arrange-
Transpose words “ military” and “naval.”
ment of our postal services. For my part,
The Hon. E. BARTON: This is a
I see no reason why the present system
matter, I think, which it would be well to
should not continue, as it works exceed-
leave to the Drafting Committee.
ingly well, and there is no friction between
Sub-clause agreed to.
the colonies with regard to postal matters. Sub-clause 8 agreed to.
They have conferences now and again to
Sub-clause 9. Ocean beacons and buoys, and
arrange matters, and I see no reason why
ocean lighthouses and lightships.
the present system should not continue,
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As-
instead of the service being handed over sembly of Tasmania :
to the federal government. There may be Omit " ocean," wherever occurring.
reasons why it should be part of the federal The Hon. N. J. BROWN (Tasmania)
machinery. If that is the case, the only [2:32]: The reasons given, I believe, for
course open to us is to ask that the federal
omitting the word “ ocean were placed
government shall have power only outside before the Tasmanian legislature by a
the limits of the commonwealth, and nautical gentleman who has taken part in
should have no authority within the states, several conferences on lighthouses and
with regard to these matters.
other matters under the control of the
Question-That the words proposed Marine Board. He pointed out that it
to be added · (South Australian amend- was absolutely impossible to define what
ment) be so added-put. The Committee was an ocean light and what was not.
divided :
The Hon. E. BARTON : I presume the
Ayes, 10; noes, 24; majority, 14.
word " ocean" is used to make a distinction
between ocean and river beacons !
Briggs, H.
Kingston, C. C.
The Hon. N. J. BROWN: The gentle-
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G. man to whom I refer, a member of the
Douglas, A.
Venn, H. W.
Marine Board at Hobart, said that he had
Forrest, Sir J.
Gordon, J. H.
Teller,
coine to the conclusion, which I have men-
Holder, F. W.
Crowder, F. T.
tioned, as the result of the experience of
زر
AYES.
1070
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
the board-that often what was from one The Hon. J. HENRY : Are they ocean
point of view a river beacon or light was beacons ?
from another point of view an ocean light,
Mr. SOLOMON : Yes !
and vice versa. He said that if it were in-
The Hon. J. HENRY: I was not aware
tended to place all these matters under the of that. There is a number of beacons in
control of the federal authority, as he pre- Port Philip, which may be regarded as an
sumed it was, he recommended strongly inland sea, and it would be most difficult
for the reasons I have given that the word in that case to distinguish them from ocean
• ocean" should be struck out. I do not beacons. The commission to which I refer
profess to have any technical knowledge of found it so difficult to distinguish between
the subject. I simply state the reasons
ocean and harbour lights that they gave
which were advanced for striking out the the thing up in despair.
word,
The Hon. E. BARTON : When was their
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN (South Aus- report presented ?
tralia) (2:34] : I think this amendment is The Hon. J. HENRY: Some three or
quite right. We hope to see some of our four years ago, I understand. The report
navigable rivers, if not the whole of them, was not printed; but I think the papers
under the control of the commonwealth, are available in this colony. A similar
and the clause as it stands would limit difficulty to that experienced by this com-
too strictly the definition. The common- mission of experts may be experienced by
wealth would not be able to interfere with the federal parliament when they come to
some small buoy or beacon on some out inquire into what are ocean and what are
of the way stream unless the stream was harbour lights, and also as to what are
under its control, and if the stream were ocean buoys and beacons. If there be any
under its control it would be necessary ocean beacons in Torres Straits, the federal
that it should have control of buoys and parliament might have control of them;
beacons.
but if you take the ordinary buoys and
The Hon. J. HENRY (Tasmania)[2.35]: beacons in Port Phillip, for instance, which
I think this amendment deserves some is an inland sea, they should be under the
consideration. I very much regret that control of the local marine authorities. I
the right hon, the Premier of New South think it would be better to strike out the
Wales did not comply with my suggestion word “ocean" altogether, and to allow
that the report of a commission of marine the federal parliament to take over the
experts dealing with this question, which control of all lighthouses. It is obvious
was presented some three or four years that buoys and beacons can be best man-
ago, should be laid upon the table. In that aged and controlled by the local marine
report the marine experts say that they authorities. I forget what the figures
experienced the greatest difficulty in dis- were; but I think it was found that there
tinguishing between what were ocean were 200 or 300 lighthouses in regard to
lights and what were harbour lights. As which the commission was unable to dis-
to buoys and beacons, I fail to see why the tinguish and separate harbour from ocean
federal government should have control lights.
over buoys and beacons at all. I am not
The Hon. A. DOUGLAS (Tasmania)
aware of any ocean buoys and beacons. [2:38]: I am afraid the same difficulty
All that I am acquainted with are con- will arise if you strike out the word
fined to harbours.
ocean."
Ocean buoys and beacons are
Mr. SOLOMON: No, take Torres Straits ! properly in the hands of the federal go-
[The Hon. N. J. Brown.
Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
1071
vernment; but it is not intended that they can make provision by way of setting
their control shall apply to harbours. In
up
beacons for guidance by day or night,
Tasmania, we have some navigable rivers. and lights for night. The proper source
At the heads are what may be termed of revenue from which to make these pro-
ocean lights; but, if you take the Tamar visions for the lighting of harbours and
from beginning to end of the 30 or 40 rivers. are the dues derived for the use
miles of river, you will find a number of of the harbours and rivers, and as these
buoys and beacons. There is one almost reinain in the hands of the states, it is
every half mile or mile, and it seems ab- right that the states should undertake
surd that these should be handed over to the slight burden of lighting, as a mat-
the federal government. On the other ter of internal concern, its harbours and
hand, ocean lights are easily defined. On rivers, whilst the external provision for
going up Port Phillip Bay, you find buoys enabling the commerce of the common-
and beacons in all directions, and surely wealth to reach the commonwealth is a
they are not to be put under the federal matter of regulation that may fairly be
government? They should be under the left to the commonwealth. I do not think
local barbour trust. The gentleman at that with lines of demarcation of that
whose instance this amendment has been kind there will be any serious difficulty in
made-who professes to be a navigator— saying what an ocean light or what a har-
has had some little difficulty in connection bour light is. The difficulty that now
with these matters in connection with the arises is because experts in this, as in
Marine Board. These are really local mat- everything else, are in the habit of run-
ters, and can only be effectually managed ning away from a common-sense view of
by the local harbour trust. This question matters.
was well considered by a portion of the Amendment negatived ; sub-clause 9
Tasmanian Parliament, who could not agreed to.
agree with the suggestion made by the Sub-clause 10_Astronomical and mete-
Legislative Assembly. I hope that the orological observations-agreed to.
word "ocean" will not be struck out.
Sub-clause ll. Quarantine.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New
Wales) (2:41]: The insertion of the word South Wales) [2:43]: I think there is a
ocean" is intended to preserve the line matter connected with this clause which
of demarcation that generally exists be- deserves consideration. In the first place,
tween federal powers and state powers, we ought to be clear in our minds what we
the commonwealth being intrusted with intend to cover by the word “quarantine."
matters that are external, and matters of The word “quarantine" in its original
internal regulation being intrusted to the meaning no doubt applied only to the quar-
several states. I take it that an ocean antine of ships—the quarantine of forty
light is such a light as enables a ship to days required under the old laws for the
find her way on the ocean when she is purification of a ship from disease. But
trying to make port. We are leaving the I think the meaning of quarantine has
control of, and the revenue from, services gradually extended much beyond that, and
connected with this matter in the hands the word is now applied to an enclosure
of the states. Any dues that may be col- to prevent diseases that have been con-
lected for the use of their harbours belong tracted on board ship from spreading to
to them, and the same as regards the the land. It means general powers of isola-
rivers, and it is out of that revenue that tion in all cases. I think we ought, in
1072
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
the first place, to decide whether we intend or spread within the states themselves-
to interfere with the general health powers which is a matter that ought to be dealt
which the states now possess, and ought, with by the health authorities of each state
perhaps, to retain, or only with those -and diseases that arose outside, which un-
matters which are generally spoken of as doubtedly could be dealt with properly only
marine quarantine. The question is whether by one authority for the whole common-
we should give power to the commonwealth wealth. In the first place, as far as policy
under any circumstances to legislate in re- is concerned, that is a matter for the Com-
gard to those matters that belong to the mittee to decide. If hon. members decide
care of the public health in the different as to policy, then how it is to be expressed
states?
is more or less a matter of drafting. But if
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : They would the matter is considered worthy of con-
not do that, unless they thought that the sideration, I will move the insertion of the
health of other states was concerned ! words I have suggested.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : This is The Hon. I. A. ISAACS (Victoria)
one of those cases in which we should first
[2:48] : I hope that the hon. and learned
of all decide on a policy, and then make a member will not move an amendment to
definite provision. As to what the policy that effect.
that effect. I think that the meaning of
should be, it appears to me that the com- the word “quarantine" is pretty well
monwealth power should extend only to known. There is no doubt that leav-
those matters that affect the health of the ing the sub-clause as it is preserves to
commonwealth from outside. Therefore I
every state the power that it now has to
am prepared to move :
make laws in relation to all such subjects.
That the word “quarantine" be omitted with It does not vest an exclusive power in the
a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “pub-
lic health in relation to infection or contagion
commonwealth to pass such laws. The
from outside the commonwealth."
state can pass its own law, and alter it as
I will point out one reason why a provi- it pleases; but I think it is well to do as
sion of that kind is necessary. Suppos-
was done in the Canadian act in that re-
ing that all the colonies were not included spect to give a power which the common-
in the federation, you might have small- wealth might, in case of emergency, em-
pox, or some other contagious disease, in ploy for the sake of the general health-
one colony which was not in the federa- power to make a law respecting quaran-
tion, and along the whole line of the tine, as it is generally understood, so as
boundary it would be necessary to make to preserve all the ports of the common-
exactly similar provisions to those which wealth, not only from infection from
would have to be made at the seaports. abroad, but also from the danger of any
Now, under the head of “quarantine ” I
infection which might have reached one
doubt very much whether such a power port of the commonwealth spreading to the
would be included; whereas if you say that rest of the commonwealth. I think that
the power is to be over matters connected there is no great harm in retaining the
with the "public health in relation to in- word “quarantine," and that, if we were
fection or contagion from outside the com-
to eliminate this word, the day might come
monwealth," you state accurately what when we would very much regret having
you mean. It appears to me that those
words cover every possible case you want The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : The sub-
to deal with, and would make a line of clause as it stands now provides for the
demarcation between diseases that arose quarantine of animals !
done so.
[The Hon. R. E. O'Connor.
Commonwealth of
1073
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I believe it The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South
would include the quarantine of animals Australia) [2:55]: The argument which
if those animals when slaughtered would was used in support of the suggested
go into consumption as food, and might amendment was that no coherent or con-
thereby affect the public health.
sistent control of fisheries in a river could
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : What about be exercised by any one state where that
the quarantine of dogs ?
river ran through two or more states.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I think that Question-That the words proposed to
the federal parliament should have the be added be so added--put. The Com-
power to deal with this matter if it thinks mittee divided :
fit to do so. While the states might be Ayes, 13; noes, 19; majority, 6.
left to protect themselves, surely no harm
AYES.
would be done if we enabled the federal
Brown, N. J.
Howe, J. H.
Cockburn, Dr. J. A. Kingston, C. C.
parliament to do more than any state could
Crowder, F. T. Lee-Steere, Sir J. G.
do, that is, give protection to the whole Downer, Sir J. W. Quick, Dr. J.
commonwealth.
Forrest, Sir J.
Solomon, V. L.
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
Glynn, P. M.
Teller,
Holder, F. W.
Gordon, J. H.
(Tasmania) (2:52]: At the present time
Noes.
an arrangement has been come to by the
Abbott, Sir Joseph Isaacs, I. A.
joint action of the various colonies in re- Barton, E.
Lewis, N. E.
gard to the quarantine of animals. The
Berry, Sir G.
Lyne, W. J.
Braddon, Sir E. N. C. O'Connor, R. E.
inspectors of stock meet from time to time,
Brunker, J. N. Symon, J. E.
and agree to regulations which are after- Carruthers, J. H. Venn, H. W.
wards enforced by their various govern-
Deakin, A.
Walker, J. T.
ments.
Dobson, H.
Zeal, Sir W. A.
Hackett, J. W.
Teller,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But any one of
Higgins, H. B. Wise, B. R.
the colonies may at any time withdraw
Question so resolved in the negative.
from the compact !
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON :
(South Australia) (2:58]: I should like to
Of course it is not desirable that
suggest to the Drafting Committee that they
any colony should withdraw.
might consider a couple of points in connec-
The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. and tion with this sub-clause. The first is the
learned member, Mr. O'Connor, intend to substitution of the word “Australasia” for
move an amendment?
the word - Australia." "Australasia" is
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: No. I see the term generally employed throughout
that there is sufficient reason for leaving the bill. The other point, which is more
the words in the clause. I drew attention
important, is that some provision might be
to the matter because I thought it was inserted defining the term “Australasian
worthy of consideration, and when we
waters. I do not know if the hon. and
meet again perhaps some improvement learned member, Mr. Barton, is satisfied in
may be suggested.
his own mind as to what meaning would be
Sub-clause 11 agreed to.
attached to the term. I think that there
Sub-clause 12 (Fisheries in Australian waters was some provision in connection with the
beyond territorial limits).
Federal Council by which, under an im-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
perial order, these waters were defined;
of South Australia :
Add "and in rivers which flow through or in
and legislation was adopted by the colony
two or more states."
of Western Australia and Queensland in
Yes.
1074
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
the exercise of powers conferred on the Australia, and the Council of Tasmania,
council in regard to these matters. The have suggested amendments which, al-
clause applies only to matters beyond terri- though not in the same words, are prac-
torial limits, which increases the difficulty. tically identical.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
Wales) [2-59]: This is a matter of very South Wales) [3.2]: I trust the Commit-
great difficulty, and it may be that it will tee will agree to the amendment suggested
have to be provided for by a definition. by four parliaments of five of the colonies.
However, the subject will come under the If hon, members will look at sub-clause 16
consideration of the Drafting Committee, with regard to insurance, it will be found
and I hope some more concise provision that the draft bill provides for insurance,
may be determined upon. The existing excluding state insurance not extending
provision seems to me a possible source of beyond the limits of the state concerned. .
confusion.
So that in the next sub-clause, the prin-
Mr. SOLOMON (South Australia) [3]: fciple which is being contended for in the
Is the hon. and learned member, Mr. proposed amendment is practically con-
Barton, aware what the international law ceded. We know that state banking is
is with regard to these fisheries? I men- coming into favour in the Australasian
tion it specially because in the northern colonies. It is not proposed to interfere
portion of Australia, when pearling boats with federal control of state banking when
proceed from Thursday Island and Port it goes beyond the limits of the state con-
Darwin to the coasts of New Guinea and cerned. It seems to me to be purely a
Macassar, the Dutch men-of-war interfere matter of state concern when the banking
with vessels outside an 8 or 10 miles limit is limited to the state. As the proposal
of the coast. I would ask attention to be has been suggested by four colonies I shall
given to the question as to what should be content myself with supporting the amend-
the limit of Australasian controlin adjacent ment, and I shall call for a division upon it,
waters, and information might be obtained The CHAIRMAN : Perhaps I ought to
as to the exercise of authority by those point out that there is a substantial dif-
foreign nations in the waters adjacent to ference between the suggestions of the
their coasts,
Victorian and South Australian Parlia-
Sub-clause 12 agreed to.
ments, on the one hand, and those of New
Sub-clauses 13 and 14 agreed to. South Wales and Tasmania, on the other.
Sub-clause 15. Banking, the incorporation of
In the one case, state banks are excluded
banks, and the issue of paper money.
simply; in the other, state banks are ex-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem- cluded when they do not extend beyond
bly of New South Wales, and the Legislative the limits of the states concerned. I will
Council of Tasmania :
put the question in this form:
After “banking” insert "excluding state
banking not extending beyond the limits of the That the following words be inserted after the
state concerned."
word “ banking," "excluding state banking.'
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Assem- If that is carried, the remaining words
bly of Victoria, and the Legislative Council of
may be inserted.
South Australia :
After banking” insert “excluding state
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
banks."
(Western Australia) [3.6]: We have in our
The CHAIRMAN : On this sub-clause the colony what we call an agricultural bank,
Assembly of New South Wales, the As- established for the purpose of encourag-
sembly of Victoria, the Council of South ing the cultivation and improvement of
[The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston.
Commonwealth of
1075
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
the land, and to make advances to farmers. ment business. I examined the constitution
Would that be regarded as a state bank? of all the banks in 1891 in connection withi
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : Is it a the establishment of a state bank, and I
Government bank ?
found that there was not in the world an
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: institution that could be called purely a
Yes ; under a statute.
state bank. The bank in South Australia is
The Hon. Sir J: W. DOWNER : Then, it not a state bank. It is simply established
is a state bank !
under an act of parliament, for the pur-
The Hon. E. BARTON : We might say, pose of acting as a medium between bor-
“ banks that advance the moneys of the rowers and lenders. The government has
state"!
some control over the board, and eventu-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: ally the mortgage bonds are guaranteed by
I am sure no one wants to interfere with the government. It is not a state bank,
these local institutions established for state because the state receives no profit. Con-
purposes only.
sidering that there has been no purely state
Mr. WALKER : I would suggest that we bank established, if we put these words, a
should ask the Drafting Committee to “state bank,” into the constitution, it will
carry out a suggestion made by Sir Samuel be inferred that we intend to include these
Griffith with regard to state banking ! imperfect government banks, which are a
The Hon. E. BARTON: The Drafting cross between an ordinary bank and a state
Committee will consider that!
bank. If we leave the clause as it stands,
The Hon. C. H. GRANT was under- we shall be led into all sorts of difficulties
stood to say that he hoped the Committee and possible litigation.
would accept the proposed amendment. Mr. SYMON: The difficulty might be got
State banking was one of the most import- over by leaving out the words proposed to
ant matters that the individual states
be inserted, and by adding at the end of
could deal with. He hoped the Committee the sub-clause the words that it shall not
would give the states a free hand, as far as apply to any banking operations carried
possible, in dealing with their own banks.
on by the state.
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [3.8] : The Hon. E. BARTON : Suppose they
Unless we have a definition of the words issue paper money ?
"state bank” there will be a great deal of Mr. SYMON : We might provide that it
trouble. In no country in the world is there shall not apply to any banking operations
a real state bank. The Bank of France
carried on by the state except the issue of
not a real state bank. The directorate,
paper money.
whose appointment is partly controlled Question resolved in the affirmative.
by the government, exercise certain rights Amendment agreed to.
under charter. They can issue notes, and Question—That the words "not extend-
they have other privileges. The German ing beyond the limits of the states con-
bank is not a state bank. It has certain cerned" be inserted resolved in the affir-
privileges, and enters into contracts with mative.
the government, and it is regulated by Sub-clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
act of parliament. We know the Bank of Sub-clause 16. Insurance, excluding state in-
England is not a state bank. It has the surance vot extending beyond the limits of the
exclusive right to issue notes within a
state concerned,
certain distance of London, the issue being
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Counci
of New South Wales :
regulated by charter. It has certain other
Before "Insurance" first occurring insert“As.
rights including the transaction of govern-
surance and.'
1076
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.1
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South The Hon. J. H. GORDON: And the
Wales)[3.12] : The reason that this amerd hospitals. The control of lunacy necessarily
ment was proposed was because of a doubt includes. the accommodation for lunatics.
entertained by the gentleman who moved Unless the buildings are handed over to
it as to whether assurance
was not the the federal parliament, I fail to see how
proper term to apply to policies upon lives. that authority can exercise any power over
I do not know that there is very much in the inmates thereof.
it. We know that the ordinary applica- The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
țion of the term "assurance” is to life South Wales) (3.16]: This proposal is not
insurance, and the ordinary application of one to give exclusive right to the federal
the term “insurance” is to fire and marine parliament in regard to lunacy matters at
insurance. At the same time, I have not all. It is only a proposal to empower the
any doubt in my own mind that the word federal parliament, where it becomes a
as originally used covers the whole case. matter of federal concern, to legislate in
Amendment negatived.
regard to lunacy. Hon. members--especi-
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council ally those who have held executive office
of New South Wales :
—know that the lunacy question is one
Omit "excluding state insurance not extend- which has to be dealt with outside the
ing beyond the limits of the state concerned.”
limits of a particular colony—that the
Amendment negatived.
question of lunacy is one that affects the
Sub-clause 16 agreed to.
colonies not so much with regard to the
Mr. HIGGINS (Victoria) [3.13]: I
lunatics within those colonies, as with re-
should like to remind hon, members that
gard to those who come from one colony to
in Adelaide I moved the insertion of a
the other. The federal government requires
clause as to conciliation and arbitration in
the power to pass laws with respect to a
connection with industrial pursuits. I do
matter of that character. If afterwards it
not intend to push that matter now. I
is deemed wise that the federal government
think it is desirable to avoid contentious
shall go further than that, it will be a
matter as much as possible, but I wish to
matter for the federal government and
intimate that at the adjourned meeting in
the states themselves to deal with.
Melbourne it is my intention to make an
effort to enable the federal parliament to
would be a great pity to tie the hands of
establish councils of conciliation and arbi-
the federal government by the want of a
It is not pro-
tration with regard to industrial pursuits · power of this character.
which are not confined to any one colony. posed to ask for an exclusive power, but
Sub-clauses 17 and 18 agreed to.
simply for the power of legislation on the
subject when it may be deemed advisable.
Sub-clause 19 (Bankruptcy and insolvency).
I hope the amendment will be accepted.
Amendment suggested by the Legislative Council
What ground is there for handing over
and Legislative Assembly of New South Wales,
and by the Legislative Council of Tasmanici :
insolvency and bankruptcy, except for the
After “insolvency" insert "and lunacy." uniformity of laws ? Surely uniformity of
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
laws is desirable in regard to the matter,
tralia) (3:15]: I do not see how that can of lunacy. I take it that the exclu-
be allowed to pass. unless we also hand
sion of lunatics is as much a matter of
over to the federal parliament the control
federal concern as is the exclusion of,
of the lunatic asylums.
criminals.
The Hon. Dr. COCKBURN : And the The Hon. J. H. GORDON · (South
hospitals !
Australia) [3.17]: I think the question of
It
Commonwealth of
1077
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
a lunatic coming from one state to an- be involved in taking charge of this par-
other is a matter for the states themselves. ticular department of administration.
When I had the honor of being Chief Amendment negatived; sub-clause 19
Secretary we had great trouble with luna agreed to.
tics coming from New South Wales to Sub-clauses 20, 21, and 22 agreed to.
South Australia. It was a constant source Sub-clause 23 (Marriage and divorce).
of irritation between the officials of the Amendment suggested by the Legislative As.
two colonies. I am bound to say that I sembly of South Australia :
Omit the sub-clause,
think my friends are looking at the matter
Amendment suggested by the Legislative As.
from an exceedingly provincial point of
sembly of Tasmania:
view. I admit that the colony of New
Omit the sub-clause ; insert, “The status in
South Wales made a fair arrangement, by other states of the commonwealth of persons
which there was a small charge, involving
married or divorced in any state."
no profit to South Australia. We took Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [3.22]:
care of their lunatics, cured them, and sent There is a very strong opinion in South
them back, and, for all I know, some of Australia, and I believe it is shared by a
them may have become members of parlia- considerable number of the electors of the
ment.
proposed commonwealth, that this sub-
The Hon. J. H. CARROTHERS : That clause ought not to be kept in.
shows it is a federal matter !
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The hon.
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New South member voted for it in Adelaide !
Wales) [3.18]: We ought to be careful not Mr. GLYNN: I am representing the
to load the commonwealth with any more opinions of others rather than my own.
duties than are absolutely necessary. Al- There is a very strong objection in the
though it is quite true that this power is per- province of South Australia to bring down
missive, you will always find that if once the notion of the dissolubility of the mar-
power is given to the commonwealth to legis-' riage tie to the level to which it has come
late on a particular question, there will be in some of the other colonies. In 1892,
continual pressure brought to bear on the the legislature of New South Wales passed
commonwealth to exercise that power. The an amending divorce bill, by which the
moment the commonwealth exercises the
possibility of getting divorce was rendered
power, the states must retire from that field
exceedingly easy. That was followed in
of legislation. I quite agree with the hon. Victoria in 1893 by an act under which
member, Mr. Gordon, that it is impossible a man can get a divorce practically for
to deal with the question of lunacy apart habitual drunkenness, which might be de-
from the question of the cure and control fined as drunkenness evidenced by a series
of lunatics, and also the law relating to of convictions during six months, desertion
the disposal of the property of lunatics in for three years, and a certain amount of
the different states. It seems to me to be cruelty. If we take the period from 1886
entirely a matter of state concern.
to 1890, before these divorce laws were
quite aware that, in the interchange of enacted in New South Wales and Vic-
lunatics up to the present time, New South toria, we find that the number of divorces
Wales perhaps has not got the best of the in New South Wales was 210; in Vic-
bargain. But that, it appears to me, is a toria, 124; in Queensland, 26; in South
small matter compared with the inadvisa- Australia, 23; in Western Australia, 8;
bility of loading up the commonwealth in Tasmania, 15. Between 1891 and 1894,
unnecessarily with the powers which must instead of there being 210 divorces in New
I am
:
1078
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
South Wales, in that period there were
take is this: that very many persons in
841; in Victoria, 356, as against 124; South Australia object to the notion of the
and as regards the other colonies which marital tie being dragged down to the level
stick to the old notions of marriage-in of New South Wales. I do not wish to be
Queensland, 22 as against 26; in South offensive; but I make that observation
Australia, 25 as against 23; in Western because there is a very strong opinion
Australia, 8 as against 7; and in Tas- on the subject in South Australia. The
mania an increase from 15 to 17. If you chances are that the wishes of the house
come to 1894, the figures will show the of representatives, which will represent the
difference of opinion on this point in the colonies of New South Wales and Victoria,
various colonies. In 1894, there were will be those which will pass the legisla-
369 divorces in New South Wales, 87 tion. The number of representatives in
divorces in Victoria, only 6 divorces in the house of representatives will be very
Queensland, 5 divorces in South Australia, much greater for the larger colonies than
1 divorce in Western Australia, and 5 for the smaller colonies. The number
divorces in Tasmania.
which will represent the smaller colonies,
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : These laws or one or two of them, at all events in the
were introduced for the purpose of separ- senate, will scarcely have the power to
ating people who were not suited to each stay legislation if it be insisted on in the
other !
house of representatives. On the whole,
Mr. GLYNN: No matter what may I think, as there is not very much benefit
have been the intention in passing the to be gained by an assimilation of the laws
laws, I would point out that there has relating to divorce, we ought to strike
been an enormous increase in the num- out the sub-clause. It can only relate to
ber of divorces, consequent on the enact- divorce, because it has been decided in
ment of those laws in Victoria and New Canada that the uniformity of the solem-
South Wales; that the people in South nisation of marriage is not affected by the
Australia and several other colonies are provision relating to marriage and divorce.
pretty well satisfied with the obligation of You have to leave out the subject of mar-
the marriage-tie which at present exist. riage whether you like it or not, but you
I would also point out, if the question of need not include the subject of divorce
morality and respectability is concerned at unless you please.
all, that with the exception of the United Mr. WISE (New South Wales) [3.28]:
States, Denmark, and Switzerland, Austra- I think we ought to avoid, as far as pos-
lia, taking an average of the lot, is in the sible, introducing into the constitution
unenviable position of having the highest anything which is likely to cause a differ-
rate for divorces in the civilised world. ence between the commonwealth and the
Mr. WISE : They get married so much states, and this is emphatically one of those
quicker!
subjects about which stronger differences
Mr. GLYNN: The statistics do not of opinion may prevail in one part of the
bear the hon, member out, because Coghlan continent than those which prevail in the
shows that the number of marriages, accord- other, and if they do arise they are differ-
ing to population, is not so much greater. ences of opinion which no amount of argu.
Mr. WISE : I said " quicker"!
ment is likely to alter, because they are
Mr. GLYNN: The hon. member's gram-
based on sentiment and tradition. In a very
mar is not correct, so that I will not say able paper which has been circulated by
any more on that point. The position I Mr. A. I. Clark, and which most members
:
.
[Mr. Glynn.
Commonwealth of
1079
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bili.
of the Convention have seen, he calls atten- Mr. WISE: I dare say it would. But is
tion to the impracticability in Canada of there any solid advantage to be gained by
carrying into effect the corresponding pro- taking away from the states the right of
vision in the British North America Act. making their own laws on this particular
It is quite true that we do not have here subject. Should we not be raising difficul-
the great differences of sentiment in a mat- ties thatare endless, without gaining special
ter of this kind which exist between the advantage? If there is a common senti-
Catholic provinces and the Protestant pro- ment all over the community, there is no
vinces of Canada. We may have similar dif- subject upon which that common senti-
ferences of sentiment, perhaps on a smaller ment will make itself felt in the legis-
scale; and in all social questions such, for lature of the state more than in a matter
instance, as marriage, each community so closely affecting the social life as mar-
might be allowed to legislate according to riage and divorce. Uniformity—if there
its own ideas of right and wrong, always is any desire for uniformity-will come
preserving such supreme control on behalf naturally and speedily by itself, whereas
of the commonwealth as is necessary to any attempt to enforce uniformity, where
prevent scandals from people having one there is no desire for uniformity, may lead
status in one state and another status in to great difficulties, Seeing that there is
another state. I submit that the whole of no advantage to be gained by retaining
the objections which have been raised, very the sub-clause, while there is a risk of dis-
forcibly, by the hon, and learned member, advantages, I propose that we should strike
Mr. Glynn, in which I concur, will be met it out, and adopt the amendment of the
by striking out the words “marriage and parliament of Tasmania.
divorce," and adopting the amendment The Hon. C. H. GRANT (Tasmania)
suggested by the Parliament of Tasmania. [3.33]: It appears to me that the amend-
That will enable each colony to recognise ment of the sub-section agreed to by both
the laws as to marriage and divorce that houses of the legislature of Tasmania, as
may be passed by any other colony-to more clearly defining what is intended
recognise the judgment of the divorce by the use of the words "marriage and
court and the validity of the marriage. divorce," should be agreed to. The words
We may look forward to the time when as they stand are too general. But I do
those colonies will be split up.
Take an
not suppose it is proposed to use them to
illustration : Suppose we were to have a a greater extent than in the amendment.
settlement composed largely of Germans Each state has its own marriage laws.
or Italians, or a settlement composed They are not uniform, and it would be
largely of Anglicans, or of Catholics, or, at better for the present to leave the ex-
any rate, in which either of these denomi- ceedingly important question of the mar-
nations largely preponderated. In New
In New riage laws to each state. But it might
Zealand one of the provinces for many. be provided that the federal parliament,
years was composed almost exclusively of having the assent of the states, should
Anglicans, and another of Scotch Presby- eventually have the power to evolve an
terians, and we know that the ideas of uniform law of marriage. As regards di-
those communities on the subject of divorce vorce and the status of the parties affected
would be as wide apart as the poles. under the present laws, there cannot be a
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Would not doubt but that uniformity of proceeding
the amendment favour the formation of would be advantageous throughout the
suchi communities?
states, the law being framed on that of
1080
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897]
the colony that gives the greatest facilities New South Wales.
New South Wales. But that does not
for granting divorce, whenever reasonable appear to me to be a sufficient reason why
cause can be shown therefor. Since the uniformity in divorce laws—which means
law only recognises marriages as civil con- uniformity in the causes of divorce--should
tracts or partnerships, it would seem intoler- not obtain throughout the commonwealth.
able that when the partners can prove the
If there is one blot which stands out more
impossibility of their maintaining friendly than another in the American Constitu-
relations, they should be compelled by tion, it is that, by their Constitution, they
law to make a semblance of doing so, and are not able to deal with this question in
both lives be in effect wasted. For the a uniform way; and we all know that this
present the amendment proposed under has led to a condition of things socially of
which the status of parties married or a most deplorable character.
divorced could be made uniform through. Mr. SYMON: A scandal !
out the states would appear to provide for The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Persons
all requirements.
who, according to the law of the state in
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR (New which they reside, would have no chance
South Wales) [3.34]: The amendment of being divorced, may become domiciled
does not cover the same ground as the in another state by living there a certain
sub-clause. It covers only part of it, and time, and then, according to the laws of
if the sub-clauše is to contain the words that state, may obtain divorce for reason's
proposed, there will be no necessity for it. which, in their own state, would have been
What is meant by "the status in other ludicrous as a ground of divorce.
states of the commonwealth”? It simply The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : In some cases
means, as far as marriage is concerned, they may be divorced without a domicile !
that the form of marriage adopted in one The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : Yes;
state should be recognised as the form of but, in any case, either party to a mar-
marriage in another state. Considering riage, by coming under the laws of an-
what the form of marriage is in all the other state, may obtain a divorce under
states, that would be recognised at present. circumstances which would not justify the
With regard to the status of divorced per- divorce if he or she had remained in the
sons, there is very little advance made there original state. All these circumstances
either. It simply means that the judgment seem to me to point to the conclusion that,
of the divorce court shall be recognised in unless we wish to repeat in these commu-
each state, and the causes of divorce are of nities the condition of things which has ob-
such a character, even taking the most ex- tained in America, it is necessary to pro-
treme differences, that there would be no vide for uniformity in the law of divorce,
difficulty now in recognising in one state a and holding the views I do on this ques-
divorce granted in another. What we want tion, I hope that the result of a uniform
to get at is beyond all that. We want to law of divorce will be something consider-
bring about, not only a recognition of the ably better than the existing state of things
status, but a uniformity of the laws in re- -of which my hon. friend, Mr. Glynn,
gard to marriage and divorce, which is quite complained—that it will be a law which
a different thing. I agree to the fullest will représent the average sentiment of the
possible extent with what the hon. mem- whole community, and, after all, in matters
ber, Mr. Glynn, has said as to the facility of this kind, if we get the average sense of
with which divorce is obtainable under the community over whom the laws are to
certain laws, and particularly the laws of operate, we cannot very much complain.
[The Hon. C. H. Grant.
Commonwealth of
1081
[22 SEPT.,. 1897.]
Australia Bill.
If there is one subject more than another to tell them that. If they acquire domi- .
which should remain in the bill in its cile, the divorce will be good enough; but
present form, it is the sub-section with
in some cases they get divorce without ac-
which we are now dealing.
quiring domicile, and the result would be,
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South if the matter came to be questioned, that
Australia) [3:38]: I entirely agree with
the divorce would not be a divorce at all.
what my hon. and learned friend, Mr. The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The court has
O'Connor, has just said. I would ask lion. to be satisfied that there is a domicile !
members to recollect the view we bave The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: But
taken about the condition of the English if there were no genuine domicile, there
law with respect to marriage with a de-
would be no divorce. There is another
ceased wife's sister. I think every colony reason against the existence of different
has petitioned the English Parliament on
laws in different colonies. The arguments,
that:subject. I know that when we were
as far as I can see, are altogether one way.
at home in 1887, we all agreed in making I can understand the position of those
a particular request to the Imperial Go- who say there should not be divorce from
vernment to bring in an act to prevent the any cause at all ; but all that is past and
unpleasant and anomalous condition of the gone, and we will not allow the domina-
laws by which people married in the colo- tion of any church to interfere with these
nies, when they reached England, were not relations. And now that the whole of the
married. We only have to remember the
British dominions have recognised that
attitude we took when we were unanimous
there should be divorce for certain causes,
amongst ourselves against the mother colin- it becomes very important that, in all
try, which has a different line of legislation, English-speaking communities, we should
to understand that we ought to do that
have the law. uniform, as far as we can.
amongst ourselves which we wanted Eng- The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : This is only
land to do towards us. What subject is
that the federal parliament shall have the
more fitted for general legislation? In power!
what subject do we want a universal law
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is
more than that dealing with the most a highly proper power, and it will pra
sacred relations that concern not merely bably be exercised at the earliest possible
the individuals who are parties to the con:
moment.
tract, or whatever you please to call it, Mr. Wise: They will get into trouble
but also those who are to come afterwards? very quickly if they do exercise it !
Any one who seriously.considers the social
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : In my
feelings of pain and grief, and worry and opinion they will get into trouble if they
trouble caused by a differentiation of the
do not.
laws of the colonies, as between themselves, Mr. WISE: Why put in what will be a
on this most vital subject, must agree that source of strife?
something ought to be done to prevent the The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: I do
anomaly continuing. As the hon. and not think it will create the slightest trouble.
learned member; Mr: O'Connor; has said, I do not believe the cause of federation
we in the profession know what takes will lose a. vote through it. I do not be-
place. If a divorce cannot be obtained in lieve any man here or elsewhere will vote
Adelaide, we tell them to go somewhere against federation on account of this sub-
clse, and they go and acquire a domicile clause being put into the bill. I think it
there. I am not ashamed to have been one is a highly necessary one, and that it is
4 F
1032 Commonwealth of [22 SEPT., 1897.] Australia Bill.
.
more a matter for federal control than are
proposed by the legislative assemblies of
many other things which are contained in New South Wales and South Anstralia,
the bill.
and by the Council and Assembly of Tas-
Mr. GLYNN (South Australia) [3.44]: mania, that the sub-clause should be omit-
In England, Ireland, and Scotland there ted. I can apply no better arguments than
are three different laws as to divorce. those which the hon. and learned member,
There is none in Ireland ; there is divorce Mr. O'Connor, used just now with refer-
under certain conditions in England, and ence to lunacy. The hon. and learned wem-
under different conditions in Scotland. I ber said that where a permissive power was
think that tells largely against the position given there was pressure brought to bear
taken up by the Hon. Sir John Downer, for the exercise of that power, and that
Sub-clause 23 agreed to.
when it was exercised in one direction
Sub-clause 24. Parental rights and the cus-
pressure was brought to bear that it might
tody and guardianship of infants.
be exercised to the fullest extent. Apply-
The CHAIRMAN : The Legislative Assem- ing that argument to lunacy, if we had
blies of New South Wales and South Aus- this power exercised at all, we should find
tralia, and the Legislative Council of Tas- strong arguments used for the taking over
mania, hare suggested that this sub-clause of our lunatic asyluns. If the power in
be omitted.
this sub-clause were exercised at all, a
The Hon. J. H. HOWE (South Aus- strong argument would be offered for the
tralia) (3:45]: I move :
state taking over the whole of the bene-
That the following words be added to the
volent institutions of the various colo-
sub-clause :-“ also invalid and old age pen- nies which have to deal with children, and
siops."
they would become federal institutions.
This is a matter to which I have given a If
you
do that
you
must do what the hon.
good deal of thought. If I could see my member, Mr. Howe, proposes. If you in-
way clear to say that it was purely a state terfere with the children in these institu-
matter,"I would not trouble the Conven-
tions you will have to take over the institu-
tion with it. I mentioned the subject in tions for the infirm and the old. Now, there
Adelaide, and since then I have read a is a decided objection in this colony to any
great deal of literature on the subject, and federal interference with what the people
I have come to the conclusion that if there
conceive to be matters most sacred in the
be one thing more than another which it
family. We have in this colony a law
should be within the power of the com- modelled upon the English law dealing
monwealth to make provision for it is old
with the custody of children and with
age. It is a question which has occupied, parental rights. That question of parental
and is occupying the attention of the fore-
rights' is one which opens up a very large
most statesmen of the world.
range of questions. We may have all sorts
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member had
of interference between parents and their
better make his amendment the subject of children under a proposal of this character.
a distinct sub-clause, it has no relation to The state laws, up to the present, have
the sub-clause before us.
been perfectly effective to deal with this
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I will bow to question, and I think the argument of hon.
the suggestion of the Chairman.
members against applying federal action
The Hon. J.H, CARRUTHERS (New to lunacy apply equally well against federal
South Wales) [3.46]: I hope the Commit- action in this matter. I shall apply those
tee will strike out this sub clause. It is arguments now in my vote.
[The Hon. Sir J. W. Downer.
Commonwealth of
1083
[22 Sept., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South infants. It does not involve what the
Wales) (3:48]: This may not be a matter hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, seems to
of as great importance as are some of the think is in the minds of many who see
other matters in the clause, but I think some objection to this—that it might em-
it is worth consideration. I will put it power the federal authority to interfere
to my bon. friend that if the common-
with domestic relations in some mysterious
wealth are empowered to legislate on the manner so as to reduce children to a posi-
subject of marriage and divorce without tion of slavery. This is a control that
having the power to legislate as to the seems to me to be consequent upon mar-
children, the issue of the marriage, this riage, and which might come into opera-
complication may arise—that the judge, tion, perhaps, in relation to all matters of
having to pronounce a decree of divorce divorce ; but it is not confined to matters
or of judicial separation, and having also of divorce, and might depend simply on
to deal with the question of the custody marriage when the question of divorce does
of infants, if the commonwealth cannot not arise. It will, perhaps, be better to
legislate in regard to both subjects, will leare the sub-clause as it is and consider
administer one law with respect to the issue the matter further later on.
relating to divorce, whilst the consequent The Hon. E. BARTON : Before the hon.
portion of the decree dealing with the and learned gentleman sits down he will,
custody of the children will have to be perhaps, deal with what I forgot, namely,
under a totally different and varying law. a suggestion from the hon, member, Mr.
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Why not add Carruthers, that if this power were granted
the words “ in relation to divorce" } it would involve the probability of the
The Hon. E. BARTON: If the sub- commonwealth having to take over the
clause can be amended in the direction control of the institutions ?
which the hon, and learned member sug- Mr. SYMON: I did not think that the
gests, my objection will have disappeared, hon. member, Mr. Carruthers, seriously
and there will be a reasonable consistency meant that.
in the law. I think the difficulty might The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS: That
be overcome by inserting before the words argument was successfully used against
"parental rights" the word "also," and me in regard to lunatics !
at the end of the sub-clause the words "in Mr. SYMON: I am sure that the hon.
relation thereto."
member will be able to successfully dispose
Mr. SYMON (South Australia) [3.51]: of it when it is next used against him. It
Is it worth while to deal with the matter would be just as reasonable to adopt the
in that way? If you give the federal suggestion of the hon. member, Mr. Howe,
parliament power in relation to marriage and say that the federal authority are to
generally and divorce generally, then any- take control of all institutions for the care
thing that concerns parental rights and the of the aged and infirm. I think that hon.
custody and guardianship of infants is con- members will, on consideration, see that
nected with either one or the other. It there is no parallel between the cases, and,
seems to me that if you intrust the federal that as this affects one part of the rela-
authority with the power of dealing with tionship of the citizens to the common-
marriage and divorce, which involves every wealth, it ought fairly to be under a
thing relating to the highest earthly ties uniform law and under federal control.
-that of marriage—it ought, consequent
The Hon. C. H. GRANT (Tasmania)
on that, also to regulate the custody of [3.53]: I think that the words as they
1
. 1084
„Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
stand, “custody and guardianship of in- The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: That
fants,” are rather too wide. It seems to is only an evidence clause, and will not
me that these words, without any qualifi- have the slightest effect in this matter.
cation, would apply to destitute children. Mr. Symon : The.hon. and learned gen-
It would be better for the state authorities tleman?s-point is a point of jurisdiction !
to control the custody and guardianship The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Yes;
of infants, because they are immediately and it has nothing whatever to do with
on the spot. They have. opportunities of that. The order would be good enough as
inquiring into the relationship of the chil-
a record of the action of the court in the
dren and their parents, and into their con-
first-named state, but it would not be a
dition if they are destitute and neglected. record of the court in the other state ; nor
Therefore, I think it is advisable to omit
would it make the law of the other state
those words, and allow the sub-clause to
subsidiary to the law of the state which
.remain as proposed to be amended by the contained that record.
leader of the Convention.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON : Does
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South the hon. and learned member read the
Australia) [3:54]: I think it would be word "recognition" as meaning proof?
better to leave the sub-clause as it is. I
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It is
..can understand that it will be a very good
no more than recognition; it means.what
thing for each state to. make its own laws it says. The word is plain enough.
with respect to parental rights and the The Hon. J. H. CARRUTIERS : Look at
custody and guardianship. of children.; but sub-clause 25, which says:
supposing that the children went into
The service and execution throughout the
another state, and were thus taken away commonwealth of the civil and criminal process,
from the law of which the previous state
and judgments of the courts of the states.
approved, and came under the law of The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: Butit
another state which had altogether a differ- must be in respect of a matter over which
ent method of dealing with such; matters, the court has jurisdiction.
and under which the parent was not able Mr. SYM.ON : Suppose you change the
to again get the custody of his child, or domicile !
the guardian was not able to again get the The Hon. Sir:J. W. DOWNER: That
custody of an infant, what could he do? will not operate to give jurisdiction. I
He could not proceed under his own law. think that when we have given the most
His own law might:be.good enough, but sacred of all relations--the relation of
-the person that he wanted to proceed marriągemover to the commonwealth, and
against would be out of the jurisdiction of very properly, .it follows, as a matter of
his state.
.course, that we must do this. Parental
Mr. SYMON:: And the order would not rights>that is all we propose to give to
have any force !
the commonwealth. The commonwealth
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: The parliament can make a definition and pass
order would not have any force. The re- a uniform law.
sult would be that, however good. his own
Mr. SYMON: That is incident to the
law
was, he would be unable to erforce it marriage law.!
because the law of the other state was of The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: It
a varying character.
comes from the marriage law, and ought
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : Sub- to flow as a corollary. It is a corollary as
clause 26 provides for that!
far as marriage.is.concerned.
5
[The Hon. C. II. Grant.
Commonwealth of
1085
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
1
The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : It would The Hon. E. BARTON: Put in the
not necessarily follow the law of husband words and in relation thereto" before
and wife !
"parental rights." !
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER:: We The Hon. J. H. GORDON: That will
are only talking about parental rights; cover the whole ground. All our acts
that is, the right of the parent over the relating to the custody and guardianship
child!
of children have relation to parental rights.
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS : If the
Mr. Symon: Suppose a child is deserted ?
hon. and learned member is willing to
The Hon. J. H. GORDON: That sus.
hand over the rights, why not the.obliga-
pends the parental custody ; but the
tions.?
The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER: If the
parental liability remains. I think that
the amendment suggested by the hon. and
hon. member would like them added I have
no objection ; but if the hon. gentleman learned member, Mr. Barton, ccvers the
whole ground.
wants to exclude them, I cannot see that
The Hon. E. BARTON: I nuove :
any difficulty need arise. So far as I know,
the laws of all the .colonies are exactly the
That the figures “24" be omitted with a
view to the insertion of the words -- and in
same in respect to the matters mentioned
relation thereto."
here, and there is very little probability This will confine the operation of the sub-
of their being any different, so far as paren-
clause to the rights and obligations arising
tal rights and the custody and guardian-
out of divorce suits. The other matters
ship of infants are concerned. We want
to which attention has been directed will
to prevent the possibility of any difference,
be considered by the Drafting Committee.
that is all, and to give the federal parlia-
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS (New
ment power to legislate on the subject if
South Wales) [4:3]: I would point out
they please. I can see difficulties that
that if we are going to deal with the ser-
might arise in the enforcement of state
vice and process of writs in regard to this
laws through the child or infant being
taken away from the custody.of its parent
matter in one state when the parent resides
or guardiàn, and being out of the juris- Drafting Committee to consider the aspect
in another, it will be just as well for the
diction of the court of the state in which
of the case in relation to deserted wives.
the parent or.guardian resides, and I think
If the amendment of the hon. and learned
it is necessary to have one uniform law.on
this inatter as well as in regard to marriage
member, Mr. Barton, is carried, I think
we might leave the matter to the Draft-
and divorce.
ing Committee.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South Aus-
Amendment agreed to.
tralia) [3:59.]: I think we are quarrelling
about terms and not about substance. I
Sub-clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
believe that the hon. member, Mr. Carru-
The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member, Mr.
thers, agrees with almost everyone of us
Howe, can now move his proposed new
that as regards parental rights and the sub-clause.
custody and guardianship of children so The Hon. J. H. HOWE (Western Aus-
far as divorce is concerned, power should tralia) [44]: I consider that it is the duty
be given to the commonwealth; but this of the commonwealth, rather than of the
clause goes much further and includes the states, to undertake the work of providing
whole region of parental rights and the for the invalid and aged poor of the com-
custody and guardianship of children. monwealth. The matter was dealt with
1086 Commonwealth of 22 Sept., 1897.] Australia Bill.
come.
in Adelaide, when some of the leading legal
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: If I thought
members of the Convention took the posi- so I would not bother the Convention
tion that the question was more a state about it. The people who would benefit
question than a commonwealth question. most by such a provision are a moving
Since then I have considered it carefully, population. They are engaged in seeking
and the more I have read and thought work all over Australia, and are constantly
over it, the more I am convinced that this going to those placés, which, for the time
work should be undertaken by the common- being, are more prosperous than other
wealth. I consider that no more important places. Our labouring classes will be a
question than this could occupy the atten- nomadic race for a considerable time to
tion of the Convention. The question is one
If the state took this matter in
which is now occupying the attention of all hand, and made payments compulsory, it
the learned and able statesmen of Europe.
could not follow a contributor to the fund
Great philanthropists all over the world from one state to another. The duty is
are trying to find a solution for this dread- one which can only be performed by the
ful calamity. In every civilised community federal authority. At the present time there
we find men who bave given their best are no fewer than 12,000,000 of people in
mental and physical labour to the state Germany subject to this law, and Germany
becoming, in their declining years, through takes the pride of place in having been the
no fault of their own, a burden to their first nation in Europe to adopt this system.
friends, who cannot afford to maintain Charles Booth, than whom no one has given
them, or entering charitable institutions, greater attention to this matter, together
and finally finding a pauper's grare. with Canon Blackley, who is the initiator of
The Hon. E. BARTON : Does not this the whole thing, admits that any scheme
matter stand in the same category as state must to be effective be compulsory. That
banking and state insurance ?
does away with- the contention that the
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : The adop- states could undertake this work better
tion of the hon. member's amendment than the commonwealth. In Australia
might seriously perplex the Finance Com- we have a country far reinoved by a vast
mittee !
expanse of water from every other part of
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: The German the world. Our labourers will be Aus-
Empire has adopted the system of provid- tralian labourers. Labourers from other
ing invalid and old-age pensions. In Ger- lands will not intermingle with them.
many it is compulsory for those in fixed em- We should try to prevent these men
ployment, and for employers, to contribute from becoming destitute in their declining
to a fund which is subsidised by the Go- years through no fault of their own. Every
vernment. Then when a man comes on
member of the Convention knows of cases
the fund he does not come upon it as with where men, who, perhaps, once held high
us a man comes upon the charitable in positions, have, through force of circum-
stitutions of the country. He can hold stances, had to become inmates of charit-
up his head among his fellow-men. This able institutions. The poor have to be kept
law prevents a man who has fulfilled all by the state in any case, and I want the
the obligations of citizen, husband, and commonwealth to say to those of its citi-
father from becoming a pauper in his zens who have attained a certain age, or
declining days.
who have been maimed for life by some
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Is not this purely accident, that they shall not want, and
a.state matter?
need not be a burdan upon friends, who,
[The Hon. J. H. Howe.
Comnzonwealth of
1087
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australico Bill.
perhaps, are not able to keep them, but would not be better not to press it to a
that the commonwealth shall provide the division just now when we will not have
means from this fund to which they have an opportunity of discussing it as fully as
contributed whereby they can live. I we otherwise might and as its importance
hope the Convention will agree to these deserves, but rather reserve it, as another
words being inserted. I am sure that if question has been reserved, for final de-
they do so, the federal parliament will be cision in Melbourne.
able to formulate a scheme whereby my The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I did that at
object can be achieved, and thereby crown the last sitting !
itself with glory. I am sure hon. mem- The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I
bers have read the literature of the sub- simply suggest it to the hon. member for
ject, and no one can do so without coming his consideration. If he goes to a division
to the conclusion that it is a blot, and one I will vote with bim. At the same time,
that should be removed as speedily as I suggest the alternative course with every
possible from all civilised communities. desire to assist him in the accomplishment
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON of what he wishes, and he can rely upon
(South Australia) [4.11]: I know that the me at all times to do so.
hon. member, Mr. Howe, has taken a very The Right Hon. G. H. REID (New
deep interest in this matter for a consider- South Wales) [4.14]: I hope the course
able time, and that he feels most warmly suggested will be adopted by the hon.
and properly with regard to it. I should member, because it will not prejudice
be delighted to do anything in my power the adoption of the proposal. If it had
to assist him. If he goes to a division I been suggested as an amendment by any
shall be found recording my vote with of the parliaments, it might prejudice it.
him, because, although there may be some But he can bring it up as a proposition of
force in the argument that the matter is his own in Melbourne. It is altogether
one more likely to be dealt with satisfac-
too important a question to deal with
torily by the state authority, still, at the
same time I do not understand that the
The Hon. J. H. HOWE: I gave up.my
hon. member proposes to deprive the state right to deal with the question at Ade-
authority of the power of dealing with it laide!
if it so desires. On the contrary, he pro- The Right Hon. G. H. REID: The
poses to insert this amongst the list of hon. member may have given up his right
concurrent powers both of the common- in order to deal with it at the final sitting,
wealth and of the state, so that either but this is not the final sitting. This is a
pay deal with it, and there is no fear what- very large question, and it is embarrassed
ever that one would desire to exercise by a number of considerations. For in-
that power to the prejudice of the other. stance, the different colonies have already
No doubt also the federated authority will a number of subjects of legislation which
be armed with greater power for giving come very close to this. If the common-
effect to anything it may desire, for the wealth and the states are thrown into
reasons which my hon. friend and colleague collision on this matter I do not think it
has pointed out. At the same time I am would help the object in view; between the
inclined to think that it is now a little late two stools it might come to nothing. For
in the history of our Sydney sittings to instance, in a state there might be a very
deal with the question satisfactorily, and
advanced state of things; everything might
I put it to the hon. member whether it be ripe for legislation. What a grand
now.
)
1088
Australia Bill.
Connonwealth of
[22 SEPT., 1897]
excuse it would be for a government tourge, suggest that there should be an under-
“Oh, this matter is in the commonwealth standing that the consideration of the bill
constitution. Let us wait till the common- should be renewed in Melbourne at clause:
wealth takes the matter in hand.” In that 71, on the understanding that any part:
way the benefits of the system might be de- which we do not consider now.shall be taken
ferred indefinitely, whereas in some of the up at once in Melbourne. I am only point-
different colonies it might rapidly ripen. ing this out to show the hon. member, Mr.
As far as I can see, this bill does not con- Howe; that his position will be only the
tain anything which impinges on this sub- same as that of anybody else if he accepts
ject.of old age pensions, whereas the powers the suggestion which has been made. My
of the states do contain a number of things proposal will be this : that we take the
in the same category. It is questionable rest of the bill simply pro forma so as to
whether we should take up a movement get the bill printed with the amendments.
of this sort in connection with a strictly We will recommit the bill pro forma on
limited federation.
Friday and incorporate the amendments as
The Hon. I. A. Isaacs : Could we deal far as we have gone. As to the rest it will
with the subject except in connection with be a complete understanding that we re-
charitable institutions generally?
consider the bill in Melbourne at the point
The Right Hon. Gi H. REID : That where we left off. Then the adoption of
might be so, but I cannot speak positively the report would be followed by a motion
without full consideration. The hon. mem- for recommittal with regard to every por-
ber can see from the appearance of the
tion of the bill which we have not touched,
Convention that this is not a favourable and also with regard to every portion which
time to suggest any new thing, however Queensland wants reopened.
good it my be.
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Or any mem-
The CHAIRMAN : There is a suggestion ber of the Convention!
on the subject from the Council of South The Hon. E. BARTON : Or any mem-
Australia.
ber of the Convention--at any rate with
The Right Hon. G. H. RETD: In that regard to all those points which Queens-
case it may be necessary to deal with it. land wants reopened, and all which we
We might deal with it in some way now
have not touched. The reason I suggest
on the understanding that it will be fully this is that the printer must be got to work
considered in Melbourne.
to-night, and we cannot let the printer
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South have the bill, so far as we have gone, unless
Wales) [4.19]: A much more comprehen- we adjourn before tea.
sive suggestion has been made, which I The Hon. Ii A. ISAACS : Does not the
indorse. It is now 4.20, and the Conven- hon, and learned member intend to sit to-
tion is not going to sit to-
morrow. It will night?:
only meet on Friday to incorporate in the- The Hon. E. BARTON: I think it
bill amendments which have been rendered would be advisable to adjourn before tea';
necessary. I regard it as hopeless to now otherwise the Drafting Committee would
get through all the bill. If we deal only not be able to deal with the bill to-morrow.
with matters of course we shall not be As far as I can see it is essential that this
able to do more than get through this suggestion of mine should be adopted. I
clause, clause 53, and postponed clause make it in the interests of the bill and' of
69. Then we shall have dealt with the bon. members. The hon. member, Mr.
whole of the bill up to clause": 70: I Howe, will see that I am not endeavouring
[The Right Hon. G. H. Reid.
Commonwealth of
1089
[22 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill.
to shelve his amendment, but am only on the 20th January. The result of that
asking that we should stop at the present proceeding would be not only that the
point our practical work, and let us all Drafting Committee cannot meet to put
be treated alike as to what follows in Mel- the amendments in the shape in which the
bourne. If we, pro forma, take the other Convention would like them to be, but
clauses of the bill, it is only to enable the we cannot have the bill printed for the
printer to get to work, also to enable the purpose of circulation in the country, and
Drafting Committee to get to work to- for the purpose of people understanding
morrow, and to enable any drafting amend really what has been done. I therefore
ments to be dealt with on Friday.
throw out the suggestion for hon. members
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: Then this to consider, especially in view of the fact
matter will come on again in its proper that to finish the bill now is hopeless ;
place in Melbourne ?
and apart from that, we all understand for
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes, we shall ourselves that it is intended to finish it in
begin at this very point in Melbourne. Melbourne.
The adoption of the report will be an order The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST :
of the day for our first day's meeting in Suppose we place an asterisk against the
Melbourne, and I undertake to recommit clauses which have not been dealt with ?
the measure then for everything that is The Hon. J. H. GORDON (South
required.
Australia) [4.24]: The leader of the Con-
The Hon. J. H. GORDON : If the clauses vention suggests the circulation of the bill
which we have not dealt with are passed in the various colonies. If it is in circu-
pro formá, can we consider suggestions of lation at all it ought to be circulated, not
the different parliaments? Is it not a only with asterisks to show what clauses
statutory obligation that we should con- have not been considered, but with the
sider them?
actual suggestions of the various legisla-
The CHAIRMAN : We are bound to con- tures opposite each clause.
sider the suggestions of the various par-
The Hon. E. BARTON: That I shall .cer-
liaments !
tainly agree to!
The Hon. E. BARTON: Yes; but that The Hon. J. H. GORDON: Then sub-
statutory obligation is fulfilled if we con- ject to that I shall support the hon. and
sider them in Melbourne. Of course I learned member, because we are
can quite see one objection to which this coming to matters which it will take hours
course is open, and that is that there to settle.
might be some supposition that we have The CHAIRMAN : I was going to suggest
taken all the rest of the bill in globo, that if the leader of the Convention moves
finally. But I think that that can be that I report that the Committee has
met by the very nature of the procedure agreed to certain clauses, and has not con-
we are undertaking, and by the proceed- sidered certain others, then the bill can be
ings of the Convention, which show that printed with the clauses which we have
we are simply not concluding the work, agreed to as amended, and the other clauses
but breaking it off, so as not to waste any can be printed as they originally stood.
further time. If the suggestion I make The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
is not adopted, hon. members will see the Wales) [4.25]: Then there would be no
difficulties which arise. I shall to-day or opportunity for the Drafting Committee
to-morrow have to move that we report to do what the Convention wants them
progress, and ask leave to sit again to do.
now
4 G
1090
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[22. SEPT., 1897.
The CHAIRMAN: I feel I am under a very near to the United States Constitu-
statutory obligation to put all the amend- tion, but I should like to point out how the
ments suggested by the various parlia- same words used in a different relation may
ments, and if I put the clauses I shall lead to very different results. In our bill,
put the amendments.
clause 52 provides that the parliament may
The Hon. E. BARTON: Can it be have full power and authority to make laws
managed in this way: Take the course for the peace, order, and good government
you, sir, have suggested. With regard to of the commonwealth with respect to all
the work of the Drafting Committee I will or any of the matters following. It then
move on Friday that we reconsider certain winds
up
with the sub-clause :
clauses. Then we can report progress and Any matters necessary for, or incidental to,
ask leave to sit again on the 20th January.
the carrying into execution of the foregoing
powers
The CHAIRMAN : Yes.
The Hon. E. BARTON: Then we will
They are specifically mentioned:
or of any other powers vested by this con-
take that course. The question remains
stitution in the parliament or the executive
with hon. members, seeing that we cannot government of the commonwealth or in any
finish the bill, whether it would not be wise,
departinent or officer thereof.
under the circumstances, to adjourn now. It seems to me that if you want to legis-
The Hon. H. DOBSON : Cannot we deal late in regard to the judiciary, you might
with the judiciary clauses?
be met with some difficulty. There is a
The Hon. E. BARTON: I think there power given, but it is very limited ; it is
is only one which will cause any trouble. to do specific things.. My. hon. and learned
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : Might I suggest friend may be able to find that power.
that we should not stop in the middle of
The Hon. E. BARTON : Look at clauses.
a clause. I think it would be as well to 76, 77, and 78!
finish clause 52 !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: I am not
The Hon. E. BARTON: The debate on sure they go far enough. I would also
the rivers question will occupy six or eight point out that in section 8, sub-section 18,
hours.
of the first article of the American Con-
The Right Hon. G. H. REID: And we
stitution, the Congress has power
shall have to fight it over again in Mel-
to make all laws which shall be necessary and
bourne.
proper for carrying into execution the foregoing
powers and all other powers vested by this con-
The Hon. I, A. ISAACS:(Victoria)[4:27]: stitution in the Government of the United States,
Of course we have to bow to the pressure or in any department or officer thereof.
of circumstances. May I say. one word to Now, the word "government” there has a
myhon. friends on the Drafting Committee very large signification. It means the
in relation to clause 52 ? In the United whole of the legislatives judicial, and execu-
States Constitution power is given to the tive departments of the government, and
commonwealth to legislate in very wide any officer and any department thereof. A
terms. The question will be constantly departmental officer in the United States
arising whether the commonwealth parlia- means an officer of the whole government,
ment has power to legislate on any parti- which is a much wider signification than
cular matter. There is no doubt what- the other. A question has arisen in my
ever that they are to be restricted by the mind in two or three places throughout
powers expressed or implied in the consti- this bill whether the parliament has power
tution bill. We have not got exactly. any
to make laws in certain cases--not in two
precedent quite analogous. We have gone. or three cases, but in very numerous cases
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Darling and Murray Rirers. [22. SEPT., 1897.]
1091
Adjournment.
and a question may arise as to whether the to me by the bon. and learned member,
last sub-clause of clause 52 is wide enough Mr. Glynn, of the Darling, and Murray
in that respect. There are many provi- rivers, showing the flood and low-water
sions in relation to the parliament which levels, and the effect on trade of the rise
do not consist of powers vested in the
and fall of the rivers. I move :
parliament.
That the document be printed.
The Hon. E. BARTON: All these in clause Question resolved in the affirmative.
52 are in the parliament !
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS : But there
ADJOURNMENT.
are many provisions of the bill in relation The Hon. E. BARTON New South
to the parliament which are not powers Wales) [4:37]: Before I move the adjourn-
vested in the parliament.
ment of the Convention I would like to
The Hon. E. BARTON : Does the hon. ascertain the wish of hon, members. It
member mean to say that they are mere will be recollected that at Adelaide when
permissions ?
the committees were sitting, the Convention
The Hon. I. A. ISAACS: Permissions met each day pro formd, so that it might be
given, and also provisions made in respect
able to consider any matter of particular
of the parliament, or one single house of the importance which might crop up. Perhaps
parliament. I think it would be well if hon. members may desire that the Conven-
the wording were made so as to prevent
tion should' meet pro forma to-morrow at
any question from arising in the future as half-past 10 o'clock, and adjourn till Friday.
to the power of the commonwealth parlia- Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
ment to legislate in respect of every one
The Hon. E. BARTON: As hon, mem-
of the subjects which are confided to the bers concur, I would ask them to make
commonwealth as a whole.
a. quorum for that purpose at 10.30 to-
Motion (by Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
morrow
I move :
That the Convention do now adjourn.
That the Chairman do leave the chair, and
report that the Committee have considered all
Dr. QUICK : I wish to draw the hon.
the clauses up to and inclusive of clause 70, ex- member's attention to the fact that no
cept sub-sections 25 to 37 of clause 52, and clause
definite answer has yet been sent to
53 and clause 69 ; and that they have not con-
sidered the remaining clauses, the schedule, the
Queensland in response to the letter and
preamble, and the title of the bill, and that the telegram from the Chief Secretary, Sir
Committee have leave to sit again. on Friday. Horace Tozer.
Resolution reported ; leave granted,
The Hon. E. BARTON: I sent first a
The Hon. E. BARTON : I think I shall telegram to say that the telegram had been
be in order in moving that the bill, as recast
received by the members of the Convention
by the Drafting Committee, be printed.
with great gratification, and that we all
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER : Perhaps it
hope to be able to shake hands with ten
will be better to have the bill printed with
representatives of Queensland when the
Convention meets again. I sent a further
the present amendments !
Motion (the Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
telegram to inform Sir Horace Tozer, im-
That the bill be printed with the present
mediately it was done, that the Convention
amendments.
had decided to adjourn on Friday next to:
the 20th January at Parliament House,
DARLING AND MURRAY RIVERS. Melbourne. Perhaps that will be con-
The Hon. E. BARTON : I wish to lay on sidered an intimation to Sir Horace Tozer,
the table a plan which has been handed because a formal intimation had already
1092
Papers.
[23 SEPT., 1897.] Special Adjournment.
upon the table a copy of
been made by the President of the practi-
NOTICES OF MOTION.
cal intention of the Convention, which has Dr. Quick gave notice that tomorrow
since been carried out.
he would move :
The Hon. F. W. HOLDER (South
the report of the late conference of colonial
Australia) [4:40]: I quite agree with the
premiers with the Right Hon. the Secretary of
hon. and learned member, Dr. Quick, that State for the Colonies.
we ought to send a reply from the Conven- The Hon. E. BARTON gave notice that
tion. Of course, the weight that wouldattach
to-morrow he would move the following
motions :-
to the reply of the leader of the Convention
That it be an instruction to the Committee of
would be undoubted; but I think that a
the Whole on the Commonwealth Bill that they
letter or a telegram addressed to this Con-
have power to reconsider all clauses already con-
vention demands some reply by resolution sidered before considering the clauses not yet
adopted by the Convention. I hope that
considered ; and that the standing orders be
suspended to enable the Committee so to do.
even now the hon. and learned member, That this Convention desires to express its
Mr. Barton, will see his way clear to sub- gratification at the announcement contained in
mit a resolution which will be a formal
the Hon. Sir Horace Tozer's communication, and
its fervent hope that representatives of the
reply to the telegram and letter received.
people of Queensland will take part in its
The Hon. E. BARTON : I will take that adjourned deliberations.
into consideration, and possibly move a
PLAN.
resolution on Friday.
Motion (Hon. E. Barton) agreed to :
The PRESIDENT : I need hardly say that That the Clerk be authorised to return to Mr.
the telegram and letter addressed to the Glynn the plan laid upon the table yesterday so
President have, in accordance with the
soon as it has been lithographed and copies
thereof circulated,
wish of the Convention, been duly acknow-
ledged. With regard to the resolution now
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT.
suggested, it will be competent to give
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
notice to-morrow of a resolution for Friday. Wales) [10-33]: I desire to move without
Question resolved in the afirmative.
notice a purely formal motion relating to
the business of the Convention, namely :
Convention adjourned at 4:41 p.m.
That this Convention at its rising to-day do
adjourn until to-morrow afternoon at half-past
2 o'clock,
I think that that will be a convenient
THURSDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
time at which to meet. I do not think
that there will be more than an hour's
Papers-Notices of Motion--Plan- Special Adjournment. work for hon, members to do.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30
Convention adjourned at 10:34 a.m.
a.m.
FRIDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER, 1897.
PAPERS.
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER laid upon the
table a return showing the estimated cost
of properties proposed to be transferred to
the federal government.
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER also laid upon
the table a report from Mr. C. Oliver, Rail-
way Commissioner of New South Wales.
Ordered: That the documents be printed.
Petitions - Acknowledgment of Hospitality (Officers of
Convention)-Instruction to Committee-Communica-
tion from Queensland—Return of Plan -Conference
of Colonial Premiers-Commonwealth of Australia
Bill-Adjournment (President-Chairman of Com-
mittees-Leader of Convention-Clerk).
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 2:30
p.m.
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Petitions.
24 SEPT., 1897.] Recognition of Hospitality. 1093
OFFICERS OF CONVENTION,
PETITIONS.
met again next morning splendid reports of
The Hon. J. H. CARRUTHERS presented the speeches which had been made-reports
a petition from the Grand Lodge of New which, in most cases, required no altera-
South Wales of the Independent Order of tions at all, and which in many cases were,
Good Templars praying that provision may perhaps, improvements upon the speeches
be made in the federal constitution to which had been made. I do not think it
preserve to each state the right to prevent necessary to say more than to again voice
the importation of intoxicating liquors and the opinions of every member of the Con-
opium.
vention in acknowledging our thanks to
The petition was received.
the Government and people of New South
Wales.
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF HOSPITALITY. The Hon. Sir P. O. FYSH Tasmania)
[2:34] : Lest there should be any lack of
The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South response from the other colonies to the
Australia) [2-31]: Before the business of very fitting observations which the hon.
the day is called on, I should like, Mr. and learned member, Sir Richard Baker,
President, on behalf of the visitors to this has offered upon behalf of the visiting
colony, to thank the Government and the representatives, I rise, in the absence of
people of New South Wales for the gracious the Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, to
manner in which they have received us, offer my cordial concurrence in everything
and for the splendid hospitality with which the hon. and learned member has
which they have entertained us. We have said, and, on behalf of Tasmania, to em-
had two great difficulties to contend with phasise, if possible, his remarks. I know
while we have been here.
The one was of no colony in the group which is so desir-
to know which of the numerous invita- ous of extending a hospitable welcome to
tions which have been showered upon us the friends who visit it from time to time
we should accept, and the other to re- than is New South Wales-unless it be
concile with the performance of our duties Tasmania. I am exceedingly sorry that
the attendance at a great many of the I am not likely to see our friends in Tas-
entertainments which we have been able mania at the coming session of the Con-
to accept. I feel sure that there is no vention ; but we shall look forward with
member of the Convention who will not the greatest desire for an opportunity to
leave the colony deeply impressed with occur at some time or other when I trust
the manner in which we have been re- that the great pleasures which we have en-
ceived and treated. I may, perhaps, add joyed under the capital climatic influences
a word or two in reference to the officials of this season of the year in New South
of the Convention, who by their aid and Wales may be repeated wherever we go,
assistance have lightened our duties so far and particularly in the island to which I
as they possibly could ; and it would not belong. I cordially indorse what has been
be proper for me to sit down without said by the hon, and learned member, Sir
giving my meed of thanks and acknow- Richard Baker, and would like, if it were
ledgment to the Hansard Staff for the possible, to add thereto.
splendid manner in which they have per- The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
formed their duties. It has been perfectly [2.35): In the absence of the Premier of
marvellous that, after a long debate ex- Victoria, I have pleasure in heartily in-
tending in some cases nearly up to mid- dorsing the opinions which the more dis-
night, we should have received before we tant colonies have already expressed. We
1094 Recognition of Hospitality. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Recognition of Hospitality.
who are next-door neighbours of this mag- the Premier, I accept with gratitude the
nificent colony are naturally most familiar kind expressions of opinion by the repre-
with the unstinted hospitality which is at sentatives of the various colonies to the
all times extended to visitors to New Government and people of New South
South Wales ; but in this case, familiarity, Wales. I can assure you, sir, that it has
instead of producing its customary and pro- been a source of great pleasure and satis-
verbial results, only increases our desire to faction not only to contribute as largely as
enjoy it still more frequently.
possible to the comfort and happiness of our
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST visitors, but also, if possible, with a view to
(Western Australia) [2-36]: I am very reciprocating the kind treatment which the
glad indeed, on behalf of Western Aus- representatives of New South Wales re-
tralia, to accord our best thanks to the ceived at the hands of the South Australian
Government and people of New South Government. It has not only been a source
Wales for the very generous hospitality of pleasure to us to receive our friends with
which they have extended to us. We had the utmost cordiality, but that feeling is
an opportunity before this, in 1891, of partaken of by the great majority of the
knowing the hospitality that New South people of New South Wales, who, I am
Wales extends to the representatives of sure, have received an important lesson
other colonies on occasions of this kind. from the educational tendency of the de-
My only regret is that we who come from bates and the eloquent speeches to which
the far off colony of Western Australia we have listened from the representatives
have so many opportunities of partaking of the other colonies during the time we
of the hospitality of New South Wales, have been engaged in considering the im-
and other colonies, and but very little op- portant subject which we have been dis-
portunity indeed of returning that hos- cussing within the last two or three weeks.
pitality. I only hope that the time is not I thank the hon. member, Sir Richard
far off when we in Western Australia may Baker, for the kind terms in which he
have an opportunity of showing to the re- expressed himself, and also the represen-
presentatives of these eastern colonies that tatives of the other colonies, and I can
we reciprocate in every way their kind- only assure hon. members that, if it is
ness, and we hope to be able to show them, our pleasure to meet them here again,
as far as our opportunities and means go, they will be welcomed with as much hos-
that we shall be very pleased to do all we pitality as it has afforded us great plea-
can to make their visit to our colony en- sure to be able to extend to them on this
joyable. I do not say these words as occasion.
meaning only an occasion of this kind ; The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT (New
but if any of the delegates who are here South Wales) (2:39]: As the head of the
come to that far-off colony which I repre- Hansard Staff, I return, on their behalf,
sent, and let me know that they are coming, my sincere thanks for the kind manner in
I shall be glad to show them any atten- which Sir Richard Baker spoke of that
tion that I possibly can. I have very body. The Hansard Staff of the Parlia-
much pleasure in giving my accord and ment of New South Wales is one of which
that of my colleagues to the very kind and erery member of that body is proud, and
suitable expressions used by the hon. mem- there is no person in this community
ber, Sir Richard Baker.
more proud of that Hansard Staff and of
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER (New the officers of the Legislative Assembly
South Wales) [2-38]: In the absence of
than I am.
On behalf of the Hansard
[The Hon. A. Deakin.
Instruction to Committee. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Instruction to Committee. 1095
:
Staff
, I may say that from the chief down- or convicted of felony or other infamous
wards every man is actuated by a desire crime are excluded from election and from
to do his best to carry out the duties of sitting. In that respect the Drafting Com-
his office.
mittee had to gather the intention of the
INSTRUCTION TO COMMITTEE.
Convention. There was a general view
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South expressed that the words “ felony or other
infamous crime
Wales) (2:41] rose to move :
were too indefinite to re-
That it be an instruction to the Committee of
main in the bill, and, therefore, the Draft-
the Whole on the Commonwealth Bill that they ing Committee had to gather the sense of
have power to reconsider all clauses already con-
the debate, which was that these matters
sidered before considering the clauses not yet
should be regulated by some term of pun-
considered, and that the standing orders be
suspended to enable the Committee so to do. ishment applicable to the offence, and all
He said :-I will ask leave presently to
that they have done in that respect, has
amend the motion in one particular. Hon.
been to leave out the words “felony or
members will recollect that it was for the
of
any
infamous crime” and to insert the
purpose of carrying out their desires with following words :-
reference to drafting amendments neces- Any offence punishable under the law of the
sary in the bill that the Convention al- commonwealth or of a state by imprisonment for
three years or longer.
lowed the Drafting Committee the whole
of yesterday and part of to-day, in order That is the only substantial amendment
to bring the bill into the form in which,
which the Convention will find has been
as far as we could judge, the Convention implanted in the amendments by the Draft-
desired it to be. I will ask leave to amend ing Committee, and that was done in ac-
the motion by inserting after the words cordance with what they conceived to be
" clauses not yet considered” the words the general sense of the Convention during
" and to accept the suggested amendments
the debate, and according to a suggestion
of the Drafting Committee by one resolu- made by my hon. and learned friend, Mr.
tion.” I do not propose to make that Isaacs, which seemed to me to meet with
course an instruction to the Committee in great acceptance, so that I think it will be
the sense that they are to do it, but simply considered that they have not taken a
to enable the Committee to facilitate their liberty there in any sense. This provision,
own business in such a way as they may if accepted, will remain in the bill simply to
please. Hon. members will find from the be dealt with at our meeting in Melbourne.
print of these amendments, which will be With reference to the clauses about dead-
here in a minute or two, that they are con-
locks, all that there has been any oppor-
fined to dealing with the amendments which tunity of doing has been to shorten them
the Committee themselves have made, , as much as possible consistent with fully
except in the few points of drafting, but expressing the meaning of the amendments
that in addition to matters covered by that carried. I think hon. members will find,
expression, there is one matter and one only after this Convention, that these provisions
in which, though the Convention has not will need some amendment to bring them
made a distinct amendment, an amendment more into consistency with each other. It
has been made by the Drafting Committee, was not the work of the Drafting Commit-
and it is in the clauses dealing with disquali- tee to bring them into consistency with
fication for electing or sitting of members. each other; but simply to express the in-
Hon. members will find that by clauses tentions of the Convention, and that they
45 and 46 persons attainted of treason have faithfully adhered to. I will ask
1096 Instruction to Committee. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Instruction to Committee.
leave to amend the motion in this way, in they have devoted to its very important
order that if the Committee so choose they work. I am sure that nothing but our best
may, after the statement I have made, thanks are due to them. Nevertheless, I
accept the amendments in globo, knowing, must say, in regard to the amendment in
of course, that they will be all open to be clause 45 just referred to by the leader of
dealt with when we meet in Melbourne. I the Convention, that it seems to me that,
ask leave to amend the motion by insert- seeing that we are to meet again, it would
ing after the words “ clauses not yet con- be just as well if we left the clause in the
sidered” the words "and to accept the bill as framed in Adelaide. I do not
suggested amendments of the Drafting exactly understand what the effect of the
Committee by one resolution.” Some hon. words will be. It seems to me that no one
members may wonder why the preamble, wants persons who are suffering a term of
and other parts of the bill which excited imprisonment eligible to be members of the
discussion, have not been amended by the commonwealth parliament. I take it that
Drafting Committee. It was no part of their the person who has received a sentence of
business to go beyond the point which the two years for some infamous offence is still
Committee itself had reached in the bill, eligible, without having purged the whole
so that hon, members will not find any of his offence by serving the whole of his
amendment suggested in any clause beyond time, to be a member of the parliament.
clause 7. The preamble being the last The Hon. E. BARTON : In a case of that
thing to be considered in the bill-until kind he is punishable by the term of three
we came to the title—the Committee could years, or perhaps longer, by the law of all
not touch it; but recognising the strong the colonies. The matter is not regulated
feeling which exists amongst some mem- by the amount of punishment awarded but
bers of the Convention that there should by the amount to which he was liable.
be some recognition of the power and wis- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
dom of the Almighty, and invoking His I hare no hesitation in expressing the
assistance, there will be an amendment - opinion that if he has received a sentence
prepared which may be used in Melbourne, of two years' imprisonment he is as bad,
if necessary.
or alınost as bad, as the man who has re-
Amendment, by leave, amended.
ceived a sentence of three years' imprison-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST ment. I think we ought to guard our par-
(Western Australia) [248]: There is liament against gentlemen of that charac-
nothing to show which clauses have been ter, and it appears to be clear now that a
amended and which have not.
man sentenced to three years' imprison.
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes ; that is ment may serve any time less than three
shown !
years
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : The Hon. E. BARTON : Oh no! Perhaps
I mean it is not shown in the bill itself ; the right hon. gentleman will allow me to
there are no asterisks or anything of that explain. The liability to punishment re-
kind. I should be the last to raise any gulates matters. A man might commit an
difficulty in the way of, or to show any offence for which he was liable to three
want of appreciation, of the work of the years' imprisonment or more.
The court
Drafting Committee, because I recognise might treat him with leniency, and he
most fully that our deepest thanks are due might be sentenced to less than three
to these gentlemen for the great care and years' imprisonment. But, nevertheless,
trouble, and the amount of study and time he would, by the operation of this clause,
!1
[The Hon. E, Barton.
Instruction to Committee. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Message from Queensland. 1097
be excluded from being eligible or from posals, and, if not, whether the financial
sitting, inasmuch as the offence itself en- question simply rests where it was before,
tailed a liability to punishment to that ex- the bill being the same as when it left the
tent; so that, even if he had served less
hands of the Convention at Adelaide, and
than the three years mentioned in the bill,
the whole matter is to be considered when
he would still be excluded so long as his
the Convention meets in Melbourne ?
offence was in such a category that he
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
could be punished to that extent.
Wales) [2:53]: The position is this: The
Committee have not gone beyond clause 70.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
The finance clauses proper are from 90 to
I take it that when a prisoner is released
93, and therefore the Committee have of
the disability is removed, and he would be
course not touched them, nor, consequently,
eligible.
could the Drafting Committee in any way
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes, that is
touch them, and the whole of the financial
right!
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: provisions remain to be considered in Mel-
bourne. All the Drafting Committee have
I cannot see any force in that--that if
been able to do has been to circulate some
a man receives a sentence of three years'
clauses, carrying out what they gathered
imprisonment, and serves two years, he is
to be the wish of a considerable number
still eligible.
of hon, members during the debate. But
The Hon. E. BARTON : The law sup-
it is a mere matter of drafting, and does
poses that he would have atoned for his
not bind hon, members down to anything.
offence when he had served two years !
Those clauses are mere suggestions, and in
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
the meantime the clauses agreed to at
I should not like to see gentlemen of that Adelaide remain in the bill, subject to
character sitting in Parliament.
being dealt with at Melbourne. In reply
The PRESIDENT : It would probably be to the question asked by the hon. member
more convenient to discuss this matter in
as to the meeting of the Finance Commit-
Committee. The question now is, that tee, I may state that the Finance Com-
when the Committee have the amendments mittee did meet, and they resolved that for
before them, they shall have power to dis- the present the proper course was that the
pose, of them all by one motion, if it is
two representatives of each colony on that
deemed fit to do so.
committee should communicate with each
Mr. LYNE (New South Wales) [2:52]: other, and prepare memoranda which should
I have not had time to look through these be exchanged before the meeting of the
amendments, and I think it would be Convention in Melbourne, and that, if
useless to attempt to analyse them at the possible, the Finance Committee should
present time. We have the assurance of meet before the Convention meets in Mel-
the leader of the Convention, on behalf bourne and deliberate on the suggestions
of the Drafting Committee, that there is that they may make to the Convention.
nothing new excepting what the hon, and
Question resolved in the affirmative.
learned gentleman referred to; but what I
rose particularly for was to ask the leader COMMUNICATION FROM QUEENSLAND.
of the Convention whether any report has The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
been received from the Finance Committee, Wales) [2:55] rose to more :
and whether any suggestions have been That this Convention desires to express its
made with reference to the financial pro- gratification at the announcement contained in
1098
from Queensland.
Communication
[ 24 SEPT., 1897.]
the Hon. Sir Horace Tozer's communication, and sions, made very vague attempts to be repre-
its fervent hope that representatives of the sentedin this Convention, attempts by which
people of Queensland will take part in its
they failed to give the people of Queens-
adjourned deliberations.
land an opportunity of sending representa-
He said : This is a motion that requires
tives to the Convention. I hope—speaking
very little speech to commend it. Every-
as a representative of New South Wales-
one knows the ardent desire which the
that we shall have, at our next meeting,
representatives of all the colonies now
representatives from Queensland, chosen by
engaged in this work have that Queensland
the people of Queensland. I hope that the
should take part in our deliberations, and
opportunity, which has neveryet been given
the feeling we all entertain that while we
to the people of Queensland as a people,
may make an effective and powerful feder-
to send representatives to the Conven-
ation without Queensland, there can be
tion will be afforded them. The Govern-
none that is complete without her. Our
ment took such methods as made it quite
opinion on this matter has been often
clear from the beginning that there could
enough expressed in debate. Those debates
be no representation of that colony. As
have reached our friends in Queensland,
I said before, we were told in Adelaide
and I think they are well assured not only
that if by any possibility there could be
of the feeling of the members of the Con-
an adjourned meeting of the Convention
vention, but of the public feeling through-
we should have Queensland represented
out the colonies. I have not only an ardent
at that adjourned meeting. We all know
hope but a profound conviction that that
too well, and we all, I am sure, regret
cordial feeling which the other colonies
deeply, as federationists, the manner in
entertain for the colony of Queensland,
which the Government have proposed to
and the prospect of the benefits which will
deal with this question in Queensland;
arise to that colony from joining in the
and I am only speaking now in the hope
federation—which without the slightest
that some warning may go to the Queens-
doubt I believe will before long be accom-
land Government to prevent them from
plished—will induce Queensland to take
attempting again what they have already
part in our deliberations at Melbourne.
twice attempted, and twice failed in doing,
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT that is, to send representatives to this
(New South Wales) (2:58]: I am one of Convention not chosen by the people of
those who believe that, sooner or later, Queensland.
Queensland will be one of the largest of The Hon. J. H. GORDON: There are re-
the Australian states, and I am one who presentatives here who were not chosen by
will rejoice immensely if the Queensland the people!
legislature can see its way to send repre- The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: The
sentatives to this Convention. But I am people of Queensland have never had an.
not one of those who have the slightest opportunity of sending representatives to
sympathy with the Queensland Govern- the Convention.
ment in the manner in which they have The Hon. J. H. GORDON : Neither have
dealt with this question. We were told those of Western Australia. That is not
in Adelaide that if, by any means, there
our business!
was a possibility of postponing the ulti- The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: It is
mate determination of the Convention, we our business. I object to these laudatory
should have Queensland with us. The Go-
The Go- congratulations which we ourselves must
vernment of Queensland have, on two occa- feel are insincere. – I do not think the
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Communication
1099
[24 SEPT., 1897.]
from Queensland.
Queensland Government are to be thanked The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT:
at all for their proposal to send represen- Well, I feel no gratification about it, be-
tatives to the adjourned meeting of the cause I doubt its sincerity. We were told
Convention. But if they can learn a lesson the same thing in Adelaide. The telegram
from the past then it will be a very good which was sent from Queensland then was
thing that the adjournment of the Conven- received by the members of the Convention
tion to Melbourne has been agreed to, and with cheers. I at the time expressed the
that we shall have a third opportunity of opinion that Queensland would not be re-
considering the question. I am speaking presented at this session, and I express the
now only with the earnest hope that a opinion now that if the matter rests with
great colony like Queensland will be repre- the Government of Queensland, that colony
sented in the Convention, and I join with will not be represented at the next ad-
my hon, and learned friend, Mr. Barton, journment of the Convention.
in saying that there can be no Australian Mr. MCMILLAN : We are not asked to
federation with Queensland standing out.
express our gratification at the action of
At the same time I am not going to praise the Queensland Government, but with the
the Queensland Government for a telegram announcement contained in the letter.
announcing that they are going to come to The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT :
the next meeting of the Convention. Well, I am not gratified with the announce.
Mr. GLYNN: It does not praise them ;
ment.
it expresses our gratification !
Dr. QUICK : The hon, member is singu-
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: It lar!
says that the Convention “ desires to ex- The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: I
press its gratification.” What does that
may be singular, but I am truthful and
mean? Thereisno gratification to me. There sincere.
can be no gratification when we know The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER : We are
what has been done in the past. Let sincere, whether the Queensland Govern-
the Queensland Government do what the ment are so or not!
governments of the other colonies have The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: I
done, and I have no doubt there will be want to see Queensland represented, and
representation at our next meeting. I
no one will rejoice more than I shall if
have no desire to do anything which will
Queensland is represented here. I look
prevent the representation of Queensland upon Queensland as the colony possessing
at the next meeting of the Convention. the greatest resources in Australia, and
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST : sooner or later it must be a powerful com-
The hon. member now is doing his best to ponent of federated Australia. I earnestly
prevent it!
hope that Queensland will be with us at
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: No.
our next meeting; but, at the same time, I
I am doing my best to bring them here must express my doubts as to the sincerity
by a note of warning to the Queensland of the Government of that colony.
Government that there is no use in further The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
trifling with the question. They have twice (Tasmania) (3.2]: I do not think that hon.
sent messages to the Convention
members of the Convention can entertain
Mr. MCMILLAN : The motion before the any doubt as to the advisability of express-
Convention only expresses gratification at ing our deep gratification at the hope now
the announcement contained in the letter presented to us that Queensland will be
of Sir Horace Tozer !
represented at the next meeting of the
1100
from Queensland.
Cominunication
[24 SEPT., 1897.1
Convention. I do not think that any un- without qualification. I think that we are
certainty or hesitancy upon the part of the all delighted to find that by a resolution of
Queensland Government–if there has been her Legislative Assembly, Queensland has
such uncertainty or hesitancy-should in- determined to be represented, not by a
fluence us at this moment. We a
We are deal- nominated delegation, not by a delegation
ing now, not so much with the Govern- chosen by the legislature of Queensland;
ment as with the people of Queensland, but by representatives elected by the whole
from whom, or from whose representatives, people. I feel confident that in the repre-
as I understand it, this new movement in sentatives elected by the people of Queens-
regard to the representation of the colony land at large we shall have a strong repre-
here has arisen. For my own part, what- sentation, which will be able to place before
ever may be my opinion as to the past action this Convention at its adjourned meeting
of the Queensland Government, I shall at Melbourne views and considerations
cordially join in the course which is now which will be of great weight, and which
proposed to us.
will be of great assistance in helping this
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [3.3]: I have Convention to place the finishing touches
great pleasure in supporting the motion, upon this federal constitution. We have
and in joining in the sentiment of gratifi- every reason to be pleased. I concur in the
cation at the announcement contained in view so often expressed by the Right Hon.
the communication of Sir Horace Tozer, Sir John Forrest, that no federation will
which is expressed in the motion before be perfect unless the whole of Australia is
us. I should be very sorry indeed to utter represented in the federation, and unless
a single jarring note upon the present
the whole of Australia is able to confirm
occasion, and I am quite sure that the the constitution. If the whole of Australia
hon, member, Sir Joseph Abbott, had no is represented at this final sitting, we shall
intention whatever to do so in the state-. have all the stronger hope of arriving at an
ment which he has just made. People at ultimate decision, which we will be able to
a distance can hardly form a correct or an recommend to our respective colonies.
adequate idea of the local difficulties with The Hon. Sir J. W. DOWNER (South
which the Government of Queensland may Australia)[3-6]: Theimportance of Queens-
have had to contend in dealing with this land to the federation could not be painted
question. When I visited Brisbane less in stronger terms than those used by the
than a couple of years ago, I waited on the Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott. Therefore, we
Right Hon. Sir Hugh Nelson in connec- cannot do less than express our gratification
tion with this movement, and from the that the colony which is great, and which in
statement he made to me then I was led the opinion of the Hon. Sir Joseph Abbott
to believe that he was thoroughly sound will be the greatest, has through its people's
upon the federal question, and desired to house pledged its national faith to be repre-
do all he possibly could to forward it. sented at the adjourned meeting of the
There may be, and there have been, local Convention. It is from that point of view,
difficulties in the way of the Government, recognising at once the importance of the
both from their own supporters as well as subject, that I readily support this motion.
from the Opposition, which have led to Mr. WALKER (New South Wales)
delay in the representation of Queensland [3.7]: As an old Queenslander, it affords
at the Convention ; but I think that, not- me the greatest pleasure to hear that we
withstanding this delay, we ought to hold may expect Queensland to be with us at
out the hand of welcome without stint and the adjourned meeting. Only this morn-
!
[The Right Hon. Sir E. Braddon.
Communication
1101
[24 SEPT., 1897.]
from Queensland.
ing I had the pleasure of reading in the late period in the session to appeal to the
Brisbane. Courier, of Wednesday last, that people in time to be with us. I am quite
an important meeting had been held in sure that Sir Horace Tozer and others would
Bundaberg of the leading sugar manufac- have been quite satisfied to do that if they
turers and representatives of the central had not, as they thought, the assurance of
mills and canegrowers' associations, and Parliament in the previous session that it
that a resolution was carried which reads would elect representatives. Iam sure there
in the first part as follows:
is no desire, and never has been, on the part
That the Government be asked to help the
of the Government of Queensland to treat
sugar industry in the present crisis, and this us otherwise than courteously. I am glad
meeting is of opinion that the only help possible
to see the growing spirit of brotherhood
would be in federation.
among all the colonies on this question of
That message has evidently gone through federation, and I shall be both pained and
the northern and central districts of
Queensland, because there is to be a depu- surprised if Queensland is not represented
Queensland, because there is to be a depu- by ten as able men as a delegation as we
tation to Sir Hugh Nelson on his return
have had the pleasure of meeting here.
to bring these views before him. At Bun-
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER (New
daberg a telegram was read from Mr.
South Wales) [3.10]: Without entering
Long, of Habana Plantation, one of the
into any details, I, as an Australian, am
oldest sugar planters in the Mackay dis-
trict, promising co-operation.
exceedingly gratified to assent to the pro-
In Cen.
tral and Northern Queensland the feeling position which has been submitted by our
is evidently growing in favour of federa worthy leader.
worthy leader. I hail it as another link
in that connection which I am sure we all
tion. Without going beyond the ordinary
lines, I hope I may be allowed to say that so much desire, that is, that Queensland
the Government of Queensland have had
shall be associated with us in any con:
very good reasons, which are not known stitution which is framed for the federa-
to hon. gentlemen, for the apparent delay
tion of these great colonies. Queensland
which has occurred since the meeting has been for so long associated with New
that we held in Adelaide. The under- South Wales that we all recognise her
standing then was, on behalf of Sir Hugh greatness, and her magnificent resources,
Nelson and Sir Horace Tozer, that the and wish her every prosperity. I also concur
Parliament would be content to have re- with the opinion which has been expressed,
presentatives chosen as follows by itself : that without Queensland this federation
Namely, two from the Upper House, three would be incomplete. I therefore hope
from the Opposition, and five from the that at our next meeting she may be fully
Ministerial side of the Lower House. Min- represented. I am sure that we shall all
isters had every reason to suppose that
extend the hand of welcome to her repre-
that proposition would be accepted by the sentatives who come to take part in the
Assembly, and they therefore did not call formation of that great federation which
Parliament together so early as they other- we hope to see established in Australasia.
wise would have done. When the Assembly The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
met it turned out that there was a co- (Western Australia) [3.11]: I simply rise
alition against the proposal to send repre- to express my entire concurrence with the
sentatives elected by Parliament, and then proposal made by my hon. and learned
Sir Horace Tozer regretted that the Go- friend, Mr. Barton. I am sure that it will
vernment had not called Parliament to- be a great gain to all of us to have Queens-
gether earlier. It was impossible at that land represented in this Convention, and
1102
from Queensland.
Communication
[24 SEPT., 18.97.
every one, I think, will allow that a federa- not know, not being in Queensland, the
tion which excludes Queensland from it difficulties which the Government have had
will not be the federation that we are all to encounter there. It is all
It is all very well for
looking forward to. We have had oppor- hon. members who are now safe in their
tunities. to judge of the public men of seats in this Convention to make little of
Queensland here in 1891 and on other the difficulties which have surrounded the
occasions, and, speaking for myself, I never Queensland Government in dealing with
had an opportunity to work with men who
this question. I have no doubt that
took a greater interest in all that apper- they have had great difficulties to contend
tains to the welfare of the Australian con- with.
tinent, and I shall be very glad indeed if, The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: They
in the concluding sitting of the Conven- had no greater difficulties than other
tion, we shall have the privilege of being governments !
associated with the public men of Queens- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
land. I cordially concur with this motion, Perhaps if the course had to be followed
which, I think, is very opportune, and alto- in some of these colonies at the present
gether desirable. I regretted, however, to time, the difficulties would not be so small
hear the speech of the hon. member, Sir as they were when we dealt with them.
Joseph Abbott
At any rate, I am not one who will make
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : The
any observations which will in any way
hon. member should rejoice !
reflect on the Government of Queensland,
because I think it is a matter which is en-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: tirely within their own jurisdiction, and I
I really think the hon, member could not
feel quite certain that all they have done
have thought of what he was saying when
they can fully justify. I have very much
he made those observations, when he took
pleasure in according my support to the
upon himself to warn the people of Queens-
motion,
land. I have no doubt that the people of
The Hon. H. DOBSON Tasmania)
Queensland are quite capable of looking. [3-14]: I think we shall all be very glad to
after their own business without any
learn whether our hon. leader has any
warning from the hon, gentleman or from
intimation from Queensland as to whether
any one else.
To apply the expression
the dates which have been fixed will suit
“ warning" to a great country is, I think,
the Queensland delegates? We have al-
altogether improper. I am sure that my ready had two sittings of this Convention,
hon. friend will not like the expressions
and on each occasion I regret to say we
he used in regard to that colony when he
fixed a date which did not allow us time
sees them in print.
to finish our very important work, and as:
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT : Yes, he we have left, most unwisely I think, a very
will !
great deal of work to be settled in Mel-
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST: bourne, it is most important that we should
If the hon. member does: approve of the fix a date which is equally convenient to
words he used, all that I can say is that I everybody, particularly to our Queensland
think he stands alone in this Convention. friends, whom we all wish to welcome at
I do not think that this is the time for us the next sitting of the Convention.
to warn one another or to threaten. This The. Hon. E. BARTON (New South
is a time when we should show good feeling Wales) (3:15], in reply: I should like to
and mutual respect in every way. We do remind my hon. friend, Sir Joseph Abbott,
[The Right Hon. Sir John Forrest.
Cominunication ( 24. SEPT., 1897.] from Queensland. 1103
that the resolution passed by the Legisla-
remainder of the colonies, and one which,
tive Assembly of Queensland was : I believe, we will find has given their
That in the opinion of this House the Acting representatives, when they elect them, the
Chief Secretary should request the Australasian
greatest force possible in deliberations of
Federal Convention now sitting in Sydney not
this kind.
to conclude its work until Queensland has an
Therefore, I think that we
opportunity of being represented at that. Con- ought to be gratified at such an announce-
vention by representatives directly appointed by ment, both as an expression of the inten-
the electors of the colony.
tion and as an expression as to the way in
The Hon. Sir JOSEPH ABBOTT: That
which that intention is to be carried out.
may postpone action indefinitely!
I think there is, on all these points, a dis-
The Hon. E. BARTON : Queensland
tinct departure from anything hitherto
may postpone action indefinitely; but I
done by Queensland, and that is the real
take it that the Convention will regard
reason for our gratification.
this resolution as the strongest bond fide
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER: That resolu-
expression of intention on the part of the tion was affirmed by a large vote of the
representative House in Brisbane to be
Assembly !
represented at the adjourned sittings of the
The Hon. E. BARTON: As the hon.
Convention. I take it that that body would
member reminds me, the resolution was
not have requested the Convention not to
affirmed by, I think, a vote of 38 to 12.
adjourn its work—that is to say, not to
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: Counting the
conclude its work-until they had an op-
pairs ?
portunity of being represented, unless there
The Hon. E. BARTON : Yes, I sup-
had been a direct intention on their part
pose, counting the pairs. I have been
to be represented, as they have put it,
asked a question by the hon. member, Mr.
by representatives directly appointed by the
electors of the colony.
Dobson, as to whether any communication
has been received by Queensland approv-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Hear; hear ; that
is the point!
ing of the date fixed for the adjourned
The Hon. E. BARTON: That is to say,
meeting of the Convention, or suggesting
that the date should be altered. As soon
appointed in the same way as representa-
tives of four of the colonies have been
as the resolution or at least within an
appointed, and as no doubt, had circum-
hour or two afterwards—was arrived at
stances been different the representatives
to the effect that the adjourned sittings
of the fifth of the colonies would have been
should begin in Melbourne on the 20th
appointed. There is the strength, as it. January, I telegraphed the fact to Sir
appears to me, of this intination : first,
Horace Tozer, and as I have had no reply
that the request would not be made unless
from him expressing any dissatisfaction,
the intention to be represented was strong,
nor as I understand has any one else, I
and, next, that that intention is fully ex-
take it that Queensland is not dissatisfied
plained in the concluding words of the
with the fixing of that date. I hope that
motion referring to representation by direct
the resolution will be carried unanimously.
appointment by the electors of the colony. Question resolved in the affirmative..
That direct appointment by the electors
The PRESIDENT: I desire to lay on the
of the colony is the method which has not table. the reply. which has been sent to
had its part in either of the bills hitherto Queensland pursuant to the direction of
introduced by the Government of Queens-
the Convention.
land. Itis a new departureon their part, and Motion (the Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
one which brings them into line with the That the document be printed.
1104
Commonwealth Bill.
Return of Plan.
[24. SEPT., 1897.]
RETURN OF PLAN.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
Resolved (on motion Hon. E. BARTON):
Amendment 32, page 5. The form in which
That the Clerk of the Convention be autho-
it was passed, I think on the motion of the
rised to return to Mr. Glynn the original plan, hon. and learned member, Mr. Symon, pro-
laid on the table on Wednesday, September
22nd, showing the levels of the Murray and
vided that if the senate should fail to pass
Darling Rivers, &c.
a proposed law, and if the governor-general
should dissolve the house of representa-
CONFERENCE OF COLONIAL PREMIERS.
tives, and if within six months after the
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [3.19] rose to
dissolution, the house of representatives,
move:
by a certain majority, should pass that law
That there laid before this Convention a copy
of the report of the late conference of Colonial
again, then certain consequences should
Premiers with the right hon. the Secretary of ensue. The hon. and learned member, Mr.
State for the Colonies,
Symon, expressly struck out the words in
He said : This report contains very valu- the amendment, as originally proposed,
able expressions of opinion by the right "on that account," referring to the disso-
hon. the Secretary of State, and they will lution, and there was nothing which neces-
probably be of great interest and use at sarily connected the dissolution with the
the adjourned sitting of the Convention.
original trouble. All that was provided,
Question resolved in the affirmative.
so I took it, was that after the trouble there
should be a dissolution which would enable
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA BILL.
the sense of the country to be taken.
In Committee (consideration resumed from
22nd September, vide page 1091):
The Hon. A. DEAKIN : That is so in the
bill now !
Motion (Hon. E. BARTON) agreed to:
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON :
That the consideration of the remainder of
clause 52 be further postponed.
There is one word there which was not in
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
the amendment originally carried by us.
Wales) [3:21]: The Coinmittee have power
The Hon. E. BARTON: “Thereupon " !
to reconsider all clauses already considered The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON:
before considering the clauses not yet con- Yes; if the governor-generalshould "there-
sidered l; but I propose to take a course upon” dissolve the house--that is, on the
which may perhaps satisfy hon. members dispute. Certainly it was not so expressed
at this stage. I think that I shall have
in the amendment as originally carried.
the sense of the Committee with me in
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is not in
moving:
the bill !
That the Committee do now agree to the sug-
gested amendments of the Drafting Committee.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: It
is not in the bill.
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: That is the recom-
(South Australia) [3.22]: I wish to call
the attention of the Drafting Committee
mendation of the Drafting Committee, I
to one inatter which has struck me. I
understand!
notice that an expression which was used
The Hon. E. BARTON : Our interpreta-
in the clause relating to deadlocks has tion of the meaning of the Convention !
been altered in one particular which may The Right Hon. C.C. KINGSTON : In
or may not be of importance. It is as the bill as reported on September 22nd,
regards the first part of the provision. as amended in Committee, the word “there-
An HON. MEMBER : What is the num- upon”
» does not occur. I am not express-.
ber of the amendment?
ing my opinion finally on the matter.
Commonwealth of
1105
[24 SEPT., 1897.]
Australia Bill,
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST: It's Dr. QUICK: On the amendment being
all right!
made providing for a dissolution of the
The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON: I senate, there was a hiatus in the bill, and
do not always see eye to eye in these mat-
the Drafting Committee has suggested that
ters with the right hon member, Sir John provision should be made in the direction
Forrest, and something which would recom- of choice by lot, to determine the order of
mend itself to him might not recommend subsequent retirement of senators.
itself to me.
I simply call the attention The Hon. E. BARTON: Those words
of the Drafting Committee to the word remain in the clause all the time !
“thereupon," and I suggest that it to some Dr, QUICK: Those words have refer-
extent might be construed, or it might be ence to the first determination by lot; but
argued that it should be construed, to re- the amendment made by the Convention
store the clause to the shape in which it made no provision
was originally proposed with the words "on The Hon. E. BARTON: It was for a con-
that account” in it, and which was not tinuous dealing with the matter !
acceptable to the House. I commend the Dr. QUICK : I would suggest that the
matter to the further consideration of the Drafting Committee should take this into
Drafting Committee, and at the right time, consideration-whether upon a dissolution
which I do not consider to be the present, of the senate in the case of a deadlock, in-
I shall have a further opportunity of stead of the seats being distributed by lot
referring to it.
--that is, by chance or by accident--the
Dr. QUICK (Victoria) [3:26]: I notice principle should be adopted of redistri-
that in amendment 5, Chapter I, clause 13, buting the seats, or the term of the seats,
in the clause as printed, the Drafting Com- according to the position in which the re-
mittee suggest the following words for turned senators stand upon the poll. In •
adoption >
that case the senators who had gained ap-
After the senate first meets and after each first
parently the highest esteem of the electors
meeting of the senate following a dissolution would have the longest term of office, and
thereof the senate shall by lot divide the senato that would be an advantage to which they
chosen for each state as soon as may be into two
would be reasonably entitled, rather than
classes as nearly equal in number as practicable.
that it should be left to a matter of chance
The dissolution of wbat was originally
a continuous body necessitates provision The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: That principle
for what is to take place after the disso- should apply equally to the first election!
lution. I was somewhat interested to learn
The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
the view the Drafting Committee would
Wales) [3.28]: This was a matter with
take as to the redistribution of seats, or which the Drafting Committee could not
the redistribution of terms. It struck me deal. We found that the principle of the
that the best way to redistribute the division of the senate into classes was de-
terms upon re-election would not be by lot, termination by lot. We had to leave that
as upon the first election to the federal
in the bill as it stood, because it was not
parliament, but that the new senators
for us to make any substantial amendment.
should be divided into two classes, accord- Therefore, we retain the principle, merely
ing to their position on the poll.
providing for the case of a dissolution of
The Hon. E. BARTON: That would be a mat- the senate. It will be for the Convention,
ter for the Convention, and one with which if they agree with my hon. and learned
the Drafting Committee could not deal! friend, to amend this provision in Mel-
or lot.
4 H
1106
Australia Bill.
Commonwealth of
[24 SEPT., 1897.1
bourne. As my hon, and learned friend, The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
Mr. O'Connor, has pointed out, if the divi [3:31]: The word "thereupon" meets with
sion is to be according to the position on the objection that it is capable of more
the polls after a dissolution, then the two than one interpretation. If in Melbourne
classes should be so divided in the first in- we come to decide, as the hon. and learned
stance also. It was a more important ques- member, Mr. Barton, has suggested, that
tion than the Drafting Committee could this dissolution should follow within a
decide, and one for the Convention alone, reasonable time, we had better say so, or
whether that alteration should be made. clearly express whatever else we mean.
As to the suggestion thrown out by the The word "thereupon" creates ambiguity,
right hon member, Mr. Kingston, the use and we had better avoid it. With regard
of the word “thereupon" arises from to the question of choosing the senators
this consideration : In the amendment as by lot, the hon. and learned member, Mr.
originally framed in the Convention the O'Connor, is aware that I entertained a
words, as he correctly says "on that ac- strong opinion in Adelaide against the
count” occurred. These words were struck adoption of any such method, unless no
out. The Drafting Committee presumed equally good means could be devised. I
that they were struck out because it have always thought that one of the means
was not right to suggest in a bill of this which might be chosen is to fix the terms
kind that the governor-yeneral dissolved of members in the order in which they are
the house or the houses for any particular placed at the poll. That, however, is a
reason, inasmuch as the power of disso- matter which will be properly open to
lution is a prerogative power which the
discussion when we meet again.
governor has a right to exercise without The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON
assigning any reason. Therefore, we would (South Australia) [3:32]: The explanation
not for a moment attempt to reintroduce given by the lion. and learned member,
the words " on that account." The object Mr. Barton, rather confirms me in the ob-
of the insertion of the word "thereupon jection which I take to the use of this ex-
meant only this: not to reinsert the pro- pression. I should like to remind hon.
vision otherwise described as on that ac- members that when the amendment was
count,” but simply to provide that the recommended to our notice it was said
governor should within a reasonable time to be based upon the provision made
exercise the power of dissolution, if he in- by South Australia, and it was made to
tended to exercise it, so that that power more closely resemble it by striking out
might not be kept—and we conceived it was the words on that account." The South
not the intention of the Convention that Australian provision was that if there
it should be kept—hanging in suspense were a dispute between the two houses,
over the head of any legislative chamber, and after a general election had taken
that if it were intended to be exercised, it place, that dispute was repeated in the next
should be exercised within a reasonable parliament, certain consequences should
time. That is our interpretation of what ensue. The words used in South Australia
we thought the reasonable meaning of the are 66 after
a general election.”. Here a dif-
Convention. Of course, if that is not ferent expression is being used. We speak
the right interpretation, the mistake can of "a dissolution," and that word is being
easily be rectified by omitting the word emphasised by the use of the word “there-
" thereupon " when we meet again in apon," which the more I think of it, the
Melbourne.
more I feel disposed to consider a grave
The Hon. E. Barton.
Commonwealth Bill.
1107
[24 SEPT., 1897.]
Adjournment.
mistake. It altogether alters the position, The Hon. E. BARTON: So long as we
which should be that if the house of as- know that we start from clause 70 we do
sembly, having submitted to a general elec- not want an asterisk.
tion—I do not care whether it is after a The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria)
dissolution, or after the expiry of parlia- [3.35]: If I may offer a suggestion, it
ment by effluxion of time-comes back and would be that in addition to distributing
renews a dispute with the senate, the these copies of the bill in a few days,
power of sending the senate to its consti-
the leader of the Convention might have
tuents to ascertain whether the newly- another copy prepared which would show
elected house of assembly faithfully repre- the amendments made at this sitting of
sents the popular view, shall be exercis- the Convention in different type-erased
able. I think it is a pity that we should
type for portions struck out and larger type
have departed from the South Australian
for words inserted. It would be an im-
provision. It would have been better to
mense convenience.
speak of general elections"; but those
The Hon. E. BARTON: The bill as it is
words were not used in the amendinent
will be distributed as quickly as possible.
which was moved. I trust that when we
finally deal with this clause we shall more
I will take steps to have the other portions
closely approach the provision in South gone through, which will meet the Right
Australia, and shall omit the word "there- Hon. Sir John Forrest's suggestion, and a
upon,” which appears to authorise an in- second distribution of the bill printed in
terpretation with which some may sym-
the same way as the Parliamentary Drafts-
pathise, but to which I strongly object. man in Victoria arranged it.
Question resolved in the affirmative. The Hon. A. DEAKIN : Exactly, and in
Motion (by Hon. E. BARTON) proposed :
that bill the wish of the Right Hon. Sir
That the Chairman do now leave the chair,
John Forrest could be met by placing an
report progress, and ask leave to sit again on the asterisk against the clauses, or by adopt-
20th January
ing some other method, to show which
Dr. QUICK :
clauses have been considered here and which
The Hon. E. BARTON: As soon as the bave not.
President takes the chair, I shall move that The Hon. E. BARTON: There will be a
the bill be printed, embodying the amend- note to explain what has been done ; it is
ments up to date.
to date. It will be in the hands
a mere matter of detail !
of the Government Printer to-night, and
Question resolved in the affirmative.
hon. members will receive copies of it as
Progress reported and leave obtained to
quickly as they can be distributed.
sit again on the 20th January next.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST :
Will a note be placed against the clauses
ADJOURNMENT.
which have yet to be considered ?
The Hon. E. BARTON: I will make
a note that the amendments so far made The Hon. E. BARTON (New South
in the bill are only up to clause 70, or that Wales) [3:38] rose to move :
clauses 71 to 121 have not yet been con- That this Convention do now adjourn.
sidered.
He said: I should like to express my
ack-
The Right Hon. Sir John FORREST : An nowledgments, in the first place, gene-
asterisk might be placed against those rally, for the courtesy and forbearance with
clauses !
which hon. members have treated me
PRESIDENT-CILAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES-
LEADER OF CONVENTION-CLERK.
1108 Adjournment. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Adjournment.
throughout the deliberations of this con- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST
vention. Of course, while on the one hand, (Western Australia) (3:41] : The senti-
every one will acknowledge it is no easy ments expressed by the hon. and learned
task to keep every thing going with the member, Mr. Deakin, were those which I
accuracy and order that is necessary for myself had intended to express. We owe
properly piloting a bill of this kind ; on the a great deal more to our hon. and learned
other hand, it must be obvious to us all friend, Mr. Barton, than he has been so
and especially to me, that anything in the good as to say he owes to us. I feel under
way of impatience on one side or the other a deep debt of obligation to him for the
is apt to throw things very much out of way in which he has thrown himself into
their proper gear. For my part, I can this matter. When we recollect the hard
say that the patience and kindliness with work he has performed, and the many ques-
which every suggestion I have made for tions which he has always so courteously
the conduct of business has been received answered, I am sure that we must all feel
by hon. members has deeply impressed me, that in him we have had a guide, philoso
and that I owe them my warmest grati- pher, and friend, and one who has taken a
tude for their kind co-operation, exhibited a great deal of trouble to keep us all well
in such an extremely courteous and gener- posted on this matter.
posted on this matter. I am sure we will
ous manner. I have nothing more than all separate feeling that we are better
that to say, except that I trust tbe same friends, if that be possible, than we were
feeling of approximation which has char- when we commenced our labours. I regret
acterised this session of the Convention, that we have to meet again, because it will
and the marked growth in federal feeling be an inconvenience to many of us.
At
since our deliberations in Adelaide, will the same time, it will be a great pleasure
continue and expand during our delibera- to us all, I am sure, to meet again and con-
tions in Melbourne. If it does so, and so tinue the work we bave been engaged on
long as we adhere—as I am sure we shall now for so long. We will reassemble,
—to that which we consider just to the perhaps, with a greater determination than
several colonies entering into this union, as ever to try to meet one another's views as
long as we adhere to that principle, then far as possible, and to keep our eyes upon
the more the feeling I allude to grows, the the main object we have in view. I feel
more certain will the conviction be, not sure that when we do meet the timidity
only amongst ourselves, but out of doors, of these colonies having the larger popu-
that in this present movement the federal lations in regard to the smaller ones
principle will find its consummation in a will have somewhat disappeared. They
great statute which will bind the colonies will have no fear, I am sure, as they to
together for erer.
some extent had during this session, that
The Hon. A. DEAKIN (Victoria) the smaller colonies will, even if they had
[3:40]: I have one sentence to say, and the power, any inclination to do them any
that is on behalf, I am sure, of the whole injury.
of the Convention. If its leader bas rea-
The Hon. A. DEAKIN: We fear most
.
son to speak in the generous terms which while the hon, member is here !
he has employed of the courtesy and con- The Right Hon. Sir JOHN FORREST:
sideration which have been shown to him, I am sure that the smaller col-nies having
we certainly cannot have surpassed, if we a smaller population will approach the
have equalled, the courtesy and considera- subject with as generous a feeling as it is
tion which he has shown to us.
possible for us to do. What we will try
[The Hon. E. Barton.
Adjournment. [24 SEPT., 1897.] Adjournment. 1109
ones.
occur.
to do is to have confidence in the constitu- commendation. When we remember that
tion which we are framing. For my own this is simply a work of patriotism, I feel
part, and I have often expressed the same sure that the labour which has been in-
sentiments in Committee, I have no fear volved is not only appreciated by the mem-
myself that the larger populations will ever bers of the Convention but by the people
do an injustice to the smaller, or that of Australasia.
the smaller, even if they had the power, The Right Hon. Sir E. BRADDON
will ever desire to do any injustice to the (Tasmania) [3:46]: I indorse most cor-
larger. One hope I think I may express dially, and to the fullest extent, all that
-it is a general observation not applic- has fallen from previous speakers by way
able to any particular colony—and it is of thanks to the leader of the Convention,
that this matter of federation will be kept to his colleagues on the Drafting Commit-
away as far as possible from party politics tee, to the President, and to the Chairman
in the smaller colonics as well as the larger of Committees. But for the fact that we
If the leaders of parties in the still look forward, and with great hope
various colonies strive to make this a party and pleasure, to having you, Mr. President,
measure, and to take advantage of any of with us still further, enjoying the value of
its provisions for party purposes, a very your services, and for the finaltime I hope,
great deal of difficulty and danger will I would say more than I am called upon
I would again express my thanks to say. I am, however, as fully seized as
to our friend, Mr. Barton, and also to the anyone can be, and as every member of
Drafting Committee, to whom we are under the Convention must be, of the very valu-
a deep obligation. I would also like to able, kindly, and courteous services ren-
express to you, sir, and to the Chairman dered by all to this Convention.
of Committees, our thanks for the manner The Hon. Sir R. C. BAKER (South
in which you each performed your arduous Australia) (3:47]: I am exceedingly obliged
duties. In regard to our friend, Sir Richard to the Right Hon. Sir John Forrest for
Baker, I could not help thinking to myself the kindly remarks he has made concern-
many times during this session it was a ing myself, and I can assure the members
fortunate thing for me that I had not of the Convention that any assistance I
gained such a reputation for knowledge of may have given in the carrying out of this
parliamentary procedure as to place me in great work has been given most cordially.
the Chairmanship of Committees, because The labours of the Chairman of the Com-
it seemed to me that his labours were mittee are sometimes tiresone, but on this
almost continuous and very difficult. Both occasion they have been greatly lightened
you, sir, and the Chairman of Committees by the courtesy of the members towards
may be assured that while you have our the Chair, by the manner in which they
greatest respect you also have our sincere always fell in with any suggestions made
thanks.
for the orderly carrying out of business ;
The Hon. J. N. BRUNKER (New and more especially is that so in reference
South Wales) [3.45] : I would like to add to the leader of the Convention. I am
another word of praise. I am sure that perfectly certain it would have been impos-
the tact, energy, and ability displayed by sible for us to have found any one who
our worthy leader in dealing with one of could bave carried out those great and
the most delicate matters with which he onerous duties in a more capable manner
could possibly have to deal—the framing of than has been done by our leader. That
a constitution--are worthy of our highest is the opinion, I am sure, not only of this
1
1110
Adjournment.
Adjournment.
[24. SEPT., 1897.]
Convention, but of the people of this great learned friend, Sir Richard Baker, for his
Australian continent. I hope that when great tact, great promptitude, and great
we meet again we may finally consummate discrimination as Chairman of Committees.
this work, that the constitution which will As an old Speaker, I can say that I do not
be adopted will be a constitution founded think that I have ever seen a more tho-
on justice and equity; that it will be one roughly quick-witted, and a more thoroughly
which will be acceptable to the people of skilful and considerate Chairman. Let me
all the colonies; and that it will crown the add that, although the time has not yet
edifice which we have been so laboriously come for votes of thanks, we must all ex-
constructing during the last six or seven
press our sense of the valuable and learned
years.
services which, for the second time, have
The Hon. E. BARTON New South been rendered by one of the most able
Wales) [3.49]: I should be very ungrate authorities on parliamentary law and prac-
ful if I did not say one word of thanks to tice in the colonies I mean the Clerk of
hon. members for the praise which they the Convention.
have heaped upon me, and which I fear I
The PRESIDENT : Before putting the re-
so little deserve. It is a labour of love to
solution, I should like to say that I indorse
me to do anything in my power to help most heartily every
most heartily every word of congratulation
forward the consummation of the union of that has been uttered in regard to those
Australia. I do not know what my tem-
who occupy positions on the floor of the
perament may be in other respects, but I
House, and that we have every reason,
think I always find that the harder the
indeed, to be proud of the courtesy and
work is, in connection with this subject, at
capacity—the magnificent capacity.—with
any rate, the more ready am I to under-
which our leader has, during this session
take it. There is a stimulus in a move-
and the last, conducted the great work of
ment of this kind which is mostly absent
Australian federation towards wbat I be-
from other public movements. It is not
lieve will shortly be the goal of its accom-
because it is surrounded by mere questions plishment. My position officially on this
of sentiment—although sentiment is one
occasion has been little other than an
of the most powerful agents in all politics honorable sinecure ; but I should like to
but because the realisation of the ma-
say that I yield to none in my admiration
terial benefits which may and will be
of the untiring zeal and magnificent ability
derived from it by every colony concerned,
with which our Chairman of Committees
presses so upon the mind that he would be
has performed the arduous duties attaching
indolent and dull-witted indeed who could
to his position.
not, in the realisation of all the greatness
Question resolved in the affirmative.
of those returns for any labour that he may
undertake, find a satisfaction in his work The PRESIDENT: This Convention stands
which no other work could give him. adjourned until Thursday, the 20th day of
Being in a position which, I suppose, has January next, at 12 o'clock, noon, when
given me exceptional opportunities of ob-
it will meet at Parliament Houses, in
servation, I join very heartily in the praise
Melbourne.
that has been bestowed upon my hon, and Convention adjourned at 3:54 p.m.
OCT 1" 1917
.
SYDNEY:
WILLIAM APPLEGATE GULLICK, GOVERNMENT PRINTER.
1897.
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