|63, 3-ft S. HRG. 110–1017 ALTERNATIVES TO THE CURRENT FEDERAL ESTATE TAX SYSTEM HEARING BEFORE THE OOMMITTEE ON FINANCE UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION MARCH 12, 2008 § w- UNIVERSITY OFMCHEN The University L}BRARFS of Michigan º, & Gº Documents MAY l, 2010 Center Printed for the use bf the Cºsº DEP UNITED STATES OF AMERICA U.S. GovIRNMiſſºt Tºrºſai; 54–663—PDF WASHINGTON : 2008 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800 Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001 COMMITTEE ON FINANCE MAX BAUCUS, Montana, Chairman JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West Virginia CHUCK GRASSLEY, Iowa KENT CONRAD, North Dakota ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah JEFF BINGAMAN, New Mexico OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts JON KYL, Arizona BLANCHE. L. LINCOLN, Arkansas GORDON SMITH, Oregon RON WYDEN, Oregon r JIM BUNNING, Kentucky CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York - MIKE CRAPO, Idaho DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan PAT ROBERTS, Kansas MARLA CANTWELL, Washington JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada KEN SALAZAR, Colorado JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire RUSSELL SULLIVAN, Staff Director KOLAN DAVIS, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel (II) C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Baucus, Hon. Max, a U.S. Senator from Montana, chairman, Committee on Finance ............................ • * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Grassley, Hon. Chuck, a U.S. Senator from Iowa ................................................. WITNESSES Batchelder, Lily, professor, New York University, School of Law, New York, NY Dodge, joseph, professor, Florida State tiniversity, Čoliege of faw, failahas. see, FL ..…. Duff, David, professor, University of Toronto, Faculty of Law, Toronto, On- tario, Canada … ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL Batchelder, Lily: Testimony .....................................................................…...... ....................... Prepared statement .......................................................................................... Responses to questions from committee members ........................... • e º e º e º g º gº e e s e e Baucus, Hon. Max: Opening statement ........................................................................................... Bunning, Hon. Jim: Prepared statement ............................................................ , t e º e º e º $ tº e º e º & © tº e & g g tº e e º 'º $ 3 e º 'º Cantwell, Hon. Maria: Prepared statement .......................................................................................... Dodge, Joseph: Testimony ...........................................…...........…...…................ Prepared statement ................................................................….................. Responses to questions from committee members ......................................... Duff, David: Testimony .......................... * * * * g º e g º g g º g g g : º g º a g º g g g g g tº º ºs e º ºs º 'º º sº º º ºs º gº & # tº 8 e º ºs e º & tº $ tº $ tº gº & © tº e º & e º 'º gº tº e º 'º gº tº º º e º 'º º ve Prepared statement with attachment ............................................................. Grassley, Hon. Chuck: Opening statement ........................................................................................... Mahoney, Hon. Tim: . Prepared statement .......................................................................................... Roberts, Hon. Pat: Prepared statement .......................................................................................... COMMUNICATIONS American Family Business Institute ..................................................................... American Farm Bureau Federation .................... e º e s tº e º e º ºs e < e < e e it e º is e º e < * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Anthony Timberlands .............................................................................................. Blum, Warren I. ........…....…....…........... National Cattlemen's Beef Association .................................................................. RATA Associates, LLC ............................................................................................ Schumaker Trucking and Excavating .................................................................... Simkins-Hallin …..…...….......................... (III) Page ALTERNATIVES TO THE CURRENT FEDERAL ESTATE TAX SYSTEM Wednesday, MARCH 12, 2008 U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, Washington, DC. The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in room SD—215, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Max Baucus (chairman of the committee) presiding. - Present: Senators Lincoln, Salazar, Grassley, Kyl, and Bunning. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MAX BAUCUS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON FINANCE The CHAIRMAN. The hearing will come to order. Edmund Burke once criticized his opponents by saying, “They de- fend their errors as if they were defending their inheritance.” We are here today to examine the estate tax. We are here today to con- sider whether taxing estates is an error, and we are here today to examine whether there are other ways to address inheritance. This is a second hearing in a series of hearings focusing on estate tax reform. We hold a third when we return in April. Now usually, when people talk about estate tax, they focus on the current sys- tem. They talk about a little change here, a little change there. They talk about turning one dial a quarter to the left, turning an- other dial a quarter to the right. They work on the issue as though they were tuning a radio. - In this hearing, we put the old radio aside. Today we are going to take a look at other concepts, other ways to deal with inherit- ance outside of the box. Under current law, the estate tax changes every year through 2011. Every year, the law changes. The law phases out completely and then it springs back to its original high rate and low exemption level. - Our estate tax law is complicated. It is intimidating to small businesses, ranchers, and farmers. The law lacks certainty for the American people. We seriously need estate tax reform. I know that accomplishing an estate tax mark-up this year will not be easy, but let us work toward that goal. I am committed to getting estate tax reform done, and I am ready to roll up my sleeves and work with Senators to get a reform proposal that will benefit Montana, and the rest of the country. These Finance Committee hearings will give us a review of some reform possibilities. These Finance Committee hearings will begin a good policy debate, and I hope that the debate will lead to a bi- partisan estate tax compromise. (1) 2 Today we will hear about taxing the beneficiary rather than the estate. We will hear about an income exclusion system, and we will hear about how other countries deal with this issue and the re- sults. Now, I do not endorse any of these proposals, certainly not at this time. They are very interesting, but they are not ones that I yet endorse. What I do want is the committee to have thought widely about the possibilities for replacing the estate tax, so today we are not going to defend the tax law's errors. Today we are going to talk about fundamental change to the estate tax, and in so doing see if we can leave a better inheritance for everyone.” The first witness is Professor Lily Batchelder, professor at New York University Law School. I am very proud to note that in her earlier career Professor Batchelder served as a law clerk for the Fi- nance Committee. In fact, I was just talking with Jon Selib in my office, and how he and Lily were here at the same time as interns, and he has a very high regard for you, Professor. I know you have been talking with him since you have come back, but again, he has very high regard for you. The second witness is Professor Joseph Dodge, professor at Flor- ida State University College of Law. Also, we have with us Pro- fessor David Duff, who is professor from the University of Toronto in Canada. Thank you all for coming. It is our practice here that every witness speaks 5 minutes, and your statements will automatically be included in the record. Why don’t you go ahead, Professor Batchelder? STATEMENT OF LILY BATCHELDER, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY, SCHOOL OF LAW, NEW YORK, NY Prof. BATCHELDER. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Lily Batchelder. I am an associate professor of law and public policy at NYU’s School of Law. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I would like to briefly discuss the distribution of inherited income and estate tax burdens under current law, and then discuss two re- form options. Both of these could be implemented on a revenue- neutral basis and I think would make the estate tax system better targeted on the unearned income that extraordinary inheritances represent. As I have outlined in my written testimony, wealth transfers tend to significantly exacerbate existing economic disparities. Surachai Khitatrakun and I have estimated that, in 2009, heirs will inherit about $400 billion. While people of all income levels often receive relatively small inheritances associated with the fam- ily bonds that I think we do, and should, value, a very small num- ber of people at the top receive extraordinarily large inheritances. For example, Figure 2 in my written testimony shows that, on average, inherited income of those in the top 1 percent of the inher- itance distribution is about 34 times larger than the average inher- itance of all others receiving a bequest in a given year. * For more information, see also, “Description and Analysis of Alternative Wealth Transfer Tax Systems,” Joint Committee on Taxation staff report, March 10, 2008 (JCX-22–08), http:/ /www.jct.gov/publications.html?func=startdown&id=1318. 3 And I think this concentration of inheritances is important be- cause it means that they are exacerbating existing economic dis- parities. About 40 percent of all household wealth is inherited. I think it is also important because disparities in inherited income appear to be the single largest barrier to intergenerational eco- nomic mobility. - The current estate tax system is the most important mechanism by which the fiscal system mitigates the effects of inheritances on economic mobility. This is the case because, under the estate tax system, the burden actually generally falls on heirs and not donors. As Figure 4 in my written testimony shows, on average, the estate tax only burdens heirs who receive really extraordinarily large in- heritances. - To me, this means that it is not really a double tax on the dece- dent, who may have worked very hard to accumulate this wealth, but instead it is a tax on a major source of unearned income of those who are fortunate enough to be born into a family that leaves them a really extraordinarily large inheritance. The estate tax system is a blunt instrument, though. In my view, its biggest weakness is that this relationship between, on one hand, the heir's financial circumstances, and on the other hand, the es- tate tax burden, is relatively imprecise. Some people receiving rel- atively modest bequests may bear a substantial tax burden if they are inheriting from an extremely large estate, and some people re- ceiving really extraordinarily large inheritances may bear no estate tax burden if they are receiving from one or more estates that are just below the lifetime exemption. This basically happens because, under the current system, the tax rate depends on the amount transferred and not the amount inherited. There is an opportunity for reform in 2009 because of the un- thinkable, in my view, incentives created by a 1-year repeal of the estate tax. I think we should use this opportunity not to repeal the estate tax, but to reform it so that it is really better targeted on extraordinary amounts of inherited income. The option I would like to discuss first, which in my view is the best alternative, would be to replace the current system with a comprehensive inheritance tax. Under this alternative, an indi- vidual inheriting an extraordinary amount over their lifetime would pay income tax and a flat 15-percent tax on a portion, and only a portion, of that inheritance. So in effect, extraordinary in- heritances would then be taxed at the same rate that earned in- come is now taxed under the income and payroll tax. We have estimated that this reform could be implemented on a revenue-neutral basis relative to 2009 law if about the first $2 mil- lion in inheritances were tax-exempt. To state the obvious, $2 mil- lion is a big inheritance. If an heir inherits this amount at age 18, he and his spouse can live off the inheritance for the rest of their lives without ever working and their annual household income will be higher than that of 9 out of 10 American families. If this proposal were adopted, it would have important effects. The distribution of burdens among heirs under the estate tax would stay relatively similar on average, but Figure 8 of my writ- ten testimony shows that the burdens would be allocated very dif- ferently at an individual level. It shows that about 60 percent of 4 heirs burdened by the estate tax would bear no tax burden under this inheritance tax, and, among those who are burdened by both taxes, their rate would often be very different. I think these differences illustrate how this reform would im- prove the equity of the wealth transfer tax system because it would base the tax rate on the person that actually bears the burden of the tax, the heir, and it would make it better targeted on the un- fair advantages that exceptionally large inheritances create. It would also have some other advantages. It could simplify current law. It would only burden about 3 heirs in 1,000. But I do want to mention a second alternative because this is very ambitious, which would be to simplify current law. The CHAIRMAN. If you could, very briefly. Prof. BATCHELDER. Sure. There are a bunch of simplification op- tions that one could apply to current law. For example, allowing carry-overs of the lifetime exemption for spouses, narrowing the differences between the tax rates on gifts and bequests, reforming the treatment of illiquid assets, including family businesses. I think all of these options are worth considering as well and could ; implemented on a revenue-neutral and distributionally neutral aSIS. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Professor, very much. That is very interesting. [The prepared statement of Professor Batchelder appears in the appendix.] The CHAIRMAN. Professor Dodge? STATEMENT OF JOSEPH DODGE, PROFESSOR, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY, COLLEGE OF LAW, TALLAHASSEE, FL Prof. DODGE. Thank you, Chairman Baucus, Senator Grassley, committee members. Well, I think the existing system is seriously flawed. It is quite easy to plan around. It does not really serve directly a purpose, as Professor Batchelder explained. It sort of creates incentives for wealth to either be destroyed or to be hidden. So now you have a great opportunity, since the estate tax is scheduled to expire soon, to in a sense start over again and come up with a better system. But there are basically two different tracks that can be followed here, as I see it. One is reforming the income tax system, which sort of has a gap with respect to gifts and bequests. The other has to do with a better wealth transfer tax system which serves a dif- ferent purpose. I would say the purpose is to mitigate undue dis- parities of unearned wealth, to further the dispersal of wealth. As a general matter, I do not think the income tax and the transfer taxes should be blended. I do not think features of a transfer tax should be imported into the income tax. So in general, I do favor transferee-oriented taxes. I really do not have anything significant to add to that, except taxes on transferee directly tie in to goals of preventing undue accumulation of un- earned wealth, furthering equality of opportunity, and encouraging the dispersion of wealth. So apart from the accessions tax, the other transferee-oriented system that I want to talk about is what I call the income inclusion 5 approach, which involves treating gifts and bequests as income to the transferee without a deduction to the transferor. If this system were adopted, then another income tax alternative, which would be to tax gains and losses at death or gift, would not be necessary. Of course, that system of taxing gains and losses at transfer is a system that Canada now has. That is fine standing alone, but it should not be combined with including gifts and bequests as in- come. Basically, receipts of gratuitous transfers are income. If the statutory exclusions were repealed, they would be included as in- COIſle. ... - Well, I see time is flying. So I want to mention, briefly, some of the features of the income inclusion proposal as I see it. There would be no lifetime exemption, as such. However, support received would be excluded, as under present law. Third party payment of bills would be excluded. That is like tuition and health care. Gifts of consumable items should be excluded, the general idea being that things that look like support would be excluded from the tax base. Even bequests could be excluded under certain circum- stances, like bequests received by persons under 25. They could be annuitized and treated as support. There could also be an exclu- sion, within reason, for tangible personal property because that ba- sically represents a consumption decision by somebody else. Next, the income tax has a realization principle so that gifts and bequests received in kind would not necessarily have to be taxed upon receipt, but instead they could be taxed later on. Now, prob- ably marketable, publicly traded, highly liquid assets should be in- cluded, but hard-to-value assets, which would include, of course, closely held business interests and some real estate, would not be income upon receipt, but instead the income would be deferred through a zero-basis mechanism. So either you would have a stepped-up basis if an item were included, or you would have zero basis, but historical basis would be erased. Well, there are other features. I see my time is up. But basically the system would be integrated with the existing income tax sys- tem, including subchapter J dealing with the taxation of trusts and beneficiaries. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Professor, very much. [The prepared statement of Professor Dodge appears in the ap- pendix.] - The CHAIRMAN. Professor Duff? STATEMENT OF DAVID DUFF, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, FACULTY OF LAW, TORONTO, ONTARIO, CANADA Prof. DUFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks to the com- mittee for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is David Duff, and I am a professor of tax law and pol- icy at the University of Toronto, Faculty of Law, where I have taught since 1996. - My testimony today is based on two articles that I have written on wealth transfer taxation, and they are appended to my written testimony. . The first argues for a wealth transfer tax in the form of an acces- sions tax, which would apply to the cumulative amount of gifts and 6 inheritances that are received by individuals over the course of their lifetimes rather than aggregate amounts given by donors over the course of their lifetimes, as is the case with the current Federal wealth transfer tax system in the U.S. The second article attempts to explain the apparent political unpopularity of wealth transfer taxes and the abolition of these taxes in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, which repealed their estate and gift taxes in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. - Beginning with the first article, let me briefly explain why I think that a society should tax transfers of wealth and why an ac- cessions tax is a better tax for this purpose than the current Fed- eral wealth transfer tax system in the United States. As a philosophical matter, I believe that it is both legitimate and desirable for a society to moderate extreme inequalities in the dis- tribution of wealth and in the opportunities that wealth provides by taxing substantial gifts and inheritances above a generous ex- emption. While I believe that a society should value and encourage the family bonds that are associated with the transfer of assets from one generation to another—and I think that is particularly the case with family heirlooms, family enterprises, family farms—I believe that this value needs to be balanced against the negative social and political consequences for a democratic society that can result from the transfer of large dynastic fortunes from one generation to the next. In addition, to the extent that recipients have not earned the gifts and inheritances that they receive largely because of the luck of their birth, I do not believe that they can legitimately complain about a tax that requires them to share some of their good fortune with others who have not been so lucky. From this perspective, it is clear why an accessions tax would be a better tax than the cur- rent Federal wealth transfer tax system in the United States. While the current gift and estate tax applies to aggregate amounts transferred by donors over the course of their lifetimes and at death—regardless of how this wealth is distributed among recipients—an accessions tax would apply to the cumulative value of gifts and inheritances that are received by beneficiaries over the course of their lifetimes, which are, after all, the amounts that ac- tually contribute toward inequalities in wealth and opportunities. As well, the current gift and estate tax sends exactly the wrong message about a wealth transfer tax by taxing successful, hard- working and generous donors who have accumulated wealth out of income on which they have often already paid tax. In contrast, an accessions tax sends a very different—and I be- lieve justifiable—message, by taxing the beneficiaries of substantial gifts and inheritances on amounts that they themselves have not earned and on which they themselves have not paid any tax. Why then do wealth transfer taxes seem to be so politically unpopular, and why were they abolished in Canada, Australia, and New Zea- land? - Although I do not have time to go into all the details here, it is important to note that the wealth transfer taxes in each of these countries were estate and gift taxes, much like the current wealth transfer taxes in the United States. For this reason they were vul- 7 nerable to the same kinds of criticisms that have been rightly di- rected at the Federal estate and gift taxes in the United States: that they impose a second tax on donors who have accumulated wealth out of income on which they have already paid tax, and that they punish their success, hard work, and generosity. As well, since affluent retirees can avoid donor-based wealth transfer taxes by moving to jurisdictions without these taxes, es- tate and gift taxes like those that existed in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are also vulnerable to competition from jurisdictions that do not collect these taxes. This is probably not as big a con- cern in a large country like the United States, but was a significant concern in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. - In contrast, since recipient-based wealth transfer taxes, like an accessions tax, apply to gifts and inheritances that are received by younger and less geographically mobile recipients, they are much, much less vulnerable to this kind of tax competition. As a result, when one surveys wealth transfer taxes around the world, it is not surprising that it is recipient-based taxes that have been far more resilient than donor-based taxes, and in fact in several countries account for a larger share of total tax revenue and Gross Domestic Product today than they did 30 years ago. In conclusion, therefore, I believe that questions of principle, as well as practical politics, support replacing the current Federal wealth transfer tax system in the United States with an accessions tax that would apply to the amount of gifts and inheritances re- ceived by individuals over the course of their lifetimes. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Professor. That was very interesting. d [The prepared statement of Professor Duff appears in the appen- ix.] - The CHAIRMAN. Senator Grassley, do you have a statement? Senator GRASSLEY. Yes, if I could, please. The CHAIRMAN. Sure. Senator GRASSLEY. Just a short one. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHUCK GRASSLEY, - A U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA Senator GRASSLEY. I apologize for being a little bit late. First of all, it is very important that we deal with this issue, because 2010 and 2011 are just around the corner and it is something we should have dealt with if we wanted to make estate planning easier for everybody. I bear some responsibility for that because I was chair- man of this committee for a while as well. Because of these dates, it has become imminently necessary to discuss, and hopefully to de- termine, the fate of the estate tax. As I have stated before, I believe that the death tax is fundamen- tally unfair from both a philosophical and technical perspective. I do not believe that it is appropriate for government to come in fol- lowing the death of an individual and tax the money that a person has legally earned and saved during his lifetime. Additionally, since the estate tax has to be paid 9 months after the death of an individual, many small business people and farm- ers have had to sell off their business assets simply to pay the death tax arising solely because of the death of a prior owner. To me, this situation is fundamentally wrong because death should 8 not be a taxable event and government should not be profiting from death. - While my personal view of repeal is firm, I understand that other alternatives need to be explored in order to come to a fiscally ap- propriate compromise prior to the sunset of the 2001 reforms and the return of exorbitant rate schedules for 2011, with a 1-year re- peal in 2010. I am going to be working towards that compromise. Many of my colleagues have discussed changes to the current rate and exemption schedules, and their suggestions are well re- ceived. However, beyond these suggestions, both the chairman and I believe that it would be helpful and informative, as we are hear- ing today from academics and experts who have written extensively in this area, for the committee to have another hearing to address other issues in the current estate tax system if it remains un- changed following the expiration of the 2001 reforms. Finally, the chairman and I believe that it is important to draw on the experiences of other countries, and we have heard about that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. . A question comes to my mind. These are all very interesting ideas. That is, transition rules. Say we were to move toward an ac- cession type of system, inheritance rather than tax to the trans- feror. What kind of transition rules do you contemplate? Professor Batchelder? Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. I think there are a couple of alternatives. I would actually suggest— The CHAIRMAN. And I would say, because people plan. They plan their estates. Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. A lot goes into planning by a lot of people, and then, lo and behold, it becomes a totally different system. Just your thoughts on transition. Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. Yes. Well, there is one country that, to my knowledge, has transferred from an estate tax to an inheritance tax, which was Ireland. What they did was have the transition occur prior to enactment. One of the issues is, if you enact an in- heritance tax and have it go into effect right after the bill passes, many people, knowing that the bill will pass, will max out their lifetime gift tax exemption. So in order to prevent that kind of gaming, I would recommend having the transition occur maybe back to the date of introduction or some prior date. - You could give credit for prior taxes paid, but I actually think that would give relatively small benefits, because most people who receive a substantial inheritance just receive one. In some of the data that I have looked at with my co-author, we find that, of peo- ple who inherit $1.7 million or more, that tends to represent, if they inherit that in 1 year, 94 percent of their lifetime inherit- ances. So giving them credit for prior taxes paid may not be nec- essary, but it certainly is an option. The CHAIRMAN. Again, in Ireland, why the change? Do you know much about what happened in Ireland? 9 Prof. BATCHELDER. As far as I know, it has been very successful. It has been in place for about 30 years, and it is sort of similar to the accessions tax that Professor Duff was describing in terms of aggregating your inheritances over time and applying a tax rate to the amount received. The CHAIRMAN. But is the amount of income taxes or the revenue gain saved by the government about the same, or not? . Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. I do not have this in my written testi- mony, but the percentage of tax revenues raised from most transfer taxes cross-nationally is generally around 1 or 2 percent, and actu- ally, inheritance taxes are much, much more common than estate taxes. --- . The CHAIRMAN. But even those countries that have inheritance tax, it is about 1 percent? Prof. BATCHELDER. One to 2 percent. Some go up to 6 percent. It varies to some degree. - . The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. Duff, transition? Prof. DUFF. Well, it is not an area I have actually done work in because, of course, in my context we abolished these things, so the transition would be starting from scratch. The CHAIRMAN. Right. Right. Prof. DUFF. And that poses much more significant issues than in the U.S., where the incentives obviously would not be as significant to game the system as if you are starting from scratch. I think, ac- tually, Professor Batchelder has written about some of this. I think the transition issues where you already have an estate tax are not so serious because you already have something in place. - I think one thing that could be considered is a credit for prior estate taxes paid, but I think, as Professor Batchelder points out, it is not a huge issue because, for the most part, you get an inherit- . once and you do not receive these small amounts over a period of time. The CHAIRMAN. So what is wrong with this idea? I mean, there is always the other side of the coin. What are the down sides of an inheritance as opposed to estate tax? Prof. DUFF. I actually find it difficult to see what the down side is. I am surprised that the world has not moved in this direction. I think if the U.S. were to do this, it would be a leader in this and a lot of other countries would follow. º: CHAIRMAN. If you had to think of a down side, what would it be? - Prof. BATCHELDER. I can offer a down side. - The CHAIRMAN. All right. . Prof. BATCHELDER. It sort of depends on your perspective. It does change incentives for giving. I tend to see this as a bit of an up side, that it creates an incentive for very wealthy households to dis- tribute their wealth more broadly. But people may not like that. It also would shift, to some degree, the incentives regarding char- itable contributions, so in general, because charities are tax- exempt, they would not be subject to an inheritance tax, because when they receive inherited income that is not income. It might change the charities eligible for that exemption. Right now, my un- derstanding is that certain charities, including 501(c)(4)s, are not 10 eligible for the estate and gift tax exemption. They presumably would be for an inheritance tax exemption. The CHAIRMAN. Professor Dodge? Prof. DODGE. Well, the charitable community might not like it because they might actually prefer that wealth be highly con- centrated so that the tax incentives for giving to charity would be maximized. The CHAIRMAN. What about the countries you mentioned, Pro- fessor Duff? I am now addressing charitable giving. Is there as much, less, say in those countries compared with the U.S., and does it have any effect? Does the form of wealth transfer in those countries have an effect? Prof. DUFF. I think there have been studies that suggest there is less charitable giving in Canada than in the U.S., but of course we do not have any kind of wealth transfer tax system that creates those incentive at all. So, if you get rid of the taxes altogether, I think the evidence is that there is actually less of an incentive for charitable giving. But that is an argument for some kind of wealth transfer tax system, not an argument for a particular kind, nec- essarily. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Grassley? Thank you very much. Very interesting. Senator GRASSLEY. Yes. I am going to start with Ms. Batchelder. One of our concerns with your program is the potential that a fam- ily farm or small business, whose assets by their nature are il- liquid, will have to sell the assets of their business in order to pay off the inheritance tax. I know you address this issue in your paper by suggesting that an heir can defer payment of the inheritance tax based on illiquidity, while requiring the heir to pay a market rate of interest on the amount that was deferred. What argument could you make that this market rate of interest requirement would not ultimately be more punitive in nature to the small business owner/farmer who may not even have the cash on hand to pay this amount of interest on the business or farm that they have inherited? Prof. BATCHELDER. Thank you. Well, I guess one response I would have is, I think you could defer the interest as well. So the general idea was that, if you inherit a business and you do not in- herit liquid assets sufficient to pay the associated tax liability, that you would be able to defer those taxes due with interest. I would be fine with deferring the interest payments until you actually sell that business. Frequently, with family businesses, heirs do choose § sell them just because they do not wish to continue operating them. There are a number of provisions within current law to address family businesses. To my knowledge—but you may very well know of people who have been forced to sell their business—there has not been a family farm that has been forced to be sold under the cur- rent provisions, but I do think it is worth trying to establish the rules that make that not even a theoretical possibility, which is, I think, what this proposal could do. - Senator GRASSLEY. Mr. Duff, was it the experience of Canada, New Zealand, and Australia that the estate tax was replaced by a less divisive tax, like sales tax or value added tax, to replace the 11 revenue which was lost based on the estate tax repeal, or was the revenue simply lost? The reason I ask this is because it would be instructional to know what tax had to ultimately rise in order to replace the revenue lost from the repeal of the estate tax or wheth- er it simply went away with nothing to take its place. Prof. DUFF. Right. Well, to answer that, one has to understand the nature of taxes that are based on the English model. Histori- cally, neither Canada, nor Australia, nor New Zealand taxed cap- ital gains at all, so capital gains in Canada were not taxable until 1972, in Australia, not until sometime in the 1980s, and New Zea- land, not until the 1990s. So, in fact, what ended up happening in all of these countries is the wealth transfer taxes were repealed and capital gains taxes were introduced. In Canada, actually the way it fell out politically is, it happened at the very same time in 1972, and partly it was because, in Can- ada, a decision was made to tax capital gains at death and there was a sense that the Federal Government had that, well, they should reduce the level of combined taxes on death from a deemed realization at death and the wealth transfer taxes. Their policy was not to eliminate wealth transfer taxes completely because provinces had collected wealth transfer taxes. - The Federal Government in Canada said, we will get out of the area and leave it to provinces to collect their share, but, of course, then what ended up happening is inter-jurisdictional tax competi- tion took over. Once one province was out of the game, others also got out of the game and it all unraveled. A similar phenomenon happened in Australia. In Australia and New Zealand, the wealth transfer taxes were repealed before cap- ital gains tax was introduced, but once the transfer taxes were re- pealed it became a stronger argument for having capital gains tax. In Australia, there is a carry-over basis at death, not a deemed realization at death. So, if one were to say what replaced them, it certainly was not value added tax. In Canada, that did not come until much, much later. It would be capital gains tax, which of course the U.S. has had right from the outset of its income tax. Senator GRASSLEY. Do you want to comment, Mr. Dodge? Prof. DODGE. I wanted to comment on Professor Batchelder's comment. I actually disagree with her on this point. I do not think an interest charge would need to be imposed on deferral because the tax base would grow, because the future tax base would include income and appreciation; therefore, there is no real revenue loss from deferral. In fact, there would be possibly a revenue gain if the greater amount were taxed in higher brackets. So, therefore, I do not think you need an interest charge on deferral. Senator GRASSLEY. All right. Do you want to react to that? Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. I actually do think it would be impor- tant. I think the general philosophy should be to try to not create incentives or disincentives to hold illiquid assets, so not to penalize ºwned businesses, also not to make them especially pre- €I’I'êOl. * In that case, it would be important to have the tax liability be assessed at the time of the transfer with interest, because other- wise you could have people withdraw a lot of the cash from the 12 family business, sort of depreciate the value, and then when they ultimately pay tax, pay a much smaller tax burden, but they effec- tively would have received a huge amount of inheritance just by spending the cash of the business. Senator GRASSLEY. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. Senator Salazar? - Senator SALAZAR. Thank you very much, Chairman Baucus and Ranking Member Grassley, for holding this hearing on this impor- tant issue. I think, at least for me as I approach this issue, one of the big concerns we have had as we look at reform is, how do we deal with the reality of paying the bills of the government? The pay-go rules that we have adopted in this Congress are very important to me, and at least to some members of this committee. So to you, Ms. Batchelder, I would ask this question. On your re- form option one, you say you would impose a 15-percent tax on ex- traordinary bequests that would be beyond the inheritance and you would create some kind of a $2-million exemption. Can you elabo- rate on your proposal and what the consequence of that would be in terms of the fiscal consequence sent to the government? Prof. BATCHELDER. Sure. So the roughly $2-million exemption would be revenue-neutral relative to 2009 estate tax law, which is a $7-million per-couple exemption, $3.5 million per donor. The idea would be that you would include amounts above that $2 million in income and there would be a 15-percent flat tax, so that means that I could inherit $2 million tax-free. If I inherit $3 million, I would include $1 million in income, so it would be subject to the income tax and it would be subject to a 15-percent flat tax, so the marginal tax rate would start off at 15 percent. Senator SALAZAR. So the $2 million, we are taxing the heir. We are taxing the inheritance, we are not taxing the estate, under your concept. That $2-million exemption is a lifetime exemption. It would be similar to, say, a household’s primary residence, the life- time exemption that we have under tax law. Is that the kind of concept that you would be pushing here under that proposal? Prof. BATCHELDER. It would be lifetime inheritances received. And one thing I should note is, the $2-million revenue-neutral threshold is sort of arbitrary relative to 2009 law. In my written testimony I did include our estimates of what the revenue-neutral threshold would be relative to 2008 law, to 2011 law, a few dif- ferent permutations. So it would depend on what revenue baseline Congress would like to set in order to achieve the targeted level of deficit reduction. Senator SALAZAR. Mr. Duff, I will ask you as well. You talk about the importance of I think you said, if we do the accessions tax, philosophically where you approach this issue from, I think your words were that it is all right, a good thing for society to moderate extreme inequalities in wealth. Then you continued on and you said that it is also important to protect certain heirlooms, family farms, family businesses, and the like. How, under your concept of the accessions tax or your reform package number one, would you deal with that issue of those spe- 13 cial properties? I think Senator Baucus, myself, and others on this committee are very concerned about ranchers and farmers, and the fact that we have many estates out there that have a high value but very low cash. One of the things we want to make sure we do is to prevent having farmers and ranchers from having basically to give up the family farm or ranch to pay some kind of an estate tax. That is one of my key interests in dealing with this issue. So how would you deal with that issue under your concepts? Prof. DUFF. Well, I think there are two responses. One, with a significant-enough exemption, it is generally not a problem. The statistics I have seen in the U.S. suggest that, as the exemption in the U.S., the estate tax has gotten high enough. Most of the estates that have these illiquid assets generally have very liquid assets as well. I think the evidence is pretty clear on that. But I agree with Professor Batchelder that, even if in theory there is a problem with illiquid assets, then it should be addressed. As I said, my arguments suggest that there should be a balance be- 5. the values of transferring these kinds of family assets and the tax. Senator SALAZAR. So would you create an exemption then for those illiquid assets under your proposal? Prof. DUFF. I think my preference would be not an exemption, because of course that creates strong incentives for people to trans- fer assets like that and then, of course, liquidate them. So I think a deferral approach, as Professor Batchelder suggests, is probably the best kind of approach to deal with those concerns. Senator SALAZAR. All right. Yes, go ahead. Prof. DODGE. Yes. I guess I also think that deferral is a solution, but I think I might differ from the others. I would defer the taxable event until either sale or cessation of qualified use, as opposed to imposing a tax and then deferring the tax with interest. So I would defer the taxable event and that would also avoid valuation issues. You just wait and see what happens. Senator SALAZAR. Thank you very much. My time is up. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. Senator Bunning? Senator BUNNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Professor Batchelder, in your testimony you referred to inherit- ance income as unearned. But that term is more than a little mis- leading. It is not only earned income, it is earned and previously taxed. If a donor earns $100 of ordinary income and pays 40 per- cent in Federal and State income tax, he or she is left with $60. If the donor dies the next day and decides to leave it to his grown child or children, under your proposal it would be taxed at 54.6 percent in 2011, that is 39.6 plus your 15-percent flat tax. That leaves $27.24 before State death tax, sales tax, and other tax im- posed on the child. I understand you are proposing a $2-million exemption, but that may not be enough if the donor is trying to transfer a farm or a small business. What possible incentive would donors have to build a nest egg to provide for the safety and security of their children and grandchildren if more than 73 percent will be taxed away? I understand your zeal to level our income, but what will you do to 14 the incentive structure that for centuries has motivated Americans to build businesses and create jobs? Prof. BATCHELDER. Well, I would like to make two points. First, with respect to it being a tax on unearned income, I agree that the donor, when we work and we save, we are taxed on that income. They then have a choice about how to spend it. When an heir re- ceives a windfall, which I would view extraordinarily large inherit- ances to be, that is another person getting to choose how to spend that income. Senator BUNNING. What if the first person spent everything? Prof. BATCHELDER. Then they would be taxed on it. Senator BUNNING. Yes. Then they would not be able to provide that second, or first, or fifth, or ninth child with one cent of inherit- aIlC62. Prof. BATCHELDER. Well, I sometimes find double taxes to be a bit of a misnomer, because I think we should have one tax on each person. So if the donor spends it on some jewelry, then the jeweler will pay tax. Senator BUNNING. Why does the government have a right to that money? That is what I want to get at. Prof. BATCHELDER. I do not think it is about a right so much as how we should allocate tax burdens. If someone has inherited more than $2 million over their lifetime, I think they do have a better ability to pay taxes than someone who has not inherited anything and has worked to earn $2 million over their lifetime. So in terms of figuring out— . Senator BUNNING. Well, the same thing would go with that sec- ond person then that went out and earned that § million, or $4 million, or whatever it might be. You are going to confiscate their inheritance for their children the same way. So what is the incen- tive? . Prof. BATCHELDER. The burden, as I mentioned in my testimony, will be borne by the heir. So I think that, in allocating the tax bur- dens between people who inherit extraordinary amounts in society and those who do not, we should be taking into account extraor- dinary amounts of inheritances. For normal inheritances, I fully agree that we should be supporting and encouraging those kinds of family bonds. But once we get above $2 million, that to me becomes— - Senator BUNNING. I have an example. Somebody said that you do not lose family farms. I am going to give you a perfect example how a $12-million estate, in 4 years, disappeared to the tax collector. A $12-million estate. No will by the owner, no will by the spouse. The owner dies, spouse is due for the estate tax. The spouse dies. Now the children inherit the $12 million. Now they have to pay $4 mil- lion in estate tax. This is just as recently as 10 years ago. They cannot pay it. They do not have the liquid assets. So they hock the farm to a bank, and the farm is a horse farm that has to produce so much income to pay off the principal and the interest that they borrowed. Well, the horse business went south and it did not produce the principal and interest enough to ay off that liability. The bank, 4 years later, took the whole estate, § million. This man worked 60 years to build this estate of $12 million, and in 4 years the Federal Government leveled it, totally 15 and completely. It is my daughter-in-law and son, if you really want to know about it. So the Federal Government has a tax event—I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but this gets a little personal be- cause my family was involved. The CHAIRMAN. You go right ahead. Senator BUNNING. And so the tax consequences of dying should not be accompanied with the transfer of that money to the Federal Government. Prof. BATCHELDER. If I could, I am very sorry about that. Senator BUNNING. So am I. Prof. BATCHELDER. Under the proposal I would be advocating for treating family farms and other illiquid assets, there would be no tax due when the transfer occurred. So long as your daughter and son-in-law were operating the farm, that tax liability would just be deferred indefinitely. It would be due only if they decided, we do not want to run it any more, we want the cash, then the tax would be paid and due. But prior to that, there would be no tax due. Senator BUNNING. And what happens if they run it and transfer it to their children? Prof. BATCHELDER. The tax liability would continue to accrue and it would be deferred indefinitely. Senator BUNNING. Deferred as long as a member of the family ran the farm? Prof. BATCHELDER. As long as it is not sold, it stays within the family and is being run by the family, it would not. It would just defer with interest. Senator BUNNING. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Are you ready, Senator Lincoln’ All right. Fine. Senator Lincoln. Senator LINCOLN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks for pulling us together here to have another discussion. . Professor Batchelder, Professor Dodge, and Professor Duff, we thank you for taking time to be here today to discuss an issue that is of tremendous importance to me particularly on behalf of my constituency, to reform the estate tax system. I have been working with my colleagues here on the Senate Fi- nance Committee for more than 5 years, at a minimum, I guess, since 2003, to really try to address the uncertainty that is created. The unknown for any of us is dangerous and creates a tremendous amount of fear, but here in the estate tax system we created that uncertainty with the 2001 law in terms of the cliff that we are going to hit after 2009, people not understanding or being able to plan ahead, and particularly with something that is as precious to them as something that they have spent their life creating, wheth- er it is a business or their family's inheritance or a family farm that has been in the family for generations, or a business that has been in the family for generations. So it is something very tangible and certainly something that I think represents a tremendous amount of who we are as Ameri- cans, that you could work hard all your life to be able to build Something, to pass it on to your children, and then unfortunately find yourself in a situation where, because of the tax system we 16 have created, you would have to sell all of that in order to be able to pay those taxes. But for 5 years, Senator Kyl, Senator Grassley, Chairman Bau- cus, and I, and others have been studying this issue. We have been meeting with experts at the Joint Committee on Taxation. We have been discussing the possible solutions that would bring about relief for our family-owned farms and businesses. Here we are again today, continuing that discussion about this very issue, with an- other discussion expected sometime, I think, in the next work pe- riod. We are going to continue to do that. And certainly I do appreciate the chairman's dedication to this issue, because he truly has been dedicated to it, and the commit- tee's continuing desire to study the issue—and no one can deny that today's hearing, with three professors on our witness panel, is a good way to examine the topic from an academic perspective. But I think, particularly from the perspective of my constituency, it is time for less talk and less study and more in terms of action, in terms of what we can do to provide more predictability and more assurances to families who are working hard every day to build that family business, the opportunity to be able to hand it off to their children, which is what they want more than anything. We have heard from our professors here today who say we should think about other alternative systems. I have to say, with all due respect, I am sorry, but my family-owned businesses in Ar- kansas could really care less whether it is called an estate tax, an inheritance tax, or take-the-money-and-run tax, or whatever we are going to call it. Whatever name we want to put on it and whatever system that you use to collect it, it is all the same for our family- owned businesses and farms that have to pay it. Maybe you have a difference of opinion, and I would certainly be glad to hear that. But whether it is a farmer or a farmer's son that will inherit the business and keep it running, whether it is a meat- packing business, whether it is a small equipment business, what- ever, one of them has to pay the tax and neither of them has the liquidity to be able to deal with that, the liquid capital that they need in order to be able to do that. So changing the method of col- lection is not, in my opinion, going to make that problem go away for a family-owned business. Maybe there are tweaks or bells or whistles that you all have come up with, or ideas—I apologize for being late—that you may have expressed, and we are certainly glad to listen to those. But I do strongly believe that now is the time for action. Two thousand nine is our last year under the 2001 changes before we eliminate the estate tax, and certainly in 2011, we go right back to where we started. I believe that we have the capacity and the capability to reflect our American values in our tax system in a way that is going to be balanced, fair, and is going to help us continue these kind of businesses that are the generators of the good jobs that exist out there in America, not to mention the investment that it makes in this country. So I look forward to working with my colleagues who care about this issue in the weeks and the months ahead to take some real action to address the issue, and I look forward to, again, your perspectives and suggestions. 17 Maybe, Professor Dodge, you would like to start. You were shak- ing your head “no,” that somebody is not going to have to pay that tax if it is an inheritance. Prof. DODGE. Well, it is a fundamentally different tax. It is not the same tax with a different name. Under the current system, the taxable event is the time of the gift or the date of death, and you just have to have that be the taxable event and you have to value the property at that time. But under either the accessions tax or the income inclusion pro- posal, or even under the deemed realization system, the taxable event can be whenever you decide, because they are transferee- oriented systems. So in the case of family farms and closely held business interests, I would propose an inherent or integral part of the transferee- oriented tax—which, by the way, is similar to the realization prin- ciple of the income tax, that the receipt of an interest in a trust or a family business or an illiquid asset is just not a taxable event. Senator LINCOLN. Well, if revenue is coming in, somebody is pay- ing it. Prof. DODGE. What? Senator LINCOLN. If revenue is coming in, someone is paying it. Prof. DODGE. Well, there are other aspects of the tax. This would only be a part of it. Deferral, if these businesses are successful, the tax base will be larger at such time later on that it is taxed. If they are unsuccessful—as in Senator Bunning's case, you will not have a tax liability that is greater than the value of the business. Senator LINCOLN. So you are suggesting that it be deferred to see if the business is going to be successful? Prof. DODGE. No. It has nothing to do with—that is just random. But it would be deferred until such time as the business is either sold or it ceases its qualified use. Senator LINCOLN. What about prepayment? Prof. DODGE. Well, people could elect to prepay, possibly. Senator LINCOLN. For a lower rate. Prof. DODGE. You could build an election. Sometimes people would find it advantageous to accelerate the taxable event. I see no reason not to have that option built into the system. Senator LINCOLN. Professor Batchelder? Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. First, in terms of the difference between an inheritance tax and an estate tax, I would be happy to sort of explain why I think it actually would matter, practically, at the level of who is burdened by the tax. But in terms of illiquid assets in family farms and family-owned businesses, it seems like there are several different approaches we could take. One would be to stick with the sort of patchwork of rules that we have. There was a quote in a book on estate tax repeal that found that both the American Farm Bureau and the New York Times had never identified a single family farm that had been sold to pay the estate tax. We just heard a story of one that had been, so I think it certainly may exist and is a theoretical possibility under the ex- isting rules. And two other possibilities have been discussed. Professor Dodge has discussed the possibility of just not imposing the tax at all 18 until the business is sold, and then imposing it on the value of the business at that time. I would actually prefer an approach where you would determine the tax liability at the time of the transfer, but then defer it indefi- nitely with interest until it was sold. So as long as it is not sold, there would be no tax liability. - - Senator LINCOLN. But there would be tax liability eventually, with interest, which puts the pressure on the business that is mov- ing from one entity to another in terms of management. I mean, if we use the example of Wall Street and publicly traded compa- nies, when the CEO dies, there is no shift there. The liquidity is there in order for those businesses to continue. When you take a shift here from one generation to the next in a family-owned business, a farming operation, or a ranching oper- ation, I mean, all of a sudden you have to come up with the liquid- ity to pay a tax, as well as assuming the management risk and ºther,things like that. How can they be competitive in that sce- Ila YIO ( Prof. BATCHELDER. Well, the concept would be that they would not owe any tax at that time, so there would be no need for liquid- ity because you would owe no tax. It would be deferred until, if the heirs eventually decide they want to cash out, they do not want to run the family business. Then they would be taxed on their inherit- ance to the extent that it exceeds a really high exemption, but if they do not take the cash out they would not be taxed. Senator LINCOLN. Does it make a difference who they sell it to? Prof. BATCHELDER. No, I do not think it necessarily should. Senator LINCOLN. No. We have lost tremendous family-owned businesses, which people here in Washington love to talk about how important family-owned businesses are. We have seen tremen- dous sales of family-owned businesses to major corporations be- cause they cannot survive under the kind of pressures that both these types of tax systems and regulations have on them as small businesses without the capital to be able to survive. I mean, I do not know. If our objective here in this country is to not only create, but perpetuate the American dream that you can build a family-owned business, how are we providing the fertile environment in order for that to continue? If we continue to put the kind of restrictive, both tax laws, but also the same kind of regu- latory burdens that exist for small businesses, I do not know. I am truly an advocate for family-owned businesses because I see the productivity in them and I see the job creation that they pro- vide this country. So, I do not know. I do not see where you are doing anything but putting off the pain. Prof. BATCHELDER. Well, I think it means that there is no liquid- ity crunch. I guess the other point I would make is, I would hate for us to lose sight of the potentially valuable role that making wealth transfer taxes part of the tax system can create in terms of ensuring that economic mobility is distributed more evenly. I would hate for us to be distracted from that by this problem. Just to cite one statistic, the Tax Policy Center has estimated that business and farm assets compose more than half of the estate value for only 2.8 percent of taxable returns, so 97 percent of tax- able returns really do not have a problem right now. 19 I think it is important to remember those 97 percent and think about, do we want this kind of tax within our fiscal system, do we think it is important to recognize the extent to which inheritances can affect someone's ability to pay, just like earning income from work or savings can affect their ability to pay? Senator LINCOLN. So are you saying that 97 percent are not af- fected because they do not reach the amount or is it because they have planned for it? Prof. BATCHELDER. It is because— Senator LINCOLN. There are a lot of resources that, unfortu- nately, family businesses have to spend and devote to mitigating their risk in terms of estate taxes and what their families and their future generations will have to deal with. Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. So this statistic was that over half of taxable estate values are liquid assets. Ninety-seven percent of them have over half of their estate as liquid assets. So I do not know what those liquid assets are, but generally one would think then liquidity is not the issue, that one should be able to pay any associated tax liability and continue the family business, if you so choose, without the tax system preventing you from doing so. The CHAIRMAN. Professor Dodge, you look like you want to get in here. Prof. DODGE. Well, it is hard to tell just from the statistics about liquidity. As Senator Lincoln suggests, there might be pressure to sell to large corporations or there may be purchases of life insur- ance. I do not think the tax law should distort economic decisions such as the purchase of life insurance just to fund the liquidity for the tax. So it is hard to tell. I would not be able to, I submit. Besides, this is obviously an issue of intense interest to the com- mittee. I do not think we need to be absolute purists. So again, I would say that, given the big picture, I think the accessions tax or the income inclusion system is better than the existing system, partly because it is a transferee tax. Again, I would say in the case of illiquid property, that the answer is deferral of the taxable event. That would have two ancillary benefits. First, there would not be any interest charge involved. Second, you would not have to value a closely held business interest. Under present law, valuing closely held business interest is where all kind of estate planning gim- micks are, family-limited partnerships and all that sort of thing. Senator LINCOLN. But would that mean that you would not have a step up in basis when they pass down within the family? You would have to, would you not? Prof. DODGE. Well, if you were going to defer the no, that is an income tax issue. So the accessions tax is a separate tax. Income tax issues are separate. The CHAIRMAN. Let me just ask a question here. Why not, just as these three countries, just abolish the wealth transfer tax and the government just gets the revenue it wants with income tax, or capital gains, or whatnot, as I suppose Australia, Canada, and New Zealand do. I do not know what their taxation system is that real- izes the income. Before I ask you two that question, let me ask Professor Duff. S how do these countries make up for lost revenue? + 20 Prof. DUFF. Well, as I said, in these countries capital gains tax did not exist beforehand, so they introduced capital gains tax and that really was the The CHAIRMAN. Is it higher or lower than the U.S.” Prof. DUFF. It is slightly different. In Canada, we include half the gain in income and then subject it to the ordinary rate, so it is ef- fectively half the ordinary rate. Probably comparable to the U.S., our capital gains tax rate. Maybe a little bit higher. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Prof. DUFF. Our tax rates are a bit higher. The CHAIRMAN. But again, why not— Prof. DUFF. Can I actually address that? Because I do not think those taxes address the key issue, the philosophical issue, about why I think it is legitimate and desirable to tax these transfers of wealth. As I said before Senator Lincoln was here, I think there needs to be balance in a tax system, I think balance in the values that a society has. One value is the value of building up an enter- prise, transferring it to your children, and I think that value is an incredibly important value that should be respected and encour- aged. But it has to be balanced against the concerns about moder- ating significant disparities in wealth and opportunity. The CHAIRMAN. Would you advise those countries to redress that balance? Is there imbalance in those three countries? Prof. DUFF. I think in terms of the transfer of wealth from one generation to the next, there is. - - - The CHAIRMAN. In those three countries. Yes. Well, that might answer your question then, your answer—both your answers—as to why not abolish and address it the way these three countries do, that is, lost revenue. Prof. BATCHELDER. I would just add that, currently, that income tax taxes all the receipts that we have, from work, from saving, from lottery winnings, if you find a fancy painting on the street. That is all income. The one major thing that is included is income from gifts and be- quests. I think that, if we are going to do that within income tax, we should be thinking about how to make sure that that kind of income is still counted in allocating tax burdens, and either an es- tate tax or an inheritance tax is one way to do that. I am less concerned about sort of ordinary inheritances. So most people receive inheritances well below, actually, $100,000. Once you get up to, say, $2 million, that is the top 1 percent of the inher- itance distribution and they are receiving these really extraor- dinarily large inheritances that are not considered at all in allo- cating income tax burdens. - So, if we were to repeal the estate tax and not replace it with anything else that looked at inheritances, we would really be giving a free ride to people who, in my view, are very fortunate to receive such a large inheritance and be born into a family that can afford to give it to them. I am not saying we should tax it all away, but when it really exceeds some extraordinary threshold, we should have them share their good fortune, as Professor Duff said, with everyone else. The CHAIRMAN. So both Professors Dodge and Duff would agree with that general concept? That is, extraordinary wealth should be 21 taxed, that the transferee should pay some tax on extraordinary be- quests. Prof. DODGE. Yes. But it is ultimately a political question, be- cause the idea of an accessions tax is, in a way, kind of different from fixing holes in the income tax. You could do both simulta- neously. Like, you could have a system that, under the income tax, taxed gains and losses at gift or death, and on top of that have an accessions tax with a large exemption. They are just two different taxes. The CHAIRMAN. What do European countries do? - Prof. DUFF. Most European countries levy inheritance type taxes. I am not as familiar with what they do with capital gains at death, whether they have carry-over basis, whether they have deemed re- alizations. I think some have one, some have the other. I think the U.S. is pretty unique in having stepped-up basis around the world, but most continental European countries have a recipient-based tax. The donor-based taxes tend to be something that the English-speaking world has adopted, so England, as I said, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, had them. The U.S. has that ap- proach. It was probably related somehow to common law systems versus civil law systems. The CHAIRMAN. I understand. Senator LINCOLN. Could I ask just a couple? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go ahead. Senator LINCOLN. So, Professor Dodge and Professor Duff—I’m assuming, I guess, Professor Batchelder, too—you really think gov- ernment then should play the role of determining how personal in- come should be divided? I mean, if you are saying that it is redis- tribution and those who are fortunate enough to have worked hard all their life to build something, I mean, the incentive was there that if we build this business we will be able to hand it off to our heirs, our children. But then at that point the government decides whether or not you are going to be able to do that because we are going to redistribute your personal income, your personal wealth in a way that we see fit? Prof. DUFF. As I said, I think there needs to be balance, right? These values are very important, and so, as we have talked about this, I think all of us have said that, for closely held enterprises— farms, certain kinds of family heirlooms—that kind of value is real- ly important and needs to be respected. The best way to, I think, address that is through either deferring the moment of the tax or deferring the tax itself. But it has to be balanced against other val- ues that I think democratic societies hold, which are that when there are extreme inequalities of wealth and opportunities, that is not a healthy thing for a society. Senator LINCOLN. Can you not do that by limits? ºf DUFF. What do you mean by limits? I think that is What— Senator LINCOLN. Amounts. Prof. DUFF. That is what exemptions are about. A basic exemp- tion that says only taxing above very large, substantial gifts and inheritances is, I think, exactly that: a limit. It does not say, well, you cannot do beyond that. It is just, there is a price to be paid beyond that, and the price is to share with the rest of society. You 22 might even say, well, all right, so government requires that shar- ing. Then, of course, people always say, well, it disappears into gov- ernment, right? So then make the sharing explicit. Take the reve- nues and dedicate them to education for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, things that will give people a leg up who do not have that leg up otherwise. - Senator LINCOLN. Right. I do not disagree with you, necessarily. I certainly believe that, as Americans, we all have a huge responsi- bility to give back to this great country that has given us so much in terms of opportunities, and those very opportunities to build a business from nothing or from scratch. But then comes the big question that we always fall over ourselves about here, and that is, where are those limits? How do you determine? - I visited with a man who has spent his life building a small busi- ness, investing in infrastructure and machinery. He has four sons. To say he is limited to an exemption of $1.5 million or $3.5 million does not get him to where he needs to be. He is still going to have to dissolve. Better yet, he will be bought out by some big major, huge corporation because he cannot pass it down to his sons with- out coming up with the liquidity that he needs to do that. Prof. DUFF. This is one of the advantages, of course, of the inher- itance type or accessions approach: four sons, four exemptions, as opposed to four sons, one exemption under the estate tax. You dis- tribute to your four sons, each of them gets, under Professor Batchelder's proposal, a $2-million exemption. That is $8 million of exemption rather than, the current system is what next year? Three or something? - Prof. BATCHELDER. Next year would be $3.5 million. Right now, it is $2 million. Senator LINCOLN. And then back to $1.5 million in 2011, which would be one. - You mentioned the deferral, Professor Dodge, that you thought that might be something that would be very helpful. Of course, we want to create something that not only is going to be, I think, ad- vantageous to making sure that family businesses can continue, but we also want to simplify as we go. I know the chairman has worked tirelessly, working on simplification of the tax code. We do not want to make it any more complicated. But with defer- ral, I am not aware of all of the administrative burdens, but I do understand there are some in terms of the IRS reporting require- ments and other things like that. Is there any issue there? Have you done the research in terms of how that can be simplified? Prof. DODGE. Well, under the accessions tax, that is completely separate from issues like whether there is a carry-over basis or a stepped-up basis. So whatever the basis is for income tax purposes, under accessions tax deferral there would be no valuation at the time of gift or death. There would just not be a taxable event until it is basically con- verted away from the qualified use; that is what you are trying to protect, keeping the business in the family. So, if they sold it, then the proceeds of sale would be subject to accessions tax. If it were a farm and they ceased operating it as a farm and decided to sub- divide it and sell off the lots, well, that would be the triggering event. 23 Senator LINCOLN. What about if it went into conservation? Prof. DODGE. I do not see any administrative problem. All you would have to do is identify property out there that is subject to this system. Senator LINCOLN. Right. So you do not see any worries about ad- ditional reporting or IRS complications or greater need for over- sight. Prof. DODGE. No, that is the problem under the carry-over basis system, because you have an event that supposedly fixes basis, but it does not bear fruit for many years later. But I do not see that as a problem under the accessions tax. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it though, with the other sys- tems, with inheritance systems, there could well be a lot of com- plexity there, too. You do have issues of step-up or carry-over, a number of exemptions. A lot of people do not like the current sys- tem because they do not like paying taxes. But, second, they do not like paying taxes on something they build up, as has been discussed here. The third, it is extremely complex. Estate planning is very, very complex. The question is, if we were to have a system where wealth was transferred on the basis of inheritance, would we necessarily have a much less com- plex system or not? I am just only on complexity at this point. Prof. DUFF. Professor Batchelder has actually talked about this. I think there are lots of advantages to a recipient-based tax over an estate-based tax in terms of simplicity, particularly when you come to dealing with trusts and the generation-skipping tax that exists in the U.S. All that complexity comes from trying to tax on the donor side rather than the recipient side. Actually, I will hand it over to Professor Batchelder because she has written about this. Prof. BATCHELDER. Yes. I actually think there are a number of simplification advantages to an inheritance tax, and also a number of ways that we could simplify current law. Some of the advantages of an inheritance tax you can only get within an inheritance tax. The big issue, I think, is that, whenever you have a tax that is applied to extraordinarily wealthy people with very sophisticated tax advisors, you are going to need some complicated rules because their tax advisors are going to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to game them. The way to prevent that is to treat economically similar trans- actions alike, so that, even if you restructure a transfer, it is all going to be taxed the same way and then there is really no way around it. An inheritance tax, I think, would allow more of that. A par- ticular area that it would is, there are some very complicated rules under current law about split and contingent interests—this is when sort of the ultimate beneficiary is unclear. You create a trust and maybe a portion of it is going to go to the spouse and be ex- empt, or a portion will go to a charity and be exempt, and then a portion is going to go to a taxable beneficiary. We have these very complicated rules to figure out, all right, we think 53 percent is going to go to the tax-exempt beneficiary. An inheritance tax would let you just wait and see, and ultimately whatever goes to the spouse or charity, that is subject to the exemption. Whatever goes to the taxable heir 24 The CHAIRMAN. I am going to have to conclude this hearing, unless— - Senator LINCOLN. Can I just ask one last question, please? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Lincoln has one question. Senator LINCOLN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. - There are not many times that I wish I was a tax attorney, but with this issue, I do. Fortunately I am surrounded by some very, very thoughtful tax attorneys, and grateful for their counsel. But you are right, they are very smart people and they do figure out an awful lot on that chessboard in terms of ways to deal with it. The last thing I would just like to ask is, you all talked consist- ently about deferral in terms of the payment. One of the issues we deal with—I mean, family businesses can defer, I think, already in many instances. But the way we work around here are in 10-year budgets, so we have to understand what something is going to cost. The repeal of the estate tax is very costly, in the sense that it is a lost revenue to the Treasury. If this inheritance tax continues to be deferred, does this proposal or idea that you are advocating not score as costly as repeal if all we are doing is deferring that tax? Prof. BATCHELDER. Well, again, the deferral option that I was de- scribing would only apply if you do not have the liquid assets to pay the tax. So as I mentioned, 97 percent, at least, of estates do. Presumably about that many would under an inheritance tax. Senator LINCOLN. Of course, the nitty-gritty detail there is what you are describing as liquid. I mean, you can always sell land. It becomes liquid if it has to. Prof. BATCHELDER. Right. Right. Senator LINCOLN. Yes. So I know that certainly the chairman has been an incredible tutor in terms of figuring out, when there is a cost with something, it has to be dealt with. Obviously, the cost of full repeal is tremendous. We realize that that is problematic. But if we are continually deferring the inheritance tax, then I think it probably scores enormously costly as well and is something we have to deal with in terms of figuring out how we change things and make them better. So, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I do hope that we can come to a resolution, because the unknown has become enormously frightening to many of my small businesses, farmers, and ranchers. I know if we all put our heads together we can come up with some- thing that gives them more certainty in terms of what they can ex- pect, and certainly greater simplification. So I appreciate the chair- man's leadership. º Thank you all. - - - The CHAIRMAN. I thank you all. This has been a very provocative hearing. It is kind of mind-bending, in some respects. Thank you very much. The hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the hearing was concluded.] A P P E N D IX ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD REFORM OPTIONS FOR THE ESTATE TAXSYSTEM: TARGETING UNEARNED INCOME Lily L. Batchelder' Associate Professor of Law & Public Policy, NYU School of Law Testimony Before the United States Senate Committee on Finance March 12, 2008 Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Grassley, and Members of the Committee. My name is Lily Batchelder and I am an associate professor at NYU School of Law. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on alternatives to the current federal estate tax system. My testimony makes three main points: First, inheritances tend to exacerbate existing economic disparities and may be the most important barrier to intergenerational economic mobility. These tendencies are most pronounced at the top of the income distribution. Inheritances are a significant component of household income. They are also the source of about 40 percent of all household wealth. While inherited income is distributed fairly evenly across most of the population, it rises sharply at the very top. Among households receiving a bequest in a given year, the average inheritance of those in the top 1 percent of the inheritance distribution is 34 times larger than the average inherited income of everyone else. Second, the estate tax system is the most important mechanism by which the current fiscal system mitigates the effect of inheritances on economic disparities and intergenerational mobility. The burden of the estate and gift taxes falls largely on heirs, not donors. On average, it also rises rapidly with the amount the heir inherits and his economic income.” Nevertheless, the relationship between the heir’s financial circumstances and his or her estate tax burden is relatively imprecise. Some individuals who receive extraordinarily large inheritances bear little or no tax burden, while a small number who inherit relatively small amounts bear substantial tax burdens. Finally, the scheduled repeal of the estate tax in 2010 and reinstatement at higher levels in 2011 create an opportunity to better focus the estate tax 'The views expressed in this testimony are those of the author alone and do not necessarily represent those of NYU School of Law. Portions of this testimony draw upon Lily L. Batchelder, Taxing Privilege More Effectively: Replacing the Estate Tax with an Inheritance Tax, in THE PATH TO PROSPERITY: HAMILTON PROJECT IDEAS ON INCOME SECURITY, EDUCATION AND TAXES (Jason Furman and Jason Bordoff, eds.) (Brookings Institution Press, forthcoming), Lily L. Batchelder and Surachai Khitatrakun, Dead or Alive: An Investigation of the Incidence of Estate Taxes versus Inheritance Taxes (work-in-progress), and Lily L. Batchelder, Taxing Privilege More Effectively: Replacing the Estate Tax with an Inheritance Tax, BROOKINGS INST. HAMILTON PROJECT DISCUSSION PAPER 2007-07 (June, 2007). My co-author also should not be held responsible for the views expressed in this testimony. * This is the case regardless of whether economic income is defined as income from work and saving plus the amount inherited, one-fifth of the amount inherited, or the annuitized value of the amount inherited. (25) 26 system on unearned income that inheritances represent. We should use that opportunity to reform, not repeal, the estate tax system so that we continue to tax inherited income, but in a more equitable manner. I will discuss two potential reform options. o The first would replace the estate tax system with a comprehensive inheritance tax, under which an individual inheriting an extraordinary amount over his lifetime would pay income tax and a flat 15 percent tax on a portion of his inheritance. Relative to the 2009 law, this reform could be implemented on a revenue-neutral basis if approximately the first $2 million in lifetime inheritances were tax- exempt. In effect, extraordinary amounts of inherited income would be taxed at about the same rate that families pay on earned income under the income and payroll taxes. This reform would substantially alter tax burdens, and improve the fairness of the current system by more accurately targeting the unfair advantages that exceptionally large inheritances create. o If this reform is considered too ambitious, a second alternative would be to retain and improve the estate tax system by better focusing it on the amount transferred as a proxy for the amount inherited. Specifically, I will discuss a package of simplification reforms that would limit the extent to which the tax burden on heirs depends on their access to sophisticated tax advice. I. Background on Wealth Transfers Gifts and bequests affect economic opportunities and outcomes in important ways. They tend to magnify income and wealth disparities. They also create barriers to intergenerational economic mobility. In 2009, annual bequest flows in the U.S. will total about $400 billion, excluding transfers to spouses and charitable organizations.” Bequests will represent about 4 percent of all household income and, among households receiving a bequest that year, about half of their receipts from labor, saving and bequests. In addition, gifts and bequests (which I will refer to as inheritances or wealth transfers) are a tremendously important determinant *Unless otherwise noted, all estimates in this testimony are based on 2009 law and data, and are derived from Batchelder and Khitatrakun, supra note 1, or Batchelder (2008), supra note 1. These estimates are very rough because of data limitations that require multiple levels of imputation and because they rely in part on data from 1992. Including taxable gifts made by the donor during life would increase the $400 billion figure by an unclear amount. Taxable gifts exclude gifts to spouses and charities, support expenses for minor children, payments for education or health care, and, currently, the first $12,000 in otherwise taxable gifts to a given beneficiary each year ($24,000 per couple). Taxable gifts comprise about 15 percent of the lifetime wealth transfers of donors taxed under the estate tax system. However, the likelihood that a donor will make a taxable gift rises dramatically if the donor is exceptionally wealthy. David Joulfaian & Kathleen McGarry Estate and Gift Tax Incentives and Inter Vivos Giving, 57 NAT’LTAXJ. 429, 439thl.5 (June, 2004). 27 of household wealth. According to the best estimates, between 35 and 45 percent of all household wealth is inherited.” Inheritances are distributed fairly evenly across most of the income distribution, but rise sharply at the very top. As illustrated in Figure 1, tax units in roughly the top 1 percent of the earned income distribution (earning more than $500,000) receive about four times as much income from bequests as other households do on average. Moreover, some individuals—whether highly-compensated workers or not—inherit extraordinarily large amounts. For example, Figure 2 shows that among tax units receiving a bequest in a given year, the average inherited income of those in the top 1 percent of the inheritance distribution is 34 times larger than the averaged inherited income of everyone else. Inheritances thus tend to magnify economic inequality. - Figure 1: Estimated Average Annual Income from Bequests by Earned Income of All Tax Units in 2009 $40,000 $35,000 i * $30,000 $ 2 5, {} 0. {} $20,000 $15,000 $10,000 $5,000 $0 $0- $10- $20- $30- $40- $50- $75- $400– $200- $0.5- $1- $5M+ 4OK 20K 3OK 40K 50K 75K 100K 200K 500K 1 M 5M Earned income In addition, inheritances are perhaps the most important barrier to intergenerational economic mobility, or the ability of a child to achieve a different standard of living than that of his parents. The income that a child earns over his lifetime continues to be heavily influenced by the income of his parents, and this correlation is even higher at the ends of the income distribution.” For example, on average, children * James B Davies & Anthony F. Shorrocks, The Distribution of Wealth, in HANDBOOK OF INCOME DISTRIBUTION (Anthony B. Atkinson and Francois Bourguignon, eds.) (2001); Wojciech Kopczuk & Joseph P. Lupton, To Leave or Not to Leave: The Distribution of Bequest Motives, 74 REV. ECON. 207, note 2 (2007). * Thomas Piketty, Theories of Persistent Inequality and Intergenerational Mobility, in HANDBOOK OF INCOME DISTRIBUTION $$ 2.1, 3 (A. Atkinson and F. Bourguignon, eds., 1998). For example, half of sons of fathers in the bottom income decile have earnings below the 30th percentile, while half of sons of fathers in the top decile have earnings above the 80" percentile. Bhashkar Mazumder, The Apple Falls Even Closer to the Tree than We Thought: New and Revised Estimates of the Intergenerational Inheritance of Earnings, in UNEQUAL CHANCES: FAMILY BACKGROUND AND ECONOMIC SUCCESS 80 (Samuel Bowles et al, eds., 2005). - - 28 born to the top decile of the income distribution are 53 times more likely to end up in the top decile than children born to the bottom." Figure 2: Average Annual Income from Bequests by Inheritance Size among Tax Units Receiving a Bequest in 2009 $2,500,000 $2,200,938 $2,000,000 $1,500,000 $1,000,000 $500,000 $65,703 Bottom 99% Top 1% inheritance Size of Heir There are many sources of these barriers to economic mobility. Most are factors Society would find difficult to mitigate. For example, existing evidence suggests that about 18 percent of the intergenerational correlation of income is explained by the correlation between parent and child IQ, personality and schooling." However, inheritances can be adjusted in a relatively straightforward manner through fiscal policy. Moreover, disparities in inheritances appear to be the most significant barrier to mobility—accounting for about 30 percent of the correlation between parent and child economic outcomes. II. Magnitude and Distribution of Estate Tax Burdens Currently the estate tax system adjusts the amount individuals inherit through three interconnected taxes: the estate tax, the gift tax, and the generation-skipping transfer (GST) tax. This estate tax system is effective at narrowing the distribution of inheritances by imposing higher tax burdens on those who inherit more over their lifetime. But it does so in a relatively rough manner, * Tom Hertz, Rags, Riches and Race: The Intergenerational Economic Mobility of Black and White Families in the United States, in UNEQUAL CHANCES: FAMILY BACKGROUND AND ECONOMICSUCCESS 165, 184 (Samuel Bowles et al, eds., 2005). ' Samuel Bowles, et al, Introduction 1, 18-19, in UNEQUAL CHANCES: FAMILY BACKGROUND AND ECONOMICSUCCESS 1, 20 (Samuel Bowles et al, eds., 2005). *Id; Piketty, supra note 5; Mazumder, supra note 5 at 94. 29 Background on the Estate Tax System In 2008, the estate tax system operates as follows. An individual can transfer $2 million in gifts and bequests ($4 million in the case of a couple) tax-free. Any portion of a bequest above this threshold is taxed at a 45 percent rate under the estate tax. In order to prevent donors from avoiding the estate tax by making transfers during their life, the estate tax is coupled with a gift tax. Under the gift tax, gifts transferred prior to death that exceed $1 million over the donor’s lifetime ($2 million in the case of a couple) are taxed at a 41 to 45 percent rate. A third tax, the GST tax, prevents donors from achieving lower tax rates by transferring wealth directly to their grandchildren instead of through their children. - In addition to the lifetime exemptions of the estate tax system, a number of other wealth transfers are tax-free. Each year a donor can completely disregard $12,000 of gifts to each of his or her beneficiaries ($24,000 in the case of a couple). All transfers to spouses and charities are disregarded. And all payments for education and health care are also tax-exempt. The estate tax system only applies to the amount of gifts and bequests that a donor transfers. There is no separate tax on the amount of gifts and bequests that an heir receives. Importantly, under the income tax, gifts and bequests are not considered income of the heir, and are thus tax-free. Figure 3: Estate and Gift Taxes as a Share of Federal Revenues, 1946-2007” 3.0% 2.5% 2.0% 1.5% 1.0% 0.5% 0.0% (C) (...) ~r Ç Çºf © go