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Lately Published, in Two Volumes, demy 8vo, 30s. bound.
CONVERSATION S
WITH M. THIERS, M. GUIZOT,
AND OTHER
DISTINGUISHED PERSONS, DURING THE SECOND EMPIRE.
BY THE LATE NASSAU W. SENIOR.
EDITED BY HIS DAUGHTER, M. C. M. SIMPSON.
Among other persons whose conversations are recorded in these volumes are King
Leopold; the Duc de Broglie; Lord Cowley; Counts Arrivabene, Corcelle, Daru,
Flahault, Kergolay, Montalembert; Generals Lamoriciere and Chrzanowski; Sir
Henry Ellis; Messieurs Ampere, Beaumont, Blanchard, Bouffet, Auguste Chevalier,
Victor Cousin, De Witt, Duchatel, Ducpetiaux, Dumon, Dussard, Duvergier de
Hauranne, Ldon Faucher, Frere-Orban, Grimblot, Guizot, Lafitte, Labaume, Lamartine, Lanjuinais, Mallac, Manin, M6rimee, Mignet, Jules Mohl, Montanelli, OdillonBarrot, Quetelet, Remusat, Rogier, Rivet, Rossini, Horace Say, Thiers, Trouv6 -Chauvel, Villemain, Wolowski; Mesdames Circourt, Cornu, Ristori, &c.
'This new series of Mr. Senior's "Conversations " has been for some years past known in
manuscript to his more intimate friends, and it has always been felt that no former series
would prove more valuable or important. Mr. Senior had a social position which gave
him admission into the best literary and political circles of Paris. He was a cultivated
and sensible man, who knew how to take full advantage of such an opening. And above
all, he had by long practice so trained his memory as to enable it to recall all the substance, and often the words, of the long conversations which he was always holding.
These conversations he wrote down with a surprising accuracy, and then handed the
manuscript to his friends, that they might correct or modify his report of what they had
said. This book thus contains the opinions of eminent men given in the freedom of
conversation, and afterwards carefully revised. Of their value there cannot be a question.
The book is one of permanent historical interest. There is scarcely a page without some
memorable statement by some memorable man. Politics, and society, and literaturethe three great interests that make up life —are all discussed in turn, and there is no
discussion which is unproductive of weighty thought or striking fact.'-Athenceum.
' The present selection of Mr. Senior's Journals, edited with remarkable skill and judg.
ment by Mrs. Simpson, is extraordinarily full and interesting. Although the unreserved
and original communications of Thiers are especially fascinating, the book would be abundantly interesting if it consisted only of the reports of conversations with Guizot, Montalembert, Cousin, Lamartine, and other persons of celebrity and eminence.'-Saturday
Review.
' These conversations extend from the year 1852 to 1860, and will be found to refer to
some of the most interesting public events of our time-the Revolution of 1848, the
Crimean War, the French Alliance, the attempt on the life of Louis Napoleon, the Indian
Mutiny, and the Italian campaign of 1859. Besides these great public occurrences of
European celebrity, we have many very curious and piquant anecdotes of a private
character, and expressions of opinion on men and things by persons of eminence. All that
is said in these volumes of France, England, and Russia, is as interesting now as when
it was first uttered.'-Standard.
' The two new volumes of the late Mr. Nassau Senior's most interesting conversations
give us the ideas of some eminent foreign statesmen on the Eastern Question. They
embrace the six eventful years from 1852 to 1858, during which Mr. Senior paid prolonged
visits to Paris, and conversed on the most confidential terms with some of the shrewdest
men of the time. They set forth the opinions of those who had the best means of in.
forming themselves on Russian objects and English interests. They abound, besides,
in most interesting details as to the personal character of the Emperor Nicholas and his
successor; as to the relations of Russia and Austria; as to the social condition and
resources of the two empires; as to the considerations that govern their policy, and their
respective capabilities as fighting powers.'-Blackwood's Magazine.


HURST & BLACKETT, PUBLISHERS,
13 GREAT MARLBOROUGH STREET.




CONVERSATION S.
VOL. I.








CONVERSATIONS
WITH
DISTINGUISHED PERSONS


DURING THE SECOND EMPIRE
FROM 1860 TO 1863.
BY THE LATE
NASSAU WILLIAM SENIOR
MASTER IN CHANCEPY, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL ECONOMY,
MEMBRE CORRESPONDANT DE L'INSTITUT DE FRANCE, ETC.
AUTHOR OF
' CONVERSATIONS WITH M. THIERS, M. GUIZOT, ETC.
' A TREATISE ON POLITICAL ECONOMY,' ' BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCHES,'  ESSAYS ON FICTION,'
' HISTORICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL ESSAYS,'
' JOURNALS KEPT IN TURKEY AND GREECE,' JOURNALS KEPT IN IRELAND,'
' JOURNALS KEPT IN FRANCE AND ITALY,'
'CORRESPONDENCE AND CONVERSATIONS WITH ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE,' ETC.
EDITED BY HIS DAUGHTER
M. C. M. SIMPSON.
IN TWO VOLUMES.
VOL. I.
LONDON:
HURST AND BLACKETT, PUBLISHERS,
13 GREAT MARLBOROUGH STREET.
1880.
All Rights reserved.




LONDON
PRINTED BY JOHN STRANGEWAYS AND SONS,
Tower Street, Upper St. Martin's Lane.




-).. PREFACE.
Af THE great interest excited by the two volumes of
0 ~ Mr. Senior's Journals, published in 1878, has induced me to accede to the demand for more.
The present series will be found no less instructive and entertaining than the last.
In some cases, where the speakers have not yet
retired from public life, I have been forced to give
initials instead of their full names; but it is sad
to observe how seldom this has been necessary.
\   Two of Mr. Senior's intimate friends have died
I- whilst this book has been    going   through the
l' press.
It will be a matter of general regret that the
Conversations in 1863 form the last of Mr. Senior's
j
Journals. The illness which was to take him from
us began in a general feeling of lassitude towards
uL.  the end of that summer, and early in the followID   ing June he passed away.
There are still in MS. his Egyptian and Algerian journals, and many portions of his Continental journals.   Some of the conversations that
have already appeared lose much of their value from
D the necessity of suppressing the names of the distin



iv


PREFACE.


guished men who took part in them. For instance,
in the 'Journals in France and Italy,' published in
1871, Thiers and Guizot were indicated only by the
initials H. and Z.
The interest in these Conversations, however,
continues to increase so sensibly, that I hope
some day to publish a connected series of the
Journals, containing much that the world has not
yet seen.
It is impossible to help lamenting that Mr.
Senior did not live to arrange and to annotate the
Journals himself, and that there is, comparatively
speaking, so little of his own political opinions in
these volumes.  The attentive reader will, however,
find that there is more of Mr. Senior's own mind
brought into play than would appear from a cursory glance, and he will admire the skill with
which the information and peculiarities of the different speakers are brought out, and the sense of
humour with which my father obliged them sometimes to express inconsistent and extreme opinions
of which he wished to expose the fallacy.
He never cared to shine himself. He seems to
have considered that, as Bacon says, ' The Honourablest part of Talke is to give the Occasion, and
again to moderate, and to passe to somewhat else,
for then a Man leads the Dance.'
M. C. M. SIMPSON.
KENSINGTON, January, 1880.




CONTENTS
OF
THE FIRST VOLUME.
1860.
September 6th.                                       PAGE
Caen and Bayeux...                               2
Chateau de Canisy..                               3
Story of Mademoiselle de Faudois.....   5
September 7th.
St. L6...   5
Story of Thomas-a-Becket...                         6
Signatures of Norman Kings..                          6
Bishop of Worcester's ring..                6
CONVERSATION WITH M. DU Boso.
Feeling and condition of the clergy.                 7
CONVERSATION WITH KERGORLAY.
Louis Napoleon has offended the clergy...   7
They prefer him to the Orleanists, or the Republic, but
not to the Legitimists.....   8
Their influence considerable......   8
Bishop's candidate elected......   9
Priesthood supplied from the lower classes...   9
The unpopularity of the ultra-religious party overthrew
the Restoration in 1830.                         10




vi


CONTENTS.


The anti-Catholic character of Louis Philippe's reign
caused the Revolution of 1848 
The Church a dangerous friend.
Death of King J6rome....
Madame Mohl on Madame Recamier..
Chateaubriand in public and in private....
Effect of written speeches..
Blunders of public men in 1848.
Sauzet, Mo16, and Lamartine....


PAGE
10
10
11
12
12
13
13
14


September 8th.
CONVERSATION WITH KERGORLAY.
Montemolin and Louis Napoleon
Sovereigns should sometimes be rash
Armaments cannot long be only defensive
Coalition against France
England will not attack her
Influence of England 
The Emperor knows that war would be ui
He believes in free trade. 15. 15. 15. 16.16. 16
Dular..16.       17.  17


lpo]


The Imperial Haras


September 9th.
CONVERSATION WITH KERGORLAY.
The Fosses a waste of land 
Subdivision of land 
Difficulties in selling land 
Coutances...
Madame de Kergorlay on Imperial visits
September 10th.
Chateau Beaux Foss6s.
CONVERSATION WITH CORCELLE.
Guizot and Thiers expect peace
Louis Napoleon's views are those of the masses. 19. 19. 19. 19. 20


21. 22. 23




CONTENTS.                       Vii
PAGE
Garibaldi will sacrifice everything....       23
He is unscrupulous as to means....       23
Louis Napoleon is forced to be aggressive...25
Limits to England's neutrality....       25
Italy is held together by war..... 25
Annexation of Savoy to France....       26
Louis Napoleon's designs on Catalonia...       27
England would protect Portugal..            27
A Revolution would follow defeat in France.. 27
France is harmless only if constitutional...27
September l1th.
Worthlessness of the Papal army....      28
Cardinals as Ministers.....       28
Appointment of Lamoriciere by the Pope... 28
Disapproval of the Imperial Government... 29
The Emperor ratifies the appointment...       30
Perfect confidence between Lamoriciere and Pius IX.. 30
Forces under Lamoricibre's command...       31
Cardinal Antonelli......       31
Evils of an ecclesiastical government...       32
Its possible improvement...... 33
Oak of St. Louis.......       33
Relations between France and Rome in 1849.. 33
Romans wished to be subject to the King of Italy..34
Louis Napoleon's object was the 'Sacre'... 34
Refusal of Pius IX........ 34
Emperor's proposal to the Pope in 1860...       35
He likes indirect paths.....       36
The Tuscan Revolution.....       37
September 12th.
CONVERSATION WITH CORCELLE.


Piedmontese demands on Rome. 37




viii
* * 
V111


CONTENTS.


PAGE
A Pope should be a temporal sovereign....37
Otherwise the Church loses her independence...38
France must be Catholic or Infidel.....38
The Pope has great power over the Clergy...39
September 13th.
Chartres.....39
September 15th.
CONVERSATION WITH A. B. C.
Louis Napoleon is acting a comedy....40
Cavour and Garibaldi act by his permission...40
He wishes for the Rhine..... 41
He has been coquetting for the Ebro....41
He must take Belgium.......41
The Rhine his great object...... 41
His spring is always sideways.....42
He intends Sardinia to have Rome....42
He will then ask for the Rhine..... 42
' Faites et faites vite.......43
His reasons for hating the Pope.....43
He is a compound of Augustus and Nero...43
He is jealous of all eminence.                        44
Chances of peace desperate...... 44
Calamities in prospect.                               45
Evils of a dependent Church.                          45
Loss of the Pope's temporal power.....45
If he retain his spiritual power his influence will increase  45
Advantages of the Pope's temporal power.. 46
Influence of the Pope in Ireland.....46
His sympathy with Catholic sovereigns....46
It acts as a restraining power..... 46
The Papal Government an evil in Rome...47
September 16th.
Les Bruyeres...                               47




CONTENTS.


ix


Chateau La Celle....
Manners of nouveaux riches.
CONVERSATION WITH TCHIHATCHEF AND CIRCOURT.
Russia does not wish for war..
She has quarrelled with everybody.
So has Louis Napoleon...
Queen Isabella has insulted him 
Stenographer at the Baden Conference
Cavour fears another war with Austria
September 17th.
Sologne and Berri..
Chateau and Park of H6ry.
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER DE HAURANNE.
A. B. C.'s expectations are warlike.
Louis Napoleon lives au jour le jour
War is favourable to his throne 
But he dreads hostile coalitions 
Warlike preparations are less expensive than war


PAGE. 47. 48. 48
49
49
49
49
50.51. 52


55
55. 55
56. 56


September 18th.
CONVERSATION WITH ODILLON BARROT.
His share in the Revolution of 1830
Escorts Charles X. to Cherbourg
His unpopularity.
Necessity for an escort 
Marshal Maison's obligations to
Charles X.
Demoralisation of Polignac
His unpopularity.


Louis XVIII.


and


56
57
57
58
58
58
58


September 19th.
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER AND DUVERGIER.
The 29th January, 1849...
Was it an attempted insurrection or a coup d'etat?. 59. 59




X                        CONTENTS.
PAGE
The President wanted it to be both...       60
He allowed the Garde Mobile to enter the court.      60
Changarnier assembles the troops...61
President produces a paper....61
He pockets his paper.....62
Revolutionary contents of that paper...       62
Importunities of Persigny...... 63
The President's ride.....63
Reception by the mob.....64
He is silent and much affected...64
Changarnier might have made him Emperor..       64
The Assembly was unpopular in 1849...       64
In 1850 Louis Napoleon was unpopular....65
Changarnier could have imprisoned him...       65
A year later he had become popular...       66
Excellent behaviour of Bourgeoisie in 1851..       66
It was deserted by the lower classes....67
Heroism of Baudin......       67
Houses rifled by shot.....67
Cavaignac ought to have been President..       67
Louis Napoleon elected to destroy the Republic.      67
Why Thiers did not vote for Cavaignac...       68
Mol6 and Thiers as candidates....       68
Battle of Solferino..... 69
Metternich's dying advice....69
Emperor's letter to Persigny a penitential sheet.    69
September 20th.
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER.
Louis Philippe and Guizot differ as to 1848..      70
Guizot insisted on two things....70
Barrot and Bugeaud incompatible...70
Bugeaud's letter......71
Too late for a reforming ministry...71
Proposed cabinet of Thiers....71
Duvergier's account of February, 1848...       72




CONTENTS.                        xi
PAGE
Thiers asks for a dissolution......73
The emevte increasing and approaching...       73
The Ministers issue a manifesto.....74
Barrot goes out to the people.....74
Cremieux has an interview with the King..       74
Barrot named President of the Council...       75
Reception of the King by the National Guard.. 75
King consents to abdicate......76
King refused reform in January, 1848...       76
CONVERSATION WITH THE MARQUIS DE VOGUE.
The Metayer system.......77
Agriculture kept down by the price of iron...78
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER.
Character of Talleyrand.. 79
His influence in England....            79
September 21st.
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER AND DUVERGIER.
News of Lamoriciere's defeat......80
He allowed his troops to be scattered...       80
He must have had insurmountable obstacles..       81
The French press will attack him....       81
Fanti and Cialdini the Emperor's instruments          81
The cardinals oppose Lamoriciere....       82
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER AND BARROT.
Louis Napoleon wants presence of mind....83
His conduct at Boulogne......83
He wounds a cook......       83
The Maire takes charge of his money....84
The cigars he smoked at Magenta.....84
War is not his metier.......84
He listens to nobody....... 85
His views on pauperism...... 85




xii


CONTENTS.


PAGE
His schemes are not deep-laid.....86
He does not see,-he feels.....86
Prince Napoleon and the Republicans....87
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER.
The Assembly's means of defence in 1848...87
Troops will not fire on each other.....88
Proceedings of St. Arnaud, Magnan, and Morny..88
The law is not passed.......88
Folly of the 'Montagne'......89
September 22nd.
CONVERSATION WITH BARROT AND DUVERGIER.
Mehemet Ali....... 89
Government of Said Pasha...... 90
List made out in Paris in 1852.                     90
This tyranny falls on the lower classes and the obscure. 91
The Emperor popular among the peasantry...91
September 23rd.
Farms and farmers in the Berri.....91
Flood of 1851......91
The Government satisfied with inspecting its effects. 91
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER.
Chances in favour of peace......93
Emperor's schemes of aggrandisement adjourned..93
Effect of the new weapons......93
To increase cavalry charges.....94
To favour the attack in a siege.....94
Earth fortifications better than stone.... 94
CONVERSATION WITH CHAMBOL.
Ministers of the Provisional Government...95
Qualification for a Bishopric......95
The Siecle defended Louis Napoleon....95
His gratitude.......       95




CONTENTS.
CONVERSATION WITH BARROT.
His share in the events of February, 1848
He and Thiers wished to go to the barricades.
Vivid imagination of Thiers.
Thiers wants rapid decision.
Barrot at the barricades.
They are pulled down..
VFive Barrot!' ' Vive la refornme/'
He goes home exhausted 
He is summoned to the ' Ministere'
He endeavours to reach the Tuileries
Hears of the King's abdication 
Joins the Duchess of Orleans at the Chambers
Lamartine opposes the Regency 
The mob fills the Chambers..
The Duchess is forced to leave 
The Revolution was caused by the enemies of reform
Blindness of Louis Philippe..
September 24th.
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER.
Character and position of Changarnier 
No command offered to him in the Crimea
He prevented a revolution in April, 1848


xiii
PAGE


96.96
96
97.97
98.98
99.99
99.99
100
100
101
101
102
102
103
103
104
105
105


Cathedrals of Bourges and Chartres
House of Jacques Cceur
September 25th.
CONVERSATION WITH FINOLON.
Defeat of Lamoriciere.
Piedmontese army
Tuscan troops 
Austrian troops.. 106. 106. 107. 107


CONVERSATION WITH MIRIMIE.
Result of the war in Italy.108




xiv


CONTENTS.


France does not care for Italy
Garibaldi Louis Napoleon's greatest enemy
Piedmontese invasions of Roman States
Emperor desillusionne as to war
Probable war on the Rhine.
Germany hopes for Alsace
Prussia will assist Austria
France cares little about Austria or Italy


PAGE
109.109.109.110
110.110.  111
111


September 26th.
CONVERSATION WITH MADAME A. B. C.
Difference between French and English children
DiNNER AT MARSHAL RANDON'S.
CONVERSATION WITH RANDON AND FEN2LON.
Strength of Verona..
Loss of the Russians in the Crimea
Turkish, Piedmontese, French, and English losses.
Loss in the Italian campaign 
Louis Napoleon's horror of a battle
A field of battle not so terrible....
The ambulances much more painful
Gallophobia in Europe...
France desires no more war...
She owes nothing to Piedmont.
Permission granted to Lamoricibre


112
113
113
113
113
114
114
115
115
115.116
117


September 27th.
CONVERSATION WITH COUSIN.
Everything gives him pain
Crimes of England
Errors of Rome.
Religion in the South.
Value of the Concordat
Louis Napoleon an atheistic Jacobin
He wishes to destroy the Papacy 
Savoy wished to be French..118
118.118
119.119
120.120
120




CONTENTS.                      XV
PAGE
September 28th.
DINNER AT CELBTEAU D'ISSY.
CONVERSATION WITH AMP:RE.
Discontent of French garrison in Rome... 122
Louis Napoleon hates Garibaldi and Mazzini..122
Parts played by Louis Napoleon... 122
He is courting the Revolutionists... 122
Like theta, he hates liberty...       122
September 29th.
CONVERSATION WITH MADAME MOHL.
The Ober Ammergau play...       123
Condition of Hungary.......124
Still in a state of feudalism.....125
Neglected condition of Koloska.....125
Charming manners and silly conversation...125
Curious matrimonial relations.....126
Patriotism consists in wearing the national dress.. 126
Immorality of the priests...... 127
Madame R6camier.......128
Parting between Schlegel and Madame de Stael..128
CONVERSATION WITH LOMIENIE.
Stories of the Revolution of 1848.....129
'Au pas ordinaire, Marche'.....129
The Garfon de Cafe..... 129
A dangerous sword.......130
Exposition of' cadavres'......131
Vive la Republique.......131
No government wanted......131
CONVERSATION WITH A. B. C.
Emperor resembles a bad billiard-player...132
What his Italian policy ought to be....133
Objections to it........133
Danger of the Italian daggers.....134




Xvi                    CONTENTS.
He will help Piedmont.
And set a Murat on the throne of the Two Sicilies
His words are like witches' prayers
His probable conduct in 1861 
1861.
French travellers' opinion of England


PAGE. 134. 135. 135. 135


139


March 28th.
CONVERSATION WITH CORNELLIS DE WITT.
Paris is enjoying Parliamentary life
It interests only the higher classes
Prince Napoleon's speech
Keller's speech.
France opposed to Italian unity
Emperor fears assassination 
Behaviour after the Attentat.
Bonapartes popular at Naples
France hates Piedmont
CONVERSATION WITH GUIZOT.
Austin's Jurisprudence
Separation of the United States
Favourable to England, not to France
England is Italian.
Guizot does not expect Italian unity
Queen Isabella and Queen Victoria.  140. 140.140
140. 141. 141
141. 142. 142.144. 145. 146. 146
146
147


CONVERSATION WITH M. AND MADAME DE CIRCOURT.
Beaumont's Memoir of Tocqueville.
Volunteer force in England..
Danger of a French invasion
Depends on the Emperor.
England is arming against him. 147
148
148
149
149




Cd
CrCI
CD


-.
CfOI




CTCI
CD.O RE




CONTENTS.                      xix
PAGE
England sympathises with Italy....       150
Louis Napoleon's designs on Naples....150
Corcelle's influence over the Pope...      151
March 29th.
CONVERSATION WITH LAMARTINE AND PELLETAN.
M. Pelletan's audience..... 152
Lamartine in 1848.....               153
La Foule the only audience worth addressing.. 153
Dualism in a speaker's mind....      154
Y(,      Debate on the address......155
Keller and Jules Favre......156
Freedom of debate will not last....      156
The next Assembly more hostile....      157
France is not irreligious......157
Another revolution probable.....158
United Italy unfavourable to France...    159


March 30th.
Model of a trireme
CONVERSATION WITH DUVERGIER AND CHANGARNIER.
Debate unfavourable to Louis Napoleon
Expenses of the Government 
Recruits in the French army.
France guerriere not militaire..
Badness of Lamoricibre's army 
Papal power popular in the Roman States
Emperor wants Naples for a Bonaparte
England does not want Sicily.
CONVERSATION WITH CASTEL-CICALA.
Brigandism in Sicily......
The English at the bottom of Garibaldi's invasion 
Sicily hates Naples..


159


160
161
161
162
162
162
163
164
165
165
166


VOL. I.


b




XX


CONTENTS.


PAGE
March 31st.
CONVERSATION WITH LASTEYRIE.
The Pope listens to nobody..                    167
Louis Napoleon delighted with Italian affairs      168
The Affaire Mirs....                168
Trial of Mires...                                170
April 1st.
CONVERSATION WITH A. B. C.
Pope can do nothing....                172
He must be a subject out of Rome.. 172
Probability of a schism...           172
Union of Church and State necessary                173
Effect of the debate mischievous...           173
Popularity of a war for the Rhine.               174
Dangers of every course..                    174
Restoration of a Murat at Naples..           175
Nations now mere voluntary partnerships.      176
Louis Napoleon will say he is not responsible      176
The peace of Villa Franca the best arrangement     176
He encouraged Piedmont.                         177
Italy a formidable rival..... 177
England would not allow him to take the Rhine or
Belgium.                                   178
No belief in the Napoleonic dynasty.      178
April 2nd.
CONVERSATION WITH A. B. C.
We should tolerate a Murat in Naples...179
Louis Napoleon's programme...180
It will drive the Carbonari mad.....180
A war for the Rhine successful.                  181
England will be punished.                        181
Wishes to punish Piedmont.                        182




CONTENTS.
April 3rd,
CONVERSATION WITH CHAMBRUN.
Debate mischievous to Louis Napoleon.
Chances of war on the Rhine or Scheldt
War for the Rhine popular 
England would not suffer his success
He will make the attempt
His motives in Italy 
War may destroy,-peace must destroy him
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER.
France furious with Italy and England
Emperor does notwish for another war
The Chamber would refuse the supplies
Another coup d'etat more likely
April 4th.
CONVERSATION WITH CIRCOURT.
Imperial tomb.
Crimes of England 


xxi
PAGE
183
184.  185.185
186.  186.187
187.187.188
188.189.190


CONVERSATION WITH BEAUMONT.
Suppression of Tocqueville's manuscript
His devotion to form.
He would not speak impromptu
Horror of war in the provinces
Unfairness of the conscription
General officers delight in it
Story of a conscript..
The Government is condamne a travaux forces
Strike among the masons.
Wages in France...
Conscripts do not return improved
Quarrel with the Pope not known
Sentiments of a maire...
No Catholicism without Papacy.  190. 190. 190. 191
191. 191..  192
193. 194. 194
194. 195. 195
195




XXii                    CONTENTS.
PAGE
Influence of the priest..                        196
Small effect of schools.                           196
Difficulty of establishing private schools..    196
Peasants do not care for education....197
April 5th.
CONVERSATION WITH BEAUMONT AND GUIZOT.
Morcellement of property......197
Peasant proprietors......      198
Their love for their land.....      198
Elections for the Academy uncontrolled... 199
Cavour alone has a policy......199
Inconsistency of European sovereigns...      200
Education in Normandy....      200
Priests do not interfere.....      200
April 6th.
CONVERSATION WITH ST. HILAIRE.
Perplexities of Louis Napoleon..... 202
He must choose the war party.                    202
If he fails he is ruined......     203
A successful war his only chance.                 204
CONVERSATION WITH CIRCOURT.
There will be war with Austria..... 204
Venetia the pretext.......205
Prussia will absorb Holstein, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg,
Hanover, and Saxony......206
Schleswig and Holstein wish to be German... 206
CONVERSATION WITH MADAME CORNU AND MAURY.
Emperor's Life of Ccesar......207
Catiline one of his favourites.....207
Is absorbed in his work......208
His present to Madame Cornu.....208
His mind wants keeping.....      208




CONTENTS.
Literary relations with Madame Cornu 
Their early intimacy 
His long exclusion from French society
Has made him somewhat of a parvenu
Fondness for titles.
He has learnt nothing in political matters
His opinions those of the French from
1812..
These opinions still those of the multitude
To this he partly owes his success
The Idees Napoleoniennes those of the people
He does not want war..
Is delighted with the effect of the debates
CONVERSATION WITH FOURICHON AND FEN]ELON.
The trireme.
The Duomo of Milan.
Aggressive spirit of Prussia 
No danger from Italy 
Perfection of the Imperial Government
Italian unity will not be permanent
French troops will remain in Rome
English army in the Crimea
Russian officers.


xxiii
PAGE. 209. 209
209. 210. 210. 210




1799 to
~ 


211
211
211
212
212
213


213
213
214
215
215
215
216
216
217


April 8th.
CONVERSATION WITH D. E. F.
Emperor has changed his fulcrum.
He is courting the Revolutionary party
His new supporters more powerful, but more exigeant
They like an aggressive foreign policy
They differ with him as to Italian unity
He wishes for war with England..
Druses and Maronites...
Louis Napoleon will perish in an unsuccessful war
Distinction between Republicans and Revolutionists


217
218
218
218
219
219
219.220
220




xxiv


CONTENTS.


PAGE
April 9th.
CONVERSATION WITH VUITRY.
State of French armaments.....221
Object of maritime preparations.                221
Parisian finances comparatively flourishing..  222
All the new houses are mortgaged...      222
Ruin must follow a depression in building trade.  222
The silk trade suffers from the American war.   223
April 10th.
BREAKFAST AT SENIOR'S.
CONVERSATION WITH CHAMBRUN, CIRCOURT, D. E. F., MADAME
ST. HILAIRE, AND SIMON.
Value of Chambrun's house......223
Hausmann's houses are always being pulled down.. 224
Madame — 's house in the Champs Elysees.      224
Billault's house.....           225
Story of a watchmaker and a marquis..          225
Servility of Judges.....227
The Emperor's debts..                            228
' Gaspillage' in royal households...228
April 11th.
BREAKFAST AT SENIOR'S.
CONVERSATION WITH MADAME CORNU AND CIRCOURT.
The Emperor at Malmaison......229
Sensibility of Louis Napoleon at Ham.           229
What became of his money at Boulogne...230
April 13th.
CONVERSATION WITH ZAMOYSKI.
Vigour of Polish nationality.....231
Answer of the crowd to Gortschakoff...      232
Isolation of Poland.......233
Roguery of Kossuth......234
Offers Hungary to the Sultan....235
The Hungarian movement......235




CONTENTS.                      XXV
PAGE
The Duc d'Aumale's letter..                     236
CONVERSATION WITH LORD COWLEY.
The letter is seized..                        236
Louis Napoleon is tired of war.                236
Invasion of England.....237
French maritime preparation.....237
The Emperor is badly served..237
CONVERSATION WITH J. K.
Louis Napoleon during the Crimean war...238
Proposed that England should command the fleet and
France the army..       238
Drouyn de Lhuys and Louis Napoleon wished for
peace.....239
Vaillant was for the war continuing..240
CONVERSAT[ON WITH LORD CLYDE.
The Zouaves...                            240
General Vinois' valuable assistance..      241
Attack on the Malakoff...           242
April 14th.
Sermon of the Pere Felix...                 243
The classes ouvrieres the masters of France...243
Revolutions made by children...244
The training they receive..                     245
CONVERSATION WITH MIRIM:E.
Three boys defend a barricade in 1848.. 245
Due d'Aumale's pamphlet...    246
How it came to be published....246
Its suppression has increased its influence...246
Speech of Prince Napoleon.                          247
The Senate a moral ice-house...            247
The Pope not popular in France.....248




xxvi


CONTENTS.


PAGE
CONVERSATION WITH PRINCE NAPOLEON.
Coalition between Lord Derby and Lord Palmerston. 248
The Duc d'Aumale's letter...... 249
State of the priesthood..                    250
Grievances of the Irish priests....    250
April 15th.
CONVERSATION WITH LORD CLYDE.
Interview with the Emperor..... 251
The Emperor at Magenta and Solferino..      252
April 16th.
DINNER AT PARIEU'S.
CONVERSATION WITH CHEVALIER AND PARIEU.
Difference between English and French aristocracies.253
In France they are not trained to politics...253
In 1830, 1848, and 1852, they abandoned politics. 254
Difficulties of change in this respect...   254
The French are not constitutional...    254
Treaty of extradition.....255
April 17th.
CONVERSATION WITH REMUSAT.
The Pope and his ministers......257
Monsignor M6rode opposes the French..          258
Roman provinces hate ecclesiastical rule...258
Garibaldi Italy's great danger.....258
French clergy not opposed to the Emperor..     259
Emperor in one of his torpid fits....259
Separation of the United States....259
England will not countenance slavery.            259
Free trade in advice does no good.... 260
April 18th.
CONVERSATION WITH CINTRAT AND A. B. C.
Character of Louis Napoleon..                261




CONTENTS.
His vanity and selfishness.
Due d'Aumale's letter.
Mischievous to the Monarchy
Effect of the discussion on the Empire.
April 19th.
CONVERSATION WITH JULES SIMON.
Massacres in 1851 
Prisoners carried off to execution


xxvii
PAGE. 261
262. 262
262
263.264


CONVERSATION WITH PEYRONNET.
Massacres in 1851


265


CONVERSATION WITH BLOEMARTS.
Massacres in 1851 
Lawsuit with the Marquis 
Justice in France...
Difficulty in finding an advocate 
Story of a watchmaker 
April 21st.
CONVERSATION WITH GUIZOT.
The Syrian business 
Druses and Maronites..
All war is popular in France
Colonies promote peace
Syrian question in 1840 
Ibrahim Pasha should not have been checked
Integrity of Turkey an English traditional folly
April 22nd.
CONVERSATION WITH L. M.
German feeling in Alsace and Lorraine 
They would join Prussia
Germans love despotism 
Their eyes are fixed on foreign politics 


265
266
267
268
268
270
270
270
271.271
271
272
272.272
273.273




XXviii                 CONTENTS.
PAGE
They gravitate towards Prussia.        73
Except Austria and Bavaria.                      274
Catholicism may die out..274
And all Germany be united...       274
It would be a pacific empire                       274
A Gallican Church possible...       274
April 23rd.
BREAKFAST AT SENIOR'S.
CONVERSATION WITH LORD CLYDE, MfRIMIE, CHEVALIER,
KERGORLAY, PARIEU, DROUYN DE LHUYS.
Speeches of Keller and Prince Napoleon..       275
Madame Dudevant ought to be an Academician.. 276
Probabilities of war...276
The great danger from Garibaldi...       276
England should keep up her armaments...277
The Bourse and Stock Exchange the great peace-makers 277
Story of Rothschild...                      277
'Millions of pardons'..                         278
Due d'Aumale's letter.                            278
It has killed the fusion..                       278
Effect of a challenge.                           279
CONVERSATION WITH MONTALEMBERT.
Alliance between the Queen and the Emperor.. 279
Cannot be permanent.                              279
French and English motives too different..    280
Dislike of the Pope the only bond of union..    280
No real alliance till France is constitutional..   280
That it will never be...                        280
Unjust accusation of Louis Philippe...     280
France must be governed through her bad passions. 281
April 24th.
CONVERSATION WITH LORD CLYDE.
Armstrong gun too delicate....281




CONTENTS.
The rifle not much use in battle
Companies and regiments should not be separated
CONVERSATION WITH CHANGARNIER.
Lamartine has not physical courage
Hesitation of Lamartine and Marrast in 1848
Louis Napoleon at Magenta.
Not in real danger.


xxix
PAGE. 282
282
282
283. 283. 284


CONVERSATION WITH THIERS AND AN AMERICAN.
Louis Napoleon is fomenting war 
Due d'Aumale's letter..
Imperial party will soon become revolutionary
Emperor hates all that is established
There is no Young France 
Separation of the United States inopportune.
The North will beat the South
Impossible to allow the South to secede
State of Spanish America a warning
April 25ih.
CONVERSATION WITH TROCHU.
The infantry the best troops in France.
The Zouaves.
The Piedmontese army
The English troops at Inkermann
Russian army want generals
Austrian army ill-commanded
Defective commissariat 
Austrian and French Emperors
Louis Napoleon at Magenta.
Precarious position of Trochu
Battle of Solferino..
Cavalry ill managed..  284
284
284
284.285
285.286
286.286
287
288.288
288
289
289
289
289.290
291
291
291


CONVERSATION WITH FENELON.
Emperor ordered Solferino to be attacked


292




XXX


CONTENTS.


PAGE
He has great military talent..           293
Interest of a field of battle......293
April 26th.
CONVERSATION WITH LORD COWLEY.
Louis Napoleon does not intend war....293
Why he keeps up large armaments....294
His 'mot' on the Duc d'Aumale's letter..294
Lord Raglan after the Alma.....295
Canrobert would not follow it up.....295
April 27th.
BREAKFAST AT SENIOR'S.
CONVERSATION WITH HORE, LYNCH, AND LORD CLYDE.
The Gloire and the Warrior....295
Wooden and iron ships.....298
A sailor not good after thirty-eight...      298
A soldier best at twenty-eight....299
April 28th.
CONVERSATION WITH D. E. F.
The Due d'Aumale's letter...... 299
Too conservative for the ouvriers.....299
Popular in the army...... 299
And the Bourgeoisie......299
Only two important parties.                       300
The Liberals and Revolutionists..... 300
Wishes of the Liberal party.                      300
The Revolutionary party wishes for despotism..301
It hates all superiority...... 301
Louis Napoleon is its chief......302
He had the support of the Conservative party until 1854  302
It failed him, and he had recourse to war... 302
In war no one thinks of domestic policy... 302
The peace of 1856 rendered war again necessary.. 302
The same in 1859...... 302




CONTENTS.                     XXxi
PAGE
Peace again dangerous to him in 1861.               302
He wishes for peace, but may have to choose war..303
A war for the Rhine probable.....303
April 29t,.
CONVERSATION WITH MADAME DE CIRCOURT.
Madame de Lieven....... 304
The queens of the salon not agreeable out of their own
drawing-rooms....... 304


JOURNAL AT OUCHY.
August 29th.
Superior neatness of Protestant countries...307
Extreme heat of the weather..... 309
Visit of Queen Hortense to M. Haldimand..     310
The Vaudois Constitution......311
A ugust 30th.
CONVERSATION WITH HALDIMAND.
Prosperity of the country.                      311
Small families.......312
The aristocracies of Geneva and Lausanne..312
Jealousy of the higher orders...           313
September 1st.
CONVERSATION WITH SIR WILLIAM ERLE.
Wisdom of trial by jury......314
An advocate makes a bad judge.....314
A judge does not sympathise with the lower orders.314
Jurymen often belong to the lower orders..    315
Jury less influenced by prejudice...315
Prejudices of judges......       316
The best jurymen supplied by country towns        317
The worst in the manufacturing districts..    317
Smethurst and Vidil.                             318
Fattening of prisoners at Dartmoor...      319




XXxii                   CONTENTS.
PAGE
The accused generally belong to the criminal class.320
Juries in civil causes..                           320
They are preferable to judges...      320
Lord Eldon's decision on pirating books..321
Strong decisions a great nuisance...321
The Bench less laborious than the Bar.              321
Delights of farming.                               321
September 2nd.
CONVERSATION WITH MAROCHETTI.
French painters.......322
De la Roche and Scheffer..                     322
Delacroix, Ingres, and Meissonnier.. 323
English painters.                                   323
Landseer and Watts.                               323
Callcott, Stanfield, and Martin... 324
September 3rd.
The Duvergiers at Bois Cery....      325
Bois Cery a refuge in case of revolution.326
Chateau de Vernant......326
Chances of the Imperial dynasty..327
Madame de Remusat's Memoirs..327
September 5th.
BREAKFAST AT LA GRANGETTE.
CONVERSATION WITH HALDIMAND.
Economical living at Lausanne...           329
Servants cost much less than in England.330
Absence of ostentation......330
September 6th.
Savoy side of the Lake..... 331
CONVERSATION WITH PALLAVICINI.
Experience of Spielberg.....332




CONTENTS.                   Xxxiii
PAGE
Bad clothing and ventilation.                     332
Companionship in prison...               333
Resource in memory.                               333
Hopes of Italian success far short of the reality..334
Its unity will be permanent.....334
Fairness of the plebiscite.                        334
The Reactionary party.                          335
The two Cavours...                335
Camille preferred Piedmont to Italy...       335
Italians mystified by Louis Napoleon...       336
He is influenced by his fears....336
Miss Curtis compares the prospects of Italy and America  337
September 7th.
CONVERSATION WITH RICORDON.
Systems tried in the Lausanne Penitentiary.         337
Classes working together...... 338
Cellular system.                                   338
Silent system....... 338
Hallucinations.......339
Madness........ 340
Increased bodily exercise and separation of classes. 341
Success of this system.......341
Hotel Beaurivage......343
Eccentricities of Miss Z.......344
American society in Paris... 345
September 9th.
Lyons and Dijon.                                    346








CONVERSATIONS.
1860.
[THE last volumes published of Mr. Senior's Journal
ended with our visit to M. Guizot at Val Richer, in
the month of August.   Our next visit was to the
Count Herve de Kergorlay.
The war in Italy was at this time at its height,
and Garibaldi was in the full tide of victory.
Francis II. fled before him to his army at Gaeta,
and on the 7th September Garibaldi entered Naples.
Pius IX., greatly alarmed by these proceedings, set
Lamoriciere at the head of an army collected from
all countries, ready to fight for the Papacy and to
support Francis II., who threatened an invasion of
his former dominions from Gaeta, while Austria from
Mantua and Verona were preparing to join their
cause.
Cavour hesitated no longer; he determined at
once to take possession of the Papal States in Umbria
and the Marches (already in open revolt), push
forward the army to Naples and Sicily, and wrest
from Garibaldi the leadership of the nation. The
deputations from these countries demanding immediate annexation were favourably listened to, Antonelli
was summoned in the name of Italy to disband his
mercenaries, the Sardinian army crossed the frontier,
VOL. I.                               B




2


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


and the fleet set sail for the Adriatic. The Sardinians
defeated the Papal troops at Castel Fidardo on the
18th of September, besieged and took Ancona on the
29th, and entered the Kingdom of Naples on the 15th
of October, having taken Lamoriciere prisoner and
scattered his army to the winds.
Garibaldi had meanwhile defeated the Neapolitan
troops in the battle of Volturno, and driven them under
the guns of Gaeta. The two victorious armies met at
Capua, and Garibaldi was the first to salute Victor
Emmanuel with the title of King of Italy.-ED.]
Chateau de Canisy, near St. L8, September 6.-We
reached this place this morning, having slept two
nights at Caen and one at Bayeux.
The tapestry of Bayeux and the fine churches at
Caen are too well known to require description, and
so is the still finer Cathedral of Bayeux.  It has
been restored, and the walls and pillars and traceries
of the interior are perhaps more beautiful than they
ever were. All are of the mellow, cream-like colour
which the Caen stone possesses when first extracted.
The painted glass is wanting, so that the windows
are picture-frames without pictures.  The inconsistent Italian cupola which, when I saw the
Cathedral in 1850, disfigured the central tower, has
been removed, and the tower is to be finished in
the Decorated Gothic in which it was begun. The
exterior, too, has been cleared of the buildings which
used to conceal it.
We drove to Arromanches, a village on the seacoast, seven miles from Bayeux, to breakfast with
Dr. de Mussy, who is staying there.




1860.]


CHATEAU DE CANISY.


3


There are good sands, the sea and the air are
very fine, but there is not a tree.
With increasing wealth, the taste for sea-bathing
and marine villas has taken possession of the French.
Trouville, twenty years ago a fishing village, has become a flourishing watering-place; and Arromanches,
in the midst of one of the richest districts in France,
and only seven miles from a railroad, hopes to equal
its fortunes.
Miserable little houses, with spiral staircases and
closets for bed-rooms, let for 1000 francs a-month;
and land, worth 1000 francs an acre three years ago,
now sells for 100 francs the perch, which we made
out to be about 3601. an acre. Dr. de Mussy seemed
to me to be very much inclined to purchase at this
price about an acre and a half, running from the road
to the sea, and to build a villa for his two months'
vacation.
September 6, Canisy.-The most modern part of the
Chateau of Canisy belongs to the beginning of the
sixteenth century; the oldest to the eleventh.  The
east front is about 650 feet long; the south about
300. The dining-room and drawing-room are passage rooms, lighted each way. The south front, as
far as the south-eastern tower, is the modern parr,
over it are the rooms occupied by the family, and, as
at Val Richer, a corridor runs along the first floor to
the north, into which they open.
The south-east tower, about thirty feet in diameter,
is now a bed-room, but is to be the drawing-room,




4


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


and the present drawing-room is to be the library.
Our bed-rooms are on the ground-floor, looking east.
The two eastern gate-towers and the tower beyond
them are covered with ivy, which seems to be the
growth of centuries. This last tower, larger than any
of the others, and machicolated, is now inhabited.
The walls are about six feet thick; the roofs lofty,
and ending in the acute angle usual in the French
medieval chateaux.
The whole is built of the conglomerate of the
country, which, where it is not covered by ivy or
creepers, has assumed a fine yellowish red.
its great size, fine colouring, and grand architecture, make it one of the most imposing buildings
that I know. It is in very bad repair, and hewn
stone and sand are already collecting for its restoration, which is to be begun in the spring, and is to
cost not less than 20,0001,
It will never, however,-at least not for 200 years
after its restoration, —be so striking as it is now:
much of the ivy, and almost all the lichens, must go.
I am glad that I have seen it in its picturesque
decay.
Kergorlay is a Breton name, and the Kergorlay
property was in Brittany. It was confiscated during
the Revolution.
The Canisy estate belonged to a Marquis de
Faudois, who had two daughters.   One married, in
1789, my friend's father; the young people were
absent on a wedding tour on the 14th of July, and
did not return to France until 1802.




1860.]


INCIVICISME IN 1793.


M. de Faudois and his unmarried daughter resided
in the Castle. They were popular, took no part in
politics, and were long unmolested.     Her portrait,
that of a very pretty girl of eighteen, with a bright,
gay expression, is in the drawing-room. It was
taken in 1793, a few months before her death.
In a letter to a young friend, she said: 'Ma
chienne vient de mettre au monde quatre petits
citoyens.' The letter was opened at the Paris post
office. She and her father were accused of' incivicisme,'
arrested in their castle, carried to Paris, and guillotined.
How   the property was saved from     confiscation,
Kergorlay does not know.       An old    servant, the
concierge, resided in it; and when the Comte de
Kergorlay returned to France, he took possession of
it in right of his wife.
The party consists of M.* and Mde. de Kergorlay,
their son, a nice boy of nine years old, Mr. Sheldan,
his tutor, and a nephew, a young man studying his
' roit.'  The hours are the same as those of VYal
Richer.
September 7.-We drove over to         St. L6, the
capital of the department of La Manche.
The Church, in the Early Pointed style, as are
* M. de Kergorlay's family was Legitimist, and he was an
hereditary 'pair de France.' During the Empire he accepted a
place in the Senate, for which he was rather coldly looked on by
the Irreconcilables. He was a kind, and constant, and most
obliging friend. He died about five years ago.-ED.




6


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


almost all that I have seen in Normandy, is remarkable for its great width and its fine towers. Near to
it is a small church dedicated to St. Thomas a Becket,
at his own suggestion. He was passing when it was
nearly completed. The founder asked him to say to
whom it ought to be dedicated.  'To the next saint,'
answered Becket, 'who shall shed his blood for the
Church.' He himself was the next.
An intelligent man, a M. du Bosc, showed us the
archives of the departments. We saw charters signed
by the Conqueror; by his son, Beauclerc; by his
father, Robert le Diable, who calls himself 'Dux
Normanorum;' by Lanfranc, by the contemporary
bishops of Hereford, of Worcester, of York, of
Coutances and of Bayeux, by Bohun, by Mowbray,
by Percie, and by other great Anglo/- Norman
names.
They all sign by a cross.  4 This is a copy of
the Conqueror's cross, which is larger than any of the
others: underneath is written, ' Signum  Gulielmi
Ducis Normanorum et Regis Anglia.'
The charters of a later date have pendent seals,
but are not signed. The seals of the bishops are
often representations of their cathedrals. On that of
a Bishop of Worcester is his cathedral in front, and
on the back the impression from an antique ring, of
Venus and Cupid, whom he seems to have taken for
the Virgin and Bambino.
M. du Bosc has to travel in the department in
search of ancient documents, and sees much of the
clergy.




1860.]


UNPOPULARITY OF THE CLERGY.


7


I asked him what was their feeling towards the
Emperor?
Du Bosc.-Hostile, since the quarrel with the
Pope; but that is not injurious to him. The clergy
are so unpopular that their friendship or their hatred
is a minus quantity. Their favour would do him
harm, their dislike does him good.
Senior.-What are the causes of their unpopularity?
Du Bosc.-Their narrow education, which, begun
in the cottage and the village school, and carried on
in the seminary, turns them into the world having
never talked to anyone but a peasant, a child, or a
priest.
Their opinions are the ascetic, anti-social prejudices
in which they have been steeped in the seminary, and
which have been still more strongly incrusted on them
by their ecclesiastical superiors. In this diocese they
forbid the girls to dance. They insist on observances
which the people despise, they make the wife unhappy
if her husband will not confess, they interfere in the
management of children, and even in the expenses of
the household. They are petty, vexatious, ignorant
tyrants-all the more so because they are sincere.
On our return I repeated all this to Kergorlay,
and asked him how far he agreed with it.
Kergorlay.-It is much too highly     coloured.
Without doubt the quarrel with the Pope has offended
the clergy, who are generally Ultramontane, and
have no loyalty except to the Pope. In fact, that is




8


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


the only loyalty now remaining, except among some
old Legitimists of the Faubourg.    The Orleanists
think that the restoration of the Comte de Paris would
be useful to the country; the Imperialists had rather
keep the present dynasty than encounter the risks of
a revolution  but neither of these parties is loyal in
the old sense of the termn,-neither of them has the
personal devotion which you have towards your
Queen. This devotion the priests have to the Pope:
but they prefer their own interests to his.  Now the
Emperor has favoured those interests. He has augmented their salaries, he helps to build their churches,
he treats them  with  respect, and has forced all
the subordinate authorities to respect them. The
bishops are greater men than they have been since
1830. The clergy would prefer the Branche Ainee
to the Bonapartes, but they prefer the Bonapartes
to the Branche Cadette, and still more, to the Republic.
Again, though the inferior clergy are not gens du
monde, they   are not ignorant ot the world in
which they live. The years spent in the seminary,are indeed worse than wasted. They learn there
legendary theology and ascetic morals and prejudices,
but their earlier education, in the college or farmhouse,
and the village school, is not effaced in the seminary,
and the feelings produced by it revive when they
emerge into the life of a secular priest. Confession,
too, gives them a great insight into human nature.
So far from being a minus quantity, I believe their
influence, even in politics, to be considerable.




1860.] CLASS WHICH SUPPLIES THE PRIESTHOOD.


9


At the last election, our Bishop selected as a candidate for one of the arrondissements of this department a young man of some property, but little known.
He directed all his clergy to support him, and he was
brought in triumphantly.
Senior.-Do any persons belonging to the higher
classes take orders?
Kergorlay.-Very rarely; only enthusiasts. The
seminaries are recruited partly from the farmers, and
partly from the very lowest labouring families. The
best priests come from the latter. A farmer, if he
wishes to make a son a priest, always takes the dunce
of the family-the one who has not brains enough
to carry on a farm, or push his way in a town.
But the children of the very poor families look to
the priesthood as an object of the highest ambition.
They have not the means of preparing their children
for it, but they send them at their own expense, or at
that of the Commune, to school; the cure recommends
the best of them to the bishop; they are taken, perhaps, as enfans de choeur; sent by the bishop, or
through his influence, to the seminary, and, being
chosen for their talent and industry, and having nothing else to depend on, distinguish themselves in
the field which is open to a clergyman. It is not
wide, but it is long. Many portions of human knowledge are fenced off against him, but he may be a
great theologian, a great casuist, a great orator, and
even a great writer.
Religious questions are as important with us as
they are with you: what was called the Congregation,. %




10


CONVERSATIONS,


[1860.


that is, the ultra-religious party, overthrew the
Restoration.  The favour shown to hypocrisy, the
disgrace in which men of independent opinions found
themselves, the law of sacrilege, the general ultrareligious tone of the Administrator, which even
Villele-a man of the world, knowing its mischief
and its danger-was forced to assent to, and even
to join in, were the real causes of the Revolution of
1830.
The anti-religious, or at least the anti-Catholic,
character of Louis-Philippe's reign, the placing a
Protestant on the steps of the throne, and a Protestant at the head of the ministry, had much to do
with that of 1848.
The ambition, the superstition, and the ignorance
of the world of churchmen, make the Church a dangerous friend. It drives those who try to please it
into language and conduct which disgust the liberal
party. It arms against those who offend it the prejudices and superstitions of a party, not so active as
the liberal party, but enthusiastic and well disciplined. It is a mischievous ally and a mischievous
enemy.
If the Emperor were to die, the Empress would be
Regent. She is in the hands of the Jesuits. She
has all the superstitions of a devout Spaniard. If
her confessor were a wise man, he might put her into
the hands of an honest and able minister-if such a
one is to be found-and things might go well. But
an unwise confessor might attempt to govern himself
in her name.  A suspicion that such was the case,




1860.]


DEATH OF KING J]R6ME.


11


would be fatal to a dynasty so weakly rooted as our
dynasties are.
Again, if the Regency, or the Empire, fell to
Prince Napoleon, his fanatical irreligion would drive
the religious party mad, and there is no saying what
a large party, restrained by no scruples, believing
every means of serving the Church to be lawful,
might effect.
Have you heard of Prince Napoleon's conduct
at the death of King Jerome?
Senior.-I have heard that the Prince was anxious
to see him; that Dr. Rayer said that it was useless,
as the King was too far gone to recognise him; that
the Prince insisted, and that he forced his way into
the room.
Kergorlay.-And that the King said, ' Te voila,
mon brave,' and that Rayer's remark was,' Je vous
ai bien dit qu'il ne vous reconnaitrait pas.'
Well, that story is an invention; the real story is
this: —The Empress and the Princess Clotilde were
anxious that the King should not die without receiving the sacraments of the Church.   But they
knew that his son would try to prevent it, and were
of course afraid of a scene. They almost lived in the
King's apartments and had a priest within call. Just
as the King was dying, the Prince happened to be
absent.  The priest was introduced, and the Eucharist
was taken, and extreme unction was being administered when Prince Napoleon came in. The
Empress was kneeling.   She rose on his entrance,
and said, 'N'en voulez pas a Clotilde, c'est noi et




12


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


I'Er1pereur qui 'avons voulu.' The Prince turned
round, kicked the door, slammed it violently after him
as he went out, and did not see his father alive
again, for in a few minutes he was dead.
We talked at dinner of Madame Recamier, with
whom Kergorlay was intimate.
Kergorlay.-The best thing that has been written
on her is Madame Mohl's article in the National
Review.   Madame L       knew her well, but her
jealousy made her hostile to many of Madame
Recamier's friends. Some she has left out altogether;
others, such as Chateaubriand, she has made as disagreeable as she could.
Chateaubriand in society was simple, unobtrusive,
rather a listener than a talker. It was in his letters
and in his political conduct that his vanity and
jealousy showed themselves.
As soon as he entered Vill8le's cabinet, though a
mere homme de lettres, inexperienced in government,
he thought himself entitled to be its master, and
when the attempt to be so failed, he became its bitter
enemy. He was no debater; he could not improvise,
and therefore could not reply. He was of little use
as member of a government, but most formidable as
member of an opposition.
Senior.-His speeches were written and read?
Kergorlay.-Always.
Senior. —How, then, could they be effective?
Kergorlay.-Effective they were, and eminently
so. They were well written and admirably delivered.




1860.] BLUNDERS WHICH HELPED THE REVOLUTION. 13


I have known many written speeches influence powerfully an assembly; Royer Collard's, for instance.
Among the philosophers in the Chamber, Guizot
was the only really great speaker. Not only his
matter but his look, his voice, and his action, were
superb.   Sauzet * was a wonderful oratorical machine;
his speeches are nothing when read, but were irresistible  when  delivered.   I was present when       he
defended Chantelauze, one of the ministers of Charles
X.   I was then, as I hope I am        now, a Liberal.
I abhorred the ordonnances,t and I abhorred their
authors.   But Sauzet had not spoken for five minutes
before I was in tears.
There are four or five men the misconduct of each
of whom was necessary to the success of the Revolution. Sauzet was one. He was President on the
24th of February. He sent verbal orders to the
troops to repel the e'meutiers who were threatening
the Chamber of Deputies.      The general in command
refused  to act without a written       order.    Sauzet
refused to give one, and 1500 ruffians were allowed
* Paul Jean Pierre Sauzet was the son of a physician at Lyons.
He became a distinguished advocate.  After the downfall of
Charles X. he embraced political life, and attached himself successively to Lamartine and to Thiers. He was appointed Minister of
Justice by Thiers. When his party ceased to be in power, he
became one of the most violent opposers of the Mole cabinet. From
1839 to 1848 he was President of the Chamber of Deputies.-ED.
t The first ordonnance was to suspend the liberty of the press,
the second to dissolve the Parliament, and the third to set aside
the charters which the king had sworn to observe.-ED.




14


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


to dissolve a Chamber in the face of a guard of 5000
men.
Another was Mole. He wasted thirty-six hours in
trying to form a ministry. During that interregnum
the emeute was strengthening itself and the army
was becoming demoralised. If he had given up the
attempt as soon as its impracticability became evident,
that is, after the first hour or two, Guizot might
have been recalled, and the e'meute, which was irresistible on the 24th, might have been stifled on the
23rd.
Lamartine is a third. My relation, Mornay, had
obtained the assent of the leaders of the revolution
to the regency of the Duchess of Orleans, provided
that Lamartine consented. He feared that the Duchess
would be under the influence of Thiers, and in the
interest of his own miserable vanity destroyed our
last chance of constitutional monarchy.
September 8th.-We drove this morning into
St. L6, to see the Imperial Haras, or stud. On our
road we talked of the Emperor.
Kergorlay.-I can tell you a piece of diplomatic
news, little known, but which reached me from an
authentic source. Not long ago Montemolin * had an
interview  with the Emperor and Empress.    The
Emperor expressed great sympathy, but urged him
not to be in a hurry.    'If you will only wait
patiently,' he said, 'you will get all that you wish.


* The eldest son of Don Carlos. He died in 1861.-ED.




1860.]  MONTEMOLIN AND LOUIS NAPOLEON.


15


Policy consists in watching for an opportunity. II
ne faut rien brusquer.'
Senior.-I recognise a favourite maxim  of the
Emperor's.
Kergorlay.-Montemolin, perhaps as an excuse
for having made an apparently inopportune attempt,
complained that he had been ill supported by the
Spanish Legitimists.  'Faithful subjects,' he said,
'ought to be always ready to sacrifice their lives in
their sovereign's cause.' 'Yes,' said the Emperor,
' but on one condition: that he is ready to sacrifice
his. There are no privileges amongst revolutionists.'
'I did,' said Montemolin, ' all that prudence permitted.'
'There are occasions,' replied the Emperor,' when one
must do more. "Quand le vin est tire il faut le boire." '
I do not know the details of what followed, but it is
certain that they parted avec de 'aigreur.
I do not like this Russian news. We are told
that Alexander and the Prince Regent of Prussia
are to meet at Warsaw. Europe seems to be drawing
a cordon round us.
Senior. —It is merely a defensive cordon.
Kergorlay.-I am not sure of that. Merely defensive armaments cannot be continued indefinitely.
They cost too much. Austria professed to be merely
on the defensive in May 1859. But she found the
expense and anxiety intolerable and attacked.  So
may the present coalition. What I fear is a general
feeling that economy, tranquillity, and improvement
are impossible while a Bonaparte reigns in France.
Leopold fancies that he is going to annex Belgium,




16


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Prussia that he wants her Rhenish provinces, Austria
thinks that he is intriguing against her in Hungary,
Spain that he wishes to rectify his southern frontier,
Sardinia was indignant at the peace of Villa Franca,
and has been quarrelling with him ever since. I
believe that most of these fears are groundless, and
that the others are exaggerated, but you must
admit that the existence of such feelings endangers
peace.
Senior.-We shall not attack you, and I do not
think that the Continent will move while we stand
aloof.
Kergorlay. —There are ways of overthrowing a
dynasty without war. You cannot but know that
many of your friends believe that it was you who
overthrew Louis Philippe.
Senior.-I know that they think so, and I have
always told them that their belief was absurd. I
differ from you, however, as to the danger to which
peace is exposed by our mutual fears. I believe that
they will preserve peace.  Nothing but fear will
make us arm. Nothing but fear will keep you quiet.
Kergorlay.-My own opinion as to Louis Napoleon is that he does not wish for war. He knows
that it would not be popular. The Corps Legislatif
warned him, in terms which he understood, that they
would disapprove a war. I do not believe that they
would refuse a war budget, but they would criticise
it, and they might refuse to extend the conscription;
they might, and I believe that they would, seriously
embarrass the Government.   War, too, would be




1860.]


LOUIS NAPOLEON ON FREE TRADE.


17


fatal to his commercial policy, which is a child of
his own, and a favourite child. He believes in its
success, and is anxious that that success should convince the world that he was right and all his advisers
wrong.
Senior. —Does he understand the subject?
Kergorlay.-Perfectly.  Any man of strong sense,
unwarped by private interests or prejudices, and uncommitted by previous expressions of opinion, must
understand it. The proofs are all on the surface;
and I have heard him    discuss and explain them.
The conversation at his dinners is free.
During the session I dined with him, with a large
party of members of the Corps Legislatif.    After
dinner there was a little knot in the corner, to which
somebody was talking protectionism.  The Emperor
joined  it, and  explained  as clearly  as  Michel
Chevalier could have done that protectionism is the
sacrifice of the future to the present, and of the many
to the few, and urged, too, that free trade was the
best preservative of peace.
There are a hundred stallions in the Haras, some
of them gifts from foreign sovereigns.  Four Persian
horses, large and finely formed, were a present from
the Shah. Many were bought in England: Assault,
for 98,000 francs; Flying Dutchman, for 105,000 -more than 80001. The price charged for the use of
a stallion of mixed blood is 10 francs, for a thoroughbred 100. A stallion does not cover on an average
VOL. I.                                 C




CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


more than fifty or sixty times in a season, the young
and the old not more than forty times, the middleaged seventy or eighty. The thorough-breds live to
twenty-five or twenty-six, the others to about twenty.
There are twenty-six of these Haras; they are expensive but very useful. The use of geldings is
increasing in France. I remarked that the horses in
the diligences in Paris are all stallions.
Kergorlay.-Yes, and principally for this reason.
The coats of geldings are much thicker in winter than
those of stallions.  It is necessary to clip them.  To
clip a horse costs ten francs.  The Company of the
Diligences of Paris has 10,000 horses; to clip them
would cost 100,000 francs a-year.
In the evening the magnates of the town dined at
the Castle. Among them were the Prefet, the SousPrefet, the Procureur General, the Maire, the Juge
d'Instruction, the Superintendent of the Haras, and
others whose names I did not hear.  There was not,
as there would have been in England, a clergyman.
The conversation was local, without any mixture of
politics. I got tired and went to bed before they
broke up.
September 9th.-We drove to Coutances.     The
country is pretty, the inclosures small and surrounded
by fosses. A fosse is a mound five or six feet high,
and four or five broad, planted with a single or
double row of trees, thickly placed, so as to make a




1860.]


SUBDIVISION OF LAND.


19


gigantic hedge.  The frame of fosses surrounding a
field often occupies as much ground as the field
itself.
Kergorlay.-It is a deplorable waste of land,
besides the injury done by the roots and the shade;
but in this country and in Brittany the practice has
existed for centuries. Forced partitions increase it.
The co-heirs, in their mutual jealousy, often require
each field to be divided.  If partitions were managed
as they are with you, and the whole property were
divided into only as many lots as there are heirs,
there would not be much ' morcellement.' But according to the practice of our peasants an estate of
twenty fields may be divided by two co-heirs into
forty fields, and in the next generation into eighty,
without ary increase of population.
Senior.-Cannot it be sold?
Kergorlay.- Not without a lawsuit.    The expenses of a sale, including the tax to the State, are
above ten per cent of the value, or more than three
years' income, to which must be added the expenses
of a suit to decide whether a sale shall take place or
not, which is at the discretion of the tribunal. The
rent of the best land-and the land here is very good
-is from twenty to thirty francs an acre, according
to its situation; the capital is small, and the return
under sixteen bushels an acre.
Coutances is a small town, with a fine cathedral
in the simple Pointed style of the beginning of the




20


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


thirteenth century. The roof of the choir is 100 feet
(French) high, that of the central tower is 220, or
about 240 English feet.   We ascended it.    The
country, from the abundance of hedge-row trees,
resembles a forest.  Almost all are lopped; the
heads, therefore, expand. The high roofs and lofty
chimneys are like Milton's 'towers and battlements,
bosomed high in tufted trees.'
At dinner Madame de Kergorlay talked of her
mother's castle near Peronne, in Picardy.
'It is a fine place,' she said, 'but during the
Empire there was an objection to it. It lies directly
on the road between Paris and Brussels, and about
half way. It was a road frequently travelled by the
Imperial family.  Caffarelli, who is a relation of
ours, told them that they would find themselves
more comfortable at our house than at an inn. That
family ne se genait pas, and at last they got into
the habit of making us their half-way house. Once
the Princess Borghese wrote to my mother to say
that she was coming the next day, and begged that
she might put them to no inconvenience as she
wanted only twenty-six beds. Another time, my
mother, returning from  a short absence, was informed as she approached the castle that some of
the Imperial family had established themselves in it.
She turned her horses' heads and left them in possession.


This is the last day of our pleasant visit to




1860.]


CHATEAU BEAUX FOSSES.


21


Canisy; to-morrow      we go to Corcelle's * chateau,
Beaux Fosses, near Alenqon.
Monday, September 10th.     Chateau Beaux Fosses.
-We reached this place in the afternoon.           The
chateau is a modern house, an enlargement of one
which formerly belonged to the Marquis de Puysy,
who took the Royalist side in the Vendean rebellion.
It stands in a small park, with fine trees, in a pretty
country. As is the case in almost all the parts of
Normandy     that  I  have seen, pasture much predominates. The hedgerow trees, the small inclosures,
the comparative absence of tillage, the deep lanes,
and the scattered cottages, each with its garden and
orchard, and   the forest-like appearance of all the
distant prospects, put me in mind of Devonshire.
Our party consists of the Comte and Comtesse de
Corcelle, their daughter, the Marquise de Chambrun,
and her husband, and a charming little boy about
ten years old-Corcelle's only surviving son.      They
lost another boy, who was between him and Madame
de Chambrun. ' Une perte,' said Madame de Corcelle,
* Count Frangois de Corcelle shared the opinions of Tocqueville before the Revolution of 1848, but after that time his ardent
Catholicism drew him nearer to Montalembert. In 1849 he represented France at the Vatican, and assisted the Pope in restoring
the Papal government. It was said that Pius IX. entreated him
to remain, and be his Prime Minister; but M. de Corcelle refused
to forsake his own country. After the Franco-German war he
again became ambassador to the Vatican. He has now entirely
given up public life.-ED.




22


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


'qui a ete' le malheur de notre vie.' She is a daughter
of Madame de Lasteyrie, who was a daughter of the
General Lafayette; George Lafayette was her uncle,
Mesdames de Remusat and Gustave de Beaumont are
her sister and first cousin.
The Chateau is full of interesting memorials.
There is a Sevres service, given by Louis XVI. to
Washington, and by Washington to Lafayette, an
onyx of the twelfth century, given by the Pope to
Corcelle, and portrait after portrait with its history.
I took a long walk with Corcelle before breakfast.
We passed through the village, pretty and neat, and
ascended a rocky eminence surrounded by ancient
fortifications.  It was for thirty-eight years the
extreme outpost of the Anglo-Norman territory, and
after defying open attack was surprised while the
garrison were catching their Good Friday's dinner
in the brook at its foot.   He asked me whether
Guizot and Thiers expected peace or war.
Senior. Peace.
Corcelle. —So  do I, but only for the present.
Louis Napoleon believes himself to be the type of
the French nation.  He thinks that his feelings and
wishes are also theirs.  To a considerable extent he
is right; the great majority of the French are eager
for war, and glory, and conquest, and extension of
territory.  These feelings, originally  excited  by
Louis XIV., exaggerated by Napoleon, and kept
alive, or rather resuscitated, by the Opposition in
their blind eagerness to discredit Louis Philippe,
have taken possession of the uneducated and ill



1860.] GARIBALDI WILL SACRIFICE EVERYTHING. 23


educated masses. In no mind are they stronger than
in that of Louis Napoleon; that is the secret of what
is called his knowledge of the French character. He
knows it, because it is his own.   He thinks, with
truth, that those masses prefer the Bonaparte policy
to that of the Bourbons, war to peace, intimidation
to conciliation, glory to prosperity, equality to liberty,
and he is anxious to show himself a Bonaparte.  But
he is dilatory and irresolute; he is easily checked,
easily turned aside; he is alarmed by the attitude of
Europe; and I really believe that his present wish is
to sit down under his laurels and enjoy uncontrolled
expenditure, shameless adulation, and all the vulgar
pleasures of mind and body. But events seem to be
preparing which, whether he like it or not, will force
him to action.   Italy is in the hands of Garibaldi.*
He is not a statesman, he is not a prudent, he is not
even an honest man.
Senior.-I thought him an enthusiast, but honest.
He is incorruptible; il est pret a faire tous les sacrifices pour l'unite Italienne.
Corcelle.-Instead of 'faire tous les sacrifices,' you
should say, ' a sacrifier tout,' not only his own life, but
the lives of all who stand in his way, or whose deaths
he may think useful.    Like Mazzini, he is utterly
unscrupulous.   Look at the people whom he employs.
Orsini, whose title to favour is that he is the brother
of an assassin; Zambianchi, who murdered twelve
men, many of them   innocent, all untried, during the


* Garibaldi entered Naples on the 7th September.-ED.




24


C ONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


siege of Rome. I knew one of them, the priest of
the Minerve, an old, inoffensive man. They were
seized by Zambianchi, and as they passed the church
of San Calixte on their way, as they thought, to
trial, Zambianchi stopped them, gave them    five
minutes for prayer, and shot them. I was then with
Oudinot before Rome; the story was told to me
when we entered the town, not many days after.
I said that Italy is in the hands of Garibaldi, but
Garibaldi is also in the hands of Italy.
Your Government seem to believe in a constitutional peaceful kingdom for Italy. It is impossible;
Italy is unfit for constitutional monarchy.  Even
Piedmont, the wisest portion of it, submits to it only
as a means of aggrandisement. If Charles Albert or
Victor Emanuel had remained at peace, Piedmont
would have become despotic or revolutionary.
Senior.-The Tuscans are quiet, sensible people.
Corcelle.-The educated Tuscans are sensible, but
you have called the populace to power, and they are
carried away by the revolutionary torrent. Do you
suppose that Italian mobs can calculate chances?
Do you suppose that even if Garibaldi were wise
enough to wish to keep his hands off Venice they
would let him  do so? If he attacks Venice, he is
hbeaten. Can Louis Napoleon allow Austria to re-,establish her influence below the Po?
Senior.-He threatens Piedmont that he will do
so.
Corcelle.-And will he allow Austria to regain
Lombardy? If the Piedmontese troops, or Piedmon



1860.]  LIMITS TO ENGLAND S NEUTRALITY.


25


tese volunteers from Milan, cross the Mincio, and
Austria repels them, will she not follow them into
Lombardy?    Can  Louis Napoleon   suffer all the
results of his Italian campaign to vanish?  His
threats to Piedmont are mere threats; he will not
venture to act on them. To do so would be against
all his policy, personal and national. He would be
again exposed to the Italian daggers, he would lose
his prestige of success, he would have allowed his
friends to be ruined, and his enemy to become
stronger than ever. He cannot do this. If Garibaldi
is beaten, Louis Napoleon must rescue him, and then
we shall have a German war. We shall beat the
Germans at first-we always do so. Will you permit
us to reap the fruits of victory?
Senior.-If France were to make an aggressive
war, if Piedmont, having annexed Southern Italy,
were to leave Austria    undisturbed,  and  Louis
Napoleon were to declare the balance of power to
be so altered that Rhenish Prussia or Belgium must
be thrown into his scale, I have no doubt that we
should try, even by war, to prevent such an annexation; but I am not sure how we should act if war
were forced on Louis Napoleon in defence of his ally,
and in defence of Italian liberty.
Corcelle.-Your supposition that Italy may leave
Austria undisturbed is a very improbable one. Still
its consequences are worth considering. I believe
that the only bond among Italians is war; that
peace, instead of a cement, would become a solvent;
that left to themselves they would crumble into dust.




26


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Mais ce serait une poussiere re'volutionnaire.  I believe
that their conspiracies, their Carbonarism, and their
Socialism, would infect other countries, even yours at
last, for in England, as well as on the Continent, these
elements exist, together with others almost equally
noxious which have an affinity to them. But if Italy
were to remain united and monarchical, I feel that
not merely Louis Napoleon, but, what is more important, France, would have a right to ask for an
extension of territory.  She might ask for it on the
south, on the west, or to the north. She might take
Belgium and the Rhine, or Catalonia, or the Riviera
and Genoa. Would you permit her to do any one of
those things?
Senior.-I have already said that we should resist
the annexation to France of Belgium    or of the
German provinces on either bank of the Rhine. I
was not aware that you coveted the Riviera or Catalonia.
Corcelle.-All that was arranged at Plombieres
was, that if Piedmont were raised to ten millions,
as she would be by the annexation of Lombardy and
Venetia, she should give Savoy to France. It seems
a natural consequence that if she is raised to fourteen
millions by the annexation of Modena, Parma, Tuscany, and the Romagna, she must pay something
more; and that if she gets nine millions more by
incorporating the Two Sicilies, she must cede still
more.  She cannot give us Turin, but Genoa would
be very convenient to us. As to Catalonia, I can tell
you something more precise. I know that in May




1860.] rTHE EMPEROR COVETS CATALONIA.


27


last an offer was made by Louis Napoleon to Queen
Isabella to enter into an intimate alliance with herto renew, in short, the family compact, and to assist
her in obtaining Portugal if she would cede Catalonia
to France. That was the meaning. The words used
were, ' That the Emperor would see with pleasure the
annexation of Portugal to Spain, if Spain would
consent to a rectification of the French frontier to the
south.'
Senior. —This explains his proposal to promote
Spain to the rank of a great power, and also, when
Queen Isabella refused these offers, his return to
Montemolin.
Corcelle.-Well, may we take Catalonia, if Spain
will give it?
Senior. —Not at the expense of Portugal.
Corcelle.-Will you fight for Portugal?
Senior. —If she is attacked we shall.  We have
guaranteed her independence.
Corcelle.-If it comes to a general war, a gulf is
opened to which I see no bottom.  If we succeed, we
destroy the liberties of Europe; if we are beaten,
national humiliation will unchain passions as mad as
those of 1793. A revolutionary force will be generated which will carry away certainly the throne, and
probably the altar. It may enable us to throw down
the thrones and altars of our neighbours. Instead of
destroying the liberties of Europe, we may destroy its
securities. Instead of spreading despotism, we may
spread anarchy. Europe can never be safe until France
is constitutional.




28


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


We talked at breakfast of Lamoriciere. He is
Corcelle's cousin and intimate friend.
Senior.-Was it at your suggestion that he went
to Rome?
Corcelle.-It was. I saw that the Pope was in
danger, though I did not perceive the extent or the
imminence of the danger. I deeply distrusted Louis
Napoleon, and, even if he were the sincerest of friends,
I felt that he would be still more friendly if he
thought that the Pope could do without him.
I examined the state of the papal army, and
found it utterly worthless. There were about 16,000
men, dispersed in little garrisons of a couple of
hundred each, incapable of communication in consequence of the absence of roads, ignorant, undisciplined, even undrilled.  The officers were perhaps
worse than the privates, for no man of any spirit, or
real military feeling, would enter the childish service
of the Pope. The stupidest of the cardinals was
always chosen to be minister of war.
Senior.-I was acquainted with one papal minister
of war, Cardinal Piccolomini, and he justified your
statement.
Corcelle.-I knew Lamoriciere's talents, not only
as a general, but as an administrator. I thought
him the man in the whole world most fit to create a
papal army, and, I might almost say providentially,
he was unemployed.
I easily persuaded the Pope to invite him. He
was ashamed, indeed, of having to show to a French




1860.]   APPOINTMENT OF LAMORICIERE.


29


soldier the nakedness of the land, but he has too
much sense to yield to the feeling. I carried the
invitation myself to Lamoriciere. With him I had
great difficulty. He is not young, he is rich, he is
fond of his family, he has a high reputation, he
had not served for ten years. He was not willing to
risk health, fortune, and fame. A letter from  the
Pope, imploring his aid, decided him.
We left Paris at the same time; but as I travelled
directly, and he went round by Trieste and Ancona,
I got to Rome a few days before him.
I found our minister the Duc de Grammont, in
great excitement.
'It is intolerable,' he said, 'that the Pope, who
exists only by French protection, should put his army
under a French me'content, without consulting us.
If Lamoriciere comes, I shall ask for my passports.'
'The Pope,' I answered, 'does not exist by French
protection. You are here for your own pleasure, not
for his. He has often told you, and he is ready
to repeat to you, that you may go whenever you
like.'
'Why did he not consult us?' said the Duc.
'Because,' I answered, 'he is an independent
sovereign.'
'At least,' he said, ' Lamoriciere might have asked
the Emperor's permission. He is not a sovereign.'
'Nor,' I replied, 'does he admit that he is a
subject of the Emperor. His sovereign is not at the
Tuileries.  You may propose to him to ask the




30


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Emperor's permission. I will not, and I do not
think that you will succeed.'
Next day the Moniteur stated that the Emperor
had granted to General Lamoriciere permission to
take the command of the Papal troops.
I was present at the first interview between him
and the Pope. They were mutually pleased.
' C'est une mne toute pure,' said Lamoriciere; 'on y
voit jusqu'au fond.'
The Pope was amused by Lamoriciere's military
frankness.
The Duchess of Parma had presented to the Pope
ten guns.
'That will be enough, I suppose?' he said.
'Ten! ' said Lamoriciere; 'I shall want fifty.'
' Bah! ' said the Pope; 'no pope ever had twenty.'
'I can't help that,' said Lamoriciere; 'I must
have fifty.'
'I suppose,' said the Pope, 'that we must buy
horses in Austria?'
N'allez pas faire cette betise,' said Lamoriciere;
'your own are better and cheaper.'
Senior.-We have been told that there has been
some jarring between the Pope and Lamoriciere.
Corcelle.-None whatever. There is perfect mutual
confidence. Lamoriciere has had his own way as far
as the Papal revenue has been able to answer his
wants. He has created a good army of 25,000 men:
8000 are Romans, 6000 are Swiss, and the rest are
French, Germans, and Irish. The Irish are among




1860.]


CARDINAL ANTONELLI.


31


the very best. Some mistakes were made at the
beginning. One of the recruiting agents made promises of pay and privileges which were totally
unauthorised and incapable of fulfilment. Some of
them were despatched without officers, and misconducted themselves on the road. Those who were
dissatisfied were sent home, and they told, as discharged servants do, all sorts of lies. But there is
now an Irish battalion of 1200 men, well disciplined
and well disposed.  Many are old soldiers.  Some
served under Lord Clyde at Lucknow. There were
scarcely any lateral communications in the Roman
States. To go from Viterbo to Spoleto you had to
pass through Rome. Lamoriciere has made crossroads, which are necessary for military purposes, and
will be useful commercially.
I believe that Lamoriciere, with his 25,000 men,
could beat 50,000 Garibaldians or Piedmontese, such
as the Piedmontese now are. But if he is attacked
by 80,000, if Garibaldi menace him on the south,
and Piedmont on the north, he will scarcely be able
to do more than keep Ancona and the Comarca.
Senior. —Is Antonelli an able man?
Corcelle.-He is a diplomatist of the Italian school.
He knows how to elude, and delay, and retract;
but he knows nothing of the art of government,
or of the sciences from which that art draws its
maxims.   He is no political economist, he is no
legist, he is no statistician. His knowledge and
his experience are purely Roman. He has never




32


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


travelled farther than to Gaeta, and what he saw
there was not much better than what he had left
behind, or indeed very different.   He has vague,
imperfect ideas as to what constitutes a good or a bad
administration.
Senior.-Do you believe that the secularisation of
the Papal administration is possible and advisable?
Corcelle.-It certainly is advisable, so far as it is
possible. Ecclesiastics, from the narrowness of their
education, from their celibacy, from the peculiar
nature of their intercourse with the world, from the
tendency to consider government as an institution
rather to prevent sin than crime, from the asceticism
which renders them, if sincere, indifferent to progress
and to worldly prosperity, are more unfit to be administrators than perhaps any other class whatever.
Soldiers, country gentlemen, lawyers, men of letters,
and men of the world, have all furnished good
administrators.  Ecclesiastics never.  But there are
great difficulties. The first is the want of good laymen.   All the higher offices having been for centuries
closed against laymen, no laymen have been educated
for them.
Senior.-Is it true that the Pope wished you to
become his Home Minister?
Corcelle.-He said something of the kind; but he
knew too well the impossibility of my accepting the
offer to make it seriously.
Much, however, might be done.    At present the
Prelature, whether in Holy Orders or not, all wear




1860.] RIELATIONS BETWEEN FRANCE AND ROME. 33


the ecclesiastical dress and enjoy ecclesiastical privileges; and though they do not all take the vow of
celibacy, scarcely any of them marry. All this might
be put an end to. The Monsignori might be encouraged to marry, to remain lay, to dress as laymen.
The most distinguished of the lay Monsignori might
be employed in high offices. Without any sudden or
violent change, lay administration might be gradually
introduced.
We took a long walk to a neighbouring forest to
see what are called the finest trees in the country.
They are tall-many of them 120 feet high, and 80
to the first bough. A celebrated oak, which bears
the name of the oak of St. Louis, is probably 30 feet
higher. The forest is thickly planted on a gentle
slope and looks magnificent from a slight distance,
but the beauty is gone when you enter it and find
yourself among lofty, smooth, naked poles, with
bushy heads.
We talked of the relations between France and the
Papal Government.
Corcelle.-We entered Rome in 1849, as the restorers of order and public safety. The predominant
feeling of the Roman delegates who came to negotiate
with me was fear of the excesses which Garibaldi's
volunteers might commit in their last struggles.
They were anxious to finish the capitulation, and let
our troops enter as quickly as possible. I had inserted some words expressing the confidence of the
VOL. I.                               D




34


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Jomans and of the French that the Pope would grant
to his people liberal institutions. They struck them
out, 'We don't care,' they said to me, ' about institutions, if we are to remain the subjects of the Pope.
We want to be a part of a great nation. We want to
be the subjects of the King of Italy.'
This is the feeling of all ambitious men.  They
wish their country to be great, not that it may be
happy, but that they themselves may be great. They
wish for large power, large patronage, and large
salaries; and those are to be had only in a large
empire.
Louis Napoleon's celebrated letter to Edgar Ney *
produced little effect.  The Romans did not wish for
the Code Napoleon; and he soon forgot it himself.
For many years his great object was to be sacre by
the Pope. The Pope temporised. He did not refuse,
but he raised difficulties. At last he said it might
have been done some years before, but that he was
now too old to travel; that the Emperor must come
to Rome. From that time Louis Napoleon's friendship for the Pope cooled. The occupation was prolonged, but rather to gratify the vanity of France than
the interests of the Pope.
After the pea e of Villa Franca, he wished to
please all parties: to please the Carbonari by inducing the Pope to secularise his administration; to
* A private letter expressing his high approval of the expedition to Rome.-ED.




1860.] THE EMPEROR'S PROPOSALS TO THE POPE. 35


please Austria by restoring at least Tuscany to its
Grand Duke; to please the Piedmontese by securing
to them Parma and Modena, and by giving them
hopes of keeping Romagna.
Here is a copy of the proposals which he made to
the Pope in last March:' PROPOSITIONS FAITES AU MOIS DE MARS, 1860.
'La question des Romagnes demeurant exclue de
la discussion, les Plenipotentiaires de la France, de
l'Autriche, de l'Espagne, du Portugal, de la Baviere,
de la Belgique, des deux Siciles, et de la Sardaigne,
se reuniront en conference avec un representant du
Saint Siege pour proceder a la signature d'un protocol,
ou d'une convention dont les termes seraient accept6s
d'avance, et qui arreteraient les points suivants.
'1~. Le Saint Siege annoncerait son intention de
proclamer les reformes decidees en principe, ou, ce
qui vaudrait mieux, le fait de leur publication
prealable.
'2~. Les puissances Catholiques sus designees
auxquelles le Bresil serait invite a se joindre, garantiraient au Saint Siege la possession des provinces
restees sous sa domination.
' 3~. Les memes puissances, chacune au prorata de
la population Catholique, inscriveraient en tfte du
gros livre de la dette publique, une somme fixe qui
serait versee aux echeances d'usage entre les mains
du representant du Saint Siege.




36


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


' 4~. II serait convenu qu'a l'exception de la
France, de l'Autriche, des deux Siciles, et de la
Sardaigne, les autres  puissances  catholiques de
l'Europe, c'est a dire, la  Baviere, la  Belgique,
l'Espagne, le Portugal, fourniraient successivement,
et pour une periode de 3 ans un contingent de 2000
hommes d' infanterie, et de 500 hommes de cavalerie
destines a participer a la garnison de Rome, sans
pouvoir etre employes a aucun autre usage.
' 5. La France et l'Autriche s'offriraient pour
faciliter le transport, par mer, du contingent des puissances qui leur en adresseraient la demande.'
He tried a remarkable means to forward his negotiations.
Louis Napoleon likes indirect paths, and knows
so little of Rome that he thought that a young French
lady, living in Rome, with whom he had been on
terms of intimacy, could influence the Papal Government. He wrote to her a letter which I saw, but
could not copy. Its substance was-that he writes
in very bad spirits, that the Italians are ungrateful,
that Piedmont opposes him, that Rome seems unwilling to help him, that he fears that the glories
of the war may be obscured by the ill-success of
the peace. That, in the name of past friendship,
he entreats her, and if it be necessary he orders her,
to exert herself to obtain the consent of the Pope to
his terms. If they are refused, he must throw himself into the arms of the King of Sardinia.




1860.] EFFECT OF THE POPE'S QUITTING ROME.


37


Senior.-Had he any success?
Corcelle.-Not the slightest. 'Elle fut eoonduite
sans ceregmonie.' And he has, as he threatened,
played the game of Sardinia. I believe that now he
will play the game of Garibaldi.
He made the Tuscan revolution. M. de la Ferriere,
our minister in Florence in 1859, is my cousin. The
instructions which he received from Walewski, and his
own honour and good sense, made him anxious to
support the Grand Duke, if he would restore the Constitution. Such was also the wish of all the wisest
and best of the Tuscans. But when Prince Napoleon
came, with 30,000 men at his back, he overruled
Walewski, told La Ferriere that the Emperor had
resolved to dethrone the Grand Duke, and set the
Revolution going.
Senior. —Do you believe that Prince Napoleon
wished to take the Grand Duke's place?
Corcelle.-He has always disclaimed any such
intention. He says that nothing will induce him to
leave Paris. And I believe him to be sincere.
September 12th.-The news of the Piedmontese
demands on Rome reached us this morning.
Corcelle.-They must be made in concert with
Louis Napoleon. If so, the Pope will have to quit
Rome. If Providence should permit his absence to
be permanent, the effects on religion-even on civilisation-will be disastrous.
A Pope, the subject, or even the guest, of a




38


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


foreign sovereign, would lose his independence, and
with his independence the respect of the Catholic
clergy.
The time is past when the Catholic bishops were
men of birth and station, supported by their own
revenues, able and willing to resist the temporal
power.   They are now men of humble origin, trained
to look to the Government for their salaries and their
promotion, and trained to respect the noblesse as their
natural superiors. All that keeps up their heads, all
that gives them any backbone, is the support of the
Pope. If the Pope be degraded, if they be no longer
able to lean on him, they will fall at the feet of
the Government. If the bishops be subservient,
so will be the clergy. And if the clergy be the slaves
of the Government, they will lose the respect of the
people.  They will be considered as ' 'ombre de la
police.'
Now the people take their religion on trust.
They must do so.     They have neither time, nor
knowledge, nor intelligence, to inquire into its evidences.  If they distrust their clergy, they will not
become Protestants, —they will become infidels.
France has already lost its loyalty. It fears authority, but neither loves nor respects it. It has lost
its respect for its aristocracy.  If it loses its respect
for religion, what will there be to restrain it?  You
may say with Lucretius:
'Suave mari magno, turbantibus mquora ventis
E terra alterius magnum spectare laborem.'




1860.]:POWER OF THE POPE OVER THE CLERGY.  39


It is an insular feeling. But are you sure that the
land will be firm under you?
Senior.-To what extent does the Pope now influence your clergy?
Corcelle.-To a considerable extent.  They are
subject not only to his moral and religious influence,
but also to his temporal power. He can refuse to
make them bishops.
Senior.-And does he exercise that power?
Corce'le.-Certainly he does; but we do not hear
of it, for a prudent Government always asks his consent before it nominates. A case, however, occurred
not long ago, in which his consent was publicly
refused. The Emperor nominated a certain Abbe to
a bishopric, and the nomination was inserted in the
Moniteur. The Pope knew the man to be a servile
Imperialist: and, besides, he was deaf, which is a
canonical impediment.  A negotiation followed, in
which one of the cures of Paris took part. He wrote
long letters to me and to the Duc de Grammont,
urging the danger to the Pope if he publicly affronted
the Emperor. The Pope was firm. He refused his
sanction. The Abbe is still only an abbe, but the cure
has been rewarded by the Cross of the Legion of
Honour.
Thursday, September 13th.  Chartres.-We left
Beaux Fosses this morning, and on our road to
Paris spent a couple of hours in the Cathedral of
Chartres.




40


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


It is the finest that we have seen. The ordinary
fault of French cathedrals is the want of breadth
corresponding to their length and height. This is
eminently the case in the Church of St. Ouen; but
in that of Chartres, length, breadth, and height, are
all in proportion. It produces a feeling of uniform
vastness. All that is fine, at least, in the interior,
belongs to the thirteenth century. In the seventeenth
century, a screen, partly stone and partly iron, was
drawn between the choir and the nave, and a huge
virgin, raised up on marble clouds, was squeezed in
behind the high altar, and allowed to shut out the
Lady Chapel. I hope that the good taste which has
restored Bayeux, and left the whole magnificent vista,
from the western front to the apse, and through the
arches of the apse in the Lady Chapel, free, may be
allowed to remove these barbarous obstructions from
the choir of Chartres.
Saturday, September 15th.-I spent the day with
A. B. C., in his pretty villa near Paris.
A. B. C.-All that is going on, on the part of
the Emperor, is a comedy; though, if the species
to which a drama belongs is decided by its catastrophe, it may be a tragedy. No one who knows
anything of Louis Napoleon can believe that Cavour
and Garibaldi are acting in opposition to.his wishes.
As he could crush both of them by a stroke of his
paw, he could stop both of them by merely lifting
up his paw.




1860.]


FRANCE MUST HAVE BELGIUM.


41


And no one who knows anything of France can
believe that we shall suffer a new Prussia to be
constructed at our gates, without requiring an accession of strength in proportion to the increased
force that may be turned against us-and what
increase can we have, except the Rhine from Strasburg to Rotterdam?
Senior.-I am told that he has been coquetting
with Spain for the Ebro?
A. B. C.-I know that he has. But a man must
be as bad a politician as he is, to think of trying
to extend our empire to the south-west, over a
people who hate us, who are eminently formidable
in defensive war, and who could not be annexed
without having been subdued.
No; the Walloons and the Flemings, who speak
our language, who have similar institutions, whose
commercial and manufacturing interests would profit
by the change of masters, and who      have no
historical connexion with their present sovereigns,
and no traditional vanity to be irritated by it, are
the new Frenchmen whom    we must make, if the
union of Italy should require the balance of power
to be re-adjusted.
This, I believe that he feels, though among the
wild projects that pass through his ill-regulated fancy,
the annexation of Catalonia was one.
I further believe that the acquisition of the Rhine
has been his object for the last thirty years, ever
since the death of his elder brother made him believe




42


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


himself destined to govern France. But he has pursued it, and is pursuing it, in his peculiar style,
slowly, indirectly, circuitously. He never makes a
direct bound, his spring is always sideways. He never
meant the treaty of Villa Franca, or the treaty of
Zurich, to be executed. He intended Sardinia to
annex Parma, and Modena, and Tuscany, and the
Romagna, and Sicily, and Naples. He intends her
to annex Rome. Lamoriciere is cut off from Ancona,
and must concentrate himself in Rome. Garibaldi
will not attack him there. But the Sardinian party
will seduce and demoralise his troops. Revolutionary
crowds will assemble under the windows of the
Quirinal. There will be cries against the Pope's
person; perhaps assassinations of his ministers.
Guyon * will ask for a written order to disperse them
by force. The Pope will refuse. Guyon will be instructed to say, that unless he be allowed to act, he
cannot guarantee the safety of Rome or of the Pope.
He will suggest a retreat to Civita Vecchia. The
Pope, perhaps, may prefer Ostia; but when once he
has quitted Rome all is over. Rome becomes the
capital of the kingdom of Italy, and then Louis
Napoleon asks for the Rhine. His case will be
plausible. Every public act, down to the recall of
Talleyrand from  Turin, has been a protest against
Sardinian aggrandisement. He will say to England,
'All this is your doing; you sympathised with


* The French general in Rome.-ED.




1860.]


VANITY OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


43


Ricasoli and Garibaldi; you forbade me to interfere
with the wishes of the Italians; you urged me to
tie the hands of Austria; you held up to Europe,
and especially to the Romans and to the Neapolitans, every Italian government except that of
Piedmont, as oppressive, as infamous, as intolerable.
When I was forced to take Savoy, you must have
seen the obligations which the further progress of
Piedmont would impose on me. I yield to necessity,
to a necessity which you yourselves have created.'
All this I say rather from an attentive study of
his character during three whole years, than from
actual infbrmation. But some information I have.
I know that when the Italian deputies, Farini and
Cialdini, saw him the other day at Chambery, he said
to them, 'Whatever you do, do it as quickly as you
can.' He wishes it to be done during his pleasure
tour, and he takes his pleasure tour at this instant, in
order that it may be done in his absence.
I know, too, that one of his inmost feelings is
hatred of the Pope. As a Carbonaro, he hates him.
As a revolutionist, he hates him. He hates him for
having refused the Sacre. He hates him as the possessor of a spiritual power which his own temporal
power cannot break or elude. His ambition, or rather
his vanity,, is beyond all description, beyond all comparison, except among the Cesars. He is a mixture
of Augustus and Nero-as anxious for power as
Augustus, as anxious for admiration as Nero. He
would like, like Augustus, to be Pontifex Maximus,




44


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


as well as Imperator; and like Nero, to be the first
of flute-players. Hence his jealousy of all eminence.
If he heard that a great dancer had come to Paris, his
first idea would be to rival him; and if he thought
that he could do so, he would like to collect all
Paris in the Place Vendomre, and exhibit his activity
and grace from the top of the Column. I have no
doubt that one of his motives for wishing to merge
all Italy in Sardinia is his jealousy of Garibaldi.
Garibaldi is more picturesque than he is, a better
soldier, a greater conqueror. He hopes that when
Italy is quiet under a real king, a man born in the
purple, Garibaldi's role will be over. On the whole,
therefore, the chances of peace seem to be almost
desperate. If Sardinia succeeds, he claims the Rhine,
and he would not get it without a war. If Sardinia
is beaten, he must come to her assistance. His army
is good and large; his finances, for four or five years
to come, are inexhaustible; his subjects are homogeneous. Austria has a dispirited army, a ruined
exchequer, and an empire composed of nine or ten
different nations, disliking one another, and detesting
their central government. Nothing but the aid of the
rest of Europe can save her. And I believe that that
aid will be given. I believe that Prussia will give it,
that Belgium will give it, that Holland will give it,
that Russia will give it, and that you will give it.
If you do not, you deserve to be trampled on one
after another.
Even if war can be avoided, even if Europe con



1860.]


TEMPORAL POWER OF THE POPE.


45


sent to grant to France what she will ask, or if
France consent to the aggrandisement of Sardinia
without asking for any equivalent; even in either
of these improbable good fortunes, I still foresee
great calamities. The Pope will lose his temporal
power. That is one of the few things which seem to
be certain. Whether his spiritual power do, or do
not quit him with his temporal power, the consequences, in either alternative, will be disastrous to the
Catholic world. If it do quit him, it will, in most
kingdoms, fall to the sovereigns. Napoleon used to
say, that if he were king of England, he would also
be Archbishop of Canterbury. It is the instinct of
power.
Of all centralisation this is the worst. We see
its consequences in Russia. The little resistance
to power that is made in Catholic countries is made
by the clergy. They make it, because their allegiance
is to the Pope. Monseigneur Dupanloup and M. de
Montalembert brave the temporal authority, because
they acknowledge the spiritual one. Transfer the
allegiance of the clergy to an emperor or to a king,
and they will become slaves, and rivet the chains of
their fellow-subjects. On the other hand, if the
Pope, deprived of his territory, were to retain his
influence, he would have much more power than he
has now, and be much less fit to exercise it. He will
have much more power, because it will be uncontrolled.
The temporal power of the Pope is necessary in two
opposite ways. It gives him independence, and it




46


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


limits that independence. It gives him independence,
because he ceases to be a subject. It limits that
independence, because his interests as a temporal
prince are a security for his moderation as a spiritual
one. It gives his fellow sovereigns a hold on
him.
You have broken with him: you give him no
help: you have not even direct diplomatic relations
with him. And look at the consequences. He thwarts
all your policy in Ireland; he opposes your united
education; he sends you firebrands for bishops, and
keeps the majority of your Irish subjects in a state of
chronic disaffection. What keeps the Cure of Ain order? That he depends on the Municipality for
his presbytere, on the parishioners for his casuel, on
the Prefect for the repairs of his church, on the
IJinistre des Cultes for his promotion, and on the
State for his salary.  The catholic sovereigns of
Europe are the municipality of the Pope, he not
only fears their power, but respects their opinion,
he is proud to think himself one of them. Himself
an administrator and a politician, he sympathises with
them. He knows their wants, and understands their
arguments. Deprive him of these temporal interests
and of this temporal experience, and he becomes a
monk: that is to say, a superstitious ascetic. How did
the Pope employ himself at Gaeta? In defining the
Immaculate Conception.   It is quite true that the
temporal power of the Pope is inconsistent with the
good government of the Roman people. As I have




1860.]  MANNERS OF THE NOUVEAUX RICHES.


47


already said, the union in one hand of spiritual and
temporal power is the worst of despotisms. But I
think that I have shown that in order to keep those
powers separate elsewhere, they must be united in
Rome.    I am   sorry for the Roman people, but I
prefer the interests of the Catholic world to those of
the Roman people,-the interests of two hundred
millions to those of three millions.
September 16th, Les Bruyeres.-We spent to-day
at Les Bruyeres, the pretty villa of M. de Circourt,*
in the forest of La Celle, between Versailles and
St. Germains.    Before  dinner we     went over the
chateau of La Celle, once the country retreat of the
monks of St. Germains, afterwards the residence of
Madame de Pompadour, and now         inhabited by the
widow of an eminent tobacconist.     She is still handsome, and her manners are agreeable.
The Circourts gave an amusing account of the
society of nouveaux    riches.  The P ---    s used to
send invitations to their neighbours, and to Parisians
whom they supposed to be desirable guests.       Some
came, some sent excuses, and some did not answer at
* Count Adolphe de Circourt was a member of the Orleanist
party. Under the administration of Tocqueville, in 1849, he was
appointed ambassador at the court of Berlin. He is a man of
extraordinary information and vivacity. His wife, who died in
1863, was also a brilliant converser, and had one of the most
agreeable salons in Paris. M. de Circourt has long given up public
affairs.-ED.
VOL. I.




48


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


all. But as the P    s did not know the faces of
their friends, when the company came they often
could not tell who had accepted and who had refused;
so that they were continually making mistakes, and
dropping those who were ready to come to them,
and importuning those who had resolved to keep
away.
The park is not extensive, but is well situated
on the slope of a hill, and finely wooded. The
house is of the Louis XIV. age-a centre with two
pavilions. The principal rooms are, as is usual in
French chateaux, passage-rooms with double lights.
Byron's Giaour, and a portrait of Mme. P —  when
young, both by Scheffer, are the best pictures.
On a neighbouring hill we saw Beaux Regards,
the chateau of Mrs. Trelawny, the Marquise de Beaux
Regards,* with the national flag flying over it, to the
great scandal of the neighbours.
At dinner we met an intelligent Russian, M.
Tchihatchef. We talked of Russia.
Tchihatchef.-She is busied about her own social
revolution; but even if it were convenient to her to
take an active part in international affairs, I doubt
whether she would wish to do so. Since the beginning of the war, which was the folly of a proud,
obstinate old man, she has had to complain of everybody. The peace of 1856 imposed on her restrictions


* Mrs. Howard, formerly Louis Napoleon's mistress.-ED.




1860.]


LOUIS NAPOLEON IS IMPLACABLE.


49


to which she cannot permanently submit. She hates
England and France as open enemies; she hates
much more bitterly Austria as a faithless friend.
She hates Louis Napoleon for having deceived her,
for having pretended friendship, and deserted her
when she asked for a congress. She cannot attack
Austria, lest an Hungarian or Gallican insurrection
should extend to Poland. She cannot attack Piedmont, or even Garibaldi, because that would be assisting Austria. She will look on and enjoy the quarrels
of her enemies.
Circourt.-Our Emperor is nearly in the same
position. He, too, hates everybody.
Senior.-What is his quarrel with Spain?
Circourt.-It has several motives. One is, that
Queen Isabella is a Bourbon; another, that she rejected his alliance; and a third, and the most important, that she declined a visit from the Empress.
'I never,' she said, ' will receive as Empress a woman
whom I refused to make one of my ladies-in-waiting.'
So you see that when the Emperor and Empress
landed at Mahon they found that the Queen had left
it the same morning. Louis Napoleon is as implacable as he is grateful. He never forgets a kindness or an offence.
I heard a curious anecdote respecting the Baden
conferences. A  friend of mine, immediately after
Louis Napoleon's departure, went over the house
which he had occupied. Behind the sofa on which he
used to sit, and therefore in face of all those who
VOL. I.                             E




50


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


conversed with him, was a closet containing a bed, a
chair, and a writing-table. A large hole had been
cut in the wall between this closet and the sofa, and
concealed by being papered over. A person in the
closet could hear all that was said near the sofa.
There can be no doubt that a stenographer was kept
there by the Emperor night and day, to record all
that passed.
I asked Mme. de Circourt if she had heard lately
from Cavour.
line. de Circourt.-About ten days ago I received
a letter from  him, in which he announced his intention to resign.  ' Victor Emanuel,' he said, 'is going
too fast for me. I do not like to play double or quits
when my country is one of the stakes.'
Tchihatchef.-I do not wonder that Cavour fears
to be driven into another war with Austria.       The
Piedmontese army was bad at its best.        Benedec
beat it easily at Solferino; the Savoy brigade alone
resisted him; and now, filled as it is with revolutionary foreigners, it is worth nothing.
September 17th, 1860, He'ry, Cher.-We reached
this place, the chateau of M. Duvergier de Hauranne,*
* M. Duvergier de Hauranne was early initiated into political
life. He was co-editor of the Globe with Guizot and R6musat from
1824. In 1831 he was elected a deputy, and he supported by every
means in his power the Liberal party in the Chamber. He was a
warm adherent of Thiers in 1840, and an opponent of Guizot when




1860.]


SOLOGNE AND BERRI.


51


this evening.*    Our road, after quitting Orleans, lay
through the Sologne,t one of the parts of France in
which the population decreases. It consists of extensive plains of sand, or coarse gravel, covering a clay
subsoil.   The water arrested     by  the   clay  spreads
itself into marshes and shallow lakes, or is drained
by straight cuts. The thin soil is covered chiefly by
brushwood, birch, fir, or dwarf heath or rushy pasture.
To the south-west of the Sologne is Berri, less
flat, and with a better soil and climate, but still low
in wealth and population. The forests are extensive,
and contain, as those of the Sologne do, wild deer,
wild swine, and even wolves.
These are the advantages that made Sologne and
Berri popular three hundred years ago among the
the latter, on his return from the post of ambassador in London,
became Prime Minister, and encouraged the reactionary policy of
the King. Mi. Duvergier was one of the chief promoters of the
political banquets which had a great share in overturning Louis
Philippe. After the revolution he was elected member of the
Constituent Assembly, and afterwards of the Corps L6gislatif; and
on the 2nd December, 1851, he was imprisoned, with the other
victims of despotism, until the 9th January, 1852. Since that
time he has given up politics, and has been chiefly engaged in
writing a parliamentary history of France.-ED.
* The conversations at H6ry, except a small portion, which
could not be copied in time, were read and corrected by M. Duvergier.-N. W. SENIOR.
t All this country has been celebrated and idealised in the
writings of George Sand.-ED.




52


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


French aristocracy. They were vast hunting grounds.
When the seigneurs deserted the provinces for Paris and
Versailles, their great chateaux fell into ruin. Forests
were cut for sale, and not replanted. Drainage was
neglected, the country became unhealthy, and the
population sank so low that it does not amount to
more than three hundred persons to the square mile,
about half the average of France. This has preserved it from the morcellement of the Revolution.
The great estates were not sold, because the land
was not worth having in small portions, and the
purchasers of confiscated property have not capital
enough to cultivate, much less to reclaim, it on a
great scale. The old proprietors remained in their
houses, or returned to them when the emigres were
recalled. The estates, therefore, and the farms, are very
large, but they are ill cultivated.  The metayer system
is common, perhaps more common than fermage.
Towards the east of Berri, on the banks of the
Loire, are M. Duvergier's chateau and park.
The park is large, the largest that I have seen in
France. It is about three miles round, and well
wooded. The house is a Louis XIII. chateau, a
centre with two wings. The principal rooms are
passage-rooms, and fill the whole of the centre, looking east and west.
As at Guizot's, the books spread over the house,
filling three libraries, and extending in double rows
into the passages. The English library, taken alone,
is considerable.




1860.]


GENERAL CHANGARNIER.


53


We found here Gen. Changarnier,* Odillon Barrot,f
* Born in 1793, General Changarnier first distinguished himself in 1823, in the Spanish war. In 1830 he became an officer of
the Royal Guard; but he was soon afterwards sent to Algeria,
where he justified a rapid rise in his profession by a series of
brilliant exploits. In 1847 he was appointed general-in-chief of
the French army in Africa. When, a year later, Cavaignac was
appointed governor and general-in-chief of Algiers, Changarnier
returned to Paris, set himself at the head of the forces assembled
by the Party of Order, and succeeded in putting down the insurgents in April 1848.   He continued in command of the
National Guard, and on two occasions commanded all the troops
in Paris. He supported successively the authority of Cavaignac
and of Louis Napoleon, until he saw that the rule of the latter
was degenerating into despotism. Perceiving that he could not
use Changarnier as a tool, Louis Napoleon deprived him of his
functions, and on the 2nd December, 1851, imprisoned him. For
some years afterwards he lived in exile at Malines, and had not
long returned to his native land when we met him at Hery.
He lived to a great age, and in August 1870, forgetting the
wrongs he had suffered at the Emperor's hands, put his sword at
the disposal of Louis Napoleon. He was shut up in Metz with
Marshal Bazaine, and took an active part in the defence of that
fortress. On October 24th, he was granted an interview with
Prince Frederick Charles, in which he endeavoured to obtain the
free departure of Bazaine's army to Algeria.  It was refused; the
town capitulated on the 27th and Changarnier was taken prisoner.
He was liberated on parole, and retired to Brussels. After the
adjustment of the terms of peace, he returned to France (1871),
was elected a member of the Assembly, and gave his constant
support to the Government of M. Thiers, whom he greatly assisted
with his advice with regard to the re-organization of the army.
In person he was tall and distinguished, very polite to ladies, and
extremely well dressed. He was an interesting converser, but he
spoke indistinctly, and when at a loss for words finished his
sentences with gestures. He died in 1877.-ED.
t Odillon Barrot, born in 1791, inherited liberal principles
from his father. He was appointed avocat duz Roi in 1814; but on




54


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Lanjuinais," M. and Mme. Target,t and two or three
other persons whose names I have not discovered.
finding the principles of the Restoration were not as liberal as he
expected, he joined the National party, and in 1830 took an
active part in promoting the revolution of July. He was named
prefect of the Seine under Louis Philippe. The new monarchy
was far from answering his expectations, and in a few months he
was again in opposition. He offered himself as a liberal candidate
to the Department de l'Eure, and spoke in the Chamber in which
he was destined to obtain such brilliant triumphs for the first time
at the age of forty, in answer to Guizot. He became one of the
most influential members of the Cote Gauche, but he would not
allow himself to drift into Republicanism. He advocated the
cause of a liberal constitutional monarchy, and spoke always in
defence of any liberties which he thought threatened by the abuse
of power. In 1840 he joined M. Thiers against Guizot, and in the
struggle of principles which followed he was called, 'if not the
chief, the standard-bearer, of the party,' and the 'hero of the
banquets.' Believing thoroughly in the power of the party to
effect the reforms which he desired, the revolution of February
took him by surprise. His own account of the part he played
in it will be found a few pages hence.
Barrot received the portfolio of Justice and the presidency of
the Council in Louis Napoleon's first selection of ministers; but
he was far too liberal for the President, and was one of the first
to be dismissed. Again in opposition, he agitated, as formerly, for
the reforms which he deemed expedient, and again without success:
for the coup d'etat, in 1851, proved the death-blow to his political
life. He was tall, strong, and rosy, and looked more like a substantial farmer than a politician. His manner was frank and
genial, and he was a delightful converser. He died in 1873.-ED.
* Son of the well-known member of the Convention during the
First Empire. He was a deputy in the reign of Louis Philippe,
and joined the party of the Left. He was again elected as deputy
in 1848, and accepted the portfolio of Agriculture and Commerce in
the ministry of M. Dufaure. After the coup d'etat he retired from
public life. He died some years ago.-ED.
t M. Target, M. Duvergier's son-in-law, was French minister




1860.]    THE EMPIRE SUSTAINED BY WAR.        55
Duvergier asked me what were A. B. C.'s expectations.
Senior.-Warlike.  He thinks that what is going
on is concerted between the Emperor and Cavour,
and that Sardinia is to be allowed to annex all Italy,
in order to give France a right to seize the Rhine as
a counterpoise.
Duvergier.-I do not believe that Louis Napoleon
has any such projects.  I believe that he lives au
jour le jour, thinking of politics only among the
intervals of pleasure, and changing his plans every
morning after he has read the papers.  The interest
of France, as well as of Europe, is to keep him
at peace. War will please our vanity if successful,
rouse our anti-national hatreds if it fail, and in
either event distract our attention. It is only in
peace that we think of ourselves, that we feel
our degradation, that we discuss the characters of
the wretches to whom we are sold, that we resolve to
shake off this despotism of rogues and pimps. The
Napoleonic throne cannot stand five years of peace.
Senior.-I hope that your opinions are correct;
but if they are, is it not to be supposed that he shares
them?
Duvergier.-If you draw round him a sufficiently
strong cordon-such a cordon as Prussia, Austria,
Holland, Belgium, and England can furnish-he will
not attempt to break through. He dreads hostile


at the Hague in 1877, when the Duc de Broglie was Prime
Minister.-ED.




56


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


coalitions. His condition of existence is successful
war. It is your business to make that impossible.
I know that this is frightfully expensive; but it is
less expensive than  actual war.   It retards the
accumulation of capital, but it does not destroy
existing capital, it does not interfere with commerce;
and though a slow and expensive policy, I am convinced that it will be a successful one.
Senior.-You say that the throne cannot stand
five years of peace. How is it to be overturned?
Duvergier.-That is a question which I cannot
answer. I foresee the event: I do not foresee the
means. The most probable one is an emeute.
September 18th.-In the drawing-room   hangs a
portrait of Madame de Maintenon. We were looking
at it before breakfast this morning, and the conversation passed to the chateau which bears her
name.
Odillon Barrot.-I once spent a long day in its
neighbourhood, but I was too busy to visit it. It
was when I was escorting Charles X. to Cherbourg
in 1830. He had established himself at Rambouillet
with a considerable force, and Marshal Maison and
I were sent by Louis Philippe to persuade him to
retire. A mob grotesquely armed accompanied us.
As we approached the chateau, and saw the numbers
of the infantry, cavalry, and artillery, that surrounded
it, we felt that if the troops were faithful there was
the nucleus of a civil war.




1860.]


DEPARTURE OF CHARLES X.


57


The King received us sulkily.
'What do you want?' he asked.    'I have sent
my orders to the Chambers; I have sacrificed myself,
and reserved only the rights of my grandson.'
'We are grieved,' we answered, 'to have to say to
your Majesty that further sacrifice is necessary. We
believe that your Majesty's continued residence in
France is unadvisable.'
'Retirez-vous,' he replied; 'I will consider what
answer is to be given to you.'
As we were going he called back Maison.
'You are a soldier,' he said; 'you will tell
me the truth. How many people have you with
you?'
'Sixty thousand,' replied Maison.
There were about ten thousand.
In about an hour he recalled us.
'I will retire to the coast,' he said.
'It will be our duty,' we answered, 'to accompany your Majesty.'
'Why so?' he replied. 'The police will protect me.'
' The police,' we answered, ' is powerless. While
we are with your Majesty there is no danger; but
we cannot answer for the consequences if we leave
you.
He submitted, and we began our long, slow,
anxious journey to Cherbourg.
Charles X. soon saw the necessity for our presence. In all the towns, and even in the villages,




.58


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


the populace turned   out, shouting, 'A  bas les
ministres! A bas les ordonnances! Turn Polignac
out of the carriages. We know that he is in one of
them.'
Senior.-Would not the King have been protected if he had taken a guard with him?
Barrot.-The guard would scarcely have been
faithful. It might have saved him from being torn
to pieces; but if the people had insisted on treating
him as they did his brother at Varennes, and on
forcing him back to Paris, the guard would not have
prevented them.
Maison was the general who received Louis XVIII.
at Dover in   1814.   His was the hand which
Louis XVIII. grasped to assist him as he landed.
His hand was the last which Charles X. touched
as he embarked.
Charles X. had made him marshal. He said at
parting that he trusted that the King would believe
that his only motive for accepting the office of
escorting him had been the hope of being useful to
his Majesty.
' Ne parlons pas de qa,' answered the King.
I slept at St. L6 on my return. Polignac was
in the prison.  He sent for me.  I never saw so
pitiable a countenance. It was that of an old child.
It had neither dignity nor intelligence, nor even the
grace which when he was all powerful used to be
ascribed to him.
'I am detained here,' he said, 'most illegally. I




1860.]


THE 29TH JANUARY, 1849.


59


cannot be reproached with the shadow of an offence.
I merely did my duty. I merely obeyed the King's
orders. What could I do but sign the ordonnances
when I received the King's express positive commands?'
'If,' I replied, ' you knew what is the feeling of
the people outside, you would rejoice that the prisondoor is between you and them. As for your offence,
I should deceive you if I did not warn you that the
tribunals will have to decide on it. I recommend
you to think of your defence.'
'Will you defend me, M. Barrot?' he asked.
'I cannot,' I answered, 'for I am a public functionary. What do you think of Berryer?'
'Oh, no,' he replied, 'not Berryer.'
'Then,' I said, 'I recommend to you Martignac.'
He applied to Martignac, who conducted his
defence admirably.
M. Barrot and M. Target went out to shoot.
Duvergier, Changarnier, and I took a long walk.
' Pray tell me,' I said to Changarnier, ' the real
story of the 29th of January, 1849. Was the armed
force that on that morning surrounded the Assembly
collected by the Garde Mobile or by the President?
Was it an attempt at a rouge insurrection, or an
attempt at a coup d'etat? '
Changarnier.-It was something of all of them.
The Garde Mobile and the Garde Republicaine,




60


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Caussidiere's troops, were the active agents. They
intended a rouge revolution. The President knew
of their plans, wished them to begin, and intended to
turn their attempt into a coup d'etat.
On the morning of the 28th, going to the Elysee,
I found the court full of the Garde Mobile. I asked
them what they wanted.
' We want,' they said, 'to see the President. We
are told that we are to be disbanded. We are sentinels
appointed by the Republic. We will not allow ourselves to be driven from our posts.'
'It is quite true,' I said to them, 'that some of
you who are not fit for service are to be discharged,
and that the rest are to be subjected to a discipline
which you appear, many of you, to want. But you
have no business here. Go home to your quarters.
I am going to the President, and I will tell him what
you say.'
There was much excitement. Some cried, A bas
Changarnier!' others seemed inclined to threaten
violence. I left them in the court, and in about an
hour they dispersed.
The President confessed to me that he had
allowed them to enter the court, and that he intended
to see one or two of them. I pointed out to him the
impropriety of his doing so, and he acquiesced. I
saw that something serious was intended; and when
I got home I sent orders to the corps d'armee near
Paris, and ordered the regiments and the officers
on whom I could best depend to come immediately




1860.]  CHANGARNIER AND THE PRESIDENT.


61


to Paris, and to rendezvous in the Place de la
Concorde, the Quai d'Orsay, and the Place des
Invalides.
The next morning the Garde Mobile and the
Garde Republicaine met in great numbers near the
Palais de l'Assemblee and on the Quai d'Orsay, and,
finding the troops there, they remained quiet, but
without dispersing.
I received a summons to a meeting of the ministers at ten.   Soon after we had    assembled the
President came in, and took his seat. After a
few minutes' silence he addressed us in his slow,
soft voice:
'Gentlemen,' he said, 'you see that the constitution is impracticable. I have something to propose
as a substitute for it.'
He took a paper from his pocket, and began to
read it.
He was interrupted by Passy, the Minister of
Finance, who said:
' You seem to be preparing a coup d'etat. Do you
not know that another revolution will destroy our
finances, and undo all the good that three years of
peace have done?'
'Do you talk to me,' said the President, 'of your
miserable finances, quand je joue ma tete? '
'Parbleu!' said Rulliere, the Minister of War,
'ce n'est pas seulement votre tete que vous jouez, mais
toutes les notres.'
Barrot said a few words, tres dignement, and the




62


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


President put the paper unread into his pocket, and
left us.
We did not wish for an impeachment which might
have brought on another revolution; so we resolved
to say nothing about the incident.
The Garde Mobile and the Garde Republicaine
gradually dispersed, and I sent the troops home
to their quarters, with an order to be ready if I
wanted them.
In the afternoon the President left the Elysee
on horseback, and rode slowly along the Rue Faubourg St. Honore as far as the Rue Royale. He was
coldly received, saw that the insurrectionary army
had left the Quai d'Orsay, and turned suddenly back
to the Elysee.
Senior.-Do you think that he intended on that
occasion to make an attempt?
Changarnier.-I think that he intended to feel
the public pulse. If he had found a considerable
number of the Garde Mobile and the Garde Republicaine collected, and had been well acclame by them
and by the crowd, he might have ridden on to the
Tuileries, have been proclaimed Emperor by the mob,
and have thanked them from the balcony.
Senior.-Do you know the contents of that paper?
Changarnier.-He showed it to me afterwards.
It resembled his proclamation of the deux Decembre:
universal suffrage re-established, the existing constitution abolished, and the people were to say how
and by whom a new one was to be created.




1860.]


THE PRESIDENT S RIDE.


63


I never-at least not until the end of 1851 -could persuade him that I did not intend to make
him Emperor. Persigny persecuted me with offers.
Duvergier.-Persigny persecuted everybody. As
he has little tact, and at that time knew nothing
of the influential persons in Paris, he used to make
ludicrous blunders. He, and Benoist d'Azy, and Jules
de Lasteyrie were together.
'You know,' he said to them, ' that this government cannot last. Why not help to create the one
which is to succeed it? Money,' he added, turning
to Benoist d'Azy,-' and rank,' turning to Lasteyrie,
' will be showered on those who show themselves its
early friends.'
'You have mistaken your men,' answered
Lasteyrie. 'Benoist is as rich as Crcesus: I am a
marquis, and I have not a farthing.'
Changarnier.-Once, as I was leaving his cabinet,
I took the wrong door. ' When this house is your
own,' he said to me, 'you will know it better.'
On the 13th of June, 1849, after the attempt of
Ledru Rollin and Louis Blanc and the other fools
who met at the Conservatoire, and had to escape
by the window-had been defeated, I asked him
to ride with me along the Boulevards. I thought
that after an event which had excited some alarm
his appearance with me in public might be useful.
We had six aides-de-camp with us, four of his, two
of mine. We were well received till we came to the
Porte St. Denys. There we found groups of sinister



64


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


looking people, who cried, ' Vive la Republique! and
seemed inclined to ill-treat us. Never in my life did
I see more degraded or more ferocious faces.
The President was very much affected. He could
scarcely sit his horse.  His aides-de-camp said to
mine, ' Mais on a mene le Prince ici, pour le faire
egorger.'
I took some of the cross streets, which led us
to the Quais, the Place Vendome, and thence to the
Rue Castiglione. As we approached the end of the
Rue Castiglione, and saw   the Tuileries, the President's agitation increased. He is always sallow,
but he was then livid. I turned to the right, and
took him through the Place de la Concorde back
to the Elysee. There I took leave of him at the
door. During the whole ride, which lasted five hours,
for we rode slowly, and even when we parted, he
was absolutely silent.
The next day he said to one of my aides-de-camp,
'Votre general m'a fait tourner tres court pres des
Tuileries.' I have not the slightest doubt that he
believed that when I sent to him I intended to carry
him to the Tuileries, and to proclaim him Emperor.
Senior.-Could it have been done?
Changarnier.-With the utmost ease. The Assemblee Constituante had become unpopular. It was
accused of illegally prolonging its reign from ambition or from avarice. The twenty-five francs* a-day,


* Each member received twenty-five francs a-day.-ED.




1860.] LOUIS NAPOLEON UNPOPULAR IN 1850.


65


which it had voted to itself, was a constant grievance.
The Parisian mob, like all other mobs, is always
ready to impute the vilest motives to public servants.
The army and the National Guard were under my
command. The people might have been conciliated
by the promise of new elections and universal suffrage. I do not believe that there would have been
any serious opposition.
Duvergier.-He ought to have been 'mis en accusation,' and arrested after the Satory reviews, in
1850. He was taken in flagrant delit. There was
no doubt that he had suggested the treasonable cry of
' Iive l'Emvperleur!' that he had rewarded those who
utered it, and punished those who refused. There
were other still stronger proofs of his conspiracy
against the Republic. The Permanent Committee of
the Assembly had the evidence in its own hands. It
possessed all the rights of the Assembly. It ought to
have exercised the least questionable of all rights-the
right of self-defence.
Senior. —I have no doubt that that would have
been right, if it had been practicable.
Changarnier.-Not only practicable, but easy.
The Legislative Assembly was still popular. Louis
Napoleon had not become so. He depended on nothing but his name. The Republican party, which
always applies the torch to our explosions, was
deeply irritated and alarmed by his despotic pretensions.
If the Assembly had ordered his arrest, I could have
taken him to Vincennes with a corporal's guard. I
VOL. I.                             F




66


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


was among those who were anxious that it should be
done.
Duvergier.-Those who opposed the attack on the
part of the Assembly-if a movement really defensive
can be called an attack-of whom the Duc de Broglie
was the chief, warned us not to drive him to extremities.  'Even a timid beast,' they said, 'will
fight, and fight formidably, s'il est accule dans un
coin.' They forgot that he was accule by the approach of the term of his Presidentship. The framers
of our absurd Constitution dismissed him from  the
Elysee to a debtors' prison.
A year later resistance had become almost impossible.
His Socialism and his profusion had made him
popular with the lower classes in Paris. The Assembly had become unpopular with them. It was
accused of aristocracy,-it had restricted the suffrage.
It was believed by them to be conspiring to bring
back the Bourbons. In the provinces the state of
feeling was different. There, the expectation of a
Rouge revolution had made Louis Napoleon popular
among all classes,-with the higher, as their protector
against the Rouges; with the lower, as their protector
against the Bourgeoisie.
In 1851, the Bourgeoisie of Paris behaved admirably: if the working classes had supported them, as
they did in 1830, the army, which wavered much at
the beginning, would have joined them, and all would
have been saved. But the ouvriers almost every



1860.] CAVAIGNAC SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT. 67


where answered, 'We will not fight for the Assembly,
we will not fight for the vingt-cinq francs.'
'You shall see,' said Baudin, one of the Montagne
deputies,' how the vingt-cinq francs fight for themselves.' He went behind a barricade and was shot.
It was on the Bourgeoisie, therefore, that the
massacres of the 5th of December fell. The orders
given to the soldiers were to fire at all the windows,
and down all the streets. The objects were, first, to
terrify, and, secondly, to create a feud between the
soldiers and the people of Paris. Louis Napoleon
succeeded in both.
Senior.-I walked down the Boulevards on the
21st of December, 1851. There was not a single
house, from the Place de la Bastile to the Boulevard
des Italiens which was not covered with the marks of
balls.  The soldiers must have fired indiscriminately
at every window.
A shower drove us into a summer-house.
We talked of the Presidential election.
Duvergier.-Cavaignac was the proper man. He
would have been sincere. Republican government
would have had a fair trial.
Senior. —It was to prevent that that Louis Napoleon was elected. He was elected for the express
purpose of destroying the Republic.
Duvergier. -Without doubt many votes were
given to him as the enemy of the Republic. When I
visited this department, before my election in 1849,




68


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


many of the farmers and peasants, especially the
women, said to me, ' We are tired of these Assemblies.
11 nous faut un maitre.'
Senior.- Thiers told me that one of his own
motives for voting against Cavaignac was his revolutionary foreign policy,-that he would not engage to
withdraw his support from the party in Piedmont,
which was opposed to Monarchy, and which in fact
betrayed the royal troops in the battle of Novara.
Chanyarnier. —I do not know what was Cavaignac's
policy in Italy. He opposed the Revolutionary, and
the Unionist party in Germany.   He said that he
would use every means by diplomacy, and if necessary
by war, to prevent the consolidation of Germany into
one State.
While we were endeavouring to agree on a candidate, Thiers came to me and said,' Mignet is returned
from a tour in the provinces. He says that my name
is on the lips of everyone. If I should stand for the
Presidentship, can I hope for your support?'
'Consult Mole,' I answered; 'if he will support
you, I will.'
About the same time-I am not sure whether before or after-Mole asked for my support. 'Consult
Thiers,' I answered. 'If he will vote for you, I will.'
I heard no more on that subject from either of
them.
We talked after dinner of the battle of Solferino.
Changarnier.-There was no generalship on either




1860.]


BATTLE OF SOLFERINO.


69


side. We had excellent regimental officers and generals
of division, but there was no commander. The Austrians
twice surprised us-before the battle and after it.
They crossed the Mincio and established themselves
within three miles of us, without our suspecting their
proximity. They crossed it again, after the battle,
without our knowing what they were doing. Though
defeated they did not leave behind, on their retreat, a
prisoner or a gun, except some heavy artillery from
Verona, which were in position and could not be
drawn away.
Louis Napoleon did not ask for the armistice an
hour too soon. They might have attacked us with a
fair chance of success, and we could do little against
them.
Duvergier.-The young Emperor is scarcely fit to
follow  Metternich's dying  advice: -' If you are
beaten before Milan,-do not yield. If you are beaten
before Verona,-do not yield. If you are driven
across the Isonzo,-do not yield. If you are driven
across the Brenner,-do not yield. If the French are
in Verona,-do not yield.'
The conversation passed to French affairs.
Senior.-What was the impression produced by
Louis Napoleon's letters to Persigny?
Duvergier.-Deplorable.  We thought it humiliating to hinm and humiliating to us.
One of the qualities which render him dangerous,
is his power of sacrificing his vanity to his interest.




70


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


He wanted to please, or at least to deceive, the
English, so he wrote to you a letter of apology, protestation, and excuse. If you had asked him to stand
in a white sheet in Notre Dame, he would have done
it. In fact he has done it, for that letter is the most
penitential of sheets.
Thursday, September 20th.-We generally meet
in M. Duvergier's study, about ten, and stay there
till breakfast time, at half-past eleven.
We talked this morning of 1848.
Duveryier.-Louis Philippe and Guizot differ as
to their mode of separation on the 22nd. Guizot
says the King would not give him   carte-blanche.
The King affirmed that Guizot said that there were
two things, neither of which he could do. He could
not grant reform, nor could he fire on the National
Guard. The King maintained, therefore, that there
could be no question about giving carte-blanche to a
man obstinately opposed to two lines of action, one of
which must necessarily be adopted. I do not think,
however, that the retirement of Guizot, or the indecision of Mole, were the main causes of the disaster.
The first mistake made by the King, was, the
uniting in the same cabinet Barrot and Bugeaud.
Barrot personified concession, Bugeaud resistance.
They neutralised one another. The liberals did not
believe in Barrot, coupled as he was with Bugeaud.
The conservatives had no faith in Bugeaud, controlled, as they supposed him to be, by Barrot.




1860.]


THE 24TH FEBRUARY, 1848.


71


Senior.- Lavergne showed me a letter from
Bugeaud,* in which he imputes the failure of the
resistance to orders given to him by the new ministers.
Duvergier.-I have seen that letter. It is full, not
of mistakes, but of absolute falsehoods,-of statements
which are pure inventions by Bugeaud, in the hope
of assisting his candidature for the Presidentship.
We never gave an order. We never had the power
to do so.
Our ministry was an embryo, which, after about
three hours of gestation, expired.
We all believed, or at least hoped, that the emeute
would be stopped by the announcement of the formation of a new ministry of liberals and reformers; and
that until the result of that announcement was known,
it was not advisable to act offensively. But no express order to that effect was given. It was the
general feeling, in which Bugeaud joined. His story,
therefore, that his hands were tied by an order from
the ministry to suspend operations and to send the
troops to their quarters, is totally unfounded.
Thiers received his commission to form a ministry
at about 2 a.m. on the 24th of February.  He spent
what remained of the night in selecting colleagues
and obtaining their consent.
Lamoriciere was to be his Minister of War,
* See Conversations with Thiers, Guizot, &c., vol. i., for this
letter.-ED.




72


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Barrot of the Interior, Rdmusat of Justice, and I of
Finance. We met at his house at about half-past
seven on the morning of the 24th of February.
Thiers was shaving with the conscientiousness
which, as you have often attended his levee, must be
familiar to you.
A note from Bugeaud was brought to him. As
his hands were employed about his chin and his
razor, he told the servant to lay it on the
table.
' It may be important,' I said: 'I wish you would
leave that beard of yours and read it.'
As he delayed, I took it and opened it. It contained a few lines, in which Bugeaud complained of
the want of ammunition; he had, he said, only ten
cartridges per man: and three pages, in which he told
Thiers the history of a M. Magne, and begged that he
might be kept in his place.
'I knew,' said Thiers, 'that it would contain des
betises, which was why I did not want to read it before you.'
We were to be at the Tuileries at nine. We arrived there at half-past eight. The King was still in
his bed-chamber. After some delay, he received us
in his cabinet.
Thiers, as provisional Premier, since he had been
desired to form a ministry, spoke for us.
' It is necessary,' he said, ' that the outline of the
new administration should be clearly defined.'
'Well,' said the King, avec un air, comme il me




1860.] HESITATION OF THIERS AND DUVERGIER.  73


paraissait, un peu goguenard, 'You have reform.
What can you wish for more?'
'Your Majesty is aware,' answered Thiers, 'that
we are a minority. With the assistance of your
Majesty's friends in the Chambers, we might carry
reform, but we should be in a minority on all other
questions. On such conditions we can scarcely carry
on the Government. We must ask your Majesty for a
dissolution.'
' Never!' said the King; 'a reform you shall have,
but no dissolution' And he went back into a room
behind his cabinet and shut the door in Thiers' face.
I am very short-sighted, and could not see who were
in that room; but some of my companions distinguished there the Queen and Guizot.
We now debated what was to be done. The
Guizot ministry had resigned. Mole's attempt to form
a ministry had failed.  We had accepted, but were
not nominated; and now the condition which we
thought with truth essential to our Government was
refused. It was between eight and nine o'clock. We
could hear the tumult of the e'meute increasing and
approaching.
In any ordinary times, we should have taken our
hats and returned to our breakfasts. But if we did
so, the only hope of averting.a sanguinary struggle
was abandoned; for nothing but either force, or the
announcement of a reforming ministry, could stop the
emeute.
We could ask neither help nor advice from the




74


CONVERSATIONS.


[ 1860.


King, for he had left us, and was probably then
listening to other counsellors. So we resolved to
consider ourselves a ministry, and to issue a manifesto
declaring that the King had formed a liberal ministry
for the express purpose of proposing and carrying
electoral reform. Some time was spent in drawing it
up,-more in getting it printed. We had to use the
press of the Journal des De'bats. Thiers and Barrot
then proposed to go out to the people, explain to them
what had happened, and distribute the manifesto.
But we could not spare Thiers, so Barrot went alone.
He never returned.
The commander of the National Guard was not to
be found.  It was proposed that Lamoriciere, though
Minister of War, should also take the command, but
be under orders for the present of Bugeaud. This
scheme was adopted.
In the meantime the news became worse and
worse.  We heard that the ammunition from Vincennes, carried through the Faubourg St. Antoine,
instead of by the river, had fallen into the hands
of the insurgents, that the name of Thiers was ill
received by the people, and that that of Bugeaud was
execrated.
11 etait a-peu-pres midi et demie, et les choses allaient
fort mal, quand M. Cremieux demanda a etre introduit
aupres du Roi.   On le fit entrer, et je le vois encore,
au-devant du Roi immobile sur son fauteuil, faisant une
harangue a la fois familiere et respectueuse, mais debitee
d'un ton singulier.  'Sire,' lui dit-il, 'la revolution




1860.]     ABDICATION OF LOUIS PHILIPPE.        75
marche a grands pas, et, je regrette de le dire, le nom
de M. Thiers n'est pas suffisant pour l'arreter: mais si
Votre Majeste consentait a nommer M. Odillon Barrot
president du Conseil, je crois pouvoir repondre de tout.'
Le Roi alors se retourna vers Thiers, qui etait c
son cote, et d'une voix assez bienveillante, ' Eh bien,
mon cher ministre,' lui dit-il, 'vous entendez, vous voila
a votre tour impopulaire, que me conseillez-vous? '
' Sans contredit, Sire,' lui re'pondit Thiers, 'de
nommer /. Odillon Barrot president du Conseil.'
An ordinance naming Barrot President of the
Council was drawn up. General Trezel, one of the
former ministers, was sent for; it was signed by the
King, and countersigned by Trezel.  So that Barrot
became legally minister; and this was in fact the
only appointment completed.
The King was then advised to go down into the
Carousel and review the National Guards, who were
assembled there.  He was received by the cry of
La Reforme! La Reforme!'
' Mais vous avez la Reforme,' he answered. ' Barrot
est charge de la preparer.'  Still the cries continued.
He left the Carousel and returned to the cabinet.  It
was then the cry of abdication was heard. Bugeaud
says that he protested against it. It is false. He was
not in the room; he was below     with the troops.
The King had lost his presence of mind. He was
deeply grieved and alarmed at the conduct of the
National Guard,-men with       whom   he had been
shaking hands for years.




76


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


He took the cry, 'La Reforme,' as intended to
insult him, and he consented to abdicate.
Such is the history of the 24th of February, as
far as I took part in it.
The real cause of the Revolution was the King's
obstinate resolution to grant no electoral reform. In
the debate on the address in January, 1848, an
amendment was proposed by M. Sallandrouze, recommending the Government to take the initiative in
proposing a moderate reform.
Guizot defended it by a speech, in which he promised that the subject should be examined in that
year, and gave hopes of something being done in the
next year.
One of the King's aides-de-camp, Chabaud-Latour,
whom you must have known in Algiers, went from
the Chamber to the King to announce the defeat of
the amendment.
He heard it with great pleasure, but when
Chabaud-Latour gave him an outline of Guizot's
speech, he broke out against it with indignation.
'Guizot,' he said, 'may have promised a reform,
but I have not. I will never let in the wedge. The
Peers, however, will reject it.'
Chabaud-Latour ventured to suggest some doubts
as to the conduct of the peers. ' Ca m'est egal,' replied the King. ' I will use my veto.'


We had a party at dinner. Among them was the




860.]


FARMING IN THE BERRI.


77


Marquis de Vogue.* He is a large proprietor in Berri,
and has also extensive iron-works.
We talked of the metayer system.
Vogue' —I defend it in such a country as this,-a
country in. which there is little capital, little population, and much land. Of course, I prefer fernaye,
where good fermaye is practicable. If I could get
such a farmer as one of Duvergier's farmers, M. Vaillant, who is now sitting at the other end of the table,
a man with large capital, intelligence, and knowledge,
I should prefer it, but such men are rare hereindeed, everywhere. Here we have, in general, to
chose between fermage by a tenant with little capital,
exploitation by the proprietor himself, and me'tayage.
In the first case, the land is unproductive, yet exhausted; in the second, you must employ a bailiff, on
whom you seldom can depend, or you must personally
superintend these details-a business for which a
gentleman is seldom fit, and which in our large
estates is, in fact, impracticable.  Under the metayer
system you have a tenant whose interest is yours,
who, having studied nothing but agriculture, knows
* M. de Vogu6 entered the army in 1823, served in the African
campaign, and was present at the siege of Algiers. In 1830
he quitted the service rather than swear allegiance to Louis
Philippe, retired to his estates, and took an active part in all
provincial questions. He was elected member of the Constituent
Assembly in 1848, and afterwards of the Legislative Assembly.
After the coup d'etat he once more retired into the country. In
1871 he was elected a member of the National Assembly, and
took his place on the Right.-ED.




78


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


it well, who, what is equally important, knows the
specialities of every field, and who is not above seeing
that the day-labourer works, or above higgling with
purchasers and sellers in the market.
Your English ironmasters hope much from the
treaty; they will be disappointed. We shall reduce
the price of our iron just enough to exclude them.
Senior.-French agriculture, then, will be the
gainer; nothing keeps it down so much as the high
price of iron.
Vogue —The tiller will gain a little, but it will
be very little. A duty of thirty per cent and expenses of carriage, amounting to ten per cent, will
require only a slight reduction of price to exclude
you. And that reduction will be made at the expense of another species of agriculture-that of forests.
You, Emmanuel,* will have to reduce the price of
your wood. You are at the mercy of the ironmasters. The greater part of your forest land is
fit for nothing else. To clear it, and plough it, and
drain it, would cost more than it is worth. We shall
be forced to offer you a lower price and you will be
forced to take it.
After dinner we talked of Talleyrand. I mentioned Tocqueville's high praise of his despatches to
Louis XVIII. from the Congress of Vienna.
* M. Emmanuel Duvergier, now the only son of M. Duvergier
de Hauranne.-ED.




1860.]


CHARACTER OF TALLEYRAND.


79


Duvergier.-I have read them.    The Duc de
Broglie, when Minister of Foreign Affairs, had them
copied, and showed them to me. They are very
good, but scarcely merit Tocqueville's encomiums.
Talleyrand was always able and sometimes energetic. He saved the monarchy in 1814; he almost
ruined it by introducing Fouche* into the cabinet in
1815. He thought that Fouche would be a screen
to himself, a sort of paratonnerre, on whom  the
public hatred against the men of the Revolution and
of the Empire would exhaust itself.  It fell on
Fouche, but it did not stop there; it extended itself
to Talleyrand, and he had to bear not only his own
burden, but Fouche's.
He was too much a man of pleasure, too much a
pococurante. He could work ably, and energetically
for a time, as he did in 1814, but he relapsed into
indolence and indifference, and let things take their
course. The greatest mistake that he made was his
joining in the plot to overthrow the Melbourne
Ministry in 1834.
Senior. —I was not aware that he had anything to
do with it. I always supposed it was a coup de tete
of William IV.
Duvergier.- William IV. was the active agent,
but he had been travaille by a Tory conspiracy for
months before.  They knew that he had turned
round on the Reform question, and was as much


* The first Napoleon's Minister of Police.-ED.




80


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


alarmed by it as he had once been favourable to it.
The Lievens, the Austrian Minister, and the Corps
Diplomatique, thought everything justifiable that
would deliver them  from  Palmerston.  Talleyrand
was unwise enough to join in the plot. It broke
out on Lord Spencer's death, and when the Peel
ministry fell, after its short existence, Talleyrand
had to leave England and never could return.
Friday, September 21st.-The news of Lamoriciere's
defeat arrived this morning, and spread a gloom over
the society.
General Pimoden was a relation and intimate
friend of M. de Vogue. And Lamoriciere himself is
known to almost all the party, and beloved by them.
They feel, too, a national interest in his military
reputation.
Senior.-It can scarcely be injured by the defeat
of newly-raised heterogeneous levies by superior
numbers.
Changarnier.-It does not appear that, at least,
until the Neapolitans had come up, the numbers need
have been superior. Fanti and Cialdini entered the
Roman states in separate corps, with a spur of the
Apennines and fifteen leagues of country between
them. If Lamoriciere had centralised his force, and
fallen upon one of them alone, he might have been
successful, and perhaps have afterwards beaten the
other. Instead of doing so he let his men be dispersed, 4000 in little garrisons to the north, and




1860.]


DEFEAT OF LAMORICIJRE.


81


4000 more in Ancona, so that his army in the field
was only 12,000 men. The small detached garrisons
were cut off one by one; the Papal army was
dispirited, the Sardinian encouraged.  Cialdini got
between the Papal army and Ancona; Lamoriciere
attempted to cut his way through, and was defeated.
Such at least is the appearance which the little that
we know of the campaign presents. I estimate so
highly Lamoriciere's talents, skill, and decision, that I
suspect that there were insurmountable obstacles to
the manoeuvres which seem to me to have been the
right ones. Lamoriciere's military reputation is a
national property. I lament that it was exposed in
such a service. I know that he was influenced by
religious motives, that he accepted the command
against his will, in obedience to the entreaties of the
Pope, that he had not at that time to expect any
thing so strange as the conquest of Naples by
Garibaldi, nor so monstrous as the invasion of Umbria
by the Sardinians. But public opinion is the slave of
success. He has failed, and you will see him abused
and ridiculed by the ignorant foreign press, and by
the servile French press.
Senior.-You expect the French press to attack him.
Changarnier.-Certainly; ils auront le mot d'ordre.
Fanti and Cialdini are merely the instruments of
the Emperor. You know that he said to Cialdini at
Chambery, ' Faites, et faites vite.'
Senior.-Can Ancona resist long?
Changarnier.-I could tell you if I knew where
VOL. I.                             G




82


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


the Sardinian siege artillery is. It cannot resist long
after that cones up. Four thousand dispirited troops
are very few to defend works so extensive, and to
keep down a disaffected population. Lamoriciere will
have to sign a capitulation or to escape by sea.
~Senior.-Will he return to Rome?
Changarnier.-I hope not; the cardinals are his
enemies. They will accuse him of having wasted the
last resources of Rome; there is no calumny against
him that they will not invent. The Pope is too weak
to defend him.
Senior.-The Pope will scarcely remain in Rome.
Duvergier.-Certainly not, if he have any sense of
dignity. He cannot remain a French protege.
Senior.-Will Guyon allow him to choose his
retreat?
Duvergier.-Guyon may use strong language, but
will shrink from actual violence. Whatever the Pope
chooses to do he will be allowed to do.
Barrot.-I fear that all this may end in a schism,
or perhaps in several schisms. In 1848, when the
Papal troops joined the revolutionary army that
marched on the Rhine, Austria threatened a schism.
It will be a great calamity.  The Catholic priesthood
will become the slaves of their governments, and the
governments uniting temporal and spiritual power
will be omnipotent.
We walked with Duvergier, Changarnier, and
Barrot, in the avenues of pines in the park.




1860.] ATTEMPTS OF STRASBOURG AND BOULOGNE. 83


I asked Changarnier his opinion as to the courage
of Louis Napoleon.
Changarnier.-It is great in theory, small in
practice. He forms schemes to which great personal
danger is incidental. But when the danger comes he
quails before it.
At Strasbourg, when the regiment on which he
depended refused its support, he ran, and was found
in a state of abject terror, hiding under a carriage.
In the Boulogne attempt, when he had got half-way
across the Channel, he became alarmed, and wished
to turn back. The people about him called for champagne, and kept him to his purpose by making him
half drunk. As he approached the town and no
friends appeared, his alarm  returned.  The first
troops that met him were under the command of a
sensible old officer, who, when he saw the strange
procession, accompanied by the tame eagle, and was
told that Louis Napoleon was at its head, instead of
Joining him summoned him to surrender.
Vaudreuil had said that at Strasbourg Louis
Napoleon had not dared even to fire a pistol in his
own defence. Louis Napoleon recollected this mot,
kept a pistol in his hand, and fired at the officer, but
his hand shook so, that though the man was not five
paces off he missed him and wounded a poor cook,
who in his white apron was standing at a door to
see what was going on. Louis Napoleon turned, ran
towards the sea, and got into a boat. A boat from
the shore pulled after him. He gave himself up,




84


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


begged them not to hurt him, and said that he had
200,000 francs in his pocket, which he would give
to them. He was landed, and begged M. Adam the
Maire to take the 200,000 francs.
Adam said that he would take care of them, but,
with business-like habits, chose to count them first.
It was lucky for him, for when they were counted in
the presence of the crowd, there were found to be
only 120,000. These 120,000 francs, when he was
on his trial before the peers, he claimed, and the
cruel government of Louis Philippe let him have
them.
Senior.-Did he not show courage at Magenta?
Clhangarnier.-He never crossed the Ticino. He
was smoking in a house during the whole time. At
Solferino he did not move or give an order, but he
smoked fifty-three cigars. We know this, as he
always carries with him little boxes, each of which
contains fifty cigars. One was quite exhausted, and
three had been taken out of the other. Once a spent
ball came near him, but that is the only occasion on
which he could be considered as under fire. I saw
a letter from one of the Cent Suisses to his mother.
'You need be under no anxiety,' he said, 'about me.
I am with the Emperor, and therefore out of danger.'
In fact none of them were ever hit.
Senior.-Is it true that he admits that war is not
his nmetier?
Changarnier.-Quite true; and that is one of our
hopes of peace. If a war should break out on our




1860.]


LOUIS NAPOLEON ON PAUPERISM.


85


frontiers, he will not like to engage his person, and
will scarcely venture to stay at home.
Barrot.-I hear that he has now become haughty,
irritable, and inaccessible: that was not his character when I knew him. He was then mild, accessible, and always ready to listen. So little effect
was generally produced by one's arguments, that I
sometimes doubted whether he really heard them.
When he made me his minister, he sent for me, and
said that he wished to talk over with me his system
of government. I said that nothing could be more
satisfactory to me.
' When a man,' he said, ' is at the head of such a
nation as this, he is bound to do great things.'
I bowed.
'You have read,' he said, 'my book on pauperism?'
I was forced to admit that I had not.
' I will give you then,' he said, 'an outline of
it. I propose to take all the common lands, and to
divide them among the poor families which want
relief.'
'In the first place,' I answered, 'you have no
right to take them; and if you do take them, if you
take the land on which the peasant feeds his cow, you
will create more paupers than you will relieve. And
how do you intend that the paupers shall cultivate
these lands? Who is to supply them with capital?
Who is to supply them with industry and with
skill?'




86


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


'Well,' he replied, 'what is to be done?  How
am I to provide for the poor?'
' You are not,' I said, 'to provide for them at all.
All that you have to do is, to give them peace at
home and abroad, and they will provide for themselves. This is not a brilliant policy; it produces
no sudden results; but it is a safe one; and if you
follow it, you will go down to posterity as one of the
benefactors of France.'
Senior.-Do you believe that his Italian policy
is a deep-laid scheme in order to have a pretence for
taking the Rhine?
Barrot.-I do not.  I do not believe that any of
his schemes are deep-laid. I do not believe that he
has any Italian policy. He hates the Austrians and
the Pope. He is not sorry, perhaps, to see them
upset. He hates the King of Sardinia, too; but is
afraid to stop him. He hates Garibaldi, but he fears
him still more.  He would like to extend our frontiers
to the Rhine.   It would remove the stain on the
Bonapartes, that they lost all that the Republicans
had gained. But I do not believe that he sees his
way. In fact, he does not see, he feels. He is a man
in the dark, il tatonne.
We talked of Prince Napoleon, and I mentioned
his appearance at a meeting of Republicans on the
3rd of December.
Barrot.-I do not think that he ever got into
the room. The meeting was held in the apartment




1860.] THE ASSEMBLY'S MEANS OF DEFENCE.


87


of a baker, named Ladrin. Madame Ladrin was
posted at the door to prevent intrusion. She ran in
to say that Emile de Girardin and Prince Napoleon
were coming. Five or six persons ran to the door to
stop them. Prince Napoleon announced that he was
come to cast his lot with the Republicans, to live or
die with them. But they refused to let him in.
Senior.-On what terms is he with the Em eror?'
Changarnier.-On terms of intimacy, bui not of
confidence.
We talked in the evening of the proposal of the
Questors to enable the Assembly to protect itself by
a permanent guard.
Duvergier.-It was rather a declaratory law than
a new enactment. The Assembly had that power by
the law of the 11th of May, 1848. But some doubt
existed, or was pretended, as to its continuance.
Our legislation had been so voluminous, and often
so inconsistent, that such doubts can be raised against
any law. We, the Constitutionalists, thought it advisable therefore to re-enact it. We had obtained
the adhesion of the Legitimists, of the Orleanists,
and, as we thought, of the Montagne, in which case
we had an ample majority.
Senior.-If you had passed your law, could you
have executed it?
Duvergier.-Certainly. We should have declared
ourselves en permanence, and have called to our aid a
sufficient guard. A single regiment would have been




88


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


enough to protect us against the President's troops,
just as a single regiment would have been enough
to protect the President against ours. The red
trousers will not fire on the red trousers.
Before we came to a vote, we asked St. Arnaud,
the Minister of War, whether it were true that the
copies of the law of the 11th May, 1848, requiring
the President of the Assembly to watch over the
safety of the Assembly, and the military force to
obey orders proceeding directly from him, had been
torn from the walls of the guard-houses.  As resected the fact, St. Arnaud's answer was confused
and evasive, and, what was more important, he denied
the validity of the supposed law, and protested against
any law whatever, enabling the President of the
Assembly, or any one except the Minister of War,
and his subordinates, to give direct orders to the
military force. Even the Duc de Broglie now admitted the necessity for the proposed law. As we
were proceeding to vote, St. Arnaud made a signal
to Magnan, the commander of the garrison of Paris,
who was sitting in a tribune, and they, and Morny,
left the house. They expected the law to pass, and
had resolved to anticipate us by attacking the Assembly that very evening. We saw the members of
the Montagne break into knots and deliberate, and to
our astonishment they voted in a mass against us,
and rejected the motion. St. Arnaud, Morny, and
Magnan, were with the President when the failure of
the motion was announced to him. He rubbed his




1860.]


BARROT ON MEHEMET ALI.


89


hands, and said, ' Now, gentlemen, as there is nothing
which must be done this evening, we will go to
dinner.'
Senior.-What was the motive of the Montagne?
Duvergier.-They were silly enough to fancy that
if the President overturned the Constitution, they
could overturn the President, and introduce the Red
Republic.  ' C'etait un calcul de fous. Mais ils sont
fous.'
September 22nd.-M. Chambol, formerly editor
of the Siecle, and M. Forgues, who writes much in
the Revue des deux Mondes, arrived last night.  I
sat for some time before breakfast with Odillon Barrot.
We talked of Mehemet Ali, of whom he saw much in
Egypt in the last years of his reign. Mehemet Ali
said to him,' For the first fortnight you are my property; you
must breakfast and dine at Shubra; afterwards you
are your own master.'
Barrot.-He showed great and intelligent curiosity; and once complained to me that thinking
over our conversations prevented his sleeping.
He asked me to tell him my opinion on slavery.
'As respects the slaves,' I answered, 'you treat
them well, better than Europeans would do. You
intermarry with them, they rise to the highest
employments. But the effect on the masters of
uncontrolled power, and of associating with persons
who have no will but yours, seems to me very




90


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


mischievous. You complain to me that you have
no men; that you fail in half the things that you
undertake for want of instruments. Is not slavery,
and the sort of education that slavery produces, the
cause of this?'
Artim Bey, who was present, listened in silence,
with his hands crossed before him. Every one,
indeed, seemed to approach him, I will not say with
terror, but with a submission which much resembles
terror.  Artim said to me, as we left him,'If I had said half what you have said, my skin
would have adorned one of the gates of Shubra.'
Senior.-The rule of Said Pasha, though arbitrary,
is not tyrannical. I am inclined to prefer it to this.
Barrot.-So am I.    Property is safer here; but
persons are safer there. In 1852, lists were drawn
up in every department by the Prefet, the Procureur
Imperial, and the Military Commandant, of the persons
believed to be hostile to the government. Every
person whose name is on one of those lists, is considered as a condamne, and under the loi de surete
generale, may be sent, administrativement, to Cayenne
or to Lambressa. No one was tried, or even heard,
or even informed, before his name was inserted in a
list. The lists themselves have been kept secret,
many are believed to be lost. It is held, however,
sufficient when a man is arrested, or interne, or exile,
or deporte, to say to him,' Votre nom est sur une liste.'
He is not allowed to see the list, or to know whether
his name is really on it, or on whose denunciation,




1860.] PETTY TYRANNY OF THE GOVERNMENT.


91


or on what grounds. It is principally on the bourgeois, the ouvriers, the medical men, the higher middle
classes, that this tyranny falls. He fears the higher
classes, especially those whose names are known. He
allows the salons to say what they like.
Duvergier.-But he keeps spies on them. We
have been forced to dismiss two servants for making
reports to the police. I believe that they told only
who visited us, but we could not tolerate such an
intercourse. Among the peasants he retains his
popularity. My relation, the Marquis de Joubert, a
liberal, that is to say, a monarchist, though he has
done much for his neighbours, for their church, for
their schools, for their roads, and indeed for themselves, is ill-treated by a Bonapartist municipality.
Among other petty vexations, they have just driven
a road through his meadows, useless for all purposes,
except teasing him. He threatened to appeal.
' We don't care about your appeal,' they answered.
'L'Empereur aime le peuple, et il nous donnera raison
contre un bourgeois comme vous.'
September  23rd.-We    drove  with  Duvergier,
Changarnier, and Chambol, to the Loire, and afterwards along the embankment to      M. Duvergier's
largest farm, the one occupied by M. Vaillant.  He
pays 8001. a-year, and employs a capital of 60001.
His house, however, is very poor, and the yard in the
usual slovenliness of French farm-yards.   In the
sitting-room were two beds. His wife, though very




92


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


decent in appearance, was not much superior in
manner or conversation to the wife of one of our
smallest farmers.
The embankment is kept up by the State. We
saw two places in which it was carried away by the
floods of 1851. It has been repaired, but with a
narrower basis. Being therefore much weaker than
it was in 1851, it will fall before a less formidable
flood than that was.   The Loire is fed by two
streams, the Loire proper and the Allier. In general,
they swell at different times.  If they rise simultaneously, and high, there is a disastrous flood.
Duvergier.-Our master was exceedingly displeased by the flood of 1851. He said that he
would confine the rivers of France, like her revolutions, within proper bounds. Ever since, the
engineers des ponts et chaussee's have been preparing a vast plan of drainage and embankment;
but as nothing but paper has come of it, the next
flood will find us worse prepared than the last
did.
He showed us a rising ground about a mile from
the river.
Duverqier.-The Prefet of Le Cher came in his
carriage as far as this place. He could see from
hence a vast extent of water.  We wanted him to
go farther and look at the breaches by which the
inundation had entered, but he said that he had seen
enough, and returned. A few days after, the Journal




1860.] PROCRASTINATION OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


93


du De'partement glorified him for the diligence with
which he had examined; for the dangers which he
had run; in short, for 'un courage et un devouement,
approchants de ceux de l'Empereur,' which was true, for
the Emperor did just the same, looked at the inundation from a safe distance, and drove back again.
I talked with Changarnier about the chances of
war.
Changarnier.-I think them less now than they
were two years ago. Then you were unprepared. Austria and Prussia had quarrelled. Russia was hostile
to both. If Louis Napoleon had turned towards the
Rhine instead of the Po, he had a fair chance of
success. But he preferred making his spring on
Austria, as the weaker enemy, and one against whom
he could arm his favourite allies, the Revolutionary
party in Italy and in Hungary. The alarm which
this has created in Germany, the alliances which it
has produced there, and, above all, the extraordinary
military spirit which has shown itself in England,
have checked him. Probably his schemes of aggrandisement to the North are not abandoned, but they
are adjourned. That is his temper. He abandons
nothing; he adjourns everything.
I asked him what he expected to be the effect of
new weapons.
To diminish the use of infantry charges, and
to increase cavalry ones.  Cavalry crossing the




94


CONVERSATION S.


[1860.


ground more rapidly, will be a shorter time exposed to fire.  On les tiendra couverts par un pli de
terrain, et on les lancera. There will be less bloodshed. The Romans conquered the world with a
sword two feet long. The beaten army was so close
to the conquerors that it was destroyed. Now it will
be so distant that the bayonet will not be able to
catch it.
Senior.-In sieges, will the attack or the defence
gain most?
Changarnier.-The attack, at least as respects
fortified towns.  It will be necessary to carry the
works to such a distance from the town that they
will require an army to defend them.    Most of the
present town fortifications will be found useless.
Senior.-Will the Maximilian system, which requires fewer men, be adopted?
Clhangarnier.- Certainly not.  It is good   for
nothing.  The Austrians have wasted on it enormous sums.   The stone towers will be destroyed by
the new artillery. The system will be what is called
the Montalembert system, which was used at Sebastopol, the substitution, as far as possible, of earth for
stone. The objection to that system is, that it is
more subject to escalade, especially if the attack
be made by French troops with the furia francese.
The turf affords footing, and the inclination must
be considerable.   Still it is better than   stone,
of which the splinters are as destructive as grapeshot.




1860.]


GRATITUDE OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


95


At dinner I sat next to Chambol. We talked of
the Provisional Government.
Charmbol.-Its ministers were des dr6les de gens.
Lebel was Ministre de l'Instruction publique et des
Cultes. A schoolmaster was complained of to him.
He was described in general terms as unfit for his
place.
' But what are his precise faults?' said Lebel.
'Why,' it was answered, 'he is in holy orders, and
yet has a family by his housekeeper.'
' Give me,' he replied, 'his name in writing, that
I may make him a bishop.'
The Siecle was mentioned.
Senior.-You were long its editor?
Chambol.-For years; in fact, until it was bought
by the Government. While editor I had an opportunity of conferring a favour on Louis Napoleon.
He was in prison in Ham, and was brutally attacked
by one of the Royalist journals. I said nothing of
Strasbourg or of Boulogne, but I defended him for
the part which he took in 1831 against the Pope, and
I deprecated insults to a prisoner. He was grateful,
and sent to me a little ancient statue which he had
brought from Italy. I would not accept it; and he
then sent me a ring, with his name on it. 'This,' he
said, ' M. Chambol cannot refuse, as it is of no
pecuniary value; and the time will come when he
will find it useful. When he shows me this ring,
I will do for him anything that he asks.'




96


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


I have the ring still. I might have used it on
the 2nd of December, for I had the honour to be
among those for whom he provided lodging in Mont
Valerien; and, perhaps, if he had proposed to send
me further, I should have done so.
We had a large dinner-party-among them M.
and Mme. Benoist d'Azy. She is one of the few very
handsome women whom I have seen in France. It
was the first fine warm evening since we reached
Hery.   After coffee, Odillon Barrot, who is an
habitual smoker, took me into the verandah, and
spent an hour and a half and three cigars in relating
to me his share in the events of the 24th of February.
Barrot.-After the King, while submitting to
reform, had refused us a dissolution, and retreated
from his cabinet into the room containing his unofficial advisers, shutting the door in Thiers' face,
we thought it necessary to send to the barricades to
announce the creation of a reforming ministry. I
offered to go, and Thiers wished to go with me.
Senior.-It was a service of danger.  Had he
nerve enough for it?
Barrot.-Sometimes, in moments of great danger,
il se trouble. His vivid imagination presents to him
too many objects at once. He does not know which
to select as principally to be pursued or principally
to be avoided. He sees too much. Duller men see
only one thing at a time, and are calm. This has




1860.]


BARROT IN FEBRUARY, 1848.


97


made his courage doubted. But what he wants is
not courage, but rapid decision. He is morally brave.
He is always ready to expose himself to danger, if
he thinks that the objects to be attained are worth the
risk. In this case I thought that as far as he was
concerned they were not; so I begged him to remain
in the chateau.
Beaumont and one or two others accompanied
me. We were joined as we went out by Horace
Vernet in his uniform as colonel of a regiment of
National Guards.
At the first barricade, which was in the Rue
de l'Echelle, we were well received. I told them
that Thiers and I were ministers, that reform was
granted, and that the barricades were now useless.
They cried, ' Vive Barrot!  Vive la reforme!' and
pulled down the barricade. So it was till we got
to the Boulevards.   There the people were less
satisfied.  They cried out, 'On te trompe Barrot!
On te tromrnpe! II n'y aura pas de reforme avec
Bugeaud!' Still they quitted the barricades. Farther
on we met some of the troops. The people had got
among them, had given them wine, and in some
cases had got hold of their arms, Farther still we
met with the fourgons of the artillery, which had
been sent with ammunition from Vincennes, and were
now being plundered by the mob, while the troops
looked on, and the officers turned away their heads.
Farther still, a little beyond the Porte St. Denys,
we found an enormous barricade, crossing the whole
VOL. I.                             H




98


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


boulevard. The men behind it were silent. I told
them my story; I read to them the manifesto which
we had drawn up, and begged them to pull down the
barricade. They would not answer me. I did not
think it advisable to leave them in my rear, so I
turned back. I was too exhausted to walk. Some
of the mob put me on a horse, and supported me.
As I returned along the Boulevards the barricades
were all down. The only cry was ' Vive la reforme!'
There was no anarchical, or even republican, manifestations. As we reached the Place de la Madeleine,
there was a sudden cry, 'Aux Tuileries! aux Tuileries!' I wish to God that I had gone with them.
The mob that surrounded me was monarchical. They
wished only for reform, and they had got it. They
would have filled all the avenues to the chateau and
to the Palais Bourbon, and have prevented the subsequent attacks on each.  But I undervalued the
danger. The members of the secret societies, the
Rouges, had not yet shown themselves. I did not
suspect that they were ready, and that within an
hour they would rush from their ambuscade. When
I recollected what were the terms on which I had
parted from the King-the words, 'You shall have
no dissolution,' ringing in my ears-it seemed to me
that if, two hours afterwards, I returned to him at
the head of 100,000 emeutiers, and there were not
less in my suite, I should return rather as a revolutionary dictator than as a constitutional minister.
So I explained to my followers that I was really too




1860.]


ABDICATION OF THE KING.


99


exhausted to remain with them any longer, that they
must lead my horse to my house in the Rue la Ferme
des Mathurins, and let me get half-an-hour's rest.
They took me home, carried me upstairs, and laid
me on a bed.
But in a few minutes messengers came from the
Hotel of the Minister of the Interior to say that my
presence was necessary there to dictate the telegrams
which were to be sent to the provinces. They were
known to be in great excitement, and it was feared
that armed bodies might march on Paris, if they were
not stopped by news of the appointment of a reforming ministry. I went thither in my carriage, for I
could not walk or ride. The Pont de la Concorde
was filled by a dense mass, which opehed to let
me through, with cries of 'Vive Barrot!  Vive la
reforme!'
I spent about half-an-hour dictating messages,
and then proceeded to join my colleagues at the
Tuileries. I tried to get into the Carousel, under the
arch; but instead of the troops whom I had left
there, it was filled by a mob, and I saw the rear
of the soldiers marching out undeti the Tour de
l'Horloge.
Then I was told the news —that the King had
named me the President of the Council; that he had
abdicated, having appointed the Duchess of Orleans
regent; that she had been sending everywhere in
search of me; and that I should find her in her
pavilion at the end of the terrasse du bord de l'eau.




100


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


It was a sort of summer-house, built for her by the
King, on the spot now occupied by the orangery.
I went thither as fast as the crowd would permit
me, and searched it all over in vain. This lost me
twenty minutes. At last I was told that she was
gone to the Chamber of Deputies. I followed her
thither, and as I was entering I was pulled aside
by some of the revolutionary party, who told me
that a provisional government was to be proposed,
and urged me to be its president. I refused, of
course, with the utmost indignation, and found the
Duchess pale, but composed, with her sons and her
brother-in-law, the Duc de Nemours, sitting at the
foot of the tribune. A mob had entered the Chamber,
but seemed rather curious than revolutionary.
M. Dupin had announced the abdication, and the
regency of the Duchess.
M. Marie had objected, that by law the regency
belonged to the Duc de Nemours, and proposed a
provisional government, under whose direction the
question as to the person of the regent should be
settled.
I said a few words, in which I assumed the
regency of the Duchess, and asked the support of the
Chamber to a liberal ministry. She herself rose once
or twice to speak, but was very unwisely, very unfortunately, held down by those around her.
At length Lamartine got into the tribune. I had
no doubt that he would move the immediate recognition of the Duchess as regent, and that I should be




1860.]   THE DUCHESS IN THE ASSEMBLY.


101


able to accompany her to the Hotel de Ville. To my
astonishment, and to that of the Assembly, he declared that the days of monarchy were over, that
a solid basis of government must be sought in the
lowest depths of society, and that a provisional
government must be formed, to act until the people
had expressed its will.
A different mob, the mob of the secret societies,
armed and furious from the sack of the Tuileries,
now rushed into the Chamber. It yelled out its
acceptance of Lamartine's proposal. The Duchess
and her party were forced to leave the Chamber.
Laroche Jaquelin, with the perverse folly of a true
Legitimist, cried out that, as the people had declared
its will, the powers of the Assembly were at an end.
The deputies, some frightened, some astounded,
broke up. The provisional government was proclaimed from the tribune, and enthroned itself in the
Hotel de Ville. I accompanied the Duchess to the
Invalides.
'How unfortunate it is,' I said to her, 'that I
did not find you at the pavilion! If we had reached
the Chamber half-an-hour sooner, you would have
been proclaimed as regent before the republican mob
arrived, and carried to the Hotel de Ville.'
'Alas!' she answered, 'I was sitting quietly in
my own apartments. Nobody came to me, nobody
advised me, until I was told to go to the Chamber.'
We, the friends of Reform, have been accused of
creating the Revolution of 1848. It was created by




102


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


the enemies of Reform. They taunted us with the
absence of any popular demonstration in favour of it.
The Reform banquets were our answer to that taunt.
At every banquet which I attended, and I presided
at twenty or thirty, I required that the first toast
should be 'The King,' and the second' The Constitution.'  When we found that the minds of the
people were becoming dangerously excited we gave
them up. The King rubbed his hands, and said to
Duchhtel,' I always told you that this agitation
would come to nothing.' He ought to have known
that a great party does not abandon a powerful
political engine without good reason. He ought to
have known that the sudden furling of our sails was
a proof that we felt the approach of a storm.
Senior.-Guizot thinks that on the 24th of February the King lost his head.
Barrot.-It is true. A man who has lived for
years in a dark room, who has systematically prevented any light from penetrating to him, is dazzled
as soon as his shutters are broken open. He chose
to say that his 'Pays legal was France.' He allowed
no one to suggest to him any doubts as to the safety
of a system which consisted in the purchase by the
deputies of a majority of the electors, and in the
purchase by the King of a majority of the deputies.
When that systenm broke in his hands he was a
magician deprived of his wand.


Monday, September 24th.-This was our last morn



1860.]


CHARACTER OF CHANGARNIER.


103


ing at Hery. Changarnier seldom appears early; the
rest of the party met in Duvergier's study before
breakfast.
Target read to us a letter from Paris. As it came
by the post, I was struck with its freedom. Louis
Napoleon was called Jupiter Scapin, and his answer
to Farini and Cialdini at Chambery, 'Faites, et faites
vite,' was repeated.
Duvergier read to us one from M. Merikof, the
great banker in Naples. Before the disturbances, he
had sent his children for safety to Switzerland; he
was now in Switzerland to bring them back to
Naples.
I asked Duvergier what rank among generals
public opinion gave to Changarnier.
Duvergier.-The very highest.   Bugeaud hated
him, but when military merits were discussed he
always put Changarnier next to himself, far above
Pellissier, Canrobert, and even Lamoriciere. He has
sacrificed to the constitution rank, power, wealth,
and even fame. If Bugeaud had been in his place
on the 29th of January, 1849, he would have made
the coup d'etat for Louis Napoleon.
Senior.-Why did he refuse the command in the
Crimea?
Duvergier.-He did not refuse, for it was not
offered to him.
Senior.-Not directly; but was he not told that
he might have it?
Duvergier.-Never. Louis Napoleon would not




104


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


have put an army into the hands of a man who treated
him as an usurper, and Changarnier would not have
taken one, either with the design of being a faithful servant of the existing Government or with
the arriere pensee of overthrowing it. His greatest
victory was a bloodless one. It was on the 16th of
April, 1848. The extreme Republicans had organized
a Rouge Revolution. Changarnier had no military
command. He was to be our minister at Berlin, and
went to the Affaires Etrangeres to take his last instructions. He was told that Lamartine was at the Hotel
de Ville, went thither, and found him, with those
among his colleagues who were not in the conspiracy,
sitting in helpless fear. They expected an attack
from 30,000 insurgents. Changarnier offered to take
the command of the National Guard; he was allowed
to do so. He collected in the course of an hour or
two thirty or forty thousand men, on the left bank
of the Seine. He stationed half of them on the Quai
d'Orsay, near the Pont de la Concorde, and the rest
on the Isle du Palais, near the Pont d'Arcole. He
let the insurrectionary column pass along the Quai
des Tuileries and the Quai du Louvre, and then
crossed the Pont de la Concorde and formed behind
them. At the same time, his men from the Isle
crossed the Pont d'Arcole, and established themselves
on the Quai Pelletier, and the Place Chatelet before
them. They felt that they were in a trap, and disbanded among the narrow streets of the Halles.
This was the foundation of his Parisian fame. He




1860.]


BOURGES.


105


now lives, on a narrow income, modestly and retiredly, in a small apartment in the Rue Corcelle.
Immediately after breakfast we left Hery for
Paris. On our road we spent a couple of hours at
Bourges.
It is difficult to say whether the Cathedral of
Chartres or that of Bourges be the finer. Chartres is
longer, Bourges is loftier and wider, the widest,
indeed, that I know, being 131 feet. The architecture of each is of the thirteenth century, simple
and grand, but less massive than the earlier Norman.
Bourges has no transept. This I think a defect;
but the four aisles, two on each side, of gradually
increasing height, and the chapels surrounding the
choir, built out-as is the custom in the French
cathedrals-so as not to interfere with the Chevet,
give the intricacy and variety which are the objects
of a transept.  The painted glass is fine. It formerly
filled all the windows, but a hundred years ago the
chapter thought the church too dark, and removed
it from the lower windows of the clerestory of the
choir. In the crypt is a remarkable Entombment, in
painted stone. The Christ is good, particularly the
head.
Jacques Cceur's house is interesting. He was far
better lodged than Mary, Queen of Scots, a hundred
years later. It is now the Hotel de Ville, deformed
by modern rooms and furniture, but has been bought
by the Government, and is to be restored.




106


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


September 25th. Paris.-The first person that I
saw to-day was General de Fenelon. He is an old
African friend. When I knew him at Algiers he was
colonel of a regiment of Chasseurs d'Afrique. He
married a daughter of Marshal Randon, was made
general after the battle of Solferino, and now commands a brigade in Paris. He asked me what were
Changarnier's criticisms on Lamoriciere's defeat.
Senior.-He says that it is difficult to form an
opinion at this distance, but that Lamoriciere appears
to him to have too much scattered his troops.
Fenelon.-That they were too much scattered is
evident, but Lamoriciere is so admirable a tactician
that I cannot easily impute to him an obvious error.
I believe that his dispositions were made for the mere
purpose of repelling Garibaldi, and that the invasion
by the Piedmontese, with whom Rome was at peace,
took him, and had a right to take him, by surprise.
We ought to know before we judge him what sort
of an army he had. Men raised from different
countries, with no mutual confidence, no patriotism,
or feeling of national honour, mere mercenaries, are
seldom good troops. Probably, however, they were
better than the Piedmontese.
Senior.-Where do you put the Piedmontese?
Fenelon.- The original Piedmontese army, that
which fought by our side in the Italian campaign,
was not a bad one, but could scarcely be called a good
one. It was not first-rate, not good second-rate; it
was good third-rate. The present Piedmontese army,




1860.]


ITALIAN AND AUSTRIAN TROOPS.


107


having lost its best portion, the Savoy brigade, and
having gained an undisciplined rabble from the least
military countries in Italy, must be positively bad.
Sixty thousand Austrians could drive them into
the sea.
Ten thousand Tuscans were encamped near us in
Lombardy.     Two or three horses broke loose,-the
Tuscan force was terrified. They thought that they
were attacked by the Austrians, and their behaviour
under that fear indicated slightly what they would
have done if they had been seriously attacked.
The Austrians are really good troops,-the best I
have seen after yours and ours. They are well disciplined, they fight well, they     retreat calmly   and
silently. We beat them; but the victory was hardly
earned and not decisive.
I put to him a question which has often been put
to me: ' What is the rainy season in Algiers?'
Fene'lon.-November and      December, and March
and April. January and February are fine.
From   Fenelon I went to Merimee.*
* The well-known author of Colomba, La Chronique de Charles
IX., &c., and of many short stories of exquisite finish. He was
born in 1803, the son of a painter, whose artistic talent he
inherited, for painting- sketching from nature, taking small
copies in oil of the great pictures in the galleries he visitedwas one of his principal recreations. He studied law, and was
called to the bar, but never exercised his profession. After 1830
he became successively Secretary to the Cabinet of M. D'Argout,




108


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Merimee.-My belief is that, in a short time, the
only fruit that will remain of the Italian campaign
will be our acquisition of Savoy and Nice.
Garibaldi is intoxicated, and he has about him
men more mad than himself.
Mazzini is in Naples.      Sicily is in the hands of
men the best of whom are rogues and the worst are
murderers.
They will attack Venice; they        will be beaten
disgracefully.    Austria   will restore   the   expelled
families, and 'revendiquer,' as is now the term, Lombardy.
Senior.-Will the Emperor suffer this?
Merimee.-Why not?        He had rather see it than
to the Board of Trade, Clerk to the Admiralty, and Inspector of
the Ancient and Historical Monuments. In 1844 his writings
obtained for him a place in the Academie Francaise.
Prosper Merimee was a great friend of Madame de Montijo,
the Empress's mother; he had been very kind to the little
Eugenie, and after her marriage was appointed a Senator,
for which he was coldly looked on by many of his old friends.
He was an excellent and voluminous letter-writer, and his
published Lettres a une inconnue, excited much attention at home
and abroad. His conversation was full of wit and epigram, with
an affectation of caustic indifference which formed a piquant
contrast with his real qualities of head and heart. Although
he often laughs at the English in his writings, he had a great
many English friends, and he liked to be told that he had
a'cir anglais. He had a fine tall figure, an interesting and
expressive, though not a handsome face, and a studiously quiet
manner. He died in 1870.-ED.




1860.1


PIEDMONTESE INVASION OF ITALY.


109


an united Italy at his gates. France cares nothing
about Italy. She has got all that she wanted,-a good
military frontier, while Piedmont has none.
Senior.-France may care nothing about Italy,
but does the Emperor care nothing?
Merine'e.-Very little.
Senior.-Will not his vanity be hurt by such a
result of his promise to free Italy to the Adriatic?
Mirimee.-That promise was a silly one; but by
this time it is forgotten. And as to his vanity, nothing can hurt that more than the conduct of Piedmont does. Piedmont breaks his treaties, despises
his advice, attacks his friends, and creates herself
into a first-rate power in defiance of him.
Senior.-Do you not believe that Piedmont is now
his instrument? that he said to her, 'Faites, et faites
vite?'
Ie'rimee.-I do not believe it. I admit that the
course taken by Piedmont was the proper one, that
it was the only means by which the Roman States
could be saved from a violent revolution. I admit,
too, that in endeavouring to restrain Garibaldi,
Cavour opposes the most dangerous and the most insolent enemy whom Louis Napoleon has ever encountered.
Still, the invasion of the territories of a sovereign,
not merely neutral, but friendly, on the pretext that
he has raised a mercenary army, is so anomalous, so
opposed to all the diplomatic traditions which constitute what we choose to call the law of nations, that




110


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


I cannot think that he has ventured to advise it. He
may wish Piedmont to do, and to do quickly, but he
has not said so.
You must recollect, too, that Austria is to be
stopped only at the expense of a general war. The
German spirit is up. If Austria be wantonly attacked
-as she will be-by Piedmont, under the name of
Garibaldi; if she defeats-as she will do-the revolutionary army, and follows it-as she will do-into
the countries whence it came, and the Emperor
comes to the rescue, will Germany, scarcely restrained
when Austria was apparently the aggressor, keep
quiet when Austria has all justice and all international law on her side?
If we make another war on Italy, it will most
assuredly be followed by a war on the Rhine.
Louis Napoleon is quite ' desillusionne'' as to
war,
What he saw at Magenta, followed by what he
saw at Solferino, astonished, and frightened, and
disgusted him. He says that it is not his ' metier.'
He has commanded an army, he has won his spurs
-' il a requ le bapteme du feu'-he is satisfied, and
will not wantonly run such hazards again.
Senior.-You say that the French war in Italy
will bring on a war on the Rhine. Do you suppose
that the Germans will be mad enough to invade
France?
Me'ri'mee.-Why not?
Senior.-Because they would be beaten.




1860.] THE EMPEROR INDIFFERENT TO ITALY.


111


Merimee.-So I think; but they do not.     They
think that they might get Alsace.
Senior.-I give them credit for more sense.
Merimeee.-I never give credit to a nation for any
sense.  Look at the conduct of Prussia towards
Austria. Austria is her rival,-almost her enemy.
The countries differ in religion, in government,
in education, in feelings, and in interests. If Austria
falls to pieces, Prussia will be her heir,-both in
territory and in influence.  Yet Prussia, merely
from a sentimental German feeling, is eager to fly
to her assistance, As a general rule, nations are
fools.
Senior. —What will you do if the Pope leaves
Rome?
Merimee.-Leave it ourselves.  We have no motive for staying there,
Senior.-Not the motive of excluding Austria?
Merimee,-No.    I repeat that we care little about
Austria or Italy. Austria is no longer formidable.
The farther she spreads, the less coherent she becomes. We have got all that we want. If we keep
quiet, no one will attack us. What I wish is that the
Pope should go to Spain. What I expect is, that he
will go to Austria.   This will put an end to his
influence in Italy. He has less there now than he
has in any other country that calls itself Catholic.
25th September.-We breakfasted at A        today, but found there only Madame A. B. C. A. B. C.




112


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


had been suddenly called to Paris, and crossed us
on our way. We talked of English and French
children. Madame A. B. C. praised the physique of
the English; we the morale of the French. These
differences are accounted for by differences in the
modes of education.   French children are seldom
sent to school. In every house that we have visited,
except Guizot's, there was a tutor.
There seems to be no nursery in a French house.
The children live with their parents, always breakfast
and dine with them, however large the party, and
keep their hours. I have pitied poor little things
of four or five years old dying from sleepiness, but
kept up till nine. They are certainly, as Madame
A. B. C. lamented, less strong, less rosy, and less
healthy, than ours. On the other hand, they are
far better behaved. English children are always
trying to attract attention, always obtruding their
own wants, and opinions, and likes and dislikes.
French children are quiet and silent. They are instantly checked if they give any audible signs of
their presence. They are neither shy nor vain.
September 26th.-We dined with Marshal Randon,
the Minister of War, and met the Fenelons and
M. Perier, brother of Casimir Perier. We talked of
the new weapons.
Randon.-As respects fortresses, they are more
favourable to the attack than to the defence. The
attacker can choose his distance. Mayence, till now,




1860.]


RUSSIAN LOSS IN THE CRIMEA.


113


one of the strongest places in Europe, is found to
require advanced outworks, and a larger garrison.
Senior.-Does Verona deserve its reputation?
Fenelon.-Its strength depends on its position.
Close to the mountains, and on the rapid river which
runs through it, it can neither be turned nor invested. It is rather an entrenched camp than a
fortress. It requires an army to defend it; but that
army could resist one of double its own numbers.
It is a Sebastopol, but better fortified. In Sebastopol
the garrison was ill protected. The loss of the
Russians at one time was from 1500 to 2000 a-day.
Senior.-What do you suppose to have been the
whole loss during that war?
Randon. —We lost about 90,000 men; you lost
25,000; the Turks at least 85,000; the Piedmontese
none.
The Russians admit a loss of 650,000. But
the Russian army is subject to an organised system
of robbery. The colonels draw pay and rations for
the number of men whom they return as present
under arms; they habitually overstate that number.
The 650,000 include many of these men of straw.
Still their real loss cannot have been less than
500,000. As there has been no recruitment since the
peace, the Russian army must be comparatively
small-quite unfit for operations beyond the frontier.
Senior.-What was your loss in the Italian
campaign?
Randon.-In men actually killed in battle, in
VOL. I.                              I




114


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


round numbers, 7000. You may add 3000 more
for those who died of their wounds or of sickness.
The sickness was small, as the campaign was short,
and in fine weather.
Senior.-I supposed the loss to have been much
greater. We are told that the battle of Solferino was
very sanguinary, so sanguinary that the sight of the
field gave Louis Napoleon a horror of war.
]Randon.-It was very sanguinary.     We lost
15,000 men, hors du combat; the Piedmontese, 7000;
the Austrians, about 38,000. That makes 50,000
killed and wounded.
Senior.- The Austrian and Piedmontese loss
bears no proportion to yours.
Randon.-Because they were beaten. The Piedmontese were opposed to the best of Austrian
generals, Benedec. They were ill disposed, ill commanded, and fought ill. Their loss would have been
much greater if Benedec had not been recalled, by
the defeat of the centre. The Austrians fought well,
but, as I said before, they were beaten; and, as is
always the case, their principal loss was after they
had given way.
Fenelon.-I do not believe that the Emperor was
much shocked by what he saw on the field of battle.
Such a scene is not so frightful as perhaps you
suppose. The killed and wounded are dispersed over
a very large extent of ground. The wounded are
still excited by the contest. You hear men unable
to rise crying, 'En avant!' ' En avant!' I gave some




1860.]  FRANCE WISHES FOR NO MORE WAR.


115


water at Solferino to a young tirailleur.  His leg was
broken, and his arm stripped of its muscles by a shell.
'J'espere,' he said, 'que j'ai joliment fait mon devoir.'
What is really depressing-almost overpowering-is
to go into the ambulances after a battle. The excitement is then over; the wounded are depressed by
suffering and loss of blood. Some are undergoing
painful operations, some are in dread of them. This
is a scene that may well have shaken Louis Napoleon's
nerves.
Senior.-Homer's battles are full of
otLJwyr Kar evx(orX)
oXXvYTi)V r ICCat oXXv,0\\EX.'
Fenelon.-There is nothing of that in a modern
battle; men do not scream when they are hit.
I should be amused if it were not mischievous
at the Gallophobia of Europe.
Senior.-It is not wonderful, when you make wars
for ideas.
Fenelon.-But we have no ideas now to fight for.
Senior.- Not the Rhine?
Fenelon.-Certainly not. What should we gain
by adding to France Rhenish Prussia and Rhenish
Bavaria-strangers to us in blood, in language, and
in interests? Our strength consists in our homogeneity, in our having no Ireland, no Venetia to
keep down. Those provinces would cost far more
than they are worth, and would revolt on our first
disaster. As to Belgium, we ought perhaps to have




116


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


taken it in 1830, when it had broken from Holland,
and wished to belong to us. But now it has
gained a national feeling; it has an excellent king;
it is the freest, richest, and most prosperous part of
the Continent. It would be a disaffected province,
and a mischievous neighbour to our manufactures.
The Belgians say, I believe with truth, that Verviers
would ruin Sedan in three years.
Senior.-If Austria is attacked, and beats Piedmont, will France remain quiet?
Feneolon.-Why not?   We owe nothing to Piedmont.
Ranlon.-I am not sure that we should suffer
Austria to retake Lombardy; but we should be delighted to see her restore the Dukes and the Pope.
Fenelon.-The disappearance of Austria would
be a European calamity. Hungary would fall to
Prussia; perhaps also the Danubian provinces; perhaps even Constantinople. Austria is necessary to
the balance of power. I believe that the Emperor
feels this, and that he would be very sorry to be the
accomplice of Garibaldi. lie readily gave Lamoriciere
permission to serve the Pope.
Senior.-Corcelle assured me that Lamoriciere did
not ask his permission.
Fenelon.-I myself saw the letter to M. Delangle.
Corcelle must have supposed that as Lamoriciere
did not ask the permission of the Emperor or of the
Minister of War, he asked none. But if he had
entered a foreign service without a permission re



1860.] EMPEROR FAVOURABLE TO THE POPE.


117


gularly granted by the Garde des Sceaux he would
have ceased to be a Frenchman. Lamoriciere probably
values little the favour of the Emperor, but he is
not fool enough to sacrifice to a punctilio his rights
as a French citizen.
September 27th.-I called this morning on Cousin.*
He is excited and unhappy.
* Victor Cousin, the well-known philosopher, author of Du
bien, du vrai et du beau, of many biographies and studies of the
ladies and society of the seventeenth century, &c. He was the
son of a watchmaker, born 1792. He was educated at the Lycee
Charlemagne, and carried off the first prize for rhetoric. He next
entered l'Ecole Normale, where the teaching of Royer-Collard and
others induced him, though passionately devoted to art, to turn
his attention to philosophy. He became Professor of Greek in
1812, and in 1814 Senior Lecturer on Philosophy; at the
same time he gave Lectures in the Lycee Napoleon. During the
Cent jours he enlisted in the Royal Volunteers, and in 1815 he
followed M. Royer-Collard as Professor at the Sorbonne; where he
taught the Scotch philosophy. In 1817, he travelled in Germany,
and adopted the philosophy of Kant, Fichte, Shelling, and Hegel,
whose doctrines he taught in his Lectures delivered in 1819-21.
This drew upon him his first persecution; he was deprived of his
professorship. Whilst a private tutor, he brought out editions of
the works of Proclus, Plato, and Descartes. During a second
visit to Germany in 1824, Cousin was accused of Carbonarism, and
imprisoned for six months. On his return to France, he threw
himself into the party of the Opposition, which, on coming into
power, restored to him his Professorship at the Sorbonne, where he
shared the glory of Messrs. Guizot and Villemain. Under Louis
Philippe, Cousin was made a Counsellor of State, a Member of the
Board of Public Instruction, a Member of the Academy of Moral




118


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Cousin.-Everything that is going on in England,
in France, in Italy, and in Germany, gives me pain.
In England, you are doing all that you can to ruin
Parliamentary    Government.     You    are worse than
Louis Napoleon. He merely killed it, or suspended
it, in one country, and the contrast between his reign
and that of our constitutional kings is favourable to
it. You are discrediting it. There is no honour, or
truth, or patriotism, in your debates. It is a mere
struggle for place, or for notoriety. As for the States
of the Church, the total want of administrative knowledge or experience in ecclesiastics has made the
papal rule, however good the intentions of the Pope
or of the Cardinals may be, so vexatious, mischievous,
and oppressive, that the most active and energetic
Romans, confounding, as indeed the Pope himself
does, religion and government, are opposed to both;
are atheists, as well as revolutionists. There cannot
and Political Science, an officer of the Legion d'Honneur, and a
Peer of France. In 1840, he formed part of the Cabinet of M.
Thiers. He favoured the Revolution of 1848, and contributed to
its success, by publishing, with a Republican Preface, a popular
edition of the Profession de foi d'un [Maire Savoyard. After 1849,
he ceased to take a part in public affairs and devoted himself to
literature. He translated Plato, and was one of the greatest
philosophical writers of France. His great delight, however, was
in everything connected with the seventeenth century, and his
passion for Madame de Longueville caused no little amusement
to his friends. He had extraordinary wit, spirits, and vivacity,
and his conversation was delightful. He died in 1867.-ED.




1860.]


VALUE OF THE CONCORDAT.


be a worse combination. It releases men from every
obligation, even from every scruple.  You Protestants are mistaken, if you think that the destruction
of Roman Catholicism will produce a purer or a more
rational Christianity. The religion of the people of
the South, of the French, of the Italians, and of the
Spaniards, is based, not on reason, but on tradition.
The higher classes are philosophers, the lower classes
believe or disbelieve from habit. In Italy the habit
now is to disbelieve. In France it is to believe. But
that habit might be rapidly altered. At the accession
of Louis XVI. the French were enthusiastically loyal
and monarchical. Not twenty years after, they had
killed the King and the Queen, and had abolished
royalty.
If the Pope leaves Rome, if he becomes an
Austrian or a Spanish subject, all confidence in him,
all respect for him will be gone. We shall tear to
pieces our Concordat.   I was once JMinistre des
Cultes, and I know from experience the value of the
Concordat. The Pope's power of rejection has prevented the proposal to him of improper persons as
bishops, and has prevented their actual appointment
if proposed. Do you suppose that we shall degrade
ourselves by submitting our choice to the confirmation
or rejection of an Austrian subject, or even of a
refugee in Austria? We shall shake off the Pope,
and with the Pope we shall shake off religion. And
then what will restrain us, except mere legal or
military force?




120


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


I believe that all this enters into Louis Napoleon's
plans. He is at heart an Atheistic Jacobin. His
wish is to be an imperial Robespierre, but with no
more actual bloodshed than he thinks absolutely
necessary. He does not refuse to shed blood, he
massacred thousands on the 5th of December, but
he prefers inflicting slow, distant, unrecorded death.
Lambressa and Cayenne are his guillotines, and they
have destroyed many more than those who died under
the Revolutionary Tribunal. The clergy is the only
body in France that makes any show of resistance.
Whatever strength and whatever independence they
have, is derived from the Pope.  His object is to
destroy the Papacy, in order to subjugate the clergy.
And the first step towards the destruction of the
Papacy is to drive the Pope from Rome.
The only event which I see with pleasure is the
acquisition of Savoy. Partly for our own sake, as it
gives us the frontier which we wanted; but more, for
the sake of the Savoyards themselves.  They are a
brave, good people. I lived two autumns with them,
and I love them. Wherever I went the people asked
me,-' When will you deliver us from these Piedmontese? They grind us down with taxes, they
involve us in wars in which we have no interest, they
oppress our clergy, they insult the Pope.   Our
deputies are not listened to in the Assembly, our
produce has to cross the Alps to find a market.
Nature, habits, language, and interests, make us
French. When will you come and take us?'




1860.]


ANTI-PAPAL FEELING IN ROME.


121


September 28th.-We dined at ChAteau d'Issy,
now occupied by M. and Madame Chevreux.             He is
a brother of the late Madame Say. We found there
Ampere,* who is domesticated with the Chevreux, the
Leon Says, and the Abbe Gratry,t an Oratorian, the
first priest that I have met in society. He is a very
gentlemanlike man, and talked well on political
economy.
Ampere, who has spent two or three of the last
winters in Rome, says that the anti-papal feeling of
the Romans has extended itself to the French garrison.
They feel ashamed and degraded at being the supports
of a government which the Romans execrate, and of
a religion which they disbelieve.
* Jean Jacques Ampbre, who was born in 1800, and who died
in 1866, was the son of the celebrated mathematician, Andre
Ampere. His tastes, unlike those of his father, were not scientific
but literary. He was professor successively at the Athenee of
Marseilles, at the Sorbonne, and at the Coll6ge de France. His
Lectures were published, and, together with his articles and travels,
form several volumes. But he was far more eminent as a talker
than as a writer. His early days were spent in the society of
Madame R6camier and Chateaubriand, and he possessed, as his
friend Tocqueville said of him, the real old French esprit. He was
very animated and full of action. He read aloud admirably, and
was a most delightful companion and friend. The lives of the
two Amperes, written by Madame Chevreux, were reviewed in a
charming article in the Edinburgh.-ED.
* The Abb6 Gratry was a great preacher, and a liberal and
distinguished ecclesiastic.  He wrote several theological and
devotional books.-ED.




122


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Ampere.-I believe that Louis Napoleon's real
wish is, that the Pope should leave Rome, though
he and the Duc de Grammont, and General Guyon,
are forced to perform  the farce of urging him to
remain. Louis Napoleon cannot break with Mazzini.
He cannot break with the revolutionary party in
Italy or in France. He hates Mazzini and Garibaldi
as rivals, but he dreads them. Garibaldi gave him a
significant hint when he took into his service a
brother of Orsini.
Louis Napoleon has played several parts with
more or less success. In England he was a Conservative. So he professed to be as candidate for the
Presidency, so he professed to be in 1851. He made
the coup d'etat in the name of order and peace. He
raised the salaries of the priests, he begged the Pope
to crown him. The aristocracy were irreconcilable,
and he resumed the Socialism of his youth. He
artificially lowered the price of bread, he undertook
great works in order to give employment, he made
loans at absurdly low prices, and distributed them in
small portions among the people. Finding that little
was to be done by such means, he is now courting
the Revolutionists.  They are a minority among
Frenchmen, but they are a majority among French
politicians. The bulk of the people care nothing
about politics, except in times of excitement, and
then they fall into the hands of the revolutionary
party. Louis Napoleon sympathises with this party.
They both hate liberty; they both hate aristocracy.




1860.]


THE PASSION PLAY.


123


They both wish for a despot and all flat below him.
Jacobinism is his last card, and he will play it.
The Chateau is a palace built by Mansard for a
Prince de Conti.
The   reception-rooms  are  magnificent.  Our
dining-room was above sixty feet long, forty wide,
and twenty-five high. The park is large, and well
wooded. But it is in a disagreeable neighbourhood,
about a mile from the Barriere d'Issy, one of the
worst parts of France, and adjoins a most squalid
suburban town.
It has been bought by a Company for 80,0001.
They intend to pull down the Chateau, and sell the
park in lots for building.
The Chevreux are temporary tenants.
September 29th.-We breakfasted with Madame
Mohl. She returned yesterday from a tour in Germany and Hungary. Her first stage was Oberammergau in Bavaria. She spent some days there to
see the Mystery of the Passion, which has been performed there every ten years, ever since the eleventh
century.
The theatre is a gently sloping valley, in which
thousands can sit and hear. The scene consists of
houses, which represent indifferently a street in
Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, Pilate's Judgment Hall, and Calvary. The play begins at eight
in the morning, and lasts till four in the evening.




124


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Between the acts, tableaux vivans represent some of
the typical events of the Old Testament, such as the
sacrifice of Isaac, the brazen serpent-a chorus of
angels on the proscenium   explaining them. The
mystery opens by the entry of Christ into Jerusalem
on Palm Sunday, then follow all the events of the
week, ending with the resurrection.
Madame Mohl.-The acting was exceedingly fine,
the poses magnificent, and the words simple and
affecting. I was there for eight hours, and never
felt tired, and what on reflection surprised me, never
felt that there was the least profanation. It was a
realisation of the greatest event in history.  The
people about me were deeply affected, weeping,
sobbing, almost fainting, with emotion. The actors
and actresses probably followed a tradition of gestures
and tones which had been elaborated during 800
years; add to which, the inhabitants of this part of
Bavaria, near the mountains of the Tyrol, inherit art.
They live chiefly by a miniature sculpture in wood,
which is the best in the world, far better than that of
Switzerland.
I asked what were her impressions as to Hungary.
Madame Mohl.-That the people are good, but
that they are oppressed by a contemptible aristocracy.
From the time that the Hungarians committed the
folly of electing as their constitutional king the sovereign of countries more powerful in the aggregate
than Hungary is, they felt their constitution to be in




1860.]


THE HUNGARIAN NOBILITY.


125


danger, and tried to retain it by refusing to allow
any change whatever. They thought that if they
permitted any part to be touched, all would come
down, so that 1848 found the present generation in
the feudal state of the middle ages-a subservient
peasantry, tyrannised over by a high-spirited, gentlemanlike, ignorant, oppressive, and dissolute nobility.
We lived with my nephew-in-law, who is judge
and sous-prefet of the district of Koloska, which
contains the estates of the Archbishop of Koloska.
Though the see has possessed them for years, it has
done nothing for them; there are no roads, no
schools, no drainage, no embankment against the
floods. None of the duties of property have been
performed, while all its rights have been fully
exercised. A fine soil, a fine climate, and a fine
people, are all misused and neglected.
We went from time to time to balls given by the
nobles. The company consisted of nobles, that is,
by birth, but, in fact, men working for their breadlawyers, notaries, medical men, and government employes. It was the society of a country town, but I
never saw such grace of manner, not even in Paris.
As they talked only Hungarian I could not follow
them, but I fancy that I lost nothing, that their
conversation was as empty, silly, and low-minded as
their manners were good.
Sometimes people visited us who talked French.
Once the Rhine was mentioned; somebody asked,
'What is the Rhine?'   'Oh,' said the most intel



126


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


ligent man present, 'it is a river somewhere in
Germany.'
One young lady, after her first visit, told us all
her history. How she was in love with a young
man, how he was very handsome, how he was a
Protestant, how the archbishop's doctor out of jealousy
told it at the palace, and how the archbishop told her
father and her uncle that if she married a Protestant,
they would be turned out of office. 'So,' she said,
'I was forced to give him up, which was a great
shame; but the doctor shall get nothing by it. I
won't marry him, he does not come up to my chin.'
Another lady, also on her first visit, told us that
her husband had a mistress, and that she was advised
to divorce him, but that there would be great trouble
in dividing all the furniture, and sheets, and towels.
A  German employ6 said to me, 'I like the
Hungarians; they are so good-natured and agreeable.'
'Are they honest?' 'Oh, no,' he answered; 'they
do not know what honesty means.' 'Are they just?'
'Oh, no; they do not know what justice means. But
they are so patriotic. We Germans have nothing
like their patriotism.' ' It shows itself,' I said, ' I
suppose, in caring for the welfare of their people.'
' Not in the least,' he answered; ' it shows itself in
wearing the Hungarian dress, in talking the Hungarian language, and in lamenting the loss of their
privileges, above all, that of immunity from taxation.'
He showed me an order which he had just received
from Vienna. It was to inquire whether it were




1860.]


MADAME MOHL S BOOK.


127


true that boys were flying kites, painted black and
gold, in which case the kites were to be confiscated
and the boys punished.
In short, to visit Hungary is to walk into the
fourteenth century. It is more like Spain than any
other European country. In grace, and in utter
absence of education, the ladies put me in mind of
the Spanish women.
Senior.-What is the character of the priests?
Madame Mohl.-In the Koloska district, which is
Catholic, very bad; they almost all have children by
their housekeepers. The peasants, as far as I could
hear, are loyal to Austria. The Emperor and the
Imperial bureaucracy are their shield against the
feudal tyranny of the landlords.
Senior.-What did you find the feeling in Vienna
respecting the Emperor?
JIadame Mohl.-I had no good means of information. We had letters for many of the best people,
but we found that M. Mohl had been denounced as
an emissary of Louis Napoleon with a revolutionary
mission; we were afraid of compromising our acquaintances and did not deliver them.
I had heard that she was writing a book and
asked about it.
Madame Mohl.-Its peg will be Madame Recamier,
its substance will be a comparison of French and
English manners. I shall be forced, however, to
suppress much, for fear of offending relations.




128


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


Senior.-What is the story of Madame de Stiel's
liaison with Auguste Schlegel?
Madame Mohl.-It was not a liaison;             for  a
liaison there must be two parties. He was in love
with her, but she was not in love with him. Schlegel
lived with her as her son's tutor.       He rather 'affichkeed' his admiration for the mother as an excuse
for performing such an office for the son.      Barante,
also, was very much in love with her. Once when
he was leaving the house she wished for a parting
interview, but Schlegel was always in the way, so
she begged Madame Recamier to take possession of
Schlegel for a couple of hours. When the parting
was over, Madame Recamier asked Madame de Stael
how   it had gone off.    'A   ravir,' said  Madame de
Stael, 'nous etions tous les deux au desespoir.'
Here M. de Lomenie * joined us, and the conversation turned on the Revolution of 1848.
* Louis de Lomenie belonged to an ancient family, and was
born in 1818. He devoted himself from an early age to literature,
and published some biographical essays in 1840 in the Galerie des
Contemporains illustres, which made his reputation. He wrote
frequently in the Revie des Deux Mondes. His articles on Beaumarchais were afterwards published as a book. He was successively a Professor of Literature in the College du France and in
the Ecole Polytechnique. He was a stanch Orleanist, and would
accept of no appointment under the Empire. His conversation
was as full of grace and vivacity as his writings. He was elected
a member of the Academie Frangaise in 1871. He died in
1878.-ED.




1860.]


THE NATIONAL GUARD IN 1848.


129


Lomenie.-On the 24th of February, partly from
curiosity and partly in the hope of doing some good,
I accompanied the mob in their march on the Tuileries.
They were armed, some with guns and swords which
they had wrested from the soldiers, and some with
arms which they had seized in the repertoires of melodramatic theatres. By my side was a man armed to
the teeth, with helmet, sword, and pistols, plundered
from the Gymnase. Before us was a battalion of
National Guards. The commandant was a man of
few words, and with little variety of sentiment or expression.
From time to time, news was brought from  the
Tuileries. He always halted his battalion to hear it.
First, it was said that Thiers was no longer
minister.  ' C'est une opinion individuelle,' he answered, 'au pas ordinaire,-Marche!'
Then, that the King had abdicated.  'C'est une
opinion individuelle, au pas ordinaire,-Marche!'
Then, that the Duchess of Orleans was Regent.
'C'est une opinion individuelle, au pas ordinaire,Marche!'
At last we got to the Carousel, found that the
troops were leaving it, and the battalion and its singlespeech commander followed them.
My heavily armed companion and I were carried
into the chateau and up the staircase, by the crowd
behind and round us.
' Je crains,' he said to me, 'que tout ceci ne
tourne pas bien.'
VOL. I.                             K




130


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


I sympathised.
' Je crains,' he added, 'que ceci ne fasse pas aller
le commerce.'
I also assented.
'Tel que vous me voyez,' he continued, 'je suis
garqon de cafe. Je voudrais bien etre chez moi.'
We lost one another in the crowd at the top of the
staircase. Some were striving to get out, some to
come in. We were wedged in a mass. I was pressed
against a man with a long sword, which he held
before him.
'Take care,' I said to him, 'or you will poke my
eye out with that sword.'
'I am afraid,' he answered very piteously, ' that I
shall poke out my own. I know that swords are very
dangerous things, and as I had no sheath, I stuck the
point of mine into a bottle-cork, but the cork has
tumbled off. I cannot pick it up, and I am in constant fear that my sword will prick me or somebody
else.'
During all this time I heard nothing of the Republic. The only cry was 'La Reforwme!' The cry
of 'La Republique!' had not been heard during the
century.
Senior.-Not in 1830?
Lomenie.-If at all, only for an hour or two. It
was instantly stifled in the cry of 'La Charte!'
An odd attempt was made to familiarise the
people with the word. All Paris was informed on
the 25th of February, that the slain of the previous




1860.]


VIVE LA REPUBLIQUE.1


131


day were to be seen in the great salon of the Hotel
de Ville. I went with the rest to see them. Sentinels
were at the door, who let us in three by three. There
we found five or six hundred bodies, naked, lying in
rows on the long table on which Robespierre lay
wounded on the 9th Thermidor.
A man at the door addressed each party of three
as it came in, in the following worls:
' Ce n'est pas pour ' La Reforme  que nous avons
combatt?/.  C'est pour  La Republique."  J'en atteste
ces cadavres.  Citoyens, criez, " Vive la Republique" '
My two companions, honest charbonniers, as black
as their own charcoal, who had been crying ' Vive la
Reforme!' for three days and perhaps were not quite
sober, did not pay much attention, and mechanically
called ' Vive la Reforme!'
'Vive la Republique!' cried the man.
'Oui, oui,' they repeated, 'Vive la Reforme.' So
they were hustled out as quickly as possible lest their
bad example should be contagious. 
When we had got out of the Hotel de Ville into the
Place, we found a circle, whom a man was haranguing
against the Provisional Government, then   sitting
within.
' What does a great enlightened nation like this,'
he said, ' ant with a government?  Why cannot we
govern ourselves?  Why should we take half-a-dozen
talkers out of the street, or out of the Assembly, and
submit to them?   I am  for turning them out and
doing without a government.'




132


CONVERSATIONS.


[1860.


When he had done, I addressed them. I was
taken for an Ecolier, for I wore a little grey capote,
the costume of the old Ecoliers who cannot pass their
examinations and get their degrees by mere time.
The Ecoliers were popular in that quarter, so they
listened to me.
'I utterly differ from the honourable citizen,' I
said; 'I wish for a government. I wish for one so
much, that rather than not have one, I would even
take the honourable citizen himself for my governor.'
'Et pourquoi pas moi,' he replied, 'aussi bien
qu'un autre?'
There was a laugh, and the circle broke up.
September 29th.-We spent the day at A —
A. B. C.-Louis Napoleon's policy is adventurous
without having been premeditated, and tortuous
without being prudent. He is like a bad billiardplayer, who, without any definite object, makes a
violent stroke, in the hope that if the balls are
all set running about the table, one of them may
fall into a pocket. The result is, that he has so
'embrouillees les choses,' that the next act in this
tragedy, whatever be its nature, must be one full of
danger. He may get through these dangers, but he
will have to run them.
I think that his wisest plan would be to protect
Rome and the person of the Pope, but for the present
not to interfere further.  Garibaldi and Piedmont will
attack Austria; they will be beaten. Austria will be




1860.] ITALIAN POLICY OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


133


able and willing to execute the Treaty of Zurich; to
restore the sovereigns of Parma, Modena, and Tuscany; to give back the estates of the Church to the
Pope, and Naples to its King. All this, or nearly all
this, he ought to allow; only requiring from the
restored sovereigns some necessary reforms. Austria
will also be able to retake Lombardy. This I think
that he ought not to suffer,-at least he ought not to
allow her to retake it for herself. He ought to require
Austria to unite Lombardy and Venetia into an
independent principality, under the Archduke Maximilian, if it is thought best, to serve as a counterpoise to Piedmont.
Perhaps to make this more palatable to Piedmont,
he may require that she be allowed to keep Parma
and Modena. Piedmont, the new Principality, Tuscany, the Pope, and Naples, might then form a confederacy-a bund-the only union of which I believe
them to be capable. We should keep Savoy and Nice,
and we should have-what we ought to have on our
south-eastern frontier-weak, divided neighbours,
instead of one formidable King of Italy.
This, I think, would be his wisest conduct. But
it is subject to two great objections. One of them is,
that Italy would be replaced under the Austrian yoke:
Austria would have in the Confederacy four votes out
of five. She would have far more than her former
influence, for she would have it legally. This would
be a melancholy contrast to the programme of
1859.




134


CONVERSATIONS.


[1iG0.


The other objection is personal. It is the danger
to Louis Napoleon from the Italian daggers.   The
feelings which drove Orsini against him in 1858,
would be fiercer than ever.  There would be more
attentats, and one of them might succeed.  His escape
from Orsini was almost miraculous.
Still I think that this is the least dangerous exit
from the position into which his folly has led us.
For that very reason I think that it is the least probable one.
I believe that he will assist Piedmont against
Austria, in which case a general war, in which you
will have to take part, seems to me inevitable.
I think that such a war will begin early, for I do
not think that Germany will allow   Austria to be
beaten before she engages herself. But if she do, the
next step will be to place Murat on the Neapolitan
throne.  The papers on that subject reveal the whole
plot.
First, Murat says that he does not wish for the
throne; but that if it is offered to him, his sense of
duty will prevent his refusing it.
Then the Garibaldi party proclaim that the Emperor cannot permit so flagrant a violation of the law
of nations.
Then the JIoniteur answers that so unlimited is
the Emperor's devotion to universal suffrage, that he
cannot refuse to   acknowledge its validity, even
though it should be used to give a throne to his
cousin.




1860.]  HIS WORDS TO BE READ BACKWARDS.


135


Will Europe submit to this?  Will she be complaisant enough to let Murat also have Sicily?
If all this be submitted to, will she see us take the
Rhine?
At whatever step the forbearance of Europe is
exhausted-and exhausted it will be-the general
war begins.
I do not attach much importance to the reinforcements sent to Guyon.
We cannot leave Rome while the Pope remains
there; and our force ought to be sufficient, not only
to keep off the Piedmontese, but to oblige them, if it
be necessary, to obey our orders.
Nor do I attach much to Louis Napoleon's advice.
to Farini and Cialdini,-to do their work quickly. It
was necessary to stop Garibaldi. Cavour may perhaps
not be the tool that I suspect him to be, but he has
common sense-he is manageable. Garibaldi is a fool,
and one of those dangerous fools who do not suspect
their own ignorance. But I do attach importance to
the presence in the revolutionary armies of not less
than six of Louis Napoleon's cousins. I attach importance to his protestations against the aggressions
of Piedmont, and to his asseverations that if she
attack Austria, and is beaten, he will leave her to her
fate. His words are like witches' prayers, they are
always to be read backwards. Above all, I found my
conjectures on my intimate knowledge of his character,
of his restless, irrational reveries, of his hunger for
change and excitement.




136              CONVERSATIONS.          [1860.
In the spring he amused himself with the annexation of Savoy, then with intrigues in Germany, then
with a tour of triumphal arches, addresses, and deifications. In October and November there will be reaction, the excitement will be followed by depression.
He will smoke and scheme, publish some absurd
pamphlet in December, and commit some extravagance on the first of January.
September 30th.-We left Paris.




1861.
[Soon after Mr. Senior left France in the preceding
year, the Sardinian troops, under Victor Emmanuel,
entered the kingdom   of Naples (October 15th,
1860).
But while Rome and Venice were still severed
from the rest of Italy, Garibaldi did not consider his
work as accomplished, and it was with great mortification that he found himself obliged to yield to men
of more moderate views, bid farewell to his army, and
retire to his home in the island of Caprera. The first
Italian Parliament assembled at Turin in the following February.
Extreme distress was at this time prevalent in the
manufacturing districts of England, on account of the
American war, which stopped the supply of cotton.
There had long been a growing hostility between the
Northern and Southern States. The North was far
more prosperous and populous than the South, and
the principles adopted by its candidates for the Presidency were diametrically opposed to those put forward by the South, which advocated the institution
of slavery and free trade, while the North was for




138


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


limiting the area of slavery and for a highly protective
tariff. At length, on the election of the Northern or
Republican candidate, President Lincoln, in 1860,
seven of the Southern States determined on secession,
and elected Mr. Jefferson Davis as the President in
the following February. On the 12th of April, the
Southern forces attacked and carried Fort Sumter,
four other States joined the Southern Confederates,
and civil war began.
On the 4th of February, the Emperor delivered a
remarkable speech to the French Chambers. He said:
' I have decided that every year a general statement
of the situation of the Empire should be placed before
you, and that the more important diplomatic despatches should be laid before your bureaux. You
can also, in your Address, express your opinions on
the facts of the day; not, as formerly, by a simple
paraphrase of the Speech from the Throne, but by
the free and loyal expression of your opinion...
Exhaust, gentlemen, during the vote on the Address,
all points of discussion according to the proportion
of their importance, that you may have the power
afterwards to devote yourselves entirely to the affairs
of the country; for if these points demand a
profound and conscientious examination, the other
interests in their turn impatiently expect prompt
decisions.'
This approach to freedom of debate was hailed
with great satisfaction by all parties.
On the 1st of March, Prince Napoleon made a




1861.]


FRENCH OPINION OF ENGLAND.


139


very fine speech defending the Imperial policy, and
about a fortnight afterwards an answer was published
to it by the Duc d'Aumale, in the form of a letter to
the Emperor, so strongly expressed that it almost
amounted to a challenge. —ED.]
H6tel Bedford, Paris.  Thursday, March 28.We slept at Amiens on Tuesday, and reached Paris
by two o'clock on Wednesday.      The only thing
worth recording on the journey was a conversation
between two elderly Frenchmen.
'I think,' said one, 'we shall have war with
Russia.   Poland  will rise, and   we must help
her.'
' I hope not,' said the other. 'I should not dislike
a war, but I had rather it be la bas. Les Russes
sont de braves gens, les Anglais sont une Canaille.
Us nous ont horriblement dupe'.    Mais  Napoleon
le sait.  11 en finira avec eux, aussitot qu'il est
pret, il les enfoncera joliment.  II les coupera en
deux. '
On my arrival I went to Guizot's. Only Monsieur and Madame de Witt * were at home.
De Witt.-You will find    Paris more animated
than it has been for years. We are enjoying this
shadow of parliamentary life as the Roman slaves did
their saturnalia.


* M. Guizot's son-in-law and daughter.-ED.




140


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-I hope that it will last longer.
De Witt.-I think that it will. As yet, however,
it interests only the higher classes, and of them, only
the politicians. Odillon Barrot and Thiers are to be
candidates at the next election. The people take no
part in it, and until they have done so Louis Napoleon
may revoke the liberty which was given by him, not
extorted; but I do not think that at present he is
dissatisfied. The clerical party and the Rouges have
shown their colours, and disgusted all sensible people.
Prince Napoleon's speech created a scission even
among the Bonapartists.   The old 'parti de l'ordre,'
which prizes tranquillity above all things, which
would not buy liberty, or even glory, at the expense
of a new revolution, is being re-created. That speech
drew up a veil. It told the Rouges what they had
to hope, it told the Moderates what they had to
fear.
Senior.-Was Keller's speech very good?
De Witt.-Admirable.    It was so skilful, that its
tendency was not at first perceived. An Imperialist
deputy, a friend of mine, said to his neighbour, 'It is
a pity that so good a speaker should be opposed to
us.' 'Is he,' said the other, 'opposed to us?   I
don't think so.'  It was not until Billault complained of the bitterness of the attack that the
greater part of the Chamber saw there had been an
attack.
Another advantage which Louis Napoleon has
obtained is, that he has ascertained that France is as




1861.] THE ATTENTAT DEMORALISED THE EMPEROR. 141


much opposed to Italian unity as he is, though,
perhaps, on different grounds. We are opposed
to it because we do not wish for a powerful
neighbour.
Senior.-That neighbour would be under your
influence.
De Witt.-Only as long as she fears Austria,
which will be only as long as Austria fears her. Let
Venetia be once sold or ceded or become independent,
and Austria and Piedmont having nothing to fight
about will be united by their common dread of France.
These, however, are not Louis Napoleon's motives;
he cares for nothing but himself and his family. He
admitted to a friend of mine that he would have
stopped the Piedmontese if he had dared, but he said,
'J'aurais ete renverse, vous ne savez pas ce que ce
sont que les societes secretes.'  By ' renverse he meant
assassinated, for there is no political power that can
overturn him.   Without doubt he is brave, but
as other brave men, Cromwell, for instance, have
done, he fears assassination. It was not so in the
beginning; as President, and even as Emperor, he
defied the Carbonari daggers, but Orsini's bombs
deroralised him. He broke out into the extravagant
complaints of England, which first opened your eyes.
He ordered Persigny to terrify you into passing an
alien act. He coquetted with Orsini, and tried to
pardon him. He made the infamous 'Loi de surete
pvblique,' and sent thousands of innocent men to die
in Cayenne and Lambressa.  He fears their relations




142


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


and friends, and, above all, he fears the Carbonari,
for he has been one. He wants, too, his portion of
Italy.
Senior.-Genoa?
De Witt. —No; Naples for the Murats.
Senior.-I thought that Murat was an unproducible candidate.
De Witt.-Achille Murat, but not his son, who is
a charming young man-intelligent, amiable, and
with excellent manners.  The Bonapartes have left
good recollections in Naples. Joseph was far above
the average of kings in talents, and knowledge, and
good intentions; and King Joachim, though a bad
politician, was kind and popular, and had the dash,
the 'elan,' which delights a southern people  Then
the Neapolitans hate the Piedmontese as cold, harsh,
and overbearing. The people care nothing for liberty
or for Italy; the higher nobility are Bourbonists:
they prefer a Murat to a Piedmontese, because, like
all bad politicians, they are governed by precedent.
They expect the Bonapartes to fall in France, and
then to fall everywhere else, as they did in 1815, and
fancy that Naples left vacant will be restored to the
Bourbons, which it could not be if a part of the
kingdom   of Italy.  If Piedmont were to resist,
nothing would be more popular than a war against
her. France hates her for her selfish ingratitude,
for her claims to share our military glories. 'Nos
soldats ne prennent pas l'armee Piedmontaise czu
serievx.' They say that it did nothing in the Crimea,




1861.]


THE PIEDMONTESE ARMY.


143


and worse than nothing in Italy. A General Valency,
whom I know, is aide-de-camp to Baraguay d'Hilliers.
When the battle of Solferino was clearly won, Baraguay resolved to pursue the enemy. He sent Valency
to La Marmora;       'Faites lui,' he said, 'mon compliment, and    say  that I intend    to  advance.'    So
Valency galloped off and delivered his message.       ' II
n'y a pas de quoi complimenter,' said La Marmora.
Guizot now came in. He asked about English
news, and especially about Mrs. Austin,* from whom
* Mr. and Mrs. John Austin were amongst the oldest and
most intimate friends of Mr. Senior.
John Austin, born in 1790, was the eldest son of Mr. Jonathan
Austin of Creeting in Suffolk. His younger brother, Charles, was
more conspicuous than himself for brilliant success at the bar;
but in learning and power of intellect John had no rival. He
entered the army in early life, and served under Lord William
Bentinck with the British troops in Sicily: something of military
precision hung about him through life. But on returning to
England he retired from the army and read for the bar. As a
practising advocate he had no success. But he devoted himself
the more earnestly to the study of the philosophy of jurisprudence,
and in this branch of his profession he attained to eminence.
Living in Westminster, next door to Mr. Bentham, he formed a
close intimacy with the Radical lawyer and politician of the
Westminster school, whose opinions he shared.   Upon the
foundation of the London University he was elected to the
Professorship of Jurisprudence there; and he repaired to Germany to prepare the course of lectures which he subsequently
delivered. These lectures formed the basis of his work, entitled




144


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


he had just received the new edition of Austin's
Jurisprudence.
the Province of Jurisprudence, which was completed from  his
notes by his wife after his death.
He held at one time the office of a Commissioner to digest
the Criminal Law, and in 1836 he was sent to Malta, with Mr.
Cornwall Lewis, to report on the affairs of that island. But his
previous health, and a certain morbid tendency of mind, disqualified him from taking a sustained and successful part in
public affairs. His later years were spent in Dresden, in Paris,
and at Weybridge, where he died. His reputation as a powerful
thinker, writer, and jurist, has increased since his death. In
conversation few men could surpass the energy, variety, and
perspicuity of his language; and it was a constant subject of
regret to his friends, that with such talents and such acquirements, the result was comparatively small.
In 1819 John Austin married Sarah, youngest daughter of
Mr. John Taylor of Norwich, a woman remarkable alike for the
graces of her person, the cultivation of her intellect, and the
buoyancy of her character. She took her place at once in the
brilliant, though somewhat dogmatical society of Queen's Square;
and although the means at her disposal were always very limited,
she contrived through life to make her drawing-room the resort of
all that was most distinguished and attractive in the society of
her time, both in this country and abroad. The Grotes, the
Mills, Lord Lansdowne, the Romillys, Sidney Smith, Hallam and
Senior, were her most intimate friends; and in Germany and
France she was equally popular.
Her literary works were chiefly confined to translations from
the French and German, on which she was incessantly employed.
But her admirable English style imparted to her translations the
value of originals; and in Ranke's History of the Popes, she gave
to English literature a work of the highest order and merit. She
survived her husband some years, dying in 1867, and devoted




1861.] SEPARATION OF THE UNITED STATES.


145


Guizot.-I have not read it, but I expect much
instruction from  it.  Austin had one of the most
comprehensive, the most accurate, and the most
original minds that I have ever come in contact
with. I do not know a more masterly state paper
than his last work, A Plea for the Constitution.
What do you hear from      America?    I suppose
that in England you are delighted with the
separation.
Senior.-If the separation can be peaceable, if the
two, or perhaps the more numerous confederacies can
live together in peace, we shall not regret it. They
will keep one another in order.   The old union was
showing the vices of an unchecked democracy; it
was insolent, aggressive, and selfish.  It has broken
up through its own vices, because the South wished
to sacrifice everything to slavery, and the North
everything to protection.
Guizot.-We regret the separation. The insolence
and aggressiveness of the Old Union was excited only
against its neighbours, you, Mexico, and Spain. Its
protective tariff did not affect France, whose peculiar
exports America cannot rival, and as a formidable
herself with success to the arrangement and publication of his
unfinished papers.
Lucy, the only child of John and Sarah Austin, married to
Sir Alexander Duff Gordon in 1840, also left a name in literature
and society, for she inherited much of the talent and the style of
her accomplished parents.-ED.
VOL. I.                                 L




146


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


naval power she kept you in check. Now you will
have your own way with the Southern Confederacy.
You will be their greatest customers. They have
already abolished their navigation laws, which will
give you the monopoly of their carrying trade. They
will have neither a mercantile nor a military navy.
The North must reduce hers. You will be masters
in America, and you cannot expect us to like that.
Are you still as Italian as ever?
Senior.-Quite; partly, perhaps, because though
you are Unionists in America you are anti-Unionists
in Italy.
Guizot.-I own that I neither wish for Italian
unity, nor expect it. The only real Italian Unionists
are Piedmont, Tuscany, Modena, Parma, and the Romagna. I doubt whether Lombardy wishes for union,
I know that Naples does not. We shall perhaps see
the denouement in a year.  Piedmont will attack
Venetia and be beaten; we shall save her, and shall
ask for Naples as our pay. You and Holland, and
Norway and Sweden, are the only tranquil parts of
Europe. Belgium knows that she exists only by suffrance, Denmark expects both foreign and civil war,
Turkey is dying, Poland is demanding something
resembling free institutions, and will extort it; Russia
will claim from her emperor whatever is given to
Poland. The old reverence for the Czar is gone; the
government has deprived the nobles of many of their
privileges and much of their property. Prussia is
intriguing against Austria and aiming at the leader



1861.] QUEEN VICTORIA AND QUEEN ISABELLA. 147


ship of Germany, the Austrian government is hated
by all its neighbours, and by almost all its subjects.
Spain is perhaps the only really loyal country on the
Continent.
Senior.-Is Spain loyal to such a queen?
Guizot. —The great use of a constitution is to
make good sovereigns out of bad men and women.
Senior. —Still, it cannot efface the difference.
Where should we now be if for the last twenty-four
years we had been governed by a Stuart?
Guizot. —Queen Victoria is an exception to all
rulers, and so were the two last Stuarts. Between
the best possible sovereigns and the worst the difference is certainly enormous. But Queen Isabella is
far from being one of the worst.  Her morals are not
pure, nor were those of the Empress Catharine; but
after her own fashion she is religious and constitutional, and does not suit the Spaniards ill.
I drank tea with Madame de Circourt. We talked
first of the memoir and letters of Tocqueville.
Circourt.-We are very anxious to see what Mrs.
Grote and Mr. Reeve, who knew him     so well and
valued him so highly, will say about him. Portraits
of Frenchmen by Englishmen are always valuable.
They see everything from a different point of view.
Madame de Circourt praised Beaumont's memoir.
I said that I thought the spirit of it charming. I
complained of his ultra-discretion.




148


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Circourt.-Can a contemporary biographer be too
discreet?
Senior.-I will give you an instance. In a letter
in the autumn of 1858 there are two lines of asterisks.
I have seen the original; the sentence left out is,
' Milnes is with us, and has brought with him Arthur
Russell; he is a very pleasing and intelligent young
man.'
We soon went to politics.
Madame de Circourt.-Is your volunteer mania as
fierce as ever?
Senior.-Certainly, and I hope that it will increase.  We have 150,000 volunteers now; next
year we shall have 200,000, and in case of invasion
500,000.
Madame de Circourt.-You yourself do not participate in the fears, which I will venture to call
absurd, of invasion.
Senior.-My fears depend on the adequacy of our
preparations to resist one. If we render its success
impossible, there will be none; if it appear to you to
be practicable, I believe that the attempt will be made.
Madame de Circourt.-What are your grounds of
belief?  The French are not robbers or pirates.
M. de Boissy does not represent us.*      Our wish
* This refers to an absurd speech insulting England. The
Marquis de Boissy was the second husband of the celebrated
Countess Guiccioli, Byron's friend.-ED.




1861.]


INVASION OF ENGLAND.


149


is to be on good terms with you, if you will allow
us.
Senior.-I am not thinking about the French;
the will of the French has nothing to do with the
matter, or rather you have no will of your own.
You have absolutely surrendered yourselves, and all
your will, and almost all your opinions, and all your
conduct, into the hands of one man, not a Frenchman
by race or by education or by feelings, -an Italian
conspirator, with a wild imagination, extravagant
wishes and plans, and an unsound judgment. Nothing would gratify his vanity so much as to issue a
bulletin from London.
Madame de Circourt.-It is true that you have
given him sufficient provocation. You have opposed
all his plans of aggrandisement; you are avowedly
arming for a war with him.
Senior.-Of course we are, because we know that
he is arming and for what purpose. We are in the
state of a man who knows that his opposite neighbour
is collecting materials and hiring ruffians for the
purpose of burning down his house, pillaging his
property, and murdering his children. We shall owe
to him, I hope, that we again become a military
nation.
Circourt.-Well, I hate him as much as you do,
and with more reason, for he is only alarming you,
while he is degrading and demoralising us. But I
think that you do him injustice in one respect; I
believe that he is friendly to you.




1.50


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-You put me in mind of the answer of a
New Zealand chief to the question how he liked the
English Governor: ' Him like him very much; if
him catch him, him eat him.'
Mladame de Circourt.-And are you as Italian as
ever?
Senior.-Quite.
Madamne de Circourt.-In order to give us another
enemy?
Senior.-I believe that our sympathy with the
Italians is really unselfish, but we shall not be
sorry to see the Great Powers increased from five
to six.
Circourt.-My suspicion is, that Louis Napoleon's
preparations are directed not so much against you
as against Naples. Copying, as he always tries to
do, his uncle, he intends to put young Murat there.
The first obstacle was the king. He sent Garibaldi
to revolutionise Sicily, to drive him from his capital,
and to excite a civil war which should give an opportunity of occasioning a Muratist demonstration, and
enable a French fleet to carry Murat to Naples as the
'elu du people.' Garibaldi and Cialdini were too
quick for him, though he prolonged the resistance
of Gaeta until he was forced to yield to general disapprobation, and perhaps to the fear of the Carbonaro
dagger.
But though foiled for the present, he has not
given up his scheme. His agents are actively exciting discontent and insurrection in the Neapolitan




1861.]


PROBABLE FATE OF ROME.


151


dominions. He will not quit Rome, and still less
Civita Vecchia; his army and fleet are there, ready
for a coup de main.   They can lie in the Bay of
Naples, for the purpose of preserving order and protecting French subjects and French property, within
twenty-four hours after the Lazzaroni have been hired
to proclaim Joachim II. King of Naples. Victor
Emmanuel has set the example.      He invaded a
friendly country and dethroned a friendly sovereign,
in obedience to what he called the will of the
Neapolitan people. Louis Napoleon will say that
the Neapolitan people have changed their minds, and
that, as the Piedmontese army entered Naples in
order to give effect to their former wishes, so the
French army enters Naples merely to give effect to
their present wishes.
Senior.-Will the Pope leave Rome?
Circourt.-That depends on Corcelle. Corcelle's
high character and sincere affection for the Pope and
for the papacy give him  unlimited ascendancy. I
doubt Corcelle's advising the Pope to take an irrevocable step. Victor Emmanuel, too, ought perhaps
to try to keep the Pope. As long as he is in Rome
the Romans will wish for the Piedmontese. If he
should go they will hate their new fellow-subjects
and their new masters, and regret that Rome is no
longer the centre of Christendom.
March 29th.-I drank tea with M. de Lamartine.
The other persons present were two gentlemen,




152


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


one of them a M. Pelletan, and three ladies. Madame
de Lamartine was in bed.
A hall has been opened for the delivery of lectures
on Social Science. There is no discussion, that being
illegal. The lecturer sits on a platform and speaks.
pn Monday, M. Pelletan lectured on la propriete.
Lamartine praised the ability of the lecturer and the
attention of the audience.
Pelletan.-They were of many different nuances.
Some Orleanists, such as d'Haussonville, some Legitimists, many students from the Ecole Polytechnique;
but the bulk consisted of those who were the Republicans and Rouges of 1848. Almost all the leaders
of 1848, who are not dead or in exile, were present.
They are now altered men. When the next revolution comes, you will find them firm but moderate
Republicans.
* Born in 1813, the son of a notary, M. Pelletan began life as
a law student. In 1837, he wrote his first articles and criticisms
for La France litteraire, and, in 1839, began his long and important
contributions to the Presse, which, however, he often interrupted,
and changed from one paper to another, in order that he might
write for the publication which, at the time, advocated the most
strongly the cause of liberty. In 1863 he entered upon a parliamentary career, was elected deputy, joined the Republican opposition, and made several brilliant speeches. He was the chief
editor of the Tribune.  In 1870 he was a member of the
Government for the 'National defence,' and employed himself
usefully during the siege. In 1871 he joined M. Jules Simon
in attempting to reconcile the views of the Provinces with those
of Paris, and has continued to belong to the Left in the National
Assembly.-ED.




1861.]    LAMARTINE ON PUBLIC SPEAKING.      153
When you, M. de Lamartine, had left the hall,
they stood round me, talking of you, and of 1848,
and of the scene before the Hotel de Ville. ' We
came,' they said, 'determined to overthrow the Provisional Government, and Lamartine as its head. But
we were children in his hands. We were cowed when
he reproved us, proud when he praised us, and
obedient when he commanded us.'
Lamartine.-I have addressed different audiences,
but the only one worth talking to c'est la foule.
In an assembly your friends, or rather your party,
treat the debate as a game, yourself as a piece, or as a
pawn, and your speech as a move; your adversaries
think of you only as an enemy, and of your speech
only as a thing to be refuted. The rest, the impartial
part of the audience, go to the debate as they go to an
opera, consider your speech as a work of art offered to
them as a subject for criticism, and praise you or
blame you as they have been bored or amused. No one
changes his opinion; no one is convinced; no one is
even moved. The best speech does not alter a vote.
It merely renders the vote, which every hearer had
premeditated to give, more or less pleasant to him.
No one cares whether the speaker is or is not sincere.
It is well known, indeed, that he must often be insincere, since he speaks, not his own opinions, but those
of his party, or rather those which it suits his party
to profess for the time being. No one cares for their
truth. What is wanted is that they be plausible, and
afford a good excuse for the vote.




154


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


La foule is sincere. It comes to you for information and counsel.   The first, almost the only
quality which it demands from you, is sincerity. You
may reproach it, you may laugh at it, you may run
counter to its prejudices —it will bear anything from
you while it believes you to be honestly anxious to
give it good advice. But beware how you are found
out in flattering it. Beware how you are found out
in saying anything which it believes to be insincere.
That instant your influence is gone. Inferior men
may be powerful mob-orators, if they have the same
prejudices and feelings as their hearers. They reveal
to every man that he is sympathised with by them,
and sympathised with by his neighbours. They
render every folly contagious.  They  strengthen
wrong opinions, and excite passions already too
violent.
The real triumph and the real usefulness is not to
stimulate, but to moderate, to control, to alter, and
often to reverse. So far as I effected these things, or
any of these things, before the Hotel de Ville, I was
useful.
It is remarkable that there is a sort of dualism in
a speaker's mind. However eager, however impassioned you may be, you hear from behind you a quiet,
impartial voice, judging, censuring, and advising;
whispering to you an impartial commentary, generally
of blame or of warning. 'That argument,' it says,
'is false; that fact is exaggerated, you do not believe
what you are saying, and they will find it out; you




1861.]


DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.


155


have said enough on this subject,-keep away from
that subject.' The voice never comes from before you;
the whisperer seems to be perched on your shoulder,
with his mouth close to your ear. He never leaves
you. In your fiercest emotion, 'dans tout I'abandon
et toutes les temerites de votre eloquence,' whether
you are bursting with anger and indignation or
intoxicated by the sympathy and cheers of your
audience, the cold, equable voice pursues you, and
directs and restrains without interrupting you. There
is, as I said before, a dualism in your mind. You
are at the same instant the fervid, impetuous orator
and the calm, unexcited critic.
Senior.-The debate on the Address shows that
your speakers have not degenerated.
Lamartine.-Kolb and Billault were good, and
Keller was admirable.   He is a young Alsatian,
scarcely thirty years old, of good family and fortune.
He went from the Ecole Polytechnique to the army,
and was a sous-lieutenant when he fell in love with
his present wife. Her father, a man of high station in
Alsace, could make only one objection to the match.
He did not wish his daughter to be the wife of a sousofficier, and asked Keller to make the sacrifice of his
epaulette. Keller, though fond of his profession, consented, married, and took to the life of a country
gentleman.
He is very religious, —was deceived by Louis
Napoleon's early professions of attachment to the
Church, and became an Imperialist. In this cha



CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


racter he was brought forward by the Government at
the last election for the Corps Legislatif, and came in
triumphantly.  He prepared his speech    carefully,
wrote it out and gave it to a friend who was to be
near and prompt him.   But as he went on, his views
altered. He changed the order, the language, and
even the substance of his speech. From a recitation
it became an improvisation. The allusion to Orsini
was a 'coup de theatre.' The letter," so celebrated
three years ago, had been forgotten; and when, after
reading it, he named the writer, the whole chamber,
Imperialists and all, were electrified, and yet in the
written speech it was introduced in a different way.
A man who can do such things has a great political
avenir.
Senior.-Was Jules Favre good?
Lamartine. —Not for him. He was timid, did not
venture to let out his whole mind, and was cowed by
the hostility of the Chamber. He does not belong to
any of the parties. He is neither Popish, Catholic,
Orleanist, Legitimist, nor Bonapartist. He is one of
the small knot of Republicans.
Senior.-Will this freedom of speech last?
Lamartine.-Impossible. France has spoken out.
She has told Paris that she disapproves Celui-ci'st
policy, and Paris will tell the story to the provinces.
A sovereign so slightly rooted, stained in 1851, in
* The letter was from Orsini to Louis Napoleon.-ED.
t Louis Napoleon,-ED.




1861.]


RELIGION IN FRANCE.


157


1852, and in 1858, by such cruelties, disgraced by
the friponnerie of the court, hated and denounced by
the Church, ridiculed by the chiefs of the army, and
served by ministers whom neither he nor the nation
trusts, cannot endure public discussion. The publication of the debates will be prohibited. The Corps
Legislatif will become hostile, it will be dissolved.
Senior.-I hear that Thiers and Odillon Barrot
will be candidates at the next election. Will you be
one?
Lamartine.-It is out of the question. My political
life is ended.  I am henceforth a mere litterateur;
earning my bread painfully and diligently, and I hope
usefully, by my pen. I have not taken the oath, and
I never will take it.
Well, to continue my prophecy, the next Assembly
will be more hostile than this has been. When this
Chamber was elected, the Church supported him, now
it execrates him: by that time it will have excommunicated him. Those who think that France is
irreligious are mistaken. The towns are irreligious,
especially Paris; that is to say, the men are irreligious,
the women are not; and there is no country in which
they have such influence. The irreligion of even the
men is principally a dislike of the troublesome observances of Catholicism.  They hate confession,
penance, and fasting. But they respect Christianity.
No respectable man would take an unbelieving wife.
And they value the Papacy. They think that the
spiritual power of the Pope is a moderator of the




158


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


temporal despotism, to bend under which seems to be
our normal condition. The Emperor cannot again dissolve; it would be useless. He must abolish. There
will be another coup d'etat. He will deprive us of even
this shadow of parliamentary government. By that
time, or perhaps six months after, he will be again at
war, and his war will be revolutionary, for the general
and growing distrust will unite all sovereigns against
him. We shall find ourselves again where we were in
1793, opposed to all Europe. Mais c'est impossible
d'avoir un Quatre-vingt-treize au dehors sans avoir un
Quatre- vingt- treize au-dedans.  You and  he are
trampling on all treaties, on all established rights, on
all the traditional maxims, which form what is called
'the law of nations.' You are breaking with the past.
You, perhaps, can afford to be revolutionary abroad
and conservative at home.   Such seems to be the
opinion of your statesmen.   But he cannot.   He
must throw himself into the hands of the Rouges.
We shall have a far more frightful revolution than
that of 1848. We shall have such a revolution as that
of 1848 would have been if the Rouges had-as they
were more than once on the point of doing-overthrown the Conservative Republicans.
Senior.-I admit that in giving our moral support
to the union of Italy, we have sanctioned the violation
of treaties, of rights, and of international law. I
regret that such great sacrifices should have been
necessary. But the object was also a great one.
Lamartine.-Not au point de vue Franqais. You




1861.]


EFFECT OF AN UNITED ITALY.


159


cannot expect a Frenchman to see with pleasure a
great power rising on our south-eastern frontier.
Senior.-I was thinking of the interests of Italy,
not of ours, or of yours. But I believe that it would
be good for even your own selfish interests to have a
powerful neighbour.   With your aggressive propensities, you are much too strong even for your own
welfare. Absolute power, or greatly preponderant
power, is dangerous to everybody, and most of all to
its possessor. You have more than once sacrificed
your liberty to the means of gaining it, or of retaining it.
Saturday, March 30th.-Madame Mohl and I went
this morning to see the Emperor's model of a Roman
trireme. If constructed, as I suppose it is, according
to our best information, it shows that the Roman
trireme was a considerable vessel. It is forty metres,
or about 250 feet long, and five metres, or about
thirty-one feet broad.  There are two decks, the
lower about three feet below the main-deck, just
high enough to allow the men to sit and row. Two
ranks of men placed thus * *  * * * * a, sit on the
lower deck, and one rank on the higher. The fighting men stand on a ledge about six feet wide, raised
four feet above the higher deck, running along each
side of the vessel, protected by a bulwark about four
feet high. Each of the ranks of rowers contains
twenty-three men, so that there are 126 oars in all.
In the centre is a single small mast, capable of




160


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


carrying one large sail. I could not learn the rate
at which 126 men could force such a mass through
the still water; I doubt whether they could drive
her through the tideless Mediterranean at the rate of
more than four miles an hour.
It is an interesting model, and explains well what
a trireme may have been, but leaves unexplained the
structure of a pentecontor.
Duvergier called on us, and was soon followed by
General Changarnier. We talked, as every one does,
of the debate.
Duvergier.-It has been mischievous to Louis
Napoleon. It has shown the incompetence of his
ministers, it has shown the power of the religious
party, it has forced the Government to end by giving
promises which it began by refusing. And what was
the consequence? As soon as Louis Napoleon had
given to France a pledge that he would continue to
hold Rome for the Pope, the Turin parliament declared Rome to be their capital. If this was done,
as everybody believes, with Louis Napoleon's consent,
what treachery on his part; if it was done without
his consent, what a defiance on their part; and
whether done with or without his consent, what an
insult. Everybody feels that he is degrading himself
before the priests in France, and before the Carbonari
in Italy. Keller's speech was a wound which will be
long before it heals, and will remain a brand when
it has healed. His prestige is going, or rather, the




1861.] CHARACTER OF THE FRENCH RECRUITS.  161


talent, and far-sightedness, and decision which he
appeared to show from 1849 to 1854 are discovered
to have been a mere prestige. They were inspired
by bolder, more sagacious, and resolute men. Since
he lost Drouyn de Lhuys he has struggled and
foundered from blunder to blunder. He has managed
to incur, and to appear to deserve, the most inconsistent reproaches.  You hate him  because you
think that he has threatened and deceived you; we
think that he has been meanly subservient to you.
The Church denounces him as Pontius Pilate, the
Carbonari propose to murder him as the friend of
the Pope.
Senior.-What will be the next subject of debate?
Changarnier.-The budget. There is much that
can be said on it, and that, I trust, will be said.
The 1,950,000,000 (78,000,0001 sterling) that appear
in it do not represent the whole income. You must
add the cautionnements, and you must add the
40,000,000 received every year from the 20,000
conscripts who pay instead of serving.
Senior.-You must deduct the expense of finding
remplaqants.
Changarnier.-The Government buys its remplaqants cheap. It takes idlers and vauriens, men
who want the diligence, or the character, or the intelligence, which are necessary to earn their bread as
working men. They are the pests of the army; they
suffer ten times as many punishments as are inflicted
on the conscripts, and degrade the service.  The
VOL. I.                            M




162


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


conscript who serves unwillingly, who parts in tears
from his family, from his cure, and from his fiancee,
who hates garrison life, and counts every day till his
return, makes by far the best soldier.  He carries his
virtues into the service, feels that he is paying his
debt to his country, is proud to think that he is
paying it faithfully, and despises his comrade, the
remplaqant, as a mercenary.   France is rather guerriere than militaire.  We like war, as a means of
satisfying our vanity and our ambition, as giving us
glory, and power, and influence, but it is a small
minority, and that the worst minority, of our proletaires that wishes to serve. We could not, as you
can do, raise an army by voluntary enlistment, and
if we could do so it would not be, as yours is, a
good one.   You see in Lamoriciere's fate what sort
of an army is raised on the Continent by enlistment.
Senior.-Is not the badness of Lamoriciere's army
to be accounted for partly by the unpopularity of
their cause?
Changarnier.-Not in the least.     In the rural
districts in which that army was raised, Umbria and
the provinces to the south and west, the Papal power
is popular. They are free from conscription, the tax
that falls most heavily on the rest of the Continent.
The peasants are devout, unintelligent, and uncommercial. They do not want roads, or manufactories,
or books, still less what you want to give themBibles.
The Romagna threw off the Pope as soon as his




1861.]


ENGLAND DOES NOT COVET SICILY.


163


troops had left it, but Umbria and the sea-board,
though held by not 3000 Pontifical troops, remained
perfectly quiet. It is only in the towns that there
is disaffection. Lamoriciere tells me that nothing
but the devoted zeal and assistance of the peasants
would have enabled him and his 200 companions to
get from the battle into Ancona.
Senior.-Will Rome accept Victor Emmanuel?
Duvergier.-Rome may, if it is to be his capital;
but Naples, though she has accepted him, will not
keep him.
Senior.-Will you let her do so?
Duvergier.-Certainly  not.  France  will not
tolerate an united Italy, and Louis Napoleon wants
Naples for a cousin.
Senior.-Which cousin?
Duvergier.-I suspect that he would prefer Prince
Napoleon. That is the opinion of the Murats. They
complain that they are sacrificed; but I doubt the
Prince's wish for a throne. He has talents and
courage, at least civil courage, but he has a fatal
defect. II ne peut pas se gener. He cannot submit
to the trouble, to the restraints of sovereignty.
Senior.-Sicily will scarcely form a part of your
southern kingdom.
Duvergier.-You want it to be under your thumb.
Senior.-We want nothing from it but oranges,
sulphur, and sumach. What possible result could
we get from the possession of Sicily except the
expense of defending it?




164


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Duvergier.-I do not suppose that you wish to
possess it, but you would like to have it under your
influence, to make a Portugal of it.
Senior.-And what should we get from    that?
What do we get from Portugal? Except as allies
in war, which Sicily cannot be, the only use that we
can make of foreign countries, or indeed of our own
dependencies, is to trade with them. Now what
is our trade with Portugal?    About 1,700,0001.
a-year, not one third of our trade with Holland, over
which we have no influence; not one fifth of our
trade with the Hanse towns. Trade may give influence, but influence never gives trade.
I spent the evening at Drouyn de Lhuys. People
were talking when I went in of the violent article in
the Patrie, against the presence of the Orleans princes
at the funeral of the Duchess of Kent.
Drouyn de Lhuys.-They forget that the Orleans
family are connected with the Coburgs. It would
have been impossible to avoid inviting them, even if
it had been desirable. The strange thing is, that
between the funeral and the appearance of this antiEnglish tirade in a Government organ, there was a
Conseil des Ministres. Such an article could scarcely
have been published without the previous consent of
the Government.
The Duke of Castel-Cicala, formerly Neapolitan
Minister in London, and for the last seven or eight




1861.]  GARIBALDI NOT SENT BY ENGLAND.


165


years Viceroy of Sicily, came in. We renewed our
acquaintance.  He deplored bitterly, as might be
expected from an ex-Viceroy, the present wretchedness of Sicily.
Castel-Cicala.-It was perfectly tranquil during
my government. There was no discontent, persons
and property were safe; you might travel without
an escort through every province. Population, production, and commerce were increasing, when France
and England sent Garibaldi to destroy everythingsafety, industry, and trade. The lands are uncultivated, the provinces are full of banditti, and men are
murdered in the streets of Palermo at midday.
Senior.-What France may have done, I will not
conjecture, but Garibaldi was not sent by us. We
deplored his expedition, believing that it would end
in the useless sacrifice of brave men, and the disturbance and misery of the country.
Castel-Cicala.-You may have regretted the expedition at that particular time, but your agents had
long been preparing the success of such an invasion,
I know that English influence, and English intrigue,
and English gold, had been squandered for that
purpose for years.
Senior.-I feel equally certain that your belief is
founded on false information. No English gold could
have been so employed, unless the English Foreign
Minister took it out of his own pocket. Our secretservice money in time of peace is a mere trifle, and
is spent in small pensions, given in return for old




166


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


services. And what were we to get by a Sicilian
revolution?   We hate revolutions, as all commercial
nations must do. We are glad, indeed, to see an
United Italy, but on no peculiar selfish grounds. It
will be useful to all Europe.
Castel-Cicala.-Enjoy it, then, while you can;
your pleasure will not be long. Naples will soon be
Bonapartist, and Sicily will set up for herself. It
was not her dislike of the King that made her submit
to Garibaldi, but her dislike of Naples. Self-government will be ruinous to her, but she will try it.
Sunday, March 31st.-I called on Marquis Jules
de Lasteyrie,' brother of Madame de Corcelle and
of Madame de Remusat.
* Marquis Jules de Lasteyrie, grandson to La Fayette, and
brother-in-law to M. de Remusat, was born in 1810. He entered
the service of Don Pedro, and joined the expedition, which, in
1832, drove Don Miguel out of Portugal. In 1842, he was deputy
for La Flbche, and voted with the Left Centre. In 1848, he
threw himself into the counter-revolutionary opposition, and, as
representative of Seine-et-Marne, he opposed both the Republic
and the President.  In 1850, he was one of the seventeen
members chosen by the Ministry to prepare the electoral law
against universal suffrage. In the following session he proposed
the candidature of the Prince de Joinville, and protested against
the coup d'etat. He was banished in 1852, but in the same year
he returned to France under favour of the Decree of Amnesty.
He has published articles on History and Political Economy in
the Revue des Deux iMondes. In 1869 he offered himself as a
Liberal candidate for the Corps L6gislatif, but was defeated by




1861.]


THE POPE LISTENS TO NOBODY.


167


Lasteyrie.-Corcelle is leaving Rome, and I am
very glad that he does so. His presence there
throws responsibility on him, but gives him   no
influence.
Senior. —I thought his influence irresistible.
Lasteyrie.-The Pope knows him to be a man of
excellent sense, a good Catholic, and a devoted
friend. If anybody had influence over him, it would
be Corcelle, and the influence would be well directed;
for, as we all know, he is thoroughly liberal. But
the Pope listens to nobody-indeed sees nobody.
He shuts himself up, lets Antonelli and Merode do
what they like, and contents himself with delivering
from time to time an allocution, drawn up according
to the precedents of the eighth century, and as unfit
for modern times as a Chinese state paper-which
Papal allocutions much resemble-is for European
readers.
Senior.-He has thrown down the reins then.
Lasteyrie.-He has not thrown them down, for
that implies volition. He has suffered them to fall.
Senior.-How has Louis Napoleon taken the slaps
on the face, given to him by Cavour, and by the
Parliament in Turin?
Lasteyrie.-He is delighted-at least so says
Persigny, who is himself in the seventh heaven.
the Government candidate. In 1871 he was elected member
of the National Assembly, where he sat in the Right Centre.
-ED.




168


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


They say that the slaps are given, not to him, but
to those whom they treat as enemies-the Chambers.
We are told that the decree annexing Rome to the
Kingdom of Italy was made by his order. I do not
believe that he actually ordered, or even advised it;
but I feel certain that it was made with his concurrence. His conduct is governed by his impulses
-not by his reason-and his strongest and oldest
passion is hatred of the Pope.
You find us more alive than usual. Between
the debate and M. Mires we have something to talk
about.
Senior.-They are bad subjects for me. I have
not had time to read the debates, and we know
nothing about Mires.
Lasteyrie.-I do, and I will tell you what I know.
In September, 1851, Pereire brought Mires to me,
'pour parler,' as he said, 'd'affaire.' The affair was
this: Mires had bought the Pays, and he came to
offer to my friends and me the complete direction and
use of -the political portion of the paper, reserving to
himself the commercial part. We were to pay him
6000 francs a-year.
'You ought,' I said to him, 'to have known us
too well to suppose that we could accept the responsibility of editing a journal, any part of which was
out of our control.'
'I am sorry for it,' said Mires; 'I know nothing
about politics. I have bought the journal for my
own commercial purposes, and your names would




1861.]


THE AFFAIRE MIRES.


169


have given it currency. You are on the winning
side.'
'Well,' I said, 'M. Mires, in return for your
good opinion, I will give you some advice. We are
on the eve of a revolution. In less than three
months there will be a fight between the President
and the Assembly.   If you wish to be on the winning side, do not adopt a flag too soon, or you may
have to change it.'
Mires followed my advice; kept the Pays at
first neutral, and after the coup d'etat tendered the
management of its politics to the Government, who
gave him Granier de Cassagnac for an editor. Soon
afterwards he bought the Constitutionnel, and gave, or
sold, its politics also to the Government.
Commanding the commercial portion of two great
journals, he thought, with some truth, that he could
puff every commercial scheme into temporary favour.
Paris was then in a fever of speculation. We had no
external politics; domestic ones were neither agreeable nor safe matters for discussion. Ambition was
at an end. Court favour was despised, indeed rendered those who submitted to it despicable. Society
was dull, and sometimes treacherous.   Wealth became our only object, and its pursuit our only amusement.
Mires established la caisse des chemins de fer,
and raised by its shares a capital of fifty millions
(two millions sterling), which was intended to be
invested in railway shares, or lent at high interest




170


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


to railway companies. He followed the course of
Pereire, but with less skill. He dealt in shares, he
obtained concessions for railways at home and abroad;
and, above all, he bribed right and left. At last
his engagements amounted to above twenty millions
sterling. What may be the value of his assets time will
show. Much depended on the success of the Ottoman
loan. If it had succeeded, he might have floated a
little longer. It failed. Mires was instantly a ruined
man, and the whole crowd of his creditors rushed on
him. So many great people were apparently in his
power, that he thought he could rely on being pulled
through by the Government. He wrote a letter to
the Emperor, three pages long, in which he attributed his ruin to the bribes which he had been
forced to give to the Emperor's friends, and he added
a list of the persons whom he could, and would,
expose, if he was not rescued. ' La chute,' he said,
'de la Miaison Mires pourrait entralner une autre chute.'
The Emperor was furious, and ordered him to be
immediately arrested and prosecuted.
Senior.-For what? What was there legally
criminal in his conduct?
Lasteyrie.-Offering a bribe to a person in authority
is an offence; but he was also accused of fraud. He
had taken large sums for the purpose of investing
them, and had misapplied them.
The affair has been put into the hands of M. de
Germigny, and has been carried on administrativement
-a term, happily, unknown to you. It is a criminal




1861.]


WHOLESALE BRIBERY.


171


proceeding, in which the forms of law are dispensed
with. It resembles an inquiry by a Parliamentary
Committee. Mires remains at Mazas au secret; but
great use has been made of his list.    Between
seven and eight millions (about 300,0001.) has
been paid to his account by persons whom, he
says, that he bribed, but who admit only that they
had borrowed from him, and given no security.
Young B —     is one of them.   He is Conseiller
d'Etat, and had received 100,000 francs-pour faire,
according to Mires —un rapport favorable. What
adds to the scandal, he has since been sent out of
the country on a mission, apparently in order to
suppress his evidence. It appears also that he has
bribed largely in Spain and in Rome.      Queen
Christina and Munfoz are among the soi-disant borrowers. All the money paid to Mires by the shareholders on the new Roman lines has disappeared,
and the railroads are scarcely, if at all, begun. It is
obvious that the Government has not seen to the
performance of the contracts. This is supposed to be
explained by large sums debited in the books of
M. Mires to a brother of Cardinal Antonelli, who is
a banker in Rome. In general, the Emperor has
endeavoured to screen the delinquents, but his answer,
as respects the Roman affairs, was, ' Spare nobody.'
April lst.-I called on A. B. C. He asked what
Corcelle was doing, and was glad to hear that he was
returning from Rome.




172


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


A. B. C.-Even if he were listened to, he could
give no useful advice, for no useful advice is to be
given. I do not blame the Pope for shutting himself
up in inactivity. How can he be usefully active?
He can do no good by staying in Rome; he can
do no good by quitting Rome. While he remains
there he is degraded. As soon as he goes, he sows
the seeds of the schisms which will destroy the unity
of Catholicism; a unity which was its peculiar glory,
and its great source of usefulness.  We are now
arrived at a turning-point in the history of mankind.
An institution which has preserved religion and civilisation for 1500 years, which neither barbarians, nor
tyrants, nor revolutions, nor wars, could permanently
injure, will be destroyed by Garibaldi and Cavourby a Nicene fisherman and a Piedmontese statesman.
Whatever be the place of refuge which the Pope
selects, he will be virtually a subject there. Like
every other guest he will be under the influence of
his host. There will be no confidence in his impartiality. If he fixes himself in Austria and we are
at war with her, shall we suffer our Church to be
governed from Vienna? If he selects Seville, and we
quarrel with Spain, shall we submit to be under the
jurisdiction of a pope who has made himself a
Spaniard?
We shall establish a Church of our own, that is
to say, we shall make a schism. So will Spain and
Austria, if the Pope reside in France. One schism




1861.]


EFFECT OF THE DEBATE.


173


will be followed by another, until Catholicism becomes a mere recollection.
Cavour's plan of the separation of Church and
State may suit a small semi-republican country like
Belgium, but it is inconsistent with all our habits and
traditions. We have always thought the union of
Church and State necessary, in order that each may
control the other. If we cease to be Papal we shall
not turn Independents. Our sovereign will become
the head of our Church, and our priests will be
Government officers; spiritual gendarmes, without
influence, scarcely even respected. I am grieved to
the heart, both as a Catholic and as a Liberal.
Senior.-What has been the effect of the debate
on Louis Napoleon's position?
A. B. C.-Mischievous. Every one has long disapproved of his policy, but till now no one knew
how widely that disapprobation extended. The debate
has shown it to be universal, and the knowledge of
that fact has made each man's private disapprobation
more confident and more intense.   The Chambers
have told him that he has to choose between folly
and treachery, to confess himself the dupe or the
accomplice of Cavour; that if he does not see that
Italian unity is an almost fatal blow to France, he
is a fool; that if, seeing it, he has sacrificed the
interests of France to his hatred of the Pope, or to his
fears of the Carbonari, he is a traitor. He has,
in fact, left to himself, and to us, only two modes
of escape. He must break the Italian unity by




174


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


seizing Naples, or he must restore the balance by
seizing the Rhine. And there is not a Frenchman
who would not, under the circumstances of the case,
endure a war of years for either of those purposes.
Senior.-Which of those attempts do you think
the more probable?
A. B. C.-The seizure of Belgium and the Rhine.
Europe is now like our earth, a crust under which
destructive gases are being generated and are accumulating. The first explosion will probably be on
the Danube. You may hear there the sounds of an
approaching earthquake. Hungary and Croatia will
rise, perhaps even Bohemia, for all the Sclavonic races
are disturbed.
Senior.-But how will that enable you to get the
Rhine?
A. B. C.-Everything is possible as soon as a war
breaks out. Prussia may assist Austria. Louis Napoleon may invade Prussia in defence of the principle of
non-intervention. Prussia may think that Austria is
breaking up, and may join her enemies in the hope of
getting some of her fragments. He may take part
with Austria and seize Rhenish Prussia as his fragment; or he may join Prussia, take the Rhine, and
indemnify Prussia with Hanover and Saxony. Nothing, I repeat, is impossible when once the next war
has broken out. Which of the two courses of events
he would prefer, I doubt. There are strong reasons
for, and against each. The seizure of the Rhine
involves a war with you; a war which he always




1861.]


CHANGE IN NATIONAL FEELING.


175


contemplates, always prepares for, always perhaps
intends, but yet dreads and defers. An Hungarian insurrection may force it on him. He cannot be a mere
spectator of such an event; but if Hungary remains
quiet he may prefer the easier seizure of Naples. But
there, again, is a peculiar danger from which a German
war is free, the Unionist dagger. As all his policy
is selfish and personal, he may rather encounter
dangers to France than dangers to himself. He
may rather expose us to ruin and dismemberment
by an European coalition, than himself to a dagger
or a bomb.
Senior.-What do you mean by the seizure of
Naples? Is the Prince Imperial to be King of
Naples, and Prince Napoleon the Viceroy?
A. B. C.-By no means, that would be too barefaced. It is not to be a conquest, but a restoration. A Murat is to go thither. And such has been
the policy of all parties, that he will be able to
say that he has right on his side.
The public law of Europe and America seems now
to be that nations are mere voluntary partnerships,
and that every individual, and every aggregation of
which they consist, has a right to dissolve partnership
at pleasure; that there is no such thing as allegiance;
that neither kings nor aristocracies have any rights
against the people; that is to say, against the uneducated majority. Nothing will be easier than to
induce, what he will call the Neapolitan people,-the
Lazzaroni of the towns, and the peasants in the




176


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


country,-to discard Victor Emmanuel, and demand
Prince Napoleon or Joachim.
And who is to complain if we require that their
will be obeyed? Louis Napoleon has a right to say
that the abolition of all rights of sovereignty and of
aristocracy is not his doing. He carefully preserved
them. He accepted Lombardy, not as the gift of the
people, but of the sovereign. He reserved the rights
of all the existing rulers, merely requiring their rule
to be liberalised. He protected by French arms the
two who alone remained at their post; he protested
in favour of even those who had abandoned their
thrones. The present state of Italy, he may well
say, is not my doing. To England he has a right
to say, ' Vous avez fait faire;' to Piedmont, ' Vous
avez fait;' to the rest of Europe, ' Vous avez laisse
faire.'
So absurd and so mischievous has been the policy
of all parties, that it is difficult to say which is most
to blame. Louis Napoleon's wisdom left him as soon
as he had made the peace of Villa Franca. It was
the best arrangement for everybody.   For us, to
whom it left Italy in the state in which it is our
business to keep her-a divided, and therefore an inoffensive neighbour. For Austria, whom it left safe
in Venice, and unhumiliated in Florence. For the
minor Italian powers, to whom it left the autonomy
which they have enjoyed for fifteen centuries; and
for Piedmont herself, whose wealth and power it
doubled; and who, if she would have kept quiet,




1861.]


ITALY A FORMIDABLE RIVAL.


177


might have enjoyed an indefinite period of prosperous
peace, protected by France, and friendly with her
neighbours. But Piedmont listened only to her
vanity and ambition. She resolved to play double
or quits. Whether the Piedmontese people have
gained by being absorbed into this new disjointed
revolutionary kingdom of Italy, even if that kingdom continue to exist, remains to be seen. It was
Louis Napoleon's business to restrain her. He pretended to do so, but secretly encouraged her. What
he did secretly, you did openly. Such conduct was
franker and bolder, but therefore only the more mischievous. The rest of Europe sulkily submitted.
And see the result. Italy is in revolution, a disease
from which it takes generations to recover; a disease
which we have suffered eighty years, and from which
we seem to be as far from recovery as we were in
1790. Piedmont has staked her liberty and her
independence. France sees a new rival, probably a
new enemy, start up on her very frontier, more
formidable than any power on the Continent, more
populous than Prussia; more homogeneous than
Austria; more intelligent than Russia or Spain, and
she will probably have to go through a war, or a
series of wars, before she can either dismember this
new giant, or obtain such an extension of territory as
shall restore her just preponderance.
As for you, besides sanctioning the abolition
throughout Europe of all public law, an abolition
from which you will suffer severely, you will have
VOL. I.                             N




178


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


compelled us, either to absorb your dependencyBelgium, and to break the force of your ally -Prussia,
or to extend our protectorate over all Southern Italy.
Senior.-As for Belgium and the Rhine, I admit
that we should feel their union to you a great evil;
an evil to be resisted even by war; and we shall
grieve if our hopes of an united Italy prove a dream.
But if there is to be a Neapolitan throne, I would as
soon see a Bonaparte on it as a Bourbon.
A. B. C.-But a Bonaparte dynasty would be
a really French dynasty; the Bourbons were only
nominally French.
Senior.-A Bonaparte dynasty would be French,
but would it be permanent? Would it outlast the
Bonapartes in France? And if it did outlast them,
would it be a friend to the dynasty of the next
restoration?
A. B. C.-You do not believe, then, in the Napoleonic dynasty?
Senior.-I find no one who does.
A. B. C.-To die, it must commit suicide; which,
I admit that it seems resolved to do. And whom
do you expect to succeed it?
Senior.-The House of Orleans.
A. B. C.-I am of your opinion.   Je crois que
les actions de la Maison d' Orleans sont en hausse et celle
de la Maison Bonaparte en baisse.
Here we were interrupted by visitors.


April 2nd.-A. B. C. paid us a long visit this




1861.]  PROGRAMME OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


179


morning. We returned to our conversation of yesterday, at about the point at which we had left off.
A. B. C.-You would tolerate a Muratist dynasty
in Naples, if Naples is to have a separate government?
Senior.-Yes.
A. B. C.-But the Emperor's schemes are more
extensive.  He sends to Naples both the Murats;
the father is to have Naples, the son is to have
Sicily, with a separate administration, connected with
Naples by a mere suzerainty, and the reunion of
the two crowns is to be delayed until the father's
death. Nor is this quite all. It is admitted that the
Pope is a bad administrator; it is admitted that he
cannot govern his own subjects, that he must always
be maintained by foreign bayonets; it is admitted,
too, that his temporal sovereignty interferes with his
spiritual duties and with his spiritual influence. All
this must be true, for all your public men, except a
few  Irish Ultramontane bigots, proclaim  it.  We
bow to your authority. We propose, therefore, that
he shall still have the military support which, you
say, is necessary, and shall be relieved from the
administration for which you say that he is unfit.
We intend him to be the sovereign of the States of
the Church, but not their administrator. He is to
have la nue proprietY.  A Vicaire is to act under
him and for him, and to be enabled to do so by
receiving their revenues. Who can be so fit for this
office as the King of Naples? Naples is already a




180


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


fief of the Church, the rest of the Roman territory is
to be so likewise. The Pope is to be the sovereign
of the whole, but on the same terms as to every
portion. Murat will give him a handsome civil list,
will acknowledge him as sovereign of Rome and of
the States of the Church, will surround him with
all the reverence which your East India Company
paid to the Great Mogul, and leave to him just as
much authority. If the people of the Romagna, or
of the Marches, or of Umbria, or of any other portion
of the Church, or the King of Northern Italy, object
to this arrangement, we have 25,000 men in Rome,
and 30,000 more within a day's steam who will prove
to them its perfect propriety.
The new King of Northern Italy will not be on
very good terms with the new King of Southern
Italy, but we shall keep the peace between them, and
the knowledge that we can use either to crush the
other will keep both of them our humble allies. All
the splendid ports of the Neapolitan dominions will
be open to us, and their marine will be virtually a
part of ours.
Such is our master's programme. There is some
violence and some perfidy in it, but those are defects
inherent to all large comprehensive schemes; they
are incidental to la haute politique.
It is subject, however, as I said yesterday, to one
real objection; it will drive the Carbonari mad. The
sentence against him as a false brother is now suspended; it will be so no longer. He will not be




1861.]   PROBABLE WAR ON THE RHINE.


181


safe in the streets, or in the Bois de Boulognescarcely in the Tuileries.  Such dangers he once
despised; he does so no longer. His nerves have
not recovered, probably will never recover, the shock
of the attentat.  Still, I believe that he will not
abandon his scheme, but he will hesitate; he will
procrastinate, perhaps, until he is engaged in his war
on the Rhine, and then it may be too late. Italy
may be consolidated, and we may have to content
ourselves with getting in return the Rhine from
Strasburg to Rotterdam. But it will be a bad compensation for the union of Italy. On the other hand,
it is quite possible that our success on the Rhine may
be so decisive and so rapid, that we may be able to
carry into effect both schemes.
Austria may be paralysed by Hungary; Prussia
may be wasting her forces in her absurd war with
Denmark.    You may find us a more dangerous
enemy at sea than you suppose us to be. We have
twice as much disposable revenue as you have, and
for the first three months we shall have more sailors,
and perhaps more and better ships. The war may
not last three months, and then we turn south,
wards.
One thing only pleases me in this vista of
treachery, violence, and crime; that Nemesis will
have her part in it, that you will be punished for
your folly, Germany for her cowardice, and Piedmont
for her wickedness. The next ten years will be a
period of great moral revolution. Every nation will




182


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


suffer, though not, perhaps, in proportion to its demerits.
Senior.-I own that this is no consolation to me.
Crimes and follies are what I expect from nations.
The object of punishment is prevention; there is
no use in punishing nations, for they are incorrigible.
A. B. C.-I am not so philosophical; I wish to
punish, whether I can correct or not. Nothing should
tenapt me to leave Piedmont unpunished. Her insolence, her impudence, her avidity, her falsehood, her
treachery, form the most revolting picture of political
wickedness that the world, ancient or modern, has
ever seen. And you wish to reward her for all this
by putting her at the head of a great nation, and to
reward the author of it all, Cavour, by making him a
great historical personage-an Italian Napoleon. I
admire Cavour. He, Garibaldi, and the young King
of Naples, are the only Italians for whom I care.
Cavour has played his part with infinite boldness and
skill. His conduct in the last debate was a masterpiece of both. He defied the French Chambers, but
flattered the Emperor, and managed to throw on him
the whole responsibility of keeping the King of Italy
out of Rome. If we only admit that his end, Italian
unity, is a good one, which I hope that he believes,
and that the end sanctifies the means, which I fear
he believes, he is a hero. I sympathize with him, and
with Garibaldi. I should be sorry to see either of
them hanged, though, if any political crimes deserve
hanging, theirs do. But I have no sympathy with




1861.]         EFFECT OF THE DEBATE. '            183
Piedmont. She has been the unintelligent, unreluctant instrument of Cavour's      ambition  and   of
Garibaldi's fanaticism. My detestation of her crimes
is not neutralised by any admiration.
Wednesday, April 3rd.-The Marquis de Chambrun* called on us. His family are Legitimists, with
a large property in the Lozere.    I asked him, as I
ask everybody, what had been the effect of the discussion on Louis Napoleon's position.
Chambrun.-Very mischievous. People have communicated their opinions on the war and on its consequences, and every one finds that every one else
utterly disapproves all that has been done. He is
now as little trusted at home as he is abroad; all
confidence, not only in his truth, but in his prudence,
in his decision, and in his success, is gone. He has
spent, they say, 50,000 men and 500,000,000fr. to
make Piedmont a first-rate power.
There is a general feeling that he must be put
under control, that he is not fit to manage our affairs,
or even his own. All his wishes, too, are supposed
* The Marquis de Chambrun was at this time quite young.
He had not long been married to M. de Corcelle's daughter, and
Tocqueville, who thought highly of his intelligence, had done all
he could to promote the match. Not many years after this period
he lost his fortune, and although he could hardly speak a word of
English, he emigrated to the United States, and has succeeded
brilliantly at the American bar.-ED.




184


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


to be contrary to ours. He wants war, we want
peace.
Senior.-Does the army want peace?
Clhambrun.-Not the soldiers, nor the officers
under the rank of general. The soldiers who hate
garrison life wish for war, pour se desennuyer; the
officers want promotion, and confess that the great
advantage which they hope from war will be the
killing off their seniors. But the generals having
acquired a high social position wish to enjoy it.
They do not want to be killed off; they are as much
opposed to war as we are. And yet all this may
produce war. He may think it necessary pour nous
distrai e, and no distraction can be better than successful war. The war, to be sure, may be unsuccessful, and then he is lost, but he is accustomed to
play for great stakes.  On the whole, I am inclined
t, think that the chances are in favour of war.
Senior.-In what quarter?
C/hambrun.-Towards the Rhine and the Scheldt.
It can be only for a maritime war that he is making
these enormously expensive naval preparations, and
we do not suppose that an Italian war would bring
on an English one. I know that very large provisions of military stores are collected or are on their
way to our northern frontier; much larger than are
necessary, or even useful, if the army is to be kept
on our peace establishment, vast as that establishment is.
Senior.-You think that the distraction of




1861.]


FRANCE GOVERNED BY TRADITION.


185


war would prevent an attempt to put him under
control?
Chambrun.-Provided that we approved of the
object of the war, and this we might do, though we
might think that object not worth the risk or the
cost.  The peculiarity of the wars which he has
made as yet was that we disliked the object as well
as the means. We did not want to weaken Russia,
still less to destroy her as a maritime power. We
had no sympathy with Lombardy, and we hated
Piedmont. But a successful war for the Rhine would
be popular with everybody, and so would be a war
to prevent Italian unity. We are a nation routiniere,
at least, as respects foreign politics.
The traditions of the empire attract us to the
Rhine. The traditions of Richelieu tell us never to
allow Italy, or indeed any of our neighbours, to be
powerful. We require them to be small, weak, and
divided. How much of the Rhine-land will you let
us take?
Senior.-Not a village.
Chiambrun.-And the same as to the Scheldtland?
Senior.-Certainly. You are afraid of an Italy of
20,000,000; you are ready to lay waste the whole
peninsula in order to prevent it. One of your most
eminent statesmen told me the other day that he
would die rather than see a United Italy or a United
Germany.   Are not we justified in taking every
means to prevent a France of 50,000,000 from being




186


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


created within twenty-four miles of us? We cannot
allow you to eat the artichoke leaf by leaf; we must
make a stand somewhere, and that stand will be to
prevent your extending yourselves to the north.
Chambrun. —Then war is inevitable, for we most
certainly shall make the attempt.  When I said
that I was inclined to think that the chances were in
favour of war, I spoke much too undecidedly. Peace
seems to me to be possible only in one of three
contingencies; one, that he makes his spring on
Italy instead of on the Rhine; another, that you let
him do whatever he thinks fit; the third, that his
career be cut short by a ball or a dagger. The first,
perhaps, may bring on the third, which is a sufficient
reason for his not adopting it.
Something he must do. His prestige is gone;
he cannot afford to let himself be opposed by you,
treated as a child by Cavour, denounced as a false
friend by his protege, Francis of Naples, and excommunicated by his other protege, the Pope.   The
reproaches that most injure a sovereign have been
showered on him: cowardice, irresolution, falsehood,
treachery, selfishness, and, what is a hundred times
worse than all the rest put together, stupidity.
We think that he made the war because he was
afraid of the Carbonari, that he made the peace
because he had brought his army into a position of
extreme peril, that he allowed the peace to be broken
because he was afraid of Cavour, that he deserted
Francis II. because he was afraid of England, and




1861.]


PEACE OR WAR.


187


that he will now desert the Pope, because he is afraid
of Prince Napoleon. War may destroy him, peace
must destroy him. Prepare yourselves, therefore, for
a duel a mort, or to give up the Rhine.
Chambrun was followed by General Changarnier.
Changarnier.-Ellice has passed through Paris,
and has gone to tell everybody in London that we
are going to war with you, to punish you for having
encouraged Italian unity.
Senior.-Not precisely so. He tells us that you
are furious against Italian unity; and that you are
furious against us, because you think that we have
contributed to it. But he does not say that you are
going to war with us. He knows that you have
nothing to do with peace or war. That that question,
like every other, is decided for you by a wiser head
than any of yours.
Changarnier.-Well, I do not believe that that wise
head intends war-at least for the present. Few
people know him so well as I do. I have seen him
in all situations. Though we do not meet now, I
have intimate friends who are about him. From all
that I hear of what he is doing and what he is saying,
he does not wish for war.
Senior. -Perhaps not for its own sake.  The
Russian and Italian wars may have cured him of that.
But may he not be resolved to obtain objects to which
war may be incidental?
Changarnier.-He may be; but we are not. And




188


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


if we can preserve even the shadow of free discussion
which we now have, it will be difficult for him to
make a wanton war. The Chambers hold legally the
purse-strings. They would refuse the budget for an
unnecessary war.
Senior.-May he not abolish them?     May he not
make use of the clause in the Constitution, enabling
him to appeal from the Chambers to the people?
Changarnier.-I do not think that he would do
that. It would be too slow and too doubtful. I
think him more likely to make another coup d'etat
if the Marshals will help him, which is by no means
certain.
I think it still more probable that, if he wants
war he will make it when the Chambers have been
prorogued, et quand il nous aura      lance dans les
evenemens, will defy us to refuse the supplies.
Thursday, April 4th.- Beaumont" came to Paris
yesterday, and he and Circourt, Chambrun, Madame
Mohl, Hayward, and Waldegrave, breakfasted with us.
We talked of the removal of the ashes of Napoleon
from the chapel in which they have lain during the
* Gustave de Beaumont, a great friend and adherent of
Tocqueville, whose biographer he became. He wrote several
other works, one upon Ireland, another called ILarie; ou
t'esclavage aux Etats-Unis, &c.  He was for a short time
Ambassador in England in 1849. He was an affectionate and
sincere friend, and a delightful converser, full of animation and
energy. He died in 1866.-ED.




1861.]


CRIMES OF ENGLAND.


189


last fifteen years, to a vault under the dome of the
Invalides. It took place yesterday, privately.
Circourt.-Louis Napoleon has spent millions in
preparing an Imperial tomb at St. Denys. The
Bonaparte dynasty was to be interred during the
next thousand years by the side of the Capets.
All the bishops were to attend in vestments of
violet, brocaded with gold, and embroidered with
pearls. Twenty or thirty bishops in partibus were to
be created for the purpose. The procession was to be
lighted by 100,000 torches, and to reach from Montmartre to the cathedral.
All has been spoilt by the quarrel with the
Church. The Emperor got angry.     ' Mettez le dans
un trou, he said,' et ne m'etourdissez plus les oreilles.'
This has literally been done.  He has been put into a
hole, over which is a sarcophagus of sandstone, as
ugly as the rest of the tomb, which the Emperor believes to be of porphyry.
Circourt is recovering from influenza.  He has
been kept silent for a week, and his pent-up talk overflowed in indignation against us.
We were wicked for not stopping the war with
Austria; we were wicked for not forcing Louis Napoleon
to force Victor Emmanuel to observe the peace of Zurich; we were wicked for sending Garibaldi to Naples;
we were wicked for sending the French fleet from Gaeta;
we are wicked for allowing Prussia to attack Denmark.
In short, as it is in our power to keep the whole




190


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


world quiet, it is our fault that it is all in uproar, and
we shall be punished by seeing the French flag flying
from Mayence to Antwerp, the Greek flag at Corfu
and the Green flag in Dublin.
Our French friends seemed to think all this very
friendly and very wise.
Beaumont dined with us.
I attacked him about the suppression of Tocqueville's ' Revolution."
Beaumont.-I think myself bound to act as I believe that Tocqueville would have acted. I am certain
that if he had known that he was dying, he would
have burnt that manuscript. He was a great thinker,
but still more, a great artist. He was an artist in his
books, in his letters, in his speeches, in his despatches,
-even in his conversation.   He worshipped 'La
Forme' perhaps even more devoutly than' La Substance.' He used to say that an idea not produced in
its very best dress, was injured. He had another
idol,-his own reputation. No motive could tempt
him to appear before the public, or even before his
friends, en deshabille.  Often when I have tried to
make him speak in the Chamber, he has answered, 'I
cannot; I am unprepared.' I have remonstrated. I
have said that considering the state of the debate a
few sentences from him might give it a turn which
would be useful. It was in vain: he never would
speak unless he could speak his best. This defect
made him useless to his party as a debater.




1861.]   WAR HATED IN THE PROVINCES.


191


We passed on to politics.
Beaumont.-The few persons whom     I have had
time to see in Paris, do not expect war. They say
that our finances, good as they may be made to appear, are in a bad state: that the Emperor's civil list
owes 80,000,000 (3,200,0001).
In the country, at least in my province of Sarthe,
the horror of war is indescribable.  The wars of the
last five years, and the enormous conscription even in
peace, are ruining our agriculture and our labourers,
and desolating our families. As the day of balloting
approaches, you see everyone triste and preoccupe.
When it comes, it sometimes takes every ablebodied young man who is subject to it, and even then
does not give the number, required from  us. The
people say, ' What is the use of balloting when every
one has to go?' Those who serve, count the days till
they can escape. Every month I am requested to
intercede with a general in order to get a man discharged before his time. Sometimes I succeed, more
frequently I fail.
Senior. —Changarnier tells me that the reluctant
conscripts make the best soldiers.
Beaumont. -Changarnier, and Lamoriciere, and
our other successful generals, all delight in the conscription. It gives them every year a crop of from
120,000 to 150,000 strong, healthy young men, who
are, I dare say, more orderly and more obedient
soldiers than the rascals who can be hired as remplaqants. Their metier leads our officers to treat war as




192


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


the great object of human existence, and the conscription as the readiest means of supporting it. Those
only who live in the country as I do-live familiarly
with the country people-know what are its horrors.
If a peasant or farmer complains, he is sent to prison
-perhaps to Cayenne.
We boast of Jgalite. What can be more unequal
than a tax, paid in money or by service, which ruins
the poor and is not felt by the rich? If one of my
sons were taken, it would cost me 801., and I should
be free for ever. To one of my tenants, 801. is a year's
income. He must pinch himself for years to raise it.
To a labourer it is a fabulous sum. He never has
possessed, or will possess, a quarter of it. He gives
instead of it, the six best years of his life-often his
life itself.
The management, too, of the conscription is harsh.
We are in the hands of the Gendarmerie, who hate or
despise the peasants as pequins. Not long ago, one
of my peasants-a soldier on furlough-was required
to join.  The gendarme came to me at ten o'clock in
the morning, and desired me to send him off by the
train which starts at two.  'If he does not report
himself in Paris,' he said, 'to-morrow morning, I am
ordered to arrest him as a deserter.'
' It is impossible,' I answered. 'I do not know
where to find him. He shall go by to-morrow's train.'
'That won't do,' he replied; if he is not off by
the two o'clock train to-day, I must arrest him.'
I sent out in every direction, found him by accident




1861.]   'MOT' ON THE FRENCH EMPIRE.


193


three miles away, lent him a horse to gallop to the
station, which he reached just before the train started.
It he had been two minutes later, he would have been
arrested, and his chance of promotion, or of early discharge, destroyed.
The conscription is almost equally unpopular
among the employers of labour. Our agriculture is
languishing, both from the want of hands and from
the extravagant wages demanded by the few        who
can be hired.
Twenty years ago the population of Beaumont la
Chartre was 900. It is now only 650. This indeed
is partly owing to the growth of the towns and to the
enormous public works.
An intelligent Russian said of this Government
that it is ' condamne' a travaux forces a perpetuite.
For the mere purpose of giving employment, the
towns are forced to demolish and       rebuild  whole
quarters; the railway companies are required to make
unremunerating lines and branches. A week's interruption of the building trade would terrify the
Government. The north-west district of Paris is now
to be pulled down and renewed. When that has been
* The mot was first said by M. de Roziere to me. I was so
charmed with it I told it to the Baron d'Uxktihl, a Livonian; he
carried it to Petersburg, and two years afterwards a Russian told
it to me as coming from thence; he said it as we were looking at
some building going on, and I said what will be done when all this
building is at an end.-(Note by Madame Mohl.)
VOL. I.                                 0




194


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


done, the operation must be repeated towards the
north-east. The workmen are feeling their power.
There is a strike now among the masons in my neighbouring town of Chartre. Such a thing was not
heard of two years ago.
Senior.-Is a strike legal?
Beaumont.-Certainly not. It is severely punishable, but the Government is afraid to interfere. I am
building; my workpeople, who used to be satisfied
with 35 sous (Is. 5d.) a-day, asked three francs( 2s. 6d.)
'We want,' they said, 'the prices of Paris.' ' If I am
to pay,' I answered, 'Paris prices, I will send for
Paris workmen, who will do twice as much in the
same time.' I have been looking out in vain for six
months for a ille-de-ferme. I used to pay 80 francs
a-year. I offer 200 and cannot get one.
Senior.-What do you pay for your higher
servants,-to the man, for instance, about your
person?
Beaumont.-I used to pay 300 francs a-year. I
now pay 400 (161.); but that is clear profit to him,
as I provide him with clothes and washing.
Formerly our conscripts, when discharged, returned to us. Now we may never hear of them
again. Those who do not die establish themselves
elsewhere: those who do return are deteriorated as
workmen, they have lost part of their skill, and
more of their industry. A garrison life makes a man
degourdi and intelligent, but idle, fidneur, and often
drunken.




1861.]  NO CATHOLICISM WITHOUT PAPACY.


195


Senior. —They are taught, I suppose, to read and
write?
Beaumont.-Seldom. There are regimental schools,
but they are not forced to attend them.
We passed on to the Papal question.
Beaumont.-The quarrel with the Pope has not
yet produced much effect in the provinces.  In fact, it
is not known. While the Pope and the French soldiers
are in Rome, the people take for granted that he is
under our protection.
My maire, an excellent Papist, received Prince
Napoleon's speech. It delighted him. ' Voila,' he
said to me, ' un qui defend joliment le Pape. Ah ils
auront beau menacer le Pape.  L'Empereur est la pour
le proteger.'
But if the Pope leaves Rome, the veil will fall.
Our people cannot conceive a Pope out of Italy, nor
can they conceive Catholicism, or even religion, without Papacy.    All the absurdities, all the inconsistencies, all the miracles, and all the vices of
Catholicism, are to them parts of their religion. It
can scarcely indeed be otherwise, for, being forbidden
to inquire, even if they had the necessary leisure or
knowledge, they are in the hands of their priests, who
are as uninformed as they are, and perhaps still more
prejudiced.
If they cease to be Catholics, they will cease to be
Christians.  To distinguish between   the different
parts of a creed, and retain one, rejecting the other, is




196


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


impossible to an ignorant, unreflecting people. To
make them Protestants, you must first make their
priests Protestants, as the early Reformers did. But
they had no prejudices to contend against. Luther
was a monk, and spoke to his brother monks a
language which they understood. Protestant doctrines
are unintelligible to most of our clergy; and those
who could understand them are fortified against them
by obstinate prejudice.
But if our peasants lose their religion, they will
become savages. It is their only restraint, their only
intellectual exercise.  Their intercourse with the
priest alone raises them above barbarism.
Senior.-Has their intercourse with the schoolmaster no effect?
Beaurnont.-Scarcely any.  They leave school so
early that they forget in a year or two the little that
they have learned. Scarcely any of my tenants can
read, though some of them pay me as much as 2000
francs a-year.  The masters are not much better
scholars. There ought to be a normal school in every
department to train masters. But when I applied to
the soi-disant normal school of the department of La
Sarthe, they told me that they trained none. They
sent me one, some time ago, ignorant and drunken.
I got rid of him, and am forced to trust the school to
two Sisters of Charity-good people, but not real
teachers.
Senior.-Could any one open a private school in
Beaumont la Chartre?




1861.]


MORCELLEMENT OF PROPERTY.


197


Beaumont.-He might, if he had patience enough
to go through the requisite formalities, and could
obtain the requisite certificates, and the requisite
permissions, which would not be easy. If he were
an Imperialist, the bishop would refuse his consent;
if he belonged to any other party, the prefect. But
he would get no scholars. First, because our peasants
care nothing for education, and, secondly, in a country
so administre as France, a private establishment cannot compete with a public one.
In fact, however, I never heard of the attempt
being made.
Friday, April 5th.-Hayward was sitting with
me this morning when Beaumont came in. We
talked of the morcellement of property in France.
Beaumont. —It does not extend. Real property
is so desired in France, that the construction of
estates goes on as rapidly as their dissolution. Our
conveyancing system, though very expensive, is
simple. To be a land-jobber-a marchand de terrain-is a considerable profession. It is so easy
to buy and sell, that the land of the country is
supposed to change hands on an average once in
twenty years. This is one of the reasons which
make it difficult to get tenants or farm-servants.
If a man has capital, he had rather spend two-thirds
of it in buying a farm, and the other third in stocking it, than employ the whole on another's land.
I have not a servant who has not his field. To have




198


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


none is a degradation. My labourers are constantly
telling me, 'I cannot come to-morrow, as I have to
sow my barley. I cannot come another day, because
I have to dig my potatoes.'
Hayward.-This is John Mill's favourite system
of peasant proprietors.
Senior.-That system used to be praised as a preservative against revolution.
Beaumont.-To be sure, it has not saved us from
dynastic or political revolutions; that is, from revolutions affecting the depositories of power, but it has
saved us from Socialist ones. The affection of the
proprietors for their little cottages and fields, often
intense in inverse proportion to the size of the property, occasioned the return of the Constituent
Assembly in 1848-one of the best that we ever have
had.
Senior.-I should have thought that the man
with only one acre would have liked a scramble,
out of which he might get two.
Beaumont.-He was wiser. He thought, with La
Place, that a certainty of one acre was better than an
even chance of two.
Guizot now came in. He was delighted to see
Beaumont, not only for his own merits, but as a
member of the Academy, in order to canvass for
Reynouard, who is candidate for a vacancy to be
illed up a fortnight hence. Reynouard was Procureur-General at the time of the coup d'etat, and




1861.]


PERSISTENCY OF CAVOUR.


199


signed the order for the arrest of Louis Napoleon.
It is a curious trait in Louis Napoleon's character,
that while destroying by thousands, and tens of
thousands, his enemies in the lower classes, he has
left untouched, indeed unnoticed, those belonging
to the aristocracy of birth or of talent. It is said
that Reynouard will be elected, though a single
whisper from the Tuileries would make it impossible.
Guizot asked me for political news.
Senior.-I know none, and I have given up
conjecturing.
Beaumont.-No one has any policy; every one
lives au jour le jour.
Guizot.-Except Cavour. I honour him as the
only man living who has an object, and pursues it
straightforwardly through every danger and every
difficulty. I believe his object to be an unattainable
one, and, indeed, a bad one if it could be attained.
Italy ought not to consist of less, at the very least,
than four kingdoms- Piedmont with Lombardy,
Parma and Modena, the Popedom, Tuscany and
Naples. Even if France be weak enough to allow
this new composite kingdam to be formed, it will
tumble to pieces from the mutual repulsion of its
elements. But when I think only of the skill and
boldness of his means, I am carried away by my
admiration.
Beaumont.-So am I. He will ruin his country
with consummate ability. What a contrast there is




200


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


between his vigour and decision and the vacillation
of our master!
Guizot.-Not only of our master, but of every
other sovereign, except Queen Victoria.
Beaumont.-And Queen Victoria, as represented by
Lord John Russell, is not a model of consistency.
Guizot.-The inconsistency was rather in words
than in acts. A minister who has to obey the will
of the people in Italy, and to defy it in Ireland,
Corfu, and Hindostan, cannot always talk the same
language.
I mentioned to Guizot Beaumont's account of
the state of education in La Sarthe.
Guizot.-There must be some great fault in the
authorities. In Normandy we have nine hundred
schools. The normal school of my department,
Calvados, gives from  ten to twenty masters and
mistresses a-year; so it is in that part of the midi
which I know.
Senior.-Do the clergy take much part in education in Normandy?
Guizot.-None. It would be unpopular. Our
peasantry respect the clergy, but keep them strictly
within their spiritual functions. Education is not
one of them. No one would send a child to a school
managed by a priest.
Senior.-And yet they interfere in the elections.
The Bishop of Coutances returned at the last election
one of the deputies for La Manche.




1861.]


EDUCATION IN NORMANDY.


201


Guizot. —That could not have happened in
Calvados.
St. ililaire, Saturday, April 6th.-I breakfasted
with the Mohls and St. Hilaire, and walked with
him to the Institut. He is anxious and depressed.
Barthelemy St. Hilaire.*-I feel convinced that our
* Barth6l6my St. Hilaire, a learned philosopher and member
of the Institute, was born in 1815. During the Restoration he
belonged to the Court of Exchequer. In 1833 he renounced
politics for a time, and held professorships in the Ecole Polytechnique and the College de France.   At the revolution of
February he joined the Government, and, as deputy for Seine-etOise, voted with the moderate party. He supported the Ministry
of Odillon Barrot, but went over to the Gauche when the party of
the Elysee seemed to favour a counter-revolution. M. St. Hilaire
protested against the coup d'etat, refused to take the oath, and
renounced his professorship and the direction of the College de
France. After 1854 he devoted himself, entirely to learned pursuits, and took an active part in the discussions at the Acad6mie
des Sciences morales et politiques. In 1858, he was one of
the Commission charged to study the question of the Suez
Canal, and published in les Debats an account of his visit to
Egypt in the company of M. Lesseps. Mr. Senior was of this
party, and kept an interesting journal of all he saw. M. St.
Hilaire has translated into French the entire works of Aristotle;
he studied Sanscrit, and has written for the Acad6mie papers on
the Vedas and Budhism. He remained in Paris throughout the
siege in 1870-1, and was elected a member of the National
Assembly by an immense majority. M. St. Hilaire accepted the
office of ' Chief of the Cabinet' during the Presidentship of
M. Thiers, to whom he was a devoted friend, and he exercised
great influence in the Government.  He has always been a
consistent Republican.- ED.




202


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


master feels that from the dangers which are closing
round him war is the only issue. He cannot allow
the parliamentary discussion of his policy to continue,
for it is killing his reputation. He cannot prohibit
it; that would be a sign of weakness. It would be
running away from a dog who barks at you. He
cannot safely keep the Pope in Rome. It is an opposition to Italian unity, which neither our revolutionary party nor the Italian Carbonari will tolerate.
He cannot safely drive him or frighten him out of
Rome. Even now, though Imperial soldiers guard
the Vatican, and protect the patrimony of St. Peter,
the disgust occasioned by Louis Napoleon's refusal
to defend the rest of the Pontifical States has shaken
his throne. It is the principal cause which is driving
him to seek support from his old enemies, the Rouges.
What will be the storm if he turns from a feeble
friend of the Pope to a real enemy? At present he
is suspected by everybody -by the parti de l'ordre
and by the revolutionists; by those who wish for
peace, and by those who wish for war; by the
friends of religion, and by its enemies. He must
choose. He will cast in his lot with the revolutionary,
the anti-Papal, the war party. It is the most active,
the most energetic, and the least scrupulous party.
Fleury, his confidant-if he has one —said the other
day to a friend of mine, ' By this time next year we
shall have the Rhine, and the world will be astonished to see how easily we shall get it.' If you
are quiescent, if you do not interfere until it is too




1861.]    WAR WILL DESTROY THE EMPEROR.


203


late, Fleury is right. And the Chauvinist feelings
of gratified ambition and gratified vanity may render
him strong enough to silence or destroy the Chambers,
drive the Pope into exile, and perhaps make himself
head of a schismatic Gallican Church.
But if you come instantly to the assistance of
Germany, if a maritime war be as calamitous to
us as it has always been, if our commerce be ruined,
our harbours blockaded, our squadrons taken, and
the war drag on for six months, he is ruined. The
revenue will fall off, the conscription will be intolerable, the increase of the National debt will frighten
even our ignorant bourgeois-who now look on a
loan only as a placement, good, and therefore popular,
in proportion as it is improvident-and he will be
hooted out of the country, as his uncle was. But
how frightful it is to think that the most probable
escape from this despotism is through the humiliation of France. As has often been the case of
late, our destinies depend on your wisdom and your
courage. If you are wise enough to appreciate your
danger, and to provide the means of resisting it, and
bold enough to proclaim that you will use those
means, he may be deterred. A war with England,
fully prepared and exerting her full force, is a war
which he fears. He may seek to please the'revolutionary party by other expedients. I think that he
will fail. I think that he will be overthrown if he
remains at peace, that he will be overthrown if he
makes an unsuccessful war, and that the only




204


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


chance of his continuance in power is a successful
one.
I called on Circourt.
Believing, as every one else that I have seen
does, that war is imminent, he thinks that it will fall
on Austria. He saw a letter yesterday from the
governor of Temeswar to his wife in Paris, in which
he begs her not to come with the children to Hungary. As far as he can ascertain, the governor says,
the revolutionary party can command a force of
60,000 men, which is about the number of the
Austrian troops.
Senior.-What will be the pretext of the war?
Circourt.-It will probably be brought on by
Garibaldi. A large force obeying his orders is scattered over Piedmont and Lombardy. I believe that
he will throw them, by the paths that wind among
the spurs of the Alps to the north of Verona and
Bergamo, into the plains watered by the Tagliamento, and excite revolutionary movements to the
east of Venice. Austria will complain. Cavour will
say that he is deborde, that he bitterly laments and
strongly disapproves the invasion, but cannot control
the popular movement. Austria may lose her temper,
as she did in 1859, defeat the Garibaldians, and enter
Lombardy; and then we interpose to protect the
treaty of Villa Franca. Louis Napoleon may find
another pretext, by summoning Austria to execute
her part of the treaty, by giving a separate and




1861.]


PRUSSIAN HATRED OF AUSTRIA.


205


Italian administration to Venetia, withdrawing all
foreign troops, and putting the country into the
hands of a native army. 'I,' he will have a right to
say, ' have performed my part. I have recalled my
army, I have endeavoured to force Piedmont to perform her part. Her refusal does not release me from
my engagements to the people of Venetia. I promised them freedom-even independence. Perhaps,
when I consented to consider your engagement to
give them a separate Italian administration as a performance of my promise, I scarcely kept faith with
them. But I should be utterly faithless if I did not
keep you to that engagement. I summon you, therefore, to withdraw within fourteen days all nonItalian troops from Venetia. If you refuse or neglect
to do so, I am bound, as a man of honour, to remove
them myself.'
Senior.-With what feeling will Prussia hear that
such language has been used to a German power?
Circourt.-With delight. Her hatred of Austria
is such that she will rejoice in her danger and in her
humiliation.  Bavaria, Wurtemberg, Hesse Darmstadt, and perhaps Baden, will stand by Austria.
You, according to your practice, will temporise, wish
us to be beaten, as you did in 1859, but spend
nothing and risk nothing for the purpose. We shall
beat Austria, allow Venetia to decide her destinies by
universal suffrage, and take the Palatinate as our
reward.
Prussia meantime will be fighting with Denmark,




206


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


and trying to absorb, first Schleswig Holstein, then
Oldenburg and Mecklenburg, and at last Hanover
and Saxony.
One of the worst fruits of 1848 was the delivery
of Jutland and Zeeland into the power of the mob.
The King, a dissolute coward, quailed before the
Copenhagen rioters, and gave them a radical constitution. They have used it, as might have been
expected, in tyrannising over the part of their fellowcitizens with whom, as not being Jutes, they have no
sympathy. Holstein is altogether German. Schleswig
is inhabited by Jutes, Frisians, Angles, and Saxons,
the Jutes predominating only in the northern portion.
It had for centuries been, for the purposes of government, united to Holstein. They have had the same
states, the same courts, the same laws, the same
revenue, and the same administration. The Copenhagen radicals wish to alter all this. They want to
separate Schleswig and Holstein, to radicalise them
both, and to Danify Schleswig.
Schleswig and Holstein deny the power of the
Copenhagen mob to abolish their provincial constitutions. They say that the fact that the same person
who is sovereign of Schleswig and Holstein is also
king of Jutland does not authorise a Jutland mob
to dispose of provinces which, though under the same
sceptre, are as independent of Jutland as England
was of Hanover. Holstein is resolved to break off
from Denmark, and to become German. Schleswig
refuses to be separated from Holstein. Prussia wishes




1861.]   THE EMPEROR'S LIFE OF C:ESAR.


207


to annex them both, and this attempt alone will
occupy her sufficiently to prevent her assisting
Austria, even if she wished to do so.
I called on Mme. Cornu,* and found there M.
Maury, of the Academy of Inscriptions. He is assisting Louis Napoleon in his work on Julius Casar. I
asked after its progress.
Maury.-Much is finished, and the materials for
the rest are collected. He is still on his introduction,
and is now   at the times of the Gracchi.    But some
subsequent portions are completed, particularly the
story of Catiline.
Madame Cornu.-Catiline was always one of his
favourites. He maintains that Cicero and Sallust
were unjust to him. At one time he almost thought
him a patriot incompris, until he found that he had
pillaged Africa as governor, and escaped condemnation only by being defended by Cicero.
Maury. —He says, with truth, that if Catiline had
been, as Cicero makes him out, a mere robber, who
wished to burn and pillage Rome, he would have
* Madame Cornu was the wife of an eminent artist. Her
mother was dame de compagnie to Hortense, ex-queen of
Holland. She was bred up as a sister with Louis Napoleon,
visited him every year during his imprisonment at Ham, and
corrected his writings. She continued devoted to him until the
coup d'etat, when she broke with him, and in spite of his
persistent advances, would not be reconciled to him for nearly
twelve years. She died before the war of 1870.-ED.




208


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


raised the slaves. The Emperor treats him as the
leader of a political party-an extreme one, a mischievous one, but not a band of robbers and assassins.
Senior.-Is the Emperor still absorbed in his
literary work?
Maury.-As much as ever.       To-day when I
entered he was dictating a portion of it. He thinks
much more about it than about Italy. He does not
like the theatre, excepting sometimes farces that
amuse him. He cares little for society. His delight
is to get to his study, put on his dressing-gown and
slippers, and work at his history.
Senior.-What sort of a scholar is he?
MAaury.-In Latin, far above the average of
educated Frenchmen; perhaps on a par with educated Englishmen: he reads it without difficulty.
We continued to talk about Louis Napoleon after
Maury had left us.
Mme. Cornu showed me a vase of jade, taken from
the palace of Pekin, which he sent to her the day
before yesterday. It came without the cover. This
morning, Thelin, the Emperor's servant, who managed
his escape from Ham, brought her the cover. ' The
Emperor,' he said, ' spent all yesterday in looking
for it.'
Mme. Cornu.-Louis Napoleon is a strange being.
One who did not know him would think that he had
enough to do without wasting a day in looking for
the cover of a vase. But it is just like him. His




1861.]


EARLY LIFE OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


209


mind wants keeping. A trifle close to his eyes hides
from him the largest object at a distance. I have no
doubt that what Thelin said was true, and that he
did spend three or four hours yesterday hunting for
the cover of that vase. He wished to send it to me,
and, for the time, that wish absorbed him.
Senior. —What are your relations with him now?
Mne. Cornu.-We do not meet, but we correspond.  I am his internmediaire with many of the
German literati. I get for him information for his
book, as I did when he was at Ham for his book on
artillery.
We lived together, from our births till I was
about fourteen and he was about eighteen. During
the first seven years of this time he was surrounded
by all the splendour of a court. During the last
eight he was in Germany, looked down on by the
Germans-who would scarcely admit the Bonapartes
to be gentry, and would call him  Monsieur Bonaparte-and seeing nobody but his mother and her
suite. Afterwards he lived in Italy and in Switzerland, among Italians or Swiss, but never with French
people.
His long exclusion from the society of the higher
classes of his countrymen, and in a great measure
from the higher classes of the foreigners among whom
he resided, did him harm in many ways. It is wonderful that it did not spoil his manners.  He was
saved, perhaps, by having always before him   so
admirable a model as his mother. But it made him
VLO I                               P




210


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


somewhat of a parvenu —what you would call a tufthunter. He looked up to people of high rank with
a mixture of admiration, envy, and dislike. The
more difficult he found it to get into their society,
the more he disliked them and the more he courted
them. I had an odd proof in myself of his fondness
for mere titles. I had been at a German court, where
they proposed to make me a dame d'honneur.
' Impossible,' I answered, 'for I am not noble.'
' But,' they replied, 'we will make you noble.'
When I told this to Louis Napoleon, he said,
' Why did you not accept? You might have afterwards given up the office, and kept your nobility.'
I could not make him understand my contempt for
such artificial nobility.
The great progress in political knowledge made
by the higher classes of the French between 1815
and 1848 was lost to him. When we met in 1826,
after three years of absence, I was struck with his
backwardness as to all political matters. While I
had been learning he had been stationary.  The
works of his uncle, and the conversation of his
mother and of her friends, all old imperialists, formed
his political education.  He learned something in
Italy which was bad, and in Switzerland which was
good, and more in England, the country that he likes
best.
During his adult life he has taken a little from
every country in which he has resided, except from
France. In France he has never lived, except as a




1861.] HIS OPINIONS ARE THOSE OF THE PEOPLE. 211


child, a prisoner, or a sovereign. It will seem a
paradox to you, that it is to his want of sympathy
with the fielings of the higher classes in France, and
to dislike or ignorance of their opinions, that I
attribute much of his success. His opinions and
feelings are those of the French people from 1799 to
1812, as they were fashioned by Napoleon during his
thirteen years of despotism, war, and victory. Now,
those opinions and feelings, all modified or abandoned
by our higher classes, are still those of the multitude.
They despise parliamentary government, despise the
Pope, despise the priests, delight in profuse expenditure, delight in war, hold the Rhine to be our
rightful frontier, and that it is our duty to seize all
that is within it, and have no notion of any foreign
policy except one of aggression and domination. The
people and he, therefore, perfectly agree. It is not
that he has learned their sentiments-how could he
in prison or in exile?- but that they are his own.
I have no, doubt that the little that he heard, and the
less that he attended to, from the persons whom he
saw between 1848 and 1852, about liberty, selfgovernment, economy, the supremacy of the Assembly, respect for foreign nations, and fidelity to
treaties, appeared to him to be the silliest trash.
So it would have appeared to all the lower classes
in France, so it would have appeared to the army,
drawn from   those classes, and exaggerating their
political errors.
As soon, therefore, as he appealed from the aristo



212


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


cracy and the bourgeoisie to the lower classes and
the army, as soon as the people and the army recognised the tone, and the feelings, and the opinions of
the Empire, they rushed enthusiastically to his side.
I do not, as many persons do, admire him for having
shown quickness of apprehension in divining the
sentiments of the people, or even in conjecturing
them: he simply took them for granted. He supposed the Orleanists and Legitimists to be governed
by their prejudices, and the Parliamentarians by their
vanities or their interests, and all the rest of the
nation to be Bonapartist, to participate in the Idees
Naploleoniennes.
Those were his ideas. He naturally believed that
they were those of the people, and he was right.
Senior.-Do you believe that he intends war?
Mmne. Cornu.-I do not. I believe that he intends peace. He will not seek war, though it may
be forced on him.
Senior.-From Hungary?
Mme. Cornu.-I think not. The Hungarians are
poor creatures. Prince Napoleon told me that after
Solferino the Emperor desired him to talk to Kossuth
and Klapka. They admitted to him that at that
time there were only 10,000 Austrian troops in
Hungary, yet they asked for the assistance of 30,000
Frenchmen to enable the Hungarians to rise.
Senior.-What has been the effect of the parliamentary discussion?
Mme. Cornu.-Good.     He is delighted.  It has




1861.]


PROBABILITY OF WAR.


213


proved his confidence and his strength. His enemies
have shown how unfit they are to govern, and on
one important point, on which he is opposed to the
republican party, Italian unity, the nation has declared itself on his side.
I called on General de Fenelon, the son-inlaw  of Marshal Randon, Minister of War, and
found there Admiral Fourichon. We talked of the
trireme.
Fourichon.-I think that with her 126 oars she
might make in calm water from four to five knots an
hour. A light wind, giving her some assistance from
her sail, without much sea, might help her a little.
The Emperor seems to have solved the problem of the
trireme. But what was a pentecontor? What were
the vessels propelled by oars, aud large enough to
carry six hundred soldiers, besides their rowers, and
provisions and water for ten days?
We talked of the demolition and rebuilding of
Paris, of the restoration of the Sainte Chapelle and
of Notre Dame, of the churches of Caen, and, at last,
of the Duonmo of Milan.
Fee'lon.-I was there for so short a time I
scarcely saw it.
Fourichon.-I hope that you will be there again
soon, and for much longer.


As he spoke these words he left us, and I asked




214


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Fenelon if he thought Fourichon's wishes likely to be
accomplished.
Fe'nelon.-No; the Emperor does not wish for
war. No preparations are going on. Half the army
is en conge.   No one has better opportunities of
judging than my father-in-law, and he utterly disbelieves in war, except in one event, an attack on us
by Prussia.*
Senior.-That supposes the Prussians to be absolutely mad.
Fenelon.-It supposes them only to be passion's,
for a nation under the dominion of passion ceases to
reason.  Here is a pile of Prussian pamphlets and
newspapers, full of threats and of plans for dismembering us.   Look at the motto of this pamphlet,
written by a friend of mine: ' Frisch  ewagt ist halb
gewonnen.'   They admit that they shall be beaten
for three years, but by that time their soldiers are to
have become veterans, and they will have found out
their generals.  This, without doubt, is madness, but
such madness is incidental to Germans.   The Prussians of 1861 are not madder than their fathers were
in 1805.
Senior.-Well, I do not share your fears of a
Prussian aggression; my fears are from Italy.
Fenelon.-There, again, the only danger is from
passion.
* I believe F6nolon said this on purpose to have it reported.
-N. W. SENIOR.




1861.]


INSTABILITY OF UNITED ITALY.


215


Senior. —Is there none from interest? Does not
France think it her interest to prevent the unity of
Italy?  May not the Emperor think it his interest to
divert your attention from  home affairs to foreign
ones?
Fenelon. —Why should he?  You live among his
enemies, who have convinced themselves, and try to
convince you, that he is unpopular. And so he is,
among those whom he excludes from     power. But
that is not the case with the bulk of the nation.
He has given to us security and tranquillity at home,
he has restored to us our south-western frontier, and
has replaced France, where she ought to be, at the
head of the Continent. The debates on the address
have shown his confidence and his popularity. The
fullest liberty, the freest license, have been given; a
liberty and a license, of which his uncle, in his best
days, would have been afraid. And the result is a
general ratification of his policy, at home and abroad.
Of liberty we have as much as is fit for us, and as
much as we wish for.
As to Italian unity, I see no objection to it. I
think, that, for the next fifty years, the King of Italy
must lean on us. I admit, that almost all Frenchmen, except the Republican party, dislike it as much
as the Emperor does; but neither he, nor we, think
its prevention worth a war. We do not believe,
indeed, in its permanence.
Senior. —And what do you expect in its place?
Fenelon. —A gachis.




216


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-A Murat in Naples?
Fenelon.-That would be giving Sicily to you.
Senior.-We would not take it.
Fenelon.-I did not mean that you would take it
under your sovereignty, but merely under your protectorate. It is the most fertile country in Europe.
Senior.-What use would its fertility be to us,
except for purposes of trade, and we can trade with
Sicily without being encumbered by its protectorate?
The Ionian Islands have cured us of protectorates.
What will be the fate of the Pope in the 'gachis? '
Fenelon.-We shall remain in Rome to protect
him. To leave him in the hands of the Piedmontese
would be to transfer to Piedmont the influence which
we now possess, by holding in our hands the Head of
the Church.
Senior.-And what will be the fate of Piedmont?
Fenelon.-If she has sense, she may keep what she
has in northern Italy, down to the frontiers of Umbria
and the Marches. If she is mad, and attacks Austria
she will be disgracefully beaten. I have served two
campaigns by the side of the Piedmontese army, and
know what it is.
Senior.-When did you reach the Crimea?
Fne'lon.-Just after the fall of Sebastopol. Your
army became towards the end of the war a very fine
one, equal to the best that I have seen. It excited
the admiration of Liiders, the Russian general, to
whom we gave a review.
Senior.-What was the Russian?




1861.]


EFFECT OF THE DEBATES.


217


Fenelon.-I saw little of it. I went once or twice
to Simferopol, the head-quarters.  The men looked
dirty and poor. Some of the officers came to visit us.
About one in a hundred was a gentleman, and the
gentlemen were distinguished men; but the other
ninety-nine were blackguards, ignorant and drunken.
We soon found it necessary to refuse to see any who
did not bring special recommendations.
Monday, April 8th.-I called this morning on
D. E. F., and we went together to a great printinghouse.
D. E. F. ---I feel some doubt whether Louis Napoleon has gained or lost by the recent debates. He
has changed his fulcrum. Till now he relied on the
anti-revolutionary party, on those who were willing,
nay, eager,
'Propter vitam vivendi perdere causas,'
whom le Spectre Rouge frightened into the sacrifice
of freedom of action, of speech, almost of thought, for
the sake of servile safety. All distrusted him, all
feared himL, many hated him, but they crouched under
him for protection. The revolutionary party feared
him, too, but their fear was mixed with hope. They
thought that they saw war under his promises of
peace, apostasy under his Catholicism, plunder and
socialism under his conservative mask. He is now
showing them that they were right. By quarrelling
with the Church, by courting the revolutionary party




218


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


in Italy and in Hungary, by admitting that the
uneducated masses have a right to drive out their
sovereigns and to change all the domestic institutions
and all the foreign relations of their countries, by proclaiming, in fact, the doctrine of Le peuple souveraiz,
he has gained the Revolutionists and necessarily lost
the Conservatives. II a change d'assiette.
His new supporters are more active, more energetic,
more unscrupulous than his old ones were. They
make revolutions; the parti de l'ordre merely submits to them. But they are far more exigeants, more
impulsive, and less consistent; and what makes them
more formidable, they are honest. Their objects are
often ill chosen, for their knowledge is superficial,
and their prejudices and their passions are violent,
but they are willing to sacrifice whatever they have,
often not much more than their lives, in the pursuit
of them.  They sympathise with Louis Napoleon in
most of his hatreds. They hate the Pope, they hate
the bourgeoisie, they hate the aristocracy, they hate
parliamentary government.    They sympathise also
with many of his desires. They like an insolent,
interfering, aggressive foreign policy; they like to see
treaties torn up, international law laughed at, the rights
and interests of foreign nations disregarded, in short,
every restraint on the will or the caprice of France
broken through. They like to see all this begun and
maintained by an enormous army and a profuse expenditure.
They differ from him in some respects. He is




1861.] EMPEROR WANTS WAR WITH ENGLAND.


219


opposed to Italian unity; they have set their hearts
on it. Garibaldi is their hero. They would precipitate a war with England; he is, I think, determined
on having one, but would defer it.
Senior. —What are your grounds for thinking that
he is determined on a war with England?
D. E. F.-My grounds are his maritime preparations. I hear that they are working day and night at
Toulon; the tone of his newspapers, the care which
he takes to keep open or to create subjects of quarrel
with you. He never will settle with you the question
of the Newfoundland fisheries. He is trying to irritate
France against you on the Syrian business. We care
nothing about Syria; we have no subjects there, or
commerce, or even travellers. But for him, we should
never have heard of Druses or Maronites. He claims
for France the protectorate over the Maronites. I
believe that he himself excited the Druses against
them, and them against the Druses. His papers
accuse you of being the protectors of the Druses;
they publish the most extravagant lies about the
massacres of the Maronites.  They accuse you of
having occasioned those massacres, and of trying to
screen your instruments, the Druses. I have been
requested to become a member of a society over
which the Archbishop of Paris presides, the object
is to relieve the sufferings of the Christians in Syria.
The Archbishop sent word to me that my presence
would be useful, as it would show the sympathy of
the Republicans with the Eastern Christians. I con



220


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


sented, partly because it was difficult to refuse such
an appeal, and partly because I hope to be useful in
preventing their mixing politics with their benevolence. But I fear that I may have to retire.
Your only real friends are the Constitutionalists,
among whom    I include the Republicans. We, the
Republicans, prefer a republic to a constitutional
monarchy.   My expectation is, that Louis Napoleon
will be overthrown by an unsuccessful war. My wish
is, that he should fall under the hatred and contempt
which are accumulating against him in peace.
Senior. —But you admit that the Conservatives
do not make revolutions?
D. E. F.-No, but the Republicans do. There are
400 men in the atelier which we have just quitted;
I could carry every one of them to die behind a
barricade. Between us and the Revolutionists is the
common bond of honesty, of a real wish to serve the
people, and a real determination to meet danger in
their cause. By our writings, by our conversations,
even by tie parliamentary debates, poor as they are,
we hope to instruct the Revolutionists. If their eyes
are opened they and we together will shake down by
a single effort the imperial structure which nothing
but their ignorance, and the passions produced by
their ignorance, allowed to rise.
Tuesday, April 9th.-I called this morning on
Vuitry. He is Vice-President of the Financial Committee of the Conseil d'etat.




1861.]    STATE OF FRENCH ARMAMENTS.


221


I asked him as to the state of the French armaments.
Vuitry.-They are on their usual establishment,
except that our 25,000 men in Rome, 12,000 in
China, and 13,000 in Syria, require an excess of
50,000 men. But after these extras, our army
amounts to only 400,000 men.
Senior.-And is not that 100,000 too much?
Louis Philippe had not more than 300,000.
Vuitfr. —I quite agree with you, 300,000 men
would be ample. But our master likes to be feared,
and to arrange the affairs of Europe as it may suit
him. He has gratified his ambition, and now wishes
to gratify his vanity.
Senior.-And what is the object of his maritime
preparations? Are they also mere scarecrows, to
frighten without being used?
Vuitry.-His maritime preparations are made
merely in obedience to the Report of the Naval
Commission of 1849.    It recommended seventeen
millions extra a-year to be employed in the transformation of our fleet from sails to steam. We are
doing no more than was then decided on, with the
assent of the Assembly which was certainly pacific.
Senior.-But your vaisseaux blindes are in addition to this sum.
Vuitry.-No; they are included in it; we make
only two a-year. You are right in preparing yourselves; but I see no symptom of warlike intentions
here. If war were probable, the Emperor would not




222


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


set on foot these enormous public works, nor would
capitalists be found to carry them on.
Senior. —What is the revenue of the city of
Paris?
Vuitry.-110,000,000.
Senior.-And the debt?
Vuitry.-270,000,000 (about 11,000,0001. sterling).
We consider our Parisian finances as flourishing,
especially by comparison. Marseilles owes 38,000,000,
and is borrowing 38,000,000 more. Amiens is deeply
in debt; so, indeed, is every large town. I own that
I look on all this with alarm. A building crisis in
Paris, though not imminent, seems to be certain.
The prices of labour, and of materials, and of land,
are constantly rising. Unless the price of houses
rises too, there must be a loss. As yet the rise in
rent and in price has kept pace with the increased
expense of construction. But the supply of large
houses must in time overtake the demand. Pereire
alone has entered into building contracts to the
amount of 40,000,000, (1,600,0001.) The aggregate
of the engagements of smaller men must be much
greater. All the houses are mortgaged. As soon as
the supply exceeds the demand they will cease to be
worth the mortgage money. 1000, or 10,000 houses,
may be put up to sale in one day. 50,000, or 100,000
men may be suddenly out of work. There will be
wide private ruin, and perhaps public danger.
Senior.-What is the state of your other trades?
Vuitry.-The silk trade is suffering from the bad




1861.]


COMPENSATION FOR HOUSES.


223


state of the American market.    No ribbons are
bought, and St. Etienne is starving. The cotton
manufacturers are frightened by the treaty. They
are not afraid, they say, of English competition in
ordinary periods. They can make a profit at the
price which gives a profit in England. But if a
commercial crisis comes, if vast masses of English or
Scotch goods must be sold for what they will fetch,
however below the cost of production, the market may
be spoiled for months. They may have to reduce
wages, to work their mills at short time, and even at
short time to accumulate stocks. The strong would
get through such difficulties, the weak would sink.
The trades that are in the best state are the metallurgic trades.
Circourt, the Mohls, Simon, D. E. F., and St.
Hilaire, breakfasted with us. M. de Chambrun came
in late. He had been in court, where his claim for
the value of a house, that had been taken for one of
the new boulevards, was disposed of this morning.
M. de Chambrun.-The jury has given me all
that I asked, 250,000 francs, about twenty-five years'
purchase, which is good for house property. When
it was over, one of the jurymen said to me, 'You
might have had twice as much, if you had asked for
it. We gave yesterday 5000 francs for a cottage
worth 2000. We think that the only way of stopping
this mania of demolition is to give whatever is asked.
Simon.-I am not sure that such a treatment will




224


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


cure the malady. Madame Hausmann, the wife of the
Prefet de la Seine, said to a friend of mine, ' No one
is safe. Not less than twenty-seven houses belonging
to my husband have been pulled down, many just
after he had bought them. It seems to me that his
placemenzts in houses are a source of constant plague.
No sooner does he buy a house than it is demolished.'
Senior.-I hear that Madame        's beautiful
house in the Champs Elysees is to be pulled down.
Circourt.-Hausmann has nothing to do with that.
You know that Madame ---    and Morny have long
been in partnership. When his marriage put an end
to the connexion, the accounts were settled by arbitration. A balance was awarded to her, but much
less than her claim. She went crying to the Emperor,
and said that she was ruined, that the arbitrators
had favoured Morny as a great man and a friend of
the Emperor's, and that she could not live in her
house. The Emperor cannot refuse any application;
so he told her that if she must give up her house, he
would get her a good price for it. But he found that
it could not be easily sold standing-at least, for a
price above its value. So it was resolved to make it
a case of expropriation pour cause d'utilite publique.
For this purpose a vast space around the rond point
is to be cleared, including, of course, the site of
Madame -— 's house; and large hotels are to
be built, with gardens in front of them. She will
get for her house twice what it cost her; it will be
pulled down, and the site become a grass plot.




1861.]


BEHAVIOUR OF A MARQUIS.


225


St. Hilaire.-The history of Billault's house is
amusing. The Emperor gave it to him - at least, the
money to build it. He was living in it when he
became minister. Whereupon he said, ' As minister,
I must be lodged by the Government. I do not wish
to give trouble, or to create expense. I am satisfied
with the modest house which I inhabit. I will let it
to the Government, and have no objection to continuing to reside in it.'
D. E. F.-I wish that the greatest crimes of the
Government were its jobs. I could bear its prodigality, if it refrained from positive oppression.
Senior. —What is the sort of oppression to which
you allude?
D. E. F. —Its interference with the course of
justice between man and man. An humble friend of
mine, a watchmaker, is married to a woman who
is a chemisiere. She received an order from the
wife of the Marquis ---, a man high in the Emperor's favour, for some dozens of chemises and
window-blinds, much worked, for they were to cost
3800 francs. They were sent home. The Marchioness was much pleased with them, and without
paying for them gave a further order.  The two
orders amounted to 6000 francs. The woman consulted her husband. Six thousand francs was about
half the amount of her capital, the fruit of twenty-five
years of saving; and she feared being out of it f;)r
some time. The husband joined in her fears, and
resolved not to execute the second order until the
VOL. I.                             Q




226


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


first was paid for. When the bill was sent to the
Marchioness, she referred my friend to her husband.
The Marquis looked at it, and said, 'My good friend,
I am very sorry for you. You have lost your 3800
francs. I give to my wife a monthly allowance, quite
sufficient for her just wants, and I make it perfectly
well known that I never pay her debts. If I acted
otherwise, she would   ruin me.'   My friend   first
argued, then implored, and at last said that he
would not be vole irnpunement.
'You call me,' said the Marquis, 'un voleur.  If
a witness were present, you would spend the rest of
your life in prison.'
My friend went to the juge de paix, and made his
complaint.
Are you aware,' said the judge, 'of what you are
doing? That you are proposing to bring an action
against a man haut place, et dans la faveur de l'Empereur? Even if you could succeed, you would be
ruined, for what honnete homme would employ you
or your wife after you had made such a scandal?
But you will fail, and you will go to prison for the
costs.'
'Bien, said the watchmaker,    alors je saurai ce
que c'est que la justice en France.'
' Quoi,' said the judge, 'vous injuriez la justice?
Savez-vous que c'est une afctire de la police correctionelle '
' Je n'injure pas la justice,' said my friend, 'je
(it seeulement que je saurai ce qu'elle est.'




1861.]


SERVILITY OF JUDGES.


227


My friend is a resolute man. He has stood behind
a barricade, and has moral as well as physical courage.
He is of the stuff of which martyrs are made. The
action was brought and failed. My friend, as I said,
is a martyr. Foiled in a civil action, he resolved to
prosecute the Marchioness for escroquerie. But a new
difficulty arose. No advocate of any eminence would
undertake his cause. I applied to several; to men
whom their liberal sympathies would, as I weakly
supposed, have made eager to support a poor man in
his contest with a rich and powerful robber. Not
one of them has sufficient leisure. The whole bar
seems to be overwhelmed with business. At last we
have obtained the services of a man, not eminent
enough to have much to risk-but we shall fail. Not
only will my friend be ruined, but his oppressor will
escape exposure. The trial will not excite interest, it
will be ill-pleaded, and the journals will not be
allowed to report it.
Madame Mohl.-I do not wonder at the refusal of
the advocates. Such is the base servility of our
judges, that the Government can always ruin any
advocate by whom it has been offended. Le mot
d'ordre is given to them that his clients shall always
fail. This is soon found out, and his practice is
gone.
St. Hilaire.-I have known many such instances.
No prudent:man takes legal proceedings against a
friend of the Government. No prudent advocate will
plead such a cause.




228


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-What is the cause of the Emperor's embarrassments? With more than a million sterling
a-year, how has he managed to owe three years'
income?
Circourt.-Profuse liberality and unlimited gaspillage. Almost everything that he, or any of the
court, have touched, or looked at, becomes perquisite.
Perquisites are the sieves through which the revenues
of great houses leak. Toward the end of her reign,
the Empress Catherine found that the civil list of her
son Paul was much in debt. She sent for the accounts,
and found a charge for some thousands of bottles of
brandy for her son's own use. She was alarmed, and
talked to him about it.  He assured her that he never
touched brandy. She sent for earlier accounts, and
still found charges for brandy, which were at last
traced up to the day of his birth. It appeared that
when he was born, there were some slight excoriations
on his legs. The nurse had sent for a glass of brandy
as a lotion for them. From that time a bottle of
brandy was sent to him, or, at least, charged to him,
every day.
April llth.-Madame Cornu, Mrs. Grote, Madame
Mohl, Circourt, Target, Duvergier, and Leonce de
Lavergne,"  breakfasted with us.
* L6once de Lavergne, a well-known politician and writer on
political economy and agriculture. In early life he was one of
the chief editors of the Revue du Midi. In 1842 he went to




1861.]   SENSIBILITY OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


229


Circourt told us that he had acquired a new
neighbour —the Emperor-who has purchased Malmaison, and a considerable tract all round it, and
is busy planting and gardening.
Circourt.-He comes to Malmaison once or twice
a-week, pointing out, indeed writing on little tickets,
with his own hands, the place for every shrub. He
is a most considerate purchaser, pays liberally, and
is anxious that no one should suffer inconvenience
by removal. A strange contrast to the indifference
with which he turns tens of thousands into           the
streets, to make a boulevard or a square.
Madame     Cornu.-I have often said of him      qu'il
a la sensibilite dans l'oeil.  He is deeply affected by
any distress that he actually sees. He is indifferent
to any that is not brought before him in detail. One
day I found him     at Ham    in great grief.  The man
who waited on him had died the day before, leaving
a wife and family in distress.
' I gave them,' he said to me,' three hundred
francs, but that will do little.'
Paris, entered the Conseil d'Etat as Maitre des Requetes, then
became sub-director in the Ministry for foreign affairs, and
deputy in 1846. After the Revolution of 1848 he resigned office,
and wrote, for the Revue des Deux Mondes, articles on contemporary
history, political economy, &c. In 1855 he succeeded M. Leon
Faucher as Member of the Academie des Sciences morales et
politiques. In 1871 he was elected a member of the National
Assembly by a majority of 30,115 votes, and sat on the Right
Centre; but his health has prevented his taking much part in
politics. He is a member of the Senate.-ED.




2,)0


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


' How much have you left?' I asked.
' Sixty,' he answered. ' I can manage with that
for a fortnight, until my next remittances come. The
Government must lodge and feed me.'
While we were talking, the man's daughter-a
girl of about fourteen-came in to thank him. She
was weeping, and he began to sob too. Suddenly
he went to his escritoire, took out the sixty francs
that he had left, and gave them to her.
'It is lucky,' I said, ' that I have 100 francs more
than my journey home will cost me.' So I gave them
to him, or I should have left him utterly penniless.
Senior.-How came he to be so poor? I was told
that when he was taken at Boulogne he had 160,000
francs, which were deposited with the Maire, and
returned to him after his trial.
Mladame Cornu.-He had much more than that.
His coat was lined with banknotes. It disappeared
with its contents; but, as you say, the 160,000
francs were returned to him. He sold, too, almost
all the little property which he had; but nearly all
went in buying up the pensions to which the old
servants of his mother were entitled.
He said to them, 'I am condemned to imprisonment for life. With my active habits, imprisonment
will kill me in a few years, and my will may not be
respected. You had better take the value of your
pension, while I am allowed to pay it to you.'
Almost all that remained he spent in allowances
to those who had accompanied him in his expedition,




1861.]            POLISH MOVEMENT.                    231
and were in different prisons. Persigny had a great
deal. The result was, that during the latter part of
his imprisonment he was very poor, and had the
utmost difficulty in getting together the money which
was necessary for his escape.
April 13th.-Count Zamoyski* called on us.          He
is looking anxiously on the Polish movement.
Zamoyski.-The only results of the last insurrection were thirty years of misery and servitude. It is
* [This note has been kindly given to me by a Polish friend.]
General Count Ladislas Zamoyski, one of the most eminent
of the Poles of the last half century, was aide-de-camp to the
Grand Duke Constantine previously to the commencement of the
revolution of 1830-31, in which he took a leading part. After
the revolution was suppressed he proceeded to Cracow, and thence
to Paris, where he took up his residence with his uncle, Prince
Adam Czartoryski. He was frequently employed by the Prince on
diplomatic missions, and the skill and ability which he displayed
on these occasions gained him a high reputation among the European governments. When the Crimean war broke out he proposed
to Lord Palmerston that a Polish legion should be formed in
England for the purpose of assisting the Poles to recover their
independence, which, he urged, would far more effectually cripple
the power of Russia than the destruction of Sebastopol. Lord
Palmerston declined this proposal, saying that he did not ' wish to
make an enemy of Russia;' but he permitted the formation of a
Polish corps in Turkey, under the name of the Cossacks of the
Sultan, as a contingent to the British army in the Crimea. The
close of the war after the capture of Sebastopol dashed the hopes
of the Poles. Count Zamoyski, however, did not relax his efforts
to serve the cause of his country, and to the day of his death he
neglected no opportunity to bring the Polish question before the
parliaments and the governments of Europe. He was well known
and respected among our statesmen of some twenty years ago as
an able negotiator and a warm-hearted patriot, animated with a
chivalrous spirit which is too seldom found in the political men of
the day.-G.
VOL. I.




232


CONVERSATIONS.


[1863.


a proof of the wonderful vigour of Polish nationality,
that those thirty years have not Russianised us. The
higher orders might have been expected to retain
their Polish feelings, but the lower classes might
have been forgiven if they had adopted the sentiments and habits of the great nation with which they
have been incorporated-if they had become Russians,
as the Alsatians have become French, and the Scotch
and Welsh have become English. But it has not
been so. The lower classes are as anti-Russian as
the higher.  A thousand peasants, with scythes and
pitchforks for arms, crowded to Warsaw as soon as
they heard the firing.  The Polish employes have
given up their situations. Every document printed
in Russian is ignored. The streets are full of people,
quiet and unarmed, who chant prayers for deliverance
to the Virgin-the Queen of Poland. Gortschakoff
asked the crowd what grievance they had to complain of. ' That you are here,' was the answer.
Senior.-Have they refused to pay taxes?
Zamoyski.-Not as yet. After the insurrection of
1831, Nicholas thoroughly disarmed the country.
There cannot be a civil war, as the Poles have no means
of fighting. I rejoice in this. It is almost a compensation for all the misery that Nicholas inflicted on us.
Senior. —But if you pay your taxes, and remain
quiet at home, what harm does your passive resistance do to Russia? It is a mere protestation.
Zamoyski. —It injures the prestige of Russia.
Government, you know, is a matter of opinion. No




1861.]


INSURRECTION IN HUNGARY.


233


sovereign could reign if his subjects were unanimously disaffected. Now, as far as the Poles are
concerned, this is the case with Russian Poland.
They make no specific complaint, they ask for no
redress, they do not promise that on any conditions
whatever they will be good subjects; their only
answer to expostulation is, 'We want to undo the
partition; we want restitution; we want a wicked
injustice to be redressed. We have been kidnapped;
we want to be set free.' No concessions, no reforms,
no favours, will satisfy this demand. We do not
ask for good government, we require self-government. As Russia will not voluntarily grant this,
and we cannot force her to do so, I cannot see my
way to any solution of the Polish question, unless
France and England, or one of them, interfere.
Prussia is hostile to us, Austria is hostile to us; even
Hungary, though we have a common enemy, does
not sympathise with us.
Senior.-In what capacity were you in Hungary
during the insurrection?
Zamoyski.-As a spectator, I was sent thither by
my uncle. He wished one of his family to watch
what was taking place.
Senior.-What impression did Kossuth make on
you?
Zamoyski.-That of a very great speaker, and of
a very great rogue. He seemed to me to be a man
without moral sense-without any perception of the
difference between right and wrong. When he was




234


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


on his way to England, he made a violent antiEnglish speech at Marseilles. Some days after he
panegyrised England at Southampton. When we
met, I alluded to the difference between the two
speeches. ' Of course,' he answered, 'the character of
a speech depends on the character of the audience.'
I was returning to France, through Turkey, when he
was there as a refugee. He sent word to me that he
was unwell, and begged me to visit him. I found
him with Batthyany and Perczel.
enior. —Who are they?
Zamnoyski.-Batthyany is the brother of a man
whom you must know in England. He was one of
Kossuth's ministers, and highly valued by him. He
said that if he could give a king to Hungary, it
should be Batthyany. Perczel was their best general.
Senior.-I thought that Goergei had been their best.
Zamnoyski.-No. Gcergei is a good general of division, but not a great commander. He is a rascal.
He was put at the head of the Polish army, in order
to capitulate, as the Russians would not treat with
Kossuth. Instead of capitulating, he surrendered at
discretion-perhaps I ought not to say at discretion, for
lie made one stipulation, and only one —it was for
his own personal safety. The Russians shot twelve
generals, his companions in arms, the next day.
Well, when I found Kossuth, Batthyany, and Perczel,
they sent me a paper, drawn up by Kossuth, which
they had signed, and sent to the Porte. It was to
offer Hungary to the Sultan.




1861.]


DUC D AUMALE S LETTER.


235


' We find,' it said, 'that we were mistaken as
to the Turkish Government.      We find that it is liberal
and enlightened, and in the name of Hungary we request
that she be incorporated in the Turkish dominions.'
The Hungarian movement can come to no good.
The   Magyars,    Slavs, and    Germans,    will   never
coalesce.  As soon    as they are    released  from  the
weight of the Austrian throne, they will split into
fragments. I hear that the inhabitants of the military
colonies —the refuse of all countries, thieves and
murderers —are now requiring their nationality to be
respected.
I dined at the Embassy, and met Lord Clyde.
Just as I was going thither, M. de Chambrun brought
me the Duc d'Aumale's letter to Prince Napoleon."
* The following are some passages from the Duc d'Aumale's
letter to Prince Napoleon.
'One thing astounds me, and that is, that my grandfather
found no favour in your sight: for you, like him, sat on the
left side of a Republican Assembly. There, indeed, the resemblance stops, for he expiated his fault. He left the National
Convention to mount the scaffold, while you descended from the
benches of the Mountain to enter the splendid mansion in which
the Duke of Orleans was born. When the Bonapartes threaten to
shoot people, their word may be relied upon. And note this,
Prince, that of all the promises made by you and yours, that is
the only one upon which I could rely. For it must be admitted
that the present French Government, all fortunate as it has been
in many respects, is less successful as regards the fulfilment of
promises than in other things. One man only swore to the




236


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


'It has just appeared,' he said, 'and of course
will be seized as soon as the authorities have heard
of it.'
I took it with me to the Embassy.        We looked
at it before dinner, and Lord Cowley rather laughed
at Chambrun's expectations.
Lord Cowley.-It is forcible, and would be worth
suppressing; but it will be republished in London
and in Belgium, and the seizure would only advertise it.
He sent, however, for half a-dozen copies, as I
have done; but the answer to our messenger was,
' Saisie.'
After  dinner I had     a long   conversation  with
Lord Cowley. I asked his opinion as to Louis
Napoleon's plans.
Lord Cowley.-I believe that he has none.         He
feels that he is in a great scrape in Italy-sees no
issue, and waits till events open      one.   The last
campaign has sickened him of war. It has shown
him vividly its calamities and its dangers; and of
Republican Constitution, and that man was the author of
the 2nd of December. The same man said, The Empire is peace:
and we have had the wars of the Crimea and Lombardy. In
1859 Italy was to be free to the Adriatic; Austria is still at
Verona and Venice. The temporal power of the Pope was to
be respected: we know what has become of that: and the
Grand Dukes are still waiting for their restoration which was
announced by the Peace of Villafranca.'-ED.




1861.]  INVASION OF ENGLAND IMPOSSIBLE.


237


all wars, that which he most dreads is one with
England. I believe that he agrees with me in
thinking an invasion impossible, except in the event
(which also appears to me impossible) of his having
the command of the sea.
When we were talking one day of his naval
armaments, he said, ' I kow that as against you
they are useless. I know that you will always be
our superiors at sea, and I would reduce our naval
armaments if I could. But the French have set their
hearts on being at least the second maritime power,
and I do not venture to disappoint them. I know,'
he added, ' that with the new artillery, neither your
arsenals nor ours are safe. Corvettes blindes and
canons rayes could destroy either, or both of them.
And this would be to the advantage of those who,
at the beginning of a war, are masters at sea.'
Senior.-Was he sincere?
Lord Cowley.-I think so  I do not believe him
to be false of malice prepense. though he often appears
to be so. He is a bad politician; he has no advisers
whom he ought to trust, or coes trust. He is a man
travelling without a guide or a map in a country
which he imperfectly knows. Such a man may announce that is he going to a particular place, and
may fully intend to do so; but he may take the
wrong road, or he may find on his way a mountain
or a river of which he knew nothing.
When Drouyn de Lhuys left office he told me
that he knew   of no one to put in his place.




238


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


He asked my advice. I did not venture to give
any.
Later in the evening I talked to J. K.
J. K.-While Drouyn de Lhuys was in Vienna I
saw Louis Napoleon every day. He was at that time
anxious for peace.
'I do not know,' he said, ' what is thought of the
English generals, but ours seem to me to know little
of European war, and this double command is fatal.
Why cannot the English take the command of the
united fleet, and we of the united army? Let their
contingent to the army be one-fifth, and let us supply
one-fifth of the naval force.'
'I see,' I answered, ' only one difficulty. The
general who commands the English contingent, and
all under him, will obey implicitly every order of the
French commander-in-chief. But not a captain of a
French gunboat will obey the English admiral.'
It was, I think, on a Sunday that I heard that
Drouyn de Lhuys and Lord John had arranged a
peace, and he sent for me on Tuesday. He was
walking and smoking in the garden, and he asked
me to walk up and down, and talk the matter
over.
'I think,' he said, ' that it is a good arrangement.
What think you?'
'Well,' I said, it does not appear to me that the
Russian predominance in the Black Sea will be materially affected.'




1861.]


THE CRIMEAN WAR.


239


'Not,' he replied, ' by our having now a right to
keep an equal force there?'
' She is to keep Sebastopol,' I answered. 'Her
fleet will be at home, and will always be there.
France and England will be tired of keeping large
fleets far from all their resources in a dangerous sea.
In a year or two Russia will be as much mistress of
the Black Sea, and as dangerous to Constantinople,
as she was when we went to war in 1854.'
' I will talk the matter over again with Drouyn
de Lhuys,' he answered.
I said, from a sudden impulse which I am not
sure I was right in following:
' Would there be any objection to my being present?'
He looked a little surprised, and then said, 'Certainly not;' and he appointed an hour for the next
day.
When ] arrived, Vaillant was in the ante-chamber,
and Drouyn de Lhuys with the Emperor.
' The game is up,' I thought. ' Drouyn de Lhuys
has gained the Emperor's ear.'
We were soon introduced. The Emperor begged
Drouyn de Lhuys to explain the grounds of his
arrangement.
Drouyn de Lhuys did so at considerable length.
I think that; he talked for nearly half-an-hour. The
Emperor seemed to go along with him, and when he
had finished said to me:
'Are you not satisfied?'




240


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


'My only answer,' I said, 'is to beg your Majesty
to ask Marshal Vaillant whether he thinks that this
arrangement will really effect the purpose of the war
-the putting an end to the preponderance of Russia
in the Black Sea and the Bosphorus.'
The Emperor turned to Vaillant.
'I am not a politician,' said Vaillant, 'but I
know the feelings of the army. I am sure that if,
after having spent months in the siege of Sebastopol,
we return unsuccessful, the army will not be satisfied.'
The Emperor then turned to Drouyn de Lhuys,
and said:
'Write to Vienna to break off the negotiation.'
The next time that I saw the Emperor he showed
me a letter of Drouyn de Lhuys, written on the very
evening of the conference, tendering his resignation;
an answer by himself, begging him to reconsider his
determination; and a reply from Drouyn de Lhuys,
somewhat dry, repeating his resignation.
Senior.-Then you and Vaillant were the real
causes of the continuance of the war? 
J. K.-All turned upon Vaillant's presence.
Louis Napoleon was pleased with the peace, and
would have adhered to it if Vaillant had not frightened him.
I talked to Lord Clyde about the French army.
Lord Clyde.-The troops of the line are good,
though not peculiarly good. The Zouaves are perhaps for an attack the most formidable troops in the




1861.]


FIDELITY OF A FRENCH GENERAL.


241


world. Their capture of the Austrian battery at the
Naviglio was an astonishing feat of arms. They are
men who value life only for its excitements, care
little for the future, nothing for the past; their
courage is that of a gamecock-fierce, uncalculating,
and, in fact, instinctive, but all the more dangerous.
How they would act on the defensive I cannot
say.  French officers have confessed to me that
their men, if they had been in our places at Inkerman, could not have resisted the repeated Russian
attacks.
I have an intimate friend, General Vinois. He
was willing to expose not merely his life, but his
military position, for me. We had orders one evening
to clear away the Russians from the banks of the
Tchernaya. I set out before daybreak, the ground
being covered with deep snow. It was only by my
intimate knowledge of the ground, so that I could
tell what valley or what eminence we were on, that
I could pick my way. Several of my ammunition
waggons and some pieces were upset, and some of
my own detachments lost their way to me. All the
separate corps, English and French, who were to
have supported me, lost their way, or were recalled.
Among those recalled was that commanded by
Vinois. When he got up in the morning, he could
see us on the hills in our position; he instantly,
without waiting for orders, sounded his bugles, collected his men, and marched them without their
knapsacks to my relief. Of course, we could not
VOL. I.                             R




242


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


execute our manoeuvre, but this assistance enabled
me to retire without molestation.
On the day of the assault on Sebastopol I found
myself placed where I could obviously do nothing.
Two bodies of men were before me, and I was
ordered not to interfere with them.   I went to
Vinois, who commanded the body that was to
tack the Malakoff.
'I have nothing to do,' I said, 'but I will put
into your hands a friend whom I request you never
to part from.'
'Well,' he answered, ' I will take charge of him
if he is willing to run our risks.'
It was a new revolver. When I saw him the
next day he was almost too hoarse to speak. He
told me that they had no difficulty in getting into
the Malakhoff; it was almost empty, as the Russians
did not expect an attack, but that they had had the
utmost difficulty in maintaining themselves in it, and
could not have done so, if the Russians, fearing that
we might break through their lines and enter from
behind, had not closed it all round. They brought
up column after column to assault it on the side
next the town, while the French could receive no
reinforcements. His men, he said, re-entered three
times.
Senior.-What do you mean by re-enter?
Lord Clyde.-That they left the parapet for an
instant, and had to be rallied and brought back.




1861.]


SERMON OF THE PiRE FELIX.


243


Senior. —And did any Russians get in?
Lord Clyde.-No, but they were very near doing
so. They certainly would, but for the discovery of
ammunition left by the Russians.  The French ammunition was expended. They forced the Russian
prisoners to show them where the reserved stores
were. The bore of the Russian musket is smaller
than that of the French, so that it could be used;
had the reverse been the case, the Malakoff would
have been retaken, as the Redan was.
April 14th.-I went in the morning to hear the
Pere Felix preach at St. Clotilde. The whole nave
and aisles of the great church were full. There must
have been four or five thousand auditors. It was a
charity sermon for a society which takes care of
young workpeople when they first enter the factories.
It has at present 10,000 young persons under its
protection. The preacher told us that the 'classes
ouvrieres' were the masters of France; that the
higher classes, the middle classes, and the army only
registered their decrees.
'The fate of the country,' he said, 'is in the
hands of the working-classes, and the working-classes
are led, not by their older members, who are timid,
not by their middle-aged members, who are prudent,
but by their youngest members, who are governed,
not by their timidity, not by prudence, but by
passion, by the love of excitement, by caprice, by




244


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


envy. You have heard of the enfant terrible; the
enfant terrible is the gamin de Paris. All our revolutions have been made by children.
'Now what is the training which we give to these
children who are the masters of our destinies? Is it
moral? is it religious? What is its creed? what is
its catechism? It is this.
'What is God?
'God is nature; God is the highest power in
nature, the human mind. God is in yourselves.
' What is Satan?
'A scarecrow.
' What is duty?
' The pursuit of happiness.
'What is happiness?
' The satisfaction of our desires.
' What is heaven?
'This world, if you are happy in it.
' What is hell?
' This world, if you are miserable in it.
' What is the object of government?
' Equality.
' What is equality?
' That no man have an undue share of the means
of happiness.
'What are the means of happiness?
'Wealth.
' How is equality to be produced?
By taking from the rich and giving to the poor.
'Such, my brethren, is the catechism which the




1861.]


REVOLUTIONS MADE BY CHILDREN.


245


unprotected child learns in the atelier.  The object
of our society is to protect it from these maleficent
influences; to arm it with the knowledge, the feelings, and the habits, which may enable it to detect
the sophistry, despise the folly, and abhor the
wickedness, of its misdirected companions. If you
wish  to  save society from   a revolution  more
frightful than any that has preceded it, if you wish
to save the happiness of the higher classes and the
souls of the lower, give your time and your money
to this holy work. And with these words I put my
sermon under the protection of the Immaculate
Mother of God.'
From   St. Clotilde I went to breakfast with
Merimee. I gave him a sketch of the sermon.
Merimee.-There is much truth in Pere Felix's
remark that our revolutions are caused by children,
On the 23rd of February, 1848, I was in the Rue
Richelieu. A battalion was marching down the
street. Three boys stood across it; they cried out
that the troops should not pass without killing them.
The men hesitated, the officers were afraid of responsibility, and, in fact, the battalion halted for a
quarter of an hour, and then retired.
Senior. —Were they National Guards?
Me-rimees.-No, troops of the line. The gamins
were armed and utterly indifferent to life, whether
their own or that of others. They would have shot
three men of the first rank, and the soldiers, if they




246              CONVERSATIONS.            [1861.
had killed them, would have been execrated as the
butchers of the citizens.
We talked of the Duc d'Aumale's pamphlet.
Meerimnee. —The speech and the pamphlet are a
scolding match on each side. What royal house is
there that has not had among its members tyrants,
profligates, and fools?  The House of Hanover is
respectable, yet Thackeray's lectures do not show the
Georges to have been edifying models.
Its publication was cleverly managed. The Procutreur General of Versailles is an imbecile.  The last
two pages, which are generally left open, were closed,
he did not see them, and therefore did not see the
signature.  The title had nothing alarming, so he
passed the pamphlet as a matter of course, and 5000
copies had been sold before its nature was discovered.
Senior.-Was it wise to suppress it?
iMferimnzee.-It was not worth while as far as the
Salons of Paris are concerned, The suppression has
probably added to the number of readers, But if
cheap editions had been circulated by thousands in
the provinces and in the army, it might have done
harm.  The popularity of the Duc d'Aumale and the
unpopularity of the Prince in the army, would have
given to it a weight far exceeding the intrinsic importance of its contents. Altogether, such a publication from such a man is a grave event.
Senior.-You heard the Prince's speech; how
was it delivered?




1861.]


PRINCE NAPOLEON'S SPEECH.


247


Merimnee.-Admirably.   Though he had prepared
the substance, he had left the words to the inspiration
of the moment. Though often vehement, sometimes
excited, he never lost his thread. There was scarcely
ever, I suppose, a more remarkable first speech.  The
stenographer left out one or two phrases. The Prince
said, ' Que des Legitimistes ou des Republicains fassent
une descente sur nos cotes, nous les fusillerons bel et bien
comme des chiens;' the words 'comme des chiens'
were omitted in the report. What adds to its merits
as a work of art is the nature of the audience.
There never was one to which it is more difficult
to speak with energy.  I have heard peers complain
that the atmosphere of your House of Lords is benumbing; it is warm   and exciting compared with
that of our Senate.  The senators are few, they are
stupid, they are ignorant, they are inattentive, they
are unsympathising  it is a moral ice-house. When
a man attempts to be vehement there, he puts me in
mind of an old H.B., in which Lord Brougham
stands gesticulating in a fog to a sleeping house.
Senior.-Considering the anti-papal tendency of
the speech, was the Government wise in adopting it?
Merimee.-Quite wise; there is no Papal feeling
among the people. Louis Napoleon's hostility to the
Pope had added greatly to his popularity in all
quarters, except among the Bourbonist parts; and
the Papalism and Ultramontanism of even the Orleanists is, like their affection for the Italian pretenders and their hatred of Italian unity, ratler a




248


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


means of opposition than a real feeling. At least, I
hope so, for I should be grieved to think that a large
portion of educated Frenchmen are really the friends
of superstition and of misgovernment. Their best
friends must hope that they are insincere; and as
insincerity is one of the worst reproaches that can
be made to a party, the Emperor must be glad to see
his enemies avow opinions so opposed to liberty, to
progress, to good sense, and to good feeling that
those who utter them can be excused only by supposing that they do not believe what they profess.
Prince Napoleon sent, a few days ago, to ask
me to visit him to-day. I found several people
in the ante-chamber. We were called in one by
one, but no one's audience lasted more than three
minutes, except mine, which was prolonged to
five. He seemed anxious and absent-to use a
French phrase, 'preoccupe.'
He told me that he had heard from an authority
that could scarcely be mistaken that Lord Derby and
Lord Palmerston had coalesced-that Derby was to
be Premier and Palmerston Foreign Secretary, and
that Gladstone had joined the Radicals.
'It is a most dangerous combination,' he added,
'and disturbs me, who, as you know, am a steady
friend to the English alliance. With such a ministry,
and this painful Syrian question, tout est possible.'
' Tout est possible,' I answered, 'except the story
itself.'




1861.]


STATE OF THE PRIESTHOOD.


249


But I did not convince him. So he told me that
'Sa Femme' hoped that I would dine with them
that day, and bowed me out.
At dinner I found Lord Henry Lennox and
several other persons, none of whom, except Michel
Chevalier, I knew.
The dinner was stiff and silent. Between me
and the Prince sat Mme. de -. He talked to her
much in a half-whisper. I found afterwards that it
was about the letter.
'I am sorry,' he said, 'that the Emperor has suppressed it, as now I cannot answer it.'
Immediately after dinner we went into the
smoking-room, where the Prince took his usual armchair by the fire. He was bitter and cynical. We
talked of the Pope.
Prince Napoleon.-What I wish is to get rid of
him altogether; and if all the bishops and priests
follow him, so much the better.
Senior. —Yet your imperial highness has lately
been recommending a bishop, Monseigneur 
Prince Napoleon.-I told the Emperor that 
was not quite so bad as the rest; so he was made
bishop. But there is little to choose among them.
I have seen priests of every kind. They are bad in
Germany, they are bad in Italy, but they are nowhere so thoroughly bad as in France. Perhaps,
however, I ought to except Ireland. When I was
in Ireland last year, the priests crowded round me.




250


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


But they had no knowledge or common sense. I
found them highly disaffected; but when I asked for
their grievances, they could not explain to me that
they had any. On their own showing, Ireland is as
free, as well administered, as lightly taxed, and as
impartially governed, as any country in Europe.
Senior.-They had one grievance, though they
did not choose to complain of it —that they have no
public provision.
Prince Napoleon.-I scarcely call that a grievance.
No priests ought to be paid by the Government.
The real grievance is, that the large majority, and
the poor majority, of the Irish have to pay the priests
of the rich minority. It is bad enough to have to
pay a priest whom you believe.
He talked much of English politics: said that
Palmerston was a Tory, Gladstone a Radical, and
-  a fool, and would not allow that any one had
any political honesty except Lord Grey.
The smoking party broke up very soon, and the
Prince merely walked through the drawing-rooms,
and disappeared.
The Princess looked smiling and happy. Probably she was the only person present who had not
heard of the Duc d'Aumale's letter.
April 15th.-General Changarnier, Lord Clyde,
M. de Bourke, Duvergier, the Duc de Broglie,
Mr. Grey, Secretary of Legation, and Lanjuinais,




1861.] THE EMPEROR POPULAR WITH THE ARMY. 251


and one or two others, breakfasted with us. The
meeting between Lord Clyde and Changarnier was
very cordial.
We talked, as every    one does, of the Duc
d'Aumale's letter.
Lord Clyde.-When I was returning from India
the Emperor wished to see me. His manner is very
good, but perhaps not quite frank. His voice is low
and pleasing, but somewhat artificial. We got on a
subject on which a military man can seldom keep his
temper. I called baggage le diable. He said that in
Italy, marching on the chaussees raised high over
the flooded rice-fields, his advance had sometimes
been separated from his rear by baggage-waggons,
which it was impossible to pass, or to get rid of
in any way, unless they had been thrown off the
chaussee into the water. He got almost excited by
the recollection, and certainly his voice differed
much from the subdued, equable tone with which
he began.
Lord Clyde outstayed the rest of the party.
Lord Clyde.-My military friends tell me that the
Emperor is popular in the army. He has done
much for them, and only the higher officers know
that he made great blunders, and exposed the army
to great risks.
Senior. —I am told that he never was really under
fire.




252


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Lord Clyde.-That is not true. At Magenta he
was under fire for some time. Viennois tells me that
when, for want of the Piedmontese, on whom he
reckoned, he was outnumbered, he was more calm
than those around him.  'At the worst,' he said,
nous mourrons en soldat.'  The danger, perhaps,
was still greater at Solferino. My friends say that
towards the end of the day the vastly superior
Austrian cavalry, if they had charged, would probably have decided it against the French; but they
were ill commanded, and did nothing. Their African
experience gave the French an enormous advantage.
They never lost their presence of mind.
April 16th.-I dined with M. de Parieu, VicePresident of the Conseil d'etat. Among the company were Michel Chevalier and the Marquis de la
Grange, senators.
The titles granted by Napoleon were not hereditary, unless connected with a majorat (an entailed
estate). They have long been claimed by descendants
without a majorat, and it is proposed to legalise the
claim.
Chevalier.-The matter was sharply debated till
four o'clock, the time at which the whist party meet
at the Cercle. So many of the Senators belong to it
that the Chamber was rapidly emptying, and the
Senate, therefore to accommodate the whist-players,
got rid of the question by referring it to the Minister
of Justice.




1861.]   IDLENESS OF FRENCH NOBILITY.


253


Parieu alluded to a remarkable difference between
English and French aristocracies.
Parieu.-The highest classes in England are all
politicians.  They are among the best speakers in
both Houses, they are the leading men in the provinces, they are hard-working    cabinet ministers.
Ours are men of pleasure, or of society, or of
literature, but scarcely ever statesmen. And yet
our politics are quite as exciting as yours.
Chevalier.-Our aristocracy is governed by traditions, and idleness is one of them. Under the ancien
regime a man who belonged to the higher noblesse,
to the noblesse de l'epee, could only be a soldier
or a diplomatist, or, if his family could command
for him a high ecclesiastical dignity, a churchman.
Those who belonged to the noblesse de la robe could
be judges. All other careers implied loss of caste.
And this prejudice continues.   The education of
our young men, too, by private tutors, or in colleges
under ecclesiastical superintendence, makes them
averse to the struggles and roughness of political
life. Then the smallness of our families, for in the
higher classes there are not two children to a marriage, and the law of equal partition, secures to every
one enough to live on, and prevents any one from
having the fortune and position which give to your
elder sons the means of entering Parliament, and
almost impose on them the obligation of doing so.
If we had retained the constitution of the Restoration, with its hereditary peerage and its narrowly




254


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


restricted suffrage, a race of men horn and trained to
politics might have grown up.   The Legitimists,
forming perhaps a majority of our aristocracy, abandoned public life in 1830; the Orleanists did so in
1848; the Republicans did so in 1852. I think that
they were all wrong. I think that they ought not
to have abandoned the destinies of the country to
lawyers, soldiers, bankers, or aventuriers, unfitted by
knowledge or by habits to direct them. They ought
not to have left the Emperor so unprovided with
men of political ability and political experience that
his ministers are unable to defend, or even to explain,
their own measures.
But though I see the end, I do not see the cure,
unless we revert to the government by parliamentary
majorities virtually nominating the ministers, and
reducing the chef de e'tat to a puppet. Such a form
of government may be a better one than our democratic absolutism; but it is abhorred by the people,
would not be submitted to by the sovereign, and
is not desired even by the bourgeoisie, whom it
would make our masters.
A gentleman sat next to me high in the French
Foreign Office. He told me that he was engaged in
preparing, in concert with M. Waddington, the Home
Office Under-Secretary, a treaty of extradition.
'Under the present treaty,' he said, 'there is no
extradition on your side. Your judges do not
understand, or at least do not act on, its first prin



1861.]


TREATY OF EXTRADITION.


255


ciple. That principle is, that extradition is to take
place if there be ground sufficient to put the accused
on his trial. Your judges virtually insist on trying
him themselves. As they have not the witnesses, as
they know nothing of our law, and not much of our
language, the sort of trial which takes place in England costs an enormous sum, and always ends in
a declaration by your judges that the case is not
within the treaty. The consequence is that we have
ceased to attempt to enforce the performance of the
treaty by you. We are satisfied with ridding ourselves of your malefactors, which we do without
putting you to any expense, and we allow you to
keep ours. A fraudulent bankrupt, or a clerk who
has robbed his employers of a million, or a husband
who has poisoned his wife, if he can once reach
England, may enjoy his spoil or his freedom    in
safety.
'By the treaty which M. Waddington and I
prepared, any Frenchman was subject to extradition,
if we proved that there was sufficient ground, according to French law, to put him on his trial. You
were not to try him; you were not to say, " According to our rules the evidence is insufficient."  That
was to be our affair, not yours. You were not to
say, " Your laws are irrational: we will not surrender a man to a court in which he may be required
to criminate himself, or be convicted on the mere
ground of the public notoriety of his guilt."
' But the bill necessary to carry the treaty into




256


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


effect was brought in by Lord Malmesbury, who did
not understand it, was opposed by Lord Monteagle,
who, if he understood it, misrepresented it, and was
lost because your House of Lords could not, as our
Corps Legislatif can do, call on M. Waddington, as
Commissaire du Gouvernement, to explain it.'
April 17thz.-Remusat* returned to Paris from
* Le Comte Charles de R6musat, born in 1797, was a writer
and politician. He studied law in Paris, and was called to the
bar. In 1820 he published De la Procedure par Jures en matiere
criminelle, a short work of great merit, which was translated into
Spanish. In 1830, under the new regime, he took an active part
in politics, but though of liberal principles he endeavoured to
restrain the abuse of liberty. In 1836, he was made underSecretary of State for home affairs. In the following year he
joined the Opposition, and was amongst the supporters of
M. Thiers, under whom he served as head of the home department. Again, in opposition when Thiers left office, M. Remusat
during the seven succeeding years distinguished himself by
speeches which were remarkable for their lucidity and caustic wit.
During the Guizot ministry, he gave himself up to literary and
philosophical labours, till in the last days of the Monarchy, he
was, with M. Thiers, again called to the Ministry. After the
Revolution of February 1848, he represented the Haute-Garonne
in the Constituent Assembly, always voting with the droit. The
coup d'etat induced him to renounce politics and devote himself
solely to literature. Amongst his chief works on political economy
is one called Du Pauperisme et de la Charite legale. He wrote
many critical and philosophical works, contributed largely to
reviews, and translated five of Schiller's plays.
In 1869, during the Ollivier Ministry, he again became a
politician, and founded a Liberal newspaper at Toulouse. In




1861.]


MINISTERS OF THE POPE.


257


Italy yesterday. He called on me this morning.
I asked him  about the state of Rome.
Remusat.-When I left Rome, three months ago,
it was tranquil.  The people, though disliking the
Papal government, will not attempt to overthrow it,
but they will not defend it.  The Pope, a man of
literature and society, hates business, and consequently does not understand it. He sees little of
Corcelle, or Antonelli, or Merode, and if politics are
talked of turns aside the conversation. His policy is
to temporise, and to trust to Providence.  Antonelli
is shrewd, and has some Italian feelings, but little
knowledge. Merode and Talbot, the other advisers
of the Pope, are foreigners. They have no sympathy
with the Italians, and think solely of the Pope, to
whose temporal interests and spiritual power they
would readily sacrifice the liberty and nationality of
Italy, or indeed of Europe.
Merode is an agreeable companion, gay, lively,
and pococurante; thinks that the Madonna can and
will protect the Pope, without the aid of the French;
and is always at war with Goyon. As Minister of
War he has the means of teasing us, and tries to
make Rome so disagreeable that we shall take a huff,
and quit it. And I am inclined to think that if the
Corps Legislatif had not checked the Emperor, we
1871 M. Thiers offered to him the post of Ambassador at Vienna,
which M. de R6musat refused. He was then appointed Minister
for Foreign Affairs. He died in 1875.-ED.
VOL. I.                               S




258


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


should have done so already. When I last saw
Goyon, he said that he did not think that the French
could remain if the Pope left Rome. There would,
in fact, be no pretence for it. It would excite the
jealousy of Europe and the indignation of the
Italians.
When I last saw Antonelli he said that the Pope
could not remain in Rome unprotected by the French
garrison. If the French went, the Pope must go.
But while each is waiting on the other, they may
remain there for an indefinite time.
Senior.-What is the state of feeling in the Roman
provinces?
Remusat.-Excited. They are delighted by their
escape from ecclesiastical rule.
Senior.-But do not the increased taxation and
the conscription disgust them?
Remusat.-No. The taxation may be heavier,
but it is less vexatiously exacted; and they submit,
as far as I could perceive, to the conscription as
a means of Italian unity. It is not half so severe
as that of France. I did not see much of Naples;
but though unquiet, it is far less disturbed than
Paris was during the earlier part of Louis Philippe's
reign.  The great danger to Italy is Garibaldi. On
the other hand, the great safety to Italy is the retention of Venetia by Austria. While that continues, a
common danger and a common enemy will keep
together the Italians. If they get Venetia, they will
split up.




1861.] SEPARATION OF THE UNITED STATES.


259


Senior.-How did you find the French clergy?
Remusat.-As respects the inferior clergy, not so
opposed to the Emperor as is generally supposed.
Ultramontanism is a mere feeling. It is the adoration of a principle. But fear of the Rouges, gratitude
for past benefits, and the hope of future ones, are
practical. Ultramontanism enables the bishops to
gratify their vanity by issuing mandements, by disregarding the censures of government, and enjoying
the gratitude and praise of the Pope. But the cures,
who cannot play a part on the European stage, whose
hopes and fears are inspired by the prefet or the
maire, are getting tired of making a barren sentimental opposition to the dispensers of money and
patronage.
Senior. —Do you believe in war?
Remusat.-Not from hence. I do not think that
the Emperor has any plans. He is allowing the
country to drift. He is now in one of his torpid
fits.
The liberal party are not without fears that when
the separation of the Northern and Southern States
in America has been completed your commercial
interests may lead you to abandon the glorious war
which you have waged for more than half a century
against slavery, and to unite yourselves closely with
the Southerns.
Senior.-[ have no doubt that we shall discountenance, perhaps forbid, the renewal of the
African slave- trade; and what more can we do?




260


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Can we advise them to emancipate, and cast on their
own resources four millions of slaves?
Remusat.-No; but you may advise them to facilitate, instead of prohibiting, partial emancipation.
You may advise them to repeal the wicked laws
which forbid the education of slaves and the preparing them for emancipation.
Senior.-And they may advise us to make a provision for the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, and
to redress the wicked law which, by making the
priest dependent on his flock, forces him to confirm
their prejudices and aggravate their evil passions.
I suspect that they would receive our advice with
about the same kindness with which we should accept
theirs. The only free trade that does more harm
than good is free trade in advice.
Thursday, April 18th.-I spent the evening at
A. B. C.'s, and met M. Cintrat, Directeur des Archives
at the Foreign Office.
I talked to Cintrat of Madame Cornu, with
whom he was once intimate, though they have
quarrelled.
Cintrat.-The information which I obtained from
her as to the early years of Louis Napoleon was very
useful to me. I believe his character to be unchanged.
She taught me how to manage it.
Senior.-And what is your estimate of it?
Cintrat. -Romanesque, impulsive, bizarre, idle,
inconsistent, good-natured, selfish, vain, fearing and




1861.]


SELFISHNESS OF LOUIS NAPOLEON.


261


hating all superiors. She told me that he always
liked best the worst children.
A. B. C.-The fonds of his character is selfishness.
If he wanted to boil an egg, and the only fuel at hand
were bank-notes belonging to you, he would light the
fire with them. If there were none of yours, he would
light it with his own. The form which his selfishness
takes is vanity, and his vanity is vulgarly commonplace. It is love, not of esteem, but of notoriety; not
of the approbation of the wise, or of the sympathy of
the good, but of the astonishment of the mob. As a
child, he liked bad children; as a man, he likes bad
men.
Senior. —Could he abandon the warlike policy of
the last seven years?
A. B. C.-I have no doubt that he could. The
only warlike party in France is the Revolutionary
party, and it is found almost exclusively in the large
towns; the peasantry and the bourgeoisie are pacific.
The army is conservative. Of course it likes war —
all armies do-but it hates revolution. If Celui-ci's
Government were wise and moderate at home and
abroad, he might retain his power for life, and perhaps
transmit it.
But he will not be long wise or moderate. It is
not his nature. He likes noise. He had rather beat
a drum than fiddle as well as Paganini; and rather
fire a cannon than do either. At present he is engourdi
and pacific,, but he will not remain so.
Success has reanimated his early Carbonaro feel



262


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


ings. His first war was conservative. So was the
peace of Paris,-so was the peace of Villa Franca;
but from that time he has been drifting more and more
in a revolutionary course.
I do not think, however, that he will commence
another war, but he will foment one, and when the
fight has begun, he will take part in it.
Senior.-Will he break utterly with the Pope?
A. B. C.-I think that he will. He will make
himself Pope of the Gallican Church and make the
clergy tools of the Government.
We talked of the Duc d'Aumale's letter.
Senior.-In England a peer would refuse to fight
in defence of words spoken in the House of Lords,to do so would be to surrender the privileges of the
House.
A. B. C.-We do not take the Senate au serieux.
Even a member of the Chamber of Deputies, important as that assembly was, could not have ventured
to maintain its privileges at the expense of what
would have been called his own honour.
I fear that these letters will be mischievous, not
only to the Empire, but to the Monarchy. The
people will say, as Henri IV. did after he had sat in
a court of law and heard the counsel on each side
plead, 'Ventre St. Gris, ils ont raison tous les
deux.'
Senior.-Has the Emperor gained or lost by the
discussion of the address?
Cintrat.-Lost. He has been forced against his




1861.]


MASSACRES IN 1851.


263


wish to change his policy and keep the troops in
Rome.
April 19th..-Mr. Kinglake has to allude in the
introduction to his work on the Crimean war to the
coup d'e'tat, and has written to ask me to get information as to the executions in cold blood, said to have
taken place after the 3rd and 4th of December, 1851.
Most of the persons whom I have consulted say that
they firmly believe that such was the case; but that
as no one at that time ventured to speak or to write,
they have no evidence.
I called this morning on Jules Simon, and put the
question to him.
Simon.-I have some evidence, —not that I saw
any massacres of prisoners,-I saw men and women
killed in ithe streets on the 3rd of December. The
troops, as they were passing along the principal
thoroughfares, stopped opposite to the cross streets,
ordered the people to disperse, and immediately fired.
A woman was killed close to me, in a little street
crossing the Rue Montmartre. There is no doubt
that they were ordered to kill indiscriminately armed
men, spectators, and even passengers. But the cold
blood massacres took place at night.  After the
terror of the first few days had subsided, people began
to look for their friends. Many had disappeared.
A young man named Lacour was missing. His
friends applied to me. I found that Madame Carnot




264


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


was intimate with one of the juges substituts, who
might know whether he was in prison or not, and
she begged him to meet me at her house. I was
excited, and spoke of the events of the 3rd with indignation.
'I have a right,' he said, 'to be far more indignant
than you are. You have seen only slaughter in hot
blood. I have seen men taken by violence, not from
behind a barricade, or in a street, but out of the protection of justice. As juge substitut, I was ordered
on the 5th and 6th of December, to go to the prisons
to examine those accused of having taken part in the
insurrection, and either discharge them or remand
them for trial.
'While I was engaged in performing this duty,
officers and sous-officers, even sergeants and corporals,
entered the prisons, seized the prisoners whom I was
examining, or had examined, and looked at their
hands. If they were blackened by powder, the men
were carried off.'
' Menes o? ' I asked.
'Not to prison, for they were in prison already.'
' Mais ou? ' I repeated.
' O?' he replied, 'to be entasses et parques till
night in a guard-room, and at night shot in the
Champs de Mars or the Place des Invalides.'
I called afterwards on the Peyronnets, and asked
the same question.
Peyronnet.-No one knows, or ever will know all




1861.]


MASSACRE IN THE LUXEMBOURG.


265


that passed during that week. Many people were
hiding. The newspapers were silenced. Few dared
to talk.  I have always believed that massacres
took place in cold blood, but I have no direct
evidence. We lived at that time in the Champs
Elysees.
We heard, during the nights of the 4th and 5th of
December, and never before or after, firing from the
other side of the water, which we supposed at the
time, and still suppose, to have been fusillades of
prisoners in the Champ de Mars, or near the Invalides, but I cannot prove it.
I called in the afternoon on M. Bloemarts, the
watchmaker, whose lawsuit with the Marquis de
I have mentioned. I asked him what he
knew of the massacres of 1851.
Bloemarts.-Nothing from my own senses. But
some friends of mine who live in the Rue de Fleurus,
which looks over the Garden of the Luxembourg, told
me that during the night of the 5th of December, they
heard many discharges of musketry, which sounded
like platoon firing, it was the only time that they ever
heard such firing. They might have supposed that
the men were firing off their muskets for the night,
but after each discharge they heard cries and sobs, and
men imploring mercy.    One voice cried out, ' Ma
mere! Ma mere!' till it was stifled in a scream.
They have no doubt that these were massacres of
prisoners.




266


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


I asked him to tell me the story of his lawsuit
with the Marquis de ----.
Bloemarts.-I believe that the Marquise de 
is recklessly extravagant, and that the Marquis finds
it difficult to keep her within bounds. He is avaricious and litigious, but vain,-likes the expense of
his wife, but hates paying for it. When we met before the juge de paix, he said, 'M. Bloemarts shall
not lose a farthing. I will pay the bill and the costs
-mais ii me faut un proces. I must make it notorious that I do not pay the Marquise's debts.'
I expected, therefore, an amicable suit. But in
his defence he attacked me and my character with
violence, and accused me of being the accomplice of
his wife in the endeavour to ruin him.
I obtained a verdict for the price of the window
curtains; it was held that they were for the benefit
of la communaute (the husband and wife considered
as one person), but I failed for the rest. The Marquis
had for him, not only his favour with the Emperor,
but also with the Procureur Imperial.
As for his wanting 'un proces,' I found that mine
was his eleventh!
Senior.-You are prosecuting him, also, penally,
for fraud?
Bloemarts.-I have two such prosecutions. Last
year he brought an Englishwoman from Boulogne,
lodged her in a fine h6tel in the Rue de Lille, carried
her about in his carriage to order furniture, went with
her to shops, where she ordered silks and jewellery,




1861.]


JUSTICE IN FRANCE.


267


and brought her to my wife to order linen. This was
the first beginning of our acquaintance.  It' was followed immediately after by the order given by the
Marquise. One day the English lady disappeared,
taking away (as it is said in the fourgons of the
Marquis) all that was portable, and leaving her bills
unpaid.
I prosecuted the Marquis as her accomplice; but
instituted the proceedings, not only in my name, but
in that of the Procureur Impe'rial.
This is a precaution frequently taken, as in that
case the costs falls on the Government.
Six months passed without the prosecution appearing to advance.   I went to the Parquet from
time to time, and saw the juge d'instruction, who
always said he was inquiring into the matter. At
last I lost patience, and told him that I would proceed in my own name alone.   'That,' he said, 'you
cannot do.   The Procureur Imperial s'est saisi de
l'affaire, and you cannot proceed without him; and
I will tell you in confidence that he is of opinion
that you have no case against the Marquis, and that
you had better quietly withdraw your complaint.'
'Well,' I said, 'if I am to submit quietly to be
robbed in this affair, I will not in another. The
Marquis and his wife have robbed me of 3000 francs.
Je les assignerai moi-meme a la Police Correctionnelle.'
'Vous voulez done,' he said, 'faire un scandale.
vous vous en repentirez.  C'est alors que j'ai dit que
je verrais ce que c'est que la Justice en France,' and




268


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


that he threatened to punish me, 'pour avoir injurie
la justice.'
This is the prosecution which is still pending.
This is the prosecution in which I found difficulty in
obtaining an advocate. At length I have obtained
Emmanuel Arago. But with the Marquis for my
opponent, the Procureur Imperial for my enemy, and
my well-known republican opinions, I do not expect
success.
Senior.-How stands the Emperor at present?
Bloemarts.-Well with the peuple, in consequence
of his quarrel with the priests. With the bourgeoisie
he has been losing ground for the last four years,
principally from the denial of justice, as to which my
case is only one of thousands. No redress can be
obtained against any one in power, or connected, or
supposed to be connected, with any one in power.
A watchmaker, a friend of mine, had to repair a
watch belonging to the bonne of a commissaire de
police. She called 'for it, but he refused to let it go
until he was paid. Soon afterwards the commissaire
de police came to his shop, said that he had heard that
his register was not properly kept and required to see
it. It was placed before him, and he looked at the
names and numbers till he came to the name and
number of the watch of his bonne. He asked for the
watch and tried to put it into his pocket. The watchmaker resisted.
'Do you venture to resist the commissaire-to
resist an officer of police?  There are many irregu



1861.]


THE WATCHMAKER S STORY.


269


larities in your register. I shall take it away with
the watch as pieces justificatives.'
The only redress against an officer of justice is to
complain to his superiors. The watchmaker went to
the Procureur Imperial.  He referred him to the Procureur General, the Procureur General answered:
'Address to me a complaint on stamped paper,
and if you have been wronged, I will do you justice.'
My friend departed, convinced that the commissaire would be dismissed. But months have passed,
and the only answer that he can get is, that the Procureur General has not had time to look into the
matter.
And this is the only answer that he ever will get,
unless it be that if he gives any more trouble he will
be prosecuted for having kept an irregular register.
The result is that he has given up business.
Senior-But this has always been the case. No
Frenchman has ever been allowed to proceed against
an officer of the Government, without the permission
of the superiors of that officer.
Bloemarts.-Unhappily this has always been the
law. But if such things as my friend's, or as my case,
could have occurred under any other regime, we
should have published it in the newspapers. If the
newspapers had refused to insert it, we should have
had it denounced from the Tribune of the Chamber.
And the fear of exposure prevented such an occurrence. Now, if we complain that we are plundered,
we are insulted, perhaps ruined.




270


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Sunday, April 21st.-Guizot breakfasted with us.
We talked of the Syrian business.
Guizot.-I find with regret that our transports
are really leaving Toulon, to bring back our troops.
You will soon hear that the massacres have reconmenced. The Druses, protected by the Turks, are
resolved to extirpate the Maronites. Our troops will
have to return to Syria, and the only result of their
temporary withdrawal will be six months or a year of
bloodshed and devastation.
You were wrong in requiring us to withdraw;
we were wrong in consenting to do so. We were
wrong indeed in consenting to occupy Syria for so
short a time and with so small a force; we ought to
have landed 24,000 men, to have stationed 8000 at
Beyrout, 8000 in Damascus, and to have kept a
movable column of 8000 between the two cities.
We ought to have proclaimed our determination to
have stayed there five years, ten years, even twenty
years, if the safety of the Christians required it.
Senior.-Such an occupation would have cost you
about a couple of millions sterling, and some thousands of lives, a-year; would France have been
willing to make such sacrifices?
Guizot.-Certainly; there is no folly for which
France is not ready, provided it be a military folly.
Think of the Chinese expedition; what interest had
we in China? We get all our tea through you; but
it was a war, therefore it was popular.
You would probably have objected, for you object




1861.]


SYRIAN QUESTION IN 1840.


271


to everything. You think that wherever we send an
expedition we mean to make a conquest, and that
every conquest increases our strength. I believe that
when we sent our expedition to Syria we no more
intended a conquest than we did when we went to
China. And I further believe that the conquest of
Syria will enfeeble us, just as that of Algiers has
done.
Were I an English statesman, intent as most of
your statesmen are on weakening France, I should
be delighted to see her distant conquests increase.
If our aramy were as dispersed as yours is, if our
vulnerable points were as numerous as yours are, we
should be as timid and as peaceful as you are.
Palmerston and Thiers made each of them a great
mistake in 1840. Your mistake, mischievous to
yourselves and fatal to Syria, was the taking Syria
from Mehemet Ali; our mistake was the not accepting your offer to let Mehemet Ali be the independent
ruler of Egypt. We asked for all or nothing, that
he should be the Sovereign of Egypt or only an
hereditary pacha.
Senior.-Your great mistake was the stopping
Ibrahim Pacha, after he had gained the victory of
Nezib. If you had allowed him, he would have
gone to Constantinople, and reformed and reanimated
Turkey.
Guizot.-But at whose instigation did we stop
him? At yours. You wanted to keep alive, or at
least standing, the Ottoman cadavre; you wanted a




272


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


desert between the Turks and the Egyptians. You
have had your wish, and see the result.
I do not wonder, however, at Palmerston's conduct. The support of the integrity of Turkey is a
traditional English folly. Nearly a hundred years
ago Lord Chatham said, that if any Englishman
thought Turkey might, without great danger to
England, be allowed to fall in pieces, his friends
ought to remove him to Bedlam.
Senior.-What think you of giving Syria to
Abd-el-Kader?
Guizot.-I should be delighted to do so. He is
a soldier and an administrator; he could hold the
country, and could pacify it.
April 22nd.-I took a long walk with L. M. He
is an Alsatian.
Senior.-Do your German or your French sympathies predominate?
L. M.-My French sympathies; but I take great
interest in Germany. Thoughout Alsace and Lorraine
German feelings and German interests are strong.
If they had been separated from France in 1815 they
would have acquiesced without much repugnance.
What made them French was not identity of language or of race, or even any similarity of character,
but simply the abolition by the Constituent Assembly
of the feudal rights of the nobles, and the distribution
of their property among the people. While there
was any fear of those rights being re-established, or




1861.]


PRUSSIA WILL ABSORB GERMANY.


273


of that property being resumed, they were enthusiastically French. They are now almost indifferent to
France.
Senior. —E., who is from Lorraine, tells me that
his sympathies are all with Lorraine, that he does
not feel himself a Frenchman.
L. M. —Well, I do feel myself a Frenchman, but
also a German.
Senior. —If your countrymen were separated from
France, would they wish for independence?
L. I. —No; they would join Prussia.
Senior. —But the Prussian government appears to.
be very bad. They seem    to be ruled by what is
much worse than a despotic king-a despotic police.
L. J. —That is true, but Germans are fit for
nothing better; they desire nothing better. They
are like the French; their eyes are fixed on foreign
politics, not on domestic ones. They want to be a
great, or, indeed, the great nation of the Continent.
For that purpose they all gravitate towards Prussia
as the greatest German power. Holstein has determined to join Prussia, so has Schleswig, though the
Danish government and the Danish constitution are
far superior to those of Prussia. Prussia is destined
to absorb all the other Protestant states. Baden
would have joined her six months ago, if France had
not declared that she would oppose the union, even
by a war.
Senior. —Do you propose to add to your kingdom
of Germany the Austrian Germans?
VOL. I.                             T




274


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


L. M.-No, nor Bavaria-they are Catholics. If,
however, as seems to be probable, Papacy dies out,
and the Catholic Church separates itself, as the Greek
Church has done, into many different ecclesiastical
bodies, each governed by its own Synod, or Patriarch,
or Assembly, it is possible that Protestantism  and
Catholicism may cease to be important distinctions.
And the whole German race, whatever be its form
of Christianity, may unite to form one empire.
It will be a great blessing to Europe, for it will
be unaggressive; it will keep you, and France, and
Russia in order, and being no longer intent on foreign
affairs, will try to obtain, what no German has ever
enjoyed, liberty at home.   The great tyrant, the
police, and the smaller tyrants, the kings, and grand
dukes, and nobles, and guilds, and corporations, will
have to untwist the innumerable Lilliputian strings
by which the German giant is pinned to the earth.
Senior.-If Papacy is to be thrown off, where will
the revolt begin?
L. M/.-In France.
Senior.-My French friends tell me that in that
event you will become not Protestants, but infidels.
L. M. —I do not think so.   The working-classes
in the towns are infidels, but the higher and middle
classes respect Christianity as an institution certainly
most useful, possibly divine; and the peasantry are
undoubting believers. We shall make a Christianity
and a Church of our own, perhaps with Catholic
forms and ceremonies, with Protestant morality, and




1861.]


DEBATE IN THE CHAMBER.


275


with dogmata about which no one will trouble himself.
April 23rd.-Lord     Clyde, Merimee, the two
Chevaliers,   Kergorlay, Parieu, and    Drouyn    de
Lhuys, breakfasted with us.     We talked    of the
debate.
A. Chevalier.-The two good speeches were Keller's
and Prince Napoleon's.   The Prince's was the best
delivered.  Keller's was rather recited than spoken.
His voice was monotonous, and so was his action,
merely raising and sinking his right arm. Neither
had a favourable audience. The Corps Legislatif,
though it hates the Piedmontese, does not love the
Pope.   And   the Senate sympathises little in the
Prince's Italianism. While he was speaking in one
of the bureaux, MacMahon      said something in an
under voice, the Prince cried out, 'Everybody ought
to speak openly; I wish the Duke of Magenta to
repeat what he has just said.'
'It was a mere trivial remark,' said MacMahon.
'Then,' said the Prince, 'there can be no harm
in repeating it.  I insist on hearing it.'
' If your Imperial Highness insists,' said MacMahon; 'it was this: Je me moque de lui et de son
Italie.'
* Auguste Chevalier was Louis Napoleon's private secretary
up to the coup d'etat: he died several years ago.  Michel
Chevalier is too well known to require a note.-ED.




276


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


A prize of 10,000 francs, provided by the Emperor,
is to be given by the Institute every other year, for a
literary work or a scientific discovery. It is proposed
to give it this year to Madame Dudevant (Georges
Sand).
M. Chevalier.-I shall vote for the proposition.
imerimee.-And so shall 1. It is certain that if
Madame Dudevant were really Georges Sands, she
would be a member of the Academie Franqaise.
We talked of the probabilities of war.
A. Chevalier.-I believe that both the Emperor
and the country are pacific. The revolutionary party
in the towns wishes for war, because it likes noise,
and bustle, and excitement, and glory. But it is
vain rather than ambitious, and it dislikes the
burthens that war brings; the peasantry hate the
conscription, and care little for glory; the higher
classes in both town and country desire nothing but
quiet and safety; the Emperor has gained his laurels,
and does not wish either to endanger them, or to let
any one else wear rival ones.
Kergorlay.-The great danger is from Garibaldi.
The Austrians know well how unpopular Cavour and
Italian unity are in France. They are burning to
revenge themselves on the Piedmontese, and they
think that if Garibaldi's insolence and violence give
them a fair excuse for attacking him, or, after having
repelled his attack for pursuing him, we shall allow
them to do so. My fear is, that they may presume




1861.]


OPINION OF ROTHSCHILD.


277


too much on our anti-Italian feelings, and carry
reaction so far as to force us to interfere.
A. Chevalier.-At all events, whatever be the
pacific appearances, I recommend you to keep up
your armaments. England disarmed, in the state in
which she was ten years ago, is not merely useless
for the purpose of keeping the peace, but as a great
defenceless prize, is an excitement to war. England
armed, able and willing to interfere in favour of those
who are attacked, might render European war impossible, and ought to do so.
Senior. —We are told that blessed are the peacemakers; but it seems that peace-making is an
expensive, and not always a safe employment.
Parieu.-The greatest peace-makers are the Bourse
and the Stock Exchange.
Senior. —Does any one know how Rothschild is
operating?
Drouyr de Lhuys.-I do not think that much can
be inferred from his operations. He never looks
beyond a month.
M. Chevalier.-Parieu and I were present some
time ago at a council held in the Tuileries to consider a proposal made by the Minister of Finance,
that the bank should pay to the Government one
hundred millions, and receive an extension of its
charter for thirty years. We had all spoken except
Rothschild. The Emperor turned to him, 'Your
opinion, M. le Baron,' he said, 'will be peculiarly
valuable.'




278


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


' Sa Majeste, answered Rothschild, 'veut-elle queje
m' exprime franchement?'
'Of course,' said the Emperor.
' Eh bien done,' said Rothschild, 'puisque votre
Mfajeste veut que je m'exprime franchement jai l'honneur
de dire que je trouve le projet excellent.'
'Mais,' said the Emperor, 'c'est une opinion tres
importante, mais peu motivee.'
' Sa Majeste,' replied Rothschild, 'veut-elle que je
m'exprime franchement?'
' Mais sans doute.'
' Eh bien doncpuisque votre Majeste veut queje m'exprime franchement, je dis done, que je trouve le projet
excellent.  Seulement, je crois que c'est mauvais pour la
Banque, que c'est mauvais pour le tresor, et que c'est
mauvais pour le commerce.'
As he said this he looked round, and seeing the
author of the project making a face, he added, 'Excellence, j'espere que je n'ai dit rien d'inconvenant.'
A. Chevalier.-You may have observed that Rothschild never says, 'Pardon,' nor 'mille pardons.'   He
always says, 'Millions de pardons.'
We talked of the Duc d'Aumale's letter.
A. Chevalier.-It has killed    the fusion, if the
fusion had any life to be killed.  The Legitimists are
angry at the praise of 1830, at the allusion to the
throne as then vacant, at the claiming for Louis
Philippe the conquest of Algiers. The free traders
dislike the sneer at the Commercial Treaty, and the




1861.]   THE QUEEN AND THE EMPEROR.


279


liberals the sympathy expressed for the Pope. On
the whole, however, its publication is an important
event. It has given a blow to the Emperor, and a
wound to Prince Napoleon.
Merirme'e.-It gave Prince Napoleon a great opportunity. If he had instantly fought the Due d'Aumale, he might have become popular.
Senior.-It would have been a dangerous experiment.
Merine'e.-Those are dangers which a man who
accepts the title of General, and rides about on a
charger with a sword, is bound to encounter.
Sernior.-His habits of life have not prepared him
for such trials.
I spent the evening at Montalembert's.
Montalembert.-I still find among your countrymen men who trust in the honour, or in the friendship, or, at least, in the good intentions, of Celui-ci,
who still think that Queen Victoria and the Emperor
Napoleon can be permanently allied. I hope that
they may remain at peace, for peace depends on
mutual fear; but allies, except for some one special
enterprise, such as the Russian war, they cannot be.
An alliance supposes some community of feelings
and of purposes, and nothing can be more opposed to
all your sentiments than his are. You are sober,
pacific, traditional, legal, honest. He hates all law,
all tradition, all established power, even all established
opinions, all that is sober, and all that is honest.




280


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


The world is governed by two classes of motives.
One class is yours. It contains-reason, habit,
honour, truth, fidelity, affection, generosity. The
other class is his. It contains-passion, desire of
change, vanity, hatred, selfishness, ambition, rapacity. His success is mainly owing to his absolute
indifference to the first class of motives, and therefore
his absolute freedom from the restraints which they
impose, and the intensity with which the second
class impel him; almost possess him. Between him,
therefore, and the vast majority of his countrymen,
there is perfect sympathy. They have the same
prejudices, the same hates, and the same desires.
But what sympathy can there be between him and
you, except, indeed, your common dislike of the Pope?
The Pope's is the oldest sovereignty in Europe.
When Celui-ci has destroyed that, he will try to finish
the destruction of the next oldest, the Roman empire.
Surely your countrymen cannot intend to be his
allies in that?
Senior.-Our alliance ended with the Russian
war, and I do not think it probable that there will
be again a real alliance between England and France
until France is again constitutional.
Montalembert.-Constitutional, in your sense of
the word, we shall never be. Thiers' maxim: 'Le
roi regne et ne gouverne pas,' was never accepted by
prince or by people. We should treat a really constitutional king as King Log.  You think that Louis
Philippe interfered too much. The French thought




1861.] A CONSTITUTIONAL KING IMPOSSIBLE.


281


that he interfered too little. They grudged him his
civil list, though it was not a third of what this man
is allowed, without a murmur, to receive and to
waste. They accused him    of avarice, whereas his
fault was, that he was too careless of money, that he
laid out for public purposes so much of his own,
that he was in debt when he left France. If, like
Celui-ci, he had delighted in show, and noise, and
ostentation; if he had had the tastes of a parvenu,
instead of those of a gentleman, the people would
have applauded his extravagance.  My countrymen
make me almost a misanthrope.    They are to be
governed only through their bad passions, or their
servile passions.  They are hounds.   They enjoy
nothing but a hunt, and respect nothing but a
whip.
April '24th.-I went with Lord Clyde to call on
Changarnier. We talked on our way of the new
weapons.
Lord Clyde.-The Armstrong gun is too delicate
an instrument for a field-piece.
Senior. —Yet it stood well in China.
Lord Clyde.-Yes, for there the roads were soft,
or rather, it was all soft, flat ground without much
road. If Armstrong guns had to be rattled over bad
roads on rocky ground they would soon get out of
order. As for the new muskets, we found in India
that the charge of the Enfield fits too closely. It
took in that climate too much exertion to ram  it




282


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


down. I do not attach great importance to the rifle,
except for light infantry and skirmishers. When two
lines of men are advancing towards one another,
much aim is not taken. They never actually meet;
the line that is least steady turns.
We committed a great mistake before Sebastopol.
We sent detachments into the trenches in which men
of different companies, sometimes under officers of
different regiments, were put together. This should
never be done. I was most careful in India never to
separate from one another the men who had been
used to serve together, or to put men under the
command of any but their own officers.
We found Changarnier in his dressing-gown,
sitting at work in a little boudoir adjoining his salon.
I asked what he was writing.
Changarnier.-My memoirs.     Falsehood is so
often required from the French press and truth forbidden, that I think it my duty to leave a record of
the much that I have seen and the little that I have
done.
We talked of Prince Napoleon's refusing Bastide's
challenge and declaring that it was Lamartine whom
his speech attacked.
Clzangarnier.-Lamartine has moral, but not
physical courage. On the 16th of April, 1848,
when I went to the Hotel de Ville to see what
preparations the Provisional Government had made




1861.]


THE EMPEROR AT MAGENTA.


283


for repelling the 100,000 ouvriers who were assembling in the Champ de Mars for the purpose of
attacking and deposing their rulers, he was trembling and helpless. When I asked him what was to
be done, he could answer only, 'Les Revolutions
ont leurs peripeties.' In fact, the danger was great,
for there were no soldiers in Paris.  The National
Guard, though it had been appointed and had chosen
its officers and received its arms, had not yet met.
No one knew whether it would turn out at all, or
with what feelings or intentions. Marrast was the
only other member of the Provisional Government
present.
I asked if they would give me power to act for
them.   'You may take it,' answered Marrast.    I
dictated to -Marrast a letter to be copied and sent to
the different legions of the National Guard, requiring
their immediate presence at the Hotel de Ville, and
indicating their line of march.  'If you have to
fight,' the letter added, 'tirez juste, et tirez bas.'
Marrast, however, would not write these words, so
that I was forced to write them in my own hand.
Well, the Emperor resembles Lamartine; he is
bold when he is planning, timid when he is executing.
Senior. —I am told that at Magenta he was the
person who showed the greatest coolness in danger.
Cl/angarnier.-He was not in immediate danger.
The battle did not actually begin till about two in
the afternoon. The Emperor crossed the Ticino by
the Buffalora bridge some hours earlier, but did not




284


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


remain long on the other side. He left his troops
there, returned to the right bank, and remained there
during the rest of the day. He was not within two
miles of the real fighting. To this extent he was in
danger, that if MacMahon on hearing our firing had
not turned to the right 'and marched on Magenta
without orders, or if the concentration of the Austrian army in and near Magenta had not been prevented by the interference of Hesse with Giulay, the
French troops on the left bank of the Ticino must
have been beaten, and he might have had to gallop
for his life.
I spent the evening at Thiers', and met there a
North American.
Thiers is only passing through Paris. He joins
in the general opinion that Louis Napoleon does not
at present intend to take the initiative in any war,
though he believes him to be fomenting war everywhere else, in Poland, in Syria, in Hungary, and in
Bulgaria.
Thiers.-I admire much the Due d'Aumale's letter.
It is admirable in design and execution. Perhaps he
could not avoid publishing it. Perhaps he could not
remain silent when his family were so furiously calumniated. But I fear that all these attacks on royalty
may turn to the profit of the revolutionary party;
that is the party to be dreaded, for it will soon be
the Imperial party. The object of Louis Napoleon's
hatred is, whatever is established-religion, morality,




1861.]


PROSPECTS OF AMERICA.


285


international law, treaties, institutions, aristocracies,
and sovereigns. If he could, he would leave nothing
in Europe standing but a despot, an army, and a
mob. If his mad career be not cut short, the decisive
struggle between all that is conservative in Europe
and all that is destructive may come. If France fail,
she may be dismembered; if France succeed, the
Caesarian regime may follow.  The throne of France
may again and again be the prize of an usurper,
reigning by the grace of the army and of the people.
Senior.-Up to 1848 every revolution has produced, or at least pointed out, its great men.  The
long despotism of Louis Quatorze and Louis Quinze
trained the men of 1789; the despotism of Napoleon
trained the men of the Restoration and of Louis
Philippe; but 1848 has produced nobody.
Thiers.-Nor will 1852.    There is no Young
France, at least, in politics; if there were, Keller
would not pass for a speaker. We justify, perhaps,
our degradation by submitting to it so quietly.
He spoke with great regret of the dissolution of
the American union.
Thiers.-It is a great misfortune to the whole
world, and peculiarly to France.
American. 'I do not believe that it is to be
averted. I do not believe that even a previous war
can be averted.
Senior. —But how will that war end? You may
beat the South, I believe that you will do so, but




286


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


can you conquer it? If you conquer it, can you
rule it as a conquered country? If you force it to
re-enter the Union, can you force it to become a
loyal member of your confederation? Will you be
stronger or happier for having your Hungary, your
Poland, your Venetia, your Ireland?
If separation is to be the ultimate result, would
it not be better to let the result which, sooner or later,
will be obtained, be obtained peacefully?
Amrerican.-You do not take into account, or you
do not sufficiently take into account, the effect on the
separate states of such an example. To quietly allow
the South to secede on such a motive as this, would
be to proclaim that the states of the Union are united
by no special bond-that the Union is a mere
voluntary and temporary compact, not a marriage,
but a cohabitation to be dissolved on any whim or
caprice. For what pretext can be more monstrous
than that by which the present secession is defended
-the election of an obnoxious President? On such
terms no confederation, indeed no state, can expect
to retain its integrity for more than a few years.
We see to what a state of semi-barbarism disintegration has reduced Spanish America.   English
America must be saved from such a fate, and it can
be saved only by making secession a difficult and
dangerous attempt.
In Europe you hold every individual who endeavours to separate a province from the monarchy
of which it is a part, guilty of treason, and you hang




1861.]


THE SOUTH MUST NOT SEPARATE.


287


him whenever you can. We cannot hang our seceders,
but we must inflict on them the only punishment
that can   be inflicted   on  states-war.      We shall
ourselves suffer a great part of that punishment, but
we shall remain a nation, that is to say, a permanent
body, with a past and a future.      If we abandon our
duty, if fear of the sufferings which we must endure
and inflict leads us tamely to acquiesce in this separation, we shall become virtually a mere collection of
settlers, friends to-day, perhaps strangers to-morrow,
and enemies the day after.
Thursday, April 25th.-General Trochu       called on
me.   We talked of different armies.
Trochu.-In our own, the best troops are the
infantry of the line, taken from the plough. They
" General Trochu was born in 1815, and educated at St. Cyr.
He became a captain in 1843, and was attached to the army of
Marshal Bugeaud in Algeria. He was aide-de-camp to St. Arnaud
in the Crimea, appointed Brigadier-General in November 1854, and
commanded in that capacity to the end of the war. He was
General of Division in the Italian campaign in 1859. In 1861,
when he was appointed Grand Oficier de la Legion d'honneur, he
counted twenty-five years of active service, and eighteen campaigns. His work on the French army in 1867 went through
seven editions.  He was appointed Governor of Paris in 1870,
and during the siege he held the command and directed the
operations of all the troops within the walls. In 1871 he was
elected a member of the National Assembly, and sat in the Right
Centre. He retired into private life in 1872.-ED.




288


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


are sober, docile, brave, proud of their country and of
their profession; and though anxious to return to
their friends and to their little properties, perform
zealously their duties.
Senior.-We hear much more of the Zouaves.
Trochu.-The Zouaves have wondeful elan; they
are a useful portion of our army; but I doubt whether
they are worth what they cost. They are ill disciplined and marauders, and so set a bad example.
They are taken from different regiments, which are
thus deprived of their most active and energetic
soldiers.
Senior. —What think you of the Piedmontese?
Fenelon described them to me as good third-rate.
Trochu.-So I should have called them, from what
I saw of them in Italy. In the Crimea they did nothing. But now, swamped as it is by a rabble of
Tuscans, Romans, and Neapolitans, the Italian army
can be worth little,-I had almost said, nothing.
The best troops in the world are the English, and
the best portion are the infantry and artillery.
Never in the history of war did only two guns do
such service as Major Dickson's did at Inkerman.
Never did troops stand such attacks as your Guards
did on that day. Ours could not have done it. I
saw the field. There was an uninterrupted line of
dead Guardsmen,-every man seemed to have fallen
at his post. It is fortunate that your army is so small.
If it were as large as ours is, it would conquer the
world.




1861.]  AUSTRIAN AND RUSSIAN SOLDIERS.


289


Senior.-What are the Russians?
Trochu. -Very good indeed, but they have no
generals. It seems an absurdity; but one cause of
their failure at Inkerman was their superiority in
number. Their columns were so crowded that they
interfered with one another, had not room to deploy,
and were ravaged by our fire.
The Austrians, too, are very good. But with the
exception of Benedec, who is excellent, they were
miserably  commanded.   Hesse was an excellent
general in 1854, but he has lost his decision and his
presence of mind. He saved us at Magenta by stopping the march of the Austrians on the 2nd of June.
Giulay never had any merit. Their commissariat was
worse managed than our own, which was not brilliant.
Both at Magenta and at Solferino we made prisoners
of regiments who had not eaten during the day. The
first thing that they did was to ask for food.
The Austrian soldiers began the war under great
disadvantages.  They expected to be beaten. They
believed our troops to be much more superior to theirs
than they really are. We equally exaggerated their
inferiority. Our confidence and their despondence
had a great effect on the campaign.
As for the two Emperors, they were about equally
useless; but the Austrian exposing himself to fire and
interfering, did perhaps the most harm.
Senior. —Did not Louis Napoleon expose himself?
Trochu. —Not in the least. In the morning of the
4th of June, he crossed the Ticino, by the Buffalora
VOL. I.                             U




290


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


bridge, and found that the enemy were in force at
Magenta, on the other side of the Naviglio. He
maintained that it was only a reconnaissance, and
returned to the right bank, where he remained during
the rest of the day, three miles from the battle.
I was with my brigade-part of Canrobert's division
-at Novara,in the rear, about sixteen miles from Buffalora, and twelve from Trecate, where we were to sleep.
When we reached Trecate, we received orders to advance
as quickly as we could to Buffalora. We reached Buffalora in the evening in some disorder from the haste
of our march. I found the Emperor before the door
of a house, near the bridge, walking silently up and
down, and smoking. I asked him for orders, and he
answered that I had better cross the bridge and advance towards the Magenta. There the battle was
going on, but the Austrians were losing ground.
I found several generals, but nobody who could
give me any orders, and at last I was advised to
attack a village to our right. I did so,-drove out
the Austrians, and established myself there for the
night. At about three in the morning, I was attacked
myself, but unsuccessfully.
Senior.-That seems to prove that your victory at
Magenta was not complete. A thoroughly beaten
army does not attack within a few hours.
Trochu.-Certainly; and so they seem to have
thought at head-quarters.  For though we were
highly praised, and twelve crosses were given to me
to be distributed to my officers, the fact that we had




1861.]


BATTLE OF SOLFERINO.


291


been attacked was carefully concealed. You will find
no mention of it in the bulletins or general orders.
As for Solferino, I can tell you but little. Canrobert's division formed the extreme right of our army,
and was ordered to protect it against Lichtenstein,
who, with 40,000 men, had left Mantua the night
before, and was supposed to intend to attack us. A
few regiments of his cavalry did indeed come near
enough to charge us, but they were easily repulsed
and left the field, and he himself was never within
sight of us. I am inclined to think that under such
circumstances Canrobert ought to have moved toward our left, and taken part in the attack on the
Austrian centre. He received no orders, however,
and remained stationary.
As for the Emperor, it is certain that not one of
about 250 persons who were about him was touched.
He can scarcely have been under fire. He says, as I
know, that he found a battle a very different thing
from what he expected. He thought that it would
consist of manceuvres, scientifically planned and carefully executed. He found it a wild scene of disorder,
difficult to understand, and governed more by accident
than by skill. I do not believe that he wishes to
command again.
Senior. —I am told that the cavalry on both sides
was ill managed?
Trochu. — Very ill.  Ours did little, and the
Austrians did little. My brigade was in a field, insulated, at some distance from  any  support.  If




292


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Lichtenstein's cavalry had attacked us in force, they
might have cut us off. In fact, if Lichtenstein had
come up as he ought to have done, or if, without
waiting for him, the Austrians had attacked our right,
consisting of Niel's and Canrobert's divisions, as they
came up, they could have overwhelmed us with their
superior forces and taken in the rear Baraguay
d'Hilliers and MacMahon during their attack on
Solferino.
If they had beaten us, it would have been a far
more decisive victory than ours was. When we had
taken Solferino, they leisurely retired and recrossed
the Mincio without loss. We should have had no
good line of retreat open.
General Trochu was followed by General Fenelon.
I gave him an outline of our conversation.
Fenelon.-I know nothing of Magenta, for I was
in the rear. Trochu knows little of Solferino, for he
was not allowed to take part in it. If Canrobert had
received the orders which he ought to have received,
and come to the assistance of our centre as soon as
it became clear that there was nothing to fear from
Lichtenstein, we should have taken 30,000 prisoners.
I do not know whether the Emperor exposed himself at Solferino. He certainly gave some orders.
He pointed out Solferino as the key of the enemy's
position. He ordered it to be made the one point of
attack, —it was so: it was taken, and the victory
was gained.




1861.] MILITARY QUALITIES OF LOUIS NAPOLEON. 293


Trochu says that if the Austrians had vigorously
attacked our right before Medola, our centre might have
been taken in the rear and defeated. It is possible.
The Austrians had 80,000 men more than we had,
and might have used them against us with effect.
But these are only suppositions. In war we must
judge by the result. The Emperor did more than one
man in a hundred, perhaps one man in a thousand,
seeing actual war for the first time, and commanding
200,000 men, would have done. He has great military
qualities, and if he had begun sooner, would have
been a distinguished general. He is decided, he is
tenace, and, above all, he is not afraid of responsibility.
I am not sure that he will not command again. It is
a metier which one easily learns to love passionately,
especially when one has the power to produce great
results. Nothing can be conceived so interesting as a
field of battle, though it is, as Trochu says, wild and
disorderly. Even the horses lose their natural timidity,
They will carry you fearlessly over the field while the
fight is going on. The next day they would shy at
every dead body or dismounted gun.
April 26th.-I called on Lord Cowley.
He agrees with the opinion of the great majority
of my friends, that Louis Napoleon does not at
present intend war. One war, perhaps, was necessary
to him. He has had two, and is satisfied.
' How do you explain, then,' I asked, 'his great
armaments? '




294


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Lord Cowley.-Early in his reign he said to me
that he was determined not to fall, as Louis Philippe
had done, by an ultra-pacific policy; that he knew
well that the instincts of France were military and
domineering; and that he was resolved to gratify
them. As for his fleet, he admits to me that it
is absurdly large; that his rivalry with us is a race
of expense in which he cannot win.
'I know,' he said, 'that in a naval war you will
have the command of the sea, and be able to burn
my arsenals. But the present expenditure is only
carrying out the recommendations of a committee of
the Legislative Assembly; and though I think them
wrong, I must follow them.'
Have you heard what passed at the Conseil des
Jlinistres on the Sunday after the Duc d'Aumale's
pamphlet appeared?   They all came open-mouthed,
exclaiming against its calumnies and lies.
' Mais, messieurs,' said the Emperor, ' il n'y a pas
de quoi crier contre la calomnie et le mensonge. Tout
eat vrai dans la brochure. The only mistake is, that I
am described as conferring with the republican chiefs
while my mother was with the King, whereas I was
then kept in bed by a quinsy.'
I mentioned to him my conversation with General
Trochu.
Lord Cowley.-Canrobert has often talked to me
in almost the same words. Trochu has long served
under him, and they have the same opinions. Can



1861.]


LORD RAGLAN S ADVICE.


295


robert told me that when the Russian attacks had all
failed, and he and Lord Raglan stood together on the
edge of the cliff below the two-gun battery looking
at the Russians in retreat, Lord Raglan proposed
to him to follow them up in force, and to try to
enter Sebastopol with them, and finish the siege that
day. 'I hesitated,' says Canrobert. 'The attempt
was, of course, dangerous; but on the whole I regret
that I did not follow his advice: the chances were
in our favour.'
April 26th.-Lord Clyde, Captain Hore, our naval
attache, and Captain Lynch of the Indian naval service, breakfasted with us. We talked of the French
naval budget.
Hore. —It is a mere prospective estimate made
eighteen months in advance. It is a minimum, but
very far from a maximum. The naval budget for the
last year was five millions sterling. The actual
expenditure was eight millions.
Senior.-Do you think that we are sufficiently
ahead of them?
Hore. —We are. But we have no ship actually at
sea equal to the Gloire. The Warrior, however,
when we get her, will be superior to her.
Senior.-She is not, like the Gloire, invulnerable?
Hore. —No; but she is incombustible, which the
Gloire is not. The shell of the Warrior is iron, that
of the Gloire is wood. The thing most to be feared
now is fire. We shall discharge shells filled with




296


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


melted iron. Her plating will resist them, but one of
them may enter a port; and if such a shell bursts in
her, she must take fire.
Senior.-Then she cannot use her main-deck guns
if there be any sea.
Hore.-That would be a great defect if she were
intended for sea-going purposes; but in the Channel
she may bide her time, and come out only in a calm.
In a calm she would be a match for four, or perhaps
five, ships of equal size. The undefended parts of
the Warrior are in water-tight compartments, and no
men would be there in action. Not much damage
could be done to her. Her screw shaft is too deeply
immersed to be exposed. No shot can penetrate ten
feet of water.
Lynch.-Could not her rudder be exposed?
lore.-That is deep too. But this is unavoidable
in all ships.
Lynch.-I think that if she were mine I should
either strip off her armour, which weighs about
2000 tons, and thereby give her greater speed, or
take down her masts and rigging, so as to avoid the
danger of their being shot away and fouling her
screw. In fact, I would have only two sorts of ships
-invulnerable unrigged vessels, which cannot be
very swift, for the attack and defence of the Channel,
moved only by steam, and very large and swift
frigates, unplated, for more distant service.
Wore.-It may be necessary to send the Warrior
into the Mediterranean. As the French will have




1861.]   PROSPECTS OF NAVAL WARFARE.


297


plated vessels there, so must we. For that purpose
she must be rigged, in order to economise her coal.
I admit that for Channel purposes, and generally for
the attack and defence of ports and harbours, unrigged invulnerable floating batteries will be necessary.
Senior.-It seems to me that whoever has the
command of the sea at the beginning of a war must
keep it, as he will be able to destroy his enemies'
docks and arsenals.
Lynch.-He would be able at least to destroy all
the wooden ships in his harbours. An invulnerable
ship could steam into Cherbourg, and destroy all that
was afloat within the Digue-perhaps the forts on
the Digue.
IHore. —We shall have to build invulnerable fortifications at some points.  To do so will be expensive,
but it must be practicable, for their armour may be
as heavy as you like.
Senior. —Shall we build any more line-of-battle
ships?
Lynch. —Certainly not. I doubt the wisdom of
even completing those that are on the stocks. Single
deckers have more speed, and in steam warfare speed
is everything.
Senior. —I have often heard the opinion that the
best vessel for Channel purposes will be a gunboat
carrying only one, or at most two, very heavy guns.
Lynch. —That may turn out to be the case.
Senior. —What do you think of rams?




298


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Hore.-Of course, if a very heavy steamer could
strike her enemy on her quarter, she might run her
down: but the chances are so much against her
having the opportunity, that I do not think that
ships ought to be built for that purpose.
Senior.-Shall we continue to build large wooden
ships?
Hore.-I doubt it. Besides the enormous danger
of fire, a wooden ship is quickly injured by the vibration of the screw. An iron ship lasts longer without
repair, and is more easily repaired. On the other
hand, an iron ship cannot be coppered-the two
metals corrode one another. She therefore fouls
quickly. We are trying paints, and probably shall
in time find something that will prevent or diminish
fouling.
Senior.-In a contest depending on iron, we ought
to beat the French, for ours is much cheaper.
Hore.-Yes, but worse. Theirs is made principally with wood, ours with coal. Our great superiority is in men. They have not 80,000 sailors,
including fishermen. We have four times as many.
And fishermen, of whom a large portion of their
sailors consists, are bad man-of-war's men.
Senior.-How long does a sailor last?
Hore.-He is not good after thirty-eight; but as
they begin at eighteen, that gives twenty years' service. In fact, they begin as boys at thirteen or
fourteen; and the best sailors are those who have
been trained in the Queen's service as boys.




1861.]    THE DUC D AUMALE S LETTER.


299


Lord Clyde.-A    soldier is best at the age of
twenty-eight. He, too, is generally too old at thirtyeight.
Senior.-You    lose them  at their best, for at
twenty-eight their ten years' service has expired.
Lord Clyde.-Many of them re-enter; but it is a
misfortune that they seldom   re-enter in their old
regiments. They have been boasting, perhaps, to their
companions that they should soon be free, or they
want change. Whatever be the motive, such is the
fact.
April 28th.-I breakfasted with D. E. F.     We
talked of the letter.
D. E. F.-It has most affected the bourgeoisie and
the army. The higher classes do not require to be
reminded of the crimes or the vices of the Bonapartes,
or of the glories of the Bourbon race.  The ouvriers
-that is, the working men of Paris —do not like it.
It speaks respectfully of the Pope, of the Neapolitan
royal family, and of the ancien regime, and slightingly of Italian unity. Here is a letter from an
intelligent working man.   He begs me not to distribute it among his fellows.
But it is popular with the army, in consequence
of their traditional affection for the Duc d'Aumale,
and popular with the bourgeoisie, who are engrossed
with their own affairs, and look back with regret to
the quiet times of the government of the house of
Orleans, and with earnest hope to its restoration.




300


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


There are, in fact, only two important parties in
France-the Liberals and the Revolutionists-for
the only other large party, that of the servile
Legitimists, is powerless. Under these two great
divisions are comprised many who profess to belong
to other parties. Thus, among the Liberals are
Legitimists, Orleanists, Republicans, and even Imperialists. I could cite among our common friends
men of every denomination, who yet are Liberals,
Thus, Circourt, Corcelle, and Chambrun, are Liberals,
though  Legitimists.  The  Chevaliers, Kergorlay,
and Drouyn de Lhuys, are Liberals, though Imperialists. The great majority of the Orleanists are
Liberals, and perhaps half of the Republicans. On
the other hand, the party which I term revolutionary
comprises also Legitimists, Orleanists, Republicans,
and Imperialists. The difference between the two
parties consists, not so much in the form of government which they respectively prefer, as in the objects
which they respectively wish that Government to
pursue.
The Liberals desire law, peace, constitutional
government. They feel humiliated and degraded
by their impotence. Even when they approve of the
results of their master's policy, they dislike the
means. Many of them are free-traders, but they are
ashamed to have free-trade forced upon them by a
trick. All are pleased to get Savoy, but they wish
that they had been consulted as to its acquisition.
Many dislike the temporal, and many the spiritual




1861.] THE LIBERALS AND REVOLUTIONISTS.


301


power of the Pope; but they all abhor the hypocrisy
and treachery with which he has been deceived,
robbed, and oppressed. In many cases they detest
the end almost as much as the means. The majority
are Protectionists; the majority are Catholics, from
belief, or because they think Catholicism useful.
Then the lavish expenditure, the constantly increasing debt, the conscription, the corruption, and
the illegality of this regime offend them all.  They
know that every foreign country is arming against
us; that we are the disturbers of Europe; that the
second Empire is following the course, and preparing
the disasters of the first, or perhaps worse disasters.
Hatred of military rule, hatred of an aggressive
foreign policy, and of a corrupt, despotic, wasteful,
irrational administration at home, and an earnest
desire to control and direct their Government, are
the bonds which unite all the liberal party.
The revolutionary party wishes for despotism
everywhere. It wishes France to be despotic abroad,
and its ruler to be despotic at home. For these
purposes it would destroy every foreign power which
is a restraint on -France without, and every institution which checks her master within. A Legitimist
king-le premier gentilhomme de France, or a Constitutional king —e premier bourgeois-would be
equally objects of its detestation. It hates the
noblesse, it hates the lawyers, it hates the clergy, it
hates every superiority of rank, or wealth, or education, or refinement. Of this party Louis Napoleon is




302


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


making himself the head. It is active, and it is
unscrupulous; but it is a minority, and in quiet
times it is a diminishing minority.
The Revolutionists of Louis Philippe's time, and
of 1848, are getting older and soberer; as they die
out they are not replaced. Every year the more
sensible men of the party detach themselves from it.
They feel the dangers of its foreign policy, and find
out the mischief of its home government. In 1854 -two years after the coup d'etat-though Louis Napoleon had then the support of the Conservative party,
he was falling. He had recourse to war.
War instantly withdraws our attention from our
home affairs. We think of nothing but victory and
defeat. The only questions asked are, How such a
general, or such a division, or such a regiment, has
behaved? What are the prospects of the campaign,
and what profit is to be made out of loans and
contracts?
A voice denouncing the oppression or the corruption of the Government, or demanding reforms
or free institutions, is no more heard than the
preacher would be if a drum were beaten in the
church during his sermon. With the peace of
1856 the reaction against the Imperial system recommenced. It grew till 1859, when he stopped
it again by the Italian war. With the peace it has
begun again.  It is going on now; it is stronger
than it ever was. This is shown by the debates on
the address, by the boldness with which the Em



1861.] THE EMPEROR WILL PERISH IN A TEMPEST. 303


peror is denounced by the clergy; and, above all,
by the enormous success of the Duc d'Aumale's
letter.
I believe that Louis Napoleon now wishes for
peace, that he will defer war, and especially war
against you, as long as he can. But as soon as he
thinks that he has to choose between war and
dethronement, or even between war and constitutional government, he will decide for war.
Senior.-To the north, or to the east?
D. E. F.-That may depend on the facility of the
enterprise, or perhaps on the caprice of the moment.
A war for the Rhine, or a war with you-and probably one would bring on the other-would be the
more effectual diversion.  We care comparatively
little about distant wars. No one ever mentions
Cochin China. But, of course, it would be the more
dangerous war. If it were unsuccessful, he would let
out on us the wildest Socialism. He would probably
perish in a tempest. In the face of these dangers, he
will keep making preparations, but defer and defer
the war-perhaps defer it too long. Disease of body
or of mind may overtake him. He has no substitutes.
The ablest military men,-such as Changarnier,
MacMahon, Lamoriciere, and Trochu,-are Orleanists.
April 29th.-I paid some visits of adieu-among
others, to  Madame de Circourt.   We talked of
Madame de Lieven.




304              CONVERSATIONS.            [1861.
'She was very    agreeable,' said  Madame de
Circourt, 'in her own salon, but dull out of it-a
peculiarity which I have often remarked among
women distinguished dans 'art de tenir salon. They
are so accustomed to direct the conversation-rather
to make others talk than to talk themselves, and to
be constantly dans un etat de representation-that they
feel awkward and dispirited, or else indifferent, when
they leave their thrones.'
April 30th.-We left Paris.




1861 (CONTINUED).


[IN the summer of 1861, Madame de Tocqueville
invited some of her late husband's intimate friends
to visit her at Tocqueville.  My father and I
were among the number, and we met M. and
Madame de Beaumont and M. Ampere. The journal
kept by Mr. Senior during this visit is published at
the end of the Conversations and Correspondence
with Alexis de Tocqueville. We next proceeded to
Switzerland, where we intended to visit the De la
Rives, M. Marcet, and other friends, but were
stopped at Ouchy by the serious illness of my
father.-Eri.]
Hotel Beaurivage, Ouchy, near Lausanne, August
29th.-We left Tocqueville on the 20th, spent a
couple of days in Paris, and started on the 23rd by
the 7.30 p.m. train for Lausanne, which we reached
at about 12.30 the next day. The sun had just risen
when we arrived at Macon, where we left the Lyons
railway for that which struggles and twists through
the Jura to Geneva. The road from Amberieux to
Culoz runs through a succession of deep, narrow
VOL. I.                            X




306


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


valleys, traversed in the beginning by the little river
Alberine. We saw it very ill through the windows
of a railway carriage, blinded by a fierce sun and tired
by twelve hours' travelling; but to anyone who could
walk, or ride, or even drive through it, it must be
enchanting. The hills on each side rise from 1500
to 24,000 feet, sometimes precipitous, but generally
covered by pasture or forest. The narrow strip of
level ground along which we rushed, passing from
valley to valley through long tunnels, was green and
well wooded, and the hill-sides were studded with
picturesque villages.
At Culoz we met the Rhone, and kept it in our
sight till we reached Geneva. About Bellegarde the
Rhone is about 200 feet lower than the railway, is contracted to about sixteen feet in breadth, and is forced
to fight its way through passages which it has eaten
for itself in the limestone rock.  That the whole
lake of Geneva, forty-five miles long, six miles broad,
and 900 feet deep, should escape by a passage only
sixteen feet wide, seems impossible; but such is the
case. In the midst of these wonders we, poor railway
travellers, could only know that there was glorious
scenery all around us which we could not examine.
At Bellegarde we left France: this was shown,
not by any demand of passport or examination of
luggage, but by the immediate improvement in the
houses, the gardens, the fields, and the general
appearance of the population. I remember having
been struck, when I posted from Geneva to Dijon,




1861.] UNTIDINESS OF CATHOLIC COUNTRIES.


307


twenty-four years ago, by the deterioration as soon as
I crossed the French frontier. The road, which had
been excellent, suddenly became execrable, countryhouses disappeared, the villages became untidy         or
ruinous, no houses were being built or even repaired,  the   population   was    squalid -  civilisation
seemed to have receded a century.
The difference between Switzerland and France is
now perhaps rather less; but still it is very great.
We are here in one of the magnificent new        hotels
with which the railways are filling Switzerland. This
hotel, just overlooking the lake, with a garden joining
M. Haldimand's     grounds of Denantou, was opened in
* M. Haldimand was a man of great cultivation, refinement,
and benevolence. His sister was Mrs. Marcet, the distinguished
authoress of Conversations on Political Economy, Conversations on
Chemistry, Willie's Seasons, and many other delightful books for
young people, In 1860, M. Haldimand had already attained a
great age, andL had lost the use of his limbs; but his conversation
was as agreeable as ever, and his hearing unimpaired.-ED.
Since the above paragraph was printed, I have received the
following note from Mr. Frank Marcet:M. Haldimand's father was of Swiss origin, but established in
England since the middle of the last century, and the head of a
well-known commercial house in London. His son William, born
in 1784, was appointed Director of the Bank of England at the
early age of twenty-five; and greatly contributed, by his knowledge of Political Economy and the evidence he gave before a
Select Committee of the House of Commons, to the abolition of
the Bank Act of 1797, and the resumption of cash payments.
At the general election of 1820, Haldimand obtained an
independent seat in Parliament for the Borough of Ipswich. He




308


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


the spring, and is found far too small. It can accommodate, the landlord tells me, 192 maitres, and on
the morning that we arrived he had already had to
turn off sixty families, and expected to have to refuse
as many in the evening.
I hear that all the inns are equally crowded. If I
ever come to Switzerland again, it shall be in May or
June, not in the touring season of August and September.   At this time the accommodation is not half
equal to   the demand.      Our landlord purposes to
was renominated by a small majority in 1826; but his health,
which had been declining for some time past, and the chances of
a petition against his return with which he was threatened,
decided him to retire altogether from public life. He was soon
after induced, by the advice of his physician, to leave England,
and take up his abode at Ouchy, near Lausanne, in one of the
prettiest villas of that neighbourhood.  He passed there the
remainder of his life; his health improved, and he lived surrounded by friends, both English and Swiss, for whom he kept,
so to speak, open house for many years.
His popularity at Lausanne was extreme. He founded and
maintained at his expense during his lifetime, and by a munificent
legacy (20,0001.) after his death, the well-known Asylum for
Teaching the Blind, for which the town of Lausanne granted
him the 'Bourgeoisie d'honneur.' He also founded a hospital for
the poor at Aix-les-Bains, which bore his name, until Queen
Hortense having, with his consent, contributed a small sum in
order to increase the number of beds, her name was substituted
for that of the original founder.
Haldimand, during the latter part of his life, was attacked
with paralysis, and completely lost the use of his legs; but his
faculties remained unimpaired until his death, which took place in
September 1862.-F. MARCET.




1861.]


EXTREME HEAT.


309


build a new hotel, close to this, to accommodate four
or five hundred guests, in smaller rooms, and less
luxuriously furnished than those of this vast palace.
We drove, on the evening of our arrival, to Bois
Cery, about three miles from Lausanne, where
Duvergier de Hauranne has a small house, in a
beautiful country, seven or eight hundred feet above
the Lake. We found the family preparing for an expedition next day to Zermat, which is to occupy a
week.
The day had been oppressively hot. I felt so unwell at night, that I was forced to send for a Lausanne
physician, Dr. Ricordon. I have been ever since in
his hands, and have been unable to do more than
walk from the hotel to M. Haldimand's, about half
a mile off, and back.
The weather is sultry, seldom less than 78~ in our
rooms, and 98~ to 100~ in the sun. The nights, however, are not unpleasant, as there is generally a breeze
from the Lake. My sleeping apparatus consists of one
sheet, spread over the elastic mattress, and another
above me, and the window open. We are forced to
close the blinds, indeed the shutters, all the morning.
We do not, however, lose much, for, until the afternoon, Ithe mountains on the opposite shore of the
Lake, here about six miles wide, are covered by haze.
Towards the evening it clears away, their fine outlines
become clear and defined, we can distinguish pastures
on their sides and slightly inclined green plateaux on
the tops of those nearest to us. On the sides of those




310


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


above Vevay and Villeneuve there are still some
patches of snow.
Later in the evening, as the sun sinks behind the
Jura, the Savoy mountains are in shadow for about
half their height, but reflect the red rays from their
summits. Later still they are of a uniform dark blue,
and at night they look like low, black hills, divided
from us by a narrow strait.  The eye, not having
light enough to judge of distance or of size, undervalues both the width of the Lake and the height of
the mountains.
The pleasure-grounds of Denantou are unrestrictedly open to the public. They are not extensive, but
are planted with great taste. Here M. Haldimand
was visited by Queen Hortense, who brought with
her her second son, Louis Napoleon.
Directly he came he sat down to sketch. 'Now,'
said his mother, 'he is thoroughly happy. All his
pleasures are those of country life and country
scenery. He has solemnly promised me never to
take any part in politics. And in fact he has no
taste for them.'
'Was the Queen,' I asked, 'pleasing?'
'Charming,' he answered; 'very handsome, intelligent, and simple, and tres grande dame. She put
you at ease at once. The Prince was silent, and I
thought even awkward.'
August 30th. —We were to have gone to
M. De la Rive's at his pretty country-house near




1861.]


THE VAUDOIS CONSTITUTION.


311


Geneva to-day, but I am not yet well enough for
visits.
I have been reading the Vaudois Constitution;
it professes to be a democratic republic.  The Evangelical, that is to say, the Calvinistic, creed is the
national religion. All children are to be educated
in the principles of Christianity and democracy. The
legislative authority is the Grand Conseil, consisting
at present of 194 members elected for four years by
universal suffrage. They are paid thirty batz (fifteen
pence) for every day on which they attend the
meetings of the Conseil, and five batz (twopence
halfpenny) a-mile travelling expenses to Lausanne,
including the expense of returning. A majority of
the whole number is necessary to make a house.
The executive authority is the Conseil d Etat,
consisting of nine persons chosen by the Grand
Conseil out of its own members. The present Conseil
d'Etat consists of two surveyors, one notary, and six
lawyers.  It is appointed  for four years.   As a
general rule, it has the exclusive power of proposing
laws to the Grand Conseil, but the Grand Conseil
may request it to propose a law, and if it neglects
for one year to do so, may propose it itself. The
judges are named by the Grand Conseil, and are
irremovable except by judicial sentence.
M. Haldimand called on us.
Haldimand.-I believe that this is the most prosperous community in the world.  The great body of




312


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


the people are proprietors, and they work on their
own lands with a vigour, a perseverance, and a
pleasure unknown to the hired labourer.
Senior.-I suppose that their families are small.
Haldimand.-There are about three children to
a marriage.
Senior.-Paucity of children seems to be essential
to the welfare of peasant proprietors in an old
country. If you had four and a half children to a
marriage, as we have, and your population doubled,
as ours does every fifty years, you would soon cease
to be mainly agricultural.
How is your aristocracy of the Rue du Bourg
going on?
fEaldimand.-Going down. There is a strange
difference between the aristocracy of the Pays de
Vaux and that of Geneva. In Geneva they take to
science, to literature, and to politics. The De la
Rives, Marcets, Prevosts, De Saussures, and others
whom I could name, are not only among the oldest,
but among the most distinguished families in the
Canton. The Lausanne aristocracy does nothing.
It inhabits its spacious, ill-kept houses in the Rue
du Bourg, lives in a clique, wastes its property, and
is dying out.
Senior.-I suppose that there is the usual republican jealousy of the higher orders?
Haldimand.-Certainly. I am forgiven because,
as an old bachelor with few wants, I give to the
public the use of my place and of a great part of my




1861.]


REPUBLICAN EQUALITY.


313


fortune. Still, I am scarcely popular. The other
day a friend of mine listened to the conversation
of the boatmen who were rowing him across the lake.
One of them    did me the honour of calling me' un
brave honmme!'   'Mais si c'est un brave homme,' said
the other, 'pourquoi a-t-il tant de domestiques?'
A  friend of mine, M. de Hauteville, who has a
large property above Vevay, wished to add a field
to it. It was for sale, and he offered more than its
value, but the owner would not sell to him. 'En
effet,' he said, 'nous ne voulons ici des sommite's hors
le Dent de Jaman.'
Chief Justice * and Lady Erle arrived this morning, and drank tea with us in the evening.
August 31st.-The hot weather of the last week
has knocked up Lady Erle. Sir William drank tea
with us.
September lst.-I will throw together my conversations of the last two days with Sir W. Erle.t
* Sir William Erle was appointed, in 1844, one of the Judges
of the Court of Common Pleas; in 1846 he was transferred to the
Court of Queen's Bench; in 1859 he was promoted to the Chief
Justiceship of the Court of Common Pleas, on the elevation of
Lord Campbell to the Woolsack. He retired into private life,
taking his farewell of the Bench on November 26th, 1866.-ED.
t These conversations have been corrected by Sir W. Erle.N. W. SENIOR.




314


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


I mentioned that in all the Swiss constitutions
trial by jury in criminal matters was required.
Erle.-And very wisely.
Senior.-Wisely for the purpose of keeping power
in the hands of the people?
Erle.-Wisely for all purposes.
Senior.-Including the discovery of truth?
Erle.-Including the discovery of truth. I believe that a jury is in general far more likely to come
to a right decision than a judge.
Senior.-That seems to me strange. The judge
has everything in his favour,-intelligence, education,
experience, and responsibility.
Erle.-With respect to intelligence, a judge is
certainly superior to  an  ordinary juryman; but
among the twelve there will generally be found
one, often two men, of considerable intelligence, and
they lead the rest. As to education, the jury have
decidedly the advantage. The education of a judge,
as far as relates to deciding fact, is the education of a
practising barrister who is immersed in the world of
words, and removed from acting in the commercial,
agricultural, and manufacturing facts which form the
staple of contest. He is so accustomed to deny what
he believes to be true, to defend what he feels to be
wrong, to look for premisses, not for conclusions, that
he loses the sense of true and false-i. e. real and
unreal. Then he is essentially a London gentleman;
he knows nothing of the habits of thought, or of
feeling, or of action in the middle and lower classes




1861.]


SAGACITY OF JURIES.


315


who supply our litigants, witnesses, and prisoners.
And it is from barristers thus educated that judges
are taken.
When tried by aS jury, the prisoner is tried by
his peers, or by those who are a little above his
peers, who are practically accustomed to the facts
adduced as probantia, and can truly appreciate their
value. I have often been astonished by the sagacity
with which they enter into his feelings, suppose his
motives, and from the scattered indicia afforded by
the evidence conjecture a whole series of events.
For, after all, the verdict, if it be a conviction,
must always be a conjecture.
Experience the judge certainly has. As counsel
or as judge he has taken part in many hundreds of
trials. Tie juryman may never have served before.
But this long experience often gives the judge
prejudices which warp his judgment. The counsel
who are accustomed to plead before him find them
out and practise on them.
I was counsel in a case of assault. My client
had had three ribs broken by a drunken bargeman.
The opposite counsel cross-examined as to whether
since the accident he had not been a field preacher,
whether he had not actually preached from a tub.
He admitted that he had. I did not see the drift
of this, for though a man could not easily preach
directly after his ribs had been broken, he might
when they had reunited. The judge summed up
strongly against me, and my client got nothing. I




316


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


afterwards found that the judge had an almost insane
hatred of field preachers. It is true that each juryman may have prejudices equally absurd, but they
are neutralised by his fellows, and, above all, they
are not known. They cannot be turned to account
by counsel.
As for responsibility, a judge being a permanent
officer, especially a judge sitting alone, is more
responsible to public opinion than any individual
juryman, who is one of a body assembled only once
and immediately dissolved. But I believe that the
feeling of moral responsibility is much stronger in
the case of the juryman, to whom the situation is
new, whose attention is excited, who for the first
time in his life is called upon to exercise public
important functions in the face of all his neighbours,
than in that of a judge who is doing to-day what
he has been doing perhaps every day for ten years
before. I have seen dreadful carelessness in judges.
Again, a judge is often under the influence of particular counsel; some he hates, some he likes, some
he relies on, and some he fears. It is easy for a
judge to be impartial between plaintiff and defendant,
indeed, he is almost always so; it is difficult to be
impartial between counsel and counsel.
Senior.-I have felt that myself, but in general
the feeling of dislike was stronger than that of liking.
There were men on whose side I could decide only
by an effort; they were so false, so sophistical, so
anxious to dress up a cause which was sufficiently




1861.] CLASSES WHICH GIVE THE BEST JURYMEN. 317


good if merely clearly and simply stated, that I was
almost ashamed to decide for them lest I should be
supposed to have been deceived.    But I do not
recollect having had favourites.
Erle. —Perhaps you had them without knowing
it, and attributed solely to the argument a force which
was partly due to your good opinion of the speaker.
Senior.-Just as a juryman who had been in
court during the whole sitting at Liverpool congratulated Scarlett on having been always employed
by the side that was in the right. What class give
you the best jurymen?
Erle. —The respectable farmers and the higher
shopkeepers in the country towns. The men from
the great cities, accustomed to excess in trade
speculations, are inferior to them, especially in an
honest sense of duty. The worst juries that I have
known came from   such places. Their adventurous
gambling trade seems to make them    reckless. At
one time they appeared to have a pleasure in deciding
against what they supposed to be my opinion, which I
counteracted by seeming to give more emphasis to
the reasons in favour of the decision to which I was
opposed. One of the things which used at first to
surprise me, is the very small motive which is enough
to lead men to commit atrocious crimes. Smethurst's*
motive, for instance, was a small one.
* Dr. Smethurst was accused of marrying Miss Bankes during
the lifetime of his wife. He caused her to make a will in his




318


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-You hold Smethurst guilty?
Erle.-Certainly    I do.   If the evidence against
him was insufficient, almost all circumstantial evidence must be insufficient, for it scarcely ever is
stronger.
Senior.-Sir George Lewis was partly influenced
by the want of motive.
Erle.-Do     you   recollect the   Buckinghamshire
groom, who murdered his fellow-servant because
she would not give him a glass of beer?
Senior.-You would       have convicted     Vidil *  of
the attempt to murder?
Erle.-I have no doubt that he did attempt to
murder, and I think that I should have convicted
him.
favour, and she died soon afterwards of slow poison. He was
convicted and sentenced to execution, but Sir George Lewis, who
was Home Secretary at that time, did not consider the evidence
sufficient, and granted him a free pardon. Smethurst was afterwards tried, convicted, and imprisoned for bigamy.-ED.
* The Baron de Vidil made an attack upon his son with a
loaded whip while they were riding together in a lane near
Orleans House, Twickenham. The Baron alleged that his son's
injuries were caused by an accident on the road. In his deposition the boy said that his father had struck him twice on the
head; at the police examination, however, he refused to give any
information tending to criminate his father. Immediately after
the occurrence, the Baron fled to Paris, where he was apprehended
and tried. As the son still refused to give any evidence against
his father, the jury could find the prisoner guilty only of unlawfully wounding. The Baron was sentenced to twelve months'
imprisonment with hard labour.-ED.




1861.]


FAT PRISONERS AT DARTMOOR.


319


Senior.-Would he have been hanged?
Erle. —I think not.  I recollect no case of an
execution for a mere attempt. He would have been
sentenced to penal servitude for twenty-five years,
which means twelve and a half years if the prisoner
conducts himself well. His present sentence of one
year's hard labour is severer while it lasts. The men
in penal servitude live apart, each in his cell, and
employed in trades. Great importance is attached to
keeping up their weight. As their work does not
promote the development of muscle, their weight is
retained by fattening them. I saw a set of convicts
at Dartmoor. Every one of them had thrown out a
bow window. Nothing could look more absurd than
a line of sixty or seventy men, each adorned by this
prominence. Its reformatory effects, however, will be
great. They will be guilty of none of the thefts
which require agility.
Senior.-I am not sure of that; Falstaff was a
highwayman.
Erle. —Yes; but he admitted that he could not
rob a-foot, anl no one can rob now on horseback.
Senior.-And how will Vidil's punishment differ
from penal servitude?
Erle. —It will not be separate, he will be mixed
with common felons. He will probably have to sleep
on an inclined plane fifty or sixty feet long, and six
feet broad, running along the side of the room, among
twenty or thirty other convicts, those on each side of
him separated from him by only an imaginary line.




320


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


He will have to work with them and live with them.
To a man of any refinement, and he must have some,
it is a horrible sentence. And think what will be his
position when he is released. I had much rather be
hanged.
Senior.-Do you believe that many innocent men
are tried?
Erle.-I believe that many men are tried, and
that some are convicted, who are innocent of the
crime of which they are accused. But I also believe
that almost all those who are wrongfully accused, and
that all those who are wrongfully convicted, belong
to the criminal class. An honest man always proves
an alibi, but a professional thief is constantly employed in some breach of the law. If, from a mistake
of identity, the great cause of erroneous prosecutions,
he is accused of some crime of which he is not guilty,
he too can prove an alibi; but that very alibi would
show his participation in some other crime. He prefers the risk of a false conviction to the certainty of a
true one. He will not defend himself against the
charge of having stolen A.'s sheep, by'showing that
at that very time he was breaking into B.'s house.
Senior.-You have pleaded the cause of juries in
criminal cases. What do you say to them in civil
causes?
Erle.-Even in civil causes I prefer juries to
judges. The indifference to real and unreal, and so
to right and wrong, which besets a barrister bred in
the world of words rather than of facts, often follows




1861.]


EVILS OF STRONG DECISIONS.


321


him to the bench.    Besides this, I have known
judges, bred in the world of legal studies, who
delighted in nothing so much as in a strong decision.
Now   a strong decision is a decision opposed to
common sense and to common convenience.
Senior. —Such, for instance, as Lord Eldon's;
that if a book be mischievous you have a right to
pirate it.
Erle.-A great part of the law made by judges
consists of strong decisions, and as one strong decision
is a precedent for another a little stronger, the law at
last on some matters becomes such a nuisance, that
equity intervenes, or an Act of Parliament must be
passed to sweep the whole away.
Senior. —As was done as to the construction of
wills.
I am told that Cockburn regrets that he has
changed the bar for the bench.
Erle.-So do not I. Both are laborious, and both
are anxious; but the labour of the bar to a man in
great practice is overwhelming. My great delight is
my farm at Liphook. I cannot explain to you the
soothing influence of agricultural occupation. As
soon as I get there, I run to look at my colts and
my calves, and my other stock, even my pigs. I care
much more about my turnips, which are of no real
value, than about my salary. When I am     going
away I get up an hour earlier to go round the farm
once more.
Senior.-I have no doubt that farming is an
VOL. I.                             Y




322


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


agreeable and interesting amusement; but is it not
an expensive one?
Erle.-I do not think that my farm costs me more
than two hundred pounds a-year. It is the money
which I spend most profitably.
September 2nd.-Baron Marochetti " is at Evian,
on the opposite side of the Lake.       Steamers cross
in half-an-hour, three and four times a-day. He
breakfasted with us this     morning, bringing     with
him  a Captain Lutyens, an     amateur artist of such
excellence that Marochetti has advised him to quit
the army and take to painting as a profession; and
I think that he will do so. We talked of the present
French   school.   Marochetti surprised    me by not
admitting De la Roche or Scheffer to be great
painters.
Marochetti.-They    were both    of them    men   of
great talent and industry, and having taken to painting, they succeeded; but they would have done anything else as well, and many things better. They
had that which can be attained by labour —such as
* Baron Charles Marochetti, the well-known sculptor, was
born in 1805 at Turin, of naturalised French parents.  He
studied and resided in France until the Revolution of 1848, when
he came over to England and obtained great success. The statue
of Richard Coeur de Lion in front of the Houses of Parliament is
by him, as well as the altar-piece in the Church of La Madeleine
in Paris. His chef-d'oezvre is the statue of Emmanuel Philibert at
Turin. He died in December, 1867.-ED.




1861.]   FRENCH AND ENGLISH PAINTERS.


323


accuracy of outline, proportion, perspective; and
they had what is given by intelligence. Each of
them conceives well, and represents well his story.
Scheffer's Mignon tells her whole history. But the
power of colouring is not to be got by labour or by
by imitation. It is a gift from Nature to those whom
she intends to be painters, and neither De la Roche
nor Scheffer had it.
Senior. —Whom   do you put at the head of the
French school?
Marocietti.-Delacroix, and perhaps Ingres and
Meissonnier.
Senior. —And whom at the head of the English?
Marochetti.-Landseer and Watts.   Landseer I
put first, because, though his line is not the highest,
he has attained the highest rank in it, and because
he owes so little to others. If Watts had not seen
the great Italian painters, he would not have been
what he is. If neither Rubens, nor Paul Potter, nor
Schnyders, had lived, Landseer would probably have
painted as well as he does. Landseer borrows nothing
from  them, indeed has no motive to borrow from
them, for they have nothing so good as what is his
own.
Watts has taken much from     his great predecessors, and great as he is, has not equalled, or
nearly equalled them.  In his best works there is
always something wanting. In his portrait, for instance, of Miss S —, an admirable picture-perhaps
the best that he ever painted-the colouring is de



324


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


fective.  It is too flat, and  the figure is too
thin. He is not fond of portrait-painting, but he
would be unwise if he were to give it up. It is
necessary both to keep him from mannerism and to
keep him from deviating, in search of beauty, from
real nature. At one time he painted much without
models, and his figures, as you may see on the walls
of Lord Somers' house in Carlton Terrace, lost reality
and individuality.  But with all his faults he is
really a great painter-the greatest that you have
had since Gainsborough and Sir Joshua.
Senior. —Do you not rank Callcott and Stanfield
high?
Marochetti.- Callcott is a pretty painter of stilllife, but he is feeble. He will scarcely live. Stanfield
belongs to the French school of landscape-painters,
and there are several that are superior to him-Gudin,
for instance.
Senior.-What do you say of Martin?
Marochetti.-That he is a man of genius, ruined
by mannerism, and by neglect of the details of his
art. He never took the pains necessary to know
how to paint the human figure.  He is a great master
of perspective.  He is a great architect of the
Egyptian School.   His imagination revels in miles
of colonnades, and sphinxes, and colossi. The boldness, the originality, the vastness, and the real merit
of his Belshazzar's Feast, delighted, and almost
awed, the spectators.  But when it was found that
every Martin resembled every other Martin, and re



1861.]


BOIS CERY.


325


sembled nothing else, they ceased to interest.  They
came to be considered as tricks, as is the usual
result of mannerism when pushed, as Martin's was,
to its utmost extent.
September 3rd.-We] breakfasted with the Duvergiers at Bois Cery. Lausanne is placed at about
the centre of the Jorat, a sort of Appennine,
which rises above Vevay, and runs in a westerly
direction towards the Jura, which it joins at Sarras,
above Cosonay. Its ridge divides the waters which
fall into the Mediterranean from those which fall into
the Atlantic-those which flow down its northern
side reach the Lake of Neufchatel, and thence the
Rhine: those which flow down from its southern side
going by the lake of Geneva into the Rhone. When
I was in this country some years ago, I was shown,
I think near Cosonay, a spring, whose waters flowed
out of the well-head which they had filled in different directions-about one-half into the Mediterranean, the other half into the Atlantic.
Bois Cery is situated on the side of the Jorat,
seven or eight hundred feet above the lake, and
perhaps three hundred feet below the ridge of the
Jorat, immediately above it.  The house covers a
good deal of ground, and is cut up into small rooms.
A   covered portico-the charming   appendage   to
almost every Swiss house-runs round it.
The whole property, containing about fifty
acres, cost 40001. The land is let off for 801. a-year.




326


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


As the house cannot be worth more than 10001.,
Duvergier gets about two and a half per cent for his
investment.
Land is very dear. M. de St. Julien, a Lausanne
friend, told us that three per cent was the beau ideal
of an investment, and that two and a half per cent
was more common.
Madame Duvergier.-We were in Switzerland in
the summer of 1848. The instability of the Republic
alarmed us. If the Rouges had seized the power,
and more than once the chances seemed to be in their
favour, our property, and perhaps our lives, would
have been in danger.
This place, very bad as a house, but capable of
holding us, was to be sold, and we bought it as a
retreat in a neutral territory, and as we have it, we
spend a few weeks here every other year. Thirty
years ago it stood in a forest; now the greater part
of the wood has been cut, and the land reclaimed,
but there are still some shady walks, and the views
around are splendid.
After breakfast we drove to Vernant, a chateau
with a large park belonging to M. de Blonay; we
left our carriages near the chateau, and walked over
a great part of the park.  It is large. Duvergier,
Target, and I walked for about a mile in it, but
Madame Target, the young Duvergiers, and my
daughter, who left us, must have walked three or
four, for they were absent at least two hours.




1861.]  MADAME DE REMUSAT'S JOURNAL.


327


It is about 300 feet lower on the Jorat than
Bois  Cery.   The land    is finely  tossed  about,
scooped into deep glens, well timbered, and intersected by rapid streams. Every knoll or promontory commands a view of the lake and the
Alps.    The Blonays are the     Montmorencys     of
Switzerland. Our conversation, at first occupied
by the scenery, soon turned to French politics.
We began by discussing the chances of the Imperial
dynasty.*
Target.,-If this man lives, and retains his power
for a dozen years longer, the little prince may succeed.
But no one believes in a regency. Whom could they
take?  The Empress would be impossible.      Prince
Napoleon has talents, and, in political matters,
boldness; but the army would not tolerate him, or
even the peasantry.
The conversation passed to the first Napoleon.
Duvergier.-Did Remusat ever mention to you
his mother's journal?t
Senior.-No.
Duvergier.-It is a most curious record, but full
of such details affecting living persons that it cannot
be published for many years.     Her husband, Remusat's father, was high in Napoleon's household.
" The first part of this conversation relates to so many persons
now living, that I am obliged reluctantly to omit it.-ED.
t This Journal has lately been published.-ED.




328


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


As a specimen, I will tell you the history of the first
meeting of Napoleon and the Countess Walewska.
When Napoleon was on his way to Warsaw, he
wrote to Duroc, who managed those things for him,
and desired a house to be taken for him outside of the
town, and a Polonaise to be provided, jeune, intelligente, et d'une des premieres families.
There was some difficulty about the last article,
but a lady was found, intelligent and young, and
recently married to an old man.
As soon as he arrived, he asked if they had got
the Polonaise.
' Yes,' he was answered.
' Bien,' he said, 4 qu'elle m'attende.'
The rest of the story she thus related to Madame
de Remusat.
6 Several hours passed, and at last the Emperor
entered the room. He came straight to me, and
said,'" Is it true, Madame, that you belong to one of
the first families?"
' Yes," I said.
'On which he sat down to the writing-table, and
questioned me for more than two hours as to all the
Warsaw people, their connexions, their characters,
and their political opinions, and filled page after page
with notes of my answers.'
Senior.-What became of Madame?
Duvergier.-Her Polish husband died, and she
married again, and lived for many years, and was




1861.]  EXPENSE OF LIVING AT LAUSANNE.


329


very well received in society. Jupiter savait dorer la
pillule.
Thursday, September 5th.-We breakfasted at La
Grangette, the country-house of the Comte de St.
Julien, and met there Comte de la Motte, a Swiss who
has been long in the Prussian service, and the Duvergiers and Targets.
Though about 700 feet above the Lake, and therefore nearly 2000 feet above the sea, the St. Juliens
pass the winter at La Grangette. There is seldom,
they say, snow for any long time, and never fog, and
the Jorat screens them from the Bise. The neighbourhood  of Geneva is much colder,-the Bise
there, blowing down the whole lake, is frightful.
Mrs. Marcet never ventured to pass the winter at
Malagny.
M. de la Motte had often been at Grafenburg, once for more than six months.   He spoke
very highly of Priessnitz, to whom he thinks he owes
his life. The St. Juliens are remarkably pleasing,
with all the polish, the ease, and the simplicity of the
ancien re'gime. They are Parisians by birth, though
long settled here.
In the evening we called on M. Haldimand.
We talked of the expense of living near Lausanne.
Haldimand.-You could not comfortably spend
more than 15001. a-year. I doubt whether Mrs.




330


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Marcet spent that, though she had a fine place, received much, and had an apartment in Geneva in the
winter.  I doubt whether Frank Marcet, living in
what the Swiss call very loud style, spends 12001.
a-year.
Senior.-Of course you leave out the rent of
Malagny?
Haldimand.-Of course I do. But that rent cannot be put down at more than 2001. a-year. I have a
charming place, called 'L'Elysee,' close to my own,
which I let to M. de Cerjat for 1501. a-year. He has
four daughters, keeps horses and carriages, and is one
of our rich men, and I do not think that he spends
10001. a-year, after paying his rent.
Senior.-How do you account for this cheapness
of living? for general prices cannot be lower than in
England.
Haldimand.-The price of services is rather less.
You pay your physician 8s. for a single visit, and
much less if, as I do, you employ him by the year.
But the great difference is the absence of ostentation.
I know that M. de --  's daughters, who are held to
be well dressed, have 251. a-piece for their dress. In
England you spend your money for the benefit of
others. Here you spend it all on yourself.
Senior.-Not you, for Denantou belongs quite as
much to the public as it does to you.
Ilaldimand.-It really belongs to the Lausanne
public as much as Kensington Gardens belongs to the
people of Kensington. My only privileges are, that I




1861.]  SAVOY IS FRENCH IN APPEARANCE.


331


pay for keeping it up, and that I have the satisfaction
of thinking that it is mine-that I can plant, and cut
openings, and improve it as I like. But the use of it
which I give to the public costs me nothing.  They
do no damage, and I should spend just as much in
keeping it up-and with much less pleasure-if no
one else ever entered it.
Friday, September 6th.-We crossed the lake in
a steamer, going first to Thonon, a curious old
Savoy town, where we had some delicious water from
a natural fountain which rises in the kitchen of the
hotel, then driving about seven miles along the side
of the lake to Evian, whence a steamer took us back
to Ouchy in the evening.
The Savoy side of the lake is far more pleasing
than the Swiss side. Looking north it is less devoted
to vine-culture, and the vines are treated on the
Italian, not on the French system. They hang in
festoons over dry trees, planted for the purpose,
twenty or thirty feet high. There is a great deal of
fine timber, not massed, as is usually the case in
France and in the Pays de Vaud, in closely packed
groves of long, branchless poles, but scattered over
the fields and spreading its branches widely in search
of air and sun. There is little, however, of Swiss
neatness or prosperity. The towns are dirty, and the
pretty villages, villas, and chalets are wanting.
Savoy is French, not Swiss, in appearance and
population.




332


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Evian has a fine hotel, about 300 feet up the
mountain, and a mineral water, said to be very useful
in diseases of the bladder, but with no perceptible
peculiarities. It is very bright and soft, pleasant to
drink, and charming to bathe in.    The inhabitants
use it for all purposes. A pleasing, intelligent young
American lady, a Miss Curtis, of Boston, whose family
are living in the Beaurivage Hotel, joined us.
At Evian we found the Marquis Pallavicini, of
Milan, the pro-dictator of the last Neapolitan revolution, under whose rule the popular vote for annexation to the kingdom of Italy was taken.
His earlier political life was less successful. He
joined in the anti-Austrian conspiracy in 1821, and
was imprisoned for fifteen years in Spielberg. For the
first two, while the trial was going on, the treatment
was tolerable, but after he had been convicted and
sentenced to carcere duro, it was severe.  He wore
irons for ten years.
I asked what the climate was.
Pallavicini.-Not bad in itself. It is like all the
centre of Germany,-cold in winter and hot in summer: but we, the prisoners, were unhealthy in
consequence of our treatment. The Austrian Government, or rather the Emperor Francis, for he was the
real manager of Spielberg, clothed us, but insufficiently; we were not allowed gloves or great-coats.
In winter we kept ourselves warm indoors, as we had
stoves, but when we went into the open air for our
hour's exercise, we were miserably cold; and in




1861.]


PRISONERS AT SPIELBERG.


333


summer our ill-ventilated cells were oppressively
hot.
One merit I must concede to the Austrians,-they
took good care of our property. Mine was given
over to the management of my mother, and when
I was released I found it greatly improved. One
of our worst sufferings was the absence of information. For fifteen years I had no news respecting my
family.
Senior.-Who were your companions?
Pallavicini.-For the first two years a malefactor;
afterwards, state prisoners. I should have preferred
solitude to the presence of a brute, which my first
fellow-prisoner was; but I was very glad to have
with me an educated man.
Senior.-You had no books, or writing materials?
Pallavicini.-None, lawfully; but I managed to
get hold of a German and an English vocabulary.
Partly as an exercise, and partly because I feared to
lose my books, I cut all the important words with a
nail on my wall, and in fact I taught myself to read
tolerably, both in English and German, though of
course my pronunciation, acquired only by the eye, is
unintelligible to any one but myself. Then I tried to
recollect all that I had read, and above all, I built
castles in the air.
Senior.-Did you ever fancy that you would one
day be sitting on this fine terrace, overlooking the
lake, and talking over with an Englishman the prospects of the kingdom of Italy?




334


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Pallavicini.-Never; my boldest conjectures, even
my most ardent hopes, never approached the reality.
All that I hoped for was a kingdom of Upper Italy,
composed of Piedmont, Lombardy, and Venetia, and
perhaps of Parma and Modena, excluding the Austrian
influence from the south, and liberalising, by its example, Tuscany, the States of the Church, and Naples.
That these three great independent countries would
be merged in the kingdom of Italy, I never thought
possible.
Senior.-And do you believe now that the union
will be permanent?
Pallavicini.-I do,-at least as long as the Austrians hold Venetia, Tuscany, Modena, and Parma
may be relied on; and so, I think, may those portions of the States of the Church which formed part
of the old Viceroyalty of Italy. Even Naples,
unless very great mistakes are made, will in
time be reconciled to the loss of its individual
nationality.
The plebiscite for annexation to the kingdom of
Italy received 1,300,000 favourable votes, and only
10,000 adverse ones; and I can assure you that it was
fairly taken. When you deduct from 6,000,000 of
Neapolitans, 3,000,000 for women, and deduct further
the children and the very old, you will find that
1,300,000 is a considerable majority of the active
citizens. And I repeat that the vote was fairly taken
-neither solicitations nor threats were used. In fact,
the only persons opposed to the Union are the priests,




1861.]


THE TWO CAVOURS.


335


who are ignorant and devoted to the Pope-and the
disbanded soldiers.
The reactionary party in Europe complains that
those opposed to the Union are called 'brigands.'
It calls their opposition 'a civil war,' and claims for
them belligerent rights. But, in fact, the greater part
of them, indeed almost all, except the priests, are
brigands. They are men without political knowledge
or political convictions, whose motives are the hope of
plunder, and the bribes of the dethroned king.  A
strong proof that the Union is popular with the
educated portion of the people is, that the Government ventures to employ the National Guards against
the brigands, or, if I must not use that term, against
the insurgents.
We talked of the two Cavours.
Pallavicini.-Of course they cannot be compared
as to their powers. But Gustave de Cavour is not to
be spoken of lightly. He is a man of great learning
and of perfect honesty. You will be surprised, perhaps, when I say that I think him an honester
politician than Camille. Camille's policy was not
Italian but Piedmontese. He wished to make Piedmont the nucleus of a great kingdom. For that
purpose it was necessary to give freedom to a
portion of Italy; and he was glad to do so. But
it was not his primary object. We all of us preferred Italy to Piedmont. He preferred Piedmont
to Italy.




336


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


Senior.-What are the feelings of the Italians
towards Louis Napoleon?
Pallavicini.-Such as are the feelings of those who
believe in magic towards a magician. We feel that
he has enormous power: that from time to time he
exercises that power by acts deeply affecting our
welfare.  But we cannot discover what are his
motives. All that we can decidedly say is, that
many of those which most influence other men are
not among them. He obviously has no veracity,
no honour, he is bound by no engagements. He
seems to have no benevolence.     He insults and
betrays all whom he protects. He has some malignity, though it does not appear to be very strong.
We suspect that intense selfishness is at the bottom
of his character, but that does not much assist us in
conjecturing his future conduct, since it is difficult to
say what form his selfishness will take-whether it
will be vanity, or ambition, or fear, or the mere love
of excitement. The result is, that we thoroughly
distrust him, that we feel no gratitude for the
immense services which he has rendered to us,
since we do not believe that our welfare was among
his objects, that we look on him as an ill-tamed
savage to be perpetually watched, and to be kept
in order only by his fears. We believe that it is
through his fears that we have got out of him what
we have got; and that it is by working on those fears,
by constantly holding out to him the spectre of Orsini,
that we shall get from him what more we want.




1861.]  PROSPECTS OF ITALY AND AMERICA.


337


Here our visit was cut short by a summons from
the boat, and we said good-bye to the Marquis.*
Miss Curtis.-There was something painful, as
well as interesting in this conversation. I was
thinking all the time how different would have
been my feelings and those of the Marquis if we
had met four years ago. Then he would have
been looking at the prospects of his country with
anxiety, almost with despondency: I should have
been looking at those of mine with nothing but
hope and confidence.   In that short interval all
has been changed. It is his turn now to be hopeful,
and proud, and happy. It is mine to endeavour
to turn my thoughts away from     the misery and
degradation of my country, to foresee nothing but
calamity during the progress of this frightful contest,
and nothing but calamity at its termination.
September 7th.-I had a long conversation this
morning with Dr. Ricordon on the Lausanne Penitentiary.
Ricordon.-We have tried in our prison four
different systems.  Under the first, which lasted
from 1803 to 1826, the prisoners were divided into
two classes, according to their offences. Each class
lived together and worked together. Silence was
insisted on during their work, but not in their
sleeping rooms, in which as many as sixteen were
" This was the General Pallavicini who took Garibaldi prisoner
at Aspromonte,-ED.
VOL. I.                             Z




338


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


together. Some were employed out of doors in the
streets and the fields. The mortality was about four
and a half per cent per annum, the recommittals were
above fourteen per cent per annum.   During the
whole eighteen years there was only one case of
madness, and the probability is that the prisoner was
mad when she committed the crime. She had killed
her husband in the presence of a neighbour whom she
had called apparently as a witness.
There was no reformation. This want led to
the adoption of the second system, that of cellular
imprisonment. A large building was erected, provided with 104 cells, each ten feet long, seven wide,
and nine high, containing, besides the necessary
furniture, tools for shoemaking, joiner's work, and
spinning, and also religious books. The prisoners
worked in common, part of their work being the
cultivation of the land round the prison, and
received when they were discharged a portion of
the value of their work. They were not allowed to
speak, either during meals or at work; but might
converse during about two hours a-day, when
allowed to walk in the prison-yard. The punishments were confinement in the cell, or in aggravated
cases in a dark dungeon. At first all seemed to go
on well, but in two or three years symptoms of failure
showed themselves. The recommittals rose from fourteen per cent to fifteen. There was no reformation,
but a degree of insubordination which rose to mutiny.
There was much sickness, but scarcely any increase




1861.]


FOUR PRISON SYSTEMS.


339


of mortality. During eight years there were only
two cases of madness.
The failure of these attempts introduced a third
system in 1834, which lasted about eight years.
All conversation and all communication between
the prisoners at any time, or under any circumstances, by word, by sign, even by a smile of
recognition, was absolutely forbidden. The time for
walking in the yards was reduced to one hour per
day. Those who had been recommitted were not
allowed to work in common. The punishments were
confinement in the prisoner's own cell, in a light
prison, and in a dark prison. In all these confinements the diet was bread and water for two days
out of three. The result of the change during eight
years was, as to mortality, little alteration, it was still
four and a half per cent. Recommittals rose from
fifteen to twenty-one per cent, and the cases of
madness, of which there had been only three during
the previous thirty-one years, rose in the eight subsequent years to thirty-one.
Senior. —What was the prevalent form of madness?
Ricordon.-What we call hallucinations.     The
patient is disturbed by voices.  He hears jailors
consulting how they shall poison him, or preparing
to beat him. As the disorder of his brain increases,
he thinks that he sees them.    The visions which
tormented the hermits of early Christianity-the saints
of the Thebaide-with which the painters of St. An



340


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


tony have amused themselves, were reproduced among
our prisoners, changing only devils into gens d'armes.
These, however, were the more active-minded prisoners. The dull fell into torpor, ending in idiotcy.
Senior.-I suppose that the prisoners were allowed
to converse with the officers of the prison, and with
the chaplain?
Ricordon.-Yes; but with the officers only to
make complaints which led to nothing. As for the
chaplain, the majority of the prisoners despise his
spiritual and moral exhortations, and hate him
because they believe that he has influence enough
to improve their situation and refuses to exert it.
Of course it is his duty to explain to them the
wickedness of their offences and the justice of
punishment.   But when the mind is becoming
disordered this always fails. The prisoner generally
maintains that he is innocent, and raves against the
folly or the malevolence of his judges; or, if he
admits that he committed the act, refuses to admit
that it was blameable.
Senior.-Were there many cases of religious madness?
Ricordon.-Not many. The persons subject to
that sort of madness are to be found in convents,
not in prisons. I remember, however, the case of a
German from Baden, who had stabbed a man in a
quarrel. He was penitent from the beginning, and
read scarcely anything except the New Testament.
After he had been about six months in prison, he




1861.]    SUCCESS OF THE LAST SYSTEM.


341


told that us Jesus Christ appeared to him at night,
forbade him to work, because his excellence as a
workman   excited  his pride  and promised him
pardon if he would macerate his body. He accordingly refused to drink wine, or to consume more
than a small portion of his rations, and tried even to
do without sleep. He was removed to a lunatic
asylum.
Senior. —How do you account for the number of
recommittals under the severe system?
Ricordon.-I can account for it only by supposing
that that system so much Wveakened the mind, that
the convicts when restored to the world were often
unfit for its struggles, and unable to resist its
temptations. Certainly there was nothing attractive
in the severe system, and yet the recommittals
increased.
Senior. —And what are the peculiarities of your
present system?
Ricordon.-One is that more time is allowed for
recreation out-of-doors, and that during that time
the prisoners are allowed to converse.  Secondly,
instead of practically limiting the work of prisoners
to sedentary employments, such as weaving and
shoemaking, we make them labour in the fields or
in businesses which exercise the muscles, such as
carpentering, stone-cutting, and cleaving firewood.
Thirdly, we classify them, and keep the classes apart.
Those who have been recommitted are always the
most mischievous inmates of a prison. They keep




342


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


up the tradition of vice and crime. We allow them
to have no intercourse with the others.        The other
classes are distinguished at first by the nature of
their sentences and afterwards by their conduct.
I cannot give you the present statistics of the
prison, but I know that madness has almost disappeared, and that recommittals are less frequent.*
Dr. Alderson of London is here. He has been
* Malvern, October 5th, 1861.-I have just received a letter from
Dr. Ricordon, inclosing one from M. Clavel, Controller of the Prison.
He states that in 1843 enforced solitude was reduced to a period of
three months, and that in 1844 it was abolished, except that the
prisoners are alone in their cells during meal-times, the night, and
on Sundays, except during divine service and exercise. The diet
was at the same time changed, cafe au lait being given every day
for breakfast, fish being frequently substituted for boiled beef, and
more, and more varied, vegetables supplied. On the slightest
appearance of mental disease the patient is removed to the infirmary, in which conversation is permitted. Silence is still kept
during work. The result has been that insanity has become rare,
and is quickly cured. There have been only six cases during the
last six years, out of 886 prisoners, or about one in 147. This,
compared with the insanity of the external world, is large. But it
must be recollected, first, that insanity is common in the Pays de
Vaud. It is probably connected with cretinism, which is prevalent throughout Switzerland; and secondly, that a large proportion
of the prisoners have brains damaged by intemperance and minds
embittered by a long and unsuccessful warfare against society.
And these, perhaps, are reasons for thinking that in the Penitentiary of Lausanne the experiment of solitary imprisonment was
not fairly tried.-N. W. SENIOR.




1861.]


RECOLLECTIONS OF OUCHY.


343


kind enough to meet Dr. Ricordon this evening in
consultation, and they recommend me to give up all
our intended visits in Switzerland and in France, to
return to England, and to use the water-cure of
Malvern. We quit Ouchy therefore to-morrow.
We have spent our last afternoon in driving to
the Signal, a promontory of the Jorat just above
Lausanne. As we were ordered to do, we saw the
sun set. We were disappointed. The mountain
view is not finer than that from M. Haldimand's
garden, and the home view is not very superior to
that from La Grangette. But it has one fine feature;
it stands at the extremity of the Forest of Suava
Bellin (Sylva Bellini), which was itself a part of
the vast Hercynian forest. Some magnificent oaks
form its entrance from the Signal. A happy accident
has allowed them to stand and grow apart from one
another. Farther on the forest degenerates into the
mass of boughless poles which the French and the
Swiss encourage.
My recollections of Ouchy are not pleasant.
There are fine walks around Lausanne, but they are
distant from Ouchy. I was not strong enough to
do more than dawdle about M. Haldimand's grounds,
which are exquisitely beautiful but small.
The inn is not well managed; the number of
servants is far too small for that of the guests.
They are generally young Germans, speaking and
understanding little French, and less English. This
has been an unusually hot and dry summer; the sun




344


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


and the reflection from the Lake have baked the
house. Using every means to exclude the sun and
even the light, we could not reduce the temperature
of our rooms below 78~; it often rose even in darkness above 80~. The great size of the house, however, had one advantage; there were never less than
three or four families of our acquaintances in it. My
illness prevented our going much into any rooms
except our own and those of our friends, but we
were told that there was great fun in the common
drawing-room. The heroine of it was an American
young lady, very pretty and perfectly unrestrained.
Miss Curtis, our Boston acquaintance, said that the
training of this heroine had been the very worst
possible, since she had been born in a Georgian
plantation, educated in a New York boarding-school,
and brought out in Paris.
Senior. —I can easily believe that a Georgian
plantation and a New York seminary are bad schools,
but Paris is not; or rather its faults are only negative.
French girls seem to me to be too much kept back.
They dance a little, not nearly so much as the
married women; they seldom dine out, and when
they do you scarcely hear their voices.    Now
Miss Z.'s faults are all positive; she is in a constant
state of representation, always showing off her beauty
-for which nature has done something and art
more-her talents and her originality.
Miss Curtis.-The world in which Miss Z. came
out though Parisian was not French; it was the




1861.]


JOURNEY HOME.


345


great American society of Paris. Rich, idle, frivolous, vain, and differing little except by its idleness
from that of New York or Philadelphia. It contains
few English and few French, and is governed, like
the higher society on the other side of the Atlantic,
by the young people. You will admit, I think, that
it is not likely to be a good school.
If the weather be tolerable to-morrow we steam
to Geneva: but this morning it blew a hurricane.
The lake broke over our little pier, fluctibus et
frermitu marino. The boat had few passengers, and
could not take them up at the pier-head; in such
weather sea-sickness is common on the lake.
Dijon, September 9th.-Yesterday was fine, and
we had a splendid voyage down the lake. M. De la
Rive met us at the Metropole, the new great inn of
Geneva. He tantalised us by telling us of the people
whom we should have met if we had been able to
pay him our promised visit. We reached Geneva
at eleven and started at three for Lyons. I was
struck still more than before by the wonderful beauty
of the road from Geneva to Amberieux. We did
not leave it till seven in the evening, so that for the
last hour and half while we were in shade the forests
or cliffs of the mountains above us were in bright
evening sunshine.
We slept at the Grand Hotel de Lyon, a new
and very good hotel with baths on every floor.




346


CONVERSATIONS.


[1861.


At about twelve this morning we reached Dijon,
and found the Hotel du Parc good. The churches
of Dijon appeared to me inferior to my recollection
of them, and still more inferior to Murray's estimate.
St. Michael's I thought overcharged, heavy, and
barbarous, the Cathedral poor, and Notre Dame
good, but not peculiarly interesting.  The tombs,
however, of Philippe le Hardi and Jean sans peur
are equal to any praise. The figures justify Marochetti's admiration of painted statuary. The colouring, while it gives them life, does not diminish the
dignity almost amounting to severity of their expression. There is something bold and very effectual
in the interposition of the grand black marble slabs
between the white marble cloister below and the
recumbent figures above. They are among the very
finest specimens of the monumental art of the
fifteenth century.
There are few good pictures in the Musee; the
nine or ten worst are marked ' Donne par l'Empereur
Napoleon III.'
Paris, September 10th.-We left Dijon at twelve
at night and reached Paris at seven the next
morning, and on the 11th returned to England.
END OF VOL. I.


LONDON:
Printed by STRANGEWAYS & SONS, Tower Street, Upper St. Martin's Lane.














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