THE LIBRARY OF THE 
 UNIVERSITY OF 
 NORTH CAROLINA 
 
 THE COLLECTION OF 
 NORTH CAROLINIANA 
 
 ENDOWED BY 
 
 JOHN SPRUNT HILL 
 CLASS OF 1889 
 
 C326 
 
 U58s Part 1 
 
FOR USE ONLY IN 
 
 THE NORTH CAROLINA COLLECTION 
 
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 46th Congress, 
 2d Session. 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 j Report 
 ( No. G93, 
 
 REPORT AND TESTIMONY 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 OF THE 
 
 UNITED STATES SENATE 
 
 TO INVESTIGATE THE CAUSES OF 
 
 THE REMOVAL OF THE NEGROES FROM THE SOUTHERN 
 STATES TO THE NORTHERN STATES. 
 
 IN THREE PARTS. 
 
 PART I . 
 
 WASHINGTON: 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING GFFICEo 
 
 1SS0. 
 
COMMITTEE. 
 
 DANIEL W. YOORHEES, Chairman, 
 
 ZEBULON B. VANCE, 
 
 GEORGE H. PENDLETON, 
 WILLIAM WINDOM, 
 
 HENRY W. BLAIR. 
 
60 6 $ 
 
 4Gth Congress, ) SENATE. 
 
 2 d Session -. f 
 
 Eeport 
 No. G93. 
 
 IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED 
 
 STATES. 
 
 June 1, 1880.—Ordered to be printed. 
 
 Mr. Vance, from the Committee to Investigate the Causes which have 
 led to the Emigration of Negroes from the Southern to Northern 
 States, submitted the following 
 
 REPORT: 
 
 The Select Committee , appointed by the Senate to investigate the causes which 
 have led to the migration of the negroes from the Southern States to the 
 Northern States , having duly considered the same , beg leave to submit the 
 following report: 
 
 On the ISth day of December, 1879, the Senate passed the following 
 resolution: 
 
 Whereas large numbers of negroes from the Southern States are emigrating to the 
 Northern States ; and 
 
 Whereas it is currently alleged that they are induced to do so by the unjust and 
 •cruel conduct of their white fellow-citizens towards them in the South, and by the 
 denial or abridgment of their personal and political rights and privileges: There 
 fore, 
 
 Be it resolved, That a committee of five members of this body be appointed by its 
 presiding officer, whnse duty it shall be to investigate the causes which have led to 
 the aforesaid emigration, and to report the same to the Senate; and said committee 
 shall have power to send for persons and papers, and to sit at any time. 
 
 In obedience to this resolution the committee proceeded to take testi¬ 
 mony on the 19th day of January, and continuing from time to time until 
 153 witnesses had been examined, embracing persons from the States 
 of North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, 
 Missouri, Kansas, and Indiana. Much of this testimony is of such a 
 character as would not be received in a court of justice, being hearsay, 
 the opinions of witnesses, &c., but we received it with a view to ascer¬ 
 taining, if possible, the real state of facts in regard to the condition of 
 the Southern colored people, their opinions and feelings, and the feelings 
 and opinions of their white neighbors. We think it clearly established 
 from the testimony that the following may be said to be the causes 
 which have induced this migration of the colored people from various 
 portions of the South to Northern States, chiefly to Kansas and Indiana: 
 That from North Carolina, the State to which we first directed our at¬ 
 tention, was undoubtedly induced in a great degree by Northern politi¬ 
 cians, and by negro leaders in their employ, and in the employ of rail¬ 
 road lines. 
 
 Examining particularly into the condition of the colored men in that 
 State, it was disclosed by the testimony of whites and blacks, Kepub- 
 licans and Democrats, that the causes of discontent among those people 
 could not have arisen from any deprivation of their political rights or 
 any hardship in their condition. A minute examination into their 
 
IV 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 situation shows that the average rate of* wages, according to the age 
 and strength of the hand for field labor, was from eight to fifteen dollars 
 per month, including board, and house to live in, garden and truck 
 patches around the house, fire-wood, and certain other privileges, all 
 rent free. 
 
 These, added to the extra labor which could be earned by hands dur¬ 
 ing the season of gathering turpentine and resin, or of* picking cotton, 
 made the general average of compensation for labor in that State quite 
 equal to if not better than in any Northern State to which these people 
 were going, to say nothing of the climate of North Carolina, which was 
 infinitely better adapted to them. 
 
 The closest scrutiny could detect no outrage or violence inflicted upon 
 their political rights in North Carolina for many years past. They all 
 testified that they voted freely ; that their votes were counted fairly; 
 that no impropei influence whatsoever was exerted over them ; and many 
 were acquiring real estate, and were enjoying the same privileges of 
 education for tlieir children, precisely, that the whites were enjoying. 
 
 It was also disclosed by the testimony that there existed aid societies 
 in the city of Washington, in the city of Topeka, Ivans., Indianapolis, 
 and elsewhere throughout the West, whose avowed object was to fur¬ 
 nish aid to colored men migrating to the West and North ; and notwith¬ 
 standing that the agents and members of these societies generally 
 disclaimed that it was tlieir intention to induce any colored men to leave 
 their homes, but only to aid in taking care of* them after they had ar¬ 
 rived, yet it was established undeniably, not only that the effect of these 
 societies and of the aid extended by them operated to cause the exodus 
 originally, but that they stimulated it directly by publishing and dis¬ 
 tributing among the colored men circulars artfully designed and calcu¬ 
 lated to stir up discontent. Every single member, agent, friend, or sym¬ 
 pathizer with these societies and their purposes were ascertained to 
 belong to the Republican party, and generally to be active members 
 thereof. Some of the circulars contained the grossest misrepresenta¬ 
 tion of facts, and in almost all cases the immigrants expected large aid 
 from the government of clothes, or land, or money, or free transporta¬ 
 tion, or something of that kind. Hundreds of* them, on given days at 
 various points in the South, crowded to the depots or to the steamboat 
 landings upon a rumor that free transportation was to be furnished to 
 all who would go. It was also disclosed by the testimony on the part of 
 some very candid and intelligent witnesses that their object in pro¬ 
 moting this exodus of the colored people was purely political. They 
 thought it would be well to remove a sufficient number of blacks from 
 the South, where their votes could not be made to tell, into close States 
 in the North, and thus turn the scale in favor of the Eepublican party. 
 
 Wages, rents, method of cropping on shares, &e., were inquired into 
 in all of* the Southern States mentioned, and the fact ascertained that 
 the aggregate was about the same as in North Carolina. In most of 
 the Southern States where wages were higher than in North Carolina 
 expenses were also higher, so that the aggregate, as before stated, was 
 about the same. 
 
 One cause of complaint alleged as a reason for this exodus of the 
 colored people from the South was their mistreatment in tlie courts of 
 justice. Directing our attention to this the committee have ascertained 
 that in many of the districts of the South the courts were under entire 
 Republican control—judges, prosecuting attorneys, sheriffs, &e., and 
 that there were generally as many complaints from districts thus con¬ 
 trolled as there were from districts which were under the control of the 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 y 
 
 Democratic officials; and that the whole of the complaints taken together 
 might be said to be such as are generally made by the ignorant who fail 
 to receive in courts what they think is justice. 
 
 Your committee found no State or county in the South, into which this 
 investigation extended, where colored men were excluded from juries 
 either in theory or in practice; they found no county or district in the 
 South where they were excluded, either in theory or practice, from their 
 share in the management of county affairs and of the control of county 
 government. On the contrary, whenever their votes were in a majority 
 we found that the officers were most generally divided among the black 
 people, or among white people of their choice. Frequently we found 
 the schools to be controlled by them, especially that portion of the school 
 fund which was allotted to their race, and the complaints which had 
 been so often made of excessive punishment of the blacks by the courts 
 as compared with the whites, upon investigation in nearly all cases, 
 proved to be either unfounded in fact or that if there was an apparent 
 excess of punishment of a black man the cause was ascertained to be in 
 the nature of the crime with which he was charged, or the attendant cir¬ 
 cumstances. 
 
 The educational advantages in the South, the committee regret to say, 
 were found to be insufficient, and far inferior to those of most of the 
 States of the North, but such as they were we found in every case that 
 the blacks had precisely the same advantages that the whites enjoyed; 
 that the school fund was divided among them according to numbers; 
 that their teachers were quite as good, and chosen with as much care; 
 that their schools existed as many months in the year; in short, the 
 same facilities were afforded to the blacks as were to the whites in this 
 respect; and that these schools were generally supported by the volun¬ 
 tary taxation imposed by the legislatures composed ot white men, levied 
 upon their own property for the common benefit. 
 
 With regard to political outrages which have formed the staple of 
 complaint for many years against the people ot the South, your com¬ 
 mittee diligently inquired, and have to report that they found nothing 
 or almost nothing new. Many old stories were revived and dwelt upon 
 by zealous witnesses, but very few indeed ventured to say that any con¬ 
 siderable violence or outrage had been exhibited toward the colored 
 people of the South within the last few years, and still fewer of all those 
 who testified upon this subject, and who were evidently anxious to make 
 the most of it, testified to anything as within their own knowledge. It 
 was all hearsay, and nothing but hearsay, with rare exceptions. 
 
 Many of the witnesses before us were colored politicians, men who 
 make their living by politics, and whose business it was to stir up teeling 
 between the whites and blacks; keep alive the embers of political hatred; 
 and were men of considerable intelligence, so that what they tailed 
 to set forth of outrages perpetrated against their race may be safely 
 assumed not to exist. Many, on the contrary, were intelligent, sober, 
 industrious, and respectable men, who testified to their own condition, 
 the amount of property that they had accumulated since their eman¬ 
 cipation, the comfort in which they lived, the respect with which they 
 were regarded by their white neighbors. These universally expressed 
 the opinion that all colored men who would practice equal industry and 
 sobriety could have fared equally well; and in fact their own condition 
 was ample proof of the treatment of the colored people by the whites 
 of the South, and of their opportunities to thrive, it they were so de¬ 
 termined. Some of these men owned so much as a thousand acres ot 
 real estate in the best portions of the South; many of them had tenants 
 
VI 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 of tlieir own, white men, occupying their premises and paying them 
 rent; and your committee naturally arrived at the conclusion that if 
 one black man could attain to this degree of prosperity and respectable 
 citizenship, others could, having the same capacity for business and 
 practicing the same sobriety and industry. 
 
 Your committee also directed their attention to the complaints fre¬ 
 quently made with regard to the laws passed in various States of the 
 South relating to landlord and tenant, and to the system adopted by 
 many planters for furnishing their tenants and laborers with supplies. 
 We found, upon investigation of these laws, and of the witnesses in re¬ 
 lation to their operation, that as a general rule they were urgently called 
 for by the circumstances in which the South found itself after the war. 
 The universal adoption of homestead and personal property exemption 
 laws deprived poor men of‘ credit, and the landlord class, for its own 
 protection, procured the passage of these laws giving them a lien upon 
 the crop made by the tenant until his rents and his supplies furnished 
 for the subsistence of the tenant and his family had been paid and dis¬ 
 charged; and while upon the surface these laws appeared to be hard 
 and in favor of the landlord, they were, as was actually testified by many 
 intelligent witnesses, quite as much or more in favor of the tenant, as it 
 enabled him to obtain credit, to subsist himself and his family, and to 
 make a crop without any means whatsoever but his own labor. It was 
 alleged also that in many instances landlords, or if not landlords then 
 merchants, would establish country stores for furnishing supplies to 
 laborers and tenants, and the laborer, having no money to go elsewhere 
 or take the natural advantage of competition, was forced to buy at these 
 stores at exorbitant prices. 
 
 Your committee regret to say that they found it to be frequently the 
 case that designing men, or bad and dishonest men, would take advan¬ 
 tage of the ignorance or necessity of the negroes to obtain these exorbi¬ 
 tant prices; but at the same time your committee is not aware of any 
 spot on earth where the cunning and the unscrupulous do not take ad¬ 
 vantage of the ignorant ; and cannot regard it as a sufficient cause for 
 these black people leaving their homes and going into distant States 
 and among strangers unless they had a proper assurance that the States 
 to which they were going contained no dishonest men, or men who would 
 take such advantage of them. Your committee feel bound to say, how¬ 
 ever, injustice to the planters of the South, that this abuse is not at all 
 general nor frequent; and that as a general rule while exorbitant prices 
 are exacted sometimes from men in the situation of the blacks, yet the 
 excuse for it is the risk which planter and merchant run. Should a bad 
 crop year come, should the Army worm devour the cotton, or any other 
 calamity come upon the crop, the landlord is without his rent, the store¬ 
 keeper is without his pay, and worse than all the laborer is without any 
 means of subsistence for the next year. It is hoped and believed that 
 when the heretofore disturbed condition of the people of the South set¬ 
 tles down into regularity and order, the natural laws of trade and com¬ 
 petition will assert themselves and this evil will be to a great extent 
 remedied, whilst the diffusion of education among the colored people 
 v ill enable them to keep their own accounts and hold a check upon those 
 who would act dishonestly towards them. 
 
 On the whole, your committee express the positive opinion that the 
 condition of the colored people of the South is not only as good as 
 could have been reasonably expected, but is better than if large com¬ 
 munities were transferred to a colder and more inhospitable climate 
 tin list into competition w ith a different system of labor, among strangers 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 VII 
 
 who are not accustomed to them, their ways, habits of thought and ac¬ 
 tion, their idiosyncrasies, and their feelings. While a gradual migra¬ 
 tion, such as circumstances dictate among the white races, might benefit 
 the individual black man and his family as it does those of the whites 
 we cannot but regard this wholesale attempt to transfer a people with¬ 
 out means and without intelligence, from the homes of their nativity in 
 this manner, as injurious to the people of the South, injurious to'the 
 people and the labor-system of the State where they go, and, more than 
 all, injurious to the last degree to the black people themselves. That 
 there is much in their condition to be deplored in the South no one 
 will deny; that that condition is gradually and steadily improving in 
 every respect is equally true. That there'have been clashings of the 
 races in the South, socially and politically, is never to be denied nor to 
 be wondered at; but when we come to consider the method in which 
 
 these people were freed, as the result of a bitter and desolating civil 
 war; and that for purposes of party politics these incompetent, ignorant, 
 landless, homeless people, without any qualifications of citizenship, 
 without any of the ties of property or the obligations of education, 
 were suddenly thrown into political power, and the effort was made not 
 only to place them upon an equality with their late masters, but to ab¬ 
 solutely place them in front and hold them there by legislation, by mili¬ 
 tary violence, and by every other means that could possibly be resorted 
 to; when we consider these things, no philosophical mind can behold 
 their present condition, and the present comparative state of peace and 
 amity between the two races, without wonder that their condition is as 
 good as it is. 
 
 No man can behold this extraordinary spectacle of two people at¬ 
 tempting to reconcile themselves in spite of the interference of out¬ 
 siders, and to live in harmony, to promote each other’s prosperity in 
 spite of the bitter animosities which the sudden elevation of the one 
 has engendered, without the liveliest hope that if left to themselves the 
 condition of the former subject race will still more rapidly improve, and 
 that the best results may be reasonably and fairly expected. 
 
 Your committee is further of the opinion that all the attempts of legis¬ 
 lation; that all the inflammatory appeals of politicians upon the stump 
 and through the newspapers; that the wild and misdirected philan¬ 
 thropy of certain classes of our citizens; that these aid societies, and 
 all other of the influences which are so industriously brought to bear to 
 disturb the equanimity of the colored people of the South and to make 
 them discontented with their position, are doing them a positive and 
 almost incalculable injury, to say nothing of pecuniary losses which 
 have thus been inflicted upon Southern communities. 
 
 Your committee is further of opinion that Congress having enacted 
 all the legislation for the benefit of the colored people of the South 
 which under the Constitution it can enact, and having seen that all the 
 States of the South have done the same; that by the Constitution oi 
 the United States and the constitutions of the various States these 
 peopleware placed upon a footing of perfect equality before the law, and 
 given the chance to work out their own civilization and improvement, 
 any further attempts at legislation or agitation of the subject will but 
 excite in them hopes of exterior aid that will be disappointing to them, 
 and will prevent them from working out diligently and with care their 
 own salvation; that the sooner they are taught to depend upon them¬ 
 selves, the sooner they will learn to take care ot themselves; the sooner 
 they are taught to know that their true interest is promoted In culti- 
 
'VIII 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 vating the friendship of their white neighbors instead of their enmity, 
 the sooner they will gain that friendship 5 and that friendship and har¬ 
 mony once fully attained, there is nothing to bar the way to their speedy 
 •civilization and advancement in wealth and prosperity, except such as 
 binder all people in that great work. 
 
 ]). W. YOOBIIEES. 
 
 Z. B. YANCE. 
 
 GEO. H. PENDLETON. 
 
Mr. Windom, from the Committee to Investigate the Causes which have 
 led to the Emigration of Negroes from the Southern to the Northern 
 States, submitted the following 
 
 REPORT OF THE MINORITY. 
 
 The under signed , a minority of the committee appointed- under resolution of 
 the Senate of December 15, 1879, to investigate the causes which have led 
 to the emigration of negroes from the Southern to the Northern States , 
 submit the following report: 
 
 In the month of December last a few hundred colored men, women, 
 and children, discontented with their condition in North Carolina, and 
 hoping to improve it, were emigrating to Indiana. 
 
 This movement, though utterly insignificant in comparison with the 
 vastly greater numbers which were moving from other Southern States 
 into Kansas, seemed to be considered of very much more importance, in 
 certain quarters, on account of its alleged political purposes and bearing. 
 The theory upon which the investigation was asked was that the emi¬ 
 gration into the State of Indiana was the result of a conspiracy on the 
 part of Northern leaders of the Republican party to colonize that State 
 with negroes for political purposes. The utter absurdity of this theory 
 should have been apparent to everybody, for if the Republican party, or 
 its leaders, proposed to import negroes into Indiana for political pur¬ 
 poses, why take them from North Carolina? Why import them from a 
 State where the Republicans hope and expect to carry the election, 
 when there were thousands upon thousands ready and anxious to come 
 from States certainly Democratic. Why transport them by rail at heavy 
 expense half way across the continent when they could have taken them 
 from Kentucky without any expense, or brought them up the Mississippi 
 River by steamers at merely nominal cost? Why send twenty-five 
 thousand to Kansas to swell her 40,000 Republican majority, and only 
 seven or eight hundred to Indiana? These considerations brand with 
 falsehood and folly the charge that the exodus was a political movement 
 induced by Northern partisan leaders. And yet to prove this absurd 
 proposition the committee devoted six months of hard and fruitless 
 labor, during which they examined one hundred and fifty-nine witnesses, 
 selected from all parts of the country, mainly with reference to their 
 supposed readiness to prove said theory, expended over $30,000, and 
 filled three large volumes of testimony. 
 
 The undersigned feel themselves authorized to say that there is no 
 evidence whatever even tending to sustain the charge that the Repub¬ 
 lican party, or any of its leaders, have been instrumental, either directly 
 or indirectly, in aiding or encouraging these people to come Irom their 
 homes in the South to any of the Northern States. A good deal ol com- 
 
 party. Upon inquiry, however, it was ascertained that their purposes 
 
— -:) 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 were purely charitable and had no connection whatever with any political 
 motive or movement. They were composed almost wholly of colored 
 people, and were brought into existence solely to afford temporary 
 relief to the destitute and suffering emigrants who had already come 
 into the Northern and Western States. 
 
 In the spring of 1879 thousands of colored people, unable longer to 
 endure the intolerable hardships, injustice, and suffering indicted upon 
 them by a class of Democrats in the South, had, in utter despair, fled 
 panic-stricken from their homes and sought protection among strangers- 
 in a strange land. Homeless, penniless, and in rags, these poor people 
 were thronging the wharves of Saint Louis, crowding the steamers on 
 the Mississippi River, and in pitiable destitution throwing themselves 
 upon the charity of Kansas. Thousands more were congregating along 
 the banks of the Mississippi River, hailing the passing steamers, and 
 imploring them for a passage to the land of freedom, where the rights 
 of citizens are respected and honest toil rewarded by honest compensa¬ 
 tion. The newspapers were tilled with accounts of their destitution, 
 and the very air was burdened with the cry of distress from a class of 
 American citizens flying from persecutions which they could no longer 
 endure. Their piteous tales of outrage, suffering and wrong touched 
 the hearts of the more fortunate members of their race in the North and 
 West, and aid societies, designed to afford temporary relief, and com¬ 
 posed largely, almost wholly, of colored people, were organized in Wash¬ 
 ington, Saint Louis, Topeka, and in various other places. That they were 
 organized to induce migration for political purposes, or to aid or encour¬ 
 age these people to leave their homes for any purpose, or that they 
 ever contributed one dollar to that end, is utterly untrue, and there is 
 absolutely nothing in the testimony to sustain such a charge. Their pur¬ 
 poses and objects were purely charitable. They found a race of wretched, 
 miserable people flying from oppression and wrong, and they sought to 
 relieve their distress. The refugees were hungry, and they fed them ; 
 in rags, and they clothed them; homeless and they sheltered them; des¬ 
 titute, and they found employment for them—only this and nothing 
 more. 
 
 The real origin of the exodus movement and the organizations at the 
 South which have promoted it are very clearly stated by the witnesses 
 who have been most active in regard to it. 
 
 Henry Adams, of Shreveport, Louisiana, an uneducated colored la¬ 
 borer, but a man of very unusual natural abilities, and, so far as the 
 committee could learn, entirely reliable and truthful, states that he en¬ 
 tered the United States Army in 18GG and remained in it until 18G9; 
 that when he left the Army he returned to his former home at Shreve¬ 
 port, and, finding the condition of his race intolerable, he and a number 
 of other men who had also been in the Army set themselves to work to 
 better the condition of their people. 
 
 In 1870— 
 
 He says— 
 
 a parcel of us got together and said we would organize ourselves into a committee 
 and look into affairs and see the true condition of our race, to see whether it was pos¬ 
 sible we could stay under a people who held ns in bondage or not. 
 
 That committee increased until it numbered about five hundred, and 
 Mr. Adams says: 
 
 Some of the members of the committee was ordered by the committee to go into 
 every State in the South where we had been slaves, and post one another from time 
 to time about the true condition of our race, and nothing but the truth. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 XI 
 
 In answer to the question whether they traveled over various States 
 he said: 
 
 Yes, sir ; and we worked, some of ns, worked our way from place to place and went 
 'om State to State and worked—some of them did— amongst our people, in the fields 
 verywliere, to see wliat sort of a living 0 ur people lived—whether we could live in 
 
 We continued that on 
 
 from 
 e\ 
 
 the South amongst the people that held us as* slaves or not 
 
 till 1874. 
 
 Every one paid his own expenses, except the one we sent to Louisiana and Missis¬ 
 sippi. We took money out of our pockets and sent him, and said to him you must now 
 go to work. You can’t find out anything till you get amongst them. You can talk as 
 much as you please, but you have got to go right into the field and work with them 
 and sleep with them to know all about them. 
 
 I think about one hundred or one hundred and fifty went from one place or another. 
 
 Q. What was the character of the information that they gave you ?—A. Well the 
 character of the information they brought to us was very bad, sir. 
 
 * * * * * # * 
 
 Q. Do you remember any of these reports that you got from members of your com¬ 
 mittee?—A. Yes, sir; they said in several parts where they was that the land rent 
 was still higher there in that part of the country than it was where we first organized 
 it, and the people was still being whipped, some of them, by the old owners, the men 
 that had owned them as slaves, and some of them was being cheated out of their 
 crops just the same as they was there. 
 
 Q. Was anything said about their personal and political rights in these reports as to 
 how they were treated ?—A. Yes; some of them stated that in some parts of the country 
 where they voted they would be shot. Some of them stated that if they voted the 
 Democratic ticket they would not be injured. 
 
 Q. Now, let us understand more distinctly, before we go any furl her, the kind of peo¬ 
 ple who composed that association. The committee, as l understand you, was com¬ 
 posed entirely of laboring people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did it include any politicians of either color, white or black ?—A. Nopoliticianers 
 didn’t belong to it, because we didn’t allow them to know nothing about it, because 
 we was afraid that if we allowed the colored politiciauer to belong to it he would tell 
 it to the Republican politicianers, and from that the men that was doing all this to us 
 
 would get hold of it too, and then get after us. 
 
 * * * * * *■ * 
 
 Q. About what time did you lose all hope and confidence that your condition could 
 be tolerable in the Southern States ?—A. Well, we never lost all hopes in the world till 
 1877. 
 
 Q. Why did you lose all hope in that year?—A. Well, we found ourselves in such 
 condition that we looked around and we seed that there was no way on earth, it seemed, 
 that we could better our condition there, and we discussed that thoroughly in our 
 organization in May. We said that the whole South—every State in the South—had 
 got into the hands of the very T men that held us slaves—from one thing to another— 
 and we thought that the men that held us slaves was holding the reins of government 
 over our heads in every respect almost, even the constable up to the governor. AVe 
 felt we had almost as well be slaves under these men. In regard to the whole matter 
 that was discussed it came up in every council. Then we said there was no hope for 
 us and we had better go. 
 
 Q. You say, then, that in 1877 you lost all hope of being able to remain in the South, 
 and you began to think of moving somewhere else ?—A. Yes; we said we was going if 
 we had to run away and go into the woods. 
 
 Q. About how many did this committee consist of before you organized your coun¬ 
 cil? Give us the number as near as you can tell.—A. As many as five hundred in all. 
 
 Q. The committee, do you mean?—A. Yes; the committee has been that large. 
 
 Q. What was the largest number reached by your colonization council, in your best 
 judgment?—A. AVell, it is* not exactly five hundred men belonging to the council that 
 we have in our council, but they” all agreed to go with us and enroll their names with 
 us from time to time, so that they have now got at this time ninety-eight thousand 
 names enrolled. 
 
 Q. Then through that council, as sort of subscribers to its purpose and acts and for 
 carrying out its objects, there were ninety-eight thousand names ?—A. Tes; ninety- 
 eight thousand names enrolled. 
 
 Q. In what parts of the country were these ninety-eight thousand people spattered ? 
 —A. Well, some in Louisiana—the majority of them in Louisiana—and some in Texas, 
 and some in Arkansas. AA T e joins Arkansas. 
 
 Q. Were there any* in Mississippi ?—A. Yes, sir ; a few in Mississippi. 
 
 Q. And a few in Alabama?—A. Yes, sir; a few in Alabama, too. 
 
 Q. Did the organization extend at all into other States farther away ?—A. 0, yes, sir. 
 
XII 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Have you members in all the Southern States?—A. Not in every one, but in a 
 great many of the others. 
 
 Q. Are these members of that colonization council in communication as to the con¬ 
 dition of your race, and as to the best thing to be done to alleviate their troubles ?— 
 A. O, yes. 
 
 Q. What do you know about inducements being held out from politicians of the 
 North, or from politicians anywhere else, to induce these people to leave their section 
 of country and go into the Northern or Western States ?—A. There is nobody has writ¬ 
 ten letters of that kind, individually—uot no white persons, I know, not to me, to in¬ 
 duce anybody to come. 
 
 Q. Well, to any of the other members of your council ?—A. No, I don’t think to any 
 of the members. If they have, they haven’t said nothing to me about it. 
 
 It appears also from the evidence of Samuel L. Perry, of North Caro¬ 
 lina, a colored man, who accompanied most of the emigrants from that 
 State to Indiana, and who had more to do with the exodus from that 
 quarter than any other man, that the movement had its origin as far 
 back as 1872, as the following questions and answers will show: 
 
 Q. You have heard a good deal of this testimony with reference to this exodus from 
 North Carolina. Now begin at the beginning and tell us all you know about it.—A. 
 Well, the beginning, I suppose, was in this way : The first idea or the first thing was, 
 we used to have little meetings to talk over these matters. In 1872 we first received 
 some circulars or pamphlets from O. F. Davis, of Omaha, Nebraska. 
 
 Q. In 1872?—A. Yes, sir; in 1872—giving a description of government lands and 
 railroads that could be got cheap ; and we held little meetings then ; that is, we would 
 meet and talk about it Sunday evenings—that is, the laboring class of our people—the 
 only ones I knew anything about; I had not much to do with the big professional ne¬ 
 groes, the rich men. I did not associate with them much, but 1 got among the work¬ 
 ingmen, and they would take these pamphlets and read them over. 
 
 Mr. Perry says that the feeling in favor of migrating subsided some¬ 
 what, but sprung up again in 1876. From that time down to 1879 there 
 were frequent consultations upon the subject, much dissatisfaction ex¬ 
 pressed respecting their condition, and a desire to emigrate to some part 
 of the West. He says about u that time L was a subscriber to the New 
 York Herald, and from an article in that paper the report was that the 
 people were going to Kansas, and we thought we could go to Kansas too ; 
 that we could get a colony to go West. That was last spring. We came 
 back and formed ourselves into a colony of some hundred men.” They 
 did not, however, begin their westward movements until the fall of 1879, 
 when it being ascertained by the railroad companies that a considerable 
 number of people were proposing to migrate from North Carolina to the 
 West, several railroad companies, notably the Baltimore and Ohio, 
 offered to certain active and influential colored men $1 per head for all 
 
 when an organization of colored people, called the State Labor Union, 
 delegated Hon. George F. Marlow to visit Kansas, and other parts of 
 the West, for the purpose of examining that country and reporting back 
 to a future convention his views as to the expediency of removing thereto. 
 A convention of colored people was held again in 1872, at which Mr. 
 Marlow made the following glowing report of the condition of things in 
 Kansas and the inducements that State offered to the colored people, 
 lie said: 
 
 In August, 1871, beiug delegated by your president for tlie purpose, I visited the 
 S. L ate of Kansas, and here give the results of my observations, briefiy stated. 
 
 It is a new State, and as such possesses many advantages over the old. 
 
 It is much more productive than most other States. 
 
 What is raised yields more profit than elsewhere, as it is raised at less expense. 
 
 The weather and roads enable you to do more work here than elsewhere. 
 
 The climate is mild and pleasant. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 XIII 
 
 Winters short and require little food for stock. 
 
 Fine grazing country ; stock can be grazed all winter. 
 
 The population is enterprising, towns and villages spring up rapidly, and great 
 profits arise from all investments. 
 
 Climate dry, and land free from swamps. 
 
 The money paid to doctors in less healthy regions can here he used to build up a 
 house. 
 
 People quiet and orderly, schools and churches to be found in every neighborhood, 
 and ample provision for free schools is made by the State. 
 
 Money plenty, and what you raise commands a good price. 
 
 Fruits of all kinds easily grown and sold at large profits. 
 
 Railroads are being built in every direction. 
 
 The country is well watered. 
 
 Salt and coal are plentiful. 
 
 It is within the reach of every man, no matter how poor, to have a home in Kansas. 
 The best lands are to be had at from $2 to $10 an acre, on time. The different rail¬ 
 roads own large tracts of land, and offer liberal inducements to emigrants. You can 
 get good land in some places for $1.25 an acre. The country is mostly open prairie, 
 level, with deep, rich soil, producing from forty to one hundred bushels of corn and 
 wheat to the acre. The corn grows about eight or nine feet high, and I never saw 
 better fruit anywhere than there. 
 
 The report was adopted. 
 
 The feeling of the colored people in that State in 1872 was well ex¬ 
 pressed by Hon. Robert H. Knox, of Montgomery, a prominent colored 
 citizen, who, in addressing the convention, spoke as follows: 
 
 I have listened with great attention to the report of the commissioner appointed by 
 authority of the State Labor Union to visit Kansas, and while I own the inducements 
 held out to the laboring man in that far-off State are much greater than those enjoyed 
 by our State, I yet would say let us rest here awhile longer ; let us trust in God, the 
 President, and Congress to give us what is most needed here, personal security to the 
 laboring masses, the suppression of violence, disorder, and kukluxism, the protection 
 which the Constitution and laws of the United States guarantee, and to which as citi¬ 
 zens and men we are entitled. Failing in these, it is time then, I repeat, to desert the 
 State and seek homes elsewhere where there may be the fruition of hopes inaugurated 
 when by the hand of Providence the shackles were stricken from the limbs of four 
 million men, where there may be enjoyed in peace and happiness by your own fireside 
 the earnings of your daily toil. 
 
 Benjamin Singleton, an aged colored man, now residing in Kansas, 
 swears that he began the work of inducing his race to migrate to that 
 State as early as 1809, and that he has brought mainly from Tennessee, 
 and located in two colonies—one in Cherokee County, and another in 
 Lyons County, Kansas—a total of 7,432 colored people. The old man 
 spoke in the most touching manner of the sufferings and wrongs of liis 
 people in the South, and in the most glowing terms of their condition in 
 their new homes ; and when asked as to who originated the movement, 
 he proudly asserted, u I am the father of the exodus. 77 lie said that 
 during these years since he began the movement he has paid from his 
 own pocket over $000 for circulars, which he has caused to be printed 
 and circulated all over the Southern States, advising all who can pay 
 their way to come to Kansas. In these circulars he advised the colored 
 people of the advantages of living in a free State, and told them how 
 well the emigrants whom he had taken there were getting on. He says 
 that the emigrants whom he has taken to Kansas are happy and doing 
 well. The old man insists with great enthusiasm that lie is the a whole 
 cause of the Kansas immigration, 77 and is very proud of his achievement. 
 
 Here, then, we have conclusive proof from the negroes themselves that 
 they have been preparing for this movement for many years. Organi¬ 
 zations to this end have existed in many States, and the agents of such 
 organizations have traveled throughout the South. One of these organi¬ 
 zations alone kept one hundred and fifty men in the field for years, tia\ - 
 eling among their brethren and secretly discussing this among other 
 
XIV 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 means of relief. As stated by Adams and Perry, politicians were ex¬ 
 cluded, and the movement was confined wholly to the working classes. 
 
 The movement has doubtless been somewhat stimulated by circulars 
 from railroad companies and State emigration societies which have found 
 their way into the South, but these have had comparatively little effect. 
 The following specimen of these emigration documents, which was gotten 
 up and circulated by Indiana Democrats, printed at a Democratic print¬ 
 ing office, and written by a Democrat, in our judgment appeals more 
 strongly to the imagination and wants of the negro than any we have 
 been able to find: 
 
 In every count)/ of the State there is an asylum where those who are unable to work and have 
 no means of support are cared for at the public expense. 
 
 Laborers who work by the month or by the year make their own contract with the 
 employer, and all disputes subsequently arising are settled by legal processes in the 
 proper courts, everybody being equal before the law in Indiana. The price of farm labor 
 lias varied considerably in the last t wenty years. About .$16 per month may be assumed 
 as about the average per month, and this is understood to include board, and lodging at the 
 farm-house. This amount is paid in current money at the end of each month, unless other¬ 
 wise stipulated iu the contract. Occasionally a tenement house is found on the larger 
 farms, where a laborer lives with his family, and either rents a portion of the farm or 
 cultivates it on special contract with the landlord. With us there is no class of laborers 
 as such. The young man who to-day may be a hired laborer at monthly wages, may in Jive 
 years from now be himself a proprietor, owning the soil he cultivates and paying wages to 
 laborers. The upward road is open to all, and its highest elevation is attainable by in¬ 
 dustry, economy, and perseverance. 
 
 Sixteen dollars per month, with board! Everybody equal before the 
 law! No class of laborers as such! The hired man of to-day himself 
 the owner of a farm in five years! No cheating of tenants, but every¬ 
 thing paid in current money. And if all this will not attract the negro 
 he is told there is an “ asylum in every county” to which he can go when 
 unable to support himself. The document also promises to everybody 
 “free schools” in “ brick or stone school-houses,” and says they have 
 “$2,000,000 greater school fund than any State in the Union.” These 
 Democratic documents have been circulated by the thousand, and doubt¬ 
 less many of them have found their way into the negro cabins of North 
 Carolina. It is not surprising that the negro looks with longing eyes 
 to that great and noble State. 
 
 CAUSES OF THE EXODUS. 
 
 There is surely some adequate cause for such a movement. The ma¬ 
 jority of the committee have utterly failed to find it, or, if found, to rec¬ 
 ognize it. When it was found that any of their own witnesses were 
 ready to state causes which did not accord with their theory they were 
 dismissed without examination, as in the cases of Ruby and Stafford, 
 and a half dozen others who were brought from Kansas, but who on 
 their arrival here were found to entertain views not agreeable to the 
 majority. 
 
 \\ e regret that a faithful and honest discussion of this subject com¬ 
 pels a reference to the darkest, bloodiest, and most shameful chapter of 
 our political history. Gladly would we avoid it, but candor compels us 
 to say that the volume which shall faithfully record the crimes which, in 
 the name o( Democracy, have been committed against the citizenship, 
 the lives, and the personal rights of these people, and which have finally 
 driven them in utter despair from their homes, will stand forever with¬ 
 out a parallel in the annals of Christian civilization. In discussing 
 these sad and shameful events, we wish it distinctly understood that we 
 do not arraign the whole people nor even the entire Democratic party 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 XV 
 
 of the States in which they have occurred. The colored and other wit¬ 
 nesses all declare that the lawlessness from which they have suffered 
 does not meet the approval of the better class of Democrats at the 
 South. They are generally committed by the reckless, dissolute classes 
 who unfortunately too often control and dominate the Democratic party 
 and dictate its policy. We have no doubt there are many Democrats 
 in the South who deeply regret this condition of things, and who would 
 gladly welcome a change, but they are in a helpless, and we fear a hope¬ 
 less, minority in many sections of that country. 
 
 The unfortunate and inexcusable feature of the case is that, however 
 much they may deplore such lawlessness, they have never, so far as we 
 can learn, declined to accept its fruits. They may regret the violence 
 and crimes by which American citizens are prevented from voting, but 
 they rejoice in the Democratic victories which result therefrom. So 
 long as they shall continue thus to accept the fruits of crime, the crimi¬ 
 nals will have but little fear of punishment or restraint, and the law¬ 
 less conduct which is depopulating some sections of their laboring 
 classes will go on. There is another unfortunate feature of this mat¬ 
 ter. So long as crimes against American citizenship shall continue to 
 suppress Republican majorities, and to give a u solid South w to the 
 Democracy, there will be found enough Democrats at the North who 
 will shut their eyes to the means by which it is accomplished, and seek 
 to cover up and excuse the conduct of their political partisans at the 
 South. 
 
 This is well illustrated by the report of the majority of the commit¬ 
 tee. In the presence of most diabolic outrages clearly proven; in the 
 face of the declaration of thousands of refugees that they had fled be¬ 
 cause of the insecurity of their lives and property at the South, and 
 because the Democratic party of that section had, by means too shock¬ 
 ing and shameful to relate, deprived them of their rights as American 
 citizens; in the face of the fact that it has been clearly shown by the 
 evidence that organizations of colored laborers, one of which numbered 
 ninety-eight thousand, have existed for many years and extending into 
 many States of the South, designed to improve their condition by emi¬ 
 gration—in the face of all these facts the majority of the committee 
 can see no cause for the exodus growing out of such wrongs, but en¬ 
 deavor to charge it to the Republicans of the North. 
 
 In view of this fact, it is our painful duty to point out some of the real 
 causes of this movement. It is, however, quite impossible to enumerate 
 all or any considerable part of the causes of discontent and utter despair 
 which have finally culminated in this movement. To do so would be to 
 repeat a history of violence and crime which for fifteen years have red¬ 
 dened with the blood "of innocent victims many of the fairest portions of 
 our country; to do so would be to read the numberless volumes ot sworn 
 testimony which have been carefully corded away in the crypt and base¬ 
 ment of this Capitol, reciting shocking instances of crime, crying from 
 the ground against the perpetrators of the deeds which they record. 
 The most which we can hope to do within the limits oi this report is to 
 present a very few facts which shall be merely illustrative of the condi¬ 
 tions which have driven from their homes and the graves ol their lathers 
 an industrious, patient, and law-abiding people, whom we are bound bj 
 every obligation of honor and patriotism to protect in their personal and 
 political rights and privileges. 
 
 We begin with the State of North Carolina because the migration from 
 that State has been comparatively insignificant, and also because the 
 conditions there are more favorable to the colored race than in am ot 
 
XVI 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 the other cotton States of the South. Owing to the lack of funds, and 
 to the time employed in the examination of witnesses called by the ma¬ 
 jority, the Republican members of the committee summoned no witnesses 
 from tlie State of North Carolina, and were obliged to content themselves 
 with such facts as could be obtained from one or two persons who hap¬ 
 pened to be in this city, and such other facts as were brought out upon 
 cross-examination of the witnesses called by the other side. By the care¬ 
 ful selection of a few well-to do and more fortunate colored men from that 
 State, the majority of the committee secured some evidence tending to 
 show that a portion of the negroes of North Carolina are exceptionally 
 well treated and contented, and yet upon cross-examination of their own 
 witnesses facts were disclosed which showed that, even there, conditions 
 exist which are ample to account for the migration of the entire colored 
 population. 
 
 There are three things in that State which create great discontent 
 among the colored people: First, the abridgment of their rights of self- 
 government ; second, their disadvantages as to common schools; third, 
 discriminations against them in the courts; and, fourth, the memory of 
 Democratic outrages. Prior to Democratic rule the people of each county 
 elected five commissioners, who had supervision over the whole county, 
 and who chose the judges of elections. The Democrats changed the 
 constitution so as to take this power from the people, and gave to the 
 general assembly authority to appoint these officers. This they regard 
 not only as practically depriving them of self-government, but, as stated 
 by one of the witnesses, Hon. R. C. Badger, as placing the elections, 
 even in Republican townships, wholly underthe control of the Democrats, 
 who thereby “have the power to count up the returns and throw out 
 the balance for any technicality, exactly as Garcelon & Go. did in Maine.” 
 This creates much dissatisfaction, because they believe they are cheated 
 out of their votes. The negro values the ballot more than anything 
 else, because he knows that it is his only means of defense and protection. 
 A law which places all the returning boards in the hands of liis political 
 opponents necessarily and justly produces discontent. 
 
 Next to the ballot the negro values the privileges of common schools, 
 for in them he sees the future elevation of his race. The prejudice 
 even in North Carolina against white teachers of colored schools seems 
 to have abated but little since the war. Mr. Badger, when cross-exam¬ 
 ined on this point, said : 
 
 Q. Is there any prejudice still remaining there against white teachers of colored 
 schools?—A. I think there is. 
 
 Q. Will you explain it 
 the races. 
 
 Q. You mean, white persons teaching a colored school lose social status ?- 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Now, a white lady who comes from the North and teaches a colored school, to 
 what extent is she tabooed?—A. I don’t think she would have any acquaintances in 
 white society. 
 
 Q. Would she be any (pricker invited into white society than a colored woman ?—A. 
 Just about the same. 
 
 -A. I cannot explain it, except by the prejudices between 
 
 -A. Yes, 
 
 il sc 
 
 any acqm 
 
 This fact contains within itself a volume of testimony. It shows that 
 the negro is still regarded as a sort of social and political pariah, whom 
 no white person may teach without incurring social ostracism and being 
 degraded to the level of the social outcast he or she would elevate in 
 the scale ot being. Is it surprising that the negro is dissatisfied with 
 his condition and desires to emigrate to some country where his children 
 may hope for better things ? 
 
 Hie most serious complaints, however, which are made against the 
 
XVII 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 treatment of colored citizens of North Carolina is that justice is not 
 fairly administered in the courts as between themselves and the whites. 
 On this point the evidence of Mr. R. C. Badger reveals a condition of 
 things to which no people can long submit. Here is his illustration of 
 the manner in which justice is usually meted out as between the negroes 
 and the whites: 
 
 Q. How about the discrimination in the courts as between the whites and blacks ?— 
 A. That is principally in matters of larcency. In such cases the presumption is 
 reversed as to the negro. A white man can’t be convicted without the fullest proof, 
 and with the negroes, in matters between themselves, such as assault and battery, 
 they get as fair a trial as the whites. At the January term of our court Judge Avery 
 presided. A white man and a colored woman were indicted for an affray. The woman 
 was in her husband’s barn getting out corn; they were going to move, and the white 
 man came down there and said, “You seem to have a good time laughing here this 
 morning,” and she said, yes, she had a right to laugh. He said, “ You are getting 
 that corn out, and you would have made more if you had stuck to your husband.” 
 She seemed to be a sort of termagant, and she said nobody said that about her unless 
 you told them. He made some insulting remark, and she made something in return to 
 him, and he took a billet of wood and struck her on the shoulder, and he pulled a 
 pistol and beat her with it, and she went for him to kill him. They found the man not 
 ynitty and they found her guilty, but Judge Avery set the verdict aside and ordered the 
 case nolleprossed against her. 
 
 Q. Do you think that is a fair sample of the justice they get ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think they will convict a colored woman m order to get a chance to turn 
 loose a white man ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Badger was not our witness. He was called by the majority, but 
 lie is a gentleman of high character, the son of an ex-member of this 
 body, and thoroughly acquainted with the condition of things in his 
 State. He puts the case just mentioned as a “fair sample” of North 
 Carolina justice toward the negro. It is true the judge set aside the 
 verdict, but this does not change the fact that before a North Carolina 
 jury the negro has but little hope of justice. 
 
 Back of all these things lies the distrust of Democracy which was in¬ 
 spired during the days when the “ Kuklux,” the u White Brotherhood,” 
 the u Universal Empire,” and the “Stonewall Guard” spread terror and 
 desolation over the State in order to wrest it from Republicanism to 
 Democracy, The memory of those dark days and bloody deeds, the 
 prejudice which still forbids white ladies to teach colored schools, and 
 denies u even-handed justice” in the courts, and the usurpations which 
 place the returning boards all in the hands of Democrats, have inspired 
 a feeling of discontent which has found expression in the efforts of a few 
 to leave the State. These facts, taken in connection with the bonus of 
 one dollar per head offered by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad < om- 
 pany (a Democratic corporation represented by a Democratic agent) to 
 leading colored men who would secure passengers for their road, has 
 led to the emigration of some seven or eight hundred colored people 
 from that State, and the only wonder is that thousands instead of hun¬ 
 dreds have not gone. 
 
 LOUISIANA AND MISSISSIPPI. 
 
 The States of Louisiana and Mississippi have furnished the larger por¬ 
 tion of the migration to Kansas, and as the conditions which caused 
 the exodus are the same in both of these States, we may speak oi them 
 together. No single act of wrong has inspired this movement, but- a 
 long series of oppression, injustice, and violence, extending o\ er a 
 of fifteen years. These people have been long-suffering and wonderfully 
 patient, but the time came when they could endure it no longer and they 
 resolved to oo. We can convey no adequate idea of what the} cm um< 
 
 ii 
 
 resolved to 
 
 S. Rep. 093 
 
XVIII 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 before adopting’ this desperate resolve, but will mention a few facts drawn 
 from well authenticated history, from sworn public documents, and from 
 the evidence taken by the Exodus Investigating Committee. Writing 
 under date of January 10,1875, General P. H. Sheridan, then in command 
 at New Orleans, says: 
 
 Since the year 1866 nearly thirty-live hundred persons, a great majority of whom 
 were colored men, have been killed and wounded in this State. In 1868 the official 
 record shows that eighteen hundred and eighty-four were killed and wounded. From 
 1868 to the present time no official investigation has been made, and the civil author¬ 
 ities in all but a few cast's have been unable to arrest, convict, or punish the perpe¬ 
 trators. Consequently there are no correct records to be consulted for information. 
 There is ample evidence, however, to show that more than twelve hundred persons 
 ha ve been killed and wounded during this time on account of their political sentiments. 
 Frightful massacres have occurred in the parishes ot Bossier, Caddo, Catahoula, Saint 
 Bernard, Saint Landry, Grant, and Orleans. 
 
 He tlieu proceeds to enumerate the political murders of colored men 
 in the various parishes, and says : 
 
 Human life in this State is held so cheaply that when men are killed on account of 
 political opinions, the murderers are regarded rather as heroes than criminals in the 
 localities where they reside. 
 
 This brief summary is not by a politician, but by a distinguished 
 soldier, who recounts the events which have occurred within his own 
 military jurisdiction. Volumes of testimony have since been taken con¬ 
 firming in all respects General Sheridan’s statement, and giving in detail 
 the facts relating to such murders, and the times and circumstances of 
 their occurrence. The results of the elections which immediately followed 
 them disclose the motives and purposes of their perpetrators. These 
 reports show that in the year 1808 a reign of terror prevailed over almost 
 the entire State. In the parish of Saint Landry there was a massacre 
 of colored people which began on the 28th of September, 1868, and lasted 
 from three to si;c days, during which between two and three hundred 
 colored men were killed. u Thirteen captives were taken from the jail 
 and shot, and a pile of twenty-five dead bodies were found burned in the 
 woods.” The result of this Democratic campaign in the parish was that 
 the registered Republican majority of 1,071 was wholly obliterated, and, 
 at the election which followed a few weeks later not a vote was cast for 
 General Grant, while Seymour and Blair received 4,787. 
 
 In the parish of Bossier a similar massacre occurred between the 20th 
 and 30th of September, 1868, which lasted from three to four days, dur¬ 
 ing which two hundred colored people were killed. By the official regis¬ 
 try of that year the Republican voters in Bossier Parish numbered 1,938, 
 but at the ensuing election only one Republican vote was cast. 
 
 In the parish of Caddo during the month of October, 1868, over forty 
 colored people were killed. The result of that massacre was that out 
 of a Republican registered vote of 2,894 only one was cast for General 
 Grant. Similar scenes were enacted throughout the State, varying in 
 extent and atrocity according to the magnitude of the Republican 
 majority to be overcome. 
 
 The total summing-up of murders, mannings, and whippings which 
 
 follows: The official registration for that year in twenty eight parishes 
 contained 4<,923 names of Republican voters, but at the Presidential 
 election, held a few weeks after the occurrence of these events, b 
 Republican votes were cast, making the net Democratic gain fr 
 transactions 42.563. 
 
 but 5,360 
 om said 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 XIX 
 
 In nine of these parishes where the reign of terror was most preva¬ 
 lent, out of 11,604 registered Republican votes only 19 were cast for 
 General Grant. In seven of said parishes there were 7,253 registered 
 Republican votes but not one was cast at the ensuing election for the 
 Republican ticket. 
 
 In the years succeeding 1868, when some restraint was imposed upon 
 political lawlessness and a comparatively peaceful election was held, 
 these same Republican parishes cast from 33,000 to 37,000 Republican 
 votes, thus demonstrating the purpose and the effects of the reign of 
 murder in 1868. In 1876 the spirit of violence and persecution which, in 
 parts of the State, had been partially restrained for a time, broke forth 
 again with renewed fury. It was deemed necessary to carry that State 
 for Tilden and Hendricks, and the policy which had proved so successful 
 in 1868 was again invoked and with like results. On the day of general 
 election in 1876 there were in the State of Louisiana 92,996 registered 
 white voters and 115,310 colored, making a Republican majority of the 
 latter of 22,314. The number of white Republicans was far in excess of 
 the number of colored Democrats. It was, therefore, well known that 
 if a fair election should be held the State would go Republican by from 
 twenty-five to forty thousand majority. The policy adopted this time 
 was to select a few of the largest Republican parishes and by terrorism 
 and violence not only obliterate their Republican majorities, but also 
 intimidate the negroes in the other parishes. The sworn testimony 
 found in our public documents and records shows that the same system 
 of assassinations, whippings, burnings, and other acts of political per¬ 
 secution of colored citizens which had occurred in 1868 was "again re¬ 
 peated in 1876 and with like results. 
 
 In fifteen parishes where 17,726 Republicans were registered in 1876 
 only 5,758 votes were cast for Hayes and Wheeler, and in one of them 
 (East Feliciana) where there were 2,127 Republicans registered but 1 
 Republican vote was cast. By such methods the Republican majority of 
 the State was supposed to have been effectually suppressed and a Dem¬ 
 ocratic victory assured. And because the legally constituted authorities 
 of Louisiana, acting in conformity with law and justice, declined to count 
 some of the parishes thus carried by violence and blood the Democratic 
 party, both North and South, has ever since complained that it was 
 fraudulently deprived of the fruits of victory, and it now proposes to 
 make this grievance the principal plank in the party platform. 
 
 On the 6th of December, 1876, President Grant in a message to Con¬ 
 gress transmitted the evidence of these horrible crimes against the 
 colored race, committed in the name and in the interest of the Democracy. 
 They are not mere estimates nor conjectures, but the names of the per¬ 
 sons murdered, maimed, and whipped, and of the perpetrators of the 
 crimes, the places where they occurred, and the revolting circumstances 
 under which they were committed, are all set forth in detail. This 
 shocking record embraces a period of eight years, from 1868 to 1876, 
 inclusive, and covers ninety-eight pages of fine type, giving an average 
 of about one victim to each line. We have not counted the list, but it is 
 sate to say that it numbers over four thousand. 
 
 These crimes did not end in 1876 with the accession of the Democracy 
 to control of the State administration. The witnesses examined by your 
 committee gave numerous instances of like character which occuned in 
 1878. Madison Parish may serve as an illustration. This parish, winch 
 furnished perhaps the largest number of refugees to Kansas, had been 
 exceptionally free from bulldozing informer years. 1\ llliam Munc , 
 
XX 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 one of tlie witnesses called by the committee, states the reasons for the 
 exodus from that parish as follows: 
 
 You have not read of any exodus yet as there will be from that section this summer, 
 and the reason for it is that, for the first time since the war in Madison Parish, last 
 December we had bulldozing there. Armed bodies of men came into the parish—not 
 people who lived in the parish, but men from Ouachita Parish and Richland Parish; 
 and I can name the leader who commanded them. He was a gentleman by the name 
 of Captain Tibbals, of Ouachita Parish, who lives in Monroe, who was noted in the 
 celebrated massacre there in other times. His very name among the colored people is 
 sufficient to intimidate them almost. He came with a crowd of men on the 8th of 
 December into Madison Parish, when all was quiet and peaceable. There was no quar¬ 
 rel, no excitement. We had always elected our tickets in the parish, and we had put 
 Democrats on the ticket in many cases to satisfy them. There were only 238 white 
 voters and about 2,700 colored registered voters. 
 
 Mr. Murrell says that David Armstrong, who was president of the 
 third ward Republican club, a man who stood high in the community, 
 and against whom no charge was made except that of being a Repub¬ 
 lican, made the remark: 
 
 “What right have these white men to come here from Morehouse Parish, and Rich¬ 
 land Parish, and Franklin Parish to interfere with our election ?” And some white 
 men heard of it and got a squad by themselves and said, “We’ll go down and give 
 that nigger a whipping.” So Sunday night, about ten o’clock, they went to his house 
 to take him out and whip him. They saw him run out the back way and fired on 
 him. One in the crowd cried out, “Don’t kill him!” “ It is too late, now,” they said, 
 “he’s dead.” The Carroll Conservative, a Democratic newspaper, published the 
 whole thing; but the reason they did it was because we had one of their men on our 
 ticket as judge, and they got sore about it, and we beat him. They killed Armstrong 
 and took him three hundred yards to the river, in a sheet, threw him in the river, 
 and left the sheet in the bushes. 
 
 Proceeding with the account of that transaction, Mr. Murrell swears 
 that the colored people had heard that the bulldozers were coming from 
 the surrounding parishes, and that he and others called on some of the 
 leading Democrats in order to prevent it, but all in vain. He says: 
 
 We waited on Mr. Holmes, the clerk of the court, and we said to him, “Mr. Holmes, 
 it is not necessary to do any bulldozing here; you have die counting machinery all 
 in your hands, and we would rather be counted out than bulldozed; can’t we arrange 
 this thing?” I made a proposition to him and said, “You know I am renominated 
 on the Republican ticket, but I will get out of the way for any moderate Democrat 
 you may name, to save the State and district ticket. We will not vote for your State 
 ticket; you cannot make the colored people vote the State ticket; but if you will let 
 us have our State ticket we will give you the local offices.” We offered them the 
 clerk of the court, not the sheriff', and the two representatives. We told him we 
 would not give them the senator, but the district judge and attorney. After this 
 interview Holmes sent us to Dr. Askew, ex-chairman of the Democratic committee, 
 and he said to me, “Now, Murrell, there is no use talking, I advise you to stand from 
 under. When these men get in here we can’t control them. We like you well enough 
 and would not like to see you hurt. I will see you to-night at Mr. Holmes’s.” We 
 had an interview with Mr. Holmes and made this proposition, and Holmes asked me 
 this question : “Murrell, you know damned well the niggers in this parish won’t vote 
 the Democratic ticket—there is no use to tell me you will give us the clerk of the 
 court, you know the niggers won’t do it. You can’t trust the niggers in politics; all 
 your eloquence and all the speeches you can make won’t make these niggers vote this 
 ticket or what you suggest, even if we was to accept if. No, by God, Murrell, there’s 
 no use talking, we are going to carry this parish ; we have found a way to carry it. 
 There ain’t no use talking any more about it. JS T o, by God, we are ffoing to carry it. 
 V> liy, he said, “ there is more eloquence in double-barreled shot-guns to convince niggers 
 than there is in forty Ciceros.” I said to him, “Well, do you suppose the merchants 
 and planters will back you up,” and he said, “O, by God, they have got nothing to 
 do with it. We have charge of it. JVe three men, the Democratic committee, have full 
 power to work.” 
 
 The result of this “work' 7 was, as stated by the witness, and not dis¬ 
 puted by any one before the committee, that in this parish, containing 
 2,700 registered Republican voters, and only 23S Democrats, the Demo- 
 
/ 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 XXI 
 
 crats returned a majority of 2,300. The witness, who was a candidate 
 on the Republican ticket, swears that not more than 360 votes were 
 cast. Democratic shot-gun eloquence did its “ work,” as prophesied by 
 Mr. Askew, ex-chairman of the Democratic committee, but it also served 
 as a wonderful stimulus to migration from Madison Parish. 
 
 We cite this case for two reasons : First, because it has been said that 
 the negroes have not emigrated from bulldozed parishes; and, secondly, 
 because it serves as an illustration of the many similar cases which were 
 given to the committee. 
 
 We desire also to invite attention to the evidence of Henry Adams, 
 a colored witness from Shreveport, La. Adams is a man of very re¬ 
 markable energy and native ability. Scores of witnesses were summoned 
 by the majority of the committee from Shreveport, but none of them 
 ventured to question liis integrity or truthfulness. Though a common 
 laborer, he has devoted much of his time in traveling through Louisiana, 
 Mississippi, and Texas, working his way and taking notes of the crimes 
 committed against his race. His notes, written in terse and simple lan¬ 
 guage, embraced the names of six hundred and eighty-three colored 
 men who have been whipped, maimed, or murdered within the last eight 
 years, and his statement of these crimes covers thirty-five pages of 
 closely printed matter in the report. We are sure no one can read it 
 without a conviction of its truthfulness and a feeling of horror at the 
 barbarous details he relates. Adams is the man who has organized a 
 colonization council, composed of laboring colored people, and rigidly 
 excluding politicians, which numbers ninety-eight thousand who have 
 enrolled themselves with a view to emigration from that country as 
 early as possible. He details the character and the purpose of the or¬ 
 ganization and the efforts it has made to obtain relief and protection 
 for its members. “ First,” he says, “ we appealed to the President of the 
 United States to help us out of our distress, to protect us in our rights 
 and privileges. Next, we appealed to Congress for a territory to which 
 we might go and live with our families. Failing in that,” says he, “our 
 other object was to ask for help to ship us all to Liberia, Africa, some¬ 
 where where we could live in peace and quiet. If that could not be 
 done,” he adds, u our idea was to appeal to other governments outside of the 
 United States to help us to get away from the United States and go and live 
 there under their flag.” What a commentary upon our own boasted 
 equality and freedom! Finding no relief in any direction, they finally 
 resolved to emigrate to some of the Northern States. He says they had 
 some hope of securing better treatment at home until 1877, when “we 
 lost all hopes and determined to go anywhere on God’s earth, we didn’t 
 care where; we said we was going if we had to run away and go to the 
 woods.” Perhaps we can best summarize the condition of affairs in 
 Louisiana, and the causes of the exodus from that State, as the negroes 
 themselves regarded them, by quoting a brief extract from the report 
 of the business committee to lie colored State convention held in New 
 Orleans on the 21st of April, 1879: 
 
 New Orleans, April 21, 1879. 
 
 Mr. President: Your committee on business have the honor to submit this their 
 final report. Discussing the general and widespread alarm among the colored people 
 of Louisiana, including so potent a fear that in many parishes, and in others pel haps 
 largely to follow, there is an exodus of agricultural labor which indicates the prostra¬ 
 tion and destruction of the productive, and therefore essentially vital, interests <d t ie 
 State. The Committee find that the primary cause of this lies in the absence of a republican 
 form of government to the people of Louisiana. Crime and lawlessness existing to an extent 
 that laughs at all restraint, and the misgovernment naturally induced from a State adminis- 
 
XXII 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 tration itself the product of violence, have created an absorbing and constantly increasing dis¬ 
 trust and alarm among our people throughout the State. All rights of freemen denied and 
 all claims to a just recompense for labor rendered or honorable dealings between planter and 
 laborer disallowed, justice a mockery, and the laws a cheat, the very officers of the courts be¬ 
 ing themselves the mobocrats and violators of law, the only remedy left the colored citizen in 
 many parishes of our State to-day is to emigrate. The fiat to go forth is irresistible. The 
 constantly recurring, nay, ever-present, fear which haunts the minds of these our people in 
 the turbulent parishes of the State is that slavery in the horrible form of peonage is ap¬ 
 proaching; that the avowed disposition of the men in power to reduce the laborer and his in¬ 
 terest to the minimum of advantages as freemen and to absolutely none as citizens has produced 
 so absolute a fear that in many cases it has become a panic. It is flight from present suffer¬ 
 ings and from wrongs to come. 
 
 Here are the reasons for the exodus as stated by the colored people 
 themselves. In view of the facts which we have stated, and of the ter¬ 
 rible history which we cannot here repeat, does any one believe their state¬ 
 ment of grievances is overdrawn? Is there any other race of freemen 
 on the face of the earth who would have endured and patiently suffered 
 as they have ? Is there any other government among civilized nations 
 which would have permitted such acts to be perpertrated against its 
 citizens ? 
 
 We will not dwell upon the conditions which have driven these people 
 from Mississippi. It would be but a repetition of the intolerance, per¬ 
 secutions, and violence which have prevailed in Louisiana, The same 
 Democratic “shot-gun eloquence” which was so potent for the conver¬ 
 sion of colored Republicans in the one has proven equally powerful in 
 the other. The same “eloquence” which wrested Louisiana from Repub¬ 
 licans also converted Mississippi. And in both the same results are 
 visible in the determination of the colored people to get away. 
 
 Nearly all the witnesses who were asked as to the causes of the ex¬ 
 odus answered that it was because of a feeling of insecurity for life and 
 property ; a denial of their political rights as citizens 5 long-continued 
 persecutions for political reasons; a system of cheating by landlords 
 and storekeepers which rendered it impossible for them to make a living 
 no matter how hard they might work; the inadequacy of school advan¬ 
 tages, and a fear that they would be eventually reduced to a system of 
 peonage even worse then slavery itself. 
 
 On the latter point they quoted the laws of Mississippi, which author¬ 
 ize a justice’s court to inflict heavy fines for the most trival offenses, and 
 authorize the sheriff to hire the convicts to planters and others for twenty- 
 five cents a day to work out the fine and cost, and which provide that 
 for every day lost from sickness he shall work another to pay for his 
 board while sick. Under these laws they allege that a colored man 
 may be fined $500 for some trifling misdemeanor, and be compelled to 
 work five or six years to pay the fine ; and that it is not uncommon for 
 colored men thus hired out to be worked in a chain-gang upon the 
 plantations under overseers, with whip in hand, precisely as in the days 
 of slavery. And some of the witnesses declared that if an attempt be 
 made to escape they are pursued with blood-hounds, as before the war. 
 
 Henry Ruby, a witness summoned by the majority of the committee, 
 swore that in Texas, under a law similar to that in Mississippi, a colored 
 man had been arrested for carrying a “six-shooter” and fined $05, in¬ 
 cluding costs, and that he had been at work nearly three years to pay 
 it. The laws of that State do not fix the rate for hiring, but “county 
 convicts” may be hired at any price the county judge may determine. 
 He mentioned the case of a colored woman who was hired out for a 
 quarter of a cent per day. Describing this process of hiring, he says: 
 
 They call these people county convicts, and if you have got a farm you can go and 
 hire them out ot the jail. They have got that system, and the colored men object to 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 XXIII 
 
 it. I know some of these men who have State convicts that they hire and tliev work 
 them under shotguns. A farmer hires so many of the State, and they are under the 
 supervision of a sergeant with a gun and nigger-hounds, to run them with if they <>et 
 away. They hire them and put them in the same gang with the striped suit on and 
 if they want, the guard can bring them down with his shotgun. Then tliev have 
 these nigger-hounds, and if one of them gets off and they can’t tind him they take the 
 hounds, and from a shoe, or anything of the kind belonging to the convict,'they trail 
 him down. 
 
 Q. Are these the same sort of hlood-liounds they used to have to run the negroes 
 with ?—A. Yes, sir. ' 
 
 These things need no comment. To the negro they are painfully 
 suggestive of slavery, is it a wonder that he has resolved to go where 
 peonage and blood-hounds are unknown i 
 
 Several witnesses were called from Saint Louis and Kansas, who had 
 conversed with thousands of the refugees, and who swore that they all 
 told the same story of injustice, oppression, and wrong. Upon" the 
 arrival of the first boat-loads at Saint Louis, in the early spring of 1879, 
 the people of that city were deeply moved by the evident destitution 
 and distress which they presented, and ihousands of them were inter¬ 
 viewed as to the causes which impelled them to leave their homes at 
 that inclement season of the year. In the presence of these people, and 
 with a full knowledge of their condition and of the causes of their flight, 
 a memorial to Congress was prepared, and signed by a large number of 
 the most prominent and respectable citizens of Saint Louis, embracing 
 such names as Mayor OVerholtz (a Democrat), Hon. John F. Dillon, judge 
 of the United States circuit court, ex United States Senator J. B. Hen¬ 
 derson, and nearly a hundred other leading citizens, in which the con¬ 
 dition and grievances of the refugees are stated as follows: 
 
 The undersigned, your memorialists, respectfully represent that within the last two 
 weeks there have come by steamboats up the Mississippi River, from chiefly the States 
 of Louisiana and Mississippi, and landed at Saint Louis, Mo., a great number of colored 
 citizens of the United States, not less than twenty hundred, and composed of men and 
 women, old and young, and with them many of their children. 
 
 This multitude is eager to proceed to Kansas, and without exception, so far as we 
 have learned, refuse all overtures or inducements to return South, even if their 
 passage back is paid for them. 
 
 The condition of the great majority is absolute poverty; they are clothed in thin 
 and ragged garments for the most part, and while here have been supported to some 
 extent by public, but mostly by private charity. 
 
 The older ones are the former slaves of the South ; all now entitled to life and liberty. 
 
 The weather from the first advent of these people in this Northern city has been 
 unusually cold, attended with ice and snow, so that their sufferings have been greatly 
 increased, and if there was in their hearts a single kind remembrance of their sunny 
 Southern homes they would naturally give it expression now. 
 
 We have taken occasion to examine into the causes they themselves assign tor their 
 extraordinary and unexpected transit, and beg leave to submit herewith the written 
 statements of a number of individuals of the refugees, which were taken without any 
 effort to have one thing said more than another, and to express the sense ot the wit¬ 
 ness in his own language as nearly as possible. 
 
 The story is about the same in each instance: great privation and want from exces¬ 
 sive rent exacted for land, connected with murder of colored neighbors and threats ot 
 personal violence to themselves. The tone of each statement is that of suffering and 
 terror. Election days and Christmas, by the concurrent testimony, seem to have been 
 appropriated to killing the smart men, while robbery and personal violence in one 
 
 form and another seem to have run the year round. 
 
 * -* * * ' * * 
 
 We submit that the great migration of negroes from the South is itself a fact that 
 overbears all contradiction, and proves conclusively that great causes must exist at 
 
 the South to account for it. . . 
 
 Here they are in multitudes, not men alone, but women and children, old, middle- 
 aged, and young, with common consent leaving their old homes in a natural climate 
 and facing storms and unknown dangers to go to Northern Kansas. \\ liy f Among 
 them all there is little said of hope in the future; it is all of fear in the past. 1 bey 
 are not drawn bv the attractions of Kansas; they are driven by the terrors ot Missis- 
 
XXIV 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 sippi and Louisiana. Whatever becomes of them, they are unanimous in their unal¬ 
 terable determination not to return. 
 
 There are others coming. Those who have come and gone on to Kansas must suffer 
 even unto death, we fear ; at all events more than any body of people entitled to lib¬ 
 erty and law, the possession of property, the right to vote, and the pursuit of happiness, 
 should be compelled to suffer under a free government from terror inspired by robbery, 
 threats, assaults, and murders. 
 
 We protest against the dire necessities that have impelled this exodus, and against 
 the violation of common right, natural and constitutional, proven to be of most fre¬ 
 quent occurrence in places named; and we ask such action at the hands of our repre¬ 
 sentatives and our government as shall investigate the full extent of the causes lead¬ 
 ing to this unnatural state of affairs and protect the people from its continuance, and 
 not only protect liberty and life, but enforce law and order. 
 
 It is intolerable to believe that with the increased representation of the Southern 
 States in Congress those shall not be allowed freely to cast their ballots upon whose 
 right to vote that representation has been enlarged. We believe no government can 
 prosper that will allow such a state of injustice to the body of its people to exist, any 
 more than society can endure where robbery and murder go unchallenged. 
 
 The occasion is, we think, a tit one for us to protest against a state of affairs thus 
 exhibited in those parts of the Union from which these negroes come, which is not 
 only most barbarous toward the negro, but is destructive to the constitutional rights 
 of all citizens of our common country. 
 
 Accompanying this memorial are numerous affidavits of the refugees 
 fully confirming all its statements. 
 
 As to the future of the exodus we can only say that every witness, 
 whose opinion was ashed upon this point, declared that it has only be¬ 
 gun, and that what we have seen in the past is nothing compared to 
 what is to come, unless there shall be a radical change on the part of 
 Democrats in the South. They say that the negro has no confidence 
 in the Democratic party, and that if a Democratic President shall be 
 elected there will be a general stampede of the colored race. 
 
 There is but one remedy for the exodus—fair treatment of the negro. 
 If the better class of white men at the South would retain the colored 
 laborer they must recognize his manhood and his citizenship, and re¬ 
 strain the vicious and lawless elements in tlier midst. If Northern Demo¬ 
 crats would check the threatened inundation of black labor into their 
 States, they must recognize the facts which have produced the exodus, 
 and unite with us in removing its causes. 
 
 We present in conclusion the following brief summary of the results 
 of the investigation: 
 
 First. This movement was not instigated, aided, or encouraged by 
 Republican leaders at the North. The only aid they have ever given 
 was purely as a matter of charity, to relieve the distress of the destitute 
 and suffering emigrants who had already come to the North. 
 
 Second. Not one dollar lias ever been contributed by anybody at the 
 North to bring these people from their homes. On the contrary, the 
 only contributions shown to have been made for such purpose made were 
 by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Company, a Democratic corporation, 
 which employed agents to work up the emigration from North Carolina, 
 paying $1 per head therefor. 
 
 Third. It is not proven that the emigrants are disatisfied in their new 
 homes and wish to return to the South. On the contrary, a standing 
 offer to pay their expenses back to the South has not induced more than 
 about three hundred out of thirty thousand to return. 
 
 Fourth. It is not proven that there is no demand for their labor at 
 the North, tor nearly all those who have come have found employment, 
 and even in Indiana hundreds of applications for them were presented 
 to the committee. 
 
 1' itth. It is wot proven that there is any sufficient reason for the grave 
 political apprehensions entertained in some quarters, for it was shown 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 XXV 
 
 by Mr. Dukehart, who sold all the tickets to those who came from North 
 Carolina, that not more than two hundred voters had gone to Indiana. 
 
 Sixth. The exodus movement originated entirely with the colored 
 people themselves, who for many years have been organizing for the 
 purpose of finding relief in that way, and the colored agents of such 
 organizations have traveled all over the South consulting with their 
 race on this subject. 
 
 Seventh. A long series of political persecutions, whippings, maimings, 
 and murders committed by Democrats and in the interest of the Dem¬ 
 ocratic party, extending over a period of fifteen years, has finally driven 
 the negro to despair, and compelled him to seek peace and safety by 
 flight. 
 
 Eighth. In some States a system of convict hiring is authorized by 
 law, which reinstates the chain-gang, the overseer, and the blood-liound 
 substantially as in the days of slavery. 
 
 Ninth. A system of labor and renting has been adopted in some parts 
 of the South which reduces a negro to a condition but little better than 
 that of peonage, and which renders it impossible for him to make a 
 comfortable living, no matter how hard he may work. 
 
 Tenth. The only remedy for the exodus is in the hands of Southern 
 Democrats themselves, and if they do not change their treatment of the 
 negro and recognize his rights as a man and a citizen, the movement 
 will go on, greatly to the injury of the labor interests of the South, if 
 not the whole country. 
 
 WILLIAM WINDOM. 
 
 HENRY W. BLAIR. 
 
 S. Rep. 693-in 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
T I. 
 
 PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE 
 
 TO INVESTIGATE THE CAUSES OF THE 
 
 REMOVAL OF THE NEGROES FROM THE SOUTHERN 
 STATES TO THE NORTHERN STATES. 
 
 Sessions held at Washington , beginning Monday, January 19, 1880. 
 
- 
 
 
 ' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . m 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
E XODUS CO M M ITT EE 
 
 FIRST DAY. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF THOMAS L. TULLOCK. 
 
 Washington, D. 0., Monday, January 19, 1880. 
 
 Thomas L. Tullock sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your name and present residence.—Answer. 
 My name is Thomas L. Tullock ; my residence is Washington City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here?—A. I have lived here about four¬ 
 teen years. 
 
 Q. From what State did you come when you came here?—A. I came 
 here from New Hampshire. 
 
 Q. What official position do you hold under the government at this 
 time?—A. Iam at present assistant postmaster of the city of Wash¬ 
 ington ; I was formerly, for eight years, collector of internal revenue 
 for the District of Columbia. 
 
 Q. Mr. Tullock, I find your name appended to a paper to which I de¬ 
 sire to call your attention, and to ask whether it is there by your au¬ 
 thority?—A. l r es,sir; thatis my name there; all I can say about it is, Mr. 
 Wall called upon me and informed me that I had been appointed one of 
 the auditors of a certain society, an emigrant society, it appeared; but I 
 have not attended any of the meetings of the society and know nothing of 
 its organization or management, any further than that I was told that it 
 was an organization for the purpose of helping needy colored emi¬ 
 grants ; but I have never seen any of the emigrants, and know nothing 
 about the matter. I was informed that I was chosen auditor, and that 
 is all. 
 
 Q. Do I understand that you never saw this paper before ?—A. I 
 have no recollection of ever having seen it. 
 
 Q. And were not apprised of its contents ?—A. I have not read it; I 
 did not sign it; I would not have signed my name by the designation 
 “ honorable.” Lt may be that 1 inquired something in regard to the or¬ 
 ganization, but I have not read the paper and did not know the tenor 
 of it. 
 
 Q. What was the position that you assumed on Mr. Wall’s recommen¬ 
 dation ?—A. I do not know that I assumed any particular position; he 
 informed me that I was appointed a member of the board of auditors ot 
 the Emigrant Aid Society. 
 
 Q. What were the duties of that office?—A. I presume that in any 
 expenditure that might be made the auditor would have to examine the 
 accounts, and certify to their correctness. 
 
 Q. How long ago was this information conveyed to you by Mr. A all, 
 that you had been appointed a member of the board of auditors ?—A , It 
 was perhaps two or threee months ago—some little time before these 
 
 1 EX 
 
2 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS h ROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 people, these colored emigrants, came to this city. I could not speak 
 definitely as to the exact time. 
 
 Q. Did you perform any duties as member of the board of auditors? 
 —A. 1 did not, with this exception : on two or three occasions Mr. Wall 
 brought me orders on the treasurer for me to sign—to authorize the 
 treasurer to advance some money for the purchase of tickets for certain 
 emigrants. That is all the official duty I have ever performed. 
 
 Q. To whom were these orders addressed?—A. To the treasurer of 
 the society. 
 
 Q. Who was the treasurer of the society?—A. The orders were ad¬ 
 dressed to Mr. A. M. Clapp; he was the treasurer. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the sums of money that you authorized him to 
 advance?—A. I could not state definitely; I think I have signed three 
 orders. 
 
 Q. Have you ah idea of the amount or the approximate amount of 
 each of these orders?—A. I could not state definitely; I think perhaps 
 they amounted to $400 in all. 
 
 Q. At what time were these orders given ?—A. 1 could not state defi¬ 
 nitely ; within the last six weeks, 1 think. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge as to what source that money was de¬ 
 rived from—that fund on which you drew ?—A. 1 have no knowledge 
 further than that a collection was taken up in the church w ith which I 
 am connected to aid the emigrants. They received about thirty or forty. 
 dollars from that source. 
 
 Q. What church is that ?—A. The Metropolitan Methodist Episcopal 
 Church of this city. Probably there were collections taken up in the 
 other churches ; I have understood there w ere. 
 
 Q. Was that the time when there was a large party of these people 
 in the city ?—A. Yes, sir. They were said to be here, and in a destitute 
 condition ; and I signed an order for the money to procure tickets for 
 their transportation. 
 
 Q. You yourself took no pains to ascertain their actual necessities, or 
 how' they came to be here destitute?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You acted upon the representation of others in wffiom you had con¬ 
 fidence?—A. Yes, sir. I cautioned the. president and secretary to take 
 proper vouchers when they purchased the tickets. The emigrants were 
 here, and had to leave that night; I had no time to investigate. 
 
 The chairman proposed to submit the paper to the committee as evi¬ 
 dence, but a member of the committee objected, and the chairman agreed 
 that it would be well first to identify the paper, and lay a proper founda¬ 
 tion for its introduction ; wdiicli was accordingly done by the following 
 brief examination of Mr. Wall: 
 
 TESTIMONY OF O. S. B. WALL. 
 
 O. S. B. Wall sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Wall, I wish you to identify this paper. State whether 
 you are familiar with this paper, and whether it is signed by authority 
 with your name and the names of others?—Answer. Those are my sen¬ 
 timents, and it was at my instance that this was gotten up. 
 
 Q. You recognize it as genuine ?—A. Yes, sir; it is a good one—good 
 sense, and I am not ashamed of it. 
 
 Q. We are not asking as to whether you are ashamed of it or not; 
 only whether you identify it as being a genuine paper issued by you ?— 
 A. A es, sir; that is the paper. (See appendix, Exhibit A.) 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 MR. TULLOCK RECALLED. 
 
 3 
 
 Q. Mr. Tullock, as I understand you, you did. not sigu this paper* 
 you signed no paper?—A. No, sir 5 except those three orders on the 
 treasurer. 
 
 Q. I mean no paper approving the organization ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And all you have ever had to do with the matter was that Mr. 
 Wall asked you to act, in connection with others, as a member of the 
 board of audit, and you consented. That is the way your name comes 
 to stand authorized here. Then, in pursuance of your duties, you signed 
 upon the treasurer three warrants, amounting in all to about $400, to 
 relieve these colored people that were stranded here for want of money 
 some six weeks ago.—A. That is the way, sir. 
 
 Q. Is this the first time you ever heard this paper read ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You had 110 knowledge of its contents before this ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know of its being circulated !—A. I had no knowledge 
 whatever concerning it. 
 
 Q. Then this is your first knowledge of this paper, and of your name 
 being appended to it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All you did was to sign these orders on the treasurer, amounting in 
 all to some $400 ?—A. Yes, sir ; as to the amount, the orders will show 
 for themselves; I only approximate. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. I do not understand you to disclaim sympathy with the move¬ 
 ment, but only to disclaim any practical connection with it?—A. No, 
 sir; I have attended none of its meetings and know nothing concerning 
 its organization or its management; 1 only permitted my name to be 
 used as one of the auditors of the society. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You do not affirm any knowledge of the facts stated in this paper— 
 of the facts on which it is based?—A. No, sir; as I have said, I had 
 nothing to do with the organization, and I have never discussed the 
 subject. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. W. RANKIN. 
 
 J. W. Rankin sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State where you reside.—Answer. In this city. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ?—A. A little over ten years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am pastor of the First Congre¬ 
 gational Church. 
 
 Q. Have you been pastor of it for that length of time'?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you looked at this paper ?—A. I have heard it read tor th e 
 first time this morning. 
 
 Q. State how your name comes to be attached to that paper.—A. I 
 was requested to act as auditor, and consented. 
 
 Q. Upon whose application ?—A. Upon the application of Mr. Wall. 
 
 Q. How long ago?—A. I cannot tell exactly; it was some time in the 
 fall—early last fall; a number of mouths ago, at least. 
 
 Q. Have you acted in the capacity of auditor ! —A. I have signed 
 probably four or five orders, as Mr. Tullock has. 
 
 Q. Orders upon whom ?—A. Upon Mr. Clapp, as treasurer. 
 
4 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Have you familiarized your mind with this subject of the Emigrant 
 Aid Society ?—A. No further than it has been a matter of discussion 
 in the papers. I have also seen some written letters from the South 
 and some from the North. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of the Emigrant Aid Society of this city; are you 
 acquainted with its operations ?—A. I am not. 
 
 Q. Have you never read or heard this paper before?—A. I have not; 
 I knew what the general drift and import of it was. 
 
 Q. Do you know how widely circulated this was, or any circular like 
 this?—A. I do not; I know nothing about it; I should presume it was 
 printed for circulation, but I have never seen it in circulation. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. W. CROMWELL. 
 
 J. AY. Cromwell sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your name and residence.—Answer. My name is J. VY. 
 Cromwell, and I reside in the city of Washington. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here?—A. About nine years. 
 
 Q. In what business are you engaged ?—A. I am a clerk in the • 
 Treasury Department. 
 
 Q. In what branch?—A. In the Sixth Auditor’s Office. 
 
 Q. How long have you been there?—A. Since November 2, 1S72. 
 
 Q. I find your name appended to this paper; please state to the com¬ 
 mittee how it comes to be there—whether by your authority or not.— 
 A. It is there by my consent. 
 
 Q. To whom did you give that consent?—A. To Mr. Adams, the sec¬ 
 retary of the society ; he requested me to act as one of the board of 
 audit. 
 
 Q. Have you acted in that capacity ?—A. I have. 
 
 Q. In what way?—A. In the way of signing drafts on the treasurer 
 of the society. 
 
 Q. Is that all you have done in this matter ?—A. That is all I have 
 done in that capacity. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with this paper ?—A. I have had a copy of it. 
 
 Q. You have read it ?—A. A portion of it; I have not read it from 
 beginning to end. 
 
 Q, Where were you born ?—A. In Virginia. 
 
 Q. How old were you when you left Virginia?—4. I was five years 
 old when I left it in the first instance. 
 
 Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To the city of Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. Have you lived in the North ever since?—A. No, sir; I lived in 
 the North up to 1865, wLen I returned to Virginia. 
 
 Q. AA ere you appointed to the Treasury from Virginia?—A. I was. 
 
 Q. From what part of Virginia ?—A. From the second Congressional 
 district—on competitive examination. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been in Indiana?—A. 1 have not. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been in North Carolina ?—A. I have bee > hree; 
 lour or five years ago I went on an excursion to Weldon ; that is all 
 I have ever been in North Carolina. 
 
 By Air. Blair: 
 
 Q. You say you returned to Virginia in ISG5 ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 5 
 
 Q. And returned to Washington, in 1872?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what part of Virginia did you reside ?—A. In Portsmouth. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in business there ?—A. I was engaged in teach¬ 
 ing in the public schools, and under some charitable associations from 
 the North. 
 
 Q. You say you became a clerk in the Treasury as the result of a com¬ 
 petitive examination !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many competitors did you have ?—A. Well, that day there 
 were fortv-five. 
 
 c/ 
 
 Q. To what position were you assigned ?—A. To a first class clerk¬ 
 ship. 
 
 Q. Do you hold the same position now?—A. No, sir; I hold a third- 
 class clerkship now. 
 
 Q. You say you authorized your name to be affixed to this paper, and 
 consented to act in the capacity of auditor?—A. I did. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything more of the reasons for the organization 
 of this society than appear there in the paper itself? What do you 
 know, anyway, about this exodus ?—A. The first I knew about the 
 exodus was by the telegraphic dispatches in the newspapers last spring. 
 In May a national conference of colored men was held in Nashville, 
 Term., which I attended, and of which I was secretary. There were 
 men present there from South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and in fact 
 all the Southwestern States. I was surprised to find such a unanimity 
 of feeling on the part of the conference in favor of emigration from the 
 Southwest. There was a positive furore about it; so much so that some 
 of the other business for which the conference was called could not be 
 attended to. 
 
 Q. What were the leading objects of that conference?—A. To dis¬ 
 cuss the status of the colored people of the South, and the oppressions 
 to which they were subjected, and to devise remedies for the evils un¬ 
 
 der which they labored. 
 
 Q. Was it a convention of colored delegates exclusively ?—A. It was 
 a conference of colored men exclusively. 
 
 Q. Well, go on and state what was done at that convention.—A. 
 A committee was appointed on the exodus, or on emigration, as it was 
 then termed. They considered the matter, and adopted a report which 
 counseled moderation on the part of the people. But from letters which 
 I have received from different portions of the South since then, and 
 from newspapers published in various parts of the South, I see that the 
 feeling has not abated at all, bu*t merely held in abeyance. 
 
 Q. You say there was a furore in that convention, or conference, on 
 the subject of emigration ; what was the origin or cause of that lurore ? 
 —A. Well, it had its origin in the complaints of the colored people. 
 
 Q. What complaints?—A. Principally that they did not have an 
 opportunity to get the results of their labor as they thought they should 
 have; they had been struggling there ever since emancipation, and 
 found themselves at the close of every year as far behind, as deeply in 
 debt, as at the beginning of the year; they thought it necessary to 
 make some sort of a change, and they thought they might find some 
 change in emigration. They then seemed to be bound tor Kansas. 
 
 Q. Was any other cause of complaint mentioned ! —A. Tes, sir; bull¬ 
 dozing. * T 
 
 Q. What do you mean by “bull-dozing''; what specific things . A. In 
 
 the first place, they complained of high land-rent, the exactions of t ic 
 country storekeepers, the unfairness of the merchants to vhorn the} 
 
6 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 sent their crops, and the political persecution to which they were sub¬ 
 jected. These were their principal complaints. 
 
 Q. How general were these complaints ; over how large an extent of 
 territory did these causes of complaint exist, according to the statements 
 of the gentlemen present at the convention ?—A. There were complaints 
 there from Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. 
 There were some few men present who spoke against the exodus, but 
 that seemed to get for them considerable unpopularity at the time. 
 
 Q. The point to which I wish to direct your attention is this: Was 
 there any difference of opinion as to the question of fact, or was the 
 difference of opinion only with regard to the remedies; were these causes 
 universally conceded to be true, or were they denied by some % —A. They 
 were universally conceded to be true; but there was a difference of 
 opinion as to the remedy. 
 
 Q. How large a convention was that?—A. It had a membership of 
 about one hundred and forty, I should say, in round numbers. 
 
 Q. Was there anything said at that convention, or developed there, cal¬ 
 culated to show any connection between this feeling at the 8011 th and any 
 political party at the North ?—A. There was not. I can state in regard 
 to that very positively, for it was stated in the first instance that it was 
 not to be considered in any respect a political conference. I recollect* 
 that one of the members present from Alabama offered a resolution in 
 regard to General Grant, and it was immediately tabled ; it was referred 
 to a committee, and no report ever made upon it. 
 
 Q. Was there manifested there any effort, open or secret, from any 
 Northern agency, to influence the action of the convention, either Re¬ 
 publican or Democratic ?—A. Not that I ever discovered. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything tending to show that this exodus move¬ 
 ment originated in political motives on the part of any Northern peo¬ 
 ple ?—A. 1 do not. 
 
 Q. You understand the only cause to be the complaints of the colored 
 people themselves?—A. Yes, sir; and because they failed to receive 
 that recognition to which they think they are entitled. 
 
 Q. About what was the numerical proportion of those in that conven¬ 
 tion who favored the exodus, as compared with those who did not?—A. 
 At least two-thirds of the whole number were in favor of the exodus. 
 
 By Mr. Windom: 
 
 Q. ^ hat remedy did the other one-third propose, if any ? — A. Some 
 thought that the colored people ought to wait a little longer, and appeal 
 to the local sentiment for more consideration; they thought that some¬ 
 thing might be secured in that way. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. r \ 0Q say that this was the first you knew of the exodus movement ? 
 —A. The first 1 knew of the movement was from what I read in the 
 newspapers last spring. 
 
 Q. You attended that convention?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you given in substance the proceedings of the convention ?— 
 A. 1 think so. A report of the proceedings was made out and printed. 
 I can send a copy to every member of the committee, if they desire. 
 
 Q. A 011 have known something of the progress of the exodus move¬ 
 ment since that time?—A. Yes, sir; something. 
 
 Q. Go on and state what you know about it, as if you were telling a 
 friend ; for that is what you are doing. Nobodv here is disposed to take 
 any technical advantage of anything you may say.—A. Since the ad¬ 
 journment of the conference, there have, I understand, been organiza- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 7 
 
 tions effected in some portions of the South. In Texas an organization 
 has been effected with what they call emigration commissioners. To my 
 surprise, I got a letter from one of them on Saturday, stating what he 
 was doing. 
 
 Q. Is there anything private in that letter?—A. Nothing whatever. 
 
 Q. Can we have it ?—A. Yes, sir. (See appendix, Exhibit B.) I might 
 state in this connection that I am publishing a paper here, and that 
 there have been communications in it from time to time from different 
 portions of the South in regard to the exodus. 
 
 Q. Go on and state what further you know about the exodus move¬ 
 ment.—A. Well, there has been an organized effort in Texas, of which 
 [ have spoken. A good many have left Louisiana and Mississippi; and 
 I have seen it stated that quite a number more are likely to leave in the 
 spring. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by u quite a number r ? That is quite indefi¬ 
 nite.—A. I could not state definitely. I would not be surprised if twice 
 as many left there next spring as left last spring. 
 
 Q. How many left last spring?—A. I should say that there went from 
 that section to Kansas about 8,000. 
 
 Q. And you understand that double that number intend going next 
 spring?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, from Mississippi and Louisiana ?—A. From contiguous 
 portions of those two States—from the counties along the Mississippi 
 River. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge or information as to the probable migra¬ 
 tion from Texas ?—A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. They are already migrating from there ?—A. Yes, sir ; I have seen 
 it stated in the newspapers that they are leaving there at the rate of 
 
 thousands a week. 
 
 Q. To what point do these Mississippi and Louisiana emigrants go ?— 
 A. Mostly to Kansas. 
 
 Q. You do not understand that any portion of them go to Indiana ?—A. 
 No, sir. When Perry and Williams, the two men at the head ol the 
 North Carolina exodus, first came here last fall, they were contemplating 
 going to Kansas too. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything further with reference to this exodus move¬ 
 ment in other States where there are organizations, or anything is being 
 done ?—A. In Tennessee they have an organization. 
 
 Q. How extensive an organization ?—A. I do not know how exten¬ 
 sive. There are two papers published there in the interest of this move¬ 
 ment. One of them advocates migration to Texas. I believe 1 have 
 one of these papers with me—yes, here it is. This paper, called the 
 Co-operative Emigrant, was started, I understand, tor that express pur¬ 
 pose: it is published at Clarksville, Term. 
 
 Q. Is that a portion of the State where the colored population is nu¬ 
 merous ?—A. I should presume so; I am uot thoroughly informed on 
 that point. Here is another paper which advocates emigration, pub¬ 
 lished at Nashville, Tenn.; it is called the Emigration Herald and > i o . 
 
 Q. Are the persons managing these papers colored gentlemen .—A. 
 
 Y r es, sir ; they are. 
 
 that 
 
 some extent—I do not know to what extent—by an association m Bos¬ 
 ton called the National Farmers’ Association. ^ 
 
 Q. Is that association devoted to the interests ot the colored csi 
 
8 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 cially, or of farming interests generally ?—A. It is devoted to encourag¬ 
 ing the exodus, I understand—not to Kansas, but to certain portions of 
 Texas. 
 
 Q. Does this Boston company own lands do.wn there?—A. I think 
 they have an interest in some lands lying in that portion of Texas 
 which is nearest the Indian Territory and Kansas, or between them and 
 Mexico. 
 
 Q. In that portion known as the u pan-handle” ?—A. I do not know 
 as to that. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any migration, on any general or extensive scale, 
 from Tennessee to any Northern State?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Has that Boston organization been started recently ?—A. It has 
 been in existence for over a year. 
 
 Q. Has it been in any sense a political organization ?—-A. Not at all, 
 as I understand it. 
 
 Q. It is entirely an industrial and business organization ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything else in the way of emigration being done in Ten¬ 
 nessee % —A. Not that 1 know of. 
 
 Q. In regard to these emigration organizations, what is the method 
 or plan upon which they are organized ?—xY You will find the plan set 
 forth in the proceedings of the national congress or conference at Nash¬ 
 ville that I tirst spoke of. 
 
 Q. Are these secret societies in any sense ?—A. O, no. I have seen 
 in some of the newspapers that there are secret societies in North Car¬ 
 olina, but they have nothing to do with these organizations. 1 know 
 nothing about them. 
 
 Q. Are you connected with any society for the promotion of the exo¬ 
 dus movement ?—A. No, sir, except this association here. 
 
 Q. Is that a secret society '?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any secret society organized for the promotion of 
 the exodus movement ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us any more in regard to the probable emigration from 
 Tennessee ?—A. I do not know that I can. 
 
 Q. As I understand you, the emigration from Tennessee is directed, in 
 part at least, to Texas l —A. No, I mean to sav that that paper which 
 is published in Tennessee—the Co-operative Emigrant—is devoted to 
 the encouragement of migration to Texas. To what extent that paper 
 is exerting an influence I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you know how large its circulation is?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the circulation of the other paper ?— 
 A. do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything regarding the migration from Alabama ?— 
 A. I know that quite a number have gone from Alabama to Southern 
 Illinois. 
 
 Q. About how many ?—A. I have seen a statement in a paper pub¬ 
 lished in Louisiana that at least 500 had secured homes in Southern Illi¬ 
 nois through the influence of a young man by the name of Gladden. 
 
 Q. Where does he live ?—A.’ At Cairo, Ilf. 
 
 Q- Is he a white man or colored ?—xY He is a colored man. 
 
 Q. A hat is his employment ?—A. Securing homes for these people. 
 
 Q. How old is lie l —A. I do not know his age. 
 
 Q. Is he an educated man ?—A. I presume he is. 
 
 Q- Before he went to securing homes for the colored people what was 
 his employment ?—A. A\ hen he was at Mobile he was agent for a paper 
 published in New Orleans by the name of the New Orleans Observer; 
 afterward he left and asked to be an agent for my paper. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 9 
 
 Q. You have seen him, then ?—A. No, sir; he asked by letter. I 
 wrote to him in answer to his letter, and it was quite a time before I 
 got a reply; then he wrote to me that he had moved to Illinois, and I 
 saw afterward in the Observer the statement that he had settled about 
 500 colored people in Southern Illinois. 
 
 Q. From what part of the South did they come ?—A. From Alabama, 
 I understood. 
 
 Q. From the southern portion of the State ?—A. I presume from the 
 southern portion ; he was from Mobile. 
 
 Q. Do you know over what route they came?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor whose means carried them there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about emigration from Georgia?—A. No ; 
 I don’t know anything about Georgia. 
 
 Q. Were there any delegates from Georgia in that convention ?—A. 
 There were. 
 
 Q. Did they make the same general complaint as to facts that the 
 others did?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you know nothing of any exodus from Georgia?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor any contemplated exodus ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor methods or plans to secure one?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any papers published in Georgia devoted to the 
 advocacy of emigration from that State ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of any such movement in Florida?—A. 
 Yes, sir; to my surprise I received information of such a movement on 
 Saturday; I know it because of an appeal published in a paper called 
 the Key W est Dispatch, from Leon County I think. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy of that paper?—A. I have not. 
 
 Q. What was the character of that appeal ?—A. It recited the same 
 ■ general facts that have been stated with regard to those other States, 
 and expressed the opinion that the only way to secure relief was by emi¬ 
 gration to some part of the North. 
 
 Q. Was anybody from Florida present at that national convention ?— 
 A. There was not. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything more about the matter in Florida?—A. I 
 do not. I know one of the men whose names are attached to the appeal. 
 
 Q. What is his name?—A. Pierce; the Rev. Charles Pierce. 
 
 Q. Where does he reside?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Will you ascertain his address, and furnish it to the chairman ?— 
 
 A. I will. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other prominent colored men in Florida who 
 are engaged in this movement ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us any more about the movement in Florida ?—A. I 
 
 cannot. 
 
 Q. What about South Carolina ?—A. I do not know anything about 
 South Carolina. 
 
 Q. What about Kentucky ?—A. I do not know anything about any 
 exodus from Kentucky. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that there is any probability of an exodus 
 from that State; have you heard any complaints from there . A. 
 know of no general complaint from there. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about Arkansas ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. What about Virginia, your own State; do you know anything 
 about an exodus movement from that State ?—A. I do not think it \ei \ 
 
 .ikely. 
 
 Q. What about North Carolina ?- 
 
 A. I know 
 
 nothing 
 
 more than I 
 
10 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 have said. I saw those two men from North Carolina, Williams and 
 Perry, when they first came here. 
 
 Q. You came in contact, I take it, more or less, with those people 
 who passed through Washington ?—A. Only to a very slight extent. I 
 saw Williams and Perry. When the emigrants were here I went to the 
 church where they were staying only twice. 
 
 Q. How many passed through here ?—A. I have no accurate idea. I 
 should suppose, perhaps, 800. 
 
 Q. Who were those people—families or usually only men ?—A. The 
 first batch, the one that passed through here on the 19th of November 
 (I think that was the date, because that was the day when the Thomas 
 statue was unveiled), consisted almost exclusively of men. 
 
 Q. How many were there in that company ?—A. I think there were 51. 
 
 Q. How many of these were men ?—A. Thirty-four, if I remember 
 rightly. 
 
 Q. And the rest were women ?—A. Women and children. 
 
 Q. Then that first company of emigrants consisted of 51 persons, of 
 whom 31 were men and the rest women and children ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were these men middle-aged, or young men mostly?—A. My im¬ 
 pression is that they were, in the main, middle-aged men. I think their 
 average age would be below forty. 
 
 Q. Where did they come from ?—A. They came from the neighbor¬ 
 hood of Kingston, N. C.» 
 
 Q. Were they from various portions of the State, or from a single 
 locality ?— A. My understanding was that they did not come from va¬ 
 rious portions of the State, but from the vicinity of Kingston. 
 
 Q, Where were they going?—A. To Indiana. 
 
 Q Did they state to you why they left North Carolina, aud why they 
 were going to Indiana ?—A. They said an agent of theirs had been out 
 to Indiana, and had returned; and they were going out in pursuance of 
 arrangements made by him. 
 
 Q. But why had they send out this agent? Why did they desire to 
 leave North Carolina?—A. On account of the disadvantages under 
 which they labored there. 
 
 Q. Of what disadvantages did they complain ?—A. They said they 
 could not get a sufficient amount of money for their work ; that was the 
 burden of their complaint. 
 
 Q. The trouble was not in getting work, but in getting pay for it?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What pay did they get?—A. I am not certain as to that. 
 
 Q. Did they complain of any lack of political privileges, or of indus¬ 
 trial necessities chiefly?—A. That was the chief motive, as I under¬ 
 stood it. 
 
 Q. Did any of them state, or did you learn in any way, that any po¬ 
 litical party was endeavoring to induce them to leave tor the purpose 
 of influencing the election in Indiana?—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. A as there no suggestion or secret hint of any such thing ?—A. 
 Not that I heard of. 
 
 Q. That was the first company, of 51; how many companies have 
 gone through ?—A. I cannot state the exact number ; I should say four 
 at least. 
 
 Q. A\ hen did the next one arrive here?—A. I cannot state exactly; 
 I should say in the early part of December. 
 
 Q. How many were there in that company ?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you see them ?—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did they make any stop in Washington ?—A. I do not know ; one 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 11 
 
 of the batches made no stop; but whether it was this one or not I am 
 not certain. 
 
 Q. Where were these from—this second company?—A. From the same 
 general locality as the other, I understood. 
 
 Q. How many of them were there ?—A. I do not know the exact num¬ 
 ber; between one and two hundred, I understood; I did not make any 
 note of it. 
 
 Q. How was the party made up—of about the same proportion of men, 
 women, and children as the former?—A. 1 do not know ; I did not see 
 them, and I never heard anything about that. 
 
 Q. When did the next company come?—A. About a week later a 
 large number of them came, and reported here about the same time. 
 
 Q. How many were there in that lot?—A. I heard many different 
 reports ; I should conclude about 300, including the children. 
 
 Q. They were men with their families?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were they going ?—A. To Indiana. 
 
 Q. Hid you hear any of them say that they were going there to help 
 carry the State for the Republicans?—A. O, no; they said they were 
 going there to get work, and to get money in pay for their work, and 
 not orders on the stores. 
 
 Q. Where did the money come from that carried them there?—A. 
 Much of it came from collections made in the colored churches. 
 
 Q. Where did the money come from that brought them here?—A. I 
 do not know. 
 
 Q. When they got here they were stranded, were they?—A. A r es, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not have to help the first lot?—A. We did help them 
 some. 
 
 Q. The large lot was out of money, and you helped them on ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Hid you raise enough money to send them clear through to In¬ 
 diana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Hid you buy their tickets clear through ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. W as anything done to help take care of them after they got there? 
 —A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Hid they receive any help except from these churches of which you 
 have spoken ?—A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. You have now spoken of three companies, I think; when did the 
 next lot come through here, and how many were there of them ?—A. I 
 heard of some—one lot—that came and went right on through. They 
 paid their own way ; I do not know how many there were of them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You say that when those two men, Perry and Williams, first came 
 here last fall in connection with this matter, it was their purpose to lead 
 this emigration right through to Kansas ?—A. It was. 
 
 Q. But they changed their purpose, and decided to settle their emi¬ 
 grants in Indiana ?—A. They did. 
 
 Q. What was the reason of that change ?—A. So far as I understood, 
 it was this : Kansas is a new State- 
 
 Q. Are you giving now your own reasons, or the reasons you got 
 from Perry and Williams ?—A. I am giving what was told them. 
 
 Q. Told them by whom ?—A. By different members of the aid so¬ 
 ciety. 
 
 Q. Who were they that told Perry and Williams and the rest to go 
 to Indiana instead of Kansas ?—A. I think the secretary of the asso¬ 
 ciation. 
 
12 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Who is he ?—A. I think Mr. Adams. 
 
 Q. Who else!—A. Well, I told them myself. 
 
 Q. Who else?—A. I do not know of any other person who told them. 
 
 Q. You think their original purpose was changed by this emigrant 
 aid society, of which you are a member '?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What reason did Mr. Adams give for changing the tide of emigra¬ 
 tion to Indiana instead of Kansas '?—A. That they could get work in 
 Indiana, and not iu Kansas. 
 
 Q. Why could they get work in Indiana and not in Kansas ?—A. Be¬ 
 cause Kansas is a new State; the people there are making their first 
 struggles, and are not in a condition to employ as largely as in an old 
 State like Indiana. 
 
 Q. Were you ever in Indiana ?—A. J was not. 
 
 Q. Then you did not know whether they want any laborers in In¬ 
 diana in the winter-time or not ?—A. I will give you my reason for 
 telling them to go to Indiana instead of Kansas. 
 
 Q. You have already given one reason.—A. Well, there was another 
 reason; I had received a circular from Indiana. 
 
 Q. By whom was that circular issued ?—A. By J. II. Walker, of Terre 
 Haute, Ind. 
 
 Q. What did Mr. Walker say in that circular ?—A. Be stated that 
 there was a great demand in Indiana for laborers ; he said he was born 
 in Virginia; he said it had been said that the climate of Indiana was 
 too cold tor colored men, but that it was not too cold for him ; and that 
 as many people as would come there could find good homes, and be paid 
 for their work, and their children would have an opportunity to go to 
 school. 
 
 Q. Had you this circular when you talked with Perry and Williams ? 
 —A. 1 had. 
 
 Q. Did you show it to them ?—A. 1 did. 
 
 Q. Had Mr. Adams received any circular from anybody in Indiana ? 
 —A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. That is all the information you had from Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in consequence of the representations of this circular issued 
 by J. II. Walker, of Terre Haute, Ind., the tide of emigration was stopped 
 in Indiana, instead of going on to Kansas ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did this circular state that there was any call for colored laborers 
 in Vigo County ?—A. 1 do not think it named auy counties. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much money was raised for each passenger from 
 Washington to Indiana '?—A. I think the railroad company charged $9 
 each. 
 
 Q. What railroad did they go on ?—A. The Baltimore and Ohio. 
 
 Q. That company took them at reduced rates ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A\ ho was managing the matter for the road ?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Dukehart, passenger agent for that road?—A. 
 1 have seen him. 
 
 Q. Did you see him in connection with this matter ?—A. I did, once. 
 
 Q. Was he then making this arrangement to carry these negroes to 
 Indiana ?—A. 1 do not know whether he was or not. 
 
 Q. You understand that the road made reduced rates, and took them 
 at $9 a head ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the money raised here was enough to comply with that 
 arrangement ?-—A. Yes, sir; that was it. 
 
 Q. You have shown us a paper, called the Co-operative Emigrant, pub¬ 
 lished at Clarksville, Tenn.; I see that a Dr. A. Aray, is the editor ; do 
 you know him personally ?—A. I do not. • 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 13 
 
 Q. Is be a colored man ?—A. lie is. 
 
 Q. I wish to read to you an article, copied into this paper, with the 
 manifest approval of the editor, from the Dallas (Tex.) Herald. (See 
 appendix, Exhibit C.) Had you read that article t —A. I had not; I had 
 but jlist received the paper. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Are articles like this commonly published by colored men in their 
 papers, to encourage migration to the north ? 
 
 Another member of the committee suggested that the Co-operative 
 Emigrant was published for the purpose of encouraging emigration from 
 Tennessee to Texas, and that is south. Some discussion arose as to the 
 limitations of the investigation ; resulting in a conclusion to give it the 
 widest latitude consistent with a fair and not a technical rendering of 
 the resolution directing the investigation, in order to get at the whole 
 truth. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. About this Nashville convention or conference, how was it called ? 
 Who called it ? From whom did you get invitations or notices to attend? 
 —A. The matter of calling a national conference of colored people had 
 been discussed lor a year or more. 
 
 Q. You mean in the colored newspapers?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So there was nobody in authority as an organization that called 
 it?—A. O, no; they came together voluntarily at a time agreed upon; 
 about a hundred and fifty men were present at the time and place which 
 had been previously appointed by some one. 
 
 Q. You don’t know who that “some one” was?—A. O, yes, sir; I 
 know who that some one was. Ex-Governor Pinch back and myself 
 drew up a circular letter, some time in January—-just about a year ago 
 now—requesting a few men to meet us at a certain house in this city, 
 and there the plan of calling a national conference was discussed and 
 decided. That was before the colored people had beguu to leave any 
 of the Southern States to any considerable extent. 
 
 Q. And when you got there you found about two-thirds of those 
 present in favor of emigration as a remedy for the evils under which 
 they suffered, and about one-third opposed to it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was no division on the question of fact, as to whether these 
 evils existed?—A. None, whatever. 
 
 Q. This paper, published at Clarksville, Tenn., is published in the in¬ 
 terests of a land association in Boston, which owns land in Texas, and 
 wants to get laborers to go there and open it up?—A. That is the con¬ 
 clusion I have reached. 
 
 Q. And this paper is opposed to the northern exodus—to emigration 
 northward?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Cromwell, you are an intelligent man of your race, and 
 have mingled considerably with others of your race; now please state 
 to the committee what is the scope and purpose of this emigration move¬ 
 ment ; does it embrace the entire colored population of the South, with 
 a design to transport them elsewhere, or does it embrace only a part, and, 
 if so, how large a part ?—A. There is 110 movement, except in so far as 
 it is entered into by persons, independently of each other, in their re¬ 
 spective localities. No colored man and no number of colored men 
 could ever have orginated this movement. It was spontaneous, so far 
 as its origin was concerned. 
 
 Q. But it seems to have been easy to change it from Kansas to In¬ 
 diana?—A. I hope you would not call a movement of seven or eight 
 
14 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 hundred persons, from one or two counties in North Carolina, a change 
 in the emigration movement in general, when others are going to Kan¬ 
 sas, and others to Illinois. 
 
 Q. What counties in North Carolina is this movement from, do you 
 understand?—A. I dofft know that I can name the counties; I think 
 the most of them are from the neighborhood of Kingston, Lenoir 
 County. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. An article has been read from this paper, representing the suffer¬ 
 ing, the destitution, in some cases the starvation, to which emigrants 
 are subjected in going to Kansas; is this sort of tiling pretty generally 
 reported throughout the South ? Is it well and widely known, through 
 those who have gone back, and through the papers of the South, that 
 there is a great deal of suffering and hardship attending this emigra¬ 
 tion?—A. 1 do not know that I understand your question. 
 
 Q. Are the reports that the emigrants suffer from hunger and cold 
 and bad treatment from the whites at the North—are these reports 
 carried back to the colored people of the South, or not?—A. Yes, sir; 
 they know of it, through the papers. 
 
 Q. You have no doubt that the colored people of Tennessee have ac¬ 
 cess to this information ?—A. Certainly they have. 
 
 Q. And the colored people of Mississippi and of Louisiana, also ?— 
 A. I presume so. 
 
 Q. And yet, notwithstanding that, I understand you to say that 1(3,000 
 colored people are intending to leave Louisiana and Mississippi, in place 
 of the 8,000 who left last year ?—A. They discount those statements 
 somewhat; they believe some portions of them. 
 
 Q. You have no doubt that the colored people of the South generally 
 understand that they must undergo some hardship and some ill-treat¬ 
 ment in making the change?—A. Certainly they do. 
 
 Q. And notwithstanding that, this emigration is on the increase?— 
 A. It is largely on the increase. 
 
 Q. These people understand this, that they are coming north to get 
 a better living, to secure civil rights, and to educate their children ?— 
 A. That is it. 
 
 Q. What else are they coming north for ?—A. I do not know of any¬ 
 thing else. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you have never heard that any politi¬ 
 cal party of any section of the North was at the bottom of the move¬ 
 ment ?—A. I never have. 
 
 By Mr. WlNDOM: 
 
 Q. \ou mentioned, a while ago, that at the Nashville convention one 
 oi the complaints that were made was in regard to political persecution 
 or proscription; what was the character ot that political persecution or 
 proscription ? from what party did it come?—A. From the Demo¬ 
 cratic party. 
 
 Q. A\ hat was the character of that persecution or proscription ; in 
 what did it consist ?—A. In “intimidating” them, as it was generally 
 
 expressed; in preventing them from expressing their will at the elec¬ 
 tion. 
 
 Q. By what means—was anything said as to that ; or was it not stated 
 specifically ?— A. It was stated iu general terms ; the term “ bulldozing” 
 was quite generally used. 
 
 Q. The chairman has read an extract from this paper, the Co-opera¬ 
 tive Emigrant, which you say represents the interests of the “ National 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 15 
 
 Farmers’ Association,” having its headquarters in Boston. Now I wish 
 to read an extract from this paper. The extract is copied from the 
 Philadelphia Times, and is as follows. (See appendix, Exhibit D.) The 
 chairman has also suggested that the article read by him from this 
 paper is indicative of the sentiments of the colored people. I wish to 
 read another article, quoted by this paper from the Indianapolis Leader, 
 a paper in Indiana, edited, I understand, by a colored gentleman, and 
 giving the cause of the exodus. I wish to see whether you agree with 
 him. (See appendix, Exhibit E.) 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Does that, leaving out the unfortunate and rather harsh expres¬ 
 sions, convey the general idea that the southern colored people have l — 
 A. I think it does. 
 
 By Mr. Vance : 
 
 Q. In that convention at Nashville, where colored men were com¬ 
 plaining of their treatment, one complaint that you mentioned was high 
 rent of land; did you hear any allegation that colored people were 
 charged any higher rent than white people were f—A. (), no, sir; they 
 complained of relatively high rent, as compared with production. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any charge of discrimination against black men and 
 in favor of white men ? or were their complaints simply that the general 
 market value of land-rents was too high, and the general habit of store¬ 
 keepers was to charge too much ?—A. I do not know of any special ex¬ 
 pression upon that point. 
 
 Q. Do you know Williams and Perrv ?—A. When I see them. 
 
 Q. Do you know where Williams came from ?—A. He came from 
 North Carolina, I understand. 
 
 Q. Do you know what organization he is the agent of?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. He is some kind of an agent, is he not!—A. I understand that he 
 is some kind of an agent. 
 
 Q. When he came here did he not represent himself to be the agent 
 of a number of colored people in North Carolina who were desirous of 
 emigrating!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is he supported while engaged in this work ?—A. I do not 
 know. 
 
 Q. Who pays his expenses ?—A. 1 do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that he gets so much per head for every emigrant 
 he secures ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that he gets a commission from the railroad for 
 every colored passenger he puts on the train ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. He must be supported in some way.—A. I suppose so. 
 
 Q. I am glad to hear you say that none of the colored people from 
 North Carolina, at that Nashville convention, complained of political 
 wrongs.—A. I said that was not the burden of their complaint. They 
 complained also of the laws relating to landlord and tenant, which pre¬ 
 vented them from selling anything they had raised before their rent was 
 paid ; if they raise anything for themselves, they are prohibited from 
 selling it without the consent of the owner of the land. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything, from your association with colored men 
 from North Carolina, or from anything published in the papers, as to 
 what has been the general condition of the colored people in that State 
 for the past four or live years!—A. I should conclude, from what I can 
 learn, that their condition is improving in the larger towns and cities. 
 
 Q. Do you know Bishop Hood, the bishop of the Colored Methodist 
 
16 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Church in that State?—A. I do not know him personally ; 1 know his 
 reputation. 
 
 Q. Did you ever read the proceedings of the conference of colored 
 men at Salisbury, in 1878?—A. I might have done so; I do not now 
 remember anything particularly in reference to it. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that a Democratic legislature appointed colored 
 justices of the peace in various parts of the State ?—A. I think I have 
 so understood. 
 
 Q. Do you know that recently asylums have been built for the insane 
 and the blind and the deaf and dumb among the colored people, and 
 normal schools for the education of colored teachers?—A. I understand 
 that to be the case. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that we have military companies, armed and 
 equipped, composed of colored men?—A. I understand so in towns and 
 cities. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that the colored people recently held a State 
 Industrial Exhibition at Raleigh—the first ever held in the United 
 States by colored people?—A. O, no, sir; there were several held in 
 the United States before that; one in Tennessee, at Nashville ; one at 
 Lexington, Ky.; and one at Wilmington, N. C. 
 
 Q. Those were not State fairs?—A. No, sir; not State fairs. . 
 
 Q. Then you judge that the condition of the colored people in North 
 Carolina is improving ?—A. In the towns and cities, yes. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q,. I notice that you are careful to qualify jour answer by saying, 
 “in the towns and cities.” How is it with regard to the rest of the 
 State?—A. There has been less proper payment of labor in the country 
 districts than in the towns and cities; that is why I make the qualifi¬ 
 cation. 
 
 By Mr. Vance : 
 
 Q. What do you mean by “ proper payment of labor” ? Do you mean 
 prices?—A. I refer to both prices and manner. I understand that it 
 is the general custom (at least those men who came here from North 
 Carolina said so) to pay them in orders on the stores, and not in 
 money. The same thing is sometimes done, to a certain extent, in my 
 own State of Virginia. 
 
 Q. Wherein does that work any hardship ?—A. When a laborer is 
 paid in orders on the stores he cannot divide his fund and say, u so 
 much I will use for this purpose” and “ so much for that” and u so 
 much for another.” All has to be taken up at once, in such goods as 
 are in the store, whether he wants them or not, and at such prices as 
 the storekeeper chooses to fix: and this practice affords a storekeeper 
 an opportunity to charge a high price for his goods. 
 
 Q. Is it to be understood that he embraces the opportunity ?—A. 
 That is the impression prevalent; it is very natural that he should do 
 so. 
 
 Q. You say the laborers are paid by orders ; the owner or the lessor 
 of the land, for whom the colored man works, gives him an order on the 
 store ; the man goes there with his order, and takes up the necessaries 
 of life, which he is obliged to have. Does he take them up in advance 
 of the sale of his crops ?—A. 1 do not know whether in advance or not; 
 1 have simply been told by them that that is the method of payment. 
 
 Q. The gist of the complaint is, that there is very little ready money 
 paid them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 17 
 
 Q. You say they are not allowed to sell anything until the main crop 
 is harvested ; what do you mean by that ?—A. I am told that such is the 
 case. 
 
 Q. What are the principal crops they raise there ?—A. Cotton and 
 corip arid in certain portions of the State, peanuts; and in some sec¬ 
 tions—in the northern part, about Hendersonville, and Danville, and 
 Greensborough—tobacco. 
 
 Q Do you understand that they are prohibited from raising and using 
 vegetables and the ordinary necessaries of life that may bo appropri¬ 
 ated by the family during the season ?—A. i mean that they are pro¬ 
 hibited from selling, not from using. 
 
 Q. They have the right to use whatever they can appropriate?—A. I 
 understand so ; but cannot sell anything, so as to get any income from it. 
 
 Q. You say that when the year ends, and the colored man comes to 
 settle up, there is nothing left; how did you understand the colored man 
 supported his family during the season, while the crop was growing ?— 
 A. That has always been a mystery to me. 
 
 Q. Do you know how they get such support as they have ?—A. 1 sup¬ 
 pose that they get an advance from the lessor. 
 
 Q. That is, an order on the storekeeper is advanced to them ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that leaves them at the mercy of the storekeeper ?—A. Yes, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You say that you heard no complaints of any discrimination in the 
 matter of rents as between the white population and the colored popu¬ 
 lation ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that the white laborer lived on orders given 
 him in advance, upon his work, the same as the colored laborer?—A. In 
 the Southwestern States there is no white laboring population, as a class, 
 like the colored population. 
 
 Q. llow is it in North Carolina?—A. ft is different in different parts 
 of the State; in the western section of North Carolina it is quite differ¬ 
 ent from the east. 
 
 Q. Is this emigration from the eastern or the western section ?—A. I 
 should call it the eastern. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that there is a white laboring population in 
 that section of North Carolina in competition with the negroes :—A. I 
 think not. 
 
 Q. You understand that there is no discrimination between the white 
 and the colored population as regards the manner in which they are 
 paid for their labor?—A. It is not easy to see how there could be, when 
 there is no white laboring population to discriminate in favor of or 
 against. Is it anything very extraordinary that there should be no dis¬ 
 crimination where there is only one kind of people ? 
 
 (Mr. Vance objected to witness inserting an argument into his testi¬ 
 mony.) 
 
 Mr. Blair. You asked a question, and helms answered it, that is all. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Was there anything in his circular to indicate whether that man 
 Walker, of Terre Haute, was a white man or a colored man ?—A. He 
 was a colored man. 
 
 2 Ex 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 m 
 
 TESTIMONY OF A. B. CARLETON. 
 
 A. B. Carleton sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. At Terre Haute, Ind. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. I am a lawyer. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with J. H. Walker?—A. I am, very well. 
 
 Q. Do \ou know what official capacity he holds under the general 
 government?—A. Ido not know what is the name of it; it is con¬ 
 nected with the postal service; he carries the mail between the depot 
 and the post office; he is an employ 6 of the general government. 
 
 Q. State what the negro population is in Vigo County, of the old set¬ 
 tlers, who have been there as long as anybody else.—A. It is 1,500 or 
 2.000—upwards of 1,500 anyway. 
 
 Q. How many votes do they cast at the election in our county elec¬ 
 tion ?—A. Between 300 and 400. 
 
 Q. Are you tolerably well acquainted with the colored people there? 
 —A. Pretty well. 
 
 Q. Have you, since this immigration movement into Vigo County 
 commenced, had any conversation with any of the colored men them¬ 
 selves, the old settlers, on this subject ?—A. 1 have, to some extent. 
 
 Q. State their opinions of favor or disfavor toward the movement.— 
 A. 1 have heard old colored residents express themselves in about this 
 way : they said there were enough poor negroes here now, without the 
 immigration of any more from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Is there any sentiment so far as you know in favor of this immi¬ 
 gration to our State, either in Vigo County, or any place else ?—A. I 
 know of nobody who favors it, except J. II. Walker. 
 
 Q. In regard to farm labor, have you any knowledge of any demand 
 for farm laborers at this time of the year, in that part of our State?— 
 A. I have no knowledge of it; and I am satisfied that there is no de¬ 
 mand ; 1 have conversed with old residents there, and they do not know 
 of any demand for them. 
 
 Q. Are Walker’s opportunities and position such as to enable him to 
 judge of such a demand, or to be the instrument of communicating the 
 wishes of the farm community?—A. There is nothing in his calling to 
 indicate that, further than that he is a busy kind of a man—he is an 
 active Republican politician ; he might make inquiries. 
 
 . Q. You acquaintance iii that vicinity is pretty general?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If there is any such demand, you are not aware of it?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Have you talked much with farmers on this subject ?—A. To some 
 extent. The fact is, ever since 1874 we have had hard times in Indiana; 
 there is very little amelioration even now, when there is said to be a 
 “ boom in business. I have known, from people coming to make in¬ 
 quiry where they could get employment, that there is an oversupply of 
 labor. Of late, since there has been bo some extent a revival in the 
 iron business, there has been some inquiry for foundery-men ; but for 
 farm labor there is no demand in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether these men who have recently migrated out 
 there have found employment ?—A I am unable to say. I kuow of one 
 colored man who got employment; I had a little conversation with him 
 m the train. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 19 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the colored people already residiug there 
 have exerted themselves to find employment for the new comers, and 
 to take care of them?—A. Yes, sir; their efforts have been taxed to 
 the utmost to find employment for them. 
 
 Q. About how many colored men have you heard express opposition 
 to their coming?—A. I do not know; perhaps four or five. 
 
 Q. They all put it on the ground you have mentioned, that there was 
 not employment for them ?—A. Yes, sir; they said there were too many 
 negroes here already. 
 
 Q. This Mr. Walker, you say, was employed in carrying the mail from 
 the depot to the post-office?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not that work done under contract with the department?—A. 
 My understanding is that it is an appointment; he has had the place, I 
 think, some six years or more. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any demonstrations of opposition on the part of 
 the white people of Indiana to the colored emigrants stopping there?— 
 A. None to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the demonstration at Shelbyville?— 
 A. Nothing, only what 1 saw about it in the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about their being refused to speak in a 
 court-house at any place in Indiana?—A. I do not. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. There has been some white migration to Indiana from the North 
 and other points, has there not?—A. Not very largely. 
 
 Q. But there has been something of it—German, and Irish, and Scan¬ 
 dinavian, Nc.?—A. We have no Scandinavian population at all in In¬ 
 diana. I am not aware of any immigration into Indiaua that amounts 
 to anything, except colored. 
 
 Q Then the growth of Indiana, the increase of the population, seems 
 to have come to a stop, except as to the colored population?—A. There 
 is no general migration to Indiaua from any State. 
 
 Q. There is some emigration from the State, I presume?—A. I sup¬ 
 pose there is some, to the Southwest, Texas, &c. 
 
 By Mr. Window : 
 
 Q. Is it the general wish of the people of Indiana, as you understand it, 
 not to have any more people come there ?—A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Is it the general wish not to have auy more laborers there?—A. I 
 do not think there is any such wish as that. 
 
 Q. Only they do not want auy more colored people to come there?— 
 A. They do not desire to have an exodus of people of any color come 
 there, unprovided for, in competition with the people already there. 
 Where large numbers of colored people come into a State, in a destitute 
 condition, it is not very agreeable in my judgment, to the people there, 
 especially when it is generally believed, and it is the pretty common be¬ 
 lief, that they are brought there for the purpose of voting a particular 
 ticket. 
 
 Q. Is not that, then, the only objection, the impression on the part of 
 the Democratic party that these colored people have come there to vote ? 
 —A. That is it in part; but, besides that, there is a general feeling I 
 think, without distinction of party, that it is not a good thing for a large 
 number of people to come into a community at once, and unprovided 
 for. 
 
 Q. There has been no violent opposition to their coming that you are 
 aware of?—A. They have been treated kindly, so far as I know. 
 
20 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Has there been any violent opposition anywhere, except at Shelby- 
 ville?—A. None that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. You say you talked with one of these men from North Carolina ; 
 did you talk with any more than one ?—A. There was only one that I had 
 any lengthy conversation with. 
 
 Q. What employment did he get?—A. He was at Indianapolis. I 
 asked him where he was from, and he said from North Carolina ; he 
 named the county $ it was Monroe or Marion, I think. I learned from 
 him that he had been employed by a certain doctor, whose name he gave, 
 who lived in Amo, Hendricks County, Indiana. He told me that there 
 were twenty-five families in the party that came from North Carolina 
 with him. They were at once quartered at Indianapolis, and this doctor 
 had employed him. After this conversation with the colored man, I 
 went back and took my seat. Then this doctor, whose name I cannot 
 give, came and sat down by me and began to talk. He is a doctor who 
 lives at Amo, and has a farm about two miles out of town. He wanted 
 to know if I belonged to the Voorhees investigating committee, and I 
 told him no. I learned from him that he had employed this colored 
 man at Indianapolis, and was taking him home to give him employment 
 during the winter. 
 
 Q. Did this colored man assign any reason for coming to Indiana, 
 or why Indiana was such an enticing place for colored people?—A. Yes. 
 He said he had been told that in Indiana he could get work, and get 
 paid a dollar and a half a day. He said he was a Republican. I asked 
 him if he was coming out to Indiana to vote. By that time several per¬ 
 sons had gathered around and he had become more on his guard, and 
 his reply was, u The Democrats say so.” 
 
 Q. is farm labor in Indiana worth a dollar and a half a day now?— 
 A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it worth the half of that ?—A. No, sir. That same day I saw 
 a Mr. Baird, who is running a wood sawing machine on the railroad and 
 employs several hands. He said that more than twenty white men had 
 sought employment of him recently and were willing to work for fifty 
 cents a day, but he could not give them employment. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Have you any information as to the number of colored men that 
 have come into Indiana during this exodus ?—A. It would be a very 
 rough guess that I could make. 
 
 On motion t he committee adjourned to meet at 10 a. in., January 21, 
 1880. 
 
 SECOND DAY. 
 
 Washington, D. C., Wednesday, January 21, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. Present, the chairman 
 and all the members. The taking of testimony was resumed as follows: 
 
 O. S. B. Wall, recalled, sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your name, age, and residence.—Answer. My name is 
 O. S. B. Wall 5 my residence is on the corner of Seventh and Boundary 
 streets, near the Howard University grounds. Did you ask me my age? 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. I am about fifty-two years old now. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 21 
 
 Q. Where were you bom?—A. In Richmond County, North Caro¬ 
 lina, near the Peedee. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here in Washington City?—A. I came 
 here in the fall of 1861; staid here till the spring of 1865; then I was 
 commissioned by President Lincoln to be a colonel, and went away and 
 staid on duty among the freed men in South Carolina, in Charleston, 
 until early in 1866, when my regiment was mustered out and I was mus¬ 
 tered out also. Then I went back to Ohio, my home before coming 
 to Washington, and staid there awhile; in 1867 I was sent as a delegate 
 to represent Northern Ohio in the national colored convention in that 
 State. 
 
 Q. When did you come from North Carolina to Ohio?—A. In 1830; 
 I was sent there by my father to a Quaker school in Warren County, 
 about fiftv miles above Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. Then you were appointed from Ohio, by President Lincoln, to what 
 position?—A. I was appointed to a captaincy by Secretary Stanton on 
 the 3d of March, 1865. 
 
 Q. Just about the termination of the war?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long were you in the Army?—A. I was in the Army a year, 
 because the organization to which I was attached was not disbanded. 
 
 Q. Did you hold any position under the government after that ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; as I said,when Icameback here in 1867,General Howardsought 
 me and asked me to become an employe in the Freedmen’s Bureau. 
 
 Q. And you accepted the position ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long were you in the employment of the Freedmen’s Bureau? 
 —A. Without the data at my hands, I could not say. 
 
 Q. You can state approximately ?—A. I should say some three or 
 four years. 
 
 Q. After you went out of that service, what other service were you 
 engagediu?—A. 1 think that then Mr. Bowen and others petitioned 
 the Attorney-General to commission me justice of the peace. I suppose 
 they thought they would try the novelty of having a negro in the judi¬ 
 ciary service, and I was the first black fellow appointed to be a justice 
 of the peace in the District. After that the board of police commis¬ 
 sioners made me a police magistrate. 
 
 Q. How long did you serve as justice of the peace ?—A. About nine 
 years altogether. 
 
 Q. Have you occupied any other official position since you were justice 
 of the peace ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are now engaged in the practice of the law ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you engaged in any other business ?—A. None, except that I 
 collect and do everything that pertains to that sort of business. 
 
 Q. When did you become president of the Emigrant Aid Society?— 
 A. I could not state exactly ; a year or a year and a half ago. 
 
 Q. Where was this Emigrant Aid Society organized of which you are 
 the president ?—A. At the house of Mr. Adams, the secretary. 
 
 Q. Where was that?—A. On the corner of Fourteenth and V streets. 
 
 Q. In this city ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is this the parent society, or are there branches of this Emigrant 
 Aid Society ?—A. This is the parent society and the only one. 
 
 Q. You mean there are no branches ?—A. None that I know of; there 
 are no auxiliaries that I know of, excepting in this sense, that we were 
 organized first, and that others, which were organized afterward, showed 
 a deference to us, being the first organized, and being located at the na¬ 
 tional capital; we have never given any authority to any other society 
 in any other State. 
 
22 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Are there any other similar societies, to your knowledge, in the 
 United States?—A. I learn by the papers and by hearsay that there 
 are a number of them. 
 
 Q. State where they are, so far as you know.—A. There are one or 
 two in Kansas, I have heard. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts in Kansas?—A. I said—what I am telling you now 
 is only what I have heard said or have read in papers. I know I have 
 heard it said that there were two or three in Kansas, I think near the 
 Missouri line. Then I have heard or have read, I do not know which, 
 that there were some in Indiana, and some in Pennsylvania, New York, 
 and other places, which I cannot now recall. I have heard this in a 
 sort of general way. 
 
 Q. There are several in Indiana, you say ?—A. I have heard so or 
 read so, or both. 
 
 Q. Where are those located that are in Indiana?—A. I think I have 
 heard that there is an organization at Greencastle. I understand there 
 is one at Indianapolis. 1 think I have read ot another at some other 
 place in Indiana, but as to that I will not undertake to be explicit. 
 
 Q. Have you corresponded with these other similar societies of which 
 you have spoken?—A. No,’sir. 
 
 Q. nave you had no correspondence with them either by letter or 
 otherwise?—A. Do you mean as president of our organization ? 
 
 Q. I mean in any way—you or your society.—A. 1 have not; our sec¬ 
 retary has attended to the correspondence. 
 
 Q. My question was intended to embrace your society; has your 
 society had any such correspondence?—A. I think we have, but I will 
 not be positive as to that. I think Mr. Adams has spoken to me a 
 number of times about receiving communications from other societies 
 and answering them. I have notread the communications, though. 
 
 Q. Where is Mr. Adams now ?—A. lie is away out West somewhere; 
 I do not know exactly where; the last I heard of him lie was near Van¬ 
 couver’s Island, I think; at least, way up in Washington Territory. 
 
 Q. How long do you expect him to stay there?—A. I cannot say. I 
 have understood that he means to make a permanent home somewhere 
 out there. 
 
 Q. Has your society tilled his place as secretary ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who is your secretary now?—A. A young man by the name of 
 Fearing, a clerk in the Treasury Department. 
 
 Q. Is he white or colored ?—A. lie is a very handsome mulatto. 
 
 Q. Has he the records of your society ?—A. Yes, sir; so far as we have 
 any. The fact is, we have not much records about it. 
 
 Q. So far as you have any, are they in his custody or yours?—A. In 
 his,, sir, as secretary of the society. I would state, as 1 said before, that 
 we have very little in the way of records. We have been going on very 
 much as the English Government does, without any written constitu¬ 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Such letters as you have received, have you been in the habit of 
 keeping them or destroying them ?—A. I have'quite a number, mostly, 
 1 should say, not official but personal. 
 
 Q. Have you any from the society at Greencastle, Ind.?—A. I have 
 not. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the names of any parties belonging to 
 that organization ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of a man there by the name of Langsdale?—A. 
 
 have heai d of him. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any correspondence with him ?—A. I never did. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. nave any copies of bis paper been sent to you ?—A. Mr. Adame 
 may have shown me some ; I will not be positive. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the parties composing the organization 
 at Indianapolis?—A. No, sir. The Leader is sent me, a colored paper,; 
 and trom my recollection, about the time the society was organized, the 
 name of a man called Bagby or Bagley occurred among the officers. 
 That is about all the name I remember. 
 
 Q. Were you ever in Indiana?—A. O, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what point in Indiana?—A. In the northern portion mostly. I 
 was raised only sixty miles east from Richmond County. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted in Indianapolis?—A. No, sir; but I know 
 persons theic with whom I was raised ; we were boys in the academy 
 together. 
 
 Q. Who are they ?—A. Dr. Harvey’s sons. 
 
 Q. Were there any others?—A. I cannot think of any others. 
 
 Q. How long since you were at Indianapolis ?—A. I never was at In¬ 
 dianapolis; my acquaintance was mostly in Northern Indiana. 
 
 Q. How long since you were in Indiana at all?—A. Not for several 
 
 years. 
 
 Q. Yon say you have no written constitution?—A. Well, sir, that is 
 partly correct and partly not. We have a sort of a constitution, but 
 we have not the regular machinery, such as people usually have to govern 
 literary or other organizations. 
 
 Q. What sort of machinery have you?—A. We simply have so much, 
 of a constitution, without any preamble to it, as sets forth that we are 
 to have a president and vice president, and secretary, and a treasurer, 
 I think ; but we do not go on with a number of different articles defin¬ 
 ing just in what way the objects of our society shall be carried out. 
 
 Q. Is there a record of that constitution ?—A. 1 cannot say; I have 
 never seen anything of it since the evening when we adopted it, over a 
 year ago. 
 
 Q. What are the provisions regarding membership, or didn’t you have 
 any ?—A. I doubt whether we ever had any. 
 
 Q. Is there a fee for joining ?—A. I think not; I am not positive as 
 to that, but I think not. We simply wanted to work and get along 
 with as little organization to govern us as we could. 
 
 Q. Did the officers of this organization receive any pay for their serv¬ 
 ices ?—A. Not any. 
 
 Q. On what source do you rely for money to put into your treasury ?— 
 A. On voluntary contributions from good people of the country who 
 sympathize*with us. 
 
 Q. You simply solicit charity on this subject?—A. That is all ; but 1 
 do not call it charity exactly ; it is a contribution. 
 
 Q. You have said that there are no branches; but is there any organ¬ 
 ization of this kind in North Carolina?—A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Dave you had any communication with anybody in North Carolina 
 on the subject ?—A. I have had no communication with anybody in the 
 sense that there has been any correspondence between, our society and 
 any society there. 1 have received letters from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. From what point were they written ?—A. Mostly, I think, from 
 Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. Do \ou remember the name of the party writing them l —A. I do— 
 Mr. Evans and Mr. Scott. I think those two have written me from 
 there. 
 
 Q. Where aie they now ?—A. L do not know. 
 
24 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. How long since yon saw them in town here ?—A. I saw them in 
 town here four or five days ago. 
 
 Q. In what employment are they engaged ?—A. I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that they are engaged in giving their entire time 
 and attention to this migration ?—A. I do not know that; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you not met them in charge of companies of colored men on 
 their way from North Carolina to the West ?—A. Yes, sir; I believe 
 they were. 
 
 Q. Did they not tell yon they were?—A. Yes, sir; they told me that 
 they were accompanying these people from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What information have you of the demand for labor in Indiana ?— 
 A. Well, sir, now I don’t want to go be 3 T ond the bounds of the exact 
 truth. 1 want to come to an understanding whether the Senator wishes 
 me to give my own knowledge personally, or simply my general knowl¬ 
 edge derived from various sources. 
 
 Q. I want this either from your own knowledge or from information 
 that you may have derived from others in Indiana ; and if from informa¬ 
 tion derived from Indiana, give us the names of those who informed 
 you.—A. My general knowledge is this : I was raised in a farming sec¬ 
 tion in Southern Ohio, in the same latitude as the interior portion of 
 OLio and Indiana ; and I know there are many thrifty farmers in Ohio 
 and Indiana, and that there js a demand for labor, in winter almost the 
 same as in summer, for such work as chopping wood, cutting logs, and 
 so forth. Knowing this to be the case in Southern Ohio, I have every 
 reason to believe it to be the same in Southern Indiana; it is the same 
 sort of a country, and there must be a demand for the same sort of labor. 
 I know that the negro, from his docility, from his adaptiveness and teach¬ 
 ableness, will make a better laborer and give better satisfaction than 
 the tramp regency, or the Irish and the Germans; that they are more 
 desirable, especially with the Quakers of the country. Besides that 
 general information, I have had a number of communications from gen¬ 
 tlemen who desire labor, and mention that they want “one good colored 
 man,” or “or two good colored men,” as the case may be, or that they 
 “ can locate fifty colored men.” 
 
 Q. Have you with you the names of persons who have written you 
 such letters ?—A. I have not with me. 
 
 Q. Will you bring them here ?—A. I will. They are from good, re¬ 
 sponsible people. 
 
 Q. Do you know them personally t —A. I know of them, as I know of 
 Senator Voorhees, or as I know of other men of whom I have frequently 
 heard and whose character and reliability are perfectly well known. 
 
 Q. Where do they live?—A. In Indiana; I could not say exactly in 
 what part. 
 
 Q. W hat county do they live in ? — A. I could not state. 
 
 Q. Do you remember their post-office address ?—A. I do not. I get 
 letters from New York, from Ohio, from Pennsvlvania, and from other 
 States. 
 
 Q. Are you willing to give us the benefit of them ?—A. Certainly, sir. 
 A great many of them are turned over to Mr. Adams, the secretary of 
 our society, because the secretary was the proper person to have them ; 
 but whatever I have you can have. 
 
 Q. Will you bring them with you to our next meeting?—A. I will. 
 
 Q. You say the demand for farm labor is about the same in Southern 
 Ohio as in Southern Indiana ; are you sending any of these people to 
 Ohio ?—A. Yes, sir; the last lot I sent out—there were eleven of them 
 —I sent to Ohio. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SORTHERN STATES. 
 
 25 
 
 Q. To what part of Ohio ?—A. To Bellaire. 
 
 Q. Was there a demand for these men there ?—A. I do not know, ex¬ 
 cepting this: We have been informed heretofore that it was a good loca¬ 
 tion there for them ; then we have been written to by some colored men 
 there that it was a good location. 
 
 Q. Who has written to you to that effect I—A. Well, one of them is 
 Milton M. Holland, a good engineering man in the last campaign. He 
 told us the state of things there, and that good colored men and women 
 could get employment there ; and at his instance these persons were di¬ 
 rected there, not having money enough to take them to Kansas. 
 
 Q. You say he was u a good engineering man in the last campaign 
 do you mean by that the last political campaign ?—A. I do not know, 
 except that he is an active man in the interests of the colored men. 
 
 Q. To what other points in Ohio have you sent colored men ?—A. 
 Mostly to the river counties. The fact is, I have not had much to do 
 with forwarding men to any other point except Bellaire. I think some 
 were sent to Gallia County, and perhaps to two or three other points. 
 
 Q. Have you the means of telling how many colored laborers you 
 have sent to Indiana?—A. Ko, sir; I could only approximate it in a 
 way that would be quite indefinite; we have sent a good many women 
 and children out there; in all, I should not be surprised if we had sent 
 from 2,500 to 3,000 persons to Indiana. 
 
 Q. How many to Ohio ?—A. It would be a sheer guess that I could 
 make; only a few, as compared with the number sent to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Half as many ?—A. Ko, sir, I think not; perhaps four or five hun¬ 
 dred; perhaps not that many ; they were sent out in little squads as 
 wanted and called for. 
 
 Q. Who has been in the habit of going to Indiana to make arrange¬ 
 ments for these people ?—A. I do not know, except by hearsay. 
 
 Q. What do you know fry hearsay ?—A. I have understood that Will¬ 
 iams and Perry have done the most of the going out with them and lo¬ 
 cating them. 
 
 Q. Do you want this committee to understand that 2,500 to 3,000 men, 
 women, and children have been sent from here to Indiana through the 
 instrumentality of your organization, and yet you have no more knowl¬ 
 edge of what has been going on at the other end of the line, in Indiana, 
 and of the people engaged in this business out there, than you have 
 given us here ? Can you furnish us no names of persons connected with 
 this Emigrant Aid Society in Indianapolis, and no names of persons at 
 Greencastle; who are managing this matter?—A. With all deference to 
 the Senator and the committee, and meaning no offense, allow me to 
 sav that I want the committee to understand just what they choose 
 from the evidence I give ; 1 have nothing to do except to give it to you 
 as accurately and definitely as I can. I mean to say again that I have 
 no connection with any organization in Indiana, nor in any other State; 
 thatlhave no further interest in the matter in the world than that I, as a 
 humanitarian, meet these people here, desire very much to do all I can 
 to help them go west, and get good homes there. I have 110 connection 
 with any organization or anybody, and hope and believe that the peo¬ 
 ple there are imbued with the same spirit that I am, and will welcome 
 them and take care of them, which I hear they do; but when it comes 
 to particulars, I cannot tell you definitely; I do not know the number 
 that have been sent to Indiana with any exactness; it would be the 
 merest guess-work for me to say how many I have sent or been instru¬ 
 mental in sending. 
 
 Q. You say that you are responsible for this paper here ; for its state- 
 
26 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS EROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 meats of fact and its sentiment?—A. I did not mean to put it in just 
 that shape. I had something to do with the composition of the paper; 
 Mr. Adams, our secretary, a young man of more or less literary ability, 
 got the thing up; but I was in sympathy with it, and agreed with it, 
 and approved it in the main ; there might be some words or sentences 
 that I would have had different if I had had the entire getting up of it. 
 What I meant to say was, that in the main I am in sympathy with its 
 sentiments. 
 
 Q. In this paper I hud it stated that “ It is well known that ever since 
 the adoption by the people of the United States of those constitutional 
 measures which conferred upon the late slave the rights of citizenship 
 and suffrage, there has existed throughout some of the Southern States 
 an incessant political and social str ife.” [ wish to ask you. as a man of 
 intelligence belonging to your race, and of information regarding their 
 condition, whether there is “an incessant political and social strife,” or 
 any political and social strife, between the white and the colored popula¬ 
 tion in Noith Carolina ?—A. I do not know that there is. 
 
 Q. On the other hand, do you not know that North Carolina has been 
 more friendly toward the colored race ; has been more kind in its treat¬ 
 ment of them ; more liberal in its legislation in their behalf; and has 
 actually done more for their benefit than any other State, North or 
 South ?—A. Now, Mr. Senator, that is a very nice little eulogy on North 
 Carolina. Governor Vance, there, himself could not have done it up 
 any better. It is almost equal to Daniel Webster’s famous eulogy on 
 Massachusetts, when he exclaimed, “There she stands.” And,seriously, 
 Mr. Senator, I will agree with you that North Carolina has been one of 
 the mildest and most considerate slave States in the Union. She has 
 gone beyond even Maryland in that respect; she has had more free ne¬ 
 groes and has treated them better and with more consideration, even in 
 the old times when slavery was still in existence, than any other South¬ 
 ern State; and since emancipation she has treated her colored popula¬ 
 tion as fairly as could be expected of a master class toward their ex¬ 
 slaves. It is not so much on account of the treatment the colored peo¬ 
 ple have received from the whites as from a poverty of the principal 
 material elements which constitute wealth and contribute to comfort 
 that makes North Carolina a grand good State to emigrate from. I do 
 not mean any reflection on the character of the people ; the trouble is 
 in the soil. I would not think of living there. If I were a white man 
 and were able to do so ; that is, if I had the wealth so that I could, and 
 the privilege of doing so, I would go down to North Carolina and would 
 educate and instruct those negroes, not with reference to politics or re¬ 
 ligion or social systems, but I would say to them, if you want to edu¬ 
 cate your children to be men, to imitate the white race, to own property, 
 to berome successful in life in any respect, you must leave this poor, 
 wretched, God forsaken country, where the soil does not seem able to 
 sprout black-eyed peas, and go out into the broad, rich, fertile West, 
 where they can buy farms on those alluvial prairies at a less price per 
 acre than the rent that they pay every year down there, it is not from 
 any hostility to the white people, but for the good of the black people, 
 that I urge them to get up and get out from that State. 
 
 Q. Mr. Wall, have you ever looked at the census returns of North 
 Carolina and noticed the productiveness of that State? If you have, I 
 am sure you would not make any such sweeping assertions as you have, 
 that the soil is not capable of raising “ black eyed pease.” Did you ever 
 examine the census returns of North Carolina as regards its product¬ 
 iveness?—A. O, yes, sir; I certainly have; I love the State- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 27 
 
 Q. Have you looked at the census returns because you love the State? 
 —A. I judge mainly from my own general knowledge of the State and 
 the condition of the people there. 
 
 Q. Aside from the barrenness of the soil of North Carolina, point out 
 some other evils that you think the people will be relieved of by going 
 to Indiana.—A. The next thing, and the most important thing to me, is 
 the education and schooling of the children. I am told, notwithstand¬ 
 ing the statements that the State has been very liberal in the establish¬ 
 ment of schools, including normal schools, and did for a time seem to 
 make an effort in the direction of popular education, that, either because 
 they have not the disposition or because they have not the ability, they 
 have ceased to take that sort of interest in furnishing school privileges 
 that they started out with. At all events, I am satisfied, from state¬ 
 ments received from reliable sources, that they do not, in the rural dis¬ 
 tricts, give the children more than about three month’s schooling in the 
 year ; and 1 guess few of them have that, And from the fact that the 
 school privileges there are not so good as they are in the North gener¬ 
 ally, I would urge them to leave there and seek some place where their 
 children can find better opportunities for education. 
 
 Q.'What is your understanding of the school laws of Indiana, in re¬ 
 gard to colored people?—A. I understand that they have schools for 
 the colored children the same as for the white, except that where the 
 distance would be too great for colored children to go to their own 
 schools they and the white children can go to school together. In other 
 words, they have separate schools where it is convenient and they can 
 afford it; and otherwise the children all go to school together. At all 
 events, I understand that in some way the colored children can get 
 schooling for at least six or eight months in the year. 
 
 Q. Are you not aware that practically it is not true in Indiana that 
 the two races go to school together ? (Here the chairman entered into 
 a somewhat detailed explanation of the law, the facts, and the decision 
 of the supreme court, in Indiana, and then continued): 
 
 Q. Now, I want to ask you whether you are aware that there is a law 
 in Indiana making a landlord’s lien on half a man’s crop, so that he can 
 not move it or sell it until he has paid his rent? Are you and your 
 folks aware of that?—A. No, sir ; and it would not make any difference 
 to my purpose if it were so, if white and colored men were treated 
 alike. 
 
 Q. I would like to have you point out the advantages of Indiana over 
 North Carolina as regards the treatment of your people.—A. I am not 
 particularly conversant with the laws of either State ; but I know some¬ 
 thing of the disposition of the people of Indiana, and their ability and 
 willingness to help and aid ; their friendliness is about all the matter I 
 have considered. 
 
 Q. Then Indiana is regarded as friendly in tone and temper toward 
 the settlement of negroes there?—A. No, not entirely; The southern 
 part of your state, your “ Egypt,” is to be more dreaded, I would say, 
 than even Kentucky. But in the interior there seems to be a very dif¬ 
 ferent sentiment. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by “Egypt”? Do you mean Evansville, and 
 the parts around there, where they cast about 1,500 negro votes, by 
 colored men brought over from Kentucky ?—A. No, sir; I mean the 
 portions where the Democrats have been in the habit of bringing white 
 Kentuckians over by the thousand to help carry the State for the Dem¬ 
 ocratic ticket. 
 
 Q. Please be explicit, and state the counties where they have been 
 
28 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 in tbe habit of bringing Kentuckians over to vote the Democratic 
 ticket.—A. As I said, Mr. Senator, you must not coniine me to specific 
 details in these matters. I have read statements in the papers, and have 
 received information from gentlemen in whom I have every confidence, 
 as to your u Egypt,” and the method of carrying elections there. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that u Egypt” is not in Indiana—that the term is 
 never applied to any portion of Indiana, but is applied exclusively to the 
 southern portion of Illinois ?—A. I have heard it applied to the southern 
 portion of Indiana and Illinois both. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Heilman, the Republican member of Con¬ 
 gress from the first district of Indiana, was elected from the most 
 southern Congressional district in the State, embracing half a dozen 
 counties lying next to Kentucky ? Are you aware that more of the 
 counties along the river are Republican than Democratic?—A. I have 
 given no testimony on that point, for I have no knowledge regarding it. 
 
 Q. I wanted to see, Mr. Wall, whether you could give an intelligent 
 account of the difference between the legislation in favor of your race in 
 Indiana and in North Carolina ; you say, however, that you do not 
 know of any political or social strife in North Carolina since suffrage was 
 bestowed on the negro?—A. I did not want to be understood as saying 
 that all the difficulties there were social or political, but that 1 knew of 
 no particular, exciting, special war or strife between the two races. 
 
 Q. You say in this paper, u The disposition to escape beyond the reach 
 of oppression has of course been greatest among the colored people re¬ 
 siding in those sections of the South wherein their opponents have dis¬ 
 played the least regard for their rights to 4 life, liberty, and the pursuit 
 of happiness.’” What part of North Carolina is this emigration from ? 
 —A. I think it is from the northeastern part. 
 
 Q. Do you know what counties ?—A. I think I have heard them men¬ 
 tioned, maybe, but I cannot name them now. The emigrants have been 
 mainly, I have understood, from the neighborhood of Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. You have been among these people as they passed through ?—A. 
 Considerably. 
 
 Q. Did they not tell you what counties they were from ?—A. Some of 
 them may have done so, but if they did I do not remember now. 
 
 Q. You are a North Carolinian yourself?—A. Yes, sir; but I have 
 been away from there a long time. They did not come from any coun¬ 
 ties where I am acquainted. I think the name of one of the counties 
 1 heard mentioned was Lenoir County. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that this tide of emigration is started in North 
 Carolina from those points where the white people ojfpress the colored 
 people the most ?—A. Do you mean more than in other parts of the 
 South ? 
 
 Q. No; more than in other parts of North Carolina. Does this emi¬ 
 gration come from parts of that State where the white people treat the 
 colored people more unjustly than in other parts of the State?—A. 
 Well, now, 1 think they treat them quite unjustly there- 
 
 Q. Quite unjustly in what way ?—A. I think they treat them un¬ 
 justly in the way they take advantage of them in paying them for their 
 labor. 
 
 Q. How do you know they take advantage of them ?—A. I know it, 
 because I have it directly from the mouths of many intelligent, houest- 
 appearing men who have come from there. 
 
 Q. How do they say the white people take advantage of them ?—A. 
 Well,quite a number of them have told me that when they work out they 
 can get but about thirty cents a day for their labor. And when they 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 29 
 
 rent little patches or portions of ground, on shares, or when they rent 
 and pay so much a year for the land, though they have worked there 
 now for twelve or fifteen years, ever since emancipation, they stand 
 just where they did before ; they haven’t anything. Then they have 
 told me about the process of dealing with them—their being paid for 
 their work in the orders that were spoken of by Mr. Cromwell the other 
 day. After they have made four or five bags of cotton, and so much 
 corn, or whatever else they may be raising, at the end of the year their 
 orders have accumulated and aggregated in amount so that their land¬ 
 lord or employer, the man from whom they rent, who has the measuring 
 and weighing of the crop, and the handling and calculating of these 
 orders, makes it out, somehow, so that they not only have nothing, but 
 are in debt, with a mortgage on them, as one might say, for the future. 
 
 Q. Have you sufficient knowledge of the world to know whether the 
 same thing is or is not true of large numbers of persons in other places, 
 everywhere, white as well as black ; or does everybody get rich outside 
 of North Carolina ?—A. O, no, sir, not everybody ; but in most peaces, 
 anybody that is hardworking and economical can manage to save up 
 something. 
 
 Q. Is it not true of the laboring class in all portions of the country, 
 to a large extent, that at the end of the year they are still behind ; is 
 not that a very common complaint everywhere?—A. Mr. Senator, I will 
 frankly give you my reasons for concluding that there is something 
 wrong about this matter. I understand a little about human nature. 
 The master class, who have for two or three hundred years held these 
 colored people in abject slavery, have not so soon lost all their feeling of 
 superiority and ownership and their determination to get and to keep 
 the upper hand of them. Human nature does not change so suddenly 
 but that, if this class to a man remain right there, in the same locali¬ 
 ties, and in the same relation as servants, as abject hewers of wood 
 and drawers of water, the upper class, with their dislike of labor and 
 their contempt of laborers, are not likely to be so pure, so immaculate 
 as to treat these people fairly and as their fellow-men. This is not to be 
 expected ; and when I hear these statements of unfair and unjust and 
 oppressive treatment from dozens and hundreds of people, bearing upon 
 their countenances the seal of wretchedness and the impress of despair, 
 I hold myself justified in believing it to be true. If it be a fact that 
 the white population of the South cannot do any better by the colored 
 people than they do—if, on account of the poverty of the soil, they 
 cannot do any better—that does not make it any the less their right to 
 leave such a country, nor any less their duty to move to some better 
 one, which will afford them greater advantages in life for themselves 
 and their children. 
 
 Q. In regard to this matter of a change of sentiment toward the col¬ 
 ored people, are you aware that within the past twenty-five or thirty 
 years the people of Indiana have voted, by a majority of seventy-five or 
 eighty thousand, against permitting colored persons to come into the 
 State?—A. I was not aware of it; I am very sorry it they ever did such 
 a thing. 
 
 Q. I find you stating, in this circular of yours, that “ he desires toes’ 
 cape from the South iti time to avoid the unpleasant experiences of a 
 Presidential campaign, and even before the census-taker shall have used 
 his name to swell the Congressional representation of that section”; is 
 it your purpose in that to advance the idea that this migration would 
 cut down the Congressional representation of the South generally f— A. 
 That was not my primary understanding at all. 
 
30 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Why was it inserted there, then?—A. Because, while that was not 
 the primary object in view, still I think it would be right to do that very 
 thing. 
 
 Q. I am not asking you whether you think it would be right or not; 
 I am asking in regard to the fact. This movement, then, would have 
 some connection, would it not, with the basis of representation, North 
 or South ?—A. I think that would be an incidental result, following in 
 the lead of this greatest of all considerations—that of getting them 
 away for their own good, for humanity’s sake. 
 
 Q. Speaking of this transfer to the North you say: “ There, too, his 
 right of suffrage will not be contested or abridged; and if the ‘solid 
 North 7 is in reality to be arrayed in political contest against a ‘solid 
 South,’ his vote, freely cast, may one day prove a potent force in saving 
 the nation from the evil designs of his former persecutors.” You say 
 this in your circular; and yet you say that this migration, so far as your 
 society is concerned, has no political end iu view—that there is nothing 
 X>olitica 1 about it?—A. Nothing whatever. 
 
 Q. This statement, too, is here in this paper incidentally?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And the allusion to his casting his vote against a “ solid South ” 
 is also here incidentally, or accidentally—which?—A. 1 don’t know 
 whether it is incidental or accidental; what 1 meant to say was this: 
 that in the North the colored man will not have to pass through those 
 scenes that he has to pass through iu the South; there is no use in de¬ 
 nying these things, for these colored people have lived there and know 
 about these things ; in the North nothing occurs of this intimidating, 
 and white liners, and night-riders, and ku-klux. 
 
 Q. l)o you mean that there are white-liners, and night-riders, and ku- 
 klux in North Carolina?—A. I do not kuow particularly about North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. Y r ou speak of going North, where the right of suffrage is not 
 abridged ; is the right of suffrage abridged iu North Carolina any more 
 than in Indiana ?—A. 1 think so. 
 
 Q. Do not misunderstand me, Mr. Wall; in my examination of you I 
 am not trying to catch you iu any way, or to get you to agree with me; 
 I simply want to get your explanation of things; I want to find out 
 what you kuow with regard to this emigration movement. You say, 
 here in this appeal of yours, “Judging from the numerous petitions for 
 aid, and from other intelligence received from various sections of the 
 South, this migration movement is as yet in its incipieucy ” ; that is, 
 only in the beginning; is that your idea in regard to this movement?— 
 A. That is what I think, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, I want to kuow from you, one of the leading men in this 
 matter, and one of the most intelligent, your idea of the scope, of the 
 future, of this migration ; to how great an extent you contemplate or 
 anticipate a removal of the negro from the South to the North ; whether 
 you expect all the colored population to leave, or but a part of them ; 
 and if a part, what part; and where from, and whereto; and within 
 what time; give us any facts that you may have bearing upon these 
 points.—xV. Well, I have two or three theories. One is this: the col¬ 
 ored people have now got a knowledge of their right and privilege to 
 remove themselves from one part of this country to another ; they have 
 learned that there is a vast domain iu this country as yet unpeopled and 
 unsettled; as they become more intelligent, the same laws which govern 
 any migration, which for the past century has governed the migration 
 of people from the oppressed countries of the old world to this country, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 31 
 
 will control this migration of the colored population from the South. 
 They will escape from that section, where they must bear a menial rela¬ 
 tion, it seems to me, so loug as they remain there, to the Northern and 
 Western States, where at least a portion of the people are kindly dis¬ 
 posed toward them, and where they will possess the great advantage of 
 taking up the soil and becoming owners of land ; and encouraged by 
 the progress of these, and the improvement in their condition—which 
 will advance all the time—and the increased friendliness which will re¬ 
 sult from their proving themselves to be honest, industrious, and worthy 
 people, others will follow them, in greater or less numbers, as they find 
 their conditions more or less unpleasant and unsatisfactory in the South. 
 In that great agricultural portion of the country, where they need the 
 labor of the negro, finding him docile and diligent and trustworthy, 
 they will become attached to him, and will prefer him, as the old mas¬ 
 ter class of the South does, to the foreign class of white labor. And as 
 he finds himself well received and well treated, as he finds work to do 
 and pay for his work, and as these facts are learned by those of his race 
 whom he has left behind in the South, the migration will increase in 
 double ratio. In regard to this matter of climate, I had a talk with 
 Senator Lamar the other day; he said he had no fears of the negro not 
 doing well in the North ; he opposed the exodus on other grounds, but 
 not upon that; for the other advantages he would have in the North 
 would more than counterbalance any disadvantages that might arise 
 from the rigors of the climate. 
 
 Q. If I understand your explanation, you expect this transfer of popu¬ 
 lation lo become, in the course of time, quite general and extensive?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I would say that; but I do not expect the South to be de¬ 
 populated. I think, if a great many of them were removed, it would be 
 better, both for those who leave, and for those who remain in the South. 
 
 Q. Of couise it would not depopulate the South'?—A. 1 meant, of 
 course, so far as colored people are concerned. 
 
 Q. Your view is, then, that there is to be an extensive movement, to 
 continue for a good while in the future?—A. Maybe I can make myself 
 clearer to the Senator by an illustration like this: There has for many 
 years been an influx of immigration from Ireland; a certain percentage 
 every year—increasing when they have hard times in Ireland, and dimin¬ 
 ishing when there is less distress there. In about the same way, this 
 exodus having now commenced, will be apt to continue, serving as a 
 sort of outlet, where the colored people will go to benefit themselves, as 
 people come from other countries. 
 
 Q. Do you know to what extent this emigration is to go to Indiana?— 
 A. No, sir; nothing definite. 
 
 Q. Do the negroes that are now going to Indiana intend to make that 
 State their permanent home?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Have you not heard it stated, or suggested, that they would re¬ 
 main in Indiana until next fall, and then go on farther west, where there 
 were government lands—possibly to Kansas?—A. I have never heard 
 anything of that sort. I have said to them, go to Indiana, where you 
 can find good homes, and a hospitable people; and it may be that after 
 a few years, when you have accumulated something, if you want to you 
 can go farther west, where you can buy lauds cheaper; but this has never 
 been a doctrine of mine. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any circulars stating to the colored people 
 that they must get to Indiana by the first of May next?—A. Never. 
 
 Q. Have you ever talked with Perry, or Williams, or Scott, upon that 
 
32 
 
 NEGRO I-XODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 subject—that they ought to get there by that time, or ought to get there 
 next spring ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have no particular reason, then, for hurrying them through 
 during this cold season of the year?—A. Yes, sir; to get where the 
 people are friendly to them, and to find good places to work. 
 
 Q. What arrangements have you made with the railroads for trans¬ 
 porting these people to Indiana ?—A. I have made no arrangements at 
 all. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with the officers of the railroads on the subject? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Foreman ?—A. He was the principal man I saw, 
 
 Q. What position did he occupy ?—A. He was the agent. 
 
 Q. Of what road ?—A. Of the Baltimore and Ohio. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Dukehart?—A. Not especially. 
 
 Q. Mr. Foreman is the passenger agent?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go to see Mr. Foreman, or did he come to see you ?—A. 
 He has been to see me several times, and I have been to see him several 
 times. 
 
 Q. What has he been to see you about?—A. To see if I would'send 
 these people by his road. 
 
 Q. Did you receive a proposition from Mr. Foreman for carrying those 
 people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you receive a proposition from the Baltimore and Potomac 
 Road ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Through whom?—A. Through their agent, Mr. Janowitz. 
 
 Q. You mean a proposition for the transportation of these people to 
 Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which made the best bid?—A. I can tell the Senator something 
 better than all this, for I went to see the grand moguls of the railroads 
 themselves. 
 
 Q. Who were they?—A. Mr. Cole, of the Baltimore and Ohio Road, 
 and.Mr. Young, of the Baltimore and Potomac Road. 
 
 Q. What arrangement could you make with Cole, of the Baltimore 
 and Ohio?—A. I went up in the interests of this organization of ours, 
 feeling that every penny we could save these poor people it was our 
 duty to do it. I went up to see the very best that could be done. The 
 Baltimore and Ohio people received me nicely, and said they would 
 carry the emigrants from Washington to Indianapolis for $9 a head. I 
 said, “Could you do it for no less?’ 7 They said, “ No, but we will tell 
 you what we will do ; we will give you a drawback of one dollar a head.” 
 I said, “ Is that your very best ? ” They said, “ Yes, it is.” Then I went 
 to see what the other road would do. I went to see Young and he 
 treated us outrageously, because some days before fifty colored men, 
 with whom our society had nothing whatever to do, had been sent by 
 the Baltimore and Ohio Road, which they were trying to get; he swore 
 and cursed, and said he did not care about carrying any of them any¬ 
 how; he said that he had written to his subordinate here his best terms, 
 and that we could go to him and learn them. He said we had had the 
 other road carry the other lot, when they had been partly promised to 
 his road, and they might as well carry these too. I saw he was feeling 
 a little dyspeptic and not nice, and we came away. I had said to Cole 
 before that unless we could do better bv the other road we would send 
 
 XJ 
 
 these men by his; that is, such men as we had on our hands to send. 
 Some came and went right through, without our having anything to do 
 with them. We were only managing our own little matter here. When 
 I got back I said to the agent of the Baltimore and Potomac that I sup. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 33 
 
 posed he had stated his best terms to me. He said, “Yes, sir; I could 
 not do any better.” So the terms of both roads were precisely the same. 
 So we went down and concluded the arrangement with the Baltimore 
 and Ohio Road, so far as our little organization was concerned; that is, 
 whenever we raised the money ourselves to send a lot out. When the 
 emigrants paid their own way, we never had anything to do with it in 
 any shape. Then they questioned us, the railroad men did, as to what 
 should be done with the drawback money—the dollar apiece on each 
 passenger. We said, “You must not pay a cent of this money to any 
 of our men, but make a contribution of it to our organization.” * So this 
 drawback money was paid back into our treasury, to be used in the 
 purchase of tickets for other emigrants. And we have our books and 
 tickets, with oaths, to show the same. 
 
 Q. Have you ever offered anybody a dollar a head for getting emi¬ 
 grants ?—A. Never. 
 
 Q. Or 75 cents a head ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. W. C. Chase?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any such conversation with him ?—A. No, sir ; 
 Never in my life. 
 
 Q. Where did you get the money which you pay out for the transpor¬ 
 tation of these colored people from here to Indiana, over the Baltimore 
 and Ohio Railroad—the $8 dollars a head, and the drawback; do you 
 get that entirely by contribution?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those contributions are from Washington ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have any been receiving any from outside of Washington ?—A. 
 We did get, through Mr. Douglass, $250 from Miss Elizabeth Thompson, 
 a philanthropic lady of New York. 
 
 Q. Can you tell who your principal subscribers to this fund are in 
 this city?—A. I do not know that I could. One reason why I do not 
 know is that from the very inception of our organization I have partic¬ 
 ularly insisted that nobody, neither myself nor anybody else, should 
 touch a cent of those contributions. 
 
 Q. Have you canvassed for money yourself, or have others done that 
 for you ?—A. I do not know whether others have or not; I think noth¬ 
 ing of the sort has been done except at public meetings which have 
 been held. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Dukehart, passenger agent of the Baltimore and 
 Ohio Railroad?—A. I have met him. 
 
 Q. Where is he now ?—A. I do not know; I suppose he is at work in 
 the interests of the road. 
 
 Q. Where is he at work?—A. He seems to go from this city down 
 south. 
 
 Q. Are you not aware that he goes from this city down to North Car¬ 
 olina to stir up this emigration business?—A. He goes down south, but 
 not, I think, to stir it up; I asked him particularly not to stir it up, but 
 to let it all be spontaneous. 
 
 Q. Your understanding is that he goes down into North Carolina to 
 look after this business?—A. Yes, sir; he said to me that he staid at 
 that end of the route attending to passengers and emigration; I asked if 
 he had ever urged or encouraged the colored people to come north ; he 
 said no, he had strict orders uot to do that; then I told him that so far 
 as our society was concerned, we wished nothing of the kind ; we wished 
 the movement to be entirely voluntary. 
 
 Q. He attends to passengers and emigration?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that he passed through here with a lot ot col¬ 
 ored passengers three or four days since ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 3 EX 
 
34 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is now ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he is in North Carolina or Indiana ?—A. No r 
 sir; 1 only know that he is engaged in this business, and generally at 
 that end of the route, down there. 
 
 Q. Mr. Cromwell said in his testimony day before yesterday, that when 
 these colored people first came here they intended to go on to Kansas^ 
 but that after they got here they changed their plans, and concluded to 
 go to Indiana; do you know anything about that?—A. A little; what 
 Mr. Cromwell said did not have any effect on me, because he was not 
 very clear about some things. In the beginning of the matter, two 
 agents, or men who claimed to be agents, came here with long petitions, 
 stating where they had held meetings down there, and had concluded 
 to go somewhere. Up to that time, we had not had the slightest knowl¬ 
 edge or least idea of people coming here from North Corolina. Well* 
 these two young men came here and staid a few days, and while they 
 were stopping here and trying to get acquainted with our little organi¬ 
 zation, our society, their attention was directed to somebody, and that 
 somebody directed their attention to Indiana, stating that there were 
 opportunities and places there for labor, and very kind people, es¬ 
 pecially among the Quakers; but I did not see these young men then, 
 nor for a month or six weeks after they had come here, and had left 
 here, and made arrangements to have their people go to Indiana, till 
 they had gone out there and canvassed the State, and been all over it 
 investigating the condition of things, and the feelings of the people,, 
 aud had concluded to locate a number of emigrants there. I did not 
 see these persons myself till this emigration from North Carolina was 
 fully inaugurated, and the people from there were already going to In¬ 
 diana. 
 
 Q. Did you show r them any of those Indiana papers, encouraging im¬ 
 migration to that State?—A. No, sir; I had no such relation with them. 
 
 Q. You made a remark in relation to Mr. Cromwell’s testimony. Did 
 you not regard his statement as reliable?—A. Yes, sir; but there were 
 some matters that I thought he did not make very clear. There was 
 one thing in particular that I thought he did not make very clear, al¬ 
 though I was sure that he knew all about it. 
 
 Q. State what it was.—A. It was this: When he was asked in regard 
 to paying off the colored people in orders, how they were affected un¬ 
 fairly by that mode of payment, he did not explain the matter as 
 clearly as I thought he might. He has been present when these poor 
 people explained this, and I thought he might have made the injustice 
 of it appear a great deal clearer. 
 
 Q. Will you explain that matter to us on Friday, when you come 
 here to bring us those records?—A. Yes, sir; I cannot promise you 
 a great deal in the way of records; but I will look up what I have. As- 
 I have said before, I turned over the most of them to Mr. Adams. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF A. M. CLAPP. 
 
 A. M. Clapp sworn and examined. 
 
 Question. Please state your name and residence.—Answer. My name 
 is A. M. Clapp; I reside in the city of Washington. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?—A. Iam connected with the Daily 
 National Eepublican. 
 
 Q. In what capacity ?—A. As editor. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 35 
 
 Q. I find your name on this paper as treasurer of this organization_ 
 
 the Emigrant Aid Society ; state how long you have occupied that posi¬ 
 tion in that society".—A. I think that some time last April I was called 
 upon by Mr. Wall, and asked if I would serve as their treasurer. At 
 first I declined, and said “ No”; that I did not care to have anything 
 to do with it. But he said that he had been requested by a great many 
 to ask me to consent, and finally I consented, and have since acted as 
 treasurer of the society. 
 
 Q. What have been your duties in your capacity of treasurer of this 
 society ?—A. To receive contributions or money from whatever source 
 derived. 
 
 Q. What moneys have you received ?—A. It was, I think, on the 6th 
 of May that the first contribution to the funds of the society came into 
 my hands; it was the proceeds of a public meeting held in behalf of 
 the emigrant aid project. 
 
 Q. What was the amount ?—A. Thirty-nine dollars. . 
 
 Q. What have you received since that time ?—A. I have received, at 
 different times since, in contributions from individuals or churches and so¬ 
 cieties, I could not tell precisely how much, but I think sixteen hundred and 
 odd dollars, all of which has been paid out,and ninety-eight eentsmore, 
 on orders drawn by the president and secretary of the society, up to the 
 time that they resorted to an auditing committee. Since then no money 
 has been expended except on orders signed by that auditing committee. 
 The money was paid out on those, and delivered to the persons bring¬ 
 ing me the orders. 
 
 Q. Please state the objects of those expenditures for that amount.— 
 A. Some of the money has been expended to defray the expense of halls 
 for meetings; some of it ostensibly for printing; a small portion of it 
 for taking care of the emigrants while they were here in indigent cir¬ 
 cumstances; some of it for transportation; all as set forth in the 
 orders. 
 
 Q. The largest amount was to pay for their transportation ?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; the greatest amount was for transportation. 
 
 Q. Can you give the committee, from the amount of money you have 
 expended, about the number of people that have been transported by this 
 fund from here to Indiana?—A. Well, I would not like to make any 
 statement without reference, and I have no data with me just now, be¬ 
 cause I did not know what the scope of your inquiries would be. I will 
 furnish the committee, if they desire it, a particular statement. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would do so, stating especially the amount 
 expended for transportation. 
 
 Witness. Do you want a full and detailed report regarding the 
 fund ? 
 
 The Chairman. No ; simply a statement that so much has been re¬ 
 ceived, and that it has been expended as follows, so that we can see for 
 what it has been expended. And now please state whether you have 
 taken no other duties upon you in connection with this emigration mat¬ 
 ter, besides acting as treasurer of this society, and disbursing its funds.— 
 A. Not at all; I have not had anything to do with it, beyond that. 
 
 Q. I suppose, from your acting as an officer of this society, that you 
 in the main approve of its purpose ?—A. I approve of affording every 
 facility to every American citizen to g) anywhere that he chooses to go 
 within this country ; and if he is not satisfied where he is, and the public 
 thinks it is for its good to aid him, or any society thinks it is for his 
 good to aid him in his purpose to go elsewhere, I would not interfere 
 with their doing so. 
 
36 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Iii this instance, I conceive that you deem it to be for the public in¬ 
 terest that this transfer should take place, or you would not be connected 
 with it % —A. I do not know that it is for the public interest so much as 
 for the interest of the persons who are engaged in the migration. 
 
 Q. You were a citizen of New York before you came here ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Ilave you ever been in Indiana, to remain for any length of time ¥— 
 A. 1 have passed through there; I have never spent any time there. 
 
 This witness, at the next meeting of the committee, sent in the fol¬ 
 lowing statement: 
 
 Washington, D. C., January 22, 1880. 
 
 Hon. D. W. Vooriiees, 
 
 Chairman of Exodus Investigation Committee : 
 
 Sin : In pursuance of your request I present the following abstract of ray account, 
 as treasurer of the Emigrant Aid Society, and to correct ray statement of yesterday, 
 made from recollection: 
 
 Received from all sources, from May 6, 1879, to January 10, 1880. $2,021 08 
 
 Expended as follows: 
 
 Nov. 20. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers. $170 00 
 
 Nov. 23. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers. 63 00 
 
 Dec. 9. For transportation .of emigrants, as per vouchers. 540 00 
 
 Dec. 10. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers. 270 00 
 
 Dec. 16. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers. 468 00 
 
 Dec. 19. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers___ 170 00 
 
 Dec. 26. For transportation of emigrants, as per vouchers. 20 00 
 
 On suudry vouchers for other expenses. 315 06 
 
 - 2,023 71 
 
 Excess of receipts 
 
 2 63 
 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 A. M. CLAPP, Treasurer. 
 
 \ 
 
 On motion tbe committee adjourned to January 23,1880. 
 
 THIRD DAY. 
 
 Washington, IX C., Friday, January 23 , 1880 . 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. Present, the chairman 
 and all the members. The taking of testimony was resumed as follows 
 
 O. S. B. Wall recalled and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Wall, you stated the other day that, in your judgment, 
 some twenty-five hundred, perhaps more, colored persons had emigrated 
 from North Carolina to Indiana up to this time?—Answer. Yes, sir; 
 but I do not wish to be understood as pretending to be accurate in that; 
 I have not kept any account of numbers. 
 
 Q. We do not expect that; you say that is your approximate esti¬ 
 mate.—A. I think so; those that have passed through this way and in 
 other ways from North Carolina to Indiana. 
 
 Q. \\ hat proportion of them were able to and did pay their own way 
 from North Carolina to Indiana!—A. 1 should say one-half at least; 
 more likely two thirds. 
 
 Q. That would leave one-third to be provided for?—A. Yes, sir ; I 
 would qualify that in this way: We have never paid anybody’s w r ay 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 37 
 
 from North Carolina here, to my knowledge; our assistance has been 
 from this city west. 
 
 Q. Now, repeat your answer.—A. I mean to say this : To my own 
 knowledge I think I can state positively there never has gone a dollar 
 from us out of the city, or to help anybody to come to this city—to this 
 District; but that our assistance has been to persons passing through. 
 
 Q. To Indiana?—A. No; not to Indiana specially, but to persons 
 stopped here and unable to go further. 
 
 Q. Where did you help them to ?—A. To Kansas, some of them. 
 
 Q. Did you help anybody to Kansas ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many ?—A. I cannot say now. 
 
 Q. A dozen?—A. I cannot say ; perhaps more. 
 
 Q. Did you help as many as fifty ?—A. I cannot say, and I do not 
 care to be put on record as to the number. I have not attended so much 
 to the details of this matter as to having its general supervision. 
 
 Q. Very well; that is an answer. You think there were more than a 
 dozen ?—A. Yes, sir ; more. 
 
 Q. You stated to the committee that you had made a certain arrange¬ 
 ment with the railroad officials, namely, u to Indiana $9 a head and $1 
 drawback’ 7 ; did you make a similar arrangement to Kansas?—A. No, 
 sir; I think before I interposed with the railroads those going to Kan¬ 
 sas had gone on. 
 
 Q. Do you know on what terms the railroads took them.to Kansas ?— 
 A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the fare of a colored emigrant to Kansas is 
 from here over any line of road ?—A. I think that to any prominent 
 place there, such as Topeka or Lawrence, it is $19 or $20 for emigrant 
 fare. 
 
 Q. Did you ascertain that by talking with the railroad officials?—A. 
 No, sir; but by looking at a chart I got from them with the emigrant 
 rates printed on it. 
 
 Q. Did you go and make these arrangements yourself ?—A. No, sir ; 
 not specially. I was at the office talking to Mr. Coleman, and I asked 
 him about it; not particularly as to Kansas, but what the contract 
 would be to all important points. 
 
 Q. But you state that the assistance, the pecuniary assistance, given 
 to these emigrants by your society has consisted in helping the people 
 to go to Indiana ?—A. No, sir ; to Indiana and elsewhere. 
 
 Q. Where else?—A. We have assisted them to several places. I do 
 not understand all the places. 
 
 Q. We will get along faster, Mr. Wall, if you will give direct answers 
 to my questions.—A. I want to be explicit, Senator. 
 
 Q. Now where did you help them to ?—A. I think in several cases to 
 Kansas, and I know in several cases to Ohio, and I know principally to 
 Indiana. 
 
 Q. Did you not state a while ago that you did not assist any of these 
 emigrants to Kansas, and that most of them who had gone through 
 here to that point went with individual assistance?—A. I did not, and 
 if I did, I wish to correct it. 
 
 Q. Then you state that you assisted, or the members of your society 
 did, emigrants on their way to Kansas ?—A. No, sir ; I wish to be cor¬ 
 rect. That was before I made the arrangement with the railroads. I 
 mean now what the society has done. We had several cases, more than 
 a dozen perhaps, in which we assisted people to Kansas. 
 
 Q. I asked you in that connection how much it cost to take them to 
 Kansas, and you answered $19 or $20. 
 
38 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 Senator Vance. I think it is $19 or $21. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir 5 I think it is $21 now. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You say about two thirds of these people transported themselves 
 to Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir ; that is my idea. 
 
 Q. That would leave you some eight hundred to be provided for ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; about one-third, at $9. 
 
 Q. Now, how much did that call for ?—A. The eight hundred, do you 
 mean ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; eight hundred, at $9 a head.—A. I could not state, and, 
 if you will permit me, I will tell you, Senator- 
 
 Q. No, no, Mr. Wall, just tell me how much eight hundred, at $9 
 a head, would amount to. Cannot you do that'?—A. Yes, sir; when I 
 was a very small boy I could do that. 
 
 Q. That is what I ask, and I want you to answer.—A. Yes, sir; but 
 we did not pay that amount. 
 
 Q. I waut you to give me the figures.—A. Yes, sir; but we did not 
 pay but $8 a head. 
 
 Q. Then how much would that be? I will give you a chance to ex¬ 
 plain afterwards.—A. That would be about $0,400. 
 
 Q. Now, if you want to explain that you did not pay that amount you 
 can do so.—A. Well, sir, we did not pay that amount from the fact that 
 a great proportion of those would go upon half-fare tickets, and others 
 were children who did not pay a cent. 
 
 Q. Did the Baltimore and Ohio liailroad carry a number of people to 
 Indiana for nothing?—A. Y"es, sir ; a great many of them. 
 
 Q. By whose authority ?—A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Garrett about it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Cole, the general passenger agent ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you they would take them for nothing ! — A. No, sir ; 
 he certainly did not. 
 
 Q. Why, then, did they do it?—A. Because on all railroads babies 
 are not charged for, and between five and twelve years of age they go 
 on halt fare, and I think that is the general rule not alone to negro em¬ 
 igrants. 
 
 Q. Of those eight hundred can you tell how many were women and 
 children ?—A. No, sir ; I cannot. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us anything more than Mr. Clapp has as to how much 
 money was paid for the transportation of w r omen and children ?—A. No, 
 sir, I cannot. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Wall, at a former meeting I asked you if you would be 
 good enough to bring the reports of the society and what letters and 
 correspondence you had relating to this exodus movement; have you 
 them with you this morning ?—A. I have not this morning, Senator. 
 There w as a small sort of mishap by w hich I do not have them. I asked 
 the secretary to let me have them, Mr. Adams not being here. I asked 
 his brother-in-law, who is in the Treasury, to let me have what Mr. 
 Adams had ; but by some mishap I did not get them until I started up 
 to the committee, and 1 did not have time to assort them. I will bring 
 them as soon as they are assorted over, and I find out what has to do 
 with the emigration society and what has not. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Vance you may ask Mr. Wall any questions you 
 desire. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Just a few. Mr. Wall how long is it since you have been in North 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 39 
 
 Carolina ?—A. I clo not believe I have been in the State—I guess it has 
 beeu sixteen years; it might have been more than that. 
 
 Q. You have not been there for some time then ?—A. Not for a good 
 while. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know anything, of your own knowledge, about 
 the condition of the colored people down there of course, not having 
 been in the State ?—A. I do not know, governor, of course, from being 
 in the State, but I know as to the condition of the colored people there. 
 
 Q. You do not know it from personal observation from seeing it your¬ 
 self?—A. No, sir, except from seeing people from there. 
 
 Q. From whom did you derive your information ?—A. From perhaps 
 a dozen of those emigrants, who were very intelligent men—candid, 
 sober men. 
 
 ^ Q. That is from those emigrants passing through here leaving the 
 State ?—A. A portion of it; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you derived any of your information from intelligent white 
 men of the State ?—A. I do not call to mind any time where I talked to 
 a white man from the State ; but I have read the papers and talked 
 with intelligent colored men other than emigrants. 
 
 Q. In reply to a question of Senator Voorhees, in relation to the land¬ 
 lord and tenant act of Indiana, you stated that you did not care any¬ 
 thing about it, that it applied to all colors ?—A. I said, if it did. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything to the contrary, that the laws of North 
 Carolina do not apply to all colors ?—A. No, sir; but I know of no law 
 passed that would benefit many white people that would benefit but 
 very few of the colored people. There are many laws passed in those 
 States where it is the meaning and intention of the legislature to apply 
 them to the colored people. 
 
 Q. You place that on a supposition ; and in speaking of the landlord 
 and tenant act, you suppose that very few tenants are whites ?—A. I do 
 not know, sir, that I think that; but there are a great many circum¬ 
 stances that go to make up the facts of a man’s opinions. I know that 
 my father was a great slaveholder, and on his plantations there were 
 many poor whites. The number of poor whites was small compared 
 with the slaves, and I have thought that since the war there would not 
 be many poor whites without some land, 
 
 Q. You mean compared with the negroes?—A. Yes, sir; if all re¬ 
 mained there as they were during the slave time. 
 
 Q. You also stated, Mr. Wall, that North Carolina did, for a while, 
 seem to take an interest in the emigration of the negro, and that that 
 interest had sort of died away?—A. I think I did say something to con¬ 
 vey that impression ; that last year, 1879, they were not dispensing so 
 much education to blacks as when the education law was passed. 
 
 Q. Have yon seen the last report of the superintendent of education ? 
 —A. No, sir; I wish I could see it. 
 
 Q. Do you know, as a fact, that the number of colored children at¬ 
 tending the schools has been increasing from year to year ?—A. No, 
 sir ; but I should not be surprised if it were so. 
 
 Q. Do you know the amount of taxation authorized by the State for 
 common schools this year ?—A. No, sir ; I have seen no report of it. 
 
 Q. Then you have no report from which to say that education in the 
 State is not increasing?—A. I respectfully beg to differ from the Sena¬ 
 tor. I think I had information. 
 
 Q. Was it from documents, official reports, and things of that sort ?— 
 A. I think that would be the best evidence, but I do not consider there 
 is no other way of knowing the fact. 
 
40 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Well, you have no information, I believe you said, that the colored 
 people had been subjected to any political persecution in North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. No, sir; not as we understand it to be in Mississippi and 
 Louisiana, where they are treated very badly. There is not that sort of 
 treatment in North Carolina ; but I have heard a number of these emi¬ 
 grants say that in various ways they have had intimidation and things 
 of that sort. I have never made that question in the society giving aid 
 to emigrants. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of colored people bulldozing each other?—A. 
 No, sir; I have not; but I should not be surprised if they did do it. 
 
 Q. You should not be suprised if they did; do you know if a colored 
 man voted the Democratic ticket if his own people bulldozed him and 
 subjected his life to danger?—A. No, sir; I do not know as lever 
 heard of an instance. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the laws in North Carolina make any difference 
 between colored people and others?—A. No, sir; I know of no law that 
 does that. 
 
 Q. Do you know that in Kansas, to which you have been helping 
 these people, that the word “white” is in the constitution, and that they 
 do not prevent colored people from voting ?—A. No, sir; I know of no 
 differences there. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the word “white” is in the constitution?—A. 
 No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know that in 18GG the word “ white” was in the constitu¬ 
 tion, and the people objected to striking it out by a constitutional 
 amendment ?—A. No, sir; I know that it was when Kansas was a Terri¬ 
 torial State, but I do not think there are any distinctions made there now; 
 but if you tell me that it is there I shall believe it. 
 
 Q. I said it because I was asking you if you were sending people to 
 a State with the guaranty of all their rights where the word “ white” is 
 in the constitution?—A. I do not know, sir, as to that. 
 
 Q. And all this that you have testified about the wages of laborers 
 and the paying of them in store-orders and their coming out at the end 
 of the year without money, you got all that from the colored emigrants? 
 —A. Principally; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know from farm operations generally that a farm is some¬ 
 times from fifteen to twenty miles from town and that the colored 
 people frequently cannot go to town to make their purchases, and these 
 colored stores are established for the mutual convenience of the landlord 
 and tenants, and these advances are made to them for their own accom¬ 
 modation ? That is not an unusual thing, is it, in such places where 
 farming is carried on?—A. No, sir; I believe not. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Of what class is your society composed, white or colored?—A. 
 Colored people, sir. 
 
 Q. In what proportion?—A. I do not know as we have a white mem¬ 
 ber, except Mr. Adams, and he is not here, and has not been here for 
 some time. I do not know whether Mr. Mendenhall considers himself a 
 member. If he does, he is a white man. 
 
 Q. What was the motive and purpose of organizing this society?— 
 A. In the first place we thought of the condition of the colored people 
 in the District of Columbia; that there was a great many of them here, 
 far more than had enough to do, and that Congress was making appro¬ 
 priations for their support from year to year, and they were the recipi¬ 
 ents of government charity. I think I sent a communication to Con- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 41 
 
 gress at one time that the colored people could not be made a good peo¬ 
 ple so long as they were the recipients of charity, and inasmuch as 
 they themselves would not like to raise their children in this way, in 
 that spirit of self-supporting independence I asked Congress to make 
 an appropriation to help us get them'West and settle them, and bridge 
 them over for a year or so, taking a mortgage on their lands. I thought 
 it would be best for the country to do that instead of feeding them with 
 soup here in the city from year to year. 
 
 Q. Was this society organized before there was any movement of the 
 colored people from the States I—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And principally to get these people—colored people—away from 
 the District?—A. Y r es, sir; it was organized long before the exodus 
 began. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect when you first made this move?—A. I believe it 
 was two and a half or may be three months before the movement. I 
 could see the exact date. 
 
 Q. When was this circular issued; after the movement from the 
 States ?—A. Yes, sir; a long time after we organized. 
 
 Q. Senator Yance asked you as to North Carolina.—A. We had no 
 reference to North Carolina in that circular. We had our eyes directed 
 to this great movement west of the Mississippi river, and to Illinois and 
 other States. 
 
 Q. Then the incessant strife to which you refer in this circular had no 
 reference to North Carolina ?—A. We should not have thought of that 
 State if the people down there had not come and told us and excited 
 our sympathy. We then thought the operations of our society might 
 as well apply to them as to any other people, for it was only giviugaid 
 to human beings in distress. At the time of issuing the circular we had 
 no knowledge of any other movement, and no reference to North Caro¬ 
 lina. 
 
 Q. I do not believe you stated where the contributions to your society 
 came from. Please state it.—A. They came from churches and indi¬ 
 viduals. I believe Colonel Ingersoll gave us a hundred dollars. 
 
 Q. Was that in a public hall?—A. Yes, sir; in a public meeting. 
 Then Mr. Douglass got for us $250 from Miss Elizabeth Thompson. 
 
 Q. Mr. Douglass is opposed to the exodus, is he not?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he get it solely as a charitable contribution?—A. YYs, sir; I 
 told him when I went to his office, and said to him that the people were 
 here, and that they needed it, and that I heard he had $250 to help 
 them. He said that, yes; as the people were here he would assist them. 
 
 Q. Do you remember at whose suggestion you made the arrangement 
 with the railroad authorities for the transportation of these people to 
 Indiana, and whether you knew of people sent out there by the sugges¬ 
 tion of their agents or otherwise ?—A. They had been sending people 
 by the railroads for some time, sending them in little lots, as I was told 
 by Mr. Adams and others. It was quite a while before I went to see 
 them, but I heard a great deal about their talk, but as it was vague 
 rumor I got over in the cars to see them. I knew there were many kind 
 people contributing funds to the society, and 1 thought it due to them 
 to see the condition of these people and get the best rates that I could 
 for them, so that I could speak to the society and tell them what we had 
 done. Still, we never had any regular meeting about it, but I went for 
 that reason to Baltimore to see their general agents. Some persons 
 said we could get better rates over the Baltimore and Ohio, and some 
 said the Baltimore and Potomac, but I went to see them for mysell. 
 
42 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What rate did yon get; eight dollars with a dollar drawback to go 
 to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And nineteen to twenty-one to Kansas ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then it was cheaper to go to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; and we were 
 glad when they went there on that account. 
 
 Q. What reports did you get as to their getting employment out 
 there?—A. We had good reports. We said we did not want to send 
 them where they would not be provided for. Our object was to aid 
 them in securing good homes and employment and not to benefit any 
 particular person. We sent them out there, and I have letters that I 
 can bring to you showing that they are satisfied. It was our object, as 
 I say, to provide for them in that way. 
 
 Q. State again on what you base your estimate of 2,500 who have 
 gone to Indiana, and whether all of them were from North Carolina?— 
 A. I think not all, but I think they are mostly from there. I may have 
 missed the figures one-half, for I made no note of it as they passed 
 through. I did no clerical duty about the organization, but from the 
 numbers who have passed through at the depot and information I got 
 in one way and another it just seemed so. 
 
 Q. If you have been mistaken iu the figure, which way do you think 
 the mistake has been made ?—A. I overestimated it, for I have been 
 thinking of it overnight. 
 
 Q. Does anybody here know the number?—A. I think Mr. Dukehart 
 would know. He was summoned as a witness here. 
 
 Q. You do not pretend to know the number yourself?—A. No, sir; I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. You say that you might have heard of colored people bulldozing 
 •each other? What is the extent of your information on that point?— 
 A. As the Senator has inquired, the great mass of them are opposed to 
 a colored man voting the Democratic ticket, and where one is inclined 
 that way they have been apt to think he was a renegade and to threaten 
 violence to him. I spoke of their bulldozing in that sense. 
 
 Q. Do you think they would be likely to do that to one another ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So far as you know the sentiments of the colored people in North 
 Carolina, what are they, Democrats or Republicans ?—A, They are Re¬ 
 publicans. 
 
 Q. Then how do you account for a Democrat carrying a certain dis¬ 
 trict in North Carolina, Kitchen’s district; how do you account for its 
 going Democratic when there is a large majority of colored voters in 
 that district ? 
 
 Senator Vance. There were two Republican candidates, Senator. 
 The aggregate vote showed a large Republican majority, and Mr. O’Hara 
 got a large majority over his Republican opponents in the contest. 
 
 Senator Blair. He claims that he was counted out. 
 
 Senator V ance. Yes, sir; counted out by the county returning boards. 
 
 Q- (By Senator WTndom.) I will ask you as to your information about 
 -the treatment of the colored people in North Carolina several years ago, 
 during the time of the Ku-Klux ?—A. That I understood only, but I 
 understood it to be the same as in other States farther southwest where 
 my attention was called. 
 
 Q. How do you account for the exodus from the States of Louisiana 
 and Mississippi?—A. I think it is on account of the abuses the colored 
 people have received. 
 
 Q. What character of abuses?—A. Almost every kind. They were 
 not only maltreated by those in whose employ they were, but greatly 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 43 
 
 outraged as to their rights to vote, and intimidation ruled almost broad¬ 
 cast. 
 
 Q. State as to the effect this treatment in those localities has had on 
 the colored race.—A. It has had the effect to demoralize them and make 
 them discontented throughout the whole South. 
 
 Q. State if they have not a general apprehension of danger and mal¬ 
 treatment all through that section.—A. Yes, sir; I think where they 
 are even treated best their treatment is such as to demoralize them and 
 frighten them. 
 
 Q. Would that have a tendency to make them wish to leave and go 
 somewhere else"?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 By Senator Yance: 
 
 Q. You do not understand that the second district of North Carolina 
 was carried for the Democrats by any violence, intimidation, or threats 
 on the part of the white people?—A. No, sir; I understood that Mr. 
 O’Hara carried it fairly, but on account of the manipulations of those 
 in control, the Democrats, he was cheated out of it. 
 
 Q. Do you understand it was the Democrats who did that?—A. Yes, 
 sir; that some of the votes cast for him were thrown out unfairly, and 
 if he had had the benefit of them he would now have his seat. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that those large Republican counties, where 
 they have three thousand Republican majority, that they are in the hands 
 of Democratic county officers?—A. They are. 
 
 Q. How did they get in?—A. I think the same way as they get to 
 Congress. 
 
 Q. Well, they would have to have a start before they could get in to 
 do these things. How did they get in ?—A, Well, sir, in this same way, 
 I suppose. 
 
 Q. Take the counties of Edgecombe, Halifax, and Warren. Do you 
 understand that they were actually in tfie hands of the Democratic 
 county officers?—A. No, sir; but I take the aggregated number of votes 
 in all the counties; those votes have to be aggregated, and my informa¬ 
 tion, I think, is reliable, though I may be mistaken, that in the aggre¬ 
 gate there was this deficiency ; that if there had been a proper aggregate 
 made of the votes Mr. O’Hara would have been elected. 
 
 Q. I know that is true, that the aggregates are made up in that man¬ 
 ner; but I want to know whether you say the blame is on the Demo¬ 
 cratic officers?—A. I say that as far as I know the blame is on the 
 Democratic party and people. 
 
 Q. In that district ?—A. I do uot want to particularize specially. 
 The county officials in all those counties I named to you are all Re¬ 
 publicans. 
 
 Q. You say you do not know that as a fact ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have all the men who have come here from North Carolina come 
 from that district?—A. I think so, mostly ; but I could not state posi¬ 
 tively, and I do not claim that their greatest trouble is interference with 
 their political rights. 
 
 Q. Now, the districts adjoining, the one to the southeast and the one 
 to the west, are close districts, are they not ?—A. 1 understand so 
 
 Q. And there has been no emigration from the close districts, but 
 all of it has been from those large Republican districts, where the votes 
 could be spared?—A. I have had no particulars except as those people 
 landed here, and no particular data as to where they came from. 
 
 Q. Didn’t it strike you as a little more than an accident that the em¬ 
 igration nearly all came from that large Republican district and went 
 
44 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to this large Democratic State ; didn’t it look a little more like design 
 than accident?—A. Governor, from your standpoint it may, but I know 
 I have no knowledge of any preconcerted plan or arrangement with 
 anybody in North Carolina to forward this movement; but our only con¬ 
 nection with these people has been when they came here and told their 
 own simple story. There has been no arrangement made by us with 
 these people in North Carolina. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Mr. Wall, I wish you to state, from your entire knowledge of the 
 subject-matter derived as a member of the society or from public persons 
 or connection with colored men, and from all sources or any source of 
 knowledge whatever, whether this exodus originated in or is promoted 
 by any political arrangement outside of the States where these people 
 reside.—A. That is from the Northern States, you mean ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. I have no knowledge of the originating of this move¬ 
 ment by, through, or with the assistance of any political influence. 
 
 Q. My question is also whether it is being promoted by any influence 
 whatever"?—A. No, sir; none whatever. I know of no money that has 
 been used to assist it that came from any political sources whatever. 
 
 Q. From your relation to and connection with the colored race of the 
 country, and your residence and opportunities for getting knowledge, if 
 there was any such influence promoting the exodus, do you think you 
 would know it ?—A. I think I should. 
 
 Q. Is there any colored man in the United States, you think, who 
 would know better than yourself?—A. No, sir; I think I should be as 
 likely to know as anybody. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any business arrangement in the North that is 
 employing and stimulating this movement?—A. No, sir; none. 
 
 Q. It has been suggested that some railroad companies have been 
 stimulating it for the purpose of increasing their railroad patronage.— 
 A. No, sir; I was asked that, and I would like to be allowed to correct 
 myself. I see in this miserable Post here it makes me say that Mr. 
 Dukeharthad been down there stirring them up; but I wish to say that he 
 has been down there the same as any other agent for a railroad seeking 
 patronage. I stated expressly that he was not stirring them up, to my 
 knowledge, and I suppose I was reported correctly. 
 
 Senator Vance. It is in the record, and I have no doubt you are cor¬ 
 rectly reported. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You state you know nothing of any political or business influence 
 which is at the bottom of this movement. I would like for you, in a few 
 words, to explain to the committee what you think is the philosophy of 
 the movement; what you think is the relative importance of the move¬ 
 ment in North Carolina, and whether it has any particular significance 
 or whether it is but an incident of a general movement.—A. I will say 
 to the latter part of your inquiry, that it may not be an extensive move¬ 
 ment in North Carolina, but as soon as the masses in North Carolina 
 and the people there generally learn of the success of their friends, I 
 think they will be influenced just as other people are, and that in time 
 it will become a general movement. 
 
 Q. Perhaps you do not understand me. I am not speaking of the 
 laboring classes, or asking about them ; but I ask you, judging from all 
 causes and influences which you know to be operating upon this move¬ 
 ment, is it likely to be as great from North Carolina as it is from other 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 45 
 
 parts of the South ?—A. Yes, sir ; as I stated, 1 think it will be general, 
 growing greater as those who go before have succeeded. 
 
 Q. You have stated some of the causes to be in the nature of abuses 
 put upon the colored people; do you think those abuses are as great in 
 North Carolina as they are in other Southern States ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Then why will the movement assume such proportions in North 
 Carolina as it has in other States ?—A. Because I think this excitement 
 and disturbances about the time of elections will come on once in a while. 
 While these people are a laboring class of people, and live in rural’dis¬ 
 tricts, they will not suffer so much from them in North Carolina as they 
 have elsewhere; but the advantages of the Northwest are so much 
 greater that they will become acquainted with them, and move right 
 along. I think, because of the many advantages of the Northwest that 
 cannot be had in North Carolina, there will be a movement from the 
 one State to the others. For instance, the soil is not so good in North 
 Carolina as it is in the Northwest ; and another great matter of im¬ 
 portance to them is their school advantages. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say the school advantages in North Carolina are 
 less than they are in Mississippi and Louisiana, or where this great per¬ 
 secution is of which we hear ?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Many of the questions here seem to be particularly directed to 
 North Carolina, as though this is a North Carolina movement specially. 
 Do you so understand it ?—A. No, sir; not at all. I did not have North 
 Carolina in my mind when I interested myself about the exodus. 
 
 Q. I do not understand that your organization had anything to do 
 with the exodus'?—A. No, sir; not at first. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the North Carolina exodus, do you look on it as the 
 principal movement, or is the exodus from other States to be regarded 
 as the principal portion of the movement'?—A. Yes, sir; I think the 
 exodus in the Southwestern States is the principal part of the move¬ 
 ment. 
 
 Q. And the North Carolina movement you regard as an incident of 
 it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You state that the soil in the Northwest is better than in the 
 Southern States'?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But I understand you that political proscription is less in North 
 Carolina than in those other Southern States ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yet you think that other advantages in the Northwest and 
 persecutions in the South are the cause of this movement ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, then, will you please state your philosophy of the exodus? 
 —A. This would be my theory: Just after ttie war our people were in 
 good condition. From the wreck of matter and the crush of worlds that 
 passed over us our people emerged into a condition where there seemed 
 to be a little sunlight, and iuto what was for a while a better state of 
 things, and, to use the language that Senator Vance used, our stars 
 seemed to be rising. We got along for several years very well until 
 there were several failures in the law or failure to support the enforce¬ 
 ment act properly, when the men who had been in the rebellion came into 
 power m those States, and they, as seemed to be natural with them, took 
 control of their State governments which they had not had under the car¬ 
 pet-brig governments, and then the things relapsed into pretty much 
 their old condition ; and since then the pressure goes on as all other op¬ 
 pressions do until we have gotiutoastateof things so dark and oppressive 
 that there must be some ventilation. There must be something to make 
 us free again. In order to do this and get into a better condition I be¬ 
 lieve the exodus began. I believe it was a spontaneous movement, and 
 
46 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 if anybody had any agency in it it was our Heavenly Father, the great 
 Creator of us all. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is possible for the controlling element in the South¬ 
 ern States—that is, for the Democratic party, by any chauge in its 
 policy towards the colored people, to gradually put an end to the exo¬ 
 dus?— A. I do think that. 
 
 Q. Do you think the negro wants to go away from there if he n treated 
 well?—A. No, sir ; I think it is his nature to be religious and contented 
 if he is treated well at home. 
 
 Q. Do you think any white population would be willing to reside long 
 at the North or at the South under the same conditions that the blacks 
 have been subjected to, and would the exodus have taken place ?—A. 
 From my knowledge of the East and observation of the white race, 
 I know they would not have remained. 
 
 Q. Is there any change of treatment possible from the dominant peo¬ 
 ple in the South, do you think?—A. I think the exodus will not cease 
 until these people get a change from that treatment which prevails 
 there. I think it would then, and that the colored people had better 
 stay there than in the North. 
 
 Q. Why?—A. Because just after the war, and after this millennium 
 there was going on in the South, my father sent me to the South. I did 
 gravitate in that direction ; but the matter got to be so luminous pretty 
 soon that I stopped right here. 
 
 Q. Ominous you mean, instead of luminous?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say that such was the fact, and that such was the condi¬ 
 tion at the South that the negro began to gravitate towards the South? 
 —A. Yes, sir; I think his old and familiar associations led him towards 
 the land of his home. His parents would like taking him there. I do 
 not think so much of this idea of a hot climate for the negro as others 
 do. But this land gave them a good climate, but a poor soil; but I 
 thought they might overcome that. 
 
 Q. According to your explanation, I think, under the good teachings 
 of Senator Yance this State can be made the Indiana of the exodus ?— 
 A. l r es, sir; I think so. 
 
 By Seuator VANCE : 
 
 Q. \ r ou say you have got reports from these people in Indiana* 
 Who have made them to you ?—A. The principal reports that I have 
 were made by a young man who seemed to have been employed by these 
 people to get them a place to settle in. 
 
 Q. Who were they?—A. They were Perry and Williams; but I have 
 letters from others. 
 
 Q. The principal reports as to employment of these people here are 
 from Perry and Williams?—A. Yes, sir: so far as I know. 
 
 Q. Perry and Williams don’t live in Indiana, do they ?—A. No, sir; 
 not permanently. 
 
 Q. Did they ever live there at all ?—A. No, sir; except to go there 
 on this business. 
 
 Q. Did they ever have a residence there?—A. I don’t know, sir; they 
 are strangers to me. 
 
 Q. Where do they live ?—A. I don’t know where Mr. Williams lives, 
 but Mr. Perry lives here. 
 
 Q. What is he doing ?—A. He is temporarily remaining here, meet¬ 
 ing the people coming from his State. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by that?—A. He is temporarily here, but I 
 think, from what he said to me, that he is going West. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 47 
 
 Q. Where is he now ?—A. He is here with his family, living in a 
 house. 
 
 Q. Where at ? I have been looking for him, and should like very 
 much to know his whereabouts.—A. He is here with his wife and 
 children, I think in a house ou University street. 
 
 Q. How long?—A. I think he has been there two months. 
 
 Q. Where did he come from ?—A. I think he came from North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. How often has he been to Indiana ?—A. I think three or four 
 times. 
 
 Q. When ?—A. Within the past two or three months. 
 
 Q. How old a man is he?—A. I should think about thirty years old. 
 
 Q. Then he reports to you that there is a demand out there for these 
 people ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say so a little while ago ?—A. I understood 
 you to make a remark as to ready employment. He says there is ready 
 employment there for those he has carried out. 
 
 Q. How many has he carried out?—A. I do not know, sir; I cannot 
 answer. 
 
 Q. Who can ?—A. Mr. Williams. 
 
 Q. Where did he carry them ?—A. I said the other day I thought to 
 Greencastle, and I thought about Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. I am just examining you, Mr. Wall, about as to what he says. You 
 are not responsible, understand, for what he says.—A. I am not saying 
 anything about the means he employed, but simply what he told me. 
 
 Q. You have answered when you said that he took them in and about 
 Greencastle?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about Terre Haute or Rockvale?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. That they could get ready employment on farms out there ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And get homes to move into on these farms at this time of the 
 year?—A. Yes, sir; I got that impression somewhere. I don’t know 
 that I heard it from him ; but I got the impression that they were set¬ 
 tled on these places and conveniently situated. 
 
 Q. Where does Williams live ?—A. I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Where did you see him ?—A. I saw him in Washington City. 
 
 Q. When ?—A. I should think six weeks or two months ago. The 
 poor fellow was shivering and I gave him one of my overcoats. 
 
 Q. Did he say there was ready employment to do there for these peo¬ 
 ple ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did it suggest itself to you to tell him to go out there and get some 
 of it when he was shivering and you had to give him one of your over¬ 
 coats ?—A. I don’t think it did. I thought he had been badly treated 
 by some people here, and thought I ought to obey the Bible injunction, 
 when I had two coats, to give my brother one. 
 
 Q. You did not think that Governor Yance’s constituents had stolen 
 his coat, did you ?—A. No, sir; I did not. No, sir; but I thought the 
 poor fellow had been badly treated. 
 
 Q. He was connected with this exodus matter, was he not?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did he come accredited to you in any way ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I was asking you whether he was accredited to you by anybody 
 you knew, so that you would as a matter of business trust him ?—A. 
 No, sir; I do not know whether it was Williams or Perry who, when 
 
48 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 they came, showed me a certificate of good character signed by the 
 mayor or sheriff of Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. You do not know which it was?—A. Iso, sir; I do not know whether 
 it was Williams or Perry; perhaps it was Perry, who said that he was a 
 preacher, and I got the impression that he was a good, honest, upright 
 man. 
 
 Q. You have not seen Williams since?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have no trace of him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you there was ready employment in Indiana for these 
 emigrants?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where?—A. I do not remember the counties; I think one was 
 Elkhart. 
 
 Q. What other county do you remember ?—A. I think Wayne County ; 
 perhaps at Kichmoud, Wayne County. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of any negroes who had gone in there ?—A. I think 
 some have gone in there. 
 
 Q. I wish you would ascertain if any have, as you have better means 
 of information on that point than I. See whether any single car-load 
 has ever been left there. Do you kuow what the politics of that county 
 are?—A. Yes, sir; it is a large Republican county ; I think it is Repub¬ 
 lican. 
 
 Q. And these conversations, you say, with Perry and Williams were 
 your principal sources of information, but you said that you had letters 
 from there. Now, from whom have you letters; give me a single in¬ 
 stance of a letter assuring you of ready employment for colored people 
 in that State ?—A. I cannot state the name just now. 
 
 Q. Where are those letters ?—A. They are on my desk, as I stated 
 to the Senator, but I cannot remember whom they are from. 
 
 Q. You do not remember the names of the writers?—A. No, sir; they 
 are all strangers to me. 
 
 Q. Certainly, but do you remember w hat post offices they came from ? 
 —A. No, sir; I cannot remember. 
 
 Q. Can you remember the points contained in those letters ?—A. No, 
 sir; they will show for themselves. 
 
 Q. How many have you received assuring you of ready employment 
 for colored laborers in Indiana ?—A. A few. 
 
 Q. Give their number as far as you can.—A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. How many, a half dozen ?—A. Yes, sir ; but I told you that I gave 
 the matter of the letters over to the secretary. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t it evolved more from an inner consciousness of your own 
 than any information you have?—A. No, sir; no, indeed. 
 
 Q. We want the facts, Mr. Wall, and I mean to treat you with the 
 utmost courtesy.—A. You have, Senator. 
 
 Q. Of course I do; and I say to you that if it is not a belief evolved 
 from your inner consciousness and you have facts about this matter upon 
 which to base your opinion, I would be obliged for you to give them to 
 us.—A. I will hand you such statements from honorable, fair men. I 
 will be able to give the names of veritable men, and also statements 
 made in newspapers of the facts out there, all of which will show how I 
 make up my opinion. 
 
 Q. Now, you say you have veritable letters from fair and honorable 
 men. Now, I say give me the name of one man such as you have de¬ 
 scribed.—A. Well, I say- 
 
 Q. No, no, give me the name of one such man.—A. Well, sir, there 
 
 Mr. Mendenhall. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 40 
 
 Q. Does he live in Indiana ?—A. No, sir; he lives in Washington, and 
 he is in this room here now. 
 
 Q. That is all right. I will ask him about it.—A. I think I have a 
 letter by Mr. Walker, of Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. J. H. Walker, of Terre Haute*?—A. Yes, sir. I was accredited 
 with bringing his name up the.other day in the matter. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. O’HARA, COLORED. 
 
 James E. O’Hara sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside 0 ?—Answer. Near Enfield, Halifax 
 County, North Carolina. 
 
 Q. State what positions you have held in North Carolina.—A. I have 
 been five years chairman of the board of county commissioners of Hali¬ 
 fax County, engrossing clerk of the constitutional convention in 1868, 
 and member of the constitutional convention in 1875, and I was in the 
 last election nominated as elector on the Presidential ticket, and nomi¬ 
 nated for Congress from the second district. 
 
 Q. You were nominated as a member of Congress from the second 
 district, and you claim to have been elected ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are here now contesting for your seat*?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. O’Hara, will you give us, first, your opinion as to the 
 general condition of the colored people of your country, and then I will 
 ask you some questions *?—A. The general condition of the people would 
 not be considered flourishing when compared with that of the people in 
 more prosperous States. In fact, the general condition of all the people, 
 white and black, in the cotton-fields is not very prosperous. That, I 
 may say, is owiug to our mode of farming in that region ; for instance, 
 all the farmers generally require advances from the commission mer¬ 
 chants in Baltimore and New York to make their crops. The result is 
 that the credit system, going on from the start, keeps up from year to 
 year, and keeps our people poor. If we have a short crop we get very 
 hard-up in the fall, and there is a general complaint of a want of money 
 among the people; but, regardless of that, I think the condition of the 
 people is pretty well in that section of country, but it will not compare 
 well with the condition of the same class of people in more prosperous 
 States. 
 
 Q. W r ell, now, considering the black people as a general rule as la¬ 
 borers without land, what is their condition as a class, and what propor¬ 
 tion of freedom do they enjoy with the white laborers ?—A. They are in 
 equally as good a condition. If the committee will allow me, I will show 
 how that thing is. A great deal of this talk about the negro is erroneous, 
 because his condition is largely a local matter. Not long ago we had a 
 State fair in North Carolina held by the colored people, and in speaking 
 I followed Governor Jarvis, who made the opening address, and I stated 
 in that address that the prosperity of the colored people could not be 
 very well seen at that fair, wdiile it was one of the most creditable that 
 had ever been held, and was acknowledged to be such by the press of 
 the country. I mentioned one fact in my own county, where the colored 
 people have acquired 13,000 acres of land. That statement was doubted. 
 One of our papers, the Roanoke News, doubted this statement of mine, 
 and in order to be more certain I went to the records of the county, and 
 
 4 EX 
 
50 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS PROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 referred back a year. I took the records for 1878 instead of 1871), and 
 the record showed that the colored people of that county had 16,001 
 acres in fee-simple title, and in proportion that is equally true for the 
 counties of Warren, [Nash, and Lenoir. 
 
 Q. You mean they have lands in the same proportion in each county? 
 —A. Yes, sir; in each county. I suppose it would be no exaggeration 
 to say that in my county, which is the next largest negro county in the 
 State—Edgecombe is the largest—the colored people own there in fee- 
 simple title 20,000 acres of land. 
 
 Q. Which is your county ; Edgecombe?—A. No, sir; Halifax. 
 
 Q. And you found 16,601 acres of land owned by negroes?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; on the tax book of 1ST8. 
 
 Q. What doyou suppose is the auiouutowned in Edgecombe County ? 
 —A. Not so much, but probably there are 6,000 acres in that county 
 owned by negroes, for the reason that the people there hold their lauds 
 more intact, and there are larger farms in that county than iu ours. 
 
 Q. Then I suppose the white people are better off in your opinion in 
 that county than in yours ?—A. Yes, sir ; but I will say that the colored 
 people over there do not seem to want to get up and acquire real estate 
 like they do in our county. The people over there like tine horses, and 
 I have known some colored men to pay $300 and $500 for a horse and 
 buggy in the fall, but in our county 1 have always advised them to get 
 a small home and pay for it, no matter how small it was. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the laud in your county ?—A. Our laud 
 is just as good as any other in the State. It is what we call swamp 
 lands and river bottom. 
 
 Q. What could an industrious colored man down there with a mule 
 and so forth make in a year ?—A. I do not know as I could answer that 
 question definitely. I will say this, that they make as much there as 
 their white neighbors do, and I have been more surprised to notice this 
 fall where white men who own land have been compelled to sell every 
 lock of cotton to pay their debts, when I knew several instances where 
 colored men have taken their cotton to market and brought it back home 
 before they would sell it. 
 
 Q. They were not compelled to sell their cotton ?—A. No, sir; they 
 were not compelled to sell it. 
 
 Q. And they refused to sell it at the prices offered ?—A. Yes, sir ; be¬ 
 cause they did not need the money. 
 
 Q. Will you explain whatyou know of the renting system, and whether 
 there is any disadvantage to the colored people in renting land over the 
 same disadvantages experienced by the whites?—A. There can be no 
 •disadvantage to the colored people that will not apply to the whites of 
 the same class. 
 
 Q. Are there any distinctions made by the landlords in renting ?—A. 
 None ; except that in some places the lauds are held high, and I attrib¬ 
 ute much of that to the eagerness of parties to make contracts. There 
 is no difference made by the law between white and colored people; but 
 I will say that v T e have one law 7 in North Carolina which I think bears 
 badly, both to the landlord and to the tenant. 
 
 Q. What law' is that ?—A. The landlord and tenant act. 
 
 Q. I wish you would explain that act.—A. It gives the landlord a 
 lien not only for advances made to the tenant to help him make the 
 crops and so forth, but all debts thatthecropper makes with him wEether 
 made before the crop or by mortgage or not. 
 
 Q. That is to him ?—A. Yes, sir; but it is not necessary that this 
 shcwld be in writing. 
 
51 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Bv Mr. Voorhees : 
 
 Q. Does it allow the landlord all debts due from the cropper, or only 
 such as is assigned to him in person ?—A. I have never seen that ques¬ 
 tion brought up. In all the cases that I have seen it has been in con¬ 
 tract matters. The law operates as bad on the whiteman as on the col¬ 
 ored man. In fact I have been consulted by white men as to this same 
 law as an attorney, and I think as to all its operations it bears alike on 
 white and colored. 
 
 Q. It has been suggested here that the law operates more harshly on 
 the black people than on the white.—A. I do not think that that can 
 be true, for the land holders are in the minority and not the majority 
 among the whites. 
 
 Q. Then I understand you that the laws in North Carolina are indis¬ 
 criminate in their operations ?—A. Yes, sir; all of them. 
 
 Q. Much has been said here before this committee about paying them 
 up in orders on stores. Will you please tell the committee something 
 about that ?—A. That is explained by the system I spoke of when I be¬ 
 gan. A has land which he rents to a tenant; the tenant desires to run 
 his crop ; he comes to towu and must make a mortgage, either directly 
 with the merchant or indirectly through his landlord, to have his sup¬ 
 plies furnished. Of course, under the operation of the law, he must 
 have the word of his landlord in order to get his supplies. If the laud- 
 lord gives him an order to the merchant, that gives him credit, and that 
 is all there is in that matter. I do not believe in any of this talk about 
 a percentage between the merchant and the landlord. What I mean is 
 that A in renting his laud to you and giving you an order on his mer¬ 
 chant, does not divide with him. I have investigated that subject, and 
 I did not find that, to be the case at all. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if you have been in the legislature of North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. Y"es, sir; I have. 
 
 Q. Do not you know that the reason for that law, the landlord and 
 tenant act, was on account of the homestead exemption laws ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I was going to state that. It was thought that a man would take 
 his crop and sell it, and the landlord would not get his rent, and in 
 trying to get out of that extreme we got over into the other. 
 
 Mr. Vance. That is so. 
 
 The Witness. The matter is being talked over very generally, and I 
 think the white people are complaining the most about the operation 
 of that act, and that the next legislature will modify it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. It was an act of the last legislature?—A. No, sir; I think it was 
 three legislatures ago. 1 think it has been in operation from four to six 
 years. 
 
 Q. And you think there is a sentiment among both the whites arid 
 blacks to secure its repeal or a proper modification of it ?—A. Y>s, sir. 
 
 By Senator Vance: 
 
 Q. Your home is in the second district?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From which this emigration mostly takes place ?—A. From which 
 it is said to take place principally. 
 
 Q. Will you please give to the committee your opinion of the causes 
 of this emigration?—A. As to the causes, I do not know only from re¬ 
 port. There is hardly a day since this matter has been mooted, or these 
 circulars sent out- 
 
 Q. Whatcircular?—A. This one referred to in the committee. Ireadit 
 
52 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 only this morning. I mean these pamphlets and circulars by the Kansas 
 Pacific road. Since then a number of people came to me from adjoining 
 counties and asked me what I thought of it. To answer them, I would 
 always take the inducements offered to white emigrants and contrast 
 the two. I said, here they give you different inducements. This pam¬ 
 phlet shows a difference. Here is what they offer white people to come 
 there and settle, and you can do that well in North Carolina, and it is 
 not necessary to go out there to better yourself. They tell me they 
 have been offered—I have never been able to locate who offered it, but 
 they tell me some colored men have done it—that they would get a dol¬ 
 lar a day in Indiana, and get a suit of clothes in Washington. They 
 have often told me that was the inducement held out to them, as com¬ 
 ing from the government, and when 1 told them the government had no 
 hand in the matter it would drop, and I would hear no more about it. 
 We have in our immediate section had none of it, unless it has taken 
 place since I left, and during the last two or three days. I will state 
 that,until recently, emigration meetings were advertised, in which it was 
 stated that I would be present to make speeches. I knew nothing of it, 
 and parties would say to me, U I went to so and so to hear you speak. 
 Notice was brought that you were going to speak, and why were you 
 not there?” and I would tell them that I knew nothing about it. This 
 movement in my State has nothing spontaneous about it, but is induced 
 by a class of persons who come and tell the people they will get better 
 wages by going to Indiana, and that when they get there they will be well 
 taken care of. ‘ So far as there is a political phase to it, I know nothing. 
 When I reached Washington I was informed that there was an emigra¬ 
 tion aid society here, and they said that it was formed to aid these colored 
 people who had been sent from Mississippi and Louisiana to Saint 
 Louis. There was one gentleman connected with it when it was organ¬ 
 ized, who was a vice-president, who stated that Mr. Mendenhall, who is 
 a clerk in one of the departments, stated at the meeting that it would be 
 a good idea to take the negroes from North Carolina and send them to 
 Indiana, as North Carolina was au accessible State from this point. He 
 knowing this, and being a North Carolinian himself, severed his connec¬ 
 tion with the society, and that was at the first or second meeting. 
 
 Q. You mean to say that since you came here you learned that?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I wish you to state if drawing out of their intercourse with the 
 Army of the Union and their subsequent connection and education in 
 the Republican party, the negroes of the South are not more ready to 
 listen to people coming among them with philanthropic pretenses from 
 the North than to their own people at home?—A. I judge so, as the ne¬ 
 gro is of a very sympathetic nature, and will give credence to those 
 who profess friendship before he will to others. He is very credulous, 
 and, even though deceived from time to time, will still take to a man 
 who tells him a good story. That is the reason why I have taken par¬ 
 ticular pains to look after these people in the counties where I practice. 
 
 Q. State in your own way to the committee if in your opinion this 
 exodus is caused by any principles of persecution, political or other¬ 
 wise.—A. It could not be, as we have known all that sort of thing in 
 that section of the country. I did think, at one time, in the counties 
 bordering on South Carolina, and not colored but white counties, that 
 there was a little bulldozing done there, but I thought it was princi¬ 
 pally by people from South Carolina. But in the negro belt I think 
 there is nothing of the kind. In our counties, I think, as a rule, we 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 53 
 
 have bad all oar own officers until recently the election of county com¬ 
 missioners was taken away from us. 
 
 Q. You mean under the recent amended constitution ?—4. l r es, sir ; 
 and I will state for Governor Vance that in bis message, for wbicb be 
 received tbe condemnation of some hot-headed men of bis party, be 
 asked tbe legislature not to interfere with tbe suffrage of tbe people in 
 any way, and for that some of them said they would go back on him in 
 tbe Senatorial contest, and in consequence of it be was a little unpopu¬ 
 lar for a time. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if tbe asperities and barsb feelings between tbe two 
 races have not been disappearing notably since 1870, and gradually 
 giving away to a better feeling ?—A. I do not know of any State in tbe 
 American Union where there is a better feeling between the white and 
 tbe colored people than in North Carolina. It is a very usual thing to 
 see on tbe day of election tbe landlord and tbe tenant, tbe employer 
 and the employe, going to town in tbe same buggy and voting different 
 ways. I have even wondered why it was that the employer could in¬ 
 fluence bis tenant or employe on every other subject except voting. I 
 think I ought to say with regard to Captain Wall’s testimony, as It will 
 all come before tbe House in due time, that in my defeat, or rather my 
 being counted out, tbe Republicans bad more to do with it than tbe 
 Democrats, and I say that the colored Republicans of tbe South have 
 more to fear from tbe white Republicans than from tbe Democrats. 
 And there is always a combination between tbe white Republicans 
 against any intelligent colored Republican who seeks to aspire to office. 
 
 Q. You mean that they want to keep all tbe offices?—A. Yes, sir; 
 and when we say to them that they must divide, they say, bold on ; and 
 when we fight them they count us out. Now, in my own county tbe 
 Republicans bad tbe appointment of commissioners, and because I op¬ 
 posed a certain white man who ran for sheriff bis friends made a com¬ 
 bination and counted me out. That was tbe reason why Mr. Kitchen 
 went on bis bond, and tbe result was to give us a Democratic sheriff on 
 the Republican ticket and to count me out in consequence of this com¬ 
 bination. 
 
 Q. You are a man of intelligence and reading and have information 
 outside of your own locality, and I wish you to state what is tbe condi¬ 
 tion of tbe colored man as a laborer and with reference to some classes 
 of laborers that are not, that is to say, unskilled laborers in tbe United 
 States ?—A. It is a good condition; in fact they are in a better condition 
 in North Carolina than in any other State in tbe Union, from tbe fact 
 for tbe next ten years at least they will not be thrown into contact with 
 tbe Irish and German laborers, and will not have competition with that 
 character of labor. A tendency with the white people generally is,when 
 they require money to live and farm, to go to the towns and cities, not 
 that there is no contest or antagonism between tbe white and colored 
 people, but because tbe white man prefers to live off of tbe farm. 
 
 Q. Then you think there will be no trouble and ought not to be with 
 the negro laborers in tbe South until that class of white labor comes?— 
 A. l r es, sir; but I think it will not come, at least to that section, as that 
 laud is affected with miasma, and tbe white people are subject to it 
 while tbe negro is not. 
 
 Q. What kind of land is it ?—A. It is our very best laud in North 
 Carolina, that properly drained, and it is desirable for them to own that 
 land and cultivate it, because of tbe impoverished condition generally 
 of the colored men of tbe State, and I know men there who have land 
 wbicb cost them $10 an acre, and yet colored men have taken it out at 
 
54 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 $5 an acre. The way the colored man treats his land is this: he will bay 
 it, and the first year he will cut down a few trees and make a small 
 crop; the next year he will cut down more trees, dig a little ditch, and 
 go on this way for four or five years ; afterwards, when you would know 
 liow the property is which he has taken, he cannot tell you himself how 
 he happens to bring the land up, but at any rate he has done so, and it 
 cost him nothing except his labor, and so they prosper notwithstanding 
 that wages are frequently low; they were last year, because the cotton 
 crop was bad and short. 
 
 Q. And we had very destructive floods?—A. Yes, sir, very; and 
 last year we had droughts also, so that the crops were very short, and 
 that caused labor to be very low; and, because of the feeling that exists 
 between the people in that State, I will relate this, that a few Satur¬ 
 days ago the people living in that section of the county called Scotland 
 Neck held an agricultural meeting. White people and black people 
 met together and had a talk about this subject. Richard H. Smith, a 
 white man and leader there, spoke, and I spoke too, and the result of 
 the meeting was that they thought on account of the increase of the 
 price of cotton they ought to increase the wages of the hands, and 
 they did so. As another remarkable fact connected with this, I will 
 state that there are some colored people who hire laborers in that sec¬ 
 tion and are interested in the price of labor. These whites they have 
 property, and have to have labor to assist them in cultivating it, and 
 naturally they want the labor cheap. 
 
 Q. State the condition of the education for children in North Caro¬ 
 lina ?—A. The condition of the children in North Carolina according to 
 our system at present is poor. I mean poor as to all classes ; in our law 
 there can be no discrimination. Eight and one-third per cent, of the 
 property-tax and seventy-five percent, of the poll-tax, I think, is used 
 for school purposes, each class getting its pro rata share, and if it had not 
 been for some oversight in the last legislation, an omission to sign the 
 bill, I think we would have had a very good system of public schools in 
 the State. Of course education is not therefor the poor classes as it is in 
 the District of Columbia, where you have large taxes and have a Federal 
 Government to supply it, and in large cities like New York, but I think 
 it will compare favorable with that in any rural district in any section 
 of the country. I read the report of the Commissioner of Education and 
 see that the schools in the interior of nearly all the States in the rural 
 districts are as nothing compared with the schools in the towns and 
 cities, and I think ours will compare about as favorably as any. We 
 need, however, a great deal of improvement yet, and I think it will come 
 gradually. 
 
 Q. Have you seen the last report of the superintendent of education ? 
 —A. 1 have not. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the number of children attending school in 
 North Carolina is increasing from year to year?—A. Y r es, sir; I know 
 they are increasing from year to year. I think, however, we have made 
 one mistake. I think we have made a sad mistake in the employing 
 of cheap teachers. Our people seem to have got the idea into their 
 heads that $20 a month is paying enough for a teacher, and the result 
 is you cannot get first-class teachers. First-class teachers will not work 
 for such a price as that; but wherever they offer $20 for teachers, they 
 pay the same to white teachers and black teachers alike. I know a case 
 in point: My wife holds a first-class certificate; she receives $20 a 
 mouth, and teaches a colored school. The daughter of Col. David C. 
 Clark, one of the leading white gentlemen of the city, also holds a first- 
 class certificate; and she teaches a white school at $20 a mouth. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 55 
 
 By Mr. Vance : 
 
 Q. This is done in order to make the money spread over as much time 
 as possible?—A. Yes, sir; bat there is another result. The best teachers 
 will not remain in such places, but will go where they can be better 
 paid. Only the poorer class of teachers and persons living there, who 
 are not compelled to rely on their teaching for a support—only persons 
 so situated will teach. 
 
 Q. Has not your State appropriated money for the establishment of a 
 normal school for the education of teachers?—A. We had a normal 
 school at one time. It was at first only temporary, but I think our leg¬ 
 islature has made it permanent. As we advance and get a little more 
 money we will have more schools of all kinds. 
 
 Q. Has not the State also provided asylums for the unfortunate of 
 your race?—A. Yes, sir; the same facilities are offered the black and 
 white alike in that respect. We have a deaf and dumb school for 
 the colored people, under the same rules and government as that for 
 white people; they are taught, fed, and clothed under the same system 
 as the whites. In fact, it is not very long ago since I went through both 
 institutions—the one on one side of our city, the other on the other. 
 They have the same kind of provision, meats, vegetables, and fruits; 
 the same bedding and furniture, carpets, pianos, &c., all the same in 
 both institutions, without any discrimination at all. 
 
 Q. What provision has been made for the insane?—A. Owing to the 
 crowded condition of our present insane asylum, it has been found nec¬ 
 essary to build two others; one for the whites at Morgantown, and one 
 at Greensboro 7 , in what is called the u negro belt,” exclusively for colored 
 people—an institution that will compare favorably with institutions of 
 the same kind in any part of that country; as good as the one they are 
 building for the whites at Morgantown. 
 
 Q. It is not as large?—A. No, it is not as large ; it is not necessary 
 that it should be as large, because our percentage of insane is not as 
 large as it is among whites; and the negro population is only one-third 
 that of the whites. 
 
 Q. State, if you know, what is the character, as a general rule, of the 
 men who are leaving your State ?—A,. As I said before, I cannot find 
 that any of the colored men who have any great desire to acquire a 
 home are leaving. 
 
 Q. Are your most industrious colored men leaving there ?—A. Not 
 that I can discover ; so far as I can learn, it is just the floating population 
 that are leaving. In the interior, in the county of Greene, I do not know 
 how it is about this class of* people ; but I think that in the other coun¬ 
 ties it is just the floating class who are leaving. 
 
 Q. Do you think they are leaving from a voluntary desire to leave, or 
 because efforts are being made and inducements held out for them to 
 leave ?—A. I think that if they were let alone they would remain there ; 
 I do not think that they are leaving for the same cause that people leave 
 Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, &c.; I do not think they would 
 leave but for the agents that are going around through the country 
 making glowing representations and distributing highly-wrought de¬ 
 scriptive circulars, telling how easily houses and lands can be obtained 
 in the North. Of course the laborers, after reading these pamphlets show¬ 
 ing what can be done, and how cheaply they can get to these places, 
 and what provision will be made for them after they reach there, will 
 go; but they do not leave from a voluntary desire to leave at all. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any migration of colored people at all outside of 
 your.district ?—A. I do not know of my own knowledge ; l have heard, 
 
56 
 
 NEGIiO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 however, that some were leaving the county of Nash—that is outside of 
 my district; it is the adjoining county to me 5 only the railroad divides 
 it from the county of Edgecombe. A person not knowing just how our 
 districts are divided might think it was in my district, but it is in the 
 Raleigh district—the fourth district. I hear that along the line of the 
 railway a few have left from Duplin and Sampson Counties ; they are 
 in the third district. The bulk of the migration has been from the coun¬ 
 ties of Lenoir, Jones, Craven, and Greene, which are in my district. 
 There has also been some from the county of Wayne. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any migration from that region to Florida 1 ?—A. I 
 have seen something about that in the newspapers, and I think I can 
 explain to you how that is. It has been for years—for ten years to my 
 own knowledge—the fact that in the spring of the year three or four 
 hundred colored men would go down to what is called the turpentine 
 country ; they go down every spring and return every fall. They go 
 down there to work, leaving their families in North Carolina. They 
 have gone again this year, as has been a yearly occurrence for eight or ten 
 years past. I do not know of any emigration from North Carolina to 
 Florida outside of that. Before I left home I saw two car-loads of these 
 colored people passing through my place going to the turpentine 
 country. 
 
 Q. You said a while ago that there were 20,000 acres of land in your 
 county owned by colored people; please state among how many or 
 about how many persons this land is divided; is it distributed among a 
 pretty large number of small holders, or in what way?—A. I avoided 
 taking into consideration the small lots—half-acre lots, &c. The farms 
 will run from 20 or 25 acres up to 300 or 400. There is one thing pecu¬ 
 liar about this matter; when a colored man possesses land you cannot 
 get him after he has paid for it to mortgage it; he will mortgage any¬ 
 thing else in the world ; he will cling to it under all circumstances. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. They are anxious to retain the advantage of the homestead ?—A. 
 A Great many of them are beyond the homestead law. Just a few days 
 before I left home a couple of fellows came to me, who were trying to 
 protect their homesteads. 1 told them that they w r ould have to pay up, 
 for they had more than the homestead law allowed them. 
 
 Q. You have spoken mostly of your district or section of country ; 
 what knowledge have you of the condition of the colored men in other 
 parts of the State, relative to holding property ?—A. I have pretty much 
 the same knowledge; I have traveled through the State considerably, 
 and have had communication with white and colored people in all parts 
 of the State ; I have conversed as freely with Republicans as with Dem¬ 
 ocrats, and have bad the same facilities as anybody, regardless of any 
 race prejudice; I hud that they make no distinction at all. I have the 
 same information from all over the State as from that particular locality; 
 I know that what I have said about my own district will hold good pretty 
 much the whole State over. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Where were you born ?—A. In New York. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in the South ?—A. Since about 18(12 ; I 
 ■went to North Carolina in the fall of 1802, when I was about eighteen 
 years old. 
 
 Q. Did you come there in the service ?—A. No, sir, merely on a pleas¬ 
 ure trip, with some “missionaries” that came from New York. After 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 57 
 
 reaching North Carolina I engaged in teaching school; I liked the place 
 very well, and so remained there, and have been there ever since. All 
 I have got, and all the associations I have, are there. I now consider 
 it my home, and have for seventeen years. 
 
 Q. Do you feel that you have suffered in your association with the 
 wdiite people, on account of any race prejudice?—A. Well, no more than 
 the prejudice growing out of the peculiar institution of the government 
 as to the two classes of people: no more than J probably would have 
 suffered anywhere else. There is, of course, a feeling of prejudice, such 
 as one would naturally feel and expect. 
 
 Q. Would you not encounter that in New York ?—A. I would en¬ 
 counter it in New York more than in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Are the colored people in North Carolina excluded from places of 
 public amusement, for instance ?—A. I do not know, because we have 
 very few places of public amusement in North Carolina; we have no 
 theaters in my vicinity; I know this, that colored people do go to thea¬ 
 ters; I-have gone to theaters in Italeigh, frequently; and L have seen 
 no exclusion on account of color. I suppose if a colored man should 
 attempt to take a principal seat in a theater in North Carolina he would 
 have the same difficulty as in New York. 
 
 Q. The reason I speak of it is because I see by the papers that a col¬ 
 ored man in New York has brought suit for being excluded from a thea¬ 
 ter?—A. So far as my experience and observation goes, a colored man 
 suffers from such things no more in North Carolina than anywhere else. 
 These are matters that are, and must be, regulated purely by prejudice 
 and feeling, and that the law cannot regulate; I think it is not the prov¬ 
 ince of the law to interfere. 
 
 Q. Are you a planter yourself?—A. No, sir; I practice law. 
 
 Q. The two things go together in the South sometimes ?—A. My ex¬ 
 perience is that when a lawyer attempts to farm, it take his law prac¬ 
 tice to run his farm. 
 
 Q. You are a practicing lawyer ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You gain your living by that profession ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you flud the question of race any obstacle to your receiving 
 fair treatment in the courts ?—A. No, sir, none whatever; I would not 
 tolerate any, and I see no disposition to show any; the law gives me 
 the same privileges as it does any member of the bar. 
 
 Q. And that is freely accorded ?—A. Y r es, sir ; I could give an illus¬ 
 tration ; once I had the misfortune to fly off the handle with a brother 
 
 practitioner, and both of us were placed in contempt; and every mem¬ 
 ber of the bar said as much in my favor as in favor of the other party. 
 
 Q. I think it may be just to state in this connection that one of the 
 things which some of tiie people complain of, one of the reasons which 
 causes your colored people to leave, is that they are not placed on ju¬ 
 ries ?—A. That may be so in a few counties; but as a rule it is not so. 
 No such distinction can be made under the law, because our law requires 
 that the commissioners shall, at certain times, draw from the jury box 
 the names of persons of good moral character, without distinction of 
 color, to serve as jurors. 
 
 Q. Is it not the rule, in all States and countries, so far as you know, 
 that it is the better class of persons who are selected to go on juries ?— 
 A. Generally so. As a rule, persons who have the most at stake in a 
 community, the most responsible persons, are selected as jurors. 
 
 Q. 1 understood you to say that that class of people are not emigrat¬ 
 ing from your State?—A. No, sir; they are not emigrating at all. ^ 
 
58 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 will not go so far as that : there may be some such, but they have not 
 fallen under my observation. 
 
 Q. Have you any observation of the facility with which a colored man 
 would get on to a jury in Indiana?—A. I do not know anything at all 
 about that; but I can tell you what I have found—I am not speaking 
 of the practical part of the thing, whatever the theory may be—but in 
 nine cases out of ten, if a colored man is put on trial, he don’t care about 
 having negroes on the jury if he can get rid of it. I do not know what 
 theories these gentlemen may draw from it, but I find this to be the 
 fact. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. What objection have the colored men to having other colored men 
 on the jury?—A. They feel that they are more easily swayed; if they 
 can get a white man on the jury who is friendly to them, they know that 
 it will take a great deal more evidence to sway him than it would a 
 colored man. They think that a colored man is not tenacious enough 
 in holding on to a previous opinion. When arguments are presented, 
 or appeals to his feelings, or in case of a tie, he is more easy to give 
 over. 
 
 Q. Then they are rather prejudiced against their own race for 
 jurors?—A. As a rule, I should say they are, in the circuit in which I 
 practice. 
 
 Q. Is it to accommodate that prejudice that they are not allowed on 
 juries so frequently as white men ?—A. You misunderstand me, Sena¬ 
 tor; I did not say they were not “allowed” on juries so frequently as 
 white men ; under the law there is no distinction. 
 
 Q. Well, then, in practice how is it?—A. In practice a distinction is 
 made. 
 
 Q. l r ou have a majority of colored men in your county?—A. We 
 have. 
 
 Q. Do you have a majority of colored men on your juries there?—A. 
 I do not know that we have ; that comes a good deal as it may happen. 
 I have seen, in a case where all the litigants were white, nine colored 
 men on the jury! 
 
 Q. Do whites like to have colored men on the jury when their cases 
 are on trial ?—A. Well, as to that I really do not know ; if be can get 
 one of his own employes on a jury, he would rather have him than a 
 white man. 
 
 Q. What proportion of colored men are generally on the juries there? 
 —A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What would be your judgment?—A. Generally, I should say, 
 about one third or one-half; somewhere along there. I know this, the 
 law is, so far as the grand jury is concerned, no true bill can be found 
 without the consent of a colored man ; that is, there must be at least 
 one colored man on the grand jury who conseuts to the finding of the 
 bill. I have never known a grand jury in my own county, or Edge¬ 
 combe, or Warren, to consist of twelve white men—no grand jury of 
 eighteen. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of colored men to white men in your 
 county?—A. About two and a half to one. 
 
 Q. And they constitute from one-third to one-half the jury ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How are they appointed?—A. By drawing out of a jury-box: in 
 making out the jury list they place in the box only the names of such 
 persons as have paid their taxes the preceding year. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 59 
 
 Q. Then there is a tax-law that serves to reduce the proportion of col¬ 
 ored men on the jury?—A. I don’t know that it affects them any more 
 than it does the whites. 
 
 Q. Then why do you give that as a reason why, in a county where 
 there are two and a half colored men to one white man, there are but 
 from one-third to one-half colored men on the jury?—A. I did not give 
 that as a reason ; I merel}" mentioned it as a fact. 
 
 Q. You are giving it as one of the reasons, are you not ?—A. Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. Then what is the reason?—A. I will say this: If I had no preju¬ 
 dice, and if I should draw the jury out of all the names in the box in 
 precisely the same way, the jury would be apt to consist of more white 
 men than colored men. Take a child, and let him draw from the box; 
 A’s name is drawn, for instance; the question is now asked, not whether 
 he is a white man or a black man, but is he competent for a juryman? 
 Is he a man of good moral character? There is this fact to be taken 
 into consideration : owing to the ignorance of the colored men generally, 
 you will have to pick over a larger number of names of colored men 
 than you will of white men to find persons with the requisite moral 
 character for jurors. 
 
 Q. Then the tax-law has nothing to do with it ?—A. It can not have, 
 for it applies to black and white alike. 
 
 Q. Is not a larger proportion of the whites than of the blacks able to 
 pay taxes ?—A. Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not the whites own more property than the blacks?—A. That 
 may be. I think they do. 
 
 Q. Then are not the whites better able to pay taxes than the.colored 
 people are ?—A. Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? I should like to have you explain that.—A. Because, 
 owing to our peculiar system of agriculture, we are all pretty poor; so 
 when the tax-gatherer comes along one is about as able to pay as the 
 other. 
 
 Mr. Vance. In proportion to the amount of the tax in each case ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I thought that was taken into consideration. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. How is it in the other counties of the State ?—A. I speak only of 
 the counties I have been over. 
 
 Q. You say there is a poll-tax, of which 75 per cent, goes to the sup¬ 
 port of the schools ?—A. Yes, sir; and the rest to the poor. 
 
 Q. Is there any other tax for schools?—A. Yes, sir; 8^ per cent, on 
 all property. Under our constitution, our taxes are limited, for all pur¬ 
 poses, to an amount not exceeding G6§ cents on $100. 
 
 Q. You have separate schools for white and black ?—A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any schools for both ?—A. Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. During what proportion of time in each year are the schools now 
 kept?—A. About four months in the year ; sometimes longer. The law 
 provides also that when there is not money enough to support the 
 schools for lour months in the year, a tax shall be levied to support 
 them; but it requires that first the levying of such tax shall be put to a 
 vote of the voters of the township; so if there is not lour months 
 school in any township it is because the voters do not tax themselves. 
 
 Q. Is that tax on property?—A. Yes, sir; it is purely a property tax. 
 
 Q. You said that the colored men had more to fear from white Bepub- 
 lcans than from white Democrats; Avhat did you mean by that ! —A. 
 I said, u intelligent colored men”; men who desire to hold office and 
 to become popular, have more to fear from white Kepublicaus than from 
 
60 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 white Democrats. For if you attempt to interfere and get ahead, these 
 white Republicans will say: “ Hold on! you will prejudice us; that 
 won’t do!” It is the same way, I presume here in Washington ; if you 
 want a negro appointed to any position there is a great deal of diffi¬ 
 culty; if it is a white man you want appointed, you can get him without 
 any great opposition. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of colored and white population in the 
 State of North Carolina?—A. I should say, about one-third black to 
 two-thirds white; we reason it out in that way, on general principles. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the Republicans there are white ?—A. About 
 one-third. 
 
 Q. You mean the white Republicans cast about one-tliird the party 
 vote?—A. Yes, sir; that is what I mean ; that would be the maximum. 
 
 Q. And what you mean by the colored men having more to fear from 
 the white Republicans than from the Democrats is, that the white one- 
 third of the Republican party will demand too many of the offices, and 
 give trouble, and split the party ?—A. Yes, sir; they will form any kind 
 of combination that may be necessary. 
 
 Q. You mean with Democrats?—A. Yes, sir, or with Republicans. 
 
 Q. YY>u have nothing to fear in the way of persecution from the white 
 Republicans?—A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. You refer only to the internal management of the party ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; we have no fear of any persecution. 
 
 Q. Was your competitor—your Republican competitor, I mean—white 
 or black?—A. There were two of them ; one was colored and one was 
 white. 
 
 Q. How was the vote divided between you and the other Republican 
 candidates?—A. I don’t know how much Mr. Thorne’s vote was; Mr. 
 Harris’s was only about 3,000. 
 
 Q. What was the Democratic vote ?—A. Captain Hitehin’s majority 
 over me was 1,022, I believe, as counted. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the colored people “ bulldozing” each 
 other in North Carolina?—A. No, sir; I do not know anything of that 
 kind. 
 
 Q. You say that the laws of that State do not discriminate, as between 
 the colored and the white?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any discrimination in the execution of those laws ?—A. 
 None that I know of. There is this, however: the same discrimination 
 is used there that is used everywhere; for instance, in the courts, it is 
 well known that a poor man, or an ignorant man, in any community, is 
 at a disadvantage. For instance, if he brings a suit he may be unable 
 to give bonds or to employ the best legal talent; he is under some dis¬ 
 advantages—necessarily so—from these peculiar circumstances. That 
 is about the only inconvenience that colored men suffer from in North 
 Carolina; and that is applicable to poor men and ignorant men the 
 country over. 
 
 Q. There is no discrimination in the execution of the laws, either in 
 regard to serving on juries or in the securing of rights in the courts ?—A. 
 None whatever. 
 
 Q. Are white men punished for crimes against colored men the same 
 as colored men are for crimes against white men?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I am trying to find the paradise for the negro, and I think I have 
 found it at last. There is no race prejudice at all down there?—A. 
 There is the same race prejudice that there is between white men and 
 colored men everywhere, but to a less extent than in some Northern 
 States. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN. STATES. 
 
 61 
 
 Q. How is it shown to a less extent than in the Northern States ?— 
 A. In a social point of view. For instance, in the North you will seldom 
 see a white man and a colored man eating together 5 in the South it is 
 nothing unusual to see that. It is nothing unusual in the South to see 
 a white man driving in a buggy and his servant sitting beside him ; it is 
 unusual to see that in the North. That is owing to the peculiar circum¬ 
 stances of the two races. The Southern man knows the negro, the 
 Northern man does not. 
 
 Q. Have you been in the North within the last six or eight years"?— 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you met with any trouble in the North ?—A. I have not; I 
 have avoided that. A colored man when traveling will avoid placing 
 himself in positions where there is any likelihood of his getting into 
 trouble. A colored man traveling with his wife will go by a good 
 many places. 
 
 Q. Have you ever suffered any political persecution in the North ?— 
 A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Colored men vote freely wherever they want to ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 they vote freely in my State. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any political persecution in your State?—A. 
 I said, I think, in my direct examination this morning, that at one time 
 during the reign of the ku-klux on the border of South Carolina we 
 had some bulldozing, but that was not in colored counties 5 we have 
 had no ku-klux in the negro portion of North Carolina at all. 
 
 Mr. Vance. I will say of the ku-klux and their operations — which is 
 a matter that has all gone by—that they were not directed against the 
 blacks particularly, but against blacks and whites indiscriminately. 
 
 By Mr. Windom: 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any ku-klux anywhere else than in North 
 Carolina?—A. I have read of them in the papers. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of them in South Carolina ?—A. I do not pro¬ 
 pose to speak of South Carolina. 
 
 Q. You will speak of whatever we ask you, sir.—A. Pardon me, I 
 meant of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. You have heard of them in South Carolina?—A. O, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they not extend into North Carolina?—A. No, sir; only into 
 the border of the State, next to North Carolina, as 1 said. 
 
 Q. In what part of the State are these counties of which you speak— 
 the county in which yon live and those adjacent ?—A. In the northeast 
 portion, in what we call Eastern North Carolina. 
 
 Q. If there has been no political proscription in North Carolina, what 
 do you suppose Governor Vance meant by advising the ku-klux to in¬ 
 terfere as little as possible with the franchise; was it necessary to inter¬ 
 fere just a little ? 
 
 In answer the witness explained, and afterward Governor Vance ex¬ 
 plained more fully, that this advice had no reference to ku-klux out¬ 
 rages against Republicans or to any interference with the ballot-box or 
 with voters. Under the constitution of 1808 townships elected their 
 magistrates. In 1875 the constitution was amended. In this amended 
 constitution the clause bearing upon this subject was not changed, but a 
 section was added, that the legislature might change the mode of electing 
 magistrates and return to the old mode in practice prior to the war of 
 having them appointed by the clerk of the supreme court. Governor 
 Vance, in his message on the 1 st of January, 1877, referring to this, 
 urged the legislature to allow the people of the townships to elect their 
 own magistrates—to interfere with the franchise as little as possible. 
 
• 62 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. If that was all that Governor Vance meant, why did the hotheads 
 of the Democratic party feel offended with him, as you said ?—A. There 
 was quite an excitement in the Senatorial contest as between him and 
 Judge Merrimon; and the Merrimon men thought it was a good chance 
 to get up a point against Governor Vance, and published through the 
 State that he was catering to the negro element, and said a few words 
 against him. The only cause of it was simply the fight between him 
 and Judge Merrimon. 
 
 Q. Must not a considerable portion of the white people of North Car¬ 
 olina have believed in interfering, or they could not have made capital 
 against Governor Vance by representing that he was opposed to inter¬ 
 fering with the franchise ?—A. I don’t see how that could affect the black 
 people particularly, because it operated equally on every man in the 
 State. 
 
 Q. You say Governor Vance’s enemies made capital against him, 
 charging that he urged as little interference as possible with the col¬ 
 ored vote?—A. You mistake, Senator. He did not say, with u the col¬ 
 ored vote,” but with “the right of suffrage.” 
 
 Q. Do you not think there must have been a sentiment in the State, 
 somewhere or other, to which they could appeal, else they would not 
 have quoted it against him ?—A. They were unsuccessful, I am happy 
 to say, as you see by the fact that he is here. 
 
 Q. They were mistaken ?—A. Yes, sir; they were entirely mis¬ 
 taken. 
 
 „Q. It is true that they did not succeed in beating Governor Vance ; 
 but those people who used this expression for the purpose of making 
 political capital against him must have thought that there was such a 
 sentiment in existence or they would not have used it?—A. We 
 had been agitating for a long time the question of going back to the 
 county government that we had prior to the war, and they thought 
 that a good chance to make prejudice against Governor Vance and 
 at the same time get back to the old system of county government. 
 
 Mr. Vance. The proposition to amend the constitution allowed the 
 legislature to thermit a county form of government if they thought 
 proper, and embraced the power to give the legislature the appoint¬ 
 ment of the magistracy, and the election by the magistracy of all the 
 county officers so as to take the right of voting away from the people 
 if they thought proper, and the allusion in my message was to advise 
 them to interfere with the election of county officers as little as pos¬ 
 sible. What I said was equally applicable to all without regard to 
 politics or color. The county government, in old times, was fixed ; 
 now it is entirely in the discretion of the legislature. 
 
 By Mr. WiNDOM; 
 
 Q. Were these hotheads, who you say took advantage of this ex¬ 
 pression in Governor Vance’s message to make political capital against 
 him, or to attempt to do so, were they opposed to white people vot¬ 
 ing?—A. As much so as they were to colored people voting. 
 
 Q. On what grounds?—A. 1 cannot say on what grounds; but it 
 must have been so, because it applied just as much to white people as 
 to colored people; as much to the western part of the State, inhab¬ 
 ited almost entirely by white people, as to the central portion, what 
 is called the Piedmont section, where there are a very few white 
 people. 
 
 Q. The poor whites are largely Republican, are they not?—A. I 
 never found that to be true. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 63 
 
 A. Is it not true of the white farmers in the mountain districts?_A. 
 
 I have always regarded the politics of the white farmers in Western 
 North Carolina, in the mountain districts, as floating capital; which¬ 
 ever party will give the greatest advantages they will generally vote 
 for; whichever offers them the most inducements will get their votes. 
 
 Q. They were men of strong Union sentiments during the war?—A. 
 Generaliv so. 
 
 Q. You say you think the farmers of North Carolina are as pros¬ 
 perous as those of any part of the country, or more so?—A. I said 
 equally so. 
 
 Q. How do those farmers get along who have no law practice to sup¬ 
 port them ?—A. About the same as farmers generally. 
 
 Q. Did you not say that experience had shown that a man could not 
 carry on a farm in North Carolina unless lie had a law practice to sup¬ 
 port it?—A. No; I said that when a lawyer attempted to carry on a 
 farm, his experience was that it took his practice to support his farm. 
 I meant by that, that if he had any practice at all, he would have to 
 attend to it, and must, therefore, neglect his farm, when he ought to 
 be at work upon his farm ; he would be called away to the courts, and 
 to his office, just at the time, perhaps, when farm work was most press¬ 
 ing, but it would have to be left undone, and farming cannot be made 
 a success in that wav. 
 
 Q. About how many emigrants have left North Carolina, do you esti¬ 
 mate, during the past year?—A. I should say, without pretending to be 
 exact, that there have been probably 2,500 or 3,000, including men, 
 women, and children. 
 
 Q. Within what time has that migration taken place?—A. Mostly 
 within the past six months. 
 
 Q. From what counties has this emigration principally been ?—A. 
 Mostly from Greene, Lenoir, Wayne, and Jones. 
 
 Q. What do the emigrants allege as the cause?—A. The cause they 
 have told me is that they could have better wages in Indiana and Kan¬ 
 sas, better chances of li ving, and better educational facilities than in 
 North Carolina. 
 
 Q, Have you heard of any political reasons?—A. None until siuce I 
 came here. 
 
 Q. By whom, since you came here, have you been told that there 
 were political reasons for this migration ?—A. By a man named Otey— 
 C. M. Otey. 
 
 Q. W hat political reasons did he give you?—A. He did not give me 
 any ; he told me what reason he had heard given by another man. 
 
 Q. What other man?—A. A gentleman named Mendenhall. 
 
 Q. Where does Mr. Otey live?—A. At present in this city. 
 
 Q. How many men have you heard of inducing this emigration from 
 North Carolina?—A. I have heard of several; perhaps half a dozen or 
 more. 
 
 Q. Give their names, please.—A. Ido not know that I can nametkem 
 
 all. 
 
 Q. Give the names of some of them.—A. I have heard that Mr. Duke- 
 hart, for instance, was one of them. 
 
 Q. Who else ?—A. Taylor Evans. 
 
 Q. Is Taylor Evans a white or a black man ?—A. He is a black man. 
 
 Q. Can you name any other person that you know of ?—A. I do not 
 know of any other. 
 
 Q. Were there any others ?—A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. Why can you"not name them?—A. Because in many cases the 
 
64 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 names were not given to me. A colored man would come to me and 
 say, “Mr. O’Hara, a man has been around through our section talking 
 thus and so; what do you say about it!” Perhaps he might tell me 
 the man’s name, and I might forget it; perhaps he might not know the 
 man’s name himself. 
 
 Q. Were they your own people—colored people !—A. Generally so; 
 the colored men would come to me and say, “I heard a colored man, a 
 stranger to me, talking so and so”; or, “they had a little meeting at 
 such a place the other night, and a man made a speech in which he said 
 so and so.” 
 
 Q. Were you ever at any of those meetings !—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear a report of the speeches!—A. Yes, sir; I have heard 
 them reported by many. 
 
 Q. But you never heard anything said down there about any political 
 motives!—A. No, sir; the first person to assign a political motive is 
 the one heard of here—Mr. Mendenhall. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. What wages will a colored laborer receive per month in North 
 Carolina !—A. From $6 to $10 per month ; sometimes $12. 
 
 Q. And board himself !—A. No, not board himself; our rule is mostly 
 payment with rations. 
 
 Q. A monthly payment of frsm $6 to $10, with rations!—A. Yes, sir; 
 and a cabin, besides, generally, a small piece of laud for a garden. 
 
 Q. What are the daily wages in cases where the colored laborer 
 works and receives pay for his work at the close of the day in money ; 
 are there any such cases !—A. O, yes, sir ; in the cotton chopping sea¬ 
 son, for instance. 
 
 Q, 1 mean the average—not when wages are especially high !—A. I 
 was compelled, when I was burned out in April, to employ some labor, 
 and I then paid from 35 to 50 cents a day. 
 
 Q. Would that be about the average of wages per day !—A. That is 
 what was told me. 
 
 Q. What was the work you had for them to do !—A. I had them cut 
 down some trees, and clear away the debris from the place where I had 
 been burned out. 
 
 Q. Ordinary rough, heavy work !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were going to speak of the employment of men at some other 
 work, at which wages were a little better; when was that!—A. During 
 the cotton chopping season wages are 75 and 80 cents a day. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by the “cotton chopping season”!—A. After 
 cotton is planted and comes up, it always comes up too thickly, and it 
 is necessary to go over it with a hoe and cut out the surplus plants, 
 leaving only enough to thrive. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the wages of laborers are throughout the 
 North !—A. No, sir ; but I know this, that the same class of unskilled 
 laborers would not have averaged more than $10 or $12 per month. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that negro labor, which gets 25 and 30 cents a day 
 in North Carolina, gets twice as much there as in the North !—A. I do 
 not know that it does. 
 
 Q. Do you know that that has been pretty generally stated to these 
 colored people!—A. No, sir; I have heard of it. 
 
 Q. You do not know that it is a fact!—A. No, sir ; 1 do not. 
 
 Q. 1 understand you to disclaim that there is any political influence 
 at work in this exodus movement of North Carolina!—A. No, sir ; I 
 have not. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 65 
 
 get 
 
 Q. Did you have any information to give your colored friends as to 
 wages in the North ?—A. Only as I have heard and learned of them.; 
 
 Q. What have you told them that a colored man, who could get 50 
 cents in North Carolina, could get in New York !—A. I have given them 
 no information on that subject. 
 
 Q. Was it not the first thing that one of these colored men, of the 
 class you represent, would ask when he came to you for information ! 
 Didn’t they think they could get higher wages, and save money enough, 
 in a short time, to buy them a farm !—A. Yes, sir ; a great many did. 
 Q. You say a great many expected to get farms. Did they expect to 
 it them without money !—A. I think some of them did. 
 
 Q. You do not think that they are a race of fools, do you ? You are 
 a pretty good illustration, yourself, that they are not !—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You think they have a good deal of mother wit, do you not !_A. 
 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. O’Hara, if you are a fair representative of their interests, 
 you will get their votes !—A. Yes, sir ; though sometimes their votes are 
 bought from them. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that they can look out for number one about as 
 well as average native Americans ?—A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the main portion of them are pretty sharp !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say they expected to get a dollar and a dollar and a half a day 
 jn Kansas and Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, was this expectation of buying a farm—didn’t they expect to 
 get it by earning the money, the same as they would have to do in the 
 South?—A. Yes, sir* that is correct. But you do not seem to get my 
 idea about their situation. 
 
 Q. I think 1 do; and you will pardon me if I examine you after my 
 own fashion. You -wanted to keep the colored voters at home, didn’t 
 you, where you need them yourself !—A. I do not so desire for the pur¬ 
 pose you refer to. 
 
 Q. You are a colored politician, are you not !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are quite as smart as the white ones generally t —A. Well, 
 sir, I do not know as to that. I thought I was called here to answer 
 questions, and not to argue them. But if you desire, Senator, to argue 
 them with me, I shall try to accommodate you. 
 
 Q. You are a carpet-bagger, are you not!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A colored carpet bagger from New York to North Carolina !—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you teach school down there !—A. YAs, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are now a leading lawyer there t —A. I don’t know as to 
 how far 1 am a leading lawyer. 
 
 Q. You came here to Washington as a contestant for a seat from 
 North Carolina in the House !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the jury to pass upon the case is composed of white men !— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And mostly Democrats f —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Aud you think your testimouy is in the line of the general feeling 
 of the colored people of North Carolina —A. Yes, sir; I think it is. 
 
 Q. 1 do not ask you now, Mr. O’Hara, if it is a fact; but, 1 say, do 
 you think you are talking the general views of the colored people of 
 North Carolina !—A. I think I do, Senator. 1 think, in fact, I do repre- 
 sent their views. 
 
 Q. I want to ask you for the state of mind of these people who go 
 North. Do you think that this movement arises from a settled state ot 
 mind on their part!—A. No, sir ; 1 do not. 
 
 5 EX 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 G6 
 
 The Chairman. You asked, Senator Blair, for a state of mind, and I 
 desire to have the witness answer without you doubling questions on 
 him. 
 
 The Witness. You may double the questions as much as you please, 
 but 1 only ask you to allow me to answer them when you do. 
 
 Senator Blalr. 1 do not think the witness needs protection. 
 
 The Chairman. It is an imputation which you have just cast in your 
 previous questions upon the motives of this witness in testifying before 
 this committee that he was a carpet-bagger and a negro from the North 
 who was trying a contested election case against a white man before a 
 white jury composed of Democrats. 
 
 The Witness. J understand fully the imputation, that I was bringing 
 testimony here before this committee in order to affect my case in Con¬ 
 gress. 
 
 Senator Blair. Then 1 say distinctly that I cast no such imputation 
 upon your motives; 1 do not want to be so understood. And now let 
 us resume this examination. 
 
 Q. (By Mr. Blair.) Do you not look at this matter from a different 
 standpoint from those colored men who are emigrating to the North ?— 
 A. No, sir; 1 do not think so. 
 
 Q. Do you know the motive of these men who go to the North ?—A. 
 I think 1 do. 
 
 Q. Will you state what motive or those motives may be.—A. The 
 principal motive, so far as I know, is that they will get larger wages 
 when they get to Indiana; that they will receive a bonus from the gov¬ 
 ernment; and that they will get fuller protection in their property and 
 rights when they get there. My reason for stating these grounds is, 
 quite a number have been to me at my office to ask what the govern 
 inent was going to do for them. They stated that they had been in¬ 
 formed that they were to receive new clothing when they got here to 
 Washington, and were to receive $1.50 a day for their labor in Indiana; 
 and I have invariably stated to them that the government could do 
 nothing for them. I have stated that Congress will not and ought not 
 to give them anything. I am one of those who think the American 
 negro ought to be left to work out his own destiny, and that he has 
 been a foundling and a ward too long already. At the same time, I be¬ 
 lieve that no man ought to be made discontented in his condition sim - 
 ply in order that he may be cheated out of that which he has. 
 
 Q. And you claim, if I understand you, that false representations are 
 made to these people ?—A. So far as the government aiding them with 
 lands and giving them clothes, they certainly have had false representa¬ 
 tions made to them. 
 
 Q. Now, what do you know of the influence of that statement upon 
 these men ?—A. I suppose it had an influence and a favorable one, be¬ 
 cause they acted upon it. Had they not given credence to the reports 
 they would not have gone, I suppose. 
 
 Q. What man who went out in counectiou with the exodus to the 
 West has ever told you why he had gone?—A. 1 saw several who said 
 they were going there because of these statements. 
 
 Q. But you informed them properly at the time, did you not?—A. I 
 do not remember, sir; I generally do. I have seen large numbers of 
 these negroes in transitu. 
 
 Q. Have you known any of those that went out to come back?—A. 
 Yes, sir; but I have not been down in that section of the country 
 where they went from much of late; in fact it is not yet time for many 
 of them to get back. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 67 
 
 Q. That was about six months ago, wasn't it, Mr. O’Hara?—A. I be¬ 
 lieve about it. 
 
 Q. It was six months ago, was it not, Mr. O’Hara, when this exodus 
 first begun?—A. I believe it was. 
 
 Q. You have known all the time that these things were true?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that these statements that you say were false and were mis¬ 
 representations had been circulated among these people?—A. I think 
 I have. 
 
 Q. And you have contradicted them pretty generally?—A. Yes, sir, 
 so far as the government provisions were concerned, and as to what 
 they would receive when they got there, but not as to the wages, for I 
 did not know much about them. I have done this, however, with refer¬ 
 ence to that: I have shown them from the published reports that laborers 
 did no£ get a dollar and a half a day. The wages paid about the towns 
 and cities and by corporations might sometimes be higher than that 
 paid to the average laborer for day work, but in that case I suppose it 
 is like it is everywhere else—the men are paid more than on the farms, 
 and sometimes paid more for their political influence than for their labor. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether these contradictions have been as universally 
 circulated as the statements themselves?—A. Not at all, sir. 
 
 Q. And the exodus is still going on?—A. I have heard of a number 
 who are still going. 
 
 Q. Do not you know that it is increasing?—A. No, sir; my under¬ 
 standing is that it is decreasing. I think most of it is from the counties 
 of Lenoir and Greene, where I have not been recently. 
 
 Q. Then your information is not sufficient for you* to speak of those 
 counties?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not mean or claim to give to the committee information 
 regarding the exodus outside of your own State?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Who was your competitor in your last race for Congress ?—A. 
 Judge William Throne. 
 
 Q. He was a white man, was he not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a rivai candidate for the place?—A. Yes, sir; and a carpet¬ 
 bagger from Pennsylvania. 
 
 Q. Well, he was a carpet-bagger just as you were, from the North ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I used the term as it has been used pretty much throughout the 
 country, and only because I thought it remarkable to And a colored 
 man in the South who was a carpet-bagger.—A. I take no offense at 
 the application of it. I went there to live among my people. These 
 are not alone the views I have expressed here, aud I have not expressed 
 them in view of my present contest in Congress, but I have expressed 
 them everywhere in private aud in meetings of the colored people in 
 North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Judge Throne was a white Republican, you say ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many did he poll in the election?—A. I do not know, sir, 
 and I cannot remember. 
 
 Q. It was a very trivial number, was it not?—A. Yes, sir; but the 
 reason of that was- 
 
 Q. I did not ask for the reason ; I asked if it was not a very trivial 
 number of votes that he received.—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your other competitor was a colored man ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many votes did he have?—A. I think about 3,000. 
 
 Q. How many votes did you have as a fact and as you claim ? A. 
 About 17,000. 
 
68 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. How many majority was there against you as counted;?—A. 
 thousand and some odd. 
 
 Q. Now, if the entire Republican vote for Throne and yourself! and 
 Harris had been cast for one man, he would have been electedRy a very 
 handsome majority ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Out of that large number of votes, how many do you sup pose* were 
 white men ?—A. I do not suppose there were a hundred. I see that a 
 couple of Quakers voted for me. 
 
 Q. How man Democrats were colored ?—A. I do not suppose there 
 were more than 50 or 75. I have not learned of any colored men who 
 voted that way in my section. 
 
 Q. How many Democratic votes were counted against you ?—A. I 
 believe Captain Ivilehin’s vote was 1,022 majority. 
 
 Q. Now, will you give us the number of colored votes cast in your 
 district, and the way those votes were divided between the parties f 
 Your vote was about 17,000?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your colored competitor 3,000 ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Throne’s how much ?—A. Very few, sir. 
 
 Q. Less than a thousand ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will 500 do for him ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. A reasonable aggregate for him would be 500, you say*?—A. Yes, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How many Democratic votes were polled ?—A. 10,500. 
 
 Q. The Republican votes, all but 200, are colored, and that leaves 
 about 22,200 colored ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all the Democratic votes were white, you think, except about 
 75 % —A. Well, say give them 200 who are colored. 
 
 Q. So it comes to this, that in this district, where the right of suffrage 
 is free, and the colored people are substantially united, and for the Re¬ 
 publican party, a white Democrat is sent to Congress to represent the 
 district ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea that the same thing is done in the other States 
 as between the two parties ?—A. I do not know, as 1 have not been 
 there to see. 
 
 Q. If you have any opinion on the subject please give us that.—A. I 
 have not one. 1 should only know T about that from what 1 have read 
 and heard, but as to our own State 1 know just how it stands. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. On this question of wages, Mr. O’Hara, I wish to ask you a few 
 questions. Where the wages are 35 cts. or 50 cts. a day, do you mean 
 that that is where the man boards himself or where his employer boards 
 him?—A. I feed those whom I hire, and it is generally understood that 
 they are fed when hired by the day. 
 
 Q. You feed your hands and give them rations ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have no understanding, you say, that the prices paid to 
 laborers are better or very much better in Indiana than in North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. For that class of farm laborers I do not think so. 
 
 Q. In these circulars that you read to these people and that were 
 used by you to show the inducements offered to white emigrants, what 
 was the general rate set down there?—A. From $10 to $15 a month; 
 ranging between that. 
 
 Q. And you say as an average the rate was about $12 ?—A. About 
 that. 
 
 Q. Well, that is not much different from what the colored laborer gets 
 in North Carolina, is it ?—A. No, sir - and then I took into considera- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 69 
 
 tion this other fact that in North Carolina he would never have to com¬ 
 pete with the German or other foreign labor, and besides, so far as I 
 know.no matter what the compensation for their labor is, there are 
 colored men who will not work. Then there are others who can always 
 get work. Again, in the North white mechanics and skilled laborers 
 will not work at the same bench or on the same house with the colored 
 mechanic, but there in our State the colored mechanics, carpenters and 
 brick masons, have pretty much the monopoly of the work, and hence 
 it was that I stated to them to stay in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. The question was put to you by Mr. Blair as to whether you are 
 singular and alone in your views with reference to this emigration. I 
 ask you what is the fact as to the leading and the most intelligent men 
 of the country in the Republican party of your section?—A. I think I 
 express their views, and if you will allow me, I think I have a paper 
 here giving an account of a meeting held in Raleigh, which I will show 
 to the committee. 
 
 After searching for the paper the witness said : 
 
 I have not the paper here, but I will show it to the committee at some 
 other time. 
 
 Q. Mr. O’Hara, as I understand, your people are publishing a good 
 many newspapers. Will you please tell us some of them?—A. Well, 
 sir; The Journal of Industry, at Raleigh, The Star of Zion, at Concord, 
 The Concord Pilot, The Raleigh Standard ; I think about six in all. 
 
 Q. What proportion of those papers are supporting this movement ? 
 —A. Not one of them. 
 
 Q. You state that the eutire colored press of North Carolina is oppos¬ 
 ing it?—A. Yes, sir; every one so far as I can hear. 
 
 Q. All of them without a single exception are throwing obstacles in 
 the way of this emigration ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Take Mr. Frederick Douglass, I believe he is regarded as a repre¬ 
 sentative man of your race ?—A. I think he is. 
 
 Q. I have been informed that lie is opposed to it ?—A. I believe that 
 lie is, and in fact nearly all of our prominent colored people are opposed 
 to it except these few men hero about Washington. I am in communi¬ 
 cation with a number of intelligent colored men, all of whom are op¬ 
 posed to this emigration. 
 
 Q. You think the weight of influence of these intelligent colored men 
 is all opposed to the movement?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the influence of these colored men in this 
 city who are helping the movement?—A. I cannot say, sir; I have not 
 conversed with any one of them upon it, and have been otherwise en¬ 
 gaged. 
 
 Q. There, is however, a wide diversity of opinion between them ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. • / 
 
 Q. That is, so far as you know; and so far as you know, the press of 
 your State is opposed to it?—A. Yes, sir; I may say the entire colored 
 and white press of the State. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You say the leading colored men are all opposed to the exodus ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. You spoke awhile ago of the intelligent colored, men of the coun¬ 
 try. Do you mean to confine the word “country ” to North Carolina ?•— 
 A. No, sir: I did not mean to say that North Carolina was the entire 
 country. 1 said the entire press of North Carolina, and a large propor¬ 
 tion of the colored men whom I have conversed with are opposed to it. 
 
70 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Well, I understood you to make the remark as applying to the 
 country generally f—A. I do not know, sir, as I did. 
 
 Q. Well, now, wliat is the truth, Mr. O’Hara, as to the intelligent 
 colored people of the country generally 1 —A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Ho you know anv of the intelligent colored people of the country 
 who are opposed to it ?—A. I do not know, sir, that I could name any. 
 I am not busying myself to keep in communication with them on the 
 subject. 
 
 Q. Ho you know anything of the actiou of the national colored con¬ 
 vention last year at Nashville on this subject f—API was invited, but 
 as I thought I saw the linger of two or three men in there whose pur¬ 
 poses I suspected, I did not go. 
 
 Q. You do not know, then, what its action was ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor the views of the colored men of Georgia, Alabama, and Mis¬ 
 sissippi and the other States, who were gathered together there ?— 
 A. No, sir; I do not. All I know relates to North Carolina, and I 
 know a number of the prominent men of the State are opposed to the 
 exodus Irom there. 
 
 Q. Who are they ?—A. T do not know that 1 can particularize them, 
 but I know the fact from speaking with them in social gatherings and 
 casually. 
 
 Q. I wish you would repeat that remark reported to you by the gen¬ 
 tleman as having been made by Mr. Mendenhall.—A. Mr. Otey, ot 
 this city, stated that the object of the association at first was to aid 
 those parties who had emigrated from Mississippi, Louisiana, and other 
 places, and who were reported to be suffering in Saint Louis and de¬ 
 pending upon their cold charities. Mr. Otey became a member of the 
 society and thought that was the object of the society until Mr. Men¬ 
 denhall suggested that Indiana was a doubtful State, and he thought 
 it would be a good idea to take the negroes out of Virginia and North 
 Caroliua, as they were States of easy access, and remove them to In¬ 
 diana to carry the State. 
 
 Q. Ho you know the time when that was said or alleged to have oc¬ 
 curred?—A. I thiuk I do ; it was at the first or second meeting of the 
 association. He had been elected vice-president of the society, and on 
 account of that he severed his connection with it. 
 
 Q. He is an editor, I believe ?—A. Yes, sir ; the editor of The 
 Argus.” 
 
 Q. Where is that paper published ?—.V. Here in Washington City. 
 
 JBy Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Ho you know of any one having been to North Carolina.for of any¬ 
 thing having been done aboutthis exodus until Perry and Williams came 
 from there last October with some of these people ?—A. I do not know 
 anything about Williams, and I do not think that Perry was out of the 
 State until some two months ago. I was down in La Grange at the 
 place where he lived, and asked about him, and then it was they told 
 me he was engaged in this emigration business. 
 
 Q. They resided there in North Carolina, did they not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you know of any actual exodus until they came into it ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. I knew it had been worked up and excursions had been 
 given to various points and speeches made in the interest of the removal 
 of the colored people. 
 
 Q. Of course it was worked up, or these men would not have left the 
 State l —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you knew nothing of it when it was being done ?—A. Ye>, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 71 
 
 sir; t knew it only in a general way, and did not pay much attention to 
 it at first. 
 
 Q. And these men Perry and Williams you say wereaetnal residents 
 of the State f—A. Yes, sir ; and 1 do not think that Perry left there vol¬ 
 untarily. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What were the compelling motives, Mr. O’Hara ?—A. I do not 
 state that. I think the records of the State will show. 
 
 Q. You can tell it yourself, if you know, as this investigation is very 
 open and wants all the facts'? 
 
 Senator Blair. I do not think, Mr. Chairman, we ought to allow this 
 man to guess at it I 
 
 Senator Vance. L would not like to guess at it myself. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned to Saturday, January 24, at 11 
 o’clock a. in. 
 
 F O U R T II I) A Y . 
 
 Washington, Saturday , January 24, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. Present, the chairman 
 and all the members of the committee. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. J. P. I) UK EH ART. 
 
 John P. Dukeiiart sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Dukehart, where do yon reside ?—Answer. Baltimore. 
 
 Q. What is your full name!—A. John P. Dukehart. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided in Baltimore l —A. Fifty-live years. 
 
 Q. I take it it is your native place ?—xY. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what your business is at this time.—A. 1 am Southern pas¬ 
 senger agent of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. 
 
 Q. How long have you been passenger agent of that road ?—A. Six 
 years. 
 
 Q. What were you before ?—xY. I was conductor on the road. 
 
 Q. Between what points?—A. Baltimore and Washington; also 
 Wheeling, and in fact over the entire road. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the service of the Baltimore and Ohio 
 Railroad ?—A. Next April will be thirty years. 
 
 Q. You may state whether your road isengaged in carrying the colored 
 emigrants from North Carolina ?—A. Yes, sir; we are carrying all that 
 1 can sell tickets to. 
 
 Q. Have you the number of persons that you have been selling tickets 
 to ?—A. I cannot tell how many tickets we have sold. I never took 
 any account of the children who went over the road. Of course we can 
 tell by an examination of the books how many tickets have been sold, 
 both wholes and halves, but I do not know the entire number of people 
 who traveled over the road, men, women, and children. 
 
 Q. Above what age are children required to have tickets ?—xY Five 
 years. 
 
 Q. And all children above that age have tickets to show for ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
72 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. When did this movement commence?—A. The last Whitsun¬ 
 tide, which is the great holiday for negroes, I received orders from our 
 department to go to Weldon and look to this movement of the exodus, 
 which T did, and when I arrived there I found the Pennsylvania Rail¬ 
 road and the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad already interested in it. 
 The whole movement fell through at that time on account of a want of 
 confidence in the negroes; but about the 25th of October I received a 
 notice to go to a place called Le Grange, in North Carolina, and had 
 my attention called to two negroes named Perry and Williams. I was 
 to see them at once. I was engaged at that time in securing a number 
 of emigrants from Midland, in Virginia. 
 
 Q. Were they white or colored ?—A. White. You know, Senator, 
 there is a great deal of competition in this business. I received a tele¬ 
 gram from Baltimore saying that the Pennsylvania agents were there 
 at Le Grange, and were trying to get this emigration. I went to see 
 Perry, and gave him the established rates over our line of road and left 
 him; and in ten days I received another order from our road to go to 
 Le Grange, as the party were about to leave and had money to pay their 
 
 way. 
 
 Q. What month was that?—A. That was in the month of November. 
 I went there and found that there were forty ready to leave, and all of 
 them were going to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. To Indianapolis ?—A. Yes, sir. But I only got them to purchase 
 eighteen tickets, on account of their being told that when they reached 
 here they would receive their tickets here at Washington. Perry was at 
 the train at the time. I took them to the train. They were t,o raise me 
 $270 to pay for their tickets, and they did not raise it for me at the 
 time; in fact I had to hold the train. 
 
 Q. Where was that?—A. That was here in Washington that I am 
 speaking of; after they got here. 
 
 Q. Who was to raise the money ?—A. Thiscommitteeof the emigrants’ 
 society. 
 
 Q. Who was that committee composed of ?—A. Of Wall and Adams. 
 Adams paid me the money himself. 
 
 Q. How much ?—A. Two hundred and seventy dollars' 
 
 Q. Mr. Dukehart, was that the first lot that went over your road ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they engage for that lot before they left North Carolina ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you brought them this far on their responsibility, or did they 
 have the money raised for you ?—A. It was raised for me. They paid 
 their way from North Carolina all the way through here, and then they 
 paid from Washington through to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. And before you would let them go from here they were made to 
 pay to Indianapolis?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that money, you say, was raised by this committee?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. In a general way, let us know what plan you finally fell upon for 
 carrying these people to Indiana—what the arrangements were in de¬ 
 tail.—A. The first arrangement was made on the Wilmington and Wel¬ 
 don Railroad, and they were to give a $15 rate from GoUlsborough to 
 Indiana. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. That is, the Wilmington 
 other roads?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 and Weldon was to prorate with 
 
 the 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 72 
 
 4 «J> 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Tlie Baltimore and Ohio Railroad lias no road south of here ?—A. 
 No. sir. 
 
 Q. And you went, you say, as the Southern agent to get this busi¬ 
 ness ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, And you stated to them to make a rate of $15, and prorated 
 among themselves, that is, the roads between here and Goldsborough, 
 and when they got here your prorate would be $9 on to Indiana?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the first arrangement?—A. Yes, sir. After forty-four 
 tickets had been sold the Wilmington and Weldon flew the track and 
 went back on us and demanded their second-class rate of $3.15 for each 
 ticket, and we could then issue no more through tickets. That left us 
 in the dark. We fished around there, however, bidding for rates. The 
 whole town was filled with people, and we had a great deal of trouble 
 telegraphing backwards and forwards, and finally we got a rate of $10.00 
 to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Dukehart, of an alleged 
 drawback of one dollar. Tell us about that.—A. Well, sir, in working 
 for this business there is a commission allowed to the leader of all par¬ 
 ties. In that party at Midland I gave a dollar drawback. It is a thing 
 established by all the lines, I believe, and in Wilmington I agreed to 
 pay a dollar commission on every passenger that the agent got. 
 
 Q. Who was that agent ?—A. Z. Taylor Evans. I paid him a dollar 
 for every full ticket, and a half dollar for every half passenger. 
 
 Q. You say that was Z. Taylor Evans?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is he a black man himself?—A. He is pretty black and has thick 
 bps. 
 
 Q. Was that money paid by him for these tickets?—A. No, sir; lie 
 only got his own commission. I have always paid every cent in Golds¬ 
 boro’ to Taylor Evans. 
 
 Q. You say that Wall and Adams came to you and paid for forty of 
 these negroes ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you estimated that that came to $270 ?—A. Ves, sir. 
 r Q. And on all moneys paid by this emigrant aid society, do 1 under¬ 
 stand you they received back a dollar for each person ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 On every ticket paid for by money furnished by them I paid them back 
 a dollar. 
 
 Q. Have you any means of stating to the committee how many pas¬ 
 sengers, half and whole, passed through this point ?—A. Yes, sir; 1 
 can tell you all who passed from this Southern country through. 
 
 Q. Will you please give to us the figures as near as you can ?—A. 
 The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Company has sold to these emigrants 
 763 tickets, and out of that number there were 235 half tickets. That 
 was all the tickets sold by us going west. I take a little pride in the 
 fact that I sold to all that were sold to. I think that I was able to 
 capture all who went to Indiana, and the other roads got nothing. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us what the proportion of the money that was paid 
 for the transportation of these emigrants was furnished by this commit¬ 
 tee from this point on ?—A. I cannot say, sir. All that I know about it 
 was the $270 paid me. There were a large number in North Carolina 
 who raised the mouev to pay their fare to Washington. There were 
 164, I think, on the second trip. There were a very large number on 
 board the'train who had no tickets, and the conductors came to me and 
 said, “ What shall we do with them ? ” 1 said that I did not propose 
 
74 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to take charge of them and charge my company with the expense cf 
 bringing them here, and they put off about 500. 
 
 By Senator VANCE: 
 
 Q. Where was that ?—A. At Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. But there were 104 who came through to Washington.—A. I took 
 a sleeping-car and came through with them myself. On that train there 
 were 05 who were ready to pay their fare, and I sent them through a: 
 $10.00 a head. The others were taken to a church here and kept there. 
 
 Q. That is the second party that you speak off—A. Yes, sir; that is 
 the second lot, 104. That is the largest lot that ever came over the road. 
 
 Q. Did the committee pay you for it f—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whom did they pay it to i —A. To our ticket agent. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many were sent f—A. They went off in separate 
 lots as the committee raised the money. I think probably some of them 
 are here yet. 
 
 Q. Did the ticket agent pay the drawback to them ?• -A. 1 do not 
 know, sir. I was not here. There was an arrangement 1 know to pay 
 the drawback, and it might have been settled in Baltimore. 
 
 Q. You are the Southern passenger agent of the railroad ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. You are allowed to make arrangments with different parties to get 
 up passengers for the road ’—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the fare from your depot down here to Indianapolis f—A.. 
 Sixteen dollars, limited tickets, three days, tirst class. 
 
 Q. Are your emigrant tickets the same, f—A. Yes, sir; they are ti e- 
 same for emigrants. 
 
 Q. You make no distinction as to color ?—A. None in the world. 
 
 Q. With what road did you have your principal competition for this 
 business f—A. The Pennsylvania and the Chesapeake and Ohio Roads. 
 
 Q. And you beat them by bidding better than they did ! —A. f do not 
 know, sir. They watched us as close as we watched them without get¬ 
 ting up a railroad war, which Garrett and Scott are both afraid of. 
 
 Q. You say that Taylor Evans was an active man in the business; do 
 you know where he lived ?—A. At Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of his motives in recruiting crowds of emi¬ 
 grants to go to Indiana f—A. No, sir. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do von know from what he has told von f—A. He tells me that 
 he commenced this thing a year or eighteen months ago, speaking about 
 in the country and working up the movement. 
 
 Q. What did he tell you about secret societies for the purpose?—A. 
 Nothing at all. 
 
 Q. And you have never heard anything about that even from him ?— 
 A. No, sir; not even from him. You would be surprised if you were in 
 my office in Lynchburg to see the proposals and letters sent to me say¬ 
 ing u I have five hundred emigrants ready to go to Kansas,’’and asking 
 for rates of fare and all that, and if you go to the place you will prob¬ 
 ably find one or two men ready to go and neither one of them with 
 money enough. 
 
 Q. Mr. Dukehai t, you have been mixing with these people down there 
 please state what their idea is as to the wages they will receive and 
 what they will get when they go to Indiana. Have you seen any of 
 those chromes of the. homes they are to receive or any of the circulars 
 that have been distributed among them ! —A. I have seen some of the 
 circulars among them stating that good wages would be paid. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 75 
 
 Q. How much ?—A. Well, about a dollar, a dollar ten, and a dollar 
 and a half a day. 
 
 Q. For what sort of labor ?—A. For farm hands. 
 
 Q. With or without board ?—A. I didn’t see as to that. 
 
 Q. Whom were they signed by 0 ?—A. These things emanated, I believe, 
 from 44 The Greeneastle Banner.” 
 
 Q. Is that a paper published in the town of Greeneastle, Indiana?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they were published from that paper as editorials ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; and also statements published in that paper made by negroes who 
 had gone out there. 
 
 Q. Were they not principally distributed about there by Perry, Will¬ 
 iams, and Scott ?—A. I never saw Perry’s or Williams’s names there : 
 they did their business principally through mass meetings. 
 
 Q. You stated in the opening of your testimony, I believe, that Perry 
 left North Carolina suddenly. Have you any explanation of why he left i 
 .—A. They had him indicted by the grand jury in La Grange for forg¬ 
 ing school certificates, and he left a hundred dollars which was raised 
 by his church people to make his bail, and he came away and has not 
 gone back. 
 
 Q. You stated something of the competition. State if you have any 
 information as to any other road moving for this business ; if so, please 
 state it.—A. The last party,I brought through came last week—at least 
 f secured them, and the Chesapeake and Ohio were bidding for them 
 $2.50 less on the ticket, but I held on to them. I have a telegram this 
 morning that they are, through their agents, about to establish a:i office 
 there to sell tickets to this business. 
 
 Q. Where is that ?—A. At Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. I will get you to give me the names of the parties connected with 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company who know these things ?— 
 A. Well, sir, there is Mr. J. C. Dane, the Southern passenger agent, resi¬ 
 dent at Richmoud; and Henry Washington, at Greensboro 1 , is also an 
 agent of that road. 
 
 Q. Mr. Dukehart, you have spoken of receiving a great number of 
 letters proffering crowds of emigrants to go west. Is it well understood 
 among these people that any person gettiug up a crowd will get a 
 dollar a head for them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, between you and Evans it was a secret arrangement?—A. 
 A. No, sir ; everybody did not know of it, I suppose, because those who 
 pay for a single ticket do not get any drawback, but this is a special 
 arrangement. 
 
 Q. Then the understanding is that you, as agent of the Baltimore and 
 Ohio Railroad Company, have authority to employ an agent where he 
 gets a dollar on every ticket that he sells to one of these crowds ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 0. And you would feel authorized to employ anybody as an agent 
 who would furnish you a sufficient number to make it an object to get 
 them over your road ?—A. L would employ them for the time. 
 
 Q. That is, you give the drawback when there is a party all going 
 together ? Then if a party, by mass-meeting or by church excitement or 
 otherwise, were to get up fifty men and women to go over your road it 
 would be worth $50 to him ?—A. Yes, sir, after you had sold the tickets. 
 
 Q. Then there was that inducement held out to Ferry and Williams 
 and all these people who were working in this business ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 that is what all the trunk lines do. 
 
 Q. And these colored men understood that ?—A. Y r es, sir : all of them. 
 
76 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a number of persons coming to the train to go away, 
 more than were provided with tickets. How many were there ?—A. I 
 cannot tell you, sir. 
 
 Q. Why didn’t they go?—A. Because they did not have money to 
 pay for their tickets. 
 
 Q. Do you know what representations were made to them as to tickets 
 being given to them by the government?—A. I do not know as to that; 
 but I think they were told that after they get to Washington they would 
 have a new suit of clothes and free transportation to Kansas and Indiana. 
 
 Q. And Evans, who was acting as your agent, was telling those tales 
 to these people ?—A. I will correct you, Senator. It was Perry and Wil¬ 
 liams who circulated the report. Evans did not have anything to do 
 with it. 
 
 Q. Then Perry and Williams told these people that after they got to 
 Washington they would be furnished a new suit of clothes and be given 
 a free ticket to Kansas or Indiana?—A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Perry was a preacher, was he not?—A. No, sir; he was a school • 
 teacher. 
 
 Q. Was he not a preacher also?—A. No, sir; I never heard that lie 
 was. 
 
 Q. Well, Williams was a preacher?—A. Yes, sir; but he went to 
 Kansas with the first party, and has never returned. 
 
 Q. You say that they operated by mass meetings?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They got up quite a great deal of excitement, did they not?—A. 
 Yes, sir; and they were sent out there by these people to prospect 
 and see that everything was favorable to their coming. 
 
 Q. And in these parties that you carried over the road there were no 
 dead-heads except the children?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And no dead heads except those who were under five years of 
 age ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You consider that a very great inducement to people who are emi¬ 
 grating, to carry children under five years free?—A. Yes, sir; that is 
 the rule. 
 
 Q. Did you carry other people’s children free?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did'you hear of any polities being discussed in this matter ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything of it from Perry or Williams ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not discuss it with them?—A. No, sir; on the contrary, 
 
 I have not hadanytbingtodo with it. Isaid, “lam here to sell you these 
 tickets. If you don’t want them I can get out.” I will say, with ref¬ 
 erence to the first party, that when I was trying to get rates every day 
 at Goldsboro it was dark when I got the rates, and the negroes were 
 all of them quartered in a church at Little Washington. I was up¬ 
 stairs in the hotel, and I got my tickets out of my satchel, went down¬ 
 stairs into the back yard, kicked a board off the fence, and went 
 down to the church. I told them that our road was the only legitimate 
 line to the West, and was a good u air-line,” and all of that sort of thing. 
 So I sold them all tickets there in the church, and came back with my 
 pockets full of money to where the other agents were; and we had a 
 good deal of fuss in a friendly way over my beating them so nicely. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been to Indiana ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who has gone with them from here, asa rule?—A. This man Perry, 
 
 I believe, until the last two parties went. 
 
 Q. Do you know who were with them ?—A. I think they went in 
 charge of the conductor. There was nobody went with them from here. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 77 
 
 There were only eighteen in the first party and twenty-live in the sec¬ 
 ond. 
 
 Q. Where will you go when you leave here l —A. Eight back to Golds¬ 
 boro, unless somebody stops me. 
 
 Q. Are you going on this business?—A. Yes, sir, lam, unless the 
 other roads should reap the advantages by my absence and scoop them 
 
 in. 
 
 Q. You have made yourself very popular among them, have you not, 
 Mr. Dukehart?—A. Yes, sir ; lam looked upon by them as a sort of 
 Moses. They are like sheep down there. When one leads off they all go 
 over the same rail. In the first instance I got them by going to the 
 church and making this pathetic address to them. They think a great 
 deal of me on account of my securing this first party. 
 
 Q. You say they are like sheep, and that when one starts the balance 
 follow. Now, from your general knowledge of this subject, what do you 
 think of the future of this emigration movement ? Is it going to in* 
 crease or stand still ?—A. I think just as long as those people have money 
 or can get money to pay their fare they will keep going until they re¬ 
 ceive letters from those ahead telling them not to come, or some of them 
 are brought back to tell them the status of affairs out there. 
 
 Q. Then you believe it will not stop unless it is checked from the 
 other end of the line t —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose your road would not object to bringing them back if 
 they want to come?—A. No, sir; if they want to come I will go over 
 there to Indianapolis and do as much work to secure them as I did down 
 in North Carolina. I will sell them tickets either way. I will even go 
 down to the church and make another address to them. 
 
 Q. You have the only airline, I believe you said?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. How much of a line have you?—A. I do not know its full extent. 
 
 Q. There is a great deal of it, is there not, Mr. Dukehart ?—A. YY;s, 
 sir. 
 
 The chairman here called upon Mr. George S. Kooutz, one of the 
 agents of the -Baltimore and Ohio Gail road Company, to state the line 
 of railroad under the control of the Baltimore and Ohio Gailroad Com¬ 
 pany in the State of Indiana, which he did, and then presented to the 
 committee one of the railroad company’s circular maps. 
 
 Testimony of John G. Dukehart resumed. 
 
 The Witness. This is the regular map of the road, which shows the 
 only legitimate air line route from this point to Indiana. I never give 
 up the Baltimore and Ohio. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Through what counties does your line run in Indiana ! —A. I do 
 not know that I can give the counties. The map does not do so; but 
 it enters below Defiance and runs up to Seymour and Belle Union to 
 the Chicago Junction. 
 
 TESTIMONY OE SAYLES J. BOWEN. 
 
 Sayles J. Bowen sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I simply find your name, Mr. Bowen, as one of a board of audit of 
 this concern, the Emigrant Aid Society. A paper has been presented 
 here showing the disbursements of that society in furtherance of this cm- 
 
78 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 igration movement. I do not recollect the amount, but whether much 
 or not you can state whether it is your name that is signed to that 
 paper?—A. I never saw the paper until it was read here and knew 
 nothing of its existence. 
 
 Q. Do you mean by that to say that your name is there without your 
 authority ?—A. I mean to say that it is there without my knowledge or 
 authority any further than permitting my name to be used as a member 
 of the auditing committee. 
 
 Q. Have you acted in that capacity and allowed it to be used ?—A. 
 No, sir. There have been some accounts presented to me for passage- 
 money to Indianapolis for some of these emigrants. I have no recollec¬ 
 tion, however, of the particulars. 
 
 Q. When did you allow your name to be used?—A. I think it was 
 two or three months since. 
 
 Q. By whom ?—A. I think Mr. Wall and Mr. Adams came and asked 
 if I would allow my name to be used, and mentioning other parties who 
 had consented to act. 
 
 Q. And you consented ?—A. Yes, sir, after being told what were the 
 duties of the committee. 
 
 * Q. And you did not know until this paper was produced anything 
 in connection with the transactions of the society ?—A. No, sir ; I did 
 not. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the matter of this emigration except 
 what you have heard here ?—A. No, sir ; I merely acted on this paper, 
 and when I found the paper all right I put my name to it. I have had 
 no further business connected with this emigration movement. I have 
 been down in Tennessee most of the time. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. KOONTZ. 
 
 George S. Koontz sworn and examined. 
 
 The Witness. Mr. Chairman, 1 will say that I know nothing of the 
 location of these roads controlled by the Baltimore and Ohio Company, 
 except what I get from the maps. I know nothing of the geography of 
 that country. Our line enters Ohio in the county of DeKalb, extend¬ 
 ing through the northern part of the State into Lake, and into Moran • 
 thence into DeKalb, Noble, Kosciusko, Elkhart, Marshall, Porter, and 
 Lake. Those are the counties shown by Rand & McNally’s map. 
 
 Question. What other line of road does your company own or control 
 in Indiana?—Answer. I do not know of any other. I have no knowl¬ 
 edge on that subject. 
 
 Q. You have a road from here to Indianapolis ?—A. No, sir; not run¬ 
 ning into Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How t do you sell tickets there?—A. We sell them by other roads. 
 We sell tickets by the C. C. and A. and other roads. 
 
 Q. That arrangement you had running in January ?—A. This has 
 been the line running to Grafton and Parkersburg, and thence to Cin¬ 
 cinnati, and the Indianapolis Cincinnati and Lafayette Road running on 
 from there. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 J. P. DUKE FI ART recalled. 
 
 73 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Question. You spoke a while ago of the Wilmington and Weldon 
 Railroad Company flying the track in the matter of rates : do you know 
 the reason why they flew the track ?—Answer. No, sir. The first thing 
 they did was to sell tickets through to Washington, and the next party 
 that came along they would not sell them tickets, except to the end of 
 their line. 
 
 Q. So that they have not sold any to Kansas and Indianapolis from 
 there?—A. No, sir ; not since the first batch. 
 
 Q. What was the destination of the first batch ?—A. Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any efforts being made in Washington or else¬ 
 where to keep the railroad company from taking them to Indiana?—A. 
 No, sir ; I never heard of any. 
 
 Q. What political party do you belong to ?—A. I am a Democrat. 
 
 Q. To what party does Mr. Koontz belong?—A. I cannot speak for 
 him. 
 
 Mr. Koontz (interrupting). I will speak for myself; I am a Repub¬ 
 lican. 
 
 The Witness. I began by voting against Henry Clay. Mr. Cole, the 
 general agent, is also a Republican. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything political in this exodus movement, or is 
 it purely a business transaction ?—A. That was what it was with me. 
 
 Q. When did you first hear of this movement? What was the infor¬ 
 mation brought to you as to the character of it in that section of coun¬ 
 try? Was it simply that a large number was going, and that it would 
 be desirable to secure them ?—A. When I first went into La Grange I 
 had a talking with Ferry and Williams. It was necessary to learn the 
 number who were probably going, and they stated it at from fifteen to 
 twenty thousand. I laughed at them, and they said there was no use 
 in laughing, it was all right, and they were going. 
 
 Q. You stated, I believe, that 703 of them went?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Since that time?—A. Yes, sir ; from the 20th of November to this 
 time. 
 
 Q.. You said, I believe, that 235 of the 703 were half tickets. What 
 class of people did they represent?—A. Children between five and 
 twelve years of age. 
 
 Q. Then the whole number of adult tickets, deducting that amount 
 from the other, would be 428 ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What proportion of those would you say were women ?—A. I should 
 say a half; I am only speaking of them as I saw them in the train, and I 
 think half of them were women. 
 
 Q. Was there any considerable number between 12 and 20 years of 
 age?—A. No, sir, not many; when a man would go out and take his 
 family, he would come into the otfice and say to us, how much to In¬ 
 diana? I would tell him $1(3.GO a head, and ask him if he had any chil¬ 
 dren. I have had them to answer yes, I have got 0 head. That fellow 
 had the largest family I ever knew to go among them. Out ot that 
 family I think he had" three children who would come within the age 
 described by our tariff. 
 
 Q. Then there would be six who would come within the ages of 32 
 and 20?—A. Yes, sir. e 
 
80 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS IROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Cun you give any estimate of the number, out of 1204, who could 
 vote in Indiana next year ?—A. I could not tell you, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that is a sufficient number to create all this conster¬ 
 nation in the Democratic party in Indiana, and to alarm them as to the 
 Democratic status of that State ? 
 
 The Chairman. There is no consternation, Senator Windom, but a 
 deal of indignation. 
 
 The Witness. I could not tell the number who will vote. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Out of the 2GS you say half were women ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is unreasonable to say that there are 64 between 
 the ages of 12 and 20 2—A. I should say not; although I did not pay 
 any attention to them. 
 
 Q. Then if that would not be unreasonable that would leave 200 who 
 could vote ?—A. I never looked to see after them in that regard ; I 
 think, though, to assume that would not be unreasonable. 
 
 Q. That would leave 200 males over 20 years of age, or about that f — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF H. W. MENDENHALL. 
 
 H. W. Mendenhall sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Gil airman : 
 
 c/ 
 
 Question. Where is your residence f —Answer. Washington City. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided here ?—A. Three years. 
 
 Q. Where did you live before you came here ?—A. In Indiana. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts 2—A. The last four years I lived at Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Where did you live before then t —A. In Richmond. 
 
 Q. Bent County ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was your, business in Indianapolis ?—.V. Bart of the time 
 keeping books for a wholesale house, and part of the time I was in the 
 insurance business. 
 
 Q. What are you doing now ?—A. I am a clerk in the Treasury De¬ 
 partment. 
 
 Q. What department of it?—A. In the revenue marine department. 
 
 Q. In what grade ?—A. First class clerkship. 
 
 Q. At what pay ?—A. Twelve hundred dollars. 
 
 Q. I saw your name attached here as a member of the board of audit 
 —did you hear it read ?—A. I did not get in in time. 
 
 Q. it is a paper appealing to the people of the North for aid and sym¬ 
 pathy ?—A. l r es, sir. I am knowing of it. 
 
 Q. You were familiar with it before it was brought out here ! —A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you read it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you read any part of it ! —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who did 2—A. Mr. Adams. 
 
 Q. Did you see it before it was published ?—xV. No, sir j Air. Adams 
 told me about it and asked me to read it, and I said I was busy at the 
 time and did not do it. 
 
 Q. Did he ask you to put your name to it 2—A. As a member of the 
 committee ? 
 
 Q. Did he in any capacity l —A. I don’t remember whether it was 
 Adams or Wall that asked, and I replied that I did not care. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 81 
 
 Q Then you knew this paper was circulating with your name at¬ 
 tached to it for sometime past?—A. I knew it when he handed me one. 
 
 Q. It is dated November 15, 1879, at 934 P street?—A. It was dated 
 then but was not printed until the 1st of December. That is my im¬ 
 pression. 
 
 Q. Has the Emigrant Aid Society rooms at 934 F street ?—A. No, 
 sir; it had one then up stairs, but lias moved since. 
 
 Q. Where is it now ?—A. I don’t know. 
 
 Q, Did you go up to that room you had up there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who has the books and records of that society ?—A. 1 don’t know 
 anything about it. 
 
 Q. Did you know Mr. Fearing ?—A. Yes, sir. Mr. Adams some two 
 or three weeks ago concluded to go to Washington Territory and re¬ 
 signed as secretary and Mr. Fearing was appointed as secretary in his 
 place. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the books and papers of the society ?—A. No 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Never seen any of them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any letters ?—A. Yes, sir. 1 have seen two ; 
 Mr. Adams showed me two from Mr. Langsdale. 
 
 Q. The editor of the Greencastle Banner ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the writing about?—A. That he could provide employ¬ 
 ment for a large number of emigrants. 
 
 Q. Did he state the number?—A. lteally I don’t recollect, but he said 
 he had a large number of places for hands upon the farms. 
 
 Q. You are an Indianian yourself, and Greencastle is in Putnam 
 County, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is that county there settled up and supplied as to laborers? 
 —A. I was not there but once in my life, and I do not know anything 
 about the county. 
 
 •J 
 
 Q. You belong to the old Mendenhall family in Wayne, do you not? 
 —A. Y r es, sir; my father lived there. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of how it is furnished with labor ?—A. I 
 know nothing of its statistics at all. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Lmgsdale state anything as to other counties?—A. I 
 do not think he said anything, except that if the emigrants were here to 
 send them there. 
 
 Q. What do you know of an emigration aid society there at Green¬ 
 castle ?—A. Nothing, whatever. 
 
 Q. What at Indianapolis?—A. Nothing, except what I saw in the 
 Journal a week ago, that the colored people had a meeting to establish 
 an aid society and help the people coming there to that State. 
 
 Q. That was the colored people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know General Straight?—A. Yes, sir: but only by reputa¬ 
 
 tion. 
 
 Q. He has the reputation of being a white man, has he not ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; and has a very tine business, 1 believe. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Dudley—is he a white man ?—A. He is indeed 
 in a good many ways. 
 
 Q. And the editor of the Indianapolis Journal, Mr. Walker, boasts being 
 a white man, does he not ! —A. You speak of Air. Martindale, do you 
 not ? 
 
 Q. I speak of Mr. Walker, his writing man.—A. I do not know him. 
 
 Q. You do not know anything about their employing negroes on their 
 paper?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you take the Journal?—A. I do. 
 
 6 EX 
 
82 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Do you read it ?—A. Occasionally. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Mr. Langsdale’s paper?—A. Yes, sir; I have seen 
 two copies of it, I think. 
 
 Q. Mr. Langsdale is the postmaster at Greencastle ?—A. I do not 
 know that. 
 
 Q. He is a leading Republican, is he not?—A. Yes, sir; I should 
 judge so from his paper. 
 
 Q. And from the remarks he made?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How often did this society meet with which you were connected ?— 
 A. I do not know, sir, but I think four times I have been there. 
 
 Q. Be good enough to tell us what was transacted ?—A. I think 
 about a year ago, about the time of the first landing of emigrants in 
 Saint Louis, Mr. Adams came to me. I was in the Treasury at the 
 time, and he said he was going to have a meeting at his house to aid 
 the emigrants in Saint Louis, and asked me if I would meet with them, 
 and I said yes. I went there and met with nine or ten persons who 
 were there at the meeting. They were all strangers to me except Mr. 
 Wall and Mr. Adams, and Mr. Fearing, I think, was there too. 
 
 Q. Then the first meeting of your society was on the occasion of the 
 arrival of a large number of Southern negro emigrants at Saint Louis ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; that is the first meeting. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. (Jtey present at that meeting?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Otey?—A. No, sir; I didn’t know him until 
 after the meeting, when I learned his name. 
 
 Q. You know him now, don’t you?—A. Yes, sir; there was a gentle¬ 
 man here this morning that I took to be him. 
 
 Q. He was there at that meeting?—A. Yes, sir; he was there at that 
 meeting. 
 
 Q. When was the next meeting held ?—A. Really I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. AY here was the next meeting?—A. AYe were assembled at the same 
 place. 
 
 Q. Was that Adams’s house?—A. Yes, sir; at Adams’s house. 
 
 Q. About what time was this meeting held?—A. In point of date, I 
 think, about one year ago, and about one week or ten days after the 
 emigrants arrived in Saint Louis; it was in cold weather, I think. 
 
 Q. Y^ou met afterwards, about how long afterwards?—A. I cannot 
 tell. 
 
 Q. Can’t you approximate it ?—A. Well, sir, it was three or four weeks. 
 
 Q. When did you have your last meeting?—A. The last meeting was 
 some time in the latter part of the summer. 
 
 Q. Did you ever meet Otey more than once at one of these meetings? 
 —A. I think that was one only one he attended. 
 
 Q, You have been favorable to placingYhese people in Indiana?—A. 
 I have been in favor of putting them in every State we could. 
 
 Q. I did not ask you that; I said Indiana.—A. Yes, sir; I have been 
 in favor of sending them to Indiana if they could get employment there. 
 
 Q. You advocated that disposition of them?—A. Y r es, sir; in one 
 sense of the word, I did. 
 
 Q. You spoke in the meeting ?—A. I spoke that night. 
 
 Q. That was the first meeting, you say ?—A. Yes, sir; I do not know 
 that I spoke at that meeting about Indiana, but some one asked my 
 opinion of the matter, and I said that the matter was a new one to me, 
 but I thought there was going to be a very extensive number of people 
 who were going to leave the Southern States and take up their residence 
 in the North and West. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been in the South?—A. No, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 83 
 
 Q. And you knew nothing of the condition of the people there?—A. 
 No, sir ; except what is a part of the history of the country. 
 
 Q. That is, what you have read in the newspapers ?—A. I have read 
 something in the newspapers, and I generally read and believe what I 
 see in a newspaper, if it is a Republican newspaper. 
 
 Q. What kind of a newspaper did you read it in ?—A. I only take 
 the best papers. 
 
 Q. Do you read any Democratic paper l —A. I do not know that I do 
 particularly, but I have seen some things from the Southern Okalona 
 States. 
 
 Q. But you believe all that you read in a Republican paper?_A. 
 
 Yes, sir ; I think I would. 
 
 Q. Then you read something in these newspapers to the effect that 
 the negroes were in bad condition ?—A. l r es, sir; I think the report I 
 read was in a Republican paper. 
 
 Q. Didn't you state in your speech that the negroes would do better 
 by going to Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What inducement did you state would be held out to them in In¬ 
 diana?—A. None. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything on the subject ?—A. I had never seen or 
 heard at that time anything about people coming from the South to In¬ 
 diana. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything about it yourself in your speech ?—A. Yes, 
 sir, I did. 
 
 Q. What did you say ?—A. I will tell you exactly ; or rather give you 
 the substance, as I cannot tell the language precisely. I stated that 
 their persecution was as much as they could bear, and that if Indiana 
 could offer inducements to these people I felt like a great number of 
 them would go there: and I stick right there now. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you state in your speech that as these negroes were going 
 to emigrate you would like to have a large number of them come to In¬ 
 diana?—A. Yes, sir; I knew that a great number of them, if not all, 
 voted the Republican ticket, and I would like amazingly to see them 
 come there, just the same as you to see the Irish coming in there be¬ 
 cause they generally vote the Democratic ticket. 
 
 Q. A"ou were in favor of their going there to vote?—A. AYs, sir; I 
 was. 
 
 Q. Are you a Quaker?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And of anti-slavery antecedents ?—A. No, sir ; my father had two 
 or three brothers who owned slaves. 
 
 Q. A'our father emigrated to North Carolina, did he not ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you stated this thing in the meeting, and Otey was there; 
 have you talked with him since on that point ?—A. I do not know that 
 we have even met together, and certainly not talked over this matter. 
 
 Q. A r ou are a pretty strong Republican and somewhat of a politician ? 
 —A. No, sir ; I am not a politician. I have talked over this matter fre¬ 
 quently, but our society in no case has done anything to further the 
 matter. I stated my opinion simply, but no action was taken on it. 
 When I said this the society was not organized, but we were staying 
 talking the matter over. Mr. Wall was then elected president, and 31 r. 
 Adams secretary. 
 
 Q. You wish to be understood, then, that you expressed your inde¬ 
 pendent views?—A. Yes, sir; those views are mine. 
 
 Q, Have .you explained them to any of your friends in Indiana ?—A. 
 Not politically.. 
 
 Q. Will you answer the questions?—A. I have. 
 
84 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us who they were, unless they are covered by private 
 reasons?—A. They were private matters. I have bad nothing to say 
 about this emigrant matter in a particularly public way. 
 
 Q. Have you received letters about it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From what points ?—A, Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Have you received them from any other points ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If you have no reasons for not doing so, give the names of your 
 correspondents.—A. There is United States marshal Dudley and Doc¬ 
 tor—I think a colored man—Dr. Elbert. I just had one postal card 
 from him. 
 
 Q. What degree of approval do you understand this emigrant move¬ 
 ment is meeting with from those prominent men like Dudley?—A. I do 
 not know. I had no information from him on the subject. 
 
 Q. Well, what is your position on it, if you can tell it?—A. He told 
 me, and I am sorry I did not preserve his letter, that as a political 
 movement the Republican party of Indiana didn’t approve of it. 
 
 Q. Did he seem to think he would like to have them there to vote us 
 down ?—A. Yes, sir; I think he did. 
 
 Q. Then he disclaimed the act, but was willing to take the fruits?— 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is about it. 
 
 Q. Are those the only parties who have written to you from Indian¬ 
 apolis ?—A. They are the only ones I recollect. 
 
 Q. And if I understood you, Mr. Dudley, who is United States 
 marshal, while disclaiming it as an act of the Republican party, said 
 he would be glad to have them there as Republican voters?—A. No, 
 sir ; not exactly in that way. 
 
 Q. Define, then, what he said.—A. He said that if employment could 
 be got for them he would be glad to see them come into tfie States, but 
 the Republicans as a party could have nothing to do with it. 
 
 Q. I want you to answer the question directly whether United States 
 Marshal Dudley approved or disapproved of this emigration to Indiana? 
 —A. As I stated to you before, that is as near as [ can get at the sub¬ 
 stance of the letter; that is, that he disclaimed the movement for the 
 Republican party, but if employment could be gotten for them he would 
 be glad to have them there. Indiana has millions of acres of laud, and 
 I think her people would be glad to have them there. 
 
 Q. I thought you stated you were ignorant of the statistics of the 
 State ?—A. I know enough to know that. 
 
 Q. Where is any of that million of acres that the people of Indiana 
 would be glad to have these negroes settled on ?—A. There are some in 
 Stark County. 
 
 Q. Are you, as a member of this emigrant society, to send emigrants 
 to Stark County?—A. No, sir; not particularly to Stark County; I 
 sent one there. 
 
 Q. You are a member of the auditing committee of that concern ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you sent any of these people to Shelby County ?—A. No. 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you sent any to Marion ?—A. No, sir ; that is around Indian¬ 
 apolis; a good many have gone around there; there is a good deal of 
 wild lands about there. 
 
 Q. What good will it do a negro to get him a home around Indian¬ 
 apolis ?—A. Why, sir, I see farms myself there most of them cut up and 
 included into the city limits. 
 
 Q. You say there are millions ot acres of wild land in Indiana. Do- 
 you know any government lands that are not taken up there at $1.25 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 85 
 
 an acre t —A. No, sir ; and I do not mean wild lands altogether ; I mean 
 improved lands. 
 
 Q. Where do you know of any improved lands in Indiana that the 
 negroes can get?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Have you been in Northern Indiana?—A. Only to pass over it in 
 going to Chicago. 
 
 Q. Were you ever in Lake County?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Saint Joe?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Marshall?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Elkhart?—A. No, sir ; but I know that is a fine agricultural 
 region and well settled up. 
 
 Q. Who else have you known to have anything to do with this emi¬ 
 grant movement ?—A. I do not know of anybody specially. You appear 
 to make me out as though I was very active in this movement, which 
 is not the case. 
 
 Q. No, sir, I have no point to make on you. I think you have testi¬ 
 fied quite candidly. I want the facts, and I advise you in advance that 
 those who are supporting this emigration will have to answer for it 
 hereafter when these people get their eyes opened to the great iniquity 
 that has been practiced upon them ; I want to know the facts simply 
 and put them on record, and this committee is appointed to find out the 
 facts on this very important subject. 
 
 The Witness. You know the charge has been made publicly that it 
 was a political movement. It has been made by Governor Hendricks 
 in his speech and by others. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I know that. Now, then, tell me, Mr. Mendenhall, with whom you 
 have talked or with whom you have communicated regarding this move¬ 
 ment?—A. I have communicated with those whom I have mentioned. 
 I never communicated directly with Elbert, but he wrote tome; he 
 wrote me a postal card. 
 
 Q. Go on, now, and tell us all you know about this emigration ; who 
 started it, and what caused it.—A. Well, sir, about the first of October 
 [ was called out of my room at the Treasury and introduced to Mr. 
 Perry and Mr. Williams. That was the first time that I knew that any¬ 
 body was going from North Carolina to the West. They had with them 
 a paper containing one hundred and sixty names, most of whom were 
 heads of families who wanted to leave North Carolina and go somewhere 
 where they could be in a better condition. They had come here in ad¬ 
 vance to get some information as to railroads and fares, and were going 
 to wait here a week or ten days for money. Their idea then was, I 
 believe, to go to Kansas. I said to them, “ Gentlemen, there are a great 
 many colored people going to Kansas from Louisiana and Mississippi, 
 and my opinion is that some of‘them will suffer.' 7 I said, “There are 
 other States where you can get to much cheaper, and I believe fare bet¬ 
 ter. 77 I mentioned Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, all of which were nearer 
 to these people than Kansas, and that they could get there much cheaper, 
 and I thought fare better than they would do in Kansas where so many 
 had preceded them. They said they had thought of going nowhere else 
 than to Kansas, and that that was where their company had sent them. 
 They reported that they were reduced to starvation down there in the 
 South, and some of them were paid only forty and sixty cents a day for 
 their labor in store orders and all that. 
 
 Q. This was Perry and Williams who told you this ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much did they say they got a month ! —A. From four to six 
 
86 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 dollars a mouth. They said that was the best they could do, and as 
 they were starving they had determined to go where they could do bet¬ 
 ter if possible, and I suggested to them to go to Indiana. I said to them 
 that it was not out of their way, and while it may cost a little more to 
 stop there you may make money out of it. They said, after studying 
 over the matter, they thought they would do it, and I wrote to Judge 
 Martindale and asked if they could be furnished with employment if 
 they stopped there. I heard nothing from him, and these men were still 
 here a week or ten days after. Then I got a postal card signed by El¬ 
 bert, who stated that Judge Martindale had asked him to reply to me. 
 He simply said to tell these gentlemen to come to Indianapolis, and I 
 did so. 
 
 Q. Repeat the substance of what Elbert wrote to you.—A. lie said 
 that Judge Martindale had mentioned the matter to him and handed 
 him my letter, and asked him to reply to it; and he sent a postal card 
 telling me to send these two men to meet him in Indianapolis. They 
 went out there, and in a week or ten days returned. I was absent at 
 the time, but I learned that they had been to Indiana and been to 
 Greencastle. They said that they had seen Langsdale and spoke with 
 him, and that several farmers had come and talked to them, and said 
 they wanted farmers on their farms. These were all farmers, I believe, 
 who went to Indiana, and I was informed that in about, well, a few 
 days, they returned with about fifty emigrants. They went with them 
 to Indiana, and I understood they had got employment in the neighbor¬ 
 hood and around Greencastle. 
 
 Q. Then, that was the beginning of the tide that has struck Indi¬ 
 ana?—A. Yes, sir; it begun as I have stated. 
 
 Q. And you were the directing agent for the movement ?—A. It was 
 with me just as I have stated. 
 
 Q. How many men did Perry and Williams say they would deposit 
 in Indiana?—A. I do not recollect what they said. I have not seen 
 Williams, I do not think, since; certainly not since I came down to the 
 depot and saw these emigrants. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Judge Martindale ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see him?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him about these emigrants ?— 
 A. No, sir. I saw him just a little while in the Ebbitt House. I also 
 had a conversation with Mr. Cowgill. 
 
 Q. Have you had any conversation with any of the members of Con¬ 
 gress from Indiana this winter?—A. No, sir; I have had a conversation 
 with nobody but Dudley, I think. 
 
 Q. Did you see Dudley here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When ?—A. A few days ago. 
 
 Q. And had talk with him?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say he still wanted these darkies, and that he was still of 
 the opinion that the Republican party should take no interest in it ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; he was of the same opinion, that it should take no interest 
 in it except as the friends of the colored man; he thought that, as a 
 party, it should take no interest in the coming of these people except 
 as their friends to aid them when they got there. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. What did he say about the condition of those who were there ?— 
 A. He said they are suffering, and the citizens had raised money and 
 sent them on to Greencastle. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 87 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know the number of those who have gone to Greencastle ? 
 —A. No, sir; I know that is the place they strike first after leaving 
 Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there has been great suffering there among 
 them ?—A. Yes, sir ; I read that in the Journal. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know there has been a general appeal to the people to 
 help them?—A. Well, yes, sir. I am mistaken, though, about the Jour¬ 
 nal; it was in the Indianapolis Leader that I saw the statement of their 
 suffering. 
 
 Q. That is the colored people’s paper ?—A. Yes, sir; it was appealing 
 to take provisoes to them just as done here in Washington City. 
 
 Q. Have you only seen that one appeal?—A. That is the only one I 
 recollect. 
 
 Q. Have you conversed with any members of Congress this winter 
 about this emigration?—A. I conversed with one or two, and got such 
 poor encouragement from them that I quit. 
 
 Q. Whom did you converse with?—A. I conversed with Mr. Cowgill, 
 but he said he knew nothing about it, aud paid no attention to it. 
 
 Q. Didn’t he say he didn’t think it a good thing for the people, and 
 didn’t believe in it?—xV. Yb?s, sir; I heard him say that; but he said 
 he believed ten thousand industrious people could find employment 
 there if they got there, and could support themselves. 
 
 Q. Then he seemed in favor of their going ?—A. No, sir, I think not; 
 I have not seen him since the regular session commenced, however. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with General Brown ?—A. l"es, sir. 
 
 Q. What did the General think?—A. He had nothing to say on the 
 subject. 
 
 Q. He was non-committal, was he? He was not anxious for it, and 
 not particularly against it?—A. I think if he had been in favor of it 
 he would have said something. 
 
 Q. What did he say ?—A. He said it was a matter he had not thought 
 anything about. 
 
 Q. What number did he think could get employment there ?—xA. He 
 didn’t state. 
 
 Q. Are there any other members here that you have talked with ?—A. 
 No, sir ; not that I recollect. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Langsdale’s paper recently ?—A. I have seen copies 
 recently; that is, within two months. 
 
 Q. Did you see the articles he wrote as to the use that could be made 
 of these negroes as voters ?—A. No, sir ; I never saw anything of the 
 kind in those two papers; one of the papers was seut to the secretary 
 of the society that had the statement in it made by those colored people 
 as to how they were doing, and that they would never go back to North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. Ili your opinion, from your knowledge and observation of this 
 matter, and as a member of this emigration society, how many negroes 
 do you think should be transported from the South to that State in 
 order to change it from a Democratic to a Republican State ! —A. I have 
 no idea at all to express on that subject. I kuow there are immense 
 coal mines undeveloped in that State where these people might be em¬ 
 ployed at good prices and become good citizens. As to the demand lor 
 labor there 1 do not know whether it was satisfied or not. As to the 
 numbers needed in the event this were a political movement, that would 
 depend largely on circumstances. 
 
 Q. You have stated that with commendable frankness. Now, I want 
 
88 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to ask you how far this emigration ought to extend for the benefit of 
 the colored race and the white race both ?—A. I do not know, sir, that 
 any distinction ought to be made. If there is any colored man in the 
 South that does not like his place of residence he ought to go away 
 from it. 
 
 Q. Aud you think if ten thousand colored men want to go to the 
 North and the railroads will help them, there is no objection to it?—A. 
 Yes; I think there would be objections to that. There will always be 
 objections to people being put on the State as paupers. 
 
 Q. I mean is there any limit, in your opinion, where this emigration 
 ought to stop ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think there would be a limit in Indiana 
 just as soon as they would be deprived of work. If they cannot live 
 in the North they should go somewhere else ; if they cannot live in the 
 South they should seek a better home. If they have friends in the 
 South and are contented, thev should remain. 
 
 Q. But you think they cannot get their rights and protection in the 
 South ?—A. From what I have seen in the newspapers I should think 
 they could not. 
 
 Q. But those who have tried to better themselves are suffering and 
 have to be relieved by charity ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have heard nothing from them, have you, as to their doiug 
 well, except what you have seen from Perry and Williams?—A. No, 
 sir ; not them alone. 
 
 Q. Well, from any others?—A. No, sir; I think they told me some¬ 
 thing of it, and I read something in the newspapers. I think those who 
 have gone will write home the truth about their condition and try to 
 induce their u sisters and their cousins aud their aunts” to come out. 
 
 Q. You read those statements in the paper, you say. Was it the 
 Greencastle Banner?—A. Yes, sir; there were statements in there, 
 whether true or false I do not know, but one of them said he would not 
 go back to North Carolina for $500, and another one of them said that 
 he had employment, a good home, and a pig and a cabin. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. You never read anything in that paper on the otter side, did you ? 
 —A. No, sir; sometimes I pick up a Democratic paper and read some¬ 
 thing in there, but I do not waste money on them. I do not say that 
 all I read in a Republican paper is true; some things in the Republican 
 papers come from Democratic sources. I read something in a paper of 
 what the Wilmington Post had copied, in Elizabeth City. 
 
 Q. The Wilmington Post,-then, testified on the subject?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see a report of a woman named Maria Bryan, who was 
 begging her way back, and what she said ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou will never see it either, if you do not read the Democratic 
 newspapers.—A. I think I would read the paper, governor, if you pub¬ 
 lished it. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Are you the gentleman who was mentioned by Mr. O’Hara when 
 he stated that some one member of the society left it on account of the 
 political character which was sought to be given to this movement ?— 
 A. Mr. O’Hara said something about me, I believe. 
 
 Q. Had you aud Mr. Otey any conversation iu regard to this emigra¬ 
 tion movement and its political bearings?—A. I never spoke to him un¬ 
 til after the meeting of that night. 
 
 Senator Vance. I understood it was a speech that you made there. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 89 
 
 The Witness. No, sir; there were no speeches made; some one 
 asked my opinion, and I gave it. 
 
 Q. (By Senator Blair.) ,Was Mr. Otey connected with that society ?' 
 —A. No, sir ; he was there that night, but I never saw him any more, 
 and I understood he was opposed to the exodus all the time. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You stated that you got your information from newspaper reports 
 about the bad treatment of the colored race in the South. Have you 
 ever read any of the Congressional reports on that subject?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I have read considerable. I have also read some of the Teller 
 report. 
 
 Q. Did that assist you any in the way of information?—A. It con¬ 
 firmed what I knew and had heard before. 
 
 Q. You know there are a number of volumes of Congressional re¬ 
 ports upon that subject?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you corresponded with Martindale and Elbert on this 
 subject?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to Martindale about any political motive 
 you had in assisting these emigrants?—A. I think I wrote him as 
 short a note as possible, as I was in a hurry. I said that these men 
 were here and I thought Indiana was a better State for them to take 
 their people to than to Kansas,' and I asked him how they could get to 
 Indiana, provided they could get employment; I asked him what he 
 thought about it. 
 
 Q. And you say he never answered that note?—A. He paid no at¬ 
 tention to it. 
 
 Q. You heard from it afterwards, though ?—A. Yes, I heard from 
 Mr. Elbert; he said that Judge Martindale had given him my letter 
 and asked him to reply. 
 
 Q. You say that Mr. Dudley said he would like to see them come to 
 the State, but the Republican party could have nothing to do with it ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the expression of this personal feeling ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he meant to give you notice that the Republican party 
 would not participate in it ?—A. Yes, sir ; I so understood it. 
 
 Q. You spoke of the suffering of the colored people who had arrived 
 in Indiana; what do jou know about that?—A. 1 just say that I saw 
 the notice in the colored paper there at Indianapolis appealing for help 
 for these emigrants just as they did when they were here. 
 
 Q. That is to say, they had reached there without food or money ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; and they were asking help, asking the colored people, I 
 think, and calling upon their churches to take care of them. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any movement on the part of active Republicans 
 to colonize these negroes for political purposes?—A. No, sir; I never 
 heard of any. 
 
 On motion, committee adjourned to Monday, 10.30 o’clock a.m., Jan¬ 
 uary 20, 1880. 
 
 FIFTH DAY. 
 
 Washinton, Monday , January 20—10.30 a. m. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to its orderof adjournment and renewed 
 the taking of testimony. Present—the chairman and all members ol 
 the committee. 
 
90 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 The taking of testimony was resumed, as follows : 
 
 LETTERS TO EMIGRANT AID SOOETY. 
 
 O. S. B. Wall appeared and presented to the committee from the 
 files of the National Emigrant Aid Society, as per previous order of the 
 chairman, the following letters and correspondence : 
 
 I. 
 
 Dear Sir I would like some information in regard to obtaining a colored man to 
 work for me. I want a young single man not under 20 or over 35 years A good 
 Horseman or groom active industrious & honest 
 Please give me what light you can aud amount of wages expected 
 I enclose Stamp. 
 
 Resp’t 
 
 C. J. PHILLIPS 
 
 II. 
 
 Sugar Grove Penna 
 
 Allegeny Co. Ceres X. Y. Jan 5th 1880 
 
 Joshua L. Bailey Esq. 
 
 Dear Sir : I saw your name in N. Y. Weekly Witness in connection with the“ South¬ 
 ern Exodus ” helpers I wish to know if we can get four or dve good colored women 
 for general housework. I want one and some of my neighbors want one each 
 Would give them good homes at good wages in steady places could arrange to pay 
 their fare here Want none but honest and steady ones. Will you be so kind as to 
 inform me if you can help us in the matter. 
 
 I think I could find good families who would take fifty or more for female help in 
 the line of general housework is scarce & unreliable here They appear to be anxious 
 to get away from the South and here is a good place for a large number. There are 
 a good many colored people around here but they are independent have homes of 
 their own & do not work out much. If you do not know of any such help & can 
 give me the address of some one who does please do so. Hoping to hear from you 
 soon I remain 
 
 Yours truly 
 
 J. P. BROTHE M. D. 
 
 III. 
 
 August 1 1877. 
 
 • 
 
 We the People of the Sesson Cong, jist nr hav a Strong desier to Emagrant to Ivasas 
 Land where we can hav a home. Reason & why 
 
 1 We hav not our rights in law 
 
 2. Labors the old formare masters do not alow us any thing for our labor only in or¬ 
 ders an the orders are Shave from 10 cts to 20 or 25 cts on the dollar 
 
 3 We hav, not our Right in the Election We are defrauded by our formar masters 
 
 4 We have not no rug to make a honnis an homble living 
 
 5 thire is no use for the )Col( to go to law after thire Right not on out of 50 Git his 
 Rights. 
 
 6. the KuCluck Rainges in the own ways an Rules. 
 
 7. We want to Git to aland Where we can Vote an it not be a Crime to the )Col.( 
 Voters. 
 
 8 Wages is very low wages is from $5 to G 0 and $8 for men 
 
 9. Woman Wages is from $1.00 to $2 aud $3. the hist is $4. 
 
 10. An near all of the labors hav lamilys to tak cear of an many orther things we 
 could mention, but by the help of God we intent to mak a efferd to mak our start to 
 Kansas land We had Rather Sufer an befree. than to sufer an be intangele by such 
 eufamious degrades that are Brought upon us 
 
 11. Wags per day is 25 cts an 30 cts a day an your Boad found. 
 
 12. Wags per day 45 cts to 50 an GO cts per day an we Boad our Selfs 
 
 13. one Grate Reason why we want to get away so Soon we do not want our Census 
 
 taken no more in n. c. but in Kausas or in Som orther Places Where we will do as well 
 
 The Emagrants Reason 
 
 REV S. HEATH 
 
 (chur Cham 
 MOSES HEATH 
 
 (Sect 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Delagaie 
 
 91 
 
 Rev A W Heath man of lion an Good Morial. 
 
 Aug ltli 1879 at Kmstore 
 
 Cim Lencor Co. N. C. 
 
 an if any man wants to hear from A. W. Heath he will answer for him selfe bv the 
 help of God. 
 
 IV. 
 
 Capt. O. S. B. Wall 
 
 Indianapolis Dec the 1 1879 
 
 Dare Sier I arived safteand finde the meny friendes of the Collard Emmergrantes 
 at worke trying to provide for them they heave all got Homes that are heare and 
 wall settesfide thay tel me that wood Not gon back to N. C. for the State Mr wall 
 I wrate Home for sum Money to Coum to wasington in your care please to lock oute 
 for it. I am very sherte I think I will bee in wasing in a few days the Committy 
 meates heare to night to tak actieu in the good Coyes thay say theare not going to 
 bil a fence a Ronnde this State to Cape the Coleud people frurn Coming 
 I am as everes yours Respec’t truley 
 
 C A SCOTT 
 
 V. 
 
 Indianapolis Dec 14 1879 
 
 Mr O. S. B Wall 
 
 Deare Sier I heave met a greate meny friendes sens I arive heare I heave bin 
 in Cuunty a lange waves and meate with suckses I will bee in the Citty D. C. in a 
 few dayes please luck oute for my Male that will Coum in your care I heave so 
 mutch to tel you when I coum thane an a taking good Care of those Emmergrantes 
 that Coum the uther day 
 
 Yours truley 
 
 C A SCOTT. 
 
 VI. 
 
 Egbert U P. R R. Jan. loth, 1880. 
 
 Mr O. S. B Wall 
 
 Washington D. C. 
 
 Dear Sir: My wife wrote you not long since making inquiry for a colored servant, 
 Sc in your reply of Dec. 27th your remark that while you have men Sc women that 
 wish homes in the west, you have not a dollar in your Treasurary to send any am. You 
 also suggest that we advance their fare A retain it from their wages. We want two 
 girls or middle aged women, What can they be sent to cheyenne for, Can they be 
 sent C. O. D. I suppose you have arrangements with R. R. companies which you can 
 get reduced rates We have no acquaintance in Washington Sc would prefer to pay 
 their fare if it can be done In the meantime I will see if there are more servants 
 wanted in the neighborhood An early reply is desired 
 Very Respectful Iv 
 
 A. MARTIN 
 
 VII. 
 
 Findlay, Ohio, Jan. 6th 1880. 
 
 Freedmans Eileaf Association Washington D. C. 
 
 Please let me know the proper steps to be taken, in regard to employing Exodusts 
 Emigrating to Our Western States, what they can be hierd per month Sec. We want 
 good farm hands both male Sc female Please let me know immediately 
 
 ALEXANDER MORRISON 
 
 Address Findlay Hancock Co. Ohio. 
 
 VIII. 
 
 Washington D. C., Dec., 13///, 1879. 
 
 O. S. B Wall Esq. 
 
 My Dear Sir Can I have the pleasure of an interview with you on Monday morn¬ 
 ing, please advise me and oblige 
 Yours Truly 
 
 D. W. JANOWITZ 
 
 Passr. Agl. B <$ ■ P Depot. 
 
92 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 IX. 
 
 Empire City Kansas Dec. 30 th 1879. 
 
 Dear Sir I have just come from Arkansas where I have been travelling the past 
 two years and have had an opportunity to see and learn the condition of affairs in 
 that State. I can assure the real State of the colored race cannot be described on 
 paper, the oppression and intimidation & deception practiced upon them in every 
 conceivable way that unscrupulous men can invent. I can give many instances time 
 and place if necessary 
 Yours Truly 
 
 A C KETCHMAN 
 Late Editor South Eastern Desoh 3Io, 
 
 X. 
 
 Terre HauteInd. 
 
 Mr. Adams Esq. 
 
 See Emigrant aid Society Washington D. C. 
 
 Dear Sir. I am Informed that you are Directly Interested In furnishing To Emi¬ 
 grants all Facts necessary to enable them to Select Future homes Which will Prove to 
 them Both Satisfaction and Profitable. In this connection therefore I Desier to Place 
 before yon Some of the advantages offered by the State of Indiana and to do so Would 
 Properly Requier to much Space of a Simple Letter I can therefore Present only a 
 few of the main advantages, and add that I think no other State in the union offers 
 Greater or Better opportunities to Industrus Persous Seeking an Honst Livelihood then 
 this State We are Blessed with coal Land that cannot be Excelled by any which Is 
 known as the Block coal our miners Get from 90 cts. to one Dollar Per Ton and good 
 miners can make from $2.50 to $4,00 Per day and there Is a greater Demand for coal 
 then the miners are able to Supply within the last few days I have had applica¬ 
 tions for at Least 500 mines and at one mine alone 200 men can Get Work and whether 
 they have had any experiance or not if they are willing to work they can soon learn 
 all that Is Required again there never was Such a Demand for Farm Hands Farm¬ 
 ing is all the go In this State as we have Some of the Finest Lands In the World 
 Farmers do not confin themselves to Raising any one thing the Cheaf Products are 
 Wheat Corn oats Rye Barley and vegetables of all kinds as for Rasing Stock of all 
 kinds never was Better and a great Deal of this Land can be Bought on Long and Easy 
 Terms or can be gotten at on the Shers and Farm hands Get from $15 to $20 Per 
 month and Board I will Repeat it again there never was such a Demand for farm 
 Hands and Laborers of all Clases and I will again Repeat it that Indiana offers as 
 good Inducements to colored emigrants from the South as any State In the union. 
 
 Agan I will say that there is no State In the Union that has a better School System 
 than Indiana -we have a Sinking fund of $7,000,000 for School purpos and the Col¬ 
 ored People are treated the Same as the whites In these Schools for want of Time I 
 will close I am yours as Ever. 
 
 J. FT. WALKER. 
 
 Terre Haute Ind Xov 10—79 
 
 If I only had a little aid I would Do Lots of good I am going to Saint Louis Mo 
 which Is 105 miles from here and make arrangements there to Get Reefugees to come 
 this way but this is a private matter ^ 
 
 W. 
 
 XI. 
 
 Terre Haute Ind. Jan 5 1880 
 
 i 
 
 Catt Wall My Dear Sir I am Directed to write you concerning the colored Refu¬ 
 gees Leaving Washington for Indiana I was Directed by Mr Perry to write you 
 now what I want Is this the First Time you have any of those People on hand and 
 wanting to come to this State Please Send me about 15 Families I have Places for 
 them as Soon as they can Get here and if Such Should be the case Telagraph me 
 at my Expense What day they will leave Washington for Terre Haute Please oblige 
 yours &c 
 
 J. H. WALKER 
 
 Terre Haute Ind. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 93 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W. G. FEARRING. 
 W. G. Fearring sworn and examined. 
 
 Bv the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. Temporarily here in the 
 city. 
 
 Q. Where did you formerly reside ?—A. In North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What part of North Carolina?—A. In the eastern part, at Eliza¬ 
 beth. I was raised there. 
 
 Q. You are a native of that part of the State?—A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since you left there to take up your residence here ?— 
 A. In December, 1877. 
 
 Q. AVhat is your occupation at present ?—A. I am a laborer in the 
 Treasury Department. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the Treasury ?—A. Since July 14,1875. 
 
 Q. Y"ou may state whether you are secretary of the Emigrant Aid So¬ 
 ciety of this city.—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. You succeeded Mr. Adams ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since you were appointed secretary ?—A. I was appoint¬ 
 ed the 29th of last month. 
 
 Q. What records have you of the acts and doings of that society?— 
 A. I have some of the letters and minutes of the meetings. 
 
 Q. Did you bring the records with you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You brought none of the letters with you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were the letters from principally?—A. Some were from 
 North Carolina, some from Indiana, some from New York. 
 
 Q. Could you bring them here at the next meeting of this committee ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the records of the society ?—A. You mean the minutes of the 
 last meetings ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. Yes, sir ; lean. 
 
 Q. I wish you would do so. What interest have you taken in the 
 emigration movement that caused you to be secretary of the society ; 
 have you actively engaged it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what way?—A. In getting up funds to help my brethren to 
 get away from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You solicit funds for that purpose ?—A. Not personally. 
 
 Q. How do you do it?—A. I helped to raise them by a concert and 
 in other ways. A committee of 17 were appointed to get up a concert 
 and we realized a handsome sum by that. 
 
 Q. That was when these people were stuck here in the city ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had occasion to raise any more since that ?—A. No, sir ; 
 not directly for emigrants. We also got up a lecture for the benefit of 
 the colored fund. 
 
 Q. Do you keep yourself posted as to the number who pass through 
 here?—A. No, sir; for there are a good many who pass that I don't 
 know anything about. 
 
 Q. You don’t know anything about it until you hear of it?—A. Yes, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 You are in the Treasury Department, you say ?—A. Ye 
 What State are you from ?—A. North Carolina, 
 
 What part of it ?—A. Eastern part of it. 
 
 sir. 
 
94 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with other parts of the State ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your age?—A. l am 27 years old. 
 
 Q. You are engaged in x>romotiug the exodus, and you think, of course, 
 it is a worthy cause; what are your reasons for so thinking ?—A. Well, 
 sir, I think as the people are about to move from the South to the North 
 •to better their condition, it is to our advantage to help them along. 
 
 Q. I want to know wherein it is, if at all, to their advantage to move 
 from the South?—A. They seem to think they can better their condi¬ 
 tion, and which I think they can do. 
 
 Q. Give your reasons for so thinking.—A. One is the school facilities 
 which they will have in the North. In some counties in North Carolina 
 they have only two months’ school in the year. The proportion of school 
 fund is about $50 for some of the counties, and the teachers are com¬ 
 pelled to have $25 a month, and that makes only two months in the year. 
 Another reason is that the farm wages are too low. They get from 30 
 to 50 cents a day and board, and GO and 70 cents when they board them¬ 
 selves ; servants in families canuot get more than $2 and $3 a mouth. 
 Of course they have the right to vote, but to a certain extent they are 
 counted out of that. 
 
 Q. How do you understand it is in the localities where these people 
 go?—A. Do you mean Indiana? 
 
 Q. I mean any place. What is the condition there as to schools ?— . 
 A. I think they have school all the year around, except in the summer 
 months, when there is a vacation. 
 
 Q. How is it as to wages l —A. Wages are better. 
 
 Q. How much better?—A. A farm hand in North Carolina, I think, 
 gets $6 and $7 a mouth; and I understand from these people who have 
 gone that they can get $15 and $20. 
 
 Q. Do you say you learned, that from people who have gone there, or 
 from those who are inducing them to go?—A. I have received letters 
 from parties who have gone there. 
 
 Q. You say you have received letters from parties who have gone out 
 there, and who are getting that?—A. Well, I take back the statement 
 as to the letters. I have not received any of that kind, but I get it from 
 statements that I saw in the newspapers. 
 
 Q. What kind of papers?—A. The Greencastle Banner and Indian¬ 
 apolis Leader, copied in the Wilmington Post, in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Are the Greencastle Banner and Indianapolis Leader both edited 
 by colored men ?—A. No, sir ; one is edited by a white man and one by 
 a colored man. I have also read statements in the Cincinnati Com¬ 
 mercial to the same effect. 
 
 Q. Who controls that?—A. White men control it. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. I wish to ask you whether your knowledge of the status of your 
 people in North Carolina is obtained from personal contact with them 
 or from your observation at home, or from parties here in Washing¬ 
 ton ?—A. It is from parties at home, friends of mine asking me to look 
 out for them. I say that their condition there is so low that they can 
 do nothing for themselves. 
 
 Q. Is there any prospect of any immediate improvement in wages or 
 the school facilities there in North Carolina?—A. I hardly think there 
 is. 
 
 Q. How has it been there during this period of reconstruction sioce 
 the war as to wages?—A. Up to 1867 or 18G8 farm hands got from $1 
 to $1.25 a day, but that was under a Kepublican administration. Since 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 95 
 
 then they have been going down, and now they are 30 and 40 cents a 
 day. 
 
 Q. How is it as to schools ?—A. We had schools six to eight months 
 in the year there. 
 
 Q. And that you say was during the period of a Republican adminis¬ 
 tration ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How has it been since the Republicans lost control ?—A. In some 
 counties we have schools for two months and in some four. In some of 
 the counties where there are towns there are six mouths school. 
 
 Q. You spoke of the manner of voting. How is it as to the exercise 
 of the franchise since the war ? How has that privilege been accorded 
 to your people in practice ?—A. We have got the right to vote, I believe, 
 especially in the second Congressional district, where the vote does not 
 seem to do ns much good. 
 
 Q. How is that. ?—A. Because, with an 8,000 Republican majority, 
 we have a Democratic member representing us in the House. 
 
 Q. But if I understand you, you do not complain of any actual vio¬ 
 lence practiced upon your people in North Carolina; how is that?—A. 
 Well, sir, in my section of country they attempted to organize a band 
 of ku-klux, and the leader of it came down into my county and weut out 
 to organize his band, and we told them that we were quiet and peace¬ 
 able, and we wanted them to attend to their own business, and we would 
 attend to ours; and we said, if they organized the ku-klux, that the 
 first colored man or white Republican who was murdered in that section 
 we would burn down the town in revenge. That rather scared them 
 off, and we have had no trouble there since. 
 
 Q. And you prevented the organization of the ku-klux by that 
 threat ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the ku-klux was not established in your section ?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 • Q. How is it in other parts of the State?—A. The colored people vote 
 pretty freely, I believe, since 1869 and 1871. 
 
 Q. How Lias the franchise been exercised by your people since then? 
 —A. Generally pretty freely in most parts of the State, but not in all. 
 
 Q. Where is it different ?—A. Up in the western part of the State. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the colored population live in that part of the 
 State ?—A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Now, donotyou think, Mr. Fearing, that consideringall the resources 
 of North Carolina, her climate, and the fact that your people have lived 
 there ever since the first settlement of the country, that it will be better 
 for them to stay there, and hope for an amelioration of their condition 
 through their own efforts and the friendship of the whites, rather than 
 seek homes further to the north and west, where they are unknown, and 
 the friendship for them is mostly of a sentimental character ?—A. I do 
 not, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think they have made sufficiently strenuous efforts tore- 
 move these prejudices, so that they are justified in incurring the dan¬ 
 gers and the hardships of emigration ?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Are they not acting hastily in your opinion ?—A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Is there not a great deal of false information circulated among 
 them to stimulate this movement?—A. I have not heard of any. 
 
 Q. Do you not know, or have you not heard, of any false reports cir¬ 
 culated among them to stimulate a desire to emigrate?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has your society or have you personally any information from 
 these men as to their condition now in Indiana?—A. I have heard from 
 some of them. 
 
96 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Will you give us the substance of their reports ?—A. They say 
 they are getting along splendidly, and never had such a good time in 
 their lives; and oue man said that he would not go back to North Car¬ 
 olina for $500. 
 
 Q. What is his condition now, do you know ?—A He is living with a 
 gentleman out there, and doing well. 
 
 Q. In what capacity?—A. As a farm hand. 
 
 Q. Ho you know what wages he is getting ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many men are situated out there with the farm¬ 
 ers?—A. Most all of them, I believe. 
 
 l Q. This man who would uot go back for $500, is he a man of family ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has a wife and child ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How long has it been since you lived in North Carolina ?—A. 
 Since November, 1870. 
 
 Q. How long since you have been back there ?—A. I was back there 
 in the late Presidential election. 
 
 Q. You were down there then?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are in government employ ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you go home to vote ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you go before the last Presidential election ?—A. I 
 think thirty days. 
 
 Q. And you have not been back since that time?—A. No, sir. I have 
 been back since then, but uot home ; but I have been in Warrentou, my 
 wife’s home. 
 
 Q. How long did you remain ?—A. About two weeks. 
 
 Q. How much time did you spend in Indiana?—A. I never was in 
 the State. 
 
 Q. Never in the State at all ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know nothing of the State ?—A. No, sir ; except what I read. 
 
 Q. Have you read her laws on the subject of public schools?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of her landlord and tenant act ?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You know nothing about it whatever?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say you know of no false reports made to these emigrants 
 in order to make them go to Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that they were told that they could get $1.50 a day ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What wages did you hear it stated they could get?—A. Twelve 
 dollars to $15 a month. 
 
 Q. Twelve dollars to $15 a month and their board?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you see that?—A. I saw it in the Greencastle Banner, 
 copied into the Wilmington Post, in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see these reports in other papers except those you 
 have mentioned?—A. No, sir; except in this National Republican here 
 in Washington. 
 
 Q. What representations did the National Republican make?—A. 
 They copied those articles from the Greencastle Banner. 
 
 Q. Did you hear it represented that they could get from $2 to $2.50 a 
 day as coal-miners ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never heard that?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, You say that this man in Indiana said he would not go back to 
 North Carolina for $500? What is his name?—A. I do not know, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 07 
 
 Q. Do you know where he lives ?■—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q* I>0 yon know what post-office he wrote from ?—A. I never saw the 
 letter ; I only saw the statement in print. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is living now?—A. I think somewhere near 
 Greencastle, in Putnam County. 
 
 Q. Was his name signed to the statement ?—A. Yes, sir: his name 
 was signed to it as his statement. 
 
 Q. But you do not remember the name ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Windom. I have a statement here in the paper which seems 
 to have been made by a professor of mathematics in Indiana. 
 
 The Chairman. In what institution? 
 
 Senator Windom. I do not remember. 
 
 The Chairman. This happens to be the portion of a letter from Pro¬ 
 fessor McNutt, who was a white man when I saw him last. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You said you did not see the letter, and did not see the man who 
 wrote it ? 
 
 The Witness. No, sir. It was marked under the head of “Colored 
 emigrants.” 
 
 Q. So is this letter in the paper this morniug.—A. Well, sir, that let¬ 
 ter I take to be the letter of a white man. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Is that the letter you alluded to?—A. No, sir; I never saw that 
 before this morning. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. Will you not state to the committee what you want to say about 
 this colored man?—A. Well, sir, there was a statement published in 
 the Greencastle Banner in connection with others coming from colored 
 emigrants, that one of Them said he would not go back to North Caro¬ 
 lina for $500, and the statement I refer to was under the head of “Col¬ 
 ored emigrants.” 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. That letter in the Republican this morning is under the same 
 head ?—A. Yes, sir; but that is the letter of a white man, and is not 
 the one I refer to. 
 
 Senator Windom (passing a paper to the witness). Do you remember 
 whether that report of that meeting which is marked there is the one 
 that you saw ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The substance of the statements published in the Greencastle Ban¬ 
 ner is there ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Windom. I will read this statement (reading): 
 
 LIFE IN INDIANA—HOW THE COLORED IMMIGRANTS ARE FARING. 
 
 Cincinnati, December 29. 
 
 A meeting of negro immigrants from North Carolina was called for Saturday night 
 in the court-house 7n Greencastle, Indiana. The purpose of the meeting was to com¬ 
 pare experience and interchange views as to the propriety of encouraging the move¬ 
 ment. The Democratic sheriff, however, closed the doors of the court-house against 
 the colored men, and the meeting was not held. Pains were taken, however, by news¬ 
 paper correspondents to gather from the colored men who have arrived since the move¬ 
 ment began a number of statements of their personal experience. Greencastle is the 
 home of P Mr. Langsdale, who guaranteed homes and employment to all who would 
 come, and the greater number of the now arrivals have naturally located in that vicin¬ 
 ity. Of a dozen or more intelligent negroes all express themselves as greatly pleased 
 
 7 EX 
 
98 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 at the change they had made. Said Willis Stating “ I have a good plastered house to 
 live in, with live rooms. Me and my family have plenty to eat, and we never had spell 
 good times in our lives. I would not go back to North Carolina for $500. I get sixty 
 cents a cord for cutting wood, and cut from a cord to a cord and a half a day, besides 
 doing other work. My wife worked for one of the neighbors yesterday and got seventh- 
 five cents in silver for it. I have already had more things given me since 1 came here 
 than I had lost in leaving North Carolina. My family is better satisfied than they 
 ever were before in their lives. I never met as good white friends in my life. I have 
 three children, and they will start lor school on Monday. I want all my people in the 
 South to leave there and come here. They can do so much better here, and be free¬ 
 men. 77 . _ # 
 
 A dozen others interviewed, without exception, talked in the samestrain. About one 
 hundred and fifty men, women, and children have so far settled in Putnam County. 
 One thing that pleases them is receiving pay for their work in money instead of store 
 orders, as they did in North Carolina. Republicans say that plenty of work is still to 
 be had on the farms in that part of the State. Three men, who wantonly destroyed 
 clothes of immigrants arriving in Greencastle on Wednesday, were convicted yester¬ 
 day and fined, and one of them went to jail. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen this statement ?—A. Yes, sir; I think I have 
 read the substance of it. 
 
 Q. Well, have you ever seen this statement of James A. Stokes in 
 regard to his condition and experiences in Indiana"?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 read that letter in the same newspaper. 
 
 Q. Did that help you to make up your mind as to how these people 
 were getting on in that country?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you read the letter of Colonel Streight as to why he was help¬ 
 ing those people and taking care of them? —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was another evidence to your mind as to their condition ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Windom. I will read this letter of Stokes (reading): 
 
 [From the Greencastle (Ind.) Banner, January 8, 1880.] 
 
 MORE EXODUS TESTIMONY. 
 
 Lagowa, (Ind.), January 5, 1880. 
 
 George J. Langsdale, Esq., 
 
 Editor of the Greencastle Banner : 
 
 Dear Sir: I read with delight your interviews with various colored men, published 
 in your issue of January 1, and desire to add my testimony to controvert the false¬ 
 hoods that are being constantly published in Democratic newspapers. 
 
 I left Rocky Mount, North Carolina, on the 15th of December last to come to In¬ 
 diana, having been told that I could do better here than there. I had thought of going 
 somewhere to better my condition more than eight years ago, but did not know just 
 where to go. I could only get from five to seven dollars per month for labor, and was 
 paid in orders at the store, and had to pay from ten to fifteen per cent, above the regu¬ 
 lar prices for goods and groceries, because, as was said, the orders were “ time orders’ 7 — 
 that is, not payable for some months, they being paid in the fall and spring. 
 
 By living with the most stringent economy, on the plainest fare, and working all 
 the time, I could hardly keep out of debt. Nearly all of the colored people find them¬ 
 selves involved in debt from year to year, and are not in condition to come away, 
 though they greatly desire to do so; and they are not treated with that respect which 
 they know is due to them, but are constantly compelled to submit to insolence and 
 insult, besides being robbed of the just reward of their labor. 
 
 There the colored people are not allowed to enjoy their political rights as citizens. 
 Three Democrats and two Republicans constitute the judges of election at each vot- 
 ing place, and the two Republicans are usually incompetent, uneducated colored men, 
 who are appointed and forced to serve, though entirely ignorant of their duties and 
 unwilling to act. The three Democrats control and govern the election and compel 
 the two Republicans to do as they are bid. These are among the reasons that induced 
 me to leave North Carolina. 
 
 The colored people having heard of Kansas and the lands there, and the chance to 
 get homes for ourselves and families, sent two agents to viewtliat country and to make 
 a true report. They came to Indianapolis, and there learned that we could do very 
 well here, and reported that fact to us. At once large numbers of us determined to 
 leave that inhospitable country and seek homos in a land where we could enjoy those 
 rights which are justly ours. 1 paid my own and my wife’s fare, all the way, which 
 was thirty-two dollars, and came right on to Greencastle. I came direct from Green- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 99 
 
 castle to Ladoga, and am working for Mr. James H. Harrison, to whom I was cited by 
 Rev. J. H. Clay, of your city, who very kindly directed me where to go, as I was a 
 stranger in a strange land. 
 
 Mr. Harrison pays me twelve dollars per month and board, for one year, and provides 
 myself and wife a good comfortably furnished room at his house. "He also pays Mr. 
 Rayford Statin, a brother of Mr. Willis Statin, whose interview I read .in your paper, 
 the same wages, and treats us with great kindness, like men, and not like dogs, as it 
 was in North Carolina. 
 
 Both myself and Mr. Statin are perfectly satisfied, as are our wives, and I am quite 
 sure that this is the place that I wanted to find more than eight years ago, where I 
 can get a fair return for my labor. 
 
 I believe truly that this country is the right one for the thousands of colored people, 
 living in darkness and under intolerable oppression in the South, to come to, and I 
 denounce the contrary position, as taken and declared by the Hon. Fred. Douglass. I 
 sincerely thank you for the very great interest you so kindly manifest in tlnTwelfare 
 of my benighted race, and bid you God-speed in your good work. 
 
 Yours, most sincerely, 
 
 JAMES A. STOKES. 
 
 Senator Windom. Here is another letter which I desire to read in 
 evidence, from General Streight (reading) : 
 
 STREIGHTENED UP—AN EXPLANATION THAT HITS THE BULL’S-EYE AT EVERY SHOT—A 
 
 LETTER THAT DOES HONOR TO ITS AUTHOR AND STRIKES HOME FOR THE OPPRESSED. 
 
 [Logansport Journal.] 
 
 The following letter clearly and sufficiently explains itself: 
 
 Hon. CiijfRLES Kahls: 
 
 My Esteemed Friend: You have my'thanks for sending the Pharos of the 18tli 
 instant. It is surprising to see how a very ordinary transaction in our private busi¬ 
 ness affairs can be construed by blind political partisans into a matter of great public 
 concern. The truth is that I sent two colored men and their families, consisting of 
 some twelve women aud children, from this city to my farm in Newton County, where 
 I am needing some farm laborers. These people had just arrived here from North 
 Carolina. These are the.people referred to by the editor of the Pharos when he says: 
 “Tell it to the laboring white men of. Indianapolis that Colonel Streight is stocking 
 his farm in Newton County with North Carolina negroes.’ 7 Certainly, tell it to men 
 of Indianapolis, both white aud black, that I sent these people to work on my farm. 
 Why not tell them? I have frequently advertised for farm laborers to go to my New¬ 
 ton County farm, and have sent numbers of them there, gave them remunerative em¬ 
 ployment, and I still want more, and, so far as I know, there are no idle farm hands 
 in Newton County. Yes, tell it to the people that I sent two colored men, with their 
 families, to my Newton County farm ; and I will add that they are poor and destitute, 
 but I believe honest and industrious. 
 
 Now, friend lvahlo, while I am writing I will add that I have a very kindly feeling 
 for these poor, destitute, persecuted people, who are endeavoring to escape from a con¬ 
 dition worse than slavery. It will soon be sixteen years (in February next) siuce I 
 was making my way from the same country. That class of people that are now per¬ 
 secuting the colored people was then called rebels j and those rebels had orders from 
 the commander of the prison from which I had escaped to capture me, but not to bring 
 me back. My life was at stake, but human endurance has a limit even when life is at 
 stake, and this limit was reached when I was on the south bank of the Rappahannock 
 River, near Tappahannock, after a terrible day of crossing difficult streams, marching 
 and hiding from the enemy. My feet were sore ; I was worn out for want of sleep and 
 starving for want of food. Escape seemed impossible. On the north was the Rap¬ 
 pahannock River (near three miles wide), on the east was a deep impassable creek, on 
 the west was another stream of water too wide and deep to cross without a boat, and 
 on the south side the rebels had established a strong picket line. It was known by 
 the rebels that I was somewhere within the space of country above described, which 
 was not more than two miles wide and three or four miles long. A cavalry regiment, 
 together with the people, both black and white, with their dogs, had turned out to 
 hunt all day for my place of concealment. It seems almost providential that I was 
 able to elude their vigilance through that terrible day. But darkness put an end to 
 the search and I was left to consider the situation. I p to this time my policy had 
 been to avoid trusting anybody, and to endeavor to get through the country undis¬ 
 covered. This must now be changed, for I was in great need oi immediate fiiendly 
 assistance, aud as I had no confidence in the white men ol that section of the countiy, 
 the black men were my only choice. I started in the dark, through a drenching lain, 
 and soon found the negro quarters of a plantation, and on entering one ot the cabins 
 I was welcomed bv a good, honest Lniou man, aud a triend, though a slave, who had 
 
100 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 V 
 
 been ont all day with bis mast’er hunting for me. This man, at the risk of his life, 
 took me into liis cabin, procured and cooked a bountiful supply of food, and permitted 
 me to rest while lie joined his master the next day in a vigorous hunt for my place of 
 concealment. Night came again, and the negroes returned to tell of what had been 
 done, and of the fact that a certain boat, by chance, might be captured, which would 
 enable me to cross the Rappahannock, and thus escape from my pursuers. The negroes 
 of this plantation, at the risk of their lives, joined me in capturing the boat, and piloted 
 me through a difficult stream to the river, and returned to their houses to join in the 
 search for my whereabouts on the morrow. By their assistance I made my way out of 
 the reach of the enemy, and my life was spared. 
 
 The colored people now heeingfrom southern persecution are trying to escape from the 
 same evil spirit that plunged our country into war; that starved and tortured to death 
 over thirty thousand Union soldiers; that hunted escaping prisoners of war with blood¬ 
 hounds; that since the close of the war has murdered tens of thousands of men and 
 women for entertaining political opinions favorable to the Union ; that has organized 
 rille clubs and ku-klux bands to whip, scourge, and murder Union people. I say that 
 it is from this evil spirit that these poor people are trying to escape, and it was from 
 the same demon that I made my escape ; and now, remembering the fact, if any man 
 supposes that I have no sympathy for the refugees he is not acquainted with my dis¬ 
 position, for I do not intend to be guilty of ingratitude. 
 
 Hoping that the time will soon come when our National Government will protect the 
 constitutional rights of our citizens throughout the length and breadth of the land, 
 
 I remain, most truly, yours, 
 
 A. D. STREIGHT. 
 
 The Chairman (to the witness). Do you know who General Streight 
 
 is? % 
 
 A. Ro, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose, Senator Windom, you will allow it to ap¬ 
 pear as admitted that he was a Republican and a member of the State 
 senate of Indiana ? 
 
 Senator Windom. O, yes; and I also desire that this article in the 
 Republican of this morning shall appear as a part of the record (read¬ 
 ing) : 
 
 COLORED EMIGRANTS IN INDIANA. 
 
 Washington, D. C January 24, 1880. 
 
 To the Editor of the National Republican : 
 
 ►Sir: The following of a letter to a gentleman of Washington from Rev. Patterson 
 McNutt, A. M., professor of mathematics in Asbury University, at Greeneastle, Ind., 
 will no doubt be read with interest by those who so generously contributed money, 
 food, and clothing for the benefit of the colored emigrants from North Carolina to In¬ 
 diana. 
 
 L. 
 
 “Yours containing an article from the Alexandria Gazette on ‘ The North Carolina 
 negroes in Indiana/ is received. In reply I will say I know nothing, nor can I find 
 out from others anything in regard to the case referred to of the woman who, when 
 arriving in Indianapolis, was stationed in a church packed with emigrants of her own 
 color from her own section, and for three weeks received only one meal a day, and that 
 a poor one, and who says that the * emigrants were treated like dogs / but from what 
 I do know personally of the treatment shown to emigrants to Putnam County, and 
 from what Reliable colored persons and others who assisted in providing for the emi¬ 
 grants at Indianapolis have told me, I can but think that the story of that woman 
 must have been invented for other purposes than the good of the emigrant freed men. 
 
 “ Before receiving your letter I had been aiding, as far as I was able, in looking up 
 homes for those unfortunate people. Since receiving yours I have taken pains to in¬ 
 quire of several of the emigrants in regard to their treatment since coming, as also 
 how they are pleased with their change, and, so far, I have not found a solitary oue 
 who complains of his treatment, or who is dissatisfied with his new surroundings. On 
 the other hand I find them, without exception, enthusiastic over their new homes and 
 prospects. I will mention one example, from which you can judge all. I took the 
 daughter of one of these North Caroliuans to do the work in my family, and after a 
 few days the father and mother came around to advise her, and, in conversation with 
 £hese parents, I asked: ‘How do you like Indiana, and how do the people treat you V 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES, 
 
 101 
 
 They replied, ‘ We could not he hired to go hack to Carolina; would not go hack for 
 $500. The people here, though strangers, already treat us better than the Carolinians 
 did, with whom we had spent all of our lives.’ 
 
 “The class of negroes who have come to Putnam County seem to he honest, industri¬ 
 ous, and anxious to find employment, and I rejoice to say that, so far, all who have 
 come have found homes an<^employment, and yet the demand for farm laborers and 
 house servants is not fully supplied. 
 
 “ I think the cry that these people have been influenced to come here for political 
 purposes is a base slander. My judgment is that the ‘exodus’is controlled by a 
 power greater aud safer than that of politicians, and I only fear that a curse will come 
 upon our government for not aiding the helpless freedmen to homes.” 
 
 TESTIMONY OF CHARLES N. OTEY. 
 
 Charles N. Otey (colored) sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Otey ?—Answer. 2121 Twelfth 
 street, N. W. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in Washington ?—A. I have been here 
 about eleven years. 
 
 Q. Where did you come from when you came here ?—A. I came from 
 Oberlin, Ohio. 
 
 Q. How long had you been in Oberlin ?—A. Two years and a half. 
 
 Q. Were you educated at Oberlin ?■—A. I entered the freshman class. 
 I was three months in it at Oberlin. 
 
 Q. Where were you born?—A. Raleigh, North Carolina. I lived there 
 until I was sixteen years old. 
 
 Q. You went from there to Oberlin ?—A. Yes, sir; I went from there 
 to Oberlin, and I came from Oberlin in November, 18G9, to the Howard 
 University. 
 
 Q. Were you a teacher in the Howard University ?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 taught awhile, educating myself the whole time I was in college. 
 
 Q. Are you a graduate of Howard University ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what class?—A. The class of 1873, and the law class of lS7f>. 
 
 Q. Are you a member of the bar in this District?—A. Y^es, sir; 1 am 
 a member, but I am not practicing. 
 
 Q. What are you doing now ?—A. I am teaching and editing a news¬ 
 paper. I am teaching near the Howard University, one or two squares 
 from the boundary line, in a public county school, called the Howard 
 high school. I am also editing the Argus, which was established last 
 September. 
 
 Q. Is it a weekly paper?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. To what interest is your paper devoted?—A. The interest of the 
 colored people. 
 
 Q. You are editing a paper which is advocating the interests of the 
 colored race?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. That is your own race, I take it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou are a native of Raleigh, North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 lived there 1G years, and I have been visiting there every year since— 
 spending my vacations there almost every year, with one or two excep¬ 
 tions. 
 
 Q. Were you back there last year?—A. No, sir; but I was there in 
 January—this present month. 
 
 Q. But you go there pretty much every year ? 
 
 I might say. Home years I may not go ; but 1 
 
 -A. Well, every year, 
 go twice a year, gene- 
 
I 
 
 102 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 rally—Christmas sometimes, and holiday vacation; and I might say 
 that I go every year. 
 
 Q. Being an editor and a teacher, will yon please state to the com¬ 
 mittee whether you have made something of a study the condition of 
 your people in North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been visiting in different portions of the State ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. When there in the summer I have gone over some sections of the 
 State, and particularly over this same section from which this exodus 
 takes place. 
 
 Q. Now, in your own way, I wish you would describe the general con¬ 
 dition of the laboring people in that part of the State, black and white, 
 and point out what distinctions, if any, are made between your people and 
 the white people.—A. Well, sir, I last night wrote out the notes of what 
 I wanted to respond when called before this committee. I will therefore 
 give you my statement from my own notes. I was one of the six or 
 eight who first formed the national emigrant aid society. At the first 
 meeting I was elected vice-president, and myself alone drew up the con¬ 
 stitution. The object of the society, as I understood it, was to give aid 
 to those who were fleeing from oppression. 
 
 Saint Louis was overcrowded with emigrants from the Southern States, 
 and appeals had been made to all lovers of humanity. The object of the 
 society was commendable, viz, to do all in its power to raise funds, 
 either by the personal efforts of its members or by lectures and sub¬ 
 scriptions. All the money collected was to be forwarded to those who 
 were fleeing from the persecution of Southern task-masters. 
 
 So far as I know, no member of the society appeared to hold any other 
 view until Mr. Mendenhall, at the second or perhaps the first meeting, 
 made a speech in which lie suggested the advisability of diverting the 
 emigrants from Kansas, which seemed to be the objective point of all of 
 them, and in his speech said that it would be a good thing to send about 
 five thousand into Indiana as that was a doubtful State in the coming 
 election. No one at the time objected to this suggestion save myself. 
 
 Now, while no man lives who is more devoted to the principles of the 
 Republican party than myself, yet I was compelled to object to this use 
 of my people. 
 
 I felt that we had been used long enough as tools. I knew that the 
 former use of us had not redounded to our advantage. In the South, as 
 one man, we had voted the Republican ticket, and our reward was buck¬ 
 shot from the ku-klux and no projection from the national government. 
 We had placed Mr. Hayes in the White House, and as soon as he took 
 his seat he withdrew from us all the protection we ever had. Hence I 
 was opposed to the longer use of my people by any political party, and 
 as soon as I saw that the exodus was to be used politically I withdrew 
 from the society. 
 
 There were others in the society who afterwards expressed the same 
 sentiments that I entertained, but they remained in the organization. 
 
 Captain Wall, Messrs. Holland and Adams told me repeatedly that 
 there was no political significance in the movement, and two of them 
 urged me to attend the meetings, but I refused. 
 
 I was willing with money, voice, and pen to aid the oppressed, but I 
 could not sanction the movement to send men to States for political pur¬ 
 poses. In Kansas they might acquire homesteads; in Indiana and Ohio 
 they could not. To the first-named State they had received an invita¬ 
 tion, but to the two last named they had not been invited. 
 
 Of course all men have a right in this country to go where they please, 
 and when men know or think that they can better their condition by 
 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 103 
 
 changing their places of residence it is their duty so to do. I am not and 
 never was opposed to colored emigration, but 1 am bitterly opposed to 
 the wholesale delusion which has been practiced upon my people. When 
 the exodus from North Carolina began I was astonished, and being a na¬ 
 tive of the State and the editor of a colored newspaper I immediately 
 wrote to the most prominent colored men in the State asking them to 
 give to me the cause of this sudden uprising. I could not understand 
 it. I was more than astonished ; I was bewildered. I received answer 
 from all of them that there was no cause for it; that the more ignorant 
 class had been deluded by three men, named Perry, Williams, and Tay¬ 
 lor, who by some means unknown to them had been North and returned 
 with such glowing news that the people could not resist them. An in¬ 
 vestigation followed, and it was ascertained that these three men had 
 been among the most ignorant class of the country people and had told 
 them fhat the United States Government wanted them to go to Indiana ; 
 that the government would give them money to begin with ; that they 
 would receive $1.50 per day during the winter, and from $2.00 to $2.50 
 per day during the spring, summer, and fall. 
 
 Some who hesitated were told that they would receive new suits of 
 clothes at Washington. These men registered the names of those who 
 consented to go, and charged them from twenty-five cents to two dollars, 
 according to their ability to pay. These men called meetings in the coun¬ 
 try churches, and, with closed doors, so the press in the eastern part of 
 North Carolina informs us, bound those whom they had deluded to se¬ 
 crecy. 
 
 Of course the first batch went, having sold all their worldly goods. 
 Being few in number they were well received and found immediate em¬ 
 ployment in some place designated by parties unknown to the deponent. 
 
 These wrote back, to their friends and advised them to come, and hence 
 it is easy to understand the great exodus in North Carolina. 
 
 I have met Perry and charged him with everything I have stated, and 
 he did not deny a word of it. He only said in extenuation that the 
 money charged for registering their names was for the purpose of pay¬ 
 ing his expenses to Indiana and back. 
 
 Now, it is true that many who have gone, left because of dissatisfac¬ 
 tion. The landlord and tenant act works greatly to their detriment, as it 
 does to poor white men, so I am informed. I have not investigated that 
 subject. 
 
 They are also dissatisfied with that section of the new constitution 
 which takes from them the privilege or right of voting for their county 
 magistrates, county commissioners, and school trustees. 
 
 But so far as injustice in the courts is concerned they have no rea¬ 
 sonable complaint. The colored solicitor in the district from which these 
 people are emigrating told me not more than three weeks ago that 
 neither the judges, the officers of the court or juries, made any distinc¬ 
 tion on account of color. 
 
 It was my pleasure to deliver the oration at the celebration of the 
 seventeenth anniversary of the emancipation of my race, at Baleigh, on 
 the 1st of January instant. 
 
 In that city I met people from all parts of the State. I talked freely 
 with them in regard to the exodus, and all of them were bitterly opposed 
 to it. Those to whom I talked were not office-holders dependent upon 
 the support of the colored vote—for you must know that only white Pe- 
 publicaus hold office in North Carolina—there may be here and there a 
 spittoon-cleaner or a messenger, but nothing more, and yet they with 
 one accord opposed this exodus. 
 
104 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 James IT. Harris, the most prominent colored man in the State, a man 
 who only one year ago went into every nook and corner of the counties 
 from which these people are fleeiug, told me that there was not a parti¬ 
 cle of necessity for this exodus. 
 
 Osborne Hunter, jr., the editor of the Journal of Industry, who orig¬ 
 inated the idea of a colored State fair, and who made it a success une¬ 
 qualed by any State fair in the South, told me that lie traveled over 
 every road and by-path in that section, and he saw no occasion for it. 
 
 Hon. James E. O’Hara, who has testified before this committee, and 
 who lives in the section from which these people come, told me in North 
 Carolina that it was a shame. AY. Y. Turner, who, as editor of the 
 North Carolina Republican, had been almost everywhere in.that sec¬ 
 tion, in the interest of his paper, told me that though he had lived in 
 many sections of this country he had never seen poor people doing 
 better.' 
 
 Governor Holden, Richard Badger, Col. Ike Young, all prominent 
 radical Republicans, say that the colored people have no such complaint 
 as would induce a reasonable person to leave his home. 
 
 I might mention a dozen prominent colored Republicans, none of 
 them office-holders, such as Hon. George Price, Colonel Wassom, who 
 has lived for years in AYayue County, a county from which so many 
 have gone, Hon. John S. Leary, Hon. George Mabson, and his brother 
 AYilliam, of Edgecourt, and others too numerous to mention, who are bit¬ 
 terly opposed to this exodus. In fact, every intelligent colored and 
 white man in the State is opposed to it. Our six colored newspapers 
 are all fighting it. Every week’s issue of these papers contains lead¬ 
 ing editorials on the subject, and 1 have not failed weekly to say what I 
 thought on the subject. 
 
 AVitli malice toward none but with charity for all, I say that the exodus 
 from North Carolina is a fraud. 
 
 From some of the Southern States the exodus may be a blessing, but 
 from the Old North State it is a curse. In saying this we have not in 
 mind those intelligent men who think or know that they can better their 
 condition. To such men we would say God speed you and bless you ; 
 but that is not the class which is leaving the State ; it is that ignorant 
 class which, after it is used, will ask for bread and be given a stone, beg 
 for a fish and receive a scorpion. 
 
 t I lived in the West for two years and a half, and I never saw in Raleigh, 
 N. C., such a poor, ignorant class of colored people as I saw in Oberlin, 
 Ohio, the paradise of colored people. There were many rich colored 
 men there; there were colored men doing good business, but the poor 
 people were poorer than any I ever saw in any town in North Carolina. 
 Now, this was in their heaven. My God ! what will they do in Indiana, 
 which up to within a few years had a law on her statute books that a 
 negro could not live in the State! 
 
 In AJrginia, if a colored man marries a white woman, both are incar¬ 
 cerated in the penitentiary. 
 
 In Indiana, if the same deplorable event takes place, not only the 
 couple but the officiating minister also suffers. 
 
 Now, I am opposed to the exodus from North Carolina, for the reason 
 that there is no occasion for it. 
 
 Nine-tenths of those who have gone west could give no reason for 
 their going, and one-tenth said that they left because they were cheated 
 in their contracts. Is there any assurance that they will not be cheated 
 in Indiana? 
 
 In North Carolina the most kindly relations exist between the white 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 105 
 
 and colored people. At the last celebration of the day of the Emanci¬ 
 pation Proclamation, the whites, all of whom had owned slaves, paid 
 three fourths of the expenses necessary for making it a success. They 
 not only did this in Raleigh, but in other places where the day was cele¬ 
 brated. 
 
 The colored people as a mass are more intelligent than in any 
 other State in the South. They always had more opportunities for ac¬ 
 quiring an education. There are at least live schools in the State where 
 they can get a scholastic education, and almost every town has a graded 
 school. 
 
 They have what no other State in the South possesses—an asylum 
 for the deaf, dumb and blind. A Democratic legislature has appropri¬ 
 ated money for the erection of an insane asylum ; at present the colored 
 insane are in the white asylum, than which there is no liner in this 
 country. 
 
 The free schools are open for all, and colored teachers are always 
 employed in preference to whites. 
 
 There are numbers of colored lawyers who have made a name at the 
 bar; doctors who have successful practice; farmers who own their 
 farms and carry their own cotton to market. Why, Raleigh, a city of 
 about 13,000 inhabitants, half whose population is colored, has grown 
 within the past live years to such extent that I could scarcely recognize 
 my native city. There are more colored people who own their own 
 houses than there are in the city of Washington. Their beautiful cot¬ 
 tages are to be seen everywhere. 
 
 As I beheld this sight I said to myself, why does not the emigration 
 begin at Washington"? 
 
 in one word I sav that the cause of the exodus from North Carolina 
 can be found in the purses of the men who furnished Perry and Will¬ 
 iams with the means. 
 
 In my opinion, the time will come when those who have encouraged 
 this movement will repent iu'sackcloth and ashes. 
 
 In my humble judgment, in December, 1S80, many colored men who 
 are now feasting on the lamb in Indiana will be begging for money to 
 pay their way back to old North Carolina. 
 
 And in connection with that, Mr. Chairman, I have two papers which 
 have been sent to me, and from which I desire to read some. These are 
 questions which were asked by the editor of the People’s Advocate. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. What paper is that you read from ?—A. The Journal of Industry, 
 published in Raleigh. It is a paper published by colored people ; and 
 now this is what the editor of the People’s Advocate published here 
 and said in his paper : 
 
 [Journal of Industry, Raleigh, January 17, 1830.] 
 
 THE EXODUS. 
 
 The People’s Advocate says : 
 
 “ Notwithstanding the protests made in the United States Senate and by some of the 
 press of this city and North Carolina, one hundred and seventeen colored emigrants 
 from Goldsborough, N. C., passed through here Tuesday, en route to Indianapolis.’ It is a 
 great pity that ‘ these shiftless people ’ are thus ‘ duped to leave their homes for the inhos¬ 
 pitable West.’ Just wait until the proposed conference of colored men takes place ; 
 then it will stop; won’t it, Brother Hunter ! ” 
 
 To this 
 
 Mr. Hunter, the editor of the Journal, 
 
 who has traveled over 
 
106 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 every section of that country in the interest of his paper, as Mr. O’Hara 
 knows, replies as follows : 
 
 In reply to our confrere’s interrogatory, we will state, that so far as the ability 
 of “ the proposed conference ” to stay the tide of emigration is concerned, we know 
 nothing. 
 
 Having frankly answered his question, we respectfully ask of him a reply to the fol¬ 
 lowing, he being an advocate of the movement, and is, or should be, thoroughly ac¬ 
 quainted with all the facts connected with it: If any of our mechanics desire to emi¬ 
 grate to Indiana they can find plenty of employment on the same building or in the 
 same workshop with white men, as they can do here ; can’t they, Brother Cromwell ? 
 Or if any of our farmers desire to go, they can become “ monarch of all they survey” 
 on as easy terms as they can and do here ? Or if any of our teachers desire to go, they 
 can find as many schools to teach and as good salaries, ranging from twenty to 
 one hundred dollars per month, as they can and do here? Or if any of our lawyers 
 desire to go, they can find plenty of clients, as they can and do here ? Or if any of our 
 doctors desire to go they can find as lucrative a practice as they can and do here? 
 And last, but not least, if any of our politicians desire to go, they can find their way to 
 the legislature and halls of Congress as easily as they can and do here ? If the colored 
 people are once convinced that these things can be done as easily in Indiana as they 
 can and are being done here they will emigrate en masse; but if the movement is to 
 be narrowed down to the idea that “ I take the turkey and you take the buzzard, or 
 you take the buzzard and I take the turkey,” it will continue to meet the opposition of 
 the more intelligent colored people; “won’t it, Brother” Cromwell? 
 
 In the same connection, I read a portion of a speech delivered by 
 James II. Harris, the editor of the North Carolina Republican, prefacing 
 it by saying that there is a good deal in this which i do not agree with, 
 but in the main points, as they relate to this exodus, I agree with him 
 fully: 
 
 IION. JAMES II. HARRIS OX THE EXODUS. 
 
 The conference of colored men held in this city last week sat in extra session on 
 Thursday evening to consider the exodus movement. After the meeting was called to 
 order, Col. George T. Wassom arose and moved that the chairman, Hon. James H. 
 Harris, be invited to address the conference on the grave and momentous subject 
 ■which they had met to discuss, and in relation to which it was highly necessary to 
 take wise and timely action. The motion was seconed, and prevailed. Mr. Harris 
 was then brought forward, though somewhat reluctlantly on his part, and proceeded to 
 deliver a powerful and convincing speech in opposition to the emigration of the colored 
 people from North Carolina at this time, and particularly under the auspices of those 
 who are controlling the present exodus movement. He did not, he said, wish to be 
 personal in his allusions, nor would he be, further than was necessary in order to expose 
 the dishonesty and wickedness at the bottom of this whole exodus business. There 
 are in and about Washington City a class of colored men w ho may be very appropri¬ 
 ately described as political deadbeats and paupers. Those men are the self-styled 
 and self-appointed leaders of their race, and with unblushing effrontery assume it 
 as their peculiar prerogative to represent the colored people of the whole South. 
 These are the unprincipled impostors who, with lies on their tongues and base decep¬ 
 tion in their hearts, beguiled Senator Windom into offering a bill in the Senate to set 
 apart a definite portion of national territory for the colonization of the Southern ne¬ 
 groes. Then they went forward and organized a colonization society, and scoured 
 the North, through their agents, to collect money, professedly for the purpose of aiding 
 the poor, unfortunate negro to escape from the intolerable oppression of his Southern 
 home. The money raised for this philanthropic object, however, reached their own 
 pockets and stuck there. Professors Greener, Green, and one Wall, with their coadju¬ 
 tors iu Washington, are the original promoters of the exodus movement, and on them 
 our righteous indignation and censure should be unsparingly poured. Through their 
 machinations and misrepresentations the seeds of restlessness and discontent have been 
 sowed among our people, and the exodus is the fruit. These self-constituted negro 
 leaders, knowing as little about the real condition of the colored masses as a Hindoo 
 know T s of the social status of Europe, have from the first ignored the representative 
 colored men of the South, and acted with a contemptuous disregard of their views and 
 opinions. They apparently take it for granted that w r e are all an ignorant and credu¬ 
 lous set of fools together, and can be herded and tolled like a drove of cattle whenever 
 they, in their superior wisdom, shall deem us lit instruments to serve their individual 
 ends and interests. Like the debauched libertine and traitor, Cataline, they have gone 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 107 
 
 systematically to work, and plotted against their race and the good of their country 
 by seeking to entice from this Southern portion of the United States its colored popu¬ 
 lation, merely to replenish their depleted purses, and to gain a doubtful prominence 
 before the public. We spurn these men with their impudent and insultiug pretensions. 
 We denounce them as the enemies of their people, and warn colored men throughout 
 the South against their baseness and falsehoods. We want no intermeddling from such 
 a source in their affairs. We are competent to take care of ourselves. Whenever our 
 condition shall become so hard as to be intolerable ; whenever we shall become per¬ 
 suaded of the inexpediency and impossibility of our remaining longer among the 
 Southern whites as free and recognized citizens, we will judge and act for ourselves, 
 and take charge of our own exodus. We say to Professors Greener, Green, Wall, and 
 to all others engaged in the nefarious work of deluding the negro by misrepresenta¬ 
 tion and falsehood—stop ; hands off; let us alone. We indignantly resent your imper- 
 tient interference in our affairs, and ask that you will allow us to manage for ourselves 
 in our own way. You do not represent us, you have no constituency, you have nothing 
 but impudence, cheek, and cunning, and an inordinate greed for filthy lucre, for which 
 you would wickedly mislead and basely sell us into the hands of the Philistines. But we 
 will none of you. It is war to the knife between you and us, and we will not sheath 
 our blade until we have forced you down and out from the position which you hav.e 
 usurped, and to which you have not the shadow of a claim, and until we have exposed 
 you to your race and to the country as the conspirators and swindlers that you are. 
 
 We readily concede the right of the colored people or of any people to migrate at any 
 time from one portion of the United States to another. This is a free country, and the privi¬ 
 lege of locomotion from and to any point within the bounds of the Republic may be exer¬ 
 cised by our citizens at their option. We are opposed to the exodus from this State, not 
 that any colored man in North Carolina has not the sole and exclusive right to decide for 
 himself in all matters concerning his welfare, to select his own home and settle in any 
 tquarter of this broad laud, but we oppose it, we earnestly advise against it, because 
 nhose who have become imbued with the spirit of emigration are deluded. They know 
 ot what they do. They are acting upon a sudden impulse created by lying and 
 coundrelly agents, who have been, and are now, among them. It cannot be denied 
 that we have grievances here in North Carolina, the best of the Southern States, which 
 justify no little discontent and serious complaint. 
 
 The people have been arbitrarily deprived in part of their sovereignty. An un¬ 
 scrupulous party, in order to entrench itself the more securely in power, has, through 
 its legislature, enacted odious laws and followed a line of policy destructive of our 
 long-established and cherished forms of popular government. Our county commis¬ 
 sioners, our magistrates, and school committeemen are no longer elective by the peo¬ 
 ple, and whatever may be the choice of the latter, they are not permitted to select and 
 vote for those whom they would have represent and serve them in these several capaci¬ 
 ties. These are wrongs which ought not to be borne by a free and liberty-loving peo¬ 
 ple; nor will we bear them. Yet, we will not llee the State to escape these wrongs. 
 We will remain here and have them redressed. The honest and patriotic sentiment of 
 the State, irrespective of race, is opposed to the outrages of the Democratic party, and 
 there is a strong, determined, and confident spirit abroad among us which will make 
 itself felt at the ballot-box, and which promises our deliverance from Democratic rule 
 and tyranny. While it is very natural that the colored people in the eastern counties, who 
 have until recently chosen all their local officers, should chafe under the changed con¬ 
 dition of things, it is one of the wildest and most impolitic schemes for them to 
 abandon their homes and emigrate en masse to Indiana as their temple ot refuge. 
 
 Said the speaker: “I know something of Indiana. I lived there two years. I have 
 traveled from one end of the State to the other, and I am prepared to say, in all candor 
 and sincerity, that scarcely a comparison can be made between Indiana and North 
 Carolina that is not in favor of the latter. Our climate is more genial and health¬ 
 ful. Our soil can be made equally as fertile, and is adapted to a far greater variety ot 
 products; while land, which in Indiana is $60 per acre and upwards, here in North 
 Carolina is $5 per acre and upwards; in everyway as desirable, and in some respects 
 more so. Wages may be higher there than here, but in the same proportion the cost ot 
 liviug is higher. In that State of higher latitude the winters are rigorous, and from 
 four to six months in duration, during which time labor is generally unemployed in 
 the rural sections, and wages are at a minimum. Here in North Carolina we enjoy, as 
 it were, perpetual summer; employment can be obtained the year round, and no one 
 need suffer for the necessities of life. Who can hesitate in choosing between these tv o 
 States, and unalterably deciding in favor of his own upon learning that there are 
 more beggars in two cities of Indiana—Indianapolis and Terre Haute than can be 
 found in the whole State of North Carolina ? 
 
 “The colored people are far more prosperous here than they are or are likely to be¬ 
 come there. Here they are better treated, experience greater kindness at the hands 
 of the whites, enjoy more impartial educational facilities, and, which is more than can 
 be claimed for Indiana or any* other State, have charitable institutions foi the un- 
 
108 
 
 NEGRO EXOlJUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 fortunate of their race, established and supported on an equal footing with similar in¬ 
 stitutions for the whites. In the face of t hese facts, to which others too numerous to 
 mention might be added, what intelligent colored North Carolinian can longer con¬ 
 template joining the ill-advised and pernicious exodus movement ? What the people 
 need is information, and that information the plain and unvarnished truth. They are 
 being imposed upon and misled. It. is the imperative duty of prominent and repre¬ 
 sentative colored men everywhere through the State to post themselves thoroughly 
 by reading, by correspondence, and reflection, and seek by argument, exhortation, and 
 entreaty to stay the impetuous tide of emigration, which threatens misfortune, suffer¬ 
 ing, and ruin to the hundreds whom it is sweeping along, almost weekly, in its fatal 
 course.” 
 
 Mr. Harris’s speech was very elaborate, and the above is only a synopsis. It was 
 well received, and created great enthusiasm. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. What conference was this which Mr. Harris refers to ?—A. The 
 conference held in North Carolina, in Raleigh, on the 15th of this 
 month. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. For what purpope ?—A. To consider this exodus. 
 
 Q. You say you approve of some of the things stated by Mr. Harris, 
 and some you do not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You approve of all that he says about the condition of the colored 
 people and the folly of the exodus'?—A. Yes, sir; 1 approve of this. 
 There are a good many things in here that 1 do not approve of, but 
 they are things like this, for instance, that he refers to Captain Wall, 
 that I do not approve of. 
 
 Q. Do you approve of what he says in regard to the loss of their 
 right of suffrage under the Democratic party ?—A. Yes, sir ; I approve 
 of that, with reference to that particular point, the election of magis¬ 
 trates. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You are and have always been considered as a straight-out Re¬ 
 publican, have you not?—A. I was always a radical Republican and 
 am now. 
 
 Q. And you do not consider it necessary to approve of this exodus in 
 order to maintain your standing in the party?—A. No, sir; because 1 
 oppose it they call me a Democrat. If I approve it in Louisiana and 
 Mississippi then I am all right, arid as I oppose this from North Caro¬ 
 lina, my own State, knowing that there is no necessity for it, of course 
 I am a Democrat. 
 
 Q. As I understand you, there are some things, you say, to criticize 
 in North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any political commonwealth on the face of the 
 globe where the same thing is not true?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you think, despite the truth of these things, that it is better 
 for the colored people to remain there in North Carolina than to go to 
 Indiana or elsewhere?—A. I think it is better for them to stop there. I 
 think North Carolina is a Republican State, and since Governor Vance 
 has come up here to the Senate I do not think there is any man in the 
 borders of that State that can carry it against the Republican party or 
 against Sam Phillips, who is its best representative. 
 
 Q. You think Governor Vance is a strong man, then?—A. Yes, sir; 
 he is the strongest man in the State. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Phillips is the strongest man with the Republicans?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; he is the strongest man with the Republicans. 
 
 Q. What is the secret of Governor Vance’s strength ?—A. Governor 
 Vance has treated the colored people better than any man who was 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 109 
 
 ever Governor of the State. He gave them their normal school. I 
 know that when on the stump he told them not to vote for him, as he 
 wms a Democrat of the very worst sort, and two days after he was elec¬ 
 ted he made a speech and promised them their school, and in a few 
 months afterwards they had it. He can carry the State against any¬ 
 body down there, Democrat or Republican, and I do not think anybody 
 else can carry it Democratic, now that he is here in the Senate. 
 
 Q. You think you have enough votes in the Republican party to carry 
 the State down there ?—A. We have more white and colored Republi¬ 
 cans there than there are in any other State South 5 we have 80,000 of 
 them. 
 
 Q. The composition of the Republican party is largely colored ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they dictate the policy of the Republican party ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And the Republican party, you think, being in perhaps a majority, 
 will be strong enough to enforce a liberal policy towards the colored 
 people ?—A. \ r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, beyond that—of course I am a Democrat and I expect you 
 to speak from your own standpoint as a Republican—but I ask you to 
 take Governor Vance; has he not a following in his party favorable to 
 the colored people, and to giving them a fair chance with the white peo¬ 
 ple ?—A. Yes, sir; or else he would not have given us the normal school. 
 We also have an asylum for the deaf and dumb ; it is not as large as 
 the white asylum, but it is just as hue, and that was given to us by Gov¬ 
 ernor Vance. 
 
 Q. You edit a paper and take all the colored papers from all parts of 
 the United States, do you not? Do you know of any other State that 
 does as much for the colored people ?—A. I do not know of all that has 
 been done by the States, but there is a school in Missouri at Lincoln 
 Institute, and that I believe is the only one outside of North Carolina 
 that I know of, provided by a Democratic legislature. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it true that they have not such a school in Indiana ?—A. Not 
 that I know of; and that is given by a Democratic legislature. 
 
 Q. That school in North Carolina was given by a Democratic legisla¬ 
 ture ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And by and through the advice of a Democratic governor?—A. 
 And the insane asylum was built, I think, since Governor Vance was 
 elected. 
 
 Q. That was done by a Democratic legislature ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there is a provision made now to build a second insane asy¬ 
 lum ?—A. Yes, sir; down at Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. It is in process of erection ?—A. Yes, sir; I think it is. 
 
 Q. The United States Government does not give the colored people a 
 separate insane asylum here, does it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that you have a deaf and dumb asylum in the course of 
 operation there ?—A. Yes, sir; it is as fine a building as there is in the 
 United States, and the children and teachers are all there and doing 
 well. 
 
 Q. What party gave that to the colored people?—A. The Democratic 
 legislature. 
 
 Q. And taking all that into consideration, you think it would be 
 better for the colored people to stay in North Carolina than to go to 
 Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir ; that is what I thought, and that is the reason 
 I opposed their going to Indiana. 
 
 On motion the committee adjourned to Friday, January 30, 1880, at 
 half past ten o’clock a. in. 
 
110 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 SIXTH HAY. 
 
 Washington, Friday , January 30, 1880. 
 
 The committee met, pursuant to its order of adjournment, at 10.30 a. m. 
 
 Present, tlie chairman and all the members of the committee. 
 
 The taking of testimony was resumed as follows : 
 
 TESTIMONY OF CHARLES N. OTEY. 
 
 Charles N. Otey (colored) recalled. 
 
 By Senator Yoorhees : 
 
 Q. Before passing you, Mr. Otey, over to Mr. Blair for the purpose 
 of cross-examination, if there is anything that has occurred to you since 
 your examination in chief which you desire to offer in explanation of 
 your testimony, you have the opportunity now to do so.—A. Yes, sir • 
 I do desire to make an explanation. I read from the National Republi¬ 
 can of Wednesday morning, January 28, 1880 ; it is an editorial; it is a 
 very lengthy one and I read only that part that refers to me and my 
 testimony. 
 
 u We notice that a colored citizen named Otie”— 
 
 Now, this man who wrote this article knows me as well as anybody 
 in this room, as well as I know myself or anybody else, and yet he 
 spells my name wrong, u Otie”; he knows my name, for I have written 
 over fifty articles for that newspaper— 
 
 We notice that a colored citizen named Otie has given evidence which has made the 
 Democrats somewhat hilarious, but when Senator Blair shall have got through with 
 shaking his testimony up and cleaning the wheat of truth from the chaff of nonsense 
 aud folly with which it is mixed, the yield of wheat will be too insignificant to be 
 worthy of consideration. Mr. Otie may be a very good-intentioned sort of person, but 
 his testimony, so far as it has come to our notice, appears to be of the hack and coal 
 order, which is marketable at cheap rates. He undoubtedly intended to tell the truth, 
 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the reason given for changing position 
 on the exodus is a little too thin to bear with much weight upon the question. It 
 looks as if it had been made to order, and he had undertaken to peddle it out for 
 Democratic delectation. We may refer to this again when his wire is fully run from 
 the reel and Senator Blair shall have got through with straightening out his entangle¬ 
 ments under a close and rigid cross-examination. 
 
 I desire to answer that, for I prefer not to be misrepresented, and so 
 I answer it from my notes: 
 
 The National Republican intimates that I was coached for the occa¬ 
 sion when I testified before this committee. In answer to that, I say 
 under oath that I have not talked with a Democrat either on politics or 
 the exodus since the summer of 1872. 
 
 The same paper intimates that I was bought up. In answer to that 
 I will say that there is not enough money in the United States Treas¬ 
 ury to buy me. I know that Republicans very frequently sell out, and 
 I doubt not that the editor of the Republican was honest and meant 
 no harm when he intimated that I had engaged in a business so com¬ 
 mon. 
 
 The difference between my Republicanism and his. is this, viz: he 
 has been well paid for all the service lie has rendered the party, while I 
 have never made one cent out of politics, though I have worked hard 
 for the party all my life. 
 
 I have never asked for governmental position and never held one. 
 
 I have great respect for Mr. Clapp, aud will do him the justice to say 
 that had he known me better he would have insinuated less. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. Ill 
 
 His assistant, Col. E. P. Brooks, knows well that no more radical arti¬ 
 cles were ever written for bis paper than those 1 have written. 
 
 1 have never wavered in my devotion to the principles of the Repub¬ 
 lican party, but I love my race more than I do party. 1 have no objec¬ 
 tion to Indiana going Republican in the coming election. I wish that 
 all the States in the Uniou would go that way. 
 
 I object to deluding the ignorant people of my race. I object to the 
 carrying them in the midst of the winter like so many hogs or sheep to 
 a State that I have always considered the worst in the Union for col¬ 
 ored people. 
 
 Why, in the days of slavery there was a law on the statute-books of 
 that State that forbade the entrance of a negro within its sacred pre¬ 
 cincts, and I believe that so far as action by the legislature is con¬ 
 cerned the law has never been repealed. 
 
 Within the past two years a negro outraged a white prostitute in 
 some town in that State, and the whole white population arose as one 
 man and drove from the town every colored person that lived in it. 
 Governor Williams had to call out the militia to put a stop to the whole¬ 
 sale persecution of my race. This information I got from the news¬ 
 papers of both political parties. 
 
 It may be well and good for men who make their living out of the 
 party, to abuse me because of my opposition to the use of my race. I 
 am a Republican because I believe in the principles of the party. I am 
 opposed to the exodus from North Carolina because I am a negro. 
 
 The National Republican also says that there was much nonsense in 
 my testimony. I ask this committee to summon from the old North 
 State J. H. Harris, Osborne Hunter, jr., B. J. Edwards, W. V. Turner, 
 and Stewart Ellison, of Raleigh, N. C.; Col. J. T. Wasson, of Golds- 
 borough ; George Price, jr., of Wilmington ; also, Col. George Mabson, of 
 the same city; William Mabson, of Tarborough—all radical colored Re¬ 
 publicans—and if they do not corroborate every word I have said, then, 
 with Jim Anderson, I am willing to go down in history as the greatest 
 liar of the age. 
 
 I almost forgot to state that I did hold an office in North Carolina for 
 two years, during which time I was teaching school and studying law 
 here in Washington. It was not the office of Government Printer; nei¬ 
 ther was it any other sinecure. I was, in 1873, elected, while on a visit 
 to my native city, school trustee for the township of Raleigh—that was 
 only a fiduciary trust. I wish that all men would act as honestly as I 
 did during those two years. I never saw a dollar, for there was no dol¬ 
 lar to be seen. I appointed all the colored teachers, and they taught 
 faithfully, knowing that when old Wake was able they would be paid. 
 They were paid, but I was in Washington and could not get a percent¬ 
 age. I did, though, receive a good deal of abuse; for, unwittingly , in my 
 appointments, I appointed no denomination but Methodists and Episco¬ 
 palians. Now, I was a Methodist, and my oldest brother’s wife was a 
 member of the Episcopal church, and, consequently, all the other de¬ 
 nominations spared me not for two years. 
 
 Now, God kuows that I made the appointments solely on account of 
 the merit of the applicants, as shown by the certificates presented to me 
 by the examiner. I have never desired a public office since. 
 
 Mr. Clapp seems angry because, as he says, the Democrats were hila¬ 
 rious over my testimony. 
 
 Now, I cannot help that. If the truth makes a man happy, I think 
 that the one who told it ought to be honored, not vilified. 
 
 In the last part of his editorial he seems to threaten me. That has 
 
 X. 
 
112 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 been tried on me before and would not take. Let me say to him that 1 
 am as honest as he and as good a Republican as he. without expectation 
 of reward. He knows about as much of the condition of the colored 
 people in North Carolina as lie does about the pearly gates of the New 
 Jerusalem. 
 
 Here before this committee he testified that he knew but little about 
 the exodus, having only acted as treasurer. 1 believe every word that 
 he said, because 1 believe him to be an honest and truthful man. 
 
 Why should he question me—a man identified with the race, most in¬ 
 terested in this exodus ? Three years ago, as associate editor of the 
 People’s Advocate, I wrote and published there editorials in opposition 
 to the Western emigration from the South of the people of my race. I 
 did this at a time when there was no stampede—when there was no ex¬ 
 citement and no exodus. Outside of my duties, I study nothing but the 
 interests of my race, and I think that I ought to be allowed to express 
 my views without being abused by anybody. 
 
 Are colored men to be denied a privilege which all other races enjoy ? 
 I consider that man a scoundrel or a fool who willfully traduces another 
 because of the honest expression of his opinions. 
 
 Free speech is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, 
 and by the help of God I intend to take advantage of that amendment 
 so long as 1 live. From the beginning I have opposed the exodus from 
 my native State. I have had no selfish motives, for the people who 
 have gone West went not from the section in which I live or expect to 
 live. I have consistently opposed it for what I consider the good of 
 my race and ray party. 
 
 If this be Democracy then let my enemies make the most of it. 
 
 1 also desire, in talking about what my testimony is based upon, to 
 read an article published December 9, 1879, in the Raleigh Republican, 
 taken from the Roanoke News: 
 
 Enfield, N. C., Dec. 15, 1879. 
 
 Editor Roanoke News: 
 
 Sir: In your issue of tlie lltli inst. I find tlie following paragraph: “According to 
 James E. O’Hara’s speech at the industrial fair recently held at Raleigh, the colored 
 people in Halifax County own thirteen thousand acres of laud, &c.” 
 
 Many persons question the assertion, and regard it as a mere ipse dixit of mine, upon 
 which it would be, to say the least, a great presumption to give credence. 
 
 Not desiring to startle those who can see no good in the colored man, nor make the 
 credulous uneasy, I told only of part of the colored man’s acquisition in this and ad¬ 
 joining counties, but now refer you to the list of the county for the year 1878, where 
 you will find the fact by townships to be as follows: 
 
 Acres 
 
 Brinkleyville township 
 Bntterwood township.. 
 
 Caledonia township- 
 
 Conocanarie township. 
 
 Enfield township. 
 
 Faucetts township- 
 
 Halifax township.. 
 
 Littleton township.... 
 Roseneath township... 
 
 Palmyra township. 
 
 Weldon township. 
 
 2, 609' 
 
 2 *> 
 
 1,186 
 628- 
 2, 006 
 216 
 
 3, 458 
 2, 479 
 
 2,228 
 769 
 
 Total.16,601 
 
 Nor is this the full amount with which the colored man is entitled to be accredited, 
 because, after a person arrives beyond the age to pay a poll tax, there are no means by 
 which you can tell from the tax list to which race lie belongs, thus in collecting the 
 fact we are obliged to take those only who are not above the poll-tax age (fifty years), 
 unless it be those personally known to he colored, and my memory of names being 
 quite deficient, but a few are added to those listing a poll. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 113 
 
 The above does not include the many acre aud half-acre lots owned by colored people 
 in the suburbs of Enfield, Halifax, Scotland, Neck, and Weldon, nor does it include 
 new town lots in Enfield, with substantial, comfortable houses erected thereon, sur¬ 
 rounded by gardens showing taste and some culture, aud a decided air of health’ aud 
 contentment. Thirteen town lots in Halifax and at least twelve in Weldon, valued in 
 the aggregate thousands of dollars. 
 
 While speaking of Enfield it is but just that I should state that the greater portion 
 of those owning lots with comfortable houses within the corporate limits are indebted 
 to the kindness of James H. Parker, esq., who, after selling them lots, provided work 
 whereby they might, in an easy manner, procure aud pay for their homes. 
 
 Among his many kind and good deeds, silently yet timely administered to the 
 colored people, none, I dare say, can give him more real pleasure than the conscious¬ 
 ness of knowing that, through his kindness, many worthy merchants are now able to 
 sit around their own fireside, and for his acts of kindness he has the love and respect 
 of the colored people that know him. 
 
 The colored people in acquiring land are not contented at this alone, and a day’s 
 ride among these people in the country would satisfy the most skeptical that their 
 farms are in a good state of cultivation, well stocked with horses, mules, cattle, and 
 the modern implements of agriculture, and the exhibition at the industrial fair has 
 at least taught many that not only in agriculture and mechanics, but also in the fine 
 arts, the negro’s sun in North Carolina is above the horizon and steadily advancing, 
 regardless of dark clouds aud rude storms, to a splendid meridian. 
 
 All that was said of the counties of Nash, Warren, and those adjacent, in the ad¬ 
 dress will easily be verified in the same manner as the assertion about the lands owned 
 in the county of Halifax. 
 
 I regret that newspapers often speak of the colored people as “ a shiftless, improvi¬ 
 dent class of our population,” when the above showing has no parallel in history, 
 added to the further fact (painful though the admission may be to our white friends) 
 that the colored people of the State are far “ahead in the acquisition of property, 
 knowledge, and culture of that class known as poor whites” in ante-bellum days; and 
 it is no idle boast when we say to our white brethren, look well to your laurels or 
 your boasted superiority backed by two thousand years of advantage, may vanish 
 like the mist before a bright summer’s sun er*b this people shall celebrate its centen¬ 
 nial jubilee of liberty. Regardless of Emigration Aid Society, Kausas Pacific Rail¬ 
 way agents, county boards of canvassers, who subvert the will of the people and send 
 the defeated candidate to the national legislature, while they strain at a guat and 
 swallow a camel; the bulk of the colored people will remain in North Carolina, shar¬ 
 ing in common with other citizens her weal or her woe, building up her waste places 
 and assisting her to take that rank among her sister States of the American Union 
 that she is eminently deserving to take. 
 
 A slight glance backward at the past decade will show even to the most casual ob¬ 
 server that the negro in North Carolina and the majority of the Southern States will 
 not have to compete in the race of life with the sturdy sou of Erin’s isle, the keen¬ 
 witted Scotchman, the money-saviug German, nor in tact any of the European emi¬ 
 grants annually thronging our shores, for before the pleasant “Westward ho” shall 
 have lost talismauic sweetness to the ear aud heart of the foreign emigraut, our waste 
 places shall have been built up, aud hill aud dale smile as they acknowledge and pay 
 tribute to the colored man’s ownership. Another fact in this connection worthy of 
 notice is, that not even with the heirs to ancestral estates will the colored 
 man long have to contend for its ownership or fight in his efforts to acquire 
 title to broad acres or fertile fields, for it cannot be denied that a majority 
 of our white young men flee the farm as though pestilence and death held 
 high carnival there; and, whether obtained by device, gift, or marriage, farms are 
 often deserted, their young owners acting in many instances as though they felt it 
 more honorable to be allowed to say small nothings to or smile at the belles of fashion 
 from behind a yard stick, at a certain monthly stipend, or more profitable to deal out 
 liquid poison to the thoughtless and unwary, than to beau independent farmer or me¬ 
 chanic, while hundreds seek professions and occupations leading to fortune and fame, 
 but never reaching the goal, and lauds thus abandoned must in the very nature of 
 things fall in the possession of the colored man, who is desirous of obtaining it when 
 that"desire is coupled with the means or other ability to pay for it. 
 
 Aud yet another cause why the colored man will remain here and increase in wealth 
 and assist in building up the State as he builds himself up: In Eastern North Carolina 
 the most valuable and productive lands are the swamp lands and river bottoms, which 
 to properly drain aud ditch would impoverish their present owners, who must either 
 allow them to lie waste, taxed without yielding profit, or sell them on easy terms to 
 the colored man, who alone is not afraid of their miasmatic influence, and who, by his 
 own brain and sinew, will ditch, drain, cultivate, and cause the same, now useless, but 
 fertile, land, alter a few years, to smile beneath a golden harvest. 
 
 In face of the foregoing facts we must weld and strengthen the bond of sym- 
 
 8 EX 
 
114 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 pathy ami kindness now existing between the white and colored people, and if possi¬ 
 ble make it firmer and more durable. A higher respect by both must be given to every 
 bargain and agreement made, contract must be faithfully executed by both parties, an 
 earnest effort by all to make each other feel and realize that fact that we are, by no 
 act of our own, but by the decree of God himself, destined to inhabit together, whether 
 for good or evil, this fair land, and that whether it be good or ill we, and we only, arc 
 the makers thereof. 
 
 Those who have accustomed themselves to look at the negro only from the dark side 
 of the picture, often say, “ If the negro would only stop stealing I would tolerate him 
 better,” meaning by this pseudo sympathy notan individual, but the race. I will say, 
 that while I neither excuse, justify, nor apologize tor the colored man who steals or 
 commits crime, you cannot judge the entire race by these few, nor can you hold the 
 race responsible. Can you judge the entire race of Jews by a Fagan or Shy lock? 
 Certainly not. Do you judge the white race by its Tweeds, its bank robbers, its de¬ 
 faulting presidents, treasurers, cashiers, its midnight burglars, and myriads of thieves 
 and rogues ? Certainly not. Then justice demands the same measurement and judg¬ 
 ment tor the colored race; nothing more nor nothing less. 
 
 With all the parade and obloquy cast upon crimes committed by the colored people 
 in this and adjoining counties, I venture the assertion that there is no place in the 
 American Union, or elsewhere, where high crimes are less, in accordance with the pop¬ 
 ulation, than in Eastern'North Carolina. 
 
 To the colored people I will say you have done well in the past ten years, but you 
 can and must do better in the future. March manfully up the path of duty until you 
 reach the zenith ; work hard and untiring; hold and save for old age all you acquire by 
 honest toil; educate your children; improve the morals of your societies; shuu grog¬ 
 shops; and by the aid of God, who has helped us thus far, nothing can prevent us 
 from enjoying a bright and prosperous future. 
 
 JAS. E. O’HARA. 
 
 By the Chairman 
 
 Q. Have you entertained other views than these ?—A. 1 have not. 
 
 Q. You have always expressed'the same sentiments with reference to 
 the exodus movement ?—A. Yes, sir. I went into the Emigrant Aid 
 Society, as I thought, to aid those people who were fleeing from persecu¬ 
 tion in the South, and I said I would go into it for no other purpose. 
 
 Q. Have you any views of your own, expressed at auy other time, 
 which you desire to put into the record?—A. I have an article which 1 
 published, and which was republished in every part of North Carolina. 
 
 Senator Vance. I think it would be fair to the witness if he would 
 just say that he has held the same views all the time, and that on other 
 dates previous to this he had written certain articles expressing those 
 views, and giving the dates. 
 
 The Witness. This article was written before there was any move¬ 
 ment made to investigate the exodus movement, December 13, 1879. I 
 wrote it myself, and it is headed “A Great Shame. ?? It was at the time 
 some of these men came to this city for the first time. I did not con¬ 
 sult anybody about it, but I wrote the article of my own volition ; and 
 while I think a great deal of Mr. Wall and these other gentlemen per¬ 
 sonally I cannot agree with them about this movement. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Are we to understand, Mr. Otey, that all that you have stated and 
 read here is sworn to by you?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You make these extracts and all a part of your oath. Before I 
 come to the papers you have quoted I want to ask you a few general 
 questions. How long have you lived in North Carolina?—A. 1 lived 
 there until I was Hi or 17 years old. 
 
 Q. When did you leave there?—A. In 18G7 I left there—in August. 
 I was born in 1851. 
 
 Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To Oberlin, Ohio, and staid 
 there until 1 SGI). 1 entered a class there and staid in it three months. 
 
 Q. When have you beeu back to North Carolina ?—A. Sometimes 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 115 
 
 each year in vacation ; sometimes every two years in vacations, and in 
 January, which would make it average every year. I generally go in 
 August and stay through the summer, and then go back at Christmas. 
 
 Q. When were you there last ?—A. The 31st of last December. 
 
 Q. At whose invitation did you go?—A. By the invitation of the 
 whole people of the county of Wake to deliver the address on the day 
 of the celebration of the emancipation proclamation. 
 
 Q. What was the subject of your address?—A. What the colored 
 people had already achieved and what they ought to do for further 
 progress. 
 
 Q. Was the exodus the subject of it ?—A. No, sir; I spoke not a half 
 minute on it. 
 
 Q. You said you were invited by the whole people of the county ; 
 what do mean by it?—A. I mean that the colored people who came to 
 the court-house to a meeting elected me unanimously as the orator of 
 the day. 
 
 Q. Did they pay your expenses there ?—A. No, sir; I paid my own. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything in your address to discourage the exodus ? 
 —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any letter from anybody on that subject ?—A. No. sir. 
 
 Q. Nothing of that kind was embodied in your address ?—A. No, 
 sir. This was the third time I had spoken there on a similar occasion, 
 and while I was there I spoke to parties all the way through the State 
 from every part of it, not on this subject particularly. 
 
 Q. What you said on the subject of the exodus, I suppose, you wrote 
 after you got there?—A. Yes, sir; that morning before I made my ad¬ 
 dress. 
 
 Q. Did you oppose the exodus from North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you favor it from elsewhere?—A. Yes, sir; wherevei they are 
 oppressed. 
 
 Q. Do you know that it is a very insignificant affair in North Carolina 
 as compared with what it is from other States?—A. No, sir. I know it 
 has not stopped there yet. 
 
 Q. Taking it up to the present time, how mauy do you think have 
 gone from North Carolina?—A. Well, sir, I think 3,000 people are a 
 pretty large number to pick up and leave a State witnout cause. 
 
 Q. Do you know that 3,000 have gone?—A. Somebody said so here 
 the other day, that there had been 2,500 or 3,000. 
 
 Q. Do you know that Captain Wall said afterwards that he did not 
 know that that was true?—A. Yes, sir; but that went into the news¬ 
 papers as the substance of his testimony. 
 
 Q. Did you hear the railroad agent testify as to the number who 
 have gone from North Carolina ?—A. I heard him testify when he said 
 he would take as many as wanted to go to Indiana, and then would go 
 out there and bring them back again. 
 
 Q. Did you read his statement in which lie said there were not 200 
 men that had gone ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear him say he had sold all the tickets, and that the 
 whole number would not exceed 704 men, women, and children; and 
 when cross-examined he said 200 would cover the entire number of men 
 who had gone?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you get your information that 3,000 had gone?—A. 
 From what Captain Wall said. I did not hear all of his statement, and I 
 only took it from what I saw in the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Well, from what this railroad agent said, do you think it is a 
 
116 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 startling political movement ?—xY. I have not given my opinion as to 
 that. 
 
 Q. Now, you say it is a great political movement, and that that fact 
 drove you out of the Emigrant Aid Society; now, this agent has testified 
 that he sold all the tickets, and that there are not 200 men who have 
 gone to Indiana, do you think that a very startling political matter?— 
 A. No; I do not think so. 
 
 C>. Do uotyou think thus far it is very insignificant as compared with 
 the movement from other States of the South, Mississippi and Louisi¬ 
 ana, for instance?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that these colored people are not oppressed in North 
 Carolina?—A. I know they are not, and if I had the money I would go 
 down there into every city and township and advise then not to leave 
 North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You stated in your testimony “that it cannot be denied that we 
 have grievances ”; if that is true, what are they ?—A. Well, perhaps this 
 landlord and tenant act is one of the grievances. I do not know to 
 what extent it might become such, for I have'not examined it, but the 
 colored people think it bears hard on them in some respects ; and imme¬ 
 diately after Governor Yance was elected the constitution was changed 
 so as to give the legislature the right to appoint the magistrates in all 
 the counties ; and here, in a county where there are 1,200 or 1,500 lie- 
 publican majority, all the courts are in the hands of the Democrats. 
 The legislature, being Democratic, appointed Democratic magistrates in 
 those counties, and they appoint county commissioners, and they select 
 the school commissioners in all the townships. The colored people, 
 having had the right before that of electing their magistrates, felt 
 aggrieved at this change. The colored people, having had and ex¬ 
 ercised the right of suffrage for only a few years, felt aggrieved at 
 having it taken away. I have talked with them about it, and that 
 is their feeling. Now, a question was brought up here the other day 
 about the defeat of Mr. O’Hara for Congress and about votes being 
 thrown out; but, as I understand it, iu most of the counties where that 
 was done, it was done by these Kepublican supervisors. 
 
 Q. Are these the only grievances you have heard of?—A. No, sir ; 1 
 have met several men, some of them very intelligent colored men, in 
 Captain Wall’s office, who said they were cheated in their bargains. 
 One of them said he had bought a farm and agreed to pay $2,000 for it, 
 and after paying $1,800 on it, he found that it did not belong to the 
 man from whom he had bought it. 1 told him he ought to have gone 
 to the court of record and learned the facts, but that I thought he was 
 more likely to be cheated in Indiana than he was in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Y r ou seem to have a poor opinion of Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If these people do go to the Western States, where would you ad¬ 
 vise them to go?—A. Where they can get lauds from the government 
 at $1.25 an acre, and where they can live in peace and comfort on their 
 own property. If they could be directed to some such place as that, 1 
 would work for it myself. 
 
 Q. Well, from youropiniou of Indiana, I am afraid you think it is a 
 poor State, and your testimony would destroy the white emigration ?— 
 A. No , sir ; I hardly think it will. The colored people, you know, can¬ 
 not compete with the Germans and Irish as laborers. 
 
 Q. Did you know of any discriminations in the administration of jus¬ 
 tice in the courts?—A. No. sir. 
 
 / 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any ?—A. No, sir. e 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of a case in Greensborough where a colored 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 117 
 
 man stole 75 cents and was sent to the penitentiary for five years ?—A. 
 I do not know ; it may be possible. They have a law in North Carolina 
 like they have in Virginia to punish petit larceny, but they have no 
 whipping-posts like they have in Delaware. 
 
 Q. Do you think a white man would be sent to the penitentiary for 
 five years for stealing that amount of money ?—A. Yes, sir. I tell you 
 there was a man down there who stole a knife from another man : it was 
 during the war; but it was after the war when he was brought up. He 
 was convicted and taken to the public whipping post and whipped for it. 
 
 Q. What year was that ?—A. I do not remember, sir, now. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Who was governor at that time ?—A. I think Governor Vance, 
 Senator. I say they whipped a white man so they could get a chance 
 to whip about five hundred negroes. They whipped many of them 
 afterwards. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You think they took up and whipped a white man so as to justify 
 the whipping of about 500 negroes ?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think a State where they whip one white man so as to get 
 an excuse to whip 500 negroes is a good place for a colored man to live 
 in?—A. No, sir, I do not; but that was at another time. The State 
 was under martial law, and Colonel Mumford was there. He came out 
 with the troops, and demanded the stopping of this whipping. I said 
 they had been doing it for some time, and he wanted an end put to it. 
 Judge Fowl was judge of the court at that time, and that was in 1865, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. Do you think that Republicans take delight in the whipping of 
 colored people ?—A. No, sir; I do not say that. 
 
 Q. I read another statement here from a North Carolina paper again. 
 At the fall term of 1879 of the circuit superior court a colored man 
 named Crutch held was put on trial for stealing an old spade. The evi¬ 
 dence was of such a character that the judge charged the jury in favor 
 of the prisoner, but in defiance of the charge they brought in a verdict 
 of guilty. The judge, who was anxious to be the Democratic candidate 
 for governor, though he had charged the jury in favor of the prisoner, 
 did not hesitate a moment to sentence him to the penitentiary for two 
 years. Did you ever hear of that ?—A. No, sir; I never heard of that. 
 
 Q. You never heard of any of this sort of thing, and yet T have a 
 large number of them cited here ?—A. No, sir; but I will say that I 
 see the colored men who are in the penitentiary are treated the same as 
 the white men. I say for some classes of crimes they are all convicted 
 just the same. Up North they do not send people to the penitentiary 
 for petit larceny, but they do down there. I believe myself, as a Re¬ 
 publican, that the law was made for the purpose of disfranching colored 
 men. Jf a colored man steals a chicken he is pretty liable to be sent to 
 the penitentiary. 
 
 Q. You think the law is made to disfranchise the colored man ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that statement includes North Carolina ! —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they disfranchised when they are sent to the penitentiary ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; if they are sent to the penitentiary, unless they are par¬ 
 doned out, it takes away their right to vote ; but the trouble is that 
 you can hardly tell one from the other, and they go off somewhere else 
 and vote all the same. 
 
 Q. Do you think that a State that passes such laws as that is a good 
 
118 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 place for the colored man to live ?—zY Yes, sir ; they make no discrim¬ 
 ination in the execution of them. 
 
 Q. Does it indicate a very kindly feeling and treatment on the part 
 of the whites towards the colored people?—A. Well, Senator, I say 
 again that I never saw such kindly treatment accorded by white people 
 to black people as is the case in North Carolina. I will bring you up a 
 reminiscence to show you. When Fort Fisher was captured, I went to 
 take a dispatch to Governor Vance. I was a telegraph messenger. I 
 carried the dispatch to his house from general somebody, and when I 
 got to the house it was about twelve o’clock at night. I went into the 
 bouse and gave the governor the dispatch. I was a pretty sassy boy 
 about that time, and he said for me to waft for the dispatch in reply. 
 I said I was sleepy and wasn’t going to do it. He told me to wait, and 
 took me into his room and got a pillow and put me to sleep on the floor 
 until he wrote his dispatch and got ready to send it back. 
 
 Q. How do you account for it that things are in so good a condition 
 for the colored people in North Carolina and not in other States?—A. 
 Because in most of the other States they have no white Republicans, 
 while down there in North Carolina we have 30,000 to 40,000 white 
 voters, who belong, some of them, to the most respectable classes. 
 
 Q. Do you think the white Republicans there are in a large measure 
 responsible for the good condition of that State ?—A. Yes, sir; we 
 have plenty of them. I think the State itself is a Republican State, 
 and no man can carry it in a Presidential race against the Republican 
 candidates except it be Governor Vance, and l hope he will not go 
 down there this fall. I want the State to go Republican, and Indiana, 
 too, if we can get it. 
 
 Q. If you were a Radical Republican, would you not wantthe Repub¬ 
 licans to stay there in the State?—A. Yes, sir; because I think they 
 are doing well enough, and believing the State to be Republican, I 
 want to keep it so. 
 
 Q. Is your Republicanism of that order that you want to keep these 
 people in North Carolina for their votes?—A. No, sir ; not particularly. 
 You can take from 3,000 to 5,000 out of the State, and we still can 
 carry the State, unless Governor Vance is a candidate. 
 
 Q. Do not you think it is a very bad policy to take them from North 
 Carolina and risk the loss of- the State, when you can take them from 
 Kentucky much easier?—A. Yes, sir; I think it is very bad policy, es¬ 
 pecially while there are about 10,000 in this town that you can take up 
 and carry away without detriment to anybody. 
 
 Q. You think it bad policy for the Republicans to advise this emigra¬ 
 tion ?—A. I do not say that anybody is taking the lead in this matter 
 as a political movement; but I have heard men say so. 
 
 Q. What do you know about it ?—A. Only what I stated in my first 
 testimony. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anybody mention it, except Mendenhall ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with any Republicans about it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you written about it?—A. Yes, sir; frequently. 
 
 Q. You say you only heard Mr. Mendenhall mention it ?—A. No, sir; 
 I do not say that I only heard him. 
 
 Q. V hat others did you hear?—A. That is another question. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any other person whom you heard advise it for 
 apolitical measure?—A. No, sir; not bynames. He is the only man 
 who said it in a public speech. Private conversation in which the mat¬ 
 ter has been mentioned is another thing. I do not think, Mr. Chair- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 119 
 
 man, I am caMed upon to give away tlie private conversations of 
 friends. 
 
 Q. We would be glad to have any proof that the Republican party is 
 engaged in this movement—anybody that you have heard advise it for 
 political purposes ; how many have you heard t —A. I do not remember 
 the number. 
 
 Q. Then you decline to name anybody ?—A. Yes, sir; because the 
 only man who said it publicly was Mendenhall. The rest of them said 
 it privately, and unless I am forced to do so by order of the committee, 
 I will not call their names. 
 
 Q. Then there might have been two or a hundred?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they prominent Republicans?—A. Yes, sir; they were, and 
 active. 
 
 Senator Windom. We insist, Mr. Chairman, that he shall state the 
 names. Here is a charge brought against prominent Republicans who 
 advised this exodus for a political purpose, and we insist that he shall 
 give the names. 
 
 The Chairman. I would have no objection to his doing so myself, 
 but I think the witness has the right to withhold his private conversa¬ 
 tions. 
 
 Senator Blair. We insist that he shall give us the names. We want 
 him to tell who they are, that we may call them as witnesses to see 
 whether'.or not they have said any such thing to this witness. We do 
 not believe it. 
 
 The Chairman. I will state that we have gone along very loosely 
 with reference to this matter. We have sought a number of times to 
 get some information from the reports and minutes of this Emigrant 
 Aid Society, and Mr. Wall and Mr. Fearing have promised, both of 
 them, to bring those reports to the committee, and they have not done it. 
 
 Senator Blair. That is not the point, Mr. Chairman, here. If this 
 witness says he does not remember the names, that is the end of it. 
 
 The Chairman. This is an open investigation of this subject, but I 
 am not one of those kind of men who force private letters and conversa¬ 
 tions from witnesses. 
 
 The Witness. I will say for the benefit of the committee that this 
 is the reason why I do not desire to give the names, while perfectly 
 able to do so : that men cannot speak their sentiments upon some sub¬ 
 jects here in Washington without being turned out of office and the 
 positions that they hold, and it is to protect my friends in that regard 
 that I decline to give the names. 
 
 By Mr. Windom: 
 
 Q. What positions are they in?—A. They are men who talked hon¬ 
 estly to me, and who might lie forced out of their places on the first 
 opportunity for having given away their opinions on the political nature 
 of this movement. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Then these were men who agreed with you in your opinion of it ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. I ask you for the names of the men who mentioned to you that 
 this thing should be done for political purposes.—A. I never said but 
 one of them did; I also think, Mr. Senator, that you should cross- 
 examine me upon the examination of Saturday, and not go off into this 
 original matter. 
 
120 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand the witness, he speaks of persons 
 who have talked with him about this being a political movement, and 
 who, like him, are opposed to it, and he fails to mention their names 
 because they might be forced out ot their positions in consequence of 
 these opinions. 
 
 Senator Blair. The point made by the witness was that this was a 
 movement urged forward by these prominent Republicans, and he tries 
 to fix this responsibility upon the Republican party, and mentions that 
 two or a hundred have stated to him that it was a political movement; 
 and we want the names of these men. We want to defend the Republi¬ 
 can party from this charge. This man refuses to give the names of the 
 persons by whom it can be proved one way or the other, or by whom 
 his testimony can be contradicted. 
 
 The Witness. In the first place I have not charged it on the Repub¬ 
 lican party. There is not a word of mine or a paper you can get to 
 prove it by. I simply said that I was in that society; that a man in 
 that society got up and made a statement that it would be a good thing 
 to divert this exodus from Kansas to Indiana, as it was a doubtful 
 State, and he suggested taking them from North Carolina. I have 
 never made any charge upon the Republican party in connection with it. 
 
 Q. You do not mean to be understood as making any charge on the 
 Republican party as a party ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have no testimony to prove that it is interested in the 
 movement?—A. No, sir; I simply said that I believed it from hearing 
 men talking about it. I do not believe that Captain Wall, Mr. Holland, 
 or the others have made money out of it, but from that speech which 
 was made there that night I believed it was a political movement, and 
 I was tired of seeing my people hauled round the country like so many 
 hogs for political purposes. 
 
 By Mr. Windom: 
 
 Q. Then I understand that the two or a hundred who talked to you 
 were prominent Republicans, and agreed with you that these people should 
 not be carried there for political purposes?—A. lam goiug to answer 
 your question, and will say to you that we did not agree that they should 
 not be taken there for political purposes. We thought they should not 
 be induced to go there for any purpose, as they were better off in North 
 Carolina than they could possibly be in Indiana; but if they were going 
 we were in favor of their voting the Republican ticket. .1 had no ob¬ 
 jections to their going there at all if they were to be cared for when 
 they got there. 
 
 Q. Will you answer my question ?—A. What is the question ? 
 
 Q. YY>u stated that there were from two to a hundred people whom 
 you heard talk of the negroes going to Indiana for political purposes. 
 These were people opposed to their going for that purpose ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you mention the name of one man only who advised it ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you heard others do it except him?—A. Well, sir, he did 
 not advise it for political purposes, I do not think. 
 
 Q. What did he advise ?—A. I must state this in justice to Mr. Men¬ 
 denhall, that this was two months before the movement commenced 
 from North Carolina. Saint Louis was full of these colored people, and 
 Holland, Wall, and myself and one or two others started this society, 
 the purpose being to aid those who were fleeing from oppression in the 
 South. Saint Louis was full of them, and the first money collected was 
 sent to Saint Louis. That was a month or two before emigration began 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 121 
 
 from North Carolina. I think the first or second night that there was 
 a meeting of the society Mr. Mendenhall got up and made a speech, and 
 said he thought it would be a good thing to divert some of this emigra¬ 
 tion from North Carolina to Indiana, because Indiana was a doubtful 
 State. Eight then I said I would be opposed to it if it was to be a 
 political movement; so did Professor Greener, and nearly all of them 
 said so. 
 
 Q. Nearly all of them—portions of them said so ?—A. Yes, sir : and 
 Captain Wall and the others denied that it was a political movement. 
 
 Q. Then, if I understand you. there was a society, and a half a dozen 
 or more of prominent persons who were discussing the means of relief 
 of these people at Saint Louis were together, and one gentleman, Mr. 
 Mendenhall, suggested that the negroes be taken to Indiana for politi¬ 
 cal purposes, and all the rest opposed it ?—A. No, sir ; some of them 
 said nothing. Very few of them said a word. I was the only one who 
 made a speech, and Professor Greener said to me privately that he 
 would not favor a political movement. 
 
 Q. All that was said then was said by you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And others of them afterwards expressed the same opinion to you t 
 —A. Y r es, sir; that was afterwards. 
 
 Q. And if any of them agreed with Mr. Mendenhall they said noth¬ 
 ing?—A. Not publicly. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear them say anything privately?—A. No sir; not 
 that I remember. 
 
 Q. Did you attend another meeting of the society ?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 attended the third. 
 
 Q. And you heard it there again ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The only time you heard it was when it was said by Mendenhall, 
 and you opposed it and Greener opposed it ?—A. He said so that night, 
 but he is in favor of it now. 
 
 Q. Are you not in favor of it ?—A. Yes, sir; I am tor those who can 
 do better by it. 
 
 Q. You do not know that Professor Greener is in favor of it for any 
 political purpose ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou left because you were not in favor of it ; the others were op¬ 
 posing it, too, and yet you thought it was a political movement, because- 
 Mendenhall so stated it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is Mendenhall a Eepublican ?—A. Yes, sir : I do not know that 
 lie is a very prominent one, but he is a Eepublican. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he was authorized to speak for the Eepub¬ 
 lican party ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of somebody replenishing their depleted funds by those 
 means?—A. No, sir ; I did not say that. 
 
 Q. I thought I took it from your statement?—A. You might have 
 taken it from the newspapers. I think it was Jim Harris who stated it 
 in his speech. 
 
 Q. You do not know anything of it yourself '! —A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. What do you know of Jim Harris ?—A. 1 know he is the most 
 prominent colored Eepublican in the State of North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You published his speech, did you not?—A. No, sir; 1 read it 
 from his own paper. 
 
 Q. What is his character for honesty ?—A. I know of only one thing 
 against it. While he was in the Eepublican legislature, where every¬ 
 body stole something, lie is said to have taken $7,000. I do not know 
 whether he was guilty or not, as he was never tried, and never was 
 brought up to testify even. It is a charge that was brought in the can- 
 
122 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 vass of 1871. I went down there and they brought this charge against 
 him of* receiving $7,000 as a bribe about a railroad company or a rail¬ 
 road appropriation. He never was tried about it and has been in the 
 legislature since. He is the editor of the leading colored paper, and 
 was made editor by the white Republicans and others of the State. 
 
 Q. You speak of the u wholesale delusion of my people”; what do 
 you mean by that ?—A. I speak of the men who have gone down there 
 and stated to the ignorant colored people that the government wanted 
 them out in Indiana, that they would pay them a dollar and a half a 
 day for work in the winter, that they would get a suit of clothes in 
 Washington as they passed through, have their railroad fare paid, and 
 get two dollars and a half a day in the summer time. 
 
 Q. How did you hear all that ?—A. From North Carolina papers, and 
 from Jim Harris, who traveled over the whole district and who made a 
 speech in Wilmington. There were four or five thousand people there 
 who were opposed to this exodus, and Jim Harris went down and made 
 a speech, and so did Hunter, who traveled all through the State in the 
 interest of this colored people’s fair—a fair which was held by the col¬ 
 ored people of the State, and which the white men, Democrats and Re¬ 
 publicans, say was the best ever held in the State. 
 
 Q. What men do you refer to as having made these false and delusive 
 statements ?—A. Sam Perry, Williams, and Taylor Evans. 
 
 Q. Are those the only men who have been engaged in it ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; except the railroad agents. 
 
 Q. Those are the only colored men, however?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you not believe, and have you not heard also, that the railroad 
 company furnishes these men the money to go there and work up 
 this movement?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not know that the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Company 
 does it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Company 
 pays them a dollar a head ?—A. I believe it, but I do not know it. 
 
 Q. You do not know any others engaged in it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You believe there is a feeling of dissatisfaction there from some 
 cause among those colored people, which the Baltimore and Ohio Rail¬ 
 road Company has taken advantage of, and is going round with these 
 men to work up the movement, and they pay the men a dollar a head 
 for all they get to go ?—A. No, sir. You ask the question, Mr. Senator, 
 and you answer it yourself. # The people were not dissatisfied, but they 
 have been made so by these* men. These men go down there, and go 
 about them and tell them these great stories. If you go among igno¬ 
 rant men, white or black, gray or grizzly, who are getting only forty 
 cents a day, and tell them they can get a dollar and a half somewhere 
 else, they will want to go. It is these ignorant ones especially that 
 they play for, and these men when they get here say that they are told 
 to vote the Republican ticket when they get to Indiana. I do not ob¬ 
 ject to that, and I wish, if they could be taken care of and would not 
 suffer, that a million of them could go. 
 
 Q. Who did you hear tells them these stories of good times in Indi¬ 
 ana l —A. I heard that Perry told them so. 
 
 Q. Is he in the employment of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Com¬ 
 pany ?—A. I do not know, sir, but I heard that he told them these 
 things. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anybody else who has done that ?—A. Yes, sir; 
 Williams and Taylor Evans. I say I do not know anything about the 
 connection of these men with the movement, but what I say is, that I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 123 
 
 9 
 
 have heard from all the people who have come here from North Carolina, 
 and newspapers, that they were told all these things were true, that 
 there was plenty of employment there, and that the prices were high. 
 
 Q. Of course everybody down there pretty much is opposed to their 
 leaving ?—A. Yes, sir. They are leaving a district, however, where we 
 could afford to lose them, as it has L7,000 Republican majority. We 
 cau lose enough from that to carry Indiana, and still be able to carry 
 North Carolina; and the reason that the people are opposed to it is be¬ 
 cause they think they are being used and duped. 
 
 Q. 1 mean do not the people of North Carolina want to keep them 
 there on account of their citizenship ?—A. No, sir; I do not think that 
 makes any difference. Unless Governor Vance gets out and carries it, 
 we can carry it for the Republicans the next time. 
 
 Q. Then they are opposed to the negro going away because they 
 want him there ?—A. Well, Senator, the people from the North and 
 West do not understand the feeling. The people down there love the 
 negro. 
 
 Q. It is pure sympathy and love for the negro, then ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think that the negro is better looked after and will be 
 better treated among the white people of North Carolina ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was this society organized of which you speak ?—A. I 
 think in August or September, but I do not remember which month. 
 
 Q. Of what year?—A. Last year ; 1879. 
 
 Q. Were you present at its organization ?—A. Yes, sir; at the first 
 meeting. 
 
 Q. In the first place you were in favor of the exodus from the other 
 States as a relief to the negro?—A. I am in favor of the exodus where 
 I think the people who are emigrating think or feel they can better their 
 condition. I am opposed to their being deluded into moving from com¬ 
 fortable homes to an inhospitable State where they will suffer. 
 
 Q. You are in favor of it continuing from Louisiana and Missis¬ 
 sippi ?—A. Wherever I think they are oppressed. 
 
 Q. Do you think they are oppressed there?—A. I do not know. I 
 have not been there. 
 
 # Q I ask you, from the information you have from your race and your 
 papers, are you in favor of the exodus from Louisiana and Missis¬ 
 sippi ?—A. I am in favor of it when they are oppressed. 
 
 Q. Do you believe they are oppressed now ?—A. I do not know. I 
 know they have been. 
 
 Q. You are ignorant, then, on this subject ?—A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were in favor of it some time ago ?—A. Yes, sir ; very much. 
 
 Q. What has changed your opinions ?—A. Because I have not heard 
 of anything of the kind since. 
 
 Q. Have you not had any democratic associations that changed you 
 before you came to this committee ?—A. No, sir; I have not seen a 
 member of the committee or talked with them on political subjects, and 
 I have not talked very much politics, certainly not with Democrats, 
 since 1872. 
 
 Q. And you are balanced in your mind now as to whether you are in 
 favor of it from Mississippi and Louisiana, but you are opposed to it 
 from North Carolina?—A. I say I am in favor of it from other States 
 if they are oppressed there, and I am opposed to it from North Caro¬ 
 lina, because I know they are not oppressed. 
 
 Q. Well, you are opposed to it from North Carolina. Now how is it 
 with respect to Louisiana ?—A. I am in favor of it from there when 
 they are oppressed. 
 
124 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. And you do not know that they are oppressed ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you are in doubt as to whether you are in favor of it or 
 not?—A. If they are oppressed in those States, I am in favor of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether you are opposed to it from those States ?— 
 A. I am opposed to it when they are not oppressed, and in favor of it 
 when they are. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they are oppressed or not ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you now in favor of it ?—A. 1 am when they are oppressed. 
 
 Senator Windom. I shall not put the question any more, unless the 
 chairman would insist that the witness shall answer. 
 
 The Witness. 1 do not know anything about their oppressions there. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether you are opposed to it?—A. I am in favor 
 of it where they are oppressed, and not in favor of it where they are 
 not oppressed. 
 
 Mr. Windom insisted that the witness should answer the question in 
 some more specific form. 
 
 The Chairman. If you can think of any other form of answer please 
 do so. 
 
 The Witness. I will try. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion to give this committee at this time upon the 
 subject of the exodus from other States than North Carolina?—A. No,, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. For what reason do you decline to express an opinion ?—x4. Be¬ 
 cause I have not seen or heard anything about the exodus from those 
 States for a length of time, and because I am just from North Carolina, 
 where I am familiar with it. 
 
 Q. Then you have not any information on which to say that you are 
 or are not in favor of the exodus from Louisiana and Mississippi ?—A. 
 No, so. * 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Why could you not have answered me in that way?—A. I did. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know anything of the facts?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you have no opinion about it ? When you joined the society 
 what did you know ?—A. It was to aid the fleeing negroes from Missis¬ 
 sippi and Louisiana. 
 
 Q. Why ?—A. Because they said they were being oppressed. 
 
 Q. For what were they leaving Mississippi?—A. They said they were 
 being shot and oppressed. 
 
 Q. When was that?—A. lh August last, I think. 
 
 Q. If they were being done iu that way at that time has there any¬ 
 thing occurred to change the status of affairs?—A. I think, sir, after 
 the first exodus took place there have been no more outrages committed. 
 
 Q. Then you were in favor of it at that time ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And thought it was a good thing?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, the next point is you left the society organized to help them 
 because Mendenhall thought they should be sent from North Carolina 
 to Indiana?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And you knew no one else in the society who favored that but 
 him ?—A. I thought that was giving the society a political purpose. 
 
 Q. And therefore you left it?—A. I have stated that. 
 
 Q. I do not think vou put it on that specific ground.—A. I think I 
 did. 
 
 Q. Who else in this society favored it?—A. There were others in the 
 society in favor of it, I suppose. 
 
 Q. What makes you think so?—A. By their speeches and conduct. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 125 
 
 Q. Who made any speeches ?—A. That I do not propose to answer. 
 
 Q. Are the speeches .secrets?—A. No, sir, not specially. 
 
 Q. Now what speeches did you hear ?—A. I heard them speaking and 
 talking, but I left there after the third night. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that you and Mendenhall were the only ones who 
 spoke ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then you left?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And 1 suppose you know nothing of anything else that occurred 
 on that subject?—A. No, sir. These other matters were private con¬ 
 versations. 
 
 Q. You opposed their going from North Carolina to Indiana because 
 you thought they were better off in North Carolina ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say the Democratic party in North Carolina is opposed to 
 their going on account of their love for them?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not say so ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not say the people down there loved the negro ?—A. l"es, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. I say you did, too, and the minutes will show it.—A. I stated 
 that they liked them better down there than they do in the North. 
 
 Q. Did you not give that as a reason why they opposed the negroes 
 leaving?—A. Yes, sir; because they liked them, and think there is no 
 necessity for their moving away. 
 
 Q. And they think that the negro will not improve his condition, but 
 make it worse?—A. I do not know how they all feel about that, but I 
 think so. 
 
 Q. I mean the white people.—A. I have not talked with many of 
 them about it. 1 know the white newspapers are all opposed to it. 
 
 Q. On what ground ?—A. Because they say They do not think there is 
 any necessity for the removal of the colored people, and they think 
 they are getting along very well in North Carolina. The negro has 
 lived there all his life, and they need his labor. They have all those 
 things stated in the papers, but I have not talked with any Democrats 
 about politics since 1872. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. You confine your statement to North Carolina?—A. AYs, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have yon known of these misrepresentations by Perry, 
 Williams, and Evans ?—A. I do not know anything about them. Of 
 course I learned what I know abiut them # from others. I get informa¬ 
 tion from the newspapers published by both white and colored people. 
 Being an editor of one myself, I exchange with every paper in the 
 eastern part of the State. 
 
 Q. Did not the first load of emigrants from there go through here 
 last July ?—A. I do not remember. 
 
 Q. Well, the agitation must have been worked up before to get these 
 people to leave.—A. Y r es, sir; it began last spring. 
 
 Q. Then these stories must have been circulated last spring t —A. Y r es, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And these three men were then engaged in it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Going round through the State working up the feeling?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How long have the newspapers, white and colored, been opposed 
 to it?—A. Some time during the fall, when the papers began to speak 
 of it. 
 
 Q. Early in the fall?—A. Yes, sir; in September or October. 
 
120 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Very soon after the tirst company left, and after the misrepresen¬ 
 tations began to be found out?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, so far as you know, the entire white and colored papers, Re¬ 
 publican and Democratic, are opposed to it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have been engaged in exploding these statements?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, so far as you know, all the means of public intelligence have 
 been engaged since August in in exploding these statements and giv¬ 
 ing proper information to the people?—A. Yes, sir* all of them. 
 
 Q. Speakers and others have gone among them for that purpose ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have opposed the exodus?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And these local sources of information are the sources to which 
 the colored people would be likely to look for the truth ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the}^ would believe what they saw coming from their friends, 
 from the press and the clergy ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That being the case, and having been the case for some time, it 
 cannot be possible that the delusion continues, can it?—A. Well,’ right 
 there, Senator- 
 
 Q. Answer the question, and do not make a speech. I ask, with all 
 this information, with all the agencies of the State, all the avenues of 
 information engaged in exploding these stories, in dissipating the delu¬ 
 sion, have you any knowledge that it does still exist?—A. I have not. 
 
 Q. We sympathize, I believe, on political matters, Mr. Otey; but I 
 want to know, if the emigration continues after the delusion is ex¬ 
 ploded, does it not follow that it is based on accurate information?—A. 
 I can answer you, but you will not allow me. 
 
 Q. Your colored people down there are human beings?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 but they have false information. 
 
 Q. But the false information has been dissipated, and the emigration 
 continues; if it has not stopped, is not that good proof that it is based 
 on accurate information ?—A. The people who are emigrating do not 
 know anything of this ; they are the most ignorant people in the State. 
 There are not more than fifty intelligent men who have gone West out of 
 twenty-live hundred or three thousand people. 
 
 Q. Take the ignorant colored men of the South, and whom do they 
 most believe in ; their friends who have a home influence with them, or 
 these scalawags who lie to them under the guise of humanity ?—A. 
 They do not know that a lie has been told to them yet. 
 
 Q. You mean they do not know that all this talk about Indiana is a 
 lie?—A. No, sir. They have just gone ahead like sheep; three-fifths 
 of them go because others have gone before them, because their friends 
 have gone. 
 
 Q. They have gone because their friends have gone?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they heard from their friends very generally?—A. Most of 
 them have, I believe. 
 
 Q. Their friends have been out there and found it as represented, do 
 you mean ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think that the first batch has generally had a 
 pretty fair time. 
 
 Q. Well, there have been several batches gone; how long does the 
 mail take to go back from there?—A. Several days. 
 
 Q. The last batch went in December, didn’t it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then they have been there long enough to have been heard from ; 
 there has been opportunity for it, has there not ?—A. I do not know, sir, 
 whether they have been heard from or not. 
 
 Q. If these people were ignorant of the truth, and after getting there 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 127 
 
 could not get along any better than iu North Carolina, and were abused 
 there even worse and were uot actually doing better, wouldn’t they write 
 back about it?—A. Yes, sir ; it is supposable that they would. 
 
 Q. Would they have any interest in deceiving their folks at home?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wouldn’t it be reasonable for them to write home whether they 
 were better off or not; and, if so, to tell their friends to come out there ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; that is reasonable. 
 
 Q. If the exodus continues—and you seem to be apprehensive that it 
 will—if it continues, isn’t it likely it will be upon information from these 
 people of the same class who have been out there and writteu home 
 about it ?—A. It looks reasonable. 
 
 Q. If it be a fact that these men went there under a delusion, expect¬ 
 ing to find a paradise and finding a topfiet, wouldn’t you think they 
 Avould write to their friends that all was not right, and they had better 
 stay where they were?—A. A good many of them have done so, but 
 very few of them can write. 
 
 Q. Don’t it follow that if a few do write home that they are worse 
 off than they were, wouldn’t a large number of them write that they are 
 better?—A. Those letters are not proven yet. I stated that those who 
 went out with the first batch might do so. So might some of them gotten 
 employment and written home. 
 
 Q. Can there be any doubt that if the exodus continues it is because 
 those who have gone there write home to their friends that they are 
 better off* than they were in North Carolina ?—A. All of them do not say 
 so ; there may be exceptions. 
 
 Q. But doesn’t it follow that the exodus would not continue except 
 upon information that those who had already gone were better off* than 
 they were down in North Carolina ?—A. I do not know, sir, that it fol¬ 
 lows. I know one of the most intelligent persons who went in the last 
 batch wrote a letter—my business manager had the paper—iu which he 
 said that they were not well received, and were worse off' than they 
 could possibly beiu North Carolina; I went there to ask for the paper 
 to bring it here to the committee, but he told me he had sent it to Sena¬ 
 tor Voorhees. That is a letter from one of the most intelligent men who 
 went out there. 
 
 Q. You mean that is a letter written by one of those people back to 
 North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it got from North Carolina here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think it would have its effect as far as it could to refute 
 these misstatements ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think any other intelligent colored man would write the 
 same way ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think all of them would ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think they would have any interest iu deceiving those of 
 their friends who remained at home ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But you think that if this exodus continues on such information 
 from these people it would be an argument that most of them write 
 home that they are doing better in Indiana than they were in North 
 Carolina?—A. No, sir. Let me have a chance to answer you. I was 
 going to talk to you of a woman who was in the streets of Alexandria 
 begging money to get back home, and she was coming back from In¬ 
 diana. 
 
 Q,. But I am now asking you about letters received from these people 
 in Indiana. If the exodus continues upon the strength of letters received 
 from those who have gone before, don’t you consider it an argument 
 
128 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS EROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 that they are doing better in Indiana than they did in North Carolina ? 
 —A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. I ask you if it is not reasonable to say that most of the informa¬ 
 tion received is that their condition is better ?—A. Will you let me have 
 a little time to answer*you t 
 
 Q. No, sir; you can say “Yes” or “No”; you answer my questions. 
 
 [The witness objected to answering without opportunity for explain¬ 
 ing his answer.] 
 
 Q. (By Senator Blair.) I want to ask you this question, and if you de¬ 
 sire to make an explanation after answering you have the right to do so: 
 If the exodus continues on the information of those who have been there 
 and seen the country, if it continues upon such information, isn’t it a 
 proof that the condition of the colored man is better than in North 
 Carolina?—x\. If they have received this information it would tend in 
 that direction. If it continues on such information it would seem to be 
 all right. My opinion is that these people have not received this infor¬ 
 mation, but are following each other like sheep. While you see these 
 .statements made in newspapers about their condition, they are not all 
 of them true. I have been abused for talking about what I have read 
 in Democratic newspapers, but if you will look in those papers you will 
 hud letters giving a different view of their condition there. Not more 
 than two weeks ago a colored woman was right here in Alexandria in 
 the streets who had been fooled away from home, and she had walked 
 back, and was seeking to borrow money to get back home. A good 
 many of them have gone out there and are going to be kept out there ; 
 I do not know what for, but they will be kept there I am satisfied, and 
 will be induced to make good reports of their condition. 
 
 Q. Are you going to answer my question ? I ask you if you thought 
 it was going to continue?—A. No, sir; not at all. 
 
 Q. You say the Democratic papers published these statements, and 
 that the Republican and colored papers in the South are doing the 
 same?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you state whether you were ever in Indiana ? Just answer 
 “ yes” or “ no.”—A. I never was. 
 
 Q. Do you know what an ordinary hand, from your own personal 
 knowledge, can get for a day’s work in that State?—A. I do not know 
 myself. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about it ?—A. I know there are more tramps 
 in Indiana than there are in all the South. 
 
 Q. How do you know it ?—A. I know it from the newspapers. 
 
 Q. I am not asking you for defamatory articles against the State of 
 Indiana. Ido not want you to answer anything more than what I ask 
 you for. Do you know the amount of wages paid to laborers in Indi¬ 
 ana ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. How do you know they do not get a dollar or a dollar and a half 
 a d'ay?—A. I do not know it. 
 
 Q. You do not know but that this information that these men have 
 received is correct?—A. I do not know it; but I do not believe ir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you believe that they can get from sixty cents to a dollar a 
 day for labor ?—A. Do you mean all of them ? 
 
 Q. I mean a good average hand.—A. Men ? 
 
 Q. Yes; can’t men get from sixty cents to a dollar a day each ?—A. 
 If they can get employment, I suppose they ean. 
 
 Q. Don’t you believe that they can doit?—A. I have got no belief 
 about it. 
 
 Q. Then have you any information to the contrary ?—A. No, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES, 
 
 129 
 
 Q. Why, then, do you denounce this movement if you have no belief 
 about it, and don’t know but that they are better off in Indiana than in 
 North Carolina, ?—A. I do not think any man ought to leave one place 
 and go to another when he is doing well and cannot better himself by 
 goiug. 
 
 Q. But you say you do not know that he is not bettering himself. 
 You say you have no belief on it?—A. I said I have no belief about 
 the wages they are receiving. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know but that they are as well off generally, ex¬ 
 cept as to wages in Indiana, as iu North Carolina?—A. Well, sir, if 
 they are not more than just as well off, I would oppose the movement. 
 
 Q. Do you believe they have got as good a chance to go to school in 
 Indiana as in North Carolina ?—A. I do not believe they have got any 
 better. 
 
 Q. Y r ou believe they can get six months’ schooling in Indiana; six 
 months is better than three, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If they can get six months in Indiana and only get three in North 
 Carolina—if that is a fact, are they not better off ?—A. Y r es, sir ; in that 
 regard, if that is a fact. 
 
 Q. You do not know but that is a fact?—A. I do. 
 
 Q. How do you know it?—A. I know in the country you have three 
 four months’ schooling, and in the cities six and eight months. 
 
 Q. How do you know it if you have never been in Indiana ?—A. Be¬ 
 cause I lived in Ohio, right adjoining it, and I know sonu thing about it. 
 
 Q. Don’t you believe that the chance for schooling is better in In¬ 
 diana than it is in North Carolina?—A. I think the chances in North 
 Carolina are equaled but not surpassed in Indiana or elsewhere. 
 
 Q. You think, then, in the matter of schooling they are as well off in 
 Indiana as in North Carolina ?—A. I believe they are at present. 
 
 Q. At present? What do you mean by that?—A. Yes, sir; I say at 
 present, because I believe they will have as good schools and as many of 
 them after a year or two in North Carolina as they would get anywhere 
 iu the North. 
 
 Q. You do not know, you say, what wages they are getting?—A. 
 No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you believe they are getting better wages than they do in 
 North Carolina?—A. I do not know that they are at present. 
 
 Q. I take it the fact is that you do not know very much about * 
 how they are situated in Indiana, and cannot give any better basis for 
 your opinion than your general guess-work and impression.—A. I 
 would not oppose it, except with good reason for it. 
 
 Q. This paper, the Argus, is your paper, is it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In this issue of December 6th, 1879, I find the following: 
 
 “Capt. O. S. B. Wall deserves great credit for his untiring energy and 
 interest in behalf of the fleeing emigrants from the Southern States. 
 The captain has worked hard for the past three or four months, iu get¬ 
 ting transportation for those who have come here from the Southern 
 States. We have a high opinion of Captain Wall, and at some future 
 time we propose to have more to say about him. He is a public bene¬ 
 factor.” 
 
 Witness. Well, I agree to that. He helped them after they got 
 here. I would have done the same myself, if I had had any money. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say against what has been actually done by 
 the Emigrant Aid Society ?—A. I do not know anything against the 
 society. 
 
 9 EX 
 
130 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You believe the purpose for which it was organized to be a good 
 one ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it has adhered closely to the original purpose T—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In short, you believe it is a good society ?—A. So far as its object 
 is concerned. 1 drew up its constitution, and they only formed another 
 one last week. The object of the society was to help men fleeing from 
 oppression. 
 
 Q. I did not ask *you its object, or who drew up its constitution. I 
 asked you if the acts of the society—what it has done—have not been 
 of a worthy character; non-political, and such as you approve of ?—A. 
 So far as I know, yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Vance : 
 
 Q. Mr. Otey, as a North Carolinian, I have been gratified to hear how 
 you speak of that State. You have, however, made one statement that 
 you will perhaps correct when your attention is directed to it: you 
 made it laughingly, and probably did not mean exactly what you said. 
 I refer to your statement that the law for confining men guilty of lar¬ 
 ceny in the penitentiary was made for the purpose of disfranchising 
 colored men. Now I ask you, was not the change in the old la w, doing 
 away with the whipping-post and abolishing corporal punishment, made 
 in 18G8 by the Republican party ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And was not the constitution, abolishing all corporal punishment 
 and substituting imprisonment instead, made by the Republican party 
 when the State was readmitted to the Union 9 ?—A. Yes, sir. But the 
 law making felony out of a petty crime was made by the Democratic 
 party—by a Democratic legislature. 
 
 Q. It was always a felony in North Carolina, under the common law, 
 to steal, was it not ?—A. I know that it was always a felony to steal; 
 but it was not always the law to put them into the penitentiary for steal¬ 
 ing every little thing. In former times they would hang a man for 
 stealing a horse, or a mule, and whip him for stealing a hog. 
 
 Q. Did not conviction of felony in old times disqualify a man for citi¬ 
 zenship?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And when a man was whipped, did not that disqualify a man for 
 citizenship?—A. Yes, sir; but they"were never whipped; I mean, free 
 men, who had a right to vote, were not; of course slaves were.. But a 
 ' man, if he stole a mule, was put in jail for so long a time; and if he 
 stole two mules, he was hung. 
 
 Q. For the second offense, t \ou mean ?—A. Yes; for the second offense 
 he was hung. But now they send him to the penitentiary if he steals a 
 chicken—the same as they do in Virginia. And I do honestly believe 
 that that law was made for the purpose of disfranchising colored men. 
 
 Q. Do you think the men who legislated upon the subject, the men 
 who made that law, had that object in view ?—A. I don’t know whether 
 they did or not, but it looks very much like it. I know I went through 
 the penitentiary, only a short time ago, and I saw a great many white 
 men there, and only a few colored men. 
 
 By Mr. Blair: v 
 
 Q. You say you went through the penitentiary ?—A. Yes, sir; I was 
 not there as a convict. 
 
 Q. 1 did not mean to insinuate anything of the kind. You say you 
 saw a large number of white men in the penitentiary, and but few col¬ 
 ored men?—A. Yes, sir; and 1 was going on to explain how it hap¬ 
 pened. 1 saw more white men in the penitentiary th§n colored men, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 131 
 
 not because there were not so many white men there, but because the 
 colored men were hired out to the railroad companies. ^ 
 
 Q. You-say that, in your belief, this law was made on purpose to dis¬ 
 franchise colored men?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Explain how it produces that result; what is done under it?—A. 
 Well, suppose a man steals a chicken ; he is brought up before the police 
 court, and his case is sent to the grand jury ; he is there indicted ; he 
 goes before the court and is tried and convicted to the penitentiary ; he 
 goes there, and serves his term out. If he serves his term out, and is 
 not pardoned by the governor, he is disfranchised and cannot vote again 
 while he lives. Only, black men look so much alike that you caret tell 
 the difference, so they do vote, any way. 
 
 Q. But yon believe the law was passed for the purpose of disfran¬ 
 chising the colored men ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What about the hiring out of colored men on the railroads?—A. It 
 is the same there that it is in Virginia ; the colored men in the peniten¬ 
 tiary are hired out to work on the railroads, the white men are not. 
 The white men stay in the shops, and make shoes, and do other indoor 
 work. The colored men, the few who are kept at the penitentiary, are 
 kept cutting stone to build the walls for their imprisonment, or some 
 work of that sort. But the most of them are sent out to work for the 
 railroad companies. A great many are sent out to the Western North. 
 Carolina Railroad. 
 
 Q. Is not this also a fact, that the white convicts in the penitentiary 
 are there for very much more serious crimes, as a general rule, than the 
 colored ones ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A colored man, you say, is sent to prison for stealing a chicken?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are sent there for very slight matters; is not that a pretty 
 common thing?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it with white men? Would they be sent to the peniten¬ 
 tiary for stealing a chicken?—A. Yes, sir; if prosecuted. But they 
 generally don’t steal such small amounts. 
 
 Q. They generally steal larger amounts?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the hardship comes in that way ?—A. Yes, sir; that is it. 
 
 Q. The negro, as a race, is guilty of far less heinous offenses than 
 white men, and yet suffers the same severity of punishment ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. If a colored man steals a chicken he is put in the penitentiary for 
 a year; if a whit,e man steals a horse, he goes to the penitentiary for 
 five or ten years; if he steals two horses—that is, for the second offense— 
 he is put in tin re for life. 
 
 Q Do you know of any instance where white men have been disfran¬ 
 chised on account of having committed petty offenses?—A. I done 
 associate with ex-convicts, and don’t know anything about it. 
 
 Q. 1 did not mean to intimate that you were a convict; but you 
 spoke a few minutes ago about going through a penitentiary and seeing 
 a good many white men there, and but few colored men. From what 
 you learned there, or in any other way, do you know of any white men 
 ever being disfranchised for petty offenses ?—A. I could not tell 
 whether those white men were disfranchised or not, for I didn’t know 
 anything about it. 
 
 Mr. Vance. The conviction of felony itself disfranchises the convict. 
 
 The Witness. Conviction to the penitentiary disqualifies a man 
 from voting, unless he is pardoned out by the governor two days or a 
 month before the.expiratiou of his term. 
 
 Mr. Vance. But his right of franchise can be restored. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 132 
 
 The Witness. Yes; by an act of the legislature. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any colored man who had been convicted to the 
 penitentiary?—A. No; nor white man either. 
 
 By Mr. YAnce : 
 
 Q. Have you said anything yet to show that the law of which we are 
 speaking was passed for the purpose of disfranchising colored men ?— 
 A. I still hold that the law was made to disfranchise colored men. 
 
 Q. I do not see how you have yet made it appear?—A. It appears 
 clear enough to me. Bor instance—I hate to say it, and I say it to my 
 own shame, and that ot my own people, but these laws against petty 
 larceny operates more hardly against colored people than white people 
 everywhere, and especially in the South. Many of the colored people 
 are very poor and have nothing to live on. They have been brought up 
 in such a way that they are almost taught to steal, as well as compelled 
 to by their poverty. But if they do steal anything, however small, 
 they are sent to the penitentiary, and that disfranchises them. And I 
 believe—of course I do not know, but I believe —that the law was 
 passed for the purpose of disfranchising us. 
 
 Q. Do you not think it may have been done also with an idea of ap¬ 
 propriating the avails of their labors, for very slight offenses in some 
 eases'?— a. 1 don’t know how that might be. 
 
 Q. Are these men a source of profit to the railroads?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the railroads pay the State for the labor ot the men ?—A. The 
 State is paid for their labor, but not more than their support amounts to. 
 
 Q. Then the railroad gets the benefit of their labor?—A. I do not 
 know about that. 1 kuow the State has to pay for the guards who guard 
 them while working on the railroad. 
 
 By Mr. VANCE: 
 
 Q. You intimated in your testimony that white men are not sent to 
 work on railroads ?—A. I may have said that, but in fact I do not know; 
 I meant to say that I never saw any, and never knew of any being sent 
 out. I kuow they said there were three hundred and fifty colored men 
 in that penitentiary, and I did not see more than ten colored men there; 
 but I saw about a hundred white men there making shoes, clothing, 
 &c.; and the man who took me around said—and he was a white man 
 and a Democrat—he said that the reason of it was that the white men 
 were hired out to work on the railroads. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any complaints of ill-treatment of men on the rail¬ 
 roads or public works ?—A. No, sir. On the 1st of January I went on an 
 excursion, and saw people from all parts of the State, from Goldsboro 
 and Weldon and Greensboro and other places ; I talked with the people 
 generally, and they made no complaint whatever. The only thing they 
 said to me was they begged me to come and live there; and I saw such 
 prosperity that I had a great desire to settle there, and if I hadn’t been 
 married I think I would have staid there. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that in the constitution, which provides that 
 convict labor may be hired out, there is also a provision that they shall 
 be superintended by a responsible State official and are under his con¬ 
 stant supervision, so that they are not in the hands of irresponsible 
 contractors ?—A. I know that the men who guard them are paid by the 
 State government. 
 
 Q. They are simply working for the railroads under the supervision 
 of a State official ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 133 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JULIUS A. BONITZ. 
 
 Julius A. Bonitz sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance: 
 
 Question. State your residence aud occupation ?—Answer. I reside at 
 Goldsboro; I am editor and proprietor of the Goldsboro Messenger, and 
 have been for the past thirteen years. 
 
 Q. Goldsboro is about the center of this movement of the colored peo¬ 
 ple to the West?—A. Yes, sir; a large number of 1 exodusters 7 have 
 left mv section. 
 
 Q. You are acquainted with the region from which they come, the 
 circumstances aud condition of the people, &c.?—A. Yes, sir; intimately. 
 
 Q. Be good enough to state to the committee your impressions, and 
 the facts upon which they are based, as to the reason of the exodus—■ 
 whether it arises from natural laws and causes of migration, or from 
 political oppression, or from the injustice of their white fellow-citizens, 
 or what?—A. It is difficult to get at the reasons. I see no reason why 
 they should leave North Carolina. There is certainly no political op¬ 
 pression there. My paper, I believe, has the largest circulation of any 
 in the district; I may safely say it is considered the leading paper in 
 the district; iu fact, the leading paper in East North Carolina—that is, 
 east of Raleigh. I have endeavored in vain to discover any reason why 
 the colored people should leave North Carolina. Furtheimore, I find, 
 so far as my acquaintance goes, that those who have left my section are 
 of a roving, migratory disposition. They look upon the prospect of a 
 journey North as a grand excursion. If the movement had continued 
 as it began, several thousands, perhaps, would have left, where only a 
 hundred has goue now. It has had a very demoralizing effect upon the 
 laborer in our section. Just at present there is a lull in the exodus; hun¬ 
 dreds, perhaps thousands, are uneasy, undecided, unsettled. A very 
 little would induce them to go. The return of a few who left to go to 
 Indiana has caused a lull, and it remains to be seen what the future will be. 
 
 As I said, there is no apparent cause for their going. I think Mr. 
 Otey’s evidence is correct aud Mr. O’Hara’s evidence is correct when 
 they say that, so far as the condition of the colored people are concerned, 
 there is no oppression in North Carolina. It is true that in my section, 
 and throughout the eastern portion of the State, only perhaps one-tenth 
 of the white population are Republicans, and the other nine-tenths are 
 Democrats, while the colored population are Republicans, solid. At 
 the same time, the colored men are allowed to vote as they please, to 
 work for what wages they choose and for whom they please, and to do 
 as they please—of course always within the laws of the State. 
 
 The first intimation I had of this exodus, some meetings were got up 
 in our section and in Lenoir County, under the auspices of Sam Perry 
 and Williams—I do not remember Williams’ first name or initials. They 
 were holding meetings in that section for some months. These meetings 
 began in the spring, and continued during the summer. At these meet¬ 
 ings incendiary speeches were made; the unpleasant features of life in 
 North Carolina were dwelt upon and exaggerated, while Indiana was 
 pictured as a perfect paradise for colored men. Letters were read from 
 Indiana, stating that the colored people there were treated just like 
 white men ; that colored laborers were permitted to sit at the same table 
 with their white employers; that their children were allowed to go to 
 school with the children of white men. They were told that they could 
 get from a dollar to a dollar and a half a day for their labor. I have 
 
134 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 been informed that this was what was told the colored men at these 
 meetings; I never attended one of them myself. I spunk irom common 
 report. I have seen papers printed, and have myself priuted circulars 
 upon the subject; 1 have printed notices for Taylor Evans, calling these 
 meetings; I did all his printing at one time. A number of societies 
 were organized in the interest's of this exodus movement. There was 
 one organization at Stony Greek; another at Bear Greek; and other 
 organizations at other places in the county. 1 am informed that the 
 Stony Greek organization had a membership of over a thousand. 
 
 I do not know so much about the organizations in Lenoir County. I 
 know nothing of them except by report. 
 
 It seems that these men, at least Perry, required the colored people to 
 pay a fee, and I think he visited Indiana ; at least he visited Washing¬ 
 ton ; whether he visited Indiana or not 1 do not know, but I know he 
 came here. On his return to La Grange, he of course did everything in 
 his power to influence the colored people to go to Indiana. In ope 
 township there was scarcely a colored man left in the township, or 
 woman, or child, but what was talking about going, and anxious to go, 
 or at least contemplated going. I think that inducements were offered 
 them ; 1 was told they were promised that their fare would be paid ; at 
 any rate, that it was desirable that they should pay their fare as far as 
 Washington Gity, and on arriving here their expenses would be paid to 
 Indiana, and on arriving in Indiana they would be supplied with homes 
 and labor. 
 
 Bv Mr. Vance : 
 
 I/ 
 
 Q. Have you been present at any of these meetings, or conversed 
 w ith anybody in regard to what occurred at them y —A. I have not been 
 at any of the meetings, but 1 have seen colored men w ho have been 
 there; I have seen one colored man that quit the meetings, because he 
 did not agree with the spirit of the organization. 
 
 Q. Explain the condition of the colored people in your section, the 
 average price of labor, and the opportunities of the colored men to do 
 well.—A. The condition of the colored population in our section has 
 greatly improved, both morally and otherwise. I will speak first of 
 educational facilities. They are as good as those of the whites. I speak 
 of their free schools ; of course the whites have better educational facili¬ 
 ties in the shape of colleges, though the colored people have a college 
 at Raleigh. I am chairman of the school committee in my own town 
 and township, having in my charge both the white and colored schools, 
 and have been for several years. I have made arrangements with a 
 man named Jones, who represents a society of Friends in the North—I 
 think it is called the Freedmen’s Aid Society—who supplies one teacher. 
 I have employed three excellent teachers, all colored, and we have a 
 school in operation eight or ten months in the year, in w hich between 
 two hundred and three hundred children are taught. I visited the 
 
 school last week, and then found that they had an average attendance 
 of tw r o hundred and sixty six. There are four teachers, three of whom 
 are employed by my committee and paid by the State. The money 7 that 
 is necessary to keep the school in, operation is raised by taxation. By 
 the constitution of the State seventy-live per cent, of the poll-tax goes 
 to the school fund, and the schools are principally supported from the 
 poll-tax. For instance, in Wayne Gounty last year -$2,153.46 was raised 
 for school purposes. In my own county I have made an estimate that 
 about two thousand dollars in all are raised on taxes for school pur¬ 
 poses from the colored people, while the expense of the county for car- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 135 
 
 rying on the colored schools is about $3,300, thirteen hundred dollars of 
 which, therefore, must of course be paid from the taxes upon the white 
 people. The Democratic legislature has established a normal school at 
 Fayetteville, with an annual appropriation of two thousand dollars, 
 which receives assistance from the public fund and other sources. The 
 object of this school is to qualify colored people to become teachers of 
 their race. This school will receive, I am confident, the best encour¬ 
 agement from the white people of the State, the Democratic party iu 
 particular. 
 
 I am also director of the asylum for the colored insane of the State; 
 in fact, I am one of the building committee, and secretary of the board 
 of directors. We are now building at Goldsborough, and will have 
 ready for occupancy by the middle of March, the main part and one 
 wing of a building that, when built, will cost between sixty and seventy 
 thousand dollars. The appropriation was made at your suggestion, 
 governor [referring to Governor Vance]. We have already expended, 
 including contracts given out, about forty-three thousand dollars. 
 When this portion of the building is completed, there will be accommo¬ 
 dations for about a hundred and twenty-five insane persons—colored 
 insane, of course; no others are admitted. As soon as the legislature 
 meets again another appropriation of twenty thousand dollars will he 
 made for the completion of the other wing. The building is a creditable 
 three story building. We have now completed, besides the offices, re¬ 
 ception rooms, &c., one hundred and twenty five rooms or wards for 
 patients. The building is supplied with all the modern improvements. 
 The heating apparatus, laundry, and water fixtures cost eleven thou¬ 
 sand dollars. We congratulate ourselves that we made our contract 
 when building material was remarkably cheap; the portion that we are 
 to have built for forty-three thousand dollars, if the contract were to be 
 made now, could not be built for less than sixty thousand dollars. It 
 is estimated that we have two hundred insane in the State. 
 
 So much for educational facilities and the comfort of the unfortu¬ 
 nate. 
 
 Q. Give the committee an idea of the average price of wages, what 
 colored people can make by cropping for themselves on shares, &c. !— 
 A. Well, governor, that, as you know, depends very much on the in¬ 
 dustry and capacity of the laborer, among black men as wed as white. 
 Tlie wages for ordinary farm labor is from seven to ten dollars a month ; 
 some excellent hands receive twelve dollars a montip 
 
 Q. With rations found!—A. Yes; with rations found—supplies for 
 a week’s support—and a house and fire wood furnished. I have a col¬ 
 ored man in my employ whom I have paid ten dollars a mouth for the 
 past twelve or thirteen years. Colored mechanics find no trouble iu 
 getting employment ; and we have some excellent mechanics among 
 the colored people—carpenters, blacksmiths, shoemakers, bricklayers, 
 buggy-makers—in fact, almost every trade is represented. 
 
 Q. What are about the average wages of these mechanics!—A. 
 Well, they can make from a dollar to a dollar and a half a day; good 
 hand find no difficulty in getting a dollar and a half a day. I have 
 paid that myself, again and again. 
 
 Q. Is there any discrimination shown in favor of white mechanics, 
 as against colored ones!—A. Not the least; if any discrimination is 
 shown it is the other way. Indeed, I have heard complaints on the 
 part of white mechanics that colored mechanics could get work when 
 they could not. A good deal of jealousy on this point has been man¬ 
 ifested on the part of some. Being the editor of a newspaper, such 
 
136 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 things come to me more frequently than they would to the most of per¬ 
 sons. 1 have known white mechanics, who were Democrats, complain 
 because Democrats employed colored mechanics, who did not vote the 
 Democratic ticket, in preference to them. 
 
 Q. Is there any discrimination in the matter of renting lands ?—A. 
 None whatever. I speak advisedly and knowingly when I say that the 
 majority of planters prefer reliable colored tenants to the ordinary white 
 tenants. So far as there is any discrimination it is in favor of the col¬ 
 ored man and against the white man. Of course, colored men who are 
 known to be industrious and good managers are preferred to the lazy 
 and negligent ones ; but the same thing is true of -white men. 
 
 Q. What are the usual terms upon which land is rented ?—A. One- 
 fourth is the usual rent—the landlord gets one-fourth, I mean. 
 
 Q. Who furnishes supplies?—A. The landlord furnishes supplies, 
 and horses or mules, &c., with which to put in the crop and carry on 
 the work. The supplies are charged, and of course deducted from the 
 crop. If he has sufficient means to make his own crop, of course all 
 that he raises, except the one-fourth for rent, is his. 
 
 Q. And his protits depend not only upon his industry, but upon his 
 extravagance in the use of his supplies while the crop is growing l —A. 
 Yes, sir. I know a colored man living near Mount Olive, twelve miles 
 from Goldsborough, who is the owner of three hundred and sixteen acres of 
 laud. His name is Calvin Simmons. He has, within the last year or two, 
 finished paying for the plantation. He bought it some years ago, on long 
 time, at the rate of ten dollars an acre. He paid for it himself—and 
 his boys—with what they raised off from it. More than that, I have got 
 it from his own mouth that he cleared, within the last year, nearly five 
 hundred dollars on his crop. I don’t remember the exact number of 
 years it has taken him to pay for it. I know a number of instances in 
 which colored men have bought lands upon the same terms, and paid 
 for them, and now have them for homes of their own. In my own town 
 there is a man named William Bernard, who owns a tine house and lot. 
 Not long ago I offered him a thousand dollars for his place ; but he re¬ 
 fused it, on the ground that he did not need the money. It is well 
 located, a valuable piece, and increasing in value every \ear. 
 
 Q In your observation, and extensive acquaintance, is there anything 
 in the laws of the State, or in the business customs of the community, 
 or in the practices and methods of labor, or anything of that kind, to 
 prevent the colored men doing as well as the white men in North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. No discrimination has come within my knowledge, if tliere 
 is any discrimination it is in behalf of the colored people. 
 
 Q. You say that the landlords as a general rule prefer good colored 
 tenants?—A. Yes, sir; there is no doubt of that. 
 
 Q. White men do not get any better terms than colored men ?—A. 
 No, sir; none at all. 
 
 Q. And sometimes white mechanics have complained that colored 
 mechanics are given the preference?—A. Yes. sir. Being editor of a 
 paper, and chairman of the Democratic county central committee at 
 the same time, I have heard this complaint frequently. They have 
 come to me with reproaches, saying, “ Why, 1 vote the Democratic 
 ticket, and here is a negro who votes the Republican ticket, and he can 
 get work of you Democrats when 1 cannot.” 
 
 Q. Is there any feeling of hostility on the part of white men toward 
 the colored men ; any disposition to oppress or u bulldoze” them, as it 
 is sometimes called —A. I have not heard of anything of the sort. I 
 have been in political life for fourteen years, and within that time I have 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 137 
 
 not hoard of any disturbance. There has been no social disturbance in 
 my section. I have heard, of course, of some prejudice amongst the 
 lower classes—the same as you will hud in the north. But so far as in¬ 
 telligent white men are concerned, they all feel kindly toward the colored 
 man, and are disposed to help and encourage him. In saying this I 
 speak knowingly. So far as “ bulldoziug 77 is concerned, L do not know 
 whether I apprehend your meaning. 
 
 Q. I mean, for instance, whether you kuow of landlords using their 
 power as landlords to compel their tenants to vote as they desire them 
 to; or white men in any way compelling or trying to compel colored 
 men to vote their ticket?—A. If there is any bulldozing it is on the 
 part of colored men. 
 
 Q. In what way?—A. I have known cases where colored men have 
 compelled other colored men to vote the Republican ticket, contrary to 
 their wishes; that is, have brought compulsory influence to bear upon 
 them sufficient to accomplish that purpose. I have known instances 
 where colored men have said to me, voluntarily, that they were going 
 to vote the Democratic ticket; but when election day came they turned 
 around and voted the Republican ticket. Some of these men were in 
 my employ. They would come to me, unsolicited, and tell me they were 
 going to vote the Democratic ticket, but on election day would vote the 
 Republican ticket. And the reason they would give was this: These 
 white Republicans have had what they call their “strikers’ 7 out, who 
 have said to these colored men who were about to vote the Democratic 
 ticket, you must not do so; you must vote the Republican ticket. And 
 sometimes his colored associates would say that; or his preacher or his 
 wife. And those two agencies are frequently resorted to to keep the 
 colored men in the Republican party. Tne only bulldozing I know is 
 of that sort. If a colored man were to vote the Democratic ticket he 
 would be ostracized amoug his race, if not actually mobbed; he would 
 be turned out of the church and divorced from his wife. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any unjust discrimination against colored people 
 in the courts?—A. My observation has been considerable in that re¬ 
 spect, as in other matters. I have atteuded the courts of different 
 counties in my part of the State. In my own county I know of no in¬ 
 stance where a colored man has been imposed upon by a white man. 
 Of course, ordinary bar-room fracases and affrays have occurred; but 
 such things occur among the trifling classes of both races everywhere; 
 and yet, we have not had many of these. In fact, in those that we have 
 had, do not understand me to charge the blame upon the colored people 
 any more than upon the white, and perhaps not so much. We have, I 
 am happy to say, a most excellent colored element in my section—peace¬ 
 able and industrious. To show that the colored people are not imposed 
 upon by the whites, I will relate these facts: We have had, within the 
 last thirteen years, eleven or twelve murders in my county. Five white 
 men and one white woman have been killed; the other murders have 
 been among the colored people—that is, colored persons have been 
 killed by colored persons. In those cases where white persons were 
 killed, the murderers were colored persons, or the evidence directly 
 pointed to the murderers being colored men ; but in no single instance 
 in thirteen years has a colored person been killed by a white person. 
 
 Q. Five white men and one white woman have been killed by colored 
 men ?—A. Yes, sir ; some of the murderers have been apprehended, and 
 some have made their escape; but it was known who they were. 
 
 Q. 1 will ask you, while you are upon that point, to relate briefly the cir¬ 
 cumstances connected with the “Worley 77 murder.—A. Tkeonein connee- 
 
138 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 tion with which rape was supposed to he perpetrated—O, yes. The com 
 id unity is really under many obligations to the colored element for their 
 activity in bringing those murderers to justice. It was the most atrocious 
 murder ever committed in our State. The victims consisted of a father, 
 mother, and three infant children. They were tenants in a neighbor¬ 
 hood known as u The Islands,” that had previously been occupied and 
 inhabited altogether by colored people. The land is owned by a Mr. 
 Atkinson, who concluded that he would make a change and settle some 
 white tenants on some of his land, and did so. It seems that on that 
 account some jealousy or hostility arose among, some of the colored ten¬ 
 ants toward these white tenants. That is one report of the origin of 
 the trouble. Another report is that one of these colored men had fre¬ 
 quently made remarks that this man’s wife was a mighty pretty woman, 
 was too good for her husband, and that he certainly must become ac¬ 
 quainted with her. That was the evidence adduced on trial. The mur¬ 
 der was committed some time in the night; the first that was known of 
 the murder was that the husband and wife were found next morning, 
 both murdered. The three children—one a child four years old, the 
 next not quite three, and the other an infant a few months old—were 
 lelt during a cold February night, without any tire, in a lonely log 
 cabin, with the father outside and the mother right at the back steps, 
 both with their brains knocked out and their corpses terribly mangled ; 
 there was none to guard the children except a faithful watch-dog. For 
 a long time it was impossible to obtain any clue to the murderers; it 
 was a perfect mystery what could have been the inducement or provo¬ 
 cation to such a terrible crime. A post-mortem examination showed 
 that Mrs. Worley had been outraged before she was killed. Of course 
 the entire community was terribly excited, and most justly so. The 
 murdered persons had been peaceable, unoffending citizens, in the hum¬ 
 blest walks of life, as poor as they could possibly be; so the murder 
 could not have been committed for the purpose of obtaining any money 
 from them. Every effort was made to ferret out the guilty parties. 
 The colored people, no doubt, felt their responsibility in the matter— 
 the better class in that section ; and they requested and urged permis¬ 
 sion to organize a jury of inquest. This was readily granted by the 
 sheriff; they were permitted to deputize other sheriffs, and to have all 
 the facilities that a regularly organized court of inquest could have had. 
 Alter working for a week or so they finally succeeded in getting a clue 
 to what they supposed would lead to the apprehension of the guilty 
 ones. The rest of the story was given in evidence when the case came 
 to trial. A colored man named Jerry Cox was arrested on suspicion. 
 At first he denied that he had had anything to do with it or knew any¬ 
 thing about it; but when he saw that the net of circumstantial evidence 
 which was woven around him seemed complete, these colored men 
 finally succeeded in getting a confession from him ; and the community 
 is very thankful to these colored men that the guilty parties, this Jerry 
 Cox. and three besides him, were finally brought to justice. They were 
 tried, convicted, and hanged. 
 
 Q. Through the instrumentality of these colored men?—A. Yes, sir. 
 We never would have succeeded in getting the evidence to convict the 
 murderers but for them. 
 
 So far as the courts of justice are concerned, I think Mr. O’Hara’s 
 statements are correct in most particulars. There is no discrimination 
 made between white men and colored men in our courts of justice. 
 The great trouble seems to be to get reliable evidence before the jury; 
 but that trouble arises without regard to the color of the party impli- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 139 
 
 cated or on trial. The majority of colored witnesses do not seem to 
 understand the nature of an oath; that is the great difficulty in our 
 courts. Of course that is the kind of witnesses that are more generally 
 put upon the stand by this class of criminals. Respectable colored men 
 seldom, if ever, have any business in the courts. Rut in regard to 
 color, I have known of no discrimination in our courts. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any discrimination in the infliction of punishment 
 by judges?—A. I have not. If there is any discrimination, it is in 
 favor of the colored men. I remember one striking instance of this. 
 Two white men, it seems, had left Greenville to go home; they resided 
 some distance in the country. They were evidently in liquor. On their 
 way home they overtook or were overtaken by a couple of colored men. 
 They got into a cutting scrape, and had a terrible row. Both were in¬ 
 dicted for the affray. Our present governor, Mr. Jarvis, was attorney 
 for the colored men; while Major Latham was the attorney for the 
 white men. The white men were put on the staud, and swore that as 
 they were going home, two colored men jumped out of an ambush and 
 assaulted them. The colored men were put on the stand and swore to 
 exactly the opposite; that they were on their way home, when the white 
 men came up behind them and assaulted them. Both sides were ably 
 defended. When the case was given to the jury, the jury acquitted t lie 
 colored men and convicted the white men. The judge, a Democratic 
 judge, then ordered that an indictment be found against the white men 
 for pejjury, on the testimony of the colored men. 
 
 I could cite numbers of instances of that kind. There was the case 
 where William Bernard, a leading and influential Republican, who had 
 made himself obnoxious to leading Democrats, but who had never been 
 molested. He was charged with highway robbery upon an old man; 
 the same old man died last week, seventy-nine years old. He Avas 
 seventy-six years old at the time of the robbery—that was three years 
 ago The evidence against Bernard was the strongest evidence 1 ever 
 heard. I published it at the time. Both white and black, that heard 
 the evidence, expected his conviction. The jury consisted of white 
 men; there was not a single colored man on the jury. I cite this to 
 show that no political considerations enter our courts; for he was a 
 leading obnoxious Republican; one of these u strikers,’ 7 ready to do 
 any dirty work for' the party that was needed. Yet, when the jury 
 rendered their verdict, he was acquitted. They had their doubts, and 
 they gave him the benefit of the doubt.. 
 
 Another case was that where a colored man named Lewis Taylor was 
 chargvd with killing Calvin Ethridge, a white man. There was no 
 doubt that he had beeu hired to do the killing by two white men ; in 
 fact, the two white men employed counsel for him when his case came 
 to trial. Intelligent white men on the other side employed counsel to 
 prosecute Taylor. The case was removed from Wayne County to Duplin 
 County—one of the strongest Democratic counties in the State. He was 
 tried before a white jury, and the jury acquitted him. Here, again, 
 there was a doubt in the minds of the jury, and the accused, although 
 a colored man, was given the benefit of the doubt. Yet everybody to¬ 
 day believes him guilty. That case cost the county more than twenty- 
 five hundred dollars. 
 
 My friend Otey, here, of course speaks only from report when he says 
 that white men who have been sentenced to the penitentiary are not 
 sent out to work on the railroads. Now, 1 know of white men who have 
 been sent to work on the railroads; I know of such a case in my own 
 county. A white man named Nuchin was sentenced to the penitentiary 
 
140 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 for five years, for stealing a pistol from a colored man named Winn. 
 His wife was a very pitiable object, certainly deserving of charity; and 
 I interested myself in his behalf, and succeeded in getting up a strong 
 petition for his pardon ; and the governor, with some reluctance, par¬ 
 doned him. While he was in the penitentiary he was sent out to work 
 on the Atkinson and Raleigh Railroad. He was the only white man 
 pardoned out of the penitentiary by our governor here [indicating 
 Governor Vance]; while three or more colored men were pardoned out 
 by him, before the expiration of their term. I think you pardoned only 
 one white man, governor 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Vance. Yes, sir; and yet I think I was accused of being a little 
 too liberaj.—A. Yes, sir; the principal complaint against you on that 
 score was in the case of Stephen Darden, who was sentenced to be 
 hanged for burglary and attempt at rape. The governor commuted his 
 punishment to imprisonment for life. 
 
 I wish to express, with your permission, the feeling of our people 
 with regard to this exodus. Our white people, regardless of politics, 
 are opposed to it. It is resulting in great demoralization to our labor. 
 The colored man is the best laborer we can possibly tiiul on the face of 
 the earth. 
 
 Q. What is the opinion of the more intelligent and well disposed col¬ 
 ored men ?—A. They, too, are opposed to it; I do not know of a leading 
 colored man in my county that is working in the interest of this ex¬ 
 odus movement. I cannot account for it. No intelligent man, of either 
 race, can account for such a disposition to leave takiug possession of 
 our people. Leading white men, whether Democrats or Republicans, 
 are opposed to the movemeut. Some Democrats, for political reasons, 
 would be glad to have the colored people go; but those who are disin¬ 
 terested, of all parties, regard the exodus as a calamity to both whites 
 and blacks, and advise the colored people not to go. 
 
 Q. You mentioned that the exodus had a demoralizing effect upon 
 labor in your section ; explain in what way.—A. 1 will give you one 
 instance out of many that will show you. Needham Smith, a well-to do 
 farmer near Goldsboro*, had a contract or agreement with three colored 
 men to crop on his land this year. He supposed that he had succeeded 
 in gettiug reliable and industrious tenants for the year. To my own 
 knowledge he came to town and purchased a couple of mules for the 
 parties, and implements with which to work the farm ; for these they 
 were to pay him, on time ; he supposed that all was settled between him 
 and the parties; they seemed to be perfectly satisfied. But on Saturday 
 week, or Sunday week, I forget exactly which, they came and rather 
 surprised him by telling him that they had made up their minds to go 
 to Indiana, and requesting him to take back his mules and other 
 things. Of course that caused him considerable expense and embarrass¬ 
 ment. If he engages other men to work his land, there is no knowing 
 when they will conclude to go to Indiana, too. That is an illustration 
 of the demoralized condition into which our labor system has been 
 thrown by this exodus movement. Our farmers don’t know what to 
 do—what preparations to make. There seems to be a lull in the exodus 
 there—right in that vicinity—-just now; but if it should receive a new 
 start—a fresh impetus—there is no telling to what extent it might go 
 before it would cease, or in what shape it might leave us. And it seems 
 that no intelligent white men or colored men, Republicans or Democrats, 
 have any means to stop it. 
 
 Q. Let me ask you in relation to the credulity of the colored people ; 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 141 
 
 are they not suspicious of white people, as to what they may say on 
 political subjects?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And is not that suspicion carried into all the business of life?— 
 A. Yes, sir. I think the greatest mistake that has been made by the 
 Democrats of North Carolina in regard to the exodus lias been this: 
 if we had just advised them to go they would not have been so willing 
 to go. We advised them not to go, and they at once suspected that we 
 had some political*purpose in view. Inasmuch as Democrats advised 
 against the exodus, the colored people concluded that there must be 
 something good in it. 
 
 Q. Are they not credulously disposed and much more prone to listen 
 to a stranger, who comes to them talking philanthropy, than to believe 
 men with whom they are acquainted?—A. Yes, sir. I have seen some 
 of the papers circulated by this Taylor Evans. He lives in my town, 
 and, as I said before, I did his printing for him for awhile. He has been 
 for years a leader of the colored Republicans in our town and neighbor¬ 
 hood. There are better men—a hundred times better men—among our 
 colored people. But he is rather intelligent, shrewd, active, a good 
 worker, and so manages to retain considerable influence over them. 
 Men who want to be nominated to some petty office give him a suit of 
 clothes or something, and he brings his men into line and does the work. 
 I believe he helped count out my colored friend, Mr. O’Hara, here. 
 
 It seems that this man, Taylor Evans, has succeeded in getting em¬ 
 ployment from what he calls an Emigrant Aid Society. I have printed 
 haudbills for him, calling upon the colored people to meet and consider 
 this exodus business. Meetings were held at various places in the 
 county. At these meetings the people were told that they must leave 
 North Carolina before May. They were told that if the Democrats 
 should elect the next President the colored people would all have to 
 leave North Carolina or go into slavery. All such rascally means were 
 resorted to in order to induce the colored people to leave. 
 
 Q. You have given us the opinion of a large m >j >rity of the Demo¬ 
 cratic party, and of the more intelligent class of the c dored people; 
 what is the opinion of the white leaders of the Republican party in our 
 State—such men as Governor Holden, and Governor Smith, and Colonel 
 Humphrey ?—A. I have conversed with Mr. Smith, and Mr. Humphrey, 
 and Judge Stanton, and in fact with nearly all the Republican leaders 
 of the State, and they express themselves unequivocally as being em¬ 
 phatically opposed to the colored people leaving our State. They hold 
 that there is no occasion for their leaving; that the colored people have 
 it in their own hands to elevate themselves where they are if they see 
 fit to do so, and can make themselves as comfortable in North Carolina 
 as in Indiana or any other State. But somehow they seem to have lost 
 their influence over the class who are leaving. The other day, a short 
 time before starting from home, I met an old darky, sixty-three or sixty- 
 four years old, who was preparing to emigrate. He had been farmiug 
 on the lands of the Wootens, near La Grange. I asked him, “ What 
 are you going to Indiana for, as old as you are?” He answered, “I 
 want to better myself.” I replied, “ Have you not been doing well 
 enough ?” He said, “ I think I can do better in Indiana.” I said, “ How 
 long have you been living on Wooten’s land ?” He said, “About seven 
 years.” I said, “How much land did you have there?” He said he 
 did not know, but I knew, he had about sixteen acres. I said, “Wasn’t 
 it good land?” He said, “l r es.” “And with a good house on it?” 
 “Yes.” “ What rent did you pay ?” I asked. He said, “ I didn’t pay 
 any rent.” “YMu have lived there seven years, and never paid any 
 
142 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 rent?” u Yes.” u And had your fire-wood free?” a Yes.” “And now 
 you want to go to Indiana to do better,” I said. About this time Mr. 
 Wooten came along; he had previously told me the terms upon which 
 the old man was living on his place, and I said to him, u You ought to 
 have given the old man a mule and a wagon, and hired somebody to 
 chop his wood lor him, and possibly he might have staid.” 
 
 The other day—I think last week, Wednesday—a crowd of people 
 left Goldsborough for the North, and at thecars I met the old man. I said 
 to him, u You are making a sad mistake; I think you will regret this 
 day’s work as long as you live, for you are doing better here than you 
 possibly can do in Indiana.” His wife spoke up then and said, u That is 
 exactly what I think about it.” Then the old man said, “ What do they 
 want us to come for then ? They wrote for us to come on. If we can¬ 
 not do better there than here, why do they tell us so?” 
 
 Q. It is stated in a circular issued by the Emigrant Aid Society of 
 this city that the colored people are not allowed to raise vegetables or 
 anything else upon which they can subsist during the season, but are 
 forced to procure their necessary supplies from their landlords at fancy 
 prices. Do 3 7 ou know whether such is the case or not in North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. L know that nothing of the sort is true in North Carolina. I 
 have no garden, as I live in the center of the city, where ground is val¬ 
 uable, and consequently almost entirely occupied by buildings. So I am 
 of necessity compelled to buy vegetables, and I buy my vegetables from 
 colored gardeners, who not only raise all they need for their own con¬ 
 sumption. but all they wish for sale. 
 
 Q. Is there any prohibition at all on colored people keeping vegetable 
 gardens ?—A. None at all. Mr. Otey has spoken of the landlord and 
 tenant svstem of North Carolina. The law in relation to that matter 
 was first passed by a Republican legislature. It is similar to the labor¬ 
 er’s or mechanic’s lien. The laborer or mechanic is protected by his 
 lien. If I employ a mechanic, whether white or colored, to build me a 
 house, he can take a lien on the property. In a similar way the land¬ 
 lord is protected by this landlord and tenant act. It does not affect 
 oppressively the honest man, either white or black. It protects one race 
 as much as' the other. It interferes only with such as wish to cheat their 
 landlords. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. You say you are The editor of a Democratic paper ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged in that occupation ?—A. Thir¬ 
 teen years. 
 
 Q. Are you pretty well acquainted with the colored people of your 
 district ?—A. Very well. 
 
 Q. What is the number of the Congressional district in which you 
 live?—A. The second. 
 
 Q. Are the colored men in that district all Republicans?—A. Yes, 
 sir; except some few; in my own county there are, perhaps, not to 
 exceed fifty colored men who vote the Democratic ticket. 
 
 Q. What is the Republican majority ?—A. I think seven or eight 
 hundred, white and black. 
 
 Q. How long since it has been represented in Congress by a Repub¬ 
 lican ?—A. It has always been represented by a Republican until the 
 present Congress. 
 
 Q. You mean commencing with the 4th of last March ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 since the State was redistricted, and up to the 4th of last March, the 
 district has always been represented by a Republican. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 143 
 
 Q. Wbo is the Representative in the Forty-sixth Congress ?—A. Mr. 
 Kitchen. 
 
 Q. Was he not in the last Congress—the Forty-fifth ?—A. No, sir' 
 Governor Brogdeu represented that district in the Forty-fifth Congress. 
 
 Q. You say the colored people have not much confidence in Demo¬ 
 crats ?—A. No, sir; I said not politically. Otherwise they come to 
 them freely for advice, or favors, or assistance. 
 
 Q. In matters of business they look to them for advice ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 in everything except politics. 
 
 Q. Are they ready to take your advice in matters not political ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then why do you ad vance the theory that if the Democrats had ad¬ 
 vised them to go they would have staid ?—A. I say now that they will 
 take our advice in everything except political matters. 
 
 Q. But this is not political; it is industrial.—A. I think it has some¬ 
 thing of a political gloss to it. 
 
 Q. This, certainly, is a movement looking to their employment; and 
 yet you have told us that if the Democrats had advised them to go they 
 would have been more likely to stay.—A. I have said that they have 
 not much faith in Democrats, in political matters. 
 
 Q. Is there any politics in that?—A. They look upon it in that light; 
 they were told that they were wanted in Indiana to vote the Republi¬ 
 can ticket. 
 
 Q. Who tells them that?—A. Some of their “strikers.” The evi¬ 
 dence we have is that the movement was first instigated by Republi¬ 
 cans—whether leading Republicans or not I am not prepared to say. 
 
 Q. What is your information on that subject?—A. The first informa¬ 
 tion I had was a paper that was placed in my hands, called the Green- 
 castle Banner, in which the editor proposed to hud homes for fifteen 
 huudred colored immigrants in this,State. 
 
 Q. Did it make any political suggestion in connection with that prop¬ 
 osition ?—A. Ido not know that he did. 
 
 Q. That proposition was purely industrial ?—A. It appeared so. 
 
 Q. No other reason was stated ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Only that if they would come they would be furnished with homes ? 
 —A. That was the proposition. 
 
 Q. Was there any political suggestion there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where else did you obtain any information on this subject ?—A. 
 The correspondence these parties who are working up the exodus move¬ 
 ment had with regard to it was with men who, I am informed, are Re¬ 
 publicans. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of their offering the colored people any political in¬ 
 ducements or giving them any political reasons why they should come 
 to Indiana?—A, No, sir. I saw that one colored man, named C. A. 
 Scott, was very cautious in his report; he said, “ You can get a few dol¬ 
 lars more wages in Indiana, but you will have to work harder; no idle 
 time is allowed; you will not be indulged as you are in North Carolina.” 
 He evidently had not the courage to advise them to go. He said, “ If 
 you do go, you had better not go tilf spring.” 
 
 Q. His report was, in substance, if you are industrious, and will go to 
 Indiana, you can do well; but the lazy had better stay in North Caro¬ 
 lina; is there any political motive in that?—A. Apparently not. But 
 when I asked him whom did he meet in Indianapolis, he mentioned sev¬ 
 eral persons: Dr. Abbot, a colored man, Mr. Thompson, a colored man, 
 and a white man who was one of the citv officers. I asked him what 
 their politics were, and he said they were Republicans. I asked him 
 
144 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 how lie came to seek these parties. He said he had letters of introduc¬ 
 tion to them, indorsed by representative colored men from North Car¬ 
 olina. 
 
 Q. Then, it is only because he had letters of introduction to and had 
 conversation with Republicans that you suppose this movement to have 
 a political purpose A. I said that I had no knowledge of my own ; 
 that I spoke only from common reports. 
 
 Q. Did he state that these Republicans whom he met in Indianapolis 
 gave any political reason for inviting colored people to come into the 
 {State ?—A. I do not know that he did. 
 
 Q. They better not come until spring, he said ?—A. I think that was 
 one thing he said. 
 
 (At this point some discussion arose as to the laws of Indiana in re¬ 
 gard to voting, which the chairman settled by stating that there was a 
 provision in the constitution of Indiana whereby a residence of six 
 months in the State makes a man a voter.) 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Would you not have supposed that, if they wanted these men 
 there for political purposes, he would not have asked them to postpone 
 going there till spring?—A. I have simply told you what was said to 
 me, or what I have heard from common report; you can draw your 
 own inferences. 
 
 Q. Then all the reason you have for supposing this movement to 
 have a political purpose is because this man, when he went to Indian¬ 
 apolis, took with him letters addressed to Republicans and while there 
 conversed with Republicans?—A. No, sir; that is not all the reason I 
 have. I had observed that Scott was very unwilling to communicate 
 freely to me on the subject, suspecting that I intended to use any¬ 
 thing that I might learn from him for publication. He is a mechanic, 
 a carpenter, a good workman, and finds no trouble in getting employ¬ 
 ment by the leading citizens. He is looked upon as a man of charac¬ 
 ter. Therefore he was very cautious what he said to me. So I had a 
 gentleman, a friend of mine, who is a practicing physician, Dr. Cobb, 
 call upon him. The doctor said to him, “ I have read your interview in 
 the Messenger, and am highly pleased with it;” and they conversed for 
 some time in regard to it. Finally Dr. Cobb said, u Do you think that 
 it is really the condition of the colored people in Indiana that they can 
 earn more wages and will be better off in all respects than they are 
 here?” Then Scott said, “I will tell you, doctor; I do not tell editors 
 everything I know; but I will tell you that the real fact of the matter is 
 this: the colored people will not stay in Indiana more than a year; the 
 object is to get them to Indiana; and there they are now forming a land 
 and emigration association, and they intend to carry the colored people 
 to a large tract of laud in Kansas, and in a year from now they will be 
 taken from Indiana and carried to Kansas.” 
 
 Q. That is the statement which the doctor gave you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you account for these people going there?—A. The only 
 way I can account for it is that these ageuts, Evaus and others, were 
 paid to work up the fever. 
 
 Q. Do you know how they were paid?—A. No, sir; I have no idea. 
 I have seen the evidence of Mr. Dukeliart, where he says he pays 
 Evans a dollar a head, and Evans has not denied it. 
 
 Q. You do not know of any other reason ?—A. I stated that since 
 that I had a letter placed in my hand from Nathan Wade, in which he 
 asksdor money to come home; and I read that letter to Taylor Evans, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 145 
 
 \ 
 
 and I said, u If yon have any conscience at all you would quit this busi¬ 
 ness, sending th se people there to starve;” and he said, “I am just 
 employed by the Emigration Aid Society;” and he said to me, u If you 
 were employed to do a certain work, wouldn’t you do jour duty ?” 
 
 Q. He said he was employed by the Emigration Aid Society ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; and he says, u If you were employed to do a thing, wouldn’t 
 you do your duty ?” I asked him if he knew of their condition there. 
 He said he didn’t know anything of their condition there. I said, 
 “Why don’t you go there and see to it?” He said he had only money 
 enough to go to Washington and turn back. 
 
 Q. I see in this newspaper where Ex-Judge W. J. Clarke has started 
 a paper called The Signal, and where he states that a negro accused of 
 a crime is convicted on half the evidence that it takes to convict a white 
 man.—A. My answer is that there is no truth in the chirge; that it is 
 false. My answer is here in this copy of my paper. 
 
 INFAMOUS DEFAMATIONS. 
 
 Our attention was recently directed to a paragraph taken from an article in ex-Judge 
 W. J. Clarke’s paper, the Signal, in which the ex-judge charges that in many of our 
 eastern counties “ the colored man is excluded from the jury-box because of his color,” 
 and, further, that “a negro accused of crime is convicted on half the evidence which 
 is necessary to convict a white man.” This charge, coming whence it may, is simply 
 infamous, and the only excuse we can find for the false declaration is that the author 
 thereof may have reached the petulance of age that is the early blossom of senility, 
 and that his faculties are so abated that he may plead the infirmities of years for hav¬ 
 ing given utterance to so vile a slander against our people. 
 
 There is no truth in the charge, so far as the inferior courts of the counties of Wayne 
 and Lenoir are concerned, which his ex-judgeship delights in pointing out so conspic¬ 
 uously in connection with what we have quoted from his article, and the reckless im¬ 
 putation, in manner and in matter, is simply a fabrication, a piece of arrogance, or, in 
 charity, let us hope, a thoughtless license of speech. 
 
 Our Kinston contemporary has already spoken its protest as far as Lenoir County is 
 concerned, and the Messenger does so in behalf of Wayne County. Our inferior court 
 is presided over by three most honorable gentlemen, and its worthy solicitor is as gen¬ 
 erous as he is unbiased iu the discharge of his unpleasant duties, alike to white 
 and black. All who know the presiding justice, old Maj. John C. Slocumb, know him 
 to be a high-toned, upright, Christian gentleman, as such resjrected by both white and 
 black, and what we here say of him we can also apply in the strictest sense to his as¬ 
 sociates upon the bench, Messrs. L. G. Pearsall and F. I. Becton. Mr. I. F. Dortch, the 
 able solicitor, has the confidence of our citizens, and discharges his duties with an eye 
 to mercy rather than bias towards colored offenders, and we could cite many instances 
 in evidence of this fact. Again, the charge that colored men are being excluded from 
 juries is not true, especially when applied to Wayne County inferior court. We are 
 officially assured that there has not been a jury empaneled for several terms but two 
 or more colored men were on it, except when set aside by the defendant in the case. 
 The State has hardly ever rejected one. 
 
 No, there is no oppression of the colored people in our courts of justice, and, lastly, 
 our readers will agree w ith us that such imputations come with peculiar bad grace 
 from the pen of ex-Judge Clarke, his judicial record considered, no matter whether it 
 be intended as a “ puff' for show ” or a “ field-bat ” for political ends. 
 
 Q. It is a fact, however, that it is claimed by papers in your own State 
 that such things exist?—A. No, sir; it is not. 
 
 Q. Is not that one of your North Carolina papers?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Doesn’t the editor claim it so?—A. Yes, sir; he is a Republican, 
 and edits a Republican paper. 
 
 Q. Then you think a Republican cannot tell the truth ?—A. Yes, sir, 
 he can; but this is not true. I was speaking awhile ago of the court 
 in one county, and I wish to say that I am not at all in favor of the in¬ 
 ferior courts, and I advocated that criminal courts should be established 
 in their place. Yet we have most excellent gentlemen, three highly- 
 esteemed gentlemen, on the bench, one who is an old Christian gentle- 
 
 10 EX 
 
146 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 man, a Methodist of lifetime standing, who are on our bench, and they 
 are generally liked by both white and black. 
 
 Q. Isn’t there difference of opinion in North Carolina as to whether 
 the negroes have all their rights in the courts?—A. There are some 
 demagogues who want office who make that charge, but intelligent Re¬ 
 publicans do not make that charge, and the ignorant portion of the 
 colored people are ready to believe that they have some grievances 
 when it is continually told to them by these men. They believe they 
 are wronged in the courts, but those who know and understand the 
 situation do not think so. For those who do not get an attorney one is 
 appointed for him, and they generally take an appeal from the decision 
 if he is not fairly treated. 
 
 Q. Well, then, Mr. Bonitz, isn’t there a difference between the Repub¬ 
 lican demagogues and the Democratic patriots as to this fact ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; but there are demagogues in both parties. 
 
 Q. Well, some of these Republicans do hold so ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The North State is a paper published in your State?—A. Yes, sir’ 
 I am exchanging with it. 
 
 Q, W hat does it think about it ?—A. I do not know, sir. I am not 
 very familiar with that section, as it is some distance from my place to 
 Green sborough. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything against the editor of that paper?—A. I 
 think the editor is Mr. Keogh. 
 
 Senator Vance. No, it is not. 
 
 The Witness. I was under the impression it was Keogh; that is the 
 reason I stated what I did; but I look upon that paper as being a good 
 paper. 
 
 Q. (By Senator Windom.) If he says the negroes are not fairly treated 
 in the matter of juries, do you think that he does that from a false mo¬ 
 tive, or that he is simply mistaken as to his judgment?—A. L think he 
 is doing wrong to single out rare cases and charge them as being the 
 rule. I might cite the case of Mechin, and say that was a hard sentence; 
 but the general character of the person is taken into account in the 
 courts in imposing sentences. 
 
 Q. I find that this gentleman of whom you spoke so well, and who 
 edits this paper, says: 
 
 Iu the year 1870 the Democrats obtained control of the legislature for the first time 
 since the war. It is well understood that their victory was won by the aid of the 
 ku-klux,and was the result of the bloody outrages committed by that order during 
 the two or three years preceding that election. This order and kindred organiza¬ 
 tions, which had for their common object the suppression or control of the votes of 
 the colored people, were disbanded. Prosecutions against many members of these or¬ 
 ders had already been instituted in the courts of the United States, and murderers of 
 colored people, and Republicans could no longer expect that immunity which had been 
 so generously and so invariably extended to them by the State courts. It was be¬ 
 lieved that the work so well begun could be accomplished just as etfectually and far 
 more safely through the legislature, many of whom were members of the different 
 secret orders organized to prevent negro supremacy, and many others elected by their 
 influence and heartily sympathizing with them. In other words, the Democrats, find¬ 
 ing that they could not deprive the colored people of the right to vote by violence 
 without great danger to themselves, determined to accomplish this object, so dear to 
 their hearts, by Jaw. From that date the legislation of North Carolina, so far as it 
 affects the colored people and their interests, bears the unmistakable impress of theku- 
 klux, and breathes the intolerant spirit of that bloody order. The first important step 
 which the Democrats took to carry out the programme which they had laid down 
 was to deprive the people of the right to elect their own county commissioners and 
 magistrates, and to give the legislature the right to appoint the latter. By this act 
 they placed the power of trying petty cases in the hands of a lot of their own ku-klux 
 followers, who have not failed to carry out the wishes of their masters. This was felt 
 to be a heavy blow, but it was light in comparison with what was to come. The col- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 147 
 
 ored people might have borne, with some equanimity, the sight of a ku-klux govern¬ 
 or and secretary of state but when they are compelled to have their lives and their 
 liberty placed in the hands of ku-klux judges, they feel that the limit of human for¬ 
 bearance has been reached. One, at least, of the judges of our superior court was an 
 active member of the ku-klux, and attained to rank and influence in the order in his 
 own county. 
 
 It is true that he showed the white feather when the pinch came, but this very cow¬ 
 ardice makes him the more dangerous, because he would naturally be anxious to wipe 
 out this disgrace by more than common zeal in the service of the men whom in their 
 hour of danger he was ready to betray to save his own skin. It is his proud boast 
 that he once shot a u nigger ” in the hack in self defence, and he never has forgiven 
 the “nigger” for it to this day. There are others of our judges who, if not mem¬ 
 bers of the ku-klux, were in full sympathy with them. Here, then, we have a view 
 of the whole system—a ku-klux legislature to make the laws, a ku-klux solicitor to 
 prosecute, a ku-klux jury to try the case, and a ku-klux judge to pass sentence; men 
 who have, all of them, taken a solemn oath to exert their power to keep down the 
 colored people. When we add to this the notorious fact that these men and their 
 friends believe that “niggers” have no right to vote, and that the placing of the 
 ballot in the hands of the colored people was an outrage on the entire South, and was 
 done on purpose to humiliate Southern men, we can see that this system is a far more 
 formidable engine of oppression than any open violence, because its work is done under 
 the forms of law. 
 
 A. With your permission I would like to make au explanation. So 
 far as his statement about the taking of the right of suffrage from the 
 people—the right of electing their own officers, I will state that previ¬ 
 ous to the last constitution we had the most miserable and deplorable 
 state of county governments. For instance, in our own county we had 
 a bad government; the county bonds were almost worthless, and the 
 county finances were in the hands of speculators and brokers in the 
 court-house, and the warrants were not worth forty cents on the dollar. 
 The jurors could not get a dollar for sitting on the juries, and not a 
 dollar of claim agaius r the county could be collected. VVe had iguorant 
 people on the c mrrs and for magistrates, and came frequently near 
 having difficulties growing out of these facts. One that I know of was 
 a colored magistrate who could not read and write. He was in a colored 
 township, where the population was largely colored, and he was a noto¬ 
 rious character. Yet the colored people elected him to any office that 
 he wanted, either to the legislature or any other office that he aspired 
 to. He abused his influence, and in several cases took bribes to decide, 
 the cases before him—in two or three cases. He would order wild 
 youug colored men to take their guns and go and arrest white men 
 without a warrant. And all this kind of thing caused the reorganiza¬ 
 tion of these county governments. The leading republicans desired it 
 in many instances, and preferred the legislature to appoint the magis¬ 
 trates. It was the desire to get back to the old system before the war, 
 because it was necessary to all who owned property to have it fairly 
 assessed and taxed, and the money applied to legitimate purposes. 
 
 Q. My desire is to ask you if there are not differences of opinion be¬ 
 tween some people of the State on that subject l —A. Yes, sir ; there are. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. I observe that you stated there was no discrimination between the 
 races in the courts.—A. No, sir; there is no discrimination. 
 
 Q. You do understand that there is a very substantial difference be¬ 
 tween the penal laws of North Carolina and most Northern States in 
 regard to the punishment of offences?—A. I do not think so. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that in Indiana the stealing of seventy-five 
 cents is punished in the same way as in North Carolina!—A. If you 
 had such loose moral characters. 
 
 Q. No, no; I am simply asking if it is so.—A. No, sir; I think not. 
 
148 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Is it so that the penal laws of Indiana and the Northern States 
 generally are more favorable to petty offences than in North Carolina ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; I believe so, and yet our courts have as much to do as 
 they can in trying these cases. 
 
 Q. I am not asserting that your laws are not necessary there, but I 
 am speaking of the fact that there is a great difference between the 
 laws of your State and that of most Northern States. 
 
 Senator Vooriiees. I will save you the trouble, Mr. Blair, of ques¬ 
 tioning Mr. Bonitz with regard to the laws of Indiana. We have 
 plenty of evidence here at hand upon that subject, and I will save you 
 the trouble of examining him upon it. 
 
 Senator Blair. How many instances have you seen of men sent to 
 the penitentiary five years for stealing seventy five cents worth of prop¬ 
 erty ? What do you know of anything of that kind ? 
 
 Senator Voorliees. I will prove that the same thing is done in In¬ 
 diana just as soon as you get through with the witness. I will prove 
 that petit larceny is punished with as severe penalties almost in the 
 State of Indiana as in North Carolina. There are plenty of witnesses 
 to prove it; two prosecuting attorneys will prove it. 
 
 Q. (By Senator Blair.) What was your understanding upon this sub¬ 
 ject before you got your understanding now from the chairman ?—A. I 
 know nothing about the laws of the Northern States, except what in¬ 
 formation I received by reading reports in my exchanges of trials and 
 convictions there. Of course I admit there is a diversity of penalties, 
 inflicted upon the same offences throughout the United States. I have 
 seen in the New York courts where a party has stolen thousands of 
 dollars and gotten off with one year in the penitentiary, but in our 
 courts where penalties are very severe they are generally penalties in¬ 
 flicted on old offenders. If they are first offences probably they will be 
 let off on the payment of costs. If we had less severe penalties in our 
 State I do not see how we could get aloug with our courts. 
 
 Q. I was not asking you as to that. I am getting at the state of 
 mind of the people there. Isn’t it the understanding that the punish¬ 
 ments are less severe in the Northern States than in the Southern 
 States'?—A. The colored people have been made to believe that, and 
 that is the reason some of them are going to the North. 
 
 Q. That would be a reason which would operate on white as well as 
 black, would it not?—A. Y r es, sir; of course it would. 
 
 Q. Still you say there is no discrimination between the races?—A. 
 No, sir ; there is no discrimination. 
 
 Q. But the belief is that the laws are more liberal in Indiana than in 
 North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that accounts for the exodus to some extent ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is all. 
 
 The Witness. While I want to protest that I am not a Republican, 
 yet I also want to protest that when you speak of the disfranchisement 
 of the parties for larceny in my State as being a law that operates 
 harshly on the Republicans I want to say that the Republican party of 
 my State are not all rogues. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Who was the prosecuting attorney in the second district ?—A. He 
 was a colored man named Collins. 
 
 Q. Who is the prosecuting officer now?—A. Swift Calloway; he is 
 the first prosecuting officer who is a Democrat that we had in our dis¬ 
 trict, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 149 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. LAMB. 
 
 John E. Lamb sworn and examined. 
 
 Bv the Chairman: 
 
 «y 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. Terre Haute,Yigo County, 
 Indiana. 
 
 Q. You were born there, I believe ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. Practicing law. 
 
 Q. How long have you been practicing law ?—A. About five years. 
 
 Q. State what official positions you have held in your profession?— 
 A. I was prosecuting attorney in my district for three and a half years. 
 
 Q. What counties were embraced in your district?—A. Yigo and 
 Sullivan. 
 
 Q. You were three and a half years prosecuting attorney?—A. Y"es, 
 sir; once by appointment and once by election. 
 
 Q. That is of the circuit court?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. State, Mr. Lamb, whether your acquaintance is very general in 
 the county in which you live, and especially in Sullivan County?—A. 
 Y r es, sir; I know them very well, perhaps as well as anybody in Sulli¬ 
 van County, and especially do I know the people of my own county. 
 
 Q. State what ward you live in, in the city of Terre Haute?—A. In 
 the third ward. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the colored population of the city reside in that 
 ward?—A. Not quite one-half. 
 
 Q. There are more in that ward than in any other ward of the city ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; twice as many. 
 
 Q. How many colored voters are there in Yigo County ?—A. Between 
 four and five hundred. 
 
 Q. Making the population about how many in that county?—A. 
 Making, I believe, five—to count but one voter, and a great many of 
 them are young men—I should say two thousand colored people in the 
 county. 
 
 Q. Mr. Lamb, the examination of the last witness closed on questions 
 concerning the penal laws of Indiana and North Carolina; state if yon 
 are familiar with the penal laws of Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; I am. 
 
 Q. State what penalty can be inflicted in our courts for petit larceny ? 
 —A. Well, sir, petit larceny in our State is an offence defined by statute, 
 and consists of stealing any property of any value not exceeding $15, 
 and is punishable by fine not exceeding $5D0 and confinement in the 
 penitentiary not more than three years, or in the common jail for any 
 time less than one year. 
 
 Q. H< )w about disfranchisement?—A. They cau be disfranchised for 
 any purpose not more than fourteen years. 
 
 Q. For petit larceny they can be imprisoned for three years and dis¬ 
 franchised fourteen?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State if you, as prosecuting attorney, have seen any cases of that 
 kind in your experience.—A. I sent a white man to the penitentiary 
 for two years for stealing a bottle of whisky and au old hat. 
 
 Q. The value of those articles was not equal to seventy five cents, 
 was it ?—A. No, sir; I don’t think it was. But if you will allow me to 
 say it, I think the man went to the penitentiary on general principles. 
 
 Q. lie was a bad man?—A. Y r es, sir; everybody was ready to send 
 him there whenever they got a chance. 
 
 Q. There is uo trouble, however, about sending a man to the peniten¬ 
 tiary for stealing seventy five cents if he is convicted ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. AYas there any disfranchisement ?—A. I think two years, the same 
 
150 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 as the term in the penitentiary. That was in Sullivan County, where 
 the Democratic majority is 1,300. 
 
 Q. The man was tried by a Democratic jury ?—A. I cannot say as to 
 the composition of that jury, but I do not believe you can get a jury in 
 that county without two-thirds of them being Democrats. * 
 
 Q. Be was a Democrat himself, wasn’t he ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it was a Democratic court ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you yourself are a Democrat?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you sent him to the penitentiary for two years and disfran¬ 
 chised him for two?—A. Yes, sir. Mr. Kelley has corrected me as to 
 that; it was for two years. 
 
 Q. So if these North Carolina people think they are going to a land 
 where there is a more lenient penal law than they have in North Caro¬ 
 lina, they are mistaken?—A. Yes, sir; unless the penalty can be in¬ 
 creased to five jears down there, as one of the witnesses stated. 
 
 Q. Now, I want to know what you know, if anything, on the subject 
 of these people coming into our county; how many have been brought 
 there ?—A. Well, I should say, up to the time I left home, Monday 
 afternoon, there had come into Yigo County between one hundred and 
 filty and two hundred people, men, women, and children. Besides this 
 number, there have been perhaps forty or fifty come to Terre Haute, 
 and taken to Paike County and Bockville, twenty or twenty-five miles 
 above there. 
 
 Q. Who took them up there ?—A. I cannot say who took them. I 
 know who sent them. It was Mr. Walker, the mail agent at Terre 
 Haute, at the depot. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Walker?—A. He is the mail agent at the depot. 
 
 Q. Is he a prominent colored politician ?—A. He is the most promi¬ 
 nent mau among them. 
 
 Q. Where are those people who have been brought to Vigo County ? 
 —A. A number of them are standing on the streets, young men, and 
 there are a number of boys among them ; there are men, women, and 
 children—men who are the husbands of women, I suppose—who are 
 quartered now in w hat is known as the new African Methodist Episco¬ 
 pal church, down in the third ward. 
 
 Q. How many of them are housed in that church?—A. Well, I think 
 on that day there were forty or fifty. 
 
 Q. How were they being fed ?—A. By the charity of the people round 
 about there. 
 
 Q. What measures wmre taken to raise money for them to buy them 
 something to eat?—A. Ten days ago there was a meeting of. the colored 
 people to do something about it. I do not know the purposes of the 
 meeting further than it all ended in a row in trying to raise a commit¬ 
 tee. They failed to do so. The better class of colored people in our 
 State are opposed to the movement. Nobody but Walker has taken any 
 prominence in it since they came there without food or means. I think 
 there is some sort of organization gotten up on Sunday, some sort of 
 relief society to help them. Some of them came there on Friday night 
 and some Saturday and Monday. I saw some of them, with baskets on 
 their arms, looking for food; 1 saw r several of them who stopped me and 
 asked me lor money. Some of them w T ere rather well dressed and well- 
 behaved looking people, but they had no money and nothing to eat. 
 
 Q. What proportion of those w ho have reached Terre Haute have re¬ 
 ceived employment ?—A. Very few. I know that some of them have 
 been employed. Mr. Walker has interested in getting them employed : 
 I do not think that others have. The wages for colored people are so 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 151 
 
 low, and there are enough of our own people to fill all the positions, that 
 they cannot make more than ten to twelve dollars with board. You 
 know of cases, and so do I, where they have been paid in good families 
 that much, but never more. They cannot get work, and several of them 
 fold me that they had been told they would have to wait until spring to 
 get work on the farms. 
 
 Q. I know your full acquaintance with nearly everybody in Yigo 
 County; from that acquaintance with the farmers of Vigo County, will 
 you tell this committee whether there is any demand for these people 
 or for any laborers in that county at this time?—A. I am well ac¬ 
 quainted with the farmers of the county and in our township, and I 
 never heard of any such demand, and I think if there was such a de¬ 
 maud I would know of it. 
 
 Q. What could a laboring man get to do starting out to get a day’s 
 work, white or colored, at this season of the year, especially in Vigo 
 County?—A. I do not see how he could work‘at all, unless he worked 
 for nothing; of course he might work for his board; if there was any 
 work for him to do, maybe he would get fifty cents a day for a day’s 
 work. There are plenty of men, I believe, in Vigo County for $10 per 
 month, a*nd glad to get it in the winter time. 
 
 Q. Did you happen to talk to trustee Abbott before you left home?— 
 A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. What is your information and knowledge of people wanting em¬ 
 ployment there and not being able to get it?—A. I do not know as I 
 can say, except that men have been coming to me for the last six 
 months asking for help and for work, and if they could not get work 
 they needed charity. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it a common and A constant thing?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State in regard to our county, whether it is an old, well-settled 
 and cultivated county, or a new county demanding labor to clear it up 
 and put it under cultivation.—A. It is an old county, a good agricul¬ 
 tural county, and well populated, and I suppose iu the seventy or ninety 
 counties of our State there is not one as densely populated as it. 
 
 Q. It was settled in 1812, I believe ?—A. Yes, and has about 30,000 
 people in it. 
 
 Q. Do you know what became of those emigrants who were taken up 
 into Parke County ?—A. No, sir; I don’t think they got employment, 
 and for those I think they made arrangements up there in the Quaker 
 settlement, up near Annapolis. 
 
 Q. That is a heavy Republican county, is it not, Parke County ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say they took fifty or sixty up there?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 they were not all voters. 
 
 Q. You stated that there were not more than fifty or sixty who had 
 gone to Vigo County ?—A. I have heard of only a few ; some may get a 
 day’s work, but I do not know as to that. I know there are six or seven 
 employed by Republican politicians there. 
 
 Q. Who are they ?—A. There are two or three men and women em¬ 
 ployed by Mr. Beauchamp, a Republican politician, who was consul at 
 Aix la-Chapelle and Cologne. He has not been back long. Another 
 politician, Mr. Boudinot, I think has one. 
 
 Q. You may give such evidence as you have, that this is a political 
 movement, so far as the State is concerned, or any other tacts that you 
 many have concerning the exodus.—A. I do not know what reasons 
 they have lor immigration to other parts of the State; but it has im¬ 
 pressed me as a political movement for one reason—that when the 
 
152 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 people came there they were not met by people regardless of politics, or 
 by the better classes of people, even of the colored people, but they 
 were met by these United States officials who have been active in get¬ 
 ting them to come there, and getting places and taking care of them. [ 
 heard of this man Walker sending a circular to the South some ten 
 days ago. 
 
 Q. Did you see this circular?—A. No, sir* I did not read it. But I 
 know that those ltepublicans who are going about in Terre Haute try¬ 
 ing to get employment for these people are favoring the movement; 
 and I know the further fact that a gentleman, a very prominent Repub¬ 
 lican from Terre Haute, told me last Saturday that Walker came to 
 him and said they should make room for a large number of them. It is 
 a desideratum for them to come there. They are trying to get them in 
 Terre Haute, so located as to carry my ward at the spring elections. 
 From these facts, and others that I knew, and because 1 knew they 
 would not fare as well there as they would in North Carolina, after they 
 told me that they were getting from ten to twelve dollars a month in 
 North Carolina, and that they were well treated, and that none of them 
 had any complaint against their treatment in North Carolina, I thought 
 they had better stay there than come to Indiana. I will state that I 
 never heard of any railroad company beiug interested in the movement 
 at all before I read the evidence before this committee the other day. I 
 did not know of any motive of that kind for the exodus. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You say you were a prosecuting officer for three and a half 
 years ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For the entire county ?—A. For two, counties. We have a dis¬ 
 trict, and mine is the fourteenth judicial district. 
 
 Q. What county do you live in ?—A. The county I live in is Vigo, 
 and has fifty thousand people. 
 
 Q. What of the other county ?—A. I should say Sullivan County has 
 twenty thousand people. I should think there are seventy thousand 
 in the district. 
 
 Q. Your district comprises some large places. What is the popula¬ 
 tion of Terre Haute?—A. We polled five thousand votes in Terre 
 Haute, and I suppose the population, according to the ratio allowed for 
 votes, would be about twenty-live thousand people. 
 
 Q. Are there any other large places in your district?—A. No, sir; 
 Sullivan has about two thousand to twenty-five hundred voters. 
 
 Q. I understood you to state the population at two thousand, for the 
 negroes, in Vigo County ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there as many there as in other counties ?—A. No, sir ; there 
 is not a hundred in Sullivan County. 
 
 Q. Was your practice very extensive while you were prosecuting at¬ 
 torney ?—A. Yes, sir; we have a criminal court in our county, in Vigo 
 County, and causes are tried in the criminal court by the criminal 
 prosecuting attorney ; so the bulk of my practice, as public prosecuting 
 attorney, was in Sullivan County. 
 
 Q. You had a good knowledge, however, of the criminal practice in 
 the district ?—A. Yes, sir; I suppose I had, for I was prosecuting in 
 Sullivan County, but that did not prevent me from defending a man 
 before the criminal court at home. 
 
 Q. You were appointed prosecuting attorney when ?—A. When I was 
 twenty-one years of age. I am twenty seven now; that was six years 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 153 
 
 Q, Your observation of affairs in that part of the State runs from 
 that time ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have stated the law for the punishment of petit larceny, such 
 as stealing an amount under fifteen dollars?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have said that it was punished by imprisonment for three 
 years-?—A. Three years; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And disfranchisement for two years ?—A. No, sir ; I was mistaken 
 about that. Mr. Kelly has refreshed my mind. It is disfranchisement 
 for the same time as the term of imprisonment. 
 
 Q. And a fine not exceeding three hundred dollars ?—A. Five hun¬ 
 dred, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is the extreme of the penalty?—A. That is the extreme 
 of the penalty. 
 
 Q Have you ever known, in the whole of your criminal practice or 
 observation, a man to be put into the State’s prison for stealing a chicken 
 in Jndiaua?—A. Yes, I think 1 do ; 1 am sorry to say it, but 1 think I 
 do, Senator. 
 
 Q. You think you recollect a single instance, and you think that in¬ 
 stance was a dishonor to the State?—A. Yes, sir. There was another 
 case which exercised the people of Indiana, and that was where a col¬ 
 ored man was convicted of marrying a white woman. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any case of a man’s being put into the penitentiary 
 for stealing property of a less value than a dollar?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean with the exception of that man who stole a bottle of 
 whisky and an old hat?—A. Yes, sir, 1 do. 1 know a man who was 
 sent to the penitentiary for stealing an old coat. 
 
 Q. What was the proof as to the value of it ?—A. I saw the coat, and 
 some said it was worth sixty cents and some said it was worth a dollar. 
 
 Q. Was it a jury case ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were there any particular circumstances about it to aggravatethe 
 offense?—A. No, sir; I think not; 1 think he was tried by a jury, and 
 Mr. Kelly prosecuted the case. 
 
 Q. What was the length of the sentence ?—A. One year. 
 
 Q. Was there no fine?—A. Yes, sir; 1 think there was a fine, and 
 disfranchisement too; but that, Senator, is only a formal thing; 1 will 
 say that, as to the laws of Indiana, if a fellow gets out of the peniten¬ 
 tiary he goes elsewhere and votes all the same. 
 
 Q. You mean that he was imprisoned in a penitentiary or a jail?—A. 
 YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. That is one case which you know of; did he serve his term out?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there any others that you can give us ?—A. I say, Senator, it 
 is not a common occurrence with us to have a man convicted in that 
 way. 
 
 Q. But such cases occur, and you think they are disgraceful to the 
 State?—A. Really, I do not like them ; but the fact is where they are 
 sent to the penitentiary for offenses of that kind, it is generally because 
 the party is a bad man and the people want to get rid of him. 
 
 Q. That is because he is a hard, common character?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You spoke of labor being hard to find; do you know of any 
 threats by Democrats against people employing these immigrants from 
 North Carolina?—A. No, sir; I do not know of anything of the kind ; 
 so far as my county is concerned nothing has been said to them; in my 
 county the Democrats are friendly to them; they vote the Democratic 
 ticket in my ward, I know. 
 
154 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You are in politics yourself?—A. Yes, sir, somewhat; but iu 
 speaking of that fact I was not speaking of the people who came there ; 
 1 am speaking of those in Terre Haute, who have lived there nearly all of 
 their lives ; I object as much as anybody to people being imported there 
 to take charge of my State. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that after a while they will fall in with the 
 others and be as prosperous as they are?—A. I think the only influ¬ 
 ence that they would fall in with now, in their condition, is money, and 
 that the Republicans have most of that. 
 
 Q. What is the Republican majority in your county?—A. Our county 
 is in rather a different position from what it has been; last fall the Re¬ 
 publicans were demoralized and they were beaten five hundred by the 
 Greenbackers, and we beat the Greenbackers six hundred and the Re¬ 
 publicans eleven hundred. 
 
 Q. Where did these people who came there come from ?—A. They 
 came from North Carolina, from about Goldsborough, so far as I could 
 learn from those of whom I asked the question. 
 
 Q. Did^ou know of any coming there from other places?—A. The 
 first of them came from another place, but I cannot recollect the name. 
 
 Q. As a politician, do you not think that if the Republicans of the 
 State were trying to colonize it with negroes they would take them 
 from some neaier place than North Carolina?—A. I think it is the big¬ 
 gest fool thing 1 ever knew any party to do. 
 
 Q. Do you think, as a matter of expense, that they would take them 
 from Kentucky, for instance, before they would from North Carolina?— 
 A. I think probably they would. It would be reasonable for them to 
 do it. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is any political movement in this exodus ?—A. 
 I cannot see any other reason for it, except it be a political one. 
 
 Q. You think the Republican party would go to North Carolina, at a 
 cost of $20, to get a voter, and have him briug his wife, children, and 
 all with him, when they could go to Kentucky and get voters at a much 
 less price?—A. Well, sir, I have heard Republicans state that it was a 
 very foolish thing, but that they were going to bring enough in there, 
 into Indiana, to carry the State. 
 
 Q. Who did you hear make that statement ?—A. I think the Repub¬ 
 licans around Terre Haute have made it, and Mr. Langsdale, the editor 
 of the Greencastle Banner. I think there are parties here who have 
 heard him say that. 
 
 Q. Do you think that they would bring these men from North Caro¬ 
 lina merely for the purpose of making voters out of them when they 
 could be gotten in Kentucky or Tennessee at a much less cost?—A. I 
 think so. The men who are doing this sort of thing might do very foolish 
 things in connection with it. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it much easier to get men from across the river than it is to 
 come around by Washington and go to Niorth Carolina for them ?—A. 
 Of course it is easy enough to get them across the river and vote them 
 and let them go back, arid I think they do it sometimes. 
 
 Q. Y"ou have tried it on yourself, haven’t you, with Democratic white 
 voters ?—A. I have seen something of the kind stated in Republican 
 newspapers. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that that has been done ?—A. I have not done 
 anything of that kind. I have had it charged, but I never knew of any 
 such thing being done. 
 
 Q. You say from one hundred and fifty to two hundred have come 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 155 
 
 into Vigo County; how many of them were voters?—A. I should say, 
 perhaps, forty or fifty. 
 
 Q. You think, in all, there are some forty or fifty voters ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; a great many of them don’t seem to be voters. But the trouble . 
 with colored men is, that you can’t tell anything about it. A great 
 many of them vote before they are twenty-one years of age. My judg¬ 
 ment is that there are forty or fifty who are over twenty-one years of age. 
 
 Q. Well, do that forty or fifty create any consternation in the Demo¬ 
 cratic party out there?—A. No, sir; but they create a great deal of dis¬ 
 cussion, because the people out there dou’t agree that people should be 
 brought there in that condition. 
 
 Q. How do yon know they are brought there ?—A. I know they were 
 brought there. 
 
 Q. You don’t think they came there of their own accord ?—A. Well, 
 sir, we can’t think so when they tell us that their fare was paid. 
 
 Q. You spoke of some government officer of Terre Haute who was 
 assisting these people, a Mr. Walker; is he white or colored?—A. He 
 is a colored man. 
 
 Q. He was just looking after them and taking care of them, wasn’t 
 he?—A. Ido not think he is doing much for them. When I left, the 
 most that was being done for them was by some colored barbers, men* 
 who belong to our own people. 
 
 Q. Who is this man Walker?—A. He carries the mail from the depot: 
 to the post-office and back. He is appointed under the government,, 
 and receives forty or fifty dollars a month. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with him about the exodus?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is his name?—A. James H. Walker. 
 
 Q. What other Republican have you heard talk about this as a Re¬ 
 publican political movement ?—A. I have given you the names of all 
 that I have heard. 
 
 Q. Just give them to us again.—A. As I stated, you asked me for 
 my reasons for believing this was a political movement. I stated, from 
 the first place, considering that there was no need of these people there, 
 and they could do no better there than in North Carolina, and from 
 the fact that nobody took any interest in them, in our State at least, and 
 in my county, except the Republicans and office-holders, I thought it 
 was a Republican movement. These people were brought there, and 
 had no money to live on when they got there ; and I thought these facts 
 justified the belief that they were induced to come there on account of 
 their votes. 
 
 Q. Who are these Republicans and office-holders who have taken an- 
 interest in them ?—A. Well, sir, these things are done in such a way 
 and so much more secretly than auytbing else, that you cannot exactly 
 state who is doing it. What I have said, I suspect more than anything 
 else. I saw Walker and Beechum consulting about it, and I find that 
 men and women are down at Be; chum’s working; and putting this and 
 that together, it looks very much to me like a scheme. 
 
 Q. It is a sort of matter of imagination or suspicion, then ?—A. Well, 
 yes, sir. I have given you all the facts that 1 have. 
 
 Q. And all your information is that the Republicans and officials 
 there are the only people who have been taking an interest in it?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they done anything more than to find places for them when 
 they got there?—A. Y r es, sir; they have done that for some of them ; 
 but so far as supplying them now is concerned, there was none of that- 
 being done when I left home. 
 
156 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that it is generally considered that the Republi¬ 
 cans are more friendly to the negroes than the Democrats, and that 
 they naturally go to them for help !—A. I do not think it is true in 
 • our State. 
 
 Q. Then the Democrats treat them the same as the Republicans?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I think they are just as well treated by the Democrats as 
 by the Republicans. 
 
 Q. Where do the complaints'against the exodus come from mostly ? 
 —A. From the Democrats; but I say I have yet to see a man—a 
 white man—either Democrat or a Republican—who favors this move¬ 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it mostly favored among the colored people?—A. No, sir; 
 the colored people do not like this man Walker. They are against him, 
 and don’t follow him, because they did not approve of his being ap¬ 
 pointed there. 
 
 Q. They had a meeting there, did they not. to take measures for get¬ 
 ting places for these people ?—A. Yes, sir; and it broke up in a row. 
 
 Q What grounds have the Republicans for being against them?—A. 
 They say there is no employment, and that it is a common and thriftless 
 class of people who are coming there. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ALBERT J. KELLY. 
 
 Albert J. Kelly sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. Practicing law. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a practicing lawyer ?—A. I was admitted 
 to the bar in 18(39, and have been practicing for ten years. 
 
 Q. State what official position you hold at this time in Indiana.—A. 
 I am prosecuting attorney in the criminal court of Vigo Countv. 
 
 Q. State how long you have been in that position.—A. Nearly six 
 years. 
 
 Q. How often do you have the grand jury together within the year in 
 that county?—A. The first Monday in every month. 
 
 Q. How many times is the grand jury drawn?—A. Twice; at the 
 April and October terms—every six months. 
 
 Q. How much of the time every year is the criminal court in session 
 trying criminal cases ?—A. Perhaps two-thirds of the year. 
 
 Q. Your county has a large town—the city of Terre Haute—in it ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have a large amount of business in your court ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. State the average number of convictions iu your court.—A. Well, 
 sir, about a year ago, when I was a candidate for re-election, I made 
 a statement of the average number of convictions in our court, and it 
 averaged a hundred a year. 
 
 Q. Do you mean for felony?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. State what penalty is iu Indiana for felonies.—A. For petit lar¬ 
 ceny it is fifteen years ; it used to be five, but it has been enlarged since 
 that time. 
 
 Q. State what you know of convictions for petit larceny.—A. I know 
 that I have been criticised, and the court has also, for sending people to 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 157 
 
 the penitentiary. We sometimes have a man up for grand larceny and 
 whom the jury does not convict, so that he can be sent to the pen¬ 
 itentiary. Sometimes the State consents to a nolle for grand larceny, 
 and it takes a verdict for petit larceny, and the offender is sent to jail ;< 
 but it is possible to send a man to jail or to the penitentiary for petit 
 larceny. 
 
 Q. Where the sentence is reduced from grand larceny to petit larceny 
 it is generally on account of the previous good character of the defend¬ 
 ant?—A. Yes, sir; and sometimes the stealing is of something very triv-. 
 ial; but there are people whom the whole community are against, and 
 when they steal and are caught they are sent to the penitentiary. 
 
 Q. That not being their first offense, and it being to the interest of 
 good society to have them out of the way, they are sent to the peniten¬ 
 tiary?—A. Yes, sir; and in our State when they go on the witness 
 stand we put in evidence their moral character. 
 
 Q. And when they are men of bad character the jury are liable to 
 give them the full extent of the penalty?— A. l r es, sir; and in Vigo 
 County especially. 
 
 Q. It has been attempted to be shown here that these people were 
 faring badly in the courts in North Carolina ; that they would have an 
 easier time in Indiana; what do you think about that ?—A. Well, sir, I can 
 illustrate. There was a darky who lived in the sixth ward, known as 
 Bagdad, and who nobody could keep chickens for. You would buy 
 them one day and they would go the next morning; but he was caught 
 with some chickens in a bag that he had just stolen, and was sent to 
 the penitentiary and disfranchised, I believe, for two years. 
 
 Q. That was for stealing one or two chickens?—A. I think there were 
 several in his bag. 
 
 Q. You do not think it was a disgrace to the State to send that man 
 to the penitentiary?—A. No, sir; but I thought I should do my duty in 
 the case, and the Republican papers there in the town thought it was a 
 good idea to catch him and send him to the penitentiary. We got rid 
 of him in that way, and I think everybody, white and Republican, were 
 glad of it. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any other instance of the same character?—A. 
 Another instauce was the sending of a fellow to the penitentiary for 
 stealing a coat. There were some difficulties in proving the value of 
 the coat, but I believe it was an old soldier or army coat. 
 
 Q. Aon sent him to the penitentiary?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For what length of time?—A. We sent him for a year. 
 
 Q. What was the value of the coat?—A. It was proven to be worth 
 about a dollar, I believe. 
 
 Q. Why did they send him to the penitentiary for stealing a coat that 
 was only worth a dollar?—A. Because he was a bad man, and everybody 
 thought he ought to go to the penitentiary. 
 
 Q. In the administration of the law there, Mr. Kelly, do the whites and 
 blacks get the same consideration?—A. A r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And these people from North Carolina will have to take the same 
 penalties as other people*?—A. Yes, sir; not only that, but the fact of 
 their being from North Carolina I think would be a little against them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a colored man on a jury in Vigo County ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see one on the grand jury?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a colored justice of the peace in Vigo County?— 
 A. No, sir; never. 
 
 Q. And Vigo County is oue of the couuties in which for our State 
 
158 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 there is a large colored population ?—A. Yes. sir; and there are some 
 very good people among them. 
 
 Q. Are there tax payers and men who own their own farms?—A. 
 Yes, sir; they are people who are respected by everybody, who attend 
 to their own business and make their own living. I will say further 
 that there are four or five colored men in the penitentiary for life for 
 murder, and I expect an equal number of white men. There have been 
 some sent from Yigo County in the last few years. 
 
 Q. Wh at are the long terms of confinement, if any?—A. There was 
 vone man, for manslaughter, sent for 18 years just last summer. There 
 was a fellow, a negro, charged by a woman whose character was brought 
 in question. He. was tried and convicted and sent for seven years. 
 
 Q. That was for trying to commit a rape on a woman of his own race 
 and of doubtful virtue?—A. YYs, sir; and I think he was sent to the 
 penitentiary more on account of his bad character than on account of 
 the aggravated nature of his offense. If he had been a man of good 
 character I do not think he would have gone at all. 
 
 Q. You may state what you know, if anything, of a colored man being 
 sent to the penitentiary for marrying a white woman ?—A. I had five 
 colored men indicted for intermarrying with white women. One was 
 convicted. A woman, one of them, came in and said she had a little 
 negro blood in her. One of them could not swear that she had any 
 negro blood in her veins; she had red hair and that made it impossible 
 to be mistaken. Nobody who saw her would mistake that she was a 
 white woman. Our law says that any person with one-eighth negro blood 
 shall not be allowed to intermarry with whites. He was the only one 
 that we could convict. 
 
 Q. What was his name ?—A. His name was Nelson. 
 
 Q. What about his pardon ?—A. It has been favored and asked for. 
 There has been an effort to get him pardoned. 
 
 Q. What about myself?—A. Yes, sir; you went to Governor Williams 
 and tried to get him pardoned. 
 
 Q. Governor Williams refused?—A. Yes, si? 
 
 Q. And he will not be pardoned?—A. No, sir; I think not. There 
 was a good deal of difficulty in these cases. I think some physicians 
 came in there to examine these women and felt their shins and said they 
 were colored. That was done to save these men, and was approved’of, 
 because the people generally felt that they ought not to go to the peni¬ 
 tentiary. 
 
 Q. Have you a very large acquaintance in Yigo County?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you canvassed it several times?—A. Yes, sir; I have been 
 elected three times, and have been canvassing among the people a great 
 deal. 
 
 Q. Have you mixed with the people from the country ?—A. Yes, sir; 
 I examine many of them on the witness stand every month. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to a demand for laborers at this time in Yigo 
 County?—A. I say there is none at all at this time. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any out in the country?—A. No, sir; they 
 complain a great deal of the large number who come to their houses for 
 work, and who impose upon them for their charities. 
 
 Q. What township?—A. At Terre Haute, in Harrison County. 
 
 Q. Do you know the trustee ?—A. Yes, sir; it is Benjamin Abbott. 
 
 Q. What are his politics ?—A. He is a National. 
 
 Q. What are his duties ?—A. It is his duty to oversee the poor, keep 
 up the roads, public buildings, and bridges, and he is the general book¬ 
 keeper for. the township, and attends to all their business. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 159 
 
 Q. What is bis duty as to the poor ?—A. When he is satisfied that 
 persons are residents of the township and are in a destitute condition, 
 he has power to relieve them. 
 
 Q. State if you saw Mr. Abbott before you came on here, and give us 
 his statement, so that we need not send for him.—A. I had a conver¬ 
 sation with him one day, and it was not had witli the expectation of my 
 having to testify here. We were speaking about the weather, and lie 
 said it was a good thing for our people that the winter was mild, and 
 that if it had not been so the distress would have been very great in 
 Terre Haute. He spoke of one family in particular that was suffering, 
 that the man had been working at a dollar a day, that his wife was 
 p ick and his children also, and that he was aiding them ; that the man 
 had a little piece of property, but was unable to make a living on ac¬ 
 count of the lack of labor and the poor wages paid, and (hat his action 
 Aad been assailed because he had been aiding them when they had. 
 property. 
 
 Q. What did he say as to persons in the township being idle ?—A. I 
 will state this, that the street commissioner in working the streets has 
 so many applications from idle men of our own town that he divides it 
 up, and lets one man work this week and lie off the next, so as to give 
 another man a chance for a week’s work. 
 
 Q. And that, you say, is done in behalf of our own people ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. It was done before these people came there?—A. Yes, sir; we 
 have only two seasons in the year when we need a large supply of labor¬ 
 ers ; that is the harvest and the corn gathering season, and we have 
 plenty of labor from among our own people to supply that demand. 
 
 Q. You say we have plenty of our own people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Please state any messages sent to you by any farmers of Vigo 
 County on this subject.—A. I talked to Mr. Stewart of Otter Creek 
 Township ; he is a large farmer. 
 
 Q. What did he say to you to tell me ?—A. He said to tell you that 
 the county was overrun with laborers, and that there was not a day but 
 that eight or ten came to his house and wanted work. I also talked 
 with Mr. Butts, in Sugar Creek Township, and James Bolton, in Fay¬ 
 ette Township, and they told me of the great number of people coming 
 to them demanding and seeking for work. 
 
 Q. Did you acquaint yourself with the condition of these emigrants 
 before you came on here?—A. My information is not very great on that 
 subject. I talked to people about them, and I heard they were down 
 at the African Methodist Episcopal church. I heard a colored man 
 standing on the corner of Third and Ohio streets talking about it. This 
 colored man was a stranger, and I expect he came on with them. He 
 said they were all piled up in one room together, and it was not good 
 for them • that if they staid down there some of them were bound to 
 die* 
 
 Q. W r ere they in the church then ?—A. Yes, sir; eating and sleeping 
 there. Some of them, too, were well-dressed people, and looked as 
 though they might do well if they had an opportunity. 
 
 Q. What proportion of them got work—employment ?— A. I do not 
 know. Lawrence Heindle and Mr. Dickerson have taken two, and this 
 case of Mr. Beacham’s—that is all I know of. 
 
 Q. Do you know this colored man Walker?—A. Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. Did you see the circular he had published in the city papers there 
 after Judge Carleton came on here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have the interview in which he acknowledged it?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
160 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Stare what number of familes lie advertised for.— A. Fifteen or 
 eighteen hundred. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that that is a fraud of the greatest possible 
 character?—A. Yes, sir. I do know it; and I know that the best col¬ 
 ored people of our State condemn it. 
 
 Q. You know that his course is condemned pretty generally by the 
 people in our section without respect to party ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Flare you seen any Republican paper that condemned it ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did the Terre Haute Express condemn him or stand by him in 
 this fraud?—A. No, sir; it rather supported him, and abused me and 
 everybody else who came here to testify. 
 
 Q. And the Indianapolis Journal and all of them do that?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 * Q. And none of them condemn this movement and fraud on the col¬ 
 ored people ?—A. No, sir ; but simply abuse this committee and all who 
 come here to testify. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You don’tlike the Republican papers much, anyhow ?—A. No, sir ; 
 I am not particularly fond of them, and I have reason for it. 
 
 Q. You read the Democratic papers?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you vote the Democratic ticket?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And vote it early and often ?—A. I generally vote it once every 
 election. 
 
 Q. And you are an ardent Democrat?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think all the good in the country is centered in the Demo¬ 
 cratic party?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Well, a larger part of it ?—A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. So far as the Republican newspapers are concerned, you do not 
 think they speak for their side of the house ?—A. I suppose they do. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of them encourage it as a Republican move¬ 
 ment?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anybody who has?—A. No, sir; except what I 
 see of the matter and judge for myself. 
 
 Q. What do you judge from ?—A. From the Republicans solely tak¬ 
 ing part in it; or defending those who have taken them out there. 
 
 Q. Do the Democratic papers denounce those who have been receiv¬ 
 ing them when they came there in a destitute condition ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 they have been denouncing the movement. 
 
 Q. Do the Republican papers approve of giving alms to the destitute ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that is Christian conduct?—A. Yes, sir; I think 
 it is. 
 
 Q. Do the Republican papers approve of the work of those people 
 who brought them there ?—A. They haveapproved of the acts of Walker 
 by defending and not disapproving of them. 
 
 Q. Have you seen where they condemned it ?—A. No, sir; I hear 
 that when some ot these people came here and testified, they have been 
 denounced, and the papers said they knew nothing of Vigo County, or 
 of the State. That was said about one gentleman whom I know knew 
 a great deal about it. 
 
 Q. Have you heard anything of mobs to burn the houses that had 
 been rented to North Carolina negroes ?—A. I have heard of threats of 
 that kind, but I do not know anything about them. 
 
 Q. Have you heard threats that they should not come there ?—A. I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 161 
 
 have heard them say that they did not want them there, and that they 
 should not continue to come. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that would decrease the demand for these labor¬ 
 ers ?—A. I should think so, as a man would naturally take care of his 
 property. 
 
 Q. Well, anyhow, you heard of these threats being made by Demo¬ 
 crats f —A. I did not say that. I heard that people had said that. 
 
 Q. You have talked to Republicans about this movement f—-A. Y"es, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And they objected to it.—A. Yes, sir; but they were colored Re¬ 
 publicans. 
 
 Q. Who is Stewart ? What are his politics ?—A. He was a National¬ 
 ist. 
 
 Q. What was Butt's politics ?—A. He was a Democrat. 
 
 Q. And Bolton’s ?—A. He was a Democrat. 
 
 Q. They were all Democrats who sent the messages to Senator Yoor- 
 hees —A. No, sir; Ido not know of any messages sent to Senator 
 Voorhees by anybody except Stewart. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAN YALZER. 
 
 Robert Van Valzer sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside % —Answer. In Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. I am a dentist. 
 
 Q. What position do ycu hold from Yigo County ?—A. A member of 
 the legislature. 
 
 Q. Are you at this time?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you elected in 1S78?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. State if you have a general acquaintance with the people in that 
 county, being their representative in the legislature.—A. I have a large 
 •acquaintance in the county. 
 
 Q. State if there is any demand that you know of for labor there, 
 either from the inside or outside of the county.—A. None, sir. There 
 is no demand for labor there now. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if there is not a surplus, and if people are not suffer¬ 
 ing for want of employment ?—A. There is no surplus of laborers. 
 
 Q. I mean, Mr. Yau Yalzer, are there more laborers than can find em¬ 
 ployment ?—A. O, yes, sir. I misunderstood you. There are many 
 more laborers than can find employment; and that includes persons who 
 have lived there, and are citizens of that town. 
 
 Q. And I understand vou that many are suffering for the want of 
 employment ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Doctor, have you noticed this immigration that has been coming 
 in there ?—A. I have. 
 
 Q. What is the condition they are in ?—A. There seem to me to be 
 a great many of them in want of something to eat. A great many of 
 them have been to my house begging. I live in the second ward, close 
 to the negro church where they are quartered; and they came over 
 there frequently to ask for something to eat. 
 
 Q. Have you been down to the church yourself ?—A. No, sir; I have 
 not. 
 
 Q. Have you had any conversation with any of them about why they 
 11 EX 
 
162 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 came there?—A. No, sir; not with the immigrants, but I have with our 
 own colored people. 
 
 Q. What is the general sentiment about it among your own colored 
 people ?—A. One, Samuel Archer, told me these people are offered from 
 a dollar to two dollars and a half a day for their labor, if they would 
 come to Indiana. This promise, he said, could not be fulfilled, and he 
 was sorry they had come. 
 
 Q. What is the general price of laborers, per month, in that section ? 
 —A. Farm laborers get from ten to twelve dollars per month. 
 
 Q. What are day laborers paid ?—A. From a dollar to a dollar and 
 a half. 
 
 Q. Not where they are boarded ; what, where they board themselves? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They get from a dollar to a dollar and a half a day, and are 
 boarded ?—A. Well, sir, farm laborers get from ten to twelve dollars a 
 mouth. There is very little hiring by the day. 
 
 Q. What do you know of meetings being held to secure employment 
 and assistance for these people; did you attend any of the meetings? 
 —A. I did not. 
 
 Q. All classes out there have given something to help them ?—A. I 
 don’t know anything about that. 
 
 Q. Have there been any appeals made in the papers for help ?—A. I 
 saw one appeal. 
 
 Q. Did you see this man Walker’s circular?—A. No, sir; I did not. 
 I saw him himself last Thursday night. He visited my office to have 
 a tooth extracted, and he said that nineteen more of these negroes had 
 come. I said, u Are there any others expected ?” and he said that on 
 Saturday they expected one hundred. 
 
 Q. That was last Saturday ?—A. Yes, sir; and he indicated to me 
 that he was the receiver of them. He said that some of those people 
 were very old and some were very young. 
 
 Q. Did you have any political talk with Walker?—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. State whether you had with any other colored people there ?—A. 
 I had with another colored man. I wish I could call his name. But he 
 was advertising for a clothing house there; I cannot remember the 
 name; but he told me these people were brought there under misrepre¬ 
 sentations; that they were promised two and two dollars and a half a 
 day; aud that nobody could get these wages there; that he had been 
 living there some time aud could not get it himself. I said, u Do you 
 think they are brought here to vote for the Republican ticket?” and he 
 said he thought so. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. He said he thought so ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Not that it was so, but that he thought so ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you expressed any opinion yourself upon that subject?—A. 
 No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. He gave no reason for his opinion ?—A. No, sir; but that is the 
 way the colloquy ran. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF M. T. LEWMAN. 
 
 M. T. Lewman sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Lewman, give your name and residence to the reporter 
 —Answer. M. T. Lewman, Greencastle, Putnam County, Indiana. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 163 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?—A. I am at this time sheriff of the 
 county. 
 
 Q. How long have you been sheriff?—A. I have been the sheriff for 
 three years last fall—October perhaps. 
 
 Q. You are serving your second term ?—A. f am in my fourth year, 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To dispose of one point that has been made here before we?go 
 further, please state to the committee what you know of persons con¬ 
 victed of felony, and sent to the penitentiary for petit larceny, and 
 give the amounts?—A. One case that was called to my mind was that 
 ot three parties, I think, or two of the parties were sent to the peniten¬ 
 tiary for stealing fifty cents, which they took out of a man’s pocket at 
 the fair grounds, making it a robbery that they were sent to the peni¬ 
 tentiary for. 
 
 Q. The larceny consisted in taking fifty cents ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you took them to the penitentiary ?—A. I am sure that I 
 have taken nobody to the penitentiary for that low amount myself. 
 
 Q. But that was the amount in this case?—A. Yes, sir; it was fifty 
 cents. 
 
 Q. What did they say was done with them ?—A. They were taken 
 to the penitentiary for two years. 
 
 Q. They were white people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was no great outcry made about it as to any great injustice 
 done them in that, was there?—A. No, sir; they were taken as pick¬ 
 pockets in the community, and were caught slipping round the fair 
 ground. 
 
 Q. Was there any emigration of that class of people on account of 
 that conviction ?—A. No, sir; not that I heard of. 
 
 Q. Now, I want you to go on and tell what you know of this emigra¬ 
 tion of negroes from North Carolina to Putnam County. How long have 
 you lived in that county?—A. I have lived in the neighborhood four¬ 
 teen or fifteen years. I have been in Greencastle and the county off 
 and on for twenty-five years. 
 
 Q. Have you an extensive acquaintance in that county?—A. There 
 may be some people there who have more acquaintances than 1 have, 
 but I believe I know every* prominent man in the county. 
 
 Q. It is one of the rich and highly cultivated counties of the State, 
 is it not?—A. Y r es, sir; it is what is called the center of the blue-grass 
 region, and we raise a great deal of stock in the county, and a great 
 deal of it is in grass. 
 
 Q. State whether there is any demand amongst the farmers or any¬ 
 body else in that county for labor beyond what can be supplied there 
 at home.—A. The only demand that we have had there during the 
 winter at all was a demand for mechanics. We had a little demand 
 for house carpenters for a while, as there were several good buildings 
 being put up in the town, but in the country there is no demand for 
 labor now at all. During the planting and harvesting and gathering 
 of the grain there is some demand, but now we have idle men there in 
 large numbers who supply that and more than fill it. You can look out 
 on the street at any time in Greencastle and see there white and black 
 standing on the corners. There was a gentleman in my office not long 
 ago who came from North Carolina to take two negroes back who had 
 written for him to come after them. He asked me the same question^ 
 and 1 told him just to look out of the window or door into the street^ 
 and he, I think, counted six who were in sight, and who belonged there 
 
164 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. What was his name, that gentleman from North Carolina ?—A. 
 Fields, I believe ; I am pretty sure that was his name. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Laugsdale, the editor of the Greencastle Ban¬ 
 ner ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what the politics of that paper is.—A. It is a Republican 
 paper. 
 
 Q. What is Laugsdale’s politics ?—A. Republican. 
 
 Q. What office does he hold under this administration ?— A. He is 
 postmaster. 
 
 Q. Where at ?—A. At Greencastle. 
 
 Q. What sized place is Greencastle ?—A. Well, sir, they claim G,000, 
 but I do not quite think there are that many, but I think there are 
 5,000, probably. 
 
 Q. It is the seat of the Indiana Asbury College, is it not?—A. Y r es, 
 sir ; w r e have the colleges there. 
 
 Q. And the Indianapolis and St. Louis and the Vandalia roads, 
 which are parallel roads, and the Louisville and New Albany roads 
 cross there ?—A. Yes, sir ; the two first are parallel lines and the other 
 crosses the two. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed any publications on this subject of the migra¬ 
 tion of negroes from North Carolina to Indiana in Langsdale’s paper, 
 and if so state when it was ?—A. I do not know as to the time of them. 
 The first I noticed on this subject I gave it at the time very little at¬ 
 tention. I just thought it was one of his foolish ideas, as Langsdale 
 was one of the extreme men in his party. We have extreme Democratic 
 editors and extreme Radical editors out there, aud so I paid very 
 little attention to what he said. I cannot give the contents of the 
 article, but it was in reference to the Republicans carrying the State 
 of Indiana, either that it could be or would be carried by the im¬ 
 portation of negroes from the South. It seems to me now that it was 
 something of that kind. I paid no attention to it at the time, and not 
 until some time afterwards. This first article was in italics, but I can 
 not give the contents of it. 
 
 Q. Have you any articles that appeared in his paper with you ?—A. 
 I have a copy of a letter that was put up at his office, so I understand. 
 The party I got it from was a negro, who said that Mr. Perry or Mr. 
 Williams, colored gentlemen from North Carolina, gave it to him. 1 
 understand from a party who knows that it was put up in Langsdale’s 
 office. I know the party who put up the type. 
 
 Q. What is your information as to who was the party who wrote it? 
 —A. Mr. Langsdale. 
 
 Q. Whose name is signed to it?—A. Mr. Clay, the pastor of the 
 church, a colored church there in our town. (The witness here passed 
 the paper to the chairman). One of the gentlemen stated that he helped 
 to set up the type and that it was written in Mr. Langsdale’s hand¬ 
 writing, and the name of Clay signed to it. 
 
 The Chairman. Just wait a moment, Mr. Lewmau, until I ask Mr. 
 Warnock a few questions. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 165 
 
 TESTIMONY OF - WARNOCK. 
 
 Mr. Warnock sworn and examined. 
 
 By tbe Chairman: 
 
 Question. (Passing tbe paper to tbe witness.) State if you ever saw 
 that paper before?—Answer. I did. 
 
 Q. Where at ?—A. In tbe Greencastle Banner office,while I was em¬ 
 ployed there. 
 
 Q. Are you a printer ?—A. Yes, sir; I am. 
 
 Q. Bid you help to set it up in that office ?—A. No, sir. I saw the 
 young man set it up. 
 
 Q. Whose handwriting was it in ?—A. The handwriting closely re¬ 
 sembled Mr. Langsdale’s. 
 
 Q. Would you have taken it for Langsdale’s handwriting?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You think now that it was his handwriting?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You say it was in his handwriting?—A. No, sir; I say it looked 
 like it. 
 
 Q. Bo you know the printer who set it up ?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. George 
 W. Moreland. t 
 
 Q. Bo you know that it is the custom of editors to frequently write 
 letters for their customers ?—A. I do not know as to that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Mr. Laugsdale had a very peculiar handwriting, had he not ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; you could not mistake it. 
 
 Q. And you say it was his ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Who was your employer?—A. Mr. Langsdale. 
 
 Q. Are you there with Mr. Langsdale now ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you leave there?—A. In September. 
 
 Q. What time did you say this was set up in that office? When did 
 you see it there?—A. It was two mouths, I suppose, before I left—dur¬ 
 ing the excitement over the exodus to Kansas. 
 
 Q. Why did you leave Mr. Langsdale’s employment ?—A. 1 was 
 offered more money at another place. 
 
 Q. Who by ?—A. Mr. Arnold, of the Star office. 
 
 Q. What are the politics of the Star?—A. It is Independent Green¬ 
 back, I believe. 
 
 Q. Are you still there ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you state whether the paper is for or against the exodus?— 
 A. I suppose it is opposed to it, as most of the people are. 
 
 Q. You have had no trouble with Editor Laugsdale, have you ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You simply made an exodus to the Star office to better yourself ?—■ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF M. T. LEWMAN RESUMED. 
 
 M. T. Lewman recalled to the stand. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Bo you know Mr. Warner?— 
 known him since 1 was a boy. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sii ; I have 
 
166 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You may state what his standing and character are.—A. I never 
 heard anything against him in my life, and 1 do not think he had any 
 knowledge of being subpoenaed here until he got the dispatch to come. 
 
 Q. You say you got this document from a negro ?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Bo you remember his name?—A. Mr. Mace, I believe. 
 
 Q. Where is he now?—A. At Greencastle. 
 
 Q. Is he an agent of this emigrant business?—A. No, sir; he is a 
 resident negro there, and has been there some time. A short time 
 after those letters were set up, perhaps a month afterwards, I got from 
 Mr. Arnold an inkling that there had been such articles as these dis¬ 
 tributed through the South, and that none of them were left there, so I 
 could not tell where to get one. I spoke to Mr. Mace after the first 
 batch, I think of fifty-six negroes, came there with the first lot. They 
 were all men, I believe, and there were no women with them but one, 
 and I talked with Mr. Mace and asked him to get me one of these let¬ 
 ters, and he got that from Mingo Simmons. It came from him, and I 
 think he came from about La Grange, North Carolina. 
 
 The Chairman. (Senator Voorhees) then read the following to the 
 committee: 
 
 INDIANA. 
 
 This is a rich State of fertile lands, with abuudant timber of every variety. The 
 climate is healthful, and is not too cold for me, although I was raised in Georgia. It 
 is just right. 
 
 Free schools are maintained from three to six months each year in every neigh¬ 
 borhood. . The blacks are admitted to these schools on the same terms as the whites, 
 or, as is usually the case in cities, they have separate schools with good teachers. 
 
 Our people already have numerous churches, and more are being built every year 
 by the help of our white friends, so that our church privileges are all that can be 
 desired. 
 
 In Indiana all stand equal before the law—the black man being protected in his 
 contracts, property, and person the same as the white. 
 
 Those of our race who come from the South and locate here have greatly improved 
 their condition, especially those who have engaged in farming. Thousands of good 
 farm hands and house servants can readily find employment at remunerative wages, 
 and when you have earned your money the law will compel payment, should it be 
 refused, which is not likely to be the case. What we want is honest, industrious men, 
 who know how and are willing to work on farms, and the same class of women to do 
 housework. Loafers are not wanted. 
 
 Don’t sell your horses and wagons at half price to pay your fare on railroads and 
 steamboats, but hitch up your teams and come overland to Indiana, like the children 
 of Israel marched out of Egypt. It will only take a short time to do so. All who 
 intend coming should do so daring the present summer and ensuing fait, so as to get located 
 in time to make their contracts with the farmers for next year. Such contracts are 
 best made before Christmas. Colored men already here will assist those who come in 
 obtaining work or situations. Persons who desire further information can obtain it 
 b&addressing me. But don’t wait to write; gather up what you have and come at 
 once, so as to be safe when the fifteenth amendment is repealed, for the purpose of 
 returning you to a condition of slavery if you are found south of the Ohio river. 
 
 JOHN H. CLAY, 
 
 Pastor Bethel Chapel, M. E. Church, Greencastle, lud. 
 
 Show this to our people in your neighborhood, and then keep it for future refer¬ 
 ence. 
 
 The Witness. This is an article (producing a paper) that went with, 
 that, I understood, and they were distributed together. I have under¬ 
 stood, from the negroes who came from North Carolina, that the two 
 were distributed together. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. This was all printed in the paper?—A. No, sir; that circular 
 sigued by Clay was not; it is a private circular. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 167 
 
 Q. When did this first one come into your hands ?—A. ISTot more than 
 a month ago. 
 
 Q. Did you learn how long it had been printed and put in circulation ? 
 —A. Only from Mr. Williams. 
 
 Q. What did he say'?—A. He came to my office, perhaps two or three 
 weeks ago, and I was in the auditors office at the time. My son brought 
 him in there and said there was a man who wanted to see me. I said to 
 him, “ What can I do for you ?” and he said, “I wanted to see you to get 
 the use of the court-house for to-night.” I said, “What for?” and he 
 said, “ Your people here do not seem to know why we have come up here 
 to Indiana”; and he said they wanted to hold a meeting in the court¬ 
 house to explain their objects. I said to him that I did not think it was 
 of any use to do that, and asked him, “Where do you live ? ” He says, 
 “I live here,” and I said, “ Where did you come from, and how long 
 have you beeu here ? ” He said he came from North Carolina, and had 
 been here three or four days. I said to him, “I do not think you are a 
 citizen enough to be treated as such,” and that the county board did not 
 allow the court house to go to the use of anybody but to citizens. I said, 
 “ What is your name?” and he said his name was Williams. I said, 
 “Are you P. C. Williams?” and he said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you the man 
 who sent these circulars out in the South among the negroes ? ” and Iffi 
 said, “ No.” I said, “ There is no use to deny it for I have the evidence, 
 and you are an intelligent man and a preacher, and I know you did do 
 it. You were here in September, and you aud Perry took them ; they 
 went out of the office with you, aud you took them to North Carolina.” 
 I was looking at him very straight; and thei^hesaid, “No, sir; I did 
 not, but Perry took 400 of them.” That was admitted to me by him 
 in the presence of Mr. Edwards. 
 
 Mr. Warnock was called to the stand for a question. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Mr. Warnock, do you remember when this circular was set up in 
 the Banner office?—A. It must have been July, I think, but I cannot 
 remember exactly the time. 
 
 Testimony of M. T. Lewman resumed. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Go on, Mr. Lewman, with your statement.—A. i understood from 
 Williams that Perry took them from there about the 1st of September, 
 but I may be mistaken as to the time. 
 
 The Chairman (Senator Yoorhees) then read to the committee the 
 following from the printed circular : 
 
 INDIANA AND THE EXODUS. 
 
 | From the Greeucastle (Indiana) Banner, September 25. 
 
 A party of colored refugees from Kentucky passed through here Thursday on their 
 way to Kansas, under the care of N. R. Harper, of Louisville. They arrivedjat 5 p. m., 
 and remained until 11, when they took the western train. While here they were taken 
 in charge by Rev. J. H. Clay and his congregation and entertained in Bethel Chapel. 
 They presented an intelligent appearance, and realized in every particular the impor¬ 
 tance of the step they were taking. The ruling idea with them was to buy land, and 
 this they think they can do more easily in Kansas, where lauds are cheap, than they 
 can in the older States. At the same time they concede the fact that it will be better 
 for those who haven’t money to buy land to stop in Indiana, Ohio, or Illinois, where 
 thpir labor on farms is in such demand at remunerative wages. They have an impres¬ 
 sion that they will be safe from persecution iu Kansas, and they were both surprised 
 and pleased to learn that they would be equally secure iu the more enlightened por¬ 
 tions of Iudiana. They stated that all the negroes iu Kentucky who are industrious 
 and have an ambition to better their condition will leave for the North during the 
 
168 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 present fall and winter, except the few who are led by deceptive promises from the 
 whites to remain. 
 
 We do not believe that they can do better than to come to Indiana. We need their 
 labor on our farms and in our households, and will pay them the cash for it. There 
 are no stores owned by the farmers here to cheat them out of their earnings. Here 
 they will have precisely the same opportunity and privilege that the whites have to 
 win fame and fortune, and they cannot do better than to settle among us. There 
 is scarcely a farm in Putnam County but that would be the better for their services. 
 In some parts of the county this year fields have been uncultivated for the want of 
 workmen. If the colored exodus from the South brings those to us, it will be better 
 for all concerned. 
 
 Three gentleman, living twenty miles away, came to town Thursday after colored 
 families to live on their farms, under the impression that the colored people to arrive 
 that day were to remain. When they learned that Kansas was tNeir destination, their 
 disappointment was very great. They each stated that they would be willing to fur¬ 
 nish a man with a house to live in, a garden, a cow to milk, firewood, and pay him 
 $15 a month cash. They further stated that the female members of colored families 
 could find constant employment in the neighborhood at good wages. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Go on and state to the committee what you know of that kind of 
 literature being sent South ?—A. I understood from the man that these 
 circulars had both been distributed very generally down there. After 
 1 got hold of this first one (I had to pay $7 for it) they told me they 
 both went together. I was anxious to get hold of it. It does not look 
 like it was worth the price ; but I wanted to see it and I bought it. 
 Simmons said he took an oath never to part with it except to Mr. Langs- 
 dale or Mr. Clay. I do not know whether that is true or not: but I 
 have only his word for it. I will say here that, in reference to that $15 
 a month, I am pretty generally over the county from time to time, and 
 pretty well acquainted with the farmers. My business before I went 
 into office was building, and employing a good many people. I have 
 been following the building business all my life, and I know the prices 
 of labor, and I have talked to a number of farmers since this exodus 
 has been coming into the county. It created quite a furor among not 
 only Democrats, but Republicans; but we have some extreme men in 
 our county, like Langsdale, who favor it. I have talked to farmers 
 about wages, and they toldjme that $10 would be the average price in 
 the county; but these negroes said they were promised $15 in the win¬ 
 ter and $20 in the summer. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the truth of the statement that a party 
 employing one of these emigrants would give him a house to live in, 
 and a cow and a calf, and probably drive the cow up for him to milk, 
 and give him his food; what kind of a statement does that look like? 
 —A. That is very overrated, I think. I do not think there is a laboring 
 man in the county who is getting anything like that. 
 
 Q. That is a very greatly overdrawn picture, is it ?—A. Of course it is. 
 
 Q. What do you put the daily wages at which men get, ordinary 
 laborers, where they board themselves, and what are the monthly 
 wages ? —A. With farmers, if they go to work on a farm, now, they get 
 50 cents a day, or $10 per month ; $12 is the pay for a very good hand. 
 Those negroes who came there—and there are a good number of them 
 that have landed in the county—I have made some inquiries of as to 
 what they were getting. Dr. Stevenson is a gentleman living just east 
 of our place and having 1,000 to 1,800 acres of land. 
 
 Q. He is a very rich man?—A. Yes, sir; worth half a million, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. He is a Republican, also ?—A. Yes, sir. Well, he had a lot of 
 them making rails for him. I understood he had 24 on his place at one 
 time, and that he had displaced some white men to put them in. I do 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 169 
 
 not know as to the truth of that; but I heard it; and he got them to 
 go on his place and make rails at 25 cents a hundred. I heard a negro 
 say so himself. I overtook one of them on the road and asked him 
 what he was doing. He said he was making rails for Dr. Stevenson, 
 and making them out of hickory wood. 
 
 Q. How many rails can a man make a day out of hickory wood ?—A. 
 I do not know, sir; I think not more than a hundred, anyhow. I also 
 heard them laughing about shucking corn for 20 cents a day. 
 
 Q. Then you think that they would be doing well there to make 25 
 cents a day ?—A. 1 do not think those that are there have averaged 25 
 cents a day. 
 
 Q. How many do you estimate have been landed there in the county ? 
 —A. I have put it at the lowest estimate at 250. 1 kept an account of 
 
 them pretty well until they got so many that I lost the run of them. 
 
 Q. When did the last lot come to the county ?—A. I think there 
 were a few of them last week. The last lots have been very small. 
 
 Q. Then the exodus seems tapering off?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many of those who have come there do you think have got 
 employment?—A. I expect a half of them have; I suppose not more 
 than that. I know I was down at the Indianapolis, Cincinnati and La¬ 
 fayette depot the other day, where I saw 21 of them in a room not 
 larger than this (about 18 by 20 feet). 
 
 Q. Where was that at ?—A. Year the north depot. They were living 
 in there at the railroad crossing, and were mostly women and children. 
 There were some men about, L believe. 
 
 Q. Did you see any stove in there ?—A. I did not see any stove in 
 there. How 1 came up there, I received letters almost daily from par¬ 
 ties down in La Grange, North Carolina, asking me if I would buy them 
 tickets and see that they got on the road back to North Carolina; but I 
 know very little about that part of the business, for I was busy, and I 
 told Mr. Allen, my deputy, to take out ray letters and answer them and 
 attend to them for me. lie knows all about it and can tell you. 
 
 Q. Was it in consequence of these letters that you were down there 
 at the depot?—A. Yes, sir; I was trying to see a woman that a gentle¬ 
 man wrote for, and as I was in that part of the town 1 just looked in 
 there to see if I could find her. 
 
 Q. Did you hud the woman ?—A. Mr. Allen did. She was down 
 there, but out of the room at the time I called. 
 
 Q. Tell us about whether they want to go back home to North Caro¬ 
 lina.—A. I am fully satisfied that quite one-half and possibly two- 
 thirds would gladly go back if they could get there. I have talked to 
 one or two, for they have been coming to my office to see about getting 
 letters written, but I turned it all over to Mr. Allen. 
 
 Q. Is he a deputy in your office ?—A. Yes, sir. Mr. Fields took two 
 of the negroes back, and he told me that every one that he had seen 
 from his place wanted to go back with him. 
 
 Q. When did Mr. Fields come to Greencastle ?—A. I cannot tell you; 
 it may have been three weeks ago, more or less. 
 
 Q. Where did he come from ?—A. La Grange, North Carolina, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. What are his politics ?—A. He came into my office one evening and 
 said, “Are you the sheriff of the county ? ” And I said, “ Yes.” And he 
 said, “ I want to ask you some questions with reference to those negroes 
 coming from our country up here,” and said he had been over to the 
 Banner office, and also said, “ I do not want to deceive you ; I am a Re¬ 
 publican.” I felt a little suspicious about talking to him, and I simply 
 
170 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 told him the facts, as I understood them, that there was no demand in 
 our county for labor; that a great many of our people were out of em¬ 
 ployment, and a great many were just living from hand to mouth and 
 almost starving. I told him that I had frequently of an evening let 6, 
 S, or 10 men go into the jail to keep them from freezing ; that they were 
 traveling through the place, going about and looking for work. We 
 have not had so many this winter, as it has been quite mild. I gave 
 him the situation. He said he had seen several of his hands who had 
 left him, and he said they were anxious to go back, and said, ‘‘ I have had 
 a mind to come and take every one of them back that left me.’ 7 He 
 seemed to have a plantation down there in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Did he take any ?—A. He took one. I went out to the plantation 
 with him after him. 
 
 Q. These were women or men ?—A. They were men. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he got reduced rates to bring them back?— 
 A. I do not know, sir. 1 got a letter from a party in Carolina, asking 
 just what amount of money it would take to bring them back. He told 
 me where he was to be found, and I knew him and where he was located. 
 I went to the railroad, and they said the lowest rate—1 did not go my¬ 
 self, but I sent Mr. Allen—was $20 from Greencastle to this point. I 
 said, u How is this; that it is only $16 from Indianapolis and $20 from 
 there ? ” And they said it was because of the local rate. 
 
 Q. How much did you pay coming here ! —A. I paid $16 from Indian¬ 
 apolis. 
 
 Q. What was the rate from Greencastle?—A. Twenty dollars. I 
 could not get a low rate for them t'o the points where they wanted to 
 go. , . 
 
 Q. How many of these people have gone back?—A. A number of 
 them from our county. There was one from the northern part of the 
 county, in Russellville Township; he started to walk, and Mr. Allen 
 saw him nearly to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Wootten or the Messrs. Woot- 
 ten Brothers?—A. Yes, sir; but I do not know the contents of it. 
 
 Q. Were there any of their employes who had left and gone up there 
 in that county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any of them come back ?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you see anybody about their coming back ?—A. 1 do not know 
 myself about that. Mr. Allen saw them, I think. 
 
 Q. What do you know of their health ? Are they not all huddled up 
 there in very close quarters ?—A. Well, sir, there have been four or five 
 deaths in our town among these people; three children and one woman, 
 aud I heard there was a man at Dr. Crow’s who was likely to die when 
 I left. 
 
 Q. You say that Dr. Stevenson, who was a prominent man in the 
 county, and at one time a candidate for lieutenant governor on the Re¬ 
 publican ticket, has employed some of these people; how many did he 
 have ?—A. He had 24, as I understood it. 
 
 Q. How many did the Crows have,?—A. They had several families, 5 
 or 6. 
 
 Q. Who was this—which oiie of the Crows ?—A. It was Joe. 
 
 Q. What are Joe’s politics ?—A. He is a ward politician. 
 
 Q. What are his politics ?—A. Republican. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any person not a Republican who has taken any 
 of these people to their places?—A. I do not know, sir, of any. I have 
 the names of some 50 or 60, and every one is a Republican except 
 Bridges. He has been a Democrat, and went off on this greenback idea, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 171 
 
 and is now, I think, up for nomination as trustee on the Republican 
 ticket in his township. He has been a Democrat, but I think has now 
 entirely left the Democratic party. He is much of a gentleman, never¬ 
 theless. 
 
 Q. What do you know of white men being discharged to make room 
 for these negroes ?—A. Only this : Ou Dr. Stevenson's place is a Mr. 
 Welcker, who is very much of a gentleman, and who had been up to 
 Bainbridge and made an arrangement with Mr. O'Hara for a house oh 
 the gravel road to live in, and when he went after it to occupy it he 
 found that they had let two negroes have it. 
 
 Q. You think, taking the average, that these negroes have not made 
 more than 25 cents a day since they have been in Indiana?—A. No, sir, 
 I think not. Some of them may have made more, but I have had a good 
 deal of information about them, and I do not think that they have made 
 on an average 25 cents a day. 
 
 Q. Did you make the acquaintance of Heath when he was out there ? 
 —A. No, sir j but I met him when he came there. 
 
 Q. Where at?—A. At the Vandalia depot; one night at the South 
 depot. 
 
 Q. At Greencastle?—A. At Greencastle, sir. General Manson, audi¬ 
 tor of the State, sent word to me that there would be a colored man 
 there that night or in the morning, who was the advance agent looking 
 out places to locate colored people, and I went down there to the depot 
 that night, and when he got off the train I had a talk with him. He 
 told me where he was from, and said he had been here to Washington 
 and stopped here awhile, 1 believe two weeks, with a gentleman of the 
 name of Adams, 1338 Y street, northwest. He said he had been there 
 as much as two weeks, and bad been at Indianapolis three or four days ; 
 maybe more. I gave him to understand that I was in favor of the exo¬ 
 dus. 1 do not know that that was strictly right, but I did that. I am 
 frank to say that I told him I was sympathizing with him very much. 
 He said they expected to have enough darkies in the State by the 1st 
 of May to carry the State for the Republican party. He said that one 
 of their objects was to get them from North Carolina before the 1st of 
 May to lessen the Republican vote there and increase it in our State. 
 He did not hesitate to talk about it, and to say that it was a political 
 movement. 
 
 Q. Whv did thev want them there bv the 1st of May ?—A. His idea 
 was that it should be before the 1st of May, and before the census was 
 taken. 
 
 Q. Was anything said about its bearing on the vote in Indiana ?—A. 
 He said that Adams and the parties he had been with here said they 
 would have enough to go to Indiana to carry the State, but that they 
 could not pay their way. I said, why is it that you do not pay your 
 own way? Cannot you get here without your way being paid ? And 
 he said they could not; that those who had horses would not leave them, 
 and did not want to come away; that it was only those whose w r av 
 would be paid that could be gotten to come. By the way he said, too, 
 that he went from here to Indianapolis iu the mail car. 
 
 Q. Did he go from Indianapolis to Greencastle in the mail car ?—A. 
 I think he did. 
 
 Q. Did you see him get out of it?—A. No, sir; I did not, but I think 
 he told me he had got out of it. 
 
 On motion, at this point the committee stood adjourned to Saturday, 
 January 31, 1880, at ten o’clock a. m. 
 
172 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 SEVENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Saturday, January 31, 18S0> 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Present, the chairman and all the members of the committee. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF M. T. LEW MAN, RESUMED. 
 
 M. T. Lewman, testimony of yesterday resumed. 
 
 Bv the Chairman : 
 
 Question. When we adjourned yesterday you were speaking of an in¬ 
 terview with a colored man of the name of Heath, and 1 think you re¬ 
 marked that you thought he came there in the mail car on the railroad ? 
 —A. I think so ; he told me he did. I told you that I did not see him 
 get out of the mail car myself. 
 
 Q. Who is the mail agent on that road ?—A. I do not think I can an¬ 
 swer as to that road. 
 
 Q. What road was it on ?—A. The Vandalia. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any reason why he traveled on the mail car ?—A. 
 I do not know that I can state that he did. 
 
 Q. How did he come to tell you about it ?—A. He was speaking of 
 how kind they were to him ; and speaking in the same connection, I 
 think he said he went over from here to Indianapolis in the mail car. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you whether he paid his fare while traveling in the 
 mail car f —A. He said he did not; that is my impression. 
 
 Q. He was carried through as mail matter, then ?—A. He simply said 
 that he came over in the mail car. 
 
 Q. And traveled free ?—A. He told me he traveled free. 
 
 Q. Did he not tell you that anybody franked him or deadheaded him 
 over the road ?—A. He told me he came free, but I do not remember his 
 exact language. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that he came free from Washington?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And had the accommodations of the mail car ?—A. I do not know 
 that he said anything of accommodations ; he said he met a gentleman 
 in Indianapolis named -Reynolds. 
 
 Q. That is a violation of law, is it not, to ride in the mail car ?—A. I 
 do not know, sir; I am not posted on that. 
 
 Q. Where is that man Heath, now ?—A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did he stay in and about Greencastle?—A. I under¬ 
 stood until next morning at 9 o’clock; I saw him no more that evening. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he went ?■—A. The last 1 saw of him was at a 
 hotel in the north end of the town. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he went when he left Greeucastle % —A. My 
 impression is that he went to Kansas, from what a gentleman there 
 told me, a Mr. Goodrich. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he came back ?—A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What do you know of his leaving a written statement on this sub¬ 
 ject at Indianapolis ?—A. I never saw it. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you he made it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that it is in existence from information ?—A. 
 The gentleman with whom the paper was left, Mr. Baker, I understand, 
 has it yet. 
 
 Q. What Baker is that ?—A. Mr. James E. Baker. 
 
 Q. What w r as the appearance of this man Heath ? Was he a full- 
 blooded colored man ?—A. He was a dark mulatto, but not a coal-black 
 man. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 173 
 
 Q. What degree of intelligence did lie manifest?—A. Nothing extra. 
 
 Q. Y r ou may repeat, as yon did last evening, what was said of the 
 purposes of this movement, so far as Indiana was concerned.—A. He 
 told me that his first object was to get to Kansas; it is a matter I have 
 not thought much about since, as it was long before this committee was 
 in existence or thought of; but he said that his intention when he left 
 home was to go to Kansas, but said he was sent out by friends at home 
 to look out homes for them, and he came to Washington and remained 
 one or two weeks, and gave the names of the parties with whom he 
 staid. 
 
 Q. One was the man named Adams?—A. Yes, sir; he said they 
 treated him kindly and asked him to stop at Indianapolis; and he said 
 he had letters to Mr. Martindaie; I am not positive as to whether he said 
 lie had any letters to Holloway, but I am certain as to Martindaie; he said 
 he staid there several days, and they asked him to come to Green* 
 •castle, and that he would find better accommodations down there in 
 Putnam County than he could find in Kansas; he asked me about the 
 county and chances for their getting labor, and I asked him why they 
 wanted to leave North Carolina; lie said one reason was to better their 
 condition, and another, he said, was that their friends here, Adams and 
 others, desired as many as possible of them to get out of North Carolina 
 and into Indiana before the census was taken, so as to decrease the rep¬ 
 resentation in North Carolina, and increase it in Indiana; this was the 
 substance of his language. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you how many it was contemplated to transfer in this 
 way by the 1st of May ?—A. I think he did, but I cannot say how many 
 it was. 
 
 Q. Give the best impression on your mind, if you have one?—A. I 
 think it was fully as much as 10,000, but I am not positive. 
 
 Q. He talked to you freely, supposing you to be a Republican?—A. 
 Yes, sir; that is true. 
 
 Q. Did he state who those letters were from recommending him to 
 Martindaie and Holloway ?—A. I think he only called one name here, 
 and that was Adams. If there was any other in Washington City, I do 
 not remember it. 
 
 Q. Were you aware at that time that Adams was secretary of the 
 Emigrant Aid Society?—A. No, sir; I was not. 
 
 Q. Did this man say anything at the time as to what Judge Martin- 
 dale and Holloway said to him about goingthere to Indiana, and about 
 raising monev for them ?—A. I am not certain whether the conversation 
 was as to Holloway or not, but he said they proposed to pay half of 
 their way. That was what he said in the conversation with me. 
 
 Q. This was all in the said conversation ?—A. I never had but one 
 with him. 
 
 Q. Judge Martindaie is proprietor of the Indianapolis Journal, the 
 leading Republican paper in the State?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Holloway is postmaster at Indianapolis?—A. Yes, sir; he is. 
 
 Q. And is a leading and prominent Republican ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Lewman. have you ever seen any Republican newspaper pub¬ 
 lished in Indiana condemning this emigration of North Carolina negroes 
 to our State?—A. I do not recollect of seeing one. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen that they failed to condemn this committee 
 for investigating the reasons why they left North Carolina for Indiana ? 
 —A. Ido not know that I have. I think they all of them go for you 
 and the committee. 
 
174 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What is the tone and position of the Greeucastle Banner on this 
 subject?—A. It has been opposing the investigation all the time. 
 
 Q. Now, sir, I want you to state the manner in which that lot of 50 
 or 60 negroes came to Greeucastle ! What citizens of the town went to 
 see them, to meet them, and marched up to town with them ?—A. 1 did 
 not see them myself, but I understood that word was brought that they 
 were on the road. I had it from Mr. Thomas Hanna, an attorney of our 
 town, and who is ex chairman of the Republican county central com¬ 
 mittee. He was chairman some time, but has been succeeded by another 
 gentleman. 
 
 Q. What office is he a candidate for now’ oh the Republican State 
 ticket?—A. For the nomination of lieutenant-governor, I believe, in 
 conversation with him—and I heard others state it—lie stated to me 
 this—that is, in speaking about the first batch; I stated yesterday that 
 it was 56; I believe it was sixty-odd—that batch of fifty-odd or sixty- 
 odd, Mr. Hanna telegraphed to Mr. Langsdale to come to Indianapolis 
 to make arrangements for them. Mr. Langsdale did not get the dis¬ 
 patch in time to go on the Vaudalia train, and he took the northern 
 road, and when he got to Indianapolis I understood that arrangements 
 were already made to get them to Greeucastle. 1 do not know what 
 amount was arranged for, but Air. Hanna said the money was arranged 
 for, and Langsdale came down to Greeucastle with them, aud when they 
 got off* at the south depot, as w T e call it, Mr. Langsdale aud Mr. Clay, 
 pastor of the church there, marched them up to the church and quar¬ 
 tered them there. 
 
 Q. You say they marched them up; do you mean that Langsdale 
 marched up with them ?—A. As I understand from those who saw him, 
 he marched at the head of the procession. 
 
 Q. Were they on foot?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far is it from the depot to the church ?—A. Fully half a 
 mile. 
 
 Q. Where is the church located?—A. It is near the college. 
 
 Q. And your understanding is that Langsdale marched up at the head 
 of them ?—A. 1 heard a uurnber say so, but I did not see that. 
 
 Q. Were they put into the Methodist church ?—A. They were, sir. 
 
 Q. And remained there all the time, did they not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there any of them there now?—A. Not of the first squad, I 
 reckon. 
 
 Q. But any, I mean ?—A. No, I think not; I think there are none in 
 the church nowy nor when I left home, but there were a good many about 
 town. 
 
 Q. You spoke of 20 of these emigrates being in a room not as large as 
 this ; do you know’ of any others in the same condition ?—A. Not to my 
 personal knowledge ; others know that better than I do. I have heard 
 of it, but don’t know it. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Mr. Lewman, you say you are a resident of Greeucastle ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a resident there ?—A. Well, sir, I believe 
 X have been there 14 years, a little over that permanently. 
 
 Q. What is the population of that county ?—A. What is the county ? 
 
 Q. Putnam. What is the population of Putnam County ?—A. The 
 last census was 23,000, I think, along there somewhere. 
 
 Q. Then it is about 23,000?—A. Yes, sir; about that. 
 
 Q. What is size of the county of Putnam ?—A. It is longer north and 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 175 
 
 south than it is east and west; it is perhaps 30 miles long and about 
 17 or IS wide. I do not know it exactly without making a calculation, 
 i may be mistaken about the width of it. 
 
 Q. How many square miles would that be ?—A. I never made a calcu¬ 
 lation of that, and without figuring it I would not say. 
 
 Q. That would be 510 square miles, if you have it right?—A. Yes, sir. 
 1 suppose so, but it is a matter I never figured over at all. 
 
 Q. That would be 326,400 acres 5 it is all good land ?—A. No, sir: not 
 all of it. 
 
 Q. What proportion is ?—A. I suppose three-fourths is what we call 
 good land ; then there is some hilly land in the southeast aud south¬ 
 western parts. 
 
 Q. Is that portion settled?—A. The hilly portion, yes, sir; it is all 
 settled ; the best part of our county is the north, northwestern, and west 
 and east portions. 
 
 Q. Is all the county settled ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it all improved?—A. Well, sir, there are some bodies of laud 
 that are not under cultivation; there is a good deal that is in timber. 
 
 Q. What portion of the county is under cultivation ?—A. I cannot 
 tell you exactly, but I should think one-fourth is under cultivation; a 
 great deal of the land there is in timber and in grass. 
 
 Q. What is the principal product of the county ?—A It is termed the 
 u stock county ” more than anything else, but we raise corn, wheat, 
 grass, and hay. 
 
 Q. Do you require a great deal of corn for your stock ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 but it is not unusual to buy corn from Illinois, but that is not so this 
 year ; there is a good deal of wheat sown this year, two or three times 
 more than I ever saw before. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say there are four or five thousand population in (Treencastle ? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; in that neighborhood ; our men claim more than that, but 
 I don’t think there are more; I don’t know what the last census of the 
 county was. 
 
 Q. Are there any other towns and villages in the county ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Please name them.—A. There is Bainbridge. 
 
 Q. What is its population?—A. I suppose something from 1,000 to 
 500. 
 
 Q. Which would you £ay?—A. 500 to 800 I could say. 
 
 Q. Name the next.—A. Cioverdale. 
 
 Q. What is its population ?—A. Not over 500. 
 
 Q. What is next ?—A. Beelsville. 
 
 Q. How many are there ?—A. A couple of hundred. 
 
 Q. Are there any others ?—A. Fillmore. 
 
 Q. How many are there?—A. The same number, about 200, maybe 
 300 and a few more. 
 
 Q. Are there any other towns ?—A. There are some small places, very 
 small post-offices, &c. 
 
 Q. What are the people in these towns mostly engaged in ?—A. They 
 are merchants, blacksmiths, carpenters, and laboring men. 
 
 Q. Are none of them farming?—A. Some of them live in town and 
 farm outside. 
 
 Q. Are they mostly railroad towns?—A. Bainbridge, Beelsville, 
 Cioverdale, and Fillmore are. 
 
 Q. You are very much crowded there in your State and county?— 
 A. I don’t say it is crowded. 
 
 Q. You said there were a great many people without employment !— 
 
176 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 A. Bat I stated we have three seasons when there is a demand for 
 labor. 
 
 Q. What are they ?—A. The planting, harvesting’, and corn-gathering 
 seasons. 
 
 Q. That would take up nearly all the summer, would it not ?—A. No, 
 sir; we don’t take all the summer to raise a crop of corn out there. 
 
 Q. What do they do in the spring time?—A. They are planting corn. 
 
 Q. Then there is the tending of it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does not that take pretty much all the season ?—A. The corn 
 planting and tending and harvesting run up to August; then October 
 and November they are gathering corn ; there is not so much demand 
 for labor after. 
 
 Q. Is there no demand for persons to take care of stock in winter ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; some. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by being overcrowded ?—A. My judgment is 
 and I am confident that we have no demand, certainly no extra demand, 
 for labor at this time. 
 
 Q. There is no demand for laboring people in your county ?—A. No, 
 sir; I say we have enough permanent citizens who are able to do all the 
 work and still leave others idle. 
 
 Q. You don’t want any more emigrants in your county ?—A. No, sir; 
 I won’t say that. 
 
 Q. If you are overcrowded and in a smothering condition we want to 
 advertise that to the world ?—A. I say I don’t think we need any more 
 laboring emigrants there. 
 
 Q. Does the Democracy want emigrants to come there or do they want 
 to keep them away ?—A. I don’t think that is the feeling of the Demo¬ 
 cratic party. 
 
 Q. Do they want them to come there ?—A. I think they do if they 
 come as regular citizens. 
 
 Q. Then you want these colored people to come there if they come in 
 that way ?—A.- Let me explain to you; the trouble seems to be that 
 there are people—or at least a dissatisfaction seems to be because they 
 are shipping these people there by the car load, and dump them down 
 upon our people, when they are not able to support themselves. There 
 is no objections to negroes coming there from the Southern States if 
 they come as other people, with means to support themselves, and do 
 not become a public burden. 
 
 Q. It is this immense number that you object to ?—A. Yes, sir; the 
 feeling has been excited by that. 
 
 Q. It is intense there, is it not ?—A. I cannot say it is. 
 
 Q. It is strong then ?—A. There is a good deal of it. 
 
 Q. When did this dumping begin?—A. I think the latter part of Sep¬ 
 tember, or it may have been in October. 
 
 Q. October, November, December, and January, four months; now it 
 was October when it began ; they have been dumping them in there by 
 the carload since October?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then when did they dump them ?—A. The first lot that came there 
 were fifty or sixty; then there was forty, and they have been coming in 
 as low down as fifteen. 
 
 Q. This immense number that have been dumped in there, ak you say, 
 by the car load is 250 all told ?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. And this you think an immense number to come in there in four 
 months ?—A. But it has created a good deal of excitement, and I think 
 it is a large number to come into a county in so short a time. 
 
 Q. I see by the newspapers that a great number of Irish people are 
 
177 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 likely to come to this country in a destitute condition ; do you object to 
 them coming to Indiana!—A. I think that would be like the others; if 
 they come there as others do I think we would not object to it, but if 
 they come as these negroes I think they would be treated the same as 
 they are. 
 
 Q. Even if contributions taken up are used to help them!—A. No, 
 sir; I don’t think they are similar cases. I don’t think I would object 
 to them, as it is an act of charity. 
 
 Q. Then it is an act of charity to the Irishman and uot to the negro ? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; it is an act of charity to the negro, too. 
 
 Q. Then why do you make a distinction ?—A. Because I understand 
 they are not bettered by coming there to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Do >ou think the Irishman would be bettered by coming there!— 
 A. If the.y are starving over there in Ireland, it would be an act of 
 charity for them to come to this country where they could get relief. 
 
 Q. But you have nothing for them to do in your county.—A. No, sir ; 
 we have nothing for them to do at this time. 
 
 Q. As I understand you, you have no work for them in Indiana!—A. 
 No, sir; if they wish work they should go somewhere else. 
 
 Q, Then you would say to them ro keep out of Indiana!—A. I think 
 there are better places for them. I am candid when I say to this com¬ 
 mittee that I do not think there is a demand for labor in Indiana at this 
 time. i 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You mean at this season of the year!—A. Yes, sir; principally. 
 I stated awhile ago that there was, during the winter, a fair demand for 
 mechanics in our town. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 «/ 
 
 Q. Then, Mr. Lewman, when we say that America is the laud of the 
 free and the home of the brave, and an asylum for the oppressed, we 
 must say with Indiana excepted !—A. No, sir; I do not say so. 
 
 Q. You say you have no work there for people coming into the State ? 
 — A. No, sir; there is no work at this time. 
 
 Q. Will you then advise this committee to say to the world, to these 
 people coming here from whatever point, that they should keep out of 
 Indiana?—A. No, sir; I would not think of advising this honorable 
 committee as to what it should do. 1 do not state that we are over¬ 
 stocked in Indiana, but I do say that there is no demand for labor there 
 now. I say there are times in tiie year when there is a demand for 
 labor. 
 
 Q. Do not you think that if there is no demand for labor, and no 
 work for people to do going there, that they had better keep out of the 
 State ?—A. No, sir; but I do not know that I can explain it any better 
 than I have done. 
 
 Q. Your conclusion is that there is no demand for labor there, and 
 that people emigrating had better keep out of Indiana?—A. I think I 
 have stated the fact that there is no demand for labor there. 
 
 Q. Then you would say to people emigrating to the West that they 
 had better keep out of your State?—A. That is true, sir; if they want 
 work and are destitute in their condition now. 
 
 Q. You said, 1 believe, that a great many of these people wanted to 
 go back ?—A. I do not know that a great many of them want to get 
 back, but I said a number of them did, and 1 say so .yet; there are i 
 number there who want to go back to North Carolina. This gentleman 
 from North Carolina, whom 1 spoke about awhile ago, stated that all he 
 
 II! EX 
 
178 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 bad seen from his place wanted him to take them back; and all I have 
 talked to myself, probably two dozen, said they would be glad to go 
 back, of intended to go back as soon as they got the means to go on. 
 
 Q. How many have you talked to on the subject ?—A. I think prob¬ 
 ably two dozen. I do not recollect of one that I talked to who did not 
 want to go back. 
 
 Q. What reason did they assign for wanting to go back ?—A. They 
 said that they could do better in North Carolina than there. 
 
 Q. I suppose you have heard of no threats and mobs and violence to 
 keep people from hiring these emigrants?—A- There was some talk of 
 that kind in the northwest corner of our county. 
 
 Q. Was anything done of that kind ?—A. There was something of 
 the sort, some talk, but 1 think no more, except that two houses were 
 burned there in Russellville Township, one of the largest townships in 
 
 the county. 
 
 Q. Was there anybody in either one of those houses when they were 
 burned?—A. No, sir; not at the time. One of them was owned by Mr. 
 Wilson, who is a Republican, and the township itself is a very strong 
 Rep u b 1 i ca i j township. 
 
 Q. Were there any negroes on his place ?—A. I think he had arranged 
 with them to come in there, and the house was burned several days af¬ 
 terwards. 
 
 Q. Was there any understanding as to whether that had anything to 
 do with the burning?—A. 1 made some inquiry about it, and there are 
 facts in connection with it that I would rather not state. I should not 
 like to say anything definite now about the burning of the house, as we 
 want to get at the fact of who the house was burned by. I do not think, 
 though, there are any Democrats living within a mile or two of the 
 house. 
 
 Q. They were living near enough to get there if they wanted to, were 
 they not?—A. Yes, sir; they might have burned it, I suppose. I was 
 not claiming that the Democrats out there in Indiana are saints. 
 
 Q. I had no such impression.—A. We have as good Democrats as 
 Republicans, and as good Republicans as Democrats there. 
 
 Q. What were the politics of these people who were making the 
 threats to burn the houses? Did you hear of any Republicans engaged 
 in that?—A. Only through others, I have heard that the laboring 
 Republicans in that township threatened to do it. 
 
 Q. What about the other house ? Had that man anything to do with 
 hiring these negroes?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he a Republican?—A. No, sir; he was a Democrat. 
 
 Q. Did he have any connection with this emigrant business?—A. 
 No, sir; I have heard it said why the house was burned, but that is all. 
 I do not know anything about it. 
 
 Q. What was the nature of the threats about which you testified ?— 
 A. Well, sir, we have men there who are reckless, Democrats and Repub¬ 
 licans alike, and I have heard threats from both sides. They are men 
 of a low class generally, and I paid no attention to what they said. 
 
 Q. Did you ever read any Democratic newspapers in which such a 
 thing was hinted at?—A. I think 1 have, some little sketches. 
 
 Q. So it was not a low class of people that made these threats, but 
 some good people were concerned in them?—A. I think I have heard 
 of such a thing. 
 
 Q. How far is Shelbyville from Greencastle ?—A. It is 75 miles from 
 our place. 
 
 Q. What do you know of that mob that was reported down there ?— 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 179 
 
 A. 1 do not know anything except what was if) the papers. J do not 
 know that I have talked with any gentlemen about it. 
 
 Q. You said yesterday that you did not know of any person, save one, 
 who had employed any of these people who are not Republicans!—A. 
 Yes, sir; 1 mean the new ones. The resident colored men are em¬ 
 ployed there by our people indifferently. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that that man was a Democrat, but is 
 pretty nearly a Republican now ?—A. He used to be a Democrat, and 
 he went off' with the Greenback party, and I understand is now a can¬ 
 didate for nomination as trustee on the Republican ticket. 
 
 Q. From the character of your people there, as you know them from 
 being their sheriff, what do you think would be the effect of threats of 
 violence and these house burnings and mobs on the demand generally 
 for colored labor ?—A. We have had no such general threats and mobs 
 in our county. 
 
 Q. It was understood, was it not, in the county that the house was 
 burned for that reason!—A. Yes, sir; and I will say that two or three 
 colored men left the county on that account. 
 
 Q. Would not such threats and the general understanding that houses 
 were being burned that were prepared for colored emigrants have a 
 natural tendency among the people to discourage them from employing 
 these emigrants!—A. I think probably it would. 
 
 Mr. Windom. It would in most countries, I think. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to that now!—A. I think I assented to 
 your proposition. I think certainly it would have that tendency. 
 
 Q. And it would rather have a tendency to make some of these people 
 want to go back home!—A. Yes, sir; I think it would, but do not un¬ 
 derstand, Senator, that that condition of things as you put it is the case 
 in our county. 
 
 Q. You stated that they burnt one house a day or two after a man 
 rented it to a colored man ; that was in your county was it nut !-»—A. 
 Yes, sir; but all that excitement has subsided now. 
 
 Q. And you have seen the same sort of suggestions in the newspapers! 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And heard these threats from the lower classes ! —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think all these things would have a tendency to discour¬ 
 age the demand for their labor !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Youjsay that Williams wanted the court-house to hold a meeting 
 so that these people could state why they were coming to Indiana, and 
 you would not let them have it because you did not think it was neces¬ 
 sary !—A. That was one cause, sir. Then we have a county board of 
 three commissioners, and they have instructed me only to let parties 
 have the use of it on public occasions, and then only to residents of the 
 county. I did not think that Williams was a resident of the county, 
 and he is not now. 
 
 Q. Certainly that was a public occasion, was not it, when they wanted 
 to hold a public meeting?—A. You might term it a public occasion. 
 Another thing was that I did not know him any way. 1 told him if lie 
 would see Mr. Langsdale and Mr, Clay, and they came round, and they 
 certified him as a citizen, he might get it. 
 
 Q. Did not Mr. Clay afterwards make application for it ?—A. 1 under¬ 
 stood he did. 
 
 Q. And to your deputy!—A. Yes, sir; to Mr. Allen. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Langsdale join him in the request!—A. I understood so. 
 
 Q. Do you know why they did not get it?—A. No, sir. 
 
180 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What paper is it that you said you paid $7 for ?—A. For both of 
 them. 
 
 Q. You said that the paper that you had there and produced to the 
 committee did not look like it was worth what you paid for it!—A. I 
 do not know r as it is. 
 
 Q. Then you were cheated !—A. No, sir; I do not know that I was. 
 I was trying to get at the secrets of this matter. I had a curiosity to 
 know what these articles were. 
 
 Q. These secret articles here were all of them published in the news¬ 
 papers, were they not ?—A. 1 think they were. 
 
 Q. And there was nothing secret about them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you heard-that these others were lying around loose in the 
 Greencastle Banner office?—A. No, sir; I nev r er heard of it, if they 
 were. We never could get hold of them, if they were. 
 
 Q. And you paid $7 to get hold of this one?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To gratify your curiosity ?—A. No, sir; I wanted to see what it 
 was. There had been a great deal of excitement among our people over 
 the coming of these North Carolina negroes. I have not been examined 
 before committees of this sort much, and I am in the habit of stating 
 facts while on the witness stand ; but f would say there has been a good 
 deal of excitement about the negroes coming into our county, and it is 
 prett-.v generally believed, especially among the Democrats, that it was 
 a political movement. 1 had heard about these papers or letters or cir¬ 
 culars, and 1 felt a curiosity to see them, and thought that if it was a 
 fact that there was a political purpose in bringing these negroes there 
 it was important not only to the laboring men of our county but to the 
 laboring negroes of the South that they should know of it. 
 
 Q. You did what you did as a Democrat?—A. Y r es, sir; as a Demo¬ 
 crat and a citizen. 
 
 Q. Have you not been very active in this, Mr. Sheriff ?—A. I do not 
 know that I have been overly active. I have bsen active to get at the 
 facts. 
 
 Q. Y r ou have not been opposed to this exodus movement, have you?— 
 A. Y'es, sir, 1 have; and have denounced it wherever [ could. Laying 
 all politics aside, putting them entirely out of the question, I have de¬ 
 nounced it and called it a fraud. 
 
 Q. It is not a very easy thing for you to do, is it, to lay your politics 
 aside?—A. I suppose I would be in that matter like yourself; I am a 
 Democrat. 
 
 Q. Well, I understand that you Democrats out there are opposed to 
 their coming?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q Now do you find anything in that paper to interest you after [lay¬ 
 ing $7 for it?—A. I do not know, sir, that I did particularly. 
 
 Q. What is there in it except a little exaggeration ?—A. I think there 
 is a great deal of exaggeration in that last article about the amount of 
 pay and the inducements to be given to these people. I know all that 
 is exaggeration. 
 
 Q. How about the secret one signed by Clay ?—A. There is matter in 
 that about the fifteenth amendment being repealed ; that is all exag¬ 
 geration. I do not think there is the least danger of that in the world. 
 1 never have and do not think so now. 
 
 Q. Do not you think that in some localities it is possible to nullify it 
 quite as much as .if ou wmre to repeal it?—A. I do not think, Senator, 
 it will ever be touched in the world. 
 
 Q. 1 think I have your objections to these tw r o papers. You told us 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 181 
 
 something about meeting 'a certain Mr. Heath ; what time in the day 
 did you meet him ?—A. It was in the night, I think near one o’clock. 
 
 Q. Were you at the depot when the, train arrived ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he alone ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the first thing said between you and him ?—A. I spoke 
 to him and said good evening. 
 
 Q. You were looking for him?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who told you to look for him ?—A. A gentleman named Baker— 
 James Baker. 
 
 Q. He had come down from Indianapolis?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who did he bring word from?—A. John Manson. 
 
 Q. Who is he ?—A. The auditor of the State. 
 
 Q. Is he a Democrat?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you why he and the auditor had been following this 
 colored man over the State?—A. Yes, sir. He said that this man had 
 come on to make arrangements for locating these exodusters, and was 
 coming to our county for that purpose. 
 
 A. And you were requested to look after him ? —A. Yes, sir; and 
 have an interview with him. 
 
 Q. You said good evening to him?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did lie say ?—A. He asked if I could show him to the post- 
 office, and I said I was going right there. 
 
 Q. Did you go with him ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You took him to the post-office?—A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Did he ask you to show him the postmaster?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you tell him that you were the postmaster?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you tell him that you were a Republican?—A. No, sir; I 
 don’t know as I told him I was; but I asked him if he was named 
 Heath, and he said, u Yes”; and I said I was looking for him, and he 
 asked me how I knew he was coming, and I said I heard it from Indian¬ 
 apolis. 
 
 Q. You said you led him to believe you were a Republican ?—A. I 
 did, sir, from my conversation. 
 
 Q. You deceived him about that?—A. Yes, sir; I am compelled to 
 say,in truth, that \ did. 
 
 Q. Did he bring any letters with him?—A. No, sir; he had some 
 little slips of paper, on which were the names of parties he was to see. 
 
 Q. Who were they ?—A. These are the papers; I have them here. 
 (The witness produced several slips of paper.) 
 
 Q. Did he give these to you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what point in conversation did he give you these papers?—A. 
 I suppose we had been talking three quarters of an hour when he gave 
 me those papers. 
 
 Q. You had been talking a half an hour at least?—A. Yes, sir; three- 
 fourth's, perhaps. 
 
 Q. And he asked you to show him the way to the post-office?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you take him ?—A. I took him to a hotel after he left 
 my office. 
 
 Q. Did he suppose, at the time, that he was in the sheriff’s office?— 
 A. I don’t know, sir; 1 don’t think he did. 
 
 Q. Did he talk to you as though you were the postmaster?—A. No, 
 sir; I told him I had been selected to meet him; that the postmaster 
 was not in at that time of night. 
 
 Q. Y r ou and him talked together freely?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was anybody else there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
182 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. To what hotel did you take him ?—A. To Sage’s, down at the 
 north end of the town. 
 
 Q. Yon say nobody saw you and him when you were holding this con- 
 versation ?—A. No, sir; there were two or three parties at the depot. 
 The night porter, Mr. Floyd, aud two policemen there, and a young 
 man named Richardson. 
 
 Q. Did they hear the conversation ?—A. No, sir. Mr. Baker was 
 there too. 
 
 Q. Did he hear it ?—A. Mr. Baker may have heard the first words 
 that were spoken. I don’t think either of the others did. 
 
 Q. At what time of night did you leave him at the hotel ? It must 
 have been between three and four o'clock in the morning ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 but I am not sure as to the time. It might have been three or four 
 o’clock. 
 
 Q. You were with him from the time he got into town until three or 
 four o’clock in the morning?—A. Y r es, sir; about two hours altogether. 
 
 Q. He was with you in your office, you say, one houf ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do with him when you took him to the hotel ?—A. 
 I told the proprietor to give him a room. 
 
 Q. Did you pay for it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you kuow who did ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, Do you kuow whether it has been paid for ?—A. I think I have 
 heard Mr. Sage say it has been paid. 
 
 Q. Do you know who paid it?—A. No, sir; I think it was paid by 
 some Democrats, but I don’t know that it was. 
 
 Q. What time did he leave?—A. I think he left about nine o’clock 
 the next morning. 
 
 Q. Was not that the understanding between you, that he was to leave 
 the next morning?—A. No, sir; he was to see me the next morning. 
 
 Q. Did you see him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you kuow anybody who did ?—A. I think I do. 
 
 Q. Who was it ?—A. Mr. Bridges. 
 
 Q. What is he, a Republican or a Democrat?—A. He is a Democrat. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you say to him that he had better get out of town pretty 
 quick or the ku-klux would get after him ?—A. No, sir, I did not, for 
 I promised to see him the next morning. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of anybody who did tell him that ?—A. No, sir; not 
 a word of it. 
 
 Q. He did leave pretty suddenly ?—A. Yes, sir; he went away on the 
 nine o’clock train. 
 
 Q. You were to meet him the next morning?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of any intimidation of this man, or any intimatiou of 
 what frightened him off?—A. Yes, sir; I heard that Mr. Bridges told 
 him he had fallen into the hands of a Democrat instead of a Republican. 
 
 Q. Did you hear that Mr. Bridges said anything to him about ku- 
 klux ?—A. No, sir; if he had done so I think he would have told me. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you, as the Democratic sheriff, get up a good deal of a con¬ 
 spiracy with him to flood the State with these negro voters ?—A. I told 
 him they were needed by the Republican party, and asked him how we 
 were going to get them, and how many. I told him how much we 
 needed, and he said there was no doubt about our getting them, if we 
 would pay half their expenses. 
 
 Q. You rather pledged the Republican party to bring them on there? 
 —A. No, sir; I think not; I asked him if they could not pay their own 
 way; aud he said that maybe some of them would. I think the lan- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 183 
 
 gnage he used was that those who had horses and places would uot 
 come; and that those who did not could not get the money to come on. 
 
 Q. You stated, I believe, that it would take about ten thousand voters 
 to turn the scale in Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir; but I wish to state, in order 
 to do him and myself justice, that he was first going to Kansas. But I 
 think he said he was advised to stop there by people in Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. You don’t know who those Indianapolis parties were?—A. No, 
 sir, except from him; and lie only named one party. 
 
 Q. You are sure he said something of that sort, before you intimated 
 • to him that they needed colored people to secure the State for the Re¬ 
 publican party ?—A. I think he did. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that it was your suggestion that you could carry 
 the State that way ?—A. I think not*. 
 
 Q. Was it you who mentioned the ten thousand voters to him ?—A. 
 I think it was him. I think he said that he could get any number that 
 was wanted ; and they wanted ten thousand. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you say that he suggested it?—A. No, sir, I don’t think he 
 did. He said he could get any number if you would pay half their fare. 
 
 Q. You communicated this conspiracy to Governor Hendricks, did 
 you not?—A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Do you know who it was that communicated it to him ?—A. No, 
 sir; I don’t think I have had any communication with him since then. 
 
 Q Do you know whether this interview between you and Heath 
 reached the governor’s ears at all ?—A. I cannot tell you. 
 
 Q. How long was it before he made his speech that there was a con¬ 
 spiracy between the Republicans to flood the State with colored voters 
 that you had this interview with Heath ?—A. I am not able to state 
 that. 
 
 Q. Were you surprised when you learned that Heath had gone? And 
 did you go around there to see him ?—A. No, sir. I learned he had 
 gone before I went down there. 
 
 Q. Who told you that he had gone?—A. Mr. Bridges. 
 
 Q. What reason did Mr. Bridges give you for his going ?—A. I do 
 not know that I can state just what was said on that occasion. 
 
 Q. Can’t you remember it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you remember the substance of it?—A. He said he told him 
 he had fallen into the hands of a Democrat; and that he seemed 
 anxious to go away, and that he jumped on the train and left. 
 
 Q. Did he tell him that you was a member of the ku-klux?—A. 
 No, sir; Mr. Bridges did not say so. 
 
 Q. The fact that you were a Democrat was enough to make him go ? 
 —A. A r es, sir ; it seems so. 
 
 Q. Have you seen him since ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He was rather an ignorant man, was he not ?—A. Y r es, sir. He 
 was not a low nigger, but rather of a medium character. 
 
 Q. These are all the papers that he showed you ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Just these little slips ?—A. Yes, sir ; that is all. 
 
 Q. State what he said as to his interviews with people in Washing¬ 
 ton ?—A. I think he said his first intention was to go to Kansas: but 
 he stopped here, and, meeting this man Adams, he was persuaded to 
 stop at Indianapolis, and from Indianapolis he was sent to Greencastle; 
 and that parties told him they wanted a certain number of negroes from 
 North Carolina in Indiana to lessen the number of Republican votes 
 out there and increase it in Indiana. 
 
 Q. You stated, I believe, that he did not tell you who they were who 
 said that ?—A. No, sir. 
 
184 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Have you ever beard anything since of this man Heath?—A. 
 I have seen an article in the Banner purporting to be from him ; blit J 
 do not think it is from him. 
 
 Q. What is that ?—A. It purports to be a letter to the editor of the 
 Banner and the postmaster ; but I do not think it is from him, from the 
 language used in it. 
 
 Q. You haven’t got that, have you?—A. No, sir; there was only a 
 mention of it in the Banner. 
 
 Q. Has Mr. Bridges ever heard of him ?—A. No, sir ; I think not. If 
 he had, I think he would have told me. 
 
 Q. Did you and Mr. Bridges think that was the right sort of way to 
 do, to meet an old darkey and frighten him out of your county in that 
 way ? Are those the Democratic, tactics in your county ?—A. Not as a 
 general thing; but this seemed to be a desperate case. 
 
 Q. W T hat was the character of that affidavit that he left at Indianap¬ 
 olis ?—A. I only heard of it, sir. 
 
 Q. You had nothing to do with the getting of it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You only heard of it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You don’t know where he is now ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Windom. I do, and I want him summoned. 
 
 Senator Voorhees. Where is he? 
 
 Senator Windom. In Saint Louis. 
 
 Senator Voorhees. Then I will summon him whenever you desire. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You stated that his object was first to go to Kansas ?—A. Yes, sir* 
 
 Q. And that he was induced by Adams to stop at Indianapolis ?—A* 
 Y r es, sir; by Adams and others. 
 
 Q. You went out of the conspiracy business with him. You have not 
 heard anything more of him ?—A. No, sir; except what I heard of him 
 in this article in the newspaper. 
 
 Q. Who had anything to do with this dreadful conspiracy besides 
 yourself?—A. I was not in any conspiracy. He was giving his object, 
 and I was agreeing with him for a purpose. 
 
 Q. But, so far as he understood it, you and he were in a conspiracy 
 together?—A. He may have so understood it. 
 
 Q. You were working up a conspiracy to flood Indiana with negro 
 voters?—A. No, sir; there was nothing.of the sort said in the conver¬ 
 sation I spoke of. 
 
 Q. What did he say that Mr. Martindale said to him?—A. I do not 
 know as I can give you any more than that he was one of the parties 
 who directed him to Greencastle. 
 
 Q. Who was the other party?—A. I think it was Mr. Holloway, but 
 I am not positive as to that. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything more about raising money, except what you 
 said to him ?—A. There was nothing of that sort said, except that he 
 said they would have to have half their way paid. He said they could 
 not be brought there without somebody paid half their fare. 
 
 Q. Did he, in this confidential conversation with you, mention any one 
 who was raising money for this purpose?—A. No, sir; I do not think 
 that I could state that he did. 
 
 Q. Yon say you talked together two hours?—A. Yes, sir; I was 
 trying to get this information. 
 
 Q. And you had his confidence, thoroughly ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he talked freely with you?—A. Yes, sir; I think he did. 
 
 Q. And you, while trying to get this information, and having his con- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 185 
 
 fidenee, (lid not get the names of any parties who were raising money 
 for this purpose?—A. No, sir; he mentioned the names of parties here, 
 and said they would help; but I do not know that he mentioned any¬ 
 body who was raising money. 
 
 Q. Did he express any hope of getting it from any source ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; he seemed to think they would help him. 
 
 Q. Where were those people ?—A. Some were here, and some were 
 in Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you who they were?—A. Yes, sir; I asked him about 
 Indianapolis, and my impression is that he spoke of Martindale and 
 Reynolds. 
 
 Q. Who is Reynolds ?—A. He is the mail ageut there. 
 
 Q. He did not mention these names as the names of men who were 
 going to furnish money, did he ?—A. No, sir; I don’t think he did. 
 
 Q. Did he seem to think those people could be brought without money, 
 in this conspiracy you and him were raising?—A. He said they could 
 not come without half of their way being paid. 
 
 Q. He looked to you to help him, did he not?—A. He looked to the 
 Republican party. 
 
 Q. You did not understand that he had made any arrangement with 
 anybody to bring them?—A. No, sir ; I do not think he had. 
 
 Q. But he expected you to help him?—-A. Yes, sir;. I think from the 
 questions he asked that lie expected help, because he said they could 
 not get there without we paid half their way. 
 
 Q. From ail he said, you inferred that he had no arrangement for 
 money to get them there?—A. I am inclined to think that he had none. 
 
 Q. W r here is the gentleman who saw him after you did ?—A. He lives 
 in our town. 
 
 Q. Have you had frequent conversation with him since?—A. I have 
 talked to him some since. 
 
 Q. Did you talk to him pretty freely, after this colored man left there 
 so unceremoniously?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say he told him in the conversation that frightened 
 him out of town?—A. I think it was a very short conversation lie had 
 with him. 
 
 Q. It was short, sharp, and decisive?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. W as he very much amused as to the effect his conversation had 
 upon this man ?—A. I think he was a little amused. 
 
 Q Did he mention or describe the effect that alarming statement, 
 that he had fallen into the hands of a Democrat, upou Heath ?—A. He 
 may have done so, but I do not remember. 
 
 Q. You say that you do not recollect hearing any Republican news¬ 
 paper that denounced the exodus; how many do you read?—A. Ido 
 not read very many Republican newspapers. I read the journals occa¬ 
 sionally, and the Cincinnati Commercial, and our county papers; some¬ 
 times the Terre Haute papers, and sometimes the Saint Louis papers. 
 
 Q. You don’t confine yourself very much to Republican intelligencers? 
 —A. No, sir; I don’t take but one Republican paper regularly. 
 
 Senator Vance. You don’t think you could stand two of them ?—A. 
 I do not know; but probably I could. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 tv 
 
 Q. You say, in the first batch, there were fifty or sixty who came ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. And you talked to Mr. Hanna as to how they came there?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
186 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 Q. He said that money was raised to take them to Greeucastle, but 
 did he say where they found them ?—A. lie said to me, in conversation, 
 that somebody had telegraphed to Laugsdale to come there and meet 
 them in Indianapolis; but that they had started from there before he 
 had arrived. 
 
 Q. Langsdale, you say, was a radical man?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He held that the negro was not well treated in the South, and 
 ought to come to the North ?—A. Yes, sir: that is his idea. 
 
 Q. Then it was very natural, was it not, to telegraph to .so pronounced 
 a friend of the colored people to help them ?—A. 1 don’t know, sir; but 
 I know he had written a letter, which was published in the Indiauapolis 
 Leader, stating that he would find homes for all who came. 
 
 Q. Then that is the reason, probably, that he was telegraphed to?— 
 A. I don’t know, sir; I kuow 1 read his letter. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any connection between Republicans and this 
 movement, except that which is of an industrial and charitable nature ? 
 —A. Not from what I know, except from my conversation with Heath. 
 
 Q. That is all the information you have?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You kuow of no direct connection of any prominent Republican 
 with it?—A. I do not know of it directly ; but it is the general talk. 
 
 Q. You mean that is the general suspicion in your party?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. But when you get down to the facts there is nothing in it ?—A. I 
 have given you all I think about it. 
 
 Q. Y r ou kuow of no money that has been raised for these immigrants, 
 except for temporary support ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. And that money was for stranded people who were in need ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I think there was some money raised by them for some who 
 wanted to start back home. 
 
 Q. That was Democratic money, wasn’t it ?—A. Y"es, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of Democratic efforts to get women and 
 children to go back, so as to leave the impression that the Republicans 
 wanted to keep them there to vote ?—A. I know that they are very des¬ 
 titute, and that our Republicans said that they would not raise money 
 to help them to get back. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything of a large number of Republicans who said 
 anything about there being no employment for these people ?-—A. I ex¬ 
 pect I have heard two hundred say that. 
 
 Q. Give us the names of as many as you can ?—A. It would be a hard 
 job to give you the names of a good many. 
 
 Q. Give us all you can ?—A. There were two of the Williamses, Mr. 
 Welker, the man I spoke of yesterday. I believe I have heard Mr. 
 Hanna, in his way, speak of there not being employment for them ail. 
 There were two or three of the Grows who were not, I think, in favor of 
 the movement. 
 
 Q. Arethoseall ?—A. No, sir; Mr. Will Fipps I have heard speak of it 
 to a number of men down by the mill. I heard them also speak of it; 
 but I don’t know that I could give you the names in full. 
 
 Q. They were mostly people about town?—A. YYs, sir; but some of 
 them lived in the country. 1 mentioned some who lived there. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say you saw a squad of twenty in a room no larger than this ? 
 —A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they recent arrivals ?—A. No, sir ; they had been there some 
 time. 
 
 Q. Did they find employment?—A. I think some of the men did. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 187 
 
 Q. What proportion of the two hundred and fifty who arrived there 
 were women and children ?—A. It would be difficult for me to state. 
 
 Q. Ar’n’t they people who generally have large families?—A. I think 
 the first lot of fifty or sixty were all men but one. Then of the balance 
 I think one hundred and twenty-five—well, probably not that many, 
 were men. 
 
 Q. How many of them have not found employment ?—A. I could not 
 tell you. 
 
 Q. How many do you know have found employment ?—A. I know 
 where probably fifty or sixty have been located. 
 
 Q. Do you think you know all who have been employed?—A. I think 
 I do. Those who are not employed are about town, and may get a day’s 
 job now and then. When I speak of employment, I mean steady em¬ 
 ployment for those out in the country. There are forty or fifty, per¬ 
 haps sixty, who are living with parties in the country. 
 
 Q. You say that Heath talked about improving his condition by com¬ 
 ing to Indiana; what did he say ?—A. He said that his idea was that 
 they could better their condition by coming West. 
 
 Q. Did he make any complaint as to his treatment in North Caro¬ 
 lina ?—A. Yes, sir; he said they could not get money for their work, 
 and had to take their pay in orders out of the stores. 
 
 Q. He complained about the order system ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he complain of any other bad treatment, political or social ?— 
 A, I think, perhaps, he did. 
 
 Q. Did he complain of any discrimination between the whites and the 
 blacks in the administration of the laws?—A. If he did, I have forgot¬ 
 ten it. / 
 
 Q. Did he say there was general dissatisfaction among his people?— 
 A. He stated that a large portion of them would come if they could get 
 North ; and you may term it dissatisfaction or not. But 1 believe he 
 said nearly all would come if half their fare was paid, except those who 
 had teams and property. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t it a fact that when so many of those people came a long 
 distance in.such a condition, and with so many women and children, it 
 sort of mollified your party in its ideas as to the political character of 
 
 the movement ?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. Hasn’t it occurred to you that if the Republican party was doing 
 this as a political movement, they would not go so long a distance and 
 bring such large families all the way from Indiana in order to get one 
 man to vote the Republican ticket ?—A. I think I have argued that 
 out. The reason was to keep the men there, who would not stay there 
 without their families. 
 
 Q. Couldn’t they have brought them cheaper by the Mississippi river 
 and your Vandalia line ?—A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Couldn’t they have brought them by the Vandalia line for five 
 dollars a head ?—A. 1 don’t know as to that. 
 
 Q. You know there is a good deal of satisfaction down there in Mis¬ 
 sissippi and Louisiana among the colored people?— A. That is the 
 newspaper report, and that is all I have heard of if. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think it is an unwise policy in the Republican party for 
 them to colonize the State by taking the people from North Carolina, 
 and not from Mississippi and Louisiana?—A. I don’t know, sir, as to 
 their objects. 
 
 Q. Assuming the idea of your party, that this movement has been 
 created for political purposes, do you not think it would be better pol- 
 icv to take them from Louisiana and Mississippi than trom North Caro- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 18S 
 
 1 
 
 ina?—A. Unless the reason is as has been stated here, it would be 
 better; but it has been said here by colored Republicans that North 
 Carolina is a safe Republican State, and they can spare them from 
 there. 
 
 Q. Couldn’t they spare them from Kentucky ?—A. I don’t know. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that Kentucky is a large Democratic State ?—A. 
 You know it has been going down some here of late. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think it is an absurd proposition 'that the Republican 
 party should go to North Carolina and do this thing to the disgust of its 
 own people in Indiana?—A. I. do not think the Republicans are dis¬ 
 gusted with the negroes; but they are disgusted with this system of 
 bringing them out there and putting them on the tax payers without 
 anything to support them. We have to feed them and to shelter them, 
 and so they are objected to by Democrats and Republicans alike. 
 
 Q. Do you think their coming is likely to change the political aspects 
 of the State ?—A. 1 do not think so. 
 
 Q. Your people have no fears on that point ?—A. Some of them 
 have; but I have not. 
 
 Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You said there is no demand for these people now ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. There are three seasons, you say—planting, harvesting, and corn- 
 gathering. When does the demand spring up?—A. Well, sir, they 
 commence plowing about the first of March, and sometimes not till 
 April. This winter has been very open, and if it dries out they will, be¬ 
 gin plowing in April and plant in May. 
 
 Q. From the time they commence planting up to the time the crop is 
 in they do not labor?—A. We have such improvements in machinery 
 now that one man attends to as much of the crop as ten men used to 
 do. We use double plows, reapers, and binders, and it requires less 
 labor than you would suppose to run one of our farms. 
 
 Q. When is the most demand for labor?—A. In the summer. 
 
 Q. You need help most from spring time through to winter?—A. Yes, 
 sir; we need most of them through the crop season. 
 
 Q. How long a time does it take to get those crops in ?—A. I don’t 
 know that I can say, as I am not a farmer. 
 
 Q. In our State we hire about the time you do and get through in 
 October. We hire up there for six months.—A. I don’t think they hire 
 that long in Indiana. They have large stock farms, and I know one 
 man who has a thousand head of three year-olds; it is a blue-grass re¬ 
 gion, and the best in the State, and the best stock county in the State.. 
 
 Q. I suppose the portion of the year that an ordinary laboring man 
 can get work in Indiana is about the same as in any other State South 
 or North ?—A. I don’t know., sir. We have had a great deal of idle¬ 
 ness in our State the last three or four years. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of it as a general rule. Now here is a colored man 
 or an Irishman, and he proposes to emigrate to some State in the West; 
 won’t he get as much work in Indiana as in Illinois or Missouri ?—A. 1 
 would hardly think so. I would think that in Illinois, or in Missouri, 
 where they have more wooded land to clear, he would stand better than 
 in Indiana. 
 
 Q. You know that in nearly all parts of the world, agricultural 
 people must for a while lie unemployed ?—A. Yes, sir; that is so. 
 
 Q. So that immigrants to Indiana would find no more luck of employ¬ 
 ment there than elsewhere ?—A. I am inclined to think he would. I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 189 
 
 know we have been overrun by idle men in our State for several years— 
 these people who are called tramps. In fact, we have had an unusual 
 amount of idle men tramping through the country. 
 
 Q. An emigrant, going from any quarter to a new country, would 
 expect, would he not, to undergo some hardships?—A. Yes, sir; I sup¬ 
 pose so. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think these people would rather prefer to go in a dull 
 season, and take advantage of any rise in the demand for labor in the 
 spring, than otherwise?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 By Senator WilSDOM : 
 
 Q. Do you know whether this gentleman who saw Heath paid his 
 way where he went ?—A. I think lie did, but 1 do not know. 
 
 Q. If he did, he was contributing to the exodus to some other State ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Voorhees: 
 
 Q. Now, you say these three pieces of paper Heath gave to you at 
 that night interview ; just read that one. 
 
 The Witness read as follows : 
 
 “Postmaster Langsdale, and Mr. Clay, colored, at Greencastle, 
 Putuum County, on the Terre Haute railroad. Private. Tell these 
 gentlemen more are coming.” 
 
 Q. Please state what is on the back of that paper. 
 
 The Witness. “ Holloway. P. M.” 
 
 Q Did you ever see Mr. Holloway’s handwriting ?—A. I do not know 
 that I know it. 
 
 Q. Look at this piece of brown paper, which you furnished on cross- 
 examination by Mr. Windom, and state what is on the face of it.—A. 
 (The Witness reading,) “ Union depot, mail office, Reynolds.” 
 
 Q. State Whether you have any means of identifying who Reynolds is, 
 by your information or personal knowledge.—A. I understand he is 
 the mail agent there. 
 
 Q. Where?—A. At Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. At the Union depot?—A. Well, sir; I never made any inquiry 
 about him. 
 
 Q. This third paper; what is it ?—A. That is “ J. M.” at the top, but 
 I take that to be “ J. M. Adams, 1338 V. street, N. W.” 
 
 Q. And these are the papers he handed you when he was talking to 
 you, and supposed you were in sympathy with the movement?—A. 
 That is true, sir. 
 
 Q. In your office, as sheriff, I will ask you whether it does not often 
 become necessary, to discover the purposes of parties, to appear to be for 
 the time in sympathy with them ?—A. We rarely ever succeed if we tell 
 the world what we are doing. I mean in pursuing a criminal, or any¬ 
 thing of that kind; we cannot get at the facts, whether it be arson or 
 theft, successfully without practicing some deception. 
 
 Q. Mr. W indom examined and cross examined you in reference to the 
 feeling thereon the subject of immigration. Now, take your own county, 
 and, if I understand you, there are objections to these people com¬ 
 ing; but it is on account of their being paupers coming there without a 
 demand for their labor, and consequently becoming objects of charity; 
 but there is no objection to immigration into the State of self-support¬ 
 ing laborers ?—A. I never heard of any. 
 
 Q. But there are objections to paupers coming there in large numbers? 
 —A. Yes, sir. Will you allow me to state right here that the greatest 
 
190 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 amount of dissatisfaction seems to be with the laboring classes of peo¬ 
 ple. They seem to be more dissatisfied with it than any others. 
 
 Q. You have heard some grumbling among them which amounted to 
 threats ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was some disturbance on account of it, was there not, over 
 in Hancock County?—A. I heard of it, but I do not know anything 
 about it. 
 
 Q. These threats, you say, came generally from the laboring classes 
 of people ?—A. There was some from leading Democrats ; but the largest 
 portion of them came from the laboring people. 
 
 Q. These irrespective of party ?—A. Yes, sir; 1 think there are some 
 few laboring men who are Republicans who are sympathizing with it. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You say you rarely succeed in finding a criminal without practicing 
 deception. Do you think it is criminal for a quiet citizen to come into 
 you county as tins man Heath did ?—A. Senator Voorhees asked me 
 about criminals. 
 
 Q. But you admit you took your criminal tactics in dealing with this 
 man?—A. Yes, sir; I did in this case. 
 
 Q. Why ?—A. Because it was rather an unusual case. 
 
 Q. You say that house was burnt because of the man’s hiring a negro f 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If they had let this man hire the negro, he would have been self- 
 supporting, and found work enough to do?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now don’t you want to correct this answer?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. J thought I would call your attention to it. * 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. WARNOCK. 
 
 Mr. Waknook sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Question. Did you see these circulars around the Banner office (re¬ 
 ferring to circulars signed by Rev. J. H. Olay)?—Answer. No, sir; 
 as soon as they were done, they were put into packages and sent down¬ 
 stairs. 
 
 Q. Who did you first mention it to?—A. I said nothing about it at 
 all. 1 heard that Mr. Lew man had one, and there was going to be an 
 investigation of it. 
 
 Q. It is not usual, is it, for printers to tell about what is done in their 
 job offices?—A. No, sir ; not unless they are asked. 
 
 Q. It is not usual for them to tell all they know ?— A. No, sir ; but I 
 supposed the committee wanted all the facts. 
 
 Q. State whether it is considered honorable among printers to tell 
 things occurring in their offices, unless they are called upon regularly 
 to do so?—A. Well, sir, I supposed that I was. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Lewman call upon you regularly ?—A. No, sir; but Mr. 
 Warren asked me about it, and showed me a copy that Mr. Lewman had, 
 and I remembered it. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned until Monday, February 2, 1880. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 191 
 
 . E IGHTH D A Y . 
 
 Washington, Monday, February 2, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to its order of adjournment and resumed 
 the hearing of testimony. Present,' the chairman, and all the members 
 of the committee. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM B. TINNEY. 
 
 William B. Tinney sworn and examined. 
 
 N By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. Indianapolis, Ind. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am agent of the Baltimore and 
 Ohio Railroad, at.Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acting in that capacity ?—A. At Indian¬ 
 apolis ? 
 
 Q. Anywhere ?—A. A little over five years I have been in the employ 
 of the company. 
 
 Q. How long since you have been at Indianapolis'?—A. Ever since I 
 was emplyed by the company. 
 
 Q. Are you a native of Indiana ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you from Maryland ?—A. I am a Kentuckian. 
 
 Q. Did you go from Kentucky to Indiana?—A. No, sir ; I went from 
 Ohio. 
 
 Q. You are the agent of the Baltimore and Ohio Road, but there are 
 agencies for different purposes; what is yours?—A. I am passenger 
 agent. 
 
 Q. Did they ever have more than one passenger agent there ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. What position does Louis C. Morrison hold ?—A. He is general 
 passenger agent of the Vandalia line. 
 
 Q. Do you know him ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Tinney, tell the committee whether you know of any money 
 being raised in Indianapolis, as you understand, for the purpose of car¬ 
 rying negroes from this place to Indiana.—A. I don’t know. 
 
 Q. State all you know in regard to the telegram addressed to your¬ 
 self asking that money be raised to send negroes from Washington to 
 Indiana.—A. Well, sir, I think some four or five weeks ago—I caunqt 
 give you the exact date because I have not it with me—I was absent 
 from home when an open telegram was sent over the wire to me at In¬ 
 dianapolis instructing me to collect $025 to pay the transportation of 
 negroes from Washington to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by an open message over the wire ?—A. I call 
 it an open message because it came over the private wire of the rail¬ 
 road, l presume over the I., C. and L. wire. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by an open message?—A. One not inclosed in 
 an envelope. 
 
 Q. Is that the habit of the company in telegraphing to its employes ? 
 —A. Not generally so, unless, as in this case, they are not accessible to 
 any envelope. 
 
 Q. But it came here over the private wires and came into you office ? 
 —A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And fell into the hands of another party?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who saw it and read it?—A. 1 presume so; I did not see it for 
 two days after. 
 
192 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. And that party handed it to you ?—A. When I came home I think 
 I found it under the inkstand on my desk. 
 
 Q. It had been placed there by somebody?—A. Yes, sir; I presume 
 so. Mr. Morris made the remark that there was a telegram for me in 
 addition to my mail. 
 
 Q. What Morris was that?—A. Levy 0. Morris. 
 
 Q. Have you that telegram with you?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do with it?—A. I destroyed it after attending to 
 
 inv business. 
 
 « 
 
 Q. Is it in existence?—A. I presume the original could be got from 
 the office here. 
 
 Q. State the contents of it.—A. The substance of the message was 
 for me to go to certain parties there and collect $625, upon which being 
 done, transportation would be furnished to the negroes for the money 
 so deposited with me; tkeu they would be given tickets. 
 
 Q. Be good enough, Mr. Tiuney, to state whose name was signed to 
 this dispatch.—A. I think our agent here in Washington, whose last 
 name is Koontz. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Koontz I —A. I have met him twice since I have 
 been here. I asked him if he had the original telegram, and I said to 
 him that it might be called for. He said to me at another time that he 
 had found the original. 
 
 Q. In conversation with him did you refresh your recollection that 
 the dispatch was from him ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is his position in the company ?—A. He is general agent 
 at this place. 
 
 Q. Tell us the names of those parties he requested you to see and 
 from whom to collect this money. —A. There were three colored men. 
 
 Q. Name them.—A. Message read, in substance, collect from Profes¬ 
 sors Bagby, Broyles, and Elbert this money. 
 
 Q. Are these men of large means ?—A. I don’t know, sir ; I never saw 
 but one of them. 
 
 Q. Did you collect the money from them ?—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you go to see them ?—A. I went where I expected to find 
 them 
 
 Q. Who did you see ?—I saw the leaders of the negro chureli there. 
 
 Q. Did you see either of these three men ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What leaders did you see?—A. The minister’s name, I think, was 
 Trebine. 
 
 Q. Did you see either one of them afterwards ?—A. I saw Bagby. 
 
 Q. Did you get the money from him ?—A. Not a cent. 
 
 Q. What did you tell him?—A. I told him I had called to collect 
 $625, according to this telegram, and that it was two days old and L 
 did not know what had been done in the mean time. He remarked that 
 they did not have $625 there that night, and I said I do not want 
 your money myself; 1 don’t propose to go about with $600 out of 
 that church and keep it over night at my house. I said to them that 
 you had better take the money to some bank and get them to telegraph 
 to Koontz to furnish the tickets aud that the money is there subject to 
 a draft. 
 
 Q. Was that the course taken ?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, you went no further with it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know whether the money was raised ?—A. I don’t know, 
 sir ; I presume more than likely the money was sent or tickets would not 
 have been furnished. 
 
 • Q. They were furnished, were they not ?—A. I don’t know ; I know 
 the negroes came to Indianapolis and we don’t haul people for nothing. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 193 
 
 Q. You haul some of them for half price, anyhow ?—A. Yes, sir; and 
 white people too. 
 
 Q. Do you charge these people full price ?—A. You are right, we do. 
 
 Q. Y r ou saw Bagby when ?—A. It was between 9 and 10 o’clock. 
 
 Q. And he said the money was not raised ?—A. I won’t be positive 
 he said that when I went into the church ; I asked him where I would 
 find these parties and they pointed me to the executive committee- 
 room, as they called it, and I went in and found some 20 or 25 there, t 
 never had seen Mr. Bagby before that time, and 1 showed the message 
 and lie read it the second time; they took counsel about it; they came 
 to me, somebody did, and said they had not that amount to-night but 
 they would raise that amount to-morrow so as to let the negroes 
 come. 
 
 Q. You naturally supposed that they had raised it ?—A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the negroes came over the road ?—A. I met Mr. Bagby several 
 times afterwards, but I did not ask him about it. I told them who were 
 at the church that I did not want the money myself; their best course 
 was to deposit it in a bank. 
 
 Q. Did any one want you to wait until they raised the money?—A. 
 Yes, sir; and 1 know I was positive about not taking it. 
 
 Q. You thought that some of them might be moved by pious zeal to 
 interview you ?—A. I don’t know, but 1 thought there might be some¬ 
 body to do that. 
 
 Q. This you say was five or six weeks ago?—A. Yes, sir; as long as 
 that. 
 
 Q. How soon after that was there heard the arrival of these people ? 
 —A. Two or three days. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how many came?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you keep account of them at that end of the line ?—A. No, 
 sir; nobody would know that fact probably, except the officers of the 
 Indianapolis, Cincinnati and Lafayette Road ; the general ticket agent 
 if he knows his business, ought to know how many people go over his 
 road, for he gets one coupon for each fare. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how many carloads came?—A. No, sir; Ido 
 not. 
 
 Q. Did you see some of them when they came there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not taken a very lively interest in it yourself?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did not carry anything into your pocket?—A. It does not add 
 anything to my salary at all. 
 
 Q. You have no politics to interest you in the matter ?—A, No, sir; 
 we will carry them dead or alive either way. 
 
 Q. Do you know the political prominence of Mr. Bagby?—A. Iam 
 rather inclined to think that this gentlemen spoken of in the dispatch 
 must have been rather influential. I think Mr. Bagby is at the head 
 of one or two colored institutions there. 
 
 Q. Is lie a prominent Republican ?—A. I don’t know his politics, but 
 he is quite influential among his people. 
 
 Q. Do you know Broyle’s politics ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Elbert’s?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not mixed in politics out there much?—A. I vote very 
 seldom. 
 
 Q. Do you know where this money was deposited, what bank'?—A. 
 No, sir; i don’t know that it was raised. 
 
 Q. You told them the best way was to put it in a bank and telegraph 
 
 13 EX 
 
194 
 
 NEGRO EXOUUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to Koontz to furnish tickets ?—A. Yes, sir ; to let tickets issue and then 
 the money could be drawn from the bank; they did not know me and I 
 would have had to receipt to them, and probably had to go around and 
 get somebody to identify myself, which I did not propose to do that 
 night. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You do not know whether it was raised or not?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether it was raised here or there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The only reason you suppose it was raised was that the negroes 
 came there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It might have been raised here?—A. No, sir ; 1 don’t say that; nat¬ 
 urally on that telegram I thought it was to be raised there, or he would 
 not have telegraphed as lie did. I take -it that way as it was usual in 
 some cases to get us folks, and telegraph, as in that way we would Save 
 the money, and we had the privilege of the wires. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You necessarily would notice the arrival of colored people there? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have seen a good many of these people arrive ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Reynolds that is the mail 
 agent at the Indiana depot?—A. I have seen him, but I am not ac¬ 
 quainted with him. 
 
 Q. You would not be likely to know of his selling tickets in this busi¬ 
 ness?—A. I don’t think lie was ever in the list to sell tickets from our 
 road ; we don’t recognize anybody whose name is not ou our pay-roll. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF VIRLING K. MORRIS. 
 
 Virling K. Morris sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. You say you reside at Indianapolis?—Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Williams, a colored mau, who 
 has been connected with this emigration movement?—A. Yes, sir; 1 
 have met him a time or two. 
 
 Q. Where did you meet him ?—A. I believe the first time was in my 
 office. 
 
 Q. W^here is your office?—A. Number 58 East Market street. 
 
 Q. What business are you engaged in ?—A. The real estate business; 
 and then we have been acting as agents for Western railroads having 
 a land agency. I think there was the first place I saw him. 
 
 Q. Why did he call on you ?—A. I think he called to see if he could 
 get transportation to Topeka, Ivans. 
 
 Q. Are you agent of roads leading into that State ?—A. I have been 
 of the Atchison, Topeka and Sante Fe Railroad, but not for several 
 years past. 
 
 Q. Are you related to Levy C. Morris?—A. Yes, sir; he is a brother 
 of mine. 
 
 Q. He is an agent of the Vandalia line, is he not ?—A. I will explain 
 that to you. We have au office up on Market street, and one at 164 
 South Illinois street. He has charge of that while I am up at the 
 Market street office. That down there is our Western business ; while 
 Mr. Mills is associated with me at my office, which is up town. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 195 
 
 Q. Do you have the privileges of his office down town ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At which one of your offices did Williams call on you ?—A. The 
 uptown office. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether before that he had seen your brother?—A. 
 I dou’t. 
 
 Q. You say he wanted transportation to Topeka, Kans. ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how long he had been in the State when he called 
 on you ?—A. No, sir; I did not know he was there until he came into 
 the office. 
 
 Q. At what time was that?—A. In the fore part of October. 
 
 Q. Did he get transportation to Kansas?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he get it from you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he went to Kansas ?—A. No, sir; not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. What did he say about remaining in Indiana?—A. I don’t remem¬ 
 ber his saying anything particular. He wanted to know what the fare 
 would be to Kansas. He was in there but a little while. 
 
 Q. Could he not have found that easier down town than up at your 
 office?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How came he to come to you ?—A. I don’t know, sir. I think one 
 of these colored men came with him. You see we have been advertising 
 considerably over that country as land agents, particularly of the Iron 
 Mountain road; and persons visit our office in town to see what rates 
 they can get to various points. 
 
 Q. You don’t remember the man who came with him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it Perry ?—A. I think Perry came to the office first, and in 
 a few minutes Williams came. I believe it was Perry that the other 
 gentleman was with. 
 
 Q. Had Perry been to your office frequently ?—A. Several times. 
 
 Q. Is that him [pointing Perry out in the committee room] ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say he came first with another gentleman, and then Williams 
 came in?—A. Aes, sir; in five or ten minutes 
 
 Q. Did they state anything about settling in Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They said nothing to you about settling in Indiana?—A. I think 
 we had some little talk about it, but I don’t know whether it was at 
 that time or afterwards. 
 
 Q. Was he there afterwards?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk with him?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he finally conclude to stay there?—A. Yes, sir; I think he 
 did. 
 
 Q. What did he say a3 to the others?—A. He said that others were 
 coming. 
 
 Q. Did he give you an idea of how many?—A. No, sir; he didn’t 
 mention the numbers; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say about what time they would come?—A. No, sir. I 
 think the next time there were some of them there at the Union depot, 
 and I went down to see them. The first time I don’t recollect. I don’t 
 remember how soon he told me any of them were coming. 
 
 Q. I mean, did he say they were coining this winter, or next summer, 
 or when? Did he indicate when they would come?—A. No, sir; he 
 didn’t indicate any particular time. 
 
 Q. What reason did he give for their coming?—A. Well, he thought 
 they didn’t have the privileges in North Carolina that they would have 
 in Indiana and in Kansas. 
 
196 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. ITow long: had he been in Indiana at that time ?—A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is now ?—A. I don’t. 
 
 Q. Wh at do you know of his making a trip to Washington after¬ 
 wards?—A. I don’t know anything about it, except that he came, and 
 there were some colored people with him at the Union depot. I think 
 there were two or three colored men with him when he came to the of¬ 
 fice. 
 
 Q. Do you mean when he was returning to Washington ?—A. No, 
 sir. He came here and then came back to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. What did you do to help him purchase tickets ?—A. I assisted Mr. 
 Perry. 
 
 Q. State what that assistance was ?—A. He came in and wanted me 
 to assist him about getting tickets, and he gave me the money, and I 
 went down and gave it to my brother. I suppose he ticketed them 
 through. I returned to the office, as I was busy that day. 
 
 Q. You say Perry gave you the money ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Could he not have gone and bought them himself ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 I suppose so. 
 
 Q. Then why did you do it?—A. Because he asked. People very fre¬ 
 quently do it who are going west. 
 
 Q. Was he going west ?—A. He was going east. 
 
 Q. Why didn’t you tell him to go and buy the tickets for himself? 
 —A. Because we get a commission out of tickets we sell over some of 
 the roads, and that was the case in this instance. 
 
 Q. How much commission did you get on these tickets ?—A. I think 
 two dollars in each case. 
 
 Q. Did you divide that with Perry ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You took two dollars commission on each ticket?—A. \ r es, sir; 
 but we don’t get it all; we report the tickets and the report is sent back 
 by the officers of the road. 
 
 Q. Am I to understand that if I were in Indianapolis to day I could 
 give you the money to buy my ticket and you could buy and keep two 
 dollars of that money ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, I think I will help some of my friends out there the next 
 time I travel. Bat. Mr. Morris, do I pay no more than the regular rate 
 in such case?—A. No, sir; and I wish, Senator, you would help us out. 
 
 Q. Suppose that I am a traveler and I met you at the depot in Indianap¬ 
 olis and gave you the money for two tickets, you would buy the tickets 
 for me at the same price that I could buy them, but you would get two 
 dollars by that transaction, ami I would pay nothing more?—A. Yes,, 
 sir ; I will have to explain that to you. The laws of the city there are 
 very stringent, and have driven all the scalpers out, and we have to be 
 very particular. When parties want tickets we generally take them to 
 the Union depot ticket office and we help them in purchasing their tickets 
 as much as we can, and in that we manage to sell tickets east and 
 west. 
 
 Q. Did Perry have any benevolent desire to help you by applying to 
 you to purchase his tickets ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Could not he have gone and bought his tickets for himself quite 
 as well ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is not an idiot, Mr. Morris?—A. No, sir; I should not take 
 him to be one. 
 
 Q. Is that the only ticket operation you had with these people?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I bought two tickets only for him and Williams. 
 
 Q. How much money did he give you ?—A. Twenty tive dollars, I 
 think. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 197 
 
 Q. Was that to pay their fare from Indianapolis here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did they get tickets for twelve dollars and a half?—A. It 
 was not first class fare, it was emigrant rates. 
 
 Q. Do they have an emigrant rate coming east?—A. I believe they 
 have. 
 
 Q. Who bought those tickets ?—A. My brother took the money aud 
 he went and bought them. 
 
 Q. Then you got four dollars out of them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the road got twenty one dollars actually?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was a pretty good commission, wasn’t it, for waiting on a 
 couple of North Carolina emigrants?—A. Yes, sir; but it was the pay 
 that we were after. 
 
 Q. You had no other feeling in this matter except to make the money? 
 You have no particular sympathy or charity for these folks ?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; I had charity for them just as I have for other people who are in a 
 suffering condition. 
 
 Q. I don’t want to ask you an unpleasant question, Mr. Morris, but 
 isn’t it rather queer that you took four dollars from these people out of 
 twenty-five when they were in a, suffering condition ?—A. I don’t con¬ 
 sider these two people in a suffering condition ; 1 don’t wish to be un¬ 
 derstood as saying that these two people were suffering. 
 
 Q. I)o you know Mr. Jorden, the register in bankruptcy?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. lie is quite a leading Republican politician there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he in the office when this transaction took place?—A. I don’t 
 know that he was. 
 
 Q. What do you know about his giving this money to Perry and 
 Williams?—A. I don’t know anything, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn’t he say in your presence that he would guarantee more 
 money at the same rates ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was present when Perry came and gave you that twenty-five 
 dollars to buy the two tickets for himself and Williams back to Wash¬ 
 ington ?—A. Perry and myself, and I remember there was some two or 
 three other customers in the office, but 1 don’t recollect their names. 
 
 Q. Try and recollect; haven’t you told your brother, Levy Morris, 
 that Jorden gave this money to Perry and Williams and said he would 
 guarantee more in the same way?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Mills present at this transaction between you and Will¬ 
 iams and Perry ?—A. I am not sure; he might have been. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Colonel Jorden on this 
 subject?—A. I think J did some days after. 
 
 Q. What was that?—A. 1 was asking just as a matter of conversation 
 about this exodus business. I casually made the remark myself. 
 
 Q. What was the remark about it ?—A. This exodus business, and 
 the people coming in there. 
 
 Q. What remark did you make to him ? Did you tell him that you 
 were making a little out of it yourselves?—A. We were reading some¬ 
 thing in the paper about it, and it had then been a couple of weeks after 
 the first lot came in there. 
 
 Q. What did Jorden say?—A. Well, sir, we w'ere talking about what 
 Indiana could do for them in the way of lands, aud I said there was 
 lands enough for them down among the hills in the southwest of Indian¬ 
 apolis. 
 
 Q. Where are there any lands that are available to these people in 
 Indiana?—A. In Morgan County, in the southwest part of the State; 
 there are some hilly lauds dow n there. 
 
198 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Was that all that you talked about ?—A. That was the principal 
 matter of talk. That, and our business transaction. 
 
 Q. Did you have some knobs down there to sell them?—A. Yes, sir, I 
 had some that I wanted to trade them so as to make a commission 
 thereto. 
 
 Q. What do you think you could sell them for per acre?—A. I thought 
 5 or 6 or 8 dollars. 
 
 Q. Did these immigrants seem to be in a condition to purchase those 
 lands when they arrived there?—A. I had some information—I don’t 
 know whether I got it from the newspapers or otherwise—that some of 
 them bad some means laid up. 
 
 Q. Where have you got lands at 5 to 8 dollars per acre ?—A. I have 
 several thousand acres in Monroe County. 
 
 Q. You have none of those knobs and hills and ridges where anybody 
 can live?—A. Yes, sir; I think there is some pretty good lands down 
 there. 
 
 Q. Monroe is an old county, is it not?—A. Yes, sir ; and pretty well 
 settled. 
 
 Q. And they have cut off most of the timber, have they not?—A. A 
 good deal of it, sir. 
 
 Q. And you thought if you could get some of those knobs off on these 
 North Carolina emigrants, it would be a good thing?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 I don’t know that I took any particular pains to do it. It was a busi¬ 
 ness matter as we talked of it. 
 
 Q. You thought it would relieve their condition and better them, as 
 they term it, to put them down there on those limestone ridges, where 
 nobody else will venture to live ?—A. 1 don’t know, sir, that there is 
 much limestone down there. 
 
 Q. Does not that county lie on a limestone bed almost?—^A. I don’t 
 know, sir. I think I have the advantage of you in a knowledge of In¬ 
 diana, although you are a real-estate agent. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir, you may have. Do you now remember whether Mills 
 was present at the time of this conversation, or not?—A. I don’t know. 
 
 Q. You don’t know of Jorden raising any money other than this?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou never raised any yourself ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor contributed any ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you know whether many of those people have found employ¬ 
 ment who stop at Indianapolis?—A. I think some of them have. 
 
 Q. Do you know many who have found employment?—A. I think 
 most of those who came in tirst have. 
 
 Q. Where ?—A. They are scattered about over different parts of the 
 State, i think some of them went over to Terre Haute or north of that, 
 to the county north of Vigo County. 
 
 Q. Did you hear much complaint of their not getting employment ?— 
 A. 1 have not heard a great deal, for I have not been among them 
 much. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You are pretty well acquainted about Indiana, as to its soil and 
 all that?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been in the real estate business how long ?—A. Since 
 1872. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the State are you pretty well acquainted 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 199 
 
 with ?—A. Take it from the vicinity of Terre Haute, through Richmond, 
 and all of the north. 
 
 Q. Is it one-third or one half of the State ?—A. Yes, sir; from one- 
 third to one-half. 
 
 Q. Do you consider ludiana full to the extent of her capacity to sup¬ 
 port people ?—A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. It has about two million of population now ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think 
 in that vicinity. 
 
 Q. You think she has capacity to support five million, do you not ?— 
 A. I think the population could be easily double what it is now. 
 
 Q. From your observations and knowledge of the resources and char¬ 
 acter of the State, and the employment for labor, present and prospect¬ 
 ive, what do you say would be the effect of an emigration to that State 
 of ten to twenty thousand colored people with their families, say live or 
 six thousand laborers—would it be a disadvantage to a State, or would 
 they just drift and be absorbed in the population ?—A. I think they 
 would find employment. I used to be a farmer myself, and found it diffi¬ 
 cult sometimes to get good farm laborers. 
 
 Q. When were you a farmer ; just before going into this business ?— 
 A. \ r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the demand for farm laborers is as great 
 now as it was then ?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think Indiana is as good a State to go to as any other 
 State where .you have got no government land and a laborer has to de¬ 
 pend upon his muscle for his living?—A. AYs, sir; Ido. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that such men do better in a State which has been 
 settled some time and where employers are to be found among men with 
 capital who want labor performed than a new State under the process 
 of settlement—is it not a fact that such a State is better in a way to give 
 labor to the penniless poor man ?—A. AYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything, Mr. Morris, of this being in any sense 
 whatever a political movement?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any Republican or Democrat who has political 
 ends in engaging in and promoting this exodus?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. You have heard some expressions of that sort?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the Republicans admit or disclaim that charge?—A. It is 
 pretty well disclaimed by Republicans. 
 
 Q. Do you think that any Democrat is really afraid that the Republi¬ 
 cans are trying to colonize the States in order to carry the election ?—- 
 A. It would seem that there are some who do. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any yourself ?—A. No, sir. I have heard rumors 
 to that effect and seen such statements in the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that is mere political twaddle, or do you think 
 these people really believe it?—A. That is my impression. 
 
 Q. What is ?—A. That it is mere talk for the sake of political capital; 
 that is what I think. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any fact going to show that Republicans are en¬ 
 gaging in this emigration in order to strengthen themselves politically? 
 —A. I don’t know of a single fact. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You stated to Senator Blair that you thought ten to twenty thou¬ 
 sand people, with five to six thousand voters among them, emigrating 
 into Indiana would not incommode the people of that State.— A. No, 
 sir ; not if they were scattered about much. 
 
 Q. You are a Republi 
 
 nn ') 
 V'tU • * 
 
 Y( 
 
 
 sir 
 
200 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. A square one ?—A. I try to be a square one. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Morris, tbe Republicans generally in Indiana are of the 
 opinion, are they not, that fifteen or twenty thousand negroes brought 
 in the State would not hurt us?—A. I don’t know, sir; lain not a 
 politician, and I attend to my own business. 
 
 Q. You are expressing your views here, and you have not heard any 
 people belonging to that party express themselves differently from that, 
 have you ?—A. No, sir ; I have not heard any different expressions. 
 
 Q. Y r ou have not seen any statements in the Republican newspapers 
 condemning it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Some of them rather encourage it?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. They rather encourage the negroes to come than condemn their 
 coming?—A. 1 believe so, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. Y r ou don’t find the Republican party condemning the emigration 
 of the Irish there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They rather encourage it?—A. Yes, sir; good Irish farm labor is 
 desired. I have employed them myself. 
 
 Q. Did you do that for political purposes?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But the Irish are pretty nearly all Democrats ?—A. Yes, sir ; I 
 think so. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Will you say now, Mr. Morris, that you know of no Republican 
 newspaper or speaker you have heard encouraging the Irish to come 
 to Indiana?—A. I am not speaking, Senator, of the politicians ; I am 
 speaking of farmers and what my experience was at the time I was a 
 farmer. 
 
 Q. Is there any expressions, or was there, among the farmers in favor 
 of it?—A. 1 was speaking, Senator, in reference to the character of the 
 labor; as far as my observation was before I left the farming, it was that 
 the farmers wanted good Irish laborers, as they were good hands; they 
 would employ good colored men, but it was difficult to get them; but if 
 they could get Irishmen they always liked it. 
 
 Q. Where were you farming at?—A. At Six Points, twelve miles 
 west of this place. 
 
 Q. When was that ?—A. Up to 1872. 
 
 Q. You cannot remember any newspaper, you say, that rather encour¬ 
 aged Irishmen to come to Indiana?—A. No, sir; 1 cannot. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that your party is always condemning the Democrats 
 for taking up the Irish aud for adopting the present constitution that 
 allowed a foreigner to vote after a residence of six months in the State? 
 —A. Yes, sir; I believe they have. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Was that because he was a foreigner, or because they did not be¬ 
 lieve that was long enough residence ?—A. 1 have heard objections on 
 all those accounts, some on one account and some on another. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is your age?—A. 1 am forty-one; will be forty-two this • 
 summer. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 201 
 
 TESTIMONY OF THOMAS P. MILLS. 
 
 Thomas P. Mills sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. What do you do there ?—A. Mr. Morris and 1 are partners in the 
 real estate and railroading business, and so forth, and dealing in West¬ 
 ern lands. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the immigration of negroes into Indian¬ 
 apolis and Indiana ?—A. I don’t know as I know much about it. 1 
 know there have been a good many people go there. 
 
 Q. How many ?—A. I could not tell you. After they once pass there 
 I lose sight of them. 
 
 Q. Have you taken some interest in this matter ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been in favor of emigration?—A. Yes, sir ; I was very 
 much in favor of it. I told the boys when they first came there that we 
 wanted 20,000 “ bucks,” buck niggers, in Indiana this year. 
 
 Q. You mean to say that .you wanted 20,000 men ?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. You had no use for women ?—A. No, sir; we had no special use 
 for them. 
 
 Q. Y r ou had no idea of labor connected with this matter?—A, No, sir; 
 I had no idea of labor. I was looking for votes. 
 
 Q. You wanted these 20,000 “bucks” to vote ?— A. I wanted them to 
 vote, of course. 
 
 Q. Are you a Republican ?—A. Yes, sir; I am. 
 
 Q. And you thought if you could get 20,000 “bucks” you would slay 
 us ?—A. I thought we would get away with you everlastingly. 
 
 Q. Have you mixed with them much since they came here ?—A. The 
 colored folks ? 
 
 Q. Yes.—A. No, sir; except at the depot. We have one office near 
 the depot, and when a gang was coming in I would go down there and 
 see them. 
 
 Q. Have they come in as fast as you desired ?—A. They have not 
 come in as I wanted them to. 
 
 Q. There have been rather more women and children than you 
 wanted?—A. Y"es, sir; they have rather overdone the thing in the 
 women and children. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed, Mr. Mills, whether any considerable party of 
 them have to be taken care of by charity ?—A. Well, I could not tell 
 you, Mr. Senator. I have not been at their headquarters much. 
 
 Q. Have you been called upon to contribute to their support ?—A. 
 Not largely. 
 
 Q. Were you raised on a farm as well as your partner ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of course you think these 20,000 “ bucks” could be scattered around 
 and get employment throughout the State?—A. Yes, sir ; I thought we 
 could get employment for them if we scattered them pretty thin. 
 
 Q. You mean in close counties?—A. Yes, sir; in close counties and 
 where there are cheap lands. 
 
 Q. Then you mean to scatter them in close counties where there are 
 cheap lands?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, when Mr. Blair asks you, as he will, whether you know of 
 anything political in this movement, what answer will you make?—A. 
 How do you want to put that? 
 
 Q. I want to ask you whether the Republican party, or leading Re¬ 
 publicans, have anything to do with this movement? I will put it in a 
 
202 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 different way—whether these views of yours which you have given to 
 the committee very frankly, are shared in by the intelligent Republi¬ 
 cans of your State!—A. I think they are, as individuals. 
 
 Q. You are pretty well read, Mr. Mills, in the newspapers of the 
 State!—A. Yes, sir; I read them pretty generally. 
 
 Q. Now, will you tell this committee whether you have ever seen an 
 article in a Republican newspaper opposing or condemning this move¬ 
 ment of the niggers !—A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Do you read the Democratic papers too!—A. Yes, sir; and they 
 everlastingly go for it. 
 
 Q. Then I am to understand that the Republican papers approve of 
 it!—A. I should think they did from their tone. 
 
 Q. They have had a word or two to say about me for raising this 
 committee to investigate the exodus!—A. Yes, sir; I have seen your 
 name frequently in print. 
 
 Q. It does not agree with the Republican press to have the causes of 
 this immigration shown up!—A. 1 think, from the tone of the papers, 
 they think it is a joke, and that there is nothiugin it. 
 
 Q. You say, so far as you know, you think your views are substan¬ 
 tially shared in by the Republicans of ^our State!—A. I think they are, 
 as individuals. 
 
 Q. Have you seen an article in a Republican newspaper stating as 
 frankly the view of this exodus movement as you yourself stated it to 
 this committee!—A. I don’t know as I have. 1 was simply giving my 
 own views about the matter. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Martindale about this matter!—A 
 Yes, sir; several times. 
 
 Q. His paper is not disapproving of the movement!—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Rather encouraging it, is he not!—A. Yes, sir; I should say he 
 was. 
 
 Q. He has always announced that there was plenty of room in Indiana 
 for negroes !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That they could get employment!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that there was good times there!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that they ought to get out of Egypt !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Colonel Jordan, register of bankruptcy !—A. Very 
 well, sir; I have known him for quite a while. 
 
 Q. You may state whether you heard any conversation that he had 
 in your office, or anywhere else, in regard to this matter of the exodus, 
 as it is called.—A. I do not think I talked with him in my office. I saw 
 him in there one day, but I do not think I talked with him there; but I 
 was at his office. 
 
 Q. Well, what was the conversation yon heard !—A. Well, I took a 
 party of these people there, and one of them—I would not be certain 
 which—but I introduced them to Mr. Jordan in his own office. I called 
 to him that they could tell their own story, and that I was in a hurry, 
 and I took my departure. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with Colouel Jordan afterward !—A. Yes, sir ; 
 I did. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with him about raising money and buying tick¬ 
 ets for these men!—A. No, sir; I had no talk with Colonel Jordan in 
 reference to this. 
 
 Q. What did he ever tell you in regard to his giving them money and 
 buying tickets, and that he could raise more money for the same pur¬ 
 pose !—A. I don’t know as I could tell precisely. The day that they 
 wanted these tickets they went up to Colonel Jordan’s office, because I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 203 
 
 stepped out of my place and showed them where it was. They were in 
 want of means to come back to Washington, and I showed them where 
 his office was, and they went up there, and when they came back they 
 had the money themselves, but where they got it I don't know. 
 
 Q. What did they say as to their money when they first talked to 
 you ?—A. They were wanting help. 
 
 Q. And you pointed out the office of Colonel Jordan to them ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; they went to see Colonel Jordan and Colonel Dudley. They 
 wanted to see Colonel Dudley, but I didn’t know him very well, and I 
 didn’t introduce them to him. 
 
 Q. Dudley is United States marshal ?—A. Yes, sir ; but I didn’t in¬ 
 troduce them to him. 
 
 Q. After they went to see Colonel Jordan they came back directly and 
 had the money?—A. Yes, sir; they came in time to make the train. 
 
 Q Is there any other financial transaction in reference to this matter 
 with which you are acquainted ?—A. Yes, sir. There was money raised 
 to send them to Greeneastie. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much ?—A. I don’t know exactly how many 
 went, but I know it was a grand day in the business. 
 
 Q. It was a pretty good day iu the business?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know who raised that money to take them to Greeneastie ? 
 —A. Well, I went down to see in reference to it, because, as Mr. Morris 
 has told you, we wanted to get the number of the tickets, and I heard 
 th( re was quite a number of them down there, and I went to see how 
 many of them there were and where they were going. I went down 
 there and saw about it, and I spoke to Mr. Reynolds about it. 
 
 Q. What occurred betweeu you and Reynolds ?—A. He reached me 
 the tickets and I took the numbers; and 1 asked if they were fixed, and 
 he said : ‘T have sent a man up town to get the money and fix them.” 
 
 Q. Do you remember how mauy tickets there were ?—A. There were 
 from 50 to 75. 
 
 Q. Are you personally acquainted with Mr. Reynolds ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What position does he hold ?—A. He is mail agent. 
 
 Q. Where?—A. At the Union depot at Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. If you understand it, what is his duty? To see that the mail is 
 transferred from the depot to the office, and from the office to the depot? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is a very important office, then ?—A. Yes, sir ; I believe so. 
 
 Q. Is it an office of appointment by the government or by the post¬ 
 master?—A. Yes, sir; I think it is by appointment from the govern¬ 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Reynolds’ politics?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is he a Republican ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how he came possessed of those 50 or 00 tickets ?— 
 A. Well, sir, he bought them. I saw him buy them, but I don’t know 
 where the money came from. He said to me that he sent up town for 
 the money. 
 
 Q. And you saw him buy the tickets?—A. Yes, sir. I saw him in¬ 
 side the office, and became out and gave me the tickets and I took the 
 numbers of them. 
 
 Q. Do you remember what the fare is from Indianapolis to Green- 
 castle ?—A. It is something over a dollar. 
 
 Q. A dollar and fifty-five cents ?—A. Yes, sir. A dollar and fifty-five 
 cents exactly. 
 
 Q. And he had money enough to purchase fifty or sixty tickets at 
 that rate ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
204 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. And you don’t know where lie sent for the money ?—A. No, sir; 
 
 I saw they were getting uneasy and it would not do to keep them there 
 until the 11 o’clock train that night. 1 wanted to ship them off, for 
 people were talking about there, and it would not do to keep them there. 
 
 Q. When, therefore, you heard them talking you wanted to send them 
 off ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. John G. New?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And a very nice gentleman, too?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Chairman of the Republican State central committee?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any talk with him on the subject?—A. No, sir; 
 I have never spoken with him about it. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. You are a strong Republican?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Always have been ?—A. Always have been. 
 
 Q. Always going to be, I hope?—A. l r es, sir; 1 hope so. 
 
 Q. And you say if these men come to Indiana and vote the Republi¬ 
 can ticket, you are in favor of their coming?—A. Y r es, sir; 1 do. 
 
 Q. And you think every Republican living in the State wants every 
 emigrant to vote the Republican ticket?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether any Democrat iu the State wants emigrants 
 coining there to vote any other than the Democratic ticket ?—A. Well, 
 judging for myself, I should say that they wanted them to vote the 
 Democratic ticket. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the Republican party, as a party, is engaged 
 in organizingor using any systematic effort to stir up discontent among 
 the negroes of the South to induce them to come to Indiana for politi¬ 
 cal reasons?—A. I do not know of any such organization. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any such effort?—A. As a party, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you kuow of any prominent Republican from Indiana who has 
 been to the South, or any portion of the South, as a political missionary, 
 to arouse a desire among the negroes to come to the North, or to 
 Indiana, to vote the Republican ticket?—A. I don’t know of any per¬ 
 sons who have been dowu there except our own De La Matyr, who 
 represents our own district at home. 
 
 Q. Y r ou do not look upon him as a representative Republican ?—A. 
 Be did not get the Republican vote. 
 
 By Seuator Voorhees: 
 
 Q. He got some of it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You spoke of certaiu tickets being purchased for the transporta¬ 
 tion of these negroes from Indianapolis to Greencastle?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from Indianapolis to Greencastle?—A. Forty 
 miles. 
 
 Q. You stated, I believe, that you had some connection with that 
 business. Now, please state to the committee just what it was. What 
 did you work for, and what interest as a railroad man have you in the 
 transportation of these negroes?—A. I work for the Vandalia road. 
 
 Q. As against what roads?—A. The I., O. and L. or any other road 
 that runs in competition. It was to our interest to get as many to go 
 over that road to Greencastle at full rates as possible. 
 
 Q. Then it was business interests that you had?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What commission did you get per capita on those tickets ?—A. 
 We did not get any. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 205 
 
 Q. You stated that you would like to have a large immigration into 
 the State of Indiana. Now. will you tell the committee whether your 
 interest was mainly a business interest "?—A. That was not my only ob¬ 
 ject and desire; my principal object was different from that. 
 
 Q. Then it was to get them to vote the Republican ticket?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What have you done in order to advance that object?—A. Noth¬ 
 ing, except to blow off a little wind. 
 
 Q. You have put no money into it ?—A. Not to amount to any¬ 
 thing. 
 
 Q. What have you given ?—A. Well, $3 or $4 or $5. 
 
 Q. That is to those who happened along?—A. Yes, sir ; they would 
 pass me and ask for a quarter or half dollar and I would give it. 
 
 Q. That is mere pocket charity ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever sent any money South, or assisted in sending any 
 money Soutn or any agents; or have you printed or circulated any doc¬ 
 uments in the South to induce negroes to go to Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I)o you not suppose that you feel as active an interest as any Re¬ 
 publican in the State in the emigration of these negroes?—A. I do not 
 see how a man could feel any more than I do. 
 
 Q. You are as warm and ardent a Republican as any man in the State ? 
 —A. I believe I am. 
 
 Q. Now, then, Mr. Mills, since these emigrants came there, what has 
 been their condition up to this date?—A. Financially? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. How have they been disposed of; how taken care of?— 
 A. There are some of them that I have heard about—I suppose you 
 have heard about them, too—who went to Shelbyville. A great many 
 of them went to Greeucastle, and some to Rockville, and some of them 
 to Senator Yoorhees’ city. Some of them, I believe, went to Greenfield, 
 and some of them into Hamilton Couuty, about Marion. 
 
 Q. Then they have been scattered pretty well through the State ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why have they gone to these particular localities?—A. That 
 would be a matter of supposition. 
 
 Q. But you can say why, according to your understanding?—A. I 
 suppose because they are invited. 
 
 Q. By whom ?—A. By persons living there. 
 
 Q. Ho they promise to give them employment?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have not all of them substantially found employment?—A. I 
 know nothing of that except what I have heard. 
 
 Q. Well, what is it?—A. I know those who have remained in the 
 cities have not found employment. 
 
 Q. But you say most of them have gone to those other places ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then those have pretty generally found employment ?—A. I have 
 read contradictory statements as to Putnam County. 
 
 Q. But generally, you say, they were invited?—A. Yes, sir; and 
 most of them have been employed. 
 
 Q. Of course individuals in certain cases will suffer, but what do you 
 think of the most of them ?—A. Yes, sir ; individuals will suffer, but I 
 think the most of them who are there now will fare pretty well. 
 
 Q. In Indianapolis, I understand you, there are some remaining?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many?—A. I could not tell you. There were a lot of them 
 quartered in a church, but I could not tell you how many there were. 
 
206 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Were they all at one place ?—A. They were at two different 
 places, and I think they rented quarters for them afterward. 
 
 Q. They are not proposing to go back, as 1 understand you, but to 
 stay until the season opens'?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, with all their hardships, they propose to stay in Indiana?— 
 A. I have not heard of any of them who wanted to go back. 
 
 Q. Then with all their hardships, Indiana is better than North Caro¬ 
 lina ?—A. I do not know, sir ; I have not spoken to any of them except 
 as they came to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Then you know in a general way that these ^people who are there 
 propose to remain until they find work?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. They do not propose to go back?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There have been individual instances of these men returning 
 I home?—A. I do not know of seeing a single case. 
 
 Q. Y r ou do not?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. As you have come in contact with them, what is their expression 
 generally as to their condition in Indiana as compared with what it was 
 in North Carolina?—A. I never went into a general talk with them as 
 to that. 
 
 Q. Then I understand that your contact with them has only been 
 where it afforded you a dollar?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your contract has been in a business way?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Whoily?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your Republican feeling for them has been purely sentiment¬ 
 al ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you know of anybody raising money to send to the South or 
 to send agents South iu the interest of the exodus?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then all the money that was raised, so far as you know, was to 
 help the destitute?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion or understanding, from general reports, as 
 to whether colored men are allowed to vote their sentiments in North 
 Carolina?—A. I have no mind on the subject; I can say from the re¬ 
 ports in the Republican papers, that I do not think they have the right 
 to vote as they please. 
 
 Q. Y^our opinion is, then, that they do not have a fair vote, and when 
 they are allowed to vote, they are cheated out of it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, And as a Republican you wish them to come to Indiana and have 
 the right to vote as they please?—A. Yes, sir; as Indiana is a little 
 close State, you know. 
 
 Q. You spoke of some of these negroes going to Shelbyville. Do you 
 know anything about that?—A. Yes, sir; I heard some of them lauded 
 there. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything of a demonstration by the Democrats when 
 they landed here ?—A. I did in the papers. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you have heard of Republican papers 
 criticising Mr. Voorhees for raising this committee?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you not seen Democratic papers doing the same thing?—A. 
 Y"es, sir; I have seen a few slips from them. 
 
 Q, Then you have seen papers on both sides that thought there was 
 nothing in it?—A. Yes, sir; but I do not think our own Democratic 
 paper has said anything of the kind. 
 
 Q. What do you know of mobs and threats to prevent these people 
 from coming iuto the State?—A. I do not think there is any opposition 
 to them in Indianapolis. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 207 
 
 Q. Do you know of any anywhere else in the State?—A. Nothing, 
 except what I have heard from the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Then those facts you know nothing about?—A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you not understand that the Democratic opposition to the ne¬ 
 groes coming to Indiana is because the negroes were expected to vote 
 the Eepublican ticket?—A. Well, I think they claim that. 
 
 Q. Then the Republicans are in favor of it and the Democrats are 
 against it. Flow do you account for that?—A. I think the main oppo¬ 
 sition is, as it is stated in the Democratic papers, that they think every 
 colored man who is employed will throw the white man out of employ¬ 
 ment. 
 
 Q. I did not ask you how they put it.—A. Well, I think the way the 
 negro votes is the main object with them in their opposition. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. But you say the negroes’ vote was your main object in wanting 
 them to come to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; I am not specially fond of the 
 negro for himself. 
 
 Q. You do not hanker after them ?—A. No, sir; it was his vote that 
 I wanted. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Is it not your opinion that a good colored man in Indiana is better, 
 on patriotic grounds, for the country than a white Democrat?—A. I 
 would not like to answer that. We have a very line trade among the 
 Democrats, and I have a number of friends among them, and I have a 
 great many personal friends amongst the Democracy. If it would suit 
 you just as well, Senator, I would not like to answer that question. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. You say you know this man Perry ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any interview with him since you came heri?—A. 
 Yes, sir; he talked to me the other day down here. 
 
 Q. What did he say?—A. Well, he came up and he button-holed me 
 and said he would rather I would not say anything about our buying 
 those tickets back from Indianapolis to Washington. 
 
 Q. What did you tell him ?—A. I told him I would do my own swear- 
 ing. 
 
 * On motion, the committee adjourned to Wednesday, 10.30 a. m., Feb¬ 
 ruary 4, 1880. 
 
 NINTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Wednesday , February 4, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to its order of adjournment. Present, 
 the chairman and all the members. 
 
 The taking of testimony was resumed, as follows: 
 
 TESTIMONY OF E. B. BORDEN. 
 
 E. B. Borden sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Borden ?—Answer. At Golds- 
 borough. 
 
208 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What is your business'?—A. I am a farmer and president of the 
 bank at our town. 
 
 Q. Mr. Borden, the object of this committee is to investigate the 
 causes of the removal of She colored people from North Carolina to the 
 Northern States, particularly Indiana. Will you please state to the com¬ 
 mittee anything you know that has caused them to make this move¬ 
 ment?—A. I think the condition of our colored people is as favorable 
 as that in any Southern State, especially in which I have traveled ; 
 quite a number of them are very successful farmers and own considera¬ 
 ble property; there are no complaints heard among them now of any 
 injustice being done them. 
 
 Q. Is there any complaint among them of injustice and discrimina¬ 
 tion against them in the administration of the laws '?—A. None that I 
 know of. 
 
 Q. Can you state whether they have had the same chances to acquire 
 property and the same enjoyment of their political rights as the white 
 people ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They exercise them freely ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And without compulsion ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have any of these men gone from your county ?—A. I think very 
 few have gone from our county. I know very few of the men who have 
 gone. Some women and children have gone, but most of those who have 
 left have gone from the county below us, the county of Lenoir. There 
 was one woman who left my plantation. She left her husband and went 
 out to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Her husband did not go ?—A. No, sir. I don’t know whether she 
 left to get rid of him or what motive influenced her to go. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the means taken to bring about this 
 movement or this discontent—if the movement is due to discontent 
 among the colored people ?—A. There are one or two colored men who 
 I understand have been paid to influence them. I have been told by 
 some of our men there that they have secret societies and they swear 
 them to keep quiet about what they are doing. One of the draymen in 
 our town, as man who used to live with me, I spoke to about it, and I 
 learned from him that they are not leaving our place much, and they 
 were excited throughout the country and did not know what to make 
 of the movement. I asked him what he knew about it, the influences 
 that were urging them to go; he said they had been told that they could 
 get big wages; that they could get one dollar and a half and houses to 
 live in and plenty of work. There was a man by the name of Taylor 
 Evans who seemed to be active in soliciting them to go, but I don’t 
 know what inducement he held out to them. I asked the man whose 
 wife left my place if he heard from her and, he said he ’ad; that she 
 had gotten a situation as a servant in a house. I asked him if he in¬ 
 tended following her, and said he did not know; that she was to write 
 home how she was getting along. 
 
 Q. You say that very few have left your county ?—A. Yes, sir; very 
 few. 
 
 Q. You are a planter yourself, and of course you are w T ell acquainted 
 with the agricultural people in your section. There have been things 
 said here in relation to the “ landlord and tenant act.” Will you please 
 explain the operations of that act ?—A. Well, sir, I think its operation 
 may be easily inferred from the act itself. 
 
 Q. It has been said that men were not allowed to have their gardens 
 when working ?—A. That is a mistake ; so far as I know, even those who 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 !09 
 
 hire for wages have a house and wood free; have a garden-patch and 
 are allowed to raise pigs and hogs. 
 
 Q. All these things are not allowed them free, are they ?—A. Yes, sir; 
 even those who rent have it. The customary rental with ns is that the 
 tenant pays one-third of the crop of cotton and corn. In some places 
 the lands are not so good and the rent is lower, but at points not far re¬ 
 moved from town we usually get one-fourth of the cotton and one-third 
 of the corn. 
 
 Q. Don’t they pay in portions of their other raising, such as hogs ?— 
 A. Iso, sir; they pay no portion of anything else that they raise; they 
 generally fatten their hogs oil the crop. 
 
 Q. Then they oidy pay a certain proportion of the leading crops ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it when the landlord furnishes all the stock and implements 
 and supplies necessary for the raising of the crop ?—A. In that case I 
 give them one-third of all they raise. 
 
 Q. That is, you say, when you furnish everything ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you explain the operations of the landlord and tenant act, as 
 it is called, and state what it was intended to subserve ?—A. It was only 
 for the protection of the landlord in the collection of his rents. It goes 
 that far and no farther. I have known of no oppression arising from it. 
 I don’t know that I have ever read it in full, but 1 know it gives the 
 landlord a lieu upon the tenant’s property and crop so far as the rent 
 goes and no farther, and after it is paid the tenants can do as they please 
 with the balance of their crop. 
 
 Q. What is the personal exemption t —A. Five hundred dollars of per¬ 
 sonally and a thousand of realty. 
 
 Q. If that landlord and tenant act were not in force it would be im¬ 
 possible for the landlord to collect his rent ?—A. Yes, sir; and the ten¬ 
 ant could go to the merchants and mortgage his crop and the landlord 
 would lose his rent. 
 
 Q. That law operates oil blacks and whites alike ?—A. Yes, sir; and 
 it prevents the landlord from being cheated if he has a dishonest tenant 
 who would go and mortgage his crop, thereby giving the merchant a 
 prior lien over the landlord. Lt only protects the landlord so far as his 
 rent goes and no farther. 
 
 Q. What is the state of feeling between the white and black people 
 in that country ?—A. It is very kind. 
 
 Q. There are no asperities between the races? 
 ticularly. 
 
 Q. Are there any race difficulties of any note ?- 
 quietest days we have are the days of election, 
 and vote as they please, and generally vote first. 
 
 Q. They are good voters, are they not?—A. Yes, sir, and generally 
 go one way; and of late years I think there has been very little effort 
 made among the white people to get them to vote with them. 
 
 Q. What is the state of parties in your county?—A. Our county is 
 very close. I think there is only one or two hundred difference, and it 
 has gone Republican sometimes. 
 
 Q. By a small majority ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. You speak of the removal of the colored people from your State. 
 Please tell us to what extent any movement of the kiud exists.—A. [ 
 only know of that from the statement of the ticket agent at our place. 
 I think he stated that he had only sold some six hundred tickets. 
 
 14 EX 
 
 -A. No, sir; not par- 
 
 -A. None at all. The 
 The colored people go 
 
210 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Aud you understand that is one of tlie principal points of depart¬ 
 ure?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in it that you could possibly characterize as a 
 removal, in general terms?—A. No, sir; not yet; but it seems to un¬ 
 settle all the other colored people. There was a man there who came 
 to me lor advice. lie had accumulated property and had a house and 
 lot, and lived with me. He came and wanted to borrow some money 
 from me as president of the bank to buy a lot from a man who was 
 going to Indiana. I asked him why he was going, and he said he did 
 not know. He said he could buy the lot very low, and it was a good 
 investment. He came and I let him have the money. He came after- 
 wards when this crowd of three or four hundred left and said, “I guess 
 1 won’t buy that lot.” I asked him why, and he said, “The colored 
 people are ail going to leave here, it seems, and I may have to go myself 
 anyhow.” 
 
 Q. When was this?—A. When the movement first began. 
 
 Q. How long ago was this?—A. Two months ago. I said to him, 
 “You may have to go yourself?” and he said, “Yes; I do not under¬ 
 stand it as it is.” I said, “There is no compulsion about it, is there? ” 
 and he seemed to avoid the question. 
 
 Q. You speak of that case in particular; but don’t you think there is 
 a very general state of unrest among them?—A. Yes, sir; there was 
 up to two or three weeks ago, but now they seem to have quieted down ; 
 but up to the first of the year there was a general feeling of disquiet. 
 
 Q. Y r ou do not think that at the present time there is anything to be 
 alarmed at in the movement?—A. No, sir; they are quiet now, and 
 quite a number of letters have been received from those who have gone, 
 some of which are favorable and some of which are not very favorable. 
 
 Q. Those letters have a soothing effect upon them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any agitation and alarm there lest the labor system of 
 your State should be broken up?—A. Yes, sir; there is some little un¬ 
 easiness that if anything serious in the shape of the movement should 
 take place it would affect the labor system in the farming districts. 
 
 Q. You say you see no cause tor this movement ?—A. No, sir ; I don’t 
 know that there is any particular necessity for it. 
 
 Q. You say that the best class of your people have been alarmed at 
 the prospect of losing their laborers?—A. Yes, sir; they have been, 
 but I think they are not now. 
 
 Q. You think so far as North Carolina is concerned there was no 
 necessity for a Congressional investigation into the causes of this re¬ 
 moval ?—A. I have not said so, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not believed it was necessary for these people to go ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any good people who believe that ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You think some five or six hundred people just got up and went 
 off without any cause?—A. Yes, sir; without any good cause. 
 
 Q. And the movement appears now to have subsided?—A. Yes, sir; 
 they go now at the rate of about ten to fifteen at a time; at first there 
 would be two or three hundred. 
 
 Q. You have a great many there, have you not, who might better 
 their fortunes and the State by leaving?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But the great mass of the colored people there are contented ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. And you think they will be more and more inclined to remain as 
 their condition improves?—A. \ 7 es, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 211 
 
 Q. It seems, then, that it is not a very serious matter after all ?—A. It 
 looks as though it would be. 
 
 Q. In reference to this landlord and tenant act, and the system under 
 which your farm labor is performed-—-A. I understand that the colored 
 people are the tenant class ; but that law would apply to white and 
 colored alike. 
 
 Q. What proportion of white and colored are there in your vicinity?— 
 A. In my vicinity the most of them are colored. After you get away 
 from the city they are mostly colored. They also have a habit of con¬ 
 gregating around the villages. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of white and colored people who do work 
 under this act; that is, to rent land ?—A. I don’t know the proportion ; 
 1 should think three-fourtlis of them are colored. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of colored people among those who rent 
 land in the State, if you can form any judgment of it ? —A. I could not, 
 because I think in the western part of the State they are mostly white. 
 A very large proportion out there is white. 
 
 Q. The western part of the State you think has a small renting pop¬ 
 ulation ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The law applies principally to the eastern part of the State and to 
 the black people ?—A. Yes, sir ; it applies to some, but not to all. 
 
 Q. But as a rule a man who rents land is a colored man?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that the ordinary rule is that the tenant 
 shall have two-thirds or three-fourtlis of the crop, and the landlord one - 
 third or one-fourth ?—A* Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And each takes of the proportion and the division of the crop ?— 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The tenant of course handles it and harvests it, and the landlord 
 has his lien on it. Who markets it? Who turns it into money ?—A. 
 The party to whom it belongs. After the man pays his rent he is at lib¬ 
 erty to sell the remainder. 
 
 Q. He pays his rent first, does he ?—A. Yes, sir; he saves out two or 
 three bales for a horse crop. 
 
 Q. What is that?—A. That is for twenty-five or thirty acres. 
 
 Q. That is what a man can cultivate with one horse?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q He has everything he raises except the bales of cotton he pays 
 for his crop?—A. Generally the first picking. He pays his rent and 
 then he is at liberty to do what he pleases with the balance. 
 
 Q. About what season of the year is this division made?—A. If you 
 rent for a certain fixed rental it is made in October. They generally 
 take enough out of that crop. 
 
 Q. He pays his rent in kind?—-A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the payment consists of nothing but a division of the crop ? 
 —A. Y^es, sir; where a man rents for four bales he pays for four bales, 
 but he goes on the same land for a third time, and that is not divided 
 until it is kept out. 
 
 Q. What is the occasion of any lien, then, by the landlord on the entire 
 crop?—A. Well, sir, you know the cotton crop is about three months 
 being harvested. The landlord, if he has got a trusty tenant on his 
 place, makes him keep out four or five bales which the tenant tells him 
 to take on his rent. The other he keeps to use for himself, and when 
 he gathers again he divides again. Of course the crop cannot be divi¬ 
 ded until it is gathered. Going over it the first time he could keep out 
 two or three bale,s. If there are three he takes two, and the landlord 
 one if he knows he has enough to pay the rent. Two or three weeks 
 
212 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 afterwards be goes over it again and picks out, getting two or three 
 more bales, and then he divides it again, giving the landlord his portion 
 and the tenant keeping his portion. 
 
 Q I do not see under this operation any occasion for the landlord’s 
 lieu —A. Well, sir, suppose a landlord was not protected, and suppose 
 the man who is on his land is a thriftless tenant and has used all his 
 money and as much credit as he could get, he could mortgage his whole 
 crop and thereby cut the landlord out of his rent altogether. 
 
 Q. Is there any principle of law in your State which would allow him 
 to mortgage more than his interest in the crop?—A. Yes, sir; but un¬ 
 derstand me. Suppose the landlord does not live on his place, and the 
 land he rents is 4 or 5 miles from his place of residence; the tenant 
 might say to him, “I will pay you out of the last crop ”; and if the land¬ 
 lord is not allowed to watch him and make him pay, he would market 
 all of it, and the landlord would have to lose his rent. 
 
 Q. Then the law is to guard the landlord against a thriftless tenant ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it is made a universal mortgage for that purpose ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And on the principle that most of the people who labor are thrift¬ 
 less?—A. No, sir; I don’t know as to that. 
 
 Q. Do you know any place in the wide world where the laboring 
 classes are put iu a condition of that kind except it be in North Caro¬ 
 lina or elsewhere in the South ?—A. I don’t know the laws of other 
 States. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that in the State of North Carolina the colored la- 
 liorers are kept in a condition of poverty and not allowed to accumulate 
 property?—A. I never heard any complaiuts of that kind. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to be understood that you never heard any com¬ 
 plaints that this a landlord and tenant act” operated harshly upon 
 them ?—A. No, sir; I never did. 
 
 Q. You are a planter, I believe, sir ?—A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Do you know, from the public prints and other sources of informa¬ 
 tion, that there is a burden of.complaints about this act?—A. I know 
 the politicians have been agitating it. 
 
 Q. I mean the public prints, too.—A. Well, sir, they are political 
 sheets. I never heard of any complaints about from the negroes them¬ 
 selves. 
 
 Q. You have known of complaints on the part of the negroes ?—A. 
 Not in my section. 
 
 Q. I mean in the State?—A. No, sir; I don’t know as to any in the 
 State. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that there are no complaints about it?—A. I 
 don’t mean to say that there are not some complaints, but I don’t re¬ 
 member to have seen or heard of any. 
 
 Q. Is it not pretty generally a fact that upon the interest of the laborer 
 in the crop there is an order made and it is liable for it? There has 
 been a good deal of talk here about these orders.—A. Yes, sir ; but the 
 landlord is responsible for them after they are given. 
 
 Q. You have given them yourself?—A. I never have. 
 
 Q. Tell me what one of these orders is like.—A. I don’t know if I get 
 at what you are driving at. 
 
 Q. But ia case the tenant wants credit at a store, if the landlord is 
 not a merchant, the landlord simply gives him credit, or rather an order 
 on the merchant for five dollars’ worth of goods; at the same time he 
 charges him with it; in other words,although the tenant puts his work 
 in the crop, it cannot be divided until it is gathered?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 213 
 
 Q. And he must live all the time?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he is without any property himself and cannot get any credit 
 from the merchant and must fall back upon the landlord, and he gives 
 an order?—A. Yes, sir; still there are a good many colored men who 
 go and mortgage their interest in the crop. 
 
 Q. That is subject to any interest the landlord has ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He knows it is subject for the rent?—A. Transactions like that 
 depend altogether upon the interest of the tenant, and in such cases it 
 is optional with him whether he will get his supplies from the landlord 
 or directly from the merchant. 
 
 Q. He is to pay just what they charge him ?—A. He pays the same as 
 any man who has no credit of his own. 
 
 Q. Under this law and its operations, as you explain them, must not 
 these laborers be kept in that condition all the time?—A. I think its 
 operations are the same both as to the wTites and blacks. 
 
 Q. Is not this system one under which he must continually labor as 
 hard as he can and live economically, and yet end every year without 
 means to go on ?—A. No, sir. I think not; anyhow, he has his labor. 
 
 Q. Yes, but has he not means of competing for fair wages ?—A. Yes,, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Can they earn more than enough to keep them i i bare necessities 
 of life?—A. Yes, sir; they can make money by pracvcing economy and 
 save what they earn. 
 
 Q. Yes, but the point is, if 1 understand you, to get what he earns.— 
 A. I infer from your question that you think there is a combination be¬ 
 tween the merchant and the landlord to cheat the negro. 
 
 Q. Is it not fair to assume that is w r hat it is, if this statute assumes 
 that the laborer will cheat his landlord?—A. No, sir; I have not said 
 that. 
 
 Q. But here is the statute law of your State.—A. Yes, sir; but it 
 applies to both alike. 
 
 Q. Well, to change the question a little, is there anything in this act— 
 a power in the hands of the landlord, or of the merchant, or between 
 the two—to keep the laborer poor ?—A. No, sir; not at all. If he is eco¬ 
 nomical and saves his crop, it only takes them one year or more to be 
 independent. 
 
 Q. Then if the law does not. operate that way it must be owing to the 
 reason that human nature is better in North Carolina than elsewhere.— 
 A. I don’t know 7 , sir, as to that. 
 
 Q. Is not the disposition of the hiring classes to make the best they 
 can of their labor?—A. Yes, sir; I suppose it is. 
 
 Q. Is it not the disposition of those w r ho Hire them to make the best 
 terms and profit possible from the laborer ?—A. Yes, rr; the best they 
 can honestly. 
 
 Q. In your State men look to their owm advantage i-\ making a trade 
 with others?—A. Yes, sir; that is human nature. 
 
 Q. Would a landed man with capital, coming in contact with the labor¬ 
 ing man, have an advantage over the laborers ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, then, they would have that advantage any way, and, in addi¬ 
 tion to that, you have protected this all-powerful class by giving a mort¬ 
 gage—a statute mortgage—ou all that the poor produces ?—A. We have, 
 so far as the rent goes. 
 
 Q. Is that not all that it gets ?—A. No, sir ; he gets two-thirds of the 
 crop when he furnishes all the supplies himself, aud one-third when they 
 are furnished to him. 
 
 Q. And that is all he gets for his labor ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
214 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 Q. And meanwhile the landlord and merchant are creating indebted¬ 
 ness against that interest?—A. Yes, sir: if he runs his credit, they are. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think in that they have an advantage which would 
 make them get to taking all his productions as far as possible ?■—A. No, 
 sir; I cannot say that. 
 
 Q. Cannot the merchant, taking a barrel of flour worth $G, say to 
 this man that is obliged to have it, that he must have $10 for it ?—A. 
 He might say that to him, but 1 think the man would not buy it. 
 
 Q. Then he must starve?—A. No, sir; I don’t think they will ever 
 be brought to that condition. 
 
 Q. Don’t they have to use their credit to the full extent that they can 
 get it?—A. I think there are not more than one or two who get more 
 than $5 credit out of a merchant; of course the thrifty ones will go all 
 they can. 
 
 Q. Where do they get their provisions ?—A. Where they are not 
 furnished with supplies, they get them as I stated to you, by raising 
 hogs and cultivating a garden and small patch. A thrifty colored 
 family can live on what they raise, very nearly. If they have a half 
 dozen hogs they are not likely to eat them all up in a mouth. I think 
 it is only those who are disposed to be thrifty who rent lands, and 
 others hire out for wages. 
 
 Q. What proportion hire for wages, do you suppose?—A. I suppose 
 nine-tenths. 
 
 Q. Then, all this talk about renters applies to only one-tenth of the 
 population ?—A. I suppose that is so small it would be nearer probably 
 to say that seventy-five per cent, hire for wages. 
 
 Q. How are they situated ?—A. I only know of them in my own sec¬ 
 tion ; there they get so much a month. 
 
 Q. How many months do they work ?—A. I hire them from January 
 to September for wages. 
 
 Q. Is that the ordinary rule ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Q. What do you pay them ?—A. I pay eight to ten dollars per month 
 and give them half of it at the end of the month. 
 
 Q. In money ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That eight or ten dollars per month is his rations?—A. YYs, sir ; 
 the first of September is the commencement of our picking season, and 
 they all make more money in the fall months than any other. They 
 prefer to hire until September, and then they hire out to pick cotton by 
 the hundred. Any good picker can make a dollar a day, and gets it 
 every Saturday night. This is the universal rule, I think, in the cotton 
 region. 
 
 Q. How long is the cotton-picking season?—A. From about Hie tenth 
 of September to the latter part of December. 
 
 Q. That is about three months?—A. Yes, sir; but they cannot make 
 these wages in the latter part of the season, because the cotton gets 
 scarcer. 
 
 Q. How much do they average?—A. The first month they get, on an 
 average, a dollar a day. I have known some boys ten years old to pick 
 three hundred pounds in a day, while there are some men who won't 
 pick more than two hundred. 
 
 Q. How much do they get for picking by the hundred ?—A. Fifty 
 cents. In picking cotton it depends more on skill than strength. 
 
 Q. How is it as to the remainder of the season ?—A. As cotton gets 
 lighter they don’t get so much. They generally pick until cotton gets 
 scarce and light so that they can only get seventy five and a hundred 
 pounds a day ; then they only get about fifty cents a day. In the latter 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 215 
 
 part of the season it gets colder and they go to work later. They go to 
 work any time they please, and generally late. 
 
 Q. Docs this state of things apply to the average laborers; say 
 three-fourths of the colored laborers of North Carolina?—A. In the east¬ 
 ern section of the State, I think it does. 
 
 Q. There is not a very large proportion of the crop, then, that is raised 
 by these renters of land. The landlord and laborer must raise the 
 most of it ?—A. They raise the larger part of it, of course. Men in the 
 community there farm different; some entirely under the tenant system 
 and some by hired labor. 
 
 Q. Take this laboring class who hire for wages, and how is it with re¬ 
 gard to their accumulating money?—A. My observation and experience 
 is that they save a very little money. 
 
 Q. Why is that?—A. I suppose it is because they have no disposition 
 to accumulate. They appear to be satisfied if they get a living. 
 
 Q. Don’t you suppose that many of them think if they remained there 
 they would do no better than that ?—A. I think it satisfies most of them 
 anywhere they go. 
 
 Q. I)o you think those who went to Indiana were well satisfied l —A. I 
 think not, or they would not have gone. 
 
 Q. What do you suppose they went for ?—A. If you take the negroes 
 as a class, they are migratory in their disposition. I don’t think they 
 have any local attachments, and it is very rare when you find them so. 
 
 Q. Then this exodus is simply a change of direction ; they are going 
 North instead of drifting around in the South ?—A. I have not searched 
 for the causes, but I suppose inducements were held out to go. 
 
 Q. They go to some places where they are told they would get better 
 wages?—A. I have been told so; there was a man sent by the colored 
 people, or rather money raised by them to send him out to view the 
 land—he came back—and to report to them ; he reported to them that ho 
 was treated very differently out there from what he was in North Caro¬ 
 lina; that he was asked to ride around with white people and invited 
 into their parlors and entertained by their daughters. 
 
 Q. \ r ou think these were the inducements to these people to go?—A. 
 I think it is natural that they wanted to go there. 
 
 . Q. They are not treated that way by the white people of North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you see much change in the condition of timse colored people, 
 or any likelihood of a change for the better?—A. Yes, .sir. If they 
 have a disposition they can improve. 
 
 Q. Is there any such disposition among them ?—A. Yes, sir; 1 know 
 one man, a colored man, who started after the war with nothing, but 
 whose note I would take for $2,000 anywhere. 
 
 Q. Where does he live?—A. lie lives twelve miles from Golds¬ 
 boro ugh. 
 
 Q. But you see no general disposition to improve ?—A. No, sir; I 
 think all they want is enough to live on. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think a majority of their employers take from them in 
 some way or other all that they don’t need to live on ?—A. I don’t know, 
 sir; I think the employers pay them all they can afford to. / 
 
 Q. The question is whether these- dependent classes do as well there 
 as they would anywhere else under the same laws—don’t you think that 
 they believe they can do better when they leave ?— A. I never heard 
 the matter with them, but I don’t think they would have gone out 
 there if inducements had not been held out to them. 
 
 Q. Y r ou think parties go there and tell them they can do better in the 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 North, but you don’t know, ns a rule, that the information they received 
 is correct ?—A. I don’t know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they took pains to find out about their 
 right to vote, and schools, and the “landlord’s and tenant act” before 
 going—some of them are bright enough to do that, are they not?—A. 
 I suppose so, but I don’t think they have acted much on that informa¬ 
 tion, as 1 believe it is only the most thriftless who have gone. 
 
 Q. You have no objection to that, have you ?—A. No, sir; I don’t 
 object to it. 
 
 Q. That rather adds to the wealth of the State ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And so far as North Carolina is concerned she does not want this 
 investigation ?—A. J don’t know what she wants. 
 
 Q. It is fixing these paupers if it stops the exodus?—A. I don’t 
 know that the object of this investigation is to stop the exodus. 
 
 Q. That is its effect, is it not?—A. If the effect of this investigation is 
 to stop the movement, of course it keeps them where they are. 
 
 Q. Understand me, that a'man may be a good laborer and still be a 
 thriftless man and not save his money.—A. He may be a good laborer 
 and still spend all he gets. 
 
 Q. If he spends it, though, lie spends it for the benefit of the land¬ 
 lord, does he not?—A. No, sir 5 the landlord only gets his rent ; the 
 merchants get the balance. 
 
 Q. Then, really, these laboring men remain there as a benefit to the 
 State ?—A. Yes, sir ; any man who produces is a benefit to the people. 
 
 Q. Now, have you not struck the very thing that gave rise to this in¬ 
 vestigation, and that is a disposition to keep these men there, even if 
 they are paupers, and keep them as paupers ?—A. No, sir ; I think the 
 people do not want paupers; I think the most of our people want to 
 see them do well. 
 
 Q. They do work well ?—A. Yes, sir; I prefer them to white labor. 
 
 Q. You say you prefer white labor?—A. No, sir; I prefer colored 
 labor. 
 
 Q. Why ?—A. I don’t know exactly why; I believe, as a rule, they 
 are better laborers than the poor whites. 
 
 Q. They are better laborers you think ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And are as poor as the poor whites, financially ?—A. Yes, sir.; 
 they are poor everywhere. 
 
 Q. Most of them will remain poor?—A. Yes, sir; of course a labor¬ 
 ing man getting eight or ten dollars a month cannot get rich when he 
 has to support himself and a family. 
 
 Q. How many colored men out of a thousand in North Carolina own 
 homesteads ?—A. Very few. 
 
 Q. Are there five in a thousand ?—A. I hardly think so. 
 
 Q. Well, one in a thousand ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think there are. 
 
 Q. Are there two in a thousand ?—A. I cannot give the numbers. 
 
 Q. How do you suppose it is in Indiana?—A. 1 don’t know, sir; but 
 I expect it is different there, as there are very few colored people in the 
 population: 
 
 Q. How many white men in North Carolina don’t own homesteads?— 
 A. A very large proportion of it. 
 
 Q. Then as a rule the laborers, white and colored, are without home¬ 
 steads ?—A. Yes, sir; by a large majority. 
 
 Q. Do you know how it is in Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything that makes a man feel independent like owning 
 liis own homestead ?—A. I suppose that would make him feel so. 
 
 Q. Now, is it not a fact that in Indiana colored and other laborers 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 217 
 
 may earn and have a homestead, while in North Carolina for 15 years 
 they have not been able to acquire one, a good reason why they leave 
 North Carolina and go to Indiana ?—A. I don’t know that they have 
 homesteads in Indiana. 
 
 Q. But if they understand it to be as 1 have stated is that not a fact 
 to account for the movement?—A. I don’t kuow. I have never been 
 in Indiana in my life. I am not posted in regard to tkatNtate. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge of the condition of the laboring people 
 except about Goldsboro’ and its vicinity ?—A. I really don’t know much 
 about the condition of the laboring people outside of my State, except 
 what I have seen in the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Are you unwilling to see men with the hope of getting home¬ 
 steads ? It operates very strongly upon colored laborers who live in 
 North Carolina to go North ?—A. I have no idea the majority of them 
 have thought of it. I don’t think they had any such idea in leaving. 
 
 Q. Your opinion of the tendencies and ambitions of the colored race 
 are not very high?—A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Mr. Blair evidently does not understand the landlord and tenant 
 act. It was made for the protection of the landlord ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if its operation does not benefit the tenant ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I think so: such as anything else. 
 
 Q. The fact that this lien there gives him credit ?—A. Yes, sir; it 
 gives him the opportunity of having something at the end of his time 
 that he would not have had otherwise. 
 
 Q. Has it not had a tendency to improve them as farmers and in¬ 
 crease their desire to farm ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It gives the landlord his rent and the farmer his supplies?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you such fools in North Carolina as to think they can make 
 more money out of paupers than men with money ?—-A. I stated that X 
 think the general desire of our people is to see them thrifty; they are 
 worth more to us when they have property, and are better citizens and 
 laborers. 
 
 Q. Mr. Blair also tried to get you to say that this act was passed upon 
 the supposition and assumption that all the laboring class were dishon¬ 
 est, and the landlord needed protection against them ?—A. I don’t think 
 that motive actuated the legislators to vote for it. 
 
 Q. They have laws in New Hampshire against stealing; do you think 
 that all Mr. Blair’s people are thieves because they have such a law 
 against thieves ?—A. No, sir ; I do not think so. 
 
 Q. The man who is honest and who pays his reut does not feel the 
 operation of the law; it is never enforced against him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 (Note by stenographer. —The testimony of T. C. Groomes, of 
 Greencastle, Indiana, was taken upon this and the next succeeding 
 day, but owing to delay in tbe transmission of certain extracts to be 
 included in his testimony the report thereof is added at the conclusion 
 of the entire testimony.) 
 
 On motion the committee adjourned to Friday, February G, at 10 
 
 a. m. 
 
218 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 TENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, D. 0., Friday , February G, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. Present, the chairman 
 and all the members. The taking of testimony was resumed as follows: 
 
 TESTIMONY OF C. S. WOOTEN. 
 
 C. S. Wooten sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. State where you reside.—Answer. In Lenoir County, North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am a farmer now. 
 
 Q. We want to know something about the causes of this exodus 
 movement, if you have any knowledge of the movement.—A. Yes, sir; 
 it is a movement started there on my plantation (mine and my brother’s) 
 last summer. I think it was some time in July that this man Perry 
 made a speech at Kinston urging this movement. There was nothing 
 said about it much then, and I did not know the colored people were 
 going to take any steps in the matter; but he organized on mv planta¬ 
 tion a secret society, and he made each one pay him twenty-five cents 
 to become a member. The first idea was to go to Kansas, and the next 
 was to go to Indiana. And he made them believe that they would go 
 free. He said the government was going to pay the expenses of it, and 
 they told me so. I said to them that it was not so; that the govern¬ 
 ment would not and could not pay their expenses; that it would not 
 pay their expenses any more than mine; and I said to them that I 
 would not let people know I was such a fool as to believe it, and I 
 ridiculed it, so that I heard no more about it or this man Perry. 
 We live about three miles from the railroad, and he taught a free- 
 school there in the neighborhood. 1 and my brother had about fifty 
 families on our plantations. He made that his headquarters and 
 organized this society, and then would have secret meetings. They 
 met in an outhouse there and put out sentinels to keep people awajv 
 It was going on all along in the fall, and I did not know anything 
 about it until they were making arrangements to get off, and I got 
 one of the boys to tell me all about it after they had left. The first 
 crowd left my place about the middle of November. There was one 
 man who had a wife, Allen Smith ; he went on to make arrangements to 
 secure a place about the middle of November. He wrote a letter back 
 giving glowing accounts of Indiana, and telling them to come on. And 
 the next two weeks after, I think about the first of December, on Sun¬ 
 day night, all of our negroes bundled up and w r ent. They had an idea 
 that on Monday a free train would rim from Goldsborough, and they 
 bundled up and went off. 
 
 Q. How many went ?—A. Thirty families, and left us only eight or ten 
 families on the place. 
 
 Q. How did they go % —A. They went away in wagons, and walked 
 some of them—any way they could get to go. It was fourteen miles to 
 Goldsborough ; and after they got away, about ten o’clock, we got a tele¬ 
 graph dispatch from Allen Smith telling them not to come. It was too 
 late, though, to stop them, but some of them didn’t get oft*; some of 
 them staid there two weeks, and my brother went and showed them 
 the dispatch, and they would not believe it; they said we had manu¬ 
 factured it, because we didn’t want them to leave. I said, u I hope you 
 will give us some credit for sense, for, if we wanted to keep you by man- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 219 
 
 ufacturinga dispatch, we would have had the dispatch here before you 
 started oil.” 
 
 Q. Did all of them go away ?—A. No, sir ; some two or three families 
 came back. They got to Goldsborough and could not get off, and they 
 caine back and asked if I would let them come back to work. I said, 
 u If you have got well of the Indiana fever you can come, but if you 
 propose to still keep up this idea I do not want to have you demoralize 
 the other hands.” And they promised that they would stop it, and they 
 are there now at work. This fellow Perry made a speech there at 
 Kinston, and went on to tell them that they were oppressed and cheated 
 out of the fruits of their labor, and they ought to go where they would 
 have their rights. The editor of the Journal there commented on his 
 speech and denied it, and this fellow Perry came out two weeks after¬ 
 wards in a letter and said that myself and brother and a Mr. Rouse were 
 exceptions, and did not cheat our hands; but more of these emigrants 
 left our place than went from any other. 
 
 Q. And Perry, you say, got twenty-five cents from each of them ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; Perry and Williams; they had lived there in our section. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they got from the railroad to work up this 
 movement'?—A. I heard they got a dollar for every ticket sold, but the 
 negroes said they paid him to join the society twenty-five cents each. 
 
 Q. Where is this man Perry from ?—A. lie is originally from Chat¬ 
 ham County, and came down there a few years ago to teach school. 
 
 Q. Describe your system of renting, Mr. Wooten.—A. Sometimes 
 we hire for wages. 
 
 Q. How much do you pay ?—A. On an average of ten dollars. On 
 my plantation I and my brother farm together, and we work a good 
 many hands. We allow every one of them to have as much land as he 
 wants to tend for himself, as we have plenty of land, fifteen hundred 
 acres of clear land and a thousand of woods, and we allow them that 
 free of rent. 
 
 Q. Is that to those you hire?—A. Yes, sir; they work with us to 
 Saturday dinner, and during Saturday afternoon we allow them to use 
 our mules and plows in their own crops, and do not charge them any¬ 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Do you pay your hands ten dollars a month, give them a house 
 free and fire-wood, and land to tend ?—A. Yes, sir; and if he wants ten 
 acres he can have it. 
 
 Q. And half the day Saturday and your teams?—A. Yes, sir; and a 
 good, thrifty, industrious hand will make $50 to $100 extra if he works. 
 
 Q. Do you hire them all the year through ?—A. Yes, sir ; from Janu¬ 
 ary to January. 
 
 Q. During the cotton season, too?—A. Yes, sir; but during that 
 season we have to take in extra hands, and we pay fifty cents a hundred. 
 The women and children pick out the cotton, and the extra hands join 
 in ginning and picking. 
 
 Q. Is that about the general rule that you and your brother pursue? 
 —A, Yes, sir; it is pretty general in our section in relation to hire. 
 
 Q. When you furnish a team and feed it, and furnish all the imple¬ 
 ments, you give one-third of the crop to the tenant and three hundred 
 pounds of bacon to the mule?—A. Some give two-fifths, but I give 
 them the choice. They can take two-fifths, or take three hundred 
 pounds of meat and the fourth. 
 
 Q. And the tenant furnishes only his labor?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you give him one third of the crop ?—A. Yes, sir; of cotton 
 and corn. 
 
220 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. That does not include bis patch that he cultivates for himself?— 
 A. No, sir; that is all extra. 
 
 Q. And that, you say, is the general system through that country?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do your average lands make to the acre?—A. Of course the 
 lands differ somewhat. If you have small lots of good land, you gen¬ 
 erally make four hundred pounds of cotton to the acre, but we make an 
 average of two hundred and fifty to three hundred pounds of lint cot¬ 
 ton to the acre. 
 
 Q. That is about forty to fifty bales to the two hundred acres ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose an industrious man rents land from you, how much can 
 lie make ?—A. 1 require fifteen acres of cotton and twenty of corn to the 
 plow, and that land, I calculate, manuring it as I do, would pay $150 
 worth of cottou, and the land will make three to four barrels of corn ; 
 that would be seventy-five to eighty barrels, and he would get one-third, 
 and that would be about $225 that he would get, besides his supplies, 
 house-rent, and fire-wood, and all that. 
 
 Q. Does one man tend that much ?—A. He cannot do all the work ; 
 one hand cannot do all the planting and manuring, but he can do it all 
 up to chopping time, when it wants four times going over; that would 
 cost him seven dollars each time, and make about thirty dollars of ex¬ 
 pense; he would have to hire help in picking out, making his expenses 
 probably $00 in all, and he would make all the balance. The three hun¬ 
 dred pounds of bacon I furnish would feed him, and he would be at no 
 extra expense for food. 
 
 Q. Have you received any news from these people since they left ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I have received letters from them. 
 
 Q. Are they doing any better there than they were on your planta¬ 
 tion?—A. No, sir; they want to get back. There is one letter which I 
 got from a negro woman, written January 5, 18S0. 
 
 The witness read the letter as follows: 
 
 Mr. S. I. Wootyn: 
 
 Bell union, Putmon Co., Ind., 
 
 Janary bth, 1830. 
 
 Sir, I am now in Ind. in the worst fist I ever was in and all the days of my life. 
 ] am out of does, and I have not got no where to go and uo house to sta in day aud 
 or night and no boddy wount let me in with them and I have not got nothing to eat 
 and nothing to dow to get not a cents worth for myself nor nay childdran to eat no 
 boddy wount implore a woman that have childdran and no husban brother Alien 
 would let mo stay with him but the man that he lives with dout want him to take 
 no.orther famlye with him and I am a sufreu here plese send me some money to 
 get back with to your plantation and I will work with you till you say you are pad 
 and never will leve agaiu plese send it to Bell union, Pntnom Co., lad. in the care 
 of Allen Smith and I will come as soon as I get it. 
 
 Mr. Wooten please send me 25 dollars and I will worke with you till you ar well 
 pad Mis. Sarah Smith plese write soon and let me know. 
 
 The Witness. Now, I received a letter from a sister of this woman, 
 Chloe Smith. She wrote about the same thing; she wanted to get 
 back, and I wrote to the sheriff of Putnam County making inquiries 
 about her. This is the reply which I got from the sheriff. 
 
 The witness read the following letter: 
 
 Sheriff’s Office, Putnam County, 
 
 Grcencastle, Ind., January 22, 13S0. 
 
 Messrs. S. I. Wooten & Bro., 
 
 La Grange, N. C.: 
 
 Dear Sirs : Your favor of the 19th inst. is received, and contents noted. After quite 
 a hunt 1 found Chloe, aud the old woman is iu a most deplorable condition. She 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 221 
 
 makes a most piteous appeal to your sympathy for help. I have just had a talk with 
 our railroad agent in regard to the most available route aud the cost, Ac. They can 
 only procure tickets as far as Washington City, aud the cheapest) rates are $20.05 for 
 each person over ten years of age. It will cost Chloe’s son full fare, $20.05. Sarah 
 Smith has gone out to the country, some lifteen miles, with Allen Smith. Their post- 
 office address is Belle Union, Putnam County. I think she can get through on one fare, 
 her children being so small. Any assistance I can render you or them I will gladly 
 do. Chloe will be at my office some time this evening to have me write you a letter 
 for her. 
 
 Respectfully, 
 
 M. T. LEWMAN, 
 Sheriff. 
 
 The Witness. Last week I sent forty-two dollars to pay their ex¬ 
 penses to this place, and I wrote to the sheriff to buy her a ticket, she 
 and her boy, to this place, and meet me here last Wednesday. I had 
 not heard anything from them, though, until yesterday evening. 1 tele¬ 
 graphed to the sheriff to know if they had started, and here is the dis¬ 
 patch I got from him in reply : 
 
 To C. S. Wooten : 
 
 Chloe desires to take her daughter with her. 
 will send them all on to-night. 
 
 Gi.eencastle, Ind., 
 
 February 5,1880. 
 
 Send $11 more by telegraph, and I 
 M. T. LEWMAN. 
 
 The Witness : This .daughter of hers is a grown woman ; her hus¬ 
 band was on, and she wanted to come back. I said I would not send 
 the money, but it he would go to work he could raise fifteen or twenty 
 dollars to get her back; that I would help to get the old woman back, 
 and he could get her back himself. Now, she wants to bring her with 
 her, as she is in a critical condition, and does not like to leave her. 
 
 Q. That accounts tor her not coming on Wednesday?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you got any others?—A. I have got a letter from Franklin 
 Jones, a fellow who lived on our plantation. This man Perry was ar¬ 
 rested there in our county for forging a school-order. His brother was 
 a public-school teacher, and this fellow was charged with forging a pay 
 order and drawing too much ; and some of the citizens got out a war¬ 
 rant against him for forgery, and they sent for me to come out there aud 
 prosecute him. I used to practice law some years ago. I went aud 
 prosecuted him, and he had to give a hundred-dollar bond. He could 
 not raise it, and the negroes raised the money and deposited it with the 
 officers to aid him ; and this man Jones was one of the riugleaders in 
 doing this thing, raising this money. I heard that Jones was making 
 threats that Perry should not go to jail, unless it was over his dead 
 body ; and when I went out there, there were a good many of them with 
 sticks standing about, and I heard of these threats, but went on ; and 
 when Perry’s case was taken up, they were there in force, but behaved 
 themselves very well. 
 
 (The witness here read the following letters) : 
 
 January the 17 1879 Greencasel 
 
 Mr to Woot 
 
 Sir I take my pen in hand to drop you a fewe lines to let you know that I am 
 well at this time hoppen when thes few lines lines rech you the will fine you the same 
 I is not sadfi d heare and wont to come home aud wont if you pleaze help me to come 
 home and if you will I will pay you as suue as I can tell Mr tom wootten that I wost 
 he wood help me home aud all off the boays pary wont to come home Mr to Wootten 
 have fond it just lake you sead these pepel hare dont not like black pepel as well as the 
 whit pepel do thare I like old N C than enny stat I have seen tel) all of my inqerren 
 fred that the had better stay home tell Nanc Lucy Smith Smith dont come hear for 
 
222 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 tho cannot get anny work to do tell rolley wooten that wife wont him to send for 
 bear as soou as he can tell will liam wootten to stay at home are passt off tho pepel 
 is not jot no pace to stay tell Nauc Lucy Smith that her morther wont to com home 
 Children hav ben warry sick and diing Same porry tole lies in ever thing pleso ex¬ 
 cuse my had hand writte north more to say I remane trend it will take 70 dollers 
 to bring me home 
 
 FRANK JONES 
 
 Mr to Wootten 
 
 Janary the 27,1879 Grcencas 
 
 I take my pen in hand to wriat you a few lines to let you noow that I am weel at 
 this time im hopping when thes few linesrech you the may tine you the same me 
 to Wootten Sir I wash you wood if you pleaz to send me some money to bring me homo, 
 and I will pay you wen I can get thar this is not no place for black pepel for the can 
 not get anny work to doe men can not get vary mutch to doe and I dont want to stay 
 her if you will sen for me I will pay you as swoon as I can my farther an his famley 
 says if you will send for him he will pay you when ever he can get thare tell you 
 brother that I wash he wood if he pleaz to help me home if he will help me I will pay 
 bouth of you 
 
 wriet swoon let menowe wliat you ame to doe north ig more to say 
 I remane as you fren 
 
 FRANK JONES 
 
 Sam perry out to be hung for telling such A falshod a grate meney pepelhe read that 
 work was plenty but it is Not so if the pepel had the riet uuderstening the is not A 
 man in the Stat oft' N C wood not come hear tell yoar brother that I wash he wood 
 help me home to & tell all off the black pepel the had better stay at home womman 
 that is got children can not get a place to stay my baby is dead she dide the 25th de¬ 
 cern her give my love to all of my fren tell Caddery to stay at home for this is a bade 
 State to get your liven the black pepel hear dnt want the N C pepel to come hear al¬ 
 ien Smith send the that a disspatcli to you an he want to Come home all want to Come 
 home 
 
 Sam parry most cost that we all is out hear 
 
 FRINK JONES 
 
 tell peter wootten lhave rot him a letter and is got no ancy 
 
 Here is a letter in liis handwriting, and headed u Sheriffs office, Put¬ 
 nam County, January 20 v : 
 
 Sheriff’s Office, Putnam County, 
 
 Greencastie, Inti., January 2b, 1880. 
 
 S. I. Wooden, 
 
 Dear Sir : Send some money to me and my family, so we can come hack. Send 
 money to sheriff of Putnam County, Ind.; send it by express as soon as you get this 
 letter. It will take about fifty-four dollars to take us all home. Tell all the rest of 
 the colored folks to stay home—not to come up here. I will work for you to pay you 
 back if I live to get homo. Everything you told me when I started I found to be the 
 fact. 
 
 Yours, resp’y, 
 
 FRANKLIN JONES. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any who have returned, to talk with them ?—A. 
 No, sir; but some of them have returned, but I have not seen them. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they have said about it?—A. Mr. Fields, who 
 is summoned here as a witness, went for those two and brought them 
 back. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to state about this movement?—A. I want 
 to say that this idea about their being oppressed among us is all 
 a humbug. The negro has the best chance of any laboring man in the 
 world, if he would just avail himself of his opportunities. They are the 
 best that are offered to any class of laborers. 
 
 Q. You mean agricultural laborers?—A. Yes, sir. To give you an 
 idea, one of those old fellows who left me, with a wife and live children, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 223 
 
 got to Goldsboro’ with ten cents in his pocket. lie had an idea that he 
 would go to Indiana free. I talked with him about it, but you cannot 
 reason with them. He went there and had only ten cents. I went to 
 Goldsboro’ a couple of weeks after ; his wife sent for me and asked to 
 let them come back, and I went up there and let them come. When ho 
 left me he had a house and a patch, good wages, his firewood, and all 
 that I give any of the tenants. But about his patch that I allowed 
 him to cultivate free of charge, I wanted to rent it out, and I examined 
 it, and there was between fifteen and sixteen acres that lie had had for 
 rent free for ten or twelve years. I am going to cultivate it myself, for 
 it is fine, rich land, and make ten bales of cotton on it, yet lie had it 
 rent free, and planted only three or four acres in cotton, making forty 
 or fifty dollars’ worth of cotton which lie would go to town and trade 
 with. I say they have the best advantages given them if they would 
 only avail themselves of those advantages. We have plenty of waste 
 land which they can cultivate if they will only work. 
 
 Q. AVho generally sells their cotton for them and markets it ?—xi. 
 Some of them who had teams of their own rent land and pay me the 
 rent—one-third of the corn and one-fourth of the cotton. The reason 
 they do not get as much cotton is that they have to manure it, and that 
 makes the difference. They gin it at our gin, and when it comes time 
 to sell it, they have the right to go and sell it, but they tell us to sell it 
 because they have an idea we get better prices than they can. We go 
 and sell the cotton for them, and come back and pay them their price 
 for it. We tell them to sell their own cotton, but they say, “ No ; you 
 sell it.” I know a good many white people used to get my father to 
 sell their cotton for them because they thought he could get more for it 
 than they could. 
 
 By Mr. AYindom : 
 
 Q. What is the feeling there now among the colored people ?—A. I 
 think it is rather abating ; that is, right in our section I think there is 
 nothing more said about it. Two or three weeks ago there was some 
 little excitement over, it in Wayne County, but I think that is rather 
 dying out, too. 
 
 Q. Did you write to any of these colored people ?—A.-No, sir ; never 
 to one of them in my life. The first person I wrote to there was the 
 sheriff, making inquiries about them. 
 
 Q. What did you propose to do in that letter?—A. I wrote to know 
 what it would cost to get Chloe Smith and her little boy back. He is a 
 little fellow, 14 or 15 years old, and he wrote that it would cost $20.05. ; 
 and I sent last week $42 to pay their expenses here. 
 
 Q. You wrote to none of them on. the subject?—A. No, sir $ I wrote 
 to the sheriff that I did not want this woman on account of her labor, as 
 I had plenty of that, but it was out of charity to her. 
 
 Q. You read a letter from Sarah Smith and several from Jones?—A. 
 Y r es, sir ; I had two or three from Jones. 
 
 Q. Have you had any letter from any other?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is Perry a man of much influence there ?—A. He did have consid¬ 
 erable influence with the colored people there—enough to stir them up 
 and start them off on this exodus. 
 
 Q. What time did lie come there?—A. He came down sometime 
 since the war from Chatham County. I live at La Grange, 17 miles 
 from Kingston, and 14 or 15 miles from Goldsboro’—between Kingston 
 and Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. Tell us about the 25-cent charge.—A. I heard some of the negroes 
 
224 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 say they had to pay him 25 cents apiece to become members of this 
 society. . V 
 
 Q. Did they tell you what the objects of it were ?—A. No, sir ; I never 
 asked them particularly about it. I know it was to get them off to In¬ 
 diana, and I asked what they paid, and they said twenty-five cents. 
 
 Q. It was originally organized, I understood you to say, to get them 
 off to Kansas'?—A. Yes, sir; and afterwards they changed their desti¬ 
 nation to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether Perry told them their expenses would be 
 paid to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir ; I understood them to say that they ex¬ 
 pected a free train every Monday to carry them out there. 
 
 Q. Who was this man Smith?— 2 V. A colored man who lived there 
 with me. 
 
 Q. Is he out there now?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say?—A. He says he told them not to come. 
 
 Q. That was from Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; I received a dispatch from 
 him on Monday after they had left, about 11 o’clock. They all left that 
 morning, and went up to Goldsboro’. He said in his dispatch to tell all 
 my folks not to come. 
 
 Q. You have not heard direct from him except through that dispatch ?— 
 A. No, sir. These two women that I speak of are his sisters, and this 
 letter from Sarah, l think, is in his handwriting. She cannot write her¬ 
 self. We have received no letter from him personally. 
 
 Q. Do all thenegroes find ready employment in yoursection of country? 
 —A. Of coarse sometimes we are more busy than at others. Of course 
 at this time of the year we are not so busy as in the chopping and pick¬ 
 ing out season ; but it does not cost them anything to live, as they have 
 a house and wood all free, and have this chance to make extra crops. 
 Now this woman, Ghloe Smith, had made enough that she had attended 
 to herself to last her all winter, and had plenty of corn left. 
 
 Q. Do they have the same privileges on other plantations?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; it is a pretty general rule. 
 
 Q. You say the idea of their being oppressed is all humbug ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. There may be individual cases where some of them are oppressed and 
 taken advantage of. 
 
 Q. Do they vote freely ?— 2 V. Yes, sir ; I have seen no intimidation in 
 that regard except it was where the negroes intimidated one who wanted 
 to vote the Democratic ticket. 
 
 Q. Is there much of that?—A. No, sir; for there are not many of 
 them who want to vote that way. 
 
 Q. What are the politics of your section of the country ?— 2 Y My sec¬ 
 tion of the country is a large Kepublican and negro district. They have 
 12,000 majority there. My county has always been Kepublican except 
 in 1874, when they nominated a negro for the legislature, and the white 
 Kepublicans would not vote for him, so a Democrat got in. 
 
 Q. With that exception it has always gone Kepublican ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 and so has my precinct, and I never heard of any intimidation there. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of any complaint that they have made of oppres¬ 
 sion ?—A. No, sir; not any. 
 
 Q. You think they are satisfied and contented ?—A. Yes, sir; except 
 since this movement began. Since Perry went there and stirred them 
 up they have not been so well satisfied. If he had not gone there and 
 disturbed them they would have been there to-day perfectly contented 
 and satisfied. 
 
 Q. Then you attribute it all to Perry?— 2 V. Yes, sir; in our section 
 
 I do. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 225 
 
 Q. And as you understood it lie was hired by the railroad com¬ 
 pany!—A. Yes, sir; I understood from the newspapers that he got a 
 dollar a head for each one he sent off. 
 
 “Q. What proportion of those who left were men?—A. There were 
 thirty families, I suppose, averaging five children to a family. About 
 twenty-five men left, and there were five or six women who were not 
 married who left at the same time. 
 
 Q. So from jour plantation how many went ?—A. One hundred aud 
 twenty-five to one hundred and fifty, including the children. 
 
 Q. And of these twenty-five were men?—A. Yes, sir; and some five 
 or six boys, eighteen or nineteen years old. 
 
 Q. And of all who left you have heard of no dissatisfaction, except 
 from Smith and Jones?—A. No, sir; I have heard of no others except 
 of that man who wanted to get his wife on our plantation. They say 
 there, at least I heard some of the colored people say, that it was all a 
 plot on his part with a gentleman there on the place to get her off. I do 
 not much believe he wants her to come back. 
 
 Q. You read from some letters that they do not like colored people in 
 Indiana?—A. That was in Frank Jones’s letter. 
 
 Q. We have had some evidence here of a man who had a house burnt 
 down in Indiana because of employing them; do you think that would 
 have a tendency to make them want to come back home ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 I read of that case. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is very general evidence of dissatisfaction that 
 two or three want to come back?—A. Jones wrote that all of them 
 wanted to come back. I have heard nothing else though. I will make 
 a statement that on my plantation we have between forty aud fifty 
 families, and not a white family on it. They were all colored. The 
 negro has the preference and all the best land for farming. He is pre¬ 
 ferred as a laborer and a tenant. I prefer them, and I had no white 
 men on my plantation; but after they left, the day after, I had fourteen 
 applications from white men who came in from poor places to get better 
 land, and now I have ten families on my place, and I took them in. I 
 did not know to what extent this movement was going. 
 
 Q. Would it not be an advantage to the white people of North Caro¬ 
 lina to distribute them throughout the country; I mean the negroes ?— 
 A. I do not think it would be a very great disadvantage to our State. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. That is, if the white laborers came in to take their places?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. On the whole, you think it would be au advantage?—A. Yes, sir; 
 though it would disarrange the labor system for a while. 
 
 Q. Then you think there is a superabundance of labor there?—A. 
 Yes, sir; there is plenty of it, and yet we have plenty of territory unde¬ 
 veloped. If we had capital to work it we would use it all. We have 
 undeveloped territory for four or five times the population we have got. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF F. B. FIELDS. 
 
 F. B. Fields sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you live, Mr. Fields?—Answer. At La Grange. 
 Q. In what county?—A. In the county of Lenoir, North Carolina. 
 15 EX 
 
226 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am a retail dealer and distiller 
 of whisky. 
 
 Q. Do you farm any ?—A. No, sir; I have a small farm, but do not 
 farm upon it. 
 
 Q. State if you know anything of the exodus of these colored people 
 from our State.—A. I do not know anything of the cause for it. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of it at all; did you go out to Indiana to 
 see some colored men who left your section ?—A. One of them wrote 
 to me to get back and another telegraphed. 
 
 Q. What were their names?—A. Nathan W"ade and Amos Dawson. 
 
 Q. Did you go ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what you heard and what took place. Tell us about that 
 trip.—A. Well, I went to Indianapolis and found Amos; left him there, 
 when I went to Greencastle after Nathan and brought him back to Indi¬ 
 anapolis that afternoon, and the next day they came home. 
 
 Q. You brought both of them back?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they wanted to come home?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why ?—A. They were not satisfied out there. 
 
 Q. What did they tell you about their condition out there ?—A. They 
 stated it was very poor. 
 
 Q. Did they give you any of the particulars?—A. They stated they 
 could not get work enough to satisfy them and make a living. I asked 
 one of them what he had been doing, and he said he had been shucking 
 corn; he said they called it husking out there. 
 
 Q. He said that he could not get work enough to make a living?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did both of them tell you so ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had they their families with them ?—A. Amos’s family was there 
 with him ; Wade had one in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You say Amos had a family there ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he bring them with him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he leave them there in Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did he leave them ?—A. He did not want them to come; he 
 left them; there had been some general dissatisfaction in the family; 
 they left him first and went on, and he left and went out there to look 
 after them; when he went away he said to me, if I want to come back 
 I want you to help me, and I said I would do it. 
 
 Q. Which one was that, now ?—A. That was Amos Dawson. 
 
 Q. Did you talk to any others ?—A. Yes, sir. Some of them said 
 they were doing well, had plenty of work, and were getting fair pay. 
 I don’t know whether it was true or not, but I did not see them at work. 
 Some of them said so and some did not, and some of them wanted to 
 go back with me. Six of them asked me to bring them back, but I 
 would not do it. 
 
 Q. Six of them wanted you to bring them back ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And some said they were doing well enough ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What have you to say of the condition of these people in Lenoir 
 County ?—A. It was good. 
 
 Q. Is there any oppression of them there?—A. None that I know of. 
 
 Q. They always vote freely there?—A. Yes, sir; in our section they 
 always vote their sentiments, so far as 1 know. 
 
 Q. What are the opportunities of an industrious, sober colored man 
 to make a living compared with the poor white man ?—A. They are the 
 same; any man can make a living who tries. 
 
 Q. W^hat are your politics?—A. I am a Eepublican. 
 
 Q. Is your county a Eepublican county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 227 
 
 Q. And lias been since reconstruction ?—A. Yes, sir; since the war. 
 
 Q. Have you received any letters from colored people out there since 
 your return ?—A. No, sir. If I have I don’t remember it. 
 
 Q. When did you go to Indianapolis ?—A. I got there the last day of 
 December, at night. 
 
 Q. Have you auy information from them since your return ?—A. I 
 can only state that from reports. 
 
 Q. You have a right to speak of what you have heard.—A. I heard 
 it remarked that this man Perry was at the head of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know of his making any speeches in your county?—A. I 
 think I did. I thiuk he made several in La Grange one Saturday even¬ 
 ing, when there was a good many colored people there. I did not hear 
 him. I heard Peter Williams and a man named Barker. 
 
 Q. What did Peter say?—A. I don’t remember. 
 
 Q. Do you know what inducements were held out to these people as 
 to the wages?—A. Only from reports. I heard they said the wages 
 were better than in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What are the average wages of a good hand in your section?—A. 
 They run from six, eight, ten, to twelve dollars a month, according to 
 the hand. 
 
 Q. What lands do they get ?—A. They get a little garden patch and 
 house rent free. 
 
 Q. And fire-wood ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the general rule?—A. Yes, sir, I think it is; it has always 
 been the case on my little farm. 
 
 Q. You have always given them that ?—A. Yes, sir. This man Daw¬ 
 son lived on ray plantation thirteen years. 
 
 Q. As a hireling or as a tenant?—A. Both ; he rented his own farm, 
 and when I wanted to hire him 1 did so. 
 
 Bv Senator Window : 
 
 c/ 
 
 Q. Did anybody go back with you except Dawson ?—A. Dawson and 
 Wade. 
 
 Q. Dawson’s family went away before he did ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he said he was going to look after them and he arranged 
 with you to help them to come back ?—A. Yes, sir; that was his last 
 remark to me. 
 
 Q. Then he was not a genuine exoduster., but went to see after his 
 family ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wade went out to look and see what the advantages were?—A. 
 It is reported that his friends sent him on there, but I don’t know 
 whether it is true or not. 
 
 Q. Did you learn from him anything of that ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You say there were some others who wanted to come back ?—A, 
 Yes, sir ; they asked me if I would carry them. 
 
 Q. Did they state any of their dissatisfaction ?—A. No, sir; they were 
 all strangers to me. I asked their names and they gave them to me. 
 
 Q. Your understanding was that they thought they could do better by 
 going to Indiana % —A. That was the report, that the wages were better 
 .out there. 
 
 Q. But they thought they could better their condition ?—A. That was 
 the report. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of any dissatisfaction that was expressed gener¬ 
 ally among the colored people in North Carolina?—A. Not until this 
 excitement came up. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of any dissatisfaction or anything in the courts ?— 
 
228 . 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 A. No, sir; they have always been doing well and had justice, I be¬ 
 lieve. 
 
 Q. This, yon say, is a strong Republican county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 Q.JAnd Jhe negroes are all Republicans?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JAMES BUCHANAN. 
 
 James Buchanan sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. I)o you reside in Indianapolis, Mr. Buchanan ?—Answer. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am an attorney-at-law. 
 
 Q. Will you please state to the committee whether you have been in 
 any way engaged as to cause you to study the labor question in your 
 State, and to know the demand for labor, the supply, or whether the 
 supply is equal to the demand, and whether at this time or in the last 
 six years there has been any demand for a labor immigration into In¬ 
 diana such as that from North Carolina ?—A. I have been since 1873 
 more or less actively inquiring, for political reasons, into that subject. 
 
 Q. State whether you have been engaged in journalism.—A. Yes, sir; 
 a portion of the time. 
 
 Q. Have you been one of the editors and proprietors of the Indiaua 
 Sun ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are your politics, Mr. Buchanan ?—A. I belong to the Na¬ 
 tional Greenback and Labor party. 
 
 Q. State whether you have devoted much of your time to a discussion 
 of political questions from your standpoint.—A. Yes, sir; somewhat 
 extensively. 
 
 Q. Will you give the committee the result of your examination into 
 this labor question ?—A. The results, as it pertaius to the facts in the 
 State of Indiaua, are these : There is, to state it broadly, no demand for 
 labor in that State that is not amply supplied within the State at any and 
 all seasons of the year ; indeed, there is a surplus of labor in the State at 
 certain seasons of the year. There are perhaps only three or four weeks in 
 the year when all the labor in the State can be profitably employed, and 
 that is the harvest season in the summer time. My position politically 
 brought me in contact with men coming from all parts of the State. At 
 my location in Indianapolis I naturally see numbers of people from every 
 section, as that city bears a relation to all parts of the State that no 
 other capital city of any State on the continent does, since it is in close 
 connection with all parts of the State. There is once in a while a de¬ 
 mand for labor in particular townships. Take the township of Pike, 
 for instance, and there was last year a demand for labor in that town¬ 
 ship, but at the same time in Indianapolis and in Marion County there 
 was enough idle labor and more to supply all that Pike Towmship re¬ 
 quired and two or three more. In my office I will safely say there are 
 on an average two to three every day in the year who come around in¬ 
 quiring for situations or opportunities for employment. The position 
 1 have occupied politically, advocating especially the labor interests, is 
 perhaps the reason for their applying at my office more than at others; 
 and also, I may say, at my house 1 am applied to by one or two persons 
 a day for employment, some of them being white and some colored. 
 
 Q. That is, it would average one a day all the year round ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 229 
 
 Q. Is it not the fact, Mr. Buchanan, that in the mean time there is ac¬ 
 tual suffering at many points in Indiana for the want of employment by 
 these people?—A. There can be no doubt of it. There has been ever since 
 1873, a year which deranged the manufacturing pursuits of the country, 
 a continuous suffering among a portion of our laboring population. 
 There is not enough labor in agricultural communities where they em¬ 
 ploy wage hands to take up the labor of all those seeking employment. 
 They cannot now earn enough during the time when they can be em¬ 
 ployed to carry them through thew inter in comfort. 
 
 Q. You were raised, Mr. Buchanan, on a farm as a young man, as well 
 as I was?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are familiar with farm labor ?—A. Yes, sir; I have been 
 all the time. 
 
 Q. Something has been said here about there being a demand more 
 than usual in harvest time for labor; do you know of any demand of 
 late years even in harvest time that could not have been supplied, or 
 that cannot now be supplied, by our own hands'?—A. No, sir; yet in 
 good seasons there are times when mechanics are in demand, but I do 
 not know of any time when all the labor has been demanded that could 
 be supplied by our own people. None of the harvests have gone to 
 waste from the want of labor to take care of them. They have been 
 rained on sometimes and damaged in that way, but have not been lost 
 from the want of labor to house them. 
 
 Q. If there should be a demand for extra labor in harvest-time, about 
 what leugtli of time would this demand last?—A. In some localities it 
 would last two or three weeks. It begins down in the southern portion 
 of the State, where the wheat ripens first, and then moves on towards 
 the northern portion of the State, where it is later m ripening. The 
 time between the two is probably six weeks. 
 
 Q. Is there as much demand for labor during the spring as during the 
 harvest time J ?—A. No, sir; and I will remark here that the suffering 
 has mostly been among the mechanics. Their employment, especially 
 that of house-carpenters and brick masons, is outdoor employment. 
 They are generally employed in building, and when it comes to the win¬ 
 ter season building operations are mostly suspended. This is true any¬ 
 where andatall times; but since 1873 and the financial panic which occur¬ 
 red at that time there has been little or no employment for mechanics 
 in Indianapolis at any season, because building operations have stopped, 
 so that skilled labor has been driven to seek employment on the farm. 
 Many times men of families have been compelled to take labor upon the 
 farms in the country, and I have known of much suffering among this 
 class of people. I have myself employed some of them when I did not 
 need them. 
 
 Q. Has there been any winter since 1873 in Indianapolis where it 
 has not been the daily practice and duty of the town trustees to feed, in 
 charity, able-bodied men and women who are willing to work to earn 
 their living if they could get the work to do?—A. That is true, sir. 
 
 Q. And thatistruenow ?—A. Yes, sir; but not so much so as formerly, 
 it has improved a little and mechanics have been scattered away from 
 there and gone w T est to seek employment. 
 
 Q. The winter, Mr. Buchanan, has been mild?—A. Yes, sir ; families 
 that have worn their old clothes, where in good times they would have 
 bought new ones, denied themselves the comfort which they would have 
 had if their labor could have been employed. 
 
 Q. l r ou have an office here, Mr. Buchanan, so I see, and you are prac¬ 
 ticing law; have you been home since this movement struck Indianapo- 
 
230 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES./ 
 
 lis?—A. 1 left Indianapolis on the evening of the 5th of January, and 
 have not been home since. 
 
 Q. Then you have not had much observation of these immigrants !— 
 A. No, sir; I know very little, except what I have heard. 
 
 Q. You know enough to know that they have been constant paupers 
 upon the charity of the public !—A. There is no question, I think, of 
 that. I understand there are 200 there now on charity, and I think that 
 that is not denied by any one. 
 
 Q. Have you been observant of the position of the press of the State 
 on this immigration question!—A. Y r es, sir, to some extent, but I don’t 
 know that I know the position of the whole press of the State. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any notice in any of the Republican press of the 
 State that these people were paupers and their presence was not desired 
 in Indiana!—A. I think I saw it in the Indianapolis News. 
 
 Q. Do you call it a Republican newspaper ?—A. Well, sir, it manages 
 to get in and support the Republican ticket every time. I think it has 
 always done that since the Greeley campaign. 
 
 Q. But it is opposed to the exodus full drift, is it not!—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. It calls itself independent, does it not, and has Republican tend¬ 
 encies !—A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other paper that has said the same thing!— 
 A. No, sir; I think not. I will state that outside of Greencastle, Put¬ 
 nam County, and Indianapolis, I know of nothing as a basis of quota¬ 
 tion on this subject. The Greencastle Banner was a leading advocate 
 of the movement, and all the other papers would copy from it aud com¬ 
 ment on its statements; that is the nature of the discussion that has 
 been going on in the State over this subject. The Democratic and Na¬ 
 tional papers were opposed to it, not because they did not believe, as I 
 did, that a man has got a right to go where he pleases, but because these 
 men were imported in the State from wrong motives. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think that you and they opposed it because these peo¬ 
 ple were better off in the South than they were in the State where they 
 could not find employment and support !—A. From what I have learned 
 I think their condition is better in North Carolina than it would be in 
 Indiana. 
 
 Q. You were always a Republican, that you know!—A. Yes, sir; I 
 helped to organize the Republican party and abolish slavery. 
 
 Q. And you were as much gratified at that result, the abolition of 
 slavery, as anybody in the State of Indiana!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you believe that the negro has an absolute right to stand upon 
 the same footing in their relation of leaving as anybody else !—A. Yes, 
 sir; I think it is God’s given right. 
 
 Q. Then it is not prejudice against the colored man that makes you 
 believe he should not go to Indiana!—A. Not in the world, sir; but 
 certain facts are facts, and I believe that the white people in North 
 Carolina have in a certain sense a better feeling toward the colored 
 people than have the white people in Indiana; the people divide there 
 in some sense according to their feelings. It is true that the idea of the 
 political rights of the negro has the same effect upon the average Dem¬ 
 ocrat that water would have upon a mad dog; to a certain extent in 
 Indiana the same feeling is shared by Republicians; these things are 
 played upon and operate to the detriment of the negro. I have friends 
 and relatives living in the South ; my father and mother came from the 
 South, and were of what they called certain abolitionists of the intensest 
 character : but I think the Southern feeling is better towards the negro 
 than the feeling in the North. As to these whites of the North, these 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 231 
 
 leading Republicans in Indianapolis, wlio are encouraging this move¬ 
 ment, I believe their motive is to gain votes for the Republican party 
 without regard to the social and industrial position of the voters; they 
 seek gaiu. That opinion is founded on the drift of comment and what I 
 know the facts to be. The Indianapolis Journal is the leading Repub¬ 
 lican organ of the State, and in my judgment is excessively economical 
 of the truth. 
 
 Q. Do you state that under oath, that it is very economical of the 
 truth?—A. Yes, sir; and the Indianapolis Sentinel is the leading Dem¬ 
 ocratic organ of the State, and I do not consider it as exceedingly re¬ 
 liable in its comments on party matters. It takes the other extreme ; 
 the one Republican, and the other Democratic. 
 
 Q. Do you think, from your old Republican sentiments and anteced¬ 
 ents and your connection with the study of the labor movement, that 
 you have taken an impartial view of this subject ?—A. I think I have. 
 Every man might not feel the same way upon these subjects like myself. 
 My position on the slavery question was not simply that it was for one 
 man against another, but I thought that the negro had the right to the 
 fruits of his own labor. I think, however, that another system of slav¬ 
 ery has supplanted the one that was abolished. 
 
 Q. What system of slavery do you think has taken the place of the 
 one that was abolished ?—A. Financial robbery ot the people through 
 the agency of monopolies and class legislation. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. I suppose, sir, from your examination, that you have had some con¬ 
 siderable study of the labor question. You have heard the examination 
 of Mr. Wooten and Mr. Fields, the two gentlemen from North Caro¬ 
 lina?—A. Yes, sir; a portion of it. 
 
 Q. The substance of their testimony as to what was paid farui labor¬ 
 ers in North Carolina was that they got $10 a month wages, house rent 
 free, a garden patch, and fire-wood free, and that the hiring extended 
 over the entire twelve months. I desire to ask you whether farm labor 
 is any better paid than that in Indiana ?—A. No, sir; it is not so well 
 paid. During certain seasons our farmers might pay better, but for 
 the regular season for a laboring man he is not thus well provided for. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You have spoken, Mr. Buchanan, of the economy of truth prac> 
 ticed by the Indianapolis Journal in its discussion of party questions' 
 do you think the Sentinel, which you say is the Democratic organ, prac 
 tices the same economy?—A. I think it is a full brother. 
 
 Q. You think the only papers, then, that have a monopoly of the truth 
 are the Greenback papers?—A. No, sir; I do not say that. 
 
 Q. Are they the only papers that tell the truth in Indiana ?—A. Well, 
 sir, they have not entered into this fight very much. 
 
 Q. But do they tell the truth, and are they the only papers that do 
 tell the truth in Indiana?—A. As a general proposition, with reference 
 to this movement, they have stated the whole truth without entering 
 the contest over the issue. 
 
 Q. Y r ou have not answered my question. I desire to know whether 
 you think the Greenback papers are the only papers in Indiana that tell 
 the truth on this subject ?—A. Of course, sir, there have been prevari¬ 
 cations in them as well as in other papers. 
 
 Q. Then you think they may not have told what is true about this 
 movement?—A. I have not expressed it that way, sir. 
 
232 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You regard that the Greenback papers are very lavish of the 
 truth ?—A. Iu relation to these facts, I think they are. 
 
 Q. Then the Indianapolis Sun was the only one of the leading papers 
 of the State that you could rely upon to get the truth about the exodus? 
 —A. I think you could rely on any of them where there was no parti¬ 
 san interest involved. 
 
 Q. But do you mean to back up the Indianapolis Sun as the only 
 paper giving the truth in the discussion of these questions ? —A. I will 
 back the Indianapolis Sun on its statement of facts as long as Iwascon- 
 nected with it. 
 
 Q. And that is the only one of the leading papers of the State that 
 you will back?—A. I will not back them to the same extent. 
 
 Q. Is there any improvement in the times in Indiana?—A. In one 
 sense; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us in what sense you have realized this improve¬ 
 ment?—A. The Lord has been very kind to Indiana and given it an 
 immense wheat crop, which has brought more money than we have had 
 for several years. That amount of money enables those people to get 
 some comforts from which they have heretofore been deprived. 
 
 Q. Do you thiuk that improvement is not permanent?—A. No, sir ; I 
 think not. It may last a year or so, but I could not predict that it is 
 permanent. 
 
 Q. Then you mean to say that the wheat crop is to be credited with 
 any improvement in the times in Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; we had an im¬ 
 mense wheat crop while there were short crops in Europe. This latter 
 fact created a demand for our wheat and hence the improvement. 
 
 Q. You thiuk that is the cause of the improvement?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In your judgement it is that and nothing else?—A. Yes, sir. 
 When you speak of a general revival of business, as the term is used in 
 discussing the present situation, I understand it to mean a revival iu 
 the financial condition of the people, in the employment of labor, which 
 enables all who desire it to have employment; and in that sense there 
 is not a general revival of business. 
 
 Q. You find more people now who can find employment than could do 
 so some time ago ?—A. No, sir ; not in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Do you think Indiana is worse off in that matter than the other 
 States ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you think there is no general revival of business anywhere?— 
 A. No, sir; in the sense I explained to you I do not. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that your party, the National Greenback Labor 
 party, do not take a very cheerful view of the condition of the country ? 
 —A. We take a full and fair view of the facts. I do not think a funeral 
 is a very cheerful thing at any time. 
 
 Senator Vance. That depends on who is being buried. [Laughter.] 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You have sworn, Mr. Buchanan, that there is, in your opinion, no 
 general revival of business; now, will you please explain what you mean 
 and what is the character of the improvement which you admit has 
 taken place ?—A. No, sir; I do not think that there has been a general 
 revival of business, but there has been an apparent revival. In trans¬ 
 porting the products of the year from the producers over to the con¬ 
 sumers it gives activity to business, an activity that appears to some 
 persons to be a revival of business, but which is not a revival of business 
 such as I have explained to you. 
 
 Q. Are there any more manufactories in operation now than there 
 were five years ago ?—A. I do not think all of them are in operation. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 2 )3 
 
 Q. Then you think the factories are quite as silent now, or more so,, 
 than they were five years ago?—A. Well, sir, I would fix it at 1873 and 
 
 1874. 
 
 Q. Well, speak of four years ago ?—A. Well, sir, Indianapolis did 
 not feel the suffering arising from the panic in 1874 and 1875. Its worst 
 time was in 1875 and 1876. It is not so bad there now as in 1875 and 
 1876, but that is due largely to the fact that the surplus labor of those 
 years has thinned out and goue off to other places. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, you seem to have made this an economic study, and I 
 am anxious to have your opinion on the record regarding this revival 
 of business?—A. I do not think there is any substantial revival on a 
 basis to be permanent. 
 
 Q. There are as many factories running now as there were five years 
 ago, are there not ?—A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, how many ? Give us the proportion for the two periods 
 as nearly as you can?—A. I think there are not more than one-third as- 
 many that are idle, but the basis of my calculations on that point may 
 be erroneous. 
 
 Q. Your view is that there is no more substantial employment to be 
 given to the people in the United States to-day than there was five 
 years ago?—A. There is no more. There is no more measured by the 
 compensation of the labor. 
 
 Q. That is, there is not the amount of wealth being produced in the 
 country now as there was before the panic, but there is some more than 
 there was in 1876 and 1877; what is the percentage of the increase?— 
 A. I cannot say, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it ten per cent.?—A. I think so, sir; but I do not think that 
 this increase is due to any party policy, but that it is God’s work. 
 
 Q. But you think there has been ten per cent, more employment 
 given to the laborers of the country?—A. Well, sir, the compensation 
 of labor is not as great as it was four years ago. Then the w ages that 
 are paid when parties are employed are very little higher than they 
 were when the number of laborers was greater. 
 
 Q. Is it not very much greater, Mr. Buchanan ; would you not say it 
 was 10 per cent, more ?—A. Or should say there are 10 per cent, more 
 individuals who can’t find employment. 
 
 Q. Would you say 20per cent.?—A. I don’t think 120 men have em¬ 
 ployment now where 100 were in 1876. 
 
 Q. Then you don’t think the employment amounts to 20 per cent?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And do you think that is the true state of the country generally ? 
 —A. I don’t know, sir; that is only guesswork at best. 
 
 Q. Well, 10 per cent, improvement makes a very great difference ?— 
 A. I don’t know, sir, as to that matter. 
 
 Q. W’hat is your opinion?—A. I cannot state, sir. 
 
 Q. But you do think there is 10 per cent. ?—A. I have my doubts as 
 to that. 
 
 Q. You have your doubts as to whether the general condition of the 
 country is improved 10 per cent.—A. Labor in the amount of its im¬ 
 provement I don’t think has increased 10 per cent., and in its compen¬ 
 sation I don’t think it is quite up to the mark, as I explained to you a 
 short while ago, of men, the w T ealth produced by it, and added to the 
 aggregate sum of the nation’s wealth. 
 
 Q. You think there is not 10 per cent, being added to the nation’s- 
 wealth ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think the prospect generally is gloomy ?—A. I think 
 
234 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 that we are all upon a basis in this country where we are likely to fall 
 into ruin in ten years. 
 
 Q. Then you take a dark view of the employment of labor in the 
 country, quite as dark as you do of the employment of colored people in 
 Indiana ?—A. I have not spoken of the employment of colored people in 
 Indiana especially. 
 
 Q. Well, then, you take the same gloomy view of the whole country ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; but I have not been speaking of the condition of the 
 country, as a general thing to apply everywhere. Now, iu some locali¬ 
 ties it is different, and the improvement appears to be substantial. 
 You have factories upon the Ohio and Wabash that are doing their full 
 amount of business. Y^ou may take the glass factory at New Albany, 
 where, I understand, they have orders two months ahead of their ca¬ 
 pacities. 
 
 Q. Y^ou stated awhile ago that 200 of these people were living upou 
 charity in Indianapolis.—A. Yes, sir; and parties were soliciting charity 
 for them. When 1 was there I was asked to give something to help them. 
 I heard Mr. W. R. Holladay, at the Ebbitt House, no longer ago than 
 last night speaking of it; he was criticising what was said by a Mr. 
 Bogley, a prominent negro in Indiana, and denied that there was need 
 and employment for these negroes. 
 
 Q. Then he is not iu favor of the exodus?—A. It was reported that 
 he was engineering it and shipping them to Indianapolis in mail cars. 
 I think I lizard Mr. Krouse there state something of the kiud. 
 
 Q. What is Mr. Krouse’s politics ?—A. He is a National. 
 
 Q. Then he takes the same gloomy view of the situation that you do ! 
 —A. I do not think that is necessarily a gloomy view; a truthful view 
 is not necessarily gloomy. 
 
 Q. Y'ou said awhile ago that you did not think a funeral was a very 
 cheerful thing, but rather a gloomy one. Would you think that a truth¬ 
 ful funeral would be gloomy ?—A. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. You stated that leading Republicans wanted these people out there 
 to vote. What do you know about that ?—A. I qualified that, and 
 stated that if I could go into it I would give my reasons for so speaking. 
 I know that Mr. Holloway and others, when spoken to upon the matter, 
 would make light of it on the idea that there was a demand for labor 
 aud for these people. 
 
 Q. Then he does not take the same gloomy view of the condition of 
 the country that you do ?—A. If you want to hear what he says and 
 my views upon it, I will tell you. v 
 
 Q. You have been very liberal in denouncing Republicans of Indiana 
 for encouraging, as you claim, this emigration for the alleged purpose 
 of using their votes ?—A. No, sir. I do not think that is a proper infer¬ 
 ence. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you say that the Republicans wanted them there to vote? 
 —A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you say that the leading Republicans of Indianapolis were 
 encouraging aud aiding the movement?—A. Y^es, sir: but they are not 
 all the Republicans in Indiana, and they do not run the party in that 
 State. They have tried to several times aud failed. And I will state 
 that I think if there was a vote of the Republican party of Indiana taken 
 upon the subject nine out of ten would vote against it. I do not think 
 they want these negroes there. 
 
 Q. Now, then, according to that statement, one-tenth of them do.— 
 A. Yes, sir. Those who expect to make office out of it would like to 
 have them there. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 235 
 
 Q. Can you name any of those, any of those leading Republicans of 
 Indianapolis who would like to have these negroes in Indiana to vote ? 
 —A. Well, sir, there is Mr. John C. New, Mr. Holloway, Judge Martin- 
 dale, and Mr. Wilduian. I have heard them all say there was room 
 enough for all the labor in the State that could come there. I say my¬ 
 self that iu one sense that is true; if they bring men there with money 
 to open up coal mines, forests, and farms, to build iron-works, and all 
 that, if they mean that kind of labor, I agree with them ; but if it is 
 labor without capital, seeking wages only, I say it is false. 
 
 Q. You say you agree with them if they mean it in the sense that 
 you have indicated? How do you know that was not the view they 
 took of it when they made the statement ?—A. It is impossible it could 
 have been. It is these poor class of people who are coming iu there 
 now, and it was with reference to them they were speaking, and not of 
 the other class in the slightest. These negroes who come from the 
 South and have to be supported by charity as soon as they get there, 
 you may well know they have not capital and credit to begin on. 
 
 Q. Then because these gentlemen do not agree with you as to the in¬ 
 dustrial wants of the State, you swear that their desire is to import 
 voters ?—A. I always assume, sir, that if a man is sane that he has got 
 a motive'for what he does. If he agrees to the fact that two huudred 
 of these people are there supported by charity to-day because they can¬ 
 not get employment, and he still tries to bring more of them, I cannot 
 see what motive can be in it except it be to use them as voters. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any of those gentlemen or any other Republicans 
 advocate their being brought to Indiana for that purpose?—A. Yes, 
 sir; the Indianapolis Journal did. 
 
 Q. Will you refer me to the date of the issue in which that was said ? 
 —A. I cannot say positively what the da'te was. 
 
 Q. Do you swear that any such article was ever put into that journal 
 or ever appeared in it iu any shape advocating this exodus to Indiana 
 as a means of importing voters into the State?—A. Notin that lan¬ 
 guage, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, what was the language ?—A. It said that there was room 
 for the people, able-bodied male laborers, in the State. 
 
 Q. WTiat reason have you to infer or to impugn their motives in the 
 way that you do?—A. I do not know that I have done that. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think it is a bad motive if it is to bring them in there 
 in order to carry the State in the interest of a political party ?—A. Not 
 if they bring them in there to vote according to the laws of the State. 
 I do not think a man should impose ou another one for any purpose in 
 the world, and I do not think it was right to bring these men there and 
 colonize them to carry elections. 
 
 Q. Then, do you think it is right or wrong under any circumstances 
 to bring them into the State in order to carry it in the interest of their 
 party ?—A. For that purpose, sir, I say it is wrong. 
 
 Q. You must recollect, sir, that you have made a severe charge ou 
 these gentlemen, and I want to know upon what ground you have made 
 it?—A. I say they tell these people to come, and that is the only charge 
 I have made against them. 
 
 Q. You say they know that there is no room there for them, and still 
 they tell them to come ?—A. I have given you the facts, sir. I con¬ 
 versed with Mr. Holloway about it, and he concedes that there are two 
 hundred women and children there being supported by charity; that 
 means that they are without employment or the means to support them¬ 
 selves. 
 
236 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Did be say they were brought there for voting purposes?—A. Of 
 course, sir, he would deny it, but I have my own opinion of it. Of 
 course I do not think that they bring women and children there to vote. 
 
 Q. Do you think one fifth of those people are voters ?—A. I do not 
 think that one-fifth of these people who came are voters. 
 
 Q. Do you think that if these people, these leading Republicans that 
 you spoke of, wanted voters brought into the State they would send and 
 get four or five women and childreu in order to get one voter ?—A. I 
 have not said that, sir. 
 
 Q. You think they would not, then ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think that is about the proportion among those who have 
 come ?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. Then, if you make the charge against them that you have made 
 in your direct examination, you charge them with a want of common 
 sense?—A. Well, sir, I think they would have been glad not to have 
 had any women and children come, but to have had them all voters. 
 
 Q. You stated that you judged all this to be the case from the ex¬ 
 pressions of these men themselves. Now, have they ever said one word 
 to you about these people coming there as voters?—A. They have 
 stated that there was work and room in the State for able-bodied male 
 laborers, but not any demand for the labor of women and children. 
 
 Q. Do you state your belief to be that the leading Republicans of In¬ 
 diana had nothing to do with sending these people out there?—A. I 
 think, perhaps, not a half dozen of them would approve of it or favor it 
 except in the sense of not disapproving of it. 
 
 Q. You think not a half dozen of them, then, ever had that motive 
 which you attribute to the Republican party as a mass; in other words, 
 you do not believe that this was a party movement ?—A. That would 
 depend on what you call a party movement. 
 
 Q. Didn’t yofi state awhile ago that these very men do not constitute the 
 Republican party of Indiana?—A. I stated so, and to what extent I 
 thought they were participating in this movement. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you say that these men were not the party ?—A. A party, 
 sir, is often chargeable with what its leaders do. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you mean to repudiate the idea that they were the Repub¬ 
 lican party of the State ?—A. I repudiated the suggestion of your ques¬ 
 tion. You said they constituted the Republican party of the State, and 
 I said they did not. 
 
 Q. You do not think these half-dozen men represent or constitute the 
 Republican party of Indiana ?—A. There are probably 250,000 voters in 
 that party, and these men certainly cannot be 250,000. 
 
 Q. Do you think that they represent it ?—A. I do not think they do. 
 
 Q. You think a half-dozen, though, want to see these men come there 
 to vote, aud the others do not ?—A. I think there are a half-dozen 
 there who do want to see them come there for that purpose. 
 
 Q. Will you give us the names of that half-dozen ?—A. Yes, sir. Mr. 
 Holloway, the postmaster; Mr. Martindale, the editor of the Journal; 
 Mr. Reynolds, one of the assistants to Mr. Holloway, Mr. New, the 
 chairman of the Republican State Central Committee; Mr. James A. 
 Reynolds, the ex-auditor of the State, and Mr. John T. Pressley, the 
 present sheriff of county. 
 
 Q. Is that all ?—A. They are the only ones, 1 think, who would take 
 any lively interest in the matter, but I do not say they have been so. 
 
 Q. You do not know that they have done so?—A. I do not know it. 
 
 Q. And you think it is quite right to attribute such a motive to them 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 237 
 
 if you do not know that they had it?—A. You can attribute a motive 
 to a man for what he does. 
 
 Q. That is, then, if he does not agree with you in politics or in the 
 view that he takes of the industrial necessities of the State and the 
 gloomy condition of the country generally, his motive is a wrong one ?— 
 A. Well, sir, I say that these negroes have come to Indiana without any 
 good cause. 
 
 Q. AVill you please be kind enough to tell me what you heard these 
 gentlemen say upon this subject?—A. I have not talked with Judge 
 Martindale particularly about it, but I have heard him express an opin¬ 
 ion in the presence of others that there was ample room in Iudiaua for 
 all the laborers, able-bodied, that could get there. 
 
 Q. Did be 'feay anything about politics in that connection ?—A. No, 
 sir; but he said that negroes were preferred as laborers, 
 
 Q. Well, they say the same thing about them in the South ?—A. Y"es, 
 sir; I heard it said here this morning. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything in that conversation with reference to this 
 exodus being a political movement?—A. Not a word, sir, as to partisan 
 politics, but we attribute to him the responsibility for the policy and 
 conduct of the Indianapolis Journal. 
 
 Q. Has he ever said anything of that kind ?—A. Well, sir, when the 
 Sentinel would denounce the exodus the Journal would copy what it 
 said, and add that there was room for ten thousand of these people in 
 the State, and that their coming would add to the Republican vote. 
 
 Q. Do you think or know that anything of that sort ever appeared in 
 the columns of the Journal ?—A. Yes, sir. I think it was about the 
 month of December. 
 
 Q. Do you say on your oath that it is in there ?—A. I think it is in 
 there. 
 
 Q. Are you quite sure that you did see any such expression as that 
 in there ?—A. I think it is there, sir. 
 
 Q. You doubt your recollection on it, do you not ?—A. I do not, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Buchanan, you live here, and will you show us that ex¬ 
 tract if you can find a file of the Journal ?—A. I do not know, sir. I 
 expected to leave to-night for Indiana. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, I will try and supply that myself. Now, as to Mr. New, 
 what did you hear him say about it?—A. I heard him sav that there 
 was room there. 
 
 Q. Tell us about what Mr. New said?—A. I think I have given all I 
 heard him express about the matter. 
 
 Q. He spoke simply about the demand for labor there?—A. Y^es, sir; 
 in connection with the fact of southern uegroes coming into the State. 
 
 Q. And that is all he said ?—A. Yes, sir; all on that point.- 
 
 Q. What did the other three gentlemen say?—A. They said similar 
 things. 
 
 Q. That is, that there was plenty of room in Indiana for good labor¬ 
 ers ?—A. Yes, sir. There would be a discussion, and something would 
 be said about the Democrats getting on their ears about the exodus, 
 and gentlemen would remark that there was plenty of room for the ne¬ 
 groes in Iudiana. 
 
 Q. Well, the Democrats have been on their ears about it, have they 
 not ?—A. I think they have, sir. I say that holding up the negro as a 
 voter to the average Democrat in the North is like it is in the South ; it 
 is like water to a person with the hydrophobia. 
 
 Q. You spoke awhile ago of the condition of the negro in the South ; 
 
238 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 did you refer to what you understood as bis condition in North Carolina? 
 —A. Yes, sir; in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You did not refer to his condition in Mississippi and Louisiana ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There are two states of feeling about that; the white people of 
 Mississippi deny the reports about the State, and the w T hite Republi¬ 
 cans of the North assert that they are true; what is your opinion about 
 it?—A. My first opinion is, that if it is really true as the white Repub¬ 
 licans in the North say that it is, and that the negroes are hunted with 
 rifles and shot-guns, and bulldozed, it is the best argument in the world 
 why the Republican party ought to be put out of power as quickly as 
 possible. 
 
 Q. And the Greenback party put in % —A. I say it is charged both 
 ways. I think a part of these reported outrages are true, but part of 
 them are not true; and I judge that a great deal of it is only said for 
 campaign purposes and use up North. These reports generally accumu¬ 
 late about that time, and I say if it is true, as these reports allege, it is 
 the strongest arraignment of the Republican party that I know of. 
 
 Q. You stated, I believe, that the white people of the South treated 
 them better than the white people of the North ?—A. That is my opin¬ 
 ion as to North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of the treatment they receive from the peo¬ 
 ple of Mississippi and Louisiana % —A. I do not know anything about 
 what it is. 
 
 Q. Have you an opinion ?—A. My opinion to-day is, and my facts 
 are slender, that if true it is infamous. 
 
 Q. Then you have no opinion as to what is the truth ?—A. I think 
 from the representations made public, that the colored people are better 
 off in North Carolina than in any other Southern State. 
 
 Q. What do you think of Mississippi and Louisiana, and as to whether 
 they are better treated there than negroes in the North ?—A. I don’t 
 know ; that is, I don't want you and this honorable committee to under¬ 
 stand that I intimate that colored people are oppressed at the North, for 
 they are not. 
 
 Q. Then you cannot answer my question ?—A. My general informa¬ 
 tion is, that they are not treated so well. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that information ?—A. In part, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you would qualify your former statement by saying they are 
 treated better in North Carolina ?—A. I don’t qualify, because I con¬ 
 fined it to North Carolina when I made it. 
 
 Q. You don’t want to say that is true of the South generally ?—A. I 
 don’t think I have said any such thing. 
 
 Q. Do you think the white people of Louisiana and Mississippi treat 
 the colored people in those States as well as the colored people are 
 treated living in the North?—A. My information is such that I think 
 they are not; there are two statements made of the case ; if one state¬ 
 ment is true their condition is horrible, if the other is true it is lovely. 
 
 Q. Please answer my question.—A. I state from my information. I 
 would think they w T ere not so well treated in those localities as in the 
 North Carolina regions, and I stated two views of the case that have 
 been presented. I said if the facts were true as presented by the Re¬ 
 publicans the situation of the colored man there was horrible, and if true 
 as the Democrats say, lovely. 
 
 Q. Which do you believe ?—A. I believe a part of both. 
 
 Q. Averaging it, which do you believe?—A. I believe that they are 
 
 ot so well treated. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 239 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the 14th article of the Constitution, sec¬ 
 tion 1st of the same article, which says : “All persons born or natural* 
 ized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citi¬ 
 zens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No 
 State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges 
 or immunities of citizens of the United States ; nor shall any State de¬ 
 prive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law • 
 nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the 
 laws. 77 Are you familiar with those provisions ?—A. Yes, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of a party and the leaders of a party, espe¬ 
 cially in Congress, who insisted that the colored people of the United 
 States who have been made citizens are denied their rights and deprived 
 of protection to life and liberty, and of those within the jurisdiction of 
 the United States who claim that they are not given equal protection 
 under the laws, what do you think of a party claiming that and who 
 as yet have taken no steps of any kind by resolution or act in either 
 branch of Congress for the past six years looking to the remedy of that 
 situation of affairs ?—A. I take it as simply infamous, and I say it is 
 one of the bitterest things for which I arraign the Republican party. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any move made by any Senator or member of the 
 Republican party looking to anything of the kind?—A. I think there 
 has been none since the virtue and brain of the Republican party left it 
 and died out of it. 
 
 Q. Who do you think composed the virtue and brain of the Republi¬ 
 can party ?—A. I think men like Charles Sumner, Wilson, Chase, 
 Thaddeus Stevens, Greeley, and others I might mention. 
 
 Q. Do you know the 15th amendment, which says that— 
 
 The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by 
 the E T nited States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of 
 servitude ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the 15th amendment of the Constitution. 
 
 Q. Would you suppose that honest and fair men, and they are all 
 honorable men who would insist that that provision of the Constitution 
 is habitually violated and who believed it, would sit by and see it done 
 when they have the power to remedy the evil by legislation here ?—A. 
 I think they cannot believe it ; if they did, such conduct would be infa¬ 
 mous ; there is uo other way that will suit the case. 
 
 Q. Does not the attitude of the Republican party upon the subject 
 prove to you that these things are not true and they don’t believe 
 them ?—A. It proves one of two things, either the fact does not exist 
 or they want to use it for some other purpose. 
 
 Q. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Thos. P. Mills who testified be¬ 
 fore this committee, or did you hear of it ?—A. I heard of it. 
 
 Q. Did you hear that he said he told his friends when they first came 
 to Indiana, these emissaries of the exodus, that they wanted 20,000 
 bucks, meaning men without women, to go to Indiana ?—A. I did not 
 hear of it. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of his saying that his sentiments upon this subject 
 were shared by leading and prominent Republicans of Indiana ?—A. 
 Well, sir, I will not say anything about that; the general matter which 
 I heard in relation to his testimony was that he was a Republican from 
 Indiana, and was giving the Republian party a heavy lift. 
 
 Bv Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Mills ?—A. I have a short acquaintance with 
 
'240 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 him. I simply know he is of the firm of Morris & Mills, and they have 
 a business house or office there. 
 
 Q. Mr. Yoorhees seems to have called you as an expert with rela¬ 
 tion to the conduct of political parties; assuming the fact to be true 
 that you are, I will ask you some questions. What political party con¬ 
 trols the State legislature and State offices in the South?—A. The 
 Democrats, I believe, without exception. They were controlled by Re- 
 publicans at one time. 
 
 Q. How long ago ?—A. I believe the last time the Republicans got a 
 usufruct , to use Mr. Tilden’s expression, out of the South, was when 
 they got the electoral votes of South Carolina, Florida, and Louisiana. 
 
 Q. All those States are now in the hands of the Democrats.—A. 
 Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. All the courts and offices generally are in the hands of the Demo¬ 
 crats ?—A. YVs, sir; nearly all. 
 
 Q. Don’t you understand that there are many strong Republican dis¬ 
 tricts in the South ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a good many strong Republican States if the colored people 
 were allowed to vote 1—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that there are no representatives in the Senate 
 representing the South, except tw T o ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think of a party which controls all these Southern 
 States in legislatures, executive offices, aud courts, and who by the use 
 of shotguns and tissue ballots aud bulldozing run negroes out of the 
 State, aud which permits men of the same party to meet them on their 
 arrival at the North with mobs and house burnings and threats of vio¬ 
 lence—what do you think of that party?—A. Assuming the facts to be 
 true, it is simply infamous. 
 
 Senator Windom. Well, now, since you have got us both infamous, I 
 will let you go. 
 
 By Senator VANCE: 
 
 Q. I will ask you if, since these States passed into the bauds of the 
 Democrats, it is not a fact that there have been less complaints of 
 wrongs and violence to the negroes in those States than at any other 
 time since the war ?—A. Yes, sir; I think there are less complaints of 
 misrule there. 
 
 Q. You think there are less complaints from the colored people?—A. 
 Y"es, sir. But about the time of elections they Hood the Northern 
 country with outrage literature of the most horrible kind, but I know 
 of no great outrages from that section since the Chisholm murder. 
 
 Q. You made use of the expression that it was infamous for a party 
 to let these things go on and not attempt to put a stop to them. Do 
 you think it is infamous for a man to cut the throat of the horse that 
 has been carrying him on its back ?—A. What do you mean ? 
 
 Q. I mean, if these outrages were corrected the Republican party 
 would have nothing to carry them through the election.—A. They as¬ 
 sert that this class of outrages occur, aud I say if they are in power and 
 do not correct them, it is simply infamous. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that they could not carry the elections without 
 them; and if that is true, it is wise and profitable not to correct them?— 
 A. No, sir; I think it rather deepens their infamy. 
 
 Q. You say they can correct these things, and they do not do it ?—A. 
 
 I think thev can. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Then you think the Republican party is infamous because it does 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 241 
 
 not protect the Democratic party of the South t —A. I say, if these 
 things are not true the Republicans of the North are lying about it; 
 and if they are true, they are not doing their duty in forgetting these 
 colored people. 
 
 Q. If any considerable part of it is true, don’t you think the Republi¬ 
 can party is infamous for not punishing the Democratic party of the 
 South!—A. I have had some pretty hard lights against the Democratic 
 party and the Republican party, too, and 1 expect more of them, and to 
 say something upon this very subject in making them. 
 
 Q. You think that the Republican party should punish the Demo¬ 
 cratic party to prevent them from bulldozing the colored men !—A. I 
 think it should punish whoever violates the rights of a citizen. 
 
 Q. Well, these things are done, are they not!—A. Yes, sir; and if 
 they are done for political reasons, I think it is more our duty to punish 
 them. 
 
 Q. You have heard of this bulldozing!—A. I have heard of Repub¬ 
 lican negroes who would bulldoze a Democratic negro pretty lively. 
 
 Q. Where did you hear of it!—A. I heard of it here on the stand. 
 
 The Chairman. I desire to put into the record a copy of two dis¬ 
 patches which appear in the Washington Post of thi3 morning, Feb¬ 
 ruary G : 
 
 TIRED OF NEGRO EMIGRATION. 
 
 Leavenworth, Kan., February 5. 
 
 The officers of the Kansas Free Land Association have^Jbeendirected by the direct¬ 
 ors of the association to devise a method of diverting immigration of colored people 
 in Kansas and turning the tide to other States in more need of laborers, and where 
 the people are better able to care for such as are in destitute circumstances. The relief 
 association is unable to maintain immigrants lately arrived. 
 
 negroes importing disease. 
 
 Leavenworth, Kan., February 5. 
 
 In Emporia and one or two other places a new disease, which the doctors do not 
 understand, is ‘prevalent among children. It is a rash, resembling measles, and is 
 • very contagious. It was brought here by the refugee negroes from the South. Many 
 cases have proved fatal. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROUSE. 
 
 C. W. Beouse sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside !—Answer. Near Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there !—A. Twenty-five years, I think. 
 
 Q. What positions have you occupied there! Were you pension 
 agent!—A. I was, four years from 1809—June, 18G9. 
 
 Q. I want to examine you upon the first point presented by Mr. Bu¬ 
 chanan—that is, about your knowledge or other men’s knowledge of 
 the unemployed labor of the State. Give your views to the committee 
 on that subject in your own way!—A. My knowledge of the labor 
 question in Indiana is derived from the leading newspapers and con¬ 
 versation with gentlemen from various parts of the State. My opinion 
 is, from the information that I have, that there is to day and has been for 
 
 1G EX 
 
242 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 four or five years past more laborers than could get employment in the 
 State of Indiana. I speak now from my own personal knowledge. My 
 residence is outside of the city in a farming community, and I know a 
 number who have been out there for years past seeking for work and 
 could not get it except, it was an occasional day’s labor. 
 
 Q. Is it not true, and has it not been true for several years past, that 
 there has been actual suffering in that section of the country among the 
 laboring people !—A. Yes, sir ; very great. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if there has not been a constant reliance upon pub¬ 
 lic and private charity for the subsistence of able-bodied men and women 
 who would have gladly worked if they had had a chance !—A. That is 
 true, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not conspicuously true !—A. It is a well-known fact. 
 
 Q. That such is the case !—A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. What business are you engaged in now"?—A. I have been engaged 
 for the last three or four years in the real estate business, purchasing 
 and selling land. 
 
 Q. Then your attention has been much directed to this point!—A. 
 Yes, sir; especially since 1873. 
 
 Q. Now have you always been a Republican!—A. YYs, sir ; up to the 
 time of the election of Mr. Hayes. Probably a year after that I left the 
 Republican party and affiliated with the National party. 
 
 Q. On the slavery question your sympathies are all with the colored 
 men ! You are as much their friend as anybody in the State !-—A. I 
 think so. 
 
 Q. You were in the military service!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know that the prejudice against these people is not on ac¬ 
 count of their color !—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There is no objection to their coming to Indiana if they could be 
 provided for!—A. No, sir; we would be glad to see them. 
 
 Q. State what you think of their coming there now under the circum¬ 
 stances that they do!—A. I think their condition in North Carolina 
 would have to be very bad indeed if coming to Indiana would better it. 
 
 Q. Have you followed the testimony given here as to the condition of 
 the colored men who have gone to Indiana !—A. Yes, sir ; I heard Mr. 
 Wootten’s testimony as to the state of affairs on his plantation. 
 
 Q. That is all the means of information that you have as to the con¬ 
 dition of colored men in North Carolina !—A. Yes, sir; except what I 
 read in the newspaper of a gentleman’s testimony here as to the compen¬ 
 sation and condition of the laborers there. 
 
 Q. And you think it must be very hard there if they would better it 
 by coming to Indiana!—A. Yes, sir; especially at this time. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that his condition in North Caro¬ 
 lina is so deplorable that it would be bettered by coming to Indiana !— 
 A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. Have you auy information as to their status that you are able to 
 state that !—A. No, sir ; nothing except newspaper reports. 
 
 Q. You stated that there was no demand for laborers in Indiana at 
 this time!—A. No, sir; beyond the supply that we have at home. 
 
 Q. Then there would be no hostility to emigrants coming there who 
 are self-supporting?—A. I think not. 
 
 Q. And emigrants of any kind, white or colored, negro or Irish, who 
 would come there and be self-supporting, would not be objected to !—A. 
 I think not, sir. 
 
 Q. There would be opposition to any kind of people being thrown on 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES- 243 
 
 public charity or private charity with no hope of their own speedy im¬ 
 provement?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been to Indiana recently?—A. Hot within the last thirty 
 days. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you think the introduction of seven or eight hundred persons 
 into your State would create widespread distress ?—A. I think not, be¬ 
 yond the seven or eight hundred who came. 
 
 Q. There would be considerable distress occasioned among them ?— 
 A. Some of them might get employment, but it would be by throwiug 
 others out, and there would not be enough of it to support all the 
 others. 
 
 Q. Do you think a laborer is worse off in Indiana than in other States 
 of the Union?—A. I do not know, sir, as to the other States in the 
 Union. 
 
 Q. You know of no reason why you should be particularly overstocked 
 in Indiana beyond any other State in the Union ?—A. Ho„sir. 
 
 Q. You do not know how many of these people have come there ?—A. 
 Ho, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any improvement in the times generally out there?—A. 
 There is some improvement in the manufacturing interests of the State, 
 and considerable in merchandising. 
 
 Q. Is there any in the agricultural interests of the State ?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; the crops last year were very tine indeed. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF T. E. HOOKER. 
 
 T. E. Hooker sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. In Greene County, Horth 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. Where is Greene County, with reference to Leuoir County ?—A. It 
 is adjoining Lenoir on the northeast. 
 
 Q. Where is your residence? How far from La Grange?—A. About 
 17 miles. 
 
 Q. Has there been any portion of this exodus from your county?—A. 
 Some few have gone from there; I think fifty or a hundred all told. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the causes that induced them to leave ?— 
 A. I do not know as I do. 
 
 Q. Did you talk to any of those who were about to leave ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What did they say?—A. Some said they thought they would bet¬ 
 ter their condition in Indiana, as wages are higher there. 
 
 Q. Did they say they had been told that?—A. Yes, sir; there were 
 negro agents peddling round there, and telling them very great things. 
 These men, Perry and Williams, were down there. 
 
 Q. Did they visit your county ?—A. I do not know, sir; but I reckon 
 thev did. 
 
 t • 
 
 Q. You do not know that they made any speeches there?—A. Ho, sir; 
 I do not. 
 
 Q. What were these negroes told they could get in Indiana?—A. 
 They were told that they could get $1.50 and $2 a day, and in the harvest¬ 
 ing season that they would get $0 a day. 
 
244 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. That is what they were told ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What about their transportation ?- A. Some of them went think¬ 
 ing they were going to go free. They went to Goldsborough and found it 
 was different, and they came back. Some of those who went off from 
 my place came back. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the colored people in your county ?—A. 
 About as good as it is anywhere. 
 
 Q. As good as any of the adjoining counties?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. W^hat wages do they get ?—A. A good negro hand can get from 
 $S to $10 a month. 
 
 Q. What does that include?—A. That includes furnishing him a 
 house, rent free, firewood free, and giving him a little patch to cultivate, 
 and furnishing him with rations. 
 
 Q. Is that the general rule ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is for A No. 1 hands?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what length of time does the hiring extend ?—A. A great many 
 times it is for twelve months, from January to January straight through. 
 After they get through picking cotton, then they go to raising manure 
 for the other crop. 
 
 ' Q. What can hands get for a day’s work by the day?—A. Fifty to 
 sixty cents; I have had to pay a little more than that. 
 
 Q. And do you feed them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What can hands make hiring in that way during the fall season 
 when cotton begins to open?—A. It depends on what kind of a hand it 
 is. Boys and girls can make as much as a man pickiug cotton. 
 
 Q. What do you pay ?—A. Fifty cents a hundred. 
 
 Q. The picking of cotton depends as much on skill as it does on 
 strength ?—A. More so. 
 
 Q. What can a man pick out in a day ?•—A. With good cotton he can 
 pick from 150 to 300 or 400 pounds. 
 
 Q. What is the average of a good picker ?—A. 175 to 200 pounds. 
 
 Q. That would be seventy-five cents to a dollar a day ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cotton begins to open about the 10th of September, does it not ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long does it continue?—A. Up to about Christmas. Of 
 course as winter comes on the cotton gets scarcer. 
 
 Q. What are the politics of your county ?—A. Republican. 
 
 Q. What is the population of white and colored Republicans ?—A. 
 There are about 100 white Republicans and 800 colored. 
 
 Q. W 7 hat is your usual Republican majority?—A. 150 to 200. 
 
 Q. Do you know or have you heard of any bulldozing of the colored 
 people in your section ?—A. No, sir ; they vote as free there as any¬ 
 where in America. They hold their meetings and have their votes. 
 There are people at the polls to look after that, and they are generally 
 colored. 
 
 Q. Then you know of no case in the shape of political persecution 
 that should have made these men leave their homes ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the state of feeling between the two classes there?—A. 
 It is kindly; there is no hostility between the two classes that I know 
 of. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JOHN O. KELLY. 
 
 John O. Kelly (colored)sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Yance : 
 
 Question. WTiere is your residence?—Answer. Raleigh, North Carolina. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 245 
 
 Q. What is your profession or business?—A. I am doing a livery 
 business—all that is done there. 
 
 Q. You run a livery stable ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you own any property ?—A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. Do you own any real estate?—A. Yes, sir; I own some outside 
 of the corporation of the town, and I have got a house and home. 
 
 Q. You were formerly a slave ?—A. Yes, sir: I used to belong to 
 General Cox. 
 
 Q. How much property at a round guess are you worth now ?—A. I 
 do not know, sir; but I would not to night take less than $5,000 for what 
 I have got. 
 
 Q. Have you made all that as a free man ?—A. Yes, sir; I had 
 nothing at the time of the surrender. 
 
 Q. There is a large colored population in Wake County, is there not ? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; Wake has a large population that is colored. 
 
 Q. What are the politics of the county ?—A. Wake County goes Re¬ 
 publican. It has failed one year of going Republican. It failed to 
 supply the members of the general assembly. With the exception of 
 that it goes Republican. 
 
 Q. By what majority?—A. Well, it is pretty close. Along at first it 
 was about 250, but now they are beginning to hew it down. 
 
 Q. Which are the largest in number in the county, the whites or the 
 blacks?—A. You mean the voting population? 
 
 Q. Yes.—A. The colored people. 
 
 Q. The colored people are the strongest ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now I want the truth all to come out, and I want you to tell us 
 what you can say of the condition of the colored people in Wake 
 County, as to their right to vote and the enjoyment of their liberties 
 generally ?—A. Their right to vote and their liberty in Wake County 
 is certainly good. The colored people in Wake County have their lib¬ 
 erty, and their privileges are good. They have free access at the ballot- 
 box in Wake as much as in any county in North Carolina. We have 
 as little trouble there as anywhere. We have very few difficulties 
 about Raleigh. 
 
 Q. Do they vote just as they please?—A. Yes, sir; they do. I do 
 not think we have half a dozen colored voters in Wake County but 
 what votes the Republican ticket. One or two men have voted the 
 Democratic ticket, but the others scorn them and done so much to them 
 that I think they are about worn out at it. 
 
 Q. That was for voting the Democratic ticket?—A. Yes, sir: that 
 is so. 
 
 Q. What is the state of feeling there between the white and colored 
 people?—A. The state of feeling betwixt the white and colored people 
 in Wake is very good. Unless you count some little peculiar feelings 
 between some people which has had trouble, that feeling is now good. 
 There was a little hard feeling after the war, but that was because they 
 once owned us and ruled us and then they could not, but all that has 
 worn out. 
 
 Q. Does a colored man have the same right to make his living and 
 fortune as a white man ?—A. Yes, sir, so far as be is able to do so. The 
 white people have got the advantage, because they had land at the sur¬ 
 render and the colored folks didn’t. Some of them thought they were 
 going to have land given to them, but a good many have bought land 
 there in Wake Countv. It is like some of vour own race, who never 
 had anything and never will have it. It is like a man who went off at 
 sixteen and married and have children, and never had twenty-five cents 
 
246 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to his name. That is the way with both races, and a great many of 
 them never have anything. It will be a long time before they will have 
 anything. It is not every man that can build up. Now, amongst my 
 people there are a great many who have to work for wages, and a great 
 many rent land to make a crop. So far as malice is concerned, there is 
 very little betwixt the white and colored in Wake County. 
 
 Q. If a man wanted to employ a laborer down there, would he refuse 
 to employ a man because he was black ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do your people find any discrimination against them on that 
 account?—A. No, sir; but you have made a pretty good scope there, 
 and you must give me time to digress and come back. You know there 
 are both kinds there, but the colored men won’t be paid the same wages. 
 They work at the same bench and all that, but they won’t get as much 
 for it. The people of the South and of Wake County prefer colored 
 labor, and the reason they do is that they have been pretty apt always 
 at ordering it about, and they can still do that with a colored man bet¬ 
 ter than with a white man. They can use the colored labor better than 
 they can the white, and I consider myself it is the best labor in the 
 circle of the sun. They were turned loose by that great party that gave 
 us this liberty, but they did not make provision for them. The colored 
 men have been two centuries without education, and are like many 
 whites in our town now aud before the war. They come to town, for 
 instance, with three dozen eggs, and you say what you will give them, 
 but they say, U I cannot take this money until I go and see Mr. Adams,” 
 or somebody else, because they do not know the money, and have to 
 have somebody to tell them about it, and it used to keep the poor whites 
 and the blacks back. That was the cause that they could control them. 
 As to this great movement of the exodus, that we don’t know anything 
 about except by a few sketches in the papers. I do not know anything 
 of that kind. As to brick-masons and carpenters getting the same wages 
 though, they can’t do it, because the white folks won’t give it. 
 
 Q. About what price is paid for farm laboiers in Wake County •—A. 
 Well, sir, there is a big farm right in front of me, 1 suppose the biggest 
 in the vicinity of Raleigh. They pay their best hands $10, and ©n down 
 to $8, and $7, and $6. They have been offering as low as $G, and a 
 great many say $6 is all they will give ; but $6 to $10 is the average 
 price. 
 
 • Q. That is according to the quality of the hand ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What does he get besides his pay ?—A. Where he is hired he gets 
 his pay, and they give him 3i pounds of meat and a peck of meal a week. 
 Some give 5 pounds, but more give 3J pounds aud a peck of meal. A 
 good many do not board them, but most give them rations. 
 
 Q. Do they give them a house ?—A. O, yes, they give them a house. 
 
 Q. Aud firewood free ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Pasture for a cow if they have got one ?—A. I do not know, sir, 
 about that. There are not many who are going to live out if they' have 
 got a cow and such things as that. They will do business for themselves. 
 
 Q. There is no exodus from your county ?—A. No, sir; I do not be¬ 
 lieve there is one that has left there. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if the feeling of kindness between the two classes has 
 not been increasing of late years—if legislation has not done more to 
 help the colored people along since it became Democratic than before ?— 
 A. Of course, on account of prejudice being worn down a great deal, 
 they is in a better condition. I say it all came about when you was in 
 charge. I never voted for you because you are a Democrat, and I said, 
 if you carried out what you preached around in the campaign I certainly 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 247 
 
 would leave North Carolina. I thought you were going to make some laws 
 to keep men from leaving and moving about; but after you got elected 
 and got your seat you did more for the colored people than any other gov¬ 
 ernor we have had since we have been free men. Our other Republican 
 governors did not have a backbone, but give out; but Governor Yance 
 called us snake-killers, and I thought he was going to be a snake-killer 
 and go for us. Then after him comes Governor Jarvis, and I would 
 take his advice to the colored people as quick as any man’s except Gov¬ 
 ernor Vance. Still when Governor Yance was running I feared him, 
 and thought I’d have to move. I had a house and home, and me and 
 my partner were doing all of the livery business, and we was colored 
 men. We is doing all the business in that town ; and as for respect I 
 do not want any more than is shown me in Wake County from every 
 man who knows John O. Kelly. 
 
 Q. Is not every other colored man given the same respect that you 
 are who is sober and industrious ?—A. Governor, you put a good deal 
 in there. Where they see he has taken a start in an early day and got 
 a foothold they will help him. I have seen the time since the panic 
 when I could take two of my sons and go to the bank and borrow $500 as 
 quick as any man ; and no man who is true to his word and honest but can 
 do it. But there is one deficiency among my people; there are too many 
 men who want to make a crop without paying a man for his labor. 
 When I speak of these men I have to digress to get at all of these points. 
 In my days if there was a school-book found in the house of a darkey 
 he got nine and thirty lashes for it. Where a man has got a wife and 
 child and gets $G a month he cannot live and be honest. I hire seven 
 men, and I pay one of them $7, another $G, and the others $5.50 a week, 
 and I see that they have to work. I see so many of our people going 
 to the jails and penitentiary that I have been very much disturbed. 
 They have got so that they put a man in jail if he steals a big potatoe. 
 Gentlemen, do get to work, and get this thing done ; you have got the 
 sense to do it, and you fix it good. Get together when these things 
 occur, and say to a fellow, Sam, you stole a piece of meat from me, and 
 let us see if we cannot fix it up without the law and the jail; ’cause 
 when he gets in the solicitor’s hands he has to get $4 costs, and then 
 you go sure to the penitentiary. If you give a man good wages he will 
 look to your interest, but for these $5 and $6 a month a man cannot get 
 a good living to save his life and live an houest one. 
 
 Q. How is it about the education of the colored people down there?— 
 A. Well, governor, in Wake County I do not complain about it. All 
 my politics, gentlemen, is that if a man has got 25 cents I will take him 
 up-town on my omnibus; but in regard to Wake County, the schools are 
 good, still there is some little complaining among folks who do not know 
 what they want. The complaining was about the last legislature taking 
 the school committee out of the hands of the people, and giving- the 
 magistrates the power to appoint them. That is one of the greatest 
 complaints among the people. You wanted when you were governor 
 to issue money for the graded schools, and worked hard to do it, and 
 Governor Jarvis is trying to do it still. Everything is getting along 
 pretty well, and there is no complaint except where the county has got 
 no money, and the schools do not keep up long enough. Any man will 
 complain when he has got nothing, and must eat even if he has to steal 
 it. 
 
 Q. The chance of a colored child being educated is as good as that of 
 the whites ?—A. Yes sir ; I send four of mine to school all the time. 
 
 Q. There is a normal school there for the purpose of educating teach- 
 
248 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 ers for your race?—A. Yes, sir ; and they have got a department of that 
 house, too, at the Methodist church. 
 
 Q. Who is the county treasurer?—A. John B. Neathery. 
 
 Q. What are his politics?—A. Republican. 
 
 Q. I want to read you an extract from his report (reading) : 
 
 la closing this statement of the county finances for the past fiscal year, which I have 
 labored to make full and explicit in every respect, if you will permit me, gentlemen,’ 
 I will mention a few facts, not having a necessary connection therewith, but which 
 bear high testimony to the peaceable and law-abiding character of the people of Wake 
 County, and which should be gratifying to every good citizen. 
 
 With a population of near 50,000, including the capital of the State, we have never 
 had a mob, riot, or serious disturbance of the peace during the past fifteen years. Al¬ 
 though the candidates of the two political parties have in every campaign conducted 
 a joint canvass, and party feeling has at times run high, yet we have not had a single 
 murder, homicide, or death occurring from any fight, or political disturbance, or race 
 difficulty in twenty years. During the past three years we have had in the county 
 only three deaths from violence. In one of these a white man slew a white man; 
 in the second a colored man slew a colored man ; and the third, was a case where a 
 fugitive from justice was slain by an officer while attempting to evade arrest. It 
 must be borne in mind also that the State penitentiary is located in our county, and 
 all the convicts from the entire State, whose terms of service expire, are turned loose in 
 our midst, thus swelling our criminal population. 
 
 To show the good feeling existing between the two races in the county, it is only 
 necessary to refer to one or two facts : At an election in Raleigh Township last spring, 
 on the question of levying an additional tax on property for the support of graded 
 schools, for each race, there were but thirty votes cast against the proposition, though 
 the bulk of the property is owned by our white population, and it was well known 
 that the colored children were entitled, under the law, to share equally with the 
 whites in the benefits of the tax raised; and a good jmrtion of the thirty votes against 
 the tax were cast by colored voters, under a misapprehension. 
 
 On the other hand, to show the kind feeling of our colored population towards the 
 whites, it is only necessary to state the fact that we have three colored fire compa¬ 
 nies in this city, who are always among the very first to respond to the alarm of fire, 
 and none strive harder or incur greater risks of life and limb to save the property of 
 their white fellow-citizens from destruction, though a comparatively small number of 
 these colored firemen own any real property themselves. * * * I also deem it a 
 
 matter of great gratification that we have at this date more and better public school- 
 houses for each race; more and better teachers ; a larger number of children in the 
 schools; and a greater interest manifested in the cause of general education than at 
 any previous time in the history of the county. 
 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 JOHN B. NEATHERY, 
 
 Treasurer. 
 
 Q. Is that a pretty truthful statement of affairs there ?—A. It is as 
 good as can be gotten up anywhere as to those firemen. The white 
 folks have got an engine there, and a pair of horses that cost five hun¬ 
 dred dollars. But you let the fire bell ring, and the colored people are 
 the first to get there, and if they are going to put the fire out at all they 
 will done have put it out before the others get there. The other night 
 Haygood’s stable caught on fire, and the colored folks put it out, and 
 the whites come and gave their excuse that somebody stole their little 
 truck or wood wagon ; but the truth is they haven’t got the grit, no 
 how. 
 
 Q. So far as there is any political persecution or bulldozing, you 
 know of no reason why they should pick up and leave there ?—A. There 
 is none in our county.' I don’t know what it is below, but I know 
 sometimes when they don’t register somebody will try to keep a man 
 from voting. There are some little differences of that kind, but there is 
 no bulldozing and saying a man shall not vote. I don’t see anything of 
 that kind down there. The trouble is this back law and returning 
 board, where if they get elected they count you out; it seems to me 
 they have all learned schemes down there by it. 
 
 1/ 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 249 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. What do you mean by the returning board ?—A. I mean where a 
 man gets elected and is counted out. I think Mr. Bledsoe was elected 
 to the legislature the last time. Before they got done voting I think 
 they counted him out. 
 
 Q. That, was done by the Democrats?—A. Yes, sir ; that was, but I 
 don’t know where these returning boards first came from. 
 
 Q. When was the first time you heard of them ?—A. The first I heard 
 of them was when Mr. Hayes was elected up here. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of them in North Carolina ?—A. I don’t know that 
 they call them returning boards, but they have got the same kind of 
 schemes for counting a man out. I think they counted Mr. O’Hara 
 out. It don’t make any difference what you call it, but I call them re¬ 
 turning boards since you all got the name up. 
 
 Q. Your legislature is Democratic ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think this last 
 time they had two majority. I know they ail had to stay at the rack 
 very closely. 
 
 Q. Well, these men who were counted out were Republicans,were they 
 not?—A. I do not know what Mr. Bledso was, as he would not tell 
 which way he was going. I think he would have been a Republican if 
 he had got counted in. I think he ought to have been put in, as he was 
 in such a good move for us, as he wanted to bring a railroad from the 
 western part of the State right to Raleigh. 
 
 Q. W r as there some complaint about these men being counted out ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did that come from Democrats or Republicans?—A. I cannot 
 tell which it came from. I think both sides have been counted, sir. I 
 know in the last general asssembly they had some white men elected, 
 'and the colored men came and contested their seats, but they didn’t 
 turn the white men out but paid both, and I think the colored men got 
 the better of it, for they staid there and done nothing. They got their 
 pay and had no work to do. 
 
 Q. You spoke of magistrates, and that there was some complaint 
 about the change concerning them?—A. I cannot explain that, but that 
 is one of the complaints ; the biggest we have, I believe. 
 
 Q. Who do those complaints come from with reference to the magis¬ 
 trates ?—A. I think the colored people. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any complaints as to the way they were 
 treated in the courts?—A. Yes, sir ; I don’t know of these things, but I 
 have heard of it. They said in some counties they wouldn’t allow 
 colored men in the jury box. Tliere is discrimination made there. 
 
 • Where they have them, out of every jury they run in from seven white 
 men up to ten white men and two colored men. I don 7 t think, though, 
 in our county that is due to the legislature, but I think it is due to our 
 sheriff, who has not got the back bone to stand up. 
 
 Q. He is a Republican?—A. Yes, sir 5 and elected by Republicans. 
 
 Q. How is it needed—that back bone ?—A. I tell you he is a good 
 man, but the bond which he had to give, the Democrats had to go on it, 
 and that brought him under subordination to them. You see if you 
 have got me haltered, I cannot get far away from you ; and he cannot 
 pick out the jurors as freely as he might do. 
 
 Q. He thinks that the Democrats don’t want a majority of colored 
 jurors ?—A. Yes, sir; I think so ; him and the Democrats, too. 
 
 Q. Are those all the complaints you have heard ?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 think that is all. 
 
 Q. Do they punish whites the same as they do the colored people ?— 
 
250 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I believe they do when they get them into the court, but 
 sometimes they run a little cloak around it; if a white man does some¬ 
 thing, aud goes off* to the mayor’s office and confesses, he can pay a fine, 
 and it is not as much as sent into a court. If a colored man does any¬ 
 thing he is sent to the solicitor, and is pretty bound to go to the peni¬ 
 tentiary. 
 
 Q. State the general feeling of the colored people, and why it is they 
 don’t have a fair show in the courts.—A. I can say that I have heard 
 complaints of the jurors being most all of them whites. I do not have 
 much to do with the courts. I stay as far away from them as I can. 
 I think there are not a great many cases where the colored people are 
 treated wrong. They are brought and punished, and of course they 
 don’t like it. 
 
 Q. I believe you stated that a white man would get more for the same 
 work than a colored man.—A. Certainly; there is not a man hardly in 
 Wake County if he wanted a job done but will pay a white man some 
 fifty cents more in the day than a colored man. 
 
 Q. Is it because the latter is a colored man t —A. ]So, sir; but it is 
 nature ; they think the colored man can live on this. 
 
 Q. Does that sort of discrimination extend to other kinds of labor ! I 
 mean to common labor, and not to skilled labor.—A. I cannot say it 
 does; there are a very few white men who hire out as laborers. 
 
 Q. You spoke of people getting only five or six dollars a month ; is 
 that quite common ?—A. Well, sir, in a great many places they don’t 
 like to pay more if they can get them for that; but that is for common 
 boy hands and women ; eight and ten dollars is the average for men. 
 
 Q. What are the rations ?—A. Generally, a few pounds of meat and a 
 peck of meal and a pint of molasses. 
 
 Q. Is that as much as the laboring man has to live on for a week %— 
 A. It is not as much as I had when I was a slave, for my people fed me 
 as they did themselves. 
 
 Q. But you think these petty crimes of larceny are committed largely 
 on account of this inadequate provision ?—A. Certainly 1 do, but negro 
 men is better in some respects in that kind of doing than a white man ; 
 if he goes to steal he don’t try to steal all you have got and the white 
 man does. 
 
 Q. When they steal in this way to preveut starvation they take them 
 and send them to the penitentiary ?—A. Some get off and some go to 
 the penitentiary. 
 
 Q. What is their treatment ?—A. They are all hired out, except they 
 are put in there for lifetime or for murder. 
 
 Q. Is there any considerable amount of that hiring out done ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; they are working on the railroads. All the railroading work 
 up there aud on into the mountains is being done by them. Some of 
 the white people who are put in there take advantage of it in getting a 
 trade. 1 don’t understand all the workings of it, for I try to keep out 
 of the penitentiary myself. 
 
 Q. What length of time do you think they generally send people for 
 stealing those little things we have mentioned ?—A. Until this last act, 
 a man had to stay two years, but now it is twelve months. 
 
 Q. Is that your understanding of the condition of the colored race, 
 that in many cases they are compelled from receiving short wages to 
 steal, and then they are convicted and sent to the penitentiary and hired 
 out ?—A. I say you can take it anywhere in the world, where a man 
 with one or two in family besides himself gets only five or six dollars a 
 month, he can’t live on it. Until this great blessing came along, which 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 251 
 
 I appreciate as much as any man, it was different, and they can’t all 
 keep np to it, although I thiuk as much of principle and character as 
 any other man that ever lived, I don’t care where he came from. 
 
 By Senator Voorhees : 
 
 Q. You are in the livery-stable business ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you pay your employes ?—A. I pay my omnibus drivers 
 seven dollars a week, and the one who drives two horses five dollars 
 a week ; and pay it to them every Saturday morning. 
 
 Q. Are they all colored men ?—A. All of them are out of the seven¬ 
 teen, except two white men—one for each omnibus. 
 
 Q. They are picked men, though, are they not—men who understand 
 their business ?—A. Yes, sir ; of course, they must be. 
 
 Q. These are high wages, are they not ?—A. Not for livery work. 
 
 Q. You pay more than anybody else, do you not?—A. More than 
 most of people ; yes, sir, I reckon I do, because my work is done at all 
 hours. I work three every night, and my partner four, and any time 
 you come to my office door, you can get a carriage, unless you beat me 
 once, and then you can’t get one. 
 
 Q. You are paying higher wages, though, than are paid to most la¬ 
 borers ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, take a man who hires by the month, and who boards him¬ 
 self; how much ought he to get?—A. I do not know about that. 
 
 Q. If they board him, how much do they pay ?—A. If he is boarded, 
 they give him about ten dollars. 
 
 Q. Is that about the average ?—A. That is about the average wages, 
 where they board them, and get good hands. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of any representations made to your people about 
 the wages they would get out there in Indiana?—A. No, sir; I do not 
 know anything of that matter in the world. I saw, say two or three 
 train loads going to Georgia, to the turpentine works. I asked them 
 what they were going for, and they said they could get better wages. 
 
 Q. You would not think they could better themselves by going from 
 Wake County to Indiana, where the colored man never was seen in a 
 jury-box?—A. No, sir; 1 think they would be getting worse. I think 
 any man can get aloug better with the people that he knows. 
 
 Senator Vance. Who is solicitor, who prosecutes in your county ?— 
 A. This Mr. Collins, a colored man ; but he is assisted in Wake County 
 with Mr. Harris. He makes the bills, and Mr. Harris does the pleading. 
 He is a white man and a Republican. 
 
 Senator Windom. From what you know of the emigration from your 
 State, are not as many going to Georgia as Indiana ?—A. I do not know, 
 sir. I think, from what I saw on the trains going through Charlotte, 
 and who said they were going to the turpentine country—I think there 
 were about one hundred and fifteen, all told. 
 
 Senator Vance. You do not understand that they were going there 
 to stay ?—A. No, sir ; they worked there last year and were going back 
 again. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W. W. ARRINGTON. 
 
 W. W. Arrington called, sworn, and examined. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN; 
 
 Question. Where do you live ?—Answer. In Nash County, North Car¬ 
 olina. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Has there been any movement of colored people from your county 
 
252 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 to Indiana 1 ?—A. I think not, in my neighborhood; but I understand 
 that some went from down about Bocky Mount. There have been none 
 left from our neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Did you speak to any who went ?—A. No, sir. I spoke to some 
 who thought of going from North Nashville. 
 
 Q. Did they give you any reason for wanting to go ?—A. They said 
 they could get big wages, from a dollar and a half a day to five dollars 
 a day ; that during harvest-time they could get five dollars a day. 
 
 Q. Did they say who told them that ?—A. A man named Perry, I be¬ 
 lieve. 
 
 Q. Did you see Perry yourself?—A. No, sir; I never saw him. 
 
 Q. Did he make any speeches in your county ?—A. Not that I know 
 of. But I was at Bocky Mount one day and there was a fellow over on 
 the other side, in Edgecombe, making of a speech, and I understood it 
 was Perry. 
 
 Q. Gan you give us a statement of the condition of the colored people 
 in your section?—A. In the northern part of the county, where I live, 
 they are in a good condition, and many own land. It is rather thickly 
 settled, and mostly with colored people. Only once in a while you will 
 come across a white man; but the colored people own the country 
 through there. 
 
 Q. How much do they own ?—A. There are four or five thousand 
 acres right in my own couuty owned by them. 
 
 Q. How much is owned by them in Nash County ?—A. I reckon twenty 
 thousand acres ; all of that. 
 
 Q. How is it distributed? How much was to a man ?—A. I think 
 the smallest farm I know is seventy acres, and from that up to a thou¬ 
 sand. 
 
 Q. Does any colored man there own a thousand acres ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 one. 
 
 Q. Who is it ?—A. That is myself. 
 
 Q. Were you formerly a slave?—A. YYs, sir. I belonged to A. H. 
 Arrington. 
 
 Q. Baldi ?—A. Yes, sir; and a perfect gentleman, if there ever was 
 one. 
 
 Q. Have you made your property since the war ?—A. Yes, sir; but he 
 gave me a chance after the surrender. I took charge of his business. 
 He employed me to run it for him, and gave me six hundred dollars a 
 year; and I laid it out in land, right at the start, and kept adding to it. 
 
 Q. Do you farm yourself?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell us about the wages you pay.—A. Well, sir, I pay my men ac¬ 
 cording to the grade of them. If he is a good man, who can repair 
 gates, make hoe-handles aud axe-helves, and mend up wagons, I pay 
 him ten dollars, give him a patch for his wife, and a house to live in. 
 Some others that are not quite so good I pay eight dollars. 
 
 Q. What do you pay women?—A. The women get five dollars and 
 board. Them we don’t give any allowance. 
 
 Q. The men you give just as much as they want to eat ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; but I only allowance one. I buy a year two hundred pounds of 
 meat, and put it there, and allowance him five pounds a week ; and at 
 the end of the time he knows when it ought to be out. 
 
 Q. Is that the general rule of pay down there ?—A. Yes, sir; it is a 
 general rule around there with the farmers. Good men get ten dollars 
 very easily. 
 
 Q. How far do you live from Edgecombe?—A. Twelve miles. 
 
 Q. Do you know much about the rule down there?—A. No, sir; but 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 253 
 
 it is about the same, I believe. That down there, where they take out 
 marl, is a little better. 
 
 Q. Do you state that ten dollars a month, with rations, is the average 
 price for good hands ?—xY Yes, sir; and on down to eight dollars. I 
 don’t think any man gets less than eight dollars in our neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Doesn’t that depend on the price of cotton ?—A. We have a stand¬ 
 ing price, and don’t change it. I think where they give more they don’t 
 give a patch. But if a man has a wife, she can take a patch and make 
 a bale. There is no charges made there for the houses or fire-wood. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything why, by reason of political proscription 
 or legal discrimination, the colored man can’t do as well in North Caro¬ 
 lina as a white man, both of them being without land ?—A. Yes, sir • 
 there is a little difference in the hiring of them. When they hire a white 
 man they take him into the house and feed him a little better. But there 
 is no difference generally, because there are not many white men who 
 hire out. I know one named Dick Thorpe, who does not get but nine 
 dollars a month. 
 
 Q. Is there any interference down there with the right of the colored 
 people to vote ?—A. No, sir; I have been a poll-holder for a long time, 
 in my township, and both sides vote as free as they please, and we 
 have no disturbance and no unfair means used. 
 
 Q. Nash is a Democratic county, by a very small majority, is it not? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; but we beat you last time, Governor, by taking your own 
 means, and running an independent Democrat. But there is about 
 three hundred majority of whites in the county. 
 
 Q. Have you many colored men in your section who are skilled me¬ 
 chanics, brick masons, bouse carpenters, blacksmiths, and so on ?—- 
 A. I don’t think many of them are brick masons. There may be at 
 Nashville; but there are carpenters up there. But I don’t know 
 what the saw-mill man is paying them. He takes a contract to do the 
 buildiug, and pays them by the month. 
 
 Q. What chances have you to teach and learn your children ?—A. 
 We have good chances, now. I am one of the school trustees in my 
 township. And we have a treasurer, and the money is paid out by the 
 township. 
 
 Q. How long do your schools run ?—A. About four months. 
 
 Q. Is there a good attendance of the children ?—A. Yes, sir ; I be¬ 
 lieve ours has an attendance of seventy*nine. 
 
 Q. That is your township ?—A. Yes, sir ; the one I am tru tee for. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. How far is your plantation from Goldsboro’?—A. It is forty miles 
 from our depot to Goldsboro’. 
 
 Q. There is no exodus from your county ?—A. No, sir; I have heard 
 of none. Those fellows who were getting it up did’nt beat down our 
 way. We are working people up there, and don’t listen to such things. 
 
 Q. You are against it yourself?—A. Yes, sir; I am. I was up there 
 at the church, and one fellow was up there who had a lot of his circu¬ 
 lars, but when I came along towards him he wheeled about and left. 
 
 Q. How many hands do you employ ?—A. I employ four ; but I have 
 a right smart people settled about on my plantation. 
 
 Q. You say you have heard no complaint by these people about their 
 condition in North Carolina?—A, Yes, sir; they have complained 
 about this tenant lieu law, and the taking away the election of magis¬ 
 trates and their appointment by the legislature. 
 
 Q. There are cases of some complaint ?—A. Yes, sir ; they think they 
 
254 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 don’t get justice in that way; and it is taking away the rights of the 
 people. And the legislature has been appointing men for magistrates 
 who could not be elected by the people. 
 
 Q. Have you heard anything of injustice done them in the courts! 
 —A. Yes, sir; I have. They say that if a man commits larceny, if he 
 is blooded stock it is covered up; but a poor white man, or colored 
 man, they lay him out. I know there was a gentleman there from 
 Halifax who stole something, and all the lawyers tried to say that 
 what was the matter with him was a disease, and tried to prove it by 
 doctors. They tried to prove that it was what they called a kepto- 
 rnauiac. 
 
 Q. You mean kleptomaniac?—A. Yes, sir; they think if a colored 
 man steals he is not a kleptomaniac, but if it is a white man it is a 
 kleptomaniac. 
 
 Q. Is there any difference in the treatment of the colored men and 
 white men in your courts ?—A. Sometimes there is a little difference. 
 
 Q. Do these differences become the subject of complaint among your 
 people?—A. Well, sir, there has been no people in my section that has 
 been sent to jail since the surrender. It is generally the refugees who 
 come in there from other counties. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Who is the solicitor in your district ?—A. Swift Galloway. 
 
 Q. What are his politics ?—A. He is a Democrat. 
 
 Q. Who was before him ?—A. Log. Harris. 
 
 Q. Mr. Cook was the first Democratic solicitor ?—A. Yes, sir ; Harris 
 was solicitor before. 
 
 Q. And he was a Republican ?—A. Yes, sir ; but you appointed 
 Cook. 
 
 Q. And he is a pretty fair man, isn’t he ?—A. Yes, sir, but this judge 
 who said this about the kleptomaniac was a Democratic judge ; and he 
 did not believe in the kleptomania, and he put him in jail. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. But got to the penitentiary ?—A. No, sir; he was one of those who 
 got out of jail. There were a heap of them got out—Republicans aud 
 Democrats too. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HILLIARD ELLIS. 
 
 Hilliard Ellis, colored, sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where is your place of residence?—Answer. In four miles 
 of Wilson Township, in the county of Wilson, North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Has there been any movement among the colored people with 
 reference to this exodus movement in your section?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 suppose there has been some. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about it?—A. Well, sir, I have heard 
 people talking about it. 
 
 Q. Do you know what inducement was held out to them to leave 
 North Carolina?—A. Some, I think, were goiug for better wages, and 
 some were complaining that they could not get their rights under the law. 
 I cannot really tell you all that was said, for I just heard it. I think 
 some of them went just to have a big ride—some for one thing and 
 some for another. They did not talk much to me about it. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 255 
 
 Q. Why ?—A. Because I suppose they thought it was no use talking to 
 me; I wasn’t going nohow. They organized a club there, I understand. 
 
 Q. Was that a secret society ?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. Nobody 
 could get their secrets unless he joined the club. 
 
 Q. Was there any agents up there making speeches to them ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; there was a fellow from Goldsboro’ by the name of Evans ; I 
 think they said that was the name. He was encouraging the thing 
 along, as I heard it. 
 
 Q. What were the inducements he held out to these people?—A. He 
 said they could get from one to two and three and four dollars a day, 
 according to the season. When spring opens, I think they were to get 
 two dollars and a half and three dollars. 
 
 Q. Was that in Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ho you know what inducement was offered them about transpor¬ 
 tation ?—A. Yes, sir; I heard some say that they had to pay so much, 
 and then they gave them the secret of how to get along out to Indiana. 
 Some of them thought they were to go free. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am a farmer. 
 
 Q. Do you own land ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much ?—A. I have a little upwards of two hundred acres. 
 
 Q. Is it good or poor land ?—A. It is tolerably good land. 
 
 Q. What is it valued at?—A. I can hardly tell you, but my taxes are 
 twelve or thirteen dollars a year, as I pay no poll tax. 
 
 Q. You can tell us the usual price of labor there ?—A. In my neigh¬ 
 borhood we don’t pay as much as they do down below on the big farms. 
 The wages are eight and ten dollars down there ; but we don’t push them 
 up our way, and only pay them seven and nine dollars. That is the 
 price right in my neighborhood. 
 
 Q. What does that include?—A. It gives them a house rent free, 
 fire-wood free, aud a patch to tend, and five pounds of meat, and a peck 
 of meal a week. 
 
 Q. You pay them from seven to nine dollars, according to the grade 
 of the hand?—A. Yes, sir; but there are some I would rather give 
 nine to than to give seven to others. 
 
 Q. You give them five pounds ration, a peck of meal, a house, a 
 patch, and fire-wood free?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long does that last ?—A. That is for twelve months. I gen¬ 
 erally hire for a year at a time. 
 
 Q. What do day-laborers get when you hire them ?—A. Forty cents 
 a day, with lodgings aud rations. 
 
 Q. Is there any restriction upon the legal rights of the colored peo¬ 
 ple in your county? Are they interfered with in their right to vote ?—A. 
 No, sir; not at my township. I have been poll-holder there myself for 
 a long time. 
 
 Q. You mean you have been a judge of elections?—A. Yes, sir. Some¬ 
 times we have little differences about the men’s registering, but there is 
 no violations and no difficulties there. 
 
 Q. Do the colored people vote the same as others ?—A. Yes, sir ; a 
 black man votes the same as a white man. 
 
 Q. Is it the same way all over the county ?—A. I heard of little dis¬ 
 turbances around in places, but I do not think there were any disturb¬ 
 ances in town. 
 
 Q. Your voting-place is not in Wilson—in the town, I mean ?—A. 
 No, sir; I live four miles out, and vote at a place about a mile from my 
 place. 
 
 Q. What is the state of feeling between the whites aud the blacks 
 
256 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. . 
 
 there ?—A. I have heard of no difficulties between them. I know, of 
 course, in town, when they are drinking, of Saturday evenings, they 
 are liable to have difficulties and fights. But there is nothing political 
 in that. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any reason, in the way of political disturbances 
 or proscription or discrimination of the laws, to make these people leave 
 your country?—A. No, sir. One thing I heard them say, that they were 
 going where they could get better wages; that they could not live on the 
 prices it cotton was low. But I think it amounted to about the same, 
 in the way of living, as when they got thirteen and fourteen cents for 
 cotton. They could get meat for five cents, which was cheaper than 
 they ever got it before. The price of cotton is better than it was last 
 year, and and the price of labor has gone up with it. 
 
 Q. About how much real estate has been acquired by the colored 
 people in your county?—A. I could not tell you, sir. I know people 
 right in my neighborhood, and could pick out scattered men, who own a 
 good deal. 
 
 Q. Can a colored man who is sober and industrious stand as good a 
 chance as a white man to acquire property, when both of them start 
 without any ?—A. Well, sir, I have always done so myself. 
 
 Q. Can one do as well as the other?—A. I think they do. If any 
 difference has been made, I can’t see it. I alw T ays do well myself. 
 
 Q. These men, you said, were going to Indiana for better wages: 
 have you heard anything from them since they have been out there?— 
 A. I have heard of them, but not myself. Mr. Farmer, who lives near 
 me, received a letter from some of them, which they said to send to 
 Hilliard Ellis’s church to be read. 
 
 Q. Was it read?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were the contents of it?—A. He wanted them to make up 
 some money to bring him back home. He said he wanted all the mem¬ 
 bers to throw in a little to help him. 
 
 Q. What reason did he give for wanting to come home ?—A. He said 
 he had been there eighteen days and only made two dollars. He said 
 he had stopped there in town and could get no work, and he wanted his 
 friends to help him back. 
 
 Q. Did he come back?—A. No, sir; not yet, unless he has got there 
 since I left home. 
 
 Q. Did they make up money for him?—A. No, sir; I think they said 
 they didn’t know whether he would get the money or not; and they 
 would look further into it. They asked me if I would give something, 
 and I said I did not know. 
 
 Q. Could a man who is getting ten dollars a month, his house and 
 rations, and a patch to tend to, support himself and family on that?— 
 A. He ought to do it at the present prices of provisions. 
 
 Q. In the cotton-picking season, don’t the women and children make 
 good wages ?—A. Yes, sir; that is the time of their best wages. A 
 child can pick out as much as a man, almost, and they make more in 
 cotton-picking time, than any other time. That is the reason that a 
 good many of them won’t hire only until fall. They work until the crop 
 is laid up, and then depend on making double wages during the picking 
 season. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any complaint’s as to injustice being done them 
 in the courts ?—A. I have heard some of them grumble about not get¬ 
 ting justice in some cases; but I have heard both sides to that. One 
 says that they didn’t do right, and the other say that it was right, and 
 backwards and forwards in that way. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 257 
 
 Q. Is there no complaint that there is a difference made in the courts 
 between whites and blacks ? —A. I have heard of it. I have heard some 
 of them say they didn’t get justice because they were black men. 
 
 Q. You do not know of any case that was so?—A. No, sir; I only 
 heard that the colored people, as a general thing, was oftener in the 
 courts for larceny than the white people. 
 
 Q. That makes a difference and causes more of them to be in the peni¬ 
 tentiary?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Because more of them commit these little crimes l —A. Yes, sir; I 
 think they think they are not dealt justly by, and then sometimes they 
 slip into the penitentiary before they know it, not being enlightened to 
 know the law. But, I think, in my neighborhood, they try and take 
 care of themselves. 
 
 Q. When a colored man has an established character for integrity and 
 honesty, don’t he stand the same chance of getting justice as the white 
 man ?—A. I think he does in my town ; I dou’t go there myself about 
 the courts, and I only hear about it after the courts are done. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You spoke of some complaints ; are they general among the colored 
 people ?—A. I have heard them complain a good deal after the courts 
 were over for a while. I have heard them say that in such and such a 
 case that was tried that they didn’t think that they got justice because 
 it was a colored person. 
 
 Q. Did they think it was injustice to them because of their color?— 
 A. Yes, sir: on account of their color. But then, you know, in many 
 times they may be mistaken. 
 
 Q. There is an impression that they didn’t get even-handed justice? 
 —A. That is the talk among them; but I don’t get to see aud I don’t 
 know that any wrong is done them. I would not know, probably, if I 
 was to see it. 
 
 Q. Dave you heard anything in the way of complaints about the 
 tenants law ?—A. Yes, sir, a little; but not enough to tell. 
 
 Q. Is your county Republican or Democratic?—A. It is Democratic, 
 and always has been. They have got a majority there. 
 
 Q. How far do you live from Goldsborough ?—A. It is about twenty- 
 four miles from Wilson to Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. About how many people have gone from your county ?—A. I do 
 not know, sir ; really I could not tell. But there are a good many gone 
 right out of that town. 
 
 Q. You say you have heard of some political troubles in Wilson County? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; but not serious. They were just little differences between 
 individual men. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any of them given as a reason for this emigration ? 
 —A. No, sir; but some of them says they wanted to go where they could 
 get better wages. 
 
 Q. You said you heard of no disturbance in your locality, but there 
 were some in Wilson?—A. Yes, sir; but it was mostly from whisky. 
 It would be where they were drinking, and they would have a drunken 
 fight. There was no Democrats or no Republicans in it. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ELLIS DICKSON. 
 
 Ellis Dickson, colored, sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator VANCE : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. In Green Couuty. 
 17 EX 
 
258 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What is your nearest railroad station ?—A. Kinston is the nearest 
 raiload station. 
 
 Q. How tar do you live from there?—A. I live fifteen miles from 
 there. I live on Snow Hill. 
 
 Q. Wh at is your occupation ?—A. I am a mechanic. 
 
 Q. What kind of mechanic?—A. A mill wright. 
 
 Q. Are you a farmer too?—A. Yes, sir; I farm some, too. 
 
 Q. Have there been any colored people left your county in this exodus 
 movement?—A. Yes, sir; some few. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any reasons why they left; what they said about 
 it?—A. 1 have heard them say they were going because they heard 
 they could get better wages; and they thought, probably, they could 
 do better in Indiana than they were doing there. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear them say anything about the fourteenth or fif¬ 
 teenth amendments being repealed if they did not get up North in a cer¬ 
 tain time?—A. No, sir; I never heard of that. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of anybody making speeches to them ?—A. I think 
 there wasone man came down there and made a speech to them. 1 
 don’t know his name, but he went in the court-house and made a little 
 speech. 1 went up and heard it, and it sounded so much like nothing 
 to me that I turned right around and went home. 
 
 Q. Don’t you remember his name?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the colored people in that county with 
 regard to their material interests? How are they doing and prosper¬ 
 ing ?—a. Some in our county are getting along tolerably well, and some, 
 I suppose, are doing sorry. 
 
 Q. As compared with the white folks, who have to work the same as 
 they, are they doing as well?—A. Just about the same. 
 
 Q. Is there any persecution of them in respect to their political 
 rights?—A. No, sir; none at all. I have been to the ballot-box often, 
 and seen black and white people riding together, and voting different 
 ways. 
 
 Q. Is there any disturbance among them, concerning their right to 
 vote ?—A. They vote the same as white men, so far as I see. 
 
 Q. How are they situated as to their schools?—A. They have their 
 free schools just the same as the white people. The white people have 
 their free schools to themselves. 
 
 Q. What are the average wages in your county for ordinary farm 
 laborers?—A. Last year they were seven, eight, and nine dollars, and 
 on up to ten for some hands. 
 
 Q. Then, from seven to ten would be the wages?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What does that include?—A. It includes his house, his board, fire¬ 
 wood, and a little patch. That is the general way that they work on 
 wages. 
 
 Q. Do any of them crop?—A. Yes, sir; a great many tend to crops 
 on shares. 
 
 Q. How much do they pay the landlord when they crop on shares?— 
 A. If a man furnishes all his own material—his horses, plows, and sup¬ 
 plies—he pays one-third of the corn and one-fourth of the cotton, while 
 some of them rent for eight hundred or a thousand pounds to the horse. 
 
 Q. How much is that?—A. Well, sir, it generally rents at the rate of 
 eight hundred pounds for thirty acres. If he crops and gets the mate¬ 
 rial and supplies from the landlord, then the tenant gets one-third of the 
 corn and one fourth of the cotton. 
 
 Q. That is just about reversing it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it the landlord furnishes only the land, and the tenant his own 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 259 
 
 stock, lie pays one-third of the corn and one fourth of the cotton?—A. 
 Yes, sir; but sometimes he has a contract, and pays a third of the cot¬ 
 ton, according to the quality of the land. 
 
 Q. And if the landlord furnishes everything, the payment is reversed. 
 —A. Y"es, sir; that is the general way. I have some croppers on my 
 place who pay me a fourth of the cotton and a third of the corn, and 
 that is the general rule in my neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Well, so far as yourself is concerned, your business is that of a 
 millwright?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you find employment at your business?—A. I find something 
 to do pretty much all of the time. 
 
 Q. Do you work for wages or by the job?—A. By the job, but some¬ 
 times for wages. 
 
 Q. How much do you get a day when you work for wages ?—A. Three 
 and a half a day, and sometimes four dollars. I have known as high as 
 five dollars to be paid in our country. 
 
 Q. What are the usual wages per day ?—A. Two and a half and three 
 to four dollars. 
 
 Q. Is there any difference in the wages between white men and black 
 men .—A. None in the millwright business. I get as much as any white 
 man who goes down there. 
 
 Q. Have you found any discrimination, where men would not hire 
 you because you were a colored man?—A. No, sir; I never had any 
 such experience as that. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that these people would have been satisfied if it 
 had not been for these statements about better wages made tu them?— 
 A. I must say, they would, from the way they were stirred up about it. 
 They were told that they could get three dollars a day and tweuty dol¬ 
 lars a month ; and that sounds mighty nice to get that much money. 
 They were told that land was cheaper, and they would get homes in a 
 short time. 
 
 Q. When you take a job, as boss millwright, do you have hands under 
 you ?—A. Yes, sir ; I have had as high as eighteen and fifteen, down to 
 ten. 
 
 Q. How much do you pay them?—A. I have none who work for less 
 than ten and twelve dollars a month, and from that on to sixteen and 
 eighteen dollars. 
 
 Q. These are not skilled laborers, are they?—A. No, sir; they are 
 men who come in and move and lift things around. 
 
 Q. Do you ever employ white men under you ?—A. Yes, sir 
 
 Q Did you pay them the same?—A. Yes, sir; the same wages. I 
 have paid some of them more, and have paid them as high as four and 
 a half a day, white and colored. 
 
 Q What is the state of feeling between the white and colore I men in 
 your section?—A. Why, it seems to be friendly down there in my neigh¬ 
 borhood; so far as I know, it is so in my county. 
 
 Q. Have any of your colored people down there bought land?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you an idea how much they own in your county ?—A. I have 
 an idea about those who are close around me. I guess there are some 
 five or six men who have bought right close around me. One I know 
 bought three hundred acres, another one hundred acres not more than 
 three weeks ago; and there are two or three who own land a little 
 further off. 
 
 Q. Do you know Colonel Jones, up seven miles above Snow Hill ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. I bought my place from him. 
 
260 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. How is it with the colored people about tlieir schools'?—A. We 
 have very fine schools down there, considering. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that the colored people down there are doing as 
 well as white people with the same start?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. What is good land worth—such as you bought?—A. From nine 
 to ten dollars an acre. 1 believe that is what they pay down there. 
 
 Q. Have you heard any complaints from colored people about dis¬ 
 criminations being made against them on account of their color?—A. 
 No, sir; not any worth noticing. I have heard something about the 
 white people not dealing justly by them ; but I think maybe they are 
 mistaken. 
 
 Q. You think there is none, then ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How about the juries down there?—A. We have colored jurors; 
 we used to have half colored, but we don’t now. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of white and colored people in your county? 
 —A. I do not exactly know. 
 
 Q. The blacks are the largest in number?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Is this a Democratic or Republican county ?—A. It is Republican. 
 
 Q. Do you know the majority of colored people—the Republican 
 majority, rather?—A. I am acquainted with two hundred, I believe. 
 
 Q. Then you elect your Republican officers ?—A. Yes, sir. But then 
 the number is a little less now than two hundred, I think. 
 
 Q. How far is it from you to Goldsborougk ?— A. Twenty-five miles 
 from my place. 
 
 Q. Has there any considerable number of colored people left your 
 county ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any considerable dissatisfaction among them down there ? 
 —A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. I did not ask you your politics.—A. I am a Republican. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF NAPOLEON HIGGINS. 
 
 Napoleon Higgins, colored, sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. Near Goldsborough. I 
 don’t stay iu Goldsborough, but it is my county seat. I live fifteen 
 miles from town 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?—A. I am farming. 
 
 Q. Do you farm your own land ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much do you own ?—A. Four hundred and eighty-five acres. 
 
 Q. How did you get it?—A. I worked for it. 
 
 Q. Were you formerly a slave ?—A. No, sir ; I was a free mau before 
 the war. 
 
 Q. You say y r ou worked for it ?—A. Yes, sir ; 1 worked for it, and got 
 it since the war. 
 
 Q. \\ hat is it worth per acre ?—A. 1 don’t know, sir, what it is worth 
 now. I know what I paid for it. 
 
 Q. What did you pay for it?—A. I believe I paid $5,500; and then 
 I have got a little town lot there that 1 don’t count ; but I think it is 
 worth about $500. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 261 
 
 Q. Then you have made that all since the war?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much cotton do you raised—A. I don’t raise as much as I 
 ought to. I only raised fifty-eight bales last year. 
 
 Q. What is that worth ?—A. I think I got $55 a bale. 
 
 Q. How many hands do you work yourself?—A. I generally rent my 
 land. I only worked four last year, and paid the best hand, who fed 
 the mules and tended around the house, ten dollars; and the others I 
 paid ten, and eight, and seven. 
 
 Q. That was last year?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you give them besides their pay?—A. I gave them 
 rations ; and to a man with a family I gave a garden patch and a house, 
 and a place to raise potatoes. 
 
 Q. What about the rate of wages in your section of the country ; does 
 that represent them ?—A. Yes, sir; of course a no-account hand don’t 
 get much, and a smart oue gets good wages. 
 
 Q. Have you made auy contracts for this year?—A. Yes, sir ; but I 
 am only hiring two hands this 3 T ear. 
 
 Q. What do your tenants pay you for the use of your laud?—A. 
 Some of the tenants give me a third of the corn and a third of the cot¬ 
 ton. Then I have got some more land that I rent out to white men, 
 and they give me a fourth of the cotton, and another gives me a thou¬ 
 sand pounds of lint cotton for twenty acres. 
 
 Q. Hoes anybody interfere with your right to vote down there ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with any of the rights of your race?—A. No, sir; we vote freely 
 down there. Of course, if one man can persuade you to vote with him, 
 that is all right. But you can vote as you please. 
 
 Q. What are your politics ?—a. I am a Republican, and that is the 
 way my township generally votes. 
 
 Q. You say there is no interference with the rights of your race 
 there ?—A. Not that I know of. 
 
 A. There has been something said here about the landlord and tenant 
 act. Do you think that does anybody auy harm?—A. I think it is a good 
 law. 
 
 Q. The object of it is to give you a lien on everything your tenant has 
 until your rent is paid?—A. Yes, sir ; and I think I am entitled to that. 
 
 Q. These white tenants cau’t run off any of your cotton until you are 
 paid?—A. No, sir; I am live or six miles from them, and they can’t 
 run it off. They might do it and I not see them if 1 did not have the 
 law to back me; and they are just as apt to run it all off as not when 
 they start. 
 
 Q. Then you think it is a good protection to you in your rights?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. Do you have any schools down there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the money raised for them ? Most of it is by a property- 
 tax, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the poll-tax all goes to education except twenty-five cents on 
 the dollar?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know how much laud your race has acquired in that 
 county?—A. I reckon they have got fifteen hundred acres in our town¬ 
 ship; but I could not tell how much in the county. 
 
 Q. Is there any distinction made between the whites and the blacks 
 down there in the renting of lands?—A. None that I know of. 
 
 Q. Both are paid the same wages ?—A. Yes, sir ; unless a man wants 
 to hire some man to lock his doors and look after and keep his keys; 
 
262 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 then they pay him more. And if it is a colored man that he has confi¬ 
 dence in, they pay him the same. 
 
 Q. Is there any disposition there to take all white men as tenants'?— 
 A. No, sir; in our township they take them without regard to color. If 
 a man is a smart man, he gets in just the same as a white man. Col¬ 
 ored men rent from white men, and white men from colored men. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any talk with any of those people who went to 
 Indiana?—A. No, sir; I never saw one who went. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any of the speeches of any of these men who were 
 stirring up these men ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see any of their circulars?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor hear of any inducements offered to them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you get any letters from any of them who went out there?— 
 A. No, sir ; I wasn’t acquainted with any who went. I learned more of 
 it at Goldsborougb, last Monday night, when I was coming on here, 
 than I ever knew before. 
 
 Q. Are there any complaints among your people as to discriminations 
 in the courts, between the whites and blacks?—A. Yes, sir; I have 
 heard them say that the same evidence that will convict a colored man 
 for stealing won’t convict a white man. 
 
 Q. When they are convicted, are they punished alike?—A. Yes, sir; 
 in the same cases. I have spoke to them and told them, lots of times, 
 that of course they would be convicted many times where a white man 
 would get out, and the only way to avoid that was to quit stealing. I 
 told them, a white man has got more sense and more money to pay law T - 
 yers and knows better how to hide his rascality, and the best way for 
 the colored man to keep out of the penitentiary was to quit stealing. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Is it the general impression among colored people down there 
 that they don’t get justice?—A. Yes, sir; when two or three colored 
 men get convicted they think so. But there are more black men con¬ 
 victed because there are more of them tried. 
 
 Q. You say they have not got sense enough to get out of it when 
 they get in; they have attorneys, do they not?—A. Yes, sir; but very 
 often they have not got the money to feed up an attorney; and, you 
 know, the more you pay a lawyer the more he sticks with you. 
 
 Q. Is there not discrimination therein the employment of mechanics ? 
 —A. No, sir; I never heard of it. 
 
 By Senator Vooriiees: 
 
 Q. Do you know of any of these people, white and black, who have 
 been convicted that you thought were convicted wrongfully?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You thought they were rightfully convicted ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been on juries yourself; did you ever make any differ¬ 
 ence between them ?—A. No, sir; I have sat on juries there many times, 
 and sat on a case of a white man who was tried for his life. 
 
 Q. Was there any other colored men on that jury ?—A. No, sir; I was 
 the only one on that one; but 1 have been on others. 
 
 Q. You have sat on juiies when white men’s cases were being tried, 
 both on the criminal and on the civil sides of the court?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any white man object to you sitting there?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then most of this talk about discrimination and injustice is by 
 men who have been disappointed in the results of their suits ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You see no cause for it yourself?—A. No, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 263 
 
 Q. You have be ird white men who complained just as bitterly ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; of course. I suppose they are like I am. I always try to beat 
 the case. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You say ,>ou think this laud and tenant act a good thing; do you 
 think the renter is in favor of it?—A. I don’t know; they never say 
 anything to me about it. I am on the other side of that question. 
 
 Q. Does not the fact that you own 285 acres of land give you a little 
 better standing in the community than most of your colored friends ?— 
 A. Of course; I suppose it does. 
 
 Q. How did you start it?—A. I rented a farm and started on two 
 government horses. I went to the tightest man I knew and got him to 
 help me. I rented from Mr. Exam out there. 
 
 Q. Are there any others there who have succeeded as well as you?— 
 A. Yes, sir, there are. One or two more who have succeeded better 
 than me. There are several of them in good circumstances there in 
 our township. I think, altogether, they own 1,500 acres there. 
 
 Q. How many colored people own this?—A. 1 reckon 150. 
 
 Q. The 1,500 acres is divided up among 150 people ?—A. No, sir; a 
 good many of them have got none. 
 
 Q. This is what I asked you : How many own this 1,500 acres, all put 
 together?—A. I reckon a dozen. It might not be more than eight.. It 
 is from eight to a dozen, anyhow. But there are a number who own 
 some little lots of four or live acres that I have not mentioned. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. O. DANE. 
 
 J. C. Dane sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you live, Mr. Dane?—Answer. Richmond is my 
 headquarters. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am traveling agent of the Chesa¬ 
 peake and Ohio Railroad. 
 
 Q. What have yon been doing, with reference to the transportation 
 of emigrants ?—A. Nothing, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you try to do ?—A. After I found out what they were 
 doing, and that they were under the control of the Baltimore and Ohio 
 Railroad, I knew we had a shorter route, and I tried to get at the negroes 
 w'io were controlling t’ at. 
 
 Q. Who did you go to?—A. To Tailor, Evans, and this man, Scott. 
 
 Q Where did you see them ?—A. In Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. When?—A. The first time I saw them was the first week in De¬ 
 cember. I went down there and saw how they were going, and in what 
 
 way. 
 
 Q. Were you sent by the company ?—A. I had no instructions from 
 any officer. I have my general instructions to look after business. 
 
 Q. A r ou are a passenger agent?—Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And nou went to see if you could get your share of these emi¬ 
 grants?—A. Y r es, sir; I wanted to see how they were going. I did not 
 know they were going by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, at first. 
 
 Q. What did they tell you?—A. I heard that they were coming by Wash 
 ingtou ; and I heard from some of them that they said they could only 
 
264 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 pay to Washington or Weldon ; and I said that I didn’t want any busi¬ 
 ness of that kind. They were just trusting, after they got here, to the 
 government or to the aid society. 
 
 Q. They were starting in the dark, then, and trusting to these agen¬ 
 cies to get them on ?—A. Yes, sir; I was there on the 2d of December, 
 and 1 think they left the next day. I staid over that day and came up 
 to Richmond on the same train. 
 
 Q. Did you see Dukelieart there ?—A. A r es, sir; he was there, and he 
 went in charge of them. 
 
 Q. He bid lower for them than you ?—A. Yes, sir; I suppose so. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t it their idea that this, being Washington City, and the seat 
 of the government, that they would get on from here by its aid?—A. 
 Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. But you had no Washington City on your route?—A. No, sir ; if 
 they had gone on my route they would have been thrown, probably, on 
 the hands of our citizens at Richmond or some other point. 
 
 Q. But you nave not taken any of them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. All of them came through Washington ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is about all the connection you had with these men ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. In January 1 went down and saw Evans, and told him I had 
 come to make a proposition to him. The first time, they were then en¬ 
 gaged to the Baltimore and Ohio, and he asked time to see about that. 
 Scott said he would listen to the proposition, as he was clear of the 
 Baltimore and Ohio road. But I have not heard from him since the 
 20th of January. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. The reason you could do nothing with them was because they had 
 a contract with the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you offer these agents a dollar a head ?—A. Y r es, sir ; I would 
 have done better than that for them, because we have a shorter line, and 
 they were working the territory that we think is legitimately ours. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned to Saturday, February 7, at 11 
 a. m. 
 
 ELEVENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Saturday , February 7, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Present: The Chairman (Senator Voorhees), Senators Vance and 
 Windom. 
 
 The taking of testimony was resumed as follows: 
 
 TESTIMONY OF LEONARD G. A. HACKNEY. 
 
 Leonard G. A. Hackney sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. Shelbyville, Shelby Coun¬ 
 ty, Indiana. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. Iain practicing law. 
 
 Q. What position, if any, do you hold ?—A. I am prosecuting attor¬ 
 ney of the sixteenth judicial circuit. 
 
 Q. You may state whether there have been any colored emigrants 
 from North Carolina in your county, or any attempt to put them there? 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 265 
 
 —A. Yes, sir; on the 12th of December a number of them arrived 
 there. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what became of them"?—A. They arrived there in the 
 morning at about 10 o’clock, on the western-bound train. They got off 
 the train right on at the depot platform. It was a very cold morning, 
 and a man by the name of Morgan, a colored man, there took charge of 
 them, and took them to his place of business, a sort of barber’s shop and 
 tenement-house combined. The mayor of the city called the common 
 council together that evening, and made a statement to them in writing, 
 that these people were there in destitute circumstances, and unless aid 
 was given them at once they would suffer and perhaps die from expos¬ 
 ure and starvation. I believe a committee of the council was appointed 
 to provide lor them temporarily through charity, and to feed them, and 
 finally to secure homes for them if they could. I know they remained 
 there at Morgan’s for several days, but what final provision was made 
 for them I do not know. 
 
 Q. How many were there in the crowd?—A. I did not count them, 
 but I was told there were twenty-six. 1 believe the mayor so reported 
 to the council. 
 
 Q. Were they men and women, both ?—A. Yes, sir ; and children. 
 
 Q. What proportion of them were men ?—A. I am not advised as to 
 the proportion. 1 think some six or seven were men. 
 
 Q. You say they landed thereon the 12th of December?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On a bitter cold day ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Without any provision having been made for them?—Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in utter destitution?—A. Yes, sir; the mayor reported so. 
 
 Q, Andy he mayor made an official proclamation that they were in 
 need of charity ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What became of them?—A. I do not know what became of all of 
 them. 1 have seen a number of them about the streets of Shelbyville, 
 but I do not know their employment. 
 
 Q. Do you know where they are living ?—A. 1 know they are in and 
 about Shelby ville. 
 
 Q. Is that the only lot that came to your place ?—A. That is the only 
 lot to my knowledge. I was at the depot at that time, but I have been 
 told there were two or three other squads that came in. One that came 
 to Greesburgh came through in wagons. Others came over the I., C. 
 & L. road to Greensburgh and Saint Paul, and they would be driven in 
 or walk in to Shelby ville. That f have heard, but I do not know it. 
 
 Q. Shelby County is a Democratic county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in the district it is in are Marion and Hancock Counties, and 
 that makes it a close district ?—A. Yes, sir ; the difference it is thought 
 is not more than 200, but I do not think it is any. 
 
 Q. Are the Republicans of the same mind ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the district is composed of Shelby, Marion, and Hancock Coun¬ 
 ties ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you know of negroes going into Hancock County ?—A. 
 I do not remember to have heard' anything of it from Hancock County. 
 
 Q. Have they not gone to Indianapolis?—A. O, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you are prosecuting attorney ; have you in any way in 
 that capacity come into contact with any of these emigrants from North 
 Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. Shortly after their arrival at Shelbyville there 
 was a meeting of citizens, and some resolutions were passed concerning 
 the exodus, and one of the resolutions was to the effect that the officers 
 executing the law should take all proper and necessary steps to ascer- 
 
266 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 tain who was engaged in this business of importing paupers into the 
 county, so that they might be prosecuted. 
 
 Q. What is the law upon that point $ I believe there is a penalty of 
 $500 for bringing a pauper into the State?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I think it is a law of 1852, probably; that is my recollection.—A. 
 I know it is a law of several years’ standing. 
 
 Q. That is making it a penal otfense to bring any pauper into the 
 State?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you receive instructions from the bench upon that point®—A, 
 No, sir, I received none except what was in the resolution where the 
 officers were advised to take all neeessary and proper steps in the mat¬ 
 ter. At that time the grand jury was in session, and they caused sub¬ 
 poenas to be issued, and one or two of these North Carolina emigrants 
 were brought before them. One of them, I do not remember which, 
 but one was named James Harper. 
 
 Q. What was his statement like?—A. 1 heard it only, and it was to 
 the effect that Sam Perry and one Williams visited North Carolina 
 and made speeches and offered inducements to persons to emigrate to 
 Indiana, telling them of their destitution in the South, and the advan¬ 
 tages of the North over the South, ot the liberty they would enjoy there, 
 and the high wages they could receive for their labor, and that their 
 transportation would cost them nothing if they would go. He said 
 there was an arrangement by which their transportation would be paid 
 to Washington, and in Washington there was a society to receive them 
 and pay their expenses to Indiana. He said that from the time they 
 left North Carolina until they reached Indiana they did not know where 
 they were to be located. He said that several car-loads started, and 
 none of them stopped until they reached the Indiana line. Tasked him 
 if he knew of any persons in the train at the time who were not Repub¬ 
 licans. He said that he believed without exception they voted the Re¬ 
 publican ticket. He said there was a sort of understanding that they 
 were to be received there by somebody, but he did not know who it was. 
 
 Q. What did he say about finding these representations true or false ? 
 —A. They had been there so short a time that I knew he did not know 
 as to that, so I did not ask him. 
 
 Q. What did he say about the scope of this emigration scheme ? How 
 many were going to be put into the State?—A. 1 do not think lie stated. 
 Knowing that the political aspect of the movement was insisted on, I 
 asked him—I do not know whether I or the foreman of the grand jury 
 asked the question, but he said all the women who came there had hus¬ 
 bands and would be on after a while. I asked another colored man the 
 question you put to me. 
 
 Q. Who was that?—A. A man who represented himself as Flowers. 
 He represented that lie was sent there from this place by some society. 
 
 Q. What did he say ?—A. He was telling the auditor of our county, 
 Mr. Carson, in the presence of Mr. Henry Ray, Mr. Wilson, and myself, 
 and lie said that some fifteen thousand would be brought into the State. 
 
 Q. Did he say at what time?—A. He said on or about the 1st of Feb¬ 
 ruary ; that is my recollection. He claimed that he had been sent out 
 there to investigate the character and surrounding of a large and pretty 
 vigorous mob at Shelbyville. 
 
 Q. Was there any mob there?—A. It is alleged by some that there 
 was, but 1 do not think so. 
 
 Q. What do you know about it ?—A. I wish to say that I was not 
 present. I make this statement because it has been reported that I was 
 present. Although 1 do not insist very vigorously on the denial, as I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 267 
 
 am a Democrat and opposed to the exodus, yet I make it to set myself 
 right. On the night this mob was reported to have visited the station 
 I was going home, and saw half a dozen people standing near the 
 stairs leading to Mr. Blair’s law office. I halted near them, and they 
 told me—some one did—to go upstairs. I went upstairs and found 
 several gentlemen assembled there, and among them several gentlemen 
 appointed on a committee to visit the trains and see the character and 
 extent of the exodus coming into Indiana. Somebody said that a tele¬ 
 gram had been received from Cincinnati, stating that a train load of 
 emigrants were coming on to Shelby ville. Judge Ord and Mr. Glessner 
 and I met them there, and we went home together. I can only tell from 
 the statements of these persons who were present as to what was done, 
 and their statements differ very much from the statements made in the 
 newspapers, both as to the persons present and the character of the 
 transactions. 
 
 Q. That was the kind of mob that was spoken of?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was no question of opposition on the part of your folks to 
 these people coming there because they were colored people only ?—A. 
 No, sir; but I think there is a decided opposition to it by the Demo¬ 
 crats and by the more respectable portion of the population in our town, 
 without regard to the color of the people. 
 
 Q. Is it opposed by the workingmen ?—A. I think by a large portion 
 of them, but I do not know that I can approximate the number. 
 
 Q. It is winked at and connived at by your town politicians of the 
 Republican party?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the attitude of the Republican newspaper in your town ? 
 —A. It hajs taken occasion to assail anything that the Democrats or the 
 Democratic papers say about it. I do not remember to have seen any 
 other encouragement it has given to it. 
 
 Q. They give it no other encouragement than to oppose the Demo¬ 
 crats for opposing it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the name of that paper?—A. It is called the Republican. 
 It is a daily and weekly paper, edited by Simeon J. Thomas, Mr. Win¬ 
 gate, and Mr. Bone. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Bone?—A. Alfred P. Bone is postmaster. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any Republican newspaper that is opposed to this 
 emigration ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They are all hostile to this investigation ?—A. As far as 1 have 
 seen they are inclined to ridicule it; but this man Flowers said there was 
 an organization here, an emigration society, that was furnishing trans¬ 
 portation to these people, and that there was a subordinate society in 
 Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Did he mention anybody there who was active in the matter ?—A. 
 No, sir ; I did not ask about that. 
 
 Q. Will you state what that book is (handing a book to the witness) ? 
 —A. It is the acts of the regular and special session of the legislature 
 of 1875 of our State. 
 
 Q. I wish you would read there on page 10G of the acts of the Indi¬ 
 ana legislature on the subject of landlords and tenants.—A. (Reading.) 
 
 “ Section 1. Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Indiana, 
 That section seventeen of theabove recited act be, and the same is hereby, 
 amended to read as follows: Section 17. In all cases where the tenant 
 agrees to pay, as rent, a part of the crop raised on the leased premises,, 
 or a cash lent, the landlord shall have a lien on the crop raised, under 
 such contract, for the payment of such rent: Provided , That nothing 
 herein contained shall prohibit the tenant from removing from such 
 
268 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 leased premises and disposing of so much of said growing crop, not more 
 than his part, when the rent is to be paid in part of the crop raised, and 
 in other cases, not more than one-half of the crop growing or matured. 
 Approved March 11, 1875.” 
 
 Q. That seems to be a lien on the whole crop with the privilege to the 
 tenant of the removing of such portion as is his to the extent of not 
 more than one-half?—A. Yes, sir. Where the rent is to be paid out of 
 the crop, he is prevented from removing more than one-half of his own 
 portion, and where it is a cash reut he can remove more than a half to 
 create a lien on the whole, if it is at cash prices. 
 
 Q. It is claimed here that the penal laws of North Carolina are very 
 severe upon the crime of petit larceny. As you are prosecuting attor¬ 
 ney, state what are the laws in your State on that subject, and for what 
 time a man can be sent to the penitentiary for it.—A. The general stat¬ 
 ute defining petit larceny and prescribing a penalty provides that the 
 larceny of any sum under $15 shall be punished by imprisonment in 
 the State penitentiary for a term not more than 14 years, and not less 
 than one year. 
 
 Q. I think a man can be sent to the penitentiary for stealing one 
 cent for not less than a year, and not more than three?—A. Yes’, sir; 
 that is the amendment of 1877. 
 
 Q. Now there was an act passed at the last session of our legislature, 
 which I could not get this morning, on the subject of burglary or bur¬ 
 glarious trespass; I wish you would describe it.—A. There was an en¬ 
 actment during the last session of the legislature of 1879 to the effect 
 that any person who should, in the day or night, with or without force, 
 enter the property—describing different characters of property—of an¬ 
 other, with the intention of committing any misdemeanor or doing per¬ 
 sonal violence, or removing any property which the party was not au¬ 
 thorized to remove, he should be guilty of felony, and imprisoned not 
 more than fourteen and not less than two years. 
 
 Q. Then if a man were to step into an outh mse for a loaf of bread or 
 apiece of bacou-ham, he could be punished in that way?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it not passed because people were tramping around through 
 the State, and going into outhouses ami stealing ?—A. I do not know 
 the entire spirit of it, but when the session first met there were some 
 young men in our county charged with larceny, and the evidence estab¬ 
 lished that they had gone to a man’s stable and taken his horse, or per¬ 
 haps two horses and sleigh ; and they had driven around over the coun¬ 
 try. He pursued them and did not get up with them until they came 
 back to the stable. It was not their intention to steal the property, but 
 only to use it for their frolic; and hence it was an error in charging 
 either larceny or burglary, as there was no felonious intent. There was 
 another case of a tramp who had gone to the house of a lady there and 
 taken her horse and ridden it some distance and then turned it loose. 
 So I wrote to Major Gordon and suggested some, such an act as this, and 
 it was passed. 
 
 Q. Then it must have commended itself to the votes of a majority of 
 the members of the legislature?—A. Yes, sir; but 1 do not know what 
 occurred at the passage of it. 
 
 Q. What is the demand for unskilled laborers in Shelby County ?— 
 A. Well, sir, our poor farm is conducted with, I think, very great econ¬ 
 omy, at an expenditure of $10,000 a year, and so far as my knowledge 
 and information is concerned, the demand for labor has always been 
 abundantly supplied, and still there has been ample demands made 
 upon the accommodations of the farm. 
 
* 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 269 
 
 Q. What do you know of people seeking labor about there and not 
 finding it?—A. I know of many round there who are good laborers 
 who complain of having no work to perform. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. What is the name of your county?—A. Shelby. 
 
 Q. How many of these people have come in there ?—A. I have no ac¬ 
 curate knowledge of the number. 1 was told by persons who counted 
 the first batch that there were 2G. 
 
 Q. That you say, was December 12?—A. Y r es, sir; my information 
 is not very definite as to the number following that. 
 
 • Q. What is your best information about the others?—A. I think I 
 could safely say as many as twenty have come in since that. 
 
 Q. Were they men or women mostly ?—A. These I understand to 
 have been men who have come in since. 
 
 Q. All of them ?—A. I have understood so. 
 
 Q. How many men were there in the first batch ?—A. As I stated, I 
 do not know myself, but I was told six or seven, and I am not certain 
 but that I got that information from this man Harper. 
 
 Q. Then there were about the usual number of men out of the first 
 twenty six composing families?—A. I do not know, sir, as to that. I 
 think this man told me he had charge of one or two families, and that 
 the husbands had not come, but were to arrive. 
 
 Q. Then there were rather more than the usual number of women and 
 children ?—A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. You said something of a number of them getting off at a station 
 and walking or riding in ?—A. I think I'have heard of some getting off 
 at Greeusburgh and Saint Paul, twenty miles, probably. 
 
 Q. They would get oft* at the station and come in at night, I under¬ 
 stand ?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what was the reason of that?—A. I do not know, 
 but I understood they had some fears of violence. 
 
 Q. Was that after the organization of this self-constituted committee 
 of which you spoke, and who were to go and see them arrive?—A. I do 
 not speak of anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. What is that room of which you spoke ?—A. I stated it was a room 
 once occupied by Mr. Blair as a law office, and I went up there. 
 
 Q. Who did you find there ?—A. I found fifteen or twenty persons 
 there. 
 
 Q. What were they doing ?—A. They were talking about receiving a 
 telegram from Cincinnati that a large train load of emigrants had 
 started to Shelbyville, and were going down there to the depot to in¬ 
 quire into it. 
 
 Q. Was it just a simple inquiry that they were going to make? Did 
 it occur to you that that was rather a novel way to make an inquiry?— 
 A. No, sir; I do not think it occurred to me in any way. 
 
 Q. How did it occur to you as an officer of the law?—A. I do not 
 think as an officer it occurred to me at all. 
 
 Q. How did it occur to you as a citizen ?—A. It occurred to me that 
 there w r ere some hoodlums going down there to act the fool. 
 
 Q. What kind of people were they in this party?—A. They were not 
 the best class of people, some of them. 
 
 Q. You thought they were a crowd of roughs going down to the train 
 to act the tool?—A. I think some in the party were pretty rough. 
 
 Q. How many respectable people did you notice ? —A. Four or five. 
 
 Q. Were they opposing the operations of the hoodlums in the matter 
 of investigating the train ?—A. I heard no talk of it. 
 
270 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What were they doing ?—A. They were quiet, and two of the gen¬ 
 tlemen came out and we went off together. 
 
 Q. What did they say they were going to do, these hoodlums?—A. 
 They said they were going down there to tell the damned niggers they 
 could not stop there. 
 
 Q. Did they do anything more ?—A. No, sir. I thought they might 
 go down there an<i talk loud and give us just such a report as we got. 
 
 Q. The report made of that affair was pretty rough in some cases, 
 was it not?—A. Yes, sir; and I expected it from the character of our 
 partisan newspapers. 
 
 Q. And you saw all that was going on, and as a peace officer did not 
 speak to prevent it?—A. I am not a peace officer. 
 
 Q. If you see a mob in process of forming, do not you feel it to be 
 your duty to tell people to desist?—A. I did not take it that there was 
 anything in the character of a mol) there. 
 
 Q. What is a mob in your estimation ? —A. Well, it is something in 
 the character of a crowd of people with pistols, rocks, and bludgeons 
 bent on doing violence. 
 
 Q. That was the character of the report that was made of this crowd, 
 was it not?—A. Yes, sir; and 1 took occasion to ask a number of peo¬ 
 ple about it, and found there was nothing of the kind. 
 
 Q. Who (lid you ask ?—A. 1 cannot tell you all the persons. 
 
 Q. Who was one of them ?—A. John Hook is one of them. 
 
 Q. Is he a hoodlum ?—A. He is recognized as one by'some people. 
 
 Q. And you went to the hoodlums to hear about what they did ?—A. 
 I went to one of those who were there. 
 
 Q. And you went to them to know what they did as a mob ?—A. I 
 thought they would know best, certainly better than people who were 
 at home in bed. 
 
 Q. Is it the character of your prosecutions that when there is a crime 
 to be prosecuted you go to the criminal to hud out whether he is guilty 
 first?—A. I have frequently had men charged with crimes before a 
 grand jury, and I thought it was my duty to inquire into both sides. 
 
 Q. Who did you inquire of on the other side?—A. I do not think I 
 did so. I did not think it was necessary to make any inquiries on the 
 other side. 
 
 Q. You stated you did make inquiries on the side of the hoodlums ?— 
 A. That was only for personal reasons. 
 
 Q. And you were satisfied that the reports of their transactions were 
 not so?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they Democrats?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who else did you ask?—A. I asked Walter Colt; he was a Re¬ 
 publican. 
 
 Q. What did he say?—A. He said it was a damned lie. 
 
 Q. Most of the Republicans reported the names, did they not ?—A. I 
 do not believe any of them were there. 
 
 Q. You think there were no Republicans about the depot?—A. I do 
 not know of any. 
 
 Q. What did you say to any of them about it?—A. Nothing. 
 
 Q. What did you say when they said in the room that they were 
 going to the train?—A. Not a word. 
 
 Q. Were you not in favor of their going?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you opposed to it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you say about it?—A. I did not give it a thought. 
 
 Q. Who invited you as the prosecuting attorney to go up there ?—A. 
 Nobody did it. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 271 
 
 Q. Were you not tbe prosecuting attorney ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you were invited to their meeting'?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who told you to go upstairs'?—A. I think Mr. Wilson, but there 
 was no consultation about it. He was connected with a newspaper. He 
 is a sort of volunteer, and he simply said to ine to go upstairs. 
 
 Q. Did he go up with y out—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What were the politics of this volunteer?—A. Well, his paper 
 that he was with pretended to be a Democratic paper, but it was doubt¬ 
 ful. 
 
 Q. To get at it straight, now, you were going along on the street and 
 a man invited you upstairs into a room ; now were those parties you 
 found there, those 15 or 20, very much excited?—A. No, sir; I think 
 not. 
 
 Q. They had received news that a train load ot emigrants were 
 coming, and they were going down to see to it; what did they mean by 
 that?—A. They said they were going down to tell the damned niggers 
 they could not get off there. 
 
 Q. And these, you think, were hoodlums?—A. I do not think, and 
 did not say, they were all hoodlums. 
 
 Q. You said there were respectable people and hoodlums in the crowd, 
 and they were going down to the train to tell the damned niggers they 
 could not get off?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You saw them making these arrangements and said nothing?—A. 
 Yes, sir, 1 saw them, and I said nothing. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that it would be a breach of the law to prevent 
 the negroes from getting off the train ?—A. Technically, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, substantially?—A. Yes, sir; but I thought that breach was 
 more than closed by the purposes of bringing them there. 
 
 Q. And you went to your home and to your room ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did not you think that, after the prosecuting officer had been 
 invited into their counsels, and had failed to warn them of their viola¬ 
 tions of the law, they would consider you would not be hard on them ?— 
 A. In the first place, I did not think of it when I got to my room ; I did 
 not think anything about it. I was not sent for to be consulted about 
 it. I was not consulted ; not a word was said to me, personally, about 
 the purposes of their going. 
 
 Q. We understand you that you were invited up there ?—A. I under¬ 
 stand that 1 stopped there and asked what was going on, and they said 
 t> go upstairs, and I went up, and found these men there, heard their 
 conversation, and then went home. 
 
 Q. Is it customary to invite prosecuting officers iu where a conspiracy 
 is being formed ?—A. I do not consider there was any conspiracy iu this 
 case. 
 
 Q. You found respectable men and hoodlums there, and they said a 
 number of people were coming there on a train, and they were going 
 down there to tell them not to get off; did not you understand that that 
 was a conspiracy to intimidate those people ?—A. I understood that 
 there were a number of men who were going down to the train to tell 
 the damned niggers not to get off, and you can make what you please 
 out of it. 
 
 Q. That is what you heard ?—A. That is all I heard. 
 
 Q. How long were you there ?—A. About three minutes. 
 
 Q. Who addressed you first when you went into the room?—A. I 
 stated to you that I was not addressed at all. I stated that I stepped 
 in and staid there a moment or two, and then went home. 
 
 Q. You staid there long enough to know they were going to keep 
 
272 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 these negroes and innocent people of a peaceable character from getting 
 off of the train and stopping in your town?—A. I do not know any¬ 
 thing of the peaceable character of the negroes. I thought if they 
 went down there and did what they said, it would be a decided notice 
 to the negroes that they were not wanted there. 
 
 Q. You thought no violence was going to be committed?—A. No, 
 sir. 1 say they were swearing that the damned negroes should not get 
 off there. 
 
 Q. Were they men who would naturally give a polite notice of that 
 sort to people they did not like?—A. They were the kind of men who 
 usually do more talk than they do acting. I did not believe that there 
 would beany violence, and I think there was none. I think my impres¬ 
 sions at the time were proved to be correct. 
 
 Q. Is it a habit in your county to call the prosecuting attorney in 
 when a thing of that sort is to be done; or did you think that this was 
 a Democratic crime, and you being a Democratic prosecuting attorney, 
 it would make no difference if you were informed of it?—A. I did not 
 think any of those things. 
 
 Q. It is the habit, is it not, in your county, to call the prosecuting 
 attorney in when a crime is contemplated?—A. I do not think this is a 
 Democratic crime, or that my being a Democratic prosecuting attorney 
 had anything to do with my going there that night. 
 
 Q. Now you have said that you were invited to go there, and then 
 you have said that you were not; which shall I believe ?—A. I said no 
 such thing. I said I saw a man named Wilson, who was near the foot 
 of the stairs. I do not know whether he was the party or not; but 
 when I asked what was going on he said to go upstairs. I did not con¬ 
 sider that as an invitation, but simply a notice that if I was curious 
 about it I could go and find out for myself. 
 
 Q. You saw him there?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And he told you to go upstairs?—A. Yes, sir. I said I saw him 
 there, but I did not say he went upstairs. 
 
 Q. Why did he invite you up?—A. I have no impression about that, 
 because he did not invite me up. 
 
 Q. Well, think about it.—A. It requires no thought, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you no impression on the subject?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When you came down after seeing what was going on, did you 
 have any impression about it?—A. I did uot think of it. 
 
 Q. Did you see him up there?—A. 1 never said he was up there. 
 
 Q. Then am I to understand that you were ordered up there?—A. I 
 was not oidered up there. I have said to you a dozen times almost, and 
 I repeat it, that I met William Wilson at the foot of the stairs, and I 
 asked what was going on upstairs, and he told me to go upstairs and 
 see. 
 
 Q. What did you consider that to be ?—A. I told you the facts, and 
 you can draw your own conclusions. 
 
 Q. Then I draw the conclusion that it was not an order to you ; am I 
 right?—A. I give you the facts, and you can digest them as you please. 
 
 Q. You found your way up there at somebody’s suggestion ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. I have told you that twelve or fifteen times. 
 
 Q. Are you sure it is twelve or fifteen times?—A. To the best of my 
 recollection it has been that many. 
 
 Q. And you swear it?—A. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection. 
 
 Q. And you made no inquiry about the mob, except to the men who 
 were engaged in it ?—A. I stated so, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 273 
 
 Q. Who were those resolutions passed by ? Were they citizens of 
 Shelbyville?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were they—the resolutions, I mean ?—A. I think they were 
 to the effect that while they recognized the right of colored emigrants 
 to emigrate to Shelbyville or Shelby County for legitimate purposes, 
 they believed these half starved, deluded, and unfortunate wretches were 
 brought into the State for political purposes; that they were deceived, 
 and that it was the duty of every good citizen to advise them and get 
 them to return. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy of those resolutions ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That was a sort of Democratic arrangement that passed those 
 resolutions?—A. Well, sir, by way of parenthesis, it was. 
 
 Q. What does the Democratic party think about it ?—A. They think 
 it is wise to make these people understand that the Republican party 
 are using them as though they were cattle or hogs driven about for po¬ 
 litical purposes. 
 
 Q. That was the opinion of that caucus, was it?—A. That was the 
 spirit of the resolution. 
 
 Q. What was that resolution of theirs about the penalty ?—A. That 
 they deemed it the duty of the officers of the county to investigate the 
 matter and take proper steps to punish such persons, either foreign or 
 local, whom it might be found were engaged in importing these people 
 into our county. 
 
 Q. Tell me what evidence you have that the Republican party was 
 doing this?—A. I do not profess to give the evidence. 
 
 Q. You have not any?—A. I think it is a logical deduction from the 
 facts, which you might make as well as T. 
 
 Q. What are the facts from which you deduce it?—A. Well, sir, here 
 are poor people without money to pay their way to the North, and who 
 know the people they live among, and have plenty of work to do there, 
 are in a climate adapted to them and to their natures, who are "going 
 into a State where there is no work for them, where the people do not 
 understand them, where the climate is poor for them, and the wages 
 are not so good as in the South; therefore I think it is an unreasonable 
 thing that they should be emigrating in that way unless somebody was 
 assisting them ; therefore, as the Democrats will not assist them, and as 
 the Republicans need them, I make the deduction that the Republican 
 party is at the bottom of the movement. 
 
 Q. Do the Democrats have any sympathy with the negro in your 
 State?—A. I think quite as much as the Republicans, except in the 
 matter of their votes. 
 
 Q. Your party, you think, has as much sympathy with them and are 
 as good friends to the negroes as the Republicans ?—A. I think the 
 Democrats of my State have as much sympathy with them as the Re¬ 
 publicans, and employ as many of them, and pay them as well, and all 
 that. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any Republican by name who has been engaged 
 in bringing these people there?—A. 1 do not. 
 
 Q. You do not know of one?—A. No, sir; only by these indefinite, 
 floating rumors. 
 
 Q. Why, then, do you charge it on them?—A. I believe I gave you 
 my reasons a moment since. 
 
 Q. I believe you did not; and you have no reason therefor?—A. Per¬ 
 son ally I have not. 
 
 Q. Have you heard anybody else state that they were doing it ?—A. 
 
 • Yes, sir. 
 
 18 EX 
 
274 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What investigation did you make of it ?—A. I made no extensive 
 investigation of it. 
 
 Q. Have von made anv ?—A. I do not know that I have. 
 
 Q. Do you know why, if the Democrats are so dead sure that the Re¬ 
 publicans have so imported these negroes, and are doing it, they, the 
 Democrats, do not avail themselves of the penalties of the law ?—A. 
 Well, sir, the rascals who are doing it, if any there are, have been so 
 successful in coveting up their tracks that we cannot find them out. 
 
 Q. You cannot find them out?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And yet you charge it on the Republican party ?—A. I think it is 
 their work to a moral certainty. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is a moral certainty that seven or six men were 
 brought in there by the Republican party.to vote, encumbered with 26 
 women and children ?—A. I think that might be done if others were ex¬ 
 pected ; and these families had come ahead in order to gain a residence for 
 them. 
 
 Q. Do you know that to be a fact from anything they have said ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or from what anybody else had said ?—A. No, sir ; I do not know 
 as 1 do. 
 
 Q. The first batch you say were 26 in number ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there were about six men among them?—A. Six or seven. 
 
 Q. Did your Democratic party come to the conclusion that these six 
 men w ere going to overslaugh you, and that the Republican party brought 
 these people there simply that these six or seven men might vote ?—A. 
 My impression was that they were simply a starter, and were to feel the 
 pulse of the people out there. 
 
 Q. Did you get frightened at their coming?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you get disgusted at their coming ?—A. 1 do not know as I 
 did. 
 
 Q. Do you really think if they were importing voters to carry the State 
 that that might be the way for the Republican party to do it?—A. I 
 thought it might be done that way. 
 
 Q. You think it is reasonable?—A. Y r es, sir, I do. 
 
 Q. You think it is reasonable that any party would bring 26 women 
 and children half way across the continent in order to get six votes?— 
 A. No, sir ; I don’t think you have any right to draw that deduction 
 from anything that I have said. I said I thought that they brought 
 these people there and put them off to feel the public pulse. 
 
 Q. How did you get that impression?—A. It was in my own mind. 
 
 Q. Y"ou had not heard, had you, that any more were coming ?—A. 
 Y"es, sir; for it had been preached tin-re since 1876. 
 
 Q. Who by; the Democrats?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Principally by Mr. Hendricks?—A. Yes, sir; and he is a very re¬ 
 spectable man. 
 
 Q. It was used, theu, as a political argument by your party ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And when 26 women and children aud six men came, you thought 
 it was going to be the commencement of the avalanche?—A. No, sir; 
 but I heaul of a number of others who were settling in other parts of 
 the State. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say you have a penalty of $500 for bringing paupers into the 
 State?—A. Yes, sir; for settling paupers in the State. 
 
 Q. Do you know that these were paupers ?—A. They are generally 
 understood to be. I took it to be so from the reports. 
 
 Q. Ho you know of any effort having been made anywhere in your 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 275 
 
 State to fix: this sentence upon any party in the State ?—A. Well, sir; 
 the experience I have had, which I hive detailed, will suffice to auswer 
 yon as to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. You told Mr. Voorhees that an effort was made in your county?— 
 A. 1 stated, sir, that in Shelby County the grand jury caused two of these 
 men to be brought before them, and their sworn testimony was given 
 as to who brought them, and what they had experienced. 
 
 Q. Did you find out who brought them?—A. No, sir; I found out 
 nothing of the motives of the parties who were bringing them through 
 the country and seeing them at the depots. 
 
 Q. Did you learn anything going to show that the Republican party 
 had anything to do with it ?—A. I learned that Sam Perry and Williams 
 were going through the South, and doing this thing by speeches and 
 misrepresentations to the colored people. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of anybody in Indiana who was instigating it ?—A. 
 No, sir; I heard the witness state that he understood that they were to 
 be received there by somebody, but he did not know of anybody who 
 was to do it. 
 
 Q. Do you think that if the Republicans were engineering this move¬ 
 ment it could be found out by a grand jury ?—A. I do not think so. 
 
 Q. But it is a difficult crime to prove ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They would have to have money, would they not, to bring these 
 people there ?—A. \ r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not you think that if money was furnished for that purpose, 
 you could fiud it out?—A. 1 think not, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose this was a conspiracy to pass counterfeit money or a con¬ 
 spiracy to steal horses, instead of to bring colored voters to Indiana; 
 what do you think then ?—A. I tliiuk the same, for I know many mur¬ 
 ders have been committed, and the perpetrators never found out. I 
 know that at the time our grand jury investigated it they could get no 
 evidence on which to base an indictment. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of any more efforts in that line?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that you can find out who of the Republicans are 
 doing this?—A. Well, Senator, if you cau assist me, I would like very 
 much to rattle some of them. 
 
 Q. Awhile ago you used language of this sort: that you did not want 
 to insist very much on your denial that you were in that mob, as you 
 were a Democrat; what do you mean by that?—A. I wanted to state 
 that I was not taking very active steps to disprove that I was with the 
 mob, as stated by the Republican papers. They stated that I was with 
 Judge Ord and Cflessner and others, and that we were present with the 
 mob, and encouraging it. I want to state that I was not with it; I do 
 not want the statement of these false reports to be taken as evidence 
 against me here. 
 
 Q. And you said you were a Democrat ?—A. Yes, sir; I do not take 
 particular pains to deny it. For political reasons it did not make any 
 difference to me, but for moral reasons it might. 
 
 Q. Is that the style in Indiana, that a prosecuting officer does not 
 care to deny that he was in a mob?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do your county officers generally feel that way ?—A. I do not 
 know, sir. 
 
 Q. You said you had not seen any Republican papers that opposed 
 this exodus?—A. No, sir; and I do not say that I have seen any that 
 favored it. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any Republican or Democratic paper that is op¬ 
 posed to the emigration of any people other than these North Carolina 
 
276 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 negroes ?—A. Yes, sir; inasmuch as I have seen numbers of them that 
 opposed the immigration of Chinese. 
 
 Q. Do not the Ifepublican papers feel and hold that anybody should 
 be permitted to come there and make it their home ?—A. I think I have 
 seen editorials in some of them against men coming there who are un¬ 
 able to take care of themselves, and I do not know of any efforts to 
 bring them there. 
 
 Q. Can you advise the suffering Irish people to come there ?—A. I do 
 not know as I could answer, except to say that the demand in Indiana 
 for labor is supplied. 
 
 Q. You do not think it best for them to come there?—xY I do not 
 tliiilk it best for them. 
 
 Q. Then that is one State that is not an asylum for the oppressed ?— 
 A. I do not know as to the sentiment of the State; I speak for myself. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You knew of no mob iu Shelbyville, and you knew that as well as 
 anybody could know it ?—A. I know the report about the mobs there 
 were gross exaggerations. 
 
 Q. You satisfied yourself that no violence was committed ?—A. Yes 2 
 sir. 
 
 Q. The prosecuting officer in Indiana is.not a peace officer?—xY No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. He has no power to arrest anybody ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor to command the peace?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But only to prosecute complaints that are lodged with him ?—A. 
 That is where his duty commences. 
 
 Q. You simply heard that some men were trying to prevent these 
 paupers coming into the county. Do you think it a crime for a man 
 to try to prevent the commission of another crime?—A. No, sir ; I do not 
 think it was any crime technically. In the other case I know of no 
 statute iu the State to punish these men for what they were doing. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. It seems that you now remember something else; these men said, 
 as you remembered, something about paupers?—A. No, sir; I refer 
 you to the statement I made. 
 
 Q. Did you hear them say that?—A. I did not hear the word “ pau¬ 
 pers ” used ; they were going to tell the damned niggers not to get off*. 
 
 Q. It was ‘‘damned niggers” that you heard?—A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. When they got off' they proved to be paupers, and the mayor 
 made a proclamation to that effect?—A. No; you forget the time, Sen¬ 
 ator. It was in December when the paupers came there, and the proc¬ 
 lamation was made when there was information of another car-load com¬ 
 ing, and that was the time that these men said they were going to tell 
 the damned niggers not to get off. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. What became of the paupers ?—A. I understand that IS or 20 of 
 them are down below town in a hovel, suffering from cold and hunger, 
 but I do not know anything about it myself. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 277 
 
 TESTIMONY" OF MILTON M. HOLLAND. 
 
 Milton M. Holland sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Question. You are a member of this local organization called the Em¬ 
 igrant Aid Society ?—Answer. I am. 
 
 Q. What do you know of it as a political organization, if you know 
 anything about that?—-A. The organization was formed about the 20th 
 of March, four or five days after the lot of emigrants was reported in 
 a destitute condition at Saint Louis, Missouri. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. That was last March, about a year ago !—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Tell us what the objects of the organization were ?—A. They were 
 purely charitable—to aid these people. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any steps ever having been taken in any way what¬ 
 ever to induce men to go to any State or Territory for political pur¬ 
 poses?—A. No, sir. I wish to say right here that that question may 
 be settled at once so far as our organization is concerned. We have 
 sent sixty odd of these people to Ohio. In December there were four 
 men, full-grown men, who had got tickets to Indianapolis, Iudiana, and 
 they had reached the depot here, and iu conversing with them they said 
 that they desired to go to Gallia County, Ohio. Mr. Freeman asked me 
 what should be done in the matter, and I said, “ Let them exchange 
 their tickets, and let them go where they want to.” And we kept them 
 here until Mr. Freeman could get their tickets exchanged, and they got 
 tickets to Indianapolis. Our society has nothing to do with any politi¬ 
 cal organization whatever. It has nothing to do with politics. Mr. 
 Perry or Mr. Williams are neither of them agents of the Emigration 
 Society. We have no agents of any kind. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any ?—A. Never. 
 
 Q. Have you ever done anything in any way, manner, or form, as a 
 society, to encourage people to leave this State?—A. No, sir; but we 
 sympathize with them. 
 
 Q. Of course you do. But the society was organized, as I understand 
 you, solely with reference to the emigration from the States of Louisiana 
 and Mississippi, and with reference,to helpiug the people who had gone 
 to Kansas ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State any efforts you ever made to divert them from Kansas to 
 any other place.—A. I never made any. I have sent some to Ohio, to 
 Gallia County, to Athens County, and to Glen wood, West Virginia, and 
 to Parkersburg, West Virginia. 
 
 Q. How did you happen to send them there?—A. Because they were 
 here and a gentleman who was on here wanted them to go, and some 
 preferred to go there because others had gone there iu July and had 
 written back to them that they had done well. 
 
 Q. In these localities ?—A. A r es, sir. When I was there in Ohio—I had 
 my leave of absence last fall—I met—let me see ; I have got a paper 
 here—three men and two boys, good-sized boys, who went there from 
 here on the 18th of July. We helped them to get situations, aud they 
 were doing well at Gallia County, Ohio—at Harrisburg. 
 
 Q. And you understood that they had written back to these people ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. In October there was another lot went to Gallia County, 
 Ohio. 
 
278 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHEKN STATES. 
 
 Q. Ilow was this money raised with which you helped these people ? 
 —A. We begged it from charitably disposed persons—from the churches. 
 And I wish to say here this about the, Republican party : I have a good 
 deal of fault to find with that party, and in this way, that if this had 
 been a political movement none of them have ever given anything, and 
 I feel very hard about certain cabinet officers who gave $50 to the Irish 
 relief fund when they would not give us a penny. I do not know, how 
 ever, that they were asked for it, but they knew that these people were 
 here and needed help. 
 
 Q. Well, from what you have heard of the condition of the people in 
 the Southern States, in Mississippi, Louisiana, &c., what was your opin¬ 
 ion as to how they could better their condition by going to Kansas or 
 anywhere else?—A. My opinion was, and still is, that these people there 
 in Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, or North Carolina, can better 
 their condition in Indiana. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion still on that subject?—A. Well, sir, from 
 the testimony given here, I have been continued in that opinion, and 
 I think I shall work with a great deal more enthusiasm in this move¬ 
 ment than ever before. 
 
 Q. In the discussions that have taken place in your society, has there 
 ever been any resolution or act or anything done which would commit 
 it in any way to the favor of any political movement whatever ?—A. 
 No, sir. I said in a public meeting here—and I suppose that is what 
 has caused a good deal of talk about this being a political movement— 
 that if the Democratic party pursues this course I should be in favor of 
 taking every man south of Mason and Dixon’s line and sending him oft 
 to the North. 
 
 Q. What for; for political purposes?—A. No, sir; but that they 
 might have their rights. I lived in Ohio, near the Indiana line, and I 
 knew that it had always been considered a bad State; that is, it had a 
 bad record during the war. I believed and I thought that the influence 
 of'the Republican States of Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois had materially 
 changed their sentiments against the colored people since the waiybut 
 I never did favor their going to Indiana. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. You say you never favored their going to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you mean, then, by saying a moment ago that they would 
 better their condition in Indiana?—A. I believed then, and I believe 
 now, that their condition would be better in Indiana than in the South¬ 
 ern States. 
 
 Q. What did you mean to say, then ?—A. Well, I believed or thought 
 that there would be enough good Republican men in the State of In¬ 
 diana to protect them in their rights. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by saying that you never favored their going 
 to Indiana ?—A. I never urged them to go there ; I preferred their going 
 to Ohio, to Illinois, to Michigan, or Kansas and Nebraska, or any other 
 State that you could mention in preference to that. As I said, I had 
 heard and knew that Indiana was a pretty hard State; that is, it was 
 during the war. 
 
 Q. Where do you live ?—A. In Columbus, Ohio. 
 
 Q. What do you do there ?—A. I am not living there now. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by saying that you live there and that you 
 do not live there ? I asked where you lived and you said Columbus, 
 Ohio, and in the next breath you say you do not live there.—A. Sena¬ 
 tor Voorhees, don’t you know that I am in the goverment employ merit 
 here ? 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 279 
 
 The Chairman. I do not. 
 
 The Witness. Well, you seemed to fiud me. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know that you are a man of so much conse¬ 
 quence that 1 should know that you were in the government employ. 
 The Witness. Of course not. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What position do you hold!—A. Second class clerk in one of the 
 departments. 
 
 Q. In what department !—A. In the Bureau of Internal Revenue, law 
 division. 
 
 Q. Yes ; and you say do not live in Columbus; where do you live!— 
 A. Here, now. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here!—A. Ten years and a little over. 
 
 Q. Did you ever live in Indiana!—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were yon ever in Indiana!—A. I might say that I was. I was in 
 Harris—I think it is—part of it is on one side and part on the other of 
 
 the State line. 
 
 Q. I do not know any such place.—A. There is such a place. 
 
 Q. What part of Indiana did you live in!—A. Just across the line. 
 
 Q. Yes; and you had always heard in regard to Indiana that it was a 
 pretty hard place on colored people!—A. Yes, sir: that is what I have 
 heard. 
 
 Q. Still you think that after hearing what you have heard from these 
 witnesses from North Carolina that you would work more enthusiasti¬ 
 cally to get the people from the South to Indiana than ever before !— 
 A. I did not say from the South. 
 
 Q. You named the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, 
 
 and North Carolina.— A. I did not say that I would work more en¬ 
 thusiastically to get them into Indiana. 
 
 Q. What did you say ?—A. I said I should prefer their going to In¬ 
 diana, bad as it is, rather than to have them stay in these States. 
 
 Q. You think that Indiana affords better inducements to the colored 
 people than North Carolina !—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of a negro in Indiana who owns a thousand 
 acres of land!—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. No; and you did not know how the colored people were treated 
 there ; did you ever hear of a negro serving on a jury in Indiana!—A. 
 No ; 1 never did. 
 
 Q. Did you know of a canal commissioner in Indiana belonging to 
 your race—the only office-holder of your race there!—A. That is one; 
 I do not care so much about these officers. 
 
 Q. No; being an officer yourself, I do not suppose you do. Did you 
 ever hear tell of the Republican party in Indiana giving to the colored 
 man an office, other than that which Colonel Hintou had as canal com-' 
 missioner !—A. I have heard of Walker being mail agent. 
 
 Q. That was, he carried the mail from the Federal office to the depot. 
 You never knew of one in the Federal legislature!—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There never was but one in the legislature of Ohio till this winter ! 
 —A. No; but we are going to have more. Ohio is coming around, and 
 as civilization extends I hope it will extend over into Indiana; I think 
 it will. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of the fact that a colored legislator sued some 
 hotel or restaurant-keeper for not letting him sit down at the table!— 
 A. I did not know that he was sued; but I did not approve of Mr. 
 Williams’ going there if they did not want to entertain him. 
 
280 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You have, then, no political feeling yourself, have you !—A. None 
 whatever; except this, that I want to get these people out from what I 
 believe to be the oppression of the South. 
 
 Q. You think they are terribly oppressed in North Carolina ?—A. I 
 do think so. When a man has to live on three pounds of bacon and a 
 peck of meal per week I think he is considerably oppressed. 
 
 Q. There has been no proof of that kind.—A. That is the testimony, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. From whom l —A. Your minutes will show—three pounds of bacon 
 and a peck of meal a week. 
 
 Senator Vance. I do not think that that was testified to. It was 
 ten dollars a mouth and three pounds of bacon and a peck of meal. 
 
 The Chairman. The ten dollars a month escaped your notice; you 
 could not remember that. 
 
 Senator Windom. It was six dollars a month in some cases. 
 
 The Witness. I know at any rate that Mr. Kelley—mau cannot live 
 on the wages he was getting. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Well, you say that you think the colored people are greatly op¬ 
 pressed in North Carolina, and that they would do better in Indiana !— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that there is nothing political in this movement of yours at 
 all !—A. Nothing political at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is all. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL L. PERRY. 
 
 Samuel L. Perry sworn and examined. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Question. Give us your full name, please.—Answer. Samuel L. Perry. 
 
 Q. Where do you reside now !—A. 1 am here now temporarily on Wil¬ 
 son street, Washington City. 
 
 Q. Where has your home been for several years past !—A. In North 
 Carolina, sir. 
 
 Q. What part of North Carolina!—A. Originally in Chatham, but 
 for the last ten or thirteen years I have been living in Lenoir County. 
 
 Q. How far is that from Goldsborough !—A. Thirteen of fourteen 
 miles by rail. 
 
 Q. You have heard a good deal of this testimony with reference to this 
 exodus from North Carolina. Now begin at the beginning and tell us 
 all you know about it.—A. Well, the beginning, I suppose, was in this 
 way : The first idea or the first thing was, we used to have little meet¬ 
 ings, to talk over these matters. In 1872 we first received some circu¬ 
 lars or pamphlets from O. F. Davis, of Omaha, Nebraska. 
 
 Q. In 1872!—A. Yes, sir; in 1872—giving a description of govern¬ 
 ment lands and railroads that could begot cheap; and we held little 
 meetings then; that is, we would meet and talk about it Sunday even¬ 
 ings—that is, the laboring class of our people—the only ones I knew 
 anything about; I had not much to do with the big professional negroes, 
 the rich men. I did not associate with them much, but I got among 
 the workingmen, and they would take these pamphlets and read them 
 over. We then thought that if we could get out West somewhere we 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 281 
 
 would go in a colony ; but after a while we let it all die out; and in IS70 
 it sprung up again, and we sent a petition to the legislature—to Mr. 
 Williamson, I think. There were a great many signers to that petition, 
 asking to ask Congress to set us apart a territory in the West. That 
 was in 1870, but afterwards they gave us some schools and one thing or 
 another, and we all got satisfied ; that is the college you hear so much 
 talk about and the asylum. Well, that died out; but to come down now 
 to the fall before this last- 
 
 Q. You mean the fall of 1878 ?—A. Well, I was going to say that the 
 fall before last the crop was short or something or other, and there was 
 a terrible cleaning up of the colored people; sometimes two or three 
 wagons would be at one maids house—white people as well as colored 
 people—and they would talk of what they would do under the mortgage 
 system. And these complaints came up again. They wanted to go 
 away. About that time I was a subscriber to the New York Herald, 
 and from au article the report was that the people were going to Kan¬ 
 sas; we thought we could go to Kansas; that we could get a colony to 
 go with us. That waslast spring. We came together and formed our¬ 
 selves into a colony of some hundred men ; that was all we was to have. 
 It was not to be considered an exodus ; we did not use the word emigra¬ 
 tion. There was only a hundred of us, and I have the original petition. 
 I have got it here. We thought we could probably go North somewhere 
 and find somebody that would stand behind us with money enough to 
 keep us up. 
 
 Q. If you have that petition, let us have it.—A. We started with one 
 hundred, but afterwards they sent sixty-eight more to us. 
 
 Q. Just get us that petition and read it. 
 
 The Witness [producing a paper[. It was addressed to the National 
 Emigrant Aid Society, and is as follows: 
 
 To the National Emigration Aid Society: 
 
 We, the undersigned colored people of the second Congressional district of North 
 Carolina, having labored hard for several years, under disadvantages over which 
 avc had no control, to elevate ourselves to a higher plane of Christian civiliza¬ 
 tion ; and whereas, our progress has been so retarded as to nearly nullify all our efforts, 
 after dispassionate and calm consideration, our deliberate conviction is, that emigra¬ 
 tion is the only way in which we can elevate ourselves to a higher plane of true citi¬ 
 zenship. 
 
 As our means are insufficient to emigrate without the aid of friends, we therefore 
 petition your honorable body, through our worthy agents Samuel L. Perry and Peter 
 C. Williams, for aid to emigrate to some of the Western States or Territories. 
 
 Aud we furthermore agree to be bound by any contract that they may enter into in 
 their efforts to secure aid for our transportation and settlement; aud your petitioners 
 will ever pray. 
 
 1 Redrick Hood. 20 
 
 2 J. H. Wooten. 21 
 
 3 Jesse Wooten. 22 
 
 4 Thomas Hill. 23 
 
 5 Henderson Washington. 24 
 
 7 Lewis Flemings. 25 
 
 8 Orlando Marrca. 26 
 
 9 Henry Wooten. 27 
 
 10 Henry Hardy. 28 
 
 11 Robert Wooten. 29 
 
 12 Haywood Edward. 30 
 
 13 Bennett Haywood. 31 
 
 14 Wright Parks. 32 
 
 15 Aden Smith. * 33 
 
 16 Raleigh Wooten. 34 
 
 17 Elias Simmons. 35 
 
 IS Shade Simmons. 36 
 
 19 Oscar Jones. 37 
 
 Moses Stubbs. 
 
 Charley Stubbs. 
 Theodore Washington. 
 Simon Wooten. 
 
 Daniel Maboru. 
 
 Daniel Blount. 
 
 P. L. Wade. 
 
 Abell Gardner. 
 
 Alfred Mewborn. 
 
 Allen Spright. 
 
 Tally Mewborn. 
 
 Cater Brad berry. 
 Leonard Sherrod. 
 
 J. R. Martaiu. 
 
 Henry Smith. 
 
 Ephraim Jones. 
 
 Hiram Parks. 
 
 Jane Peacock. 
 
 38 Frank Blount. 
 
 39 Delilali Howard. 
 
 40 Geo. Thompson. 
 
 41 Rider Bell. 
 
 42 Caroline Vest. 
 
 43 Mingo Simmons. 
 
 44 Noah Best. 
 
 45 Jacob Bryant. 
 
 46 Eleeh Gray. 
 
 47 William Warterr. 
 
 48 John Blue. 
 
 49 Bryant Harper. 
 
 50 Axum Kennedy. 
 
 51 Caleb Vaugbnee. 
 
 52 Samuel Miller. 
 
 53 Sarah Williams. 
 
 54 Thomas Gregory. 
 
 55 John Taylor. 
 
282 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 56 Joseph Anderson. 
 
 57 Spence Edwards. 
 
 58 Wm. Wooten. 
 
 59 Cicero Wooten. 
 
 60 Homer Borden. 
 
 61 R. T. Jones. 
 
 62 Spence Herring. 
 69 S. J. Dixon. 
 
 64 Julia Hill. 
 
 65 Hi ram Joyner. 
 
 66 William Lynch. 
 
 67 Lewis Anderson* 
 
 68 Harkless Fuller. 
 
 69 Jeck Kennedy. 
 
 70 Solomon Wooten. 
 
 71 Henry Barbee. 
 
 72 Gabe McMemitt. 
 
 73 Haywood Jones. 
 
 74 Leah Best. 
 
 75 Abner Whitney. 
 
 76 Luke Parks. 
 
 77 Jane Bryant. 
 
 78 James Palmer. 
 
 79 Irwin Simmons. 
 
 80 John Sutton. 
 
 81 Frank Taylor. 
 
 82 Geo. Hood. 
 
 83 Rufus Hood. 
 
 84.A. P. Williams. 
 
 A 
 
 85 Barney Dawson. 
 
 86 David Binghams. 
 
 87 James Darden. 
 
 88 Gilbert Hood. 
 
 89 Bryant Best. 
 
 90 Bryant Parks. 
 
 91 Jon. Gatlin. 
 
 92 Henry German. 
 
 93 Kisiah Smith. 
 
 94 Wright Rouse. 
 
 95 Morning Mosely. 
 
 96 Peter Fuller. 
 
 97 William Wooten. 
 
 98 David Best. 
 
 99 A. E. Perry. 
 
 100 J. C. Wooten. 
 
 101 Adlas Mitchener. 
 
 102 Marv Sutton. 
 
 103 B. II. Herring. 
 
 104 W. A. Chambers. 
 
 105 Geo. Conley. 
 
 106 Daniel Lottin. 
 
 107 Henry Thompson. 
 
 108 Jack Smith. 
 
 109 Levi Edmonson. 
 
 110 Caleb Sutton. 
 
 111 Tobias Williams. 
 
 112 Limbrich Lassetter. 
 
 113 Jordan Wooten. 
 
 114 Joseph Ford. 
 
 115 C. R. Perry. 
 
 116 Raleigh Me whom. 
 
 117 Jack Smith. 
 
 118 Patrick Joiner. 
 
 119 Joseph Goodin. 
 
 120 Sanders Jones. 
 
 121 Henry Gatlin. 
 
 122 Biddle Stroude. 
 
 123 Alexander Joiner. 
 
 124 Peter Reid. 
 
 12b Stephen Wadkins. 
 
 126 Franklin Jones. 
 
 127 Robert Garrett. 
 
 128 Benj. Stanley. 
 
 129 Francis Adams. 
 
 130 Williams Reid. 
 
 131 David Johnson. 
 
 132 Richards Wooten 
 
 133 Cesar Dawson. 
 
 134 Wright Dawson. 
 
 135 Samuel Waters. 
 
 136 Henry Dawson. 
 
 137 Reuben Atmore. 
 
 138 Willis Wooten. 
 
 139 Jerry Williams. 
 
 140 Frank Blount. 
 
 141 Henry Smitu. 
 
 142 George Smith. 
 
 143 James Mathis. 
 
 144 C. J. Joiner. 
 
 145 Frank Miller. 
 
 146 Bright Joiner. 
 
 147 Daniel Wo.ten. 
 
 148 Jas. Copse. 
 
 149 C. B. Waters. 
 
 150 Emily Jones. 
 
 151 Annie Dawson. 
 
 15)2 Madison Lane. 
 
 153 Sam Thomas. 
 
 154 Simon Dancy. 
 
 155 Mary Shepherd. 
 
 156 Abraham Boyd. 
 
 157 Henry Cushin. 
 
 158 P. R. Pittman. 
 
 159 Willis Statin. 
 
 160 Joseph Ellis. 
 
 161 Robert Harper. 
 
 162 Raford Staton. 
 
 163 William Croom. 
 
 164 Chester Nicholson. 
 
 165 Arnold Murphy. 
 
 166 Solomon Wooten. 
 
 167 Allan Davis. 
 
 168 James Taylor. 
 
 Q. This is signed by how many ?—A. It was signed by oue hundred 
 at first, but after we came here they sent us sixty eight names more. 
 That was this colony there which was added to the hundred. Well, 
 we organized as I said. We had a little colony there. I think it was 
 in April, probably, and the day afterwards we agreed to make up the 
 colony. They said if Peter O. Williams and myself would go West, 
 either to Kansas or Southern Nebraska or Colorado—if we would go 
 West that they would pay our expenses there and back. 
 
 Q. Who said that °! —A. This was the resolution iu the meeting of the 
 colony in North Carolina. That was the understanding, that we were to 
 go and look out a location, get a section of laud if possible, and if we 
 could get anybody to stand behind us and assist us—to advance the 
 means to live until we could make a farm—we would go. And that is 
 the money you hear so much talking about. They did give twenty-five 
 cents apiece, some of them, and made up $54 in all; that is all we 
 ever got to go to Kansas with. I have the names of all who paid the 
 money. That was to be the colony; it had nothing to do with the 
 wholesale exodus, although I do not say that I opposed the exodus, but 
 so far as our little colony was concerned we did not represent all the 
 people of North Carolina, only ourselves. We left on the 15th of Sep¬ 
 tember and came on and presented that petition to this society here, 
 the National Emigrant Aid Society, as we understood it, and they told 
 us they didn’t have any money, and they couldn’t do anything for us, 
 and we staid here, I think, thirteen days. 
 
 Q. By “ we” you mean yourself and Williams?—A. Yes, sir ; myself 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 283 
 
 and Williams. We staid here about thirteen days, 1 think it was; and in 
 the meantime we was waiting for money from home. We only left there 
 with $28; I think that was what we both had to go to Kansas with. 
 But the understanding was we was to come here and see if we could 
 get from here, and while we were ’tending to that they would make up 
 some money and send it on to us. But we failed to get aid here. 
 
 Q. They did not furnish you with any money to go ou there?—A. 
 No, sir; not any at all; they met and talked about it, but they never 
 done anything. 
 
 Q. Well, you and Williams were on your way to Kansas?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; on our way to Kansas. We kuew nothing of any other State. 
 
 Q. Did you get money finally from any one ?—A. We got money from 
 AJi*. Galvin, treasurer of a church here. 
 
 Q. You mean to go West?—A. Y r es, sir; to go away; the under¬ 
 standing was that we could get to Russell, in Kansas; that was the point 
 we started to from here. 
 
 Q. What did you do after you got that money ?—A. We went direct 
 to Indianapolis from here. We had a letter of introduction to Dr. 
 Elbert, a colored man there, a physician. I think we got there Sunday 
 night. He carried us around to Elder Broiles, a colored man, and min¬ 
 ister of the Second Baptist Church. We went there and staid proba¬ 
 bly eight days. The next morning I think Dr. Elbert or Elder Broiles—- 
 we went down to the Journal office and saw Mr. Martiudale there, but 
 did not have any talk with him. 
 
 Q. You didn’t have any talk with Mr. Martindale?—A. No, sir. I 
 saw, too, Mr. Cobb, I think, the commercial editor of the Journal, I 
 think he was, and sent for Colonel Straight or told us that we would 
 meet Colonel Straight at some time, as he was saying something about 
 hunting up some hands and probably as he was a large landowner that 
 he could settle the whole colony and furnish means to supply them. 
 We went to see Colonel Straight; I don’t know whether we went that 
 day or not, and he said that he could not do much for us. 
 
 Q. Does Colouel Straight live in Indiauapolis ?—A. He has a lumber¬ 
 yard near the railroad. 
 
 Q. And he said he could not do anything for you ?—A. He could not 
 do it; he could not take so heavy a responsibility, or something of that 
 kind. We afterwards saw Colonel Holloway. 
 
 Q. Well, what did he say ?—A. He could not do it, and we saw Colo¬ 
 uel Dudley. In the meantime Williams had no money at all, and we 
 wanted to go further west. After seeing Colonel Nixon and Dudley aud 
 Holloway, and we saw this man Mills that was here the other day, we 
 went to Elder Broiles and asked him to let us have his church to lec¬ 
 ture in and raise some money. He did, and we took in $1.10. Mills 
 told us that he could not furnish us tickets at less than $32 to Topeka, 
 Kansas. It took all we could get to go to Greencastle, ludiana. 
 
 Q. What did you go to Greencastle for?—A. We had a letter there 
 to John H. Clay, the man who scut these circulars, so we went over 
 there. No, we saw Mr. Langsdale and we had a letter to him too from 
 Mr. Nixon ; they called him Colouel Nixon ; I do not know what else his 
 name is. Then we saw this gentleman, Mr. Clay, and went up to his 
 house, and they told us that they could find homes for the people there. 
 They told us so in Indianapolis, too, and they told us it was no use going 
 to Kansas and Colorado; they told us that in Indianapolis, but we 
 thought it would not suit our people and we did not want to stop there, 
 because these people that we represented wanted to farm and not to 
 hire out, and we knew it, and we was still trying to get west. These 
 
284 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 people in Indianapolis told us that we could find work and get good 
 wages, but we did not know, and we understood when we left home that 
 we did not think the people would be willing to put up with hiring out. 
 At Greencastle Mr. Clay and Jones, Hawthorne, the leading men there, 
 all told us that they came from the South and owned property and things 
 looked splendidly, and they told us they were getting good wages, and 
 they told us what pay they was getting; so we staid a night and part of 
 a day talking with these men ; then they gave us these circulars. Still 
 we asked Mr. Clay if we could call a meeting and see if we could not 
 raise money in his church ; said he, u What for % v said I, “ To go West,” 
 and he said that we could not raise any money. We was near about 
 forced to return, and we came back. There is one fact I want to state, 
 that only forty of the names on that petition has given anything any way, 
 because we did not decide what we was going to do; we did not think 
 they would be satisfied, and in the meantime while we was in Indianapo¬ 
 lis, after I came back from Greencastle, I heard that they was going to 
 arrest or mob me when I got back to North Carolina. I have got three 
 letters now telling me not to go back. I told them I was not harming 
 anybody and was going back, and I went. After I got back there was 
 a camp meeting and we gave out these circulars; I did not know whether 
 the circulars were true or not. It stirred them up. After going back 
 we never made speeches; there were no speeches made. 
 
 Q. Had you ever made any before in opposition to this colonization ? 
 —A. Yes, sir, we did. Williams and myself, wherever we were called 
 upon, before we first came away, we made speeches. I know I did one 
 occasion at the court-house in my county there. I simply reported the 
 products and laws of the State—so far as looking out the laws of other 
 States I had done; but we do think now when I was there all the time 
 meeting the laboring classes—for I never shined around much among 
 those big fellows, though I was around among them at all election times 
 —now we think there, and justly so, that there is different laws on the 
 statute -books from what was there before the war ; they are more severe. 
 We looked at them, and we think they were put there because of the 
 colored people. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. What State are you talking about—North Carolina?—A. Yes; 
 there is one or two laws there—this road law, I hear them talk of 
 that—that caused quite a confusion both among white and colored Dem¬ 
 ocrats and white and colored Republicans, and we all held a meeting and 
 denounced that law. I read at least in one paper, published by a gen¬ 
 tleman there, that all parties denounced it. 
 
 Q. What was there about that law, as you understood it, that oppressed 
 the colored people l —A. Why, every man between the ages of eighteen 
 and forty-five years has to work on the public roads. I think it is not 
 less than ten days, and as many more—I think that is the way it reads 
 —I have not seen it for some time—whenever the overseer calls on him. 
 Well, it has had quite a bad effect on the colored people, to my knowl¬ 
 edge; for instance, right after the crops are done—it is when the mer¬ 
 chant dou’t furnish much to the man who mortgaged his crops,and they 
 generally cut off supplies then—so the man had to knock about to get a 
 living as well as he could. It is about that season of the year that the 
 men are called on to work on the road. Sometimes a man has to work 
 on the road eight or ten days, and he gets no pay and furnishes his own 
 tools and everything; and in my section there mighty near all the peo¬ 
 ple works on the roads—all the colored people. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 285 
 
 Q. Are they not pretty much all colored people in your section ?—A. 
 Yes$ sir ; nearly all. 
 
 Q. While you were on the subject of grievances, just tell us what 
 created the dissatisfaction among the colored people?—A. Well, in this 
 landlord and tenant act—I have heard a good deal of complaint about 
 that; but I think it is generally heard there about political times. At 
 the same time it is right severe, some portion of it. The only thing I 
 could see objectionable in that is that it forbids a man moving any part 
 of the crop till his rent is paid, and it leaves that to the landlord to 
 settle himself; he is the man to say about that as whether advances 
 are made. I do not know whether any other liens would come in ahead 
 of his or not. I have not read the act for some time. Anyhow that is 
 the way we took it—the landlord is the one to decide when his rent is 
 paid or anything else. Another thing that caused unrest among the 
 colored people was that they cannot feel that their former masters will 
 ever recognize them as their equals ; that is another thing. They cannot 
 stand up to a white man and demand their rights, especially from their 
 former masters, and they think, and I do, if we was out in some Terri¬ 
 tory—I don’t mean Indiana—I think it would be different when we can 
 get out and away from our old masters. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard complaints made in courts about that ?—A. 
 O, yes, sir; the courts, so far as a colored man is concerned, I know 
 they are unjust and unfair in some parts of the State. I do not cover 
 all the State. < 
 
 Q. So far as you know, what is the complaint of the colored people as 
 to the couits?—A. Well, 1 know it does not take the same evidence to 
 convict a colored man—that is, as much of it—as to convict a white 
 man ; because I have been on the jury there a number of times, and I 
 know pretty much the way the thing goes on. I was on the jury there 
 last fall in the United States courts, and I have been on a jury in our 
 county court a number of times. Though I will say there is a class of 
 colored people, that is, I mean there are two grades, there are some col¬ 
 ored people if he has got good white friends he will get along all right, 
 but there are few of that kind. These higher classes, that is, not the 
 majority there, it is not the general kind among the colored people. 
 
 Q. Are there any other reasons you can give why the colored people 
 are dissatisfied ?—A. Yes, another reason : Just after the war a good 
 many Northern men stopped down there, and 1 knew of several who 
 used to build up schools—Mr. Ames, for instance, right near where I 
 was—he had on his plantations two colored schools and two churches; 
 it was not his plantation ; he rented it. He had a good many colored 
 people and used to have little meetings for their advancement and so 
 on. And there is another man that stopped down there. I do not 
 know hardly if they claimed violence or not, but it was one thing or 
 another, and before long they left, and they have all gone away. The 
 colored people looked on them as being their friends. Of course they 
 were, because they were running the schools and the churches and paying 
 for it out of their own pocket, and they naturally, you see, have a lik¬ 
 ing for them. 
 
 Q. Hid the colored people have the impression that they were driven 
 out?—A. Yes, sir; we know it in some cases. Adjoining our county 
 Sheriff Cargo was called, and another man there. We know it, though 
 we didn’t run to the politicians and tell them all about it, because we 
 didn’t have much confidence in them ; that’s the fact of the business. 
 And we looked at all these things, and these statutory enactments that 
 seemed more severe than before the war, and we wondered why it is 
 
286 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 that we have been a government so long and they just now began to 
 talk about these benefactors. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in the papers saying that this is a white 
 man’s government, etc. ?—A. Yes; I know another thing—taking away 
 from the people the right to elect county officers, county commissioners, 
 and justices of the peace. All that has been swept away from us under 
 Democratic rule ; that all has added to the dissatisfaction and unrest of 
 our people, because in our county the magistrate there is a man that 
 declares that u a nigger is no more a human being than a horse is a 
 mule.” I know that he advocated that in his paper; I have a copy of 
 it down in my box at Goldsborough. He declares that as a general thing 
 a nigger is not a human being. 
 
 Q. What paper is it ?—A. The La Grange Yidette. It was published 
 in 1875 or 1374, but it was soon suspended. 
 
 Bv the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You say it was soon suspended ?—A. AYs, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Well, he was the magistrate?—A. Yes ; he was appointed magis¬ 
 trate ; of course he could not be elected. 
 
 Q. Who appointed him ?—A. The legislature. The colored people, 
 when that man administered the law, and when he asserts that the 
 negro is not a human being, of course can have no confidence in him. 
 
 Q. Are you positive that he has used that expression ?—A. O, yes, 
 sir; he don’t deny it. 
 
 Q. Did you think that tends to produce confidence on the part of the 
 negro race that they will be fairly treated by him ?—A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. What other papers have used the expression that this is a white 
 man’s government; whatabout the Goldsborough paper?—A. Ihaveseen 
 a good many things in that paper of that kind—it has been so many 
 years ago—it was about the time the civil rights bill was passed; I 
 have not read the papers lately, and I have not seen it in The Messenger 
 or other papers lately as plain as it used to be. 
 
 Q. What is the opinion of the colored people as to whether your 
 people really ought to have the right to vote ?—A. I used to talk a good 
 deal with Democrats—with a number of leading Democrats—and they 
 would tell me this is a white man’s government, and white men ought 
 to rule, and niggers ought not to have a vote. 
 
 Q. I wanted to know what the general feeling is on the subject among 
 the class of colored people you associate with ?—A. Well, that is what 
 we think. Another thing : We know we used to have a good many 
 colored officers down there; since, we have lost all that. We do not 
 think it has been done fairly. Of course we have no idea that it was ; 
 there is some that have a different idea; but we do not believe it was 
 done fair. And we think we used to have in these different States all 
 these colored members we was to have in these different States and do 
 not get them ; all that we think is unfair, and we do not see how we can 
 remedy it by staying there, and we think we ought to get away off in 
 the Territories—away oft in Colorado. 
 
 Q. What do you think the colored people believe will be their treat¬ 
 ment when the Southern States are entirely controlled by the Demo¬ 
 cratic party—-how do you look forward to that event ?—A. I have heard 
 some talk in a different way ; I have hearn some say that they believe 
 the amendments would be repealed aud we would be reduced to a con¬ 
 dition worse than that of slavery; I do not know. Of course we have 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 287 
 
 no confidence in the Democrats. We think if they were to get in power, 
 we claim that the same feeling that was there before the war is there 
 now—that is the way we look at it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How do you account for the fact that it does not express itself as 
 it did then ?—A. We think it has gradually taken hold of the people. 
 
 Q. You say these things in the minds.of the colored people give them 
 the desire to get away ?—A. Yes; the feeling has been, we think, for 
 sometime, though not much is said about it. The Liberia movement 
 in 187G—then everybody was going to Liberia, and that was the time 
 they gave us the schools, and that stopped the movement, butit created a 
 great deal of unrest among the colored people. I was opposed to their 
 going to Liberia, and on that account I had a good many disputes and 
 talks about it; I told them I was opposed to going to any foreign country ; 
 
 I believed we had a right to stay in this country, and I said then let us 
 go West, to Southern Nebraska; that is where I have been wanting to 
 go to, and I expect to keep hanging on to that. 
 
 Q. You heard the testimony of the colored man from North Carolina 
 here ?—A. No, sir. I was not here yesterday. 
 
 Q. Well, tell us what else you did after you went to Indiana.—A. 
 As I started to tell you I received letters that I would be arrested when 
 I got back. I told them O, no. Of course the white people down there 
 I used to have a right good time with them myself; they never treated me 
 bad; I always had fair play. I happened to have right smart due of 
 politics, and could hold up tolerably well among the laboring class of 
 people there, and I didn’t care about the balance of the niggers, those 
 big niggers, so I was getting along. 
 
 Q. You spoke of your ex master. Perry; you would go to your ex¬ 
 master very quickly if you wanted him to do you a favor, would you 
 not?—A. I would, for a favor, yes, that I would. 
 
 Q. Well, he would treat you as kindly as anybody in the world, 
 wouldn’t he, don’t you think?—A. To a certain extent he would, me in 
 the place of a servant and him a master, yes, he would treat me kindly. 
 
 Q. I don’t want to talk of unpleasant things, but a man like you, you 
 don’t fiud social equality any more in Indiaua than you did in North 
 Carolina, do you?—A. No ; and I do uot advise them to go there. 
 
 Q. You never advised them to go there?—A. No, sir; I carried these 
 circulars, but so far as making a speech, I told them what the meu told 
 me, but my knowledge of the State was too sh allow to advise anybody 
 to go there. 
 
 Q. Well, it is your deliberate opinion, taking all things into consider¬ 
 ation—the matters you complain of in North Carolina—that it is not 
 desirable for your race to go from North Carolina to Indiana, is that 
 your opinion ?—A. I wall tell you what I wuote on the loth of Novem¬ 
 ber; I wrote to the old gentleman Bergen that if I owned a lot in In¬ 
 diana and one in hell, I would rent out the one m Indiana and live in 
 hell before I would live there; that is the way I expressed it. 
 
 Q. Y r ou mean that you would seek a tenant for the one in Indiana 
 and rent that, and live yourself in the other one ? 
 
 Senator Vance. Or go into a Republican couutry. 
 
 Q. (By the Chairman.) Are you a preacher?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are a good deal of a talker, though, ain’t you ?—A. O, I used 
 to take a big hand in Southern politics. 
 
 Q. Well, you do it yet when you get a chance, don’t you ?—A. No; 
 when I run this man O’Hara I went out of the business; I paid a man a 
 
288 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 dollar to print me some circulars to say that I sold out all my interest 
 in politics; O’Hara sickened me, and I quit the business. 
 
 Q. So you consider yourself on the retired list as a politician ?—A. 
 Yes, sir, I do. I hare got a piece here taken from a newspaper (open¬ 
 ing a memorandum book and passing it to the chairman.). It is from 
 the New York Herald. 
 
 The Chairman (after examining). Well, they told you in that article 
 to go West and grow up with the country, didn’t they ? I see it don’t 
 point out any particular place J ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the article is calculated to arrest your atten- 
 tion. 
 
 The Witness. We had been making calculations for a long time how 
 much was raised in the West, and how many acres of land; that is, 
 taking the government lands out on the prairies, and we done that all 
 spring. 
 
 Q. Perry, do you know a man named MacMerriek ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where does he live now ?—A. He went to Greencastle first and 
 afterwards came to Shelbyville; at least I saw him there one night. 
 
 Q. I find him reported as saying this to a gentleman out there : “ We 
 were going to Kansas, but circulars were sent from Greencastle, Iud., 
 saying that we could get good houses there, and our delegates, Perry 
 and Williams, both of whom are teachers and preachers, came back to 
 tell us that there were houses here for ten thousand colored people or 
 more.”—A. The circular says that. I tokl you, you got the circular - r 
 that is what it said. I do not vouch for the truth of it. 
 
 Q. They said that your people in Putnam County would furnish them 
 with fifteen or twenty dollars a month, with a cow and calf, a garden, 
 and wood to burn. The circulars that you circulated did state that, did 
 they not ?—A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Perry, as you have such a terrific and brimstone opinion 
 of Indiana, you must have formed some opinion as to whether these 
 glowing and paradise reports in this circular were true or not; what do 
 you think of them ?—A. O, I think it is a little too much. 
 
 Q. You think it is a little too much?—A. YYs, sir; the colors were 
 put on a little too heavy in that circular. I will tell you what my opin¬ 
 ion of that is now. As to knowing whether all this work and prices 
 could be furnished or not I am unable to say, but I think that as the 
 report got out that it was a political thing, &c., and the Democrats 
 were opposing, and it was reported that we was burning property and 
 these houses, that it deterred the people and made them refuse to em¬ 
 ploy these emigrants. 
 
 Q. If you could get a house and a garden, a cow and a calf, and wood 
 to burn, and $15 a month, you would rather live there than in the other 
 country you spoke of a while ago, wouldn’t you ?—A. I did not teli 
 you I believed we would get it. 
 
 Q. I know you did not believe a word of it, and that is what I am 
 trying to get it.—A. I intended to go somewhere in the West myself, 
 and I thought if these things are so, I may stop in Indiana myself, but 
 afterwards hearing of this attack and everything, I said to myself, well, 
 I would not live there for a hundred dollars a day, because I would 
 not feel safe if all these these things be so. If comes to a party question, 
 and two parties are fighting over the colored man, I would not be in the 
 wrangle. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is a sensible remark. [To the witness.] 
 Perry, tell me first time you were ever in Indiana.—A, The first time 
 was October. 
 

 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 28£> 
 
 Q. This last October?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you remain there?—A. Eight or ten days; not over 
 ten days. 
 
 Q. Then where did you go?—A. I said Indiana; I went to Indian¬ 
 apolis, and from there to Greencastle. 
 
 Q. I am not asking you about your movements in the State ; you say 
 you were in Indiana the forepart of October; after .you had been eight 
 or ten days in the State, where did you go ?—A. I never went out of 
 the State; I came back here. 
 
 Q. How longdid you stay there before y t ou came back here?—A. Not 
 over ten days. 
 
 Q. And you came back to Washington ?— A. Yes; I came back on 
 the 17th of October. 
 
 Q. Did you stay here?—A. I went to Baltimore to see Mr. Cole. 
 
 Q. To see about the railroad ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go back to North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the time you were arrested ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How longdid y t ou stay in North Carolina?—A. We stayed there— 
 we left Baltimore on the 20th or 21st, and stayed in North Carolina till 
 the 15th of November. 
 
 Q. Then you came back here ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you remain here?—A. I brought my family when I 
 came here. 
 
 Q. That don’t quite answer my question.—A. I have been out to In¬ 
 diana two or three times. 
 
 Q. After coming back you brought your family, and left your family 
 in Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you stay there then ?—A. I think probably a week 
 or two weeks. 
 
 Q. Is that the last time you were there?—A. No, sir; I was there 
 two or three weeks ago. I took three or four trips to Indiana in all; 
 five including last October. 
 
 Q. Yes, and each time you were there, how loug did you stay ? What 
 was the shortest visit you made ?—A. I think I went off one Monday and 
 got back here on the next Sunday morning. 
 
 Q. That would leave you there three or four days ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it would make your longest staY T eight or ten days ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Was that your longest stay in Indiana?—A. Yes; not over ten 
 days, I think. 
 
 Q. Well, now, Mr. Perry, tell us what prominent white men you got 
 acquainted with there ?—A. Mr. Holloway, Mr. Dudley, and Mr. Jordan. 
 
 Q. Mr. Holloway was postmaster, was he ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Dudley United States marshal ?—A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Jordan register in bankruptcy ?—A. Yes; and I saw 
 Colonel Straight; this man Mills that was to furnish all the clothing, 
 he forgot to tell you that. 
 
 Q. You got acquainted with Mills ?—A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you get acquainted with Colonel Straight—I believe he was a 
 general, I think he is entitled to that rank, he is a Republican State 
 senator from that county in the legislature ?—A. I do not know about 
 that; I never heard. 
 
 Q. Did you get acquainted with anybody in the Journal office?—A. 
 Yes; with Mr. Martindale. 
 
 Q. Did you get acquainted with this handsome young gentleman 
 19 EX 
 
2£0 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 liere? [Indicating Judge Martindale’s son, who was present.]—A. I 
 think I never saw him before. 
 
 Q. He looks something like his father, don’t you think ?—A. I should 
 say, at least, he is small to compare with the judge. 
 
 Q. You got acquainted with Judge Martiudale ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you found him a very pleasant, agreeable gentleman?—A. 
 Well, Williams and me complained about it—lie seemed a little dry, and 
 we wasn’t much pleased. 
 
 Q. Dry? —A. Yes. He told us to come down, but we never had any 
 conversation with him, any more than he told us to come down that 
 evening and see Mr. Cobb. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Cobb ; the city editor of the paper ?—A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Cobb ?—A. YYs; I went up there. 
 
 Q. Did he write you up pretty nicely next morning ?—A. I do not 
 know as it was the next morning; he had a little piece in the paper. 
 
 Q. Rather friendly to the movement, wasn’t he?—A. O, yes. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. John C. New, chairman of the State Republican 
 committee?—A. Yes; I saw him once, probably in the post-office; he 
 was going off to California, they said, on some banking or mining busi¬ 
 ness. 
 
 Q. Did any of these prominent men tell you that you ought not to 
 bring any negroes into Indiana ?—A. No, sir; we asked them—of course 
 we presented our petition; if we had met you and thought you had any 
 money we would have presented it to you—telling them that we wanted 
 help to settle in Kansas; they all told us they could not do it. 
 
 Q. Out in Kansas?—A. Yes; or Colorado, or some of the Territories 
 —any place we would like. 
 
 Q. They said they couldn’t give you any money for that purpose ?— 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Were you in Indianapolis when that telegram came telling Mr. 
 Tenney to get -$620 or $625 ?—A. I sent the telegram here myself, or 
 had Mr. Kooutz to do it. I sent it through Mr. Koontz; by doing that 
 it didn’t cost me anything. 
 
 Q. You say vou lectured in Indianapolis in the colored church?—A. 
 I did. 
 
 Q. For the sake of getting money to go into Kansas?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you got $4.10?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In about twenty-four hours, however, that telegram raised $620? 
 —A. I do not know the money was raised. 
 
 Q. Y r ou knew that the fare of these people was paid ?—A. I left that 
 night. 
 
 Q. You know, Perry, just as well as you know that you and I are 
 sitting at this table looking each other in the face, that that money 
 was raised because of that telegram. 
 
 A. No; I didn’t know one dollar was raised. 
 
 Q. Have you any doubt about it?—A. Mr. Koontz told me it was not. 
 I left with the party that had tickets that night. 
 
 Q. Where did you go?—A. To Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. What did you find when you got there about the money that had 
 been raised?—A. They said nothing to me about it. Mr. Teuuy came 
 out of a room—him and some leading colored men came out of the 
 room- 
 
 Q. So you had Mr. Koontz to telegraph for $600, and you don’t to 
 this day know whether it was raised or not ?—A. Mr. Koontz told me 
 it was not. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 291 
 
 Q. How?—A. Mr. Koontz said it was not. I asked him if he got it, 
 and he said not. 
 
 Q. None of it?—I give you his words. 
 
 Q. We will send for Mr. Koontz.—A. He is the man. I do not know 
 how they got off. I went that night. 
 
 Q. Yon went that night ?—Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you knew you sent that telegram?—A. He sent it. 
 
 Q. I understand that, Perry; I will not misrepresent you at all; you 
 need not be afraid of that. Were you there when this lot came pursu¬ 
 ant to your telegram ?—A. I think I was; I forget the number. 
 
 Q. Do you look me in the eye and tell me that you didn’t talk to any¬ 
 body about the $625, and how it was raised ?—A. Yes, I do. I had no 
 talk with anybody as to what was raised. 
 
 Q. Do you not know whether it was raised or whether it was not?— 
 A. I do not, but before that time I told Mr. Bagley, chairman of a 
 committee there, that sometimes these people came here to Washington, 
 and had already overdone the churches, and concerts were gotten up, 
 and it was quite a strain on the people here. Bagley had a relief com¬ 
 mittee or association there, I think they call it, and I asked him if he was 
 going to get a pass for the people here who could not get away, and if 
 he would send a telegram and deposit the money with Mr. Tenney. He 
 said he didn’t know he could send a telegram, but would if he could; 
 so I sent it on these words of his, but whether it was raised and de¬ 
 posited or not I do not know. R. B. Bagley is the man from whom you 
 can find out all about it, and Mr. Koontz. 
 
 Q. You had this dispatch sent through Mr. Koontz; how soon after 
 you sent it did you go to Indianapolis?—A. That night; I was going 
 with the party that went that night. There were two parties. I went 
 with those who paid their own way. 
 
 Q. You had Mr. Koontz, you say, to send a dispatch to Tenney to 
 see Bagley, and you did that because Bagley told you about his being 
 at the head of the relief committee, and then that evening you went on 
 yourself?—A. Yes, sir; and I was there when Mr. Tenney came out of 
 the room. There was two parties of us, and I left the party that had 
 no money, and they were the ones we telegraphed for. 
 
 Q. We understand that perfectly well, that you left a portion here 
 that could not go on, and you sent a dispatch through Tenney to reach 
 Bagley to provide for them, and you started right away after the dis¬ 
 patch, and got there by the time Tenney got the dispatch, and he 
 showed you the dispatch, didn’t he?—A. No, sir; he never showed it 
 to me. 
 
 Q. How did you know he got it? You heard him speaking of getting 
 it when yon got there, did you not?—A. He was in the church; had 
 just come out of tbe room. 
 
 Q. And you were there with Bagley ?—A. I came in as they came 
 out. 
 
 Q. And you met Mr. Tenney, and knew he had Koontz’s dispatch; 
 how did you ascertain it?—A. Yes; I knew he had the dispatch. 
 
 Q. And yet you tell this committee you didn’t know whether that 
 money was raised or not?—A. I didn’t. Mr. Koontz and Mr. Bagley 
 will tell you so. 
 
 Q. You never talked about it that evening ?—A. When I got there 
 they spoke to me about just getting a telegram, but as to telling me 
 whether money was raised or not he didn’t. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you whether he could raise it?—A. He only said to 
 me, u I have just got your telegram.” 
 
292 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You had telegraphed to him to raise $G25 for destitute emigrants 
 here in Washington, and you got out there yourself as soou as your 
 telegram, and you met him ; now, you don’t want to be understood that 
 you and he didn’t talk about that money, do you?—A. No money was 
 mentioned; nothing was said further than just about receiving the 
 telegram. 
 
 Q. Well, here were these poor emigrants at this end of the line with¬ 
 out money. Now, didn’t you ask him whether he could raise the money 
 or not?—A. I do not know that I did. I did not interest myself about 
 asking him. 
 
 Q. Well, didn’t you care whether these poor lellows got any money 
 or not?—A. I did care. 
 
 Q. But you did not care to ask him whether he could raise the money 
 or not; you cared enough to have the telegram sent to raise the money, 
 and when you met him you didn’t care enough about the matter to ask 
 him whether or not he could raise the money ?—A. I do not know that 
 I asked him that. 
 
 Q. Is not that a little singular when you sent the telegram for that 
 very purpose ?—A. I didn’t know. 
 
 Q. You knew these men were at this end without means, and you 
 sent the telegram ?—A. But I do not think that I asked him about it. 
 
 Q. A r ou, an emigrant agent, you who had mainly induced these people 
 to come up from their North Carolina homes and had seen them landed 
 here without means to go on, didn’t interest yourself to ask about the 
 means for getting them on ?—A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, you sent these circulars out ?—A. I sent the circulars, but 
 I wrote them on the 15th of February not to come to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Is that the reason why you didn’t ask Bagley whether the money could 
 be raised ?—A. I do not think that I did. He says to me, him or Elder 
 Treveigne, three or four big men who were there together- 
 
 Q. Didn’t you tell Thomas P. Mills when he was here, u You know 
 how that money was raised; you keep dark”?—A. Isays to Mr. Mills 
 as I was walking up the street, u Flow are you ? ” And when I said, 
 “I am going to make you tell about that money,” he said, u Well, I 
 will tell the truth,” and 1 said, u so shall I.” That was all that was said 
 between me and Mills, but that money is the $27 which he says is only 
 $25; that is the money Mr. Jordon spoke of giving to me. 
 
 Q. How many negroes did you leave down here after you started ?— 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. As near as you can tell ?—A. I could not say ; I do not recollect; 
 I do not know. 
 
 Q. Well, you were a pretty big nigger yourself in their estimation, 
 were you not?—A. Well, I was right smart during the campaign, but 
 it always came hard on me after the campaign was over. I did not be¬ 
 lieve these letters, because I knew I had not bothered anybody; but, of 
 course, they claimed that I had demoralized the labor system down 
 there. I did not care about that, so far as our colony was concerned. 
 I was determined to settle them in the West if I could, in one of the 
 Territories; so, when I went back there I asked an officer if he did not 
 have a warrant against me—after being there, I think, twelve days— 
 and he said yes. 
 
 Q. Well, were you arrested?—A. He told me to come around next 
 morning—to come around to the trial. 1 told him all right. I came, and 
 this same man that declared that the negro has got no soul, he was the 
 man I was to be tried before. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 293 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. What was his name 1 ?—A. His name is Dr. P. W. Woolley. He 
 was the man I was to be tried before; but I didn’t take no notice of it. 
 I did not think it amounted to anything; for I had no idea there was 
 prejudice enough or malice against me to fasten anything wrong against 
 me. I had a credential from the mayor of the town and the officers 
 there. They knew my standing; it had never been questioned up till 
 now. 
 
 Q. Well, what was done?—A. They had an indictment against me 
 for assisting in forging papers, or something of that kind—aiding and 
 abetting, I think, was the word. They called a witness on the stand, 
 and one man swore very hard against me. He didn’t swear that I 
 altered any names or figures, or put in any names, still they required 
 me to come there and give a bond. The church there was taking hold 
 of the matter. 
 
 Q. The colored church you belong to?—A. Yes, sir; the Methodist 
 church, and the Baptist church too, though I did not belong to that. 
 The men who told me that they would never give their consent to set- 
 tling this colony, and were opposed to it, came that day and put their 
 money down, and told me if it had not been for that thing they never 
 would have- 
 
 Q. Well, you say there was no evidence implicating you in any way?— 
 A. Not a bit. There was no evidence, and I did not make any effort. 
 That bond was given in April. They say that I have run away. 
 
 Q. Your bond was not forfeited till April ?—A. No, sir. This man, 
 Mr. Ducarte, who swore against me, swore that I run away. 
 
 Q. What bonds were you put under?—A. $100, I think. 
 
 Q. Well, you have had more connection with this movement from 
 North Carolina than anybody else that you know of, have you?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there were any political motives connected with it, 
 so far as going to Indiaua was concerned ?—A. Not that I know of. I was 
 in Indiana, as I told you—Williams and myself. Williams was a minis¬ 
 ter, and never has anything to do with politics, and we talked about 
 that between ourselves, that we was afraid there might be some political 
 clap-trap in it, some kind of political trick or other, but we did not 
 know. We simply got off and talked about it, and we wanted to go off 
 further West; in fact, we had no confidence in anybody so far as that is 
 concerned, and we thought it might be so. 
 
 Q. Well, have you co-operated in any political movement or had any 
 money furnished to you for any political purpose whatever ?—A. No, sir; 
 not a cent for any political purpose at all. 
 
 Q. And you have told us now substantially all you recollect at pres¬ 
 ent about that movement, about your getting it up, and why it was—the 
 motives which induced it, and so on ; if you think of anythiug else just 
 give us the whole story ?—A. Auother thing I forgot about. Down 
 South there is a set—at least we have them among us there—of broken- 
 down politicians, men of no standing at all. I have noticed in several Re¬ 
 publican papers even about being cheated out of the election there in 
 the second Congressional district, but the man was so rotten that ran 
 for the office that we had to lay him over. The Republicans I admit—I 
 do not say the Democrats—done that; we uever charged it on them. Of 
 course I am a Republican, I would not be anythiug else, but I would 
 vote for Kitchen a thousand times before I’d vote for any man like 
 O’Hara, because he was a man that was a bigamist, had two wives, and 
 was accused of being in jail in Halifax. So we laid him over, and the 
 
294 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 intelligent Republicans was satisfied, aud nobody complained, I suppose, 
 of political violence there, not of late years anyhow. Bat in the Kuklux 
 time of coarse there was violence. 
 
 Q. What was the feeling in the Kuklux time ?—A. Why, it was in¬ 
 tense, of coarse; that was rough ; that is, the colored people was alarmed; 
 they was scared. 
 
 Q. Is there any apprehension on their part now as to a return of that 
 condition of things?—A. No, sir; I do not kuow that there is. 
 
 Q. Do they think the men have changed very much on these things? 
 —A. No, sir; they think they are at it in another way. We think the 
 idea is to get us poor, and keep us starved down from hand to mouth, 
 just simply to get enough to subsist on. In fact, in our particular sec¬ 
 tion there, there has been no violence that I know of, and that is lately; 
 but in the Kuklux time there was a good many colored people killed; 
 I know of several; but that was in 1870, I think ; about 1870. 
 
 Q. Was that about the time when the State went into Democratic 
 hands ?—A. Yes, sir; I think that was the year that they read us fel¬ 
 lows out; that was the year 1870. In 18G8, that was the year Jim Har¬ 
 ris got the bribe. James H. Harris—he is one of the men that in 1868 
 got the bribe; in 1870 the Democrats got control of the legislature; 
 they did not get the governor until 1876,1 believe. We had the State 
 officers, but they had the legislature. 
 
 Q. If you think of anything else that will throw light on the subject 
 you may give it to us?—A. I do not think of anything else now. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Perry, how old are you ?—A. Thirty years old on the 15th of last 
 July. 
 
 Q. Well, you have been a pretty active enterprising young fellow in 
 your time ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were a mere boy when the war closed?—A. Yes, sir; I was 
 born in 1849. 
 
 Q. Did you belong to somebody before the war ?—A. Yes, sir ; I be¬ 
 longed to a man. 
 
 Q. He was a good man, was he?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was he?—A. Wiiliam G. Perry. 
 
 Q. Do you bear his name ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where is henow ?—A. Ido not know, sir; I have not hearn of 
 him, I think, for five years. I left him in Chatham County, and I went 
 down east. Everybody went down east to get rich in raising cotton. I 
 think it was 125 miles. He was living up in Raleigh, and I lived down 
 in Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. You did not better your condition by going down east, did you?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I think we did. We had more money, but we had to spend 
 more. We used to raise fruit in that country. 
 
 Q. W T as your old master a planter?—A. Yes, sir; down in Chatham 
 County. 
 
 Q. Are you a married man, Perry?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where'is your family?—A. Here. 
 
 Q. Here with you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you commenced turning your attention to this matter in 
 1872 ?—A. Yes, sir. Uncle Bergen, old Hemer Bergen, used to be mag¬ 
 istrate—he was an old colored man, and we elected him three or four 
 times. He was always talking about going to Liberia or to the West. 
 He was a married man and had several children. We got the circular 
 of O. F. Davis, and that was the first time, in 1872 or 1874; that was 
 the first time we heard about him, and that we could get free lands. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 295 
 
 Q. How many of those emigrants did yon leave here 1 ?—A. I found 
 out, when the train started to go, that a good many ot them had money 
 to pay their way. The society had raised it. 
 
 Q. You telegraphed to them for $625 or $620?—A. Well, I do not 
 recollect; I think he said $625. I don’t recollect exactly what amount, 
 but I think it was $600. 
 
 Q. How many negroes would that carry to Indiana ?—A. I don’t know,, 
 sir ; but it is very easy to tell. Forty something, I reckon. 
 
 Q. Do you want to make any change in your answer, that you do not 
 know anything of money being raised?—A. I say I do not recollect 
 talking to him about the money; he said he had just got the telegram. 
 
 Q. isn’t this the truth, that when you got there the first thing you 
 did was to inquire whether that dispatch got there ?—A. I do not know 
 that it is ; I think the first thing he said when I met him was that the 
 dispatch had just got there. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t it a fact that you asked him that?—A. He said he had 
 just got it. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you wait there some little time, until Tinney came home ?— 
 A. No, sir ; I got there that night, I think. 
 
 Q. Didn’t Bagby tell you that Tinney didn’t get the dispatch, but 
 that Levi 0. Morriss got it?—A. I believe there was something of that 
 kind; but, gentlemen, I have got nothing to keep back. I recollect 
 that Bigbee said that Morriss got the dispatch. That was a mistake I 
 made a while ago, unintentionally. I recollect that Bigbee did tell me 
 that Tinney was down in the country advertising a grand reception. 
 
 Q. You did not ask Bigbee if he could raise the money ?—A. No, sir; 
 I did not ask him anything about the money. 
 
 Q. You did not ask if anybody could raise the money? You knew 
 the people were here, and could not go without it ?—A. I did not know 
 that, because the churches and things here had sent off a good many 
 before. 
 
 Q. But you thought they were about worn out in their charity?—A. 
 I thought they had done their share. 
 
 Q. Have you given all your reasons why you have changed your 
 mind against people going to Indiana?—A. Well, sir, I began to thiuk 
 there was some mistake somewhere; and I did not think things had 
 been told that were right; that the truth had not been told, or that 
 other men had made a mistake. I first lost confidence in the truth of 
 the circulars. I know I was out there once, and there came some wo¬ 
 men and said they could not suit the white people out there, and they 
 wanted to come back home. There is a good deal of feeling among 
 them in favor of getting back ; among those there in Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you were there ?—A. The 8th of January. 
 
 Q. There is a good deal of sickness and some deaths among them ?— 
 A. Yes, sir ; some of the children died therein Indianapolis, but I don’t 
 know how many. One or two died that day or night. I went to the 
 house, but I did not stay there long. There was one child dead right 
 at the door; some children were sick, and I heard that one of the grown 
 people was dying. 
 
 Q. You are a retired politician, but you are still in favor of your 
 party?—A. Yes, sir; I want our party to stand up. 
 
 Q. You think it would be a good thing to have ten thousand of those 
 people there?—A. If their financial and industrial condition could be 
 made right, I would like to see ten thousand, or as many as are neces¬ 
 sary, go in there and work a revolution in the politics of the State. 
 
296 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You thought that when you were organizing this movement?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t that a natural feeling of your kind of people out there in 
 Indiana?—A. I cannot recollect a man out there who brought up the 
 subject of politics in connection with it. We acted on our petition all 
 the time. When we met a man we would talk to him about it; we al¬ 
 ways poked it at him. I said, the night I was lecturing in the colored 
 church, that if I thought there was any politics in the thing I would 
 take my hands out of it; and I was poked in the back by a colored 
 man behind me who said I ought not to say that. 
 
 Q. You knew you were with the big men of the Bepublican party 
 there in Indianapolis?—A. Yes, sir; but I do that, too, at home. But 
 we were introduced out there to men who were said to be philanthropic, 
 and would, probably, assist us. 
 
 Q. The day that Mr. Morriss made that little speculation with you and 
 Williams, where did you get that money?—A. Mr. Jerdeu, Mr. Morriss, 
 Williams, and myself were all together; but the money was all given to 
 Williams and myself; and Morriss got into the buggy with Mills’s in¬ 
 structions and w 7 ent down there to the depot with us, and gave the 
 money to his brother. 
 
 Q. Did you know they were making a speculation out of you by sell¬ 
 ing you these tickets?—A. Yes, sir; I found that out afterwards; but 
 they sell tickets, and I had been in the office, and knew a mau coming 
 in there to bu 3 T tickets, and I thought we could get them there cheaper 
 from them. 
 
 Q. They are scalpers, are they not?—A. Yes, sir; I guess so. 
 
 Q. Did you know they were good Republicans?—A. Yes, sir; I heard 
 a good deal of politics in there. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say they passed the money around so fast you could hardly 
 see it?—A. Yes, sir; I could hardly see where it went to. 
 
 Q. Whose money was it?—A. Jerden’s. 
 
 Q. That was for the two tickets for you to come back on ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. Mr. Mills said, if he bought them at the depot it would be $18 
 apiece, and he would sell them for $13 each, and I thought that was a 
 pretty big saving. 
 
 Q. What did you do to get that squad to Greencastle?—A. Yes, sir; 
 I went with the first lot. 
 
 Q. Were you with the crowd when Langsdale walked them up the 
 street ?—A. He was at the head of it, and I think I w r as at his side. 
 
 Q. How long did you stay there ?—A. Until Monday evening, I think. 
 That w r as on Saturday. 
 
 Q. Who bought the tickets for them?—A. Mr. Reynolds bought the 
 tickets. He is the mail agent at Indianapolis. I seen him handling 
 mail bags in that little room there. 
 
 Q. What are you going to do in this business hereafter; are you go¬ 
 ing to keep on in it ?—A. No, sir ee, boby. I started some back, the 
 other day ; or, rather, changed them from Indiana. 
 
 Q. Well, now, about this little arrangement w r ith the Baltimore and 
 Ohio Road ; did they treat you right in that?—A. No, sir ; I don’t think 
 they treated anybody fairly. I never received a cent from them. When 
 we came back here w r e went to see Mr. Cole, to see what rates w 7 e could 
 get from Goldsborough to Indianapolis. He w 7 rote to me he could put 
 us there for fifteen dollars, and said he would pay us seventy-live cents 
 on each passenger. He afterwards offered a dollar. He said he would 
 allow T us seventy-live cents for our services; but this man, Dukehart, 
 came down there and saw me, and raised it to a dollar. 1 was the only 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 ✓ 
 
 297 
 
 man lie could see while he was down there. He gave me a pound of 
 tobacco, and cigars were nowhere ; I had plenty of them. 
 
 Q. He thought you were a fine man, then?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He was to give you seventy-five cents, and, afterwards, a dollar, 
 on each passenger?—A. Yes, sir. Me and Williams talked about it, 
 and we would not agree to receive it. We decided that we would let the 
 money be paid to the Emigration Aid Society, and to tell them to fur¬ 
 nish tickets to our colored friends. Mr. Cole never paid me a dollar. 
 I was here without any money and got thirty-one dollars and seventy- 
 five cents from the treasurer of the aid society. 
 
 Q. You think the road ought to pay you something?—A. Yes, sir; 
 but they don’t do it. 
 
 Q. I think they ought, myself.—A. They don’t do fair at all. Cole 
 wrote mo the other day that never owed me a cent, and that he 
 never did. 
 
 Q. You have no confidence in them any more ?—A. No, sir ; not a bit. 
 
 Q. You say you have been sending some of them back home?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I have told them to sell their tickets here and go somewhere 
 else, and for God’s sake not to go to Indiana. Some of them went back 
 to Portsmouth, and some to Maryland, and some have gone to Pennsyl¬ 
 vania. I told them I went into the thing honestly, and when I saw 
 it was wrong I gave it up. 
 
 Q. You pointed out some things in the laws of North Carolina that they 
 complain about; now, isn’t it likely that in other States you would find 
 laws that you would complain of just as much ?—A. Yes, sir; but per¬ 
 haps they would be administered or executed differently. 
 
 Q. Did your people complain of the execution of the laws when Gov¬ 
 ernor Vance was governor?—A. I think they rather praised him, as he 
 did so much better than we expected. 
 
 Q. You have schools down there—separate normal schools for your 
 people ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any such thing as that in Indiana?—A. My knowledge of 
 Indiana is small. I think I was told \>y a colored man there that the 
 schools were all the same. 
 
 The Chairman. We have a large and magnificent normal school, the 
 finest in the world ; and it is in my town ; and there is a portion of 
 that school where people of your race can be educated. But there are 
 so few of them in the State, except in the cities, that it is a very poor 
 privilege to the colored race. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Now, what do you think of the State that gives you a separate in¬ 
 sane asylum ? Is there any such thing in Indiana ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, I only wanted to give you some additional reasons not to 
 like Indiana.—A. You can’t do that any more than I dislike itno w. 
 
 Q. I understood you, Perry, to say that the laws in relation to public 
 roads, passed at the last session of the legislature, you understood, were 
 to affect the colored people ?—A. I said those laws, in connection with 
 others, were complained of. 
 
 Q. Do you think they affect the negroes more than any others ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; that is, the way 1 construe it. 
 
 Q. What is that law?—A. That a man between eighteen and forty- 
 five must work the roads ten days in every year, whenever the over¬ 
 seer calls on him. The complaint is made by both white and colored 
 people. 
 
 Q. Do you think the desire to improve the public highways has a ten- 
 
298 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 deucy to hurt the colored people?—A. No, sir. The colored people, 
 though, have little stock to travel od, and we think the roads ought to 
 be worked by taxation, and men paid to work them. I know at our 
 revival down there they took our preacher out of the pulpit and put 
 him on the public works. 
 
 Q. Well, his business there was to learn people to mend their ways, 
 wasn’t it?—A. Yes, sir ; but that busted up our revival. 
 
 Q. Your race don’t own much of the land and the stock that travels 
 the roads?—A. No, sir; and thereiore I say the roads ought to be 
 worked by taxation. 
 
 Q. Your folks don’t pay much tax, do they?—A. They pay a poll-tax, 
 but have got nothing else to pay ou. 
 
 Q. Well, the poll tax goes to education, doesn’t it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the matter with this landlord and tenant act ? Where is 
 there anything unrighteous in it?—A. The part of it where we think it 
 is most severe is where it gives the landlord the right to be the court, 
 sheriff, and jury, and say when the rents shall be paid. 
 
 Q. Does it say that?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, when the landlord says my rent is not paid, supposing a ten¬ 
 ant is dishonest—when he wants to cheat him—don’t you think he ought 
 to have a right to make him pay ?—A. The reason we complain is that 
 we can’t turn any of it into money unless the rent is paid. 
 
 Q. You think that, by the act passed first, by the Republicans, he 
 could move part of it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you ought to be careful, Perry, when you swear to the law, 
 because that is written down and can be proven ?—A. Well, sir, the 
 whites complained of this law the same as the colored people. It bears 
 heavily ou all the poor people. 
 
 Q. It does not bear heavily on the poor man when he is honest and 
 wants to pay his rent.—A. It comes hard on him sometimes, when he 
 wants to sell a part of his crop, to hire help, and buy meat, and get out 
 the balance. And then they claim that it makes them sort of servants 
 to the landlords. 
 
 Q. Any man who owes money to another man is a sort of servant any 
 way, isn’t he?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of three wagons coming up to a man’s house and taking 
 away his crop ?—A. Yes, sir; that was under the mortgage system. 
 
 Q. Well, the man had mortgaged the crop?—A. Yes, sir. That was 
 year before last. There were short crops then, and merchants, I don’t 
 suppose, got all for their goods. 
 
 Q. If the merchants advance money and do not get their money out 
 of the crop, the tenants get the best of them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the merchant loses his money ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do when you went to Chatham county ?—A. I was 
 working on a farm. 
 
 Q. As a hireling or as a cropper ?—A. As a hireling. I never cropped 
 at all. 
 
 Q. How much did you get?—A. I got eleven and twelve dollars, and 
 I eat at the white folks’ house. I worked with Mr. Sutton. They paid 
 me more than anybody else, because I weighed up the cotton, and all 
 that. 
 
 Q. Then you were not oppressed very badly?—A. No, sir; I said 
 awhile ago I could stay there and do pretty well. 
 
 Q. You said there was a desire among the colored people to get away 
 from the old master class. Now, I ask you to tell this committee if 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 299 
 
 the old master class are not better friends to the colored people than the 
 men who never did own them ?—A. That may be in some eases. 
 
 Q. Won’t they universally do more for them than the people who 
 never owned them ?—A. They will as servants. I went to my old mas¬ 
 ter, William S. Perry, and worked with him up there in 1875, and he 
 talked of putting a stick on me. I thought that I was a citizen, and 
 that was going too far; but you know I could not go back and talk to 
 him like any other man. 
 
 Q. May be he did not have much opinion of you as a man when he 
 owned you ?—A. Well, sir, he let his folks do pretty much as they 
 pleased. He was a sort of Quaker, you know. 
 
 Q. These changes in the constitution which give the election of mag¬ 
 istrates to the legislature, instead of the people—you know the cause of 
 these changes ; now state them.—A. I know that they claimed that the 
 negroes were not fit to elect magistrates for themselves. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that they had some down there who could not 
 read and write?—A. Ido not know of one. 
 
 Q. Do you know Blunt, at Kinston ?—A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know he could not read and write ?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 I think it is the people to blame who do that. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know also there was universal complaint among the 
 Democrats in most of those counties where they had a large Republi- 
 can majority that the county finances were taken away and county taxes 
 were not collected, and when collected were used up ?—A. Yes, sir ; I 
 know that was a Democratic complaint, but I know in our county there 
 was money out at interest with a Republican government. That was 
 charged during the campaign, and that claim was the cause of the 
 change. 
 
 Q. The Democrats claimed it was to protect the county against cor¬ 
 rupt county governments?—A. Yes, sir; that was the claim. 
 
 Q. You spoke of wanting to go to Kansas?—A. Yes, sir ; I wanted 
 to take up a section of land there. 
 
 Q. Do you know the constitution of Kansas has the word u white” in 
 it with reference to suffrage ?—A. No, sir; I do not know that. 
 
 Q. I thought you said you were looking up the laws of the several 
 States?—A. No, sir; I do not know them. I said of our State. I do 
 not know of any more laws than the Revised Statutes. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a man named Colgrove, who was killed?—A. Yes, 
 sir; he was a sheriff there. We claim that he was killed because he 
 was a Northern man. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that he was charged with encouraging house-burn¬ 
 ing, and all that?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was in 1870, and that was the general understanding; that 
 was the time the Nethercotes were killed ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not Colgrove a convict from the New York penitentiary ?— 
 A. Yes, sir ; the Democrats claim that was true. 
 
 Q. It was proven on him by the records, wasn’t it ?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 believe it was. I heard of it, but I know men there who are bad men 
 who hold office. 
 
 Q. Did you tell the correspondent of the New York Times that Rouse and 
 Edwards and another man offered him a thousand dollars for your head ? 
 —A. No, sir; when I came back there were several colored men who 
 came to me and said I had better look out, that I was in danger, and 
 they were going to get away with me, and that they had offered a thou 
 sand dollars for my head. 
 
 Q. Why, you would not have brought that in old times. You are 
 
300 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 rather undersized, ain’t you ?—A. I do not know, sir. I said that I 
 heard, for it was reported to me. I reckon there are numbers of men 
 who told me that if I walked around there I would be killed. 
 
 Q. Did anybody offer you any violence ?—A. Not that I saw. 
 
 Q. What were they against you for ?—A. For this exodus; they 
 thought I was carrying on the exodus. I had made speeches there and 
 told the colored people of the government lauds and those on the Kan¬ 
 sas Pacific, and how they could get homesteads. 
 
 Q. What did you tell them that wages were ?—A. 1 think $2.50 a 
 day and $20 a month. I wish I had those papers with me, and I would 
 show them to you. 
 
 Q. You didn’t tell them they could get that in Indiana ?—A. No, sir ; 
 I had no idea of us going there at that time. 
 
 Q. This statement in the circulars is that “the fifteenth amendment 
 will be repealed, and all the colored people found south of the Ohio on 
 the 1st of May will be put back into slavery.” You knew that was a 
 
 lie ?—A. I did not know: I laid that on the table to think over. 
 
 / 
 
 Q. Now, Perry, you knew that was a lie, didn’t you ? Heave her up 
 now.—A. To be honest about it, I did not know what Mr. Clay meant. 
 I wasn’t there when he composed the circular. I think if the majority 
 of the people in the South, of the white people, not all of them—but I be¬ 
 lieve if they had their way they would repeal it. 
 
 Q. The statement in the circular was that it would be repealed. Didn’t 
 you know that was not so ?—A. I cannot answer that; I do not know. 
 
 Q. Y r ou do not know it to be the truth t —A. Of course I do not know 
 what Clay says, and that is the truth. I cannot say that I know what 
 Clay meant by that. 
 
 Q. You won’t say you knew it was a lie. Do you know it was the 
 truth ?—A. I know that were not so. 
 
 Q. And yet you handed around this circular to those ignorant people 
 in your place ?—A. I carried them there at the request of Clay. 
 
 Q. And every fellow that was induced to travel off on that you got a 
 dollar for?—A. It was not paid to me. 
 
 Q. You got a quarter of a dollar from all the men who signed this pe¬ 
 tition ?—A. Yes, sir; and they were to give me $250 and only paid us 
 $54. 
 
 Q. I seethe names are all signed in one handwriting?—A. Yes, sir; 
 that was by the secretary of the society. Aud nobody was sworn there. 
 We threw the doors open right there by the roadside, and there were 
 no sentinels. 
 
 Q. You say you wanted your race to enter upon a new plane of higher 
 Christian civilization. Was that the way to get on that plane?—A. I 
 do not vouch for all that is in that circular, Senator. 
 
 Q. But you handed them out ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you do not believe them ?—A. Well, sir, I see men around 
 here handing out Colonel Ingersoll’s lectures, and I do not believe them. 
 
 Q. You believe in a hell, don’t you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. 1 am glad to hear that. Now, in reference to your trial, you say 
 you gave bond?—A. The church gave it; they deposited the money ; 
 Mr. Dickerson and Mr. Morton got it up. 
 
 Q. What was the paper you were said to have forged?—A. A school 
 order. 
 
 Q. An order for school money?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much?—A. $54. 
 
 Q. What did the forgery consist in ; in making it too big?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; that was it. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 301 
 
 Q. But that order there was written by Aaron Perry.—A. 1 used to 
 write them for a good many people myself. I have written them out 
 for white ladies and others. 
 
 Q. This paper was in your handwriting?—A. No, sir; there were 
 white men there who swore it. 
 
 Q. What proof was there ; or didn’t you hear any?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have counsel?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. W. S. O. B. Bobinson? 
 of Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. He let you go on to trial without any testimony against you ?—A. 
 How could he help himself? 
 
 Q. Who presented that paper for the money ?—A. I do not know, 
 sir. All I know was what I heard there at the trial. 
 
 Q. The committee swore they never signed it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And it was for signing the names as well as making it too big 
 that you were prosecuted ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was trying to make the money out of it ?—A. It was Aaron 
 Perry. They had done arrested him and turned him loose on straw 
 bail, and waited to arrest me. 
 
 Q. Aud you say you was tried by a man who said a nigger was no 
 better than a beast?—A. Yes, sir. He is an honorable man in most 
 ways, and I like him, but he said that. 
 
 (The witness here produced a paper which he presented to the com¬ 
 mittee with the remark, u That was sent me by a justice of the peace.’ 7 ) 
 
 Q. (By Senator Vance.) Do you own any property down there ?—A. 
 No, sir; only what the railroad has got. They say they have got it. 
 
 Q. Do you own any land ?—A. Yes, sir ; I own an acre. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts?—A. In the town of La Grange; part of it is in 
 the town, and part out. 
 
 Q. Have you sold it?—A. I gave it away. I could not hardly say I 
 sold it. 
 
 Q. Whom did you give it to ?—A. I got $60 in money and traded out 
 the balance ; to Henry Dillon. 
 
 Q. Why didn’t you wait and hold on to it ?—A. I had mortgaged it 
 the year before for something to live on ; the mortgage was due in a few 
 days. 
 
 Q. How much did you mortgage it for ?—A. $28 or $30. 
 
 Q. And you couldn’t raise that much money?—A. No, sir; I do not 
 think I could. I had nobody to borrow from, and everybody else 
 wanted their money.. 
 
 Q. Did you make any speeches to the people of La Grange on the 
 exodus?—A. Last summer some of them wanted some of us to make a 
 speech to them, and I probably said about twenty words on that sub¬ 
 ject. I said that I was going to Kansas; and then they met at every 
 fortnight at the school-house to consider it. 
 
 Q. Did you have any sentinels ?—A. No, sir ; not while I was there. 
 If they had while I was gone, it was contrary to the rules. 
 
 Q. Did you have any secrets ?—A. No, sir ; not then. 
 
 Q. When did you have any ?—A. They had some people over at 
 Wooten’s aud some meetings over there. I think a man told me they 
 found it necessary to hold these meetings secret. 
 
 Q. Why was it necessary to hold them secret ?—A. They said these 
 white people being opposed to our leaving, they could not sell anything 
 they had to advantage unless they kept the movement secret. 
 
 Q. They didn’t want to leave without selling their goods ?—A. No, 
 sir; but they were told just to sell them as though they were going over 
 to the next county. 
 
302 
 
 NEGKO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Was that the only reason why it was necessary to be secret?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any violence ottered toward any of them?—A. No, sir; 
 not that I ever heard of. 
 
 Q. The poor class of white people down there were willing for you 
 to go?—A. Yes, sir. I have several white men’s names, who said if I 
 saw places for them to write to them and they would come. 
 
 Senator Windom (referring to the paper just previously presented by 
 the witness). How came you to get this paper ?—A. I say that Mr. 
 Dukehart swore and Mr. O’Hara, a carpet-bag nigger from New York, 
 both swore about me, and I wrote to those gentlemen, the justice of the 
 peace, who was present at the trial, to send me a statement whether he 
 thought it was a fair trial, and he sent me this. 
 
 Q. (By Senator Windom.) Read it. 
 
 The Witness (reading): 
 
 We, tlie undersigned, citizens of Moseley Hall Township, wore present at the bogus 
 trial of Samuel L. Perry, at La Grange, in November last, and do certify that there 
 was no evidence against him at all. We have known him for several years, and be¬ 
 lieve him to be an honest colored man, and innocent of making out school orders and 
 signing them for Aaron Perry, as charged against him. We further believe the charges 
 were more against him on account of the exodus movement than on account of school 
 orders that was claimed to be signed by him. 
 
 BARNA DAWSON. 
 
 PATRICK JOYNER. 
 
 CISERO WOOTEN. 
 
 RABUN HARPER. 
 
 JOHN WOOTEN. 
 
 HOMER BORDEN. 
 
 ISAAC DANAL. 
 
 RUFUS PARRY. 
 
 PETER DAWSON. 
 
 RIGHT RAWS. 
 
 SAM PARISH. 
 
 REUBEN ATMORE. 
 
 I certify the above names are correct. 
 
 R. W. MOORE, J. P. 
 
 We could have got all the names you wanted if you had sent in time. 
 
 Q. Are any of these people who signed that paper white people, or 
 are they all colored men?—A. The justice of the peace is a white man, 
 elected by the legislature. He is a man who was summoned to swear to 
 my handwrite, and could not do it. 
 
 Q. What is this other paper ? 
 
 The Witness (readiug): 
 
 La Grange, North Carolina, 
 
 September 20, 1879. 
 
 This is to certify that the undersigned have known Samuel L. Perry for several years 
 and recommend him to be trusty and reliable. He has been teaching school here sev¬ 
 eral years, and at the same time an acknowledged leader of his race. 
 
 JAMES C. CARTER. 
 
 A. J. McINTIRE, Mayor. 
 
 B. F. ALDRICH. 
 
 S. D. POPE, P. M. 
 
 JOHN W. SUTTON. 
 
 Q. Is the mayor a white man ?—A. Yes, sir. That little town is 
 Democratic ; and you know he is. 
 
 Q. Are they all white men who signed that ?—A. Yes, sir, all of them. 
 Mr. Sutton has been constable. 
 
 Q. What is the opinion of your people as to whether the fifteenth 
 amendment, in case the Democratic party comes into power in the State 
 and nation, will be executed faithfully or not?—A. I stated to Senator 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 303 
 
 Vance that a majority of the white people would be in favor of striking 
 it down if they could. 
 
 Q. From what you hear of the state of things in Mississippi and 
 Louisiana, what do you think about it there? Do you think the colored 
 people have tlieir rights guaranteed by it ?—A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. What is the understanding of your people about this fifteenth 
 amendment, whether their rights are abridged in the Democratic States ? 
 —A. They think they are. 
 
 Q. Do you know about how many colored voters there are in the 
 United States ?—A. I do not recollect right now. 
 
 Q. You know there is a very large number ?—A. Yes, sir ; especially 
 in the Southern States. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know in some of the States they are in a majority, and 
 in some of the Congressional districts ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But since the Democrats came into power they have ceased to be 
 represented?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many of your people have ceased to vote ?—A. A good many 
 of them. We know that we are cheated out of our representatives in 
 the South. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it the general opinion of your race that the fifteenth amend¬ 
 ment is substantially abrogated in those States? Isn’t that their state 
 of mind ? x\nd don’t you think they would vote if they could ?—A. I 
 do not know, sir. I could not say as to that. 
 
 Q. Are they not generally inclined to vote ?—A. Yes, sir; but a great 
 many of them don’t vote, because they do not expect any success. We 
 have elected men time and again and could not get them. 
 
 Q. Why, were you cheated out of them ?—A. Yes, sir. We should 
 have up here thirty-five members who were put in here after the war on 
 account of the colored people. 
 
 Q. If by tissue ballots and all that, that amendment is abrogated sub¬ 
 stantially, is not that just as bad for the colored people as if it were re¬ 
 pealed ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it makes no difference to them whether it is repealed or vir¬ 
 tually abrogated ?—A. Yes, sir; they look at it that way. We don’t 
 expect anything more from it. Electors don’t amount to anything with 
 those people down there, and I have often said that if I wanted to get 
 elected I would conciliate the canvassing board of the Democrats. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that your old master class treated your 
 people very well as servauts but not as citizens ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it is your relation as citizens that you complain of ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And that is the general opinion of your race ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the school facilities of North Caro¬ 
 lina—what you had before the war?—A. No, sir; I don’t. 
 
 Q. Do you know what you have got now ?—A. No, sir; I don’t know. 
 I know that since the legislature passed that tax of ten dollar’s upon 
 each merchant it has run up pretty high. 
 
 Q. You saw the statement in the paper about it; what was it before 
 the war ?—A. I think it was $2,000,000. 
 
 Q. And it was reduced down by Democratic rule to $100,000 ?—A. No, 
 sir; I do not know anything about that. 
 
 On motion the committee adjourned to Monday, February 9, 1880, at 
 10 o’clock a. m. 
 
304 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 TWELFTH DAY. 
 
 WASHINGTON, Monday , February 9, 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment; present, the chairman 
 and all the members. The taking of testimony was resumed as fol¬ 
 lows : 
 
 TESTIMONY OF WILEY LOWEBFY. 
 
 Wiley Lowerey, colored, sworn and examined. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Where do you live?—A. In Kinston, Lenoir County, North Caro¬ 
 lina. 
 
 Q. What is your business at home ?—A. Well, sir, I run drays on the 
 street, and I have been drayer there for two or three years. I keep 
 store besides. 
 
 Q. In the town of Kinston ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you held any public office in the county ?—A. I have been 
 county commissioner. 
 
 Q. How long ?—A. About eight years. 
 
 Q. Are you county commissioner now ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But for eight years you were ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know any of the colored people who have left that county 
 in this exodus movement ?—A. There has not been many left from the 
 town, but there has been some from the country. I was up at the de¬ 
 pot and saw some of them going off, but I do not know them person¬ 
 ally. 
 
 Q. Do you know the cause which makes them leave ?—A. I think 
 that this man Perry was the gentleman who was stirring them up. I 
 think he is pretty much the cause of it. 
 
 Q. Did he make any speeches in Kinston ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear him?—A. No, sir; I never went to hear him. 
 
 Q. Was it reported to you what he said ?—A. I heard it going 
 around the street; but I paid no attention, and didn’t think much 
 of it. 
 
 Q. You don’t know what inducements Perry held out to them ?—A. 
 I was told that he told them if they could sell their things and go to 
 Goldsborough they would have free transportation. 
 
 Q. From Goldsborough on ?—A. Yes, sir ; and a great many of them 
 went up there, and were there some time. But I don’t know how they 
 managed to get away. 
 
 Q. What wages did he tell them they would get ?—A. From a dollar 
 to a dollar and a quarter a day. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any of the circulars that he put out ?—A. No, 
 sir, not in Kinston ; but I heard of them all around. 
 
 Q. Was there anything like a society organized by these exodus peo¬ 
 ple ?—A. I heard that they were holding a meeting about it, but I never 
 went to one of them. 
 
 Q. Was there anything to pay to get into it ?—A. I think there was 
 twenty-five cents a head. 
 
 Q. That was to join the society?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether it was secret or not?—A. It was secret, I 
 suppose. 
 
 Q. Did any of these people leave your section by reason of not being 
 allowed to vote freely?—A. No, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 305 
 
 Q. Or because they were persecuted by the white people in any way ? 
 —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or not justly treated in the courts, when they were tried for any¬ 
 thing?—A. No, sir; I think not. I think they left because these agents 
 held out the positions that they could get higher wages; and I think 
 most of them have left on that account. 
 
 Q. And that is all that you heard about it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything of the fifteenth amendment being repealed 
 and the black people being put back into slavery?—A. No, sir. It has 
 also been stated that they left because their wages was not sufficient for 
 them to live upon. 
 
 Q. State what the usual wages are that are paid down there ?—A. 
 From eight to ten dollars a mouth. 
 
 Q. What does that include besides his pay ? Is the man boarded ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; that means eight and ten dollars a mouth and his board. 
 
 Q. I am speaking now of farm laborers.—A. Yes, sir; that is it. 
 
 Q. Does he have a house to live in ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. His firewood and patch ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All that he wants to attend to?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Eight and ten dollars is given to a good hand?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are women and inferior hands worth?—A. Five to six dol¬ 
 lars. 
 
 Q. What time does the hiring generally last; how many months on 
 the plantation and at what ra^e ?—A. Well, sir, when we are coming to 
 picking-out time the hands don't like to work for wages, as they make 
 more picking out cotton. 
 
 Q. How much do they make ?—A. Women can make a dollar a day, 
 and men can make.as much. They can make more on the average pick¬ 
 ing out cotton than they can by workiug out by the month. 
 
 Q. When does the cotton-picking season begin?—A. I think the last 
 of September. 
 
 Q. What kind of prices does skilled labor bring, such as brick-masons, 
 carpenters, and blacksmiths?—A. From one and a half to two and a 
 halt a day. 
 
 Q. Is there any preference shown to one kind of workmen over others? 
 — A. I generally see them working on the same building, and have seen 
 it many times. 
 
 Q. If a white man has hands to hire, which has the preference, the 
 white or the black ?—A. The white has the preference sometimes in 
 wages. 
 
 Q. Which does he prefer to have?—A. I believe the colored men. 
 
 Q. He would not turn one off on account of his color?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You mean that a white carpenter, then, would get better wages 
 than a black one?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is not so in the case of field hands ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then the black people get better wages and have the preference 
 there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As county commissioner, it was your business to help draw the 
 juries?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. And the colored people got a fair showing in that ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 they always got their fair proportion. 
 
 Q. Some of the witnesses say that many times, in some counties, they 
 did not get their fair proportion.—A. There was no difference in our 
 county. The tickets were put in one box and drawn by a small boy and 
 put over in another one. 
 
 Q. In putting the names into the first box, the law prescribed a ccr- 
 20 ex 
 
306 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 tain character as to education, intelligence, and so on, for a juror ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in drawing the juries, you found more qualified white than 
 black men ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when you found a colored man qualified, there was no discrim¬ 
 ination against him ?—A. No, sir; not when I was there. 
 
 Q. And you were county commissioner eight years ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The mode of appointing them has been changed now, and they are 
 selected by the legislature ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Before they were elected by the people ?—A. Yes, sir; and it is 
 different from what it used to be. 
 
 Q. It has been pretended here that the judges don’t act fair, and that 
 a colored man is convicted quicker than a white man. Do you know 
 anything about that*?—A. No, sir; 1 don’t know of anything of the 
 kind. There are some people who, if they don’t come out all right, will 
 clamor anyhow, but I know of nothing of that sort, and I have been 
 about the court house most of the time. 
 
 Q. Do you know that more white men get off than colored ?—A. 
 Well, the colored men have more business in court than white men. 
 
 Q. Suppose you would put six white men and six colored men on 
 trial for larceny, would the wiiite men get off better than the colored 
 men ?—A. Well, Sir, I have seen that in some cases. 
 
 Q. Is it because the white man has money to pay a lawyer, and is a 
 little sharper in hiding his rascality ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think so ; for you 
 know the lawyer works for money. 
 
 Q. And the colored men are not able to cover up their rascality ?—A. 
 
 es, sir ; and generally they have no lawyers. 
 
 Q. Doesu’t the court assign counsel to them?—A. No, sir; I think 
 there has not been much of it done of late. 
 
 Q. I want to ask you something about the education of the colored 
 people—about their children. What chances have they in your county 
 to educate them?—A. I think we have good schools going on, and had 
 them all the time. 
 
 Q. As good as the whites?—A. I reckon they are. 
 
 Q. And as many of them ?—A. We have a great deal more in our 
 schools. 
 
 Q. You have more schools than the whites?—A. Not more schools, 
 but more children in them. We have a good school that runs five or 
 six months in the year. 
 
 Q. That is a free school ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are the chances for the higher education of your children ? 
 Are there any colleges for colored people in reach of your town ?—A. 
 None in our county. 
 
 Q. I mean in your end of the State. Are there any schools for the 
 education of teachers?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a very fine school in Greeusborough, where the colored people 
 are educated in the higher branches free?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the state of feeling in that section between the whites and 
 the blacks?—A. I think it is very friendly. 
 
 Q. Y r ou have no disturbances on public days, such as election days ?— 
 A. No, sir; I believe everybody votes to suit himself. 
 
 Q. What are your politics ?—A. I am a Republican. 
 
 Q. Do you vote that ticket every time?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you formerly a slave ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou were a freeman before the war?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you own property ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 307 
 
 Q. How much, and what does it consist of?—A. Town property prin¬ 
 cipally. 
 
 Q. Real estate?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made it since the war ?—A. Yes, sir ; most of it. 
 
 Q. Did you ever serve on juries?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you ever a judge of election ?—A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Do yon own a house and lot?—A. Yes, sir; I own a right smart 
 of houses. My renters pay me between tour and live hundred dollars a 
 year. 
 
 Q. Then you are in favor of the landlord and tenant act? You don’t 
 think a fellow ought to be allowed to move his crops off the premises 
 until he pays his rent ?—A. No, sir ; I don’t. But there are some little 
 restrictions that are pretty hard. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. How far is Lenoir County from Warren ?—A. 1 think 180 miles. 
 
 Q. How long was it after you left there before you moved to the one 
 where you now are?—A. I was raised there. 
 
 Q. You always lived there until you came to Lenoir?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you were always free?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Always free?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your age now?—A. I am forty r -seven years old. 
 
 Q. Were you always free?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were born free ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were your parents ever slaves?—A. No, sir; they never was. 
 My old grandfather was a hundred and five years old when he died, 
 and was always free. 
 
 Q. Neither you or any of your ancestors were ever slaves in this 
 countrv?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What were your opportunities for education before the war ?—- 
 A. 1 do not know, sir. Before the war I didn’t know much; but the 
 free colored people had a school going on in Raleigh. 
 
 Q. Y r ou said you were a county commissioner; where did you find 
 such an education such as you found necessary in that position ?—A. I 
 just picked it up. I never went to school a day in my life. 
 
 Q. You found time to study and pick up a little arithmetic?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; 1 can read and write. 
 
 Q. W’hat have been your duties as county commissioner?—A. Just 
 what the others on the board had to do. 
 
 Q. What are the duties of the county commissioners?—A. Attending 
 to the poor-house, appointing jurors, and looking after the roads and 
 bridges. 
 
 Q. Did they have anything to do with the taxes?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The valuation of property, and the assessment of taxes?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Who collected the taxes?—A. The sheriff. 
 
 Q. Who appointed the sheriff ?—A. He was elected by the people. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a change in the mode of appointing county commis¬ 
 sioners. Since that change was made have you been a commissioner! 
 —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have there been any colored commissioners since ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many commissioners are there in your county board?—A. 
 There are five and they are all white. 
 
 Q. How was it before this change ?—A. Generally there were about 
 two colored and three white commissioners. 
 
 Q. Is that a Republican county?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
308 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What are the politics of the couuty commissioners now ?—A. They 
 are all Democrats. 
 
 Q. How does that happen ?—A. By this change in the law. 
 
 Q. Do you imagine that change in the law was made to secure Dem¬ 
 ocratic county commissioners in Republican counties?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Do your people so understand it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you no Republican officials in that couuty ?—A. The sheriff 
 is a Republican and so is the register. 
 
 Q. How about your judges—those who try causes?—A. Of the infe¬ 
 rior courts, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Take the judges of the higher courts first, for instance ?—A. They 
 are elected. 
 
 Q. Elected by the people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the highest court in the State?—A. The supreme court. 
 
 Q. Is that the one you refer to?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you have judges of the inferior courts, also?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you a county court ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What class of cases do they have jurisdiction over—crimiual 
 cases ?—A. No, sir, I think not. 
 
 Q. [ mean do they try men for larceny, and all that?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is what I mean ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are those county judges elected or appointed ?—A. They are ap¬ 
 pointed. 
 
 Q. How was it before this change in the constitution—were they ap¬ 
 pointed, or chosen by the people ?—A. They were elected. 
 
 Q. All the judges were then elected t —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Before the change the judges of the higher courts had jurisdiction 
 in all cases?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And by this change jurisdiction in these smaller crimes is given to 
 the county interior courts?—A. Yes, sir. * 
 
 Q. And who are those judges?—A. They are Democrats. 
 
 Q. You say all these county judges are Democrats ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the county commissioners, also?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So the new constitution has resulted in thus changing the 
 political control of these Republican counties?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you understand that w r as a part of the design in changing the 
 constitution?—A. I thiuk it was, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Lowery, you have perhaps not visited any of our Northern 
 States ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you do not know the chances the colored man has there for 
 acquiring an education and exercising all his civil and political rights ? 
 —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know that it is not an advantage to your people 
 to go North ?—A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. You say you do not know of but very few who have left your 
 county?—A. No, sir; most of those who left there were from back in 
 the country. 
 
 Q. You live in town ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it in a thickly-settled town?—A. Yes, sir: it is the county 
 seat. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the colored people are situated out in the country? 
 Take the matter of public schools—I think it has been said that the 
 country people do not have as much chance as those in town to send 
 their children to school ?—A. I thiuk we have very good schools all over 
 the county. I have seen teachers who were teaching out there. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 309 
 
 Q. Do you know bow long tbe schools are kept open in the country ? 
 —A. Four months, I believe. In town we have them longer. 1 think 
 ours in our town run ten months. Oat in the country I think they run 
 four and five months. 
 
 Q. The length of time depends, I suppose, upon the amount of prop¬ 
 erty to support them?—A. Yes, sir; and the number of children. 
 
 Q. How many colored men do you know to have left your county?— 
 A. 1 was up at the depot one day and I saw a good many getting oft; 
 but I don’t think they were all from our couuty. 
 
 Q. Do you think there are twenty five who have gone?—A. I don’t 
 think many over twenty-five. 
 
 Q. About how many did you see getting on the train that day ?—A. 
 I could not say. I think right smart of them were from Pitt County. 
 I know the wagons were bringing them in from there. I just went up 
 th^re to the depot and I saw them getting off. 
 
 Q. You mean getting ou the train?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And “getting off'” from the couutry to Indiana, or elsewhere?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your county seems to be a Republican county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is a majority of the population colored ?—A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. How is the colored population divided politically ?—A. I believe 
 they are pretty much altogether there. 
 
 Q. You mean all Republicans ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there one colored mau out of fifty who is a Democrat ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there one out of a hundred ?—A. I suppose you might get that 
 many. 
 
 Q. I suppose they all vote for Governor Vance, however?—A. No, 
 sir; but there is a great many of them that always like him. While 
 not many of them vote for him, yet, as a man, they like him pretty 
 well. 
 
 Q. You speak in your testimony here of the condition of the colored 
 people in your county principally?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not claim to know it so well as to the State generally ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q Is it or is it nit your understanding that in some parts of the 
 State the colored people have been subjected to hardships and cruel¬ 
 ties, and have some causes of complaint ?—A. I do not know, really. I 
 do not hear much complaint of them being oppressed. Some time back 
 there was talk of it; but for the last seven or eight years I haven’t 
 heard any of it. 
 
 Q. Rut yon all still stick to the Republican party ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From what part of the State is this exodus most numerous ?—A. 
 I think from our county, and from Pitt and Wayne and Greene. 
 
 Q. Do those counties all lie together?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have many of these people come back who went North ?—A. I 
 have heard talk of several coming back, and a great many writing that 
 they want to come back. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of the letters ?—A. I have; but I have not had 
 any myself. 
 
 Q. Have you known of any political characters, or of any men who, 
 so far as y&u know, had political reasons for it, going through your 
 State to stir up this emigration to the North? Do you know anything 
 of its being a Republican movement?—A. No, sir ; I think the men who 
 did it did it for their own benefit. I never heard anything about it until 
 I heard of Perry going around stirring them up. 
 
310 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Perry, you said, was from your county?—A. Yes, sir; but not 
 from my town. 
 
 Q. You thiuk it was a business enterprise?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And some men thought they could make money out of it?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Do you know Louis Williams?—A. I do not know of him. 
 
 Q. He was one of the colored men who left there.—A. Those who 
 left there were mostly from back in the country, and I did not know 
 them. There were none who left the town, or from around the edges 
 of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know Perry?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How does he stand there with the better class of your colored 
 people?—A. I don’t think he stands so well. 
 
 Q. The suspicion is among them that he was trying to make money 
 out of this thing ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any colored man who had labored and made 
 money for himself who went off in this exodus?—A. I heard talk of 
 one leaving; but he never sold his land. I reckon he just went to look 
 aud see for himself, and come back. V r e have in our county jail now 
 two fellows who were going through the county selling tickets for the 
 exodus. 
 
 Q. What kind of tickets?—A. Tickets to Indiana. 
 
 Q. What right did they have to sell tickets to Indiana ?—A. None at 
 all. They went out into the back country aud got in with an old man 
 out there. They asked him if he wanted to go, and he said, “Yes”; 
 and they sold him tickets to take him and his whole family to Indiana 
 for a dollar apiece; but he found out that the tickets were not good, 
 and he came to town aud got a warrant and had them arrested. 
 
 Q. They have taken a homestead in jail ?—A. I left them in there. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you keep the jail?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF LEWIS H. FISHER. 
 
 I Lewis H. Fisiier (colored) was sworn aud examined as follows: 
 
 By Senator Vance: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. At Kinston, Lenoir 
 County. 
 
 Q. in North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation at home?—A. I am a merchant. 
 
 Q. Do you own property?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much and of what kind ?—A. It is personal property and real 
 estate—farming lands and town lots. 
 
 Q. Do you farm some, also?—A. I rent out my land in the country. 
 Q. How much do you hold your property to be worth today?—A. 
 Between $4,000 and $5,000. 
 
 Q. Were you formerly a slave?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your age?—A. I entered my thirty-second year last Jan¬ 
 uary. 
 
 Q. So you were not of age when you were set free?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made all your property since you were set free ?—A. 
 Every dollar of it. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 311 
 
 Q. What is your politics?—A. Republican, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you held auv offices or official positions in your county?— 
 A. Yes, sir. I was first appointed on the school committee in laying 
 off the districts in the beginning. After that—holding it for four years— 
 I was elected coroner and held it two terms, or four years; after that I 
 was appointed county ranger, and at the present time I am school com¬ 
 mitteeman again. 
 
 Q. For your district, or the county?—A. For the ninth district. 
 
 Q. Who appointed you a school committeeman ?—A. I was appointed 
 by the Democratic board. 
 
 Q. The board of county commissioners?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you state, if you know anything, what you know about these 
 people who left your county to go West?—A. I know some of them. 
 
 Q. Do you know what inducements were held out to them to cause 
 them to go?—A. The most that was agitated among them was the low 
 wages at home and that they were going where they could get better 
 ones. That was what they most seemed to talk about. 
 
 Q. What did they say was promised them ?—A. They were informed 
 that they could get $L and $1.25 per day, and in some instances $1.50 
 per day ; and on the farms could get $15 per month. 
 
 Q. That is what they were promised ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what was said to them about transportation?—A. I 
 heard that after they got to Washington they were to get free trans¬ 
 portation ; and some said that after they got to Goldsborough there was 
 to be a sort of free train that would carry them for a cent a mile. 
 
 Q. Do you know who put those reports out among them ?—A. I think 
 I do. 
 
 Q. From what you have heard ?—A. Yes, sir. There was a society 
 up there in La Grange that sent Perry to Kansas to view the lands, and 
 lie came back and told them they could get places in Indiana and do 
 better there. 
 
 Q. He told them that there was a demand for them out there, and 
 that they could get these prices that you have mentioned ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any of those circulars that were distributed?— 
 A. Yes, sir; some of them. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the promises that were made in those circulars?— 
 A. Some portion of them, but I do not recollect all. I recollect that I 
 saw where they said a man could get $15 a mouth and a cow- 
 
 Q. And calf?—A. Yes, sir; and a dwelling and fire-wood. All who 
 were good farmers were to get $15 a month and those other things. 
 
 Q. Did you see any chromos or pictures of the kind of houses they 
 were to have ?—A. No, sir; I did not see any pictures of houses. 
 
 Q. What are the average wages of those kinds of hands in your 
 country ?—A. Labor runs down there according to the hands. I don’t 
 know of any lower wages than $7 a month for a man. They run from 
 $7 to $10, and in some cases, on account of skill, very good hands 
 get $12. 
 
 Q. What else is included with those wages?—A. House, fire-wood, 
 garden patch, and sometimes a potato patch. 
 
 Q. Is there any stint about the land allowed for patches?—A. No, 
 sir, l don’t believe there is. 
 
 Q. A man can have as much land free as his family can attend?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, please explain the situation of your people there with 
 regard to their right to vote and the exercise of their legal rights, 
 whether they enjoy them or not?—A. Well, sir. I think they vote just 
 
312 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 as they please. There is no intimidation there. People may ask them 
 to vote this or that way, but they can vote as they please. 
 
 Q. You mean people electioneer with them the same as they do with 
 white people?—A. Yes, sir; but there is no force about it. 
 
 Q. Is there any restriction put upon their holding public meetings, 
 religions, political, or educational ?—A. No, sir; not at all. 
 
 Q. How is it about education for your race down there?—A. Well, 
 sir, we have a ten months’ system there at this time and the county is 
 divided up into districts, and as a general thing throughout the county 
 they have four and five months’ schools, just as the money is. Some¬ 
 times they can’t get teachers and then they wait until the next session 
 and run seven or eight months. 
 
 Q. They put two sessions into one in that way ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the average session of the schools out in the county ?—A. 
 About four months. 
 
 Q. Are the school-houses convenient for the colored children out there? 
 —A. Yes, sir: sometimes they have to go three or three and a half 
 miles. 
 
 Q. The colored children as a general thing attend the schools more 
 closely, do they not?—A. Yes, sir, to the public schools; because many 
 of the white people won’t send their children to the public schools. They 
 send them to the pay schools. 
 
 Q. Private schools, you mean ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any complaint to make for your people about their treat¬ 
 ment in the courts; will the judges there do them justice?—A. I think 
 whenever parties are convicted I see no discrimination on the part of 
 the judges. Sometimes the colored people do not get their cases through 
 as well as they would if they had money. I think it is the lack of money 
 mostly that makes them lose in court. 
 
 Q. The white rascals, you think, are the smartest in covering up their 
 tracks and in managing their cases?—A. Yes, sir; I am speaking of my 
 county and that is the way of it there. 
 
 Q. So far as you know, and as au honest colored man, give this com¬ 
 mittee your opinion as to whether au honest, industrious colored man 
 can do as well iu North Oaraliua as anywhere else that you know of.— 
 A. I think an industrious, sober man can always do very well there. 
 Some advantage is sometimes taken of ignorant colored men. Some¬ 
 times they buy land and when they get it nearly all paid for and go to 
 the records they find they can get no title to it. 
 
 Q. Isn’t an ignorant, poor white man in the same predicament often ? 
 —A. Y"es, sir; they are. I have often said that the poor whites and the 
 poor colored people were all in the same dish. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you not punish men iu North Carolina who swindle other per* 
 sous by void titles?—A. YYs, sir; but then every man who buys has 
 the privilege to go and see to his titles by the registry of deeds. 
 
 Q. Of course, I understand that, but what I wanted to know is 
 whether instances of the kind you mention are never punished in North 
 Carolina ?—A. I haven’t known of any. They always bring up the plea 
 that the men could go to the records and see for themselves. 
 
 Q. That is no sufficient reply to the crime; but you say you have 
 never known any man to be punished for this sort of imposition?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many instances have you known of this kind ?—A. I know 
 of one south of Kinston. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the colored men who are voters are also 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 313 
 
 owners of land?—A. I think the majority of the voters with us are col¬ 
 ored. 
 
 Q. But what proportion, how many, whether one-tenth, one fourth, or 
 one-hundredth of those who have the right to vote are owners of land, 
 or have homesteads?—A. 1 know from eight to fifteen who own land 
 in our county. 
 
 Q. How many do you know, irrespective of whether they own land,, 
 are voters in your county ?—A. I do not know, sir. I know we have a 
 majority of from 200 to 300. 
 
 Q. And mostly colored ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of more than fifteen colored men who own land in 
 your county ?—A. No, sir; I do not know more than that many. 
 
 Q. 1 suppose in that county there are some fifteen or twenty thousand 
 people?—A. I don’t think there are that many. 
 
 Q. You make your answer about voting in such a way as leads me 
 to suppose you do not tell all about it. Is there anything else, about 
 the counting of the votes for instance, that you have on your mind ?— 
 A. No, sir. All the officers that we are allowed to vote for we generally 
 elect. 
 
 Q. What officers are elected iu the county ?—A. The sheriff, the reg¬ 
 ister of deeds and the clerk of the superior court, the coroner, and 1 be¬ 
 lieve we all go for the surveyor, Democrats and Republicans alike. The 
 county treasurer is also elected. 
 
 Q. How is it about your representatives in the legislature ? IJow are 
 they chosen ?—A. We vote for them. 
 
 Q. You choose a county delegation to your legislature?—A. Yes, sir; 
 and we generally elect a Republican. 
 
 Q. Don’t you elect but one ?—A. That is all. 
 
 Q. And you get a Republican?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is lie chosen for one,-two, or four years ?—A. For two years. 
 
 Q. Then you do get your Republican representative ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What other officers are there iu the county ?—A. The magistrates 
 we do not vote for. 
 
 Q. How do you come by your magistrates ?—A. They are appointed. 
 
 Q. How?—A. By the legislature. 
 
 Q. Are they Republicans or Democrats ?—A. They are Democrats. 
 
 Q. What are the other officers that you have?—A. County commis¬ 
 sioners. 
 
 Q. They are appointed in the same way ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What others, still ?—A. Judges of the inferior courts. 
 
 Q. How do you come by them?—A. Through the county commis¬ 
 sioners. 
 
 Q. Then the legislature elects the commissioners, and they appoint 
 the judges?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then it comes to this, that Democrats value and assess property for 
 taxes, and that the laws are administered by Democrats, and the only 
 officers you Republicans get are officers who simply carry out the direc¬ 
 tions of the Democratic office-holders ?—A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And that in a county that is largely Republican?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So, under this change, it does not make much difference to you 
 whether you vote or not?—A. No, sir; so far as those officers are con¬ 
 cerned. We would like to vote for all our officers if we could be allowed 
 to. 
 
 Q. Of how many judges does the supreme court consist ?—A. I can’t 
 say. That is the highest court. The judges of the superior court, we 
 elect them. 
 
314 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. How are they elected ?—A. By districts. 
 
 Q. Taking the State together, how many of them are there ?—A. I 
 disremember whether it is nine or not, but I think there are nine judicial 
 districts. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many of them are Republicans ?—A. I do not 
 know but one, sir, at present. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. There are Seymour and Buckstone, are there not?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 Seymour is in there. He was elected in our district, but that don’t do 
 us much good, as they have to change around. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. How many judges do you say comprise the supreme court?—A. 
 There are three of them, I think. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. And they are elected?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you know the political sentiments of the supreme court ?—A. 
 I do not. 
 
 Q. Jn speaking of the schools you said something about private schools 
 and that many white men will not send their children to the public 
 schools; do you mean to say there is any prejudice ou the part of these 
 people against public schools?—A. I suppose it is because they think 
 they are able to pay for their children’s schooling and so send to them. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. The private schools are generally better than the public schools ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And hence are preferred by those who can afford to pay ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; that is the way of it. 
 
 On motion the committee stood adjourned to Wednesday, February 
 11, 1880, at 10 a. m. 
 
 THIRTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Wednesday, February 11, 1880. 
 
 The committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to its order of adjournment, 
 and proceeded with the taking of testimony. 
 
 Present, the chairman and all the members of the committee. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF F. B. LOFTIN. • 
 
 F. B. Loftin was sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. In North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What is the place of your residence in North Carolina?—A. My 
 residence is in Kinston, Lenoir County, North Caroliua. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am an attorney at law. 
 
 Q. What counties do you practice in ?—A. In the counties of Lenoir, 
 Greene, and Jones, and occasionally in Wayne and Craig. 
 
 Q. 1 have called upon you to testify in regard to the treatment of the 
 colored people in the circle of your practice in the courts. You have had 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 315 
 
 some criminal practice?—A. Yes, sir; I have bad, since I have been 
 practicing, quite an extensive criminal practice, particularly in Jones 
 and Greene Counties, and a good deal of opportunity to observe the 
 courts there. I can state to the committee that so far as I have been 
 able to observe, 1 have known no distinction made between the-white 
 and colored man. We have gentlemen of learning and eminence for 
 judges, and who administer our Jaw impartially, I think, between the 
 white and colored man. I have never noticed any distinction on account 
 of race or color. 
 
 Q. Have you colored men on the juries down there ?—A. Yes, sir; 
 we have. They are permitted to sit on juries without any discrimina¬ 
 tion whatever. 
 
 Q. It has been said here that more white men than colored men go 
 free in proportion to the number indicted for offenses. How is that?— 
 A. My observation is, that more white men who are indicted are con¬ 
 victed than colored men. I have noticed that where a white man is 
 arraigned for larceny, or a felony, as his social condition is more affected 
 than the negro’s, and I think the juries are more severe on them than 
 on the negroes. 1 remember a case at the last inferior court, where 
 a colored man appeared for a colored man, and the argument he made 
 to the jury was that they were to try him the same as they would a 
 white man ; and when the judge came to charge the jury he reiterated 
 that part of the counsel’s argument, and said they were to liud the f.icts, 
 and try him by the same rules as they would a wlr.te man. 
 
 Q. You are not a farmer yourself, but your father is?—A. Yes, sir; 
 he is a tolerably large farmer. He owns some two thousand acres ot 
 land. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of farming operations in that section as 
 affecting these people?—A. They work on there very smoothly. We 
 have had no trouble with them, but this exodus movement is affecting 
 labor with my father some. He talks over his business to me and tells 
 me about it. He usually makes contracts on the 1st of January, and 
 this January, at the middle of the month he had not rented any land or 
 made a contract. He ran off two or three families on that account be¬ 
 fore lie could make contracts with the others. 
 
 Q. You mean he made them leave unless they would make contracts ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you whether there is any political persecution, violence, 
 or anything of that kind influencing them to leave there ?—A. I have no 
 hesitancy iu saying that they vote just as freely and without compulsion 
 as they could desire, so far as the white people are concerned. They 
 vote very nearly the same way, and the only thing I have seen to fore¬ 
 stall their action is when a colored man tries to prevent another col¬ 
 ored man from voting. 
 
 Q. They don’t allow him to vote the Democratic ticket ?—A. No, sir; 
 they don’t respect him afterward, if he does. I have seen violence of 
 fered between themselves, but have seen nobody hurt. I know my father 
 had a waiting boy and I had a very particular friend who was running 
 for the legislature and I wanted the boy to vote for him. He said be¬ 
 fore the election that he would do it, but on the day of the election he 
 came and told me that the colored people were all mad and he could 
 not doit. I said, “All right,” and he voted the full Republican ticket. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any men discharging their croppers or worknu n 
 for not voting the Democratic ticket?—A. No, sir; 1 haven’t heard of 
 any case of that kind. When politics are running high about election 
 time they talk that way—some violent men do, but after the election it 
 
316 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 all passes off. I will cite an instance in our town. Our barbers are all 
 colored men and vote the Republican ticket. We were trying to elect 
 our senator, but could not do it. Some parties got angry at the colored 
 barbers and one man sent oft' after a white barber. One came there and 
 set up, but pretty soon they wouldn’t patronize him and he had to leave. 
 
 I do not think the better part of our people were iu favor of any such 
 move as that. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. To what extent does your father tell you this disturbance of his 
 labor exists?—A. It is very general among his hands. 
 
 Q. How many hands does he employ?—A. I believe he works a four 
 or live horse farm—thirty acres to the horse ; I know he works that 
 much. 
 
 Q. How many hands would that require ?—A. From seven or eight 
 to ten hands. 
 
 Q. Theu he rents some of his land?—A. Yes, sir; the principal por¬ 
 tion of his land is rented. 
 
 Q. And this disturbance of labor exists quite generally ?—A. Among 
 his hands it is very general. 
 
 Q. You know of no reason why that is true of his hands more than 
 of others?—A. I have heard of others in the same fix. 
 
 Q. There is no reason why your father’s hands should complain more 
 than those of others?—A. No, sir; but I think, from what I have 
 heard, they were pretty generally stirred up by this Indiana movement. 
 
 Q. Is the movement increasing or decreasing ?—A. It is very gen¬ 
 erally passing away. 
 
 Q. You have no reason to think it will be in existence a year from 
 now?—A. I think not. I think the colored people in our county are 
 well treated, and where they are industrious and honest they accumu¬ 
 late something. 
 
 Q. Are they generally well satisfied ?—A. I think they are, or were 
 until I first heard of this movement last September. 
 
 Q. Have you come in contact personally with any of the negroes, 
 and learned their reasons for emigrating ?—A. No, sir; I have not had 
 one of them to tell me. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether this is a political move or not ; whether 
 the Republican party down there has encouraged it?—A. I think this 
 movement was gotten up by this fellow Perry and others. He is a 
 very violent Republican down there. He spoke right in front of my 
 office, on the court-house green, and told the colored people they were, 
 outraged by the white people and cheated and all that. 
 
 Q. Do you think he was talking for himself, or do you think the Re¬ 
 publican party iu North Carolina encouraged this movement?—A. I 
 do not know of anything of the kind. All I know about that part of it 
 I got from newspapers. 
 
 Q. All the testimony we have had here has been to the effect that the 
 Republican press of the State was strongly opposed to it.—A. I know 
 the white Republicans of our county haven’t favored it- The white men 
 of the Republican party are opposed to it. 
 
 Q. There are not many of them ?—A. No, sir; our sheriff is one of 
 the leading Republicans—James K. Davis. There are also W. W. 
 Hunter, our clerk, and our register, and a Republican justice of the 
 peace by the name of Coleman. 
 
 Q. These men are all opposed to it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they depend upon the colored Republicans for their votes ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 317 
 
 Q. They would hardly encourage the emigration of their own sup¬ 
 porters, would they?—A. Those who are there I ain satisfied are 
 against it. 
 
 Q. Then the leading Republicans, white and black, in North Carolina 
 are opposed to it ?—A. Yes, sir ; that is my judgment. 
 
 Q. Can you mention a prominent Republican, white or colored, who 
 is in favor of the exodus?—A. Well, I can mention this negro, Perry. 
 
 Q. Do you look upon him as a leading Republican?—A. Any negro 
 who speaks much gets to be a leader with them. 
 
 Q. Do you recognize him as, in any sense, a leader of Republican sen 
 timent?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Is his movement, then, a political one, or a scheme to accumulate 
 a little money for himself?—A. I think his principal object was to make 
 money. 
 
 Q. Do you know any way in which he is aided by political influence? 
 —A. No, sir; I have heard that the railroads pay him something, and 
 that he had a society that paid him something. 
 
 Q. I meant to ask you whether Perry was trying to promote his own 
 interests by it, pecuniarily or politically ?—A. Pecuniarily ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. \ r ou spoke of some case in court, and of the lawyer cautioning the 
 jury to try the colored man by the same rules they would a white man, 
 and that the judge reiterated the remark—how was that?—A. Yes, 
 sir; that was it. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be necessary to remind them of that, and 
 ask the same justice for him as for a white man, if there were not some 
 prejudice usually among juries against colored men on trial ?—A. No, 
 sir. I think that was a case of overzeal on the part of his counsel. 
 
 Q. And the court in its overzeal reiterated it?—A. Yes, sir. I think 
 it was unnecessary for counsel to have made it. 
 
 Q. Why, then, were you particular to remark that the judge repeated 
 it?—A. I made that remark to show that our courts eudeavor to pre¬ 
 vent any differences between white men and colored men. 
 
 Q. Then it was a sort of vague sentimental statement of an abstrac¬ 
 tion ?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. H. RUSSELL. 
 
 J. H. Russell was sworn and examined, as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Russell, where do you live?—Answer. Indianapolis, 
 Indiana. 
 
 Q. What business are you engaged in ?—A. In the undertaking and 
 livery business, and running a hack and transfer line. 
 
 Q, You are in the “ undertaking 71 business—that is, you bury people? 
 —A. \ r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you live at Indianapolis, and are an undertaker by occupa¬ 
 tion ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I wish you would state to this committee about how many of these 
 North Carolina emigrants you have buried since they commenced com¬ 
 ing there to Indianapolis?—A. Up to the 28th of January, I think we 
 buried from twenty-five to thirty. 
 
 Q. What were they; men, women, and children?—A. Mixed; some 
 men and some women and children, but mostly children. 
 
 Q. In what space of time did you bury twenty-five or thirty ?—A. 
 
318 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 From the time my attention was first called to it—say seven weeks to 
 two months—the 1st of December to the 28th of January. 
 
 Q. in two months you buried this number"?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in this undertaking business?—A. 
 About twenty months. 
 
 Q. Supposing there were one thousand to twelve hundred of these 
 people who remained in Indianapolis, would that be an ordinary or un¬ 
 usual per cent, of mortality for that time ?—A. It would bean unusual 
 mortality among that number of people. 
 
 Q. Wh it is the average in your city?—A. We have oue hundred and 
 seven thousand (107,000) population, and our average death rate is 
 twenty seven (27) a week. 
 
 Q. State whether Marion County, in which Indianapolis is located, em¬ 
 ploys a county undertaker to bury the poor, charging the expense to the 
 public ?—A. That is the contract; we have it. 
 
 Q. You are county undertaker?—A. County and city both. 
 
 Q. How many of these North Carolina folks did you bury as paupers? 
 —A. Every one of them. 
 
 Q. They were all buried as paupers?—A. Yes, sir; every one. 
 
 Q. Were they charged to the charity of the city or the county?—A. 
 Of the county. The city only pays for those dying in the hospital and 
 the station-houses. The county pays where they die otherwise, and in 
 public institutions. 
 
 Q. What is the expense of burying one of these paupers ?—A. Five 
 dollars and fifteen cents—grave and everything. 
 
 Q. Is that cheap or not ?—A. Yes, sir; very. They get no carriage 
 or hearse ; nothing but a plain box. 
 
 Q. And have no religious services?—A. No, sir; unless it is before 
 we take the box there. That is the general way. 
 
 Q. What were the causes of the deaths of these people?—A. Diph¬ 
 theria and scarlet fever principally. Their difficulty was in not being 
 acclimated. Some of them died with pneumonia. 
 
 Q. What was the condition, generally, of these people ?—A. I did not 
 go mysell; but my men reported each family. 
 
 Q. What opinion of them did you derive from the reports?—A. They 
 reported it bad in most every case. In some houses with only two or 
 three rooms, there were ten or fifteen people together. They have no 
 furniture and make their scanty beds on the floor, and all their general 
 surroundings indicate poverty. One case of death in the southern part 
 of the city occurred along in January. A family of nine—seven children 
 and man and wife—had nothing at all except a pile of straw in a corner 
 and one old comfort to cover them. One of the children was taken sick 
 and died before they let it be known. 
 
 Q. Did you receive this as a report from your men ?—A. Y r es, sir ; and 
 I afterwards went down myself to see the destitution of those people. 
 
 Q. Did you take some steps to help them?—A. Yes, sir; we did. 
 
 Q. You are a Democrat?—A. I am not radical in any way. If I have 
 any special friend in any way I vote for him, but I generally vote the 
 Democratic ticket. 
 
 Q. What is your firm ?—A. It is under the name of J. H, Eussell 
 & (Jo. 
 
 Q. You are pretty well mixed in politics?—A. No, sir; not particu¬ 
 larly. 
 
 Q. What do think of there being a demand out there for these sort of 
 people ?—A. There is none whatever. 
 
 Q. Doesn’t it seem to you, with your knowledge of their condition, a 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 319 
 
 shame and an outrage to encourage them to come out there?—A. Yes, 
 sir : not only upon them, but upon the people—the tax payers. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it a great outrage upon the poor negroes?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it a fact that there has been a large number ot idle people in 
 our State and actual suffering among them for want of employmeut dur¬ 
 ing several years past?—A. Yes, sir; and old residents, too. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it true that men in all kinds of business, even now, are being 
 constantly applied to for work ?—A. There is a surplus of labor in Marion 
 County at all seasons of the year. 
 
 Q. And you know of no demand for farm labor?—A. Farmers com¬ 
 plain of being applied to too much and of having to keep and feed men 
 who come destitute and asking for work. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. I suppose you find the mortality in Indianapolis usually larger 
 among poor people than others in the winter season?—A. Not in those 
 months I mentioned. 
 
 Q. In what months do you have the most deaths?—A. We usually 
 have them in June, July, and August, and in October and November. 
 
 Q. What are the causes?—A. They are the changes of the weather 
 at that time of the year. 
 
 Q. Have you a poorer class there who are subject to more deaths in 
 the winter than another?—A. The winter and poverty might increase 
 the rate a little. 
 
 Q. There is such a class there as I have spoken of ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think cold and hunger tend to increase the death rate? 
 —A. My experience is that we have a larger death rate at other seasons 
 of the year. 
 
 Q. Taking the poor-—the paupers—don’t you think the mortality is 
 greater with that class in the winter time?—A. No, sir; I have had the 
 contract for two years and I know our bills run up to larger amounts in 
 the summer time. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it true that the mortality is greater, as a rule, among the poor 
 and destitute than among the well-to-do people who are able to attend 
 to their sanitary condition and have physicians ?—A. Those things might 
 have effect upon the number. 
 
 Q. So you would expect to find amoug the poorer classes a greater 
 number of deaths at any season?—A. Yes, sir; in proportion. 
 
 Q. You say you have buried twenty-five or thirty of these immigrants? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that the full number who have died ?—A. I said since my atten¬ 
 tion was first called to the fact by my men that they were immigrants 
 we were burying. 
 
 Q. Perhaps they mentioned it about the first case they had?—A. No, 
 sir; not the very first, probably. 
 
 Q. You do not suppose there were many more than twenty-five?—A. 
 There might have been three or four more. 
 
 Q. Possibly thirty, in all ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I)o you know how many emigrants came to Indiana ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There were a good many women and children among them?—A. 
 l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And they were all poor?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they come as laborers in search of w T ork ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were any of them distributed amoug the farmers?—A. Yes, sir; 
 there are a great many of them distributed. 
 
 Q. Do you kuow T how they are doing—those who got work?—A. We 
 
320 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 get reports that they are not doing very much. The people do not like 
 them as laborers. 
 
 Q. Then Perry is about right when he thinks, for the negroes u Indi¬ 
 ana is worse than hell”—or words to that effect!—A. No, sir; we don’t 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Haven’t yon heard that they find Indiana that sort of locality that 
 Perry thinks it to be!—A. No, sir. Those who came there expected to 
 find something great ready for them and were disappointed. 
 
 Q. They have been badly disappointed!—A. Yes, sir. We have plenty 
 of men out there and no work for them. 
 
 Q. Do you find a general desire among them to get back !—A. A great 
 many do, for the reason that they have been deceived in being brought 
 there. 
 
 Q. Is there any general desire among the people to have this immi¬ 
 gration increase!—A. No, sir; I think not, outside of the politicians. 
 
 Q. Who of the politicians do you think are at the bottom of it !—A. I 
 think such men as John C. New and Martiudale. 
 
 Q. They are leaders of the Republican party !—A. Yes, sir ; but they 
 stay in the background and use “ Cy ” Reynolds as a tool. 
 
 Q. How do you know that!—A. From conversations I have heard. 
 
 Q. Have you heard Mr. New say anything about it!—A. No, sir; I 
 have not talked to him personally. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of this movement on public sentiment?—A. 
 The public are against it, because these people are poor and have to live 
 on the charity of the county. 
 
 Q. Y r ou think Mr. New would incur trouble with his party by doing 
 this thing?—A. Not if he could stay in the background like he has. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think the Republicans will find it out ?—A. No, sir ; not 
 generally. I think some of them do know it, but have not the power to 
 stop it. 
 
 Q. Who have not?—A. Those Republicans who are in active life. 
 
 Q. Nevertheless, you think they will resent it ?—A. I think they will. 
 
 Q. You think he would do that knowing he would lose votes to his 
 party ?—A. I think he would. 
 
 Q. Then you think he is making a brilliant fool of himself?—A. I do 
 not know as to that. 
 
 Q. You are a Democrat?—A. I am not a Radical. 
 
 Q. The Democrats are anxious that he should go on and do this thing ? 
 —A. No, sir ; we are not. 
 
 Q. Yours is a pretty close State?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have close and severe political fights there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think it is possible if the Democrats saw New and other 
 leading Republicans doing things to injure their party these Democrats 
 would want it done ?—A. If it was a general thing it might do, but it is 
 only done in certaiu localities. 
 
 Q. Rut they are anxious for it if it can be pretty well known ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. And you think this movement is going to hurt the Republican 
 party ?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think the Democrats are willing to see the Republican 
 party injured?—A. Well, sir, we don’t like to have these people there on 
 any terms. 
 
 Q. You have been paid over one hundred dollars for burying these 
 people ?—A. Yes, sir; about that. 
 
 Q. Do you think they are generally earning a living?—A. No, sir; I 
 do not think they could live there at the wages they would receive. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 321 
 
 They can live down South where the people understand them and live 
 much better. 
 
 Q. Well, as I understand you, here is a movement that is directly to 
 the injury of the Republican party, and yet you Democrats are opposed 
 to it?—A. My idea is that the Democratic party is opposing it because 
 it is to the injury of the tax payers. 
 
 Q. Don’t they want it kept up to injure the Republican party?—A. 
 No, sir ; I don’t think so. 
 
 Q. They do not?—A. No, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF SCOTT RAY. 
 
 Scott Ray was sworn, and testified as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. Shelbyville, Ind. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. I am a lawyer, and editor of the 
 Shelby Democrat-Volunteer. 
 
 Q. Mr. Ray, you may state to this committee whether you know of 
 any North Carolina emigrants coming into your county recently, under 
 this emigration movement ?—A. Yes, sir ; some time this winter there 
 was, I presume, 25 or 30 that came into Shelbyville. 
 
 Q. Are you advised of the purpose of this emigration, any further 
 than their coming to your county ?—A. No, sir; I caunot say that I am 
 directly. 
 
 Q. State what demand is there for the labor of these emigrants.—A. 
 I think there is no demand there at all, for I think we have enough 
 laborers there to supply all the demand—more, iu fact, than is necessary 
 to supply it. 
 
 Q. Do you know the condition and the employment of these emigrants 
 at the time you came away from home?—A. The last I heard from them 
 they were huddled together in a little hut on the side of the city, and 
 living on the charity of the people, out of wood and with very little to 
 eat. 
 
 Q. How many were in that house, did you understand?—A. I think 
 all were there, or nearly all. 
 
 Q. Nearly all the 25 ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many rooms were in that house ?—A. I do not know, sir ; it 
 is a little cabin, and 1 think it has only one room. 
 
 Q. How are they being taken care of ?—A. I think they were on the 
 charity of the people there. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that sort which depends upon individual giving or 
 upon public charity ?—A. Individual charity. 
 
 Q. Then there has been no official charity extended to them yet ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Those sort of people generally get into the poor-house, do they 
 not ?—A. Yes, sir ; that is the result, 1 believe, generally. 
 
 Q. Under the laws of Indiana there is a couuty poor-house in each 
 county, is there not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where those who cannot find employment, and have nothing to 
 live on, can go?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind of people are those ?—A. I think they are all women 
 and children, except lour or five. 
 
 Q. Have the men got employment ?—A. They are trying to get em- 
 21 EX 
 
322 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 ployment about the town at sawing wood and doing the best they can 
 at odd jobs. 
 
 Q. Before these people came was there any symptom or any talk of 
 any movement to invite them to come to your place ?—A. No, sir; there 
 was no invitation from anyone in our town. 
 
 Q. Is there a Republican newspaper in your place?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is it called?—A. The Republican. 
 
 Q. Has it discouraged their coming ?■—A. No, sir; but rather encour¬ 
 aged it by holding out the impression that there was plenty of work to 
 do, and all that. 
 
 Q. Mr. Ray, have you ever had any conversation with or heard him 
 say anything about this matter—I mean the chairman of the Republican 
 County Committee of Shelby County?—A. Yes, sir; I had a conversa¬ 
 tion with Captain Byers. He has been the chairman of the Republican 
 county committee until within the last few days. 
 
 Q. What is his name?—A. Captain Henry S. Byers. 
 
 Q. You say he has been, up to within a lew days, the chairman of the 
 Republican county committee?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what conversation > ou had with him on the subject.—-A. I 
 had a conversation witli him that day, which I reduced afterward to 
 writing that same evening. 
 
 Q. Have you it with you ?—A. I believe I have. 
 
 Q. AYill you please produce it? 
 
 |The witness produced a paper.] 
 
 The Chairman. If you wish it, you can give it to the committee in 
 the form as you have it there. Was he at that time the chairman of 
 the county Republican committee ? 
 
 The Witness. I think they had appointed his successor on the Friday 
 previous, and this was on the following Sunday evening. 
 
 Q. Captain Byers is a man of character and respectability, is he not? 
 —A. Yes ; he is one of the leading Republicans of our county, and very 
 generally esteemed. 
 
 Q„ What is his age ?—A. I suppose 38 years. 
 
 Q. Did he ever hold any official position in your county ?—A. No, sir ; 
 not in our county. 
 
 Q. It is rather difficult for a Republican to hold office in your county, 
 is it not?—A. Yes, sir; our county is pretty solidly Democratic. 
 
 Q. Now, will you please read that paper. 
 
 The witness read the paper as follows: 
 
 “I had a conversation with Captain Henry S. Byers, ex chairman of 
 the Republican Central Committee of Shelby County, lud., on Sunday 
 night, January 25, 1880, in the city of Shelbyville, in the presence of 
 Edward Small and George M. Colliding, two of the leading merchants 
 of the city, in which Mr. Byers said : 4 There is no disguising the fact, 
 Ray ; the exodus movement of the colored men to Indiana is a political 
 movement of the Republican party, as 1 know it to be a fact. We in¬ 
 tend to carry Indiana with the aid of the negro vote, and if the Repub¬ 
 lican party had taken my advice six years ago, they would have set the 
 movement on foot and brought them here long ago. We intend to 
 bring 8,000 of them into the State in time for them to vote this fall, and 
 will place them in the close congressional districts and into the close 
 couuties of Indiana. While it is rather expensive, it is cheaper for the 
 party than to be compelled to buy votes on the day of election, as we 
 have always had to do.’ I asked him if we was in a position to know 
 whether it was an organized effort on the part of the Republican man¬ 
 agers to bring them into the State for political purposes, and he said he 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 323 
 
 was, and then produced a letter with the heading of the Republican 
 State central committee printed upon it, but refused to read its contents. 
 I asked him if he had contributed any money for the purpose of bring¬ 
 ing the negroes who had lately come into Shelby County, and he replied : 
 
 4 Yes ; I contributed all I was able to contribute.’ Mr. Byers for several 
 years has been one of the leading Republicans in Shelby County, and 
 for several years has been its chairmen.” 
 
 Q. Who was that made in the presence of, what parties ?—A. Mr. 
 George W. Goulding, a leading clothing merchant in our town, and Mr. 
 Edward Small. 
 
 Q. What is Small’s occupation ?—A. lie is a confectioner, and sells 
 newspapers and cigars, and has been there for a number of years. Both 
 of them are men of high character and standing. 
 
 Q. You say that Captain Byers produced a paper with the State cen¬ 
 tral committee’s printed heading on it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much of the letter did you see ?—A. No more than the head¬ 
 ing. When I asked him if he was in a position to know whether this 
 was a Republican movement or not, he pulled the letter out and showed 
 it to me, but he did not let me see the contents of it. 
 
 Q. But he was thereby making the impression upon you that he was in 
 communication with headquarters upon this subject ?—A. That was the 
 impression I thought he intended to convey. 
 
 Q. How far is Shelbyville from Indianapolis?—A. Twenty-five miles. 
 
 Q. What do you know of the object of the coming of those negroes to 
 Shelbyville?—A. When those negroes came to Shelbyville I met one of 
 them, and he had a card, or a little slip of paper, with the name of a 
 prominent Republican upon it. 
 
 Q. Who was that ?—A. George M. Wright. 
 
 Q. Where did this negro tell you he came from?—A. From North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. Where did he tell you he got Mr. Wright’s name from ?—A. He 
 did not tell me. 
 
 Q. He came with this party of emigrants, did he ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with any of them besides him ?—A. Yes, s : r; I had 
 a talk with some of the women the same day they got there. 
 
 Q. What is this about a mob or a riot in your town that we have heard 
 of? There has been some talk here about it.—A. I was not there myself, 
 but I took occasion to inform myself concerning it, and I ascertained that 
 there was no mob and no riot, but there had been some outrages, and 
 sensational reports had been sent to the Cincinnati Gazette and Indian¬ 
 apolis Journal concerning an alleged mob in Shelbyville ; I suppose sent 
 there for political effect. 
 
 Q. But there was, however, a strong feeling in the community against 
 the coming of these emigrants?—A. Yes, sir • but it did not break out 
 in the form of mobs or any other violence. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. So you think the negro can go to Indiana and exercise his politi¬ 
 cal rights without being subjected to mob violence and the interference 
 of the ku-klux ?—A. Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. Indiana is better in that respect for them than some parts of the 
 South ?—A. I do not know as to that. 
 
 Q. It is a fact, though, that the negro can go there and exercise his 
 political rights?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As to this alleged riot, as you term it, in your town, Mr. Ray, 
 please state what the circumstances were ?—A. Well, sir, after this first 
 
324 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 batch of negroes arrived at Shelbyville, word reached the city by tele¬ 
 graph from Cincinnati, that there was another car load coining to Shel¬ 
 byville. Our folks were very indignant about it, and quite a number, 
 probably 25 or more, went down to the depot to see who were coming, 
 and how many got off at Shelbyville. That was the extent, and that 
 was their intent, as I understand it. 
 
 Q. From whom did you understand it?—A. That was the information 
 which I gathered from parties who were there, and who composed some 
 of the best citizens of the place. 
 
 Q. And that you understood was the whole extent of their actions?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any negroes come at that time ?—A. I think there were some 
 who passed through, but they did not stop ; they were checked through 
 to Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. There was no intention, then, among them to stop there?—A. No, 
 sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. But the train stopped there, did it not?—A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did these 15 or 20 citizens go in and look over these emigrants in 
 the train ?—A. No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. They simply went there and looked over the train, and stood 
 around like other people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it was not a very serious matter after all ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You sav that there was 15 or 20 of them that went down there ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; and among them were some very respectable people. 
 
 Q. You have with you here a written conversation between yourself 
 and Captain Byers?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. 1 see that it is a very recent date, the 25th of January ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. It is pretty generally known out there that this investigation is go¬ 
 ing on here ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it a matter of common knowledge to your people ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you know that Captain Byers knows about it ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 1 suppose so. 
 
 Q. And he knows that it has been charged here that this is a Repub- 
 can movement ?—A. Yes, sir ; if he has been reading the newspapers, I 
 suppose he does. 
 
 Q. Do you think that such facts as he told in that conversation would, 
 if generally diffused through Indiana, help the Republican party very 
 considerably ? If it were known that the Republican party as indi¬ 
 vidual politicians, or as a party, were raising money to bring colored 
 people there to carry the State and swamp the Democratic party, what 
 tendency do you think that information would have upon the prospects 
 of the Republican party generally?—A. I think it would have a ten¬ 
 dency to hurt the party. 
 
 Q. And especially when he can claim these people are poor, and not 
 only curse citizens by coming, but curse the State?—A. Yes, sir; they 
 are no benefit to the State. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Ray, as an intelligent man, do you think that Captain 
 Byers would communicate to you facts like these, knowing you to be a 
 Democrat ?—A. Well, sir, the captain is a very frank man, and he often 
 puts me in possession of facts about his party which I otherwise could 
 not obtain. He has frequently given me information of that kind. 
 
 Q. Did you think, at the time you had this conversation, that you 
 were going up as a witness before this committee ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you thought you would talk with him, and hear what he had 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 325 
 
 to say ?—A. I thought I would talk to him, and if he said anything that 
 I thought important I would use it. 
 
 Q. And you secured that conversation and committed it to paper for 
 use before this committee. 
 
 The Chairman. 1 wish to state here that I did not know anything of 
 the paper whatever. 
 
 The Witness. No, sir; I never showed it to you. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. I see from your statement that this man says they were going to 
 introduce 8,000 negroes into the State before the next election ; now, 
 how long a residence has a man got to have before he votes in Indiana ? 
 —A. Six mouths. 
 
 Q. The election is to occur next November ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And do you believe, as an intelligent man, that they are coming 
 there ?—A. I do. There are 2,000 or 3,000 there now. 
 
 Q. Not all voters, are they ?—A. No, sir; they are not all voters. 
 
 Q. Perhaps three-fourths of them are women and children, are they 
 not*?—A. No, sir; I think probably two thirds. 
 
 Q. Tlie great mass of them, then, do not come there for the purpose of 
 voting ?—A. Of course, the women and children cannot vote. 
 
 Q Now, if the Republicans ever intend getting control of the State, 
 don’t you think they are acting very foolish to bring in three persons 
 who are not voters in order to get one who can vote ?—A. I do not think 
 the original intention was to bring these women into the State. I think 
 they thought they would bring in the men, and it has siuce turned out 
 that the men would not come unless the women and children accompa¬ 
 nied them. 
 
 Q. And you think that they are really going to bring them in there? 
 —A. Yes, sir; I think they will get enough in there if they can. 
 
 Q. How many colored Republicans do you think they would have to 
 bring into the State of Indiana to break up the Democratic majority ?— 
 A. Eight or ten thousand. 
 
 Q. Then you do not think that this importation of voters is likely to 
 cause much defection from the Republican party ?—A. I thiuk it has a 
 tendency to drive the poor white men from the Republican party into 
 the Democratic party. 
 
 Q. What is the Democratic majority in the State on a popular vote ? 
 —A. I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. It is pretty nearly even, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is more than 5,000 or 0,000 majority ?—xY 1 think 
 it is about that. 
 
 Q. And you think the Republicans, between now and the 1st of May, 
 are going to brink 8,000 colored Republicans there from other States for 
 the purpose of carrying the State in the interest of the Republican 
 party ?—A. I think they are going to bring them there and try it. 
 
 Q. And you base that statement on this statement of Byers ?—A. Yes, 
 sir, partly; and this gentleman who is at the head of the emigrant 
 society here in Washington, Mr. Holland, I believe, who testified, said 
 he was going to enter into the movement with greater vigor, and send 
 all the people he could to Indiana. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the Republicans there believe that there is a 
 legitimate demand for the emigration of white and colored people to In¬ 
 diana, and that they are glad to receive any emigrants who desire to 
 come, and the negro being a natural Republican, they desire to have 
 these men come more than any other?—A. No, sir I think the Repub- 
 
326 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 lican party is actuated by the very worst of motives in carrying out 
 this scheme. I think they are bringing them into our State for a polit¬ 
 ical purpose. 
 
 Q. Do you think they are bringing them in there for a political pur¬ 
 pose ?—A. Yes, sir; I think they would do almost anything. 
 
 Q. What, this party of high moral ideas?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think these Republicans are doing this thing—paying the 
 way of these negroes, and helping them along for six or eight months, 
 from the very worst of motives ?—A. I think it is for a political purpose, 
 and I do not think it is done without any regard for the condition of the 
 negro himself or his material welfare and benefit. 
 
 Q. Do you have any feeling against men coming in there and voting 
 the Democratic ticket?—A. I would not object to it. 
 
 Q. You would not object, but you do not want them to come there, 
 even if they vote the Democratic ticket, since there is a surfeit of labor, 
 do you ?—A. I think if a man wants to come into the State, and wants 
 to vote the Democratic ticket, it is all right. 
 
 Q. And if a good Republican editor says he is willing for a man to 
 come in there and voting the Republican ticket, how about that?—A. 
 I think that is all right. 
 
 Q. Are you willing for the laboring people to come into the State— 
 the poor people, even—if they vote the Democratic ticket ?—A. I do not 
 think they would do very well to come in there; as I say, the State is 
 full of laboring people, sufficient to meet all the present demands. 
 
 Q. Y r ou mean until business starts again—that times are dull there ?— 
 A. Well, sir, we have got plenty of labor to do all that is required at all 
 seasons of the year. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that Indiana has ceased to be a desirable State 
 for people to emigrate to ?—A. I said it in this way, that I think there 
 is enough there to till the soil and supply all the present demand for 
 workingmen. 
 
 Q. Then, as a Democratic editor, if you were to write anything for 
 publication in your paper on this subject, you would say to the laboring 
 people of this country and the world, “ Do not come to Indiana,” would 
 you not?—A. No, sir; I would not say that. If I was called upon to 
 express my sentiments on the subject, I would express them just as I 
 have done to you. 
 
 Q. Then, if you were an honest editor, would you not say that ?—A. 
 Well, sir, they could take their choice and chances. 
 
 Q. Is it not your duty as an editor and sentinel of the watch-tower of 
 this journalistic Zion to tell these people all to come there ?—A. No, sir ; 
 I do not think it is part of the duty of the press to do anything of that 
 sort. 
 
 Q. It is against the interest of the people and tax-payers, and if it is 
 to their interest not to have these people come, and to the interest of 
 the people themselves to stay away, do you not think it is your duty to 
 do that?—A. No, sir; 1 do not. 
 
 Q. These gentlemen,Small and Goulding,are both good Democrats?— 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are solid Democrats. 
 
 Q. Was this a prearranged conversation ?—A. No, sir ; it was not. 
 
 Q. Where was it held?—A. It was held in front of Mr. Small’s place. 
 Mr. Byers came up, or rather Mr. Doubling went in to get a cigar, and 
 I suppose Byers came up to do the same thing. 
 
 Q. And you thought it was a good place to put your questions in ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 327 
 
 Q. Do you not think that he was hoodwinking you?—A. No, sir; I 
 think not. 
 
 Q. Well, Republicans are a pretty smart people out there, are they 
 not?—A. Yes, sir; some of them are. 
 
 Q. Might it not be that in this case the biter was being bitten ?—A. 
 No, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. He might have been fooling with you, though?—A. Well, sir, the 
 captain was very serious in what lie said. 
 
 Q. He looked like it, at any rate ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. BAKER. 
 
 James E. Baker was sworn and examined, as follows : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is your occupation, Mr. Baker ?—Answer. I am laud 
 clerk in the auditor of state’s office. 
 
 Q. Where?—A. Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Mr. Baker, you may state if you have given some attention to this 
 movement of colored people into our State.—A. I have, sir. 
 
 Q. About what time was your attention directed to it?—A. About 
 the 18th of October, 1879. 
 
 Q. What directed your attention to it at that time ?—A. There was a 
 party who gave his name as Aaron W. Heath, who was brought to our 
 office as the advance agent of the emigrants from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. A colored man ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What sort of a colored man was he ?—A. Areal sharp, intelligent 
 colored man ; rather above the average, I thought. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is now?—A. No, sir; I saw him last on 
 the 23d of October. 
 
 Q. What did he come to your office for ?—A. He came there for help. 
 He took us for Republicans. 
 
 Q. Who came with him ?—A. Mr. JamesC. Miller, assistant adjutant 
 general. 
 
 Q. Did Miller play Republican on him ?—A. Yes, sir; I think he did. 
 
 Q. Who else was there?—A. Miller and I and the darky. He gave 
 us a statement of his mission there, which we wrote down and took to 
 Hie clerk of the supreme court to be sworn to by him. 
 
 Q. How much conversation did you have with him before that was 
 done?—A. Fully an hour. I spent pretty much a full day with him. 
 
 Q. Look at that (handing witness a paper) and see if that is the state¬ 
 ment he made.—Yes, sir; that is the statement the darky gave us. 
 
 Senator Voorhees, the chairman, read the statement, as follows: 
 
 State of Indiana, 
 
 Marion County, set. : 
 
 I, A. W. Heath, colored, aged 30, being a resident of Kingston, Lenoir County, North 
 Carolina, being duly sworn, say that I left the place of my residence in September, 
 1879, and went to Washington, D. C., when I landed at Washington City October 1, 
 1879; and when I first landed at Washington I inquired for my aunt, Harriet Brooks, 
 and found her, and staid there for one week, being sick. I then went to J. M. Adams, 
 secretary of the emigrant society, 1338 V street, northwest, at Washington City, and 
 he gave me transportation to Indianapolis. Mr. Hawkins, who stays on the second 
 floor of the Treasury building, also advised me to come here. I think Mr. Adams said 
 his home was here. Mr. Adams told me when I got here to apply to Dr. S. R. Elbert, 
 at Indianapolis, Ind. I called on Dr. Elbert; he gave me but little satisfaction. 
 
328 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 He advised me to get a job and go to work here. This did not satisfy me, for the num¬ 
 ber I was hunting homes for would not be benefited by my securing a job for myself. 
 I think the whole colored population—in fact, as many as several hundred—desire to 
 come. I represent a large body that want homes, and as soon as I get places found I 
 am to inform Mr. Adams, and he is to send 10,000 pamphlets to Ohio and Indiana, stat¬ 
 ing the condition of the colored people. We have been instructed to get away from 
 North Carolina by the 1st day of June next, so that the census may show us to belong 
 in Indiana, and not in North Carolina, for if we are taken there the Democrats will 
 elect the Congressmen, and our moving won’t do us any good at all. I am a Republi¬ 
 can, and always have been. I think some 400 or 500 voters from my own neighbor¬ 
 hood are expecting to come. I met this morning in the city of Indianapolis a school 
 teacher (colored) who told me to go and see Mr. Martindale. I went to his room, but 
 he was not in. If I can’t get location for myself and the families that want to come 
 here, I am going to Kansas, even though I have to walk all the way. 
 
 A. W. HEATH. 
 
 Witnesses: 
 
 James E. Baker. 
 
 James Miller. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me this 18th day of October, 1879. 
 
 GABRIEL SCHMUCK, 
 
 Clerk Supreme Court, Indiana. 
 
 Q. Did he write his own name?—A. Yes, sir; and that is his state¬ 
 ment without any coloring, just as he made it. 
 
 Q. This statement was written out by whom ?—A. By me. 
 
 Q. And read over to him ?—A. Yes, sir; after we came to the clerk’s 
 office. 
 
 Q. And these interlineations were put in as he desired the changes 
 made?—A. Yes, sir; he could read writing, and write himself. 
 
 Q. How long were you with him?—A. Nearly the whole day of Sat¬ 
 urday, and then I was with him a while on Monday. 
 
 Q. This was on the 18th of October ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To whom of the prominent men of Indianapolis did you submit 
 this statement when you got it?—A. When I got it in the evening 1 called 
 together Governor Hendricks, Mr. Brown, William Henderson, W. W. 
 Wooten, T. W. Wooten, attorney-general, and Joseph Nichol, of the 
 leading Democrats of Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. You showed it to me, didn’t you ?—A. Yes, sir ; and Senator Mc¬ 
 Donald was present. 
 
 Q. This affidavit was made and shown to Governor Hendricks before 
 he made that speech about the exodus ?—A. Yes, sir ; that was the first 
 affidavit captured in Indiana. 
 
 Q. This man went to Greencastle in a mail car, did he not ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I was there and saw him dropoff. I was there as an advance 
 agent to warn those people of his coming. I saw Mr. Lewman and we 
 went down there to the train, and he (Heath) dropped out of the car. 
 He had a six-quart bucket and an old carpet-bag. 
 
 Q. You saw the paper that Mr. Lewman has testified to, directing 
 him to Rev. Mr. Clay and to Langsdale ?—A. l r es, sir; I saw that. On 
 the back of it was u Holloway, P. M.” He dropped from the train and 
 came up to Lewman and asked him if he would show him to the post- 
 office, and Lewman said u yes,” and that he kept the office. Heath 
 did not recognize me, as I hid my face from him. I did not want him to 
 see me there after having played such a trick on him in Indianapolis just 
 a day or two before. So I kept in the background. 
 
 Q. What did he tell you about seeing Martindale in Indianapolis?— 
 A. He was at the office on Monday and said he was going to see Mar¬ 
 tindale. I suppose the reason he came to our office was that I kept the 
 land office and he had been told he could buy a great deal of land at 
 one dollar and a quarter per acre, with four years to pay for it. He 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 329 
 
 said that he wanted to get homes for these colored people who were 
 coming. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. How old a man was this Mr. Heath ?—A. I should judge between 
 thirty and forty years of age. 
 
 Q. Was he a man of family himself?—A. I did not see any family 
 with him, or ask him about it. 
 
 Q. You say he was an intelligent man ?—A. Yes, sir; really above 
 the ordinary Northern darky. 
 
 Q. He told you his mission as you have stated it?—A. Yes, sir; and 
 he regretted very much that Perry and Williams had gone away the 
 day before. 
 
 Q. He was seeking, he said, to provide homes for his people ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q; What Republicans did he see about it ?—A. He saw Elbert and 
 Martindale, as I understood. 
 
 Q. Hid you direct him to any of them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Miller go with him ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Q. He said he wanted to find these various Republicans; how did 
 you divert him from finding those men?—A. We did not do it. 
 
 Q. He wanted to see those men; how did you prevent his following 
 out his purpose?—A. We did not prevent him. 
 
 Q. You persuaded him?—A. We did not, at all. We were in con¬ 
 versation with him, and he thought he was in the hands of friends. 
 
 Q. How was that?—A. We played Republican on him. 
 
 Q. In what way ?—A. We gave him the ordinary Republican side of 
 the story. 
 
 Q. You and Miller both ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You talked with him all day?—A. Yes, sir; I did. 
 
 Q. And in your assumed capacity as Republicans you got this affi¬ 
 davit?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he thought you were Republicans ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he believes it to this day ?—A. No, sir. He found out differ¬ 
 ently before he got away. 
 
 Q. You are a Democrat ?—A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. And it is the party of “ reform,” and all that?—A. Yes, sir; that 
 is the reason I got that affidavit. My conscience is not smarting me 
 about it at all. 
 
 Q. You say Heath was an intelligent man ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he state the reason why he wanted to bring these people to 
 Indiana or Kansas? Was he making any complaints?—A. No, sir. 
 All lie said was that he was told they could get a house free, cow' and 
 calf, and winter’s provisions for a laborer in Indiana, and could buy 
 land at $1.25 per acre and have four or five years to pay it in. 
 
 Q. He did not bring any of the families with him ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He came to spy out the land?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think he would make a reliable report to his people of the 
 condition of things in Indiana?—A. I do not know, sir, as to that. 
 
 Q. You do not think he would transmit false intelligence to his peo¬ 
 ple who were depending upon him for the truth?—A. I do not desire to 
 express an opinion on it. I think he is an honorable colored man, so 
 far as I know. 
 
 Q. Then, from at least one source, the colored people of the South 
 would be apt to get a proper report ?—A. He did not dwell long in In- 
 
330 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 (liana. He went to Greencastle Monday night, and Tuesday morning, 
 I understand, he was on his weary way to Kansas. 
 
 Q. And all the friends he found in Indiana were Democrats ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; until Monday, when he got into some Republican hands. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is?—A. No, sir. I understand that at 
 Greencastle they made up enough money to ship him to Saint Louis on 
 his way to Kansas. 
 
 Q. Do you know where we can find him, probably?—A. No, sir ; I 
 have not seen him since the 23d of October. Then he was at Green- 
 castle and went away the next day, I understand. 
 
 Q. He did not stay there to be buried by Mr. Russell, then ?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF M. W. STACK. 
 
 M. W. Stack was sworn and examined, as follows : 
 
 Bv the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Mr. Stack, where do you reside ?—Auswer. Terre Haute, 
 Ind. 
 
 Q. What do you do there?—A. I am chief of police of the city of 
 Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed these colored folks coming in there from North 
 Carolina?—A. I have, sir; most of them. 
 
 Q. What is their condition, generally?—A. They are very destitute, 
 the most of those whom 1 have seen. 
 
 Q. What part of them have gotten employment since they reached 
 there ?—A. Very few of them have gotten anything to do, and those 
 who have have not retained it. 
 
 Q. Why is that; if you can state it ?—A. I know from several sources 
 of four or five who had been employed, and in two or three days 
 after had been discharged, and who have had no employment since. I 
 know of others who sought employment for several weeks and who have 
 not been able to find it. Eight or ten of them, perhaps more, have got¬ 
 ten work. 
 
 Q. Do you think, from your intimate knowledge of the laboring classes 
 in Terre Haute, that there is any demand for this destitute labor there ? 
 —A. Not at the present time. 
 
 Q. None at all?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it a fact that we have many people there who are out of work 
 and cannot get it?—A. I think I could to-day command two hundred 
 men at one day’s notice in Terre Haute. I could get that many in twen- 
 ty-lour hours for any kind of work. 
 
 Q. And at pretty low wages?—A. Yes, indeed. 
 
 Q. How is it out in the country ?—A. My knowledge of affairs in the 
 country leads me to thiuk there is nothing doing at this season to cause 
 a demand for this labor. Those who are already there are doing 
 nothing. 
 
 Q. What provision has been made for those emigrants who are not 
 employed? How are they living?—A. There are a few of them who 
 have had a little money, so one of them explained to me, and they rented 
 a house. There are two others who have been there for some two mouths 
 or more, one of whom has bought property and got a home there. These 
 others are scattered around among the colored people where they live, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 331 
 
 and some others have gone to a colored settlement five or six miles in 
 the country. 
 
 Q. To Lost Creek ?—A. Yes, sir; to Lost Creek. 
 
 Q. How did those old settled negroes take this influx of new ones?— 
 A. In conversation with them, they say they do not like it. 
 
 Senator Blair. We have no questions for the witness. 
 
 On motion, the committee thereupon adjourned to Thursday, Febru¬ 
 ary 12, 1880, at 10.30 a. m. 
 
 FOURTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Thursday February 12, 1880. 
 
 The committee met, pursuant to order, at 10.30 a. in., and proceeded 
 with the examination of witnesses. 
 
 Present, the chairman and all the members. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HUGHES EAST. 
 
 Hughes East was sworn and examined as follows : 
 
 By' the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside, Mr. East ?—Answer. At Indianapolis, 
 Ind. . 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in Indianapolis?—A. Nearly five years; 
 will be on the first of May. 
 
 Q. Where did you live before that?—A. At Bloomfield, seventy-five 
 miles west of Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Are you a native of Indiana?—A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Have you lived all your life in the State ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What has been your business ?—A. Since I have been in Indian¬ 
 apolis ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. I have been a grain and provision dealer. 
 
 Q. Now, before you went to Indianapolis?—A. A few years before I 
 left Bloomfield I was in the live-stock trade, and had some warehouses 
 on the railroad, and dealt in pork. Before that I was a county officer. 
 
 Q. Has your attention been called in any way to the arrival of North 
 Carolina negroes in our State recently ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any talk with them ?—A. I have had more or less 
 conversation with some half dozen or more of them. 
 
 Q. Look at that paper (handing a paper to witness) and see if you 
 can identify it.—A. Yes, sir; I recognize it. 
 
 Q. What is it?—A. It is a statement made by one Silas Isler, a col¬ 
 ored man, whom I chanced to meet in the auditor’s office in Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How came he to make it?—A. He came in with one or two others, 
 in company with a young man from the Sentinel, and said he wanted to 
 make a statement, and I wrote this out just as he wanted it. 
 
 Q. Did he approach you on the subject, or you him ?—A. I went down 
 to the office to attend a meeting of citizens to invite Parnell to Indian¬ 
 apolis. I went into the auditor’s office, and soon after these men came 
 in there. I had seen one of them before probably, but not this gentle¬ 
 man who made the statement. 
 
 Q. Who was it brought them there?—A. A young man named Tark- 
 ingtou, 1 think, introduced these boys to General Mauson and myself, 
 and to perhaps one or two others. He introduced the subject, I think, 
 
332 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 himself, saying the boys wanted to make a statement in reference to 
 their situation ; that they were out of money and needed relief. 
 
 Q. How old was Isler ?—A. Some twenty-two or twenty-three years 
 old. 
 
 Q. What degree of intelligence did he show?—A. About the ordi¬ 
 nary degree for a colored man in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Who wrote that statement?—A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did you read it over to him ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you write what be told you?—A. Yes, sir, as near as I could 
 gather his ideas and embody them in language. 
 
 Q. You may read that statement to the committee. 
 
 The w itness read as lollows : 
 
 Indianapolis, Ind., January 10, 1880. 
 
 I, Silas Isler, of Lenoir County, North Carolina, make the following statement: I am 
 from the State of North Caroliua, Lenoir County. I left home about live weeks ago 
 with my father and mother, leaving my wife and child there. I lived with Mr. Alfred 
 Canady, near La Grange, say four miles. I was induced to come to lndiaua by the rep¬ 
 resentations made by Sam. Perry and Peter Williams, both Republicans, who said there 
 was plenty of work in Indiana. That men would hire us as soon as we arrived, right 
 from the train, and pay us from $1.50 to $3 a day. That 400 or 500 houses were ready 
 for us, all furnished for us, and we could get land at $1 to $1.50 per acre on seven 
 years’ time in any quantity to suit us, and that the women folks could get from $20 to 
 $25 per month. I paid my way here from money made in picking cotton, aud father 
 and mother sold three cows, and horse and buggy, aud corn and fodder, and all in the 
 house but their beds, to get money to come on. I have only made since I come on five 
 dollars, at 40 cents a day, and it is hard for father aud me to make enough to live on 
 in the plainest and cheapest way. We were better off in Caroliua, and want to go 
 hack. They told us Indiana was Democratic, and they wanted us to vote the Repub¬ 
 lican ticket, for the Democrats “were using the offices for fraud and corruption.” And 
 Mr. Perry said, “We must all be Republicans; we want no Democrat negroes in the 
 party going to Indiana; we want all the party to be strong hearted Republicans,” 
 and the people w r oukl take care of us. I was well treated in North Carolina, and so 
 was everybody who behaved themselves, both white aud black. 
 
 Ms 
 
 SILAS X ISLER. 
 
 mark. 
 
 Witnesses to signature: 
 
 J. C. Tarkington. 
 
 Hughes East. 
 
 Q. Who attest that paper?—A. Mr. Tarkington and myself, but it 
 was made in the presence, also, of General Mauson, auditor of State. 
 
 Q. See whether you recognize that paper (handing another paper to 
 witness).—A. Yes, sir; this is the statement made by Mr. Williams. 
 
 Q. What is his name?—A. Lewis Williams. 
 
 Q. Where was it made ?—A. The same afternoon, and in the same 
 building. He was an older man than Isler, and a man of some intelli¬ 
 gence. 
 
 The Chairman. Please read that statement to the committee. 
 
 The Witness read as follows; 
 
 Indianapolis, January 10, 1880. 
 
 Lewis Williams, from Lenoir County, North Carolina, makes the following state¬ 
 ment: 
 
 1, Lewis Williams, of my own free will, make the following statement: I am from 
 the State of North Carolina, Lenoir County. I left my home in North Carolina about 
 five weeks ago. I was induced to leave North Carolina by representations made by 
 Sam. Perry and Peter Williams, both Republicans, and one or two others, who were 
 also Republicans. These men said there was plenty of work in Indiana; that men 
 would be ready to hire the immigrants as soon as they arrived, right from the train, 
 and pay them from $2 to $3 per day for farming aud for such other work as the men 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 333 
 
 could do. That there were at least 500 houses waitiug for them all furnished and ready 
 to receive them, and that provisions would be furnished for six or seven months gra¬ 
 tuitously. That land would be furnished in such tracts as the immigrants might 
 want, and that from six to seven years to pay for it in would be given, and that these 
 lands could be had at from $1 to $1.50 per acre; and that women as cooks, chamber¬ 
 maids, and house servants, could get from $20 to $25 per month. All of those repre¬ 
 sentations I have found to be untrue. There is no demand for labor, no lands for sale 
 at the prices named, and no such wages as I was promised are paid. Iu four weeks I 
 have been able to earn $8. I paid my own way to Indiana, but about three-fifths of 
 the immigrants could not pay their way from Washington, and had to have it paid for 
 them by parties in Washington, and were destitute of comfortable clothing, and when 
 they arrived were in a suffering condition. The immigrants were told that they must 
 vote the Republican ticket when they arrived in Indiana, because the Democrats had 
 used their offices for fraud and corruption. We were told by Perry and Williams that 
 we must all be Republicans ; we want no Democrat negroes in the party, and they 
 want all the negroes to be valiant-hearted Republicans. I was induced to believe the 
 representations made by Peter Williams because he is my cousin. My observation 
 leads me to believe that the colored people who have come from North Carolina to In¬ 
 diana are far worse off than they were iu North Carolina. Since I have been in In¬ 
 diana I have met a good many Republicans, white and colored, and have been uniformly 
 told that the State of Indiana is Democratic, and that the colored immigrants would be 
 expected to vote the Republican ticket. These Republicans have told me that now, 
 being in Indiana, I was a free man and could vote as I please, but I was as free in 
 North Carolina as I am in Indiana. I am a married man and have a wife and two 
 children to support, who are with me. While in Washington I was led to believe from 
 conversation with white and colored people that the money raised to forward the des¬ 
 titute negroes to Indiana was furnished entirely by Republicans, and I know posi¬ 
 tively that in North Carolina no Democrat in any way helped to entice us from our 
 homes, but advised us to stay, for they were certain we should be deceived. I am 
 personally acquainted with Governor Vance, now United States Senator from North 
 Carolina, and if he were in Indianapolis to-day he would shake hands with me as quick 
 as he would with any man in the State, and I am willing to refer to him as to my 
 character. 
 
 * his 
 
 LEWIS X WILLIAMS. 
 
 mark. 
 
 Witness to signature: 
 
 Jesse C. Tarkington. 
 
 Q. You say he was a man of more than ordinary intelligence?—A. 
 Yes, sir; he impressed me as a right sprightly colored man. 
 
 Q. Did you read that over to him ?—A. No, sir ; I did nor. It is not 
 written in my hand. It was written in the same room at the time, and 
 the intelligence he evinced makes it certain he understood it. 
 
 Q. That seems to be a copy ?—A. I do not know as to that. The orig¬ 
 inal ought to be here, I think. 1 did not see him write it, but I had a talk 
 with this man myself. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you he bad made such a statement?—A. I do not rec¬ 
 ollect that he did. I told him what I had heard of it, and he said it 
 was a truthful statement. 
 
 Q. What did these men say about getting away from Indiana?—A. 
 That was the burden of their talk. They were very much discouraged, 
 and evidently in need of aid. Indianapolis is a charitable place, but 
 the great number of these people made it hard to furnish them with 
 anything. They 7 were praying to get home, and said if we would get 
 them to Washington they would walk home. 
 
 Q. Have you seen many of them since they came there?—A. Yes, 
 sir; not to communicate with many of them, but 1 have seen them pass¬ 
 ing on the street; passing our board of trade on their way from the 
 depot up to the quarters where they were taken care of. 
 
 Q. Do you know how those who are not employed are living now?— 
 A. Very few of them have any money, as I am informed by reading the 
 colored paper there. They have a standing committee of colored peo¬ 
 ple to look after these folks, and I understand they make an effort to 
 take care of them. 
 
334 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Mr. East, do you regard yourself well informed as to whether 
 there is a demand in Indiana for more laborers than we already have? 
 —A. I think I am reasonably informed on that point. 
 
 Q. State your conclusions in regard to it?—A. I am sorry to have to 
 state that Indiana has a great many worthy poor people now who can¬ 
 not get employment in her borders. 
 
 Q. They are no small number?—A. They are a great number. 
 
 Q. Isn’t that fact forced upon the attention of the people every day ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; of course. If a man is not so cold that none can approach 
 him he hears these appeals for employment every day, coming from 
 worthy men. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it true that worthy men and women are searching for em¬ 
 ployment daily to earn bread and clothing?—A. I think that has been 
 true every year for several years past. 
 
 Q. And been especially so since the crash in 1S73 ?—A. Probably for 
 a year or so it wasn’t so great, but it had to come, and there has been a 
 great deal of suffering since. There has been some little improvement 
 for the last year. 
 
 Q. But there is still enough suffering to give everybody serious con¬ 
 cern ?—A. Yes, sir; I have appeal after appeal to get men places and 
 cannot do it. 
 
 Q. From your intimate knowledge of the situation, is not this 
 immigration, however induced or caused, the greatest crime against 
 these poor colored people that you have ever witnessed ?—A. I think 
 it is cruel to the colored men—woefully so. I live in the northern 
 part of the city, on Illinois street, where these colored people are quar¬ 
 tered. I took a stroll with a Republican friend one day just to look at 
 them, and the scene was pitiable. 
 
 Q. How were they living ?—A. They were lying about the church floor, 
 which a fire made comfortable, and the colored people and some white 
 people were trying to help them. 
 
 Q. How many of them were there ?—A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Any number?—A. A considerable number. 
 
 Q. Men, women, and children living there all together?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Eating and sleeping there?—A. I did not see them eating, but I 
 think something to eat is brought there to them. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Where are these two witnesses, Isler and Lewis Williams?—A. I 
 think they are there yet. I had not seen them for a day or two before 
 I left, but I think they are there. 
 
 Q. Were these statements of theirs sworn to?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not ?—A. Well, sir, nothing was said about their swearing to 
 them. 
 
 Q. They were brought in there by this attache of the Democratic 
 Sentinel to get their testimony ?—A. No, sir; I do not know anything 
 of the kind, sir. 
 
 Q; Why did you take the statement?—A. Because I was glad to re¬ 
 duce it to writing in view of what was going on here. 
 
 Q. You did it for use here ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why didn’t you reduce it to the form of an affidavit ?—A. I would 
 ask the question whether an affidavit would be admissible ? I know that 
 in a court of record it would not be. 
 
 Q. I would like to have you explain more fully to the committee that 
 while preparing the paper you thought it would be more likely to be 
 received as evidence if not sworn than if it was ?—A. I do not say I 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 335 
 
 thought so. I took it simply because I wanted to remember and have 
 this committee remember what these men had said in case they were 
 called here as witnesses. 
 
 Q. Do you know why you were summoned instead of those men ?—A. 
 
 I do not think Senator Voorkees knew I had those papers when he 
 summoned me. 
 
 Q. Who were present when this statement was gotten ?—A. General 
 Manson, auditor of State, and Mr. Maynard. 
 
 Q. Is Maynard a Democrat ?—A. A Democrat; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who else was there ?—A. This young man Tarkington. 
 
 Q. You three Democrats were there when you first heard that these 
 men were to make statements ?—A. I did not hear it. 
 
 Q. Who first introduced them?—A. I think young Tarkington intro¬ 
 duced them. 
 
 Q. Why did they come to you?—A. They did not come to me. I was 
 there and met them. 
 
 Q. Could this colored man read ?—A. I do not know. He said he 
 could not write, and I read it all over to him. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether the other man could read or not?—A. 
 No, sir. And in answer to your question why they were not brought 
 here as witnesses I will state that it was not my province to bring any¬ 
 body. They were anxious to get here, and I would have brought them 
 if I could. 
 
 Q. These affidavits were taken at the same time?—A. Those are 
 statements, not affidavits, ies, sir; they were made the same after¬ 
 noon. 
 
 Q. You say you have heard a good many say that if they could only 
 get to Washington they would walk back home?—A. Yes, sir; those 
 two are not the only ones I spoke of. 
 
 Q. Who else?—A. Peter Drew is another. His statement is here, I 
 believe, though I did not see him make it. Another party made a state¬ 
 ment to which he was qualified in the Sentinel office, some days after. I 
 believe those four are the only oues I have heard express a wish to come 
 back. 
 
 Q. How many were in that building you visited?—A. That church- 
 building ? I did not count them. 
 
 Q. How long had they been there ?—A. I do not remember that. 
 
 Q. Were not they a very recent arrival ?—A. I do not think they had 
 been there but a few days. 
 
 Q. Was that the receiving room for them?—A. Yes, sir; I think it 
 w as regarded for a while as the place for them. 
 
 Q. That is where the colored residents were taking care of them ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; but I think the trustees refused them permission to go 
 into the church any more. 
 
 Q. That w 7 as the last arrival ?—A. The last arrival, I think, remaiued 
 in the depot. I think the Independent News stated they were still in the 
 Union Depot when I left, and their leaders were loud in their indigna¬ 
 tion. 
 
 Q, You spoke of the condition of these people as “ pitiable ; v do not 
 both Democrats and Republicans contribute alike to their relief ?—A. I 
 do not know much as to the condition of this particular charity. 
 
 Q. I speak now of this particular charity.—A. I think they do; but 
 there is some prejudice against these people. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is such as to keep a humane person from helping 
 people in their pitiable condition ?—A. No, sir. 
 
336 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. ETave you heard anybody speak of it ?—A. I heard General Man- 
 son say he had exhausted all his pocket change on them. 
 
 Q. How much change was that ?—A. Some five or six dollars, I think. 
 I heard Holloway say he had sent them a barrel of pork ; also five dol¬ 
 lars for their support. 
 
 Q. And General Manson gave them money?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is a Democratic official ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Holloway, a Republican official?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you infer because Republicans gave them help and support, 
 the exodus is therefore a political movement?—A. No, sir; I have not 
 said any such thing. 
 
 Q. Do you infer because Republicans gave to them as charity, the 
 movement is still a political one ?—A. I think the Republicans and Dem¬ 
 ocrats alike, in Indiana, will give to people whom they know to be sui- 
 fering. 
 
 Q. But not for political purposes ?—A. The Democrats and Republi¬ 
 cans out there give pretty liberally for political purposes in Indiana 
 also. 
 
 Q. Are the Republicans more liberal generally in such matters than 
 the Democrats?—A. I have no idea that the Republicans are more lib¬ 
 eral just now to these people than the Democrats, though the Republi¬ 
 cans rather encourage it, and ask the people to come there. 
 
 Q. Are not the Republicans more friendly, as a rule, to the colored 
 people than Democrats?—A. Yes, sir; I think they may be. 
 
 Q. They manifest the same feeling now toward them as before the ex¬ 
 odus?—A. No, sir; I do not think their sympathy goes so far as to be 
 wholly removed from the hope of political advantage from the exodus. 
 
 Q. Tell us why you think so ?—A. I see the county of Marion, the 
 county in which Indianapolis is located, the colored men have the bal¬ 
 ance of power, but the Republicans use them, and hardly ever give them 
 any of the offices. They ask for office but never get it. The Republi¬ 
 cans are very kind in their expressions, treat them nicely at election 
 times, appoint some on the police, perhaps, but when it comes to the 
 offices they do not give them any. 
 
 Q. Do the Democrats give them a chance at the offices ?—A. We 
 nominated one named Christie for an office, but he was beaten by the 
 Republicans and their hostility to him. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any movement by Democrats from Indiana to 
 North Carolina, in consequence of this exodus ?—A. No, sir; I think 
 there is none. 
 
 Q. Have you any information in regard to the importation of white 
 people and voters across the line from Kentucky into Indiana?—A. I 
 have this information: I read in this Independent News, a colored 
 paper, where the editor took to task the editor of another paper for 
 stating that this exodus movement ought to be counteracted by the im¬ 
 portation of whites across the line; that the Democrats have the advan¬ 
 tage now, and it would be a good thing to keep it. 
 
 Q. It was rebuking the Democrats lor that proposition ?—A. No, sir; 
 it was giving us a warning. 
 
 Q. Do you know that this hue and cry was raised against these poor 
 negroes in order to divert attention from and cover the importation of 
 white Democratic voters?—A. No, sir; I do not think there is a word 
 of truth in the statement. 
 
 Q. It has been reported as true to me?—A. Some men might have 
 said that, but I do not kuow of any particle of truth in it. 
 
NEGKO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 337 
 
 Q. You said, I believe, that there is some improvement in affairs in 
 Indiana the past year?—A. Yes, sir; some. 
 
 Q. Is it very great?—-A. Y r es, sir; that might not be too strong to 
 say that it is great, because the depression before that was very great. 
 
 
 TESTIMONY OF GEN. M. D. MANSON. 
 
 Gen. M. D. Manson was sworn and examined as follows : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. General Manson, where do you reside?—Answer. Indian¬ 
 apolis. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in Indiana?—A. About thirty-eight 
 years, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you reside before going to Indianapolis ?—A. At Craw- 
 fordsville. 
 
 Q. What circumstance made you change your residence?—A. I was 
 elected auditor of State, and I removed to the capital. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there?—A. Since last April. 
 
 Q. Y r ou are auditor of State at this time?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you serve in the lower house of Congress ?—A. I 
 served during the Forty-second Congress. 
 
 Q. I believe you likewise served during the war somewhere else?—A. 
 I went into the military service the next day after Fort Sumpter was 
 fired upon, and I resigned, on account of a wound received in service, 
 December, 1804. 
 
 Q. Do you regard your acquaintance in Indiana as largeand thorough 
 as that of most men ?—A. I have a general acquaintance over the 
 State. 
 
 Q. Has your attention been arrested by this immigration of colored 
 people into our State from North Carolina during the past few months? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What first attracted your attention and caused you to give it any 
 notice?—A. I saw notices in the newspapers of a contemplated migra¬ 
 tion of negroes from the South, but the first I knew of it actually was 
 when this man Heath, of whom Mr. Baker spoke in his testimony, was 
 in our office. That was about the 20th of October. I do not think there 
 was any general movement of them into the State until November, and 
 they have been coming regular ever since. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed them on their arrival ?—A. Yes, sir. For the 
 first few weeks the immigrants went up Illinois and Meridian streets ; 
 Illinois street goes up from the west end of the depot. Since that they 
 have changed their tactics and go up Tennessee street. The State offices 
 are on that street—corner of Washington and Tennessee streets. Quite 
 a number of these folks were passing by about three weeks ago, and 
 some of the boys on the street called at them and attracted some atten¬ 
 tion. I stepped to the door and asked what was the matter. One of 
 the immigrants shook his finger over and said : “ God damn you, we 
 will show you after the next election whether you will holler at ns.” 
 
 Q. He seemed to know there was to be an election?—A. Yes, sir; 
 and he was going to show those fellows at the State-house not to “hol¬ 
 ler” at them. 
 
 Q, Who was conducting them ?—A. I do not know. They had guns 
 with them ; there was one gun about every fifteen feet in the squad. 
 
 22 
 
 EX 
 
338 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Dow many of them were men?—A. Less than half of them were 
 men. 
 
 Q. They were men, women, and children ?—A. Men, women, and 
 children. 
 
 Q. Uow many of them were there ?—A. A pretty large body of them. 
 
 Q. Have any of these people been about your office and the State- 
 house ?—A. There have been a great many of them about there. 
 
 Q. vVliat appears to be their reason for coming there about the State 
 officers ?—A. They seemed to think the State officers would send them 
 back home from Indiana to get rid of their votes. 
 
 Q. The State offices are tilled by Democrats, are they not ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And these people came there to get sent back home?—A. Some 
 of them have an idea that there is a fund there to be used to help them. 
 
 Q. What did you tell them on that subject ?—A. I said we had no 
 fund, and that the Democratic party, nor I, had anything to do with 
 bringing them into the State, and we would do nothing to send them 
 out of it. 
 
 Q. Were you present when Islerand Williams made their statements? 
 —A. A"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they dictate them?—A. Y'es, sir. 
 
 Q. What did they say about swearing to them ?—A. They offered to 
 swear to them but there was no officer in the building who could ad¬ 
 minister an oath. I do not think I could, because while I had the right 
 to do so in certain matters of State, I do not think I could in other 
 things. They would have been sworn, but there was no notary or the 
 clerk of the supreme court there. 
 
 Q. Now, general, on this subject of charity—what is your experience 
 on that subject ?—A. Well, I think nearly every one who came to the 
 office and said he was in a destitute condition got something. I know 
 Governor Williams has been exceedingly kind to them. 
 
 Q. Hardly a day passes, does it, that they do not get something out 
 of him ?—A. I know his office is next to 
 without getting it. 
 
 Q. They are in a miserable, destitute condition, are they not?—A. 
 Y r es, sir; the most of them, but some of them are in good condition. 
 This man Williams, who made the statement, had money enough to pay 
 his way to Indianapolis and had five dollars at the time. He had un¬ 
 derstood that Martindale made a statement to a newspaper reporter 
 that the Republicans would furnish them with money or work. He 
 went to see him, and when Martindale came into the office he asked him 
 for money or work. Martindale asked him what he followed ; he said 
 “farming,” and Martindale asked why he did not go to the country and 
 get work. He replied that he had been all around Indianapolis for a 
 distance often miles and could get neither. 
 
 Q. Did the judge (Martindale) promise him any money?—A. No, sir; 
 he did not give him any, or promise him any. The man said it would 
 take seventy-five dollars to get himself and family back. 
 
 Q. What is your general opinion of the prospects at this time of ne¬ 
 gro laborers from the South, or laborers from anywhere else, coming to 
 our State to better their condition ?—A. I do not believe that the colored 
 people can benefit themselves by coming to Indiana. While it is a 
 liberal State, the people hav e never looked very liberally on the colored 
 people. When the present constitution was adopted, there was a clause 
 (No. 13) to prohibit colored immigration. Although the general con 
 
 mine, and that none ask him 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 339 
 
 stitution was only adopted by 20,000 votes, that clause was adopted by 
 
 80,000 ! 
 
 Q. Is it not true that while the school law is general on its face, it is 
 almost a dead letter, because the people do not like mixed schools ?—A. 
 It was so at first, but I think, to some extent, that is dying out. I know 
 of colored children going into schools, where there are not colored 
 schools in proper distance. In Indianapolis we have a very fine colored 
 school. 
 
 Q. Now, tell us, in your opinion (and nobody is better able to tell), 
 whether there is a demand for labor, aside from the race of the laborers, 
 at this time in Indiana?—A. There is not a demand for foreign labor at 
 this time. There could be much more used than is there if it only 
 brought capital with it. It takes capital to create such a demand. We 
 have vast stone quarries and mines of coal to open, but it takes capital 
 to manage that. 
 
 Q. Is there any idle labor in Indiana?—A. There is idle labor, and 
 has been much of it for the last two years. I know a competent engineer, 
 by the name of Scanlan, who has been many years employed m and 
 about Indianapolis, and who has been exceedingly anxious to get a 
 place in the new asylum building. He said he was destitute, and finally 
 offered to work for board for himself and wife. He has been so pressed 
 that I know Adjutant General Buss went around and raised money to 
 pay his rent. I do not know whether he is in Indianapolis yet, or not. 
 
 Q. Is not your attention constantly called to people who are wanting 
 work ?—A. There is a great desire for something to do in Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. It has been sought to represent here that the people of Indiana are- 
 hostile to immigration. Do you know of any hostility there to the 
 coming of any except paupers who become objects of charity ? Is there 
 any hostility to any man coming there who can support himself?—A. 
 None, whatever. The people of Indiana gladly welcome all immigrants 
 from all countries who can support themselves; but they are not satis¬ 
 fied to have paupers of any country, north or south, Europe or Asia, 
 brought into the State and dumped upon them. 
 
 Q. We have a law against that, have we not ?—A. I am not a lawyer, 
 and I do not know as to that. 
 
 By Senator Vance: 
 
 Q. The representations made here by witnesses from North Carolina, 
 black and white, are to the effect that a common field-hand there aver¬ 
 ages, for the best hands, ten dollars per month, with rations, a house to 
 live in, with firewood free, and the ordinary garden patches; and that 
 women and children get front five dollars up to seven, eight, and nine 
 dollars per month ; now, I ask you if common farm labor is any better 
 paid in Indiana?—A. No, sir; it is not, taking the year around. The 
 ordinary price of labor, with board, is fifteen or sixteen dollars a month 
 during the cropping season, running from the time they commence 
 plowing for corn on until the oats are harvested; Almost anywhere 
 that the farmers are gathering corn, they do it by paying by the bushel. 
 I have had some gathered myself that way. 
 
 Q. flow many hands do the tarmers employ according to the acres of 
 land they cultivate?—A. There are few farmers who have many hands 
 all the year around. The best of our farmers employ three or four all 
 the time during the cropping season. Nearly all the time else they 
 have no more than one or two. 
 
 Q. Suppose a man is employed at fifteen and sixteen dollars a month, 
 and all that; has he a house and so on, as I described awhile ago ?—A. 
 
340 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 No. sir. The most of the laborers are young men, or they take some¬ 
 thing in the shape of land to work. 
 
 Q. These wages, then, include only board ?—A. Yes, sir; and wash¬ 
 ing. 
 
 Bv Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You think it is a lack of capital rather than a surplus of labor 
 that makes the demand for laborers light in Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. We 
 could employ more labor if we had more capital. 
 
 Q. Indiana is not a poor State, is it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there not a good deal of accumulated capital in the State ?—A. 
 I cannot say that there is. There are a number of people pretty well 
 off in most of the counties; but the people generally are not rich. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say your people have no hostility to those who can support 
 themselves ?—A. Y r es, sir; I say so. 
 
 Q. And you are willing to have people come there who have muscle? 
 —A. Yes, sir; the people are willing and anxious to have people come 
 in there who can make a living, either by labor or the use of capital. 
 
 Q. Do not the majority of the people who make an honest living do so 
 by muscle ?—A. YYs, sir, I suppose so, if you throw out these fellows 
 who hang around the capitol. 
 
 Q. Do you mean the capitol of Indiana?—A. No, sir; I mean here— 
 the carpet-baggers. 
 
 Q. Are you opposed to people coming to Indiana who bring their 
 honest muscle and willing hearts, seeking to make a decent living?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are not these people from North Carolina of that class?—A. I do 
 not know ; it remains to be seen whether they are or are not. 
 
 Q. Are not these people able to make their way in the world if they 
 are given a fair chance?—A. I do not know, sir, as there is much pros¬ 
 pect of it when we have to run them into a poor-house as soon as they 
 come there. 
 
 Q. Do not they come there with muscle ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And did not you say that a man who had no money had better 
 stay away?—A. I said if he had to go into a poor-house as soon as he 
 got there he had better and ought to stay away. 
 
 Q. Your conclusion is, then, that the immigrant ought to have money 
 before he comes there?—A. I think they ought to have money enough 
 to support themselves until they can get work. 
 
 Q. Your judgment is if they do not have money enough to support 
 themselves they had better stay away ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would you reply to the Irishmen*who are flying from famine 
 and oppression, if they should come to Indiana?—A. The Irishman can 
 generally take care of himself. 
 
 Q. He generally votes the Democratic ticket, does he not?—A. Some¬ 
 times he does. 
 
 Q. You think if two or three hundred Irishmen were to come in there 
 the Democrats would not “ kick,” or would they?—A. I do not think 
 they would put on mourning. They have been very valuable citizens to 
 Indiana, in the making of canals and building railroads. 
 
 Q. Do you think your people would object to any more of them com¬ 
 ing in there?—A. I do not think they would try to bring them, and I 
 do not think they would ooject if they did come, my dear Senator. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of a number of people coming into Indiana 
 from Kentucky, about election time?—A. Yes, sir—in Republican news¬ 
 papers. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 341 
 
 Q. Did you ever bear of any Democrats protesting against it ?—A. 
 No, sir ; I do not suppose they thought it was necessary to notice that 
 charge. Our idea is that that charge is made as a counter-irritant. 
 
 Q. I am told that your charge as to the negroes is made as a counter- 
 irritant to the one about the people from Kentucky ?—A. I never heard 
 of any such charge against the Democratic party, but I have heard that 
 the Republicans have brought negroes over from Kentucky time and 
 again. 
 
 Q. You stated that the colored men Isler and Williams dictated every 
 word in those statements'?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think they were pretty intelligent men?—A. Yes, sir; 
 but I have no doubt Mr. Maynard and Mr. East, who are scholars, 
 changed the grammar somewhat. 
 
 Q. You say they dictated every word ?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, we will let that drop there?—A. Yes, sir; we will let it 
 drop. 
 
 Mr. AYindom. It was somewhat remarkable was the reason I spoke so 
 closely of it. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir; these are remarkable times. 
 
 Q. Well, this man Heath—when did you meet him ?—A. How did you 
 get the information that I met him ? 
 
 Mr. Windom. I was told so. 
 
 The Witness. I said that I did not see him at all. 
 
 Q. Did anybody telegraph to Lewmau that this man was coming to 
 Greencastle?—A. There was no such telegram sent to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Was not a messenger sent there 0 ?—A. There was. 
 
 Q. Who sent him °?—A. I sent him. 
 
 Q. How came you to send him ?—A. I understood that Heath was in 
 close consultation with Holloway and Denny and was going there to 
 Greeneastle to see the postmaster and make arrangements to import the 
 darkeys; so I sent Mr. Baker to go and inform Lawman and Mattison 
 of it. 
 
 Q. Did you hear he had made an affidavit?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear what it was?—A. I had heard that he said the ob¬ 
 ject was to get the negroes out of North Carolina in time not to be enu¬ 
 merated in the census, and info Indiana in time to be counted there. 
 
 Q. Who told you that?—A. My clerk. 
 
 Q. The one who made the writing?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What directions did you give to this clerk as the body-guard of 
 Heath ?—A. He was not a body-guard. 
 
 Q. Well, forerunner?—A. Yes, sir; forerunner. I wanted him to go 
 before and give the glad tidings to the Democracy of Putnam County. 
 
 Q. W r hat did you tell him ?—A. I am sorry, my dear Senator, but I 
 canuot tell you now. 
 
 Q. Well, the substance of it?—A. I think I said to go and tell them 
 that this man was coming, and that there was a scheme to import ne¬ 
 groes into their midst. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him they were coming?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And that he (Heath) was the advance agent?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not tell Lewman how to palm himself off* on this fel¬ 
 low as a Republican ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not tell them down there how to receive him?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how they did receive him?—A. Only as I have 
 heard of it. 
 
312 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 Q. This man whom you sent was the same one who had taken the 
 statement from Heath?—A. Yes, sir ; the same man. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you when he returned that he had communicated with 
 Lew man ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that Lewman told the man he (L.) was postmas¬ 
 ter?—A. He said they met him at the depot; but I do not think he 
 said that Lewman told him he was postmaster. 
 
 Q. Did lie tell you of the conference between Lewman and Heath ?— 
 A. 1 think he left on the early train next morning. 
 
 Q. What did he report to you ?—A. He reported that the darkey had 
 got there and had been received by Lewman ; but I cannot remember 
 all that he said. 
 
 Q. What do you think, anyhow, of that conspiracy to cheat this poor 
 darkey?—A. Well, 1 did not consider it of enough importance to think 
 about. 
 
 Q. You thought it important enough to send a man ahead of him ?— 
 A. I thought it important enough to send a clerk to Greeucastle, and 
 he came back and said the fellow had gotten there. 
 
 Q. Cannot you remember anything more that he said?—A. Well, he 
 stated that Lewman met the man, andLewinan told me afterwards that 
 he did meet him and had gotten the papers, or whatever papers he had 
 with him, from him. 
 
 Q. Did your clerk see the papers ?—A. No, sir ; but I have seen them 
 since. 
 
 Q. What did Lewman tell you he told the man ?—A. I do not remem¬ 
 ber. 
 
 Q. Did not he think it was a pretty good joke that he had deceived 
 the negro and made him think he (Lewman) was a Kepublican ?—A. He 
 never told me that. 
 
 Q. He swore to it here ?—A. He told me he took him to a hotel. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any one playing a trick on one of these men in 
 your office and making believe he was a Kepublican ?—A. No, sir ; I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. You heard your clerk and other witnesses make the statement yes¬ 
 terday?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect that in their testimony they said they played Ke¬ 
 publican on a darkey and got this statement out of him ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You heard your clerk say he kept out of his (Heath’s) sight at 
 Greeucastle, because he had played such a joke on him at Indianapolis ? 
 —A. Y r es, sir. There are several offices in the auditor’s department, 
 and I am in the back part of the building and do not see the clerks 
 always. 
 
 Q. I want to ask generally about how many there were in that squad 
 which passed up by the State-house?—A. It would be nothing but a 
 guess, and I would not pretend to say it would be correct. 
 
 Q. Give us an idea?—A. Well, I should judge, from the space they 
 occupied, there must have been seventy-five. 
 
 Q. And you think less than half of them were voters?—A. I think 
 there were not one-half who were. 
 
 Q. Do you think one-fourth were?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the nature of the calls made to them from the State- 
 house?—A. I do not know. I was at ni 3 r desk, but there was a good 
 deal of laughing from some of the young men on the sidewalk. They 
 had been talking to them, I think. 
 
 Q. Were they making sport ot them ?—A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think it was emigrant himself who made that remark you 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 343 
 
 quoted ?—A. It was a man in the crowd, near the middle of the proces¬ 
 sion. 
 
 Q. It was a little political jeering between the two parties ?—A. I did 
 not suppose so until this man made this remark, and then I supposed 
 lie thought he was coming to Indiana to vote. 
 
 Q. Those were Democratic clerks who were about ?—A. There were 
 Democratic clerks in the door, but I do not know whether these people 
 on the sidewalks were Democrats or not. 
 
 Q. May it not have been Democratic negroes who answered back ?— 
 A. There are not many of that kind, and Ido not think they would an¬ 
 swer back that way at the State-house. 
 
 By Senator VANCE: 
 
 Q. Will you give your reasons for believing that the negroes will be 
 better off in the South than in the North?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you please ?—A. I believe that in the Southern States, where 
 the negroes were raised in tiie same community with the whites, the 
 whites are kinder to them than they are in the Northern States where 
 they have not mixed so intimately together as in the Southern States. 
 It seems to me they can do better in their old homes than in strange 
 States like Ohio and Indiana. When I was in New Orleans in 1870— 
 in November—there were some thirty or forty negroes there, of the 
 most intelligent class, who called upon the gentlemen from the North¬ 
 ern States. In talking with them I asked them why it was so many 
 negroes voted the Democratic ticket. One of them said that they were 
 naturally Republicans, and they looked to it as the party that freed 
 and enfranchised them; that they had no quarrel with the Republican 
 party of the country, but that carpet bag rule in Louisiana was intoler¬ 
 able; that it had confiscated twenty millions of dollars of their prop¬ 
 erty. Major Bascom who was there (an Ohio man) said he was at the 
 election in East Feliciana Parish, and he never saw a quieter one. The 
 electioneering was done mostly by negroes. There was a Tilden and 
 Hendricks club of twelve or thirteen hundred members, and Governor 
 Wickliffe headed the ticket, to whom the people, black and white, all 
 feel kind. I think the people of the South like them; they elect them 
 to office, while such a thing as electing a colored man to office is unknown 
 in the North, except in one case—the city of Cincinnati. There a very 
 respectable colored gentleman, named Williams, waselected. There was 
 an exciting election and a long ticket, but there were twenty six hundred 
 Republicans who stopped and took time to read the ticket and scratch 
 his name. 
 
 Q. Did he fall that far behind the vote, or the vote of his party?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Bv Senator Window: 
 
 Q. When was that election in East Felicianato which you referred?— 
 A. In 1876. 
 
 Q. I suppose you have never heard of any bulldozing or anything of 
 that kind in Louisiana?—A. Iam surprised that you should ask me 
 that. 
 
 Q. You have heard of it then ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 q>. You do not believe much of it ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any troubles down there now ?—A. Not much 
 since they got rid of the carpet-bag rule. 
 
 Q. A good many of them have left there in the last few years ?—A. I 
 do not know. 
 
 Q. Y r ou think the great curse of the country is carpet-bag rule?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; I emphatically think so. 
 
344 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You do not believe any of those stories of bulldozing?—A. I do 
 not believe much of it. 
 
 Q. You do not believe in “ tissue ballots” either?—A. I have one, I 
 think, from South Carolina that is called a “ pudding ticket”—a Repub¬ 
 lican ticket. 
 
 Q. How are they fixed ?—A. White men fix them and the negroes vote 
 them. 
 
 Q. Do you justify the use of tissue ballots?—A. I do not know any¬ 
 thing about the use of them. White men in the South, I suppose, are 
 the same as in Minnesota. You like to carry your elections and so do 
 they. 
 
 Q. We do not like to carry our elections by stuffing ballot-boxes.—A. 
 We do not know about that. 1 have not been up there to see. Indiana 
 does not do it, and still we like to carry the elections, and when we 
 elect men we like to have them put in, and not counted out. 
 
 Q. You do not count out in Indiana?—A. No, sir; we do not count 
 out anybody. We do not believe in the processes of Kellogg and the 
 returning-board in Louisiana. 
 
 Q. And never stuff ballot boxes?—A. The Democrats often protest 
 against the Republicans stuffing the ballot-boxes, but I never heard of 
 the Democrats stuffing any. 
 
 Q. And you do not approve of bulldozing, I presume ? 
 
 The Witness. What is bulldozing? 
 
 Mr. Windom. It is going out with shot-guns, red shirts, rifles, and 
 clubs, and riding around at night, killing and murdering people on ac¬ 
 count of their politics. 
 
 The Witness. Do you find that definition in Webster’s Dictionary? 
 
 Mr. Windom. I am giving you my definition. 
 
 The Witness. I will say this, that I know of nothing of the kind, ex¬ 
 cept as 1 have heard it produced here in Congress. 
 
 Q. (By Mr. Windom.) And what do you think of it, as thus t>roduced ? 
 —A. I think they produced what is not true. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. Do you understand that twenty-six hundred Republicans scratched 
 the name of Williams in Cincinnati?—A. Yes, sir; that is my informa¬ 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Do you think they were Republicans?—A. I do not kuow of any 
 Democrats voting that ticket. 
 
 Q. How do you know that this falling off of his vote was due to his 
 color?—A. He was represented to be the most respectable man on his 
 ticket, and the falling oft was therefore on account of his color, I sup¬ 
 
 pose. 
 
 Q. What is your authority for making that statement—that “he was 
 the most respectable man on his ticket”?—A. I make it from seeing it 
 in the newspapers at the time and since. I do not know that any news¬ 
 paper said it in so many words, but from what they said of him and the 
 others with him, I judged so for myself. 
 
 Q. Why did you judge so ?—A. lean give you no special reasons, 
 except that I judged from my reading about him. 
 
 Q. Where did you read anything about him ?—A. The Cincinnati 
 Enquirer said before the election that he was going to be scratched, 
 and all the papers said nevertheless he was a man of high character. 
 
 Q. The Enquirer is a Democratic paper ?—A. Yes, sir ; but there 
 were notices of the case in all the other papers. I read the Enquirer 
 more than the others. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 345 
 
 Q. You saw some notices of the fact in other papers, though ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the information you have on the subject you got from news¬ 
 papers?—A. Yes, sir; and from politicians. 
 
 Q. Do not you know that he was scratched on account of his charac¬ 
 ter, and that it was charged upon him that he got money here in Wash¬ 
 ington by swindling, and the colored aien scratched him on that ac¬ 
 count?—A. No, sir; I never heard of that. 
 
 Mr. Blair. Well, that is the charge that was made against him. 
 
 The Chairman. I am well acquainted with that canvas, and I say I 
 never heard of it any time or any where till now. 
 
 The witness was thereupon discharged. 
 
 STATEMENT BY O. S. B. WALL. 
 
 O. S. B. Wall arose and said : Mr. Chairman, I desire to make a 
 statement upon that last point about Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams 
 came here to this city and stopped here awhile to establish a newspa¬ 
 per. He wanted to get subscriptions, and Mr. Douglass, Mr. Langston, 
 and myself gave subscriptions. He went off and took the subscriptions 
 in his pocket. It was talked of freely, and I talked of it in Cincinnati 
 when I was there in the convention to nominate Hayes, and I have heard 
 it was talked about to him (Williams). 
 
 Q. (By the Chairman.) You think that accounts for his running be¬ 
 hind his ticket?—A. I don’t know, sir; I think it might have had an 
 effect of that kind. 
 
 Adjourned to Friday, February 13, 18S0, at 10.30 a. m. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HUGHES EAST. 
 
 ' Washington, D. C., February 13, 1SS0. 
 
 Committee met pursuant to adjournment and proceeded to take testi¬ 
 mony as follows : 
 
 Present, Senator Voorhees, chairman ; also Senators Vance, Pendle¬ 
 ton, Windom, and Blair. 
 
 Hughes East was recalled by the chairman. 
 
 By the Chairmans 
 
 Question. Mr. East, have you any extracts from Bepublican news¬ 
 papers on that subject?—Answer. Do you mean as to the emigration ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. I have a few extracts from some of the newspapers. 
 
 Q. From what papers ?—A. From the Indianapolis Leader, the colored 
 organ there, and some extracts from the Vincennes Commercial. Here 
 is one from the Commercial : 
 
 The colored people from the South who want work can get it in Indiana. Let them 
 come with a boom. 
 
 Another one : 
 
 We believe that the negroes have a right, under the circumstances, to come to Indi¬ 
 ana; and we hope they will come in such numbers as to redeem the State from Demo¬ 
 cratic rule. 
 
 Q. What sort of paper is that ?—A. That is a white paper. 
 
346 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What sort of paper is the Leader ?—A. The Leader is a Republi¬ 
 can paper. 
 
 Q. What do you know of the manner in which a certain sum of money 
 was being raised to bring a number of emigrants to Indiana who had 
 been stopped here for want of means ?—A. 1 have a statement here that 
 about one hundred and fifty of these people were here in this city, un¬ 
 able to proceed. It is an extract from a letter of Mr. O. S. B. Wall, 
 president of the Emigrant Aid Society. He says : 
 
 We have about exhausted the resources of the charitable. These people have no 
 sympathy with the exodus, as they are rebel sympathizers. We have hopes that the 
 State of Indiana will help us. 
 
 Yours, O. S. B. WALL. 
 
 That was published in the Leader, the colored organ at Indianapolis. 
 Soon after that a dispatch was sent to have credited to the Baltimore & 
 Ohio Railroad $625, and these negroes .would come on. I am informed 
 that the money was raised. The matter of raising the money was placed 
 in the hands of a committee; and Mr. Wood, who is here, and who was 
 a member of that committee, told me yesterday that the money was 
 raised and the men came on. 
 
 Q. Does Mr. Wood know how the money was raised?—A. Yes, sir; 
 he said Mr. Bagby had more to do with the matter than he had. 
 
 Q. That is all you know of the money branch of the case?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I have heard a few other things, but that is about all. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You do not know anything about the raising of any money your¬ 
 self ?—A. No, sir; I did not help raise it, but I understood that it was 
 raised. 
 
 Q. Where?—A. In Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. How much?—A. Enough to bring the men. 
 
 Q. What men ?—A. This party that were here ? 
 
 Q. You have simply heard that it was raised ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anybody in Indiana who was supposed to have 
 assisted in raising it?—A. That is all I know about it. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF L. C. MORRIS. 
 
 L. C. Morris was sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Morris, where doyou reside ?—Answer. In Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. What do you do there?—A. I am a railroad passenger agent. 
 
 Q. Of what firm are you a member?—A. I am connected with Mor¬ 
 ris & Mills. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in Indianapolis?—A. I have lived in 
 Indianapolis five years; I was raised near there. 
 
 Q. How do you describe your business?—A. As a railroad passenger 
 agent, to solicit emigration business. 
 
 Q. Are you employed by the railroads ?—YEs, sir ; all of them. 
 
 Q. Then you are in the railroad business?—A. No, sir, I am not; 
 nor am I in that part of the firm of Morris & Mills. 
 
 Q. Mr. Morris, state to us what you know of money being raised to 
 send negroes to Greencastle by Mr. Reynolds.—A. I learned that there 
 was a party coming through, and I was interested in having them come 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 347 
 
 over the Vandalia. road. I found that Reynolds had something to do 
 with it, and I said to him that I wanted them to go that way. I want¬ 
 ed him to give me the numbers of the tickets; he said he would give 
 them to me and he did so. 
 
 Q. How many tickets did he give you the numbers of ?—A. Of twen- 
 
 tv seven tickets. 
 
 • 
 
 Q. He gave you the numbers and he gave you the tickets ?—A. No, 
 sir; l asked him to give me the tickets and their numbers. It was neces¬ 
 sary to show up the business over the lines of road; and that was the 
 only way in which we could do it. 
 
 Q. Do you think you were instrumental in getting them to go over 
 that road ?—A. I hoped to be so. 
 
 Q. I mean did you get them to go, or did Reynolds get them ?—A. 
 Well, sir, I was talking to Perry and others to go over that road, and 
 Reynolds did not seem to care which way they went. I tried tointlu- 
 ence them to go over that road and they went. 
 
 Q. Mr. Morris, what number of tickets did he furnish you'?—A. He 
 did not furnish me the tickets; he furnished me the numbers of twenty- 
 seven full tickets. 
 
 Q. Where did he get those tickets ?—A. He purchased them there at 
 the Union depot. 
 
 Q. He bought them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With his own money?—A. I do not know, sir, where the money 
 came from. I saw him at the window, and afterward he came and gave 
 me the numbers. 
 
 Q. He is the railroad transfer mail agent there, is he not ?—A. YYs, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Employed under the government?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you don’t know whether he was buying those tickets with 
 his own money or somebody else’s?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He did not tell you?—A. Nothing was said about the money part 
 of it. 
 
 Q. And you did not feel sufficient curiosity to inquire ?—A. No, sir 
 we had only a few moments’ conversation. 
 
 Q. All you wanted, I suppose, was for the Vandalia Road to carry 
 the passengers?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. What conversation did you have with anybody with regard to 
 where the money was raised to enable Perry and Williams to come back 
 to Washington City ?—A. I think the first I knew of it was when the 
 money was produced to get the tickets. It was handed to me, and 1 
 procured their tickets, checked their baggage, and they started East. 
 
 Q. Who handed it to you ?—A. My brother, V. K. Morris. 
 
 Q. What was said at the time?—A. Nothing was said at the time; 
 but a few days afterward, in our uptown office, I got an idea that the 
 money was handed to him or to Mr. Mills, either by Perry himself or 
 by Colonel Jordan. 
 
 Q. Colonel Jordan is register in bankruptcy, is he not?—A. AYs, sir. 
 
 Q. And Perry and Williams were returning here on this business— 
 to bring more emigrants? — A. That is the understanding, as I learned. 
 They had not their railroad arrangements fully made at that time. 
 
 Q. They were railroad agents, and were returning here for that pur¬ 
 pose?—A. I suppose that is what they were coming for. 
 
 Q. You understood that it became necessary for them to return to 
 Washington ?—A. Their object was to return to Washington, and to 
 North Carolina, but to stop here and take the Pennsylvania Railroad. 
 I sent for the Baltimore and Ohio agent, who makes his office with me, 
 
248 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 and he got there in time to telegraph here to send them on to Baltimore, 
 which was done. 
 
 Q. You understood that they were to return here on emigrant busi¬ 
 ness?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that money was furnished to help them on in it?—A. I do 
 not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Money was furnished them to come to Washington ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether you ever had any communication with or from any 
 member of the State Central Republican Committee, or anybody em¬ 
 ployed by them, on the subject of this emigration business.—A. I do 
 not know certainly; I believe there was a gentleman who clerks there, 
 who came down and inquired of me how much it would cost to send 
 these people to Greencastle and Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. What was his name?—A. J. W. Horton. 
 
 Q. You say he clerks for the State Ceutral Republican Committee?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is he a full clerk there?—A. I think he is a deputy clerk. 
 
 Q. Well, he is employed there anyway?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. And he made inquiry to know what it would cost to send these 
 people to Greencastle and Terre Haute?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that before or after this lot was sent?—A. It was before. 
 
 Q. Did .you tell him ?—A. Yes, sir ; I gave him the rate. 
 
 Q. Did he make a memorandum of it ?—A. No, sir : I think not. 
 
 Q. Did the conversation between you stop there ?—A. No, sir; we 
 talked on in a general way as to the number that were coming, and all 
 that. 
 
 Q. What did he say?—A. He asked how many I thought had gone 
 out, and how many would come. That was about the substance of it. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. flow many colored people have come to Indiana in this exodus 
 movement?—A. I am not aware, but I should judge some seven or 
 eight hundred. 
 
 Q. What has become of them ?—A. They are distributed around 
 among the counties near to our county. 
 
 Q. Among what kind of people ?—A. Among Republicans. 
 
 Q. I ihean, are they among farmers or manufacturers?—A. Farmers 
 principally, if not wholly. 
 
 Q. Have they pretty generally found employment?—A. Mr. Perry 
 stopped there at my office pretty generally, and he told me they had 
 done so, and so did others. 
 
 Q. To what extent have they been employed ?—A. I do not know as 
 to them all; I know but few of them personally ; there are only a few 
 who have employment that I know personally. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that they have pretty generally found employ¬ 
 ment, and will get along, or are they in a church out there starving, as 
 has been stated here?—A. My understanding is that they went away 
 into the country mostly and were provided for. 
 
 Q. Are there any of them who are in the church now ?—A. I am not 
 aware of any who are in the church. 
 
 Q. You think that those in the State outside of the church are doing 
 well ?—A. I have heard of some exceptions, but generally I think they 
 are doing as well as could be expected, considering how they came 
 there. 
 
 Q. Did you say that there are none in the church there now ?—A. I 
 am not able to say ; there are none who are out of employment that I 
 know of personally, except those in the church. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM S 3UTHERN STATES 
 
 349 
 
 Q. How many arc; at that church ?—A.. I could not say, but I should 
 infer there must have been over a hundred at the time I left. Eighty- 
 seven came in at one time, and there were some children who were not 
 enumerated. 
 
 Q. That is their headquarters ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is sort of like the emigrant headquarters, I presume, iu New 
 York City?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the arrivals continuing ?—A. The parties are not so numer¬ 
 ous as they were, and there are not so many in the parties when they 
 arrive now. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any expected increase in the numbers arriving?— 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do the Republicans and others generally expect any increasing 
 influx of them ?—A. I do not know anything about that. 
 
 Q. What are the chances for the Republicans carrying the State if 
 the people get there before the first of May?—A. I do not think that 
 will be dependent upon these colored people. 
 
 Q. You do not think that the Republicans are dependent on these 
 people to carry the State?—A. I do not think they are. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any more who are to come?—A No, sir; I am 
 not aware of any. 
 
 Q. Then the contributions that were made, if any were made by Re¬ 
 publicans, were for the purpose of taking care of these people there who 
 were suffering? And then you know of the payment for those twenty- 
 seven tickets to Greencastle?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not that in the nature of a charity?—A. I suppose so, as 
 they had to be supported somewhere. 
 
 Q. Either there or in Indianapolis ?—A. Yes, sir; but I do not know 
 where the money came from. 
 
 Q. I asked you if the use of that money to send these people to Green- 
 castle was not really a charity ? — A. I do not know whether they had 
 any money or not; I think some of them had ; one man, I heard, had 
 $1,200 and another had a large sum of money. 
 
 Q. What was the object of buying tickets for these people if they 
 could buy them themselves?—A. I understood they bought the tickets 
 for the poor and needy. 
 
 Q. Then it was a charity ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fair inference that the buying of these twenty-seven 
 tickets under the circumstances was a charitable act?—A. Yes, sir; it 
 was if they were needy and could not buy them themselves. 
 
 Q. So far as you are concerned you acted entirely iu a business way? 
 —A. Yes, sir; entirely. 
 
 Q. Y r ou did not act for political reasons ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a clerk at the Republican committee headquarters ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that he talked to you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you talk with Democrats ?—A. l r es, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you did not mean to say that he connected the Republican 
 party with this movement, because he talked to you ?—A. No, sir ; I 
 did not mean to be so understood. I do not connect the conversation 
 with the central committee at all. 
 
 Q. So far as \ou know and believe, is the exodus of the southern ne¬ 
 groes a political movement?—A. Originally I think it was not. 
 
 Q. What is it now?—A. 1 think it is. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. In speaking of Mr. Ilorton, you only meant to state the fact that 
 
350 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 a deputy clerk of tlie Republican State central committee of Indiana 
 came down to you and asked you how much it would cost to send these 
 people to Greencastle and Terre Haute?—A. I meant to say that Mr. 
 Horton came up only as a gentleman who knew me and asked me that 
 question. 
 
 Q. You think he left his clerkship behind when became to you?—A. 
 I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. He did not tell you so, did he?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are about the depot most of the time, are you not?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. I have a copy of the Indianapolis News, of the 31st of January, 
 1880. Is that a respectable paper?—A. I believe it is; it often says 
 things, however, that I do not agree with. 
 
 Q. It is the evening paper, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I see an article here wherein it says that “the party of negroes 
 which arrived here last night are still in the waiting room at the depot,’ 7 
 &c.; is that the party you referred to as arriving ? Or do you remem¬ 
 ber of a crowd being huddled up there for two or three days ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I think there was a crowd came in there, and staid several days. 
 But if they remained longer than Saturday I did not know it. 
 
 F. A. Arnold, sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you live ?—Answer. Greencastle, Ind. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?—A. I am a newspaper publisher. 
 
 Q. Of what paper?—A. The Star. 
 
 Q. Have you given some attention to this emigration of colored peo¬ 
 ple into your county ?—A. Well, my attention was first called to it by 
 articles published in the paper called The Banner, published in our town, 
 perhaps at the beginning of the summer, and I felt some interest in the 
 matter; looked after it a little in a business way; made some inquiries 
 in regard to it, and accidentally heard that circulars had been printed 
 in our town and sent to the South encouraging this emigration. I en¬ 
 deavored for some time to obtain a copy, but failed. I believe the first 
 copy of the circular that I ever read was furnished me by the sheriff of 
 our county, Mr. Lewman, probably in December. They had been 
 printed as early as June, if I remember aright. 
 
 Q. Here are the articles which have been produced before the com¬ 
 mittee.—A. I understand that you have them here in evidence. 
 
 - Q. I have a statement here, which appears to have been published in 
 your paper, which I would like you to look at and see if you identify it 
 as true of your own personal knowledge ? (Handing witness a paper.) 
 —A. (Examining.) Yes, sir; this is an interview with some of those 
 colored people who called at my office, and obtained money to go home 
 with. 
 
 Q. An interview with whom ?—A. Well, there were four of those 
 colored people from North Carolina, and a man by the name of McMer- 
 riek was rather the brighter of the four, and he was spokesman for them. 
 
 Q. Were they talking.with you?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is their conversation faithfully reported in that article ?—A. A r es, 
 sir; the substance of it. It is not in their dialect. 
 
 Q. I wish you would read that article.—A. This interview was on the 
 first Monday in December, if I remember aright, and the weather was 
 rather cold. 
 
 We were going to Kansas, but circulars were sent to our country from Greencastle, 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 351 
 
 Indiana, saying we could get good bouses there. Our delegates Perry, and Williams, 
 both of whom are teachers ami preachers, came back and told us that there was 
 houses here for 10,000 colored people or more. They said that the people of Putnam 
 County would furnish work for the colored people at .$15 and $25 a month, cow and 
 calf, garden, and wood to burn. I arrived; have no home furnished me, and “boss 77 
 says he cau’t do anything more for us. I have a family in South Carolina, and tele¬ 
 graphed them not to come. In the South I can make a better living than I can here, 
 and not freezing to death. We have nothing to wear but the clothes we have on ; no 
 underclothing; no overcoats; no warm shoes or stockings, and no money. The men 
 that telegraphed back to Carolina want to go there, where they have work, homes, 
 and warm weather. I seen the circulars from Greencastle that were sent asking us to 
 come up here. Massa Laugsdale took charge of us at Indianapolis and brought us to 
 Greencastle. In the South we got $7 to $d a month, house to live in, and ground to 
 raise garden stuff, corn, potatoes, &c., and an extra acre or two sometimes; and the 
 women can work there, too, in the fields and help support the children. They prom¬ 
 ised to pay our way back if we did uot like it here, but they won’t keep their prom¬ 
 ises; won’t give us homes, nor send us home. 
 
 The other clarkies in the party seconded McMerrick's story all the way through, and 
 wished for a chance to take the back track. 
 
 The Saturday afternoon previously, a number of these colored people 
 had gone to Vandalia depot, and had m ide up a pony-parse to carry 
 them back to North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Were they soliciting money from you to help them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they succeeded in raising money enough to 
 carry them back?—A. Well, I think not; when they came to my office 
 they had a written petition soliciting contributions. I think, perhaps, 
 they had a dollar or two subscribed. A few days afterwards, one of 
 my country correspondents wrote me that four colored persons, answer¬ 
 ing the description of the men who had been at my office, were tramp¬ 
 ing eastward, with the intention of going back to North Carolina—as 
 he termed it, kicking sand. 
 
 Q. Did you have other interviews with others of these emigrants ?— 
 A. Well, 1 do not remember any. I may have had casual interviews 
 with them—talking with them on the street. Nothing of importance, 
 however. 
 
 Q. What do you say on the subject as to whether there is a demand 
 for labor for the emigrants in Putnam County ?—A. I do not believe 
 there is any demand for it. I think there is more labor in our county 
 than there is capital to employ it. We have much spare land, but no 
 means to work it. Men have to subsist while they work it. 
 
 Q. Have you observed whether any of these emigrants are out of em¬ 
 ployment?—A. Many of them are out of employment. I see them 
 standing on the street corners. I do not know how many. I have in 
 my pocket a copy of The Banner, the paper which first encouraged this 
 movement, containing a correspondence from Fillmore, situated in the 
 township east of us, in which the correspondent says—I do not remem¬ 
 ber the exact language—the paragraph is this: 
 
 Wheat is iu a fine condition now. Corn ground is very scarce; a great many are un¬ 
 able to secure what they would like to put iu corn. 
 
 By {Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. What is the date of that ?—A. The 29th of January. I have re¬ 
 ceived it since I have been here. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is there any other point, Mr. Arnold, on which you wish to be 
 heard in regard to this subject?—A. 1 do not know of anything special. 
 
352 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF GENERAL GEORGE W. RUSS. 
 
 General George W. Russ sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. You may state your name and residence.—Answer. George 
 W. Russ ; Indianapolis, Ind. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ?—A. I am adjutant general of the State. 
 
 Q. State whether you have given any attention to the emigration that 
 has taken place of colored people into our State from North Carolina. 
 —A. I have, since I learned of the fact that negroes were being brought 
 into the State. 
 
 Q. I will ask you whether your acquaintance with the neighboring 
 people of Indianapolis and Marion Counties, and the parts thereabout 
 is general and full, or otherwise?—A. I am quite well acquainted with 
 the laboring classes in our city and elsewhere over the State. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to whether there is a demand for labor that 
 would call an emigration there at this time ?—A. I do not think there 
 is any demand at this time that would demand destitute people of any 
 color or class. 
 
 Q. You think there is no demand for laborers in our State, even though 
 they were willing to work?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that we have a great many idle people there who are 
 disposed to work and cannot get it?—A. A great many; I have seen a 
 great many. 
 
 Q. Have you looked into the question of the employment of these emi¬ 
 grants since their arrival ?—A. I only know what they have told me 
 when they called at my office. 
 
 Q. What have they told you ?—A. There have been a great many at 
 my office who said they failed in getting employment. Resident colored 
 men have also called on me and denounced the movement, stating that 
 there was no occasion for colored people coming there; that is, people 
 in their condition, their financial condition. 
 
 Q. You mean by that that the resident colored people are opposed to 
 this emigration ?—A. Some of them are. 
 
 Q. There are politicians among the colored people as well as amongst 
 the white people, are there not ?—A. Yes, sir ; some pretty shrewd ones. 
 
 Q. Well, how is it on that point? Do the colored politicians oppose 
 or favor this emigration?—A. I think, Senator, with few exceptions 
 they oppose it. 
 
 Q. Who do you rank as the leading politicians of the colored folks at 
 Indianapolis?—A, Dr. S. A. Elbert, Moses K. Broyles, James S. Hinton, 
 and R. B. Bagby. 
 
 Q. You named Dr. Elbert, Bagby, Hinton, and Broyles ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, what is their position on this exodus of their race from North 
 Carolina?—A. I think, with the exception of Bagby, the others whom 
 I have named are doing all they can to assist this emigration. 
 
 Q. To promote it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. That is, the leaders of the colored people there?—A. Yes, sir; 
 with the exception of R. B. Bagby. I suppose he objects. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You misunderstand me or I you. I asked you whether the lead¬ 
 ing politicians of the colored people of Indianapolis were in favor of or 
 opposed to it ?—A. I said with a few exceptions. I named all the ex 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 353 
 
 ceptions and the leading politicians. I answered yon, and said that I 
 thought those whom I have named were in favor of it except Bagby, 
 and he is opposed to it. 
 
 Bv Senator Blair : 
 
 €/ 
 
 Q. So that your statement is that the colored politicians are opposed 
 to the exodus ?—A. No, sir; I have named the colored politicians. Did 
 you ask me for the colored politicians"? 
 
 Q. I said the colored politicians.—A. I thought you said the colored 
 population. I would have to answer that the majority of them are. 
 They seem to be. 
 
 Q. Hinton is quite a leading man ?—A. Yes, sir; about the only col¬ 
 ored man who got a place under the Republican party while they were 
 in power in our State, the only one who got a place of any prominence. 
 
 Q. Now, if I understood you correctly, the politicians of the colored 
 race are disposed to favor this movement, while the body of their peo¬ 
 ple are not as favorably inclined to it?—A. I think the large majority 
 of the colored people of our city are opposed to it. 
 
 Q. It is taxing their charity to the utmost, is it not?—A. They are 
 complaining bitterly. 
 
 Q. Do they complain upon that poiut?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they talked to you in regard to it!—A. Yes, sir; a great 
 many of them or quite a number. 
 
 Q. Well, how do they put their complaint?—A. They say that they 
 are a poor people, they have too little to live upon themselves, and to 
 tax them with providing houses and sustenance for the emigrants is 
 more than they can afford. 
 
 Q. How do those colored people now residents at Indianapolis—I ask 
 for information—how do they account for this avalanche in their midst 
 of their colored brethren from North Carolina?—A. A great many of 
 them seem to be anxious to know the cause and ask me such questions, 
 if I knew. I tell them I do not; I only had an opinion. Others have 
 expressed opinions as to the cause. 
 
 Q. Do they in any respect look upon it as apolitical fraud ?—A. Some 
 of them do. One colored man, quite an intelligent man among them, 
 has been quite independent in his politics, but is classed as a Republi¬ 
 can, told me that he was a member of the relief committee appointed at a 
 meeting of the colored people; that they had a suspicion that other parties 
 were operating in this, that is, that they were interested in bringing the 
 parties there and proposed making this committee responsible for their 
 relief or protection while they were there, and consequently responsible 
 for any suffering. They appointed James S. Hinton, so he informed 
 me, who was a member of the relief committee, to visit the Republican 
 State central committee room, to learn, if possible, if there was any other 
 arrangement that they were not aware of. The informatien that Hinton 
 reported to the committee was that at the State central committee rooms 
 he was informed that Mr. Byrom, Hinton, and McKay were acting for 
 the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. My attention was diverted for a moment. 
 
 The Witness. This relief committee appointed James S. Hinton to 
 visit the Republican State central committee rooms, and learn, if pos¬ 
 sible, if anything was being doue that this committee was not aware of, 
 any moneys that they were collecting that they were not handling. He 
 informed me that Hinton reported to the comm tee that he was informed 
 at the Republican State central committee ro ms that Mr. Byrom, of In- 
 
 23 EX 
 
354 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 dianapolis, and Captain McKay, were acting for the State central com 
 mittee. 
 
 Q. Byrom and McKay, who are they!—A. They are both city coun- 
 cilmen—prominent men in our State. 
 
 Q. What color are they!—A. White. 
 
 Q. What is the color of their politics !—A. They are Republicans! 
 
 Q. What were Byrom and McKay doing in these movements!—A. 
 This committee were informed—so he told me—by Byrom and McKay, 
 that Moses K. Broyles, colored, and S. A. Elbert, also colored, were 
 handling the funds. They notified both Byrom and McKay—so he in¬ 
 formed me—that they refused to act longer for other colored men who 
 were handling the money collected. 
 
 Q. Now what money was he alluding to that was collected!—A. That 
 I do not know. I am only giving you the information that he furnished 
 me. This committee appointed by the colored people refused to act 
 longer as a relief committee unless they had the handling of the funds, 
 the money collected, or the money used. This colored man who told me 
 said he would not act no longer on a relief committee if they had to 
 bear the burden, and if they could not use the funds they refused to act 
 longer. 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to giving the name of your informant ?— 
 A. W. H. Woods. 
 
 Q. General, if you have an opinion that this is a political movement 
 on the part of certain prominent Republicans in Indiana to get colored 
 voters in there to control elections with, you may give the reasons that 
 have led you to such a conclusion !—A. At first, Senator, I did not think 
 it was a political movement; I thought it was got up by colored men to 
 make money from the railroad companies, but from what I have learned 
 since, and conversations that I have had with white and colored Repub¬ 
 licans, I have changed my opinion, and am now of the opinion that it 
 was a political movement at that time. 
 
 Q. Well, are there any points that you desire to give as bearing upon 
 your change of opinion, and as causing it!—A. In conversation with 
 different parties who came into the office, invariably I found Republican 
 politicians favoring it. I saw a subscription list for the purpose that 
 had been taken around by a colored man, upon which were the names 
 of the prominent Republicans of our city, subscribing from $5 to $10 
 each—1 believe $10.50; and I have failed to see the name of any Dem¬ 
 ocrat. I asked this gentleman why he did not call upon Democrats, and 
 he said that he had instructions not to do so. 
 
 Q. Did a good many colored men talk with you!—A. Permit me to 
 say that I am considered quite a friend of theirs in Indianapolis. I was 
 on Mr. Hinton’s bond when he was State commissioner, and I have done 
 a good deal of work for them. I have helped and labored, and I suffer 
 for it to-day. 
 
 Q. So that there is not a very marked hostility between you and the 
 colored people of Indianapolis !—A. No, there is not. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. They helped a little in preserving the Union in the late unpleas¬ 
 antness!—A. I have always been of the opinion, Senator, and it was my 
 opinion then, that we could have had all the honor of putting down the 
 rebellion without their assistance. 
 
 Senator Blair. Very likely; I do not want to interrupt the examina¬ 
 tion. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You say they came and talked with you, general; did not all of 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 355 
 
 the emigrants come and talk with you on this subject?—A. Yes, sir; 
 there have been several in there begging money. 
 
 Q. How did they seem to be pleased with their new homes ?—A. Some 
 seemed to be very much displeased; some seemed to be very anxious to 
 get back to their old places. 
 
 Q. Recurring again to its political character, have you ever seen a 
 -Republican newspaper oppose this emigration or advise against it ?—A. 
 I have not. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that where they do not directly encourage it, they 
 abuse the Democrats for opposing it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There used to be an old term applied to the Democratic party, 
 charging it with sympathizing with the rebellion ; how would that term 
 describe the attitude, in your opinion, of the Republican parly in en¬ 
 couraging the emigration of the colored people into the State of In¬ 
 diana, taking the principles of the leading men of the town and the 
 conversation among them as to the immigration of North Carolina ne¬ 
 groes into our State; that is to sa.v, do they not, as a general rule, sym¬ 
 pathize with the movement ?—A. I think, Senator, that the sympathies 
 of the Republicans in Indiana with this movement are much stronger, 
 much more universal, than were the Democratic sympathies for the Con¬ 
 federate cause. 
 
 The Chairman. Y r es ; I have not a doubt of it. 
 
 Senator Windom. He is stating it pretty strong. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I hold in my hand a paper that it seems to me I have not seen 
 before, the Indianapolis Journal, dated Saturday, February 12. It is a 
 paper that has just been laid down before me; consequently, you and I 
 cannot be charged with having concocted the production ot this testi¬ 
 mony, because you have not seen it, nor have I, and I have not had 
 time to read the whole article. You identify this as the Indianapolis 
 Journal of February 12?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. An article headed, “Our colored citizens; a meeting at the Col¬ 
 ored Baptist Church last night. What has been done by the North 
 Carolinians, and where the help came from.” It is a long article, au I 
 states how the amount was raised and how it has been expended, as 
 follows : 
 
 The mass meeting held at the Second Baptist Church (colored) last night to consider 
 the workings of the relief societies among the colored immigrants was well attended. 
 Rev. Moses Broyles presided. The business of the evening was the report of the Em¬ 
 igrant Aid Society. At the close of the meeting Mr. Burley, of Bloomington, Ind., 
 engaged several of the immigrants to goto Monroe County to work on farms. The 
 following is the report of the committee : 
 
 “On Wednesday evening, December 3, 1879, a meeting was held in the lecture room 
 of the Second Baptist Church to organize an aid or relief society to care for the col¬ 
 ored emigrants, as we learned that some of them were on their way here from North 
 Carolina, and that they would arrive here destitute. After the preliminary organiza¬ 
 tion of the meeting, the object of the same being stated, on motion it was voted that 
 a society be organized to-night for the purpose of helping and caring for those peo¬ 
 ple when they arrive here, similar to and in co-operation with the relief society which 
 was organized at the A. M. E. Church November 24. It was further resolved that 
 the organization be known as the Christian Emigration Aid Society, Rev. Moses 
 Broyles, president; Rev. Wm. Singleton, vice-president; Mr. G. W. Prince, secretary ; 
 Mr. Conrad Burley, corresponding secretary; and Rev. J. R. Raynor, treasurer, with 
 the other three Baptist ministers, viz: N. Simons, Thomas Smith, and C. C. Wilson, 
 honorary officers, as they brought their churches into the organization. The society 
 organized with the representatives from the six colored Baptist churches of this city. 
 There was also an executive committee appointed to co-operate with the other officers 
 of the society, consisting of two members from each church, Messrs. R. B. Turner and 
 B. Rankins, of the Second Church ; Messrs. Jesse McCroclilin audThomas Pentacost, of 
 the Mount Zion Church; Messrs. Wesley Jackson and Stephen Williams, of the New 
 
356 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Bethel Church; Messrs. David Tucker and Wm. Whitehead, of the Olivet Church; 
 Messrs. Siah Russell and Solomon Moss, of the Tabernacle Church ; Messrs. Thomas 
 Durham and Charles Williams, of the Calvary. All these officers and ministers consti¬ 
 tute the executive board of the organization. This board has been holding weekly 
 meetings since that time, and appointing sub-committees to meet the people at the 
 depot, and see that they are cared for. On the night of December 4 eighty-seven immi¬ 
 grants arrived. Although fifty had gone on to Greencastle several weeks previously, 
 these eighty-seven were the first who stopped at Indianopolis. Although the arrival 
 of these found our society without money or provisions, the churches, committee, and 
 ministers sent provisions to them, and a committee of ladies prepared a nice breakfast 
 the morning of December 5, and our committee went to the committee of the relief 
 society of the Vermont Street Church and in for hied them that we were prepared to 
 take care of half of those people who arrived. Accordingly they were divided, half of 
 the emigrants remaining at the Vermont Street A. M. E. Church and half came 
 to the Second Baptist Church. From that time up to Christmas, there arrived in 
 the city 460 emigrants from North Carolina. These were about equally divided be¬ 
 tween the two societies, who were about equally efficient iu providing and finding 
 them homes and employment. About the 20th of December, the people taken care of 
 by the relief society at the A. M. E. Church were removed to the Blackford Street 
 Zion Methodist Church. December 24 the Christ an Emigrant Aid Society rented 
 the hall on the con er of California and Pratt streets and removed the people from the 
 lecture room of the Second Baptist Church to that place, wdiere those who have ar¬ 
 rived since have been temporarily quartered until they found homes and employment. 
 About that time the relief society ceased entirely to meet and call for the emigrants 
 as they arrived in the city. The two hundred who arrived on New Year’s eve were pro¬ 
 vided and cared for by the Christian Emigrant Aid Society. Six hundred and twenty- 
 five emigrants have arrived since the relief society ceased To help them in any way. 
 This burden has since that entirely fallen upon the Christian Emigrart Aid Society. 
 Since that time this society has had an average of from twenty-five to two hundred 
 emigrants. This has been very heavy upon this society, the members of 'which are 
 all poor. As before stated, the society was without money when the first emigrants 
 arrived. The churches and committees brought in provisions abundantly for the peo¬ 
 ple for the first few days. Then the churches commenced holding prayer meetings 
 among the emigrants. As they (the emigrants) were gcod revival singers and 
 prayers, many people came to hear them. At the close of these meetings we lifted 
 collections, all of which amounted to $50. About the same valuation in provisions 
 were given by the churches and friends, so that up to the 17th of December we had 
 collected through'the six churches $50 in money and $50 worth of provisions and cloth¬ 
 ing. On the evening of 17th December the board met, and seeing that the churches 
 were unable to support the emigrants who were abundantly coming, appointed a 
 soliciting committee to go out into the city and collect money and provisions. The 
 soliciting committee consisted of Mr. Conrad Burley, Rev. J. R. Raynor, Rev. Ander¬ 
 son Simmons, Rev. Wm. Singleton, Rev. Moses Broyles, Rev. E. C. Wilson, and Rev. 
 Thos. Smith. 
 
 This committee has collected iu money. $246 85 
 
 Money raised by the churches. 50 00 
 
 Total raised. 
 
 Which has been expended as follows:. 
 
 To 2 months’ house rent. 
 
 To 5 stoves for emigrants. 
 
 To cooking and washing things.. 
 
 To carpenter work and materials_ 
 
 To washing and other help. 
 
 To lamp-oil. 
 
 To cleaning up the church. 
 
 To whitewashing same after they left 
 
 To lamp-oil and candles. 
 
 To meat and salt. 
 
 To bread and meal. 
 
 To railroad fare. 
 
 To hominy. 
 
 To beans. 
 
 To wood. 
 
 To coal. 
 
 To sugar and coffee. 
 
 Total amount paid out. 
 
 , 296 
 
 85 
 
 #12 
 
 00 
 
 23 
 
 14 
 
 3 
 
 50 
 
 5 
 
 14 
 
 3 
 
 50 
 
 4 
 
 40 
 
 3 
 
 25 
 
 3 
 
 00 
 
 5 
 
 15 
 
 53 
 
 15 
 
 45 
 
 25 
 
 53 
 
 75 
 
 10 
 
 15 
 
 11 
 
 40 
 
 25 
 
 25 
 
 29 
 
 50 
 
 6 
 
 25 
 
 296 85 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 357 
 
 Balance, nothing. 
 
 The above is what has been collected and expended. The society is indebted as fol¬ 
 lows : 
 
 To Thomas Nelson for w r ood. $4 00 
 
 To Win. Porter for wood. 3 50 
 
 To T. Eames for meat. 4 60 
 
 To Louis Weasner for groceries. 3 88 
 
 To Geisensauner for bread. 4 50 
 
 To Mr. Amsley for meal. 50 
 
 To house-rent due the 24th instant .. 6 00 
 
 Total indebtedness 
 
 23 98 
 
 “ The means of the society are entirely exhausted, and we need only the money to pay 
 indebtedness, but there are families in the city who need help, and we ask a generous 
 public, in behalf of humanity, to help the society to prevent those people from suffer¬ 
 ing until the^ can find employment. They came here expecting to obtain remunera¬ 
 tive employment. Just so soon as they are so employed, they don’t have to be helped. 
 The society has not, directly or indirectly, expended a cent in aiding a single emi¬ 
 grant to come to the State or city, and it is determined not to spend any iu that way. 
 There has come into the State from North Carolina, since they commenced, 1,135, in¬ 
 cluding women and children ; about one-fourth of these are men.” 
 
 Senator Blair. What date is that? 
 
 The Chairman. This is Saturday, and it falls under the notice of this 
 Emigrant Aid Society. 
 
 Q. (To the witness.) You would concur iu that statement from your 
 knowledge?—A. Heartily. 
 
 Q. Do you regard it as a kindness to the colored race for them to be 
 taken to Indiana in the winter time and quartered there at Indianapolis 
 upon the charity of their own race and the white race, in the present 
 condition of our labor system?—A. I consider it a very great outrage 
 upon our people, and also upon those negroes who were seut there. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. What is your official position iu Indiana?—A. I am adjutant-gen¬ 
 eral of the State. 
 
 Q. Your political sentiments are Democratic, of course ?—A. At pres¬ 
 ent they are. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a Democrat ?—A. Since plundering, and 
 robbing, and whisky-rings, and carpet bag rule in this country. 
 
 Q. Can you fix the date when you experienced this change of politi¬ 
 cal sentiment ?—A. When I became convinced that I was on the wrong 
 side—immediately. I was four years, I think, in changing my opinions. 
 
 Q. About when did you comumnce to act with the Democratic party ? 
 —A. fn 1870. 
 
 Q. When did this robbing, plundering, and so forth, which you men¬ 
 tion, occur in the Republican party ?—A. Well, there was a good deal 
 of it during Grant’s first administration, and a great deal more of it iu 
 his last administration. 
 
 Q. It commenced in 1870 ?—A. I voted for him twice, however. 
 
 Q. Well, to leave that part of it, allow me to ask you if you yourself 
 have taken considerable interest as a Democratic politician in promoting 
 this investigation ?—A. Not as a politician. 
 
 Q. As a Democrat?—A. Individually, I have. 
 
 Q. You have been anxious for the investigation, have you?—A. I 
 have been anxious that the facts should come out. 
 
 Q. You have spent considerable time in making inquiries and pro¬ 
 curing evidence for its presentation here, h ive you not?—A. Nearly all 
 of it came to my office without solicitation. 
 
358 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. It sought you, then ?—A. Yes, sir. If I am not mistaken as to the 
 reputation I have in my city, any one who is in a suffering condition or 
 imposed upon would come to my office who knows me. 
 
 Q. Not in relation to your political sentiments at all ?—A. Independ¬ 
 ently of those. 
 
 Q. So that your connection with or the knowledge you have of this 
 exodus in no sense results from your interested political character as a 
 Democratic politician, but rather as a humanitarian ?—A. Both. 
 
 Q. To what extent do you think that you have been identified with 
 the political aspect of this investigation ?—A. When I became satisfied 
 in my own mind that the Republican party was perpetrating this out¬ 
 rage, or interested in it, or encouraging the immigration of these poor, 
 ignorant, destitute people into our State, I then took quite an interest 
 against the party. 
 
 Q. When did your conviction come that the Republican party was 
 encouraging it? How long—a week ago?—A. Perhaps a month ago. 
 
 Q. And since that time you have been making active investigations 
 as a politician into it?—A. No, sir; not as a politician. 
 
 Q. I do not use the term in an offensive sense. We are all politicians, 
 or want to be.—A. I felt this way : If it could be proved that the Demo¬ 
 cratic party was responsible for this exodus, I was willing to lend any 
 aid 1 could to convict them. 
 
 Q. I wanted to get your real animus. Now you state that at some 
 time you were persuaded that it was a political movement, but I have 
 not understood you to state any very definite evidence of it. Will you 
 not state the evidence, not the surmises, and what it was that changed 
 your opinion as to the political aspect of this exodus?—A. We form 
 opinions not from an isolated fact, but from the general inferences that 
 we may gather from a combination of facts. It is a fact, and a notori¬ 
 ous fact, that the Republican press of the State is encouraging it, and 
 that alone ought to satisfy me that the party is interested in it. 
 
 Q. Can you mention any other fact besides this that the Republican 
 press generally encourage it in Indiana?—A. The Republicans in the 
 city with whom I have talked, while some of them do not seem to en¬ 
 courage it directly, they defend it. 
 
 Q. Thus, they say this, that these people have a perfect right to come 
 to Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As good a right to come as white people?—A. I have heard that 
 argu m en t freq u en tly. 
 
 Q. Do you object to that?—A. Do I object to it ? 
 
 Q. Do you object to these people going there with the same induce¬ 
 ments and the same desire for freedom as the white people who come to 
 Indiana?—A. I certainly would not advise them to come. 
 
 Q. But suppose they elected to come, saw fit to come, you would ad¬ 
 vise any destitute person not to come to Indiana?—A. I suppose they 
 have a right to come. 
 
 Q. Well, these Republicans whom you speak of simply defend their 
 right to come, the same right as they say everybody has a right to come 
 to Indiana? —A. You remember that Mr. Mills did not put it in that 
 way. He said they wanted some 20,000 bucks there. 
 
 Q. I was asking you what you based it upon, and you say Republicans 
 defend their right to come the same as they defend the right of every¬ 
 body else to come ?—A. Yes, sir; I say that some of them come because 
 they want their votes. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that Republicans want them to come as 
 paupers, and with the prospect that they will remain as paupers,simply 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 359 
 
 because they want their votes ?—A. I do not believe that one-fourtli of 
 the people of the State of Indiana desire them to come, or would en¬ 
 courage it. 
 
 Q. And you don’t say that the Republicans, generally, desire them to 
 cornel?—A. I say that the leading Republicans desire it. 
 
 Q. Can a pauper vote in Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; he can. 
 
 By the Cn airman : 
 
 Q. They don’t require a property qualification in Indiana as they 
 would up in the New England States to enable them to vote?—A. A 
 man may be ever so poor, but he is not too poor to cast a ballot in In¬ 
 diana. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. That is good ; and you base your opposition to the colored man 
 coming there upon the ground, simple and purely in your own mind, 
 that he is too poor to get a living in Indiana?—A. Will you let me 
 answer in my own language. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; in your own way.—A. I oppose it, first, because there is 
 no demand for his labor; he will only meet with suffering and want. 
 
 Q. That reason applies to all the laboring people coming there, does 
 it not; all poor people coming to Indiana?—A. Destitute people, pau¬ 
 pers; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Laboring people—laboring emigrants—who are obliged to depend 
 upon their labor for a living; that is what you mean, is it not?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I don’t think there is any demand for that class of labor. 
 
 Q. Your opinion is so broad that it covers the white as well as the 
 negro?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are strong and vigorous, able to do work?—A. I have not 
 seen any of them doing work. 
 
 Q. But you have seen these people, and they are able, strong, vigorous 
 men ; able to do work, are they not?—A. If I was going to select a man 
 to work upon a farm I would certainly select some one not on account 
 of any political prejudice, because I may state I have very little against 
 the negro, but I would select some one other than the negro; I would 
 prefer a German. 
 
 * Q. You are a very intelligent gentleman, at any rate, if not a lawyer; 
 with little less circumlocution I ask you whether these colored men and 
 women who come there are not strong healthy people?—A. I think not, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Well, I will ask it in this way; do you not think they are fair 
 representatives of the laboriug population of the South, or of the colored 
 laboring population of all parts of the country ?—A. Senator Yance 
 would be a better witness on that question. 
 
 Q. He is not under oath.—A. I will give my opinion; those who are 
 the better class of blacks are not coming to our State. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by the better class?—A. I will explain it in 
 this way; an industrious black man in the South will have a home. 
 
 Q. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you as to the per¬ 
 sonal vigor of these colored people who are coming to Indiana. 
 
 The Chairman. Let the witness have a little chance. 
 
 The Witness. I have seen some from the South, very healthy men, 
 that you could not get a day’s work out of in the year. 
 
 Q. Y r ou have disconnected that other answer from the question I am 
 asking you. Did you not say that this population, who come there, have 
 come there as paupers; that you did not consider it a laboring popula- 
 
360 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 tion ?—A. I certainly don’t consider them capitalists; they certainly 
 have not the balance with the bondholders. 
 
 Q. I will give it up, as I don’t see you will answer the question.—A. 
 I don’t know whether a majority of them are willing to work or not. 
 
 Q. I do not wish to talk with you about it because it comes to noth¬ 
 ing, but let me ask you if this colored population, as a rule, who have 
 come out there during the exodus have been distributed through all 
 parts of that State ?—A. Did you say a majority of them ? 
 
 Q. Y r es, sir. Now, I want you to be sure and understand me. I don’t 
 want >ou to understand me if the children are not at work and getting 
 a living, if the population that comes to that State is not now self-sus¬ 
 taining?—A. From the information that I have now, it is my judgment 
 that one-half of them had employment. 
 
 Q. But my question is, whether, as a whole, these 1,000 people or so 
 who have come there are not to-day self-sustaining; there may be a few 
 who are not earning their living, but are they not earning as an entirety 
 more than they are expending in that State ?—A. Let me digress a lit¬ 
 tle. I don’t know the condition of the parties who are sent in the inte¬ 
 rior portion of the State. 
 
 Q. You understand they have gone there to get work ?—A, But I 
 spoke of those who have remained there at Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. O, I mean- A. I cannot answer for those who have gone else¬ 
 
 where. 1 understand there were two carloads that went yesterday. I 
 don’t understand that there is any employment for them. 
 
 Q. You don’t understand, as a whole, that this population who have 
 come into your State, 1,000 or so, are self-sustaining?—A. I don’t. 
 
 Q. This is the winter season?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You expect that they will suffer soon?—A. No, sir; I don’t think 
 they will in our city now. 
 
 Q. You don’t think that these colored people will be able to get a 
 living ?—A. No, sir; there are a great many in our city now who do not 
 get a living. 
 
 Q. A great many will starve to death in Indiana, will they not?—A. 
 A great many more are destitute who were there before these people 
 went there. 
 
 Q. Are any of these people who went to Indianapolis employed in 
 that city since they went there?—A. I don’t know of any. 
 
 Q. How many do you actually know of in that city who have come 
 from North Carolina or elsewhere in the progress of this exodus ?—A. 
 I could only answer that by memory and from seeing them puss by 
 the office. My office is on the street opposite the other State offices, and 
 I could only see them in the street passing by. 
 
 Q. You say you know of none who have found employment?—A. I 
 state that I don’t know of any. I could not name one. 
 
 Q. You don’t know very much about it in that way ?—A. I know more 
 perhaps concerning those who are destitute and who come to my office 
 seeking assistance than I do of those who have been successful, who 
 have been getting employment. 
 
 Q. Many of them have gone to other parts of the State, have they 
 not?—A. There may have been many. 
 
 Q. Don’t you think it at all strange that in the progress of such a 
 movement there, in the transit would be more or less of suffering, and 
 that without regard to the colored emigrant, while people are in this 
 state of transit?—A. I think it depends a great deal upon the section 
 of country they would move from whether they would be acclimated or 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 361 
 
 not. I don’t think there would be us much suffering in moving from 
 Ohio into Indiana or from Pennsylvania to New York. 
 
 Q. But is it not a fact that in all great movements of population there 
 is more or less individual suffering. You recollect the Pilgrims had a 
 hard time in the first settlement of this country ?—A. Well, there is 
 more or less suffering occasioned from moving from one locality to 
 another, and more coming from the South. 
 
 Q. You could not condemn this movement as a whole because 27 per¬ 
 sons had died in Indiana ?—A. That is in Indiana in a very short time. 
 
 Q. At t)ue time in Indianapolis, a great city, where they have arrived 
 and where the people suffering would be likely to be left ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you have known something of the inclination of these 
 people to get back ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of them actually getting back to North 
 Carolina?—A. I don’t. 
 
 Q. Hawe you known the fact which one witness mentioned that many, 
 or at least some, of these emigrants were men of property ?—A. I have 
 heard some of them had means, but never met any of them. 
 
 Q. What amount have you understood that some of them possessed ?— 
 A. Well, I have never heard any amount at all; on the stand this morn - 
 iug when a witness said $20,000. 
 
 Q. Have you any at this moment information which would lead you 
 to modify your statement that these people are paupers?—A. There 
 may be an isolated exception, but from their appearance and from the 
 conversation I have had with them, I would certainly class them as 
 paupers, destitute people. 
 
 Q. But would you notadmit now that they are generally people wholook 
 as though they could earn their living if they had the chance to work ?— 
 A. I would feel very much discouraged if I had as large a family as some 
 of them have, with no bedding, clothing, or house to make a living in 
 Indiana; it takes less for them to live in North Carolina than it would 
 in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Is it not likely that they would get a pretty solid compensation for 
 their labor in Indiana; are not wages higher in Indiana than in the 
 South ?—A. t have posted myself more in reference to that. I have 
 4 some interest in the South. I have said this to my friends. I am speak¬ 
 ing of laboring men. Northern Alabama has the same climate as North 
 Carolina, very much the same climate. 
 
 Senator Vance. Very nearly the same. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q, But the question is as to whether you are posted as to the wages 
 paid in Northern Alabama?—A. I have advised a great many of my 
 friends to go there, in preference to remaining in Indiana, where they 
 can buy lands much cheaper. 
 
 Q. You are not sending paupers down there; you are not encourag¬ 
 ing a movement of that kind ?—A. If a man has not a dollar in tlie 
 world, or a home, or much clothing to wear, I don’t know that I could 
 give him much advice. 
 
 Q. I asked you if, as a rule, you are not aware that the wages are 
 higher in the North than in the South, though I don’t limit it to North 
 Carolina or Indiana?—A. If the same class of laborers who are coming 
 to Indiana could do better in Alabama, I would advise them to go 
 there in preference to remaining in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Irrespective of politics?—A. l r es, sir. My plantation is in a Re¬ 
 publican district. 
 
362 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Then you have not any definite knowledge more than you stated ; 
 you don ; t know whether these are better off in Indiana than in North. 
 Carolina or not?—A. Taking everything into consideration, the number 
 of days that they can work, and the expense of living, I think the 
 wages better in Northern Alabama than they are in Indiana for labor¬ 
 ing men. 
 
 Q. Well, that is one reason why you are opposed to the exodus, is it 
 not?—A. I stated the cause of my opposition. 
 
 Q. Well, General, then I understand from you that you claim that 
 wages are better and higher in the South than in the Northern States, 
 and that understanding is one of the reasons why you are opposed to 
 the colored man coming to the State of Indiana ?—A. I have not stated 
 that the per diem is higher in Alabama than it is in the Northern States. 
 I said I would consider the wages in Alabama—I think that the wages 
 are better in Alabama than in Indiana. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. I understood you to say, General, that one reason why you thought 
 this exodus was a political movement was because the subscribers to the 
 papers for relief contained none but Republican names. Did you say 
 that?—A. Perhaps I named that among other things. 
 
 Q. And you thought that because Republicans, and none others, sub¬ 
 scribed to the relief of these people, that therefore it was a political 
 movement?—A. I do not know, Senator, whether that money was paid 
 for the bread and butter and clothing of these people, or whether it was 
 paid for their railroad fare. If I had known for what purpose it was 
 used, I might have changed my opinion. 
 
 Q. But you do not know for what purpose it was used?—A. No, sir; 
 I do not know. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed the entire amount that was raised, as it is stated 
 in the paper from which Mr.Voorhees just read? (Referring to. The In¬ 
 dianapolis Journal of date February 12, 1880.)—A. No, sir; 1 do not 
 think I heard the amount, but it is under $300 I know. 
 
 Q. Did you not hear of any Democrats subscribing to this relief fund ? 
 Would you suppose that they would encourage the raising of money for 
 this fund ?—A. I would not. 
 
 Q. Why would you suppose that it was for political purposes in the 
 one case and not in the other ?—A. If it had been presented to Repub¬ 
 licans and Democrats alike, I would have thought that it was a hu¬ 
 manitarian movement, and subscribed for charitable purposes alone, 
 but it had the ear marks of a Republican document, when I looked at it. 
 
 Q. Now this report from which the chairman read shows a total 
 amount of $296.85, raised for the relief of these people in your city ?— 
 A. Whose report is it ? 
 
 Q. It is the report made at this meeting by the committee. I will 
 read to you. (Reading from The Indianapolis Journal of February 12, 
 1880): “The mass meeting held in the Second Baptist Church (col¬ 
 ored) last night, to consider the workings of the relief society among 
 the colored emigrants, was well attended, the Rev. Moses Broiles pre¬ 
 siding,” &c. It gives a report of the money raised by friends of the 
 colored people there, and the total amount paid it states at $296.85, 
 and it itemizes the accounts for which it was paid.—A. Does it name the 
 tickets which were purchased ? 
 
 Q. It does not.—A. Does it name the twenty-five dollars paid to 
 Williams and Perry here? 
 
 Q. It does not mention any tickets at all. Do you know whether 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 363 
 
 $25 was paid for tickets ?—A. I do not; that is wliat I wanted to find 
 out. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any $25 being raised ?—A. I know of its being 
 raised by bearing tbe testimony here. 
 
 Q. You say that the Republican papers, so far as you have seen them, 
 all sympathize in this movement ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Their sympathy in it is strong, isn’t it, apparently ?—A. It is not 
 to be mistaken, sir. 
 
 Q. Any more, do you think, than in the other case you spoke of?— 
 A. To what do you refer? 
 
 Q. You spoke of the sympathy of the Democratic papers for the re¬ 
 bellion. Do you think that the Republican papers are as strong in 
 their sympathies for this movement as the Democratic papers were in 
 favor of the rebellion ?—A. I was a boy in the Army at that time and 
 
 I- 
 
 Q. Didn’t get the papers, I suppose?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood your answer to Mr. Voorhees’question awhile ago to 
 be that you thought the sympathies of the Republican papers were even 
 stronger in favor of the present exodus than the Democratic papers 
 were in favor of the rebellion ?—A. That was my opinion from the sen¬ 
 timents I had heard. 
 
 Q. Then you made that comparison to show how strong the sympa¬ 
 thies of the Republican press of Indiana are in favor of this exodus, did 
 you?—A. Well, 1 would make it even stronger, perhaps. 
 
 Q. But it serves you for the purpose of a comparison, does it?—A. I 
 hardly know whether I ought to make such a comparison, for I have 
 only resided in Indiana since the war. 
 
 Q. Well, didn’t you agree with the comparison made by the chair¬ 
 man ?—A. I only answered that in my opinion the Republican papers 
 are much more unanimous in favor of the present exodus than the 
 Democratic papers were in indorsing the rebellion. 
 
 Q. But you do not know what the Democratic papers did at that 
 time?—A. No, I do not; I only judge from the Democrats f met then, 
 and that I meet and talk with now, as to the course they pursued in the 
 war. 
 
 Q. Then the comparison suggested by the chairman as to the Dem¬ 
 ocratic sympathy with the rebellion and the Republican sympathy with 
 the present exodus does not amount to much in your case, because you 
 can only judge from hearsay, and not from your knowledge?—A. Well, 
 it may not amount to much as a comparison ; I speak only from gen¬ 
 eral impressions made at the time in the Army. I met General Manson, 
 who is here, in the Army; he was a Democrat then and he is a Democrat 
 now. 
 
 Q. He did not edit a paper then ?—A. No; he was in the Army then. 
 
 Q. But we are speaking of papers now.—A. The only knowledge I 
 have is what I then knew and what I have heard since. 
 
 Q, Then you cannot very well make the comparison which the chair¬ 
 man suggested in his question to yon ?—A. Perhaps not, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you heard anything of this Democratic exodus from Ken¬ 
 tucky into Indiana ?—A. Not until you asked the question. 
 
 Q. You didn’t hear of it in the papers ?—A. No, sir. 
 
364 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W. H. WOODS. 
 
 Washington, D. C., February 13, 1880. 
 
 W. H. Woods sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your name, Mr. Woods.—Auswer. AY. H. Woods. 
 
 Q. And your residence.—A. Indianapolis, Ind. 
 
 Q. Aud your occupation.—A. I am a barber by trade. 
 
 Q. IIow long have you lived in Indianapolis, Mr. AA 7 oods?—A. I 
 have lived there about four years and a half—four years possibly—about 
 four years and a half. 
 
 Q. AVhere did you live before that ?—A. I lived in Parsons, Kans., 
 before that. 
 
 Q. Are you a Northern man by birth ?—A. No, sir; I am not. 
 
 Q. AYhat State were you born in ?—A. In Tennessee—Nashville, 
 Tenn. 
 
 Q. You are a Republican in politics, Mr. Woods?—A. I am, sir. 
 
 Q. You take some interest in politics as well as other people at In¬ 
 dianapolis?—A. A little, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether you have taken an interest in these people that have 
 come to our State from North Carolina.—A. I have taken no interest in 
 getting them there. 
 
 Q. No, but since their arrival.—A. I am a member of the citizens’ 
 relief committee, aud have had something to do with taking care of 
 those that have come. 
 
 Q. AVell, what duties have you performed in that respect, Mr. Woods ? 
 —A. AA 7 ell, I have, as a member of the committee, had something to do 
 with trying to collect funds for the purpose of buying provisions, &c., 
 to take care of these people. 
 
 Q. Have you succeeded in collecting a considerable fund for that pur 
 pose?—A. I think I collected, myself, nearly, about—well, something 
 about seventy-odd dollars. 
 
 Q. AYhat do you know ab3ut some people of your race applying to 
 the Republican State central committee?—A. Well, all I know about 
 that is that our committee had about exhausted all of the monev we 
 were able to collect from the friends on the street; and we had learned 
 that there was some funds that had been collected, or at least some 
 parties had signified that if the money could be rightfully expended, 
 that they would donate something, or give something in that direction. 
 I believe that the Hon. J. S. Hinton, down at the Republican State 
 committee rooms, one day, had made some inquiry (as he had heard it 
 reported, I guess, on the streets, that there was some money—I do not 
 know where else he got it; aud while he was in the State Central com¬ 
 mittee rooms, I believe), he asked what was going to be done with 
 these people ; that they were there, and our people had exhausted 
 about all the means that we had on hand; and L believe that he was 
 told that the matter had been left with a man by the name of M. H. 
 McKay, I think the name is, and a man by the name of Byram. 
 
 Q. Do you know these two gentlemen ?—A. 1 had not met Byram. 
 
 Q. Do you know Air. Byram by reputation?—A. Yes; I know him 
 by reputation. 
 
 Q. AA T as he a man of some prominence?—A. M. H. AIcKay was in the 
 city council there. Byram was a man of some prominence; I think he 
 was an ex-councilman or ex-alderman ; I don’t know which. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 365 
 
 ^ Q. Did you understand that Mr. Hinton was informed that the mat¬ 
 ter was left, by the Republican State central committee, to these two 
 gentlemen ?—A. Yes ; he was simply referred to these two gentlemen; 
 lie said the matter had been left with these two gentlemen, and that 
 we would have to call upon these gentlemen ; that if we would call 
 upon them they would give us satisfaction relative to the matter. 
 
 Q. Did you call upon them, Mr. Woods ?—A. After Mr. Hinton had 
 reported this matter to the committee, and as our committee had ex¬ 
 hausted at that time about all the means they had, I thought that if 
 there was any money that had been collected for taking care of these 
 people, the best thing we could do was to try to get hold of it. So I 
 wrote a resolution in the committee that a committee of live be ap¬ 
 pointed to wait upon these gentlemen and see if there was any means 
 that had been collected or left with them to take care of these people; 
 for I thought it necessary that they should be taken care of. 
 
 Q. Was your resolution adopted ?—A. Yes; and the committee-was 
 appointed. 
 
 Q. Who was chairman of that committee, yourself ?—A. No. R. B. 
 Bagby. 
 
 Q. Were you a member of that committee ?—A. Yes, sir; I was. 
 
 Q. Did you wait on Mr. Byram or Mr. McKay ?—A. We waited on 
 Mr. McKay. Mr. By ram was notified I believe by Cyrus T. Nixon, if I 
 am not mistaken, to meet the committee at Marshal Dudley’s office, I 
 believe, for a conference, but he did not appear, neither did Mr. McKay. 
 We afterwards waited on Mr. McKay at his office in the Odd Fellows’ 
 Hall. 
 
 Q. Well, what satisfaction did you get, Mr. W 7 oods ?—A. All the sat¬ 
 isfaction we got, so far as Mr. Dudley was concerned, at his office while 
 we were there, and from Mr. McKay, was that Mr. Nixon stated to us 
 that he had been appointed by somebody, he did not state who, to go 
 through the State soliciting funds, and he had made a failure of it. 
 
 Q. That is, Nixon stated that t —A. Yes ; and that he had caused Dr. 
 S. A. Elbert to be appointed in his stead ; and if there was any funds 
 that had been collected that McKay and Byram knew of and had the 
 money—if there was any collected—that he had made a failure. Mar¬ 
 shal Dudley stated to us that all he knew about it was, he (Dr. Elbert) 
 had subscribed ten dollars, and that he supposed Dr. Elbert had 
 the money if he did not turn it over to McKay. So we protested 
 against Dr. Elbert being appointed to collect the funds as he did not 
 belong to the committee—was not a member, having been defeated for 
 corresponding secretary of the committee by Benjamin Thornton. Not 
 being a member of the committee, we thought he had no right to handle 
 any of the funds that should come into his hands, because he was rather 
 hostile to the committee, and we was satisfied in our minds that if he 
 collected any funds toward taking care of these people, we would not 
 get any of it. That was our opinion, so we protested against it. They 
 requested us to give a written statement to that effect, and we did. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. McKay present when Nixon made this statement?—A. 
 
 Not at that time. 
 
 Q. This was an interview you had with Nixon in Marshal Dudley’s 
 office, was it?—A. Yes, in his office, at which we expected to meet Mc¬ 
 Kay and By ram. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Nixon ?—A. I believe he is a prominent politician of 
 Indianapolis, and i think he was at that time a member of the legisla¬ 
 ture. I think so. 
 
 Q. He is a white man, is he ?—A. Yes, sir; he is. 
 
366 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. And a candidate now for nomination to the legislature, is he not ?— 
 A. I believe lie is. 
 
 Q. Mr. Woods, he said that he had been appointed to canvass the 
 State for funds, I believe you stated? He did not say, however, whom 
 he had been appointed by, did he ?—A. He did not; he simply said that 
 he had been appointed to go over the State and collect funds, and that 
 he had made a failure of it and that he had caused Dr. Elbert to be ap¬ 
 pointed in his stead. Or, in other words—I will give it to you in his 
 own words—that he had written out a recommendation for Dr. Elbert to 
 be appointed, and that recommendation had been signed by McKay and 
 Byram ; that if any wrong had been did in Dr. Elbert being appointed 
 to collect funds, he was responsible for it. 
 
 Q. What employment is Nixon in?—A. Well, Senator, to tell you the 
 truth, I don’t know what he is doing. He has an office there, but I 
 don’t know exactly what he is employed in. 
 
 Q. You did not know that he was employed in the United States 
 marshal’s office ?—A. I don’t know whether he was or not. 
 
 Q. Now, passing from the office, did you see McKay at all in connec 
 tion with this business?—A. We did. 
 
 Q. Where did you see him?—A. We saw him at his office. 
 
 Q. What did he say to you ?—A. Well, this written statement that we 
 made and signed at the committee. I went first in company with Mr. 
 Nixon to McKay—or Nixon said that after this written statement—that 
 would relieve him of having Dr. Elbert appointed, and he desired some 
 one of the committee to go down with him and present this written state¬ 
 ment against Dr. Elbert’s collecting any funds, to McKay; and I was 
 solicited to go down with him and present this written statement to Mc¬ 
 Kay. He said McKay could remove Dr. Elbert if he desired to do so, 
 and could simply lay the matter before McKay. So he and I laid the 
 matter before McKay. Next day the committee called on McKay to 
 know what he was going to do about it. McKay said to the committee 
 that he considered that Dr. Elbert was responsible to them for all the 
 amounts he collected: and if he collected any, the committee would get 
 it, and that we might call on him and not Dr. Efbert for the money. • 
 
 Q. Did you mention to Mr. McKay that Mr. Hinton had informed 
 you that the State central committee left the matter to him ?—A. We 
 did ; we told him that we had learned—we had been referred to him and 
 Mr. Byram by some gentleman up at the committee room of the State 
 central committee, that there was some funds collected and left in their 
 hands for that purpose; and if there was any, we would like to have it, 
 as we thought we were the proper persons to handle the funds ; to take 
 care of these people. 
 
 Q. You were seeking funds to take care of these people after they had 
 come there ; to feed and clothe them and take care of them, if you could, 
 were you not?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. McKay, Mr. Nixon, and Mr. Dudley all knew that that was 
 your object in getting the money, did they ?—A. We so stated; that 
 that was our object in getting funds; that we had exhausedall we had. 
 
 Q. Did you ever get any of it for that purpose ?—A. I believe Mr. 
 McKay furnished the president of our association, Mr. W. C. Trevau, 
 $ 10 . • 
 
 Q. Did he say that was all he had ?—A. He said it was all he had at 
 present. 
 
 Q. Did he deny having collected any ?—A. To tell you the truth, Sen. 
 ator, it seems as though he did not want our committee to use the funds 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 367 
 
 that’s the truth of the matter : and he had rather it would come through 
 Dr. S. A. Elbert’s hands and Rev. Moses Broyles’s. 
 
 Q. They are political leaders of your people there, are they not?—A. 
 Yes, sir; they are. 
 
 Q. And it looked as though the Republican State central committee 
 preferred to disburse the funds through them than through your com¬ 
 mittee, which was purely a charitable committee?—A. I do not know 
 what the Republican State central committee had instructed them to 
 do, but these gentlemen seemed to desire that. 
 
 Q. These were the gentlemen you had been referred to through Mr. 
 Hinton?—xY Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Doctor Elbert on the subject?—A. I think I 
 never had any particular conversation with him about the matter, be¬ 
 cause I did not thiuk lie was the proper man to handle the funds, and 
 I did not talk to him about it, because I had signed a written recommen¬ 
 dation against his collecting funds, and presented that to Mr. McKay, 
 and I thought that a sufficient reason, so I was not disposed to consult 
 with him about it. 
 
 Q. You did not ascertain how much Elbert had, did you ?—A. We did 
 not find out that from McKay, because he seemed as though he did not 
 care to give us any information as to how he got the money. 
 
 Q. The money had been collected and he would not give you any sat¬ 
 isfaction as to the amount Elbert had in his hands; is that it?—A. Ko, 
 sir; we never did find that out. 
 
 Q. What steps did you take in that connection, as a committee, when 
 you found that state of affairs?—A. Well, when we found that state of 
 affairs, and as we believed the means was somewhere, although we could 
 not get them, we thought that if Dr. S. A. Elbert and Rev. Moses 
 Erodes was the persons these gentlenen desired to have handle the funds 
 if any was collected—our committee thought that Rev. Moses Broiles 
 and Dr. J. A. Elbert was the men to take care of them, so when our 
 committee had a meeting next we simply resolved to do nothing more 
 unless we was furnished means to do it with, as we had exhausted all 
 we had. And we have not did anything since leaving it to these gen¬ 
 tlemen to attend to. 
 
 Q. Was there anything, Mr. Woods, connected with this matter that 
 made an impression on your mind that there were political objects in 
 view?—A. Well, after we had called upon these gentlemen—up to that 
 time—I thought there was not; but after we had called upon these gen¬ 
 tlemen, and the manner in which we was treated by them, it. kind of 
 looked to us, as we termed it, as if there was “ a dog in the well.” We 
 thought there was something somewhere, and they didn’t desire to let 
 us know anything about it, and, after pressing the matter as far as we 
 could, we dropped it. 
 
 Q. Who was on this committee with you ?—A. Mr. R. B. Bagby. 
 
 Q. He is a very respectable man, is he not?—A. He is principal of 
 the school there, number 24, I believe. 
 
 Q. Is he a colored man ?—xY Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And who else ?—A. Mr. James S. Hinton. 
 
 Q. He has been canal trustee, has he not?—A. Yes, sir; he has. 
 
 Q. Who else?—A. William F. Floyd, I believe, and Benjamin Thorn¬ 
 ton and L. E. Christy. 
 
 Q. In other words, it was a responsible committee ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Responsible for the handling and disbursement of money ?—A. 
 We thought so, sir. 
 
 Q. Yes, I think so too. You have not been able to determine why 
 
368 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 the money was not disbursed through you except on the hypothesis that 
 there seemed to be “ a dog in the well,” as you expressed it ?—A. That 
 is what we thought. 
 
 Mr. Vance. Down in our country they call it u nigger in the wood- 
 pile.” 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. You stated at the outset of your examination that you were a Re¬ 
 publican ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything—I do not know whether you do or not— 
 about the manner in which the money was raised there to bring these 
 people on from Washington, or whether they had any money to get 
 through with ?—A. I do not, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know how that money was raised ?—A. I do not know 
 how that money was raised. 
 
 Q. I mean not merely of your own knowledge, but from information ? 
 —A. No, sir; all I know is, the agent of the Baltimore and Ohio Rail¬ 
 road called upon us one night when our committee was in session, to 
 know whether a dispatch, I think, had been received for money to be 
 sent to Washington. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how much he stated that money was ?—A. My 
 impression is he stated there was a dispatch sent for some six hundred 
 dollars, I think. 
 
 Q. Mr. Woods, do you think that six hundred dollars could have been 
 raised among the colored people at that time in the course of twenty-four 
 hours, or forty-eight hours, for the purpose of buying transportation 
 from Washington City to Indianapolis for these colored emigrants?—A. 
 Well, I know that it could not. 
 
 Q. You don’t think anything about it, you know it ?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 know it. 
 
 Q. You were satisfied, then, that if six hundred dollars, or any such 
 sum, was raised for such a purpose, it had to be raised outside of the 
 colored people?—A. If any such sum was raised, it must have been 
 raised outside of our people. 
 
 Q. Do you remember that soon after the Baltimore and Ohio agent 
 spoke to you there was an arrival of some hundred and fifty to two hun¬ 
 dred of these people ?—A. I believe there was, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you informed that the money was raised—not as to how it 
 was raised, for you have said you did not know that—but were you in¬ 
 formed that the money was raised there for them ?—A. All I know 
 about that is that we referred the agent of the Baltimore and Ohio Rail¬ 
 road to Mr. R. B. Bagby, chairman of the executive committee, and what¬ 
 ever disposition they made of it I don’t know. 
 
 Q. Well, do you know whether, in point of fact, there was a sum of 
 money raised for that purpose at that time ?—A. I could not state posi¬ 
 tively whether there was or not. 
 
 Q. Well, upon information?—A. I understood that the money was 
 sent on. 
 
 Q. Yen understood that money was sent on?—A. Yes; I understood 
 that, but I don’t know whether it was or not. 
 
 Q. Well, this investigation is not governed by the close rules of a 
 court, and you can give us what you have heard. How did you come 
 to understand that, Mr. Woods?—A. I don’t know; I think I just 
 merely heard it talked of generally, rumored around, and I got hold of 
 it. A great many rumors were going around, and it may have been a 
 false one for all I know. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 369 
 
 Q. Yes ; but you think there was a general understanding, in which 
 you participated, that money had been sent on to them?—A. Just as 
 I stated before, we thought there was a “a dog in the well,” and there 
 must be some money in some place, and that is all I know about it. 
 
 Q. You pulled out of the business pretty much after that, didn’t you? 
 A. Our committee has not did anything since, and didn’t intend to, un¬ 
 less they gave us some money to do it with. 
 
 Q. Are you a man of family, Mr. Woods?—A. I am. 
 
 Q. What family have you?—A. I have only a wife, sir. 
 
 Q. You still are occupied there in the Bates House, in the barber¬ 
 shop, are you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Woods, you write sometimes for the press in behalf of your peo¬ 
 ple, do you not?—A. I do; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are a member of the Republican club of your ward, I be¬ 
 lieve?—A. Yes, sir, I am. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar, Mr. Woods, with the condition of these emigrants 
 at this time in Indianapolis ?—A. The most that I have seen of them, 
 sir, has been in connection with our committee work. In fact, I believe 
 my committee handled four hundred and thirty-eight of them. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by “handled,” Mr. Woods?—A. That is, they 
 came into our hands, and we took care of them for a time; that is, they 
 were put in the hands of our committee; we quartered them in the 
 church and we fed them for a time. 
 
 Q. Well, what proportion of them have been able to get employment ? 
 —A. All of those we had we disposed of; we got places for them here 
 and there over the State. 
 
 Q. You got places for them in different parts of the State ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You sent a good many of them away from Indianapolis, did you ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; we sent about all of them away from Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Langsdale, of Greencastle, communicate with you on the 
 subject?—A. I do not know whether we had any direct communication 
 from Mr. Langsdale or not. 
 
 Q. What proportion of these people have not been employed ?—A. I 
 do not know, sir; this Christian Aid Association, of which the Rev. 
 Moses Broiles is president, got a good many of them places around the 
 city there; I don’t know how many of them is employed. Those we 
 had we sent away. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of them unemployed?—A. Yes, sir; I think 
 there is a good many of them over there that is not employed in the kind 
 of headquarters of Moses Broiles’s old building, on the corner of Cali¬ 
 fornia and Pratt streets, I think. 
 
 Q. It was in behalf of these that the constant appeals for public 
 charity were made, was it not ?—A. I believe so, sir. I heard you read 
 a report to this committee, or a portion of it, awhile ago. 
 
 By Mr. Windom: 
 
 Q. Mr. Woods, what is Mr. Byram’s Christian name, please?—A. I do 
 not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you ascertain while you are here, and give it to me before you 
 go away?—A. No, sir; I cannot. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. McKay’s given name ?—A. I think it is M. H., 
 if 1 am not mistaken—Mr. M. H. McKay. 
 
 Q. What is Mr. Nixon’s given name?—A. Cyrus T., I think. 
 
 Q. Cyrus T. ?—A. Yes, sir; Cyrus T. Nixon. 
 
 Q. Mr. Woods, there are two societies there, among your people, tak- 
 24 EX 
 
370 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 ing care of these colored emigrants, are there not?—A. Yes, sir; there 
 are. 
 
 Q. And there was some disagreement or misunderstanding among 
 them, was there not?—A. There was just this misunderstanding about 
 it, Senator, that Dr. S. A. Elbert and Rev. Moses Broiles, together with 
 some more of our prominent colored citizens there, called a mass-meet¬ 
 ing to appoint a committee, and the committee was appointed. The Rev. 
 Moses Broiles was put up for president, and he got beaten, I believe, by 
 Elder Trevan. Dr. S. A. Elbert was put up for corresponding secretary, 
 and he got defeated by Benjamin Thornton, and that seems to have dis¬ 
 pleased them in some way. 
 
 Q. It resulted in ill-feeling between the two organizations, did it ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; they went off and called a meeting of the five Baptist 
 churches in the Second Baptist Church, and formed what we called a 
 “Christian Aid Association,” with the Rev. Moses Broiles as president. 
 
 Q. And that still further promoted the ill-feeling or rivalry between 
 the two committees, did it, so that they did not work together harmoni¬ 
 ously ?—A. Yes, sir; it did. 
 
 Q. 1 am not trying to get at the merits of the case; I am only trying 
 to find out the facts.—A. I am only stating to you what I know. 
 
 Q. Yes, I know. Now, when you went to Mr. McKay about the 
 money, he did not seem to favor your committee, did he?—A. He did 
 not seem to favor our committee, because it appeared to us, as we found 
 out on investigation, rather, that they were desirous of having Dr. S. A. 
 Elbert and Rev. Moses Broiles handle whatever funds should be col¬ 
 lected. 
 
 Q. That is, they preferred that their committee should handle the 
 funds?—A. Yes, sir; and we thought that is the reason why the Rev. 
 Moses Broiles and Dr. S. A. Elbert formed this other organization, be¬ 
 cause they didn’t happen to be elected as officers of the citizens’ com¬ 
 mittee. 
 
 Q. Very likely; but the impression you had was that they preferred 
 their committee to handle the funds?—A. Yes, sir; that is the impres¬ 
 sion we got, that they desired these gentlemen to handle the funds, if 
 there was any funds. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of any funds being raised, except for the purpose 
 of relief and charity ?—A. Only as I stated a while ago, I heard a rumor 
 about six hundred dollars; that is all I know. 
 
 Q. But you didn’t know?—A. I didn’t know positively that it was; 
 no, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn’t know whether $G00 was sent out at all?—A. I didn’t 
 know positively, at all; no, sir. 
 
 Q. You have given us all the tacts you have that made you give any 
 credence to the rumor, have you ?—A. That is all I have in that respect. 
 Mr. Bagby may possibly give you some information. The matter was 
 referred to him, to Mr. R. B. Bagby. 
 
 Q. Can you give me your best opinion about how many of the whole 
 number of these people that arrived there—of those able to work—have 
 failed to find employment—abled-bodied men, L mean ?—A. No, sir; all 
 that are there unemployed are in the hands of the Christian Aid Society, 
 and I don’t know anything about whether they are working or not. 
 
 Q. You do not know, then, how many have not succeeded in finding 
 employment ?—A. I don’t know ; we took care of ours. 
 
 Q. You found employment for how many ?—A. Our secretary’s books 
 show that we handled four hundred and thirty eight, I believe. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 371 
 
 Q. These were all disposed of, and found employment ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The committee here took a recess of ten minutes. 
 
 After recess, 2 o’clock p. m. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MINGO SIMMONS, COLORED. 
 
 Mingo Simmons, colored, was sworn and examined, as follows : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you live when you are at home?—Answer. In 
 North Carolina, Greene County. 
 
 Q. What is the county seat of Greene County ?—A. Snow Hill. 
 
 Q. How far do you live from there?—A. Ten miles, it is called, from 
 my house. 
 
 Q. Have you been out to Indiana recently?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you go ?—A. I went by here ou the first train that went 
 there. 
 
 Q. How many were on that train?—A. We took fifty-three, I think. 
 
 Q. Were they all men ?—A. There were three women in the crowd. 
 
 Q. Have you a wife and children ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are they?—A. In North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Did you have them out there with you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are you goiug now ?—-A. I am on my way back home, when 
 I leave here. 
 
 Q. Are you going home to stay?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn’t you like it out there ?—A. No, sir ; not so well. 
 
 Q. You think you can do better at home?—A. Yes, sir; at present 
 prices I can. 
 
 Q. Could you get no work at Indianapolis?—A. I had a little to do 
 at Greencastle. 
 
 Q. How much?—A. When I first went down there I laid around 
 three or four weeks before I got any work to do. Then I went to work 
 for a gentleman named Peck. 
 
 Q. Where did he live?—A. He lives across from the south depot. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any work to do?—A. He gave me some work to 
 do ; a little work. 
 
 Q. How much did he pay you ?—A. He gave me 50 cents a day, and 
 I boarded myself out of that. 
 
 Q. He is a pretty prominent man there, is he not ?—A. He is said to 
 be, sir. They were all strangers to me. 
 
 Q. Mr. Peck has a large farm out there, has he not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He lives pretty well, there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do for him ?—A. I gathered corn. 
 
 Q. Did you do a full day’s work?—A. Yes, sir; unless there came 
 rain, and broke it up. 
 
 Q. Where did you board ?—A. There at his house. 
 
 Q. Did he charge you—did he take it out of your pay?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much did your board cost you ?—A. I do not know, sir. I 
 did not stay there long. 
 
 Q. How long ?—A. Three weeks. 
 
 Q. How much money did you get from him ?—A. I did not get much. 
 
 Q. Well, can you tell us about how much?—A. I do not know, sir; 
 it was all gone before 1 got it. I had to keep eating, you know, or die. 
 
 Q. When you settled up at the end of three weeks, how much did you 
 get ?—A. Not a cent. 
 
372 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Was it all charged against you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you got through with your three weeks 7 work, you found 
 you were just even and had nothing ahead.—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not have to pay anything to him to get to leave there, did 
 you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 b Q. What had you got from him besides your board that it brought 
 you out just even ?—A. Nothing at all, sir; I worked there three weeks, 
 and the weather is terribly bad out there at this time of the year; and 
 including bad days the board taken out, and me still eating, there was 
 nothing for me left. You know I had to keep on eating, rain or shine. 
 
 Q. When he charged you for the rainy days that you did not work, 
 you just came out even ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You could have done as well as that in North Carolina, could you 
 not?—A. I could have done better, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you go then ?—A. I went to a gentleman named Elsbury 
 O’Hara. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that he was very fond of your race of people ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Peck was a Republican, was he not ?—A. I understood so. 
 
 Q. Mr. O’Hara was?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have any politics yourself ?—A. Not so much, sir. 
 
 Q. You voted down in North Carolina, did you not?—A. Yes, sir; 
 just as much as I pleased. 
 
 Q. How did you vote ?—A. I always votes the Republican ticket. 
 
 Q. How will you vote when you get back there—the same way ?—A. 
 I expect to, when I get back, vote the same ticket. 
 
 Q. Nobody ever bothered you about it down there, did they ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you left Mr. Peck’s and went to Mr. O’Hara’s.—A. Yes, 
 sir; I hired with him, and staid there, I reckon, a month and a half; 
 and I cleared ten dollars from him. 
 
 Q. In what length of time?—A. I reckon I staid there a little over a 
 month and a half. 
 
 Q. On what terms did you work, by the day or by the month ? How 
 much was he to give you ?—A. Ten dollars. 
 
 Q. And he to board you ?—A. Yes, sir; he boarded me out of that, 
 at that time. I cleared $10 in a month and a half and more. 
 
 Q. How is it that you did not clear $15?—A. I got some clothing 
 from him, and that cut it down to $10. When I had gone there with 
 him, I asked him what he was going to give me, and he said $10 a 
 month and house rent, and board myself out of that- 
 
 Q. You staid with him six or seven weeks?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think you could have done that well in North Carolina ?— 
 A. I could have done better in North Carolina. I can get $10 a month 
 there, and half of Saturday afternoon, and as much ground as 1 want, 
 and a horse to plow it with, and my board. 
 
 Q. You were never offered anything like that out there, were you ?— 
 A. No, sir ; nothing like that at all. 
 
 Q. Are the rest of your people, who have gone out there, in Putman 
 County, getting on better than you did ?—A. You mean those emi¬ 
 grants ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. No, sir. Some of them are getting only $5 a mouth. 
 
 Q. Men folks?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know any of the men who are working for Mr. Stevenson ? 
 —A. No, sir; they came out from another party. 
 
 Q. Do you know what he is paying them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 373 
 
 Q. Do all those who are out there get work ?—A. No, sir 5 not all of 
 them get work. 
 
 Q. What are those doing who have not got any work ?—A. They are 
 just walking around there. 
 
 Q. Living on what people give them?—A. Yes, sir; going from place 
 to place. 
 
 Q. Do the women get places out there?—A. No, sir; I saw some of 
 them on Sunday, and talked with them about that. 
 
 Q. Why don’t they get places ?—A. They say they do not suit out 
 there. 
 
 Q. Do they get as much as they get in North Carolina when they are 
 employed ?—A I have heard of some of them getting $4, but I hain’t 
 seen that; women in North Carolina gets $5, and some of them $4, ac¬ 
 cording to what sort of hands she is. 
 
 Q. How much did you ever get in North Carolina ? : —A. I have got 
 $ 12 , but I put it down to $10 all round ; they call me an extra hand 
 down there. 
 
 Q. How old are you ?—A. I am thirty-two this coming July. 
 
 Q. How much of a family have you ?-—A. I have six children and a 
 wife. 
 
 Q. Did you live on a piece of rented ground in North Carolina?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you own it ?—A. No, sir; I lived with a gentleman, Mr. 
 Ki chard Hardy. 
 
 Q. And he gives you a piece of land to cultivate ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you farm some for yourself?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have to pay rent?—A. I pay half the cotton, and a third 
 of the corn and fodder. 
 
 Q. How much can one man make at that rate?—A. Well, it is owing 
 to the ground. 
 
 Q. You have fair, average ground, have you not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, take yourself, now; how much do you make on it?—A. 
 About eight bags. 
 
 Q. You do not mean bales of cotton ?—A. Yes, sir; I call them 
 “bags.” 
 
 Q. How much laud would it take to raise eight bales of cotton ?—A. 
 We generally put in down there about twelve acres of ground in cotton. 
 
 Q. Can you get eight bales or bags of cotton off from that ?—A. Yes, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How much is a bag of cotton worth, delivered at Snow Hill ?-—A. 
 Well, sir, it is owing to what the price is. 
 
 Q. Well, this year for instance?—A. Well, sir, this year for a five 
 hundred pound bag it is worth 10 cents a pound. 
 
 Q. That would be $50 a bale ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So, if you get four bales out of eight, you would have $200 ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you would have a patch of ground to cultivate, and a place 
 for your cow and calf, and all that ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say one-third of the corn you raise goes to pay the rent ?—A. 
 Two-thirds of it goes to pay the rent, and one-third comes to me. 
 
 Q. Have you a pretty good house ?—A. Yes, sir, I had, because it 
 has not been so very long since it was built. 
 
 Q. Did you live comfortably ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you get your fire-wood free ?—A. Yes, sir ; I would go down 
 in the marsh and get as much as I wanted—and light wood, too. 
 
 Q. What did you do last year ?—A.- Last year I hired out for the sea- 
 
374 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 soli to a gentleman ; be bad some green marsb down there to clear up, 
 and I hired with him. 
 
 Q. What do you call a “season” in North Carolina ?—A. From the 
 time we plow until we gather in. 
 
 Q. What did you do for that gentleman last season ?—A. I com¬ 
 menced last winter cutting off timber; he was to give me five acres to 
 clean up, and all I got off from there I was to have. 
 
 Q. For cleaning it up you were to have what you could raise on it for 
 oue season ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was this last year?—A. Yes, sir; this last year past. 
 
 Q. And then you made a crop on the new ground ?—A. Yes, sir; 
 part of it. 
 
 Q. Did you raise cotton ?—A. No, sir; I raised corn. We do not put 
 cotton in the marsh. 
 
 Q. Nobody had abused you then, in North Carolina, to make you un¬ 
 comfortable ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The white people treated you kindly ?—A. Y"es, sir ; nobody ever 
 bothered me at all. 
 
 Q. Did you belong to anybody before the war?—A. Yes, sir; I be¬ 
 longed to a gentleman in Newbern, named Smallwood ; and then I came 
 to the place where I live now. 
 
 Q. You never had any trouble in court, did you ?—A. No, sir; never 
 at all, at no time, except that I have been on the jury. 
 
 Q. Can you read and write?—A. No, sir; I cannot read and write. 
 
 Q. Now, you said you had no trouble there of any kind; how did you 
 come to go to Indiana ?—A. Well, sir, Samuel Perry was knocking around 
 there among some of the boys, and he said there was a circular telling 
 us to go out to Kansas; and he said they would give us land and plenty 
 to do; that the government wanted us to go out there: and then he 
 began to hold meetings; some of them said they were political, and 
 some of them said that if the government was not in it they were not 
 going. Some of the Republicans and Democrats of the negroes both 
 said so; but they kept up the meetings, and at last we started Perry 
 out to Kansas, to that big place down there that he talked about, to pick 
 out somewhere for us to go. He came on here; he took up a collection, 
 I do not know of how much money, to pay his way; when he was to 
 come back he was to take us on. When he was here in this city he 
 sent for more money, and we took up another collection, and sent it to 
 him; but whether he got it or no I do not know. He wrote again to 
 know whether we would like to go there, to Kansas. He said that In¬ 
 diana was a better place; that in Kansas we would starve out; and he 
 said how would we like it in Indiana. He sent circulars down there 
 and all that, and we said all right, to go on. W r e thought it was a long 
 way to go to Kansas. He came back so soon that I did not think he 
 had been down there anyway. He came back, and said that he had 
 seen Mr. Laugsdale and Mr. Olay, and they had fixed up a circular. He 
 said, “Now, boys, all is fixed for you, and they want you out there;” 
 and he said, “You must go there.” He said that we could not go any 
 farther, nor go to Kansas; he said that we would go to Indiana; that 
 they had furnished the money ; but he said, “ They won’t furnish the 
 money for you to go to Kansas, but you must stop there in Indiana.” 
 I said all right; I would do that. And he said that the Preacher Clay 
 said that the women could get $10 a week out there for pealing toma¬ 
 toes and for waiting girls. That was pretty high, you know, and it 
 took with the negroes powerful. I asked what would become of the 
 old women in North Carolina. He said we could leave them or take 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 375 
 
 them. He said that funds were all ready made up there for us; so we 
 concluded to go out. I thought I would bring my wife with me, and he 
 appointed a time for us to come. That day, though, I thought it was 
 best to leave my wife and look at the thing for myself. He held another 
 meeting, and he said, “Now, men, the party don’t want any women out 
 there.” He said, “The party has been so badly fooled that we don’t 
 want them out there.” He said, “ They want to see our faces first, and 
 know that its all right;” and that is the reason why only three women 
 went out in that first crowd. 
 
 Q. How much did he tell you the men got out there ?—A. He said we 
 would get $15 month now, and more in the spring. 
 
 Q. When spring opened, how much were you to get?—A. From 
 eighteen to twenty or twenty-live dollars a month. 
 
 Q. Do you know what that circular sa.d ? Was it read over to you ?— 
 A. He was reading something, but I do not know whether the circular 
 said it or no. 
 
 Q. What do you think of Perry?—A. Sam Perry? I think he is a 
 bad fellow. 
 
 Q. You think he is a bad fellow, do you?—A. Yes, sir; I am down 
 on people going around among the ignorant people to fool them. 
 
 Q. He fooled you, did he?—A.. Yes, sir; he fooled the whole bustin’ 
 bilin’ of us. 
 
 Q. What did you find about the schools out there? That was one of 
 his big points, was it not ?—A. Yes, sir ; but about the schools, I found 
 that true. 
 
 Q. What did he say about the climate ?—A. He said it was just one 
 degree colder there than in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What do you think about that ?—A. 1 think he did not get that 
 down right. But it is not the cold out there that I am standing back 
 home on. It is my labor and forage I am after. I am frost-bitten now ; 
 I never was before in my life; and if I live I am never going to be no 
 more. 
 
 Q. What were you doing when you got frost-bitten ?—A. I was shuck¬ 
 ing corn; it was wet and muddy and miry out there. 
 
 Q. Do you think you want to be frost-bitten any more?—A. No, sir; 
 not by him nor Indiana either. But I sort of smelt a rat when I first 
 came to this here depot, down here. I said to him, “ Why ain’t you 
 doing what you were going to do?” He said he hadn’t seen the lead¬ 
 ing parties yet. I said I did not know we were going to stay here more 
 than a day, and now it was two days; and he said it was no difference 
 to me, and for me to keep still. I said, “ What did you come to this 
 place for?” We came here at your beck and call, and you ought to 
 come to us now and help us out. We had to go to the other depot down 
 here; and he began to wean off from us clean till we got to Green Cas¬ 
 tle ; I went to Indianapolis, but to Greencastle I would not go. 
 
 Q. At what time did you get there ?—A. I got there over night. 
 
 Q. Did you pay your own way out there ?—A. I paid $19; that is 
 what I paid to the emigrant society and the exodus. 
 
 Q. Did you pay Perry anything ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you come to pay it?—A. 1 paid my fareage; and Perry 
 said the head authorities said for all that had had money to pay out for 
 the rest up here to Washington City, and from here the road was already 
 opened for us. There were several standing around there who wanted 
 to come, and who had no money, and I pulled out my money and paid 
 it for them on Sam Perry’s say-so. I paid that money to get here, and 
 then I paid another dollar right here at the depot. 
 
376 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. What did you pay that for ?—A. To help the others. Peter Will¬ 
 iams had his roll-book going along raising a collection, and I gave him 
 a dollar. 
 
 Q. Where is Peter Williams now ?—A. He is in a coal mine down 
 below Greencastle. 
 
 Q. Do you know T. C. Williams?—A. No; I do not know him. 
 
 Q. Do you know Scott ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Taylor Evans ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you got any money to go home on ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you get the money to come here with ?—A. I sent 
 home for it. 
 
 Q. To whom ?—A. To old Dr. Howard’s son. 
 
 Q. Is he a friend of yours ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he send you the money ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you got anything to go home on from here ?—A. No, sir pit 
 cost me $27 from Greencastle here. 
 
 Q. Not from Greencastle here ?—A. I think that is what I paid, sir. 
 
 Q. They robbed you, then. Where did you buy your ticket ?—A. I 
 bought it at Indianapolis ; I paid my fare on the train from Greencastle 
 to Indianapolis, and bought a ticket from Indianapolis here ; I think 
 the man I got it from said he paid $16 for it; and then $1 on top of 
 that to Greencastle was $17.55. 
 
 Q. And that is what you paid ?—A. Yes, sir; that is it. 
 
 Q. How much money did Mr. Howard send you ?—A. Twenty dol¬ 
 lars. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Did you write any letters back, or have any written, to your col¬ 
 ored friends at home telling them not to come there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who wrote them for yon ?—A. One colored fellow, who went there 
 with me; he wrote them. 
 
 Q. You cannot write yourself?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were those letters received there?—A. Yes, sir; right smart of 
 them. I got letters back from them. 
 
 Q. Did anybody deceive you about those letters ?—A. I got one man 
 to write a letter for me, I do not know who he was, and he did not write 
 it exactly as I wanted him to, and I threw it into the tire, and burnt it 
 up. 
 
 Q. What did you tell him to write?—A. I said, this is not the place 
 for colored folks; that they said it would be better in the spring, but 
 there was no capital or labor for them ; that it was very cold, and they 
 better not come out there. 
 
 Q. How did he write it ?—A. He wrote to them to come right on ; 
 that it was all right, and that I was as fat as a bear, and weighed over 
 200 pounds. 
 
 Q. How did you come to find out that he had deceived you ?—A. I 
 didn’t seal up the letter; he wanted to send it right away ; but I kept 
 it for this man near me to read ; I bu’sted it open, and showed it to him, 
 and told him what I had told the man to put into it; he saw it, and 
 read what that white man had said, and it didn’t work right. 
 
 Q. Who was that man ?—A. He was a white man at Greencastle; I 
 don’t know his name; I don’t know many folks out there. 
 
 Q. Did anybody say anything to you before you went there, or after 
 you got there, about how you were to vote?—A. Well, sir, they said, 
 “I reckon you are all voters?” and I said, “yes;” but I don’t know 
 whether the man that said that was a Republican or a Democrat. Di- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 377 
 
 rectlv I caught up with another fellow, and he said, “All you folks that 
 are coming ought to come before the 1st of May ; after that we don’t 
 want no more of you.” I said to the boys, “ Look here, boys, this is 
 poor encouragement; our folks in North Carolina can’t get out here 
 before that time.” 
 
 Q. Do you know what he wanted them to be there by the 1st of May 
 for ?—A. No, sir ; I don’t know what his politics was ; but he said after 
 the 1st of May he didn’t want another one of us darkies to move in 
 there. 
 
 Q. Where was he when he said that to you ?—A. It was at the depot 
 down at Greencastle. 
 
 Q. Did he say that to anybody else ?—A. There were four or five 
 others standing about there. 
 
 Q. You think you can do better in North Carolina than you did out 
 there ?—A. At present prices I can. 
 
 Q. You have an opportunity to educate your children in North Caro¬ 
 lina, haven’t you ?—A. Yes, sir; we have schools there. 
 
 Q. Do you have the same chance as the white people?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. How did you happen to be summoned before this committee?—A. 
 I do not know, sir. 
 
 Q. Who first spoke to you about it ?—A. Do you mean before the 
 committee? I don’t know who was the first man who spoke to me 
 about it. 
 
 Q. Where were you when you were spoken to?—A. I was in Green¬ 
 castle ; I was talking about coming, and they wanted me to stop here 
 when I came through. 
 
 Q. Who did?—A. Some persons down there. 
 
 Q. Did Sheriff Lewman want you to stop here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted you to testify ?—A No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what to say ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted you to do?—A. No, sir. He said 
 that they might want me before this committee. 
 
 Q. Do you know Sheriff Lewman ?—A. I never saw him* but three 
 times, and but twice to know him. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Allen, his deputy?—A. No, sir; I do not know 
 him. 
 
 Q. When did you get the money to come here on ?—A. I got it last 
 Saturday; it came Thursday, but I was out in the country when it 
 came. 
 
 Q. AVho handed you the money ?—A. Sheriff'Lewman got it for me ;. 
 I saw by the first letter where they were going to send it. 
 
 Q. Did Sheriff Lewman pass himself off on you as a Republican ?—A. 
 No, sir; he said he was a full-blooded Democrat. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of his passing hiinselfoff as a Republican on others ? 
 —A. I heard of it, but I do not know it. I saw him at Greencastle, 
 and then I came up to Indianapolis and saw him. 
 
 Q. It was after you was here that he gave you that money ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I never got it, however, until Monday; it was on Thursday 
 before last, and I did not come to town until Saturday. 
 
 Q. You had talked with him about it before ?—A. I said I wanted to 
 go home; he was asking me how I liked the country, and I told him, 
 and 1 said if I had mouey I wanted to go home. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything of the Democrats not hiring your people 
 out there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
378 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of some houses that were burnt out there ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I heard of one that a tree was sawed down on it. 
 
 Q. Was that because they were going to let colored people live in it ? 
 —A. That is what I heard. 
 
 Q. You thought then, that if you were getting into a place where 
 there were such Democrats as that, it wasno better than it wasathome?— 
 A. No, sir; for I do not know who was doing that. I know the poor classes 
 out there are Republicans, and they do not want colored people in there; 
 they say they take away their labor, and cut down their wages, and 
 they are against it. 
 
 Q. You think they are opposed to your coining there?—A. Yes, sir; 
 I know that they are. There is one party among the colored folks out 
 there that do not want us to come and one party that does. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. You were asked who first told you that you must come before 
 this committee ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot remember ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you talked with anybody about what you were going to 
 swear to here?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that man over there (indicating Mr. O. S. B. Wall) ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any conversation with him upon that subject?—A. 
 He said something to me about it, and told me who he was; but I did 
 not pay much attention to it. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. Did you not complain pretty bitterly, while you were passing 
 through here, about your treatment in North Carolina?—A. No, sir; I 
 never said anything about it; the other folks were talking, and I was 
 standing by and listening; I said that, if the prices were such as the 
 circular said, it was better than the prices we were getting in North 
 Carolina. 
 
 Q. I mean down here at the depot; were you not complaining very 
 bitterly down there about the Democrats in North Carolina ?—A. No, 
 sir; I nev<?r said anything, except as to present prices in Indiana. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You thought if you could get better wages you would go?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You believed the circular and what Sam. Perry said ?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you are going back home?—A. Yes, sir; I am going back 
 home. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. And going to stay there ?—A. Yes, sir; if I ever get there. 
 
 The committee then adjourned to 10.30 a. m. Monday. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 379 
 
 SIXTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Monday, February 16, 1880. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment, and proceeded with the 
 taking of testimony. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF GREEN RUFFIN. 
 
 Green Ruffin (colored) was sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State where you live when at home ?—Answer.- I live in 
 Wilson County, North Carolina. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you left home?—A. Its a bout two mouths 
 now, as near as I can get at it. 
 
 Q. Where have you been ?—A. To Indianapolis. 
 
 Q How did you come to go there?—A. Well, sir, there came news 
 about there in the settlement, that if we would all agree to go out to 
 the Western States, to Indianapolis, we could live considerably better 
 out there. Well, it get my head deranged, so I had no sense to make 
 any bargains to work at home, and I said I would go, aud I would 
 carry my folks; but I didn’t, and I put off and goes myself. 
 
 Q. Have you a family ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many in the family ?—A. 1 have a wife and three children. 
 
 Q. Did you go with the first party that went?—A. No, sir; I went 
 with the second party. 
 
 Q. Did you pay your own way ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much it cost you to get there ?—A. I think it 
 was $15.65. 
 
 Q. Well, when you got there, what did you do ?—A. Well, sir, I 
 done nothing for about two or three weeks. 
 
 Q. Did you get any work at all?—A. Sometimes I could get some— 
 just a little more than enough to board me and pay rent. I tried every 
 day to get work, except on Sunday. 
 
 Q. During the two months that you were there how much work did 
 you do ?—A. I can’t tell. 
 
 Q. Did you work half the time ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you work one day in three?—A. Yes, sir ; I worked one week 
 in about three weeks. Maybe I would get a week’s work for a whole 
 week at a time. 
 
 Q. How much did you get?—A. I got a dollar a day and boarded 
 myself, and furnished my own tools. 
 
 Q. What sort of work did you do ?—A. I was putting in sewers 
 about the city. 
 
 Q, Did you have to furnish your own shovel?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 they furnished the picks. 
 
 Q. And you got a dollar and boarded yourself?—A. l^es, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you find much demand there for work ?—A. There was 
 mighty few people there were looking for workmen. 
 
 Q. Were there a few or many who were looking for work ?—A. There 
 were a great many of them looking for work, for there are plenty of 
 people there as bad off as we were. 
 
 Q. How much wages were you to get out there ?—A. Fifteen dollars 
 a month on a farm, and house to live in, firewood furnished, and a 
 cow and calf to milk extra for each family. 
 
 Q. Did you find any truth in such statements?—A. None at all, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you on your way back to North Carolina ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
380 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Do you expect to stay there?—A. I’m aiming to get back home 
 and die there. 
 
 Q. You are going to stay when you get there?—A. I am going 
 to stay right at home and advise all the rest to stay. 
 
 Q. What kind of advice are you going to give them ?—A. I am going 
 to tell them, u You have got a home, and you stay there”; for its an 
 abomination to go where you have got none. 
 
 Q. You speak in the church at home sometimes, don’t you ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; sometimes in the prayer meetings and round about. 
 
 Q. Do you expect to speak to them about this thing ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 if I live, I expect to tell them about these things. 
 
 Q. You think it is a great outrage on your race?—A. Yes, sir; it is a 
 regular abomination. 
 
 Q. You belonged to Mr. Ruffin, who was once in Congress, did you 
 not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How have you been treated since the war down there?—A. As 
 good as I want to be. Nobody has ever bothered me, and when I worked 
 for them they paid me. 
 
 Q. Did you vote down there ?—A. Yes, sir ; at every election. I have 
 never missed any one that I know of. 
 
 Q. What ticket did you vote ?—A. The Republican ticket. 
 
 Q. Did anybody ever keep you from voting it?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go to court during court week?—A. Yes, sir; I go to see 
 how court goes on and the cases there. 
 
 Q. Did you live there on the old plantation ?—A. Yes, sir ; I have a 
 piece of ground there yet. 
 
 Q. Do you rent it ?—A. Yes, sir ; I rent from a landholder. 
 
 Q. What sort of terms do you get ?—A. Weil, sir, if you tend the lands 
 and they furnish the teams and all the utensils and seed, and I do the 
 labor and board myself, I get a half. 
 
 Q. Do you make a living for yourself and family in that way ?—-A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you heard of those big wages, you thought you could do bet¬ 
 ter out there than at home ?—A. Yes, sir ; its a man’s duty to do better 
 if he can, but if you don’t like it, why then don’t take up with it. 
 
 Q.’ You don’t like it, and you are going back ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many of your people out there would go back from Indiana 
 if they could ?—A. I know of two families, and I think they have some¬ 
 thing of the rise of eight or ten children, who asked me to do something 
 to get them back, and I said I would do my best. 
 
 Q. And you are going to try to get them back ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you get back?—A. I had worked and got seven dollars 
 that I saved; and the man that I was with wrote for money, and they 
 sent him $35, and he lent me seven, and with the seven I had it brought 
 me here ; and when I got here I had nothing to eat, but I was this nigh 
 home. 
 
 Q. Did you tell the white people out there you were going home ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I declared I wouldn’t live in their State. 
 
 Q. Did any of them advise you to stay?—A. Yes, sir ; they said they 
 did not blame you immigrants for wanting to go home, but said, you 
 try and stay until after the Presidential election, and then we think it 
 is best for you to go home; and I said all right, and I went on my way 
 and come here. 
 
 Q. Do you know the men who said that to you ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You have been raised in North Carolina, I believe. Now tell us 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 381 
 
 how you found the weather out there in Indiana for your people ?—A. 
 It was too cold, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you notice a good many people among your emigrants who 
 were sick 0 ?—A. Yes, sir ; some two or three died in the time. There 
 were little children who were carried to the graveyard and some old 
 ones. 
 
 Q. Do you know this man Perry—Sam. Perry ?—A. I know him if I 
 see him, but I wasn’t acquainted with him. 
 
 Q. Did he make speeches down there in your country about this emi¬ 
 gration matter?—A. No, sir; I don’t know of anybody making any 
 speeches in Wilson, but when I got to town I found this thing was ail 
 through there. I caught hold of it and it worried me so that I got 
 away. 
 
 Senator Blair. I want you to tell us how many people advised you 
 to stay in Indiana until after the election?—A. I didn’t take any notice 
 how many—no more than I know this was spoke to me. 
 
 Q. How many times ?—A. Twice. 
 
 Q. Only twice?—A. Only twice to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Were they there in Indianapolis?—A. Yes, sir; right in the city. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge of the persons who said that to you ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you kept quiet about it?—A. I said all right and walked 
 right on. 
 
 Q. How many white people did you talk with while you were there? 
 —A. A great many. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with them probably a thousand times?—A. Yes, sir, 
 more or less. 
 
 Q. And twice only somebody said for you to hold on until after the 
 election ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You can’t give the names of those persons ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don’t know their politics ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They knew you were dissatisfied out there ?—A. Yes, sir; they 
 could see that. 
 
 Q. You don’t know but what they were Democrats who wanted you 
 to stay there and vote the Democratic ticket?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. These Democrats are pretty sharp, and up to a great many tricks, 
 ain’t they ?—A. Yes, sir ; I reckon so. 
 
 Q. How much money did you have when you started to Indiana?—A. 
 $45. 
 
 Q. How much did you pay to get there?—A. $15.65. 
 
 Q. And it cost you something to live on the way?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much ?—A. No, sir; I loaned out $8 to a colored 
 man who was going on. 
 
 Q. Then it must have cost you some $28 ?—A. I never counted it up. 
 
 Q. When you got ready to go back, when did you start from Indiana ? 
 — A. Thursday morning at five o’clock. 
 
 Q. This last week ?—±±. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you arrive here ?—A. Friday night, at seven o’clock. 
 
 Q. How did you happen to be here this morning?—A. Well, sir, Mr. 
 Barnes requested of me to stay. 
 
 The Chairman. I subpoenaed him, Mr. Blair. 
 
 The Witness. Mr. Barnes requested of me to stay, and so I staid. 
 
 Senator Blair. Did anybody else request you to stay ?—A. I don’t 
 know if Mr. Vance didn’t say he would like for me to tarry. 
 
 Q. How did anybody know you had anything to tell about this emigra¬ 
 tion ?—A. They spoke to me in the depot, and I said I was going home 
 
382 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 from Indianapolis ; and they asked me how I liked it, and I said I didn’t 
 like it all. I said to them “ Do you know of a man here by the name 
 of Mr. Barnes ?” They said “ Yes.” 
 
 Q. How did you come to know him ?—A. Because I was raised with 
 him right there in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You sa 5 7 you got work only a third of the time you were out there ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you had been at home, how much would you have gotten?—A. 
 I would have worked every day if the weather was suitable. 
 
 Q. You could work all the time there?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there any idle people down there?—A. Yes, sir; if they make 
 themselves idle—that is all there is about it. 
 
 Q. What is the demand for labor? Is it so that the whole colored 
 people there can work?—A. Yes, sir; if they want. 
 
 Q. From January to January?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you work out yourself?—A. I farm, sir. 
 
 Q, You rent land, do you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You mean, then, that you can work on the piece of land that you 
 hire ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You don’t mean that your people generally can have labor by the 
 day, every single day in the year ?—A. They don’t do much of that kind 
 of hiring down there with us. 
 
 Q. You mean, then, they can work on their land or land that they hire ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That there are a good many days that you don’t have to work ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. There are a good many days when you won’t have to work 
 if you are up with your business. 
 
 Q. And it is in that way that you mean that you have work every day 
 in the year ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A man can do that in Indiana, can’t he ?—A. I didn’t inquire about 
 that. 
 
 Q. When you got there you didn’t have any such work as that to do ? 
 —A. No, sir; I didn’t. 
 
 Q. But you got a chance to dig sewers in Indianapolis ?—A. Y r es, sir; 
 I struck it for awhile. 
 
 Q. That is not good work for farmers to do, is it?—A. No, sir; but 
 they tell me they don’t have any use for farmers much until about 
 March. I went round for about ten miles from the city all round. 
 Some of them said they would take me in March, but I said I couldn’t 
 be there in March. They asked me where'I was going to be. I said I 
 reckon I would be dead if I staid there, for I must have something to 
 eat between this and March. 
 
 Q. Yet you say you accumulated $7 ?—A. Yes, sir; but that’s noth¬ 
 ing to what I would get at home. 
 
 Q. You don’t think you had the chance out there that you have at 
 home ?—A. Not the beginning of the chances. 
 
 Q. Isn’t it a fact that a good many colored people have got chances to 
 work, and have scattered out among the farmers and are doing well ?— 
 A. Well, sir, some of them have, and if they don’t like it they say they 
 do. 
 
 Q. If they don’t like it they say they do ?—A. Yes, sir; I don’t see 
 how they liked it though, when they say they can’t get work and are 
 most tit to starve. 
 
 Q. You think they don’t tell it, then, as it is?—A. No, sir; I don’t 
 think so, because I could see their condition myself. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 383 
 
 Q. At the same time they seem to like it better than North Carolina? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you saw many men who have families, and who want to get 
 back home?—A. Yes, sir; they told me so. 
 
 Q. And these are the only ones you know who want to get back ?—A. 
 They are the only ones who told me so. 
 
 Q. You are a preacher, and a sociable sort of a man, and you go round 
 among them a great deal at Indianapolis?—A. I didn’t have anything 
 to say of the Scriptures among them. 
 
 Q. You saw them and talked with them, though ?—A. Mighty little ; 
 I talked mighty little myself. 
 
 Q. But you saw most of them and talked with them ?—A. I couldn’t 
 say that and tell the truth. 
 
 Q. But you saw a good deal of them ?—A. Yes, sir; I saw a good deal 
 of them. 
 
 Q. And two of them said they wanted to get back ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you seem to have a good deal of feeling in this matter ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; I have. 
 
 Q. And you want to get back home and die there ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you don’t want to die right away, do you ?—A. I hope not, 
 but I am going to tell them not to go out there to Indiana ; I ain’t going 
 myself no more; but I shall not pester them if they want to go and find 
 out for themselves. 
 
 Q. You think they have a right to go if they want to ?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. They have the same right to go to Indiana as a white man ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with the white people out there much as to whether 
 they thought the colored people ought to go there ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see any politicians out there, and talk politics with them? 
 —A. I don’t talk politics with anybody if I can help it. 
 
 Q. Why not ?—A. I don’t believe in taking up too much time with that 
 sort of stuff, and if I can get labor and get my money for it, I rather for 
 that. 
 
 Q. But the question is, did you talk any politics out there?—A. Not 
 unless somebody attacked me about it. 
 
 Q. Did anybody attack you with it?—A. I told you that gentleman 
 did, who asked me to stay until after the day of election. 
 
 Q. Were there any others who talked the merits of the political ques¬ 
 tion with you ; argued with you about it ?—A. Not that I can remem¬ 
 ber. 
 
 Q. Those two Republicans or Democrats told you to stay until after 
 the election ?—A. I didn’t know what their politics were. 
 
 Q. Didn’t they tell you you would have an easy time when it came 
 spring ?—A. Some did and some did not; so me of them said it would be 
 the same thing all the year. 
 
 Q. Some of them said it was better for you to go out ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You don’t know whether they were Republicans or Democrats ?— 
 A. I am certain there were two of them who were Republicans; they 
 were the same two who sent off my letters. 
 
 Q. They were Republicans ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They were not anxious, then, for you to stay?—A. They were Re¬ 
 publicans, and they said I had better go back. 
 
 Q. They advised you to come back home ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they very strong Republicans ?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they good looking men?—A. Yes, sir; they looked like in - 
 telligent men. 
 
384 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. And they advised you to leave Indiana?—A. Yes, sir; they 
 thought it best, as they said we were most ou to starvation. 
 
 Q. These people who go out there didn’t take money to buy land, 
 and so they have to work and earn some before they can make any 
 purchases ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If a man went to Indiana with three or five hundred dollars in his 
 pocket he could do as he pleased, could he not?—A. Five hundred dol¬ 
 lars wouldn’t go far with him there to buy land. 
 
 Q. How far would it go in North Carolina?—A. A right smart piece. 
 
 Q. It wouldn’t buy much in Raleigh would it?—A. Well, sir, I 
 haven’t been there since l was a boy. 
 
 Q. Well, $500 wouldn’t buy much in a city ?—A. I think not. 
 
 Q. And wouldn’t do so in Indianapolis ?—A. No, sir ; I don’t sup¬ 
 pose it would. 
 
 Q. Suppose you were to go out into the unsettled parts of Indiana as 
 in North Carolina, then it would go pretty far, wouldn’t it?—A. I can’t 
 keep up with you about that; I am telling only as far as I went. 
 
 Q. Well, if you were to go out in the country it would go farther than 
 in the city ?—A. I don’t know ; I have not any experience of it. 
 
 Q. (By the Chairman.) Mr. Blair has asked you if you believe it is right 
 for a man to go anywhere in this country that be pleases, and you said 
 you do think so. Do you think it is right to be induced to leave your 
 home and go away where you are not known, and where you cannot get 
 work, by means of falsehoods and misrepresentations ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don’t think a man ought to be induced in that way to go 
 where he would be worse off?—A. No, sir; I don’t think so. 
 
 Q. You think that has been done in this case ?—A. Yes, sir; with 
 me and all the rest. 
 
 Q. And that is the feeling of the colored people towards this man 
 Perry ?—A. The feeling, so far as I presume of it, is great dissatisfaction 
 with him. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Syphax, I will swear you as the next witness. 
 
 The witness, John B. Syphax (colored), addressed the chair : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, allow me to state here that the testimony which I 
 have to give before your honorable committee will relate altogether to 
 the Senator from Minnesota, Mr. Windom, who is a member of this 
 committee. L expect to charge him, and 1 believe that I can prove that 
 he originated this matter, and I make the special request that he be 
 here to listen to it. I shall regard him as the originator of this move¬ 
 ment, and I shall be glad to have him here .and hear my testimony. 
 
 The Chairman. Very well, we will not examine you until he is 
 present. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. W. DODD. 
 
 J. W. Dodd was sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. You may state where you reside.—Answer. Indianapolis, Iud. 
 Q. State what positions you have occupied in the State.—A. I have 
 occupied official positions in the State for some years, but not now. 
 
 Q. You have been auditor of the State?—A. I have been for two terms 
 or four years. 
 
 Q. You reside at Indianapolis now?-—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has your attention been called to the matter of this emigration of 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 385 
 
 colored people into our State?—A. Yes, sir; X have beard of it and 
 read of it in the newspapers, and have seen them arrive in droves and 
 squads, and noticed them afterwards on the streets, and talked to a good 
 many of them. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any of them making any statements on the subject ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; I was present when some of them made and subscribed 
 to certain statements, and I have read some statements made when I 
 wasn’t present. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the names of any of them who made statements 
 to \our knowledge ? 
 
 (The witness*produced a paper containing names, and then answered:) 
 
 A. Well, I talked with Needham Green and Peter Dew, John Taylor, 
 Louis Williams, a man named Miller, and Robert Mawley. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Needham Green making a statement in writing? 
 —A. 1 didn’t see it; I only know what I heard him say. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Peter Dew making a statement ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see him make it?—A. I don’t know as I did. I think I 
 was present when he signed it; I wasn’t present when lie made it. 
 
 Q. See if you can identify that as a copy of the paper you know of his 
 making (handing witness a paper).—A. lam not certain, sir, that 1 
 was present when he made that statement, but I heard him state all that 
 was here. 
 
 Q. If you can identify that as the statement substantially made to 
 you, do so.—A. Yes, sir; 1 heard him state all that is here. 
 
 Q. You may read that then. 
 
 The Witness (reading): u I, Peter Dew, make the following statement 
 of my own free will this the 19th day of June, 1880: I, with 400 other 
 persons emigrated to Indiana four weeks ago. I came here through pre¬ 
 vious promises made by Samuel Perry and Peter Williams, both of whom 
 are Republicans. They represented that I would receive for labor on 
 farms $15 per mouth, provisions, and a cow and calf, and in the city 
 would be paid $2.50 per day. They also said that each one who came 
 would be given and furnished a house; that we could buy land in any 
 tract that we wanted for from one dollar to a dollar and a half per acre. 
 Not one of these promises is true, so far as I know. I haven’t found 
 work of any kind except at a coal yard and stave factory, where 1 
 worked four days and received $2.50. I can’t find any work ; my money 
 is all gone, and I will have to call on the city for help. I am a Repub¬ 
 lican, and 1 came here expecting to vote that ticket.” Yes, sir, he made 
 all those statements to me. 1 am not quite sure that I was present when 
 he made this statement. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything to you about going back ?—A. He said he 
 would like to go back, and he was trying to collect money to get back 
 the tirst day 1 saw him. 
 
 Q. Was he a man of family ?—A. Yes, sir; I think he had a wife and 
 several children. 
 
 Q. Was his family with him?—A. I can’t say positively, bat I think 
 he had them. 
 
 Q, Did you talk with Needham Green?—A. Yes, sir; I talked to four 
 or five together, among whom those names I mentioned, and I don’t 
 know that I can state what each one said by himself, except Peter Dew ; 
 him I remember particularly. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect Needham Green so that you can recollect what he 
 said ?—A. I thiuk I can. 
 
 Q. Do you remember his telling you that the reason he came was 
 that Perry aud Williams and Evans promised him work, and that he 
 
 25 ex 
 
386 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 would bo paid from two to three dollars a day, and that houses were fur¬ 
 nished there waiting for the emigrants !—A. Yes, sir; I think all four 
 said so. 
 
 Q. Do you remember Green and the others, whether those or not made 
 particular statements that Ferry and others told them that there were 500 
 carpenters pushing all the time building homes for emigrants ?—A. I 
 think one of them made that statement—one of those whose names I 
 gave you. 
 
 Q. How did they say they found things out there agreeing with those 
 promises!—A. They said they had been deceived and disappointed, ami 
 if they had their way about it the colored men in North Carolina would 
 know the facts and be told to stay at home. 
 
 Q. Did they say anything about going out there to vote the indepen¬ 
 dent Republican ticket ?—A. Some of them said that; I asked Peter 
 Dews about it and lie would not say what was the purpose, but he ex- 
 pected to vote the Republican ticket. He thought he was expected to 
 do that, and that all of them were. Some of them said they were told 
 before they left North Carolina that they were expected to be good strong 
 Republicans—valiant, stout-hearted Republicans. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect a man named John Taylor!—A. Yes, sir; he 
 was in the party, and that is what he said. 
 
 Q. He says here, “I was induced to leave North Carolina by SamT 
 Perry and Williams, who are Republicans. They told me I would be 
 paid $15 and $3 per day with borne furnished ; firewood, amPcow and 
 calf free; that they were furnishing clothing, &c., ready; that land 
 would be furnished in such tracts as the emigrants wanted, and they 
 would have from six to seven years to pay it in ?—A. Yes, sir; I think 
 all four said so. 
 
 Q. That these lands could be had from a dollar to a dollar and a half 
 per acre?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, And that a hundred acres could be bought by each emigrant ?— 
 A. Yes, sir ; They also stated they could have a number of years to pay 
 for it in. 
 
 Q. Did any of them speak about what time they were expected to go 
 or to get to Indiana ?—A. 1 don’t think I heard any of them say any¬ 
 thing about that. 
 
 Q. What did they say women’s wages would be as represented to them 
 down in North Carolina?—A. They said it was represented that plenty 
 of work could be had for them as house servants, and that they could get 
 three to five dollars per week. 
 
 Q. What are the wages of good servant girls in Indiana?—A. Well, 
 sir, one of our best servants gets from two and a half to three and a 
 half per week. 
 
 Q. That is tor choice women ?—A. Yes, sir ; they get from ten to fif¬ 
 teen dollars per mouth. 
 
 Q. You have seen some of the women folks who came with these em¬ 
 igrants?—A. Yes, sir; some of them. 
 
 Q. Are they such as would be employed to do house work in Indian¬ 
 apolis?—A. No, sir; I think not. They are women with children, and 
 a good many of them small children such as would not be desired in such 
 a place. 
 
 Q. You talked with Louis Williams, did you not ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is the same man whose statement was read here by Mr. East?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He made substantially the same statements to you ?—A. Yes, sir 
 I believe I saw him make that statement. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 387 
 
 Q. Do you remember a man by the name of James Wooten ?—A. I 
 am not positive, but I think so. I think he was one of the parties I 
 talked with. 
 
 Q. When did you have those talks with those parties ?— A. I saw 
 them in the street, and in the room in the Sentinel building, and in the 
 rooms of the office of the auditor of state. 
 
 Q. Were they all manifesting a wish to go home, if they had the 
 means?—A. That is what I understood from them. 
 
 Q. Were they all men of family ?—A. I think most of them were. 
 
 Q. Do you remember a man by tbe name of Samuel McKay?—A. 
 No, sir; not by name. 
 
 Q. Did any of them complain of being abused in North Carolina ?—A. 
 No, sir; the men I talked with said thev were well enough oft in Nortn 
 Carolina and making a living. Some of them said they had disposed of 
 their little property to get there to Indiana. Some of them had sold a 
 little ground, and a cow and calf, and a horse and wagou to get the 
 means, and had spent it all and had arrived there destitute. 
 
 Q. You have spent all your life in Indiana, Mr. Dodd ?—A. Yes, sir ; 
 since 1 was a boy. 
 
 Q. And about twenty-five years in Iudianapolis?—A. I went there in 
 185 ( 5 . 
 
 Q, Do you know a much more unpromising place where a man could 
 go to look for work at this time?—A. I wouldn’t advise anybody to go 
 there at this time. 
 
 Q. White or black or any color ?—-A. No, sir ; I think for two or three 
 years past the supply for every kind of labor has been ample. The rea¬ 
 son is this, that Indianapolis had a very rapid growth up to 1873. It 
 was very prosperous and buildings and improvements were going on 
 very fast. The town and country round were filled up with laborers, 
 and we had inflation in prices, but that suddenly stopped and these 
 men are there, and there are more of them than can be employed. 
 
 Q. Isn’t there much suffering among the poorer classes, and wouldn’t 
 many of them die from want unless they were helped by public charity ? 
 
 -—A. Yes, sir ; the record of tbe township trustees show that last winter 
 many of them were suffering and had to be helped. It is a very un¬ 
 promising place just now for poor people. Perhaps it is a little better 
 now than for several years past, and I hope it is. • . 
 
 Q. You are acquainted with the leading men of Indianapolis, and 
 through the State?—-A. Yes, sir ; I believe I am. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed any Republican newspapers discouraging this 
 immigration ?—A. No, sir; I don’t think I have. I don’t remember 
 now but one paper ever saying anything on the other side of the ques¬ 
 tion, and that is The Indianapolis News. 
 
 Q. And it is not square in the traces, is it ?—A. It doesn’t call itself 
 a Republican newspaper ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. It calls itself an independent newspaper?—A. Yes, sir; that is 
 what it calls itself. 
 
 Q. You haven’t noticed any other paper of even Republican leaning 
 that has discouraged this movement ?—A. No, sir ; 1 think they have 
 all encouraged it, so far as I know. 
 
 Q. What is the feeling in Indianapolis as to whether this is a political 
 movement or not ?—A. I think it is the opinion of every man of reason¬ 
 able intelligence who reads the papers, that it is a Republican move¬ 
 ment for the purpose of carrying the State of Indiana. I think that is 
 public opinion. It is evidenced by the fact that the Republican news- 
 
388 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 papers approve it, and men who talk on the streets chuckle at it, while 
 Democrats swear it. 
 
 Q. The truth is, it is as much a question there as any that has ever 
 been before them?—A. Yes, sir ; and there is another reason far above 
 that, and that is that you can’t account for it on any other ground. 
 There is no reason why they should go there, except to be used for that 
 purpose. They leave a climate that is hospitable and congenial to 
 them,and go where they can’t get work, and where they are unsuited ; 
 their native country to a country where they are not wanted, where 
 they are not acclimated ; to an inhospitable country where they suffer 
 and die ; and for all this you have to give a reason, and you can’t find it 
 anywhere except from the evidences I have given you : that is, the 
 movement is for political purposes. The real movers may be concealed, 
 but they pull the trigger all the same. That is my judgment of it. 
 
 Senator Blair. Have you ever been to North Carolina?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of any colored people being subjected to 
 hardships and abuses there in the last fifteen years, or in the South 
 generally?—A. I don’t know as I have; my impression, from what i 
 have seen aud heard from others, is that they are doing well. 
 
 Q. You don’t know that the people who live there have lost some of 
 their rights, aud think they can do better elsewhere?—A. No,sir; none 
 that I have known have said so. 
 
 Q. How many have you known ?—A. I think I have given you the 
 names of all of them. 
 
 Q. Then you have seen those only who have been scraped together, 
 gotten up by the Democratic strikers and feuglemen of the Sentinel 
 office and State House, who were trying to get these statements to be 
 sent here as evidence before this committee; and you think that is the 
 sort of evidence that should be sent here to prove that men are taken 
 from that State and brought to Indiana to vote the Republican ticket ? 
 
 (The witness hesitating ——) 
 
 Mr. Blair. I suppose you don’t understand the question. 
 
 The Witness. No, sir ; 1 didn’t think you were asking a question. 
 
 Q. A r ou were summing up the reasons, or rather stating that there 
 was no possible reason for their going to Indiana, except that the Re¬ 
 publicans there wanted them to vote ?—A. I didn’t say there was no 
 possible reason ; I said it was the only reasonable explanation for their 
 going. 
 
 Q. You are aware of the fact that a great many colored people do 
 give reasons for leaving North Carolina and other portions of the 
 •South that are different from that one?—A. I have not seen anv from 
 any other portion of the South except North Carolina. 
 
 Q. And of those you have seen none except those who have given 
 these statements?—A. I have never seen or heard of anything to the 
 contrary, except one statement which I saw in a negro paper there in 
 Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. You stated that these statements were all you knew anything 
 about?—A. Thev were all the written statements. 
 
 Q. Then upon these statements of these men you make up your opin¬ 
 ion as to the reason why the great mass of them leave North Carolina ?— 
 A. That is the reason I have heard from all I have talked with ; the 
 same given, for instance, by the man who has just left this chair (Green 
 Ruffin). 
 
 Q. Did you hear him make these statements anywhere but here?— 
 A. No, sir; but I have heard the same things from those in Indiana. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 389 
 
 Q. Then you didn’t make lip your mind here?—A. No, sir; I had it 
 pretty well made up when I left Indiana. 
 
 Q. Wasn’t your mind made up before you left Iudiana that the lle- 
 pub leans were making them leave North Carolina and going there in 
 order to get their votes ?—A. Yes, sir; I think so still. 
 
 Q. And you say these statements were all that you heard from the 
 colored men as to why they were induced to leave North Carolina ?—A. 
 Yes, sir; these statements, and my talks with some eight or ten of them, 
 
 Q. Did those men, any of them, make any statements of the hard¬ 
 ships they endured at the South ?—A. I think I stated that all of them 
 said they were doing well and were treated well there. 
 
 Q. Have you stated all the grounds upon which you base your opinions 
 that this was a political movement?—A. Yes, sir; I think I have. 
 
 Q. And it is based on the statements of those eight or ten colored 
 men who were well off in North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir; and who were 
 induced to go there by false representations. 
 
 Q. If all the rest, leaving out these ten, were to give a different reason 
 you would change your opinion, would you not? If they stated that 
 they came North because they could educate their children better, and 
 get better wages, and enjoy their civil rights, would you alter your 
 opinion?—A. If there were any evidences that these statements were 
 due I would; but if the men were paupers and beggars there in Indiana, 
 and were still to tell me they had plenty of work when I knew they had 
 not, I would not believe them. 
 
 Q. You would believe them, though, until it was proven that they lied ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; if the evidence was right there with them. 
 
 Q. Suppose the large mass of them said they came there to better 
 educate their children, and to regain their political rights, and that by 
 the system of labor in the South, under the landlord and tenant act, he 
 was deprived of the fruits of his labor, and expected to do better in In¬ 
 diana, then you would believe him !—A. Yes, sir. Without other evi¬ 
 dence I should have to believe him. 
 
 Q. If the colored man came and said he had worked here in the South, 
 .and was paid in orders on stores, &e., and was not enabled to enjoy the 
 fruits of his labor, wouldn’t you believe him I—-A. Well, sir, you put a 
 hard hvpotheticai case. 
 
 Q. Wouldn’t you believe him if he said that?—A. Well, sir, from the 
 evidence that 1 havb had from them, I think I would believe him as 
 quick as if he had said that two and two make live. 
 
 Q. The evidence that you mean that you have, is contained in these 
 statements. Now, suppose that five times as many were to give other 
 reasons, wouldn’t you believe them ?—A. Not unless I had some other 
 proof of the state of things than I have got up now. 
 
 Q. If they were to say it wasn’t a political movement, wouldn’t you 
 believe what they did say ?—A. It would require some other proof to 
 make ine believe it. 
 
 Q. 1 take it that your feelings and political prejudices, are pretty 
 strong on this subject?—A. I don’t know as I liavfc any prejudices on 
 the subject. I think that 1 could demonstrate that my opinion is a fact, 
 or that there is sufficient reason for a man to have such an opinion. 
 
 Q. You said, I believe, that there w r as no cause for it except a politi¬ 
 cal one ?—A. I say there has been none furnished thus far. 
 
 Q. You say, in effect, that you would not believe what these people 
 say as to their treatment down there. Now, are you not unreasonable 
 in taking these statements of eight or ten persons to be true, because 
 (they agree with you, and refuse to take the statements of fifty others 
 
390 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 who say different?—A. I don’t know anything about them. I have 
 never heard those statements. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you hear the man who was sitting there a few 
 days ago state that he was a slave at the end of the war, and now had 
 property and white tenants on his land, &c. ?—A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q And you were impressed with the belief that in a State that would 
 allow a man to do that, wasn’t a very bad place?—A. Yes, sir; those 
 are among the things which go to make my opinion. My opinions are 
 made up from what I see and hear and read. 
 
 Q. And you think there is no reasonable cause for this exodus, unless 
 it is a political one?—A. No, sir; I don’t think any man can give a 
 good one that will be different. 
 
 Q. Y r ou think so, too, because the entire Republican press of the State,, 
 while they don’t approve of it, doift disapprove of it?—A. Yes, sir;, 
 that’s a fact. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Did you hear a colored witness who testified here, and who said 
 that out of the entire population of his county he only knew two col¬ 
 ored men who owned property ¥—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the colored people were in the majority in his county?— 
 A. I think I heard one say so. 
 
 Q. What would you think of the state of society where a majority of 
 the people in the county—heads of families—in fifteen years of freedom 
 were not able to accumulate enough property to acquire a homestead t 
 What do you think of that state of society and laws?—A. That is an- 
 o her hypothetical case of yours. I would have to know the facts before 
 expressing an opinion. 
 
 Q. If that is a fact what do you say of it?—-A. I would say that those 
 men who had not acquired anything were not a very thrifty set of men. 
 
 Q. Suppose the laws and the influence of the dominant class are such 
 that they could not do it?-—A. J could not suppose that, because the 
 A ery evidence you refer-me to is different. They said that the laws are 
 good and equal as to whites and blacks; that they had voted as they 
 believed. 
 
 Q. Y r ou don’t seem to be disposed to answer my question except on 
 such evidence as you believe yourself. When the chairman asks you a 
 question which is supposititious, you answer it, presuming that it is true?’ 
 —A. Mr. Senator, when that state of things is presented to me as a fact,, 
 then I can answer it. 
 
 Q. And you won’t until then ?— A. I don’t know what I might do if 
 the state of facts were presented to me as true. The broad fact is, if a 
 man reads the newspapers in Indiana he must think it is a political 
 movement, and intended to carry the State of Indiana for the Republi¬ 
 cans. 1 believe if 1 were allowed to make a speech of thirty minutes, I 
 could make you believe it. 
 
 Senator Blair. Well, that is your opinion, but it is not the public 
 opinion of Indiana. We have had a plenty of evidence here to the con¬ 
 trary. 
 
 The Chairman. As Mr. Blair is making a statement about the public- 
 opinion ot Indiana and the evidence, 1 will make one myself, and say to 
 you, Mr. Dodd, that there is plenty of evidence here that what you say 
 is true. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned to 10.30 a. m. Wednesday*Feb* 
 ruary 18, 1880. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 391 
 
 SEVENTEENTH DAY. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. B. SYPHAX. 
 
 J. B. Syphax (colored) was sworn and examined, as follows: 
 
 The Witness. Before you proceed, Mr. Chairman, to interrogate me, 
 it may he proper for me to say that I am pleased to answer any question 
 that any member of the committee may ask, or to go on in a general 
 way and make my statement, just as it may suit the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. After I ask you a few questions you may go on and 
 make your statement. Give us your name.—Answer. John B. Syphax. 
 
 Q. Where do you reside?—-A. At Arlington County, Alexandria, Va. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided there !—-A. It is my birth place. I am 
 living now right where I was born. 
 
 Q. What is your age!—A. Thirty-eight, I think. 
 
 (J. Mr. Syphax, the reason that I had you subpoenaed was, that I saw 
 your name appended to a printed report which had been made to a meet¬ 
 ing of your people on the subject of the exodus. The matter attracted 
 inv attention, and I had you subpoenaed in order to enable you to give 
 the committee your views upon that subject!—-A. Well, Mr. Chairman, 
 in so far as any information that I may have touching this matter is con¬ 
 cerned, it is rather of a peculiar character, and I suppose it will be nec¬ 
 essary for me to make some reference here just at this point, i have 
 some papers in my pocket to which I can refer, I suppose, as the com¬ 
 mittee desires information. 
 
 Q. You may state, in passing, what your politics are.— A. Mr. Chair¬ 
 man, I have never been a slave to any party, but I am known in the 
 State of Virginia as affiliating with the Republican party. I hold the 
 local office of justice of the peace, elected on a Republican ticket. 
 
 Now, sir, in the beginning of this matter, so far as the immediate 
 cause of the movement is concerned, as I said yesterday, and as I very 
 significantly indicated, that I would hold the very distinguished mem¬ 
 ber of your committee and also of the Senate of the United States, Mr. 
 Windom, responsible for it. I know nothing concerning the origin or 
 causes of the exodus; yet the resolution and speech made in the Senate 
 by Mr. Windom, of Minnesota. I think I will be able to state to the 
 committee that my judgment in that particular is correct. 
 
 Now, when this resolution was first offered, or before it was offered in 
 the Senate, there is a man there who sweeps the floor of the American 
 Senate, and one or two other colored men in this city, who were re¬ 
 quested by the Senator from Minnesota to come to him and request that 
 he should originate something of this character touching the status of 
 the colored people in the South, for what purpose I have been unable 
 to learn. After reading his resolution, after that, in some of the news¬ 
 papers here, and regarding the matter as being quite a startling and 
 extraordinary position to be assumed or taken by either a Republican 
 or Democratic Senator, I came to the Capitol, and went into the docu¬ 
 ment room of the Senate and requested a copy of that resolution. While 
 there a gentleman came in who was an employe in the Senate—I think 
 lie occupied the position of doorkeeper. I think he comes from tin*/ 
 State of Rhode Island, and is a colored man, and I think his name is 
 Gaskins. He thought, like other colored men who had been gotten in 
 to express an enthusiasm for the movement, and he made some state¬ 
 ments to me. 
 
 I desire to be strictly truthful, and let me say that I speak the truth 
 because I have some feeling in this matter, for it goes beyond party feel- 
 
392 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 in", and so far as ray testimony is concerned it will not be for the pur 
 pose of giving any particular consolation to either the Democratic or 
 Republican party. 1 think my head is pretty clear as to that. While 
 reading this resolution in the presence of an ex-member of the legisla¬ 
 ture, a man who served in that body with myself, this man Gaskins 
 came up and said to me (of course I suppose he was an ignorant man, 
 and knew nothing of the matter at all), but he said to me, u Well, I hope 
 you heartily endorse this movement, because Senator Windom has said 
 that when he makes his speech in the Senate on this question he desires 
 to hold in his hand letters, communications, from 500 colored representa¬ 
 tive men.’ 7 That was all about that he said to me. 
 
 But to show you that I have acted perfectly square and honest, I 
 went directly to the door of the Senate and met the Senator from Min- 
 nesota. I inquired of him when he would make his speech on this ques¬ 
 tion, and he said to me Friday, perhaps, if he could prepare his notes 
 and get ready. I don’t think the speech was made on Friday, but I 
 was in the gallery and heard it, and I went at once to him, and before 
 he made his speeds here in Washington the past January, the 29th of 
 January, 1879, I think it was, I addressed the Senator a letter on my 
 own responsibility, and as one identified with this people, whose inter¬ 
 ests were called in question, representing myself and nobody else, and 
 I have that letter here over my signature. 
 
 Q. Do you desire to make it a part of your testimony % If so, just 
 read it so the reporter can take it.—-A. They have it headed, u Moving 
 the blacks about—-A colored Virginian legislator who does not agree 
 with Senator Windom—Mr. Syphax as a leading colored man. 77 
 
 I put this in the post office addressed to the distinguished member 
 from Minnesota. This was the beginning of the matter, so far as I know 
 it, and as I said before, I am at the disposal of the committee to answer 
 any questions, or if they desire me to go on and make any further state¬ 
 ment. 
 
 The Chairman. Go on Mr. Syphax —A. After this, there was much 
 confusion over the subject, and having thus committed myself in this 
 way, I had but one object in view, and that was to defeat the move¬ 
 ment. The letter was published in North Carolina, there in the city of 
 Raleigh, last August. After that I thought it proper that we should 
 have a meeting in the city here, and have an investigation here at the 
 very capital. I made some such proposition, and we had the meeting, 
 and I offered a resolution, which is here in this newspaper, with this 
 report in it. I will only read it for the committee. 
 
 (The witness read the resolution.) 
 
 1 made the same charges in this report, and I am ready now to do the 
 best I can to sustain the assertions I have made. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Have you told us all you know about it?—A. I may know some¬ 
 thing else. The better way is to interrogate me. I am in your hands. 
 
 Q. I want you to tell all you know. I want you to tell it right out 
 in your own wav.—A. I don 7 t know that 1 can suit you in that way. 
 
 Q. I ask you if you know anything more about this movement ?—A. 
 That question isn’t the one to ask me. 
 
 Q. 1 want to know if you know anything more about it ?—A. I don’t 
 know that I have anything more to say. 
 
 Q. Are you keeping back anything that you do know?—A. I don’t 
 know as I am. When the chairman tells me that I am in the hands of 
 gentlemen to be interrogated, I take it that that is the proper course of 
 the examination. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 303 
 
 Q. Well, I am interrogating you now. Do you know any more about 
 this matter ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell it.—A. I will. After this matter was referred to, there were 
 a number of gentlemen, who were on the very same line, who came up 
 to interview the Senator from Minnesota—a Mr. Greener, Mr. Du Foe, 
 and several other gentlemen. They had an interview with him, and 
 it’s all quoted here in my report. They carried out the programme on 
 the line already indicated. Tt was such a character of meeting as would 
 justify the Senator from Minnesota in going before the country and 
 stating the position of the colored men as indorsing this movement, 
 &c. 
 
 Q. Is that all you know about it ?—A. I guess that is all. 
 
 Q. Have they any lunatic asylums in Virginia to which colored peo¬ 
 ple are admitted?—A. In the State of Virginia, Senator ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.-—A. We have two there, one for colored people and one 
 for white people, and when we find people there who don’t understand 
 themselves we send them to one or the other. 
 
 Q, How did you escape?—A. If the Senator wants to go to one of 
 them, and will go to my county, we will send him. 
 
 Q. How did you escape from one ?—A. They released me on the sup¬ 
 position that I would interview you, and get you to go there. 
 
 Q. And you came here to interview Mr. Voorhees and other members 
 of the committee?—A. No, sir; not particularly. 
 
 Q. But you have sworn that you were released?—A. Of course the 
 records will show what I said. 
 
 Q. Certain ?—A. If the Senator wants to make anything out of me in 
 that way, or begin his bulldozing, he can do so. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I didn’t understand you, Mr. Syphax, to swear that you were re¬ 
 leased from a lunatic asylum, but that you made that statement in the 
 same spirit of badinage that the Senator from Minnesota was using ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were not, in point of fact, ever released from a lunetic asy¬ 
 lum ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are a justice of the peace, elected by the Republican party ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And I think that yon are about the best one of that 
 party that I ever saw. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. You say you wrote that letter to me?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn’t get any answer to it ?—A. No, sir. Any more ques- 
 tons? 
 
 Senator Windom. No, sir; I don’t think you know enough of this 
 subject to justify my asking you anything. 
 
 The Witness. All right, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ADAMS. 
 
 JosEPn Adams (colored) sworn and examined, as follows: 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is your name?—Answer. Joseph Adams. 
 Q. Where do you live?—A. In Goldsborough. 
 
 Q. North Carolina ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
394 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. How long have you been away from there f —A. Three weeks. 
 
 Q. Wliat are you doing up here?—A. I came up here the time the 
 emigrants was going up West, and I stopped here. 
 
 Q. What made you stop here?—A. 1 heard there was no getting along 
 for a poor man up West, and I stopped. . I have no money to back me 
 up, and they said a poor man couldn’t get along there, so I stopped here. 
 
 Q. Who told you that a poor man couldn’t get along there?—A. X 
 can’t remember, but he was a man who was going along back home. 
 
 Q. He had been out to Indiana ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he said there was no place for you out there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why don’t you go back to .North Carolina ?—A. I had run through 
 all 1 had, and I staid here. 
 
 Q. Have you had any work since you have been here?—A. Yes, sir; 
 two days I worked at Mr. Smith’s mill. 
 
 Q. Are you going back when you can ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Sam Perry since you have been here?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say about how they were getting along out there ?— 
 A. He said he went through here about two or three weeks ago, and 
 that he went to the barracks out there, where they were crammed in as 
 thick as they could be with colored people from the South. He said he 
 was going there; that he went to stay all night; that there were two or 
 three who died when he was in there, and he wouldn’t stay. 
 
 Q. What did Sam I^erry tell you down in North Carolina ?—A. I didn’t 
 hear Sam Perry speak. 
 
 Q. What did Talor Evans say?—A. ne said any colored man, if he 
 tried to got along, could make two or three dollars a day out there, and 
 furthermore said that the colored and white people were about on an 
 equality—all sociated together. 
 
 Q. He said they all sociated together?—A. Yes, sir; I heard him 
 speak that. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about the chance a colored man had to get 
 married with a white woman ?—A. He said there was no difference out 
 there; that if a man was any account, and any kind of looking colored 
 man, he could get married with one kind as well as the other. 
 
 Q. Are you a single man ?—A. I am a married man with four children. 
 
 Q. Are they at home ?—A. Yes, sir. They are at Goldsborough. My 
 wife has been cooking for John Powers for four or live years. 
 
 Q. Where is this man Evans?—A. I don’t know, sir; I haven’t seen 
 him since about a month ago; he came along herewith a lot of emi¬ 
 grants going up West. He went on through, but I hear he has been 
 here since. 
 
 Q. What do you think of him ?—A. I don’t think much of him at all. 
 
 Q. You don’t believe what he told you ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. This is a committee appointed under a resolution of the Senate to 
 investigate the causes of the exodus. Won’t you tell us what you know 
 about the causes of the exodus?—A. I have told you as near as I have 
 knowed them. 
 
 Q. What is the reason that you came from North Carolina? Was it 
 on account of all these things that you have stated ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You thought, among other things, if you went to Indiana, a black 
 man could marry a white woman the same as if she was black ?—A. I 
 didn’t havb anything to do with that, because I was a married man. X 
 started there to make a better living. 
 
 Q. Then that privilege of marrying didn’t influence you ?—A. No, sir; 
 it didn’t. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 395 
 
 Q. Then T want to get at the exact reason why yon left ?—A. The 
 reason I left North Carolina was because I thought 1 could make a better 
 living there than in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. That was iu Indiana?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been there?—A. No, sir; but I have heard from there. 
 
 Q. You have heard stories both ways, haven’t you?—A. I can only 
 testify to what I heard ; I know I can get along better in North Carolina 
 than the way I hear from Indiana. 
 
 Q. How do you know that that which you hear is true?—A. Because 
 1 have seen people who came from there. 
 
 Q. Haven’t you seen anybody who told you you could get along better 
 there ?—Yes, sir ; but they live in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Do you mean Perry and Williams ?—A. Yes, sir; they lived in 
 Noi th Carolina. 
 
 Q. They have been there some time, haven’t they?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 they haven’t been there to work. 
 
 Q. Well, pretty much all the colored people who have been to Indiana 
 stay there?—A. Gone where? 
 
 Q. To Indiana.—A. l r ou mean who went from North Carolina ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. I have seen one or two who have gone back. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that most of the colored people—industrious, sen¬ 
 sible, economical colored people—who are there, are doing well and pro¬ 
 pose to stay ?—A. I don’t know nothing, except what I hear. 
 
 Q. You came here and stopped ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is everybody who has gone out there starving? Is that what you 
 hear ?—A. The way they talk they are starving pretty bad up there. 
 That is the reason I stopped here. 
 
 Q. You have been in Washington ever since?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, this is a bad place for colored people, too?—A. Yes, sir; I 
 could make a living if I could get the work and they would pay me. 
 
 Q. Don’t you believe if you were iu Indiana, and disposed to work, 
 you could get all the work you wanted ?—A. I don’t know anything about 
 that. 
 
 Q. If you didn’t know how it is, and don’t know that the stories you 
 hear are true, why is it that you say they are false, and that the people 
 are not doing well out there?—A. Because the people who come from 
 Indiana say they have not done a lick of work since they have been 
 there, and that some are there who can’t get away. 
 
 Q. That is what you hear?—A. Yes, sir; that is what these men say 
 who came from up there. 
 
 Q. How many have you heard say so?—A. Two or three. 
 
 Q, You have seen or heard from very few of them ?—A. I have heard 
 mighty smart from up there. 
 
 Q. Who have you been with and who have you talked to since you 
 have been here?—A. I haven’t associated with anybody much. I have 
 been with Perry two or three days, walking about some. 
 
 Q. How did you happen to be here to testify before this committee?— 
 A. I was up here by the stairs in the Senate when I was subpoenaed. 
 
 Q. Was that when we had a hearing in Mr. Yoorhees’s room ?—A. 
 No, sir; 1 don’t know anything about that. 
 
 Q. How long has it been since you were summoned ?—A. To day. 
 
 Q. When are you going back to North Carolina?—A. Some time next 
 week. 
 
 Q. Have you got the means to go on ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What amount will it take ?—A. Thirteen dollars and fifty cents. 
 
396 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Where did you get it !— A. I had the money when I came here. 
 Do you waut me to tell how much 1 had ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir.—A. Well, I don’t think it is right to do that. 
 
 Q. You had money enough to go back on all the time !—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you got enough now !—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How much have you got !—A. Eight or nine dollars. 
 
 Q. Have you had it all the time!—A. No, sir; not always. 
 
 Q. How are you going to get the rest of the money to get home with ! 
 — A. Work for it. 
 
 Q. Who for!—A. For anybody. 
 
 Q. Who for particularly !—A. I don’t know yet. 
 
 Q. You know yo,u are going to work for it!—A. Yes, sir; I am going 
 to work for Mr. Smith, down at the mill. 
 
 Q. How much do you get !—A. Ninety cents a day. 
 
 Q. From now until next week, how much can you earn!—A. I don’t 
 know. 
 
 Q. What time are you going to start home !—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 Q. Has anybody promised you the means to go back on !—A. No, sir ; 
 nobody has promised me anything. I may stay here two or three weeks, 
 but I am going back to my wife and children. 
 
 Q. Well, in North Carolina, did you make a living!—A. Y^es, sir; I 
 worked for Mr. Daws eight years, and for Mr. Galloway. I can tell you 
 all that I worked for. 
 
 Q. Do you own any lands!—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you worked hard all the time !—A. Yes, sir; I work for my 
 living. 
 
 Q. How much did you work !—A. Nearly all the time. 
 
 Q. On an average of three-fourths of the time!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much did you get! Did you work all the day !—A. Some¬ 
 times. 
 
 Q. How r much did you get by the day !—A. From 75 cents to GO cents. 
 
 Q. Did you board yourself—take care of yourself out of that!—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you work some by the month !—A. Yes, sir; for eight years. 
 
 Q. What did you get then !—A. The first year I got $12 and from 
 that on down to $10 per month. 
 
 Q. Then for eight years you got from $12 to $10 per month.—A. 
 Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. How were you paid ! In money or in goods out of the store !—A. 
 There was no store there. 
 
 Q. How were you paid !—A. In money. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say there are no stores about there!—A. Yes, sir ; there are 
 in Goldsborough, but I was three miles from town. I worked eight years 
 from 1871. 
 
 Q. Did you work all the year during those eight years !—A. Yes, sir; 
 the whole year round. 
 
 Q. And 3mu had $10 to $12 dollars per month all the year round !— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is all you had to support your family with !—A. No, sir; 
 they allowed me half of every other Saturday, and a horse and plow to 
 work a little land they let me have, and I raised a little cotton and a 
 little corn on my patch. 
 
 Q. That would be a day you were allowed in each month !—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have a house to live in !—A. Of course they furnished me 
 a house. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 397 
 
 Q. Was there a school near by ?—A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. How much of the time each year ?—A. 1 think it is a three or four 
 months’ session. 
 
 Q. This wasn’t a mixed school, was it, but a colored school ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; it was a colored school. 
 
 Q. Had you during these six years been able to save any money ?— 
 A. If 1 had taken care of it I could have done so. 
 
 Q. If you had done your best, how much could you have saved?—A. 
 From the time the vegetables came off, I could have saved per mouth 
 three or four dollars. 
 
 Q. You didu’t save any?—A. No, sir; because I run through it. 
 
 Q. You spent all this money, then ?—A. Yes, sir; .one thing with the 
 colored people is that they buy every kind of something to eat. 
 
 Q. You think it is wasting money to buy something to eat ?—A. I 
 don’t think the colored people ought to buy everything that they have 
 got money to buy of, but put some of it away. 
 
 Q. How did you spend yours?—A. Buying something to eat. 
 
 Q. What did you buy to eat ?—A. I couldn’t tell that. 
 
 Q. And you think it is wrong to spend money to buy something to eat 
 with ?—A. I could have got along with out it. 
 
 Q. You would have gotten on comfortably without spending money? 
 —A. Y r es, sir; I could have lived on meat and bread as well as on the 
 line victuals that I had. 
 
 Q. What were the line victuals that you bought?—A. Well, chickens 
 and eggs and butter, and things of that kind. 
 
 Q. And you think it is out of the way for a laboring man to have 
 them ?—A. They might had them sometimes, but not as a general 
 thing. 
 
 Q. How many chickens a month would you buy?—A. I don’t know. 
 
 Q. How much eggs and butter?—A. I couldn’t tell, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be unusual to have them in Indiana ?—A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Don’t you know that they are common food for laboring people out 
 there?—A. No, sir; I don’t know anything about that. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF R. C. BADGER. 
 
 R. C. Badger was sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Question. Mr. Badger, you have been summoned before the Exodus 
 Committee to give us the causes of the exodus of the colored people 
 from North Carolina, and, as preliminary to that, I will ask you to state 
 what is the condition of the colored people in regard to their political 
 rights, and otherwise. What is your profession ?—Answer. I am a lawyer. 
 
 Q. What are your politics?—A. Well, sir, I belong to the honest- 
 money branch of the Republican party. I believe in a government 
 capable of keeping peace between the States, and in the States, and 
 protecting people in the States, and a man at the head of the govern¬ 
 ment who can carry these things out. 
 
 Q. What positions have you held in North Carolina?—A. I was twice 
 in the general assembly, and last year was in the constitutional conven¬ 
 tion of the State. I was justice of the peace, and recorder of deeds; 
 I have been prosecuting attorney in the county several terms, and have 
 
398 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 been United States district attorney for the western district of North 
 Carolina, but finding myself in discord with the present administration, 
 I resigned last year. 
 
 Q. Will you please state now the condition of the colored people in 
 North Carolina?—A. As you know, Senator, 1 am intimately wrapped 
 up in their prospects. I was opposed to slavery. I have lived with 
 them all my life, and studied their character. They are slowly develop¬ 
 ing in North Carolina in my section of the State. I am from the city 
 of Raleigh. They are beginning to accumulate property, and becoming 
 self-reliant. They were not so until very lately. They were not self- 
 reliant, but they are slowly and gradually improving. If the committee 
 will reflect that for two hundred and fifty years, taken from a barbarous 
 country, and kept in slavery, and now allowed to own property, they 
 will understand the condition of the negro; but there is a slow and 
 gradual development in my section of the State. When the war ended 
 both the blacks and whites went together, and all utterly bankrupted 
 as to property. Those who cultivated the soil had to go into the con¬ 
 trol of men who made advances, and they made their advances at from 
 .15 to 25 per cent, on the price of the things advanced. .Extreme pov¬ 
 erty has by degrees brought them out, and, in my section, they are get¬ 
 ting along reasonably well. They don’t get exact justice in the courts. 
 They are easily convicted of larceny, and, frequently, in my judgment, 
 on insufficient testimony. I know some of our judges, and most of 
 them have set aside verdicts that were wrong, and our supreme court 
 never fails to do them justice. There was a time in 1871 up to about 
 two years and a half ago, that they were treated with great barbarity, 
 during the time of the ku-klux, but the situation and present relations be¬ 
 tween the races 1 think quite as good as could be expected among a people 
 divided so by color. There is that distinction which I think would pre¬ 
 vail against them anywhere, where they would go in large numbers. 
 I took occasion to consult the colored solicitor of our circuit after I re¬ 
 ceived the telegram of your sergeant at-arms, and he goes further, and 
 says that he sees no distinction made between them on account of their 
 color at all. 1 do. The old loco-tocos (that is what I call them, though 
 some people call them bourbons)—the old loco focos down there cheated 
 them out of their votes, but I don’t think that has had anything to do 
 with the exodus. 
 
 One distinguished member of your committee got 2,700 more votes 
 down there were voters in his party in the JState. 
 
 Q. Do you think, Mr. Badger, there is any necessity for that exodus 
 from our JState to Indiana?—A. I don’t think there is any necessity for 
 the exodus from our State to Indiana. I state what I believe to be a 
 fact, that these colored people will be unable to compete with the white 
 laborers out there. Like most of the men of his kind, the negro is 
 bound to sing and have a good time, aud if he was cutting grass with 
 one of those mowers that are used in Indiana, he would either fall 
 asleep ou the seat, or run his knife against a rock, if there was one in 
 the field. I think they are going out there to meet starvation. 
 
 Q. From what you know, do you think they would improve their so¬ 
 cial and political rights by going there? —xV. I have never been in In¬ 
 diana. 1 have been in Ohio. I think the humanitarians out there 
 would treat them better probably. They have almshouses out there, 
 but I think in the southern part of Indiana they would not get along 
 so well. 
 
 Q. Will you state what has been done in North'Carolina—what is be¬ 
 ing done towards educating the colored people, giving them all the 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 399 
 
 benefits of participation in the government?—A. Except in the matter 
 of university education they have the same rights as the whites. There 
 has been no provision made for university education of the blacks. 
 They are learning faster than the whites, displaying a greater desire to 
 learn, and attend the public schools more regularly. I think the Demo¬ 
 cratic party have violated the constitution by not establishing a uni¬ 
 versity for them. They have institutions there of that character, es¬ 
 tablished by northern charity, like the Shaw University, and they are 
 turning out preachers and other well educated colored men. 
 
 Q. They have them, then, but not at the expense of the State ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; they have them, as I stated, by public charity, but they have 
 a deaf and dumb asylum, a normal school, and all that, from the State. 
 I think I could say safely that in twenty-five or thirty years there will 
 not be one person of color in all of North Carolina who can’t read and 
 write. They have shown a desire for knowledge that is remarkable. 
 They are all of them going to school who can get there. They are not 
 the best quality of schools that we have, but still they are attending 
 them promptly. 
 
 Q. Is it or is it not your opinion that this exodus is caused by any 
 political persecutions or denial of their privileges ?—A. No, sir ; I don’t 
 think so. I think it is the result of false hopes held out by the agents 
 who have gone among them. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is a good or bad thing for the race ?—A. I think it is 
 a bad thing. Of course with this qualification. I don’t know anything 
 about Indiana. There may be people there who can use them, but my own 
 judgment is that they can’t compete with northern labor. They can live 
 iu central or eastern North Carolina on two days’ labor in the week. A 
 man like the one who preceded me can do that easily. They live on a 
 peck of meal, and four and a half pounds of Cincinnati bacon, cooked 
 with collards, which is a species of brassica (I believe that is the bo- 
 tannical name for it), which grows up and runs to what we call collards. 
 
 Q. You mean that we can raise cabbages there, but they run to col¬ 
 lards f —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Vance. That is an unorganized cabbage without a head ? 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Amu spoke about the outrages during the Kuklux days. What 
 were they ?—A. They were awful outrages according to all reports. I 
 was employed by the governor of North Carolina, ami entered into an 
 investigation of those matters long before the people of our State be¬ 
 lieved that such things existed—such things as you saw in the kuklux 
 reports which have been printed by Congress. 
 
 Q. Give us a specimen of one of them ?—A. Well, sir, they hung 
 Wyatt, outlaw, who was a man of sufficient influence to be elected mayor 
 of Alamance. I don’t think they intended to hang him, but to whip 
 him for impudence; but I think they found them out, and Judge Bond 
 made it pretty hot for them. They took Stephens, and garroted him in 
 a room under the court-house. 
 
 Q. What was that done for ?—A. Part of it was said to be done for 
 p< litical reasons, and a part of it for the regulation of society. 
 
 Q. What did they mean by them ?—A. Why, when a negro got too 
 big for his pants they dressed him down a little. 1 will give you an in¬ 
 stance. There was one man from over in a corner of Alamance; they 
 took him out and said he was not polite enough to the ladies he met on 
 the streets ; that he must take off his hat when he met them, and they 
 gave him one hundred to enforce that subject on his mind, and asked 
 
400 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 him if he would remember it, and he told them he never would forget 
 it. 
 
 Q. What class of man was he ?—A. He was a colored man, sorter 
 like this man here. 
 
 Q. Was he known to be a Republican?—A. Yes, sir; all of them 
 were Republicans. 1 only know one instance of an outrage on a Dem¬ 
 ocrat, and this was a personal one. He had been maligning a woman 
 there. They took a gourd-handle, about 1^ inches in diameter, and put 
 a hickory stick through it, and run it up his fundament, and they had 
 to send for a doctor, a long ways off, to get it out with instruments that 
 they use for delivering women of children. 
 
 Q. Do you know any others?—A. They took the Marron boys and 
 carried them away and shot them, and knocked one of the children in 
 the head. It was alleged that that was done on account of barn burn¬ 
 ing that had been going on, and they took these men outaud shot them 
 as a sample of what they would do with the others. 
 
 Q. Was there any trial of the parties that were engaged in that ?—A. 
 Xo, sir; there was no trial in any of those cases. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other?—A. We had an emigrant from Indi¬ 
 ana to our State, named Shoffner, who represented Alamance County in 
 the legislature. He introduced a bill that whenever the governor 
 thought he couldn’t maintain law and order anywhere in the State, lie 
 should declare it in a state of insurrection. It cost Governor Holden 
 his office, and Shoft'uer was prevented from being massacred by acci¬ 
 dent. 
 
 Q. Who were going to massacre him ?—A. The White Brotherhood. 
 There were seveial associations of them. The White Brotherhood, the 
 Invisible Empire, and the Stonewall Guard. It was the last oues who 
 wished to run the Confederacy if they could. The heads of the other 
 two organizations were called chiefs. The clan in one county would 
 decree the death of a man in another county, and send an order to the 
 other county for its execution. That is the way they were able to keep 
 it so secret. They were sent word that they were ready. They had 
 done so in this case, and Shoffner was decreed to die. The messenger 
 went to the wrong chief, who was a friend of Shoffner’s, and he sent 
 dow n for them not to do it, as Shoffner’s wife was about to be confined, 
 and that it would kill her. Shoffner got word of it in time, and he went 
 off to Greensborough, in Indiana, and hasn’t been back since. 
 
 Q. This was a Democratic organization, was it?—A. Yes, sir; I think 
 they were all Democrats. 
 
 Q. And these tilings occurred at the time the change took place from 
 a Republican to a Democratic government?—A. Yes, sir ; I think they 
 had as much to do with it as anything else. I think it made the State 
 Democratic from Holden’s attempt to suppress it. It grew out of an 
 effort to enforce reconstruction. Men got hold of the secret organiza¬ 
 tion and vented their spite on others. 
 
 Q. Those things occurred some six or seven years ago?—A. Yes, sir; 
 and after the locofocos got control of the State, they absolutely stopped. 
 1 called those people locofocos because I don’t believe much in them. 
 
 Senator Blair. These organizations, if I understand you, w 7 ere among 
 the agencies they used in getting back to power ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. Do you think the remembrance of those things still affects the 
 colored people?—A. I think not. I think it is the hope of better things 
 elsewhere that makes them go away. 
 
 Q. What is the effect upon the colored people, and Republicans gen- 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 401 
 
 erally, of this law affecting the election of legislators'?—A. I voted 
 against that amendment because of my opinions favoring universal suf¬ 
 frage, but I think it has done more good in bringing the people together 
 than anything else, especially in the western counties. Left to them¬ 
 selves they are disposed to run an honest government, but in these 
 counties they wasted the public funds, and through other people lost 
 much money by their running away. I think it is right now, though I 
 voted against it, but my conscience didn’t satisfy me iu doing so. It 
 'has enabled them to save their money—but it has done another thing— 
 it has enabled them to pack their returning boards. 
 
 Q. H ow was that ?—A. I see a distinguished member of Congress 
 over there, a Democrat, from a district with 9,000 Republican majority; 
 I think that law has something to do with that. 
 
 Q. How is it used in that way?—A. The magistrates appointed by 
 the returning boards—I don’t know of any district where it has been 
 abused except in Kitehin’s district. It didn’t operate wrong in my 
 own or in yours, Senator (addressiug Senator Vance). 
 
 By Senator Vanoe : 
 
 Q. Wasn’t that result in the second district attributable to the Re¬ 
 publican^ themselves?—A. It may be. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. How about the discrimination in the courts as between the whites 
 and blacks?—A. That is principally in matters of larceny. In such 
 cases the presumption is reversed as to the negro. A white man can’t 
 be convicted without the fullest proof, and with the negroes, in matters 
 between themselves, such as assault and battery, they get as fair a trial 
 as the whites. At the January term of our court Judge Avery presided. 
 A white man and a colored woman were indicted for an affray. The 
 woman was in her husband’s barn getting out corn; they were going to 
 move, and the white man came down there and said, u You seem to have 
 a good time laughing here this morning,” and she said, u Yes, she had 
 a right to laugh.” He said, u You are getting that corn out, and you 
 would have made more if you had stuck to your husband.” She seemed 
 to be a sort of termagant, and she said nobody said that about her un¬ 
 less you told them. He made some insulting remark, aud she made 
 something in return to him, and he took a billet of wood and struck her 
 on the shoulder, and he pulled a pistol and beat her with it,-and she 
 went for him to kill him. They found the man not guilty, and they 
 found her guilty, but Judge Avery set the verdict aside and ordered 
 the case nol prosed against her. 
 
 Q. Do you think that is a fair sample of the justice they get?—A. 
 Y r es, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q Do you think they will convict a colored woman in order to get a 
 chance to turn loose a white man?—A. Yes, sir. These people have 
 been born in slavery, and the white people of course don’t like any im¬ 
 pudence from them. In the matter of larceny it is difficult to acquit 
 them, but I have been a prosecuting officer for many years, and I have 
 seen very few charged with larceny who were not guilty. We don’t 
 have to run round the country down there looking up larceny cases 
 among them. It is harder to convict a moonshiner than it is to acquit 
 a negro of larceny. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. What are these people doing in the penitentiary down there?—A 
 
 26 ex 
 
402 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 They are working upon public improvements. They are not hired out 
 as they are in other States unless they have a trade. I have not heard 
 of any of them complain about their treatment. 
 
 Without concluding the testimony of Mr. Badger the committee, on 
 motion, adjourned to Thursday, February 19, at 10 a. m. 
 
 EIGHTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Thursday , February 19, I860. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment, and proceeded with the 
 taking of testimony. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF B. 0. BADGER RESUMED. 
 
 R. C. Badger recalled to the stand for cross-examination. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Question. Mr. Badger, I wish you would explain to me a little more fully 
 how this change is effected by the constitution in the election o ( f county 
 officers.—Answer. The constitution of 1868 provided for an entire change 
 of government in the judicial and legislative departments, but general offi¬ 
 cers were not subject to legislative control. The counties were con¬ 
 trolled by the people’s vote under what is termed municipal government, 
 consisting of live commissioners, elected once in two years; and the 
 counties were directed to be divided into townships, and three magis¬ 
 trates were directed to be elected by the people in those townships by 
 the popular vote, and in towns one for each ward. Township magis¬ 
 trates were the trustees of the finances of the county, and had in charge 
 the roads and bridges and the assessment of properly for taxes; and 
 the county commissioners had the entire supervision for the whole 
 county, and elected judges of elections. An amendment by the consti¬ 
 tution in 1875 provided that the general assembly should have author¬ 
 ity to take such appointment of such officers from the people and ap¬ 
 point them it elf; and thereupon the general assembly did so. 
 
 Q. Whom did they appoint!—A. They appointed all the magistrates. 
 
 Q. And what did they do ?—A. They would elect the board of com¬ 
 missioners. The magistrates are required to meet once in two years, 
 and elect five of their number, who are practically the legislature of the 
 county. 
 
 Q. What power did those election officers have ?—A. If they act 
 earnestly, they have only to count up the returns ; but they have ab¬ 
 sorbed a great deal of authority. 
 
 Q. vVhat power have they under the law?—A. They have the power 
 to count up the returns, and throw out the balance for any technicality, 
 exactly as Garcelou and Company did in Maine. They have no power, 
 except they usurp it. 
 
 Q. What is the feeling in regard to that change among the Republi¬ 
 cans generally ?—A. There is a good deal of bad feeling about their 
 counting out that colored man in the second district. 
 
 Q. That is the one from which most of these exodusters are traveling? 
 —A. Yes, sir. It may be that the condition of my section of the State 
 is so much better than the general condition of the State that my re¬ 
 marks may be more highly colored than the situation would admit. I 
 think Raleigh and Charleston are the most prospering portions of the 
 State. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 403 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Yon were speaking of the inclination of the colored race to learn. 
 Do you think they are more inclined to acquire education than the 
 white race ?—A. I think so. I think that is the general understanding 
 throughout North Carolina. 
 
 Q. How do you account for it?—A. It is impossible to account for it 
 to my mind. They are a different race of people. You live in a country 
 where there has been a state of freedom; but the result of slavery in 
 the Southern States was this, that it made a race of landholders highly 
 aristocratic, and degraded the poor whites; and the effect of that was 
 to destroy their ambition. They lived on the ridge lauds of the 
 country, and they worked them, but they had hard times. They are 
 Useful in political times and get a vote. They had been in that condi¬ 
 tion for a hundred years up to the end of the war, and it is hard to get 
 them out of the old ruts. I therefore think they are not as ready to 
 learn as the colored people. But the whites, I mean the poorer class, 
 are rapidly improving. 
 
 Q. You think the institution of slavery was injurious to the whole 
 people, white and colored ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in that to account for the avidity of the colored 
 people, now that they are free, .to learn?—A. No, sir; as I stated I do 
 not know how to fully account for that. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is an evidence of superior power or ambition in 
 them?—A. No, sir. I think they are still very inferior to the white 
 race. 
 
 Q. I did notask that. I think this is the question I wished to put. 
 Does it indicate to you that the colored race is possessed of powers for im¬ 
 provement which were not suspected, even by themselves.— A. O, yes. 
 After the war a number of people from the North came down there to 
 teach school, and these people flocked to them at once. 
 
 Bv Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Before the war the negroes were not taught at any time beyond 
 the use of figures ?—A. Yes, sir. While the young ones were growing 
 up we taught all our folks to read and write. 
 
 Q. There is a tendency in the race naturally to improve their status?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And their children since the war have exhibited the same tend¬ 
 ency ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It seems to be born in them ?—A. Yes, sir. I know that old 
 negroes of sixty or seventy years old wanted to go to school. 
 
 Q. And those children born siuce have manifested the same pro¬ 
 clivity ?—A. Yes, sir. One of the great difficulties in the way of the 
 rising of the negro race is the want of classes or of ranks of society. 
 Now they are beginning to have them, and it makes a marked effect on 
 » them. 
 
 Q. To what extent are the colored race as well as the white race pro¬ 
 vided with the means of education in North Carolina ?—A. They are 
 well provided. The great difficulty is the want of teachers. They are 
 well supplied, though, with chances to get the ordinary rudimentspof 
 education. 
 
 Q. And enough of them to be useful to them ?—A. Yes, sir; and their 
 chances are increasing. 
 
 Q. Are these teachers white or colored?—A. The teachers of the col¬ 
 ored schools are generally colored. 
 
 Q. Do they have some white teachers ?—A. Very few. 
 
404 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Are many of the teachers from the North, or are they generally 
 native born ?—A. They are generally from the North, and in the graded 
 schools we had a number of northern teachers teaching; but the great 
 majority of the teachers are natives. In the Shaw Institute they turned 
 over from sixty to seventy teachers a year. 
 
 Q. Did they remain in the State usually?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About what compensation did they get for teaching?—A. I don’t 
 know. 
 
 Q. There are some white teachers in colored schools, you said ?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any prejudice still remaining there against white teachers 
 of colored schools?—A. 1 think there is. 
 
 Q. Will you explain it?—A. I cannot explain it, except by the prej¬ 
 udices between the races. 
 
 Q. You mean, white persons teaching a colored school loses social 
 status?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, awhite lady who comes from the North and teaches a colored 
 school, to what extent is she taboaed ?—A. I don’t think she would 
 have any acquaintances in white society. 
 
 Q. Would she be any quicker invited into white society than a colored 
 woman ?—A. Just about the same. We have been living, you know, 
 with the races who were our slaves; the slaves that we could whip 
 whenever we wanted to, though we did not do it as much as were rep¬ 
 resented. They could not read or write, except to figure a little, and 
 were never allowed to work for themselves. In all respects they are re¬ 
 garded now as a hired class of people, and any association between 
 them and the white class is almost impossible. 
 
 Q. And it is that way still ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that prejudice against white people who are instru¬ 
 ments m raising them to a higher development is lessening?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think ultimately it will disappear?—A. Yes, sir ; one of 
 the things which has operated most against such people was that they 
 are attempting to brave the public opinion by such things as walking 
 up and down the streets with the negroes. I think that has done more 
 harm than anything else. We have old negroes called mammies, who 
 raised up many of the white men, who came into the house over night 
 and staid there. They are still treated with respect and even affection; 
 but there is generally an entire disassociatiou between the two races. 
 
 Q. Mr. Badger, you seem to have studied this question philosophi¬ 
 cally. I would like to ask you what your opinion is as to these socia¬ 
 ble distinctions, whether they are such as will last for all time, or 
 whether by the lapse of time they will disappear?—A. I tliiuk it will 
 be indefinitely prolonged. A great many of the prejudices may be 
 broken down. Our leading politicians seem to work in that direction; 
 among them our Senator from North Carolina, who was a member of 
 this committee. He has attended numbers of their meetings and always 
 seemed to apologize for being there. I saw him once at one of the 
 emancipation meetings. They had a fair also at Raleigh, and our pres¬ 
 ent governor made a bold, outspoken, straightforward speech, stating 
 that he would see that they get all their rights; yet he is trying to be 
 governor again, and on the emancipation day last he made the same 
 sort of speech; being a politician, I was struck with the boldness of it, 
 and 1 think it struck them as it did me. It was much the same as the 
 speech made by the Senator from North Carolina. 
 
 Q. You were about the only white man present on that occasion ?— 
 A. Yes, sir; I was. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 405 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. So it is understood that when Governor Vance and others spoke 
 to them it was for political effect?—A. No, sir; I don’t think so. I 
 think at that time he was trying to get elected to the Senate, and he 
 went and made a speech. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. You said that I made a sort of apology. The apology was to the 
 white people, wasn’t it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. And he thought it was necessary to carry this negro vote ?—- 
 A. No, sir; I think it was made to preserve the Democratic ascendancy. 
 
 Q. You think there are a majority of Republican votes in the State ?— 
 A. I am inclined to doubt that. 
 
 Q. You stated that the change was made in the constitution taking 
 from the people the right to elect their magistrates ?—A. Yes, sir; but 
 that was a direct, bargain and trade by which it was understood and 
 agreed, but not put down on the paper, that the eastern people would 
 aid in putting forward the West North Carolina Railroad, and in return 
 to have from the legislature the selection of their magistrates. 
 
 Q. Why did the people want the change made?—A. On account of 
 the corruption of their county authorities. 
 
 Q. So you think those people are unable to exercise the right of 
 suffrage properly ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator VANCE : 
 
 Q. Not all of them, Mr. Badger ?—A. No, sir 5 I don’t say that; and 
 then it is only the magistrates who are elected by the general assem¬ 
 bly. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. And other officers are merely executive, such as sheriff, county 
 trustee, clerks, and others ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are elected by the people ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is what gives to the illiterate the idea of voting for their 
 officers?—A. Yes, sir; but l think the system gives them better officers 
 than the old ones. 
 
 Q. Then it comes to this : that it is better that these people should 
 not be governed by themselves ?—A. I think experience has proven it. 
 You take the counties of Halifax or Clayton, and their county treas¬ 
 uries have been depleted and utterly wasted, and every species of robbery 
 that could be committed had been carried on until they are now in a 
 state of prostration financially. This is the result of the old form of 
 government. In Edgecomb and Warren they could have gone forward 
 and controlled them, and if the white people had awakened to their 
 duty, instead of turning them over to adventurers from the North. The 
 change in the government was required by the desertion of the respecta¬ 
 ble white Republicans from these people. 
 
 Q. You think the change is due to those corruptions?—A. Yes, sir; 
 in a great part. I kept our county right, with the exception of our 
 sheriff, who stole $90,000 ; but we couldn’t help it. 
 
 Q. That was the effect of what ? I mean this changed condition of 
 affairs and this general corruption in office—what caused it?—A. It 
 grew out of the attempt to enforce reconstruction. 
 
 Q. That was the effect of the war ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did the war grow out of ?—x\. The war grew out of the fact 
 that you had in the Presidential chair an old Locofaco. 
 
406 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Who was that?—A. James Buchanan. 
 
 Q. The war came, and slavery was abolished; and that resulted in 
 the demoralization of your society- 
 
 The Witness. I would like to answer that part of the question. 
 
 Senator Blair. I am asking the question. 
 
 The Chairman. I insist that he has a right to answer the question in 
 all its parts. 
 
 Senator Blair. I protest against it until I finish my question. 
 
 The Chairman. I insist that he has a right to answer the question in 
 such a way as to make his answer satisfactory and intelligible, and if 
 you insist upon your protest, we clear this room and decide whether he 
 has a right to answer or not. 
 
 Senator Blair. 1 was asking the question, and he began to answer 
 before I finished. I made no remark to call for his interruption ; and I 
 expected to put a proper question. I think the chairman lias no right 
 to interrupt me in the manner in which he has done. 
 
 The Chairman. Your question culminated in this: that the war 
 came and slavery abolished, and society in the South demoralized ; and 
 at this point the witness desired to answer that full question; aud I 
 think he has a right to answer it, and I think so still. 
 
 Senator Blair. I state that the witness had previously said, that the 
 condition of things in the State grew out of enforced reconstruction, aud 
 even weut back to the days of James Buchanan, as the cause of the 
 war. I said that the war came, and slavery was abolished ; and society 
 was demoralized as the result. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state what your objection is ? 
 
 Senator Blair. Let me state it. I wished him to understand my 
 question, and after he answers it, lie can make auy explanation he 
 pleases. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the right of the witness to answer the question 
 in the way in which he desires to go on record. That was the reason 
 why I interposed ; not desiring to throw any obstacle in the way of in¬ 
 vestigation. 
 
 Senator Blair. I acquit the chairman of any such object. I claim 
 no perfection as a practitioner in this investigation, but I say I have the 
 right to ask the witness the question. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. I say, Mr. Badger, this demoralization having come through the 
 South, wasn’t this reconstruction a necessity ? —A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Now, will you allow me to say one thing'? In that question there 
 was an assumption that the demoralization came with the war and the 
 abolishing of slavery, but the demoralization grew as much out of the 
 fact that the Southern people were in a state of siege for four years. 
 They were utterly demoralized before the abolishing of slavery and the 
 results of the war had been accomplished. Now, I want to call your 
 attention to the initial point of my inquiry; that is, where the blamefor 
 these evils rests. If the white people, at the close of the war, had 
 chosen to exercise their rights, and sought, as you say they now do, 
 to live in harmony with the colored people, would not these evils of 
 enforced reconstruction have disappeared, or never appeared at all 1 — 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Then the fact is that the reason the carpet-bagger came and pos¬ 
 sessed the negro vote and controlled the destinies of North Carolina and 
 other Southern States, was because the white people refused to exer¬ 
 cise their rights and influence ?—A. That is a very long question ; please 
 state it again. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 407 
 
 Q. i say the fact is that the carpet-bagger gained his ascendancy in 
 the South, through the negro vote, simply because the white people at 
 first refused to exercise their rights and influence?—A. I think so. If 
 Congress in 18GG had seen fit in its wisdom to seat the Senators and 
 Representatives elected under the Johnson reconstruction, there would 
 have been no difficulty. That is one of the reasons why I think the 
 national government had to take charge and enforce reconstruction. 
 
 Q. And has there been any time when the Southern white man has 
 not had the civil rights and right of suffrage which he now enjoys ?—A. 
 Only as restricted by the exceptions put into the proclamation of An¬ 
 drew Johnson ; that is, he excepted anybody who had been in the serv¬ 
 ice of the Confederate States and those who had been worth over 
 $20,000. 
 
 Q. That did not last long?—A. No, sir; he afterwards pardoned the 
 most of them. 
 
 Q. Has there been any time since when they did not have all their 
 rights ?—A. No, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. If the white people had from the first exercised their rights and 
 accepted the situation, do you think any such things would have resulted 
 as the Kuklux ?—A. I think it grew out of a system of brigandage such 
 as follows all wars like the one we had. I think one-half of it was bri¬ 
 gandage. If you will look at it carefully, you will find it had no ap¬ 
 proval among the masses of our people. During the war all our 
 able-bodied population went to war, but the negroes were left at home 
 and remained faithful as the docile animal that he is. And when the 
 war ended with us, but for Sherman issuing rations to the people we 
 would have been the same as Ireland is now to-day. 
 
 Q. Who were these Kuklux organizations composed of?—A. Of 
 Democrats. 
 
 Q. Were they confined to the Democratic party I—A. Yes, sir; I 
 think they were, although it was alleged in the papers and stated by 
 the late Governor Graham, in his speech on the impeachment of Gov¬ 
 ernor Holden, that there was a negro Kuklux clan in the county of 
 Graham. 
 
 Q. Do you have occasion as a lawyer to know the operations of the 
 landlord and tenant act in North Carolina?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of it ?—A. Well, sir, the effect of it is, in my 
 opinion, to enable the colored and poor people of the State to cultivate 
 land. We have a homestead exemption of $1,000 in land (which means 
 about $2,000) and $500 of personal property. That exemption has taken 
 away about all of the credit of the poorer class of people, and the landlord 
 and tenant act was desigued to give the landlord a hold on the tenant for 
 his rent. It operates well, although it is sometimes abused. 
 
 Q. You speak of its being abused—how?—A. Our landlord and tenant 
 act virtually vests the whole possession of the crop in the landlord, and if 
 he is a bad man it makes him an autocrat and places extraordinary power 
 in his hands. But that is an evil that grows out of the condition of things 
 there. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. \ r ou think, generally speaking, it is beneficial in its operations '?—A. 
 AYs, sir; Ido. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Where abused it makes it practically impossible for a tenant to 
 accumulate anything?—A. Yes, sir; but let me explain. The crop in 
 our country is different from any crop you raise in your country. The 
 
408 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 cotton crop is eminently a labor crop from the planting to the picking 
 In the mean time the tenant has to have supplies, implements, manures? 
 &c. The trouble with him usually is that he caunot get the first pick¬ 
 ings to sell in order to hire help to assist him in picking out the balance 
 of the crop. There is where the tenant is entirely in the hands of the 
 landlord. 
 
 Q. What proportion of colored men are owners of real estate ?—A. 
 A very limited number. 
 
 Q. One in twenty?—A. I could not say, for I do not know. 
 
 Q. Is there one in one hundred ?—A. I would not wish to testify to 
 that, because I know it is a very limited number. 
 
 Q. I have reference to heads of families.—A. I think there are very 
 few of them who own land; a very limited number. I think in this 
 country from which these people are exodusting there are fewer land¬ 
 lords than in my country. I think in my part of the country they are 
 improving in that regard. That improvidence for which colored men 
 have been proverbial is passing away. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You have stated that you thought when you had an educated class 
 of colored people many of these race distinctions would pass away ?—A. 
 Yes,, sir. 
 
 Q. My own theory has been that the cause of these political disturb¬ 
 ances in the South, and class distinctions, was the fact that in numbers 
 of districts there are a majority of colored people.—A. I think a great 
 deal of it grows out of that fact. 
 
 ■ Q. Do you notthiuk if there could be a well ordered, voluntary distri¬ 
 bution of these colored people these sectional questions and differences 
 would be mitigated ?—A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you not, therefore, think that if it could be directed properly 
 and rightly, an exodus of them to other States would have a good effect 
 on them ?—A. It would have a good effect on the white people in the 
 South, but it would be a horrible thing on the colored people. 
 
 Q. I mean for them to emigrate to some State where they can live : 
 not to Indiana, where they do not seem to be well received ? —A. If you 
 have a country ready where you can take them and settle them it would 
 be a good thing. 
 
 Q. I do not mean to take them there, for I do not believe myself that 
 the government has a right to take them anywhere.—A. But I think, 
 Mr. Senator, humanity requires that you leave them where they are. 
 If the progress of good feeling among them is not disturbed there will 
 soon be thorough amity between the two races ; there will not be social 
 freedom, but they will have amity between them. 
 
 Q. Do not you think the progress of which you speak is greater in 
 North Carolina than it has been in some other Southern States?—A. I 
 think it is better in North Carolina than in any other Southern State. 
 I have been in Florida and South Carolina, and know it is better than 
 in either of them. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Judge Tourgee ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you read his book, “The Fool’s Errand”?—A. No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. I want to ask you in relation to these white teachers going down 
 there, and not being received into the best society. Don’t you know 
 that after the war the white teachers who went down there put up with 
 the negroes, and lived with them, and thereby created a prejudice 
 against themselves ?—A. A great many of them did; but I know many 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 409 
 
 of them who might well be entitled to reception in high society. They 
 are a fanatical people, it is true. They are people who went there to 
 take charge of the ignorant people and educate them, and they made 
 the mistake by seeming to ignore the feelings of the white class of our 
 people. At that time, however, they would have been ignored, I think, 
 if they had not done so, but I know three particular in the normal school 
 in Raleigh who might well be received into the best society. 
 
 Q., Do you know a gentleman there named Sneed?—A. Yes, sir; he 
 teaches there. 
 
 Q. And he is received in the best society, is he not?—A. Yes, sir; 
 he is. 
 
 Q. You made one remark which, I think, is calculated to do our peo¬ 
 ple injustice. You stated, I think, that no poor man had a chance to 
 rise there?—A. I meant to say he had a very limited chance, but that 
 does not apply to your part of the country, Senator. 
 
 Q. You don’t mean to say that there is anything there that prevents 
 any man from rising who has talents and merits?—A. I said it was 
 almost impossible for them to do so. They can’t compete with the ne¬ 
 gro as laborers, and they have very little chance to rise from that 
 capacity. 
 
 Q. You don’t mean that if a poor boy could get an education he would 
 not have a chance to rise?—x\. No, sir; I know many of them who did 
 get an education and rose in the world ; but I mean as a class they 
 can’t rise; he will be kept as their fathers were, as the poorer class of 
 our society. 
 
 Q. You said, yesterday, I believe, that the principal agent in putting 
 the State under the control of the Democratic party was the Kuklux? 
 —A. No, sir; I said it was one of the agencies, and I would like to say 
 here that the operation of Governor Holden in trying to put down the 
 Kuklux by the military, under the Shaffner act, caused a revolution of 
 sentiment, and made the State Democratic, and the passage of the 
 act of Congress called the civil rights act, with the hotel rights and all 
 that in which, had a good deal with it. 
 
 Q. Didn’t the spoliation of the State treasury in 1868 have something 
 to do with it ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of brigandage system there?—A. Yes, sir; but I didn’t 
 mean that these people went around and stole anything, but they went 
 about cutting up, whipping and slashing any one against whom they 
 had any spite. I adhered to that term of brigandage. I went for them 
 whenever I had a chance, and denounced them as robbers and theives, 
 and all that. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if a man who participated in those transactions 
 didn’t allege as the cause a great many outrages on the other side, 
 such as barn burning and outrages on women by the negroes?—A. 
 Yes, sir; I think so; there was such charges made on both sides. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You say the colored people are rapidly improving?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Still you say the social distinctions between the races will always 
 remain?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. I want to ask you what, in your opinion, is the prospect of peace 
 between these two races, when each shall have attained a higher condi¬ 
 tion of development. Do you think there will be peace and amity be¬ 
 tween them ?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. With this same social distinction remaining?—A. Yes, sir; and 
 just here I would remark that the negroes are increasing much more in 
 
410 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 proportion than the whites. There are no old maids among the colored 
 people, and this result will be shown by the census 1880. It will show 
 a very rapid advance in the population of the colored people. If you 
 would put four hundred thousand colored people and six hundred thou¬ 
 sand white people, and keep them for four generations, there would be 
 more negroes at the end of the time than whites. They begin to bear 
 at sixteen years of age, and generally have from eight to ten children. 
 It is a mistake to think that they are dying more rapidly now than ever 
 before. It you will take the next census you will see it for yourself. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Aside from any question of races, Mr. Badger, is it not better for 
 all parties that this distinction socially should be kept up between the 
 races ?—A. Yes, sir; 1 think it better for both races; both of them will 
 be all the better off for it. As to the negroes’ health, the only branch of 
 the colored race that is not healthy is the quadroon. From the quad¬ 
 roon and up to the octoroon, they, I think, are a very unhealthy race of 
 people, and a few people of our section in the country who have con¬ 
 sumption are mulattoes. They will not mix with each other, but should 
 not do so, because it kills out the race. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF J. B. MAYNARD. 
 
 J. B. Maynard sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Maynard ?—Answer. Indianapo¬ 
 lis, Indiana, sir. 
 
 Q. What is youi occupation ?—A. Journalism. 
 
 Q. What paper are you employed editorially upon ?—A. The Indian¬ 
 apolis Sentinel. 
 
 Q. State whether your attention has been called to the immigration of 
 colored people from the South to our State.—A. It has. 
 
 Q. State whether you have interested yourself in the subject.—A. 
 Somewhat, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether you have conversed with any of these folks.—A. I 
 have, to some extent. 
 
 Q. How many, do you suppose?—A. Some six or eight. 
 
 Q. Men or women?—A. Men, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you meet them ?—A. I met them at different places. 
 
 Q. In and about Indianapolis ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You may state to this committee briefly, but in your own way, 
 their general condition out there, the promises which they say induced 
 them to come there, and whether they found those promises to be true 
 or false.—A. 1 think, sir, that with all with whom I talked on the prop¬ 
 osition you state there was a very general agreement. They said they 
 were induced to leave North Carolina and come to Indiana on account 
 of representations that their condition in Indiana would be greatly im¬ 
 proved; first, because they would receive much larger wages, and 
 second, because they would have pleasant homes, as they could have 
 lands cheap, with long time to pay for them ; and therefore their situa¬ 
 tion would be greatly improved. 
 
 Q. How about the wages they were to get?—A. The general state¬ 
 ment was that they were to ges from $13 to $3 per day. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 411 
 
 Q. How about monthly wages !—A. I do not remember what the 
 monthly wages were stated at. Perhaps, as to women in houses, they 
 were to be from $15 to $25 per month. 
 
 Q. How did they say they had found things to be in Indiana !—A. 
 They said they had found every representation to be false, without ex¬ 
 ception. They found neither a demand for labor, nor wages, nor homes, 
 nor cows, nor lauds, nor anything else that was promised. 
 
 Q. What were their dispositions on the subject of returning home!— 
 A. Everyone I saw was desirous of returning home, where he said their 
 condition was better than anything they had seen in Indiana. One 
 man, who had been there five weeks, said lie had only been able to 
 earn eight dollars. A number have been there a long time and had 
 nothing to do. Some of them said if things did not improve soon they 
 would be thrown on the county for charity and support. In fact, they 
 have found the situation very bad out there. 
 
 Q. Have you informed yourself, Colonel Maynard, as to the condition 
 of a good many of these folks who are in Indianapolis—whether they 
 have been employed and are self-sustaining, or are the objects of pub¬ 
 lic charity !—A. I think the work of relieving them by public charity 
 had begun before I left, and application had been made to the township 
 trustee for assistance, and it had been granted—to what extent I know 
 not—but to some extent I am positive. 
 
 Q. From your observation of the newspaper press there up to this 
 time, state whether there is a standing appeal for charity for these folks 
 published in the papers.—A. I think that is true, not only in our State 
 but in other States to which these people have emigrated. I speak of 
 th ose with whom I conversed, and they were destitute of all means, 
 even of helping themselves by work, however willing to do work. 
 
 Q. There is no opposition in our State to immigrants coming there 
 who can support themselves, or for whom labor can be had !—A. No, 
 sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. The objection is to the coming of a pauper population !—A. I think 
 that is true. 
 
 Q. Have you familiarized yourself sufficiently with the labor question 
 out there to say whether we have more labor than is in demand or not! 
 —A. My attention has been specially called to that question for the last 
 four years, and I have often discussed it from various standpoints. I am 
 familiar with the press of the State, daily and weekly, and I have not no¬ 
 ticed in any of them any call for labor, either from the farming districts or 
 any other part of the country. My observation is to the effect that there 
 has been a surplus of labor in the State. There is a standing appeal 
 from thousands of good, industrious men lor employment at any wages 
 at all. Some of these have come to my knowledge and attracted my at¬ 
 tention, among them being mechanics who formerly earned from two 
 dollars to three dollars per day, and who to-day are willing to engage 
 in any labor at almost any price, and cannot get employment at all. 
 
 Q. State if, in your writings as a journalist, you have sought to reflect 
 public sentiment in Indiana upon the subject of this exodus !—A. I 
 have, sir. 
 
 ^ Q. Do you know of any Republican paper that has pointed out the 
 evils of this exodus, and the suffering the people undergo who engage 
 in it !—A. Not one, sir. 
 
 Q._jThey rather smile and wink at it!—A. It looks so. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. What are the politics of the Ledger!—A. It does not occur to me 
 what its politics are. 
 
412 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of tickets having been bought recently to 
 bring Irish immigrants to Indiana?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon have never been a farmer yourself?—A. Yes, sir; I have been. 
 
 Q. When, if you please?—A. When I was a young man, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you were on a farm in Indiana?—A. I never 
 worked on one in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Were you ever on a farm in Indiana?—A. I never worked on one 
 there. 
 
 Q. Have you consulted with any of the farmers about the demand for 
 farm laborers ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. How many have you consulted?—A. Up to what time do you re¬ 
 fer me, if you please ? 
 
 Q. Within the last three months?—A. I think probably a dozen, and 
 I have met gentlemen from different parts of the State, and my atten¬ 
 tion has been called to the subject by conversing with them. I am sat¬ 
 isfied these people are not in demand out there. The supply of native 
 labor is even far in excess of the demand in the best seasons. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W T . 0. CHASE. 
 
 W. C. Chase, colored, sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. 1109 I street, northwest. 
 
 Q. Where are you from ?—A. I was born here. 
 
 Q. Have you lived here all your life?—A. I lived here all the time. 
 
 Q. What did you ever have to do with the Emigration Aid Society, 
 and what propositions did they ever make to you?—A. In the first 
 society that was organized I was the corresponding secretary, and was 
 also the correspondent of the Boston Observer. Mr. Carshon was after¬ 
 wards made secretary, and Mr. Wall was made chairman ; but as ho 
 could not control the society he withdrew and organized another. The 
 presumption of the people of the District was, that he organized it to 
 speculate with, and they didn’t join readily. Several months ago I met 
 Mr. Wall on Seventh street, and he said he had some emigrants coming 
 from North Carolina with Perry, and he wanted me to take the agency 
 of the society. He said ho would pay me, and I went to his office but 
 didn’t find him. I went to the office and saw Adams, and he said he 
 didn’t know where Wall was. I didn’t see him any more until a meet¬ 
 ing was called to denounce this whole scheme. Wall is so well known, 
 that we knew his only object was to speculate on the ignorant people of 
 the South. A resolution was introduced in the Senate by Senator 
 Dorsey, and I sent this correspondence to the Boston Observer about it. 
 The following is the correspondence (reading): 
 
 “Senator Dorsey presented a memorial signed by three hundred colored 
 citizens of the District of Columbia West Emigration Society, asking 
 for seventy-five thousand dollars as a loan, to enable them to emigrate 
 to the unoccupied lands in the West.” 
 
 Q. Is that all?—A. Yes, sir. 1 met Mr. Wall on Seventh street, and 
 he asked me to take a place for a dollar a day ; but I didn’t do it, be¬ 
 cause the people in the District have no confidence in him. 
 
 Q. In what way were you to make a dollar a day?—A. By assisting 
 him in this scheme. 
 
 Q. In what wmy ?—A. I presume he wanted me to go to North Caro¬ 
 lina, like Perry and Williams. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 413 
 
 Q. Did he speak to you of them?—A. Yes, sir. lie said they had 
 been into North Carolina, and were coming back. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what they were making ?—A. No, sir. Afterwards 
 we called a meeting of citizens to denounce this scheme. A meeting 
 was held at the corner of Eleventh and I streets, and I was elected 
 secretary ot the meeting. 
 
 Q. Then you didn’t approve of this movement?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think is the general opinion among the more intelli¬ 
 gent people of your race ?—A. The general sentiment is that they con¬ 
 sider it a scheme of a speculative character, and detrimental to the in¬ 
 terest of the colored people. 
 
 By Senator Windom : 
 
 Q. You say that you know Mr. Wall was designing to speculate off 
 the ignorance of the colored people ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you know it?—A. I have known him for five or six years, 
 and I know he never enters into anything except he makes something 
 out of it. 
 
 Q. You say he is a man in bad standing with the people?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You say he had Perry and Williams engaged?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you know that ?—A. He said he expected them to come 
 from North Carolina with some emigrants aud he said he had two or 
 three men engaged there. 
 
 Q. Give his language as near as you can.—A. He said, “ Mr. Chase, my 
 son Stevey tells me that you will assist in anything I ask, and said you 
 are a friend of his.” I said, u Yes ”; and he said, “ I have got some men 
 coming from North Carolina, and with them is a man named Perry, whom I 
 have engaged,” and said to me, “I would make you president of the West¬ 
 ern Emigrant Aid Society, but you are a single man.” He said, “Come to 
 my office and I will show you my plan.” I went to see him as I stated. I saw 
 Mr. Otey, who said that the reason he resigned from the association was 
 that the assertion was made in a meeting that they were to send so many 
 negroes to Indiana and so many to other States in order to vote them, 
 and for that reason he resigned. 
 
 Q. You think that Wall is a very dishonest man?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Haven’t you been convicted of larceny at any time ?—A. Yes, sir, 
 but unjustly; so I will state the circumstances, that you may see. I 
 lived on I street, and my mother rents a store to a man named Nichols 
 fora shoe store, and a man came along and got his shoes mended. I 
 came down, and he said, “Don’tyou stay there, and were you not present 
 when this man promised to pay me one dollar and a quarter, and I said 
 “Yes”; and I said to him to take the shoes back; he took them and I went 
 to Harper’s Ferry. When I came back there was a warrant out for me, 
 and I went to Judge Bundy. He was a Democratic judge, and said to 
 mo that I was unjustly convicted, and I got a certiorari, and it is there 
 now. 
 
 Q. You paid the fine though, didn’t you ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much was it ?—A. Ten dollars. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 */ 
 
 Q. You were secretary of that first organization ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were you organizing to send emigrants ?—A. We were or¬ 
 ganizing to send helpless colored people of this city to Kansas. It was 
 for the poor people of this city and not those from other States. I be¬ 
 lieve the exodus of the colored people who are unemployed here to the 
 unoccupied land of the West would be a good thing; but I don’t think 
 
414 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 the exodus of the colored people to Indiana and other States would be a 
 good thing. I think they do better in North Carolina than in Indiana. 
 
 Q. You think emigration to the proper places would be beneficial ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did you enter the society ?—A. Because our idea was to send 
 them from this city to Kansas and the West; because they are paupers 
 here and have no vote here; and in the South they have to take care of 
 themselves. It is the carpet bag element among the negroes that 
 makes this state of affairs in the District.of Columbia, and requires 
 the assistance of the government. They are the people that we have 
 to do with. 
 
 Q. You said that Captain Wall originated the scheme for speculation ? 
 —A. Yes, sir. So I say, and I stick to it, and I take in the ex-Governor 
 Gleaves, who is in the Treasury, and I think he is the man who helped 
 him. 
 
 Q. Are you engaged in any emigrant’s society now ?—A. I am out 
 of it. 
 
 By Senator Vance : 
 
 Q. Don’t the colored people vote in this city ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not ?—A. They took the right away from them. 
 
 Q. Who took it away ?—A. The government. 
 
 Q. Under whose administration ?—A. Under a .Republican form of 
 government. 
 
 Q. How long has it been since that was done ?—A. It was during 
 President Grant’s administration. 
 
 Q. I can hardly think that is so.—A. I know it was during a Repub¬ 
 lican administration, and I think it was President Grant’s. 
 
 Q. What are your politics?—A. 1 am a Republican, sir. 
 
 By Senator Windom: 
 
 Q. Do white men vote in this District?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any discrimination made against colored men in that re¬ 
 spect?—A. No, sir. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned to 10 o’clock a. m., Monday, Feb¬ 
 ruary the 23d, 1880. 
 
 NINETEENTH DAY. 
 
 Washington, Monday , February 23, 1870. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment and proceeded with the 
 taking of testimony. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF G. W. KRUZAN. 
 
 G. W T . Kruzan sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State where you live ?—Answer. In Vigo County, Indiana. 
 Q. How far from Terre Haute ?—A. Five miles from Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. What is your business ?—A. I am engaged in farming. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there?—A. All my lifetime ; I was born 
 and raised there. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 415 
 
 Q. Have you followed farming all your life ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has your attention been called to the introduction of colored peo¬ 
 ple into our county recently ?—A. Somewhat, sir. We have some in 
 our neighborhood. 
 
 Q. You may state whether, in your opinion, there is any demand for 
 labor of this kind iu your county.—A. I think not, sir. We have al¬ 
 ways been able to get all the labor we wanted, and at very reasonable 
 rates. 
 
 Q. Is there much hiring done now by the farmers in that section ?—* 
 A. No, sir ; not through the winter mouths ; then there is scarcely any¬ 
 thing done. I hire always during the season until the crop is gathered, 
 but none after then. 
 
 Q. There is more hiring done through the season than in the winter? 
 —A. There is scarcely any done through the winter time. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say some of these negroes have been brought into your neigh¬ 
 borhood ?—A. Yes, sir ; there is one family in a mile of my place and 
 two colored men are hired near there. * 
 
 Q. Has that family been employed since its coming?—A. Ido not 
 know, sir; they work part of the time, I think. 
 
 Q. Whose place are they on ?—A. McFeeters’s place. One of these 
 other men gets eight dollars per month when he works, but I do not 
 think he works all tbe time. He says it is too cold out there for these 
 Carolina men. The man for whom he works says he does not know 
 much about working; that he does not understand our way of working 
 with machinery and never saw it before. 
 
 Q. The most of your farming, the putting in and all that, is done by 
 machinery?—A. Y~es, sir; and the tending, too. We use double culti¬ 
 vators, and they never saw any of them before. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether there has been a great many peo¬ 
 ple for some years past seeking employment in our county, and who 
 could not get it?—A. There have been a good many who came through 
 there in the winter months. I know some who are working for their 
 board. They are men who live there—white men. • 
 
 Q. What do the farmers generally pay for farm labor during the crop 
 season ?—A. From $13 to $18, according to the hand, and board, f ^ 
 
 Q. How much by the day, with board ?—A. The farmers hardly ever 
 hire them that way, unless they get behind with their work. Some¬ 
 times then they pay seventy-five cents and a dollar a day. In harvest 
 time they pay as high as a dollar and a half. That is what was paid 
 last year, with board. 
 
 Q From your long experience there do you think it desirable for col¬ 
 ored emigrants, or anybody else dependent alone upon daily labor, to 
 come and settle there?—A. I think it is not, sir. 
 
 Q. There is quite a population of old settlers there in that county; 
 I mean colored people?—A. Y r es, sir; There are a good many such. 
 Up above Terre Haute there is a place three miles square, all of them 
 colored settlers, it is called Lost Creek, and also Otter Creek. I was 
 born in Otter Creek township. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the old colored settlers regard these new-com¬ 
 ers ?—A. They do not like it, I understood. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of these emigrants arriving there?—A. I have 
 never been to the church in Terre Haute where they quartered them. 
 
 Q. So you are of the opinion that even in cropping time these peo¬ 
 ple will not be jn demand, because they do not understand our system 
 of farming?—A. Yes, sir; it is my opinion that they will not suit us, 
 from what I learn from the men who hire them. 
 
416 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see tlie circular put forth by Walker to help on the 
 exodus'?—A. No, sir; I do not remember ever to have seen it. 
 
 Q. Stating that he had a demand for eighteen hundred families?—A. 
 No, sir; I do not recollect it. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. How many of these colored men from North Carolina have you 
 seen?—A. Ido not know how many. I have seen several, but how 
 many I could not state. 
 
 Q. You know of only three who are located in your vicinity 1 ?—A. 
 There are one family and two men. One of the men is hired out, and 
 he was to get eight dollars a month when he worked. 
 
 Q. They are all simply getting along as best they can until the crop 
 season opens?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you talked much with them?—A. Only with those three, in 
 particular, and that very little. 
 
 Q. Your intercourse with them has been very limited ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a colored settlement; how near is it to you?—A. 
 Nine miles, about. 
 
 Q. But you have lived near to it?—A. I was born near there. I lived 
 about three-quarters of a mile from it. I do not think a white person 
 has lived in the settlement. They are all colored, and some of them are 
 very tine gentlemen. 
 
 Q. IIow many are there in this settlement of colored peoples?—A. I 
 do not know how many. 
 
 Q. Several hundred, would you suppose, for an estimate?—A. Yes, 
 sir, several hundred; but J do not know exactly the number. 
 
 Q. Perhaps you could fix it somewhere between four, five, and six 
 hundred ?—A. I would think there were three hundred in the popula¬ 
 tion in that settlement. 
 
 The Chairman. Y r ou might estimate it by the votes. We have in 
 our county about four hundred colored votes. Four hundred votes 
 would represent about two thousand colored people, and the majority 
 of them live in town. I should say out in Lost Creek Township about 
 five hundred would be enough to establish the population. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. You think there are five hundred out there?—A. Y r es, sir; be¬ 
 tween five and six hundred. 
 
 Q. About how many acres or square miles are they scattered over ?— 
 A. They have three square miles, or rather three miles square. 
 
 Q. Then that would be nine square miles?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they all farmers?—A. Yes, sir; mostly all farmers. 
 
 Q. What is the name of the township ?—A. Lost Creek and Otter 
 Township. 
 
 Q. It is not au incorporated township, is it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the general condition of that colony of colored people?— 
 A. It is a pretty well colony. 
 
 Q. How long have they lived there?—A. Since lean recollect. 
 
 Q. Have more or less been there since the settlement of the State ?— 
 A. 1 don’t recollect. 
 
 Q. Have they always been pretty well off?—A. They were not so 
 much so at the start, but they have been buying out the whites until 
 they own the whole of it. 
 
 Q. They have been gradually excluding them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. II as the colony been increasing in wealth and population ?—A. 
 Y r es, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 417 
 
 Q. Has it doubled itself ?—A. Yes, sir ; and more than that in wealth. 
 
 Q. Has it more than doubled in population?—A. Since I can recol¬ 
 lect ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They have stores and other things out there?—A. No, sir; they 
 go to Terre Haute to trade. 
 
 Q. How far is that?—A. Five miles. 
 
 Q. Do they carry their produce there?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they schools out there?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of their schools ?—A. I think they have good 
 schools. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much of the year they have them ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. About the same as the rest of the county?—A. Yes, sir; I think 
 so ; about the same. 
 
 Q. What is the length of the school period generally ?—A. Some of 
 the towmships have more schools than the others; they run from five to 
 nine months. 
 
 Q. The average would be seven months ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they any religious privileges such as churches and pastors ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; they have their own churches. 
 
 Q. What denominations are they?—A. They are Baptist and Metho¬ 
 dist, principally. 
 
 Q. Do they have separate houses of worship ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen them ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do they compare with the white churches ?—A. They are not 
 so good, but still they are good churches. 
 
 Q. How as to the wealth among them; do many own their own farms? 
 —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, the head of the family ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do they compare as farmers with the white people ?—A. Some 
 of them are as good as the wdiite people’s. 
 
 Q. About how wealthy is the wealthiest colored man in that commu¬ 
 nity ?—A. I can’t tell; some of them I should think are worth twenty- 
 five or thirty thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Take one who is best off, or as well off as any of them; what is the 
 name of that man ?—A. I should suppose it was Dickson Stuart. 
 
 Q. Tell us about him.—A. I am not so well acquainted with him, and 
 I think probably he is dead now. 
 
 Q. How old was he ?—A. He was about sixty years old. 
 
 Q. He was a farmer also ?—A. Yes, sir; he had a very large farm, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. About how many acres?—A. I couldn’t tell that because I don’t 
 know. 
 
 Q. Was it a valuable farm?—A. Yes, sir; it was worth a good deal 
 of money; I disremember what it was worth, but he paid about as large 
 taxes as anybody in the township. 
 
 Q. White or colored ?—A. Yes, sir ; but I disremember how much it 
 was. 
 
 Q. You know anything about his stock ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wh at w T ere the products of his farm ?—A. Mostly wheat, corn, and 
 
 hay. 
 
 Q. Did you find a market for it in the Western States ?—A. We have 
 as good a market, right there, as anywhere. 
 
 Q. What do you get for corn?—A. We got forty cents last year. 
 
 Q. Is that the average price ?—A. It is sometimes more and some¬ 
 times less. 
 
 27 EX 
 
418 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Do you sell your wheat there!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much do you get for wheat?—A. This year we averaged 
 ninety cents. 
 
 Q. How much help would he require ou his farm ?—A. I don’t know, 
 sir; I can only tell you as to the wealth among the negroes. It has 
 been two years since I moved away, but I live iu about nine miles off 
 there now. 
 
 Q. Is this colored community about as well off' as the white com¬ 
 munities?—A. Some of them are well off and some are not. They are 
 about the same as the white, generally. 
 
 Q. Taking that community and making them white folks, with no 
 race distinction, wouldn’t you say they are about as well off as any of 
 the white communities?—A. Yes, sir. But they are opposed to these 
 negroes coming there now. 
 
 Q. I ask you on the whole, disregarding the fact that they are 
 colored people, are not they about as well off as any white communities 
 in the State equally situated!—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say, as a class, they are opposed to the exodus !—A. I 
 heard so. 
 
 Q. You don’t know where those people came from originally ?—A. 
 No, sir ; I don’t. 
 
 Q. No doubt that they drifted in from the South ?—A. I don’t know, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that they are the same race as the blacks of the 
 South ?—A. There is no doubt that they are the same race. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that if these negroes were coming there now, 
 were subjected to the same influence for two or three generations as this 
 community of which you speak, they would come out in the same way ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; it would take two or three generations to do it, though. 
 
 Q. You and I understand that the transmission must be gradually ; 
 but to what do you attribute the difference between these negroes who 
 are there and those who are coming from North Carolina ?—A. The 
 difference is in their raising. 
 
 Q. Under the different institutions of the two States?—A. Yes, sir; 
 it is the difference in the way in which they have been brought up. 
 
 Q. You think the climate is better in the South than in Indiana ?—A. 
 So they say. I have never been there in the South. 
 
 Q. And that is what everybody says ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So against the disadvantages of the climate these people in that 
 colony up there have done better than those who remained in the South ? 
 —A. Yes, sir; in the South they have been in slavery, and never had 
 the advantages of these colored people up there. 
 
 Q. The fact is that way then?—A. Yes, sir; they had these advan¬ 
 tages and have improved under it. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF S. W. KIGNEY. 
 
 S. W. Bigney, sworn and examined as follows: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. I live live miles and a 
 half south of Terre Haute, iu Vigo County, Indiana. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there?—A. Between two and three 
 years. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 419 
 
 Q. And before that ?—A. Then I lived in Orange County, Southern 
 Indiana. I was born and raised there. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I try to farm. 
 
 Q. Hdw long have you been a farmer?—A. All my life. I was born 
 and raised on a farm, and have been following it all my life. 
 
 Q. Do you hire farm laborers to assist you ?—A. I hire men all the 
 time in the crop season. I don’t hire in the winter time, after I get my 
 grain in. 
 
 Q. Is there any demand there for laborers on farms during the winter 
 time ?—A. I never saw any scarcity of labor there since 1 have been 
 there. 
 
 Q. I ask you was any demand in the winter time for hired help ?—A. 
 Very little, sir; I had several applications this winter to take men and 
 board them to do the chores around the farm. 
 
 Q. Were they from people who lived there?—xY. Yes, sir; from people 
 who lived there and from different parts of the county and State. They 
 were coming around and looking for places to stop until spring-time, so 
 that they could get labor. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any reason for bringing these colored people out 
 there at this time?—A. No, sir. I don’t know of any demand for their 
 labor. 
 
 Q. You had applications to take some of them ?—A. I have had ap¬ 
 plications from white men. Two or three days before I left, a young 
 man came to me and said he would stop with me until crop-time for his 
 board. He was a nice young man from Monroe County, Indiana. 
 
 Q. Is there much of a demand even in crop-time for hands?—A. I 
 don’t know that there is. I never had any difficulty in getting hands. 
 
 Q. How are these colored men from North Carolina adapted to our 
 system of farm work ?—A. I can’t tell you because I don’t know. I 
 have not seen those who have got them ; but I should not think they 
 would satisfy us. 
 
 Q. A great deal of the farming out there is done by machinery ?—A. 
 Yes, sir ; a great deal of it. 
 
 Q. Have you talked to any of these people?—A. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. A r ou have not talked to any of them in Terre Haute ?—A. No, sir. 
 I live five miles and a half from there. I go to town every Saturday 
 evening to do my trading; then I go home and have no more to do with 
 the town after that. 
 
 Q. Have you talked to your neighbors about it ?—A. Yes, sir. I have 
 talked with a great many of them. 
 
 Q. The views you have given us are yours and those of everybody 
 else in that county ?—A. They are of every man I have talked to. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of any demand among the farming communities 
 for this class of labor ?—A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Where these emigrants have got an employment is it not done 
 more through charity than from any need for them ?—A. I don’t know, 
 sir; I can’t say that. 
 
 Q. Mr. Krusance says that Mr. McFeeters has a family on his place. 
 —A. That is Alex. McFeeter’s son; but I have not seen him to talk to 
 him. 
 
 Q. There is no difficulty out there in getting help without applying to 
 these people ?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. So it would seem like this, they got employment as charity instead 
 as necessity for their living?—A. Yes, sir. So far as I know, the men 
 who took these emigrants are men who hardly ever pay their hands, or 
 pay them in something that is not worth much. 
 
420 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a circular published by Walker?—A. No, sir; I 
 think not. 
 
 Q. In one place in this circular he says he has a demand for eighteen 
 hundred families. u Come one, come all; for the harvest is great and the 
 laborers few. 77 —A. I don’t think I ever saw it. 
 
 Q. If he has a demand for them you know nothing of it ?—A. No, sir; 
 I don’t. Speaking of a demand for help, there is an exception. Our 
 female help is scarcer than our male help. It may be that a few girls 
 could get employment, but our male help is sufficient. 
 
 Q. The want of female help in the country grows out of the fact that 
 women who work prefer to work in town, does it not?—A. \ r es, sir; 
 I think that is my experience. 
 
 By Senator Blair : 
 
 Q. Where were you born ?—A. In Orange County, Indiana. 
 
 Q. You are a Democrat ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is Mr. Krusan a Democrat, also?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF P. K. McCROSKEY. 
 
 P. K. McCroskey sworn and examined as follows : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. I reside in Terre Haute. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there?—A. I was born there, and never 
 lived anywhere else. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?—A. I am a carpenter and builder. 
 
 Q. Now, I will ask you what are your politics ?—A. I have been a 
 pretty red hot Republican since Lincoln’s first nomination. 
 
 Q, And you are still ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Y r ou are a carpenter and builder ?—A. YYs, sir. 
 
 Q. And you employ a good many men ?—A. Some years I do; that 
 depends upon the work that I have. 
 
 Q. What have you to say about the demand, and especially of laborers 
 in Indiana?—A. We have an overplus of laborers, and have had ever 
 since I lived there, in all classes and branches of trade. 
 
 Q. You mean among mechanics also ?—A. Yes, sir; mechanics and 
 common laborers. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the farming communities about there?—A. 
 Somewhat. 
 
 Q. Do you make your remark apply the same to them as to your 
 trade and business ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. You think there is an overplus of farm laborers also ?—A. I know 
 there is. 
 
 * Q. Has it not been especially so in your section since 1873 ?—A. Y r es, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Isn’t true but that for the interpose of public and private charity 
 by the town trustee and others that there are a good many people there 
 who would suffer from want, because they are out of employment, and 
 who are willing to work?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does not it look to you like a wrong thing for people to encourage 
 these people to come there?—A. Yes, sir; 1 think it is. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if, in saying that do you not reflect the sentiments 
 of the class of people to whom you belong; that is, the mechanic and 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 421 
 
 laboring classes ?—A. Yes, sir. I have talked to many of them ; some of 
 them do not express it publicly, but they do privately. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk to this man Walker on this subject?—A. Yes> 
 sir ; I did last fall. 
 
 Q. You have read his circular and interview ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In it he says he has letters from various parts of the State asking 
 for farm hands and house servants ; that he has a demand for eighteen 
 hundred families, and to coine one, come all, for the laborers are few 
 and the harvest is great. Do you .know of any demand of which he 
 speaks of in Vigo County ?—A. I don’t know of any, sir. 
 
 Q. If he has such a demand, it is beyond anything that you know of 
 the situation yourself ?—A. Yes, sir 5 and I know that he has tried to 
 get places for those of them that he has got there; but when they are 
 hired they are kept two or three days and discharged, because they 
 can’t do our kind of work. 
 
 Q. What is their condition there now ?—A. I have never talked about 
 them in the street, but they look like being in great distress. 
 
 Q. Are there many of them employed?—A. A good many there are 
 not employed. He made their headquarters at the Baptist Church. 
 
 Q. Have you no faith whatever in this statement of Walker ?—A. 
 Not a particle. I don’t believe it is true. 
 
 Q. In talking to you, what language did he hold to you about it ?—A. 
 A day or two after he came back from that convention down South he 
 saw me and ran over to meet me on the street. He seemed to be in a 
 A T ery good way, and I think he had liquor in him. I asked him what 
 was the matter, and he said he had made a good thing out of his trip. 
 He said he had made arrangements to turn the negro emigrants into 
 Indiana, so as to get ten thousand in there, and carry the State. He 
 said he thought he could get to elect them in the State ; that a 
 good many of the farmers would take them and help the best they could ; 
 but I knew that we didn’t want any of them in our county. 
 
 Q. Did he seem to be very much pleased with his project?—A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, what seems to be the sentiment of the old colored citizens of 
 the comity on this subject?—A. They are opposed to it. 
 
 Q. Your recollection, Mr. McCroskey, goes back a long ways in your 
 county ; and, speaking from your knowledge, tell us what is your under¬ 
 standing as to the origin of that colored settlement in our county?—A. 
 There was some of them there before I was born, and some have come 
 there since; some came there and entered their own land and others 
 came afterwards when the land was cheap and bought and had their 
 friends to come afterwards. The old ones are generally good people; 
 but they have a class of young ones there, who are a pretty hard set, 
 and there have been some murderers among them. The most of them, 
 though, came there a long time ago. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me state the information I have. It is that our 
 county was settled in 1811 and 1812 when Fort Harrison was a military 
 post; that the county was settled by people who came there from Mary¬ 
 land, Virginia, and Kentucky, and they brought many of these colored 
 people with them, w T ho were slaves, and who became free when they got 
 there, and when the white people settled there the colored people natur¬ 
 ally settled with them and made this a colored settlement. 
 
 The Witness. Y r es, sir; I think that many of them came from Ken¬ 
 tucky, perhaps the most of them, and some from Virginia and Mary¬ 
 land. I have talked with them, and they say so, and 1 find that most 
 of those settlers were from the Southern States. 
 
422 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. These colored people have been in the main good respectable peo¬ 
 ple f—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have acquired property?—A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Especially in the country?—A. Yes, sir; more so in the country 
 than in the city. 
 
 Q. I don’t know that I asked you if you ever talked with these older 
 settlers on this subject?—A. Not with the oldest. I talked with some 
 of the old men, but they have not lived there as long as some of the 
 others. Some of them say that it is not right for these people to come 
 there, and others are silent in the matter. 
 
 Q. This man who carries the mail in Terre Haute was appointed upon 
 the recommendation of Postmaster Philbeck?—A. He was first appointed 
 by Morton and then reappointed through the indorsement of Mr. Phil¬ 
 beck. 
 
 Q. I need not ask you, I suppose, whether Mr. Philbeck is cognizant 
 of his course?—A. I don’t know, sir. 
 
 By Senator Blair: 
 
 Q. Did Walker say to you he had made his arrangements to get these 
 people there?—A. He didn’t say. He said he was going to get enough 
 to carry the State against the Democrats. 
 
 Q. What sort of a man is Walker?—A. He is a big, important sort 
 of a nigger, who thinks he knows it all. 
 
 And you say he was in liquor that day ?—A. I think he had some 
 liquor on board, though he may not. 
 
 Q. Have you repeated all that he said ?—A. He said more, but I can’t 
 remember it. I just made up my mind from what he said that he was 
 trying to shoulder the responsibility of the whole thing. 
 
 Q. l r ou had no more talks with him about it?—A. Never since then. 
 
 Q. How many of these people has he brought in there?—A. He must 
 have brought two or three hundred into Terre Haute. I don’t know 
 exactly how many, but there were two or three lots. 
 
 Q. Were they men, women, and children together ?—A. Yes, sir. I 
 think a lot came there before I came away, but I don’t know how many. 
 
 Q. What has become of them ?—A. I seen some of them about the 
 streets, and T see it stated that they were carried in the basement of the 
 colored church and fed there. 
 
 Q. Havn’t the most of them been distributed about through the coun¬ 
 try?—A. A good many of them have. 
 
 Q. You speak of this colored settlement there, in your country. Now, 
 if these same colored people, instead of stopping in Indiana where there 
 seems to be no surplus work, they find their way to other parts of the 
 country where land is cheap and where they could grow up as this col¬ 
 ony has done, do you see any reason why they should not succeed the 
 same as these Indiana negroes have done?—A. Y"es, sir; I see the rea¬ 
 son why the older negroes should not, and its cause is that they don’t 
 understand our system of labor. The younger ones might do so, but 
 still they would have to go where land is cheap and just as good as that 
 in Indiana. 
 
 Q. Still this colony might do so elsewhere and grow up and become 
 prosperous and happy ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The people of Indiana don’t object to that being done. Do they ?— 
 A. No, sir; we have more than we want of this class of people and 
 would rather they would not stop with us. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 423 
 
 Q. And that is the general sentiment of your people without regard 
 to party ?—A. Yes, sir ; I don’t know anything about the party feeling. 
 
 Q. If it is the general sentiment, it is irrespective of party 1 ?—A. I 
 don’t think any man there, who would speak his sentiments, is in favor 
 of their coming. Perhaps a man might go in a place where he would 
 not want to say so; but I don’t think there is any demand for them 
 there. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say there is no demand for any kind of laborer, 
 white or black ?—A. We have all we need. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is any prejudice against them on account of 
 their color?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think if they were needed at all, the people would hire 
 them as they do the whites ?—A. Yes, sir; if they do the same work, 
 but they would not discharge a white man in order to hire a negro, or 
 hire a negro in preference, but if they needed their work they would 
 hire them. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM M. STEVENSON. 
 
 William M. Stevenson sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?—Answer. Terre Haute, Vigo County, 
 Indiana. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there?—A. I have lived there since 
 1SG1, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you reside before that ?—A. I resided in an adjoining 
 county for several years. I came to Indiana from Kentucky in 1853. 
 
 Q. You are by profession a physician?—A. Yes, sir; that is my pro¬ 
 fession. 
 
 Q. You are employed, I believe, by the county of Vigo to attend to 
 the poor of the county ?—A. Well, sir, I have charge of the penitentiary 
 at Terre Haute, and also of a kind of infirmary. I have had that for 
 three years—the medical and surgical department of it. 
 
 Q. Your profession throws you a great deal among the poor people?— 
 A. A great deal, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell us what you think of this immigration of North Carolina 
 negroes into Indiana, from what you have seen of the condition of 
 affairs there and the demand for labor.—A. The supply of unskilled 
 labor in our city and county has been largely in excess of the demand, 
 and there is a great deal of destitution in the city among men of fam¬ 
 ilies, and among those who become county charges and apply for relief. 
 There are men of unskilled labor w T ho have lived for a long time in the 
 county, and they have become county charges simply because they can¬ 
 not get employment. Some of them say they can get a day’s work or 
 two days’ work, but the result is that when they get sick they become 
 county charges, and I have to have assistance both medical and other¬ 
 wise through the charity of the county to aid them and attend to them. 
 There is a large proportion of the colored population of the city of Terre 
 Haute who might be classed among the pauper element of the city. 
 They are people who have been there ever since I knew the town. 
 There are a few w r ell-to-do colored people in this population, and some 
 have done very well there. As to the demand for labor, there are peo¬ 
 ple of my acquaintance in the county—and I am pretty well acquainted 
 
424 NEGRO EXODUS * ROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 throughout the county—who say that there is an excess of farm labor 
 in the county. The farmers generally out there do not carry large - 
 farms, and can usually do their own work, except in the cropping sea¬ 
 son, when they are putting in their grain and when they are harvesting. 
 There is generally very little hiring among the farmers. I know a few 
 instances of old residents of the county working for their board, in ex¬ 
 pectation of getting employment in the spring, when the season opens. 
 Our town is very full of destitute women, widows and others, whose 
 subsistence comes from daily labor, such as washing and things of that 
 kind. Many of them are in the county poor-house as the recipients of 
 public charity. I think there are some ten or fifteen children at the 
 county poor-house who are bright, healthy-looking children, and who 
 are waiting for homes; and applications and notices of the fact have 
 been made to the people, but they are a little slow about taking them. 
 
 Q. Is there any possible necessity in the nature of things for this 
 immigration that has struck our county ?—A. There is no demand for 
 them from the labor standpoint. They are not needed and are very 
 much objected to on account of their impoverished circumstances, and 
 they are objected to particularly by the tax payers. The only demand 
 I know for them is that they are voters. 
 
 Q. Have you talked with any of those that have arrived there?—A. 
 I visited them once down at the church, but did not have many inter¬ 
 views with them; I went>to look in on them at the church, and I found 
 a very destitute batch there. They were lying there, perfectly helpless; 
 did not know where to go or what to do, or where they were expected 
 to go; and a committee, consisting of Walker and Bagby, were making 
 efforts to get employment for them. They rented a number of little 
 shanties about the city to put them in. I visited one of them, which 
 was not as big as this room, and there were fifteen persons in there— 
 children of all ages, from fifteen years old down to the prospect of chil¬ 
 dren. They were in an abject state of destitution. 
 
 Q. How were they off for clothing?—A. They were very ragged and 
 wretched, and the women were very poorly clad. 
 
 Q. How was that batch fed there in the church ?—A. I know they 
 were fed by contributions from that committee. They have a reception 
 committee, of which Walker is president and Elbert vice-president. I 
 am acquainted with Elbert, but with Walker I am not. These people 
 have been fed by charitable contributions from their own class of citi¬ 
 zens and by the contributions of a few sympathizing Republican friends 
 of the cause. 
 
 Labor is hard to get, although they have made applications to every¬ 
 body likely to need them. One of my Democratic friends wanted some, 
 but he did not want any minors among them. A gentleman from near 
 the State line, a good farmer, Mr. Elliott, wanted several persons on his 
 farm, women and children, and when they found that he was over the 
 line and out of the State, they would not go to him, although he is a 
 Republican. 
 
 Q. What was their reason for not going beyond the State line ?—A. 
 They said that was not the condition of their contract when they left 
 North Carolina. They understood that they were to stay in Indiana, 
 and they did not propose to leave there. 
 
 Q. How is this immigration regarded by the settled colored people of 
 our county?—A. The colored population is opposed to their immigra¬ 
 tion. Stewart, Malone, Harris, Underwood, and other well-to-do colored 
 people oppose it, because they are tax-payers, and they consider these 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 425 
 
 people an additional tax on the county ; and on that account they have 
 opposed it vigorously. 
 
 Q. Have you heard Walker’s statement read here, in which he stated 
 that he had a demand for eighteen hundred families of them?—A. Yes,, 
 sir ; I have read it, and I have heard what Walker said about it. 
 
 Q. I will ask you the probability of its being true ?—A. It is not true 
 in any particular. There is no demand whatever for laborers there. 
 There is no demand for skilled labor, and certainly no demand for un¬ 
 skilled labor. There is a large excess in the supply over the demand ; 
 and if Mr. Walker would give his attention to it and to nothing else, he 
 could not find situations for eighteen hundred families in Vigo and Clay 
 Counties both put together. I know that the pauper people there, such 
 as servant girls and people who do laundry work, have great difficulty 
 in getting work to do. 
 
 Q. How many Bepublican newspapers are printed in Terre Haute?-— 
 A. There are three, I believe—The Express, The Courier, and The Mail. 
 
 Q. Have you not seen any of them condemning this outrageous con¬ 
 duct of Walker?—A. I never have. I have seen an appeal in The Ex¬ 
 press calling for contributions to aid these people; asking for old clothes 
 and food for those who were in the church. 
 
 Q. Did you see published, along with Walker’s proclamation, this ap¬ 
 peal for aid that was issued by a meeting of colored people ?—A. Yes, 
 sir ; that is the appeal that I was referring to. 
 
 Q. It struck you rather strangely, did it not, that such an appeal should 
 have to be made if there was a demand for eighteen hundred families 
 in Yigo County ?—A. Yes, sir; I thought if the demand was so great 
 and the laborers so few, there certainly would not be any necessity for 
 such an appeal. There was one of these darkies who was so much dis¬ 
 couraged and disgusted that he went back home. He relieved his step¬ 
 father of forty-six dollars, and with it went back to North Carolina. 
 
 Q. How did he relieve him of it?—A. He relieved him of it by steal¬ 
 ing it. His step-father was left in the lurch, and is now on the county. 
 
 By Mr. Blair : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other person except this thief that has gone 
 back?—A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, he seemed to find North Carolina better for him than Indi¬ 
 ana ?—A. Yes,[sir; but there were three others who said that they would 
 go back if they* could get the money. 
 
 Q. And they did not have any step-fathers to steal from ?—A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What is the population of your city?—A. About twenty-six thou¬ 
 sand, may be; I cannot be certain, but I judge that from the last Direc¬ 
 tory that was published. 
 
 On motion the committee stood adjourned, subject to the call of the 
 chairman. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF T. C. GBOOMES. 
 
 T. C. Groomes sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. You may state where you live.—Answer. At Greeucastle, 
 Putnam County. 
 
 Q. What are you engaged in there?—A. Practicing law. 
 
426 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. Dow long have you lived there ?—A. Forty years. 1 was born 
 and raised there. 
 
 Q. Do you know George Langsdale, the editor of the Greencastle 
 Banner?—A. I am very well acquainted with him. 
 
 Q. What official position does he occupy there ?—A. Postmaster. 
 
 Q. How large a place is Greencastle ?—A. We have about six thou¬ 
 sand people. 
 
 Q. It is the site of Asbury University ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the county seat of Putnam County ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A large and wealthy county ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long has Langsdale been postmaster?—A. He is in his sec¬ 
 ond term now. 
 
 Q. IJe was appointed first by President Grant?—A. Yes, sir; and I 
 think his second term began last July. 
 
 Q. Y r ou say he is the editor of the Greencastle Banner ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are its politics ?—A. Republican. It is a Republican organ 
 for that county. 
 
 Q. Have you got a file of that paper with you ?—A. Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. If you cau, please turn to the editorial of that paper of November 
 28, 1878. 
 
 Q. I will ask whether there had been an election that fall in Indiana 
 in which the Republicans were badly beaten ?—A. Yes, sir; on the sec¬ 
 ond Tuesday in October. 
 
 Q. What was the result?—A. The entire Democratic ticket in the 
 county was elected except the county treasurer. 
 
 Q. What was the result in the State?—A. The State went Demo- 
 • cratic. 
 
 Q. By some fourteen or fifteen thousand, didn’t it ?—A. I think it 
 was up in the thousands somewhere. 
 
 Q. Can you recall for a moment what General Hanson’s majority 
 was ?—A. Thirteen or fourteen thousand. 
 
 Q. They also elected a Democratic legislature by a large majority ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you now turn to the article of December 12, 1878, headed 
 “Will they come north ?” and read it ? 
 
 On motion the committee adjourned to Friday, February 6, at 10 
 o’clock a. in. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF T. C. GROOMES. 
 
 T. C. Groomes sworn and examined: 
 
 By the Chairman 
 
 Question. Mr. Groomes, on Wednesday you were proceeding at my 
 request to lay before the committee certain matters in the Greencastle 
 Banner; I will ask you to turn to the article of January 23, 1879?— 
 Answer. That is the article that authorizes the resolution of Senator 
 Windom. 
 
 Q. I will read the article (reading.) 
 
 [January 23, 1879, Banner.] 
 
 The proposition of the Banner that the colored men of the South emigrate to the 
 North, where their political freedom is secure, has been adopted by Senator Windom, 
 who, on the 16th instant, introduced the following resolution into the United States 
 Senate: 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 427 
 
 “ Resolved , That with a view to the peaceful adjustment of all questions relating 
 suffrage, to the effectual enforcement of Constitutional and national rights, and to the 
 promotion of the best interest of the whole country by the elimination of sectionalism 
 from politics, a committee of seven Senators be appointed by the chair and charged 
 with the duty of inquiring as to the expediency and practicability of encouraging and 
 promoting by all just and proper methods the partial migration of colored persons from 
 those States and Congressional districts where they are not allowed to freely and peace¬ 
 fully exercise and enjoy their Constitutional rights as American citizens, into sucb 
 States as may desire to receive them, and will protect them in the said rights, or 
 into such Territory or Territories of the United States as may be provided for their use 
 and occupation; and if the said committee shall deem such migration expedient and 
 practicable, that they report, by bill or otherwise, what in their judgment is the most 
 effective method of accomplishing that object; and that the said committee have leave 
 to sit during recess. ,? 
 
 The resolution was laid on the table for the present, at the request of Mr. Windom, 
 and he gave notice that he would call it up soon and submit some remarks. The time 
 of the Senate during which it will be under Republican control, is so short, that prob¬ 
 ably nothing can be done in the way suggested by the resolution, but it will serve to 
 call the attention of the country to the subject, and promote the emigration of Repub¬ 
 licans from the terrorized districts of the South to the free North. 
 
 I)o yon recognize this as matter from the Greencastle Banner?—A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. With your note?—A. Yes, sir; I made it. 
 
 Q. Please read it. 
 
 The witness read as follows: 
 
 They, the negroes, can render the country some service, &c. 
 
 Q. Turn to the issue of March 20, 1879. 
 
 The Witness read as follows : 
 
 There is great alarm in the South at the prospect of losing 'the colored laborers, 
 who are packing up their beds and walking off to the North, Ac. 
 
 Q. Now read from the issue of August 21, 1879, the article headed 
 “ To farmers.” 
 
 Q. You stated to the committee that you were born and raised in 
 Greencastle ?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made yourself familiar to any extent with the condition 
 of these emigrant folks ?—A. lain about the court-house frequently, 
 and while there I have seen batches of three, four, to six and ten 
 round there at the clerk’s office and at the sheriff’s office. I think about 
 the first batch I saw I went into the clerk’s office, and there were prob¬ 
 ably half a dozen in there. 
 
 Q. What were they wanting?—A. They were asking some one to 
 take an interest in their behalf and get them back to North Carolina. 
 They said they had not found things as they were represented. 
 
 Q. Did you hear them say so?—A. Yes, sir; I think I heard four of 
 them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear these folks talking that way at other times?— 
 A. I have heard others talk that way. That same party did get away, 
 I think—those four. 
 
 Q. It costs them more to get away than it does to get there, does it 
 not?—A. Yes, sir; from what they said. 
 
 Q. About twice as much ?—A. Yes, sir. I think I was in the sher¬ 
 iff’s office when some women were in there. I think this Chloe Smith 
 was in there and four or five others. There were one or two women 
 whose husbands were still in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. What were they wanting ?—A. She was wanting Mr. Allen or the 
 sheriff to write to these parties they had formerly lived with for money 
 to return home on. They had failed to find places to work. I never 
 conversed with one of them. I do not know that I ever spoke to one 
 of them. 
 
428 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You know of no effort to persuade them to go home?—A. Yo, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was the local correspondent of the Cincinnati Gazette, at 
 Greencastle?—A. The rumor is that it is young Darnell, assistant post¬ 
 master or deputy postmaster at Greencastle. 
 
 Q. He is in Langsdale’s employ, is he not ?—A. He is his deputy. 
 
 Q. Now, having lived there all your life, do you know of any call for 
 this class of people there?—A. Yo, sir; we have no demand for addi¬ 
 tional labor. If there is any such demand it is of very recent date. In 
 fact, I have kept that class of people in my employment, and the resi¬ 
 dent negroes there complain very bitterly against these new-comers. 
 
 Q. Why is that?—A. They say it will cut down wages and increase 
 the number of laborers. 
 
 Q. Since the panic and these hard times is it not true, notoriously so, 
 that many people are out of work in that section of the country ?—A. 
 AYs, sir. In our county 1 think I can find them, plenty of them, who do * 
 not get work all the time. In the harvest time there is some little de¬ 
 mand. 
 
 Q. How long does that last; two weeks?—A. Yes, sir, probably 
 four; that is, the hay season and the wheat season. 
 
 By Mr. Windom : 
 
 Q. What is your business ?—A. Practicing law. 
 
 Q. What political party are you with ?—A. The Democratic party. 
 
 Q. What have you heard of the efforts to intimidate people from em¬ 
 ploying these emigrants?—A. Yothing, 
 
 Q. Yothing whatever ?—A. Yo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of that house being burned ?—A. Yes, sir ; I heard 
 of two that were burned, and one that had a tree felled across it. 
 
 Q. They were under preparation at the time for colored tenants ?—A. 
 One was up in Wilson’s, in Russell township; it was being prepared by 
 the tenant himself. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of these attempts made at Shelbyville ?—A. Yes, 
 sir; I heard of it through the newspapers. I heard that the people 
 there were opposed to their coming. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think those things would have on the demand 
 for their labor, that houses being prepared for them were burned down ?— 
 A. I do not think it will increase it. The impression is that these Re¬ 
 publicans burned it down themselves. Up there they oppose it, but the 
 Republicans in our locality generally favor it. 
 
 Q. Are the Republicans up there worse against the negroes than 
 against the Democrats ?—A. Yo, sir; I do not say that. The opposi¬ 
 tion in that party comes from that township. It is a strong Republican 
 township, and there are not many Democrats up there. We pay no 
 particular attention to it during election time, and it is always very 
 quiet. 
 
 Q. There are Democrats in that vicinity, though?—A. Yes, sir ; not 
 in the immediate vicinity, but within four or five miles. 
 
 Q. Who told you that the Republicans did it ?—A. It is common talk 
 and public, that when the grand jury meets they will fasten it on some 
 of the Republicans. 
 
 Q. They think an investigation of it ought to be made ?—A. AYs, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And you will attempt to fasten it on the Republicans?—A. We 
 will attempt to fasten it on the guilty ones. 
 
 Q. Do you know that that impression is sought to be made by mem¬ 
 bers of your party in order to avoid the odium of burning houses over 
 the heads of negro emigrants?—A. Yo, sir. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 429 
 
 Q. Do you not believe it ?—A. I do not. 
 
 Q. State who you heard say that.—A. I do not know who. 
 
 Q. Do you know that you heard anybody say it?—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not an impression born of your own imagination that you 
 •have?—A. No, sir; they were not created in that way in my mind. 
 
 Q. Can you say who said it to you?—A. Ho, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you hear it?—A. At home, in Greencastle. 
 
 Q. It is not talked of very much, is it?—A. I cauuot say how much. 
 
 Q. How many people did you hear say it?—A. I do not know that I 
 beard it more than once. I cannot state who was present, or what was 
 said particularly. 
 
 Q. You heard somebody say so that made au impression on your 
 mind?—A. Well, I thought it was more likely among Republicans than 
 anybody else, for the reason that most of them there were opposed to 
 these negroes. 
 
 Q. Who were they who were opposed to them ?—A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any of them?—A. Yes, sir; but I am not 
 able, at this time, to enumerate them, or particularize them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear Republicans making threats against them ?— 
 A. No, sir; I never heard of a threat from a Republican ora Democrat 
 in the county. For political reasons some of them might have done so, 
 but I do not know it. 
 
 Q. Y"ou saw these people in the sheriff’s office, you say ?—A. YYs, sir; 
 I was there when they were there. 
 
 Q. Do you know how they got there?—A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know at whose invitation they w r ere there?—A. I do not 
 know. I may have heard that they were there to get a letter written. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Lewman there at the time?—A. Mr. Lewmau was not 
 in there, but Mr. Allen, his deputy, was writing a letter for Chloe 
 Smith, I think. 
 
 Q. Then Allen wrote that letter that was read here this morning?— 
 A. I do not know, sir. I did not read it. 
 
 Q. Who was it to ?—A. It was to some person in North Carolina. 
 The letter that was read here this morning sounds familiar, though. 
 She was dictating what she wanted to express. 
 
 Q. So her feelings were expressed through Mr. Allen?—A. Yes, sir; 
 I think so. 
 
 Q. Who was the correspondent of the Cincinnati Gazette?—A. I say 
 the rumor is that it is Mr. Darnell. 
 
 Q. Do you know a Mr. Moore who is there from Cincinnati ?—A. No, 
 sir; I never heard of him. 
 
 Q. What was it you heard these people say about their condition ?— 
 A. They said they were disappointed in every way. They found no 
 work, nor the wages as represented in the circulars and by the people 
 who came there to North Carolina. 
 
 Q. How many of them came to your county ?—A. I have no definite 
 idea of the number. I have heard it estimated at two hundred and 
 fifty men, women, and children. My impression is there were seventy- 
 five voters who came into that county. The first batch, I think, were 
 all men. Numbers of them got places, and some did not. Some went 
 to Brazil, and some to Indianapolis. Some went to Hendricks County, 
 and some to Plainfield. I think that Mr. Hanna took some of them 
 there. 
 
 Q. How many did not find employment?—A. I do not know, but you 
 can see them standing about the streets every day, eight or ten in a 
 bunch. 
 
430 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 Q. You do not know liow many failed to get work?—A. No, sir; only 
 that I heard them say they did not. There is a family I have that lives 
 on my place. The man told me that a committee of white gentlemen 
 came'to his house, and wanted to arrange to have him take two or three 
 women and keep them, but he declined to do it. 
 
 Q. You speak of hard times since the panic of 1873. Has that not 
 been true all over the country?—A. 1 think so. 
 
 Q. Not more so in Indiana than elsewhere ?—A. I do not know, except 
 as to my own county. I know of people who own land who do not 
 cultivate as much as they did before, and they make more money by not 
 cultivating it. 
 
 Q. In what way?—A. By grazing it. They can purchase corn in 
 Illinois and ship it in there for less than they can grow it. 
 
 EXHIBIT A. 
 
 (Refers to Cromwell’s testimony.) 
 
 Last July we held a State conference; that is, I mean the delegates, of whom I was 
 one. This conference was held in the city of Houston for the purpose of consulting 
 the best steps to be taken with regard to the migration of the colored people, and 
 also to their future elevation. I had the honor of being elected one of the commis¬ 
 sioners on migration from the sixth Congressional district. I have been traveling 
 over the counties of my district ever since, lecturing to my people. My subjects are 
 political, financial, educational, social, moral, and religious culture. Our people, my 
 friend, need teaching more than they do emigration. I am sorry to have to say it, but 
 it is the truth concerning them. I make it my business, as commissioner, to go into 
 each one of the counties where there is a large portion of colored people and lecture to 
 them in the court-house I tell the white people what we want, and our people what 
 they must do for themselves; that they must reform, and must do it peaceably. I 
 never pick or choose committees to go to their assistance. I have been in some of the 
 most desperate counties in the State. I tell the white men what the colored men de¬ 
 sire, but at the same time I don’t forget to tell my race that their negligence, coward¬ 
 ice, and dissipation are what has brought the colored people as low as they are, and 
 unless they reform themselves they can never command respect here or in the North. 
 Education, w r ealtli, and independence are what the colored man needs, and these must 
 be brought about by virtuous cultivation. I am as poor as any man can be, and yet 
 I was elected commissioner of this migration. I was elected without a dollar tow r ork 
 with, so I had to do the best I could without money, and depend entirely upon the 
 people, which does not suit the preachers. Since last July I have gone through the 
 following counties, and received the following amounts from each county: Hays 
 County. $4.40; Caldwell County, $10.50; Guadalupe County, $8.90; Comal County, 
 $3.20; Blanco County, $1.50; Kendall County, $2.75; Kerr County, $2.55; Wilson 
 County, $0.85; Gonzales County, $14.35; De Witt County, $20.95; Victoria County 
 $21.20; Goliad County, $13.40; the total amounting to $122.55. In many counties I 
 have walked from thirty to forty miles, because the people were so poor they could 
 not help me. But what encourages me to go on is that at the present time my work 
 is appreciated very highly by my people. Everywhere I go they say it makes them 
 feel glad and proud to see that the day has come when they have men with the 
 courage and ability to advocate their cause before the white people, and also to teach 
 them things that they have not heretofore known, but must learn in order to rise to 
 success and command respect. 
 
 Now, sir, I think if we had good, able, and courageous men to advocate the cause 
 of our people much good could be done, but it takes money. Such men must be paid 
 a salary. If we are expected to do a great work we ought to get something for our 
 labor. Is this not so ? I tell you, my friend, this is no child’s play—this work we 
 have to perform. But I am, by the help of God, trying to do all I can for my people. 
 The white people think we are getting paid by the government, but we do not get a 
 cent from the government. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 431 
 
 Please write to me at Indianola, Calhoun County, Texas. Send me a copy of the 
 proceedings of the Nashville conference, and also a copy of your paper. 
 
 I remain your humble servant, 
 
 G. M. TROUSDAIR, 
 
 Commissioner on Migration, Sixth Congressional District. 
 
 J. W. Cromwell, Esq., 
 
 Washington , I). C. 
 
 EXHIBIT B. 
 
 Victoria, Tex., Januarg 12,1880. 
 
 Respected Sir : Having received a copy of the proceedings of the Nashville confer¬ 
 ence, I am happy to say that I am very much pleased with its labors. Every colored 
 man ought to have a copy of those minutes, as there is some very instructive advice 
 to be found in them. As for myself, my education is very limited, but I am happy to 
 say that I am young in years, and God is continually blessing me with good health 
 and excellent brains for learning. Then ought I not to be thankful, and to trust in 
 Him for future merciesf Yes, sir; I do thank God for the past, and trust Him for the 
 future, which the whole of our oppressed race ought to do. But I tell you, sir, they 
 do not. The reason I speak as I do is because I am an eye-witness of this people, and 
 of their moral and religious conduct. 
 
 EXHIBIT C. 
 
 “folding their tents.” 
 
 The reaction of the exodus movement on the part of the colored people from this 
 State to Kansas has set in in earnest, and every train coming south brings some of 
 them back. Those that emigrated were principally from the southern counties. Last 
 evening at the Union depot a Herald reporter met with an old negro man named Ed- 
 umd Burleson, who had gone with eight others of his race from Burleson County on 
 the 17th of November. They went by rail to Parsons, where they found a large num¬ 
 ber of their race quartered in the churches, school-houses, and other buildings not 
 permanently occupied, like a lot of sheep huddled together. There were temporary 
 structures of plank not much larger than a shed to which a large number of them 
 were living. Every empty house in the country was filled to its utmost. After pay¬ 
 ing their railroad fare, with but few exceptions, none of them had any money left, and 
 when the cold snap came on their suffering was terrible. The night before he left 
 Parsons one of their number froze to death. The cold was intense, and their clothing 
 being thin and their bed clothing skimpy, they suffered severely. Destitute and 
 penniless, they have been forced to forage on the surrounding country for food to keep 
 them alive, and would have frozen to death had they not stolon coal from the railroad. 
 Their depredations on the settlers have caused an ill-feeling on the part of the residents 
 toward them, and they are fast feeling the effects of their displeasure. He says that 
 it took cash, and lots of it, to‘purchase the bare necessities of life. The only thing he 
 saw that was cheap was corn, which sells at from ten to twenty-eight cents a bushel. 
 There were so many of them together that it was impossible for them to get work at 
 any price. Land rents are required to be paid cash down, and the rates are generally 
 from three to four dollars an acre. Lands that rent at this price are without fences 
 or houses of any kind. He thought the lands of Texas far superior, while they pro¬ 
 duced a greater variety. “ I would not, so far as I am concerned, give Burleson County 
 for the whole of Kansas,” said the old man with much earnestness. They Avish them¬ 
 selves back, but the trouble is, they have spent all their money getting there, and but 
 very few have anything to get away on. He went from Parsons to Emporia, where 
 he found the same state of affairs existing. There are numbers of them leaving every 
 day afoot, and without means, walking through to this State on their return home. 
 One of the women that accompanied him was sent back by her husband, who had 
 barely enough money to i>ay her passage, while he is coming through afoot. He re¬ 
 gards the whole matter as a political movement engendered by the Republicans for 
 the purpose of swelling the vote of Kansas. In his opinion the seeds of discontent were 
 sowed at the convention held at Houston in July last by the colored people, by white 
 and coloied politicians. The main instrument in his county in gulling his race into 
 leaving their homes was Horace Ruby, a Jim-crow politician and a school-teacher. 
 
432 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 The poor, deluded blacks are awakening to their true situation, and are beginning to 
 realize that they have been inveigled there for no other purpose than to secure their 
 votes. Parson Duncan, the sable politician so well and unfavorably known to the 
 blacks of this city, has been one of the principal agitators in the movement. He was 
 stationed for awhile at Denison to receive and rob his race as they passed out of the 
 State. He would take their money to purchase their tickets, and represented invarably 
 that it cost more than it did. He was caught up with and arrested, but on returning 
 the amount he had stolen he was set at liberty. He is wanted at Parsons for some of 
 his crookedness, but sloped, and has not yet been apprehended. As for himself, the 
 old man said that he was going back to Burleson County to stay.—[Dallas (Texas) 
 Herald.] 
 
 EXHIBIT D. 
 
 There were about four millions of slaves set free and turned into the highways with¬ 
 out a place to lay their heads or means of support, save their own muscles. They do 
 not need charity, but they do need advice, assistance, and opportunity to purchase 
 and pay for homes. The South never can prosper as it should until its great laud 
 estates be divided and sold to actual cultivators. At first, very generally, the owners 
 of these were not disposed to sell to the negroes. In many parts it is not so now. At 
 the North there is abundance of capital seeking investment, and it does seem to me 
 that the time is favorable for a national organization to buy these lands and sell them 
 to white and colored people on such terms and at such rates as they can pay for them, 
 and will yield a reasonable profit to those who invest their money in the enterprise. 
 Could not the government also lend a helping hand?—(Philadelphia Times.) 
 
 EXHIBIT E. 
 
 A great deal of fuss is being made nowadays by Democratic papers and politicians, 
 and also by milk and water Republicans, about the immigration of colored people to 
 this State from the South. The talk about colonization is the silliest nonsense, mere 
 moonshine. There is no need for colonization societies in Indiana. The colonization 
 organizations are at the other end of the line—shot-gun, bulldozing, rebel, Democratic 
 banditti of the South. 
 
 The brutal conduct of these scoundrels has made the exodus a necessity. The only 
 thing political in this exodus is the desire of these unfortunate, down-trodden people 
 to find a land in which political liberty and commercial honesty are recognized and 
 respected. In Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Kansas, and the great Northwest, they find 
 such a land and a civilization as far in advance of the barbaric customs of the South 
 as a Christian is in advance of a cannibal. The gallant soldier boys of the North who 
 languished in Southern prisons during the war know the brutish instincts of Southern 
 rebels and they know that the reports of the outrages to which the colored people are 
 subjected are not exaggerated. The exodus will only stop when a citizen of the United 
 States is as free to express and vote his sentiments in North Carolina as he is iu In¬ 
 diana.—(Iudianopolis Leader.) 
 
 (Refers to O’Hara’s testimony.) 
 
 Ex-judge William J. Clark has commenced the publication at Raleigh of a Republi¬ 
 can paper, the Signal, and has the following to say on the present exodus going on from 
 this district : * * * “ He sees the colored man in many counties excluded from the 
 
 jury-box because of hiscolor, and that a negro accused of crime is convicted on half 
 the evidence which is necessary to convict a white man, and in many cases cruel and 
 severe punishments inflicted on the negro who has been convicted of some petty 
 felony.” 
 
 Again, in commenting on Senator Ransom’s speech in Congress on the exodus inves¬ 
 tigation, the Signal says : 
 
 “We dare say, the Senator has never attended an inferior court iu Wayne or Lenoir 
 County, or a court of a justice of the peace at a cross-roads grocery iu that section, 
 since the election of magistrates was taken from the people, and the legislature took 
 to appointing them; if he had, he would not say that the negro obtains justice in facie 
 curiae. 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 433 
 
 Chapter CXLI. 
 
 AX ACT to establish county governments. 
 
 Section 1 . The general assembly of North Carolina do enact , Every county is a body 
 politic and corporate, and shall have the powers prescribed by statute and those neces¬ 
 sarily implied by law, and no others. 
 
 Sec. 2. In each county there shall be elected biennially, by the qualified voters 
 thereof, as provided for the election of members of the general assembly, a treasurer, 
 register of deeds, and surveyor: Provided, however, That a majority of the justices 
 may abolish the office of treasurer, and thereupon the duties and liabilities now at¬ 
 tached to the office shall devolve upon the sheriff. 
 
 Sec 3. That townships heretofore created or hereafter established shall be distin¬ 
 guished by well-defined boundaries, and maybe altered and additional townships cre¬ 
 ated by the board of county commissioners, but no township shall have or exercise 
 any corporate powers whatever, unless allowed by act of general assembly, to be exer¬ 
 cised under the supervision of the board of county commissioners. 
 
 Sec. 4. The justices of the peace shall be elected by the general assembly. The 
 general assembly at its present session shall elect three justices of the peace for each 
 township in the several counties of the State, who shall be divided into three classes, 
 and hold their offices for two, four, and six years respectively, but the successors of 
 each class, as its terms expires, shall be elected by the general assembly for the term 
 of six years. In addition to the justices of the peace above provided for, there shall 
 be elected by the general assembly, for each township in which any city or incorpor¬ 
 ated town is situated, one justice of the peace, and also one for every one thousand 
 inhabitants in such city or town, who shall hold their office for the term of six years. 
 The secretary of state shall certify to the clerks of the superior courts of the sev¬ 
 eral counties in the State a list of all justices of the peace elected, for their several 
 counties, with the terms for which they shall have been appointed, and this shall be 
 their commission, and the clerk of their superior court shall notify said justices of 
 their appointment, who shall thereupon be entitled to enter upon the duties of their 
 office, upon taking before the said clerk the oath of office now prescribed by law for 
 justices of the peace. But the terms of those elected at the present session of the gen¬ 
 eral assembly shall begin at the expiration of the terms for which the justices of the 
 peace now in office have been elected and not before. When new townships shall be 
 established, if the general assembly shall not be in session, the governor shall appoint 
 the justices of the peace therein, and they shall hold their office until the next meet¬ 
 ing of the general assembly, and until their successors shall be elected aud qualified. 
 
 Sec. 5. The justices of the peace for each county, on the first Monday in August, 
 every two years thereafter, shall assemble at the court-house of their respective coun¬ 
 ties, and, a majority being present, shall proceed to the election of not less than three 
 nor more than five persons, to be chosen from the body of the county (including the 
 justices of the peace), who shall be styled the board of commissioners for the county, 
 and shall hold their offices for two years from the date of their qualification, and until 
 their successors shall be elected and qualified. But those elected on the first Monday 
 in August, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight, shall enter upon the duties 
 of their office immediately upon the expiration of the term for which the board of 
 county commissioners now in office have been elected and not before. They shall be 
 qualified by taking the oath of office before the clerk of the superior court or some 
 judge or justice of the peace, as now prescribed by law, and the register of deeds shall 
 be ex officio clerk of the board of commissioners : Provided, however, That the board of 
 commissioners shall not have power to levy taxes, to purchase real property, to re¬ 
 move or designate new sites for county buildings, to construct or repair bridges, the 
 cost whereof may exceed five hundred dollars, or to borrow money for the county, nor 
 alter or make additional townships, without the concurreuce of a majority of the jus¬ 
 tices of the peace sitting with them ; and for the purposes embraced in this proviso 
 the justices of the peace of the county shall meet with the board of commissioners on 
 the first Monday in August, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight, and an¬ 
 nually Thereafter, unless oftener convened by the board of commissioners, who are 
 hereby empowered to call together the justices of the peace, when necessary, not 
 oftener than once in three months, but, for such ser\ices the justices of the peace 
 shall receive no compensation. 
 
 Sec. 6. The board of commissioners so elected shall have and exercise the jurisdic¬ 
 tion and powers vested in the board of commissioners now existing, and also those 
 vested in and exercised by the board of trustees of the several townships, except as 
 may hereafter be prescribed by law; aud they shall hold their sessions as may be pre¬ 
 scribed by law. 
 
 Sec. 7. All the provisions of article seven of the constitution inconsistent with this 
 act, except those contained in sections seven, nine, aud thirteen, are hereby abrogated, 
 aud the provisions of this act substituted in their place; subject, however, to the power 
 28 EX 
 
434 
 
 NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 of the general assembly to alter, amend, or abrogate the provisions of this act, and to 
 substitute others in their stead, as provided for in section fourteen of article seven of 
 the constitution. 
 
 Sec. 8. This act shall be in force from and after its ratification. 
 
 Ratified the 27th day of February, A. D. 1877. 
 
 Article VII. 
 
 Municipal corporations. 
 
 Section 1. In each county there shall be elected biennially by the qualified voters 
 thereof, as provided for the election of members of the general assembly, the following 
 officers: a treasurer, register of deeds, surveyor, and five commissioners. 
 
 Sec. 2. It shall be the duty of the commissioners to exercise a general supervision 
 and control of the penal and charitable institutions, schools, roads, bridges, levj’ing of 
 taxes, and finances of the county, as may be prescribed by law. The register of deeds 
 shall be ex officio clerk of the board of commissioners. 
 
 Sec. 3. It shall be the duty of the commissioners first elected in each county to 
 divide the same into convenient districts, to determine the boundaries and prescibe the 
 name of the said districts, ami to report the same to the general assembly before the first 
 day of January, 1869. 
 
 Sec. 4. Upon the approval of the reports provided for in the foregoing section, by 
 the general assembly, the said districts shall have corporate powers for the necessary 
 purposes of local government, and shall be known as townships. 
 
 Sec. 5. In each township there shall be biennially elected, by the qualified voters 
 thereof, a clerk and two justices of the peace, who shall constitute a board of trustees, 
 and shall, under the supervision of the county commissioners, have control of the taxes 
 and finances, roads and bridges of the townships, as may be prescribed by law. The 
 general assembly may provide for the election of a larger number of justices of the 
 peace in cities and towns, and in those townships in which cities aud towns are situ¬ 
 ated. In every township there shall also be biennially elected a school committee, con¬ 
 sisting of three persons, whose duty shall be prescribed by law. 
 
 Sec. 6. The township board of trustees shall assess the taxable property of their 
 townships and make return to the county commissioners for revision, as may be pre¬ 
 scribed by law. The clerk shall also be ex officio treasurer of the township. 
 
 Sec. 7. No county, city, town, or other municipal corporation shall contract any 
 debt, pledge its faith, or loan its credit, nor shall auy tax be levied or collected by 
 any officers of the same, except for the necessary expenses thereof, unless by a vote of 
 a majority of the qualified voters therein. 
 
 Sec. 8. No money shall be drawn from any county or township treasury, except by 
 authority of law. 
 
 Sec. 9. All taxes levied by any county, city, town, or township shall be uniform and 
 ad valorem upon all property in the same, except property exempted by this consti¬ 
 tution. 
 
 Sec. 10. The county officers first elected under the provisions of this article shall 
 enter upon their duties ten days after the approval of this constitution by the Con¬ 
 gress of the United States. 
 
 Sec. 11. The governor shall appoint a sufficient number of justices of the peace, in 
 each county, who shall hold their places until sections four, five, and six of this article 
 shall have been carried into effect. 
 
 Sec. 12. All charters, ordinances, and provisions relating to municipal corporations 
 shall remain in force until legally changed, unless inconsistent with the provisions of 
 this constitution. 
 
 Sec. 13. No county, city, town, or municipal corporation shall assume, or pay, nor 
 shall any tax be levied or collected for the payuieu r > of auy debt, or the interest upon 
 any debt contracted, directly or indirectly, in aid or support of the rebellion. 
 
 Sec. 14. The general assembly shall have full power by statute to modify, change, 
 or abrogate any and all of the provisions of this article, and substitute others in their 
 place, except sections 7, 9, and 13. 
 
 Chapter CCLXXXIII. 
 
 AN ACT to amend the “landlord and tenant act.” 
 
 Section 1. The general assembly of North Carolina do enact, That when lands shall be 
 rented or leased by agreement, written or verbal, for agricultural purposes, or shall be 
 cultivated by a cropper, unless otherwise agreed between the parties to the lease o 
 agreement, any and all crops raised on said land shall be deemed and held to be veste 
 in possession of the lessor, or his assigns, at all times, until the rents for said lan d 
 shall be paid, and until all the stipulations contained in the lease or agreement sh a 
 
NEGRO EXODUS FROM SOUTHERN STATES. 
 
 435 
 
 be performed, or damages in lieu thereof shall be paid to the lessor or his assigns; 
 and until said party or his assigns shall be paid for all advancements made, and ex¬ 
 penses incurred in making aud saving said crops. This lien shall be preferred to all 
 other liens, and the lessor or his assigns shall be entitled against the lessee or cropper, 
 or the assigns of either, who shall remove the crop or any part thereof from the land 
 without the consent of the lessor or his assigns, or against auy other person who may 
 get possession of said crop, or any part thereof, to the remedies given in an action upon 
 a claim for the delivery of personal property. 
 
 Sec. 2. That whenever the lessor or his assigns shall get the actual possession of the 
 crop, or any part thereof, otherwise than by the mode prescribed in the preceding sec¬ 
 tion, aud said lessor or his assigns shall refuse or neglect, upon a notice,written or verbal, 
 of live days, given by the lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, to make a fair di¬ 
 vision of said crop, or to pay over to such lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, such 
 part thereof as he may be entitled to under the lease or agreement, then and in that case 
 the lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, shall be entitled against the lessor or his 
 assigns to the remedies given in action upon a claim for the delivery of personal prop¬ 
 erty, to recover such part of the crop as he, in law and according to the lease or agree¬ 
 ment may be entitled to. The amount or quantity of such crop claimed by said lessee or 
 cropper, or the assigns of either, together with a statement of the grounds upon which 
 it is claimed, shall be fully set forth in an affidavit at the beginning of the action. 
 
 Sec. 3. That where any controversy shall arise between the parties and neither 
 party avails himself of the provisions of the first and second sections of the act, it 
 shall be competent for either party to proceed at once to have the matter determined 
 in the court of a justice of the peace, if the amount claimed be two hundred dollars or 
 less, and in the superior court of the county where the property 7 is situated if the 
 amount so claimed shall be more than two hundred dollars. But in case there shall 
 be a continuance or an appeal from the justice’s decision to the superior court, the 
 lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, shall be allowed to retain possession of said 
 property upon his giviog bond to the lessor or his assigns, or the adverse party, in a 
 sum double the amount of the claim, if such claim does not amount to more than the 
 value of such property, otherwise to double the A 7 alue of such property, with good and 
 sufficient security, to be approved by the justice of the peace or the clerk of the supe¬ 
 rior court, conditioned for the faithful payment to the adverse party of such damages 
 as he shall recover in said action. 
 
 Sec. 4. That in case the lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, shall, at the time 
 of the appeal or continuance mentioned iu the third section of this act, fail to give 
 the bond therein required, then the constable or other lawful officer shall deliver the 
 property into the actual possession of the lessor or his assigns, upon the lessor or his 
 assigns giving to the adverse part} 7 a bond in double the amount of said property, to 
 be justified as required in the third section aforesaid, conditioned for the forthcoming 
 of such property, or the value thereof, in case judgment shall be pronounced against 
 him. 
 
 Sec. 5. That in case neither of the parties give the bond described in the third and 
 fourth sections of this act, then and in that case it shall be the duty of the justice of 
 the peace or the clerk of the superior court, in whichsoever the same shall be pending, 
 to issue an order to the constable or sheriff or other lawful officer, as the case may be, 
 directing him to take into his possession all of said property, or so much thereof as 
 shall be necessary to satisfy the claimant’s demand and costs, and to sell the same un¬ 
 der the rules and regulations prescribed by law for the sale of personal property under 
 execution, and to hold the proceeds thereof subject to the decision of the court upon 
 the issue or issues pending between the parties. That in all cases iu the superior court 
 arising under this act the return term shall be the trial term. 
 
 Sec. 6. That any lessee or cropper, or the assigns of either, or any other person, who 
 shall remove said crop, or any part thereof, from such land without the consent of the 
 lessor or his assigns, and without giving him or his agent five days’ notice of such in¬ 
 tended removal, and before satisfying all liens held by the lessor or his assigns on said 
 crop, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. 
 
 Sec. 7. That the "provisions of this act, and the act to which this is amendatory, shall 
 apply to all leases or contracts to lease turpentine trees, aud the parties thereto shall 
 be fully subject to the provisions and penalties of this act. 
 
 Sec. 8. That sections thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen of chapter sixty-four, of Battle’s 
 Revisal, and chapter two hundred and nine of the laws of one thousand eight hundred 
 and seventy-four and one thousand eight hundred aud seventy-five, and all laws aud 
 clauses of laws in conflict with the provisions of this act are hereby repealed. 
 
 Sec. 0. That this act shall be in force from and after its ratification. 
 
 Ratified the 12th day of March, 1877. 
 
INDEX. 
 
 Adams, Joseph (colored), Goldsborough, N. C. 
 
 Why left North Carolina and experience since. 
 
 Reasons for the exodus. 
 
 Life in North Carolina, wages, &c. 
 
 Arnold, F. A., newspaper publisher of Star, Greencastle, Ind., Democrat. 
 
 Circulars. &c., issued by Banner.. 
 
 Statement of negroes concerning object of exodus. 
 
 Negroes unemployed. 
 
 No demand for laborers of this class.... 
 
 Arrington, W. W. (colored), Republican. 
 
 Residence, Nash County, North Carolina.. 
 
 Causes of negro emigration. 
 
 Value of property held by negroes in Nash County. 
 
 Wages paid to hands... 
 
 School advantages. 
 
 Tenant and landlord and lien law. 
 
 Badger, R. C., lawyer, office-holder in North Carolina. 
 
 Republican.... 
 
 Past and present condition of negroes in North Carolina. 
 
 Schools, outrages, &c... 
 
 Secret societies. 
 
 Discrimination between criminals in color. 
 
 Hiring out of convicts. 
 
 Changes made by constitution.. 
 
 Appointments ot magistrates. 
 
 Conditions caused by slavery and results. 
 
 Results on society..... 
 
 Distinctions between classes of society. 
 
 Prejudices pandered to by politicians. 
 
 Elective officers.„. 
 
 Conditions caused by reconstruction policy. 
 
 Homestead exemption... 
 
 Tenants, rights, Ac. 
 
 Education better in North Carolina than elsewhere in the South. 
 
 Negroes improving in every respect... 
 
 Baker, James E., land clerk in auditor’s office, Indianapolis... 
 
 About Heath (negro agent’s statement). 
 
 Submitted affidavit of Governor Hendricks, &c. 
 
 Heath went to Greencastle iu mail car. 
 
 Believes him to be honest... 
 
 Bonitz, J. A., Democratic editor Goldsborough Messenger, North Carolina. 
 
 Census of the Lenoir County district. 
 
 Causes of exodus. Reference to Perry and Williams. 
 
 Condition of negroes in that district. 
 
 Fine condition of schools—colored and white. 
 
 Is a director of asylum lor colored insane. 
 
 Wages and method of farming. 
 
 No discrimination between races in employment of mechanics. 
 
 No discrimination between races in renting lands. 
 
 Prosperity of negroes as property owners and laborers. 
 
 Republican negroes compelled negroes to vote contrary to their own 
 
 wishes—bulldozing Democrat negroes. 
 
 Equality of races in courts, juries, offices.. 
 
 The Worley murder. 
 
 Cases of trial, citing equality in dispensation of justice. 
 
 Exodus demoralizing labor in his section—reasons for. 
 
 Negroes credulous concerning reports from emissaries. 
 
 Taylor Evans’ Emigrant Aid Society, influence of.. 
 
 Liens of mechanics and laborers. 
 
 Page. 
 
 393 
 
 394 
 
 395 
 
 396 
 350 
 
 350 
 
 351 
 351 
 351 
 251 
 
 251 
 
 252 
 
 252 
 
 253 
 253 
 253 
 
 397 
 39S 
 
 398 
 
 399 
 
 400 
 40 L 
 
 401 
 
 402 
 
 402 
 
 403 
 
 403 
 
 404 
 
 404 
 
 405 
 400 
 407 
 
 407 
 
 408 
 
 409 
 327 
 
 327 
 
 328 
 
 328 
 
 329 
 133 
 
 133 
 
 134 
 134 
 
 134 
 
 135 
 135 
 
 135 
 
 136 
 130 
 
 137 
 
 137 
 
 138 
 
 139 
 
 140 
 
 141 
 
 141 
 
 142 
 
438 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Obiect of taking the negro to Indiana..... 
 
 Article—“ Infamous defamations”—from Judge Clarke’s paper. 
 
 Constitutional restriction of suffrage and office holding. 
 
 Penalties for crime. 
 
 Borden, E. B., Goldshorougli, North Carolina. 
 
 Farmer and president of hank. 
 
 Rights and privileges of negroes and whites compared. 
 
 Causes of exodus. . . 
 
 Landlord and tenant act; its operations..... 
 
 Good feeling between races. 
 
 Demoralization of laborers, caused by exodus .. 
 
 Wages and shares, and collections by landlords and employers. 
 
 Migratory disposition of negroes. 
 
 Negro labor preferable to white.. 
 
 Effect on negroes of promises of homesteads in Indiana. 
 
 Bowen, Sayles J., colored, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Auditor of Emigrant Aid Society in Washington. 
 
 His name on Wall’s circular without authority. 
 
 Did not know of the existence of the paper announcing his name as an 
 
 officer of the association. 
 
 Brouse, C. W., Indianapolis, Indiana. 
 
 Pension agent and real estate business. 
 
 Surplus and great excess of skilled labor in Indiana. 
 
 Republican in polities, affiliating with National party. 
 
 No hostility in Indiana to self-supporting immigrants. 
 
 Buchanan, James, Indianapolis, Indiana. 
 
 Lawyer, editor, Greenback National party. 
 
 No demand for labor in the State. 
 
 Suffering, and want of employment by mechanics. 
 
 Indianapolis News (Republican) opposed to exodus. 
 
 Greencastle Banner (Republican) fostering exodus... 
 
 Democratic and National papers opposed to exodus, and why. 
 
 No prejudice against colored people; was an Abolitionist. 
 
 Believes the motive of exodus is to gain Republican votes. 
 
 Improvement in Indiana; no general, but apparent revival in business.. 
 
 Less wealth now being produced than in 1876; reasons... 
 
 Negroes in Indianapolis subsisting on charity. 
 
 Names of Republicans who incite the exodus and their object. 
 
 Proportion of men, women aud children among exodusters.. 
 
 Opinion concerning treatment of negroes in the South. 
 
 Infamous conduct of Republicans in not protecting negroes in the South.. 
 
 Outrage literature used by Republicans in the North. 
 
 Oarleton, A. B., lawyer, Terre Haute, Indiana. 
 
 Testimony concerning J. H. Walker (colored). 
 
 Conversations with old colored citizens concerning immigrants; opinions.. 
 
 No demand for labor in Vigo County. 
 
 Immigration of whites small; emigration of whites. 
 
 No use for negro laborers. 
 
 Price of wages in his section. 
 
 •Chase, W. C., Washington, D. C. 
 
 Was corresponding secretary Walls’ Emigrant Aid Association. 
 
 Walls’unreliability aud practices objected to.. 
 
 Political object of Wall and others. 
 
 Clapp, A. M., Washington, D. C... 
 
 Editor of National Republican. 
 
 Treasurer of Emigrant Aid Society... 
 
 Approves of affording facilities to go wherever the negro chooses... _ 
 
 Abstract of account of receipts and expenditures of society. 
 
 Cromwell, J. W., colored, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Clerk in Treasury Department, Sixth Auditor’s office. 
 
 Name appended to Wall’s circular by consent. 
 
 Appointed to place in Treasury from second Congressional district, Virginia 
 
 Conference of colored people at Nashville, Teun. 
 
 Was secretary of the convention, aud objects of meeting. 
 
 Two-thirds of delegates and attendants favored exodus. 
 
 Organizations for promoting exodus from Southern States. 
 
 Negroes passing through Washington, number of, aud reasons for move¬ 
 ment... 
 
 Where money came from, used to transport exodusters. 
 
 144 
 
 145 
 
 147 
 
 148 
 
 207 
 
 208 
 208 
 208 
 
 209,211 
 
 209 
 
 210 
 
 214 
 
 215 
 
 216 
 217 
 
 77 
 
 ■ 7’7 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 240 
 
 241 
 
 242 
 242 
 242 
 228 
 228 
 228 
 
 229 
 
 230 
 230 
 230 
 
 230 
 
 231 
 
 232 
 
 233 
 
 234 
 
 235 
 
 236 
 
 238 
 
 239 
 239 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 19 
 
 19 
 
 20 
 412 
 
 412 
 
 413 
 413 
 
 34 
 
 34 
 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 36 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 7 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
INDEX. 
 
 439 
 
 Bought tickets (price of) to send them to Indiana. 
 
 Concerning Perry aud Williams’ connection with movement. 
 
 Change of tide or destinationof exodusters ; reasons .. 
 
 Publications concerning destitution among immigrants in Indiana. 
 
 Not believed by colored people who want to emigrate. 
 
 No political object in the movement... 
 
 Letter from Texas concerning negro convention at Houston. 
 
 Letter from Victoria, Texas. 
 
 Dane, J. C., Richmond, Va. 
 
 Traveling agent Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad. 
 
 Business to secure the passage of emigrants over liis road. 
 
 Dickson, Ellis, colored, Green County, North Carolina. 
 
 Mechanic, mill-wright. 
 
 Condition of colored people in his section. 
 
 Causes of disturbance inducing emigration. 
 
 Employes, white and colored at same wages. 
 
 Dodd, J. W., Indianapolis... 
 
 Identifies statements made by disgusted immigrants from North Carolina 
 
 to Indiana... 
 
 Wages of North Carolina aud 'Indiana compared. 
 
 Suffering and poverty among the poor in Indiana. 
 
 Believes the movement political; why. 
 
 Dukehart. John P., Baltimore, Md.; business. 
 
 Commencement of exodus. 
 
 Arrangements for transportation from North Carolina to Indiana .. 
 
 Rates of fare, and drawback and commissions. 
 
 Number of tickets sold... 
 
 Wall’s society paid ticket agent in Washington. 
 
 Agents employed to get the emigrants to go. 
 
 No distinct ion of prices of tickets on account of color... 
 
 Influences used to produce exodus... 
 
 Representations made concerning what, they would get at Washington... 
 
 Looked on as a Moses by the exodusters. 
 
 Destination of the negroes .. 
 
 In politics, a Democrat. 
 
 Proportion of men, women, and children in shipments. 
 
 East, Hughes, grain dealer, Indianapolis. 
 
 Interview with Isler, a negro emigrant... 
 
 Affidavit of Isler, disgusted with experience. 
 
 Lewis Williams’s affidavit, stating the political object of the exodus. 
 
 Negroes anxious to return to North Carolina. 
 
 No employment for negroes in Indiana. 
 
 Condition of negro immigrants in Indiana. 
 
 Importation of voters from Kentucky. 
 
 Negroes do not get offices in Indiana.. 
 
 Extracts from Republican papers fostering exodus. 
 
 About raising money to pay fare for negroes.. 
 
 Ellis, Hilliard (colored), farmer, Wilson Township, Wilson County, North Car¬ 
 olina.. 
 
 Inducements to negroes to emigrate. 
 
 Secret societies and agents employed in the movement. 
 
 Value of his property and how made. 
 
 Rights and exercise of citizenship... 
 
 Associations between races, of pleasant character. 
 
 Complaints concerning the action of the courts. 
 
 Distu-barces chiefly caused by whisky. 
 
 Fearing, W. G. (colored), laborer in Treasury Department, Washington. 
 
 Native of North Carolina. 
 
 Succeeded Adams as secretary of Emigrant Aid Society. 
 
 Actively engaged in exodus movement; reasons.... 
 
 Believes wages and school facilities are better in Indiana than North Car- 
 
 olina. 
 
 Justifies the exodus aud don’t believe it should stop.. 
 
 Letters from Jas. Stokes and A. D. Streight and Rev. Nutt, on exodus_ 
 
 Fields, F. B., La Grange, Lenoir County, North Carolina.. 
 
 About negroes who wanted him to assist them to return from Indiana, 
 
 stating disappointment, &c... 
 
 Privileges aud freedom in North Carolina. 
 
 Perry at the head of the exodus movement. 
 
 Page. 
 
 II, 12 
 11 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 
 430 
 
 431 
 263 
 
 263 
 
 264 
 
 257 
 
 258 
 
 258 
 
 259 
 259 
 384 
 
 335 
 
 386 
 
 387 
 383 
 
 71 
 
 72 
 
 72 
 
 73 
 
 73 
 
 74 
 
 74 
 74,75 
 
 75 
 
 76 
 
 4 4 
 
 79 
 
 79 
 
 79 
 
 331 
 
 331 
 
 332 
 
 333 
 
 333 
 
 334 
 
 335 
 
 336 
 336 
 
 345 
 
 346 
 
 254 
 
 254 
 
 255 
 255 
 
 255 
 
 256 
 
 257 
 257 
 
 93 
 
 93 
 
 93 
 
 94 
 
 94 
 
 95 
 98 
 
 225 
 
 226 
 
 226 
 
 227 
 
440 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Fisher, LewisH. (colored), merchant; residence, Kinston, Lenoir County North 
 
 Carolina. 310 
 
 Property owner ; rents lands to tenants, «&c. 310 
 
 Born slave; freed before of age. 310 
 
 Made property since he became free. 310 
 
 Republican in politics. 311 
 
 County official, served as, several years. . 311 
 
 Inducements ottered to negroes to emigrate. 311 
 
 Circulars, Perry, and other influences. 311 
 
 Wages,‘kinds of labor used, &c. 311 
 
 No force used in electioneering. 312 
 
 Schools for colored people. 312 
 
 Negro land owuers, number of, &c. 313 
 
 Officers elected in county. 313 
 
 Results of elections, method of returns, &c. 313 
 
 Judges of supreme court, how elected, &c.:... 314 
 
 Pay schools, reasons for them. 314 
 
 Groomes, T. C., lawyer, Greencastle, Ind. 425 
 
 Foot-note by stenographer. 217 
 
 About Laugsdale and the Banner.. 426 
 
 Articles from Banner encouraging exodus.. 427 
 
 Condition of negro immigrants. 427 
 
 Cost of getting to Indiana and away compared. 427 
 
 Burning of houses, effect of, on negroes. 428 
 
 Negro immigrants dissatistied; why. 429 
 
 Many unemployed. 430 
 
 Hackney, Leonard G. A. (Democrat), Sbelbyville, Shelby County, Indiana_ 264 
 
 Lawyer, prosecuting attorney of the 16th judicial circuit. 264 
 
 Arrival of emigrants in Shelby ville.,... 265 
 
 Destitution; weather; reception. 265 
 
 A close district; difference of 200 in vote.. 265 
 
 Call for officers of law to prevent incoming of paupers. 266 
 
 Concerning James Harper (colored), statement of object of exodus. 266 
 
 Concerning the alleged mobbing of emigrants at Sbelbyville. 267 
 
 Decided opposition by Democrats to the negro invasion. 267 
 
 Opposition of workingmen to influx of negroes... 267 
 
 Republican newspapers and Republicans hostile to investigation. 267 
 
 Law of landlords and tenants in Indiana. 267 
 
 Penalties for petit larceny in Indiana, severity of.. 268 
 
 No demand for unskilled laborers in that section. 268 
 
 Concerning the vigilance committee at Sbelbyville. 269 
 
 Who he considers “ hoodlums ” . 269 
 
 Did not consider it a mob or unlawful assemblage. 270 
 
 Defines his idea of a mob.:. 270 
 
 His visit to the room where the vigilants assembled. 271 
 
 Opinion of Democratic party concerning object of the exodus. 273 
 
 Penalty for biinging paupers into Indiana. 274 
 
 Higgins, Napoleon (colored), Goldsborough, N. C., farmer... 260 
 
 Owner of property aud method of operations. 261 
 
 Landlord and tenant act; application to whites aud colored. 261 
 
 Poll-tax goes to educational purposes. 261 
 
 Equality in dispensation of justice. 262 
 
 No discrimination in employment, &c. 262 
 
 Sat on juries with whites ; no objection on account of color. 262 
 
 Holland, Milton M. (colored), Washington, D. C. 277 
 
 Obj ect of Emigrant Aid Society. 277 
 
 No connection with any po'itic.al organization. 277 
 
 No agents employed to operate for it. 277 
 
 How money was raised. 278 
 
 His complicity with the political idea of the exodus. 278 
 
 Second-class clerk in Bureau of Internal Revenue, law division. 279 
 
 From Columbus, Ohio. 271V 
 
 Inequality of rights to colored people in Indiana. 279 
 
 Hooker, T. E., Greene County, North Carolina. 243 
 
 Influences at work in the exodus. 243 
 
 Wages and labor in his section. 244 
 
 Republican majorities and census of whites and blacks. 244 
 
 No political persecution; no hostility between races. 244 
 
 Kelly, Albert J., Terre Haute, Ind. 15(5 
 
INDEX. 
 
 441 
 
 Lawyer, prosecuting attorney, Vigo County. 
 
 Penalties for crime in Indiana. 
 
 Cases cited of severity of punishment. 
 
 Whites and blacks treated equally before the law. 
 
 Punishment for intermarrying of races.. 
 
 No demand tor laborers] complaints against excess. 
 
 Condition of the exodusters ; poverty and pitiful condition. 
 
 Knows J. H. Walker, colored politician, to be a fraud, &c. 
 
 Kelly, John O., (colored), Raleigh, N. C... 
 
 Livery stable keeper, and property, how made. 
 
 Political status of the place and district. 
 
 Relationship of good feeling between the races. 
 
 No discrimination on account of color. 
 
 Prices paid for labor in Wake County. 
 
 Educational advantages.. 
 
 Extract from County Treasurer Neethery’s report. 
 
 No political persecution or bulldozing. 
 
 Returning-board, and counting out. 
 
 Legislature ; magistrates ; Republicans elected. 
 
 Punishments of whites and blacks, in penitentiary, &c. 
 
 Crimes, who committed by.. 
 
 Punishments, by hiring out to railroads, &c. 
 
 How he pays his employes ; wages of whites and blacks. 
 
 Koontz, George S., local passenger agent Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, Washing¬ 
 ton, D. C... 
 
 Location of roads controlled by Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. 
 
 The ticket arrangement by which the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad reaches 
 
 Indianapolis, Ind. 
 
 Kruzan, G. W., farmer, Vigo County, Ind. 
 
 No demand for negro labor in Indiana. 
 
 Wages and feeling of old colored settlers. 
 
 Number of immigrants arrived in that county. 
 
 The old settlers’ (negroes) condition. 
 
 Effect of their associations with whites... 
 
 Lamb, John E., Terre Haute, Ind. 
 
 Lawyer, prosecuting attorney three years it the circuit court., 
 
 Number of colored voters in Vigo County. 
 
 Disfranchisement and other punishments for felonies.. 
 
 Number of exodus paupers in Terre Haute. 
 
 Walker sent them; who Walker is.. 
 
 No demand among farmers for unskilled negro laborers. 
 
 Republicans in Terre Haute favoring exodus. 
 
 Poll of Terre Haute and population. 
 
 No knowledge of threats made against negroes coming there. 
 
 Political aspect of the exodus. 
 
 Laws of North Carolina: 
 
 Tage. 
 
 156 
 
 156 
 
 157 
 
 157 
 
 158 
 
 158 
 
 159 
 
 160 
 
 244 
 
 245 
 
 245 
 245,247 
 
 246 
 
 246 
 
 247 
 
 248 
 
 248 
 
 249 
 
 249 
 
 250 
 250 
 
 250 
 
 251 * 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 414 
 
 415 
 
 415 
 
 416 
 416 
 418 
 149 
 149 
 
 149 
 
 149.155 
 
 150 
 
 150.156 
 
 151 
 
 152 
 
 152 
 
 153 
 
 154 
 
 Act to establish county governments.. 433 
 
 Act to establish municipal corporations. 434 
 
 Act of landlord and tenant. 434 
 
 Lewman, M. T., Greencastle, Putnam County, Indiana. 162 
 
 Sheriff of the county; length of term. 163 
 
 Punishments for larceny and felonies. 163 
 
 No demand for negro laborers. 163 
 
 Concerning articles urging exodus and referring to political objects. 164 
 
 Knows Warner, who verities his testimony. 165 
 
 Concerning Mace, an agent in the emigrant business. 166 
 
 About John H. Clay’s (colored preacher) letter inviting negroes to Indiana. 166 
 
 About circular and conduct of Williams, negro agent of exodus. 167 
 
 Circular from Greencastle Banner circulated in the South. 167 
 
 Employment of whites and laborers in Indiana. 168 
 
 Farmers oppose the exodus. 168 
 
 Who employs the negroes, and reasons why. 168,170 
 
 The process by which exodusters are now being introduced.. 169 
 
 Desire among the immigrants to return to North Carolina. 169 
 
 Interview with Fields, Republican, from North Carolina.,. 170 
 
 How he made acquaintance with Heath, the exodus agent. 171 
 
 Heath’s explanation of the objects and uses of the exodus. 171,173 
 
 Heath sent by Holloway, in a postal car, free. 171,172 
 
 Thomas’s statement that money was provided for transportation. 174 
 
442 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 • Pag e. 
 
 Display and procession of first exodusters at Greencastle. 174 
 
 Population of Putuam County, and products. 174 
 
 Objection to the negroes because not self-sustaining. 176 
 
 Comparison between negro and Irish emigrants. 177 
 
 No dematid for the negro’s labor. 177 
 
 Negroes want to go back ; reasons assigned. 178 
 
 About the houses burned in Russellville Township... 178 
 
 Threats made by both parties against the paupers. 178 
 
 Concerning circulars and papers which he bought. 180 
 
 Democrats believe it to be a political movement. 180 
 
 Why they oppose and denounce the exodus. 180 
 
 How and when he met Heath and what occurred. 181 
 
 Conspiracy to get the negroes into the State to vote. 182 
 
 Martindale’s connection with Heath. 185 
 
 Reynolds’s, mail agent at Indianapolis, complicity in the movement. 185 
 
 Republican papers do not denounce the exodus.. 185 
 
 Belief and reasons for thinking the movement a Republican scheme. 186 
 
 What Republicans oppose the exodus, and why. 186,188 
 
 How many negroes have found employment, and wTiere. 187 
 
 Papers captured from Heath implicating Holloway aud others. 189 
 
 Reasons for securing the papers as evidence, &c. 189 
 
 Objections to paupers coming in such large numbers .. 190 
 
 Loftin,F. B., residence, Kinston, N.C. 314 
 
 Lawyer in active practice among criminals. 314 
 
 No distinctions made on account of color. 315 
 
 Colored men on juries. 315 
 
 More whites convicted than negroes. 315 
 
 Exodus affecting farming operations. 315 
 
 Contracts; how made with tenants... 315 
 
 Negroes vote freely ; no political persecution.*... 315 
 
 Negroes ostracize negro Democrats; cases cited.. 316 
 
 Indiana movement, influence of. 316 
 
 Decrease of exodus. 316 
 
 Business speculation and political movement. 316 
 
 White Republicans in North Carolina do not favor it. 316 
 
 Officers in county Republicans. 316 
 
 Perry an employd of Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. 317 
 
 Courts zealous-to prevent differences between races. 317 
 
 Lowery, Wiley (colored), Kinston, Lenoir County, N. C. 304 
 
 Drayman and storekeeper. 304 
 
 County commissioner eight years.... 304 
 
 Perry’s speeches and inducements the cause of the negroes leaving. 304 
 
 Secret societies; price of admission, object, &c. 304 
 
 Reasons for exodus. 305 
 
 Wages paid in North Carolina. 305 
 
 Time of hiring workers. 305 
 
 Blacks preferred as workmen. 305 
 
 Election privileges of negro voters.. 305 
 
 Negroes on juries. 306 
 
 Negro county commissioners and other officers..... 306 
 
 Equal convictions. 306 
 
 Education in all branches same to all colors. 306 
 
 Republican in politics. 306 
 
 Was born free. 306 
 
 Owner of property. 307 
 
 Duties as county commissioner. 307 
 
 Republican officials aud Democrats in the county. 308 
 
 Highest court in State and its functions. 308 
 
 County courts ; functions.. 308 
 
 County judges appointed by legislature. 308 
 
 School term aud advantages. 309 
 
 Colored people all Republicans. 309 
 
 No complaints among colored people. 309 
 
 Exodus caused by private speculators. 309 
 
 Perry sells bogus tickets ; cases cited. 310 
 
 Manson, Gen. M. D., auditor of State, Indianapolis, Ind. 337 
 
 Served in Forty-second Congress; also in war. 337 
 
 Condition of negro immigrants. 337 
 
 Concerning the charity extended.338 
 
INDEX. 
 
 443 
 
 Page. 
 
 Constitution of Indiana prohibits colored immigration. 338 
 
 No mixed schools in the State. 339 
 
 No laborers of this kind wanted... 339 
 
 Wages of Indiana and North Carolina compared. 339 
 
 Classes of rich people in Indiana. 340 
 
 Welcome to Irishmen and negroes compared. 340 
 
 Colonizing voters from Kentucky. 341 
 
 Concerning Heath. 342 
 
 Reasons for negroes doing better in North Carolina. 343 
 
 Curse of the South, carpet-bag rule . 343 
 
 Tissue ballots and elections in the South. 344 
 
 Definition of bulldozing. 344 
 
 Concerning Williams, Republican candidate in Cincinnati. 345 
 
 Maynard, J. B., journalist, Indianapolis. 410 
 
 Concerning interviews with immigrants. 410 
 
 Standing appeals for charity, effects. 411 
 
 Pauper immigration ; objections to. 411 
 
 Republicans and journals foster exodus.. .. 411 
 
 Farmers say there is no demand for laborers. 412 
 
 McCroskey, P. H., builder, Terre Haute. 420 
 
 Poverty of people and surplus of laborers.. 420 
 
 Origin of colored settlement in Vigo County. 421 
 
 Walker’s arrangements to introduce voters. 422 
 
 Condition of immigrants in Terre Haute. 422 
 
 People don’t want negroes and paupers to come. 423 
 
 Mendenhall, H. W., Washington, D. C. 80 
 
 First cass, clerk in Treasury Department, revenue marine service, from In¬ 
 diana . 80 
 
 A member of the board of audit of Wall’s society. 80 
 
 Knew the circular or appeal was being circulated. 81 
 
 Never saw the books or records of the society. 81 
 
 Knows nothing about demand for labor in Indiana. 81 
 
 Transactions of the Emigrant Aid Association. 81 
 
 Why favors the exodus, to get them to vote in Indiana... 83 
 
 Republican in polities; views are merely personal and independent. 83 
 
 Had correspondence on the subject; refused to tell with whom. 84 
 
 United States Marshal Dudley, Doctor Elbert, and others held his views.. 84 
 
 Reference to Governor Hendricks’ charges against the exodus move¬ 
 ment . 85 
 
 How and when the movement was started. 85 
 
 Concerning the suffering of the negroes in Indiaua. 87 
 
 Conversations with members of Congress on the matter... 87 
 
 Concerning the number of negro voters needed to carry the State. 87 
 
 The limit, when the exodus there should cease. 88 
 
 Seldom reads Democratic papers; don’t believe all he sees in Republican 
 
 papers. 88 
 
 Opinion concerning the southerners’ treatment of negroes. 
 
 Confirmed by the report of the Teller committee... 89 
 
 Suffering and destitution of negroes in Indiana. 89 
 
 Mills, Thomas P., Indianapolis, Ind. (Republican). 201 
 
 Wanted 20,000 bucks , “ buck niggers” in Indiana, now. 201 
 
 Wants their Republican votes distributed in close counties.201,204,205 
 
 Overdone the exodus, by too many women and children coming. 201 
 
 His opinion concerning their uses as voters, shared by intelligent Repub¬ 
 licans generally. 202 
 
 Republican papers approve the idea and plan . 202 
 
 Martlndale’s paper (Indianapolis Journal), does not disapprove. 202 
 
 About the money raised to send negroes to Greencastle. 203 
 
 Reynolds got the tickets ; number and price. 2()3 
 
 Does not know of any Republican organization to operate the exodus by 
 
 stirring up discontent, etc.. ... 204 
 
 Business interest in getting tickets ; profit made off of Perry. 204 
 
 Distribution of the negroes; how and why. 205 
 
 Condition of the exodusters in Indianapolis. 20(5 
 
 His contact with negroes purely business; his feeling merely sentimental 206 
 
 Money raised used to help the destitute . 206 
 
 Democratic opposition because of certainty of negroes voting Republican 
 
 ticket. 207 
 
 Employment of colored men throws whites out of place. 207 
 
444 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Believes a colored man better for the country in Indiana than a Democrat 207 
 
 Morris, L. C. (Republican), railioad passenger agent, Indianapolis. 346 
 
 Bought tickets for immigrants.. 347 
 
 How money was obtained for tickets. 347 
 
 Number of exodusters in Indiana. 348 
 
 Ma jority unemployed. 348 
 
 Republicans do not depend on negroes to carry the election.... 349 
 
 Morris, Virling K., Indianapolis, Ind. 194 
 
 Real-estate agent and railroad-ticket dealer; a Republican. 194 
 
 About interview with Perry and Williams concerning exodus. 195 
 
 Got scalp tickets aud charged two dollars commission for Perry and Will¬ 
 iams to return to Washington. 196 
 
 No feeling but that of the money he could make out of emigrants. 197 
 
 Idea of selling laudato the exodnsters an object in having them come. 198 
 
 O’Hara, James E. (colored), Enfield, Halifax G’ouuty, North Carolina. 49 
 
 Lawyer and Republican official since 1863 . 49, 65 
 
 Contestant for second Congressional district. 49, 68 
 
 Condition of the negroes and whites in North Carolina. . 49 
 
 Credit system a serious injury. 49 
 
 Quality of land and success of farmers.... 50,53 
 
 Landlord and tenant act; effects of, on all. 5L 
 
 Second district, place from which exodus principally occurs. 51 
 
 Influences operating to cause the hegira, euimisaries, &c. 52 
 
 Characteristics of the negro, credulity, &c.. 52 
 
 Education, taxes, increase of facilities, asylums... 54 
 
 Character of class leaving the State.. 55 
 
 Negro owners of lands ; tenacity of their hold. 56 
 
 Less prejudice against color in North Carolina than in the North. 57 
 
 Practice at the bar, equality of rights, juries, &c. 57 
 
 No true bill can be found unless a colored man on the jury. 58 
 
 Tax laws equal in operation ou all persons. 59 
 
 Election frauds and system of counting, <fcc. 69 
 
 Punishment of crimes equal. 60 
 
 Social equality in South. 61 
 
 Concerning political proscription, Ku-klnx, &c. 61 
 
 Opposition by colored leaders to the exodus. 63,69 
 
 Wages anti employment of laborers in North Carolina compared with In¬ 
 diana. 04,68 
 
 Reference to Clarke’s paper. 432 
 
 Otey, Charles N. (colored), Washington, D. C. 101 
 
 Editor of Argus, teacher in Howard University; educated in Oberlin,0.. 101 
 
 Native of Raleigh, N. C., visits home every year. 101 
 
 General Condition of colored people in North Carolina.. 102 
 
 Refers to Mendenhall’s speech, to us negroes as voters in Indiana. 102 
 
 Refers to delusions practiced on his people. 103 
 
 Referred to effects of his visits and treatment in North Carolina. 103 
 
 Opinion of negro editors and leaders concerning the outrage of exodus... 104 
 
 Poverty and misery of colored people in Oberlin, compared to South. 104 
 
 Comparison of laws of North Carolina with those of other States. 104 
 
 Schools, asylums, professions, &c. 105 
 
 Extract denouncing exodus from People’s Advocate (colored editor) and 
 
 Journal of Industry. 105 
 
 Denunciation of exodus made by Hon. J. H. Harris (colored). 106 
 
 Conference concerning exodus at Raleigh.•. 106 
 
 A Radical Republican in politics. 108 
 
 Negroes in North Carolina dictate policy of the Republican party. 109 
 
 Refers to article in National Republican, attacking his testimony. 110 
 
 Explains his position with regard to his race and the party. Ill 
 
 Roanoke News, statistics by Jas. E. O. Hira, stating amount of lands 
 
 owned by negroes in Halifax County. 112 
 
 Magnitude of the exodus. 115 
 
 Grievances, and how remedied in North Carolina. 116 
 
 Whipping and other punishments of whites aud blacks. 117 
 
 Disfrauctmment laws apply to both races. 117 
 
 Social relations and good feeling between races. 118 
 
 Concerning the Republicans, who foster the exodus for political reasons. 119 
 
 Reference to accusation against Jim Harris for defalcation. 121 
 
 Speeches made by prominent colored leaders in North Carolina against 
 
 movement. 122 
 
INDEX. 445 
 
 Page. 
 
 Dissatisfaction, causes of, among colored people in South. 122 
 
 Favors exodus, where there is cause and reason for it. 123 
 
 No oppression in North Carolina. 124 
 
 Reason why whites are opposed to the exodus. 125 
 
 White and colored papers and people in North Corolina of all races op¬ 
 posed to exodus. 126 
 
 About those negroes who located in Indiana. 127 
 
 Does not believe they are doing as well in Indiana as they can in North 
 
 Carolina. 128 
 
 Educational advantages compared between Indiana and North Carolina.. 129 
 
 Objects and constitution of Wall’s Society. 130 
 
 Abolishment of whipping-post in North Carolina; punishments. 130 
 
 Convicts in the penitentiary; number of whites and blacks. 131 
 
 Disfranchisement for felony. 131 
 
 How the law bears harder on blacks than whites. 132 
 
 No ill treatment of convicts in North Carolina.„. 132 
 
 Perry, Samuel L. (colored), North Carolina.. 280 
 
 Commencement of the exodus idea in 1872 . 280 
 
 Causes of movement in 1879. 281 
 
 Formation of colonies to go from North Carolina. 281 
 
 Petition and proclamation with 168 names. 281 
 
 Method of raising money to operate the colony. 281 
 
 Proposed destination of colonists.. 282 
 
 Diversion from original plan. 283 
 
 Trip to Indiana; results of conference there. 283 
 
 His services and line of operations . 284 
 
 Complaints of oppression ; dissatisfaction with laws in North Carolina.. 285 
 A magistrate in La Grange Vidette in 1874, said “A nigger is no more a 
 
 human being than a horse is a mule”. 286 
 
 Expression of the newspaper press generally. 286 
 
 Feeling in the event of Democratic supremacy. 286 
 
 Liberia movement. 287 
 
 No social equality or equal rights in Indiana. 287 
 
 11 Would rather live in hell than in Indiana”. 287,295 
 
 Is a prominent Southern politician. 288 
 
 Deception practiced by him and Williams’s circulars. 288 
 
 Indiana Republicans named as being friendly to movement. 290 
 
 Six hundred and twenty dollars raised in Indianapolis to pay fares. 290 
 
 The telegram from Ivoontz concerning the money. 291 
 
 Object of the dispatch and understanding concerning it. 292 
 
 Interview with Mills, about the price of tickets referred to in Mills’s tes¬ 
 timony on page 204. 292 
 
 Arrested in North Carolina ; why, and by whom. 289, 293 
 
 Amount of bonds and forfeiture. 293 
 
 Concerning politics in the movement.. 293 
 
 Troubles between white and black Republicans in North Carolina. 293 
 
 Feeling in Ku-klux times. 294 
 
 Age; once a slave; married, &c. 294 
 
 About the dispatch to Tinney concerning $650 ... 295 
 
 Concerning Morris, scalper ; speculation on his tickets. 296 
 
 As agent acting for Baltimore aud Ohio Railroad ; cheated. 297 
 
 Concerning schools and insane asylums in Indiana compared to North 
 
 Carolina. 297 
 
 Laws in North Carolina complained of.. 297 
 
 Concerning complaints of landlord and tenant act . 298 
 
 Negro magistrates aud the law abolishing them. 299 
 
 t tatement in circulars that slavery will be established again. 300 
 
 Acknowledge he lied to push the movement in his own interest. 300 
 
 Accusation against him of forging school orders. 300 
 
 A property owner ; how mortgaged and sold. 301 
 
 Secret meetings ; reasons for. 301 
 
 Certificates from whites and colored, Democrats and Republicans, concern¬ 
 ing his innocence of forgery .. 302 
 
 Fifteenth amendment a dead letter.. 303 
 
 Negroes ceased to vote because cheated out of right. 303 
 
 Old masters treat negroes as servants and not as citizens. 303 
 
 Opinions of, on exodus. 432 
 
 Rankin, J. W., pastor of Congregational Church, Washington. 3 
 
 Auditor, by consent of use of name, of board of Aid Association. 3 
 
416 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Signed orders on treasurer. 3 
 
 Not acquainted with operations of the society. 4 
 
 Never read the circular and never knew of the use Wall was making of it. 4 
 
 Ray, Scott, Shelbyviile, Irul. 321 
 
 Lawyer and editor Shelby Democratic Volunteer. 321 
 
 No demand for negro immigrants. 321,326 
 
 Character of immigrants. 322 
 
 Interview with Byers in which the object of Republican party declared.. 322,324 
 
 Concerning Wright, colored agent. 323 
 
 Negroes can exercise rights in Indiana. . 323 
 
 About the alleged mob. 324 
 
 Number of negroes to be used. 325 
 
 Negro immigration against the interests of people. 326 
 
 Riguey, S. W., farmer, Vigo County, Indiana. 418 
 
 No demand for foreign labor. 419 
 
 Circular published by Walker. 420 
 
 Female help wanted. 420 
 
 Ruffin, Green (colored), Wilson County, North Carolina. 379 
 
 Experience in Indiana.'. 379,382 
 
 Freely votes Republican ticket every time in North Carolina. 380 
 
 Inducements that took him to Indiana. 380 
 
 Comparison between North Carolina and Iudiana. 381 
 
 “ Going home to die there”. 383 
 
 Russ, Gen. G. W., adjutant-general, Indianapolis. 352 
 
 No demand for negro laborers. 352 
 
 Colored people in Indiana opposed to exodus. 353 
 
 Thinks it has a political object; why.. 354 
 
 Charges against Democratic party of sympathizing with rebellion. 355 
 
 “Our colored citizens;” article from Journal. 355 
 
 Report of Emigrant Aid Society of Indianapolis. 355 
 
 Republican press encouraging exodus. 358 
 
 Reference to Mill’s 20,000 bucks. ... 358 
 
 No property qualification in Indiana. 359 
 
 Number arrived in State. 360 
 
 Condition of them. 361 
 
 Comparison of wages in Indiana and North Carolina. 361 
 
 Amount raised for relief of negroes. 362 
 
 Republican sympathy. 363 
 
 Russell, J. H., undertaker, Indianapolis, Ind. 317 
 
 Causes of deaths, diseases, poverty, &c. 318 
 
 Democrat, but not strong. 318 
 
 No demaud for labor, idle people, &c. 319 
 
 Months of most mortality. 319 
 
 Negroes not liked as laborers in Indiana. 320 
 
 General desire among exodusters to return. 320 
 
 Republican politicians in Indianapolis and Indiana who are identified with 
 
 negro exodus. 320 
 
 Movement hurting the Republican party ; how. 320 
 
 Simmons, Mingo (colored), Greene County, North Carolina. 371 
 
 Experience in Indiana. 371 
 
 Wages, labor, treatment in Iudiana. 372 
 
 How he was induced to leave North Carolina. 374 
 
 Perry’s influence and operations. 375 
 
 Deceptions by Republicans in Indiana. 376 
 
 Schools in North Carolina. 377 
 
 Poor Republicans in Indiana don’t want negro immigrants. 378 
 
 Going home to North Carolina to stay. 378 
 
 Stack, M. W., chief of police, Terre Haute, Ind. 330 
 
 Condition; destitution of negroes there. 330 
 
 No demand for pauper labor in city or country. 330 
 
 Reception of new comers bv old settlers—negroes. 331 
 
 Stevenson, Win. M., Dr., Terre Haute. 423 
 
 Unskilled labor in excess and no demand. 423 
 
 No necessity for the exodus to his vicinity. 424 
 
 Condition, poverty, distress, &c., of exodusters. 424 
 
 Walker’s proclamation for laborers a fraud. 425 
 
 Sypbax, J din B. (colored), justice of peace, Alexandria, Va. 384 
 
 Republican. 391 
 
 Charges against Windom. 391 
 
INDEX. 447 
 
 Tage. 
 
 Charges of lunacy made against each other. 392 
 
 Tinney, William B., Indianapolis, Ind. 191 
 
 Agent Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, at Indianapolis. 191 
 
 Concerning telegram sent by Koontz about $650 for tickets. 192 
 
 Parties from whom collected and object of expenditure. 192 
 
 No personal interest or politics in the matter. 193 
 
 Large number of arrivals of negro immigrants in Indiana. 194 
 
 Reynolds, mail agent, not on pay-roll of Baltimore and Ohio Railroad_ 194 
 
 Tullock, Thomas L., assistant postmaster Washington, D. C . 1 
 
 Auditor of Emigrant Aid Society. 1 
 
 Never saw the circular with his name appended. 1, 3 
 
 Never performed duty as an auditor, or otherwise, in the society, except to 
 
 sign orders on treasurer. 2 
 
 Where money was derived from. 2 
 
 Took no interest in the negroes; never saw them. 2 
 
 Never had anything to do with the organization . 3 
 
 Van Valzer, Robert, Terre Haute, Ind. 161 
 
 Dentist ; member of legislature from Vigo County... 161 
 
 Suffering because of want of employment. 161 
 
 Distressing condition of negro immigrants in Terre Haute. 161 
 
 Testimony that the negroes were brought there to vote for Republicans.. 162 
 
 Wall, O. S. B. (colored), Washington City, D. C. 2 
 
 Identified paper. See Appendix, Exhibit A.... 2 
 
 Biography, and services in official employ. 20 
 
 Lawyer, president of Emigrant Aid Society.... 21 
 
 Organization and objects of the association. 21 
 
 Branch societies, where operated. 22 
 
 The secretaries : “a handsome mulatto”... 22 
 
 The society, “ like the English government, without a written constitu¬ 
 tion”. 22,23 
 
 Plan of operation of the society... 23 
 
 Demand for labor in Indiana .. 24 
 
 Number of emigrants sent out by his society. 25 
 
 Disclaims all knowledge “of the other end of the line”... 25 
 
 Advantages of North Carolina; eulogy on it. 2G 
 
 Evils complained of; schooling, &c. 27 
 
 Comparison between North Carolina and Indiana. 27 
 
 No political or social strife in North Carolina. 28 
 
 Poverty and stationary condition of negroes in North Carolina. 29 
 
 Vote of Indiana against permitting negroes to come into the State. 29 
 
 Reference to circular calling on negroes “to leave the South before the 
 
 census-taker uses his name,” <&c. 29 
 
 Object to cut down Congressional representation in the South.. 29 
 
 Trausfer of a large number, better for those who remain. 31 
 
 Arrangements for railroad transportation. 32 
 
 Drawback paid by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad on his emgrants. 32 
 
 Price of tickets; how contributions are got and used.. 33 
 
 Concerning agents of the society operating in North Carolina. 34 
 
 Comments on Cromwell’s testimony. 34 
 
 The society 7 does not pay the way of those who return to North Carolina. • 37 
 
 Where the negroes were sent to in the West. 25, 37 
 
 Baltimore and Ohio Railroad carried a large number free.. 38 
 
 Concerning laws in North Carolina, education, »Vc. 39 
 
 Colored people bulldozing each other. 40, 42 
 
 The word “white” stricken from constitution in Kansas. 40 
 
 Contributions by Douglass, Ingersoll, and others. 41 
 
 Douglass’s opposition to exodus... 41 
 
 Valley of the Mississippi the first field of operations. 41 
 
 Employment of immigrants in Indiana. 42 
 
 Negroes in North Carolina and emigrants all Republicans. 42 
 
 Explanation how O’Hara was counted out in North Carolina. 42, 43 
 
 No emigration from close districts in North Carolina. 43 
 
 Philosophy of the movement. 45 
 
 Reports to him from Perry and Williams. 46, 48 
 
 Letters on the subject, where from and tenor of. 48 
 
 Copies of letters from files of National Emigrant Aid Society'. 99 
 
 Rev. Heath on the idea of leaving before census is taken. 90 
 
 From Scott (an exoduster), Walker (mail agent Terre Haute, Iud.), etc .. 91,92 
 
 Concerning Williams, of Cincinnati, candidate for legislature. 345 
 
448 
 
 INDEX 
 
 Page. 
 
 Warnock, Mr., Greencastle, Indiana. 165 
 
 Printer in Banner office. 165 
 
 Identifies Langsdale’s writing and certain documents. 165 
 
 Circulars signed by Rev. J. H. Clay inciting exodus. 190 
 
 Concerning honor among printers. 190 
 
 Woods, W. H. (Republican); barber; Indianapolis. 354 
 
 Member of committee for aiding refugees. 364 
 
 How money was secured for aid. 365 
 
 Contributions from Republican office-holders. 366 
 
 Political object exposed; how. 367 
 
 Writes for colored paper. 369 
 
 Negro emigrants unemployed. 369 
 
 Rivalry in emigrant aid societies (funds). 370 
 
 Wooten, C. S., Lenoir County, North Carolina.. 218 
 
 Farmer ; origin of exodus on his x^lace ; when. 218 
 
 Description of departure of negroes. 218 
 
 How hands are employed in North Carolina. 219 
 
 Letters from old tenants who want to get back from Indiana.. 220,225 
 
 Idea of negroes being oppressed in North Carolina a humbug. 222, 224 
 
 Method of doing business on North Carolina plantations. 223 
 
 Perry’s misrepresentations and influence among negroes in North Carolina 223 
 
 Freedom in voting and other privileges or rights... 224 
 
 Proportion of men, women, and children among the exodusters. 225 
 
 White laborers taking the places of exodusters in North Carolina. 225 
 
 Abundance of labor in North Carolina.. 225 
 
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