YALE UNIVERSITY
LIBRARY

SPEECHES OF
THE IHGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX.
VOL. III.

StraTian and Preston,
Printers-Strset, London.

THE

SPEECHES

OF

THE RIGHT HONOURABLE

CHARLES JAMES FOX,

IN THE

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

IN SIX VOLUMES.
VOL. III.

LONDON:
PRINTED FOR LONGMAN, HUBST, REES, OHME, AND BROWN,
PATERNOSTER-ROW J
AND J. RIDGWAY, PICCADILLY.
V 1 8.15-

CONTENTS

OF

THE THIRD VOLUME.

1784.

July

16.

Aug.

2.

10.

1785

Jan.

25.

Feb.

9-

21.

March

9-

Feb.

28.

22.
March
3-
11.
May
12.
19.
,23.
3°-
July
22.
April
18.
20.
29.
1786.
Jan.
24.
Feb.
»7'
March 3,
6.
17-
Feb.
27.
Page
Mr. Pitt's Bill for the Government of India  1
Bill for the Restoration of the Estates forfeited
in the Rebellion of 1745  ....  14
Commutation Act  15
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session  21
Westminster Scrutiny  26
The Same  34
The Same  41
Nabob of Arcot's Debts  ,  45
Irish Commercial Propositions  ,54
The Same  „. 61
The Same  64
The Same  69
The Same  102
The Same  ic6
The Same  122
The Same  13S
Mr. Pitt's Motion for a Reform in the Represent
ation of the People in Parliament  145
Repeal of the Cotton Tax  152
Mr. Fox's Motion on the State of the Public
Revenue  15;
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session  166
Mr. Burke's Accusation of Mr. Hastings  ;... 179
The Same  184
The Same  ,   ,  189
The Same  ,  „  191
Mr. Pitt's Motion for Fortifying the Dock Yards 1 98
CONTENTS.

April
June

13

1787.
Jan. 23.
Feb. 2.
5-
9-
12.»5-
16.
21.
March 7.
Feb. 7.
April 2.
March 28.
April 24.3°-
Nov. 27.
Dec. 5.
10.11.
12.
1788.
Feb. 8.
14.
March, j.7-

Page
Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax  202
, Mr Pitt's Plan for the Reduction of the Na
tional Debt  206
Arrears of the Civil List  214
Articles of Charge against Mr Hastings — Ro-
hilla Charge  216
Articles of Charge against Mir. Hastings — Be
nares Charge  244
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session  251
Treaty of Commerce with France  260
The Same  263
The Same  268
The Same  272
The Same  284
The Same  286
The Same  292
Mr. Fox's Motion respecting the Nature and
Extent of Parliamentary Addresses to the
King  298
Articles of Charge against Mr. Hastings  304
The Same  307
Mr. Beaufoy's Motion for the Repeal of the
Test and Corporation Acts  310
Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop
Tax  318
The Prince of Wales's Debts  321
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session  320
Subsidiary Treaty with the Landgrave of Hesse
Cassel  538
Augmentation of the Land Forces  3*0
Impeachment of Mr. Hastings  546
Right of Petition  y-2
Sir Elijah Impey's Complaint of sundry Libels
published against him  ,,-
Mr. Fox's Complaint of a Pamphlet respecting
the Impeachment against Mr. Hastings  s6»
East India Declaratory Bill  ,gg
The Same  .".  „ ,*r
The Same  ,-, t
Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop
Tax  379

CONTENTS. Til
Page
Conduct of the Admiralty with regard to the
Promotion of Admirals  382
Abolition of the Slave Trade  387
Charges against Sir Elijah Impey  392
King's Illness — Regency  ,  398
The Same  405
The Same  414
The Same  428
The Same  438
The Same  446
' Address on the King's Recovery  458
Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax 46 1
" Mr. Hastings's Petition, complaining of Words
spoken by Mr Burke in Westminster Hall ... 465
May 1. The Same  474
4. The Same  ,  ,  ,  ,  484

SPEECHES
OF THE
RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX,
fyc. fyc.

Mr. Pitt's Bill for the Government of India,
July 1 6, 1784,
ON the 6th of July, Mr. Pitt obtained leave to bring in a bill
for the better regulation and management of the affairs of
the East India company, and of the British possessions in India.
This act, though framed upon the same model with that brought
in by Mr. Pitt in the last parliament, yet differed from it con
siderably in several material points. The powers of the board
of controul, which, in contrast to the plan of the late ministry,
and in compliance with the temper of those times, was kept as sub
ordinate as possible, were now greatly enlarged. In cases of
urgency, which might not admit the delays of consultation, and
in cases of secrecy, which might not admit of previous commu
nication, they were enabled to issue and transmit their own
orders to India, without their being subject to the revision of
the court, of directors. It also vested in the governor general
and council an absolute power over the other presidencies in all
points relative to transactions with the country powers, and in
all applications of the revenues and forces in time of war, with
a power of suspension in case of disobedience. — The second part
of the bill contained a variety of internal regulations respecting
the affairs of India. The clauses relative to the debts of the
nabob of Arcot, to the disputes between him and the rajah of
Tanjore, and to the relief of dispossessed zemindars, and other native
landholders, were adopted from Mr. Fox's India bill, with some
exceptions and limitations, Various restrictions were also laid
upon the patronage of the directors, and retrenchments directed
to be made in the company's establishments. The third part
of the bill related to the punishment of Indian delinquency. All
British subjects were made amenable to the courts of justice ip
vol, 111. 33

2 mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. [July 10.
England for all acts done in India. The receiving of presents was
declared to be extortion, and disobedience of orders, and all cor
rupt bargains to be misdemeanors, and punishable as such. Power
was given to the governors of the several settlements to seize all
persons suspected of carrying on illicit correspondence, and, if ne-.
cessary, to send them to England. Every company's servant was
required, within two months after his return to England, to deliver
in upon oath to the court of exchequer, an inventory of his real and
personal estates, and a copy thereof to the court of directors for the
inspection of the proprietors ; and, in case any complaint should
be made thereupon by the board of controul, the court of directors,
or any three proprietors possessing stock to the amount conjunc
tively of io,oooZ. the court of exchequer were required to examine
the person complained of upon oath, and to imprison him until he
should have answered the interrogatories put to him to their satis
faction ; and any neglect or concealment herein was punished by
imprisonment, forfeiture of all his estates, both real and personal,
and an incapacity of ever serving the company again. — Lastly; for
the more speedy and effectual prosecution of persons charged with
crimes committed in the East Indies, a new court of justice was
appointed, consisting of three judges, appointed by the three courts,
four peers, and six members of the House of Commons : the four
peers to be taken by lot out of a list of 26, to be chosen by ballot
at the commencement of every session of parliament, and the six
commoners out of a list of 40 members, chosen in the same man
ner ; liberty being given to the party accused, and to the prose- .
eutor, to challenge a certain number of the same. The act also di
rects, that all depositions of witnesses taken in India, and all writ
ings received by the court of directors, and copies of those sent out
by them, shall be received as legal evidence. The judgment of the
court is made final, and to extend to fine and imprisonment, and to
declaring the party incapable of ever serving the company in any
capacity whatever. The bill met with a strenuous opposition in al
most every stage. On the 16th of July, upon the motion for going
into a committee on the bill,
Mr. Fox rose, and discussed the principle of the bill. He
began with saying, that he rose in the present stage to object to
the speaker's leaving the chair, because he found himself under
the necessity of objecting to the bill toto caiio — in all its parts
and in its fundamental principles. He had flattered himself
that the right honourable gentleman's second and third propo
sitions, namely, those relating to the regulations, and the new-
judicature to be appointed for India, would be so far conform
able to the opinions which he held on the subject, that he
should have been able to have gone into the committee and
for this reason he had foreborne to say any thing on the second
reading of the bill ; but now that the bill was printed, and
that he was able to examine the two latter parts as well as the
first, he must freely and explicitly declare, that he objected to
the whole. He thought the principles of the bill the direct op-

1784O Mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. 3
posite of what they ought to be with regard to the regulations
as well as the government ; and he could never consent to the
institution of the sort of tribunal stated in the bill, without
giving up every principle on which he had been taught to ap
prove pf the criminal judicature of England.
As he objected, therefore, to the principle of the bill, the
present was the stage in which he must deliver his opinions.
He begged the House, at the same time, not to be deceived
by the distinctions which it was now the incessant practice to
make, between the principles and the objects of a bill. It was
lately become the practice to confound the one with the other.
It was often said to them, " What ! would you refuse to go into
the committee on a bill which has for its principle to reform
the abuses of India ? Would you object to a bill which is to
restore the zemindars to their possessions, and which is to,
punish delinquents?" They thus artfully confounded the
matter; for these were not the principles, but the objects of
the bill. The principles were very different ; and, to the prin
ciples, that was, to the foundations of the bill, the House
were ever to look ; and when these were not good, they were ^
not justifiable in going to a committee, merely because the end
was desirable. No man upon earth acknowledged with more
readiness than he did, the necessity of the object of the present
bill; no man would go greater lengths to accomplislr-it ; but-
he could not accept of the principles of this bill as the means;
much less could he believe that those means, if accepted, would
be effectual.
With regard to the first part of the bill, namely, the set
tlement of the government of India, he must observe, that dur
ing the discussions on the bill which he had the honour to
propose to the last parliament, it was asserted that he had vio-
iated the chartered rights of the company — and chartered
rights were of so sacred a nature, that nothing but extreme
necessity could justify their violation. The right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer had made the confession, that
necessities might arise to justify the rescinding of a charter ;
and it was well he did so; for if ever a charter was completely
and totally annulled, it was the charter of the East India
Company by the present bill. He by no mean brought this
as a charge against the right honourable gentleman : it was
his opinion that the charter of the company ought to be an
nulled : it had always been his opinion, that no charter ought
to exist pernicious to the community whom it affected, and
that the rights of a few ought not to stand in competition with,
the well-being and happiness of the whole. This had always
been his opinion, and the chancellor of the exchequer had come
over to it. He had abandoned Bis former ppinion on this
S 2

4 mr. pitt'sbill for the government of india. [July 16.
subject. He repeated, that he by no means brought this
against him as a charge; on the contrary, he wished to God
he had abandoned all his other opinions, and all the principles
on which he came into office — he should like him and his
ministry the better.
When the right honourable gentleman brought in his for
mer bill, he said that his entrenchment on the charter of the
company was not a violation, because he had the consent of
the company. On the present occasion, however, the House
had heard of no consent. The consent, indeed, which the
right honourable gentleman then stood upon was a fallacy ;
because in a community like the East India company, the con
sent of every individual proprietor was necessary to a surren
der, and could only make it legal ; for where every individual
proprietor of stock was concerned and involved, it was a fal
lacy to say that a resolution of the general court, hastily con
vened, poorly attended, or even consisting of a majority,
could make a surrender of the properties of those who were
absent. Then it was a delusion ; but here this circumstance
was wanting : there was no consent even hinted at, and in
reality none had been given. He begged, then, that they
might hear no more of his bill having violated chartered
rights, and that therefore it was not to be borne : the present
bill was guilty, if it was guilt, of equal violation ; and it had
this peculiar quality, that it violated the charters of the com
pany without promising to amend the general interests of the
empire. The right honourable gentleman had abandoned his ground
with respect to commissioners. He had adopted the notion
contained in his bill, of vesting the powers in the hands of
commissioners; and he must again repeat, that he wished to
God he had abandoned all his other principles. He wish--
ed he had abandoned the principles on which he came
into power — principles which were neither honourable to
himself nor safe for the country. The right honourable
gentleman, continued Mr. Fox, has taken notice of what my
honourable friehd, Mr. Francis, has said respecting the pre
amble of the bill.- In my mind, the observation of my ho
nourable friend is perfectly just; but the omission of the abuses
by the framers of the bill has been very artful. If they had
stated the grievances of the East Indies, they would have ex
posed the weakness of the bill ; for they would have shewn
that not one of its provisions was calculated to redress the"
grievances which the preamble would have stated to exist.
This is my idea, and I trust I shall be able to shew the House"
that it is a bill calculated to increase every principle that has
given ,rise to the calamities of India ; that instead of reforming
15 >

1784.] mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. 5
it is calculated to perpetuate the abuses which exist, and to
put the conclusive seal to the miserable system of that country.
What, Sir, are the principles of the calamities in India?
Are they, that worse men have been sent to India in the
government of our affairs, than those who go elsewhere, or;
who stay at home ? No : the men are not worse, but the
temptations to delinquency have been greater, and the greater
distance from the seat of government has given impunity to
abuse. If this is the source of the calamity, which I contend
it is, what is the remedy ? Surely, that the power shall in
future be given to persons on the spot here, who consequently
will neither have the temptations nor the impunity. Instead
of which the bill before us gives more temptation and power
to the governor m India. He is rendered infinitely more
capable of abuse, and he is set more above the reach of
punishment. What has been declared as the next principle
of our calamities ? That orders from home have been dis
obeyed in India, and that no instructions which have been
sent out have at any time been regarded. What is the evi
dent remedy for this evil ? Surely, to make the chief officer
in India so directly dependant on the source of government
at home, that he shall not have it in his power, whatever may
be his inclination, to disobey the orders which he may receive.
Instead of which, the bill adds- so considerably to the powers
of the governor there, that he has no check upon his am
bition. If the bill had been framed by the delinquents them
selves, it could not, in my mind, have been more directly
calculated to perpetuate the abuses. Whether the bill may
not have been framed by those delinquents, or at least by their
emissaries, is a matter which it is not our business to discuss,
whatever may be our suspicions.
My next principle, continued Mr. Fox, with regard to
India, always has been, that whoever has the government
ought also to have the patronage. The right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer may talk speciously in this
House about the division of the power and the patronage ;
but in my mind, if there be a receipt, a nostrum for the
making' of a weak government, it is by giving the power of
contriving measures to one, and the nomination of the per
sons who are to carry those measures into execution to
another. Nothing, in my mind, can be more clear than this pro
position, that the concerting of the measure, and the ap
pointing of the officer, ought to be in the same breast. In
stance a great army : If a plan of operations for an important
campaign Was concerted by one board, would it not be the
height of madness and absurdity that the power of nominat-
B 3

6* mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. [July io
ing the general who was to carry that plan into effect should
be trusted to another ? In such a ridiculous system, where
would be the responsibility ? The authors of the plan, if it
miscarried, would say the fault was in the officer. The no
minators of the officer would say it was in the plan. Oh but,
say the ministers, we know that such a system would be too
absurd to last, and therefore, you see, we have the power of
a negative. I am pleased that, they have any thing that looks
like unity; for surely nothing can be so ridiculous, and
nothing so childish, as to disjoin the patronage from the
government. If, for instance, the new commissioners should send out
instructions to check all farther accession of territory, all
future sanguinary measures, all rapaciousness and bWdshed,
and at the same time that the court of directors should appoint,
which it is very probable -they would do, Mr. Hastings to
carry their instructions into execution — does not the bare
statement of the case shew the complete absurdity of the
idea ? Theories which do not connect measures with men
are not theories for this world ; the)' are the chimeras with
which a recluse may divert his fancy, but they are not prin
ciples on which a statesman would found his system. Mr.
Hastings, for intance, has declared his mind. He has shewn
us, by the experience of mas»y years, that he determined to
disobey orders which tend to peace. But whst are all the
instances, compared to that daring act of disobedience, his
not carrying into execution the orders for the restoration of
Cheyt Sing? [Here Major Scott said across the table, " No
" such orders were ever sent."] Mr. Fox went on. He
thought there were; but should he be ordered to replace
Cheyt Sing, after he has declared that he will never consent
to so degrading an instruction, what must be the feelings and
sentiments of India on the occasion ? Would they not say,
these are pompous words ; you preach out charity to the ear ;
you say peace, peace, when there is no peace; you tell us that
the sanguinary system shall be no longer pursued, and in the
same breath you continue a person in power, of whom a
learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) some time ago, said, " that
he never went out of Bengal without carrying blood and
devastation in his train: that he never paid a visit to the
borders but for the imprisonment of some prince, or the ex
termination of a people." What other can we conceive of
such inconsistency, but that you design to cheat us ? We
can have no opinion that you are serious. You have all alono-
given the same instructions to the same man ; he has always
disobeyed them, and we, therefore, have no longer confidence
in your sincerity.

1784-! mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. 7
But the negative provides against the appointment of im
proper officers. The commissioners have a negative, and
therefore they have full power. Here, then, is the complete
annihilation "of the power of the company. Ministers take
the complete government into their hands, and here is a full
and direct violation of chartered rights. That the bill origi
nated in India, or that it was in all its parts suggested by men
who h.ad imbibed the politics of India, he verily believed. It
was a scheme of dark and delusive art, and seemed to be built
on the model of the attack made on the great mogul and the
king of Bengal. It worked upon the company's rights by
slow and gradual sap. The first assumption made by the
minister was the power of superintendence and control.
What he means by this power I cannot easily imagine. Does
lie mean such a superintendence and control as this House
has over ministers? No; for this Flouse has not the power
of giving official instructions. It is to be an " active con
trol :" and this is the next step. An active control is not a very
clear species of authority, and may be carried to a very great
length, until at last they give a full exposition of their views,
and seize upon every thing but the shew of authority. Such,
exactly, I am informed, was the plan by which the great
mogul and the king of Bengal were reduced to what they
now are.
To this artful and progressive scheme I peremptorily
object. If it be right to vest the powers of the court of
directors in a board of privy counsellors, to which however I
should object, it should, at any rate, be done openly. A
great nation ought never to descend to gradual and insidious
incroachment. Do what you wish for openly ; and shew the
company that what you dared to do, you dare to justify. If
the question were merely, whether the powers ought to be
continued in the hands of the directors, or put into the
hands of a board of privy counsellors, I should not hesitate
one moment to give it to the latter; but, unquestionably, I
do not approve of the idea of giving it to a board of privy
counsellors. The great object in settling the government of India is to
contrive the, means of separating the commerce from the
revenue. The right honourable the chancellor of the exche
quer, who is infinitely more fond of talking about looking
our situation in the face than he is of really doing so, has
not upon this occasion, and in this instance, looked our situ
ation in the face. I took much pains in my enquiry concern*
ing the commerce and the revenue. I consulted with every
one capable of giving me instruction, or of suggesting the
means ; but I could not devise the means of really and bene-
B A

8 mr. pitt's bill for the government of indiai [July i°-
ficially separating the commerce from the revenue. I found
that they were so involved, as to be for a time at least inse
parable. I found that the revenue was absolutely necessary to
the conducting of the commerce, and that the commerce was
essential to the collection of the revenue. I felt the difficulty;
I agreed with some of the most intelligent men, that a sepa
ration might be effected by time, but I looked our situation in
the face* and finding the necessity of the state called for the go
vernment of India, I took the commerce as well as the govern
ment. This was my measure, and the House knows the cry
which was circulated throughout the country. What is the mea
sure of the right honourable gentleman? The board may send
instructions to India in commercial matters, where they think
the revenue is concerned. The chancellor of the exchequer,
and one of the secretaries of state may do this. But if the
company should conceive that the subject of the instructions
is merely commercial, they may appeal — appeal to whom,
from whom ? Appeal from the chancellor of the exchequer,
and one of the principal secretaries of state, for the time
being, to the king in his council? What, will not the king
in his council advise and take the opinion of the chancellor
of the exchequer and the secretary of state ? Or is it insi
nuated by the bill, that the security of the company consists
in the appeal being from the ostensible advisers of the king
to the secret junto, who are really the efficient ministers of the
Country ? Is this, which has been with so much probability
suspected to be the case, now to be acknowledged ? Or is
the appeal any thing more than a fallacy and a farce ?
Here, then, is the difference between my abominable bill
and the bill of the right honourable gentleman ; between my
bill, which has excited so much clamour^ but upon which I
am ready now, and ever shall be, to appeal from the public
to the public; not doubting but that, however they were de
luded by the nonsense of epithets for a time, they will form
a true judgment at last. By my wicked bill the commerce
was taken as well as the government. By this bill, if the
commissioners do meddle with the commerce, the directors
have the glorious privilege of appealing from the minister to
the minister. My bill placed the commerce in the hands of
nine gentlemen, who either were at that time, or had been
formerly, in the direction, and who consequently were com
petent to. the care of it. This bill gives government, terri
tory, revenue, and commerce, to a board of privy counsellors.
This is a bill, in my mind, calculated to perpetuate weakness.
It perpetuates weakness by dividing the power. Leave the
entire powers with the directors, or take them entirely away.
There: is no middle course to be run.

1784-] mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. 9
I have been told since I came into the House this day,,
that the clause of secrecy is to be withdrawn. I am glad to
hear it, if it is meant fairly. It would have been highly ab
surd that such a contradictory system should have been esta
blished under the name of a government, where orders might
secretly be conveyed' to India by the commissioners, at the
very moment when they were giving their open countenance
to instructions to be sent from the directors of a quite con
trary tendency. It would have been a farce, a child's play,
rather than a government, to suffer such a scheme of dark
intrigue. I now come to speak of the influence which has been made
so much a topic of declamation and of clamour. I do not
scruple to say, that I would infinitely rather see the influence
erected at home than abroad,,because I am sure that at home
it would be much less than abroad. Will any man tell me,
that if Mr. Hastings had been at home he would have been
able to do the same things which, with his long arm, he has
been able to do in India? Could he have withstood the reso
lutions which the learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) so much
. to his honour, moved against him two years ago ? Or could
he have had such influence as to have worked upon the same
learned gentleman, after he had made the declaration which
I have recalled to the memory of the House, namely, that
Mr. Hastings never went to the borders of Bengal, without
having in view the imprisonment of a prince, or the extermi
nation of a people, to state to the House much in his praise,
and very little in his disfavour, and to say, that his recal was
only a matter of expediency at the time ? Could such a con
version have been accomplished by any person in England ?
No, Sir, it is the great India governor at Calcutta whose in
fluence I dread.
But, say ministers, the plan of succession by seniority and
gradation will destroy the great influence of the chief gover
nor in India. Is this true ? Are all captains alike ? all ma
jors, all colonels, all appointments of the same rank, civil
and military? No, the source of influence in India is the
service on which they are sent. One captain may be sent to
one place, and another to another; one to Benares, another
to Oude ; and the great object is to procure the lucrative in
stead of the valueless destination. Hence, then, the absur
dity of the projected scheme of seniority and gradation. By
such a scheme you take from the power at home the means
of securing the attachment and loyalty of the inferior. Com
pare it again to an army. The general must undoubtedly be
invested with powers sufficient to the execution of the mea^
sures intrusted to him; but at the same time. he should conT

10 MR. PITT'S BILL FOB THE GOVERNMENT OF india. [July J 6.
stantly know, that his authority is derived from a source to
which all his army look up for preferment, and from which
alone he can draw security for himself. Establish the prin
ciple, that all his officers and men should be advanced ac
cording to seniority and gradation, leaving to him the sole
authority of sending this colonel to one service and that to
another, and what is the consequence? That the army be
comes the property of the general more than the king. Just
so of the company. If the civil and military officers do not
look to home for preferment, if their fortunes are to depend
solely on the chief. governor, what more have they to do than
to court his favour, by entering into his views. If he should
desire to disobey the instructions, his army is ready to support
him, for the parent power has yielded up the means of draw
ing the expectations of the body to itself. Unhappy land !
thus art thou devoted to the continuance of that pernicious
system which has devastated thy fields, which has drenched
itself in thy blood, and fattened on thy spoils ! Thus, mi
serable people, are you to be abandoned to the merciless and
insatiable lusts of a successive band of sanguinary adventurers,
before whose eyes no punishment is set up equal to the temp
tations which the luxuries of your land present to them !
Would it not be better to say to the governor which you
shall send out, act as you please in Hindostan for these
four years to come? Do as you like; all I shall require from
you is to give me an account of your transactions when you
return''' My bill was charged with erecting a fourth estate in the
legislature. Did it erect any estate which did not exist at
the time ? The court of directors was the fourth estate, and
my bill only changed the nature of that estate. It chano-ed
it from an estate without efficacy, to one which promised to
have it. .It changed it from one which, from its quality, was
liable to much delusion, to one which, by being incessantly
under the eye and inspection of parliament, was less liable to
imposition, or to misconduct. It changed it from one not
controlable, to one constantly under check, and removeable
by address from either House. Could the commissioners
have continued in office one moment after an address ? Thev
could not, like the present ministers in the last parliament
come to reason against the address. They must have rei
tired. If that board had been nominated and removeable bv
the crown, ' I may venture to suspect that the bill would riot
have been so harshly treated in another House.
Had I made the board removeable by the crown, it mjo-ht
not have been so palatable to the last House of Commons- but
to the other branches of the legislature, I think I may vcn>

1 784.] mr. pitt's bill for the government of india. i i
ture to suspect it would have been more agreeable. I have
been accused of grasping at power. Did I shew such a dispo
sition ? The road was open. I had only to be instrumental to
the influence of the crown, to the' increase of that influence
which I had contributed to diminish, and the road to power
was open. But it would neither have been honourable to
myself, nor safe for the people. I chose my course ; and I do
not regret the personal consequences. This bill, on the con
trary, increases the influence of the crown, without reform
ing the abuses of India ; it goes a length which mine never
presumed to go ; and, indeed, it is too much the character of
the present ministry to subject the country to very great and
alarming inconveniencies, for very uncertain, and, at best, but
very slender good.
With regard to the regulations which are proposed with
respect to presents, I think that in the year 1784 they are
idle and ridiculous. They were made in the year 1773.
They were then made as strong as they can be now, and they
have been of no avail. The only efficacious plan of putting
an end to this and every other abuse is, by the institution of a
vigorous government. Place vigorous powers in the hands of
men constantly tinder the eye of parliament, and what are the
consequences? If they should come down and say, "We sent
out strict injunctions, but they have been disobeyed," the an
swer would be apt and conclusive, " Why do you not remove
the disobedient officer ? Instantly appoint his successor, and
bring home the delinquent." Such was the prospect which I
had in the appointment of commissioners ; and so far am I
from thinking that the institution of such a board would have
given immense influence to the ministers who should appoint,
that even now, when I shall hardly be suspected of wishing
permanency to the ministers in being, I am most earnestly de
sirous that they should invest commissioners with the complete
power of the Indian affairs ; so anxious am I for the perma
nency of the Indian government.
But I was asked, why should the Indian government be
rendered more permanent than the British? It is more neces
sary, in my opinion, that there should be more permanency
in a distant government than in a near one. Shocks in the
one cannot be observed when they happen, and the effect of
changes might not be seen in time to be remedied. My
board had not complete permanency, but it had a chance for
permanency by its constitution. From what source has all
the weakness of the Indian government sprung ? From the
variations which happened in our government at home. Why
has Mr. Hastings presumed to disobey the orders of govern
ment? Because he has dependence on a party, which, in the

1 2 mr. Pitt's bill for the government of india. [July io.
chance of changes may be able to protect him by the time that
his disobedience is known. I see an honourable gentleman
(Major Scott) smile. Perhaps that honourable gentleman s
smile means to insinuate, that his great friend's dependence is
on a power not liable to the changes of party, and from which
all the calamities of the reign have originated. Perhaps it is
too true, and too visible, that the present bill is the produc
tion of the same fountain. The time may come, and I trust
it is not far distant, when the eyes of that quarter will be
opened to the true interests of the crown and the people.
To sum up my objections to the first part of the bill, they
are these. It provides for a weak government at home by the
division of the power; and it perpetuates the abuses in India,
by giving additional authority to the officers abroad. It is
unstatesman-like in its principles ; for it absurdly gives the
power of originating measures to one board, and the nomi
nation of officers for the execution of those measures to ano
ther. It increases influence without vesting responsibility ;
and it operates by dark intrigue, rather than, by avowed
authority. In regard to the second part of the bill, consisting of the
regulations, I think, and always did, that the zemindars
and polj'gars ought to be restored to their possessions, and
that the rents should be fixed and settled by a rule of past
periods, and not of future inquiry. Begin fresh inquiries
and assessments, and you give authority to the very evils
which you profess to remove. I consider all the prohibitory
clauses against presents, as mere words, and must do so in
recollecting how much has already been tried, and to how
little effect.
Mr. Fox here referred to the conduct of General Clavering,
Colonel Monson, and Mr. Francis, of which he spoke in the
most handsome terms ; he alluded to the memorable expres
sion of Lord Thurlow, " that he wished the ship had o-0ne to
the bottom that conveyed them to India;" an expression which
he softened, by saying, that he made the wish " because he
could spare them out of the world." He treated this language
in terms of strong indignation. '
The third part of the bill, which he should take notice of
was that which related to the mode of trial intended to be
adopted, instead of a trial by jury. He had no objection to
that part which legalized evidence to be taken in India, and
properly transmitted here ; but what he never could o-ive his
assent to, was the abolishing the trial by jury ; for although it
was equally necessary for both judge and jury to possess a
sound head, good sense, and an honest heart, yet the nature
of their stations were widely different, one was to judge of the

I 784.] MR. PITT'S BILL FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. I 3
matter of fact, the other of the law ; the jury had merely to
consider of the evidence before them : and the only similar
trial to the one in question that he knew of, was that of a*
court-martial ; but that materially differed, as every soldier
at the time of his enlisting knew what tribunal he must, submit
to; but in the present instance,' persons gone out to India
went out on the faith of being tried, if occasion offered, by
the then known laws of the land, and not by any arbitrary
mode that might be afterwards adopted ; and if the present
bill was not to affect any that were already gone abroad, it
was, in fact, doing nothing. In a court martial a man
was tried by his peers, by men brought up in the same school,
in the same profession, with the same notions of honour and
discipline; but here was a material difference, and as the
clauses were framed, it appeared to him intended more as a
screen for delinquents, than as a punishment ; for there were
but two kind of accusers, and who were they ? Why, the
company or the crown. Now, supposing Mr. Hastings com
ing home; would the attorney general accuse him ? No; cer
tainly he would not, for the grave chancellor had declared
the man innocent already. Well, then, would the company
accuse him ? Certainly not ; for it would be an absurdity to
suppose that the company who were his servants, his domes
tics, would dare to accuse him ; therefore the tribunal might
fairly be called a bed of justice, for justice would sleep upon
it. The India company would be sure not to accuse himf, for at
the time he was committing the depredations . in Oude, to
stop the mouth of the company, he sent them home an in
vestment; and to curry favour, employed the son of the
chairman, in direct opposition to the orders he had received
from home ; of course he was secure from the company, and
had nothing to do but to make his peace with government ; for
he certainly was as much at their mercy as he would be in the
most arbitrary and despotic country that ever was formed ;
for the mockery of three peers to be chosen, and six com
moners, was absurd to a degree, as every person must know that
the crown would have the appointment of the whole, and
what chance did an individual stand who was to have the crown
for his accuser, and to chuse the judges, to try and deter
mine ? He was extremely severe on the reflections that had
been cast on him, relative to invading the charter, and pointed
out by what means it would now entirely be taker! away from
the proprietors ; therefore he cautioned them to be careful,
not in the blindness of their zeal for a man, however fair his
character might be, to suffer him to do that which they would
hereafter be sorry for, when too late, He concluded by say-

14 BILL FOR RESTORING FORFEITED ESTATES. [Allg. 2
ing, he would not trouble the House any more at present, as
he should have an opportunity in the committee, and he hoped
several times before the bill passed, of pointing out to the
country the danger there was in passing this bill, and the
mortal stab it would give to the constitution of this country.
After a long debate, the House divided on the question, That
the speaker do now leave the chair,
Tellers. Tellers.
f Mr Rose 1 ,T f Lord Maitland 1 ,
Yeas {Sr! R. Smith }27'--NoBs{Ml,sheridan }6o.
So it was resolved in the affirmative.

Bill for the Restoration of the Estates Forfeited
in the Rebellion of 1745.
August 2.
THIS day Mr. Dundas moved for leave to bring in a bill to en
able his majesty to grant totheheirs of theformer proprietors,
upon certain terms and conditions, the Forfeited Estates in Scot
land, which were vested in a board of trustees by an act passed in
the 25th of George the second, and to repeal the said act. Mr.
Pitt seconded this motion.
Mr. Fox said, the proposition had his most hearty appro
bation. The execution of some, and the confiscation of the
estates of others, had sufficiently atoned for their crimes ; and
their descendants had been punished by forty years depriva
tion of their fortunes for the faults of their ancestors. The
principle of restoration was just, generous, politic, and hu
mane, and he did not see that any one could, form an objection
to it. He approved so much of the principle, that he thought
the proposition ought not to stop where it did ; if the princi
ple was good, it ought to be carried as far as it would go, and,
therefore, it ought to extend to all forfeitures of estates in
England, as well as in the highlands of Scotland for the same
rebellion. Gentlemen would feel, that he alluded particu
larly to the case of a noble lord, to whom he had the honour
of being related, he meant the Earl of Newburgh, the present
representative of the Derwentwater family. He did not wish
to speak of crimes long since committed, and long since atoned
for ; nor did he mean to justify rebellion ; but this much he

1784-3 COMMUTATION ACT. 1 5
would say, that there were circumstances in the case of the
Derwentwater family, which palliated, excused, nay, did
every thing but justify, the treason committed by it. • He was
aware, that with respect to the Derwentwater estate, there
were difficulties, which did not exist in the cases then before
the House, as the former was appropriated for the support of
Greenwich hospital ; but he submitted to the consideration of
the chancellor of the exchequer, whether some means might
not be devised to extend the munificence of parliament to Lord
Newburgh, to which he had as good a claim as those who were
now about to enjoy it ; the principle was equally applicable tb
all ; and though he was convinced no partiality existed in the
minds of those who patronised the present measure, still it
would be more complete and free from cavil, if the English
estates were restored as well as the Scots. He did not expect
thatany thing would be done in this session for Lord Newburgh;
but he hoped the right honourable gentleman would turn
the case of that noble lord in his mind, so as to be able to
propose something on that head next year.
As this measure had for its object the relief of individuals, whose
unequivocal attachment and loyalty to his present majesty and his
family could not be supposed to be tainted or affected by the
crimes of their ancestors, it met with the perfect approbation of
the commons.

Commutation Act.
August 10.

ON the 2 1st of June, Mr. Chancellor Pitt moved several reso-,,
lutions, as the foundation of the act, since known by the
name of the Commutation Act. He stated to the House, that the
illicit trade of the country had of late increased to so alarming a
height, as to endanger almost the very existence of several branches
of the revenue, and more particularly that of tea. It had ap
peared before the committee on smuggling, that only 5,500,0001b.
weight of tea was sold annually by the East India company,
whereas the annual consumption of the kingdom was supposed
from good authority, to exceed twelve millions, so that the illicit
trade in this article was more than double the legal. The only
remedy he ccfcild devise for this evil was, to lower the duties on
tea to so small an amount, as to make the profit on the illicit trade
not adequate to the risk. It was well known, that in this trade the
price of freight and insurance to the shore was about 25 per cent.,
and the insurance on trie inland carriage about iq per cent more.

rAnc. 10.
I0 COMMUTATION ACT. L-"-ue
The duty on tea, as it then stood, was about 50 per cent, sc .that
the smuggler had an advantage over the fair dealer ot 15 v
as the voyage from England to the continent might e^y ^
peatedfour or five times in the year; he. ™yf° fjat£n would
reduce the duty on tea to i*i per cent. As thi, ^S»iat™
cause a deficiency in the revenue of about 00 000 .^an n
he proposed to make good the same by an "^t^^Xn but
This tax, he said, would not be felt as an addi '""f*"™™' ™
ought to be considered as a commutation, and would m ^™
favourable to the subject: a house, for instance of rune wmdows^
which would be rated at 10s. 6d. might be supposed to consume
7lb. of tea; the difference between the old duties on which, and
the new duty proposed, might, at an average, amount il. . cs. iwl.
so that such a family would gain by the commutation 15s. Ad. But
the principal benefit he expected from this measure was the abso,
lute r™n of the smuggling trade, which, he said, subsisted almost
SeTonthe profit of their teas. Another benefit would be,
the timely and I necessary relief it would afford the East India com-
panY. By this regulation they would find a vent for thirteen, in
stead of five millions of pounds of tea, and would be enabled to
take twenty more large ships into their service. The resolutions
proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer were agreed to
in consequence of which he obtained leave to bring in the bill,
which met with a warm opposition. On the 10th of August, upon
a motion for taking the report from the committee on the bill into
consideration, Mr. Fox objected to the principle of the bill, as well as to
many parts of its detail, because it was founded on a deception,
and held that out as a commutation, which was no commuta
tion whatever ; on the 'contrary, it was taking off a tax upon a
luxury, to lay a tax upon a necessary, and not only laying a
tax on a necessary, but laying it in away, at once partial, un
equal, and oppressive, by making the poor pay for the rich,
andtaxino- those that did not drink tea, in order to accommo
date those who did, and to enable them to drink their tea at
a cheaper rate. The bill, to have come before the public
fairly, oucdit to have been divided, and brought in as two bills:
the one, a bill declaring, that, for the better prevention of
smuogling, parliament found it expedient to take off the sub
sisting high duties on teas, and in their stead to lay a duty of
121. per cent, only-; and the other, a bill to lay certain
additional duties on windows. Had the two bills been so
brought in, they would have stood upon their separate prin^
ciples, and might have been separately examined and dis
cussed. There would then have been no fallacy, no decep,
tion, nor any ground for the objection lie was now stating,
namely, that the bill as it stood, tended to deceive and to mis
lead ; that it told the public it did one thing, while in fact it
did another, directly the reverse of what it affected to do. The

1784O COMMUTATION ACT. 1 7
new tax on windows, proposed by the present bill, was an ex
ceeding heavy burden laid upon the public : he was far from
saying that heavy burdens were not actually necessary : he
knew they were, and however other gentlemen might think,
he was convinced, that still heavier burdens were necessary
and must be imposed before the country could be retrieved ;
but what he meant to contend for was, that when burdens
were laid upon the people, there should never be practised the
smallest attempt to deceive them ; they should be dealt with
honestly and openly, and not blinded as to the real nature of
the tax, which undoubtedly they were on the present occasion,
since windows had no more necessary relation to tea, than
bricks, or hats, or horses, or any other of the objects selected
for taxation this year.
From this remark, Mr. Fox proceeded to consider the bill
as to its object; and he said upon this head, undoubtedly
smuggling could not be prevented effectually by merely lower
ing the duty upon teas ; spirits, as an honourable gentleman,
a friend of his, had well remarked, were an article of smug
gling equally necessary to be attended to, but no man could
look at the idea of extending the principle of the bill to spirits,
without feeling even more horror than they felt on the present
occasion, because it was not to be borne, that men should be
called on to pay a tax upon their houses for drinking spirits
in them. Spirits, he observed, were a species of luxury still
more than tea, and to tax all descriptions of men as the pre
sent bill did, in respect to the pretence that they might drink
spirits in their houses if they chose it, was something too
bad to be thought on for a moment. His grand objection to
the principle of the bill was, that it was compulsory, and not
optional. This was, to the highest degree, unjust and op
pressive ; and this it was that took from it the semblance as
well as the reality of its being a commutation. As the com
mencement of a system of regulation of finance, it might have
been unobjectionable, had it not been compulsory. If, for in
stance, it had been enacted, that the occupiers of such houses
¦as chose to drink tea were obliged to take out licenses annu
ally, after a rate proportionable to the size of their houses, in
that case it certainly would have been a commutation and an
optional tax; and had persons convicted of drinking tea in their
houses, without having taken out such a license, been subject to
a heavy penalty, he should have thought it perfectly fair and
perfectly reasonable. Such a system of regulation might have
been afterwards followed by other licenses for wine, &c, but
as the tax stood in the bill, the drinkers of tea and those who,
never drank tea, were confounded together ; and in order to
lighten the burdens which ought to have been borne by the
vol. 111. c

r8 COMMUTATION ACT.

[Aug. to.

former, the latter were taxed, and the poor, who had been
too much pressed upon already by the taxes of the year, we e
to be ground down, and severely oppressed. *-ea>J"' ,
said, was, of all commodities, one of the best obJe(f °*
taxation, because the best possible recommendation of any
tax was, that it would be equally beneficial, whether it
proved productive or not. What he meant by this, was,
that if the tax proved productive, it answered that way5
and, if it did not, in that case the consumption was not uffi-
ciently great to check the consumption of some other article,-
the manufacture or the growth of our own country, from
which a revenue equally large, might be derived, ^not
withstanding that the duties hitherto paid on teas produced
ooo,oool. it was really wiser to raise that money in another
Way, we had not, he said, heretofore been so much obliged to
the East India company, as had been thought ; because that
position being admitted, it followed, that without having re
course to the company, the same revenue might have been
obtained at home upon our own houses, and our own windows.
He took notice of the minister's readiness to concede on
any point that concerned himself and his own opinion merely,
and of his obstinacy in refusing to concede in the least, where
the benefit of the East India company was the object. It had
of late been the practice to cry up the great importance of the
East India company, and to contend, that every thing ought
to be sacrificed to the benefit of that company; he supposed,
therefore, that as the present bill had, for one of its great ob
jects, the assistance of the East India company, the minister,
ready as he had been on a late occasion to concede his own opi
nion to clamour and to the arguments of opposition, would not
on the present concede in the least, or consent to alter in any
material respect, a bill equally unwarrantable in its principle
and defective in the detail of its clauses. At times, he said, he
had heard taxes for luxuries called for in his mind very idly,
because many such taxes, however popular they might sound
when proposed, would have tended to detriment the revenue
by proving unproductive. He was not, therefore, for having
the idea of taxing luxuries carried to the extent that some gen
tlemen wished, but when a tax was laid upon tea, which un
doubtedly was a luxury, but a luxury so much in use, that it
came near to be a necessary, and when that tax was so far ef
ficient as to produce near a million yearly, he was not for aban
doning that tax to lay a tax on an absolute necessary, which
houses undoubtedly were. Nor was he quite so sure, th. t this
tax upon windows would prove as productive as was expected,
or that the old window tax would continue as efficient as it
had been hitherto found to be. Let gentlemen remember,
that when the window tax as it stood at that day, had been

1 784.] COMMUTATION ACT. IO
last augmentedand regulated, many persons blocked up several
of their windows, to avoid paying it ; now a tax on windows,
so much heavier was imposed, it was natural to expect that
they would block up more, by which means, not only the ef
ficiency and productiveness of the new tax would be checked,
but the productiveness of the old window tax would be di
minished. Mr. Fox, after various arguments against the general prin
ciple and the probable operation of the bill, spoke to several
of the clauses, and animaverted on the mode in which Mr. Rose
had answered Mr. Eden's remarks. The general reply, he
said, had been, " Oh, we shall bring up a clause for that," and
this had been repeated several times, which was a pretty strong
proof of the necessity of re-committing the bill. His right
honourable friend had contended very wisely and ably, that if
gentlemen having three houses were not to pay for more than
two, that by a parity of argument, those who had two houses
ought not to pay for more than one. This was undoubtedly
fair reasoning, and the fact was, that if the present were a tax
on houses, and were meant to be such, every house in the
possession of any person ought to pay; if he had three, all three;
if four, all four : on the contrary, if it was really designed as a
mere substitute for the tea tax, in that case, only one house
belonging to any gentleman ought to pay it, and that thehouse
where he himself resided, as that would be the house undoubt
edly in which tea would be drunk. He declared, the only
reason that struck his mind, that could be urged against charg
ing every house belonging to gentlemen who had several, was,
that it was recollected the right honourable gentleman, in
opening the proposition originally, had stated, that individuals
Would save by paying the tax instead of paying the high prices
upon teas, and it was thought that after such a declaration, it
would be too much to ask a gentleman to pay for four houses,
for the privilege of drinking tea in one of them. He adverted
to the question about minors and guardians, and said the ho
nourable gentleman had not answered that, by asking whether
the Duke of Bedford ought not to pay the tax ? Undoubtedly
he ought; but as the bill stood, the mischief was, that the Duke
of Bedford and a minor of a certain description, who had a
fortune, not only far inferior, but scarcely equal to his support,
were to pay the same exactly. Mr. Fox dwelt on this for
some time, and pointed out, that by the inaccuracy of wording
one of the clauses, if a person possessed a thousand, or any
great number of houses, let out to more than one family each,
he had it in his power to pay the tax upon no more than two.
of them. He explained this, by shewing, that the bill stated,
that where two houses were let to more than one family, the
c 2

20 COMMUTATION ACT. [Aug- I0*
landlord should, in that case, be taken to be the occupier ; and
in another part of the bill it provided, that any person occiir
pyingmore than two houses, should pay only for two. lhls*
however, he stated rather as a proof that the bill wanted ver
bal correction and amendment, than as a serious objection
to it.
An honourable gentleman had compared the present pro
position, which compelled all persons, whether they drank tea
or not, to pay a tax for it, to the custom of obliging every
person in France to pay a tax on salt, but greatly in his mind
to the injury of the mild spirit of French taxation. There
was, he said, no degree of comparison on the score of necessity
between the use of salt and of tea. The latter was clearly a
luxury, and no way conducive to health, perhaps far other
wise, as many had thought. Salt, on the contrary, was a ne
cessary, and, therefore, it was far less oppressive to oblige all
the subjects in France to purchase as much salt as it was sup
posed a person of any given description in life would have oc
casion for. Mr. Fox reprobated Mr. Rose's expression, that
he had a clause to bring up as a rider, at the third reading.
He declared, he never had heard such a reply come from a
secretary of the treasury, when a bill was in progress. Bring
ing up clauses by way of rider, was not a regular matter, but
a mere matter of resort, when any material circumstance had,
through inadvertency, escaped notice, till it was too late to
insert it in the body of a bill ; it was therefore an additional
reason why they ought to re-commit the bill. He said, the
great amendment he wished for was, that total and material
alteration of the principle of the bill, the making it optional,
and not compulsory. That alone, in his mind, could cure
the defects of it ; but as he did not imagine he could prevail
on the right honourable gentleman to make that alteration, he
must join issue with the honourable baronet, who had said he
hoped, as the present was a bill of experiment, it would bemade
only a temporary bill. He thought it ought not to be rendered
Eermanent, and indeed he heartily wished the right honoura-
le gentleman would consent to postpone going on with the
bill till the next session. A few months could make no o-reat
difference, and the matter did not press in point of revenue.
The whole of the bill might be re-considered by the right ho
nourable gentleman during the recess, and be brought forward
next year under considerable improvements. Mr. Fox reca
pitulated his several objections, viz. that the bill held out a de
ception to the public on a subject on which they ought to be
treated with plain dealing and with confidence; that it was
compulsory when it ought to be optional; that it ground the
face of the poor, and imposed a general tax on all persons as
io

t7*4«J ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 31
Well those who drank tea, as those who did not drink it, and
that it did not appear to him likely to put an effectual end to
smuggling. Were he certain that it would operate as a mate
rial check upon smuggling, he owned he should like it much
better; but he feared it would not. In the course of his
speech, Mr. Fox often glanced at the East India company ;
and before he sat down, he reminded gentlemen, that accord
ing to the forms of the House the motion must be negatived
before they could re-commit the bill; all those, therefore,
who thought as he did, would join in attempting to negative
the proposition.

Address on the King's Speech, at the Openinu of
the Session.
January 25, 1785.
rT"*HE king opened the session, with the following speech :
"My lords and gentlemen;
" After the laborious attendance of the last session of parliament,
it has given me peculiar pleasure that the situation of public affairs
has admitted of so long a recess. Among the objects which now
require consideration, I must particularly recommend to your
earnest attention the adjustment of such points in the commercial
intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland as are not yet finally
arranged ; the system which will unite both kingdoms the most
closely 011 principles of reciprocal advantage, will, I am persuaded,
best ensure the general prosperity of my dominions. I have the
satisfaction to acquaint you, that notwithstanding any appearance
of differences on the continent, I continue uniformly to receive
from all foreign powers the strongest assurances of their good dis
positions towards this country.
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons; I have ordered the es
timates for the ensuing year to be laid before you ; I confide in your
liberality and zeal to grant the necessary supplies, with a just re
gard, as well to the oeconomy requisite in every department, as
to the maintenance of the national credit, and the real exigencies
of the public service.
" My lords and gentlemen ; the success which has attended the
measures taken in the last session towards the suppression of smug
gling, and for the improvement of the revenue, will encourage you
to apply yourselves with continued assiduity to those important ob
jects. You will, I trust, also take into early consideration the matters
suggested in the reports of the commissioners of public accounts,
ana such farther regulations as may appear to be necessary in the
¦different offices oi" the kingdom. I have the fullest reliance on the
c 3

S.2 ADDRESS ON THE King's SPEECH. [Jan. 25-
continuance of your faithful and diligent exertions in every part of
your public duty. You may at all times depend on my hearty
concurrence in every measure which can tend to alleviate our na
tional burdens, to secure the true principles of the constitution,
and to promote the general welfare of my people."
An address, which, as usual, was an echo to the speech, was
moved by Mr. Philips and seconded by Mr. Gerard Noel Edwards.
The total silence which the king's speech observed, relative to the
affairs of India, called up. Mr. Burke; who adverted to what he
considered as an unpardonable omission therein. This silence,
said Mr. Burke, is indeed an alarming confession of that distress
which it forbears to mention. After dwelling for some time on
the enormous degree of profusion and peculation prevalent in our
government in the East Indies, he pledged himself in the most so
lemn manner, to support his assertions with proofs the most irre
fragable ; and concluded by moving the following amendment to
the address proposed : " Convinced, as we are, by the most deci
sive and most melancholy experience, that all waste of the public
treasure, in the East Indies, immediately or mediately applicable
to the company's use, and all division of that treasure from public
service to the private emolument of individuals, must not only bring
an unsupportable burthen on the natives of those countries (mul
titudes of whom are our fellow citizens, and ought to be the objects
of our most tender concern), but has a tendency to bring home
the same burthens on the inhabitants of Great Britain, we will, with
a care worthy of the magnitude of the objects which such an abuse
may effect, employ our most diligent researches to discover,
and our best endeavours to bring to condign punishment, the
authors of such misdemeanors, if they shall be found to exist."
Mr. Fox rose next, and began with declaring, that though
he most cordially concurred in every thing that his right ho
nourable friend had said on the subject of India, and thought
it highly necessary that some notice should have been taken
of it in his majesty's speech, nevertheless he should give the
address his assent; and that he should do so, whether the
amendment was carried or not. He then went into a dis
cussion of Indian affairs, declaring that he begged pardon
of the East India directors for having supposed that no sys
tem of government for India could be so bad as that carried
on under their direction. Experience had shewn, that under
the present absurd and miserable board of control as much
peculation and corruption was carried on in India as ever.
But as this subject would soon be brought forward in the
House, either for advice or crimination, he would dismiss it
for the present.
He desired not to be understood as pledging himself to
any particular measure, by giving his consent to the present
address. As far as what was in it went towards a declara
tion that the measures lately pursued for the prevention of

1785-!] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 2J
smuggling had been effectual, he had no objection, because
he had been told they had ; but if any thing like an appro
bation of that wild, unjust, oppressive and severe burden on
the public, the commutation tax, as it was called, was im
plied under the approbation of the measures against smug
gling, to that he did not assent, because he held it in utter ab
horrence. It reminded him, he said, of a language that
had been held during the administration of the Earl of Shel-
burne, of increasing the revenue by taking off taxes ; an idea
as absurd as ever entered into the mind of man. The com
mutation tax had acted exactly in the contrary way ; it had
added to the burdens of the people, without increasing the
revenues of the country.
Having stated the hardship put upon the public by the
commutation tax, and particularly reprobated it as a most
ill-timed measure, it being suggested and carried at the very
hour when the public were unavoidably to be galled by new
and burdensome taxes, Mr. Fox spoke of the unanimity
which Mr. Pitt had mentioned with so much satisfaction as
marking the proceedings of the day, and advised the chan
cellor of the exchequer not to draw too flattering a presage
from the circumstance. He put him in remembrance that
the two last addresses at the opening of the two last sessions
of the old parliament, had been carried unanimously, and
that nevertheless the two administrations then respectively in
office, had been speedily afterwards overthrown; a circum
stance as little to be expected by them, and as little probable
at the time, as a sudden overthrow of the present adminis
tration was or could be. — With regard to what had been
said on the subject of a parliamentary reform, Mr. Fox de
clared himself a fast friend to a measure of that tendency,
but he could not but conceive that the minister's proposing
a specific proposition was the most unlikely means of obtain
ing the end. He proceeded to remark on a letter circulated by
the reverend Mr. Wyvill, wherein the chancellor of the
exchequer was said to have promised his support to the mea
sure " as a man and as a minister." * — Of this he required

* The following is the copy of a circular letter sent by the Rev. Mr.
Wyvill, to the chairmen of the several committees of the counties and
cities associated for the purpose of obtaining a reform in the representa
tion of the people. " Jtferot's Hotel, King Street, St. James's,
" Sir, " December 27, 1784.
" I am authorised by Mr. Pitt to declare, that he will bring the subject
of a parliamentary reformation before the House of Commons as early as
possible in the next session ; that he will support his intended proposi-
C 4

24 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Jan. 25
an explanation ; to support as a minister, could literally but
mean, as a servant of the king; nor could it be tortured into
any other sense, unless it applied to the exertion of an undue
influence, which the constitution did not acknowledge, and
which, therefore, he hoped the right honourable gentleman
would disavow. — He then alluded to the Westminster scru
tiny, of which, he said, he would not at present anticipate a
future discussion; but surely every pretension to reform
was in itself a mockery, when such a power was permitted in
a returning officer, as to delay the return, for years perhaps,
according to his pleasure.
He then took notice of the reduction of the army, and
said, that if, notwithstanding the pacific assurances his ma
jesty received from all foreign powers of their good dispo
sition towards Great Britain, administration had reason to
suspect that something would, or only imagined that some
thing might arise upon the continent, likely to affect the
interests of this country, they would do wisely not to reduce
the army any lower. He reminded ministers of the necessity
for their keeping a wary eye over the conduct of the house
of Bourbon, and bid them look to the preservation of the
balance of power in Europe, which had ¦- ever been thought
material to the preservation of the interests of this country.
The management of the military force, he observed, was
no part of the privilege of that House, but rested in the
king and his prerogative. In fact, the army was altogether
in the hands of the executive government, and in the nature
of things, the conduct must be entrusted to the executive
government. His majesty came to that House to ask a
supply for the pay and clothing of the army, and that House

tions to the utmost of his strength, and that he will exert his whole power
and credit, as a man, and as a minister, honestly and boldly, to carry such a
meliorated system of representation as may place the constitution on a
footing of permanent security. I am happy to communicate this in
telligence, which, I trust, will give pleasure to you, Sir, and to every firm
and unquestionable friend to the rights of the people. And from recent
communication in Yorkshire, I can venture to assure you, that it is highly
probable, if the borough of  , and other respectable bodies should
be heartily disposed, on this occasion, to testify their sentiments in favour
of political reformation, a vigorous effort would be made in Yorkshire in
concurrence with them, to give effectual support to the necessary measure
— the improvement of our representation.
" I am, with great respect, your most obedient, humble- servant
" C. Wyvill." '
'« As the appearance of this intelligence in the newspapers, for some
time, would do infinite disservice to the cause, I would request you to avoid
that with caution ; though, short of publication, I think it cannot be too
generally known."

1785-] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 25
had it then in its power to check any abuse the executive
government might commit in that respect: but if it were
possible that a king of Great Britain could be imprudent
enough to keep up too small a military force, in a moment
of alarm (which certainly was not very probable, as kings
were generally inclined to maintain as large an army as
their subjects would pay for), he for one should think it
expedient that the House should address the crown, and ad
vise the having a larger army; he hoped, therefore, that
administration would not, if they saw occasion to the con
trary, think of making a further reduction of the army. Mr.
Fox said, he hoped also, that administration would have the
firmness, if additional burdens were necessary for funding
the remainder of the national debt, and for providing an
annual surplus of the nature of a sinking fund, for the pur
pose of diminishing that debt, to propose such measures as
were necessary. Let administration be composed of what
men it might, however opposite their political opinions, they
might rest assured of his hearty support. The objects were
great national objects, and in all such he was ready to agree.
Mr. Fox commended that part of the speech, which
advised the consideration of the matters suggested in the
reports of the commissioners of accounts, and said, he hoped
the consolidating the duties of the customs would be among
the matters so taken under consideration. He commended
also Mr. Pitt's intention of moving for a call of the House,
in order to procure a full attendance, when the subject of
parliamentary reform should be brought under discussion,
and said, he had it in his intention to propose various motions
relative to India and other topics, which deserved the ma-
turest consideration. He therefore should take advantage of
the proposed call of the House, although the business of the
session was likely to be so extremely important, that, in his
opinion, every gentleman who had any regard for the public
interests, any sense of what he owed to his country, ought
to need no greater stimulative to attend constantly, than the
reflection of the magnitude and multitude of the objects that
must necessarily be submitted to parliamentary debate and
deliberation. He reprobated the issuing attachments from
the court of king's bench in Ireland. If, said he, the pil
lars of the constitution are to be sapped, and the sacred rights
of juries are to be invaded, our expected reform is frivolous
and 'futile. I will not say that the measure may not be ne
cessary here, which in Ireland circumstances may render
inexpedient; but I must insist, that in both cases, the meet
ings are precisely the same. There cannot possibly be guilt
in one, and innocence in the other; and from this truth,

26 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. C-
what alarming inferences are not to be drawn ! We know
the minister not to be hostile to the measure ; we can there
fore only argue, that in the violence of this procedure, he
seeks to establish a precedent which he may find useful. He
concluded with saying, that to the address he gave a qualified
consent. He had interpreted it according to his own ideas ;
but when it was mentioned, that the " true principles of the
constitution were to be secured," no person, in his opinion,
could vote as he did, unless convinced with him, that causes
of danger did then exist.
The amendment moved by Mr. Burke was rejected without
a division ; after which, the original address was agreed to.

Westminster Scrutiny.
February 9.

AGREEABLY to the resolution come to by the House on the
8th of June last, the high bailiff of Westminster proceeded
with the scrutiny during the remainder of the session, and also
during the recess. Not quite two parishes out of the seven, into
which Westminster is divided, were finished, when the parliament
met the second time, and yet the scrutiny had then continued for
eight months. It was calculated (taking into consideration that
one of the parishes already scrutinized was comparatively small)
that the business already gone through was not more than an eighth
of the whole. Of the votes on the side of Mr. Fox, seventy one
had been objected to in the first parish, and the objections made
good only against twenty-five : in the same parish, out of thirty-
two of the votes for Sir Cecil Wray, which were objected to
twenty seven were declared illegal.
In the second parish, out of two hundred objected to, Mr. Fox
lost eighty : Sir Cecil Wray, out of seventy five, at that time ob
jected to (for the examination was not closed), had sixty struck
off. In this state did the Westminster scrutiny again come before the
House, upon a petition from several of the electors, the 8th of Feb
ruary, when the high bailiff, and his counsel, Mr. Hargrave and
Mr. Murphy, underwent a long examination at the bar of the
House, touching the practicability of carrying on the scrutiny
and the difficulties and delays attending the same. The hi/h
bailiff gave in evidence, that, calculating from what had been al
ready done, it would take certainly not less, but probably a much
longer time, than two years, to finish the scrutiny. The day foi-

1785.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 27
lowing Mr. Welbore Ellis moved, " That it appearing to this House
that Thomas Corbett, esquire, high bailiff of Westminster, having
received a precept from the sheriff of Middlesex, for electing two
citizens to serve in parliament for the said city, and having taken
and finally closed the poll on the 17th day of May last, being the
day next before the day of the return of the said writ, he be now
directed forthwith to make return of his precept of members chosen
in pursuance thereof." To this motion Lord Mulgrave moved an
amendment, by leaving out from the word " That," to the end of
the question, and inserting, " The speaker do acquaint the high
bailiff, first, that he is not precluded by the resolution of this House,
communicated to him on the 8 th of June last, from making a
return, whenever he shall be satisfied, in his own judgment, that
he can so do : and secondly, that this House is not satisfied that
the scrutiny has been proceeded in as expeditiously as it might
have been : that it is his duty to adopt and enforce such just and
reasonable regulations as shall appear to him most likely to prevent
unnecessary delay in future ; that he is not precluded from so doing
by the want of consent of either party, and that he may be assured
of the support of this House in the discharge of his duty." The
amendment was supported by the Master of the Rolls, Mr. Bear-
croft, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Dundas : the original motion by Mr. Tho
mas Pelham, Mr. Montague, Mr. Michael Angelo Taylor, Mr. Lee,
Lord North, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Fox, and Mr. William Windham,
who upon this occasion addressed the House for the first time.
Mr. Fox followed Mr. Windham. He began a speech
of considerable length, with congratulating the House on
the accession of abilities they had found in the honourable
gentleman who had spoken before him. He then adverted
to the various speakers against the motion, and answered
their several arguments. He reprobated the doctrine of Lord
Mulgrave, that the Westminster scrutiny had nothing to
do with a reform in parliament. It had to do, he said, with
the reform of parliament, and was a subject which every
real lover of reform must countenance, since it amounted in
reality to the disfranchisement of the city of Westminster,
and with that of every other popular place in the kingdom.
He observed, that the ' chancellor of the exchequer had very
dogmatically declared, that every one who went before him
had spoken to every thing but to the question really before
the House ; he "would not dispute the right honourable gen
tleman's splendid abilities ; he never did it, he never would do
it ; indeed, it would be absurd in him to dispute what he him
self had always acknowledged, what the whole House ad
mitted ; indeed it would be no less absurd than to dispute the
right honourable gentleman's confidence in those abilities.
The right honourable gentleman sat out with saying, that he
was too much upon his guard to suffer himself to be betrayed

£S WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. 9*
by any temptation, to use personal asperity to any one : e
wished that the right, honourable gentleman's protestations
and his observations upon other men had been a little les.s **
variance; for he was sure every one who had heard the rig
honourable gentleman's remarks upon Mr. Hargrave, would
think that he absolutely forgot his resolution not to use as
perity towards any man. For his own part, he would say,
that he had never heard a more unmerited attack upon any
one: that gentleman had been praised, as being one oi the
most learned, the most able, the most indefatigable and la
borious persons of his profession; but it would seem as it
ability, learning, and diligence, were not the requisites for
an assessor; for the House had been told that other persons
would be found much better qualified for the office. Their
qualifications not being founded on equality of professional
knowledge, learning, and industry with Mr. Hargrave, peo
ple would be apt to inquire in what those qualifications might
consist. In his opinion, integrity was one of the most ne
cessary in a judge, and he was sure that Mr. Hargrave pos
sessed it in an eminent degree; he believed, also, that Mr.
Murphy was a man of integrity ; but who could tell that
he would long continue in his present office? And what a
lesson would the minister's speech of that day be to his suc
cessor in advising the high bailiff? Would it not say to him
in plain terms, that one assessor of inflexible integrity had
been removed ; his situation had been previously rendered so
disagreeable to him, that he could not, consistently with his
own dignity, remain any longer in his office, and to crown
all, having resigned, he was held up in an odious or ridiculous
light, by the minister? Was not this as much as to say, if an
assessor shall presume to think for himself, he shall be pub
licly ridiculed, reviled, and reprimanded ; whilst, on the other
hand, the courtly, the complaisant assessor, who may come
hereafter, may learn the way to gain the favour, the countenance,
and the smiles of the minister — no trifling considerations with
men who must look up to government for advancement or
promotion in their profession. Mr. Hargrave was charged
by the right honourable gentleman with having been himself
very instrumental in causing the delay of which there had
been such complaint. He would ask, if since Mr. Murphy
had taken his place, the scrutiny had been conducted with
greater dispatch? The contrary was notoriously the truth.
The right honourable gentleman could free the high bailiff
from the supposed necessity by which he thought himself
bound to make no new regulation that should not meet with
the approbation and concurrence of both parties. Now he
would be bound to say, that the most effectual way to pro-

17^5'J WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 2Q
cure dispatch, would be to induce the parties mutually to
agree to regulations ; and in this Mr. Hargrave was extremely
useful, as both parties had been often induced to concur in
resolutions, to which they previously had entertained strong
objections, but which they were persuaded to relinquish, by
the engaging and soothing manners of Mr. Hargrave. It
had been said last year, and had been repeated that night,
that non-entities had been admitted to poll ; and that the
supposed or ostensible inhabitants, if the expression might be
used, of persons not in existence, had been stated to be prin
cipally in St. John's and St. Margaret's. To the first part
of this he would reply, that they must be credulous in
deed who could suffer themselves to be led away with
the idea, that puppets or figures stuffed with straw had
been produced and admitted to poll at the hustings; for
without this, the idea of non-entities polling was nonsense,
for it must be supposed, that for every name set down in the
poll books, some entity had actually appeared at the hustings.
Now, he thought it might be very easy to account for the
notion that had got abroad relative to non-entities having been
polled. When a great many persons were assembled at once
to vote, more than one at a time might give in their names
and places of abode ; and in the confusion the name of the
voter might have been set down right, but the habitation of
one might be set down in the books as if it were that of
another : and, therefore, when inquiries were made for Peter
in a street, of which, by mistake, he was in the poll books set
down as an inhabitant, and was not found there, it was the
fashion of the day to call him a non-entity ; but it by no means
followed that he had not a good vote, because by a mistake
he was set down as an inhabitant of one street, when he really
kept a house in another : and, indeed, this was not an ima
ginary-case, for it had actually happened ; and a vote was
struck off from the poll, because he could not be found in the
street set opposite to his name in the book ; and yet he made
it appear to the satisfaction of the high bailiff himself, that he
had as good a vote as any man in Westminster.
Having premised thus much, he begged leave to say some
thing upon the law of the question, and he hoped he should
not leave the right honourable gentleman at liberty to say
with truth, when he should have concluded, that the legality
of the scrutiny stood unimpeached. What he had to say was
reducible to the following heads : Statute law — the practice
of parliament — and the reason of the thing. He contended
then, first, that by statute, the writ was returnable on the
day specified in it ; and this would appear clearly from the act
of Henry 6th, by which an action of debt was given to a per-

30 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. 0*
son aggrieved by any return ; the act provided that such ac
tion however should be brought within three months after the
meeting of parliament. Our ancestors, who formed that act,
must have looked upon the meeting of parliament, and the re
turn of the writ, as convertible propositions : or it would have
been absurd in them to give a man an action which could be
so easily defeated, if the practice introduced by the present
parliament had prevailed in the days of Henry the 6th ; for
the sheriff not making any return till three months, or as it
might be in the present case, three years after the meeting,
no action could be brought against him, because by law it must
be brought within three months after the meeting, or not at
all. The next statute he would mention, was that of Wil
liam III. which made it absolutely necessary that the sheriff
should make his return on or before the day of meeting. In
this, surely, was virtually included every inferior returning
officer, who, by making their returns to the sheriff, must en
able him to obey his writ, and transmit it to the crown office
in due time before the opening of the session. It had been
said by the learned master of the rolls, that a writ for
the election of a burgess during the sitting of parliament was
not returnable within any limited time. The difference be
tween that and the present case was very striking : the king
was supposed to know best when a new parliament ought to
meet, and, therefore, he summoned it to meet on the day
which appeared to him most proper; and it was necessary
that the Commons should be fully represented before parlia
ment proceeded to make laws ; but it was different with re
spect to a vacancy made by death in a House of Commons
already sitting ; for the same reason for dispatch not prevail
ing, the act of William III. required only that the return
should be made within fourteen days after the election : but
by the new mode lately introduced, a scrutiny might be de
manded or ordered, and as it was the continuation of the poll
or election, the actual close of the poll not being deemed a
conclusion of the election, the precept might be held even
for years by the returning officer, notwithstanding the act of
William III. 5
He next maintained, that a scrutiny, protracted beyond
the exigency of the writ, was contrary to the uniform and in
variable practice of parliament. In the great Oxfordshire
election, the sheriff granted a scrutiny, which lasted till the
day before his writ was returnable, and then closed it, con
trary to the wishes and intreaties of the parties that had de
manded it : he then returned all the four candidates : the
House was not angry with the sheriff; on the contrary, it sat
from day to day to determine who ought to have been returned
12

I785.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 3 1
as the sitting members, and pronounced in favour of Parker
and Turner, and against Dashwood and Wenman.
Lastly, he said it was contrary to the reason of the thing ;
for it was left in the power of returning officers to protract the
return as they pleased (and who could find fault with or punish
them, when they declared inexorable conscience to be the
cause of the delay?) a packed parliament might meet for
shameful purposes ; the members of Old Sarum, Midhurst,
Thirske, Knaresborough, and the like, might take their
seats, whilst the representatives of Westminster, Liverpool,
Bristol, Newcastle, and every populous place, were not yet
elected !
A scrutiny in itself was not a measure into which a return
ing officer was bound to go, except in the city of London,
where a provision was made for it by a special act of parlia
ment ; if he was, why was not the sheriff of Bedfordshire pu
nished by the House for refusing it ; why did not the House
call to account the returning officer of Southwark, Lancaster,
&c. who had also refused to grant a scrutiny ? And here he
begged leave to remark, that the doctrine broached by the
right honourable gentleman (the chancellor of the exchequer),
that let the bad votes be on which side they might, a scrutiny
ought to be granted, was truly dangerous ; for in cases where
the majorities were very small, as in Bedfordshire, where it
was only of one, and in Southwark where it consisted of eleven,
See. a scrutiny demanded by the person who had the minority,
and granted, would keep the legal members out of their seats,
the electors unrepresented, and leave the members of decayed
boroughs to transact the business, for which such a parlia
ment might have been packed.
He had not a doubt, then, that as this scrutiny was con
trary to statute law, to the practice of the House of Commons
immemorially, and to the reason of the thing, the only object
that the minister could have in view was, to harass and per
secute an individual, whom he had honoured, by distinguish
ing him from among a number of others, to make the victim
of his resentment. He had always wished to stand well with
the right honourable gentleman : he remembered the day he
had first congratulated the House on the acquisition of his
abilities ; it had been his pride to fight side by side with him
the battles of the constitution, little thinking that he would
one day desert his principles, and lend himself to be the in
strument of that secret influence, which they had both com
bated so successfully. He might have been prepared to find
a formidable rival in the right honourable gentleman ; a rival
that would leave him far behind in the pursuit of glory ; but
he never could have expected that he would have descended

32 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. Q'
so low, as to be the persecutor of any man. I fancied, said
Mr. Fox, I saw in him so much generosity of soul, so much
elevation of mind, that so groveling a passion as malice
could not have found an asylum in his breast. If he thinks
that it is merely for a seat in parliament that I am contending,
he knows me not ; but I was willing to take the hard task of
stemming the tide of misrepresentation, that had artfully and
studiously been disseminated through the kingdom. I was de
sirous that the citizens of Westminster, to whom my public
measures were best known, who knew even my private foibles,
as I had been bred, and had always lived among them, should
pass the judgment on my political conduct, and proud I am
of the issue, which has taught the more distant parts of the
kingdom that they were misled.
As to the election for Kirkwall, ft was owing, he said, to
an accident ; and he declared, upon his honour, that after he
had heard the greatest ornaments of this country had been sa
crificed to the popular prejudices, when he heard that Lord
John Cavendish had been thrown out by the citizens of York,
that General Conway and Mr. Coke had lost their elections, he
was sorry that, by an election for any other place than West
minster, he had been robbed of the glory of suffering in such
company. He saw plainly, he said, that it was a pecuniary
contest, and that his friends were to be tired out by expences.
The scrutiny on both sides could not cost less than 30,0001.
a-year : this was enough to shake the best fortunes. His own
last shilling might be easily got at, as he was poor ; but still,
little as he had, he would spend to the last shilling : if, in the
end, he should lose his election, it would not be, he well knew,
for want of a legal majority, but for want of money ; and thus
should he, perhaps, be deprived of his right, and the electors
of Westminster of the man of their choice, because he was not
able to carry on a pecuniary contest with the treasury. He
would not, however, withhold from them the satisfaction of
knowing, that however zealous he and his friends might be,
protraction must overcome them. His persecutors had only
to be stubborn, and they must succeed.
He said that he considered the present measure, with re
spect to Westminster, [as a succedaneum to expulsion. The
case of the Middlesex election, which had. been so much re^
probated, had at least the merit of being more manly; for
here they accomplished the same end of expulsion, without
daring to exhibit any charge against the person whom they
expelled. It had been alleged that the bad votes had, on his
part, been poured forth from the parishes of St. Margaret and
St. John. Without dwelling on the circumstance, that this
had been said of every parish in its turn, jae would appeal to

1785.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 33
the good sense of the House, and ask them whether they
thought him or his agents so absurd and impolitic as, even in
the supposition of their using such means, that they should
confine themselves to one parish only ? Would they not at
least have mixed their votes, and spread them over all the
parishes, that they might the more readily pass unnoticed ?
Those who were willing to charge his agents with the iniquity
of such means, would hardly suspect them of the folly of such
an arrangement of the plan. Supposing that by the calcula
tion of there being two hundred bad votes in the one^fourth
part scrutinised, that in the end there would be eight hundred
bad ; was that any proof that his opponent would have a ma
jority ? Had any of the proceedings warranted such a belief?
Certainly they had not ; and when the minister, who, in
stead of an advocate, should have acted as a judge, mentioned
St. Anne's parish, he should also have mentioned St. Martin's ;
but that he purposely forgot, because it would make against his
calculation. In St. Anne's, where he stated the difference to
be as five to three bad on the side of Mr. Fox, it was easily cak
culated, and would be found to be as seven to five ; therefore,
even supposing that Sir Cecil should strike off seven in every
hundred of what he had polled, and he only five out of every
hundred of his opponent's, still he should have a majority of
one hundred ; for by that mode Sir Cecil would strike off four
hundred and thirty-four, and he should strike off three hun
dred ; but in St. Martin's parish the difference, on the gross
amount of the poll, was not more than thirty, and the number
disqualified on each side would be.equal. But if the doctrine
was suffered of returning officers having a right to make no
return, on a scrutiny being demanded, and the appearance 6f
bad votes would be sufficient grounds to demand a scrutiny,
it would be in the breast of Sir Cecil Wray, or any losing
candidate, to pour in bad votes, on purpose to give a colour for
a scrutiny, and by that means keep a gentleman out of his seat
for three or four years. Among the various reforms, which
the minister was pledged to bring forward, was one for short
ening the duration of parliament ; but by the maxim adopted,
the election would last longer than the parliament. The
committee who tried the Bedford petition, did not think
themselves bound to go into the merit of the petition, but
decided the one vote in dispute, and made their officer make
his return; so in every case that ever came before parlia
ment, the like custom had been pursued. The right honour
able the chancellor of the exchequer had been, he said, arguing
on false facts and absurd hypotheses, and had not chosen to
mention the delays occasioned by Sir Cecil's making wanton
vot. III. D

34 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb.21>
objections to votes that he could not sustain. And he must
say of Lord Hood, that he had been rather patient and sub
missive, if not negligent of the interests of the city which had
so handsomely honoured him with their choice, in not striv
ing to do them justice in so far at least as his own seat was
concerned. His election was unquestioned by all sides, and
yet, under the same ridiculous and unwarrantable measure, he
also was kept out of his seat, and Westminster continued to
tally unrepresented.
He concluded with declaring that if, to his astonishment,
the House should be so far infatuated by party as to forget
this night what was due to the rights of election, and the purity
of representation, the question should not sleep. He assured
them it should be brought on in one shape or another again
and again ; and he had no doubt ultimately of seeing them
come to a determination favourable to the cause of thepeople.
The question being put on the motion first moved by Mr. Wel-
bore Ellis, the House divided :
Tellers. Tellers.
v f Lord Maitland 7 vr f Lord Mulgrave 1
YEAS tMr. Sheridan JW—Noes { Mr. R. Smgitn } 1 74-
So it passed in the negative. The amendment moved by Lord
Mulgrave was put and carried; after which the high bailiff was
called in and made acquainted with the said resolution.
February ii.
It appeared from this last division, that the prosecution of the
scrutiny was not defended by any thing like so numerous a majo
rity as during the preceding session. The novelty of the case the
fear of its being drawn into a precedent, the difficulties and delays
attending it, and the appearance, whether well or ill founded, that
it exhibited of a personal persecution, began to have their effect in
the House. It was not therefore to be expected, that a contest
which was commenced by the opposition under the most discou
raging circumstances, should be abandoned at the moment when
it began to take a turn in their favour. Accordingly another pe
tition, on the 1 8th of February, was presented by Colonel Frtz-
patrick from the electors, praying to be heard by counsel at the
bar, in- defence of their just rights and privileges, and to state new
facts, which they were not apprized of at the time of presenting
their former petition. The new facts, mentioned in the petition
related to an offer which was made by Mr. Fox's counsel, whilst
in the parish of St. Anne, to go next into the parishes of Saint
Margaret and Saint John (wherein Mr. Fox was stated to be
most vulnerable), but this proposition was refused by the coun«PJ
for Sir Cecil Wray. '

I785O WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 35
On the motion made by Colonel Fitzpatrick for calling in the
counsel to be heard, an amendment was moved by Lord Frederick
Campbell, " that, the counsel be restrained from going into any
other matter than such as may prove the evidence offered at this
bar on Wednesday, the 9th of February, defective and incom
plete ; or into such other matters as may have arisen subse
quent to the order of the House on the said day." This amend
ment his lordship proposed, he said, to check the counsel from
arguing against the legality of the scrutiny, which ought not now
to be impeached, as the House had already given judgment on
that head. Lord Muncaster concurred very much with those who
wished to see an end of the scrutiny, and of the expences with
which the parties concerned were borne down ; and he believed
it was then in his power to point out a mode by which these de
sirable objects might be attained. It had been said within these
few days, " that Mr. Fox had proposed that the scrutiny should
be carried into the parish of St. Margaret and St. John :" if this
was true, it would greatly facilitate what he had so much at heart;
for he had then in his power to make a proposal on the part of
Sir Cecil Wray, to the right honourable gentleman, which he
would read as part of his speech. It was in substance, that Sir
Cecil wished the scrutiny should immediately be adjourned to the
parishes of St. Margaret and St. John ; that Sir Cecil would then
object to four hundred votes, given to the right honourable gentle
man by persons, stating themselves to be resident householders of
this united parish, that he would object to them, not as paupers,
or persons not rated in the parish books, but merely as not resi
dent housekeepers, as non-entities ; that if he should disqualify so
many as that he should obtain a majority on the poll, he should
then be returned, and the right honourable gentleman would
have the liberty to petition the House ; that if Sir Cecil should
not disqualify these votes, he would then give up both the scrutiny
and the right of petitioning afterwards.
Mr. Fox observed, that as the noble lord had so personally
pointed to him, he presumed it would be expected he should
immediately say something in reply to so singular a proposi
tion. It appeared to him very singular indeed, that though
Sir Cecil Wray and himself were, frequently together, he had
not thought proper to communicate to him in private, or in
the vestry room, the extraordinary proposal that had been
just read by the noble lord : it was also very singular, that
he should have thought proper to have it communicated to
him publicly in the House of Commons. Such a proceeding
he conceived to be very disrespectful ; and were he inclined
to make a compromise on the occasion, he would not treat
the House with so much indignity as to make it a party
to it. As to the proposal itself, he must say he was astonished
at the impudence of it, and was really at a loss how to treat
it. Sir Cecil proposed that the scrutiny should be immedi-
d 2

36 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. 21.
ately adjourned to St. Margaret's and St. John's. Amazing
good nature ! After his opponent had disqualified as i^ny
votes in St. Martin's as he could, and finding it was likely
there would be, after all, a majority against him there, he was
anxious to have the scrutiny stopped in St. Martin's, and
transferred to St. Margaret's ! Here, again, he seemed to make
a candid offer, by confining his objections to those voters only
whom he should be able to disqualify, as not being resident
householders : but there was more the appearance than the
reality of good nature and candour in this proceeding ; for it
was very well known that the principal objections on both
sides were to votes given, not by paupers, or non-entities, but
by those who were not such resident householders as to be
entitled to a vote. But what was transcendently candid and
good-natured in Sir Cecil was, that, beginning the scrutiny
himself in St. Margaret's, he should be returned, if he should
disqualify such a number in that parish as would give him a
majority over Mr. Fox in the numbers as they stood at the
close of the poll ; and this, too, without waiting for Mr. Fox
to disqualify in return the. objectionable votes that Sir Cecil
¦should have in the same parish. But, come what would, he
would never consent to so base a compromise : he would never
give up the right Jie had to have determined, by a Com
mittee under Mr. Grenville's bill, the question of the return
on the day on which the writ, from which the high bailiff's
precept derived its authority, was returnable; and until
he should be convinced to the contrary by a resolution, he
would not believe that fifteen gentlemen could be found in
that House, who, upon their oaths, would not determine that
the power of the precept expired the moment the writ for
Middlesex was returned, and consequently that the high
bailiff ought to have returned him to that House on the
1 8 th of May last. '
Mr. Bankes approved of the right honourable gentleman's con
duct, in not listening to any compromise in the House, whatever
he might do out of it. He wished with all his heart that there
was an end of the scrutiny, in which, unfortunately, the House had
engaged, and out of which he wished his right honourable friend
the chancellor of the exchequer fairly extricated. As to himself,
he had opposed the scrutiny both in the last and the present ses-
sion ; he condemned it still, and he would always maintain it at
his opinion, however he might differ from those whom he most
esteemed, that the return ought to have been made for Westmin
ster, together with the writ for Middlesex. However, as the
House had ordered the high bailiff to proceed in the scrutiny, as
the end of such a proceeding was most desirable, and as gentle
men seemed to wish only for evidence that would justify them m

I785r] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 37
ordering a return, he would wish the amendment carried, in hopes
that proofs would be brought to shew, that the evidence on which
the scrutiny had been continued, by order of the House, was de
fective and incomplete. These new proofs would, perhaps, have
the desired effects ; and then the business of the nation would no
longer be interrupted and impeded by debates on the scrutiny.
Mr. Fox declared it was very far from his inclination, to
impede the public business of the nation ; and assured gentle
men they had misunderstood him, when they imagined he had
said, that there should be applications made to parliament
every week on the subject of the Westminster election. He
had never said any such thing ; but this he had said, that at
every turn ministers would meet this scrutiny ; they would find
it standing in the way of a parliamentary reform, and defeat
ing all its purposes ; they would feel that it had raised suspi
cions of the minister's sincerity, in declaring himself the friend
and patron of reform. It had been remarked by a learned
gentleman, that there were only a few names to the Westmin
ster petition : he did not expect to have heard such a re
mark; for though he might have procured thousands of
signatures, if he had invited the electors to public meeting,
he thought it would be better to present a petition with
a few names, than to disturb the quiet of the city by a meeting
in Westminster Hall. But should such remarks be repeated
again, such a meeting might possibly be thought necessary.
fie was not at all surprised that ministers should wish to be
fairly rid of the scrutiny ; it was high time for them to blush
at it, when they found themselves deserted on that question by
the most respectable of their friends, and by none more re
spectable than the honourable gentleman who spoke last. A
learned gentleman had said, " that the House was to be haunted
day and night by the ghost of the Westminster scrutiny."
The learned gentleman had, probably, assisted at some splen
did representations of late in which the ghost of a guilty con
science haunted the misdoer ; he might well catch the idea,
and tremble for his House of Commons that had murdered
the electors of Westminster, and left them aerial forms and
spiritual essences, without representatives ; well might he fear
to be haunted by the ghost of the scrutiny; well might he fear
it would push him and his friend from their stool ! Where
could he find a man who would not tell him he was sick of his
scrutiny ? Were not all the minister's friends tired of it ? Did
not their stomachs turn at it, not because it was nauseous
from excessive sweetness, but from its extreme bitterness?
Was there a learned man connected with the minister, who,
out of that House, did not condemn, in the most pointed
terms,, the beginning and prosecution of the scrutiny ? He bim-
»3

38 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Feb. 21;
self had heard a few days ago, in another place, (the court of
king's bench) a learned gentleman, who knew how to treat
with invective in the House the declared enemies of the scru
tiny, speak of that proceeding with greater disapprobation than
he could well have conceived ; for he there heard him say, that
all law and sense were confounded in the scrutiny : m this the
learned gentleman was right; he could wish only that He
would endeavour to be right always and uniformly, and not tad
one doctrine for the bar and another for the senate. J- here
was no dpubt that the majority of the House most heartily
wished for the end of a proceeding that disgraced it ; but how
was that to he accomplished? Was it by rejecting both law
and reason ? By refusing to hear arguments that would make
the absurdity of the proceeding appear in glaring colours?
The poor expedient of the amendment proposed by the noble
lord, would be found truly futile, if the learned gentlemen
who were to appear at the bar, had a mind to evade it ; and
they would be able so to connect the evidence they had now
to adduce with that which had been already given, as to in
troduce the one whilst they were seemingly urging only the
other. For his part, he did not see any expedient short of re
scinding the resolutions already passed, to cure the wound
that had been given to the constitution ; for if the scrutiny
was to be continued to the same length that the principles
would go on which it was ordered, it would last for ever. In
discussing this point, two great general propositions would be
found to create insurmountable difficulties. One was the uni
versal affirmative, that in every possible case whatever the
House was justifiable in granting and carrying on a scrutiny,
when the returning officer's conscience required it. The other
was the universal negative, that in no case whatever had the
House a power to order a returning officer to make a return
until his conscience should be satisfied. If the latter should
be denied, what would be the consequence ? Why, that the
former must stand impeached; for if the House must order a
scrutiny whenever the conscience of a returning officer called
for it, it would follow, that the House could not, consistently
with this delicate regard for conscience, compel the man to re
turn the members as long as his conscience was undetermined ;
and therefore a scrutiny might last as long as a parliament.
From this he hoped gentlemen would perceive the absurdity
of the past proceedings of the House, and the necessity of pro
viding a remedy for the wounded constitution of the country ;
and none could be effectual but the expunging the past resolu
tions, and entering another upon the journals, passing upon the
doctrines contained in them the most unreserved censure. As
to the motion of amendment made by the noble lord, he hoped

1785-] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 39
it would be rejected ; and that should a motion be made that
the high bailiff do make his return, it would meet with no
opposition ; if it should, it was out of his power to say what
farther applications the electors of Westminster would make
to that House.
After much debate, the House divided on the amendment:
Tellers. Tellers.
v f Mr. Elliot 7 XT f Lord Maitlandl
Yeas {Mr. Rose j 203  NoES JMr. Sheridan j ^
So it was resolved in the affirmative. The counsel, Mr. Erskine
and Mr.Piggott, being then called to the bar, andacquaintedby the
speaker with the said resolution, Mr. Erskine addressed himself to
the House as follows :
' Mr. Speaker ; as my learned friend and I cannot submit to the
' restraint which the House, in its wisdom, has been pleased to im-
' pose upon us, without departing from the positive instructions of
' the electors of Westminster, whose rights, under the law, we are
* engaged and prepared, as lawyers, to assert and support, we must
' beg leave to withdraw ourselves from the bar.'
They accordingly retired, and the high bailiff was called to
the bar, and examined as to the offer made by Mr. Fox's counsel
to go immediately into the parishes of St. Margaret and St. John.
The high bailiff gave in evidence, that such an offer was made, and
not accepted by the other party ; and after being examined to some
other points, he was taken very ill and obliged to withdraw.
Colonel Fitzpatrick then moved, " That it appearing to this House
that Thomas Corbett, Esq., high bailiff of the city of Westminster,
having received a precept from the sheriff of Middlesex for elect
ing two citizens to serve in parliament for the said city, and having
taken and finally closed the poll on the 17th day of May last,
being the day next before the day of the return of the said writ,
he be now directed forthwith to make return of his precept of
members chosen in pursuance thereof." This motion was opposed
by Mr. Dundas and Mr. Pitt, and supported by Lord North. Mr.
Pitt said, that if the new evidence was true, it certainly was imma
terial ; but he much doubted its authenticity ; and as the scrutiny
was now near coming to the parishes that were so ardently wished
for, he thought it ought to proceed : if it appeared otherwise to the
House, they were at liberty to adopt different ideas ; but the mat
ter appeared so plain to him, that he should think himself culpa
ble if he took up much of their time in pointing out so clear a
proposition. Mr. Fox said, that the lateness of the hour, and the full
and ample maimer in which his noble friend Lord North had
discussed the subject, made it necessary for him to say but
few words. How any gentleman could disbelieve the evidence,
he was at a loss to know ; or how any person could say it had
fallen short of expectation, was strange ; for it was a plain,
d 4

4° WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [Fe"bi 11*
simple fact that was not to be controverted ; and as to the
circumstance of his not being present when the proposal was
made, it was well known that both Sir Cecil and himself
when they went out of town, left their causes in the hands of
their counsel ; and Mr. Morgan had certainly given a clear,
positive answer, when he said he was not prepared. Yet it
was to be laid down that it could not be possible for Mr. Fox
to be unprepared on the i oth of June, and ready on the i oth
of July ; but it was possible that Mr. Morgan might be pre-
pared on the ioth of June, and not ready on the ioth of
July ! That it was a matter of surprise to the high bailiff
that the proposal was refused was plain, for he declared that
he had often since mentioned it to Mr. Grojan. But it surely
was imagined that he must be an ideot, or such aii indecent
proposal as that exhibited by Sir Cecil, through the hands of
the noble lord, could never have been made. It was nothing
more nor less than this — Let the high bailiff make a partial
investigation in one parish — strike off as many votes as would'
give him a majority — make an instant return, and leave Mr.
Fox to petition against the merits. No : whilst he had a ma
jority on the poll, he never would submit to such an indecent
and unconstitutional measure; nor could he by any means
consider that House as a fit party to raake a compromise on
a business which, agreeably to law, ought to be decided in
his favour ; for it was a fundamental principle, that he who
had the majority on the poll should be returned, and he who,
on investigation, had the most legal votes should be the sit
ting member. He had observed, by the questions put from
the opposite side, that the high bailiff's conduct had not
pleased them; he was rather too conscientious for them, and
not/ willing to proceed in the partial manner they wished for ;
it was plain that they had given him some broad hints to pro
ceed in a manner that they were afraid to avow, and ought
to be ashamed to be seen in. With respect to the finishing
the next parish in eight days, let them do it as they wished^
and, by striking off a number, partially make a return. But
hardy and desperate as they were, he trusted they had not
courage sufficient to do that.

"»

The House divided on Colonel Fitzpatrick's motion :
Tellers. , Tellers.
*- ff!:sa2. } ¦*.— n». {S;:Rmilh}.„.
So it passed in the negative. /
The. same motion was again brought forward, on the 3d of
March, by Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, and the question of adjourn
ment was moved on it by Mr. Pitt, which passed in the negative
the numbers for the adjournment being 124, against it 162. The

1785-] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 4 1
main question was then put and carried ; and the high bailiff on
the following day made a return of Mr. Fox and Lord Hood.

March e).
As soon as the above question had been carried, Mr. Fox rose
and moved, " That the entries in the journal of the HouSe, of
the 8th of June, in the last session of parliament, of the proceed
ings of the House, in relation to the last election for the city of
Westminster, be expunged from the said journal." The debate
upon this motion was adjourned to the 9th, on which day it was
warmly supported by Mr. Francis, Mr. Bastard, Mr. Welbore
Ellis, Mr. Powys, Mr. Anstruther, Mr. Scott, the Earl of Surry,
Mr. Adam, and Mr. Sheridan ; and opposed by the Attorney and
Solicitor General, the Master of the Rolls, Sir James Johnstone,
Sir Gregory Page Turner, Mr. Bearcroft, Mr. Rolle, Mr. Pitt,
and Lord Galway. The noble lord reprobated the Westminster
election, and insisted that Mr. Fox was not the legal member, for
he was chosen by a mob ; he had, he said, by means of a mob,
prevented the legal constituents from polling, and suffered that
mob to obtrude themselves on the poll. His lordship spoke in
such heat, that it was difficult to understand him ; the House were
out of all patience, and at last his lordship sat down, amidst the
disorder of the moment. Mr. Fox rose three times to begin his
speech, 'and was as often interrupted by Lord Galway, who com
plained of the treatment he received from the House in not being
permitted to finish what he had to say. He was checked by the
chair, who told him that he was disorderly.
Mr. Fox at length got possession of the House, and began
with observing, that he was particularly pleased when he saw
the noble lord rise ; for as the city of York had that day sent
up instructions to their members to vote for rescinding those
resolutions, he was in hopes his lordship rose to obey the in
structions of his constituents. He felt great satisfaction in
finding the electors of the city of York had not changed
their principles with their representative; they had felt like
Englishmen upon the proceedings of the Westminster scru
tiny, and had instructed their representatives to vote against
it. One of them, he said, from a natural love of equity, and
a due sense of the illegality of that House taking upon itself
to direct that the scrutiny should be proceeded in, after the
return of the writ, had uniformly voted with him on every
question respecting it. He said he was glad to see that the
alarm of establishing so fatal a precedent had extended itself
throughout the kingdom ; and though the city of York had
been the first to take notice of it, and to instruct their mem
bers to oppose the continuance of the scrutiny, he had no
doubt but a similar disapprobation of it prevailed in other

42 WESTMINSTER scrutiny. [March 9.
places, because he was sure that .all but those who were led
away by motives of personal pique and party prejudice could
be but of one opinion upon it. That it was illegal, that it
was unconstitutional, that it was destructive of the rights of
election, and injurious to that House, were facts so broad,
so plain, so immoveable, that all the art, all the ingenuity,
all the legal quibbles, and all the misrepresentations of the
statute and the common law, that had peculiarly marked and
distinguished the debate of that day, had not been able to.dis-
guise or to conceal. The right honourable and learned gen
tleman who spoke first on the other side of the House (the
attorney-general) had, in a most extraordinary and unprece
dented manner, endeavoured to supply his lack of argument
with the weight of authority. He had begged the House to
believe that the proceedings upon their journals were legal.
Why ? Because the right honourable and learned gentleman,
and because others in high departments of the law, had thought
proper to say they were so. This mode of appealing to a
man's own authority, in confirmation of the assertions he was
using for want of argument, was, Mr. Fox said, equally new
and unprecedented ; but it was surely a pitiful resort for any
man to fly to for shelter. When the business of the Middle
sex election was moved to be rescinded, and erased from their
journals, he, and those who with him had voted in support of
it, had not acted in so paltry a manner. That business had
been honoured with the support of the present Lord Thurlow,
the late Lord Walsingham, and all the lawyers of those days,
who, at least, were as good authorities as the right honour
able and learned gentleman, and those who sat on the same
bench with him ; but they never dreamt when a proposition
for expimging the proceedings on the Middlesex election from
their journals was in agitation, of bidding the House consider
what high authorities had pronounced in their approbation ;
had they done so, they would have thought they acted in a
mean and pitiful way. Mr. Fox took notice of the dark in
sinuations the right honourable and learned gentleman had
chosen to throw out, and complained of the extreme unfair
ness of his charging him with having protracted the poll, and
declaring that he had still his own opinion upon the subject.
In this assertion he would not take the right honourable and
learned gentleman's word. The right honourable and learned
gentleman well knew that he had no more protracted the poll
than Sir Cecil Wray had protracted the poll, excepting only
the three last days, when unquestionably he had not yielded
to the application that was made to him, of concluding the
poll for the direct purpose of instituting a scrutiny. He
knew also that there was no ground whatever for his insinua-

I 785.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.

43

tions that there could still exist a doubt as to the real quarter
from whence delay came. He knew that as fewer of his ob
jections had failed than of the objections of the other party,
he had not added to the delay of the scrutiny. If, after all
that had passed upon the subject, the right honourable and
learned gentleman had still opinions of his own, what sort of
principles would he carry to the bench with him, when he
should be made a judge ; and what security could there be had
in his administration of justice, who presumed to suggest and
insinuate opinions contrary to all they had heard at their bar,
and contrary to the evidentia rei ?
Having expressed this with some warmth, Mr. Fox men
tioned the advertisement in the newspapers relative to the bad
votes stated to have been discovered in the parishes of St.
Margaret and St. John, and argued upon that publication as
a publication carrying upon the face of it sufficient evidence
of the fallacious pretences that had been urged for carrying
on the scrutiny. He also mentioned that there were but nine
days more for a petition to be presented to carry the election
to be tried by a tribunal competent to investigate it, and give
an honest and just judgment ; a tribunal, the members of
which were themselves bound to decide upon their oaths, and
upon evidence delivered upon oath. He said, the considera
tion of the expence alone excepted, he heartily wished for a
petition, were it only that such dark and injurious insinuations
as the right honourable and learned gentleman had sug
gested, might be for ever wiped away, and their truth or false
hood demonstrated beyond all contradiction. With regard to
what had been said in the course of the debate, as to the law
puzzling the plain sense of the argument, and leaving him an
ample field to enter upon, he declared the reverse appeared to
him to be the case ; his learned friends had argued the whole
of the law and of the constitution and common sense of the
question so fully, that they had scarcely left him any thing to
say. One learned gentleman in particular (Mr. Scott) had
entered into the whole of the case with a soundness of argu
ment, and a depth and closeness of reasoning, that perhaps
had scarcely been equalled in the discussion of any topic
within those walls that turned at all on the statute and com
mon law, on the analogy of writs, and the sort of legal re
ferences that had been made in the course of the debate : so
well and so ably, indeed, had that learned gentleman argued it,
that nothing like an answer had been offered to any one of
his appeals to his brethren of the long robe, or any one of
his doctrines. In truth, he was convinced, it was out of the
power of ingenuity itself to overthrow the positions laid down
by that learned gentleman, to whom he would offer no apo-

44 WESTMINSTER scrutiny. [March 0.
logy for any allusion he might have made to him on a for
mer day, since having drawn forth so masterly and instruc
tive a speech, he considered himself as peculiarly happy in
having been able to say any thing that had the good fortune
to be productive of such consequences. The only attempt
that had been made to reply to the learned gentleman had
been by his majesty's solicitor-general, who, as the learned
gentleman had stated clearly and unanswerably that the writ
carried on the face of it its object and its end, had said, that
the writ had a third, as well as the former two orders to the
sheriff. It not only directed him to chuse a person at such a
place to serve in parhament bysuch a time, bill to take care that
the person returned had the majority of legal votes at the elec
tion. Mr. Fox ridiculed this argument, and contended that it
was equally weak and absurd.
He answered some parts of the master of the rolls and of
Mr. Bearcroft's arguments; and took notice of what had been
said by Mr. Bastard early in the debate, who had expressed his
wishes that an act had been resorted to, rather than a mo
tion to rescind the resolutions. Mr. Fox said, the reason
why he did not take that method was, his extreme difficulty
what sort of bill to frame for the purpose, and the risque that
must necessarily be run as to the getting such a bill through
the three estates. If a declaratory bill were brought in, it
would be liable to every objection to which the present motion
was liable; and if he were to bring in an enacting bill, perhaps
it would be said by the first law authorities in the other
House, (Lord Thurlow, for instance) " Why do you send
your useless bills here? To what end cram your statute books
with acts of parliament, pronouncing that to be law, which
every body knows is law already," This, he thought, as it
had been said on one occasion already, might be said again ;
and he was sure, it could not be said on any occasion more
truly, than if he were to bring in an enacting bill of the na
ture in question, and that House were to pass it, and send it
to the lords. Mr. Fox paid Lord Thurlow great compliments
on his abilities, and said, there was also in the other House a
professional peer, venerable for his years, venerable for his
learning, his talents, and his integrity, he meant his majesty's
chief justice of the court of king's bench, whose opinions, he
believed, were the same as his own'upon the subject, though
he did not speak from any secret communication. He rested
his belief that they were so, from the noble and learned
lord, who was many years since a practical lawyer, hav
ing at that time uniformly acted upon the same ideas
Mr. Fox concluded with an earnest recommendation to the
House, to do away the errors they had committed, and r»-
16

17850 NABOB OF ARCOT's DEBTS;

45

probated the idea of its being derogatory to their honour to
confess their mistake. t
On a division, the numbers were,
Tellers. Tellers.
' Yeas ILordMaitland 1 ^-rC Mr. Eliot 1
YEAS j Sir James Erskine \ '37— Noes J Mr R g^ j 242.
So it passed in the negative. Mr. Fox, as soon as the division,
was over, urged the necessity of bringing in a bill to prevent the
repetition of any such business as the Westminster scrutiny. That
was now, he said, the only means of preventing the bad precedent
of the 8th of June last being acted upon. Mr. Pitt assured him, it
was his intention early after the holidays to bring in a bill for the
purpose ; but he feared it would be a bill that the right honourable
gentleman would oppose, as he certainly should not be for a de
claratory but an enacting bill.

Nabob oe Arcot's Debts.
February 28.
TN Mr. Fox's East India bill, the new commissioners were directed,
¦*¦ without delay, to examine into the origin and justice of the
plaims made upon the nabob of Arcot ; and a cautionary clause
was inserted to forbid in future any of the company's servants to
acquire mortgages, or have any pecuniary transactions with the,
native princes of India. In the regulating bill of the last session,
the cautionary clause was omitted by Mr. Pitt, but the examina
tion into the nature and circumstances of the debt is referred to
the court of directors, " as far as the materials they are in pos
session of shall enable them to do ;" and it is enacted, " that they
shall give such orders to their presidencies and servants abroad, for '
completing the investigation thereof, as the nature of the case
shall require, and for establishing in concert with the said nabob,
such funds for the discharge of those debts which shall appear to ,
be justly due, according to their respective rights of priority, as
shall be consistent with the rights of the said united company, the
security of the creditors, and the honour and dignity of the said
nabob. The court of directors, in execution of the trust reposed
in them, prepared orders tojbe sent to their council at Madras, in
which, after stating the suspicious circumstances under which
many of the debts appeared to them to have been contracted, they
direct them, in obedience to the postive injunctions of the act, to
proceed to a more complete investigation of the nature and origin
thereof. These orders being communicated to the board of con
trol, were rejected by them, and a new letter draWn up, in which

46 NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. [Feb. 28.
the claims of the creditors were all, with some little limitation,
established, and a fund for their discharge assigned out of the re
venues of the Carnatic, and the priority of payment settled
amongst the several classes of creditors. At a meeting of such
of the nabob's creditors as were in England, these orders were
publicly read ; and, on the ground of this proceeding, a motion
was made in the House of Lords by the Earl of Carlisle, on the
1 8th of February, " that there be laid before the House, copies or
extracts of all letters or orders issued by the court of directors, in
pursuance of the injunctions contained in the 37th and 38th clauses
of the regulating act of the last session." This motion, after a
long debate, was rejected by the lords without a division. On the
28th, a motion to the same effect was made by Mr. Fox in the
House of Commons. Upon which occasion,
Mr. Fox said the House was well acquainted with the mo
tion which he was now about to propose. The public were
also apprised, in some measure, of its intent and conse
quences. Whether the papers he meant to call for would
be granted or not, he would not determine ; but it was pretty
obvious how the denial would be relished by the people in
general. It seemed to be a maxim with his majesty's mi
nisters to grant no species of information which the House
had any right or reason for urging. An honourable friend
of his had moved for a letter, in which it was roundly as
serted, or rather avowed, that a conduct had been lately
preferred by the company's servants abroad, which was in
direct defiance of all the acts of parliament which had been
enacted on the subject. Here was not only a gross viola
tion of the order of the legislature, but an unequivocal
avowal of that violation. When, therefore, a paper of
such an extraordinary tendency was thus formally demanded,
his majesty's servants would not grant it for this simple rea
son, that the substance of that letter was still under the
consideration of the board of control. Whatever weight
this might have with the House in that instance, it could
have none in the present. For the object of his motion was
specifically different, as it regarded papers, which recorded not
any thing under contemplation, but that which was finished
and complete. He augured ill of the board of control, from
the moment they appeared thus peculiarly shy of their com
munications ; and every ill omen which had presented itself
to his mind, their conduct had literally justified. Why this
aversion to submit their actions to the inspection of their
countrymen ? Why thus treat the House, who had treated
them with so much distinction, as to place the whole of this
trust unconditionally in them ? Did such a proceeding tend
to conciliate attachment, or promote confidence? Or, was
14

1 7 85.] NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. 47
it not natural to all honest men, from the aspect which marked
the whole of their conduct, that something was wrong, or at
least doubtful ? That no intelligence of any kind whatever,
relating to the state of a country so remote, and so momentous
to the British empire, had transpired in the speech from the
throne, had a very suspicious appearance, and marked strongly
the tenor of conduct adopted by the board of control, and the
servants of the crown. How such a mode of secreting from
the nation an object thus important, would suit the humour
of the House, he would not pretend to say ; but he saw it
would produce infinite trouble to individuals, as well as much
general speculation. Within these few years the public atten
tion had naturally been much turned to the affairs of India,
which were so involved with those of Great Britain, that
whoever felt an interest in the former, could not regard the
latter with indifference ; in consequence therefore of this
general curiosity and interest, three different plans had been
proposed for better regulating the affairs of India. These
plans he specified as having Mr. Dundas, Mr. Pitt, and him
self, for their respective authors. The one proposed by the
right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer had alone
received the sanction of the legislature. But he mentioned
them only, to remark this circumstance to the House, that
materially as all of them differed in most of the topics, and
chiefly in the principle to which they were directed, yet on
the subject of the nabob of Arcot's debts, they so far coin
cided as to express almost the same language, the same ideas.
The bill brought in by the right honourable the chancellor
of the exchequer provided, that whatever debts were due
,to the servants of the company by any of the Indian princes,
should be investigated, and made an object of special inquiry,
prior to any step whatever being taken to effect payment.
The whole provision to this purpose was highly deserving the
attention of the House.
He then said, that the motion he was now about to urge,
went to a direct crimination of the new board of com
missioners, as acting in flat opposition to the late act of par
liament, which, in this instance, at least, whatever otherwise
he might think of the bill, was wise and unexceptionable.
It was calculated to put a check where it was most wanted,
and where it would certainly operate to most advantage. He
did not think it necessary to state for the information of those
who knew the history of India, what however would surprise
those who did not. Nothing was more common, than for
many persons who left this country, when neither in a con
dition to borrow great sums nor lend them, on their arrival in
India, to become all at once creditors to the first princes in

48 NABOB or arcot's debts. [Feb. 28.
that country, and that to a very considerable amount. Ihis
well-known fact would naturally lead to many conjectures.
Thus much, at least, was obvious and indisputable : that such
pecuniary obligations could not take place, but on the sup
position, that some services were thus hired, which it was not
the fashion, or convenient, to own.
He next went into a statement of the nabob of Arcot's
debt, with a view, by illustrating the several articles of which
it consisted, separately to shew which of these were most in-
titled to immediate payment. This, he contended, was in
perfect conformity to the spirit of the late act, which instituted
that inquiry should precede payment. And whatever should
be the fate of the present motion, or the complaisance of the
minister to the requisition, and the necessity of the House
with respect to the information required, he was happy, as he •
trusted every member who wished well to the public would be,
that a copy of the identical papers which he called for was
before the public, and that Mr. Debrett had done that for the
public which the board of control, as well as his majesty's
ministers, had refused, though urged with great propriety
and from motives of necessity, to do either for the company
or parliament. To this publication he referred, as containing an
accurate and systematic view of the subject. It was an inquiry,
he said, to which every well-principled mind would unavoidably
press to discover the origin, occasion and justice of those debts
which were due to individuals from the nabob of Arcot. The
board of directors, as they had often done, had ordered a
strict inquisition to be made ; and from the facts which should
be brought forward, in consequence of that inquisition, some
plan of arrangement might take place. But this new board
of control had over-ruled the resolution of the directors ; and
in flat defiance of what the directors had thus formally enacted,
had resolved forthwith to admit that the claims, which were
at best suspicious, or unknown, should supersede' those which
were known and valid. This was the great question to which
he begged the attention of the House, as also to the various
papers which he should read on this subject. It was a cir
cumstance which could hardly escape the attention of the
House, that many of these debts bore date from the time
when the presidency of Madras entered the Carnatic by an
army, and attacked the kingdom of Tanjore, as it was well
known, and at the express instance of the nabob of Arcot.
He desired this fact might be seriously considered ; he de
sired that it might be coupled with a variety of things which
had since taken place, and especially with the order of the
new board of commissioners, which his motion was intended
to bring under the-cognizance of the public and of the House,

1785-] NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. 49
-It had always appeared to him, and he had always stated it
as one of the greatest preventives to the authority of the
direction operating with dignity and effect, that the servants
had, by peculation and intrigue, acquired a sovereignty over
their masters. Here, then, was the same dreadful and pre
vailing evil still predominating; and this additional board,
instead of strengthening the old government, enfeebled it, by
relapsing into the only radical flaw in the original constitu
tion ; for he was aware no man would stand up in his place,
and give such an account of these debts as would correspond
with principles of justice between man and man. Yet such
were the debts which the new board among its first acts,
and to the detriment of debts actually due, had put in a
train of payment ! So that unless the House of Commons, or
the legislature, interfered, and set aside the order, it would
inevitably become final.
In urging this question, therefore, he was not hastilyattacking
either individuals, the nabob of Arcot, or the commissioners,
but pleading the cause of the public. The arrangement of the
debts due to individuals he selected chiefly under those of the
old debts, the new debts, and the debts of the company. With
the first of these he agreed in substance, and should not
make any animadversions on that part of the matter. He was
more peculiarly interested in those which were denominated
the new consolidated debt, and the pretensions on which the
payment of them was demanded. He concurred with all who
had given any deliberation to the subject, in thinking some
thing doubtful or unaccountable in the accruing of them.
He mentioned the directors and the board of commissioners
particularly, as holding the same language ; it struck him
forcibly that, after stating their reasons for hesitating on the
matter with great plausibility, and laying down a variety of
premises, which led to quite an opposite conclusion, they came
all at once to the absurd, or at least most unexpected one,
which he trusted this House would reprobate. They allowed
that those debts were not recommended by the same forcible
reasons, which operated in the other case. They owned
themselves much at a loss concerning their authenticity.
They stated strong dislike, as if truth extorted it from them,
whenever these debts were mentioned ; but what would the
House expect should be the result of all this ? That they
consequently inclined to defer the settlement of debts thus
hypothetical only, till such as were not could be fully and
satisfactorily discharged. This, one might imagine, would
have been the conclusion of their statement. But it was quite
the reverse. They ordered indiscriminate payment pf all,
VOL. III. E

5° NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. [Feb. 28.
The motives for such a decision were singular and various.
One was, that the nabob's debts mignt be no longer kept a-float.
But how this discharge would prevent that consequence, he
was at a loss to conceive. However, he owned himself struck
by what follows : " When we consider how much the final
conclusion of this business will tend to promote tranquillity,
credit, and circulation of property in the Carnatic:" All this
he perfectly understood. It was precisely in the spirit of the
general character which had distinguished the conduct of the
company's servants in the Asiatic settlements. This order
would naturally prove to them satisfactory, and consequently
promote tranquillity. It would have a similar effect, he pre
sumed, on circulation, in the Carnatic, as it would take out
of the nabob's pocket, and put into that of the company's
servants. They added, " When we consider that the debtor
concurs with the creditor in establishing the justice of these
debts consolidated in the year 1777, into gross sums, for
which bonds were given, liable to be transferred, different from
the original creditors." On this it was concluded, that no
good can result from an unlimited investigation. This was
dispatching the wisdom of the legislature in a very summary
way, as it was saying in effect — We know the act of par
liament says so and so ; but this also we know, that the pro*
vision is useless and unnecessary. At the same time they
order that complaints which they limit, be admitted, these are
directed to originate only with the nabob himself, or such of
his other creditors as by this arrangement may deem them
selves injured. These were substantial reasons in abundance,
which would always render the nabob's complaints sufficiently
accommodating, not to create any alarm or uneasiness what
ever ; but the creditor who was most injured, and who had
actually preferred her complaint, was the East-India company.
Her case was well known to the public, and especially to every
individual who had made her affairs any object of his attention;
and he virtually barred the claim of these debts, even supposing
it valid. This was the purport of the motion, to impress the House
with the absurdity and injustice of the preference which had
been given to private, where public interest was so notorious
and urgent. He then stated the consequences of this false
step ; it went to an implicit acquiescence with all the fraudu
lent conduct which had brought so much disgrace upon this
country in that part of the world: he would not impute any
bad intention to the gentlemen of the board; but the decision
which, on this very pressing matter, had been come into,
filled him with astonishment and concern : he knew not how
to account for it; but it would undoubtedly be considered

I785-] NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. 5 1
abroad as encouraging and patronising all those mal-practices
and peculations for which the servants of the company have
been so much' blamed. It did not adopt the maxim in so
many words, but, however, indulged the principle : it would
prove the truth of his observations by its future operations,
as it would furnish a precedent to men of a certain descrip
tion, which would have all the force of a statute, and which
it would not be very easy for any board of direction or con
trol henceforth to dispute. Such, he said, were the conse
quences which this inauspicious measure, both for India and
Great Britain, seemed calculated to effect ; it therefore seemed,
in his mind, a very proper subject for the interference of the
House ; it was an instance which plainly shewed how wisely
the power of cognizance was lodged by the constitution in the
House of Commons.
Concerning that part which respected the crop of 1775,
it was evident that the rajah of Tanjore paid the nabob of
Arcot the arrears and the tribute, with the interest due
thereon; but it was a matter of justice, that the man who
sowed should reap, or that he should have the profits of his
own harvest. The right honourable gentleman then entered
again on the first topic of his argument, and added a farther
observation on the debts of the nabob of Arcot, He said,
that the faction, though sometimes supported by the direc
tors, and sometimes by the proprietors, yet still kept up
their friendship for him ; perhaps it might be their fear of
him, or of the servants in India ; for it was clearly evident,
that the orders of the company were never enforced, and
that the culprits were not brought to justice, even by, the
most factious of the proprietors, or the most daring of the
directors ; nor did they attempt to have any legal authority
whatsoever, under which it was their duty to act. The
board of control was now suspected, and there were certain
papers in the possession of his majesty's ministers, which
would either bring home the criminality, or exculpate those
suspected persons. The point thus lying between the di
rectors and the board, it was certainly become an easy mat
ter for government to prove to the House whether those
charges were founded in falsehood or in truth, and whether
the spirit of the act of parliament had been attended to, and
its letter obeyed. It was, in fact, the only mode by which
the legislature could arrive at an authenticated information,
whether those into whose hands they had given the business
pf India had betrayed their trust or not. It was the duty of
the House to watch those servants whom they had employed,
and to judge of the measures which were adopted by the fruit
they produced ; as it was evident, that nothing but the most
E 2

52 NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. [Feb. 28.
' effectual and coercive acts would tend to do any service in
India. The gentlemen in administration knew this to be
the fact, and they confessed it when their bill was brought
into parliament. He begged, therefore, of the right honour
able gentleman (Mr. Dundas) to come forward and defend
his measures, on producing the papers called for. But he
trusted that, as the subject was a matter of consequence to
the kingdom, he should not be answered by invective, and
told, " that which you have done is worse than what we
have done."
He requested the House to consider, that if his biff had
any merit, which could not be controverted even by sophistry
itself, it was the merit of making the House judges in all cases,
and hiding no transaction whatever from the view of the
public: this undoubtedly was, and in the end it would be
found so, the only way of truly governing the people of
India. Darkness was the shelter under which all the iniqui
ties of the servants of the company were hid ; and to make
visible the conduct was the true method of correcting their
vices, and doing justice to the public. A detail of India
business, it was true, came but with a bad prospect of atten
tion at present. Men's minds were taken up on much more
important subjects. Their dearest interests, their most va
luable privileges were now at stake, and engrossed their
principal thoughts; but still it must be recollected, that
India, though removed at a great distance, yet, in its pre
sent state, and from the late alarming accounts of the system
of plunder, peculation, and resistance to legislative authority
continuing, it became a matter of importance. If the pa
pers which he should call for were produced, he pledged
himself not to shrink from the inquiry ; and that he would
so far do justice to the public, to the directors, to the board
of control, to his majesty's ministers, and to the servants
of the company, as to obtain from the House a decision
which should either exculpate or criminate. Should it prove
an acquittal, then all the glory, and let them ha"Ve it, would
be to the framers of the late bill ; and surely if the inquiry
was not dreaded, the motion he intended to make would be
acceded to. There was a large arrear of authentic intelli
gence due to the House; and the public looked for it. They
looked for it, because a kind of jealousy arose on account
of the many eager, warm, anxious, and zealous supporters
of the servants of the company in India, who sat in parlia
ment. But this phalanx did not deter him, nor was he afraid
of the present House of Commons. Five hundred and fifty-
eight gentlemen would not be deaf to reason, nor shut their
eyes and their ears to truth. They would listen to the voice

1 785."] NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS. 53
of truth ; they had done so on a late occasion, and he had no
fears for their determination on the present. However par
tial they might be to the general politics of the minister, yet
on particular occasions, they would not fail to recollect that
they were the representatives of the people.
He again repeated his intreaties that ministers would open
their minds, judge by the merits of the case, and therefore
not withhold that information from the House, which it was
so very requisite the House should have. There was a con
nection between the public revenue of this country and the
India company, which bound us in such a manner to pay
their debts, that common honesty required ministers not to
deny those papers, which were necessary to prove what had
been done in consequence of the act passed in the last session
of parliament. He begged that the House would look to
the debt of two million and a half, due to the Bombay pre
sidency, which at present was not put into any mode of pay
ment, and the bonds in consequence were so reduced, that
they sold at 6ol. per cent, discount; districts indeed had
been given as security, but those districts, by -the hand of
power, were taken away ; and the claim of, a number of sus
picious private creditors were preferred to the public debt,
against which there was not any proof whatever, nor even
the smallest idea of fraud. This surely was a most serious
object of inquiry, and it was a matter which he wished the
whole court of directors to hear. The chairman, he ob
served, was behind him, and it made him happy to find him
there, because he could give his opinion whether he thought
this new board of control had acted with fidelity or not, to
that trust which the House had so confidentially committed
to their care. Matters of accounts could not be made too
public ; and this was an aphorism well known to the House.
There were two purposes to which his motion tended, and
he wished the House to consider them well — The crimina
tion of the board of control, or an amendment of the act
of parliament. He then moved, " That the proper officer
do lay before this House, copies or extracts of all letters and
orders of the court of directors of the united East India
company, in pursuance of the injunctions contained in the
37th and 38th clauses of the act passed in the last session of
parliament, for the better regulation of India."
The motion was seconded by Mr. Francis, and supported by
Mr. Burke, in a speech, which, notwithstanding the unpromising
nature of the subject, was supposed to be one of the most elo->
quent that was ever made in either House of parliament. The
task -of opposing the motion and defending the board of control,,

54 IRlSfi COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [Feb. 22-
was undertaken by Mr. Dundas. On a division, the numbers
were, Tellers. Tellers.
Vj?Ac f Lord Maitland 1, XT f Mr. Eliot 1,6a.
YeAS [Sir James Erskine ( 69-~Noes jMr R Smith j I&4*
So it was resolved in the negative.

Irish Commercial Propositions.
February 22.
PREVIOUS to the meeting of the Irish parliament, in January
1785, the British cabinet, in concert with commissioners
appointed on the part of Ireland, had formed a plan for regulat-*
ing and finally adjusting the commercial intercourse between the
two kingdoms* On the 7th of February, Mr. Orde, the secretary
to the lord lieutenant, announced this system to the House of
Commons, and on the nth, a set of resolutions, which he had
before laid on their table, were moved and agreed to by the House
without much discussion, and without any material alterations.
The concurrence of the House of Peers being soon after obtained,
these resolutions Were immediately transmitted to England, as the
proposed basis, on the part of that country, for an equitable and
final adjustment.^ — Almost immediately after their arrival, the
business was opened in the British House of Commons, by Mr.
Pitt, who, on the 22d of February, moved, " That the House will
immediately resolve itself into a committee of the whole House,
to consider of so much of his majesty's speech to both Houses of
parliament, upon the 25th of January last, as relates to the ad
justment of the commercial intercourse between Great Britain
and Ireland." This motion being carried, the Various papers on
the table relative to Ireland, were referred to the committee ; and
the Speaker having left the chair, Mr. Gilbert took his seat at the
table. The eleven resolutions agreed to by the Irish parliament
were then read as follow :
"Resolved, 1. That it is highly important to the general in
terest of the British empire, that the trade between Great Britain
and Ireland be encouraged and extended as much as possible ; and
for that purpose, that the intercourse and commerce be finally set
tled and regulated on permanent and equitable principles for the
mutual benefit of both countries.
a. " That towards carrying into full effect so desirable a settle
ment, it is fit and proper, that all articles, not the growth or ma
nufacture of Great Britain or Ireland, should be imported into
each kingdom from the other, reciprocally, under the same re
gulation, and at the same duties, if subject to duties, to which
they are liable when imported directly from the place of the
growth, product, or manufacture ; and that all duties originally paid1

1785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 55
on importation into either country respectively, shall be fully
drawn back on exportation to the other.
3. " That for the same purpose, it is proper that no prohibition
should exist in either country, against the importation, use, or sale
of any article, the growth, product, or manufacture of the other ;
and that the duty on the importation of every such article, if sub
ject to duty, in either country, should be precisely the same in the
one country as in the other, except where an addition may be ne
cessary in either country, in consequence of an internal duty on
any such article of its own consumption.
4. " That in all cases where the duties on articles of the growth,
product, or manufacture of either country, are different on the
importation into the other, it would be expedient that they should
be reduced in the kingdom where they are the highest, to the
amount payable in the other, and that all such articles should be
exportable from the kingdom into which they shall be imported,
as free from duty as the similar commodities or home manufactures
of the same kingdom.
5. " That for the same purpose it is also proper, that in all cases
where either kingdom shall charge articles of its own consumption,
with an internal duty on the manufacture, or a duty on the mate
rial, the same manufacture, when imported from the other, may
be charged with a farther duty on importation, to the same amount
as the internal duty on the manufacture, or to an amount adequate
to countervail the duty on the material, and shall be entitled to
such drawbacks or bounties on exportation, as may leave the same
subject to no heavier burden than the home-made manufacture ;
such farther duty to continue so long only as the internal consump
tion shall be charged with the duty or duties, to balance which it
shall be imposed, or until the manufacture, coming from the other
kingdom, shall be subjected there to an equal burden, not drawn
back or compensated on exportation.
6. " That in order to give permanency to the settlement now
intended to be established, it is necessary, that no prohibition, or
new or additional duties, should be hereafter imposed in either
kingdom, on the importation of any article of the growth, product,
or manufacture of the other, except such additional duties as may
be requisite to balance duties on internal consumption, pursuant
to the foregoing resolution.
7. " That for the same purpose it is necessary farther, that no
prohibition, or new or additional duties, should be hereafter im
posed in either kingdom, on the exportation of any article of na
tive growth, product, or manufacture from thence to the other,
except such as either kingdom may deem expedient, from time to
time, upon corn, meal, malt, flour, and biscuits ; and also ex
cept where there now exists any prohibition which is not reci
procal, or any duty which is not equal in both kingdoms, in
every which case the prohibition may be made reciprocal, or the
duties raised so as to make them equal.
8. " That for the same purpose it is necessary, that no boun
ties whatsoever should be paid, or payable, in either kingdom, on
the exportation of any article to the other, except such as relate to
E 4

,-6" IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [Feb. 22.
corn, meal, malt, flour, and biscuits, and such as are in the
nature of drawbacks or compensations for duties paid, and that no
duty should be granted in this kingdom on the exportation of any
article imported from the British plantations, or any manufacture
made of such article, unless in cases where a similar bounty is pay-
able in Britain, on exportation from thence, or where such bounty
is merely in the nature of a drawback or compensation of, or tor
duties paid over and above any duties paid thereon in Britain. .
9. " That it is expedient, for the general benefit of the British
empire, that the importation of articles from foreign states should
be regulated from time to time, in each kingdom, on such terms
as may afford an effectual preference to the importation of similar
articles of the growth, product, or manufacture of the other.
10. " That it is essential to the commercial interests of this
country to prevent, as much as possible, an accumulation of na
tional debt, and therefore it is highly expedient that the annual
revenues of this kingdom should be made dqual to its annual
expences. 11. " That for the better protection of trade, whatever sum the
gross hereditary revenue of this kingdom (after deducting all draw
backs, repayments, or bounties, granted in the nature of draw
backs) shall produce, over and above the sum of 656,000/. in each
year of peace, wherein the annual revenues shall be equal to
the annual expences, and in each year of war, without regard to
such equality, should be appropriated towards the support of the
naval force of the empire, in such manner as the parliament of this
kingdom shall direct."
As soon as the above resolutions had been read, Mr. Pitt rose,
and concluded a speech of considerable length with moving " That
it is the opinion of this committee, that it is highly important to
the general interest of the empire, that the commercial intercourse
between Great Britain and Ireland shall be finally adjusted ; and
that Ireland should be admitted to a permanent and irrevocable
participation of the commercial advantages of this country, when
the parliament of Ireland shall permanently and irrevocably se
cure an aid out of the surplus of the hereditary revenue of that
kingdom towards defraying the expence of protecting the general
commerce of the empire in time of peace." In the course of his
speech, Mr. Pitt took a review of what had already been granted
to Ireland by the British parliament, and observed, that the con
cessions now proposed to be made to that kingdom, in order to put
the two countries on a fair and equal footing, he should reduce to
two heads : First, the importation of the produce of our colonies in
the West Indies and America through Ireland into Great Britain.
Second, a mutual exchange between the two countries of their re
spective productions and manufactures, upon equal terms. With
regard to the first, he allowed it had the appearance of militating
against the navigation laws, for which England had ever had the
greatest partiality. But as she had already allowed Ireland totrade
immediately and directly with the colonies, he could not see how
the importing of the produce of those colonies circuitously through
Ireland into Great Britain could injure the colonial trade of this

1 7 85.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 57
country, which was a direct, one, and therefore to be made at a
less expence and risque, than that which was circuitous. In re
turn for these concessions on the part of Great Britain, he pro
posed that Ireland should agree to the payment of a certain
stipulated sum, yearly, out of the surplus of her hereditary re
venue, towards defraying the general expences of the empire.
Mr. Fox said, he would not take up a great deal of the
time of the committee, as he meant not in that stage of the
business to go into a discussion of the propositions, a matter
that would unavoidably lead him into great length ; nor would
he debate the general resolution before the committee, which
he was glad they were not called upon that day to decide by
vote, since it extended to the whole of the resolutions that
had been read, and comprehended the extreme of the extra
ordinary system, the outlines of which had been explained to
the committee. He rose, he said, in consequence of some al
lusions which the right honourable gentleman had made, he
supposed, to what he had said in a former debate on the subject
of the propositions having been stated to the parliament of
Ireland, before they were opened to that House. No man,
Mr. Fox declared, thought more highly of the right honour
able gentleman's abilities than he did ; but nothing he had
said that day had in the least altered his opinion of the mat
ter he had just alluded to. He thought it not only highly in
decent and disrespectful that the propositions had not been
first opened to that House, but a circumstance that might
produce consequences of the most mischievous nature. As
the business had been managed, there might be, indeed it was
true, there would be, some mischief arise if that House did
not agree to the propositions ; and yet, mischievous as he was
free to acknowledge it would be, he, for one, was afraid that
he should not be able to give them his consent. Convert
the order of the proceeding, and then let the right honour
able gentleman see how the matter would have stood. Had
the proceeding originated in that House, and had they agreed
on any propositions as the basis of a system of intercourse with
Ireland, and the parhament of Ireland had afterwards refused
its concurrence in those propositions, they would have been
then but where they were when they set out, and no great harm
would have been done. The case was far otherwise at present.
Mr. Fox, after this remark, said, it had struck him as a
singular instance of ingenuity, that, in opening the outlines of
the system of intercourse with Ireland in the contemplation of
his majesty's ministers, the right honourable gentleman had
contrived to do away a good deal of what had been said upon
the subject in another speech, delivered in another assembly ;
indeed, the right honourable gentleman's speech, by far the

$8 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [Feb. 22.
greater part of it, had been little else than an answer to the
speech of Mr. Orde in the Irish House of Commons ; but,
after having read the one, and heard the other, he must do
Mr. Orde the justice to say, that he thought he had de
fended the propositions, and argued upon them infinitely
better than the right honourable gentleman. It was not,
however, a little curious to observe, in how different a manner
the minister in Ireland and the minister in England had re
commended the same propositions to two different parlia
ments. In Ireland they had been stated as highly advanta
geous to that country, as putting it upon the same footing
with Great Britain, and rendering it an emporium of trade,
and the source and supply of the British markets. In Eng
land, and in that House, they had been told, the system was
advisable, and the propositions were such as this country
might gladly accede to — why? " Because it gives Ireland no
thing but what it had before ; because Ireland cannot rival
you ; because Ireland is poor and feeble ; and because Ire
land must remain so, if not for ever, at least for a considerable
length of time."
Having urged this, Mr. Fox said, he was not certainly pre
pared, nor was that a fit moment for him to enter at large
into his objections to the several propositions, but he enter
tained many, and those of a nature not very easy to be re
moved. Some, in fairness and in candour, he would hint at.
Among others, the fifth proposition struck him as liable to
great objection, and as likely, in its operation, to contradict
and destroy the very principle that had been stated to be that
on which all the propositions were founded. He entered into
a discussion of the nature of what was termed the countervail
ing duties, and put the case of a piece of broad cloth about
to be imported from the country in which it was made. This
he argued to its conclusion, and urged that its result would be
a direct contravention of the principle of all the resolutions,
and a conversion of an established maxim of commercial po
licy. Mr. Fox also asked how, if the propositions were
adopted, they were to guard against the produce of the colo
nies of foreign states being first smuggled into Ireland, there
put on board Irish or British bottoms, and so brought into
the ports of this kingdom ? He said that large quantities of
rums, sugars, and much other produce of foreign powers
might thus be smuggled into Great Britain. The whole ten
dency of the propositions appeared to him to go the length of
appointing Ireland the sole guardian of the laws of naviga
tion, and grand arbitress of all the commercial interestfof
the empire ; a trust which he felt no sort of inclination to
part with out of our own hands; not even to Ireland, of whose

1 785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 59
generosity, loyalty, and gratitude no man entertained a higher
opinion. Having given, what he called, hints of several of his objec
tions, Mr. Fox proceeded to the defence of Lord North and
himself from the attacks of Mr. Pitt on the score of the con
cessions they had severally made to Ireland formerly. He said,
when the right honourable gentleman opened his speech, he had
given him very great pleasure ; but he soon took care effectu
ally to remove that satisfaction. When he had heard the right
iionourable gentleman solemnly express a hope that there was
a disposition in all parts of the House to unite in a business of
so much serious importance, he had taken it for granted he
should not have heard any thing like personal attack and per
sonal provocation from him that day ; but the right honour
able gentleman had soon undeceived him, by talking of ca
lumniatory publications industriously circulated, and by mak
ing a most uncalled-for attack upon his noble friend. At the
same time that his noble friend had made the propositions to
the committee in 1779, undoubtedly he had himself thought
great blame was due for the having suffered the affairs of Ire-
land to remain unadjusted thus long, and a share of that blame
he had then said, and always would say, was imputable to the
noble lord; but by no means was the noble lord alone to
blame. There were those now sitting near the right honour
able gentleman who, at that time, lived in confidence with the
noble lord, and supported his measures J to them he appealed
for their opinions of his noble friend's conduct, and whether
they. had not approved of the concessions he had proposed to
that House as proper to be made to Ireland ? The House
in general had approved of them, and he himself among
others. With regard to the resolution he had brought into
the House, to which the right honourable gentleman had ad
verted, that resolution, if he did not quite forget the circum
stance, did not originate with his majesty's minister, but
was the consequence of an address from one or other of the
Houses of Lords, either here or in Ireland. There were
those now in office who were at that time in office with him,
and he perfectly recollected that the resolution was shewn to
the whqle administration, who, at the time, approved of it.
Those to whom he alluded were Lord Camden, Lord Sidney,
and the Duke of Richmond ; but sure he was, at that time,
not one of them had it in contemplation to proceed to any
such extravagant length of concession to Ireland as the system
opened to the House that day would go. Mr. Fox said far
ther, in defence of Lord North's concessions, that the first
secular officer of the crown at that time had also been in the
same situation when his noble friend came forward with the

60 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [Feb. 22.
resolutions of 1779, and they had his approbation and con
sent. Before he concluded, he referred to what Mr. Dempster
had said, declaring, that he hoped the House would not be
so disgraced as to have the doctrine of his honourable friend
avowed by any minister, namely, that the dissentions in Ire
land rendered such an extent of concession, on the part of
Great Britain, necessary. He regarded the late proceedings
there with a view to prevent the holding of the meetings
of the delegates as highly unconstitutional. He said he should
consider it as no answer to hear it said, " the laws of Ire
land are not the same with those of this country." The sta
tute law might differ in particular cases, but the common
law was the same in both countries, springing from the same
source, governed by the same precedents and the same usages,
bearing the same analogy, and administered in courts pre
cisely similar in their constitution to the courts of Westmin
ster hall. What the common law of England, therefore,
would not countenance and warrant, the common law of
Ireland, he was persuaded, would neither countenance nor
warrant : but be that as it might, he hoped that House was
not to be told, that, from motives of apprehension and timi
dity, on account of the feuds and dissentions in Ireland, it be
came necessary for Great Britain to purchase her tranquillity
at the expence of her trade, her commerce, and her naviga
tion. He declared he differed with the chancellor of the
exchequer, toto ccelo, as to the points in which the right ho
nourable gentleman had said he would trust Ireland, and
those in which he chose* to " make assurance double sure :"
Mr. Fox said he would trust every thing to her generosity,
but not much to her prudence. Ireland would always give
Great Britain every possible assistance when she had it in her
power ; but she might not act in moments of difficulty with
a degree of wisdom equal to the exuberant gratitude of her
nature. He said he would not challenge the truth of the
declaration of the right honourable gentleman, that Ire
land would be perfectly satisfied, and would ask no more of
this country, after the proposed concessions were made ; this
might be true, for the best of all possible reasons, &c. because
this country would have nothing left to concede. He re
peated, that he beheved he should be under the necessity of
opposing the propositions, but he did most earnestly de
precate the idea, that because the parliament of Ireland had
agreed to the propositions, and because the rejecting them
would be productive of some mischief, that House was to be
precluded from freely debating them, and exercising their

I785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 6l
opinions as became them as members of parliament to exer
cise them for the good of their constituents.
The further consideration of the Resolution was postponed. The
chairman was desired to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
A fortnight elapsed before the subject again made its appearance ;
during which interim a report, prepared by a committee of the
board of trade and plantations, was laid by the minister upon the
table of the House of Commons, to assist its deliberations. This
report was stated to be founded upon the declarations and opinions
of some of the principal manufacturers and merchants in the king
dom, who had been examined by the above-mentioned committee ;
and its particular object was to prove the expediency of that part
of the system which related to reducing the duties payable upon
the importation of Irish produce and manufactures in Great Bri
tain, to what the same sort of articles were charged with in this
country, In the mean time, the merchants and manufacturers
who had been examined before the committee, joined by great
numbers of others from every part of the nation, met together for
the purpose of taking the Irish propositions into their consideration.
During the course of their proceedings, it appeared, that the opi
nions of the former were in direct contradiction to the inferences
which had been drawn upon their examination in the report laid
before parliament'. Whether this was occasioned by any change
which, upon a fuller consideration, had taken place in the minds of
the merchants and manufacturers themselves, or whether the com
mittee of the board of trade and plantations had strained and per
verted their declarations, it is not easy to determine. However, the
consequence was, that it threw a considerable degree of discredit
upon the report itself, and seemed to point out the necessity there
was for the House of Commons to examine the different com
mercial and manufacturing bodies concerned, at their own bar.
This mode of proceeding gave the first check to the system in its
progress through the House, whilst without doors it became more
unpopular, in proportion as it became more thoroughly inves
tigated. March 3.
Mr. Pitt observed to the House, that anxious as he was that they
should proceed in settling the commercial intercourse between the.
two kingdoms, he would not press the business forward with indis
creet haste. At that moment he was unapprized of any applica
tion that was intended to be made from any quarter to be heard by
counsel at the bar, or to produce any evidence, that might state
to the House facts and circumstances, which had relation to the
system, an outline of which he had the honour to open to them on
Tuesday se'nnight ; he should therefore name some day in the
next week for the committee to sit again, for the purpose of re
ceiving information, examixiing witnesses, or hearing counsel,

6z IRISH COMMERCIAL propositions, [March 3.
should any be offered ; and when that day came, if no application
should be made to derire that counsel might be heard, or witnesses
examined, it was his intention to propose some resolution upon the
business. He concluded with moving, That the Committee of the
whole House do sit again on Tuesday next.
Mr. Fox rose to declare, that should it happen that no ap
plication was made to be heard by counsel, or to offer evi
dence of facts at the bar, he for one should object to the right
honourable gentleman's pressing the House to come to
any vote respecting the propositions that had been laid
upon the table, as resolutions voted by the Irish parlia
ment ; nor should he object to such a motion only on Tuesday
next, but on that day week, or even that day month, should
they not have by that time heard something more of what had
been done upon the subject by the parliament of Ireland. Cir
cumstanced as they were, it was impossible to proceed to vote
any proposition whatever, before they knew the whole that
the parliament of Ireland had done upon the subject, without
getting into a situation the most extraordinary that ever par^
liament put a country into. He begged gentlemen most se
riously to revolve in their minds the very singular predicament
in which the parliament of England and the parliament of
Ireland would stand, should that House, either on Tuesday
next, or on any subsequent day, come to a decisive vote upon
the subject without previously knowing what was the ultima
tum of the parliament of Ireland. The right honourable gen
tleman had stated it as the great good of his system, and as
matter of reproach to the noble lord in the blue ribbon, and
fo himself and to such other persons as had ever proposed any
thing to be done for Ireland, that they had not taken care to
obtain a return on the part of Ireland for what this country
granted her. Now, as matters stood, the House was igno
rant what that return, what that something, what that quid pro
quo was. By slight conjecture only had he any idea what it was,
and his conjecture was grounded upon the resolution of the par
liament of Ireland, which Mr. Orde had proposed on the Mon
day subsequent to the vote of the former ten resolutions on the
Friday. He supposed, therefore, that it was that resolution that
was to be the return; but till the House knew it, they could
not vote a decisive resolution of their own without precipi
tating themselves into a dilemma. The situation of the two
countries would then be this : on the Journals of the parliament
^of England, and on the Journals of the parliament of Ireland,
would stand resolutions criminating each other. When he,
on a former occasion, reprobated the business being first opened
in Ireland, as a matter equally indecent and inconvenient, and
as a matter that" would be attended with serious ill conse-
16

1785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 63
quences, he had been answered by its being said, that if the
parliament of England had first voted resolutions, and the
parliament of Ireland should refuse to agree to them, it would
be a circumstance disgraceful to this country, and perfectly
nugatory. Now, this very disgrace would the House incur,
should it proceed to a vote, before the parliament of Ireland
had come to its ultimatum. It would be liable also to all the
other inconveniencies that he had himself stated. Mr. Fox
repeated his determination to oppose any attempt to press the
House to a vote upon the subject, so early as Tuesday, de
siring gentlemen to hold it in their minds, that they would
have done nothing but sow the seeds of future ill blood be
tween the two countries, should they vote a resolution, before
they were informed of the ultimate determination of Ireland.
In reply to some reflections cast on him by Mr. Pitt,.
Mr. Fox said, he had not been actuated by any wish pre
maturely, and at an improper time, to go into a general dis
cussion of the affairs of Ireland, but had thought it candid to
say fairly and plainly what his intentions were, if the right
honourable gentleman should next Tuesday press the House
to a decisive vote under the present circumstances of the busi
ness. The right honourable gentleman had charged him with in
consistency, but in fact there was no inconsistency in his having
said, he disapproved of the business having been opened to the
parliament of Ireland before itwas stated in that House, and his
having that day declared, he would object to any proposition
that House might be called upon to decide, before they had
heard the ultimatum of the parliament of Ireland. He had
, said, and he was sure that it woujd'have been more handsome
and more decent to have begun the business within those
walls ; but the other method having been taken, the case was
¦so altered, that it should be known entirely and completely
what the wishes of Ireland were, before that House proceeded
to take any decisive step in the business. For his part, he dis
approved of the matter, as well as the maimer, of making the
propositions; a frej grant on the part of each country struck
him as the properest mode of coming to an adjustment satis
factory to both. But, at any rate, it would have been better
for the two parliaments to have separately resolved what each
was disposed to jgh/e. Mr, Fox pointed out the extreme dif
ference between Ireland declaring voluntarily, and on her
own mere motive, what her wishes were; and the business be
ing opened there by an Englishman, a member of the British
parliament, who went over to Ireland, procured a seat in the

64 IRISH COMMERCIAL propositions. [March 1 1-
Irish House of Commons, and in the capacity of secretary to
the lord lieutenant, or, as it would, unconstitutionally speak
ing, be called, acting as the British minister in Ireland. He
contended that the ministers at home, and the ministers in
Ireland, had led the parliaments of the two countries into the
strange situation of holding a different language on the same
business, and voting resolutions of a contradictory and even
of a criminating nature. With regard to what the right ho
nourable gentleman had said of industrious misrepresentation,
he could only say for himself, that he had neither seen nor
countenanced any misrepresentations ; the publications he had
seen were mostly extracts from the speech of Mr. Orde in the
Irish House of Commons ; the right honourable gentleman,
therefore, must mean to charge Mr. Orde with misrepresenta
tion, if he intended to charge any body. But of this he was
sure, that to endeavour to represent the matter as it really was,
to inform the people of a subject of the first importance to the
national interests, to draw their attention to it sufficiently,
was a laudable and a worthy species of industry, of which
no man need be ashamed. Mr. Fox concluded with decla
ring his intention to oppose any attempt to call upon the
House to come to a decisive vote till they had heard farther
from Ireland.

March 11.
On Mr. Pitt's moving, That the House should again resolve it
self into a committee of the whole House, to take into further con
sideration so much of the king's speech to both Houses, upon the
25th of January last, as relateslo the adjustment of the commer
cial intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland,
Mr. Fox rose and said, that was the first opportunity that
had presented itself for him to say a few words on the report
of the lords of the committee of council, and of the conduct of
his majesty's ministers, which he thought extremely unwise,
in respect to the propositions of the Irish "parliament, at that
time on the table. It appeared from thereport of the lords
of the committee of council, that two questions had been re
ferred, the one to desire their consideration " Upon the
propriety of reducing duties payable in Great Britain on the
importation of goods, the growth and manufacture of Ireland,
to the same rate as the duties payable in Ireland on the im
portation of the like goods, the. growth and manufacture of

1785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 6$
Great Britain." The other, " What preferences are now
given to the importation of any article, the growth, produce,
or manufacture of Ireland, by any duty or prohibition on the
importation, use or sale of the like articles from foreign ports ;
and how far it may be the interest of Great Britain in future to
continue or alter the same ?"
What he meant chiefly to speak to, Mr. Fox said, was, two
points that had not been referred to the committee of coun
cil, and which, he must own, not a little surprized him. The
subject of the two questions that had been referred to the
committee, and any information that could be obtained upon
it, was certainly extremely desirable, extremely fit to be ob
tained by the committee of council, and extremely proper
to be by them submitted to the consideration of the House ;
but what had struck him, and what he believed had struck
every man's mind as the primary consideration of all, was the
question of the propriety and policy of permitting the pro
duce of Africa and America to be brought into Great Britain
through Ireland. On that, in his humble opinion, by far the
greater part of the doubts, whether the propositions were,
such as Great Britain ought to accede to or not, depended.
It was, therefore, not only extraordinary but somewhat unac
countable, that the question he had stated, was not referred
to the lords of the committee of council. With regard to
the questions that had been referred to the lords of the com
mittee of council, and the examination and evidence that they
had stated in their report, he did not doubt but they had pro
ceeded with great wisdom and prudence, and that the ques
tions to the manufacturers examined were such as ought to
have been put; but he could not help remarking, that the
lords of the committee of council themselves expressed a
wish that they had had more time to pursue their investiga
tion farther. This therefore confirmed opinions that had
been floating in his mind before, of the extreme and press
ing necessity for that House to have full and complete in
formation before them, relative to all the probable conse
quences of the carrying into effect the whole of the propo
sitions, previous to their going the length of the first propo
sition, which was a general resolution, involving and impli
cating all the rest.
Mr. Fox expatiated on this argument very amply, and
took infinite pains to press it on the minds of the House, as
a matter exceedingly important, and as a matter deserving
their most serious attention. If the lords of the committee
of council, he said, whose judgement was not definitive, and
was merely an opinion, neither operative nor binding, found
-occasion to express a wish, that they had been able to have
vol. m. J?

66 irish commercial propositions. [March i r.
given farther time to their investigation, and to have ob
tained a greater degree of intelligence and information, how
much more necessary was it for that House, who were to act,
and not merely to state matters of opinion, to be fully in
formed, before they proceeded to vote a resolution, to be
made the basis of an intercourse with Ireland, that was not
meant as a temporary expedient, but as a final and conclusive
system? Let gentlemen consider the extremely disagreeable
and even melancholy consequences that must ensue, if they
precipitately voted the general resolution, and they should
afterwards have applications made to them, in objection to
the other propositions. In that case, what must Ireland feel,
and what would she have to complain of, but a departure
from an implied agreement, and a gross breach of national
faith ? — a circumstance that would be attended with the most
fatal consequences to both kingdoms.
He wondered, therefore, that the right honourable gentle
man had not thought it necessarj', long before that time, to
call to the bar of that House some of the best-informed and
principal manufacturers of the kingdom, whose interests were
likely to be at all affected by the system of intercourse to be
arranged with Ireland, in order that the House might learn -
from them the probable consequence, with regard to the dif
ferent branches of manufacture they were severally concerned
in, that would result from that House proceeding to form a
system of intercourse with Ireland, on the propositions that
had been voted by the Irish parliament. Such information
could not be had too soon, both upon the great consideration
of the propriety of permitting the produce of Africa and
America to be brought into this kingdom through Ireland, and
upon the questions that had been referred to the lords of the
committee of council. Indeed, there was an additional, and,
in his mind, a very cogent reason, in proof of the neces
sity of calling witnesses before them on the two latter questions ;
and that was, that it appeared upon the face of the report of
the lords of the committee of council, that the lords had drawn
conclusions from the evidence given by the merchants and ma
nufacturers they examined, which the merchants and manu
facturers were at this time contradicting at the meetings that
were daily holding on the subject of the proposition. The
inferences drawn from the examination of the persons examined
before the committee of council, and stated in the report,
were directly the reverse of the inferences those persons drew
themselves, as far as their public conversation and conduct
went to prove what their opinions were. Mr. Fox here took
occasion to mention the proceedings of the meeting of the
West India merchants on Tuesday last, which, he said, were
io

1 785-2 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 67
of a very different tendency from that the right honour
able gentleman had conceived, and stated to the House in the
debate on that day. The West India merchants had not at
that meeting declared that alarm, and very great alarm, was
not entertained by them on account of the propositions ; that
alarm was undoubtedly still entertained by them ; but the mat
ter in discussion, at the meeting last Tuesday, was merely the
mode of their proceeding, in order to have such regulations
introduced into the bills that should be brought into parlia
ment, as should best tend to secure them and their commerce
from the impending danger, which they thought likely to re
sult, were not such regulations introduced. All that the issue
of the meeting amounted to was, a resolution not to petition
the House in that stage of the business.
Mr. Fox said, there were different orders and descriptions of
manufacturers, whose trade would be very materially affected
by the intended plan ofarrangement, and whom that House
ought to have before them, previous to their proceeding to
vote their general propositions. One set of men, not ordina
rily ranked with manufacturers, though, strictly speaking, they
were so, the ship-builders of Great Britain, ought in particu
lar to be called upon and examined as to the consequence to
their manufacture that they were of opinion would follow,
in case the propositions were agreed to. By thus pressing for
the manufacturers to be called to the bar, he did not mean to
have it understood, that the House ought to be guided solely
by their opinions ; undoubtedly not. The House should act
in this, as in every other case, according to its own sense, of
the wisdom and policy of the measures to be taken ; but he
must nevertheless contend, that without having the fullest in
formation before them, it was not possible for the House to
judge, what the wisdom and the policy of the plan of inter
course with Ireland, that had been proposed to them, were.
It might possibly be said, that calling for such information
would occasion delay, and take 'up a great deal of time. That
was, in his mind, no objection to what he had proposed ; for
let it occasion what delay, or take up what time it would, that
time would be well spent by the House making itself thorough
ly master of the extent of the subject, before it came to a deci
sive vote upon it. Let gentlemen recollect, that when they
had voted the general resolution, the House was committed to
all the remaining resolutions : from which they could not re
tract without giving Ireland cause to complain of a breach of
national faith, and without laying the ground for much future
mischief. He pressed this again and again on the House, and satfh
he trusted it was the general wish of both sides, and the wish
f 2

68 irish commercial propositions. [March II.
of every man both here and in Ireland, that the plan should be
fully understood by both countries, and that there should not
remain the smallest possible chance of future cavil. He asked if
gentlemen felt themselves prepared to go the length of voting
the first resolution, before they knew more of the conse
quences likely to result from voting the rest. There was not
one of them that did not, day after day, suggest new difficul
ties to his mind. The fifth proposition for instance, that re
specting the countervailing duties, was a proposition ex
tremely prolific of doubt and alarm. He dwelt for some time
upon this, and said, the House ought, at least, to have the
same opportunity of examining persons who were competent to
give them information upon any parts of the subject, as the
lords of the committee of council. For their own good,
therefore, for the security of administration, for the future
repose and quiet of both kingdoms, he hoped the right ho
nourable gentleman would see the propriety of what he had
proposed. In reply to some observations made by Mr. Pitt,
Mr. Fox rose again, and said he really had not seen the
report of the committee of council till within the last two days,
and therefore he had not an earlier opportunity of saying
what he had thought it necessary to say on that day. With
regard to his not having moved for persons to be called to the
bar, he had purposely avoided it. Let the right honourable
gentleman recollect, that he was, as it were, a kind of marked
man, and that the right honourable gentleman and himself
were involved together in many political opinions, and in
various topics, that placed them before the public in a point
of view more conspicuous than that in which most other men
moved; under such circumstances, it would not have been
proper for him to have made any such motion ; besides, he
chose to save himself from affording room for insinuation, as
the right honourable gentleman had shewn himself ready
enough to insinuate, even when there could be no grounds
for it, that he had brought to the bar persons who had been
prompted to give such evidence as should throw most impedi
ments in the way of the proposed system, of the intercourse
with Ireland. ' Having said this, Mr. Fox repeated his argu
ment, how necessary it was to call the merchants and manu
facturers to the bar, who had been examined before the com
mittee of privy council ; because, as their declarations at their
meetings were directly contradictory to the inferences which
the lords of the committee had drawn from their examinations
and stated in their report, the House ought to have an oppor-

1 785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 69
tunity of hearing from themselves what their sentiments were.
Mr. Fox urged Mr. Pitt not to wait for this or that member
moving for persons to be examined, but of his own accord to
bring to the bar some of the best informed of each \ branch
of capital manufacture, that the House might sift the matter
to the bottom before they embarked in it.
May 12.
During the remainder of the month of March, and the whole
of April, the House was principally occupied in receiving the pe
titions and hearing the evidence of manufacturers and merchants
of every description. This laborious investigation having been
gone through, the propositions were again brought forward by Mr.
Pitt, on the 1 2th of May, but with a variety of amendments, va
riations, and additions. To the original set of propositions, several '
new ones were added, some of them only supplemental to, and
explanatory of the former, but several containing much new and
important matter. The Propositions as proposed this day to the
House by Mr. Pitt were as follow :
" Resolved, 1. That it is highly important to the general interest
of the British empire, that the intercourse and commerce between
Great Britain and Ireland , should be finally regulated on perma-
nant and equitable principles, for the mutual benefit of both coun
tries. 2. " That a full participation of commercial advantages should
be permanently secured to Ireland, whenever a provision equally
permanent and secure shall be made by the parliament of that king
dom, towards defraying in proportion to its growing prosperity,
the necessary expences in time of peace, of protecting the trade,
and general interests of the empire.
3. " That towards carrying into full effect so desirable a settle
ment, it is fit and proper that all articles, not the growth or manu
facture of Great Britain or Ireland, should be imported into each
kingdom from the other reciprocally, under the same regulations,
and at the same duties, if subject to duties, to which they are liable
when imported directly from the place of their growth, product,
or manufacture ; and that all duties originally paid on importation
into either country respectively, except on arrack and foreign
brandy, and on rum, and alL sorts of strong waters, not imported
from the British colonies in the West Indies or America, shall be
fully drawn back on exportation to the other.
4. " That it is highly important to the general interests of the
British empire ; that the laws for regulating trade and naviga
tion, should be the same in Great Britain and Ireland; and
therefore, that it is essential towards carrying into effect the
present settlement, that all laws which have been made, or shall
be made in Great Britain, for securing exclusive privileges to the
ships and mariners of Great Britain, Ireland, and the British colo
nies and plantations, and for regulating and restraining the trade
of the British colonies and plantations, shall be in force in Ireland
r 3

7© IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
in the same manner as in Great Britain ; and that proper mea
sures should from time to time be taken, for effectually carry
ing the same into execution. ,
5. " That it is further essential to this settlement, that all goods
and commodities of the growth, produce or manufacture of British
or foreign colonies, in America or the West Indies, and the Bri
tish or foreign settlements on the coast of Africa, imported into ^
Ireland, should, on importation, be subject to the same duties
as the like goods are, or from time to time shall be subject to
upon importation into Great Britain.
6. " That in order to prevent illicit practices, injurious to the
revenue and commerce of both kingdoms, it is expedient that all,
goods, whether of the growth, produce, or manufacture of Great
Britain or Ireland, or of any foreign country, which shall here
after be imported into Great Britain from Ireland, or into Ireland
from Great Britain, should be put, by laws to be passed in the
parliament of the two kingdoms, under the same regulations with
respect to bonds, cockets, and other instruments, to which the like
goods are now subject, in passing from one port of Great Britain
to another ; and that all goods, the growth, produce, or manufac
ture of Ireland, imported into Great Britain, be accompanied with
a like certificate, as is now required by law, on the importation
of Irish linens into Great Britain.
7. " That for the like purpose it is also expedient, that when
any goods, the growth, produce, or manufacture of the British
West India islands, shall be shipped from Ireland for Great
Britain, they should be accompanied with such original certificates
of the revenue officers of the British sugar colonies, as shall be
required by law on importation into Great Britain ; and that
when the whole quantity included in one certificate, shall not be
shipped at any one time, the original certificate properly endorsed
as to quantity, should be sent with the first parcel ; and to iden
tify the remainder, if shipped at any future period, new certifi
cates should be granted by the principal officers of the ports in
Ireland, extracted from a register of the original documents, speci
fying the quantities before shipped from thence, by what vessels,
and to' what port.
8. " That it is essential for carrying into effect the present
settlement, that all goods exported from Ireland to the British co
lonies in the West Indies or America, should from this time be
made liable to such duties and drawbacks, and put under such
regulations as may be necessary, in order that the same may not
be exported with less incumbrance of duties or impositions, than
the like goods shall be burthened with when exported from Great
Britain. 9. " That it is essential to the general commercial interest of
the empire, that no goods of the growth, produce, or manufacture
of any countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope, should be im
portable into Ireland from any foreign European country ; and that
so long as the parliament of this kingdom shall think it adviseable
that the commerce to the countriesbeyond the Cape of Good
Hope shall be carried on solely by an exclusive company, no goods

1785-] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 7 1
ef the growth, produce, Or manufacture of the said countries should
be allowed to be imported into Ireland, but through Great Britain,
and that the ships going from Great Britain to any of the said
countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope should not be restrained
from touching at any of the ports in Ireland, and taking on board
there any of the goods of the growth, produce, or manufacture of
that kingdom.
10. " That it is necessary, for the general benefit of the British
empire, that no prohibition should exist in either country against
the importation, use, or sale of any article, the growth, pro
duce, or manufacture of the other (' except such as either
' kingdom may judge expedient, from time to time, upon corn,
* meal, malt, flour, and biscuits,') and that the duty on the im
portation of every such article, if subject to duty in either country,
should be precisely the same in the one country as in the other,
except where an addition may be necessary, in either country, in
consequence of an internal duty on any sueh article of its own
consumption. 11. " That in all cases where the duties on articles of the
growth, product, or manufacture of either country, are different
on the importation into the other, it is expedient that they should
be reduced in the kingdom where they are the highest, to the
amount payable in the other ; and that all such articles should be
exportable from the kingdom into which they shall be imported, as
free from duty as any similar commodities or home manufac
tures of the same kingdom.
.12. " That it is also proper, that in all cases where the articles
01 the consumption of either /kingdom shall be charged with an
internal duty on the manufacture, the same manufacture, when
imported from the other, may be charged with a further duty
on importation, adequate to countervail the internal duty on the
manufacture ; except in the case of beer imported into Ireland ;
such further duty to continue so long only as the internal con
sumption shall be charged with the duty or duties, to balance
which it shall be imposed, and that where there is a duty on
the importation of the r#w material of any manufacture, in one
kingdom, greater than the duty on the like raw material in the
other, or where the whole or part of such duty on the raw mate
rial is drawn back, or compensated, on exportation of the ma
nufacture from one kingdom to the other, such manufacture may
on its importation be charged with a countervailing duty as may
be sufficient to subject the same so imported to the same bur
dens as the manufacture composed of the like raw material is sub
ject to, in consequence of duties on the importation of such ma
terial in the kingdom into which such manufacture is so im
ported ; and the said manufactures so imported, shall be entitled
to such drawbacks or bounties on exportation, as may leave the
same subject to no heavier Burden than the home-made ma
nufacture. 13. " That in order to give permanency to the settlement now
intended to be established, it is necessary that no prohibition, or
new, or additional duties, should be hereafter imposed in either
f 4

72 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
kingdom, on the importation of any article of the growth, pro
duct, or manufacture of the other, except such additional duties
as may be requisite to balance duties on internal consumption,
pursuant to the foregoing resolution.
14. " That for the same purpose, it is necessary, farther, that
no prohibition, or new, or additional duty, should be hereafter
imposed in either kingdom on the exportation of any article of na
tive growth, product, or manufacture, from thence to the other ;
except such as either kingdom may deem expedient, from time to
time, upon corn, meal, malt, flour, and biscuits.
15. " That for the same purpose, it is necessary that no boun
ties whatsoever should be paid or payable in either kingdom, on
the exportation of any article to the other, except such as relate
to corn, meal, malt, flour, and biscuits, beer and spirits distil
led from corn, and such as are in the nature of drawbacks, or
compensations for duties paid ; and that no bounty should be
granted on the exportation of any article to any British colonies
or plantations, or on the exportation of any article imported from
the British plantations, or any manufacture made of such article,
unless in cases where a similar bounty is payable in Great Britain,
on exportation from thence, or where such bounty is merely in the
nature of a drawback, or compensation of or for duties paid, over
and above any paid thereon in Britain.
16. " That it is expedient, for the general benefit of the British
empire, that the importation of articles from foreign states should
be regulated, from time to time in each kingdom, on such terms as
may afford an effectual preference to the importation of similar
articles of the growth, product, or manufacture of the other.
17. " That it is expedient, that the copy-rights of the authors
and booksellers of Great Britain, should continue to be protected
in the manner they are at present, by the laws of Great Britain ;
and that it is just that measures should be taken by the parliament
of Ireland, for giving the like protection to the copy-rights of the
authors and booksellers of that kingdom.
18. " That the appropriation of whatever sum the gross heredi
tary revenue of the kingdom of Ireland (the due collection tliereof
being secured by permanent provisions) shall produce, after de
ducting all drawbacks, repayments, or bounties granted in the na
ture of drawbacks, over and above the sum of six hundred and
fifty-six thousand pounds in each year, towards the support of the
naval force of the empire, to be applied in such manner as the par
liament of Ireland shall direct, by an act to be passed for that pur
pose, will be a satisfactory provision, proportioned to the growing
prosperity of that kingdom, towards defraying, in time of peace,
the necessary expences of protecting the trade and general in
terests of the empire."
Mr. Pitt opened the business to the committee, and concluded
a speech of considerable length with moving the first proposition.
Lord North submitted it to the candour of the chancellor of the
exchequer whether it would not be proper to adjourn the debate,
and cause the new resolutions to be printed for the use of the
members. Lord North having concluded his speech, after a short
pause,

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 73
Mr. Fox rose and addressed himself to the chairman of the
committee as follows :
Mr. Gilbert ; though I now rise to submit my sentiments
on the present important subject, yet I beg it may be under
stood by the committee, that I shall cheerfully give way to
any gentleman on the other side, who may be authorised to
declare, that it is not meant to press us to a vote this night.
I do not conceive it possible indeed, that an}' objection can be
made to the motion of my noble friend. The vast variety of
matter perfectly new, as well as the numerous alterations of
that which we had previously before us, demanding the most
minute and accurate discussion, surely the right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer will not force the committee,
at an hour so unseasonable, to come to a decision upon so dif
ficult and so perplexed a subject. I have paused, Sir, to give
an opportunity for discovering, if such be the intention of
gentlemen: but from their continued silence, it is evident
they are determined, at all events, to precipitate the com
mittee to this extraordinary and unparalleled decision. I
must, therefore, intreat a more than usual indulgence from
the committee, if, compelled as I find myself to enter into
this important discussion, I shall, even at so late an hour,
intrude for a considerable length of time on their patience.
The committee will recollect^ that in addition to the eleven
original propositions, no less than sixteen new ones are now
for the first time submitted to parliament; so that at one
o'clock hi the morning, I have to enter into the discussion of
no less than twenty-seven of the most important and complex
propositions that ever were the subject of parliamentary de
bate. Nor is this the whole of the difficulty: the sixteen
supplemental propositions are not confined to verbal explana
tions, or to mere literal amendments of the former; on the
contrary, they directly change the whole tenor, and abso
lutely subvert the main principle of the original system, upon
which the right honourable gentleman declared it to be his
fixed intention to proceed ; so that in truth they are altoge
ther as unexpected, as they obviously are new and contradic
tory. Surely, therefore, under circumstances so very novel
and embarrassing, I may with less presumption intreat the
committee to forgive that unavoidable intrusion on their time,
which must be the consequence of compelling us to come to a
vote on so interesting and so complicated a subject, before it
is scarcely possible for gentlemen to form even any general
ideas on the whole of the subject, as it is now modelled.
But first with respect to this extraordinary system, most
undoubtedly the claim of merit in being the author of it, can
admit of no question. My noble friend has waved all possi-

74 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
ble pretensions to it; but not, I am sure, more chearfully
than I concur with him, in declaring it to be the sole and en
tire possession of the right honourable gentleman who has
officially produced it. With him let the whole credit of it
reside, undisputed and unenvied. He indeed who contends
with him for its honours must be instigated by unjustifiable
motives : for, surely, never did there appear a work more
completely, more indivisibly the sole and genuine composition
of its author, than the present system evidently demonstrates
itself to be exclusively the work of the right honourable gen
tleman. No necessity can be alleged to have given rise to it,
for it flows from the mere will of the proposer. No urgent,
no pressing calamity bore a share in its introduction. It is
the offspring of peace and domestic tranquillity. Surely,
therefore, it would be false and injurious to allege, that the
people of Ireland had forced the British minister into a tame
surrender of the' manufactures and commerce of our country.
The fact is directly the reverse. The British minister has
proffered this surrender from his own mere motion, his own
sound will, his own unbiassed judgement. Unquestionably,
therefore, he, and he only, is clearly entitled to enjoy all the
merits and all the honours of a system so completely and so
perfectly his own.
Perhaps, indeed, from the examples which the right ho
nourable gentleman has so frequently afforded us of a won
derful perseverance in the defence of his own opinions, and
at the same time as complete an adoption of the amendments
which we suggest, and he himself disapproves, we ought not
to be very much astonished at any new and sudden appear
ance that his present system may have assumed ; but I confess,
however, it was with considerable astonishment that I heard
the right honourable gentleman state his new propositions.
For these, Sir, are at once, directly, totally, and vitally in
contradiction to the whole of that system on which he set out,
and from which, if we had trusted merely to his own solemn
declarations, we must have believed it impossible that he
could deviate in the minutest degree. In saying this, the
committee must be sensible that I speak merely from the im
pression which the resolutions have made on my mind as they
were cursorily read over and explained by the right honour
able gentleman. I have not had time, and the committee are
not to be permitted to have time, to read and weigh these pro
positions before they determine upon their merits; but such
is the impression which, on the first blush, they have made
upon my mind.
Sir, I have all along understood, that the basis of the right
honourable gentleman's original system was reciprocity in

1785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 75
correspondent duties, and. reciprocity in the prohibition of
the export of raw materials. Now, these principles, in my
mind, the right honourable gentleman has completely aban
doned in his new propositions ; for, particularly in the article
of beer, an exception is made to the reciprocity in correspon
dent duties, and, in the seventh resolution, a change is made
with respect to prohibitions. The right honourable gentleman
has, therefore, retracted and recanted his original principles ;
he has abandoned the groimd on which he set out, and on
which he so frequently pledged himself that the whole of his
propositions should stand or fall. He has abandoned the re
ciprocity in correspondent duties ; he has abandoned the re
ciprocal prohibition of raw materials. In these instances,
which if they are said to be trifling in themselves, are not
trifles when considered as departures from principle, he has
abandoned his ground ; and by doing this, he opens a new
system, and comes forward with a set of propositions, so far
forth diametrically opposite to, and fundamentally different
from, that system which he himself has most rep'eatedly as
sured us could not possibly admit of the slightest change, and
was, indeed, to be wholly inviolable.
Sir, the right honourable gentleman reprobates the charge
which has been imputed to him, of rashness in the original
propositions. Was there ever a Gharge made with more truth,
or demonstrated with more clearness i Has not the right ho
nourable gentleman's conduct on this day given the most un
equivocal testimony to the original rashness 'of his system ?
What can be a more decisive proof of original rashness, than
subsequent retraction? The right honourable gentleman
brings forward a set of resolutions, as the basis of a system for
the intercourse between the two countries: he pledges the
government of this kingdom for the literal establishment of
his system: he proudly resists inquiry, and scorns delibera
tion ; but, when circumstances arise which he has not ability
to overcome, and time, in spite of his opposition, is procured
for inquiry and discussion, he is constrained to acknowledge
the errors of his first opinions, and he comes forward with a set
of propositions directly the reverse of the former. Whether this
does not exhibit the rashness of the right honourable gentle
man in colours more warm and durable than any with which
we on this side the House are able to characterise his conduct,
I submit to the committee and the public. The rashness of
the right honourable gentleman is proved by the right ho
nourable gentleman himself ; and it is singularly striking —
that by the whole of his behaviour — the rashness of one day
is to be proved by the rashness of another. He now brings
forward to the committee a set of propositions directly contra-

76 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12-
dictory to those on which he first proceeded; and having
thus himself demonstrated the rashness of his own conduct in
the first instance, he becomes enamoured of this boasted weak
ness, and yet most liberally determines that we also shall be
admitted to a full participation of it, by a rash, premature
adoption of these his latest notions ; which, however, may as
suddenly and as consistently be abandoned as the former. So
hostile is he to deliberation, such an avowed enemy to every
thing that looks like inquiry and reflection, thai even on this
day, when he is suffering the shame of rashness, he calls upon
us to be rash. Although his propositions have been but once
cursorily read over, and in that reading embellished and set
off with all the lustre of his eloquence,— although they are
perfectly new, — and although he has not submitted them to
the committee till after midnight, he .demands and compels
us to come to a vote on them. The decency of this conduct
I will not insist upon ; but thus driven, thus forced to a divi
sion, I must, however unwilling to give a hasty negative,
vote directly against bis propositions, as conceiving them to be
at the best unnecessary, most probably pernicious, but un
doubtedly so productive of an entire revolution in our com
mercial system, as to involve a train of consequences, against
which the wisest and best characters of this country might de
spair of providing any adequate security.
But, Sir, I must congratulate the committee — I must con
gratulate the country — on the happy escape which we have
had from the system proposed by the right honourable gen
tleman but two months since. That system, the ruin of which
has been this day so ably demonstrated, Was then within four
and twenty hours of being carried through this House : so
that when we look back on all the circumstances of the case,
we have indeed good reason to rejoice in our fortunate escape.
The first propositions, when they were originally opened in
this House, were pronounced to be so pure and beneficial — '
so clearly and demonstrably perfect, that not a moment was
to be wasted in a useless discussion of their merits. The
right honourable gentleman, therefore, inveighed against the
strange, uncandid opposition which was made to those his first
propositions. He attributed the opinions of this side of the
House to mere faction and disappointment : he called our
solemn appeals to the legislature and to the nation, illiberal
artifices to excite unnecessary clamour : he gave a haughty
defiance to the manufacturers and merchants, to exhibit
any reasonable argument against a system so replete with
every beneficial consequence to themselves ; and he triumphed
in the circumstance, that for some days not a single petition
was brought to the House from any part of the country

1 785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 77
against those propositions. Afterwards, indeed, he was forced
to abate his triumph ; he found no want of petitions, nor of
argument; but his language was still lofty, and his mind
implacable. His system was so superior to the petulance
and faction of those who opposed it, that he declared his
resolution of carrying it into a law, even to the letter of
the specific resolutions. Convinced, however, as we always
were, that these resolutions were fraught with injury and
ruin to the manufactures and commerce of this country, we
warned — we conjured the House to deliberate — to call for
information — to examine those, who, from their situations,
were the most likely to be possessed of intelligence. We
called for the commissioners of customs, and the commissioners
of excise, that the House might learn from them, whether
from the operation of these resolutions the revenues of the
country were hot instantly exposed to insurmountable dangers.
The right honourable gentleman reprobated the proceeding.
He asserted, that we called for these commissioners merely
to gain time;, that our purpose was insidious delay, in order
to inflame the public, and stir up factious clamours. But
what has been the issue of all this ? Will the right honour
able gentleman now dare to attribute our conduct to those
unworthy motives ? The commissioners, whose opinions on
the subject he considered of so little avail, have declared by
their report, that material and alarming injury would unavoid
ably arise from these resolutions, fraught, as they conceive
them to be, with innumerable dangers. But still more
strongly has the right honourable gentleman himself, on this
day, described, in his own beautiful language, the variety of
ruinous consequences that must have attended his original
system. He himself has enumerated to the committee the
long train of evils we have escaped, by opposing his pro
positions — he himself has emphatically described the destruc
tion we should have incurred by adopting his own exploded
system. Let the committee recollect the detail of fatal con
sequences thus authoritatively admitted.
First, it has been now admitted, that if the original reso
lutions had passed, we should have lost for ever the monopoly
of the East-India trade. It has been admitted, that we could
no longer have renewed the exclusive charter of the company ;
but the sister kingdom, having once an equal power with our
selves to trade to Asia, we must wholly have depended on the
will of Ireland for a renewal of the charter, by which the
monopoly could alone have been maintained.
If these resolutions had passed into a law, it has equally
been admitted, that we must have hazarded all the revenue
arising from spirituous liquors; no distinction having been

78 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
made between our own and foreign liquors, nor any provision
thought of to prevent their admission into this country.
If these resolutions had passed into a law, we should equally
have sacrificed the whole of the navigation laws of this coun
try. These laws, the great source of our commercial opu
lence, the prime origin of our maritime strength, would at
once have been delivered up in trust to Ireland, leaving us
for ever after totally dependent on her policy, and on her
bounty, for the future guardianship of our dearest interests.
If these resolutions had passed into a law, we should have
opened the door to a more extensive contraband trade than
ever yet was known to exist in this country, for not a shadow
of protection was provided against every species of smuggling,
not even the means which we think it necessary to use in our
own traffic from port to port — that of requiring bonds, cock-
ets, and other instruments, on goods sent coastwise.
If these resolutions had been carried into a law, we should
have endangered the loss of the colonial market to the manu
factures of Great Britain ; for no care was taken to prevent
Ireland from giving bounties, or allowing drawbacks, on
goods exported to the colonies ; so that it was left in their
power to give so decisive an advantage to their own manu
factures, as must have ascertained to them the market, or,
which would have been equally ruinous, have forced us to
enter into d" warfare of bounties, to the extinction of our
revenues. If these resolutions had been carried into a law, dangers as
extensive must have equally been incurred by our colonies ;
for not a single provision was stipulated for laying permanent
high duties on the produce of foreign colonies imported into
Ireland ; so that, at any future time, Ireland might have taken
off the annual high duties, and given admission to the pro
duce of foreign colonies, on terms, which must completely
have ruined our West India islands. I need not state to the
committee a fact so universally known, as that the produce of
our colonies is dearer than that of the foreign islands. But
we have nevertheless preferred the home market, on account
of the natural interest which we have in them : and un
doubtedly we must continue to do so. Ireland has no such
obligation: on the contrary, her interest would as forcibly
lead her to the foreign colonies.
If these resolutions, therefore, had passed into a law, we
should have been irretrievably bound to our part of the bar
gain, whereas Ireland would by no means have been confined
to hers.
If these resolutions had passed into a law, by the monstrous
incongruity of the fifth, it would have been in the power of

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 79
Ireland to draw a revenue from our consumption. They had
only to lay an internal duty in Ireland, on the articles of
our consumption, equal to the internal duty that might exist
on such articles in this country, and it must have followed,
that they of course would have drawn the revenue frpm the
country that was to consume the goods. This astonishing
absurdity is done away by the removal of the latter part of
the fifth resolution. Thus also, if these resolutions had passed
into a law, the leather trade must as certainly have been
ruined ; for though we were bound in all future time to send
our oak bark to Ireland duty free, Ireland was not bound to
prohibit the exportation of raw hides to Great Britain, with
out which the trade could not subsist.
These, Sir, are some few of the evils, which confessedly
would have taken place, if the original resolutions, which the
right honourable gentleman proposed but two months ago,
had unfortunately passed into a law. All these menaces,
these fatal consequences of his own rash system, the right
honourable gentleman has on this day himself acknowledged,
at the same moment that he introduces, for the first time, a
new set of complicated propositions, in remedy of the detected
mischiefs of the former. In doing this, he has at once com
pletely changed the ground on which he first set out ; for
having originally declared, that the very spirit and soul of
his system was to square and finally determine the relative
situation of the two countries, he then maintained that this
salutary, this grand, this primary object, could only be ac
complished by a complete and perfect reciprocity ; yet that
essential, that vital principle, he has now totally and directly
abandoned, as well in the remarkable change which he has
introduced in the seventh resolution, as. in the article of beer,
the export of which is of infinite consequence. Reciprocity,
therefore, which was the vital principle, the spirit, the quint
essence of his system, is now completely abandoned.
Sir, that these alterations are for the better, I most cheer
fully admit. Undoubtedly, they tend to make the present
system far more palatable to Englishmen. Why then, it may
be asked, do I now state them ? Clearly for this reason : to
manifest to the House the important benefits of deliberation.
I mention them, to shew that the alarm given by gentlemen
of this side of the House, was a most fortunate alarm for
this country. By that fortunate alarm, the manufacturing
communities in every corner of the kingdom have been apprized
of their danger ; they have had time to come forward ; they
have had time to give those lights to the committee which
have been the happy means of producing the alterations of
this day. I mention them to shew what must have been the

80 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May I 2.
consequences to the empire if the committee had implicitly
fallen into the system,- which the rashness of the right ho
nourable gentleman, I will not say his ignorance, but which,
to give it an easier term, his extraordinary confidence in his
own abilities, induced him so peremptorily and so authorita
tively to propose.
There is also another, and even more powerful reason for my
enlarging on these important alterations. It is, Sir, to con
vince the committee, that there is still a powerful appeal to our
equity, our benevolence, and even our common sense, for afford
ing the merchants and manufacturers of this country a much
longer period of deliberation, and surely as strong a claim on
the justice of the minister, to suspend the vote of the com
mittee on a question of such infinite magnitude to all our just
and dearest interests. The committee will be taught, by a
due estimation of the benefits already acquired from salutary
delays, that most important advantages are to be derived from
fair inquiry and impartial discussion. If in two months such
serious and consequential errors have been discovered, what
may we not expect from longer time and more careful inves
tigation ? If in two months the right honourable gentleman
has gleaned so much from this side of the House, and from
gentlemen whose ideas he certainly is not much disposed
avowedly and ingenuously to adopt, however willing he may
be to benefit in secret from them, what may we not expect,
when his bright talents have had more time to work on the
suggestions with which we have furnished him ? That he
has largely profited from this side of the House, the committee
will readily perceive ; neither will they, I believe, consider it
extremely presumptuous, if I arrogate some degree of honour
to myself, in having contributed a little to the amendments
of this day. From my right honourable friend (Mr. Eden)
the minister has certainly collected many more of his new
opinions. Surely, therefore, from the excellent use which
the right honourable gentleman has already made of our dis
coveries and suggestions, it will more and more be the wish of
all impartial men, that he should have time to mature the
many other matters which he has not yet so far honoured us
as entirely to adopt. For what must be the fruits of those
ideas, how ample, how rich must be the harvest they produce
when his protecting hand shall raise them from obscurity to a
richer soil : when he himself shall " transplant them to his
own fair garden where the sun always shines." Nothing surely
can be more beneficial than to wait for their mature produc
tion : I speak for myself, and I am sure I may speak also for
my right honourable friend and the other gentlemen round
me, that we shall be happy tp trust our progeny to his care,
14

I 7 85.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 8 I
If he is a plagiary, he is a plagiary uncommonly endowed ;
for he decorates that which he steals in apparel so gay and
luxuriant, he enriches whatever he takes with such additions
of flowers and embroidery, that though, as their legitimate
parents, we recognize our own offspring, we view them with
no small degree of wonder in their strange and sumptuous
attire. On this day, indeed, we may be proud to contem
plate the predominating efficacy of our own suggestions ;
and on this day alone has the right honourable gentleman,
for the very first time, condescended to depart from his usual
stateliness and overbearing sense of his own superiority.
Upon this day, with new and unaccustomed affability, he
neither reprobates' nor reviles the opinions to which he has
deigned to accede. It is to us a strange and unexpected tri
umph, not indeed to have our ideas received by the right ho
nourable gentleman, (in that acceptance he is courtesy itself)
but to hear them, even in the moment they are admitted, un-
stigmatized by the receiver, nor as usual traduced in words,
while they are approved in fact, and vilified at the very mo
ment of their adoption.
The right honourable gentleman, whom my noble friend
(Lord North) most truly painted, when he asserted, that " he
had a mind which found gratification in invective*," has this
day alluded to a letter written by a noble lord as a dispatch
from Ireland, during the administration of which I had the
honour to make a part, and he has insinuated, that the letter
manifested an intention in that administration to have gone
the lengths of the present system, "if they had had energy
" sufficient for so great an adventure." I did not expect that
even from him such a construction would have been put upon
that dispatch. From his colleagues in office, I am confident
of meeting with more candour. But the letter has been read :
I submit to the, committee the terms of that letter, and call
upon them to say, if the English language could furnish ex
pressions more decisive of the contrary opinion, than those in
which we declared to the lord lieutenant, that we could not
encourage him to make a promise to Ireland which, if ful-

* Lord North said in the course of his speech, " There are some men,
Mr. Gilbert, who seem to be organized for slander; there are some men
who, by the peculiar temperament of their nature, find gratification in invec
tive, and so eager are they for the enjoyment of their lust, that they go about
to seek for blemishes, in order to expose them ; and in pursuit of their game,
they will sometimes pretend to find them where they are not. Such men,
if they propose any measure, are infinitely more desirous to make it stand
upon the faults of others, than on its own merits; and iuch a man I take the
right honourable gentleman to be." . .
VOL. III. G

82 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
filled, would be destructive to Britain. In that opinion we were
then unanimous, and to that opinion we firmly adhere. But
are these the arts by which the noble lord and I are to be de
graded in the eyes of Britain ? Let the minister persistin
these unworthy insinuations : he shall not deter us from what
we know to be our duty — he shall not overcome that delibe
rate firmness which, after healing the calamities of Ireland,
and happily establishing both her commercial and constitu
tional liberty, had sufficient spirit, sufficient justice, to with
hold what it were ruin to relinquish, and what indeed was as
little expected or sought by Ireland, as it was safe or just for an
administration here to bestow. That letter, which was writ
ten by the noble lord in his official capacity, was of too much
consequence to be written under the sanction of any individual
department. Every one of his majesty's confidential servants
was privy to the measure ; nor was any dispatch ever made
up on a more decided and unanimous opinion. Let the right
honourable gentleman refer to some of his present colleagues
for information on the point. As to the "want of energy —
" the temporizing spirit — the half measures — and the expe-
" dients of getting over a session by a Post Office or an Ad-
" miralty Court;" — all these are insinuations which my noble
friend has completely refuted. Neither the Post Office nor the
Admiralty Court were conceded as expedients to get over a
session ; they were neither given nor accepted as boons ; they
were the natural consequences of the previous change of system;
they flowed naturally from the new situation in which Ireland
stood by the independence of her legislature. What occasion
had we for expedients to get over a session ? Thelord lieutenant
of that day enjoyed as high a degree of confidence, and de
served it as well as any nobleman that ever filled the station.
We were guilty of no violences, and there existed no cla
mour. I cannot help stopping here for a moment, to make a re
mark on a curious distinction to which the right honourable
gentleman appears most remarkably attached; a distinction
which betrays a feeling that I cannot well describe — a sort
of self-complacency — a kind of over-pleasure with his own
situation. In speaking of the noble lord in the blue ribband
at different periods, he is ever solicitous of distinguishing be
tween the first lord of the treasury and the mere secretary of
state. In the one character he ascribes to him all the dignity
of sovereign rank, of superintendency, and of sole authority —
in the other, he considers him as rather acting under or with a
ministry, than as a minister possessed of either power or re
sponsibility. He says of him at one time, " When the noble
lord was the minister of the country;" at another, « When the

1 785*!! IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS, 83
noble lord held a subordinate situation in the cabinet," By these
distinctions, the right honourable gentleman takes a juvenile
pleasure in glancing at his own elevation, He considers the
personage who fills the united offices of chancellor of the ex
chequer and first lord of the treasury, as a character so lofty
and exalted, so supereminent in his station, that he must on
no account be confounded with inferior persons. In like man
ner, when he talks of coalitions, and reprobates them, he is
moved by the same feeling, His charge against me and others
js for coalescing with the minister, the great superintending
minister of the American war ! His own coalitions he can
readily defend by the very same distinction. " 1 own," he
says, " I have certainly coalesced with some of the ministers
who were concerned in the patronage and conduct of the
American wars they, however, were inferior characters ; lords
chancellors of England, and such like persons, of no account ?
but never have I been so infamous and abandoned, as to form
a coalition with the chancellor of the exchequer and the first
lord of the treasury, the great superintending minister of the
crown, who was the soul of the system." I do not, Sir, enlarge
upon this feeling of the right honourable gentleman, as a
charge against him : it is a feeling, in the enjoyment of which
I am by no means inclined to disturb him ; a feeling, in the
enjoyment of which, I know of no persop that has any interest
to disturb him ; unless, indeed, there may be some of his im
mediate colleagues, who may think it would be somewhat more
decent in him to gratify his passion or his pride in a mode less
publicly offensive both to thejr spirit and their dignity.
But to return, Sir, to the propositions on the table, I must
now renew the observation that I made in the outset of this
business ; namely, that there was a gross and fundamental er
ror in originating these propositions in the Irish parliament,
Independent of the insult to the parliament of this country,
in not submitting, for their consideration, a great and exten
sive innovation in the whole system of our commerce, till after
it had been determined upon in Ireland — .surely the expe
rience of this day sufficiently demonstrates the impolicy of so
strange a measure, For is it not evident, that after the par?
liament and people of Ireland have been suffered to cherish
the belief, that the resolutions which the ministers of that king
dom assured them would be religiously adhered to as the basis
of the new system, the ministers of England come forward,
and change the spirit, principle, and tendency of these reso^.
lutions ? Is it to be imagined, that, after the solemn pledge
which the people of Ireland have received from their ministers,
and which undoubtedly was held out to their parliament as a.
£ %

84 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
sufficient ground for an immediate extension of their revenue
— is it to be imagined, I say, that, by any private tampering
with the individual leaders of a party, the whole body of that
nation will as rapidly acquiesce in the supplemental resolu
tions now brought forward as they at first did in the original
propositions ; and when, too, the latter are directly framed to
weaken and diminish the effect of the former, which those who
proposed them in Ireland, had peremptorily insisted should
never undergo the slightest or most minute infringement?
Nothing can be more absurd than the state of this proceed
ing. First, the original propositions were made in Ireland —
now, the amendments are made in England. The Irish thus
exposed what alone would content them, and they were of
fered it without knowing whether it was what England would
grant. Now, England is called upon to say what she will give,
without knowing whether it is what Ireland would take. Thus,
a double inconveniency and dilemma arises from the strange
and incoherent proceeding. Nor is this the only impolicy in
the mode of conducting this extraordinary measure.
His majesty's ministers have erected a board of trade under
the name of a committee of the privy council, which certainly,
with proper regulations, I should consider as a wise and
wholesome institution ; but this board was appointed not to
prepare materials for the system with Ireland ; not to supply
government with information upon which they might delibe
rately proceed to the adjustment of the intercourse between
the two kingdoms. On the contrary, this board was ap
pointed to inquire rather into the propriety of what mini
sters were actually doing, than what they ought to do. For,
at the precise time when Mr. Secretary Orde first agitated the
business in the Irish House of, Commons, this committee of
the privy council were employed in the examination of evi
dence, and the discussion of points on which the merits of the
proposed arrangement were ultimately to be estimated. Never,
surely, was a board of privy council so perverted, so degraded
as this ! Not appointed to investigate and examine all the ne
cessary evidence as a preliminary to an important measure —
not constituted to deliberate on the various effects of a great
national change, the outline of which was merely in idea, un
settled, and unadopted by the minister ; but, in truth, to pro
vide a posthumous defence for a plan already fixed, and to fa
bricate a vindication for mischiefs too far advanced to admit
of qualification or amendment. With such views, and for
such purposes, was this board of privy council at first con
vened. A right honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson) whose
feelings on being studiously excluded from all the ministerial
departments of state, it was found not wholly inexpedient to

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 8$

j:

console and soothe, by some temporary delegation of insigni
ficant eminence, was prudently appointed to the presidency of
this mock committee. No higher mark of confidence was then
bestowed on the now- avowed associate of thegreatsuperintendant
minister. On the report, however, of such a board thus con
stituted and thus directed, did the chancellor of the exchequer
call upon this House to depend with unreserved confidence for
the complete justification of his plan. In other words, we
were to trust the most important rights of British commerce
to the opinion of a board of the king^s privy counsellors, ap
pointed by the king's ministers themselves, to inquire whether
the measure that they had adopted was wise or the contrary.
Can the committee imagine any thing more frivolous, more
absurd, than so partial an appeal ? Do we not all know, that
when his majesty's ministers are committed on any one point,
the servants whom they employ must be careful not to deliver
an opinion hostile to that measure? The board of council are
selected by the minister, not as deliberate judges of his con
duct ; it were the extreme of folly to consider them in such
alight; on the contrary, it was their object to afford every
possible support to measures which they were called upon di
rectly to countenance. This always was, and ever must be,
the case; and so the committee of privy council in the pre
sent instance seem entirely to have considered it. At first,
indeed, before the minister had thought it safe to commu
nicate his plan to the right honourable president of this board*
some opinions, far from favourable to the plan, did appear
upon their minutes, and of course are still to be discovered in
their report ; but this was a transient gloom : from the mo
ment that the present complete intelligence and intimacy was
established between the right honourable president and the
ministers, a new light seemed to flash at once on the whole
board of council ; the happiest means were instantly pursued
to effect the concealment of ministerial error; the most deci
sive mode of examining witnesses was systematically observed :
not only the most apt and artful questions were propounded,
but with equal skill the most fortunate answers were generally
provided ; all, however, was carried on with much plausibility
and stateliness of deportment. " It was an open court, it was
accessible to witnesses of all descriptions, and accordingly"
(as was repeatedly asserted), " gentlemen attended them of
their own accord, and voluntarily offered their impartial testi
mony, on the various articles of their respective manufactures."
But how has this description been verified ? We have it in
proof, that every individual witness who attended that board
was expressly sent for — and that questions were put of an
abstract nature, and on premises unexplained. We have
g 2

§fj Irish commercial Propositions. [May 12*
foUnd, too, that the answers so obtained Were reserved, to be
brought in contradiction to opinions which, when the premises
were fully examined, and the consequences weighed, it was
Obvious could not fail to be stated in testimony at the bar of
the House of Commons. The right honourable gentleman,
who is at the head of this board (Mr. Jenkinson) has thought
proper, however, to inform us, that the manufacturers were
voluntary attendants on the committee. But to this more
than one gentleman of eminence and respect has directly an
swered, that in truth the witnesses Were expressly sent for j
Mr. Rose of the treasury having repeatedly entreated them to
attend the committee. " Ay," says the right hon. gentleman,
" but we have nothing to do with Mr. Rose, nor with the
" treasury, we did not send for you."
It is said in praise of simplicity of action, that " the right
hand knoweth not what the left hand doeth." Perhaps this
may be the case here; but which, Sir, is the right hand,
and which the left, of the present administration, it is not so
easy to ascertain. Certainly, the chancellor of the exchequer
has, till of late, been fond of disclaiming all connection with
certain obnoxious characters. He has generally, in high tone,
and pompous parade, disavowed and reprobated all intimacy,
all friendship, all connection, with the right honourable gen^
tleman who has long been suspected of promoting an undue
influence in the government of this country. But all this
Was the language of a period when the momentary popularity
Which the minister had obtained had placed him above the
degradation of so obnoxious a connections When the con
duct of the popular branch of the constitution was bestowed
Upon the present minister, under the description and charac
ter of a popular statesman, it would indeed have been mad
ness in the extreme to have held any other language of one,
whose habits, whose principles, whose avowed prejudices,
marked him out as utterly disqualified for a situation, which,
even in common prudence, ought never to be subject to the
direct control, or to the disguised influence, of prerogative.
When the scene, however, began to change, when the Irish
resolutions excited alarm, and the minds of men were irri-i
tated at so lavish a surrender of every thing that was dear;
when the right honourable gentleman began to feel himself
Weak and insecure* his language was less inflated, his proud
rejection of obnoxious characters was heard no more :
" Telephus et Peleus, cum pauper et exiil uterque,
" Projicit ampullas et sesquipedalia verba*
'_' Misery makes us acquainted with strange companions.^
For my own part, Sir, though I have always considered

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 87
the right honourable gentleman alluded to, as an objection
able character for mixing in the conduct of the British go
vernment, yet I must do him the justice to say, that in this
singular instance, his cautious temper, his patient laborious
habits, have undoubtedly been well employed in correcting
the strange incoherent levities of the original propositions.
And, therefore, it would be wholly unfair to withhold the
merit of some of the alterations of this day from the instruc
tion and advice so generously administered by the right ho
nourable gentleman (Mr.Jenkinson) in the hour of danger
and necessity.
But to return, Sir, to the committee of privy council. I
Cannot suppress my indignation at the petty, miserable plan,
which I am sorry to find they have pursued, of first entrap
ping witnesses, by inducing them to give hasty answers to
questions unexplained, and afterwards endeavouring to detect
contradictions in their evidence, when they came at the dis
tance of six weeks, to speak at the bar of this committee.
Upon such conduct, very ill becoming a board of privy coun
cil, I cannot but observe, that undoubtedly it would have
been far more graceful for the right honourable gentleman
to have lent his utmost aid to the manufacturers of this coun
try, when they were forced to the bar of this committee in
support of their dearest privileges : surely, upon such an oc
casion he ought himself to have manfully declared, " I re
joice to see you here: eager as I am for the discovery of
truth, I am happy that you are come to explain all those
points in which you have either been mistated or misre
presented by the committee of council. You have now an
opportunity to correct those errors ; improve it with all the
sincerity and zeal that are the best characteristics of English
men." Such, Sir, ought to have been his language ; for surely
it is by no means discreditable for a man of the strictest honour
to explain his opinions, when more mature reflection and
greater light on the subject have convinced him that he was
wrong. And yet, in pursuing a line of conduct diametri
cally opposite to that which I have described; in adopting
the poor and miserable expedient which the minister preferred
to the plain feeling of justice and honour, I pledge myself to
prove, that, with all their sinister industry to confuse and to
prevent, they have completely and utterly failed ; for not a
single instance have they been able to offer, of glaring and
material contradiction in any one of the numerous wit
nesses who have been the constant objects of their illiberal
attacks. I have said, Sir, that so far as I have been able to com
prehend the alterations, by hearing them once read over, I

88 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
am ready to acknowledge, they are infinitely more palatable
than at first ; but I desire to be understood, that I still insist,
they^re by no means what they ought to be. Much of my
objection remains ; and I have no doubt, but when gentlemen
come to discuss the amended resolutions, they will yet exhibit
weighty arguments against their acceptance, as the basis of
the future intercourse between the two countries.
The right honourable gentleman has now removed the
objection which originally existed against the first resolu
tions ; namely, that we thereby sacrificed the monopoly of
the Asiatic trade. How the right honourable gentleman
could originally overlook that most important concern, un
less he meant to abolish the monopoly, is a point for which
I am utterly at a loss how to account. Surely the peculiar
services which the company have rendered to his administra
tion, might well have claimed a more serious attention to
their particular interests than the right honourable gentle
man seems to have paid them at the present important crisis :
but roused to the performance of his duty, by the zeal of
gentlemen on this side of the House, he has at length, in
deed, made some provision for the security of the East India
trade. Certainly I do not grudge to the people of Ireland
the benefits which he has allotted to them in this branch
of commerce : it is by no means improper that they should
have a share of the outfit of the East India ships, as they
consent to a part of the return. Excluded from the com
merce of Asia, it seems but barely equitable to permit them
to supply some proportion of the export trade. On the
contrary, if at any time, either the necessities or the mere will
of the East India Company, should resort to Ireland for such
supplies, in preference to the established trade with their own
native dealers, I am sure there is no Englishman of sense
or spirit who would debar Ireland from every fair participa
tion of those benefits which may be safely and justly divided.
The right honourable gentleman has made use of the most
unfortunate argument that I ever heard delivered by the most
unfortunate speaker in this or in any assembly. He says,
that giving to Ireland the English market for the issue of colo
nial produce, though it will not enable the Irish to enter into
any dangerous competition with us at home, will yet be of great
avail to them, for they will thereby be more capable of taking
advantage of the foreign market. This he explains by saying,
that having the issue of the English market to depend upon
in the last resort, they will have a greater spur to adventure ;
they will import more of the produce of the colonies; and,
trusting to the power which they will now have of coming
in the end to England with their commodities, they will
J3

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 89
strive to increase their foreign trade, and necessarily make
their country a sort of commercial depot. If this argument
is true of the colonial produce, it is equally true of their own
manufactures. If they have the advantage of having the Eng
lish market as an issue to enable them to push their foreign
trade to a considerable increase in the colonial produce ; then,
with precisely the same ground, may we contend, that, having
the issue of the English market, they will be able to advance
their foreign trade for their manufactures.
Here, then, is an end to all the invective which was thrown
on the manufacturers for having asserted, that those resolu
tions would affect the manufactures of Great Britain in the
foreign market : they were told with petulance, that they did
not understand the matter ; and that if there was any danger
of meeting a powerful competitor in the Irish manufactures at
the foreign market, that danger existed before ; that the fo
reign market had always been open to the Irish manufacturer
— true, and of this they were not ignorant : but Ireland had
not till now the sure issue of the English market as a collateral
security for enterprize, and as a spur to speculation. I thank
the right honourable gentleman for this argument ; but I must
apprize him, that it refers more to manufactures than to co
lonial produce. Does he not know, that in colonial produce,
the home market is every thing, and the foreign market no
thing ? In manufactures, it is the reverse, or nearly so. There
was good ground, therefore, for the manufacturers to state,
that they should now find a dangerous competitor in Ireland
at the foreign market.
With respect, Sir, to the navigation act, upon which I
have said so much in the course of this discussion, do we not
now find that all my apprehensions were well founded ? The
right honourable gentleman has at length acknowledged, that
the navigation act was in danger, notwithstanding his repeated
declarations to the contrary. This conviction may be collected
from the nature of the remedy he has thought it expedient to
adopt. Strong must have been the apprehensions which sug
gested such a relief; it is a relief which, in the peculiar cir
cumstances of the two kingdoms, will require very particular
consideration indeed, as its tendency is no less than this —
that notwithstanding the independence of Ireland, she must
still, in commercial laws and. external legislation, be governed
by Britain. That she shall agree to follow whatever regula
tions we may think it right to pursue from time to time for
securing privileges to our shipping, or for restraining the
trade with our colonies, and that such laws shall be in full
force in Ireland, is a remedy certainly of a very hazardous
kind ; but, Sir, though it goes so far, it does not satisfy me ;

90 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 1 1*
it Is dangerous indeed, but not efficacious ; nor do I think
that, strong and bitter as it is, it will be attended with the
effects of preventing the various and radical evils which are
attached to this pernicious system. I am of opinion, that even
if Ireland should agree to this provision, we shall deliver up
into the custody of another, and that an independent nation,
all our fundamental laws for the regulation of our trade, and
we must depend totally on her bounty and liberal spirit for the
guardianship and protection of our dearest interests.
Now, Sir, although I feel as strong a disposition of par
tiality and favour towards the Irish nation as any man in this
House ; although I believe them to be a people as distin
guished for liberality as any people upon earth, yet this is
not of all others the particular point in which I would
chuse to trust to their liberality. I think the guardianship of
the laws which I have mentioned can be deposited in no
hands so properly as in our own. It would be the interest
of Ireland to evade those laws, and I" ask you what security
there is for the due performance of a commercial contract,
when it is the interest of a nation to evade it ? He who trusts
to the vague and rash notions of abstract right in preference to
the constant and uniform testimony of experience, will find
himself miserably deceived in his calculations on all subjects
of commercial or political discussion. When it is the interest
of a nation to evade a law, that law will be evaded : it always
Was so, and it always will be so. Perhaps there is no instance
of a country more tenacious of engagements than our own ;
but, do we not all know, that finding the illicit trade which
was some time ago carried on to the Spanish main, highly be
neficial to the" country, that that trade was connived at,
though in the very teeth of our national engagements. Now,
Sir, when it shall be felt that Ireland will be materially be
nefited by evading our laws, and that the introduction of fo
reign sugars will be so much more valuable to them than the
legal importation of our colonial produce, is it to be imagined
that the people of Ireland will, out of mere- love and libera
lity, shut their eyes against their own immediate interest, or
that the laws which may be made in conformity with this new
system will be enforced with vigour and with efficacy ? In
terest is the leading impulse with nations, and it supposes
nothing unfavourable to the Irish, to suppose that the com
mon feelings which actuate all mankind in their public cha
racter as states, may prevail also with them. When it shall be
found that foreign sugar may be introduced fifteen or twenty
per cent, cheaper than our own ; and when it shall be found
that they can be introduced in American bottoms cheaper
than in shipping navigated according to the law of Great

1785.] 1RTSH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 91
Britain, it is idle to suppose that they will not be so intro
duced, that this sinister advantage will not be so obtained ;
that is, in other words, that the commerce of England will •
not be so affected and diminished.
Mr. Orde, on opening his system to the Irish parliament,
if we may trust to the reports of the newspapers — and that we
may do so, is evident from this circumstance, that though
Mr. Orde was in London several days, he never came down
to the House to contradict the reports, though argument was
daily founded upon them -^-stated that Cork would become the
emporium of the empire. This expression, to be sure, he
afterwards changed to a term more prosaic and modest, affirm
ing that his original phrase had been that Cork would become
the medium of trade to the empire. The difference is immate
rial, except in the sound of the word ; for by medium I can
understand nothing else, than that the produce of the western
world will, in the first instance, be imported into Ireland, be
deposited there as the magazine of the empire, and be subse-
quently dealt out to Britain as her wants may make such ap
plication necessary. We have a less sounding and less intel
ligible phrase, but the real meaning remains still the same^
and the measure of oppression and injury unchanged or un-*
abated. That Ireland will be this medium, I have no doubt i
and its being so will produce an evil beyond the mere loss of
the direct trade to our colonies ; for there is every reason to
believe, that by this means the produce of the French and
other foreign colonies will find their way into the country, to
the ruin of our West India planters and merchants. But,
says the right honourable gentleman, it is not to be believed,
that a circuitous voyage, as this will be, can be preferred to a
communication with our colonies; and in a whisper across the
house he says, that Britain even now supplies the Irish mar
ket with colonial produce. This, Sir, in my opinion,
strengthens my argument ; such is the decided benefit re-
Suiting from having two markets instead of one, that now we
are able* with all the disadvantage of the circuitous Voyage,
to supply Ireland. What, then, must be the consequence to
Ireland when she shall enjoy the double market, added to all
the advantages arising from harbours so admirably accom
modated by the hand of nature for the intercourse in ques
tion ; from cheap labour, and from an almost total exemption
from national burdens ? She will indeed become the empo*
rium, or if the right honourable gentleman, out of compli
ment to his friends in England, likes it better, the medium of
trade to the general empire, and indeed almost exclusively so
with respect to the produce of our colohies(
The right honourable gentleman hds been anxious to set

92 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May T2»
up an argument in favour of this country, that great capital
would in all cases overbalance cheapness of labour. I know
this to be the fashionable position of the present times, and of
the present government : but general positions of all kinds
ought to be very cautiously admitted ; indeed, on subjects so
infinitely complex and mutable as politics and commerce, a
wise man hesitates at giving too implicit a credit to any gene
ral maxim of any denomination ; and with this conviction in
my mind, I am prepared to controvert the position of the
right honourable gentleman, at the same time that I do not
desire to be understood as wishing to establish the contrary.
I do not think that great capital will always overbalance
cheapness of labour, nor that cheap labour will always over
balance great capital ; as general theorems I dispute both, at
the same time that I am clearly of opinion, that under cer
tain circumstances both may be true ; we have known several
instances in which the cheapness of labour has triumphed
over greatness of capital. In the rapid transitions of fortune
in this country, do we not daily perceive the triumphs of in
dustry over wealth ? Have we not abundant precedents 'to
shew, that our manufactures have changed their positions m
this country merely on account of the cheapness of labour and
provision ? Have they not within these thirty years travelled
into Scotland, and is it not likely that precisely for the same
reason, together with other incitements, they will migrate to
Ireland? But, says the right honourable gentleman, the dif
ference is not so great as is imagined in the price of labour ;
it is only rude labour which is cheap in Ireland, and the finer
parts of work are much dearer there than in England. In
proof of this assertion he brings Captain Brook to the bar of
the House of Commons, a gentleman who has established a
very considerable manufactory of cottons in Ireland. Whe
ther it is perfectly proper to bring gentlemen from Ireland, to
give evidence before the House of* Commons, on a subject
that is to benefit Ireland and not England, I will not take up
much time to inquire.
The Irish are beyond all question greatly interested in the
conclusion of this bargain, and exclusively so as to hopes of
benefit; their evidence, .therefore, as parties influenced and
prejudiced, may perhaps be deemed improper when brought
forward to support the system, and to persuade this House.
I know it may be said, that Messrs. Richardson, Walker,
Peel, and others, who have given evidence on the other side,
are also interested in the termination of this compact. I ad
mit the fact ; but on which side does their interest lie ? and
to which ought we in this House to incline ? They are in
terested for England, of which we are the delegated guar-

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 93
dians— Mr. Brook is interested for Ireland, who is on the
other side riegociating for himself. Taking it, therefore, in
that point of view, I cannot hesitate a moment as to the path
which it becomes me, as a British member of parliament, to
pursue, in the credit which I am to bestow on the evidence
adduced. But in this point of the cheapness of rude labour,
hear what the intelligent Mr. Peel says: — " The finer parts
of work cannot be carried on without the ruder. It is on the
rude work that the hand is qualified in its art, and every
man who is employed in the finer branch, was first employed
in the coarser." The cheapness of rude labour is, therefore,
an advantage which in manufactures of the finer kind must be
highly favourable; but in those which are in their quality
coarse, must give to the country a decisive superiority. In
one instance this has been proved. A manufacturer of Nor
wich gives it in evidence, that he can buy in Norwich, Irish
worsted yarn cheaper than he can buy English, although it
is subject to five or six duties before it reaches him, and sub
ject also to the expence of the voyage and of the carriage, as
well as of the internal duties in Ireland ; so that upon a fair
and just calculation, it is demonstrable, that they can manu
facture worsted yarn in Ireland 45 or 50 per cent, cheaper
than in England. But, say the witnesses from Ireland,, it is
by no means likely that Ireland will ever establish a cotton
manufactory to rival that of Manchester: it would not be
her interest to do so, and there are many. stubborn inconve-
niencies which she has to surmount. I will admit the sup
position for the sake of argument, though I by no means
think it founded in probability. But admitting even that she
shall not think of establishing a cotton manufactory, she may
still by these new resolutions effectually cut off the Irish mar
ket from ours; for having a manufacture of her own to sub
stitute in the room of this, she may lay a duty on cottons,
which by the principle of countervailing duties might amount
to a prohibition of ours, and, by a side blow, annihilate the
Manchester manufacture in the Irish market at once.
And this leads me to an argument which has been much
insisted on in favour of these resolutions — that by the means
of the new system, the right honourable gentleman would
have the merit of putting an end to all idea of protecting du
ties. T)n what rational ground does he claim to himself this
merit ? By the power which is thus left to each country, to
lay internal duties on such manufactures as they may covet to
crush for the sake of advancing a substitute, he gives rise to a
1 countervailing duty that will act as a complete, though indi
rect, prohibition ; and that this is in favour of Ireland and ini
mical to England, is evident from this circumstance, that by

94 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12,
the fatal ninth resolution we have for ever given up the only
remaining hold which could have operated as a protection
against so obvious and alarming an inconvenience. Protect
ing duties, however threatened, would never have been im-
fiosed under the old intercourse ; for the good sense of Ire-
and would not have suffered the danger of retaliation on their
staple commodity : that danger they will now no longer be
exposed to. But, the right honourable gentleman says, that
we shall by this means bind the two nations together in indis
soluble bands ; that between nation and nation the intercourse
should be regulated by principles of equality and justice ; and
that this ought to be more particularly studied between na
tions that are sisters, as it were,- and are so connected in in
terest and in blood as Great Britain and Ireland. To such
principles as these, if acted upon with wisdom or the chance
of mutual harmony, far be it from me to object ! My ob
jection is, that the intercourse is not to be regulated by prin-r
ciples of equality and justice. Let us suppose a fair and equal
admission of manufactures into each country free of all du
ties — which of the kingdoms would shudder most at such a
freedom ? The Irish undoubtedly. We are to give them
an intercourse infinitely more beneficial than throwing open
our ports entirely ; and in doing this, we have given to Ire
land the power of offending us without reserving the means
even of retaliation, much less of prevention.
By the seventh resolution we bind ourselves in no future
time to prohibit the export of raw materials to Ireland. This
is a measure which may be found highly prejudicial to our
manufactures. In the course of this session we have passed an
act to prevent the export of rabbit skins, for the benefit of
our hat manufactory. May not other occasions arise, in
which it would highly affect us to suffer raw materials to go
out of our hands into those of foreign states, under the name
of Ireland ; for such is the danger that I apprehend, A cargo
of raw materials may be entered at our custom house for Ire
land ; but what security shall we have, either for their being
carried thither, or for their stay in the country if they reach
it ? Never let us be so weak as to trust to generosity, when
interest is at stake.
The ninth resolution, Sir, is that which I reprobate the
most, and in that no alteration is made. By that resolution
we for ever surrender the only power which we had of en
forcing the due performance of all the parts of the bargain
obligatory on Ireland, By giving up all legislative control
over the admission of her staple into Britain, we for ever throw
ourselves on the mercy of Ireland, and have no means of pro
tecting ourselves against her future caprices, It is by such

I785-] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 95
means that the right honourable gentleman hopes to produce
a lasting amity between the two kingdoms. He provides ill
for peace, who deprives himself of the weapons of war. True
policy suggests, that with a disposition to be ahiicable our
selves, we should be prepared against the effects of a contrary
disposition in others. '
In regard to the compensation, I hardly know in what view
of it to express my particular reprobation. The exaction of
a permanent provision from Ireland is what I consider as a
measure pregnant with the most alarming consequence to the
liberties and to the constitution of both countries. As an
Irishman, I would never consent to grant it ; and as an Eng
lishman, I cannot accept it. What Ireland cannot concede
with safety, England cannot receive with grace. It has
always been the leading and characteristic privilege of our le
gislature — and when I speak of ours in this instance, I may
include the legislature of Ireland also — to limit all grants of
supplies to the period of one year. Thus the supplies for the
army are voted annually, for the navy annually, for the
ordnance annually, and so also in every description of public
expenditure that may any way tend to produce an undue con
trol over the subject : to make them perpetual, even though
the application of them is to be left to the disposal of parlia
ment, is a measure to which I cannot give my consent : it
establishes a precedent for diminishing the sole security which
the domestic branch of the constitution possesses against the
encroachments of the executive. Annual supplies are the
vital source of the influence and authority which the repre
sentative body have, and ought to have, in the respective le
gislature of the two countries, and I can accede to no regula
tion that has the operation of impairing so invaluable a privi
lege in the smallest degree. I object to this compensation on
another account ; and that is, that I do not think it worth our
acceptance; for even if the surplus of the hereditary revenue
should amount to a sum, which might be valuable when ap
plied to the maintenance of our navy, what security have we
that the Irish nation may not withdraw the sum which they
now appropriate to the army ? They now maintain a very
considerable part of our army. I wish to know if it will not
be in their power to withhold that sum whenever they shall
deem it expedient, after the establishment of this new system:
therefore what we gain in the one way, we may lose in the
other. We may lose from our army what we are to gain in
our navy, with this material difference still existing between
the two cases, that the supply which is now granted on the
part of Ireland for the support of our army, is granted in a
manner truly and perfectly congenial with the practice and

96 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
spirit of our own constitution ; whereas the proposed expe
dient of the service of our navy originates in a violation of
both, and cannot operate but to the obvious disadvantage of
the popular department of the Irish government. The right
honourable gentleman says, the surplus of the hereditary re
venue would be appropriated to the purchase of provisions for
the navy, and that thus it would be beneficial to Ireland.
To this I have no objection ; I think it would be reasonable
and advantageous. But to the permanency of the grant, I
must enter my most cordial and determined protest. The
right honourable gentleman says, that there he would not trust
to the generosity of Ireland for a compensation, which he
considers as founded in justice. He will implicitly trust to
her generosity and kindness for the due and vigorous execu
tion of the trade laws, but he will not trust to her generosity
for the return which she shall make for his present benevo
lence towards her. In this I completely differ with the right
honourable gentleman. I would trust to Ireland in the case
where he would not, and I would not trust where he is in
clined to do so. If there be any nation upon earth, in whom,
on a point of honourable compensation, I would have im
plicit confidence, it is Ireland : but in the due performance
of commercial regulations, where the laws stand for ever in
the way of interest and adventure, I would not trust to any
people existing. In the case of the compensation, the voice
of all Ireland would be heard in her parliament. In the in
stance of sinister trade, it would be confined to the intrigues
between smugglers and custom-house officers ; and neither the
generosity nor the manliness of the more enlightened and
polished part of the nation would be at all concerned in the
discussion. The right honourable gentleman has insinuated, that there
is an immediate necessity for adopting the system, which he
has proposed; that is as much as to say in plain English, he
has held out the resolutions to Ireland, and the necessity for •
adopting them has arisen from his having done so. This is a
mode of argument which merits a great share of countenance,
whatever truth there may be in the fact. Ireland is not how
ever, I trust, so unreasonable as to insist upon the rash and in
temperate transfer of privileges, demonstrably ruinous to
England. " But," says the right honourable gentleman, " this
system will finally determine every question between the two
nations, and nothing can arise in future to make a contest be
tween them." I call upon the right honourable gentleman to
say, what security he can give us for the certain accomplish
ment of his presage. Does he speak from experience ? Evi
dently not. Experience of the fi>st, which I conceive to be

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 97
the best criterion by which to determine the probability of the
future, is against him. When the noble lord in the blue
ribbon, in the year 1780, opened to the Irish the trade of our
colonies, the parliament of that country declared themselves
fully gratified, and thanked his majesty in terms of the utmost
gratitude and apparent satisfaction. In a few months, how
ever, their voice was heard again. In the administration of
which I made a part, their legislature was declared to be inde
pendent ; and in addresses from both Houses of parliament, they
professed themselves so entirely content, as not to consider it
possible that any subsequent question of political division could
arise between the two kingdoms. Yet in the very next session
they gave indications of new dissatisfaction, and farther conces
sions were made. How are men to argUe from these facts ? One
would imagine, that the most effectual and satisfactory method
of quieting the apprehensions, or relieving the exigencies of a
distressed country, would be that of appealing to their own tes
timony for a knowledge of their circumstances ; to collect infor
mation from themselves; to desire them to state, in their own
persons, the measure of their calamities, and the best expedi
ents for the relief of them. This was precisely the way pur
sued heretofore. The concessions were granted on the decla
rations of the best informed men in the land — men the best
qualified to know the state, the wants, and the expectations of.
the kingdom. Mr. Hussey Burgh and Mr. Grattan, names
which no man could mention but with the sincerest and most
cordial respect, were the authorities on which England pro
ceeded, and on which she relied. But this, it seems, however
specious and natural, was not the proper method of ascertain
ing the wants or wishes of another kingdom. The true and
only means of finally concluding all disputes with Ireland, is
to send a stranger there, and order him to address himself to
their senate in such language as this : " Hear me, ye men of
ignorance and credulity ! You know nothing of what you
want, what you wish, or what would be good for you —
trust yourselves to me — I am perfect master of all your in
firmities — here is the specific that will cure you, the infalli
ble nostrum for all ailments.". It seems that this is the only
conciliatory expedient for administering to the relief of a dis
ordered state — not to suffer the inhabitants to speak, but to
send a man amongst them ignorant at once of their exigen
cies, their grievances, and their policy, to propose wild schemes
of extravagant speculation, and prescribe for the disorder,
without the painful tediousness of trying to understand it. In
compliance with this new idea, Mr. Orde, an English gen*
tleman, the secretary to an English nobleman, the lord lieu
tenant for the time, rises up and proposes a set of resolutions
which he pledges himself to carry into complete execution.
VOL. III. H

98 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
These resolutions are brought to England, and after two
months discussion are completely and fundamentally altered.
Upon these resolutions the right honourable gentleman thinks
himself warranted to say that the system will be final. The
right honourable gentleman said, that he must have a fund of
credulity who believed all the evidence which the manufacturers
had given at the bar. In like manner I say, that he must
have a fund of credulity indeed, who can believe on such
premises that the Irish will be content with this system, or
that the general interests of both countries can be promoted
by its establishment.
" It is possible," says the right honourable gentleman, " that
one country may lose what another may gain." I am ready
to agree with the right honourable gentleman, that in similar
manufactures, or even in the same manufacture, one country
might open channels of commerce unknown to another, the
one acquire riches without the other suffering diminution : but
it so happens, that between England and Ireland, under these
resolutions, this cannot be the case. Their channels of con
sumption are precisely the same, and a mutual participation
in all markets is the leading principle of the agreement. Ire
land, therefore, cannot make a single acquisition but to the
proportionate loss of England. I defy the right honourable
gentleman to mention any one article — and he has not men
tioned one — in which Ireland may gain without England suf
fering a loss. This, Sir, constitutes the distinct and promi
nent evidence of the impolicy of the system. It is this which
will stir up jealousy between the two countries, and make
Englishmen and Irishmen look at one another with cold hearts
and suspicious eyes. If any one thing demands more than
another the cautious deliberation of the committee, it is that
of guarding against insidious competition; to take care that
the new system shall not make the countries rivals instead of
friends. Another objection requires a more satisfactory answer than
it has yet obtained. We have gone great lengths for the sup
pression of smuggling, and have loaded our constitutents with
a commutation tax of a most heavy and unequal kind, merely
to crush the contraband trade on our coasts. Upon the very
heel of a most oppressive and unequitable expedient for the
prevention of smuggling, we are preparing to adopt a new
system, that will give to every species of this indirect and con
traband commerce ten times the vigour and the generality
that it ever possessed in the country. This is the right
honourable gentleman's consistency. In one year he loads
the subjects with the most intolerable imposition to which
they were ever exposed; and the single motive, as well as
io

1785-] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 99
the only possible excuse for it is this — the prevention of
smuggling. The next year, he introduces a new measure,
the obvious and undeniable tendency of which is, to en
courage all illicit trade to an extent hitherto unknown in
any period of our history; for by means of this new inter
course, no laws, no watchfulness, no penalties will have power
enough to prevent the revival of every sort of contraband trade.
I shall mention only a single article or two, to shew the facility
which these new resolutions will give to the exercise of smug
gling. At present, so anxious are we to guard against the il
licit importation of French gloves, that we have had recourse
to a prevention of unexampled severity. Besides the penalty,
which is uncommonly high, the person in whose custody sus
pected gloves are found, is obliged to prove that they were
made in this country. The onus probaridi lies upon the per
son accused, an instance of severity unknown to the general
penal provision of our statutes. When this communication
with Ireland is opened, what will be the consequence ? The
person has only to say that they are Irish. It will be in vain that
you call upon him to prove that they are manufactured there —
and thus you will have articles of every kind poured in upon
you. Silk stockings is another article of the same kind.
Distinctions will be impracticable; and every species of light
goods,, of small package and easy transfer, will flow in upon
us, to the ruin of our manufactures.
I shall conclude, Sir, with supplicating the committee to
take time to deliberate, and to inquire fully before they decide
on this measure, which must make an entire revolution in the
whole system of British commerce. We have seen the bene
fits of delay. Let us be wise from experience. It is impos
sible that Ireland can object to our desiring a sober delibera
tion on a subject so infinitely important. It is said, that Ire
land is out of temper, and that she has been irritated almost
beyond her bearing. • Ministers are answerable for this irrita
tion, if such irritation exists. The violences which they com
mitted in Ireland deserve the most marked and general repro
bation. Their attacks on the liberty of the press ; their en
deavours to prevent the legal and quiet meetings of counties
to deliberate on the best peaceable means of amending their
deficient representation ; their proceeding against men by sum
mary attachment: all were violences which, perhaps, may
have inflamed Ireland, and now ministers are desirous of
avoiding the consequences of imprudent insult by imprudent
concession. But le$t us be cautious how we assist them in a
design which may eventually turn out as insidious to that
country as it would be ruinous to this; a design which may,
perhaps, involve in it another commutation, and that a more
h 2

100 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12.
pernicious one, even than that well-known and universally- ;
execrated measure which now bears that name> — a commuta
tion of English commerce for Irish slavery.
Let us remember, that all the manufacturing communities
of Great Britain are avowedly against the system. So general
an union never took place as on this occasion. So large a
number of petitions never were presented from the manufac
turers on any former occasion ; and what is still more remark
able, there is but one solitary instance of any manufacturing
body having expressed a syllable in its favour. The voice of
the whole country is, therefore, against the resolutions. It is
within the memory of all men, that sometime ago the right
honourable gentleman was an advocate for the voice of the
people — " What," said he, when a number of petitions were
presented against the India bill which I had the honour to
move, " will you persist in this bill against the voice of the
people ? Will you not hearken to the petitions upon your
table ?" It was ever my opinion, Sir, that petitions should
be heard, and most seriously attended to ; but it was not my
opinion, that they should always be implicitly complied with.
A distinction should be made between petitions, as temporary
circumstances, or the casualties under which they are pre
sented, shall suggest ; and .1 should certainly be at all times
more inclined to pay respect to them, when they applied to
subjects of which the petitioners could, from their habits or
otherwise, be considered as competent judges — much more so,
beyond all question, than when they spoke merely from v|gue
representations, and on topics with which they had no means
of being conversant. The right honourable gentleman is of a
contrary opinion. It is only when they come against the
India bill that he thinks them worthy of notice. When hun
dreds of thousands come to our bar, deprecating the counte
nance of a system, which, from their own knowledge, they pro
nounce to be ruinous to the manufactures of England, he
treats them with something that merits a severer term than
disdain. Mr. Wedgwood, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Walker, and
the other great manufacturers, and who, from opulence and
every other consideration, are worthy to be ranked with the
best men in this House, have received from the right honour
able gentleman every species of ill treatment and indignity
that the lower or most degraded characters could receive, or
the most contemptuous and violent could bestow. Their in
telligence on their respective manufactures ought to give weight
to their petitions as well as to their evidence, and to ensure
them, not only a decent hearing, but a most attentive regard.
The right honourable gentleman, however, considers the voice
of the people only as sacred and commanding where it is ex-

1785.] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. IOI
erted against things upon which the petitioners are not com
petent to decide. For instance ; if when these gentlemen —
who, I dare say, during the rage of opposition to the India
bill, also signed petitions against it — were at the bar, they had
been asked if they objected to that bill, and they had- answered
in the affirmative, would their testimony in the one case have
been deserving of the same notice as on the interests of their
particular manufactures ? Surely not. In the one case they
spoke from what they heard, or from what they conjectured;
in the other, from what they knew. Can the committee think
that they know more of the Manchester manufacture, than
Mr. Richardson and Mr. Walker ? — of the iron manufacture,
than the gentlemen that we have heard this day ? — and of
every other manufacture, than the persons who have spent
their fives in the study, and embarked their fortunes in the
progress ? If we do know better, let us in the name of heaven
discharge our consciences, and speak as we think, against those
manufacturers ; but at any rate let us deliberate, let us take
time to think before we act. Our decision will not be less ef
ficacious for being the result of inquiry ; nor is it possible that
any evil can arise from a delay which affords some intervalfor
decent discussion.
Before I sit down, Mr. Gilbert, it may not be amiss to sug
gest to gentlemen, that the present is a subject from which,
above all others, private partialities or personal attachments
ought to be totally excluded. This is not a question of per
sonal struggle between man and man, a contest for power, nor
the mere war of individual ambition. It is a question of life
and death fbr the country — not for the official existence of
this or that minister, but for the political existence of Great
Britain herself. In the consideration of such a question, there
fore, let gentlemen strip themselves at once of prejudices and
predilections — let them guard their minds equally against an
undue bias of every denomination, whether of political sym
pathy with the minister, or of attachment to opposition —
whether of individual respect for gentlemen on that side of the
House, or on this — let them recollect that the minister has, by
his conduct this day, demonstrated to the House, that implicit
confidence in him is as dangerous as it is absurd ; that infalli
bility is no more the prerogative of the right honourable gen
tleman than of the rest of the world. He has introduced six
teen new propositions, the general object of which is to correct
and to qualify his original system, and the particular aim of
some of which is to change the very essence* or vital nature
of his previous plan. Let us suppose, then, that this princi
ple of implicit confidence had prevailed in the minds of gen
tlemen, when this system was originally proposed to the House,
H 3

102 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 12
if they had acceded to the propositions, in the shape and for
mation in which they were at first presented — and that it was
for a long time the minister's intention to obtrude them upon
this House with all their original infirmities upon their head,
is well known to us and to the world — what would have fol
lowed ? Why, evidently this — that this confidence so reposed,
would have led gentlemen to do that, which in the opinion of
the minister himself would have been wrong. Let this exam
ple, therefore, of the demonstrated and acknowledged peril
which results from blind predilection and the total resignation of
personal judgment, warn gentlemen how they fall into the same
error a second time. The minister himself tells them this day,
that they would have been in the grossest and most pernicious
error in which the legislators of a great country were ever in
volved, if they had trusted entirely to him on a former occa
sion. I will take upon me to tell them that their error will
not be less gross, nor less pernicious, if they trust him too
implicitly on this.
I shall only add, Sir, that he who can understand so com
plicated and so extensive a subject upon so slight and transi
ent a view of it, possesses an intellect not common to the gene
ral body of mankind, and which certainly cannot be the ge
neral characteristic of this House. For one, I can truly say,
he must possess an understanding of infinitely more quickness
and acumen than any to which I pretend. He that votes for
the propositions without understanding them, is guilty of Such
a desertion of his duty and his patriotism as no subsequent
penitence can possibly atone for — he sacrifices th|£ commerce
of Great Britain at the shrine of private partiality, and sells
his country for the whistling of a name. The- minister who
exacts, and the member who submits to so disgraceful an obe
dience, are equally criminal. The man who, holding the first
seat in his majesty's council, can stoop to so disgraceful and
fallacious a canvas, as to rest his ministerial existence on the
decision of a great national question like this, must be wholly
lost to all sense of dignity, of character, or manly patriotism ;
and he who acquiesces in it from any other inducement but
that of cautious and sincere conviction, surrenders every claim
to the rank and estimation of an honest and independent
member of parliament, and sinks into the meanness and de
gradation of a mere ministerial instrument, unworthy the
situation of a senator, and disgraceful to the name of an
Englishman. After a debate which lasted till five o'clock in the morning, the
committee divided on the question of adjournment moved by
Lord North : Yeas 155 : Noes 281. The first resolution was then
agreed to.

1 7850 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. IOj

May 19.
The House having resolved itself into a committee to take into
further consideration the Irish propositions, Mr. Pitt moved the
third resolution: viz. " That towards carrying into full effect. so
desirable a settlement, it is fit and proper that all articles, not the
growth or manufacture of Great Britain or Ireland, should be im
ported into each kingdom from the other reciprocally, under the
same regulations, and at the same duties, if subject to duties, to
which they are liable when imported directly from the place of
their growth, product, or manufacture ; and that all duties origi
nally paid on importation into either country respectively, except
on arrack and foreign brandy, and on rum, and all sorts of strong
waters, not imported from the British colonies in the West Indies
or America, shall be fully drawn back on exportation to the other."
The resolution was strongly opposed by Lord North, Mr. Burke,
and Mr. Pelham ; and supported by Mr. W. Grenville, Mr. Pitt,
Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. Dundas. Mr. Sheridan observed, that as
several fresh petitions had come in, and gentlemen not sufficiently
acquainted with the subject would wish for more time, he would
move, that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
— When the question was going to be put,
Mr. Fox said, that after having expressed his sentiments on
the propositions so fully on a former day, and after hearing
his noble friend (Lord North) discuss them so ably that night,
he should not have troubled the committee again, if some
observations had not fallen, in the course of the debate, from
gentlemen on the other side of the House, directed so per
sonally to himself, that not to take sonie notice of them would
be pleading guilty to the charge. It was not without some
astonishment that he heard the propositions defended on the
score of their popularity, and that astonishment was increased
when he reflected on the quarter from whence that defence
came. The honourable gentleman,' who was representative
for the county of York, and who could not be unacquainted
with the sentiments of his constituents on the present measure,
as they instructed him to vote against it, had expressed the
disapprobation of his numerous and respectable constituents
in the same breath that he asserted the popularity of the mea
sure. That circumstance alone should have instructed him
better, if he was not to be informed by the petitions which
crowded the table, containing the signature of some hundred
thousands. There was a time when the opinions of the people
were apparently collected from a less numerous and less vo
luminous body of evidence. There was a time when collected
opinions were opposed to measures : and when those opinions
were considered decisive on a question to which the epithet of
H 4

104 tRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [Mayi£.
rash was this day added, while the more lenient, and agree
able epithets of courageous and bold were applied to the sub
ject now under consideration. But without taking to himself
the credit of much sagacity, he could not be supposed totally
ignorant of the danger to which he exposed himself in pro
posing his system for the government of India. Yet, unpo
pular as that bill was, and much as it was decried, he was
ready at all times to defend himself on it ; and the experience
Of another system, which was more successful, gave him no
reason to change his opinion. He gave gentlemen credit for
the dexterity with which they contrived to introduce this bill,
and blend it with every other subject : he was also prepared
to hear the American war adverted to, however foreign to the
subject. But among the many advantages of youth, it was
no inconsiderable one, that in affairs of which they knew
little but by report, in transactions in which they never bore
any part, young gentlemen, after taking their seats in parlia
ment, were at liberty to choose whatever side should then be
most popular, in a question that had been long before dis
posed of. To hear such persons talk, who would not sup
pose that they partook in the toil of resisting those measures
in their progress ? Who could hear the declamation of the
honourable gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) but must be of opi
nion, that to him belonged the merit of concluding the Ame
rican war ? But these were auxiliaries which the gentlemen
on the other side never failed to call in to supply the absence
of reason and of argument. An honourable gentleman (Mr.
W. Grenville) in a speech of considerable length, replete with
invective and declamation, had used no other arguments ex
cept what had been before urged by the right honourable
mover of the propositions : nor had he replied to any argu
ment against them, but what consisted in misrepresentation ;
and indeed, for the best of reasons, because the arguments
used in opposition to them were perfectly unanswerable. In
the present arrangement, wherever there was advantage, it
lay on the side of Ireland ; but to this country every provi
sion was adverse. It was curious reasoning to account for
the clause by which Irish linens, which was their staple com
modity, should continue to be imported, duty free, into Eng
land, by saying that the same exemption from duty shall be
there extended to British linens. It would be as reasonable
in France, should she treat with them on similar terms, to
say, you shall suffer our wines to be imported duty free into
Great Britain, and we in return will admit your wines duty
free into France, whenever you may have any. There were
but two ways by which this country and Ireland _ could meet
on equal terms; either to take off all duties, and admit every

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 105
indiscriminate article from either country, or to lay general
duties, ad valorem, on every commodity. The sixteenth pro
position, if worded with a view to promote cavil and increase
ambiguity, could not be more successful ; nor could any words
be used more likely to be productive of dispute than the words
" effectual preference." And the alteration of the fifth pro
position to the twelfth was liable to the same remarks. The
idea of countervailing duties, carried an absurdity on the
very face of it; for as it was not only necessary to equalize
the duty of the internal excise, but to bring it to a fair ba
lance, it would also be necessary to consider all the attendant
and incidental expences to which the British manufacturers
were unavoidably exposed. There were some taxes in this
country which it would be impossible to countervail, as the
house, the servant, and commutation tax, &c. The commer
cial complaint of Ireland he always considered ill founded,
though he thought otherwise of their political ones; but
whatever ground of complaint they might have, this cer
tainly was not the measure which could in any degree satisfy
them. They wanted not this participation ; they looked for
protecting duties; and were the advantages tenfold, he would
not pay the price demanded for them, except he lost sight of
that spirit of liberty with which that country was of late
years particularly inspired. He was sorry to hear an ho
nourable gentleman insinuate that a rupture might be the con
sequence of refusing this system to Ireland. He confessed,
that though the powers of that country were much inferior
to this, if unemployed elsewhere, he could not without hor
ror reflect for a moment on the possibility of such an event,
and there was scarcely any thing he would not surrender to
prevent it. In his own person he entertained the most un
bounded national partiality for Ireland ; he had the most par
ticular attachments there, and there was an excellency in
their character which must always endear people of that
country to such as had these attachments; yet he was so
much of an Englishman, that he could not part with those re
sources and advantages, on which our national existence de
pended. — He then took a view of the general question, and
mentioned the circumstance of an union as extremely desirable,
but what could scarcely be obtained, and.was thrown at a
greater distance than ever by the provisions of this arrange
ment. Adverting to Mr. Wilberforce's remarks on personal
confidence, he said, the honourable gentleman having pro
fessed himself to be influenced only by his judgment in this
day's vote, deserved to be commended, and the more so as he
exercised that judgment in opposition to the opinions and
instructions of his constituents. But other members of par-

106 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
liament did not hesitate to express that they were unacquaint
ed with the merits of the question, but were ready to vote
for them, reposing in the confidence and attachment they
bore to his majesty's minister ; and in doing this, they made
that sacrifice, which was the last a member of parliament
should yield ; they not only surrendered their own opinions
into the hands of the minister, but at the same time they sur
rendered the opinions of their constituents. If a member could
form no opinion of his own, he ought rather to adopt the
opinions of those constituents who sent him into parliament,
and whose interests he was engaged to consult, than yield
himself to the direction of any individual. In complimenting
the minister, it was judicious to adopt invectives against
others. His popularity, if he possessed any, had a greater
foundation in the conduct of others, than in any action of his
own ; for no measures of his own had any merit to recom
mend him to popularity; even his most zealous advocates
were obliged to abandon him in one of the principal transac
tions of the session ; but the misconception of the conduct of
others was the base on which his merit was erected, it was his
" Gay hope by fancy led." There were now petitions before
the committee which ought certainly to be attended to before
they decided on the question. It had appeared in evidence
at the bar, that false and deluding expectations were held out
to the manufacturers ; and though it was attempted to be con
troverted in the absence of one of the parties concerned, he
was now in London, and ready to corroborate what was
stated before. Disapproving so much as he did of the pre
sent system, he was determined to give it all the opposition
in his power ; for which reason he intended to try the force
of amendments with which he was prepared, and which, if
adopted, would at least qualify the resolutions, and render
them less dangerous,
The committee divided on the motion of adjournment : Yeas 90 :
Noes 195.

May 23.
The House being again in the committee on the Irish propositions,
Mr. Pitt moved the fourth resolution : viz. " That it is highly im
portant to the general interest of the British empire, that the laws
for regulating trade and navigation, should be the same in Great
Britain and Ireland ; and therefore, that it is essential towards
carrying into effect the present settlement, that all laws which
have been made, or shall be made in Great Britain, for securing
exclusive privileges to the ships and mariners of Great Britain,

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 107
Ireland, and the British colonies and plantations, and for regu
lating and restraining the trade of the British colonies and planta
tions, shall be in force in Ireland (by acts to be passed in the par
liament of that kingdom) in the same manner as in Great Britain ;
and that proper measures should from time to time be taken, for
effectually carrying the same into execution." Mr. Sluridan
asked if the words " by acts to be passed in the parliament of
Ireland," had really been moved on Friday morning last ; for he
did not recollect to have heard them till the moment the chair
man had read them. Mr. Taylor replied, that the words alluded
to were most certainly part of the motion put into his hand on
Friday morning by the chancellor of the exchequer. Mr. Pitt
said, that the alteration observed by the honourable gentleman
had been made in consequence of a gesture he perceived on that
side of the House when the proposition was read. Lord Beau-
champ moved by way of amendment to leave out the words from
" Ireland" to the words " and that proper measures should be
taken," &c. Mr. Sheridan contended, that it was fair to argue,
that the proposition was a direct attempt to legislate for Ireland,
and not the less so in consequence of the amendment. It was,
therefore, he said, insidious in the last degree for Mr. Orde not to
have stated it to the Irish parliament, to whom the business had
been opened in a very different manner. He declared, that the
voting resolutions to bind Ireland down to pass such and such laws,
without enabling her to go even into a committee with the bills,
was crippling that right of legislation which she had claimed and we
had admitted, and leaving her the mere shadow of independence,
as a sovereign state, instead of the substance. He therefore con
tended, that it was probable in the highest degree that the resolu
tion under consideration would cause great alarm, and excite much
constitutional jealousy in Ireland.
Mr. Fox began by observing, that when the Irish proposi
tions were first laid before the British House of Commons, the
minister declared that the consequence must certainly be, that
all the complaints of Ireland would be completely settled, not
only upon fair but upon advantageous terms to Great Britain.
That although a participation of our commerce would be
granted to Ireland, yet, such was the deliberate wisdom with
which the propositions had been framed, that although great
advantages were promised to Ireland, we, in fact, should be
adding very considerably to our own.
He declared, that, as a friend to Ireland, no man had it
more at heart than he had to grant every advantage to that
country consistently with the safety and welfare of his own :
that he was perfectly of opinion, the prosperity of Ireland was
the prosperity of Great Britain ; and, on the other hand, he
was also of opinion, that the prosperity of Great Britain un
doubtedly must be the prosperity of Ireland. To promote
the welfare of Ireland, and to see that perfect cordiality and

*08 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
mutual confidence firmly established, which were so essential
to the prosperity and happiness of both countries, no man
could entertain a sincerer wish, or should exert himself with
greater zeal than he was ready to do, in order to accomplish
a purpose so necessary for the good of both countries.
He should ever consider it to be his duty, as a member of
the British parliament, not only to view the propositions as
they might affect the interests of his own country, but also to
see in what way they would operate in Ireland ; for he con
sidered, that if they should tend to injure the interests of
either country, the purpose for which they were intended must
be equally and certainly defeated.
That some measures were absolutely necessary to establish
content and mutual friendship between Great Britain and
Ireland no man could doubt : but how little the propositions
that had been laid before parliament were adapted to produce
such a happy consequence, every day's examination had more
and more confirmed. That this was the fact with regard to
the propositions in general, no one could doubt who had given
them the least attention ; but if there was one proposition
more pregnant with objections, and against which both coun
tries had greater reason to complain, it was certainly this
fourth proposition now under the consideration of the com
mittee. This very proposition would certainly be found to
contain matter so injurious to both countries, that instead of
producing any thing like salutary consequences, it must, of
itself, prove the cause of endless jealousies, ill blood, and ani
mosities between the two countries.
Mr. Fox then adverted to the insidious conduct of ministry,
and to what had fallen from his honourable friend behind
him (Mr. Sheridan) respecting this very proposition not
having been laid before the Irish parliament with the rest.
Mr. Fox was certainly of opinion, that no power of language
could do away the charge of insidiousness made by his ho
nourable friend, when the direct attack against the legislative
independence of Ireland came to be justly viewed. He called
to the recollection of the committee, that when the original
propositions were laid before the House, the right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer peremptorily declared that
they must pass then — that they could not be altered — but
that such as they were they must stand or fall together. When
the minister made this declaration, it must also be fresh in
the memory of every gentleman present, with what indecent
hurry it had been attempted to carry those propositions through
the House; as well as with what extreme difficulty he had
been able to prevent the minister from succeeding in that at
tempt. Had the minister been successful in carrying the ori-

X785*] IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. IC9
-ginal propositions, it was now very well known that some of
the essential interests of this country must have been sacri
ficed ; among which the East India company's charter cer
tainly could not be ranked as the least. These facts plainly
proved, how necessary it was to take sufficient, time, to weigh
well the different effects the propositions were likely to pro
duce : several alterations, called amendments, had already
been adopted, which at first appeared to lessen the evils
the proposition contained ; but they certainly were not ade
quate to remove those solid objections that still remained
against them in general, and this fourth proposition in par
ticular ; and without removing which, the worst and most un
happy consequences must necessarily follow.
Mr. Fox declared, that aware, as he undoubtedly was, of
the imbecility of the councils by which the Irish propositions
had been framed, and doubtful, as he must certainly bfe, of
the wisdom or even fairness of any negotiation carried on by
the present ministry, he owned, however, that his apprehen
sions had been principally roused by that hurry with which the
minister attempted to drive the original propositions through
the House of Commons, and the difficulty with which he had
been able to get the opportunity that had been acquired to
consider them with some attention. Added to this, he could
not forget, how every species of obstruction had been adopted,
to prevent information from the different manufacturers from
being brought to the bar of the House; from whom informa
tion of the most valuable kind ought to have been looked for
in the present business. Nor could he forget the duplicity
with which some of these men had been treated by ministry :
it was the characteristic of men who meant to deal fairly, to
admit every information ; while men of a different descrip
tion did every thing in their power to prevent it. That this
had been the conduct of the present ministry was sufficiently
established by every part of their conduct relative to this ne
gotiation : and yet, such was the confused texture of this busi
ness, that what with the ignorance, duplicity, and hurry,
which had appeared, it was difficult to say which were most
conspicuous ; but taken altogether, it was highly necessary
to watch, with the keenest attention, the conduct of the
ministry. By the original propositions that ministry had attempted to
hasten through the House of Commons, it was now very well
known that they would have given up the power of the Bri
tish parliament to renew the East India company's charter.
To what motive were we to impute this circumstance in the
propositions ? Was it to be looked upon as an effect of the
minister's ignorance ? Or, was it a concealed and secret sacri-

110 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
fice intended to be made of one of the principal branches of
the revenue of Great Britain ? If we were to attribute this
sacrifice merely to that stupidity which so eminently displayed
itself throughout the whole conduct of ministry, he should be
glnd to know, what reliance could be placed on any of their
measures ? Were men capable of such neglect worthy to be
entrusted with the concerns of a great commercial nation ? If,
on the other hand, we were to imagine, that ministry were
aware of giving up the power of the British parliament to re
new the East India company's charter, what must the public
think of their fidelity to that company, upon whose shoulders
they had raised themselves to their present station ? In either
way the consequence must prove equally fatal to every thing
like confidence in the present ministry.
But what rendered the conduct of ministry most atrocious in
the propositions that had been attempted to be passed, was,
that these very propositions, which ultimately went to the anni
hilation of the East India company, as a company, altogether,
were introduced by that very man who owed his popularity to
the pretence of vindicating their charter, which all the world
knew had been abused ! Yet, we had seen that very man, who
was the pretended friend of the East India company's charter,
merely because it was a charter, introducing propositions as a
minister, by which the annihilation not only of the charter,
but of the company itself, as a company, must have been the
consequence. The public in general, and that company in
particular, were now sensible or soon must be sensible, who
were the real friends of the East India company.
Mr. Fox begged leave to observe, that every species of
misrepresentation had been made use of, to mislead the minds
of the public relative to the bill he had the honour to intro
duce for the better regulation of the East India company's
affairs. Those misrepresentations had been but too success
ful at the moment ; but he felt that confidence which filled the
mind of every man who was conscious of having acted upon
just principles for thegood of the empire, that time would open
the eyes of the public, and shew them who were the real
friends to the true interests and prosperity of the country
in general, and of that company in particular. He declared
in very animated language, that no man was a firmer friend to
personal liberty, or held the security of personal property
more sacred than himself. That no measure of his, ever
had, or ever should contain an infringement of either; and,
although such an idea had been maliciously interwoven with
his East India bill, yet, that such an idea was false and ground
less, he boldly maintained, and defied any man to prove that
there was any foundation for it. The charter by which the

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. * III
East India company held the monopoly of that trade, was
like all other charters ; it was a charter granted upon certain
conditions, tc a certain number of men, for the better con
ducting a plan for their advantage no doubt, but not merely and
entirely for their advantage, but for that of the community
at large. The East India company's charter was therefore a
trust, which so long as the conditions were fulfilled, and were
not injurious to the public, ought not to be interrupted or
molested. But, when that trust had been abused, would any
friend to the present government pretend to say, that it was
not the duty of parliament to interfere? Or that by a viola
tion of the conditions on their part, they did not themselves
forfeit their charter? The East India company's charter was
precisely a trust, not an irrevocable grant : and the conditions
upon which parliament could grant such a charter must be
consistent with the good of the empire, without which par
liament could not grant a monopoly to any set of men what
ever, nor, consistently with its duty to the public, permit
any charter to be continued the conditions of which had
been violated, or which became injurious to the public good.
The abuses of the East India company's trust, it was well
known, had been recognized by parliament, and in this
House by a very large majority. Their misconduct had not
only disgraced this country abroad, but threatened bankruptcy
and ruin to their trade at home ; and such had been the con
sequences, that parliament had not only been obliged to forego
some of its claims on the company, but to administer consi
derable assistance to save it from destruction. To preserve
that trade, which he well knew was essential to the British
revenue, he had introduced his bill, and in the hour when
popular prejudice was at its height, he had always stood for
ward with this declaration. He was ever ready to avow that
bill, and he was sure that time would shew its necessity,
though perhaps too late to effect those salutary consequences,
so greatly wanted to give stability and prosperity to the East
India company's affairs.
Mr. Fox observed, that his bill was founded on the necessity
of a regulation of the East India company's charter ; not to
remove the property or to affect it, but to give it that per
manency and support which its tendency to dissolution avow
edly stood in need of. But what was the conduct of the right
honourable the chancellor of the exchequer on that business ?
Why, although it was proved on all hands, that the charter had
been abused, and that the conditions upon which it had been
granted had been violated, yet he opposed the bill and de
fended the charter merely because it was a charter. That the
right honourable gentleman was successful in exciting ground-

112 * IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
less apprehensions respecting his bill was well known ; and
now let us see upon what degree of consistency, and what de
gree of sincerity his friendship to the East India company was
really founded. Why, the proofs of them were to be found,
and would remain for ever against him in these very pro
positions. The first negociation he was engaged in as a
minister, he had made their charter, and their existence as a
company, a sacrifice — an unnecessary, unsolicited, wanton,
and careless, or treacherous, sacrifice to Jreland. Mr. Fox
said, that he for one, would never consent to make a surren
der of the East India company's charter ; and zealous as he
undoubtedly was for the prosperity of Ireland, yet he never
could consent to place this country in so humiliating a situa
tion, that it should be obliged to solicit the consent of the
Irish parliament for leave to grant a renewal of the East
India company's charter. Upon that trade Great Britain
depended for a considerable revenue, and this the minister
ought to have remembered. Was it to be imagined that Irer
land would have returned so immense an advantage ; or, that
the Irish parliament would have been justified in giving it up
again, although they had obtained it unsolicited, through the
ignorance, or some worse motive, of our ministry, and it
should even have appeared without their intention? Un
doubtedly it would have been absurd to expect any such thing.
Once gone, there was an end of it for ever.
Of the propositions now before parliament, the more they
were considered, the more he found them liable to serious
and insuperable objections. The ministry, notwithstand-
their boasted determination of carrying them in their origi
nal form, had been obliged to give it up, and thence had
proved to all the world, that they could not vindicate them, and
that they themselves now considered them as originally inade
quate ; that they had stood upon ground which they found
not tenable, and therefore, to make them less exceptionable,
certain additions and amendments had been adopted. But
could any gentleman take upon himself to say, that the amend
ments were sufficient to remove the evils contained in the pro
positions ? Certainly not : and it was his opinion, that it
would be infinitely better for the peace and harmony of the
two countries that no treaty at all should take place, than
that the propositions now before the committee should pass.
For unless such a plan was devised, as should effectually
remove the grounds of uneasiness, without being materially
detrimental to either country, it were better, doubtless, that
no plan at all should be put into execution.
Mr. Fox then saidj that the propositions were to be con
sidered as a treaty between two independent powers for the

I 785.3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. It3
mutual advantage of both. It was a bargain going on be
tween them to this purpose, " I will give you so much for so
much." In the construction of all fair bargains, it was ever
understood, that both parties were to be benefited ; that neither
was to be wronged : that neither was to be injured. B"t
this fourth proposition possessed the most extraordinary qua
lities that ever marked a negociation : it promised so much
to Ireland, that it threatened the existence of many of our
most valuable manufactories ; it also demanded a surrender
from Ireland of her legislative independence. To grant Ireland
advantages detrimental to the immediate support of the British
empire, could never be required by Ireland ; and ought not
to be given by us. To grant Ireland advantages, and require
a price she could not accede to without relinquishing her
legislative independence, would be an insult to her understand
ing. Yet such was the absolute tendency of this fourth
proposition, and such the consequences that must take place
if it was carried.
The complaints of Ireland undoubtedly merited every
attention, and might, if not removed by wise and salutary
measures, prove the cause of serious consequences. But did
any one imagine, that her complaints were to be relieved by
advantages arising from a participation of our trade, when
she, on the other hand, was to be obliged to relinquish the
independence of her parliament ? Would not that resump
tion of the legislative power of the British parliament over
that of Ireland, be a means of defeating every advantage to
be expected from a participation of our trade? Undoubtedly
it would : and in this case, Ireland made an absolute and cer
tain surrender of what was her chief pride, — the indepen
dence of her parliament — for a participation, the advantages
of which Great Britain could always defeat by her resumed
power over the parliament of Ireland.
That the uneasiness of Ireland was worthy of the greatest
exertions of our abilities, and required immediate attention,
must be admitted : but when the effects of this proposition
should take place on the manufacturers of this country who
who had applied by petition, were we to imagine that the
complaints of the people of England would be iess formidable,
when they should find their interests sacrificed ? Did any
man pretend to say, that a commotion in England would be
less alarming than discontent in Ireland ?
The necessity of pursuing this business with the utmost
circumspection, the necessity of acting upon deliberation, arose
from this circumstance, that the propositions, when acceded
to by Ireland, would and must be final. An honourable gen
tleman (Mr. Dempster) imagined it was necessary that these
VOL. III. 1

114 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
propositions should be tried, because something was neces
sary to be done ; but he was clearly in an error respecting
the nature of the present negociation. The honourable gen
tleman considered it as differing from the treaty with Scotland
which forms the union, as that treaty could not be altered ;
because* said he, one of the parties who framed it is no more,
meaning the Scottish parliament. He imagined that the pre
sent propositions could be altered, because both the parlia
ments who agreed to them will still remain. In this Mr. Fox
begged leave to observe, the honourable gentleman had totally
misunderstood the fact. The propositions, when agreed to by
the British and Irish parliament, would form a solemn treaty,
which neither country could afterwards alter or infringe, with
out a direct violation of good faith. And in this he held the
language and idea of the chancellor of the exchequer; and in
this, and in this only, he agreed with him. However detri
mental the propositions, therefore, might hereafter be found
to either country, that country could not redress herself; for
such was the nature of the treaty. Did they not therefore
demand the most deliberate investigation ?
The alterations that the propositions had already under
gone, were standing proofs, that no dependence ought to be
placed in the wisdom of those who originally offered them to
parliament. After the. declaration made by the minister, upon
his first laying those propositions before parliament, that they
must stand or fall together, his mortification could not be small,
to find himself forced to submit to alterations, in order to pre
serve that majority from which he had received so many proofs
of acquiescence to his measures. Supported as the right honour
able gentleman often had boasted he was, yet he had certainly
been disappointed in the present business : he had not fouRd the
present House of Commons pliant enough entirely to forget their
duty to their country : he had been forced to admit amend
ments ; but, whether with a view to benefit this or that country,
or only to maintain the station he now filled, the public must
be left to judge. That the minister had solemnly declared, he
would admit no alteration in the original propositions, was a
fact. Had he kept his word ? No : but by acting as he had
done, it was plain his confidence in the support of the present
House of Commons began to abate. And there was little
doubt, but as they receded from the minister's confidence, they
would rise in the good opinion of the public. For, perhaps,
a more general and better-founded alarm had never spread it
self all over the kingdom than had been excited by these pro
positions.
- The people had been very slow in their apprehensions of
the present ministry. From the present parliament, undoubt-

1785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 1 1 5
edly, the people had a right to expect the strongest exertions,
and the most unremitting care for the general good. The
majority had been sent to parliament under the most popular
approbation, though founded in delusion, that ever had marked
a general election. Yet, of the ministry, the people had shewn
by the petitions that crowded the table, that they had not now
that confidence they once had, and that they were seriously
alarmed for the safety of their trade and manufactures, and in
a degree that no minister had ever dared to expose them to
before. Little, indeed, could the people suspect, that the same
man who had made himself popular by a clamorous support
of" a charter which had been abused, would, when in power,
have attempted to hurry propositions through the House, that
entirely gave up for ever the power of renewing that very char
ter ! For no man would pretend to say, it would have been
doing less, if the minister had been able to pass the original
propositions. But with what astonishment must the people be
hold him engaged in a business, by which so many manufac
tories must be exposed to ruin ; and which, at one blow, swept
away the means of existence to thousands of the manufacturers
of Great Britain ! That these were facts, the petitions upon
the table proved. And petitions from a more numerous or
more respectable body of men (however neglected and insulted
by ministers) had never been presented to this House before.
Much, . though ill-founded, reliance was placed on the
amendments that had been made. But were they adequate
to remove the evils with which the propositions were loaded?
No. Had the petitions ceased to come in since the amend
ments had been adopted ? No. Had ministry been able to
get any one set of manufacturers in the kingdom to approve
of the propositions, ^notwithstanding the amendments? No.
They had not been able to obtain one paper of approbation to
lay upon that table, which groaned with the mass of petitions
against the propositions ? Was the conduct of the ministry
sanctioned by any one set of men in the kingdom, who had
appeared in the business? No. Was not every man in a
state of alarm who had the least sense 9f the danger of the
propositions ? Certainly. That this fourth proposition con
tained in it subject of serious alarm to the manufacturers of
Great Britain was fully established.
But let us see how .Ireland would be affected. Would she
only be benefited ? Was there nothing prejudicial to her in
terest's contained in this proposition ? Undoubtedly yes : for
it was made a part of it, that she must relinquish her legisla
tive independence, and adopt again in future, laws made by
the British parliament. To take a more direct view of this
proposition, it would be found, that where the ministry had
12

116 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23*
not displayed their imbecility, they had been insidious ; where
they had not been insidious, they had been treacherous ; and
by one or other or all these, had they been directed in their
prosecution of this very proposition now before the committee.
His honourable friend behind him, (Mr. Sheridan,) had
Clearly established the insidious conduct of ministers in not
having laid this proposition before the Irish parliament with
the others ; particularly, as by it, Ireland bound herself to re
sign her legislative independence. If it should be pretended,
that there was no insidious intention in not carrying this pro
position before that parliament, it became a proof of their
imbecility in not having done so; because it was deemed es
sential: and therefore it proved that ministry had not been ca
pable of finishing and compleating their system to lay before
Ireland. If it should be pretended that there was no
meaning in the clause which bound the Irish to adopt the
British acts of parliament, and that Ireland would not be
bound by it, then must the whole be treachery to this country.
As a proof of the imbecility of ministers, and how distant
this negociation was from the estimation due to a well-digested
plan, Mr. Fox observed, that very early in that evening's de
bate the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer had
informed them, that one of the alterations, called amendments,
in this fourth proposition, was made in consequence of some
gestures he perceived on that side of the House when the pro
position was read in the committee the last time of meeting.
Could a stronger picture be given how little administration
was able to rely upon their own deliberations, than was con
veyed in this declaration of the minister ? That nothing per
manent or beneficial to either country could be expected from
the councils of those who framed the propositions, Mr. Fox
said he well knew. But that such a mark should be set upon
them by the minister as this, that he had adopted an alteration
barely upon perceiving a gesture on that side of the House,
was an acknowledgement how little they could depend on
their own judgments beyond what he could have looked for.
What could the people think of the whole system, when a
gesture was the avowed cause, by the minister, of an alteration
in one of the Irish propositions, which was declared essential
towards carrying into effect the present settlement, and formed
one of the most important branches of that system which was
to give content to Ireland, and mutual happiness to both king
doms ! That very system, which the same minister told them
must stand or fall together, we now found, by the same
minister, was become so weak in their own eyes, that a gesture
was a sufficient reason to make an alteration in it. Such was
the consistency and firmness of the present administration !
10

785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. II)
But, notwithstanding this gesticulated alteration, the origi
nal evil still remained. Like every other alteration made in
what was in itself radically bad, every amendment, as they
were called, only shewed the original deformity of the propo
sitions in stronger and stronger colours. This fourth propo
sition, as it now stood, could never be agreed to. The first
and second part were incompatible, and it was impossible that
both countries could agree to it. In the first part Ireland was
promised a participation of our trade. This must afford,
aTTfirst sight, a fruitful prospect to her. But what were the
terms upon which she was to attain this participation ? Why,
by binding herself to adopt such British acts of parliament,
hereafter to be made, as Great Britain should think fit to send
there. Would Ireland agree to this with her eyes open?
And would the Irish not discover the surrender demanded of
them on the first perusal of the proposition? Undoubtedly
they would ; for to suppose they would not, would be estimat
ing them a nation of idiots. However detrimental an unlimited
participation of our trade might be to our manufacturers, yet
the benefit to Ireland must be remote. And Ireland, by this
proposition, in surrendering her legislative independence, gave
up a certain good for an uncertain benefit. If a man were to
set about framing a proposition that could contain matter
most objectionable to both countries, he could not frame one
more completely so than this fourth proposition ; seeing that
the advantages held out by the first part of it are overbalanced
by the demand of a surrender of the legislative power of
Ireland. Hereafter Ireland would have no power to consult
her own interests, but must adopt the British acts of parliament;
and having once agreed to the propositions, she from that time
would have no alternative, but must adopt the laws framed
here, and sent to her. Was it imagined the people of Ireland
would not see through this farce as a favour ? Would not the
mind of an Irishman revolt now at the idea of keeping up the
form of a parliament, who must register those laws which
should hereafter be sent to Ireland? They would have no al
ternative, nor could they call one of those laws into question,
or debate even upon their merits : having agreed to accept
these propositions, they would be bound for ever to obey this
condition. An attempt had been made by the opposite side of the
House to assert, that whatever the consequences might be to
Ireland, she would have no right to complain, because the
propositions originated in her own parliament. With re
spect to the fourth proposition, this argument, mean as it cer
tainly was, could not be applied, as it did not originate in
Ireland. But as to laying any stress upon the propositions
1 1

Il8 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
coming from Ireland officially, it was well known and generally
admitted that they sprang originally from -the ministry here.
Therefore there could be no advantage taken against Ireland
oh account of the propositions coming from her parliament.
To impose upon a people under any pretence, but particu
larly at the. same moment you are telling them of granting
them advantages which they did not possess before, could
only be attempted by the worst of men, and the most profli
gate of ministers. Even if such a trick could be successful,
would any man pretend to say that an imposition was the
most likely way to heal the disquietude of the people of Ire
land ? Did any man pretend to say that a system built upon
such principles was capable of establishing any thing like an
harmonious or permanent understanding between the two
countries ? He must be a visionary in politics indeed, who
could entertain an idea so absurd. In order to illustrate this
position, Mr. Fox begged leave to suppose a case, that we were
carrying on a negociation with any foreign power that was
friendly towards us : and that the minister of this country had
induced that power to prefer such and such proposals to our
parliament. When they found that they had been trepanned
into an imposition, was it to be imagined they would abide by
it, merely because they had been seduced by our minister to
be the proposers of it ? Undoubtedly they would not : and
indeed, so far from thinking themselves bound to abide by it
under such circumstances, their pride and interest would feel
doubly wounded, and the treachery of such a minister would
operate with double force to make them reject it more firmly
and with greater resentment.
As Ireland by this proposition must be obliged to adopt
whatever laws Great Britain in her wisdom should see fit to
make for the regulation of that trade which Ireland was to
share, was it not the most obvious thing in the world, that,
having that power, the British parliament would abandon the
interest of this country, if, in framing her laws, they were not
particularly attentive to the particular interests of Great Bri
tain ? No man could doubt it. Yet if we were even to allow
that this should not happen, and that it never did happen,
still, such was the natural jealousy of human nature, such
the apprehension naturally raised by giving power to others,
that suspicion would unavoidably rise, and the natural conse
quences of such suspicion must follow.
The chief aim of Ireland in all her late endeavours was
to obtain an independent parliament, and she was now pos
sessed of a legislature independent of Great Britain. Was
ft to be imagined that, under the idea of getting a participa
tion of our trade, she would relinquish that power ? It would,

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. I lp
in fact, be yielding up her independency entirely to do so ;
and it would be estimating them a nation of idiots, to suppose
they would give up the principal characteristic of a free peo
ple, or make a certain sacrifice for a promised benefit they
never might be the better for. Even if Ireland agreed to
surrender her legislative independence, and bound herself to
adopt in silence whatever laws Great Britain should here
after think proper to impose, were we to expect the same -
obedience to those laws as if they had been framed by their
own parliament ? There was, Mr. Fox observed, a material
difference between that kind of obedience, which arose from
a mind influenced and guided by voluntary and constitutional
ideas, and that which arose from the mind which aimed not
beyond 'that which claimed no higher description than the
French gave by the term par maniere d'acquif. Tedious
and ineffectual must be the obedience paid to laws framed
in this country for Ireland now, when that spirit, which alone
gave energy and dignity to the execution of all laws, was
broken and discomfitted. This fourth proposition, there
fore, is so pregnant with evils and objections, that the framer
of it seemed only to have been engaged how to distress us
with the difficulty of enumerating them. Thus stood the
objections against this fourth proposition — objections on all
sides unanswerable, solid, and irremoveable — objections that
in the very face and front of them threatened worse con
sequences, and, in future, greater evils than any that could
now exist.
Mr. Fox begged leave to state before he concluded, that it
was the practice of the right honourable the chancellor of the
exchequer, in answer to any remarks that he had the honour
to submit to that House, to take great pains . to make it be
believed that he (Mr. Fox), by exposing the weakness and
fallacy of the measures of administration, in effect created
them. Gross and absurd as such a mode of argument cer
tainly was, the right honourable gentleman was so constantly
in the use of it, that Mr. Fox said he foresaw that on the
present occasion it would form the line of his conduct. Of
this it was only necessary to observe, that it would be in
cumbent on the right honourable gentleman to prove how
the exposure of an evil could create it. Mr. Fox, with some
warmth, declared, that he hoped he was too well acquainted
with his duty in parliament to sit there merely to register
the measures of any ministry without examining them to the
best of his abilities. If the arguments he had used to shew
the fallacy and insufficiency of this fourth proposition, and
its direct tendency to injure both countries, were not founded
upon facts, the good sense of the people of Ireland would pay
M

120 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 23.
no regard to them. The manufacturers of Great Britain
would be contented.
Administration had taken some pains to make the House
believe that if they could carry this fourth proposition in the
Irish parliament, there would be an end of the business, and
an end to all apprehensions on our part, as the treaty must
then be final. But let the House not deceive themselves with
this idea, nor think so meanly of the Irish, that even if their
parliament should make a surrender of their legislative in
dependence, the people at large would agree to it, or remain
quiet under such a sacrifice. There were recent historical
facts which proved that the acquiescence of the Irish House
of Commons was not conclusive. And it was necessary to
make this remark now, that we might not be deceived into
a belief, that by their acceding to this fourth propositiou the
business must be finally settled. It was not the acquiescence
merely of this or that description of men that could settle
upon a firm basis the terms that were equal to bind and
cement the interests and prosperity of a great commercial
people, if that acquiescence was given in opposition to reason
and to facts.
Salus populi suprema lex was a maxim universally admitted.
And such was the unfortunate construction of the fourth
proposition, that nothing was more probable than that both
countries would be obliged to appeal to it for relief. In
competent as the propositions had been found to quiet the
uneasinesses or secure the affections of Ireland, and per
nicious as this fourth proposition was, in particular, to the
honour or interests of either country, Mr. Fox appealed to
the candour and good sense of the committee, whether it
would not now be more fair, more manly, and more honour
able to address the Irish to this purpose ; — " that, however
desirous and happy we should be to serve you, yet, in jus
tice to our own country, we find we cannot grant what we
offered. Without being the ruin of many here, we cannot
serve an equal number of you. Without exposing our own
country and its manufactures and manufacturers to ruin, or
without your yielding up the independency of your parlia
ment, we cannot grant the participation offered to you."
Gloomy, disgraceful, and fatal as this address would prove
to the present ministry, yet it could not be denied but that
the same address was conveyed to the Irish indirectly by this
very proposition.
To prosecute this measure upon terms that never could be
adhered to, and, if admitted, could never prove permanent,
must prove the source of endless and additional complaints
from Ireland, and of trouble to Great Britain. As a generous

I78S-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 121
and liberal people, the Irish ought to be dealt with accord
ingly. They were capable of receiving the worst with for
titude; but it was by no means to be expected, therefore,
that they would be imposed upon with patience. The pros
perity of Ireland was undoubtedly to be considered as the
prosperity of Great Britain, and there was no Irishman of
sense but was equally sensible that the prosperity of England
was the prosperity of Ireland. In our prosperity the Irish
were as firmly interested as we were in theirs ; and if they
could not prosper without endangering that trade upon which
the revenue of the empire principally depended for support,
they would ultimately find it a purchase dearly bought. Yet
it was by no means his opinion that the prosperity of Ireland
might not be promoted without injury to the British trade :
but of this he was sure, that no good could ever arise from
the present measure of ministry towards carrying on the pur
poses so much wanted — that of a perfect and cordial under
standing between the two countries.
Nothing was more plain, and nothing more true, than that
the more the Irish propositions had been investigated, the
greater number of objections had arisen up against them.
They promised much to Ireland, but took away more than
they gave. The learned gentleman over the way (Mr. Dun
das) had said more to these points probably than he intended :
he had avowed a caution necessary on his part, to say how
little Ireland would be benefited, how much Great Britain
would be a gainer. This was the ministerial language
here ; and it was well known they held another language in
the other kingdom. This was only part of that littleness of
conduct, mixed with duplicity, that distinguished all the
measures of the present ministry, and particularly their con
duct throughout this negociation.
This system was pregnant with the worst consequences to
both countries. Without administering any certain good to
Ireland, it was to be accomplished only by a surrender of her
legislative independence. The participation threatened, on
one hand, ruin to many of our most valuable manufactories,
and demanded a surrender from Ireland, ever too dear for
her to pay, for any advantages of trade so remote and un
certain as it might prove. A system loaded with such ob
jections, and pregnant with such mischiefs to both countries,
Mr. Fox declared he could not vote for. Monstrous as the
sacrifices were that had been attempted by ministry to be
made to Ireland (in particular that of the power of renewing
the East India company's charter) ; destructive as this fourth
proposition must prove to thousands of manufacturers in this
kingdom; yet nothing was more obvious than this fact, that

122 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May3©.
Ireland would reap no advantage whatever, as the resump
tion of the British parliament over that of Ireland took a
power that did away every idea of benefit to be expected from
the participation of our trade.
Numerous as the objections against this proposition really
were, Mr. Fox declared he did not take upon him to say that
all the objections contained in them were yet found out ; for
as more of them were discovered, the more they seemed to
multiply, and grow daily stronger by their numbers. It was
not, - therefore, to be wondered that ministry did every thing
in their power to hurry therrr through parliament; but let
them beware of the consequences.
Impregnated as the propositions were with the most alarm
ing mischiefs to both countries, and foreign as they were to
effect any one good purpose to either, it was his duty to
oppose them ; for, instead of producing benefits, they would
certainly prove the source of the most unhappy consequences
both to Great Britain and to Ireland.
The question being put on the amendment proposed by Lord
Beauchamp, the committee divided: Yeas 36: Noes 194. The re
solution was then agreed to.

May 30.
The report of the committee of the whole House on the Irish
Propositions was this day taken into consideration. Mr. Sheridan
opposed the fourth resolution in a most able speech. Mr. Pitt said,
that it had been his intention to have remained silent, not expecting
any thing new to occur on a subject which, for a long series of
time, had undergone such frequent and patient debate. However,
though nothing had been brought forward in the course of the pre
sent argument, except what tended to inforce objections that had
already been made and answered ; yet the channel through which
the present opposition came, and the mode in which it. had been
handled, was such, as strongly demanded some farther notice from
him. When he considered the language that had been held, and
the quarter it came from, when he reflected on the designs of
those who had presented themselves in so conspicuous a manner as
the enemies of the resolution th^n before the House, and saw with
how much artifice and zeal those designs were supported, and when
he weighed the motives, as well of those who had been silent as
of those who had spoken to the question, he could not remain an
idle spectator in a transaction that so essentially concerned the
interest of the two kingdoms, which composed the remaining part
of the British empire. If a chain of recent events, and the whole
tenor of the conduct that had been adopted by persons of a certain
description had not exhausted and anticipated his surprise at any

£785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 123
thing that could come from them, he could scarcely believe his
senses, when he beheld a gentleman (Mr. Sheridan), who for many
weeks had concealed his intentions so effectually as to leave it a
doubt whether he was friendly or hostile to the arrangement now
depending, stand forth the avowed enemy of a part of the system
which was necessarily connected with the whole, and take up a
ground of opposition the .most dangerous and inflammatory that
could possibly suggest itself. But it was not to be wondered at
that the conduct of the honourable gentleman should be so incon
sistent, when it was remembered, how inconsistent all the measures
of the party of which he was the mouth, were in themselves, and
how inconsistent the persons who composed that party were with
one another. Still the pursuits of that party, however various and
however contradictory, had one uniform tendency. Whether they
reprobated on this day, what they had approved on the preceding,
or whether they abandoned a principle which they had before ad
mitted ; whether one individual differed from or coincided with the
rest of his associates, still the effect of all their efforts, of all their
perseverance, and of all their tergiversation was to be the same ¦ —
to embarrass and confound the measures of administration, to em
broil and disunite the affections of their fellow-subjects, to excite
groundless alarms, and on those groundless alarms to foment the
most dangerous discontents. The noble lord in the blue ribbon,
in assenting to the resolution, and the honourable gentleman in
opposing it, had taken care to support their several opinions by the
same argument, and that argument was, of all others, best calcu
lated to promote the ultimate design of both, however different the
modes they took to accomplish it — the jealousy and resentment of
the sister kingdom. The resumption of legislative supremacy over
Ireland was the ground of acquiescence in the one, of dissent in
the other ; and thus they divided between them the two features of
the character which their right honourable friend, Mr. Fox, had
shewn himself so ambitious to assume, that of an English and an
Irish patriot. How gentlemen could think themselves warranted
in setting up an opposition to measures, in favour of which they
had borne more than a silent testimony, (for they had expressly ac
knowledged the several amendments to be such, as not only were
in themselves unexceptionable, but had also the positive merit of
correcting, in a great degree, the objectionable qualities of the ori
ginal propositions, ) was a circumstance only to be accounted for
by those who, from a close attention to the conduct of the party,
and a congeniality of sentiment with them, had brought themselves
to understand and to adopt the whole of their system, and were
thence enabled to see that it was a double game that they were
playing, and that their appearing to oppose the resolutions by
arguments directly contrary to each other, was merely with a view
to secure the same end, and to compass the same design.
Mr. Fox began with remarking, that, in the personal and
political character of the right honourable the chancellor of
the exchequer, there were many qualities and habits that had

124 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30.
often surprised him, and, he believed, had confounded the
speculations of every man who had ever much considered or
analyzed his disposition ; but that his conduct on that night
had reduced all that was unaccountable, incoherent, and con
tradictory in his character in times past, to a mere nothing.
That he shone out in a new light, surpassing even himself)
and leaving his hearers wrapt in amazement, uncertain whether
most to wonder at the extraordinary speech they had just
heard, or the frontless confidence with which that speech had
been delivered. Such a farrago of idle and arrogant decla
mation, uttered in any other place, and by any other person,
upon the subject in question, would naturally fill the members
of that House with astonishment; but, spoken by that right
honourable gentleman within those walls, in the presence of
men who were witnesses of all the proceedings upon this bu
siness, every one of whom could bear testimony to the gros6
and unblushing fallacy of the right honourable gentleman —
it was, Mr. Fox said, an act of boldness, a species of parlia
mentary hardihood, certainly not to be accounted for upon
any known or received rules of common sense or common
reason. I cannot (continued Mr. Fox) help remarking the vast dis
parity in the tone, the temper, and the style of expression ex
hibited by the right honourable gentleman upon ( this night,
from those which he deemed it expedient to adopt when he
opened the eighteen propositions to this House. On that
night I quoted a passage,
Telephus et Peleus, cum pauper exul et uterque,
Projicit ampullas, et sesquipedalia verba ;
and quoted it to exemplify the change occasioned by the deplor
able situation into which his rashness, his ignorance, or what is
not more reputable than either, his servile adoption of other
men's fancies, and thrusting forward the crude heap of dis
cordant and dangerous materials which form this miserable
project, had involved the right honourable gentleman. Upon
that occasion, 1 could not help observing, that the ampullte
and the sesquipedalia verba — that the right honourable gentle
man's magnificent terms, his verbose periods, and those big,
bombastic sentiments which constitute, in general, the prin
cipal part of his orations, had for once forsaken him, or been
relinquished, for language and for manners better accommo
dated to his disastrous condition. Then we saw the avowed
confederacy of the right honourable gentleman with those
about him, whose co-operation in the general system of his
government he is commonly so anxious to disavow, but whose
opinions he so uniformly propagates and asserts — then we

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. rSJ
saw that preposterous ambition, that gaudy pride, and vaul
ting vanity, which glare upon the observer beyond all the
other characteristic features of the right honourable gentle
man, and which prompt him to look down with contempt on
his political coadjutors — to fancy himself the great overseer,
the surveyor-general of the British government — we saw
this glittering assemblage melt away, and that right honour
able gentleman descend to a curious and most affecting sym
pathy with the other supporters of this system, as well as into
something like a modest and civil demeanor towards those who
oppose it. But, alas ! the right honourable gentleman's de
viation into a moderate and humble course of argument, — into
a course befitting a man detected in ten thousand instances of
folly, precipitancy, rashness, weakness, and consummate ig
norance of the subject in discussion, was but transient and
temporary. The hopes of a reform in his conduct were as
fallacious, even as the many hopes of other reforms which
that right honourable gentleman has gulled a variety of per
sons in this country to entertain upon points of more import
ance. Upon this night, the right honourable gentleman has
relapsed into his own favourite and darling habits — the am
pulla and sesquipedalia verba are again resumed, with addi
tional redundancy. Nerved with new rancour, and impelled
with fresh vehemence, the right honourable gentleman rushes
blindly forward ; but surely it cannot escape observation, that
the display of these passion*, and the resumption of that
mode of reasoning, are the best proofs that the right ho
nourable gentleman is, indeed, reduced to the last extremity ;
and, by the use of such arguments, that he shews himself
destitute of any that better become a real statesman, or a
great orator.
Beaten out of every thing that bears the resemblance of ar
gument, without the least shred or remnant of reasoning to
support him, the right honourable gentleman is forced upon
the rash and dangerous hazard of carrying the war into the
enemy's camp ; and finding it impossible to say one word in
vindication of his own deformed and miserable system, he is
obliged to throw out a series of invectives, and, by exhibiting
a list of charges against us — charges which, the very moment
he gave them utterance, he knew to be absolutely and en
tirely destitute of every vestige of truth — to engage the at
tention, and divert the notice of the House from his own
wretched and contemptible schemes. The admirable argu
ment of my honourable friend (Mr. Sheridan) is answered
with hard epithets, with strong assertions, with lofty phrases,
with long and laboured calumnies, and with the usual round
of redundant and disgusting egotisms. In proportion to the

I 26 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30,
poverty of the cause he engages in, is the pompous assump
tion of the right honourable gentleman ; and of all the various
singularities which compose his character, nothing, I confess,
amazes me so much as the perfect composure with which he
attempts to criminate his adversaries, upon points in which he
is himself, of all men living, the most vulnerable; and the
steadiness and resolution with which he puts forth accusations,
in desperate defiance of (truth, and with as determined a
contempt of prudence and propriety in the manner of urging
them. Before I touch upon the charges to which I allude, I cannot
help observing, with what special grace the right honourable
gentleman ridicules long speeches — with what a singular pro
priety he, of all the members in this House, attempts to cor
rect others for occupying much of the time of the House. I
do not intend to deny the right honourable gentleman the
merit of great abilities, great eloquence, and great powers of
pleasing his hearers ; but of all the crimes to be urged against
any person within these walls, the last, undoubtedly, for the
right honourable gentleman to venture upon is, to charge the
long duration of his speech as a fault against any member.
The right honourable gentleman, like myself, is under the
necessity of troubling this House much oftener, and for a
much longer tune, than is, perhaps, agreeable ; and it ill be
comes either of us to reprobate others for a practice we our
selves so frequently fall into. Grateful for the indulgence we
are favoured with, we should certainly be the last to condemn
that in which we ourselves are the greatest transgressors.
And I shall drop this part of the subject, with only remark
ing, that if an almost uniform deviation from the immediate
subject in discussion, — if abandoning liberal argument for il
liberal declamation, — if frequently quitting sound sense for
indecent sarcasms, and preferring to rouse the passions and
inflame the prejudices of his auditory to the convincing their
understandings and informing their judgments, tended to di
minish the title of any member of this House to a more than
common portion of its temper and endurance — I do not
know one gentleman who would have so ill-founded a claim
upon it for such favours, as the right honourable gentleman
himself. The right honourable gentleman has struggled much to fix a
charge of inconsistency upon my noble friend, and upon my ho
nourable friend near me ; and such is the fatality of an inordi
nate appetite for accusation, that the only point by which he has
chosen to illustrate this inconsistency, is a point that proves as
clear as day-light, that both the one and the other is perfectly and
thoroughly consistent. The noble lord supports the fourth pro-

I785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 1 27
position, because he thinks it makes laws no more for Ireland
than is, in this instance, just. The honourable gentleman repro
bates it, because he thinks it an insidious, deceitful, and treach
erous manoeuvre, to cheat the Irish out of their independence,
and dupe them into servility, by prospects of advantages of
another kind. The noble lord and the honourable gentleman
have taken the same side, argued upon the same principle,
and acted under the same impression, upon the same subject,
from the first moment the right honourable gentleman in
troduced it to this House ; their language has been unvarying,
and their conduct in strict unison with their respective decla
rations. The noble lord has shewn the danger to the trade
of England from the adoption of these propositions, and has,
in my judgment, unanswerably proved, that the promised
compensation is fallacious in the extreme ; in both these posi
tions my honourable friend concurs; nay, he goes farther,
and demonstrates, that although he might wish well to the
propositions as generally favourable to the trade of Ireland in
their original state, the right honourable gentleman's altera
tions have so radically changed their nature, that Ireland will
be the positive loser in these three great branches, viz. the
American, West Indian, and East Indian trade ; so that the
only chance she has of benefit, or of indemnifying herself for
the injury she receives by the change of her present system of
trade in these great lines of commerce, consists solely in the
hopes of underselling England in the English markets. He
therefore considers the arrangement upon the whole as preju
dicial to Ireland (independent of the attempt at resuming the
power of legislation under the fourth proposition) — because
it is not by the downfal of England that he wishes Ireland to
prosper. Thus, all my noble friend's argument tended to
shew the danger to the manufactures and trade of England
from the proposed system: my honourable friend admits,
that Ireland's only source of benefit is confined to England,
for that, in the arrangement of the foreign trade, every thing
is against her ; and in this point, so triumphantly dwelt upon
by the right honourable gentleman as the criterion of their
contradiction, nothing, in fact, appears but the most precise
consistency on their part. This detection of his mistake may
perhaps — but I believe nothing can — teach the right ho
nourable gentlemen to consider a charge before he makes it,
and not to waste so much phlegm, nor expend so many fine
periods, upon subjects which will only shew his own rashness,
weakness, and, I had almost said, absurdity.
But the right honourable gentleman seems determined, at
all risks, to fill up the catalogue of accusations, and in the
hey-day of his spleen, in the plenitude of his indignation, to

128* IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May^O.
contemn every consequence to himself, provided he succeeds
in giving us a side blow. What is the world to think of that
right honourable gentleman's discretion and judgment from
this night, who, upon the subject of the Irish propositions,
ventures neither more nor less, than to charge us with shift
ing our ground, and playing a double game? Is there a
gentleman present, who would have believed that the right
honourable gentleman could have been so unguarded, so
senseless, so mad, as to stumble on such a charge ? For him
to talk of our shifting our ground ! He, who has shifted his
ground, until, in truth, he has no ground to stand upon !
He, who has assumed so many shapes, colours, and charac
ters, in the progress of this extraordinary undertaking ! He,
who has proclaimed determinations only to recede from them;
who has asserted principles only to renounce them ! He,
whose whole conduct, from the first moment the system
has been proposed, has been one continued chain of tricks,
quibbles, subterfuges, and tergiversations; uniform alone in
contradictions and inconsistencies ! Compare the twenty pro
positions now upon your table, with the eleven original ones,
as the right honourable gentleman introduced them to this
House ; compare his language on that day with the language
of this night ; compare the nature of the two strings of propo
sitions, substantially and fundamentally subverted in many
parts, in all materially altered, with those reiterated declara
tions, that not one principle could on any terms be meddled
with : let the House reflect upon these circumstances, and
then let them judge, whether a grosser piece of insanity was
ever heard of than that the author of all this miserable foolery
should charge others with shifting their ground !
Who proposed the scheme to Ireland as a digested system,
final and complete ; pledging the faith of government that
the eleven propositions contained the whole, and that not one
of them should be altered ? The right honourable gentleman.
Who swelled these eleven propositions to eighteen — in a va
riety of fundamental points radically altered and overturned ?
The right honourable gentleman. Who assured the body of
British traders and manufacturers, that their respective
branches should be faithfully secured from every evil ; who
denied this assurance afterwards ; who solemnly declared, in
the face of the House of Commons, that all the principles of
the original eleven propositions should remain inviolate; who
was it afterwards that openly violated this solemn declaration ?
Let the right honourable gentleman answer these questions if
he can, and let the world decide which side of the House has
been playing a double game.
But, Sir, if is not in retorting these silly charges that we
rest our defence. From the beginning we have been Uniform

1785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 1 29
and consistent ; and if any new objections have been urged by
us, they are attributable to the novelty of the propositions
which the right honourable gentleman has produced without
any previous notice to this House. It were, indeed, a hard
ship and injustice, if because we combated the defects of a new
scheme, we were liable to the charge of shifting our ground
against an old scheme, no longer the object of discussion.
And here I cannot help observing, that if it be true, thatingra-
titude is the worst of sins, I can see no fight in which the right
honourable gentleman appears, but that of the worst of sin
ners. What a pernicious scheme would this have been, un-
purged by our amendments ! and what a return does he make
us ! But there are proud and sullen souls enveloped in fas
tidious admiration of themselves, and haughty contempt for
the rest of the world, upon whom obligation has only the ef
fect of enmity, and whose hatred is best secured by redeeming
them from danger and dishonour.
There remains one charge to be noticed, which is more
singular, if possible, than the former, because it is more pal
pably groundless. The right honourable gentleman affirms,
that now, for the first time, an objection is made to the
fourth proposition ; and he infers from my silence this night
that I have no arguments to oppose to it. How any man,
with the smallest faculty of recollection, with the slightest
feeling of shame, can hazard such an assertion, is, I confess,
to me perfectly unaccountable ! I do not believe there is one
man, not merely in this House, but in this country, who reads
a newspaper, that can be ignorant, that I have uniformly
reprobated this fourth proposition from the first moment of its
introduction — that we divided the committee upon this very
clause of the system — and that our minority was a very small
one. The very arguments I shall now urge against it, will
demonstrate the falsehood of the accusation, for they will only
be a repetition of what I have said before ; and, when the
House recollect that I am charged with having never before
objected to this proposition, they will, I trust, excuse the
tautology. Here Mr. Fox went over the ground of his objections to
this part of the system. He said, he had no doubt the fair
construction of the fourth resolution would appear to any
man of common sense, to be virtually to make laws for Ire
land, and would be to renovate rashly and wantonly the jea
lousies of the whole Irish nation, upon a point of the most
peculiar tenderness and delicacy. In vain were attempts
made to assimilate this surrender of the legislative indepen
dence of Ireland, with the .case of treaties between two so
vereign states. In the latter case, one state bound itself to
vol. in. k

I3O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30.
do something defined and specific when the other adopted
some defined and specific measure. Here was no condition
of servitude and obedience, but a mutual agreement to ac
complish something understood and particularised by com
mon consent, for their common advantage, upon a certain
contingency. To make the cases similar, an instance should
be produced (which instance, Mr. Fox affirmed, could not
be foutid in the history of mankind) where one independent
state bound itself solemnly to do any thing undefined, un-
specific, and. uncertain, at the arbitrary demand of another
state. Precisely such a demand would be made upon Ire
land; and if this proposition was adopted, no man would be
simple enough to deny, that England would make laws for
Ireland ; for what would be the passing of a bill under the
operation of this member of the proposed system through
the parliament of Ireland but a legislative mockery ? For not
a single change could be made in it afterwards, and fair , dis
cussion and free agency would, from that moment, be utterly
extinguished. Thus incontestably stood the matter in point of reasoning
and in point of fact. He could conceive many possible cases,
where the concurrence of the Irish parliament might be re
quired to arrangements absolutely destructive of the interests
of Ireland : suppose an English act of parliament restrained
the trade to the colonies to particular articles in which Eng
land flourished, and which Ireland dealt in little or nothing :
suppose an English act of parliament prohibited all foreign
trade in ships of a certain description, and in which de
scription alone Ireland now carried on her trade. Many
other cases would occur to gentlemen, if they would take the
trouble of reflecting upon the possible operations of the fourth
proposition. This system once adopted, Ireland, without
breach of faith, could not refuse to register the English law
into her statute book ; and numerous instances might occur
hereafter, where the parliament of that kingdom must rest
upon this desperate alternative, either to violate the faith of
the nation, or to betray and sacrifice its dearest interests.
This consideration, Mr. Fox said, even independent of its
insidiously resuming a . power most solemnly renounced,
would persuade him to the rejection of the proposition ; and
in this, as well as in a thousand other points of view, he saw
the whole of the proposed plan, as the infallible source of
eternal discontent, animosity, and ill blood, between the two
kingdoms, though we were captivated with the flourishing
and fanciful pictures of the harmony and concord that were
to cement the sister nations, according to the right honour
able gentleman's predictions.

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. I3I
The right honourable gentleman had adopted a mode of
recommending the fourth proposition, perfectly suited to the
capacity and turn of those who proclaimed their confidence
in him, as the principle that procured their support to a
system, of which they made no scruple to avow themselves
perfectly disqualified from judging. But unless he thought
all the members of that House were blinded by the same scan
dalous ignorance; unless he was weak enough to persuade
himself that the nation was possessed with the same bigotted
enthusiasm and inveterate idolatry for him, why would he ven
ture upon such nonsense ? The argument was — As well might
England complain of surrendering her legislative indepen
dence, because she was bound by this treaty to similarity of
trade and navigation laws with Ireland ; that was, that Eng
land, who was to make the law, might as well complain as
Ireland who was to obey the law. This was the right ho
nourable gentleman's argument ; and let no one imagine that
he employed such rank folly from want of abilities : the right
honourable gentleman's abilities were very considerable, and
if the cause admitted of a better defence, the right honourable
gentleman would certainly make it. When England should
agree to be governed by trade laws originating in the Irish
parliament, the right honourable gentleman's reasoning would
be forcible ; but with all the partiality of that House for him,
even he would not dare to give utterance to such a proposition
within those walls. Why he thought the Irish were more
insensible to the blessings of their constitution than the
English, Mr. Fox said he knew not.
Although the right honourable gentleman charges upon me,
(concluded Mr. Fox) that I have not heretofore opposed this
proposition, he might surely have recollected, that a noble
lord near him (Lord Mahon) had attempted to ridicule me
when this question was before under discussion, as being now
an English, now an Irish patriot; and to that ridicule, impo
tent and aukward though it fell, I beg leave to plead guilty.
I wish to appear what I really feel, both an English and an
Irish patriot ; only let it be recollected, that I am not so now
merely for the exigency of the moment. Let it be recollect
ed, that if, in defending the liberties of Ireland, and disco
vering a jealousy for her constitution, I deserve the name of
an Irish patriot, to that honour I am entitled ever since the
first day of the session, when I could not foresee the events
of the present day, and long before I knew that any com
mercial treaty with Ireland had ever been talked of. I em
braced the first opportunity afforded by the meeting of this
House, to declare my execration of the conduct of the king's
ministry in their proceedings in Ireland, where I saw the fun-
k 2

132 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30,
ilamental and most sacred principles of the constitution da
ringly overturned, and doctrines advanced and measures
adopted, in my judgment, utterly subversive of every trace of
civil liberty ; and all this in the zeal of the right honourable
gentleman to suppress the reform of parliament in Ireland.
Upon the opening of the proposed arrangements in this
House, I repeated the same arguments, and was convinced
that Ireland never called for this system, nor ever thought of
it, but was seriously occupied with other objects, I added,
that I considered the whole plan as a lure to divert the Irish
from constitutional points, by throwing the trade of England
at their feet ; and to reconcile them to the violation of the
laws of the land and of the constitution, by the enchanting
prospect of the commercial benefits held out by this system.
In this opinion I am strengthened every day, and the eager
part acted by those who surround the right honourable gen
tleman would confirm to me that my fears for the constitution
of Ireland were not ill founded, had this fourth proposition
been to this hour withheld from England, as it has been stu
diously concealed from Ireland. If this conduct, Sir, consti
tutes an Irish patriot, then am I one; and if to struggle to
save the trade of England from annihilation, gives any claim
to the appellation of an English patriot, I possess that claim.
I did not incite the merchants and manufacturers to an oppo
sition to this scheme. If I were capable of making them in
struments in this business, they were incapable of becoming
my instruments : they did not follow me; I followed them.
To the right honourable gentleman's government they were
exceedingly partial ; and not quite recovered from the insanity
of the times, they were absolutely prejudiced against me and
my friends. They are as discerning and respectable a body
of men as any in Europe, and merited, I think, better treat
ment than they experienced from the right honourable gen
tleman. No man was ever more indebted to the protection
of the people than that right honourable gentleman ; and no
people I believe ever so soon began to repent of their predi
lection. Every act of his government has tended to open their
eyes; they are, I believe, completely cured of the popular in
fection, but I fear their conviction comes a little too late.
I shall now relinquish this subject, perhaps for ever, with
repeating a sentiment that I have before thrown out during
the discussions upon this business : I will not barter English
commerce for Irish slavery ; that is not the price I would pay,
nor is this the thing I would purchase.
The Resolutions were then passed and ordered to be carried up
to the House of Lords. They here again encountered a consii

I785.J IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 13.?
derable degree of opposition, and received several amendments.
The propositions as finally agreed upon by both Houses were as
follow :
" Resolved, i. That it is highly important to the general in
terest of the British empire that the intercourse and commerce
between Great Britain and Ireland should be finally regulated on
permanent and equitable principles, for the mutual benefit of both
countries. 2. " That it is consistent with the essential interests of the ma
nufactures, revenues, commerce, and navigation of Great Britain,
that a full participation of commercial advantages should be per
manently secured to Ireland, whenever a provision, equally per
manent and secure, shall be made by the parliament of that king
dom towards defraying, in proportion to its growing prosperity,
the necessary expences, in time of peace, of protecting the trade
and general interests of the empire.
3. " That, towards carrying into full effect so desirable a set
tlement, it is fit and proper that all articles, not the growth or
manufacture of Great Britain or Ireland, except those of the growth,
produce, or manufacture of any of the countries beyond the Cape
of Good Hope, to the Streights of Magellan, should be imported
into each kingdom from the other reciprocally, under the same re
gulations, and at the same duties (if subject to duties) to which
they would be liable, when imported directly from the country or
place from whence the same may have been imported into Great
Britain or Ireland respectively, as the case may be ; and that all
duties originally paid on importation into either country respec
tively, except on arrack and foreign brandy, and on rum, and all
sorts of strong waters not imported from the British colonies in
the West Indies, shall be fully drawn back, within a time to be
fixed, on exportation to the other; but, nevertheless, that the
duties shall continue to be protected and guarded, as at present,
by withholding the drawback until a certificate from the proper
officers of the revenue in the kingdom to which the export may
be made, shall be returned and compared with the entry outwards.
4. " That it is highly important to the general interests of the
British empire, that the laws for regulating trade and navigation
should be the same in Great Britain and Ireland ; and therefore
that it is essential, towards carrying into effect the present settle
ment that all laws which have been made, or shall be made, in
Great Britain, for securing exclusive privileges to the ships and
mariners of Great Britain, Ireland and the British colonies and
plantations, and for regulating and restraining the trade of the
British colonies and plantations (such laws imposing the same re
straints, and conferring the same benefits on the subjects of
both kingdoms) should be in force in Ireland, by laws to be passed
in the parliament of that kingdom, for the same time, and in the
same manner, as in Great Britain.
5. " That it is farther essential to this settlement, that all goods
and commodities of the growth, produce, or manufacture of British
or foreign colonies in America, or the West Indies, and the British
or foreign Settlements on the coast of Africa, imported into Ireland,
* 3

134 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30.
should, on importation, be subject to the same duties and re
gulations as the like goods are, or from time to time shall be sub
ject to, upon importation into Great Britain ; or if prohibited to
be imported into Great Britain, shall be prohibited in like manner
from being imported into Ireland.
6. " That, in order to prevent illicit practices injurious to the
revenue and commerce of both kingdoms, it is expedient, that all
goods, whether of the growth, produce, or manufacture of Great'
Britain or Ireland, or of any foreign country, which shall hereafter
be imported into Great Britain from Ireland, or into Ireland from
Great Britain, should be put (by laws to be passed in the parlia
ments of the two kingdoms) under the same regulations with
respect to bonds, cockets, and other instruments, to which the
like goods are now subject in passing from one port of GreatBritain
to another.
7. " That for the like purpose, it is also expedient, that when any
goods, the growth, produce, or manufacture of the British West
India islands or any other of the British colonies or plantations,
shall v.be shipped from Ireland for Great Britain, they shall be
accompanied with such original certificates of the revenue officers
of the said colonies as shall be required by law on importation
into Great Britain ; and that, when the whole quantity included
in one certificate shall not be shipped at any one time, the
original certificate, properly indorsed as to quantity, should be sent
with the first parcel ; and to identify the remainder, if shipped
within a time to be limited, new certificates should be granted by
the principal officers of the ports in Ireland, extracted from a
register of the original documents, specifying the quantities before
shipped from thence, by what vessels, and to what ports.
8. " That it is essential, for carrying into effect the present settle
ment, that all goods exported from Ireland to the British colonies
in the West Indies, or in America, or to the British settlements on
the coast of Africa, or to the countries beyond the Cape of Good
Hope to the Streights of Magellan, should from time to time be
made liable to such duties and drawbacks, and put under such
regulations, as may be necessary, in order that the same may not
be exported with less incumbrance of duties or impositions than
the like goods shall be burdened with when exported from Great
Britain. 9. "That it is essential to the general commercial interests of the
empire, that, so long as the parliament of this kingdom shall think
it advisfeable that the commerce to the countries beyond the Cape
of Good Hope to the Streights of Magellan, shall be carried on solely
bv an exclusive company, having liberty to import into the port of
London only, no goods of the growth, produce, or manufacture
of the said countries should 'be allowed to be imported into Ireland
but through Great Britain ; except dye stuffs, drugs, cotton or
other wool, and spiceries, which may be imported into Ireland
froni foreign European countries, so long as the same are import
able from foreign European countries into Great Britain : and that
it shall be lawful to export such goods of the growth, produce, or
manufacture of any of the countries beyond the Cape of Good
13

1 785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS." I35
Hope to the Streights of Magellan, from Great Britain to Ireland,
with the same duties retained thereon as are now retained on their
being exported to that kingdom, but that an account shall be kept
of the duties retained, and not drawn back on the said goods ex
ported to Ireland, and that the amount thereof shall be remitted,
by the receiver general of his majesty's customs in Great Britain,
to the proper officer of the revenue in Ireland, to be placed to the
account of his majesty's revenue there, subject to the disposal of
the parliament of that kingdom : and that the ships going from
Great Britain to any of the said countries beyond the Cape of
Good Hope to the Streights of Magellan should not be restrained
from touching at any of the ports in Ireland, and taking on board
there any of the goods of the growth, produce, or manufacture of
that kingdom ; and that no ships be allowed to clear out from Ire
land for any of the said countries, but such ships as shall be freighted
by the said company, and which shall have sailed from the port of
London : and that, whenever the commerce to the said countries
shall cease to be so carried on solely by such an exclusive com
pany, the goods, the growth, produce, or manufacture of the
said countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope, to the Streights of
Magellan, should be importable into Ireland, from the British or
foreign settlements in the East Indies, subject to the same duties
and regulations as the like goods from time to time shall be subject
to. on importation into Great Britain ; and if prohibited to be im
ported into Great Britain, should in like manner be prohibited from
being imported into Ireland.
10. ""That no prohibition should exist, in either country,
against the importation, use, or sale of any article, the growth,
produce, or manufacture of the other, except such as either king
dom may judge expedient, from time to time, upon corn, meal,
malt, flour, and biscuits : and except such qualified prohibitions,
at present contained in any act of the British or Irish parliaments,
as do absolutely prevent the importation of goods or manufac
tures, or materials of manufactures, but only regulate the weight,
the size, the packages, or other particular circumstances, or pre
scribe the built or country, and dimensions of the ships importing
the same ; and also, except on ammunition, arms, gunpowder,
and other utensils of war, importable only by virtue of his majesty's
license ; and that the duty on the importation of every such article
(if subject to fluty in either country) should be precisely the same
in the one country as in the other, except where an addition may
be necessary in either country, in consequence of an internal
'duty, on any such article of its own consumption, or an internal
bounty in the country where such article is grown, produced, or
manufactured ; and except such duties as either kingdom may judge
expedient, from time to time, upon corn, meal, malt, flour, and
biscuits. 11. " That, in all cases in which the duties on articles of the
growth, produce, or manufacture, of either country are different,
on the importation into the other, it is expedient that they should be
reduced, in the kingdom in which they are the highest, to an amount
not exceeding the duties which were payable in the other on the
K 4

*3<5 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [May 30.
17th day of May, 1782, so that in every case' in which any article
was charged with a duty, on importation into Ireland, of ten and a
naif per centum, or upwards, on the 17th day of May, 1782, the
amount of the duties so reduced shall not be less than the said
duty of ten and a half per centum, unless in cases were any articles
are importable duty free into either kingdom from the other, which
articles shall hereafter be imported duty-free into each from the
other respectively ; and that all such articles should be exportable,
from the kingdom into which they shall be imported, as free from
duties as the similar commodities, or home manufacture of the
same kingdom : provided always, that when any such articles shall
be liable, in either country, to any duty on being exported to any
foreign country, the same articles, when re-exported from either
of the said kingdoms into which they shall have been so imported
as aforesaid, shall pay the like duties as if they had been origi
nally exported from the kingdom of their growth, produce, or
manufacture, to such foreign country.
12. " That it is also proper, that, in all cases in which the
articles of the consumption of either kingdom shall be charged
with an internal duty on the manufacture, such manufacture,
when imported from the other, may be charged with a further duty
on importation, adequate to countervail the internal duty on the
manufacture, such farther duty to continue so long only as the
internal consumption shall be charged with the duty or duties to
balance which it shall be imposed, provided that the counter
vailing duty to be paid upon manufactured salt imported into any
part of Great Britain, shall be computed upon the internal duty
payable thereon in England ; and that, where there is a duty on
the raw material of any manufacture in either kingdom, such ma
nufacture may, on its importation into the said kingdom from the
other, be charged with such a countervailing duty as may be suf
ficient to subject the same to burdens adequate to those which
such manufacture is subject to in consequence of such duties on
such raw material in the kingdom into which such manufacture
is so to be imported ; and that the said manufactures so imported
shall be entitled to such drawbacks or bounties on exportation as
may leave the same subject to no heavier burden than the home
made manufacture ; and that, in every case where a duty shall be
payable in either kingdom on any article carried coastwise from
one port to another of the said kingdom, the same article, when
imported from the other kingdom, ' should be subject to the like
duty. ? 13. " That, in order to give permanency to the settlement now
intended to be established, it is necessary that no new or addi
tional duties should be hereafter imposed, in either kingdom, on
the importation of any article of the growth, produce, or manu
facture of the other, except such additional duties as may be
requisite to balance duties on internal consumption, pursuant to
the foregoing resolution, or in consequence of bounties remaining
on such article when exported from the other kingdom.
14. " That, for the same purpose, it is necessary, farther, that
no new prohibition, or new or additional duties, should be here-

I1%5'1 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. I37
after imposed, in either kingdom, on the exportation of any ar
ticle of native growth, produce, or manufacture, from the one
kingdom to the other, except such as either kingdom may deem
expedient, from time to time, upon corn, meal, malt, flour, and
biscuits ; provided, that when any article of the growth, produce,
or manufacture of either kingdom, shall be prohibited by the
laws of the said kingdom to be exported to foreign countries, the
same article, when exported to the other kingdom, shall be pro
hibited to be re-exported from thence to any foreign countries.
15. " That, for the same purpose, it is necessary, that no boun
ties whatsoever should be paid or payable, in either kingdom; on
the exportation of any article to the other, except such as relate
to corn, meal, malt, flour, and biscuits, and except also the boun
ties at present given by Great Britain on beer and spirits distilled
from corn, and such as are in the nature of drawbacks or com
pensations for duties paid; and that no bounties should be pay
able in Ireland on the exportation of any article to any British
colonies or plantations, or to the British settlements on the coast
of Africa, or British settlements in the East Indies, or any manu
facture made of such article, unless, in cases where a similar
bounty is payable in Great Britain, on exportation from thence,
or where such bounty is merely in the nature of a drawback or
compensation of or for duties paid over and above any duties paid
thereon in Great Britain ; and that, where any internal bounty
shall be given, in either kingdom, on any goods manufactured
therein, and shall remain on such goods when exported, a coun
tervailing duty adequate thereto may be laid upon the importation
of the said goods into the other kingdom.
16. " That it is expedient, for the general benefit of the British
empire, that the importation of articles from foreign countries
should be regulated, from time to time, in each kingdom, on such
terms as may effectually favour the importation of similar articles
of the growth, produce, or manufacture of the other ; except in
the case of materials of manufacture, which are, or hereafter may
be allowed to be imported from foreign countries duty free ; and
that, in all cases where any articles are or may be subject to higher
duties on importation into this kingdom, from, the countries be
longing to any of the states of North America, than the like goods
are or may be subject to when imported as the growth, produce,
or manufacture of the British colonies and plantations, or as the
produce of the fisheries carried on by British subjects, such ar
ticles shall be subject to the same duties on importation into Ire
land, from the countries belonging to any of the states of North
America, as the same are or may be subject to on importation
from the said countries into this kingdom.
17. "/That it is expedient, that such privileges of printing and
vending books, engravings, prints, maps, charts, and plans, as are
or may be legally possessed within Great Britain, under the grant
of the crown or otherwise, and that the copy rights of the authors
and booksellers, the engraved property of engravers, print and
map sellers, of Great Britain, should continue to be protected in
the manner they are at present by the laws of Great Britain ; and

138 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [July 22.
that it is just that measures should be taken by the parliament of
Ireland for giving the like protection to the copyrights of authors
and 'booksellers, and to the engVaved property of the engravers,
print and map sellers of that kingdom.
18. " That it is expedient, that such exclusive rights and pri
vileges, arising from new inventions, as are now legally possessed
within Great Britain, under letters patent from the crown, shall
continue to be protected in the manner they are at present by the
laws of Great Britain ; and that it is just that measures should be
' taken by the parliament of Ireland, for giving the like protection
to similar rights and privileges in that kingdom ; and also that it
is expedient that regulations should be adopted, with respect to
letters patent hereafter to be granted in the case of new inventions,
so that the rights, privileges, and restrictions, therein granted and
contained, shall be of equal force and duration throughout both
kingdoms. - 19. " That it is expedient, that measures should be taken to
prevent disputes, touching the exercise of the rights of the in
habitants of each kingdom to fish on the coasts of any part of the
British dominions.
20. " That the appropriation of whatever sum the gross here
ditary revenue of the kingdom of Ireland (the due collection thereof
being secured by permanent provision) shall produce, after de
ducting all drawbacks, . re-payments, or bounties granted in the
nature of drawbacks, over and above the sum of six hundred and
fifty-six thousand pounds in each year, towards the support of the
naval force of the empire, to be applied in such manner as the
parliament of Ireland shall direct, by an act to be passed for that
purpose, will be a satisfactory provision, proportioned to the grow
ing prosperity of that kingdom, towards defraying in time of peace,
the necessary expences of protecting the trade and general interests
Of the empire."

July 22.
Mr. Pitt moved, " That the foregoing resolutions be laid before
his majesty, with an humble address, assuring his majesty, that his
faithful Commons have taken into their most serious. consideration
the important subject of the commercial intercourse between Great
Britain and Ireland, recommended in his majesty's speech at the
opening of the present session, and the resolutions of the two
Houses of parliament in Ireland, which were laid before us, by
his majesty's command, on the 22d day of February last :
" That, after a long and careful investigation of the various ques
tions necessarily arising out of this comprehensive subject, we
have come to the several resolutions which we now humbly present
to his majesty, and which we trust, will form the basis of an ad
vantageous and permanent commercial settlement between his
majesty's kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland :
" That we have proceeded on the foundation of the resolutions
of the parliament of Ireland ; but in considering so extensive an

I785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 1 39
arrangement, we have found it necessary to introduce some mo
difications and exceptions, and we have added such regulations
and conditions, as appeared to us indispensably necessary for esta
blishing the proposed agreement on just and equitable principles,
and for securing to both countries those commercial advantages,
to an equal enjoyment of which they are in future to be entitled :
" That his majesty's subjects in Ireland, being secured in a full
and lasting participation of the trade of the British colonies, must,
we are persuaded, acknowledge the justice of their continuing to
enjoy it on the same terms with his majesty's subjects in Great
Britain :
" And it is, we conceive, equally manifest, that, as the ships and
mariners of Ireland are to continue, in all time to come, to enjoy
the same privileges with those of Great Britain, the same provisions
should be adopted in Ireland as may be found necessary in this
country, for securing those advantages exclusively to the subjects
of the empire : this object is essentially connected with the ma
ritime strength of his majesty's dominions, and consequently with
the safety and prosperity both of Great Britain and Ireland :
" We therefore deem it indispensable that these points should
be secured, conditions as necessary to the existence and duration
of the agreement between the two countries : they can only be
carried into effect by laws to be passed in the parliament of Ire
land, which is alone competent to bind his majesty's subjects in
that kingdom, and whose legislative rights we shall ever hold as
sacred as our own :
" It remains for the parliament of Ireland to judge, accord
ing to their wisdom and discretion, of these conditions, as well as
of every other part of the settlement proposed to be established by
mutual consent :
" Our purpose in these resolutions is, to promote alike the com
mercial interests of his majesty's subjects in both countries ; and
we are persuaded, that the common prosperity of the two king
doms will be thereby greatly advanced ; the subjects of each will
in future apply themselves to those branches of commerce which
they can exercise with most advantage, arid the wealth, so diffused
through every part, will operate as a general benefit to the whole :
" We have thus far performed our part in this important bu
siness, and we trust that in the whole of its progress, reciprocal
interests and mutual affection will insure that spirit of union so
essentially necessary to the great end which the two countries
have equally in view :
" In this persuasion we look forward with confidence, to the
final completion of a measure which, while it tends to perpetuate
harmony and friendship between the two kingdoms, must, by aug
menting their resources, uniting their efforts, and consolidating
their strength, afford his majesty the surest means of establishing
on a lasting foundation, the safety, prosperity, and glory of the
empire." After the motion had been opposed by Lord Beauchamp and
Mr. Eden, and supported by Mr. Jenkinson,

I40 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [July 22.
Mr. Fox rose. He began by an allusion to lord Beau-
champ's apology for the apparent inconsistency of approving
of the original propositions, and yet objecting to the resolu
tions as now before the House, declaring that he was ready to
acknowledge himself in much greater danger of the censure of
inconsistency; for so far was he from approving either the one
or the other, .that he most sincerely and heartily reprobated
them both, although he confessed that they appeared at the
same time to be completely contradictory to each other. He
believed, indeed, that there never had been known two systems
so diametrically opposite, and yet each so objectionable, as the
two systems, that which had been sent from Ireland, and that
which had originated in that House, were in all their parts.
His right honourable friend (Mr. Eden) had made an at
tempt to sum up the whole account between Great Britain
and Ireland, but he was afraid the calculation would be
found much too sanguine; and so far from each country
gaining by the arrangement, they would both of them be con
siderable losers. Great Britain would lose her own market,
and the direct trade to her colonies, together with her navi
gation laws, on which her strength and importance so much
depended, while Ireland would lose her constitution, and
again become a dependent, subordinate kingdom.
One strong objection against the arrangement with him
was, that there was at present no necessity for it, and that
such an arrangement ought never to be wantonly brought
forward, but only resorted to when it was found necessary.
This necessity was known by the minister and his friends to be
so essential to the propriety of the plan, that he had en
deavoured on many occasions, to enforce it by that topic.
But what means did he take to point out the necessity ? The
principal one was that which a right honourable gentleman
opposite to him (Mr. Jenkinson) had just stated, namely, that
the necessity of such an adjustment had been declared by are-
solution, which he had the honour to move in that House in
the year 1782. He declared then, as he had declared before,
that no idea of a commercial regulation had been entertained
by the administration of that day, in proposing that resolu
tion. There were at that time certainly some regulations
wanting between the two countries; but those regulations
were to extend to political objects alone, and not to commer
cial; they were partly to establish what was much wanted,
something to replace that power, which, in their struggles for
independence, the Irish had imprudently insisted on having
abolished, and which Ije had himself given up, in compliance
with the strong current of the prejudices of that nation,
though with a reluctance that nothing but irresistible necessity

I785-3 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. I4I
could have overcome. The power, which he wished to have
seen replaced was that, which had been so often of late un
der discussion in parliament, and which had been variously
termed, being sometimes called commercial, at other times
external, and frequently, imperial legislation. It certainly
was highly necessary, that power being precipitately abolished,
that some succedaneum should be found for it ; for without
one general and superintending authority to embrace and
comprehend the whole system of the navigation of the empire,
it must necessarily happen, that much confusion and great in
convenience would take place. It was an unpromising cir
cumstance in those resolutions, that they were not so much
argued to be the result of the judgment of those who brought
them forward, as of a strained and fabricated opinion, said to
have originated with a former administration, and, as such,
forced down the throats of those who had composed that ad
ministration, and under the sanction of their names imposed
upon the House. He declared, that such gentlemen as had
asserted, that that resolution went to any idea of commercial
regulation, asserted what was wholly unfounded in fact, and
diametrically opposite to the truth.
Having so often trespassed on the time of the House in de
bating the different parts of the system, Mr. Fox said, he
would not now enter into any arguments on the detail of the
resolutions ; but would confine what he had to say to the ge
neral question of policy and justice that arose out of the whole.
But admitting that there was any necessity for a commercial
arrangement, how was it to be ascertained which system was
best, when two systems had been brought forward by the very
same person, the one to be laid before the parliament of Ireland
to which it had agreed, and the other for the use of the
English parliament? Those two systems, each invented by
the same person, each promising the same effect, the mutual
and permanent good understanding between the two countries,
and the one professing to be an amendment of the other, were
Unfortunately so completely contradictory as to afford no pos
sibility of finding a single argument in support of the one,
that did not apply with equal force against the other. He
desired to know why the motives for making so complete and
effectual an alteration, as well in the spirit as in the words of
every one of the propositions, had not been communicated to
parliament ? Was the right honourable gentleman encourag
ed to this omission by that confidence which so many of his
friends had declared they placed in him ? a confidence so un
limited and so determined as not to give way to the vast body
of evidence which was offered to that House, and which they
had since confirmed by their oaths at the bar of the House

I42 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [July 22.
of Lords. If confidence, and blind acquiescence in the opi
nion of others was a proper ground of parliamentary conduct,
he thought that confidence ought to be rather placed^ with
those persons, who, from their number, from their knowledge
of the subject, from their interest in it, and from their oaths,
were much better intitled to it than a single individual could
possibly be. It was not his intention, however, at present, to
make any effort to overturn or destroy this confidence in the
minister; for being intirely at a loes to conceive on what it
was founded, so must he be ignorant of the means by which it
could be attacked.
He reprobated the absurdity of the whole proceeding, which
had been conducted on a principle of making each parliament
state what it would be willing to accept, instead of what it
would be satisfied to give. Whereas on the contrary, the
proper mode would have been, for each parliament to have
well weighed what they could give, and then they would have
been competent to determine ; for each knowing, and having
specified what it could give, and the other ascertaining what it
was to receive, it would be easy to strike a balance between
them ; whereas, on the contrary, Ireland was first brought to
make her demands on Great Britain in the eleven propositions
sent from thence, and Great Britain in her turn had made her
demands on Ireland, in the fourth and fifth of the amend
ed propositions. Hence it was, that the whole plan had the
misfortune of being equally detested, both in England and
Ireland. This equal and violent degree of aversion had af
forded room for a weak and pitiful argument that he had
heard used, that the clamour of one country against the reso
lutions, was a strong argument in, favour of them with the
other. After exposing the fallacy and illiberal tendency of
such an argument, he observed, that it was in one respect the
most fortunate argument he had ever known ; for being built
on the unpopularity of the measure, it enjoyed the advantage
of that unpopularity, to the utmost possible extent, and was
equally applicable in both kingdoms, the plan being equally
execrated in both. It was an unhappy omen, that in an ar
rangement proposed as a basis for mutual affection, and a
pledge of mutual advantage, each party to the negotiation had
discovered the strongest motives of discontent, and the strongest
grounds of jealousy and apprehension. A right honourable
gentleman opposite to him had indulged the benevolence of
his own mind, and the luxuriancy of his fancy, with a picture
of a liberal system of commerce, without any restraint what
ever ; but after amusing himself and the House with his the
ories, he at last acknowledged that he had been only amusing
them, for that they were incapable of being applied to the

I785O IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. 143
case of the two kingdoms. He recommended it to the right
honourable gentleman, for the future, rather to employ his in
genuity in discovering what was practicable and useful, in
stead of hunting for systems, which, however beautiful in
theory, were perfectly incapable of being reduced to practice.
When he had said, that he had regretted the giving up the
power of external legislation, as likely to prejudice the general
interests of the empire, and therefore necessary to be replaced,
he desired not to be understood as meaning to seek for it again;
what he meant was, to find some system, that without reclaim
ing the power, or infringing in the smallest degree on the full
emancipation and independence formerly conceded to Ireland,
should afford the means of avoiding that confusion which was
otherwise so much to be dreaded. The right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer had made use of an ex
pression on a former occasion that somewhat surprized him,
as little calculated to allay those apprehensions in Ireland
which he had so wantonly excited. He had said, that it was
by no means his intention to resume that legislative supremacy
over Ireland in so short a time after having relinquished it.
For his part, he did not think any time could be long enough
to justify this country in again possessing herself of those le
gislative rights, which she had so solemnly surrendered ; on the
contrary, when the supremacy of the British parliament was
given up, although he might lament the necessity, and per
haps dread the consequences of such a measure, yet he looked
upon it as an inviolable compact, that could never be receded
from without the most flagrant breach of public faith ; and he
should have thought it equally repugnant to the true sense
of the compact between the two kingdoms to have endeavoured
to get back the power then resigned by a fraudulent negotia
tion hke the present, as by a direct and barefaced act of
power. He adverted to the argument that had been used in vindi
cation of the fourth and fifth resolutions, by comparing the
principles of them with treaties between independent and so
vereign states, arraigning it as weak and inapplicable to the
relative situation in which Great Britain and Ireland were to
stand after the conclusion of this arrangement, Ireland was
to be bound to adopt laws made by Great Britain, of the
nature and tendency of which she was to have no opportunity
of judging, because they were not expressly stipulated at the
time of making the treaty; and therefore she was so far to give
up her legislative discretion and free agency into the hands of
Great Britain ; whereas he defied any gentleman to produce a
single instance of any. prince or state having ever made such a
sacrifice; or if. they had, he would then contend for it, that

I44 IRISH COMMERCIAL PROPOSITIONS. [July 22.
such prince or state was no longer independent, but was be
come a vassal and feud to the other.
But there was another strong objection to the system, inas
much as it contained a principle that essentially intrenched
on the constitution of Ireland in another particular ; this was
the compelling her to set apart, by way of tribute, a certain
sum over which she was hereafter to have no controul, nor any
power of resumption. This he argued in the strongest and most
brilliant manner, shewing how modern liberty, which he con
trasted with that of ancient nations, depended on the limited
duration of pecuniary grants. This limitation afforded an op
portunity to the legislature to withhold supplies until grievances
should be redressed. This check on the executive authority
would be completely done away, if a sum of money ade
quate to the immediate expences of domestic government were
permanently to be granted. This principle of temporary
wrants had been never abandoned by the parliament of Great
Britain, except in a particular instance, where a permanent
grant was necessary to secure the interest of the national debt
to the public creditors ; but he should be glad to know what
any gentleman would think of a minister who should propose
to make the malt and land tax perpetual ; and yet this he de
clared to be an exactly similiar proposal. It was, he granted,
true, that the surplus of the hereditary revenue ought never to
be so considerable as to operate in this manner; but he was
at liberty to argue it so, because, if it were to be contradicted,
then would it follow that this compensation to Great Britain
was nugatory and contemptible.
The right honourable gentleman had recommended firmness
to parliament in the course of the business, and he himself
would join in recommending that temper as well on every other
occasion as the present ; but he was very much afraid the right
' honourable gentleman, in recommending firmness, had unfor
tunately confounded the meaning of that temper, and meant,
instead of firmness, obstinancy and presumption. The dis
contents of the people were argued from, as the cause which
rendered this arrangement necessary. He was willing to ad
mit that there were discontents, but they Were not the fore
runners or cause of these resolutions, they were their effect and
consequence. But how were these discontents to be appeased
by the plan now going forward, or what reason was there for
such a hope ? Was it because that from their first appearance
in each of the different shapes which they had assumed, they
had raised an universal outcry in both kingdoms ? Was it be
cause the benefits to be derived to each nation under them
were looked upon by both as trivial and insignificant in the
extreme ; while, on the contrary, what each was to give, was

1785.3 MR. pitt's MOTION TOR A reform, &c. 145
considered as most valuable, and greatly to be regretted ? He
assured the House, that if, by the exertion of influence and
corruption, the resolutions could be got through the Irish par
liament, so violent was the aversion of the people of that
country to them, that they would unquestionably in a short
time be able to effect their repeal : for the united voice of the
people must at last be obeyed, when their views were sted-
iastly directed to one great object, and regularly enforced by
firm and constitutional exertions.
It was, he concluded, extremely unfortunate and ominous*
that this system, which professed to be a pledge of future
affection between the two countries, should be so odious and
detestable to each of them. He declared, that if it was a
philter, it was, of all he had ever heard of, the most disgust
ing and nauseous ; but still the minister, like a self-sufficient
physician, was determined to pour the draught down the
throats of his patients, assuring them, that however it might
hurt their tastes and violate their inclinations at the time,
yet when swallowed, it would amply compensate their suffer-
ngs, by the comfortable effects they would in the end find
*irom it.
The address was agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a bill
" for finally regulating the intercourse and commerce between
Great Britain and Ireland, on permanent and equitable principles,
for the mutual benefit of both kingdoms." The bill was 'after
wards brought in and read a first time before the end of the
session.

Mr. Pitt's Motion for a Reform in the Representation
of the People in Parliament.
April 18.
THE weight and influence of government had hitherto been
exerted more or less in opposition to the measure of a
reform in parliament; but the minister having pledged himself
, to exercise the whole weight, of his official situation to attain it,
* the present opportunity was looked upon as the most favourable
it could ever experience. The question was accordingly brought
before the House of Commons this day, by Mr. Pitt himself, who
concluded a speech of considerable length with moving, " That
leave be given to bring in a bill to amend the representation of
the people of England in parliament." The plan which he pro
posed for this purpose, was to transfer the right of chusing repre-
voi» ill. L

146 mr. pitt's motion [April 18.
sentatives from thirty-six of such boroughs as had already, or were
falling into decay, to the counties, and to such chief towns and
cities as were at present unrepresented — That a fund should
be provided, for the purpose of giving to the owners and holders
of such boroughs disfranchised, an appreciated compensation for
their property — That the taking this compensation should be a
voluntary act of the proprietor, and if not taken at present, should
be placed out at compound interest, until it became an irresistible
bait to such proprietors. He also meant to extend the right of
voting for knights of the shire to copyholders as well as freeholders.
Such was the outline of Mr. Pitt's system *. The motion was sup-

* The Rev. Mr. Wyvill, chairman of the Yorkshire committee, with
whom Mr. Pitt conferred on the formation of his Plan, gave the following
" Summary Explanation of its Principles," at a public meeting:
" The number of additional representatives to the great districts is pro
posed to be seventy-two; for which the disfranchisement of thirty-six
small boroughs would be wanted. The means by which so considerable
a surrender of the right to return members to parliament is expected to
be obtained, is certainly adequate to the end proposed, and yet in the
view, either of equity or of expedience, perfectly unexceptionable.
" It is proposed that a million of pounds sterling be set apart, as a fund
for compensation to the boroughs which may be disfranchised ; that this
whole sum be divided into thirty-six shares, of which, that each borough
agreeing to surrender its elective right, and applying, by petition from two
thirds of its electors, to parliament for that purpose, be entitled to one
share, to be distributed in due proportion among the several persons in
terested therein, according to their respective equitable claims, by a special
committee of the House of Commons, to be appointed in the same manner
as committees are appointed to try the merits of contested elections ; by
which, if any question should arise, touching the right of voting, or whether
the petitioners are actually two thirds of the voters, such question shall
be decided : that the interest of these thirty-six shares, or several prin
cipal sums of money, be suffered to accumulate and be added to each prin
cipal sum, until, by the decision of such committee, each sum, principal
and interest included, shall be awarded to some small borough on its
voluntary application to be disfranchised. By this provision, the sum ap
propriated, if not large enough at first to induce the decayed boroughs
to surrender their obnoxious rights, would continually increase, and the
temptation to resign them would become ultimately irresistible.
" By the other part of Mr. Pitt's system of reformation, a subsequent
improvement of the borough representation would be ascertained, and
-carried into execution on similar terms; and, moreover, a principle of
future and perpetual improvement in the representation of towns to an
indefinite extent would be established.
" When the representation of the counties and the metropolis shall
have been rectified in the mode and to the extent already described, it is .
proposed that a second sum be set apart to induce such decayed or in- '
considerable boroughs aforesaid, as may still remain, to make a farther
surrender of the right of electing members of parliament, in order that
such right may be transferred to the towns of Birmingham, Manchester,
and other large unrepresented places, whenever such unrepresented places
shall respectively petition parliament for the same — Also, that the elective;.
franchise, exclusively enjoyed by a few inhabitants, members of the cor
porate body in certain towns, may be imparted to the inhabitants, house-
J3

r785-3 FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. I47
ported by Mr. Duncombe, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Fox, Mr. Dun
das, the A ttorney General, Mr. Arden, and Lord Frederick Camp
bell, and opposed by Mr. Powys, Lord North, Lord Mulgrave, Mr.
Burke, Mr. Rolle, and Mr. Young.
Mr. Fox said, that after the many occasions on which he
had expressed what his sentiments were on the subject of a
reform in the representation, he should not consider himself
under any great necessity of troubling the House, had there

holders of such towns, occupying houses assessed to a certain small amount,,
on the voluntary application of such corporate bodies to parliament to
surrender their exclusive privileges.
" The extension of the right of suffrage to many substantial house
holders in the metropolis, the unrepresented towns, and those towns where
the right of representation is at present exclusively enjoyed by a few in
habitants, would be the necessary consequence of the several transfers,
and communications of the elective right proposed in the two parts of thia
system. The admission of copyholders to the right of voting at county
elections, would form a still greater, and a perfectly unexceptionable,
addition to the constituent body; for which, it is understood, that a
separate bill would be provided accordingly. Regulations also for mul
tiplying the places of poll in the counties, for the better ascertainment of
the right of voting, for reducing expence, and preventing bribery at elec
tions, would be included as subsidiary parts of the same system."
" I. Estimate of the number of boroughs that would probably be dis
franchised, and the consequent addition of members that would be made
to the larger districts and to unrepresented towns ; and also the number of
large towns in which the exclusive right of the corporations to elect mem
bers would be imparted to the substantial inhabitants, householders of the
same respectively; provided Mr. Pitt's whole plan should be adopted by
parliament. Boroughs.
" By the first part of his plan would be disfranchised, on volun
tary surrender, in order to reinforce the representation of the counties
and the metropolis - - - - - - - - -36
" By the second part, to give representatives to certain large un
represented towns, at least --------4
" It is impossible to estimate the whole future disfranchisement
under this head : but there are at least four large unrepresented towns
in immediate view, as fit to receive the right of representation; for
which transfer, consequently, the disfranchisement of at least four
boroughs would be wanted.
" Total of disfranchised boroughs ------ 40
" Corporations of arge towns that probably would surrender their
exclusive right of representation ------- io
Members.
" Addition to the metropolis and the counties - - - 7a
" To unrepresented towns - - - - - - -8
" Representation thrown open in ten large towns - - - ao
" Total addition of representatives to the public - - - 100
L 2

148 mr. pitt's motion [April 18
not been extraordinary circumstances attending the intro
duction of the present question. That he had always been
a friend to the principle of this bill was a fact which did not
require to be repeated. Whether the means taken to effect
that principle were such as were most unexceptionable must
remain for future discussion, but could not provoke his op
position to the motion. There remained ample opportu
nities in the stages of the bill to examine and correct it ;
opportunities which in themselves would be the highest ac
quisition. In the review which had been taken of the ques
tion that night, means had been used to implicate the Ame
rican war in the subject now under discussion, by suggesting
that it was supported by the influence of burgage tenures,
and that if they had been withdrawn, that war would have
had a more speedy termination. He acknowledged, that
it would have been in the power of the parliament to have
brought that war to a period had they considered it an
improper one; but the manner in which it must have been
done, would have been such, as he should little expect to
hear recommended from the gentlemen on the other side of
the House. When the delay of a few days in passing the sup
plies had been represented last year as the most heinous pro
ceeding, what would have been the enormity of stopping, not
only the ordnance supply, as was the case, but all the other
supplies also, as would be the case in the event mentioned by
the right honourable gentleman, namely, the active inter
ference of the House of Commons to put a period to a war.
This would be a conduct worthy of a House of Commons, in
certain situations, and would shew them to be sensible of their
due weight and importance in the scale of the constitution,
and that they were not the instruments of a superior power,

II. " Estimate of the augmentation of the constituent body, that would
be effected by the several extensions of the right of suffrage proposed by
Mr. Pitt.
" Householders added in Marybone, Pancras, and other un
represented parts of the metropolis, about - 10,000
" .Unrepresented freeholders in the city of London - - 1,000
"' Copyholders in Middlesex, including the metropolis - 7,000
" Copyholders in other parts of the kingdom ... 6j,ooo
" Householders in Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, and
Leeds, independent of other unrepresented towns, to whom the
right of returning members to parhament may be imparted - 9,000
" Householders in Scarborough, Bury, Bath, &c. - - 6,500
" Unrepresented freeholders of Hullshire, probable about - 500
" Total addition .--...-- 99,000

I785-3 *OR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. I49
kept for no other purpose but to register edicts, and to per
form an annual routine of business.
Much had been said of the merit of dissolving the" cohe
sion of parties which existed in that House. That cohesion
did exist, was a truth in which he took too much pride to
think of denying, and from which this country had derived
too much advantage to be an enemy to : his connections were
formed on liberal and systematic principles, and could not be
dissolved by any regulations, as long as the same union in
sentiment and principles continued to cement them. When an
honourable gentleman said, that parties formed on oiie side of
the House occasioned similar engagements on the other ; he
should have considered, that it equally applied to one as to the
other. But there might be circumstances which induced that
honourable gentleman to look forward with eagerness to the
dissolution of such attachments, if they obliged him to sup
port and defend measures in which his opinions did not cor
respond; if they found him to act one way and think another.
Under such circumstances, it was perfectly natural that he
should pant to be disengaged from such connections, and re
sign the load which seemed so much to oppress him.
To that principle which, by a diminution of the-members
for boroughs, tended to increase the proportion of represen
tatives for counties, he was sincerely a friend. But while he
was thus explicit on the subject of his approbation, it was but
just to mention, that there was another point to which he to
tally objected. With all the respect which he always paid to
a House of Commons, and among the rest to the present
House, he could perceive in it no superlative excellence, no
just superiority, which could justify the suspension of the ope
ration of this bill. To defer for the period of six years any
system of reform, however partial and inadequate, was by no
means complying with the declared wishes of the majority of
the electors of this country ; whose voice, though by no means
to be acknowledged as that to which the House of Commons
must conform, when they were directed by any sudden im
pulse, as the opinions of a moment, should always be obeyed
on points which the experience and consideration of years
had taught them finally to decide upon. The people, not
withstanding all that had been said, had no peculiar obliga
tions to this parliament, for uncommon instances of that pro
priety of conduct, which could warrant so implicit a reliance
in it. No very flattering proofs of extraordinary attention to
the rights of the people had been given by his majesty's pre
sent ministers, in their support of that excellent measure, the
Westminster scrutiny ! And no very splendid testimony of
their prudence ia financial concerns, could be drawn from the
l 3

150 mr. pitt's motion [April 18
commutation tax ! This was a proceeding the hardship of
which they already felt ; and there were some others now in
agitation, which were not likely to turn out much more fa
vourable. These only were the reasons the people could have
for a reliance in the present parliament. He did not, however,
mean to say any thing which could be construed into invective
against them ; he had before been accused of insulting them ;
he did not know that he had done so, but if heat should have
led him at any time to say any thing which could have that ap
pearance, he was exceedingly sorry for it. There was nothing
in any of these circumstances which could impress them on
his memory ; but he had observed, that nothing he ever said
in his wannest moments, had ever drawn forth so much pas
sion and ill temper on the other side of the House as when he
attempted to praise them.
The right honourable gentleman had in this instance, re
ceded from those opinions which on two former occasions he
seemed to maintain, and the alteration which he had now
made, for the purpose of a specific plan, was infinitely for the
worse. It was in vain that he endeavoured to qualify the ob
jections, which the idea of innovation raised in the minds of
some, by diminishing the extent and influence of reformation.
From the earliest periods of our government, the principle of
innovation, but which should more properly be called amend
ment, was neither more nor less than the practice of the
constitution. In every species of government (putting abso
lute monarchy out of the question, as one which ought never to
exist in any country) democracy and aristocracy were always
in a state of gradual improvement, when experience came to
the aid of theory and speculation. In all these, the voice of
the people, when deliberately and generally collected, was
invariably sure to succeed. There were moments of periodi
cal impulse and delusion, in which they should not be grati
fied, but when the views of a people had been formed and
determined on the attainment of g,ny object, they must ulti
mately succeed. On this subject the people of this country
had petitioned from time to time, and their applications were
made to their parliament. For every reason, therefore, they
should be gratified, lest they might be inclined to sue for re
dress in another quarter, where their application would have
every probability of success, from the experience of last yean
Failing in their representatives, they might have recourse to
prerogative. It had been urged, that now, while this business was in
agitation, the people of Birmingham and Manchester had not
petitioned to be represented. This was an argument which
at this time, of all others, could have but little weight ; for

I785-3 FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. 151
while they were alarmed for their trade, and their subsistence,
it was no time for them to set about making improvements in
that constitution, in which they were not certain how long
they might have any share. On the eve of emigration, they
were to look for this in another country, to which their pro
perty and business were soon to be transferred. The different
parts of this plan would certainly, in a committee, be sub
mitted to modification and amendment ; but as it now stood,
admitting only the first principle, every other part, and tha
means taken to attain the principle, were highly objectionable.
He should not hesitate to declare, that he would never agree
to admit the purchasing from a majority of electors the pro
perty of the whole. In this he saw so much injustice, and
so much repugnance to the true spirit of our constitution,
that he could not entertain the idea for one moment. On
the other hand, when the property of a borough was in one
man, there Was no chance of his disposing of it, on the
terms this day mentioned. For when a particular sum was
laid down for a particular purchaser, and interest suffered to
accumulate on that sum, the man must be a fool, who could
be in haste to get possession of it. There was something in
jurious in holding out pecuniary temptations to an English
man to relinquish his' franchise 00 the one hand, and a poli
tical principle which equally forbad it on another. He was
uniformly of an opinion, which, though not a popular one,
he was ready to aver, that the right of governing was not
property, but a trust ; and that whatever was given for con
stitutional purposes, should be resumed, when those purposes,
should no longer be carried into effect.
There were instances of gentlemen offering to sacrifice the
interest they might have in boroughs, to the public good.'
He expressed, however, his surprise, that the present propo
sition was not attended by any liberal offers from those whom
Government had loaded with honours, and whose connection
with the present administration should naturally excite an ex
pectation of something more liberal than a procedure by mere
bargain and sale. He was averse to the idea of confining par
liamentary situations to men of large fortunes, or those
who had distinguished themselves in public professions.
Should this be the case, there was scarcely any man so little
acquainted with the history of parliament, as not to kdow,
that the House would lose half its force. It was not from men
of large and easy fortunes, that attention, vigilance, energy,
and enterprize, were to be expected. Human nature was too
fond of gratification not to be somewhat attentive 'to it when
the means were at hand ; and the b st and most meritorious
public services had always been performed by persons in cir-
L 4

152 REPEAL OF THE COTTON TAX. [April 20.
cumstances removed from opulence. The right honourable
gentleman need not be ashamed to take some of those regula
tions formed in the time of the protector, Oliver Cromwell.
For though fie was a character too odious ever- to be the object
of praise or imitation, his statutes, confirmed afterwards by
his successor, Charles IL, bear strong marks of genius and
ability ; for his political disposition was as good as that of his
successor, and his genius infinitely more powerful. He con
cluded with earnestly entreating all sides of the House to con
cur in the question. He was sorry the honourable gentleman
who spoke before him did not in all the warmth he professed
on the occasion, take the most conciUatory mode of acquiring
strength to it. Instead of reproaching the noble lord (North)
for confining himself to old arguments and observations, he
should rather tremble for the success with which those old ob
servations had been applied by his noble friend, and the con
trary fate which had before attended the novel and^ more
variable stile of the minister.
The question being put on Mr. Pitt's motion, the House di
vided : Tellers. Tellers.
v„ „ . 5 Mr. Eliot 1 . „ *. „„ f Mr. Eden 1 „
Yeas ] Mr. R. Smith j '74— Noes jMf North J 248.
So it passed in the negative.

Repeal of the Cotton Tax.

April 20.
^TPHE House having resolved itself into a committee on the peti-
¦*- tions against the tax imposed last year on cottons, cotton stuffs,
&c. Mr. Pitt moved for leave " to bring in a bill to explain and
amend an act passed in the twenty-fourth year of the reign of his
present majesty, for imposing a duty by excise on certain cotton
manufactures, and to repeal so much of the said bill as imposed a
duty on plain cottons and fustians."
* Mr. Fox rose, he said, with great satisfaction to second
the motion, concurring as he did completely in the re
sult of the right honourable gentleman's argument. He
thought it highly necessary to declare, that he voted for
the motion on a very different ground from that stated

1 785. } repeal of the cotton tax. 153
by the right honourable gentleman in the commencement
of his speech. He acceded to the motion, not because he
thought the manufacturers of Manchester had either exag
gerated facts, or failed in making out their case, but because
they had so far made out their case as to satisfy his mirid, that
,the allegations stated in their petition had been completely
proved at the bar of the House ; and if the right honourable
gentleman would give himself the trouble to recollect the evi
dence he had heard, and would ground such fair and just
computations upon the price of labour, and upon the amount
of the money paid by the manufacturers for duty, as each
warranted, he believed he would find himself a good deal
mistaken in the computations that he had made, and that the
revenue to be given up and abandoned, was by no means so
large as he had imagined, nor, in fact, larger than the sum the
manufacturers themselves had stated it to be in evidence.
Mr. Fox declared the calculations of Mr. Pitt to be erroneous,
. and stated in what he disagreed with him. He had not a
doubt that the manufacturers were strictly warranted in every
thing that they had alleged in their petition, and asserted in evi
dence ; and that the revenue to be relinquished was certainly
a trifle, compared with the injury and embarrassment so capital
a manufacture would have sustained, had it not been taken
off. He desired not to be ranked in the number of those who
held that manufactures, as manufactures, were improper ob
jects of taxation; he never had entertained such an opi
nion ; on the contrary, he held that articles of manufacture
were in many cases a fair and just object of taxation ; in some
undoubtedly they were not, and especially where the imposi
tion of a tax would so far harrass the manufacturers as to
take considerably more money from them than the revenue
received, and check the progress of a manufacture, and prove
vexatious and oppressive to that degree, that it would affect
its prosperity, and endanger its existence. This he verily be
lieved, notwithstanding all that the right honourable gentle
man had said, would have proved to be the case with the
fustian manufacture, had not the duty been repealed. He
agreed, therefore, perfectly with the right honourable gentle
man in his idea of repealing that part of the tax of the last
year ; he agreed with him also in retaining the part of the tax
that remained on printed cottons, &c. He was not of opinion
that any sufficient reason had been made out to shew that
there was real danger to be dreaded from the continuance of
the tax on printed cottons, &c., he was therefore for its re
maining. He must however deprecate a principle that the
right honourable gentleman had laid down in the latter part
of his speech as a fit ground upon which any tax might be

154 repeal op the cotton tax. [April 20.
abandoned; and that was, on account of popular clamour,
and prejudices which were founded in error. To such a prin
ciple he never would accede, nor ought that House to make
it the ground of their proceedings; because if it were once
known that a great degree of popular clamour and prejudice,
no matter how ill founded, was a sufficient inducement for that
House to give their consent to the repeal of any tax, the re
venue would be in perpetual danger ; and that sinking fund,
of which the right honourable gentleman was so fond of in
troducing the mention in almost every debate, and to which
they all looked forward with the most anxious expectation,
would be only a matter to be talked of, and never to be
brought into existence. It was by no means wise in any mi
nister to declare, that he gave up that to prejudice and cla
mour, which he refused to reason and to fact ; he did there
fore mOst earnestly deprecate the principle, and deny that it
was the ground on which he seconded the motion. The right
honourable gentleman had thought fit to introduce allusions to
what he had said in a former debate, relative to the Irish pro
positions, although no man was more ready than the right ho
nourable gentleman to reprobate others for doing so disorderly
a thing as to refer to what had passed in prior debates. The
right honourable gentleman would recollect, that the subject
of India and a certain India bill, had been repeatedly alluded
to by himself and his friends in debates, where the question
was infinitely more foreign, than the consequence the passing
of the Irish propositions was likely to have upon the people
of England, was foreign to the question of reforming the state
of the representation in parliament. Besides, in that very de
bate, the right honourable gentleman had himself introduced
the mention of the American war, and Other topics equally
foreign from the subject at that time under consideration.
But the right honourable gentleman had laid down two dif
ferent rules of conduct, the one for himself and friends to act
upon, the other to be applied to those who took part against
him. With regard to how far the present subject had a re
ference to the Irish propositions, he made no scruple to say
he thought it had ; because undoubtedly, if the tax on fustians
had continued, and the Irish propositions passed, the manu
facturers would be affected very materially, not indeed in their
home consumption, but in their export trade ; since the fifth
proposition, that of the countervailing duties, would only
make it necessary for the Irish to lay on a duty equal to what
the revenue received; whereas the manufacturers paying
more than the revenue received, in consequence the Irish
and they would not export on equal terms. Having stated
this, Mr. Fox took notice of what Mr. Pijt had said of bis ex-

T785-3 state of the public revenue, 155
pectation to be vilified and calumniated for the manner in
which he had come forward to repeal the tax. The right ho
nourable gentleman had forgot, he said, that the conduct of
others had been full as much vilified and calumniated as his
own, and, he was satisfied, with as little reason and as little
justice. There was no ground for censure in honestly ac
knowledging an error, and desiring to retract it ; there might
be ground for question, and for something not very like praise,
in declaring that a sacrifice was made to prejudice, and to
prejudice merely.

T:

State of the Public Revenue.
April 29.
HE order of the day being read,

Mr. Fox rose to make his promised motion on the state of
the public revenue, and to call the attention of the House to
the calculations and statements which had been recently made
by the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer. He
prefaced his motion with saying, that whatever differences
there might be in that House upon questions of a political
nature, and in speculative opinions, there was no difference
with respect to the propriety and necessity of supporting the
public credit. The House had in all administrations been
uniform in maintaining the credit which had been so useful
to us in our difficulties, and in countenancing every measure
which tended to the advancement of our revenue, or the secu
rity of the national creditor. It would not, therefore, be im
puted to him, that he rose this day to agitate the House on
the subject from motives of faction, or for the purpose of ex
citing alarm in the country. In what he should say, he would
give occasion for no such charge. It was his first and most
earnest desire to see the revenues of this country rendered so
indubitably equal to our necessities, that neither cavil nor
ingenuity should be able to excite terrors in the breasts of
those who had lent their money on the faith of government ;
and he did not believe there was an individual in the House
who entertained different sentiments.
There had been, he said, a good deal of conversation at
different times on the subject of the sinking fund, and on the
propriety of applying it to the necessities of the state. With-

I5<5 STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. [April 29.
out entering at all into the question, whether it was wise in all
possible cases so to apply it; or whether the public might not
be more benefited by its appropriation occasionally to other
purposes, this much was certain, that though it had been
applied occasionally to make up for the year the deficiencies
of any tax which might have failed of producing what it was
calculated to produce, or to answer any sudden and unfore
seen emergency, it never was yet taken and applied to the per
manent payment of the annuity of any sum which we had
had occasion to borrow. To this length we never yet had gone ;
the wisdom of the House had always provided by taxes a per
manent fund for the payment of the national creditor ; and
the produce of the sinking fund was only held out as an addi
tional security to them, that in case those taxes should fail,
their annuities would still be regukfrly paid. The right ho
nourable gentleman at the head of the finances, had said
some days ago, that by the late production of the taxes we had
reason to hope that the revenues of this country would annu
ally produce the sum of fifteen millions and a half, which con
stantly would leave a surplus of one million to be applied to
the extinction of the national debt. He would not be confix
dent in the precise words which the right honourable gentle
man had made use of in stating this fact ; but this was the
result^ and this his friends had adopted, with the most san
guine disposition.
He was by no means pleased that the state which he should
give of the public accounts did not warrant the conclusion
which the right honourable gentleman had drawn from them.
He by no means wished that his state of the public revenue
should turn out to be the true state, in contradiction to that
of the right honourable gentleman ; but the House must not
argue, that because he went into these discussions for the pur
pose of shewing them that the conclusions which had been
drawn from them' were not well founded, that therefore he
was anxious to affect the public credit, and to lower the state
of the funds. He was actuated by no such motive. It was
his opinion, that the true and only foundation on which the
credit of this country could be maintained, was in the publicity
and clearness of our accounts ; it was in the evident determina
tion of parliament at all times to look their situation in the
face, and neither to deceive themselves, nor to deceive others
with fallacious statements which could only serve interested
purposes for a moment, while they might produce lasting and
dreadful consequences to the country. Utterly to despond
was as injurious as to be too sanguine. Despondency would
depress the genius, enterprise, and energy of the country:
and again, to be too sanguine in our expectations, would pre-

I785O STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. 157
vent us from taking those measures which might be necessary
to our deliverance. Apprehending that the state of our
finances was very different from that which the right honour
able gentleman had held out, it was his opinion, that though
our circumstances were bad, they gave no reason for despon
dency ; they were yet to be retrieved ; but they were only to
be retrieved by our chearfully submitting to new and to heavy
burdens. This, in the present situation of the country, was
undoubtedly a melancholy prospect; but he had too much
confidence in the good sense of the people, and in the wisdom
of parliament, to believe, that when the necessity was made
apparent for new burdens, the one would either hesitate to
impose, or the other to bear them.
He was afraid, that in what he should have to state to the
House, he should make the necessity for new burdens too ap
parent. The right honourable gentleman had laid before the
House a paper to shew the comparative produce of the taxes
of the quarter ending the 5 th of April, 1784, and of the quar
ter ending the 5th of April, 1785. From the amount of the
latter he had argued, that the produce of all the taxes for the
year would leave a surplus of one million above the payment
of all the annuities and establishments of the year. It had al
ready been stated to the House, that to draw this conclusion
from this particular quarter would be fallacious, for that the
quarter consisted of eleven days more than either of the other
three. The quarter in general was ninety-one days and a
fraction ; but this quarter was one hundred and two days in
length. The amount of the taxes for this long quarter was, ¦
by the account produced 3,066,000/. which multiplied by
four, undoubtedly made the produce of the taxes for the
whole year 12,260,000/. He avoided fractions to make the
matter more readily intelligible. The eleven days, however,
which were to be taken from this quarter made the amount
very different. On an average the amount of the taxes was
about 30,000/. per day, which for the eleven days amounted
to 330,000/. and this multiplied by four, made the sum of
1,300,000/. which was to be taken from the calculation of the
right honourable gentleman. This, therefore, reduced the
annual produce of the permanent annuities to 11,000,000/,
Add to this 2,500,000/. for the amount of the land and malt,
and the whole was only thirteen millions and a half, which
was two millions short of the calculation of the right ho
nourable gentleman.
It was not a fair nor a true way of stating the taxes, by
taking the amount of a quarter as a fourth of the year. The
quarters sometimes varied exceedingly ; and arguing in this
way, from this particular quarter, was liable to much fallacy.

IC 8 ST ATI. OP THE PUBLIC REVENUE. [April 20.
He had it not in his power to argue by comparisons of all the
quarters for any given number of years; but bavins an ac
count in his hand of the amount of the customs for eleven
years, he did not think it would be unfair to argue by analogy
from them, and to shew how treacherous it would be to decide
on the amount of the customs for a year by any one quarter.
In comparing the several years, he would naturally pas- over
the last year, a? by the postponement of the customs due by
the East India Company, that year could not be set in com
parison so as to give any fair estimate of the public revenue.
The total of the customs for the quarter ending the 5th of
April last, was 771.000/. To argue that this was a proof
that the other three quarters would be equally productive,
he was afraid would be very fallacious, and would not be
borne out by the experience of former year;. It was a feet,
that whenever the spring quarter wa- high, the s iimmer quar
ters fell off, and whenever it was low, the summer quarters
made up for the deficiencies. The years 1778 and i"o pre
sented instances like the present year of high spring quarters :
in the one, the customs amounted to 708,000/. and in the
other to 715.0C0/, and yet it so happened that these two years
were the lowest of all the eleven years, for which the account
on the table was made up. Was it, therefore, reasonable to
infer from the high amount of the customs in this quarter,
that the amount 01 the year would be equally or proportion-
ably high ?
But in this particular quarter on which the right honour
able gentleman had calculated in ~o sanguine a manner, there
were several articles which struck Lira in a verv forcible
manner as bein^ charged too high. East India goods, for
instance, were stated in this quarter to have produced 86,000/.,
a sum so much above what they had ever produced in a for
mer quarter, mat he knew not how to take that as a fourth
of the produce of this article for the year. The average pro
duce of this article for the last eleven years was but 120.000/.
a year; and the quarter enduig the rth of April 178^, had
produced but 10,000/. On such experience, it was impossi
ble that he could set down this article at 340,000/. for the
year. There must have been in the payments made this
quarter, some arrearages paid up, or some extraordinary cir
cumstances which would not enter into the other quarters,
and which therefore it would be unfair to calculate upon in
this statement.
Another article struck him as curious. The dutv of eigh
teen and a half per cent on muslins was stated to produce
86,ooo7. in this quarter: this was as muchas the duty had
producer for the whole of the last year. The excise duties

1785.3 STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. 1 59
which were paid into the exchequer at the rate of 350,000/.
per week made another very material inaccuracy in this ac
count ; for, by the addition of the eleven days in this quarter,
the excise duties were paid for fifteen weeks. So that if this
was to be taken as a fourth of the year, the year must consist
of sixty weeks instead of fifty-two.
The stamp duties which had been imposed by his noble
friend, Lord John Cavendish, were stated to have produced
in this quarter 96,000/., a sum which very much astonished,
and which, if it were true, would very much please him.
He was afraid, however, there was no truth in this state
ment. The whole produce of these duties, which undoubtedly
had fallen short of their calculation, had never yet amounted
to much above 100,000/. a year; to state, therefore, that
they had produced 96,000/. in one quarter, was a thing for
which he could not account, however he might wish that the
fact were so. The additional stamps which had been laid
since that time, were stated also at 96,000/. This would give
on each of these articles an annual produce of 380,000/.;
and he called upon gentlemen to say, whether they expected
such a sum, or any thing like it, from these duties ? Besides
this, there was to be mentioned other charges, which were
evidently inaccurate — the deduction (from salaries, the com
position of the bank for the whole of the stamp duties on
notes was. 12,000/. a year, and yet in this quarter 6000/. of
that sum was taken, and which therefore could not be multi
plied by four.
It was impossible that he could speak on these points with
the authority of the right honourable gentleman, because he
had not the information. He conceived these things to be
curious and unaccountable, and he trusted that the right ho
nourable gentleman would explain them to the House, in
support of the reasoning and conclusions which he had drawn
from this quarter. These articles, which he had enumerated,
would amount, in the calculation for the whole of the year,
to upwards of 150,000/. but he understood the right ho
nourable gentleman had said, in his statement of this quar
ter, that there was one sum of 125,000/. to be deducted, and
that there was 100,000/. to arise in another quarter, which
was not in this. Not knowing precisely in the present stage
what were the articles on which the right honourable gentle
man had said that these deductions were to be made, he would
not insist so much on the particular objections as on the great
objection to the eleven days in this quarter which were not in
the others ; and upon this he still contended, there was a de
duction to be made of 1,300,000/. from the calculation for
the year.

l6o STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. [April 21?.
Another way had been taken in stating this business. In
stead of multiplying this quarter by four, the two winter
quarters were taken together and multiplied by two. He con-
ceived this also to be fallacious, though not perhaps so falla
cious as the other. He must reason on this also from the
account of the customs on the table. In that account he
found that the average of ten years was about 74,000/. in
favour of the summer quarters ; and-here it was to be observedj
that taking it in this way, there was a difference of five days
in the calculation. The winter quarters included from the
ioth of October to the 5th of April; but one thing particu
larly deserved the notice of the House, and that was, that
by the account of the customs on the table, it appeared, that
whenever the spring quarter exceeded 700,000/. the summer
quarters were proportionably low. But admitting this mode
of stating the account, and multiplying the two last quarters
by two, to give the probable production of the present year,
the amount would be but 11,400,000/. which would still leave
a deficiency of 1,650,000/. of the fifteen millions and a half
stated by the right honourable gentleman.
He understood the right honourable gentleman had argued
from this account in another way. He had compared this
spring quarter with the spring quarter of last year ; he consi
dered this as still more fallacious ; he had compared it with the
worst spring quarter for the last ten years. The quarter of
last year was bad for the reasons he had stated, namely, the
postponement of the East India duties : but he begged gen
tlemen again to look at the account in their hands of the
customs ; they would find, that though the spring quarter of
1784 was the worst of the whole ten years, yet the year 1784
was the best but one of all that period. Nothing could be more
erroneous than to argue, that from the goodness of the spring
quarter the whole year was to be estimated. It so happened,
that whenever the spring quarter was highest, the whole year
was low: for instance, the spring quarter of 1779 was
715,000/. The spring quarter of 1784 was 385,000/. ^Yet
the whole of the year 1779 produced but 2,200,000/., while
1784 produced 2,600,000/. It was in vain, therefore, to ar
gue from this mode of statement. But he said, that in giving
the right honourable gentleman every thing he demanded, in
stating the account with all the possible advantages which
could be enumerated, and omitting all the objections which
he had made, by laying the two winter quarters together,
and even permitting him to say that the summer quarters
would be better, granting that they would be better as six is to
five, yet in this way, the whole amount of the permanent re
venues, and of the land and malt, would be but 14,233,000/.

17850 STATE OP THE PUBLIC REVENUE. l6l
which would be a sum of 300,000/. short of what he had an
nually to pay, and 1,300,000/. short of the statement of the
right honourable gentleman, by which there was to be a sur
plus of 1,000,000/. a year for a sinking fund.
If, therefore, it was the determination of that House to meet
the situation of the country fairly ; if they intended, with the
honesty and determination that became them, to put the
finances of the country beyond the reach of cavil, give secu
rity to the creditor, and manifest to the whole world their
disposition to be strictly honest, they must lay additional
burdens on the people to the amount of 1,300,000/. a year.
The alternative was undoubtedly unpleasant; but no man
could hesitate one moment in making his choice. The alter
native was, that in the present moment, when the people of
this country were labouring under taxes that were almost in
supportable, they should impose new and heavy burdens on
them to the amount of 1,300,000/. a year; or that the im
mense load of this country should be suffered to continue
for ever ; by which, when some new struggle might occasion
extraordinary calls, we must be brought to that dreadful state
which no considerate man could look at without horror — a
national bankruptcy. Surely, in this view of the matter, no
man would hesitate in his choice : he who could cherish in
his bosom for one moment the idea of embracing the one side
of the alternative, must have a head incapable of judging: a
national bankruptcy would be national ruin ; and the head of
that man must be strangely dull, or his heart inhuman, who
eould harbour such a notion. It was not to be thought of;
and yet he knew that strange, mad, and atrocious schemes
had been engendered in the brains of some men to this endj
but no practical statesman had ever thought of them, no wise
man had ever countenanced them, and no good man, he
trusted, would ever adopt them. The right- honourable gen
tleman had- properly stated to the House, that it was only by
the gradual diminution of the debt that we could retrieve
our affairs. This was his belief; and he was sincerely of
opinion, that by chearfully submitting now to an increase of
burdens, our affairs might not only be retrieved, but we might
be brought to a more prosperous condition than we had ever
enjoyed. It might be said, let us wait another year before we lay any
more taxes on the people. Let us see what the result of our
wishes are. This, he said, was truly impolitic ; the loss of a
year of peace was a material loss. If the sum was actually
not wanted ; if there should at this time be a sinking funcf,
the increase of that fund would be a blessing, and the year
of peace ought not to be lost, though hejanew it was the opi-
VOL. III. M

yy

162" STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. [April 29.
nion of some men, that war was the proper time for the dimi
nution of the national debt. Perhaps it might be said, that
he pushed ministers to do this, in order to make them unpo
pular, because it must be an unpopular measure to lay addi
tional burdens to so large an amount. If such should be the
imputation thrown on gentlemen who rose in that House to
deliver their opinions on subjects of revenue, it would be wise
for them to absent themselves whenever such subjects were
mentioned; but no such imputation could with justice be.
brought against those who fairly offered to share in the unpo
pularity by assisting the ministers in the task.
He concluded with saying, that it was his intention to have
moved, from the grounds which he had stated, that it appeared
to the House, that the permanent revenues of the country
amounted only to between eleven and twelve millions ; but
not being able to state the precise amount, he did not think
that such a motion would have the accuracy which the House
should require; and therefore he proposed to move "That
a committee be appointed to enquire into, and state to this
House, the annual net produce, from the 5th of April 1775
to the 5th of April 1785, of the several taxes now subsisting,
which were granted previous to the 5th day of January 1776,
distinguishing each year, together with the totals, and stating
also the average produce of each tax, and of the totals ; and
also, the produce of the several taxes granted since the 5th
day of January 1776, for one year, ending the 5th of April
1785 ; and also, the amount of the public debts as they stoocf
at the receipt of his majesty's exchequer, on the 5th day of
April 1785, with the annual interest and other charges payable
thereon ; and also, the amount of the exchequer bills, navy
bills, ordnance debentures, and other unfunded debts ; and to
report the said accounts, \vith their observations thereupon,
to the House."
The motion was seconded by Mr. Eden. Mr. Pitt entered into
a detailed review of Mr. Fox's speech, and congratulated him on
his having become a proselyte to the measure of a sinking fund ;
but still there were some of his collateral doctrines on the subject,
in which he could not but differ with him in opinion. He denied
that it was contrary to the proper intent of a sinking fund ever to
apply any part of it to any other purpose, except the diminution
of the debt ; not even to the payment of the interest ; for, on the
contrary, it had been the constant practice of all financiers so to
apply it, if necessary, still making up the deficiency arising from
such application by other taxes ; and, indeed, the sinking fund
was at all times considered not only as a resource for paying off
the debt, but was also uniformly understood to be a collateral
security to the public creditors. He paid some ironical compli-
10

I785O STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. 163
ments to Mr. Fox for his zeal on the subject ; a zeal, however,
which, like that of all new converts, was more ardent than judi
cious ; for in his great anxiety that a sinking fund should be
established, he was desirous immediately to proceed to the im
position of taxes for that purpose, without being satisfied to wait a
few months longer to see whether those now in being would not be
found sufficient. He returned the right honourable gentleman, his
thanks for his readiness to ease him of the most disagreeable part
of his duty, that of proposing new taxes, and hoped the same dis
position would continue, if 'it should be found, contrary to his
present expectations, that they were necessary ; for he should be
more happy to see all that brilliancy of eloquence, and all that
force of argument, exerted on an occasion when taxes were to be
laid on, than at a time when no such thing was in agitation, or at
all requisite. But though the arguments of the right honourable
gentleman were, on this occasion, useless and inapplicable, he
should not forget them, but would treasure them up in his memory
for any future use to which they might be turned, when the sub
ject of taxation should come forward. And he hoped the House
would remember, that the right honourable gentleman, by his
extreme forwardness on the present day to lay new burdens on the
public, had pledged himself to support whatever measure of finance
should from any future disappointments be found necessary.
Mr. Fox rose to reply. He began with observing, that the
right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer had thought
proper to bestow the name of a proselyte upon him. He
desired to know at what period of his political\life it was that
he had ever held any other than one and the same language, '
respecting the necessity of keeping up the sinking fund, so
as to be able to apply a certain sum unalienably towards the
discharge of the national debt, in time of peace. , At all
times, and on all occasions, when questions of finance were
agitated, had he not contended, that unless this were done, the
nation would be inevitably ruined ? How happened it, then,
that the right honourable gentleman had discovered that it
was a new doctrine in his mouth ? With regard to his having
declared, that the surplus of the sinking fund ought never
to be applied towards the annual establishments, or in dis
charge of the public annuity, he had said directly the reverse ;
having declared, that it was, in his opinion, right so to apply
it, when a necessity arose, as Sir Robert Walpole and all his
successors had occasionally applied it ; but he had at the same
time said, that it ought not to be suffered to remain as a fund
appropriated to those puiposes generally ; on the contrary, its
great object, namely, the applying it in diminution of the
public debt, ought ever to be held in view. Mr. Fox repro
bated Mr. Pitt's argument as in the highest degree fallacious
and illusory. The right honourable gentleman uniformly
M 2

164 STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. [April 29.
avoided and flew from any computation grounded on the
average of a number of years and upon experience — to resort
to what ? — a computation built upon the amount of the pro
duce of the two last quarters, an amount exceeding any that
had gone before for obvious reasons, joined to the amount of
two summer quarters, which accidentally had been the greatest
of any two summer quarters to be instanced. This was, he
said, of all weak modes of reasoning, the weakest, It was
not merely trusting to visionary speculation, but to that sort
of speculation most iliable to failure. With regard even to
the confidence the right honourable gentleman had placed in
his conjectures, in consequence of his boasted quarter ending
April 5, 1785, he might find his conjectures deceive him ; since
the only quarter's produce that had greatly exceeded others,
was a quarter in the year 1779, the remaining quarters of
which failed beyond all example. Mr. Fox defended Lord
John Cavendish's budget, and said he should not have ima
gined the present administration would have imputed blame
to it, since they could not have forgotten, that Lord John had
been obliged to open his budget within three weeks after he
had kissed his majesty's hand as chancellor of the exchequer,
and that he succeeded the right honourable gentleman in that
office, who had remained in it six weeks perfectly inactive,
and without doing one thing for the public .in point of
finance. Had Lord John continued another year chancellor
of the exchequer, undoubtedly he would have been prepared
with new taxes, to have suppfied the deficiencies of his own
taxes, and with some plan for establishing a fund to be
applied immediately in diminution of the national debt. But
what had been the right honourable gentleman's conduct ?
Who, that had last year seen him assume an air of the utmost
personal importance and gravity, and heard him ardently
talk of his determination to encounter loss of popularity,
public clamour, and public odium, rather than not effect so
necessary a purpose as applying a fund towards the imme
diate diminution of the national debt, would have imagined
that he would this year have come forward with a series of
computations, founded in demonstrable fallacy and error, in
order to ground a pretence for putting off the great work till
another session ? What pledge had the House that he would
begin upon it even next session ? Indeed, his words were suf
ficiently big with promises, but would a minister's promise
insure a minister's performance ? Last year he gave a verbal
pledge, and bound himself by words as fast as words could
bind him. Master as he was of words, he defied the right
honourable gentleman to invent expressions more binding or
more strong than those he had used last session ; and yet the

I785O STATE OF THE PUBLIC REVENUE. 165
House had witnessed what security his verbal pledge had
proved ! Thus might he go on promising and promising
ad infinitum, and a work that ought to have been begun before,
and that would not admit of longer delay, be deferred till we
found ourselves again involved in a war ; and he was not yet
brought over to the opinion that war was the fittest. season for
the discharge of the national debt.
Mr. Fox took notice of Mr. Pitt's sneer at his having ar
gued in support of the imposition of new taxes on an occasion,
where no taxes were necessary to be imposed. In answer to
this, he said, he conceived the question of the day would de
cide whether new taxes were necessary or not ; and therefore
it was, of all others, the fittest moment for pressing the
argument. Were there no doubt in the case, and were jt
the decided opinion of that House that taxes ought to be laid,
any argument of his in support of such an idea, would un
doubtedly be superfluous; it could only be of use where
the question was in contest. Mr. Fox, in answer to Mr. Pitt's
allusion to the India bill, said, the very conduct that the
right honourable gentleman had at that time imputed to him,
he was now practising himself, — that of holding out fallacious
accounts and false statements of the revenue, to mislead and
delude the public. With regard to India, did any man now
believe, that the accounts presented to that Jlouse by the
directors of the East India company last year, and upon which
they had proceeded to pass a bill into a law, were not falla
cious ? After what he had lately seen from Bengal, after
what the learned gentleman next him (Mr. Dundas) knew
of the affairs of the company in India, did the right honour
able gentleman think the accounts of the last year were to be
relied on ? He was persuaded he did not. With regard to
the putting the office of chancellor of the exchequer in com
mission, he had no such intention, nor if he had, should he
have thought of putting the chancellor of the exchequer at
the head of that commission, any more than he should have
thought of putting the office of master general of the ordnance
in commission, and have placed him at the head of a board
of commissioners appointed to controul the executive branch of
his own department. The sort of committee he wished to
have instituted, might, he said, prove essentially serviceable,
by investigating facts, and reporting them to the House,
whence they would have the way cleared, and be enabled to
proceed with certainty. To a committee of the House, be it
composed of whom it would, he was ready to trust that or
any other business, because he was convinced by the conduct
of a committee last year, that however gentlemen, who were
chosen in a committee, might generally differ in their politi-
M 3

1 66 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Jan. 14.
cal sentiments, they Would always form such a report as would
do them honour, and would prove of essential benefit to the
public, by affording the House a species of useful and authen
tic information they could not otherwise obtain.
The motion was negatived without a division.

Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of
the Session.
January 24. 1786.
THE King opened the session with the following speech to both
Houses :
" My lords and gentlemen ; since I last met you in parliament,
the disputes which appeared to threaten an interruption to the
tranquillity of Europe have been brought to an amicable conclu
sion ; and I continue to receive from foreign powers the strongest
assurances of their friendly disposition towards this country 
At home, my subjects experience the growing blessings of peace
in the extension of trade, the improvement of the revenue, and the
increase of the public credit of the nation. — For the farther ad
vancement of those important objects, I rely on the continuance of
that zeal and industry which you manifested in the last session of
parliament. — The resolutions which you laid before me as the basis
of an adjustment of the commercial intercourse between Great
Britain and Ireland, have been, by my directions, communicated to
the parliament of that kingdom ; but no effectual step has hitherto
been taken thereupon, which can enable you to make any further
progress in that salutary work.
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons; I have ordered the es
timates for the present year to be laid before you : it is my earnest
wish to enforce economy in every department ; and you will, I am
persuaded, be equally ready to make such provision as may be ne
cessary for the public service, and particularly for the maintaining
our naval strength on the most secure and respectable footing.
Above all, let me recommend to you the establishment of a fixed
plan for the reduction of the national debt. The flourishing state
of the revenue will, I trust, enable you to effect this important
measure with little addition to the public burdens.
" My lords and gentlemen ; the vigour and resources of the
country, so fully manifested in its present situation, will encourage
you in continuing to give your utmost attention to every object of
national concern ; particularly to the consideration of such mea
sures as may be necessary, in order to give farther security to the
revenue, and to promote and extend as far as possible the trade
and general industry of my subjects."

17'86.3 address on the king's speech. 167
An address in the usual form being moved by Mr. Smyth, the
member for Pontefract, and seconded by Mr. Addington, the Earl
of Surrey moved by way of amendment to omit that part of the
proposed address which related to the commercial negociations
jvitn Ireland. After which,
Mr. Fox rose, and declared, that of all the speeches from
the throne which he had ever remembered to have heard de
livered at the opening of a session of parliament, of all the
speeches of that kind which he had ever heard of by relation,
or read of in history, he did not recollect to have met with an
instance of one so cautiously worded, or that afforded such
little ground for objection of any kind. He rose, therefore, to
speak to what was out of it, rather than what was in it ; to that
which perhaps ought to have been there, rather than to what
was there. The propriety of a minister's contenting himself
with addressing a British parliament from the throne, with ge
neral ideas of the political situation of a country, instead of
specifically adverting to facts and circumstances, which deeply
and materially concerned its first and dearest interests, rela
tively considered with those of other states, would be for
others to judge and to decide upon. It was enough for him
to see, that there were so many matters pending, and so much
had been lately done by foreign powers, the consequences of
which might more or less critically affect Great Britain in pro
portion to the measures that his majesty's ministers had pur
sued; and, indeed, upon the ground of these transactions,
he had looked for something 'more than vague assurances of
the tranquillity of Europe, and had expected his majesty's
speech would have given thp.t House a variety of lights upon
a variety of great and important subjects, intimately connected
with the future prosperity or ill fortune of the empire ; upon
all of which the speech left the House in utter and impenetra
ble darkness.
With regard to the extension of trade, the increase of the
public credit of the nation, and the growing surplus of the
revenue, those were circumstances in which every man must
rejoice ; and at which no party, no political faction, no set of
persons of any name and description whatever could suppress
their exultation, because they went to prove, what must be to
all ranks of men and all political parties, a matter of solid sa
tisfaction and unrestrained triumph, the returning vigour of
our resources. But, were these matters of surprise, were these
circumstances to cause astonishment? Undoubtedly they were
not. Almost every man knew there would be some surplus ;
almost every man expected it ; they only differed about the
amount of that surplus, one gentleman alone excepted, who
M 4

168 address on the king's speech. [Jan. 24.
had certainly contended, and had endeavoured to prove, that
there would be no surplus ; but that gentleman had probably
been since convinced of his error, had retracted it, and as every
man of candour would do, he had no doubt he was ready
publicly to acknowledge that retractation. That there would
be some surplus, he had always admitted ; what that surplus
Was, he would not then attempt to enter into the discussion of.
Indeed, it was not possible till he knew it, till he had it stated
to him, and its amount was fairly before him, and capable of ar
gument and of investigation. He would not assert to what the
signs of returning vigour were ascribable ; that might be matter
of much useless difference of opinion ; several of them might
be owing to the success of some of the measures of the present
administration ; he would not be so uncandid as to deny that
they were : but more, far more, he beheved, were owing to the
failure of others of their measures, which, had they succeeded,
must have been attended with consequences, the most fatal to
the revenue and to the national credit and prosperity, that
could possibly be imagined. Nothing but the alann and dis
gust created by the agitation of those bad measures could have
so long kept back the returning trade of the country, the na
tural consequence of peace, which ever had been the case at
the end of every war before the last. That alarm and dis
gust had been done away, in a great degree, by the failure of
the measures to which he alluded, and the tide of trade was
now returning to its old and natural channel.
For his part, he certainly should not object to the ad
dress in general, though he might probably vote with his
noble friend for his amendment ; but there were two matters of
considerable importance, which, in one instance, arose out
of the wording of the speech, in its first paragraph, and in
another, was mentioned in a subsequent part it, upon both
of which he must say a few words, and expect to receive
some answer : whether satisfactory or not the event would prove.
What he meant was, to inquire what sort of construction,
whether a broad or narrow one was to be put upon that part
of the speech which related to the tranquillity of Europe, and
stated, that his majesty continued to receive the strongest as
surances from foreign powers of their friendly disposition to
wards this country. He wished also to know, what was
meant by the manner in which the resolutions relative to an
intended adjustment of a commercial intercourse with Ireland
was mentioned, and whether they were to understand, by be
ing told from the throne, that they were incapable of making
any farther progress in the work, that the resolutions were
completely abandoned and given up, or that they were to be
revived, and endeavoured to be carried into effect at any

1786.3 address on the king's speech. 169
future period of time ? On both these points it was exceedingly
material that such information should be. given, that each
might be clearly and precisely understood.
With regard to the first, if the mention of the tranquillity
of Europe alluded only to the end that had been put to the
threatened war between the emperor and the United States of
Holland, in that case the construction was too narrow, and
his majesty's ministers greatly undervalued the information
of that House, and not of that House only, but of every
man who read or attended to the political transactions of
Europe, and who was at all aware of what passed on the
continent, the different treaties lately entered into by dif
ferent foreign powers, and the conduct which ought to have
been pursued with a view to counteract the operation of those
treaties and transactions, as far as it was likely to prove
prejudicial to the interests of Great Britain. He was aware,
that not being a minister, he had it in his power to speak in
a style, in which it would be highly imprudent for his ma
jesty's ministers to express themselves, and as the matters that
he should have occasion to treat of, were of infinite considera
tion, he should endeavour to make himself as well under
stood as possible. With respect to the naval force of this
country, and what ought to be the criterion of its number
and strength, his noble friend the Earl of Surrey had men
tioned only the naval force of France, forgetting that France
was but one branch of the powerful confederacy of maritime
powers, that had been entered into with a professed hostility
to Great Britain ; for though all treaties were avowedly trea
ties of a defensive nature, and entered into upon a pretence of
mutual defence, every man who knew any thing of the mean
ing of treaties, knew that their true intent and purport was
offensive to all who, in the opinion of the contracting par
ties, took any measure, considered as inimical to the interests
of either of them. The treaty, therefore, which the House
of Bourbon had persuaded the United States to enter into
with them, and which effectually secured Holland in their
hands, was to be considered as a treaty hostile to this country,
inasmuch as it combined three of the most powerful maritime
powers of Europe in a confederacy against Great Britain.
That it was unadviseable and impolitic for the United States
to enter into any such treaty, he verily believed ; but, as the
treaty was made and executed, it behoved our minister to be
vigilant and assiduous in engaging in some alliances with
other European maritime powers, whose connection and sup
port might enable us to counteract the mischievous tendency
and effect of the operation of the confederacy in case of a war
with either of the contracting powers. In explanation of the

170 address on the king's speech. [Jan. 24.
consequences to be dreaded from this confederacy, be should
beg leave to remind the House, that our late war with France
had been purely a maritime war, as we had carried onjio mili
tary operations by land, excepting only against our own sub
jects in America ; and this, surely, afforded arguments to shew
the extreme and urgent necessity for our forming a close and
intimate alliance with the court of Petersburgh ; and doubt
less, if the two cabinets properly understood the relative in
terests of Great Britain and Russia, and how much they were
by the character, commerce, and situation of each mutually
involved, and naturally combined, they would lose no time in
the negotiation of such a treaty. Two years ago a crisis was
formed, of which this country ought to have taken advantage,
and which he had, at the precise moment, pointed out in that
House. Many gentlemen might recollect the moment to
which he alluded : it was that, when the Empress of Russia had
settled her differences with the Porte, on the subject of the
Crimea. Though it had been admitted on all hands, that the
settlement of those differences respecting the Crimea had form
ed the crisis he talked of, and that the most glorious opportu
nity had been afforded for Great Britain to help herself, had
the circumstance been managed with dexterity, nothing had
yet been done. The recent advantage France had acquired
as a maritime power, by obtaining possession of a port in
the Baltic, should, if possible, have been prevented.
In one situation of affairs, the possession of Gottenburgh,
it was true, France could make but little use of it ; but, in
case of a war, the advantage must be prodigious to her. Let
gentlemen recollect, that in all her wars, France had been
most embarrassed by her continental situation, and the dread
of an attack from the neighbouring powers; the whole of
her policy, therefore, had been directed to engage them in
such a manner, as to add to her security ; and hence it was,
that during her last war, she had been able to render her
maritime force so respectable and so powerful, because she
had no occasion to give her attention to the strengthening
of her frontier towns, the adding to her internal fortifications,
the recruiting her garrisons, and all that variety of consi
derations necessarily kept alive, while it appeared possible
for her continental neighbours to seize the opportunity of
profiting of her being engaged in hostilities at sea. Nay,
she was even able to aid her resources by a reduction of her
army in time of war, and apply the saving to the increase
of her maritime strength. What was the case at present?
France was safe by her family compact, as to any fear from
Spain ; and she had by the late treaty quieted all possibility
of dread from Holland ; which, indeed, had never been very

1786.] address on the king's speech. 171
powerful by land. Her only cause of alarm, therefore, was
the court of Vienna; and that, notwithstanding all former
assurances of good fellowship, and notwithstanding the still
more endearing bonds of connection cemented by family
union, was a constant and serious source of alarm ; but that
cause of terror we had put to rest, having given his imperial
majesty great disgust, and rendered his feelings adverse to
Great Britain. All this had arisen from the part which the
Elector of Hanover had taken in joining the Elector of
Saxony, and other Germanic princes in the league founded
on the plea of preserving the liberties of the empire. The
safety of France by land was. effectually secured by the effect
of that league on the mind of the emperor, and we should find
her hands strengthened considerably in any future war in
which we might be engaged with her. France had nothing
to wish for before that league was made, but that some cir
cumstance or other should happen to create a jealousy and
dislike of Great Britain in the emperor. That circumstance
we had ourselves provided, and provided gratis, at a moment
when France would have paid us any price for it, far more
than she had expended in bringing about the peace between
the United States of Holland and the emperor. The most
sanguine dreamer of national good fortune could not have
pictured to himself the possibility of such a prosperous event
in favour of France.
One circumstance looked propitious to this country, which
he had heard from such authority as he could rely on, and
therefore he would mention it. At the same time, he did not
doubt but the right honourable gentleman, as a minister, was
aware of it ; but as it was a favourable omen for Great Bri
tain, he was glad to be the person to announce it in that
House, — and that was, that there now offered a good opportu
nity for renewing a treaty of coriimerce with Russia, and that
it was in a fair way to be renewed with success. He well
knew the fashionable mode of calling treaties commercial and
treaties political distinct and separate sorts of treaties ; but he
was not to be blinded by any such new-fangled and ill-
founded distinctions; treaties of commerce entered into be
tween two countries always had influenced their politics in
a very great degree, and he had not a doubt but a treaty of
commerce, entered into between the court of London and
the court of Petersburgh would have its due and salutary
effect, politically as well as commercially ; he was, therefore,
extremely glad of a circumstance so promising to the interests
of both countries.
To the mention, however, that the treaty was likely to go
on between Russia and Great Britain, he thought it lair to

172 address on the king's speech. [Jan. 24.
add, that he had heard Russia would, at the same time, enter
into a commercial treaty with France; of that, he had re
ceived his information ,from a very different quarter, from
an authority not equally good with that from which he had
heard the other, and therefore he hoped, and believed, that
the information was ill founded. He had no opinion of
any good resulting to this country from a commercial treaty
between Great Britain and France, and his reason for not
thinking that such would be its effect, was, that the expe
rience of past times proved, that this country had grown
great, prosperous, and flourishing, from the moment that she
quitted all her commercial connections with France. He
expressed his strong disapprobation of the idea of putting the
country to the expence of two different establishments for
two different plenipotentiaries at Paris, and contended that it
was idle and unnecessary. There were two ways of doing the
business of this commercial treaty, and finishing the negocia-
tion of it. Either the noble duke (of Dorset) now there might
do it, or a person like Mr. Crawford, who had been employed
already, might act under him; at any rate, he declared he
saw no reason for sending out a gentleman, whose rank in
life rendered it improper for him to act in a subordinate
capacity. The right honourable gentleman at the head of
the treasury, had undoubtedly chosen a gentleman (Mr. Eden)
for the office of extra plenipotentiary, who knew somewhat
more of the details of trade and commerce than he did him
self. That the right honourable gentleman was better ac
quainted with commercial concerns, the last session had well
convinced the minister on more than one occasion ; but still
he saw no reason for employing even that right honourable
gentleman's talents on the subject, and he feared the appoint
ment had rather been made out of respect to the person, than
from any necessity for the exercise of the right honourable
gentleman's abilities in the way in which they were to be
employed. The new board of trade, which was undoubtedly
composed of men of great abilities and consideration, and
men of higher rank than the members of the old board of
trade, were the most extraordinary timists, if he might so
call them, that ever existed. Last year, after the propositions
' had come over from Ireland, and just as the British parlia
ment was called upon to vote them, the new board of trade
proceeded to inquire whether the propositions were such as
were fit for either country. In the case of the commercial
treaty, they were equally singular in the time of their send
ing out a person with proper powers to negociate it. By
the treaties of 1782, a treaty of commerce was to be nego
tiated between this country and France, on or before the
14 .

I786.] ADDRESS ON THE KIlJG's SPEECH. 173
1st of January 1786, and from that day all negociation was
to be at an end. Now, therefore, when the time of nego
tiation was past, the new board of trade were busy with the
subject, and they were about to send out a negotiator. He
supposed no step had been taken, nor scarcely any progress
made within the time prescribed by treaty. A second proof
of the bad timing of our political proceedings was, that Sir
James Harris had presented a memorial to the States upon
the subject, but unfortunately not till after the treaty was
concluded. When he read the memorial, he pitied the situa
tion of Sir James, as he could from his own knowledge de-
' clare, that Great Britain never had a more respectable, a more
able, or a more active and accomplished ambassador at any
foreign court whatever.
As to the state of affairs in India, ever since the board of
control had been established, a dark veil had been carefully
drawn over all that had passed in that distant part of our
dominions, and he verily believed not without good and
sufficient reason; secrecy, he was persuaded, was the only
safeguard for the conduct of the commissioners, whose orders
had added to the confusion of our affairs in India, rather
than produced any one salutary effect in the British pos
sessions in that quarter of the globe. Let the minister de
clare, whether after all that had happened, he would still
venture to talk of his East India bill in his usual tone of
triumph. Every man was pardonable for entertaining a spe
culative opinion of the probable good effect of any measure
of his own before it came to be tried ; but no man ought to
be allowed to indulge himself in expressions of self-praise,
which experience had proved that he by no means merited.
His India bill had been attacked on the ground of its tak
ing away the charter of the East India company, after proof
of its having been grossly abused ; but the right honourable
gentleman's bill did what was ten thousand times worse;
it took away the unalienable rights of individuals, and de
prived British subjects of their birth-right, the right to trial
by jury, and of trial by their peers ; a right secured to every
Englishman by the great charter of our liberties. The clause,
obliging all the servants of the company who came from
India, after a certain -period to give an account of their for
tunes on oath, was most unjust and delusive. It held out
protection and security to the rich, while it obliged the poor
to submit to its severest operation; it gave all that wished
not to submit to it three years to return home in ; and this
the opulent, and the opulent alone could take advantage of.
As to the boasted accounts of the promising state of the re
venues of India, instead of a deficiency of only 1,400,000 /.

1 74 . ADDRESS ow THE king's speech. [Jan. 24.
they would now, he believed, find not mere errors of fractions,
but errors of millions. He said, that Lord Macartney had
acted tli roughout the whole of his stay in India upon the most
upright principles, and had come home with hands perfectly
clean and unsullied. His lordship, from a conviction of the
necessity of the measure, had taken the collection and ma
nagement of the revenues of the Carnatic out of the hands,
not of the nabob, but of his agents and usurers, who plun
dered the natives and robbed him, and had vested both in
the hands of the company. This measure the board of con
trol had overthrown by their orders, and directed the col
lection and management of the nabob's revenues to be re
stored to him. The fatal effects of the order had spread
alarm and terror through the Carnatic, and impressed the
council at Fort St. George with so strong an idea of its im
propriety, that Lord Macartney went himself to Calcutta, to
remonstiate with Mr. Hastings, and to deprecate the conse
quences. Let the House guess the surprise of his lordship,
on finding Mr. Hastings departed for Europe, and a com
mission there appointing him governor general, a situation it
was impossible for him to accept, while the order to restore
the collection and management of the Carnatic revenues to the
nabob continued in force. How absurd was it to remove the
governor general, who recommended the measure Lord Ma
cartney had reprobated, and appoint his lordship to the post
of governor general with orders to do, what he himself had
found to be equally unwise and mischievous to the interest of
the company and the interest of the nabob, and had con-
• demned ! Mr. Fox gave the highest encomiums to Lord
Macartney, and before he quitted this part of the subject,
declared he did not speak from any authority derived from
Lord Macartney, nor did he wish to be understood, that
what he had said was any thing more than what he, in com
mon with the rest of the public, knew and was acquainted
with. The last point Mr. Fox brought under his discussion was
the business of the Irish propositions, respecting which, as
he had before observed, he said it was highly necessary that
parhament and the public should clearly know what was in
tended. He reminded the House, that when the subject was
first started the right honourable gentleman, in some of the
most vehement strains of his all powerful eloquence had con
demned the noble lord in the blue ribbon for having given
Ireland certain grants, without having first asked her whe
ther they would be acceptable, and for having left matters
as they stood, when the propositions were first taken up, the
right honourable gentleman having again and again told the

-I 7 86.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 1 75
House, c it was impossible they could remain as they were.'
He desired to know what was the true construction and
meaning of that part of his majesty's speech then under con
sideration that mentioned the resolutions, but a declaration
to that House, that matters must remain as they were ? Mr.
Fox dwelt on this for some minutes, and with great force of
ridicule animadverted on all that had passed upon the subject,
and especially on the language that had been held by the
minister and Mr. Dundas, upon the propriety of the line of
conduct that had been pursued, in first taking the sense of
the Irish parliament in order to ascertain their expectations,
before the English parliament were called upon to consider
the subject. He urged the flat contradiction that the event
of the business had given to all their predictions respecting
its success, and stated in strong terms the mischief that he
conceived the agitating the matter at all, had done, by dis
gusting the manufacturers of Great Britain, and teaching
them that the House of Commons would disregard their pe
titions, stating their dread of the mischievous consequences
to their several branches of manufacture, were the intended
system carried into execution. As the best means of check
ing the evil, and preventing the effect of having ever entered
into a discussion of points, which, he said, he was convinced
ought never to have been disturbed or brought before the
public, he advised the minister explicitly and unreservedly
to declare his determination to abandon all further thought
of attempting to carry a measure so odious and detestable in
the eyes of the manufacturers and merchants of Great Britain
and Ireland. He spoke of the manufacturers in terms of the
highest respect, and declared he was satisfied that to their
ingenuity and industry, and to their spirit and perseverance,
the country owed that exaltation to the state of respect, cha
racter, consideration and prosperity, to which its trade, ma
nufactures and commerce, had been raised in the eyes of all
mankind. He took notice of the reasoning used by the se
cretary of state for Ireland in his celebrated letter to his con
stituents, in recommendation of the propositions, on the
ground, that as the British manufacturers considered the
grant of the propositions to Ireland to be highly injurious to
their interests they must necessarily be advantageous in an
equal proportion to the interests of the Irish manufacturers,
as an argument perfectly sound and forcible in itself, but as
as argument extremely humiliating to the British ministers,
and which placed them in a very contemptible light.
After remarking upon this, and a variety of other facts
and observations, Mr. Fox briefly recapitulated the heads of
bis speech, which he admitted was rather a series of reason-

176 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. ' [Jan. 24.
ing against what was out of the speech than against what was
in it, and sat down with desiring an explanation of the two
main points of the speech to which he had alluded, declaring,
that if they were satisfactorily answered, he would give the
House no more trouble on that day, though most of the topics
he had touched upon, would, he observed, require a full dis
cussion on a future occasion in the course of the session.
In reply to some observations which fell from Mr. Pitt,
Mr. Fox said, that he felt it difficult to avoid smiling at
the absurdity of the right honourable gentleman's arguments
respecting the accession of Hanover to the Germanic league,
as it was obvious that the regency of Hanover ought neither
to form laws nor enter into any treaties which might prove
injurious to Great Britain ; consequently it behoved the mi
nisters of this country to have prevented their entering into
any alliances which might involve serious consequences to the
interests of England. If Hanover, through this mistaken
policy, should sustain a detriment, it naturally followed that
Great Britain must become her guarantee. Such was the
drift of his argument ; and he only had contended that mi
nisters were not warranted, by any plea or pretended exigency
whatever, to disable Great Britain from acting subsequently
with the Emperor, provided that a co-operation of this nature
should appear the most likely to advance the interests of the
former. And, surely, the right honourable gentleman would
not presume to run lengths to which no former ministers had
dared to proceed, and disavow the fullest responsibility for all
the counsels which he might give his royal' master in his cha
racter of elector of Hanover. The right honourable gentle
man seemed eager, Mr. Fox observed, to meet his arguments
with unjustifiable misrepresentation; and therefore he must
desire him to bear in mind, that when he said that he could
speak more freely concerning our particular connections with
foreign powers than if he were a minister, he did not — in
fact, he could not — mean, even in the most distant manner,
to drop the slightest intimation that he was more entitled than
the right honourable gentleman to utter words, conveying an
unpardonable tendency to wound the interests of this country.
The fullest scope of his allusion was, that he felt himself war
ranted to mention France as the natural enemy of Great Bri
tain, in terms more open and unguarded than those consistent
with the reserve which, upon principles of decent policy, a
minister either was or ought to be, under the necessity of
maintaining. — The right honourable gentleman had been
pleased to exercise his wonted ingenuity, by putting the case

1786.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 1 77
of two private men engaged upon the settlement of an account,
and tracing out the supposed absurdity of contending that
they ought to be excluded from all power of giving it a pre
vious discussion. Be the absurdity what it might, he would,
with chearfulness, monopolize the whole, and still stedfastly
and inviolably embrace his former argument, that in great
questions requiring a settlement between two princes, two par
liaments, or two powers, considerations and objects would
arise of which the discussion could never prove allowable, ex
cept under the firmest assurances that' both parties were ulti
mately determined to receive them with unequivocal assent.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and the ori
ginal address agreed to. On the following day, when the report
of the address was brought up,
v|bTr- Fox rose. He said, that as the observations which he
shuuld beg leave to make, bore an affinity to his remarks on
the preceding day, they would all lie within a narrow com
pass. Recent in the memory of the House were his two ques
tions to the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer.
To one of these he had given a precise and clear answer; to
the other he had not spoken in terms equally unambiguous ;
and as that was a question of infinite importance to the in
terests of the country, it was his duty to endeavour, if possi
ble, to obtain such an answer as should remove all doubt and
difficulty. What he alluded to was, the particular degree in
which ministers held Great Britain to, be committed, as to
any future consequences that might arise from the effect of
the league entered into by the Elector of Hanover with the
Elector of Saxony, the King of Prussia and other Germanic
princes. He was aware, that the right honourable gentleman
at the head of his majesty's councils had disclaimed all re
sponsibility for the wisdom and policy of the measure, had
stated it to be a separate and distinct transaction from any
British concern, and had declared that Great Britain was not
committed as to her future conduct, should the league be
productive of disturbances in the empire, in which her in
terests might call her into action. If this was really and truly
the case, and Great Britain was not affected at all by the
league, the more clearly it was known to that House, to the
public, and to all Europe, the better ; because, however well
we understood the distinction between Great Britain and the
electorate of Hanover, as separate states, it was not a very
easy matter to teach foreign powers to understand the same
discrimination. A variety of possible cases existed in which
it would be almost out of the power of this country to adhere
VOL, III. N

178 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Jan. 24.
to any such distinction in practice, however clearly it might
be defined in theory. It might, hereafter, happen that cir
cumstances would make it an essential policy in Great Britain
to join the court of Vienna, and to proceed in counteraction
of the league. In that case, as all treaties were offensive in
their effect, though nominally defensive, a war between the
parties to the league and its opponents might probably arise.
Granting the likelihood of such a war, could the British
troops act against those of Hanover? Or, to make the case
stronger, and yet to put a possible case, suppose the Elector
of Hanover were to head his troops in person, (and they were
all aware that it was not a new thing for an Elector of Hano
ver to take the command in the field,) who would say that the
British army could be directed to act hostilely against troops
led by then sovereign in the character of Elector of Hanover ?
The supposition teemed with the grossest absurdity, and- it
was to shew the extraordinary predicament into which tt^
Elector of Hanover's becoming a party to a league of the na
ture in question, and without the advice of a minister respon
sible for his conduct to that House, might draw Great Bri
tain, and involve its interests, that he brought forward such
unaccountable cases. One historical example would strengthen
the argument which he had used, and prove beyond all doubt
the mischiefs to which this country was liable to become ex
posed, by considering herself as wholly independent of the
interests of Hanover. The case to which he alluded, was
that of George the First, who, by his treaty with Denmark
for the sale of Bremen and Verden, drew down upon him
the vengeance of Sweden; and the consequence was, that
this country had been threatened with an invasion, the most
alanriing, and the most dangerous to the liberties of English
men, of any it ever had occasion to expect. General Stan
hope, at that time the minister of the crown, had, when the
treaty was first heard of, come down to that House, and
used precisely the same sort of language as that uttered by
the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer on the
preceding day. He had talked of the separate and distinct
interests of Great Britain and Hanover, and had said, that
the British parliament had nothing to do with the conduct of
his majesty respecting his electoral dominions. But what was
the consequence? The very next year, General Stanhope,
who held this language, came down to the House, and urged
the expences which his majesty had incurred on account of
his purchase as a plea for calling for additional supplies. If
the matter were not now fully and clearly ascertained, so that
foreign powers, as well as that House, might be certain that
Great Britain was not committed as to any part which her

I786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. 1 79
policy might dictate to her as most advisable to pursue here
after, in the case of a war in Germany, the right honourable
gentleman, who had on the foregoing day disclaimed all re- /
sponsibility for the wisdom and policy of the measure in ques
tion, might come down to the House, on a subsequent occa
sion, and make that very measure, respecting which the
British parliament was excluded from all inquiry and control,
the ground of an application for additional supplies. Mr.
Fox concluded, by observing, that he never spoke concerning
a point of state with less reluctance, persuaded that, on the
present occasion, he neither divulged a secret, nor gave the
slightest wound to the security and interests of the; nation.

Mr. Burke's Accusation of Mr. Hastings.
February 17.
ON the first day of this session, Mr. Burke was called upon by
Major Scott, the agent of the late Governor-general of Ben
gal, to produce the criminal charges against Mr. Hastings in such
a shape as might enable parliament to enter into a full discussion of
his conduct, and come to a final decision upon it. On Friday, the
17th of February, Mr. Burke brought this subject before the
House of Commons : after desiring the clerk to read the 44th
and 45th resolutions, of censure and recal of Mr. Hastings, •
moved by Mr. Dundas on the 29th of May 1782, lie said that
he entirely agreed in opinion with the friends of that gentle
man, that the resolution which had been read should not be suf
fered to remain a mere calumny on the page of their journals; at
the same time he lamented that the solemn business of the day
should have devolved upon him by the natural death of some, by
the political death of others, and in some instances by a death to1
duty and to principle. It would doubtless, he said, have come
forward with much more weight and effect in the hands of the right
honourable gentleman who had induced the House to adopt those
resolutions, or in those of another gentleman, who had taken an
active part in the select committee, and then enjoyed a confiden
tial post in the Indian department, the secretary of the board of
controul; but as he could not perceive any intentions of the kind
in either of those members, and as he had been personally called
upon, in a manner highly honourable to the party interested in the
proceeding, but in a manner which rendered it impossible for him
not to do his duty, he should endeavour to the best of his power
to support the credit and dignity of the House, to enforce its inten
tions, andgive vigour and effect to a sentence passed fouryears $go;
and he trusted that he should receive that protection, that fair and
N a

180 MR. burke's accusation of mr. Hastings. [Feb. 17.
honourable interpretation of his conduct, which the house owed to
those who acted in its name, and under the sanction of its autho
rity  Having endeavoured upon this ground to remove the odium
of appearing a forward prosecutor of public delinquency, Mr.
Burke called back the recollection of the House to the several pro
ceedings which had been had in parliament respecting the mal-admi-
nistration of the company's affairs in India, from the period of Lord
Clive's government down to the reports of the secret and select
committees, the resolutions moved thereupon, and the approba
tion repeatedly given to these proceedings by his majesty from the
throne. — It was upon the authority, the sanction, and the en
couragement thus afforded him, that he rested his accusation of
Mr. Hastings, as a delinquent of the first magnitude. — After
going through an infinite variety of topics relative to this part of
his subject ; he proceeded to explain the process which he should
recommend to the house to pursue. There were, he observed,
three several modes of proceeding against state-delinquents, which
according to the exigencies of particular cases had each at diffe
rent times been adopted. The first was to direct his majesty's at
torney general to prosecute ; from this mode he acknowledged
himself totally averse, not only because he had not discovered in the
learned gentleman, whose respectable character and professional
abilities had advanced him to that high official situation, that zeal
for public justice in the present instance, which was a necessary qua
lification in a public prosecutor ; but more especially, because he
thought a trial in the court of king's bench, amidst a cloud of
causes of meum and tuum, of trespass, assault, battery, conver
sion, and trover, &c. &c. not at all suited to the size and enormity
of the offender, or to the complicated nature and extent of his of
fences. Another mode of proceeding occasionally adopted by the
house was by bill of pains and penalties ; this mode he also greatly
disapproved of, in the first place, as attended with great hardship
and injustice to the party prosecuted, by obliging him to antici
pate his defence ; and secondly, as putting the house in a situation
which, where the nature of the case did not absolutely require it,
ought carefully to be avoided, that of shifting its character back
wards and forwards, and appearing in the same cause one day as
accusers, and another as judges. — The only process that remained,
was by the ancient and constitutional mode of impeachment ; and
even in adopting this process he should aflvise the House to pro
ceed with all possible caution and prudence. It had been usual,
he observed, in the first instance, to resolve that the party ac
cused should be impeached, and then to appoint a committee to
examine the evidenee, and find the articles on which the impeach
ment was to be founded. This mode of proceeding had, from the
heat and passion with which the minds of men were sometimes
apt to be inflamed, led the house, on more than one occasion,
into the disgraceful dilemma of either abandoning the impeach
ment they had voted, or of preferring articles which they had not
evidence to support. In order to steer clear of this disgrace, he
should move that such papers as were necessary for substantiating
the guilt of Mr. Hastings, if guilt there was, should be laid before
14

I786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. l8l
the House ; and that these papers, together with the charges ex
tracted from them, should be referred to a committee of the whole
House, and evidence examined thereon : if the charges should
then appear, what he believed they would be found to be, charges
Of the blackest and foulest nature, and supported by competent
and sufficient evidence, the House would then proceed with confi
dence and dignity to the bar of the House of Lords  Having
stated these matters with great precision, Mr. Burke went into a
series of reflections on the nature of the office he had undertaken.
Every accuser, he said, was himself under accusation at the very
time he accused another ; it behoved him to act upon sure
grounds, and he had therefore chosen the line of conduct he had
just explained, as being at the same time the most effectual for the
purposes of public justice, and the least exposed to the danger of
error : he urged the unavoidable necessity of making the enquiry
personal ; he asked what would be the sentiments of the miserable
and oppressed natives of India, if the result of the proceedings in
that House should be to find that enormous peculation existed,
but that there was no peculator ; that there was gross corruption,
but no person to corrupt, or to be corrupted ; that a torrent of vio
lence, oppression, and cruelty, had deluged that country, but
that every soul in it was just, moderate, and humane ? To trace
peculation to the peculator, corruption to its source, and oppres
sion to the oppressor, had been the object of the researches of the
several committees that had been instituted at different times by the
House ; and the result was, they found that government in India
could not be foul and the governor pure. After a speech of con
siderable length, in which these and many other topics of the same
nature were urged with great force and perspicuity, Mr. Burke
concluded, by moving, " That there be laid before the House,
copies of all correspondence, since the month of January 1782,
between Warren Hastings, Esq., governor general of Bengal, and
the court of directors, as well before as since the return of the
said governor general, relative to presents and other money pri
vately received by the said governor general." — The reflections
thrown out by Mr. Burke, relative to the res61utions of the secret
committee, and the conduct of Mr. Dundas, called up that gen
tleman to justify the part he had taken. He acknowledged that he
undoubtedly was the person who suggested the resolutions alluded
to, and he had not the smallest scruple to admit that the same
sentiments that he entertained respecting Mr. Hastings at the
'time of proposing those resolutions, he entertained at that mo
ment ; but would any one contend that those sentiments went so
far as to suppose Mr. Hastings to be a fit object for a criminal pro
secution ? The Resolutions went to the recal of Mr. Hastings, a
matter which he at the time thought expedient, and had recom
mended it to the House as a matter of expediency only. He
thought the conduct of Mr. Hastings, since the period to which
those resolutions referred, not only not criminal, but highly me
ritorious, and he had for that reason approved of the vote of
thanks which the court of directors had conferred upon him. As
soon as Mr. Dundas had sat down,

1 32 MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. [Feb. 1 7.
Mr. Fox rose, and declared, that he had not the smallest
idea of speaking during the course of the debate, nor would
he have troubled the House, had not some observations fallen
from the right honourable and learned gentleman, under
which it was impossible for him to remain a moment silent.
The only way in which he could meet the matter, was to op
pose assertion to assertion ; and to declare upon the word and
honour of a gentleman, that if, in talking of the thirty-six
writers sent out in 1783, when Sir Henry Fletcher sat at the
head of the board of East India directors, and when he had
himself the honour to be in administration, the right honour
able and learned gentleman meant to insinuate, that he had
been concerned in sending out any, he was completely and
perfectly mistaken. In the whole course of his fife, he never
had sent out, or rather procured to be sent out to India, but
one single writer, and that was at the time when the Earl of
Shelburne, now Marquis of Lansdown, presided over his ma
jesty's councils. That, upon his word of honour, most so
lemnly pledged to the House, had been the only writer for
whom he had ever procured a recommendation and succeeded.
Indeed, if the House would recollect a little, it was not very
likely, that the administration in which he had the honour to
be, should stand remarkably well with the board of directors,
as it was well known what their intentions were at the time,
with a view to effect a reform of the company. Mr. Fox
added, that he considered it right to say thus much in conse
quence of the insinuation of the right honourable and learned
gentleman, and the manner in which it had been conveyed to
the House.
Previous to his sitting down, he should beg leave briefly
to touch upon the consistency of the right honourable and
learned gentleman, who, when hard driven to the point, and
obliged, as it were, to defend his own conduct, had done that,
which heaven knew the right honourable and learned gentle
man could do at all times, with his opponents face to face, let
the argument bear as much as it would against him ! But
what sort of a defence had the right honourable and learned
gentleman made ? He had been reduced to the necessity of
admitting, that he at one time entertained an opinion that
Mr. Hastings, with respect to certain points, proceeded in a
manner highly culpable ; nay, he added, that he was still of
the same opinion, although almost in the same breath, cer
tainly in the same speech, he had declared that he entertained
a high opinion of Mr. Hastings, and praised his conduct as
warmly in the latter part of his observations, as he had abused
it in the former part. And what points had the right ho
nourable and learned gentleman chosen to select as the
points in which he considered Mr. Hastings as having

1786.] mr. burke's accusation of mr. Hastings. 183
been highly culpable ? Merely the two points of the Rohilla
war, with the breach of the treaty of Poorunder, and in
having introduced expensive establishments in India. Gra
cious heaven ! did the whole idea which the right honourable
and learned gentleman entertained of the culpability of Mr.
Hastings amount only to this ? Had the House heard nothing
of Corah and Allahabad? Of Cheyt Sing? Of the Begums 2
And of all the long catalogue of crimes committed in India,
to the infinite disturbance of the peace of the country,
to the misery and even butchery of the natives, to the destruc
tion of all confidence in British faith, and to the everlasting
disgrace of the British name and character in Hindostan ?
Mr. Fox now read the resolution immediately preceding
that in which the House resolved, in 1782, that Mr. Flastings
and Mr. Hornby should be recalled, and appealed to every
man of common sense, whether that marked and strong cen
sure did not go immediately to Mr. Hastings and Governor
Hornby ? It was not in language to express disgrace more
strongly than to declare that the delinquents ought to receive
some mark of parliamentary displeasure. Certainly these two
resolutions, and the obvious construction of both, with the
vote of recall passed at the India house, in which Governor
Hastings was permitted to resign in consequence of his long
and meritorious services, was not a little strange. How was
this mode of recall to be reconciled to the resolution which
stigmatized Mr. Hastings, and declared it as the opinion of
the House that he deserved some mark of parliamentary dis
pleasure ? Was it not a contradiction insulting to that House,
and inconsistent to a shameful degree? The right honourable
and learned gentleman thought proper to declare that he
would not have sheltered himself under a minute of the board
of directors, but that had he been a director, he would have
signed that minute likewise ; and, therefore, the right honour
able and learned gentleman, who had himself prevailed upon
the House of Commons to resolve in a grave and phlegmatic
form, but in strong and energetic phrase, that Governor
Hastings deserved parliamentary censure, would have given
that gentleman thanks for his long and meritorious services !
What egregious inconsistency ! For the word " long" in the
minute of recall, undoubtedly comprehended the whole of the
services of Mr. Hastings, as well those before 1782, as those
subsequent to this period. During the debate, his right ho
nourable friend who commenced it, had been censured by a
worthy alderman (Le Mesurier) for his supposed remark in
respect to trial by jury, The worthy magistrate had misun
derstood his right honourable friend, who had not expressed
any disapprobation of the general principle of trials by jury,

1 84 MR. burke's accusation OF MR. HASTINGS. [March 3.
but merely observed, that the cause under consideration was
of too much magnitude for the cognizance of the court of
King's Bench, and had proposed to appeal to a tribuflj|j^and
a form of trial as ancient as the constitution itself, of which
it was a part. Thus had his right honourable friend evinced,
that the highest species of offenders might be brought to trial,
without resorting to any novel experiment on the constitu
tion, but in a manner conformable to usage, and before an
ancient, legal, and constitutional tribunal. All this amounted
to one powerful proof, that the new court of judicature, which
took away the birth-right of Britons, made that evidence that
was not evidence before, and obliged criminals to accuse and
to convict themselves, was not only a tribunal unconstitutional
in its origin and its principle, and tyrannical and oppressive
in its practice, but altogether needless.
The question being carried, Mr. Burke proceeded to move for
a variety of other papers, which he alleged were necessary for the
prosecution of the cause he had undertaken. These motions pro
duced much conversation, and, towards the close of the day, there
appeared some hesitation in the ministers of the crown, whether it
would be proper to produce whatever papers might be called for
on the mere suggestion of the mover, without insisting upon his
stating to the House the connection they had with the matters
contained in the reports of the committees, beyond which they
did not think he ought to go in the matter of his intended accusa
tion. At this stage of the business the House adjourned at one
o'clock, on account of the illness of the speaker ; and the day fol
lowing the conversation was renewed, upon a motion for papers
relative to the affairs of Oude. Major Scott agreed with Mr.
Burke, that the papers were necessary to be produced ; and Mr.
Pitt, after many professions of the most unbiassed impartiality,
concurred with them ; remarking at the same time, that it would
be but fair and candid in the right honourable mover, to give the
House some specific information of the subject matter of his
charges, and to state the grounds and reasons for the production
of such papers as he might think it necessary to call for in sup
port of them. In compliance with this request, Mr. Burke read
to the House a short abstract of the several charges which he de
signed to bring forward ; and pointed out the matters which the
several papers, he afterwards moved for, were intended to explain
and substantiate. March 3.
On the 3d of March, Mr. Burke moved, " That there be laid
before the House, copies or duplicates of all papers relative to the
last peace with the Mahrattas, or any demand made by the Mah-
rattas concerning the cession or restoration of any territories now
in the possession of the company, or its allies, or of the payment
of any chout (or fourth part of the revenues), or of any sum in

I786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. 1 85
lieu thereof, or concerning any payment of money, or loan, to any
of the said Mahrattas, made or paid since the 1st of January,
1779." Tms motion was opposed by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Du.idas,
on two grounds ; first, that the treaty in question was a wise and
salutary treaty, and had saved the British empire in Asia ; and,
secondly, that the production of the papers moved for would dis
cover transactions relative to that peace, which ought to be kept
a secret from the country powers in India, insomuch as it would
disclose the means by which the several states that were confe- ,
derated against England were made jealous of each other, and
the intrigues by which they were induced to dissolve that confe- 1
deracy. Mr. Fox rose, and desired to be favoured with a serious
answer to this necessary question, whether the professions of a
determination to persist in a refusal of the papers were ac
tually sincere ? Surely there was nothing in the rule of con
duct which the gentleman of the other side laid down for
themselves that did not argue most powerfully and convin
cingly for their production. If a specific purpose was neces
sary to be mentioned, and the object of the motion requisite
to be explained, there was a pointed and specific charge in the
treatment of the-Ranna of Gohud, who was allowed, and
indeed mentioned in former treaties, as the ally and friend of
Great Britain, and neglected in the general peace which ter
minated the Mahratta war. This was the fact, as it appeared
uncontradicted, and the House ought surely to inquire whe
ther such desertion of the friends of this country was justifi
able in the governor general. To withhold any information
on this subject would be not only unjust to Mr. Hastings,
who was accused, but indecent to the House, whose honour
was so much concerned in the full and rigorous examination
of such a conduct. There was no behaviour whatever which
would operate more injuriously to the British interest, either
in this or any other quarter, than to find that its friendship
was no protection to its allies. An unwarranted desertion,
if such it could be proved, must certainly be considered as a
great misdemeanor ; and nothing was more necessary either
to the character or vindication of the person accused, than to
explain the grounds on which he was justified. There might
possibly exist a plea of necessity for this proceeding, and,
for the present moment, he would admit that it did exist.
But when there was a certain assurance that the allies and
defendants of Great Britain had been abandoned by her in a
negotiation, there was a crime prima facie evident, and the
proceedings in that negotiation should certainly be laid before
the House, in order to convince them of that necessity. It
would be yery unfair, and indeed very improper, if gentlemen

I 86 MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. [March J»
should have these feelings barely when their own honour or
their own characters were at stake, and seem wholly uncon
scious of them, when the question was against the character
of others. Thus the ministers of the time, when the late
peace was concluded, knew the defection from the loyalists
to be a conduct so much in need of justification, that they
very decently came down to the House, in order to excuse
themselves on the ground of necessity. Whether such neces
sity existed, it was not for him to discuss ; but the means of
inquiry on the subject were undoubtedly open. Why not,
then, pursue the same line of conduct on the present occasion,
when positive and direct charges were brought against the
measure ? If motives of necessity recommended the treachery,
why was that necessity not explained ? And if principles of
policy dictated the conduct, why was not that policy made
known ? It was indeed alleged, that the interests of the coun
try might be endangered by the disclosure which the papers
would make : but in our constitution there were both advan
tages and defects, and the same must alsO be true of every
other constitution and species of government. We, however,
were of opinion, that the advantages which we constitu
tionally possessed by far outbalanced the disadvantages ; and
it was one of the leading principles, to prefer the respon
sibility which belonged to our officers and ministers to the
secrecy which was deemed so necessary in other countries.
Supposing, then, (for he was far from admitting it,) that some
injury might be apprehended from the production of these
papers, it was only the necessary consequence to which every
investigation was liable ; and there could be no inquiry of a
public nature, in which circumstances did not come out which
might better have remained a secret. The House, then,
would do well to reflect what a precedent they were laying
down, for future public officers to take advantage of. For
if this excuse should once be admitted, there was no circum
stance, and no situation, to which it would not be found to
apply. A right honourable and learned gentleman (Mr. Dun
das) had, on this, as well as a former night, endeavoured to
play off the conduct of Mr. Hastings, posterior to the reports
of the committee, against the delinquency of his former mea
sure, to which the right honourable and learned gentleman
had himself borne such full and ample testimonies in the
course of those reports. But what was the meaning of this
language, or what other sentiment did it express but this ?
" I think his conduct since that period laudable and good,
and I wish you to think so with me ; but, in the mean time, I
am resolved that you shall have no reason to think so beyond
my assertion, and I will deny you the information which is
ii

1786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. 187
necessary to convince you of it." Sufficient had been the re
marks of his right honourable friend, Mr. Burke, to prove,
that not even the most trivial cause existed for those apprehen
sions of danger which gentlemen on the other side of the
House, for reasons best known to themselves, thought proper
to express ; and therefore he trusted that the House would call
for arguments less frivolous, before they gave their sanction to
the withholding of the necessary papers.
Mr. Pitt, in the course of his speech, reminded the House, that
the policy of Mr. Fox, at a period when this country was labouring
under the pressure of a war against combined and powerful foes,
was to detach a part of that confederacy. In answer to which,
Mr. Fox said, that he felt it necessary to bring into clearer
points of view some allusions started during the cdurse of the
debate, and which had even been touched upon beyond the
walls of parliaments, relative to his negotiation for a separate
peace with Holland. He was well aware that the right ho
nourable gentleman did not mention it by way of blame, rtor
did he wish to impute to him any such intention ; but as it
had so often been glanced at, he was glad to have the oppor
tunity of speaking two or three words to it in this public man
ner. He was sorry that the House was so thin of members,
but he was pleased to see so full a gallery. When this measure,
of detaching Holland and America from the confederacy which
was formed against us, was first proposed, he had been only
three days in office, and consequently was obliged to meet those
people in the cabinet from whom he was accustomed to differ
upon political subjects ; and yet, — what was a circumstance
that did not often happen, — he had the honour to pro
pose that measure with the unanimous concurrence of all
his majesty's cabinet ministers. This he thought himself at
liberty to mention, because, though it might be improper to
state the dissensions or disagreements in the cabinet, there
would certainly be no impropriety in mentioning their unani
mity. He would farther observe, that this policy was by no
means ineffectual as to some of its objects, though, in others, it
certainly had not the wished-for success : for those gentlemen
who were then in office might well recollect, that the disposi
tion of some courts in Europe was not then extremely favour
able to this country, and that the measure now alluded to
had at least the effect of averting those consequences which
might otherwise have been apprehended. — Having said this
much for the allusion, he would next return to the propriety
of admitting the present papers. He observed, that it was ex
pressed in the treaty subsisting between the company and the

1 88 mr. burke's accusation of mr. Hastings. [March 3.
Raima of Gohud, that he was to be protected by the powers of
Great Britain against their mutual foes. In consequence of
which, he had lent his services during the war, and was to
have been, of course, included in the peace. There were also,
according to Mr. Hastings's own letters, several other rajahs
and princes who had the same, or similar, claims upon the
protection of Great Britain; and yet it appeared from the
Mahratta treaty of peace, that none of them were included in
the provisions of it. This was not the time to argue from
what motives, or upon what policy this was done. But the
omission was prima facie evidence either of treachery or guilt,
to obviate, or to substantiate which, was the object of the pre
sent motion, and was, in his judgment, a debt claimed as well
by the justice clue to the sufferers in India, as to the dignity of
parliament and the acquittal or condemnation of Mr. Hastings.
He agreed that it( was not sufficient ground for the produc
tion of all papers, to say that one gentleman was the prosecu
tor, and would pledge himself to prove their application to
the object in view. But, in the present case, the production
of the papers could not be followed by any political peril
whatever, and the strongest reasons existed in favour of the
disclosure of their contents.
Major Scott observed, that the difference now subsisting be
tween Mr. Fox and Mr. Hastings was not greater than that which
formerly prevailed between him and his noble friend Lord North ;
nor were his charges more severe against the one than the other.
In all the proceedings against Mr. Hastings, and amidst all the
abuse poured out against him, the Major said he had never
entertained the smallest apprehensions, nor ever made any over
tures of accommodation. On the other hand, when the right ho
nourable gentleman brought in his India bill, an intimation was
given, in a private conversation which he had with a person of
authority, that matters might be accommodated ; and he made no
doubt, had Mr. Hastings then come home, he would have heard
nothing of all this calumny, and all these serious accusations. As
soon as the Major sat down,
Mr. Fox immediately rose, and said, that, on a subject
which concerned his honour and character, he would not her
sitate a moment to offer himself again to the House. He
would first premise, that at no period could he declare that
offers were made to him, either by Mr. Hastings or his agents,
in order to bring about an accommodation ; for if there had,
he would instantly have treated them with the most absolute
and marked refusal. At'the same time he would assert, upon
his honour as a gentleman, that no proposal whatever was made
to Mr. Hastings or his friends, with either his knowledge or
his concurrence ; and he was also certain that no such proposal

I786.J MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. I 89
ever came from any of his colleagues. So that whoever made,
or even hinted at such an offer as coming from him, did it
without the smallest shadow of authority. In private conver
sations with his friends it had been frequently suggested by
them, that Mr. Hastings being a very powerful man, it might
make the India bill go down the easier, if the idea of prosecut
ing that gentleman was given up : but he had always resisted
such advice ; and, indeed, so determined was he, to have the
governor-general brought to trial, that in his opening speech
on his India bill, he had dwelt so much upon the mal-adminis-
tration of Mr. Hastings, that many of the enemies to that
bill had objected to him, that there seemed to be no other re
medy necessary for the evils in India, than the recal of
Mr. Hastings.
The House divided on Mr. Burke's motion :
Tellers. Tellers. ,
v f Sir James Erskine! XT_fMr. Eliot 1 c
Yeas{ Mr. Francis J44— Noes |Mr#Roge j 87.
So it passed in the negative. March 6.
This day Mr. Burke moved, " That there be laid before this
House, copies or duplicates of all consultations, instructions, and
other correspondence, relative to any negociation at the court of
the great mogul, wherever residing, concerning any treaty with the
said mogul or concerning any of the ministers of the said court, or
any of the chiefs in the neighbourhood of Delhi, or relative to any
claims or demands for, or on behalf of, the said court, upon the
East India company, since the 1st day of January 1781." — Mr.
Pitt refused to comply with the motion, as tending to affect the
policy of India, by opening the secrets of negociations in that
country, which the peace and tranquillity of Hindostan rendered
absolutely necessary should remain undivulged. After a short
debate the motion was rejected, on a division, by 8R against 34. A
motion being immediately afterwards made for " a copy of a letter
from Major James Brown to Warren Hastings, Esq. governor-
general of Fort William, dated fromDelhi, on the 30th of December
1 783; also copies of two letters from Warren Hastings, Esq. to the
court of directors of the East India company, dated the 30th of
April and 16th of June 1784,"
v.
Mr. Fox rose and remarked, that if the papers stated in
the question were refused, there was an end of asking for
papers, however material to the prosecution those papers might
be, and however free from any imputation of being dangerous
or likely to affect the policy of India. He could not believe,
however, that his majesty's minister would go the length of

ioo MR. bueke's accusation of mr. Hastings. [March 6.
refusing the three letters in question. If he did, what a shame
ful fact would it establish ! For would it not then appear in
broad and striking colours, that a right honourable and learned
gentleman had persuaded that House to vote a number of
strong resolutions, to not one of which he meant that they
should ever give force and efficacy? Of the papers now called
for, the House could already perceive the tendency, since, m
the preceding debate, they had heard the most material pas
sages read and argued on. They must, therefore, be aware,
that no harm whatever could arise from making them public :
he and his friends had duplicates of them already in their
possession, and were perfectly masters of. their contents. In
refusing to let them formally be laid upon the table, the other
side of the House would stand without excuse. Mr. Fox con
tended that it was, in his mind, impossible that they should do
so. - If they did, and pleaded that their granting the papers
would affect the policy of India, he must declare, that ever
since he sat in parliament, he never had witnessed so disgrace
ful a conduct. His comfort, nevertheless, would be, that, how
ever the minister might withstand every individual motion for
papers, and prevent any thing like evidencefrom being obtain
ed, and however he might rely on the power of his majorities
in that House, there was another tribunal to which he must go
for trial, the tribunal of the public, who would judge for them
selves. The right honourable gentleman might be assured,
that, though that House would rest content, the honour of the
nation would not be satisfied, nor would the people be pleased
at seeing their representatives act in a manner so disgraceful to
themselves, and so foreign to the purposes of substantial jus
tice. — What a precious farce, exclaimed Mr. Fox, is daily
acting within these walls ! We see the friends of Mr. Hastings
affecting to be eager that every paper called for should be
granted : we see the king's ministers rising to declare that
every thing that can properly be granted shall not be refused :
we hear other gentlemen, who call themselves independent
men, saying, by all means let the House know the whole,
and be put in possession of every necessary species of infor
mation ; and yet we see the same men all of them dividing
together to enforce a negative to a motion for such informa
tion, and we see them helping each other out with hints and
whispers during the debate, and pointing to matters apposite
to the argument on their side the question, in like manner as
.my right honourable friend and myself Would assist each
other when we are maintaining the same point and arguing
for the same purpose !
The motion was negatived.

1786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. 191

March 17.
Previously to his troubling the House on the subject which he
wished to bring under their consideration, Mr. Fox moved, " That
the entries in the journal of the House, of the 28th day of May,
1782, of the six resolutions reported from the committee of the
whole House, to whom it was referred to consider farther of the
several reports which had been made from the committee of secrecy,
relating to the affairs of the East India company, and which were
then agreed to by the House, might be read." And the same
were read accordingly, as follows :
Resolved, " That the orders of the court of directors of the
East India company, which have conveyed to their servants abroad
a prohibitory condemnation of all schemes of conquest and en
largement of dominion, by prescribing certain rules and bounda
ries for the operation of their military force, and enjoining a strict
adherence to a system of defence upon the principle of the treaty
of Illahabad, were founded no less in wisdom and policy than in
justice and moderation."
" That every transgression of those orders, without evident neces
sity, by any of the several British governments in India, has been
highly reprehensible, and has tended, in a chief degree, to weaken
the force and influence, and to diminish the resources, of the
company in those parts."
" That every interference, as a party, in the domestic or national
quarrels of the country powers, and all new engagements with
them in offensive alliance, have been wisely and providently for
bidden by the company in their commands to their administrations
in India."
" That every unnecessary or avoidable deviation from those well-
advised rules should be followed with very severe reprehension and
punishmentfor it, as an instance of wilful disobedience of orders, and
as tending to disturb and destroy that state of tranquillity and peace
with all their neighbours, the preservation of which has been re
commended as the first principle of policy to the British govern
ment in India."
" That the maintenance of an inviolable character for modera
tion, good faith, and scrupulous regard to treaty, ought to have
been the simple grounds on which the British government should
have endeavoured to establish an influence superior to that of other
Europeans over the minds of the native powers in India ; and that
the danger and discredit arising from the forfeiture of this pre-emi
nence, could not be compensated by the temporary success of any
plan of violence or injustice."
, " That as an essential failure in the executive conduct of the
supreme council, or presidencies, would make them justly liable to'
the most serious animadversions of their superiors, so should any
relaxation, without sufficient cause, in these principles of good
¦government, on the part of the directors themselves, bring upon
them, in a heavier degree, the resentment of the legislative power
of their country, which alone can interpose an effectual correction
to the general misrule."

192 mr; burke's accusation of mr. Hastings. [March 17.
" That it appears, that the government general had been previ
ously in possession of a letter from the duan of the rajah of Berar,
containing overtures for mediation for peace and alliance with the
peshwa ; and that this material information was wholly suppressed
by them in their dispatches to the court of directors; but a copy
of it was sent, by the same conveyance, to the private agent of
Mr. Hastings ; and that, thus neglecting to make immediate com
munication to the court of directors of such important intelligence,
the government general appear to have failed in an essential part
of their duty."
These Resolutions having been read,
Mr. Fox rose and observed, that he was perfectly convinced,
that, previously to all endeavours for the successful introduc
tion of a motion for papers, effectually and substantially, al
though perhaps not formally similar to that which, during
the course of a preceding debate, received the investigation,
and — with concern he spoke it — suffered under the dissent
of the House, an apology was due to them upon the principle
that it must always prove indecent frivolously to trespass upon
their attention. But if he ever had reason to be dissatisfied
with the decision of that House ; if he ever thought a motion
of the first importance to the honour and dignity of the House
required a re-consideration, it was the motion for the Dehli
papers ; and that, because the decision the House had come to
when they negatived it, had proved a decision in the teeth of
the resolutions just read, and in defiance of every sound and
solid argument advanced in support of those resolutions. It
was, therefore, for no light or trivial purpose that he again
begged the House, for the sake of its dignity, for the sake of its
own honour, for the sake of national justice and national
character, to re-consider what they had decided upon, and,
before they confirmed a denial of the Dehli papers, — which
denial, it appeared to him, they could not confirm, without
loading themselves with disgrace and impeaching their own
honour and dignity — to weigh well what they were about, to
reflect a little on the frivolous point of view in which such an
illjudged confirmation would place their own resolutions, and
the effect which it must necessarily have upon the conduct of
the company's servants in India. He begged them also to
recollect, that in passing the resolutions of the 28th of May,
1782, they had held out to the country powers of India a
code of wise, wholesome, and salutary laws, as the basis of
the conduct of the British government in India in future ;
and that the House had, in fact, pledged itself to adhere
to the letter and spirit of their own resolutions.
These were surely great and important considerations, con
siderations which ought to have a deep effect on the minds of
gentlemen before they gave a vote, which must involve in it so

I

I786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. I93
many and such interesting consequences. Some persons had
supposed that our government and constitution were attended
by certain disadvantages with respect to their intercourse with
foreign states, arising from the public manner in which many
important parts of our administration must necessarily be con
ducted ; but from this evil, if an evil it was, a most important
good would be found to result, when it was considered how
far this publicity tended to create a confidence in all other
nations, and how strongly it contributed to bind us to certain
defined and specific modes of political conduct, From hence
it arose, that we could lay down (as we had done in the pre
sent instance) a particular system of proceeding, for the due
observance of which all those states might reasonably look to
us ; an advantage not in the power of any arbitrary govern
ment whatever ; for if a king were to issue an edict, setting
forth the principles by which he intended to conduct himself
with respect to foreign nations, it would be received only as
a notification of the will of the minister of the day, who, by
death or disgrace, might lose his situation, and leave room
for a successor 'of different sentiments, who, of course, would
pursue-a different line of conduct; whereas, with us, when
the British House of Commons published a system of foreign
administration, they not only committed the whole nation in
the persons of their representatives, but absolutely bound indi*
vidually, as well all those who had already been ministers,
and had a prospect of being so for many years to come, as
those who were so for the present.
That he might, if possible, still more impress the House
with a proper idea of the magnitude of the duty which they
had engaged to perform, when they voted the resolutions of
1782, he should not hesitate to describe them as measures of
a strong nature, and affording, he believed, the first instance
of that House thinking that it became them to depart so far
out of their immediate province, as to interfere with any part
of the exercise of the executive government; a circumstance
which they certainly would not have consented to, but from
the extraordinary complexion of the case which seemed to
call for peculiar notice and a peculiar mode of proceeding.
Having premised these observations, Mr, Fox entered into
a discussion of the principles on which the House usually
called for papers, declaring that they never did it lightly,
and being conscious that they ought not to do it lightly, he
never had, nor would attempt to move for any that he was
not convinced were absolutely necessary for some great and
useful public purpose. The House, he was aware, ought not
to grant any other ; and, it was true, he was willing to admit,
that papers necessary for some great and useful public pur-
VOL. m, o

194 mr.burke's accusation of mr.hastings. [March 17.
pose might be called for, the producing of which might,
nevertheless, be attended with mischief to the state, of such
a dangerous tendency, as would more than overbalance the
good that might arise from the purpose being answered for
which they were moved, and which, therefore, afforded his
majesty's ministers sound and cogent reasons for refusing
them; and, under such circumstances, it was undoubtedly
their duty to refuse them. But though he was ready to admit
this, yet he held, that in all such cases the refusal ought not
to rest solely on the bare ipse dixit of a minister ; that many
questions of confidence might, it was true, be agitated, on
which a minister's word ought to betaken; but then, some
thing, at least, ought to be stated, in order to convince the
House that mischief might arise if the motion were complied
with. In regard to the motion in question, the motion with which
he should conclude what he had to say, for the Delhi papers,
it had been on a former day stated by his right honourable
friend, the avowed accuser of Mr. Hastings, that those papers
were material to the matter in charge, and therefore they had
been called for ; but, material as they were, if they were not
granted, his right honourable friend had declared, he already
was in possession of sufficient materials to prove and make
good every thing that he had said at various times respecting
the delinquency of the late governor general of India: his
character, therefore, was safe, and on shore. This, Mr. Fox
said, which he was satisfied was perfectly true in respect to
his right honourable friend, he wished was equally true in
respect to that House. He wished that House to be on
shore, and its character safe ; and therefore it was, that he
should again call for the papers.
But before he did so, let the House recollect upon what
ground the papers had been once refused. It had been stated
by the right honourable gentleman opposite to him, that the
papers were not essential to the charge against Mr. Hastings ;
that they proved nothing, Mr. Hastings not having authorised
Major Brown to enter into a treaty with the shah; and,
thirdly, that they involved in them secrets respecting the ne
gotiations that had during the war been carried on in India,
the divulging of which would tend to disturb the tranquillity
of the respective powers concerned in those treaties, and to
induce consequences that might be attended with danger to
the British state.
For his own part, he was confident that he should not
experience much difficulty in proving that these grounds of
denial either did not apply, or were not sufficiently material
to justify withholding the papers; and to establish his posi-

I786.] MR. BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. I95
tion he might venture to rest much of his reasoning on the
letters of Major Brown to Mr. Hastings. It was manifest
that a treaty of offensive alliance had been negociated with the
mogul, which was directly contrary to the express resolution
of that House. It was manifest, from Major Brown's letter,
that Mr. Hastings had authorised that negociation, and that,
in Major Brown's opinion, good faith, morality, and justice,
required that assistance should be afforded the mogul, in
compliance with the terms of that treaty. The emphatic
words of Major Brown's letter were, " we have offered to
treat; he has accepted : we have annexed conditions, he has
approved of them." These words proved incontestably, that
the treaty commenced by voluntary offer on our part; and
the subsequent words ni which Major Brown in his letter
proceeded to urge Mr. Hastings, for the sake of the good
faith, morality, and justice of the British nation, to send
troops to the assistance of the mogul, to lay siege to certain
districts of country, in order to drive out the inhabitants,
and to give the lands to the troops for their subsistence,
proved equally forcibly that the treaty was a treaty of offen
sive alliance. It was evident that the resolution of the House
had been trampled on and contemned by Mr. Hastings in
this instance ; and it was more than matter of suspicion that
the treaty was never intended to have been concluded when
it was begun.
When, during the former debate on the same subject, he
was complaining that the resolution had been infringed by
Mr. Hastings, who began to negociate a treaty of offensive
alliance, the right honourable the chancellor of the exche
quer had thought proper to say across the House, " a treaty
never completed :" he therefore must beg leave to know
whether he was to understand from those words that it was
taken as a merit that the company's servants in India got
into this dilemma. They had violated the resolutions of the
House by commencing a treaty, which local or temporary
policy might appear to make it expedient to commence, and
then they had violaled the national faith by deceiving the
mogul, and refusing to conclude the treaty so commenced;
thus proving to the princes of Hindostan how little security
was, on the one hand, afforded them by the code of laws held
out to them in the resolutions of the British House of Com
mons, and how little safety was, on the other hand, to be
acquired by entering into treaties of alliance with the British
government in India.
He felt himself thoroughly justified in contending that,
in spite of any narrow principle which temporary distress
or local circumstances might seem to call for, such as keep-
o 2

196 MR. burke's ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. [March 1 7.
ingjhe mogul out of the hands of the French, or of Tippoo
Sultan, it ill became a nation of great weight and character,
like Great Britain, to depart from general systems, founded
in wisdom and in justice, for any such petty considerations ;
that if such narrow policy were to justify a departure from
a great parliamentary system, there was an end of the utility
of laying down a code of laws, to be made the foundation
of a government, of simplicity, of publicity, and of good
faith. In fact, the whole of the negociation had been
secretly carried on by Mr. Brown, as the agent of Mr.
Hastings. With respect to the ground of refusal of the papers, on
the plea that their production would betray some secrets of
negociation, the divulging of which might disturb the tran
quillity of the powers of Hindostan, and prove dangerous to
the safety of the state, he must candidly confess that it was
most difficult to meet it with any argument, the other side
of the House having given him so little to lay hold of, and
not having said enough to enable him to guess even at what
the danger could possibly be which would arise, were the state
secrets, which they so much dreaded to lay open, to become
divulged. Situated,' however, as he was in these respects,
he could, without hesitation, declare, that no government
secret of any kind could justify the withholding papers which
were to enable the House to support and substantiate the
resolutions to which they stood solemnly pledged. For what
was it but to say to the princes in India, " We know our
servants have committed delinquencies, and we are convinced
that they have broken faith with you ; but we must not in
quire into their conduct, because that would betray state
secrets, that would develope state mysteries, which must be
kept sacred !" Would not every man in India laugh at so
absurd a reason for refusing to do justice? Would it not
plainly appear that the board of control, and that House,
were following the exact steps of the old boards of directors ?
That they were laying down complete systems of ethics in
their orders and resolutions, but refusing to take the only
means possible to enforce their performance ? The effect of
such conduct was too manifest to need illustration. Instead
of reformation in India, it would encourage abuse, and in
crease delinquency ; the board of control and the House of
Commons would be answerable for having suffered the com
pany's servants, employed in the government of India, to
believe themselves secure from inquiry, and safe from punish
ment. What was it but to put it in the power of a minister
to interfere in every investigation, and, by his single veto, put
a stop to the process, and defeat the aim of that House in the

I786.3 MR.BURKE'S ACCUSATION OF MR. HASTINGS. I97
exercise of its first great constitutional character — that of the
grand inquest of the nation ? Armed with such a power, to
what lengths might not a minister proceed ? Every criminal,
however notorious his delinquency, however numerous his
crimes, however injurious to the national honour, would only
have to secure the minister's protection to be able to laugh
at accusation, and set conviction at defiance.
Much had been said by the friends of ministers concern
ing secrets; but there could be no secret in question; nor
could the papers called for possibly make any thing public,
which was not already well known in India. , If it were asked
why he, who was so strenuous for the publishing of every
matter relative to India, and so urgent in contending that
nothing respecting that country ought to remain a secret,
did not hold the same argument with respect to the Euro
pean powers, and in like manner maintain that nothing which
regarded treaties and negociations between the court of Great -
Britain and any court of Europe ought to be made a state
secret in that House, by any of his majesty's ministers, he •
would answer that question by proposing another. ' Had that
House ever expressly laid down rules of administration for
the executive government with regard to European powers ?
Most certainly it had not ; and that for very clear and ob
vious reasons. Why had it done otherwise with respect to
the administration of the executive government of the British
possessions in India? Because from the series of abuses,
mismanagement, and delusion, which had crept into the
conduct of the executive government in India, the British
honour was tarnished, and the native princes no longer had
confidence in British faith. Nothing, therefore, but the in-
terference-of parliament could redeem the national credit, and
restore it in the eyes of the country powers in Hindostan.
Having so interfered, and having laid down the code of laws
which could alone support a system of government adapted to
the nature of the case, and likely to regain the confidence of
the native princes — a system of government founded on sim
plicity, publicity, and good faith, — would that House, on the
mere pretence of a state secret, without the smallest informa
tion to prove that there was a real state secret in the way,
with nothing more than a minister's ipse dixit for it, shut
their eyes to what every man who was not wilfully blind
must see the necessity of — to their proceeding to substantiate
their resolutions and fulfil their promises, to which they all
stood so particularly pledged ? Even yet, however, he should
not relinquish his hopes that the right honourable and learned
gentleman (Mr. Dundas) would rescue the House from the
disgrace of having been persuaded by him to vote resolutions9
0 3

198 mr. pitt's motion [Feb. 27.
which, if the papers were refused, it would be fair to say he
never meant should be acted upon. Let the right honourable
arid learned gentleman recollect what had been done last year
by the board of control respecting the debts of the nabob
of Arcot. If he did not know the circumstance, he would
possess him of it ; but most probably he knew it more cor
rectly than he did ; if he did not, however, he would inform
him of the fact. It was this : — that so far from the arrange
ment then made being attended to, new loans were at this
time going on, and new debts contracting. Mr. Fox con
cluded a most able speech with moving, " That there be laid
before this House an extract of Bengal consultations, dated
20th January 1784, as far as relates to any letter received
from Major Brown, dated the 30th of December 1783."
After a long debate, the House divided on Mr. Fox's motion :
Tellers. Tellers.
f Mr. North 1 *. s J Mr. Eliot 1
, Yeas | Sir James Erskine} 73  Noes jMr Roge J 140.
So it passed in the negative.

Mr. Pitt's Motion for Fortifying the Dock Yards.
February 27.
THE first object of importance that engaged the attention of
parliament in the present session, was a measure which ori
ginated with the Duke of Richmond, the master-general of the
ordnance. It was a plan for fortifying the dock yards at Ports
mouth and Plymouth. The House of Commons had in the pre
ceding session expressed their unwillingness to apply any part of
the public money for this purpose, before they were made ac
quainted with the opinions of such persons as were best able to
decide concerning the utility and propriety of such a measure.
In consequence of this intimation, a board of military and naval
officers was appointed by the king, with the master general of the
ordnance as their president ; and the proposed plan of fortifications
was referred to them for their opinions and advice. After they
had investigated the subject, and had made their report thereon,
the plans recommended were laid before a board of engineers to
make an estimate of the expences necessary to carry them into
execution. This estimate, which amounted to no less a sum than 760,0971.
Mr. Pitt laid before the House on the 10th of February, and on
the 27th, he introduced the measure in the form of a general
resolution to the following effect : " That it appears to this House,

1786V] , FOR FORTIFYING THE DOCK YARDS. 199
that to provide effectually for securing his majesty's dock yards
at Portsmouth and Plymouth, by a permanent system of fortifica
tion, founded on the most ceconomical principles, and requiring the
smallest number of troops possible to answer the purpose of such
security, is an essential object for the safety of the state, intimately
connected with the general defence of the kingdom, and necessary
for enabling the fleet to act with full vigour and effect, for the
protection of commerce, the support of our distant possessions,
and the prosecution of offensive operations in any war in which the
nation may hereafter be engaged." The resolution was supported
by Lord Hood, the honourable Captain Berkeley, the honourable
James Luttrell, Captain Bowyer, Sir C. Middleton, Mr. J. Haw
kins Browne, and Lord Mahon. In opposition to the measure, it
was moved as an amendment, by Mr. Bastard, and seconded by
Sir W. Lemon, to leave out of the resolution all the words from
the word " house" to the end of the question ; and to insert, " that
fortifications on so extensive a plan as proposed by the board, are
inexpedient." This amendment was defended by Mr. Wallwyn,
General Burgoyne, Captain Macbride, Colonel Barre, Mr. Courte-
nay, the honourable Charles Marsham, Mr. Windham, Lord
North, and by Mr. Sheridan, whose speech upon this occasion was
the subject of much admiration. As soon as he had set down,
Mr. Fox rose and remarked, that his honourable friend
had gone so fully into the whole of the subject, and had
argued it so closely, that it was unnecessary for him to take
up much of the time of the House. He would, therefore,
speak only to a few points, so personal to himself, that the
House, he conceived, would think it highly necessary for him
to take some notice of them. The right honourable the chan-
cellor of the exchequer had pretty strongly insinuated that
the system of fortification, now in contemplation, was a part
of that identical system which he had, when in office, pro
posed to the House. This was not by any means a correct
representation of the fact ; for, in truth, he never had pro
posed any plan of fortification whatever ;%but in the ordnance
estimates of the year 1783, a specific sum was asked for the
purpose of going on with Fort Monkton, and another small
fort which had been begun ; yet, a demur arising upon the
subject, he had agreed in the committee to take the two
charges out of the estimate, and reserve them for future con
sideration; and the remaining part of the estimate was voted
without them. In his opinion, a right honourable colonel
(Barre) had well said, that it was not by fortifying Portsmouth
and Plymouth merely that we were to look for a defence
of the kingdom, either from invasion or dangerous attacks ;
because, undoubtedly, there were other vulnerable parts of
our coast which required attention as well as those proposed
to be fortified.
o 4

293 MR. PITT*S SIOTIOS [Feb. 2"'.
As to the late peace, some observations concerning which
had given such offence to the right honourable colonel, he
should still deny that it had been either a necessary, or a
great and glorious peace ; and contend, *that in the relative
slate of this kingdom, at the time, compared with the state
of other powers, we had a right to expect a much more ad
vantageous treaty. If, however, the peace had been great
and glorious, those who remained in office, and enjoyed a
share in making it, had divided the rewards of it in a man
ner singularly striking. For themselves they had taken
places and emoluments, and left the person, who was sup
posed to have been the principal negotiator of it, in full pos
session of all the encomiums which the warmth of his pane
gyrists could bestow.
But " ease and praise," said Mr. Fox, are the true objects
of genuine ambition. These they have liberally bestowed on
the noble lord (Lansdown) ; these substantial recompences,
these solid honours, have they nobly secured to him, in his
favourite retirement, in his sequestered happiness, in rustic
peace, and undisturbed repose ! For themselves, on the con
trary, have they not reserved all the cares, the anxieties, the
fatigues, the solicitations — and the emoluments of office?
Generous partition ! — substantial fame for their patron ;
mere official reward for themselves !
It is the extreme of absurdity to imagine, on party consi
derations, that the carrying the proposed amendment can
prove an object of the slightest estimation. Who can con
ceive that either I or my friends will be one step nearer the
acquisition of office or of power, whether the Duke of Rich
mond's fortification plan succeeds or fails ? K defeating the
minister, even in points which he has unequivocally supported
to the utmost of his power, could have served us in a party
fight, how comes it that, notwithstanding the numerous de
feats which he has endured, he continues unshaken, and even
more firm than ever ? Has the complete failure of the Irish
propositions in the least affected him as a minister ? Did his
shameful defeat in the question of the Westminster scrutiny
either prejudice him, or serve me, in a ministerial light ? Did
his -abandonment of the cotton tax take an atom from his
consequence? The fact is, he is a minister who thrives by
defeat, and flourishes by disappointment. The country gen
tlemen oppose him upon one occasion, only to give him more
strength upon another ; he is beaten by them upon one sub
ject, only to be assisted by them in a succeeding one ; if he
falls by the landed interest to-day, he is sure to rise by them
to-morrow with added energy and recruited vigour.
In conclusion, he must beg leave to remind the House,

I786.3 FOR FORTIFYING THE DOCK YARDS. 20f
that the right honourable gentleman had, as usual, availed
himself of his machinery in his opening speech. He had
drawn into his argument the American war, and the coali
tion. He was a little surprised that the poor India bill had
escaped. Those topics, however, the right honourable gen
tleman might bring forward as often as he thought proper.
No part of his conduct was he ashamed of; and although
clamour, artfully raised, and industriously kept alive, might
for a while put a false and injurious construction upon it,
time would dissipate the cloud of prejudice, and convince all
men how egregiously they had been duped and deluded.
And here he should avow, that he retained all his great party
principles upon constitutional questions ; and that it was this
circumstance which formed the line between him and the
right honourable gentleman. I stand, said Mr. Fox, upon
this great principle. I say that the people of England have
a right to control the executive power, by the interference
of their representatives in this House of parliament. The
right honourable gentleman maintains the contrary. He is
the cause of our pohtical enmity ; to this I adhere ; to this I
pledge myself, and upon this ground I mean to vote for the
amendment. After a long discussion of the subject, the House divided on the
original motion, as moved by Mr. Pitt :
Tellers. Tellers.
v„.„ S Mr- Steele 7 < XT„ f Lord Maitland 1 *„
Yeas JMr.M. A. Taylor} ^9— Noes |Capt.Macbride j l69-
The numbers being equal, Mr. Speaker Cornwall said, that
although he should have wished to have stated at large his reasons
for the opinion he had formed on the question, yet, after so long
a debate, he had too much respect for the House to take up any
more of their time ; and therefore declared himself with the noes.
So it passed in the negative.
Mr. Fox then said, that the motions which his right ho
nourable friend, Mr. Burke, was to have made on the pre
ceding day, for papers relative to Mr. Hastings, could not be
made before Wednesday ; on which day they probably would
be made by his right honourable friend, who was then pre
vented by illness from attending his duty in that House — a
fortunate circumstance for the right honourable the Speaker,
as it had given him an opportunity, which he otherwise would
not have had, of gaining immortal honours, by his casting
vote upon the subject of fortifications.

202 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. [March 2.

Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax.
March i.
THE House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole
House, to consider of the several petitions which had been
presented praying for the repeal of the shop tax, Sir VVatkin Lewes
moved, " That the chairman be directed to move the House, that
leave be given to bring in a bill to repeal an act passed during the
last session of parliament, entitled, ' An act for granting certain
duties on shops within Great Britain.' " The motion was sup
ported by Aldermen Sawbridge, Xewnham, Townshend, Ham-
met, and Watson, Sir Joseph Mawbey, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Drake,
Sir Gregory Page Turner, and Mr. Fox ; and opposed by Sir
Edward Astley, Mr. Loveden, Mr. Powys, Mr. W. Stanhope, Mr.
Pitt, and Mr. Grigsby. In reply to Mr." Pitt,
Mr. Fox said, that the right honourable gentleman might
rest assured that he admitted, without even the slightest ex
ception, the justice of his arguments in favour of the necessity
of perpetually endeavouring to introduce whatever might tend
to improve the national revenue, and of refusing — unless
the most unanswerable reasons could justify a contrary pro
cedure — to relinquish a tax, from the produce of which a
considerable sum might be looked for. So fully was he per
suaded that his sentiments became not only every minister,
but every member of that House, and so deeply was he, at the
same time, convinced, that, in matters of taxation, the unpo
pularity of any particular impost ought not to be the reason
for its being abandoned, that much as he professed of respect
for his constituents of Westminster, and still more, as he felt
of regard and reverence for those whom he considered as his
first constituents, the people at large, whose interests he held
himself bound to watch over, and, as far as in him lay, to
protect and defend within those walls ; yet, notwithstanding
the numerous petitions on the table, and notwithstand.ng the
instructions which he had received from those whom he im
mediately represented, and their known wishes, he made no
scruple to declare, that he would have supported the right
honourable gentleman in resisting a motion for the repeal of
the shop tax, had he not been fully convinced that the tax
was radically bad ; that it was founded in the grossest par
tiality and injustice ; and that no modification whatever, much
less the sort of modification proposed by the right honourable
gentleman, could cure its defects, or render it fit to be en
dured. The motion for its repeal should, therefore, have his

I786.3 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. 203
firm support, and in giving his vote for a repeal of the act in
toto, he hoped he should not be considered as an enemy to
the revenue. When the tax had been originally proposed,
he objected to it, and then declared, that, though the right
honourable gentleman chose to call it a shop tax, it was in
fact an additional house tax, partially applied to houses, of
which shops made a part. That was, undoubtedly, the state
of the case, and consequently it was not the first, but the se
cond shop tax ; for the tax on houses had operated partially,
and to the disadvantage of shopkeepers; inasmuch as shop
keepers, compared to all • other descriptions of householders,
paid by far the highest rents of any persons in the kingdom.
To lay a new burden on the shoulders of that description of
people, who were too heavily burdened before, was oppressive
and unjust ; and that, therefore, were there no other, was a
strong reason, and indeed it ought to operate as an unan
swerable one with the committee, for agreeing to the motion
for a repeal of the act.
The right honourable gentleman had put the case, if houses
were to rise in rent considerably all over the kingdom some
years hence, what would then be the situation of shopkeepers,
and would they have any reason to complain that they paid
higher rents than they did at present ? If the right honourable
gentleman meant merely, that if money grew cheaper, and all
sorts of property fetched a larger proportion of money in price
p'roportionably, in that case things would just remain in the
situation in which they stood at present; but if the right
honourable gentleman meant (and so indeed he must mean,
if he meant any thing) that the houses of shopkeepers only
were at any given period to be raised in their rents all over
the kingdom, he had then very fairly described the additional
tax in question, because that tax operating upon shopkeepers
only, did what the right honourable gentleman had stated : it
raised the rents and swelled the capitals of shopkeepers' houses
all over the kingdom, at the same time that it raised the rents
of no other houses. How extreme was the injustice of select
ing that useful body of people, the shopkeepers, as objects not
only of separate and distinct, but of oppressive and unjust tax
ation ! With regard to the two points, which the right ho
nourable gentleman had laboured so much to establish,
namely, that the tax was not personal, and that it might be
laid on the consumer by the shopkeeper who paid it in the
first instance, both those positions must he deny in the most
unequivocal manner, and declare that the tax was a direct
personal tax on the shopkeeper, and that it was utterly impos
sible for him to repay himself by laying it on the consumer,
without putting the public not merely to five times the charge

204 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. [March 2.
of it, (as an honourable member had stated to have been the
case in regard to the duty imposed on wine some years since),
but to forty, or perhaps one hundred times the charge. On
this occasion, he must beg leave to remind the committee, that
nothing could be more easy than to ascertain exactly to what
the sum of additional duty per hogshead upon wine came, and
what would prove the amount of that duty when divided into
gallons, and from gallons into bottles. If, then, in a case so
easy, obvious, and intelligible, the retail dealer had bare
facedly charged the public five times as much for every bottle
as he paid to the exchequer, what an advantage must not be
unavoidably made where the distribution of the tax was pri
vately laid on a variety of small articles ! In fact, the con
sumer, if he paid the tax at all, must imperceptibly and in
sensibly, even to the shopkeeper, pay it over and over and
over again ; but he defied the right honourable gentleman to
prove that any shopkeeper either had, or could charge it to
the consumer. Being therefore undoubtedly a personal tax,
he should advise the right honourable gentleman, in this in
stance at least, to give way, and offer some tax, less exception
able,, in its stead; in short, the tax was so radically bad, that
no modification could cureits defects.
The right honourable gentleman, in the greater part of his
argument, had endeavoured to prove that the tax was not
personal, and that it must find its level, and fall on the con
sumer. If this were true, what was there to recommend
his .modifications ? The right honourable gentleman had
stated that he would take off and modify the portion of the
tax to be paid by all shopkeepers who lived in houses at less
rents than twenty and twenty-five pounds, which would con
siderably lighten the load, and exonerate the shopkeeper.
Would it ? Of what would it exonerate him ? Of the money
paid by the consumer ! For if the consumer was to pay the
whole of the tax, the consumer would be exonerated by the
modification proposed, and not the shopkeeper. In like man
ner, the generous and compassionate bounty of the right ho
nourable gentleman, in fact, amounted to nothing ; because
if the consumer really paid the tax, the poor shopkeeper, who
was not to pay towards the tax, if he was excused the payment
of parochial taxes, was excused from paying that which, ac
cording to the right honourable gentleman's argument, was
to come out of the pocket of another.
The right honourable gentleman had thought proper to ha-
zard the remark, that the tax would, no doubt, find its level ;
but that the shopkeepers had not yet found out how to make
its distribution. This was an extraordinary thing to say of
men, the daily business of whose lives was to lay out large sums
*5

I786.3 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. 205
to purchase articles in the gross, and to draw back and collect
the sums so expended by a multitude of minute profits. How
strange and idle to impute the sort of ignorance in question to
those men, who, of all others, were most in the habits of
making such a distribution as that which it had been said
they had not discovered how to make ! In fact, the laying the
tax on the consumer at all was impossible. Upon this occasion
he should instance his own receipt tax, which every body
knew was to this day paid by the person who received the
money, although he had a legal right to oblige the person
paying it to pay for the recefot.
Mr. Fox declared, that though he did not pretend to be
above popularity, but, on the contrary, was shocked and af
fected when it fell to his lot to become, unpopular, yet he
would, at all times, < in spite of unpopularity, stand up an ad
vocate for a tax after it was once proposed, unless, as in the
present instance, he thought the tax radically bad, and unfit
to remain unrepealed. The present tax was a personal tax,
and at the same time partook .of the nature of a tax on the
consumer in the worst manner, because it left the power of
distribution solely at the discretion of the shopkeeper, and,
what was more exceptionable, to be by him secretly exercised.
The requisite to make a personal tax palatable was, to lay it
so that its operation should be general, if not universal. The
servant's tax was an unexceptionable personal tax, but, he
feared, ill collected. The argument of a worthy alderman
was certainly well-grounded in regard to the principle of tax
ation, though it went a great way farther than he was ready to
go upon the subject; but the right honourable gentleman, he
thought, went much farther himself, when he had asserted
that nine tenths of the revenue depended upon taxes raised
upon the principle which the honourable alderman had repro
bated — the principle of imposing mere personal taxes, and
those such as did not affect themselves. Whenever taxes
were under consideration, one material defect in the construc
tion of that House manifested itself, and that was, that the
city of London, which paid, in general, so large a share of all
the taxes, had not a greater proportion of representatives to
secure it its due weight in determining of what taxes should
consist. The right honourable gentleman, notwithstanding,
deseryed a tribute of applause for such modifications as he
intended to introduce ; and, for his own part, having a total
aversion to the whole of the bill, he should be glad to discover
that, with the aid of the right honourable gentleman, some
portion of it might become repealed, if it were vain to hope to
see it actually thrqwn out of parliament. An event of this last
desirable and happy nature would rescue the shopkeepers o

206 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. [March 29.
London and Westminster from the burden of an almost into
lerable grievance. Anxious to emancipate them from such
unmerited oppression, he felt it a duty which, upon the pre
sent occasion, he should most chearfully fulfil, to vote in fa
vour of the motion for an absolute repeal of the act passing
during the course of the preceding session.
The committee divided :
For the repeal of the shop tax - 93
Against it - - - 176
The motion was consequently rejected ; but leave was given to
bring in a bill to explain and amend the said act.

Mr. Pitt's Plan for the Reduction of the National
Debt.
March 29.
YEARLY in this session, Mr. Pitt had taken notice of that part of
-*— ' his majesty's.speech which related to the necessity of providing
for the diminution of the national debt ; he had at the same time given
the House to understand, that such was the present flourishing
condition of the revenue, that the annual national income would
not only equal the annual national disbursements, but would leave
a surplus of considerable magnitude ; this surplus, he said, he
meant to form into a permanent fund, to be constantly and invaria
bly applied to the liquidation of the public debt. In pursuance of
this information to the House, and in order to ascertain the amount
of the surplus in question, Mr. Pitt, previous to his entering into
the state of the finances, or ways and means for the present j'ear,
moved, " That the several accounts and other papers presented
that session, relating to the public income and expenditure, be
referred to the consideration of a select committee, and that the
said committee be directed to examine and report to the House,
what might be expected to be the annual amount of the income
and expenditure in future." This motion was unanimously agreed
to, and the select committee having framed their report, laid it
before the House on the 21st of March. Mr. Pitt on the 29th,
together with the supplies and ways and means for the present
year, brought the consideration of the national debt, and his pro
position for the diminution of it, formally before the House. After
entering at great length into the actual and probable resources of
the country, Mr. Pitt said, there was little doubt but that the
growing resources of the country, and the contingent receipts of
the different sums he had mentioned, would be more than suffi-

1786.3 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. 207
cient, without a loan, to discharge the exceedings which our
establishments, during the next three or four years, would amount
to, beyond their permanent level, as stated in the report. But if
it should be otherwise, he nevertheless was of opinion, that money
should rather be borrowed for the discharge of those extraordinary
demands, than that the institution of the fund in question should
be postponed, or infringed upon at any time after it was esta
blished. Mr. Pitt next proceeded to explain the mode he meant
to adopt, in order to insure the due application of this fund to its
destined object : he proposed, he said, to vest in a certain number
of commissioners the full power of disposing of it in the purchase
of stock for the public in their own names. These commissioners
should receive the annual million by quarterly payments of 250,0001.
to be issued out of the exchequer before any other money, except
the interest of the national debt itself; by these provisions, the
fund would be secured, and no deficiencies in the national reve
nues could affect it, but such must be separately provided for by
parliament. The accumulated compound interest on a million
yearly, together with the annuities that would fall into that fund,
would, he said, in twenty-eight years, amount to such a sum as
would leave a surplus of four millions annually, to be applied, if
necessary, to the exigencies of the state. In appointing the com
missioners he should, he said, endeavour to chuse persons of such
weight and character as corresponded with the importance of the
commission they were to execute. The speaker of the House of
Commons, the chancellor of the exchequer, the master of the
rolls, the goyernor and deputy governor of the bank of England,
and the accountant general of the high court of chancery, were
persons who, from their several situations, he • should think highly
proper to be of the number. Mr. Pitt concluded by moving,
" That the sum of one million per annum be granted to his ma
jesty, to be vested in commissioners, and to be by them applied to
the reduction of the national debt, and that the same be charged
Upon, and made payable out of, the surplusses, excesses, over
plus monies, and other revenues, composing the fund commonly
called the Sinking Fund."
Mr. Fox observed, that the elaborate and far extended
speech of the right honourable gentleman, whilst it reminded
him how much time had elapsed, suggested also a conviction
of the impropriety of trespassing, at the present advanced
hour, too long upon the attention of the House; but in the
outset of what he had to say, he begged leave to declare that
no man in existence was, or ever had been, a greater friend
to the principle of a sinking fund than he was, and ever had
shewn himself from the first moment of his political life. He
agreed most perfectly with the right honourable gentleman in
his ideas of the necessity of establishing an effective sinking
fund for the purpose of applying it in diminution of the
national debt, however much he might differ with him in

2o8 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. [March 29.
respect to the most prudent and useful mode of making the
application, and however much he might differ with him as
to many parts of his speech, and a variety of observations it
contained. With respect to the conduct of the committee to whom the
papers had been referred, he should not scruple to declare
that their mode of taking averages had been not only diffe
rent from that of every former committee, but totally the re
verse of that which had ever been deemed the fairest mode
of taking an average. In illustration of this remark, he in
stanced the produce of the tax on malt, in averaging which,
for six years, the committee had stated, that a particular
year (the year 1782) was uncommonly deficient. Now, the
use of an average had ever been supposed to arise from the
averaging a number of years produce, among which years
there might be years of extraordinary deficiency, or years of
extraordinary plenty. He next pointed out the fallacy of
stating the receipt of the present year, which happened to
be a year of uncommon rise of revenue, and opposing to it,
not the actual expenditure of the present year grounded on
the votes of that House; but the probable expenditure of the
year 1 790. He asked, whether that was a fair comparison of
the annual receipt with the annual expenditure, and whether —
as the right honourable gentleman had admitted, what in
deed no person could deny, viz, that 6oo,oool. more had
been voted for the navy, and 400,0001. more for the army,
this year, than appeared under the head of expenditure — it
was not manifest, that so far from there being a surplus of
900,000!. there was not a deficiency? He reminded the
committee of the difference last year between himself and the
right honourable gentleman, respecting their reasoning upon
the balances of certain quarters, which had been selected as
the most favourable quarters, and said, it now plainly ap
peared, that if he had at that time calculated the balances,
that would result upon the whole of the four quarters, when
the year should be completed, somewhat too low, the right
honourable gentleman, it was evident, had calculated them
much more too high. He reminded them also, that when
' he had said in argument, on one of those occasions, that he
believed there would be some balance, the right honourable
gentleman had echoed the words " some balance" with an air
of disdain, as if he (Mr. Fox) had talked with ridicule or with
contempt of a matter which it was certain would turn out to
be a monstrous balance. The fact was now before the com
mittee, and he begged leave to ask whether it was not true,
that so far from there being some balance for the present year
there was none at all ? Though it had turned out to be in

I786.3 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. 209
both particulars exactly as he had stated it would turn out, he
mentioned them not with any view to triumph over the right
honourable gentleman, but merely to shew that he had been
right before. The right honourable gentleman had observed,
that i,8oo,oool. for the navy, included 18,000 seamen, a
larger number than had ever been known in a permanent peace
establishment in the most flourishing state of this country.
He could wish to know what the right honourable gentleman
saw in the situation of the affairs of Europe that could in
duce him to imagine that a less numerous establishment of
seamen would be sufficient, or a more contracted navy than
1, 8oo,oool. could provide? For his part, he saw much that
served to prove that a still greater naval establishment was ne
cessary : for much had of late happened, which looked as if
all Europe was combining to.form engagements hostile to this
country, and detrimental to its interests at present, and its
efforts in case of a future war ; while no transaction that had
lately taken place in any of the foreign courts wore a favoura
ble aspect. Under such a period to say we had a more power
ful navy than had ever been known in time of peace, in the
most flourishing of former periods, was saying nothing. Had
we a navy sufficient to cope with the combined marine of the
maritime powers ? If we could not effect such a purpose, we
fell short of what was, in his opinion, indispensably necessary
to our immediate safety and our future security and well being
as a naval power. He agreed nevertheless in the propriety of
dedicating the surplus fund to the diminution of the national
debt, and whether the whole of the report was true, or whe
ther it was erroneous, he should still be of opinion, that it
was right to pay off a part of the national debt, and highly
proper to begin doing it immediately, even if the consequence
were, that the sinking fund was not found equal to it; in
which case, he held it to be the duty of that House to make
good the sum so appropriated to that important service, and
to continue so to do, even if they were annually obliged to
impose new taxes on the subject. When he said this, how
ever, he begged to be rightly understood, as to how far he
agreed in respect to the present plan ; it was merely to the
commencement of some plan; and a better one than that pro
posed, might easily be adopted. The parts of the plan that
he disapproved were two-fold, the one, making the sum ap
propriated unalienable in the time of war, the other, making
the obligation to pay off the debt general, and not pledging
or binding it closer. He pointed out various disadvantages
that might result from tying up the sum in time of war, and
contended, that as the committee and the object of their insti
tution were not bound down to any specific point, both were
VOL. III. p

.2 1 0 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. [March 2p.
liable to be annihilated by a future parliament. He reminded
the House of the mode of the original institution of a plan
for paying off a part of the national debt, which had been
by a subscription of individuals, to whom the faith of par
liament had been pledged to pay off certain specific portions
at stated periods. He dwelt on the difference between the
two modes, observing, that when the nation or when parlia
ment stood bound to individuals, the pledge was held as
sacred as the pledge to pay the interest of the national debt
at present, or the annuities now payable ; and, undoubtedly,
nothing short of a national bankruptcy would prevent the sums
engaged from being paid to individual subscribers ; whereas
upon the conditions on which the committee would stand,
what should hinder a future minister, in a future war, when
the exigency of affairs might require additional burdens to
be imposed on the subject, from coming down to that House
and proposing to repeal the act authorising the institution of
the committee, and enabling government to apply all the
money and stock in their hands to the public service ? What
should hinder the House from agreeing to the proposition? Or
was it at all likely that, under the exigency of the moment,
they would not immediately agree to it, when so much mo
ney could be easily got at, and when they could so readily
save themselves from the odious and unpleasant task of im
posing new taxes on themselves and their constituents ?
With regard to the chancellor of the exchequer being one of
the commissioners, he thought it perfectly right, that who
ever held that office should be one at least in such a commis
sion. The chancellor of the exchequer was an officer in
whom that House reposed great confidence in respect to mat
ters of finance, and who certainly ought to have an imme
diate connection with the diminution of that debt, the crea
tion of which had unavoidably been an act of his own, in the
necessary discharge of his official duty. From the various
guards which the right honourable gentleman had suggested
.it to be his intention to put upon the committee, it was ob
vious that he saw the suspicions to which it would be liable,
and therefore, Mr. Fox declared, the more guards put upon
it the better. Unfortunately, however, the more the guards,
the less the ceconomy of the system. He expressed some
doubts whether the compelling them to lay out the money
on certain days might not raise the market; and whether it
might not happen that on some of those days when they might
be obliged to buy, there might be no sellers, and consequently
the Committee become compelled to force the market, and
by so doing, raise the price so high, that in such instances
all the benefit would be lost to the public. The right ho-
!3

5 786.3 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. 21 1
nourable gentleman had talked of spreading the money into
several sums, and by that means reducing each so small as to
avert as much as possible the effects he had stated as probable
to happen. Of that he approved, but he could by no
means agree that the committee were to act a public
part. The fact was, they were to become private stock
brokers with the public money. He descanted on this,
and stated his reasons for wishing their acts to be as pub
lic as possible; which were, he said, the only means that
he knew of to save them from a good deal of that suspicion
to which it was easy to see they would be exposed. Mr. Fox
again adverted to the report and to the statements made by
the chancellor of the exchequer in the course of his speech,
several of which he combated, and endeavoured to disprove.
He mentioned the necessity of providing new taxes in lieu
of such as had failed, that should produce the sums for which
they* had been given, and by that means preserve the sinking
fund whole and entire. In order the more amply to point out
the necessity for this, he animadverted for some time on the
actual produce of the different taxes of the last year. The
shop-tax, for instance — which, he said, he should ever hold
to be an odious, oppressive, and unjust personal tax — had
been nominally given for i2o,oool., whereas it appeared from
the assessments that if they were all paid, (which undoubtedly
was not likely to be the case,) the produce would amount to
no more than 70,0001., and when the modifications lately made
to it, came into operation, that 70,0001. would be reduced to
50,000!., so that a tax taken at i2o,oool. would produce no
more than 50,0001. In that case, and in all cases like it, he
held it to be the duty of a chancellor of the exchequer to pro
pose either a new tax that would be efficient for i2o,oool. and
repeal the shop-tax, or a tax that would be efficient for the
70,000k the sum which the shop-tax fell short of producing.
During the war he had repeatedly held language urging the
necessity for the deficiencies of the new taxeis being made
good by other taxes, and the answer of his noble friend in
the blue ribbon had always been,- that during the war, they
must get on as well as they could, but that when peace
should come, that would be the fit opportunity for making
good the deficiencies on the war taxes. For that answer there
was some reason ; but the right honourable the chancellor
of the exchequer had not the same excuse ; and yet all his
taxes did not produce much more than one half of the sums
for which they had been given. As to the commutation
tax, he must wish to ask the right honourable gentleman if
the greater consumption of tea that it had occasioned in this
p 2

212 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. [March 29.
kingdom, as well as the greater consumption of a far greater
proportion upon the whole than ever of teas of the higher
sort, rjuality and price, which increased the necessity of the
East India company to send out to China and expend con
siderably more in the purchase of teas than ever had gone to
China, was any matter of solid satisfactionxto him, as guardian
of the commerce and revenues of Great Britain ? Was it by
such extensions of trade, that he wished to be considered as a
friend to the revenue or commerce of the kingdom ? Or
would he assume any merit for having extended a trade,
before so disadvantageous to this country, in respect to exports
and imports ? He thought it fair to warn the right honour
able gentleman on so important a consideration ; and he would
leave it to himself to draw the necessary conclusion from the
circumstance. The right honourable gentleman had said, he
observed, that our resources were near cracking just before
the war was brought to a conclusion : fbr his part, he never
had been of that opinion, nor ever had stated that he was :
but What sort of melancholy reflection was held out to the
public by his committee, when it was the clear deduction from
their statements, that the permanent peace establishment was
not to be expected before the year 1 791 — eight years after the
conclusion of the war ? Mr. Fox declared it as his opinion, that
with good management, the expences of the war might have
been sooner wound up. He recapitulated his principal ob
jections to the plan proposed, and said, he thought they were
considerably weakened by not making the fund unalienable in
time of war. He entered into a good deal of argument to
prove, that twenty-seven years was too long a period to look
forward to for the effect of the plan ; as, before that period,
it was not improbable we might have another war; and a
variety of circumstances might occur which would operate as
temptations to a future chancellor of the exchequer, to pro
pose to a future House of Commons to repeal the act, annul
the institution, and divert the appropriation of its stock to
the immediate services of the year : he therefore again, in
very forcible terms, recommended the other mode of proceed
ing by individual subscription. In the course of his speech
he entered largely into the detail of the argument of Mr. Pitt,
assuring the House that however difficult they might think the
subject, and therefore be loth to listen to it, or to endeavour
to make themselves master of it, nothing was more easy ; there
was not the smallest conjuration in it, and he that ran might
read. Mr. Fox spoke rather loosely, but he displayed, as
usual on budget days, great ingenuity, and a wonderful fa
miliarity with the subject of finance in all its branches.

1786.3 PLAN FOR REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. 213
The motion was carried in the affirmative without a division, and
leave was given to bring in a bill according to the said resolution.
The bill was brought in upon the 3d of April, and on the motion
for the second reading upon the 6th,
Mr. Fox remarked, that his objections were not so weighty
as to induce him to wish that the bill might never come to a
second reading. They arose against the mode of creating
the fund: the principle of the fund itself he highly approved,
but it was commenced in error ; for instead of there being
even some surplus this year, on a comparison of the receipt
with the expenditure, it would be found there was none.
What he approved in the plan was, that it would oblige the
minister, whoever he might be, whenever he made a new
loan, to take especial care to provide a fund to answer it.
Instead, however, of applying an imaginary surplus to the pur
pose of instituting a fund, he would have advised the creating
a million or more by additional burdens ; the fund would then
have rested on solid grounds, which at present it did not do.
He would have advised, also, the taking of individual sub
scriptions, as a better means of paying the debt ; for as it was
proposed, he feared that the public would buy dearer and sell
cheaper, than any other buyers and sellers in the market.
Another objection he had to the proposed plan was, the tying
up the money even during a time of war ; but that was an
objection upon which he had more doubt than upon his
former one, though, like that, it did not prevent his voting
for the second reading of the bill. Mr. Fox then entered
into the discussion of the suggested idea, of applying the un
claimed dividends at the bank to the public service, and said,
that the utmost advantage which could be made of that pro
ject, would be, that the public would have the benefit of the
interest of the money ; for the principal of the dividends they
could not assume and alienate, as the public would indis
putably be bound to make the principal good as soon as ever
it was claimed. V
On the 1 2th of May, the day appointed for reconsidering the
report of the committee on the national debt bill,
Mr. Fox rose to move a clause, which he thought would
conduce to the improvement of the bill. His great objection
had been to the making the sinking fund to be created by the
bill unalienable in time of war from the purpose of paying off
the debt, and the objection rested on the difficulty the country
might be thereby thrown into in consequence of being obliged
to make a new loan. What he should wish, therefore, was,
p 3

214 ARREARS OF THE CIVIL LIST. [April 6.
that whenever a new loan should hereafter be made, the mi
nister should come forward, and not only propose taxes that
were efficacious and productive to pay the interest of the loan,
but also sufficient to make good to the sinking fund, what
should have been taken from it, and likewise to empower the
commissioners to accept the loan, or so much of it as they
should have cash, belonging to the public, in their hands
to pay for. Mr. Fox explained this latter part of his object
by stating, that he meant that if, when a new loan of six
million was proposed, there should be one million in the
hands, of the commissioners, in such case the commissioners
should take a million of the loan, and the bonus or douceur
upon that million should be received by them for the public ;
so that in fact the public would only have five million to
borrow. Having expatiated for some little time on the benefit
and advantages that would accrue to the public from this
plan, and stated that he had shewn his proposed clause to
the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer, who
approved it, and thought exactly as he did on the subject, and
that the bill so amended would be a good precept to posterity
to follow up in example, Mr. Fox brought up the clause
empowering the commissioners, in case of a new loan, to take
as much of it on behalf of the public, as they had money in
their hands to satisfy.
The clause was received by Mr. Pitt with the strongest marks
of approbation. The bill was read a third time on the 15th of
May, and carried up to the Lords, where it also passed without
meeting with any material opposition.

Arrears of the Civil List.
April 6th.
MR. Gilbert reported from the committee of supply the follow
ing resolution, " That a sum not exceeding 30,000/. be
granted to his majesty, to discharge the arrears and debts due and
owing upon the civil list, on the 5th of January 1786."
Mr. Fox remarked, that although he did not entertain the
most distant idea of discountenancing any grant in favour
of his majesty, he could not forbear to express his astonish
ment at finding a demand of that kind made by the crown
after the promise contained in the speech from the throne,

1786.] ARREARS OF THE CIVIL LIST. 21 J
at the beginning of the session of 1782, that there should in
future be no exceeding in that department; the words of
which promise were as explicit as words could possibly be ;
and ran thus: " I have carried into execution the several
reductions of my civil list expences, directed by an act of the
last session. I have introduced a farther reform into other
departments, and suppressed several sinecure places in them.
I have by this means so regulated my establishments, that my
expence shall not in future exceed my income." These words
were a part of the speech at the opening of the first session
after a noble earl (of Shelburne) was first lord of the trea
sury, and the right honourable gentleman opposite to him
chancellor of the exchequer ; and it was evident from the
subject of the motion then before the House, that the pro
mise contained in them had not been performed; so that
either his majesty's ministers had advised him to make a
promise to parliament which it was impossible for him to
keep ; or they had advised him to break a promise which he
might have adhered to; either of which actions were highly
criminal. — He said he could not avoid touching on a subject
which he understood had been mentioned the day before —
the establishment of his royal highness the Prince of Wales ;
and he professed that it was not so much from motives of
gratitude for the confidence and condescension with which
his royal highness honoured him, nor from the affection
which he bore him for his many amiable qualities, but because
he really thought it highly necessary for the honour of the
crown and the advantage of the nation, that the heir-appa
rent should be enabled to live in splendor and in ease : for
there could be no friend to the monarchical part of our con
stitution, who did not wish to make a full provision for sup
porting the dignity of a person so nearly connected with the
monarchy. In the reign of George I. although the civil list
at that time was only 700,000/. a year, 100,000/. of it was
allowed to the Prince of Wales, afterwards George II. ; and
yet, now that the civil list was so considerably increased as
to amount to 900,000/. a year, besides an additional aid of
50,000/. in amount at least, arising from the salaries of the
offices suppressed by the bill of his right honourable friend
(Mr. Burke) falling in, the income of the Prince of Wales
was only 50,000/. If his majesty could not make 950,000/.
cover his expences, how could it be expected that his royal
highness the Prince of Wales could live upon 50,000/. ?
His royal highness's household establishment was more ex
pensive, compared with his contracted income, than that of
his majesty, compared with the large amount of the civil list,
and the other sums which came in aid of it ; 50,000/. was,
p 4

2l6 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
he confessed, equal to the establishment first granted to
Frederick Prince of Wales; but that prince's establishment
was known to be extremely inadequate, and was therefore
afterwards increased : and, besides, the expence of living had
risen considerably since that time. He knew no proper
method of bringing the business before the House, except by
message from the crown, and he earnestly hoped ministers
would advise his majesty accordingly. If they did not, he
should himself venture to introduce the business previous to
the rising of parliament.
The resolution was agreed to by the House.

Articles of Charge against Mr. Hastings — Rohilla
Charge.
ON the 4th of April Mr. Burke, in his place, charged Warren
Hastings, esq. the late governor general of Bengal, with
sundry high crimes and misdemeanors, and delivered at the table
the nine first articles of his charge, and the rest in the course of the
following week, amounting in all to twenty two in number. On
the 26th Mr. Hastings requested by petition to the House to be
permitted to be heard in his defence to the several articles, and
that lie might be allowed a copy of the same. Mr. Burke de
clared his wish that every reasonable degree of indulgence should
be shewn to Mr. Hastings : he should therefore readily consent to
his being heard in his defence, though he did not think it quite
agreeable to the regularity of their proceeding, that he should be
heard in the present stage of it. With respect to a copy of the
charges, he believed there was no precedent of such an indul
gence being granted. It was well known that it was his original
intention to have gone through the whole of his evidence before
he delivered in his articles, and to let the charge grow out of the
evidence ; but the House, in its wisdom, had thought proper to
vote a different mode of proceeding, and to direct that the charges
should be first made; and that he should then proceed to sub
stantiate them by evidence. Hence he had been under the neces
sity of new arranging his plan, and of making his charges as com
prehensive as possible, taking in and stating every thing with which
private information could furnish him. In their present form they
were to be considered merely as a general collection of accusatory
facts, intermixed with a variety of collateral matter, both of fact
and reasoning, necessary for their elucidation ; and the committee
to which they were to be referred would necessarily find occasion
12

1786.3 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 217
to alter them materially. For this reason also he thought it would
be highly improper to give a copy of them, in the present stage of
the business, to Mr. Hastings.
Mr. Fox observed, that the charges before the House were
not articulated charges, but merely general collections of ac
cusatory facts, out of which the real charges were to be ex
tracted, and every body knew, that even after the House had
decided upon those real charges, articles short, specific, and
pointed, were to be drawn up and sent to the Housg of
Lords, as the grounds of impeachment. Unless a precedent
could be adduced, to prove that under such peculiar circum
stances copies of charges had been granted by that House to
a party accused, he should be of opinion that the House
could not grant charges, loosely drawn, and which the com
mittee, to whom they were to be referred, would necessarily
alter materially.
Mr. Pitt was willing to admit that the charges contained criminal
matter, and such as it was highly incumbent on the House to in
vestigate and bring to a most strict enquiry ; but still they were so
filled with aggravations and unconnected details ; they were so
confused and complicated, so irrelevant, and in many places so
unintelligible, that he thought it absolutely impossible for the
House at large to be able to separate accurately and distinctly those
parts which were worthy of attention, from such as were entirely
foreign from the main design.
Mr. Fox remarked, that it could only be from want of
leisure that the right honourable gentleman had not been
able to understand the charges laid upon the table by his
right honourable friend. He believed no other man in that
House, who had looked into them ever so slightly, would
rise and say he did not understand them. Those without
doors, as well as those within, who had read them, would
not deny that they were perfectly intelligible, however expla
natory — for explanatory they necessarily must be. With
regard to their not being relevant, he expected it would not
be denied him, that the charges in their present cast and
form contained much matter of criminal offence. That was
all that was necessary, because it was sufficient for the com
mittee to whom they were referred, to report that ; and then
it became the duty of the House to draw out the criminal
parts and shape them into articles, as fit grounds of impeach
ment to be presented to the House of Lords. Whatever al
teration might appear necessary, was matter for subsequent
consideration. He described the difficulties his right honour
able friend had experienced in his progress to that stage of

21 8 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
the business, and said, that no man with less abilities than
those of his right honourable friend could have surmounted
them. As soon as he had brought the business in one shape,
it was stated by the other side of the House, that the form of
proceeding was wrong, and that another form must be
adopted. His right honourable friend thereupon accom
modated himself to the new mode,, and followed it. The
next time the business came on, the other side changed it
again, and again his right honourable friend adopted it ; still
new modes were proposed, new delays invented, new artifices
played off to retard, impede, and embarrass. But the House
and the public must see through the whole. The right
honourable gentleman opposite to him had admitted that the
charges bore on their face and in their body, much matter Of
heinous offence, but he chose to complain of confusion and ir
relevancy, and had gone the length of stating that they were
in some parts utterly unintelligible. Why were these com
plaints urged ? Because the guilt imputed was clearly under
stood ; because it was felt ; because its impression could not
be concealed. In spite of every objection conjured up for
the sake of disguising the real effect of the charges, the cri
minal matter stood prominent and could not be denied.
Some people pretended not to understand the charges, be
cause they understood them too well ! They pretended to
see no guilt in them, because they saw too much !
The question was at length put and carried.
June i.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole
House to consider further of the several articles of charge of
high crimes and misdemeanors against Warren Hastings, esq. late
governor general of Bengal, Mr. Burke brought forward the
Rohilla charge, and moved the following resolution thereupon :
" That the committee having considered the said article, and ex
amined evidence on the same, are of opinion that there are
grounds sufficient to charge Warren Hastings with high crimes and
misdemeanors upon the matter of the said article." Mr. Burke
introduced his motion with a solemn invocation of the justice of
the House, which he said was particularly due, as well to the
people of Great Britain, because the national credit and character
were deeply involved, and implicated in the issue of the business
about to be brought before them, as for the sake of their own
honour and dignity. He described with great force the nature of
the question to be decided ; declaring emphatically, that it was an
appeal iYora British power to British justice. The charge, he said,
must either condemn the accuser or the accused : there was no
medium. The result must be, that Warren Hastings, esq. had
been guilty of gross, enormous, and flagitious crimes ; or, that he

1786.3 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 2IQ
was a base, calumniatory, wicked, and malicious accuser. He en
larged upon the degree of guilt ascribable to that man who should
dare presume to take up the time of the House by rashly coming
forward, and urging groundless and ill-founded charges against a
person who had been intrusted with high and exalted offices in the
government of a part of our territories, much larger and more ex
tensive than the whole island of Great Britain. There were, he
observed, but three sources of false accusation, viz. ignorance, inad
vertency, or passion; by none of these three had he been actuated ;
ignorance he could not plead, because he knew the subject as fully
as the labour and study of six years could make him know it :
inadvertency as little could he be charged with, because he had
deliberately proceeded, and examined every step he took in the
business with the most minute and cautious attention : and, least
of all, could it be said, with any colour of truth, that he had been
actuated by passion. Anger indeed he had felt, but surely not a
blameable anger; for who ever heard of an enquiring anger, a
digesting anger, a collating anger, an examining anger, or a
selecting anger ? " The anger he had felt was, an uniform, steady,
public anger, but never a private anger ; that anger which five
years ago warmed his breast, he felt precisely the same and un
impaired at that moment. Not all the various occurrences of the
last five years, neither five changes of administration, nor the
retirement of the summer, nor the occupation of winter, neither his
public nor his private avocations, nor the snow, which in that period
had so plentifully showered on his head, had been able to cool that
anger, which he acknowledged to feel as a public man, but which,
as a private individual, he had never felt for one moment. — He
observed, that the vote they were to give that day was not merely
on the case of Mr. Hastings ; they were to vote a set of maxims
and principles, to be the guide of all future governors in India.
The code of political principles which they should that day establish
as the principles of British government in its distant provinces,
would stand recorded as aproof of their wisdom and justice, or of
their disposition to tyranny and oppression. He entered at large
into those peculiar circumstances in the connection between this
country and India, which rendered the retribution of justice, in
cases of cruelty and oppression, extremely difficult, and contrasted
them with the situation of the provinces conquered by the Romans.
The Roman empire was an empire of continuity, each province
being either immediately or nearly accessible by land ; they had
likewise one general tongue to speak with, so that each man was
able to tell his tale in his own way. They had another advantage,
which arose from the very circumstance of their being conquered,
and it was, that the principal persons who accomplished the con
quest always acquired a property and influence in each new pro
vince by them subdued, and of course the vanquished found patrons
and protectors in the persons of their conquerors. Each province
was also considered as a body corporate, and consequently each
province was enabled to send their grievance to Rome collectively,
and to state them as speaking with one mouth. He next adverted
to the situation of an accuser in Rome, and to the advantages that

220 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [Julie I.
attended him in prosecuting his charges against a state delinquent,
who was stripped of his power, and even of his rights as a citizen,
pending the prosecution, the better to enable his accuser to make
out and establish his accusation. He drew a distinction between
this facility of coming at a Roman governor, charged with high
crimes and misdemeanors, and the extreme difficulty of substan
tiating an accusation against a British governor. When it was
considered that Mr. Hastings had been for fourteen years at the
head of the government in India, and that no one complaint during
that time had been transmitted to England against him, the House
must be convinced of the enormous degree of power he had to
contend with, to which alone could be ascribed the silence in ques
tion, since it was not in human nature, situated as Mr. Hastings
had been, to preserve so pure, even handed, and unimpeachable a
conduct, as to afford no room for a single accusation to be stated
against him. After this exordium, Mr.Burke stated at large the
subject matter of the charge, and concluded a long and eloquent
speech, with desiring the clerk to read the resolution of May 1782,
to clear himself from the imputation of having rashly and singly
meddled with the subject ; and to shew that the House had, in very
strong terms, already reprobated Mr. Hastings's conduct in the
Rohilla war. The motion was supported by Mr. Wilbraham,
Mr. Powis, Mr. Montague, Lord North, Mr. M. A. Taylor, Mr.
Windham, and Mr.Hardinge; and opposed by Mr. Nicholls, Lord
Mornington, Mr. H. Browne, and Lord Mulgrave. At half past
three o'clock the debate was adjourned, and renewed the day fol
lowing by Mr. Francis, Mr. Anstruther, and Mr. Fox, on the one
side ; and Mr. W. Grenville, Mr. J. Scott, Mr. Burton, Mr. Wil-
berforce, and Mr. Dundas, on the other. Upon this ocsasion,
Mr. Fox rose, and said : _
Mr. St. John, I rise at this hour, to express what I think
with regard to this business, after debating two days about
the form in which it should be put. It is indeed to me of
very little consequence, in what shape the question is brought
before us : I want only to come at the ground, upon which the
matter stands ; I wish only to meet the thing itself fairly and
openly ; the participation, the guilt, the criminality which may
justly be imputed to Mr. Hastings, with regard to the war
with the Rohillas — a war carried on to their ruin, destruc
tion, extermination, or any other name you may please to give
it, for it was certainly more than conquest. This is the ob
ject to which I have done all in my power to call the atten
tion of the House ; and I must confess that I am not a little
surprised that it has been so much evaded, as it certainly has
been, and that in a manner so extremely marked.
The first charge exhibited by my right honourable friend
appeared not to meet the wishes of the House. A charge
specific of particular facts, was called for — this was complied
with. My right honourable friend brought a charge entirely

I786.3 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS." 221
of the nature and description of what had been demanded : it
was then thought more agreeable to gentlemen to move a
question upon the charge as it originally stood : this was ac
ceded to with equal facility.
Had I foreseen the use that would have been made of
these concessions, I would never have consented ; I do not
mean that my consent would have been of any avail, but I
would have debated to the last, rather than suffered the motion
to take the form it has now assumed. It has, indeed, always
been my opinion, that the best mode of proceeding in this N
business, was to move a general question, whether the whole
of the charges contained matter of impeachment ; and if this
should be the opinion of the committee, to consider what par
ticular articles were to make a part of this impeachment ; and
had it not been that I confided in the declarations of the right
honourable the chancellor of the exchequer, I would have
still persisted in this manner of taking up the business. It is
my opinion that the number, as well as the weight of the
crimes that might be found, should go in the minds of gentle
men who form a resolution for impeachment ; that the crimes
should be great and enormous; and that not only should
they bear that character, but that they should be in number
very considerable, -in order that the aggregate and not
the individuals alone, might form ground for inducing this
House to present them before the House of Peers, in the only
mode in which they can charge any man, that of impeach
ment. The right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer
professes entirely to agree with me in this point ; he has de^
clared that he does not consider the vote upon this article, or
any one article, as pledging gentlemen to impeach, if upon a.
retrospect of the whole, after having gone through each, they
do not find grounds to lead them to such a determination.
But although tlje right honourable gentleman professes this
to be his opinion, I must contend he means something else.
Why, otherwise, should he be so much for retaining the word
impeachment at all in the motion ? If, as he declares, the
vote is solely whether there are high crimes and misdemeanors
imputable to Warren Hastings in this charge, that word can
only tend to mislead, and occasion a sense of the motion be
fore the House different from what it really is in its true in
tention. As I have said a good deal upon this in the course of
the evening, I beg only that it may not be misunderstood by
gentlemen, and that the motion may be taken in the sense ex
plained by the right honourable gentleman to be his sense,
and which certainly is mine, that every gentleman who is
convinced that Warren Hastings is criminal, highly criminal,
with regard to the RobiUa war, ought to vote for the question.

222 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
Much blame has been thrown by an honourable gentle
man (Mr. Wilberforce) upon my noble friend in the blue
ribbon, for not recalling Mr. Hastings at the time he blamed
him, as he declares he did, for the Rohilla war. The fact is,
the noble lord did desire to recall Mr. Hastings, but his
wishes were opposed by those who were Mr. Hastings's im
mediate masters. Lie did all in his power; he sent out
General Clavering, Mr. Monson, and Mr. Francis, to ex
amine into his conduct, and to be a check upon the violence
of his proceedings. The effect has been as he foresaw, and
it has brought to light those actions which are the subject of
inquiry this day.
My right honourable friend too, who brought forward this
charge, has been accused of a persecuting spirit ; of bringing
forward actions that had been passed over, and which it was
right to bury in oblivion. Such imputations, I believe my
right honourable friend will not much regard ; but when the
honourable gentleman complains of parliament, it is too
much to pass it over in silence. This business was first in
quired into, in the committee of secresy, in the year 1782 ;
it was then censured, and severely censured ; and although it
was a transaction which happened so many years before
that period, it was not made known to them as a subject of
inquiry before the appointment of that committee. It was in
consequence of the facts that were discovered by that com
mittee, that the resolutions reprobating the conduct of the
governor general were passed by the House of Commons.
My right honourable friend, it is true, moved for several
papers: some were granted him, many were refused; but
the whole had its origin in the year 1782. But why should
not the conduct of Mr. Hastings be entered into ? If by the
resolution of the House not to inquire into the transactions
of the year 1781, an act of grace was passed, was all his life
to be exempted ; or was it only that period of it between the
year 1781 and the year 1782? Certainly there must be
some time for this purpose ; and if the honourable gentleman
could prove that the Rohilla war was after this time, in which
no inquiry was to be made, he might do something ; but let
this be left to those who are convinced of the guilt of
Mr. Hastings and do not choose to condemn him, as their
last subterfuge; but to which, it is to be hoped, they will
be ashamed to fly.
It has been said by some, that they see too much of party
spirit in this business. I agree that professions are nothing.
They have often deceived, and will deceive again; but I
rest upon something better than professions. I rest upon my
uniform conduct in this business. I was from the first, a sup-

I786.3 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 223
porter of an inquiry into the management of the affairs in
India : I was in the origin a strong advocate for the necessity
of punishing the delinquency that was found there, by the
activity of the learned gentleman over against me (Mr.
Dundas). Through the whole of that business, I supported
that learned gentleman, at a time when I disapproved of
his politics as much as I do now : I supported him, even
when those who were his friends were against the measures he
proposed. Sir, I can appeal to something better than party spirit. I
can show that this has always been the line of my conduct ; I
can appeal to the part I took upon myself at a much earlier
period, in bringing to justice crimes committed in our Asiatic
dominions ; and there, too, by a man who had great advan
tages in his favour : for great fame, great glory, great acts
for his country, were all in the character of Lord Clive ; but
these I valued as nothing. Under whose banners did I then
contend ? It was under the banners of that man, who is now
at the head of all the law and religion of this country, the
present lord chancellor of England, who treated the subject
with that manly eloquence for which he is so much distin
guished; who crushed, I may say, to atoms, all those who
attempted to set up the services of Lord Clive as a bar to
punishment. He would not suffer a word to be heard, he
would not allow mention to be made of any thing that was
done by him, as any argument to prevent his punishment. I
supported him, and if such was my opinion with respect to
Lord Clive, I do not see any thing in Mr. Hastings's conduct
to induce me to change my mode of action. I do not think
that in any capital instance he has been of great use to the
company. The Mahratta peace is alledged in his favour. I
have my doubts whether this peace had the merit ascribed to
it; but if it had, it^was a peace only upon a war entered into
by himself, on his own wanton provocation ; for he does not
seem to have been at any time a friend to peaceable measures.
He opposed also the forming, and the accomplishment of the
treaty of Poonah and Poorunder ; he opposed also the peace
with Tippoo Saib.
With respect to the particular question, I wish by no.
means to treat it lightly. I do not approve of making the
difference of opinion, in the gentleman at the head of the
board, on this subject, an object of pleasantry. The whole
business is, in my opinion, solemn and important to the last
degree. Much has been said of side questions, but I per
suade myself there is a disposition in gentlemen to meet this
question fairly and openly. Much disgrace would be upon
this country if they should countenance the advice that has
been

224 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
been given them by some persons, of assenting to this waiy
as founded on justice.
As for this war of the Rohillas, it has appeared to all the world
so wholly unjustifiable, that there has not been found among
any set of men, any person that could defend it. If it shall
be supported by a British House of Commons, it will be the
greatest misfortune that can befall this nation.
The determination of this night will be attended to by all
Europe. The nations around us will form upon it their
future measures with regard to their powers in India ; and
may justly presage the total loss of all confidence in the
justice of this nation in that part of the world. What must
be thought by our government in India ? The rule held out to
them they must, no doubt, consider as that by which they
are in future to direct their conduct.
It was said, that if we guaranteed Sujah Dowlah, we
ought to follow him to the extent of what he proposed, and
that there was no medium between forfeiting our faith as
guarantees, and joining with him in the destruction of the
Rohillas. This is, indeed, horrid policy ! Instead of acting
the part of an equitable umpire and mediator, what is it but
to countenance and assist barbarous vengeance and rapacity ?
to defend that which has cast indelible stains upon the most
brilliant monarchs ?
If any thing similar to this, of which we are speaking,
were to happen in Europe, how great would be the cry
against it ? If Great Britain were to guarantee a truce
between the emperor and the Dutch, in which they stipu
lated to pay a certain sum of money to the emperor, and
afterwards were to refuse to perform this, we ought, ac
cording to" this reasoning, to join with the emperor in the
compleat conquest of Holland. A noble lord (Mulgrave)
has, indeed, most sagaciously asked, what, in such a
situation, is a governor of India to do; is he to consult
Puffendorf and Grotius? No. But I will tell him what
he is to consult — the laws of nature — not the statutes to
be found in those books, nor in any books — but those laws
which are to be found in Europe, Africa, and Asia — that
are found amongst all mankind — those principles of equity
and humanity implanted in our hearts, which have their
existence in the feelings of mankind that are capable of
judging. I have compared the conquest of the Dutch to the case of
the Rohillas — but it was more than a conquest. The word
extermination has been used ; but if the meaning of it be,
that every man, woman, and child was put to death, Mr.
Hastings is not guilty of so enormous a crime. Suffer me to

I786.3 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 225
to make use of an example, that may come home more to
your feelings; and that is with regard to Ireland. The
English are not above one ninth of the inhabitants of that
country, but they possess all the power, together with the
greatest part of the property and landed estates of it. Were
a French army to come and take possession of Ireland, and
say to the English, " You are a set of robbers, those lands do
not helong to you ; you are usurpers, and you came here
under the greatest usurper in the world;" (for I believe
most of the English families settled in Ireland in the time
of Oliver Cromwell) "get you gone — get over that channel,
and leave this country, of which you have so unjustly taken
possession" — what difference would there be in an act of
this kind, and what has been done to the Rohillas? Only
this — the Rohillas had been in possession fifty years, and the
English one hundred and fifty. No one, I believe, will think
that the time could make any material difference; but if this
was done by an enemy, it could only be done under the pre
tence of restoring the country to its ancient masters. With
regard to the Rohillas, that is not the case — in other respects
the case would not be dissimilar. If all the English were extir
pated from Ireland, the manufacturers, the plowmen, and the
labourers would still be left — but I believe no one would
say, that there would not be great hardship in such case,
great injustice, great cruelty. Figure to yourselves such a
body of people driven from a country in which they were in
peaceable possession, rooted up, and sent amongst you with
their wives, with their children, without property, without
any thing to support them in existence : yet they would have
another advantage ; the English would only be sent across a
narrow channel to their friends and countrymen; but the
wretched Rohillas had no country — the country they had
left, had long been possessed by others, and where were these
miserable people to seek for a place of shelter — from the
persecution of whom ? — of Englishmen — natives, of a country
renowned for its justice and humanity ! They will carry
their melancholy tale into the numerous tribes and nations,
among whom they are scattered, and you may depend upon
it, the impression which it must make, will, sooner or later,
have its effect.
A great deal of argument has been made use of, with
regard to the guarantee, it is said, we entered into. I own
I think very differently from most people on this particular
point. I think it necessary to consider first, if the agreement
was a guarantee : I think Mr. Hastings was guilty, if it was
no guarantee ; if it was one, I think he is most guilty. But
it was no guarantee. Sir Robert Barker, who signed the
vol. m. p.

226 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [Julie I.
treaty alluded to, had no powers for this purpose. He him
self thought it no guarantee. The board thought it no gua
rantee. In truth they could not enter into one, not even
Mr. Hastings himself, without contradicting in the most ex
press manner the very opinions he was at that time strongly
impressing to be the directors of his conduct.
On the subject of offensive war there has been much dis
pute; but whatever may be the sentiments of others with
regard to it, Mr. Hastings most explicitly declares his opinion
to be against it. In the year 1772, Mr. Hastings, in his
letter to the court of directors, says, " I can in this beg leave
to assure you, that I adopt, with sincerity and satisfaction,
your orders against offensive war;" and with regard to the
vizier, he declares that " nothing shall either tempt or com
pel him to pass the political line which they had laid down
for his operations with him." He makes use of a very singu
lar expression, for the purpose of shewing his strong deter
mination on this point; it seems to me to be nonsense; but
it is intended to shew his measures in a strong light : he says,
*' in the mean time you will observe, that I have refused to
go farther than agreeing to a passive defence of his domi
nions." This letter was written in the month of November,
1772 ; in the month of June preceding the treaty was signed
by Sir Robert Barker. If he had guaranteed them by this
treaty, and come under an obligation to support such a gua
rantee by an offensive war, it is impossible he could have ex
pressed himself in this maimer. In Mr. Hastings's own letter
lie takes merit to himself for having gone into no offensive
treaty; and it is not to be supposed, he could be either so
absent, or have so much duplicity, as to speak of a business in
a light which he knew to be false, and which might so easily
be discovered.
But they double the guilt by supposing a guarantee. If he
was guarantee, it could be no reason for his taking up arms ;
the object was solely the acquisition of a sum of money ; and
I must beg leave to say, that the object of profit can be no
reason for taking up arms at any time or upon any emergency.
Here was solely the purpose of acquiring the sum of forty
lacks of rupees. No previous requisition was made of them,
but the country was immediately invaded. Couple this with
the office which they ascribe to him ; he was an umpire and
a mediator. Every person who is a guarantee to a treaty is a
guarantee on both sides. An honourable gentleman said,
that he might be such, and not be bound to interfere : this I
deny ; he has a power of chusing ; he is bound to procure the
effect of it in its full extent. But what was the conduct of
Mr. Hastings ? He receives a bribe for the purpose of ex-

1786-3. CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS.. 22?
torting a sum of money from those he was obliged by treaty
to defend ; and he adds to the character of a cruel invader,
that of a corrupt and profligate judge.
I declare, Sir, that in all the writings I have ever seen, I
never recollect such doctrine maintained as I have heard on
this subject in this House. I do not pretend to be greatly
conversant in books of this kind, but in all of them I have ever
looked into, I have never seen conduct such as this attempted
to be defended ; not even in Machiavel, nor the most corrupt
defenders of crooked policy. It is worse than any mode of
acting adopted by the meanest states of Italy ; and if such
doctrines are allowed by the House of Commons to be valid,
(hey are the .first public assembly — I do not say that has
acted upon them — but they are the first which has ever
avowed and adopted them in any part of the civilized
World. Unfortunately for mankind, actions are not always
derived from pure sources in public bodies, but in general,
they take care to hold forth to the world principles of equity
and justice.
But if he did guarantee ' this treaty, it is insisted that he
was bound to see the money paid to Sujah Dowlah. Was
there no other way of procuring this than the one which
Mr. Hastings followed ? I cannot put it better than in the
words of an honourable gentleman (Mr. Hardinge), who,
when he pleases, possesses the powers of eloquence as much
as any gentleman I know, but in a plain and simple manner.
he expressed this more strongly than by the most magnificent
figures — Mr. Hastings' language to the Rohillas was this,
'-' If you do not pay this sum of money, be ye exterminated."
An honourable gentleman complains, that an appeal has been
made to his passions. It is true, it is an appeal to the pas
sions ; this simple expression is an appeal, the strongest that
ever was made to the feelings of mankind — it is one of those
subjects which eloquence cannot heighten, and the force of
which words can only diminish. If a sum of money was due
by any one country to another with which we were in
alliance ; if that sum was demanded and refused to be paid,
we might join our ally in arms; but we should not rush
blindly into war; we should weigh its policy; balance the ad
vantage to be gained ; and at any rate, we should follow it
no farther than procuring the payment of the sum, and the
expence of enforcing it.
The noble lord was pleased to say, that Mr. Hastings was
obliged to join in arms with Sujah Dowlah, and having
joined him with his troops, he had no more control over
them : but this is by no means the line of his proper conduct.
If Mr. Hastings thought it right to grant an aid of troops to
8 2

228 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [Julie I.
Sujah Dowlah, it ought to have been only for the purpose of
enabling him to recover this sum of money ; but he ought not
to have suffered him to carry his resentment to the Rohillas
any farther ; and even to enter into an offensive war for this
purpose, would have been contrary to his orders, and what
the object would not have been equal to. Had Mr. Hastings
said to himself, " I will procure this money for Sujah Dowlah,
as the guarantee of the treaty ; as the director of the English
forces, and the president of the company's servants I feel
myself bound to see that the stipulation is fulfilled, — " Fiat
justitia, ruat ccelum'' I am determined to risque every thing
to maintain the claim of Sujah Dowlah ; let the policy and
displeasure of the company yield to the necessity of maintaiiv-
ing our faith :" his conduct might have left room for an apo
logy ; but this is not his language. What does he say ? He
says, give it me ; I must have this sum. And he thinks fit to
represent to him what the orders of the company were, in
order to enhance the merit of joining his forces with him, and
to induce him to be more ready, to let him have these forty
lacks. Besides, the Rohilla country was always esteemed a
barrier against the Marattas, and they were at that time prepar
ing to go to war against that nation. The security, therefore,
of the company's territories required, that they should rather
be defended than expelled ; that they should be rather pro
tected than wantonly attacked and destroyed.
It is in every respect a clear point, that Sujah Dowlah had
lio claim upon you for your assistance, whether there was a
guarantee, or whether there was no such connection existing.
The attestation of any treaty, — and Sir Robert Barker's sig
nature was no more, — can never be considered as a guaran
tee. As well might the signature of Mr. Oswald and Mr.
Franklin, to the treaty of the last peace, be considered as a
guarantee that this country and America should perform the
conditions they separately agreed upon with France. I think
it must be equally convincing to all who attend to the true
state of this business, that if there was a guarantee, it only
tended to increase the criminality of this conduct. There are
the orders of the company against all offensive alliances ; and
there is the security of the country depending upon the strict
compliance with these orders. No one can doubt, that the
orders of the company are clear, and that the disobedience of
these orders is as clear.
With regard to the justice of the war, it is impossible, in
my opinion, that any human mind can feel, that it is not
highly unjust in every respect, and in the most extensive de
gree. No principle that could tend to justify it was ever de
fended until this period, — and that, too, in a British House
J3

I786J CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 22$)
of Commons! Much difference has arisen about the policy of
restricting servants in Asia from entering into offensive war.
I must own, that I am on that subject entirely of the opinion
of the directors. I think that the reputation of equity and
moderation .is so necessary to the preservation of our posses
sions in India, that if the rich dominions of the Rohillas had
been annexed to our territory, the acquisition could not have
made up for the loss of character we have sustained. I think
nothing that was possible to be proposed could make up for
it. The principle upon which Mr. Hastings acted was horri
ble; it was the principle upon which the most insignificant
mercenary states form their measures of acting. What &
principle for a great nation ; for the English nation ! It was
no less than this in the most express terms — you must pay me,
and I will exterminate them. This was the language held by
the man who was entrusted with the government of the
greatest territory belonging to the British empire, or perhaps
to any empire; give me the forty lacks of rupees, and I will
break through the orders I have received from my masters,
and you shall make use of their army to exterminate the Ro
hillas, and take possession of their country.
But behold what follows. In the year 1782 he is accused
of partiality to Sujah Dowlah; his reply is ready, he makes
the company participators in the crime, and by pretending
their advantage, endeavours to evade the punishment due to
such behaviour. I did not, says he, mean to serve Sujah
Dowlah ; I made this engagement to serve you, by bringing to
your treasury a sum of money, and drawing him nearer the
frontiers of the Marattas; so that by his dread of them, he
may be more dependant upon you. The whole and every
part of this transaction forms a picture of so sad and crooked
a policy, that it is infinitely detestable.
But this was not only a war merely of contention for vic
tory. It was carried on with circumstances of the most atro
cious cruelty. But that I may not seem to exaggerate, what
in itself needs no exaggeration, I shall beg leave to read to
you the letters of Colonel Champion, complaining of this be
haviour. — Mr.. Fox here read the following letters:

o

Letter from Colonel Champion to Mr. Hastings, dated Bissoullee,
ioth of March, 1774.
Dear Sir, I have the pleasure to send you a short address for the
board, requesting permission to repair to the presidency, and I beg
you will not fail to present it as soon as credible accounts shall ar
rive of any officers being on the way to Bengal, to take the com
mand of the army. — Not only do I wish to get down as soon as
possible, to put my little affairs in the best order for my return to
S3

ly* CHAEGES AGAINST JfH- HA9TI5GS. (Time I
Europe, bat I mast be candid enough to unbosom myself to yon,
and confess, that the nature of the service, andthetAms on which
I hare been employed thi? campaign, have been raespraatiMy dis
agreeable  The authority giren to the.tizier over our army, has
totally absorbed that degree of consequence due to my station.
3Iy hands hare been tied op ircr^ gxring protection or asyhnn to
the miserable. I hare a deaf ear to the lamentable cries of the
widow and fatherless, and shot my eyes against a wanton display
of violence and oppression- of mhiamarily £.nd cruelty. — The
company's interest constrained me in public to stifle the workings
of my feelings, but I most give the-n Tent in private. — Thvxih
•«-e had oo active part in ta=se bs= s proceedings, yet it is weii
known that the success of oar arms gave him tie poorer of ciinrait-
ting these enormities, end I much fear that oar being even silent
spectators of such deeds, w£L redo'^nd to the (Eshonoor of ocr
nat'cn, aad impress all Hmdostan vriti the most unfavourable opi
nion of oar government. — As matters are now, I know of no
reicedy that wotiM so effectually re-establish onr character for jus
tice and cfemency, as your taking: the family of Hafez under the
wings of yoor merer and protection, aad influencing the nabob to
snake provision for them, in some degree suitable to their birth 
It would affect tout seoabSriT t to much, were I to descend to par
ticular; ; let it suffice that tLe nabcb 3Iahabbit Cawn, the eldest
son, and the rest of the famDy of Hafez, who are under close con
finement (the Begums and other women included) have been
driven to the necessity *rf miirg private applications for a little
rice and water. — I wish, nrj friend, to leave scenes which Bor_e
bat toe mercDeis sujah can besr. without heart-bleeding pain.
Believe me- therefore, assocc as possible, and oblige, dear Sir, &c
iiA-CHA31PIO>f.*'
Extract of a letter from Colonel Chanrpion, dated Camp, 12th
"of June, 1774-
•- In compliance with die board's desire, I am now to mention a
Teiy tmpleasmg subject, the viziers- treatment of the family of
Hafez Bamet, &c The inhamanrtr and dishonour with winch
JBhebuZih Shan, hisbrotLir FitdnDah Khan, late proprietors of
this dty and ibis cocstry, have been used, is known all over these
parts; a relation of them — oald swell tins letter to an immense
size, and withal prove ver.- disagreeable reading ; I send too
translations of two fetters, Era a copy of a third, which, affecting
as they are, wfll convey bet a rani t idea of the treatment these un
happy people hare me* >~> : . — I could not help compassionating
such unparalkfed misery ; ar_I my requests to the vizier to shew
lenity were frequsii- but as froidess as «-ere the advices which
I almost hourly gave him regar .ling the destruction of the Til
lages, with respect to which I am bow constrained to declare,
that although he always promised as fairly as I could wish, yet
he did not observe oce of them, nor cease to overspread the
country with flames, till three days after die fate of Hafez
Shamet was decided; bzX that gentleman, as in all points, ex-
cepdng such as mmpcfatHy respect the operations of the field.

5 786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. / 331
he is solely entitled to prescribe ;. the reputation of the British
name is in his hands, and the line which has been laid down
for me is clear."
Translation of a letter from a wife of Hafez Rhamet Khan ta
Colonel Champion.
" The English gentleman, renowned through Indostan for jus
tice, equity, and compassionating the miserable. Hafez Rhainet
Khan for forty years governed this country, and the very
beasts of the forest trembled at his bravery. The will of God is
resistless ; he is slain, and to his children not an atom remains,
but they are cast from their habitations, naked, and exposed to
the winds and the heat, and the burning sand, and perishing
for want even of rice and water : how shall I either write or state
my condition ? My sighs dry my ink and scorch my paper. It is
evident as the sun the English are brave and merciful, and who
soever they subdue, their children they preserve, who forget their
sorrows by the kind treatment they receive ; nor draw the sword
in an unjust cause. Yesterday 1 was chief of an hundred thousand
people ; to-day I am in want even of a cup of water ; and where %
commanded, I am prisoner : fortune is ficlde, she raises the hum
ble, and lowers the exalted : but I am innocent, and if any one is
guilty, it is Hafez : but why should the innocent be punished for
the errors of their father ? I am taken like a beast in a snare, with
out resting place by night, or shade by day. From you, Sir, I
hope justice and compassion ; for I am as a bird confined in a cage,
'tis better to give up life by the dagger, than famish thus by hun
ger and thirst; you,. I hope, Sir, will reflect on my state, or my
misfortunes will be doubled ; I have nothing left ; pardon this
paper." Extract of a letter from Colonel Champion, dated June 15th,
1774.
" I am most heartily disposed to believe that the board could
not have suspected their orders would have had such consequence*
as have fallen out ; they could not have foreseen so sudden and so
total an expulsion and downfall of a whole race of people ; they
could not have supposed that a man, exalted and supported by the
British. arms, would have paid so little deference to the advice and
counsel of a British commander ; nor was it possible to conceive
that a man who himself had tasted the gall of misfortune, should
be so totally unmindful of the unbounded, and unparalleled
grace shown to him, as to delight in denying a single ray of be
nevolence to others ; such however has been the case ; and in this
intimation of it, I have discharged that which was incumbent up
on me. I too can say that the nabob, as an agent of oppression, is
alone culpable ; but whilst all Asia well knows that the English
.gave him the rod, and whilst they in vain look up to them as those
who ought, if not to direct its application, at least prevent an ill
use being made of that rod; will they not conclude that the
scourges which the agent gives are connived at ? Will Ihey not
nay every English chief is a sujah ?¦"
8 4

23 a CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I
Extract of a letter to the governor-general and council, dated
30th of Jan. 1775.
" Consider, my friend," says his excellency the vizier, repeat
edly to Mr. Hastings, " that it was my absolute determination to
extirpate the Rohillas, and that I requested the assistance of the
English for that purpose."'
However well it is known, continued Mr. Fox, that his
excellency is equal to the barbarous design for which he thus
publicly and daringly avows that he solicited the aid of the
English, is it possible we can believe, that the respectable gen
tleman here traduced, could have been privy to so horrid a
purpose ? Could he have so entirely overcome the feelings of
humanity? Could he have been so lost to every sense of
honour, as to prostitute the English troops, and to stain the
glory of the British name, by subscribing to a preconcerted
massacre ? What is not his excellency capable of advancing ?
But with regard to all this, the noble lord (Mornincton)
says, he considers Mr. Hastings as not at all blameable, that
he did all that was in his power to prevent Sujah Dowlah from
behaving with crueltv ; but that he could not turn his face
against a prince whom he had engaged to assist. "Why did
he not ? The principles of humanity and equity are paramount
to all treaties and all ties. He ought to have made use of his
power to prevent the violation of the sacred obligations of hu
manity. Sujah Dowlah and his troops were nothing. It was
easily in the power of our people to have put an entire end,
and to have prevented the ravage they made among the Ro
hillas. Whatever are your engagements with any allv, you
must never forget the rights of mercy and hu:rjanitv; and
when you find those who are with you unwilling to act their
part, you ought to prevent them from making a bad use of
the rod you have put into their hands. It is a greater motive
for opposing their violence, that you have contributed to put
it in their power to abuse victory. But at all times, and on
every occasion, you are obliged to do all that 15 possible for
you to do, to prevent cruelty.
I refer not to Punendorf and Grotius ; every man who has
the feelings of. a man is capable of judging. Does it require
any investigation of minute relations in points of justice and
equity, to decide, that you ought to put a stop to cruelty and
barbarity whenever it is in your power so to do ? These cruel
ties are not, indeed, chargeable on Mr. Hastings personally;
but when I state, that he levied an unjust war, the conse
quences that follow he is guilty of: with all the mischief oc
casioned by these means he is chargeable. In the prosecution
of a war founded on justice, it cannot be said, that we draw

I786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 433
upon ourselves the guilt of all the evils that may happen:, but
it is far otherwise in an unjust war. Having departed from
rectitude and justice in the outset, every farther deviation,
even without our immediate act, is additional guilt heaped
upon our heads.
But it has been said, that Mr. Hastings is not liable to be
charged with it, as he was at a distance, and could not remedy
the evil. Neither is this a true representation : Mr. Hastings
had intelligence of the cruelties that were practised, and he
did not take the means to put a stop to them, which were
entirely in his power : he even refused, at the requisition of
Colonel Champion, to give relief to the severities which were
suffered by that unhappy people ; and the reason he gives is,
that Sujah Dowlah, if they were to controul him, might make
that a pretence of refusing the stipulated sum he had agreed
to pay. The whole transaction, from beginning to end,
was carried on for the purpose of acquiring these forty lacks
of rupees; for that sum, the character, the dignity, the honour
of the English nation were basely and treacherously exposed
to sale.
I think I have now gone over the four principal features
of this business, in a manner, indeed, very desultory, owing
to the time of the night at which I speak, and which makes
me desirous to hasten through the business as soon as possi
ble. The four principal matters to which I wish to draw
your attention are, First, the direct disobedience of the orders
of his masters, approved by himself, and perfectly well under
stood by him. Seccndly, I have endeavoured to prove to you,
that the war was entered into on our part, without any kind
of obligation upon us so to do. Thirdly, I have spoken to
the justice ; and last of all, to the policy of this war. In
all these I think I have demonstrated, that there is not a
shadow of ground to stand up in defence of Mr. Hastings.
His orders are clear, and his disobedience of those orders
equally clear.
I think I have made it also obvious to the conviction of
every one, that Mr. Hastings was under no obligation to give
the assistance to Sujah Dowlah that he did give ; that there
was no claim upon us in any respect of the matter ; and that
in this light it was understood, both by Sujah Dowlah, by
Mr. Hastings, and by the council. I have also endeavoured
to prove, that the action was most unjust, cruel, and inhuman,
in Sujah Dowlah, and still more so in us ; because it was in
our power to prevent it. By our countenance it was accom
plished; and the whole iniquity of the ruin of these people
falls upon this nation. I have lastly spoken tp the policy
of it, and I hope neither its policy nor justice will ever be

234 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I*
defended by this House. It was no other than a merce
nary bargain fbr a sum of money, to destroy a people against
whom we had no ground for complaint. What an example
to' future governors, should this action have the sanction or
the approbation of this House ! I have not enlarged upon the
cruelties in the execution of this business ; the business itself
speaks enough to your passions, and it ought to speak to your
passions. Vengeance is due to the injured Rohillas. It is
due to the character of this country, stained and violated in
so gross a manner. It is due to the honour, the dignity, and
the justice of this House.
Against all these principles is set up the personal character
of Mr. Hastings. I am far from being desirous of detracting
from the character of any man. I wish to think well of every
man ; and am willing to believe Mr. Hastings possesses very .
good qualities ; but when I am told that he is all mildness and
humanity, even to womanish tenderness, I must hesitate. If
the Begum and the other women, in favour of whom Colonel
Champion intreated Mr. Hastings in vain, had been told that
the man who had it in his power by a word to relieve them
from the distress and dishonour which they suffered, and who
turned a deaf ear to their miseries, was a man possessed of
the tenderest feelings of humanity, would they not hold up
their hands, and possess minds full of wonder and surprise?
It seems indeed impossible, that a man whose heart was not
uncommonly hardened, could have acted the part in this mat
ter which was acted by Mr. Hastings.
In this corner of the world, happily for us, we see few
atrocious acts of cruelty, and are strangers to that fierceness
of temper and unfeeling disposition which prevails very much
in other quarters of the globe. The people we converse with
are in general mild and humane ; and have an external po
liteness and softness of manner,- which we suppose to be the
natural effect of these qualities : and wherever we meet with
that external appearance in any man, we are apt to persuade
ourselves that he is possessed of these virtues ; but in fact they
have no natural connection in themselves, and we often find
that those who are of an insinuating, soft, and engaging man
ner, conceal more cruelty and inveterate hatred in their tem
pers, and have less of real sensibility for the distresses of others,
than men of a very different external appearance : men whose
manner appears full of warmth and passion, have generally
more real tenderness and humanity than others who are calm,
cool, and collected in their behaviour.
But how ought the character of Mr. Hastings to be tried ?
We cannot judge of it from what any persons in India can
tell of him. There is, in my opinion, a much more certain

*786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 235
mode of judging—- from his despotism in India. Uncon^
trolled power always corrupts the heart, renders a man har
dened to the distresses of others, and destroys the finer feel
ings of the mind. No man has ever been able to enjoy great
power without being made worse by it ; but the true mode of
judging of any man's character is by his actions, and the effect
of his actions. I read Mr. Hastings's character in the ruin
of Hindostan, in the desolation of the country of the Rohillas ;
these mark a character extremely different from the accounts
presented to us by partiality, or particular habit. If Mr.
Hastings had possessed the feeling which it is alleged he does,
¦would he not have reflected before he committed an army,
powerful enough to do any mischief, under the direction of
such a prince as Sujah Dowlah ; whose cruel and perfidious
disposition was sufficiently known to him ?
It is said, you are not to consult the character of the
princes with whom you are engaged. But you ought to con
sult them so far as to know the length to which you can put
confidence ' in them; and knowing the character of Sujah
Dowlah, Mr. Hastings undoubtedly deserved much blame for
suffering him to possess so great an authority over the British
troops; and he ought most certainly to have given the strictest
orders to prevent his exercising any cruelty over the inha
bitants of that devoted country, which he had suffered them
to attack. But, en the contrary, we find Mr. Hastings ex
citing Sujah Dowlah to the full accomplishment of his pur
poses, and afterwards giving up the devoted Rohillas to the
will of this tyrant.
In every light in which I can view this war, it appears to
me equally indefensible, equally disgraceful to the character
of this nation. I think it leads to every thing that Is bad ; and
if the principle of this transaction should be approved of by
this House, the governors of India will have little restraint
upon their actions, and certainly will believe it unnecessary
to observe any other laws than those which rapacity and vio
lence may dictate.
An honourable gentleman was pleased to blame my right
honourable friend for charging Mr. Hastings with a transac
tion which passed so many years previous to this period ; but
he ought to recollect, that this is not the first time the Rohilla
war has been condemned, and that severely too. We have
upon the journals of the House a specific resolution against
the Rohilla war, censuring it in as severe terms as can be
made use of, framed and passed on the motion of the learned
gentleman (Mr. Dundas) who is desirous of treating all that
system which he had so strenuously maintained at a former
period, as a mere chiraera. For it is not this resolution alone,

23*5 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
but that whole plan, that code of laws esteemed so necessary
to the government of India, which is wholly overturned by
the approbation of this transaction; they must remain so
much dead letter; a monument of the zeal of their author
who now has abandoned what he once so eagerly contended
for, and has displayed an example of inconsistency scarcely
equalled in the political history of this country. If the reso
lutions which the learned gentleman brought forward had any
meaning; if they were to be taken in their obvious sense; in
the sense they were by all at the time of their being brought
forward understood; they certainly amounted to a full and
total reprobation of the measures carried on in India by the
governor general, Mr. Hastings : they pointed out the neces
sity of a change in the whole of the mode of administering our
affairs in that part of the world, and by being adopted by
this House, we have become pledged to see them put in exe-
t^utTonT~~^hi64s_thefirst opportunity we have had of shewing
our determination to enforce them* and if this is omitted, it
will be justly considered as an entire relinquishment of the
plan of moderation and equity we thought so necessary at that
time to establish.
What colouring the learned gentleman can possibly give to
his behaviour, it is impossible to conjecture. After having so
solemnly bound himself to carry on this inquiry, to evade it
in the manner he has done, is too shameful to admit of apo
logy. Can he assert that he did not mean that Mr. Hastings
should be charged with the crimes he has imputed to him ?
Did he intend to calumniate him in his absence, and when
Mr. Hastings had an opportunity of defending himself, to
shrink from the accusation, and leaving the stigma which he
had thrown upon that gentleman to remain, to refuse to give
him an opportunity of vindicating his innocertce?
"Where would be the injury to Mr. Hastings, of sending
up an impeachment against him ? Where is the danger ? In
that assembly, where all the law, the religion and the justice
of this country is collected, it is impossible any injury can be
suffered. A fair and equitable trial of the business must take
place, and the culprit have it in his power to vindicate himself
from the charges which have been made against him.
These resolutions brought up by the honourable gentle
man, undoubtedly were intended to be a pledge that a charge
would be made against all who had disobeyed them, and that
it would be carried into effect by this House of Commons.
There are only three modes by which any man can be charged
by this House: two of them are, disapproved of: why should
not the remaining one have its fair operation? But it is
said, there should be some fixed marks of parliamentary dis-

I786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 237
grace upon Mr. Hastings, it is too much to impeach him. — ¦
But how is this to be done, without inquiring into the crimes
of which he is accused, and passing some opinion with regard
to them ? Would you condemn him without suffering him
to be heard at the proper bar ? It is true, an impeachment
by the Commons of England is a charge of great solemnity,
and much weight, yet it is no condemnation. The House
possesses no judicial sentence; it only, in this instance, fol
lows up what is laid down as the rule to which it was to ad
here, with regard to our servants in India. But to-night we
pass no resolution of impeachment, we decide only upon the
crime ; the former must be left to an after consideration of the
whole, not any particular part of his measures.
Let the whole of the conduct of Mr. Hastings be met
fully, and without evasion : let it be examined with firmness,
and with a determined purpose of asserting the principles of
moderation and equity we have held out to the world, and
upon the maintaining of which, the stability of our footing in
India must undoubtedly exist. If our views of administering
government in India are changed ; if we believe that those
resolutions which were framed with an unanimity not always
to be expected, and at that time very uncommon in this
House, were not founded in good policy, nor in justice, let
us declare it to the world. I call upon the learned gentleman
to whose labours we are so much indebted, and to whose
exertions we owe all that system this House has pledged itself
to establish, to come forward, and with manliness and spirit
move that they be erased from the journals of this House.
Why do they remain enrolled an evidence of the impotence
or of the folly of those who ought to be the guardians of the
justice of the nation ?
But the right honourable gentleman says, he intended only
that Mr. Hastings should be recalled. He determines, in
May 1782, that Mr. Hastings should be recalled — Mr. Has
tings did not arrive in England until 1785. The right ho
nourable gentleman was no short time in office before the re
call was thought of; time for reflection had been gained, and
he found that he had been too zealous. But he had proceeded
too far to retreat; he therefore at length determined to re
call Mr. Hastings, and he did recall him — with thanks, with
approbation, and with every mark of favour and protection
that a minister could bestow. Is this the effect of the boasted
reformation in India? Is this the earnest of the new system
of eastern government, which was to produce so much hap
piness and prosperity in that part of the world ? Is this an
example of the boasted determination of ministers tp punish
> Asiatic Crimes ?

238 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
An honourable gentleman (Mr. Grenville) has been pleased
to speak of the bill which I brought into this House, with
regard to that part of our dominions, with some severity, and
has described it as a bill that will be long remembered in this
country. I hope it will not soon be forgotten. It may be
thought that on this point I feel sore. I own I do not think
it wise on their part, to mention this matter now : no part of
that business can redound much to their honour. The bill
which they have framed, has been renewed and amended,
until it scarcely bears the resemblance of the original form.
I do not wish to call up this subject, but I know what I owe
to myself. I must take this opportunity to declare, that the
bill to which the honourable gentleman alludes, I esteem the
most important measure of my life. The principle on which
it was built, I am satisfied, is that alone which is capable of
maintaining order, and preventing abuse in the government
of those distant territories. Long had I revolved in my own
mind, the plan of which I am now speaking ; and when I
came into office, I did not feel easy until I had attempted to
bring into existence, what I held so essential to the right
administration of our government in that part of the world ;
and until I should accomplish it, I felt I had not done justice
to India.
An honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson) has thought
proper to arrogate merit to himself, in having rendered abor
tive the system which I proposed, and has been pleased to
boast of his influence in contributing towards its overthrow.
It is, indeed, an influence which you have all felt; it is a rod
which has severely chastised this country ; which has brought
it to the brink of ruin ; inclosing all things in concealment
and disguise, it still continues to spread its baneful effects
over the measures of the government of this nation. But long
as this has been suspected, persevering and forcible as has been
its action, never until this day has its existence been avowed,
and made a subject of undissembled boasting. The honourable
gentleman, indeed, is right- to make himself formidable by
something. He possesses knowledge and industry ; but if his
influence was not more powerful than his argument and his
consequence in this House, and in this country, it would
speedily find its own destruction, and be reduced like them,
to less than nothing.
But how much soever the honourable gentleman may make
a triumph of his power in the instance to which I allude, I
can assure him I feel myself very little personally affected by
it ; and I do declare that unless I had been able to accomplish
the great point to which I had bent all my thoughts, I would
not have remained oae day in office. Had I accomplished it,
12

3J786'.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 239
I would not have left India in that forlorn state, in which I
think it is now left, abandoned to the management of men in
cessantly driven from one object to another ; appearing deter
mined now, and again deserting their ground; and every thing
at last failing them, they have been forced to rest all their
hopes upon the virtues of a single man. I will venture to
foretell, that this measure will be found as little effectual, for
the purposes wanted in India, as the other schemes, they have
held up to deceive the public.
Perpetual, constant, strict responsibility to this House, is
the only way in which it is possible to govern, with justice
and with effect, these distant possessions. It is in this way
only we shall be able, and it is upon these conditions alone
that we have a right to preserve them. It was on these prin
ciples that I founded my bill, and I am still confident they are
the only principles that can impart stability and rectitude to
that part of the administration of the empire. I know that the
measure was by some persons loudly execrated and condemned;
but I take this opportunity of declaring that whatever others
may think of it, my opinion is only more and more confirmed
of its propriety and necessity. The principle of that bill it is
my ambition to have considered as the object which, above all
others,, I think the most necessary fpr this country to attain.
Those who opposed it have passed another, different in form,
and founded on Very different maxims. What have they
done ? They have passed one bill one year, another bill ano
ther year ; and we see them driven about from one principle to
another, until they scarcely themselves know upon what they
are proceeding.
The whole government of India rests upon responsibility.
This is the grand object to which our attention should be di
rected. And let me ask, how is this to be effected ? If, in
every instance, and at every point of time, you have not the
Cleans of enforcing this principle, it is not possible the govern
ment of this country can be preserved in its purity in the
east. You have no other hold of the people whom you send
put to that part of the world, but by placing them in such a
situation,, that every thing they do is to be canvassed and in
quired into, and if criminal, punished with severity. If you
iose sight of this for a moment, your power over that country
is gone. If a bad act is committed, what can you do ? You
threaten, and you recall, you appoint committees, and pre
pare all the apparatus of punishment. This consumes time ;
and with regard to that part of the world, thirteen months are
thirteen years. Before you can bring this man before you,
something may happen that will be a set-off, and the whole
may at once vanish away. The inquiry will be silenced, and

240 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
affairs go on in the same wretched train in which they hitherto
have been conducted.
People are greatly mistaken if they imagine there can be
the responsibility in India that there is here, and by similar
means. In this country facts can be got at with ease ; the
conduct of men is under the public eye, and if they betray the
trust reposed in them, it is possible to come at the means of
detecting their guilt. But how are you to procure evidence
of crimes committed in so distant a country ? The time neces
sary for such a purpose would suffer any mischief to be car
ried on, perhaps to the total ruin of our possessions.
I would have strict, literal, and absolute obedience to or
ders, in all those whom I entrusted with the administration
of government in that country ; that we might know the
ground upon which we were treading, and be able to form
some judgment of the real state of our affairs in that part of
our possessions. This House has already passed certain reso
lutions, and has pledged itself to see them put in execution ; an
opportunity is now presented, the matter is now in issue, and
if it is suffered to fall to the ground without a spirited and a
firm examination, all inquiry may sleep for ever, and every
idea of punishment be buried in oblivion.
This is, as I have said before, a matter of the utmost im
portance, and one which admits not of delay. If these prin
ciples are founded in truth, justice, and good policy, it i&
incumbent on you to lose no time to bring them into effect 3
and, by a striking example, to convince the world that the
principles of equity and moderation, which you have held out,
were not intended to deceive ; and that you did not begin the
work of reformation without being determined to carry it on
until it should have its full effect, by restoring happiness, and
preventing oppression throughout our dominions in Asia.
I have thought it proper, Sir, to shew the House that my
opinion is not altered, and to declare that I do not see any
thing hitherto done which is in any respect likely to place our
affairs in that quarter upon a stable and prosperous basis.
Deeming, as I do, the affairs of India to be weighty to the
last degree, I trust I need make no apology for endeavouring
to impress upon the House the only mode of governing these
possessions, that I am confident can ever be attended with
success, namely, that of responsibility to this House. With
this principle the present inquiry is most intimately con
nected. If you suffer it to be evaded, an abandonment of all
control over your people in India must undoubtedly follow.
Mankind will always form their judgments by effects ; and ob
serving that this man, who has been the culprit of this nation,
and of this House, for. a series of years, is absolved, without a

t78<5.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 24I
regular trial of his crimes, they will easily conclude, that an
other may find the same mode of coming at protection, and
that fear of punishment need not, at any time, interrupt the
pursuit of gain.
I would again, Sir, before I sit down, shortly revert to the
matter immediately before us. The principles of morals are
to be drawn from books, and from the tongues of men, not
from their actions. The fact is, indeed, too true, that men
have in all ages been little governed in their actions by equity
and justice ; but seldom has it happened, that they have openly
avowed that they have not been directed in their conduct by
rules so generally established as the foundation of all inter
course among mankind. The war against the Rohillas carries
with it so great an abandonment of all the great leading prin
ciples of morality, that it is astonishing that any man can at
tempt to defend it. We should reflect that our character is
at stake — and undoubtedly we should preserve that fair and
unsullied. It is natural to trust in a fair character ; and when
that is lost, all confidence is carried with it.
We should consider that Mr. Hastings himself does this.
He acts upon the character of nations : he states the charac
ter of the Rohillas as a reason for their being exterminated.
If we were to go on this principle, and exterminate every
nation of that description, we should soon leave the face of the
earth thinly inhabited ; and I am afraid our own country would
not be able to stand up with much confidence in defence of
its own character, if it should give its assent to such barbarous
doctrines. But there was nothing in the character of the
Rohillas to excite the indignation, or draw down the resent
ment of any nation, much less of Great Britain. They were
a brave people, and, what is singular, the only free people in
India. They governed the country of which they were pos
sessed with a mildness of which its very flourishing condition,
so as. to be called the garden of Hindostan, is an undeniable
proof; they were endowed with all those national virtues
which Britons have been accustomed to admire, and which,
form a strong chain of connection between countries which
enjoy the blessings of liberty. Ought not such a people to
have met with sympathy and regard in the feelings of this
nation ? Ought not a cause such as theirs to have interested a
British bosom ? To mark out such a people as the objects of
avarice, as the victims of unprovoked resentment, or to aban
don them to the rod of tyranny and oppression — what con
duct could be more derogatory to the character of a nation
which enjoys the influence of liberty ? What mode of pro
cedure could be more disgraceful to the honour and humanity
of the British name ?
VOL. III. K

242 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June I.
An honourable gentleman (Mr. Grenville) has spoken of
the religion and tenets of the Rohillas as an argument for their
destruction. I think he said, they were of some particular
sect of musselmen, the sect of Omar, and different from Hin
doos, the original inhabitants of the country. Men, Sir, have
been persecuted on account of their religion ; but that an ar
gument of this kind should be made use of at this time of day,
to palliate the crime of exterminating a nation, is a matter I
do not understand. Of what consequence is it to the question
of the justice of the war, whether their tenets or their practice
differ from those around them ? I am indeed sorry to hear
such doctrine as the justice of this war, defended by a young
man, who, from his situation in office, gives us reason to
dread, that on principles like these, the new government in
India is to be established.
The whole of this business is now before you. You are
now to decide, and I call upon you to reflect, that the cha
racter, the honour, and the prosperity of this nation de
pends on your decision. I have appealed to what is called
the passions, that is, the indignation of mankind against
enormous guilt, against violence and oppression. It has
been my opinion, that we ought, in this manner, always
to feel with regard to Indian delinquents. The people of
Hindostan have a claim upon our protection, upon our pity,
and their distresses call loudly for vengeance upon their op
pressors. Sixty thousand Rohillas driven like a herd of deer
across the Ganges from their houses and from their lands,
to perish through want of subsistence, or depend on the pre
carious bounty of nations with whom they had no connec
tion; these circumstances excite you to take vengeance on
those who have abused your authority, and tyrannized over
them ! The Begum and other women, and the princes of
that wretched nation, who, in vain, pleaded for relief from
the hands of your servants, call upon you to vindicate your
own character, and to let the guilt fall upon those who have
deserved it.
We ought, it is said, to be counsel for the prisoner. If
a man is not able to plead his own cause, it is right to allow
him every indulgence, and to put it in his power to bring
forward a fair state of the circumstances of his case. Truth
is the object which we wish to grasp, and every mode of
bringing that before us is to be attended to. My duty is,
when I find great crimes, to state them, and that not merely
on my own authority, but from the accounts of those who
were eye witnesses. It is our duty to bring a culprit to
justice. Mr. Hastings is the culprit of the nation. He has
infringed our orders, and we have bound ourselves to call

I786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 243
him to account. Whatever may be his services, they cannot
be pleaded here : they never can be considered as preventing
his offences from being inquired into : if he is guilty, he ought
to suffer the punishment due to them.
My right honourable friend has brought forward his ac
cusations openly and boldly. He did not basely slander Mr.
Hastings, when he was not present, and then meanly hide
himself behind some pitiful evasion ; but he has come for
ward with his charges to his face, and given him a fair op
portunity of clearing his innocence to the world. Mr. Has
tings has declared his wish to meet it. Why, then, will you
not suffer it to take its regular course? I say again, where
is the danger? Where the injury? Nothing but good can
result from it to your government in India. Lord Corn
wallis has been just sent out, with powers greater than were
ever entrusted to any governor. By what rule is he to frame
his conduct? Are those which have been laid down, and are
now disapproved of by this House, to regulate it? Or is he
to govern himself by the example of Mr. Hastings, of whose
management this House must, if they acquit him on this
business, be supposed to approve ?
My right honourable friend has singled Out this transac
tion, because it has two features, which strongly mark the
political conduct of Mr. Hastings ; — contempt of the orders
of his superiors, and an entire disregard of all principles of
justice, moderation, and equity. These pervade all his ac
tions, the whole system of his conduct, and appear to have
taken entire possession of his mind. This transaction with
Sujah Dowlah, and this war against the Rohillas, will give
you an idea of his character, much better than any words
can display it. These two characters are alleged to be
contained in this charge which is brought against him. It
remains for you to decide. And allow me again to intreat
you to remember, that you are not pronouncing merely on
the merits of an individual, but you are laying down a sys
tem of conduct for all future governors in India. The point
is at issue. Your decision is most serious and important.
I pray to Heaven it may be such as will do you honour !
At half past seven in the morning the committee divided, when
there appeared for the motion 67 : against it 119.

u 2

244 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June 1 3.

Articles of Charge against Me. Hastings — Benares
Charge^
June 13.
THE order of the day for going into a committee on the charges
against Warren Hastings, esquire, having been read, the
Speaker left the chair, and Mr. St. Andrew St. John took his seat
at the table.
Mr. Fox then rose, and began a most able and eloquent
speech with observing, that as something like censure had
been cast on his right honourable friend, Mr. Burke, when
the committee were last assembled, for having introduced a
considerable deal of preliminary matter^ generally allusive
to the subject of the several charges, not then under imme
diate consideration, but, in his mind, extremely pertinent
and extremely essential, and as he was convinced, that if
censure could be at all deservedly imputed to his right ho
nourable friend on such an account, it might with much
more foundation and propriety be imputed to him, where he
to attempt to take up the time of the committee, with again
going into the discussion of any topics not immediately con
nected with the subject to which he meant that day to call
their attention ; he, therefore, would make no preliminary
observations whatever, but proceed directly to the matter
upon which he meant to found the motion, which he should
have the honour to offer to the committee, namely, to the
third charge ; — to that relative to the conduct of Mr. Has
tings respecting Benares.
The committee, he trusted, as well from the preliminary
remarks and- arguments of his right honourable friend, as
from what had passed within those walls, were so far familiar
with the subject of all the charges, that he should find it no
very difficult task to make them perfectly masters of the facts
to which he meant to draw their attention. He would begin
with the year 1770, in which Bulwant Sing, the Prince or
Zemindar of the province of Benares, died, and the presi
dency of Calcutta interfered through the medium of Captain
Harper, to procure a confirmation of the succession to his
son, Cheit Sing, and an agreement was entered into between
that Rajah and the Vizier Nabob of Oude, of whom he pur
chased, for valuable considerations, his right and inheritance
in his zemindary, or by whatever other name it might be
called. When Mr. Hastings came over as president of the

I786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 245
supreme council of Calcutta, he found Cheit Sing in pos
session, and in 1773, in the month of October, he was, by
a sunnud granted to him by Sujah Dowlah, obtained by the
instance of Mr. Hastings, acknowledged zemindar of the
province. In 1774, the governor general and council ap
pointed by act of parliament, obtained the sovereignty pa
ramount of the government of the province of Benares ; and
to obviate any misconstruction of the treaty, with regard to
the tenure of the Rajah of Benares, Mr. Hastings himself
proposed at the board, that whatever provision might in the
said treaty be made for the interest of the company, the
same should be " without an encroachment on the rights of
the rajah, or the engagements actually subsisting with him."
On the transfer of the sovereignty, Mr. Hastings proposed
a new grant to be conveyed in new instruments to the Rajah
Cheit Sing, conferring, upon him farther privileges; and
these were the addition of the sovereign rights of the mint,
and of the right of criminal justice of life and death ; Mr.
Hastings proposing the resolution for that purpose in council,
in which were these words, " that the perpetual and inr
dependent possession of the zemindary of Benares, and its
dependencies, be confirmed and guaranteed to the Rajah
Cheit Sing and his heirs, for ever, subject only to the annual
payment of the revenue hitherto paid to the late vizier, &cf
That no other demand be made on him, either by the Nabob
of Oude, or this government." This resolution clearly esta
blished the independency of Cheit Sing, and -shewed it was
the aim of Mr. Hastings to make him independent, Mr,
Fox also read farther in confirmation of this, the following
article of the treaty proposed by Mr. Hastings, on the 5 th
pf July 1775; " That while the rajah shall continue faith
ful to these engagements, and punctual in his payments, and
shall pay due obedience to the authority of this government,
no rnore demands shall be made upon him of any kind ; nor
on any pretence whatsoever shall any person be allowed to
interfere with his authority, or to disturb the peace of his
country." Which article was by the other members of the
council assented to.
The committee would, therefore, please particularly to
carry in their mind, that Cheit Sing had been declared in
dependent, at the express instance of Mr. Hastings, that it
was actually stipulated, that no more demands should be
made upon him, besides his annual tribute, and that tne
stipulation might be the more clear and intelligible, the words
" of any kind" had been added. And yet, shortly after the
deaths of Sir John Clavering and Mr. Monson, Mr. Has
tings, without any previous general communication with the
r 3

246 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June 1 3,.
board, by a minute of consultation, made an extraordinary
demand on the rajah of five lacks of rupees. Exorbitant,
indeed, was this demand, and incompatible with the stipulated
terms of the rajah being declared independent in 1774'
How were the words " no more demands of any kind" to be
interpreted? And by what principle of construction was the
meaning of the stipulation to be made to bear out this ? The
demand, however, was made, and the rajah murmured at it,
and begged that he might be permitted to pay it by instal
ments, and with his quarterly payments; but Mr. Hastings
peremptorily insisted on its being paid by a certain day,
when it. was accordingly paid, though on the express con
dition that the exaction should continue but for one year,
and should not be drawn into precedent. Notwithstanding
this, the same demand was repeated a second year, and, after
some fruitless murmuring and complaint on the part of the
rajah, paid ; a third year a like demand was made, and in
like manner satisfied. Various and extraordinary were the
circumstances of vexation and despotism, under which these
several demands were made, such as a threat at one time, to
inarch the English company's forces in to the province of
Benares to compel payment, &c.
Mr. Fox stated Mr. Hastings's defence of himself against
these facts, and argued upon both the charge and the defence
collectively and comparatively. He next spoke of the requi
sition for all the cavalry that Cheit Sing could spare; and
observed, that General Clavering had by a minute recom
mended it to the rajah to keep up two thousand. From
whence he inferred, that Cheit Sing was left at his discretion
to keep up as many as he chose, and to send that number
only which he could spare. Mr. Hastings, however, after
wards demanded, through his agent, Mr. Markham, two
thousand, afterwards fifteen" hundred, and, after that, he
lowered the requisition to one thousand. But Cheit Sing
sent word, that he had but thirteen hundred, and offered only
five hundred, declaring that he could spare no more, but at
the same time substituted in lieu of the remainder five hun
dred matchlock men. Upon this, Mr. Hastings said, in his
defence, " my patience was exhausted by such repeated acts
of contumacy" — an expression the absurdity of which might
be unanswerably exemplified, by recapitulating the facts to
which it applied. Mr. Hastings, after stipulating that no
more demand of any kind than the annual tribute should be
made upon the rajah, demanded first five lacks of rupees, which
were paid, but with some murmuring ; he next demanded five
lacks more, which were also paid, though with some mur
muring; he again demanded a .third five lacks, and these

S786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 247
again were paid. He then called for two thousand cavalry.
Cheit Sing sent him word he had but thirteen hundred, and
those distributed through his territories; that he could spare no
more than five hundred, and those he should have. Would
ever mortal have construed such conduct as this into contumacy
but Mr. Hastings, who says, " his patience was exhausted by
such repeated acts of contumacy;" and adds, that " he de
termined to convert them into an advantage for the company's
affairs." Mr. Fox upon this monstrous determination rea
soned with great warmth and energy^ appealing to the com
mittee whether they ever before heard of such an idea as
punishing men, not for the great end of all punishment, exam
ple, but — in order to convert it into an advantage for his
employers ! Mr. Fox put this in various strong points of
view, and having here impressed the several facts he had
stated very forcibly on the minds of the committee, proceeded
to mention Mr. Hastings's determination to levy a fine of forty
or fifty lacks of rupees upon Cheit Sing for the imputed con
tumacy, and his journey to Benares for that purpose. He
spoke of his conduct on his arrival in terms of severe repro
bation, declaring, that his language and conduct to the rajah
was rude and insolent in the extreme. Soon after his arrival
he caused Cheit Sing to be put under an arrest in his own
palace, — an instance of unparalleled indignity; for what would
be thought of any tributary prince in Europe being arrested
in his palace by the order of the sovereign paramount ? Would
not his authority be lost for ever? This whole proceeding
provoked Mr. Fox's execration : he condemned and denied
the right of Mr. Hastings to levy and fine ; and contended
that there was no ground for such an unwarrantable stretch
of power, since the conditions of the stipulation had been
all complied with, the rajah having continued faithful in
his engagements and punctual in his payments, and having
paid due obedience to the authority of the British govern
ment. He ridiculed the three rights to fine the subordi
nate princes that Mr. Hastings had, in his defence, laid
claim to. The first of these was, he said, the right derived
from Sujah al Dowlah of fining in case the mint was abused ;
the second was that of imposing a fine for investing, upon
every new possession of the zemindary. This, Mr, Fox obr
served, was a miserable cavil, and a gross perversion of the
word fine, since nothing was more distinct and different than
the meaning of it in the two senses here mentioned ; and the
third right was, he declared, still more extraordinary. In
1764, Bulwant Sing, father of Cheit Sing, departed from his
loyalty and joined Meer Jaffier and the English, against Su
jah al Dowlah, when the latter, as Mr. Hastings stated in his
M

248 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June 1 3.
defence, " would probably have fined him" had not the
English protected him and prevented it.
Mr. Fox diverted himself for some time with the idea of
what Sujah al Dowlah " would probably" have done, had not
the English prevented him. He pressed also upon the com
mittee the declaration of Mr. Hastings, that according to the
institutes of Jengheez Khawn or Tamerlane, the rights of the
subject are nothing, while the power of the sovereign is every
thing, and urged the injustice of such a despotic maxim with
great energy. He next took notice of the inordinate vanity
and presumption of Mr. Hastings in saying, that if Cheit
Sing was a great prince, he as his sovereign, was a great king.
In order to shew the absurdity of this, he put the case thus :
Suppose the Emperor of Germany were to send an am
bassador to the Elector of Hanover or the Elector of Branden-
burgh, and he were to tell either of them, " if you are a great
elector, I am a great emperor." Having pushed the ridicule
to some extent, he returned to his narrative of what had hap
pened at Benares, and stated all the facts of the ill treatment
of the rajah, subsequent to his having been put under an arrest,
to the massacre of the British, and the escape of Cheit Sing.
Mr. Fox after having gone through the whole of the facts,
proceeded to take notice of the fourth and fifth articles of the
charge which he said he should speak to shortly, considering
them rather as matters of aggravation, superadded to the
treatment of Cheit Sing, than as charges of much importance
themselves. He then stated all the circumstances that took
place at the castle of Bidgigur, and of the inducements to
plunder, held out by Mr. Hastings to the soldiery, descant
ing on the mischievous consequences of such a practice, a doc
trine for which he declared he had the authority of Mr. Has
tings himself, who some years before had written a declara
tion that " the very idea of prize money suggested to his re
membrance the former disorders which arose in their army
from that source, and had almost proved fatal to it. Of this
circumstance you must be sufficiently apprized, and of the
necessity for discouraging every expectation of this kind
amongst the troops; it is to be avoided like poison, &c."
Having thus proved how very contradictorily Mr. Hastings
had behaved in that respect, he mentioned the strange sort of
affidavits and depositions that were made for the purpose of
imputing suspicions of disloyalty and designs to rebel to Cheit
Sing. One of these from a person deeply interested in the
ruin of the rajah he read, to shew the House that almost
all the allegations it contained were on hearsay evidence
only. Mr. Fox came at last to the fourth and fifth articles, and

I786.] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 249
stated the appointment of Derbege Sing to act as representa
tive of the abdicated rajah, and his being soon afterwards de
prived of his office, and thrown into prison, and the admi
nistration of affairs given to Jagher Deo Seo, who levied and
collected the revenue with extraordinary severity to the great
oppression of the natives. He also read the celebrated letter
to the council at Calcutta, from Mr. Hastings at Lucknow,
which was deemed so disgraceful to the British government ;
and he appealed to the common sense of the committee, if it
was to be wondered at that Jagher Deo Seo should be rigor
ous in his collection of the revenue, when it was considered
what an example Mr. Hastings had held out to him ?
After having circumstantially gone through the whole, and
applied a great deal of reasoning as he proceeded, in order to
elucidate and enforce the criminality of the facts, he at length
appealed to the honour and justice of the House, to decide
by their vote of that evening, whether they chose to be con
sidered as the avengers of those oppressed by Mr. Hastings,
or his accomplices ? There was, he declared, no alternative.
They must either appear as the one or as the other. He re
collected the language that had been held in 1782, when that
code of laws, the resolutions were voted, and when it had
been well said by an honourable and learned gentleman op
posite, (Mr. Dundas) that Mr. Hastings scarcely ever left the
walls of Calcutta, that his steps were not followed with the
deposition of some prince, the desertion of some ally, or the
depopulation of some country. How oddly, then, must have
sounded in his ears, the arguments in justification of the Ro
hilla war, that had lately come from the bench on which the
learned gendeman sat — arguments that appeared to him to
be the voice of the directors and proprietors of old defending
those servants who had disobeyed their orders, and disgraced
the British character by their rapine and injustice, but had
taken care to make the company sharers in the spoil, by re
mitting home the produce of their plunder in investments, so
as to ensure a good dividend to the proprietors !
There had been, he acknowledged, something like a colour
for the vote the committee had come to respecting the Rohilla
war ; the extreme distance of the time at which it happened,
the little information the House had of it till of late, the
alleged important services of Mr. Hastings since, (though he
maintained that they were neither meritorious nor services),
and other causes and justifications ; but there were none such
to be urged against voting on the present occasion. The
facts were all of them undeniable, and they were atrocious,
and they were important ; so much so, that upon the vote of
that night, would, in his mind, the fate of Bengal depend.

25° CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [June 1 3.
Happy was it for them that they could plead ignorance of
East India affairs for so long a period ! It was the best salvo
for their honours, and could be advanced with confidence as an
argument, that the individual servants of the company alone
had been guilty of all the enormities that had disgraced and
disgusted Indostan, but that they had neither participated in
the guilt, nor approved of the principle upon which it had
been carried on. The facts had now been brought before
them, and that in so able, so clear, so comprehensive and in
telligible a point of view, that they had no longer their former
plea to fly to for an excuse. They must do something, and
they might rejoice that the happy hour was arrived when they
might make the distinction manifest to all the world, between
the enormities committed by individuals, and the sense of a
British House of Commons, as to the system under which
those enormities have been committed. From their vote that
night, France and all Europe, would learn what the system of
government was, that they chose to be carried on in India,
and it would be seen whether they determined, upon suf
ficient proof of this guilt, to reprobate oppression and punish
the oppressor. He never would be the advocate of despotism,
but he had, he said, often heard it argued, that the happiness
of a people was secure, where the despot's mind was virtuous.
He never had heard it contended, that the most despotic had
a right to use his power for the misery of those under him,
and not for their happiness. He thanked his right honour
able friend, therefore, for having brought the charges forward.
In one shape or other, they must have been subjected to discus
sion; and, let the House in general decide as they thought pro
per, what had passed would prove, that there were Englishmen
who did not avow those principles which had originated in
the corrupt heart of a most corrupt individual ; but that they
set their faces against them and execrated the conduct, which
had been marked with the most gross oppression, inhumanity
and injustice. Nor was it in his mind, Mr. Fox said, enough
that the House should content itself with the punishment of
an oppressor, it ought also to make atonement to the op
pressed. He heartily wished, therefore, that all that had been
taken from individuals could be restored ; but as that neces
sarily could not be proceeded upon just at present, he should,
till an opportunity offered, content himself with singling out
an offender for justice.
Mr. Fox emphatically repeated, that they must appear
either as the avengers of the oppressed or the accomphces of
their oppressor. He hoped they would not confess themselves
the accomplices of Mr. Hastings, but would assume the nobler
character. He added an infinite number of warm appeals to

1786.] ADDRESS ON THE KINg's SPEECH. 25I
the feelings of the committee, and before he sat down, moved
" That this committee, having considered the third article of
the charge of high crimes and misdemeanours against War
ren Hastings, esq. late governor general of Bengal, and ex
amined evidence thereupon, is of opinion, that there is
ground for impeaching the said Warren Hastings, esq. of
high crimes and misdemeanors, upon the matter of the said
article." Mr. Pitt concurred with the motion, but upon very narrow
ground. He thought that the demands made upon the rajah went
beyond the exigence of the case, and that Mr. Hastings had pushed
the exercise of the arbitrary discretion entrusted to him beyond the
necessity of the service. The conduct of the minister on this oc
casion drew upon him much calumny from the friends of Mr.
Hastings ; they did not hesitate to accuse him out of doors, both
publicly and privately, of treachery. They declared it was in the
full confidence of his protection and support, that they had urged
on Mr. Burke to bring forward his charges ; and that the gentle
man accused had been persuaded to come to their bar, with an
hasty and premature defence : and they did not scruple to contri
bute this conduct in the minister to motives of the basest jealousy.
Nearly the same persons took a part in this debate as in the former,
and it was carried by^ majority of 119 to 79.

Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of
the Session.
January 23. 1787.
ON the 23rd of January, his majesty opened the session with the
following speech to both Houses :
" My lords and gentlemen ; I have particular satisfaction in ac
quainting you, that since I last met you in parliament, the tranquil
lity of Europe has remained uninterrupted, and that all foreign
powers continue to express their friendly disposition to this coun
try. — I have concluded a treaty of navigation and commerce with
the most christian king, a copy of which shall be laid before you.
I must recommend it to you to take such measures as you shall
judge proper for carrying it into effect; and I trust you will
find that the provisions contained in it are calculated for the en
couragement of industry and the extension of lawful commerce in
both countries, and, by promoting a beneficial intercourse be
tween our respective subjects, appear likely to give additional per
manence to the blessings of peace. I shall keep the same salutary
10

252 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH, [Jan. 23.
objects in view in the commercial arrangements which I am ne
gotiating with other powers. — I have also given directions for lay
ing before you a copy of a convention agreed upon between me and
the catholic king, for carrying into effect the sixth article of the
last treaty of peace,
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons; I have ordered the
estimates for the present year to be laid before you ; and I have
the fullest reliance on your readiness to make the provision for the
several branches of the public service. The state of the revenue
will, I am persuaded, continue to engage your constant attention,
as being essentially connected with the national credit, and the
prosperity and safety of my dominions.
" My lords and gentlemen ; A plan has been formed, by my
direction, for transporting a number of convicts, in order to remove
the inconvenience which arose from the crouded state of the gaols
in different parts of the kingdom ; and you will, I doubt not, take
such farther measures as may be necessary for this purpose. I
trust you will be able this session to carry into effect regulations
for the ease of the merchants, and for simplifying the public
accounts in the various branches of the revenue ; and I rely upon
the uniform continuance of your exertions in pursuit of such objects
as may tend still farther to improve the national resources, and to
promote and confirm the welfare and happiness of my people."
On the usual address being moved by Lord Compton and seconds
ed by Mr. Matthew Montague,
Mr. Fox rose and declared, that there was not in the speech
nor in the address one sentiment which he did not fully agree
with, nor which he was not ready to avow. Indeed, he should
have been exceedingly sorry had there been occasion for any
difference of opinion respecting an address beginning with ex
pressions of congratulation to his majesty, upon an event, in
the failure of which every man, of every party and description,
both within and without those walls, must be of one and the
same mind, and must cordially and sincerely join in the most
heart-felt joy and satisfaction. He was glad, therefore, that
the address had been so properly worded, that it did not call
for opposition or objection of any sort, since, without pledging
the House to an approbation of the treaty of commerce, or to
any future vote upon the subject, it barely returned thanks for
his majesty's gracious communication of the fact, and pro
mised to consider it, when properly before the House, with
the attention which a matter of such infinite importance well
deserved. That being the case, and as from the subject of the early
part of the address, it must be to be wished, that such an ad
dress should pass nemine contradicente, he assured the House
he would not object to it, and that, in all probability, he should
have contented himself with giving his silent vote on theques-
16

I?87-J ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 2£3
tion then before the House, had not something fallen from the
noble lord and the honourable gentleman, who moved and
seconded the address, and particularly from the latter, that
looked so like grasping at general principles, as the principles
upon which the commercial treaty was to be maintained, that
he thought it necessary to rise then, and in as few words as
possible, take some notice of those principles, which he would
do in a general manner, without entering at all into detail
upon the treaty, which he was well aware was neither properly
before the House, nor then under discussion, but which he
would give his sentiments upon at a future opportunity.
The noble lord who moved the address, and the honour
able gentleman who seconded it, had contrasted the uncer
tainty of war with the solid advantages of peace, and the sub-
tantial benefits of commerce with the destructive means of
conquest, as if it were a fact, that this country had ever gone
to war for the sake of extending dominion, or gratifying a lust
of power, and an inordinate ambition. The fact, he declared
was notoriously otherwise, and he was enough of an English
man to rise in vindication of his country, and assert in that
assembly, and he would assert the same in an assembly ap
pointed to hear the cause of nations, were it possible for such
an assembly to exist, that in all our wars — all our late
wars at least — this country had not gone to war for the sake
of ambition, nor with a view to acquire extension of dominion,
but had been forced to take up arms either in her own defence,
or fbr the sake of defending the liberties, and balance of power'
of Europe, endangered by the over-weening pride of France,
and her alarming endeavours to grasp at, the government of
all the European powers of this quarter of the globe. This,
any one who looked into the history of this country, would
find to be the true state of the case ; he therefore denied, in
the most unequivocal manner, that any insinuations to the pre
judice of this country, as if she had heretofore gone to war for
the mere sake of triumph and of conquest, had any, the small
est foundation in truth. Every man knew, that peace was
preferable to war ; commerce preferable to conquest : it would
be highly preposterous to advance an opposite opinion ; and
upon that principle had the government of this country been
uniformly conducted for the last century.
After dwelling upon these points for some time, with his
usual warmth and energy, Mr. Fox adverted to the treaty with
France, upon which, he said, he had not yet made up his
mind ; nor was it possible for him so to do, until the treaty
was not only properly before the House, but until he had
heard from his majesty's ministers a full explanation of the
real character of the measure. He was not yet aware whether

4$4 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Jan. 23.
it was to be considered as a treaty having a political tendency,
and calculated to operate in the manner of an alliance with
France, or whether it was to be considered as a treaty merely
commercial, and as having no other effect than the establish
ment of a commercial intercourse with the neighbouring king
dom. In one or other of these lights the treaty must have
been made, and in one or other of these lights must minis
ters mean that it should be regarded ; but, then, it could
be considered in one of these lights only, and not in both.
One of them must be denied, and the other avowed : one
defended and the other disclaimed. Not meaning to go into
the treaty then, and not having the information that ministers
possessed, it was not in his power to say which of the two
descriptions was the proper one ; but thus much he was wil
ling to say beforehand, and without any further information
on the subject; namely, that he should be much better pleased
if ministers were to declare that they meant it merely as a
commercial treaty, and that France understood it as such,
and as such only. In that case ministers would have to
prove, that it did not provide a new channel of commerce at
the expence of all the other ancient channels, which this king
dom had long been in possession of, and which had been
found to be sources of commercial wealth and prosperity. If,
on the other hand, ministers avowed that the treaty was meant
as a pohtical measure, and that they had in view that sort of
connection that should render it more difficult for France
and this country to go to war than heretofore, they then would
have to shew strong and satisfactory reasons for their having
pursued and concluded a measure so new in the annals of this
country, and of such infinite magnitude and importance.
Mr. Fox took a general view of the conduct of France to
wards this country, and towards all the powers of Europe.
He desired it to be remembered, that France had only chang
ed her means — not her end. Her object had uniformly been
the same, though her system of acting was different. In the
reign of Louis the fourteenth, the aim of France was open
and avowed ; the means she employed to attain her end, of
fensive, arrogant, and shameless. She had seen her error,
and acted upon principles of a wiser policy ; her means were
now more mild, more amiable, more benevolent. They did
her humanity credit; they allured, they conciliated, they
worked her purpose secretly, but securely. Formerly, op
pression and power were her engines; engines offensive to
all who beheld their unjustifiable exercise, and such as
could not fail to rouse general indignation, and animate to
resistance every power that had a spark of spirit, of gene
rosity, or of goodness in its composition. Hence the weak

17^7-3 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 255
found advocates, the oppressed protection; and hence the
daring attempts at universal monarchy, made by Louis the
fourteenth, were opposed, baffled, repelled, and frustrated.
What was the engine with which France operated her wished
for end at diis time ? Influence ! that secret and almost resist
less power ; that power with which ambition gains its purpose,
almost imperceptibly, but much more effectually than with
any other.
At this time, too, it ought, Mr. Fox said, to be held in
mind, that Louis the sixteenth possessed abundantly more
power than ever Louis the fourteenth could boast of, and that
superiority, great as it was, would in all probability, be con
siderably heightened very shortly. At such a moment then,
was it right to enter into a connection by treaty with the
christian king? How was it to be accounted for, but by sup
posing that there were in this country some men so dazzled
with the splendour of Louis the sixteenth, so conscious of the
eminence of power which France had lately attained, that
they sunk before it, and, lost in their own despondency,
thought it right for us, diminished as our splendour was, in
comparison with the aggrandizement of our continental neigh
bour, to seize the earliest moment of making terms with
her, forming a connection by treaty, and by that means artfully
securing a claim to her protection. Far was it from him to
intend to charge the right honourable gentleman opposite to
him, the present chancellor of the exchequer, with entertain
ing such abject opinions, or with thinking of abandoning all
expectation of the possibility of France being once more hum
bled ; but, he was persuaded there were men in the country,
so lost to the memory of its former greatness, as to feel in the
manner he had mentioned, and to advise and act upon the
littleness of their own minds.
Having put this forcibly, Mr. Fox asked to what motives
were we to ascribe the sudden civility of France towards us ?
Was it to be considered as a proof of her moderation ? Had
she entered into the treaty with a view to give the lie to the
old and rooted opinions of philosophy, that it was a prin
ciple inherent in human nature to be eager to acquire more,
in proportion as a great deal more than could have been ex
pected, was already acquired? Did she mean to clear up
her character at once, and do away the libellous charge so
long alleged against her, that she was actuated by overween
ing ambition, and an insatiable thirst after extension of power ?
Glorious conduct, if such was its principle and its motive !
Matchless self-denial ! to abjure the acquirement of almost
irresistible power, when it was rendered so easy.

^$6 ADDRESS ON the king's speech. [Jan. 23.
But, could any man in his senses believe in the splendid
allusion ? Could any statesman think that moderation, at a
moment when moderation seemed least necessary, was the
real and true motive that had induced France, to put us in a
state that had the appearance of rendering all future hostili
ties between her and Great Britain almost impossible to hap
pen ? Let those, who thought so, recollect, that paradoxical
as the assertion might appear, the cabinet of France had been
the most consistent in its conduct of any that ever existed,
Notwithstanding the genius and character of the French, as
a people ; notwithstanding the levity of their manners, the
fickleness of their minds, the constitutional mutability of their
conduct, the cabinet of France, as a cabinet, had uniformly
acted upon the same principle, aiming at the same end, and
only changing the means of attaining that end, as the necessity
of the times, and as the suggestion of a wiser policy dictated.
If ministers supposed that France acted upon a principle of
sincerity and friendship towards us, let them point out the
proofs of that friendship. The way to judge of the friendly
intentions of those with whom we negotiate, was not, he said,
by looking to the manner of their negociating with us, but
their conduct with other powers, as far as it regarded our
interests. Ministers might, as yet, be said to be in the honey
moon of their connection with France. Had they, during
that period, felt the influence of France greatly operating in
our favour with those powers with whom we were negociating
treaties ? Did it manifest itself in the court of Portugal, in
the court of Spain, or in the court of Petersburgh ? Were
the symptoms of it strongly traceable at any one of these
courts ? Where else was a svmptom of it to be found ? At
this time France, that formerly was celebrated for having the
most powerful army of any European nation, had an army
the fourth only upon the continent ; Prussia, the emperor, and
Russia, had much greater armies. What was the reason of
this ? The reason was obvious. France relied for her secu
rity on other means of defence — on the influence she pos
sessed with the neighbouring powers, and the alliances she
had formed. Those circumstances enabled her to diminish
her land force, to reduce her army, and direct all her attention
to her marine. Was her doing so a favourable symptom to
this country ? Did it indicate any extraordinary proportion
of partiality towards Great Britain ?
The honourable gentleman who had, with considerable
ability and much to his own credit, seconded the address,
had laid down a position, the language of which was more
elegant than the sentiment, he feared, was just. He had said,
that in abandoning the monopoly of our trade with America,

1787-] , ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 257
and opening a commercial intercourse with France, we gave
up a precarious and ill-paid annuity, for a fee simple, with
prompt and constant payment. The expression was cap
tivating, and the style of it beautiful ; no wonder, therefore,
that the House appeared to feel it, and gave tokens of their
satisfaction. But, was the position true? Could the benefits
that might result from our commercial intercourse, whatever
they might turn out, be compared to a fee simple, with prompt
payment ? Surely not. What was to ensure us the stability
and permanency of peace ? A commercial treaty with France ?
No means, Mr. Fox said, appeared to him less likely to pro
cure such an effect. Instead of a fee simple with constant
payment, the more apt comparison would be an annuity, the
payment of which was liable to frequent interruption. Did
history encourage us to expect a long duration of peace, or
were we weak enough to imagine that France, from her pre
sent enjoyment of uncommon power, was therefore less likely
to break with us ? Let former precedents teach a better pru
dence. Refer to the records of the best and most authentic
historians, and it would be found that France was most in
clined to preserve peace, when she was most humiliated and
degraded. This country had been often charged with having
borne herself arrogantly and dictatorially after the close of a
triumphant war ; but had it ever been said, that success
checked the pride, or reduced the overweening ambition of
France ? Past experience proved, that whenever France saw
this country weak, and thought her incapable of effectually
resisting, she seized the opportunity^, and aimed at effecting
her long-desired destruction. What prompted her to com
mence her hostile attacks at the beginning of the war pre
ceding the last ? The occasion was flattering, it promised easy
success, and the opportunity was irresistible. A similar op
portunity would, doubtless, produce similar consequences. It
was idle, therefore, to suppose that France, who had really
had such frequent reason to consider Great Britain as her
most powerful rival, and had received so many checks from
her, that she had long wished to annihilate her as a state
whose enmity was to be dreaded, would all of a sudden for
get her resentment, and, just at that moment when there ap
peared to be the least rational motive to prompt her, aban
don a purpose she had long and uniformly endeavoured to
atchieve. Mr. Fox observed, that his majesty had been graciously
pleased to declare in his speech, that a copy of the treaty
should be laid before the House. That instrument alone, he
believed, would neither enable the House nor himself to form
any decision upon the propriety of the treaty. Before the
vol. 111. s

358 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Jan. 23.
House could justify any vote upon the subject, they would
undoubtedly expect to hear from his majesty's ministers,
the state of the various other treaties at this time nego
ciating. At present, there were more in agitation than
this country perhaps ever had at one time before — the
treaty with Russia, the treaty with Spain, and the treaty
with Portugal. As ministers had, a twelvemonth ago,
boasted of the facility with which the treaty with Russia
might be brought to a conclusion, he presumed, that it either
was concluded, or so near conclusion, that it might fairly be
considered the same as concluded ; he would therefore say
nothing upon this part of the subject. But it was material
to know in what situation the treaty with Portugal stood.
Perhaps the present treaty with France virtually annulled
and abrogated the treaty with Portugal, commonly known
by the name of the Methuen treaty. It was also important
to know how the treaty stood with Spain ; because, if the
House meant to act as statesmen on the occasion, it was im
possible for them to come to any warrantable decision respect
ing the treaty with France, without being fully apprized of
the relative situation of every other existing treaty, or treaty
that was at present negociating.
In order more strikingly to elucidate this argument, Mr. Fox
said, that possibly the present connection with France might
operate to the destruction of all our former connections
with other powers so far, that when, at a future period,
France might think it worth her while to break with us, we
should find ourselves destitute of friends, and universally
abandoned. Two years, he observed, had been given in the
definitive treaty, as the period, by the end of which a com
mercial treaty with France was obliged to be concluded,
clearly that ministers might have time to look about them, to
see how old treaties stood with other powers, and to conclude
such new ones as appeared most likely to conduce to the in
terest of Great Britain, before they entered into any treaty
with France.
He said, he might possibly be misrepresented both at
home and abroad, as a man so far prepossessed by illiberal and
vulgar prejudices against France, as to wish never to enter
into any connection with her. Be that as it might, he should
not easily forget that those prejudices against France, and
that jealousy, which had for years prevailed, of her ambition,
had been productive of no bad consequences to this country ;
on the contrary, that the wars grounded on our alarms at her
stretches after inordinate power, and the jealousy which we
had entertained of her desire to overturn the balance of power
in Europe, had made this country great and glorious. He

1787-] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 259
adverted to the peace of Utrecht, and talked of the bugbear
which the ministers of that day had set up to frighten the people
into a belief that peace was absolutely necessary, namely, the
probability of the House of Austria requiring an improper
share of power. He alluded also to the circumstances that
characterised the history of Holland, and its present situation
and future prospects.
Speaking of the convention with Spain, for carrying into effect
the sixth article of the treaty of peace, he said he did not see,
nor could he admit the necessity for entering into any such
convention : that the article was sufficiently intelligible, and
had ever appeared so to him, though he was awane there
had been some doubts stated respecting its proper construc
tion : that thecountry to be evacuated under the convention
was a part of the Musquito coast, that never had, before the
treaty, been considered as belonging to the crown of Spain ;
and that instead of being a mere spot for the cutting of log
wood, it was an actual British colony. To oblige the inha
bitants and settlers, therefore, to evacuate it by February,
would be an act of the most horrible injustice, because it
would be to oblige them to quit their possessions before they
could reap the fruits of their industry, which must, in » that
case be left in the ground. Mr. Fox descanted upon this
for a considerable time, and asked, for what purpose such a
cession could have been made ? He should have supposed,
he said, that if England had a treaty in hand with the court
of Madrid, and a cession to make which that court was desi
rous of having made to her, it would have been political to
have held back the boon that Spain was anxious to obtain, till
after the objects of our wishes, as stipulated for in the treaty
negociating, were complied with. Possibly, the cession was
made before hand, in order to put Spain in a humour to
grant us what we wanted with the greater cheerfulness.
After animadverting upon this matter with obvious irony,
and touching upon a variety of particular points, to which
the treaty with France appeared to him to have a natural and
necessary reference, Mr. Fox declared, that he joined most
heartily in the congratulation of his majesty, on an event,
which nothing but the phrenzy of a lunatic could have induced,
and which it became the character of the nation to act upon,
exactly as they had done. Having mentioned this in a style
that spoke the master of the art of oratory, and intreated the
pardon of the House for having taken up so much of their
time, which he declared he would not have done had he not
thought it necessary to repel the French mode of talking
that had fallen from the noble lord who moved, and the ho-
s 2

3.6*0 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 2.
nourable gentleman who seconded the address, and to rescue
the nation from being thought liable to such reflections, Mr.
Fox concluded with giving an affirmative to the address.

Treaty of Commerce with France.
February 1.
MR. Pitt having given notice that it was his intention to move
that the treaty of navigation and commerce with France be
taken into consideration on the 1 2th instant. Mr. Fox said he
thought the day much too early ; so much so, that he was amazed
that the right honourable gentleman should think of naming it.
Lord George Cavendish intimated, that as the treaty was a matter
of great importance, in as much as it deranged all our ancient and
established treaties of commerce with other countries, a call of the
House might be proper. Mr. Pitt replied, that although sincerely
anxious to have so important a subject investigated before the ful
lest assembly possible, yet he believed, from the circumstances of
the present suggestion, that he' should be justified 'in giving it his
negative. In short, he looked upon the suggestion in no other
light, but as an artifice to delay the consideration of a subject, on
which reason and sound policy required a speedy determination.
If a call of the House were really necessary, what excuse could
be made by the noble lord, or any of his friends, for having delayed
it so long ? Was it, that, until the present moment, they had -
never considered the French treaty as an object of sufficient im
portance to justify" a call of the House? or would they pretend to
say, that they had never known, until now, that it was the inten
tion of his majesty's ministers to bring it forward as early in the
session as possible ? He begged leave to remind the noble lord of
the expressions of a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) who
sat near him on a former day, " that the pending treaty had given
rise to so many speculations, and had so materially affected the ope
rations of our manufacturers and merchants, that it became highly
necessary to bring it to as speedy a conclusion as possible, in order
to put an end to that suspense which its present unfinished state
must necessarily give rise to, and a continuance of which must be
highly detrimental to the interests of those concerned."
Mr. Fox rose with great warmth to declare, that he never
would consent that the House was to neglect its duty to the
country, and go precipitately into the consideration of a mea
sure of great national importance, because any set of men
whatever, however respectable their characters, however nu-

1 7 87.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 26 1
merous their description, had thought proper to run before
the sanction of parliament, and enter into speculations which
they were by no means warranted to risque engaging in. The
right honourable gentleman had alluded to what had fallen
from him on a former day, as if he had called for a precipitate
and hasty discussion of the treaty ; whereas, whathe had said, was
not that because any set of men had rashly speculated upon the
grounds of the treaty before it had received the sanction of
parliament, the deliberation of the House ought therefore
to be accelerated, but that whenever the House had delibe
rated upon it, and passed a vote of approbation — should such
a vote pass — it was their indispensable duty to proceed to the
carrying it into execution with all possible celerity, in order
to realize those speculations, that the vote and sanction of the
House might, as it were, have authorised and encouraged.
It was the execution and not the deliberation, that he wished
to have hastened, and therefore, when the right honourable
gentleman thought proper to quote what he had said on any
former day, he wished he would be so good as to quote him
with something like correctness. It was the characteristic of
the right honourable gentleman's administration to be preci
pitate in deliberation, and lingering in execution. In most
of his measures he had been hasty in coming to the decision
of a vote, and he had almost as often had occasion to-lament
the want of greater deliberation ; but he had scarpely ever been
equally prompt to carry the vote into execution after it had
passed. With regard to the call of the House suggested by
his noble friend, he was astonished at the right honourable
gentleman's objecting to it. A call of the House had some
times been vexatiously made, but it had scarcely ever been
refused when desired by any member. That it was now in
common decency proper, who would be hardy enough to
deny ? A rneasure more novel, or more important, had per
haps never come under the consideration of the House. The
right honourable gentleman told them himself the measure
was important ; the House knew it to be important ; the whole
country felt it to be important. Would the business, did the
right honourable gentleman think, derive a grace in the eyes
of foreign courts, from its being there known to have been
rashly and precipitately brought on, and that a call of the
House, a thing usual in cases of infinitely less magnitude, had
heen refused ? There was something so ungracious in a refusal,
that he was astonished the right honourable gentleman would
hazard it.
Mr. Pitt ridiculed the idea of procrastinating the consideration
of the treaty, under the specious pretext of more serious delibera-
S 3

262 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 2.
tion. It was in fact only an affectation of deliberation, for it was
nothing more than putting off, as long as possible, the time
for beginning to deliberate, which, in effect, was the sure way to
render their deliberations short and sudden — it was like taking
time to deliberate previous to deliberation, and put him in mind
of the notion of a man falling down in a fit of apoplexy thinking
of nothing. Mr. Fox replied, that he never had dreamt of arguing in
the illogical, nonsensical, and absurd manner that the right
honourable gentleman had ascribed to him ; though he was
ready to admit, that on a former day the right honourable
gentleman had so represented him to have argued ; but that
misrepresentation had been so ably and so completely cor
rected and cleared up by two of his honourable friends, (Mr.
Francis and Mr. Burke) that he had not thought it necessary
on that day to trouble the House with any explanation him
self. Indeed, it would have been a bad argument for him to
have used, had he urged the necessity of precipitating the de
liberation of the commercial treaty with France, in the very
same speech in which he was maintaining, that it was impossi
ble for the House to be competent to decide on that treaty,
unless they previously had submitted to them, authentic infor
mation of the state of our trade with Portugal, as it stood at pre
sent, and as it was likely to stand hereafter. With regard to the
right honourable gentleman's quibble, that if the day of deli
beration was deferred, the House would be in the state of a
man, who fell down in a fit of apoplexy, thinking of nothing,
in the interval of the delay, he neither thought the sort of al
lusion very decent to use within those walls, nor was it at all
respectful to the House, talking of them generally, to apply
such an allusion to them. The right honourable gentleman
was welcome to apply such allusions to him personally, but to
the rest of the House, a little more decency and respect was
due. Did he believe that the House," because they at any
time postponed the deliberation of any measure of great na
tional importance, from one day to another, " thought of no
thing" in the interval? Was it a fact, that gentlemen so far
lost sight of and neglected their duty, as not to prepare them
selves without doors for the discussion of great questions to be
decided in parliament ? Many measures were of a nature, to
the proper consideration of which, few of the members of that
House were competent. Questions of commerce and trade,
more especially, were questions, which members of parlia
ment, generally speaking, were not quite so well informed
upon as other persons. Before gentlemen, therefore, could
make up their minds to the proper vote they ought to give on-
16

1787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 263
the treaty, they must inform themselves by conversing with
those whose avocations and professions enabled them to be
more conversant with commercial subjects. As to the day of
deliberation being desired to be procrastinated, it was a ne
cessary procrastination, and not as the right honourable gen
tleman had called it, " an affectation of deliberation, and a
mere putting off the day of beginning to discuss the treaty,"
What was the day ? Perhaps the debate might be pf so much
length as to be adjourned, and so occupy two days or more.
Still it would be but a single debate, and would all be de
cided by a single vote. Would the right honourable gentle
man, therefore, contend, that too much reasonable time could
be taken in order to enable gentlemen to examine a question of
so much novelty, and such acknowledged importance, before
they came ultimately to decide upon it by their vote ? If the
argument of the right honourable gentleman, that the im
portance of the question alone was a greater motive to cause a
full attendance than any call of the House, were a sound one,
upon that principle, all the calls of the House that had hi
therto taken place, had been idle and absurd.

February 5.
Mr. Pitt having moved that the House should resolve itself into
a committee on that day sevennight, to take into consideration
that part of the king's speech which related to the treaty of navi
gation and commerce with France, Lord George Cavendish said,
that thinking that on a discussion so truly important, there should
be the fullest possible attendance of the representatives of thepeo
ple, it was his design to move for a call of the House. He wished
to do this in order ; but the motion now made by the right honour
able gentleman precluded him. The period was too short for a
call. He must therefore move an amendment, by substituting the
words, " this day fortnight" for " this day se'nnight," and then he
should follow the motion thus amended by a motion for a call of
the House. The Speaker having stated the question,
Mr. Fox rose, and remarked that in consequence of the
numerous opportunities which had arisen to confirm his idea,
that the disposition of the right honourable the chancellor of
the exchequer was sanguine even to excess, he felt a slighter
degree of astonishment at discovering that on this, as on other
important topics, he should violently urge on the House to
the consideration of the treaty. But the same experience
which he in common with other members had of the conse
quences of rashly falling in with the wishes of the right ho
nourable gentleman in this respect, prevented him from rea-
* 4

264 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. §.
dily believing that the House would go rashly with him into a
discussion, so novel in its quality, and so pregnant with con
sequences either good or the contrary. It was a new system,
in which not only the established doctrines of our forefathers
were departed from, but by which the great and most essen
tial principles in our commerce, principles which, whether
wise or erroneous, had made us opulent, were to be com
pletely changed. Surely, a system affecting thus our com
merce in its most vital parts, affecting our most intimate and
advantageous connections, and which, though it held out
present profit to certain branches of our manufactures,
threatened, according to some opinions, ultimate and final
loss to them all, if to be admitted at all, was a system only
to be admitted after the most serious and deliberate discussion.
What must be the consequences to the character of the na
tion — what to the dignity of their proceedings, if they
should suffer this business to go forth from their hands, ac
cepted on bad grounds, partially stated and not thoroughly
understood ?
There was one thing particular in this treaty — one in
which it differed from all that ever went before it, and which
tended very much to strengthen the argument fbr a serious de
liberation — and that was, that we must take it all or none.
It was not a measure, into the detail of which the House could
enter with the precaution incident to other topics, of adopting
only what part they liked. They must adopt and embrace
the whole of the system, or reject it all. On this occasion,
though he would not be construed to say, that the general
vote given by the House would preclude them from going into
the- detail, still there was in this measure something essen
tially different from most questions; for their going into a
committee on that day se'nnight, as they were desired to do,
was not to be considered as the beginning of their deliberation
— but, on that first discussion, the opinion of the House was,
to be called for, he supposed, to the general question of the
admission of the treaty. It was, therefore, highly incum
bent on them that they should have time maturely to weigh
the consequences of a vote which was to have so much effect
on the final discussion of the subject. An occurrence had
arisen, the memory of which ought to influence the House
on the present occasion — the treaty of navigation and com
merce with Ireland: that treaty which was better known to
the House by the Irish name of the Irish propositions. On
that subject, as on the present, the right honourable gentle
man deprecated delay. He objected to the arguments of those
who recommended to him time and thought. He desired
then, as now, to hurry them on without consideration —
ii

J7^7'] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 265
without time for inquiry — or for collecting the opinions of
those who were the most able to judge of the expediency of
the measure. Ought not the right honourable gentleman to
be thankful to the House for not yielding to his rash propo
sals ? For what must have been the consequences to this
country if the propositions had passed in the undigested shape
in which the right honourable gentleman brought them into
parliament, and pressed them on its acceptance ? All the dan
gers would have been incurred which the right honourable
gentleman himself afterwards so forcibly enumerated. For
tunate for the country was the wise caution of the House in
that instance — fortunate for the right honourable gentleman
himself — fortunate, indeed, had been his failing in this as
well as in other pursuits, when he has been rescued by the
wisdom of the House from the dangers of his own rashness !
Never had -the good fortune of the right honourable gentle
man been more apparent than when he had been unwillingly
brought to delay the discussion of his hasty projects ; and when
the good sense and sober judgment of the House had snatched
him from the impending ruin of his sanguine measures. It was
not only in the instance of the Irish propositions that he had
been thus fortunately checked. He had also brought in a
plan for a commercial treaty with America, and that would
admit of no possible delay. The House however, had taught
him the rashness of the proceeding ; and that bill he never
brought again into the House. On that subject he had been
made completely to change his mind, in consequence of the
lights which he received by prudent delay.
The House would please to consider the size of the object
which they were thus required without the necessary infor
mation being granted, and without even providing for a full
attendance of members, by a call of the House, decidedly
to investigate. They were to consider its influence on all
that was great in the features of their general commerce —
in the principles under which, whether, right or wrong, that
commerce had flourished — and in its power over their con
nections with other states, and particularly Portugal. He
must still urge how greatly he felt himself alarmed at the state
of our connection with that power. He was not convinced that it
would be wise for England to enter into a commercial connec
tion with France, unless it was clearly demonstrated that such
a connection was in no wise to affect our valuable connection
with Portugal. What was the alternative of this treaty ? If
there was to be no sacrifice of the revenue arising from wine,
there was to be a sacrifice of the Methuen treaty. If the
Methuen treaty was not to be sacrificed, then there was to be
a sacrifice of revenue in the article of wines only, to the

266 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 5.
amount of between 150 and 2oo,oool. a year. He surely
should not, in spite of this immense loss, hesitate a moment, if
the necessity of the alternative was apparent, which side to
take ; for the Methuen treaty had justly been considered as
the commercial idol of England. There were extravagant
rumours out of doors, if they were to listen to all the extrava
gant rumours circulated concerning the Portugal trade —- that
it had fallen off, and that it was no longer to be viewed in the
same light as formerly. But to these rumours he could give no
ear ; and the House ought certainly to know the precise state of
the trade. They were, on the contrary, called upon to act in
the dark. The question, as far as the relation of Portugal to
England went, bore three faces — They were, .first, to con
sider the French treaty either under the idea that the duties
on Portugal wines were to be lowered ; or, second, that the
Methuen treaty was to be sacrificed ; or, third, that there was
a negotiation pending. In which of these faces was he to
consider the Portugal trade while discussing the French
treaty ? It surely ought to be clearly and fully explained
to the House, before they were called upon to come to this
decision. Another circumstance most forcibly demanded considera
tion. A convention had been exchanged, and at length ra
tified — and this convention was so little of a piece with the
treaty, nay, was in some respects so totally dissimilar, that one
might have conceived it as possible to decide on the merits of
the Irish propositions in their last shape, from having read
those which the right honourable gentleman first brought in,
as to form a clear and conclusive* judgment of the convention
from having read the treaty. The convention which gentle
men had only received that day, contained adjustments of
duties, and an arrangement of different articles of hardware,
which were all so huddled together in the treaty, that the most
enlightened of the manufacturers and traders would be puzzled
to decide at once on its precise merits. A fortnight only was
desired. Surely the right honourable gentleman could not be
serious in objecting to a period so short. What did he fear,
or what could he possibly have to fear from the delay ? He
had insinuated that the great body of the people were anxious
for the completion of the treaty. If the majority of the
people were for the treaty, surely he had nothing to appre
hend from delay. If their approbation of it was well-founded,
deliberation would only fix them in their opinions more
thoroughly ; but if he suspected that they were loud in their
praise more from the novelty of the object than from their
conviction of its merits ; that they had, like himself, taken it
up hastily, and attracted by the glitter of a French connec-

1787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 267
tion, or tempted by the view of immediate profit, had not
taken time to sit down and thoroughly weigh the merits of
the case ; then, indeed, the conduct of the right honourable
gentleman as a temporiser might be right. He snatched at
the seasonable moment to catch the transitory breath of their
praise ; and seized on their delusion to betray them into his
toil. But he could not think so poorly of the right honour
able gentleman. He surely could not be content with a
triumph so obtained. A triumph of this kind he might have
had, in the fullest measure of national delirium, if he had
pushed the nation to a question on the treaty eight days after
its publication. There were a sort of people to whom, in
every instance, novelty was attraction. If a measure had the
merit of being new and glittering, they were soothed by its ap
pearance, and for a time became subject to its fascination,
But this was a sort of magic easily broken. It endured no
longer than the novelty itself, and a rational estimate pro
ceeding from cool inquiry followed the momentary intoxica
tion of the senses. Surely the right honourable gentleman
could find no true enjoyment in any other than the triumph
which should proceed from the concurring voice of the coun
try, seriously and deliberately pronounced in" favour of the
treaty which he had negociated. He must revolt from a tri
umph obtained over delusion and error. And while he thus
earnestly requested time, he must again recall the memorable
circumstance of the Irish propositions. What was the case
there ? When the right honourable gentleman was intreated
to allow time for inquiry, and for collecting the sense of the
people, he triumphantly pointed to the table, and inquired
what petitions there were on it. What was the conse
quence of this ? The manufacturing bodies in every part of-
the country, gave the right honourable gentleman petitions
in sufficient number — they gave him the most convincing
proof, not only that he was opposed by the whole body of the
people, but that he was wrong in every article of his scheme.
From these gentlemen the House had also gained a complete
treatise on manufacture and commerce — a treatise which,
though given in the case of the Irish treaty, was equally ap
plicable to the French treaty, and would for ever be referred
to and respected in every case of commercial discussion.
He should now beg leave to caution the House against
entering rashly into the first discussion, because their first
opinion delivered on the treaty was so material. It was not
with this as with the Irish treaty — they had no parliament, jea
lous of the constitution, like themselves, to revise what they
might do. He had been said to have delivered very free
opinions about French perfidy, and perhaps he might not

268 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. O.
think that nation the most faithful in their political contracts
of any people in Europe ; but he never had said that they
were so treacherous — that they were so unobservant of their
public faith, — that if the British parliament were to in
sert some small passage into the treaty different from the
present letter of it, they would reject the whole. The Irish
did this : a clause inserted at the conclusion of the inquiry had
the good luck to arouse the jealousy of the parliament of Ire
land, and they, much to the satisfaction of every thinking
man, rejected the whole scheme; but, in this instance, we
had no such good fortune to expect, and therefore parliament
should be more cautious how they suffered a thing to pass,
which, once out of their hands, was not likely to meet its
doom elsewhere. Such sentiments as he had now expressed,
would, he was convinced, entirely bear him out in voting for
the amendment; and the more particularly, as the consequence
of its passing would be a full House, and its natural result, a
close investigation of a subject, than which few, if any, were
superior in importance.
The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived by
213 against 89. The motion for a call of the House was after
wards put, and rejected without a division.

February o.
Mr. Fox observed, that it gave him pleasure to assure the
House, that he should trespass but a short time upon their
patience, as the documents for which he meant to move,
went merely to the situation of our present, and the probable
State of our future trade with Portugal ; which though an
object essentially necessary to be known in that House, pre
vious to their coming to any decision upon the Commercial
Treaty with France, yet, as far as it opened a field for ar
gument, could only be considered in one of these two points of
view, viz. whether before we had entered into a commercial
treaty with a new customer, We had taken care to secure our
connection with an old and valuable one; or in case of not
having done so, whether having made a treaty with France
we were likely to keep our connection with Portugal, our old
customer, if the treaty was to be commercially considered ;
our old ally, if the treaty was to be considered politically ; or
solely trusted to putting ourselves exclusively into the hands of
France, both as a customer, and — not an ally, for that she
certainly could not be called, but as a new pohtical friend.
These were the heads under which every argument upon
the subject must range; and the better to make himself under-

1787-] TREATY OP COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 26f)
stood by the House, he would point out the three periods of
time, at which the treaty with Portugal could alone have been
made, but at each of which periods undoubtedly, there was a
material difference in point of ease and advantage. The first
of these periods was, that of all others, most desirable, because
it must have been free from every imputation, either on the
score of impolicy or suspicion of any kind whatever; the last
of the three periods was certainly open to a proportion of sus
picion, but he really thought, that though some suspicion might
at first attach to it, in a very short time that might be done
away : but there was between these two periods, an intermediate
period of a very doubtful and suspicious nature indeed, and that
of all others was the most objectionable. The period most
advantageous of the three, obviously was, that prior to the
conclusion of a treaty with France. Had a treaty with Por
tugal been secured and settled at that moment, it would have
manifested a fairness and a decency on our part to an old ally ;
and it would have exhibited a good example of the dignity of
this country, by shewing, that before we enter into new trea
ties, or sought for new friends, we took care to secure the
continuance of our old connections. At that time, therefore,
in his mind, the treaty with the court of Lisbon ought to have
been adjusted, because he never could be brought to admit,
that our commercial connection with Portugal ought to be
blended with, or make any part of the measure of a com
mercial treaty with France, though the converse of the pro
position might we true, and indeed was so.
The next best period for making a treaty with the court of
Lisbon, was subsequent to the parliamentary sanction and
finally carrying into effect the commercial treaty with France,
and after the reduction of Portugal wines, according to the
reserve made in the 7 th article of the French treaty. That
period, as he had before said, was certainly not so free from
objection as the former one, but most objectionable was the
intermediate period, namely, that between the signing the
French treaty, and the parliament of Great Britain giving it
their sanction, and engaging to carry it into execution. In
order to illustrate this assertion, and explain more fully what
he meant, Mr. Fox went into a good deal of argument to
prove, that if Portugal should, through any perverseness, or
ill-judged obstinacy (which Heaven forbid should be the
case!) refuse to continue the same connection with us that had
subsisted between the two countries under the Methuen treaty,
ever since the year 1703, France would, in that case, derive
a great additional advantage from us, for which we neither
should have an equivalent, nor could claim one.

270 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. O.
He knew that some doubts had arisen as to the right
construction of the Methuen treaty: a minister when in
office, he had felt it to be his duty to negociate it one way,
but be was aware that the court of Lisbon had contended
that Irish woollens were not comprehended under the Me
thuen treaty  [The chancellor of the exchequer said across
the table, if the right honourable gentleman acted one way
as a negociator when in office, he hoped he would not lend
the weight of his authority the other way, now he was not
in office.] Mr. Fox said, if the right honourable gentleman
had heard him to the end of his sentence, he was sure he
would not have thought what he meant to have expressed,
to have been wrong, or injudicious, or ill-timed. What he
was proceeding to say was this, that the court of Lisbon
had contended that Irish woollens were not comprehended
within the meaning of the Methuen treaty ; but that was an
idle and a mistaken notion. The spirit of the Methuen
treaty undoubtedly went to Irish as well as British woollens,
and to lay down any distinction between the two was nar
row and impolitic, and by no means consonant with that
generous and liberal line of conduct that the court of Lisbon
and the court of London should mutually take care to follow
respecting the concerns of each other. His opinion was,
and that an opinion founded on conviction, that Portugal
was bound to listen to the complaints of our merchants, and
that it was the duty of ministers to take care to enforce their
just demands, so as to have the Methuen treaty observed
as to its spirit, rather than as to its mere letter. On our
part we ought to act with equal liberality, and rather grant
to Portugal more than she could claim by treaty than less.
Upon that principle the two countries might continue con
nected and be useful friends to each other. If Portugal
should, either by the influence of other powers, or the per-
verseness of her own ministers, break with us entirely, and
an end should be put to the Methuen treaty, we should lose
a useful friend, and should undoubtedly feel the loss; but
Portugal would soon find, that she had acted rashly and
injudiciously, that she had injured herself most essentially
by breaking her old connection, and that no new commer
cial treaty she could enter into or conclude, could possibly
prove in every point of view so serviceable and so advan
tageous to her, as her connection with this country had
proved. In that light, he had uniformly considered the
Methuen treaty and the connection between Great Britain
and Portugal, and so, he believed, every man who knew
any thing of the commercial interests of the two countries
must have considered them.

I787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 27 1
Mr. Fox next proceeded to shew the disadvantages of put
ting the finishing hand to the French treaty, by parliament
coming to a vote upon it, before they knew what would be
the state of our trade with Portugal. The principles of the
French treaty were reciprocity of advantage in respect to com
merce; not that each country was to do the same thing exactly
in respect to each commercial commodity, because that would
be impossible, but where the duty was lowered upon any
commodity in one country, an equivalent was to be granted
by the other. But if the treaty with France was sanctioned
without knowing what was to be done with Portugal, we
must remain in the dark, and might eventually give France
an advantage for which we neither had the prospect of an
equivalent, nor could set up any claim to one. Mr. Fox
explained this, by putting the case, that Portugal should,
either through her own perverseness, or the influence France
was known to have over the court of Lisbon, be so unwise
as to refuse to come into any treaty with Great Britain;
in that case, we certainly should not lower the duty on
Portugal wines, and then France would positively have a
material advantage, in addition to the advantage already given
by stipulation in the treaty, for which additional advantage,
we should not have a right to claim an equivalent. Thus
France would be in the condition of a person purchasing
an estate, with a mine upon it, without having paid for the
mine. Would not every man, in that case, blame the seller
of the estate, for not having ascertained, whether there was
a mine upon it or not, before he sold his estate ? The case
stood exactly in that manner between Great Britain and
France: if Portugal broke with us, France would have all.
the benefit without having stipulated to give any equivalent
to this country. Mr. Fox put this very forcibly, and then
mentioned, as another probable inconvenience, that if we
should lower the duty on Spanish wines, France would have
a right to call upon us to make the same reduction in the
duties on the French wines, because we had stipulated that.
her wines should come in upon as low duties, as were paid
on the wines of any country, except the wines of Portugal.
The validity of this argument would be seen by reading the
sixth, the seventh, and eleventh articles of the French treaty.
Mr. Fox recapitulated the heads of his argument before
he sat down, and then said, that if the object he aimed at,
which he hoped he had made sufficiently clear to the right:
honourable gentleman, could be obtained by any other mo-.
tion, or by any other way of wording his motion, he was
ready to give it up, or alter it, though he could not give up
his argument, as he conceived nothing could be more evident'

272 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12.
than the grounds he had rested it upon. Mr. Fox explained
why he had selected the year 1782 as the date, from which
the papers were to be made out. He said, he would not
go so far back as the year 1758, when the merchants began
to complain of the conduct of the court of Portugal as to the
non-observance of the Methuen treaty, but fixed upon the
year 1782, as more modern, at the same time that it was
not so modern, as to be a period that interfered with nego
tiations of a nature too recent to be touched upon. He con
cluded with moving, " That an humble Address be presented.
to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give
directions, that there be laid before this House, copies or
extracts of the Instructions that have been given to his ma
jesty's ministers in Portugal since the first of May 1782,
respecting the Complaints of the British merchants. As also
the answer or answers of the Court of Portugal to the re
presentations which have been made in consequence of such
instructions, with the several dates of the said instructions
and answers."
The motion, after being seconded by Sir Grey Cooper, and
opposed by Mr. Beaufoy and Mr. Pitt, was negatived without a
division.

February 12.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole
House, to take into consideration so much of the king's speech on
the 25th of January, as relates to the treaty of navigation and com
merce with France, Mr. Pitt in a speech which lasted three hours,
entered into an explanation and defence of the treaty, and con
cluded with moving his first resolution ; viz. " That it appears
to this committee to be expedient that all articles of the growth,
produce, or manufacture of the European dominions of the French
king, which are not specified in the 6th article of the treaty of
navigation and commerce, between His Britannic Majesty and the
Most Christian King, signed at Versailles, the 26th of September
1786, shall be imported into this kingdom on payment of duties
as low as any which shall be payable on the importation of the like
articles from any other European nation."
Mr. Fox rose immediately as the chancellor of the exche
quer sat down. He began by declaring, that he clearly saw
that the right honourable gentleman had considered a great
and complicated subject on narrow and confined ground.
When he was in office he had begun the only system on
which commerce between the two countries could have been
carried on, without disgrace and embarrassment to Great

I787O TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 273
Britain. To the greatest part of what had fallen from the
right honourable gentleman with so much eloquence and
ability, he was prepared to give a direct and immediate ne
gative; and he at the same time scrupled not to assert, that
no one argument the right honourable gentleman had urged
in favour of the treaty carried conviction to his mind, or
altered his opinion of it in the smallest degree. The right
honourable gentleman had done what he expected, because
it was what every person must have done, who undertook
the defence of a commercial treaty with France — he had
talked a great deal of the assurances given by the court of
Versailles of her amicable intentions towards Great Britain,
and on these assurances of friendship had he rested his con
fidence, that France was sincere in her professions, and that
she really wished well to this country. In that confidence he
never could join ; nor could he ever be brought to believe
that France was sincere when she professed to be the friend
of Great Britain.
The right honourable gentleman had said, " Surely no man
would go so far as to assert, that France must be actuated by
an unalterable enmity towards us, and that it absolutely was
impossible that the two countries could ever be brought to act
towards each other with amity and friendship." He un
doubtedly, Mr. Fox said, would not go the length of assert
ing that France was, and must remain the unalterable enemy
of Great Britain, and that there was not a possibility for any
circumstances to occur, under which France might not se- <
cretly feel a wish to act amicably with respect to this kingdom, j
It was possible ; but it was scarcely probable. That she, how
ever, felt in that manner at present, he not only doubted but
disbelieved. France was the natural political enemy of Great
Britain. What made her so ? — not the memory of Cressy
and of Agincourt ; the victories of those fields had nothing to
do with the circumstance. It was the overweening pride and
boundless ambition of France ; her invariable and ardent de
sire to hold the sway of Europe. If the right honourable
gentleman thought the friendly assurances of France were in
fallible proofs of her sincerity, let him but turn over the cor
respondence to be found in the secretary of state's office that
related to what had passed between the British ambassador
and the French ministers at the time that Lord Stormont
had been our ambassador, and immediately before the deli
very of the French rescript, previous to their breaking with
us, and joining America against this country, and he would
there see assurances of sincere regard, and professions of firm
friendship as warm as could be made. How far those as-
VOL. III. T

274 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12.
surances had been verified, and how far those professions
had been fulfilled, the House and the country but too well
knew! Mr. Fox said, that one reason to distrust France was, the
amiable character of the French king, a monarch celebrated
for his love of justice, for his desire to serve his country, and
his wish to aggrandize her name. , That monarch sat on the
throne when France last went to war with us, and the minister
of that day was M. Maurepas, a man of known talents, but
a man of that time of life not likely to be led away by impro
bable speculations on visionary projects more flattering than
solid. Assurances of friendship, therefore, on the part of the
court of Versailles were not to be relied on, especially at this
moment, when France was so powerful, and had so little rea
son to part with any thing, really meant for the good of this
Country. Mr. Fox contended that France was the natural foe of
Great Britain, and that she wished by entering into a com
mercial treaty with us to tie our hands, and prevent us from
engaging in any alliances with other powers. He answered
that part of Mr. Pitt's speech in which he had said, that at
one time France and Great Britain were friends, and had
carried on a commercial intercourse with each other. The
reason he said was, this country had at that time another na
tural enemy, and that was Spain. He elucidated this, by
referring to the history of Europe, and stated that from the
reign of Henry VI. after those wars were over, that this coun
try had derived so much glory from, France and Great Bri
tain did for a long time continue upon an amicable footing
with each other.
The right honourable gentleman, he observed, had dwelt a
good deal on the benefit that individuals would reap from
the treaty being carried -into execution. That was, Mr. Fox
said, one good reason with him for disliking it. Connections
of such great political importance ought riot to rest on the
advantage that would accrue from them to interested indivi
duals, but on the good effect they were likely to produce to
the public and to the state. In the reign of Charles the Se
cond, we had a connection with France; why; — for the
good of an individual, —because of the corruption of the
crowned head. Oliver Cromwell, it was true, notwithstanding
his wisdom and the vigour of his measures, was also in con
nection with France; the only reason that could be assigned,
was probably for the sake of the safety of his own personal
situation, having to dread that France might lend her aid to
the family of the abdicated prince and assist in restoring them
to their legal rights: that consideration might operate and

I787O TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 275
induce him to prefer his own interest and the preservation of
his power to the glory of the countiy, over which he, in
almost every other respect, ruled with so much credit to him
self. Charles the Second, from the moment he came to the
throne, began to put schemes in execution for the ruin of
the religion of his people, and almost every thing that it was
his duty to maintain and uphold.
In King William's time, a more glorious conduct was pur
sued, and also in the subsequent reign, until the people were
led away with false notions of their interests, and were not
only persuaded, that the victories and triumphs of the wars
they had carried on so successfully against France, had been
purchased at too dear a price of blood and of treasure to this
country, but that those who had planned those wars in the
cabinet, and conducted them in the field, deserved execration
and punishment. At that era it was, that the tories got the
government into their hands, and under the influence of idle
rumours of the church being in danger, and the most incre
dible reports, prevailed on the tory parliament to pass censures
on men, whose characters were afterwards proved not to have
deserved the smallest imputation of blame. Even the Duke
of Marlborough himself, who had fought the battles of his
country with so much glory to the .British name and charac
ter, and so much signal honour to himself, did not escape
without slur, and without abuse. At that era it was, that the
"treaty of Utrecht was thought of and negociated ; a treaty
that deservedly met with the execration of all ranks of people !
Even that parliament, — a parliament that had proved so
servile, that it had disgraced itself in a variety of instances,
would not consent to swallow the infamous treaty of Utretcht,
but rejected it. They thereby proved, that though they were
a tory, they were not a French parliament; but although
they did reject the 8th and 9th articles of the treaty of Utrecht,
they were so adulatory to the then tory ministry, that if they
could not bring themselves to approve their works, they never
theless praised their persons, and sent up an address to the
queen, flattering to the administration, though it condemned
their treaty.
Mr. Fox drew a parallel between their conduct and the
treatment the right honourable gentleman had himself expe
rienced ever since he had been in power. The right honour
able gentleman had talked of the Irish propositions, and, as
it were, invited their being mentioned. But would not the
fate of those propositions sufficiently prove, that although the1
measure failed, yet the right honourable gentleman, high in
favour with his sovereign, and with the people, lost not an
atom of the confidence of either ? The House might recol-
t 2

276 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12^
lect, that when the Irish propositions came ultimately to be
voted in that House, many gentlemen of great character and
esteem in the country, expressly declared, that the measure
was too complex for them to comprehend, but that they were
ready to vote for it, from the confidence they had in the right
honourable gentleman's integrity, and in his having declared
that it was a right measure.
The right honourable gentleman, Mr. Fox observed, had
laid great stress on the assertion, that no petitions had been
presented against the treaty ; the same degree of stress exactly
had he laid on the same circumstance, in the case of the Irish
propositions, and yet they all recollected how the boast of the
right honourable gentleman had turned out. But in the pre
sent case, there was a petition from the chamber of commerce,
signed by some of the most respectable names to be found
among the manufacturers of the country. Mr. Fox justified
Messrs. Walker, and the house of Mills and Haywood, for
their conduct, and said, if such men declared they did not
' rightly understand the treaty it behoved the committee to
proceed cautiously, and not to lose all sight of their being a
deliberative assembly. He asked, did the right honourable
gentleman himself, or any other gentleman take upon him to
assert, that he understood the interests of the cotton manu
facture better than Mr. Walker, or the interests of the woollen
manufacture better than the house of Mills and Haywood ?
He replied to the several observations that had been made by
Mr. Pitt on the report from the chamber of commerce, and
defended every part of that report, declaring the questions
put in the report were pertinent and pointed, notwithstand-
standing the right honourable gentleman had thought proper
to treat them with so much levity, and to declare that he
should be very much ashamed if any gentleman thought what
he was about to read, was really a part of his speech. With
respect to the doubts entertained by the chamber of commerce,
as to the construction of the fifth article ; he was very free to
say, that those doubts appeared to him to be ill-founded, and
to agree with the right honourable gentleman, that if there
were any laws existing, by which aliens and foreigners were
debarred from exercising a retail trade in this country, they
were a disgrace to the statute book, and ought to be done
away. After dwelling for some time upon this matter, and justify
ing the report and the question proposed in it for enquiry,
Mr. Fox returned to his first argument, that France was not
to be trusted, and that she insidiously meant to draw this
country into her scale of the balance of power, wliich could
not but make it preponderate. He observed, that the right

I787O TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 277
honourable gentleman had talked of the facility, the ease, and
accommodation manifested by France all through the nego
ciation ; a circumstance at which, Mr. Fox said, he was not
surprized, because upon a perusal of the treaty it was evident,
that France had her own great end in view, and not the good
of Great Britain. In order to explain this, Mr. Fox re
marked, that notwithstanding the levity of French manners,
notwithstanding the constitutional mutability of that people,
yet, to the astonishment of all the world, during all their
changes of administration, they had for more than a century
kept to one regular and constant idea, that of overweening
pride and natural aggrandizement. Anxious to grasp at
more than a due influence over the other powers of Europe,
France had endeavoured by different means, to attain her ob
ject. In the reign of Louis the Fourteenth, she had openly
avowed her purpose, and endeavoured to effect it: but find
ing that arrogant conduct offensive to all the other powers of
Europe, and that it created against her an host of foes, she
had lately changed her means and determined to do that by
the more laudable mode of commercial connection, which she
saw she would not be suffered to accomplish by force of arms.
Hence her facility to treat with this country, because she
knew she would have an opportunity of taking an advantage ;
an advantage which she had not permitted to escape her.
When the family-compact Was entered into, Mr. Fox said, it
gave great offence to the European powers; and when we
negotiated the peace of Paris in 1763, being at that time the
successful combatants, and granting relief from the fatigue
and expence of a disastrous war, to an almost exhausted' foe,
we got France, then humbled as she was, tacitly to abjure
the family-compact, as would be seen by referring to the first
article of that treaty. In our last treaty of peace, the treaty
signed at Paris in 1783, the French adhered to their abjura
tion, but as we did not deem that sufficiently satisfactory, the
Duke of Manchester was sent over, who obtained a declara
tion which expressly answered the purpose. Notwithstand
ing these precautions, France had been artful enough to revive
the family-compact in the present commercial treaty, and had
thereby obtained a recognition of it on the part of this coun
try. Mr. Fox, to prove this position, read the 25th article
of the family-compact, and the different articles from the
treaties of 1763 and of 1783, and was extremely pointed on
the circumstances which he said was an admirable proof of
the sincerity of the assurances of France, and her professions
of friendship towards Great Britain, and accounted very suf
ficiently for the ease and facility which she had manifested in
the course of the negociation.
t 3

278 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12.
He enlarged upon the argument, that this country ought
not by any means, in point of policy, to connect herself too
closely with France. Her true situation was that, he said, of
a great maritime power looked up to by the other powers of
Europe, as that to which the distressed should fly for assist
ance, whenever France unjustly attacked them with a view to
the attainment of her favourite object. Two things it be
hoved a wise ministry of this country to aim at, with respect
to France, the one was to divert her attention from her ma
rine, and turn it to land connections and fortifications ; the
other, to procure an alliance for Great Britain with some
maritime power that could assist her whenever France thought
it a fit moment to attack her. Both these ends, if they
could be answered, were extremely desirable; but if both
could not, it was the duty of ministers to endeavour to gain
one of them. Mr. Fox declared, he had lately heard, and
with much true joy, that the probability of our once more
recovering our situation with Holland, was not quite so hope
less as it had been. He was sincerely glad of it, for the pre
sent treaty did not appear to him likely to invite other powers
to enter into alliance with us. He went over the whole of
the arguments used on Friday last, relative to the Methuen
treaty with Portugal, throwing new lights upon it, and de
claring that our connection with the court of Lisbon had
been made a sacrifice and peace-offering to France, and had
been clearly given as the price of the treaty. He said, that
the French in the much boasted reserve, contained in the
seventh article of the commercial treaty, had completely
outwitted us. He explained this, by reminding the committee,
that the reserve, as to Portugal, was the reserve of a right
actually existing when the Treaty was negotiated ; whereas
the reserve on the part of France, viz. that of an article
in the family compact, was not admitted by us to have an
existence. After very fully going over the ground of the policy of the
treaty, he touched upon the commercial and the revenue divi
sions, contending that the honourable gentleman had been
mistaken in almost every one of his arguments respecting both
those heads. Much, he said, would it become the House se
riously to contemplate the effect which this treaty might have
on the revenues of the country. What were the advantages
that rninistry could possibly expect from it ? With regard to
the prevention of smuggling, he did not conceive how the ar
guments used by the right honourable gentleman would apply.
He had said, with respect to the brandies, that what were for
merly smuggled into this country" would now come under the
legal dutyT, and thus would the revenue receive all the advan-

t7870 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 279
tages of which it was formerly defrauded. But how did this
fact really stand? The duties on brandies made their impor
tation to the merchant 7s. 6d. per gallon : this was 400 per
cent. Would the right honourable gentleman therefore pre
tend to say, that when the duties on brandies were 400 per cent.
on the first cost, that they would not be now smuggled in as
great a proportion as they were formerly ? They certainly
would ; for where there was such a temptation, there would
smuggling always exist. But, to prevent this smuggling of
brandy, the right honourable gentleman had declared that he
had a plan to propose to effectuate it entirely. What was
this plan? Did he mean to reduce the duties to 100/. per cent?
Would he lower the duties to 35. 4^. per gallon? And if he
did, what assurance could he give that they would not then
smuggle brandies into- this country? But if he reduced the
duties on brandies, the duties on rum must be reduced in pro
portion, otherwise the consumption of our colonial produce
in the West Indies would be materially diminished. He was
therefore assured that he could not, with any consistency of
policy* or expediency, lower the duties beneath their present
standard. If he did, he would risk the diminution of the re
venue in one instance, and the diminution of our West India
produce in the other. Therefore he could not conceive in
what particular smuggling would be diminished with regard
to the exportation of brandies, under the stipulations of the
present treaty.
As to the commercial part of the treaty, the first object that
claimed his attention was the woollen manufactory. It had
been argued, that we had opened to ourselves a market, con
taining twenty-four millions of people, while France had only
obtained a market from us of eight millions. But with res
pect to the> number of persons in a market, he did not esti
mate the advantages to be derived on such a scale of compu
tation. The advantages were to be estimated from the con-
sumpticn of the national produce. The raw material, if grown
in the country, and then manufactured, was certainly the es
timate of the profit of one nation with another in a commer
cial intercourse. Now, how stood the situation of this country
with regard to our woollen manufactures ? As far as the wool
len articles we might export to France, by virtue of this treaty,
were composed of English wool, we should clearly have be
nefit. But as we used at least 350,000 lb. of Spanish wool in
our manufactories of woollen cloths, we clearly lost this ad
vantage of the raw material. And this was not all ; for this
350,000 lb. when manufactured into cloth, was estimated, by
those most conversant in the trade, to amount to no less a sum
than 700,000/. Thus, such a value would be clearly to our

280 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12.
disadvantage. And what yet more increased our loss was,
that Spain might give France an opportunity of importing
their wool under the sanction of the treaty, which restored
both to France and Spain the privileges of the family-compact.
By this France would be able to manufacture this article, and
afterwards serve us with the commodity which we before made
ourselves. And as it was a species of cloth which our wool
would not make, we should be obliged to purchase it from
France, under the disadvantage of their having the labour,
and we the loss of the artificers ; they the emolument, and we
the loss of the manufacture.
Thus, having shewn in what manner the advantages of reci
procity were to be estimated in this treaty, he proceeded to se
veral other articles. Among these was the importation of bran
dies into this country. He had before manifested, that in no
possible manner could this treaty diminish the smuggling of
this article into the country. And now he meant to evince,
that the revenue could not possibly be benefited under the idea
of a greater quantity of brandy being imported into the coun
try. 600,000 gallons were the estimate . of the brandies im
ported here. But of this quantity, only 160,000 gallons
was the quantity imported annually from France. It was,
therefore, evident that the rest must be chiefly imported from
Spain, or some other countries on that part of the continent.
Consequently, lowering the duties of what were imported from
France could not increase the revenue ; for, as what was im
ported from thence was evidently so disproportionate to what
we imported from Spain and other countries, no increase of
consumption in French brandies could possibly be expected.
Unless the constitutions of the people could be altered, he be
lieved a greater quantity could not be consumed than what
was at present. He, therefore, could not conceive any advan
tages of revenue, or indeed commerce, to be derived from
lowering the duties on this article. He then proceeded to the
cotton manufactory. This, he said, was chiefly supported by
the working of a raw material, of which no less a quantity than
seventeen million of pounds of cotton wool was used. But of
this quantity half was imported from France, Portugal, and
the Brazils. Was not this an alarming circumstance to a
manufacture of such consequence as the cotton, fustain, and
velvet was to this country ? By this treaty, France herself
might withhold two millions of the quantity we used, and keep
it for her own rising manufactures. And if we were deprived
of this raw material, one of our greatest manufactures would
be destroyed, or at least transplanted to France. What Was
there in the treaty to compensate for such an essential loss to
the commerce of the kingdom ? He knew of none. Much had

lI787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 28 1
been said with regard to its reciprocity, but with all his ex
amination of it he could not find one article in which any trace
of that reciprocity existed.
Proceeding thus through several articles of our commerce,
he adverted to our situation with Portugal with respect to the
present treaty. As to the idea of our renewing or preserving
the Methuen treaty, he had not the least expectation. We
had not preserved to ourselves the only chance which could
give us any pretence to ask it with confidence. Portugal
knew that we had formed a treaty which precluded us from
every possibility of making any advantage of any proposal we
might offer, and she might think proper to reject. She would,
therefore, not be inclined to give us a benefit for a bonus we
had it not in our power to bestow ; for notwithstanding we
had a reserve to reduce her wines one third below those of
France, yet as we had no means of giving, or rather selling, this
advantage to any other, should she refuse it, she could have no
reason to accept a proposition tending so much to her disad
vantage. What gave a pretence for a treaty was, to have it
in your power to offer to one, what, if rejected, you might,
with advantage, offer to another. But this you could not ex
pect in the present instance of Portugal wines, and therefore,
he did not perceive on what species of confidence we could
expect the Methuen treaty to be continued. What was to
compensate for the advantage which we lost? 150,000/. of
salt fish we annually sent to that country. Where could \ve
find a market for this invaluable article of our commerce ? If
any where, we should expect to have it in France. For as
we lost a benefit in consequence of giving them an 'advantage,
we certainly had a right to expect from them a compensation.
But could we expect this ? No ! They had a fishery of their
own. They, therefore, would not take ours. Where, then,
would the right honourable gentleman find the reciprocity in
this particular ? None could be found. It was consequently
evident, that here a most material sacrifice was offered to the
pretences of France. We lost not only this sale of our pro
duce, as it might be called, but we lost this opportunity of
reaping those advantages from our fisheries, which rendered
them the nurseries of our seamen.
The right honourable gentleman had made some extraor
dinary observations concerning the importation of wines into
this country, in consequence of the treaty. He did not con
ceive that any particular advantage could ever be derived from
this concession — if it might be so called. Wines were cer
tainly a luxury, and a most agreeable species of luxury, with
which we could not dispense. But surely, their importation

282 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 12.
on one third less duty than before would not prove the least
advantageous to the country from any pretended equivalent
that might be offered us. With respect to the equivalent
which we were to have for the reduction of the duties on
French wines, so as to admit them more freely into our ports,
what article had we the privilege of exporting into France ?
He knew of none. It appeared to him, therefore, an advan
tage given to France without the least sign of an equivalent.
We were admitting French wines into our ports to the exclu
sion of those of Portugal, reducing our duties on both, and
forfeiting all those advantages which we formerly enjoyed by
the Methuen treaty. Such was the policy and principle of
the leading feature of this treaty !
The right honourable gentleman had used arguments not
less extraordinary in favour of establishing peace between this
country and France. He had asked in his zeal and sangui
nary wishes for the event, were not the two countries nearly
situated, were they not nearly connected in their mutual inter
course, were they not pursuing the same means of encreasing
their prosperity, and was not this the only means of uniting a
people in the bonds of peace, amity, and prosperity ? Such
arguments might be used with regard to Spain and Portugal.
Portugal might say, Am I not nearly adjoining to Spain ? Do
we not speak almost the same language ? Are we not of the
same religion ? Are we not similar in manners ? And should
I not rather seek alliance and protection from a neighbour so
near me, and so competent to afford protection from insulting
and invading neighbours ? These questions were certainly as
applicable to Spain and Portugal, as they were to France and
England. And yet the answer which would naturally be
given to Portugal as well as to Great Britain, was, that vi
cinity of situation, instead of being the means to connect, was
what should excite our fear and jealousy. Portugal being so
near to such a superior power as Spain, was certainly in dan
ger from her ambition. It was, therefore, that she rather sought
foreign connections and alliances, than union with a country
to which she might be sacrificed, had she not such a friend as
Great Britain to call to her assistance. This was the reason
why Portugal could not enter into any treaty with Spain with
safety, any more than Great Britain could possibly enter into
a commercial treaty with France. Both transactions were
equally dangerous to us and Portugal ; for our relative situa
tions were such, as to render this policy extremely hazardous,
not only to the prosperity, but to the existence of each country
as a nation. As to the stipulation of reducing Portugal wines
one third below the French wines, while the eleventh article
12

I787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 283
of the treaty subsisted, he could not conceive that this could
have the least effect in preserving the Methuen treaty unbro
ken. For by the eleventh article it was agreed, that all com
modities imported from either nation into the other should be
on terms of the most favoured nations, Portugal excepted.
Thus, if we reduced the Spanish wines, we should be obliged
also, by the French treaty, to reduce to the same degree the
French wines, unless they were already as low as the duties on
Portugal wines. Thus should we be obliged to reduce the
duties on both the French and Portugal wines, to the great
diminution of our revenue, without the least probability of an
equivalent. Mr. Fox maintained, that the treaty was a tempt
ing bait, which none but gudgeons the most simple would
have bitten at ; and concluded a most able speech with moving,
That the chairman do leave the chair, report progress, and
ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Francis followed Mr. Fox, and concurred in opinion with
him upon the mischievous political tendency of the measure under
their consideration. He went even farther : he dreaded the effects
of an intimate political connection with France upon the character
of the British nation. The first step towards enslaving a free peo
ple was to endeavour to corrupt them ; and he was convinced that
a freer intercourse with France would produce that effect. There
were other reflections, he said, which belonged to the subject,
too obvious to require explanation, and too delicate to be expres
sed. There might be too strict an union between the two crowns
through the medium of an union between the two nations ; and that
union might be fatal to the liberty of Great Britain. He remind
ed Mr. Pitt of the opposite opinions of the late Lord Chatham,
and lamented that the pomp of modern eloquence should be em
ployed to derogate from the merits of his administration. The po
lemical laurels of the father must yield, he said, to the pacific myr
tles which shadow the forehead of the son. The first and most
prominent feature in the political character of Lord Chatham was
antigallican. His glory was founded on the resistance he made to
the united power of the house of Bourbon. The present minister
had taken the opposite road to fame ; and France, the object of
every hostile principle in the policy of Lord Chatham, was the gens
amicissima of the son. — Mr. Powys was of opinion that the treaty
was not safe in its policy, and that it put the commercial interests
of this country unnecessarily to hazard. — Mr. Baring, the member
for Exeter, and himself a person of great commercial dealings,
thought the treaty, as far as his consideration of it had gone, had
both its advantages and disadvantages ; but upon the whole, com
mercially considered, his opinion went in its favour. — The treaty
was defended by Mr. W. Grenville upon the ground occupied by
Mr. Pitt ; and the question being at length called for, Mr. Fox's
amendment was negatived ; and the resolution moved agreed to by
a majority of 248 to 1 18.

284 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 1 5:.

February 15.
The House having again resolved itself into a committee, Mr.,
Pitt read, without any preface, his second resolution : " That it ap
pears to this committee, that wines, of the produce of the European
dominions of the French king, imported directly into this kingdom,
shall in no case pay higher duties than the wines of Portugal now
pay." Mr. Flood in a long and eloquent speech condemned the
terms of the peace. Mr. Wilberforce rose in answer to Mr. Flood.
He said, that the right honourable member's speech abounded with
false reasoning, and unwarrantable conclusions. He had asserted
that the manufacturers disliked the treaty : of his own knowledge
he could take upon him to assert the reverse was the fact. He
had seen a great number of the manufacturers of different descrip
tions, he had conversed with them upon the subject, and they all
highly approved of the treaty. He next addressed himself to
Mr. Fox, and said, he heartily wished he would come down to that
House coolly and dispassionately : that he would sometimes forget
that he was a politician, and consider matters under discussion
with a greater degree of attention to their particular merits. He
asked, to what end it was to tell a poor cottager, groaning under
a load of taxes, and sitting with scarcely a snuff of candle to light
him, while he was poring over a newspaper, containing a violent
speech of the right honourable gentleman, so put together that the
sense of it could scarcely be made out, that he was a balancer of
the power of Europe, and a protector of its liberties ? Was that a
proper language to be told to such a man ? Was it likely to stimu
late him to better exertions or industry ? He declared he had been
run away with frequently by the oratory of the right honourable
gentleman, and obliged to appeal to his reason and his principles to
prevent being declaimed out of his understanding.
Mr. Fox rose to condemn the low and desponding argu
ments made use of by Mr. Wilberforce. That honourable
gentleman had stated, in the meekness of his nature, that he
dreamt not of power, nor did he wish to tread the paths of
ambition; but immediately afterwards, he had a vision, which
told him, that the navy of Great Britain must be kept up ;
and then he drew a most affecting picture of the distresses of
poor cottagers groaning under the accumulated weight of
taxes ! This was, no doubt, a very ingenious mode of cap
tivating the vulgar ; but he would ask the honourable gen
tleman how the navy was to be supported without taxing the
subject? Or how the visions of the honourable gentleman
could be realized without a great expence to the nation?
But the honourable gentleman had the admirable talent of
making attacks under the shield of modesty. Was this coun
try, then, not in a situation to take a part in preserving the

I787-1 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 285
liberties of Europe? Was she so sunk in distress as to con
sider herself inadequate to the preservation of that to which
she owed her existence, and her rank among the nations of
Europe? Did the honourable gentleman mean to hold that
language to the world ? He wished to know if that was the
language meant to be maintained; he wished some person
in authority would stand up and say so, because he could then
meet it fairly. Would the right honourable the chancellor
of the exchequer himself declare, that we were no longer in a
situation to hold the balance of power in Europe, and to be
looked up to as the protector of its liberties ? He should be
glad to come at that point. As to the assertion, that a poor
cottager was not to be talked to in that manner, he must
maintain that he was ; and notwithstanding the pressure of
taxes under which the lower order of people in this country
laboured, yet it was a comfort to hear that she was the ba
lancer of power, and the protector of the liberties of Europe.
That it was that enabled him to bear his poverty with cheer
fulness, and to feel the satisfaction, amidst all his distress,
of reflecting on the thought of his being one of the subjects
of a free country, whose characteristic it was to balance the
power of Europe. Shameful was the neglect which ministers
had shewn in the formation of alliances. Till that unhappy
period when we were left without an ally, we had always
fought successfully. From that, however, he did not mean
to contend, that it was better to build our hopes on the
strength of our alliances than on the strength of our navy.
He was aware of the difficulty which attended negociations
of that nature ; but he asserted, that ministers were culpable
in turning away with impatience from any object which they
might have attained, had they pursued it with persevering
firmness. — Mr. Fox severely answered that part of Mr.
Wilberforce's speech, in which he charged him with having
said, that he had a peace with America in his pocket. The
matter it alluded to, passed five years ago, and the honour
able gentleman now brought it forward under a gross mis
representation. He had never used the words, but had said
there were those in Great Britain empowered to treat for
peace. And the fact had turned out exactly as he had
stated it. — With respect to the negociation with the Dutch,
if there were any blame to be affixed to that measure, he was
willing to take his share of it, though it had been done with
the unanimous consent of his majesty's council. That it had
failed he did not pretend to deny, and its failure, he verily
believed, was owing to the influence of France. On that
subject, however, he would say no more, as he could not see
the connection between it and the French treaty, though the

286 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. l6.
honourable gentleman seemed to consider it as a strong
argument in his favour.
After several members had delivered their sentiments,
Mr. Fox rose again and observed, that the circumstance
which was very natural to happen, had arisen from the right
honourable the chancellor of the exchequer having so pro
perly declined to make any speech ; and the debate had pro
ceeded solely on the general merits of the treaty, without a
single word having been said to the particular question before
the committee. He would therefore bring forward an amend
ment which would go to the question immediately, and that
was, to add, as part of the resolution, " that it was the opi
nion of the committee that the duties on the importation of
Portugal wines should at the same time be lowered one third."
This, Mr. Fox observed, would be an effectual means of pre
serving the Methuen treaty in full force, so far as it related
to our part of the obligation, and would enable government
more advantageously to negotiate the pending treaty with
Portugal. The proposition was so self-evident, that he saw
not any ground on which it was objectionable ; but he was
prepared to debate it either then, or, as it was so late an
hour, the next day, if the right honourable gentleman and
the committee thought proper. He added, that as the com
mittee had not regularly before them any information that a
treaty was pending, or what state it was in, it the more be
came them to convince Portugal, and all Europe, that their
wish was to continue the Methuen treaty.
This motion was negatived without discussion, by 91 to 76.
The original resolution was then put and carried. — Mr. Fox re
probated the conduct of ministers, and stated that the committee
would be disgraced by such rash and ill-advised precipitancy and
by such indecent hurry ; he declared he would be no sharer in the
shame that must result from a conduct so obnoxious to public
censure ; he therefore rose and left the House, followed by the
whole opposition.

February 16.
This day Mr, Fox made* another effort to induce the House to
take some step for securing the continuance of the Methuen treaty,
and averting the danger, to which he contended it was exposed by
the resolution they had come to the preceding evening. On the
order of the day being read, for the House to resolve itself into a
committee to take into further consideration the treaty of naviga
tion and commerce with France,

1787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 287
Mr. Fox rose and observed, that he was now resolved to
submit to the consideration of the House the question which,
on the preceding evening, he had been prevented from intro
ducing, in a manner much more extraordinary than any in
terruption which, during the eighteen years of his having
enjoyed a seat in parliament, he recollected to have expe
rienced. If he might take the liberty of pressing his own
opinion upon the House, he should unequivocally declare,
that with this particularly important question their reputation
and their dignity were closely interwoven. The question
was at the same tune so intimately connected with that part
of the treaty with France tjien, under deliberation, that it
was impossible to pass it by, and not come to its consi
deration, without manifesting a disregard to Portugal little
short of a direct affront. He had been much blamed, in the
debate of the preceding day, and described as a person pecu
liarly fond of talking of alliances with foreign courts, of trea
ties, and of negotiations. That he was addicted to fall into
that vein of debate, unless when it was necessarily and una
voidably connected with his subject, he was not himself
aware, nor did he believe that this was really the fact ; but
how subjects, in which negotiations, treaties and alliances
with foreign courts were involved, and with which those
matters were inseparably connected, could be properly, or
rather could be at all discussed, without a reference to those
topics, he was at a loss to conjecture, unless that House was
to take the advice given by an honourable gentleman, and no
longer consider themselves as politicians. That advice not
happening to suit with his notion of the duty of a member
of parhament, he, for one, must be excused if he continued
to think, that it became him, and every gentleman entitled
to a seat within those walls, to consider himself as a politi
cian, and to direct his opinions accordingly. He had thought
it necessary to premise thus much, because he was afraid that
he must again that day incur the censure which had been
cast on him the day before, and make mention of those
topics once more, which it had been said he was too much
inclined to talk upon.
After an exordium to this purport, Mr. Fox said, the
subject to which he meant to draw the attention of the House
was the reserve made in the seventh article of the treaty of
navigation and commerce with France in favour of our con
nection with Portugal under the Methuen treaty. The com
mittee had the preceding evening come to a resolution to
lower the duties on the wines of France on importation into
this country; it appeared to him, then, to be highly and in
dispensably necessary, that the second part of that resolution

288 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. l6.
should be a resolution to lower the wines of Portugal to that
reduction at which they were intended to stand, provided
the Methuen treaty was to continue, and things to go on
as they had done from the time of concluding that treaty in
the year 1703.
Mr. Fox directed all his arguments to prove the indis
pensable necessity that he had stated, and to convince the
House, that if they did not come to the resolution then, they
indicated a negligence respecting the continuance of the con
nection of the two kingdoms under the Methuen treaty, and
an indifference to the commercial benefit thence derived
reciprocally to both countries. He professed himself aware
that it had been contended that the Methuen treaty bound
Portugal only, and that it was optional in Great Britain to
take the wines of Portugal or not. This he knew others
contradicted, and maintained that we were bound to take
the wines of Portugal on low duties, as much as Portugal
was bound to admit our woollen cloths. But in whichever
point of view it was considered, the advantages of the Me
thuen treaty had been so great, that we should act in the
most unwise and impolitic manner, if wc did not take every
step on our part to convince Portugal that we were desirous
of continuing the connection. He had never been fond of
that mode of arguing which deemed exports a gain and
imports a loss; but admitting for the moment and for the
sake of argument, that this was the true way of judging, in
the case of Portugal the argument so managed was strong
in favour of our adhering to the Methuen treaty. Our im
ports from Portugal consisted of brazil, cotton, of oil, of
dyeing drugs, of salt to salt our fish with, and of other articles
without which we could not possibly contrive to go on as a
commercial country ; if, therefore, imports were a loss, they
were a loss in this particular, that we could not possibly do
without sustaining. If our connection with Portugal was
put a stop to, we must go and purchase our loss at another
market; for the articles of our imports from Portugal, as
he had before stated, were what we must at any rate pro
cure. On the other hand, our export trade to Portugal,
was a most valuable one. It amounted to near a million
annually, and was otherwise precious to us, because the com
modities now exported to Portugal were saleable in no other
market. The Portuguese, he understood, took from us the
whole produce of a woollen manufacture in Yorkshire. He
knew not the name of the cloths, but it was an undeniable
fact, that the consumption of Portugal was equal to the
whole produce of the manufactory in question, and that the
woollens were saleable no where else. This, then, alone was

1787-] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 289
an important consideration: but, added to this, Portugal
annually bought a very considerable quantity of salt fish. — .
another commodity for the sale of which we could find no
other market. Formerly, there was another very considerable
export, an export of corn to Portugal ; but that had lately
dwindled to nothing, which he imputed to our increased
home consumption.
Mr. Fox said, he was aware, that the salt fish carried to
Portugal was conveyed thither, not under any agreement or
stipulation in the Methuen treaty, but under the conditions
of anterior treaties, and therefore it might be fair to suppose,.
that if the Methuen treaty was put an end to, we still had
a right to expect that the faith of anterior treaties should
be complied with. He entered here, however, into a series
of arguments, to shew the possibility of the putting an end
to the Methuen treaty being considered by Portugal as a
separation in toto from all connection with this country, tak
ing care to guard this doctrine by an explicit declaration,
that Portugal had derived such advantages from her connec
tion with Great Britain, and must necessarily be so serious a
loser, by giving up all pretence to her protection, that if, by
a lamentable state of perverseness, or the influence of bad
advice, she should be induced to break all connection with
us, and risk her safety in the best bargain she could make
with her neighbouring continental powers, she would do the
most rash, most unadvised, and the most absurd act that ever
a country, situated like Portugal, could commit. At the
same time it was to be remembered, that greatly as the ba
lance of advantage derived from the connection under the
Methuen treaty, was in favour of Portugal, Great Britain
would feel no inconsiderable inconvenience from the loss even
of such an ally as Portugal. What our commercial disad
vantage would be, he had stated in enumerating the species,
and mentioning the value, of our exports to Portugal. Our
political disadvantage might also be serious. In case of a
war with the House of Bourbon, we should feel — perhaps
severely feel — the want of some friendly port from Gotten-
burgh, now a French port, down to Gibraltar. These were
not ideal inconveniences, and, rash as it would be in Por
tugal to put us into such a situation, we could not but thence
lament the loss of such an ally.
Again must he repeat, and press most earnestly upon the
consideration of the Flouse, that all the too sanguine sup
porters of the treaty should consider the relative situation of
England and Portugal. For near a century back, an alliance
of mutual, though he would not say of equal convenience,
had subsisted between them. The connection, he was ready
VOL. III. u

29O TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. l6-
to acknowledge, was more necessary to Portugal than it was
to England, considered in a political point of view. She
allowed us great commercial advantages in return for protec
tion. Such was the condition, and such the politics of the
European potentates, that the weaker states must court the
alliance of the more powerful. Now, was it not highly pro
bable, that our conduct might induce the Portuguese to re
flect, that they were near neighbours to Spain, and that they
were no longer natural enemies ; that nature intended them
to supply each other's wants, and to exchange commodities
for their reciprocal benefit ? This, at least, might as well be
said of Portugal and Spain, as of France and England ; and
might induce Portugal blindly to throw herself into the arms
of Spain, and to add her balance to the already preponderat
ing weight of the House of Bourbon. Thus should we not
only lose the benefits we might derive from an alliance with
Portugal, but have her in the scale against us. Nothing
could more tend to exasperate, and move her to act in this
manner, than the present conduct of ministers. The pride
and dignity of Portugal, as an independent kingdom, had
been wounded by them. No person in this House was more
an advocate for acting with vigour towards foreign states
than he was; but he confessed that he thought this rigid tone
might be assumed with more honour and justice towards
other states than towards Portugal. Not long ago we were
blamed by all Europe for our insolence ; and he was sorry
to find, that we should not be acquitted of the exercise of
that vice. If we thought proper to retain our style of haugh
tiness, it ought to be towards our old rivals and equals in
power, and not a subordinate, and, in respect to us, a very
defenceless people. That was far from being the conduct
that a brave and a generous nation ought to adopt.
Mr. Fox contended strenuously, that if the House did not
instruct the committee to come to an immediate resolution,
that the duties on the wines of Portugal should be lowered
one third, they, in fact, broke the Methuen treaty, or at
least departed from its spirit and meaning ; intimated to Por
tugal a ground of doubt as to their intention of not ultimately
complying with the Methuen treaty, and, in fact, for the
moment paid France a compliment at the expence of Por
tugal, by holding it out to all the world, that during the
course of their proceedings France was preferred, and her
interests first attended to. Suppose, said Mr. Fox, that the
Queen of Portugal were to publish an edict, prohibiting the
importation of our woollens into her dominions, would this
country think that a handsome thing towards them, or that
it dignified their ground for renewing a negotiation ? In like

1787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 29!
manner let them feci for Portugal; if the Methuen treaty
was not recognized without delay, it was virtually broken,
because the duties on the wines of Portugal, as far as the
ultimate intention of the legislature was to be collected from
a resolution of the House of Commons, appeared to stand
on the same footing as the duties on the wines of France ;
and if they actually were left to stand on that footing, every
gentleman knew it would be a direct violation of the Me
thuen treaty. Great, indeed, was the difference between
recognizing the condition of the Methuen treaty primarily
and secondarily, or in other words, by a resolution antecedent
to the sending the bill to be brought in upon the resolutions
come to in the committee, up to the House of Lords, or by
a resolution afterwards. But what he contended was the
strongest argument to induce the House to act in the man
ner he had advised, was their not having before them in due
parliamentary form, any grounds whatever to lead them to
suspend an act expressive of readiness on their part to ma
nifest their desire to comply with the Methuen treaty. They
had, indeed, heard of negotiations pending with Portugal,
and they had heard of grievances complained of, but they
knew not the grievances, nor the situation and circumstances
of the pending negociations. They knew not that the com
plaints of grievances were even justly founded, and therefore
as a House of Parhament they had no grounds whatever to
induce them to act otherwise than as if no negociation what
ever was pending, nor any complaints of grievances existing.
Mr. Fox pressed this as the great foundation of his argu
ment, and as the basis of his motion, and after a variety of
other points, recapitulated what he had set out with, namely,
a statement of the two points of view in which the Methuen
treaty had been considered as binding on Portugal, and
optional with regard to us ; or, as binding equally on Por
tugal and Great Britain. He concluded with moving, " That
it be an instruction to the said committee, that they do, in
the first place, proceed to consider of reducing the duties
upon wines directly imported from Portugal into Great Bri
tain, so that such wines may pay no higher duties than two-
thirds of the duties to be imposed upon wines imported di
rectly from France."
The motion was supported with great ability by Sir Grey
Cooper, and opposed by Mr. Pitt, as interfering by a premature
resolution in a matter delegated by the constitution to the execu*
tive government. With respect to what had been said of the
House having no parliamentary knowledge of a pending negocia
tion, he asserted that a declaration delivered by him in Ms place,
v 2

292 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 2I~
and as a minister, that such a negociation was pending, was entitled
to be considered as formal parliamentary information. He con
cluded with repeating his declaration, that he had every reason to
expect the negotiation would prove successful ; if, however, it
should not succeed, he would lay before the House, for their judg
ments, the grounds upon which it had failed.
Mr. Fox said, he would not take the sense of the House,.
as the right honourable gentleman had put the matter upon
such an issue. He said the right honourable gentleman had
rested on an assertion, but no argument. The right honour
able gentleman, the House would remember, was responsible,
not for the success of the measure, as that no man could an
swer for, but for any unfortunate turn the treaty might take
in consequence of the mode of negotiation, the right honour
able gentleman, as a minister, had thought proper to choose.
Mr. Fox defended his motion, and denied that it would have
embarrassed government; on the contrary, he contended it
would have been a good ground for government to have
acted upon. He by no means consented to admit that his
motion was an active measure in favour of Portugal, and
beyond what she had a just right to. He contended it was
exactly the reverse, and to prove the argument, he again
put the case, that if the Queen of Portugal should have
issued an edict prohibiting the export of our woollens, he
should have thought she had acted unfairly by us. His
motion, he insisted upon it, was an act of bare justice to
Portugal.

-{->•

The motion was negatived without a division. The House then
went into the committee, in which the remaining resolutions were
carried. On the 19th they were reported to the House, and finally
agreed to, upon a division, by a great majority.

February 21.
The last debate which this important measure gave rise to, took
place this day, upon the motion of Mr. Blackburne, the member
for Lancashire, " That an humble address be presented to his
majesty, assuring his majesty that we have taken into our most se
rious consideration the provisions contained in the treaty of navi
gation and commerce, concluded between his majesty and the most
christian king ; and that we beg leave to approach his majesty with
our sincere and grateful acknowledgements for this additional
proof of his majesty's constant attention to the welfare and happi
ness of his subjects. — That we shall proceed with all proper expe
dition in taking such steps as may be necessary for giving effect
to a system so well calculated to promote a beneficial intercourse
between Great Britain and France, and to give additional perms-

2787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 293
nence to the blessings of peace: — That it is our firm persuasion,
that we cannot more effectually consult the general interests of
our country, and the glory of his majesty's reign, than by concur
ring in a measure which tends to the extension of trade, and the
encouragement of industry and manufacture, the genial sources of
national wealth, and the surest foundation of the prosperity and
happiness of his majesty's dominions."
In opposition to the address Mr. Charles Grey*, the representa
tive for Northumberland, made his maiden speech, and astonished
the House by another of those wonderful displays of oratorical
abilities, which, in the course of a few years, had burst forth, on
every side, amongst its younger members. Mr. Grey was acknow
ledged not to be inferior to any of those who preceded him, in co
piousness and elegance of diction, in strength of argument, or in
perspicuity of arrangement, and superior to them all in the graces
of elocution. He agreed with Mr. Fox in considering the general
policy of the measure as by far the most important object it
involved ; he stated at large the relative situation and political in
terests of the two nations, and from thence inferred the wisdom of
that established system of our policy, in which France had always
been regarded with the most suspicious jealousy at. least, if not as
our natural foe. He confirmed these opinions by a reference to
our unvaried experience ; and asked upon what grounds it was
presumed that she had at once totally abandoned all her ancient
political principles, and had no longer any object in view inimical
to our interests ? He endeavoured to prove, that the present mo
ment was perhaps that, of all others, in which our jealousy ought
to be the most awake, and in which we had the least reason for re
posing any confidence in her. With this view he read a state pa
per, which had passed between M. de Calonne, the French minister,
and Mr. Jefferson, the plenipotentiary of the United States of
America in Paris. It contained a proposition on the part of France
to concede ^o that country, without stipulation, a great variety of
commercial advantages detrimental to her own revenues, in which
no other European nation, not even the Spaniards, were indulged.
And was it to be supposed that France really expected no equiva
lent? She doubtless expected it in a monopoly of that trade which
we once enjoyed, and which constituted two-thirds of our commer
cial marine: — she expected it in the augmentation of her own
navy, and in the ruin of ours. Whilst she was enticing us by what
had been justly called by Mr. Fox a " tempting bait," to conclude a
treaty of commerce with her for the supply of her own market, she
had been securing customers to take the commodities off her hands ;
and thus not only to become the carrier, but to trade to an extent
she had hitherto been unable to aspire at, upon the capital of this
country. Another object which he believed France had in view,
was to render us as much politically insulated,.as we were insulated
in our local situation. One effect which she would look for in this
tempting treaty was, to draw us off from seeking alliances with the

The present Earl Grey.
u 3

194 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 21.
rest of Europe ; it had already, in some degree, produced this ef
fect, as was manifest from the coldness which ministers discovered
with respect to the Methuen treaty. He earnestly recommended,
instead of the present treaty, a more intimate connection with
America ; such an intercourse would be the most eligible for Great
Britain that could be devised, and entirely consistent with her true
political interests ; and such an intercourse he had the best reasons
for believing America was both willing and eager to enter into
upon fair and equitable terms. He remarked upon the indecency as
well as the impolicy of granting to France what we had refused to
Ireland, and of giving to a rival and a natural enemy what we had
withheld from our friends and fellow-subjects. With respect to all
the temporary advantages, some of which he believed might reason
ably be expected from the treaty, they were to him additional rea
sons for rejecting it. Every offer of service from France, he re
garded with suspicion —
 timeo Danaos & dona ferentes —
— —Aut ulla putatis
Dona carere dolis Danaum ?
The address was also opposed by Mr. Burke and Mr. Sheridan,
and supported by Mr. W. Grenville, Mr. D. Pulteney, Lord
Mornington and others, upon the grounds already stated ; but at a
late hour an objection to the. address was stated by Mr. Welbore
Ellis, who contended that the motion for an address in the present
stage of the business was premature, unprecedented, and unparlia
mentary, tending to deprive the House of its powers of delibera
tion, and to pledge them to pass bills for carrying the provisions
of the treaty into effect. He therefore moved the previous ques
tion. Mr. Anstruther defied ministers to produce a single instance
from the journals that could in any manner be brought to bear upon
so extraordinary a proceeding. Mr. Adam endeavoured to shew,
that, by the principles adopted by parliament, and the invariable
practice of the House, the address ought to be resisted by all who
had any regard for the independence of the House of Commons, or
the dignity and honour of the crown. The proceedings of parliament
upon the treaty of Utrecht were referred to as a case in point, and
as an useful lesson to the House against hastiness and precipitation.
That treaty was laid before the House by a message from the queen.
A committee of the whole House was appointed to take the 8th and
9th articles into consideration. After a long debate in that com
mittee, on the question that the House be moved for leave to bring
in a bill to make effectual the 8th and 9th articles of the treaty of
commerce, the question was carried by a very large majority, greater
than on any vote on the present treaty. The bill was brought in,
and read a first time, at the distance of a fortnight from the vote in
the first committee. There was an interval of a week between the
first and second reading of the bill. Petitions now came in from
all quarters : and the committee on the bill sat for many days to
hear the petitioners by their counsel against the treaty. The re
port from this committee was received and agreed to. But on the
question, that the bill with amendments be engrossed, it was carried

I787O TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 295
in the negative by a majority of nine. No address was presented
to the queen till after the rejection of the bill.
Mr. Fox said, that the House having had the goodness to
hear him so frequently, and sometimes at considerable length,
upon the subject of the commercial treaty, he would not, they
might rest assured, abuse their indulgence, but would in a
very brief manner offer a few observations to their notice on
the immediate matter before them. With regard to the ad
dress, of all the practices of administration, it was the most
alarming, the most dangerous, and the most unconstitutional.
He would not, indeed, go so far as an honourable and learned
friend of his had gone, and agree, that if a single precedent
could be found upon the journals for such a proceeding, he
would relinquish the point, and vote for the address. There
might be, and there undoubtedly were, bad precedents upon
the journals in a great many instances. There might possibly,
therefore, be a precedent for the present proceeeding, but if
there should be a precedent to be found, he would venture to
say, that it must be a precedent to be reprobated, and not a
precedent fit to be made an example.
Mr. Fox reminded the House that the address went to de
prive the House of its legislative capacity, to preclude debate,
and to render null and void all those forms which the wis
dom of their ancestors had provided, as the parliamentary
cautions and guards against surprize, and for the purpose of
preventing any measure of a legislative nature from being hur
ried through the House, without ample deliberation and ample
discussion. Had the business been brought on in the usual
way, they would have enjoyed full time to know the opinion
of the manufacturers, and to discuss the subject again and
again, before they came to a decisive vote upon it. In all cases
of trade, the forms of the House obliged the matter to be first
submitted to a committee of the whole House, where resolu
tions were necessary to be moved, and consequently where the
matter was in the first instance open to debate. The resolu
tions, when agreed to, were reported to the House, and on the
House agreeing to the report, a bill was ordered in. Had
that been the mode of proceeding adopted in the present case,
instead of a premature address, the House would have had
six stages to have discussed the subject in, before they came to
their ultimate vote. The bill must be read a first time, it must
be read a second time, committed, reported, engrossed and
read a third time, and passed. At every one of these several
stages, the House would have found ample opportunity of
debating deliberately; whereas what was the case then? They
were called on to vote an address which tied up their hands,
v 4

296 TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. [Feb. 21.'
which pledged the House to support whatever bill might be
brought in, and precluded all future debate and. all future dis
cussion. Mr. Fox said, that this was an ill omen of our future inter
course with France ; it was a bad beginning ; it was adopting
and copying the French constitution at the same time that we
were about to take the French commerce. It was commencing
our intercourse with France in a most inauspicious manner,
and it was not more ungraceful than unnecessary, because the
coming to a vote upon the address would not accelerate the
conclusion of the proceedings on the commercial treaty ; it
would not forward them one hour. Would it not then, on
every account, have been more wise, more grave, and more
becoming that House, to have proceeded in the usual way
by bill, and after they had gone through all the six stages,
through which a bill must necessarily pass, would it not have
been better, in every sense of the word, to have then voted an
address, and gone up to the throne with it, informing his
majesty, that his faithful commons had complied with his
royal requisition in his speech to parliament, and agreed to
support the commercial treaty with France ? Mr. Fox put this
in a most striking point of view, and said, that should the
address unfortunately pass, which he flattered himself it would
not, he must in that case heartily wish that the House had
been in a committee, if it were only to save the Speaker from
the shame and disgrace of going up to his majesty and pre
senting an address. What sort of a speech could the right
honourable gentleman possibly make, should he have the dis
agreeable task of attending at St. James's with the address ?
With what an aukward feeling must the right honourable
gentleman say, that his majesty's faithful commons had de
stroyed their own forms, and grossly violated the constitution.
He reasoned upon this for some time, and after stating it
powerfully in various ways, he urged to the House the great
unreasonableness of the right honourable gentleman opposite
to him, if he pressed the motion on the address at that time,
since it was evident that he would not forward the business
by so doing. It was not delay, he said, that he was con
tending for, because the delaying the address could not ope
rate as any procrastination of the measures to be taken for the
conclusion of the treaty. He took notice of the contempt
with which an honourable and learned gentleman had talked
of the manufacturers who signed the petition on their table.
They were not, he said, a " few solitary" manufacturers as
they had been described to be, but men of undoubted charac
ter and undoubted worth and honour. Men, who, when they
came before that House, either as the delegates and represen-

1787.] TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE. 297
tatives of others, or in their own individual character, were
well entitled to be received and listened to with attention.
They had a right to be heard in every stage of the business ;
but how would the House be able to hear them after the ad
dress was presented, when they would be precluded from act
ing upon any information, however important, that Mr. Wal
ker or Mr. Holmes, or any other of the subscribers, might lay
before the House ? Having put these questions strongly, and
paid an handsome compliment to his honourable friend Mr.
Grey, Mr. Fox at last concluded a most animated speech, with
expressing his hope, that it would be the determination of the
House to reject the address for the present, by agreeing to
the motion for the previous question, since, if they did not, they
would not only make a bad precedent for that House, but as
absolutely preclude the House of Lords from free debate, as
if they had followed the example of Oliver Cromwell, and
silenced that necessary and constitutional branch of the legis
lature. In answer to these objections, Mr. Pitt insisted upon the ad
dress on the Irish propositions, but two years before, as a prece
dent in point, in favour of the mode of proceeding he had adopted.
Mr. Sheridan rose with great warmth, and many gentlemen calling
out spoke ! spoke ! he said he meant to move a new question, the
question of adjournment; in order that he might have an oppor
tunity of proposing a resolution upon the subject of the extraor
dinary doctrines which had been laid down ; doctrines as new and
as unconstitutional as ever were heard in those walls ! — The
question of adjournment being put,
Mr. Fox said, that as his honourable friend had omitted to
state what resolution he meant to move, he would declare,
that his object was to move a resolution, " that it was the opi
nion of that House, that it was impossible for them to bind or
preclude themselves by an address to the throne, from either
debating or voting upon any subsequent legislative question
whatever." Mr. Fox reiterated his former arguments, to shew
the propriety of proceeding by way of bill, and instanced the
case of the Irish propositions, declaring that no man present
dreamt of moving an address, stating in express words to the
throne, that the House would pass any specific number of
bills for. the purpose of enforcing the propositions. Had such
an address been moved, it would have been reprobated. In
the case of the peace of Utrecht, let the House recollect that
a bill had been brought in to enact the eighth and ninth
articles of the treaty of commerce. The question for leave to
bring in the bill had, on a division, been carried by an un
commonly large majority, the numbers having been above

298 MR. fox's motion respecting [March 7.
100 to 12 or 13. It was read a second time upon a division
of a large majority also, and it went through the committee,
and two or three days afterwards, was in the very last stage
thrown out by a majority of 194 voices against 185 *. This
proved the importance of a regular compliance with the forms
of the House, and a due exercise of their deliberative powers.
A large majority had thus been, by mere dint of debate and
discussion, converted into a minority,, and one of the worst,
and most hostile treaties to the British constitution that ever
was heard of, was put an end to and annihilated. What was
the reason that the right honourable gentleman did not pro
ceed in the same way now? The reason was obvious. Aware
of the event of 17 13, he was determined to proceed in another
manner; and in order to ensure the success of his treaty, in
stead of risquing the chance of deliberation, he had profited
by the fate of the treaty of Utrecht, and had caused an address
to be moved to tie up the hands of the House, and preclude
all debate and all danger of future opposition. Had Lord
Bolingbroke and Mr. Harley, in the year 1713, been aware
of the fate of their treaty, they no doubt would have aimed
at doing the same thing; but in those days when one of
the most powerful factions governed this country that had
ever been in possession of power, they never dreamt of ven
turing such a length as the right honourable gentleman, who
had profited by the short-sightedness of the ministry of 171 3,
and had whetted his sagacity upon their dulpess.
The motion for an adjournment was then negatived. After
which the House divided on the previous question :
Tellers. Tellers.
v„ . „ f ^f r- R°se 1 „ /: xr 1 Lord Maitland 1 ,
Yeas j Mr. M. A. Taylor \ *&<-**** \ Lord Downe. j J l6'
So it was resolved in the affirmative, and the main question being
put, the address was agreed to, and ordered to be communicated,
at a conference, to the lords.

Mr. Fox's Motion respecting the Nature and Extemt
of Parliamentary Addresses to the King.
March 7.
IN consequence of the preceding debate, and in pursuance of a
notice which he had given,
* See New Parliamentary History of England, vol. vi. pp. laio. 1 jjo.

I787.] PARLIAMENTARY ADDRESSES TO THE KINffl. 299
Mr. Fox rose for the purpose of making a motion concerning
the nature and extent of parliamentary addresses to the crown.
He said, that he felt it his duty to call the attention of the
House to a few remarks which he must beg leave to make on
a recent occurrence, in which, at least in his conception, were
most essentially involved the established rights of parliament,
and the best interests of the nation. The matter to which he
alluded was the address which that House had thought proper
to vote on the commercial treaty. The time at which this
address was moved and passed tended, in his mind, to subvert
the forms of parliament, and thereby to destroy the legislative
authority, the spirit of the constitution, and, consequently,
the dearest privileges of the nation. On the preservation of
th$ forms of parliament the security of the laws depended.
No part of the constitution had been more tenaciously pre
served than the forms by which all laws were enacted. If the
forms were dispensed with, the constitution of the legislature
must be annihilated; and he thought that the forms were
destroyed by the address being passed on a subject before that
subject was determined. For this address, having been passed
alter certain resolutions had passed, and previous to a bill
being brought in founded upon those resolutions, the House
were precluded from exercising their right of decision on the
subject ; and the words of the address containing not only an
' approbation, but a pledge, of using the earliest means of
carrying the treaty into effect, he thought the intention was
to preclude parliament from the exercise of their opinions,
with which they were invested by the constitution. With
respect to the system of this parliamentary form, as to its
efficient political principle, he should observe, that the mode
of passing bills, both in this and the other House, was cer
tainly very deliberate. It might indeed, in the opinion of
some, be considered tedious ; but those gentlemen who enter
tained such sentiments betrayed their rashness and inex
perience. He did not mean to say what were the forms of
the other House ; he had never studied them, and was there
fore not so well acquainted with them as with those of the
House of Commons. In the latter, in the form of passing a
bill of such importance as the present, there were several
stages. A bill relating to commerce or finance, was, ist,
moved for in a committee ; 2d, that committee reported ; 3d,
leave was given to bring in a bill ; 4th, the bill was read a first
time; 5th, a second time; 6th, committed; 7th, reported;
8th, read a third time ; and 9th, passed; besides two other
stages of lesser consideration, the engrossment, and the motion
for leaving the chair.
The reason of these different stages was in order to give

3°° MR. fox's MOTION respecting [March 7.
parliament so many different opportunities of considering the
tendency of the measure before they finally gave it their con
currence. This caution was therefore exceedingly wise; for
nothing required more deliberation than laws enacted for the
welfare, protection, and government of the people ; and there
fore it became their constitutional guardians, their represen
tatives, to be exceedingly cautious of adopting any measure
which might tend to preclude them from the free and un
limited exercise of their judgments, on every subject in which
the interests of the country were essentially concerned. It
was with this view that he meant to submit to them, before he
sat down, his motion ; for he was clearly of opinion, that the
address which the House had lately voted to his majesty was
an infringement of the free, unbiassed, and unrestrained ex
ercise of their judgment. After the business had been only
four or five days before parliament, and in its second stage,
the House had absolutely come to a vote which precluded
them from giving any opinion in the subsequent stages through
which the treaty was to pass ; and thus, whatever their senti
ments were, or might be, they could not prove availing. Hav
ing pledged themselves to his majesty to take all early and
possible means of carrying the said treaty into effect, they
were reduced to a very unpleasant dilemma, either to let the
treaty pass, however repugnant its principles, or subject them
selves to the charge of having given a faithless promise to his
majesty. This was of all situations the most to be avoided.
It was derogatory to that sacred faith which should be pre
served, and that respect which they should entertain in all
concerns either of addresses or promises to the sovereign.
As to the plea that no necessity existed for adhering to the
accustomed parliamentary forms in the present transaction,
he could not see any principle in the commercial treaty which
could authorise parliament to let it pass with less inquiry and
circumspection than even the most ordinary concerns. On
the contrary, it was a subject, which, of all others, required
the most deliberate investigation. Besides, being a com
mercial question, it became such a subject that the parliament
had thought it expedient even to add two more stages to the
investigation than what were adopted on ordinary concerns.
The committee of the whole House and the report were added
by a resolution of parliament in the year 1772. Thus, not only
the invariable custom of ancient times evinced the necessity of
giving every possible opportunity for the House to consider most
maturely the tendency of any bill in its different stages; but the
opinion of modern times had been, that it was necessary to in
crease the stages of inquiry on a subject of such importance.
With regard to himself, he had been censured for repeatedly
recurring to one subject. But this was a species of censure

1787.] PARLIAMENTARY ADDRESSES TO THE KING. $01
which he should treat with contempt. This was the case in
the present instance. He had, during the progress of this
business, frequently mentioned the treaty of Utrecht. He
should now beg leave to mention that subject again, as it
tended to illustrate what he had to propose to the House.
Had the ministry of that day voted an address to Queen Anne,
and in it induced parliament to pledge themselves to carry the
said treaty into effect at the time of its progress through the
House, as they had on the present occasion, the consequence
must have been the passings of the commercial part of the
treaty into a law ; for it was only by not doing it that this evil
had been avoided. During the first stages of the considera
tion of that treaty in parliament, there was no material oppo
sition. On the contrary, it passed through the Committee,
and was reported by very considerable majorities. But,, in
the subsequent stages, information was obtained, objections
were made, and the majority of parliament very wisely re
jected it, as a measure that threatened the whole com
mercial interest of the country almost with annihilation.
Happy, therefore, it was, that the ministry of that day did
not bring a motion for an address to his majesty before par
liament, when the majorities of the House were so much in
favour of the treaty. If they had, the address would cer
tainly have passed, and the country would have been ruined.
To this he attributed all the subsequent prosperity and glory
we had acquired. To the rejection of the commercial part of
the treaty that great queen owed her highest honours, if not
her regal dignities.
Mr. Fox now adverted to the manner in which the bill for
carrying the treaty into effect had been connected with that for
the consolidation of the customs. This, he observed, had
likewise a close relation to the subject on which he had been
troubling the House. By this vote of address, the Lords in
the other House would not have an opportunity of exercising
their judgments in the passing of the bill to which he alluded.
Besides, as it was connected with the consolidation of the
customs, they were even precluded, by this means, of exer
cising the only right they had — with respect to a money bill
— of adopting or rejecting it. If they were disposed to reject
the consolidation bill, they could not, as it was connected
with a subject they had pledged themselves to carry into effect.
And if they were disposed to alter any parts of the commercial
treaty, with regard to any matter in their power, they could
not, as it formed part of a money bill; and thus was the ex
ercise of their lordships' rights fettered by the address, and by
uniting these two subjects. This address, too, would entirely
prevent the House from adopting any system that might here-

302 MR. fox's motion respecting [March 7.
after be settled with respect to Portugal, if such system de
viated from that established in the treaty with France. We
had, therefore, not only deprived ourselves of the privilege of
exercising our opinions and discretion, with regard to the
treaty itself; but we had likewise deprived ourselves of the
privilege of exercising any opinion or decision on pending
treaties with foreign powers, if they did not happen perfectly
to coincide with the one negotiated with France.
Mr. Fox now made some observations on the manner in
which the court of France had depended on the ratification of
this treaty. They had stated in the convention — " as soon as
it had received the sanction of the law." But to receive this
sanction of the law, it must be submitted to all those forms
and investigations which constituted our laws. And as the
address prevented this possibility, the treaty, could not be said
to have the sanction of the law. How, then, could the
French court expect it to be ratified ? He consequently
thought that the address had absolutely destroyed the legal
possibility of the treaty being so carried into effect as to ad
mit of a ratification. To have the sanction of our laws, as he
before observed, it was necessary that it should pass every
form of parliament. But if that House was precluded from
giving their opinions, whatever forms or stages it might pass
through, they could be of no effect with regard to legal effi
ciency. In this point of view, he thought the address abso
lutely destructive of the intention for which it was professedly
moved — that of carrying the subject as immediately into ef
fect as possible. For nothing could have the efficiency of law
that was not properly submitted to those forms which the con
stitution prescribed for the making of such laws.
Mr. Fox next adverted to the nature of addresses to his
majesty. There were two modes in which such addresses
were necessary and serviceable. These were with regard to
negociation and the prosecution of war. In both these in
stances, addresses strengthened the effort of Government.
But then, they contained no particular pledges. They con
tained, in general terms, an offer of their lives and proper
ties in support of the measures then prosecuting. But how
did such addresses differ from the present ? Instead of con
taining a general disposition or approbation of a treaty being
formed with France, it contained a specific assurance that the
particulars of the treaty should be carried into effect. What
was this but interfering, in the most unconstitutional manner,
with the rights of the legislature ? What had the House done
in agreeing to such an address ? They had even given a sa
cred promise to majesty which it was not in their power to
give. No opinion, at least no assurance could be given, that
16

1787.3 PARLIAMENTARY addresses to the king. 303
any measure should be carried into effect while it was depend
ing in parliament. For there was no stage of any bill passing
through that House, in which parliament could assure any
one that it should pass, until the last stage. Then a decided
assurance might be given, and not before.
Thus had parliament, by this address, given his majesty
an assurance, which they could not give, consistently with
the principles of the constitution. They were likewise so
situated, that all future proceedings in this business would be
nugatory. They had dispensed with their own privileges ;
and however inimical they might find it hereafter, they must
carry the treaty into effect. They had pledged themselves to
their sovereign ; and if they did not mean to couch a faithless
promise under a solemn assurance to his majesty, they could
not recede from their vote. This was the predicament to
which they were reduced by this premature proceeding. And
in what manner to rescue themselves from either of these al
ternatives he knew not. But in order to relieve them as far as
it was possible from their embarrassing situation, he would
offer a protest, or motion, whereby the House would declare
they were not bound by any address to the throne from deli
berating and acting in its legislative capacity ; nor that the
subject was in any degree prevented from petitioning the
House in consequence of such address. This, he said, would
be a declaration of right ; and would tend to do away the un
constitutional effects of the address. He accordingly movedj
" That no address from this House, to the throne, can in any
degree bind or pledge this House, in its legislative capacity,
or bar the subjects' right of petitioning this House, upon any
bill depending in parliament, although such bill be founded
upon, and conformable to such address, previously agreed to
by the House."
Mr. Pitt opposed the motion, and moved, in order to negative
the whole, to prefix the following words by way of amendment.
" That it is necessary to declare that, &c." This amendment being
carried, the House divided on the main question so amended :
Tellers. Tellers.
v„'« fMr.North 1 „ ,- a f Mr. Neville 1 ,aft
Yeas iMr.JdIiffe i "3  Nobs (Mr.Steele J 188.
So it passed ia the negative.

3 04 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [Feb. f.

Articles of Charge against Mr. Hastings.

February 7.
ON the first day of the session Mr. Burke gave notice that he
should renew the proceedings against Mr. Hastings on the 1 st
of February. That and the following day were spent in examin
ing Mr. Middleton and Sir Elijah Impey ; and on Wednesday, the
7th, Mr. Sheridan opened the third charge against Mr. Hastings,
viz. the resumption of the jaghires, and the confiscation of the
treasures of the princesses of Oude, the mother and grandmother of
the reigning nabob. The subject of this charge was peculiarly fitted for
displaying all the pathetic powers of eloquence ; and never were
they displayed with greater skill, force, and elegance, than upon
this occasion. For five hours and a half Mr. Sheridan kept the
attention of the house (which from the expectation of the day was
uncommonly crowded) fascinated by his eloquence; and when he
sat down, the whole house, the members, peers, and strangers,
involuntarily joined in a tumult of applause, and adopted a mode of
expressing their approbation, new and irregular in that house, by
loudly and repeatedly clapping with their hands. Mr. Burke de
clared it to be the most astonishing effort of eloquence, argument,
and wit united, of which there is any record or tradition. Sir
William Dolben said, that the speech of Mr. Sheridan had stated
in so able a manner such a variety of facts and arguments, as en
tirely to have exhausted the spirits as well as the attention of the
Committee ; he therefore thought it would be most proper to ad
journ the debate. This would' give gentlemen time to recruit
their spirits, and to collect their exhausted attention. It was now
a very late hour. It would be impossible, should they prosecute
the business, to come to any vote without adjourning. And in
deed, he confessed, that in the present state of his mind it would
be impossible for him to give a determinate opinion. Mr. Stan
hope said, that when he entered the House, he was not ashamed
to acknowledge that his opinion inclined rather to the side of Mr.
Hastings ; but such had been the wonderful effect of the honoura
ble gentleman's convincing statement of facts, and irresistible
eloquence, that he now with as much freedom acknowledged, that
he could not say but his sentiments were materially changed. No
thing, indeed, but information almost equal to a miracle, could, he
thought, determine him not to vote against the accused: but,
however, as he found such had been the effect of what he had heard,
he could not by any means then determine to give his vote. He
wished to collect his reason, and calmly to consider the truth and
justice of what had been stated with such apparent aid of truth, as
to render it beyond the power of contradiction.
11

I787O CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 305
Mr. Fox said, he could by no means consent to an ad
journment, standing as the question in debate then stood. As
to the lateness of the night, it was but twelve o'clock ; and
surely no gentleman would contend, that without any other
reason being assigned, merely the lateness of the hour was a
sufficient reason. At present the committee had heard a very
brilliant speech from his honourable friend ; a speech, every
word of which carried conviction to his mind ; and, it was
pretty obvious, it had made no small impression on the
minds of the House in general. He flattered himself, there
fore, that there was likely to be very little difference of opi
nion in the House ; and, in that case, he saw no reason why
they could not proceed, and come to the question. If any of
the friends of Mr. Hastings wished to rise, and offer any thing,
that they might think likely to efface or lessen the impres
sion made by what had fallen from his honourable friend,
that was the fit moment for offering it : but as nothing had yet
been said that was likely to have that effect, unless gentlemen
had any doubts to state, and would be so good as to open
them, he must oppose the motion for adjourning under such
circumstances, as improper and unprecedented.
Mr. Pitt said, that on a questionof so complicated a nature, it was*
scarcely to be supposed that there would not be some difference of
opinion ; possibly therefore, although the hour was not so far ad
vanced as it sometimes had been on former occasions, it might be
advisable to adjourn then. For his part, he would not then de
clare in which way he had made up his mind to vote ; yet he meant
to deliver his sentiments at large on the motion, and should un
avoidably be obliged to take up a good deal of the time of the com
mittee. With regard to the honourable gentleman, all the im
pression that genius and talents could command, his speech cer
tainly would make : but surely the honourable gentleman's friends
paid him an ill compliment in supposing, that four and twenty
hours would obliterate the effect, or blunt the pressure of his ar
guments. An abler speech had, perhaps, never been delivered ;
but though he was willing to pay that tribute to the honourable
gentleman which his abilities- deserved, he by no means could agree,
that because one dazzling speech had been delivered, other gen
tlemen ought not to be permitted to deliver their sentiments.
Mr. Fox said that so alarming a precedent as that of ad
journing merely because one fine speech had been delivered,
was what he never could consent to ; and he was sure the right
honourable gentleman was not aware of the badness of the
precedent such a proceeding would establish when he proposed
it. Would the right honourable gentleman, fqr instance, on
days when he had a motion to make, and there was occasion,
VOL. III. x

306 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [Feb. 7,
as there often had been, for him to introduce it with a very
long speech, choose, that, as soon as he had done speaking,
the House should adjourn, in order to afford gentlemen time
to consider of that speech, and to find out in what manner
they could best answer it ? He was sure that was a mode of
doing business that the right honourable gentleman by no
means wished to grow into custom. With regard to the com
pliment paid to his honourable friend, he knew his honoura
ble friend too well, to think he wished for that sort of com
pliment conveyed by delay. His honourable friend had the
cause and the justice of it, in which he had pleaded so power
fully as to flash conviction on almost every man's mind, too
much at heart, to desire to postpone the decision that ought
to follow his argument His honourable friend had spoken
ably, and indeed almost miraculously, as an honourable gen
tleman had expressed it ; but why had he done so ? Not
merelyr because he had the gift of singular and superior ta
lents, but because he had spoken in a right cause — because
he had a heart susceptible of feeling, and capable of
sympathising with the woes of those who claimed protec
tion on account of their innocence and their defenceless
condition, and on account of the unparalleled oppressions
they had endured. His honourable friend's speech had been
called, and justly called, an eloquent one. Eloquent, indeed,
it was — so much so, that all he had ever heard, all he had
ever read, when compared with it dwindled into nothing, and
vanished like vapour before the sun. Having paid this debt
of justice to his honourable friend, Mr. Fox again urged his
argument against adjourning, unless some better reason was
assigned than the mere lateness of the hour. If any gentle
man thought he could answer the strong argument that had
been that day delivered, or if gentlemen had any doubts upon
their mind, let them state those doubts, or let them give the
answer they meant to offer ; but why adjourn without so do
ing, unless it was from a sense that what had been that day
said was unanswerable, and from a wish to gain time, and by
negociation and manoeuvre accomplish that, which could not
be done by fair argument. He said, he hoped to God, for
the sake of the right honourable gentleman's character, and
for the sake of what was still more important, the character
of that House, the right honourable gentleman did not mean
to vote against the question : if he did, he would doubtless
support his vote by arguments, that, in the right honourable
gentleman's mind at least, appeared likely to have some
weight with the House : if so, why not deliver those argu
ments then, and oppose their impression, whatever it might
be, to the impression which had been made by his honoura-

1787-] CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 307
ble friend's speech ? What could be the object of delay, but
merely an opportunity of preventing the operation which the
truth and eloquence of his honourable friend's speech would
otherwise have in convicting the delinquent, and redeeming the
injured character of the nation ? With respect to the pretence
of adjourning for the sake of deliberation, he could not admit
its propriety. If gentlemen had not come with party pre
possessions and personal partialities, they would not hesitate
to vote when their minds were most alive to the cause of indi
vidual justice and national honour. The delay, he conceived,
to be unexampled ; for he never knew of any debate being ad
journed, without some strong reason of necessity being given ;
but in the present instance nothing of this nature had been
stated as an excuse.
The motion of adjournment was then carried.

April 2.
The report from the committee appointed to consider of the se
veral articles of charge against Mr. Hastings was brought up by
their chairman, Mr. St. John ; and upon the question that it be
now read a first time, Mr. Pitt observed, that in a business of
such consequence as that in which they were engaged, he felt
every successive stage become more and more important, and
could not therefore repress his anxiety to preserve that degree of
formality and regularity in the proceeding, which should leave
him and other members at full liberty to deliver their votes, without
hesitation, singly and exclusively, on the merits of the grand de
cisive question of impeachment, and free from any objections that
jnight be made to the form in which that question should come
forward. He therefore wished to know how Mr. Burke intended
to proceed. For his part, having in some of the articles gone
only a certain length in his assent, and by no means admitted a
degree of guilt equal to that imputed in the charges, he could
not think himself justified in joining in a general vote of impeach
ment, which might seem to countenance the whole of each several
charge, those parts which he thought really criminal, as well as
those which were of an exculpatory nature. The method which
it was most adviseable, in his opinion, to pursue, was to refer the
charges to a committee, in order to select out of them the crimi
nal matter, and frame it into articles of impeachment; and then,
on those articles, when reported to the House, to move the ques
tion of impeachment. If, on the contrary, the mode adopted was,
to move the impeachment immediately, ha should find himself
under a necessity of moving, on the report from the committee,
which had already sat on the charges, several amendments, con
fining the effects of each charge to that degree of real guilt, which
he thought appeared in it. X 2

o

08 CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. [April 2.

Mr. Fox observed, that when he had the pleasure of seeing
those gentlemen whose principles so often militated against
his own, seriously adopting the sentiments which he enter
tained upon a great and important question, no man was more
willing to bend to their wishes as to the mode of best carrying
those sentiments into effect. It was therefore with great con
cern that he felt it impossible for him to agree with the right
honourable gentleman in the proposition which he had just
stated : but he really could not do so without betraying, as he
conceived, the great business in hand, and weakening even to
the dangerous risk of losing it ultimately, the great question
naturally consequent on all the investigations of the committee
they had just come out of, namely, That Warren Hastings,
esq. be impeached. That question w;as, he thought, the next
and immediate step to be taken by the House, after agreeing
(if they should agree) to the report then on the table, and
they would in that case follow it up by sending word to the
House of Lords, that the House of Commons had resolved
to impeach Mr. Hastings, and declaring that they were pre
paring articles, and would present them with all convenient
dispatch, reserving to themselves the constitutional right of
supplying more articles, after they had gone through the
whole, whether they should have occasion at all to exercise
that right or not. Mr. Fox enlarged on the necessity of this
mode of proceeding, comparing it with the other mode pro
posed by the chancellor of the exchequer, and contending
that it was the true constitutional mode, and the best, of car
rying the views of the great majority of the House into com
plete execution. If the House proceeded in the manner
which he conceived to be the proper, and, indeed, the only
proper mode of proceeding, they would, by coming imme
diately to the great question, afford those gentlemen who
meant to urge the argument of a set-off, a full opportunity of
putting their favourite reasoning to the test; they would give
every gentleman an equal degree of indulgence, and the mat
ter, as to the question of impeachment, would rest on its true
merits, the sense of the --majority, grounded on the votes of
the committee, and then the House would decide upon the
great question fairly ; and, having once decided upon it, they
would run no risk of losing it in any subsequent stage, by en
tertaining altered opinions under the influence of reasoning
on the particular form and shape of different articles of the
impeachment, or, what was still more to be dreaded, and
guarded against in a proceeding of that kind, by the influence
of improper interference, to which the other mode of pro
ceeding was particularly obnoxious. That mode was also
liable to other objections. If the House went, into a com-

I787O CHARGES AGAINST MR. HASTINGS. 309
mittee in order to draw the articles of impeachment before-
they had resolved to impeach, they would set their committee
an idle, and, possibly in the end, a fruitless task ; for, having
ultimately to look at the question in a new light, and to de
cide upon the impressions of all the criticisms and sentiments
of different gentlemen, the great question would prove very
much weakened, and would be decided upon under circum
stances much more unfavourable to it than at present. Per
haps there might be precedents for the mode of proceeding
recommended by the right honourable gentleman. Indeed,
so many were on the journals, and those so various and con
tradictory, that there was scarcely any mode of proceeding,
however absurd and however unconstitutional, for which a
precedent might not be quoted ; but he much doubted whe
ther any precedent would bear out the proposition just made.
He had examined a great variety, and the nearest which he
could find was that of Lord Danby, but it did not exactly
meet the present case. Mr. Fox recited at large the particu
lars of the case of Lord Danby 's impeachment; and after
stating them circumstantially, pointed out the different modes
of proceeding which had prevailed afterwards, as well as those,
in times more modern, mentioning the impeachments of Lord
Bolingbroke, Lord Orford, &c. &c. and afterwards Lord Ox
ford and Sir Robert Walpole, coming at length to the case
of Lord Macclesfield, where the whole had originated in a
message from the crown, upon examining the papers laid on
the table, by which the House had immediately resolved to
impeach, and had sent a message to the Lords to that effect.
After enlarging upon these particulars, Mr. Fox returned to
his former argument, and observed, that the mode which he
had taken the liberty to recommend, he was convinced was
the shortest, the best, the most likely to secure the end, and
that which he could not conceive any gentleman, who meant
to act fairly and sincerely in this business, or any other of the
same- kind which might occur in future, and who did not
mean some fallacy, or by some trick to abandon it, could ob
ject to. In saying this, he begged not to be understood as
designing to insinuate that any such fallacy was intended in
the present instance, much less that the right honourable gen
tleman was not himself as sincerely desirous of sending the
matter to the House of Lords as he was. He had not the
smallest doubt but that he was equally serious on the occa
sion; but he wished to guard against establishing a precedent
which might by bad men be abused in future times. He
could not, therefore, but express his surprise that the right
honourable gentleman should wish to pursue a different
mode, and the more especially as he saw no reason why the

310 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF [March 28.
amendments at which he hinted need be at all supposed an
argument against the general question. Excepting only in
the charge against contracts, had the right honourable gen
tleman made any distinction so strong as to prevent his gene
rally voting with the resolution moved upon each of the charges
carried. If, therefore, he had not objected, notwithstanding
the various distinctions and differences which he had taken
upon several of the charges, to vote that most of them con
tained matter of impeachment, why could he not consent to
impeach, and in framing the specific articles, take the sense
of the committee upon each of his wished-for amendments?
Mr. Fox added, that if he appeared to deliver his sentiments
with some emotion upon the present occasion, he could de
clare that it was a natural warmth rather arising from his con
sciousness of the importance of the business, and his sense of
the deep degree in which the honour, the dignity, and the
character of the House and of the nation, were involved,
than from any spark of passion or intemperance of feeling.
He had merely delivered his individual sentiments, indepen
dent of parly or connection. They might possibly not be
supported; but as he really thought he could not, without
betraying the cause, countenance any other mode of proceed
ing, so he could not lend himself to its support ; and if a ques
tion were put on the mode proposed by the right honourable
gentleman, he should be obliged to vote against it.
The report was ordered to be taken into further consideration
on the following day ; when the resolutions of the committee were
agreed to, and Mr. Burke moved that they should be referred to a
committee to prepare articles of impeachment upon the same, and
that the committee consist of the following persons : Mr. Burke,
Mr. Fox, Mr. Sheridan, Sir James Erskine, Mr. Thomas Pelham,
Mr. Windham, Mr. Francis, Mr. St. John, Mr. Anstruther, Mr.
Adam, Mr. M. A. Taylor, Mr. Welbof e Ellis, Mr. Frederick Mon
tague, Sir Grey Cooper, Sir Gilbert Eliot, Mr. Dudley Long,
Lord Maitland, Mr. North, General Burgoyne, and Mr. Grey.

Mr. Beaufoy's Motion for the Repeal of the Test
and Corporation Acts.
March 28.
r> TURING this session a subject was introduced into the House
' of Commons, which became repeatedly the object of its con
sideration in succeeding sessions ; this was a proposition for the

1787-] THE TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. 3 I I
repeal of the corporation and test acts, as far as related to the pro-
testant dissenters, who flattered themselves that their recent sup
port of the minister of the crown would induce him to lend a
favourable ear to their application. Delegates were appointed to
arrange and conduct their plans, who did not directly petition par
liament, but first published and dispersed the following paper,
which they called " The Case of the Protestant Dissenters, with
Reference to the Test and Corporation Acts :
" In the year 1672, the 25th of the reign of King Charles II.
an act was passed, entitled, ' An act for preventing dangers which
may happen from popish recusants :' by which it is enacted, ' That
all and every person or persons, that shall be admitted, entered,
-placed, or taken into, any office or offices, civil or military, or shall
receive any pay, salary, fee, or wages, by reason of an}' patent or
grant of his majesty, or shall have command or place of trust from
or under his majesty, his heirs or successors, or by his or their
authority, or by authority derived from him or them, within this
realm of England, dominion of Wales, or town of Berwick-upon-
Tweed or in his majesty's navy, or in the several islands of Jersey
and Guernsey, or that shall be admitted into any service or em
ployment in his majesty's household or family, — shall receive the
sacrament of the Lord's Supper, according to the usage of the
church of England, within three months after his or their admit
tance in, or receiving their said authority and employment, in
some public church, upon some Lord's day, commonly called Sun
day, immediately after divine service.
" The circumstances of the time, when this bill passed, were
very remarkable. Papists were indulged in their religion, and
many of them were employed in the great offices of state. The
king himself was suspected of popery, and the Duke of York, his
presumptive heir, had openly declared himself of that religion.
This bill was introduced in direct opposition to the court ; the pe
nal laws having been suspended, contrary to acts of parliament,
by the royal proclamation, chiefly in favour of papists, at the very
time when a war was begun to destroy the only protestant state
by which England could expect to be supported in the defence of
her religion and liberties. On these accounts, the minds of all
zealous protestants were in the utmost fear and consternation ;
and, accordingly, the design of the act was, as the preamble de
clares, ' to quiet the minds of his majesty's good subjects, by pre
venting dangers which might happen from popish recusants.'
" The protestant dissenters apprehend, therefore, that this act,
as the title sets forth, was made wholly against papists, and not to
prevent any danger which could happen to, the nation or church
from the dissenters. Indeed, so far were the protestant noncon
formists from being aimed at in this act, that, in their zeal to rescue
the nation from the dangers which were at that time apprehended
from popish recusants, they contributed to the passing of the bill ;
willingly subjecting themselves to the disabilities created by it
rather than obstruct what was deemed so necessary to the com
mon welfare. Alderman Love, a member of the House of Com
mons, and a known dissenter, publicly desired, that nothing with
x 4

312 .MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF [March 28.
relation to tru.n might intervene to stop the security which the
nation and protectant religion might derive from the te-: act, and
declared that in this he was seconded by the greater part of the
nonconformists. This conduct was so acceptable to parliament,
that, in the very session in which the test act passed, arid while
that act was depending, a bill was brought into the House of Com
mons, entitled, ' A bill for the ease of protestant dissenters.'
This bill, having passed through the different stag-es of that House,
was carried up to the House of Lords, where likewise it passed,
with some amendments. These amendments having given occa
sion to a conference between the two Houses, King Charles II.,
from an apprehension that the measure would prove injurious to
tlii popish interest, on the 29th of March, 1673, adjourned the
parliament to the 2;th of October following. In the next session,
an attempt was made, in the House of Commons, to discriminate
the dissenters from the papists, with regard to their qualifications
for public offices, by bringing in a bill for a general test, to distin
guish protestants from papists ; which bill, having been read a
second time, and referred to a committee, was laid aside without
being reported.
" The late reverend and learned Dr. Burnet, Bishop of Salis
bury, in a speech in the House of Lords, in the year 1703.. took
particular notice of the conduct of the dissenters, with regard to
the test-act ; and justly concluded, that, as the act was obtained
in some measure by their concurrence, it would be hard to turn it
against them.
" Though King William III., of glorious memory, had refused,
when Prince of Orange, to give his approbation to the repeal of
the test-act and other penal laws against papists, knowing that the
measure was countenanced by King James H. with the sole view
of introducing Roman catholics into public office;, and that it
would have been at that time dangerous to the protestant religion
and the liberties of the people; yet, when he was raised to the
throne of these kingdoms, and no danger could be jastly appre
hended, he told his first parhament, in one of his speeches, ' that
he hoped they would leave room for the admission of all protes
tants who were willing and able to serve him ; and that such a
conjunction in his service would tend to the better uniting them
among themselves, and strengthening them against their common
adversaries.' Accordingly, when the bill was brought in for abro
gating the oaths of allegiance, &c. to King James II. a clause was
ordered to be added for taking away the necessity of receiving the
sacrament as a qualification for civil offices. " This clause the
House of Lords rejected, contrary to the sentiments of many noble
peers, the stedfast friends of their country, and distinguished
promoters of the revolution; who declared, in their protest, ' That
a greater caution ought not to be required, from such as are ad
mitted into offices, than from the members of the two Houses of
parliament, who are not obliged to receive the sacrament to enable
them to sit in either House.'
" TEe test-act is not the only statute by which the civil rights
of the dissenters are abridged. In the year 1661, the 13th of

1 7^7* J THE TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. 313
Charles II., the year after the Restoration, an act was passed, en
titled, ' An act for the well-governing and regulating of corpora
tions :' by which it is provided, ' That no person or persons, shall
for ever hereafter be placed, elected, or chosen in, or to, any cor
poration-offices, that shall not have,' within one year before such
election or choice, taken the sacrament of the Lord's Supper ac
cording to the rites of the church of England.' This act, which
was passed in a period of great heat and violence, was probably
designed against some of the protestant dissenters : ' For,' as a
noble lord * expresses himself, ' in those times, when a spirit of in
tolerance prevailed, and severe measures were pursued, the dis
senters were reputed and treated as persons ill-affected and dan
gerous to government.' But both Houses of parliament in a short
time entertained different sentiments of them ; and, before the end
of that reign, discovered an inclination to relieve them from the
disabilities created both by the corporation and test-acts.
" On the 24th of December, in the year 1680, a bill was ordered
into the House of Commons, for repealing the corporation-act.
On the 6th of January following, this bill was read a second time,
and referred to a committee. While this bill was depending in
the House of Commons, a bill came down from the Lords, enti
tled, ' An act for distinguishing protestant dissenters from popish
recusants.' It doth not appear that there was any division on
either of these bills, but they were defeated by the sudden proro
gation of the parliament on the ioth of January. The Commons,
being apprized of the king's intention, had only time to pass some
votes on the state of the nation, one of which is in these words ;
' That it is the opinion of this House, that the prosecution of pro
testant dissenters, upon the penal laws, is, at this time, grievous
to the subject, a weakening of the protestant interest, an encou
ragement to popery, and dangerous to the peace of the kingdom.'
" Such public testimonies, in parliament, in favour of the pro
testant dissenters, they cannot but consider as affording a full
evidence of their zeal and concern for the protestant religion and
the liberties of these kingdoms, and of their being hearty and sin
cere friends to the public peace, both in church and state. They
therefore humbly hope for the repeal of the said acts for the fol
lowing reasons :
1 . " Every man, as it is now universally acknowledged, has an
undoubted right to judge for himself in matters of religion ; nor
ought his exercise of this right to be branded with a mark of
infamy. 2. " The holy sacrament of the Lord's supper, being a matter
purely of a religious nature, and being appointed by our blessed
Saviour only for the remembrance of his death, ought not to be
applied to the secular ends of civil societies.
3. '¦" As dissenters are universally acknowledged to be well-
affected to his majesty and the established government, and are
ready to take the oaths required by law, and to give the fullest
proof of their loyalty, they think it hard that their scruple to re-
* See Lord Mansfield's speech in the House of Lords, February 4, 1767.
New Pari. Hist. vol. xvi. p. 316.

314 MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF [March 28.
ceive the sacrament after the manner of the church of England,
or after the manner of any church, as a qualification for an office,
should render them incapable of holding public employments, civil
or military.
4. " The occasional receiving of the Lord's supper, as a qua
lification for a place, cannot, in the nature of things, imply, that
those who thus receive it mean to declare their full and entire
approbation of the whole constitution and frame of the established
church ; since men may be compelled by their necessities, or al
lured by secular advantages, to do what they would not do, were
they left to their free choice. As, from these motives, persons
may be induced to conform to the established church in this par
ticular instance, though they do not approve of its forms and ce
remonies in general ; so, from the same motives, others may com
ply with the sacramental test who are not even christians, and
who therefore cannot be supposed to wish well to Christianity itself,
or to any national establishment of it whatsoever. Hence it is
apparent, that such a test can be no real or effectual security to
the church of England. It is also apprehended, that, independently
of any remarks upon the doctrine of papal dispensations, the sa
cramental test complained of may be received by many papists,
because many of them hold the church of England to be no
church, her ministers noministers, and her sacraments nosacraments.
5. " The oaths of allegiance and supremacy, and the declaration
against transubstantiation, have, without the sacramental test,
been found effectual, for more than a century, to exclude papists
from both Houses of parliament.
6. " The repeal of the test and corporation-acts, while it would
be a relief to many of his majesty's faithful subjects, would lay no
difficulty or hardship on any others of them. It would no way
affect the established church. Religion, and the national church,
were established before these acts were passed, and would conti
nue to be established were they repealed. The doctrine, the disci
pline, and privileges of the church, would remain exactly the same
as they are at present. Its constitution and its form of govern
ment are not secured by these acts ; nor would they be injured by
the total repeal of them. On the contrary, every serious clergy
man would find, in such repeal, ease to his conscience, and safety
from vexatious prosecutions ; for the service of the church of
England, in its notice respecting the celebration of the commu
nion, forbids blasphemers of God, slanderers of his word, adul
terers, &c. to come to the holy table ; and yet the minister, as the
law now stands, must admit all such persons to the sacrament when
they demand it as a qualification for an office, or subject himself
to a prosecution.
7. " No other instance can be produced, among all the reformed
churches, in which the sacrament is ever applied as a qualification
for civil employments and advantages.
8. " The episcopalians in North Britain, who are the dissenters
from the church established in that part of the united kingdom,
are not liable to any incapacities in consequence of their not qua
lifying themselves by receiving the sacrament according to the
usage of the church of Scotland ; but are capable of all the ad-

1787-] THE TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. 3 15
vantages of the civil government by taking the oaths, &c. as ap
pointed by law. Whence it follows, that it is not reasonable or
just, that such of the members of the established church of North
Britain as are resident in England, should be subject to the un
gracious alternative, of acting inconsistently with their principles,
or of incurring the penalty of disqualification for the service of
their sovereign, in any office, civil or military.
9. " In the year 1779, the 19th of his present majesty, an act
was passed, in Ireland, ' For the relief of his majesty's faithful sub
jects, the protestant dissenters of that kingdom ;' whereby it is
enacted, ' That all and every person and persons, being protes-
tants, shall and may have, hold, and enjoy, any office or place, civil
or military, and receive any pay, salary, fee, or wages, belong
ing to, or by reason of, such office or place, notwithstanding he
shall not receive or have received the sacrament of the Lord's sup
per, — without incurring any penalties — for or in respect of his
neglect of receiving the same.' The protestant dissenters of
England, therefore, humbly hope, from the moderation and equity
of the legislature, for the same just restitution of their civil rights,
to which alone their application is confined .
" For these reasons the dissenters are induced to make an appli
cation to parliament for relief, humbly apprehending that their re
quest will appear to be founded in justice, and that a compliance with
it will redound to the honour of religion, will tend to the security
and strength of the protestant interest, be conducive to the welfare
of the nation, honourable to the king as the common father of his
people, and no way injurious to any one subject in his majesty's
dominions. Arguments, so weighty and cogent as those which
have been represented, cannot, they trust, fail, in conjunction with
the enlarged and liberal spirit of the times, to procure from the
legislature the repeal of statutes, which can in no degree be ,
considered as grounded on public necessity or public advantage."
On the 28th of March, Mr. Beaufoy opened the business to the
House in a long and able speech, and concluded, " That this
House will immediately resolve itself into a committee of the whole
House, to consider of so much of the acts of the 13th and 2jth of
Charles the second, as requires persons, before they are admitted
into any office or place in corporations, or having accepted any
office, civil or military, or any place of trust under the crown, to re
ceive the sacrament of the Lord's supper, according to the rites
of the church of England." Mr. Beaufoy was answered by Lord
North, who had lately had the misfortune of losing his eyesight,
and came down upon this occasion, for the first time in the session.
Mr. Pitt followed Lord North, and took the same side of the
question. Mr. Fox, in a long and able speech, supported the motion
for a committee. He observed, that however he might of late
have been charged with the odium of coalition, that odium
was not imputable to him that night; yet, if he had heard
only one part of the argument of the right honourable the

3 IfJ MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF [March 28.
chancellor of the exchequer, unexplained by the other parts
of his argument, he should have found himself in a coalition
with him upon the grounds of that argument, namely, that it
was right to oppose the repeal of a test, which shut out dis
senters who would not allow that any establishment was ne
cessary ; but the right honourable gentleman had afterwards
carried his arguments against all those who had applied indis
criminately. Mr. Fox then asserted, that the general con
duct of the dissenters was praise-worthy, and that in all for
mer times they had been actuated by principles of liberty not
inconsistent with the well-being of the state. He then ad
verted to the argument of the right honourable the chancellor
of the exchequer respecting the test, and endeavoured to shew,
that religion was not a proper test for a political institution.
With regard to the argument used by the right honourable
gentleman to prove that those acts operated to exclude per
sons from corporations, though not from sitting in that House,
he should contend that they had not that effect ; that there
were corporations which were entirely filled by dissenters, and
that he knew of two such corporations. The mischiefs in
Charles the second's reign arose not from the dissenters, but
from the governing part of the church of England. He said,
he was supported in this assertion by the authority of a great
writer, Mr. Locke. The opinions of the heads of the church
of England were not to be a rule for the political conduct of
that House ; for they were as decidedly against passing the
bills which that House passed six or seven years ago in favour
of the dissenters, as they were upon the present occasion. In
deciding upon questions of that nature the electors of the re
presentatives of the universities were likely to be warped more
strongly than the electors of other representatives of that
House : this was to be lamented ; but he did not mean to cast
any reflections upon the motives of their conduct. The church
of Scotland had not found a test necessary there for the epis
copalians. The right honourable gentleman had stated, that
by this repeal the 'dissenters would not be obliged to contribute
to the provision of the members of the church of England ; it
was absurd to argue that as a consequence ; it did not follow :
this motion went only to take off the seclusion of offices. Mr.
Fox dwelt some time upon this point. He then asserted, that
the argument that there must be one establishment was absurd ;
two establishments might exist in one government; they ac
tually did exist, and he instanced the church of England and
the kirk of Scotland. He confessed that the test-act did not
operate directly as a stigma upon the dissenters ; but at least
it carried, and it was a fair argument to say, that the dissenters

I787O THE TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. 317
would be glad to be excused paying to the maintenance of
the church.
Mr. Fox then said, What are you doing to secure the es
tablishment of this constitution ? You are taking religion as
religion for a test in politics. He then combated the pro
priety of such a measure. Wijh respect to clergymen giving
or refusing the sacrament, he observed, that if the clergyman
of the' parish refused, he subjected himself to an action ; and
supposing that he found means to get through the inconveni
ences of the litigation, what was the consequence ? Why, that
having refused the man the sacrament, he had disabled
him from being qualified to hold the office ; for the man could
not take the sacrament from another clergyman, and thus
there was vested in the minister of a parish a power superior
to that of any ecclesiastical court.
Mr. Fox then spoke of the principles which had governed
the dissenters in this kingdom, and said, they were persevering
and active in their application for redress of their injuries in
former times; and if they used the same perseverance now,
they could not fail of success ; that he would advise them to
repeat their applications till the legislature gave them that spe
cimen they desired. He had considered himself honoured in
acting with them upon many occasions; and if he thought
there was any time in which they had departed from those
principles which were inconsistent with the constitution of this
country, he should 'refer that period to a very recent date in
deed : on recollection of what had been their conduct upon
that occasion, the House would at least do him the justice to
say, that in supporting them that day he was not influenced by
any very obvious motives of private partiality or attachment.
Yet he was determined to let them know, that though they
could upon some occasions lose sight of their principles of li
berty, he would not upon any occasion lose sight of his princi
ples of toleration; he should therefore give his vote for the
motion; but at the same time observe, that if there could be
any modification of the penalties without repealing much of
the act, it might be matter of instruction to the committee,
and perhaps would prove more palatable to the House; yet,
as the matter stood at present, the right honourable the chan
cellor of the exchequer by opposing the motion might be said,
though disclaiming persecution in words, to admit the whole
extent of it in principle.
The House divided on Mr. Beaufoy 's motion :
Tellers. Tellers. >
« ("Mr. Beaufoy 1 0 XT f Sir W. Dolben ) ,
YEAStMr.Plumer \f  NoES JMr. Young } ^
So it passed in the negative.

3 1 8 mr. fox's motion for the [April 24.

Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax.
April 24.
THE tax imposed upon retail shopkeepers in the year 1785, was
strongly opposed at the time by the inhabitants of London and
Westminster, as partial and unjust in its principle, and peculiarly
oppressive in its operation upon those two cities. The following
year their members were instructed to move for its repeal ; and
though the motion was rejected by a great majority, they con
tinued, with unremitted perseverance, to take the most active and
vigorous measures for securing success upon some future occasion.
Meetings were held, associations formed, committees appointed,
and a correspondence carried on with all the considerable towns
and corporations of the kingdom ; many of which, being propor-
tionably sufferers, readily joined the capital in another application
to parliament for relief. The business was this year committed to
Mr. Fox. Accordingly, this day in pursuance of the notice he
had given previous to the recess,
Mr. Fox rose, in order to make his motion for the repeal
of the shop tax. He began a most ingenious and striking ar
gument against the tax, by stating, that he had never been
forward in opposing taxes, because he thought it the duty in
general of members of parliament to support government in
the arduous and invidious measures of finance ; but at the same
time that he entertained the opinion, he thought it equally im
politic to adhere to it in the extreme degree, and on no occa
sion whatever, even though a tax should appear, after experi
ment and fair trial, partial and oppressive, to consent to its
repeal. Under this impression it was, and upon a full convic
tion that the shop tax was a personal tax, unjustly levied from
a particular description of men, that he should move for its
repeal. The shop tax he had ever heard stated by those who
defended it, to be a tax not upon the shopkeeper, but the
consumer of goods sold by the shopkeeper. That he had
ever peremptorily denied, and experience had proved beyond
all possibility of doubt, that he was right in the denial.
Mr. Fox proceeded to urge all the arguments which he
had formerly brought forward, to prove that the tax was not
in fact, what it was called, but an additional tax upon house
keepers whose houses had shops annexed to them. He mani
fested the particularly unjust way in which the tax pressed
upon the metropolis and its environs, by stating, that the
whole sum assessed for the shop tax amounted to 59,000/.

1787.] repeal of the shop tax. 319
seventeen of which were assessed for the city of Westminster
alone, twelve for the city of London, and twelve more for the
villages adjacent ; so that the countv of Middlesex paid forty-
one parts out of the fifty-nine of the produce of the tax.
Mr. Fox reasoned upon this statement, and declared that he
could scarcely have imagined, considering the superior opu
lence of the city of London, compared to the city of West
minster, that the latter should have paid seventeen parts of the
produce of the tax, while the former only paid twelve parts ;
nor could he, at first, believe that the villages in Middlesex
paid another twelve, till upon inquiry he found, that under
the head of villages were comprehended Marybone, High
Holborn, Wapping, the out-parishes, and those non-descript
districts which, though accurately speaking, they were not parts
of the three cities, if he might so denominate London, West
minster, and their environs, were generally considered as parts
of the metropolis. He compared this with the proportion
paid by the rest of the kingdom, and said, that though he
could not be of opinion with those who thought that the re
presentation of London, Westminster, and Middlesex should
be exactly in the proportion of their payment of the taxes, yet
that forty-one parts out of fifty-nine was so monstrous a dis
proportion, that every man who barely heard it stated, must
be startled at it, and must feel conviction that the tax was most
partial and unjust in its operation and pressure.
Mr. Fox declared, that upon an examination of the assess
ment throughout the kingdom it would be discovered, that an
hundred pounds was all that was assessed for some whole
counties, and not above fifty for others. The partiality of
the tax, therefore, was so palpable, that he could not see how
the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer could re
sist the application for its repeal with any colour of reason or
of candour. He contended, that the favourite argument of
the competition of shopkeepers, which had formerly been re
sorted to as a proof, that they would lay the tax on their cus
tomers, was of itself a proof that the consumer did not pay it,
and consequently a confirmation of the argument, that it fell
totally on the shopkeeper. He instanced, in a variety of ways,
the hardship of thus singling out one description of persons
to pay a tax that the rest of the subjects were exempted from,
and forcibly argued the injustice of that House insisting upon
continuing a tax, to which they did not contribute one single
shilling. Unless the bankers were selected, members of par
liament could not be said to pay any thing towards it ; and if
bankers were assessed, what became of the argument of the
consumers paying the tax ? For surely it would not be pre
tended that bankers could lay any part of the tax'on their

320 mr. fox's motion for the [April 24.
customers. He shewed, that so far from shops being an ad
vantage to the houses to which they belonged, in many in
stances they produced an opposite effect. He mentioned
those houses with shops, which on account of their situation
were let at high rents, and the shopkeepers of which hoped to
assist themselves by letting lodgings. Every gentleman must
be aware, that lodgings in houses without shops were deemed
preferable to lodgings in houses with shops. In that particu
lar, therefore, and in a variety of others, houses with shops
were less proper to be loaded with an additional house tax
than other houses.
He contended that it was ridiculous to persist in saying
that the consumer paid the tax, when the shopkeepers knew
and declared, and were ready to declare on oath, that they
paid it themselves. If the shopkeepers came again to the bar,
and said, " we pay the tax, and as it affects us solely, we beg to
be relieved from it ;" would that House say, " no, you do not
pay the tax, we pay it, though you do not know it, and we
choose to continue to pay it ?" He dwelt on the absurdity of
such a mode of reasoning, and said, it would be much better
to give up the tax, and adopt some other less objectionable,
and less objected against. Speaking of the assessments, he
said they were proofs of the strenuous means resorted to, in
order to force the tax to become efficient, and were in many
instances capricious and extravagant. Mr. Fox instanced
Mr. Wells, the ship-builder's yard, and that of a wholesale
block-maker for shipping, which were assessed as retail shops,
because some of the workmen occasionally' sold a few of the
chips ; and also Greenland dock, because part of the sediment
and skum was sometimes disposed of.
After urging a great variety of arguments, Mr. Fox said,
that though he knew the house tax to be a very bad mode of
taxation, yet if it was thought right to lay an additional tax
on houses, he would recommend a general additional tax, as
a more equitable measure at least than the shop tax. He
concluded a very able and animated speech, with moving for
leave to bring in a bill to repeal the act imposing certain du
ties on shops.
The motion was seconded by Mr. Lambton, a young member,
who had just taken his seat for the city of Durham, and who de
clared that he rejoiced in the opportunity of opening his lips, for
the first time within those walls, with a remonstrance against a par
tial, oppressive, and unjust measure. Mr. Fox was also supported
by Sir Gegory Page Turner, Sir Benjamin Hammet, Mr. Main-
waring, Aldermen Sawbridge, Newnham, Watson, and Le Me-
surier, Sir Watkin Lewes, and Mr. Henry Thornton. The mo
tion was strenuously opposed by Mr. Pitt. Sir James Johnstone

1787.] the prince of wales's debts. 321
said, he had been a voter for the shop tax, on account of the legal
murder of the hawkers and pedlars which it had occasioned.
Mr. Fox rose, not, he said, to speak upon a question to
which he had already spoken so fully, but merely to notice
what had fallen from the honourable baronet, relative to
what the honourable baronet had called the " legal murder of
the hawkers and pedlars." That expression, Mr. Fox said,
had reminded him of a matter which he meant to have taken
notice of in his first speech, but it had accidentally escaped
him. The idea of abolishing hawkers and pedlars had ori
ginally been held out as the boon or douceur to the shop
keepers, to induce them to submit the more readily to the
payment of the shop-tax, but, as gentlemen might recollect,
the idea was afterwards departed from and given up, and only
a slight regulation respecting hawkers and pedlars had taken
place. Had they, however, been abolished entirely, the cir
cumstance could not have proved beneficial to the shopkeepers
of London and Westminster ; it was therefore extremely un
fair to urge the operation of the measure taken respecting
hawkers and pedlars as an argument against the shopkeepers.
Upon a division there appeared,
Tellers. Tellers.
xr S Mr. Aid. Sawbridge 1 XT f Mr. Rouse 7 0
YeAS [Mr.Ald.Newnham}I47--N0ES |Mr> Rose \ ^5-
So it passed in the negative.

The Prince of Wales's Debts.
April 30.
O* Nthe20thof April, a subject was brought forward in the House
of Commons by Mr. Alderman Newnham, which had for some
time before strongly engaged the attention and feelings of the pub
lic ; namely, the embarrassed state of the finances of the Prince
of Wales. The establishment of his royal highness's household
took place upon his coming of age, in the year 1783, during the
administration of the Duke of Portland. It is well known that a
great difference of opinion subsisted at that time between the great
personage, with whom the final settlement of the affair rested, and
the persons, whose duty it was to give him their advice Upon the
subject, respecting the sum to be allowed for that purpose. Upon
VOL. III. Y

322 THE PRINCE OF WALEb's DEBTS. [April 3 O.
a full consideration of what was thought becoming the credit of
the nation and the exalted rank of the heir apparent to the throne,
the great increase in the value of every article of expenditure, and
the oeconomy of such a liberal provision as might totally supersede
the necessity of incurring debt, the ministers of that day are said
to have proposed, that an annual income should be settled upon
him by parliament of ioo,oool. This proposition is said to have
been not only entirely disapproved of by the king, but rejected
with expressions of such marked resentment, as to make the im
mediate resignation of those ministers more than probable. In
this emergency the Prince of Wales, who had early manifested a
favourable opinion of that party, interposed, and signified his de
sire, that the whole business should be left to the king. He de
clared his readiness to accept of whatever provision the king in his
wisdom and goodness might think most fit ; and, at the same time,
expressed his earnest wishes, that no misunderstanding should
arise between the king and his then ministers, on account of any
arrangement, in which his personal interest only was concerned.
In consequence of this interference the affair appears to have been
accommodated, and an allowance of 50,000!. a year, payable out
of the civil list revenue, was settled upon his royal highness.
A very few years experience made it but too manifest, that this
provision was inadequate to the purpose for which it was designed.
In 1786 the prince was found to have contracted a debt to
the amount of about ioo,oool. exclusive of jo,oool. and upwards
expended on Carlton-house. He was no sooner acquainted
with the embarrassed state of his affairs, and the great dis
tress, in which it necessarily involved a considerable number
of his creditors, than he came to a resolution of taking some
effectual measures for their relief. His first application was to
the king his father, upon whose affection alone he wished to
rely, and to whose judgment he declared his readiness to submit
his past and to conform his future conduct.. By his majesty's di
rections, a full account of the prince's affairs were laid before him ;
but (whether it was from any dissatisfaction with those accounts,
or with any other parts of the prince's conduct, or from some other
caase, has not franspired) a direct refusal to afford him any relief
was conveyed to his royal highness through one of his principal
officers of state. In consequence of this refusal, the Prince of
Wales appears to have conceived himself bound in honour and jus
tice to have recourse to the only expedient that was now left him.
His determination was prompt and manly. The day after he re
ceived the message from the king, he dismissed the officers of his
court, and reduced the establishment of his household to that of a,
private gentleman ; he ordered his horses to be sold, the works at
Carlton-house to be stopped, and such parts, as were not neces
sary for his personal use, to be shut up- From these savings an
annual sum of 40,000!. was set apart, and vested in the hands of
trustees, for the payment of his debts.
It was in these circumstances of private distress and public spi
rit, that the expedient was suggested to his royal highness by se
veral respectable members -of the House of Commons, of appealing

1787O THE PRINCE OF WALES'S DEBTS. 323
to the justice and generosity of the nation in parliament. To this
measure the prince appears to have assented, not more from a na
tural wish to free himself from his pecuniary embarrassments, than
from a desire to do away any bad impression, that the misfortune
of having incurred the royal displeasure, and the consequent re
fusal of affording him any relief, might have left upon the minds of
the public. Accordingly, on the day already mentioned, Mr. Al
derman Newnham demanded, in his place, of the chancellor of the
exchequer, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers
to bring forward any proposition for rescuing the Prince of Wales
from his present embarrassed and\ distressed situation ? For though
his conduct, under the difficulties with which he laboured, reflected
the highest honour upon his character, yet he thought it would
bring indelible disgrace upon the nation, if he were suffered to re
main any longer in his present reduced circumstances. To this
question Mr. Pitt replied, that it was not his duty to bring forward
a subject of the nature that had been mentioned, except by the
command of his majesty. It was not necessary therefore that he
should say more, in answer to the question put to him, than that
he had not been honoured with such a command. Upon this Mr.
Newnham gave notice of his intention to bring the subject regu
larly by a motion before the House on the 4th day of May.
In the mean time the friends of the Prince of Wales were inde
fatigable in their endeavours to procure the support of the inde
pendent members of parliament to the proposed motion ; and at
several meetings which were held for that purpose, their numbers
were so considerable as to give cause of serious alarm to the mi
nister. On the 24th of April, Mr. Pitt, after requesting that Mr.
Newnham would inform the House more particularly of the nature
of the motion he intended to make, adverted to the extreme deli
cacy of the subject; and declared, that the knowledge he pos
sessed of many circumstances relating to it, made him extremely
anxious to persuade the House, if possible, to prevent the discus
sion of it. Should, however, the honourable member persist in
his determination to bring it forward, it would be absolutely ne
cessary to lay those circumstances before the public ; and however
distressing it might prove to him as an individual, from the pro
found respect he had for every part of the royal family, he should
discharge his duty to the public, and enter fully into the subject.
iit the same time Mr. Rolle, an adherent of the minister, who
distinguished himself greatly by his zeal upon this occasion, de
clared, that the question involved matter, by which the constitu- .
tion, both in church and state, might be essentially affected ; and
that if the friends of the Prince of Wales persisted in their attempt,
it would be necessary to enquire into those circumstances also.
What the circumstances so solemnly adverted to by Mr. Pitt in this
conversation were, the House was left, for the present, to conjec
ture. The menace thrown out by Mr. Rolle was well known to
allude to the connection between the prince and Mrs.Fitzherbert, a
lady of a very respectable Roman catholic family, to whom he had
for some time manifested a strong attachment. For, notwithstand
ing the possibility of a marriage between those two parties was ef-

324 THE PRINCE OF WALES'S DEETS. [April 3O.
fectually guarded against by the royal marriage act, great pains
had been taken, and not entirely without success, to mislead the
ignorant, and to inflame the minds of the vulgar upon that subject.
On the 27th of the same month Mr. Newnham, in compliance
with the request that had been made, signified to the House, that
the motion he intended to make would be to the following effect :
" That an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying
him to take into his royal consideration the present embarrassed
state of the affairs of the Prince of Wales, and to grant him such
relief as he in his royal wisdom should think fit, and that the House
would make good the same." Several members on both sides of
the House having risen to deprecate the further discussion of this
business, and to express their earnest wishes, that it might be ac
commodated in some other manner, Mr. Sheridan got up to de
clare, that the insinuations and menaces, which had been thrown
out upon a former occasion, made it impossible for the prince to
recede with honour. He said he had the highest authority to de
clare, that his royal highness had no other wish, than that every
circumstance in the whole series of his conduct should be most
minutely and accurately inquired into ; that no part of his conduct,
circumstances, or situation, should be treated with ambiguity, con
cealment, or affected tenderness, but that whatever related to him
should be discussed openly, and with fair, manly, and direct exa
mination ; and that he was ready, as a peer of Great Britain, to
give in another place the most direct answers to any questions that
might be put to him. Mr. Rolle observed, in reply, that he had
acted and should act as it became an independent country gentle
man to do, when the dearest interests of the nation were at stake,
from the conviction of his own mind ; and that if the motion pro
posed was persisted in, he should state without reserve his senti
ments upon the subject he had alluded to, according as the matter
struck him. Mr. Pitt declared, that he had been greatly misun
derstood, if it was conceived that he meant to throw out any
insinuations injurious to the character of the Prince of Wales. The
particulars, to which he alluded, and which he might find it neces
sary to state fully to the House, related only to his pecuniary af
fairs, and to a correspondence that had taken place on that subject,
and which he thought would satisfy the House of the impropriety
of complying with the proposed motion.
On the 30th, Mr. Newnham rose again to make a few observa
tions upon what had passed on the Friday preceding. He remarked,
that much had been said of the tenderness of the ground upon
which he trod, and of the dangerous consequences that might arise
from his perseverance. He declared himself totally ignorant of
the grounds of those apprehensions, with which others were so un
accountably filled. If there was danger in the measure, let those
who gave occasion to it tremble at the consequences. The prince
saw none : and it was by his express desire that he now gave notice
he should pursue his design. Highly honoured, as he conceived
himself to be, by the prince's confidence upon this occasion, he
was not to be intimidated ; and he could assure the House, that
neither was his royalhighness to be deterred from his purpose by

I787.] THE PRlNcE OF WALEs's DEBTS. 325
the base and false rumours, which were spread abroad concerning
him. Mr. Fox observed, that not having heard that a subject of
so much delicacy and importance was likely to be at all alluded
to on Friday last, he had not come down to the House on that
day. On 11 former occasion, when the worthy alderman had
given notice of his intention to proceed by moving an address,
lie had heard the right honourable the chancellor of the ex
chequer throw out certain hints, which appeared to his mind
extremely like a menace, and that of a very extraordinary
nature; but those hints had, he understood, on Friday last,
been much narrowed by explanation, and confined to certain
correspondence and letters which had passed upon the sub
ject without doors. On Friday he had learned that an ho-
hourable friend of his had answered what had been said by
an honourable gentleman over the way, and had declared, that
he did not speak lightly, or without authority, when he as
serted, that his royal highness did not wish to shrink from
any inquiry which it might be thought necessary to institute.
In like manner, Mr. Fox said, he desired to be understood as
not speaking lightly, but as speaking from the .immediate au
thority of his royal highness the Prince of Wales, when he
assured the House, that there was no part of his royal high-
ness's conduct that he was either afraid or unwilling to have
investigated in the most minute manner. With regard to the
private correspondence alluded to, he wished to have it laid
before the House, because, it would prove that the conduct of
his royal highness had been in the highest degree amiable; and
would present an uniforit^and a perfect picture of duty and obe
dience; as much so as ever, in any instance, had been shewn
from a son to his father, or from a subject to his sovereign.
With regard to the debt, which was the cause of his embar
rassment, his royal highness, if the House should deem it
necessary, was willing to give an account in writing of every
part of it, — not of every single sum, or even of every thousand
pound, for such an account the good sense of the House
would see to be improper, if not impossible, — but a general
and fair account, and if any part of it was doubted, from a
suspicion that this or that article of the account compre
hended any sum or sums of money indirectly applied, his
royal highness would give a clear explanation of the par
ticulars, not to the House at large indeed, but to his majesty,
or to his majesty's ministers. He had not the smallest objec
tion to afford the House every possible satisfaction, and there
was not a circumstance of his royal highness's life which he was
ashamed to have known. * 3

326 THE PRINCE OF WALES'S DEBTS. [April 30.
With respect to the allusion to something full of " clanger to
the church and state," made by the honourable gentleman,
one of the members for the county of Devon, till that gentle
man thought proper to explain himself, it was impossible to
say with any certainty to what that allusion referred, but he
supposed it must be meant in reference to that miserable ca
lumny, that low malicious falsehood, which had been propa
gated without doors, and made the wanton sport of the vul
gar. In that House, where it was known how frequent and
common the falsehoods of the times were, he hoped a tale
only fit to impose on the lowest order of persons in the streets,
would not have gained the smallest portion of credit ; but
when it appeared that an invention so monstrous, a report of
a fact which had not the smallest degree of foundation, a report
of a fact actually impossible to have happened, had been circu
lated with so much industry as to have made an impression
on the minds of the members of that House, it proved at once
the uncommon pains taken by the enemies of his royal
highness to propagate the grossest and most malignant
falsehoods, with a view to depreciate his character and in
jure him in the opinion of his country. Mr. Fox added, that
when he considered that his royal highness was the first sub
ject in the kingdom, and the immediate heir to the throne, he
was at a loss to imagine what species of party it was that
could have fabricated so base and scandalous a calumny.
Had there existed in the kingdom such a faction as an Anti-
Brunswick faction, to that faction he should have certainly
imputed the invention of so malicious a falsehood ; for he
knew not what other description of men could feel an interest
in first forming and then circulating, with more than ordinary
assiduity, a tale in every particular so unfounded, and for
which there was not the shadow of any thing like reality.
This being the fact, and as the occasion had made it necessary
for him to declare as much, he hoped that it would have this
good effect upon the House and upon the country, that it
would teach both the one and the other to distrust the reports
circulated to the prejudice of the prince, and lessen any opi
nions that they might, in consequence, take up injurious to
the character of his royal highness, who might be said to be
a person, in whose fair fame thatHouse and the country'were
deeply interested. The whole of the debt the prince was
ready to submit to the investigation of the House; and he was
equally ready to submit the other circumstance to which he
had alluded, to their consideration, provided the considera
tion of a house of parliament could, consistently with pro
priety and decency, be applied to such a subject. Nay, his

T787. ] 'THE PRINCE OF WALEs's DEBTS. 327
•royal highness had authorized him to declare, that, as a peer
of parliament, he was ready in the other House to submit to
any the most pointed questions which could be put to him
respecting it, or to afford his majesty, or his majesty's mini
sters, the fullest assurances of , the utter falsehood of the fact
in question, which never had, and which common sense must
see, never could have happened.
Mr. Fox said, he had thought it incumbent on him to say
thus much in justification of his royal highness. He had
only to add, that his royal highness certainly wished to have
his situation taken into consideration ; and that when it came
under discussion he had no desire to be regarded as wishing
to shrink from any inquiry of any sort whatever. With re
gard to the alarming consequences talked of as likely to be' the
effect of such a discussion taking place, he saw no reason to
dread any such consequences. Painful and delicate the sub
ject undoubtedly was; but he must all along consider, that
however painful it might prove, and however disagreeable the
consequences might be, they were ascribeable solely to those
who had it in their power to supersede the necessity of his
royal highness's application to parliament to relieve him from
a situation embarrassing to himself and disgraceful to the
country. In conclusion, Mr, Fox declared, that he thought the
cause of the prince the cause of every man who knew the true
use of monarchy, and looked upon the family of the sovereign
as the property of the people, and as those in whom their
dearest and most essential interests were so involved, as to
make the happiness of the one the security of the other.
Mr. Rolle replied, that he was not singular in his fears For the
•church ; other gentleman had been equally alarmed, and he should
be happy to find that their apprehensions were groundless. The right
honourable member had said, that the fact alluded to was impos
sible to have happened. They all knew, indeed, that there were
certain laws and_acts of parliament which forbade it, and made it
null and void ; but still it might have taken place, though not
under the formal sanction of law ; and upon that point he wished
to be satisfied. Mr. Fox observed, that though what he had said
before was, he thought, sufficient to satisfy every candid and
liberal mind, he was willing, if possible, to satisfy the most per
verse. When he denied the calumny in question, he meant to
deny it not merely with regard to the effect of certain existing
laws, but to deny it in toto, in point of fact as well as law. The fact
not only never could have happened legally, but never did hap
pen in any way whatsoever, and had from the beginning been a base
and malicious falsehood. Mr. Rose rose again, and desired to know,
whether what Mr. Fox had last said, was to be understood as spoken
from direct authority, Mr. Fox replied, that he had direct authority.
It appears to have been expected, that upon this declaration Mr.
Y 4

I

328 THE PRINCE OF WALEs's DEBTS. [April 3 O
Rolle would have expressed his full satisfaction ; and being called
upon by a member so to do, he said that nothing should induce
him to act otherwise than to his own judgment should seem proper.
An answer had certainly been given to his question, and the House
would judge for themselves of that answer. This conduct occa
sioned some warm reflections from Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Grey,
who said, that the honourable member, after having put a pointed
question for the solution of doubts existing in his own mind, and
having received an immediate answer, was bound in honour and
fairness either to declare that he was satisfied, or to take some
means of putting the matter into such a state of inquiry as should
satisfy him. To remain silent, or to declare that the House might
judge for itself, was neither manly nor candid : it tended to aggra
vate, in a high degree, the malicious falsehood that had been pro
pagated, by admitting a supposition, that the prince might authorize
a false denial of the fact. Mr. Pitt defended Mr. Rolle with great
warmth, and declared, that what had been said by the members
who preceded him was the most direct attack upon the freedom
of debate and liberty of speech in that House, that he had ever
heard since he sat in parliament. Mr. Rolle stated shortly the
art he had taken, declared that he had been induced so to do by
is affection for the prince ; that he had not said he was dissa
tisfied; and that he left the whole to the judgment of the House.
The favourable impression which this debate, the open and
manly conduct of the prince, and the harshness with which he had
been treated in his most private and personal concerns, left upon
the minds of men both within and without the doors of parliament,
appears to have given the minister a serious apprehension, that
upon the question itself he might be left in a minority ; for the
next day overtures were made to his royal highness to bring the
business to a private accommodation. On Thursday the 3d of
May, Mr. Pitt had an audience at Carlton-house, and the same
night the prince was informed by his majesty's commands, in
general terms, that if the motion intended to be made the next
day in the House of Commons should be withdrawn, every thing
might be settled to his royal highness's satisfaction. Accordingly
on the 4th, Mr. Newnham being in his place in the House, in which
upwards of 400 members were assembled, rose and said, he felt
the highest satisfaction in being able to inform the House that his
intended motion was no longer necessary. Several members
joined in expressing in the wannest terms the great satisfaction
this information gave them;
On the 2 1 st of May, a message from the king was delivered to
parliament, stating, that his majesty with great concern acquainted
them, that the prince had incurred a very large debt, which, if
left to be discharged out of his annual income, would render it
impossible for him to support an establishment that would be suited
to his rank and station. His majesty was induced to the present
application by his paternal affection to the Prince of Wales ; he
could not, however, desire the assistance of parliament, but on a
well-grounded conviction that the prince would avoid contracting
any debts in future. With a view to this object, the king had

1787.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 329
directed a sum of io,oool. to be paid out of the civil list, in addi
tion to his former allowance ; he had the satisfaction to observe,
that the prince had given the fullest assurance of his determination
to confine his future expences within his income, and had settled
a plan, and fixed an order in his ceconomy, which, it was trusted,
would effectually secure the due execution of his intentions. He
farther recommended to the commons to direct, that the works
of Carlton-house should be properly finished. In answer to this
message, i6i,oool. were voted for the payment of the prince's
debts, and 20,0*00!. for the completion of Carlton-house.

Address on the King's Speech at the' Opening of the
Session.
November 27.
THIS day the King opened the session with the following speech
to both Houses :
" My lords, and gentlemen ; At the close of the last session, I
informed you of the concern with which I observed the disputes
unhappily subsisting in the republic of the United Provinces. —
Their situation soon afterwards became more critical and alarming,
and the danger Which threatened their constitution and indepen
dence, seemed likely, in its consequence, to affect the security and
interests of my dominions. — . No endeavours were wanting on my
part to contribute by my good offices to the restoration of tran
quillity, and the maintenance of the lawful government ; and I
also thought it necessary to explain my intention of counteracting
all forcibie interference on the part of France in the internal
affairs of the republic. Under these circumstances, the King of
Prussia having taken measures to enforce his demand of satis
faction for the insult offered to the Princess of Orange, the party
which had usurped the government of Holland applied to the
Most Christian King for assistance, who notified to me his intention
of granting their request. — In conformity to the principles which
I had before explained, I did not hesitate, on receiving this noti
fication, to declare, that I could not remain a quiet spectator of
the armed interference of France, and I gave immediate orders for
augmenting my forces both by sea and land. — In the course of
these transactions, I also thought proper to conclude a treaty with
the Landgrave of Hesse Cassel, by which I secured the assistance
of a considerable body of troops, in case my service should require
it. — In the mean time, the rapid success of the Prussian troops
under the conduct of the Duke of Brunswick, while it was the
means of obtaining the reparation demanded by the King of Prus
sia, enabled the provinces to deliver themselves from the oppres
sion under which they laboured, and to re-establish their lawful

3j^ ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov. 27,
government. — All subjects of contest being thus removed, an
amicable explanation took place between me and the Most Chris
tian King, and declarations have been exchanged by our respective
ministers,. by which we have agreed mutually to disarm, and to
place our naval establishments on the same footing as in the be
ginning of the present year  It gives me the greatest satisfaction
that the important events, which I have communicated to you,
have taken place without disturbing my subjects in the enjoyment
of the blessings of peace; and I have great pleasure in acquainting
you, that I continue to receive from all foreign powers the fullest
assurances of their pacific and friendly disposition towards this
country. I must, at the same time, regret that the tranquillity of
one part of Europe is unhappily interrupted by the war which has
broken out between Russia and the Porte. — A convention has
been agreed upon between me and the Most Christian King, ex
planatory of the thirteenth article of the last treaty of peace, and
calculated to prevent jealousies and disputes between our respective
subjects in the East Indies. I have ordered copies of the several
treaties to which I have referred, and of the declaration and coun
ter-declaration exchanged at Versailles, to be laid before you.
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons ; I have ordered the
estimates for the ensuing year to be laid before-you, together with
an account of the extraordinary expences which the situation of
affairs rendered necessary. — I have the fullest reliance in your
zeal and public spirit, that you will make due provision for the
several branches of the public service. I am always desirous of
confining those expences within the narrowest limits which a pru
dent regard to the public safety will permit,; but I must at the
same time recommend to your particular attention to consider of
the proper means for maintaining my distant possessions in an
adequate posture of defence. '
" My lords and gentlemen ; the flourishing state of the com
merce and revenues of this country cannot fail to encourage you
in the pursuit of such measures as may confirm and improve so
favourable a situation. — These circumstances must also render you
peculiarly anxious for the continuation of'public tranquillity, which
it is my constant object to preserve. — I am at the same time per
suaded you will agree with me in thinking that nothing can more
effectually tend to secure so invaluable a blessing, than the zeal
and unanimity which were shewn by all ranks of my subjects on
the late occasion, and which manifest their readiness to exert them
selves whenever the honour of my crown and the interests of my
dominions may require it."
An address in the usual form was moved in the House of Com
mons, by the honourable Mr. Dudley Ryder *, and seconded by
Mr. Brooke, member for Newton, Lancashire. The substance of
the address met with the general concurrence of the House ; but
a short debate took place upon a few topics arising out of it. Lord
Fielding, after expressing the strongest approbation of what had

* The present Earl of Harrowby.*

1787-] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 33I
been done by ministers upon the late occasion, suggested a doubt,
which had arisen in his own mind, whether or no they had fully
availed themselves of the favourable opportunity that had pre
sented itself, and whether they might not, and ought not, to have
gone farther, and done more for the future security of this country
against the ambition of France. The object, he said, which he
had particularly in his view, was the demolition of the stupendous ¦
works that were projected and carrying on at Cherburgh. He
stated his opinion of their vast importance, not only as rendering
our rival more formidable in herself, but as being evidently in their
design hostile to this kingdom. He conceived, that as the manifest
superiority of this country had put it within our power to enforce,
so the great expence, which we had been obliged to incur, would
justify the demand of some compensation from the French court.
The object he alluded to had been shamefully overlooked, or cor
ruptly relinquished, in the last treaty of peace ; and he therefore
desired to enter his protest against any construction of his vote,
that should pledge him to approve of the minister's conduct, if it
hereafter appeared that he had again neglected this important
object. Mr. Fox rose and observed, that he should contradict every
political principle and sentiment that he had acted upon
through life, were he not to give his most hearty concurrence
to the sum and substance of the speech from the throne, and
the address that had been moved upon it, because he took
the substance of both to be a public avowal from the throne,
and as public an acknowledgment on the part of that House,
that those systems of politics, Which had on former occasions
been called romantic, were serious systems, and such as it was
the true interest of this country to be governed by ; namely,
systems established on that sound and solid political maxim,
that Great Britain ought to look to the situation of affairs up
on the Continent, and to take such measures upon every change
of circumstances abroad, as should tend best to preserve the
balance of power in Europe. Upon that maxim he had found
ed all his political conduct, and convinced as he was of its just
ness, he should continue to adhere to it, and consequently
could not withhold his ready and sincere assent to an address
admitting the maxim completely.
It was now, he observed, confessed by government, that it
was necessary to come to the lower orders of the people, those
who were labouring under the heaviest burdens, those who
paid for their candles, their windows, and all the various neces
saries of life, and say, " severely taxed as we know you are,
you must nevertheless contribute something towards the expence
of keeping political power upon a balance in Europe." This
was open and manly ; it was dictated by sound policy. Let,
therefore, the expence of effecting ano? enforcing the late mea-

332 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov. 2f.
sures in the republic of Holland have been what it might, he
should think the money well laid out, and would give any as
sistance in his power to the voting it cheerfully and freely.
There was, however, in the address, a loose word, that might
possibly have been suffered to find its way into it through ac
cident, and which he could have wished had not been there.
Some passages of it also referred to points that might require
a good deal of discussion ; but, as the address was wisely put
together, and those matters that were most likely to create de
bate, mentioned with a reserve for consideration on a future
day, when that House should have the documents before them
necessary to give them that information, without which they
could not in a parliamentary way proceed to investigate their
policy and wisdom, it was not necessary for him to discuss
them at that moment. He took the beginning of the address,
containing an avowal, that the situation of affairs in the repub->
lie of the United Provinces seemed likely, in its consequences,
to affect the security and interest of the British dominions;
and that his majesty had acted with success upon that circum
stance, to be the essential substance of the address, and to that
he gave his full assent. One observation he had to make upon
the address in that particular, and that was this most obvious
one : the address expressly stated, that the king of France had
notified his intention of granting the request of the party who
had usurped the government of Holland : he did not suppose
the address contained any thing but truth, because no minister
would presume to put any thing but truth into the mouth of
his majesty; but although the address contained this as
sertion, and directly stated that the king of France had noti
fied his intention of assisting the party who had usurped this
government, yet, if the counter-declaration was looked into, it
Would be there found, that it was roundly asserted, that the
court of France never had any such intention. He did not,
however, wish to rest upon a French declaration, or upon any
French professions, whether perfectly made or clearly expres
sed or not. The fact undoubtedly was as his majesty's speech
stated it to be, and there was no doubt, but that France had
assured the party who had seized upon the government of the
United Provinces, of her determination to assist them.
Mr. Fox reminded the House, how repeatedly he had urged
the perfidy and treacherousness of France in the exertion of
her influence in foreign states, and that when the commercial
treaty was under discussion last session, and he, among others,
had expressed his dislike of that treaty, and his conviction,
that it would not prove the bond of amity, and secure to us
the continuance of the blessings of peace, how much was said
of the pacific intentions of France, and of the sincerity of her

I787.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH- 333
professions of regard and friendship towards this country, and
yet they were now told in that House from the highest autho
rity, that this new friend and commercial ally had interfered
in the affairs of the United Provinces, and promised to sup
port that party, who were termed, in the very same speech,
the usurpers of the lawful government, and, at a time too, when
those who held the legal government were in alliance and con
nected with France. The charges of treachery and perfidi-
ousness, which he, and various others, had on different occa
sions urged against France, had at the same time been some
times thought too strong ; but, strong as they might be, they
were weak, indeed, compared with the charge contained in
the speech from the throne, for there his majesty had declared
explicitly, that France had signified her intention of assisting
the usurpers of the legal government of the United Provinces,
when those who held that legal government were in amity
and alliance with her.
Mr. Fox laid great stress on this circumstance ; and then
proceeded to observe, that he did not think it at all necessary
to enquire into the legality of the constitution of a foreign
state; in the speech, the " lawful government" was the term
made use of. He had ever thought it his duty, and the duty
of every member of parliament, to consider himself the repre
sentative of the people of Great Britain, and to attend to the
interests of Britons, let them be where, in what country, and
at what distance they might. The preservation of our own
constitution, for the sake of the preservation of our liberties,
and the prosperity of Great Britain and all her dependencies,
were objects immediately worthy their attention and proper
for their consideration ; but, he was far from thinking it was
either wise or becoming for that House to apply itself to an
inquiry into the legality of the constitution or form of govern
ment of a foreign state. It was sufficient for him and for the
House, to consider which party in the republic of the United
Provinces was most inclined to be friendly to Great Britain,
and to renew a natural alliance with us, in preference to an
unnatural alliance with France. His opinion, therefore, was,
that the word "lawful" applied to the word "government" in
the address was redundant.
Mr. Fox took notice that Lord Fielding had declared he
was not ripe to say, that ministers ought not to have gone far
ther, and pushed the opportunity beyond the mere pretension
of the forcible interference of France. In this he perfectly
concurred with the noble lord ; but he did not mean with re
spect to Cherburgh ; he meant merely that ministers would
not have gone far enough if they had stopped with the pacifi
cation with France. He took it for granted, that they bad
10

334 ADDRESS OS THE KTJTG's SPEECH. [XoV. 2 J.
gone, and were still going much farther, since happy and for
tunate as die eveins already ascertained had proved, and highly
as bethought die measnres lately pursued, with respect to the
republic, were entitled to applause, he shook! be of opinion,
that a gkaioasuiMjUftiiiiify had been kiet- if steps had not been
taken, and were not still pursuing, for the restoration of a dose
aIKsnw». between this coonlrv and the republic. Without such
a conclusion to die plan, it would be lamentably imperfect
and incomplete.
With regard to the subsidiary treaty with Hesse CasseL it
was impossible for him to speak tort till such time as the House
should be in possession of better information upon the topic
than they were at present, and therefore he would wait till the
future day on which it would necessarily come under discus
sion. He said, he happened to hare come down late to the
House, by which he had lost the pleasure of hearing, what he
was informed had been, a most able and eloquent speech from
the honourable gentleman who moved the address. Ammg
other things that had (alien from the honourable gentleman.
he had understood that in speaking of the treaty with the land-
glare of Hesse, the honourable gentleman had praised subsi
diary treaties, and spoken of them as measures peculiarly pro
per and wise to be taken by commercial countries to keep
their manufacturers and labourers at home. He had, Mr.
Fas. said, been uniformly a friend to subsidiary treaties on the
same principle: but the principle might be carried to too
great an extent. It was possible for ministers to be in posses
sion effects that might justify the sort of treaty that should
hereafter appear to have been the treaty entered into. One
great use of subsidiary treaties, however, he had ever conceived
to be the power they gave the government who entered into
them, of reducing the military establishment at home, and
lessening the expence to the country, or at least by employing
the money, by applying it to give additional strength to the
navy, the natural force of Great Britain. Whether this was
to be the effect of the treaty with die landgrave of Hesse
was a matter thaf. remained to be inquired into when the
proper day of discussion should arrive, as* likewise whether
the treaty mentioned in the speech was a treaty calcu
lated only to answer the temporary purpose of the neces
sity that then threatened, or a general treaty founded on a
more permanent basis, and which, though it added some
what to the national expence, was convertible to the narinnal
service, whenever occasion should require. This, Mr. Fox
said, was a point which he did not dearly understand from
the speeah, hut upon which he should hereafter expect some
information; not that he meant in that House to enter too

T787-l ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 33 J
minutely into the discussion of negotiations which might be
pending. He was aware that the doing so was prejudicial to
the public interests, and therefore he had never been fond of
either pursuing or countenancing it.
With respect to the agreement of the two courts of Great
Britain and France mutually to disarm, a great deal of con
versation had taken place without doors on the true meaning
of the declaration and counter-declaration. In that respect,
he conceived all that was intended by his majesty's ministers
and the ministers of the court of France was, that each power
should reduce their establishments to what they were at die
beginning of the year, but be at full liberty to increase them
in case new circumstances arose ; for if, as some people had sup
posed, it was understood between the two courts that they were
bound down to remain in their reduced establishment state,
let what would happen. Great Britain had made a most, pre
posterous agreement, and which, as it was impossible to be
adhered to by France or Great Britain, could never have been
intended by either. Mr. Fox illustrated this position by stating,
that if such were the nature and meaning of the agreement,
this country, in case of an attack from any other quarter than
France, would not have it in her power to increase her arma
ment without the consent of France ; and reminded the House,
that in all our late wars the different branches of die house of
Bourbon considered the subject of each as a family quarrel, in
which they were all materially concerned. If, therefore, Spain
attacked us, we must remain in an ineffectual state of arma
ment. A very material question to be answered before the
meaning of die declaration, or rather the exact compUance
widi its terms, Mr. Fox said, could be ascertained, was, what
was the real state of the naval establishments of the two coun
tries at the beginning of the year, and what was understood
by each to be a satisfactory reduction ?
Another observation arose in his mind upon reading the
speech, and that was, diat the condition entered into by the
two courts, in respect to disarming, went only to the naval
establishment, whereas, in the preceding part of the speech,
his majesty stated, that on receiving die notification from
France of her intention to assist die usurpers of the lawful
government, he gave immediate orders for augmenting his
forces both by sea and land. Why was not the military force
to be reduced as well as die naval ? The speech gave no in
timation of it, neither had the declaration or counter-decla
ration conveyed any such intention: and this naturally led
him to another part of the speech, connected with the same
topic, and that was, die recommendation to the particular
Attention of that House, to consider of the proper means for

33<5 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov. 27
maintaining his majesty's distant possessions in an adequate
posture of defence. He had the honour, Mr. Fox said, to
have been in administration when the peace establishment was
settled ; if, therefore, an inadequate establishment had been
then proposed, the criminality, or rather the blame of the
measure, if blame were due, was imputable to him and to
those with whom he acted ; but not more to him or them
than to the present ministry, since the same establishment
had been adhered to by the succeeding administration, and
continued by that House. Probably, however, his majesty's
ministers had come to the knowledge of circumstances which
had convinced them, that the establishment after the peace
was insufficient, and if so, they would doubtless lay before
the House their reasons for being of that opinion, and then
it would be for the House to decide upon their validity and
force. Mr. Fox, after making these cursory remarks, returned to
his original position, and in glowing terms expressed his sa
tisfaction at the system of measures lately adopted. He said,
that whether government had adopted those measures with
respect to the United Provinces sufficiently soon, or whether
they ought to have adopted them earlier, were matters of
opinion; but he was extremely glad to find that they had at
length embraced them, and he hoped when we should have
connected ourselves with the United Provinces by a solid and
substantial treaty, to which he could not but with reasonable
expectation look forward, since the interest of each power
Was one and the same ; that the government would pursue the
idea of taking the most effectual steps to preserve the balance
of power, and carry it into execution with regard to other
European states and countries. He said, he did not approve
of the conduct of those statesmen, who, in order to exert
their political influence in foreign courts, resorted to indirect
and concealed practices, by fomenting factions and cabals.
But unworthy as those means were, and illaudable in them
selves as they must be acknowledged to be, so long as it was
notorious that they were constantly resorted , to by other
powers, and most especially by the court of France, it became
the duty of British ministers to endeavour to counteract her
purposes in the same secret way in which she endeavoured to
effect them, and therefore he wished the word " forcible"
had not been used in the speech by way of qualifying the
mention of the interference of France. So far from the " for
cible interference" of that court in the affairs of the republic
of the United Provinces, being the sole interference that it
behoved this country to counteract, every sort of interference,
open or concealed, ought to be counteracted by us; and con-

I787'] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 337
sequently, had the word interference stood alone, and the
meaning been generally expressed, in his mind the sentence
would have been more proper and applicable.
His noble colleague (Lord Hood) had seemed to think that
war was not so distant as might be imagined. He could not,
Mr. Fox said, see any reason for despondency. So far from
it, the recent events had shewn that France was, in point of
finance, in so imbecile a state, as well as in other particulars,
that it was not in her power to break with us, and if, with all
her natural and various means of recruiting herself on an
emergency, and of suddenly obtaining resources, she would
not engage in a war, when such an important prize as the
possession of Holland was at stake, he was pretty well per
suaded that she would not quarrel with this country for some
time at least, or on a slight punctilio. But the best means
to insure the continuance of peace, was to add to our strength
rather than trust to the weakness of our oldest and most in
veterate rival. Let us enlarge the number of our alliances,
insure the co-operation of other powers in the hour of attack,
improve our marine, cherish and preserve it and all that be
longed to that favourite service, and we might then consider
the ambition of the house of Bourbon, its imbecility, or its
power, as matters of equally trifling consideration. Mr. Fox
here took occasion to compliment those who had the direction
of naval affairs in their choice of an officer to command the
grand fleet, the most important division of our maritime force.
He reminded the House, that the ministry of which he had
the honour to be one, had nominated the same officer to the
command of the West India squadron in 1782, and that a
good deal of slur had been cast on the nomination by those
who at that time thought fit to question the propriety of the
appointment, and to declare that officer unfit to hold the com
mand. The recent appointment of the same officer to a still
higher command, proved that the opinion he had ever enter
tained of the merits of Admiral Pigot was not peculiar to
himself, that the slur formerly cast on his administration, for
having appointed the admiral to the command of the West
India squadron was unmerited, and that the persons at pre
sent at the head, of the admiralty thought as highly' of that
officer's character and professional talents, as he, and those
connected with him, had done. Mr. Fox repeated his decla
ration, that the substance of the address had his hearty ap
probation and concurrence; and having applauded it for
leaving all the other considerations to which he had alluded,
as matters of reference to be discussed on a future day, and
by that means avoided pledging the House to points that it
was impossible for them to decide upon without farther infor-
VOL. III. z

338 SUBSIDIARY TREATY, &C. [Dec. 5.
mation, said he would give his vote for it with the most
heartfelt sincerity, and he hoped it would meet with the una
nimous approbation of the House.
The address was agreed to nem. con.

Subsidiary Treaty with the Landgrave of
Hesse Cassel.
December 5.
THIS day Mr. Pitt having moved, "That 36,093?. 15s. be
granted to his majesty for defraying the charge of subsidy
which will be due to the Landgrave of Hesse Cassel for the year
1788, pursuant to treaty,"
Mr. Fox observed, that he had expected that the House
would have received some explanation of the nature of the
treaty, by which they were called upon to vote the sum stated
in the motion. He had on a preceding occasion, generally
adverted to the treaty that was now the subject of considera
tion, and had asked whether it was to be considered as a
mere temporary expence, like the rest of the charge of the
late armament and preparations, or to be regarded in a more
permanent light, as an expence to be continued with a view
to the future situation of this country with respect to Hol
land and other continental powers. As there was a great
deal of difference in these two views of it, and different coti^-
siderations would necessarily arise from each, he conceived
it highly proper that the House, previous to their voting of
the money, should receive some explanation respecting it, in
order that they might know the full extent of their vote. —
Another matter that appeared to him to call for observation
was, that in the treaty it was stipulated, that if Hessian troops
were required to serve in Great Britain and Ireland, they
should be put upon the same footing as British national troops.
Now, as he did not suppose that it was meant that foreign
troops should be brought at any time into this kingdom or
Ireland, without the previous knowledge or consent of par
hament, he saw no necessity for the stipulation ; because if
ever a necessity should arise for the aid of foreign troops in
England or Ireland, and the necessity should be sufficiently
urgent to palliate the employment of foreign troops, and re
concile the people to the measure, an adequate number, he

*?87.] AUGMENTATION OP THE LAND FORCES. 339
conceived, might be obtained upon the condition of being
treated as British soldiers, without any treaty having been in
existence. With regard to the exception also of the Hessian
troops from being liable to be called into service any where
but in Great Britain and Ireland, unless in Germany and
the Low countries, he thought it an unfortunate exception ;
because under the construction of the treaty, he conceived
that Hessian troops could not be applicable to service in the
West Indies, or in Gibraltar." If the exception had been the
other way, he should have thought it better ; because, in all
probability, Hessian troops would never be required to serve
in Great Britain and Ireland ; but might be of use in Gibral
tar, in America, and in the West Indies. It was not very
likely that a future war would commence in the manner that
the late war had done ; but it was not impossible, and it was
to be remembered, that Hessian troops were then employed
at Gibraltar and in America. A greal deal depended in form
ing a judgment of the treaty under consideration, upon a
knowledge of the negociations then pending with other foreign
powers. He had, on the first 'day of the session, observed,
that he meant not to press for an improper communication,
nor was it his wish, at that moment, although without such a
knowledge it was impossible to decide upon the merits of the
treaty in question ; but he hoped, that voting for the sum then
moved for, would by no means pledge the House, or pre
clude him or any other gentleman, from examining into, or
objecting to, any future measure that might be proposed to
parliament, as a consequence of the treaty.
The motion was agreed to nem. con.

Augmentation of the Land ForcBs.
December 10.
THIS day an augmentation of the land forces was proposed by
the secretary at war, for the purpose recommended in the
king's speech at the opening of the session, namely, that of main
taining our distant possessions in an adequate posture of defence.
The proposed augmentation was to be effected by re-establishing
the third and fourth battalions of the sixtieth regiment, and in
creasing the number of men in the regiments on the West India
service; the augmentation amounting in the whole to 3,064 men.
At the same time the secretary at war informed die House, that
z 2

340 augmentation of the land forces. [Dec. io.
his majesty had been graciously pleased to declare, that, as his
household troops were not, in proportion to their expences, so
materially conducive to the strength and security of the kingdom
as the other forces ; and, as the augmentation proposed would be
the cause of laying additional burthens upon his subjects ; he was
willing to contribute his share, by sacrificing ornament to service,
in such a reduction of his household troops as should be deemed
necessary and proper. These propositions gave rise to a long and
interesting debate.
Mr. Fox expressed his astonishment at not discovering
some better and more satisfactory reason assigned for the pro
posed increase of the establishment for the plantations, than
the two words mentioned, that ministers had found the West
Indies, upon investigating their situation during the late tran
sactions on the continent, to be rather subjects of " anxiety"
than of " comfort". These words were fortified only by the
opinions of the officers and commanders on the West India
islands, as to the force they severally thought requisite for the
defence of the islands they commanded. For a committee of
the House of Commons to vote away the money of their con
stituents, upon such grounds as those, would be one of the
most singular instances of blind confidence in a minister that
ever had been imagined possible, and could be justified only
by an universal confession of that House, that such was their
personal regard for the minister, such their implicit, unli
mited, and extraordinary confidence, that they were ready to
trust him generally with the whole management and execution
of the various offices of government, to give up their parlia
mentary functions, to resign all pretensions to investigation,
check, and controul, and readily to vote whatever he should
be pleased to desire, without hearing a single reason stated
for the innovations that he might choose, one after another,
to introduce. Instances might occur in which it would prove
both wise and necessary to place a full confidence in ministers,
and to give them credit for the just application of the confi
dence so placed in them. For example, the minister had
charged 80,000/. secret service money expended during the
late affair in Holland. That was an occasion of the sort to
which he was referring. He had there given the minister his
confidence freely and readily. And why ? Because the event
of the transaction sufficiently proved that a wise use had been
made of the money, and that it had been well laid out. So
again in other cases of a single and temporary nature. Even
now, if the minister had come and proposed an augmentation
of the army abroad for a single year, he might have been in
duced to have given him his confidence, upon his saying,
" I have a reason for this augmentation, sufficiently cogent to
14

787.] augmentation of the land forces. 341
warrant it, but I cannot explain it to the House at present."
That would have been a fit occasion for confidence, and the
executive government must have been given credit to for the
validity of the reason, though it was not explained. But when
a measure was meant to be permanent, as in the present in
stance, the House could not, consistently with their duty to
their constituents, blindly give the minister credit for the pro
priety of his suggestion. They were bound to call for the
reasons upon which it was grounded, to examine those rea
sons seriously and accurately, and to reject or approve the
proposition, according as it should appear to their judgment
to merit rejection or approbation.
With regard to the peace establishment of the army, Mr.
Fox said, he had been one of those ministers who proposed
it, and when he came down to the House for that purpose,
his expectation was, that it would have been thought too
large, not too small. That expectation had been fulfilled,
and it had been argued at the time, that the peace establish
ment of the army, considering the climinished state of the em
pire, ought to have been still more reduced. In order to shew
upon what principles he had settled the plantation peace esta
blishment in 1783, Mr. Fox took a view of the different state
of our colonies at the conclusion of the peace of Aix la Cha-
pelle in 1749, and at the conclusion of the peace of 1762.
By some, he said, it had been brought forward as an argu
ment, that with all America in our possession, our peace
establishment ought to be larger than without it, and upon
that proposition it was that the plantation peace establish
ment of the year 1763, when the whole of America was in
our hands, was greater than that of 1 749, when great part
of Louisiana, all Canada, and the other provinces of America,
were in the hands of the French. At present, we had less of
America than at either of those periods ; we had lost thirteen
entire colonies, and the island of Minorca. His peace esta
blishment for the plantations had therefore taken a medium,
and being nearly the same with that of 1 749, was not so large
as that of 1763.
Upon the comparison, allowing the argument respecting the
possession of all America to be well founded, his establish
ment might be liable to censure for its large extent and
expence ; but it surely could not be questioned as too limited
and too narrow. Why was it, then, now to be altered ? Did
the accounts we had of late years received from the United
States of America give us any reason for apprehension from
that quarter ? Surely not. Their situation could not be cause
of alarm. To what reason, then, was he to ascribe the present
proposed augmentation ? Was it solely because ministers saw
z 3

342 AUGMENTATION OF THE LAND FORCES. [Dec. IO.
more cause of anxiety than comfort, when they turned their
attention to our distant possessions? Had no other con
sideration excited their anxiety ? For instance, had the state
of the navy been regarded by them without anxiety ? He
had on a former day declared that he joined freely in applaud
ing the late attempts to regain some continental connections.
Why was he an advocate for such connections ? Because, by
creating a diversion for France nearer home, we weakened
her powers of hostile attack abroad. Because the effect of
such a circumstance enabled that House to save the money of
their constituents, and to lessen their peace establishment.
It was now rather a time to disarm and reduce the army, than
a time for its increase. Of whom were we afraid ? Of our
new friends ? If apprehensions on their account, and the
necessity for taking the last shilling out of the pockets of their
constituents, arose from continental connections and our late
alliances, greatly as he had professed himself the advocate and
admirer of such connections and alliances, he would abjure
all such doctrines as heretical and false, and abandon them
for ever.
A worthy baronet behind him (Sir Joseph Mawbey) had
created a smile when he mentioned the increase of the army
as necessary to keep pace with the increasing army of France,
since we had agreed to disarm our navy and reduce it. He
verily believed that this was the true reason of the present
proposed augmentation of the military establishment in the
plantations ; for what else could account for so extraordinary
a condition respecting our navy in the counter declaration of
France ? If so, France had reason to triumph in the event
of the late transactions, and not we, for France had obtained
a rational and a great object. At no time had France been
unwilling that we should increase our army. She was wiser,
and knew it was the increase of our navy and not our military
that she had to dread.
Mr. Fox alluded to Lord Chatham's famous expression that
" America had been conquered in Germany," which, though
bold and figurative, was not, he said, untrue. In hke man
ner the converse of the proposition was founded, and, last war,
America had been lost for want of a continental war in Ger
many. Mr. Fox reasoned upon the policy of economy, and
contended that it was by a judicious saving of our resources
alone, that we could enable ourselves to meet a war and its
difficulties when a war should arise. He reminded the com
mittee of the speech of Cicero, before the Roman senate,
when he had, in one of his orations, in substance said, that
" the example of Julius Cassar was more forcible than any argu
ment which be could urge." France was, in the present case,

*7870 - AUGMENTATION OF THE LAND FORCES. 343
to us, what Julius Cassar was to Rome. France had an army
of 160,000 men, a powerful marine, and her frontier towns,
such as Lisle, and others, were in complete repair. What,
then, could have induced France to incur the disgrace result
ing from her late conduct ? Nothing, but her inability to go
to war in consequence of the miserably exhausted state of her
finances ; exhausted by the impolitic extent of her military
preparations. Were we, then, so unwise as to follow the steps
that had led France to ruin, and to take up a system of ex
pensive preparations that had been abandoned by all Europe ?
Mr. Fox took notice of what had fallen from his honourable
friend (Colonel Fitzpatrick) respecting a commander in chief,
declaring, that he was more than ever convinced of the ne
cessity of there being a commander in chief of the army, a
war minister or ministers who would take upon themselves
the responsibility for military measures. In the present case,
the secretary at war who opened the estimate had mentioned
the opinion of the officers and commanders, in the West In
dies, as those who had been consulted as to the quantum of
force necessary for each island. Such persons would have
been the last authority he should have resorted to, and their
opinions those which he should have been the least anxious
to obtain ; because nothing could be more obvious than that
each commander of an island would demand as large a force
as he thought equal to his responsibility, and would govern
himself in his requisition merely by a regard to his own par
ticular situation ; whereas, in judging of a proper peace esta
blishment for the whole possessions of Great Britain, much
depended on a general and comprehensive view of all its parts,
and their exigencies, relatively compared ; a matter to which
a commander in chief, or a war minister, could alone be
competent. From the attempt of that day/to increase the permanent
peace establishment of the army, it was evident that he was,
the only minister that had ever been chargeable with having
refused to take the money out of the pockets of the people
when he ought to have done so, or to have established too
small a standing army in time of peace. With regard
to patronage, also, which had been charged against him as
the object of his pursuit when in office, respecting the army
at least, he had that day been fully acquitted by the secre
tary at war, since the right honourable baronet had explicitly
declared, that for the five last years not a single promotion
had been made but by purchase, and had stated the want of
patronage as a serious inconvenience resulting from the plan
of seconding the officers of the reduced regiments. Mr. Fox
reminded the committee, that in the year 1780, a vote had
z 4

344 ArGMEJTTATIOK OF THE IAKD FOBCES. [Dec IO.
passed, w that the influence of the crown had increased, was
increasing, and ought to be diminished," and that some mea
sures had subsequently been taken for its diminution ; but,
that die abundance of new commissions which had been
since passed, and the number of places since created, amply
made up for the diminution; and he contended, that the
patronage that would result from the proposed augmentation
must necessarily increase it abundandy. He asserted, that it
was unfair to reckon upon the whole saving that would be
occasioned by the employ of the seconded officers in the new
companies, since, though little had, as he beheved, as yet
arisen from their deaths, more would every day accrue as they
died of£
With regard to the Hessian treaty, he declared himself a
friend to it ; but the passage of it that appeared to counte
nance the introduction of Hessian troops into Great Britain
reqmred explanation. He recapitulated the effect of the
jealousies that had formerly arisen on that head, andmentioned
the late Lord Chatham's having differed from the minister
(Mr. Peiham) when he held' an office under him, and said,
that his great argument in favour of die militia being instituted,
rested entirely on the plea that it would prevent the possibility
of there ever again arising the smallest necessity for employing
Hessian troops within die realm. He acknowledged that he
had supported the proposition of last year of not calling out
the imlitifL so frequently as had been the practice before, and
as was the wish of marry gentlemen, who were not only Ins
particular political friends, but in every point of view most
respectable characters, and declared that be did it from a con-
saderation, that the economy of the new measure was a
greater national advantage than any benefit which could re
sult from continuing to call them out as usual. He mentioned
also the late Lord Chatham's having always declared himself
an advocate for a strung navy and a reduced army, and con
trasted the late lord's conduct in both particulars with that of
die present minister, declaring that although he himself as
well as the right honourable gentleman might handsomely and
honourably diner, in some of their political opinions, from
those of the persons to whom they owed every endearing filial
obligation, it was rather extraordinary, that die right honour
able gentleman should appear to have countenanced the intro
duction of foreign troops into Great Britain, in preference to
calling out the militia., and to have consented to a stipulation
with France to reduce the naval force of the country, and then
come forward with a propoation for an augmentation of the
army. Mr. Fox said, that the 36,000/L expence incurred by
the Hessian treaty must certainly be added to die increase of

I787O AUGMENTATION OF THE LAND FORCES. 345
the army estimates, whereas he had considered it as enabling
us to increase our marine, and protect the West India islands
with a naval force. He stated as another objection to the pro
posed plan, the unhealthy climate of our West India islands,
and declared, that if the augmentation had been applied any
where else, he should have better liked it. He mentioned
Nova Scotia as a healthy colony, and said that it would have
been a better station for a military force than the West Indies,
and the troops would have been sufficiently near at hand in
time of danger. He spoke also of the dispersion and distance
of the West India islands from each other, the uncertainty of
sea voyages, and the constant uniformity of trade winds and
tides, as other sources of inconvenience, which amounted to
a corroboration of the impolicy of having a large land force
locked up in the islands.
Mr. Fox next returned to his first reasoning, upon what
he stated to be of an unparliamentary and unconstitutional
tendency, the inclination to put a confidence without bound
or limit in the minister, in a case where he contended implicit
confidence ought not to be granted. He called, therefore,
upon those who were the real friends of the minister, to join
with him in convincing him of their sincerity, by making
their stand there ; and though they had concurred with him,
and with the public, in giving due praise to the right honour
able gentleman for the happy event of their exertions in the
course of the year, convince him that they meant him better,
than blindly to follow in supporting all his plans, whether
explained satisfactorily and sufficiently, or introduced with
out a single reason that could tend to impress a conviction
of their propriety. The hour of triumph, Mr. Fox added,
was that of all others in which it was the most necessary to
be cautious, and to guard with more than an ordinary degree
of vigilance against being surprized into the sanction of a per
manent measure, which could not afterwards be recalled or
remedied. It having been remarked, in the course of the debate, by Ge
neral Burgoyne, that the plan of augmenting the forces in the
West Indies, seemed necessarily to imply a correspondent system
of fortification in that quarter, and that some explanation of the
intentions of government upon that point was requisite for the in
formation of the House ; Mr. Pitt avowed that some additional
fortifications, upon a moderate scale, and with a view to render the
military force more efficient, were intended, and were so connected
with the plan of augmenting the land force to be stationed there,
that they might be considered as an indispensable part of it. For
the propriety of this measure, they had not only the sanction of
a board of English general officers, but that of the most eminent

346 IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. fTJec' ' * •
French engineers ; since not only every island belonging to that
nation was fortified, but they also had begun to fortify those
they took from us in the last war, as soon as they came into their
hands. Mr. Fox answered, that what had fallen from the right
honourable gentleman confirmed him more than ever in his
opinion, that it was utterly impossible for the committee to
vote the augmentation proposed, without farther and more
satisfactory explanation. The right honourable gentleman had
told them in a fair and candid way, that a system of fortifica
tion was intended to be adopted in the West Indies. How,
then, was it possible for them to vote at all in the present
case, without their being previously made acquainted with the
extent to which that system was proposed to be carried, and
the amount of the expence it would cost the public ? When
he said this, he did not mean the mere sum to be voted on
account annually, but the total amount at which the com
pletion of the proposed new system was estimated. The right
honourable gentleman's argument, Mr. Fox said, afforded a
strong additional reason for there being in that House a conii-
mander in chief to explain to them, that such a system of in
sular defence as that proposed was necessary.
A division at length took place upon the motion, that 315,865/.
be granted for the forces for the plantations and Gibraltar, for
the year 1788 ; when there appeared, Ayes 242 : Noes 80.

I

Impeachment of Mr. Hastings.
December 11.
N consequence of the order of the House of Lords with which
Mr. Hastings was served towards the close of the last session,
to put in his Answers to the Charges exhibited against him by
the Commons on the first Tuesday after the next meeting of par
liament, on the prescribed day he appeared at the bar, and pre
sented answers. Of these the lords sent a copy to the House of
Commons on the 5th of December. The answers being read short,
pro forma, Mr. Burke moved, " that the said answers be referred
to the consideration of a committee ;" which having been agreed
to, and Mr. Burke being named by Mr. Pitt as the first member,
Mr. Burke then named Philip Francis, Esq., and, upon the question
being put, the House divided, Ayes 23: Noes 97. Mr. Burke, upon
this, rose and declared, that of such material assistance had they
deprived him, in rejecting Mr. Francis, that he scarcely knew
16

I787O IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. 347
how to proceed, and felt the cause to be in some degree damned
by the recent act of the House. He reminded them of the seri
ousness and solemnity of the whole proceeding, a proceeding
which, after deep and frequent deliberation, had been brought,
step by step, to its present advanced stage, and ought to be con
tinued during the remaining part of its progress with equal steadi
ness and uniformity. He admonished the House, that their con-
duct in this very important and grave transaction was a matter
most highly interesting to the national character, and that, conse
quently, they were amenable, for every one of their proceedings
respecting it, at the high and awful tribunal of the public and the
world at large. He pressed them to consider of the dangerous
effect of their appearing in the smallest degree to prevaricate in
the course of the prosecution, and urged the manifest injury and
injustice of changing their committee, and rejecting any one of
the members of the former committee without a reason previously
assigned. The only presumeable reasons for rejecting any one
member of the former committee, could be no other than two ;
either a general disqualification on general grounds, or a personal
disqualification from inability or unfitness to assist in conducting
the prosecution. Both these questions had been already decided,
and the House would have acted wickedly and weakly in suffering
his honourable friend to take so great a part in the proceeding
hitherto, and to have adopted his ideas, if they had judged him to
be disqualified to take a share in the business. The fact was, his
honourable friend was most eminently qualified to assist in the pro
secution ; for through his superior knowledge of it had all the
charge relative to the revenues been made out and established,
and so greatly had he himself been aided and assisted by the in
formation which he had received from his honourable friend, that
he in his honour and conscience declared, he felt himself dis
qualified from conducting the remainder of the prosecution safely
and securely without him. It was for this reason, essential to
himself, and essential to the House, and their joint credit, that
his honourable instructor and associate (for so he might justly
term him) should continue a member of the committee. Why the
House had by their recent vote thought proper to reject the future
assistance of his honourable friend, he was utterly at a loss to
guess ; — that those members who had uniformly expressed a dis
inclination to the prosecution, and in almost every stage of it
endeavoured to put a stop to it, should have made a part of the
majority on the late division was natural enough, because nothing
could be more consistent than for those who had declared themselves
adverse to any prosecution, to endeavour to take away the means
of pursuing it, when once a prosecution was instituted ; but for
many of the gentlemen of another description, who had cordially
co-operated and assisted in the investigation, previous to the mat
ter having assumed the regular shape and form of a criminal pro
cess, to concur in a vote which embarrassed and weakened the
cause, and endangered its ultimate event, was to him a circum
stance altogether, unaccountable. The committee then naming
was not the committee of managers, and therefore not of equal im-

348 IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. [Dec. II.
portance ; but so fully was he convinced of the great utility and
importance of the assistance of his honourable friend, and that he
should feel himself, who knew the subject as well as most men,
so exceedingly crippled and enfeebled without the advantage of
his honourable friend's superior information, that when the day for
naming the next committee should come, he would again appeal to
the sense of the House, and try to have his honourable friend re-in
stated. Mr. Fox followed Mr. Burke, and appealed seriously to the
gentlemen on the other side, upon one particular resulting
from their late vote, by which they had thrown so great a dis
countenance on the prosecution ; and that was, the necessity
of filling the chasm in the committee, which they had occa
sioned by rejecting the only member who, from every con
sideration, appeared to be the most proper to be upon it. Mr.
Fox, therefore, submitted it to the consideration of the other
side of the House, whether it would not be right and be
coming in them to supply the vacancy, by naming from among
themselves some person of acknowledged information upon
the subject. He suggested the right honourable gentleman
at the head of the India board ; but said, that he would agree
to the nomination of any other well-informed gentleman,
whom the other side of the House might consider as a proper
person for their acceptance.
No notice being taken of this address, Mr. Burke proceeded to
nominate the committee, which consisted of the same persons as
the former, with the additition of Mr. Wilbraham, Mr. Fitzpatrick,
and Mr. Courtenay. Mr. Burke then moved, " that the committee
be armed with the usual powers," which was agreed to. On the
Friday following, Mr. Burke brought up from the committee a re
plication to the answers of Mr. Hastings, in which the Commons,
in the usual form, aver their charges against the said Warren
Hastings to be true, and that they will be ready to prove the
same against him, at such convenient time and place as shall be
appointed for that purpose. The replication was ordered, the
next day of sitting, to be carried by Mr. Burke up to the Lords,
who appointed the 13 th of February for proceeding upon the trial
in Westminster-hall.
On the nth of December the House proceeded to appoint the
members of the committee above mentioned to be managers of the
impeachment. After which,
Mr. Fox begged leave to trespass upon the attention of
the House, whilst he adverted to his design of proposing, as
a member of the committee for managing the impeachment at
the bar of the House of Lords, an honourable friend of his
whom the House had approved as a member of the com
mittee to whom the drawing up of the articles of impeach-

1787O IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. 349
ment had been intrusted, but whose nomination as a member
of the committee appointed to consider of the answer to these
articles had been opposed. There must, indeed, be strong
arguments adduced to prove the fitness of the honourable
gentleman to sit as a member of the one committee, and his
unfitness to sit as a member of the other. They were not
now acting as the judges of Mr. Hastings ; they were not even
sitting in the character of a grand jury to decide whether or
not a bill of indictment was to be found against him ; they were
become his prosecutors ; in that capacity they had committed
themselves, and would act with the utmost inconsistency if
they failed to avail themselves of every circumstance and of
every assistance that might give effect to their prosecution.
Whatever objections might be urged to Mr. Francis as
the judge of Mr. Hastings, though for his own part he
neither felt nor admitted their existence, there could be no
possible objection to his appearing as his accuser. To the
character of an accuser, innocence and integrity were indis
pensably necessary. It was requisite that he who preferred
an accusation against another should himself be blameless,
and his reputation unsuspected. That his honourable friend
possessed this reputation was well known to all who heard
him. All knew that he had been sent out to India as one of
the supreme council on account of this reputation, and returned
with the approbation and the confidence of his employers.
But in such a case the testimony of his friends would be in
complete, unless corroborated and confirmed by the testimony
of his enemies. This testimony his honourable friend had
also obtained. By a steady and consistent hostility to the
malversations and corruptions of others, he had provoked the
most rigid scrutiny into his own conduct while in India, and
since his return he had courted, not shunned, inquiry. Had
any discoveries of misconduct on his part been to be made,
they would long since have been before the public, since they
must have come within the knowledge of those who were well
disposed to bring them to light. It was, therefore, fair to con
clude that his character was unimpeachable, since it had not
been impeached, and that he possessed that innocence and
integrity of life and conduct which qualified him to come for
ward as the accuser of another.
It was fit also that an accuser should possess talents. What
the natural abilities of his honourable friend were, it was
needless to state where they were so well known. What his
acquired abilities on the subject of the prosecution were, must
be equally evident from the opportunities he had enjoyed.
It was much to have been in India ; it was much to have
been acquainted with the evasions and tergiversations under

3?3 OfPfeACHJCEST OF )£&. HASTOrGS. !>«. II#
which Mr. Hastings had been accustomed to screen his con
duct. When Cicero came forward as the accuser of Ver res,
what were the arguments he advanced why the proaecution
should be committed to him? " Because,0 said he, " I am
acquainted with the evasions and sophistry of his advocate
HoTtentius. I am accustomed to combat and to overthrow
them." Xor was it V*» requisite that an accuser should entertain
no partiality in favour oi the accused; and not only that
he should entertain no partiality, but that he should not
be indifferent as to the event of the prosecution : that he
shook! be animated with an honest indignation against die
crimes and the criminal whom he attempted to bring tor jus
tice. In the case of a prosecution for murder, where the son
of the person said to have been murdered was the prosecutor,
he made Iris charge and produced his proofs with such seem
ing coolness and indifference, that the judges stopped him by
asking: - Were the facts yon aHedge true? Was tins man
really the murderer of your lather? If you indeed beheved
him inch, you could not possibly go on in this nrernerted
and impartial manner. While, therefore, you address ns in
this trim language, we can give no credit to what yon say."
Even like this nright be die answer of the party accused ; and
such had actually been die answer of Mr. Hastings to die
remonstrance of the court of directors: " If you actually dis
approve of my conduct, yon could not posabry address me in
such gentle terms." If Mr. Francis was supposed to cherish
enmity to Mr. Hastings, it was not enmity to his person, it
was enmity to bis crimes. He was, therefore, from Iris de
testation of those crimes, and hk afaihry to prove them, a pro
per person to become the accuser of Mr. Hastings. There
wes no sueh tiring known as an impartial prosecution in this
country, for although all prosecutions were commenced in
die king's name, it was always the party injured that came
forward in support of them.
As to the merits of Iris honourable friend in other points, it
was enough to say, that if India was to be better governed ;
if die abuses and corruptions that had prevailed in that coun
try were to be corrected; if the honourable gentleman at die
bead of die board of control was able to introduce a purer
and a better system, he must own that his knowledge had
Sowed originally from Mr. Francis. Under diese circum
stances, if his honourable friend was not appointed a mem
ber of the committee, the House must prevaricate and de-
part from a charge which they had already adopted. He bad
with infinite application and ability brought forward the
charge of abuses m die administration of the revenues. By

t787'] IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. 35 1
means of his local and personal knowledge, he had developed
the whole mystery of corruption ; he had enforced it on the
conviction of the House ; he had persuaded an unwilling au
dience — for no man was willing to become an accuser. And
would the House, now that they adopted the accusation and
made it their own, prevent his honourable friend from sup
porting it at the bar of the House of Lords, where he alone
could support it with effect ?
The sole argument which he had ever heard against the
appointment of his honourable friend was, that he had once
had a personal quarrel with Mr. Hastings. Of what weight
was this ? He was not to be the judge, but the accuser of Mr.
Hastings ; and not the only accuser, but an accuser joined
with others. Was he supposed of such authority as to influ
ence the judges ? Were the whole committee of such autho
rity ? The Lords would sit to pass sentence, upon their honour,
hke a jury on their oath ; and Heaven forbid that the united
authority of the Commons of England should influence their
decision ! Were this argument to be allowed of any force,
what a lesson would it teach to all our governors abroad, who
.might dread inquiry into their conduct ? It would be saying
this to them: " You know the persons who have the means
of discovering your mal-administration, you have only to
provoke a private quarrel with them, and they can never af
terwards be suffered to bring a charge against you ; and if
they cannot be admitted as your accusers, much less can they
appear as evidence against you." The truest criterion for
judging on the subject was the circumstance that the prose
cution was to be arranged like other prosecutions, and that
the House having once adopted it as their own, were to
employ the best means of supporting it. His honourable
friend was more conversant in the affairs of India than any
member of that House, and not to avail themselves of his
knowledge and ability, would be a dereliction of their own
cause. If they demanded impartial accusers, who were ac
quainted with the subject of the accusation, where were they
to be found? Not in India, for it afforded not a man who
could be said to be impartial in this cause. And by whom was
Mr. Hastings to be accused — by those who had supported his
measures, or those who had opposed them ? by his friends,
or his enemies ? There were not many accusers from India.
He knew but few from that quarter who could dare to assume
the character, or whose own conduct would stand the test of in
quiry. Under these circumstances, to exclude from the com
mittee the person likely to be the most dangerous accuser,
would have a very pernicious appearance. Next to the power
of chusing, was the power of rejecting accusers; and such fa-

352 EIGHT OF PETITION. [Dec. 12.
vour shewn to him who had abused the authority intrusted to
him, and such discountenance to him who had faithfully done
his duty, would have the effect of making the criminals con
clude themselves in safety, and operate as an unjust and bar
barous restraint upon the innocent. Mr. Fox now moved,
" That Philip Francis, Esq. be added to the managers appoint
ed to manage the impeachment of Warren Hastings, Esq."
The motion occasioned an interesting debate. It was supported
by Mr. Windham, Mr. Sheridan, General Burgoyne, and Mr. Burke;
and opposed by Mr. Pitt, Mr. W. Grenville, Mr. Dundas, and
Major Scott. Mr. Francis, in a very able speech, entered into
an account of his conduct respecting Mr. Hastings, for the last
thirteen years, both in India and England. On a division, the
numbers were Tellers. Tellers.
Yeas f Sir J. Erskine 1 , _N ("Mr. J. J. Hamilton")
ibas | Mr. North S 02> JN0ES | Mr. Steele J I22-
So it passed in the negative.
Committees were afterwards appointed by both Houses to search
the records of parliament, for precedents relative to the mode of
proceeding in trials by impeachment, and the necessary orders were
made for their accommodation in Westminster-hall, for the admis
sion of spectators, the attendance of witnesses, and other matters
respecting the regularity of their proceeding. On the 13 th of
February 1788, the trial commenced, with the usual formalities.
The counsel who appeared for the defendant were Mess. Law,
Plumer, and Dallas. The assistant counsel for the Commons, Dr.
Scott, and Dr. Laurence, Messrs. Mansfield, Pigott, Burke, and
Douglas.

Right of Petition.
December 12.

o1

kN the ioth of December, Mr. Alderman Sawbridge offered to
" present a petition from the several electors of the borough
of Queenborough, setting forth, that for thirty years past works
by the board of ordnance had been carried on there without any
kind of advantage to the public, but for the sole purpose of creat
ing an unconstitutional influence in the borough at elections for
members to serve in parliament ; and praying the House to appoint
a committee, before whom the petitioners pledged themselves to
prove the facts stated in the petition. The Speaker having express
ed some doubts as to the propriety of the petition, as it appeared
to him to be rather in the nature of a complaint, the motion for
bringing up the said petition was rejected. Qri the 1 2th, Mr.

1787O right of petition. - ' 35.3
Sawbridge presented a similar petition to the one which had. been
rejected. It alledged, that the board of ordnance carried on a
branch of the service of their department at Queenborough, at a
much greater expence than was necessary, merely for the purpose
of corruptly influencing the electors of that borough, and by that
means procuring the return in favour of a person belonging to the
ordnance, a circumstance equally improvident in respect to a lavish
and unnecessary expenditure of the public money, and unconsti
tutional, as tending to the destruction of the independance of the
borough, and after stating that this practice haiobtamed for thirty
years, the petitioners pray the House to institute an inquiry into
the facts alledged, and provide such redress as the wisdom of the
House may deem proper; engaging on their parts to prove their
allegations at the bar' of the House. — Mr. Dundas said, that if
the petition had concerned the patrimonial rights of the petitioners,
he should have had no objection to its being received ; but he con
tended, that it was in direct contradiction to the established rules
of the House to receive from private individuals petitions on pub
lic questions which regarded the rights and privileges of parlia
ment. It was no doubt competent to any member of that House
to bring forward any discussion of that nature ; but it was surely
against every precedent to receive the petition in its present shape ;
because it referred to no particular election, but merely stated in
general, that abuses had prevailed in influencing the electors of
Queenborough. If the House were to listen to such vague asser
tions, there would be no end to petitions of that nature. He had
not the least objection to the discussion of the subject ; but he
wished that it should originate from some member of the House,
and not in consequence of the petition of a few individuals.
Mr. Fox observed, that he thought it incumbent on. the
right honourable gentleman rather to state a precedent against
the receiving the present petition, than to call for precedents
in support of the practice ; not but, as there were many bad
precedents on the journals, possibly one might be found in
favour of the right honourable gentleman's argument. There
could not, however, be a worse precedent made, than that
of refusing to receive the present petition, which was, in fact,
not what the right honourable gentleman had termed it, a
petition conveying a general charge, but a petition from pri
vate electors of the borough of Queenborough, complaining
that their rights, as electdrs, were injured, and the indepen
dence of the borough, for a representative of which they were
legally entitled to vote, destroyed ,in consequence of the cor
rupt influence of the board of ordnance over the majority of
the electors of that borough.
Mr. Fox declared, that he knew nothing of the petition be
fore it was brought into the House, but he must and would
contend, that it was in truth and substance such a petition as
VOL. III. A a

354 right of petition. [Dec. 12-
the House ought to receive, being, to all intents and purposes,
a petition complaining of a specific grievance. With regard to-
the argument of the right honourable gentleman, what did it
amount to ? If that House cou'd only act upon petitions, al-
ledging one particular grievance, ana that, perhaps, of an in
significant nature, affecting one or two parties only, and not
upon petitions stating great and broad grievances affecting
many, and that doctrine were avowed, what was it but a de
claration that the House could apply redress in cases of small
grievances only, and not in those where the grievance was cry
ing and enormous ? Would any man who knew and regarded
the powers and privileges of that House, maintain so depre
ciating an argument ? For his part, he did not admire the
manner in which the subject of the present petition had been
treated from its first mention. No man could question the
subjects' right to present petitions to their representatives;
because it was idle to suppose, that when a stipulation had
been made by the bill of rights, that the subjects should, in all
cases, have a right to petition the crown, they had not an equal
right to petition the House of Commons, their own immediate
representatives. He knew but of three objections to the re
ceiving petitions; one, when the petition stated a case in
which that House, from the nature of the thing, had it not
in its power to apply any redress ; a second, when the subject
was of so insignificant and trivial a nature, that it did not
merit any attention ; and a third, where the petition was drawn
up in disrespectful and insulting terms. Within neither of
these descriptions would it be contended that the present peti
tion came: it stated a great and a serious grievance; it prayed
a redress which the House had in its power to remedy, and
which it was peculiarly their province to inquire into; and
lastly, it was drawn up in terms perfectly decent and perfectly
respectful. Mr. Fox said he lamented, and it was always to be la-
merited, that the House should ever refuse to receive a petition,
without a single reason having been assigned for rejecting it.
They had unfortunately done so m the present case on
Monday last. What was the inference ? When a petition
was presented to the House of Commons alledging a griev-
anceaffectiwg the freedom and independence of an election, the
House of Commons refuse to receive the petition ! Was that
a characterthe House ought to draw upon itself? Undoubtedly
it was not; nor would the House, he* was sure, easily endure
it; With regard to the argument that the subject matter of
the 'petition might as well be urged* by a member in his place ;
somight die subject matter of any one petition that ever had
been presented. But, could it be stated with equal' conve-

I787O SIR ELIJAH IMPEY's) COMPLAINT, &C 355
nience and equal effect ? Most certainly it could not. In the
present case, the petitioners undertook, at the risk of the
censure of the House, to make good the allegations of the pe
tition at the bar. Was it equally in the power of a member
to substantiate facts with which he was not at all acquainted ?
Let that House remember, that if the doctrine of abolishing
the receiving private petitions were to obtain, it would be tel
ling the people of England in plain terms, " We will not listen
to your grievances, we will only listen to the grievances of our
own members."
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

Sir Elijah Impey's Complaint of sundry Libels
published against him.
February 8. 1788.
ANOTHER accusation of Indian delinquency was brought be
fore the Commons in the conduct of Sir Elijah Impey. This
task was undertaken by Sir Gilbert Elliot, who, in a very able and
eloquent speech, maintained two general principles ; that India
must be redressed or ldst, and that the only means left of reform
ing Indian abuse, was the punishment, in some great and signal
instances, of Indian delinquency : he stated the nature, the occa
sion, and the purposes of the commission with which Sir Elijah
Impey was sent out to India, as involving circumstances which
were strong aggravations of his guilt, and increased the necessity
of its punishment ; that in the two grand objects which were com
mitted to his charge, the protection of the company from the frauds
of its servants, and of the natives from the oppression of Europeans,
he had, by, corruptly changing sides, added his new powers to the
very force they were intended to control, and taken an active part
in the oppressions which it was his duty to have avenged. Sir
Gilbert Elliot presented to the House six distinct articles of accu
sation, The subject of the first was the trial and execution of
Nundcomar ; the secqnd, the defendant's conduct in a eertain
Patna cause ; the third, intitled extension of jurisdiction, com
prehended various instances, in which the jurisdiction of the court
was alledged to havebeen exercised illegally and oppressively, be
yond the intention of the act and charter ; the fourth charge, in-
titled the Cossijurah cause, though also an allegation of illegal as
sumption, was distinguished by .circumstances so important, as to
become properly the subject of a separate article; the fifth charge
a a 2

356 SIR ELIJAH IMPEY'S COMPLAINT [Feb. 8.
was for his acceptance of the office of judge of the Sudder Dewannee
Adaulut, which was contrary to law, and not only repugnant to the
spirit of the act and charter, but fundamentally subversive of all its
material purposes ; the sixth and last charge related to his conduct
in the province of Oude and Benares, where the chief justice was
said tu have become the agent and tool of Mr. Hastings in the al
leged oppression and plunder of the Begums.
On the 7th of February 1788, Sir Elijah complained to the
House of having been attacked in some daily prints of that and the
preceding day, respecting the answer he had given to the first
charge. Several printers, he said, had offered their services to
him, but he never had paid any attention to them, being fully
determined in his own mind to give no answer to charges ex
hibited against him through those channels, and was resolved to
reserve himself to answer to that House. He now prayed the
House to protect him from the attacks of the papers during the
continuance of his defence. He knew not how to claim that pro
tection, but he doubted not it was in the power of the House to
grant it. The attacks he alluded to, were made in a pamphlet ;
in a morning print of Wednesday ; and in another print of Thurs
day. Mr. W. Grenville said, he was sorry that the complaint had
been made to the House ; but, as it had been formally made, it
was, in his opinion, impossible for the House to pass it over un
noticed ; wishing it therefore to be considered, and at the same
time anxious to prevent its interrupting the business before the
House, he moved, " That the matter of the complaint be taken
into consideration by the House to-morrow." The motion being
agreed to, on the following day, Sir Elijah Impey was called to
the bar, and desired from the chair, to state his complaint. Sir
Elijah then delivered in to the House two newspapers, the one
intitled, " The Morning Herald, Wednesday, February 6. 1788,"
and printed by W. PeiTyman, at No. 18. Catherine Street, in the
Strand ; the other intitled, " The Gazetteer, and New Daily Ad
vertiser, Thursday, February 7. 1788," and printed by M. Say,
at No. 10. in Ave Mary Lane, Ludgate Street. And Sir Elijah
informed the House, that Mr. Debrett, the publisher of the pam
phlet which he yesterday complained of to the House, had, this
morning, given him assurance that the publication thereof should
be immediately put a stop to ; and that therefore he did not desire
to persist in his complaint against the publisher of the said pam
phlet. Sir Elijah having withdrawn, Mr. Grenville stated, that
the newspaper misrepresentations of the proceedings of that House
had, of late, been very frequently complained of, and possibly,
unless some notice were taken of them, they would grow to such
a head, that it would not be in the power of the House to stop
them. He would not then discuss the wisdom or the policy of
taking such measures, as should effectually put an end to their
future progress, but would mention a few observations necessary
to be considered on the present occasion. He then remarked,
that it had generally been deemed most expedient for individual
members of that House to pass over the freedoms daily taken with
their names, and to treat them with indifference. Unless in very
12

1788.] OF LIBELS PUBLISHED AGAINST HIM. 357
enormous instances, a variety of reasons might be alleged in illus
tration of the good sense and propriety of this practice. In the
first place, gentlemen had the testimony of their own consciences
to support them, and while they were satisfied that they acted
from good and virtuous motives, the imputation of undue motives
for their conduct, was a matter that only merited their contempt ;
or if what they said was misrepresented, the mis-statement could
not be of long duration, as every gentleman had it in his power,
in a very short time, to do himself justice in the most effectual
manner. There were other obvious arguments that might re
concile individuals to the liberties taken with their names and
characters ; but he had great doubts, whether the same arguments
would apply to the House collectively. It was of importance that
the people should be induced to look up to that House with respect
and confidence, and on that account, it might be extremely inex
pedient ever to pass over this attempt to weaken that confidence,
or to diminish that respect. But there was a third point of view
in which the House could not consistently assume any discretion,
whatever, and that was the sort of case then under contemplation.
The case of a person answering at the bar to different charges of
high crimes and misdemeanors, who, while his defence was pend
ing, had found it necessary to claim the protection of the House
against the attacks of libellous writers in the newspapers, and had
formally complained of two specific libels, which he had that day
exhibited. Having expatiated on these three distinct views of
newspaper libels, affecting the proceedings of the House of Com
mons, and improperly interfering with them ; and on the peculiar
case of Sir Elijah Impey, who had been sent to India thirteen
years since, in an office of great trust and confidence, and had
been brought back to answer to charges, of which, if it should
appear that he had been guilty, he was the greatest criminal in
existence, Mr. Grenville observed, that in a few days his guilt
or innocence was to be decided, and dwelt upon the dangerous
effect that a temporary libel might have upon his cause, and the
necessity of keeping the minds of those who were to determine
unbiassed and free from prejudice. Having urged this point, as
well as Sir Elijah's right to claim the. protection of the House,
Mr. Grenville- proceeded to advert to the sort of punishment
usually resorted to by the House, whenever it felt it necessary to
exert its authority for the maintenance of its own dignity, and
the defence of its privileges. That the House had an inherent
constitutional right of punishing those who violated its privileges,
or treated its authority with contempt, and that it made a part of
the common law, no man who had at all considered the subject,
could be ignorant. On the present occasion, however, it was not
his intention to exercise the powers of the House. At a period,
when the judges of the courts of law had been dependent on the
crown, when the source of justice was foul and corrupt, and when
the improper exercise of the prerogative of the crown was to be
dreaded, the House had wisely and judiciously made use of its own
power to attack and to punish those who had ventured to incur
its displeasure ; but the times were now different, the judges had
a A 3

3§& MB ELIJAH DUET'S COJIFIiAIHT [Teb. 8.
been made independent oftbe power of the crown, and had nothing
to expect and nothing to dread from that quarter. The coons of
law, therefore, were pore, and free from afl colour of suspicion.
It was, for that reason, better to have recourse to die law of the
land in cases like that before them, than to the law of parliament.
Mr. Grenville next reminded the House of die sense the court of
king's bench had already expressed of die impropriety of pub
lications relative to any matter in process, or likely to come to
trial, by mentioning the case of the justices in Bow-street, against
whom the late Mr. Wallace moved the court for an information,
for their having published accounts of the public examination of
the prisoners, when die court AtvifpeA the justices were liable,
because such previous publications might prejudice men upon
their trial, He stated tins to shew, that the mode of prosecution
which he proposed was that best adapted to the nature of the
case, and baring enlarged upon that point, he concluded with
moviDg, " That the said papers contain a scandalous libel, grossly
reflecting on this House and the members thereof, and tending to
prejudice die defence of a person answering at die bar to articles
of high crimes and misdemeanors against han by a member of this
House." Should this preliminary motion be agreed to, Mr. Gren
ville said, he would move to address his majesty, that he would
give orders to die attorney-general to prosecute the authors,
printers, and publishers oftbe papers complained o£
Mr. Fox remarked, that be could not avoid expressing bis
agreeable surprise to bear an argument in favour of the au
thority and of the privileges of that House come from die
quarter from which it bad proceeded. He was glad to find,
Aat those who bad got into power by amsfpr means, who
had obtained their situations in direct contempt of the con
fidence of the House of Commons, after they had been some
time seated, thought it necessary to kick down die ladder by
which they rose, and affect at least to treat the House with
becoming respect, and to talk of the necessity of that House
always preserving the confidence of the people. In what
[manner, however, had the right honourable gentleman now
proposed to enforce the authority of that House? He had
stated that the House of Commons possessed an inherent,
constitutional right of punishing those who incurred a con.
tempt, or were guilty of a breach of its privileges. Such a
right the House nndonbtedly possessed, and if ever there
was a case that particularly called fbr the exertion of it, this
was the very case. He was ready to admit, that the publi
cation complained of, was a very irregular and improper
mterference with the proceedings of that House. It ought,
dierefbre, to be taken notice of: it ought to be pmrishedT
But how? Not io the way die right honourable gentleman
bad proposed, sot by address to h* majesty, to order his
ti

1788.] OF LIBELS PUBLISHED AGAINST Hrttf. . 359
attorney-general to prosecute, but by an exertion of their
own powers, and their own powers only.
Mr. Fox analysed the article complained of, and asked,
if it contained any general libel on the government of the
country, or any thing of a public nature, that pointed out
prosecution in the court of King's Bench, as the frt and pro
per mode of prosecution ? The whole drift and tendency of
it was to interfere with the proceedings of that House, touch*
ing the defence of Sir Elijah Impey. Why, then, would the
House, in a case so immediately relating; to its own concerns,
appeal to the crown for aid ? It was a curious inconsistency
tor the right honourable gentleman to argue upon the con
stitutional powers of the House to assert its own rights
and maintain its own privileges, and then in a case of breach
of privilege, and breach of privilege purely, to abandon those
constitutional powers, and resort to the powers of the crown.
Mr. Fox contended that such an improper mode of prose
cution led much farther than gentlemen possibly imagined,
and might ultimately carry their privileges, the privileges of
the House of Commons, to be decided upon by the House of
Lords ! He commented on the eagerness to prosecute which
had in this instance been evinced, and said, the House had
not shewn as much attention to its own members as they had
done to Sir Elijah Impey. Were not their own committees
equally sacred? And yet they well knew, that libel after libel
had been published against the reports of their committees,
and they had all seen a bill of charges for the insertion, in a
public newspaper, of a series of libels on the proceedings of
that House, and on the conduct and characters of several of
its members. With regard to the article at present com
plained of, he should hardly think, that, had the argumenta
tive part of it merely appeared, any man would have thought
of moving a prosecution. The improper phrases with which
it was accompanied, and the indecent comments upon the
proceedings of that House undoubtedly he should not have
used, nor ought they to be countenanced ; but the argumen
tative part, that about the jurisdiction, he had no scruple to
say coincided nearly with his own opinion. He urged the ne
cessity, in a case so peculiarly their own, to keep it within
their own jurisdiction ; and reminded the House, that when
once they committed the prosecution to the law courts, they
had no farther command of it, and however inclined they
might be to shew lenity, they would not have it their power.
He asked if any person could tell him that a breach of the pri
vileges of that House could be made a count in any informa
tion or indictment ? He declared he believed that it could
not, and contended against the absurdity of punishing the
a a 4

360 snt elltah imfbt's comflaikt QFeb. 8.
contempt of one court in another court, and of adopting that
mode of prosecuting a complaint which was of all modes die
least adapted to the nature of it. Mr. Fox also hinted at die
late sentence against Lord George Gordon in the court of
king's bench as being inordinately severe, and assigned that,
among others, as a reason why die House should not be too
eager to carry its contempts into Westminster-Hall to be pu
nished, when it was generally admitted, that they had the
power of punishing them in their own hands.
Mr. Fox was ably supported by Mr. Burke, and Mr. William
Adam. Mr. Fitt said that no man could question the undoubted
right of that House to assert their own privileges, and to punish
those who should dare to infringe them ; and contended that no
mode could be adopted more constitutional, none more regular
and proper, than that suggested in die motion before them. It
was, indeed, true, that in times of confusion and notorious cor
ruption, when the sources of justice were manifestly vitiated, and
the crown exercised an unlawful authority over the courts of law,
the House had found it expedient to take cognizance of those
breaches of privilege, and to do themselves justice ; but the more
frequent, as well as the most advisable and constitutional method
was that proposed by his right honourable friend. For his own
part, he could declare that no man respected the privileges of
that House more than he did, or would go farther to vindicate
diem ; but he always thought that where a remedy might be ob
tained by common law, and in the ordinary course, it was neither
prudent, wise, nor proper, to resort to extraordinary means : and
such, with all the ingenuity that had been employed to perplex
the question, he must consider that to be which was insisted on by
gentlemen on the other side of die House. Cases had occurred
in which the House had committed themselves upon the very same
ground with that now so much insisted on, and in which they found
themselves not a little embarrassed how to act. He, for one at
least, was ready to confess that he did not know of any power with
which that House was invested to compel the attendance of any
of those parties, supposing they thought proper to refuse "ap
pearing. The libel was generally acknowledged to be very gross;
nor was there any difference of sentiment, but m the most expe
dient mode of punishing those that were guilty of it. He could
not, however, but- remark, that it appeared a. little extraordinary
in the same persons who agreed in the condemnation of it, to adopt
and sanctify the most obnoxious parts in their speeches in that
House. On this occasion, they even went farther, and would fain
deny all protection to 'the gentleman who appeared at their bar in
a predicament, which, of all others, entitled him to it the most.
That protection he would most undoubtedly feel disposed to ex-
- tend towards him, as far as a sense of justice, and his duty as a
.member of parliament required. By those parts of a paragraph
which affected him personally, he trusted that no gendeman would
suppose be was at all influenced. He disregarded every thing of

I788.] OF LIBELS PUBLISHED AGAINST HIM. 361
that kind so entirely, that he would not give it a moment's consi
deration. That was no reason, however, why he should not en
force what he conceived to be justice to the dignity and authority
of the House, as well as to the individual who had exhibited the
complaint. Mr. Fox claimed the indulgence of the House, whilst he
explained himself upon some of the points which had been
advanced by the chancellor of the exchequer. And first, he
felt it his duty to repel the imputation which had been cast on
him, and on his friends who had espoused his side of the
question. He trusted that no man, who was at all acquainted
with his sentiments or character, would be induced to believe
that he was a friend to libels or libellers. What he had thrown
out with respect to the article in question bore no such ap
pearance, and he would repeat, that on a review of the nume
rous paragraphs of a personal' and libellous nature, with which
the press teemed every day, that would be found one of the ?
least obnoxious, nor did he condemn it any farther than as it
interfered with the proceedings of the House. With respect
to the doctrine laid down, he thought it perfectly fair and ra
tional, and the reasoning perfectly just. Thus far he adopted
it, but he begged it might be fully understood he did not
hold the opinion, that because members in that House
might, not only with propriety and strict regard to their
duty, hold certain language, and declare certain sentiments
upon any topic under their consideration, the public
prints were warranted in giving them to the world at large.
The freedom of speech he considered as the first and most
essential privilege of parliament, inseparable from its dig
nity and well being, and he could easily imagine many
cases in which it would be a gross libel and breach of privi
lege in a newspaper, to publish such words as he might find
it necessary to make use of in his place. Still, he continued
of the same mind as to the mode of proceeding which the
House ought to adopt on the present occasion. He thought
that as the article complained of could be punishable only in
as much as it was a contempt of the House in its inquisitorial
capacity, no other tribunal could take cognizance of it; and
upon this he wished to have the opinion of the attorney-gene
ral, who could not, according to his notion, draw up either
an information or indictment, so as to introduce the breach of
privilege properly into one count. It also deserved the serious
consideration of those with whom the motion originated, that
the House would, by the procedure they proposed, be de
prived of all power of proportioning the quantum of punish
ment to the nature of the offence ; they would be left without

362 SIR ELIJAH imfey's comhjukt [Feb. 8.
redress, should the sentence indicted be too light and inade
quate, and they would be equally deprived of the power erf
pardon supposing that sentence too severe. For his own part,
he was much averse to prosecutions for libels, chiefly because
the sentence was frequently disproportioned to the crime, and
this opinion was confirmed by the recent instance which had
been alluded to. There did not appear to his mind a remedy
which the House could apply, supposing, on conviction, the
parties now complained of should be condemned to a similar
punishment. He begged to clear himself from having uttered any thing
by way of insinuation against that learned body which had
been spoken of; it was not in the way of insinuation, — -a species
of accusation not very congenial to his nature, — that he threw
out what he had expressed about them ; he urged it as matter
of direct charge, nor would he receive the very flimsy apology
which had been set up in their behalf; he would not pay so ill
a compliment to the lawyers of this country as to suppose they
were not as competent to pronounce upon the general princi
ples of government as they were to speak to local points or
municipal customs. But, in the case of Mr. Hastings parti
cularly, such apology could not be listened to, because it was
thought a defence founded upon legal objections in all its
stages. He did not mean to condemn their attendance at pre
sent as any way culpable. He meant only to shew that their
non-attendance on the former occasion ought to be looked
upon as a dereliction of their duty. Probably the annals of
the country could not furnish an instance of an important
public prosecution being carried on without the concurrence
and countenance of die great law officers of the crown; and he
was sorry to witness a disposition in them to interfere only
when their interference was likely to check, rather than assist,
those who had the public justice of their country at heart.
Mr. Fox concluded by saying, that if die House should be
of opinion to proceed to the punishment of the printers, he
thought it much more advisable, and much more becoming
their dignity, to order the attorney-general in their own name
to commence the prosecutions, than to go up to the throne
with an address to thateffect. After what they had seen, at
a period not very remote, what assurance could they have
that the address would meet with due attention ? Considering
how the addresses of that House had been treated on former
occasions, how could they flatter themselves that die right
honourable gentleman opposite to him would counsel his ma
jesty to comply with their request ? This was a consideration
that merited attention, not that he thought die minister would
be at all inclined to withhold his consent on this occasion, or

1788.] OF LIBELS PUBLISHED AGAINST HIM. 363
to advise the crown to reject the address oftbe House of Com
mons in any thing which did not thwart his own ambition, or
counteract any of his favourite measures.
The first motion being agreed to, the House divided on the se
cond, viz. " That an humble address be presented to his majesty,
humbly desiring his majesty that he will be graciously pleased to
give directions to his attorney-general to prosecute the author or
authors, the printer or printers, and the publisher or publishers, of
the said libels, in wi dor that they may be brought to condign pu
nishment for the same."
Tellers. Tellers.
v A f Mr. W.W. Grenville 1 XT f Mr. Adam 1
Yeas JMr. Rolle } ">9— Noes jsh. j E^m^ 37.
So it was resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. Fox's Complaint or a Pamphlet respecting the
Impeachment against Mr. Hastings.

Februaiy 14.

M]

rR. Fox rose, and begged leave to remind the House that
its attention had been very lately called to a complaint
against a libel, and that, on that occasion, the right honour
able gentleman who had stood forward to desire them to pu
nish a breach of their privileges, had, in the course of his
speech, observed, that it had been generally thought, that
when a libel on individuals was issued and published, it was
most wise to pass it over without notice, unless the case were
of a very flagrant nature indeed ; but, the right honourable
gentleman had expressed great doubt whether a similar line of
conduct was proper to be pursued when a libel was published
against the House of Commons collectively, and against their
honour and dignity as a branch of the legislature, To these
opinions, Mr. Fox said, no man could more fully subscribe
than himself; but there was a possibility for a case to arise,
equally, if not more strong, than that of the third case stated
by the right honourable gentleman; namely, that of Sir
Elijah Impey, a man answering at their bar to accusations,
and claiming the protection of the House. To that claim ihe
House, undoubtedly, did right to pay attention, because to
have denied it, would have been to all appearance a refusal

364 MR. POX's COMPLAINT OF A PAMPHLET [Feb. 14.
of justice, where justice was indispensably due. The still
stronger case, to which he alluded, had not been stated by
the right honourable gentleman on Friday last, and indeed
it was not possible for it to have offered itself as any part of
the right honourable gentleman's argument. It was that of a
libel on a committee appointed by the House to conduct a pro
secution by impeachment, and consequently a prosecution of
the most grave and solemn nature, because it put the person
accused upon his trial before the supreme and most august
tribunal recognized by the constitution, namely, the high
court of parliament.
The minds of gentlemen having been so lately roused to an
attention- to libels, it was reasonable to suppose that they had
considered the subject much more fully than, for a long time
past, they had accustomed themselves to do. He trusted,
therefore, that the complaint he had to state would not be
deemed trivial in its nature ; and as the House could never
wish it to be understood, that they were eager to punish libel
lers of one party, but unwilling to punish libellers of another, and
as he was sure the House felt no such sentiment or desire, he was
persuaded the House coincided in opinion with him, that it
was incumbent on them to teach the libellers of their proceed
ings, in a matter of the most serious and important nature,
that when a complaint was made of their publication, and that
publication was found to deserve punishment, they would not
suffer it to escape. ,
Mr. Fox now observed, that a pamphlet had been put into
his hands, which, although it had escaped his notice, he un
derstood had been published nearly a fortnight. It contained
a gross and scandalous libel on the committee appointed by that
House to manage the prosecution of Mr. Hastings, as well as
a libel upon the House itself, upon his majesty, and upon the
whole legislature. With regard to the reflections on himself,
personally, and on his friends, who were members of the com
mittee, he certainly did not, on that account, stand forward
to complain of the pamphlet. It likewise, in terms of great
licentiousness, made free with the right honourable gentleman
opposite him, but the right honourable gentleman, he was
persuaded, would not expect it from him, that he should state
that it was on that account that he complained of it to the
House ; undoubtedly it was not. The true cause of his urg
ing a complaint against the pamphlet was, that it tended to
degrade that House, his majesty, and the House of Lords, in
the eyes of the public, and to hold forth the whole legislature
as acting upon base and improper motives on a subject, in
which, of all others, it behoved them to act on the purest
principles, and with the strictest regard to impartial justice.

I788.]. ON THE IMPEACHMENT 01' MR. HASTINGS. 365
That the House of Commons had done so was Well known,
and that . the other branches of the legislature would govern
themselves by the same purity of motive, there could not exist
a doubt in airy man's mind. The House ought not, there
fore, to suffer it to be insinuated from the press, pending the
proceeding, that the contrary was either likely or probable.
Having thus generally stated the ground of his complaint,
Mr. Fox observed, that he held the pamphlet of which he
complained in his hand, and although he would not aim at
entertaining the House with reading such parts of the pub
lication as were more remarkable for their absurdity of ar
gument than for their libellous tendency, he would just read
those passages that contained libellous reflections, of the
nature he had already stated. He now read the following
passage: " Such an exertion of public virtue (the impeach
ment of Mr. Hastings) if to public virtue it shall be referred,
is indeed ' above, .all Greek, above all Roman fame,' and
will furnish a memorable example to future times, that no
station, however exalted ; no abilities, however splendid ; no
services, however beneficial or meritorious ; that not even the
smile of the sovereign, nor the voice of the people, can pro
tect a British subject from impeachment, and a public de
linquent from punishment, if found guilty." Mr. Fox com
mented on this extract, and said, it was beyond all doubt
highly indecent to impute it to that House to have been
governed in their impeachment of Mr. Hastings by so im
proper a motive, as a design to thwart the wishes of the
sovereign. The House had not entertained any such design,
nor was it known, in modern history at least, that the House
had ever acted on so unbecoming a principle.
Mr. Fox next called the attention of the House to the fol
lowing quotation : " Will accusations built on such a baseless
fabric, prepossess the public in favour of the impeachment ?
What credit can we give to multiplied and accumulated
charges, when we find that they originate from misrepresen
tation and falsehood? The decision of the House of Com
mons on the Benares charge against Mr. Hastings is one
of the most singular to be met with in the annals of parlia
ment. The minister, who was followed by the majority,
vindicated him in every thing he had done, and found him
blameable only for what he intended to do ; justified every
step of his conduct, and criminated his proposed intention of
converting the crimes of the zemindar to the benefit of the
state, by a fine of fifty lacks of rupees. An impeachment of
error in judgment with regard to the quantum of a fine, and.
for an intention* that never was executed, or ever known to
the offending party, characterises a tribunal inquisition rather

366 MR. FOX'S COMPLAINT OF A PAMPHLET [Feb. 1 4.
than a court of parliament. The other charges are so insig
nificant in themselves, or founded on such gross misrepresen
tation, that they would not affect an obscure individual, much
less a public character. They are merely added to swell the
catalogue of accusations, as if the boldness of calamity could
ensure its success, and a multiplicity of charges an accumula
tion of crimes. Thirteen of them passed the House of Com
mons not only without investigation, but without being read;
and the votes were given without inquiry, argument, or con
viction. A majority had determined to impeach; opposite
parties met each other, and jostled in the dark, to perplex
the political drama, and bring the hero to a tragic catastrophe.
If to all the metaphysical misdemeanors which have been im
puted to Mr. Hastings, he had added one real crime ; had
he thrown his weight into the scale of opposition, and vio
lated the principles of duty and allegiance which he has ever
maintained to his sovereign, the same broad shield of pa
triotism which protected American delinquents, would havo
covered the governor of India from every hostile attack.
Has attachment to principle, has loyalty to the sovereign,
become such a crime as to cancel the merit, and obliterate
the service of thirty years ?" On this occasion Mr. Fox re
marked, that Mr. Hastings was represented as being pro
secuted on account of his loyalty to his sovereign; but in
what did that loyalty consist? Could the man who had abused
his authority, and disobeyed the orders of those under whom
he acted, be said to be loyal ? He would just read one more
passage, which shewed, that the author was not only an ad
vocate of Mr. Hastings, but of tyranny in general : "It is
on this principle that the royal family of Stuart have been
fully vindicated by the retrospect of history, and justified to
the conscience of mankind." Mr. Fox added, that he was
far from meaning to say, that the pamphlet-writer's account
of the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer's
speech was at all correct. He read the passage merely to
shew the sort of construction that the author had thought
proper to put upon the proceedings of that House. Mr.
Fox contended that the libeller, in this pamphlet, not only
imputed to a particular party a degree of power and influence
over that House, which the event of almost every day's pro
ceedings sufficiently manifested that they did not possess, but
held it out to the world, that loyalty to the sovereign was a
leading cause for that House to proceed to impeachment.
The imputation in the latter point was not only false; as an
imputation, but false in every other respect, because, if a man
sent out to India, clothed with authority and extraordinary
powers, chose to debase that authority, to misdirect those

1788.] ON THE IMPEACHMENT OF MR. HASTINGS. 367
powers, and by his conduct to sully the character and de
grade the dignity of the British nation, he not only could
not be said to have acted with loyalty to his sovereign, but
was in fact the most disloyal subject that could possibly be
described. Mr. Fox saidj he was rather at a loss what motion to make,
as to the mode most proper for the House to adopt for the
punishment of the libeller. His doubts remained in full
force with respect to the mode chosen by the House for the
punishment of the libellers complained of on the preceding
Friday. He thought then, as he had on that day declared
it to be his Opinion, that the way proposed by the right
honourable gentleman who had made the motion to pro
secute by the attorney-general, was an improper way of pro
ceeding. It might not be so improper in the case of the
complaint he had stated. The former libel was of a peculiar
kind. Excepting its being an improper interference with
the proceedings of that House, and therefore a breach of
privilege, it contained scarcely any thing at all libellous.
In regard to the pamphlet from which he had read extracts,
it was of the most pernicious tendency, being a gross attack
on that House, on the House of Lords, on his majesty,
and consequently on the whole legislature. It was, therefore,
in the truest sense of the words, a public libel, and for that
reason a prosecution by the attorney-general might be the
most proper mode of proceeding to punish ; but, entertain
ing still the opinion that he did of the mode adopted by the
House last Friday, and which, in point of fact, he was war
ranted to consider as the mode most approved of by the
House, he would leave it to those, who were likely to be in
possession of the opinion of the House, as to the mode of
punishment most proper to be pursued. He then delivered
in the pamphlet, which was intitled, " A Review of the prin
ciple Charges against Warren Hastings, Esq. Printed for
John Stockdale, Piccadilly," and moved, " That the said
pamphlet contains passages highly disrespectful to his ma
jesty and to this House, and indecent observations reflecting
upon the motives which induced this House to prefer the
impeachment against Warren Hastings, Esq., late governor
general of Bengal."
Mr. Pitt agreed that the pamphlet contained libellous matter,
but suggested the propriety of suffering it to remain on the table
for a day. Mr. Fox concurred in the propriety of the suggestion^
ancl therefore moved, " That the said complaint be taken into con
sideration on the following day." WhenMr.Pitt proposed an amend
ment to the motion, by leaving out the words " his majesty, and."

368 East india declaratory bill. [Feb. 25.
The motion, as amended, being agreed to, Mr. Fox immediately
rose, and declared that he still entertained his opinion, that unless
in cases of public libel, or of a libel on the government at large,
or legislature collectively, he did not think it becoming in that
House to resort to the crown lawyers, as .the instruments of pro
secuting libels affecting themselves, interfering with their pro
ceedings, or implicating a breach of their privileges. He then
moved, " That an humble address be presented to his majesty,
humbly desiring his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to
give directions to his attorney-general, to prosecute the author
or authors, the printer or printers, and the publisher or publishers,
of the said pamphlet, in order that they may be brought to condign
punishment for the same." The motion was agreed to nem con. *

East India Declaratory Bill.
February 25.
DURING the apprehensions, which had existed in the course
of the last year, of a rupture with the court of France, go
vernment had taken a resolution of sending out four additional
regiments to India, on board the company's ships, for the pro
tection of our possessions in that quarter ; and the proposition
had been received with general approbation by the court of di
rectors. But in the mean time the storm having blown over, and
government still adhering to their resolution of sending out the
four regiments, with' a view to form a permanent establishment
of his majesty's troops in India, a question had arisen respecting
the expence of sending them out, and of their future payment.
By an act, which passed in the year 1781, it was stipulated, that
the company should be bound to pay for such troops only as were
sent to India upon their requisition, and upon this act the direc
tors had refused to charge the company with the expence of the
troops in question. But it was contended by the board of con-
troul, established in the act of 1784, that the commissioners of

* On the 9th of December 1789, the trial of Mr. Stockdale for the said
libel came on in the court of king's bench, before Lord Kenyon. After
a trial of three hours, the jury withdrew for about two hours, when they
returned into court with a verdict, finding the defendant not guilty. Mr.
Stockdale's defence was entrusted to Mr. Erskine, who upon this occasion
is acknowledged to have delivered one of the most able and eloquent
speeches that was ever heard in a court of justice. See the speeches of
the Honourable Thomas Erskine (now Lord Erskine) when at the bar, on
subjects connected with the liberty of the press, and against constructive
treasons, Vol.a. p.»05.

1 788-] EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. 369
that board were invested with a power of directing, in case of a
refusal of the company, such expence to be, defrayed out of the
revenues arising from their territorial possessions. Upon this case
the court of directors had taken the advice of several eminent law
yers, who were of opinion that the board of control was riot in
vested, by the act of 1784, with the power contended for; and
the directors had accordingly refused to take the troops on board
the ships that were about this time -to sail for India. Upon this1
ground Mr. Pitt moved, on the 25th of February, " That leave ¦
be given to bring in a bill for removing any doubt respecting the
powers of the commissioners for the affairs of India, to direct that
the expence of raising, transporting, and maintaining such troops
as may be judged necessary for the security of the British territories
and possessions in the East Indies, should be defrayed out of the
revenues arising from the said territories and possessions."
Mr. Fox declared, that he had no scruple to affirm, that he
was ready to give his negative even to the motion for leave
to bring in the bill proposed, on the principle that sufficient
ground had not been laid before the House to prove the ne
cessity for any such bill. The right honourable gentleman
well knew. that the opinions of counsel upon an existing
act of parliament was not a fit ground for the introduction
of a declaratory bill. If such opinions did form a fit ground
for any such bill, there would be no end to passing declara
tory laws, because as counsel generally differed in their
opinion, there was not an act on the statute book as to the
construction of which different opinions would not be given.
Declaratory act upon* declaratory act would, therefore, be
passed and multiplied ad infinitum. Where the judges had
expressed a doubt of any law from the bench, and a judicial
opinion had been delivered in court of the construction of a
statute, that was held to be a fit ground to introduce a bill
to explain and amend such statute, but no other ground ought
to be taken. Mr. Fox farther observed, that the chancellor
of the exchequer had himself declared that the bill of 1784
was sufficiently explicit to render any declaratory bill un
necessary, and yet he had followed up that declaration
with moving to bring in the very sort of bill, which he had
given it as his opinion was unnecessary. This was treating
the opinion of the right honourable gentleman's two learned
friends rather cavalierly, because it was to act upon the opi
nion of those who had professed to entertain doubts of the
construction of the bill of 1784, and to pass by the opinions
of the attorney and solicitor general against there being any
ground for doubt, as opinions of little importance. He stated
the difference which he, conceived to exist between the bill of
1784, as now explained, by the chancellor of the exchequer,
VOL. III. B B '

37° EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. [Feb. 25.
and the India bill which he himself had brought into the
House, and about which so much had been said within those
walls. By «his bill, he meant to suspend for a time the powers
of the court of directors, and to lodge them in certain com
missioners nominated by parliament, and not removable at
the pleasure of the crown ; except in consequence of an ad
dress from either House of parliament. But the India bill
of the right honourable gentleman empowered his majesty
to appoint a board of superintendency and controul remove-
able at his pleasure.
Mr. Fox remarked, that the India bill which he had the
honour to propose was so offensive to the right honourable
gentleman that he had exhausted upon it every epithet of
obloquy which the English language could afford, describ
ing it as a violation of chartered rights, and a most illegal
and unwarrantable assumption of all the powers of the di
rectors. For the first time, it had that day been ventured to
be publicly avowed, that the right honourable gentleman's
India bill put the commissioners of the board of control in
possession of all the powers of directing the military and
political concerns of India, and of collecting, managing, and
applying of all the revenues of India, which the court of di
rectors enjoyed previous to the passing of the act of 1784.
The right honourable gentleman's bill, as it was now ex
plained, vested the privileges of the East India company,
with respect to the management of their own affairs, for ever
in the immediate servants of the crown, who were remove-
able at pleasure. The right honourable gentleman had de
clared the authority of the board of control to extend to the
application of every shilling of the company's revenues, but
it left the directors in possession of — what ? The manage
ment and direction of the commerce — the direction of that
which could not exist, but at the pleasure of the board of
control ! If the board should think proper to apply the whole
revenues of India to the maintenance of troops, or to any
other purpose, what would remain for making an investment ?
Nothing. The directors were, therefore, left in possession
of power to manage where there might be nothing to ma
nage — to direct a commerce without the means of support
ing it. If this was not annihilating every right of the com
pany, he knew not what was annihilation. But such ap
peared to be the right honourable gentleman's regard and
veneration for chartered rights at the time of passing the
bill, that the bare mention of violating or infringing them
was not to be endured. He appealed to the recollection of
every member present, whether in the present or the former
parliament, such an explanation of the meaning and extent

I788.] EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. 37 1
of the right honourable gentleman's bill had ever been sug
gested by those who supported it, as he had now himself
given ? In conclusion, Mr. Fox recurred to his former po
sition, that the motion ought to be negatived, because no
fit ground of the necessity of a declaratory bill had been
mentioned, even distantly, during the whole course of the
debate. Leave was given to bring in the bill.

March 5.
The motion for going into a committee on the bill was opposed
by Sir Grey Cooper, Colonel Barrg, Colonel Fullarton, Mr. She
ridan, Mr. Bastard, Mr. Pulteney, and Mr. Fox ; and supported by
Mr. John Scott, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Grenville, and Mr. Dundas.
Mr. Fox in a most powerful speech concluded the debate.
He began by charging Mr. Dundas with having spoken for
three hours and a half, without having said any thing to the
question. He then ridiculed that right honourable gentle
man's mode of defending the board of control from the
charges of different attempts to interfere with the patronage
of the company ; declaring, that what the right honourable
gentleman had himself said, rather proved the charges. Ac
cording to his own account, the board, instead of exercising
its proper functions, had assumed those of the court of di
rectors. Mr. Fox, with great humour, explained, why he
understood this. He then warmly combated Mr. Dundas's
arguments in defence of the measure, and contended that
it was a direct endeavour to take into the hands of the board
of control all the powers and patronage of the East India
company. He spoke of the nomination and appointment
of Lord Cornwallis and Sir Alexander Campbell, and said
it was well known whose nomination and appointment both
of them were. He -drew a parallel between his bill and that
of Mr. Pitt, avowing that his design had been openly stated
to be a design to suspend the rights, functions, privileges,
and patronage of the court of directors for four years, and
to lodge them in a board of commissioners, thinking it more
safe experimentally to place the influence arising from the'
exercise of such powers, where there was no other influence^
rather than to add it to the influence of the crown, where
so much influence was already placed. He stated that all-
the proceedings of this board were to be open, and in the
face of day, thinking the publicity of all their proceedings
B B 2

37^ EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. [March 5.
the best check that could possibly be devised to counteract
the degree of influence they were necessarily to possess. The
ground of his bill, as stated in its preamble, was gross abuse
of power, and an incapacity to retrieve the affairs of the com
pany. Both the one and the other were now fully admitted.
The professed ground of Mr. Pitt's bill had been the consent
of the court of directors. That ground was obtained origi
nally on false pretences, and was now done away completely
by the conduct and avowal of the directors themselves. He
thanked Mr. Bastard and Mr. Pulteney for their able and
impartial support of that day. The speech of the latter, he
said, did that gentleman the highest honour, since while he
disapproved the measure, he had with liberality and candour
done full justice to the ability and industry of the chairman
of the board of control, and those abilities of the chancellor
of the exchequer that were, he said, known and admired all
over the world. He mentioned that it had been understood
that Mr. Pulteney was the author of a very able pamphlet
against his bill, that had done him much prejudice in the
eyes of mankind. In that pamphlet the assumption of the
patronage of the East India company was chiefly contended
against. It was therefore peculiarly consistent and fair in the
honourable gentleman to oppose the declaratory bill on the
same principle. To Mr. Pulteney, he said, he was under
many political obligations, but he must renounce even that
gentleman's valuable support and countenance, .if given him
under the idea that he retracted his error, as it was called,
or apologized for his India bill in any the smallest degree :
it ever had been, and ever would be, his pride and his boast :
and as that day had wiped away much of the odium of it, he
did not doubt but the period would arrive when the pre
judice of the public would be cleared completely, and it
would be regarded in its true light as a strong, but as a
necessary and a just measure. He reprobated the declara
tory bill as an insidious attempt to assume the same powers
that his bill would have given to his board of commissioners,
but in a manner less open and much more dangerous to the
constitution  He said it was the boast of our laws, that
the meanest individual was, in a court of justice, upon a level
with the highest, his rights being equally protected. It was
the boast of our laws, that the first law officer of the crown
could have no undue influence or unfair advantage over the
lowest character in the kingdom. It was the boast of our
laws, that the influence even of the prime minister of the
kingdom had no avail over the most helpless individual. It
was the boast of our laws, that the king himself had no
influence which could prejudice the right of the subject in

I788.] EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. 373

*¦

a court of justice. But the case was otherwise with decla
ratory bills. A declaratory bill, when it explained the rights
of individuals, was not so dangerous ; but, in this case, the
king was party. - Here there was a dispute between the crown
and an individual upon a pecuniary principle : the king in
sisted upon a certain sum of money for the carrying on a
trade under a charter. The company admitted a sum of
money to be due, but not the amount demanded ; here there
was a clear and unequivocal fact on which an issue might be
tried. Why not, then, try the fact in a court* of law? " No,"
says the minister, " in a court of law I have no influence —
in the House of Commons I have." This was evident oppres
sion on the subject, and therefore he trusted there was vir
tue enough in the House to resist the farther progress of
the bill.
The House divided on the motion, that the Speaker do leave
the chair. Yeas 182 : Noes 125. So it was resolved in the affir
mative;

March 7.
On the motion for bringing up the report of the bill, Mr. Pitt
declared, that, for the purpose of having farther checks, to prevent
troops being sent to India without the approbation of parliament,
and to prevent the improper application of the territorial revenues,
he should move for its re-commitment, and that the committee
should be instructed to receive clauses for the said purposes.
Mr. Fox remarked that, pledged as he was to oppose the
present bill in all its stages, he trusted the necessity of his
now claiming the attention of the House would be obvious
without a comment ; nor could it appear to him necessary to
say a single syllable by way of apology for rising. He then,
entered into the merits of Mr. Pitt's India bill. There were
two points in which it should be principally considered : First,
Whether it was what the chancellor of the exchequer had
asserted it to be at the time of passing it — a bill to regulate
the government of India, to protect the territories there, and
to preserve inviolate the charter of the East India company?
Secondly, Whether it was what it was now asserted to be;
and if so, what would be its effect ? To the first part Mr. Fox
would apply but a short observation ; for if it had been what
the minister on passing it thought proper to call it, then it
would have been inefficient, nugatory, and useless; for he
had always asserted, and did now assert, that it was impossi
ble to preserve entire and inviolate the charter of the East
bb 3

374 EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. [March 7.
India company, and to save our territories in India even
tually from ruin. This was his opinion when he introduced
his own bill; this was his opinion at present; and, therefore,
he should be a consummate hypocrite were he to avow the
contrary. He introduced his bill with this avowal. It pro
duced alarm, and was in another House rejected. What
means were used to obtain that end he should not now enter
into the detail of. He believed the best panegyric ever pro
nounced on his bill, had just been delivered by the chan
cellor of the exchequer himself, with those round and finished
periods of fluent diction, and that happy arrangement fbr
which he had always been eminently distinguished. It is
with peculiar pleasure (said Mr. Fox,) that I have heard —
for I must have been gifted with extraordinary feelings indeed
if I had not been peculiarly gratified at hearing — a com
plete and able defence of almost every principle of my own
bill from the mouth of the right honourable gentleman : at
hearing almost the whole of that measure maintained and
supported with an irresistible eloquence, and in a flow of
language peculiar to himself. It will now no longer be
clamoured through the country that I am the violator of
chartered rights, or the usurper of the powers of the India
company. Had the right honourable member acted in the
same open and fair way in 1783, all that abuse which I have
sustained, all that clamour that has been excited, all that
popular phrenzy which disgraced the kingdom from one end
of it to the other, never would have been provoked. He
would then have said, " You take away the company's char
ter ; there I am with you ; the flagrant abuses the company
have made of it could not have been put an end to unless
you did so ! You suspend all their rights ; there again I am
with you ; the suspension is necessary for their salvation !
You assume the complete management and control of all the
company's affairs civil and military, and the disposition and
application of all their revenues ; in all this you do right ;
Such an assumption is requisite to give effect to your system I
But you put these powers into the hand of a board of com
missioners appointed by parliament; there you do wrong,
and there I am not with you. I contend that a board of
control, appointed by the crown, is the proper board to en
trust all these powers with." Upon that single point ought
to have rested the whole dispute, for that is the only essential
difference between the two bills.
The popularity which that right honourable gentleman had
obtained in consequence of his conduct towards the East India
company, would surely no longer be peculiarly his own. AH
sides of the house had at last agreed, and it was pretty gene-

1788.] EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. 375
rally understood by the public, that an India bill must be had,
which would take the charter of the East India company out
of their sole and exclusive dominion. The right honourable
gentleman would now, he trusted, desist from using those
sonorous clamours against the violation of the sacred and
chartered rights of the East India company ; those calumnies
and that abuse of men whose principles were too violent and
daring to be entrusted with the management of the complicated
and deranged state of our extensive Indian territories ; for if
he should still continue those clamours he would become him
self the prominent character — the leading feature of his own
calumny — the very hero of his own tragedy ; for he had not
only taken away, or now intended to take away, the charter
of the East- India company, but had done it with violent hands,
and had given it to persons of all others the most unfit to
retain it.
To the first part or description of the right honourable gen
tleman's bill, namely, that it was designed to save India, and to
preserve inviolate the charter of the East India company, suffi
cient had been said. Agreeing, therefore, with the right honour
able gentleman, that the charter should be by some means taken
away ; agreeing that the flagrant abuses of the company made
that violent step necessary ; agreeing that the state of India re
quired the immediate interposition of parliament, and that a
suspension was necessary ; that the management, civil and mili
tary, of the affairs of India, should not be entirely in the hands
of, the directors ; that the revenues and commerce should be
under some control ; agreeing, he said, in all this, the question
would naturally turn to a simple fact — Into what hands will
you entrust the affairs of India ? This led Mr. Fox^ into a
view of his own bill. It was true he had suspended th*e char
ter of the East India company ; it was true he had changed the
conduct and the management of their affairs, and taken them
out of the hands of the directors ; it was also true he had
avowed this publicly at the time of his bill passing that House.
Had he thought proper to conceal his meaning, and, like the
chancellor of the exchequer, have pretended by any equivo
cal clause to preserve the charter, he should have met with
no opposition. By his bill, the conduct of India was to be
entrusted to persons immediately under the control of par
liament, to whom they were declared to be responsible; and
this, if it added to the power of any part of the legislature,
gave it where the use of it was least to be dreaded. He should,
not detain the House any farther on the merits of his own bill ;
for, indeed, it had been well explained already, and its princi
ples could never appear to better advantage than when com-
bb 4

"37<5 EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. [March 7'
pared with the declaratory bill which the minister wished to
. be accepted^ by that House.
Mr. Fox then entered into the merits of the present decla
ratory system, as he termed it, for bill it could not be. It
. assumed more power and patronage than, he hoped, any bill in
. that House would ever create ; it assumed the whole, sole, and
- exclusive right to apply the revenues of the East-India com
pany; it gave this entirely to the crown, for it gave the
sovereign the right of calling on a private company of mer-
• chants to defray the expences of his military force ; it was cal-
; culated to ease the half-pay list at the expence of the East
India company, instead of the general expence of the whole
kingdom ; it gave power, patronage, and all its concomitant
advantages, to the board of control, without annexing^ to it
-that which was the first and best of all checks against despo
tism — responsibility. It had been said that there was no
patronage by the present bill. What, no patronage by the
(absolute: and uncontrolled disposal of eleven million a year !
Would ministers' add insolence to their absurdity ? . Would
•they dismiss decency of assertion, and expect the House to
forget the general and obvious maxims of common sense, that
power and patronage were inseparable; that patronage and
¦influence were inseparable : and that influence and corruption
were, in a degree much to be lamented, also inseparable ?
-Away with such gross, such stupid, such palpable absurdity !
He then came, he said, to that part of the right honourable
gentleman's speech which he perceived had a conciliating
effect at the moment upon the minds of some of his audi
tors. He had said, " Such is my desire that this measure
should be fully investigated, and that all points "should be
guarded. that may seem to tend to increase the prerogative of
the crown, that let any member of this House state his ob
jections to the present bill, as to the tendency to patronage,
let him produce a clause by way of check against the influence
he fears ; and from whatever quarter of the House, from whom
soever it comes, thatman who produces to me such a measure,
in whatever language he may convey it, whether with severity
to myself personally, or with the mildness of kind and tem
perate advice, is substantially my friend." These words,
taken literally, and without their context, which had been
carefully concealed, would appear bewitching ; but as the
minister had chosen to hide his own meaning under a fair
and specious promise, which in fact meant nothing, Mr. Fbx
said he would take off the veil, and shew the House its real
meaning. It was this : " Give me the absolute uncontrolled
power of India in my hands, and then you shall have as

. 1 788.3 EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. 377
many checks as yon please — a check upon absolute power —
a check upon uncontrolled dominion." This was exactly like
the right honourable gentleman's conduct on another view of
the present question, namely, when he first claimed the whole
revenue of the East India company, and gave them the sur
plus — the surplus after the whole was taken ! the remainder
a blank !" Mr. Fox declared that he should complain if he
was charged with stating monstrous cases ; for nothing was
supposed too monstrous against his own bill. Indeed, the
fact was as he had stated it. - The board of control might
apply the whole of the revenue, under colour of paying for
the protection of the territories. It had been asserted that
the board of control had not the right of nominating officers.
That was true ; but had they not the disposal of the revenue,
and would it not be absurd to suppose that they could
not, in a mild, insinuating manner, recommend? — and was
it difficult to believe that the recommendation of such persons
would be noticed ? We knew too well the difficulty, nay, the
impossibility of obtaining any nomination whatever, without
a connection with, and the countenance of, men in power. It
had been always so, and would continue for ever so : the very
nature of all government admitted of no other mode of regu
lating its concerns. So much for their possessing no right of
nomination. The board of control had the astonishing
right of levying war in India without the consent of his
majesty; and, therefore, they could never want an excuse for
applying the whole of the revenue towards the defence of the
territories. They had the whole power and authority of
governing India upon the very worst of all terms, as applica
ble to the interest of the East India company — as applicable,
indeed, to the interest of the state. They had the power with
out the responsibility ; for should any officer who held the
command in India act in such a manner as to destroy at
once the whole of our possessions in that extensive portion of
the globe, the board of control were not responsible; for they
had. not formally, although they had in effect the nomination
of such an officer ; in short, it was scarcely possible to name a
power more absolute, and of a tendency more destructive.
He next took a view of the commercial point which the
present question involved. It had been asserted that the
board of control did not interfere with the commercial inte
rests, of the company. If he had been truly informed, this as
sertion was false in fact ; fbr he had been told that no com
mercial dispatch could be sent to India without the signature
ofthe board of control. He desired ministers to correct him
if he did not state the fact truly. He paused for an answer ;
but no answer being given, he took the fact to be as he stated

378 EAST INDIA DECLARATORY BILL. [March J.
it — and said that there was an end then to the boasted li
berty of the commerce of the East India company. He came
to the point of law arising on the present case, and insisted
that a declaratory bill could not constitutionally pass to sup
ply any omission ; for it would be declaring on that which
never existed. He must now touch upon the last and greatest
charge that had ever been exhibited against him, in the warmth
even of any speech delivered in that House. A right honour
able gentleman had said, that he had by his India bill en
deavoured to pluck the crown from off the head of the sove
reign. Such language, if it could be applicable to any man
or set of men in this kingdom, was more descriptive of the
ambition of others on a different side of the House than of
himself. When had he acted, or conducted himself, as if he
might be supposed to have the seeds of disloyalty in his mind ?
When had he endeavoured to check the just prerogatives of
the crown ? He knew too well their value, and he had no oc
casion to wander out of his own disposition, by endeavouring
to destroy the just prerogatives of the crown. Ministers were
determined to give him sufficient employment in watching
their daring attempts to exercise prerogatives destructive of
the interests and subversive of the rights of the people ; and in
preventing, if possible, their creating new prerogatives. There
were, indeed, some prerogatives which derived their value
from being rarely used, and while we heard pompous and
declamatory speeches in defence of the prerogatives of the
crown, did notlet us at once forget the privileges and the rights
of the Commons. It was not by endeavouring to destroy the
one, that we were to preserve the other : they ought to go on
in harmony and unison; and when they clashed and were dis
cordant, then, indeed, should we be in real danger. Those
who had poisoned the royal ear, by insinuating that there was
but one side of the House of Commons loyal to their sovereign,
were themselves, in fact, enemies to the constitution. The
minister, he said, had forfeited the confidence of the House ;
he had been detected in a fraud upon it ; he had been de
tected in bringing in a bill under false pretences ; he had
been detected in endeavouring to pass, hastily, a bill, to de
clare what never existed ; but, when he found the House
awake, and determined to stop his career, he then assumed
an air of candour, and wished gentlemen to bring forward
their objections. Much better would it be for the right ho
nourable gentleman at once to confess his error, withdraw his
bill, and bring in a new one, adequate to all the purposes
of saving India, and also the commercial interests of Ahe
company.

1788.] MR. FOX'S MOTION, &C 379
The motion for bringing up the report was carried, on a division,
by 182 to 1 15 ; and on the 14th of March the Bill was read a third
time and passed.

Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax.
March 13.
PETITIONS against the shop tax were again presented early in
the present session, by the cities of London and Westminster,
and several other towns and corporations ; and Mr. Fox was again
requested to support their cause in the House of Commons. Ac
cordingly, this day, in pursuance of the notice he had given,
Mr. Fox rose, to make his promised motion for the repeal
of the tax. He observed that it was not his intention to take
up much of the time of the House in going over the argu
ments formerly urged against the tax. Of those arguments
every member of the Flo use was in complete possession, and
they would now be recollected with additional weight, as
that which before might have been considered by some as a
sort of hypothetical reasoning, had now been confirmed by
experience. The original argument against the tax was, that
it was not a general tax which affected every member of the
community equally, but a partial and oppressive tax that bore
only on a particular body of men. In answer to this, it had
been urged, that the shopkeepers would be able to levy the
amount of the tax on their customers, and by that means shift
the burden from their own shoulders to those of the consumer.
Experience had proved the complete fallacy of this argument,
and shewn that the shopkeepers alone were affected by it,
without a possibility of levying it on the community at large.
If they could have done this, how were they to effect it? Un
doubtedly, by raising the prices of their respective commodi
ties in proportion to the amount of the tax. But, had they
done this ? He defied any man to shew that there was the least
degree of coincidence between the tax and the rise in the price
of goods. If, then, there had been no rise in the price of
goods, the tax was borne by the shopkeeper only, and not by
the community at large.
And yet, in this instance, although he was ready to admit
that, in all cases, the opinion of the persons to be taxed was
not a sufficient ground of objection to a tax, the opinion of the

380 mr. fox's motion [March 13.
shopkeepers themselves was a strong and a convincing argu
ment against the tax. Had they been able to raise the price
of goods to the full amount of what they paid, they would not
have stopped there. They would' have added something
more ; and having thus converted into a means of profit what
they at first exclaimed against as a burden, their complaints
would have been at an end : they would have acquiesced in
the tax as a thing which was not merely a burden, but an in
strument in their hands of considerable advantage. Had this
been the case ? Had their complaints against the tax ceased ?
Were they not now as loud and as earnest in their remon
strances against it as they had been at the first moment of' its
being proposed ? The present application, the petitions on the
table, and the motion which he was now instructed by his con
stituents, the inhabitants of Westminster, to make, shewed
that they were. And, would any person maintain such an
absurdity as that they desired the repeal of a tax from which
they derived a profit ?
Such were the general grounds on which the impolicy and
oppressive tendency of the tax had been formerly argued.
There were now some which might be considered as new
grounds. In the first place, there was a petition from the
commissioners appointed to collect the tax, stating that they
found from experience that it was a personal rather than a
general tax, and that they were unable to levy it, according
to the tenor of the act, without oppression to individuals.
The case of the bankers was a striking proof of this. Had
they any means of levying the tax on their customers ? Or
were their profits greater now than they were before? Another
reason was its total inequality, and that it fell heavier on fhe
lower class of shopkeepers than on the more opulent, and
that a man who had less business and a less capital, being as
sessed according to the rent of his shop, paid more than a
man whose capital was larger, and his trade more extensive.
It frequently happened that a person, for the sake of a shop
to carry on his business, was obliged to take a large house,
for no part of which he had any occasion but the shop. This
person was assessed, not according to the rent of the shop,
which was necessary to his business, but the rent of the house,
which was not necessary. In answer to this objection it had
been said, that such person might levy part of the tax upon
his lodgers. But how was this to be done ? The shop in the
first instance was no recommendation to lodgers, but the con
trary; and if he attempted to raise the price of his lodgings,
his neighbour, who had no shop, and consequently did not
pay the tax, would effectually prevent him by a competition.
In this point of view he challenged any man to shew that it

1788.] FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. 38 1
was not partial and unequal, and that, contrary to the opera
tion of every wise and judicious tax, it did not fall heaviest on
those who were the least able to bear it.
Mr. Fox said he was in possession of some particular in
stances which he would state ; and in what he was going to
mention he desired to be understood as not meaning to say
that the grievance was not felt in as great a degree in other
places; for, undoubtedly, the unequal and oppressive ten
dency of the tax was not focal. In the city of Bath, a poul
terer paid 19s.; in the same street, and but a few doors dis-
stant, another poulterer, whose capital was not near so large,
nor his business near so extensive, paid 5I. 4s. If this man
were to attempt to reimburse himself by raising the price on
his small trade, what would be the consequence ? His cus
tomers would leave him, and go to his neighbour, who, with
a large trade, and paying a tax comparatively next to nothing,
would be under no such necessity of raising his prices. In
the same |city, and in the same street, one silversmith paid
4I. another 81. and a third 81. 5s. The reason of this inequa
lity was, that the tax was not, what it professed to be, a shop
tax, but a tax on houses.
Upon the whole, as the discontents on account of the tax
had not decreased, but had gradually increased as the opera
tion of it had been more generally felt, and as it was absurd to
suppose that any description of men would persist in their
complaints against a measure which they did not feel to be a
burden, he was convinced it ought to be repealed, and some
other less partial and less oppressive tax substituted in its
stead. For although he admitted that it was not a general
rule for repealing a tax that there were complaints against it,
yet, in such a case as the present, where the complaints were
evidently well founded, as experience had shewn them to be,
it would much better become the wisdom and the justice of
the legislature to listen to them, than to disregard them. A
report had lately prevailed, that it was the intention of the
right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer to propose
either a repeal, or such a modification of the tax as would
obviate the objections which had been urged against it. This
report he had never beheved, and had always discountenanced,
because, if it had been true, the right honourable gentleman,
either when he gave notice of his motion or since that time,
would have signified such his intention. If that had been
done, he would have delayed his motion till he had heard
what that modification was to be, or if it were done now, he
would consent to withdraw it. Mr. Fox concluded with mov
ing for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the shop tax.

382 CONDUCT OF THE ADMIRALTY [April 1 8.
On a division the numbers were,
Tellers. Tellers.
v fMr.Ald.Sawbridgel „ XT f TheSolicitorGen.-}
Yeas JMi'.Ald.Newnham j 98— Noes jMr.Rose } '+1-
So it passed in the negative.

Conduct of the Admiralty relative to the Promo
tion of Admirals.
April 18.
BY an order of council, dated in the year 17 18, and addressed
to the lords commissioners of the board of admiralty, they are
directed to proceed, in the promotion of officers to the rank of ad
mirals in the navy, according to the seniority of such officers upon
the list of captains, regard only had to their being duly qualified
for the rank to which they should be promoted. By a subsequent
order of 1747, the lords of the admiralty are authorized to super
annuate such captains of long and meritorious service as shall be
disabled from serving as admirals, by age or infirmity, under the
title of admirals upon the superannuated list, or, as it is commonly
called, the list of yellow admirals. In the promotion made by
the board of admiralty on the 15th of September 1787, in which
sixteen captains were promoted to the flag, upwards of forty cap
tains had been passed over, the greatest part of whom had the
offer made them of being put upon the superannuated list ; but,
conceiving themselves entitled, from their past, and their capacity
for future service, to the rank of acting admirals, they refused the
retreat that was offered them, and had endeavoured, but without
success, to obtain their re-establishment from the board of admi
ralty. This partial promotion had occasioned a great and general
disgust, and especially amongst the officers of the navy, who were
alarmed to find that the expectations of reward for the longest and
most meritorious service were to be dependent upon the caprice
of the first lord of the admiralty ; and it was therefore thought a
proper subject for parliamentary animadversion. Accordingly,
on the 18th of April, Mr. Bastard moved, " That it be refer
red to a committee to enquire into the conduct of the admiralty
in the late promotion of admirals." As this motion went to a
direct charge of ministerial misconduct against Viscount Howe, the
first lord of the admiralty, and was free from the objection of in
terfering improperly in the functions of the executive government,
it was necessary to meet it upon the distinct merits of the case.
In support of the presumption of misconduct, Mr. Bastard stated
the cases of Captains Balfour, Thompson, Uvedale, Shirley, Bray,
and Laforey ; and several others were mentioned in the course of
the debate. In order to obviate the unfavourable conclusion which
12

S788.] relative to the promotion of admirals. 383
these cases seemed strongly to support, it was argued by Mr.
Pitt, in defence of the admiralty, that none of the circumstances
alleged amounted to more than a negative proof, that the officers in
question were not disqualified for the rank for which they con
tended; but that, where a selection was to be made (and that a se
lection was expedient would appear, not only from the uniform
practice of the navy, but from the great expence and sundry in
conveniences which would unavoidably result from an overloaded
list of flag officers, ) it was necessary that a discretionary power of
making that selection should be lodged in the commissioners of the
board of admiralty. He admitted that they were responsible to par
liament for the use of that discretion, and that whenever a case was
made out strong enough to warrant a suspicion of , such abuses as
deserved censure or punishment, it was the indispensable duty of
the House to proceed to inquire. But he denied that such a case
had been made out. It had not been alleged that there was any
officer of incompetent merit amongst those who were promoted,
on which a charge of partiality or corruption could be founded.
It had not been asserted that the first lord was actuated by any
malice or other sinister motive towards those who had been passed
over, upon which he could be charged with injustice or oppression.
The point to be decided by the House was, whether they could in
fer, from the statement of cases they had heard, that the judgment
of the noble viscount, upon professional merits, was not to be
truted, but ought to be corrected by theirs? Such a case might
undoubtedly occur ; but he warned the House of the mischiefs that
would inevitably arise from opening their doors, without the most
palpable and urgent necessity, to the discussion of professional
qualifications, and the arrangement of military promotions.
Mr. Fox said he perfectly concurred with the right honour
able gentleman in the greatest part of his argument. No one
held more sacred the power of the prerogative, with regard to
the distribution of military honours and rewards, than he did ;
nor was any one more aware that the House of Commons was
by no means a proper place for canvassing military promo
tions. So firmly had he ever been of this opinion, that had
the honourable gentleman who made the present motion
moved an address to the crown, he could not have voted for
it ; but the motion being a motion for a committee, he should
vote for it; because it was the constitutional province, and the
undoubted duty of that House, to watch over the executive
departments, and, where they had cause to suspect abuse, to
institute an inquiry, with a view either to censure or to punish
ment. At present, a striking case indeed had been made out,
and he saw very strong grounds of suspicion that, in the late
promotion to the flag, the first lord of the admiralty had acted,
as it was truly said, with partiality and oppression ; but to ex
press it in the mildest term that could be applied to it, with
caprice.

384 CONDUCT OF THE ADMIRALTY [April 1 8.
The right honourable gentleman had distinguished the sort
of facts, on the truth of which the jut of the business lay, into
two questions : the distinction was just,, being whether Cap
tains Uvedale, Thompson, and Balfour ought to have been
promoted to flags, and whether Captain Laforey, holding a
civil employ, could have been so promoted ? For the sake of
illustration, the right honourable gentleman had taken Captain
Balfour to argue upon, because his merit was grounded on an
action of the most brilliant kind, and he had put the question,
whether at his time of life, and in his state of health, he was fit
to be an admiral ? Captain Balfour was stated by the right
honourable gentleman to be an officer who had the good for
tune to be able to shew that bravery which he possessed in
common with others. Did the right honourable gentleman
mean to stigmatize other officers by so putting the case ? To
Captain Balfour's merit, however, with that felicity of expres
sion which always, in an eminent degree, distinguished the
right honourable gentleman, he had done ample justice, and
spoke of an action, one of the most to be admired and the
fullest of lustre that ever distinguished any officer, in terms of
due respect, and with a just energy of description.
The whole of the first part of his argument was constitu
tional, manly, just, and such as, Mr. Fox said, he could sub
scribe to fully ; but, in the progress of it, aware that pursuing
the same fair line of reasoning would never answer the pur
pose of defending an opposition to a motion so undeniably
proper, the right honourable gentleman had made a sudden
turn, shifted his ground, and argued in a manner directly the
reverse of that with which he began. If the bare question was
put thus, Do you think Captain Balfour fit to be made an
admiral, because he performed so glorious an exploit in the
harbour of Louisburgh ? Mr. Fox said, he should have no
hesitation to answer directly in the affirmative, and say yes.
But, if the other question was put, and he was asked, whether
every captain who had merely negative merit as an officer
ought to be made an admiral, he should answer no, with as
little hesitation as he had before said yes ; because the latter
position was as clearly false as the first was true. The reason
why he would make Captain Balfour an admiral was on ac
count of the very description given of him by the right ho
nourable gentleman ; it was, because he had the singular good
fortune to have given a successful proof of his extraordinary
bravery, and his extraordinary skill in Louisburgh harbour;
and the reason he would assign to the other captains for not
making them admirals was, because they had not had the good
fortune to distinguish themselves. If the present motion were
not carried, the late promotion to the flag would operate as a

I788.] RELATIVE TO THE PROMOTION OF ADMIRALS. 38^
damper on the service, and do infinite mischief, by checking
the ardour and quenching the spirit of our officers, It would
be saying in direct terms to those who endeavoured to distin-
fuish themselves, that they would do-it to little or no purpose.
t would be hke addressing them thus : " Fight your ship
bravely ; do your utmost to prove your courage ; sink, burn,
and destroy; shew yourself an extraordinary good officer: we
will commend you ; you shall have the thanks of the king ;
you shall have the thanks of the House of Commons, and
every distinction; but when the hour of promotion ar
rives you shall lose your rank, you shall have no flag, you
shall stand degraded in the eyes of your profession, and
you shall find that your fame is a mere bubble. But, if you
have parliamentary interest, if you have parliamentary con
nections, if you can get a small fleet to command, you may
then shew yourself a good officer with some prospect of reap
ing honour and emolument for your pains; if you are a mem
ber of the House of Commons, so much the better^your success
will then be the more certain." He was aware, Mr. Fox said,
that it did not always follow, that he who had shewn himself a
good soldier would make an excellent officer; and he knew
that a good captain might not always make a good admiral
and commander. He was convinced that these things were
possible ; but the contrary presumption was strong ; and it was
more likely that he, who had distinguished himself greatly in
one military situation, would also distinguish himself in another.
The office of an admiral might be considered in two views ;
and the right view undoubtedly was to prospective service,
and an eye to selection was most proper and justifiable. But
it might be considered merely with a view to honours and
rewards retrospectively and for past services. In the lat
ter view the late promotion could not be defended a mo
ment; because, so considered, it was most scandalously partial
and unjust. He mentioned Sir John Lindsay as a proof that
a view to prospective services had not solely governed the
measure ; because, though Sir John Lindsay's friends must
.ardently wish his recovery, they could not hope for it with any
great degree of confidence. He paid Sir John's character
encomiums, and said, if he could be swayed by personal feel
ings in his arguments, he should not have mentioned Sir John
Lindsay, since he was a man for whom he entertained a very
sincere friendship, and was, beside captain Laforey, the only
naval officer with whom he lived in a very considerable degree
of intimacy.The right honourable gentleman, in the course of his
speech, had taken no notice whatever of one case, that, in his
mind, lay heavy on the first lord of the admiralty.; and this
VOL. III. c c

386 CONDUCT OF THE ADMIRALTY, &C [April 1 8.
was the case of Captain Bray. The honourable gentleman
who made the motion had told them that Captain Bray ap
plied for his flag ; that Lord Howe advised him, at his time
of life, to give up his claim to rank; that he instructed him in
what manner to apply for his superannuation ; that Captain
Bray abandoned his claim to rank in consequence, and ap
plied for his superannuation, when he was told that it could
not be granted him. A transaction so cruelly delusive de
served inquiry in that House. He wondered, therefore, after
such a charge had been made in the House of Commons,
that the friends of the noble viscount should feel it their duty
to resist an inquiry, which could alone clear his character.
They must have felt it a painful duty indeed, and the noble
viscount must feel unhappy when he should know that such a
charge had been brought against him, and that the means of
probing it were denied. He wondered the right honourable
gentleman had not felt this pointed circumstance.
Mr. Fox took notice of that part of the chancellor of the
exchequer's speech, in which he had endeavoured to defend
Captain Laforey's being passed by, while Sir Charles Mid
dleton, standing precisely in similar circumstances, had re
ceived his rank. In going into so many minute details of
dates in this part of his speech, and labouring at trifling dis
tinctions, the right honourable gentleman seemed conscious
that he had by no means been able to satisfy the House re
specting a transaction so glaringly partial and unjust. The
right honourable gentleman had admitted that there were
three distinctions, upon each of which the case might be ar
gued ; first, that Sir Charles Middleton did not come within
the rule, and that Captain Laforey did ; but, in the first place,
he would ask, was the commissioner of Plymouth yard, with
a military commission besides, a post to be holden not as a
military man ? Mr. Fox mentioned the cases of Sir Richard
Hughes and Lord Hood, who had both been commissioners ;
and though he would not, he said, compare the men, it was
impossible not to see that the rule, as it was called, was as
applicable to their case as to that of Captain Laforey.
He reprobated Mr. Pitt's argument to persuade the House
that they were not competent to judge upon the partiality or
impartiality of the late promotion: if it meant any thing, he ob
served, it went directly to the annihilation of the whole of the
constitutional powers of cognizance and control of that House.
In like manner, they might be told, when a complaint was
urged against the conduct of a judge, « Do not inquire.
What do you know of law? Leave it to the chief justice,
and the courts below. They alone understand the subject."
He could not help remarking, he said, that, oh this occasion,

I788.] ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE. 387
those gentlemen who were against appealing to the House of
Commons were its members, and those who wished it were
the military men themselves. He asked whether, by 'so
many of them dividing in support of a recent motion, they
seemed sorry that it came before parliament, and whether
they had thereby manifested a wish that it had been referred
to the decision of one man only, who would have opposed
their own opinion? The right honourable gentleman had
said, " Would any little inconvenience weigh against the mis
chiefs that might arise from the discussion of such matters in
parliament?" Mr. Fox declared that he felt his share of
concern that such questions should ever come under parlia
mentary agitation ; but was the inconvenience likely to arise
"little?" Was the casting a damper on the whole service
of the navy; was the shewing that merit, however successful,
however bright, however illustrious, however glorious in a
captain, was no recommendation to the flag, a " little" in
convenience ? He conjured the House not to set a precedent
that woidd destroy all enterprise, but by agreeing to the mo
tion for a committee, to restore confidence to the navy, and
increase ardour by reviving hope in the breasts of its officers.
On a division the numbers were,
Tellers. Tellers.
v„, f Sir James Erskine 1 _ XT f Mr. Yorke )
Yeas_ j Captain Macbride j J34"  NoES { Mr. Steele \ l5°-
So it passed in the negative.

Abolition of the Slave Trade.
May 9.
THE trade carried on by this country, and other European na
tions, upon the coast of Africa, for the purpose of purchasing
negro slaves, to be employed in the cultivation of the West India
islands and certain parts of the continent of America, does not
appear, till of late years, to have been considered with that gene
ral attention, which a practice so abhorrent in its nature to the
mild principles of modern policy and manners might have been
expected to excite. This may probably have been owing, partly
to the distance of the object which tended both to conceal the suf
ferings and to lessen the sympathy of the public for the unfortu
nate sufferers ; partly to the connivance of politicians, unwilling
to examine too severely into the necessity of the means, by which
distant colonies were enabled to pour luxury and wealth into the
mother countries. The first public attempt that was made to put
c c 2

3SS abolition of the slave trade. [May 9.
a stop to this traffic, was by the quakers of the southern provinces
of America, who, soon after the establishment of their indepen
dence, not only presented for this purpose a strong and pathetic
address to their several legislative assemblies, but actually pro
ceeded, as is said, in many instances to emancipate the slaves that
were in their possession. The measures taken by the American
legislatures, in consequence of this application, are before the
public. In Great Britain the same sect appears also to have taken
the lead, and, after the example of their American brethren, pre
sented last year a similar petition to the parliament of this king
dom. The cause soon after became extremely popular, and was
taken up with great zeal and earnestness by various descriptions of
people. A society was formed, and a considerable sum of money
subscribed, for the purpose of collecting information and support
ing the expence of an application to parliament. A great number
of pamphlets were published upon the subject ; several eminent
divines recommended it from the pulpit and in printed discourses ;
and in the present session petitions were presented from the two
universities, and from several of the most considerable towns and
corporations in the kingdom. In the mean time, his majesty's mi
nisters thought it proper to institute an enquiry, before a commit
tee of the privy council, into the facts and allegations contained
in the representations of both parties upon the subject ; and Mr.
Wilberforce, to whom the conduct of the business in the House of
Commons had been, by a sort of general consent, assigned, hav
ing been prevented, by the bad state of his health, from bringing
it before the House, Mr. Pitt rose in his place, on the 9th of May,
and, after mentioning this circumstance, moved, " That this House
will, early in the next session of parliament, proceed to take into
consideration the circumstances of the slave trade, complained of
iri the several petitions which have been presented to the House,
and what may be fit to be done thereupon." He added, that pre-
. vious to that time, the enquiry instituted before the privy council
would be brought to such a state of maturity as to make it fit that
the result of it should be laid before the House, to facilitate their
investigation, and to enable them to proceed to a decision, founded
equally upon principles of humanity, justice, and sound policy.
Mr. Fox declared, that what the right honourable gentle-
f»an had said laid him under very considerable embarrass
ment. He had himself considered the subject very minutely,
and it had been his intention to have brought something for
ward in that House respecting it ; but when he heard that an
honourable gentleman, one of the members for Yorkshire,
had resolved to take it up, he was unaffectedly rejoiced, not
only knowing that gentleman's purity of principles and sincere
love for the rights of humanity, but because, from a variety
of considerations as to the characters and situations in which
different men stood in that House, there was something that
made him honestly think it was better that the business should

178.8.] abolition of the slave trade. 389
be in the hands of the honourable gentleman than in his,
and that it was much more likely to come from the honour
able gentleman with more weight, more authority, and more
probability of success than it could from himself.
Having premised this, Mr. Fox said, that as so many pe
titions, and those signed by such numbers of persons of the
most respectable character, had been presented, he was ex
tremely sorry that it. had been found impossible that the sub
ject of them should be taken up this year. He certainly
could not impute it as a matter of blame, that the case had
not been otherwise, and lamented, as every gentleman must
do, the absence of the honourable gentleman who had under
taken to bring it forward, and still more the cause of that ab
sence. The right honourable gentleman had said, he thought
there were circumstances that might happen by the next year,
that would make it more adviseable and advantageous to take
it up then, than it would have been to enter upon it in the
present session. In answer to this he must declare, it was his
opinion, that no such circumstance could happen.
From one part of the right honourable gentleman's speech
he presumed it was the enquiry into the subject that had been
instituted by the lords of his majesty's privy council that was
alluded to, as the source to which that House was to look
up for some necessary information. To the justice and
propriety of that proposition he must give a flat denial ; be
cause there could be no information laid before that House,
through the medium of the lords of the privy council, that
could not much more advantageously have been obtained by
that House, had they themselves instituted an enquiry. It
was their duty to advise the king, and not to ask his advice.
This the constitution had laid down as one of its most essen
tial principles; and though, in the present instance, he saw
no cause for blame, because he was persuaded his majesty's
ministers had not acted with any ill intention, it was a prin
ciple that ought never to be departed from, because it never
could be departed from without establishing a precedent that
might lead to very serious abuse. He lamented that the
privy council, who had received no petitions from the people
on the subject, should have instituted an inquiry, and that
the House of Commons, the table of which had been loaded
jwith petitions from all parts of the kingdom, should not
have instituted any inquiry at all. He hoped those petitions
would have a fair discussion in that House, independent of
any information that could be given the House by his ma
jesty's ministers. He could not, therefore, help lamenting
that the subject had not been brought forward earlier: when
he said this, he was aware that, the honourable member who
c c 3

39<> ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE. [May O.
had undertaken it, was rendered incapable of attending the
House ; and he was also aware how unpleasant it must be for
any one of that honourable gentleman's friends to have come
forward, and answered for him, by saying that his health
was such that he would not be able to attend during that
session. It was certainly a very delicate thing to do, and
what no gentleman could easily bring himself, on any occa
sion, to stand up and declare. He did not, therefore, impute
blame any where on account of the delay, but he certainly
lamented it extremely.
A right honourable gentleman, every way competent, had
Said that it was to be brought forward in the course of the
next session of parliament, and that if his honourable friend
could not then attend, he stood pledged to propose it himself.
Surely it was somewhat strange that the right honourable
gentleman had not given the House his sentiments on the sub
ject, and the general view in which he meant to take it up.
It was not a subject that was new, and on which gentlemen
had formed no opinion ; but, on the contrary, it was one on
which most men had formed some opinion or other. He won
dered, therefore, the right honourable gentleman had not
hinted what his opinion was. Had his honourable friend been
able to have come to the House, and proposed postponing the
business till next session, they would have derived another ad
vantage from his presence, because the honourable gentleman
would doubtless have stated to the House in what view he saw
the subject, and in a general way described the nature of the
project he meant to propose next session. The opinion of the
right honourable gentleman opposite to him, Mr. Fox said, he
understood, primd facie, to be the same as his own. But
what his intention was, they knew not ; with what view, and
for what object he meant to bring the subject forward, he had
left them completely in the dark.
The right honourable gentleman was pleased to observe,
that it had been a very general opinion that the African slave
trade should be put a stop to. Again, he had said, that others
had not gone so far, but had given it as their opinion, that it
required to be revised and regulated. Mr. Fox said he had
no scruple to declare, in the onset, that his opinion of this mo
mentous business was, that the slave trade ought not to be regw
lated, but destroyed. To this opinion his mind was pretty
nearly made up, and. he was persuaded, that the more the
subject was considered, the more his opinion would gain
ground ; and it would be admitted, that to consider the sub
ject in any other manner, and on any other principles than
those of humanity and justice, was idle and absurd. If there
were any such men, and he did not know but there were those,

I788.] ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE. 39!
who, led away by local and interested considerations, thought
the slave trade might still continue under certain modifica
tions, those men were the dupes of error, and mistook what
they thought their interest, for what he would undertake to
convince them was not their interest ; — since nothing could
be the true interest of any description of men that revolted
against the principles of justice and humanity.
He said he would not oppose the question, if other mem
bers thought it was best to let the consideration, important
and pressing as it was, stand over to the next session ; but he
should have thought it still better if it had been brought on
then. He again enumerated the superior advantages of an
inquiry into such a subject, carried on within those walls, over
an enquiry carried on before the lords of the privy council.
In inquiries carried on in that House, they had the benefit
of every circumstance of publicity ; which was a most ma
terial benefit indeed, and that which of all others' made
the manner of conducting the parliamentary proceedings
of Great Britain the envy and admiration of the world.
An inquiry there, was better than an inquiry in any other
place, however respectable the persons before and by whom
it was carried on. There, all that could be said for the
abolition, or against the abolition, of the African slave
trade, might be said. In that House every relative fact would
have been produced, no information would have been with-
holden, no circumstance would have been omitted that was
necessary for elucidation, nothing would have been kept back.
There were some subjects of inquiry fitter for the privy coun
cil to investigate; but there was no public question so fit for
them as for that House to inquire into : and the present was
a question of public importance, and therefore peculiarly pro
per for investigation before that popular assembly. Mr. Fox
said, he did not know any political question that could be con
sidered in the abstract, or without a reference to the circum
stances of the country. He took up the present subject from
principles not only of justice and humanity, but from an in
vestigation of those principles, and a consequent conviction
that there could be no regulation founded in those principles,
that could prove injurious to mere political considerations.
Those mistaken men, therefore, who, led away by the delu
sive ideas of self-interest, thought otherwise, had only to hear
the case fairly argued, to lead them to subscribe to the con
viction of the propriety of the maxim he had stated, and to own
its truth in spite of the fallacies of those who argued from cold
policy, and for what they called the prosperity of the country.
The motion was agreed to nem. con,
c c 4

392 CHARGES AGAINST SIR ELIJAH IMPEY. [May 9.

Charges against Sir Elijah Impey.
May 9. ,
ON the 28th of April, -all the evidence in support of the charges
against Sir Elijah Impey being gone through, Sir Gilbert
Elliot began his reply to the answer of Sir Elijah. After a speech
of considerable length the committee was adjourned to the 7 th of
May, when Sir Gilbert resumed his reply, and finished it on the
9th, with moving, " That the committee, having considered the first
article, and examined evidence thereupon, is of opinion, that there
is ground for proceeding against Sir Elijah Impey, by way of im
peachment of high crimes and misdemeanors upon the matter of
the first article."
The defence of Sir Elijah was undertaken by Sir Richard Sut
ton, who was supported by Mr. D. Pulteney, the solicitor and
attorney general, and Mr. Pitt. The motion was supported by Mr.
Fox, Colonel Fullarton, and Mr. Burke. When the solicitor ge
neral had concluded his speech,
Mr. Fox observed, that the honourable and learned gentle
man who spoke last, had declared, that he was not an ac
quaintance of the parties. He was, Mr. Fox said, as little
their acquaintance as the honourable and learned gentleman.
Every man had his prejudices and his predilections. He
came into the House sometimes with prepossessions, but he
always endeavoured to give them as little power as possible,
and he never, he trusted, had shewn himself dead to con
viction. On the present occasion, he accused Sir Elijah
Impey of a deliberate murder. He thought his friend, the
honourable baronet, had argued the points of law ably, and
sometimes conclusively. There were some particulars, how
ever, in which he perfectly agreed with the honourable gentle
man over the way. He thought his honourable friend was
right in saying that Sir Elijah Impey was guilty to the full ex
tent of the charge, because, at the same time that he proved
that Sir Elijah had acted illegally, he proved that he had
acted corruptly. His honourable friend had stated that the
6tatute of the 2d of George II. against forgery, which applied
likewise against perjury, was not in force in India. He would
not trouble the committee with respect to the law, except only
as to its applicability to that country. If any laws were car
ried to Calcutta, they were those of England, and not those of
Calcutta; now, if it had been the intention of the legislature
to have sent the statute of the 2d of George II. to India, they
15

1788.] charges against sir Elijah impey. 393
would have sent it to America also. He asked, were there
no bonds, no promissory-notes, in the colonies of North
America? Certainly there were. Could Sir Elijah Impey
then, with the act before him, say that Great Britain sent
that act to India, though not to Scotland, to Canada, Ame
rica, and the West Indies ? And if commercial concerns had
gone on in India for hundreds, nay, as an honourable ba
ronet, (Sir Richard Sutton,) had said, for thousands of years,
without the necessity of having the crime made a capital of
fence, what occasion was there to enforce the 2d of George II.
in the case of Nundcomar ? Mr. Fox reasoned upon this point,
and asked whether any man, besides Sir Elijah Impey, would
have taken upon himself the responsibility of putting to death
a miserable individual, under the doubtful operation of that
statute ? What sort of argument must Sir Elijah Impey have
held with himself, knowing how the law stood? Must. he not
have said, "If I had been in England, — at York, or at Exeter,
— I could not have committed this act ? There the king's pre
rogative of mercy would have been sacred ; but here this wretch
is in my power, and I will murder him."
Mr. Fox declared he never read the printed account of the
trial without a conviction that the accusation contained in the
charge, balanced with the evidence, proved Sir Elijah guilty.
Every part of it went to establish that fact. What interpre
tation was to be put upon his whole conduct during the trial ?
In particular, let the committee consider the chief justice's
artful declaration to the jury, that the question before them
was, whether the prisoner was guilty of forgery, or his ac
cusers guilty of a crime worse than murder? What was likely
to be the effect of such an insinuation ? It would necessarily
operate upon the mildness natural to the human mind, and
incline them of course to prefer the most lenient option, and
think it was better to find the prisoner guilty of forgery, than
by his acquittal to pronounce his accusers guilty of a worse
crime than murder. If it should be asked, whether he
thought it likely that men of a respectable and learned pro
fession would disgrace themselves and their profession, by
standing forward to defend a member of their own body, if
they thought him really guilty, he would say, that he admired
their abilities, and venerated their learning ; but no abilities, no
learning, should protect the person who could suppress the
conscious evidence of his own heart, and withhold what might
have saved the life of a fellow-creature. It was, to his con
viction, extravagant and absurd to say that there was no
malice in Sir Elijah Impey's mind throughout the trial. A»
well might he be told of a man's firing a pistol at another in
the street, and killing him, and that it was impossible to prove

394 charges against sir Elijah impey. [May 9.
that the man who killed the other had any malicious motive.
He thought it a convincing part of his honourable friend's
speech, where he had argued that the attestation of a bond
was not a material part of it, and that the forging an attesta
tion was not a crime within the reach of the penal statute. If
a man was to produce a bond with a forged signature, and
forged attestations, Mr. Fox said, he should have good reason
to believe the bond to be forged ; but not so, where there was
a doubt merely as to the attestations being the true attestations
of the nominal witnesses ; but Sir Elijah Impey had told the
jury in his charge, that if they believed the attestation, they
must condemn the prisoner. Sir Robert Chambers, he ob
served, had thought that the act of the 2d of George II. did
not apply, and had been of opinion that the forgery ought
rather to be tried as a misdemeanor under the fifth of Eliza
beth. Mr. Fox here read an extract, in which this was fully
stated : and he afterwards observed that Sir Elijah Impey, in
his defence delivered at the bar, had endeavoured to persuade
the House that Sir Robert Chambers had been convinced that
his doubts were ill-founded, and had in consequence retracted
his opinion. He was far, Mr. Fox said, from approving the
conduct of Sir Robert Chambers. On, the contrary, he
thought he had acted very weakly, and that entertaining the
doubts which he had stated, it was his duty to have pursued
a different line of conduct. But there was no sort of founda
tion for supposing that he had retracted his opinion respecting
the validity of the indictment. It was in evidence on the
minutes, that Sir Robert Chambers had, upon the motion for
the arrest of judgment, expressly declared that he had not re
tracted his opinion. What was still stronger, it was plain
from his conduct in a cause tried long since that of Nund-
comar, that he had not for years afterwards retracted his opi
nion, and he was convinced that he had not retracted it to
that day. What, then, ought to have been the conduct of
Sir Robert Chambers ? Mr. Fox spoke of the known bad cha
racter of the chief witness for the prosecution, and said, as Sir
Elijah Impey was well acquainted with his gross perjuries
and prevarications, he ought to have stated the fact to the
jury, and put them upon their guard against the testimony
of such a witness. Had that been the case, he asked, was
there one man in the committee hardy enough to say, that if
he had been upon the jury he would not have acquitted
Nundcomar ?
After dwelling upon the various circumstances of the
trial, he came at length to speak on the refusal of a respite,
and drew the line of distinction between the case of a capital
sentence in England and in India. Here it is always open

I788.] CHARGES AGAINST SIR ELIJAH IMPEY. 395
to a respite; and a respite is uniformly granted where any
doubt has arisen on the trial. In Calcutta, a doubt had
arisen of sufficient weight to authorize, nay, to make a
respite almost an indispensable act of justice. The honour
able gentleman who spoke first in the debate, in defence of
Sir Elijah Impey, had given the very worst argument for him
that could be urged, when he enumerated the number of his
accomphces ; as if it were any diminution of a man's guilt
that others were guilty with him ! With regard to Mr. Justice
Le Maistre, he had, in his observation on Nundcomar's
counsel, desiring that he might plead over, been proved
guilty of an ignorance in the practice of the law that he
should have been ashamed of, had he himself committed it.
He reasoned upon the part of Mr. Farrar's evidence, which
states that Mr. Justice Le Maistre shook his head, and said,
no, no ! when Mr. Farrar expressed his conception that in
clear strictness of law, in a case of capital felony, a defendant
had a right to plead over. In that case, he said, Sir Elijah
Impey ought to have explained what the law was. He
argued upon the confederacy alleged to have existed between
Mr. Hastings and Sir Elijah Impey, and said it was from
all the circumstances of the case strongly to be presumed,
and being so presumed, a corrupt motive was the necessary
inference, since no two people would agree together in so
wicked a thing as the taking away the life of a fellow crea
ture without some corrupt motive. He took notice of Sir
Elijah's having stated that a bribe had been offered to one
of the judges, and having said that it was a reason for exe
cuting but none for respiting. He likewise adverted to the
suggestion, that it was suspected the commander in chief
would rescue Nundcomar, and argued upon the whole as
an idle pretence, to cover the meaning of the chief justice
to shew to the people of India his own superior power. But
admitting, for a moment, that General Claveririg, Colonel
Monson, and Mr. Francis, behaved ill in respect to their
conduct with regard to Nundcomar, did that acquit Sir
Elijah Impey, or prove that he ought not to have granted a
respite ?
Mr. Fox declared that he agreed perfectly with his ho
nourable friend, that the committee ought not to vote for
the question, unless it was proved that Sir Elijah had acted
from corrupt motives ; but let them consider all the train of
circumstances that marked and characterised the whole pro
ceeding. Let them recollect that the quarrel between Mr.
Hastings and Nundcomar happened but a few days before
the commencement of the prosecution ; that party heats and
divisions prevailed between the governor general and the

396 CHARGES AGAINST SIR ELIJAH IMPEY. [May 9.
majority, and in consequence throughout Bengal; that Sir
Elijah Impey was confessedly the friend of Mr. Hastings, and
as much a party man in India, as he (Mr. Fox) was in this
country; that the letter of Sir Elijah to Lord Rochford,
and also the letter written from the mouth of the Ganges by
Mr. Elliot, which an honourable baronet had read, proved
this circumstance, that Mr. Elliot was sent out to England
to carry an account of the trial, artfully prepared, for the
purpose of deceiving the people of this country, relative to
that extraordinary transaction ; that Sir Elijah had refused a
respite where a respite ought to have been granted, as he
had heard Sir Robert Chambers declare he still entertained
his doubts of the validity of the indictment ; that they found
him on the trial brow-beating Mr. Farrar for having done no
more than his duty to his client, and acted like a gentleman
and a friend to humanity. When he reflected on all these
facts, could he say that he did not see that Sir Elijah was
all along intent on deliberate murder? Had not the com
mittee before them strong proofs of this point; and could
they doubt a moment as to the whole having arisen from cor
rupt intentions ?
Mr. Fox contended, that the more power the chief justice
was invested with, the greater was the degree of his respon
sibility. He asked whether under the same circumstances,
an impartial and humane man would not, instead of shewing
himself the agent of the prosecution, and determined to carry
the sentence into effect, have favoured the prisoner, and stu
diously endeavoured to find a ground for a respite. He said,
had such a conduct been ill founded, no man of candour
would have blamed it. He asked if they ever heard of mi
nisters being impeached for granting of pardons, and yet
they all knew that many pardons had been granted on im
proper grounds ? And would any person say that non-respit-'
ing, where mercy ought to have been shewn, was not as fair
a ground of impeachment as any other abuse of power?
He said, he would put Sir Elijah Impey in the case of a
minister of the crown, revising the sentence of a judge, and
when it was recollected that the judge was no other than
himself, would it not be agreed that he was bound to exert
a double and a treble share of caution and candour ? If he
revised the opinion of another, Mr. Fox declared, he could
freely exercise his judgment, but if he revised his own opi
nion, he was bound to distrust it, because he was naturally
partial to himself.
Mr. Fox next considered the little effect of the execution of
Nundcomar, in order to prove the fallacy of the argument
that it was necessary, as an example, to deter the natives

I788.] CHARGES AGAINST SIR ELIJAH IMPEY. 397
from forgery. He declared that forgery had since been re
peatedly committed by them from that time to this; and
that, in all probability, the perpetration of it would so con
tinue. The true effect of Nundcomar's execution was its
obvious purpose; it was no less than a plain, unequivocal
declaration that Mr. Hastings wished to prevent the natives
from making charges against him, and in that respect it had
fully succeeded.
After putting this very forcibly, and reprobating it as a
most diabolical motive for so foul a conduct, Mr. Fox said
he recollected one objection which had been urged against
the charge ; which was, that the whole of the facts alleged
had been known for many years, and were not complained
of before. If it was any argument against a prosecution of
a great criminal, that from a variety of obviqus causes his
crimes had passed long unnoticed, the most atrocious offen
ders might persevere in guilt with impunity, because such an
argument would go not only to clear Sir Elijah Impey, but
every delinquent under similar circumstances. The honour
able and learned gentleman, he observed, had said that Sir
Elijah Impey enjoyed a good character when he went out to
India : it was true, he had that sort of fair character which
every other man possessed who had not stood in a situation
that would bring his character to be tried ; but even had his
character been ever so excellent, a good character could not
stand in contradiction to facts. He cautioned the committee
as to their vote on the question, and appealed to them, whe
ther they would read this lesson to the people of India, — -
that every accusation urged against the chief governor was to
be punished with death ? Mr. Fox concluded a most ani
mated speech, with declaring, that if he was to pronounce
upon his honour, he would say that Sir Elijah Impey was
guilty^of a deliberate murder; and if he was to depose it
on his oath as a juryman, he would say the same. He la
mented that the powers of the House were so contracted,
that the committee could go no farther than to vote that
Sir Elijah Impey had been guilty of a high crime and mis
demeanor, because imprisonment for life and half his for
tune could, in his mind, be no adequate compensation for
his guilt. He was not, it was well known, a man of san
guinary feelings ; but he should not be sorry if murder, in
that case, were to meet with the punishment which murder
deserved. The motion was negatived by a majority of 73 to 18. On the
27th of May, the day appointed for the committee to sit again,
upon the usual motion, that the Speaker do now leave the chair,

398 KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [DeC. IO.
the same was opposed by the attorney general, on the ground that
the next article, relative to the Patna cause, was at that time de
pending, and likely to come speedily to a hearing before the privy
council. After a short conversation the motion was negatived ;
and the farther consideration of the charges was deferred till that
day three months.

r

King's Illness — Regency.
December 10.
["N the latter end of autumn, all ranks were alarmed by a report
'l that his majesty was seriously indisposed. On the 24th of Oc
tober, resolved, notwithstanding illness, to perform the functions of
his royal office, he held a levee ; and though it was obvious to
every one present that his majesty's health was very materially
affected, yet no symptoms indicated any definite species of malady.
On the king's return to Windsor his disorder assumed a very
alarming appearance. It was found that it had formed itself into
a brain fever, attended with a delirium, so often resulting from that
dreadful disorder. The mental derangement having continued to
the beginning of November, without any intermission, at length
became public; and the intelligence diffused general grief and
consternation. The Prince of Wales repaired immediately to
Windsor, where he was met by the lord chancellor, and they, iu
concert with the queen, took such measures relative to the do
mestic affairs of the king, as the necessity of the case required.
In the mean time, all those, who by their rank and situation in the
state were required to take a part in so new and unexpected an
exigence, assembled in the capital ; and an express was dispatched
to Mr. Fox, at this time in Italy, to hasten his return. The parlia
ment had been prorogued to the 20th of November; and as the
intended commission for a farther prorogation had not been issued
by the king, its meeting took place upon that day, as a matter of
course. Ihe peers and the commons remained in their separate
chambers ; and the chancellor in the upper, and Mr. Pitt in the
lower House, having signified the cause of their assembling without
the usual notice and summons, and stated the impropriety of their
proceeding under such circumstances to the discussion of any
public business whatever, both Houses resolved unanimously to
adjourn for fifteen days. At the same time Mr. Pitt took occasion
to observe, that as it would be indispensably necessary, in case
his majesty's illness should unhappily continue longer than the pe
riod of their adjournment, that the House should take into imme
diate consideration the means of supplying, so far as they were
competent, the want of the royal presence, it was incumbent upon
them to insure a full attendance, in order to give every possible
weight and solemnity to their proceedings. For this purpose it
J3

1788.] king's illness — regency. 399
was ordered, that the House be called over on Thursday the 4th
of December next, and that the Speaker do send letters requiring
the attendance of every member. Orders to the same effect were
made by the Lords.
In order to lay some ground for the proceedings of the two.
Houses of parliament, a council was held at Whitehall on the day
preceding their meeting, to which all the privy counsellors were
summoned. Of fifty-four who attended, twenty-four were of the
party of opposition. The physicians who had attended his majesty
during his illness were called before them and sworn ; after which
three questions, which had been previously debated and carried in
the council, were put to them severally. The first was, " Whether
his majesty's indisposition rendered him incapable of meeting his
parliament, and of attending to any sort of public business ?" To this
they answered, " That certainly he was incapable." The second
was, " What is your opinion of the duration of his majesty's ma
lady, and of the probability of a cure ?" To this they answered,
" That there was a great probability of his recovery, but that it
was impossible to limit the time." The third question was, " Do
you give this opinion from the particular symptoms of his majesty's
disorder, or from your experience in complaints of a similar na
ture ?" To this their general answer was, " That it was from ex
perience, and having observed that the majority of those who were
afflicted with the same disease had recovered."
On the 4th, the two Houses being assembled, the president of the
council informed the peers that the king, by the continuance of
his indisposition, was rendered incapable of meeting his fparlia-
ment, and that all the other functions of government were thereby
suspended. He then declared it to be his opinion, that in this
dismembered state of the legislature, the right devolved on the
twoHouses of Parliament to make such provision for supplying the
defect as should be adequate to the necessity of the case ; but that
it was necessary, before any step could be taken in so delicate a
business, that the deficiency should be fully ascertained : with this
view he moved, that the minute of the privy council should be
read ; which being done, the following Monday was appointed for
taking it into consideration. A motion to the same effect being
made by Mr. Pitt in the House of Commons, Mr. Viner expressed
his doubt whether, in a matter of such moment, and which would
be attended with such important consequences, the House could
proceed upon a report from the privy council without a farther ex
amination of the physicians, either at their bar or by a committee
of their own. Mr. Pitt urged, in reply, the delicacy of the subject
to be discussed ; and remarked farther, that the examination before
the council was taken upon oath, which the House had it not in
their power to administer. Mr. Fox concurred in opinion with Mr.
Viner ; he felt the propriety of acting with all possible delicacy ;
but if delicacy and their duty should happen to clash, the latter
ought not to be sacrificed to the former. A doubt was also stated
by the Speaker, whether, in the present defective state of parlia
ment, he was competent to issue writs for new elections. This
was determined in the affirmative, and the House immediately
rose.

400 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. [DeC. IO.
On Monday the 8th, Mr. Pitt, either convinced upon farther
consideration of the propriety of Mr. Viner's suggestion, or expect
ing that the probability of his majesty's recovery would become
more apparent upon a fuller inquiry into the case, came forward to
propose that a committee of twenty-one members should be ap
pointed to examine all the physicians who had attended the king
during his illness. A like committee was appointed the same day
in the House of Lords ; and the members in both were chosen
nearly in equal numbers from each side of the House. The report
of the committee being brought up on the ioth, and ordered to be
printed, Mr. Pitt moved, " That a committee be appointed to exa
mine the Journals of the House, and report precedents of such
proceedings as may have been had in cases of the personal ex
ercise of the royal authority being prevented or interrupted by
infancy, sickness, infirmity, or otherwise, with a view to provide
for the same." The motion being made,
Mr. Fox having premised that he was happy to feel a coin
cidence of sentiments with those of the right honourable gen
tleman in most parts of his speech, added, that undoubtedly
it was their duty to lose no time in proceeding to provide
some measure for the exigency of the present moment, but
that exigency was so pressing in point of time, that he for
one would willingly dispense with the motion then made.
If the motion were carried, it must be considered that it
was loss of time. What were they going to search for ? Not
precedents upon their journals, not parliamentary precedents,
but precedents in the history of England. He would be bpld
to say, nay, they all knew, that the doing so would prove a
loss of time, for there existed no precedent whatever that
could bear upon the present case. The circumstance to be
provided for did not depend upon their deliberations as a
house of parliament ; it rested elsewhere. There was then a
person in the kingdom different from any other person that
any existing precedents could refer to — an heir apparent of
full age and capacity to exercise the royal power. It behoved
them, therefore, to waste not a moment unnecessarily, but to
proceed with all becoming speed and all becoming diligence
to restore the sovereign power and the exercise of the royal
authority. When the unfortunate situation of his majesty was first
made known to that House, by a presentation of the minute
of the privy council, some gentlemen had expressed a doubt
whether the House could make such a paper a ground of par
liamentary proceedings. Mr. Fox reminded the House that
he had gone farther, and declared he thought the report
of the privy council was not an authentic document, nor such
as that House could make the ground of its proceedings.
That defect had now been remedied, and the House was, in

1788.3 KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. 40I
consequence of the regular examination which his majesty's
physicians had undergone before a committee of their own, in
possession of the true state of the king's health. That be
ing known to the House, and through them to the nation at
large, he contended that it was then, and then only, the pre
cise point of time for the House to decide, and that not a
single moment ought to be lost. In his firm opinion, his
royal highness the Prince of Wales had as clear, as express
a right to assume the reins of government, and exercise the
power of sovereignty, during the continuance of the illness
and incapacity with which it had pleased God to afflict his
majesty, as in the case of his majesty's having undergone a
natural and perfect demise : and, as to this right, which he
conceived the Prince of Wales had, he was not himself
to judge when he was entitled to exercise it ; but the two
Houses of parliament, as the organs of the nation, were alone
qualified to pronounce when the prince ought to take pos
session of, and exercise, this right. He thought if candid, en
tertaining this opinion, to come forward fairly, and avow it
at that instant; and, therefore, under such an idea, he con
ceived that as short a time as possible ought to intervene be
tween the Prince of Wales's assuming the sovereignty, and
the present moment.
He justified the prince's not making this his indubitable
claim himself, by imputing his desire of waving the open ad
vancement of it, to his having been bred in those principles
which had placed his illustrious house on the throne, and to his
known reverence and regard for those principles, as the true
fundamentals of our glorious constitution, in the maintenance
of which his family had flourished with so much prosperity and
happiness, as sovereigns of the British empire. Hence it was,
that his royal highness chose rather to wait the decision of
parliament, with a patient and due deference to the constitu
tion, than to urge a claim, which, he trusted, a majority of that
House, and of the people at large, admitted ; and which, he
was persuaded, could not be reasonably disputed. But,
ought he to wait unnecessarily ? Ought his royal highness to.
wait while precedents were searched for, when it was known
that none that bore upon the case which so nearly concerned
him, existed ? Take it for granted, the House agreed to the
motion, and proceeded by their committee to search for pre
cedents. What precedents did tHe wording of the motion
point to ? It spoke in general and indefinite language. Pos
sibly it might mean parliamentary precedents, referring to
such contingencies as the present. If that were its meaning,
the words " parliamentary precedents," ought to have been
expressed in it.
VOL, III D D

402 IINg's ILLNESS  REGENCY. [Dec IQ,
Mr. Fox remarked, that he should not oppose the motion,
but he thought it his duty to say, that it was incumbent on the
House to lose no time in restoring the third estate. His royal
highness, he was convinced, must exercise the royal preroga
tive during, and only during, his majesty's illness. With re
gard to the examination of the physicians, he would not take
up the time of the House with commenting on the particular
answers and opinions of each. However the physicians might
have delivered opinions, that might, in the minds of some men,
impress one idea, and in the minds of others, a very different
idea, three points were, he thought, undeniable inferences from
the whole of their examinations, in which he had assisted
above stairs. These three points formed the result, and must
be the substratum on which that House would necessarily raise
the superstructure, whatever it might be, that they should
deem it expedient to erect. He took the three points to be
these: i. That his majesty was incapable of meeting his
parliament, or of attending to business. 2. That there was
a great prospect and a strong probability of his recovery.
3. But that with respect to the point of time when that re
covery would take place, they were left in absolute doubt anc}
uncertainty. Upon this occasion, Mr. Fox said, that he could not avoid
expressing his hopes that the House would agree with him,
that these three points formed the true, fair, uncoloured result
of the examination of his majesty's physicians. He recapitu
lated the general heads of his speech ; and, after repeating his
willingness to accede to every proposition that was consistent
with the due solemnity of their proceeding upon so serious an
occasion, and declaring that he did not impute any desire to
create delay or unnecessarily avoid dispatch to the right
honourable gentleman who spoke last, added, that he certainly
would not resist the motion, although he had thought it in
cumbent on him to give his opinion on the subject freely anct
unreservedly. Mri-Ktt rose with some heat, to controvert the doctrine ad
vanced by Mr. Fox. He declared it to be little less than treason
against the constitution ; and pledged himself to maintain, on the
contrary, that the heir apparent had no more right, in the case al
leged, to the exercise of the executive power, than any other sub
ject in the kingdom ; and that it belonged to the two remaining
branches of the legislature, in behalf of the people, to make such pro
vision for supplying the- temporary deficiency as they might think
most proper, to preserve unimpaired the interests of the sovereign,
and the safety and the welfare of the nation. He added, that from
the mode in which the right honourable gentleman had treated the
•abject, a new question presented itself, and that of much greater

1788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 4O3
magnitude than the question originally before them; it was a
question of their own rights ; it was become a doubt, whether the
House had on this important occasion any deliberative power at
all. The motion- he had made could therefore no longer be called
nugatory, but was become absolutely necessary, in order to learn
and ascertain their own rights.
Mr. Fox begged the House would permit him to rise again
to explain. The right honourable gentleman had, though he
believed unintentionally, misrepresented what he had said ; at
least, an expression which the right honourable gentleman
had used, might, if not explained, have the effect of a misre
presentation, on account of its equivocal meaning. The right
honourable gentleman had charged him with something like
treason to the constitution, for having asserted that the Prince
of Wales had a right, from law, to the government, which the
two Houses could not take away from him : the right honour
able gentleman, however, in stating the position, instead of the
words " the two Houses,'" substituted the equivocal word
" parliament :" it was this word which required explanation.
If by parliament the right honourable gentleman meant the
three branches of the legislature, consisting Of King, Lords,
and Commons, he would agree with him that such a position
would be treasonable; for no doubt the parliament, in that
sense, could alter or limit the succession, or place such restric
tions as it pleased upon the exercise of the sovereign power.
But if by parliament he meant the two Houses without the
king, then he would be ' bold to say such a parliament,
if such could be entitled to that name, could hot legally
deprive the Prince of Wales of the regency during the
incapacity of his father, and during that period only, or place
any restrictions upon him in the exercise of the sovereign
power in the name of his father. So far would it be from
being treason in him to assert, " that the two Houses could
alter the succession, or restrain the exercise of the sovereign
power," that if he should be daring enough to support such a
proposition, the king's attorney-general would prosecute him
for uttering such a doctrine, arid would shew that he was open
to the penalties of a praemunire for maintaining it.
Every one knew, he said, that he was no advocate for the
antiquated and exploded doctrine of indefeasible hereditary
right ; but it had been declared that the crown of England
was not elective. Now, if for the purpose of guarding against
the discussion and anarchy of an elective government, the
crown was by law 'declared to be hereditary, why should it
not be inferred from analogy, that the exercise of the sovereign
power was also hereditary. Such an inference was necessary
to give life and spirit to the letter of the law, declaring the
d n 3

404 KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [DeC IO.
hereditary descent of the crown ; and consequently the claim
of the Prince of Wales to the right of assuming the govern
ment during his father's illness ought to be admitted. Indeed,
he was astonished to find any one bold enough to dispute it.
Some time ago, the Speaker had, from the chair, expressed his
doubts, whether in the present state of affairs, the House had
legally the power of ordering writs, even for the purpose of
rendering its own representation complete; and yet the right
honourable gentleman would contend, that it had a right to
exercise the highest power, that of vesting, though for a time,
sovereign authority in the person of a regent. In truth, it
was matter of serious doubt whether, under the present cir
cumstances, the House to which he was then speaking, was
really a House of parliament. Those meetings from which
the country had derived the blessings of a free constitution,
as settled at the Revolution, knew too well what they were, to
call themselves a parliament; they called themselves by their
true name, a convention, for they were no more, until a third
estate was created. Arid perhaps the two Houses at present
might be more truly styled a convention than a parliament,
until the third estate was restored, by the recognition of the
heir apparent's right, the declaration of the two Houses, or
even an appointment of a regency under their authority.'
He had said before, that the prince's right to the regency
was indisputable : he would now go farther, and assert that
it so belonged of right, during what he would call the civil
death of the king, that it could not be more completely or le
gally his, by the ordinary and natural demise of the crown.
The prince, therefore, who maintained that right, and yet
forebore to assume it, was entitled to the thanks of his country.
He was actuated by a respectful regard to the principles that
had placed his illustrious family upon the throne ; he waited
to be informed of the sense of the people, before he would as
sume what no man had a right to take from him, what the law
and the constitution had given him a right to take, without
waiting for a declaration of either House of parliament. It
was not decent, therefore, to trifle with a prince, whose con
duct was marked with such meritorious forbearance, by insti
tuting an enquiry into precedents, that had nothing to do
with the case. It was the duty of the two Houses to restore
the royal authority, and that immediately ; and he denied the
right honourable gentleman, acute as he was, to contradict
that assertion; but if the two Houses of parliament took ad
vantage of the present calamitous state of the country, to ar
rogate to themselves a power to which they had no right, they
acted contrary to the spirit of the constitution, and would be
guilty of treason.

I7S8.3 KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. 40J
Mr. Burke added some sarcastical remarks upon the doctrine of
the chancellor of the exchequer. Were he to become an elector
for the regency, as undoubtedly, he said, every member of the
House would be, if the doctrine they had heard was received,
he hoped he should be excused if he gave his vote for a prince
whose amiable disposition was one of his many recommen
dations, in preference to a competitor who had threatened the
assertors of the Prince of Wales's right with the penalties of
constructive treason. Being called to order for these expres
sions, he insisted that he was not disorderly. The chancellor of
the exchequer had asserted, that the prince had no more right
to the regency than any other subject whatever ; and if the House
were of the same opinion who would answer for the event of
the election ? Mr. Pitt concluded the conversation with com
plaining of the indecency of the expression that had been used ;
and asked, whether, when Mr. Sommers asserted, in the conven
tion of 1688, that no person had a right to the crown, it would
have been thought decent for any member to have risen and
pronounced him a competitor with William the Third ? , — A
committee of twenty-one, of whom nine were members of op
position, was then appointed to sit, with the usual powers.
December 12.
The report of the said committee being presented was ordered
to be printed. Mr. Pitt then moved, that the House should
on Thursday next resolve itself into a committee of the whole
House, to take into consideration' the state of the nation. The
question having been put from the chair,
Mr. Fox remarked, that two particular purposes were his
motives for rising on the present occasion; and these, he
felt it incumbent upon him to lose no time in laying before the
House, the more especially as they had reference to what had
passed upon the subject that did then engage, and had for
some days past engaged their most serious attention. The
first purpose was what he never rose for before, since he had
been a member of that House. No member was more in
different to newspaper paragraphs, reports, and representa
tions, than he was; he scarcely ever looked into any of their
accounts of what he said in that House, without finding some
part of his speech misrepresented, but he had thought it be
neath him to take any notice of it himself, trusting, that if
he had expressed himself clearly, the candour of that House,
and the recollection of those who heard him, would do him
justice. What he rose then to complain of, was a very diffe
rent matter. There had, he said, been representations, or
rather misrepresentations, not in newspapers, not in pamphlets,
not in coffee-houses, but there had been misrepresentations of
dd 3

406 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. [Dec. 12.
what, he had said in that House on Wednesday last, publicly
made, before a certain august assembly, by a grave person,
in high authority, and of dignified rank. He desired the
world to judge him and his opinions, from the sense of
those opinions, and his meaning as explained at the time.
There were different sorts of misrepresentations ; there might
be some wilful and intentional misrepresentations, others
arising rather from levity, caprice, and wantonness, than mis
chievous design ; and, again, another description of misrepre
sentations arising from the misconception of honest minds,
made by persons who were themselves mistaken and acted
upon that mistake. Under which of these descriptions of
misrepresentation he had fallen, he would not take upon him
to determine ; possibly he might have not expressed his mean
ing clearly, though he thought he had spoken in a manner so
explicit, that no man could misunderstand him; he was sure it
arose, not from any contempt of his auditors, that he had not
rendered himself more intelligible, but merely from the want
of power and capacity to convey to their minds, what so for
cibly impressed his own ; be that as it might, what had been
understood to be his meaning, or what had been misrepre
sented to have been his expression and sentiment, when speak
ing as a member of parliament, ought not to have been treated
as it had been; as if public proceedings, of a grave and solemn
nature, ought to be grounded on so unsubstantial afoundation.
The first point, from which he must exculpate himself, was,
the supposition of having spoken from the authority of any
person whatever, much less from the authority of his royal
highness the Prince of Wales. He had spoken merely
of himself, and delivered his opinion, as an individual member
of parliament. In that private capacity, and without the
Prince of Wales's authority, he had freely delivered his opi
nion, and the opinion he had stated and meant to state, was, that
from the moment that the two Houses of parliament declared
the king unable to exercise the royal sovereignty, from that
moment, a right to exercise the royal authority attached to the
Prince of Wales. But he must state what that right was,
that so attached ; and he would trust to the recollection of
gentlemen, whether he had not so explained it, when he had
last occasion to speak upon the subject. A new term had
been put into his mouth in another place, which he had not
used ; it had been said, that he had declared, " that the Prince
of Wales had a right to assume the royal authority, upon the
interruption of its personal exercise, in consequence of the
king's illness and incapacity." What he meant was this : he
conceived the exercise of the royal authority to be the right,
under such circumstances, of the Prince of Wales; but he had

I788-] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 407
spoken of it as a right, and not the possession. Before tha
prince could exercise that right, he must appeal to the court
competent to decide, whether it belonged to him or not, or
must wait till that court, on the part of itself, made such de
claration. That court was composed of the two Houses of
parliament, while they were sitting; the prince had the right,
but the adjudication of that right belonged to the two Houses.
The more clearly to understand this, it was necessary to ex
plain the precise meaning of the word election, and to contrast
it with the term adjudication. That House could legislate
and provide such measures, as it deemed advisable for the
public interest ; when they individually gave their votes for
such persons, whom they thought most fit to represent them
in parliament, they made their election of their representative ;
but when they sat in a committee above stairs, to try whether
A. or B. was entitled to a seat as representative of such or
such a borough, they sat as judges, and their report was an
adjudication of the right of A. or B. If gentlemen would do
him the honour to recollect his manner of treating this subject,
on the preceding day, they would, he hoped, in justice admit,
that the meaning which he had now explained, was precisely
that which his words, on a former occasion, had then been
calculated to convey, and that he neither talked of the usurpa
tion of the two Houses, nor suggested a single idea to warrant
the imputing to him any intention of that sort, or any thing
like it. Let it be recollected where he was speaking, and to
whom he was addressing himself; to the House of Commons,
one of the constituent parts of the very court that was to make
the adjudication of the prince's right. Let it be recollected
likewise, whether the rest of his argument, both in his speech
and his reply, did not go expressly to the nature oLthe
prince's right, as he had now defined it. He had, in terms the
most explicit and unequivocal, asserted it as his opinion,
that when that and the other House of parliament declared
his majesty incapable of exercising the royal authority, that
was the precise period of time when the prince's right attached,
and when that House ought not to delay in restoring the"
royal authority. Had he not said, that the same principles
that made the crown hereditary, made the executive power,
and the government of the country, hereditary likewise?
Upon that ground it was, that he had argued as he had done,
arid this he conceived to be the nature of the Prince of
Wales's right. Having thus, as he hoped, clearly explained
his meaning, he was free to acknowledge, that greater diffe
rences of opinion prevailed respecting the right of the Prince
of Wales to exercise the royal authority, under the circum-
•tances so often stated, than he could have expected, but
004

408 king's illness — regency. [Dec. 12.
much of that difference of opinion, he found, arose from some
nice, logical, and legal distinctions, taken between the term
right, and claim ; distinctions more equivocal, in his mind,
than solid and substantial, and which were rested on argu
ments and principles, which he confessed his understanding
was too dull to comprehend. One idea which he had learnt
was, that several persons admitted that the Prince of Wales
had an irresistible claim, which the parliament could not re
ject or refuse, whenever it was made, without forfeiting their
duty to the constitution. To that idea, he, for one, had no
objection ; because he knew no difference between an irre
sistible claim, and an inherent right. In another place, the
right of the Prince of Wales had been deeply investigated,
and that by inquirers every way equal to the discussion, who
all gave their sanction and authority to his opinion. If the
Prince of Wales had done him the honour to have asked his
advice how to proceed, he should have told him, as parlia
ment was sitting, that he thought his royal highness might
have sent a message to either, or to both Houses, stating his
claim, and calling upon them to decide upon it. But, as he
had said on a former day, his royal highness's forbearance
was such, that he would send his claim to neither House of
parliament ; but would wait patiently, and with due deference,
being conscious that the two Houses ought to acknowledge the
justice of that claim, and thereby restore the royal authority.
Mr. Fox declared, that he could not help thinking, that the
conduct of his royal highness deserved the commendation he
had bestowed on it, and was entitled to universal applause.
For his own part, he could assert, that he had entertained
sanguine hopes, that, in the adjustment of a business of so de
licate and important a nature, men of every description
would have concurred in one leading and essential circum
stance, and have allowed, that let there exist what doubt
there might, of the Prince of Wales's right to exercise the
royal authority under the present circumstances of the country,
there could be none of the propriety of investing him with the
sole administration of the government, and with the unlimited
exercise of all the regal functions. He had not yet abandoned
these hopes altogether. The right honourable gentleman had
named an early day for the House to resolve itself into a
committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the
state of the nation ; he did not mean by an early day, a day
too early. He had before declared, that after the authentica
tion of the king's incapacity, the House ought not to lose any
time in restoring the royal authority; but, surely, it could
not prove a matter of indifference whether the House should,
or should not, be enabled to know what sort of proposition it

I788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 409
was, that the right honourable gentleman meant to bring for
ward on Tuesday next, in order that they might turn it in
then minds, and come prepared to discuss it, with some
knowledge of its propriety and expediency. He wished the
right honourable gentleman not to regard him as hostile on
the present occasion. He knew it was so usual for the Flouse
to see the right honourable gentleman and himself acting in
an hostile point of view towards each other, that it was diffi
cult to consider them in any other light ; but, what he now
suggested, he suggested on grounds of general convenience,
devoid of any party consideration whatever. If the right ho
nourable gentleman did not feel the proposition that he had
made as he did, he could only lament that he did not. He
did hope, however, that the right honourable gentleman
would not think it unfit to give the House some general out-
line of what he meant to state to the committee on Tuesday,
that gentlemen might not be puzzled with the novelty of the
proposition, and embarrassed how to vote. He was inclined
to hope, that, as to essential points, the difference between
the right honourable gentleman and ^ himself was extremely
minute; an advantage, therefore, would result from a com
munication of the intended proposition; the opinions of
weighty men upon it might be ascertained, and thence
it might be seen whether arrangements might not be made
to reconcile difference on small points, in order that the
question, whatever it might be, might be carried with
unanimity. What some conceived a right in the Prince of
Wales, others might deem at the disposal of the two Houses
of parliament ; but that was a difference of opinion of no ma
terial import to the main consideration of the act they were to
do, and which they must proceed to do in some shape or
other. When the thing itself was decided, it would remain
to determine by what mode to notify' it. He conceived, there
could be but two regular methods; one by a declaration, the other
by an address, or perhaps both conjointly by the two Houses.
He knew not whether the right honourable gentleman was
willing to communicate the outline of what he meant to state
to the committee next Tuesday ; but he had no difficulty to
declare unreservedly what his own opinion was upon the
subject. His opinion was, that the Prince of Wales ought
to be declared regent, and capable of exercising all the regal
powers, in the same manner and to the same extent, as they
would have been exercised by his majesty, had his health ena
bled him to discharge the functions of the sovereign authority.
That was his opinion, and the House would see it was a plain,
simple, intelligible proposition. If the right honourable gen
tleman's proposition came near his, something ought to be

4IO KING'S ILLNESS, — REGENCY. [Dec. 12.
sacrificed to unanimity ; and he should be ready to give up,
on his part, in proportion as the right honourable gentleman
would express the same willingness to accommodate. Though
it was abundantly more desirable to carry a question of such
infinite magnitude, by the unanimous consent of the House,
than by a majority ; yet, if the right honourable gentleman's
opinion differed widely from his own — so widely, that there
was no chance of reconciling the one to the other — he should
be reduced to the necessity of dividing the committee upon it.
He declared he should be willing to sacrifice much for the
purpose of giving occasion to unanimity, because he thought
it, above all things, desirable. In the great point, there
could be no difference of opinion. They must all agree that
it was, in the first instance, their business to set up some
thing for the regal power ; and who would they set up, but
the Prince of Wales, who certainly had the first interest in
the welfare of the kingdom, his majesty alone excepted ? He
urged the right of the prince as an abstract point, and as
such, the stating it was, in his opinion, a powerful argument.
But what signified differences upon abstract points, where
the substance was indisputable ? The field was wide, and his
object then, as it had been in the debate of Wednesday, was,
to lead the mind to that point upon which gentlemen ought
to look. De qua re agitur was the matter he wished to ascer
tain, and with that view, he had called upon the right honoura
ble gentleman to state -the outline of the proposition with which
he meant to come forward on the ensuing Tuesday. All he
wished was5 that the House might know what they were to
expect, and not come altogether unprepared to meet it, when
the proposition should be regularly made. In the beginning
of his speech, he had endeavoured to explain a matter, re
specting which he had been misrepresented in another place.
He hoped he had done it satisfactorily ; but if any gentleman
entertained a doubt upon any part of what he had said, he
should be happy to answer any question on that subject, and
to give the fullest explanation in his power.
Mr. Pitt followed Mr. Fox, and after admitting the explanation
given by the latter, declared that he was ready to meet him on the
ground, upon which, after mature deliberation, he had thought
fit to place the question in dispute between them. The right ho
nourable gentleman now asserted, that the Prince of Wales had a
right to exercise the royal authority, under the present circum
stances of the country, but that it was a right not in possession,
until the prince could exercise it on, what he called, the adjudi
cation of parliament. He, on his part, denied that the Prince of
Wales had any right whatever, and upon that point the right ho
nourable gentleman and he were still at issue; an issue that, m

1788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 41 I
his opinion, must be decided, before they could proceed one step
farther in the great and important considerations to be discussed
and determined. An expression, he remarked, had also been
used, tending to insinuate that this right of adjudication, under
the present or similar circumstances, could only take place upon a
supposition of the actual sitting of parliament ; the plain inference
from which was, that if parliament were not sitting, the Prince of
Wales could assume the exercise of the regal authority. Mr. Pitt
declared, that he thought the Prince of Wales could, in no case,
assume of right die sovereign power. If there were no parliament
in existence, he granted that the heir apparent, acting in concert
with other persons in great situations, might, under such circum
stances as the present, have issued writs, and convened the two
Houses, for the purpose of providing for the public safety. But,
supposing the right of assumption given up altogether, and that
the prince must have the right adjudged by parliament, he denied
that they were acting as judges, as the sentiments of the right ho
nourable gentleman so manifestly intimated. It was subversive of
the principles of the constitution to admit, that the Prince of
Wales might, under any circumstances, seat himself on the throne,
during the life-time of his father ; and the intimation of the exist
ence of such a right, as he had remarked on a former occasion,
presented a question of greater magnitude and importance, even
than the present exigency, and the provision that it necessarily
required ; a question that involved in it the principles of the con
stitution, the protection and security of our liberties, and die
safety of the state. When the rights and powers of the two Houses
were ascertained, it would then become a question, to whom and
what portion of the sovereign power should be delegated during
his majesty's illness : upon this point, however decided he might
be in his opinion against the whole or any part of the regal power
being vested in the Prince of Wales, as a matter of right, in any
way in which that right had been explained, he was equally ready
to say, that, as a matter of discretion, and on the ground of ex
pediency, it was, in his opinion, highly desirable, that whatever
part of the regal power it was necessary should be exercised at all
during this unhappy interval, should be vested in a single person,
and that this person should be die Prince of Wales : that he also
thought it most consistent with true constitutional principles, and
most for the public convenience, that his royal highness should
exercise that portion of authority, whatever it might be, unfet
tered by any permanent council, and with the free choice of his
political servants. With regard to the portion of royal authority
which ought to be given, or withholden, it would be premature,
in the present stage of the business, to enter into the particular
discussion of it ; but he had no objection, even now, to declare in
general, that whatever authority was necessary for carrying on
the public business with vigour and dispatch, and for providing,
during this interval, for the safety and interests of the country,
ought to be given ; but, on the other hand, auy authority not ne
cessary for those purposes, and capable of being, by possibility,
employed in any way which might tend to embarrass the exercise

412 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. [Dec. 12.
of the king's lawful authority, when he should be enabled to re
sume it into his own hands, ought to be withholden ; because from
its being given, more inconvenience might arise to the future in
terests, both of the people and of the crown, than any which
could arise, in the mean time, from its temporary suspension.
Mr. Fox answered, that he was ready to admit that the
right honourable gentleman had nearly stated every point
which he had desired, and, indeed, full as much as he either
did, or had any right to expect from him, and that with
great candour. The right honourable gentleman had taken
a distinction between the right of the Prince of Wales while
parliament was sitting and his right while parliament was not
sitting, and had asked, what would have been the prince's
conduct under the latter circumstance? In that case, Mr. Fox
said, he supposed the prince would have done what the right
honourable gentleman had stated might have been done ; he
tvould have convened the two Houses of parliament, and re
ferred to that convention, the consideration of the state of the
nation, and expected when they declared the incapacity of
the king, that they would have also declared his right to the
regency. Some words had slipped into the right honourable
gentleman's speech which seemed to insinuate that he had
put the regency in a point of view very different from that in
which he had placed it. The right honourable gentleman
had remarked that the House was to decide whether it was a
right or a trust. When he (Mr. Fox) had stated that the
Prince of Wales had a right to exercise the royal authority,
he most undoubtedly meant a right to exercise it as a trust
from the people, which parliament might resume, alter and
modify, just as it thought proper. If that trust were abused
essentially, the people of England might resume it without the
parliament, as had been done in the case of the Revolution.
The regency was a trust, on behalf of the people, for which
the prince was responsible, in like manner as his majesty and
every monarch that ever sat upon the throne, were respon
sible for the due execution of their high office. Sovereignty
was a trust depending on the natural liberties of mankind.
But, his notions on revolution doctrines had been so often
stated, and were, he conceived, so well known in that House,
that he scarcely supposed it would be imputed to him, that
he meant to deny that the regency was a trust ; far from it ;
he had upon that ground urged the prince's right to be here
ditary, conceiving an hereditary succession the best security
to the people for the due discharge and faithful execution of
the important trust vested by them in their governors. Mr.
Fox took notice of the abstract question of right, which the
io

1788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 413
right honourable gentleman had declared he would bring for
ward in the committee on the state of the nation ; and added,
that until he saw the words of the proposition, it was impos
sible for him to speak to it. It might be a proposition which
the committee would affirm ; it might be a proposition which
the committee would neither affirm nor deny, but wave the
consideration of. With regard to the steps which the right
honourable gentleman had said he would take in the com
mittee, there might be objections offered to his intended mode
of proceeding, and he would state what those objections were,
without arguing upon any of them. The right honourable
gentleman had said to whom the powers of the royal autho
rity should be entrusted ; and after having resolved that, he
had declared that only a portion of those powers should be
given. A question might arise between those two steps,
whether there should be a portion or the whole of the
royal authority vested in the regent? Mr. Fox considered
this in two different points of view, as a question of right,
and as a question of expediency. He doubted whether the
plan of proceeding step by step could legally be pursued ;
and whether, allowing for the moment that the Prince
of Wales had no right, the two Houses of parliament could
propose an act of legislation. He doubted also, whether
they must not necessarily, in the first instance, set up some
thing for a king, to give his consent to the proposed defalca
tion of royal authority, whatever it might be. Restoring the
royal authority seemed to him to be clearly the first step that
must be taken, and he conceived that the two Houses could
not bargain with the regent beforehand for the diminution of
regal power. He professed that he saw no sort of necessity
for coming to a division on an abstract proposition, when
they had measures of so much solidity to take ; where the
portion of power that must be withheld was so little, the
stating an abstract proposition was, in his mind, useless ; he
thought it, therefore, much better to wave it, and for both
Houses to convince men by their acts, and not by abstract
resolutions. The right honourable gentleman's intentions, he
observed, were plain and manifest ; and he had, on his part,
expressly stated his opinion on the subject, which was to in
vest his royal highness with the whole, not a portion, of the
royal powers. Both sides of the House were therefore suffi
ciently understood, and the question consequently would be,
whether it was expedient to make the Prince of Wales re
gent, or a parliamentary regent, and thus give a situation and
create a power, hitherto unknown to our constitution.
The motion for going into a committee on the state of the na
tion upon Tuesday the 16th was then agreed to ; and the exami-

414 king's illness — regency. [Dec. 16.
nation of the king's physicians before the privy council, the re
port from the committee appointed to examine the said physicians,
together with the report of the committee appointed to search for
precedents, were ordered to be referred to the said committee.

December 16.
The House having accordingly resolved itself into the com
mittee, Mr. Pitt moved the following resolutions: 1. " That it
appears to this committee, That his majesty is prevented by his
present indisposition, from coming to his parliament, and from at
tending to public business ; and that the personal exercise of the
royal authority is thereby, for the present, interrupted. 2. That
it is the opinion of this committee, That it is the right and duty
of the lords spiritual and temporal and commons of Great Britain
now assembled, and lawfully, fully, and freely representing all the
estates of the people of this realm, to provide the means of supply
ing the defect of the personal exercise of the royal authority,
arising from his majesty's said indisposition, in such manner as the
exigency of the case may appear to require. 3. That for this pur
pose, and for maintaining entire the constitutional authority of the
king, it is necessary, that the said lords spiritual and temporal
and commons of Great Britain, should determine on the means
whereby the royal assent may be given in parliament to such bill
as may be passed by the two Houses of parliament, respecting the
exercise of the powers and authorities of the crown, in the name
and on the behalf of the king, during the continuance of his ma
jesty's present indisposition."
The first resolution was voted unanimously. The arguments
urged by Mr. Pitt in support of the second resolution were prin
cipally drawn from two sources, the precedents contained in the
report of the committee, and the acknowledged maxims and spirit
of the constitution. Lord North opposed the resolution, and
moved, That the chairman should leave the chair. The original
proposition was supported by the master of the rolls, Mr. Dundas,
the attorney and solicitor general, and Mr. Hardinge, the solici
tor general to the queen.
Mr. Fox rose and observed, that some remarks which had
fallen from different speakers, in the course of the 'debate,
compelled him to break silence, although it had not been his
intention to have troubled the committee ; and indeed if he
had thought it necessary, after what the House had before
heard from him on the subject, to enter into any farther jus
tification of his opinion, he was not, from personal indispo
sition, capable of doing that justice to its defence, which he
was sure it deserved. Not thinking it necessary to make such
a defence, he would treat the question only in a collateral
way, and therefore should not have occasion to detain the
committee very long, nor was there danger of his injuring

I788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 415
that cause which he had engaged in, by any deficiency of rea
soning resulting from his present ill state of health. Any
man would imagine, from the weakness of the arguments
advanced on the other side, that those who had used those
arguments, wished to provoke him to debate the right of his
royal highness the Prince of Wales to exercise the sovereign
authority, during the incapacity of the sovereign. From the
extreme futility of their reasoning, from the glaring absurdity
of their inferences, the false premises they had laid down, and
the irrelevant and inapplicable precedents, which they pre
tended to rely on, they, perhaps, thought, that they held out
a temptation so strong, that flesh and blood could not with
stand it.
Could the right honourable the chancellor of the exche
quer and his friends suppose that the committee would think
them serious, in supporting the system they meant to proceed
upon in the present exigency, by producing the sort of pre
cedents to which they had referred ? What a miserable sys
tem must that be, the prominent features of which were so
disgraceful ! Was the practice of the present times, times
so enlightened, and in which the principles of the constitution
were so well understood, to be grounded on precedents drawn
from so dark and barbarous a period of our history as the
reign of Henry the Sixth? And were the rights of that
House of Commons, and its proceedings in one of the most
difficult moments that had ever occurred, to be maintained
and vindicated by the example of the House of Lords, at a
time that the rights of the Commons House of parliament
were so ill understood, or so weakly sustained, that its Speaker
was actually in prison, on commitment of the House of
Lords ; in prison upon a judgment in favour of that Duke of
York, whose measures administration had avowed it to be
their intention to imitate ? Let the committee reflect a mo
ment on the period, the infamous transactions of which were
chosen as the model of the proceedings of this day ; that pe
riod which led immediately to the wars between the houses
of York and Lancaster, and was that melancholy aera at
which all the dismal scenes of anarchy, confusion, civil war
fare, and bloodshed, that so long desolated the kingdom, an<}
reduced it to a state of unparalleled disgrace and distress,
commenced. Were the committee to select their precedents
from such times, and to govern their conduct by such exam
ples ? From a time, too, when the House of Commons was
prostrate at the feet of the House of Lords, when the third
estate had lost all energy and vigour, and when the power
lay wholly in the hands of the barons. Precedents drawn
from such tunes could not be resorted to with safety because
16

416 king's illness — regexcy. [Dec. 1 6.
there was no analogy between the constitution then, and the
constitution as established at the Revolution, and since prac
tised. All precedents taken from periods preceding the Revo
lution, must be precedents which bore no analogy to the pre
sent case; because, at no one period before the Revolution,
was civil liberty clearly defined and understood, the rights of
the different branches of the legislature ascertained, and the
free spirit of our constitution felt and acknowledged. The
earlier periods of history were such, as only shewed the
changes of hands into which power shifted, as the circum
stances of the times ordained. In one reign, the power
would be found to have been in the king, and then he was an
absolute tyrant ; in others, the barons possessed it, and held
both kins and commons in the most slavish subjection; some
times the democracy prevailed, and all the oppressions of
a democratical government were practised in their fullest
enormity. No precedent, therefore, drawn from times so variable,
where right and wrong were so often confounded, and where
popular freedom had neither an existence nor a name, ought
to be considered as of the least authority. Amidst all the
precedents, he desired to know if they had found one of a
Prince of Wales, of full age and full capacity, who had been
denied the exercise of the sovereignty, during the known and
declared incapacity of the sovereign ? One of the precedents
the right honourable gentleman had mentioned, leaned rather
that way ; he meant the precedent in the reign of Edward the
Third, where the Prince of Wales, though a minor, was de
clared regent, in the absence of his father. With regard to
what the right honourable gentleman had stated of the quarrel
between the Cardinal de Beaufort and the Duke of Glou
cester, was that at all in point to the case to which the right
honourable gentleman had so invidiously applied it? What
was that charge? A charge that Cardinal de Beaufort had,
in the reign, and during the life-time of Henry the Fourth,
advised the Prince of Wales, afterwards Henry the Fifth, to
take upon himself the exercise of the sovereign authority.
Was there the smallest degree of analogy between the illness
of Henry the Fourth, and the known cause of the incapacity
of our present sovereign ? Henry the Fourth was afflicted
with a languor, the natural concomitant of age, and, in his
case, the consequence of a fever and long sickness ; but was
Henry the Fourth, therefore, incapacitated from the exercise
of the sovereign authority ? By no means : he might not be
able to meet his parliament, but, most undoubtedly, he was
not disabled from executing public business of any other na
ture. He was in full possession of his mental faculties, could

1788.] king's illness — regency. 417
issue his orders, and instruct his ministers, just as well as
he had exercised those powers in the fullest vigour of his
youth. To advise the Prince of Wales, therefore, under such
circumstances, to take upon himself the sovereign authority,
was to advise him to be guilty of high treason ; and had the
Prince of Wales been so advised, and followed the advice,
the prince would have been guilty of high treason, and have
subjected his life to forfeiture. It was no wonder, therefore,
that Cardinal de Beaufort, feeling the weight of such an ac
cusation as that urged against him by the Duke of Gloucester,
and knowing the serious consequences to which it led, should
such a charge be proved against him, acted wisely in avow
ing his innocence, standing upon his defence, and desiring to
have the matter referred to the judges, that he might be
purged of the guilt imputable to so foul an offence.
Upon the present occasion, there had been two assertions
of positive right on both sides of the House. On his side,
the assertion of the right of the Prince of Wales, being heir
apparent, and of full age and capacity, to exercise the so
vereign authority during his majesty's infirmity. On that of
the right honourable gentleman, the assertion that the prince
had no more right to exercise the sovereign authority, under
such circumstances, than any other individual subject. He
did not understand the invidious dignity he had been exalted
to on this occasion, nor could he admit what the honourable
and learned gentleman, who spoke last, had been pleased to
lay so much stress upon, that any opinion delivered in that
House, by so humble and insignificant an individual as him
self, or by any member of what' rank and degree soever,
ought to be made the ground of a proceeding of the House.
But, since the right honourable gentleman was determined to
make a personal question between them, since he conde
scended to consider himself his rival, and chose to have re
course to his majority, why would he not try his opinion, and
let the question be, " That it is the opinion of this committee,
that his royal highness the Prince of Wales, being heir ap
parent, and of full age and capacity, has no more right to
exercise the royal authority, during his majesty's incapacity,
than any other individual subject." The right honourable
gentleman well knew, that he dared not venture to subject
such a question to debate : he well knew, that, with all his
majorities, he could not risk it; he well knew, that if he
could have so far lost sight of prudence, as to have hazarded
such a question, notwithstanding his high character, and his
known influence within those walls, there would not have
been twenty members who would have supported him in it.
In fact, he well knew, that the moment he let such an opinion
vol. in. E E

418 king's illness — regency. [Dec. 16.
escape his lips, it was execrated by all who heard it, and that
it had been since execrated, by all who had heard of it, out
of doors. What had been the result of this ? Conscious of
his error, and conscious that so monstrous a doctrine as he
had suffered himself, in an evil hour, to deliver, had revolted
the public mind, the right honourable gentleman* had seized
on the first moment that offered, to qualify what he had said,
by unnecessarily coming forward with a declaration, that,
though he would not admit the Prince of Wales's right to
exercise the sovereign authority, during the incapacity of his
father, yet he confessed that, on grounds of expediency, and
as a matter of discretion, the person to hold the regency
ought to be the Prince of Wales, and no other.
This mode of argument, Mr. Fox observed, reminded him
of what had passed in that house about thirteen years ago,
between an eminent crown lawyer, now the first law cha
racter in the kingdom, (the lord chancellor,) and himself
At the time to which he referred, the argument had been
the right of this country to tax America, when he had con
tended, that Great Britain had an undoubted right to tax
her American colonies, but, that the exercise of that right
would be, in the highest degree, unjustifiable on the part of
Great Britain. In answer to this, the great lawyer, with a
quaintness peculiar to himself, had said, " I should be glad
to know what that right is, which when attempted to be
exercised, becomes a wrong." In the present case, the right
honourable gentleman had acted upon the converse of the
great lawyer's maxim, having pronounced the right a wrong,
and then immediately proceeded to exercise it in the most
effectual manner. In one point of view only, could he ima
gine the existence of a right, which, when exercised, might
become a wrong; as for instance, the three branches of the
legislature, consisting of king, lords, and commons, had a
right to authorize and act a moral evil. They might set aside
the succession, and deprive the Prince of Wales of his here
ditary right to succeed his present majesty; but this enor
mity could not of right be practised by the two Houses of
parliament, independent of the consent of the sovereign, any
more than the minister could set himself up in competition
with the Prince of Wales, and contest with him, as a clai
mant, for the regency. For his own part, he could not
hesitate to repeat his opinion, that a right attached to the
Prince of Wales, as heir apparent, to exercise the sovereign
authority, upon the king's incapacity being declared by the
two Houses of parliament ; the prince's right, however, being
all along considered as subject to the adjudication of the two
Houses of Lords and Commons. This opinion he had not

1788.] king's illness — regency. 419.
changed, nor did he feel the smallest disposition to change it ;
and, indeed, the honourable and learned gentleman who
spoke last, seemed to coincide with his sentiments, for he
had, if he understood him rightly, expressly declared, that in
case of the demise of the crown, nothing short of an act of
exclusion could prevent the prince from succeeding to the
throne, and that even nothing short of such conduct as would
deservedly warrant an act of exclusion, ought to throw out
a Prince of Wales, of full age and full capacity, from the
regency. The counter opinion to his was fraught with so
many, and such enormous evils, that he was persuaded no
moderate man, who considered the subject with the degree
of attention that it most undoubtedly merited, would, for
a moment, maintain it, either on the ground of right, of
discretion, or of expediency. Whatever his opinion was,
why should that right be discussed, which had been neither
claimed, nor intended to be claimed? That this was the
precise state of the fact, was not to be doubted, after the
declaration which had been so graciously communicated
from the highest authority in another place. Of the manner
in which that communication had been made, and the com
mendation that was due to the exalted personage who made
it, he would not say one word; because he would not run
the risk of having what was due to merit mistaken for
fulsome adulation, and servile flattery. But, the claim thus
disavowed, how must the preamble of a bill run, truly to
describe the case as it stood at present: " Whereas his
royal highness the Prince of Wales has never claimed a
right to the regency, it becomes necessary for the lords spi
ritual and temporal, and for the commons of England, to
declare, that his royal highness has ho right, and we there
fore do hereby declare his royal highness sole regent of these
kingdoms." What. could prove more ridiculous, than a bill,
opening with this language? And so it must be worded,
unless they falsified the fact, and made a course of law a
ground- work of the bill.
All this difficulty and embarrassment was created, when
there was not the smallest occasion for it, since it was the
concurrent opinion of all mankind, that the Prince of Wales
should be the regent. Why, then, would the right honour
able gentleman thus agitate the matter, unless it were for
the little purpose of personal triumph ? Extremely censurable
was the boasting language used upon this occasion, of gra
titude to the sovereign, and the strong assertions that such
gratitude should be exemplified, by the conduct of those
who confessed themselves under personal obligations to the
sovereign. Personal attachment was no fit ground for public
e e 2

420 king's illness — regency. [Dec. 1 6.
conduct, and those who had declared they would take care
of the rights of the sovereign, because they had received
favours at his hands, betrayed a little mind, and warranted a
conclusion, that if they had not received those favours, they
would have been less mindful of their duty, and have acted
with less zeal for his interest, than if they had not been in
debted to him for any favours.
Mr. Fox owned himself indebted to the heir apparent, be
cause he had been pleased, for several years, to favour him
with his confidence; but that flattering mark of distinction
had not been made the subject of his speeches in that House,
nor had he ever considered it as a proper motive for his pub
lic conduct. Neither on the present occasion, nor at any
time, if he thought the objects of his royal highness incom
patible with the public interests, should he think he paid a
compliment to the prince, any more than he should think
he acted consistently with what was due to his own character,
in suffering the consideration of the terms on which he lived
with his royal highness to bias him in the smallest degree,
or induce him to act contrary to what he, in his conscience,
thought most likely to promote the welfare of the public:
whereas, the right honourable gentleman appeared to act
upon a very opposite principle, and repeatedly introduced
the name of the sovereign, though seldom for any other pur
pose, than an ostentatious display of the confidence reposed
in himself. To the house of Brunswick this country stood,
in an eminent degree, indebted; and, indeed, few princes
ever deserved the love of their subjects more than the princes
of that house. Since their accession to the throne, their
government had been such as to render it highly improbable,
that there should ever be ground for an act of exclusion to
pass, to set aside one of their heirs from the succession, or
that such a circumstance should ever become a necessary
subject of contemplation. If the princes of the house of
Brunswick had, at any time, differed with their subjects,
it had been only on collateral points, which had been easily
adjusted in parliament. No one of the princes of that house
had ever made any attempt against the constitution of the
country ; although, had such a mischievous design been me
ditated, a party could have been found in existence, and
ready to abet them in any scheme, the blackest and most
fatal that ever tyrant devised against the liberties or the
happiness of his subjects. The love, therefore, of the peo
ple was due to the illustrious family on the throne, in so
peculiar and eminent a degree, that every circumstance which
looked as if it could at any distance endanger the hereditary

1788.] king's illness— regency. 421
right of the house of Brunswick to the succession, ought to

*»*-

be guarded against with peculiar jealousy.
Exclusive of the concurrence of the public voice, not only
the spirit of the constitution pointed out the heir apparent
as the fittest person to be regent, but the act of settlement
might be defeated if his royal highness were passed by, and
the doctrince of the right honourable gentleman carried into
effect. In adhering to the principles of the act of settlement,
there could be no danger. If, as the honourable and learned
gentleman had said, there should be a Prince of Wales,
whose political principles were so depraved, that, in opposi
tion to his own natural interests, he should have followed
the example of Charles the First and James the Second,
either, in one instance, indicating a determination to become
a tyrant and destroy the liberties of his subject, by subvert
ing the constitution, or in the other, by connecting himself?
with France and the political enemies of his country, that
every thing fatal was to be dreaded from his government,
such a Prince of Wales ought to be excluded from the re
gency, in like manner as he undoubtedly would be excluded
from the throne, on the natural demise of his father, or pre
decessor. But then, the bill of exclusion to pass in such
case, must be the work of the legislature complete, and not
the act of two branches of the legislature only. Let the
committee consider the danger of making any other person
regent besides the Prince of Wales ! If the two Houses
could choose a regent, they might choose whom they pleased ;
they might choose a foreigner, a catholic (for the law de
fines not the regent) who, while he held the power of the
third estate, might prevail on the other two branches of the
legislature to concur with him, alter or set aside the succesr
sion, and turn away the house of Brunswick and put them
in the situation of the house of Stuart.
He perceived that this doctrine was deemed extravagant, but
he meant to put an extravagant case ; he had not, however,
put an impossible one ; let them turn to the favourite period
of our history — favourite at least with the other side of the
House that day — the reign of Henry VI., and they would
find that Richard, Duke of York, took advantage of his
power as protector of the kingdom, and actually disinherited
the Prince of Wales and the whole line of Lancaster, though
they were more nearly allied and had much better preten
sions to the crown than the house of York. The same dismal
scene which had disgraced our annals at that period, might
be acted over again, if the two Houses of parliament ever
concurred to subvert the constitution, by assuming to them
selves the exercise of .the royal prerogative, and arrogating
EE 3

422 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. [Dec. l6.
the right to legislate and make law in the teeth of the statute
of the 13th of Charles the Second, which he had, on a for
mer day found occasion to mention, and which not only de
clared, that the two Houses of parliament could not make
laws without the consent and concurrence of the king, but
also declared, that whoever should presume to affirm the
contrary, should be guilty of high treason, and incur the
pains and penalties of a premunire.
To make a law for the appointment of a regent, he con
sidered, so far as it went, as a conversion of the succession to
the monarchy from hereditary to elective; and what sort of a
constitution that was, which had an elective monarchy, Poland,
and the miserable condition of its subjects, sufficiently evinced.
The right to make laws rested only in the legislature com
plete, and not in the concurrence of any two branches of it.
Upon that very principle was our constitution built, and on
the preservation of it did its existence depend. Were the
case otherwise, the constitution might be easily destroyed, be
cause if the two branches could assume the power to make
law, they might, in that law, change the genius of the third
estate. The present situation of affairs had been compared to
the Revolution, but, in fact, it was no way similar. The throne
had then been declared vacant, and the rest of the constitution
remained. Now, the throne was declared full, but its autho
rity was suspended. At the period of the Revolution, the con
vention which was then assembled, conscious that they could
not make any change in the genius of the monarchy, until
they had a head, first restored the third estate, and then de
fined its' power. Whereas the committee were called on to
proceed in a different way; first, to new-cast the office, and
then to declare the officer. And what must be the situation
of a regent elected by that House ? He must be a pageant, a
puppet, a creature of their own, sine pondere corpus, an insult
and a mockery on every maxim of government !
Mr. Fox defined the nature and character of the three estates.
The constitution supposed each of its three branches to be
independent of the other two, and actually hostile; and if that
principle was once given up, there was an end to our political
freedom. Suppose that the crown and the Flouse of Lords
could make laws without the concurrence of the House of
Commons, or the crown and the commons independent of the
lords, or the two Flouses of parliament without the crown;
in either case, the constitution was gone. The safety of the
whole depended on the jealousy of each against the other ; not
on the patriotism of any one branch of the legislature, but
rather on the separate interests of the three, concurr ing,
through different views, to one general good, the benefit of

1788.] king's illness — regency. 423
the community — a principle congenial to human nature,
prone to the extension of power, and to the depression of a
rival! All these principles and arrangements would be de
stroyed by the present project, which would radically alter the
government, and of consequence, overturn the constitution.
Mr. Fox explained the particular powers of the crown to
defend itself against any encroachment on the part of the
commons, or to resist any faction in the House of Lords. In
the one case, by a dissolution, the king might resist the at
tempt on his prerogative, and by an encrease of the peerage,
he might quell the other. The power of giving either an as
sent or dissent from any bill, operated equally against the sin
gle design of one, or the confederate union of both Houses to
trench on the constitutional rights of the crown ; and, great
as obvious was the disadvantage of subjecting the sovereign to
such difficulties, as he would be liable to encounter, were the
power of dissolution, of encrease of peerage, and of the right
of giving the assent or dissent to bills taken away. If there was
to be a monarch, the monarchical power ought to be entire,
and, for this indisputable reason ; because the name and rank
of a king, without the possession of regal powers, was a being
which did not come within the reach of human conception.
If it appeared to the House that the royal prerogative ought
to be circumscribed, let them invest a proper person with it,
and then openly and manfully contend for the circumscription
or diminution of its powers; but to aim at an adversary
incapable of resistance was neither brave nor noble.
Mr. Fox pointed out the danger of making the regency
elective, and of the two Houses setting aside the heredi
tary right to it ; insisting that the possession of the crown,
and of the executive authority, must, in the nature of things,
be governed by the same principles. In order to illustrate
this, he put the case of a Polander asking an Englishman
whether the monarchy of Great Britain was hereditary or
elective? Any man familiar with the theory of the constitu
tion would naturally think, that the ready answer would be
that it was hereditary. But if the doctrine of that day pre
vailed, the .answer must be, " I cannot tell ; ask his majesty's
physicians. When the king of England is in good health,
the monarchy is hereditary; but when he is ill, and in
capable of exercising the sovereign authority, it is elective."
The assertion, that the British monarchy was elective, was,
however, so palpably hostile to the principles of the con
stitution, that it would not be tolerated for a moment. How,
then, was the difficulty to be surmounted ? A subtle and po
litic lawyer might be found, who would plausibly advance, that
though it must be allowed that the monarchy was here-
E E 4

424 king's illness — regency. [Dec. 16.
ditary, the executive power might be elective. Thus, the
crown and its functions might be separated, as if they were
in their nature distinct, whereas, the one was the essence, and
the other the name. Mr. Fox here pursued his argument in
an hypothetical dialogue between the Englishman and the
Pole, with the occasional aid of the politic lawyer, to reconcile
contradictions and explain apparent impossibilities, ridicul
ing the argument of the gentlemen of the long robe, that the
political, as well as the natural capacity of the king, remained
whole and entire, although he was declared incapable of ex
ercising his regal functions. If the crown was to have no
functions, why there should be a king, was beyond his imagi
nation to discover. The legal metaphysics which distinguish
ed between the crown and its functions, were to him unin
telligible. The investigators should be schoolmen and not
statesmen, fitter for colleges of disputation, than a British
House of Commons, if a question that so deeply involved
the existence of the constitution, were to be thus discussed :
and, where was that famous dictum to be found, that ex
pressly described the crown as guarded by such sanctity, and
left its powers at the mercy of every assailant ?
Having contended, that such was the absurdity of legal
metaphysics, and called upon the gownsmen to shew him
the dictum which supported the opposite assertion, that the
Prince of Wales had no more right to exercise the sovereign
authority during his majesty's incapacity, than any other in
dividual subject, Mr. Fox adverted to a part of the argu
ment advanced against him, and including an allegation,
that he had deserted the cause which he had heretofore been
supposed to claim the peculiar merit of standing forth on
all occasions to defend ; and thus manifested an inattention
to the privileges of the House of Commons, against the en
croachments of the prerogatives of the crown. Upon this oc
casion, Mr. Fox remarked, that his own resistance against
the latter, when it had been thought encreasing unconsti
tutionally, were well known. The influence of the crown had
been more than once checked in that House, and he really
believed, to the advantage of the people. Whenever the exe
cutive authority was urged beyond its reasonable extent, it
ought to be resisted, and he carried his ideas on that head
so far, that he had not scrupled to declare, that the supplies
ought to be stopped, if the royal assent were refused to a
constitutional curtailment of any obnoxious and dangerous
prerogative. Moderate men, he was aware, thought this a
violent doctrine; but he had uniformly maintained it ; and
the public had derived advantage from its having been carried
into effect. He desired to ask, however, if this was an oc-

T788.] king's illness — regency. 425
casion for exercising the constitutional power of resisting the
prerogative or the influence of the crown in that Flouse ?
He had ever made it his pride to combat with the crown
in the plentitude of its power and the fullness of its au
thority ; he wished not to trample on its rights, while it lay
extended at their feet, deprived of its functions, and incapable
of resistance. Let the right honourable gentleman pride him
self on a victory obtained against a defenceless foe ! Let him
boast of a triumph where no battle had been fought, and,
consequently, where no glory could be obtained ! Let him
take advantage of the calamities of human nature ; let him, like
an unfeeling lord of the manor, riot in the riches to be ac
quired by plundering shipwrecks, by rigorously asserting a
right to the waifs, estrays, deodands, and all the accumulated
produce of the various accidents which misfortune could throw
into his power ! Let it not be my boast, said Mr. Fox, to
have gained such victories, obtained such triumphs, or availed
myself of wealth so acquired !
Mr. Fox declared, that all the labour of the committee ap
pointed to search for precedents had been fruitless, for that
not one of the precedents applied. If they tended to prove
any thing, it was to establish the prince's right : since, in all
of them, the nearest relative to the crown, if in the kingdom,
had been appointed the regent, and especially a Prince of
Wales. In the reign of Edward the Third, his son, com
monly called the Black Prince, was declared regent, at only
thirteen years of age, during the invasion of France by his
father; and, afterwards, during the absence of Edward and
the prince, his brother, Lionel, Duke of Clarence was ap
pointed. The regencies in the reign of Henry the Sixth proved
the right of the Prince of Wales the more fully, because,
in that reign, the right of the Prince of Wales was recog
nized, although he was not a year old, in the very patent
which appointed the Duke of York protector. Mr. Fox now
observed, that an honourable gentleman had, in the course
of the debate, chosen to remark, that the right honourable
the chancellor of the exchequer stood higher in the opinion
of the public, at present, than he did. Before any gentleman
took upon himself to pronounce on such topics, he ought to
be sure that he was right in his assertion. He had every rea
son to believe, that the honourable gentleman was mistaken
in what he had asserted, having lately had an opportunity of
meeting his constituents, and having then received the most
unequivocal and flattering proofs of their confidence and
kindness. He agreed, however, most cordially with that ho
nourable gentleman, in every observation that he had made, of
the probable effects of the present motion, if persisted in,

426 king's illness — regency. [Dec. ICJ.
with regard to Ireland, and the creation of a difference be
tween the two Houses of parliament. With respect to Ire
land, if the two Houses of the British parliament named the
Prince of Wales as regent of right, most probably, the par
liament of Ireland would do the same ; if they speculated, the
Irish parliament would speculate. Let them decide wisely,
and their decission would be followed, as an example. If the
question of right was but once set afloat, it would become im
possible to say to what extent it might be carried.
Mr. Fox said he would again call in question the necessity
for the present proceeding, and urge the fallacy of pretend
ing, that the opinion, which he, as a private member of that
House, had delivered, and the opinion, which his noble and
learned friend (Lord Loughborough) had d.elivered~elsewhere,
made it necessary. He reprobated the indecency of selecting
the arguments of his noble and learned friend, and falsely apply
ing them merely for the purpose of placing them in a ridicu
lous point of view. The right honourable gentleman must have
known, that the arguments of his noble and learned friend
were arguments merely advanced to prove that the Prince
of Wales, as Prince of Wales and heir apparent, had rights pe
culiar and distinct from those of ordinary subjects, and not with
a view to prove his right to exercise the sovereign authority.
The manner, therefore, in which the right honourable gen
tleman had answered those arguments betrayed a narrow
ness of mind which he had not imagined the right ho
nourable gentleman would have condescended to have ac
knowledged. Mr. Fox desired to know the use of bringing forward a
question of right, when the expediency of constituting the
Prince of Wales regent was, on all hands, agreed upon. He
charged the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer
with a determination to legislate, without the power to do so
effectually, which would alter the genius of the third estate,
without any crime alleged against either the sovereign, de
clared, for the present, incapable to exercise the royal autho
rity, or the intended regent. If they could make whom they
pleased regent, they could appoint the regent for a day, a
month, or a year, turning the monarchy into a republic as
had been the case with Rome. And while the right honour
able gentleman denied, that the Prince of Wales had any more
right than he himself had, he confessed it would be a breach
of duty to think of any other regent, — and all this for the paltry
triumph of a vote over him, and to insult a prince, whose fa
vour he was conscious he had not deserved !
Mr. Fox declared he was ready to admit, that the right
honourable gentleman's administration had been, in some re-
15

1788.] king's illness— regency. 427
spects, entitled to praise ; he was ready to say what were the
parts that, in his opinion, most deserved commendation, and
as willing to give them his applause as any member of that
House. What he alluded to, were the measures adopted to
detach Holland from its connection with France. The whole
conduct of that transaction, as well as its issue, was wise and
vigorous, laudable and effectual, and he was happy to take
that opportunity of delivering his sentiments concerning the
right honourable gentleman's ministerial conduct upon that
occasion. Of his other measures, he certainly entertained a
very different opinion. The right honourable gentleman,
however, appeared to have been so long in the possession of
power, that he could not endure to part with it : he had ex
perienced the full favour of the crown, and enjoyed the ad
vantage of exerting all its prerogatives ; and, finding the ope
ration of the whole not too much for the successful carrying
on of the government, he had determined to cripple his suc
cessors, and deprive them of the same advantages which he
had possessed ; and thus circumscribe their power to serve their
country ; as if he dreaded that they would shade his fame.
Let the right honourable gentleman, for a moment suppose,
that the business of detaching Holland from France, or any
contingency of equal importance, remained to be executed ;
he must know, that there would be no power in the country
" to seize the advantage, if the right honourable gentleman's
principles were right. For his own part, Mr. Fox declared,
that he could not avoid calling most fervently upon every
honest member of that House not to vote without perfectly
understanding what the question went to, as well as the other
resolutions. With regard to the right honourable gentleman's
motives, he knew not what they were; but if there was an am
bitious man in that House, who designed to drive the empire
into confusion, his conduct, he conceived, would be exactly
that which the right honourable gentleman had pursued.
The resolutions moved, appeared, in his opinion, insidi
ously calculated to convey a censure on the sentiments which
he delivered, while they served as an instrument of evasion of
an assertion, highly revolting to the public mind, made by the
right honourable gentleman himself. This he reprobated, as
a pitiful shift, totally irreconcileable with the confidence which
the right honourable gentleman placed in the expectation of a
majority. In majorities, Mr. Fox declared he had no great
trust ; he had for many years had the mortification to find
himself in a minority in that House ; and yet, upon a change
of situation, he had generally found, that the majority, who had
before divided against him, divided with him. For more than
- eighteen years of his political life had he been obliged to stem

428 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. [Dec. 22.
the torrent of power, and sometimes he had enjoyed the satis
faction of finding himself in a majority of the same parliament,
of which, in the prosecution of the same principles and the de
clarations of the same designs, he had before been only sup
ported by a minority.
The question was then put upon the motion made by Lord
North ; when there appeared Yeas 204': Noes 268. The second
and third resolutions were then severally put, and carried without
farther debate. On the 18th, the House adjourned on account of
the illness of Mr. Fox, to the day following ; when Mr. Pitt being
called upon to inform the House more distinctly of the mode of
proceeding he intended to adopt, stated, that as, in contemplation
of law, his majesty's political capacity was entire, he should pro
pose, that their proceedings should be under the royal authority,
delegated by a commission under the great seal. That commis
sioners so appointed should open the parliament in the name of
his majesty, in the usual form, and afterwards give the royal assent
to such bills as might be passed by^the two Houses, for appointing
a regent to exercise so much of the royal authority as was neces
sary to be exercised during his majesty's indisposition. This he
conceived to be the only mode of proceeding that could be adopted
consistently with the principles of the constitution. The report
from the committee being then brought up, and the first resolu
tion read and agreed to, the second was objected to ; and it was
moved, by way of amendment, first, that the word " right" should
be left out of the resolution ; and afterwards, that instead of the
words " in such manner as the exigence of the case may require"
the following should be inserted, " by presenting an address to the
Prince of Wales, heir apparent, and of full age, beseeching him
to take upon himself the administration of the civil and military
government of the country, during the indisposition of his majesty,
and no longer." These amendments were moved by Mr. Demp
ster and Mr. Powys, and negatived without a division. The third
resolution being then read, Mr. Dempster again moved an amend
ment upon it, the debate on which was adjourned to the twenty-
second. December 22.
The order of the day being moved, for resuming the adjourned
debate, the Speaker read the motion which had been made by Mr.
Dempster for the amendment to the third resolution. The Reso
lution of the committee stood thus : " Resolved, That for this
purpose, and for maintaining entirely the constitutional authority
of the king, it is necessary that the said lords spiritual and temporal,
and commons, of Great Britain, should determine on the means
whereby the royal assent may be given in parliament to such bill
as may be passed by the two Houses of parliament, respecting the
exercise of the powers and authorities of the king, during the
continuance of his majesty's present indisposition." The amend
ment was to leave out from the word " determine," to the end of
14

I788.3 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 429
the said resolution, in order to insert these words, " Humbly to
address his royal highness the Prince of Wales, to take the care
of the administration of the civil and military government of the
kingdom, during the continuance of his majesty's indisposition,
and no longer." After the amendment had been opposed by the
solicitor-general Sir John Scott, and supported by Mr. Burke, Sir
John Aubrey, Lord Fielding, and Lord North,
Mr. Fox rose. He said that he would treat the important
subject before the House in as short a manner as possible, but
if he should be obliged to detain them for any length of time,
they must impute it as much to the extraordinary doctrines
which had been thrown out that night, as to the anxiety which
he might have to press his own opinions upon their attention.
He wished to have had an opportunity of speaking imme
diately after the honourable and learned gentleman, the soli
citor-general, whose doctrines had struck him as highly in
consistent with the conclusions which he had drawn from
them; and whose whole train of reasoning on the subject
was, in his mind, enveloped in a nice kind of legal meta
physics, admirably calculated to confound the plain under
standings of unlearned men, but which, when stripped of
its covering, would appear to be totally inapplicable to the
subject. There were two positions of the honourable and learned
gentleman which he was particularly anxious to recall to the
memory of the House, and which in all that he should have
occasion to dwell upon, he begged gentlemen to bear in mind,
and carry with them. The first was a general maxim, im
plying, " that the power which necessity creates necessity also
limits." The second was, " that in this and every other exi
gency, the two Houses of parliament were bound to search for,
discover, and act by what is the law, according to the forms of
the constitution." These two principal points in the ho
nourable and learned gentleman's speech he wished to carry
in his mind, and to reason from ; and acting upon the last 01
these doctrines, he agreed, that it was a fundamental duty to
enquire and ascertain the distinction between the powers of the-
House in what they could do by resolution and address, and
what they could do by bill ; that was to Say, what they could
do as a complete and distinct proceeding of their own, inde
pendent of the other branches of the legislature ; and what
they could do, as making a part of, and in conjunction with
the other two Houses of parhament. That this was their
duty he perfectly agreed with the honourable and learned
gentleman ; and he was equally disposed with him to hold
sacred and to regard the forms of the constitution : but he
held them sacred only in so far as they were the outguards

43° KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [Dec 22-
and protectors of the main body of the constitution. The
moment that they ceased to be the guardians, and became the
betrayers, he could no longer venerate the forms, but must
instantly refer to the substance and essence of the constitu
tion. If a violent infringement should be made on any of
the fundamental principles of the system which they all pro
fessed to revere, and this attack were made under the specious
disguise of the outward forms of the constitution which it was
intended to undermine, could he hesitate for a moment which
party he was to take, that of the forms, or that of the sub
stance? There could not be a moment's delay, and he there
fore in the present discussion felt it to be his first duty to
enquire whether the measures now proposed were not in
direct hostility to the principles of the constitution, while by
miserable juggle and a fraud they pretended to be consistent
with the forms.
For his own part, he should conceive, that in the present
exigency there were three courses to be pursued, of which,
whether that proposed in the amendment by the honourable
gentleman (Mr. Dempster) might be the best or not, that
proposed by the right honourable the chancellor of the exche
quer was manifestly the worst. And this he thought he should
be able to make evident, even taking the matter up on the
right honourable gentleman's own ground — the hollow, mi
serable, and defective ground of precedent. That of king
Henry VI. had been most particularly insisted on. Now,
though he could not allow that the minority of a king, with
the temporary incapacity from disease, were analogous, he
would not hesitate to examine the precedent of Henry VI.
and compare it with the present. On the death of Henry V.
a commission was issued under the great seal, appointing the
Duke of Gloucester to the regency, with full powers to exer
cise the royal authority, and to use his discretion folly and
freely in trust for the minor king. By this first step, the third
estate was restored before the two Houses took upon them to
do any one act in the shape of legislation ; and the regent
being thus vested with the full exercise of the prerogative,
the parhament was able to confirm by one act the first measure
of the issuing of the commission. If that proceeding had been
followed in the present case, would our situation have been
the same as it then was, or as it would be if the measure pro
posed by the right honourable gentleman were adopted? By
that measure, it was proposed, that, instead of the lineal suc
cessor, invested with full discretion, the two Houses should
nominate and invest a creature of their own, not with discre
tionary power, but with a ministerial authority to affix the
great seal to whatever they should chuse to pass. The pre-

t /88.3 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY.

43 l

cedent of Henry VI. militated directly against the course
now proposed. That precedent clearly went to the nomit
nation of the next lineal successor to the crown, and to his in
vestment with all the functions of royalty, whereas, the pro
posed course was to set up an intermediate person, out of the
fine of succession, and to take from him all discretion. The
absurdity of this proceeding was equal to its indecency. This
creature of the two Houses was to be bound to give the royal
assent. Was it ever heard of, or imagined before, that there
could be a power, of giving assent without a power also of dis
senting ? The very term demonstrated the absurdity. A per
son's consenting to a thing evidently implied that he had the
power not to consent. There was a person to be set up with
out power, without discretion, and yet this pageant was to
give the form of a parliamentary act to the proceedings of the
two Houses. By the precedent in the commencement of the
reign of Henry VI. the regent was invested with the power of
the royal negative, and with the corresponding and essential
powers of proroguing or dissolving, and of convening
parliaments. By this, in the first instance, the three es
tates were restored to their several functions, and the par
hament being made complete, they were able, by an act of
legislation, to justify and legalize the measure by which they
were thus established. The precedent of Henry the Sixth
then pointed out to the House these two important facts :
1. That the power was given, in the first instance, to the next
in succession to the crown ; and in this nomination, the full,
absolute authority of the sovereign was entrusted to him. 2.
That, though afterwards hmitations were put to the duke's ex
ercise of the prerogative, the limitations were made in full par
hament, when the duke constituted the third estate, and when
from each of the bills restraining his authority, he might have
withholden his assent.
These two historical facts were contained in this precedent,
and though the Duke of Gloucester afterwards complained of
the limitations which were made, his complaint was unjust,
since they were made with his known consent. He was by no
means of" opinion, that the precedent of Henry the Sixth
would bear him out as a guide which they ought to follow :
but, there was one point which it forcibly demonstrated, that
in vesting the royal authority in the next in succession, our
ancestors clearly understood that they were dcting consistently
with the spirit of the constitution. The particulars of the case
were curious. On the death of Henry the Fifth, the Bishop
of Durham, then lord chancellor, delivered the great seal
into the hands of the infant king, then nine months old, and
the Duke ©f Gloucester, of his own authority, delivered it

43^ KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [Dec. 22.
into the hands of the master of the rolls, by whom it was
used. This was rather a strong measure ; and yet in the par
liament which succeeded, although acts of indemnity were
passed for almost every other measure, yet no act of indem
nity was passed for this: so convinced were our ances
tors of that day of the propriety of vesting the royal autho
rity in the next line of succession.
Upon this occasion he was ready to acknowledge, that he
could not put any value on the subsequent acts of the par
hament of that miserable reign. They, who proceeded to
lengths so astonishingly absurd as to declare the minor king
fit to reign at the age of eight, and again at the age of nine,
and who declared him incapable to reign when he came to the
age of thirteen, could not be referred to as models either of
wisdom or consistency ; but this he asserted, that all their
proceedings tended to shew, that though they would not make
for his argument, they were directly and strongly against that
of the right honourable gentleman.
Previous to his investigation of the other precedents, he
must state, that taking them altogether, they served to di
vide the subject in two parts, and to elucidate two natural
points, as principles of the constitution, i. That no man
ever was to hold the regency in trust for the crown, but
the next in succession. And, 2. that no man was to hold it
but with the powers incidental to the office ; that was, with
the powers constitutionally belonging to the crown. These
two principles the precedents all contributed to demonstrate
and strongly inculcate, except in cases where the adherence
to them was impracticable. Was there in the present emer
gency any reason for departing from this safe and constitu
tional course ? And yet, what was the measure to be pursued ?
A commission was to be granted to a person — not to the
Prince of Wales ; not to any branch of the royal family ; and
by this commission, this person was to be created into the
third estate of the realm, without possessing one of the func
tions of that estate.
Would the advocates of such measures take upon them
selves to ascertain whether the two Houses had any such
power, which they could derive either from precedent, from
analogy, from the letter, or from the spirit of the constitu
tion ? No point could be more distinct and more clearly de
fined, than the powers and proceedings of the two Houses,
taken individually, and the powers and proceedings of the
three estates in conjunction ; and yet, in all the agitation of
this matter, they had been industriously confounded. In
speaking, therefore, of their separate powers, he would distin-

1788.] KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY.

433

guish between them thus : when speaking of the two Houses
by themselves, he would call them the two Houses of par
liament; when speaking of the three estates, in their ample
form, he would call -them the legislature. It would not be
denied, it would not be disputed, that the powers of these bo
dies were completely distinct ; and they surely were not to
draw precedents from the acts of the legislature for the govern
ment of the two Houses : yet, all the precedents on which
they were now called upon to proceed, were acts of the legis
lature; and they were not to be considered, at this moment,
as any other than a convention of the two Houses of parlia
ment. As they were not the legislature, they were not to look
for precedents of the legislature. They could be instructed
only by precedents in the proceedings of the two Houses of
parliament, when deprived of the third estate.
Most undoubtedly the convention at the Revolution was
the only place to which they could truly look for such a pre
cedent. On this subject he wished to be clearly understood.
If the distinction which he drew in this case was capricious and
unfounded, he would throw himself open to correction ; but,
it was a distinction which in his mind had great weight, and
which should be seriously considered, when the precedent
was brought to bear in the present instance. He declared
then, that the case of necessity at the Revolution was a neces
sity not proceeding from accident, but from real danger.
The vacancy of the throne did not proceed from the malady
of the king, as afflicted by Providence, but from the violent
infringements which the king had made on the liberties of the
people, by which their allegiance from him had been consti
tutionally withdrawn ; and in the tumult he had fled from their
just vengeance. Thus outraged and injured, threatened with
a foreign enemy in support of a tyrant, there was a necessity
in which all forms must give way to the substance and essence
of the constitution. They had not in that necessity the choice
of conduct. Their first, bounden, constitutional duty, was
to protect themselves against the danger which threatened ;
and therefore he assumed it as an uncontrovertible position,
that what they did under the immediate pressure of this ne
cessity, did not and could not apply to the present necessity.
Why ? Because the cases were in ng degree parallel. Our
liberties had not been infringed by the monarch, and they
were not threatened by any pretender ; nor did France, or
any other foreign state, meditate any attack in support of any
forfeited right. In the present instance, there was an inter
ruption occasioned by the temporary derangement of the
king, while the empire enjoyed a complete peace, and there
was an heir apparent of ripe age, and of perfect qualification.
VOL. III. F F

434

KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [Dec. 22.

The two cases of necessity were not similar, and the proceed
ings of the convention, springing from the necessity, did not
apply ; but he was ready to acknowledge, that every pro
ceeding of theirs which could be referred to free agency, and
in which they were not shackled by the dangers that sur
rounded them, did apply to the present case.
Arguing on these two preliminary positions, if it should
be said that the convention overlooked the line of hereditary
succession, passed over the claim of the Prince of Wales, if
there was any Prince of Wales, and also the right of Queen
Mary, his answer would be, that in doing so, they acted
under the pressure of the necessity, well knowing that they
could only preserve to the kingdom its liberties and consti
tution, by putting the crown into the hand of a person able
to defend and protect them. Their election of King William,
therefore, he thought an act of positive necessity, which did not
apply to the present case. The mode of their electing him
he considered as an act of discretion, and that, therefore, did
apply. King William, with all his great and glorious qualities,
certainly did not possess such a knowledge of our constitution
as to have had in his mind any preference as to the manner
in which the crown should be conferred on him. His edu
cation, chiefly military, did not lead him much to the discussion
of the forms of our parliamentary proceeding ; and whether
it came to him by declaration of the two Houses, by address,
or by an act passed with the affectation of legal forms, was
a matter which he believed would have been indifferent to him,
and therefore he took it for granted that the convention acted
from their own volition. And how did the two Houses act ?
They might have ordered a new great seal to be made ; they
might have created a pageant, and giving to themselves the
empty form, without the reality or the essence of a perfect
parliament, they might have committed an insulting fraud,
and in the mere mockery of legislation have passed an im
potent act, conveying to King William the crown. But,
knowing and feeling the distinct powers possessed by the two
Houses, and possessed by the legislature ; knowing that their
organs were distinct, and that their proceedings could not be
confounded, nor mistaken the one for the other ; knowing that
the two Houses could by their organization act only by reso
lutions and addresses, and that the legislature could again act
only by bill and statute, the convention proceeded by that
course which was consistent with their functions — by address.
Here was a precedent in the Revolution, applicable to the
present case. Address the Prince of Wales to take upon
him the exercise of the royal authority, and thus by one
step making the legislature complete, the course to be pursued
was easy and palpable; pass an act to quiet the minds

I788.] KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 435
of the people, as to the informality of the first measure. He
further illustrated the analogy of this part of the precedent of
the Revolution, by stating that the convention divided the
grievances of which they complained into two classes ; 1 . pro
ceeding from the violation of the laws, by the tyranny of
King James the second : 2. proceeding from the inadequacy
of the laws to the protection of the subject. The first the
two Houses thought themselves warranted to declare, and
properly considered a declaration of their rights to be suf
ficient. The second they as properly left to the legislature,
well knowing that they could only be provided for by re
medial laws. Upon the whole, therefore, he felt himself war-
Tanted to assert, that, reviewing these two precedents, he dis
covered that the precedent of Henry the sixth, if it did not
make exactly for him, made directly and totally against the
right honourable gentleman. That of the Revolution clearly
and intelligibly pointed out to the two Houses the measure of
an address, as the true, constitutional mode of supplying the
king's incapacity.
And yet, it was not solely by viewing the constitution in
its spirit, that they were taught to avoid the monstrous error
of the two Houses attempting t» legislate. The 13 th of
Charles the second expressly declared, that the two Houses
.could not make laws without the king. Oh ! but, said the
honourable and learned gentleman, this statute could not
apply; for the king, though at present rendered incapable,
had still, in the eye of the law, all his political capacity, and
the throne was to all intents and purposes full. The throne
being full, but the king incapable, what were they to do ?
To appoint a person who was to give the royal assent to
bills to be passed ? Indeed ! How was this person to know
the royal pleasure ? Was he to go to Kew to apply to the
royal person, whom Providence had deprived of the power of
assent or dissent ? Human reason revolted from the absur
dity ! Was there a permanent authoritative council to which
he could apply ? None. Could he exercise his own will ?
No : he was deprived of all discretion. To whom then only
could he apply ? To the two Houses of parliament that gave
him being ; and thus we had a monster unknown, unheard of
in our history ! We had indeed formerly two Houses of
parliament, that proceeded first to legislate, and then to act.
Had the honourable and learned gentleman been the then
solicitor-general, instead of Oliver St. John, he would not
have felt himself at any loss to legalize all the proceedings of
the long parliament ; he would have issued a commission, in
the name of the king, and, by the creation of a pageant, have
affixed the great seal to each of the ordinances, and having so
f f 2

43<5 KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. [Dec. 22.
done he would have exclaimed, Here are perfect statutes
according to law ! But the king's name could not be used
against the king's authority; and setting up a man of
straw, for the purpose of limiting the prerogative, was in
fact and truth an infringement and outrage of the royal
authority. He did not mean to combat the doctrine, that the two
Houses of parliament were competent, by resolution or ad
dress, to supply the present deficiency; but he should beg
leave to contend, that if they proceeded farther, if they assumed
to themselves powers which belonged to the legislature, and
proceeded to legislate, the judges would laugh at their acts ;
there was not a court in which they would be recognized,
nor a corner of the kingdom in which they would have the
efficiency of law. Declare the right, or the propriety of the
prince's taking on him the exercise of the royal authority ; or
address him in direct terms to assume it ; and parliament will
be enabled instantly to put on its legislative authority. Then
there would be a third estate, and the executive power would
fall into the hands of that person who was most concerned
in the preservation of the monarchy ; and who by every claim
of lineage, of hereditary fitle, of interest, of constitutional
pre-eminence, was pointed out on the emergency to be the
regent during the incapacity of his royal father. If instead
of this, they proceeded to metamorphose themselves into
the form of the legislature, what was there but their own
temperance as a security for the most unconstitutional out
rages ? While they contained themselves within the limits
of their true authority, they were safe. The moment they
went farther, jeopardy attended every step, and there was no
foreseeing what violence and error might ensue.
All this, said the honourable and learned gentleman, is very
plausible ; but during the life of the king there was no per
son that could have a right to act for him. Then why did
they presume to confer this right on the lord chancellor ?
" Oh, but we have a right," continued the honourable and
learned gentleman, "to make the chancellor do what we please,
and to act according to our will ; but we have no power to
permit the Prince of Wales to act according to his will." By
this doctrine, they had the power to appoint themselves
regents, but no power to appoint the heir apparent. Mon
strous and indecent incongruity !
Upon this occasion, he should freely admit, that by address
ing the Prince of Wales to take upon him the exercise of royal
authority, they did an informal act; but it was an act which
the necessity of the case was sufficient to justify. To make
the chancellor put the great seal to the proposed commission

1788.] KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. 437
was also informal. - Let the two acts be examined and com
pared. Do the first, and the prince instantly holds the par
liament, the legislature is complete, and the informal act may
be ratified. If the chancellor puts the great seal to what
ever bill the two Houses shall pass, not a step is gained ; for
the remedy itself is also unconstitutional and inefficient. You
propose one means, we propose another. Our proposition
instantly re-produces legislature ; yours, a monster unknown to
the constitution. We do all that the necessity requires ; you
do infinitely more ; and here we come to the maxim, that the
power which necessity creates necessity also limits. We do
but one informal act ; you, two or more. You proceed to chuse
an inconvenient regent for the purpose of getting at the con
venient regent, whom we reach at once. We proceed to
limit his power, if it must be limited, legally, when, the legis
lature is complete. You proceed to do this, when there exists
in the country no power that is competent to the measure.
You dp that by a fraud and a fiction, which we do constitu
tionally and legally. We do that with the perfect organs of
the legislature, which you cannot do without breaking through
the real functions of the two Houses of parliament.
Mr. Fox concluded with some observations on the words of
the resolution. He had, he said, in the course of this dis
cussion, thrown out an opinion, that a right attached to the
heir apparent to exercise the functions pf royalty, during the
incapacity of the king, and that the two Houses should recog
nize this right, and put him in possession of it. In opposition to
this opinion, the two Houses had come to a resolution, that they
alone possessed the right of nominating to the regency ; but
at the same time declaring they thought the prince the most
proper person to be appointed.' Bowing to their decision, he
now wished them to go on, and to appoint the prince regent.
Instead of this, what was the language and spirit of the next
resolution ? That they have no right, that they cannot appoint
him. They must first do what never was done before in the
history of this country ; they must first form themselves into a
legislature. Thus theyfirst make a declaration of a right purely
abstract ; and having made it, they shrink from the exercise of
the right they have arrogated. He then warned the House
against the adoption of specious pretexts, by which, under
the colour of original principles, they were to assume powers
inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution. There was no
way so certain of bringing the popular branch of the legisla
ture into popular odium, as by deviating from the precise path
marked out for it in the constitution, and straying within the
limits of the other two, which it was their duty to watch, but
never to invade.
ef 3

438 King's ILLNESS — regency. [Jan. 6.
The question being put, that the words proposed to be left out
etand part of the said resolution, the House divided :
Tellers. Tellers.
v „ f Mr. Neville 1 *. fMr. Grey \ -
YEAS j Mr. Steele j 2*J  N°ES JLord Maitland j ^8'
The amendment was consequently lost. The original resolu
tion was then put and agreed to ; and the three resolutions were
ordered to be delivered to the Lords at a conference, and then-
concurrence to be desired.
On the 29th of December, Mr. Cornwall, Speaker of the House
of Commons, was seized with a dreadful illness, which, four days
after, viz. on the 2d of January 1789, ended in his death. The
House meeting on the 5th, Mr. William Wyndham Grenville*,
was proposed by the friends of ministers as his successor, and
Sir Gilbert Elliot by opposition : the election was carried in favour
of the former, by a majority of 215 to 144.

January 6. 1789.
The preliminary subjects having been discussed by both Houses,
Mr. Pitt, before he explained to parliament the plan which he had
formed for the constitution of a regency, submitted its outlines to
the Prince of Wales, in the following Letter :
" Sir,
" The proceedings in parliament being now brought to a point,
which will render it necessary to propose to the House of Com
mons, the particular measures to be taken for supplying the defect
of the personal exercise of the royal authority, during the present
interval, and your ro3'al highness having some time since signified
your pleasure, that any communication on this subject should be
in writing, I tpke the liberty of respectfully entreating your royal
highness's permission to submit to your consideration the outlines
of the plan, which his majesty's confidential servants humbly con
ceive (according to the best judgment which they are able to form1)
to be proper to be proposed in the present circumstances.
" It is their humble opinion, that your royal highness should
be empowered to exercise the royal authority in the name and on
the behalf of his majesty, during his majesty's illness, and to do
all acts which might legally be done by his majesty ; with provi
sions, nevertheless, that the care of his majesty's royal person, and
the management of his majesty's household, and the direction and
appointment of the officers and servants therein, should be in the
queen, under such regulations as may be thought necessary 
That the power to be exercised by your royal highness should not
extend to the granting the real or personal property of the king,
{except as far as relates to the renewal of leases), to the granting
any office in reversion, or to the granting, for any other term than

* The present Lord Grenville.

I789-] KING'S ILLNESS— REGENCY.

439

during his majesty's pleasure, any pension, or any office whatever,
except such as must by law be granted for life, or during good
behaviour ; nor to the granting any rank or dignity of the peerage
of this realm to any person except his majesty's issue who shall
have attained the age of 2 1 years.
" These are the chief points which have occurred to his ma
jesty's servants. I beg leave to add, that their ideas are formed
on the supposition that his majesty's illness is only temporary, and
may be of no long duration. It may be difficult to fix beforehand,
the precise period for which these provisions ought to last ; but if
unfortunately his majesty's recovery should be protracted to a
more distant period than there is reason at present to imagine,
it will be open hereafter to the wisdom of parliament, to recon
sider these provisions, whenever the circumstances appear to call
for it.
" If your royal highness should be pleased to require any far
ther explanation on the subject, and should condescend to signify
your orders, that I should have the honour of attending your royal
highness for that purpose, or to intimate any other mode in which
your royal highness may wish to receive such explanation, I shall
respectfully wait your royal highness's commands. I have the
honour to be, with the utmost deference and submission, Sir, your
royal highness's most dutiful and devoted servant,
Downing Street, Tuesday Night, " W. Pitt."
December 30, 1788.
On the 1st of January the following Answer was delivered by his
royal highness to the lord chancellor, to be conveyed to Mr.
Pitt:
" The Prince of Wales learns from Mr. Pitt's letter, that the
proceedings in parliament are now in a train, which enables Mr.
Pitt, according to the intimation in his former letter, to commu
nicate to-the prince the outlines of the plan which his majesty's
confidential servants conceive to be proper to be proposed in the
present circumstances.
" Concerning the steps already taken by Mr. Pitt, the prince is
silent. Nothing done by the two Houses of parliament can be a
proper subject of his animadversion ; but when, previously to any
discussion in parliament, the outlines of a scheme of government
are sent for his consideration, in which it is proposed that he shall
be personally and principally concerned, and by which the royal
authority, and the public welfare, may be deeply affected, the
prince would be unjustifiable, were he to withhold an explicit
declaration of his sentiments. His silence might be construed
into a previous approbation of a plan, the accomplishments of which
every motive of duty to his father and sovereign, as well as of
regard for the public interest, obliges him to consider as injurious
to both.
" In the state of deep distress in which the prince and the
whole royal family were involved, by the heavy calamity which
has fallen upon the king, and at a moment when government, de
prived of its chief energy and support, seemed peculiarly to need

440 king's ILLNESS — regency. [Jan. 6
the cordial and united aid of all descriptions of good subjects, it
was not expected by the prince, that a plan should be offered to
his consideration, by which government was to be rendered dif
ficult, if not impracticable, in the hands of any person intended
to represent the king's authority, much less in the hands of his
eldest son — the heir apparent of his kingdoms, and the person
most bound to the maintenance of his majesty's just prerogatives
and authority, as well as most interested in the happiness, the
prosperity, and the glory of the people.
" The prince forbears to remark on the several parts of the
sketch of the plan laid before him; he apprehends it must have
been formed with sufficient deliberation to preclude the proba
bility of any argument of his producing an alteration of sentiment
in the projectors of it. But he trusts, with confidence, to the
wisdom and justice of parliament, when the whole of this subject,
and the circumstances connected with it, shall come under their
deliberation. " He observes, therefore, only generally on the heads com
municated by Mr. Pitt — and it is with deep regret the prince
makes the observation, that he sees in the contents of that paper,
a project for producing weakness, disorder, and insecurity in every
branch of the administration of affairs, — a project for dividing
the royal family from each other — for separating the court from
the state ; and therefore, by disjoining government from its natural
and accustomed support, a scheme for disconnecting the authority
to command service, from the power of animating it by reward ;
and for allotting to the prince all the invidious duties of govern
ment, without the means of softening them to the public, by any
one act of grace, favour, or benignity.
" The prince's feelings on contemplating this plan, are also ren
dered still more painful to him, by observing that it is not founded
on any general principle, but is calculated to infuse jealousies and
suspicions (wholly groundless, he trusts) in that quarter, whose
confidence it will ever be the first pride of his life to merit and
obtain. " With regard to the motive and object of the limitations and
restrictions proposed, the prince can have but little to observe.
No light or information is offered him by his majesty's ministers
on these points. They have informed him what the powers are
which they mean to refuse him, not why they are withheld.
" The prince, however, holding as he does, that it is an un
doubted and fundamental principle of this constitution, that the
powers and prerogatives of the crown are vested there, as a trust
for the benefit of the people ; and that they are sacred only as they
are necessary to the preservation of that poise and balance of the
constitution, which experience has proved to be the true security
of the liberty of the subject — must be allowed to observe, that
the plea of public utility ought to be strong, manifest, and urgent,
which calls for the extinction or suspension of any one of those
essential rights in the supreme power or its representative ; or
which can justify the prince in consenting, that in his person an
experiment shall be made, to ascertain with how small a portion
»3

I789.] KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. 44 I
of the kingly power the executive government of this country may
be carried on.
" The prince has only to add, that if security for his majesty's
re-possessing his rightful government, whenever it shall please
Providence, in bounty to the country, to remove the calamity with
which he is afflicted, be any part of the object of this plan, the
prince has only to be convinced that any measure is necessary,
or even conducive to that end, to be the first to urge it as the
preliminary and paramount consideration of any settlement in
which he would consent to share.
" If attention to what is presumed might be his majesty's feel
ings and wishes on the happy day of his recovery, be tht* object,
it is with the truest sincerity the prince expresses his firm con
viction, that no event would be more repugnant to the feelings of
his royal father, than the knowledge, that the government of his
son and representative had exhibited the sovereign power of the
realm in a state of degradation, of curtailed authority and dimi
nished energy — a state, hurtful in practice to the prosperity and
good government of his people, and injurious in its precedent to
the security of the monarch, and the rights of his family.
" Upon that part of the plan which regards the king's real and
personal property, the prince feels himself compelled to remark,
that it was not necessary for Mr. Pitt, nor proper to suggest to
the prince, the restraint he proposes against the prince's granting
away the king's real and personal property. The prince does not
conceive, that, during the king's life, he is, by law, entitled to
make any such grant ; and he is sure, that he has never shewn the
smallest inclination to possess any such power. But it remains
with Mr. Pitt to consider the eventual interests of the royal fa
mily, and to provide a proper and natural security against the
mismanagement of them by others.
" The prince has discharged an indispensable duty, in thus
giving his free opinion on the plan submitted to his consideration.
" His conviction of the evils which may arise to the king's in
terests, to the peace and happiness of the royal family, and to the
safety and welfare of the nation, from the government of the coun
try remaining longer in its present maimed and debilitated state,
outweighs in the prince's mind, every other consideration, and
will determine him to undertake the painful trust inrp'osed upon
him by the present melancholy necessity (which of all the king's
subjects he deplores the most), in full confidence, that the affec
tion and loyalty to the king, the experienced attachment to the
house of Brunswick, and the generosity which has always distin
guished this nation, will carry him through the many difficulties,
inseparable from this most critical situation, with comfort to him
self, with honour to the king, and with advantage to the public.
(Signed) " G.P."
Carlton House, January 1. 1789.
Mr. Pitt having given notice that he should this day propose
to the House the restrictions, within which the exercise of the
regal power should be granted to the regent, Mr. Loveden, the
member for Abingdon, rose as soon as the order of the day was

442 king's ILLNESS — REGENCY. [Jan. 6.
read, and moved, " That a considerable space of time having
elapsed since the examination of the physicians, with respect to
the state of his majesty's health, it is necessary to know whether
any alteration or amendment has taken place, and therefore, that
the physicians be called upon to inform this House if the present
symptoms are such as give reason to hope for the king's speedy
recovery." This motion gave rise to a warm debate. As an
entire change in the ministerial offices of government was con
sidered as one of the immediate consequences of the appointment
of the Prince of Wales to the regency, the restrictions which Mr.
Pitt had declared his intention of moving, could not fail to weaken
and embarrass in a considerable degree the new administration,
and as the propriety of these restrictions was contended for upon
a presumption of the speedy recovery of the king, the contending
parties caught with great eagerness at some little difference of
opinion relative to that point, which prevailed amongst the me
dical gentlemen who attended him. In the course of the debate,
Mr. Pitt treated the opinion of Dr. Warren, who was less sanguine
in his expectations of an immediate recovery than others, as if it
had been dictated by a partiality to the rising administration ; and
he insinuated, that from the warmth with which that opinion was
taken up and defended on the other side, it looked as if those
gentlemen spoke from their wishes.
Mr. Fox observed, that although the question for read
ing the order of the day met with his concurrence, he still
rejoiced that the honourable gentleman had made his motion,
because he thought the discussion which it had occasioned
was extremly proper, and because it was undoubtedly ne
cessary that they should have some precise knowledge of
the state of his majesty's health, previous to their delibera
tions as to what might or might not be fit restrictions to
impose on the regent. The right honourable the chancellor
of the exchequer seemed to go upon the report of the phy
sicians, when they were examined by a committee of that
House, and had said, that they all agreed that there was a
probability of his majesty's recovery, and that at no distant
period. It was not necessary to enter into any argument
as to the precision of what the right honourable gentleman
had stated, but certainly he had not precisely stated the
facts as resulting from the report of the examination of
his majesty's physicians. That they generally agreed that
it was probable his majesty might recover, was undoubtedly
true; but they did not agree as to the period when that
recovery might be expected. Dr. Warren had not only
made no such declaration, but had averred that he was per
fectly ignorant concerning it, and had expressly said, that
he could not give any satisfactory answer whatsoever upon
the subject. If, therefore, they were to go upon the order

I789-3 KING'S ILLNESS — REGENCY. 443
of the day, they were bound to shut their ears to all the re
ports out of doors, and as the right honourable gentleman
had desired them to confine themselves to the facts resulting
from the report on the table, they ought to do so strictly,
only keeping in their minds (what, of course, would not fail
to have its due impression on every gentleman) the circum
stance, that the information upon which they were desired to
proceed was information communicated four weeks ago ; and
that, therefore, they were to consider that four weeks had
elapsed without any alteration whatever in his majesty's health.
Mr. Fox added, that many contrary reports in favour of
his majesty's recovery were in circulation. He thought the
matter proper to be laid before the House ; not that he was
much in the habit of paying attention to common reports ;
in general, no man treated them with more contempt ; but he
had heard that, in another place, a person of no inconsider
able authority, his majesty's first minister, first in rank, and
by no means last in consequence, he meant the lord chancellor,
had declared that he had grounds to hope soon to hear of
his majesty's recovery. This declaration he could not but
consider as highly improper to be made, because, as on the
one hand, if any man should unfortunately have reason to en
tertain the melancholy opinion, that there was no probar
bility of his majesty's recovery at all, he should deem it highly
improbable for such a one to declare his sentiments ; so, on the
other hand, if any man thought that he had good reason to
imagine that his majesty's recovery was at hand, it appeared to
him equally improper for him to declare it ; because no man
nught to declare his sentiments either on one side of the ques
tion or the other, unless the grounds upon which those senti
ments rested, could be rendered the objects of examination and
enquiry, and call forth facts substantiated by evidence. Mr. Fox
adverted to the possible case of certain persons spreading ru
mours, merely with a view to delude the people by false hopes,
and induce gentlemen to give their votes under an ill-founded
presumption of his majesty's recovery, of which there might not
in truth exist the smallest probability. Perhaps it would be wise
to shut their ears against all rumours whatever, and to act
merely from the report of their committee. In that report
they would see, that his majesty's physicians had all of them
been asked, whether signs of convalescence appeared, which
was beyond all question a material part of the examination.
If no signs of convalescence had since appeared, and none, the
physicians had all agreed, had then appeared, a new enquiry
certainly was not necessary. If signs of convalesence had
since appeared in his majesty — as it had been industriously
rumoured they had — an inquiry was necessary ; first, with

444 king's ILLNESS — regency. [Jan. 6.
respect to the fact of those signs; and secondly, with respect
to the opinions formed of those signs by his majesty's
physicians. Mr. Pulteney having objected to the withdrawing of the ques
tion for the order of the day, '
Mr. Fox rose again and observed, that it did not excite his
surprise, when he perceived that the honourable gentleman
who spoke last objected to the withdrawing of the question
for the order of the day. That honourable gentleman had,
he believed, not been a considerable time in this country,
and therefore he must be a stranger to the various rumours
and reports in circulation. Had he known as much of those
reports as he did, the honourable gentleman would, he had
no doubt, have thought the proposed inquiry absolutely ne
cessary. With regard to the two propositions that the ho
nourable gentleman referred to, they were nearly the words
which he had himself used, on the first day that the subject
had been mentioned in that House. He had then said, that all
the physicians had declared themselves clearly and decisively
of opinion, that his majesty was incapable of meeting his par
liament, and of doing public business ; but that his recovery
was probable, though no one of them could say when his re
covery was likely to take place. Agreeing, therefore, that his
majesty might recover, and that the probability was that he
would recover soon, they must submit for a short time to a
weak government, or else do an injury to his majesty when
the time should arrive for him to resume his prerogatives. If
that were the argument, still he should contend, that it was
necessary for them to proceed to learn when his majesty's re
covery was likely to take place. Mr. Fox added, that upon
the present occasion, he must take notice of what had fallen
from the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer,
and enter his protest against what would, if persevered in, in
evitably put a stop to all freedom of debate in that House.
The right honourable gentleman had talked of warmth, and
had said it was allowable, when the political interests of parties
were at stake, but not at the present juncture ; and that there
fore his right honourable friend (Mr. Burke) had spoken from
his wishes. If such attempts to impute unbecoming motives
to members for their arguments, were made, unaccompanied
with any satisfactory answers to those arguments, it was enough
to fire any man with indignation. He made no scruple to
confess, that he felt equal warmth with his right honourable
friend — as much warmth as he had ever felt on any political
question whatsoever — not from a wish that his majesty might

1789O king's illness — regency. 445
not recover — he sincerely wished that he might; but from
what was more strong in his mind, even than the satisfaction
which must result from his knowing that his majesty was re
stored to his health — his desire that the people should be ac
quainted with the truth. In such a cause, he was not ashamed
to confes himself warm, and avow his determination to resist
an attempt to deceive an affectionate people, and to pre
vent that House from being deluded, under false pretences,
into a mode of government which would sacrifice the constitu
tion. In such a cause, he felt a warmth superior even to his
attachment to majesty ; superior to the love and loyalty which
a subject owed his sovereign; an attachment founded in a
love of truth, and a detestation of falsehood. At the manner
in which the cry had been given from the other side, when
Dr. Warren's name had been mentioned, it was impossible
for the friends of that gentleman, and for every man feeling
like a gentleman, not to glow with the utmost contempt. A
physician's eminence, above all other professions, stood upon
the most secure and certain footing. No man employed a
physician from favour : no man employed a physician because
he was of his party, nor because he had given him his in
terest at an election ; but, they trusted their health in his
hands, because he was known to possess superior skill, and
on that account alone. He would believe that the learned
personage before alluded to by him, (the lord chancellor,)
had an ill opinion of Dr. Warren, when he should hear that
the noble and learned lord trusted his health, when he should
next have the misfortune to be ill, in any other hands. These
were not encomiums, but facts. It was the confidence with
which people of the most exalted ranks trusted their healths
in Dr. Warren's hands, that made him so unusually eminent
as a physician. The cry therefore, if it meant any thing,
must have been meant to convey an insinuation against
Dr. Wan-en's integrity ; but, as the opinion of Dr. War
ren's skill never could rise, so no more could the opinion
of his integrity rise, though his integrity undoubtedly
equalled his skill. The right honourable gentleman had
been pleased to say, that he thought the probability of his
majesty's recovery was greater than before, and had added,
that he was provoked to declare that to be his private opinion.
I will not be provoked, observed Mr. Fox, to declare any
private opinion of mine to the contrary, nor will I assent to
that of the right honourable gentleman ; but if the House is
to proceed on shades of difference of opinion, as to the pro
bability of his majesty's recovery, which I think is extremely
absurd, I must still contend, that the inquiry should be as free
and open as possible.

446 king's illness — regency. [Jan. 19.
After much altercation on this subject, it was agreed that a new
committee should be appointed, and that the physicians should be
re-examined. The committee sat till the 13th, when the report
was brought up, and a motion was made by Mr. Burke, and
seconded by Mr. Windham, that it should be re-committed, on ac
count of their not having examined into the grounds of the different
opinions held by the physicians, respecting the probability of _ the
king's recovery. This motion was negatived without a division :
the report was ordered to be printed, and to be taken into con
sideration in a committee of the whole House on the state of the
nation upon the Friday following, on which day Mr. Pitt opened
his plan to the House. The first four resolutions were agreed to.
The fifth was posponed to the Monday following.

January 19.
This day Mr. Pitt moved the fifth resolution, namely, " That
the care of his majesty's royal person, during the continuance of
his majesty's illness, should be committed to the queen's most ex
cellent majesty, and that her majesty should have power to re
move from, and to nominate and appoint such persons as she shall
think proper, to' the several offices in his majesty's household, and
to dispose, order, and manage, all other matters and things re
lating to the care of his majesty's royal person, during the
time aforesaid. And that for the better enabling her majesty to
discharge this important trust, it is also expedient that a council
should be appointed to advise and assist her majesty in the several
matters aforesaid, , and with power, from time to time, as they
may see cause, to examine, upon oath, the physicians and others
touching the state of his majesty's health, and all matters rela
tive thereto." Mr Pitt was supported by Mr. Dundas and the
solicitor-general. On the other side, Lord Maitland, jMr. Grey,
and others, objected to the limitations in general, not only as tend
ing to distract and embarrass the new government, but as nuga
tory and ineffectual for the purpose which they were meant to
secure. Mr. Fox followed on the same side. After adverting to
the remarks which had been thrown out on the comparative
talents of the two sides of the House, he observed, that he
could not deny that he had a partiality for the talents of his
friends, and of those with whom he was nearly and closely
connected by a similarity of opinion and conduct ; but, par
tial as he was to their endowments and abilities, he dis
claimed that want of candour which might induce him to
withhold from gentlemen on the other side of the House, the
just praise due to great ingenuity and to eminent talents.
That ingenuity and those talents had often been display
ed on occasions in which he differed with them in opinion,
16

I789J KING'S ILLNESS  REGENCY. 447
and which occasioned him to lament that he was com
pelled to oppose abilities so distinguished ; but he must say that,
on the present occasion, they had not furnished him with rea
son for such a lamentation. A measure supported with so
little argument, he never witnessed. A debate like the pre
sent, in which so much had been said on the one side, and so
little on the other, he did not recollect; and in this esti
mate of the matter, he must include the very laboured essay
of the honourable and learned solicitor-general. That
the subject would not admit of defence was manifest from
this, that even the honourable and learned gentleman, whose
education and daily habits furnished him abundantly with the
modes and forms of reasoning, and who, on other topics, had
shewn so fruitful a mind, was, on this, unable to advance a
single clear and unsophisticated argument for the measure
which he espoused, but had, as heretofore, endeavoured to
entangle the understandings of gentlemen in the intricacies
of legal metaphysics.
For his own part, in the discussion of the important ques
tion before them, he would follow the very proper example of
an honourable and learned gentleman, whom he did not see in
his place, in avoiding the utterance of a single word in praise
of the personal virtues of the royal and exalted characters who
were immediately concerned. He would neither speak of the
virtues of the heir apparent on the one side, nor of her majesty
on the other; such eulogiums unquestionably were neither
pohtical nor perfectly manly. To say that which none could
contradict, was not manly, and to make the particular virtues
of the present royal persons an argument either for the adop
tion or rejection of a great measure, which might in its
tendency apply to other times and other persons, was surely
not political. He would rather make the honourable gentle
man his model, who, at an early stage of this business, had
said that in discussing it he would not take into his view the
plan of the regency, as it related to the Prince of Wales, but
as it might relate hereafter to a Prince of Wales : so, he would
not consider the present resolution as it affected the queen,
but as it might affect a queen ; abstracting from the question
every personal motive, and viewing it as it might apply to
other times and to other persons, and to its future' probable
consequences on the government and constitution of the king
dom. The honourable and learned gentleman had begun his
speech with a repetition of that doctrine which he had early
started, and frequently pressed in debate with the existence
and union of the personal and politic character of his ma
jesty : " That the king's political character was, in the eye
of the- law, inseparable from bis personal —that it remained

448 king's illness — regency. [Jan. 19.
entire and perfect — and would continue so to do until his natu
ral demise." This doctrine, which had been frequently urged,
he had wished in vain to hear explained ; for, how that person,
whose political faculties were confessedly suspended by a se
vere visitation of Providence, could still exist in the full en
joyment of his political character, was beyond his understand
ing to comprehend. The doctrine partook of, and seemed
indeed to be founded on, those blind and superstitious notions,
by which, as they all knew from history, human institutions
had been deified, and by which, for the purpose, perhaps,
of impressing a strong and implicit reverence in the minds of
the multitude, the fables of men were stated to be of divine
origin. That resort was had in those early times to such
means, for wise purposes, by men highly gifted, he was
not unwilling to admit ; and that, even in our own history,
there might be, and certainly were, among that description
of persons in our own country, who, at different times, bore
the epithets of tories, high churchmen, and so forth, several
who might think that, by propagating the idea of divine right,
they surrounded the person of majesty with a mysterious gran
deur and authority, which inspired in an enthusiastic people a
more prompt and steady obedience. If such was the view in
which the honourable and learned gentleman wished to consi
der this mysterious character of complete political existence,
without political capacity, he could only observe on his doc
trine, that he took up the superstitions of antiquity and rejected
the morality ; for, while he thus enveloped the sacred per
son of majesty with a pohtical veil, which, by ancient super
stition, was calculated to inspire awe, and secure obedience,
he was labouring to enfeeble the arm of government, to crip
ple it in all its great and essential parts, to expose it to hostile
attack and to contumely, to take from it the dignity which
appertained to itself, and the use for which it was designed
towards the people. Such was the tendency of this metaphy
sical doctrine — a doctrine which, though it might have found
proselytes in the dark and gloomy days of antiquity, was not
calculated for the intelligence and just understanding of the re
lative duties of sovereign and subject at the present sera.
The honourable and learned gentleman, in the pursuit of
his doctrine, had said, that his allegiance would continue
during the life of the king, whatever might be the condition of
his mind. That duty, loyalty, affection, and every rational
sentiment which could animate the breast of an Englishman,
would lead them all to venerate, to love, and to prbtect the
sacred person of his majesty, however long and however ca
lamitous his malady might prove, was a feeling so predomi
nant, that it was not necessary to take up a moment of their

I7%0 king's illness — regency. 449
time in asserting its existence. But, when the honourable and
learned gentleman stated this as the definition of allegiance, he
must enter his protest against it. He, for his part, considered
allegiance as a reciprocal duty, springing up in the heart, in
consequence of protection, and which was of equal existence.
If the honourable and learned gentleman's definition of alle
giance was true, and that it was. not dependant either on the
political capacity, or the exercise of political capacity, but on
the bare personal existence of the king, then, all which they
had heard that day from a right honourable and learned gentle
man who spoke early, (Mr. Dundas,) and from the honourable
and learned gentleman himself, that these limitations were but
temporary, and that the time would come when they must be
revised, and the full power be given to the regent, was in
consistent and impossible. For, whether the king's malady
endured one year or thirty years, it was precisely the same
in the contemplation of this doctrine, and the legislature
could not vest the full powers of the crown in any other hands,
while the person of the king remained. That such was the •
latent designs of gentlemen on the other side of the House he
did not doubt; and if the honourable and learned gentleman
would speak out, he was sensible that he would say that this
was his feeling and determination on the subject. In the pre
sent moment, they thought it prudent to conceal this inten
tion. Gentlemen, however, could not be deceived — they
would compare the argument with the assertion. The argu
ment was, that he felt and acknowledged the immutable per
fection of the king, to which he had sworn allegiance. The
assertion was, that if he did not recover within a short time,
the two Houses must alter the present arrangement, and give
to the regent full authority !
The honourable and learned gentleman had cursorily men
tioned the time when, perhaps, it might be proper to review
those restrictions. Perhaps, at the end of a twelvemonth it
might be proper. " But," says he, " if, in the present in
stance, the House were to limit the duration of them to twelve
or eighteen months, at which time they should cease of course,
and the king should recover his faculties but a fortnight after
the restraints had ceased, what evil consequences might
not ensue from that single fortnight of uncontrolled
power!" What consequences? Let us examine, said Mr.
Fox, what, even in the full stretch of the honourable and
learned gentleman's fears, they are likely to be, and what,
on the contrary, are likely to prove the consequences of
passing this regency bill for an indefinite time. In this
dreadful fortnight, the unrestrained regent might, perhaps, in
VOL. III. G G

450 king's illness — regency. [Jan. 19.
the full exercise of his authority, dismiss the lords of the bed
chamber, and change the white staves ; nay, perhaps he might
send a few gentlemen from the Commons up to the House of
Peers. What is the mighty evil of this ! At the end of one
fortnight, the king re-assumes his power — the bedchamber
lords are sent for again, and the staves are replaced ; all that
remains of the evil, are the peers, who in that space may have
been created. Compare this sum of evil with that which may
ensue from making this regency indefinite as to term. The
power of restoring to the executive government the just pre
rogatives which belong to the third estate, is taken away, and
perhaps cannot be resumed. The House of Lords having
gained the important point of preventing the regent from add
ing to their number, may not, and they are not likely to
concede it again; and thus, during all the life of the sovereign,
if he shall continue indisposed, there would exist no power of
resorting to that remedy against cabal and confederacy in the
House of Lords, which the right honourable the chancellor of
the exchequer himself had acknowledged to be a probable evil,
for which the constitution had provided so prompt a remedy.
The right honourable gentleman himself had, in the course
of four years, granted forty-two peerages, although in that
time he had not heard of any confederacy existing in that
House against his measures. There was, he said, in the
breasts of the great men of this country, such a love for the
crown, that there was no fear of any factious measures being
suffered to prevail. The peers were so distinguished for their
love of the crown, that there could be no apprehension of dan
ger from the party whom he had sent into the House of Peers;
but, if the regent were to make peers — if he, for instance,
were so lavish of honours, as to grant forty-two, in imitation
qf the right honourable gentleman, then, such a cabal and
confederacy might be formed as would endanger the safety of
the king ! Love for the crown was to be extinguished, if
favour came from the regent ! The prerogative was harmless,
while executed under the auspices of the right honourable gen
tleman : it would become dangerous, if put into the hands of
the heir apparent ! Of precisely the same spirit was their ar
gument for placing the household in the power of the queen.
In her majesty's hands it would be helpless, weak, and im
potent, if applied to any political purpose ; it could not affect
one measure of the regent's government ; but, if placed in the
hands of the regent, it would inevitably prevent his majesty's
return to power ! To all this train of paradoxes, there was
one general solution — they wished to insinuate and to pro
pagate the base and scandalous idea, however artfully for the
time they disguised their purposes, that a division might take

I7890 king's illness— regency. 451
place between the mother and the son. They affected to hold
out tolerably intelligible language that the son might combine
against the mother ; but, really, with the idea of leaving to
the herd to imagine the converse of the proposition, and that,
from history, it was as probable that the mother might com
bine against the son. He could not utter, in terms of suffi
cient indignation, his abhorrence of such a plan ; and yet he
was ready to confess, that the machination for accomplishing
the purpose was artfully laid. It was founded in an observa
tion of human feelings ; it was drawn in the speculation, that,
though in good minds there was a disposition to harmony, yet
persons put into a state of competition, however nearly con
nected by blood, by duty, by affection, were thrown into a
state of mutual jealousy, to a degree inseparable from human
being. Thus, we frequently saw that competition endan
gered the existence of the purest and the most tender feelings;
that it sometimes broke the most intimate connections ; and it
was, in truth, a maxim, that nothing characterized so truly
and forcibly the features of a noble and god-like mind, as to
continue free from jealousy in a state of competition. How
much must those persons have to answer for, who, with a per
fect and complete knowledge of this weakness of human nature,
yet wickedly and wantonly pursued a measure calculated, to
involve the empire in the calamity ! He trusted to Heaven
that the purpose would be prevented. He had confidence in
the ardent love and noble feelings which animated the bosoms
of the distinguished persons, and he hoped that no artifices,
however base ; no advice, however fulsome, would prevail in
overthrowing within their breasts the sentiments of what they
mutually owed to the country.
But, the right honourable gentleman had remarked, that
he was not to set up a factious opposition. He was one of
those persons who had been so long accustomed to opposition,
as to have a kindness for it. He was by no means unwilling
to see an opposition strong, watchful, and systematic; be
cause he thought that there might be a sincere, as well as a
systematic opposition. He conceived, however, that no op
position ought to be armed with such powers as the present
scheme was calculated to give to those who should oppose the
government of the regent ; for, as the patronage and emolu
ments of office fairly belonged to the servants of the crown,
and to those who acted with them, so he thought it an in
cumbent duty on those who opposed government, by relin
quishing all share in that patronage and those emoluments, to
give a pledge to the country for the sincerity of their opposi
tion. It had been argued by an honourable gentleman, that,
without the houehold, the regent's government would have
G g 2

452 king's illness— regency. [Jan. 19.
power enough ; that it would have power enough for good
purposes, and it ought not to have more. If it should be
found that the regent had power enough, then, surely it be
hoved the House to resolve, either on the recovery of the pre
sent king, or on the accession of his successor, to take from
the crown all those prerogatives which were withheld from
the regent. It should be a principle in all good government
to give no power which was not actually necessary to its pur
pose, or, in other words, necessary to the power of doing
good. The wisdom of our ancestors had vested in the hands
of the king all the prerogatives of the crown for the purpose
of good government ; and now, we were to establish a go
vernment, without the powers which the constitution declared
to be essential to its well being !
Mr. Fox declared, that in going into office he expected to
have the power, patronage, and emoluments of office; the
emoluments were of little value, as the right honourable gen
tleman well knew, since every minister was obliged to incur
expences fully proportionate. But, if he intended to be ho
nestly useful, he must have the fair means of carrying those
intentions into execution. If he had to employ confidential
persons in national and necessary services, he must enjoy the
means of rewarding them. If this was to be called ambitious, he
pleaded guilty to the charge. It was, however, an ambition
constitutional, and, in his mind, necessary. He would, for a
moment, put the case to gentlemen on the other side, on their
grounds of estimation of the minister. He had, in the four
years of his administration, proceeded to many acts wisely
and beneficially for the country. Grant the fact : had he
not done them, possessing and employing all the powers of
the crown, in the way of place, emoluments, and patro
nage? It was contended, that the bedchamber lords were
so well and so truly disposed to act with government, that
they never would resist a good measure. This was one of
the inexplicable assertions which he did not know how to
meet. Was it meant to say that this corps of officers had
such a fund of sagacity to discover, together with such a
fund of steadiness to pursue, what was right, that they acted
of themselves, without leader or direction ? He was ready to
confess them to be good troops, well disciplined, steady, and
obedient, ready to be brought into the field of battle, and
there firm and active while engaged ; but they were all this,
only while under the command of the crown. How did he
know what they might do, if put under another leader ? This
prstorian band might turn back, and fly from the field. He
wished that some generous friend of the minister would rise
up, and honestly confess what ground he acted upon in this

*789-j king's illness — regency. 453.
business : — that he distrusted the one side of the House, and
that he voted for these restrictions, because he had an implicit
confidence in the other : — that the crooked politics of the
Duke of Portland, the interested perfidy of Earl Fitzwilliam,
the corrupt ambition of Lord John Cavendish, determined
him against entrusting power in their hands, and that on the
other side he could not discover even faint portraits of these
Catalines and Cetheguses. It was his earnest wish that gen
tlemen, if they distrusted, would act constitutionally. If
they preferred A. to B. the power of that House was yet, he
trusted, sufficient to turn them out of office ; and especially,
if the persons in office were of that description who bowed to
the authority of parliament. Instead of this manly and con
stitutional mode, the right honourable gentleman opposed
men by crippling government. To prevent that party from
enjoying office, whom he thought ineligible, he attacked and
violated the constitution; he destroyed the balance of the
three estates, and endangered, for an unlimited time, the
existence of every thing essential in the government to the
well being of the country. It was rather singular, also, that
they did not perceive the positive weakness of their principal
argument in another way. They objected to trust the house
hold in the power of the prince, because he might change the
king's servants, and yet they put it into the power'of the queen,
who might remove them at pleasure. Why might they not be
changed by her majesty and her council of advice, as well as
by the regent ? The danger was precisely equal. It had been
contended that, in the India bill, they had attempted to esta
blish a fourth estate, unlike the present, that would have made
them for ever independent of the crown and of parliament.
The precise fact was, that the India bill, whether a good
bill or not, was limited in its duration, and the fourth estate,
as it was called, could not be revived, without an especial
act of parhament. Now, the fourth estate to be erected by
this resolution, was to be established for ever; it had no
period. " But, the patronage given to the fourth estate by
the India bill," say they, " was given to subjects, instead of
being given to the crown." It was given to subjects, un
doubtedly ; but it was taken from one body of subjects and
given to another. It never did belong to the crown. Now,
this fourth estate was taken from the crotvn, in which the
constitution had originally placed it, and given to a subject.
He was astonished that the honourable gentleman (Mr. Pul
teney) who had taken so active a part in exploring what he
thought the hazards of the India bill, should shut his eyes on
the present so much more enormous power of patronage
G g 3

454 king's illness — regency. [Jan. 19.
seized on from the crown, and put into distinct hands from
the executive power.
With respect to the grounds of a speedy recovery, which
the right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer held
out, and which fact formed the only topic of his argument,
he did not mean to say one syllable. If it was true, as it
certainly was, that it must prove a serious thing to change
the royal person, it was a more serious thing to change the
nature of the royal office. It might be for a short time ; it
might be for a long time ; it was certainly for an indefinite
time that they were to change the constitution of the country,
and all this was to be done en the report of the physicians.
Physicians had acknowledged that the science of physic was
the most uncertain of all the arts ; and that of all the branches
of physic, this particular malady was the most uncertain. So
then, they were, for an unlimited time, to change the nature
of the third estate, to impoverish and weaken the executive
arm, to create a new estate in the country ; and all this, on
the report of the most uncertain case which came within the
view of the most uncertain of all sciences. He had observed,
that to change the nature of the kingly office, was a more
serious thing than to change the person of the king. The
constitution provided only for the crown. The' king, ac
cording to the constitution, was nothing; the king might
die, the king might be imbecile; the constitution, careful
only of the crown, was careless as to the precise ability of
the king. It made the kingly office hereditary, from the
consideration that the crown being permanently and con
tinually the same, full and authoritative, was less solicitous as
to the person who was to wear the crown, since it was guarded,
guided, and restrained, by positive laws. To entrench, there
fore, on the crown, was a truly serious point. Its prerogatives
were to be put into the custody of the two Houses of parlia
ment, and they were proceeding to impair the crown, for
the sake of the king. If it should be said that the two Houses
of parliament would, no doubt, restore the prerogatives now
taken away, he would ask them how they could answer for
their successors ? An honourable baronet had signified a
desire to know what the consequence would be of the demise
of the queen? If the prince regent should die, the course was
easy and simple. The next prince in succession, the Duke of
York, if alive, or Prince William, would be appointed to the
regency ; but if the queen should die, in whose hands would
they place the custody of the king ? In those of the Duke of
York ? Would they strive to divide the royal brothers ? A
task, which, he believed, they would find as difficult as to
remove the planets from their spheres. In whose hands would
13

'7890 » king's illness — regency. 455
it be placed, joining therewith the patronage now to be en
trusted with the queen ?
It was said, " Why object to this establishment, since an
establishment for the Prince of Wales was never objected to,
on the score of its giving an influence?" This was a most
extraordinary argument. Because three or four places were
not dangerous, it was asked, Why be alarmed at four hundred ?
Because 50,000/. did not appear dangerous in the hands of
the heir apparent, who had a great house to maintain, were
300,000/. to be divided ? Besides, the prince's establishment,
the small revenue from Cornwall excepted, was in the gift,
and annually depended on the pleasure of the king. Several
lords in this country, and even some commoners, enjoyed a
more ample revenue than the Prince of Wales, because they
had occasion for a less burdensome establishment. It was
idle and ridiculous, therefore, to compare the two points. The
argument of the splendour of the king, was still less to be re
garded. What ! did they mean to say, that during the un
happy malady of the king, they wished to exhibit the royal
person with all the equipage and regalia of state, which were
only applicable to public situations ! It was insulting to the
wounded feelings of the royal family, to imagine so indelicate
and so gross a circumstance. Either from generosity, or in
the spirit of reciprocity, an honourable gentleman (Mr. Pul
teney) had contended that there was nothing in the present
state of Europe which could give just reason for a strong go
vernment. This evidently alluded to the present deranged
condition of France, of which the honourable member had
lately been a spectator, and if the honourable gentleman meant
that the low circumstances of France ought to induce us not
to assail her when helpless, the argument had the generosity
natural to the honourable member : but perhaps it was founded
in that principle of reciprocity, which had lately prevailed,
with respect to that rival power ; that because she was lowered
and embarrassed, we must lower ourselves to her standard;
that this was to be done on motives of reciprocal affection, for
the purpose of preserving the good understanding which now
subsisted between us undiminished. There was a fellowship in
misery, that endeared its objects to each other. Misery made
us acquainted with strange companions ; it levelled the supe
riority of pride ; it softened the asperities of opposition. De
graded and sunk to the condition in which France perhaps
was at this moment, it would be thought an eligible mode of
preserving her friendship, and prevent giving alarm to the rest
of Europe. Unless for these reasons, he saw nothing in the pre
sent state of Europe to induce us to suffer, much less volun
tarily to embrace a weak government.
g • 4

456 KING'S ILLNESg — REGENCY. [Jan. 19.
The right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer had
not explained to the committee two very essential points. If
this household was to be established in the custody of the
queen, when was the provision which he spoke of as being
necessary for the state of the regent to be made, and what was
to be the extent of it ? This ought to have been mentioned.
In his mind, the civil list would prove amply sufficient, both
for the provision to the queen, in her care of the king's per
son, and also for the state of the regent, if this ridiculous and
absurd scheme was not pursued. Upon this occasion, said
Mr. Fox, it might perhaps be a matter of delicacy to state the
opinion of his royal highness, but he knew the sentiments of
his royal highness to be, that it would be highly irksome to
him in the present melancholy and calamitous situation of the
country, to add any new burdens, for the purpose of increasing
the state and dignity of his own situation. He added, that
perhaps it was not perfectly regular for him to state this ; but
as he knew it to be the sentiment of his royal highness, and
did not consider the observation as improper, he had men
tioned it to the committee. The other point upon which he
wished for information, was the ideas of the right honourable
gentleman, whether these restrictions were to have a limited
duration, and what he should think the proper time for their
expiration. In conclusion, Mr. Fox expressed his certainty,
that when the pnblic came to view the whole of this scheme,
and to compare it with that fourth estate, of which they had
heard so much, they would see that the present one contained
all the mischiefs that were only attributed to the other, and
that it was in truth calculated to confer a favour inconsistent
with the good government of the country.
The resolutions being carried, were reported to the House,
agreed to, and ordered to be delivered to the Lords at a confer
ence. Having passed both Houses, the resolutions were, on the
30th of January, presented to the prince and queen by a commit
tee of peers and commoners. To the joint address of the two
Houses his royal highness returned this answer : " My lords and
gentlemen ; I thank you for communicating to me the resolutions
agreed to by the two Houses ; and I request you to assure them in
my name, that my duty to the king my father,- and my anxious
concern for the safety and interests of the people, which must
be endangered by a longer suspension of the exercise of the
royal authority, together with my respect for the united desires of
the two Houses, outweigh in my mind every other consideration,
and will determine me to undertake the weighty and important
trust proposed to me, in conformity to the resolutions now com
municated to me. I am sensible of the difficulties that must at
tend the execution of this trust, in the peculiar circumstances in
which it is committed to my charge, of which, as I am acquainted

T7S9-] king's illness — regency. 457
with no former example, my hopes of a successful administration
cannot be founded on any past experience. But confiding that the
limitations on the exercise of the royal authority deemed neces
sary for the present, have been approved by the two Houses
only as a temporary measure, founded on the loyal hope, in which
I ardently participate, that his majesty's disorder may not be of
long duration, and trusting in the meanwhile that I shall receive- a
zealous and united support in the two Houses and in the nation,
proportioned to the difficulty attending the discharge of my trust
in this interval, I will entertain the pleasing hope, that my faithful
endeavours to preserve the interests of the king, his crown and
people, may be successful." — Her majesty's answer was to the fol
lowing effect : " My lords and gentlemen ; my duty and gratitude
to the king, and the sense I must ever entertain of my great obliga
tions to this country, will certainly engage my most earnest atten
tion to the anxious and momentous trust intended to be reposed in
me by parliament. It will be a great consolation to me to receive
the aid of a council, of which I shall stand so much in need in the
discharge of a duty wherein the happiness of my future life is indeed
deeply interested, but which* a~ higher object, the happiness of a
great, loyal, and affectionate people, renders still more important."
The answers being communicated to the Houses, it was moved in
the House of Lords, that letters patent should be issued under the
great seal, empowering certain commissioners to open the parlia
ment. The names of the proposed commissioners were read, and
at their head were the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York, the
Dukes of Gloucester and Cumberland. The Duke of York rising,
said he had not been informed that it was intended to insert his
name in the commission ; he, therefore, had not been able to take
steps to prevent the nomination ; not wishing to stand upon record,
and to be handed to posterity as approving such a measure, he
could not sanction the proceedings with his name : he deemed
the proposition, as well as every other that had been embraced
respecting the same object, to be unconstitutional and illegal : he
desired, therefore, to have no concern with any part of the busi
ness ; and requested that his name, and the name of his brother
the Prince of Wales, might be left out of the commission : the
Duke of Cumberland desired his own name and the Duke of
Gloucester's might also be omitted : accordingly the princes were
left out of the nomination. The resolution being carried, was on
the 2nd of February adopted by the Commons ; the following day
the Houses assembled as a regular parliament, and, the lord chan
cellor being indisposed, Earl Bathurst, president of the council,
opened the causes of the present meeting, and the objects for
which they were to provide. On the 6th of February Mr. Pitt in
troduced his regency bill, founded on the principles already
investigated, and the resolutions already voted. Its various clauses
and provisions having undergone in detail much opposition, it was
passed on the 12 th of February, carried to the House of Lords,
and read a second time without opposition.
In order to relieve the public anxiety, her majesty Sent daily to
St. James's accounts of the state of the king's health, as ascertained by

458 address on the king's recovery. [March io.
theopinion of his physicians. For some days these reports announced
that his majesty's illness had begun to take a very favourable turn.
On the 19th of February, the lord chancellor, as soon as the peers
assembled in order to go into a committee on the regency bill,
informed them, that the improvement of the king's health, al
ready stated in the official reports of the physicians, was
still progressive, an intelligence which certainly must prove
pleasing to every man in the kingdom; in this situation of things
he conceived they could not possibly proceed upon the bill be
fore them, and therefore moved, thattheir lordships do immediately
adjourn to the 24th. On the day appointed, the chancellor in
formed the House, that he had that morning attended his majesty
by his express command, and had found him perfectly recovered :
he therefore moved a farther adjournment, which being again
repeated, his lordship on the 5th of March informed the peers,
that his majesty would signify his farther pleasure to -both Houses
on Tuesday the ioth of March. Thus ended the necessity and
project of a regency.

Address on the King's Recovery.
March 10.
THIS day theCommons, with their Speaker, being at the bar of
the House of Lords, the lord chancellor informed them, that
his majesty, not thinking fit to be then present in his royal person,
had caused a commission to be issued, authorizing the commis
sioners, who had been appointed by former letters patent to hold
that parliament, to open and declare certain farther causes for
holding the same. The commission being read, the chancellor ad
dressed the two Houses in the name of the commissioners as follows :
" My lords and gentlemen ; in obedience to his majesty's
commands, and by virtue of both commissions already mentioned
to you, one of which has now been read, we proceed to lay before
you such further matters as his majesty has judged proper to be now
communicated to his parliament. — His majesty being, by the bles
sing of Providence, happily recovered from the severe indisposition
with which he has been afflicted, and being enabled to attend to
the public affairs of his kingdoms, has commanded us to convey to
you his warmest acknowledgements for the additional proofs which
you have given of your affectionate attachment to his person, and
of your zealous concern for the honour and interests of his crown,
and the security and good government of his dominions  The in
terruption which has necessarily been occasioned to the public bu-
sines will, his majesty doubts not, afford you an additional incite
ment to apply yourselves, with as httle delay as possible, to the
different objects of national concern which require your atten-

1789.] address on the king's recovery. 459
tion. — His majesty has likewise ordered us to acquaint you that,
since the close of the last session, he has concluded a treaty of de
fensive alliance with his good brother the King of Prussia, copies
of which will be laid before you ; that his majesty's endeavours
were employed during the last summer, in .conjunction with his
allies, in order to prevent as much as possible, the extension of hos
tilities in the North, and to manifest his desire of effecting a gene
ral pacification ; that no opportunity will be neglected on his part
to promote this salutary object ; and that he has, in the mean time,
the satisfaction of receiving from all foreign courts continued assu
rances of their friendly dispositions to this country.
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons ; we are commanded by
his majesty to acquaint you, that the estimates for the current year
will forthwith be laid before you ; and that he is persuaded of your
readiness to make the necessary provisions for the several branches
of the public service.
" My lords and gentlemen ; we have it particularly in charge
from his majesty to assure you, that you cannot so effectually meet
the most earnest wish of his majesty's heart, as by persevering in
your uniform exertions for the public welfare, and by improving
every occasion to promote the prosperity of his faithful people,
from whom his majesty has received such repeated and affecting
marks of invariable zeal, loyalty, and attachment, and whose hap
piness he must ever consider as inseparable from his own."
An Address of congratulation and thanks having been moved
by Earl Gower, and seconded by Mr. Yorke,
Mr. Fox observed, that he was far, very far, indeed, from
rising for the purpose of preventing the unanimous vote of
the House, or of disturbing in any degree whatever the
harmony which all must eagerly desire to see prevail on the
present joyful occasion. He declared, that he trusted and
hoped that the address would pass nemine contradicente ,- but,
he could not avoid remarking that the honourable gentle
man who spoke last, seemed to have taken considerable pains
to prevent, if it were possible, that unanimity and harmony so
generally to be desired on such an occasion as the present,
and to create a difference of opinion. For himself he saw
nothing in his majesty's speech which seemed liable to ob
jection ; nor was there any part of the address open to an
exception. He had listened to the noble lord who moved
the address with great attention, and he had never listened to
a mover of an address with more satisfaction. The noble lord
had not only moved it with great ability, but, if he would
allow him to say so, in a manner which did more honour to
his heart than his head. The noble lord had moved it hke a
man of understanding, because he had expressed the feelings
of a man, and the feelings of a loyal and faithful subject to
his sovereign : he had moved the address with as much ele
gance as he had ever witnessed, and, in his mind, with as

4<5o ADDRESS ON THE KING'S RECOVERY. [March IO".
much judgment. The noble lord had judiciously passed over
the other topics stated in the speech, because, undoubtedly,
every man must feel that his majesty's recovery was so far the
paramount topic, that all others, weighty and important as
they were in themselves, appeared light and trivial in com
parison with it. The honourable gentleman, on the other
hand, who had seconded the address, had thought proper to
mingle with the congratulations of that House, on the happy
recovery of the sovereign, praise and panegyric on the per
sonal conduct of the king's minister. On such a day as that,
at least, Mr. Fox said, he conceived that the right ho
nourable the chancellor of the exchequer might have been
kept in the back ground by his friends, in order to let his
majesty stand forward as the only prominent figure in the pic
ture. — With regard to the expressions of applause bestowed
on parliament by his majesty, he had no objection to them,
because he thought it the sort of language which it was always
to be wished his majesty should hold to his parhament ; but he
had never understood that it was either fit or constitutional
to consider such applause, as applying to the conduct of his
majesty's ministers, in the particular manner in which the ho
nourable gentleman who seconded the address, had chosen to
consider it. The right honourable the chancellor of the ex
chequer, he should suppose, did not himself so understand it ;
and the reason why the right honourable gentleman, he pre
sumed, did not so understand it, was, because looking upon
the present speech from his majesty as he did upon all other
speeches from the throne, as the speech of the minister,
the right honourable gentleman, he conceived, would not
say that a minister ought not to take advantage of such
a vehicle, and by such means praise his own measures a
second or a third time. He did not, besides, believe his
majesty meant to signify any such opinion of the late pro
ceedings, as the honourable gentleman had intimated, and
he would fairly tell the honourable gentleman why he did
not think it possible for his majesty to have given any such
opinion. It fell to his lot to know from authority, that those
who could alone inform his majesty of the reasons and grounds
of the different opinions and doctrines which had been formed
and maintained, had not an opportunity of giving him any
such information, and he knew his majesty's sense of duty
and regard to justice too well, to believe, that without any
explanation on the subject, his majesty would give a decided
opinion. Mr. Fox added, that notwithstanding the pains
which the honourable gentleman had obviously taken to effect
such a purpose, the honourable gentleman should not pre
vent him from voting for the address ; and he would farther

1789*] REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. 461
tell the honourable gentleman, that it was not only unparlia
mentary and unconstitutional, but disloyal in the highest
degree to his majesty, to assert, that those who differed in
-opinion from his ministers and opposed their measures, might
not be as sincerely attached to the sovereign as any other
description of his subjects.
The address was agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Shop Tax.
April 2.
THIS day Mr. Fox renewed his annual motion for the repeal
of the shop tax. The order of the day being read,
Mr. Fox rose and observed, that the subject of the shop
tax had been so often discussed, it had engaged so much of
the public attention, so much had been said upon it in that
House, and so much more had been said upon it without
doors, that he would not trouble the House either with a
repetition of his former arguments, or with going into any
length of reasoning concerning its unjustifiable nature. With
regard to the objections against the shop tax, urged by him
self and those who agreed with him upon the subject, it had
ever been said to be partial and oppressive, because it fell
upon the shopkeeper, and not upon the consumer. Those
who endeavoured to prove that the tax ought to continue,
had always maintained that it fell upon the consumer, and
not upon the shopkeeper; and upon that single question
of fact, the argument had remained at issue between them.
Mr. Fox proceeded to adduce reasons, which, in his mind,
clearly proved that it fell upon the shopkeepers, and the
shopkeepers only. The shopkeepers of the city in which
they then were, and of the city of London, were most liable
to the oppression of this tax, and, consequently, best enabled
to judge whether they felt it to be oppressive or not ; and
they had unanimously, steadily, and unremittingly opposed
the tax, on the ground that it was oppressive to an intoler
able degree. The shopkeepers of the two cities and the
borough of Southwark had applied to that House, regularly,
every year since the tax had become a tax, stating that it
was oppressive, and praying relief. Of whom was that ma
jority composed, who had supported the continuance of the

462 MR. Fox's motion [April 2.
shop tax? Certainly, not chiefly of persons representing
cities and towns in which there were many shopkeepers;
whereas, those who had done him the honour to unite in
opposing the tax, and unremittingly to complain of its in
justice, were persons representing places wherein it was no
torious that there were a great number of shops. It was,
therefore, fair to conclude, that the truth of the argument
was, that the tax did fall upon the shopkeeper, and not upon
the consumer ; since, as the tax had now lasted for a consi
derable time, the shopkeeper would have felt that it did fall
upon the consumer, and not upon himself, if the fact were
so ; and, in that case, he would not have continued steadily
to complain of it as a personal grievance. In this point of
view, therefore, the argument of those who had hitherto
supported the tax, fell to the ground.
Mr. Fox said, that he would only, in addition to this,
make one or two observations, to shew that, if unfortunately
a total repeal of the tax should be denied, which, he trusted,
would not be the case, some essential alterations ought to
be made in it. And first, with respect to the inconvenience
with which the tax was attended, in consequence of the im
possibility to lay it fairly and equally on all shopkeepers.
This was, at present, so far from being the case, that nothing
could be more unfair, nothing more unequal, than the mode
of assessment, which had been adopted. That was deemed
a shop in one part of the city and in one parish, which was
not deemed a shop in another district and in another parish.
He knew instances, where a whole house had been assessed,
because there was in it one room — not where goods, wares,
or merchandize were retailed, but in which there worked a
person whose occupation and employ it was to work for retail
shops. This proved the manifest inequality and injustice of
the mode of assessment which had obtained; and what was
Still stronger, he believed that those persons, whose opinions
it was natural- to imagine, upon such an occasion, would be
consulted, he meant the crown lawyers, had not yet made
up their minds upon the act itself, so as to decide with any
thing like a fixed opinion, what description of houses were
liable to be assessed to the tax, and what were not. Another
proof of the partiality and injustice "of the tax, was already
in the possession of that House ; because, when they con
sidered that three years had elapsed since it became a tax,
and looked simply at the produce of different places, they
would see the enormous weight of the tax which had fallen
upon the city of Westminster. The city of Westminster,
and he spoke of the city of Westminster purely, without
taking into the reckoning the purlieus of Marybone, Blooms-

I789O FOR THE REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. 4S3
bury, and other adjacent districts, paid more than the whole
city of London ; and London and Westminster together,
paid more than three-fourths of the whole produce of the
tax. Another objection to the tax was, that, after three
years continuance, it did not appear to be a growing tax ;
on the contrary, it was evident, from the papers before the
House, that the produce of the tax in Westminster alone,
as he had just described it, for the last year, fell four thou
sand pounds short of the produce of the tax in Westminster
for the preceding year. Now, though four thousand pounds
was no great sum, yet, when it was considered that the tax
was originally taken for no more than forty thousand pounds,
it was by no means to be regarded as an inconsiderable
defalcation. It had been said, that clamour against a tax ought not to
induce a chancellor of the exchequer to give way. Undoubt
edly, Mr. Fox admitted that it ought not, and if the shop tax
had been resisted and opposed on the ground of mere cla
mour, he should have thought that the giving it up was a
dangerous example; but, in this case, it was evident that
clamour had not been the ground of opposition, nor had any
procedure like party spirit or political prejudice, in favour
of one set of men rather than another, been the motive of
opposing the tax : so far from it, wherever the sense of the
people could be taken upon the shop tax, as at an election,
and on other public occasions, it had not been the ground
of clamour of one political party, but a general contention
which should prove itself the greatest enemy to the shop tax.
Many taxes had passed that House, which had been opposed,
and which had raised much clamour at first; but it had hap
pened that, in proportion as the effects of such taxes had been
ascertained by experience, the clamour had subsided, and the
tax had been regularly paid without murmuring. The case
with the tax in question was different; since, after three
years, the clamour had strengthened and increased, and the
opposition had been uniformly the same. There could be
but two ways of accounting for this; the opposition and
complaint against the shop tax must either come upon the
ground of reason and of truth, and instead of a tax upon the
public in general, in their capacity of consumers, the tax
was a capricious penalty, if he might so phrase it, on a cer
tain number of persons, for exercising a lawful and honest
trade ; or, if it were not that, it was. the interest of the shop
keepers to oppose it. Whether, therefore, the clamour was
attributed to a principle of reason and truth, or to the in
terest of individuals, it was equally fit that it should be re
pealed, because the argument that the tax alighted upon the

464 REPEAL OF THE SHOP TAX. [April 2.
consumer, fell to the ground in both cases. He should
therefore beg leave to move, " That the acts of the 25th and
26th of his present majesty, imposing a tax upon retail shops,
might be read." The same being read accordingly, Mr. Fox
moved, " That leave be given to bring in a bill to repeal
the said acts."
Mr. Pitt 'said, that though he considered it to be his duty, ge
nerally, to resist any attempt to decrease the revenue by the re
peal of taxes, objected to by persons who were most likely to be
affected by them, and though, in the present case, as far as argu
ment went, he had heard nothing to induce him to change his own
sentiments, yet, when he found those sentiments contradicted by
the positive assertions of those who had tried the effect of the tax
during the space of three years, and observed the general con
currence of all of that description, he thought it no longer proper
to oppose to their feelings and experience any opinions of his own
mind founded on theory, and therefore he should not resist the
motion. The motion was accordingly agreed to, and the bill for
the repeal of the shop-tax, being brought in by Mr. Fox, the
preamble, in which that tax was stated to have been found partial
and oppressive, and contrary to just principles of taxation, was
objected to by Mr. Pitt, who moved that those words should be
left out, and the following inserted in their room, " Whereas it is
expedient to repeal."
Mr. Fox remarked, that it gave him much concern to dis
cover that words which he had inserted in the preamble of
the bill, for the express purpose of maintaining the dignity
of parliament, and supporting the regularity and consistency
of their proceedings, should be considered as an invective.
He rather thought that the words objected to were the very
words of the right honourable gentleman himself, and that
he had said, that whatever might be his opinion in theory,
the shopkeepers having found by experience that the tax on
retail shops was partial and oppressive, and contrary to the
true principles of taxation, he was wilhng to consent to its
repeal. That the tax was inexpedient, was undoubtedly
true ; but it was not for that reason that it was deemed right
to repeal it ; to make that the plea for its repeal, was to con
fess that they removed the tax on the mere ground of clamour,
without being satisfied of its partiality, oppression, and injus
tice ; whereas the contrary was notoriously the fact. Mr. Fox
concluded with saying, that although he should certainly give
his negative to the amendment, he would not press for a di
vision of the House.
The amendment was agreed to, and the hill passed the Com
mons without further opposition.

1789.] mr. hastings's petition, complaining, &c. 465

Mr. Hastings's Petition, complaining of Words
spoken by Mr. Burke in Westminster-Hall.
April 27.
SOON after the opening of the session, on the 3d of February,
Mr. Hastings presented a petition to the House of Lords, in
which, after recapitulating the proceedings which had already
been had from the commencement of the impeachment, he stated
the great hardships to which its extraordinary duration had and
was likely still farther to subject him. Amongst these, he men
tioned the decease of several of his judges, the detention of wit
nesses necessary for his defence, the probability of his being de
prived of many of them by various accidents, his health impaired,
and his fortune wasted. He reminded them, that two articles only,
out of twenty, had as yet been gone through by his accusers, that
his expenses had already exceeded 30,0001. ; and consequently, that
should his life be continued to the close of the trial, he might find
himself destitute of the means of defence, and even of subsistence,
and run the dreadful chance of having his character transmitted
on their records blasted with unrefuted criminations. He there
fore prayed that they would enable him to make his innocence,
and he hoped his deserts, apparent, by proceeding without delay
upon his trial. The intervention of the circuits of the judges ren
dered it impossible for the lords to proceed upon the trial before
the 20th day of April, when the court was resumed, and sat, dur
ing the remainder of the session, seventeen days. The charge
brought before them, and opened by Mr. Burke, was that relative
to the corrupt receipt of money. In the course of his speech,
Mr. Burke had occasion to remark upon the conduct of Mr. Has
tings towards one of his accusers in India, called Nundcomar ;
and after relating other acts of injustice and cruelty, he added
that " he had murdered that man by, the hands of Sir Elijah
Impey." A few days after the charge had been thus opened,
Major Scott presented a petition from Mr. Hastings to the House
of Commons, in which he stated that Mr. Burke, in supporting the
charges exhibited against him at the bar of the House of Lords,
had accused him of sundry heinous crimes hot laid in the articles
of impeachment. He instanced the charge of having been con
cerned in a plot for assassinating the Shahzada, and in another
plot for putting to death the son of Jaffier Ally Cawn ; of being
accessory to certain horrible cruelties alleged to have been com
mitted by one Debi Sing ; and lastly, of having been guilty of
the murder of Nundcomar. He therefore prayed the House
either to bring forward and prosecute those charges in specific
articles, and thereby give him an opportunity of vindicating his
innocence, or to grant him such other redress as to their justice
and wisdom might seem fit. A motion being made, that the pe
tition should be brought up,
vol. m. H H

466 mr. Hastings's petition, complaining of [April 27.
Mr. Fox said, that it was not his design either to resist
the motion of the honourable member for bringing up the
petition, or to enter into an extensive field, for the purpose
of scrupulously investigating its contents. The predicament
in which he stood, rendered it necessary that he should be
cautious of incurring the charge of partiality. He wished,
therefore, the propriety of the measure to be considered by
those who were not managers of the prosecution, and who,
upon that account, might be regarded as less interested in its
contents and in its object, and consequently more impartial.
He rose to state the bad tendency of it, not to that House
in the present instance merely, but to future prosecutions of
that House for ever and ever.
Therewere three distinct points to be considered in respect to
the present petition : first, the subject-matter of the complaint ;
secondly, who itwas that the complaint wasmadeto; and thirdly,
who the person was that made the complaint. The subject-
matter of the complaint consisted of certain words and expres
sions said to have been used, and directly charged with having
been falsely used by members of that House, at the bar of the
House of Lords. He could not imagine that it would be ad
mitted that the House attended in Westminster-hall, not for the
purpose of appearing as prosecutors, countenancing and sup
porting the managers employed by their authority to urge the
charges and adduce proof in 'support of them against the
person impeached, not for that of taking care that justice was
done them, but for the purpose of cavilling as an adverse party
at the conduct of their own managers. With regard to the
second point, to whom was the complaint made ? It came not
where all complaints of unjust treatment of a defendant ought
to be made, to the tribunal that tried him, to the judges, and
to the court that was to decide, and which alone was com
petent to relieve the party in a case of real injustice, but it
came to the accusers, to the prosecutors themselves, who had
no power to afford redress, if necessary, and whose duty it
was to pursue the culprit, and prosecute him to punishment.
As to the third point, who was it that preferred the complaint?
Mr. Fox said, he should have been mortified, indeed, if his
conduct, and that of any other of the managers, had been
found fault with by the right honourable gentleman over
against him, or those who had professed themselves to be
warm friends to the prosecution. But, who was here the
complainant ? Not a member of the House of Commons, not
a member of the House of Lords, no person of either descrip
tion, but the culprit himself, who came forward to object to
the mode of proceeding against him. Should such a com
plaint be listened to ? And should the party accused be suffered

I789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 467
to arraign the conduct of his accusers, addressing his charge
to them ? It would prove a deviation from every known and
established rule ; it would introduce a new system of proceed
ing ; because it was altogether unprecedented for those who
were the accusers, to hear the culprit in the manner of an ac
cuser of themselves, complaining of the mode of prosecution
which they had thought proper to adopt, as likely to answer
the ends of justice in the most effectual manner.
Mr. Fox proceeded to call in question the motive and the
mode in which the honourable gentleman who had intro
duced the petition had opened it to the House. He denied
that the words quoted by the honourable gentleman, as having
passed between the counsel for Mr. Hastings and himself, at
the bar of the House of Lords, were correctly stated ; and he
added, that it generally happened, that when that honourable
gentleman undertook to refer to facts, he seldom was very cor
rect. Whenever the managers had done what the counsel
for Mr. Hastings had thought improper, he asked whether
those learned gentleman had not appealed to the House of
Lords, and whether the House of Lords had not always af
forded them redress, if they were founded in their appeal ?
They had done so in various instances. With regard to
what had passed between one of the learned counsel and him
self, he had not objected to the substance of the learned coun
sel's argument, but to the manner of it. The learned counsel's
objection appeared to him to be sufficiently proper, but his
mode was that, which, as a manager of the prosecution, on be
half of the Commons of England, he had conceived that he
ought not to submit to; and the House of Lords had proved that
he was right in so thinking, by informing the counsel that they
must not speak of the managers for the House of Commons in
such a way. [Major Scott shook his head.] Mr. Fox said, the
fact was as he stated it, let the honourable gentleman shake his
head as much as he pleased. The honourable gentleman, he
observed, had pledged himself for the truth of what he had
asserted ; let him pledge himself as much as he pleased ; he by
that altered no one fact in the smallest degree. Had not the
honourable gentleman pledged himself to the House again and
again, and had not every one of the occasions proved, in the
event, how little his pledge was to be relied on ? Did he not say,
in an early part of the present business, " Produce the articles
before the House, and I'll pledge myself to prove every one
of them false, so that the House will necessarily reject them
altogether ?" Had not the event turned out the very reverse?
Had not the House voted them to be articles containing mat
ter of criminal charge, and had not the House proceeded to
an impeachment ? But, such was the honourable gentleman's
H H 2

^68 mr. Hastings's petition, complaining of [April 27.
eagerness to pledge himself, that he pledged himself for what
he had not the smallest chance of proving. Had he not that
day pledged himself to an universal negative ? Had he not
taken upon himself to prove the rash and extravagant asser
tion, that no one member of that House had read thirteen of
the charges but himself?
Mr. Fox said, he begged pardon of the House for having
suffered himself to be betrayed into so much warmth, but it
was a warmth excited by an attempt, which he trusted would
be abortive, to fix a personal insult on his right honourable
friend, and to cast an imputation on his character. By the
coarseness of the manner in which the attempt had been made,
he was persuaded that this, and this only, was the object. If
it had not been a mere pretext, why not take the usual means
of obtaining redress, if an injury were really conceived to have
been done by either his right honourable friend, himself, or
any other manager ? Did not every member of that House
know, that not only in the House of Lords, but in the most in
ferior court in the kingdom, if there was any thing wrong in
the conduct of a cause, the counsel for the prisoner might ob
ject against it, and the court, if the appeal appeared founded,
would grant immediate relief? With regard to words spoken
elsewhere, was it not acknowledged, that no notice could be
taken of words spoken in a former debate, nor even in the
same debate, because no reliance could be placed on the cor
rectness of the words complained of, unless taken down on the
moment of delivery ? Much less could notice be taken of words
spoken in another place, the identity of which it was difficult
to ascertain, and the drift of which it was impossible to fix,
because it could not be proved that the words spoken were
correctly the words which were complained of.
So much for the subject-matter of the complaint. And
who was the complainant, and to whom did he complain ? Not
to the court itself, not to the House of Lords, but to that
House ; and the complaint, as had been before stated, came
from the culprit. That House did not order the prosecution
to please the culprit. Heaven forbid that it should ! Nor did
it carry on the prosecution for the satisfaction of Mr. Hastings,
but to punish Mr. Hastings for his bribery and misdemeanors
in India, as an example to future governors-general of Bengal.
In the petition, Mr" Hastings, to carry the absurdity farther,
not only alluded to words spoken ip another place, but at an
other time; to words spoken twelve months ago, to words
heard in the House of Lords without objection, words de
livered before the criminal himself, without being noticed by
his counsel at the time. Mr. Fox maintained that Major
Scott had by no means correctly stated what had been the ex-

1789.} WORDS SPOKEN BY MR; BURKE. /ftp
pressions of his right honourable friend. His right honourable
friend had not said a word to insinuate that Mr. Hastings
was an accomplice in the murder of Meeran, eldest son of
Jaffier Ally Cawn. He would not believe that the honour
able gentleman had so ordinary a mind, as to conceive what
he had represented to the House to be the conduct of his
right honourable friend. Heaven forbid, said Mr. Fox, that
I should be in a situation to be accused ; but were this to
prove the case, it must become my interest to wish for one of
the same mind with the right honourable gentleman to be my
accuser. He added, that the honourable gentleman had ven
tured to declare that there was not one jword in the petition
which he could not prove ; and desired the House to frame
articles upon the charges to which the petition alluded. He
protested that he was at a loss to conceive how the House
could listen to such a proposition, and thought it unbecoming
a member of parliament, to make that House the instrument
of his personal resentment and malice against his right honour
able friend; for such, in his idea, was the great object of the
present attempt.
The honourable gentleman, Mr. Fox added, had said, that
his right honourable friend had misrepresented the allegations
in question, knowing it to be a misrepresentation. If it were
so, and his right honourable friend had misrepresented the
allegations wittingly, it undoubtedly would be the duty of the
H ouse to exclude his right honourable friend from any share
in conducting the prosecution ; but the fact was notoriously
otherwise. The honourable gentleman had said, that the
managers had stated themselves to be instructed to speak in
the manner they had done by the House of Commons ; un
doubtedly, they had so stated themselves, because they felt
themselves to be so instructed ; but they all knew, that when
they stated themselves to be instructed by the House, they
meant generally, and did not confine themselves to words or
expressions. With regard to the charges complained of, he
should ever state them as his right honourable friend had done,
both in public and in private, because he believed them, and
should state them by such terms as they appeared to him to
deserve. He desired the House to consider the difficulties
the managers had to encounter. They had to contend with
a most powerful criminal; a man who, for fourteen years, pos
sessed all the patronage of India, and who had been enabled
for a long period to confer so many obligations, that his con
nections at home were almost irresistible. They had likewise
to contend with all the corruption of the East, and all the
powers of the bar. They had to combat with other obstacles:
and what had they to support them? The support of then*
H h 3

470 mr. Hastings's petition, complaining of [April 27.
honour and their consciences ; and he trusted they would be
supported by the House of Commons.
He reminded the House of the effect of individual members
coming down there, from time to time, to complain of words
uttered in another place a year ago, and said, if the person
accused was to be in perpetual litigation with them before
that House, it would be almost impossible to go on with the
prosecution at all. They were, he believed, the first persons
who, being known not to possess the favour and support of
the House of Commons on political questions, had ventured
to undertake an impeachment; but was that a reason for de
serting them ? He trusted it was not. As long as the minis
ters for the time had been the managers of impeachments, it
had generally happened that the House of Commons had been
blamed for their intemperance; but, never was there upon
their journals so clear a proof of an impeachment, managed
by men who could have no view but a desire to do justice.
There never was upon their journals an instance so honour
able to that House and to the country. He trusted, there
fore, that the House of Commons would not throw difficulties
in their way, but act in an open, manly, and direct mode. If
they imagined that they had been betrayed, and ought not to
be accusers, let them confess their error, retract, and make
honourable amends to Mr. Hastings ; but do not let them
act a double character, do not let them at the same
time be the accusers and the defenders ! The honourable
gentleman had said, that there had been unwarrantable delays :
that there had been extraordinary delays was true ; but then it
was to be considered, that they had, during the present session
at least, been occasioned by a cause sufficiently extraordinary
to account for them. When the honourable gentleman stated,
that his right honourable friend had alledged what he knew
not to be true, he was convinced that the whole drift of this
business was to bring on a personal quarrel with his right ho
nourable friend ; and this, from a conception that he could
not avoid bearing a just indignation against insult; but
he begged leave to recommend to his right honourable
friend to disregard any thing done with such a view. For
his part, he declared, that neither the honourable gentleman
nor his friends should, by any thing short of a personal attack,
in the literal sense of the words, make him, or any of his
friends, he hoped, produce a personal quarrel out of a pub
lic proceeding. He should consider every complaint that
came from the honourable gentleman or the culprit as a per
sonal compliment, and when he said this, he declared he did
not speak of the honourable gentleman in respect of his cha
racter, but because he considered him as the agent of the ac-
13

I789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 471
cused. With regard to the motion, he was indifferent what
became of it, and hoped its object was defeated : he could not,
however, sit down, without conjuring gentlemen, for the ho
nour of the House, and for the sake of justice, to consider the
glaring impropriety of making the conduct of the managers,
in the discharge of a public trust, a matter of personal attack.
Mr. Pitt and some other members declared themselves for re
ceiving the petition, on the ground that Mr. Hastings, though the
object of their accusation, did not cease to be the object of their
justice, and therefore ought not to be deprived of the right be
longing to every subject, of preferring a petition and stating a
grievance to that House.
Mr. Fox rose again, and expressed his wish, that if the
petition should be agreed to be brought up, gentlemen would
decide in what manner they meant to identify the words
spoken. If the managers were to be called upon to explain
the drift of every speech they might make, it would not only
prove a new but a fatiguing task. If the managers had done
wrong, let the House employ others. He contended, that
the petition which was the subject of debate, was without
precedent in the annals of parliament. If it was to be re
ceived, it was proper that the House ought to know what
kind of evidence was meant to be adduced to prove and iden
tify the words of the managers. It was absurd to say, that
the accuser was to be satisfied with whatever words the ma
nagers themselves might chuse to avow. Every part of the
petition was new, except the spirit of it coining from Mr.
Hastings, whose constant practice, throughout his whole life,
had been to become the accuser of his accusers. Nund
comar had been the accuser of Mr. Hastings — ¦ Nundcomar
was tried on the accusation of Mr. Hastings for a forgery,
and executed. The managers, in the present instance, might
probably have shared the same fate, had Sir Elijah Impey
been their chief justice. If the managers had failed in the
execution of their duty, let them be removed and others
appointed in their room; there were many gentlemen well
qualified for the task ; and whoever undertook it would find
that he and those with whom he acted, would not play the
same game that had been played against them. They would
find them the zealous supporters of a cause, in which not
only the dignity of parhament, but the honour of the national
character, was at stake. But if, after the fatigues of their
duty in Westminster-hall, they were only to be obliged to
defend in that House every word in their speeches which
the prisoner at the bar or his agents might think extraneous
h h 4

472 mr. Hastings's petition, complaining of [April 27.
or irrelevant, he thought it would be better if the House
were to appoint a committee, consisting of the honourable
major and his friends, or Mr. Hastings himself, to revise and
correct the speeches of the managers before they were spoken,
lest any expression should be introduced which might be
hurtful to his feelings. He could not but congratulate the
honourable gentleman who had brought in the petition, on
the support which had been given to a measure which he
firmly believed was calculated to throw contempt and ridi
cule on their proceedings ; but he trusted that the House
would not desert those whom they had delegated for the
execution of a task of such an arduous and complicated na
ture. The honour and character of the House of Commons
were involved in the conduct of their representatives, who,
from the peculiar situation in which they stood, were entitled
not only to the protection but the indulgence of the House.
It was absurd to say, that in a criminal charge nothing was
to be alluded to which did not immediately relate to the
charge. Suppose, for instance, a man was indicted for mur
der, and it afterwards appeared, that to accomplish that mur
der the culprit had broke open the house. The counsel
for the prosecution mentions this fact, but is immediately
stopped by the prisoner, " You are not to mention a syllable
of the house breaking, because that of itself is a crime."
Upon the whole, Mr. Fox hoped that the House would not
be disposed to countenance a petition presented under the
circumstances which he had stated.
Mr. Burke, after declaring that on the present occasion he
should receive the decision of the House, whatever it might be,
without any other emotion than what he should feel for the honour
and reputation of the House itself, proceeded to explain the argu
ment which had led him, in the course of it, to advert to the mur-
,der of Nundcomar, and to impute it to Mr. Hastings. The power
of prosecuting and enforcing the charges against Mr. Hastings,
under an injunction not to use one extraneous word, he compared
to the giving Shylock the power of taking a pound of flesh, upon
condition of his not spilling one drop of blood; a task which neither
Jew nor Christian could perform. He added, that if the House
was dissatisfied with his conduct, they ought to remove him, and
not oblige him, in the midst of his accusation, to turn short about
at the pleasure of the culprit to defend himself, — to-day an accuser,
to-morrow a person accused. The drift of such artifice was ob
vious enough ; and if the House should give it that countenance,
and make him one day stand his trial there, and send him the next
to Westminster Hall as the prosecutor of Mr. Hastings, it could
not fail to cover them with ridicule and disgrace  Mr. Pulteney,
Mr.Marsham, and several other members, insisted strongly on
the glaring impropriety of receiving the petition, from its being totally

I789O WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 473
unprecedented, and grossly disrespectful to the House of Lords,
whose protection the complainant ought to have sought, and who
were' alone competent to interfere on the occasion. The motion
was agreed to without a division. After which, Mr. Pitt observed,
that an early day certainly ought to be appointed to take the sub
ject-matter of the petition into consideration.
Mr. Fox remarked, that upon the present occasion he felt
himself so unusually circumstanced, that he could not avoid
dissenting from the right honourable gentleman over the
way in one particular; and he was completely convinced,
that what he was about to observe was right, and that the
majority of the House would agree with him that it was right.
No procedure could tend more to disgrace the character and
honour of the House, which the right honourable gentleman
had stated to be deeply interested in the prosecution, than to
weaken the hands of the managers, by doing any thing which
should reflect on their conduct; and therefore, instead of
wishing that the petition should be taken into consideration
on an early day, he thought that its consideration ought to
be delayed as long as possible. He declared, that he said
not this from any personal wish upon the subject ; it was in
that view indifferent to him whether it was entered upon that
night or the next, being fully persuaded, that whenever it
was gone into, the mention of what had been termed ex
traneous matter would be found to have been absolutely right
and indispensably necessary. He thought that no men ever
received such completely hard treatment as the managers
had experienced, and he could not help having his feeling
on the occasion, and therefore it was that he had spoken
warmly upon the subject. With regard to the prosecution,
he for one was determined to stick by it, as long as he could
do so with honour ; and when he said with honour, he did
not mean honour as a principle of pride or punctilio, but
as long as there was any prospect of rendering the prosecution
effectual. The right honourable gentleman had said, that
he hoped there was not a disposition any where to abandon
the prosecution or to impede it. He hoped so too ; but if,
upon the discussion of the petition, the managers were dis
claimed, they could not undertake to go on with the pro
secution with any prospect of success, because it would
appear that they were acting without the confidence and
support of the House of Commons. Mr. Fox enlarged upon
this argument, and the inconveniences which he feared would
result from entertaining a complaint made by a culprit against
his accusers; declaring, that he conceived all that he had
mentioned, to be the natural consequence of the prosecution
being in the hands of those who were not, generally speaking,

474 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May i.
the favourites of the House. Therefore, it would be better
to change the managers at once, than to let them remain acting
under disabilities and difficulties thrown in their way by the
Flouse itself. Its character and its honour were interested
in the prosecution, and it was of much greater consequence
that the House should preserve its consistency, and either
give its full confidence to the present managers or chuse others
in whom it would repose confidence, than give a handle to
its enemies to say that it acted in a prevaricating way, and
indirectly endeavoured to cast inefficacy upon a prosecution
which they themselves had instituted.
On the 30th of April a motion was entered on the journals, pur
porting, " That a petition having been presented by Warren Has
tings, Esq. against the managers of his impeachment, and the name
of the Right Honourable Edmund Burke being mentioned in the
said petition, and that gentleman being in his place, the House will
to-morrow take the matter of the said petition into consideration."

May 1.
On the order of the day for taking the petition of Mr. Hastings
into consideration, Mr. Montague rose and read, as part of his
speech, the following letter to him from Mr. Burke :
" My Dear Sir,
" With the consent, as you know, and the approbation of the
committee, I am resolved to persevere in the resolution I had
formed and had declared to the House, that nothing should per
suade me, upon any occasion, least of all upon the present occa
sion, to enter into a laboured, litigious, artificial, defence of my
conduct. Such a mode of defence belongs to another sort of
conduct, and to causes of a different description.
" As a faithful and ingenuous servant, I owe to the House a
plain and simple explanation of any part of my behaviour which
shall be called in question before them. I have given this expla
nation, and in doing so I have done every thing which my own
honour and my duty to the House could possibly require at my
hands. The rest belongs to the House. They, I have no doubt,
will act in a manner fit for a wise body, attentive to its reputation.
I must be supposed to know something of the duty of a prosecutor
for the public ; otherwise neither ought the House to have con
ferred that trust upon me, nor ought 1 to have accepted it. I have
not been disapproved by the first abilities in the kingdom, ap
pointed by the same authority, not only for my assistance, but for
my direction and control. You, who have honoured me with a
partial friendship, continued without interruption for twenty-four
years, would not have failed in giving me that first and most de
cisive proof of friendship, to enlighten my ignorance and to rectify
my mistakes. You have not done either ; and I must act on the

I789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 475
inference. It is no compliment to mention what is known to the
world, how well qualified you are for that office, from your deep
parliamentary knowledge and your perfect acquaintance with all
the eminent examples of the ancient and modern world.
" The House having, upon an opinion of my diligence and fide
lity, (for they could have no other motive, ) put a great trust into
my hands, ought to give me an entire credit for the veracity of
every fact I affirm or deny. But if they fail with regard to me, it
is at least in my power to be true to myself. I will not commit
myself in an unbecoming contention with the agents of a criminal,
whom it is my duty to bring to justice. I am a member of a com
mittee of secrecy, and I will not violate my trust by turning my
self into a defendant, and bringing forward, in my own exculpa
tion, the evidence which I have prepared for his conviction. I
will not let him know who the witnesses for the prosecution are,
nor what they have to depose against him. Though I have no
sort of doubt of the constancy and integrity of those witnesses,
yet because they are men, and men to whom, from my situation,
I owe protection, I ought not to expose them either to temptation
or to danger. I will not hold them out to be importuned, or me
naced, or discredited, or run down, or possibly to be ruined in
their fortunes by the power and influence of this delinquent ; ex
cept where the national service supersedes all other considerations.
If I must suffer, I will suffer alone. No man shall fall a sacrifice
to a feeble sensibility on my part, that at this time of day might
make me impatient of those libels, which, by despising through so
many years, I have at length obtained the honour of being joined
in commission with this committee, and of becoming an humble in
strument in the hands of public justice.
" The only favour I have to supplicate from the House is, that
their goodness would spare to the weakest of their members an un
necessary labour ; by letting me know as speedily as possible, whe
ther they wish to discharge me from my present office ; if they do
not, I, solemnly promise them, that, with God's assistance, I will,
as a member of their committee, pursue their business to the end :
that no momentary disfavour shall slacken my diligence in the
great cause they have undertaken ; that I will lay open, with the
force of irresistible proof, this dark scene of bribery, peculation,
and gross pecuniary corruption, which I have begun to unfold, and
in the midst of which my course has been arrested.
" This poor Indian stratagem, of turning the accuser into a
defendant, has been too often and too uniformly practised by
Deby Sing, Mr. Hastings, and Gunga Govind Sing, and other
Banyans, black and white, to have any longer the slightest effect
upon me, whom long service in Indian committees has made well
acquainted with the politics of Calcutta. If the House will suffer
me to go on, the moment is at hand when my defence, and, in
cluded in it, the defence of the House, will be made in the only
way in which my trust permits me to make it, by proving juridically
on this accusing criminal the facts and the guilt which we have
charged upon him. As to the relevancy of the facts, the commit
tee of impeachment must be the sole judge, until they are handed

476 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May i.
over to the court competent to give a final decision on their value.
In that court the agent of Mr. Hastings will soon enough be called
upon to give his own testimony with regard to the conduct of his
principal : the agent shall not escape from the necessity of deli
vering it ; nor will the principal escape from the testimony of his
agent. " I hope I have in no moment of this pursuit, (now by me con
tinued, in one shape or other, for near eight years) shewn the
smallest symptom of collusion or prevarication. The last point in
which I could wish to shew it is in this charge, concerning pecu
niary corruption. — A corruption so great and so spreading, that
the most unspotted characters will be justified in taking measures
for guarding themselves against suspicion. Neither hope, nor
fear, nor anger, nor weakness, shall move me from this trust. —
Nothing but an act of the House, formally taking away my com
mission, or totally cutting off the means of performing it. I trust
we are all of us animated by the same sentiment.
" This perseverance in us may be called obstinacy inspired by
malice. Not one of us, however, has a cause of malice. What
knowledge have we of Sir Elijah Impey, with whom, you know,
we began ; or of Mr. Hastings, whom we afterwards found in our
way ? Party views cannot be our motive. — Is it not notorious,
that if we thought it consistent with our duty, we might have, at
least, an equal share of the Indian interest, which now is almost to
a man against us.
" I am sure I reverence the House as a member of parliament
and an Englishman ought to do ; and shall submit to its decision
with due humility. I have given this apology for abandoning a
formal defence, in writing to you, though it contains in effect not
much more than I have delivered in my place. But this mode is
less liable to misrepresentation, and a trifle more permanent. It
will remain with you either for my future acquittal or condemna
tion, as I shall behave. I am, with sincere affection and respect,
my dear Sir, your faithful friend, and humble servant,
" Edmund Burke."
The first difficulty that occurred relative to the mode of proceed
ing was, whether the House should go into proof of the truth or
falsehood of the particulars which were complained of by Mr.
Hastings as being false as well as irrelevant. Major Scott having
offered to prove that the allegations were true,
Mr. Fox said he conceived that it was proper to permit the
honourable gentleman to go fully into the truth of the allega
tions of the petition, and not to confine him to a naked state
ment of them. The petition pretended, to accuse the mana
gers of urging matters against the petitioner that were not
relevant, and, at the same time, it charged them with having
knowingly spoken falsehoods. It was material, therefore, to
them, that the truth of the facts should be made out. The
honourable gentleman had stated the petition as he conceived

I789O WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE, 477
it to be ; he, on the other hand, had stated it according to
what it was. The honourable gentleman had stated it as
if the petition had been what he wished it to be, and what it
ought to have been, and he did this with the greater confi
dence, because he seemed to have the countenance and sup
port of a member of great weight in the House. He observed,
that Mr. Hastings had so managed as to convert his accusers
into defenders; and, under the word irrelevant, he had
brought against them the worst charge that could possibly be
urged — the charge of having uttered falsehoods at the bar of
the House of Lords.
The Master of the Rolls having given his opinion, that the
averment of the falsehood was no more than a protestation or formal
plea of not guilty, on the part of the petitioner, and that, there
fore, it was not necessary to go into the proof, the House acqui
esced in his opinion.
Mr. Bouverie then moved, " That the House do now adjourn."
This motion was opposed by Mr. Mitford, who observed, that too
much attention could not possibly be paid to the allegations of the
petition, if they turned out to be true : if they were not true, the
petition, and the person who presented it, merited the severest cen
sure. The articles were full of the foulest criminal charges, and
Mr. Hastings was to be considered as a man who stood charged
with those crimes. If he was guilty, he wished him to fall by the
load of those crimes, and not by the weight of his accusers. Not
withstanding his profession, he had not lately been much acquainted
with the proceedings of criminal courts, but prosecutions of the
kind, he well knew, should be conducted so as to do honour to the
House ; and there were two things that ought to be strictly adhered
to by those who conducted them ; first, never to bring forward a
fact that was matter of calumny to the accused, or to enflame the
passions of those who were to decide as judges. The House would
recollect, that a committee of the whole House, sometimes a larger,
sometimes a smaller body, attended every day of the trial, to lend
their countenance and support to the managers. It behoved the
latter, therefore, to be extremely guarded in what they stated. If
they asserted a calumny, the lords could not act with the same
freedom that an ordinary court of justice, in such a case, could
exercise. Every advocate at a bar who dared to advance what
might affect the criminal's character, was amenable to the laws of
his country. The lords could only stop a manager if he went into
extraneous matter ; they could not commit him, nor could he be
punished. Mr. Hastings, therefore, very wisely, instead of appeal
ing to the justice of the lords, had made application to the candour
of the House of Commons, which alone could afford him redress.
If that House, therefore, suffered any thing to be done, which was
contrary to that delicacy which ought to be preserved, it degraded
itself and acted unjustly. It was extremely possible, that the right
honourable manager thought what he had said relevant ; but, from
his own explanation, it did not satisfy him: on the contrary, it

478 mr. Hastings's petition, complaining of [May i.
convinced him, that the original evidence was not cognizable in a
court of justice. Minutes of council, they were told, would be
read as evidence. They certainly were not evidence, nor could
they be admitted as such, The question now was, not what the
House could do, but whether the House should take the petition
into consideration at all. It was, in his opinion, the duty of the
House to examine whether the allegations were founded, and if so,
to ascertain afterwards what was to be done to afford the petitioner
adequate redress.
Mr. Fox conceived that they ought not only to use as much
delicacy in the present, as in any other prosecution, but even
much more ; and not one word should be uttered tending to
inflame the passions, if the honourable gentleman meant to
inflame them against reason. He admitted the justice of the
remark, in cases of life and death, but said it was not so in
misdemeanors; in the agitation of misdemeanors, it would
chiefly consist of much aggravation on the one side, and
much extenuation on the other. If he accused a man of mur
der, he should avoid every thing to inflame the passions ; it
was a trial of a fact ; the verdict, if proof was given of the
fact, was guilty, and death the known punishment. In con
ducting a trial for a misdemeanor by impeachment, the ma
nagers could not prosecute it like men, without adducing all
in their power to inflame the passions and prove the enormity
of the guilt. He thought it his duty to state that enormity
in the strongest manner, but he should abuse the trust reposed
in him by the House of Commons, if he said any thing which
he could not and did not mean to prove, and which he did
not, in his conscience, believe to be true. The truth of the
allegations was not now the question, but their relevancy.
He thought it a question in which the House should place an
extensive confidence in the managers. It was, indeed, in
that point in which they ought to repose the utmost confi
dence in them, as they were to judge what was relevant, and
what was not; and this was what made their situation diffi
cult ; but " difficult" was a poor word to express it. It was a
situation of uncommon difficulty. The House had appointed
them managers ; they had said, " You must adduce proofs, you
must collect evidence, you must arrange and bring it forward ;
we, who will not take the pains to do it ourselves, instruct and
authorize you to do it; but if we think you exceed your
powers, if we see you introduce matter apparently irrelevant,
before we have seen how you mean to apply it, and can judge
whether it is material to the cause or not, we will disclaim it,
and we will censure you." If any private man was to put
another under such disabilities, there was no one who could
be employed by any client whatever. They were bound not.

I789O WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE.

479

to use impossibilities, and yet impossibilities were expected at
their hands. The honourable gentleman had cut them up by
the roots. He had conjectured what their evidence was, and
then said it would not be admissible. Let the honourable
gentleman have the presumptive confidence in the House of
Lords, to give them credit so far as to suppose they would
take care that nothing was received as evidence but what
was admissible. Let the evidence go unprejudiced before the
House, and not be prejudged in that House before it was of
fered in Westminster-hall. Were they debating on the peti
tion only ? No, they were discussing the evidence of the
House of Lords. Mr. Fox said, he saw clearly it must ulti
mately come to this short question, " Were the managers, or
were they not, deserving of the confidence of that House ?"
If not, let the House appoint others. Those who uttered
calumnies of Mr. Hastings abused their trust ; and what did
those do, who were defaming the Commons of Great Britain
by making them parties to calumnies which they disclaimed?
The managers were in a strange situation, indeed ! The trial
of Mr. Hastings was necessary to be undertaken by those who
were acquainted with the subject; the managers had under
taken it, and when they were tracing him through all his
iniquities, they were to be charged with having done so merely
for the purpose of calumny, for the purpose of loading him
unnecessarily with new accusations ! He warned them that
they were establishing a principle that would tend to render
all trials by impeachment ineffectual, if, whenever the criminal
found himself pinched, he might cause a division among his
accusers, by making them accuse themselves. He had al
ways maintained, that if the managers abused their trust, they
ought to be severely censured ; but was it the business of the
House to be told by the prisoner that they had done so ?
Should they be taught by the prisoner, whether those who
had undertaken the prosecution were competent to the task
or not ? Was it likely that the Commons would be neglect
ful of their own honour ? They attended, as the honourable
gentleman had truly said, daily in different numbers in Westr
minster-hall; it was their duty to observe and censure, if
they saw occasion, but not to proceed on the charge of the
accused. The whole of the proceedings was contrary to com
mon sense and to precedent, and ruinous to public justice.
The petition stated many facts, but the only one relied on
was that relative to Nundcomar. Was the charge new ? On
the contrary, had not his right honourable friend stated it to
the whole house, with an effect never to be forgotten, last
year, when the decision of the House not to impeach Sir
Elijah Impey was recent? And were they now to be told, that

480 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May. 1.
<
the House of Commons were of a contrary opinion, and that
they had acquitted Sir Elijah Impey ? He denied the fact.
They had, by as small a majority as ever was known on a great
question, resolved not, , at that time, to impeach the chief
justice, but was* that an acquittal ? So far from it, Sir Elijah
was as liable to be impeached as ever, and the charge might
be renewed the next day. If he were asked his private opi
nion as to the death of Nundcomar, he should answer that he
thought it a murder, and what he would say in his private ca
pacity, he would say in that House, or in Westminster-hall.
It was his opinion, that Nundcomar was put to death for the
basest of purposes. Mr. Hastings, in his petition, had said,
bring forward the facts as charges. He said so, not because
he wished to have them brought forward, but because he
dreaded them. There never was a prisoner who called upon
his accusers to bring forward fresh charges against him. The
only proper answer to give him was, " We will bring them
forward when we think fit." Before the charges were summed
up, he had called for more, as if he, rather than the ma
nager, was the proper judge when it was right to bring them
forward. What, he asked, was the real injury done to Mr.
Hastings, when they had declared they would prove what they
had asserted ? If it were not proved, his conduct was clear,
and he would wait for proof; and if they did not bring proofs,
Mr. Hastings would contend that they were irrelevant charges.
If they failed, he might then say, ' Now it has come to the
proof, and it is not proved.' He complained of the managers
before he could shew any cause of complaint whatever ; he
felt himself pinched in that quarter to which the charge last
opened had reference, and he resorted to the stratagem of
accusing his accusers for the purpose of diverting the storm.
Did he wait till they brought forward proofs ? No, he pre
supposed a victory before an engagement. Was it not a well
known rule, that the failure of an argument was an advantage
to him against whom it was used ? It was impossible to sup
pose, that in such a prosecution the managers could proceed
without the protection of the House. If a complaint against
the managers could be brought properly, it must come from a
member of that House, who having been present at the time
the words were spoken, had taken them down, and could au
thenticate them. It would then come in a manner worthy to
be heard and to be acted upon : but when it came from Mr.
Hastings himself, it was justly an object of suspicion. His
right honourable friend did not stand alone in respect to this
complaint ; there was not one of the managers, had he stood
in the situation that the right honourable leader had done,
who would not have thought it necessary to have made

1 7K9'] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 48 I
use of the same allegations. There was no difference of
opinion, therefore, among those who had studied the cause.
The presumptions, therefore, were all in their favour, and the
proofs against Mr. Hastings. As long as they had an idea
that there was a possibility of answering the end of pub
lic justice, they would abide by the prosecution. They
had undertaken a difficult and dangerous task, and let
it not be said, that they had brought it on themselves,
because they had supplicated others of greater weight and
authority, who professed to be friends to the prosecution, to
assist them in the conduct of it, but they had refused. He
hoped the House would not put them into so aukward a
dilemma, and that those who would not assist, would at least
not obstruct. Let it be remembered, that there never was a
prosecution by impeachment before, in which the crown
lawyers were not the chief managers. There had always been
the attorney and solicitor general, the master of the rolls, or
some of the other crown lawyers whom he saw opposite to him.
If, therefore, these gentlemen would not assist, let them not
impede; let them give fair play to their ill-sorted arguments,
and if they had not time to aid, let them not find time to slur
their proceedings, and to degrade their characters. It had
been often said, when an opposition found fault with the
measures of government, that it was not the measures but
the men they objected to, and the reason was, they wished
to be in place themselves. He wished the same saying could
be applied in the present instance, and that the managers
could observe, " You do not wish to find fault with the mea
sures of the prosecutors, but to conduct the prosecution and
be the managers yourselves." This standing joke against
opposition he had always thought a miserable argument, and
that the reverse of it was more likely to be the fact. On the
present occasion, he wished the House would shew them how
they could act better as managers ; till then, they ought to
agree to give them their confidence and support, or put an end
to the prosecution at once. If the motion of adjournment
should be rejected, he hoped that they would proceed to discuss
the allegations, and call evidence to prove them, when he had
no doubt but they would turn out to have been falsely stated.
Before he sat down, he must once more put the House in
mind that Mr. Flastings had dared to come to that bar, read
a. defence, and after having taken credit to himself fbr the
shortness of time in which he had been obliged to prepare
it, had since deposed that the defence was not his, that he
never wrote one word of it, that it was the production of
his agent, and that he utterly disclaimed the whole. It was
already sufficiently established that Mr. Hastings and his agent
VOL. III. T J

482 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May i.
shewed a thorough contempt for all adherence to truth. He
declared that he would vote for the adjournment, because he
should hope that some time hence the whole of the proceed
ings would be reprobated and expunged. He passed
an encomium on the conduct of his right honourable
friend Mr. Burke, and said he had acted with great pro
priety throughout the business. He had given the House as
much satisfaction as was necessary, and feeling the indignity
of being called upon as a defendant, by the culprit whom he
had been directed by that House to prosecute, he had re
fused to do mere. He admired his right honourable friend's
conduct that day, in being absent, not less than his general
conduct. The whole was manly, consistent, and dignified.
The question being put, that the House do now adjourn, a di
vision took place. "tellers. Tellers.
v f Sir Gilbert Elliot 1 XT f Mr. Neville 7
Yeas JMr.M. A. Taylor j 97— Now |Mr> gi]nmer J '57-
So it passed in the negative. It was next moved, " That Mr.
Gurney, one of the short-hand writers of the notes taken at the
trial of Warren Hastings, Esq. in Westminster-hall, be now called
in." Sir James Johnstone called upon the Chair to know if there
were any precedents for the proceeding proposed. The Speaker
having answered, that he did not conceive it fell within the scope
of his duty to state, whether there were any precedents or not,
Mr. Fox said, he thought the question extremely proper,
and that if there were no precedents to go by, they
ought to proceed with great caution in the establishment of
one which might endanger their privileges. He owned he did
not admire the examination of the short-hand writer ; it was,
he believed, the first instance of such a witness being examined,
to prove words spoken by a member of that House in his
senatorial capacity. The common evidence was that of a
member who took down the words at the time, and could
state, in his place, that he was present when Mr. Burke said
so and so.' If it once was admitted, that words uttered
by a member were to be selected for censure, on the com
plaint of a person who was not a member, and that a third
person, who was also not a member, nor connected with
that House, was to give evidence of those words, it would be
destructive of the privileges of the House, and might lead to
dangerous consequences. V
Mr. Adam urged the propriety of withdrawing the motion, and
moving for a, committee to examine precedents. Mr. Pitt remarked,
ii

I/oy.j WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 483
that it was only with respect to time that, in his opinion, the ques
tion could be regarded as important, and that as to the words
respecting Nundcomar, those words had been confessed to have
been spoken by Mr. Burke himself, and therefore they were relieved
from any anxiety respecting the truth of the allegation.
Mr. Fox said, that he felt no hesitation in positively assert
ing that his right honourable friend had never admitted that
he had spoken the words respecting Nundcomar, as they were
set forth in the petition ; and it was extremely material to
mark the difference, because there might be members of that
House who might think his right honourable friend highly
blameable if he had said what the petition stated, and not
blameable if he only said what he declared he had said.
Whether his right honourable friend had spoken the words
as he conceived him to have spoken them, or as the petition
set forth, in either case they afforded ground for the declaration
of the right honourable gentleman's argument, but that was
the right honourable gentleman's private opinion only. The
right honourable gentleman had declared he should be ready
to meet the question, when it came before him ; he declared,
on his part, that he should be ready to meet it likewise, and
to maintain that it might be necessary, in the prosecution
of a small crime, to prove it by alledging a greater, and
that point, when proper, he would contest with the right
honourable gentleman, and he was sure he should have all
the law on his side. With regard to Mr. Hastings complain
ing of the words, as words conveying a calumny, he would
ever labour under some calumny, if the trial proceeded.
With respect to the delay which appointing a committee to
search for precedents would occasion, he was sorry for it; but
let it be remembered, that this was a matter of great im
portance, and the sooner it was gone through the better.
All the delay that had happened he lamented ; but it had
arisen from various extraordinary causes. The great events
of this year had nearly swept away every thing else from
memory. He, for one, thought Mr. Hastings's trial a pro
ceeding in which the character of the country was concerned.
The eyes of all Europe were upon them, and it was a matter
which depended not on a division one day, or on a majority
another ; but on the consistency, steadiness, and honour of the
Commons of England.
The previous question was then put, and the motion for calling
in Mr. Gurney being negatived, Mr. Adam moved, " That a com
mittee be appointed to inspect precedents, and to report to the
House what evidence has been received, by the House, respecting
any complaint of expressions or words used on the trial of any'
112

484 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May 4^
impeachment, by any members of this House employed to manage
such impeachment." This motion was carried by a majority of

ioz to 17.

May 4.

The said committee reported, that there were no precedents of
any complaint of words spoken by managers in Westminster-hali:
to be found. The managers again urged their objections to the
examination of any short-hand writer ; but the favourers of the
petition, insisting upon the duty of the House to govern itself in
such cases by what should appear most likely to promote the ends
of substantial justice, prevailed ; and, after a division of 1 15 to 69,
Mr. Gurney, the short-hand writer, was called in, and examined.
The next question was, whether all the particulars complained of
by the petitioner should be inquired into, or whether the House
might select what part they pleased. Mr. Pitt and others were
of opinion, that the House ought to pay no attention to the words
said to have been spoken in the former year, as the complaint had
been so long deferred ; and they should confine themselves to the
words relative to Nundcomar. This was also objected to by the
managers, as an arbitrary proceeding, but finally agreed to by the
House. Another debate then took place upon the extent of the
examination, as restricted to the case of Nundcomar. The ma
nagers contended that the whole of that part of Mr. Burke's
speech ought to be produced, as necessary to elucidate the nature
of the words complained of ; the other side were of opinion, that
it was only necessary to ask the witness if Mr. Burke had made use
of those express words. After much altercation, in which Mr.
Fox complained in strong and pointed terms of the indignity and
injustice with which the managers were treated, it was agreed that
some part of the speech preceding the words should be read;
which being done, and the offensive words ascertained, the Marquis
of Graham rose, and moved, " That no direction or authority was
given by this House to the committee appointed to manage the
impeachment against Warren Hastings, Esq. to make any charge
or allegation against the said Warren Hastings, Esq. respecting the
condemnation or execution of Nundcomar." Mr. Sheridan asked
if that was the only measure intended to be brought forward, or
whether it was to be followed up by any other resolution ? The
Marquis of Graham answered, that at present he knew not of any
other intended resolution.
Mr. Fox observed, that, granting this to be the case, he
saw no objection to it, and should not trouble the House with
any arguments against it, since subsequently to the passing of
the motion it would prove fully competent for his right ho
nourable friend (Mr. Burke) or any other manager, to repeat
the same expressions. Fie begged to have it understood, that
the reason why he acquiesced in the motion was, because it

1789-] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 485
implied no censure on his right honourable friend, and be
cause he could not take this declaration of the House for any
proof that it was wrong, according to the opinion of the
House, in his right honourable friend to have introduced the
words relative to the murder of Nundcomar. There was not
one word in the resolution which implied that his right ho
nourable friend ought not to have made the charge in the way
he did. Mr. Fox, entering into a distinction between a mur
der technically so called, and a murder morally and substan
tially considered, desired to recal to the minds of gentlemen,
that last year an honourable baronet (Sir Gilbert Elliot)
brought forward the business of Sir Elijah Impey, and ac
cused him of a legal murder. He had himself, Mr. Fox de
clared, said it after that honourable baronet, and neither of
them met with any censure. And why? Because neither of
them talked of a murder in the technical sense of the word,
but as a misdemeanor. His right honourable friend brought
no charge of murder, as a direct charge of murder, but in the
course of opening another charge, he introduced the imputa
tion, in order to prove, that if Nundcomar's evidence was
attempted to be discredited, he should bring forward facts
which would shew, that those who attempted to discredit
Nundcomar, had acted basely, and deserved discredit them
selves. Adverting to what had fallen from the attorney-gene
ral on the preceding Friday, he observed, that the honoura
ble and learned member had made a declaration relative to
the eyes of all Europe being upon us, and that a stain had
been cast on the criminal justice of the country. It would
be disgraceful to the honourable and learned gentleman's cha
racter, if, after such a declaration, he did not come forward
with a motion to remove the managers that night. The right
honourable the chancellor of the exchequer had been pleased
to talk of his good sense and good temper. He was always
proud of that right honourable gentleman's praise ; but he
really knew not what it meant. If it meant that the present
motion was an indirect censure upon the managers, and that
it was intended to restrain the managers from carrying on the
prosecution in the manner which, in their judgment, was
most likely to insure success, then it must put an end to the
trial. If they were to look upon it as a declaration that they
were to go on with the trial, but that it was as much as to say,
" Take heed, gentlemen, you speak at your peril, and if you
allude to the execution of Nundcomar, we will censure you ;"
if it meant that, he must say, that the present managers were
not men for such treatment. They considered themselves as
warranted in proceeding according to the best -of their judg
ments, always subject to the opinion of that House. They
11 3

486 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May 4.
had flattered themselves, that there was some feeling and ge
nerosity in the House ; they had flattered themselves that they
had the confidence of the House ; they had flattered them
selves that if they did not deserve the confidence of the House,
they should not be suffered to stand in the despicable situation
of having the prosecution in their hands, without that confi
dence. If they did not merit it, he trusted they should be
fairly and distinctly told so. Let gentlemen recollect that the
House was composed of three different descriptions of persons ;
of the warm and zealous friends of the prosecution, of the
enemies of the prosecution, and of those who professed to be
friends of the prosecution, but who, lending their weight to
the enemies of the prosecution, made their scale preponderate.
Would not this latter fairly shew that the judges were not the
friends but the enemies of the prosecution ; and while this
was so, it must be evident that the enemies to the prosecution
must prevail. In respect to the future progress of the prose
cution, the managers must act to the best of their judgment.
Was the motion meant as a censure, or was it not ? Let gen
tlemen speak out fairly. If it was, they should know what
conduct they ought to follow. He knew the opinion of the
right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer on the charge
relative to Cheyt Sing, to be different from his ; notwith
standing which he had delivered his own opinion at the bar
of the House of Lords, and not that of the right honourable
gentleman. If in summing up the present charge, he should
feel it proper to say, that the execution of Nundcomar ap
peared to him to be a murder, he would contend farther, that
in accusing a man of one misdemeanor, he might support it
by another. Mr. Fox illustrated this point, by the case of a
captain of a ship, against whom murder was charged, on ac
count of his having thrown bis slaves overboard, in order, by
that charge, to defeat the owners' claim of insurance. He
declared that he saw no principle of law, reason, or justice,
why he should not, in support of one charge, call in the aid of
another, to make it strong and complete. If it should fall in
his way to mention the execution of Nundcomar, he must
mention it as one which involved in it morally the crime of
murder. He declared openly and plainly what he conceived
to be his duty ; and as to the general effect of what had passed
on the subject, it remained neither for the right honourable
gentleman nor him to say. He declared that he thought the
proceedings of the last few days infinitely disgraceful to that
House, and infinitely dangerous to every future impeachment,
and though it might be late to, move any thing then, yet
should he ever have a prospect of a majority, he would at
tempt to expunge from the journals all the proceedings on the

1789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE.
subject. Those who had examined the constitution of the
country with a political eye, would agree that more danger
to the privileges of the House had occurred within these few
days than for a century past ; because, though every part of
our constitution tended to give it strength and cohesion, there
were certain corner stones, main props, and timbers which
were essential to its longevity and existence. The privileges
of parliament, and the inquisitorial powers of that House
were of this description, and they would be materially affected
by the present proceedings.
Mr. Sheridan said that he certainly had declared in Westminster-
hall, that he thought the execution of Nundcomar a foul murder.
Would any gentleman who had read the trial declare that he was
conscientiously convinced that he ought to have been executed ?
If the House commanded him not to allude to the transactions in
question, he should certainly pay obedience : but if it did not, he
should think that he deserted his duty, if he omitted to charge
Nundcomar's execution as a murder. Mr. Windham declared that
his right honourable friend was strictly authorized in what he did.
If it were wrong, the House of Lords had not fulfilled their duty.
And should they presume they had not ? He said that the ma
nagers were put into the most degrading situation in the world,
but that no person was disgraced by any circumstance which did
not arise out of his own conduct ; and their conduct, he trusted,
was such, that the House might rain and thunder its menaces,
whilst they would not only bear the fury of the storm, but burst
forth from it even with augmented splendor. Mr. Pitt begged
leave, in answer to the insinuations of three honourable gentlemen,
whether they ought not to be afraid of voting the question, lest it
should be made a pretext for quitting the prosecution of justice,
to assure them that he, for one, should be of opinion that no such
pretext could be taken. Mr. Fox, he said, had talked of his dic
tating what should and what should not be their conduct; he
should hold himself guilty of strong presumption indeed if he were
to dictate to the House ; but he never would shrink from giving
his opinion, as a member of parliament, upon every subject which
came under discussion in that House; and as the honourable gen
tlemen were so anxious about the honour of the House, he advised
them to take care of their own honour, and he and those who
acted with him, would on their part, prove at least equally cau
tious of the preservation of theirs.
Mr. Fox answered, that he felt himself justified in still per
sisting to declare that he would call Nundcomar's execution a
murder, unless that House told him to the contrary, and that
the managers ought to be enabled to understand explicitly what
the motion meant. The right honourable gentleman had said
he would not shrink from delivering his opinion. He knew
not how the right honourable gentleman might act, but no
11 4

488 MR. HASTINGS'S PETITION, COMPLAINING OF [May 4,
tyrant ever sent men to a more arduous and perilous service
than that which the managers were sent upon. There never
were such duplicity and treachery as the conduct pursued that
day. They meant to cast a slur on the proceedings of the
managers, and were afraid to avow the violent injustice of
such an intention.
The Marquis of Graham said, that he had wished not to act
otherwise than delicately towards the managers, but the debate had
changed the face of things, and since they insinuated that they
could not go on without getting themselves into a considerable
scrape, because the motion did not condemn the words already
spoken, he would move an amendment in order to remove that
objection. The Marquis then added to the motion these words,
" And that the words spoken by the right honourable Edmund
Burke, one of the said managers, viz. 'he (meaning Warren Has-
' tings, Esq.) murdered that man, (meaning Nundcomar) by the
' hands of Sir Elijah Impey,'"ought not to have been spoken." Co
lonel Phipps seconded the motion. With regard to the confidence
of that House, the managers had possessed, and would be honoured
with it, unless they forfeited it by acting in a very absurd man
ner ; but they certainly had been indulged by the House to so
great a degree that it appeared to him that they were in danger of
becoming spoilt children, and doing mischief if they were not
checked in time.
Mr. Fox rose to move an amendment, by adding at the
end thereof the following; words : " Although in the charge
exhibited by the Commons of Great Britain, upon which the
House voted the impeachment, there are the following words,
viz. ' That the evidence of this man, (meaning Nundcomar)
' not having been entered into at the time when it might and
' ought to have been done, by the said Warren Hastings, re-
' mains justly in force against him, and is not abated by the
' capital punishment of the said Nundcomar, but rather con-
' firmed by the time and circumstances in which the accuser
' of the said Warren Hastings suffered death,' and to which
charge the said Warren Hastings at the bar of this House,
made the following answer, viz. ' To the malicious parts of
' this charge, which is the condemnation of Nundcomar for a
' forgery, I do declare, in the most solemn and unreserved
* manner, that I had no concern either directly or indirectly,
* in the apprehending, prosecuting, or execution of Nundco-
' mar :' and although the managers who have been appointed
by the House to arrange the evidence and enforce the charges
against the said Warren Hastings, are of opinion that the
aforesaid declarations, used by the said right honourable Ed
mund Burke, were essentially necessary to the support of one

I789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 489
of the principal charges voted by this House." — These
amendments having been read from the Chair, Mr. Fox re
marked, that the only person on the other side the House
who had delivered his sentiments plainly and without the least
reserve, was the honourable gentleman who spoke last; and
he ventured openly to declare that the conduct of the ma
nagers had been absurd and unjust. With what face, Mr.
Fox said, could they go into Westminster-hall and carry on
the trial, when they must know that the court would have
heard that they were the most unjust and absurd men the
Flouse of Commons could select out of their whole body to
conduct the proceedings? Undoubtedly, in the articles of
impeachment the murder of Nundcomar was omitted, be
cause it was not so much an object of charge, as a proof of
charge. Mr. Hastings had answered it himself, therefore, he
had thought it material to state, that if the House of Com
mons censured a manager, he had the applause of every man
engaged in the same cause. With regard to the first motion,
he did not object to it, because it implied no censure ; he ob
jected to the present, because it did imply a censure. This
was a most extraordinary proceeding. Instead of an instruc
tion to the managers how to act in future, which ought to
have been voted, the House were called on to vote a censure
for what was passed. Because, as was at first declared, no
censure was to be passed, the noble marquis had moved a
censure. They meant at first to carry a courtly concealed
censure." Now they were about to vote a direct censure. It
shewed the spirit of their proceedings, and that they chose to
act with the duplicity with which they were charged. Such
conduct in the two honourable gentlemen who moved and
seconded the motions, was in the highest degree scandalous
and indecent.
Here Mr. Fox was called to order by Colonel Phipps, who
declared he would not be told that he acted -in that House with
duplicity and treachery, nor that his conduct was in the highest de
gree indecent and scandalous. Such language ought not to be used
within those walls, and would not be tolerated between gentle
men, nor perhaps ventured to be spoken in another place. The
cry of order was general from the opposition side. Mr. Fox said,
he held the honourable gentleman's words in the utmost contempt.
Mr. Francis said, in the hearing of the Chair, that the honour
able gentleman had thrown out a menace, Mr. Pitt moved, " That
strangers should withdraw." The gallery being accordingly cleared,
Mr. Pitt supported the motion of the Marquis of Graham in a long
speech. In reply to which,
Mr. Fox declared, that with respect to one point which re
lated to what he had said on a former occasion, the right

49° MR. HASTINGS'S PETITION, COMPLAINING OF [May 4.
honourable gentleman had most cruelly perverted the mean
ing of his remark. Mr. Hastings in his petition complained
of certain things not being brought to proof, and had prayed
the House that they might be formed into specific charges.
These, Mr. Fox said, related to Deby Sing, and he was satis
fied, in his own mind, that Mr. Hastings desired that the
charges might be specified, not with any view that they should
be so done, but because he dreaded their specification, and
thought the best way to prevent it was to appear desirous
to have them specified. He had, in a former speech, stated,
that the words relative to Nundcomar were relevant to the
charge of corruption. The right Honourable gentleman de
nied it; and because he conceived that the mentioning of
Nundcomar's execution was irrelevant to the charge, he took
it for granted that every man's mind was as satisfied as his
own, and he argued it ac cordingly ; but when he argued
that opinion, the right honourable gentleman was prejudging
the Commons at the bar of the House of Lords, because that
was matter of evidence, on the admissibility of which the Lords
were to determine. Another mistake of the right honourable
gentleman was, his conceiving that if the business was not
in the charge, it was forbidden by the House of Com
mons. By the same reason, the right honourable gentle
man might imagine that every tittle of evidence was irrele
vant, because the evidence made no part of the instruction
of that House. Mr. Fox drew the distinction between a
charge, as originally submitted to the House for them to vote,
and the articles of impeachment carried up to the House
of Lords to be proved. The first was loosely drawn, and
contained not only the facts alledged, but the evidence ;
whereas the articles contained nothing but the facts, without
a tittle of the evidence; and that mode of proceeding, he de
clared, he had learnt to be the proper one, from the first law
authorities in that House. The right honourable gentleman
had contended, that it would be impossible for them to prove
the charge of Mr. Hastings having a share in the murder of
Nundcomar, at the bar of the House of Lords. That was a
business for the House of Lords to determine, and not for
them. As to the arguments that a greater crime could not
be adduced, in support of a charge for a less, these, he ob
served, were now all given up ; the whole, therefore, rested
on the plausible inference that Mr. Hastings, or any one who
received an injury, and could not obtain redress any where
else, might receive it from the hands of that House. Mr.
Fox undertook to prove that this was not the fact, and that
Mr. Hastings had his remedy elsewhere, either by appealing
to the House of Lords, or by his action at law against his
right honourable friend, (Mr. Burke,) and nothing, he said,

I789.] WORDS SPOKEN BY MR. BURKE. 49 1
could prevent this latter remedy, but either the privileges of
the House of Lords, or the privileges of the House of Com
mons. He could not conceive that the privileges of the House
of Lords extended to the protection of the right honourable
manager, speaking at their bar, any more than to a counsel
for words delivered at their bar. If it was the privileges of
the House of Commons, it must be, that they could not re
ceive accounts of words spoken by one of their own members
from any but their own members. And that he took to be
the true state of the fact; because it would be equally disorderly
to refer to the strangers wi the gallery, and to call upon any
person who happened t* ne there during a debate, and was
known to be an excellent note-taker for a newspaper and to
have an extraordinary correct memory, to prove what Mr.
Fox said on his legs, as to admit the evidence of a stranger
to prove to that House what Mr. Burke said in Westminster
Hall. If words which were authentic had been spoken at the
bar of a court of justice, and had not been taken notice of by
the court, it was a fair inference that the court did not con
sider them to be improper, but if any parliamentary proceed
ing was to be had upon them, no one ought to be heard upon
the subject, but a member of the House. The right honour
able gentleman, he observed, had asked whether the managers
expected the House to repose in them a complete and even
blind confidence, and to set them free from every species of
control ? Undoubtedly not ; but the right honourable gentle
man might argue as he pleased concerning the subject of con
fidence. What would the public think, when they found the
managers deprived of the confidence of that House ? With re
gard to the question of corruption, he conceived that the ma
nagers had the orders of that House to act as they had acted ;
and if they were to exercise their own arguments on what
could prove or aggravate the facts, they must proceed to do
as appeared to them most likely to obtain success. The right
honourable gentleman had contended, that they were not to
argue ; that because the matter was not taken notice of last
year, they were to consider that omission as a precedent ; but
the fact was, that it was attended to last year, and when his
honourable friend near him had said, " no authority, how
ever high, should prevent his saying that Nundcomar's exe
cution was a murder," there was the fullest and the most at
tentive House of Commons present that ever went into West
minster-hall, and yet no notice whatever was taken of his ho
nourable friend's declaration at the time. He supposed, in
the Benares charge, when the defence came to be made, there
would be a reply also to that defence, in which it might be
necessary to take notice again of some facts and allegations of
which Mr. Hastings might complain to that House. Then

492 mr. hastings's petition, complaining of [May 4.
the right honourable gentleman would say, " You last year
exceeded your instructions." Instructions ! the managers
had no instructions," but that of consulting their own judg
ments. Without meaning, therefore, to give personal offence
to any gentleman, he must still say, that the conduct of the
House on that occasion was characterized by duplicity and
treachery ; they had entrapped the managers into this degrad
ing situation ; for, were they of their own chusing, of their own
appointing ? No ! they were chosen and appointed managers
by the House of Commons. Suppose the case in private life.
He had an advocate to plead his » uuse; he did so and so;
suppose he was displeased with that .•Ivocate's conduct; sup
pose he did not approve of what he said in pleading his cause;
what would he or any man do in such .-. case? Would he
not say, naturally, he would have another advocate ? He
could not censure, because his advocate had acted to the best
of his judgment. So that House had no right to censure the
managers for an error in judgment. They gave them no
compass to steer with, no line by which to regulate their con
duct. That House, then, had a right to dismiss them, but
nothing more. If the public conceived that they ought still
to go on with the prosecution, and that the confidence of that
House was not withdrawn from them, they would still persist
in it, while they had a prospect of carrying it on with effect.
He remembered the remark of the right honourable gentleman,
that if the Irish propositions did not pass, he could not be an
useful servant to the public. He also feared, if the motion
passed, he could not be an useful servant to the public. To
retain a situation, when the person retaining it knew that he
could not hold it to any purpose, was neither honest nor ho
nourable. And for that House to say, " Go on with the pro
secution, though we will not suffer you to prosecute it with
effect," was in words to speak for the prosecution, in action
to go against it. If his right honourable friend had con
ducted himself improperly in a situation in which he acted for
others, as far as his judgment required, the fault lay with the
employer, and not with the employed. His right honourable
friend had done justice to God and man, and he deserved no
censure.' Mr Fox's amendment was negatived without a division. The
House then divided on the Marquis of Graham's motion,
Tellers. Tellers.
Sor it was resolved in the affirmative. Mr. Bouverie, as soon as the
House was resumed, moved " That the thanks of this House be

1 789-J words spoken by mr. burke. 493
given to the right honourable Edmund Burke, and the rest of thema-
nagers, for their exertions and assiduity in the prosecution of the
impeachment against Warren Hastings, Esq., and that they be de
sired to persevere in the same." The master of the rolls con
sidered the motion as not merely premature, but extremely im
proper, at that moment, just as the House had voted a censure up
on one of the honourable managers ; and therefore, without mean
ing any personal incivility to any of those honourable gentlemen,
he should take the liberty of moving the previous question on the
honourable gentleman's motion. This motion was agreed to. In
consequence of the preceding votes some difference of opinion is
said to have arisen in the committee of managers, relative to their
continuance in that situation. It was, however, resolved to pro
ceed ; and accordingly, the ^ext day of trial, Mr. Burke began his
speech by commenting or ' ie relative situations of Jiimself and of
the prisoner at the bar, am on the decision of the Commons with
respect to their proce 'ings. It was his duty, he observed, as a
manager on the part '. the Commons to illustrate and enforce, by
every proper means; "the guilt of Mr. Hastings. He had, in the
pursuit of justice, laboured to the best of his power and judgment ;
but in consequence of a recent proceeding of those by whom he had
been delegated, he was to inform their lordships that certain ex
pressions of his, charging Mr. Hastings with the murder of Nund
comar, through the agency of Sir Elijah Impey, had been disavow
ed by the Commons as unauthorised by them. He did not meam
to arraign the justice of this decision — he would not even com
plain that it wore not the complexion of support to the managers
whom they had appointed. The decision went of course to narrow
the line of their proceeding, yet should not restrain their efforts to
use their remaining powers with the utmost vigour and effect. But
still some explanation was due from him to their lordships, to mem
bers of the House of Commons, and to so respectable an auditory.
He had undoubtedly charged Mr.. Hastings with the destruction of
a witness whose evidence was necessary to the present charge ;
and which the prisoner had, of course, endeavoured to invalidate.
In stating this, however, he had said no more that what he really
believed, and what, if necessary, he trusted he should be able to
prove. He had used the word murder, not, perhaps, in the strictly
legal, but in its moral and popular sense, to denote a crime,
which stood, according to his conception, on the same line of
enormity, but which the poverty of language did not afford him,
another word to express.

end of the third volume.

Strahan and Preston,
Printers-Street, London.